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The British sense of fair play

Posted on September 07, 2019 by

We’ve talked about this subject before, but a couple of findings in a new poll today by Survation really caught our eye.

And that tells us something quite profound about the UK’s voters.

Because while a clear majority – 53% vs 47% – would now vote Remain in a rerun of the EU referendum, when the same people were asked for their PREFERRED – not predicted but preferred – outcome of the current Brexit process, 54% voted for Leave options and just 37% for Remain.

In other words, the people of Britain no longer actually want Brexit, but they still believe it should happen because that was the result of the referendum.

That is a loud and clear warning to the parties currently trying to overturn the 2016 vote by a variety of, let’s say, quasi-democratic means. Whatever their personal views, the electorate does not take kindly to having its collective will disrespected by people who handed the decision over to voters and are now telling them they got it wrong and must be overruled by their betters.

(Most also disapproved of the opposition’s blocking of an early election, which is aimed at interfering with the Brexit process, with barely a third backing the move by Labour, the SNP and the Lib Dems. A sizeable 30% of Labour voters and 16% of Lib Dems thought it was wrong to refuse the election.)

The politicians of the opposition are playing a very dangerous game. For everyone’s sake, we can only hope it doesn’t backfire and leave us with PM Nigel Farage.

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    1. 07 09 19 20:56

      The British sense of fair play | speymouth

    158 to “The British sense of fair play”

    1. Bob Costello says:

      I wonder what Scotland only figures would say

    2. Jock McDonnell says:

      I think the difference is explained by some voters not really thinking to deeply about the contradiction in their answer, all depends on the order of the questions I guess. Still, a pretty strong showing for Brexit.

    3. Raymond says:

      Or…
      British voters still think Brexit should happen.
      But would not be unhappy if it did not.

    4. Sandy says:

      Early OT (sorry)

      BBC 2 just now. Rise of the Nazis. Disappointed to find it’s not about the Boris cabal.

    5. Robert Louis says:

      People are annoyed at the block of an election, but from converstations I have had, it seems they do not know WHY it was blocked. In other words they thought no deal was now blocked, so could not see a reason to block the election.

      As we know, of course, a no -deal is not yet blocked.

      My problem, is that the SNP are getting zero from their standing by Labour on this. In my opinion, the SNP should have long ago got us out of this nonsense, instead of joining in with Westminster’s games. That is NOT what we elected them for. They were elected to get us independence, if Scotland was going to be taken out of the EU against its wishes, NOT to try to thwart brexit.

      The polls suggest right now, that if an election were called, the SNP would get 50-plus MP’s, but folk are right to ask the question, so what? When the SNP got amost all the seats in Scotland what did they do with it? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. They didn’t even threaten independence in order to get Smith fully implemented.

    6. Mac says:

      “Because while a clear majority – 53% vs 47% – would now vote Remain in a rerun of the EU referendum, when the same people were asked for their PREFERRED – not predicted but preferred – outcome of the current Brexit process, 54% voted for Leave options and just 37% for Remain.”

      This can be explained as a form of juxtaposition. People have changed their minds now, and they would vote accordingly, but some feel uncomfortable doing this. Its due to cognitive dissonance. But it’s hardly people answering because they are in favour of ‘purist democracy’

      The majority recognise that Brexit was mis-sold.

    7. Alt Clut says:

      It doesn’t matter. Scotland voted to remain. SNP fights for remain but will ultimately lose due to numbers in England.General Election comes. SNP sweeps the board in Scotland but Brexit comes due to numbers in England. We push for Indy with new mandate. Article 30 refused. We go to UN. Shape of struggle changes. Dark dreams of 1920’s Ireland haunt us. My crystal ball runs out !

    8. Bob Mack says:

      For anyone uncertain of how “the mob effect” works,here it is in all its glory. Constant messaging from MSM has sold them the poison chalice of “respect” for the will of the people, notwithstanding that they would change their mind

      Sound bites and front pages rather than common sense control and set the agenda for millions . They do not want to feel out of step with what the majority appear to be choosing.

      Baaa Baaa Baaa.
      Farage as PM . OMG.

    9. Bob Mack says:

      Incidentally, as late as May of this year,Farage was talking about abolishing Holyrood.

    10. John Thomson says:

      I take heart that 69% prefer remain or a deal

    11. Bob Costello, that was also my immediate thought

    12. HandandShrimp says:

      While I think No Deal is a foolish road to go down I do have concerns about subverting Brexit as a whole through dubious alleyways and byways. If England wants to Leave then it is not our job to prevent them…nor theirs to prevent us remaining through a second independence referendum and going our own way.

      I am hoping that Boris sees the sense in supporting a section 30 request. After all what has Boris to lose? A fiscal deficit and 59 opposition MPs? It might actually give him the majority he needs in the HoC to deliver Brexit for England. I’m not convinced he cares that much for the Union and if the polls are to be believed it would not be a Tory vote loser.

      If Boris is prevented from leaving by parliament tying his hands and then there is an election Corbyn might not gain as much as the polls indicate. Asking complicated questions about future events is a tricky thing to poll. The voters would punish Boris and support Farage if he was seen to blink on the 31st. However, would they blame him if the opposition were intent on jailing him? I’m not so sure. Boris may actually whip up some sympathy rather than lose votes to Farage. This is an unholy mess but with an election sooner rather than later it is time for the SNP to start tacking the sail and moving the ship in line with Scotland’s remain/independence mandate.

      One other thought. We have a mandate in the current parliament, if that is ignored then another mandate in 2021 could just as easily be ignored. If as expected the SNP wipe out the Tories in the coming election then No is not an acceptable answer.

    13. Alex Birnie says:

      What a dishonest post! When asked the question, remain or leave, the result was 53/47 in favour of Remain. However, if you “finagle” the issue by asking multiple questions, you add up the TWO leave options, and declare that a majority of voters want Brexit. That’s just BS. If you asked the question with two Remain options, and only one leave option, are you suggesting that it would still be 54/37? You are doing EXACTLY what you have been accusing unionists of doing for many years ….. playing with figures to make them match the message you want to get across….. Let’s hope the polling that you intend doing before launching Wings is a bit more honest than this……

    14. Fergus Green says:

      Perhaps after a campaign which exposed the lies out forward by Leave in 2016 would focus minds and give our neighbours the confidence to vote Remain in a re-run, without feeling anti-democratic.

    15. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Louis @ 19:40,

      Suppose the SNP won every WM seat in Scotland. They would still be overridden by the built-in 10:1 English majority. Is that their fault?

      We might quibble about current SNP strategy and tactics, but it’s not their fault they have to work in the bent system they find themselves in. They’re actually trying to rescue us from it!

      “Threaten independence”? Scary! Jeez, that would look credible with only 45% of the electorate clearly behind them.

      Perhaps if you were more specific about what concrete steps the SNP should now be taking that they are not, we might be more convinced. (Or not, as the case may be.)

    16. Bob Mack says:

      No finageling reqd. The two option indicate the majority want to leave under certain conditions.
      It is very clear they would change their original vote,but that option is not on the table at this time.
      They are only choosing from what is actually currently on offer, and the majority chose a leave option.

    17. Muscleguy says:

      This is the problem with binary referenda and representational democracy. We elect people to parliament we think will do the best job. We can contact them but we are only one voice each.

      The Executive and MPs are party to things the public is not, which is how it must be. Therefore they are often best place to make judgements about the national interest.

      If we want a more Swiss style consultative democracy we will have to agitate and vote for it. But we might not like the result, the Swiss often don’t. Beware the law of unintended consequences.

      So if a majority in the UK parliament, which likes to claim it is absolutely sovereign, are against Brexit seeing it correctly as harmful to the national interest they are entitled to do things like look at May’s deal and reject it as deeply harmful to the national interest. The PM’s own brother doesn’t think his brother’s govt is in the national interest.

      If the executive put up a proposal which is rejected by the house it is up to that executive to think again. To perhaps go to the country and explain no deal can be had and leaving without one would be catastrophic so in the absence of any other route forward Article 50 is being revoked.

      Some would object but many would think ‘fair enough’. But our politicians are spineless. Also as you retweeted today Rev Farage’s party has fought lots and lots of elections and won precisely one seat. They are like the FibDems and how the SNP used to be, stretched too thin countrywide. They might win in Clacton or Sunderland but they are never goingt to sweep the board because Brexit might be the only media story it is not people’s only concern and tribalism matters in elections.

