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The problem of England and Wales

Posted on October 14, 2019 by

As we write this, in between bouts of weeping with exhausted misery, frustration and rage, Her Majesty’s Opposition’s interminable will-they-won’t-they game of attempting – maybe, one day, perhaps – to bring down the government and force a new election leading to a new EU referendum continues.

And as the SNP in particular devotes huge amounts of energy to trying to stop Brexit, against the wishes of its own voters, we wondered how the public not just in Scotland but in the two constituent nations of the UK that voted Leave felt about that.

Uh-oh.

The first finding wasn’t exactly news, but still marked a development.

Numerous polls have previously found that English voters are willing to offload the rest of the UK in the name of Brexit, but until now the margin had been fairly close. Now, however, England is running out of patience. By a resounding margin of 55-36, English voters now prioritise getting out of Europe over hanging onto their Celtic cousins.

(In Scotland, meanwhile, the vote was close to a three-way split between getting out of the EU, staying in the UK, or doing neither.)

Unsurprisingly the vast majority of Leavers put Brexit first. But more soberingly, even among Remain voters a substantial 28% would rather just get Brexit over and done with once and for all than worry about hanging onto Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – and another 16% of Remainers (or 12% of the ones in England alone) don’t want to keep the UK together at all.

Strikingly, even Scottish Tories, albeit narrowly, wanted Brexit done more than they wanted the United Kingdom preserved. We didn’t see that one coming.

But readers, that’s not even scratching the surface of this giant mess.

Because for all their demands for a second referendum, neither Labour nor the SNP even know what they’d want on the ballot paper yet. And whatever they chose should the situation arise it’d leave a lot of people angry.

Of the four options currently under debate – Remain, no-deal, Theresa May’s deal (or variant thereof) or a notional new deal negotiated by a Labour government, at least a quarter of people want any given option included in a new referendum.

That would either produce an impossible shambles of a four-way vote, or a situation where at least 15 million people had been disenfranchised before the referendum even happened by being denied an option they wanted to vote for. But it gets worse.

That’s because less than half of respondents wanted Remain to be on the ballot paper at all, and less than half wanted no-deal as an option.

So by far the most popular options on each side are BOTH supported by less than half of the population – and remember, that’s not “Which one would you vote for?”, that’s just “Which one would you want to be offered to people on the ballot paper?”

Only 19% of Leave voters thought that putting any sort of Remain option on the table was legitimate, presumably wanting a choice only between a deal and no-deal. Even more bizarrely, 22% of Remain voters didn’t want Remain to be an option, and of the three deal options, the most popular with Remainers was the one that nobody knows anything about because it doesn’t even exist yet.

Not mad enough for you yet? Then let’s throw in the fact that Great Britain as a whole – and both England and Wales individually – by a clear margin doesn’t want another referendum at all, and despite 62% of them voting Remain, only half of Scots do.

And those figures include almost a quarter of all Remain voters.

Why is there so little enthusiasm for a new referendum? Maybe because – perhaps understandably – barely a quarter of respondents believe that the result of a new referendum would be respected by Parliament.

They’re heavily out numbered by the 43% who don’t believe it would be, and 30% who simply don’t have a clue.

Just 41% of people who would vote Remain were there to be another referendum, and a truly shocking 17% of Leavers, had any faith in their elected representatives to enact their wishes at the second time of asking, whatever they were.

At this point, readers, we’re kind of relieved that out of good taste we hadn’t added a question about whether all politicians ought to be strung up from lamp-posts or fed to wolves immediately. We suspect the numbers would have been overwhelming.

But the findings of this poll are nevertheless an astonishing indictment of every one of the UK’s 650 MPs. They’re trying to force a second vote on the people of the UK that they don’t want, whose options alone would be unknown, controversial and divisive, and which only a minority of voters believe would be respected anyway.

We need a new word for how screwed UK politics is, folks. But we can say one thing with confidence – if politicians bring about a new EU referendum, they better not be expecting to be thanked at the ballot box for it.

The ramifications of that, for Scotland in particular, shouldn’t need to be spelled out.

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    1. 14 10 19 18:56

      The problem of England and Wales | speymouth

    130 to “The problem of England and Wales”

    1. Gary Porter says:

      Just wondering if the remainers who now want out the EU were being honest about how they voted.

    2. Robert Louis says:

      Summary:

      Let England have its brexit. That is what it wants. Just make sure Scotland is NOT part of it.

    3. Joe says:

      There is no kind of Brexit that doesnt spell the end of the EU. If they punish the UK with poor trade deals then the upcoming recession in Germany will be made much worse, for which the Eurozone does not have the tools left to fully mitigate. If they do give a decent trade deal to a non EU country then why would any country see a point in the entire project. Full stip

    4. Auld Rock says:

      I’ve asked this before but don’t seem to have seen an answer. How are the participants in the survey selected? As I’m sure you are aware ‘selection’ is a classic method of skewing and manipulating results

    5. ghostly606 says:

      I voted Remain. I am a Remainer. And yet I wouldn’t want it on the ballot paper of another referendum as otherwise would damage the chance of a successful indyref2 campaign from being respected.

    6. Mist001 says:

      Even though I now live in France and knowing full well that it would be detrimental to myself, I voted Brexit, secure in the knowledge that it would make it far easier for Scotland to gain its independence.

      Never in a million years could I have imagined that the SNP would be going full out to prevent Brexit knowing full well that it would be detrimental to the cause of Independence.

      I wish the SNP would just wash their hands of the whole affair and leave Englandandwales to get on with it.

      We have more pressing matters to attend to.

    7. Macbeda says:

      Complete clusterfuck imo.

    8. Jim Lynch says:

      How to go about this?

      There’s no’ enough wolves to go round.
      Brexit is going to cause so much misery and hardship for the poorer people we must stop it now.

      I am reminded about the sinners who found themselves in Hell, and cried out “Lord, Lord, we didna ken” – and the Lord looked down in his wisdom and mercy and replied “Weel, you ken noo!”

    9. Gordon Bain says:

      For what it’s worth the French people I speak to here in France can’t wait to see the back of Angleterre. I don’t know what it’s going to take to finally Scots wake up and smell the tea.

    10. Proud Cybernat says:

      If England doesn’t get its Brexshit, it will not end well for anywhere or anyone in these islands.

    11. Lenny Hartley says:

      Auld rock, for Panelbase you sign up to take part in surveys/polls, only a small number of the polls/surveys are about Politics, i think by your question you think that this poll is not representative of peoples views. There is a +/- 3% margin of error if 1000 people asked. Despite what some people claim Opinion Polls get it right more often than not, only on very few occasions do they get it wrong.

    12. dadsarmy says:

      It’s not clear about the base – is it 1,003 polled in Scotland, as implied by the third table, and 1,010 from England / Wales by subtraction from 2,013?

    13. callmedave says:

      The voice of reason…Prof Curtis just appeared to enlighten us all on. The Q’s speech:

      Much about reiterating to the public that Boris is going to spend money not so much about policy.

      Leavers keen to have a GE and Brexit after any deal because they feel they would win.
      ————————————————————–

      Seems about right!
      Scotland to the lifeboats.
      I think the SS UK is travelling elsewhere no matter what.

    14. Corrado Mella says:

      Politics in the UK is a total mess because there is NO UK.

      The glue that artificially held people together is gone in 2008, with the almighty crash of the consumerist society exposing the fragility of the system.
      The easy credit psychobubble popped, leaving many in dire straits and showing how poor, unkind and unfit the UK really is.

      People don’t know who to follow because there are NO LEADERS.

      It’s the result of a century of egalitarian mediocrity, where exceptional people were hobbled and held back not to upset the average Colin and Sandra.
      We’re steered by our lesser.

      I’m not advocating for an overlord or extreme meritocracy, but alas we’re at opposite side of the range entirely.

      It’s not working.

    15. Cod says:

      “Only 19% of Leave voters thought that putting any sort of Remain option on the table was legitimate, presumably wanting a choice only between a deal and no-deal.”

      Technically, that is the most legitimate option of any new referendum on membership of the EU since, regardless of the split of individual countries within the UK, the result of the UK overall vote was to leave the EU.

