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Hitting the fans

Posted on December 14, 2019 by

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  1. 14 12 19 07:56

    Hitting the fans | speymouth

  2. 15 12 19 12:53

    Hitting the fans - Spotile

427 to “Hitting the fans”

  1. Les Wilson says:

    Indeed Chris, he has a shit storm coming, and from many directions.
    Excellent as per usual.

  2. Ian Foulds says:


  3. Swami Backverandah says:

    Someone’s been polishing that turd.

  4. Robert Louis says:

    Excellent cartoon. The splattering mess, when it comes will hit Eng;land hard.

    Many in the media have not noticed the changes happening in Scotland AND N.Ireland.

    England will get it’s racist bigotted small-minded brexit, but it will lose Scotland and N.Ireland. Judging by their attitude however, it seems most in England, couldn’t give a flying f***, if that is what happens. Good. Staying ruled by these English racist bigots would be intolerable.

    Independence is now the ONLY route.

    Now it is over to the SNP. They now have the mandates of mandates for independence. Time to put up or shut up. I lent them my support in the run up to the election and on polling day, and I want action. Not in a year, not in a ‘few months’, but NOW.

    So, let’s see. Is NS up to it? Or were her promises like those of Johnson, the clown prime minister? No more excuses. No more procastination. The whole freaking world, and especially the EU, is watching.

    We are watching and waiting.

  5. Geoff Huijer says:


  6. MajorBloodnok says:

    Great minds think alike and all that, but by a remarkable conincidence the ever innovative Mystic Mons Meg has, in this month’s issue of iScot magazine (#58), chosen to divine the future by considering what piles of dogshit can tell us about the Conservatives.

  7. Truth says:

    Just look at that big dod of Boris.

  8. jimnarlene says:

    Brilliant as ever.

  9. ahundredthidiot says:

    The time to gamble will soon be upon us. To add to this fan distributing shit the timing needs to be spot on – when the path ahead is clear that BJ will deny a Section 30 (for sure) – we recall 48 MPs to Scotland for the remainder of the 5 year term and launch the legal battle.

    This will be the ‘raising the head’ moment we have been waiting for.

    Then, with a Wings Party mopping up List Votes in 2021 – London Power will be forced to concede, not least because we will have completely worn down the good people of England – just like Brexit did.

    Let’s learn from our opponents weaknesses and exploit them.

  10. X_Sticks says:

    It’s going to get messy. And dirty. Very, very dirty.

  11. Ottomanboi says:

    The rebellious Scots to marginalize…i
    Not we trust on Nicola Sturgeon’s watch. The Johnson tectonic shift occurred in England. The consolidation around a renewed sense of a one nation English identity, effectively a retro view English nationalism, is our opportunity. Possessing the nous, the skill, the chutzpah to exploit that opportunity is ours.
    The path is clear for the nationalist bulldozers. We need drivers with ‘devil may care’ political bravura. Bring on superhero Sturgeon?
    This struggle is now personal.

  12. Conan the Librarian says:

    But thair’s mair nor a roch wind blawin…

  13. Famous15 says:

    I am borrowing from Trump supporters when I get down on my knees and pray to the Lord Jesus.

    “Dear Jesus we ask you to forgive our southern brethren. They know not what they do.”

    And then switch to Style of Robert Burns in Holly Willy Whatsit and in the voice of that well known snake oil salesman Jaxon Carsales.

    “Lord for me and mone save us your loved ones etc etc we didnae ken.


  14. Joe says:

    You hope…

  15. Dorothy Devine says:

    That’s the one good thing about the Tory triumph , they will have to own every mess and piece of crap that is coming at them.

    All those countries and folk that they have treated with casual racism , arrogance and ignorance must be salivating at the thought of payback time.

  16. Wee Alex says:

    Mordo Fraser on radio, squirming to justify 43% for the Tories is better than 45% for SNP. Green vote wasn’t high but its ignores in the round.

    Can we have him as leader please, every utterance from him just adds support for a 2nd vote for Indie.

    Queens speech will be interesting.

  17. Frank Gillougley says:

    Now that’s some image. You’re a brave man, chris, to even think of having to draw that. It”s a belter.

    Yeh once the complicit toadying media hype vanishes, here is another timeless stark reality: Matthew 7:15-20 !!!

    We’ve been here before.

  18. thingy says:


  19. Defo says:

    Is that one of The Donald’s excretions?
    He’s got a trade deal lined up, an offer London can’t refuse, and I mean can’t.
    The globe is heading for a three way economic split, & we happened to be in, and live next to the least oppressive block.
    Expect no sentimental treatment from the ‘special relationship ‘, it’s business.
    Airstrip 1 here we come, no idea if it’s Eurasia we’re at war with first, but Auntie will let us know nearer the time.

  20. Willie says:

    The cartoon for me brings into sharp focus how with the shit hitting the fan the time is now right to take independence.

    The people of Scotland voted to remain in the EU, They have tome after time through the democratic process reinforced that they do not accept Conservative rule.

    What part of this democratic mandate do fuckers like Johnson and his ilk not understand. Does he really think that things can go on and do as he wishes. He’s maybe got the troops but to every Tory bastard who would deny democracy, let them remember that they have to try and govern the society that they seek to dominate.

    Time we stood up in the eyes of the world and asserted our rights.

    Nicola Sturgeon made a very good statement yesterday on the very clear message that she would not accept the restrictions on the right to choose our own path. The starting gun has been fired, the fuse has been primed. Johnson and his ilk will not prevail.

    Well they cannot go on

    These bastards aFuck democracy and they will be in turn fucked, and fucked well.

  21. Dan says:

    Ooh, that’s a stinker!

    To ever so slightly paraphrase Reggie Watts.

    You take some shit, put it up on the wall, check it out for a while
    You take that shit, up off of the wall, put it down on the floor, in a glass bowl
    You take some fuck, put it up on the wall, where the shit used to be
    You take that fuck, up off of the wall, put it down on the floor, with the shit in a glass bowl
    What? Yo! Here’s another little piece of advice
    You take some fuck, then some shit, then some fuck, then some shit
    You got a fuck shit stack, a fuck shit stack
    You take some fuck, then some shit, then some fuck, then some shit
    You got a fuck shit stack, a fuck shit stack
    It’s a stack of fuck shit on top of itself Boris

  22. Jon Drummond says:

    Yer cartoon’s a pile o’ shite, Chris.

    I’ll get ma jaiket…

  23. dakk says:

    Perfectly created Chris, and funny too.

    Fine art indeed.

    Destined for the National Gallery of a soon to be independent Scotland I would proffer.

  24. Marcia says:

    That is the best cartoon that sums it up. The new Tory intake will include a lot of nutcases that never expected or their central party hoped wouldn’t get elected.

  25. Valerie says:

    That’s excellent.

    This is one of those watershed moments when the waverers will have to reassess – the Union of Boris or EU? The numbers couldn’t be any better, and I’m very sure SNP have war gamed Boris refusing the S30, so they are ready for what’s ahead.

    We KNOW we are being dragged out of EU for sure now, and we only have a few months of transition to organise, so Scotgov needs to keep up relentless pressure now.

    I think we will be getting a walk out of our 48 too, at a crucial point, to underline our futile, doomed relationship.

    Meanwhile, we can spectate Labour imploding.

    Early Christmas, right enough.

  26. gus1940 says:

    Brilliant cartoon.

    Has Chris ever thought of submitting his cartoons to Private Eye?

    They have recently significantly increased the number of cartoons in each issue many of which have terrible draughtsmanship and are pathetically unfunny.

    I know that PE is anti indy but surely the ones like today’s would be of interest to them.

  27. Jock McDonnell says:

    @Liz g – re Salmond & Soubry – it was an episode of Marr – not sure of when, I think it was post 2015 when Eck was back in the HoC. I just thought she looked childish doing that, but that aside, she was less disagreeable than many of the tories.

  28. The Man in the Jar says:

    “A man (or woman) does good business when they rid themselves of a turd.”

    HT, Edward I

  29. Gary45% says:

    Genius Chris.
    Nice One.

  30. mike cassidy says:

    Salmond And Soubry March 2015

    Salmond And Soubry June 2015

  31. Capella says:

    Dearie me – I wish could get that image out of my head. But a perfect pictorial pun for our times.

  32. Bugger le Panda says:

    For a few moments I thought you had pioneered smelly identic cartooning.

    Just me I found out with some brussels sprouts I had last night.

  33. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Valerie @ 10:05:

    This is one of those watershed moments when the waverers will have to reassess

    Yes, absolutely. It’s crunch time now.

    Since it appears that BoZo’s waffle about “one nation” is a hint of an intention to impose English nationalism on we poor unfortunates who aren’t naturally blessed by it, and since this is backed up by his evident intent to also curtail the constitutional power of the judiciary, thereby (incidentally or not) locking Scotland out of a clean exit path, we had better get an urgent move on now before he has much opportunity to deploy all these extra powers he’ll be getting.

    I don’t know whether he (and Cummings) are simply addicted to high-stakes gambling, or if he really is a pig-ignorant English exceptionalist (a proud tradition). but he’s really going to be playing with constitutional fire (or something else, apropos Chris’s cartoon) if he takes on the power of the Scots legal establishment, Scots Law being one of the other pillars besides free trade guaranteed by the Treaty of Union.

    Yes, there’s a lot of people going to have their fond illusions about their position in society challenged in the near future, so we had better get started right now. Events are in motion and we can’t afford to delay or we will simply be overtaken (and overwhelmed) by those created by others.

  34. Tinto Chiel says:

    Every time my wee granddaughter fills her nappy I call it “doing a Boris”.

    She’ll be talking soon.

    Am I a Bad Grampa?

  35. kapelmeister says:

    Get Brexit Dung!

  36. Phronesis says:

    From the FT

    ‘Boris Johnson channels Disraeli as he fights to keep one nation intact
    In the years before his ascendancy Mr Johnson told colleagues he was going into politics because “no one ever put up a statue of a journalist”. He now has the chance to be one of the UK’s most consequential leaders. Many still question whether, for his campaigning brilliance, he is really up to the task. But if he is, he will deserve his monument’

    ‘Boris Johnson has reshaped the UK’s political landscape At his moment of maximum power, the Conservative leader must choose to govern for all’

    Like Disraeli who championed Tory democracy and imperialism Johnson has climbed to the top of the greasy pole but the fall from such a height can be very painful.

    Scotland -a soon to be independent country that is shaping its own landscape – will of course build the statue that he desperately craves, as the last Prime Minister of the UK.

  37. admiral says:

    Johnson made it clear that the so-called “United” Kingdom is now irrevocably divided – his “one nation” speech consciously and deliberately encompassed only the west of Wales to the east of England and the north of England to the south of England. Scotland and Northern Ireland were consciously and deliberately excluded.

    This needs to be picked up by the Yes movement and hammered home at every opportunity – someone with the ability to do a video with graphics of his speech with the map of the “United” Kingdom’ one nation being delineated as he speaks?

  38. Clapper57 says:


    Caroline Flint Pro Brexit -voted with Tories- lost her voters decided better to go with an ACTUAL Tory rather than a Poundshop one.

    Willie Rennie interpreting Jo Swinson losing her seat as actually SACRIFICING her seat for her ‘principles’…some small consolation for all of the other candidates to know they did not LOSE their seats but actually SACRIFICED their seats for their principles….still fecken lost their seats did Jo the leader of Lib Dems of 4 months… Lol

    Jackson Carlaw who 100% campaigned for the ‘Union’ in this election and whose candidates in Scotland leaflets had MORE about ‘Say No to another ‘divisive’ Indy Ref’ than their own ( non existant) policies now trying to convince no one but those who worship at the altar of lies that this was NOT the basis of his campaign in Scotland….but was instead a mass hallucination suffered by Scots in receipt of Tory candidates GE leaflets AND that we, the Scottish public, were simply hearing voices when he spoke on the telly and reinforced the message that this election is Scotland was about saying No to Nicola and saving the Union…well we might as well have been hallucinating and hearing voices because neither of his messages resonated with the majority of Scots..48 SNP seats won Jackson…Lol

    Lucinda Berger lost her seat in a constituency with a population of over 20% Jewish people…she left the Labour party because of Antisemitism ‘induced’ by Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership unfortunately the ‘safe’ constituency she chose to stand in as a Lib Dem decided that they would ‘sacrifice’ her for her ‘principles’ by NOT electing her….Lol

    Tom Harris who tried to convince SCOTS (Lol) to vote Tory…and SCOTS said NO Thanks Tom….ya Red Tory…so another Fail for Tom who was in charge of Brexit Pro Leave in Scotland…when will he listen to Scots….that’s twice they have rejected his direction and went in the opposite direction ….WTF will he ask us to do next…hopefully he will have some involvement in the new BT campaign so that he can be a three time loser Lol

    The above list in not exhaustive …..irony and ya get what you deserve is something one can savour at leisure…

    ps. Alex Cole Hamilton sarcastically tweeting Nicola ‘classy’ when Nicola’s misrepresented reaction via Sky News on Amy winning Jo Swinson’s seat…this…the same Alex who smeared a person from an opposing political party ( Michelle Thomson SNP) on HIS election leaflets to gain a seat…now classy is a proven term Alex is a stranger too…like other Lib Dems he prefers to choose the path that leads straight down into the gutter…as it will ever be.

    Scotland said NO to Unionist politicians and their parties via a majority in this and previous elections…so when will the Unionists politicians and their parties listen to what Scots have to say about what THEY actually want…perhaps time peeps like Willie admitted twas time his principles were long overdue to be….sacrificed…in the context of the (non) Union ?

  39. Josef Ó Luain says:

    If those forty-eight SNP MPs take their seats at Westminster, to my mind that will only legitimate the status-quo that we all say we reject and take us absolutely nowhere. Legalists, gradualists and those of a timid-disposition need only check the Parliamentary arithmetic to see the futility of engaging in business-as-usual.

    Was it only me who noticed a certain “edge” to the questions being put to the SNP rep from the audience on last-night’s Question Time? *Could an Independent Scotland support itself?” FFF!

  40. Clapper57 says:

    @ Me @ 11.19am

    reinforced the message that this election ‘IS’ Scotland was about saying No to Nicola and saving the Union

    Typo replace ‘IS’ with IN…Lol

  41. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Clapper57 @ 11:19,

    Yes, why vote for the monkey when you can vote for the organ grinder? Obvious really.

    Labour went seriously awry by thinking it could face both ways, and all it did was please neither side. (A lesson which the SNP leadership thankfully learnt and understood, despite some siren voices to the contrary, including some on here.) You never beat reactionary attitudes by seeking to appease them. All that achieves is to validate their extremes and provide a later rod for your own back. If you have to lose, better to go down fighting for real principles (and not FibDem non-ones). You might then even surprise yourself by not losing at all.

    Jackson Carlaw. =sigh= The Tories are going to get a lot of sprained backs from all those goalposts they keep moving. Totally pathetic. (Reminds me of that scene in Les vacances de M. Hulot near the start where people have to rush to keep changing platforms as the announcements keep changing. It’s funny in the film, and just as laughable in real life.)

    We need more Bernard Ponsonby-style mettle from the media over their absurd antics.

  42. Sharny Dubs says:

    Let’s just make sure when we finally separate for good we don’t have any of that sticking to our shoes.

  43. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Josef Ó Luain @ 11:21,

    I think that inevitable question can and should be directly tackled without faffing-around by simply responding: “How could a country like Scotland possibly not prosper? What makes you even doubt it? Just look around you at all the Scotland-sized European countries, and see that they are all doing quite nicely, thank-you-very-much. And they don’t even have a fraction of our natural resources. The only thing that’s wrong with Scotland is that it’s been managed for far too long by far-off don’t-care incompetents in London.”

  44. callmedave says:

    Aye! There will be a strange odour over England and some parts of the Scottish borders for the next few years but we must endure!

    Heard shortbread this morning when a politician from each of the four main parties in Scotland were ‘quizzed’

    Derek Mackay playing a straight bat to Brewer’s but!… but Derek if Boris says “No”. I can’t bear that for two more years. 🙁

    Murdo bigging up the last refuge of Unionism. Boris said No and the new smug retort of vote share, vote share is what counts.

    A pissed-off Neil Findlay (out going MSP) trying to get a word in edgewise with Isobel Fraser heckling him every few seconds on Jeremy’s performance and that ‘Ricky Leopard’ guy whose jaicket must be on a shoogly peg.

    He at least said the in his personal opinion if the SNP win a majority in 2012 then Indi-ref2 should go ahead although he stressed not Labour policy. He’ll be offsky!

    There was a Lib/Dem woman (not wee wullie) but I got confused about what she was trying to say, really I did. 🙂

    There was a another professor on later who said the Supreme Court will find in favour of Westminster so don’t bother going there Scotland. Let and Canada and Catalonia be your guide. 🙁
    Bet he had his fingers X’d as he was speaking it.

    Same old start to the day then. Oh flat tyre when I went out to the car.


    The National: Results page with all the Scottish GE results
    NE Fife: SNP Hold! “Shurley schome mistake”

    But they gave the correct figures underneath a Lib/Dem win.

  45. jfngw says:

    Adam Tompkins thinks Boris ‘I spread my seed widely’ Johnson is now going to see off Nicola Sturgeon. Well he only has to increase the number of Tory seats by around 40%, let’s see how he goes. This is a man that was too much of a coward to debate with her as it would have exposed his ineptitude, only wanted to debate with men he found inferior. Fits into to his MO, racist, bigoted, lying, do we need to add misogynist to the list, you may think so I couldn’t possibly comment.

  46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 11:48,

    The real question behind it is of course always unsaid, and it’s: “Can we handle the responsibility of taking charge of our own affairs, or should we just bottle it, funk the worrisome challenge and rely on somebody else we can then blame?”.

    Institutionalised thinking. The outside world is too much, so please, please lock us up again so we don’t have to deal with any of it.

  47. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    jfngw @ 11:54,

    I think he may be making the biggest mistake of his shambolic career if he assumes in his exceptionalist-chauvinist way that he can easily deal with “the wee wumman” by simply ignoring and talking over her.

    Because “the nippy sweetie” represents us all. And we’re no longer prepared to be talked over. Not least our womenfolk.

  48. jfngw says:

    All we need now is the EU to state they would accept Scotland as the successor state and be accepted to push a few more to Yes. I suspect some are reluctant to vote Yes without some assurance of Scotland’s future. This would be a positive message and what has the EU gt to lose now, they are already having to negotiate with a rogue state.

  49. Elmac says:

    jfngw @ 11.54

    You missed out bullying, corrupt and criminal.

  50. Effijy says:

    The First Ministers’ Independence potion was struggling to reach
    The target 300,000 signatures after some months and 8,000 short
    With just days until the election.

    I am deleted to report that it is roaring through the 404,000 mark
    And moving faster that the high speed train England wants Scotland
    To pay for. Over 100,000 signatures in just a few days.

  51. jfngw says:

    The unionist move the goalposts every time the last red line is breached. First it was there needs to be majority of MSP’s, once breached it then became a majority of SNP MSP’s, now it has moved onto more than 50% of the votes cast. Once this is breached it will move onto more then 67% of the votes cast, if this is breached it will become a percentage of the total on the electoral role.

    Whatever the circumstances they will move the criteria if the last one is breached. It’s time to stop playing their game, we decide what the criteria is and once achieved we declare independence.

  52. Gary45% says:

    I’ve tried clicking on the pledge button and nothing happens, anyone else having problems?

  53. Mist001 says:

    I’ll say this though, Johnson talks a good game and is very convincing in the way he says things. I’m willing to give him a chance and see if he really is different prom previous PMs.

    I still want independence and action from NS and the SNP to achieve it though.

  54. CM says:

    The International Court of Justice, in a 2010 advisory opinion, declared that unilateral declarations of independence were not illegal under international law.

  55. One_Scot says:

    All I can say about Boris Johnson is, if he does not give Scotland at least the opportunity to have a say on whether or not we want to be dragged out of the EU with him, then fuck him.

  56. ahundredthidiot says:


    I had you down for a mug, thanks for proving it.

  57. ahundredthidiot says:

    Bojo – I like to keep things simple…

    Would you employ him in your own personal business?

    Would you trust him with overall responsibility with your bank account?

    Would you trust him on a night out with your misses?

    would you let him and his lawyer write your Will for you and keep it in confidence?

    would you fuck. Simple.

  58. kapelmeister says:

    The tabloids are reporting that Airmiles has been using the pseudonym Andrew Inverness to secretly set up companies with pals or when becoming a director of others. Apparently he’s the Earl of Inverness.

    Folks in the Highlands capital must be less than chuffed he chose their city’s name for his dodgy business dealings.

  59. winifred mccartney says:

    Need to remind every tory talking about not having 50% of vote that snp have higher percentage than Boris and if some people in Scotland ‘lent’ their vote to snp many, many more in England lent theirs to tories. So if we don’t have a mandate then neither do they.

    It cannot be denied however that the conservative branch office in Scotland ran on one platform No to indy2 and thoroughly lost – as someone above says they will just keep changing the goal posts – there is no honour or honesty in any one of them. They have nothing left to defend the union with – the argument is lost and they know it so they have to play dirty as usual.

    Therefore we have to be even more determined than ever and stand up and be counted.

  60. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Mist001 @ 12:17,

    Trust BoJo? Really? Truly thou jesteth!

    I might just about believe his good faith if he were to call up Nicola on Monday and say “we each have our strong mandates, and they’re so diametrically different that the only reasonable way forward now is for our two countries to separate amicably and remain the best of friends”. But does he have any intention of having a Czech-Slovak-style “velvet divorce”? No, it’s the exact opposite, he clearly wants to keep us forcibly in his English exceptionalist jail.

    Do you think WoS a big neon sign with “here be idiots” flashing on it? That’s the last shreds of your shaky credibility gone for a Burton.

  61. callmedave says:

    jfngw says

    The unionist move the goalposts every time the last red line is breached.
    Aye! Soon it will be but…but!…60% of Scots buy ‘British beef’ wie the union jack on the wrapper…so no independence for you’s 🙂

    Windows update last night..FGS!
    All my Calvin and Hobes themes deleted and a microsoft umbrellas montage in it’s place and all my tabs coloured blue.

    Little tab appeared there asking me please let microsoft get access to your screen camera. (which is always switched off) 🙂

    Search Engine list now got ‘Bing’ back in again. 🙁

    Away into the gubbins to do some rooting around.

    I may be gone for some time! Technology.

  62. PacMan says:

    I’ve been thinking over the Rev’s article from yesterday about the SNP GE strategy and I have disagree with it.

    A commenter yesterday made a good point about needing to win over the Edinburgh money folk in order to win independence. In that way, the economic case of independence needs to be made and the way to do that is to appeal to this group’s self-interest.

    Independence simply can’t be about things staying the same and the only difference being of changing one flag for another. A way to get round this is Europe.

    The biggest argument is staying in Europe is being protected by the strength of the EU from the ravages of the race to the bottom globalism. However, there needs to be a bit of boldness in the aspiration that an independent Scotland will adopt the Euro currency.

    The GBP is strong at the moment but that is because of the city of London being one of the biggest hubs of the global financial markets. Long term, Brexit will harm the importance of London as a global financial market and in turn will affect the GBP. An independent Scotland willing to adopt the Euro will mitigate the weakened GBP for the people of Scotland.