      In the IndyRef we chapped the door of a lovely old gent who was clearly very torn. He had been a union organiser so was deep into Labour and socialist solidarity. HE was also a good sort of Scot and part of him was taken by the idea, but he was Labour. We left him in friendship and marked him as firm unionist.

      There will be those who liked the take back control rhetoric but will never vote either Tory or Farage. This will matter. It’s a bit like only 30% of Scots are hard core never surrender unionists and there are still Indy supporting Labour, LibDem and Tory voters.

      Not everything is binary. Though sex is to a far more extraordinary degree than Stonewall etc think. You cannot queer everything because only a minority of people are queer.

    18. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Alex Birnie @ 20:22,

      You make a telling point there, though it might principally be directed at the pollster. The choice selection panders to the cherry-picking tendency.

      A portion of “Leave” voters might well vote “Remain” rather than “no-deal”, if those were the actual alternatives available. Something that the hardline EngNats carefully dodge in their calls for “respect the people’s will”. The people’s will that they are afraid – very afraid – to re-check.

    19. Cubby says:

      Last week Johnson visited a farm in Scotland with new Secretary of State against Scotland Jack.

      Jack says ” Boris that was a lot of bullshit you spread across the Commons last week”.

      Johnson says ” I know Alistair my supply of bullshit is running low.”

      Jack says ” I can help you out there Boris old chap I’ve got a massive bull that produces prodigious amounts of bullshit.

      Boris says ” Jolly good show Alistair but is there enough to see me through the next three months”.

      Jack says ” no problem old chap wait till you see the size of my bull.”

      Hours later TV pictures show Johnston leading a massive bull into a barn obviously intending to restock his bullshit supply.

      So there you have it Westminster doesn’t just take our whisky, electricity, salmon, oil and gas it even takes our bullshit.

      Johnson will be stinking out Westminster for a good bit longer.

    20. Cubby says:

      I think it’s time next week for Adam Tomkins Tory MSP to tell Johnson ” it’s the law Boris”.

    21. ScottieDog says:

      The big money behind the media has set the tone. The deal is all but done IMO.
      I think people have to feel the pain and then a revolution will be on the cards.
      God help us.

    22. galamcennalath says:

      I think a lot of voters (especially in England) are totally confused by what it all means and therefore what they are being asked.

      And I think this has been achieved by design. An ill informed population makes it easier to hijack democracy. Misinformation, false promises, and plain lies are so prevalent that a lot of people can’t understand. Just look at the Express in any day – the bullshit alter reality on there will be believed by some.

      There will be people around who still believe Brexit will free up money for services, or that trade will continue smoothly, or we won’t even notice any difference.

      I’ve heard people say utterly ridiculous things about what they think is happening.

      Not so long ago there was talk that a big chunk of folk backing ‘no deal’ thought that meant ‘status quo’ because no deal for change had been done. The analogy with trading in your car – you don’t like what’s being offered so you walk away with no deal done i.e. everything is the same as before you started negotiating. I have no idea whether this still stands for some ‘no dealers’

      My personal opinion is most people do actually get it, but the minority who don’t is still huge.

    23. Terry callachan says:

      I think Boris Johnson will accept the Irish backstop , it is the main sticking point that prevented brexit happening .
      Once Boris accepts the Irish backstop a good many MP,s from all party,s will support the progress of brexit on 31/10/2019.

      The DUP will become irrelevant
      The conservative whip will be restored to those it was withdrawn from and Westminster will praise itself for delivering what the people voted for , they will hold up the three years of arguing about brexit as proof that Westminster and the House of Lords really really cares about what the people voted for.

      Then once the dust settles it will set about causing trouble in Northern Ireland just to show that the border isn’t an issue it’s the catholic’s to blame.

      As for Scotland , they will reduce Scotland’s budget and threaten total control

    24. George Brown says:

      We need rump uk in the eu. Remember the stooshie about hard borders between Scotland and england at the last referendom.

    25. Confused says:

      O/T – our very good friend, “Loki” has made a program for the BBC and is now playing.

      – first impreesions are “eh?”

      it meanders around the borderline of credibility, diving toward self-parody – I am definitely going to watch it. I am thinking it may be one of those -unintentionally- hilarious programs.

      I have a theory about “loki” – I believe it is LIMMY, in deep disguise, doing some stupendously clever piece of cutting edge comedy. Winning the Orwell Prize, for a PRANK, is just fucking world-class … or mibbe these guys

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtuQpcOmI5Q&t=141s

      “cheap holiday in other peoples misery”

      I blame the SNP – Nikki is selling 10quid bags at the bottom of the mile. obviously.

      drugs are bad mkay, dont do drugs

    26. Capella says:

      The majority obviously have had time to think about the consequences and now would choose remain. That is the sensible option. But they are constantly brainwashed into “respecting” the vote – even though they were lied to and cheated.

      Who in their right mind would vote to be impoverished within a corrupt and unequal state governed by supercilious toffs?

    27. galamcennalath says:

      I posted this on the last thread …

      My daughter just got a targeted Facebook advert for ‘Scottish’ Labour. Clearly targeting young people.

      Where did that money come? Who’s paying high online advertising cost on behalf of ‘Scottish’ Labour? Knowing what we know of political ads on Facebook, this to me is significant. Not only is money being spent, but more importantly someone thinks it’s worthwhile trying to bolster Labour here. Why? Is it just London Labour spending in Scotland or is a bigger pro Union campaign?

    28. Breeks says:

      I actually think that all makes perfect sense.

      Left to their own devices and common sense, most rational people would see the logic in Remain. However, once the flag waving BBC indoctrination kicks in, the herd instinct takes over and they’re all content to be led up the garden path by the rotten UK media.

      We folks in Scotland should know all about this… but the media is still incredibly powerful and manipulative.

    29. Alex Birnie says:

      Bob Mack @8:31pm

      “No finagling required”. Of course it’s finagling! If Sturgeon cannot get a Westminster government to agree to a section 30 order and, as a last resort, were to declare before a general election that a haul of 50+ seats for the SNP would trigger a Declaration of Independence and the result was the same as 2015, with the SNP gaining 56 seats with 49.8% of the vote, by Stu’s logic, the unionists would be able to say “Sorry, but you haven’t got a majority of the votes, close, but no cigar.

      If you talk about binary referendums, talk about binary referendums. If you talk about multiple choice elections, then talk about multiple choice elections. You can’t take a result from one kind of plebiscite and apply it to another type, just to suit your argument. That is a form of dishonesty.

    30. Artyhetty says:

      Re: Capella@9.18pm

      It would seem that some, too many, really are not in their right minds. That is what is scary about the whole Brexit shambles, it has massively exposed peoples’ ignorance, and emboldened the far right of the UK, and the UK is actually England because Scotland ‘doesn’t matter’ .

      Either way re Brexit, as ‘part’ of the disgusting union, a bullying, nasty, narrow nationalist Britnat union, Scotland is totally royally screwed if she does not escape really soon.

    31. Bob Mack says:

      @Alex Birnie,

      The Unionists may do that very thing in any event.

    32. Capella says:

      Oops – blow for Boris, Amber Rudd quits Tory Party.

      Amber Rudd quits cabinet and Conservative party – https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49623737

    33. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Amber Rudd resigns (again) but this time also quits the Con Party, citing an absence of fair play all round.

      The EngNat coup: the gift that just keeps on giving.

      (Provided we don’t have to live too long with the consequences, at least.)

    34. Cubby says:

      Bloody hell if the Tories keep leaving the government at this rate that bampot Ross Thomson might even get a job – making the tea?

    35. Breeks says:


      Muscleguy says:
      7 September, 2019 at 8:34 pm
      This is the problem with binary referenda and representational democracy. We elect people to parliament we think will do the best job. We can contact them but we are only one voice each.

      The Executive and MPs are party to things the public is not, which is how it must be. Therefore they are often best place to make judgements about the national interest…

      You can look at it that way Muscleguy, but you can also see our MP’s as the product of our Local Authority production lines for jobworths, crooks and nepotists who specialise in sophistry and unaccountability. As Councillors and lackeys they’ve been trained for decades how to milk the system and hide awkward or grubby truths behind layers of bureaucracy while not making a difficult decision on anything.

