Don’t knows and don’t cares
The Daily Record’s politics lead story today is a slightly underwhelming poll that shows 41% of Scots believe the Tories are carrying out a power grab against the Scottish Parliament, against 34% who think they aren’t (and 25% who have no idea).
Which seems a good time to round up the last results of our own most recent poll, and some slightly disturbing revelations about the Scottish public’s grasp of devolution.
Firstly, while the public may be deeply split on whether there’s a power grab going on or not, there’s one thing they’re considerably more certain about – that Westminster isn’t treating Holyrood with respect over it.
By a margin of more than 3:2, poll respondents thought the UK government was NOT treating its Scottish counterpart with respect to the allocation of powers. (Excluding Tory voters, the party that would still rather devolution had never happened at all, just 19% answered Yes versus 63% saying No.)
And they were almost as clear about who was most to blame for the mess.
(Predictably responses divided down party lines, with SNP and Tory voters polarising at the extremes, Labour ones tending to back the Scottish Government and Lib Dems being more or less down the middle.)
But it’s not surprising voters are confused, because almost 20 years into devolution the electorate still has remarkably little idea about what’s devolved and what isn’t.
Some of this can probably be attributed to a series of incredibly dishonest campaign messages from Scottish Labour, pledging to do things they actively fought to keep OUT of Holyrood’s hands, like employment law. (Although at least only one in five are swallowing their line on nationalising the railways.)
But in truth the public has never really kept tabs on what is and isn’t devolved, which is probably why Unionists keep getting away with promising to extend devolution as a sop to dissuade people from independence. Just over a quarter – 28% – correctly identified the fact that NONE of the powers in our question are in fact devolved.
But when we revealed it to them, large numbers WANTED them devolved.
And those figures become striking if you exclude Tory voters.
Minimum wage: 66%
Employment law: 67%
Nationalisation: 47%
VAT: 46%
Excise duties: 59%
Corporation tax: 54%
Immigration: 57%
None: 12%
Now, of course, you can’t just exclude the wishes of a substantial percentage of the electorate. But those numbers illustrate the observation we made a few days ago: that on almost everything but independence, Scotland’s politics are still pretty much the Tories versus everyone else.
More than half of Tory respondents didn’t want ANY of the listed powers devolved, and just 15% of them backed devolving immigration, compared to 41% of Labour voters, 37% of Lib Dems and 72% of SNP supporters.
(As an aside, it was quite interesting to note that only a third of Scottish Labour voters wanted to repatriate the power of nationalisation – two thirds of supposedly socialist voters would rather the railways were privately owned by foreign companies, or foreign state-owned firms, than by the people of Scotland, which surprised us a bit.)
Both the Record’s poll and our own, then, show that while Scots have a reasonable understanding of how devolution works in the abstract, the details are of little interest to them, which is probably why the power grab has had no discernible impact on support for independence even though lots of people are notionally unhappy about it.
For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game.
Apparently, in 2014 most Scots thought the NHS was a UK wide institution. And above we see most folks don’t really have a scoobie about what is devolved and reserved.
We can justifiably blame BritNat politicians for muddying the water and their obedient media for assisting them. Though I have often felt Labour politicians in particular often haven’t a firm grasp themselves of what’s what.
The Scottish parliament and government really should put more effort into educating voters. When the ‘executive’ was rightly renamed Government, a few other devolved elements should have been rebranded over the following few years. For instance NHS (Scotland) should have become Health Scotland well before IndyRef1. It is a Scottish entity being protected and run well here in Scotland by the Scottish Government – everyone needs to be clear on that! Any threat to it comes from WM and their far right policies.
The SG/SP needs to take responsibility and credit for the work it does. WM needs to take responsibility and blame for the chaos and suffering it causes! The smoke and mirrors of BritNats is, of course, to avoid this.
Definately the fault of the Scottish media. How difficult would it be for them to publish a list every so often of what is, or isn’t, devolved? Although, I suspect this is deliberate as it allows SLab to get away with their constant bullshit
Only 72% of SNP supporters? Are you sure they really were SNP supporters? Bonkers.
For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game.
totally agree with this
Some serious education is required. Last week at the pensioners club I brought up the topic of the NHS at it was the 70th Anniversary of the Scottish Health Service to give it’s original name. Of the 6 people around the table only one knew that the Scottish NHS was independent of the NHS in England – me.
Some thoughts.
I think there may be a latent desire for Independence in those who mistakenly believe that the Scottish Government has greater powers than it actually has…it’s an unconscious assumption. Perhaps it gives a clue to how to bring soft No’s into the Yes fold.
I recall an American journalist, several years prior to the 2014 vote, writing a piece that stated that Scottish voters were conservative (with a small “c”), i.e. and to use a definition – “holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics”.
As for Brexit. I think there needs to be a period of very visible chaos, e.g. food shortages, social instability, economic pain; before more Scottish voters wake up to the positives that Independence brings.
To those who disagree with this view, I believe these poll results display the lack of understanding with the electorate. If they can’t get devolution, then they will not understand the impending disaster that Brexit is bringing and therefore will not vote for or against an evidenced based future that hasn’t happened yet.
The MSM will be pumping out propaganda by the bucket load to obscure the negative outcomes of Brexit. No amount of lecturing, persuading and leafleting is going to turn soft No’s onto independence until they feel it in their pockets and they can visibly see the chaos unfold (which the MSM will not be able to hide).
And if they haven’t got a clue about exactly what powers the SG does and does not have the question is – bearing in mind that we know that the bbc/stv/c4/c5 and 99% of the press are trying to keep it that way so that they can continue to blame the SG for things that the SG has no power over – why is it that the public is still largely ignorant about it?
I think that would be because the SNP/SG and Yes movement have done virtually nothing to inform the general public about exactly what powers the SG does and does not have.
One million updated WBBII’s anyone?
As said above, the media are largely responsible for this ignorance of what is and isn’t devolved.
I remember (vaguely) during GE, BBC interviewer was asking people questions about devolved issues. Devolved issues during a GE!! Whit? And when, back in the press pit, an SNP spokesperson challenged her on it, was told by the BBC interviewer, “It’s what people are interested in.”
“Ah’m puir gonnae vote Layburr in the generalection so ah umm cos that BBC wummin said they’ll fix the schools that urr fawin’ doon.”
“Aye – me annaw.”
I mean – FFS!!
This is by design!
If Westminster can keep the Scottish electorate ignorant to the extent of devolution then they can mislead and deflect as needed….and the BBC and Unionist rags will be fully engaged in maintaining that confusion with useful idiots like Leonard providing the ammunition…given that he hasn’t a clue regarding devolved powers they are not having to work very hard to gain that information.
That Labour vote being mostly against nationalisation. It points to the astonishing possibility that most of their voters, young and old, are fully submerged in – and aware of – the reality of their chosen party being merely an alternatively-coloured version of the Tories; or, that the poll needs to be taken again, because young Labour voters are usually a bunch of over-credulous deluded fu…oh, hang on, it’s because nationalisation looks a bit like national socialism, isn’t it.
I know Nicola wants us to reach out to these cretins but it just merely confirms my view that a fair percentage of Scots are politically ignorant and that as you say can solely be attributed to blindly accepting what the MSM tells them. It reinforces the need to re-educate them … I distributed a lot of WB Books the last time and we need to re-run that exercise again.
I think that now might be a good time to inundate the electorate with leaflets identifying what IS and what is NOT devolved to Holyrood.
With the level of ignorance indicated by these figures regarding people’s knowledge of devolved powers I think as the Britnat media will never educate the people then we must rely on alternative means.
Ignorance and apathy combined with stupidity and tribalism then you’ve got sectarianism and belligerence combined with dogma and anger
What’s the answer? Yaay! Brexit!
The Tory answer to making the world worse (but better for them)
O/T? Essenpee Baad.
Jackie Baillie MSP, Scottish Labour’s economy spokeswoman, said it was “shameful” that under the SNP and the Tories women were earning less than men over the course of their careers.;
link to archive.is
FFS!
Great post Rev.
Seemingly the electorate want the powers of independence, but without it being called independence.
Seemingly.
As you say most people don’t keep tabs on what is or is not devolved. They won’t go to a government site and inform themselves. They rely on their political representation and their go to media. They’re not political anoraks, just folk looking for a quick, straight forward, info blast when they need it. The important bit is the information base. How they’ve been informed?
What happens when/if they ever find out they’ve been poorly informed/misled by the pro Westminster parties and their media should prove … colourful. Though I’d rather it was sooner rather than later. 😎
Put a very large, clearly-marked link box where the facebook one is now, that brings folk to a page outlining exactly what is and isn’t devolved. Move the facebook one down and get rid of either ask.fm or rss. Just for the moment, at least, as it’s pretty important and shouldn’t be tucked away in ‘References’, for example.
Don’t forget those 16 – 17 year olds. They are less inclined to follow traditional [British nationalist] media outlets.
[Ireland remains crucial].
This is a depressing set of results on several counts:
– if someone doesn’t know what is/isn’t devolved then they can’t allocate blame/praise appropriately to the Holyrood and Westminster parliaments, and their respective parties of government – this is on top of any adverse influence of the corporate media and the BBC. If one’s priority is to maintain the Union and get the SNP out of government, this is a very satisfactory state of voter ignorance.
– only on employment law and on setting the minimum wage do a majority want Holyrood to have the powers devolved – and only by a very small majority at that. Hardly a sign of a population keen on self determination in future! Rather it indicates that many still want decisions taken for them based on a majority in Westminster responding to what England wants. (Do these results not run counter to other polling evidence on higher levels of trust in Holyrood relative to that in Westminster?)
– and why not 100% of SNP voters wanting more powers for Holyrood?
Clutching at strays – could it be more nuanced, countering my ‘depression’? Namely that some people (perhaps some SNP supporters) see that more, but still partial, devolution of powers is no longer a sufficient solution i.e. they’ve had enough of gradualism?. If not this, and I strongly suspect not, then we really have an uphill struggle unless a ‘Brexit effect’ kicks in much more significantly and soon.
Regardless of this, there is a fundamental need to ‘educate’ on where power actually lies, not only to prepare for an Indyref2 but also to ensure a properly informed Scottish electorate before voting in the next Westminster and next Holyrood elections if these are necessary before an Indyref..
Devolution has turned into a honey trap.
Blame the SNP for having less pocket money to spend on Education / Health and Transport.
The SNP are still winning outright victory and support. Inspite of these reports and the MSM lined up against. They must be taking the right actions. People obviously want more powers devolved. Independence support is increasing. Brexit is a disaster. A threat to society. The Tory unionist appalling shambles.
Re surprise that SNP voters not wanting more powers for Hollyrood, I know A SNP member that voted No in 2014 and will do the same in Indyref2 . Just likes the way they run Holyrood, and wont even think about Indy.
I would be surprised if anyone outside Wings readership could tell you exactly what is devolved and what is retained,
and that includes most politicians and all so called political hacks,
just go and ask a family member or friend or someone at the bus stop to name three things that are devolved and i bet 99% couldn`t get three correct answers,
BBC is/was supposed to educate,entertain and inform,
instead it dumbs down everything to keep the masses from thinking, especially britnat Gary Robertson.
StewartB
If there’s a “fundamental need to educate” (which of course there is, urgently) does it ever occur to anyone to ask why the SNP/SG and Yes movement isn’t doing any? And don’t just say it’s because the media won’t give them a fair shake, of course they won’t but there are ways of effectively bypassing the msm. (one million updated WBBII’s anyone?)
Sick of hearing hopium addicts saying things like “wait till brexit hits” or “and we haven’t even started campaigning yet”
Brexit will be extensively sugar coated by the media till it’s too late and the large section of the public who have porridge for brains will lap it up. After all, no one’s bothering to tell them any different.
The No campaign doesn’t need “a date” to start campaigning, so why should the Yes campaign? It’s often said that it’s remarkable how support for indy holds up despite relentless anti-Scottish propaganda, it’s also quite remarkable how the british nationalists have managed to hold their line. Well actually it isn’t particularly remarkable at all when you consider that they’ve been allowed to have the information field to themselves.
A view from our James Kelly:
link to scotgoespop.blogspot.com
Not depressing. Surprisingly good if so many are deemed less that well-informed about devolution.
Women were earning less under Labour. Less nursery provision. Less social care. Introduced loans and higher uni fees. Held back people from uni – no funding. Means testing. Preventing people going to uni. PPI waste.
Labour Illegal wars killing, maiming people and causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW. Empoverishing people. Higher unemployment. ‘Bedroom tax’. Sanctioning and starving people. Targeting women and one parent families. Brexit. Deporting people and detaining migrants and refugees for years. The useless Labour unionists in collusion with the Tories. Trident, Hinkley Point and HS2 a total waste of money.
We seem to always be waiting for some future “game-changer” or other that’ll finally ‘open’ the nation’s eyes to the absurdity of our political position. Personally, I doubt whether Brexit, of itself, will be that “game-changer”.
O/T but pertinent, I believe:I was intrigued recently by a conversation I had with a self-described ‘apolitical’ acquaintance of mine. After giving me the typical: ‘I don’t like Sturgeon or the S.N.P.’ line, I asked him: ‘Why not?’ Well, he said:[The S.N.P. try to make Scotland out to be like something that it isn’t.]. I can only assume he meant that our Nationalist message and values bear little resemblance to his daily experience as a young, working-class male living in North Lanarkshire. He didn’t vote in the referendum, either. Will Brexit miraculously open my acquaintance’s eyes? I seriously doubt it.
We seem to always be waiting for some future “game-changer” or other that’ll finally ‘open’ the nation’s eyes to the absurdity of our political position. Personally, I doubt whether Brexit, of itself, will be that “game-changer”.