      And I say that as an independence supporting Scot who voted to remain in the EU.

      I’m really hoping that the SNP, knowing that they’re not going to get a Section 30 at any point, have a plan to challenge the refusal, or need for one, in court. I’ve said it before, but the idea that a party which contains some really good legal minds doesn’t have a plan to do such would be extremely disheartening.

    16. Doug says:

      Scotland must be more forthright in pissing off England. The british nationalist media will never treat Scotland fairly so let’s get that britnat media to increase its shrill anti-Scottish propaganda – even more than it does already.

    17. Sandy says:

      After watching conference today, switched to HoC. Blackford in the chamber giving a severe talking to to Boris & his co-horts after the royal conservative party election speech.
      Couldn’t help noticing the chappie Kerr, supposedly MP for “conclave” of Stirling jumping up & down in a demented manner. Had somebody put a whoopee under his backside of had his piles come out? Whatever it was, it was somewhat amusing to watch when even with HoC protocol, he was roundly ignored.
      What a significant waste of money for a greatly insignificant character.

    18. ahundredthidiot says:

      …….where’s ma nikes!

    19. tartanfever says:

      People have forgotten that this is only the beginning.

      Brexit is only the start, the UK can expect at least another 5 – 8 years of trade negotiations with the EU in which time we will watch the economy tank. Only then will the masses of England and Wales finally wake up and realise the hole they’ve dug for themselves. And it will all be too late.

      And remember, at present as EU members we are treated as such – as paid up ‘club’ members. Once we leave and become a ‘third country’ the gloves are off.

      Even if Independence and re-joining the EU in some form takes 4 years – it will still be quicker than UK trade negotiations – remember that when the unionists start harping on about it.

    20. Cod says:

      @Mist001 5.18pm

      “Never in a million years could I have imagined that the SNP would be going full out to prevent Brexit”

      In the Scottish parliament election 2016 SNP got 46.5% of the vote
      In the Westminster election 2017 SNP got 36.9% of the Scottish vote
      Voted to Remain in the EU 2016 in Scotland 62%

      So the SNP have to represent not only the 46.5% who voted for them in Scottish Parliamentary elections, but the 53.5% who did not.

      They also have to represent the 63.1% of the Scottish voters who did not vote for them in the Westminster elections .

      The above two are because they are the Scottish Government, the government of all Scots, not just those who voted for them, and those who voted for them represent an overall minority of voters (even though they won a majority in the Scottish Parliament and got most of the Scottish seats in the Westminster elections).

      They also have to represent the 62% of voters in Scotland who voted to Remain – a larger number than the figure for SNP voters

      The only way they can do the above is to try their hardest to prevent an EU exit. The alternative is that you condone a government which represents under half of the country’s voters. I don’t know about anyone else, but I tend to call those sort of Governments Tories.

    21. tartanfever says:

      Cod at 6.11

      ‘They also have to represent the 63.1% of the Scottish voters who did not vote for them in the Westminster elections .’

      Don’t be silly – these people voted Labour, Lib Dem and Tory – there are plenty of those MP’s to represent them in Parliament. It’s not up to the SNP to do so. MP’s represent their constituents, not countries.

    22. Bob Mack says:

      @Cod,

      I take your point. We p!ay by the rules. The problem however is thzt the “other” government are sitting with a minority and unelected PM, but are laying down the rules for everybody and indeed breaking them. They are going to be re elected into the bargain.

      We play by the rules

    23. Cod says:

      @Bob Mack
      I know. It sucks. I still don’t see and alternative that doesn’t just reduce the SNP to a government of the minority, who ignore the majority. And if that’s the case, how does that make them any better than the Tories?

    24. Cod says:

      @tartanfever

      Fine, ignore the Westminster voters. They still do have to represent the 53.5% of Scottish voters who did not vote for the SNP in the Scottish Parliament elections. They are, regardless of what you say, the Government for all Scots.

    25. galamcennalath says:

      I’d find Q20 very difficult.

      I believe England and Wales should get on with Brexit. Their choice was made, They can make their own minds up about what that means.

      Does anyone doubt Scotland and NI would want Remain again? We’ve made our choice regarding EU membership. What’s the point of re-running it?

      Scotland and NI should now have the choice on whether they want to take their own roads, or whether to remain in Union and go along with England and Wales.

      So, TBH I would feel like I’m making the choice of questions for E&W.

    26. Muscleguy says:

      Feeding our troughing, probably toxic, plastic ridden politicians to wolves would constitute manifest animal cruelty. That is of course assuming the wolves wouldn’t turn their noses up at the offerings.

    27. Not Common Neil says:

      @ Robert Louis

      Scotland IS part of it, though (this mess). We need to decide NOT to be. As long as SNP and its core bubble are dicking around trying to avoid using the fecking mandate, or do SOMETHING, and as long as SNP non-bubble arseholes are happy to be unrecognized by the people they have put into power, then they can hold march after march and it will still get fuck all done. NOTE: The marches are good, and the only way people have of expressing their want for Indy, BUT – until Sturgeon and the spotties do their fucking jobs , we’ll be marching ourselves for nothing more than a nice day out and a display that will be ignored.

    28. fman says:

      maybe the strategy is working. ians constant people of Scotland, people of Scotland, people of Scotland is winding them up.

    29. Not Common Neil says:

      But ScotGov have a plan, blah blah, blah. Trust Oor Nicola, blah blah blah.

    30. ian macdiarmid says:

      Cod you are speaking far to much sense to be listened to on this site at present,mores the pity.

    31. dadsarmy says:

      OT
      With the SNP apparently getting tougher and a little more open, you have to wonder if the nascent Wings Party is already doing its job of giving them a well-needed and overdue kick up the arse.

    32. Martyman says:

      “They’re trying to force a second vote on the people of the UK that they don’t want …”

      Isn’t it the case that the people didn’t want the first vote either?

    33. Bob Mack says:

      @Dadsarmy,

      Of that I have no doubt

    34. Giving Goose says:

      Something is going to give and soon.
      The desire for England to be an England needs to be encouraged.
      And what does the present SNP approach do in spades?
      That’s right!
      It stirs the English nationalist pot.
      Keep it going!

    35. SilverDarling says:

      @dadsarmy 6.58 pm

      Absolutely.

      Lesley Riddoch saying a new party needed too. When you have rivals nipping at your heels you have to move a bit faster.

    36. SilverDarling says:

      @cynicalHighlander

      Beat me to it!

    37. What Cod says.
      What a long winded piece to summarise that the Bad SNP do not have the backing of ‘the people of Scotland’, Stu.
      As you scratch your puzzled head ‘in between bouts of weeping with exhausted misery, frustration and rage’, it is clear that the pro Independence camp is split between’ let the English have their Brexit’, it can only hasten the Road to Independence, and those who argue, as Cod does, that the SNP Government represents all Scots, Leavers and remainers, and is heeding the warnings, that Brexit, any form of Brexit, will be disastrous for us all, and that an Independent Scotland within the EU, like the EU 27 is determined to mitigate the disaster that would be a No Deal Venture Capitalist’s wet dream, a ‘clean break’ Armagedoon.

      Tune in to Reporting Scotland tonight.
      Glenn Campbell and Brian Taylor at their Unionist best, lying by omission in the British Establishment cause.
      By Christ, what did the SNP do to upset you so, Stu?

    38. Bob Mack says:

      @Jack Collatin,

      The poll was filled in by others not the Rev. You are aware how polls work presumably. Jeez.

    39. Terry callachan says:

      Yes SNP represent all the people in Scotland but like any other political party in power the SNP have their own policies and a manifesto.
      Their policy on being in the EU is remain
      Their policy is also to bring about Scottish independence

      so even though it contradicts the increased possibility of Scottish independence they must act to keep Scotland in the EU which means stopping brexit.

      COD is correct

      However given that the Westminster government has not acted reasonably during the last three years since the brexit referendum I think the Scottish government and SNP could quite reasonably draw back and refrain from actively fighting to prevent brexit on the grounds that it is interfering with the overall UK brexit result

    40. Marcia says:

      A lot of people just want Brexit to go end and maybe reflected in the responses to the questions. What they don’t realise it is only the beginning of a process.