      When it comes to any quantitative analysis, they are typically hopelessly out of their depth, like lambs to the slaughter, and then we the public get lumbered with craziness like PFI contracts, new schools that fall down, a bizarre Parliament with a runaway budget, all the corruption in Edinburgh, the Edinburgh Trams fiasco, and perpetually rotten Shitholes like SBC in St Boswell’s.

      The sharks and parasites in the system have been rigging the system for decades and no politician has the courage to “drain the swamp” as the delightful expression goes. Most just don’t have the caliber or strength of character to do the job, so the shite goes on for another session, father to son, with minimal disruption.

      I’m not saying all MP’s and MSP’s are like that. Maybe it’s just the ones I’ve met.

    36. Ken500 says:

      People change their minds. Human nature. Sometimes from day to day.

      There is no mystic meg.

      One constant support for SNP/Independence increasing. Demographics. Tories going down. Reap what they sow. An absolute shambles.

      Another one down, another one down. Another one hits the dust.

      It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic. A bunch of imbeciles. People are dying because of the total mess. The Tories are killing off their own supporters in the rest of the UK.

    37. boris says:

      Mundell and Davidson hired a hotel suite outside Edinburgh and gathered party director Lord McInnes, future Berwickshire MP John Lamont and long-time activist Kevin Ancell.

      Over the next 48 hours, the quintet planned the resurrection of the Scottish Tory Party, which they assumed would take ten years rather than the five Davidson actually needed.

      https://caltonjock.com/2019/09/07/lamont-the-tory-dangler-for-berwickshire-roxburgh-selkirk-hell-do-anything-to-achieve-power-for-himself-including-ripping-off-the-hands-that-feed-him/

    38. Street Andrew says:

      Stu, I think you are now agitating for the hard No Deal option so as to improve the impetus for Indy for Scotland.

      That’s what this piece feels like.

      The people who don’t see why the opposition proto-alliance doesn’t want a GE on Tory terms are simply not paying attention.

    39. HandandShrimp says:

      At what point can the opposition continue to refuse an election. Until only Boris is left in the Tory Party?

      Just a thought 🙂 I’ve lost count as to where the numbers now sit.

    40. twathater says:

      As Breeks @ 9.20pm correctly indicates IMO the bbc and other broadcasters working with the rest of the MSM have colluded with the ERG and the uber fascists to deliberately manipulate the brexshit vote

      The lies and corruption involved has only lightly been touched on and has effectively been covered up , the involvement of A Banks and the offshore tax avoiding media owners aligned with dark money and cambridge analytica have literally corrupted democracy

      I sincerely hope that when the voting public realise they have been conned and used by the establishment that they rise up and take appropriate action against their abusers and their willing accomplices , there are a lot of people who are massively suffering currently and it is due to get worse , so really in their position would retribution taste sweet

    41. Bobp says:

      Twathater, i know, where are baader meinhoff when you need them.

    42. Col.Blimp IV says:

      I have dropped various Brexit comments into conversations with “ordinary”[not politically active] people, hoping someone might pick up the ball and express some sort of opinion on the matter.

      No success whatever, not even in a bloody oil terminal where a Dutch tanker was busy disgorging 20 million liters of diesel, where I asked the manager, if he expected much in the way of extra red-tape to be generated after Brexit.

      The only occasion where the subject was expanded on was when a guy told me a story about one of his mates haranguing his SNP MP for not showing up at a crucial vote … turned out that the MP was attending his mothers funeral(Oops).

      Yes a lot of people think Boris is a bawbag but they have thought that for years.

    43. Bobp says:

      Ken 500 9.53pm. The tories might be killing off their own senior citizen vote in england ken, but i’m sure they are now trying to cultivate the vote of the young uber englander immigrant hating fascists instead. So they’ll still win the day down here sadly.

    44. CmonIndy says:

      Wouldnt a PM Farage do very nicely thank you?

    45. Fireproofjim says:

      It is inevitable that some form of Brexit will occur and so, whatever happens,. the SNP mandate for Independence will be valid.
      Nicola’s attempts to soften the terms by her suggested compromise would have left the U.K. in the Common Market and the Customs Union This may yet be the result.
      If this happens we have the ideal situation. We will still have the Mandate for Independence but the border with England will not be a barrier to trade or travel. It looks pretty good to me, and the E.U. will be grateful to Scotland.

    46. Bobp says:

      Ken500. I also should have added the pensioner vote costs the tories money. Living longer etc, the stupid younger uber fascist immigrant hating little englander costs them nothing. Great cost saving vote retaining strategy.

    47. Phronesis says:

      A fantastic march in Perth today , our friends in Wales are also on the move. The British state is dying in a ditch along with British democracy.
      The flame of independence is burning intensely and Scotland will march, sing,debate and vote its way to independence.
      Independence for Scotland the country is a clear and simple message,a positive and hopeful message that is forward looking, internationalist, inclusive of all .The people are writing it and strong political leadership will deliver it-we cross that finish line together.

    48. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      This is embarrassing. I had somebody coming to me pointing right into my face and saying ”Get yourself back onto Wings. It’s being destroyed and taken over by bams” and a couple of more reasonable comments on my friends list saying about the same.

      So I might as well get myself banned from it.

      If publicly calling somebody a homophobe is offensive and unacceptable and actionable , which it is, calling the First Minister of Scotland a “liar” is equally as offensive and unacceptable and actionable. It is also damaging to the independence cause.

      Finally, for those who don’t yet understand, Scotland’s FM is doing exactly what she should be doing in trying to stop Brexit which is vast majority desire of the Scottish people who elected her.

      Should she be instrumental in helping to halt Brexit support for the SNP and independence will further soar.

      Should she fail and we are dragged out of Europe against our will support for the SNP and independence will also further soar.

      The material change of circumstance included also as justification for a referendum evidence that a majority of the people of Scotland supported independence.

      That is exactly where we are right now. Only us can throw it away. We’re having a good shot at that right now and how the “bams” on Wings are enjoying it.

    49. Col.Blimp IV says:

      “That is exactly where we are right now. Only us can throw it away. We’re having a good shot at that right now and how the “bams” on Wings are enjoying it.”

      A drunken bam?

    50. Cubby says:

      Terry Callachan@9.12pm

      You are a cheery soul Terry. Must be a bundle of laughs in your household.

    51. Liz g says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 11.35
      Which begs two questions then!
      Firstly…. How are we supposed to let Nicola know that we are demanding independence,which is what she’s been sayin that she wants us to do,if we don’t make a fuss about it?
      And
      Secondly…. Do you realise that you’ll have to be a bam to get banned? Do tell 🙂

    52. DCoi says:

      I’ve been telling anyone that will listen to me ranting that this all ends with a Nigel Farage PM. Politicians will do deals to retain power without regard for the longer outcome and no sense of their collaborators true intentions. When opposition is split the “peoples party” will win.

    53. call me dave says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      Of course you should be posting here and Alex too if he’s listening. Hope you stick around.

      PS:
      I said half seriously yesterday that Boris might end up in the Brexit Party with Farage getting a working majority.

      Nothing can be ruled out. 🙂

    54. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Liz g at 11.56

      Certainly not by publicly calling her a “liar”.

    55. Liz g says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @ 12.08
      I’m listening?

    56. yesindyref2 says:

      The AUOB march in Perth had two SNP prominent figures, actually marching. Swinney and Wishart. And The National this morning, aware of the many criticisms about the SNP npt bothering with the marches, saw fit to say:

      Contrary to some reports, SNP politicians are regular attendees

      One prominent commentator said less than 2 weeks ago

      “Lots of calls for indyref soon. But what would help express the mood is one huge public demo, not AUOB, but called by the SNP, attended and addressed by them.”

      which seems like a mild rebuke to me, but has now said “Well done, John.” after Swinney attended, and it does beg the question; if Indy supporters hadn’t complained about the SNP having a very low profile on these marches, would Perth have seen Swinney and Wishart at the march?

      I daresay Sturgeon winced a bit at the word “liar”, well, that’s feedback and without it the SNP can’t review its methods or strategy.

      Maybe Sturgeon will now be at the Edinburgh march …

    57. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says:
      8 September, 2019 at 12:08 am
      Liz g at 11.56

      Certainly not by publicly calling her a “liar”

      If you can defend your chief civil servant who was accused of lying by a judge can then say that they have complete confidence that that person she is guilty by association.