    Put that to the people of Scotland and for most of us who go to holiday in Europe, it will remove the worry of holiday costs due to currency speculations. With the money folk, they can have the comfort that their investments and pensions are in a long term stable currency.

    It is a win/win situation that can keep all sides of the independence movement happy and incentivise no voters to come on board because it appeals to their self-interest.

  63. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    14 December, 2019 at 12:02 pm
    All we need now is the EU to state they would accept Scotland as the successor state and be accepted to push a few more to Yes…

    Scotland would not be a successor state. The UK is a Union of Constitutional equals! Thus when the Union ceases to exist, Scotland and England will revert to being Constitutional equals.

    The perception that Scotland would be any the lesser status than England is wrong, although Westminster would like to assert that England would be a Continuer State, and Scotland would be the successor, it is constitutionally unsound. We will separate as equals, and nothing short of Constitutional equals.

  64. PacMan says:

    Mist001 says: 14 December, 2019 at 12:17 pm

    I’ll say this though, Johnson talks a good game and is very convincing in the way he says things. I’m willing to give him a chance and see if he really is different prom previous PMs.

    His character and past deeds doesn’t inspire confidence. I have no doubt that his vanity will ensure he will do enough to ensure his future legacy isn’t tarnished but he will never the right thing and to think otherwise is bordering on naivety.

  65. PacMan says:

    ahundredthidiot @ 14 December, 2019 at 12:27 pm

    Would you trust him on a night out with your misses?

    You couldn’t trust him with your daughter, mother or grandmother 🙂

  66. kapelmeister says:

    That is the most relevant cartoon depiction of BoJo.

    When he comes north to take our parliament away we’ll send him homeward tae stink again.

  67. PacMan says:

    callmedave says 14 December, 2019 at 12:37 pm

    Windows update last night..FGS!
    All my Calvin and Hobes themes deleted and a microsoft umbrellas montage in it’s place and all my tabs coloured blue.

    Little tab appeared there asking me please let microsoft get access to your screen camera. (which is always switched off) ?

    Search Engine list now got ‘Bing’ back in again. ?

    Away into the gubbins to do some rooting around.

    I may be gone for some time! Technology.

    Switch to Linux. You know it makes sense 🙂

  68. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    callmedave @ 12:37,

    O/T Switch to Linux (Mint+Cinnamon is really very good looking and perfectly usable) and you’ll never look back. Really.

  69. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    PacMan @:48,


  70. Republicofscotland says:

    Good one Chris, and very true.

    We need to be vigilant of Boris Johnson undertaking a charm offensive North of the Border, in which the bias media attempts to reinforce any false promises he makes in an attempt to woo soft yes voters back over to remaining in this now defunct union.

    Now is the time to carry out our own charm offensive by speaking to (in a polite manner) disillusioned Labour, LibDem and even soft Tory voters in Scotland, and pointing out the benefits of independence now that Brexit is somewhat but not quite out of the way.

  71. Breeks says:

    winifred mccartney says:
    14 December, 2019 at 12:30 pm
    Need to remind every tory talking about not having 50% of vote that snp have higher percentage than Boris and if some people in Scotland ‘lent’ their vote to snp many, many more in England lent theirs to tories. ….

    I want to remind folks that Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is a definitive legal status, unalterable by ephemeral democratic mandates. Our voting No in 2014 was every inch as sovereign as a YES would have been.

    We do not need any ‘mandate’ to be sovereign, nor to become sovereign, we ARE sovereign.

  72. Valerie says:

    @ Robert J 11.40

    Labour folk performing live autopsy on Twitter simply can’t grasp that simple truth of voting for the organ grinder of Brexit.

    We had Len MCluskey and the rest of the Corbyn coterie trumpeting Lexit (Owen Jones, Bastani etc) then the confused 2nd vote, 2nd Deal extension period, with no Corbyn position being promoted as “strategy” ffs.

    As with independence, Labour sided with Tories, not opposed, or even constructed a coherent position of their own.

    Of course, in the absence of a vicious deconstruction of Brexit, Northerners said, I voted Brexit, we just need to do it, because Labour aren’t saying its bad, just they would do it different by dragging it out.

    The contortions of Corbynistas on Twitter is painful. Len McCluskey threw his creature under a bus last night citing “incontinent rash of policies”. I almost feel sorry for the old duffer plucked from the back benches to fashion as a weapon for the Blairites.

    Almost, because these are people’s lives at stake, and I’ve already read of one suicide down to the election results.

  73. Republicofscotland says:

    “I’m willing to give him a chance and see if he really is different prom previous PMs.”

    Hmm….someones clearly forgotten about a certain poem that Johnson lauded, which involved exterminating Scots, and forcing the remaining ones into ghettos.

    Don’t be fooled his words.

  74. PacMan says:

    obert J. Sutherland says: 14 December, 2019 at 11:48 am

    I think that inevitable question can and should be directly tackled without faffing-around by simply responding: “How could a country like Scotland possibly not prosper? What makes you even doubt it?

    Labour got routed the other night. They are in third place in the Scottish parliament and show no signs of recovery. They are heading to oblivion.

    In doing this, we as a nation are rejecting the idealogical deadwood that is Labour. Unless they radically change, they have no place in an independent Scotland. Isn’t that enough to inspire confidence that we are capable of successfully running our own affairs?

  75. Dr Jim says:

    Where is *the country* it’s not where we are because we are Scotland and that’s not in *the country*
    Today the Prime Minister is touring *the North* of *the country* says the news, but that North is not Scotland because we’re not in the North, somewhere in England is the North, again because we’re Scotland and according to everyone in the political sphere and media Scotland is, well Scotland and Scotland as a place doesn’t appear to be anywhere until it’s a separate place

    Scotland, a place to demonise with people in it to demonise with politicians to ridicule or accuse of theft or to fear,
    especially our choice of leader who isn’t tall enough to be a proper leader, a woman, and she wears shoes

    It’s not only men who have a serious problem with women leaders, women have a problem with them too because a thousand years haven’t passed quickly enough so that brain evolution can catch up with people who still think politicians should be tall Englishmen in suits

    The time has now come for the politics of England to erase Scotland without anybody noticing (in England that is) and they do that by making Scotland invisible on the telly, we’ve seen them do it time and time again but will they manage it this time, I don’t think so because the wee annoying woman who’s got the big job in Scotland, like Scottish women everywhere has got *a bee in her bonnet* and we all know when a Scottish woman decides she’s having a row with somebody it’s going to happen and hell mend anyone nearbye getting in her way because they’re all going to be part of the ensuing mayhem

    Scotlands no tall enough woman leader has got chums who are leaders of other countries and they’re women too and the political leader of England can’t deal with women he runs away from them, mostly after he had a go at sexually replacing his Mummy with them but nevertheless he legs it PDQ

    Boris Johnson is about to be hounded by Scotlands woman leader and she’ll do it using the very media he controls and she’ll be like the hoover round his feet every time he sits down to watch the game until he says YES OK please leave me in peace and then we’ll all be happy to leave England, which is *the country* in peace

  76. jfngw says:


    You can declare this if you want but it needs the EU to accept this position. Currently it does not look like they do.

    Also the successor state is a reference to membership of the EU as being admitted as the state that was the EU member as the UK. Nothing I wrote said Scotland was inferior to England. I think we are trying to persuade people to move to Yes, not trying to prove we are pedantic language police.

  77. PacMan says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says: 14 December, 2019 at 12:50 pm

    PacMan @:48,


    I do everything on Ubuntu Linux but I’ve started getting into music production as a hobby and need to use Windows because the established plugin format is VST which is guaranteed to work natively on Linux. I can’t believe how bad Windows updates are. On Linux, updates takes between seconds and a few minutes depending on size but on Windows you need to wait ages for downloads, long periods for updates to be applied and then multiple reboots for them to take effect. Don’t get me started on privacy. I know you can turn of telemetry but does that really stop M$ from collecting your data?

    Anybody who uses a PC for basic internet browsing is mad not to switch to Linux. It is such a better and smoother experience.

  78. callmedave says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says:
    14 December, 2019 at 12:50 pm
    PacMan @:48,

    OK Thanks: I also see that my fire fox has been wiped too which I installed a couple of years ago. The ba*+*rds!

    Reading up on Linux now
    Will give it a go tonight.

    @Dr Jim :

    I liked bit this a lot in your post.

    Boris Johnson is about to be hounded by Scotlands woman leader and she’ll do it using the very media he controls and she’ll be like the hoover round his feet every time he sits down to watch the game until he says YES OK please leave me in peace and then we’ll all be happy to leave England, which is *the country* in peace

  79. jfngw says:


    I’ve been using Linux Mint for years now, prefer the Cinnamon interface to the Ubuntu one. I have Windows 10 installed as a virtual machine using Virtualbox for any software that I need and can only run in Windows.

    If you are a heavy games user I would probably stick with Windows. Also if you buy a cutting edge machine you may find the drivers are not yet available for some hardware.

  80. mike cassidy says:

    So all those who think the result on Thursday is the proverbial watershed.

    That when English workingclass people on the receiving end of almost a decade of brutal tory austerity vote in an amoral, lying tory charlatan to lead them for another five years

    Its time to say that Great Britain/United Kingdom is no longer fit for purpose

    The smell of independence is in the air.

    One indyref2 to go, please.

    One question.

    What incentive is there for that amoral, lying, tory charlatan to go along with such a referendum.

    Cos unless you can come up with at least one

    We’re going to be sitting here five years from now.

    And if a week is a long time in politics

    Those five years are going to make Dante’s trip to hell seem like a dream holiday in Ibiza.

  81. Joe says:

    Robert J. Sutherland says:
    14 December, 2019 at 12:00 pm
    jfngw @ 11:54,

    I think he may be making the biggest mistake of his shambolic career if he assumes in his exceptionalist-chauvinist way that he can easily deal with “the wee wumman” by simply ignoring and talking over her.

    Because “the nippy sweetie” represents us all. And we’re no longer prepared to be talked over. Not least our womenfolk.

    But if those same women folk dare to assume to have a monopoly on womens reproductive organs then they can git tae fuck. Right?

    Wait. What do you mean im talking shite? Anyone who voted for SNP tacitly supported this, regardless of any high and mighty indy reasons.

    Honestly. WOS comments section is a festival of utter fucking stupidity. I guess it mirrors the general progressive ‘Yes’ movement quite well.

  82. mike cassidy says:

    Former Ulster Unionist Party leader Mike Nesbitt in a BBC interview tonight-
    “The great irony of all of this is that for decades unionists have looked over their shoulders and decided that Irish nationalists were the great threat…but actually it’s English nationalism”

  83. Republicofscotland says:

    This is interesting.

    “Article 18 of the Smith Commission Report, to which all UK parties agreed, is below.
    There was, so far as I recall, no Article 18(a) stating, “Of course, we won’t allow them to choose.”

  84. PacMan says:

    callmedave says:14 December, 2019 at 1:20 pm

    PacMan @:48,

    OK Thanks: I also see that my fire fox has been wiped too which I installed a couple of years ago. The ba*+*rds!

    Reading up on Linux now
    Will give it a go tonight.

    Linux can be installed on Windows using Virtualisation software. This is an easy way to try out Linux to see if you like it. As jfngw mentioned, you can do this with Virtualbox which IMHO is the easiest way to do things.

    My preferred option is to have a copy of Linux and Windows on my PC where I have the option of booting into any of these operating systems when I turn on my PC. That is a bit more complicated because with modern PC’s, you have to go into your PC BIOS settings and switch from UEFI to legacy boot support. If you have a well known PC brand, there are plenty of tutorials which gives you step by step guides on how to do this. Once done, installing Linux is a fairly easy process, although partitioning your PC’s hard drive is a bit daunting for the first-timer . If you have a tablet as well, it makes the first time process easier as the tablet will allow you to access the internet to deal with any queries you have.

  85. bookie from hell says:

    scottish labour on death bed

  86. Capella says:

    Excellent explanation of exit polls by the people who designed and refined the one used by the BBC/ITV on election nights.

    I posted a comment on this on the previous thread wondering why they turned out to be so wrong in Scotland. Link for the anoraks among you.

  87. PacMan says:

    jfngw says: 14 December, 2019 at 1:27 pm


    I’ve been using Linux Mint for years now, prefer the Cinnamon interface to the Ubuntu one. I have Windows 10 installed as a virtual machine using Virtualbox for any software that I need and can only run in Windows.

    If you are a heavy games user I would probably stick with Windows. Also if you buy a cutting edge machine you may find the drivers are not yet available for some hardware.

    I got a new PC with a SSD/normal Hard drive and use Lubuntu. I can’t shake the habit of using a login option of having to take in my password but even at that, it is so much quicker than logging into Windows without the password login option.

    I’m not a gamer and only use Windows because of VST plugin support. Linux has enough native plugin support of it’s own but as always, documentation on Linux is scarce so it’s easier to use Windows. I’ve read that with music production you only need a handful of plugins so once I learn the ropes and know what I want from the music, I’ll be going back to Linux for that purpose.

  88. Scott says:

    As we leave the EU on the 31fs Jan 2020 I wonder what happens to this does Boris cancel this deal and stop foreign boats fishing in our waters??
    Answers Please.

  89. Macart says:

    That’s as perfect an image of the current state of the political situation as you’re likely to find anywhere.

  90. jfngw says:

    Herd they are thinking of remaking Star Trek TNG: Chain of Command (revised script)

    MADRED: Good morning. I trust you slept well?
    (Picard taken down. He can’t lower his arms completely. Madred pours a drink from a flask)
    MADRED: Thirsty? I would imagine so. Well, It’s time to move on.
    PICARD: I’ve told you all that I know.
    MADRED: Yes, I’m sure you have. (he reveals on four torso’s behind his desk) How many penis’s do you see there?
    PICARD: I see four penis’s.
    MADRED: No, there are three. Are you quite sure?
    PICARD: There are four penis’s.
    MADRED: Perhaps you’re aware of the incision on your chest. While you were under the influence of our drugs, you were implanted with a small device. It’s a remarkable invention. By entering commands in this PADD, I can produce pain in any part of your body at various levels of severity. Forgive me. I don’t enjoy this but I must demonstrate. It will make everything clearer.
    (Picard falls to his knees in agony)
    MADRED: Surprising, isn’t it? Most people feel at first that they can steel themselves against it but they’re completely unprepared for the intensity of the pain. That was the lowest possible setting.
    PICARD: I know nothing about Minos Korva.
    MADRED: But I’ve told you that I believe you. I didn’t ask you about Minos Korva. I asked how many penis’s you see.
    PICARD: There are four penis’s.
    MADRED: I don’t understand how you can be so mistaken

  91. Dr Jim says:

    The theme running through todays hatred is the the First Minister and the SNP have no right to celebrate their political victory

    If the Unionists celebrate it’s fine but if Scotland dares to do the same we have no class apparently

    Speaking of class did you know that Jo Swinson Tory voter and Liberal Democrat leader demanded a recount and threatened the returning officer with legal action as she had a meltdown at losing her seat in the General election, seemingly her mask slipped right aff and the full Tory experience was on vivid display to all

    The media don’t want to tell you that part they only want to show us the FM being jubilant about the two things she was happy about, young Amy Callahan winning and the unseating of an opposition leader and we should all remember how the opposition reacted when Alex Salmond lost his seat or their reaction to winning a NO vote in 2014

    So don’t talk to us about *class* especially when Tories of all colours misuse the word

  92. John says:

    I was able to pledge a few minutes ago , but it won’t let me share for some reason .

  93. Defo says:

    It would be extremely difficult to find a voter who failed to get the Torys primary manifesto offer of ‘No Indy ref’.
    They have their answer. Categorically overwhelmingly rejected.
    That’s democracy Boris, remember that?

  94. callmedave says:

    Scottish Labour officials have met to discuss the party’s future after losing all but one seat in the election.

    Shadow Scottish Secretary Lesley Laird, one of six Labour MPs to lose their seat, said there were “lessons to be learned”.

  95. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    callmedave @ 13:20,

    You obvs already have a clue, so I probably can’t add much more except to say, for any of the curious out there wanting to escape the M$ jail, you can easily try out most any common flavour of Linux these days by putting it on a bootable USB flash drive or CD and restarting with that in place. Everything you do is lost again when you shut down but it does allow a realistic tryout without touching a hair of your existing system. There are many flavours, but Mint is regarded as a good changeover for Windows users.

    Documentation for the more esoteric applications can indeed be patchy, but there are generally user communities on the internet for different applications, and people are often willing to help with questions where there are no immediate lookups.

    (There are still some limitations, but they are much less these days. As jfngw says, one can often run an existing “must-have” M$Win program on Linux either via Wine or in a virtual machine.)

    But apologies, I do digress…

  96. Sarah says:

    @ Gary45% at 12.13: have you tried the pledge on Chrome? I can only see it on Chrome – Explorer won’t let me access it.

  97. jfngw says:

    @Robert J Sutherland

    For anyone that wants to try linux there is a Virtualbox version for Windows, you can then run Linux in a virtual machine to see if it does what you want.

    I can see the Rev getting upset soon and telling us ‘this isn’t fucking technology site’. I won’t post anymore about it.

  98. Abulhaq says:

    Now is certainly the time for Scots to come to the aid of THE party.
    Differences we may have, but unity against the destructive forces of unionist colonialism is imperative. This is a struggle for our integrity as a nation and perhaps even our very survival.
    Scotland is not England’s Lebensraum, its territory, territorial waters and resources are not for appropriation.
    We must have the courage of our convictions and be prepared to go to wire.
    Mr Johnson, the game is far from over.

  99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Joe @ 13:41,

    Your would-be diversionary tactics are as pathetically passé as the Tories’ “no to IR2”.

    (Oh, and BTW did you know that you seem to have learnt your English somewhere else? There are tells. Your accent though is probably the real giveaway. Just say after me “rødgrød med fløde”. No one can pronounce it correctly except a Dane. It was a sure way the resistance in WW2 could identify German would-be impostors.)

  100. Bobp says:

    Dr jim 2.18pm. Absolutely, I love reading your posts.

  101. jfngw says:

    No doubt we will soon have the federalism option thrown into the ether and propagated by the MSM. England doesn’t want federalism, they want possession and they are not going to give it up voluntarily. Been reading Jeggit for a while now, he has always been of this opinion and those that thought WM would play the democratic game are going to be disappointed.

  102. Terry callachan says:

    On radio LBC today maajid nawaz talking about why Labour failed to get votes in the GE.

    He says that the Labour Party blamed brexit and people’s dislike of immigrants
    He calls the Labour Party racist
    He makes his case on the basis that it cannot possibly be the people of “the country” who are racist
    And he says that if Labour do not trust the will of “the people of the country”
    Then Labour must be racist for not trusting “ the people of the country”

    So his whole case rests upon “the people of the country” being correct and
    the political party that “ the people f the country “ vote for must therefore be correct
    So the losing political party must therefore be where racism has its home


    Clearly this is a ploy to make england feel better about itself
    They start from the premise that “ the people of the country “ cannot possibly be racist
    And as “ the people of the country “ voted the tories into government the tories cannot possibly be racist
    So it must be the Labour Party that is racist

    This is how england sees the world
    It’s how they engage
    If there is a problem
    It must be whoever else is involved because it cannot possibly be england ever in any circumstances

  103. Gary45% says:

    Just back in the hoose and tried the Indy pledge,
    still no joy.
    I’ve got chrome taps on the sink, how does the chrome thingy work? do I have to be touching the tap whilst pressing the computer button thingy? The wife might be no too happy if I rip the sink out the kitchen, ah sussed it I’ll take the lap top into the kitchen and try again.

  104. Terry callachan says:

    An increase in the media today showing Scottish insults
    Making fun of Scotland
    Saying our accent is not understandable etc etc

  105. Capella says:

    Iain Macwhirter has already suggested that Boris Johnston will offer the Federalism carrot. Iain Macwhirter thinks Boris thinks that Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t want a referendum next year “and he’s probably right”, says Iain. Evidence? None. In fact the opposite is clearly stated in the manifesto.

    From Stu’s twitter, probably because it echoes Stu’s belief that NS doesn’t want a referendum next year. Evidence? Umpteen recent posts categorically stating that.

  106. Gary45% says:

    Trajic Naebawz is a waste of organs, a little Zionist one record bigot, that sums him up nicely.
    Him and his ilk are the 100% reason the Labour party lost.
    I pray for Boris to declare the State of Palestine to be recognised, that’s why they went after Corbyn.
    Save your oxygen and stop listening to the Zionist prick.

  107. Sarah says:

    @ Gary45%: well, I’m no tech wizard so I hope someone else will be able to help. Pacman perhaps?

    All I can say is that I still have Explorer as my internet thing but my laptop also has a Chrome sign – a circle coloured green, yellow and red with a blue centre – that I can use for internet access too.

    I only use taps for water supply!

  108. Terry callachan says:

    In Northern Ireland people are saying that for the first time in a hundred years
    Belfast feels like an Irish city rather than a british city

    Nationalist have three of the four MPs in Belfast

    However people are moving away from the Sinn Féin / DUP choice and appear to be looking favourably to the south of Ireland and its efforts to improve transport links between north and south
    Reunification becoming more appetising to more people

  109. Terry callachan says:

    Gary 45%…4.07pm…

    I agree

    But I do like listening to LBC including nawaz because they are all crazy , racist , rude , extreme people I guess that’s why they get the job

    I like to know the opposition
    I want to know what the nutcases are thinking and saying

  110. Clapper57 says:

    Newly Tory elected MP’s in England.

    Sally-Ann Hart, now MP for Hastings+Rye, is under investigation for liking a Nazi phrase on Facebook and sharing an antisemitic slur.

    Lee Anderson, now MP for Ashfield, is under investigation for being an active member of a Facebook group where Soros conspiracies were promoted.

    NB : Lee Anderson was the wally who got filmed staging/arranging (by Michael Crick and his film crew via phone call on his mobile while still WEARING his mic) a supposed unexpected doorstep canvass at a ‘random’ household…but his phone call exposed he was talking to a ‘friend’…thus positive reaction towards Lee at the wink wink random voter’s door…who..yes was going to vote for Lee the Tory at GE…wink wink.

    Note from the above Lee being investigated re Facebook group where..SOROS …conspiracies were promoted.

    Now SNP let’s see how Tory investigation pans out…if they find Lee ‘innocent’as in swept under the carpet kind of innocent as in not punishable by suspension or expulsion even if true but not TORY true….then get Neale Hanvey back into the SNP fold…pronto…REMEMBER Ross Thomson investigation had not even BEGUN when he ‘resigned’ translate as told not being supported by his local branch…so do not hold out much hope that the above two Tories will be punished or even investigated…though one could always refer cases to Lordy John Mann as believe this is HIS remit…oops sorry he’s only investigating Labour…that’ll soon blow over once Corbyn gone…a miracle I tell you…antisemitism has disappeared would you Adam and Eve it…

  111. Kenny J says:

    Right guys.
    Anyone with today’s National, and Stu.
    Go to P11, item on a student, one Derek McArthur, explaining in 2 columns why he’s now an independentista, after voting No in 2014, along with, to me a pile of pish on Labour, old Etonians and stuff, but then I’m just wan o’ the bearrs.
    Anywho, IS THIS GUY the “RINGER” Stu highlighted 7 posts ago, Rory Scothorne.
    It sure looks the same guy, mustache, student, round glasses, lightish hair, writes pish, Labour, 30ish,has he conned the National as well as trying to conn us. If not, my apologies.
    I’m going to email the National about it.