O/T but pertinent, I believe: I was intrigued recently by a conversation I had with a self-described ‘apolitical’ acquaintance of mine. After giving me the typical: ‘I don’t like Sturgeon or the S.N.P.’ line, I asked him: ‘Why not?’ Well, he said:[The S.N.P. try to make Scotland out to be like something that it isn’t.]. I can only assume he meant that our Nationalist message and values bear little resemblance to his daily experience as a young, working-class male living in North Lanarkshire. He didn’t vote in the referendum, either. Will Brexit miraculously open my acquaintance’s eyes? I seriously doubt it.
@ Smallaxe, nice work kid! Jackie Baillie fronting a claim for equal pay for women when Slab’s Glasgow City Council spent hunners of thoosands in court fees to prevent exactly that!
Lenny Hartley says:
16 July, 2018 at 2:25 pm
Re surprise that SNP voters not wanting more powers for Hollyrood, I know A SNP member that voted No in 2014 and will do the same in Indyref2 . Just likes the way they run Holyrood, and wont even think about Indy
Apparently a North Ayrshire Councillor voted No in the 2014 referendum. She is no longer a SNP councillor.
Power Grab or dark money the MSM has been almost silent.
The fact that a TV programme use tweets which are not from real people – main front page story.
It’s pretty obvious that fakery happens all the time on TV, does anybody believe that relevant subject tweets just pop up in programmes, or that the Question Time questions are not just picked because that’s what the production want on the programme.
I remember working on a schools quiz show in the 80’s were the producer wanted a certain school to win and he made sure they did.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Don’t knows and don’t cares The Daily Record’s politics lead story today is a slightly underwhelming poll that […]
Labour. The McCrone Report taking the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland and trying to keep it sercret. The ‘winter of discontent’, three day weeks and candles. The dead not getting buried and rubbish piled on the streets. The Trade Union leaders financing the illegal wars and Trident. Killing and maiming millions. £Trns of debt.
An awful lot of folk , thanks to the headlines of the gutter press (and that would be ALL MSM Broadsheets, news broadcasts etc) have absolutely zero idea of what is being formulated right under their noses.
WE have to talk and talk and talk. Wherever we are and to everyone.
Folk believe folk.
I’m going to get some more leaflets done at instantprint.co.uk The link below (hope it works) is an excellent leaflet made up by Colin Dunn. You can find many more on his superb site indyposterboy.scot I know Stuart is on the case and we can expect another WBB in due course however in the meantime I think it us up to us, the indy grassroots, to do our bit. If a few folk can club together and put in a tenner, then 1000s of these leaflets can start going through doors. Be sure to do another one on the reverse. I think I might go for a Scotland/Norway comparison.
link to twitter.com
Sorry for Off Topic so early on Thread but this 3 minute video from 21 year old Blair is heartrending.
I’ll leave cheerful Blair to speak for himself about a homophobic attack on him.
A brave cheerful man despite what happened.
BBC Scotland video and report:
link to tinyurl.com
‘Take Scottish water back into public ‘ands’ said Ricky Leonard when he first landed his lucrative job as UK Labour branch spokesperson. Now, either he had no idea that Scottish water is NOT privatised, or he was very keen for the people of Scotland to be lied to about it, in the Scottish parliament. If he didn’t know, he shouldn’t be in the job!
It’s very convenient for the Britnat parties to continue to confuse and con the people of Scotland about devolved matters, also EU citizens who had the vote in 2014, and other foreign nationals who might not know that immigration is a reserved power to Westminster and therefore Scotland can do nothing if the UKGov decide to deport them.
I reallt want to see a good clear leaflet posted through every door in Scotland outlining what is devolved and what is reserved. I suspect it would be very costly to do though. Also would like SNP MPs and MSP’s to always point out in the media what it is they have the power to do or not, it’s always relevant.
I had friends up from NE England recently, on the subject of immigration they were quick to slate the SNP who they do not like at all, for not doing more in that area for our economy etc. They could hardly believe it when I told them immigration is reserved to WM! Avid Guardian readers. It was convenient for them to slate the SNP, by not knowing. Same in Scotland.
So, it’s where the SNP have a job to do, make sure people in Scotland are totally informed about what is devolved,and which powers the UKGov have over Scotland and the ones they are determined to hold onto, it’s crucial.
Good to see this article today, thanks! Have shared.
That people do not understand devolution comes with very little surprise to me. I am sure there are
people here who remember Strathclyde, Lothian Region etc, and the workings of Regional and District Councils, also put in place by the Labour Party.
If it is convoluted you can be sure they did it.
If we ever manage to get Independence the first thing we need to do is simplify all the systems. We need to have classes from primary school onwards to educate our future citizens and heaven forfend, we need programmes to educate those beyond school age.
Looking round the streets today I would say we must be able to scrape up over fifty percent, I doubt we can get sixty.
Here’s my tuppence worth : when indy2 is called (soon I hope) the Britnats will return to project fear2. Which we should all immediately call PROJECT LIE.
We can have project mcfear – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, prescription charges, uni fees, Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.
I think it will boil down to : Can the bbc/msm liars frighten enough pensioners ?
I am delighted to say I really don’t think they can.
‘Really’ not reallt, I blame this crazy kitten jumping on the keyboard.
Jousef o Louain.
Then YOU fecking open his eyes!!
THAT is our job!
Each one of us who wants Independence, to talk to those nearest to us and hopefully convince at least one each.
YOU know the score. Get it out there!
Astonished says:
16 July, 2018 at 3:05 pm
Here’s my tuppence worth : when indy2 is called (soon I hope) the Britnats will return to project fear2. Which we should all immediately call PROJECT LIE.
We can have project mcfear – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, prescription charges, uni fees, Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.
I think it will boil down to : Can the bbc/msm liars frighten enough pensioners ?
I am delighted to say I really don’t think they can.
The YES campaign really needs to set the agenda this time – if we leave it for the BritNats and their media to set the agenda again, we will loose. So much time and energy wasted last time fire-fighting all the MSM lies and fake news distortions.
This time we have to grab the narrative. Become outrageous. If we wait and respond to the inevitable attacks from the BritNats, we just end up on the back foot and loosing again. It is that simple. Not sure yet how we do it, but this time we have to go all-out attack. There is too much at stake.
Attack. Attack. Attack.
Please remember this broken promise among every pre Indy Vote promise that the Westminster parties pledged.
Holyrood will be the most powerful devolved government anywhere in the world.
As you now see, it is so powerful that Westminster claim to be able to quash out of hand anything and everything they do.
For the hard of learning and Labour supporters, that’s No Power whatsoever unless you agree with everything they wish
to impose on us.
The britnat MSM are no friends of ours. We can expect nothing from them. However, there are clever ways of baiting them and getting them (unwittingly) on to our narrative. But we have to be bold, we have to be clever.
Dare I say it…
We have to be trolls. 🙂
This time we have to grab the narrative. Become outrageous.
They used to clear people from the Highlands & Islands off their land and send them to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.
The Space Port in Sutherland will be used to send us to the moon, Mars and beyond.
You heard it here first.
Outrageous you say!?
I’ve often thought that is voters we’re presented with a menu of reserved powers and asked which they thought should be moved to Holyrood, most folks would tick most, especially after a campaign to highlight the advantages and opportunities. We would end up pretty close to full Indy.
Perhaps that is the way to campaign for Indy. Present a list of powers we don’t have and tell voters the object of the referendum is to get their agreement to have all on the list repatriated! Make it all about specific powers, but all of them. Play the BritNats at their own game, so when they promise some, we can promise all!
An OT musical moment. You gotta love Scotland ….
“wouldn’t be right if the rain wasn’t drowning the stones”
… I love that line!
link to youtube.com
Britannia unchained is an excellent concept –ditto Scotland the country, nation and the brand unchained from Britannia. When Britannia and Scotland become unchained from each other Britannia can take back control of Empire 2.0, its idle workers, benefit scroungers, the feckless class and further enrich the 0.1% who work really hard at tax avoidance.
Scotland unchained has enormous potential as a small outward looking nation, charting its own course in the world and holding onto the principles of democracy.
‘Fewer Britons work. Those who work put in fewer hours .For the overwhelming majority , the financial rewards from hard work have declined because of higher taxes or perverse disincentives in the welfare system…All the evidence points to a decline in the work ethic in Britain…A decreasing number of people, working fewer hours are expected to shoulder the responsibility for an increasing minority who are willfully not working
…in many ways Britain faces a harder task than Canada…It does not enjoy Canada’s resilient financial sector or its bounty of commodity exports. The windfall of the North Sea oil is starting to peter away…Perhaps the greatest achievement of Thatchers’s administration was less taking on the unions or liberalising the economy, but making Britain believe in itself again…Many of the world’s democracies liberal and free market insituitions derive their origins in Britain
…British values helped to create the modern world…Britan has lost confidence in itself and what it stands for. Britain once ruled the empire on which the sun never set. Now it can barely keep England and Scotland
together…Britannia Unchained is unembarassed about its support for business, the profit motive and the individual drive of the wealth creator’
Britannia Unchained: Global Lessons for Growth and Prosperity ISBN-10: 1137032235
‘Corporate America’s actions suggest that most of the benefits of the corporate tax cut will flow to investors in general and top corporate executives in particular…contrast to the relatively small distributions of tax benefits to employees, estimating that the sum committed to buybacks last quarter could fund 6.8 million $1000 bonus cheques to workers every trading day’
link to ft.com
‘Media reports on the Paradise Papers have subsided, but no one has forgotten the collection of 13.4 million leaked financial files taken from a combination of offshore service providers and company registries, according to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists’
link to msn.com
I’ve often thought that is voters we’re presented with a menu of reserved powers and asked which they thought should be moved to Holyrood, most folks would tick most, especially after a campaign to highlight the advantages and opportunities. We would end up pretty close to full Indy.
Except that the powers are not sovereignly held – WM can take them from us again any time it pleases. Which is exactly what’s going on right now.
ONLY sovereign independence can ever stop that from ever happening again.
The WM Tories (backed by their Scots contingent) have effectively shown that Power Devolved is Power Retained. What’s the point of having devolved powers whent hey can be taken from you any time WM pleases?
Devo is Deid.
It’s indy or just STFU and forget it Scotland.
OT I see the Brit nats are at it again sayIng a space station will be opened in Scotland in a few years time ??? This will be the same ones who said the frigates would be built on the Clyde remember the saying fool me once shame on You fool me twice shame on ME so don’t believe their lies and vows vote for FREEDOM
Lest we forget:
link to snp.org
This is the kind of thing Britnats don’t want getting out.
Proud Cybernat says:
I agree, but the reality is we have a disconnect where folks trust and value Holyrood, they want it to run much more …. yet don’t see the obvious next step of just making Holyrood in charge of everything through Indy.
I’m not proposing Devo, just packaging Indy in terms a large majority of people already seem comfortable with.
Independence can apparently seem a scary concept for some and lends itself to being portrayed as separatist, damaging, isolationist, withdrawing, etc etc. by our enemies. When it should be about building, rationalising, empowering, effecting, growing.
Re the proposed ‘UK spaceport’, what may be used for space exploration, hardware all Made in England apparently, might also be used for ‘defence’. Just more Westminster snake oil.
The Record poll at least backs up Rev’s poll, even if not by such a large margin. Disappointing to see the level of ignorance, not surprising as Rev says. Also disappopinint to see so many Tory voters as opposed to politicians, not wanting more devolution.
Despite always being in favour of independence and voting yes in 2014, I was woefully ignorant of the political landscape in Scotland back then. Thanks to Wings that’s not the case today.
These poll results show there’s a rich seam of ignorance and apathy amongst the electorate ready to be mined.
Older voters have had the benefit of a fairly stable political situation over their lives and I reckon no amount of info on the reality post Brexit is going to convince them of the peril we’re going to be in. But hammering home the issue of reserved powers and the limits of our devolved power will hopefully prepare the ground ahead of indyref.
And yes it is up to us all to spread that information far and wide.
Devolved-Reserved, Block Grant
Deliberately confusingly named terms for those folk who really aren’t up on the subject, and that’s pretty much most folk, us geeky lot can forget that as well at times that it’s not even that people are stupid, it’s like algebra if you never have to use it you haven’t a clue what it is
Block Grant for example, I bloody well hate that term implying England gives us something for nothing
Reserved powers could mean anything, rather nice ones perhaps with good manners, it’s all bloody nonsense, Ach I’m away tae sharpen ma sword, they’d understand that if I took the lip aff their face and devolved their Arse to the coup
Ahh our great Scottish language, what joy
@yesindyref2 3.54pm
Tory voters would see the rest of us devolved to the cemetery
They aren’t nice you know, never met one who wouldn’t see us fight each other to the death for their entertainment and then refuse to pay up on their gambling debt
“For instance NHS (Scotland) should have become Health Scotland well before IndyRef1. It is a Scottish entity being protected and run well here in Scotland by the Scottish Government – everyone needs to be clear on that!”
@galamcennalath, It beats me why this hasn’t been done yet.
A LOT of people think NHS Scotland is just a subdivision of a UK NHS.
Artyhetty says “I really want to see a good clear leaflet posted through every door in Scotland outlining what is devolved and what is reserved. I suspect it would be very costly to do though”
I posted at the same time as you did. There is a link there to an excellent leaflet that outlines what is devolved and what is reserved in a Q & A segment. Printing 1,000 of those costs £37 all in, 5,000 less than £60. Get together with other like minds and get out in the good weather. We might not cover Scotland but if we can get Yes groups out around the country, we can certainly reach many tens of thousands of folk.
Scott Mann (who he? – Ed.) has resigned from the UK Government.
Time for all good Scot Men (and Women) to resign from this god-awful “Union” … 😉
Thepnr Thanks for the information on the court case
None of this is important as BBC/ Yoon papers will go big on Alex Salmond RT Show broke Ofcom rules.
Note the response: We also acknowledged that the questions read out by Mr Salmond were not ‘invented’ as alleged by the complainant and that only one of the six tweets and emails referred to Brexit, the matter raised by the complainant in this case”.
One of the misleading invented tweets read out was “what does slainte mean?”
The complaint referred to the inaugural Alex Salmond Show and it is pretty common BBC / ITV for producers to have “fake” / controversial tweets / texts read out to spice things up a bit.