      Fly with the craws get shot with them.

    58. Stewart says:

      A Nigel Farage government would be great for Scottish independence.
      The SNP’s line has been to oppose any form of Brexit because Scotland voted 62% to 38% to remain.
      That is the bottom line.
      However opposing a No Deal Brexit might paint us into the corner of supporting some sort of deal. I don’t think it will happen but it might.
      More likely,a new referendum will pitch remain against Brexit in some single form and the SNP MUST vote Remain even if it’s members secretly prefer No Deal Brexit for obvious reasons.
      Scotland will be independent when the people of Scotland want it to be. That will manifest as a majority in a referendum. There is no other way.
      If Scotland looks like it is going to vote for independence then London will not resist for long. Suddenly everyone is talking about when not if. This talk of a mandate is a red herring. The single most important thing we can do is win support on the ground for independence. Only that will build momentum for victory. Pissing about with mandates and facile strategies is a distraction. Independence supporters are telling me that we must be up to 60 or 70 per cent by now but anyone who has knocked a few doors knows this is wrong and that our support is weaker than most of us think. Brexit is helping us but if we think we are ready for indyref2 than we are deluding ourselves.

    59. jfngw says:

      @Alex Birnie

      I don’t see any dishonesty in the piece, the numbers are there to see.

      In a straight rerun of 2016 remain would win. Drilling down finds that the majority actually believe we should leave (or that is their real preference).

      It is a problem with polls with multiple questions, you will receive answers that are often contradictory when you ask a question in a slightly different format. I believe we have even seen these contradictions in Wings polls in the past. That’s why a poll with too many questions doesn’t always produce any more clarity.

      And I can guarantee if the SNP receive less than 50% it will declared by unionists as overwhelming support for the union, no matter how many seats the SNP have. Reminds me of when a manager decided to ignore the agreement made with staff, his retort was ‘I make the rules’, this is exactly how WM will respond.

    60. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dave McEwan Hill

      I’m not convinced that debating whether the FM is a liar or not can be construed as being helpful to the independence cause.

      Any more than I am by the propagation of scary monster stories(lies) about how the wheels of industry will all fall off the minute the UK leaves the EU.

      and they must be lies, unless Project Fear’s Indyref portfolio was actually true and I am fairly sure that we all (you included) denounced it as er..lies.

    61. Benhope says:

      twatheater @10.26.

      The reality is that the MSM still has a massive impact on public opinion.Many of the older generation still buy papers and listen to the BBC.

      Control of the media is the very crux of this argument.We all know that broadcasting is not devolved.Many on here have said that if we had control of media Scotland would have been independent many years ago.

      Other posters have advocated a media regulatory body to call out blatant lies and attacks on the Scottish Government and the SNP.

      Should the SNP set up this media scrutiny panel ?

    62. Liz g says:

      Aye well ye can aw be “cynical” or ” helpful” or try to point the “rebuttal unit, that wasn’t” ….
      But don’t be thinking fur a “New York Minute” we don’t notice.
      I’m trying to have a conversation with Dave McEwan Hill..a genuine one… Cause he’s worth it….
      We could all work it through.
      Of course we could.
      We’ve done it before.
      If ye genuinely want to be part of the solution,for fucks sake,don’t be a part of the problem….

    63. pool9 says:

      Keep the heid everyone.

      White noise and information overload is another way of inciting disengagement.

      A great deal is happening, very quickly.

      The goal remains the same. Independence.

      Brexit is a confusion, a distraction, an opportunity, but the individual events of brexit flash by too fast to grasp. (David Davis, anyone?)

      Stand fast for independence. Keep building the grassroots, keep talking to neighbours, keep making the difference – keep pointing out how the confusion in Westminster is not ours to answer, only ours to escape.

      Thay way lies freedom. I hope.

    64. Tackety Beets says:

      Heading home from tonight’s gig & as things have been fretful recently I thought I would share my observations from the stage tonight.

      Early in the eve I clocked a male wearing a “Mochit” T shirt, een o yon evens wi a UJ ooer his chest.
      A mean faa the hell wid weer aat?

      Later in the evening all eyes were on 2 very nice females dancing happily along with others. Up pops yer man and he swaggers “like Erchie” thro’ the crowd to the 2 lassies stands in front of them with the body language “I’m here dance with me”.
      Together they turned towards him, pointed to his chest laughed then turned away! The UJ guy had to skulk back to the bar , back thro’ the crowd. I could hardly do anything for laughing. Still sniggering now.

      Why would you dress knowing 50%ish of the folk canna ………..

    65. twathater says:

      Liz G 1.16am now that’s the no nonsense sensible diplomatic response I expect from you Liz g ( smiley fing )

      DMH no one on here wants anyone to leave the wings site I personally have respect for all the long term posters , readers and lurkers , but there is only one moderator , Stu , it is his site and he determines the threads , everyone has an opinion and they are entitled to hold their opinion but so has the Rev , the Rev has posted what many people think and believe ( albeit strongly ) but it is his and others opinion , anyone has a right to disagree with that opinion and no one is stopping them from doing so

      It was a common and regular occurrence on here that anyone disagreeing with the SNP or Nicola’s stance was targeted and rounded on as being either a troll or a unionist or plant which still goes on

      I would say that 99.9% percent of people coming to the site are independence supporters and come for info and interaction with people of like minds but that doesn’t mean they are SNP supporters or members , I am 68 and have lived through the lies and corruption of liebour governments and politicians in Scotland , so naturally I do not trust any politicians promises and I would say most people of my age are similarly suspicious
      Nicola has made promises to the people of Scotland I hope with all my heart that she keeps those promises , I do optimistically trust her but am reservedly pessimistic
      I visit lots of indy blogs and lots of the owners of these blogs are also questioning the wisdom of Nicola’s stance but I don’t see the same concerted effort to rubbish and denigrate their opinions
      I like everyone on here are desperate for independence and our patience is stretcheddddd but we also know that timing is crucial and the fear of losing this opporchancity through the brexshit clusterfcuk would be devastating

      There were many posters making snide abrasive comments to the Rev questioning his commitment to independence and threatening financial support , FFS anyone who questions his commitment after ALL the shite he’s had thrown at him for supporting independence needs there head looked at

      Sorry for long post but felt I had to say my piece , let’s put this behind us and fight the REAL enemy Westminster

    66. twathater says:

      @ Benhope 12.55am yes ben there was supposed to be a rebuttal unit set up to specifically target the lies and obfuscation shit out by the MSM and broadcasters but it appears to have gone AWOL that job is being done by indy blogs to the best of their ability
      Unfortunately this highlights that their is no centralised mechanism for this crucially important lies and misinformation exposer

    67. Alt Clut says:

      The way forward is always the same. Stay calm, build the grassroots and talk to people. The UK is becoming ugly and vile at an accelerating rate.A focus on the limitations of our own people only serves our opponents. Stick together and ignore self important posers.

    68. Mark Russell says:

      Brexit – what are the consequences?

      End of the United Kingdom as a political union – Good?
      An independent Scotland & Wales? – Good?
      A united Ireland? – Good?
      An English Parliament – Good?

      We don’t need border controls or custom checks – Switzerland doesn’t have them. We just need agreement. Where’s there’s a will….and the will of the English people is ver much in favour of the above.

      What’s the problem?

    69. Ken500 says:

      Economic ruin and death. Falling living standards. Falling life expectancy. A failing society. A world recession. Endless illegal wars. Etc, etc. The Westminster imbeciles and their supporters, a minority, are a disgrace. They will fail. The absolute mess. The Tories could not make a bigger mess. Killing off their own supporters. Beyond belief. The average member over seventy and male.

      Johnston will be gone. So will the rest of them. They will have to have an election they can lose. Typical. It happens all the time.

      Support for SNP/Independence rising. A constant. A united Ireland, Independence when people vote for it. Demographic changes.

    70. Ken500 says:

      There is a difference between a GE and a Ref conditions. The two statistically wise cannot be compatible or related without qualification. Not comparable without reference. Different, different different. Different electorate. Different questions, different argument, Different turnout. Different 5+party system or a two question Ref.