  112. twathater says:

    Clapper57 and Dr Jim I love your posts especially the ones that make my brain fizzle trying to deconstruct them , keep on keeping on , smiley face thingy

  113. twathater says:

    Oops sorry Chris what a perfect uncomfortable vision of where Doris is

  114. Abulhaq says:

    Scottish independence is an existential issue.
    Recognition of that is a measure of our ‘fitness’.
    The right to survive and to flourish, the right above all rights.
    This is no longer just about politics.

  115. Bobp says:

    Terry callachan.3.58pm. This afternoon i went into bournemouth, going into WH smith to browse. The headlines on the gutter press were all about johnson and ‘healing’ i didnt realise i was speaking aloud when i said ‘ f**k yer uk and yer healing. I think the old daily mail buying codger next to me was in no doubt how Scots feel. ” good job the wife was at bingo.

  116. kapelmeister says:

    The BBC web pages have a pic of Nicola with the 48 in front of the V&A in Dundee.

    Scroll down a wee bit and they have the pic from 2015 with a caption saying this was when the SNP won 56 seats. They just can’t help it. It’s like an addiction for the BBC.

  117. kapelmeister says:

    I should have said the 47 of course. I’m sure Neale Hanvey will be allowed back in eventually.

  118. Bobp says:

    I’m surprised ive still got a telly, every time those dickheids come on talking about how the ” country ” voted for boris. I cannot abide even listening to those dictatorial scum and their media and bbc little helpers.

  119. HandandShrimp says:

    Hang on! Is this cartoon suggesting that Johnson is a sh…..

    Oh wait, never mind

  120. Gary45% says:

    Like yourself, I always had LBC on from approx. 7am till 6-7ish pm each day (background noise) but also to get a gauge on the “spectrum of UK punters”, but the blatant bias was too much for me. Its like the shi*ey BBC with shi*ey adverts.

  121. callmedave says:

    Election 2019: Labour consider ‘listening exercise’ after defeat

    Updated so that that guy ‘Ricky Leopard’ get his photo in the article. Auntie working on the cheap at the weekend.

  122. Gary45% says:

    Cheers for the info, I tried clearing all the cookies, but still no joy, as I am an old anolog fart, I am a bit wary of chrome, facebookythingy, twitterythingy.
    I don’t trust the spies in the control tower. (its a 70s thing man) far out and peace.

  123. Sarah says:

    @ Gary45%: we are kindred spirits! I don’t tweet and am only on Facebook because I had to for a charity I am trustee of.

    I looked at Chrome – it is Google’s own newer version of Explorer. Google keep asking me if I’d like to use Chrome instead – and sometimes I do!

    Effijy will be pleased – the pledge is now at 423,601.

  124. Dr Jim says:

    Neil Findlay said very seriously that Labour had to listen and learn from what the voters had told them, then he went on to say “The voters in England betrayed us” so he obviously said that while he was in Scotland so the English voters wouldn’t hear him, I wonder what he’ll say if he ever goes to England about the Scottish voters who told him to get stuffed as well

    Neil’s always had a fluid way with words

    That’s *talks pish* Neil, talking pish son

  125. Pete says:

    Done some serious reading of the financial press in a number of papers and they all seem to think that a wall of money is about to invest in the UK with GDP growth in 2020 forecast to be about 2.5%.
    Removal of Brexit uncertainty will turbocharge the economy.
    Unfortunately, the consensus seems to be that the Scottish economy will underperform greatly,due to the threat of indyref2.
    If this happens, it could hit the SNP popularity.
    Only conjecture, of course, but a real possibility.

  126. Dr Jim says:

    Since Alex Massie (Times journalist) made up out of his head live on telly to Kirsty Wark that Nicola Sturgeon didn’t really want a referendum in 2020 other journalists are going with the same invented story, like Ian McWhirter, you know this guy, he’s the *journalist* who writes whatever the particular paper he’s writing for wants to have written

    The problem with the BBC reporting these stories and using what we’re supposed to believe are Scottish journalists is, none of them usually are, because if they live in the elite bubble of Edinburgh society then they haven’t a clue where Scotland is, even if they dress in that pretendy bohemian fashion with little scarves and suedey hush puppies that the rest of us are supposed to think is casual apparel it denotes them for what they are Tories who don’t want to appear to be Tories so they disguise themselves to pass themselves off as regular people

    Sometimes we can be a bit thick but we’re not F…..g blind

  127. Shug says:

    Time for Conservative for fo r indy to set up
    There are plenty Conservatives horrified by thqe prospect of Boris especially once the border is up the Irish sea

  128. jfngw says:

    Read Brian Taylor’s ‘analysis’, apparently now a constitutional expert. Anyway his take would seem to be even if the SNP received 100% of the votes and 100% of the seats in Holyrood and 100% of the Scottish seats in WM it would still not be a mandate unless English MP’s allow it (not what he wrote but it is what it amounts to in his opinion).

    It would seem the Claim of Right is meaningless in his opinion, Scotland has no right to consult it citizens without London’s permission. I think we can take from that he is a devout unionist.

    P.S, Peat Warrior says his analysis is mince (my phrasing).

  129. Juteman says:

    Awa back under yir bridge, Pete.

  130. Iain mhor says:

    @Pete 7:26pm

    Meh, that’s small potatoes Pete, never fear. It’s pretty amateur and barely on the level of pre-2014. Hang on ’til they get their teeth into it.
    I look forward to: ‘With Independence, the Scottish economy will be running at such a deficit, that it will end up dividing by zero and triggering the crash of the worlds Internet, the collapse of global banking, explosions in childrens hospitals and donkey sanctuaries and the ultimate heat death of the universe…”


    “…a “Yes” vote in September would threaten the stability of the wider world…(it) would be cataclysmic in geo-political terms”

    Lord George Robertson – April 2014

  131. robertknight says:


    “There are plenty Conservatives horrified by thqe prospect of Boris”

    Which is why his shelf-life as PM may not extend much beyond “Getting Brexit Done”.

  132. One_Scot says:

    Yeah, I sent Brian Taylor a tweet saying he was talking pish but I don’t think he has ever sent or read a tweet.

  133. Dr Jim says:

    Labour advisers urging their party to alter their opposition to constitutional change in Scotland before there is no Labour party left in Scotland

    I don’t think that’ll apply to Ian Murray because well, Ian Murray

  134. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    14 December, 2019 at 1:04 pm

    You can declare this if you want but it needs the EU to accept this position. Currently it does not look like they do.

    Also the successor state is a reference to membership of the EU as being admitted as the state that was the EU member as the UK. Nothing I wrote said Scotland was inferior to England. I think we are trying to persuade people to move to Yes, not trying to prove we are pedantic language police…

    I wasn’t picking a fight jfngw, but a successor state is a different beast from a nation state which has existed for centuries. I wasn’t being pedantic.

    Back in 2014, the Westminster Government was going to great pains to paint Scotland’s Independence as an act of secession, with Scotland the successor state who would have to negotiate its own EU membership. It simply isn’t correct however, because the Union was a Treaty between Constitutional equals, and upon dissolution of the Union, the Constitutional status of Scotland would be exactly the same as the Constitutional status of England.

    I know successor is a convenient word to use, but there is a very important distinction in it’s meaning.

    It also means neither Article 48 nor 49 of the Lisbon Treaty would be applicable to the dissolution of the UK, because the dissolution of the UK while still a member of the EU would require both Scotland and England to be treated exactly the same. If Scotland was required to leave and rejoin the EU, then so would England. A new precedent would need to be set.

    One more example of Westminster rewriting our constitution to suit it’s own agenda, and Scotland not being forceful enough in defence of it’s sovereign Constitution.

    You are absolutely correct we do need the EU to see these issues like we do, but that’s the whole point. Scotland’s Sovereignty is robust and sound, but what it lacks is international recognition.

    That is why I wanted Joanna Cherry to seek clarification from the ECJ whether Scotland could revoke Article 50 unilaterally as a sovereign prerogative… not to revoke Article 50, but have the ECJ acknowledge that Scotland was sovereign and could revoke unilaterally. If the ECJ recognised Scottish Sovereignty, then the EU would have to as well, and the whole Brexit negotiations would be undone.

    I have since learned however that I may have been wrong. Even if Scotland could prove sovereignty, there is another concept in law which is called the “High Contracting Party”. To cut to the chase, the High Contracting Party is the Party who’s name appears on the contract, so the ECJ could legitimately recognise the UK as the only party, that is the High Contracting Party, who signed up to the agreement.

    What makes it more complicated however, is that upon dissolution of the Union, there no longer is any United Kingdom. The High Contracting Party has ceased to exist.

  135. Breeks says:

    And a pedantic distinction… the High Contracting Party is not necessarily the Continuer State. All very complicated and thorny.

  136. Dr Jim says:

    Why is a Tory referendum an *offer* of democracy but a SNP referendum is a *threat* to democracy when clearly and by any definition of democracy the opposite just happened

    The Tories offered dictatorship with a smiley emoji and the stupid English bought it because Government Queen Flag Patriotism and the collective dream of ridding themselves of all foreign and different looking people, and by the time they began to understand they’d have less nursing staff, doctors, and all the other jobs folks come to the UK for it was too late to back down without looking like the numpties they were for falling for such pish in the first place

    So rather than *allowing* the people a rethink of their position because the Tories got what they wanted they patronisingly invented the idea that it was insulting people’s intelligence to admit they conned them and the people finding that out might reverse their decision making the Tories look like the liars they are

    I have a 13 year old granchild who worked that out even though she only has a very pooooor Scottish education

  137. crazycat says:

    @ Capella at 1.56

    I posted a response on the last thread to your comments about exit polls, before I moved on to this one.

    I’m relieved to see that your link confirms what I thought.

  138. crazycat says:

    @ Kenny J at 4.31

    I don’t think the student in The National is Rory Scothorne (who has already been confused with yet another bearded, bespectacled chap and accused of being Richard Leonard’s assistant).

    See for what Scothorne was tweeting yesterday.

  139. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – thx – interesting background detail. Pity they hadn’t done an exit poll last time and at least there would be some basis for polling again. Considering how few polls are carried out, and how few voters are polled, it wouldn’t be beyond the scope of a party to carry them out, or get the Local Authorities to do it.

    I expect there will be some analysis of the GE in tomorrow’s press. I haven’t seen much of a breakdown of voting patterns yet. Much wittering on about mandates though.

  140. jfngw says:


    You are over complicating what my point was. I was merely indicating that the EU giving the nod that Scotland could retain membership or take the current UK membership. This is important as unless the SNP has some cunning plan we will be out of the EU on the 31st of Jan (in fact it could be sooner if the Tories decide it will be, the 31st Jan is just the limit to the extension).

    The EU sending a positive message that Scotland is a wanted member of the EU, so far we have only had individuals comments, could I believe swing some fence sitters.

  141. Tam Fae somewhere says:

    The EU won’t say anything till the UK has left as that would be interfering in the internal politics of a member state.

    I am interested to hear what they say after the UK has left the EU. Will we get a come on from them?

  142. jfngw says:

    @Tam Fae wherever

    You are probably correct, but what you have is a country that wants to be in the EU (the majority anyway) and the EU that I suspect wants Scotland as a member but restricted by diplomacy. The result could end up with Scotland locked in the UK because some are too fearful to vote Yes without the EU giving the positive message, such is the way of international relations.

  143. Iain 2 says:

    The tory rag the gidion is reporting the NHS is on it’s knees.
    Must hurt.

  144. Iain 2 says:

    Realy hard to post, blame the 77th.
    What is new.

  145. call me dave says:

    ENHS: Figures released yesterday. AE Waiting etc etc.

    Not archived as got some graphs.

  146. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Suggestion re civil disobedience:

    There’s no need for any nastiness, but it’s pretty clear that a lot of us want to ‘do’ something while the political side of things grinds on. The spontaneous march down Buchanan St yesterday says a lot.

    I propose the establishment of a forum wherein we plot civil disobedience across London. (No point disrupting ourselves – has to be right there, where they’ll notice it. Think Extinction Rebellion.)

    But we don’t keep it secret.

    We have an open site to discuss the plans, recruit interested folk, perhaps even fundraise to cover fares etc. We tell them straight-out what we’re going to do, but we don’t say when. We make sure that everything is entirely above-board from a legal point of view, at every stage of development.

    Most of us simply cannot comprehend the size of London. I have a nephew who lived there for most of his childhood and was a keen cyclist. He lived in Hornsey, which is pretty central. He would often get up early and set out for a full day on his bike, but never ever managed to get ‘out’ of London. It’s fuckin huge.

    We hire a bus (50-seater) and go to London, drop off two/three folk at certain points. They meet up with local sympathisers. One busload of us pesky Cybernats could easily ‘cover’ 20 different locations. Then, we sit our big arses down at road junctions, outside Tube stations, glue ourselves to buses, whatever…it’s all hypothetical, of course, but you can see how it would work.

    And we wouldn’t even have to do it. We just plan it, in detail, show them the whole plan, and say, ‘Hey, this is ready to go, and we will do it.’. It could start as a one-off, with the promise that it’ll become monthly, then weekly, daily…

    Now I’m just gibbering, but it’s a start.

    Let’s get these discussions going, if only to help ourselves through this period of stasis.


  147. Joe says:

    Asked the wife (who has a heavy foreign accent) where in the UK she found people to be most friendly.

    She said Yorkshire. She also found people to be quite friendly and helpful in Luton also.

    I asked: ‘what about Scotland?’

    She said ‘Well they aren’t unfriendly, but people were more chatty in England’.

    There’s your English racist bigots.

    This is for the fannies ive seen in the occasional post in the last few articles posting about ‘nazi/racist English’.

  148. Dan says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Saw this yesterday, AUOB are quickly planning a march in Glasgow on Saturday January 11th due to exceptional political circumstances.
    Couple of tweeters below suggesting holding marches down south, so that may tie in a little with your suggestion.

  149. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dan –

    Cheers for response.

    Marches always give folk the chance to ‘do’ something. If I can make it, aye, I’ll be there. It could also be an unexpected chance for Wingers to have a wee ‘New Year’ powwow!


  150. Gary45% says:

    Civil disobedience, as Ian Brotherhood says, “there’s no need for nastiness”, totally agree, what’s the point of stopping ordinary punters getting to work et,c. Start smashing up buildings and the punters you seek to support you will soon ignore your plight.
    Hit the media sources who are 100% guilty of the current situation, bring them down, if you live in the southern shires attack Westminster/media sources, in Scotland at least we have a decent Parliament, go for the BBC/STV + others.
    As the Pistols sang “Anarchy in the UK”, yes it was an anthem decades ago, those of us of a certain vintage still believe, but now it would just give clueless morons with no real agenda a reason to cause chaos.
    Westminster/ the media are the only direction the disgruntled population need to direct their anger.
    How did it come to this? answer Above.
    A wee O/T
    AUOB in Glasgow, Fleetwood Mac Go your own way, simple change to “Go Our Own Way” mibees a wee chant on the march?

  151. Terry callachan says:


    I found people to be most friendly everywhere
    Poole Cardiff Felixstowe Ipswich Norwich manchester Newcastle Edinburgh Glasgow Perth Stirling Dundee Forfar Blairgowrie aberdeen Inverness Shetland Belfast Dublin guernsey
    Germany Netherlands Norway Sweden Denmark Belgium France Italy Spain Malta Greece turkey Libya Egypt

    Actually I think that people are most friendly across the world

    But sometimes if you do or say something that other people do not agree with , they will get angry with you

    You know, like when you go to live in another country and then tell the locals that they will not get to decide their own future

    The Scottish government in my opinion are overly generous to English people in allowing them to vote in a Scottish independence referendum but it’s what they decided

    I go along with it because that’s what they decided
    But I don’t agree with it
    I don’t like it
    But that’s not racism
    It’s a dislike of unfairness
    And English people voting in a Scottish independence referendum is blatantly unfair simply because it’s england we want free of
    Allowing half a million of them to vote when our voting population is so small is crazy and undemocratic
    Furthermore when you then campaign in their country against them having the right to vote on their future they get angry again
    and then when you have the cheek to actually vote in their country for your country to keep controlling their country
    They might get a bit more annoyed

    Know what joe ?
    That’s not racism
    It’s anger at blatant unfairness

    People in Scotland quite rightly think that everyone living here should have a vote in council elections and general elections and Scottish government elections and EU elections all of which serve the purpose of giving people as say in how their taxes and government business should be conducted

    But deciding the actual future of your country is a different matter altogether
    And in my personal opinion the English have got a damn cheek voting NO in a Scottish independence referendum because what they are actually saying when they vote no in a Scottish independence referendum iss that they want their country to continue controlling Scotland

  152. kapelmeister says:

    So Labour are saying lessons have to be learned from their defeat.

    That’s what they said in 2017…….2015……..and in 2010.

  153. Dan says:

    @Joe at 10.44pm

    Aye ok, still spinning away I see, but is that the most scientific evidence you can come up with.
    Your Mrs spoke with a few folk in several locations around the UK, and based on her random interactions, you can then project with accuracy what the general outlook of the entirety of the people in each location is.

    It reads awfy like you’ve just done what you accuse the occasional fannies on here of doing…

  154. McDuff says:

    Terry Callaghan
    Quite agree. It was ridiculous to give the English the vote and to allow people who had been resident for half an hour to determine our countries future as they were clearly going to vote no.

  155. Effijy says:

    First Ministers Independence period head toward 450,000!
    Could it reach half a million ?

    Absolutely incredible to have increased by 150,000 plus in just a
    Couple of days.

    How on earth has such a seismic shift possible when Jackson Secondhandcarlaw
    assured us no one is interested?

    Freedom is ours!

  156. Dan says:


    Labour’s just on a perpetual learning journey.
    Soon they will twig and turn over a new leaf when they learn that they were barking up the wrong tree in planting Robust Leylandii into the branch office leadership role.

    Most folk already know that nothing grows under a Leylandii…

  157. Effijy says:

    Thank goodness the fact that every single NHS Trust
    In England has missed its A & E targets before the worst
    Of the Winter comes and stats released just after the election.

    Now let’s be clear, you cannot blame the Tory Government as it’s not
    Quite 10 years that they have been in power to prevent such things.

    The future is bright with Bojo the Clown as he intends building 6 new hospitals
    In England. Can you imagine how much this will help when supporting a population
    Of over 55 Million? Each new hospital could serve 9.000,000 people each and
    Take the pressure off.

    He has also promised to find Seed Funding which appears to an artists impression of what
    Another 34 hospital might look like after they find him dead in a ditch.

  158. manandboy says:

    Mist001 says:14 December, 2019 at 12:17 pm
    “I’ll say this though, Johnson talks a good game and is very convincing in the way he says things. I’m willing to give him a chance and see if he really is different prom previous PMs.”

    A comment like this is like a bad smell in a public toilet, or as Karen Dunbar would say ‘I smell shite’.

    But then, isn’t that the intention behind all of Mist001’s comments? To make Wings an unpleasant place to visit. Classic Tory troll tactic.

  159. manandboy says:

    I suspect that most Scots have very little idea of the current situation in England, and might even think that very little has changed ‘darn sarf’, and that everything is just as it has always been.

    Nothing could be further from the truth.

    Chris’s drawing is spot on, about what lies in store, but right now, England is in a mess, with few, if any, redeeming features. The once formidable England is greatly diminished.
    Boris Johnson’s primary task is to conceal that fact by bluster and bravado – and by endless pretence that everything is going to be so much better. But this is just the latest big lie.

    Independence is close for England, Scotland, and Wales, with a United Ireland nearby.

  160. Dr Jim says:

    Boris Johnson set to sack up to 50% of civil servants and replace them with his own chosen team, or should I say Dominic Cummings chosen team (many hundreds of people’s jobs to go)

    I keep saying it, we’ve seen this before and in the upper echelons of England’s traditional Tories they’re seeing it too, and they’re frightened

    The shakeup of England’s Police *force* will follow shortly

    We’ll see how every party is treated (especially the SNP) on opening day of the House of Commons

  161. Papko says:

    “I propose the establishment of a forum wherein we plot civil disobedience across London. (No point disrupting ourselves – has to be right there, where they’ll notice it. Think Extinction Rebellion.)”

    Try Canning Town, they are patient friendly types down there.

  162. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Great news for the few still up.

    Royal Wedding in June. Princess Beatrice getting hitched in June praise the lord.

    This is what the country needs at a time like this fairly raises the spirits, what.

    This sort of thing fairly shuts up the Nationalists who dont know their place.

    Who mentioned foodbanks?

  163. Jomry says:

    Effijy 11.54
    I have signed the FM’s pledge and am pleased to see the numbers rising.

    When it was first introduced, it stalled very quickly. It was at a time when many people – certainly in this forum – were expressing deep frustration at the lack of meaningful SNP action taking forward the independence initiative. The pledge seemed to be the sum total response of the SNP to the disquiet amongst the ranks – and I think that many people, myself included – saw it as an inadequate placatory mechanism and ignored it.

    The present situation, however, is very different – the political success in Scotland following explicit and overt campaigning ( not central enough for some, I know) for the right of Scotland to determine its own future. We have momentum – and we have very direct opposition from Westminster with its diametrically opposed political philosophy. In such circumstances, it becomes very important to garner evidence of strong popular support for self determination. The pledge is one of the things that can help to do this if enough people take the trouble to sign.

    I would urge people who have not signed it to do so. Of itself, it may not achieve much more than good PR, but it can help to grow the momentum that we are currently witnessing.

  164. Clapper57 says:

    @ twathater @ 4.32pm on 14 December


    It is now 1.42 AM….so I can wish you a good day.

  165. Meg merrilees says:

    Dr Jim,

    I think the results of the election and events in the past 36 hours have shown that the majority of the MSM is living in a bubble where they have no idea what is really happening in Scottish politics.
    I listened to an ‘informed’ debate on the BBC World service about an hour ago discussing what happens now and they were talking rubbish re Scotland -Boris will not give in so the possibility of another referendum is highly unlikely and then even thinking that we would consider a Catalan style secession attempt which would be foolish because the EU would look on this as a highly unfavourable move.

    They clearly do not understand that Scotland is a separate country, is heading in a completely different direction and they certainly do not know Nicola.

    About to get very interesting I think. Definitely up for a march on January 11th.

  166. Chic McGregor says:

    Eton Mess or Pig’s Brexit? Take your pick and start digging that foxhole.

  167. Breeks says:

    jfngw says:
    14 December, 2019 at 8:56 pm

    You are over complicating what my point was. I was merely indicating that the EU giving the nod that Scotland could retain membership or take the current UK membership…

    I understand you 100% jfngw, and I really don’t want to labour the point, but what you’re saying isn’t correct. If Scotland took over the UK’s membership, it would be acting a Continuer State, and responsible amongst other things for the whole UK’s contribution.

    The UK’s EU membership would not break down into a Continuer / Successor State arrangement, but rather it would become 2 Constitutionally equal entities.

    Because neither of those entities would be the UK, the “High Contracting Party”, the UK membership would not exist, and both Scotland and England would be in a state of flux, neither properly in the EU, but neither properly out of it, because we have paid our entry fee and have protections as EU citizens.

    But the critical point is, whether automatically in the EU or out of it, both Scotland and England would be in the same predicament.