    41. Terry callachan says:

      Interesting , Labour councillor taxi expenses

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49851718

    42. Essexexile says:

      Could you spell those ramifications out anyway Rev? For those of us tired after a shitty day at work and increasingly, too jaded by politics to digest the daily who said what.
      Your predicted scenario is that Scots will be so utterly sick of anything political once Brexit is resolved that they’ll be rabidly incensed about being forced into a polling booth by a second indyref. They’ll see the option preferred by the party which pushed for the referendum, and put an X in the other box.
      I’m quite prepared to be sworn at if I’ve got that horribly wrong. Like I said, it’s been a long day!

    43. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Stu comments:

      … even among Remain voters a substantial 28% would rather just get Brexit over and done with once and for all than worry about hanging onto Scotland, [etc.]

      Which (along with the rest of it) rather supports my contention that no-one will thank us for continuing to try to use Brexit as motivation for indy after the Dirty Deed has been done to us, even against our explicit will. By then the trap will have been sprung, and we will be well-and-truly in it.

      And that’s allowing for Marcia‘s correct observation @ 19:55 that Brexit only really begins afterwards. (Boy, that’s going to be a nasty surprise for the willingly misled.)

    44. Lochside says:

      Does anyone truly believe that by keeping on trying to block England’s imperial delusions of exiting the EU, that it will benefit a Scotland permanently IMPRISONED by a bogus ‘UK’ constitution designed and manipulated to prevent its own dissolution and ultimate destruction?

      Add in a Brexit war weary Scottish electorate simultaneously brainwashed by Big Brother Corporation into supinity/ ongoing awesome foursome bullshit, combined with an SNP muddled non achievable S30 mirage…..

      The result: incandescent rage and malice erupting into unbridled English nationalism, even more inward than ever, but directed specifically at us..the Sweaties…and a probable ( cowed?) Scottish electoral majority against more ‘uncertainty’ via a ( refused) Indy Ref and a stymied demand via majority GE WM seats alternativ

      Where is the way out of this, when we are marooned in post EU darkness with these neo fascist bastards?
      Can some clear sighted SNP sage clarify the road out please?

    45. callmedave says:

      Terry callachan

      Old news:

      Here is the news: 🙂

      http://archive.is/ShJWH

    46. dadsarmy says:

      @callmedave / @Terry callachan
      Maybe some exoenses abuse but maybe some personal safety involved as well. What will Miles Briggs and co be saying if some female councillor in future gets r*ped and murdered because they walked home rather than take a taxi?

      “It wasn’t our fault”.

    47. Big Jock says:

      Scotland had an EU referendum. We voted remain. Why is Nicola campaigning for another EU ref. Does she not respect what us Scots voted for?

    48. Bob Mack says:

      14 October, 2019 at 7:31 pm

      @Jack Collatin,

      “The poll was filled in by others not the Rev. You are aware how polls work presumably. Jeez.”

      The point being argued is that the pro Independence vote is split between those who want England to crash out of Europe, the argument being that when the Brexshit hits the fan more Scots will be mided to vote Yes because they will witness the crash and burn of No Deal separation, whereas others, who are also pro independence take the view that it helps none of us to ostarcise 38% of Scots NBo/Leavers.
      We are all aware that Stu didn’t fill in the figures off the top of his head.
      It may be argued that he started off with the conclusion he sought, and worked backwards in compiling the rather confusing list of questions.
      I find myself able to answer two options as a YES supporter with equal weighting.
      No matter.

    49. mr thms says:

      Marcia @ 7:55

      The next part of the ‘process’ will be interesting.

      I wonder if the Scottish Government has reached an agreement with the UK Government with regard to the remaining four competencies?

      These are the hundred plus devolved powers the EU has responsibility for which should be return to Holyrood, but under the EU Withdrawal Act some will be shared with Westminster for a limited period.

      If they have, it probably explains the bit in The Queen’s Speech where she says

      “My Ministers will work to implement new regimes for fisheries, agriculture and trade, seizing the opportunities that arise from leaving the European Union [Fisheries Bill, Agriculture Bill and Trade Bill].”

      I remember the Scottish Tory MPs voting for an amendment which was successful for the UK to leave the EU VAT regime on Brexit Day.

      The Scottish Tories wanted VAT to be devolved to Scotland, under the Smith Commission, but it was against the rules of the EU VAT regime.

    50. galamcennalath says:

      Marcia says:

      A lot of people just want Brexit to go end … What they don’t realise it is only the beginning of a process.

      Exactly. Anyone who believes ‘the exit’ is the end has no idea what this is all about.

      If it’s ‘no deal’ then everything discussed in the last three years working towards a Withdrawal Agreement is still unfinished business. Citizens’ right, money owed, and the border in Ireland will still have to be resolved before trade talks start.

      If it’s a ‘deal’ with an agreed Withdrawal Agreement then the transition period begins and trade talks start about the future relationship. Remember all the talk for Norway, Canada, with plus, without, free trade agreements, tariffs etc etc.. All that begins and goes on for years. And how many trade agreements is the UK capable of negotiating simultaneously.

      And concurrently with all this … a recession, rising unemployment, shortages, poverty, poor standards, eroded rights, lax regulation, … one certainty, things in the Brexitted zone won’t be this good again for a long time.

      An End? Years, maybe decades away. Brexit itself is just the beginning of when thing become serious!

      Sadly naive and gullible people have no idea what’s coming their way.

      Scotland? Our way needs to be different. Soon.

    51. Colin Alexander says:

      “Scotland had an EU referendum. We voted remain. Why is Nicola campaigning for another EU ref. Does she not respect what us Scots voted for?”

      No.

    52. kapelmeister says:

      On the day when fellow politicians were jailed for 9 to 13 years for holding a plebiscite in Catalonia, all Jackson Cablaw can do is retweet someone’s sneers at the SNP for showing solidarity with the Catalonians.

      What an odious wee fascist sympathiser Cablaw is.

    53. Breeks says:

      I am not confused.

      Yes, there is uncertainty everywhere, but at times of uncertainty, you either through your hands in the air and dither, or you address that uncertainty and start building cohesion from those things you can be certain about.

      That is the essence of the Irish Backstop. Yes, everybody knows the UK is having a mental breakdown, but amidst all that chaos and uncertainty, there is the certainty that whatever happens, there will not be a Border in Ireland. There is acknowledgment of what is uncertain, but entrenchment of such certainties which do exist.

      In essence, Scotland is doing the same with its latest case. The Benn Act is a belated attempt at the same thing, a Backstop, – a contingency which makes some things certain in a maelstrom of uncertainty. Scotland is trying to make sure that whatever Johnson does, he will be obliged by the Benn Act Backstop to request an Article 50 Extension. I suppose it is a Backstop, just not a very good one. Or rather, it’s a very narrow and unambitious failsafe.

      The Irish Backstop provides a permanent platform for Irish Interests to be protected indefinitely by the EU, even the USA and International Law. There will be no Border in Ireland.

      The Benn Act Backstop is tepid by comparison. Boris Johnson will write a letter to request an extension of Article 50. He might renege, he might countermand the request, the extension might be refused… so with no disrespect to the Court of Session, it’s a pretty leaky Backstop, especially when compared to the Irish Backstop.

      However… Given the “Backstop Principle” is understood to a degree, as in, the Scottish Government wants a failsafe option as a contingency for when Johnson misbehaves, and make sure there is no “No Deal” Brexit, then why are we so lacking in ambition?

      Why, oh why, does the Scottish Government seek to pursue a binding legal Backstop to secure a piddling little extension to Article 50, when it could, and should, be securing a permanent and meaningful legal Backstop recognised in International Law, just like the Irish Backstop, by securing International Recognition of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty, disputing Westminster’s faux Parliamentary Sovereignty, and discrediting Brexit as an unlawful exercise in colonial subjugation?

      IF the Scottish Government wants to play fast and loose with Constitutional protocols and mandates in order to keep the uncertainty on simmer, why, oh why, don’t we take out an insurance policy to secure a little piece of Constitutional certainty and pursue a powerful and definitive Scottish Backstop which compels Westminster to resolve Scotland’s sovereign rejection of Brexit, instead of this wishy washy Benn Act compulsion to request an extension?