      How people vote in a GE and a Ref are not necessarily related. The normally, non not politically engaged voters decide a Ref outcome. Off the polling system. Out of the loop. The Polls are often inaccurate. Polls are used by crooks and fraudsters to manipulate the result. Unreliable especially in tight margins. There is no mystic meg.

    71. Fergus Green says:

      WG Dug has been on fire this week:

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/

    72. Willie says:

      Use it or lose it.

      It’s an old saying and how true.

      Majority in Hollywood, majority of Scottish MPs.

      Now who could I be talking about.

      Meanwhile we get kicked from pillar to post by a tinpot clown with no majority and elected by no one but the cretins in the Tory party.

    73. Capella says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill – great to see you back posting. I agree that to accuse the FM of lying is an insult. The example cited isn’t proof of lying as it is perfectly possible to want to stop BREXIT and to stop NO DEAL BREXIT at the same time. No lie necessary.

      But we don’t read this blog for its famed politeness and deference.

    74. Willie says:

      Time we brought our MPs back home.

      Scotland has a fully functioning government in Hollyrood. Westminster has a non functioning government in absolute chaos.

      It is not the SNPs job to support Westminster. Their job is to support Scotland.

      Time to change tack Nicola and time that you use the mandate that you have.

      Use it or lose it before they remove it.

    75. ahundredthidiot says:

      OT

      Good luck to all those running the Great North Run today,

      except the drug cheats……No Sir, not the drug cheats

    76. RM says:

      Scotland has its own legal system why can’t we use it to change things, it’s hundreds of years old and probably not relevant to modern life, get things changed we really need new laws and ideals for the 21st century.

    77. Footsoldier says:

      Mark Russell 05:08 “Switzerland doesn’t have border controls or customs checks”.

      It most certainly does, I have been stopped several times when entering entering France and buses and lorries get checked too. Admittedly a lot go through without being checked but the do have border posts.

    78. Roland Smith says:

      Currently 35 SNP MPs tip the balance and defeat the Tories at every vote. In order to try to prop up their 13 Tories we get VAT and Farming money back that was never achieved when we had all but three seats in HOC.
      The SNP could win every seat in Scotland but if it’s a Tory majority game over, influence zero.

      So either get a section 30 while having leverage or make it clear that a GE will only be supported on basis of them getting section 30 if they have majority of seats.

      Big picture defeat No Deal if possible and get second EU referendum as that will tear Westminster system apart, we stay in EU and wave goodbye in 2021.

    79. Robert Louis says:

      Ferguse Green at 0749am

      I agree regarding the wee ginger dug. I personally regard his views and those of some on here, such as DMH, as a kind of trusted and genuine barometer of where things are at.

      I hvae just finally had time to read one of WGD’s articles from the last few days, and it makes a great deal of sense.

      I am among those on here, who in recent times has been critical of NS and the SNP, but I also still rip into the idiot unionists when time allows. I am absolutely not a unionists, but have been called that on here, as well as being a troll etc.. I am of the opinion that no party of government is beyond criticism, and that the SNP could very, very easily do a ‘scottishy Labour’, by taking pro indy votes for granted, and then NOT delivering on their clear mandate for independence. Labour went the way it did in Scotland, because it took votes for granted, and subsequently ceased to give a flying f about what Scottish voters wanted. They are now effectively dead in Scotland.

      We need all voices and many. I’ll be at the Edinburgh indy march, and I’ll be looking to see just who from the SNP bother to turn up. You cannot say you have independence as your number one cause, and then not bother to turn up at massive independence marches – and I do think that is a large part of the disconnect I see, between the SNP leadership and indy. If, as leader of the SNP you can turn up at various demo’s, including in LOndon, then there is not one legitimate reason (aside from political convenience) to not turn up at a major indy march – especially in the cpaital city of Scotland, and home of the parliament.

      Anyway, I think the wee ginger dug is a sane voice in a sea of chaos. Keeping his head, whilst others (it seems!!) lose theirs.

      I liked this recent article by him, and would recommend it to others on here. It has given me pause for thought.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/09/06/startled-fawns/

    80. Willie says:

      @fergus green.

      The wee ginger dug has indeed been on fire this week and his analysis that Scotland cannot sort Brexit from within the UK is inescapable.

      Playing the Westminster game trying to moderate the form of the UKs exit is not what people in Scotland voted for.

      Moreover as the WGD opined this action will come back to bite the independence movement when the soft no’s revert back to the status quo.

      And meanwhile long serving Justice Minster Kenny MacAskill writes in the Scottish Left Review to complain of an autocratic inner SNP rigging candidate selection to exclude candidates too close to Salmond or who are deemed ‘ not to have bent the knee enough’

      Hate to say it but if it wasn’t for the SNPs self imposed iron discipline the SNP would have imploded by now – as disputes about selection manipulation , policy manipulation and independence strategy increasingly become ever more at odds with members and the wider yes movement.

      No wonder the SNP is bleeding members on a daily basis .

    81. Effijy says:

      I tried to find pictures and or the people who took part in what
      Is called a counter protest on Glasgow’s streets yesterday.

      UK media has plenty of pictures of the permitted marchers
      And the Police but nothing on the Unionist Knuckle Draggers?

      In the last week I’ve seen lots of pictures of the Loch Ness Monster
      And evidence of the Abominable Snowman but nothing that might allow
      Me too look at those who were breaking the law and gauge their numbers?

      Again 100% proof of UK media working together to support all things
      Unionist and block the realities of life in a Westminster controlled Scotland.

      I’m neither Irish, Catholic or a supporter of old firm football teams
      But I do want thugs fighting on my streets locked up for a long time
      I do want to see equality for all and I demand full unfettered access to the truth.

      PS Who pays for Labour to use Facebook to in-doctorate the Scottish electorate?
      I’d say it’s from the Tory Dark Money find.

      They can see the obvious that Tories can’t win many seats up here so they
      Must stifle the SNP by hoping Labour might bounce back in their former home land.

      The Tories have the money to buy all the propaganda channels that out there
      And propaganda is now smarter and more effective than ever before.

      If by chance they need a coalition then their Brexit Party, UKIP, DUP and the parasite work with
      Any party for a few jobs Lib Dem’s are always ready and willing.

    82. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Willie

      As Kenny well knows … It was Salmond wot started it.

      And I very reluctantly concede, that we wouldn’t be where we are today if he hadn’t.

      But I wonder how tortured inside JS and MR are, for having to endure decades of the machinations of the manipulators, in order to remain near the top of the greasy pole … that had been a tree when they first climbed it.

    83. Tackety Beets says:

      Mark Russel @ 5.08 & foolow on from Footsoldier

      There is indeed a border in Switzerland BUT remember what arrives on your FB timeline may not be true ?

      Switzerland is in EFTA & Schengen area too

      Google it & you get the full map with circles showing who/what etc

      I have been a Vignette (motorway car tax) user since the 80s & a couple of years ago was stuck at Swiss border for 2 or 3 hours, not my fault but it did happen.

    84. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Willie at 9.18

      “No wonder the SNP is bleeding members on a daily basis .”

      A joke, no doubt.

      Just to remind realists the combined membership off all the other political parties in Scotland is about a quarter of the SNP membership total.

      My branch’s membership has risen significantly over the last couple of months and not one member has resigned.
      They may be screaming in impatience but they are going nowhere.

    85. Abulhaq says:

      Mac Askill laments the autocratic, neo Stalinist tendencies within the SNP. Unfortunately that tendency is not manifest in the assertive promotion of independence but in an anti Brexit fixation and a pursuit of woke agendas in gender and identity.

    86. manandboy says:

      Effijy says:

      And propaganda is now smarter and more effective than ever before.

      Judging by the mainland Unionist media, Northern Ireland only contains the DUP, and people whom Arlene Foster knows personally.

      The Unionist media campaign for NI, is to persuade the UK electorate that the ONLY political view in NI is that of the DUP – and that their needs and concerns are absolutely essential to the UK.

    87. Footsoldier says:

      BBC is going to stop those peddling fake news but see themselves as above that.

      Concealing news is even worse yet the BBC do not have a single picture of yesterday’s independence march in Perth and it is certainly news and topical.

      Unionist paper Scotland on Sunday is just as bad no picture or even a mention that I can see of thousands on the streets of Perth.

      Their slogan should be: “News We Like”.

    88. Old Pete says:

      Amber Rudd’s resignation statement shows clearly to the masses what a cowardly lying git Ruth Davidson has been.