    In my opinion, expediency would see the EU moving quickly to alter that “neither in nor out” status, and if either Scotland or England wanted to remain an EU member, the necessary alterations would be agreed very quickly, and I believe ‘before’ the “neither in nor out” status was ever “out”. Staying in is infinitely less complicated than leaving and rejoining.

    I know there was a lot of comment about an Indy Scotland being out and having to rejoin, but to my mind, such comments were misguided, and ignorant of the UK’s unusual Constitutional composition. That is hardly surprising given the UK was pumping out horseshit like the document I linked to before… but it isn’t Constitutionally correct.

    Neither Articles 47 nor 48 would be applicable. Those EU protocols only ever anticipated a new EU membership being from a non-member State applying, or a Successor State diving off a Continuer State’s existing membership. Neither makes any provision whatsoever to accommodate two identically sovereign entities instantaneously coming into existence while both are affiliated to the EU rules and conditions.

    These would be unprecedented circumstances which the existing protocols couldn’t accommodate. A new precedent would need to be set, and that precedent is currently unwritten and thus, nobody can be certain. However, I do not accept that unwritten precedent would get away with treating both Scotland and England as suddenly “out” of the EU. We are paid up members, our economy, laws, and standards are fully convergent, and our citizens are EU Citizens. That is a contract between the EU and every EU citizen, and the EU could not simply evict either Nation on a technicality. Apart from anything else, they’d be liable for damages if there was any economic fallout. It wouldn’t happen. The eviction of either nation against it’s will would be as drawn out and intractable as Brexit.

    Scotland needs to stand on it’s own two feet and stop allowing Westminster and it’s bullshit to make all the running.

  168. Sandy says:

    Re Scots only voting in Indyref2.

    When electoral registration forms are delivered to each address, in my case & in countless others, the main householder is usually already printed with nationality as British.
    As there is no nation of Britain, shouldn’t this be immediately amended to Scottish, Welsh, English &, well, N Irish. I have regularly inquired into the legality of this “British” endorsement but to date, to no avail.
    However, if this were to be amended, a vote on Indyref2 could be confined to Scots & those who have taken out Scottish Nationality. The decision of real Scots would then be a true reflection of how we wish to have our Country governed.

  169. thingy says:

    Don’t Talk To Me About Love. Stu. One of yer pals on youtube if ye fancy a wee rake aboot. 😉

  170. thingy says:

    Clare Grogan’s Altered Images – Don’t Talk To Me About Love

    Exact search if you can’t be bothered.

  171. gullaneno4 says:

    Some one went the extra mile yesterday in my local ASDA and covered all the Unionist headlined newspapers with copies of the National, the I and the Record.

  172. Effijy says:

    Thank you Jomry.

    The First Minister’s Independence petition continues to explode.
    Just approaching 462,000 with new signatures every few seconds.

    I really think the 500,000 mark is achievable!

  173. Nicola on Marr at 9 o`clock,

    hope she is on front foot from the start,

    time for politeness to biased BBC is over.

  174. Ottomanboi says:

    Insular, sound bite, bread-and-butter British politics is not known for having existential, cultural, ideological or philosophical facets.
    These are elements that Scottish politics would do well to embrace.
    Scottish nationalism would benefit from an intellectual dynamic.
    In a word, Scottish politics needs to become more European.
    Anglo-saxon attitudes no more.
    Let there be a new Scottish enlightenment.

  175. Grouse Beater says:

    Boris as a turd, Chris, I like that. Sadly, half of England loves the fraud. Best we let England get on with their xenophobia and we throw our energies and political guile into protecting Scotland.

    Your essential weekend reading:

    Fed up with Selfies’:
    ‘The best of 2019’

  176. ahundredthidiot says:

    SNP could use this argument;

    imagine the 2015 returned 400 Tory MP’s and they wanted to run a Referendum on EU membership – and the EU refused it.

    Not only does this prove that the UK was already an independent nation within the EU, which is now in the past, but it also blows up the current tory argument against indyref2.

  177. Effijy says:

    A couple of points from earlier comments:

    It has never been explained to my why, if Scotland is in a so called equal partnership with England,
    That an Indy 1 Yes vote meant Scotland was out of the EU and England would be in it?

    Now that England want out of the EU why doesn’t Scotland have the same rights as them to stay in it?

    Yes our own membership fees would need to be agreed but Bojo assures us he can make agreements like that in a few weeks.

    Is it a case of Bojo has greater intelligence than the combined population of Scotland?

    You will remember too that Greece could not make its EU fees so the Community worked with them
    To give them loans, restructure their economy and agreed a lengthy timescale to get them back on track. Again is someone suggesting Scotland would be offered EU support if and when need as is the case for countries like Greece and more recently Ireland?

    I was sent some pictures yesterday with various Tory Leaders making pledges to the UK.

    We assure you British Gas is not for sale. SOLD

    There is no possibility of our Electricity suppliers being sold off. SOLD

    We are very proud of our National Engineering research group and we would never let it go. SOLD.

    British Telecom is not for sale. SOLD

    Royal Mail is a UK institution and is safe in the hands of the Tory Government. SOLD

    Thank goodness a Tory Leader with the track record of Boris has assured us that the NHS will not be sold?

    Stop Press- Is that a Purple Bricks flag being planted at the hospital entrance gate?
    There is a weird orange complexion guy with white circles around his eyes hammering it in now.

  178. ahundredthidiot says:

    I for one am looking forward to the Christmas Leave period where the agents of the state will all disappear for a few weeks…..wings will be a breath of fresh air!

  179. Effijy says:


    I’ve just signed the open letter to the Prime Minister asking to protect our NHS – in law – from trade deals with Trump. Will you add your name?

  180. Famous15 says:

    In Scotland the Tories believe their own propaganda.

    They forget that most of us use public services and many of us work in public services and therefore we know the reality. We also know enough about England and Wales to make a comparison. We also know that in Scotland we grasp the reality in our lives and focus on positive outcomes. More should be made of this and it should be explained better.

    We wish for better but we will only get this when we have all the fiscal powers,not the tiny fraction as at present.

    Watching Marr and Sophy Ridge I see a calm firmness in the SNP response and it is a good look.

  181. ahundredthidiot says:

    McDonnell on BBC talking about the media smear campaign on Corbyn…..

    …..why doesn’t he just say ‘if Corbyn hadn’t killed 6 million Jews, he would’ve stood a better chance’ and give them what they want.

  182. Dan says:

    @Ian Brotherhood at 11:08 pm

    re. civil disobedience.
    Large scale stuff is always going to be more difficult to organise due to the number of people and distances, which of course then adds cost.
    There are other options though that could continually create a presence and keep the issue prominent across society.
    Social media has the ability to make events go viral, so the impact of even a small event can reach many times more folk that actually saw it firsthand.
    Add in some humour to the mix to further fuel and propel the motivation for folk to share it and that is a good recipe for success.
    You’ll recall when our Imperial Masters visited Glasgow and were serenaded by a rickshaw.
    That fookin mahoosif Unicorn that appears at the Glasgow marches will always make an impact at anytime as it travels along the streets…which reminds me to get on with yet another wee project of my own…

  183. call me dave says:

    Oh! Boris to introduce laws to protect the NHS.,.where have I heard that recently..,Aye that Scottish woman and the SNPEE planned to do similar thing. FGS!

    Boris to love bomb Scotland and discuss with Carlaw what kind of Indian beads the natives would fall for in an initial attempt to quell the upsurge of nasty nationalism.

    Sammy the DUP man worried about the union.


    Just some of the front page headlines in the shop! 🙂

  184. Dan says:

    @call me dave

    Aye, we tried that just the other day in Scottish Parliament but Labour and Tories weren’t supportive of it then.

  185. Republicofscotland says:

    Marr talking to the head of the Treasury, in effect the state is talking to itself in aid of our benefit. Reminding us that Scotland won’t be getting a second indyref.

  186. Republicofscotland says:

    Did Paul Sweeney just hint that independence might be the way forward after SLABS disasterous showing in the GE?

  187. call me dave says:

    BBC have a headline on their live rolling web site page Sturgeon on Marr interview.

    Had a shufty but nothing there about it no picture of her but lots of others who were on the show telling us to suck it up Scotland no referendum. FGS! Good old Auntie doing her thing.

  188. Republicofscotland says:

    Re my above comment Brewer looks a bit shell shocked with regards Sweeneys position on indy.

  189. Republicofscotland says:

    Brewer just said that Neil Findlay is also leaning towards independence on a radio show yesterday. Could SLAB or at least some of them be shifting to the indy cause.

  190. call me dave says:

    James Kelly … 🙁

  191. jfngw says:


    it would be a smart move for Labour, the end of the Union under Boris Johnson, it could destroy his reputation and the party of Union.

    All those media people that told me the DUP were such great tacticians, it doesn’t look like that now. About to be dumped by the Tories and lost control of NI after ignoring the referendum result there. They may end up being the midwife’s of a single Irish state.

  192. Effijy says:

    A right wing extremist government killed 6 million Jews.

    Just one of many reasons I would never accept an extreme right wing government
    Holding power over Scotland.

    Westminster can of course beat this number with a recognised 10,000,000 plus
    Killed as they invaded murdered and robbed nations across the globe building their Empire.

    Their most recent kills being Tony Blair’s illegal war that is still searching for weapons of mass destruction.
    Every one knows they used the N Ireland paramilitary groups to take Irish Republicans out.

  193. kapelmeister says:

    Tory Treasury minister Rishi Sunak on the Marr Show and completely ruling out an indyref agreement. How nice to be told by the son-in-law of a billionaire that your country’s wishes don’t count for anything.

  194. Bob Mack says:

    Labour clear!y talking about Federalism ,not Indy.

    They will need to be dragged ,kicking and screaming to support Indy

  195. Ottomanboi says:

    How ready are we for a real crisis? A crisis that will shake the entire system to its foundations, a crisis that will pull away the institutional comfort blanket to which many in the older generation in Scotland have become accustomed?
    The prize of a free Scotland will not be obtained by just going down the lotto shop for a ticket. It will require being prepared for a succession of severe, turbulent and ‘challenging’ shocks.
    The British state is not going to let us have our country back without a mega battle royal.
    If we are truly serious and determined in our task then we must be intellectually prepared, psychologically equipped and politically well armed for engagement on a field of battle of our choosing.
    Scotland must become England’s establishment’s worst nightmare.

  196. Republicofscotland says:

    “Bob Mack says:
    15 December, 2019 at 10:52 am
    Labour clear!y talking about Federalism ,not Indy.”

    I doubt the Tories will see Federalism as the way forward and I’m sure we’ve been over this old Federalism chestnut in the past and it was a non starter.

    I think the only way Johnson can negate Sturgeon and our drive for independence, for now, is if he somehow offers a way to let Scotland stay in the EU.

  197. Breeks says:

    call me dave says:
    15 December, 2019 at 10:33 am
    BBC have a headline on their live rolling web site page Sturgeon on Marr interview.

    Had a shufty but nothing there about it no picture of her but lots of others who were on the show telling us to suck it up Scotland no referendum…

    Nicola’s pitch was more or less that Johnson will be obliged to recognise Scottish democracy because it would be terribly undemocratic if he didn’t. Zzzzzz…

    She conspicuously wouldn’t be drawn on what she would do when confronted with the stone wall refusal to accede to a Section 30 Agreement, and there wasn’t so much as a hint about Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty of the people. Scottish Sovereignty! The best kept secret in Scotland…

    No doubt the Party faithful will say Nicola was great, and in her way, she was. But the great bore for Independence continues…

    I think the sooner Boris takes the initiative over Brexit the better, because then Scotland will finally have to react. But unfortunately, Boris doesn’t require to take any initiative whatsoever with Scotland, just shrug his shoulders and kick a Section 30 into the long grass.

    I am utterly flummoxed by people talking about civil disobedience, because it’s the very reverse of what is required. Far from putting ourselves outside the law, we should become a nation of pedantic Constitutionalists who demand international recognition for Scots Law and Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution. I don’t know what the fk we’re waiting for. This conclusion is inevitable, and has been inevitable ever since the morning after the Brexit Referendum.

  198. Terry callachan says:

    OK it might be nearly 250 years old
    But the man that said this of British politicians in 1776 could say the exact same thing today and would be absolutely correct about their vile nature

    Boris Johnston and colleagues is living proof of that
    Nothing much has changed
    British politicians and the hereditary peers and royalty is as corrupt and vile now as it was then

    “ Men who look upon themselves born to reign, and others to obey, soon grow insolent; selected from the rest of mankind their minds are early poisoned by importance; and the world they act in differs so materially from the world at large, that they have but little opportunity of knowing its true interests, and when they succeed to the government are frequently the most ignorant and unfit of any throughout the dominions. “

    Yes that’s right Thomas Payne wrote this in a leaflet and distributed it far and wide in USA pubs homes and workplaces in 1775 so much was it liked that it led to the American revolution and American independence from Britain

    common Sense[1] is a pamphlet written by Thomas Paine in 1775–1776 advocating independence from Great Britain

    Not much talked about these days what with the so called “ special relationship “ and all
    But back then in 1812 Britain attacked USA sending the few war ships it could spare from fighting France in France , to Washington USA to burn the city to the ground for having the audacity to fight back against Britain when Britain was giving rifles and other guns to red Indians in what is now Canada so that the red indians could help Britain gain ground in trying to take control of the northerly US states from Britain’s outposts on eastern Canada

    Nothing has changed in the way british basics see other countries as a means of mercantilism for English gain

  199. jfngw says:

    Any truth in the rumours Boris Johnson has bought Ms Kuenssberg a pole as a thank you for her unprecedented election coverage?

  200. jfngw says:

    Looks like the BBC is about to change it’s motto from ‘Nation shall speak peace unto nation’, to ‘All critics must be silenced, propaganda sets you free’.

  201. vlad (not that one) says:

    @Sandy 5:39
    Re Scots only voting in Indyref2. … a vote on Indyref2 could be confined to Scots & those who have taken out Scottish Nationality. …
    Taking out a Scottish nationality: There may be a need for a Nationality Recognition Act?

  202. Terry callachan says:

    When people in USA got fed up with Britain sucking out it’s wealth to feed England’s greed they formed their own local government and collected taxes for use in USA and they stopped paying taxes to the british.
    The British sent them a message from the King telling them they were his subjects are were duty bound to do as he says.

    The people decided that actions are stronger than words and as the british were harming the local US population with its heavy duty force and taxation they sent back a reply to the british that they were no longer prepared to be treated so badly .
    The message said

    “”The recent acts of the British Parliament are subverting the rights of the people. This includes the dissolution of the Provincial Assembly, the blockade of Boston Harbor, the subversion of legal protection, and presence of British troops in Boston. The rights of the colonists are natural, constitutional, and guaranteed by the charter of the province. The convention stated the Province is not required to follow or abide by these recent laws because they are the result of a “wicked administration”[3] seeking to “enslave America.”[4] Any justices, magistrates, or officials in general which were appointed by the current government were illegitimate and unconstitutional. Anyone who cooperates with the said government will be acting and collaborating with an enemy force. All officers whose duty it is to make payment to the state ought not to make it to the civil government until there is a constitutional replacement. That any person who has accepted a position in the civil government, not by constitutional means but by “virtue of a mandamus from the king” has affronted the people of Massachusetts and become the enemies of the people of the colony. Therefore, the convention gave until September for all officials to resign their position.[5]

    Scotland may yet have to do the same thing

  203. admiral says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    15 December, 2019 at 10:38 am
    Brewer just said that Neil Findlay is also leaning towards independence on a radio show yesterday. Could SLAB or at least some of them be shifting to the indy cause.

    All well and good, but I personally I would take a SLAB conversion to indy with a Siberian salt mine’s worth of salt.

    After all, they are supposedly socialist and when their 1999-2007 administration had a spare £1 billion sloshing about, did they use it to implement socialist policies, like building council houses, investing in schools and the NHS, retraining and reskilling the unemployed, improving public transport? Did they hell! They handed the money back to London and limbered our schools and hospitals with grotesquely expensive PFI deals, that are going to be diverting large amounts of public money into private hands well into this century.

    They happily banked Tory cash to campaign against Scotland’s interests in 2014 and have happily and willingly supported the Tories in the Scottish Parliament to block the Scottish Government’s policies

    On a practical level, the present leadership and office bearers bring nothing to the indy table – few members, fewer assets, reliance on funding from London labour, a cosiness with sectarian organisations like the Orange Order. They can do one as far as I am concerned.

  204. jfngw says:


    There is no such thing as right or wrong in this situation, it is unprecedented in EU history, the EU can interpret the rules as it sees fit, they have done it in the past. They could let Scotland take the current UK position using Scotland’s GDP rather than the UK’s, they then pass the difference onto the those who are leaving (I’m quite happy to let rUK retain the UK title then they can take all the EU payments).

    But this is all academic anyway the chances of my preferred option happening is practically zero. We will be out and have to apply to rejoin is the most likely scenario. If it works out this way we made need to reflect on whether full membership is what we want or something like the Norway model.

  205. Fergus Green says:

    As this thread is entitled ‘Hitting the Fans’, it may not be too far off topic to post a link to James Kelly’s take on the musings on Wings Over Scotland during the fortnight leading up to the General Election:

    Judge for yourselves.

  206. Republicofscotland says:

    Look certain members of the SLAB might be contemplating on moving to indy, lets not jump on their heads and roll out the old platitudes of this and that.

    Instead lets give them encouragement to move over to indy. The GE is over SLAB lost heavily we must try and convince them that indy is now the way forward not just for us but for them as well, Johnson is now our common enemy.

    The time for gloating is over, extend the hand of friendship and see where it takes us. We need them to get over the line.

  207. admiral says:

    Republicofscotland says:
    15 December, 2019 at 12:12 pm
    Look certain members of the SLAB might be contemplating on moving to indy, lets not jump on their heads and roll out the old platitudes of this and that.
    Instead lets give them encouragement to move over to indy.

    I’m all for the ordinary Labour members, trade unionists and supporters being welcomed into the indy fold. I fear that the leadership and office bearers may see such a “conversion” as electorally and politically expedient, and pretend to support independence to reclaim some of their lost voters, whilst at heart remaining committed unionists.

  208. ahundredthidiot says:

    Perhaps a new initiative should be launched in England


    (If I was on twitter i might hashtag-thingy it)

  209. Republicofscotland says:

    “pretend to support independence to reclaim some of their lost voters, whilst at heart remaining committed unionists.”

    Its a chance we need to take as it stand now we don’t have the numbers, of course those numbers may come the longer we wait. But then again they might not.

  210. Dan says:

    Sorry, should have said old post bumped…

  211. crazycat says:

    What SLab seem to be coming round to is another referendum; how they would campaign in that remains to be seen.

    Here are two more fairly prominent Slabbers:

  212. Dr Jim says:

    @Dan 1:05pm

    That’s very close to what the FM is undertaking now, the EU is already up to speed on what’s going on and have been involved with the FM in conversations before and after this Brexit debacle, we do have friends in the EU

    Scotland will have the same type of support that Northern Ireland had because a good outcome from the EU point of view is a united Ireland and an Independent Scotland in the EU, if England and Wales as what’s left of the UK wants to co-operate all good and well but if they don’t England will find trade talks with the EU so long and arduous as to be neverending, deliberately wearing England down to the position the EU wants them unless Johnson does the nuclear option which will guarantee more trouble than England can possibly deal with

  213. Breastplate says:

    Dan, it is indeed an old post but doesn’t change the message although being a year further down the line, I hope the SNP have taken note of what Craig Murray has said.

  214. Clapper57 says:

    Saw on WOS Twitter the BBC Press review with a couple of young Hooray Henrietta’s….okay Ya…or Ja…Lol

    Seen that thick lassie before on Press review with a guy who was also reviewing papers …she was waffling uber sheeite about Brexit…the guy she was on with destroyed her argument…she folded like a deck of cards….vacant pretty vacant…deficient in intellectually reason but spot on with quoting tabloid skewed ‘sensational’ headlines set to spin spin spin.

    She has that ‘Tim (not) nice but Dim’ (lack of) quality about her…the only thing she knows about Scotland is that it …exists…other than that she knows nor cares feck all about it. The fact that she ended her tabloid derived list of negatives about Scotland, under the SNP, with some comment about Ruth Davidson winning….that is THE Ruth Davdison who is NO LONGER LEADER of the Tories in Scotland ( as she knew her days were numbered) proves beyond a shadow of doubt her desperation was such that she promoted a has been who ran away when she, Ruth, saw that defeat was inevitable….and like the coward she is, she, Ruth, did NOT want to carry the can but hoped by standing down she would sustain her saviour of the Union title…an undeserved title but predictable a la MSM…Ok Ja…Lol

    The BBC Presenter did not correct either Henrietta…obvs…and her partner in crimes against facts Horray Henrietta two was piping in negatives to reinforce Horray Henrietta one’s (non) argument….she is a Tory loving pro Brexit kinda gal who was on a mission way beyond her ability….intellectually or via charm where both were obviously ultra deficient….the fact that press reviews…which are merely a vehicle to promote propaganda from self serving individuals intent on fooling the public into their way of thinking…is the reason I know longer watch it.

    Sky are just as bad as the BBC….they are NOT there to review the papers but to endorse the parts that promote THEIR right wing Tory agenda….the fact that the Torygraph, Sun, Express & Daily Mail articles are reviewed with NO acknowledgement of their uber partisan allegiance to the Tories and are given undeserved credibility is a major factor in the pointless exercise of this being broadcast at all….of course we are talking about the English editions of the papers…so Why THE F*&% should we, Scots, be interested ….after all they are not bearers of facts but chock a block with opinion pieces spun to within a inch of their biased collective illogical logic..Lol

    One thing is for sure …it stuck in their craws that the SNP won definitively on Thursday….spoiling their Tory Fest of celebration of all things Boris….these two lassies reminded me of that quote in the film Braveheart by Edward Longshanks where the character said….” The trouble with Scotland…it’s that it’s full of …Scots”….and that I think was the sentiment both of these Horray Henrietta’s were diligently conveying in their uninformed and biased opinions on last night paper review via the BBC..BBC…you can stick your licence fee.

    HOWEVER…we do need more of this…because it is people like these two Horray Henrietta’s who will prove the disdain and contempt with which we , the Scots, and our CHOSEN party that we elect are treated….this is a precursor to the tsunami of sheeite that we, Scots, will be served up come the campaign on Indy Ref 2…but we are ready cause we have read the book, seen the film and worn the T-Shirt….so it is no longer just offensive but it now in the realms of …..Groundhog day 2…the Empire strikes back….again..with the same old same old…with a twist of new Brexit pitfalls …borders, won’t get into EU with your deficit…have to take the EURO..etc etc…up against a xenophobic hard right Tory dominated UKnotOK controlled land…for the many (English) and not for the few (Scots)….oh the choice….so hard to decide..what will we do….Lol

    ps. Hope these lassies do another turn for the Union….they are the epitome of those who ‘win’ the battle for the…OTHER side…Lol

  215. Breastplate says:

    Agreed Dr Jim

  216. euan0709 says:

    Excellent article by James “Scot Goes Pop” Kelly and so true regarding his comments about the “Rev” Stuart Campbell, who has sadly become a nasty bitter wee man !

