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Don’t knows and don’t cares

Posted on July 16, 2018 by

The Daily Record’s politics lead story today is a slightly underwhelming poll that shows 41% of Scots believe the Tories are carrying out a power grab against the Scottish Parliament, against 34% who think they aren’t (and 25% who have no idea).

Which seems a good time to round up the last results of our own most recent poll, and some slightly disturbing revelations about the Scottish public’s grasp of devolution.

Firstly, while the public may be deeply split on whether there’s a power grab going on or not, there’s one thing they’re considerably more certain about – that Westminster isn’t treating Holyrood with respect over it.

By a margin of more than 3:2, poll respondents thought the UK government was NOT treating its Scottish counterpart with respect to the allocation of powers. (Excluding Tory voters, the party that would still rather devolution had never happened at all, just 19% answered Yes versus 63% saying No.)

And they were almost as clear about who was most to blame for the mess.

(Predictably responses divided down party lines, with SNP and Tory voters polarising at the extremes, Labour ones tending to back the Scottish Government and Lib Dems being more or less down the middle.)

But it’s not surprising voters are confused, because almost 20 years into devolution the electorate still has remarkably little idea about what’s devolved and what isn’t.

Some of this can probably be attributed to a series of incredibly dishonest campaign messages from Scottish Labour, pledging to do things they actively fought to keep OUT of Holyrood’s hands, like employment law. (Although at least only one in five are swallowing their line on nationalising the railways.)

But in truth the public has never really kept tabs on what is and isn’t devolved, which is probably why Unionists keep getting away with promising to extend devolution as a sop to dissuade people from independence. Just over a quarter – 28% – correctly identified the fact that NONE of the powers in our question are in fact devolved.

But when we revealed it to them, large numbers WANTED them devolved.

And those figures become striking if you exclude Tory voters.

Minimum wage: 66%
Employment law: 67%
Nationalisation: 47%
VAT: 46%
Excise duties: 59%
Corporation tax: 54%
Immigration: 57%
None: 12%

Now, of course, you can’t just exclude the wishes of a substantial percentage of the electorate. But those numbers illustrate the observation we made a few days ago: that on almost everything but independence, Scotland’s politics are still pretty much the Tories versus everyone else.

More than half of Tory respondents didn’t want ANY of the listed powers devolved, and just 15% of them backed devolving immigration, compared to 41% of Labour voters, 37% of Lib Dems and 72% of SNP supporters.

(As an aside, it was quite interesting to note that only a third of Scottish Labour voters wanted to repatriate the power of nationalisation – two thirds of supposedly socialist voters would rather the railways were privately owned by foreign companies, or foreign state-owned firms, than by the people of Scotland, which surprised us a bit.)

Both the Record’s poll and our own, then, show that while Scots have a reasonable understanding of how devolution works in the abstract, the details are of little interest to them, which is probably why the power grab has had no discernible impact on support for independence even though lots of people are notionally unhappy about it.

For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game.

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    1. 16 07 18 14:56

      Don’t knows and don’t cares | speymouth

    423 to “Don’t knows and don’t cares”

    1. galamcennalath says:

      Apparently, in 2014 most Scots thought the NHS was a UK wide institution. And above we see most folks don’t really have a scoobie about what is devolved and reserved.

      We can justifiably blame BritNat politicians for muddying the water and their obedient media for assisting them. Though I have often felt Labour politicians in particular often haven’t a firm grasp themselves of what’s what.

      The Scottish parliament and government really should put more effort into educating voters. When the ‘executive’ was rightly renamed Government, a few other devolved elements should have been rebranded over the following few years. For instance NHS (Scotland) should have become Health Scotland well before IndyRef1. It is a Scottish entity being protected and run well here in Scotland by the Scottish Government – everyone needs to be clear on that! Any threat to it comes from WM and their far right policies.

      The SG/SP needs to take responsibility and credit for the work it does. WM needs to take responsibility and blame for the chaos and suffering it causes! The smoke and mirrors of BritNats is, of course, to avoid this.

    2. peekay says:

      Definately the fault of the Scottish media. How difficult would it be for them to publish a list every so often of what is, or isn’t, devolved? Although, I suspect this is deliberate as it allows SLab to get away with their constant bullshit

    3. Proud Cybernat says:

      Only 72% of SNP supporters? Are you sure they really were SNP supporters? Bonkers.

    4. schrodingers cat says:

      For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game.

      totally agree with this

    5. Marcia says:

      Some serious education is required. Last week at the pensioners club I brought up the topic of the NHS at it was the 70th Anniversary of the Scottish Health Service to give it’s original name. Of the 6 people around the table only one knew that the Scottish NHS was independent of the NHS in England – me.

    6. Giving Goose says:

      Some thoughts.

      I think there may be a latent desire for Independence in those who mistakenly believe that the Scottish Government has greater powers than it actually has…it’s an unconscious assumption. Perhaps it gives a clue to how to bring soft No’s into the Yes fold.

      I recall an American journalist, several years prior to the 2014 vote, writing a piece that stated that Scottish voters were conservative (with a small “c”), i.e. and to use a definition – “holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in relation to politics”.

      As for Brexit. I think there needs to be a period of very visible chaos, e.g. food shortages, social instability, economic pain; before more Scottish voters wake up to the positives that Independence brings.
      To those who disagree with this view, I believe these poll results display the lack of understanding with the electorate. If they can’t get devolution, then they will not understand the impending disaster that Brexit is bringing and therefore will not vote for or against an evidenced based future that hasn’t happened yet.

      The MSM will be pumping out propaganda by the bucket load to obscure the negative outcomes of Brexit. No amount of lecturing, persuading and leafleting is going to turn soft No’s onto independence until they feel it in their pockets and they can visibly see the chaos unfold (which the MSM will not be able to hide).

    7. Referendum1707 says:

      And if they haven’t got a clue about exactly what powers the SG does and does not have the question is – bearing in mind that we know that the bbc/stv/c4/c5 and 99% of the press are trying to keep it that way so that they can continue to blame the SG for things that the SG has no power over – why is it that the public is still largely ignorant about it?

      I think that would be because the SNP/SG and Yes movement have done virtually nothing to inform the general public about exactly what powers the SG does and does not have.

      One million updated WBBII’s anyone?

    8. Proud Cybernat says:

      As said above, the media are largely responsible for this ignorance of what is and isn’t devolved.

      I remember (vaguely) during GE, BBC interviewer was asking people questions about devolved issues. Devolved issues during a GE!! Whit? And when, back in the press pit, an SNP spokesperson challenged her on it, was told by the BBC interviewer, “It’s what people are interested in.”

      “Ah’m puir gonnae vote Layburr in the generalection so ah umm cos that BBC wummin said they’ll fix the schools that urr fawin’ doon.”

      “Aye – me annaw.”

      I mean – FFS!!

    9. Clootie says:

      This is by design!

      If Westminster can keep the Scottish electorate ignorant to the extent of devolution then they can mislead and deflect as needed….and the BBC and Unionist rags will be fully engaged in maintaining that confusion with useful idiots like Leonard providing the ammunition…given that he hasn’t a clue regarding devolved powers they are not having to work very hard to gain that information.

    10. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      That Labour vote being mostly against nationalisation. It points to the astonishing possibility that most of their voters, young and old, are fully submerged in – and aware of – the reality of their chosen party being merely an alternatively-coloured version of the Tories; or, that the poll needs to be taken again, because young Labour voters are usually a bunch of over-credulous deluded fu…oh, hang on, it’s because nationalisation looks a bit like national socialism, isn’t it.

    11. ROBBO says:

      I know Nicola wants us to reach out to these cretins but it just merely confirms my view that a fair percentage of Scots are politically ignorant and that as you say can solely be attributed to blindly accepting what the MSM tells them. It reinforces the need to re-educate them … I distributed a lot of WB Books the last time and we need to re-run that exercise again.

    12. Arbroath 1320 says:

      I think that now might be a good time to inundate the electorate with leaflets identifying what IS and what is NOT devolved to Holyrood.

      With the level of ignorance indicated by these figures regarding people’s knowledge of devolved powers I think as the Britnat media will never educate the people then we must rely on alternative means.

    13. Dr Jim says:

      Ignorance and apathy combined with stupidity and tribalism then you’ve got sectarianism and belligerence combined with dogma and anger

      What’s the answer? Yaay! Brexit!

      The Tory answer to making the world worse (but better for them)

    14. Smallaxe says:

      O/T? Essenpee Baad.

      Jackie Baillie MSP, Scottish Labour’s economy spokeswoman, said it was “shameful” that under the SNP and the Tories women were earning less than men over the course of their careers.;
      http://archive.is/Gt8lC#selection-1699.0-1705.82
      FFS!

    15. Macart says:

      Great post Rev.

      Seemingly the electorate want the powers of independence, but without it being called independence.

      Seemingly.

      As you say most people don’t keep tabs on what is or is not devolved. They won’t go to a government site and inform themselves. They rely on their political representation and their go to media. They’re not political anoraks, just folk looking for a quick, straight forward, info blast when they need it. The important bit is the information base. How they’ve been informed?

      What happens when/if they ever find out they’ve been poorly informed/misled by the pro Westminster parties and their media should prove … colourful. Though I’d rather it was sooner rather than later. 😎

    16. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Put a very large, clearly-marked link box where the facebook one is now, that brings folk to a page outlining exactly what is and isn’t devolved. Move the facebook one down and get rid of either ask.fm or rss. Just for the moment, at least, as it’s pretty important and shouldn’t be tucked away in ‘References’, for example.

    17. Dan Huil says:

      Don’t forget those 16 – 17 year olds. They are less inclined to follow traditional [British nationalist] media outlets.

      [Ireland remains crucial].

    18. stewartb says:

      This is a depressing set of results on several counts:

      – if someone doesn’t know what is/isn’t devolved then they can’t allocate blame/praise appropriately to the Holyrood and Westminster parliaments, and their respective parties of government – this is on top of any adverse influence of the corporate media and the BBC. If one’s priority is to maintain the Union and get the SNP out of government, this is a very satisfactory state of voter ignorance.

      – only on employment law and on setting the minimum wage do a majority want Holyrood to have the powers devolved – and only by a very small majority at that. Hardly a sign of a population keen on self determination in future! Rather it indicates that many still want decisions taken for them based on a majority in Westminster responding to what England wants. (Do these results not run counter to other polling evidence on higher levels of trust in Holyrood relative to that in Westminster?)

      – and why not 100% of SNP voters wanting more powers for Holyrood?

      Clutching at strays – could it be more nuanced, countering my ‘depression’? Namely that some people (perhaps some SNP supporters) see that more, but still partial, devolution of powers is no longer a sufficient solution i.e. they’ve had enough of gradualism?. If not this, and I strongly suspect not, then we really have an uphill struggle unless a ‘Brexit effect’ kicks in much more significantly and soon.

      Regardless of this, there is a fundamental need to ‘educate’ on where power actually lies, not only to prepare for an Indyref2 but also to ensure a properly informed Scottish electorate before voting in the next Westminster and next Holyrood elections if these are necessary before an Indyref..

    19. Doug Bryce says:

      Devolution has turned into a honey trap.

      Blame the SNP for having less pocket money to spend on Education / Health and Transport.

    20. Ken500 says:

      The SNP are still winning outright victory and support. Inspite of these reports and the MSM lined up against. They must be taking the right actions. People obviously want more powers devolved. Independence support is increasing. Brexit is a disaster. A threat to society. The Tory unionist appalling shambles.

    21. Lenny Hartley says:

      Re surprise that SNP voters not wanting more powers for Hollyrood, I know A SNP member that voted No in 2014 and will do the same in Indyref2 . Just likes the way they run Holyrood, and wont even think about Indy.

    22. I would be surprised if anyone outside Wings readership could tell you exactly what is devolved and what is retained,

      and that includes most politicians and all so called political hacks,

      just go and ask a family member or friend or someone at the bus stop to name three things that are devolved and i bet 99% couldn`t get three correct answers,

      BBC is/was supposed to educate,entertain and inform,

      instead it dumbs down everything to keep the masses from thinking, especially britnat Gary Robertson.

    23. Referendum1707 says:

      StewartB

      If there’s a “fundamental need to educate” (which of course there is, urgently) does it ever occur to anyone to ask why the SNP/SG and Yes movement isn’t doing any? And don’t just say it’s because the media won’t give them a fair shake, of course they won’t but there are ways of effectively bypassing the msm. (one million updated WBBII’s anyone?)

      Sick of hearing hopium addicts saying things like “wait till brexit hits” or “and we haven’t even started campaigning yet”

      Brexit will be extensively sugar coated by the media till it’s too late and the large section of the public who have porridge for brains will lap it up. After all, no one’s bothering to tell them any different.

      The No campaign doesn’t need “a date” to start campaigning, so why should the Yes campaign? It’s often said that it’s remarkable how support for indy holds up despite relentless anti-Scottish propaganda, it’s also quite remarkable how the british nationalists have managed to hold their line. Well actually it isn’t particularly remarkable at all when you consider that they’ve been allowed to have the information field to themselves.

    24. Dan Huil says:

      Not depressing. Surprisingly good if so many are deemed less that well-informed about devolution.

    25. Ken500 says:

      Women were earning less under Labour. Less nursery provision. Less social care. Introduced loans and higher uni fees. Held back people from uni – no funding. Means testing. Preventing people going to uni. PPI waste.

      Labour Illegal wars killing, maiming people and causing the worst migration crisis since 11WW. Empoverishing people. Higher unemployment. ‘Bedroom tax’. Sanctioning and starving people. Targeting women and one parent families. Brexit. Deporting people and detaining migrants and refugees for years. The useless Labour unionists in collusion with the Tories. Trident, Hinkley Point and HS2 a total waste of money.

    26. Josef Ó Luain says:

      We seem to always be waiting for some future “game-changer” or other that’ll finally ‘open’ the nation’s eyes to the absurdity of our political position. Personally, I doubt whether Brexit, of itself, will be that “game-changer”.

      O/T but pertinent, I believe:I was intrigued recently by a conversation I had with a self-described ‘apolitical’ acquaintance of mine. After giving me the typical: ‘I don’t like Sturgeon or the S.N.P.’ line, I asked him: ‘Why not?’ Well, he said:[The S.N.P. try to make Scotland out to be like something that it isn’t.]. I can only assume he meant that our Nationalist message and values bear little resemblance to his daily experience as a young, working-class male living in North Lanarkshire. He didn’t vote in the referendum, either. Will Brexit miraculously open my acquaintance’s eyes? I seriously doubt it.

    27. Josef Ó Luain says:

      We seem to always be waiting for some future “game-changer” or other that’ll finally ‘open’ the nation’s eyes to the absurdity of our political position. Personally, I doubt whether Brexit, of itself, will be that “game-changer”.

      O/T but pertinent, I believe: I was intrigued recently by a conversation I had with a self-described ‘apolitical’ acquaintance of mine. After giving me the typical: ‘I don’t like Sturgeon or the S.N.P.’ line, I asked him: ‘Why not?’ Well, he said:[The S.N.P. try to make Scotland out to be like something that it isn’t.]. I can only assume he meant that our Nationalist message and values bear little resemblance to his daily experience as a young, working-class male living in North Lanarkshire. He didn’t vote in the referendum, either. Will Brexit miraculously open my acquaintance’s eyes? I seriously doubt it.

    28. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, nice work kid! Jackie Baillie fronting a claim for equal pay for women when Slab’s Glasgow City Council spent hunners of thoosands in court fees to prevent exactly that!

    29. Hamish100 says:

      Lenny Hartley says:
      16 July, 2018 at 2:25 pm
      Re surprise that SNP voters not wanting more powers for Hollyrood, I know A SNP member that voted No in 2014 and will do the same in Indyref2 . Just likes the way they run Holyrood, and wont even think about Indy

      Apparently a North Ayrshire Councillor voted No in the 2014 referendum. She is no longer a SNP councillor.

    30. jfngw says:

      Power Grab or dark money the MSM has been almost silent.

      The fact that a TV programme use tweets which are not from real people – main front page story.

      It’s pretty obvious that fakery happens all the time on TV, does anybody believe that relevant subject tweets just pop up in programmes, or that the Question Time questions are not just picked because that’s what the production want on the programme.

      I remember working on a schools quiz show in the 80’s were the producer wanted a certain school to win and he made sure they did.

    31. Ken500 says:

      Labour. The McCrone Report taking the equivalent of £Billions out of Scotland and trying to keep it sercret. The ‘winter of discontent’, three day weeks and candles. The dead not getting buried and rubbish piled on the streets. The Trade Union leaders financing the illegal wars and Trident. Killing and maiming millions. £Trns of debt.

    32. Ghillie says:

      An awful lot of folk , thanks to the headlines of the gutter press (and that would be ALL MSM Broadsheets, news broadcasts etc) have absolutely zero idea of what is being formulated right under their noses.

      WE have to talk and talk and talk. Wherever we are and to everyone.

      Folk believe folk.

    33. harry mcaye says:

      I’m going to get some more leaflets done at instantprint.co.uk The link below (hope it works) is an excellent leaflet made up by Colin Dunn. You can find many more on his superb site indyposterboy.scot I know Stuart is on the case and we can expect another WBB in due course however in the meantime I think it us up to us, the indy grassroots, to do our bit. If a few folk can club together and put in a tenner, then 1000s of these leaflets can start going through doors. Be sure to do another one on the reverse. I think I might go for a Scotland/Norway comparison.

      https://twitter.com/ayewecan/status/1018204846216957953

    34. Jack Murphy says:

      Sorry for Off Topic so early on Thread but this 3 minute video from 21 year old Blair is heartrending.

      I’ll leave cheerful Blair to speak for himself about a homophobic attack on him.
      A brave cheerful man despite what happened.

      BBC Scotland video and report:
      https://tinyurl.com/ycy9y9ul

    35. Artyhetty says:

      ‘Take Scottish water back into public ‘ands’ said Ricky Leonard when he first landed his lucrative job as UK Labour branch spokesperson. Now, either he had no idea that Scottish water is NOT privatised, or he was very keen for the people of Scotland to be lied to about it, in the Scottish parliament. If he didn’t know, he shouldn’t be in the job!

      It’s very convenient for the Britnat parties to continue to confuse and con the people of Scotland about devolved matters, also EU citizens who had the vote in 2014, and other foreign nationals who might not know that immigration is a reserved power to Westminster and therefore Scotland can do nothing if the UKGov decide to deport them.

      I reallt want to see a good clear leaflet posted through every door in Scotland outlining what is devolved and what is reserved. I suspect it would be very costly to do though. Also would like SNP MPs and MSP’s to always point out in the media what it is they have the power to do or not, it’s always relevant.

      I had friends up from NE England recently, on the subject of immigration they were quick to slate the SNP who they do not like at all, for not doing more in that area for our economy etc. They could hardly believe it when I told them immigration is reserved to WM! Avid Guardian readers. It was convenient for them to slate the SNP, by not knowing. Same in Scotland.

      So, it’s where the SNP have a job to do, make sure people in Scotland are totally informed about what is devolved,and which powers the UKGov have over Scotland and the ones they are determined to hold onto, it’s crucial.

      Good to see this article today, thanks! Have shared.

    36. Helena Brown says:

      That people do not understand devolution comes with very little surprise to me. I am sure there are
      people here who remember Strathclyde, Lothian Region etc, and the workings of Regional and District Councils, also put in place by the Labour Party.
      If it is convoluted you can be sure they did it.
      If we ever manage to get Independence the first thing we need to do is simplify all the systems. We need to have classes from primary school onwards to educate our future citizens and heaven forfend, we need programmes to educate those beyond school age.
      Looking round the streets today I would say we must be able to scrape up over fifty percent, I doubt we can get sixty.