      We tested whether Article 50 could be revoked, and won. We tested whether Johnson could unlawfully prorogue Parliament, and won. We tested whether Johnson could be forced to request an extension, and ‘kinda’ won, – result pending. All of that is terrific, great, but it’s small beer beside winning a legal test case to establish international recognition of Scottish Sovereignty and discrediting Brexit as Colonial Subjugation contrary to International Law.

      Enough of the small stuff Joanna Cherry. I mean it’s beautiful, surgical, and very intense and clever, but these small victories are technically “small print” procedural issues that we’re contesting, when we really want to be shaking the very fabric of the UK and winning profound and far reaching test cases which expose shabby Heath-Robinson unwritten Constitution of the UK.

      You are winning these cases Joanna because the sanctity of Scots Law is legitimate and extant. It’s potency is real. Our Sovereignty is also real, and when we start testing that part of our Constitution, we will win those cases too. So what are we waiting for? Petition the EU and EUCJ to recognise a Scottish Backstop which challenges Westminster with securing the Brexit it desires, without overriding Scotland’s Sovereign objection.

      Such action would not in any way diminish the prospects of a referendum, but such a Scottish Backstop would give Scotland a Brexit Failsafe recognised by the same international benchmarks as the Irish Backstop. Not only would it greatly empower us, but it would be grossly negligent, not to mention wholly unconstitutional for us NOT to do this.

      We must secure a Scottish Backstop, then Brexit and all its maelstrom of conflicting opinion is reduced from a hurricane which might destroy us, to a wee bit of a gale we are gonna survive intact, Scottish… Backstop…. Now!

    54. TJenny says:

      callmedave – I see that nowhere in the article do they mention that Lezley Marion Cameron, is a Slabour councillor.

      I have also noticed that whenever there is an attack in the media on some SNP pol’s perceived misdemeanour,(shoes and a 2k allowance underspend), there is, as sure as night follows day, usually a similar revelation re some yoon pol, with much less media coverage, of course.

      To be fair, Lezley Marion Cameron, is standing down from Edin council, but that’s probably less because of her taxi expenses, and more ’cause she’s standing for Pentands in next GE, which is actually Edinburgh sw, Joanna Cherry’s manor. Good luck with that Ms Cameron. 😉 Slab, scraping the barrel again for candidates.

    55. callmedave says:

      Jings: Just saw this… 🙁

      Glasgow equal pay women shocked by legal fees on payouts

      http://archive.is/RzdVB

    56. Capella says:

      Another positive day at the SNP Conference with two particularly poetic and emotional speeches. One was from the Welsh Plaid Cymru reresentative in her “fraternal address”. The other was a passionate appeal to support the Catalan parliamentarians handed 11 year sentences for organising a referendum. Apologies I don’t have their names at hand.

      Much of the business concerned building the infrastructure for an independent Scotland. All necessary ground work for our future state.

      The atmosphere is low key IMO. There are elephants in the room – most notably BREXIT. It’ll be interesting to hear Nicola’s speech tomorrow. In the meantime though the general tone is “keep up the good work – improving people’s lives”.

      But there’s also an undercurrent of anticipation – at any minute the chain may snap and unicorn bolt. Stay alert!

    57. Colin Alexander says:

      Breeks

      The SNP are colonial administrators. That’s how.

    58. Bobp says:

      “A lot of people just want Brexit to go end….”. Yes Brexit is only starting, zero contract hours, low wages, employment rights done away with, complete privatisation of the SNHS and NHS. chlorinated sh**e from America, lower food safety standards. The list goes on and on, and the Tories are leading in the polls down here in england. One half of Scotland needs to wake the f**k up and get their a**e in gear before they for evermore become just a barren region of northern England.

    59. Famous15 says:

      ColinAlexander @ 9.29

      You forgot to add FACT in Trump speak style. LOL

    60. Iain More says:

      So just when are the English going to do UDI? I hope we will all encourage them in this process since they seem to be running shy of any more Referendums.

    61. Effijy says:

      Try to watch tonight’s Disclosure programme that was on the BBC.
      It looked at the equal pay debacle for female employees of Glasgow City Council.

      The section that I seen refused to establish that it was Labour who controlled the council
      And it was they who refused them equal status and they who spent fortunes fighting the
      Women in the court.

      Again failure of how the new SNP council paid out Labour’s debt and now its crippling the city budgets.

      The show attacked the main Unions as it seems they are charging massive fees to those paid out
      Although they promised they would get all their payment.

      I’m in the Union but don’t pay money toward the Red Tory Partty.
      The Union officials disgusted me with their attitudes.
      It transpires the Unions lies to the woman and a secret formula is used to
      Deduct legal fees from the women’s pay out.
      It’s thought that it may be 6.9% of £500,000,000.

      Your Union fees are supposed to cover any legal fees.
      I can see big pay outs for Union officials.

      The real irony is that the Unions Achieved Nothing over the 10 year battle even though they were
      Fighting their comrades that they gather levies from in the Labour Party..

      I’ll never vote Labour again and I’ll be leaving my Union very shortly.

      All of the above of course are English based.

      BBC just as normal refusing point blank to name SNP and the pain they must now endure due to disgraceful Labour Politicians and their Union monkeys.

    62. Colin Alexander says:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49985113

      Glasgow equal pay women shocked by legal fees on payouts

    63. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin A @9:50

      and the winners are……the banks and the lawyers.

      and the losers are…….the tax payer and the fine City of Glasgow.

      all for a bunch of greedy women who never had an equal pay claim in the first place – which is why they settled. GCC knew it, the trades unionists knew it, the claimants knew it. Fraud on a grand scale.

      History will not be kind.

    64. Terry callachan says:

      I would not join any union
      They are not to be trusted

      The workers have no control over them

    65. Terry callachan says:

      Colin Alexander ,

      The SNP will take Scotland to independence

      Enjoy it

    66. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Effijy @ 21:43,

      Parasites before the event, parasites after. And only half-truths from the BBC all the way through. Nothing ever changes with these miscreants – a finaglers’ free-pass.

      I just hope that the women (and everyone else, for that matter) somehow get to find out the full truth about who, what and when.

    67. Sinky says:

      Effijy, BBC in full Unionist propganda mood this evening. After failing to make it clear that it was Labour run Glasgow council and the unions who kept unerpaying women workers in the Disclosure programme, BBC 10 news describes Catalan political protests as separatists rather than self government supporters then they give Jo Swinson coverage of Queen’s Speech priority over Ian Blackford who is the leader if the third largest party at Westminster and has priority in House of Commons.

    68. Mark Russell says:

      I think there’s something inn the air. Or water. Would account for the signifiant increase in lunacy and general fucking madness. Surely to christ education standards haven’t fallen THAT much in the last four decades? Maybe it’s because we’re down south, Stu – all you have to do is listen in a pub or cafe. England’s set to sail in two weeks time. Scotland’s looking up the gangway and wondering if the lifeboats are ok – and haven’t already been reserved. Rough seas ahead. Do you go or do you stay?

    69. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Sorry Stu., my head is bursting about opinion polls. Also the various references to ScotGP had me go have a look at that site. What worries me is a whole lot of energy being spent on an Indy Wings Party Holyrood list campaign for 2021 when the thesis seems to be based on what I understand James Kelly calls the Archie Stirling “election-vote-from-poll-extrapolation” that ended disastrously.

      An inaugural Wings Party may require many of us to donate cumulatively between £100,000 and £640,000. The electoral Commission currently proscribes an £80,000 limit in the 8 regions. Hence the £640,000 maximum.

      Stuart, I have been an avid reader of your website for years. Myself and family members have donated regularly. With these bona fides, plus a very successful career in getting closed businesses back open and many new jobs created by ensuring our business plans are robust and finances are spent well, I always run a stress tested S.W.O.T., analysis. Therefore in the Wings Party organisation, I would respectfully ask the following poll be made.

      NEW POLL QUESTION:

      If the following parties were to stand prospective MSP candidates in the 2021 Scottish Holyrood election on the regional list, which one would you vote for?