This is the extent of pettiness that concerns anti Indy people .
As for Ofcom .. we know it is worse than useless when challenging BBC Bias whether it is over Indy or Brexit.
Hi Stu,
is it possible to give a breakdown of the percentage of Tories/Labour who actually knew what’s devolved and what isn’t.
@Dr Jim
Maybe I’m lucky, I’ve known a few decent Tory voters, a couple of politicians, and even one whose son became an MP he would have been proud of – didn’t stand again in 2015, but did run a few cross-party campaigns you’d have agreed with – not Tory policy ones 🙂
They’re not all bad …
Just an idea (and probably already floated, so apologies if it has).
Knowing that some Scots enjoy the odd tipple, could not someone come up with the idea of designing a beer mat with “Devolved Matters” on one face and “Reserved Matters” on the other?
Where better than the local hostelry to have discussions on your constitutional future and have the evidence of what is already in the remit of Holyrood and what could be obtained on indy – the full gamut of powers now held by Westminster?
I no nothing of the logistics nor the cost of such an enterprise. I’m only thinking aloud.
In the meantime …
link to parliament.scot
Dr Jim @ 1.37p.
Doc you are bang on.
Spoke to a nice gent today moved over from Belfast the union is strong with him. We were talking about our concerns re Brexit.
He admitted Westminster has lost it.
I offered Independence being the logical answer.
He said we would starve under independence.
When I pointed out we are actually wealthy he said I know but the Church I attend doesn’t approve of independence.
Quote the Rev. ” that while Scots have a reasonable understanding of how devolution works in the abstract the details are of little interest to them…..”
IMO this is a failing of the Scottish Government, for the last two years all we’ve heard is “Power Grab” and “Constitutional Crisis” . . . No explanation of what has been achieved with the powers at hand.
This is my favourite example , there are numerous more.
Scotland’s beef herd has achieved BSE free status more than 2 years before England’s and Wales
BUT I’ve never heard this stated by an SNP politician.
Ok, In terms of Parliamentary machinations I am pretty ignorant but surely there should be a regulation in the Scottish parliament whereby the presiding officer doesn’t allow non-devolved issues to be brought up in debate.
Failing that, perhaps we should all plead ignorant and write to our unionist MPs/MSPs about the above issues. Any replies which are misleading should be publicised.
OT, chust awee bit;
Brick by brick, wall by wall, the empire falls.
link to uk.businessinsider.com
The Tories are trying to take back devolved powers. Scotland revenues are still going to Westminster Treasury. Ruining the Oil & Gas sector (too high taxes when the price had fallen). Rulning the fishing sector. Dead fish being throw back for years instead of using bigger nets, like Norway. The farming sector Westminster illegally taking £Millions in CAP payments intended for hard pressed Scottish farmers. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP in the EU. Losing £Nillion in Scotland and thousands of jobs.
Scotland has to pay interest on Westminster borrowing not spent in Scotland. Scotland has to pay £1Billion for Trident.More revenues is raised in Scotland (pro rata) but Westminster had cut the Scottish budget 10% a year since 2010. Over £3Billion. The Tories have cut investment in solar, banned wind turbine. Not invested in tidal power. Building Hinkley Point costing £Billions and less safe. HS2 a total waste of public money with no business case. Cut investment in rail in the north of England and Scotland which would have cut rail times throughout Britain. Leading to less flights.
We can bypass the press or at least co-opt them, by using the question to frame the debate and at the same time give an honest appraisal of exactly what we will be voting on. Last time the colonialists promised Devo Max and much more that they knew they’d never deliver.
The question this time round should be “Should Scotland be a normal, self governing country or England’s colony?”
I’d love to see the colonialist politicians and their propaganda outlets (MSM) Polish that particular turd. Vote to be a colony! Who would vote against being a NORMAL country.
Those supporting Scottish independence aren’t Nationalists. We are simply DEMOCRATS seeking Democracy!
Oxford English Dictionary definition of Colony
NOUN
1A country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.
The UK’s EU referendum has proven we are not an Equal Partner in a Union.
What I hearing from my English Brexit friends is the reason they voted to leave the EU was to take their country back! Ask them about Scottish independence they are against it seems getting country back does not apply to the Scots. When I challenge this their reply is Scotland does not have the politicians capable of running the country.. They have a strange idea of us Scots
Donald Bruce : They say Scotland does not have the politicians ?? Have they looked at Westminster ? Good god.
Clydebuilt @ 6.31 pm
BSE free Scotland
link to news.gov.scot
What you won’t see or hear is this news, which contains a statement from the relevant minister, reported in the papers or on TV despite the release from the SG being circulated to the MMS.
After all the publicity via opposition criticism of Derek McKay’s budget I am sure people are aware of the new tax powers of the SG for example.
Brexit isn’t nearly over. Like a football match, predicting the final score is often premature and therefore ill-advised.
The present and the future are invariably connected by the unknown and the unforeseen.
I’m betting on Scottish Independence, even though I don’t know how we can get there.
Re: reserved powers. Next election, for no extra cost, a candidate with an interest in accuracy could list what was relevant on their campaign leaflet.
E.g. candidate x handily highlights that the Westminster election is about tax, economy, war, immigration, foreign relations and not about health, schools, roads, or bins. Candidate y bangs on about school catchment areas and looks like an idiot.
Weird O/T thought.
How long before a dishwater “perfume” company start pushing an aroma called ‘Novichok’?
Let’s face it, we already have Opium, Poison, Killer and probably a few more distatefull ones.
Brexit changes everything. If having one’s legal identity forcibly amended isn’t shitty enough, Brexit will undermine living standards of Scots in general, and Scots women in particular. Scotland voted against Brexit, so acquiescence with Brexit would confirm Scotland’s crippling lack of self-confidence and represent a failure to support the principle of universal human rights.
Brexit is bad, mk.
link to ukandeu.ac.uk
Prelude to Brexit: Euroscepticism in Great Britain, 2014
link to www2.le.ac.uk
The politics and economics of Brexit
link to tandfonline.com
If broadcasting was devolved the Scottish Government could set up a self funding Scottish Broadcasting Service,
using the Hypothecation of the tax from the £300 million raised in Scotland from the Broadcasting Tax (tv license),
with a dedicated SBS we could educate,inform and entertain instead of having the BBC misinform,dumb down,lie,make twee cozy little england costume dramas,lie and lie and lie,
and we could kick/boot out the britnat propagandists than infest the north britnat BBC.
@Luigi says: 16 July, 2018 at 3:20 pm:
” … Not sure yet how we do it, but this time we have to go all-out attack. There is too much at stake.
Attack. Attack. Attack.”/>
Good luck with that, Luigi, – – – you’re going to need it. Thing is that neither the Westminster Establishment nor the SG set the agenda and neither do the three unionist or the independence supporting political parties – because it is the MSM, SMSM and the broadcasters who set the agenda and the sad part is that the media is not only influenced by the Westminster Establishment but owned and paid for by them.
When the leader of the Labour Party accountancy unit in Scotland can get away with getting to his feet in the Holyrood parliaments FMQ’s session week in and week out and exhibit, before the entire hostile to Scotland media, and any interested members of the public that he hasn’t a clue of what actual powers the parliament he is elected to serve in has, there is only one conclusion – how can the Labour Party in Scotland hope to ever become the Scottish Government when they haven’t got a clue what that job entails?
“The Tories Vs Everyone Else” I interesting. But I think this is not the ACTUAL reality.
Personally I think that Scottish political opinion is hardening. During the Referendum in 14, and then afterwards in GEs etc the general picture has been Indy Vs Unionist with ‘Don’t Knows’ caught in the middle.
There’s been a move where, instead of perhaps voting Labour or LibDem as they may previously have done, those who were strong Unionists have become inexorably drawn to their ‘natural home’ of ‘The Conservative & UNIONIST Party’ (The capitals are mine, due to the fact that this part of their title has become ever more prominent)
Publications like ‘The Telegraph’ did their utmost to show that the Indy vote was to be split down religious lines in 14. An effort has been made to ‘dogwhistle’ the extremist Orange vote by Davidson (shame on her) and Labour’s BEST leader was Dugdale, who, after the event was (to be charitable) inexperienced as a politician.
Now I see that London Mayor Khan is trying to characterise the wish for independence as ‘racism’ Perhaps he’s trying to get some of the Orange vote back? More likely they’d consider voting Indy if they really DID think it was racist (but I’m being facetious)
So, finally, I guess what I’m saying is that it is not the right wing, it is specifically religious bigotry (and what they are told to think) that is going on here.
We need to aim at those who ‘Don’t Know’ how they’d vote. There ARE those who vote Tory who are ACTUALLY right wing and NOT Orange but the ‘resurgance’ of the Tory vote just shows the depths to which all concerned will sink to gain their aims.
Remember, the extremists can’t be persuaded because, although they know what they think, they don’t know WHY they think that…
OT
I have to say this at the risk of being highly unpopular – yet again – with fellow Indy supporters.
I can’t believe that some of the people who would protest against the BBC, withhold their licence fees, talk about the BBC bias against Indy (yes, it is biased against Indy, the SNP and even at times Devolution and Scotland herself), can allow the BBC which is dutifully reported in much of the media, even including The National, about Trump, can be so taken in by the propaganda that has existed against him since day one of his election bid.
Is he a saint, no, but do you truly believe all the junk that the BBC dredges up on its one-sided attack on him? Like Ukraine for example, pre-Trump, where it’s all those pesky Russians not allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO and have missiles and anti-missile missiles and anti-anti-missiles missiles missiles based on its soil scant miles from its border with Russia and therefore within easy reach of Moscow itself?
And does anyone think that the US “establishment” is really any different from the UK “establishment”?
No comments on my leaflet posts. This is just a big talking shop, isn’t it? When someone suggest actually doing something…tumbleweed.
Posted before but the post has disappeared, aint seen anybody commenting on this poll by survation ? Done for Dr/Mirror end of June with 16/17 year olds included. They obviously didnt like results and reran with 16/17 year olds excluded and got the 49% for ayes last week.
If there was a referendum tomorrow with the question “Should Scotland be an Independent country?”, how would you vote?
Yes – 54%
No – 46%
Strange thing there was also a should there be an indy2 ref and the results were 45% against and 42% for , ask the same folk how they would vote and its 54% yes, go figure.
Full datacsets on Survation web page my stupid Ipad wont copy the url so can archive or even post the link here, it wasvon my previous post so if it pops up you can get it there.
@Lenny Hartley
I think that’s the poll from June 2016, after the EU Ref. Sounds like it.
Hi Clydebuilt at 6:31 pm.
You stated,
“Scotland’s beef herd has achieved BSE free status more than 2 years before England’s and Wales
BUT I’ve never heard this stated by an SNP politician.”
Happy to help you out. This quote is from the link below:-
Rural Economy Secretary Fergus Ewing has announced the Scottish Government will consult on plans to apply for BSE Negligible Risk – status – a move which could unlock new export opportunities for Scottish red meat and add value throughout the red meat supply chain.
Scotland has been BSE-free since 2009, has had no cases of BSE in animals born since 2005, and is now eligible to make an application for BSE Negligible Risk status as a region of the UK.
Speaking at the Royal Highland Show yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary said: “Our premium produce is world-renowned but there are countries to which we are currently unable to export Scotch Beef and Scotch Lamb. Achieving BSE Negligible Risk status could help open up markets across the world for these premium products, and potentially reduce waste and inefficiencies in the supply chain worth more than a million pounds.“
Forgot the link…
link to heraldscotland.com
O/T For anyone interested the Cross Border Trade Bill amendments are just about to be voted on in Westminster.
Read the OFCOM Alex Salmond complaint decision. It’s interesting in the fact that they find it breached rule 2.2 as it found viewers would have believed the tweets were from the public (only two were from anyone with any connection to the programme, but being a friend of someone on the freelance crew or having been employed in the past by Mr Salmond, not on TV show, also seems to make you part of the production staff according to OFCOM).
This raises an awkward question for Question Time and various other BBC programmes. Question Time often presents people as ordinary members of the public but are in fact party activists (normally Tory but no doubt others also). Plus the regular appearance if ‘independent’ think tanks spokespersons without revealing the nature and funding of these organisations.
To quote OFCOM, “Factual programmes or items or portrayals of factual matters must not materially mislead the audience”. The BBC is continually in breach of these rules.
This was obviously a political motivated judgement as the compliant (only one) was regarding a brexit tweet. They did not uphold this compliant but then decided to investigate all the tweets that had nothing to do with the original complaint.
They probably know little of the do’s and dont’s of devolution, because the BBC and the MSM wont report any it for fear of turning even more people against the union.
Its Bias propaganda by omission. It sickens me that people know so little of what is going on. The independence movement is really up against it with nearly all the MSM against independence and completely ignoring the terrible effects of the union on Scotland. This poll just goes to prove the people are deliberately being kept in the dark.
@harry mcaye
I’m pretty sure that just about everybody reading Wings and who read your post sees your suggestion as a great idea. I know that I do and honestly I admire the fact that you are one of the few that will put in the effort.
So I’ve made a promise to myself and that is that I will get 1000 leaflets printed and get them through the doors in my local area. You’re right if just 1000 of us could do that then that is a 1,000,000 leaflets and there are only just over 2,000,000 housholds in Scotalnd.
Many hands make light work and people like yourself and all the other volunteers manning stalls or Yes shops/cafes and delivering leaflets will be the ones that will ultimately make the difference between winning and losing.
@ Astonished 3.05 pm I like this
We can have project EXPOSED LIES – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, £8 per item prescription charges, £9000 per annum uni fees, Sale of Scottish Water ,water meters , DESTRUCTION and sale of YOUR SNHS , Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.