    37. Astonished says:

      Here’s my tuppence worth : when indy2 is called (soon I hope) the Britnats will return to project fear2. Which we should all immediately call PROJECT LIE.

      We can have project mcfear – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, prescription charges, uni fees, Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.

      I think it will boil down to : Can the bbc/msm liars frighten enough pensioners ?

      I am delighted to say I really don’t think they can.

    38. Artyhetty says:

      ‘Really’ not reallt, I blame this crazy kitten jumping on the keyboard.

    39. Ghillie says:

      Jousef o Louain.

      Then YOU fecking open his eyes!!

      THAT is our job!

      Each one of us who wants Independence, to talk to those nearest to us and hopefully convince at least one each.

      YOU know the score. Get it out there!

    40. Luigi says:

      Astonished says:

      16 July, 2018 at 3:05 pm

      Here’s my tuppence worth : when indy2 is called (soon I hope) the Britnats will return to project fear2. Which we should all immediately call PROJECT LIE.

      We can have project mcfear – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, prescription charges, uni fees, Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.

      I think it will boil down to : Can the bbc/msm liars frighten enough pensioners ?

      I am delighted to say I really don’t think they can.

      The YES campaign really needs to set the agenda this time – if we leave it for the BritNats and their media to set the agenda again, we will loose. So much time and energy wasted last time fire-fighting all the MSM lies and fake news distortions.

      This time we have to grab the narrative. Become outrageous. If we wait and respond to the inevitable attacks from the BritNats, we just end up on the back foot and loosing again. It is that simple. Not sure yet how we do it, but this time we have to go all-out attack. There is too much at stake.

      Attack. Attack. Attack.

    41. Effijy says:

      Please remember this broken promise among every pre Indy Vote promise that the Westminster parties pledged.

      Holyrood will be the most powerful devolved government anywhere in the world.

      As you now see, it is so powerful that Westminster claim to be able to quash out of hand anything and everything they do.

      For the hard of learning and Labour supporters, that’s No Power whatsoever unless you agree with everything they wish
      to impose on us.

    42. Luigi says:

      The britnat MSM are no friends of ours. We can expect nothing from them. However, there are clever ways of baiting them and getting them (unwittingly) on to our narrative. But we have to be bold, we have to be clever.

      Dare I say it…

      We have to be trolls. 🙂

    43. Proud Cybernat says:

      This time we have to grab the narrative. Become outrageous.

      They used to clear people from the Highlands & Islands off their land and send them to Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc.

      The Space Port in Sutherland will be used to send us to the moon, Mars and beyond.

      You heard it here first.

      Outrageous you say!?

    44. galamcennalath says:

      I’ve often thought that is voters we’re presented with a menu of reserved powers and asked which they thought should be moved to Holyrood, most folks would tick most, especially after a campaign to highlight the advantages and opportunities. We would end up pretty close to full Indy.

      Perhaps that is the way to campaign for Indy. Present a list of powers we don’t have and tell voters the object of the referendum is to get their agreement to have all on the list repatriated! Make it all about specific powers, but all of them. Play the BritNats at their own game, so when they promise some, we can promise all!

      An OT musical moment. You gotta love Scotland ….

      “wouldn’t be right if the rain wasn’t drowning the stones”

      … I love that line!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbDn7PNM0F4

    45. Phronesis says:

      Britannia unchained is an excellent concept –ditto Scotland the country, nation and the brand unchained from Britannia. When Britannia and Scotland become unchained from each other Britannia can take back control of Empire 2.0, its idle workers, benefit scroungers, the feckless class and further enrich the 0.1% who work really hard at tax avoidance.

      Scotland unchained has enormous potential as a small outward looking nation, charting its own course in the world and holding onto the principles of democracy.

      ‘Fewer Britons work. Those who work put in fewer hours .For the overwhelming majority , the financial rewards from hard work have declined because of higher taxes or perverse disincentives in the welfare system…All the evidence points to a decline in the work ethic in Britain…A decreasing number of people, working fewer hours are expected to shoulder the responsibility for an increasing minority who are willfully not working

      …in many ways Britain faces a harder task than Canada…It does not enjoy Canada’s resilient financial sector or its bounty of commodity exports. The windfall of the North Sea oil is starting to peter away…Perhaps the greatest achievement of Thatchers’s administration was less taking on the unions or liberalising the economy, but making Britain believe in itself again…Many of the world’s democracies liberal and free market insituitions derive their origins in Britain

      …British values helped to create the modern world…Britan has lost confidence in itself and what it stands for. Britain once ruled the empire on which the sun never set. Now it can barely keep England and Scotland

      together…Britannia Unchained is unembarassed about its support for business, the profit motive and the individual drive of the wealth creator’

      Britannia Unchained: Global Lessons for Growth and Prosperity ISBN-10: 1137032235

      ‘Corporate America’s actions suggest that most of the benefits of the corporate tax cut will flow to investors in general and top corporate executives in particular…contrast to the relatively small distributions of tax benefits to employees, estimating that the sum committed to buybacks last quarter could fund 6.8 million $1000 bonus cheques to workers every trading day’

      http://www.ft.com/content/c0e4c024-845c-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929

      ‘Media reports on the Paradise Papers have subsided, but no one has forgotten the collection of 13.4 million leaked financial files taken from a combination of offshore service providers and company registries, according to the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists’

      http://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/what-are-the-worlds-best-tax-havens/

    46. Proud Cybernat says:

      I’ve often thought that is voters we’re presented with a menu of reserved powers and asked which they thought should be moved to Holyrood, most folks would tick most, especially after a campaign to highlight the advantages and opportunities. We would end up pretty close to full Indy.

      Except that the powers are not sovereignly held – WM can take them from us again any time it pleases. Which is exactly what’s going on right now.

      ONLY sovereign independence can ever stop that from ever happening again.

      The WM Tories (backed by their Scots contingent) have effectively shown that Power Devolved is Power Retained. What’s the point of having devolved powers whent hey can be taken from you any time WM pleases?

      Devo is Deid.

      It’s indy or just STFU and forget it Scotland.

    47. OT I see the Brit nats are at it again sayIng a space station will be opened in Scotland in a few years time ??? This will be the same ones who said the frigates would be built on the Clyde remember the saying fool me once shame on You fool me twice shame on ME so don’t believe their lies and vows vote for FREEDOM

    48. Tinto Chiel says:

      Lest we forget:

      http://www.snp.org/pb_what_are_the_powers_of_the_scottish_parliament

      This is the kind of thing Britnats don’t want getting out.

    49. galamcennalath says:

      Proud Cybernat says:

      Devo is Deid.

      It’s indy or just STFU and forget it Scotland.

      I agree, but the reality is we have a disconnect where folks trust and value Holyrood, they want it to run much more …. yet don’t see the obvious next step of just making Holyrood in charge of everything through Indy.

      I’m not proposing Devo, just packaging Indy in terms a large majority of people already seem comfortable with.

      Independence can apparently seem a scary concept for some and lends itself to being portrayed as separatist, damaging, isolationist, withdrawing, etc etc. by our enemies. When it should be about building, rationalising, empowering, effecting, growing.

    50. Ottomanboi says:

      Re the proposed ‘UK spaceport’, what may be used for space exploration, hardware all Made in England apparently, might also be used for ‘defence’. Just more Westminster snake oil.

    51. yesindyref2 says:

      The Record poll at least backs up Rev’s poll, even if not by such a large margin. Disappointing to see the level of ignorance, not surprising as Rev says. Also disappopinint to see so many Tory voters as opposed to politicians, not wanting more devolution.

    52. Highland Wifie says:

      Despite always being in favour of independence and voting yes in 2014, I was woefully ignorant of the political landscape in Scotland back then. Thanks to Wings that’s not the case today.

      These poll results show there’s a rich seam of ignorance and apathy amongst the electorate ready to be mined.
      Older voters have had the benefit of a fairly stable political situation over their lives and I reckon no amount of info on the reality post Brexit is going to convince them of the peril we’re going to be in. But hammering home the issue of reserved powers and the limits of our devolved power will hopefully prepare the ground ahead of indyref.

      And yes it is up to us all to spread that information far and wide.

    53. Dr Jim says:

      Devolved-Reserved, Block Grant

      Deliberately confusingly named terms for those folk who really aren’t up on the subject, and that’s pretty much most folk, us geeky lot can forget that as well at times that it’s not even that people are stupid, it’s like algebra if you never have to use it you haven’t a clue what it is

      Block Grant for example, I bloody well hate that term implying England gives us something for nothing
      Reserved powers could mean anything, rather nice ones perhaps with good manners, it’s all bloody nonsense, Ach I’m away tae sharpen ma sword, they’d understand that if I took the lip aff their face and devolved their Arse to the coup

      Ahh our great Scottish language, what joy

    54. Dr Jim says:

      @yesindyref2 3.54pm

      Tory voters would see the rest of us devolved to the cemetery

      They aren’t nice you know, never met one who wouldn’t see us fight each other to the death for their entertainment and then refuse to pay up on their gambling debt

    55. Onwards says:

      “For instance NHS (Scotland) should have become Health Scotland well before IndyRef1. It is a Scottish entity being protected and run well here in Scotland by the Scottish Government – everyone needs to be clear on that!”

      @galamcennalath, It beats me why this hasn’t been done yet.
      A LOT of people think NHS Scotland is just a subdivision of a UK NHS.

    56. harry mcaye says:

      Artyhetty says “I really want to see a good clear leaflet posted through every door in Scotland outlining what is devolved and what is reserved. I suspect it would be very costly to do though”

      I posted at the same time as you did. There is a link there to an excellent leaflet that outlines what is devolved and what is reserved in a Q & A segment. Printing 1,000 of those costs £37 all in, 5,000 less than £60. Get together with other like minds and get out in the good weather. We might not cover Scotland but if we can get Yes groups out around the country, we can certainly reach many tens of thousands of folk.

    57. Welsh Sion says:

      Scott Mann (who he? – Ed.) has resigned from the UK Government.

      Time for all good Scot Men (and Women) to resign from this god-awful “Union” … 😉

    58. ronnie anderson says:

      Thepnr Thanks for the information on the court case

    59. Sinky says:

      None of this is important as BBC/ Yoon papers will go big on Alex Salmond RT Show broke Ofcom rules.

      Note the response: We also acknowledged that the questions read out by Mr Salmond were not ‘invented’ as alleged by the complainant and that only one of the six tweets and emails referred to Brexit, the matter raised by the complainant in this case”.

      One of the misleading invented tweets read out was “what does slainte mean?”

      The complaint referred to the inaugural Alex Salmond Show and it is pretty common BBC / ITV for producers to have “fake” / controversial tweets / texts read out to spice things up a bit.

      This is the extent of pettiness that concerns anti Indy people .

      As for Ofcom .. we know it is worse than useless when challenging BBC Bias whether it is over Indy or Brexit.

    60. Jimbo says:

      Hi Stu,

      is it possible to give a breakdown of the percentage of Tories/Labour who actually knew what’s devolved and what isn’t.

    61. yesindyref2 says:

      @Dr Jim
      Maybe I’m lucky, I’ve known a few decent Tory voters, a couple of politicians, and even one whose son became an MP he would have been proud of – didn’t stand again in 2015, but did run a few cross-party campaigns you’d have agreed with – not Tory policy ones 🙂

      They’re not all bad …

    62. Welsh Sion says:

      Just an idea (and probably already floated, so apologies if it has).

      Knowing that some Scots enjoy the odd tipple, could not someone come up with the idea of designing a beer mat with “Devolved Matters” on one face and “Reserved Matters” on the other?

      Where better than the local hostelry to have discussions on your constitutional future and have the evidence of what is already in the remit of Holyrood and what could be obtained on indy – the full gamut of powers now held by Westminster?

      I no nothing of the logistics nor the cost of such an enterprise. I’m only thinking aloud.

      In the meantime …

      http://www.parliament.scot/PublicInformationdocuments/ListDevolvedPowers0218.pdf

    63. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Dr Jim @ 1.37p.

      Doc you are bang on.

      Spoke to a nice gent today moved over from Belfast the union is strong with him. We were talking about our concerns re Brexit.

      He admitted Westminster has lost it.

      I offered Independence being the logical answer.
      He said we would starve under independence.

      When I pointed out we are actually wealthy he said I know but the Church I attend doesn’t approve of independence.

    64. Clydebuilt says:

      Quote the Rev. ” that while Scots have a reasonable understanding of how devolution works in the abstract the details are of little interest to them…..”

      IMO this is a failing of the Scottish Government, for the last two years all we’ve heard is “Power Grab” and “Constitutional Crisis” . . . No explanation of what has been achieved with the powers at hand.

      This is my favourite example , there are numerous more.

      Scotland’s beef herd has achieved BSE free status more than 2 years before England’s and Wales
      BUT I’ve never heard this stated by an SNP politician.

    65. ScottieDog says:

      Ok, In terms of Parliamentary machinations I am pretty ignorant but surely there should be a regulation in the Scottish parliament whereby the presiding officer doesn’t allow non-devolved issues to be brought up in debate.

      Failing that, perhaps we should all plead ignorant and write to our unionist MPs/MSPs about the above issues. Any replies which are misleading should be publicised.

    66. Ken500 says:

      The Tories are trying to take back devolved powers. Scotland revenues are still going to Westminster Treasury. Ruining the Oil & Gas sector (too high taxes when the price had fallen). Rulning the fishing sector. Dead fish being throw back for years instead of using bigger nets, like Norway. The farming sector Westminster illegally taking £Millions in CAP payments intended for hard pressed Scottish farmers. Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest CAP in the EU. Losing £Nillion in Scotland and thousands of jobs.

      Scotland has to pay interest on Westminster borrowing not spent in Scotland. Scotland has to pay £1Billion for Trident.More revenues is raised in Scotland (pro rata) but Westminster had cut the Scottish budget 10% a year since 2010. Over £3Billion. The Tories have cut investment in solar, banned wind turbine. Not invested in tidal power. Building Hinkley Point costing £Billions and less safe. HS2 a total waste of public money with no business case. Cut investment in rail in the north of England and Scotland which would have cut rail times throughout Britain. Leading to less flights.

    67. Juan says:

      We can bypass the press or at least co-opt them, by using the question to frame the debate and at the same time give an honest appraisal of exactly what we will be voting on. Last time the colonialists promised Devo Max and much more that they knew they’d never deliver.
      The question this time round should be “Should Scotland be a normal, self governing country or England’s colony?”
      I’d love to see the colonialist politicians and their propaganda outlets (MSM) Polish that particular turd. Vote to be a colony! Who would vote against being a NORMAL country.

      Those supporting Scottish independence aren’t Nationalists. We are simply DEMOCRATS seeking Democracy!

    68. Juan says:

      Oxford English Dictionary definition of Colony
      NOUN

      1A country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.

      The UK’s EU referendum has proven we are not an Equal Partner in a Union.

    69. Donald Bruce says:

      What I hearing from my English Brexit friends is the reason they voted to leave the EU was to take their country back! Ask them about Scottish independence they are against it seems getting country back does not apply to the Scots. When I challenge this their reply is Scotland does not have the politicians capable of running the country.. They have a strange idea of us Scots

    70. haudonthenoo says:

      Donald Bruce : They say Scotland does not have the politicians ?? Have they looked at Westminster ? Good god.

    71. Legerwood says:

      Clydebuilt @ 6.31 pm

      BSE free Scotland
      https://news.gov.scot/news/bse-negligible-risk-status

      What you won’t see or hear is this news, which contains a statement from the relevant minister, reported in the papers or on TV despite the release from the SG being circulated to the MMS.

      After all the publicity via opposition criticism of Derek McKay’s budget I am sure people are aware of the new tax powers of the SG for example.

    72. manandboy says:

      Brexit isn’t nearly over. Like a football match, predicting the final score is often premature and therefore ill-advised.

      The present and the future are invariably connected by the unknown and the unforeseen.

      I’m betting on Scottish Independence, even though I don’t know how we can get there.

    73. Craig P says:

      Re: reserved powers. Next election, for no extra cost, a candidate with an interest in accuracy could list what was relevant on their campaign leaflet.

      E.g. candidate x handily highlights that the Westminster election is about tax, economy, war, immigration, foreign relations and not about health, schools, roads, or bins. Candidate y bangs on about school catchment areas and looks like an idiot.

    74. frogesque says:

      Weird O/T thought.

      How long before a dishwater “perfume” company start pushing an aroma called ‘Novichok’?

      Let’s face it, we already have Opium, Poison, Killer and probably a few more distatefull ones.

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      Brexit changes everything. If having one’s legal identity forcibly amended isn’t shitty enough, Brexit will undermine living standards of Scots in general, and Scots women in particular. Scotland voted against Brexit, so acquiescence with Brexit would confirm Scotland’s crippling lack of self-confidence and represent a failure to support the principle of universal human rights.

      Brexit is bad, mk.

      ‘Brexit means Brexit’: the British perspective

      At one level, everything in the UK is now about Brexit. There is no area of public policy that will not escape significant changes post membership. The balance of competences between the four home nations will be recalibrated. Moreover, the Great Repeal Bill opens the door to a substantial increase in executive power vis-à-vis Parliament. No political party or politician can avoid the issue.

      http://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-means-brexit-the-british-perspective/

      Prelude to Brexit: Euroscepticism in Great Britain, 2014
      https://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/sociology/research/rc33-conference/25_guth

      The politics and economics of Brexit
      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13501763.2018.1467957

    76. If broadcasting was devolved the Scottish Government could set up a self funding Scottish Broadcasting Service,

      using the Hypothecation of the tax from the £300 million raised in Scotland from the Broadcasting Tax (tv license),

      with a dedicated SBS we could educate,inform and entertain instead of having the BBC misinform,dumb down,lie,make twee cozy little england costume dramas,lie and lie and lie,

      and we could kick/boot out the britnat propagandists than infest the north britnat BBC.

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      @Luigi says: 16 July, 2018 at 3:20 pm:

      ” … Not sure yet how we do it, but this time we have to go all-out attack. There is too much at stake.
      Attack. Attack. Attack.”/>

      Good luck with that, Luigi, – – – you’re going to need it. Thing is that neither the Westminster Establishment nor the SG set the agenda and neither do the three unionist or the independence supporting political parties – because it is the MSM, SMSM and the broadcasters who set the agenda and the sad part is that the media is not only influenced by the Westminster Establishment but owned and paid for by them.

      When the leader of the Labour Party accountancy unit in Scotland can get away with getting to his feet in the Holyrood parliaments FMQ’s session week in and week out and exhibit, before the entire hostile to Scotland media, and any interested members of the public that he hasn’t a clue of what actual powers the parliament he is elected to serve in has, there is only one conclusion – how can the Labour Party in Scotland hope to ever become the Scottish Government when they haven’t got a clue what that job entails?

    78. Gary says:

      “The Tories Vs Everyone Else” I interesting. But I think this is not the ACTUAL reality.

      Personally I think that Scottish political opinion is hardening. During the Referendum in 14, and then afterwards in GEs etc the general picture has been Indy Vs Unionist with ‘Don’t Knows’ caught in the middle.