      [__] Scottish National Party (SNP)
      [__] Labour
      [__] Conservatives
      [__] Liberal Democrats
      [__] Greens
      [__] Brexit Party
      [__] Wings Over Scotland
      [__] Scottish Socialist Party (SSP)
      [__] Rise

      This would help AVOID a disaster of the Archie Stirling debacle happening to Wings ScotIndy Party.
      —————–
      P.S. If we don’t robustly test the Wings ScotIndy Party then all of our donation to the 2021 Holyrood election are basically a bet on polling along these lines…

      “Yes Minister” television series and the proof that leading questions can reach polar opposite conclusions….

      BERNARD: Well, the party had an opinion poll done, and it seems all the voters were in favour of bringing back national service.
      HUMPHREY: Well, have another opinion poll done showing the voters are AGAINST bringing back national service.
      BERNARD: They can’t be for it AND against it.
      HUMPHREY: Oh, of course they can, Bernard. Have you ever been surveyed?
      BERNARD: Yes. Well, not me, actually, my house. Oh, I see what you mean.
      HUMPHREY: Bernard, you know what happens. A nice young lady comes up to you. Obviously you want to create a good impression, you don’t want to look a fool, do you?
      BERNARD: No.
      HUMPHREY: No. So she starts asking you some questions. Mr Woolley, are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Do you think there’s a lack of discipline in our comprehensive schools?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Do you think they respond to a challenge?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Would you be in favour of reintroducing national service?
      BERNARD: …Oh. Well, I suppose I might be.
      HUMPHREY: Yes or no?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Of course you would, Bernard. After all you’ve told me, you can’t say no to that. So, they don’t mention the first five questions and they publish the last one.
      BERNARD: Is that really what they do?
      HUMPHREY: Not the reputable ones, no, but there aren’t many of those. Alternatively, the young lady can get the opposite result.
      BERNARD: How?
      HUMPHREY: Mr Woolley, are you worried about the danger of war?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Are you worried about the growth of armaments?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Do you think there’s a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Do you think it’s wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: Would you oppose the reintroduction of national service?
      BERNARD: Yes.
      HUMPHREY: There you are, you see, Bernard. The perfect balanced sample. So we just commission our own survey for the Ministry of Defence. See to it, Bernard.

    70. dadsarmy says:

      @Al-Stuart
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Voice

      That’s the “Archie Stirling poll”.

      What SGP totally fails to point out is that that party was launched in Feb 2007 – NOT on the basis of that poll. The poll was in April 2007, and the Holyrood election was in May 2007.

      This is absolutely and totally different, no valid comparison at all. The poll question Rev put was to establish if there is any interest, for a party which WOULD NOT EVEN BE FORMED for another year or more. And the Rev HAS indicated he would do a more conventional poll.

      You can draw your own conclusions what the motives are of totally misrepresenting the comparison of the two diametrically different situations. Hissy handbags is what I’d put it down to.

      I’ve seen you posting for a long time, so I know you’re not one of those who’ve jumped on this trying to create division.

    71. georger wood says:

      @Al Stuart 10.26pm

      If we get to 2021 without the SNP calling a referendum, then there will be a lot of angry pro Independence voters.

      The situation then will be a lot different from now because that betrayal hasn’t happened yet. Hopefully, it doesn’t happen, but there is a strong lobby group within the SNP for delaying until the polls reach an unrealistic target

      Of course the SNP fanatics on here will still be pushing for SNP1/SNP2 as they care more for the party they do for Independence.

    72. Phronesis says:

      Campaigns of civil disobedience, rebellion, the right to rule yourself. Spain take note. Making martyrs of political prisoners does not end well for the oppressors and shames your country because it is an EU member state and a signatory of the The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union.

      Today’s pomp and ceremony here tells us that the sun has already set on the British empire. The four nations should rule themselves and negotiate their own separate constitutions. That would be an acceptable and dignified end to the remnants of empire and imbalanced union where no country is particularly happy with the status quo. Scotland has a tryst with destiny.

      ‘On Dec. 12, 1963, Kenya gained its independence from Britain…Between 1952 and 1956, the British defeated the Mau Mau through a brutal campaign of military action and widespread detention of the Kikuyu. However, the Mau Mau Rebellion also persuaded the British that social, political and agrarian reforms were necessary…Over the next several years, the British worked with African and white settler leaders to plan the country’s transition to independence. These conferences produced a constitution in 1963’
      https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/16/world/europe/16iht-letter16.html

      ‘On Aug. 15, 1947, Jawaharlal Nehru addressed the nation with a new Declaration of Independence and became the first prime minister of India…
      In 1919, in response to civil unrest over the outbreak of World War I and widespread crop failures…Mohandas Gandhi declared a “satyagraha,” meaning “devotion to truth,” against the Raj, launching a nonviolent campaign of civil disobedience’

      http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/July-August-08/On-this-Day–India-Gains-Independence-from-Britain.html

      ‘After the First World War it became increasingly difficult for Britain to hold on to Australia. It became clear that. Britain could no longer afford an Empire and they had no right to rule people who did not want to be ruled by Britain’

      http://endofthebritishempire.weebly.com/australia.html

    73. Colin Alexander says:

      “all for a bunch of greedy women who never had an equal pay claim in the first place – which is why they settled”.

      Sorry, you are very mistaken in this part of your comment.

      The women WON their case in court in 2017. There followed further negotiations to reach a settlement.

      I agree, the (mainly) women were shafted by the Labour Party and the Unions for years. Now they’ve been shafted again by the Unions who tried to take the credit for settling this long running dispute.

    74. galamcennalath says:

      If Johnson can knock up a ‘deal’ now, at the last minute, why didn’t he start work on it when he became PM?

      Most of us have had real jobs, in the real world, with real employers. We’ve have been sacked umpteen times over if we had been behaved like Johnson. Yet he thinks he’s teflon coated and unsackable.

    75. is any of this relevant to what is going on in reality ?

      Only thing worth reading here is @Brian Doonthetoon 8.17pm

      maybe a few of us can get together and figure out how to find the spaceship that conducted an abduction of Stu and see if we can rescue him

      he seems to be doing his best to sing the Wings party before it ever got off the ground

    76. Colin Alexander says:

      Terry callachan says:
      14 October, 2019 at 10:15 pm

      “Colin Alexander , The SNP will take Scotland to independence”

      I think the ordinary sovereign people of Scotland ( and bloggers like Stu and Peter A Bell and Craig Murray) are the ones pushing the SNP colonial administrators towards independence.

      People are now sick of SNP dithering and their insistence on Scotland bending the knee to Kingdom of England constitutional traditions of the “sovereignty of the (English) Crown in Parliament”.

      If the FM and SNP genuinely believe the people of Scotland are sovereign they should be asserting that sovereignty, not asking permission to hold an indyref.

      Discussions with UK Govt or the EU or any other interested party should be offered as a courtesy, to smooth the path to independence. Not because we need to ask their permission to dissolve the Union.

      If the SNP keep resisting the rising tide of support for independence, it’s only a matter of time before Ms Sturgeon and the other devolution-first politicians are swept aside.

    77. Patrick Roden says:

      @ jack collatin

      By Christ, what did the SNP do to upset you so, Stu?

      I think it started when they congratulated Kezia Dugdale after she won the legal battle with the Rev, and to be honest, it was a real eye opener to me that so many in the higher echelons of the SNP, seemed to be more concerned that Kezia was a woman and the Rev was a man, than who was the political opponent or even who was right or wrong.

    78. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Hi Dads Army,

      Thank you kindly for the reply. It is genuinely nice to have a helpful reply, and yours did clear up some points. Much appreciated. I am certainly not wanting division. Frankly I just want Independence for Scotland!

      The SGP exchanges between Stu., and James bothers me as they are nominally both on the same side.

      The original logic that Stuart laid out for a Holyrood Constituency pro Indy WoS Party made great sense.

      I would absolutely vote for WoS.

      By 2021 we will know whether MISecret Squirrels have managed to kybosh Alec Salmond or not. If Alec gives his characteristic robust defense and put the litigation behind him, and then came on board a WoS party, to me that would be a win-win and Holyrood would have an Indy majority without reliance upon the prevaricating Greens.