As many have commented the ignorance of devolved powers and the restrictions placed on the SG by wastemonster aligned with the total whitewashing of the power grab by the usual suspects is IMO leading to a very unnecessary hard fight for independence , if Scots were REALLY TRUTHFULLY informed of the lunacy approaching and the impact it will have on their lives it would be a cakewalk
Any leaflets have to be BRUTAL exposing the LIES being told by the brit nats and highlight the contempt Scotland is held
Harry macay @ 8.44
Well no it’s not just a talking shop Harry,it’s an exchange of ideas and opinions..
I had intended is taking your plan to my local Yes group. But there was no really any point sayin anything unless they were going to go with it.
You should always post your thoughts on what you see would help,they do get read and I would much rather read suggestions than the trolling!
Keep them coming…..
Clause 16 (new) by SNP gets the boot 35votes ayes to 300+ Nos.
Jings it’s so antiquated this voting in the lobby. 🙁
That’s it for me!
Only 36 people voted in support of clause 16 in the Cross Border Trade Bill for a whole list of “Additional regulations requiring the consent of the Scottish Parliament”
An SNP clause of course that everybody else in parliament opposed.
@Thepnr and Harry Mcaye,
Why don’t we get a list of names/volunteers and all chip in to get a better price.
We each get 1000 leaflets and we all agree, what the message is that we want to put out there.
I definitely think it would be a good use of our resources to put leaflets out encouraging people to ‘have a look at wings’
@call me dave
Might want to stick with it for a bit yet to see if all the Brexiteer clauses from Rees-Mogg get through. First one is about to be revealed now and another later on Northern Ireland is importnat.
Both these clauses if passed scupper the white paper that has been sent to Brussels according to Ian Dunt of politics.co.uk.
link to politics.co.uk
Lets all start being our own media!
Who’s in?
@ Ghillie Re: “my apolitical acquaintance”. I certainly hope you show more restraint and respect for those who’s minds you’re trying to change than you did to me in your unnecessary outburst, above. Getting people’s names correct is also crucial if you want them to take you seriously.
Perhaps you in your wisdom can tell us all what it is exactly that underlies the tiresome “I hate Sturgeon and the SNP” routine we all know and hate. We urgently need to crack that one in order to have our case listened to, not to mention for the benefit of our personal and collective political education. By-the-way: my apolitical acquaintance will now be voting ‘Yes’. Job done.
@harry mcaye
Leaflet looks good – but I can’t really read it! Anyone got a lonk? Or link, even?
@Patrick Roden
Your idea is good but would mean a lot of work which is usually left to one or two people to organise. You will get a better price the more you buy but who is left to send individual bundles of 1000 leaflets all over Scotland?
I think this is best done locally, ideally by the existing Yes groups, expanding on harry’s suggestion if there was a way to combine the funds of all yes groups together for the printing of leaflets then that might be the way to go.
There’s no doubt about it though we could be better organised and that means being more effective. I think this stuff will grow, if you are a member of a Yes group then throw these ideas into the pot as Liz g above said.
Westminster in a mess, another government minister has apparently resigned.
link to twitter.com
Will BBC TV news report on Labour abstaining on SNP motion in HoC tonight for Scots Parly to have say on parts of Brexit White Paper effecting devolved issues.
@Josef O Luain 10.02pm
What they mean is *They fear Sturgeon and the SNP* and hate being shown they’re wrong it makes them feel small and instead of just taking it on the chin and being bigger better decent human beings about things,.. they hate
IF 1,000 A4 leaflets weighed 2 Kg max, that would be £2.95 second class from memory.
We’re all busy with stuff, and it shows the value of people highlighting others good ideas or postings. I doubt I’d always agree with Thepnr on some things, but if he points something out as worth looking at, I just about always look, even if I’ve skimmed over other postings.
Thepnr @ 10:09
Westminster in a mess, another government minister has apparently resigned.
link to twitter.com
______
That would be Guto Bebb, the Minister for Defence Procurement. He is the grandson of one of the founders of Plaid Cymru (1925) and was the Agent of my CA in Wales (Caernarfon) before defecting to the Tories in 2001 as he did not agree with the Europhile policies of the Party.
Stood as a candidate in many National Assembly and General Elections and defeated each time until he won Aberconwy at the 2010 GE.
Has had his knife in a former Viceroy for Western Colonies (David Jones) for many years, despite both being Eurosceptics. (yet more scope for analogies of Tory rats in sacks.)
wrecsamplaid.blogspot.com/2014/09/guto-bebb-david-jones-and-north-wales.html
Have a good evening!
Re Devolved & Reserved Powers Leaflet
It might also be worth also highlighting the powers that will be taken back if Westminster gets its way ……
Just a different colour and coded as Powers under threat sort of thing!
@Gary says: 16 July, 2018 at 8:16 pm:
” … During the Referendum in 14, and then afterwards in GEs etc the general picture has been Indy Vs Unionist with ‘Don’t Knows’ caught in the middle.”
You are on the right lines, Gary, but not quite there yet. The entire history of Britain has had certain common threads that have run through it since ever humans recorded Britain’s history and the first to do so were the Roman invaders in around 54 years before Christ was born.
There are several things about that recorded history that still apply today. The first being that the recording of it has always been the view of it by the South East corner of Britain that the Romans named Londinium. The second is that the recorded history always has a political slant to it that depends upon the particular version that becomes the official version.
The Roman history has several different slants and the politics behind it are biased by the person who was using Britain as a stepping stone to power back home in Rome. It is not coincidence that several of the Roman personages that ruled over Britain were to become the overall Roman Emperor back in Rome, However, there are contemporary accounts that are biased more towards another would be Roman Emperor.
Even today there is a little fact that not many Britons even heard about. The, “City of London”, and, “London, the City”, are two different entities. The City of London was the original walled city and some of those walls still exist today. It operates as a City State. It has its own Lord Mayor and has its, unelected by the people, representative who sits close to, but physically higher, than the House of Commons Speaker. He is never mentioned in proceedings and is known as, “The Remembrancer”. The City of London is thus the, independent of London City, financial square Mile.
See:-
link to en.wikipedia.org
The Remembrancer is though, part of, “The Establishment”.
Now just what is, “The Establishment”? I’ll tell you first what it isn’t. It is not just the Government of the United Kingdom for there is the powers of the Royalty and the aristocracy from the Anglo Saxon Germanic Tribes through several other Germanic tribal factions including the Normans who are NOT French as is so often assumed.
They were the same Germanic Tribes who were offered, and accepted, an area of France that became Normandy and the term Norman is derived from Norseman and these were among the Germanic Tribes who, at around the same period in history, were invited into south Britain when the Romans left the South Britons with utterly no idea of either defence or running a country by themselves, after several centuries under Roman rule.
However, Roman Britain and the new country the new elite rulers had called, “Angle Land”, that became England, (and often the whole of Britain), is still often wrongly referred to as being Anglo as in Anglo-Irish Treaty, but most of Roman Britain, was never the whole of the British Isles and England still isn’t all of Britain and neither is the United Kingdom all of Britain.
Now here is the truth that you haven’t quite grasped yet, Gary. The Establishment has never gone away and it still rules Westminster for the main unionist political parties are all parts of The Establishment. As are the Royals, the Lords, the Civil Service, The Church of England, the English Legal system, the upper strata of the English Education system, the financial sector, the Armed Forces, The Police Service, The Security Services and here is a wee proof of that particular pudding.
What is the first thing that happens when a HOC government of any political colour gets involved in a major war?
Westminster immediately declares a coalition war cabinet to govern the United Kingdom and you can bet your boots that it will be called The British Government and they will refer to the armed forces as The British Army, British Navy and British Air Force. Just as the Westminster lot of any political hue call themselves The British Government but are actually legally Her Majesty’s Government of Her United Kingdom – go figure.
@ Clydebuilt
“IMO this is a failing of the Scottish Government, for the last two years all we’ve heard is “Power Grab” and “Constitutional Crisis” . . . No explanation of what has been achieved with the powers at hand.”
Hi Clydebuilt,
SNP constantly send out press releases of their initiatives and achievements. Media in Scotland won’t print them. You can contact your local councillor/MSP and ask them to Email you copies of SNP press releases. It’s the only time you’ll get to see them for yourself – because you’ll never see them printed or broadcast by any media in Scotland.
See what I mean abput the media using anti-Putin and anti-Russia, and anti=Trump propaganda, in this case the Herald and Leask?
“The cyber operation, part of a larger campaign of Kremlin propaganda and disinformation, began on the very day Mr Trump”
But the 12 ALLEGED operatives have been INDICTED, not CONVICTED.
Standards in the media are truly woeful, no trial, no jury if appropriate, no judge, no verdict, not even a charge yet, just an Indictment.
Makes me puke. Don’t be caught out.
@ Thepnr
Yes I think there’s always the danger of people leaving the work to the ‘few’ but in this case we are only looking for people who want to buy bundles of flyers so that they can hand deliver them to households in their own area.
My thinking is that we purchase them in bulk to get a good price, then get them delivered to designated areas, such as Dundee ( my area) or we could even get them delivered in packs of 1000 to our own address, as yesindyref2 says above, it wouldn’t be too expensive.
Yesindyref2 yup i need to go to specsavers, i had a pal on the phone tonight with the conspiricy theory that they reran the poll excluding 16/17 years olds and my eyesight thought 2016 was 2018
Somebody posted on fb this morning, probably had the same hyperopia as me. ???
I’m reluctant to get involved in local yes groups, simply because I think we need to be able to kick ass if we must, but do this without the media being able to directly link us to the SNP or Yes.
For example, we need to get leaflets out calling Ruth Davidson out on Dark Money.
The leaflet should end by asking the reader why they hadn’t heard about the ‘Dark Money’ scandal, in the media.
Then ask ‘what else haven’t you been getting told?
We then kill two birds with one stone:
The No campaign & the Britnat media.
Legerwood @ 7.16pm
There are other ways to get the message of BSE free herd out . . . Than to rely on the opposition’s media.
1. FMQ’s
2. Party Political Broadcasts
3. Social Media (FM’s tweets, Facebook)
They’re needing to show some endeavour. There’s a membership of over 100 thousand
Re the leaflets,
They could be titled plain and simple as……
THE TRUTH
@Lenny Hartley
Very easy to do, so many articles aren’t dated, or take the current day’s date. And I’d say a lot of us have got excited at a find only to realise it’s old news or even spoof news. I think that even happened with BBCScotlandshire at first!
“For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game”
It is too late, in my humble opinion.
Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):
“Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.
The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.
But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.
It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.
Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.
Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.”
O/T
Congratulations to Presidents Trump and Putin for meeting to try to ease tensions between their countries, and the world at large.
Shame that with a few exceptions like Ken500 and myself, the vast majority of posters on this Scottish independence supporting site were on the same side as the anti-Russian warmongering neocons and Saint Theresa of England and Wales.
Lots of good comments tonight on getting various messages out. I have long despaired(causes shouting at the telly)at how poor the SNP are at squeezing messages in when on air.
I will not be the first one to suggest they need training in media presentation and stop using Unionist language.
It’s also time to challenge the irritant of the whole of Scotland being compared to a region of England. I have heard SNP ministers do this on air e.g. “London and Scotland both voted remain”.
It really is time to “up the game”.
Just posted on the Rev’s twitter from the HoC tonight you really aught to watch this to see the contempt that the SNP are subject to in “that place” full of buffoons and halfwits.
link to twitter.com
SNP MP: “I so move that Scotland stay forever part of the UK”.
Tories and Labour: “NO, go away”.
Sounds good to me.
I know little of Tom Gallagher but as the successive tweets have flashed up over the months I realise that he is several bricks short of a full hod. I did wonder why we rarely hear of Alan Cochrane these days and I suspect it is because he sees the stuff Gallagher and his crew put up and says “Screw it, I was happy being irascible and contrarian but I’m buggered if I’m going to try and out-crazy that lot.”
yesindyref2 says:
16 July, 2018 at 8:34 pm
….Like Ukraine for example, pre-Trump, where it’s all those pesky Russians not allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO and have missiles and anti-missile missiles and anti-anti-missiles missiles missiles based on its soil scant miles from its border with Russia and therefore within easy reach of Moscow itself?
To a degree I agree with you. I think we underestimate just how threatened Russia felt over the West’s “effective” annexation of Ukraine, which pretty much saw NATO and the EU parking itself on Russia’s lawn, and Russia’s own subsequent annexation of Crimea was effectively the Russians saying to the West “Keep Off The Grass”.
To that extent, and not forgetting Crimea was reasonably happy to be annexed by Russia, both East and West had flexed their muscles, looked each other in the eye, and quietly defused the tension and kept the peace…. kinda.
Where I don’t agree with you, is that scenario is neither the narrative nor the strategy which Trump is actually pursuing. I don’t believe Trump is any kind of a statesman, and just not clever enough to pursue such an incisive “Gorbachev-type” strategy.
I actually think Trump has a very shallow and fickle appreciation of people he comes into contact with. He will open up to cheerful people wherever he feels empathy, but he will have no patience for door, serious people he dislikes. To be honest, I think Trump sees the world like the Chewing the Fat sketch “Good guy – Wank”. Trump would sup with the Devil himself if he came across as “Good Guy”.
I don’t mean to imply that Putin is the Devil incarnate, simply that Trump lacks the political acumen and perception to judge.
I also don’t believe for a minute the Russian’s have got themselves a Manchurian Candidate President, nor indeed have some seedy leverage over Trump. That’s all BS. I think it’s a lot simpler. Trump just hasn’t the radar to see the bigger picture. If it’s shallow and fickle, Trump’s your man. If it’s complex and deep rooted, Trump simply hasn’t got the wits, imagination or the attention span.
He is simply out of his depth and sowing the seeds of his own demise. That’s how I read it anyway.
Hi Patrick Roden at 10:46 pm.
You typed,
“For example, we need to get leaflets out calling Ruth Davidson out on Dark Money.
The leaflet should end by asking the reader why they hadn’t heard about the ‘Dark Money’ scandal, in the media.
Then ask ‘what else haven’t you been getting told?
We then kill two birds with one stone.”
That’s a very good example of the suppression of news by the MSM and Scottish TV broadcasters in support of the unionist establishment.