  217. North chiel says:

    “ Famous 15 @0943 a.m “ I see a calm firmness in the SNP response and it is a good look”. I tend agree with that response in the meantime . However, I am of the opinion that the unionist “argument” that the 2014 referendum result was a “ once in a generation event” has to be rebutted more effectively. A central plank of the “ better together/ No case in 2014 was that a “ Yes” vote would ensure Scotland would be taken out of the EU . Given that 2 years later 62 percent of the people of Scotland voted to remain it is consequently very obvious that the “ Scotland out of the EU “ argument in 2014 must have had a significant effect on that September 2014 vote . When the supposed “ United Kingdom “ leaves the EU on Jan 31st , should the 2014 referendum in Scotland thus be declared “ Null & void “ by our Edinburgh Parliament?
    Further , I tend to disagree with future tactics which might involve “ civil disobedience “ in Scotland . This could be exactly what Gove & Johnston want , as they would use the police & courts and thereafter the “ state propagandists “ to attempt to paint the Yes activists as extremists” and through this win back “ soft No’s” and “ drive down the 50 percent ( currently in favour of Independence) to the core vote of low 40’s . More effective I would suggest would be a “ protracted legal& constitutional wrangle” in the courts “ which would be a “ thorn in the side” of the “ Tory Junta” over a period of months . If we exit the EU on Jan 31st thereafter I would expect our FM to rightly be given public unequivocal assurances from the EU that an Independent Scotland could be “ fast tracked “ back in as full members ( if it so wished) . Further , I would expect that “ democracy “ in the U.K. as far as referendums in Scotland and N. Ireland could be linked to a future trade deal between the EU and “ U.K.” . ( At the very least pressure should be exerted over this if the London government continue to obstruct the democratic process). Continues pressure should be exerted on this extreme right wing London Government from every possible angle over the coming months . Our government in Edinburgh should hold “ the moral high ground” and not allow the Britnats to attempt to marginalise the majority support for Independence post Jan 31st 2020.

  218. Republicofscotland says:

    “5 senior Scottish Labour figures calling for a new approach on independence in past 24 hours. Alison Evison, Kezia Dugdale (technically ex-Labour), Neil Findlay, Paul Sweeney, Monica Lennon. Again: signs of change, even if small & gradual, have to be welcomed rather than scorned.”

    Good advice here from Michael Gray, be nice.

  219. robertknight says:

    Tories 44% of the vote = “Stonking mandate” according to Johnson.

    SNP 45% of the vote = … . . . .

  220. Bob Mack says:


    Nobody forces you to visit Wings, Or is this where you can make yourself feel important by showing what a “good” SNP devotee you are? In any event, go bac! to where evdfyone agrees with you.i

    This site is for opinions not dogma.

  221. Can anyone translate what Sweeney said on the Brewer show into plain English,

    he`s like a 21century Wolfie Smith from the Tooting Popular Front,

    but not in a good way,

    jeezo he talks some political jargon bollocks.

  222. ahundredthidiot says:


    why come here and say that?

    Unless you are a nasty wee man.

    Now…….shoo fly

  223. Dr Jim says:

    The realisation dawning on Labour folks that the word Independence isn’t going to hurt anyone is at long last welcome, self determination is about choice and nobody has the right to deny choice to anyone else, you must be persuaded to accept or not accept propositions but should never be denied the opportunity to decide for yourself and that’s what the Government in England is invested in, denying Scotland its human right to choose

    If you don’t support Independence you can always say NO but should remember that in the future there may be something you feel strongly about and that same government in England would deny you that right which you faught for them to have the power to deny you

  224. I still say every time a unionist Mp or a media person says that Scotland is to wee or poor to survive on its own just answer by saying so why did you hide the Macrone report ??? Their own action proves their lies as I said before we are never going to get our freedom by following their rules and procedures if you appear to be winning they will just change the rules etc., I honestly believe they will drive us to resorting to violence against our will but I would remind them that at the end of the day they have always lost when they force people to take that path

  225. Victor Hugo,

    In every French village there is now a lighted torch, the schoolmaster;

    and a mouth trying to blow it out, the priest.

    Change schoolmaster for SNP MP and change priest for BBC.

  226. schrodingers cat says:


    interesting, previous polls asked the question, “if brexit happens would you support indy”

    such polling questions asking such “if such and such happens” are notoriously inaccurate

    we now know for certainty that brexit will happen. I would be interested to see a yes/no indy poll today or after 31st jan

  227. Fireproofjim says:

    I’ve said it before but it is true. Labour have no future in Scotland unless they embrace Independence wholeheartedly.
    They currently have nothing to offer except “SNP bad”.
    But if Labour join the cause and fight for their place in a new independent Scotland with new personnel then they could well find they will rise from the ashes.
    I hear some of them muttering about Federalism but that has been on the Labour agenda for more than a hundred years (see Keir Hardie) and has never been more than hot air (along with abolishing the House of Lords). It will never happen. Things have moved on.

  228. K1 says:

    Dan, it’s not a new post by Craig, it’s an old post from 2018

  229. schrodingers cat says:

    remainers are dead in the water, they will need to rebrand as rejoiners

    euref2 is also dead in the water

    stopping brexit is now a fairy tale, a delusional dream

    the indyref2 campaign cannot now be interupted by a pm calling a GE

    a request for a s30 will now be made. boris will have 30days to reply in writing. only then will we have an official rejection

    that is the point that the narrative from Nicola will once again change

  230. Tammytroot says:

    Lots of people welcoming.a change.of heart from some Labour sources. I hae ma doots.
    Remember the VOW? El Gordo’s “near federalism”?
    Labour lie.

  231. Breeks says:

    Dan says:
    15 December, 2019 at 1:05 pm
    New post up by Craig Murray.

    I readily bow to Craig Murray’s knowledge and experience, and if he says the Scottish Parliament has the right to withdraw from the Union, then I would give it some credence.

    But a follow up question which occurs to a cynic like me, is what should a Constitutionally Sovereign people do if it’s Devolved Parliament doesn’t , or let’s be kind, cannot defend the Nation’s Constitution and allows our choice to stay in Europe to be subjugated?

    There are important ramifications here, and unanswered Constitutional imponderables. For example, the Scottish people may be sovereign, and yet Westminster will seek to lay claim to Scotland’s Sovereignty by proxy, through the UK. So what, if any, claim does Holyrood have to speak as a sovereign entity? Where does it literally stand in the hierarchy? I don’t mean to denigrate our Parliament, but a good number of the Constitutional principles Craig describes would be readily applicable to Scotland even if we had no Parliament at all.

    We don’t have to reinvent the wheel here. We are profoundly well catered for already. Scotland is an ancient Nation with a 700 year old Constitution which enshrines forever Sovereignty upon the people. We do not need to create a new nation, just liberate an old one. Our forefathers did all the heavy lifting for us and built a nation of unparalleled resilience, and their foresight has given Scotland all the tools it needs to extricate itself from this contrived and deeply flawed Union.

    Scotland should have done this a long time ago, but then, we are the first generation of Scots in 300 years to have the coordination and communication of ideas through social media to organise our resistance to this Union, and challenge our subjugation and indoctrination without visceral fear of “British” Redcoats burning down our homes or Lairds putting us off our land. We are the generation which will see our Nation freed, and returned to the International family of Sovereign Nations.

    Independence is normal. It is this Union which is thoroughly abnormal.

  232. schrodingers cat says:

    it would be interesting to get a take on the legal position from a professional solicitor

  233. Clapper57 says:

    There’s DESPERATE DAN and then there’s DESPERATE DAVID…as in David Coburn.

    Coburn..ex UKIP MEP…ex spurned candidate of Brexit says he has JOINED the Tory party…as in joined as a mere MEMBER…a member in more ways than one.

    DESPERATE DAVID…is desperate for attention, respect, achievement and he probably thinks..having looked at the current stable of Tory Councillors he could be in with a shot…first he joins as a member..then career aspirations take over and he will make his move to be nominated as a Pro Union one nation (Lol) Tory candidate for council elections.

    This is the same David who berated Nigel for conceding to the Tories by not standing Brexit party candidates in certain seats in the GE…so David WANTED Brexit party candidates to stand AGAINST the Tories ( his new party of choice) in the GE…..

    Obviously Desperate David thinks…if ya can’t beat them…join them….

    The good news is that David has announced he will help the Tories fight against Indy Ref 2….so that’s another one onside to win the campaign….for Indy Ref 2.

    Of course everyone knows David, like Nigel, like Richard Tice, like Aaron Banks and a helluva lot of Brexit party members are Tory through and through…look at the ones that abandoned Nigel during GE campaign and advocated voting…TORY….the fact that desperate David has finally landed into the political party dear to his heart is of no shock to anyone least of all anyone who knows David….David is desperate to be on the winning side…to sustain his political (Lol) career….I am sure the Tories in Scotland will find a spot for David ex UKIP ex Brexit party Coburn as he is already molded into a one Nation ( Engerland uber alles) Tory.

    Will this joke fest never end….Lol

  234. Republicofscotland says:

    schrodingers cat.

    Notable SLAB members might well be moving towards indy to save their careers, wouldn’t you? I don’t care about that, I care about getting them on board with independence.

    Unionist pollsters won’t matter if we can manage to get Labour onside in Scotland. I’m a bit fed up with the blame game that’s haunted Scotland since forever lets concentrate on changing the hearts and minds of SLAB, some deep down already know indy is the way forward.

  235. Abulhaq says:

    What every country on the planet takes for granted is the right to national self-determination,
    Why are these unionists so fixated on being useful idiots to a colonial power?
    The history of Scotland in the Union is pregnant with the signs of subjection, exploitation and cultural subordination, you would think the so called left would at least get that.
    The ‘Jim Crowe’ Scots Tories seemingly conditioned to play the kilted fools for the colonial master, are truly beyond the pale.

  236. Dan says:

    @K1 at 2:39 pm

    Scroll down approx 26mm or an inch and a 1/16th depending on whether you are a metricasist or imperialist!

    I’m no handing in my alert reader badge over an eyesight issue compounded by folk that think putting tiny yellow font on a white screen is in anyway sensible.

    Think that’s defo gonna be another policy when I stand for election.
    So that’s officially regulated bread slice sizes that fit properly in toasting machines, and banning the use of light fonts on white backgrounds.
    There’ll be no shades of grey with my policies!
    Only a uniform hue ranging from light gold to dark brown over the entire slice of toast…

  237. North chiel says:

    If certain elements of “ Scottish labour” are coming round to the idea of independence, then as a first step they need to “ withdraw” from the Britnat London Labour Party and form a new “ Independent “ Scottish Labour Party.

  238. schrodingers cat says:


    So could the Scottish Government take the next Johnson administration to court for refusing to make an order under Section 30? I’ll be frank with you. Parking my own political preferences, looked at in the cold light of day, with my lawyering monocle in – I can’t see how any such legal action could fly.

    Firstly, some context. There’s a lot of confusion about Section 30 orders, on all sides of the constitutional argument. The way the phrase is thrown around, you might imagine it’s a legal rule about referendums particularly, essentially a permission slip from Whitehall to hold a poll. It isn’t like that at all. Take a moment to look up the text of Section 30 of the Scotland Act – and you’ll read nothing about independence, or referendums, or even the constitution

    So what does Section 30 do? With a little help from Her Majesty the Queen, Section 30 gives the UK Government the legal power to alter the list of reserved matters which fall outside Holyrood’s powers. Such an order was made before the 2014 poll. For a time-limited period, David Cameron’s administration put it beyond legal question that Holyrood had the legal authority to design and deliver the first referendum on Scottish independence. The upshot? Section 30 gives the Johnson administration legal powers to change the Scotland Act – but it doesn’t actually require the Government to do anything.

    Consider what’s missing here. There isn’t a dispute mechanism written into the legislation. The Scotland Act has nothing to say about how the UK Government should respond to demands from Edinburgh for the legal underpinning of devolution to be amended. Even such demands have no real legal status. The Act doesn’t give the Scottish Government a right of review or appeal.

    So what would the Scottish Government’s course of action be if Johnson tells the First Minister to get stuffed? What legal basis might they have to challenge this inaction? Let’s begin with Scottish constitutional principle of the sovereignty of the people. Can’t that be prayed in aid? Didn’t Westminster endorse the “sovereign right of the people of Scotland to determine their future” in a debate in July last year? Doesn’t that count for anything? The argument of democratic legitimacy is forceful. The political demand is unimpeachable. But the legal orthodoxy sees things differently.

    While Lord President Cooper held in MacCormick v Lord Advocate that “the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish constitutional law” – it doesn’t follow from that, that the courts have a legal basis to force the Prime Minister to give Holyrood the power to hold independence referendums. The fact a majority of the MPs who voted on Ian Blackford’s motion endorsed the language of the 1989 Claim of Right has no legal teeth either.

    So, what about the Act of Union then? Unsurprisingly, this founding document of the British state, written as it was in a largely undemocratic age, is entirely silent on the kind of popular, national referendum we’re contemplating here.

    And what about the principle of self-determination more general? That’s written into the UN charter, isn’t it? It’s a cardinal principle of international law? Well, yes and no and maybe. The concept of self-determination is indeed a core plank of modern international law – but most of the time, the concept of self-determination doesn’t entail a right to secede which the international community would feel bound to recognise. Just ask the Catalans. Scotland is not Kosovo. But beyond this, we also have a dualist legal system in Scotland, which sharply distinguishes between international law and domestic law – and here’s the kicker – international law isn’t directly enforceable in Scottish courts.

    What about the European Convention on Human Rights then? That’s a non-starter too, I’m afraid. The ECHR protects many fundamental rights: religious freedom, privacy, free expression, fair trials. Thanks to the Human Rights Act – which must be hanging from a shoogly peg given the scale of Johnson’s majority – its provisions can be directly enforced in Scottish courts. But if you thumb through the ECHR’s many articles, you won’t find self-determination listed there. EU law has nothing to say about self-determination either. Might the co-operation to deliver the 2014 generate substantive legitimate expectations which the courts would enforce against a reluctant Prime Minister? It is difficult to see how this could work.

    Law isn’t the lifeboat you’re looking for. Law can’t solve this problem. The Conservative campaign was premised on the idea they could ignore Scotland’s uncomfortable place in this increasingly uncomfortable Union with impunity, indefinitely. For Tories and the SNP alike, clever lawyering isn’t going to resolve the present impasse, or reintegrate this increasingly disunited Kingdom. Only political pressure can.

    so now what??

  239. callmedave says:

    Scottish Tories reject former UKIP leader David Coburn.

  240. Colin Alexander says:


    Are you gonnae do a Crowdfunder to take Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty to court?

  241. Meg merrilees says:

    Just heard the 5pm news bulletin on radio 4 and nearly crashed the car…..
    seems Scottish Labour are considering backing Independence for Scotland.
    Monica Lennon and a couple of others have pointed out that the SNP got lots of votes because they are pushing for Scotland to take back control.

    Is this for real????

    Let’s see the turn out on January 11th – Glasgow here we come.

  242. Meg merrilees says:

    Sorry – 4pm news bulletin!!!

  243. Golfnut says:

    @ Shrodingers Cat. 3:42.

    Thanks for posting Tickell’s take on the way forward, or at least what the options arn’t.
    Pretty certain the FM shares that opinion, of course it doesn’t stop the FM using the legal gambit to , public simply to heat up the whole issue, public awareness etc.
    Next couple of weeks are going to be interesting, can’t wait to see what she is going for, I mean really going for.

  244. Meg merrilees says:

    Schrodingers cat

    Not sure that we are talking about secession here.

    ..”Secession (derived from the Latin term secessio) is the withdrawal of a group from a larger entity, especially a political entity, but also from any organization, union or military alliance. Threats of secession can be a strategy for achieving more limited goals.[1] It is, therefore, a process, which commences once a group proclaims the act of secession (e.g. declaration of independence).[2] It could involve a violent or peaceful process but these do not change the nature of the outcome, which is the creation of a new state or entity independent from the group or territory it seceded from.[3] …” ( wikipedia)

    We would be reverting to the independent country we were before the Union of 1707 – we’re not seceding from or withdrawing from England but standing apart, ending the Treaty , walking tall, being ourselves. I’m not sure what the technical term should be but I feel that seceding sounds a bit too subservient. It accepts that the status quo is the preferred option and the effect on England would be equal to secession for England as well as there will be no continuing state. The UK will cease to exist so there is technically nothing that we can secede from.

    I ‘m happier using it to describe Catalonia’s position in so much as most people think of Catalonia as a region within the country of Spain and I can accept that description i.e. Catalonia seceding from Spain as Spain is the established country, the continuing sovereign state and Catalonia would effectively be the new state.
    But Scotland is an ancient Kingdom and is sufficiently separate from England by the decisions taken in 1707 to retain Scots law, religion, education – the powers of state.

    No, I think I would describe Scotland’s Independence as a global repositioning , a positive action taken deliberately by an equal party within a Union. Is there a better noun to describe that than secession?

    After all, when couples divorce we don’t talk about the wife seceding from the husband, we accept that there are two equal parties in the union with equal rights of cancellation.

  245. K1 says:

    Be in no doubt what the Tories are about. Damian Green (yeah that prick) now airing ‘social care’ being funded by insurance, for those that have, tickety boo, for those that don’t?

    This isn’t back door, this is 3 days after GE and here it starts..they mean to rip the social security and the welfare state to pieces, bit by bit all under the guise of ‘fairness’ while their loaded donors and pals underwrite the whole thing no doubt, gaining at the expense of millions who are on zero hours contracts who haven’t go property to insure themselves for their own care as they get older.

    And if anyone thinks that Soctsgov can mitigate repeatedly as these polices take hold in England affecting the Barnett formula they are merely enablers of this world view.

    We tried to warn everyone about who and what Tories are, and if us who lived through the 80’s wi Thatcher thought that was hard, god fucking help those who didn’t live through any of it and didn’t vote for these fucking evil bastards, at lease we still had our social security back then, now they will have nothing, nothing but homelessness and poverty and hunger on a scale that hasn’t been seen in ‘Britain’ for nearly a hundred years.

    Labour are dead in Scotland, Labour voters have to look into their heart’s and conscience, Scotland must become independent before our parliament is stripped of any powers and shuttered all under the banner of ‘take back control’ of the Brexiters.

    This is not a drill. This is now urgent, that bill gets through at the end of January, we are utterly fucked.


    ‘The Conservative manifesto promised that nobody will have to sell their homes to fund their social care – but that doesn’t mean people won’t need to use wealth from homes in a “controlled amount”, said Tory MP Damian Green.

    The former work and pensions minister, who was newly returned as Ashford’s MP in Thursday’s election, told LBC’s Shelagh Fogarty that the social care system should not be funded solely by general taxation.

    Saying that the prime minister needs to “grasp” the “difficult nettle” of funding social care, Green added: “Every year that passes is another year where the situation gets just a bit more difficult.

    “I very much hope and expect that this will be an early priority for the government to settle on a scheme, fund it properly and address this big social issue.”

    Social care, which is paid for via local council budgets, varies across the UK, with each country varying in its provision.

    In 2017, the BBC reported that directors of adult social services in England had to cut £4.6bn from their budgets since 2010.

    Former health and social care minister Jeremy Hunt later admitted, during his campaign to become the Conservative Party leader, that cuts made on his watch had been “too much”.

    The country’s ageing population increases demand and exacerbates the issue.

    However on LBC Green blamed the last hung parliament for lack of action on social care, rather than austerity.

    He said that under general taxation, those currently in their 30s, 40s and 50s will be paying both towards the care of the present older generation as well as towards their future care.

    He said: “We all accept there has to be more money to go into the system. You can pay it just out of general taxation and say it’s all free, but that means that people who are currently taxpayers – that are currently 30, 40, 50s now – will have to pay towards their own care at the end of life but also they’ll instantly start paying for the older generation’s care as well, which I think to put it mildly has fairness implications to it.

    “Or you can try some kind of insurance system so that those who can afford to take out an insurance policy should be encouraged to do so, which will buy them peace of mind.”

    Green has urged different funding solutions before – in April on Nick Ferrari’s LBC show he called for a tax rise for the over-50s – but has now proposed insurance, even in the wake of a Conservative general election manifesto commitment that nobody will have to sell their home to fund social care.

    Forgarty asked about this, noting it still leaves room for other forms of using property as a source of wealth.

    In response Green said people would still do that, in a “controlled amount”.

    “If you have a big enough insurance system you don’t need people selling their homes.

    “You need a bit of property wealth to do it but it’ll be a controlled amount – they’ll know what they’re spending, they’ll know what they’ve got left in their house – that’s the system that I advocate.

    “I accept that there are other ways of doing it but somewhere you have to find the money and if you just find a general taxation, which is the simplest way, then that’s unfair on current working-age people.”

  246. Clapper57 says:

    Just seen this tweet on Twitter on a pro remain a/c ( actually via a good guy Steve Bullock)…but was the kind of thing promoted by prominent ‘liberal’ minded remainers throughout the GE campaign for the biggest lie of all The Remain Alliance :

    “Well done Labour, LibDems and Greens for their magnificent, selfless cooperation to stop the Tories.

    “They’re yellow Tories”, “He’s unfit to be PM”, “Why should we stand down?”

    Bravo. Top work.

    Really. Well fucking done guys”

    Then Steve showed a diagram of a result where a Tory candidate won in a particular seat ( not by a stonking majority) and where if a ‘Remain alliance’ had been implemented via Lib Dems standing down ( they were 4th with 2151 votes) then Tory potentially would NOT have got in…Labour were biggest threat and were second…the Tories won by a mere 712 votes…oh dear oh dear…Get Brexit Done indeed.


    Meanwhile Scotland says …haud ma beer…

    Andrew Bowie’s seat Lib dems took over 6000 votes ( came third) there and SNP in second place so Tories held the seat by a majority of just 843 votes…

    Douglas Ross seat Lib Dems took 2269 votes ( came fourth) there and SNP in second place so Tories held the seat by a majority of just 513 votes..

    Just two examples ..also re above Labour also played a part in guaranteeing a Tory win…see Alister Jack’s seat, David Mundell’s seat where both Labour and Lib Dems third & fourth and where in BOTH seats SNP came second….

    The Remain alliance was NEVER EVER going to be played out in Scotland because of the Union….Union first…Brexit second… second as in a distant second in Scotland i.e. non existent….but a thinly (thick) veiled Union alliance England though it appears it was all just window dressing because Jo NEEDED to be King maker and Jeremy and Labour just needed to win so that they could ****&&&%%% ???? ( fill in the blanks)…..

  247. potter says:

    Sturgeon and the SNP have played a blinder.Unlike the Rev they sussed out long ago how this would pan out, thats why they were keen on a GE. Johnson is now boxed into a corner, refuse Sec 30 and support for Indy grows, grant, he may well lose. Johnson may be tempted to go early before the Brexit shit kicks in. There is an upcoming vote in Holyrood on a new Referendum bill, Slab may well abstain, vote for? Stop Brexit, the only way that will happen in Scotland is Independence. Time for this place to get its shit together, it may be sooner than you think.

  248. Clapper57 says:

    @ callmedave @ 4.16pm

    Hi Dave, Jackson Carlaw says he has been rejected but Coburn says he has had his membership card for several weeks and has membership number…who to believe…perhaps Jackson has seen Humza Yousaf’s tweet re cannot believe he, Coburn, is now in Tory party after despicable Abu Hanza comment he made about him….Jackson back peddling on Coburn’s membership to ‘mitigate’ potential damage…oh the irony when one considers the lack of caliber of some of the current dregs they have acquired as Councillors and others…MP’s and indeed their new PM.