      Imagine Nicola and Alex at FM questions. At the moment it is 5 against one at FMQ and always looks a bit outnumbered on political tv.

      Today at one of the conference extra curricular meetings Lesley Riddoch effectively stated (on video to social media) that she would be supporting this idea.

      At the moment Stu., is carrying a ton of stuff on his back, it would good to have some heavy hitters with gravitas join up to become MSPs of a WoS type party and lessen the load on the Revs plate.

      Thanks Dads Army for understanding the logic and direction from my earlier post.

      I just want to see Stuart’s plan work and not get Kezia Dugdaled by the Establishment or “events”

      Cheers, Al.

    79. georger wood says:

      cadogan Enright says:
      14 October, 2019 at 11:19 pm

      we could start in area 51 – I mean Compton in Bershire

      https://www.army.mod.uk/who-we-are/formations-divisions-brigades/6th-united-kingdom-division/77-brigade/

      Maybe not wise to give your work address out on social media.

    80. SilverDarling says:

      @Capella 9.28 pm

      Thanks for that report.

      Are the National Office Holders announced tomorrow? I suppose we may get a flavour of the way the wider membership feel about GRA depending on who is elected.

    81. Cubby says:

      On the BBC news tonight Sarah Smith sums up British democracy when she tells Nicola Sturgeon that she won’t be allowed an independence referendum by the UK gov as the polls say you will win.

    82. Iain mhor says:

      News to me the SNP had to govern to represent all Scots – the Scottish Parliament maybe. Though I thought the representative Parliament for all Scots was the UK one – which isn’t much interested in governing to represent what Scotland wants. Or did I pick that up wrong somewhere along the line.
      Do we have two Parliaments and two Governments? Which one is the ultimate representative one then? Beats me.
      Maybe there is a way to reject one and validate the other. Perhaps electing some sort of political party, whose purpose would be solely to represent those rejecting the opposite Parliament and government. Or maybe not. “Sources” inform me this cannot be done, any such political party cannot exist to do that, for ‘reasons’.
      One of the reasons apparently, is that in order to execute such representation, it must be the party of government. But any party of government, is then precisely excluded from pusuing such a sole mandate.
      Oh well…it was just a thought. That must be what ‘Politics for Dummies’ calls a ‘Democratic Deficit’ and ‘Disenfranchisement’, in the chapter titled “Ha Ha Sucker!”

    83. Cubby says:

      In the Hof Commons today Johnson says ” We aim to create a new age of opportunity for the whole country.”

      Be in no doubt that when he says country he means ENGLAND.

    84. James Barr Gardner says:

      Nicola ye canny ride twa horses at the same time, mak’ up yer mind noo, whit’s it tae be !

      Bear in mind BREXSHIT will go ahead the majority of English voters in BOTH England and SCOTLAND will vote for it in any subsequent Brexit Referendum. FACT !

      After BREXSHIT when the disaster becomes seen for what it is Westminster will appease English voters by shamefully asset stripping Scotland to provide jobs in England, it’s what they have been doing for years, however due to the InterNet it’s not so easy hid this practice any more. FACT !

      With Barnet Formula scrapped and Scotland impoverished thr Torys job is done thanks to all the defeatist SNP !

      If this dire situation arises those who have betrayed the Scottish Nation will go down History as such, an cursed for it!

    85. Kangaroo says:

      O/T Posting this to see what you think.

      Re: Northern Ireland

      They voted Remain so leave them in the Customs Union and Single Market with the Border in the Irish Sea.

      If they wish to change this arrangement then
      a) the NI Assembly has to Vote for the change, and
      b) the people of NI must then vote for it in a referendum, and
      c) Westminster and the ROI must agree that any change does not undermine the Good Friday Agreement

      That allows the people to decide and not the politicians.

    86. defo says:

      galamcennalath says: at 9:00 pm
      Marcia says:

      “A lot of people just want Brexit to go end … What they don’t realise it is only the beginning of a process.”

      What people don’t know is that there’s very little chance that HMG will be able to recruit sufficient, and suitably qualified trade negotiators, because of the Civil service pay cap.
      The only way round this is an HS2 style pockle,i.e. the work is subbed out to private co’s.
      A beanfest for the Tories mates!

    87. defo says:

      It looks like the fascist Bojo has ordered the Met to ride roughshod over Human rights. A taste of things to come.

    88. RM says:

      Scotland has to start being the independent country that we are, we have separate laws, financial institutions, a border etc, it’s a union between two separate countries end it we’ll still be good neighbors we’ll receive from England, they’ll receive from Scotland which they’ve done for years so it doesn’t have to stop but the Scots will control our own country, we need to get our pride and culture back , it’s like having one arm tied behind your back all the time.

    89. Capella says:

      @ SilverDarling 11.27 – yes the results should be available this am. The BBC (Scotland branch) is trailing Nicola’s speech this morning, unusually. Mhairi Black will speak today too.

      I watched the footage of the Tory (and Labour) walkout when Ian Blackford got up to speak yesterday. Looks like Westminster has already conceded that the Union is dead.

    90. Alison Brown says:

      England voted to leave. The only democratic referendum they should have is to choose between the deal (if they get one) and no deal. We voted to remain in the EU and we should have the democratic right to choose whether we want to continue to be ruled by England in the UK or be independent in the EU. Simple.

    91. Effijy says:

      Kangaroo,

      Hope it!

      Your thought puts Scotland at an economic disadvantage against NI
      It also ensured that Scotland is the only one in the so called UK who
      doesn’t get what they voted for.

      That cycle needs to be stopped for good and at this juncture.

    92. Capella says:

      @ Alison Brown – obviously what’s required is a UK referendum with:

      IN the UK OUT of the EU
      IN the EU OUT of the UK

    93. Jock McDonnell says:

      looks like pretty much tv & radio silence on Catalonia

    94. Iain More says:

      RM says:
      15 October, 2019 at 7:18 am

      “Scotland has to start being the independent country that we are, we have separate laws, financial institutions, a border etc, it’s a union between two separate countries end it we’ll still be good neighbors we’ll receive from England, they’ll receive from Scotland which they’ve done for years so it doesn’t have to stop but the Scots will control our own country, we need to get our pride and culture back , it’s like having one arm tied behind your back all the time.”

      I am not long back from Moscow and the one thing that struck me about Russia whilst I was there was that the people are proud. Oh and the alleged Oil and Gas economy seems to be ticking over nicely. There is no anarchy or chaos and nobody to my knowledge is starving. I could go on but I would upset a lot of folk. Well there are also those here that will tell you that Culture has no part to play in driving us to Independence.

    95. Abulhaq says:

      Sturgeon has said often enough that the Youkay ie British state is in a mess. Why does she and her crew insist upon trying to redeem it?
      It is plainly beyond redemption. Let it go to its allocated slot in Hell. We must not be dragged down with it as a result of misplaced, maudlin sentimental attachment.
      Let Scotland be rid of this life-sucking monstrosity.
      Let Scotland be truly free.

    96. Alt Clut says:

      As often, and despite the complications which give these threads their interminability, the main issues can be seen.
      rUK will never willingly agree to an indy Scotland. England, and maybe Wales, want(s) Brexit. Scotland and north of Ireland don’t. Political majorities are hard to find at W/minster.
      Conclusion (deep down we’ve known it for years) make them want us to go away !
      Methods? Oppose what they want on Brexit, build indy movement, have every last W/minster MP possible to aid the blocking of their Brexit.
      In the mire and chaos of today – relatively ‘simples’.
      Don’ waste time in arguments dancing on pin heads – build YES and build the SNP vote.

    97. Ali says:

      The problem was asking the people in the first place. We woulnd’t ask them about capital punishment because we know they’d vote for it. Which is why we shouldn’t have asked them about the EU.

    98. galamcennalath says:

      Kangaroo says:

      Re: Northern Irelan … leave them in the Customs Union and Single Market with the Border in the Irish Sea.

      Yes. Something akin to that is essential and probably the outcome. It will be served up in weasel words, but basically amount to that. TMay before EURef said NI will need its own arrangements. Everyone who has had their eyes open has always known this.