      There’s been a move where, instead of perhaps voting Labour or LibDem as they may previously have done, those who were strong Unionists have become inexorably drawn to their ‘natural home’ of ‘The Conservative & UNIONIST Party’ (The capitals are mine, due to the fact that this part of their title has become ever more prominent)

      Publications like ‘The Telegraph’ did their utmost to show that the Indy vote was to be split down religious lines in 14. An effort has been made to ‘dogwhistle’ the extremist Orange vote by Davidson (shame on her) and Labour’s BEST leader was Dugdale, who, after the event was (to be charitable) inexperienced as a politician.

      Now I see that London Mayor Khan is trying to characterise the wish for independence as ‘racism’ Perhaps he’s trying to get some of the Orange vote back? More likely they’d consider voting Indy if they really DID think it was racist (but I’m being facetious)

      So, finally, I guess what I’m saying is that it is not the right wing, it is specifically religious bigotry (and what they are told to think) that is going on here.

      We need to aim at those who ‘Don’t Know’ how they’d vote. There ARE those who vote Tory who are ACTUALLY right wing and NOT Orange but the ‘resurgance’ of the Tory vote just shows the depths to which all concerned will sink to gain their aims.

      Remember, the extremists can’t be persuaded because, although they know what they think, they don’t know WHY they think that…

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      I have to say this at the risk of being highly unpopular – yet again – with fellow Indy supporters.

      I can’t believe that some of the people who would protest against the BBC, withhold their licence fees, talk about the BBC bias against Indy (yes, it is biased against Indy, the SNP and even at times Devolution and Scotland herself), can allow the BBC which is dutifully reported in much of the media, even including The National, about Trump, can be so taken in by the propaganda that has existed against him since day one of his election bid.

      Is he a saint, no, but do you truly believe all the junk that the BBC dredges up on its one-sided attack on him? Like Ukraine for example, pre-Trump, where it’s all those pesky Russians not allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO and have missiles and anti-missile missiles and anti-anti-missiles missiles missiles based on its soil scant miles from its border with Russia and therefore within easy reach of Moscow itself?

      And does anyone think that the US “establishment” is really any different from the UK “establishment”?

    80. harry mcaye says:

      No comments on my leaflet posts. This is just a big talking shop, isn’t it? When someone suggest actually doing something…tumbleweed.

    81. Lenny Hartley says:

      Posted before but the post has disappeared, aint seen anybody commenting on this poll by survation ? Done for Dr/Mirror end of June with 16/17 year olds included. They obviously didnt like results and reran with 16/17 year olds excluded and got the 49% for ayes last week.

      If there was a referendum tomorrow with the question “Should Scotland be an Independent country?”, how would you vote?

      Yes – 54%

      No – 46%

      Strange thing there was also a should there be an indy2 ref and the results were 45% against and 42% for , ask the same folk how they would vote and its 54% yes, go figure.
      Full datacsets on Survation web page my stupid Ipad wont copy the url so can archive or even post the link here, it wasvon my previous post so if it pops up you can get it there.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      I think that’s the poll from June 2016, after the EU Ref. Sounds like it.

    83. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Clydebuilt at 6:31 pm.

      You stated,
      “Scotland’s beef herd has achieved BSE free status more than 2 years before England’s and Wales
      BUT I’ve never heard this stated by an SNP politician.”

      Happy to help you out. This quote is from the link below:-

      Rural Economy Secretary Fergus Ewing has announced the Scottish Government will consult on plans to apply for BSE Negligible Risk – status – a move which could unlock new export opportunities for Scottish red meat and add value throughout the red meat supply chain.

      Scotland has been BSE-free since 2009, has had no cases of BSE in animals born since 2005, and is now eligible to make an application for BSE Negligible Risk status as a region of the UK.

      Speaking at the Royal Highland Show yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary said: “Our premium produce is world-renowned but there are countries to which we are currently unable to export Scotch Beef and Scotch Lamb. Achieving BSE Negligible Risk status could help open up markets across the world for these premium products, and potentially reduce waste and inefficiencies in the supply chain worth more than a million pounds.

    84. Thepnr says:

      O/T For anyone interested the Cross Border Trade Bill amendments are just about to be voted on in Westminster.

    85. jfngw says:

      Read the OFCOM Alex Salmond complaint decision. It’s interesting in the fact that they find it breached rule 2.2 as it found viewers would have believed the tweets were from the public (only two were from anyone with any connection to the programme, but being a friend of someone on the freelance crew or having been employed in the past by Mr Salmond, not on TV show, also seems to make you part of the production staff according to OFCOM).

      This raises an awkward question for Question Time and various other BBC programmes. Question Time often presents people as ordinary members of the public but are in fact party activists (normally Tory but no doubt others also). Plus the regular appearance if ‘independent’ think tanks spokespersons without revealing the nature and funding of these organisations.

      To quote OFCOM, “Factual programmes or items or portrayals of factual matters must not materially mislead the audience”. The BBC is continually in breach of these rules.

      This was obviously a political motivated judgement as the compliant (only one) was regarding a brexit tweet. They did not uphold this compliant but then decided to investigate all the tweets that had nothing to do with the original complaint.

    86. Thomas says:

      They probably know little of the do’s and dont’s of devolution, because the BBC and the MSM wont report any it for fear of turning even more people against the union.

      Its Bias propaganda by omission. It sickens me that people know so little of what is going on. The independence movement is really up against it with nearly all the MSM against independence and completely ignoring the terrible effects of the union on Scotland. This poll just goes to prove the people are deliberately being kept in the dark.

    87. Thepnr says:

      @harry mcaye

      I’m pretty sure that just about everybody reading Wings and who read your post sees your suggestion as a great idea. I know that I do and honestly I admire the fact that you are one of the few that will put in the effort.

      So I’ve made a promise to myself and that is that I will get 1000 leaflets printed and get them through the doors in my local area. You’re right if just 1000 of us could do that then that is a 1,000,000 leaflets and there are only just over 2,000,000 housholds in Scotalnd.

      Many hands make light work and people like yourself and all the other volunteers manning stalls or Yes shops/cafes and delivering leaflets will be the ones that will ultimately make the difference between winning and losing.

    88. twathater says:

      @ Astonished 3.05 pm I like this

      We can have project EXPOSED LIES – VOTE NO this time and you are guaranteed- a reduced pension, parking charges in hospitals, work till you die, £8 per item prescription charges, £9000 per annum uni fees, Sale of Scottish Water ,water meters , DESTRUCTION and sale of YOUR SNHS , Rees mogg, Johnson, Gove et al etc.

      As many have commented the ignorance of devolved powers and the restrictions placed on the SG by wastemonster aligned with the total whitewashing of the power grab by the usual suspects is IMO leading to a very unnecessary hard fight for independence , if Scots were REALLY TRUTHFULLY informed of the lunacy approaching and the impact it will have on their lives it would be a cakewalk

      Any leaflets have to be BRUTAL exposing the LIES being told by the brit nats and highlight the contempt Scotland is held

    89. Liz g says:

      Harry macay @ 8.44
      Well no it’s not just a talking shop Harry,it’s an exchange of ideas and opinions..
      I had intended is taking your plan to my local Yes group. But there was no really any point sayin anything unless they were going to go with it.
      You should always post your thoughts on what you see would help,they do get read and I would much rather read suggestions than the trolling!
      Keep them coming…..

    90. call me dave says:

      Clause 16 (new) by SNP gets the boot 35votes ayes to 300+ Nos.

      Jings it’s so antiquated this voting in the lobby. 🙁

      That’s it for me!

    91. Thepnr says:

      Only 36 people voted in support of clause 16 in the Cross Border Trade Bill for a whole list of “Additional regulations requiring the consent of the Scottish Parliament”

      An SNP clause of course that everybody else in parliament opposed.

    92. Patrick Roden says:

      @Thepnr and Harry Mcaye,

      Why don’t we get a list of names/volunteers and all chip in to get a better price.

      We each get 1000 leaflets and we all agree, what the message is that we want to put out there.

      I definitely think it would be a good use of our resources to put leaflets out encouraging people to ‘have a look at wings’

    93. Thepnr says:

      @call me dave

      Might want to stick with it for a bit yet to see if all the Brexiteer clauses from Rees-Mogg get through. First one is about to be revealed now and another later on Northern Ireland is importnat.

      Both these clauses if passed scupper the white paper that has been sent to Brussels according to Ian Dunt of politics.co.uk.

      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/16/govt-capitulation-today-could-all-but-guarantee-no-deal

    94. Patrick Roden says:

      Lets all start being our own media!

      Who’s in?

    95. Josef Ó Luain says:

      @ Ghillie Re: “my apolitical acquaintance”. I certainly hope you show more restraint and respect for those who’s minds you’re trying to change than you did to me in your unnecessary outburst, above. Getting people’s names correct is also crucial if you want them to take you seriously.

      Perhaps you in your wisdom can tell us all what it is exactly that underlies the tiresome “I hate Sturgeon and the SNP” routine we all know and hate. We urgently need to crack that one in order to have our case listened to, not to mention for the benefit of our personal and collective political education. By-the-way: my apolitical acquaintance will now be voting ‘Yes’. Job done.

    96. yesindyref2 says:

      @harry mcaye
      Leaflet looks good – but I can’t really read it! Anyone got a lonk? Or link, even?

    97. Thepnr says:

      @Patrick Roden

      Your idea is good but would mean a lot of work which is usually left to one or two people to organise. You will get a better price the more you buy but who is left to send individual bundles of 1000 leaflets all over Scotland?

      I think this is best done locally, ideally by the existing Yes groups, expanding on harry’s suggestion if there was a way to combine the funds of all yes groups together for the printing of leaflets then that might be the way to go.

      There’s no doubt about it though we could be better organised and that means being more effective. I think this stuff will grow, if you are a member of a Yes group then throw these ideas into the pot as Liz g above said.

    98. Thepnr says:

      Westminster in a mess, another government minister has apparently resigned.

      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1018963982126903297

    99. sinky says:

      Will BBC TV news report on Labour abstaining on SNP motion in HoC tonight for Scots Parly to have say on parts of Brexit White Paper effecting devolved issues.

    100. Dr Jim says:

      @Josef O Luain 10.02pm

      What they mean is *They fear Sturgeon and the SNP* and hate being shown they’re wrong it makes them feel small and instead of just taking it on the chin and being bigger better decent human beings about things,.. they hate

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      IF 1,000 A4 leaflets weighed 2 Kg max, that would be £2.95 second class from memory.

      We’re all busy with stuff, and it shows the value of people highlighting others good ideas or postings. I doubt I’d always agree with Thepnr on some things, but if he points something out as worth looking at, I just about always look, even if I’ve skimmed over other postings.

    102. Welsh Sion says:

      Thepnr @ 10:09

      Westminster in a mess, another government minister has apparently resigned.

      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1018963982126903297

      ______

      That would be Guto Bebb, the Minister for Defence Procurement. He is the grandson of one of the founders of Plaid Cymru (1925) and was the Agent of my CA in Wales (Caernarfon) before defecting to the Tories in 2001 as he did not agree with the Europhile policies of the Party.

      Stood as a candidate in many National Assembly and General Elections and defeated each time until he won Aberconwy at the 2010 GE.

      Has had his knife in a former Viceroy for Western Colonies (David Jones) for many years, despite both being Eurosceptics. (yet more scope for analogies of Tory rats in sacks.)

      wrecsamplaid.blogspot.com/2014/09/guto-bebb-david-jones-and-north-wales.html

      Have a good evening!

    103. Liz g says:

      Re Devolved & Reserved Powers Leaflet
      It might also be worth also highlighting the powers that will be taken back if Westminster gets its way ……
      Just a different colour and coded as Powers under threat sort of thing!

    104. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gary says: 16 July, 2018 at 8:16 pm:

      ” … During the Referendum in 14, and then afterwards in GEs etc the general picture has been Indy Vs Unionist with ‘Don’t Knows’ caught in the middle.”

      You are on the right lines, Gary, but not quite there yet. The entire history of Britain has had certain common threads that have run through it since ever humans recorded Britain’s history and the first to do so were the Roman invaders in around 54 years before Christ was born.

      There are several things about that recorded history that still apply today. The first being that the recording of it has always been the view of it by the South East corner of Britain that the Romans named Londinium. The second is that the recorded history always has a political slant to it that depends upon the particular version that becomes the official version.

      The Roman history has several different slants and the politics behind it are biased by the person who was using Britain as a stepping stone to power back home in Rome. It is not coincidence that several of the Roman personages that ruled over Britain were to become the overall Roman Emperor back in Rome, However, there are contemporary accounts that are biased more towards another would be Roman Emperor.

      Even today there is a little fact that not many Britons even heard about. The, “City of London”, and, “London, the City”, are two different entities. The City of London was the original walled city and some of those walls still exist today. It operates as a City State. It has its own Lord Mayor and has its, unelected by the people, representative who sits close to, but physically higher, than the House of Commons Speaker. He is never mentioned in proceedings and is known as, “The Remembrancer”. The City of London is thus the, independent of London City, financial square Mile.

      See:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Remembrancer

      The Remembrancer is though, part of, “The Establishment”.

      Now just what is, “The Establishment”? I’ll tell you first what it isn’t. It is not just the Government of the United Kingdom for there is the powers of the Royalty and the aristocracy from the Anglo Saxon Germanic Tribes through several other Germanic tribal factions including the Normans who are NOT French as is so often assumed.

      They were the same Germanic Tribes who were offered, and accepted, an area of France that became Normandy and the term Norman is derived from Norseman and these were among the Germanic Tribes who, at around the same period in history, were invited into south Britain when the Romans left the South Britons with utterly no idea of either defence or running a country by themselves, after several centuries under Roman rule.

      However, Roman Britain and the new country the new elite rulers had called, “Angle Land”, that became England, (and often the whole of Britain), is still often wrongly referred to as being Anglo as in Anglo-Irish Treaty, but most of Roman Britain, was never the whole of the British Isles and England still isn’t all of Britain and neither is the United Kingdom all of Britain.

      Now here is the truth that you haven’t quite grasped yet, Gary. The Establishment has never gone away and it still rules Westminster for the main unionist political parties are all parts of The Establishment. As are the Royals, the Lords, the Civil Service, The Church of England, the English Legal system, the upper strata of the English Education system, the financial sector, the Armed Forces, The Police Service, The Security Services and here is a wee proof of that particular pudding.

      What is the first thing that happens when a HOC government of any political colour gets involved in a major war?

      Westminster immediately declares a coalition war cabinet to govern the United Kingdom and you can bet your boots that it will be called The British Government and they will refer to the armed forces as The British Army, British Navy and British Air Force. Just as the Westminster lot of any political hue call themselves The British Government but are actually legally Her Majesty’s Government of Her United Kingdom – go figure.

    105. Jimbo says:

      @ Clydebuilt

      “IMO this is a failing of the Scottish Government, for the last two years all we’ve heard is “Power Grab” and “Constitutional Crisis” . . . No explanation of what has been achieved with the powers at hand.”

      Hi Clydebuilt,

      SNP constantly send out press releases of their initiatives and achievements. Media in Scotland won’t print them. You can contact your local councillor/MSP and ask them to Email you copies of SNP press releases. It’s the only time you’ll get to see them for yourself – because you’ll never see them printed or broadcast by any media in Scotland.

    106. yesindyref2 says:

      See what I mean abput the media using anti-Putin and anti-Russia, and anti=Trump propaganda, in this case the Herald and Leask?

      The cyber operation, part of a larger campaign of Kremlin propaganda and disinformation, began on the very day Mr Trump

      But the 12 ALLEGED operatives have been INDICTED, not CONVICTED.

      Standards in the media are truly woeful, no trial, no jury if appropriate, no judge, no verdict, not even a charge yet, just an Indictment.

      Makes me puke. Don’t be caught out.

    107. Patrick Roden says:

      @ Thepnr

      Yes I think there’s always the danger of people leaving the work to the ‘few’ but in this case we are only looking for people who want to buy bundles of flyers so that they can hand deliver them to households in their own area.

      My thinking is that we purchase them in bulk to get a good price, then get them delivered to designated areas, such as Dundee ( my area) or we could even get them delivered in packs of 1000 to our own address, as yesindyref2 says above, it wouldn’t be too expensive.

    108. Lenny Hartley says:

      Yesindyref2 yup i need to go to specsavers, i had a pal on the phone tonight with the conspiricy theory that they reran the poll excluding 16/17 years olds and my eyesight thought 2016 was 2018
      Somebody posted on fb this morning, probably had the same hyperopia as me. ???

    109. Patrick Roden says:

      I’m reluctant to get involved in local yes groups, simply because I think we need to be able to kick ass if we must, but do this without the media being able to directly link us to the SNP or Yes.

      For example, we need to get leaflets out calling Ruth Davidson out on Dark Money.
      The leaflet should end by asking the reader why they hadn’t heard about the ‘Dark Money’ scandal, in the media.

      Then ask ‘what else haven’t you been getting told?

      We then kill two birds with one stone:

      The No campaign & the Britnat media.

    110. Clydebuilt says:

      Legerwood @ 7.16pm

      There are other ways to get the message of BSE free herd out . . . Than to rely on the opposition’s media.

      1. FMQ’s
      2. Party Political Broadcasts
      3. Social Media (FM’s tweets, Facebook)

      They’re needing to show some endeavour. There’s a membership of over 100 thousand

    111. auld highlander says:

      Re the leaflets,

      They could be titled plain and simple as……

      THE TRUTH

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      @Lenny Hartley
      Very easy to do, so many articles aren’t dated, or take the current day’s date. And I’d say a lot of us have got excited at a find only to realise it’s old news or even spoof news. I think that even happened with BBCScotlandshire at first!

    113. Rock says:

      “For the Yes movement, the slowly-unfolding calamity of Brexit is still going to be the play that decides the game”

      It is too late, in my humble opinion.

      Rock (27th August 2017 – “Underneath the Goodyear blimp”):

      “Scotland was on the verge of independence immediately after the Brexit vote.

      The unionist parties were without leaders and completely lost, the SNP had 56 out of 59 MPs and 50% of the vote, the EU’s eyes were (favourably) on Scotland.

      But Nicola squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      The result: Nicola outsmarted by the collusion between Saints Theresa and Ruth on one hand, and Corbyn on the other, fall in SNP support from 50% to 37%.

      It is my prediction that there will be a “snap” Brexit and the SNP will be caught napping and unable to hold a second independence referendum.

      Or another “snap” Westminster election with the SNP again losing support.

      Despite the pretendy “sovereignty” and boasting of the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here, Scotland is again as far away from independence as ever.”

    114. Rock says:

      O/T

      Congratulations to Presidents Trump and Putin for meeting to try to ease tensions between their countries, and the world at large.

      Shame that with a few exceptions like Ken500 and myself, the vast majority of posters on this Scottish independence supporting site were on the same side as the anti-Russian warmongering neocons and Saint Theresa of England and Wales.

    115. Footsoldier says:

      Lots of good comments tonight on getting various messages out. I have long despaired(causes shouting at the telly)at how poor the SNP are at squeezing messages in when on air.

      I will not be the first one to suggest they need training in media presentation and stop using Unionist language.

      It’s also time to challenge the irritant of the whole of Scotland being compared to a region of England. I have heard SNP ministers do this on air e.g. “London and Scotland both voted remain”.

      It really is time to “up the game”.

    116. Thepnr says:

      Just posted on the Rev’s twitter from the HoC tonight you really aught to watch this to see the contempt that the SNP are subject to in “that place” full of buffoons and halfwits.

      https://twitter.com/MJKIndependent/status/1018974105092182018

    117. yesindyref2 says:

      SNP MP: “I so move that Scotland stay forever part of the UK”.