@Clydebuilt says: 16 July, 2018 at 10:51 pm@
“1. FMQ’s”
Oh! Come on!
What’s the first thing the SMSM does with FMQ’s?
They have the likes of Brian Tylor talking over the FM wile introducing FMQ’s. Why not introduce it before the event begins?
Then we get Brian Taylor’s interpretation of what the FM is saying – sometimes even while she is still saying it. He even sometimes tells the viewers what she is going to say before she says it. Now here’s another thing, why does Taylor not point out when Leonard is making an arse of himself by talking across Leonard by explaining that what Leonard has just complained about is a reserved to Westminster matter and the SG can do nothing about it?
If the BBC can get away with wee Nick Robinson telling the viewers that the former FM had not answered his question when many of us had watched the press conference live, just minutes before, and thus knew the FM had gone to great lengths to explain in great depth his answers to a very aggressive attacking barrage of questions by Robinson then the BBC is, and does, distort and edit everything to suit the unionist cause.
Trump Putin Summit hysteria
link to caltonjock.com
Wee Nikki, skilled as sver, navigates the minefield of the Trump visit – from BBC
The American president did not meet Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, however, she denied she had refused to see him.
At a gay pride event in Glasgow on Saturday, she told the BBC: “If the opportunity arises to meet the president I will do that and I’m sure if the opportunity arises in the future we will have lots to talk about, including the close and very important links between our two countries.
“In democracies, it’s also important to be able to focus also on where we perhaps disagree, and lots of people disagree with the policies of the Trump administration.”
– the last line is pure comedy – on the level of “a very modest man, with a lot to be modest about”. Boom-tish, try the veal
They were going to make her Queen of the Pride festival but it was decided – they already had FAR too many of those.
Some of the over-the-top emotional responses from Yessers about Trump worry me – it shows naivete.
There’s a great Kiernan/Hemphill sketch from Chewin’ the Fat – one guy shows the new guy to his surroundings, pointing to his new workmates
good guy … wank … good guy … wank … wank …
I think a lot of people look on US presidents the same way
– but its ALL “WANKS”
– the only difference is the democrats do it because they “love you” and the republicans do the same thing because “its what you need” – nice and nasty, friendly and mean, good cop and bad cop … Obama had so much charisma he could drone-strike an entire clan, land in a helicopter and the survivors would be asking for selfies. Presidents are employees, they earn a wage, but its always the aame people in charge.
Hillary struck me as something even worse than Trump because – on reading her policies – it seemed clear she really wanted more wars and she was not talking about yet more proxy ones against the largely defenceless – she wanted to take on countries that can defend themselves – Russia and China. Being in NATO, we all get dragged in.
I do not want to see a Sarmat missile flying towards Scotland at 11000mph to destroy my beautiful country and its beautiful people – just because some mouth dribblers in the US voted for Hillary cuz they thought she was “Dorothy with the Ruby Slippers”. Will the last one alive please plant the rainbow flag on the smoking cinder that is the earth?
Trump is a man who can be “honestly bought” – he is a huckster, a wheeler and dealer, a little bit woo – a little bit wee – he has no ideology or beliefs – to him everything is malleable and every situation can be sorted by a “DEAL”. This isn’t a lot to get excited about, but it won’t get you killed.
As for his persona and public statements – its pure theatre – this guy is the world’s #1 Windup Merchant – or as we call it these days, a TROLL – he is a 14 year old on the internet making edgy shitposts in order to “trigger” his enemies. Once you get the emotional response, people stop thinking, then you can manipulate them, walk them around.
People don’t know what to make of him – and that’s deliberate. The first thing he did in Europe, setting down – he starts selling US arms and fracked gas. He is rational. But you don’t deal with a windup-merchant by getting wound-up – you don’t take the bait – and from the previous point, if you have something he wants, then you have leverage. The guy has an absolute raging hard-on for Scotland and golf … he just wants a little love.
The internal debate among the US deep state is the forever war between the “mad dogs” and the “realists” – there is a list of countries to be bombed and the argument is on the timing and running order, not much else. The mad-dogs usually lose, which is good because they have this thing about nukes – they want to use them, always have. Right now there is a US programme to make their nukes, “smaller” with “programmable yields” so they become more “usable”.
There is also a high level debate about America as an Empire or as a Republic – the temptation is to become an empire and suck up all the wealth – but there are costs down the line as the whole thing will turn to shit and collapse eventually.
“America First” a slogan going back to Charles Lindbergh is the notion of America going back to being a, more or less, normal country (albeit vast and wealthy). While US oligarchs have accrued vast fortunes due to “globalism” i.e. Empire, it has been noticed America has been hollowed out by this – in America, if you are not a pro athlete, an actor, old money, ivy league or a banker, you’re basically fucked. Trump may be trying to go back the other way (- or maybe its just another con, I dunno.)
But even the current way may be coming to an end – the situation is as described in Brezinski’s “Grand Chessboard”, but in REVERSE. Just as he British Empire always fought against a unified Europe, the American Empire must fight against the integration of Eurasia – Euro tech, Russian resources, Chinese people – otherwise the scam is over; printing up dollars and getting real wealth in return, will be no more. And in the face of this, the imperialists, the “crazies”, fronted by Hillary, are “doubling down” – better to fight the Russians and the Chinese now, for as we wait, we get weaker and they get stronger. They want to make their omelettes by breaking everyone elses eggs in the process. There is a grim rationality to this, but it’s also – insanely dangerous.
The last election was thus between the REALIST-REPUBLIC side against the EMPIRE-MAD-DOG side – and there is a truly rational choice to be made.
I don’t think much of this level of analysis has ever passed thru the head of anyone wearing a “pussy hat”.
Racism … misogyny … homophobia … gimme a break!
What about living and dying? Does that count – remember that “equality” can always be guaranteed when everyone has nothing or we’re all in the grave.
Putin is a “bad man” because he won’t hand his country over to Exxon and Wall St a la Yeltsin – or let “oligarchs” – jumped up street thugs pillage it – but you WANT a leader to pursue his national interest, not sell it out. Believe NOTHING from the MSM, apart from the football scores.
The British Empire is totally evil and Scotland is far too valuable to it to let go – expect every dirty trick in the book in the forthcoming years up to – blatant refusal to allow our leaving, no matter the result of any referendum. Think of Spain-Catalonia ON STEROIDS. Now think about the friends you might have had and the friends you actually do have. I did a “funny” about the trannies the other day – but there’s nothing funny about this. Nothing.
@HandandShrimp
Met Alan Cochrane once in a local pub in Broughty Ferry his old haunt. Didn’t know it was him until told, he’s a big guy and a great orator of Burns as he showed in the pub.
Very proud of of his Scottish heritage he is or at least it seemed, a proud Scot but fits perfectly in my opinion, a very loud proud Scot but.
yesindy2ref, yup but I thought I was past all that, I normally double check everything but misread the polling dates , never mind worse things have happened, onto another subject, I think we should have Trump 24 hour TV, he is a laugh a minute, I honestly never thought he would be this much a total plonker.
@Breeks
Your assessment of Trump is pretty reasonable. I remember with all his pre-election promises the media sneered and said he’d have no chance as he’d be up against the establishment. Well, he started sacking them and they said he’d be impeached. Since then he’s sacked most of the rest and he still hasn’t been impeached.
Yes he’s politically naive, and that means he’s not a politician, but is dealing with politicians, and that gives him a huge advantage. Because he doesn’t follow the rules of the game, he doesn’t even know them. Nobody knows what he’ll do next.
@Confused
You’re totally certifiably mad but make a lot of sense.
‘Twas ever thus.
Re: clubbing together to purchase leaflets
There is a high probability that this could constitute joint campaigning.
In (defined) periods prior to elections and referendums, this is regulated by the Electoral Commission. As we saw last year, if an election is called with less notice than the appropriate period, the rules are applied retrospectively.
So it might not matter that we are not currently in a regulated period; it could be back-dated. The differences in the rules for elections and referendums are not huge.
I am not, of course, suggesting that people should not collaborate, but I do think that we should be aware, especially of the terms of the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning, and Trade Union Adminstration Act 2014, often referred to as the Gagging Law.
The EC has numerous guidance documents available, such as link to electoralcommission.org.uk
and
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
(There are more, dealing with specific issues in more detail, but those two give an overview.)
Jackie Baillie. The name should alert readers to yet another
SNAFU
link to caltonjock.com
Shrodingers Cat @ 1.04
While it’s good advice and well spotted/remembered.
If we win the vote then the electoral commission will have no power over us?
I’m minded not to give a shit about playing by their rules this time around.
It’s not as if they did anything when Westminster ignores them
Jist sayin:)
Anyway to finish off this unusual digression, yeah, saw Clinton in operation in a debate against Trump and it sent shivers down my backbone, a warmonger of the worst kind. If she’d got in, we probably would already be a smoking cinder, with aliens posting diversion signs around the Solar system “Keep out- highly contaminated, may be contagious terminal madness, suspected biological brain-sapping attack. No salvage allowed, no rescue possible.”.
Yesindyref2 @ 1.24
Well…. I’ve seen rumours that She is mibbi going to run again in 2020!!!
@yesindyref2 says: 17 July, 2018 at 12:49 am:
” … he doesn’t follow the rules of the game … “
That’ll be because he doesn’t know it’s a game.
” … Nobody knows what he’ll do next … “
That’ll be because neither does The Donald know what he’ll do next – Hell! He even doesn’t often know what he did the time before.
@Robert Peffers
You may well be right. I think as well I’m reacting to the total constant sneering at and criticism of Trump whatever he does. And that’s interesting, I wonder if some people are the same about the constant whining about Sturgeon?
That Herald article is titled “Trump sides with Putin against FBI”. Which isn’t quite right as you’d expect, but it does remind me of 2007/8 or so when the head of the FBI tried to bully McAskill and Salmond into not freeing Megrahi, something which the FBI has no business interfering with, it’s Scots Law. He was of course ignored.
We Scots as a contrary people don’t like being told what to do, what to think, who to believe. There must be some strategy in that somewhere, for winning Indy Ref 2.
Heard a commentator a while back talking about US foreign strategy.
He talked about the competition between the 3 superpowers and the close relationship between Russia and China leaving America out in the cold.
The one thing you don’t want to be is the odd one out. Perhaps there is a strategy here.
in some of trumps interviews, he exhibits the symptoms of early onset of dementia.
perhaps we over egg the idea that he plans anything
perhaps he is the Chancy Gardiner of US politics and his only crime is of Being There
Trump is doing what he said he would do if elected. That is why American voters elected him. Even though the loser won, D’hondt. Trump is not a career political. That is why the US voted for him. They had had enough of them. He had better watch his back. The US warmongering military political cabel will not like it one bit. Filling their boots on human misery. $611Billion US spend that is totally unaffordable even for them.
The right wing militia, malicious, destructive ‘Press’ do not like it one little bit. Still spreading their poisonist muck. Just as well no one reads it or believes. It just does not add up.
The Westminster unionists still continue the downward spiral. How long can they go to muck up the economy. The disasterous, dangerous pagent continues unabated. To the guarantee end a GE for another shower of incompetents to regenerate.
Thank goodness for the SNP Gov needed more than ever.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Support rising every day. The Tory mess and debacle continues. What a complete and utter shambles. Just appalling.
China can get redress for sanctions if tariffs. They can appeal to the World Trade Organisation. To which most countries in the world belong. Although China is one of the most protectionist of them all in trade matters. Along with India and the US. Free equal and fair trade keeps prices down for consumers.
The EU has just signed a trade deal with Japan to keep tariffs down, EU 400million. Japan 120Million. The EU the nearest biggest market. That Scotland relies and depends upon. Worth more than anything, for good governance, trade and social Laws. Part of the fabric of society having good relations with European neighbours. The south are displaying deviant, distructive behaviour. Sanctioning and starving citizens. Deploding, decomposing and combusting by the minute.
I’m beginning to think we in Scotland are the most ‘stable’ nation on the planet.
I think that’s a fair comment.
I wish our neighbours well in their endeavours…to lose all the phoney credibility as a decent and compassionate country and reveal themselves for what they’ve always been, Tory voting plebs blaming ‘others’ for their own stupid mistakes and banking on their own press for decades, to set them up for what they’re in for with UKexit.
While we continue on our merry way to remaining pretty much the country that we’ve always been. (I don’t need to belabour the points; mitigation of br tax, removing ‘sanctions’ regime and in other policies that effectively have shielded the people of our country from the worst effects of Tory policies from WM)
It really is coming down to as described atl: (everyone else in) Scotland versus WMTories (inc. branch office).
We voted 62% Remain without most people knowing what’s devolved or reserved. That says something about us as a country. I think we are genetically programmed tae know what’s not good for us when it comes right down to it. Stable geniuses aw ae us. And so it will prove…
But he’s only goat wan button oan his remote…the big red wan…smirk
Given the gravity Ofcom places on tv production team tweets what do they make of BBC .Radio Scotland GMS non reporting of last night’s amendment by SNP to give Scottish Parliament a say on Brexit White Paper and Labour’s abstention.
The FBI is a quasi illegal operation which has been destroying the world economy. CIA collusion. Watch the ‘witch hunt’ develop over the pond. No wonder the US electorate is raging. Lies, Secrets and video tape breaking every rule and law in the book. Most of them could end up in prison for duplicity, certainly out of a job.
The FBI and CIA finally being held to account for their illegal surveillance and criminal behaviour. The total illegal US surveillance of the world. It is a disgrace. They do not like it one little bit. The FBI/CIA being held to account for their illegal behaviour and criminality. They do not like one bit of surveillance or investigation back. Master criminals who were getting away with it. Not any more. Breaking US Law with impunity and costing $Billions. $Trns in debt. The US war machine. Now in doubt.
Proud Cybernat @ 1:22 pm, yesterday.
‘…Only 72% of SNP supporters? Are you sure they really were SNP supporters? Bonkers.’