      Tory and BritNat failure to face up to the reality of NI and the GFA has been the main stalling point all along. Some just ignore it in convenient ignorance, others take the DUP view that NI should move closer to the UK and damage the GFA.

      England and Wales achieving a hard Brexit ( out of customs union and single market ) is incompatible with retaining the integrity of the UK. The Union will be the cost of their Brexit.

      NI’s necessary relationship with the EU/Rep is one aspect damaging the Union.

      As @Effijy at 7:56 points out, resolving the NI situation properly has an immediate impact on Scotland’s relationship with the EU & UK. We didn’t want Brexit, and we also want a close relationship with the EU. It’s more petrol thrown onto the bonfire of the UK.

      Brexiteers knew well that the Union was going to be seriously strained, and might not survive, leaving the EU.

      Basically English Nationalism is about to trump British Nationalism,

    99. Stuart MacKay says:

      @Abulhaq

      Fighting Brexit to the end must surely be playing to an EU audience to show that Scotland is committed to the project. It’s probably worthwhile as a bargaining card in any future relationship with the EU despite the obvious futility in doing this for the domestic audience.

    100. Kangaroo says:

      Effijy @ 7:56am

      My thoughts were to try and solve the Northern Ireland issue, such that the UK could move on from that roadblock. I do understand that Scotland would be at a competitive disadvantage in that scenario and therefore it would be an issue for us.

      Galamancennalath @9:38am
      Also appreciate your comments. All true, the UK will break up but there is no alternative that works for everyone.

    101. Alabaman says:

      Me thinks that there were too many questions asked.

    102. manandboy says:

      When EU reason meets English Establishment emotion, with no more time for delay. Coming soon.

      These are from RTÉ’s Tony Connelly.(Courtesy The Guardian)

      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      Breaking: the UK will table fresh proposals to break the Brexit deadlock this morning, @rtenews understands

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      2/ Two well-placed sources have confirmed that UK negotiators will bring forward a new text when they meet European Commission negotiators in Brussels this morning

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      3/ It follows a 90 minute meeting between Boris Johnson and DUP leader Arlene Foster, and deputy leader Nigel Dodds in Downing Street last night

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      4/ It’s not clear yet if the proposals are a revised version of the dual customs scheme which the UK proposed following the breakthrough meeting between Leo Varadkar and Boris Johnson last week in Cheshire, or whether they are something much different

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      5/ The development follows a downbeat assessment by the EU’s chief negotiator on Sunday over the dual customs idea, which would see NI stay in the UK’s customs territory, but operate the EU’s rules and procedures on tariffs

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      6/ EU sources have said the original NI-only backstop is a much clearer and legally watertight way to resolve the problem of avoiding a customs border on the island of Ireland.

      October 15, 2019
      Tony Connelly
      (@tconnellyRTE)
      7/ However, the UK and DUP have long rejected the original backstop as the way forward.

      October 15, 2019

    103. manandboy says:

      The British Establishment has a military force stationed in NI.

      So, let’s ask the unaskable question for the British Unionist Media. What does the DUP have to offer the English Establishment, to warrant the support, the protection and the ‘respect’ of the English Ruling Class?

      Setting aside the Media flimflam, the answer lies in the media suppressed, but inseparable, relationship between the DUP and the Loyalist paramilitaries.

      In other words, the DUP has it’s finger on the trigger of paramilitary violence in NI. The Establishment back in London like that, for it constitutes the Establishment’s own ‘backstop’ – the guarantee of Unionist power in NI, as they see it.

      To allow NI to remain in the EU single market and Customs Union, would be to effectively hand over control of the Loyalist paramilitaries to the EU.

      Let’s see if and how this is resolved this week.

    104. Craig Fraser says:

      I have said this before – The issue is/was and always will be the UK. It is a unitary state with the largest unit i.e. England telling the other 3 smaller units i.e. Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland what they can and cannot do. This democratic deficit is never,ever going to change until the UK no longer exists. Cameron knew this when he removed the option that all 4 nations of the UK must vote the same way in the EU referendum. Scotland and Northern Ireland should remain in the EU as that is what the voters in those countries voted for. England and Wales should leave the EU as that is what their voters voted for. The UK is well and truly f’d. Dissolve the union

    105. schrodingers cat says:

      interesting take on rt by alex salmond.

      the spanish judgements wont stand up and will go to the eu courts.

      they have ensured that the eu cant keep silent.

      big mistake

    106. galamcennalath says:

      Craig Fraser says:

      Cameron knew this when he removed the option that all 4 nations of the UK must vote the same way in the EU referendum.

      Yes, I had forgotten that aspect of the debacle. It was suggested to Cameron that he should think about national vetoes, but he wouldn’t have any of it. Those suggesting it were being sensible, he was a fool.

      The BritNat fantasy is/was of course that the UK votes as a whole. The obvious problem was always going to be that the UK is no longer sufficiently United for that to have any hope of working out for such a fundamental and far reaching issue.

      Brexit has much reduced the shelf life of the already fragile UK. Scotland was already tottering on the edge. NI, however, was probably still more closely tied before EURef. The Leave result, and the quest for a hard Brexit, appears to have shifted NI opinion considerably. Pre 2016 reunification seemed many years away, now it’s being considered by those who previously wouldn’t have entertained it.

      UK is now just a dead man walking.

      Dissolve the Union, and let the various nations of these Isles get on with life, separately but in cooperation as neighbours and friends.

    107. cirsium says:

      @schrodinger’s cat, 11.45am
      the spanish judgements wont stand up and will go to the eu courts.

      The judgment is in breach of Article 2 of the Treaty of Lisbon and will require action by the EU Commissioners under Article 7. The UN commission on Human Rights has already stated that these politicians have been held in arbitrary detention so should have been released immediately and awarded compensation. The commission has already commented on Julian Assange’s arbitrary detention.

      Spain, like the UK, has corrupted its law.

    108. manandboy says:

      Normal Tory Government business is to reward generous donors to the Tory Party, by lobbying on their behalf for lucrative contracts while on State visits.

      For ‘business’, substitute corruption.

      theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/15/revealed-cameron-and-may-lobbied-bahrain-royals-for-tory-donors-oil-firm

    109. Kenny J says:

      Para under the first table, last line.
      : By a resounding margin of 55-36, English voters now prioritise getting out of Europe over hanging onto their Celtic COUSINS:.
      Mmm, perhaps replace with pets, vassals, lackeys. Honorary English, na, that’s a wee bit strong.

    110. Glamaig says:

      SNP, party of government in Scotland for 12 years and still have a big majority in the polls, and support for independence now 50% and rising.

      So why is Wings now full of anti SNP articles and comments at this particular time? Why not focus on the opposition parties and unionist media?

    111. Bob Mack says:

      @Glamaig,

      Just a guess but perhaps he has thoughts of his own on how the SNP are tackling indy.

      I believe it happens

    112. Confused says:

      I see on twitter the rev has been reading the guardian … it never ends well.

      while the mail and telegraph are upfront in their empire loyalism and general lunacy, the guardian comes on you sneakstyle, pretending to be a friend

      THE WIORKING CLARS OF LIVERPOOL AND GLASGOW HAVE MORE IN COMMON …
      JEREMY CORBYN WILL FIX EVERYTHING WITH -SOSHALISZM- …

      excuse me if I don’t wolf-down-uncritically that stale shit sandwich with a drizzle of piss I have been offered a hundred times …

      2 3 4

      FEDERALISM

      – 5 6 7 8

      fuck yourself with a fire extinguisher, fuck yourself with it … dry, encrusted with ground glass

      the guardian journo comes from the same place as the mail and telegraph journo – they probably knew each other at uni – its an oxbridge wankers club who glided into nice slots in the corporation; while trickle-down economic theory is bullshit in the large, it does work very selectively and at short range – the middle class londoner did very well out of neoliberalism and has been riding the wave of asset bubbles to unearned wealth ever since … fuck the english middle class

      – and the trouble with the english working class is this – they are the most spineless, fuckwitted, dregs on earth – and this is the key point, which incidentally drove old karl mad – when push comes to shove, as soon as the elite offer them the merest crumbs off the table, it is … god save the queen and there will always be an england

      – as for the upper class, that’s the enemy in his lair – there has never been a more rapacious criminal put on this earth

      possibly the worst thing about the guardian is their utter cowardice when it comes to comments – first of all a “code of conduct” which means – “you agree with us on everything” – but even with this, their crappy journos often get eviscerated in the comments – case in point Gary Younge does an “oh the racism is bad” piece and gets hammered. But mostly they do not allow that kind of thing.

      ironically, the FM would be the guardian’s “dream girl” – for once they are not pumping some female of utter mediocrity simply for the sake of it – if she simply gave up the independence; they love the virtue signalling so they do. Whereas, up here, it tends to alienate.