      Tories and Labour: “NO, go away”.

      Sounds good to me.

    118. HandandShrimp says:

      I know little of Tom Gallagher but as the successive tweets have flashed up over the months I realise that he is several bricks short of a full hod. I did wonder why we rarely hear of Alan Cochrane these days and I suspect it is because he sees the stuff Gallagher and his crew put up and says “Screw it, I was happy being irascible and contrarian but I’m buggered if I’m going to try and out-crazy that lot.”

    119. Breeks says:


      yesindyref2 says:
      16 July, 2018 at 8:34 pm

      ….Like Ukraine for example, pre-Trump, where it’s all those pesky Russians not allowing Ukraine to be part of NATO and have missiles and anti-missile missiles and anti-anti-missiles missiles missiles based on its soil scant miles from its border with Russia and therefore within easy reach of Moscow itself?

      To a degree I agree with you. I think we underestimate just how threatened Russia felt over the West’s “effective” annexation of Ukraine, which pretty much saw NATO and the EU parking itself on Russia’s lawn, and Russia’s own subsequent annexation of Crimea was effectively the Russians saying to the West “Keep Off The Grass”.

      To that extent, and not forgetting Crimea was reasonably happy to be annexed by Russia, both East and West had flexed their muscles, looked each other in the eye, and quietly defused the tension and kept the peace…. kinda.

      Where I don’t agree with you, is that scenario is neither the narrative nor the strategy which Trump is actually pursuing. I don’t believe Trump is any kind of a statesman, and just not clever enough to pursue such an incisive “Gorbachev-type” strategy.

      I actually think Trump has a very shallow and fickle appreciation of people he comes into contact with. He will open up to cheerful people wherever he feels empathy, but he will have no patience for door, serious people he dislikes. To be honest, I think Trump sees the world like the Chewing the Fat sketch “Good guy – Wank”. Trump would sup with the Devil himself if he came across as “Good Guy”.

      I don’t mean to imply that Putin is the Devil incarnate, simply that Trump lacks the political acumen and perception to judge.

      I also don’t believe for a minute the Russian’s have got themselves a Manchurian Candidate President, nor indeed have some seedy leverage over Trump. That’s all BS. I think it’s a lot simpler. Trump just hasn’t the radar to see the bigger picture. If it’s shallow and fickle, Trump’s your man. If it’s complex and deep rooted, Trump simply hasn’t got the wits, imagination or the attention span.

      He is simply out of his depth and sowing the seeds of his own demise. That’s how I read it anyway.

    120. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Patrick Roden at 10:46 pm.

      You typed,
      “For example, we need to get leaflets out calling Ruth Davidson out on Dark Money.
      The leaflet should end by asking the reader why they hadn’t heard about the ‘Dark Money’ scandal, in the media.

      Then ask ‘what else haven’t you been getting told?

      We then kill two birds with one stone.”

      That’s a very good example of the suppression of news by the MSM and Scottish TV broadcasters in support of the unionist establishment.

    121. Robert Peffers says:

      @Clydebuilt says: 16 July, 2018 at 10:51 pm@

      “1. FMQ’s”

      Oh! Come on!

      What’s the first thing the SMSM does with FMQ’s?

      They have the likes of Brian Tylor talking over the FM wile introducing FMQ’s. Why not introduce it before the event begins?

      Then we get Brian Taylor’s interpretation of what the FM is saying – sometimes even while she is still saying it. He even sometimes tells the viewers what she is going to say before she says it. Now here’s another thing, why does Taylor not point out when Leonard is making an arse of himself by talking across Leonard by explaining that what Leonard has just complained about is a reserved to Westminster matter and the SG can do nothing about it?

      If the BBC can get away with wee Nick Robinson telling the viewers that the former FM had not answered his question when many of us had watched the press conference live, just minutes before, and thus knew the FM had gone to great lengths to explain in great depth his answers to a very aggressive attacking barrage of questions by Robinson then the BBC is, and does, distort and edit everything to suit the unionist cause.

    122. Confused says:

      Wee Nikki, skilled as sver, navigates the minefield of the Trump visit – from BBC


      The American president did not meet Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, however, she denied she had refused to see him.

      At a gay pride event in Glasgow on Saturday, she told the BBC: “If the opportunity arises to meet the president I will do that and I’m sure if the opportunity arises in the future we will have lots to talk about, including the close and very important links between our two countries.

      “In democracies, it’s also important to be able to focus also on where we perhaps disagree, and lots of people disagree with the policies of the Trump administration.”

      – the last line is pure comedy – on the level of “a very modest man, with a lot to be modest about”. Boom-tish, try the veal

      They were going to make her Queen of the Pride festival but it was decided – they already had FAR too many of those.

      Some of the over-the-top emotional responses from Yessers about Trump worry me – it shows naivete.

      There’s a great Kiernan/Hemphill sketch from Chewin’ the Fat – one guy shows the new guy to his surroundings, pointing to his new workmates

      good guy … wank … good guy … wank … wank …

      I think a lot of people look on US presidents the same way

      – but its ALL “WANKS”

      – the only difference is the democrats do it because they “love you” and the republicans do the same thing because “its what you need” – nice and nasty, friendly and mean, good cop and bad cop … Obama had so much charisma he could drone-strike an entire clan, land in a helicopter and the survivors would be asking for selfies. Presidents are employees, they earn a wage, but its always the aame people in charge.

      Hillary struck me as something even worse than Trump because – on reading her policies – it seemed clear she really wanted more wars and she was not talking about yet more proxy ones against the largely defenceless – she wanted to take on countries that can defend themselves – Russia and China. Being in NATO, we all get dragged in.

      I do not want to see a Sarmat missile flying towards Scotland at 11000mph to destroy my beautiful country and its beautiful people – just because some mouth dribblers in the US voted for Hillary cuz they thought she was “Dorothy with the Ruby Slippers”. Will the last one alive please plant the rainbow flag on the smoking cinder that is the earth?

      Trump is a man who can be “honestly bought” – he is a huckster, a wheeler and dealer, a little bit woo – a little bit wee – he has no ideology or beliefs – to him everything is malleable and every situation can be sorted by a “DEAL”. This isn’t a lot to get excited about, but it won’t get you killed.

      As for his persona and public statements – its pure theatre – this guy is the world’s #1 Windup Merchant – or as we call it these days, a TROLL – he is a 14 year old on the internet making edgy shitposts in order to “trigger” his enemies. Once you get the emotional response, people stop thinking, then you can manipulate them, walk them around.

      People don’t know what to make of him – and that’s deliberate. The first thing he did in Europe, setting down – he starts selling US arms and fracked gas. He is rational. But you don’t deal with a windup-merchant by getting wound-up – you don’t take the bait – and from the previous point, if you have something he wants, then you have leverage. The guy has an absolute raging hard-on for Scotland and golf … he just wants a little love.

      The internal debate among the US deep state is the forever war between the “mad dogs” and the “realists” – there is a list of countries to be bombed and the argument is on the timing and running order, not much else. The mad-dogs usually lose, which is good because they have this thing about nukes – they want to use them, always have. Right now there is a US programme to make their nukes, “smaller” with “programmable yields” so they become more “usable”.

      There is also a high level debate about America as an Empire or as a Republic – the temptation is to become an empire and suck up all the wealth – but there are costs down the line as the whole thing will turn to shit and collapse eventually.

      “America First” a slogan going back to Charles Lindbergh is the notion of America going back to being a, more or less, normal country (albeit vast and wealthy). While US oligarchs have accrued vast fortunes due to “globalism” i.e. Empire, it has been noticed America has been hollowed out by this – in America, if you are not a pro athlete, an actor, old money, ivy league or a banker, you’re basically fucked. Trump may be trying to go back the other way (- or maybe its just another con, I dunno.)

      But even the current way may be coming to an end – the situation is as described in Brezinski’s “Grand Chessboard”, but in REVERSE. Just as he British Empire always fought against a unified Europe, the American Empire must fight against the integration of Eurasia – Euro tech, Russian resources, Chinese people – otherwise the scam is over; printing up dollars and getting real wealth in return, will be no more. And in the face of this, the imperialists, the “crazies”, fronted by Hillary, are “doubling down” – better to fight the Russians and the Chinese now, for as we wait, we get weaker and they get stronger. They want to make their omelettes by breaking everyone elses eggs in the process. There is a grim rationality to this, but it’s also – insanely dangerous.

      The last election was thus between the REALIST-REPUBLIC side against the EMPIRE-MAD-DOG side – and there is a truly rational choice to be made.

      I don’t think much of this level of analysis has ever passed thru the head of anyone wearing a “pussy hat”.

      Racism … misogyny … homophobia … gimme a break!

      What about living and dying? Does that count – remember that “equality” can always be guaranteed when everyone has nothing or we’re all in the grave.

      Putin is a “bad man” because he won’t hand his country over to Exxon and Wall St a la Yeltsin – or let “oligarchs” – jumped up street thugs pillage it – but you WANT a leader to pursue his national interest, not sell it out. Believe NOTHING from the MSM, apart from the football scores.

      The British Empire is totally evil and Scotland is far too valuable to it to let go – expect every dirty trick in the book in the forthcoming years up to – blatant refusal to allow our leaving, no matter the result of any referendum. Think of Spain-Catalonia ON STEROIDS. Now think about the friends you might have had and the friends you actually do have. I did a “funny” about the trannies the other day – but there’s nothing funny about this. Nothing.

    123. Thepnr says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Met Alan Cochrane once in a local pub in Broughty Ferry his old haunt. Didn’t know it was him until told, he’s a big guy and a great orator of Burns as he showed in the pub.

      Very proud of of his Scottish heritage he is or at least it seemed, a proud Scot but fits perfectly in my opinion, a very loud proud Scot but.

    124. Lenny Hartley says:

      yesindy2ref, yup but I thought I was past all that, I normally double check everything but misread the polling dates , never mind worse things have happened, onto another subject, I think we should have Trump 24 hour TV, he is a laugh a minute, I honestly never thought he would be this much a total plonker.

    125. yesindyref2 says:

      @Breeks
      Your assessment of Trump is pretty reasonable. I remember with all his pre-election promises the media sneered and said he’d have no chance as he’d be up against the establishment. Well, he started sacking them and they said he’d be impeached. Since then he’s sacked most of the rest and he still hasn’t been impeached.

      Yes he’s politically naive, and that means he’s not a politician, but is dealing with politicians, and that gives him a huge advantage. Because he doesn’t follow the rules of the game, he doesn’t even know them. Nobody knows what he’ll do next.

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      @Confused
      You’re totally certifiably mad but make a lot of sense.

      ‘Twas ever thus.

    127. crazycat says:

      Re: clubbing together to purchase leaflets

      There is a high probability that this could constitute joint campaigning.

      In (defined) periods prior to elections and referendums, this is regulated by the Electoral Commission. As we saw last year, if an election is called with less notice than the appropriate period, the rules are applied retrospectively.

      So it might not matter that we are not currently in a regulated period; it could be back-dated. The differences in the rules for elections and referendums are not huge.

      I am not, of course, suggesting that people should not collaborate, but I do think that we should be aware, especially of the terms of the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning, and Trade Union Adminstration Act 2014, often referred to as the Gagging Law.

      The EC has numerous guidance documents available, such as http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/105936/intro-campaigner-npc.pdf
      and
      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0004/165964/to-joint-plans-npc.pdf

      (There are more, dealing with specific issues in more detail, but those two give an overview.)

    128. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 1.04
      While it’s good advice and well spotted/remembered.
      If we win the vote then the electoral commission will have no power over us?
      I’m minded not to give a shit about playing by their rules this time around.
      It’s not as if they did anything when Westminster ignores them
      Jist sayin:)

    129. yesindyref2 says:

      Anyway to finish off this unusual digression, yeah, saw Clinton in operation in a debate against Trump and it sent shivers down my backbone, a warmonger of the worst kind. If she’d got in, we probably would already be a smoking cinder, with aliens posting diversion signs around the Solar system “Keep out- highly contaminated, may be contagious terminal madness, suspected biological brain-sapping attack. No salvage allowed, no rescue possible.”.

    130. Liz g says:

      Yesindyref2 @ 1.24
      Well…. I’ve seen rumours that She is mibbi going to run again in 2020!!!

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 17 July, 2018 at 12:49 am:

      ” … he doesn’t follow the rules of the game … “

      That’ll be because he doesn’t know it’s a game.

      ” … Nobody knows what he’ll do next … “

      That’ll be because neither does The Donald know what he’ll do next – Hell! He even doesn’t often know what he did the time before.

    132. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      You may well be right. I think as well I’m reacting to the total constant sneering at and criticism of Trump whatever he does. And that’s interesting, I wonder if some people are the same about the constant whining about Sturgeon?

      That Herald article is titled “Trump sides with Putin against FBI”. Which isn’t quite right as you’d expect, but it does remind me of 2007/8 or so when the head of the FBI tried to bully McAskill and Salmond into not freeing Megrahi, something which the FBI has no business interfering with, it’s Scots Law. He was of course ignored.

      We Scots as a contrary people don’t like being told what to do, what to think, who to believe. There must be some strategy in that somewhere, for winning Indy Ref 2.

    133. scottieDog says:

      Heard a commentator a while back talking about US foreign strategy.
      He talked about the competition between the 3 superpowers and the close relationship between Russia and China leaving America out in the cold.

      The one thing you don’t want to be is the odd one out. Perhaps there is a strategy here.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      in some of trumps interviews, he exhibits the symptoms of early onset of dementia.

      perhaps we over egg the idea that he plans anything

      perhaps he is the Chancy Gardiner of US politics and his only crime is of Being There

    135. Ken500 says:

      Trump is doing what he said he would do if elected. That is why American voters elected him. Even though the loser won, D’hondt. Trump is not a career political. That is why the US voted for him. They had had enough of them. He had better watch his back. The US warmongering military political cabel will not like it one bit. Filling their boots on human misery. $611Billion US spend that is totally unaffordable even for them.

      The right wing militia, malicious, destructive ‘Press’ do not like it one little bit. Still spreading their poisonist muck. Just as well no one reads it or believes. It just does not add up.

      The Westminster unionists still continue the downward spiral. How long can they go to muck up the economy. The disasterous, dangerous pagent continues unabated. To the guarantee end a GE for another shower of incompetents to regenerate.

      Thank goodness for the SNP Gov needed more than ever.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Support rising every day. The Tory mess and debacle continues. What a complete and utter shambles. Just appalling.

      China can get redress for sanctions if tariffs. They can appeal to the World Trade Organisation. To which most countries in the world belong. Although China is one of the most protectionist of them all in trade matters. Along with India and the US. Free equal and fair trade keeps prices down for consumers.

      The EU has just signed a trade deal with Japan to keep tariffs down, EU 400million. Japan 120Million. The EU the nearest biggest market. That Scotland relies and depends upon. Worth more than anything, for good governance, trade and social Laws. Part of the fabric of society having good relations with European neighbours. The south are displaying deviant, distructive behaviour. Sanctioning and starving citizens. Deploding, decomposing and combusting by the minute.

    136. K1 says:

      I’m beginning to think we in Scotland are the most ‘stable’ nation on the planet.

      I think that’s a fair comment.

      I wish our neighbours well in their endeavours…to lose all the phoney credibility as a decent and compassionate country and reveal themselves for what they’ve always been, Tory voting plebs blaming ‘others’ for their own stupid mistakes and banking on their own press for decades, to set them up for what they’re in for with UKexit.

      While we continue on our merry way to remaining pretty much the country that we’ve always been. (I don’t need to belabour the points; mitigation of br tax, removing ‘sanctions’ regime and in other policies that effectively have shielded the people of our country from the worst effects of Tory policies from WM)

      It really is coming down to as described atl: (everyone else in) Scotland versus WMTories (inc. branch office).

      We voted 62% Remain without most people knowing what’s devolved or reserved. That says something about us as a country. I think we are genetically programmed tae know what’s not good for us when it comes right down to it. Stable geniuses aw ae us. And so it will prove…

    137. K1 says:

      But he’s only goat wan button oan his remote…the big red wan…smirk

    138. sinky says:

      Given the gravity Ofcom places on tv production team tweets what do they make of BBC .Radio Scotland GMS non reporting of last night’s amendment by SNP to give Scottish Parliament a say on Brexit White Paper and Labour’s abstention.

    139. Ken500 says:

      The FBI is a quasi illegal operation which has been destroying the world economy. CIA collusion. Watch the ‘witch hunt’ develop over the pond. No wonder the US electorate is raging. Lies, Secrets and video tape breaking every rule and law in the book. Most of them could end up in prison for duplicity, certainly out of a job.

      The FBI and CIA finally being held to account for their illegal surveillance and criminal behaviour. The total illegal US surveillance of the world. It is a disgrace. They do not like it one little bit. The FBI/CIA being held to account for their illegal behaviour and criminality. They do not like one bit of surveillance or investigation back. Master criminals who were getting away with it. Not any more. Breaking US Law with impunity and costing $Billions. $Trns in debt. The US war machine. Now in doubt.

    140. ahundredthidiot says:

      Proud Cybernat @ 1:22 pm, yesterday.

      ‘…Only 72% of SNP supporters? Are you sure they really were SNP supporters? Bonkers.’

      This is a part of our complication. For example, I know two people who switched from Labour to SNP in 2007, they voted No in 2014. I know (knew sadly) a fellow who regarded himself as a ’90 minute Unionist’ on a Saturday at Ibrox, worked hard his whole life and had no time for the spongers of the World, therefore, he voted Conservative all his life – he voted Yes in 2014.

      It ain’t no black and white….problem is, and will be, the Unionists and the MSM know this, which is why we remain defeated thus far.

      Never, ever, underestimate their cunning.

      If we are going to get into a knife fight…..bring a knife.

    141. Petra says:

      ‘Ofcom criticised for decision on Alex Salmond Show.’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16357535.ofcom-criticised-for-decision-on-alex-slamond-show/?ref=mr&lp=1

      …………………………………

      ‘Tory MSP’s tweet about National front cover comes back to bite.’

      …”One of those to take a swipe was Tory MSP for Glasgow Adam Tomkins, who tweeted that our story showed that “science fiction still dominates one half of Scottish politics”.

      http://www.thenational.scot/thejouker/16357256.tory-msps-tweet-about-national-front-cover-comes-back-to-bite/?ref=mr&lp=2

    142. ahundredthidiot says:

      with tongue firmly in cheek

      I suggest, because I haven’t heard this so far and given all the football mania, remain a little surprised that it hasn’t yet been proposed, anyway…

      A re-run of the Brexit referendum…….with the result ‘aggregated’ with the first vote….

      (and step back…..)

    143. Ken500 says:

      The warmonger Obama is coming to Scotland to be feted. Spent $611Billion on the military to kill and maim millions. To keep the US political elite in the extravagant luxury it demands, The hypocrisy abounds. Some charity, Costing the world millions of lives, destitution and misery. Causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since the 11WW. Trading on misery. The total cruel hypocrites. ‘Charity’. They are making money out of it and paying no taxes. Sanctioning and starving people. The US military war machine supported by the Obama personal donations. To keep them rolling in it. At the trough. Totally disgraceful.

    144. Breeks says:

      Whether it’s a weakness or an evil in Trump, recognising Jerusalem was disgraceful idiocy.

      The very concept of his wall to keep out Mexicans, and the derogatory way he went about getting them to pay for it, was a toe curling bigoted shame upon America.