    89. manandboy says:

      There’s only one Titanic and only one lifeboat for Scotland.

      Current SG policy is ‘SAVE THE TITANIC’.

      In the interests of unity in the Independence Movement, yeah, let’s give saving the ship a go.

    90. Mac says:

      @effijy

      You make a good point about lack of photos of the unionist mobs.

      It might make good sense to get three of four people with telephoto lenses on the Edinburgh march.

      That would be a proactive way of defending the Indy movement.. Edinburgh May well have the biggest draw. And it could include all sorts of activists.

    91. galamcennalath says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      My branch’s membership has risen significantly over the last couple of months and not one member has resigned.

      Same at ours. I don’t think anyone has actually resigned; a few fail to renew membership, which isn’t quite the same. Those joining always balance that out and the net membership continues to edge upwards.

      The SNP is in a strong position, support for YES (especially when EU and 16/17 included) is over 50%, there is a big block of pursuadables, and the Tories are setting up the perfect conditions. What’s not to be positive about?

    92. Famous15 says:

      Old Pete please expand. Sounds interesting.

    93. Effijy says:

      A Rudd-less ship, HMS Tory, heading for the rocks.

      May has had her day!

      Men, Woman and Children of Scotland must Abandon ship
      And use the life boats marked SNP and Independence.

      I’m a Scottish Entity, get me out of here!

    94. ahundredthidiot says:

      Robert Louise @9:14

      WGD does make excellent points, and for the most part I agree. The only part I would hesitate to agree with though is that the current strategy re Brexit is the ONLY route to Independence as seems to be suggested from the piece. For example, what if Brexit never happens? – or takes another 3 years?

      Many of us will have drifted off – my own deadline is 2021 – no independence, no more membership of the SNP, no more care for politics, and very likely no more staying in the UK. I suspect I am not alone – so, we need to be wary of the UK running the clock down on us.

      Say we forget Brexit for a second – sort of. What if Yes was polling (consistently) at around 55% (while we argue over Brexit) for the next 12 months – would that be a sufficient enough reason to ‘go for it’?

      My point is – Brexit is not the be all and end all of our achieving independence for Scotland – important yes and potentially decisive in our favour (as WGD outlines) – but not the only deciding factor. We don’t NEED Brexit to happen to hold Indyref2 – just enough people on our side to win it.

      And let’s not forget – many of us could be wrong and Brexit works out just absolutely fine – booming economy, massive investment in the NHS, more coppers, blah blah, and all fully championed by an English Nationalist MSM – Our movement could be dead in the water. I am not sure being short of a few lemons and tomatoes for a couple of weeks will swing all those juicy no voters to Yes.

      So, let’s not put all our eggs in the one basket – particularly one with so many holes in it.

    95. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      It is difficult to believe that the BBC and the other MSM can justify failing to report on the march in Perth yesterday.

      It is simply the case that they will not carry the story and that’s that.

      I hope the turnout at Edinburgh is large enough to burst the town making it impossible for our enemies to ignore.

      Get to the Edinburgh march if you can drag the kids and or the dog with you.

      We should and we can put on quite a show if we all turn up.

    96. ahundredthidiot says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @10:05 re SNP members

      ‘They may be screaming in impatience but they are going nowhere’

      Exactly – we’re just lulling the opposition into a false sense of security!

      Good to see you back.

    97. galamcennalath says:

      Rudd on Marr from Guardian ….

      “I support the prime minister in getting a deal and if not leaving without a deal. But I have not seen enough work into actually trying to get a deal. When earlier in the week I asked Number 10 for a summary of what the planning was actually getting a deal, I was sent a one page summary. There is not enough work into actually getting a deal, which is not what the prime minister signed up to try to do.

      Angela Merkel and the EU have said: ‘give us your proposal’. And we have not given them a proposal, where is all the work that needs to be done to try and come up with alternative arrangements to show where the landing places, all that work that needs to go behind it. And instead, we’re just and we are going to get a deal. But there’s very little evidence of it.

      There is no evidence of the deal. There is no formal negotiation taking place. There are just a lot of conversations. David Frost has been doing his best and going out there, I understand twice a week. But I think we should be doing so much more to get the deal. “

      We know Johnson is an evil conniving barstad, but this is a monumental lie even by his standards. He sppears to be pushing … “do a deal, negotiations making progress” …. f’ck all is being done. The EU say nothing if happening. He’s running the clock down. His plan is quite obviously to engineer a crash out Brexit on Hallowe’en.

      And yet, I am certain millions of people don’t actually see what he is doing courtesy of perfidious and/or incompetent media.

    98. Daisy Walker says:

      Craig Murray’s petition to have international observers at an Indyref2 is receiving criticism from Mhairi Hunter SNP.

      Be nice if Senior SNP members come out in support of the petition, given how many times the WM parties / Election Commission have been found to be ‘at it’ in a manner of speaking.

    99. Col.Blimp IV says:

      @Mac

      @effijy

      Social media is alien to me but if it works the way I think it does.

      Someone could compose a blurb about the bias of the MSM and their sins of omission, with photos of said processions attached and release it into twiterface land, with the suggestion that the recipients forward it to all of their “friends”.

      A sort of paperless chain letter …people like Rev Stu must have mountains of suitable addresses to kick it off with.

      It could give thousands of passive independence supporters a taste of doing something for the cause.

      It might also make more people aware of up-coming marches and encourage them to participate.

      No doubt someone will tell me, that stuff like this has been going on for years but I don’t think turbo-charging it would be a bad thing.

    100. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ooops!

      I forgot that I am one of those Ubiquitous Unionist Trolls.

      Does anyone know how I can redact that last comment?

    101. Lenny Hartley says:

      DMH, good to see you back, however got to say I agree with Twathater @ 0305 am.

    102. Capella says:

      @ Daisy Walker – Mhairi Hunter is a very dubious character IMO – supports the woke faction and refers to the ordinary membership as “trash”.
      Do you have a link for her criticism of Craig Murray’s petition? It’s difficult to imagine on what grounds anyone claiming to support independence could possibly object. Unionists, yes – independence supporters, no.
      Is MH a unionist? Would certainly explain a lot.

    103. SilverDarling says:

      @Col.Blimp IV

      Don’t tell them your name, Pike!

    104. cherson says:

      One obvious problem with the question with the three options is that you have skewed the question by offering just one remain option and two leave options. Even if people answer randomly you would expect the two leave options to have the majority of the votes by 2 to 1. In a multi-option question it would be normal and good practice to offer a similar number of options on either side. That may not be straightforward but failure to do that would skew the result which is what I suspect is happening here.

    105. Marcia says:

      I had a snigger this morning to read that the Labour MP for Bassetlaw, John Mann, resigned his Westminster seat to take up a position offered by the Tories, no doubt for him voting all the time for Brexit. He thought it would create a lot of publicity with his anti-Corbyn jibes. Then along comes Amber Rudd who put him into the shadows, where he belongs.

    106. Marcia says:

      Capella

      Mhairi is no unionist plant, she just seems things differently. I don’t always agree with her. She is the daughter of the late Allison Hunter.

      https://www.snp.org/mhairi-hunter-my-mum-auntie-allison-helped-make-the-snp-a-driving-force-in-scottish-politics/

    107. Sinky says:

      Apart from not covering the AUOB march in Perth BBC news and not covering the far right Brit Nat Boris supporters fighting with the police in London, there is no Scottish politics programme in one of the momentous weeks in order to let Tories escape scrutiny

    108. Capella says:

      @ Nana 11.17- thx for the link – it’s possible that MH is stupid rather than unionist, or both – on reading her list of “reasons” why we should all trust the electoral process in UK.
      She could have asked Craig Murray to explain his fears about election cheating before dismissing them out of hand. But that’s not the way of the Hunter.

    109. hackalumpoff says:

      See updated Nana’s links here:
      https://indyref2.space/nanas-links-2/

    110. Capella says:

      Mhairi Hunter rubbishes the idea that companies like IDOX – Peter Lilly’s company – could affect elections or referendums in Scotland. She calls this a conspiracy theory.