      The Guardian.

      – JUST SAY NO KIDS

      – it is a gateway to madness

      It goes without saying the independence bloggers of the wankerist tendency, the woke-nats would probably sell their souls for a job at the Guardian.

    113. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Glamaig says:

      Perhaps because – with 3 clear Mandates for an Indyref2… we will be taken out of the EU against our democratic wishes in 16 days time, and plan A has a great big gaping weakness at its heart – namely – what if we keep asking nicely and Westminster keeps saying No, especially now it looks like we will win?

      To which the answer is, Nicola reads lots of books, she’s a smart lady, a trained lawyer – she MUST have a secret plan up her sleeve – so everyone just shut up and trust her.

      Which would be so much more believable if the ground which needs to be covered anyway, was being covered – such as overcoming BBC bias with pictorial Graphs showing the real condition of Scotland’s assets and economy.

      Instead that is being left to the brilliant IndyPoster Boy team and their crowdfunded Billboards.

      Never mind though – a government that illegally prorogues its own parliament, will NEVER shut down Holyrood, especially once its disconnected from its membership of the EU.

      Comfort though can be had with the thought of a soon to be held GE – except – according to the polls – the only 2 parties which will win on that are the Tories with an outright majority – and the SNP (maybe – if the GRA nonsense doesn’t come back and bite them on the arse – big time). So the tories don’t need to call one when they are in power already and the other WM parties don’t want one cause they’ll be wiped out (and none of them are friends of the SNP). So yes, there will be a GE any day now folks, any day, soon… and a 4th mandate will be all ours.

      Best to stock up on the emergency Brexit Rations – could be a long year.

    114. Breeks says:

      Barnier gives Johnson a midnight deadline to accept a border down the Irish Sea and de facto United Ireland in all but name. Boris can now accept that deal and thus negate the Benn Act requiring him to request an extension as opposed to No Deal, Boris then brings his Deal to Parliament but fails to get it through, and the UK defaults to a No Deal Brexit on 31st October.

      What a pity Scotland doesn’t have a Constitutional Backstop which respects Scotland’s sovereignty, because then Barnier would know about the Sovereignty of the people, and might have been aware that different economic zones within the UK is itself a contravention of the Treaty of Union. You cannot honour one treaty by breaching another… unless you have cowardly supine Scottish Government which doesn’t wish to cause a fuss .

      But if Ireland quickly becomes a united Ireland, then that argument becomes obsolete too, and Scotland once again has dithered it’s way to failure.

      FFS SNP, grow a backbone and demand a Scottish Backstop which injects the issue of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty into these ‘negotiations’ at the top of the agenda from which we are excluded by your timidity and supine acquiescence to be sidelined as “any other business”.

    115. Breeks says:

      Barnier gives Johnson a midnight deadline to accept a border down the Irish Sea and de facto United Ireland in all but name. Boris can now accept that deal and thus negate the Benn Act requiring him to request an extension as opposed to No Deal, Boris then brings his Deal to Parliament but fails to get it through, and the UK defaults to a No Deal Brexit on 31st October.

      What a pity Scotland doesn’t have a Constitutional Backstop which respects Scotland’s sovereignty, because then Barnier would know about the Sovereignty of the people, and might have been aware that different economic zones within the UK is itself a contravention of the Treaty of Union. You cannot honour one treaty by breaching another… unless you have a cowardly supine Scottish Government which rolls over because it doesn’t wish to cause a fuss .

      But if Ireland quickly becomes a united Ireland, then that argument becomes obsolete too, and Scotland once again has dithered it’s way to failure.

      FFS SNP, grow a backbone and demand a Scottish Backstop which injects the issue of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty into these ‘negotiations’ at the top of the agenda from which we are excluded by your timidity and supine acquiescence to be sidelined as “any other business”.

    116. Breeks says:

      Sorry for the duplicate. Server issues are borderline and comms are uncertain.

    117. Shamur says:

      Well, as your poll has confirmed, the SNP pushing to stop Brexit has achieved something…….that the English who voted for Brexit, dislike the Scots more and would like shot of us. Surely that in itself was worth them pushing to reverse Brexit? I am also keenly aware that Keepimg England in the EU would be more beneficial to us than not in an Indy Scotland.

      Also, pushing to avoid Brexit has confirmed that Scots Law is accepted and valid as per the Supeme Court conclusion on the proroging of parliament the first time.

    118. Jack Murphy says:

      I’m placing this here because I don’t wish to disrupt the Wings latest article today ‘The Soul of the SNP’.

      Here is Joanna Cherry QC MP speaking to Skotia yesterday in Aberdeen
      It’s less than 4 minutes.

      A random quote from Joanna Cherry:

      “……..It would be a matter of the utmost gravity if the Prime Minister said one thing to the Court [presumably she is referring to Scotland’s Inner Court] and then did another thing……..”

      As I say the filmed interview on Skotia is less than 4 minutes.

      YouTube link
      https://tinyurl.com/y4w3tlnl

    119. Cubby says:

      Hof Commons Catalonia Urgent Question

      The SNP making many many valid points but the Tory minister just stonewalling – the law is the Spanish law – they just have to suck up their their sentences – tough.

      Only one MP supported the Minister that I saw, our own Billy Bunter the Tory MP for Stirling Stephen Kerr. Even Sir Desmond Swane Tory MP and mad Brexiteer criticised the sentences but the Tory Foreign office minister stuck to his line of nothing to do with us. Kerr is a complete embarrassment to Scotland – trying to take the accolade of top Tory bampot in Scotland away from Ross Thomson.

      It is worth noting the very small number of Labour MPs in attendance.

    120. Cubby says:

      Catalonia

      Three defendants were found guilty of DISOBEDIANCE – disobedience for goodness sake and were fined but not jailed.

      How the hell can any Court find someone guilty of disobediance. Spain is on its way back to fascism. No more Spanish hols for me. No more purchases of Rioja for me but thankfully I have a substantial supply in my wine cellar (only joking about the wine cellar but not the rest of the post).

    121. Cubby says:

      Queens Speech Debate

      Stephen Gethins in the Hof Commons says that what is required is a real partnership of equals outside the UK. Of course the reality is that will never happen as England has had over 300 years to deliver that but has failed. The reason England has failed is that England sees itself as superior to not just Wales/Ireland and Scotland but all the other countries of the world. The old Brutish Empire colonial mindset is still alive and well down south and can be heard nearly every time a Tory opens their mouth and speaks.

    122. Paul says:

      So what if the voters of England are annoyed it is their mess they created it so to Hell with them!

    123. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Cubby says:
      15 October, 2019 at 3:38 pm

      “Catalonia”

      here Here!

      It would be nice if someone were to introduce a Topical/Emergency Resolution (I forget which is pertinent in the circumstances).

      Imploring everyone else who supports Scottish Independence, to boycott Spain and all things Spanish – until such times as the sentences are revoked or Catalunya is Free (whichever comes sooner).

    124. Proud Cybernat says:

      IndyLive crowdfunder only at 78% and will close today.

      If you can help folks, please dig deep.

      https://indylive.radio/support-indylive/

    125. Lenny Hartley says:

      Cubby, make sure you dont throw the baby out with the bathwater, what we need is a list of stuff made in Catalonia and make sure thats the produce we purchase .
      Anybody know if there is a list available?

    126. Fergus Denoon says:

      I would say yes, Brexit is the most important thing, what do I mean by answering yes? I mean I want to abandon the entire process of “Brexit” …”Brexit” is then … done!



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