      His travel bans on Muslims and the racist, xenophobic ideology that drove it, were another stain upon America, and conflated bigotry, mistrust and hatred and emboldened the far right NeoNazi’s and KKK.

      His conduct with Iran’s nuclear deal was despicable too, but Trump is a man who is almost certainly not in the pocket of the Russians as his enemies allege, but certainly is in the pocket of the Israelis, but nobody will dare to say so.

      His attitudes towards Environmentalism is unravelling decades of progress, whether it’s small scale incompetence like the SSI sand dunes on his golf course, to tearing up the Paris Accord on Climate Change.

      Trump has also denied access to healthcare for many less well off Americans, and demonised the whole concept of helping the needy.

      Trump is dangerously reckless, not just risking Nuclear war with North Korea, but launching over 50 cruise missiles on Syrian / Russian targets on the flimsiest, highly suspect evidence that Assad was responsible for a chemical weapons attack. The man with his finger on the big red button proves himself a trigger happy idiot.

      I have a personal thing about corruption and jobs-for-the-boys nepotism and it truly disgusts me the way Trump will hire and fire people in high office with great integrity and see them replaced with Trump’s pals or even family members. He normalises corruption.

      Trump is single handedly destroying America’s values and the way America liked to see itself as the global standard bearer for freedom, tolerance, stoicism and strength. The plaque on the State of Liberty, the icon on America reads “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

      This man Trump is a dangerous and reckless imbecile. Even the good that he does, the promises he keeps, bringing back jobs and hope the US rust belt, keeping his word and challenging outdated convention, it all seems contrived and stinks of the worst kind of disingenuous populism. It all seems like sugar coating for a very bitter pill.

      Trump can rattle out promises like a machine gun about a Trade Deal to save the skin of Theresa May’s Brexit, but a Trade Deal with America should properly take years of difficult negotiating to agree, not just a spur of the moment nod and a wink from Trump. The Tories have placed the UK over a barrel with Brexit and need a shotgun wedding to Uncle Sam before the bump begins to show. It just isn’t going to end well.

      Do I approve of the anti-Trump hysteria? Probably not. But as witch hunts go, for once there does seem to be a bona fide witch involved.

    145. ahundredthidiot says:

      Breeks

      Don’t forget the middle word in Jerusalem

    146. Jock McDonnell says:

      @Confused
      An interesting contribution, I’ve been gradually coming to a similar view myself.
      Oh, Trump is a brash US billionaire for sure, but he is no idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing. It does seem as though the US is at a major cross-roads in its history and the old US v Russia ‘game’ is possibly no longer affordable – I think they now identify China as the major threat to previous dominance and the Chinese know it – remember Obama in Beijing ?

    147. Petra says:

      @ Boris at 1:08am ……. ‘Jackie Baillie says: ”Only Labour will take the radical steps to close the pay gap for good, like a real living wage and forcing companies to publish pay. If companies think a woman is worth a lower wage than a man then under Labour, we’ll force them to admit it.”

      Jackie Baillie has some BRASS neck. Not only did the Labour Party in Scotland ensure that the SNP would not get control over employment law (Smith Commission 2016 – the Labour party stated that financial and economic matters including monetary policy, currency, regulation, debt management and employment law should remain reserved to Westminster) they, the Labour controlled councils in particular in Glasgow, did their UTMOST over many decades to prevent women in Scotland from getting equal pay with men: LONG before 2005.

      You only hear now of the cases latterly that succeeded, some having dragged on for ten years, with the SNP having to fork out to resolve them, however there were many such cases for example Wallace and Marshall that went all the way to the House of Lords … and lost. In no small part to the fact that Derry Irvine the Lord Chancellor was the Presiding Officer of the House of Lords and Tony Blair’s VERY good friend at that time.

      Not only did they not win their cases – many of the test cases lost their jobs (because their employer was bealing at them) through bullying and harassment, and in fact were warned at Glasgow Tribunal from the onset that this is what would happen to them by the Scottish Councils QC Ian Truscott.

      Nicola Sturgeon should sort Baillie out at the next FMQ’s. Get right into her ribs and, eh, the BBC / STV should report on it.

      https://caltonjock.com/2018/07/17/jackie-baillie-msp-says-it-is-shameful-that-under-the-snp-and-the-tories-women-earn-less-than-men-but-jackie-the-record-of-scottish-labour-in-office-is-truly-appalling/

    148. Ken500 says:

      Clinton started the Russian witch hunt with a false, fake document. The Skripal warmonging liar manufactured dirty dossier. Now disappeared. Conveniently. Not allowed to tell their story. A ‘D’ notice put on the proceeding. There would have been another full blown war going on right on the Russian border. Led by Johnstone that ignorant imbecile warmonger. Now resigning from the Brexit mess. The State of it.

      The Saudi agent funded by Saudi money to try and start war world 111 and just about succeeding with the human misery. Millions killed and maimed. The most despot, absolute monarchy in the world. Misogynistic, racist, bigots and murderous like no other. Saudi (33million) $66Billion military spend. The highest (pro rata) in the world. Liars hypocrites and terrorists. An absolute scandal. In cohoots with the Israel apartheid military machine supported indirectly with Saudi collusion. The liars, cheats and terrorists. Now collapsing their economy. Their manic fevour now imploding.

      The last dirty dossier the excuse for the illegal wars. Still occupying Europe with the misery it caused. Bombing and maiming millions of people out of their homes and security. The Brexit scandal as a result. Costing &Billions and destroying people’s lives. Sanction and starving people. Their basic human rights. Blair and Bush should be in prison for what they have done. The Brexit ness destroying people’s lives. People in the UK being deported illegally. Or detained for years without any just cause. A piper just deported from Scotland for no reason. Just for paying a visit. The Scottish courts trying to put a lid on the injustice.

    149. ahundredthidiot says:

      Boris @1:08

      The level of this argument astounds me. Take Wimbledon. In an effort at ‘equality’ the ladies are now paid the same as the men.

      The men though, must play the best of five sets. This is not an opinion, but a mathematical calculation. The men now work longer for the same pay – ergo, less ‘per hour’. I can hear the nutter now, screaming for my heart on a plate.

      Now, of course we have no real sympathy for people who wear watches worth around $700,000, but it is an indication of the madness of the direction the mythological gender pay gap crusaders are taking.

    150. Petra says:

      BBC News today: Scottish oil and gas production rising, now at a five year high, as exploration goes down (always got to get the bit in) and England is running out of water.

      Our clean, pure water, one of our many lucrative resources, is probably worth more than our oil and gas. If not now definitely will be as time goes on. Look out for canals appearing all over Scotland running towards the border.

      https://norrie.wordpress.com/tag/boris-johnson-scottish-water/

    151. Gary45% says:

      Breeks@7.39
      Have a look at “Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land” on youtube, and if you can find it “The Occupation of the American Mind” there are some trailers on youtube for the latter, but the full documentary for “PP and the PL” is available.

    152. Donald Bruce says:

      Remember the last GE. The first minister made a hash if replying to a nurse who asked why she had to go to food banks to suppliant her income. This was devolved matter. We were voting for members for Westminster who do not vote on Scottish devolved NHS. Why was that question put to the FM in the first place.. On a side how many nurses in Scotland attend food banks?

    153. Fred says:

      U might think that with the Tory government in melt-down & the aftermath of the Trump-ed up catastrofuck that Scotland’s alleged journalists would be spoiled for choice for a headline?

      “Haud the Front Page!” the Record’s scoop features a fat wummin bitten by bedbugs!

    154. Macart says:

      Quite the day yesterday.

      An American pres has an epic car crash summit and press call.

      https://twitter.com/DanRather/status/1018883595463622662

      https://archive.is/fRrhc

      A Prime Minister caves on Brexiteer amendments rather than see a premature end to her tenure (see under strong armed).

      https://archive.is/iydri

      Commons votes descend into a game of thrones backstabbing contest.

      https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/1018974322612953094

      And the SNP in attempting to protect Scotland’s interests were (again) treated with utter contempt by opposition benches.

      https://twitter.com/MJKIndependent/status/1018974105092182018

      That was yesterday. Today starts with EC report finding vote leave broke campaign rules and have been referred to the police.

      https://archive.is/9zHJW

      And no, whether they broke the law or not? It won’t stop the Brexit process. Breaking purdah rules didn’t reverse 2014s result being a heads up there. Pretty much institutional carnage out there as they almost literally eat each alive. Also? Popcorn sales futures continue to climb.

      Your daily reminder that you can change this up for a bit of peace if you really felt like it. That lifeboat is still there as and when you need it.

      Just sayin’ like. 🙂

    155. Ken500 says:

      The nurse involved champagne lifestyle was ultimately exposed as a Labour stooge. The deception did not get them very far. In fact the backlash exposed their duplicity, lies and greed. .

      The Nicola and the SNP have increased the NHS staff wages, immediately, and continued to fund the SNHS properly. In spite of financial restraints. The SNHS could be funded more and be even better. Except Westminster unionists continual attempts try to ruin the Scottish economy and waste Scottish taxpayers revenues.

    156. Ken500 says:

      Yesterday the headlines were totally irrelevant. So irrelevant people don’t even remember them. They just do not buy into it. They really are a disgrace. Why they bother? Just a waste of paper. The non Dom tax evaders should not even be in charge of the Press. Total illegal manipulation by Westminster control. Without a free and fair Press there is no democracy. Thank goodness for the internet. The international headlines are totally different.

    157. Footsoldier says:

      Scottish politics are permanently sidelined. Had a look at BBC and STV politics sections and they say nothing about the vote against SNP amendments last night.

      Our own broadcasters are not interested or are part of the campaign to thwart the SNP by not discussing them. STV have taken off Scotland Tonight at a critical moment of the Brexit discussion, thereby joining the BBC in not having a nightly politics programme. It is disgraceful.

    158. Petra says:

      ”Don’t knows and don’t cares.”

      If it’s any compensation, lol, we’re not on our own folks.

      Dimbleby the wee fly man, Westminster lackey, has been a main player in keeping the Scots and Welsh in the dark for 24 years now.

      When the wee lassie asks about broadcasting (lack of) in Wales …. and points out that ”even tonight only Leanne (Wood) lives in Wales – is on the panel.”

      Dimbleby: ”Do you think there’s a shortage of news about Wales, in Wales?”

      What a cracker, eh!

      Leanne Wood sums up the situation – for them and us:

      ”Can I answer that point. It’s a really important point. There’s a huge information deficit about Welsh politics to the extent that ahead of the last National Assembly elections in 2016 a third of the people voting believed that the Health Service is still being run by the Tories in Westminster and a half of the people voting believed that Education is being run by the Tories in Westminster when that isn’t the case. Those decisions are being made by the Labour Government in Cardiff Bay. And if people don’t understand who’s making these decisions how can they make a fully informed choice when they go to the vote.”

      Dimbleby: ”I’ve got to move on.” Aye right.

      Question Time in Wales – 37:36:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHlQYwDZS3s

    159. Fred says:

      Anent food-banks, the nurse was a Pacific Quay set-up!

    160. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ ahundredthidiot, 8.27am

      Bueller had a Muller but I switched it for a Mille

    161. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – the Electoral Commisssion pdfs you linked to download but there is nothing on them! Is it my laptop or the links?

      Some great rants on this thread earlier on BTW. Thanks to Confused and others for a different angle on the Trump phenomenon. I must admit his defiance of the CIA/FBI hysteria about Russia is a bold step and I agree with it.

      I still regard him as a vulgarian and enemy of democracy though.

    162. Abulhaq says:

      With hindsight on Donald Trump:
      In Britain, the Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, said: “Trump’s election is an unmistakable rejection of a political establishment and an economic system that simply isn’t working for most people. It is one that has delivered escalating inequality and stagnating or falling living standards for the majority, both in the US and Britain.”
      He added: “This is a rejection of a failed economic consensus and a governing elite that has been seen not to have listened. And the public anger that has propelled Donald Trump to office has been reflected in political upheavals across the world.”
      All very apposite as the Donald continues to diss establishments both local and planetary.
      He’s simply doing what he set out to do in his election campaign. What’s the problem snowflakes.
      The days of hanging on America’s coat tails are over. Get an independent life.

    163. Clydebuilt says:

      Thepnr . . . . FMQ’s It’s the only chance tge FM gets to make her points without interruption. Whilst showing up the opposition lies
      I see BBC interruption during FMQ’s at all. Brian Taylor only comes on at the end.
      Voters should be encouraged to watch or listen. Beyond me why the SNP and the wider YES movement haven’t cot honed on to this snd promoted FMQ’s

      KI

      Aye as I see it Trump is vilified by American and UK media because He isn’t a warmonger. After he sanctioned bombing a Syrian airforce runway plus a supposed chemical weapons facility attack he was treated like a hero by the American media one commentator hailed him as ” A real president, growing into the job”
      We wouldn’t be hearing anything sbout Russian prostitutes, or a tape of rowdy talk from Trump on a bus over a decade ago, if he’d sanction an invasion or two.

    164. Macart says:

      Mmmmm. Posted a few minutes ago and nowt appeared. Mind you it did have a few links so probably stuck in a filter or pre mod. (sigh)

      Basically though, yesterday was pretty chaotic in politics land. Well… it was carnage on crack to be painfully accurate. Pres going mental. May caving to Brexiteer pressure. Labour backstabbing and abstaining on amendments by turn. The SNP being treated to yet more condescension by the locals. Oh, and leave us not forget today’s breaking story? The leave campaign were a bunch of cheating fibbers, which can be safely filed under WHO EFFING KNEW?

      Yes, all of this does strikingly resemble a runaway train. One that’s heading toward a cliff, which also happens to be above a maelstrom, bottomed with jaggy rocks inhabited by starving wolverines.

      How and ever, this is your daily reminder that you can change this up for a bit of peace if you really felt like it. That lifeboat is still there as and when you need it.

      Just sayin’ like. 😎

    165. Petra says:

      ‘Chequers deal ‘dead in the water’ after Theresa May accepts Brexiteers’ amendments.’

      …”One of the amendments forces the British government to commit itself in law not to allow a customs border down the Irish Sea – a move that potentially rules out the EU’s ‘backstop’ on customs…”

      http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/07/17/news/chequers-deal-dead-in-the-water-after-theresa-may-accepts-brexiteers-amendments-1384057/

    166. galamcennalath says:

      Don’t know if anyone else has posted this. I think it’s a Brexit MUST READ.

      http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/16/govt-capitulation-today-could-all-but-guarantee-no-deal

      No deal seems the probably outcome now. TMay has accepted an amendment which makes it illegal for any government to have NI in a different customs zone. The ‘back stop’ must therefore mean the whole UK closely tied to the EU, which is not the plan.

      Conclusion of the Divorce Treaty has now been made impossible, if the EU reject the accompanying outline of future trade which TMay has come up with.

      We MUST all remember that for Brexit to happen in an orderly manner there has to be the Divorce Treaty, there does NOT have to be the outline future trade outline. However, TMay’s plan is that the future trade plan will prevent the need for the backstop within the Divorce Treaty. She has tied the two together, stupidly.

      IMO, as soon as this all becomes obvious to the wide population, IndyRef2 should be announced.

    167. galamcennalath says:

      @Petra

      Thanks for that Irish link, it’s pointing out the same as the politics.co.uk one I just posted.

      TMay is moving towards a no deal situation, by stupidity or by intent.

    168. Petra says:

      Another good one from Wee Ginger Dug ….

      and his fundraiser, folks.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/07/16/impotent-imperialists-and-the-pursuit-of-the-impossible/

    169. David McCandless says:

      “(Excluding Tory voters, the party that would still rather devolution had never happened at all, just 19% answered Yes versus 63% saying No.)”

      If you are going to exclude Tory voters – on the basis that they all must vote in a particular way, shouldn’t you also exclude SNP voters under the same logic?

      Second point:

      “But in truth the public has never really kept tabs on what is and isn’t devolved, which is probably why Unionists keep getting away with promising to extend devolution as a sop to dissuade people from independence. Just over a quarter – 28% – correctly identified the fact that NONE of the powers in our question are in fact devolved.”

      ‘Probably’ ? ‘Possibly’ is a bit more accurate. If you say something is probable, you need a bit more to justify it. Equally I could argue that the SNP deliberately talk devolution down and don’t want the public to know the extent of devolution, because people might decide independence wasn’t necessary.

      It’s all about balance.

    170. galamcennalath says:

      Nicola’s getting on with the ‘day job’, calling out TMay …

      https://mobile.twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1018874298939961344

      The solution is in your hands, Nicola.

    171. Glamaig says:

      BBC Scottish politics page still leading with the Salmond tweets story even though the Vote Leave fraud story is newer. Watch how quickly it slips off the page…

    172. Clapper57 says:

      Vince Cable and Tim Farron did NOT show up for vote in commons yesterday….yet unsurprisingly they have the audacity to criticise the SNP for not backing second EU vote.

      FFS why do people not see that the Lib Dems are just tactically positioning themselves politically in the the Brexit middle ground….they know the Tories have the pro Brexit voters….Labour as usual jump off and on the Leave/Remain fences dependent on public opinion/mood, trying and once again failing to be all things to all people…no fixed position because majority of their MP’s more concerned with getting shot of Corbyn , who it must be said is pro Brexit, than voicing a firm party position on Brexit.

      Meanwhile much shit is hitting the fan on Trump, Russian interference in Brexit and American elections, Pro Leave campaign, May’s political weakness, BBC bias ,Tory/DUP dark money and NI hard border via No deal Brexit and yet …………the rabid Brexit voters are STILL in see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil mode .

      Absolute sham using ‘democracy’ as the excuse for this mess. Personally I am way past the point of ever accepting and believing Brexit won via democracy….to all of those REMAIN MP’s who hide behind this as an excuse to press on with this destructive policy…..well when the Brexit shit lands these same MP’s will need to take responsibility for their collective dereliction of duty. Hopefully enough Scots will agree that now is as good a time as any to get the f**k out of this EVEL generated mess….to NOT want to escape would be the biggest madness in all of this f**ked up chaotic shit fest.

      May may think “NOTHING HAS CHANGED” but therein lies her weakness ….in promoting blatant lies in the face of the obvious truth in the damaging changes that will ensue in UKOK’s departure from the EU , UKOK’s supposed closer trade alliance with Trump’s America and the snakes in her party waiting to strike. EVERYTHING has changed ….including the fragility of her ‘precious’ union which if sanity wins will be no more.

      Indy ref 2 is the ONLY safety net Scotland will have ….I pray that the majority of Scots will see this as the ONLY option to escape the downright obvious madness of Tory aka Con Brexit .

      ps. Labour in Scotland can GTF with their current deflection tactics re GCC…..a shower of opportunistic chancers feeding yet again on contrived grievances to jump on yet another SNPBAD bandwagon.

    173. galamcennalath says:

      @Petra … Wee Ginger Dug ….

      “British nationalist parties in Scotland … are so terrified of doing anything that might lead to a growth in support for independence that they refuse to criticise or attack a British government for trampling over the interests of Scotland within the UK.”

      … that is just soooo true. They should be fighting for the interests of their constituents, but instead they put their British Nationalism before all else. They are an utter disgrace.

    174. Robert Peffers says:

      @Confused says: 17 July, 2018 at 12:32 am:

      “Wee Nikki, skilled as sver, navigates the minefield of the Trump visit”

      Yes and?

      ” … Some of the over-the-top emotional responses from Yessers about Trump worry me – it shows naivete.”

      Nah! It just shows you hold certain views that oppose those of Yessers – and you don’t like it.