This is a part of our complication. For example, I know two people who switched from Labour to SNP in 2007, they voted No in 2014. I know (knew sadly) a fellow who regarded himself as a ’90 minute Unionist’ on a Saturday at Ibrox, worked hard his whole life and had no time for the spongers of the World, therefore, he voted Conservative all his life – he voted Yes in 2014.
It ain’t no black and white….problem is, and will be, the Unionists and the MSM know this, which is why we remain defeated thus far.
Never, ever, underestimate their cunning.
If we are going to get into a knife fight…..bring a knife.
‘Ofcom criticised for decision on Alex Salmond Show.’
link to thenational.scot
…………………………………
‘Tory MSP’s tweet about National front cover comes back to bite.’
…”One of those to take a swipe was Tory MSP for Glasgow Adam Tomkins, who tweeted that our story showed that “science fiction still dominates one half of Scottish politics”.
link to thenational.scot
with tongue firmly in cheek
I suggest, because I haven’t heard this so far and given all the football mania, remain a little surprised that it hasn’t yet been proposed, anyway…
A re-run of the Brexit referendum…….with the result ‘aggregated’ with the first vote….
(and step back…..)
The warmonger Obama is coming to Scotland to be feted. Spent $611Billion on the military to kill and maim millions. To keep the US political elite in the extravagant luxury it demands, The hypocrisy abounds. Some charity, Costing the world millions of lives, destitution and misery. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Trading on misery. The total cruel hypocrites. ‘Charity’. They are making money out of it and paying no taxes. Sanctioning and starving people. The US military war machine supported by the Obama personal donations. To keep them rolling in it. At the trough. Totally disgraceful.
Whether it’s a weakness or an evil in Trump, recognising Jerusalem was disgraceful idiocy.
The very concept of his wall to keep out Mexicans, and the derogatory way he went about getting them to pay for it, was a toe curling bigoted shame upon America.
His travel bans on Muslims and the racist, xenophobic ideology that drove it, were another stain upon America, and conflated bigotry, mistrust and hatred and emboldened the far right NeoNazi’s and KKK.
His conduct with Iran’s nuclear deal was despicable too, but Trump is a man who is almost certainly not in the pocket of the Russians as his enemies allege, but certainly is in the pocket of the Israelis, but nobody will dare to say so.
His attitudes towards Environmentalism is unravelling decades of progress, whether it’s small scale incompetence like the SSI sand dunes on his golf course, to tearing up the Paris Accord on Climate Change.
Trump has also denied access to healthcare for many less well off Americans, and demonised the whole concept of helping the needy.
Trump is dangerously reckless, not just risking Nuclear war with North Korea, but launching over 50 cruise missiles on Syrian / Russian targets on the flimsiest, highly suspect evidence that Assad was responsible for a chemical weapons attack. The man with his finger on the big red button proves himself a trigger happy idiot.
I have a personal thing about corruption and jobs-for-the-boys nepotism and it truly disgusts me the way Trump will hire and fire people in high office with great integrity and see them replaced with Trump’s pals or even family members. He normalises corruption.
Trump is single handedly destroying America’s values and the way America liked to see itself as the global standard bearer for freedom, tolerance, stoicism and strength. The plaque on the State of Liberty, the icon on America reads “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”
This man Trump is a dangerous and reckless imbecile. Even the good that he does, the promises he keeps, bringing back jobs and hope the US rust belt, keeping his word and challenging outdated convention, it all seems contrived and stinks of the worst kind of disingenuous populism. It all seems like sugar coating for a very bitter pill.
Trump can rattle out promises like a machine gun about a Trade Deal to save the skin of Theresa May’s Brexit, but a Trade Deal with America should properly take years of difficult negotiating to agree, not just a spur of the moment nod and a wink from Trump. The Tories have placed the UK over a barrel with Brexit and need a shotgun wedding to Uncle Sam before the bump begins to show. It just isn’t going to end well.
Do I approve of the anti-Trump hysteria? Probably not. But as witch hunts go, for once there does seem to be a bona fide witch involved.
Breeks
Don’t forget the middle word in Jerusalem
@Confused
An interesting contribution, I’ve been gradually coming to a similar view myself.
Oh, Trump is a brash US billionaire for sure, but he is no idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing. It does seem as though the US is at a major cross-roads in its history and the old US v Russia ‘game’ is possibly no longer affordable – I think they now identify China as the major threat to previous dominance and the Chinese know it – remember Obama in Beijing ?
@ Boris at 1:08am ……. ‘Jackie Baillie says: ”Only Labour will take the radical steps to close the pay gap for good, like a real living wage and forcing companies to publish pay. If companies think a woman is worth a lower wage than a man then under Labour, we’ll force them to admit it.”
Jackie Baillie has some BRASS neck. Not only did the Labour Party in Scotland ensure that the SNP would not get control over employment law (Smith Commission 2016 – the Labour party stated that financial and economic matters including monetary policy, currency, regulation, debt management and employment law should remain reserved to Westminster) they, the Labour controlled councils in particular in Glasgow, did their UTMOST over many decades to prevent women in Scotland from getting equal pay with men: LONG before 2005.
You only hear now of the cases latterly that succeeded, some having dragged on for ten years, with the SNP having to fork out to resolve them, however there were many such cases for example Wallace and Marshall that went all the way to the House of Lords … and lost. In no small part to the fact that Derry Irvine the Lord Chancellor was the Presiding Officer of the House of Lords and Tony Blair’s VERY good friend at that time.
Not only did they not win their cases – many of the test cases lost their jobs (because their employer was bealing at them) through bullying and harassment, and in fact were warned at Glasgow Tribunal from the onset that this is what would happen to them by the Scottish Councils QC Ian Truscott.
Nicola Sturgeon should sort Baillie out at the next FMQ’s. Get right into her ribs and, eh, the BBC / STV should report on it.
link to caltonjock.com
Clinton started the Russian witch hunt with a false, fake document. The Skripal warmonging liar manufactured dirty dossier. Now disappeared. Conveniently. Not allowed to tell their story. A ‘D’ notice put on the proceeding. There would have been another full blown war going on right on the Russian border. Led by Johnstone that ignorant imbecile warmonger. Now resigning from the Brexit mess. The State of it.
The Saudi agent funded by Saudi money to try and start war world 111 and just about succeeding with the human misery. Millions killed and maimed. The most despot, absolute monarchy in the world. Misogynistic, racist, bigots and murderous like no other. Saudi (33million) $66Billion military spend. The highest (pro rata) in the world. Liars hypocrites and terrorists. An absolute scandal. In cohoots with the Israel apartheid military machine supported indirectly with Saudi collusion. The liars, cheats and terrorists. Now collapsing their economy. Their manic fevour now imploding.
The last dirty dossier the excuse for the illegal wars. Still occupying Europe with the misery it caused. Bombing and maiming millions of people out of their homes and security. The Brexit scandal as a result. Costing &Billions and destroying people’s lives. Sanction and starving people. Their basic human rights. Blair and Bush should be in prison for what they have done. The Brexit ness destroying people’s lives. People in the UK being deported illegally. Or detained for years without any just cause. A piper just deported from Scotland for no reason. Just for paying a visit. The Scottish courts trying to put a lid on the injustice.
Boris @1:08
The level of this argument astounds me. Take Wimbledon. In an effort at ‘equality’ the ladies are now paid the same as the men.
The men though, must play the best of five sets. This is not an opinion, but a mathematical calculation. The men now work longer for the same pay – ergo, less ‘per hour’. I can hear the nutter now, screaming for my heart on a plate.
Now, of course we have no real sympathy for people who wear watches worth around $700,000, but it is an indication of the madness of the direction the mythological gender pay gap crusaders are taking.
BBC News today: Scottish oil and gas production rising, now at a five year high, as exploration goes down (always got to get the bit in) and England is running out of water.
Our clean, pure water, one of our many lucrative resources, is probably worth more than our oil and gas. If not now definitely will be as time goes on. Look out for canals appearing all over Scotland running towards the border.
link to norrie.wordpress.com
Breeks@7.39
Have a look at “Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land” on youtube, and if you can find it “The Occupation of the American Mind” there are some trailers on youtube for the latter, but the full documentary for “PP and the PL” is available.
Remember the last GE. The first minister made a hash if replying to a nurse who asked why she had to go to food banks to suppliant her income. This was devolved matter. We were voting for members for Westminster who do not vote on Scottish devolved NHS. Why was that question put to the FM in the first place.. On a side how many nurses in Scotland attend food banks?
U might think that with the Tory government in melt-down & the aftermath of the Trump-ed up catastrofuck that Scotland’s alleged journalists would be spoiled for choice for a headline?
“Haud the Front Page!” the Record’s scoop features a fat wummin bitten by bedbugs!
Quite the day yesterday.
An American pres has an epic car crash summit and press call.
link to twitter.com
link to archive.is
A Prime Minister caves on Brexiteer amendments rather than see a premature end to her tenure (see under strong armed).
link to archive.is
Commons votes descend into a game of thrones backstabbing contest.
link to twitter.com
And the SNP in attempting to protect Scotland’s interests were (again) treated with utter contempt by opposition benches.
link to twitter.com
That was yesterday. Today starts with EC report finding vote leave broke campaign rules and have been referred to the police.
link to archive.is
And no, whether they broke the law or not? It won’t stop the Brexit process. Breaking purdah rules didn’t reverse 2014s result being a heads up there. Pretty much institutional carnage out there as they almost literally eat each alive. Also? Popcorn sales futures continue to climb.
Your daily reminder that you can change this up for a bit of peace if you really felt like it. That lifeboat is still there as and when you need it.
Just sayin’ like. 🙂
The nurse involved champagne lifestyle was ultimately exposed as a Labour stooge. The deception did not get them very far. In fact the backlash exposed their duplicity, lies and greed. .
The Nicola and the SNP have increased the NHS staff wages, immediately, and continued to fund the SNHS properly. In spite of financial restraints. The SNHS could be funded more and be even better. Except Westminster unionists continual attempts try to ruin the Scottish economy and waste Scottish taxpayers revenues.
Yesterday the headlines were totally irrelevant. So irrelevant people don’t even remember them. They just do not buy into it. They really are a disgrace. Why they bother? Just a waste of paper. The non Dom tax evaders should not even be in charge of the Press. Total illegal manipulation by Westminster control. Without a free and fair Press there is no democracy. Thank goodness for the internet. The international headlines are totally different.
Scottish politics are permanently sidelined. Had a look at BBC and STV politics sections and they say nothing about the vote against SNP amendments last night.
Our own broadcasters are not interested or are part of the campaign to thwart the SNP by not discussing them. STV have taken off Scotland Tonight at a critical moment of the Brexit discussion, thereby joining the BBC in not having a nightly politics programme. It is disgraceful.
”Don’t knows and don’t cares.”
If it’s any compensation, lol, we’re not on our own folks.
Dimbleby the wee fly man, Westminster lackey, has been a main player in keeping the Scots and Welsh in the dark for 24 years now.
When the wee lassie asks about broadcasting (lack of) in Wales …. and points out that ”even tonight only Leanne (Wood) lives in Wales – is on the panel.”
Dimbleby: ”Do you think there’s a shortage of news about Wales, in Wales?”
What a cracker, eh!
Leanne Wood sums up the situation – for them and us:
”Can I answer that point. It’s a really important point. There’s a huge information deficit about Welsh politics to the extent that ahead of the last National Assembly elections in 2016 a third of the people voting believed that the Health Service is still being run by the Tories in Westminster and a half of the people voting believed that Education is being run by the Tories in Westminster when that isn’t the case. Those decisions are being made by the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay. And if people don’t understand who’s making these decisions how can they make a fully informed choice when they go to the vote.”
Dimbleby: ”I’ve got to move on.” Aye right.
Question Time in Wales – 37:36:
link to youtube.com
Anent food-banks, the nurse was a Pacific Quay set-up!
@ ahundredthidiot, 8.27am
Bueller had a Muller but I switched it for a Mille
@ crazycat – the Electoral Commisssion pdfs you linked to download but there is nothing on them! Is it my laptop or the links?
Some great rants on this thread earlier on BTW. Thanks to Confused and others for a different angle on the Trump phenomenon. I must admit his defiance of the CIA/FBI hysteria about Russia is a bold step and I agree with it.
I still regard him as a vulgarian and enemy of democracy though.
With hindsight on Donald Trump:
In Britain, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said: “Trump’s election is an unmistakable rejection of a political establishment and an economic system that simply isn’t working for most people. It is one that has delivered escalating inequality and stagnating or falling living standards for the majority, both in the US and Britain.”
He added: “This is a rejection of a failed economic consensus and a governing elite that has been seen not to have listened. And the public anger that has propelled Donald Trump to office has been reflected in political upheavals across the world.”
All very apposite as the Donald continues to diss establishments both local and planetary.
He’s simply doing what he set out to do in his election campaign. What’s the problem snowflakes.
The days of hanging on America’s coat tails are over. Get an independent life.
Thepnr . . . . FMQ’s It’s the only chance tge FM gets to make her points without interruption. Whilst showing up the opposition lies
I see BBC interruption during FMQ’s at all. Brian Taylor only comes on at the end.
Voters should be encouraged to watch or listen. Beyond me why the SNP and the wider YES movement haven’t cot honed on to this snd promoted FMQ’s
KI
Aye as I see it Trump is vilified by American and UK media because He isn’t a warmonger. After he sanctioned bombing a Syrian airforce runway plus a supposed chemical weapons facility attack he was treated like a hero by the American media one commentator hailed him as ” A real president, growing into the job”
We wouldn’t be hearing anything sbout Russian prostitutes, or a tape of rowdy talk from Trump on a bus over a decade ago, if he’d sanction an invasion or two.