      She clearly has no idea of how easy it is to rig electronic systems. But IDOX itself publishes bragging articles on how much control it has on the electoral register at Local authority level – WHICH IS WHERE THE CONTROL LIES.

      https://www.idoxgroup.com/archive/idox-delivers-local-elections-success-across-scotland/

    111. Nana says:

      @Capella, she certainly knows how to get people’s backs up.

      a link I forgot to add to the links page

      An exclusive interview with the Scottish First Minister on the second independence referendum and why Scotland won’t be another Catalonia, the doomed future of the United Kingdom, the risks of No Deal, the euro currency (“better not”), the ambiguity of Jeremy Corbyn and why Boris Johnson is the British Trump

      https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2019/09/06/news/nicola_sturgeon_brexit_or_not_scotland_will_be_independent_and_we_ll_join_eu_-235329272/

    112. Sharny Dubs says:

      Freedom of speech is one of the pillars of democracy, without that we have nothing.

      Saying politicians are being “economical with the truth” could be seen as a duty if that is what you believe.

      We should oppose ideological dogma while being careful we do not to become “infected” ourselves.

      Rock on Stu

    113. Jack Murphy says:

      Yesterday’s March and Rally in Perth.
      All Under One Banner [AUOB]
      Independence Livestreamers were there.

      VIDEO.Here are the speeches to the crowd from
      1) John Swinney MSP
      AND
      2) Pete Wishart MP

      https://tinyurl.com/yyt6ek7o

    114. Capella says:

      Thx Nana – will read with interest to Nicola’s interview. I noted she got an EU award for ethical politics. She’s certainly working hard to keep our place in Europe.

      BTW I do find it easier to keep up with your links when they are dropped into the main thread. So please do keep it up. I know you had a lot of difficulty posting several links at once but the drip drip effect is also good!

    115. Normski says:

      As far as the opposition parties having a plan, it probably doesn’t matter that much what it is – because events will overtake it, no matter what.

    116. Tatu3 says:

      M Hunter says “Introducing Voter ID requirements would depress the Yes vote” further down the thread.
      Why would it?

    117. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Capella at 11.37

      You could ask Mhairi Hunter to explain how Argyll and Bute (and four other Scottish constituencies)recorded over 96% take-up on the postal ballot at the referendum. This figure is not contested and this figure is impossible. Andy Anderson’s Dunoon report lays this out exactly and precisely.

      It has now been established to my satisfaction that the Govan “riot” last week didn’t happen. At no point did the band and march meet the protesters,absolutely no physiscal contact was made and some bins were put on fire and there was lots of police there.

      Yesterday’s two marches were peaceful and entirely legal and were subjected to attempted attack by Black hooded OO yobs.
      The media are distorting these events into what they were not.
      This is a determined attempt by our opponents to falsley manufacture a sectarian division.

      What if they next attack an independence march? Will we, the peaceful marchers, be made to share the blame?

      Time for a more robust and accurate response, laying the blame exactly where it should be – on the unionist yobs working or the UK.

    118. Sarah says:

      @ Nana: thanks for the “Mhairi Hunter against international observers” link.

      I was totally unconvinced by her attitude. I certainly want international observers, not because I don’t trust the SNP government and local authority workers but because it is foolish to rely on trust/faith alone.

      IDOX now run election counts – local authorities do not deal with election counts in-house.

      I think no-one should see postal votes in advance at all – they should be opened after 10.00 p.m. along with the boxes.

      I also think postal votes should be delivered to people on the day of the vote only so the voters hear/see the same information as personal voters. It doesn’t matter if we have to wait one or two days for the result – loads of other countries do. Democratic systems should not be arranged for the convenience of media and politicians.

    119. Cubby says:

      Sharny Dubs@11.47am

      Spot on comment.

      It is of course also freedom of speech to question an opinion that you believe has not been made to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

    120. Capella says:

      @ Dave McEwan Hill – in her tweets MH says she is not going to engage with this conspiracy nonsense thus reserving the right to dismiss all objective evidence in favour of her blinkered opinions. Does the same with the trans issue. Science is bunk, evidence is illusion, in the woke world the trash are just a nuisance.

      So I think we will have to rely on the OSCE who also monitor press bias and observation of the purdah period as well as voting systems including postal ballots. The situation in Argyll certainly demands some explanation.

      For those who haven’t yet signed Craig Murray’s petition, here’ the link to his article with the link to the petition.:
      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/09/petition-for-official-international-observers-for-next-scottish-independence-referendum/

    121. Doug says:

      According to latest polls the more extreme Johnson and his xenophobic cronies get the more support they receive from voters in England.

      This rise in English nationalism is obvious for [nearly] all to see in Scotland. English nationalism will bring about the end of the so-called united kingdom.

    122. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Marcia

      “the late Allison Hunter.”

      No wonder she was late … did you ever see that old banger she used to drive to bi-elections all over the country?

      There must be a whole lot of dead people who’s contribution to the cause of independence will be unknown to the generations who will come to benefit from the eventual fruits of their efforts.

      So I propose we turn the pavements from the Castle leading to Holyrood into a Hollywood Boulevard style promenade in their honour.

      And nominate Harry Galataly for his contribution to bi-elections, Anthony JC Kerr for generating more column inches of newsprint than the rest of the movement combined and what was the name of that very tall fellow with the bowler hat who used to hang around with a placard demanding a Scottish Assembly?

    123. Colin Alexander says:

      Peter A Bell writes regarding Indyref2 and s30: “To summarise; Nicola Sturgeon wants us to do something she insists we have to do despite the fact that the sovereignty she claims means that we absolutely do not have to do it, in the hope that doing this thing will have an effect that it never did before”.

      I can summarise that even more concisely:

      The FM’s position on an s30 and indyref2 is mince.

    124. starlaw says:

      Who threw the firework that injured the policeman in Glasgow yesterday, I’m sure had it came from the official marchers it would have all over the MSM like a rash so its a pretty safe bet that it came from the other side, from those who wish to fight for our freedom and laws, great way to go about it.

    125. frogesque says:

      Whatever the BBC say, or more importantly don’t say, about the marches I’ve managed every one this year. There was a different atmosphere about the Perth rally yesterday.

      Previously they have all been great but somehow defensive. Yesterday we were out in numbers and so were the folk out watching us pass by, cheering us on. It was positive and electrifying. The mood is different and you get the feeling that the feather hovering over the scales is about to land.

      Enough metaphors, our stand (YES Stones) looked bonny with everyone’s work on display before being taken on separate journeys to be planted elsewhere. Name drop, John Swinney, Deputy FM, came round for a chat. They are aware of the wider YES movement and are engaging with others outside of the SNP.

      So fuck the BBC, Facebook is awash with pics and stories. It was bloody fantastic.

    126. vlad (not that one) says:

      Capella @ 11:37
      Mhairi Hunter rubbishes the idea that companies like IDOX – Peter Lilly’s company – could affect elections or referendums in Scotland.
      It’s frightening to think that IDOX is where postal votes might be processed. (By the way, it is Lilley.)

    127. Capella says:

      @ vlad – apos Lilley it is 🙂 and I remember him from the Tory Party conference where he recited “I’ve got a little list… they never will be missed” referring to single parents claiming benefits. Just the sort of guy we want overseeing the electoral register and postal votes.

    128. Capella says:

      Should have added – forget who said it, maybe Stalin:

      It’s not who votes that counts, it’s who counts the votes

    129. Republicofscotland says:

      Even though I want Scotland to remain in the EU and become independent. The democratic will (conned, and lied to) of the people was to leave the EU.

      Should we not first and foremost be seeking Scottish independence whilst letting the rUK decide its own fate on Brexit.

    130. Graf Midgehunter says:

      Mark Russel says: (and others)

      “We don’t need border controls or custom checks – Switzerland doesn’t have them. We just need agreement. Where’s there’s a will….and the will of the English people is very much in favour of the above.

      What’s the problem?”
      —————————

      This is breiteer bollox, desperate for any argument to weasel out of the GFA.

      Switzerland has a HARD border with some slightly relaxed regulations to enable the normal, law abiding Joe public to cross without to much dificulty. E.g. not having to show your passport.

      There are the main crossover points which are open 24Hrs, however some of the smaller border points are ONLY open during “office hours”, come at the wrong time and the border is closed…! 🙁

      For trade/business the Swiss border is real and without the required documents you don’t get through. FULL STOP.