      ” … Presidents are employees, they earn a wage, but its always the aame people in charge.” Well you got that bit right but you got wrong who is in charge in the USA and have been almost as long as there’s been a USA.

      ” … There is also a high level debate about America as an Empire or as a Republic”

      And there is the flaw in your arguments for (a) The USA is no more, “America”, than it is, “THE United States”.

      It does the exact same as Westminster that claims it has absolute sovereignty, calls itself Britain and brainwashes everyone to believe the bullshit.

      America actually begins up by the Earths North Pole and stretches right down almost to the South Pole. The USA is just a wee bit of America and USAsians are immigrants into the Americas. Their southern neighbours full name is, “The United States of Mexico”, so the USA (note that like, “The UNITED KINGDOM”, use initial letters to brainwash the people that they are the only united states in America, and like the UK they claim they are the Americans and the rest of the Americas are not. There is a reason why there are similarities between the USA & The UK and they do have a, “Special Relationship”, but, thing is, it isn’t the one being assumed it is.

      The real people in charge belong to group of old dynastic wealthy families who control the USA and most of the rest of the World, the Kennedys are but one such family but even they are not the real leaders. Here’s a wee list:-

      The Bardi family of Florence (14th century)
      The Medici family, as owners of the Medici Bank.
      The Gondi family of Florence, financial partners of the Medici family.
      The Fugger family of mercantile bankers and venture capitalists.
      The Welser family, alongside the Fugger one of the most important families of merchant bankers.
      The Baring family, owners of an important merchant bank in London.
      The Schröder family, a leading Hanseatic family of Hamburg.The Rothschild family of bankers became the richest family in the mid-19th century.
      The Goldman–Sachs family, owners of the Goldman Sachs investment bank from 1869 to 1912.

      Such people really rule the World and they do so by pulling the right strings.

    175. Hamish100 says:

      bbc – Have you ever promoted on call kaye and other type shows certain individuals who promote a unionist line? How come the same people from eberdeenshire keep appearing. How come bug man pennington appeared in the best seats with others to promote on tv the unionist cause? coincidence? how about the poor nurse from England claiming poverty? coincidence? how come on bbc Any Questions last Friday a Brexit tory councillor managed to get a question on air and others didn’t? coincidence.

      I don’t believe in coincidences.

    176. Dr Jim says:

      Sir Humphrey Hoo Haw and his civil servants in Whitehall (you know the guys who actually run the UK) must be getting pretty fed up uf working constant overtime and night shift trying to implement the minute by minute policy changes of these buffoon headed Tories

      You know there are still people out there who think politicians run stuff (They only decide policy) and even at that the civil servants can tell them to change it if they don’t like it

    177. Ken500 says:

      The laughable ‘opposition’ could have taken May and the Tories down many times. They are colluding in the shambles. It will continue until their is a GE so the Tories can lose. There is no Democrscy at Westminster just a bunch of stooges.

    178. Dr Jim says:

      Two hunters killed a lion (bad thing) and strung it up on a tree so they could be pleased with themselves
      Twitter jumps into action and everybody wants these guys dead, they want them eaten by other lions, given blanks in their guns so when they shoot and nothing happens everyone can enjoy the looks on their faces when the lions tear them to pieces and everybody likes these ideas

      But if you say something like that about a politician who by their actions destroys the lives of thousands or even millions of people somebody’ll send the cops round because you said a bad thing

      Funny old world innit

    179. Liz g says:

      Galamcennalath @ 9.41
      I’m not all that sure May accepted the amendment about the Irish border from either stupidly or intent…. Well not intent to push for a no deal Brexit..
      I think that they could be trying to hide behind N.Ireland!
      They have said and keep on sayin, “Westminster will not put a hard border in N.Ireland”.What they don’t actually say (or only occasionally) is that Dublin or the EU can if it wants to.
      I think making it illegal to have a separate customs arrangement in N.Ireland,is designed to force the EU to give the whole of the UK a customs union that protects Dublin and the Good Friday agreement or damage Ireland and force a border between it and the North.
      They are using N.Ireland and the EUs obligations to protect one of it’s members as a route to a good customs deal for Westminster.Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland,why wouldn’t they,at this point they lose nothing if the EU won’t bite,but could gain a decent customs union for themselves and not just N.Ireland!

    180. Big Jock says:

      Is it just me or can I now see the whites of their eyes!

      Is it now time to consider firing the starting pistol. We can’t allow this government to run away into recess until October.

    181. manandboy says:

      Brexit – two years of changing the props on the stage while the script had yet to be written. In fact, it was never commissioned.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/who-runs-the-country-the-answer-is-too-awful-to-contemplate

      “Moments later, Davis stood up to make his first contribution in the house since his resignation last week.”

      “What Davis hadn’t banked on was his own intellect. Or lack of it. In making a pitch for wisdom, he unwittingly proved exactly why he had always been so unsuited to being in office. Not so much gravitas, as levitas. The best way to increase world trade was to trash our trade with the EU.”

      “He was heard in near silence by MPs on both sides of the house. Under the circumstances it was the kindest response. Davis is now a stranger not just to government but also to intelligent life.”

    182. Doug Bryce says:

      > Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland

      Another reason why there will be a no deal brexit.

      The divorce bill can only be graded if EU is sissified with border arrangements. Ireland (as one of 27 EU members) has automatic veto too.

      Also : if we get no deal Brexit then under WTO rules the UK will need to implement its own border.

      The suggestion the NI border is not a problem for UK to solve is brexit fallacy.

      Get your popcorn out – the house of cards is coming down.

    183. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Peffers

      As Major-General Smedley Butler said in the early 1930s:

      “I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.”

    184. galamcennalath says:

      @Liz g

      Yes, TMay is trying to force the EU to accept a customs deal for the whole UK which will solve the Irish border. All along (with Davis) they have wanted to talk trade arrangements early on.

      However, that just isn’t the legal reality nor Brexit necessity. The Divorce Treaty needs a legally binding commitment to a non hard Irish border. In parallel there MIGHT be a non binding mutual statement on future trade/customs etc..

      There is absolutely no way the Divorce Treaty could rely on this contemporary non binding statement of intent. And conversely there is no way a full Trade/Customs Treaty can be agreed, and made legally binding in the timescale. TMay must know this.

    185. schrodingers cat says:

      @gala

      IMO, as soon as this all becomes obvious to the wide population, IndyRef2 should be announced.
      ————

      treezas job was only ever to hold the tories together until the brexit deal was finalised then bring it back to the tory party and resign. job done as she blames the eu for its intransigence.

      we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu +
      a 2 year transition period.

      the subsequent tory leadership election will decide where to accept this deal or no deal. no tory candidate will stand on a ticket of accepting a deal which puts a customs border in the irish sea. there can only be one outcome, a new pm supporting no deal (mogg?)

      to that end, i’m not sure the ammendment last night banning NI from being able to stay in the cusm really changed very much, it would never have happened.

      no one wants treezas job at the moment, thats why no leadership challenge has happened. it is also why those tories resigning have not offered an alternative proposal/solution. there isnt one. there never has been.

      then the new pm will call a ge.

      this will enable the tories to ditch any noisy remainers.

      this will kill the libdem euref2 proposal on the grounds that the people

      the tories campaigning on No Deal will force corbyn to chose, no more cake for either of them. if labour support the eu deal, corbyn will be denounced as a sinn fein stooge and will lose labour brexit vote. if he also supports no deal, he loses labour remainer vote.

      either way, corbyns goose has been cooked, he is damned whichever way he choses.

      snp will continue to campaign to remain cusm members, the only sensible option while ruth and dicky will find it hard polishing whatever shit that london deals them.

      i think this ge will be the deal breaker, in the absence of cake, scottish voters will be forced to chose between very stark realities. this will polarise opinion. on the morning of the result, diehard unionist will wake up to a bojo or mogg PM and a no deal brexit, a resigning corbyn and libdems with no policy or anywhere to go………

      then we launch indyref2

    186. Doug Bryce says:

      > Taking the chance the EU will opt to protect Ireland

      Another reason we might get no deal…

      Divorce bill can only be finalised if EU is satisfied on arrangements for NI border. Ireland also has a veto on the exit deal.

      If we get no deal the UK must implement its own border under WTO rules. The alternative would be to drop all import tarrifs (which is another topic and means there is no motivation for anyone to do trade deal with UK).

      The suggestion Irish border is a problem for EU to solve is brexit falalcy.

      The only practical answer is a sea border.
      However May is dependent on the DUP.
      Get your pop corn out 🙂

    187. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      Every time I go to the Electoral Commission website looking for these documents, what is available is different!

      Back in 2015, for instance, I printed out about a dozen guidance documents, dealing with separate issues (with some overlap). I could not find those again last night. I did, however, open the ones I posted links to, and they cover the basics. I’ve just opened them again now (copying and pasting in a new tab, not clicking on the link directly) and I can see them – the first one has a bilious mauve cover; the other is blue-green.

      There’s also this, which I could not find last night, but which I sent someone a few weeks ago and which still opens for me:
      https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/party-or-campaigner/non-party-campaigners/am-i-part-of-a-joint-campaign

      These have different document numbers, but cover a lot of the same material – perhaps they will work for you:
      https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/165963/to-activities-npc.pdf
      https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0011/169463/to-campaign-npc-ukpge.pdf

      (I can speculate about why what I think is the same search yields such variable results, but that is probably counter-productive.)

    188. schrodingers cat says:

      Big Jock says:
      Is it just me or can I now see the whites of their eyes!

      Is it now time to consider firing the starting pistol.

      ———————
      no, but it is time to take aim.

      no one wants to be in treezas shoes, not even her tory rebels. she must be given the time to go to brussels and come back with whatever deal the eu is willing to give even if it sticks in her throat.

      we need to give her the time to do that, a few weeks, indeed she cant wait for the holidays to decide this endgame, resign, be replaced or back the no deal option herself. either way, no deal is the only dog in the race for the tories regardless of who leads them.

      a ge straight after this, is the most sensible political option for the london tories. no question

    189. HandandShrimp says:

      The BBC are remarkable, Minister resigns after thousands of kinky sex texts to barmaid, letting his wife and young child down, Brexit fraud and Bexit chaos in Parliament and their lead story is…Alex Salmonds pilot show tweets were from staff not the general public (which is perhaps no surprise as the show was prerecorded.) The Minister barely got 5 minutes of fame.

      Boy do the BBC hate Alex Salmond and his programme. They are so nakedly agenda driven that it would make a Pravda programme controller blush.

    190. Luigi says:

      Don’t expect anything to happen soon folks. he country may be on the edge of an abyss but that won’t be of any concern to the MPs, not when they have other priorities:

      Like 3 months of “well-earned” holiday time.

      You think I’m joking, don’t you?. 🙂

    191. Abulhaq says:

      If Donald Trump were soft on liberal button pushers such as ‘gender issues’ he could bomb the hell out of whomsoever he liked and got away with it. Had liberal hawk Hilary Clinton been elected that’s exactly what you’d have got in Syria and Iran. Wonder if Nicola Sturgeon & co would have gone along with that?

    192. jfngw says:

      @HandandShrimp

      Without irony the Westminster financed BBC lead the story with ‘The Kremlin backed channel’.

      Only one of the tweets was actually from a member of the production staff. A friend of someone who happens to be a cameraman is not part of the production staff, no matter how much OFCOM want him/her to be.

    193. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu +
      a 2 year transition period.

      Indeed. The Tories and media try to confuse the long term trade arrangements with the basic requirements of the Divorce Treaty.

      The kind of future cherry picking trade / customs plans the Tories are banding about are nonsense and the EU won’t entertain them. However, that doesn’t effect the basic Divorce Treaty. It’s all smoke and mirrors to get them through the actual Brexit event.

    194. HandandShrimp says:

      jfngw

      True but the story itself is utter trivia while they ignore genuinely important issues. They are undoubtedly corrupt. I would say Donalda is even more of a place woman than the previous admin team. Untrustworthy is their watchword.

    195. jfngw says:

      Reith’s BBC mission was inform, educate, entertain, so they claim.

      I think we can now agree it is misinform, propaganda, circuses.

      The broadcaster is now stuffed with government connected people at the top echelons, it is purely a government mouthpiece (probably always was but most people didn’t notice as they had no other independent outlet).

    196. schrodingers cat says:

      galamcennalath says:
      we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu +
      a 2 year transition period.

      Indeed. The Tories and media try to confuse the long term trade arrangements with the basic requirements of the Divorce Treaty.

      The kind of future cherry picking trade / customs plans the Tories are banding about are nonsense and the EU won’t entertain them.

      ———————
      exactly gala, this type of cakism was the basis of leaves victory in the euref, with bojo and farage telling everyone “of course we will get a good deal” it was so successful that both corbyn and treeza copied this tactic in the last GE.

      but I think my main point is that the media, politicians and the voters are in for a severe reality check once the terms of the deal are actually known.

      voters in scotland in this up and coming GE will know exactly what they are voting for and i doubt slab or ruthie will enjoy selling this message, the “this is what the entire uk voted for”
      is becoming very tiresome and i dont think it will wear well with the voters.
      i expect the snp to win back more than a few of the seats lost last year, seeing salmond, tasmina, angus robertson and john nicolson coming storming in back to westminster will give us all a lift and the start of indyref2 campaign a real boost

    197. Doug Bryce says:

      > we know what the deal will be, britain out and NI in the smcu

      This outcome has 2 twists

      1) NI will get a special deal. Denying that to Scots will be politically impossible.

      2) Without any agreement on NI then the divorce bill cant be settled and we get a true ‘no deal brexit’. i.e utter economic chaos, queues at Dover and a real Brexit effect.

      Both outcome highly favorable for independence. I would even suggest only an EEA brexit (like Norway or CH) can save the precious union.

    198. Mountain Shadow says:

      The Electoral Commission decision on the Vote Leave fraud shows what we need to learn for Indyref2.

      Break the rules, do whatever it takes to secure a Yes victory, because by the time the EC make a judgement, it will be too late to change it.

    199. Petra says:

      @ galamcennalath at 9:41am …..

      Yeah snap!

      Have you ever witnessed anything like THIS absolute chaos? Unbelievable and it’s not over yet. What boo-boos are they going to come out with next? Or is it all just part of the no deal plan additionally leaving the EU to set up a hard border? Carry the can.

      As the UK numpties continue to discuss the pros (what pros?) and cons of this they seem to have forgotten that the EU bottom line is that the EU isn’t going to make concessions for them. If they did they’d have a dozen plus countries looking for better deals, such as all of the goodies minus free movement of people. The EU is already struggling to hold it together to the point that the sooner we get out of this Union on the Brexit ticket the better.

      We’ll get our Independence, thank God, and hopefully attract investors and companies here. Some from south of the border no doubt. We’ll need to because a failing little Engerland will impact negatively on us. Clearly botching up already to the point that I see (on Twitter) that more and more enlightened English people are cracking up and thinking of heading our way now. I say to them hurry up, get a move on, come here and vote alongside us.

      ……………………

      Just watched a Tory politician being interviewed on the BBC about the Electoral Commission report (and the measly fine) and Vote Leave spending. He said he hadn’t read the report so couldn’t comment, handy response, and then ended by saying it doesn’t matter anyway as Remain spent more than Leave. It was left at that FGS. No rebuttal from the BBC interviewer. How on earth could that be? If that was the case Remain would be under investigation too. What a bunch of liars and chancers. Trying to dupe the viewers at every turn.

      ……………………..

      On Daily Politics: A Lib-dem politician’s saying if they’d known the vote was going to be so tight Cable and Fallon would have attended and voted. It doesn’t matter anyway he said as the vote was swung by three votes, not two, and the Labour Party was to blame because four of them voted along with the Tories. You couldnae make this up.

    200. Macart says:

      Well now!

      https://archive.is/mxd1V

      Squeaky bum time Ms May.

    201. schrodingers cat says:

      @doug bryce

      I think you are right, but since both treeza and corbyn have ruled out the sm/cu, the eu isnt even considering efta/eea or any of the cakism (corbyns “out of THE CU but in A CU”) bollox and the uk will not get an exception from this. out of the cusm means exactly that.

      thing is, what will cushion the impact of brexit is the 2 year transition deal but the tories will not support the backstop position of ni being in the cu/sm. thats a fact

      ergo, no deal is the only thing the tory mp’s can and will support. that is why i think another ge will happen. it will also silence those calling for euref2.
      the people will get their say on the final deal, but at a ge not a referendum.
      and the tories will win again

    202. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Abulhaq

      But for that angel/devil mask switcheroo to be worth the bother, then public opinion on these issues would have to really matter in some way. It doesn’t. Continuation of conspicuous consumption is what matters, and unjust foreign wars never seem to put people here off their cornflakes.

      Syria is still getting razed, and Afghanistan is still teeming with troops. The long game goes on.

    203. galamcennalath says:

      Mountain Shadow says:

      Break the rules, do whatever it takes to secure a Yes victory, because by the time the EC make a judgement, it will be too late to change it.

      I wouldn’t go that far myself.

      However, one thing is certain … the BritNats will take that approach to IndyRef2!

      We can use it as a tactic against them. Keep an eye on them, and call them out.

      We already know much of SiU’s money comes from people whose main residence is outside Scotland and they won’t even have a vote here. That is a disgusting attempt to undermine democracy. It’s ‘foreigners’ interfering in our affairs. We should milk it for all it’s worth!

      As they say, ‘follow the money’, much of it is bound to be dodgy and dirty!

    204. Lanarkist says:

      BBCRadio Scotland, J. Beattie show, just had Tom Harris, leader of Vote Leave in Scotland, on to talk about the EC Judgement on Leave campaign breaking the law on spending limits. No other parties or Member of In Campaign asked to contribute.
      So much for balance, allowing one guilty side member to challenge judgement without interruption.

      Guilty party allowed free reign to pour doubt and uncertainty on outcome.

      Shame on BBC Scotland, no surprise there then!

    205. Petra says:

      Oops I see I botched up part of my last post? Should read, “They seem to have forgotten that the EU is part and parcel of this.”

      Is everyone so sure that there’s going to be a GE before next March? I’ve got my doubts about that.

    206. Dr Jim says:

      Tom Harris makes yet another giant Arse of himself on live radio with another ludicrous statement that *You can’t be an Independent country if you can’t sack the government* the implication being that the entire European Union and every country in that Union is not an Independent country because it’s RULED by unelected people
      One wonders if the governments of the 27 countries of the EU agree with idiot Tom Harris

      Within minutes of that statement on the John Beattie program the texts come in repeating the same bilge

      On the same program Ross Thomson (y’know the mad Tory clown) claimed he DID want immigration for Scotland just not EU people, eh other people from somewhere else, from the other world, or something, but it would all work for Scotland, oh and NO he does not take direction from Ruth Davidson (he laughed) he is his own man (he stated)

      I’m sure strong leader that she is and future PM material that the English folk think she is Ruth Davidson will be very pleased to hear that Ross Thomson and his Westminster pals couldn’t give a flying duck what she thinks

      Ross Thomson was last seen stroking Jacob Rees Moggs knees and grooming his leg hair

    207. Effijy says:

      There has been a whole series of fines for Tories cheating with their expenses, with the most recent £61,000 the Tory Brexiteers.

      What is it people are not understanding about the Electoral
      Commission’s objective in trying to ensure elections and referendums are not always won by the people with the most money?

      The whole thing has become a complete and utter farce.

      They might as well just tell these Tory Packs that they can spend anything that they like, but their is a £60,000 tariff on the back of it.

      This is just like trying to put a multi million pound Formula 1
      team out of business by giving them a parking ticket outside their HQ.