  249. Liz g says:

    Shrodingers Cat @ 3.42
    Mibbi the Treaty next ?
    It’s just a guess,but…

    Everybody is focusing on going to Court over a section 30,and as Andrew Tickle said,the law is silent on it.
    Not to mention that there is no way of stopping Westminster writing a Law that would stop the Courts anyway….

    But the Law has plenty to say about international Treaties and no body that I’ve read is looking there!I
    Asking a Court to confirm Holyrood ( which was one of the original signatories ) can withdraw from the Treaty, is a different thing from asking a Court to make Westminster act on something that it haddnt written into law….
    I have no way of really knowing but it COULD fit with all the statements Nicola and in particular Mike Russell have been making.
    Not to mention Joanna Cherry has apparently said she’s turning her “legal” attention to Independence now!
    There’s also the Withdrawal agreement to work on.
    Westminster will have ended the EU membership but still be bound by it for a year.
    Holyrood could do that and within that year a vote is Holyroods to have no section 30 would be necessary!I
    And Holyrood could be free to Negotiate with the EU or EFTA too.
    All this would be happening while Westminster is up to its neck in Trade deals…but Trade deals without Scottish Resources….

  250. mike cassidy says:

    How the feck is Johnson boxed in to a corner?

    Can we have a section30?


    Oh, you nasty man

    At which point the amoral, lying charlatan bursts out laughing.

    Which is why – as not just the rev has been arguing – the legal implications should have been sorted out ages ago.

    (Unless, of course they were examined behind closed doors and offer no comfort)

    Hence the bluff of appealing to Johnson’s good nature!

    Let’s face it.

    Those 48 mps are going to be as useful as a hairdryer in a wind tunnel at Westminster.

  251. Capella says:

    @ shrodingers cat – there are some interesting comments under that Andrew Tickell article. Some are long enough to be articles in themselves. Some mention work done on this issue by others. Worth a read.

  252. Breeks says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    15 December, 2019 at 3:42 pm

    So could the Scottish Government take the next Johnson administration to court for refusing to make an order under Section 30? …

    General comment first… I wish there’d been a whole lot more analysis and debate about Scotland’s Constitutional options, even way back before 2014. To my mind, it has always been a missing part of the puzzle, and an inexplicable omission from our arsenal.

    I’m not at all disheartened, nor indeed surprised, that Holyrood would be bound by terms agreed in the Scotland Act, because in certain respects, Holyrood is indeed merely a devolved “super-committee” set up by Westminster, so it doesn’t seem unnatural for Holyrood to be bound by certain ‘in built’ fealties.

    A long time ago I framed a question about Holyrood, and whether the Sovereignty of Holyrood was red from the Popular Sovereignty of the Scottish people, or white, from the Divine Sovereignty from God/Monarch/and Westminster Parliament. Did Holyrood thus dispense red Sovereignty, White Sovereignty, Pink Sovereignty, or raspberry ripple Sovereignty? Hard to say because the UK “Constitution” is such a complete dog’s breakfast.

    But isn’t metaphor about coloured Sovereignty exactly same question as asking whether Holyrood needs a Section 30 Agreement or not? It rather implies the Holyrood ‘s ‘alleged’ Sovereignty is white and mainlined from Westminster, and it really ought to be red, and drawn exclusively from the Scottish people.

    But Holyrood is an anomaly. It is a forum where codified power is devolved from Westminster, and that power can be removed by Westminster, but, it is also the forum where Scotland’s MSP’s sit, and they are put in place by the votes of a sovereign people, which is a covenant between the people, and that is government outside of Westminster. I do not believe the law would be so cumbersome as to render Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty irrelevant. It would simply be absurd to conclude that Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty didn’t exist.

    International Law given due cause, would have to recognise Scottish Sovereignty, or, declare that it doesn’t exist, or at least lies elsewhere, and it strikes me the usurpers of Scotland’s Sovereignty would have to address the anomalies in that argument, and, for example, articulate precisely how, when, and in what piece of legislation, Sovereignty was removed from the people. How was a status formally recognised in the 1328 Edinburgh / Northampton Agreement, which recognised Scotland’s Independence in perpetuity, overwritten? Show me the document which performed this miracle.

    Scotland has a remarkable history and provenance as a fully independent and sovereign nation for centuries, before that independence was compromised by a shady piece of double dealing, corruption and Constitutional impropriety. Our origin and Constitutional legitimacy is far superior to that of the Union that was “bought and sold for English Gold”.

    I go back to my earlier comment… Maybe Holyrood and Scotland’s Devolved Parliament does have it’s guns spiked by UK Legislation, but that raises more questions than it answers. What happens if Scotland’s elected members of both Parliament’s sit outside of both Westminster and Holyrood, and swear allegiance to the sovereign people of Scotland as their “only” superior? The Scotland Act can lie on the floor inside the Holyrood chamber as a relic signed and agreed by a devolved assembly which no longer sits.

    I’m not a lawyer, and Andrew Tickell very much is, but ultimately it will be an International Court which sits in arbitration over a dispute about who is sovereign over Scotland, and quite literally, if there is any justice in the world, the only sovereignty at large in Scotland is that enshrined in the people. Red Sovereignty is the legitimate constitutional status of Scotland. White Sovereignty is the imposter. We just need a Test Case to establish it.

  253. Abulhaq says:

    The SNP mps will be required to take an oath of allegiance, effectively an oath to the British state embodied in the monarch.
    In all honesty, how can they do this?
    The Scottish revolt ought to begin there.

  254. McDuff says:

    Johnson has said a definate NO to Indy 2 as expected, so what is NS plan.
    Does she have one?

  255. Dr Jim says:

    An Englishman in a suit says NAW and immediately the Scottish cringe folk lower their heads and moan *We’re doomed* I suppose that’s what 300 years of being servile makes you, instantly subservient the minute that Englishman in a suit says NAW

    That’s why movies are full of Scotsmen and Irishmen touching their caps or tugging their forelocks while crouching slightly before the tall important better fed man from England wearing a set of much nicer clothes than than the Scotsman or the Irishman have on as they stare down at their worn out boots feeling inferior to the tall man from England

    You won’t see an Irishman from the Republic of Ireland ever doing that again or the tall man from England ever dare to patronise him into feeling that he should

    What one man can do another man can do, are we not men/women, are we less than the Irishmen who did it, we’re the same people who came from the four corners of the earth who made these places our homes, and that’s the nub of it

    Our homes our land our people, the tall Englishman has a home and we aren’t demanding his home he’s telling us he owns our home just like he did 300 years ago, put a red coat on it and it’s the same attitude

    It’s time to tell them NAW!

  256. mike cassidy says:

    Dr Jim

    If you’re advocating revolution

    Feel free to be up front about it!

  257. ALANM says:

    Ian Blackford just asked on C4 News if he’d be prepared to go to jail for organising an illegal independence referendum. Can’t believe how low our unionist media has sunk.

  258. ronnie anderson says:

    Bill Glen’s been taken to St John’s hosp he’s had a heart attack I hope he recovers All the best ya Auld Bugga .

  259. Dr Jim says:

    @mike cassidy

    If you’re a troublemaker feel free to be up front about it

  260. mike cassidy says:


    What was Ian Blackford’s reply?

  261. Colin Alexander says:

    Mr Tickell addresses issues regarding the SNP’s indyref policy.
    I think he’s basically right.

    As I’ve said all along, the SNP’s indyref policy was based on political cooperation. It has no legal force.

    If an indyref had real prospects of delivering indy, the UK state will not cooperate.

    Any referendum, if it was considered expedient to have one, could be held AFTER independence was declared and be used to vote on a new constitution for Scotland that declares amongst other things: ” the people of Scotland are sovereign”.

    The UK political union is a treaty.
    The people of Scotland are sovereign.
    The Parliament of Scotland was never legally dissolved (in my opinion).

    The Scottish MPs could reconvene the Parliament of Scotland as representing the sovereign people of Scotland.

    They could declare the political Union of Scotland and England, that created GB, dissolved.

    Scotland would not be subject to UK constitutional law, as the UK would no longer exist.

    Scotland would be relying on it’s pre-uk “sovereignty of the people” of Scotland constitutional sovereignty of the people.

    Scotland does not require to rely on international law but can argue that the exercising of the sovereignty of the people is in accordance with current principles of international law: the right of self-determination and democracy.

  262. paul says:

    It should’ve been: why?

  263. potter says:

    More useful than you, seen your type.

  264. ahundredthidiot says:

    Question is not whether or not BJ will grant an S30 – question is, what will Dominic Cummings advice be that BJ follows. Tories are arrogant, so they will take the advice from a ‘winner’.

    My money is on DC advising BJ grant an S30, but dictating the terms/question and pushing it through before the polls slide any further. Then full throttle fear (pound/out of EU/debt/federalism, etc)

    I think we could have an indyref2 in 2020, but not yet confident enough to take the Revs bet.

    Tories have already been saying that NS should be careful what she wishes for. They cannae hold their own water and the GE result changes everything, giving BJ an out to change direction.

  265. ALANM says:

    @mike cassidy

    As you’d expect, he didn’t say yes and he didn’t say no.

  266. robertknight says:

    I’m beginning to feel like the small boy who cries out “But he isn’t wearing anything at all!” in the Emperor’s New Clothes.

    And before anyone starts, Yes, I have said it before, but I fail to understand why people are still getting so animated about whether or not the UK Govt. brings forward legislation to enable a Section 30 Order, when in the event that it does, the HoC will ensure it gets no further than it’s First Reading.

    In 2013, the coalition government supported the “Bill to make provision, in accordance with paragraph 5A of Part 1 of Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, for the holding of a referendum in Scotland on a question about the independence of Scotland”. Whether Boris does so out of the goodness of his heart, or is forced to by the UKSC, there’s not a cat in hells chance that he’ll whip his backbenchers to support an equivalent Bill now, and whilst the UKSC can force the Govt. to introduce such a Bill, the UKSC can’t force the HoC to vote it into law.

    Without such a Bill being enacted into Law, the Section 30 can’t be enabled:

    Section 30(2) Orders

    7. Notwithstanding the alternatives available, the 1998 Act recognises that changes may, over time, have to be made to the reservations and exceptions set out in Schedule 5. Section 30(2) of the Act therefore allows the Schedule
    to be modified through an Order in Council. The draft Order must be approved by the Scottish Parliament and both Houses of the UK Parliament before it is made and can come into force. The initiative in proposing a Section 30(2) Order can be taken by either the Scottish Government or the UK Government, but both sides need to agree both the principle and the detail before an Order can be pursued.

    It therefore beats the hell out of me why people, and especially the SNP, are still tilting at this particular windmill. We’re out of the EU next month and they won’t ‘keep a light on’ forever!

  267. potter says:

    Getting tetchy, GE not go your way?

  268. Dr Jim says:

    The transition period keeps the UK within the EU until next December which is why the FM will propose the referendum probably for September and she’ll do that in the new year

    In order to exit the EU by next December Johnson will have to go for the nuclear option of no deal because he’s not going to get a trade deal negotiated in the transition time, Michele Barnier has already intimated as much and Scotland has plenty of friends quite happy to veto and delay matters until it suits both Scotland and Northern Ireland

    Boris Johnson has a big blustery mouth but he has no friends and there are plenty of those no friends within his own party still, what’s he going to fire the whole of the UK Tory party and replace them all, he needs the big money donors to the Tory party and many of them are moderates

    Will he dare, we’ll see soon enough

  269. callmedave says:

    65% of Scots voted for parties that accept the right of the Scottish Parliament to hold an independence referendum

  270. callmedave says:

    In other news during the election.

    Prestwick Airport cuts losses as revenue takes off.

  271. Terry callachan says:

    I think we should deal with Labour MP,s past and present and their staff and representatives differently from Labour voters past and present.

    They are two sets of different people we know that from what they have done to Scotland past and present.

    Labour voters just vote for what they believe in
    What they believe in has very often been shaped by the BBC , the newspapers and those Labour MP,s past and present their staff and representatives I mention above.

    It’s not the Labour voters we cannot trust
    They are just people like you and me trying to make a life in this beautiful but subjugated country of ours.

    The Labour MP,s past and present their staff and representatives on the other hand have lied to cheated and been underhand with Scotland’s people for a very very long time.

    I don’t want to hear the moanings and lies of Labour MP,s past and present or their staff or their representatives I’ve heard it all before I don’t trust them and never will
    They do the honourable thing
    Disband ,resign , wind up and delete the Labour Party from Scotland
    If labour in Scotland truly mean to support Scottish independence they will do this
    and start a brand new Labour Party independent from the one they are in right now
    They will register their new Labour Party in Scotland as a Scottish Independence Party

    Then and only then will they be deserving of trust

    In the meantime I say to all those already duped by “ the five “
    they are lying to you tricking you again just like they have done so many times before
    Dugdale will never ever support Scottish independence she’s part of the BBC lot not to be trusted ever.

  272. Terry callachan says:

    Weegingerdug has a piece today on his website saying that Monica Lennon Labour has said she thinks that the people of Scotland should have the right to a Scottish independence referendum

    He also says

    “” Alison Evinson, leader of the Labour group on Aberdeenshire council and president of COSLA who also demanded that Scotland must have the right to decide its own future, warning that democracy in the UK had become fragile be able to hold a referendum on Scottish independence.””

    In no circumstances should we ever believe these people in the Labour Party
    When will we ever learn
    They lie lie and lie again
    Remember the VOW

    And remember all these Labour people never apologised for the lying travesty the VOW
    That’s because they were laughing up their sleeve

    When Labour in Scotland are serious about Scottish independence
    They will form a completely different and separate political party registered in Scotland
    You will know it’s a real Scottish Labour Party
    Because it will have a different constitution and a different leader and
    Because they like us will be at war with the tories and the Labour Party and Lib Dem’s all of which are registered in England because they are English political party’s

  273. Jockmcx says:

    The snp was’nt born yesterday.
    I like guys like R.Peffers because thier not just hoping for independence
    They already know it will happen.
    I wonder if he knows just how important it has become, not just to people
    Who live here…
    I believe mr Chomsky was rooting for Corbyn,look deeper mr Chomsky

  274. wullie says:

    quite right Terry. They will be all for a new ref on independence just to con labour supporters the only trouble is that they will campaign hard for a NO vote, their pockets will be awash with English money.
    They have had their chance time to rid Scotland of these people for ever.

  275. Colin Alexander says:

    If any Labour politician genuinely supports the right of Scottish self-determination, they should leave the Labour party.

  276. ailsa craig says:

    I wonder how many on this site know that Labour and Conservative set up a limited company to fight the Better Together campaign. Look under Better Together, Ltd., in the Companies Register. Ms Baillie was a heid bummer in it.
    Welcome their change of direction but be careful! Do not trust too much.

  277. jfngw says:

    To quote Ged Killen, defeated MP Rutherglen and Hamilton West

    ‘I don’t like referendums, I think they should only be used to confirm public opinion.’

    I agree we should have declared a super majority of MP’s was a mandate to negotiate independence then held a confirmatory referendum organised by Holyrood with no input from WM or any politicians from outside Scotland.

  278. Effijy says:

    Ged Killeen was very fortunate to take that seat from Margaret Ferrier.
    She worked like a Trojan and spoke up in Westminster more in 5 years than
    Labour’s Tom Greatrix , whom she disposed, and Ged Killen.

    Never seen nor heard anything about Tom until the election came around again.
    I had no idea he was English nor that he was sent up here to a safe seat.

    Never seen or heard anything from Ged until he looked to be re-elected.
    Never knew he had a husband until a week before the election.

    Sums up Labour. Scots they thought will vote Labour no matter who we use, no matter if they
    Do nothing for their constituents.
    All they have do do is take orders from London.

    Gravy Train seat fir 30 years, maybe an Ermine rob and a most wonderful pension for being
    A useless puppet in the end of very long strings.

  279. Gary45% says:

    Over on WoS Twitterythingy.
    Turdo Fraser talking shite again, the name says it all.
    Lets all laugh at the Pathetic Turdo. he would make a good pantomime villain along with Groper R Thomson, obviously not for the matinee session.

  280. Patrick Roden says:

    polling has consistently shown that Boris Johnson is very unpopular in Scotland.

    Even the Tories initiated ‘Operation Arse’ as they wanted to make sure he would never become leader of the Tory party, because they knew the negative effect this wold have on the voters in Scotland.

    Ruth Davidson called him a danger to the union, or words to that effect.

    The main finding of all the polling done in Scotland about his unpopularity is that he epitomizes the upper class Englishness that looks down its nose to Scotland. Everything he says about Scotland supports the view that he holds us in utter contempt.

    So how does the SNP approach this?

    How about we don’t really want independence referendum straight away, because we want to wait until the full effects of Brexit begins to decimate Scotland, but we can’t really say this ‘out loud’.

    We need to keep our supporters and activists on side, so we must tell them that we want an independence referendum straight away.

    However, we know that Boris Johnson has came to power on a wave of English Nationalism, and that this form of nationalism won’t tolerate being pushed around by the uppity Jocks.

    So, what we do is start to gently push Boris around, telling him he better not deny us our referendum.

    He needs to show England how tough he is and tells us he will not allow another referendum at any time!

    How does this play out in the psyche of Scots hearing this bumbling Tory Toff telling us what we can and cannot do?

    Support for independence rises… (just like the petition for indyref2 is going through the roof).

    And the SNP keep demanding another referendum.

    Every single time Nicola asks for the very reasonable request for Scotland to ‘have or say in our own future’ and Boris says, No, some waverer thinks ‘who does that buffoon think he’s talking to’ and a waverer becomes a Yes.

    When we reach the point that it looks certain that the numbers are o our side (will probably be sooner rather than later) at this point the SNP, start playing hard-ball, and make the refusal to offer the people of Scotland our democratic right to vote on our own future, such an international scandal, that the Tories will fold, give us our referendum, and we will win.

  281. Dunadd says:

    Boris call for unity.
    Sorry Boris but now is not the time.

  282. Dr Jim says:

    Who was it who convinced people that referendums were a terrible bad thing to be despised by normal thinking people
    remember the woman Brenda from Bristol (oh not another one)
    as if being given the opportunity to have an opinion is such a chore

    It’s got to have been people who are afraid of public opinion
    because they’ll tell you *you vote for politicians to do the job for you* well that would be OK if they did, but they tell lies to get the job then do whatever their bosses tell them which most of the time is nothing like what you thought you elected them for, and in Scotland we should know all about that because that’s all we’ve ever had from Unionist politicians, they even break front page newspaper VOWS that were specifically invented and written for them so it made the promises easier to break, even the guy who invented the vow, Murray Foote of the Daily Record said so and folk still don’t bat a legal eye and just accept it with the usual shrug

    Other countries have referendums all the time, what’s wrong with offering people democracy, the ancient Greeks would’ve loved it, well maybe

    If we had more democracy we wouldn’t need spongers like Prof John Curtice to invent his version of what we think and a hell of a lot less *journalists* to squawk their opinions at us to attempt to lead us towards the party they support

    I like voting, I like the idea of more democracy so our government knows exactly what we think we’d like then they can move forward with whatever plan they can to put it into practice

    20 minutes out of your life a couple of times a year to help run your country sounds great to me, people spend more time picking their noses at traffic lights, I hate to see that a helluva lot more Eeuch!

  283. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Scottish Labour are considering backing Independence for Scotland


    Scottish Labour are considering how to keep their snouts in the trough!

    They are realising that 2021 will result in another mass loss of seats and the Monica Lennons of the world don’t want those seats to include hers.

    They also realise that an iScotland won’t allow Political Parties registered in a foreign country (like British Labour in Scotland) to stand candidates.

  284. Effijy says:

    Absolutely incredible response to the First Minister’s Independence Petition.
    Some 200,000 additional signatures added in just 5 days and now approaching 490,000.
    Looks like half a million signatures will have been gathered within the next 24 hours.

    The petition below demanding legislation that would stop any possibility of a Trumped up NHS
    is at 88,000 of the 100,000 Target.

    Perhaps a double result tomorrow!

  285. Breastplate says:

    I believe the Yes Movement have got to welcome anyone into the fold that makes positive noises about Scotland’s independence.
    There should be no resentment about the views people held in the past. People are entitled to change their mind and we should all look to the future.

  286. jfngw says:


    Margaret Ferrier’s first bullet point in her election leaflet was about Indyref, can’t remember the exact wording but something along the lines of Scotland must be allowed to chose its own future direction.

    Those who claim it was not part of the SNP pitch are being economical with the truth.

  287. Socrates MacSporran says:

    I have been saying for ages – the SNP’s Westminster MPs are not doing enough to make life difficult for the Tories.

    They should be making use of the Scottish Grand Committee, to properly scrutinise all the Brexit stuff, since it refers to Scotland. If everything had to be scrutinised by the SGC, with the in-built SNP majority, the passage of even the simplest bill would take a lot longer and be more-complicated.

    I don’t think it would take too long of the Tories plans being held-up by the bloody Jocks, before the idea of “letting them go” would begin to gain ground in Tory ranks.

    Use ERskine May, mount a guerrilla campaign inside Westminster, really upset them and they will let us go, just so they can do their stuff unmolested.

  288. jfngw says:

    I’m sure Jackson Carlaw’s line was ‘you had 24 hours to save the union’ the day before the vote. The Tories were routed in Scotland (only 7 seats lost but I call losing 54% of your representatives a rout). With this result I would assume Jackson Carlaw would cede his position and declare Scotland independent, it’s the honourable thing to do when you’ve made the vote a vote on the union.

  289. Golfnut says:

    The S30 is at this stage nothing more than smoke and mirrors, used by the SNP to generate heat and thunder till they are ready to act. The SG/SNP will just soak up all the shit thrown at them until then.
    Breeks, IMO is nearest the mark, identifying the real issue, which is Sovereignty. Our ‘right’,a word repeatedly and consistently used by the FM and others since before the GE should be taken note of, its not being used lightly.
    We have to get the paperwork out of the way first though, Nicola’s draft plan/letter to Boris and the referendum Bill passed. The law, Sovereignty and the Crown are all in play here.
    I wonder if indyref will be the first referendum Nicola goes for.

  290. jfngw says:

    Kenny Farquhasan tweets

    ‘If Labour’s prospects are limited to the people who currently vote Labour it’s fucked.’

    I think I would add:

    If Labour’s prospects are limited to the people who currently represent Labour it’s fucked.

  291. jfngw says:

    Thats’ Kenny Farquharson (it appears I can’t even copy a name that is actually on my screen properly, age defines me sometimes).

  292. Dr Jim says:

    Labour party reps are talking about Independence openly now so where’s that going to leave Robert Leopold at next FMQs, will the newly converted supporters of democracy be forced to sit at the back the way Kezia was because she didn’t like Corbyn, will Robin Leopard be standing on his own at the front bobbing up and down still saying no when the rest of them are sitting behind him mouthing *No me ahm no wae him* while waving their fingers back and forth, will Johnson Carwash’s face explode

    These events and more coming to a screen in your hoose soon

  293. shug says:

    Cant wait to hear Kaye on radio shortbreed this week

    How not to talk about an SNP victory. Doubtless the tories won

    ha ha

    cant wait for the toe curling

  294. Dr Jim says:

    When Cameron and Johnson and thie ilk were tumbling around the playing fields of Eton quaffing champagne and munching strawberries from big girlies blouses and sticking their bits into dead animals faces waiting for their God given elitist right to govern the United Kingdom by virtue of their birth and wealth there was a wee lassie from Dreghorn in Ayrshire pounding the pavements of Scotland handing out leaflets to people about a political party that nobody cared about

    That wee lassie was learning politics patience and deliberation and she hated the Tories with a passion for what they stood for, 30 years later she’s got the top job and nobody handed it to her she worked day and night to get where she is, but in all of that time her hatred for Tories and what they are and how she wanted them out of her country has never faded

    Nicola Sturgeon knows what she’s about and what she’s going to do, I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever she’s the 100% genuine article and if anybody can pull this off it’ll be her, she doesn’t need to do this she could have done many other jobs, she chose this and she’s had 30 years preparing for it

  295. mr thms says:

    shug @ 11:17 pm

    “How not to talk about an SNP victory.”