Mmmmm. Posted a few minutes ago and nowt appeared. Mind you it did have a few links so probably stuck in a filter or pre mod. (sigh)
Basically though, yesterday was pretty chaotic in politics land. Well… it was carnage on crack to be painfully accurate. Pres going mental. May caving to Brexiteer pressure. Labour backstabbing and abstaining on amendments by turn. The SNP being treated to yet more condescension by the locals. Oh, and leave us not forget today’s breaking story? The leave campaign were a bunch of cheating fibbers, which can be safely filed under WHO EFFING KNEW?
Yes, all of this does strikingly resemble a runaway train. One that’s heading toward a cliff, which also happens to be above a maelstrom, bottomed with jaggy rocks inhabited by starving wolverines.
How and ever, this is your daily reminder that you can change this up for a bit of peace if you really felt like it. That lifeboat is still there as and when you need it.
Just sayin’ like. 😎
‘Chequers deal ‘dead in the water’ after Theresa May accepts Brexiteers’ amendments.’
…”One of the amendments forces the British government to commit itself in law not to allow a customs border down the Irish Sea – a move that potentially rules out the EU’s ‘backstop’ on customs…”
link to irishnews.com
Don’t know if anyone else has posted this. I think it’s a Brexit MUST READ.
link to politics.co.uk
No deal seems the probably outcome now. TMay has accepted an amendment which makes it illegal for any government to have NI in a different customs zone. The ‘back stop’ must therefore mean the whole UK closely tied to the EU, which is not the plan.
Conclusion of the Divorce Treaty has now been made impossible, if the EU reject the accompanying outline of future trade which TMay has come up with.
We MUST all remember that for Brexit to happen in an orderly manner there has to be the Divorce Treaty, there does NOT have to be the outline future trade outline. However, TMay’s plan is that the future trade plan will prevent the need for the backstop within the Divorce Treaty. She has tied the two together, stupidly.
IMO, as soon as this all becomes obvious to the wide population, IndyRef2 should be announced.
@Petra
Thanks for that Irish link, it’s pointing out the same as the politics.co.uk one I just posted.
TMay is moving towards a no deal situation, by stupidity or by intent.
Another good one from Wee Ginger Dug ….
and his fundraiser, folks.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
“(Excluding Tory voters, the party that would still rather devolution had never happened at all, just 19% answered Yes versus 63% saying No.)”
If you are going to exclude Tory voters – on the basis that they all must vote in a particular way, shouldn’t you also exclude SNP voters under the same logic?
Second point:
“But in truth the public has never really kept tabs on what is and isn’t devolved, which is probably why Unionists keep getting away with promising to extend devolution as a sop to dissuade people from independence. Just over a quarter – 28% – correctly identified the fact that NONE of the powers in our question are in fact devolved.”
‘Probably’ ? ‘Possibly’ is a bit more accurate. If you say something is probable, you need a bit more to justify it. Equally I could argue that the SNP deliberately talk devolution down and don’t want the public to know the extent of devolution, because people might decide independence wasn’t necessary.
It’s all about balance.
Nicola’s getting on with the ‘day job’, calling out TMay …
link to mobile.twitter.com
The solution is in your hands, Nicola.
BBC Scottish politics page still leading with the Salmond tweets story even though the Vote Leave fraud story is newer. Watch how quickly it slips off the page…
Vince Cable and Tim Farron did NOT show up for vote in commons yesterday….yet unsurprisingly they have the audacity to criticise the SNP for not backing second EU vote.
FFS why do people not see that the Lib Dems are just tactically positioning themselves politically in the the Brexit middle ground….they know the Tories have the pro Brexit voters….Labour as usual jump off and on the Leave/Remain fences dependent on public opinion/mood, trying and once again failing to be all things to all people…no fixed position because majority of their MP’s more concerned with getting shot of Corbyn , who it must be said is pro Brexit, than voicing a firm party position on Brexit.
Meanwhile much shit is hitting the fan on Trump, Russian interference in Brexit and American elections, Pro Leave campaign, May’s political weakness, BBC bias ,Tory/DUP dark money and NI hard border via No deal Brexit and yet …………the rabid Brexit voters are STILL in see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil mode .
Absolute sham using ‘democracy’ as the excuse for this mess. Personally I am way past the point of ever accepting and believing Brexit won via democracy….to all of those REMAIN MP’s who hide behind this as an excuse to press on with this destructive policy…..well when the Brexit shit lands these same MP’s will need to take responsibility for their collective dereliction of duty. Hopefully enough Scots will agree that now is as good a time as any to get the f**k out of this EVEL generated mess….to NOT want to escape would be the biggest madness in all of this f**ked up chaotic shit fest.
May may think “NOTHING HAS CHANGED” but therein lies her weakness ….in promoting blatant lies in the face of the obvious truth in the damaging changes that will ensue in UKOK’s departure from the EU , UKOK’s supposed closer trade alliance with Trump’s America and the snakes in her party waiting to strike. EVERYTHING has changed ….including the fragility of her ‘precious’ union which if sanity wins will be no more.
Indy ref 2 is the ONLY safety net Scotland will have ….I pray that the majority of Scots will see this as the ONLY option to escape the downright obvious madness of Tory aka Con Brexit .
ps. Labour in Scotland can GTF with their current deflection tactics re GCC…..a shower of opportunistic chancers feeding yet again on contrived grievances to jump on yet another SNPBAD bandwagon.
@Petra … Wee Ginger Dug ….
“British nationalist parties in Scotland … are so terrified of doing anything that might lead to a growth in support for independence that they refuse to criticise or attack a British government for trampling over the interests of Scotland within the UK.”
… that is just soooo true. They should be fighting for the interests of their constituents, but instead they put their British Nationalism before all else. They are an utter disgrace.
@Confused says: 17 July, 2018 at 12:32 am:
“Wee Nikki, skilled as sver, navigates the minefield of the Trump visit”
Yes and?
” … Some of the over-the-top emotional responses from Yessers about Trump worry me – it shows naivete.”
Nah! It just shows you hold certain views that oppose those of Yessers – and you don’t like it.
” … Presidents are employees, they earn a wage, but its always the aame people in charge.” Well you got that bit right but you got wrong who is in charge in the USA and have been almost as long as there’s been a USA.
” … There is also a high level debate about America as an Empire or as a Republic”
And there is the flaw in your arguments for (a) The USA is no more, “America”, than it is, “THE United States”.
It does the exact same as Westminster that claims it has absolute sovereignty, calls itself Britain and brainwashes everyone to believe the bullshit.
America actually begins up by the Earths North Pole and stretches right down almost to the South Pole. The USA is just a wee bit of America and USAsians are immigrants into the Americas. Their southern neighbours full name is, “The United States of Mexico”, so the USA (note that like, “The UNITED KINGDOM”, use initial letters to brainwash the people that they are the only united states in America, and like the UK they claim they are the Americans and the rest of the Americas are not. There is a reason why there are similarities between the USA & The UK and they do have a, “Special Relationship”, but, thing is, it isn’t the one being assumed it is.
The real people in charge belong to group of old dynastic wealthy families who control the USA and most of the rest of the World, the Kennedys are but one such family but even they are not the real leaders. Here’s a wee list:-
The Bardi family of Florence (14th century)
The Medici family, as owners of the Medici Bank.
The Gondi family of Florence, financial partners of the Medici family.
The Fugger family of mercantile bankers and venture capitalists.
The Welser family, alongside the Fugger one of the most important families of merchant bankers.
The Baring family, owners of an important merchant bank in London.
The Schröder family, a leading Hanseatic family of Hamburg.The Rothschild family of bankers became the richest family in the mid-19th century.
The Goldman–Sachs family, owners of the Goldman Sachs investment bank from 1869 to 1912.
Such people really rule the World and they do so by pulling the right strings.
bbc – Have you ever promoted on call kaye and other type shows certain individuals who promote a unionist line? How come the same people from eberdeenshire keep appearing. How come bug man pennington appeared in the best seats with others to promote on tv the unionist cause? coincidence? how about the poor nurse from England claiming poverty? coincidence? how come on bbc Any Questions last Friday a Brexit tory councillor managed to get a question on air and others didn’t? coincidence.
I don’t believe in coincidences.
Sir Humphrey Hoo Haw and his civil servants in Whitehall (you know the guys who actually run the UK) must be getting pretty fed up uf working constant overtime and night shift trying to implement the minute by minute policy changes of these buffoon headed Tories
You know there are still people out there who think politicians run stuff (They only decide policy) and even at that the civil servants can tell them to change it if they don’t like it
The laughable ‘opposition’ could have taken May and the Tories down many times. They are colluding in the shambles. It will continue until their is a GE so the Tories can lose. There is no Democrscy at Westminster just a bunch of stooges.
Two hunters killed a lion (bad thing) and strung it up on a tree so they could be pleased with themselves
Twitter jumps into action and everybody wants these guys dead, they want them eaten by other lions, given blanks in their guns so when they shoot and nothing happens everyone can enjoy the looks on their faces when the lions tear them to pieces and everybody likes these ideas
But if you say something like that about a politician who by their actions destroys the lives of thousands or even millions of people somebody’ll send the cops round because you said a bad thing
Funny old world innit
Galamcennalath @ 9.41
I’m not all that sure May accepted the amendment about the Irish border from either stupidly or intent…. Well not intent to push for a no deal Brexit..
I think that they could be trying to hide behind N.Ireland!
They have said and keep on sayin, “Westminster will not put a hard border in N.Ireland”.What they don’t actually say (or only occasionally) is that Dublin or the EU can if it wants to.
I think making it illegal to have a separate customs arrangement in N.Ireland,is designed to force the EU to give the whole of the UK a customs union that protects Dublin and the Good Friday agreement or damage Ireland and force a border between it and the North.
They are using N.Ireland and the EUs obligations to protect one of it’s members as a route to a good customs deal for Westminster.Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland,why wouldn’t they,at this point they lose nothing if the EU won’t bite,but could gain a decent customs union for themselves and not just N.Ireland!
Is it just me or can I now see the whites of their eyes!
Is it now time to consider firing the starting pistol. We can’t allow this government to run away into recess until October.
Brexit – two years of changing the props on the stage while the script had yet to be written. In fact, it was never commissioned.
link to theguardian.com
“Moments later, Davis stood up to make his first contribution in the house since his resignation last week.”
“What Davis hadn’t banked on was his own intellect. Or lack of it. In making a pitch for wisdom, he unwittingly proved exactly why he had always been so unsuited to being in office. Not so much gravitas, as levitas. The best way to increase world trade was to trash our trade with the EU.”
“He was heard in near silence by MPs on both sides of the house. Under the circumstances it was the kindest response. Davis is now a stranger not just to government but also to intelligent life.”
> Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland
Another reason why there will be a no deal brexit.
The divorce bill can only be graded if EU is sissified with border arrangements. Ireland (as one of 27 EU members) has automatic veto too.
Also : if we get no deal Brexit then under WTO rules the UK will need to implement its own border.
The suggestion the NI border is not a problem for UK to solve is brexit fallacy.
Get your popcorn out – the house of cards is coming down.
@ Peffers
As Major-General Smedley Butler said in the early 1930s:
“I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.”
@Liz g
Yes, TMay is trying to force the EU to accept a customs deal for the whole UK which will solve the Irish border. All along (with Davis) they have wanted to talk trade arrangements early on.
However, that just isn’t the legal reality nor Brexit necessity. The Divorce Treaty needs a legally binding commitment to a non hard Irish border. In parallel there MIGHT be a non binding mutual statement on future trade/customs etc..
There is absolutely no way the Divorce Treaty could rely on this contemporary non binding statement of intent. And conversely there is no way a full Trade/Customs Treaty can be agreed, and made legally binding in the timescale. TMay must know this.
@gala
IMO, as soon as this all becomes obvious to the wide population, IndyRef2 should be announced.
————
treezas job was only ever to hold the tories together until the brexit deal was finalised then bring it back to the tory party and resign. job done as she blames the eu for its intransigence.
we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu +
a 2 year transition period.
the subsequent tory leadership election will decide where to accept this deal or no deal. no tory candidate will stand on a ticket of accepting a deal which puts a customs border in the irish sea. there can only be one outcome, a new pm supporting no deal (mogg?)
to that end, i’m not sure the ammendment last night banning NI from being able to stay in the cusm really changed very much, it would never have happened.
no one wants treezas job at the moment, thats why no leadership challenge has happened. it is also why those tories resigning have not offered an alternative proposal/solution. there isnt one. there never has been.
then the new pm will call a ge.
this will enable the tories to ditch any noisy remainers.
this will kill the libdem euref2 proposal on the grounds that the people
the tories campaigning on No Deal will force corbyn to chose, no more cake for either of them. if labour support the eu deal, corbyn will be denounced as a sinn fein stooge and will lose labour brexit vote. if he also supports no deal, he loses labour remainer vote.
either way, corbyns goose has been cooked, he is damned whichever way he choses.
snp will continue to campaign to remain cusm members, the only sensible option while ruth and dicky will find it hard polishing whatever shit that london deals them.
i think this ge will be the deal breaker, in the absence of cake, scottish voters will be forced to chose between very stark realities. this will polarise opinion. on the morning of the result, diehard unionist will wake up to a bojo or mogg PM and a no deal brexit, a resigning corbyn and libdems with no policy or anywhere to go………
then we launch indyref2
> Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland
Another reason we might get no deal…
Divorce bill can only be finalised if EU is satisfied on arrangements for NI border. Ireland also has a veto on the exit deal.
If we get no deal the UK must implement its own border under WTO rules. The alternative would be to drop all import tarrifs (which is another topic and means there is no motivation for anyone to do trade deal with UK).
The suggestion Irish border is a problem for EU to solve is brexit falalcy.
The only practical answer is a sea border.
However May is dependent on the DUP.
Get your pop corn out 🙂
@ Capella
Every time I go to the Electoral Commission website looking for these documents, what is available is different!
Back in 2015, for instance, I printed out about a dozen guidance documents, dealing with separate issues (with some overlap). I could not find those again last night. I did, however, open the ones I posted links to, and they cover the basics. I’ve just opened them again now (copying and pasting in a new tab, not clicking on the link directly) and I can see them – the first one has a bilious mauve cover; the other is blue-green.