      England has Fake News, Fake Democracy, and Fake Politicians all controlled by very real and rich fascists.

      For Fakes sake we must become independent from this vile corruption.

    208. Dan Huil says:

      The so-called united kingdom is a laughing stock. Scotland must disassociate itself completely, and quickly, from this pathetic, disgraceful union with England.

      Time for Scotland to put the boot in, and get the hell out.

    209. Ken500 says:

      A hedge fund donated £90Million to Leave and made £300Million through the Pollster manipulated Brexit scandal. The only reason for Brexit so Tory Hedge Funds and their associates can tax evade and defraud public money. Everyone else have to pay for it.

    210. Petra says:

      Dr Jim’s last post just reminded me of someone I had kind of forgotten about! Ruth the Mooth, the woman whose Mooth seems to be zipped shut this weather. C’mon the BBC / STV see if you can find her, unzip and ask her what she thinks of the power grab, the Tory Brexit shenanigans etc. Ask her how Scotland will fare in all of this. Will her strong and stable big T Brexit means Brexit boss guarantee that our Parliament will remain intact, our economy won’t suffer and that there will be no job losses?

    211. Fred says:

      Who were the Tories who criticised Nicola Sturgeon’s re-shuffle! “Everybody gets to be in the Scottish Cabinet!”

      Contrast with Theresa’s cabinet!

    212. Derick fae Yell says:

      Doug Bryce

      “Both outcome highly favorable for independence. I would even suggest only an EEA brexit (like Norway or CH) can save the precious union.”

      No it wouldn’t. Firstly because the EEA needs freedom of movement, which Brexitland won’t vote for.

      But even if it did, the step then for Scotland in the UK in the EEA, to Scotland in EFTA in the EEA – is then a very small and completely de-risked one. No hard border.

      The later step for Scotland (if we wished) from EFTA EEA to EU EEA could be done at our leisure

    213. Robert Peffers says:

      @Ken500 says: 17 July, 2018 at 10:28 am:

      ” … The laughable ‘opposition’ could have taken May and the Tories down many times. They are colluding in the shambles.”

      So, Ken500, you still don’t understand the implications of what, “The Establishment”, actually means?

      “The Opposition”, has never really existed as such. It has always been a sham to have the electorate, a.k.a The Subjects of the Queen of England think they have a choice but whichever party gains control of the government the government is subordinate to the elite ruling wealthy people we never hear about.

    214. schrodingers cat says:

      @petra
      Is everyone so sure that there’s going to be a GE before next March? I’ve got my doubts about that.
      ———————-
      nothing about the future can be said to be certain because it is, well, the future

      we deal in likelyhood and probability, eg rees moggs amendment last night was carried unapposed, no vote required. it is now illegal for ni to be left in the sm/cu while britain leaves the sm/cu.

      this increases the chances of a No Deal result. for no tory pm or mp will ever vote for a deal where ni gets left behind. fact

      i think treeza was only ever a caretaker manager tasked with holding the tory party together until she could bring back the best deal she could from the eu. not for the people or parliament to decide but for the tory party to decide

      I daresay treeza could stay on as a no deal tory prime minister but in truth i doubt she will, her reputation is already shot and history will painter as the pm who failed to get a good deal.

      the brexiteers already have enough signatures to bring her down, they are just waiting for her to complete the task she was chosen to do.
      then the only canditates for pm will be those that support no deal, since supporting the eu deal, which leaves ni behind is now illegal in english law.

      the new PM will want a ge to
      1. ratify his premiership
      2. clear out troublesome remainers like soubry, clark etal.
      3. there is a good probability a tory pm on a no deal manifesto would win.
      4. it would shoot the libdem fox calling for the people to have a vote on the final deal by euref2, by giving the people a vote in the “brexit deal” GE
      5. it would force corbyn to take sides, he will lose eitherway

      6. it could benefit the snp but i dont think the tory brexiteers care very much for scotland if indeed they think about us at all.

      once treeza comes back fro the eu with what is left with her white paper, the probability increase dramatically for
      1. no deal
      2. a new PM
      3. A GE

    215. Doug_Bryce says:

      @schrodingers cat

      I agree that a general election is almost certain. However I fail to see how it will resolve current stalemate in any way.

      Likely another hung parliament with no consensus how to proceed 🙂

      Eventually though Westminster will be forced to make a real decision on NI if Brexit is to happen. This is when SNP should start to move, as it will open a real pandoras box.

    216. schrodingers cat says:

      Doug_Bryce

      hung parliaments are very difficult to predict and generally very rare. the numbers need to be very close

      although another ge does at least open the possibility and could propel the snp into the position of king maker, just at the point where nicola presents her request for a ection 30 🙂

    217. Cherry says:

      I accidentally came across this article from 2017. Still relevant and does help in revealing What Is Going On! After reading Finton O’Tool we really are being groomed for fascism but in a rather “British ” way…still fascism tho.
      http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/meet-le-cercle-making-bilderberg-look-like-amateurs/

    218. schrodingers cat says:

      However I fail to see how it will resolve current stalemate in any way.

      GE give the leaders the chance to rid themselves of trouble makers.

      eg, the blairites did such a good job getting rid of left wingers in slab, when corbyn was elected, there were none left in scotland to vote for him. the same is true for labour councillors, thats why they are in bed with so many tories

    219. Dr Jim says:

      America the most obese race of people on the planet, is it because they eat a lot or is it because of what they eat
      The TV people tell us constantly about this stuff but where’s the documentary on what goes into the stuff that Americans eat and how it’s made because in a very short time once the *UK* gets its way this American chlorinated hormone added GM crop raised bilge will be (excuse the pun) winging its way to our supermarkets and they’re rubbing their hands with glee waiting for its arrival

      I have a feeling that if American food standards and practices were to be aired on TV many people in the whole of the 4 countries of the British isles might be taking a wee step back and thinking again about this whole Brexit American Arse licking contest when they realise the cheese they give their kids to go to school with has in fact NO ducking cheese in it they just call it American cheese because it tastes similar to cheese

      So eat up when it comes folks the clothes shops will be only too happy to serve you when you rise from a medium to an XXL overnight with elastic waistliners inserted for your weekend homone injected sausage barbecue and American cheeseburger followed by a new and improved aspartame flavoured death drink

      But don’t worry because you’ll be able to buy fabulous new health insurance at a modest cost (at first) to help you combat the many many digestive problems you’re going to get on the way to your demise and new wonder drugs widely tested on volunteers who can’t afford the (modest cost) even by selling their blood (forgot about that did you?)

      You’ll be able to afford servants though shipped in from far away countries for £1 quid a day until there’s too many of them then we’ll have to ship them out again because we can’t build a wall to keep them behind, Ooh unless we build Ghettos with project housing to shove them in that we can have a shoot to kill policy on because they’re likely to be all dark people so easy to spot for the new private armed police force (because of the crime that the dark people keep causing you understand) (these people are always ungrateful)

      America, land of the what now?

    220. alistair x says:

      Interesting interview on latest RT Keiser report concerning taxpayer funded Royal Bank of Scotland forcing viable businesses into bankruptcy to plunder assets.
      RT America shows far less timid than UK counterparts, I guess that’s where constitutional right of free speech comes into play.

    221. Doug_Bryce says:

      > propel the snp into the position of king maker

      That is the fantasy scenario.
      Oh how the brexiters would sequel….

    222. schrodingers cat says:

      Doug_Bryce says:
      > propel the snp into the position of king maker

      That is the fantasy scenario.
      Oh how the brexiters would sequel

      ———————–
      not neccessarily Doug, the tory brexiteers tend to believe their own propaganda about scots being subsidy junkies and they might give nicola a section30 in the hope the scots mps fukc off and leave the no deal tory brexiteer PM with a clear majority.

      a perfect storm ?

    223. Kill me with hammers says:

      I left scotland at a young age as i seen the writing on the wall with the thatcher era !
      Nothing much has changed scotland has still too many slow thinking retards within its borders , to keep on keeping on blaming the press in this day and age with internet free information available
      And all the evidence from sites like WOS and many others , it makes me so sad to think these things , but hey that is reality, i have however just got my old national insurance no so that i can come back next time and vote in indy 2 and help make scotland a normal country and bring my money back to a free scotland somfor fuck sake wake up ya bunch of retards ( probably not the best site for this post but hey i got it of my chest)

    224. Smallaxe says:

      Links: Pick and mix, my apologies if some may be a bit late or have been posted earlier.

      Tory ‘Dark Money’ Scandal Hits Banff & Buchan Tory MP;
      http://banffshireandbuchancoastsnp.info/2018/07/tory-dark-money-scandal-hits-banff.html

      Our NHS isn’t safe in Tory hands;
      https://www.snp.org/our_nhs_isn_t_safe_in_tory_hands

      Anger as BBC Scotland provides pundit with platform to attack SNP over NHS;
      http://indyref2.scot/anger-as-bbc-scotland-provides-pundit-with-platform-to-attack-snp-over-nhs

    225. Smallaxe says:

      The Orange Order in Scotland – Hate Group or Scottish Protestant Fraternity?;
      https://sputniknews.com/columnists/201807161066407625-scotland-hate-group-fraternity/

      Exclusive: Theresa May was warned by business leaders that her Brexit customs bill is ‘not fit for purpose’;
      http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-warned-business-leaders-brexit-customs-bill-is-not-fit-for-purpose-2018-7

      MPs get early holiday with Tories plotting against Theresa May and her Brexit strategy;
      http://archive.is/i2Drr

    226. Smallaxe says:

      House of Lords Communications Committee Inquiry “The Internet: to regulate or not to regulate?”. An overview of the evidence, Part 1;
      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mediapolicyproject/2018/07/16/house-of-lords-communications-committee-inquiry-the-internet-to-regulate-or-not-to-regulate-an-overview-of-the-evidence-part-1/

      The Brexit dividend: expect a lost decade of economic underperformance and political crisis;
      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/16/the-brexit-dividend-expect-a-lost-decade-of-economic-underperformance-and-political-crisis/

      POLITICO Brussels Playbook: Foes and friends — All eyes on Asia — Vestager vs. Google (again);
      https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/brussels-playbook/politico-brussels-playbook-foes-and-friends-all-eyes-on-asia-vestager-vs-google-again/

      Tory ‘sex pests’ NAMED & SHAMED: Explosive dossier accuses 36 Tories of sexual misconduct;
      https://newshoundsnewsround.wordpress.com/2018/07/16/tory-sex-pests-named-shamed-explosive-dossier-accuses-36-tories-of-sexual-misconduct/

    227. Smallaxe says:

      Liam Fox’s Brexit trade bill set to crush disabled people;
      http://archive.is/U98v1

      Theresa May rules out second Brexit referendum;
      http://archive.is/lK2nw

      Caribbean woman whose Windrush father served in Royal Air Force facing deportation from UK;
      http://archive.is/cI8q5

    228. Smallaxe says:

      Theresa May narrowly avoids House of Commons defeat as Tory split worsens;
      https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-caves-in-on-brexiteer-amendments-to-head-off-rebellion/

      I was slow finishing my paper round this morning but I hope that the links are still relevant to some Wingers.

      Enjoy a peaceful blether with each other.
      🙂

    229. Dr Jim says:

      Are the BBC getting extra money for all this news twisting over the Leave Campaign being guilty

      While he was found guilty of shooting the sheriff, claims that he did NOT shoot the deputy are correct says the BBC and here he is now to tell us his story of NOT shooting the deputy

    230. mountain shadow says:

      galamcennalath says:
      17 July, 2018 at 12:53 pm
      Mountain Shadow says:

      Break the rules, do whatever it takes to secure a Yes victory, because by the time the EC make a judgement, it will be too late to change it.

      I wouldn’t go that far myself.

      However, one thing is certain … the BritNats will take that approach to IndyRef2!

      We can use it as a tactic against them. Keep an eye on them, and call them out.

      We already know much of SiU’s money comes from people whose main residence is outside Scotland and they won’t even have a vote here. That is a disgusting attempt to undermine democracy. It’s ‘foreigners’ interfering in our affairs. We should milk it for all it’s worth!

      As they say, ‘follow the money’, much of it is bound to be dodgy and dirty!
      ————-
      But how do you keep an eye on them at the time? Once the vote has been made, it’s too late.

      Yes supporters need to get smarter and play dirty too. No point in playing fair and losing if the No side plays dirty and wins.

    231. galamcennalath says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      hope the scots mps fukc off and leave the no deal tory brexiteer PM with a clear majority

      That thought keeps coming back to me too. Oh they do value their beloved Greater England, but at what cost? They must know if they get shot of the northern ‘possessions’ then a right wing majority is almost guaranteed for the near future in England.

      The same can be said for NI but in a different way. Getting shot of NI means getting shot of the pesky land border with the EU.

      An England free of troublesome and costly (in their eyes) moderate-left Scots and inconvenient Irish, could follow their far right Brexit dream more easily. The temptation must be there!

    232. geeo says:

      Lets not forget, after the squirming desperation of WM tories this week, we have the Supreme Court next Tuesday/Wednesday next week with all the potential for dissolving the Union on grounds of illegal subjugation of Scots Law THAT brings…and the obvious knock on effects for the Withdrawal Bill should the SC make a Law based decision rather than the suspected political one we are perhaps assuming they will make.

    233. geeo says:

      Lets not forget, after the squirming desperation of WM tories this week, we have the Supreme Court next Tuesday/Wednesday next week with all the potential for dissolving the Union on grounds of illegal subjugation of Scots Law THAT brings…and the obvious knock on effects for the Withdrawal Bill should the SC make a Law based decision rather than the suspected political one we are perhaps assuming they will make.

    234. Petra says:

      @ SC at 1:46pm ……. “The Brexiteers already have enough signatures to bring her down.”

      I never realised that SC. They need a minimum of159 votes against her. Have they got that already?

    235. As a fan of John le Carré i have an understanding of the machinations of the secret services,

      if Putin/Russia was behind or at least aided Trump getting elected, why would they make a show of friendship thereby convincing critics of their collusion,

      surely some made up confrontation with a bit of hostile verbals would be a better way to deflect questions of collusion.

      Blaming Russia for every ill in the world is xenophobia promoted by britnat MSM and especially BBC.

    236. Capella says:

      @ Smallaxe – good link to Indyref2 article on the BBC Scotland radio smear of Nicola Sturgeon, as former Health Minister, on Sunday Morning. I listened to the broadcast in disbelief (not really) that such an obvious smear could be broadcast.

      Indyref2 notes that the programme was, quite unusually, not available on the iPlayer at 4.00 pm on Monday.

      It still isn’t available. I wonder why.

      Anger as BBC Scotland provides pundit with platform to attack SNP over NHS;
      http://indyref2.scot/anger-as-bbc-scotland-provides-pundit-with-platform-to-attack-snp-over-nhs

    237. Ghillie says:

      galamcennelath @ 2.44 pm

      Except they can’t afford it.

    238. Meg merrilees says:

      Petra

      They only need 48 letters expressing No Confidence in her as PM and as of this morning i think they had about 40, apparently.

      If the WM Government is successful in winning the vote tp take an early summer holiday, then they hope to stave off a vote of no confidence so I think the rebels are acting as quickly as possible to beat TM at her own game. The next 36 hours could be crucial!!!

    239. Thepnr says:

      @Meg merrilees

      I think if the government do have a vote to take an early holiday then they will lose it, even the DUP have said they will vote against it. Conclusion, there will be no vote and no early break up of Parliament.

    240. Meg merrilees says:

      Re the recent findings on Vote Leave overspend.

      The most recent news bulletin on the BBC said two groups had been fined – Vote leave and Beleave (?) who spent £700,000 without being able to say what they had spent it on.

      So, even thought these two ‘parties’ overspent and broke the rules no-one is accepting that this could have influenced the outcome of the referendum because….
      Remain spent £4,000,000 more on the whole campaign ( totally legally) so these illegal sums pale to insignificance against the total spend of Remain.

      Sorry, that’s not the point – the fact is that a substantial sum was spent ILLEGALLY!!!

      Why should that be cause for concern I hear as a distant reply…..

    241. Smallaxe says:

      Capella,

      Another two, for your perusal, my friend. For ‘them’, there are no rules.

      Have a peaceful and low blood pressured afternoon.
      😉

      Tommy Sheppard MP
      ?
      I asked Govt to commit that anyone who was on the board of or who worked for Vote Leave would cease to hold ministerial office or be on payroll. They refused. PM now turning a blind eye to illegality. Losing last remaining vestige of respect and integrity.;
      https://twitter.com/TommySheppard/status/1019189782528786432

      Brexit campaigners fined: what rules did they break and does it make the vote invalid?;
      https://theconversation.com/brexit-campaigners-fined-what-rules-did-they-break-and-does-it-make-the-vote-invalid-100119

    242. Macart says:

      An update on the EU Japan trade deal.

      HERE

      “Once ratified by parliaments on both sides, the EU-Japan trade deal will eliminate about 99% of tariffs on Japanese goods, including on cars, from the eighth year after the deal is implemented, with tariffs scrapped on car parts immediately.”

      Dawn should break through the clouds (for some) on the significance for UK and Brexit any second….

    243. yesindyref2 says:

      Following on from K1’s stability comment, and others, I think – now is the time to emphasise the instability of the UK Government and the Tories, and the UK Parliament itself.

      Let others draw comparisons with the Scottish Government / parliament. And don’t mention the Independence, I think I got away with it!

      I thought my comment on a quiet article in the Herald would get deleted, most adventurous in terms of language I’ve ever posted there I think. But it remains:

      The UK and its people are screwed“.

    244. yesindyref2 says:

      Ooops Caramba Apocalypse! Talking about UK instability, here we go again:

      Theresa May facing Commons defeat as Labour set to back rebel Tory customs union move

      http://archive.is/5fyZN

      Mmm, time for a dance I think:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV1eKphHFjY

    245. Thepnr says:

      The EU currently has 36 trade agreements with other countries around the world as well as 45 partially agreed (which includes Canada). In additiomn there are another 8 pending (including Japan) and a futher 21 currently in negotiation.

      So in total 110 countries have either agreed are or close to agreeing a trade deal with the EU. How in the hell Liam Fox believes that the UK can get any better a deal with these countries than the EU has managed is simply ludicrous.

      As for Japan, just why they would they continue manufacturing cars here when they can relocate to the EU of even back to Japan with no barriers to trade any longer for cars sold into Europe?

      This Brexit is undoubtably a massive castrofuck of the highest order. This pathetic excuse for a government has made the UK a laughing stock and more importantly will bring a great deal of hardship to the ordinary person.

      The main Brexiteers won’t let that concern them, Boris Johnson resigns from the cabinet though he is still being paid as an MP and yet he walks straight back into his “job” as a columnist at the Torygraph being paid £275,000 a year for a weekly column. Total disgrace.

      As reported today many Tory MP’s are quietly saying amongst themselves that hundreds of thousands of job losses in the UK is a price worth paying to escape the evil clutches of EU laws.

      These are laws that better protect all of us, FFS it’s saddens me that so many people really are that stupid to support a party that will strip them of any remaining dignity they might have. The same goes for No votes, I am ashamed not of them but for them.

    246. Iain mhor says:

      Now that I’ve taken my anti-crabbit pills, I’ll chip in something useful anent leafleting in my experience.