      Here’s a reasonable article from the Financial Times with a nice picture of “no checks”…

      https://www.ft.com/content/2d30482c-da7e-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482

      Or get it from the Swiss:

      https://www.ch.ch/en/swiss-customs/

    131. Tam the Bam. says:

      Frogesque @ 1-07pm

      Not so much ‘a feather hovering over the scales’.

      More a Monty Python ONE (1) TON weight!

      Cheers buddy….you made my Sunday.

    132. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Col.Blimp IV at 12.56

      Bowler hat? That might have been Iain Hossack.

      A great idea. We should start collecting the names now. I’m away to make my list.

    133. Tam the Bam. says:

      Hackalumpoff @ 1-03pm

      Do you believe Willie McCrae was murdered?

    134. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the ‘British sense of fair play’ is so important then we should expect to see the back of Cummings any minute then, eh?

      http://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/07/opinion/sunday/dominic-cummings-brexit.html

    135. hackalumpoff says:

      Tam the Bam. says: 8 September, 2019 at 2:32 pm

      Can you tell me the price of fish please?

    136. Tam the Bam. says:

      hackalumpoff @ 2-49pm

      Well according to our PM (Boris the Spider)when he was in EBEREDEEN (FIT LIKE)… fish were retailing @ 50 smackeroonies per whack!

      GOOD COD!!!!

    137. Col.Blimp IV says:

      hackalumpoff

      I suspect he was making reference to Ms Hunters fondness using the “Conspiracy Theorist” defense, a common tactic shared by defenders of the status quo everywhere, when people claim foul play.

      Few are comfortable to be lumped in with flat-earth proclaimers, lizard diviners and the like, thus reducing the number of voices that join in the chorus.

    138. Tam the Bam. says:

      Col Blimp IV @ 3-25pm.

      You precis’d my intentions precisely sir.

      I salute you Col.

    139. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Tam the Bam.

      Do you think the price will go up if we get a “No Deal Brexit”?

      I mean at 50 smackeroonies per whack, I could fill my freezer … and if the Remainiacs have calibrated their crystal balls right, 50 smakeroonies will be barely enough to buy a tin of sardines, once the border posts go up.

    140. Tam the Bam. says:

      Col Blimp

      I concur with your post….apart from your insistence of adhering to the Americanisation of the English language.

      *defense* … *defence*

      I rest my case.

    141. hackalumpoff says:

      Awa and dinna talk fish, ya pair o haddies.

    142. Tam the Bam. says:

      Col Blimp @ 3-44pm

      Will the price of fish go up?….wha kens?
      I paid £7-50 for a fish supper in Glasgow last night (and yes Stuart…it was in Byres Road…bla bla bla)

      p.s. This REMANIAC is still waiting to have his crystal balls re-calibrated!)…lol

    143. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Back to the Holyrood Boulevard project at 12.56 and 2:17

      All this talk of fish has put me in mind of Hamish McQueen … Who was handing out lapel stickers that said – SCOTLAND’S FISH is SCOTLAND’S FISH! – at some SNP rally or other back in the day.

      Tam the Bam

      I’m afraid I fell victim to an American Imperialist Spellchecker.

    144. Tam the Bam. says:

      Col Blimp @ 4-07pm

      ” Hollyrood Boulevard”…..you’ve cracked it Col.
      We were racking oor brains for a suitable name for oor band….SORTED!!!

      Forever indebted my good man

      p.s. yer fish supper is in the post (might need tae bung in the microwave fer 30 secs. when ye get it mind!)

    145. JMD says:

      Capella 11.13

      So Mhairi Hunter (of the SNP if you can believe it) says that it’s a bad idea to have international observers monitoring counts etc at any future indyref2? She’s the worthless sack of shit who described Yes supporters as trash, and for that should have been unceremoniously booted out of the party immediately but of course wasn’t. A closet britnat if there ever was one.

      A little point that shouldn’t be overlooked or forgotten, in 2014 it turned out that the only ones with “something up their sleeve” was BT with the vow. That I think was the panicked response to polls swinging definitely if not dramatically towards Yes. The point that shouldn’t be forgotten or overlooked is that that potential majority for Yes came about before anyone had ever heard of brexit.

      There are plenty of other compelling reasons apart from brexit – too numerous to list – as to why Scotland needs to get out of the uk.

    146. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Tam the Bam.

      Maybe you can re-work this oldie…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_QkUVZGPc

    147. Camz says:

      So basically they want their house to burn down, despite the Fire Brigade coming to put it out.

      Strange people, voters.

    148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi McDuff at 10:02 pm.

      You asked,
      “DMH
      So you are privy to the SNP`s inner sanctum, they call you up and keep you in the loop about their supposed plan b`s and c`s, you alone know their strategy Gosh.”

      Strategy? Here’s a wee quote for you – an extract from an email I received today.

      “Dear friend and supporter,

      The next few weeks will be some of the most important in Scotland’s journey to independence.

      Whilst Johnson and his Brexiters attempt to ram through a deeply damaging No Deal Brexit, I and my colleagues will do everything in our power to stop them. If you are interested more on my thoughts, please have a read of my latest e-newsletter here.

      As Scotland is set to be dragged out of the EU against its will, support for independence continues to rise. Poll after poll is showing that Scots are fast changing from No to Yes.

      However, make no mistake: despite the polling, we can never be complacent. A General Election will be called any day now, and it is vital now more than ever that the Scottish people send a loud and clear message to Johnson and Corbyn, that we, the people of Scotland, must have the right to determine our own future.

      This is your opportunity to join us on the election campaign trail in our pursuit of independence. You can be key to helping to make that difference.
      WE ARE NOW ON AN ELECTION FOOTING.

      Yours for an independent Scotland,

      Chris Law MP
      Dundee West”

    149. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Ap0logies.
      For the first time in yonks, I posted that previous comment on the wrong tab.

      SHAZBOT! Dinnae read it above – read it in
      https://wingsoverscotland.com/narrow-windows/comment-page-1/#comment-2485985

    150. Gary says:

      All sides are breaking rules, sorry – conventions! All are disingenuous and all are lying.

      100% of the public are sick of it and want it done. We have the extremist on both ends who either want to leave and NEVER have a deal and (in the case of DUP) have a hard border with barbed wire with Ireland. At the other extreme they simply want to overturn a referendum result they didn’t like.

      Democracy has lost and the public are being ignored, again…

    151. Vince Harvie says:

      Your pro-Brexit leanings are looking increasingly loony.

      First of all, the notion that stopping Brexit is at best “quasi-democratic”: the use of parliamentary votes to determine course of action is the function of parliament! Are only referenda fully democratic? Is the suspension of parliament, to try and prevent it from exercising it’s function, fully democratic? At this point, the government pursuit of no-deal Brexit is both illegal and anti-democratic.

      Secondly, with regards to a general election: if it’s acceptable to keep having these whenever the government runs into parliamentary opposition then why can’t we have another referendum on EU membership? The 2015 parliament was meant to run until 2020, and we’re looking at a second general election before then. If the people can be continually asked to re-assess the government, why can’t they be asked to re-assess the referendum decision?

      Thirdly, you’ve presented your own spin on that opinion poll – as all politicians do. An equally valid spin would be that voters who preferred leaving with a deal were thinking of Theresa May’s deal – which, for all intents and purposes, keeps us within the EU framework with the same rights protections and trade rules. Thus it can be interpreted as a pro-EU response – “If we must have Brexit, let it be with the deal”. And the overall response of the first question is clear – a slim majority for Remain.

    152. ross says:

      it’s now apparent that brexit might actually be stopped rather than delayed. long term it’s better for Scotland for them in the EU.

    153. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Your pro-Brexit leanings are looking increasingly loony.”

      I am in no sense whatsoever “pro-Brexit”, you fucking nutter.

    154. Vince Harvie says:

      You’ve previously described attempts at preventing a hard-Brexit as a coup. I am free to interpret that how I wish, and I intrepret that as a pro-Brexit leaning. And you are increasingly loony. You should go outside sometimes, get some fresh air.

    155. gullaneno4 says:

      My ‘mainly English/white middle aged bald male’ golf forum has gone into melt down the afternoon.

    156. Donald Marr says:

      This is all very well Stuart, but we have already had our vote and polling people after the event really won’t do, for one thing, it isn’t really a vote.
      I can’t for the life of me understand this EU obsession.
      Or the obsession with any union come to that.
      They only surrender power.
      Usually to those most desirous of it.



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