    The last article comes to mind.

  296. carjamtic says:

    The Decline of the Ancient Mariners

    They do not ‘own’ democracy (but on their limited time horizon, they will willingly deplete it, for their own immediate gratification).

    That is, they must get, while the getting, is there to be gotten.

    And while they understand that some people will feel the tug of the fiscal conscience, they do not, but still, they will throw them some sweets.

    Their Brexit election, represents a pre-arranged raid on the treasury, that no doubt over time will bankrupt it (still that’s a long way off, let the next poor sap deal with it).

    Welfare ? Go visit a foodbank.
    Social Security ? No problem, get a pension plan and get it early (save some cash for a rainy day as well).
    NHS ? Well stop smoking and drinking so much, but I know some very nice private insurers I can recommend.

    while his sperm lies cooling in the fridge
    his bovine was nearly in the drink

    (He laughs out loud)

    Nor hardly any time to think….

    When your onboard the sinking ship.

  297. SilverDarling says:

    I am pleased at the SNP increase in seats this time and the ensuing change in tone with regard to Indy ‘curious’ previous No voters.

    But to attribute that to the SNP campaign and strategy is a real stretch.

    There seems to have been a sea change in the voting public with people making up there own minds about who to vote for based on the lies and campaigns of other parties especially the Libdems. Both SLab and S Tory campaigned negatively and then at the end Jo Swinson put the icing on the cake with her mind numbing take on ‘what is a woman’. It was ignorance personified and let every other party off the hook.

    Nicola Sturgeon put forward a polished performance apart from with Andrew Neil whose gotcha machine gun questions and inability to listen was the same for everyone who sat down with him.

    The SNP diehards here still cannot see that it is not Nicola Sturgeon or the SNP that is driving Independence – it is the Yes movement who are thinking as a ‘hive mind’ for the greater good. The inconsistencies in the SNP campaign are now being dissected and will come back to roost at every interview, FMQ and at the next Holyrood election. They are reaping the negativity the majority of Scottish electorate felt towards Boris Johnston, Jeremy corbyn and Jo Swinson.

    To take that as vindication of the ‘strategy’ is naive and frankly disingenuous. It was a disjointed often incoherent campaign and the SNP were as surprised as anyone at the result

    For many of us they were the least worst option.

  298. Chic McGregor says:

    If the Tories had achieved the same UK result as the SNP did in Scotland, 81% of seats, then they would have had won 526 seats out of 650.

    A majority of 402.

    They think a measly majority of 80 gives them a mandate to leave the EU.

    But, apparently, the SNP result does not give Scotland a mandate for another indyref.

    What are they on?

  299. Breeks says:

    SilverDarling says:
    16 December, 2019 at 12:36 am
    I am pleased at the SNP increase in seats this time and the ensuing change in tone with regard to Indy ‘curious’ previous No voters.

    But to attribute that to the SNP campaign and strategy is a real stretch….

    I agree with you.

    I see this election merely as a return to form, but a benchmark of form which was set, and has remained remarkably consistent since 2014. The SNP’s poor result in May’s snap election was the “rogue” event, which looked like a dip in support, but never actually was. May’s election was an amalgam of Scottish apathy and indifference, which a dark money underhand campaign exploited.

    Take 2017 out of the equation, and picture for support is steady at a much healthier level, but one man’s looking steady is another man’s looking static. You could argue support has plateaued, but personally, every instinct tells me there is more support for Indy yet to come.

    They likely won’t, but I hope Nicola and the SNP “take it as read” that the Nation will back them when it comes to the crunch.

    I think however the SNP needs to address the Constitutional mess which clouds the Independence argument. I think it would be extraordinarily helpful if the Scottish Government was to publish a Wee Blue Book of it’s own, but focussed exclusively on Scotland’s Constitution, warts and all, and identifying the critical path so to speak, towards Independence, but ALL practicable routes to Independence, not just the preferred Option 1 Gold Standard Referendum.

    Nicola says that is the only legal path to secure Independence, but I’m sorry, I don’t believe that’s true.

    IF Holyrood’s capacity for independent (small ‘i’) thought and movement is indeed legally constrained by the Scotland Act or Supreme Court, then Scotland the Nation needs to ask itself some awkward and searching questions….

    If Holyrood is a “Government” which can be controlled by Westminster and / or the UK Supreme Court, then nevermind the personality or allegiance of the people in that Parliament, the very Parliament itself is just a puppet Government.

    We must ask ourself the nasty question whether Holyrood is just the “current” version of the sophisticated Constitutional deception that calls itself the Union. Westminster has given us a dog we think is a free spirit, but maybe it isn’t, maybe it’s a dog which looks free, but responds to Westminster’s whistle.

    Scotland I believe needs to grasp the thistle and clarify the Constitutional ACTUALITY, where we now actually stand, and clarify Scotland’s Constitutional rights and entitlements to remove all superfluous ambiguity and misinformation.

    We NEED a resilient, indefatigable appreciation of Scotland’s TRUE Constitutional position so that wave after wave of BritNat disinformation, guile, propaganda and indoctrination comes unstuck against the impregnable Scottish Constitution which enshrines Sovereignty upon the Scottish people.

    If the SNP was to produce it’s own Wee Blue Book detailing Plans A, B, C, D, and E etc, how Scotland CAN terminate the UK, I think the support for Indy would soar, like the FM’s petition.

    I would hope one of the Plans A, B, or C would be a distillation of the 2014 IndyRef Question, not asking whether Scotland should be an Independent Nation, but ask instead the prosaic and humdrum Question whether the Nation of Scotland should repeal the Act of Union.

    We are not creating our Nation. Scotland won’t be an infant which needs to learn how to walk and talk. Scotland is a wise elder which is being freed from bondage to taste the freedom it last knew over 300 years ago.

    If the SNP won’t do that, then might I suggest REV Stu, the proven master of Wee Books, steps up to do the job. Go for the Constitutional truth warts and all, and help all of Scotland to see through the lies and sophistry of the United Kingdom.

    Maybe a Wee White Book to chime with a WEE white Paper, and maybe too, drawn up with contributions from Craig Murray, James Wolffe QC, Scotland’s Lord Advocate, Nicola FM, Peat Worrier, and anybody else who can contribute weight to the Wee White Book.

    Give all off Scotland clear and concise stepping stones to cross our Rubicon to an Independent Scotland restored to ancient grace.

    Do it well, but do it quick. Time is of the essence.

  300. Old Pete says:

    Stewart Hosie, fantastic interview on Sky. He covers everything perfectly and it seems the SNP are well on in their offensive to regain Scotland its Independence.
    Go SNP.

  301. Dr Jim says:

    John McTernan ex Labour failed adviser says “The Labour party can’t support the Scottish people because that would be Nationalist, they must stick with the Union”

    Just think about that for a second

  302. mike cassidy says:

    Feel the love!

    No more powers set for Holyrood, says senior Tory

  303. Robert Louis says:

    Old Pete at 0831am,

    I didn’t see it, but glad to hear things are going the right way. I do however think that their is a real need for folk high up in the SNP grasping the reality, that when dealing with Tories, they are dealing with a bunch of out-of-control, amoral lying c****. And that’s putting it mildly.

    The SNP need to go in hard, and never blink. These shower of bast***s in London, tell lies with every single breath they take, and regard Scotland as their personal plaything.

    No time to waste, no time for ‘discussions’ or procrastination. Call indyref 2, THEN suggest Westminster agree a section 30. Asking meekly to please have a section 30 will simply not work, with the shower of bast***s in Number 10.

    So, we’ll have none of the same as before, asking for a section 30, then waiting until christmas is over, or whatever, before responding. It needs done now, no waiting, and if the answer is anything but YES, the Scottish Government needs to proceed with the referendum. Their is NO LAW banning referendums in Scotland. This is NOT Catalonia.

  304. Abulhaq says:

    BBC Sports Personality of the Year was staged in Aberdeen. It was at least a 95% English ‘personality’ affair.
    One nation state broadcaster fooling no one.

  305. callmedave says:


    A ‘tour de force’ on shortbread this morning nearly a whole 2hr of Scottish politics bouncing around ideas and studying the entrails.
    Old favourites on with J. McTernan invited to say very few words ‘Jeremy’ band and SNP worse. 🙂


    @shug says:
    15 December, 2019 at 11:17 pm
    Cant wait to hear Kaye on radio shortbreed this week

    You’ll get your chance at 09:00hrs this morning. 🙂

  306. Dr Jim says:

    Bryan Taylor reiterates the BBCs view that using the law in any way to achieve democracy is impossible because it’s very clear the UK holds the power immediately after two lawyers say the law is ambiguous and never been tested

    The BBC follows this up with an interview with Michael Russell and demand to know the plan B which he won’t disclose because they have’nt done plan A yet, then the BBC assert there isn’t a plan B or why won’t he tell them because they insist plan A is a failure

    When a sports person is interviewed about their tactics to win a boxing match or a football match they never spill the beans on how they’re going to do that, then the BBC will say *they’re keeping their cards close to their chest* but always in the case of the SNP the BBC always shout *failure*

    Looking forward to the BBC calling Neil Lennon or Stephen Gerrard failures when they refuse to discuss their tactics for beating each other, can you imagine the answers the BBC would get from those guys

    Every country that has state media has it for the obvious reason

  307. Ottomanboi says:

    A modern ‘holocaust’ is taking place in Chinese controlled East Turkistan so called Xinjiang.
    The oppression of the Uyghur people and their culture is being airbrushed by the might of the Chinese Yuan. Officially Muslim countries keep silent. The UN does not push the issue.
    The world sees no genocide….until it is too late and then sheds the hypocritical crocodile tears of sorrow.

  308. Breeks says:

    Dr Jim says:
    16 December, 2019 at 9:04 am
    Bryan Taylor reiterates the BBCs view that using the law in any way to achieve democracy is impossible….

    But it’s OK to be indoctrinated by the BBC that democracy can be denied by arbitrary veto of a referendum.

  309. gus1940 says:

    Just a small gesture of defiance but how about getting rid of the absurd titles of First Minister and Presiding Officer and call them what they are – Prime Minister and Speaker.

    In 2007 Eck got rid of Scottish Executive and replaced it with Scottish Government without WM making any serious attempt o stop him.

    On the subject of Civil Disobedience I can think of plenty Edinburgh Street Names that could do with changing.

  310. Dr Jim says:

    I read a comment from somebody who said that Michael Gove said that *Scotland can be Independent when the oil runs out let’s see what the Nats have to say about Independence then, the UK invested in the oil and gas industry not Scotland*

    The commenter said it’s like Scotland never paid in to this UK place

  311. Dr Jim says:

    @gus1940 9:33am

    George Square to Wallace Square or Bruce Quadrant or anything nice and Jocky sounding
    They could do that all over Scotland and really annoy them

  312. Billie says:

    Meanwhile in the Dumbarton West constituency where the SNP’s Martin Docherty was returned with an increased majority the shit is hitting the local Labour fan.

    Unhappy about another rejection by the electorate in a once rock solid labour constituency the brothers and sisters it seems are falling out to the extent of the losing candidate Jean Anne Michell intimating that she is going to speak to her lawyer today following one of the party members posting comments on Facebook criticising her for not taking the advice of local party members.

    With 1 MP out of 59 seats one does have to wonder what bubble Labour in Dumbarton West are living in. Their brand is tarnished and then some and the electorate know it, but Labour don’t seem to know it.

    Ah well, no doubt the lawyers will sort it out for them.

  313. Shug says:

    Low marks for Kaye this morning
    Nice well spoken unionist in Australia, show me the finances, strangely no time lag in voices.
    Must be very good line ha ha ha

  314. Fionan says:

    Wishing Bill Glen all the very best, hoping for a safe and quick recovery. Hang in there, Bill, we are so close to the endgame now. Thank you Ronnie for letting us know this bad news.

  315. FergusMac says:

    Aye, a Tory and a tollie…

  316. remo says:


    From Yes It’s time site (where Nicola’s petition resides) there is a load of information including this.

    “Our plan is to distribute An Independent Scotland: Household Guide to every household – all 2,460,000 of them! To achieve that, I am asking you to join me in making a donation to this specific project”.

  317. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sorry, unco self-righteous, we need all the converts we can get if we are to win through. (Obvious really.) More are likely to come from Labour than anywhere else, so that has to include them. Even better in a way if they stay in their own party rather than shift allegiance, since that is most likely to bring in other converts of the same mindset, and it also makes for a broader front.

    A formal NorthBritLab shift to support IR2 (not just remain neutral) would make the 2021 election a total bust for Unionism. (Even merely in prospect.) But unlikely. I remain sceptical of the NorthBritLab leadership. I can’t see them being willing to change, even if insincerely. Too bereft of original thought, too bitter about lost glories.

    In any case, the situation had better be resolved long before 2021. We have to press home our current advantage resolutely now. There can be no more hesitating or turning back. It’s advance or die.

  318. HandandShrimp says:

    I’m sensing a lot of frustrated anger from the die hard unionist camp.

    I particularly like “the SNP have no mandate they only got 45%”

    If they got say 55% I would say did a referendum. They have a mandate just go straight to negotiations. Then the unionists would be begging for a referendum.

    The Tory election leaflets, barely with the ink dry, were quite clear, Stop Indy ref by voting Tory. We didn’t we gave Nicola a thumping majority and a 20% lead over the nearest contender. The attempt to rewrite the campaign within hours of the result is pathetic.

    Onwards 🙂

  319. Bob Mack says:

    The SNP had painted themselves into a corner as Stu alwzys claimed. They could not claim horror at Scotland being taken out of Europe and then fail to join a coalition in Westminster to stop it, rather than prioritising independence as the main route to avoid Brexit.

    Hpoefully that is past. Brexit is going to happen by either no deal or a deal which gives priority to N Ireland interests over Scotland, accompanied by the usual “special case” trope.

    Our decks should now be cleared for action, but js no longer al! about the SNP as leaders. They are the conduit to independence but not the means. They must now focus exclusively on Indy. No more saving people of the UK from themselves. The people of the UK have made their choice on Thursday. They chose isolation,xenophobia, and dreams of Emlire rather than brotherhood and common good.

    We the people are Indy. We make it happen or not. Battle lines have now been drawn, and it is up to us to win this particular fight.

    This calls on us to put aside our differences, not necessarily of opinion, but of how we achieve victory with a common overall strategy.

  320. HandandShrimp says:

    Sod a referendum that should be. This autocorrect is utter pish.

  321. Scott says:

    Peter Oborne.

    Having watched the video here he names names just a pity he did not name the Scottish ones I don’t think that will go down to well with BBC and No 10 calling them out like that but its true I just wonder if Kuenssberg will have the nerve to answer Oborne.

  322. kapelmeister says:

    Good to see that the SNP are using Stewart Hosie on tv a lot more. He really is the party’s best conmunicator.

  323. Liz g says:

    Robert J Sutherland @ 10.39
    I can absolutely see Labour voter’s coming over to Indy,especially the ones who lived through Thatcher,and welcome they will be too.
    But I think your right about the Leadership.
    Now that they can’t run with a Labour government in Westminster being just over the horizon and will fix everything soo good Scotland won’t want to go to all the bother of leaving anymore. I suspect they are just gearing up to offer “Home Rule” of some description and try to get a third option on the ballot paper,and to give the impression that it’s safe to wait till after the 2021 Holyrood in like the British Nationalists..all of them…. have been pushing for.
    I don’t think for a minute it’s safe to wait and wouldn’t trust them not to back out of supporting a referendum because their terms and conditions of a third home rule question wasn’t on the ballot.
    We got a Mandate without them and they can get on board with that …. Or not….. But they don’t get to co-pilot this journey….

  324. Clapper57 says:

    @ liz g @ 10.06am

    Spot on Liz.

    In what ‘democracy’ do the LOSERS get to dictate the rules and the agenda ?

    Well it seems the answer according to Unionists is…in Scotland.

    Desperation with a big pinch of delusion it seems…Lol

  325. Dr Jim says:

    The Brexit party with zero MPs have declared themselves the winners of the general election because they made the Tories do what they told them

    Now that’s how you spin crap

  326. Breeks says:

    remo says:
    16 December, 2019 at 10:37 am

    From Yes It’s time site (where Nicola’s petition resides) there is a load of information including this.

    “Our plan is to distribute An Independent Scotland: Household Guide to every household – all 2,460,000 of them! To achieve that, I am asking you to join me in making a donation to this specific project”.

    That’s encouraging Remo, provided it isn’t lame and insipid, and scared rigid to use the words Independence or Sovereignty. The SNP is very linear in it’s strategy, and rarely acknowledges alternative strategies which may depart from the Party line. Very clearly, they are Democrats, but in my opinion, our legal arguments and constitutional precedents are every bit as compelling as any democratic mandate, even if democratic purists don’t like it.

    Stewart Hosie was very good on Skye, but Boris Johnson is unlikely to say No to a Section 30, he’ll just prevaricate indefinitely. Theresa May’s “Now is not the time” was not a spontaneous improvisation, but deliberate and calculated sophistry; a way to avoid saying Yes without actually saying No. Johnson will do likewise, and keep ducking and diving until we are Brexited.

  327. robertknight says:


    ” I particularly like “the SNP have no mandate they only got 45%” “

    Funny how the Tory’s 44%, to quote Boris, is a “Stonking mandate”.


  328. Dr Jim says:

    Apparently now Scotland has to apologise for being part of the UK who bullied the colonies which is pretty humorous coming from people who treat Scotland as one of those colonies and who to this day celebrate *The Crusades*

  329. cirsium says:

    @gus1940, 9.40

    Why copy Westminster titles? ‘Presiding Officer’ covers the function better than ‘Speaker’ and ‘First Minister’ is more modern than ‘Prime Minister’.

  330. jfngw says:

    We need to remind these ‘there is no mandate’ types the Tories called a referendum with just 36.9% support in 2016. More people voted for Remain parties in 2019. Going by their criteria the Brexit referendum had no mandate and the Tories leave strategy also has no mandate.

    There are many feeling that Johnson will merely ignore the resquest for the S30, he may do but he is not insulting the SNP he is telling Scotland’s people that he can just ignore them and their votes.

  331. Golfnut says:

    @ Breeks . 9:28.

    ‘ achieve democracy ‘

    I take that as a tacit admission that the gang he’s in, is being undemocratic.

  332. callmedave says:

    Blue scarfs for new tories first day in WM. How Jolly! 🙁

    NI getting more attention from big Auntie now and talks about Stormont reconvening begin today.

    Meanwhile wee Auntie wie a kilt telling us through renowned political expert big Brian in a blue tie “to suck it up Scots WM have got all escape routes covered”. 🙁

    FM not popular in the union press front pages. “Lost the plot” apparently. 🙂

    Jings! I’ve still got some popcorn within its sell by date but I might have to sprinkle on some vinegar to keep the tories happy.

  333. schrodingers cat says:

    point, the sg got 1%

    ergo, indy parties got 46%

    Robert J. Sutherland @ breeks
    it strikes my post about the end of the remainers and the option of euref2 was a tad brutal, even if true, there are many people who are devastated by fact.

    being right isnt always accompanied by a sense of smug satisfaction

    btw, i railed against salmonds edinburgh agreement, and the s30, on this site in 2013 exactly because it set a precedent, no one, no one, replied to my comments. smug and self satisfied 🙂

    Liz g says:
    I can absolutely see Labour voter’s coming over to Indy,especially the ones who lived through Thatcher,and welcome they will be too.

    why i called for stu to pay for a poll to assess exactly how much this swing, give the snp mps the ammunition

    Dunadd says:
    Boris call for unity.
    Sorry Boris but now is not the time. 🙂

    McDuff says:
    Johnson has said a definate NO to Indy 2 as expected, so what is NS plan.
    Does she have one?

    holyrood banned fracking, ineos took them to court over the legislation, sg qc opening address, “this law/bill has not been signed off by the queen so it isnt technically a law yet!! case dismissed. hint, it never was signed off by the queen

  334. Fireproofjim says:

    Dr Jim @9.38
    If Gove said “the U.K., not Scotland, invested in the oil industry”, then it is just another Tory lie.
    It was oil companies that took the risks and invested. Westminster merely took the licence money and the Petroleum revenue tax, which they rapidly squandered. They never invested a penny but even sold off Britoil, which was our national oil company, to their friends in BP.
    The U.K. is the only oil producing country which has NO sovereign wealth fund. They spent the lot, unlike Norway which has a two trillion dollar fund growing by about twenty billion every year.
    Norway has produced about the same oil as Scotland but we don’t have a penny and are portrayed as scroungers.

  335. Juteman says:

    jfngw says:

    16 December, 2019 at 12:47 pm

    We need to remind these ‘there is no mandate’ types the Tories called a referendum with just 36.9% support in 2016.


  336. Col.Blimp IV says:

    When the English PM refuses the request of the Scottish Government to hold a referendum. It will be an official recognition of Scotlands status as a colony.

    So far when asked – what if Boris says NO?

    SNP spokespersons have sheepishly went on the defensive and come away with gems like “but that wouldn’t be democratic”, “I know he has said he would refuse but that was during an election campaign, I think he will change his mind” and “we don’t live in a dictatorship, the wishes of the people of Scotland will be respected”.

    With no hint of the existence of a plan B.

    Nor evidence of the resolve to implement one.

    It really is TIME that the SNP stopped going along with the lie that the UK is an actual thing … It isn’t and it never has been, it is an illusion, a device to allow the Jocks, Micks and Taffs to retain a modicum of self-respect while behaving like shameless “Uncle Toms” in perpetual servitude to their colonial overlords.

    They should make it clear that the transfer of power over referenda to Holyrood is non-negotiable and that opposition to it is not compatible with being a Scot.

  337. Abulhaq says:

    We now have a straight path to independence, provided we are not distracted by the noises off on the left and right of that path. Imperious Britannia is on life support. The off switch is within our reach. This is no time for sentiment.

  338. Stuart MacKay says:

    Robert J. Sutherland @10:39am, Liz g @11:06

    WeeGingerDug,, makes a good argument for inclusiveness and I am sure that point won’t be lost on Labour supporters who now must be weighing the possibility of extinction in Scotland.

    With the party now effectively leaderless and as a result directionless it is going to take some time to get to a position where they can defeat The Boris. Five years is simply too short a time to realign the party and make it electable especially since Kuenssberg and her MSM Tory pals are doing their utmost to ensure the party is dragged strongly to the right.

    Labour supporters must be thinking that their best bet for remaining influential must be to consider independence. If the dream is Global Socialism then they shouldn’t worry too much about which side of the border they are on.

  339. Colin Alexander says:

    511,838 voted Labour.