There’s also this, which I could not find last night, but which I sent someone a few weeks ago and which still opens for me:
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
These have different document numbers, but cover a lot of the same material – perhaps they will work for you:
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
link to electoralcommission.org.uk
(I can speculate about why what I think is the same search yields such variable results, but that is probably counter-productive.)
Big Jock says:
Is it just me or can I now see the whites of their eyes!
Is it now time to consider firing the starting pistol.
———————
no, but it is time to take aim.
no one wants to be in treezas shoes, not even her tory rebels. she must be given the time to go to brussels and come back with whatever deal the eu is willing to give even if it sticks in her throat.
we need to give her the time to do that, a few weeks, indeed she cant wait for the holidays to decide this endgame, resign, be replaced or back the no deal option herself. either way, no deal is the only dog in the race for the tories regardless of who leads them.
a ge straight after this, is the most sensible political option for the london tories. no question
The BBC are remarkable, Minister resigns after thousands of kinky sex texts to barmaid, letting his wife and young child down, Brexit fraud and Bexit chaos in Parliament and their lead story is…Alex Salmonds pilot show tweets were from staff not the general public (which is perhaps no surprise as the show was prerecorded.) The Minister barely got 5 minutes of fame.
Boy do the BBC hate Alex Salmond and his programme. They are so nakedly agenda driven that it would make a Pravda programme controller blush.
Don’t expect anything to happen soon folks. he country may be on the edge of an abyss but that won’t be of any concern to the MPs, not when they have other priorities:
Like 3 months of “well-earned” holiday time.
You think I’m joking, don’t you?. 🙂
If Donald Trump were soft on liberal button pushers such as ‘gender issues’ he could bomb the hell out of whomsoever he liked and got away with it. Had liberal hawk Hilary Clinton been elected that’s exactly what you’d have got in Syria and Iran. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon & co would have gone along with that?
@HandandShrimp
Without irony the Westminster financed BBC lead the story with ‘The Kremlin backed channel’.
Only one of the tweets was actually from a member of the production staff. A friend of someone who happens to be a cameraman is not part of the production staff, no matter how much OFCOM want him/her to be.
schrodingers cat says:
Indeed. The Tories and media try to confuse the long term trade arrangements with the basic requirements of the Divorce Treaty.
The kind of future cherry picking trade / customs plans the Tories are banding about are nonsense and the EU won’t entertain them. However, that doesn’t effect the basic Divorce Treaty. It’s all smoke and mirrors to get them through the actual Brexit event.
jfngw
True but the story itself is utter trivia while they ignore genuinely important issues. They are undoubtedly corrupt. I would say Donalda is even more of a place woman than the previous admin team. Untrustworthy is their watchword.
Reith’s BBC mission was inform, educate, entertain, so they claim.
I think we can now agree it is misinform, propaganda, circuses.
The broadcaster is now stuffed with government connected people at the top echelons, it is purely a government mouthpiece (probably always was but most people didn’t notice as they had no other independent outlet).
galamcennalath says:
we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu +
a 2 year transition period.
Indeed. The Tories and media try to confuse the long term trade arrangements with the basic requirements of the Divorce Treaty.
The kind of future cherry picking trade / customs plans the Tories are banding about are nonsense and the EU won’t entertain them.
———————
exactly gala, this type of cakism was the basis of leaves victory in the euref, with bojo and farage telling everyone “of course we will get a good deal” it was so successful that both corbyn and treeza copied this tactic in the last GE.
but I think my main point is that the media, politicians and the voters are in for a severe reality check once the terms of the deal are actually known.
voters in scotland in this up and coming GE will know exactly what they are voting for and i doubt slab or ruthie will enjoy selling this message, the “this is what the entire uk voted for”
is becoming very tiresome and i dont think it will wear well with the voters.
i expect the snp to win back more than a few of the seats lost last year, seeing salmond, tasmina, angus robertson and john nicolson coming storming in back to westminster will give us all a lift and the start of indyref2 campaign a real boost
> we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu
This outcome has 2 twists
1) NI will get a special deal. Denying that to Scots will be politically impossible.
2) Without any agreement on NI then the divorce bill cant be settled and we get a true ‘no deal brexit’. i.e utter economic chaos, queues at Dover and a real Brexit effect.
Both outcome highly favorable for independence. I would even suggest only an EEA brexit (like Norway or CH) can save the precious union.
The Electoral Commission decision on the Vote Leave fraud shows what we need to learn for Indyref2.
Break the rules, do whatever it takes to secure a Yes victory, because by the time the EC make a judgement, it will be too late to change it.
@ galamcennalath at 9:41am …..
Yeah snap!
Have you ever witnessed anything like THIS absolute chaos? Unbelievable and it’s not over yet. What boo-boos are they going to come out with next? Or is it all just part of the no deal plan additionally leaving the EU to set up a hard border? Carry the can.
As the UK numpties continue to discuss the pros (what pros?) and cons of this they seem to have forgotten that the EU bottom line is that the EU isn’t going to make concessions for them. If they did they’d have a dozen plus countries looking for better deals, such as all of the goodies minus free movement of people. The EU is already struggling to hold it together to the point that the sooner we get out of this Union on the Brexit ticket the better.
We’ll get our Independence, thank God, and hopefully attract investors and companies here. Some from south of the border no doubt. We’ll need to because a failing little Engerland will impact negatively on us. Clearly botching up already to the point that I see (on Twitter) that more and more enlightened English people are cracking up and thinking of heading our way now. I say to them hurry up, get a move on, come here and vote alongside us.
……………………
Just watched a Tory politician being interviewed on the BBC about the Electoral Commission report (and the measly fine) and Vote Leave spending. He said he hadn’t read the report so couldn’t comment, handy response, and then ended by saying it doesn’t matter anyway as Remain spent more than Leave. It was left at that FGS. No rebuttal from the BBC interviewer. How on earth could that be? If that was the case Remain would be under investigation too. What a bunch of liars and chancers. Trying to dupe the viewers at every turn.
……………………..
On Daily Politics: A Lib-dem politician’s saying if they’d known the vote was going to be so tight Cable and Fallon would have attended and voted. It doesn’t matter anyway he said as the vote was swung by three votes, not two, and the Labour Party was to blame because four of them voted along with the Tories. You couldnae make this up.
Well now!
link to archive.is
Squeaky bum time Ms May.
@doug bryce
I think you are right, but since both treeza and corbyn have ruled out the sm/cu, the eu isnt even considering efta/eea or any of the cakism (corbyns “out of THE CU but in A CU”) bollox and the uk will not get an exception from this. out of the cusm means exactly that.
thing is, what will cushion the impact of brexit is the 2 year transition deal but the tories will not support the backstop position of ni being in the cu/sm. thats a fact
ergo, no deal is the only thing the tory mp’s can and will support. that is why i think another ge will happen. it will also silence those calling for euref2.
the people will get their say on the final deal, but at a ge not a referendum.
and the tories will win again
@ Abulhaq
But for that angel/devil mask switcheroo to be worth the bother, then public opinion on these issues would have to really matter in some way. It doesn’t. Continuation of conspicuous consumption is what matters, and unjust foreign wars never seem to put people here off their cornflakes.
Syria is still getting razed, and Afghanistan is still teeming with troops. The long game goes on.
Mountain Shadow says:
I wouldn’t go that far myself.
However, one thing is certain … the BritNats will take that approach to IndyRef2!
We can use it as a tactic against them. Keep an eye on them, and call them out.
We already know much of SiU’s money comes from people whose main residence is outside Scotland and they won’t even have a vote here. That is a disgusting attempt to undermine democracy. It’s ‘foreigners’ interfering in our affairs. We should milk it for all it’s worth!
As they say, ‘follow the money’, much of it is bound to be dodgy and dirty!
BBCRadio Scotland, J. Beattie show, just had Tom Harris, leader of Vote Leave in Scotland, on to talk about the EC Judgement on Leave campaign breaking the law on spending limits. No other parties or Member of In Campaign asked to contribute.
So much for balance, allowing one guilty side member to challenge judgement without interruption.
Guilty party allowed free reign to pour doubt and uncertainty on outcome.
Shame on BBC Scotland, no surprise there then!
Oops I see I botched up part of my last post? Should read, “They seem to have forgotten that the EU is part and parcel of this.”
Is everyone so sure that there’s going to be a GE before next March? I’ve got my doubts about that.
Tom Harris makes yet another giant Arse of himself on live radio with another ludicrous statement that *You can’t be an Independent country if you can’t sack the government* the implication being that the entire European Union and every country in that Union is not an Independent country because it’s RULED by unelected people
One wonders if the governments of the 27 countries of the EU agree with idiot Tom Harris
Within minutes of that statement on the John Beattie program the texts come in repeating the same bilge
On the same program Ross Thomson (y’know the mad Tory clown) claimed he DID want immigration for Scotland just not EU people, eh other people from somewhere else, from the other world, or something, but it would all work for Scotland, oh and NO he does not take direction from Ruth Davidson (he laughed) he is his own man (he stated)
I’m sure strong leader that she is and future PM material that the English folk think she is Ruth Davidson will be very pleased to hear that Ross Thomson and his Westminster pals couldn’t give a flying duck what she thinks
Ross Thomson was last seen stroking Jacob Rees Moggs knees and grooming his leg hair
There has been a whole series of fines for Tories cheating with their expenses, with the most recent £61,000 the Tory Brexiteers.
What is it people are not understanding about the Electoral
Commission’s objective in trying to ensure elections and referendums are not always won by the people with the most money?
The whole thing has become a complete and utter farce.
They might as well just tell these Tory Packs that they can spend anything that they like, but their is a £60,000 tariff on the back of it.
This is just like trying to put a multi million pound Formula 1
team out of business by giving them a parking ticket outside their HQ.
England has Fake News, Fake Democracy, and Fake Politicians all controlled by very real and rich fascists.
For Fakes sake we must become independent from this vile corruption.
The so-called united kingdom is a laughing stock. Scotland must disassociate itself completely, and quickly, from this pathetic, disgraceful union with England.
Time for Scotland to put the boot in, and get the hell out.
A hedge fund donated £90Million to Leave and made £300Million through the Pollster manipulated Brexit scandal. The only reason for Brexit so Tory Hedge Funds and their associates can tax evade and defraud public money. Everyone else have to pay for it.
Dr Jim’s last post just reminded me of someone I had kind of forgotten about! Ruth the Mooth, the woman whose Mooth seems to be zipped shut this weather. C’mon the BBC / STV see if you can find her, unzip and ask her what she thinks of the power grab, the Tory Brexit shenanigans etc. Ask her how Scotland will fare in all of this. Will her strong and stable big T Brexit means Brexit boss guarantee that our Parliament will remain intact, our economy won’t suffer and that there will be no job losses?
This’ll hit a nerve.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Worth reading.
Who were the Tories who criticised Nicola Sturgeon’s re-shuffle! “Everybody gets to be in the Scottish Cabinet!”
Contrast with Theresa’s cabinet!
Doug Bryce
“Both outcome highly favorable for independence. I would even suggest only an EEA brexit (like Norway or CH) can save the precious union.”
No it wouldn’t. Firstly because the EEA needs freedom of movement, which Brexitland won’t vote for.
But even if it did, the step then for Scotland in the UK in the EEA, to Scotland in EFTA in the EEA – is then a very small and completely de-risked one. No hard border.
The later step for Scotland (if we wished) from EFTA EEA to EU EEA could be done at our leisure
@Ken500 says: 17 July, 2018 at 10:28 am:
” … The laughable ‘opposition’ could have taken May and the Tories down many times. They are colluding in the shambles.”
So, Ken500, you still don’t understand the implications of what, “The Establishment”, actually means?
“The Opposition”, has never really existed as such. It has always been a sham to have the electorate, a.k.a The Subjects of the Queen of England think they have a choice but whichever party gains control of the government the government is subordinate to the elite ruling wealthy people we never hear about.
@petra
Is everyone so sure that there’s going to be a GE before next March? I’ve got my doubts about that.
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nothing about the future can be said to be certain because it is, well, the future
we deal in likelyhood and probability, eg rees moggs amendment last night was carried unapposed, no vote required. it is now illegal for ni to be left in the sm/cu while britain leaves the sm/cu.
this increases the chances of a No Deal result. for no tory pm or mp will ever vote for a deal where ni gets left behind. fact
i think treeza was only ever a caretaker manager tasked with holding the tory party together until she could bring back the best deal she could from the eu. not for the people or parliament to decide but for the tory party to decide
I daresay treeza could stay on as a no deal tory prime minister but in truth i doubt she will, her reputation is already shot and history will painter as the pm who failed to get a good deal.
the brexiteers already have enough signatures to bring her down, they are just waiting for her to complete the task she was chosen to do.
then the only canditates for pm will be those that support no deal, since supporting the eu deal, which leaves ni behind is now illegal in english law.
the new PM will want a ge to
1. ratify his premiership
2. clear out troublesome remainers like soubry, clark etal.
3. there is a good probability a tory pm on a no deal manifesto would win.
4. it would shoot the libdem fox calling for the people to have a vote on the final deal by euref2, by giving the people a vote in the “brexit deal” GE
5. it would force corbyn to take sides, he will lose eitherway
6. it could benefit the snp but i dont think the tory brexiteers care very much for scotland if indeed they think about us at all.
once treeza comes back fro the eu with what is left with her white paper, the probability increase dramatically for
1. no deal
2. a new PM
3. A GE
@schrodingers cat
I agree that a general election is almost certain. However I fail to see how it will resolve current stalemate in any way.
Likely another hung parliament with no consensus how to proceed 🙂
Eventually though Westminster will be forced to make a real decision on NI if Brexit is to happen. This is when SNP should start to move, as it will open a real pandoras box.
Doug_Bryce
hung parliaments are very difficult to predict and generally very rare. the numbers need to be very close
although another ge does at least open the possibility and could propel the snp into the position of king maker, just at the point where nicola presents her request for a ection 30 🙂