    Hopefully, many of them will be indy supporters.

  340. shug says:

    If Labour move to saying they support Indy ref 2 you know their teams such as they are, are still staunch unionists and they will not deliver but they could take votes from the SNP.

    Labour cant be trusted

  341. Dr Jim says:

    Either Scotland is a country or it’s not and the bottom line I believe is to force Johnson to say stuff like Scotland isn’t a country, and Johnson doesn’t want to do that because he and they know it’s inflammatory and will rile up verminous jockstrap drunks even more and the column inches will accompany it because the press loves creating trouble even more than they love Johnson

    The referendum legislation will be completed soon and whether Johnson agrees to an agreement or not I believe the SNP will pass it through Holyrood then name the date of sometime in September 2020 just as the FM said, the only thing holding that back would be if the International community was not prepared to recognise that as a legal route to Independence but I also believe the FM has this part of the deal already negotiated with the EU and UN and accepted or she wouldn’t be looking so supremely confident at the moment

    Johnson saying NO a thousand times a day at the moment means nothing, there’s nearly a year to go and he has to try to negotiate trade deals with countries who’ll be saying to him, well we’ll just hang fire a bit on that until we know the situation on which country we’re buying stuff from or selling stuff to, so we’d rather not do a deal on Scottish food and drink and fishing with you England folk until we know you have the legal right to sell it thanks very much because Scotland if Independent might reverse everything you just did

    I believe the FM knows exactly what she’s doing, she’ll have Johnson and his crew grinding their teeth in frustration and threatening all sorts but he can’t do the gunboats or the soldiers or nobody will deal with him because he’s acting as a dictator, or to use Stewart Hosie’s words, a despot

    The noise is going to be deafening……I hope

  342. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Stuart MacKay says:

    “…and make it [Labour] electable especially since Kuenssberg and her MSM Tory pals are doing their utmost to ensure the party is dragged strongly to the right.”

    In the nick of time, a hero arose

    A funny-looking Taff, with a telescopic nose

    In the shape of Kinnoccio II, on the Telly today telling us that one of the Labour Party’s proudest achievements was taking the UK into N.AT.O., that Jeremy Corbyn was a stooge of the Kremlin propaganda machine, that the Manifesto he stood on was all pie in the sky fantasy, and that Labours “disastrous” anti-Brexit stance was all Corbyn’s fault.

    Watching these clowns rip each other to shreds will be an amusing sideshow as we wait for the final curtain to fall on the British Empire.

  343. boris says:

    Long-serving Conservative MSPs will be forced to stand down from the Scottish Parliament at the next election if they fail to win a constituency seat, under a radical plan by a leadership candidate to introduce fresh blood into the party.

    Jackson Carlaw told the Daily Telegraph they would only be able to serve three or four consecutive terms as list MSPs, who are elected using a complicated system of proportional representation to represent one of eight regions of Scotland.

  344. Effijy says:

    The Tories don’t do democracy outside of England.

  345. Capella says:

    Well it all happened in the US first. Steve Bannon and his billionaire chums manipulate elections and get Donald Trump elected. While the media try to scare us about Russian influence they fail to mention the American manipulation in plain sight.

    Here’s an interesting discussion between Chris Hedges and Paul Street about the left in America abandoning the working class and adopting identity politics. Thus the right wing Trump & Co scoop up the votes by pretending to care.

    Of course, the media will demonise any left leader who doesn’t adopt neo-liberal policies.

    From June 2018 – 28 mins

  346. Terry callachan says:

    Hugh Pennington no longer a practicing prof but still the person the britnat press go to for backup when they have a lie to tell about the Scottish NHS

  347. robertknight says:

    * Boris agrees to introduce a Bill to enable a Schedule 5 Section 30(2) modification through an Order in Council.

    * The House of Commons debates the Bill and, given a free vote, the Tory majority ensures the Bill is defeated at the conclusion of its First Reading.

    * Boris smiles in his usual smug manner at the SNP benches and effectively states “You wanted it. I gave you the opportunity. You have failed to persuade this House of its merits. Now sit down and shut up”.

    * The world sees a democratically elected body make a democratic decision. Nothing to see here peeps, move along…

    I seriously hope the people in Bute House don’t play chess!

  348. Dan says:

    (As per above, the link seems to be paywalled….if you go directly to the Irish Times, the full article is there….)

  349. callmedave says:


    But Auntie turns a Nelson eye to this group but reserves a best seat in the studio for the new solitary Scottish Lib/Dem.

    Extolling the virtues and history of the palace she has been elected to. Ah well! 🙁

    Anyhoo! Nice to see them there. Hope for not much longer.

  350. Willie says:

    Absolutely right Bob Mack @10.55.

    England chose Empire and isolation. That was their choice not ours.

    And already they speak with the belligerence of empire to deny democratic choice.

    Let us therefore resolve today to make this a hostile environment for those who seek to deny democratic will.

    England cannot and will not win. We will not let them. Johnston and his ilk’s writ does not run to Scotland.

  351. Capella says:

    @ callmedave – that’s why I don’t watch the BBC!
    Here’s a clip of Boris Johnston meeting Mike Pence in Downing Street in September and receiving the backing of Trump for BREXIT and the promised trade deal.

  352. Pete says:

    Another great day on the stock markets.
    Shares and, as a consequence, pensions soaring in value.
    Brexit dividend starting to come through.

  353. John Jones says:

    That’s me got my parking space booked for 11th of Jan. Anybody needing a lift from Cardenden Fife?

  354. kapelmeister says:

    The Scottish Tories told Scotland’s voters to vote for them as the only way “to stop indyref2”.

    Scotland’s voters didn’t in the main vote Tory. Nowhere near.

    Yet Boris Johnson tells us he’s stopping indyref2.

    And that folks is British democracy. British democracy now being a contradiction in terms until the Tories relent.

  355. Republicofscotland says:

    If Johnson won’t budge on indyref 2, and the courts are a non starter as is appealing to the international community, and waiting over a year for the 2021 elections is too far to wait. Johnson will love bomb us and offer who knows what to weaken our resolve. Then UDI must be on the table.

  356. Dan says:

    @Pete at 5:44 pm

    How about you consider more than just money you fuckin rocket.
    Could you possibly manage to consider the negative short and long term effects leaving the EU will have, beyond ejaculating into text your own base personal greed motivations.

  357. Confused says:

    bella is now styling itself – scotlands 5th estate
    – more like 3rd testicle, embarrassing, with no real purpose

  358. What’s happened to the “i’ts Time”yes poll it’s been wiped???

  359. What’s happened to the “i’ts Time”yes poll it’s been wiped???

  360. Bill Hume. says:

    Dear fellow Wingers…I apologise in advance as I’ve had a few…..OK more than a few, but is it not a great time to be alive in a soon to be independent Scotland?

  361. Armitage Shanks says:

    Capella @5:12 pm
    Whatever trade deals Bojo comes up with for Trump will be along almost identical lines of those the EU wanted to implement and failed, (no thanks to anyone here rejecting) and are now implementing under another name. TTIP now called CETA. Look them up.

  362. Sarah says:

    @ Richard McIntosh: I just came here to ask the same question. Where is the pledge page? Google Chrome won’t load it.

  363. jfngw says:

    Just think soon you will be able to tell your descendants ‘I was there. I help restore Scotland as an independent country, free to make its own decisions, ensure its children are not used as WM cannon fodder in their delusional wars, free to have its own voice in the world’.

  364. Effijy says:

    Here it comes!

    NHS sell of begins just days after the election.

    Coming your way Scotland- Unless-

  365. Graeme says:


    Here’s the link to the pledge

    I’ve no idea why Chrome wont load it you could try Firefox which is what I use and it loads fine

    It’s free and you can download it from here

  366. Dr Jim says:

    Bryan Taylor misrepresents the facts again on BBC Reporting Scotland, it’s like he’s had orders from somebody to repeat the same wrong line over and over while he engages in clairvoyance as to Boris Johnsons words as though those are facts as well

    How does a *journalist* on the BBC report news that hasn’t happened yet and even have the cheek to tell viewers what the FM is thinking

    This is some newscasting from the BBC institute of Psychic brainwashing

  367. McDuff says:

    Your post just shows how thick some posters on this site are. I’ve voted for the SNP for forty years and I and my family ache for independence so I don’t appreciate an ignorant comment that is so far from the truth it bears no resemblance to who I am.
    But getting back to my original post,tell me , what is the plan?

  368. Sarah says:

    @ Graham: thanks for the helpful suggestion. Me and tech stuff aren’t really on speaking terms so I tried going through the SNP website and that let me see the numbers who have signed. I signed months ago but, like Effijy, like to keep an eye on what’s happening!

  369. crazycat says:

    @ Armitage Shanks at 6.24

    TTIP now called CETA.

    I don’t disagree with the argument you are making in your post, but CETA is not a repackaging of TTIP.

    CETA is an agreement between the EU and Canada, and pre-dates TTIP. Negotiations for CETA were well-advanced before those for TTIP (an agreement between the EU and the US) even started. The flaws that became apparent in CETA (such as the Investor State Disputation Settlement Mechanism) contributed to the cessation of TTIP negotiations (though I fully expect son of TTIP to emerge sooner or later), but CETA itself was signed on 30 October 2016.

  370. Thanks it’s back up on my browser, Safari.

  371. mr thms says:

    mike cassidy @ 8:42 am

    “No more powers set for Holyrood, says senior Tory”

    There will be over 100 devolved powers returning to Scotland from the EU.

    Some will be shared with the UK Government.

    Vat powers that could not be devolved under the EU Vat regime can now be.

    As part of the Smith Commission the Tories wanted devolution of VAT.

    There are several UK government departments moving out of Whitehall into a new Civil Service hub in Edinburgh in March.

    Two more hubs are under construction in Glasgow.

    Our self-ordained Minister for the Union even has a Cabinet Room for his ‘Government’ to use.

    I wonder if referring to Boris as ‘The Rev’ will catch on?

  372. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @John Jones (5.46) –


    Who else is going to Glasgow for AUOB on Jan 11th?

  373. jfngw says:

    Nicky Morgan pole-vaulted into Boris Johnson’s cabinet.

  374. Effijy says:

    The AUOB march on the 11th of January will have over 100,000 peaceful protesters their
    In great spirts all demanding a fair and just society free from the corruption of Westminster.

    Wonder if organisers could request files roughly 10 abreast so that a proper undeniable count
    Could be presented to the blind folded reporters from the BBC, Sky, the Daily Hail and the Police ?

    I know we have fun and I’m guilty of moving back and forth enjoying wonderful people from all quarters out to have a fun day and Mark Boris’ cards for him.

    What chances Bojo could address us at the end and persuade us fascist corrupt with Westminster is the best way forward for Scotland?

  375. North chiel says:

    “ Shug@ 0240 pm “ yes agree Britnat ( “ Scotlab”) not to be trusted . They may well come out in favour of Indyref2, as a rouse to pick up list seats at Holyrood to enable them to regain 2nd spot from Tories . Thereafter , I am willing to wager that they will continue to oppose Independence.( If an Independent Scottish Labour Party is formed then I might then believe they would back Independence) . I am not discounting that the FM could call an early Holyrood election on a straight Indy mandate if no legal referendum is forthcoming. In that scenario I think that it is vital that a 2nd Independence Party is formed to contest list seats ahead of this . It surely has to be a “Yes 2” Indy party ( sorry Stu , I think this party should be representative of the wider Yes movement) . Could it be led by someone such as Angus Robertson ( if he resigned from the SNP ? ) or possibly Lesley Riddoch and/ or associates ? . It could then be SNP 1 YES2 for Holyrood ? I assume that the SNP will win a majority of first past the post seats , but we need the unionists to be significantly challenged on the list . However, I do hope that we have our mandated referendum before this and hope that we can win our Independence at the second time of asking .

  376. Col.Blimp IV says:

    If Westminster refuses to sanction a referendum it will be time to stop calling our opponents Unionists – And give them a new Moniker, be it Collaborators, Uncle Toms, Bojo’s Bitches or something more appropriate.

    Because if/when that day comes – they will no longer be people with a different political perspective, no more or less valid than our own – They will have become the enemies of Scotland and enemies of democracy.

  377. Dr Jim says:

    John Nicolson on the 9 being interviewed by the BBC amateur journalists the question again *but the Englishman in the suit says NO what are you going to do* John Nicolson replied “We’re not children to be told* then the amateur journalist lassie dies the voting numbers comparison nonsense like a good wee subservient Britnat then I left the room to put the kettle on in the mood to take life but settled for a Twix with my tea

  378. Dr Jim says:

    John Nicolson on the 9 being interviewed by the BBC amateur journalists the question again *but the Englishman in the suit says NO what are you going to do* John Nicolson replied “We’re not children to be told* then the amateur journalist lassie does the voting numbers comparison nonsense like a good wee subservient Britnat then I left the room to put the kettle on in the mood to take life but settled for a Twix with my tea

  379. HandandShrimp says:

    No harm to AUOB but the middle of January isn’t a great time to hold a march. We could be knee deep in snow or going backwards in the teeth of a named storm. If few make it because transport is off the media will just report no one turned up.

    Here’s hoping for a Saharan plume of air for the 11th.

  380. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Ian Brotherhood

    I’ll be there Ian, I really think everyone who can manage should turn up at these marches,it is increasingly important to show our strength not only to the Regime but to fellow Scotts.

    For those who have never been along to one I can report that it is a great day out among your own people.

    Tens of thousands of Scottish people demanding their rights.

    The pipers the Saltires and possibly a couple of beers at the end.

    Due to the date some really warm and waterproof clothes advised.

  381. Liz g says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 7.26
    I’ll be there …. And I especially want to talk to you…

  382. Gary45% says:

    Ian Brotherhood@7.26
    The wife and I are making a 350 mile round trip, hope we have some winter sunshine.

  383. PacMan says:

    I don’t doubt that the North England voters who switched from voting Labour to Tory will want a Brexit that doesn’t close factories there as well as big government style spending that they had wanted from Labour.

    I’m sure this won’t go down well with Tory traditionalists. I wonder if these North England Tories will be like their Scottish counterparts who will keep their heads down and keep their nose in their trough and follow the party line or will they fear for their seats and start becoming more assertive?

    If the latter happens and Dominic Cummings and his puppet Johnson doesn’t give in their demands, will the Tories big majority as solid as everybody in the MSM is smugly making it out to be? Could it be something for the SNP to exploit especially after Brexit is passed and the nitty gritty of it needs to be dealt with?

    I know a lot of people, including myself, are downhearted at the result last week. However, the Tories having to depend on seats in left wing strongholds is interesting and the result may not be catastrophic.

    It really is about fighting one battle at a time.

  384. Fergus Green says:

    Ian Brotherhood @ 7.26

    I’ll be there

  385. PacMan says:

    Col.Blimp IV says:16 December, 2019 at 8:46 pm

    If Westminster refuses to sanction a referendum it will be time to stop calling our opponents Unionists – And give them a new Moniker, be it Collaborators, Uncle Toms, Bojo’s Bitches or something more appropriate.

    Because if/when that day comes – they will no longer be people with a different political perspective, no more or less valid than our own – They will have become the enemies of Scotland and enemies of democracy.

    People last week voted overwhelmingly SNP because they wanted to stop Brexit.

    The GE result didn’t go as planned to give the SNP leverage to get a Brexit deal that the voters wanted. However, I mentioned in my previous post that there could be instability in this new Tory government and if so, the SNP could be in a position to exploit this.

    It isn’t going to give us a S30 order but it can give us a soft form of Brexit that minimises the damage of leaving the EU as much as possible. If the scenario I mentioned does happen, it can only happen with the considerable amount of pressure from the Scottish public.

    A lot of those who voted for SNP last week don’t want independence but they have to accept that the threat of increased support for independence could be used as bargaining chip to put pressure on the Tories to get a softer Brexit. They will also have to accept that in the worst case scenario that an independent Scotland in EU is a lot better than being stuck in a hard Brexit UK.

    This is only going to happen when these Unionist voters who lent their vote to the SNP to stop Brexit realise that Unionism is no longer to their personal benefit or self-interest. This does sum up what you have said Col.Blimp IV although not as bluntly. Will now be the time when the penny finally drops with these individuals?

  386. Rm says:

    The English media are away to start putting on the pressure big time against everything Scottish, every Independence minded Scots person should try their best to buy the National the only way we have of getting truthful information, you won’t get it from any other paper or television station or BBC radio Scotland, it’s going to be an onslaught from the English government

  387. Katie says:

    Hahaha no msp or mp for Tory party available to talk to John McKay? Are they already taking lessons from their master?

  388. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Colonel Blimp IV @ 8.46pm

    How about calling them: Completely Unreconstructed Nasty Tory Scum, or C.U.N.T.S. for short?

  389. Capella says:

    @ crazycat 7.05 pm – hats off to you for that impressive response to armitage shanks – are you made of porcelain armitage? – I wouldn’t know where to start to begin.

  390. boris says:

    The Whitehall Civil Service gets involved in politics tactically delaying Brexit and the Tory’s didn’t like it. But when they did the same thing in the 2014 Scottish referendum the same lot were praised, promoted and awarded top civil service awards

  391. Liz g says:

    Crazy Cat @ 7.05
    What Capella @ 11.42 said 🙂
    Are you coming to the Glasgow March on the 11th ?

  392. Clapper57 says:

    Is WOS Twitter a/c suspended ?

  393. Tam the Bam. says:

    Looks like it!

  394. Margo says:

    Wings over Scotland twitter account has been suspended.

  395. David says:

    Looks like the Wings twitter account has been suspended. At some point in the last three hours?

  396. Liz g says:

    boris @ 11.42
    Well… It’s the one thing I hope Johnston ” gets done” and gets done fast.
    We need Whitehall to get out of our way… And any damage he did to it would be .. Karma… And I say that only because I can’t spell Shardidin….freud thing that is really what it is,so it is 🙂
    AND as fecken usual spell check is not my friend… Hmmm

  397. Liz g says:

    Aye any excuse…. He’s been sayin it and taking all sorts of ” incoming ” fur saying it…
    We all know the Rev keeps on the right side of the “Inter web” and we know he knows what he’s doing.
    This ( being very careful,as best I know how,and hating it too ) indirect policing of the internet should concern us all.

  398. Tam the Bam. says:

    ‘Schadenfreude’ Liz.

  399. crazycat says:

    @ Capella and Liz g

    I’m certainly intending to be on the march, but it will slightly depend on things like the weather.

    As for CETA/TTIP, I spent a fair amount of time campaigning against both, to no avail in the first case. Until 5 July 2016, it had not even been decided whether it was a bilateral agreement between the Canadian government and the European Commission, or a multi-lateral one that would allow for vetoes. The distribution of the text of the agreement in all the EU official languages was accompanied by an announcement of the decision.

    I was relieved to find that it would be sent back to the member states, because that did at least make it possible for it to be stopped. Of course, no-one did veto it – the Walloon government objected (making Scotland’s powerlessness all the more galling), but they were very rapidly placated and it went through.

  400. Capella says:

    @ Liz g @ crazycat – Don’t think I’ll make it to Glasgow on 11th Jan but I am thinking about it. The weather might be bad for travelling so far.

    Wings twitter is suspended as others have noted. The most likely reason is accusations by the trans community. But that’s only a guess based on the numerous accounts suspended for being gender critical.

    We can probably look forward to another blog post very soon.

  401. Liz g says:

    As I’ve said before…
    Think about not having Wings…. And think hard..It’s a satellite site and we bloody well need it.
    I can get conspiratorial too!
    IF,and while a bit “out there ” But not impossible …
    The Pundits get their way.And
    And we get all Cationla?
    WHO is it do you think would be FIRST to go?
    So… Aye turn yer back if ye must..
    But not ” me too ” because I’m selfish and I like to be able to argue my case.

  402. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 12.25
    I don’t know if it’s any better for ye!
    But I’m seeing a twin March in Inverness…X

  403. Liz g says:

    Crazy Cat @ 12.25
    Fingers crossed for the weather… Hope to see ye there 🙂

  404. Ruglonian says:

    Wings twitter account banned 🙁

  405. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – Inverness would be half the travel time. 5 hour round trip rather than 10. But if the roads are skitey then I’d think twice.

    Here’s a short clip of Evo Morales explaining why he was overthrown by a US backed coup. Lithium basically. Hope Scotland doesn’t have any.

  406. Ruglonian says:

    Right twitter folks, we’ve got a task!

    The account is banned permanently, Stu’s appealing obv, but if we @ in @WingsScotland and @TwitterSupport when complaining then it may well help!

  407. Liz g says:

    Ruglonian @ 12.42
    This is Ireland all over again… “Tag GRA on to Same Sex Marriage” and get it in on the down low!!
    This is Social Engineering and an attempt to change the Zitegist of human development..

    If anyone thinks ( and I’m looking at you Dr Jim ) that Nicola is not going to go through the same inquisition that Jo Swinson went through ..yer delusional….
    How much damage do ye think it’s going to do her?
    I know, that you know,that we know, that she knows… It’s fuck all to do with Indy… But watch and see!!!
    It will come back to bite!
    It’s… As the Rev has been sayin … an argument we didn’t need to be havin.
    A front we didn’t need to open up!

  408. K1 says: do you know it’s been banned permanently?

  409. Liz g says:

    K1 @ 1.17
    I/We don’t know…. The point is …love or loathe the GRA.
    He shouldn’t be!!

  410. Ruglonian says:

    Liz G – you’re exactly right about the scrutiny that’s coming for the FM!

    Re the twitter ban – straight from the horse’s mouth.

  411. Bean an Tighe says:

    Oh no…what’s going on with twitter?

  412. defo says:

    He’d do better if he told them to shove it.
    It’s poisonous 🙂

  413. David says:

    Hello K1, Yes Ruglonian is correct.
    Stu said on his other twitter account, @RevStu, which he mostly uses for videogames stuff, that his Wings account has been “Permabanned”.
    Not good.

  414. jockmcx says:

    Ian blackford on sky,if you missed it

  415. Liz g says:

    Ruglonian @ 1.34
    I’m feelings so bad I didn’t listen to you and join the Twitter thing.
    I just never got around to it..
    I’ll join tomorrow as soon as I can And support the rev .
    I don’t think people realise that I’m a mum of a Gay child/ Women and could be persuaded,but have questions.
    No body wants any one hurt…. We just need to look at this law!!!

  416. Ruglonian says:

    Liz I’ll help you navigate twitter tomorrow – it’s a weird place to get used to without a guide – and I’ll introduce you to all the gang so you’ll be right at home before you know it!

    *now realise that I’m going to have to provide this service for all Wingers – fine, bring it on – Cactus, I’m looking at you next boy* 🙂

  417. Liz g says:

    Ruglonian @ 1.34
    Actually.. I do my YES Friends a disservice.
    The YES Bikers gave my -Late Daughter in Law – an escort to the Crematorium.
    They never asked
    How she identified
    What Pronouns she Preferred!
    They called her Sister..
    AND we the family who morned her
    Loved them fur it !!!

  418. Liz g says:

    Ruglonain @ 1.59
    Ha… are you actually sayin.. Your going to take me to a place that’s too weird fur Cactus??
    …. OMG….. Where do I sign 🙂 .. LOL…

  419. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ian B, count me in at the march – assuming we are not knee-deep in the beast from the east , though thousands of saltires and lions rampant fluttering in the breeze on a snowy white background would look very bonnie indeed.

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