      1000 houses in a scheme/estate, call it what you will – takes two days of approx 4.5 hours each. That’s a reasonable pace for one person below averagely fit.
      It can be done in a oner by a fit person going hard all day, but no point knocking your pan in. The 4.5 hours includes short breaks for a smoko or drink. It’s thirsty work in summer heat.
      Your mileage may vary. For flats, it’s surprisingly the same time, occasionally quicker as long as their are lifts – since there are no driveways to negotiate (see below)
      Respect no-flyers/junk mail signage, of which there will be a fair amount. Try not to cut across gardens/front of homes unless there is clear hard standing between houses. Yes, up and down drives takes a lot longer, but householders seldom appreciate people passing their front windows and trampling lawns.
      Big laddies are fine on their own, but do try and take a buddy if only for the blether and halving the workload.
      Unfortunately very rural/ farms/ small holdings is very labour & fuel intensive. But there are ways to facilitate expenses via this tip:
      If you’re remotely on talking terms with your local cairry-oot shop/restaurant – ask them if they want any flyers delivered while you’re at it. For a nominal fee it can cover your printing expenses and/or fuel, a piece and a bottle of juice. Win-win – Unless you’re of the opinion your leaflets shouldn’t go with other flyers.

      My apologies for prior ill-tempered rants.

    247. Macart says:

      @Thepnr and yesindyref2

      Pretty much on both counts. It really, REALLY, didn’t have to be this way.

      Their choice. We at least still have one. We have an out from this epic collapse of UK politics in Scotland. The lifeboat just needs folks go ahead to launch and there’s more than willing hands to bring as many on board as we can.

      Worth a thought about now I’d say.

    248. Meindevon says:

      SNP mps doing a grand job right now in the House on the Parliament channel speaking up for Scotland re Trade Deals

    249. Dr Jim says:

      @Meindevon 4.42pm

      Yes they are but the Labour party are helping the Tories stitch Scotland up with the (not normally) language

    250. Thepnr says:

      Voting now on Clause 4 which would require regulations made in Westminster on devolved areas to have consent of the SG.

      Wonder how this one will go?

    251. Petra says:

      Loads of great informative posts on here today. Great stuff. Thanks folks.

      ………………………….

      @ Meg @ 3:33pm ….”48 no confidence letters.”

      I knew about the no confidence letters Meg and heard today that there’s around 50 hard Brexiteers, so they’d get that through. However I thought following that it went to a vote and they need, or she needs, 159 votes. Around half of the party one way or another. And then if they can’t reach the 159 votes they can’t repeat the action within the following 12 months, so they’d be stuck with her. In saying that by the looks of the back-stabbing vultures hanging around, the calibre, when she out things can only get worse. And then there’s Corbyn of course. Dearie me.

      I may have got this all wrong Meg, if so someone will correct me.

    252. Thepnr says:

      My question was tongue in cheek, gubbed again as expected 🙁

    253. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      I saw that on the BBC News ticker during the night, and had heard nothing about it before – not surprisingly I guess in the UK anti-EU media.

      First thoughts are it makes it harder for the UK to have a trade deal with Japan, a big economy, and certainly to have a better deal than the EU has.

      But it also has defence ramifications. The UK is looking at the next Gen fighter to replace Typhoon (which is what I’d call 4.5 Gen) in the future, calling it Tempest. It’s looking for partners, but already seems frozen out of a German-French effort. It’s looking to the likes of Sweden (Saab / Gripen), and others, but also Japan – that’s the EU trade deal Japan. It looks like the UK may be collaborating less with the US, maybe reading the tea leaves and runes of Trump and even NATO.

      That deal is not going to help that, and I doubt it’s the only EU trade deal in the pipeline.

      https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-unveils-new-next-generation-fighter-jet-called-tempest/

      It’s not just the aircraft itself, as a partner the UK gets to help build the aircraft with that potential economic benefit (jobs and revenues). The F35 for instance, the UK gets to build 15% equivalent of all F35s – current orders expected to be over 3,000. The equivalent of 450 full F35s, compared to the 138 the UK is planned to order, and its initial development investment. A big profit, plus kudos.

      The UK does face the danger of isolationism, rather than global conquest. The EU is quite frankly, a bigger market than the UK, worldwide, and of more geopolitical significance – apart from the GIUK gap.

    254. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      Great information, thanks for the research.

      The UK is going to be in a real bad place.

    255. galamcennalath says:

      Ghillie says:

      Except they can’t afford it.

      Yes, that is the flip argument. Politically the English right would perhaps be stronger without Scotland, but economically it would be suicide.

      However, right now English Nationalism is causing them to embark on economic suicide for mainly ideological reasons. The media portray some of the swivel eyed far right nutters as believing Brexit can be an economic success, I don’t believe they are motivated by dreams of making the UK rich. I think they are motivated by blind nationalism and / or making a fast buck for themselves and cronies.

      In those terms, securing their England more tightly might make dumping Scotland a proposition.

      We will all find out soon enough.

    256. Douglas Blair says:

      rogesque says:
      16 July, 2018 at 7:44 pm
      Weird O/T thought.
      How long before a dishwater “perfume” company start pushing an aroma called ‘Novichok’?
      Let’s face it, we already have Opium, Poison, Killer and probably a few more distatefull ones.

      How about an odour cologne called “Trump”

    257. yesindyref2 says:

      @galamcennalath
      Well, if the 35 SNP MPs make the difference to the Tories losing a vote tonight I think it is, there – will – be – Mayhem! Eff off Scotland will be the loud cry, so we can get our Commons majority.

      Mmm, Bye Now!

    258. yesindyref2 says:

      OK sod it I’m in the mood so I might as well follow through. Putting things together a little, with the EU-Japan deal being a trigger, let’s look at defence opportunites for Independent Scotland. Not popular with some people, but defence, defence collaborations, defence sales, and defence profits are going to happen anyway, and there’s still money and jobs to be made. So, what has Scotland got?

      It has avionics and a surprisingly active aerospace industry. Which means iScotland could be involved in collaborations with Sweden, but also the EU. Many in the UK well, let’s be blunt, England, don’t like France and Germany, in spite of Eurofighter which involved Italy being a success, the Eurofighter being one of the top 3 or 6 rated fighters in the world depending on who you believe, with the Gripen fairly recently coming into that category because of the mod to the C/D and incorporation into the E/F of over the horizon radar up to 100km launch of air to air missiles, 60km deadly range. Which kit is made in Edinburgh. Ho hum.

      Well, we don’t have the same prejudice against France and Germany, nor generally the same isolationist supremacy thinkstance of the rest of the UK did I mention England? So we stand to gain, not lose, from Independence, whereas the rUK could lose out as it’s really pissing people off.

      A bit incoherent? What do you expect for 5p?

    259. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2 5.13

      So much for punching above their weight and a bright Brexity future.

      The Japan – EU free trade deal is pretty massive, with huge ramifications for manufacturers in the UK. No way UK gov weren’t aware and highly dubious that the entire media were blind to its existence. Why such a deal has been kept so quiet from the public? Welllll…. As I said previously, squeaky bum time for Ms May.

      The quotes from the main players throughout that Guardian piece are very telling and they’re literally spelling out near future global relationships.

      Personally, I don’t think there’s enough popcorn out there at this point. 😎

    260. Legerwood says:

      Macart, Thepnr, yesindyref2

      Trade deals.

      One of the trade deals currently being negotiated by the EU is with India but the UK has been a barrier to getting the deal finalised. The EU hopes that post- Brexit with the UK gone they can finalise the deal. This article from April 2018
      https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-eu-hopes-for-india-trade-deal-talks/

      If the UK wants a deal with India then the Indians will want the cap on visas lifted. What price immigration then?

      F35 fighters. Recent CH4 series ‘Inside the American Embassy – in London’sin the last programme, aired a week past Monday, the F35 deal featured quite a bit. At one point the Ambassador met with some of his officials to discuss the deal and whether it was a great deal for the USA because Trump wants Great deals and the Ambassador was not sure if 15% for the UK was a great deal for USA.

      The officials said it was a great deal for USA but if they had said No then I think the Ambassador would have told his pal Trump to withdraw from the deal, or threaten to, so they could get better terms. And we all know Trump’s approach to keeping to signed and sealed deals.

      Given the dependence of the UK on getting those aircraft they would be over a barrel in any renegotiation. Knowing Trump he could still threaten to back out.

    261. Ken500 says:

      Looks like another GE. So the Tories can lose.

      They will try and sneak away for three months. Not likely. A GE in October?

      Just more chancers will come in. Sanctioning and starving people. Causing chaos. Just a bunch of crooks.

      Anither IndyRef when the numbers are right. Vote SNP/SNP. Vote Independence. No more Tories unionists to ruin Scotland.

    262. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart
      Yes, there’s going to be a popcornhose ban soon enough, better get some popcornrain barrels to store it in.

      @Legerwood
      Indeed, and India is a massive market, even now, let alone the future.

      The F35 is a curious one, not surprisingly there were delays and delays and performance problems which took a lot of money, and there’s a fair chance without the support of the UK the Yanks would have cancelled it (as they did consider for the littoral program). So they do owe the UK but hey, if it’s not written down or can be lawyered out of it, it’s not worth the goodwill it’s not written on. Wouldn’t happen straight away though, there’s too many orders though not all of them firm of course, more letters of intent sort of thing, and order in batches as the unit price goes down and down.

      That suicide is painless
      It brings on many changes
      I can take or leave ***UK*** if I please
      That game of life is just vote YES.

      With apologies for any political incorrectness, and to the good people of the UK whoever you are. But as I said before “The UK and its people are screwed”.

    263. ronnie anderson says:

      VIP American arrives on Scottish soil & receives a warm welcome, no Fluffies fluttering aboot and no announcements from the American Consulate aboot fraternisation wie the locals .

    264. galamcennalath says:

      Part of the current media smoke and mirrors is to use the phrase ‘Tory rebels’. One minute they are talking about the far right über Brexiteers, the next they refer to Remainers who cling to their principles.

    265. Thepnr says:

      The vote taking place now is the big one, new clause 18 which would require the government to stay in the Customs Union if no new trade deal agreement is reached by January.

      Apparently Tory whips are threatening their MP’s with a General Election if they refuse to support the government.

      https://twitter.com/ParlyApp/status/1019270240180604934?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    266. Abulhaq says:

      If the members of the Scottish parliament were true democrats they’d end this shameful Westminster farce by declaring independence. Scots did not vote for this or does that count for nothing? Should things possibly get even worse, the SNP should at the very least quit Westminster never to return. We need to rewrite ‘the rules’. We owe this system nothing.

    267. Brian Powell says:

      People talk as if there are just Newspaper headlines and journalists, and Government Ministers and the policy they produce.

      In fact hundreds of people produce the papers and thousands of civil servants deliver the policies.

      All of these workers and civil servants share equally for creating the Brexit chaos.

    268. Thepnr says:

      All over, Government won on new clause 18 by 307-301.

      The rebels failed to rebel. Wankers.

      @Macart

      It’s only sensible advice and the EU are not stupid. They see the writing on the wall for any kind of deal.

    269. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      Ayup.

      The boorach can begin anytime now.

    270. Thepnr says:

      With that vote, we might just have moved closer to Indyref2.

      https://twitter.com/AngusMacNeilSNP/status/1019276960395034626

    271. Dan Huil says:

      A No Deal still on.

    272. Thepnr says:

      Four Labour MP’s voted with the government to defeat their own party whip that unless a deal is done we should remain in the Customs Union. Without their help the government would have been defeated and almost certainly could have been brought down.

      The hall of shame is occupied by Frank Field (Labour – Birkenhead), Kate Hoey (Labour – Vauxhall), John Mann (Labour – Bassetlaw) and Graham Stringer (Labour – Blackley and Broughton).

      They are a disgrace to their party, I just hope that more Scots become aware of how some within the the party that they support carry on. They are finished in Scotland.

    273. schrodingers cat says:

      Petra says:
      I knew about the no confidence letters Meg and heard today that there’s around 50 hard Brexiteers, etc
      ——————

      It is true that if treeza were to fight them she would need about 159 to win, thing is, no one wants her job at the moment, people have been pointing out for years that the eu wont let them have their cake and eat it, there is no deal or a solution to the NI border problem. If there was, the tories who recently ressigned would have said something. they didnt. indeed none of them said anything. No, they will wait a few weeks until the actual brexit deal is known.

      then they will challenge her, at which point she will resign, if indeed she doesnt resign first. there is only so much abuse a person can take and treeza isnt a strong leader. I cant see her fighting the brexiteers.

      the point I was making about the new tory leadership election will only be open to those who support no deal since no tory mp will support a candidate who wants to accept the eu deal.

      that is why I believe there will be another GE.

      the final amended white paper will be emailed to brussels and while the mps will be on holiday, the uk civil servants doing the negotiating will not. to that end, treezas job is very nearly finished

      they will prepare 2 treaties, one no deal and one with the final deal, and westminster will know the contents soon enough.

    274. Still Positive says:

      I can’t quite believe the drama that’s been unfolding this afternoon.

      The only good news is that they voted to remain in the European Medicines Regulator and indyref is now a real probability.

    275. yesindyref2 says:

      Tories 1-0 UK (FT)

    276. Patrick Roden says:

      There’s always been the feeling, that when the Brexit realities start to kick in, some of our ‘less well informed’ people will begin to re-think their stance on Independence.

      I think we are starting to see the Brexit realities sink in over the past few days.

      leaks about Tory MP’s saying that the loss of hundreds of thousands of jobs is a price worth paying for Brexit, will certainly make people sit up and take notice.

      We can expect the MSM to try every trick n the book to hide the realities of the unfolding shambles, but they can only keep this lie going for to long.

      There’s nothing like the threat of loosing your job, to getting people thinking carefully about who is governing us.

    277. schrodingers cat says:

      i think the eu are reading the same runes as us regarding no deal

      thing is, the rebel tories cant be seen to be interfering with treezas white paper too much or risk getting blamed for the failure of the negotiations, even if that is what they are aiming for.

      now the white paper is finalised, to a large extent treezas job is done. she has officially run out of long grass. this white paper is it, the magic bean 3rd option.

      the eu is watching the hoc at the moment, no question, and the first tweet is to issue an emergency warning concerning no deal

      it will be the tweets from barnier in the next few days which will decide when treeza resigns and when the feeding frenzy kicks off.

    278. schrodingers cat says:

      I think corbyn will be pleased he failed, this white paper now is the property of treeza and he will avoid blame when it goes pete tong.

      but a new no deal tory PM calling an GE will force him of the fence. his come uppance is in the post

    279. yesindyref2 says:

      I see what other posters mean, this will get reported as

      “May beats off the attack of the Rebel Clones”

      without specifying WHICH group of rebels it is. Well done May, she’s so strong and stable. Neigh, I say.

    280. brewsed says:

      Public announcement:

      Would Scottish passengers please make their way to the lifeboats now?

    281. Craig P says:

      When Theresa May described a ‘smooth, seamless’ Brexit, I can’t have been the only one imagining one of those jobbies that just ghosts itself round the U-bend and doesn’t even need wiping up afterwards.

      Instead it’s turning into a bit of a hedgehog.

    282. Thepnr says:

      So who is this Frank Field MP (Labour – Birkenhead) that today voted with the Tories (last night as well) along with three of his colleagues to vote down an amendment that would have ensured we remained in the Customs Union?

      I’d heard of him but knew little about him, Wiki has helped and what I read doesn’t surprise me in the slightest.

      Two nights before the Conservative Party leadership election in November 1990, he visited then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher at 10 Downing Street. He advised her that her time as Prime Minister was drawing to a close and that she should back John Major to take over the role.

      His reason for doing so was that he felt that her Conservative colleagues would not tell her straight that she could not win a leadership contest. Following this meeting, he was smuggled out of Downing Street’s back door. Two days later Margaret Thatcher supported John Major for the post, and Major went on to become Prime Minister…

      He is a member of the advisory board of the free-market think tank Reform, and of the generally conservative but also “broad church” magazine Standpoint. In May 2008, he said that Margaret Thatcher “is certainly a hero” and that “I still see Mrs T from time to time – I always call her ‘Mrs T’, when I talk to her.”

      Although there have been attempts to get him to defect to the Conservatives, they have been without success.[30] In 2008, Frank Field was named as the 100th most-influential right-winger in the United Kingdom by the Daily Telegraph.

      Field supports the return of national service to tackle growing unemployment and instil “a sense of order and patriotism” in Britain’s young men and women.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Field_(British_politician)

      Red Tories eh! What were the good people of Birkenhead thinking.

    283. stewartb says:

      Patrick Roden @ 7:24 pm

      You wrote: “There’s always been the feeling, that when the Brexit realities start to kick in, some of our ‘less well informed’ people will begin to re-think their stance on Independence.”

      Agreed, that has been the ‘feeling’, but hopefully this can be given a big extra push.

      This is now surely the time for the leadership of the SNP and Greens, and the Scottish Government, to pull out every trick, to devise and exploit every possible opportunity, to communicate with the Scottish electorate on the full nature of this Brexit shambles in Westminster and its implications – its threat not only to our Scottish parliament (the ‘power grab’) but much more personally, its direct threats to the future economic well-being of their families.

      Time has come for a step change in efforts to raise public awareness, preparatory to announcing indyref2. If not now, when?

    284. Dr Jim says:

      Scotlands media will report nothing happened today

    285. msean says:

      Whatever else happens,we all now know we were right about calling Labour red tories.

    286. Robert Peffers says:

      Here’s another important factor on todays Commons vote, (from BBC Scotland):-

      The Liberal Democrats’ chief whip says he “messed up” by allowing party leader Sir Vince Cable and his predecessor Tim Farron to skip Monday night’s knife-edge vote on Brexit.

      They could have cut the government’s winning margin on the Customs Bill from three votes to just one.
      Mr Farron said he had “called it wrong” and was sorry for what had happened. And chief whip Alistair Carmichael said he had expected the vote to be “lost by hundreds”.

    287. yesindyref2 says:

      @Thepnr
      I’ve a weird feeling Frank Field was one MP who supported the SNP amendment(s) during the Scotland Act when they pushed for FFA, but can’t quickly find any reference. I did find this which might support that vague memory though:

      http://www.frankfield.co.uk/latest-news/news.aspx?p=102868

      Each assembly — for England, Wales and Northern Ireland — should have the powers that have been, or are about to be granted to the Scottish Parliament. The remaining functions would be reserved for a senate (which would replace the present House of Lords). Foreign affairs, defence and the remaining Exchequer powers would be exercised by a senate common to all four nations.

      He’s an oddball which doesn’t make him a bad person.

    288. schrodingers cat says:

      Patrick Roden
      “There’s always been the feeling, that when the Brexit realities start to kick in, some of our ‘less well informed’ people will begin to re-think their stance on Independence.”
      ————-

      if a ge is announced we will have no choice but to go through with it.
      a likely no deal tory victory in oct doesnt give us time to hold indyref2 before xmas

      if we hold indyref2 on the 5th of may, after the 30th of march, the effects of the hard brexit will really kick in during the last 5 weeks of our campaign.

      there is nothing quite like supermarkets running out of food to focus minds

      we should produce some better together leaflets with the famous tattie soup recipe

      1. boil water
      2. place tattie in water for 60 secs
      3. remove said tattie and pat dry
      4. mmm enjoy

      nb, with due care and diligence, the said tattie can last upto 6 months 🙂

    289. yesindyref2 says:

      Bye, bye hiss, European Pie
      Drove my MPs to the lobby but the lobby was dry
      And them good ole boys were drinking whiskey and rye
      Singin’ this’ll be the day UK dies
      This’ll be the day UK dies

    290. Thepnr says:

      @stewartb

      “…the full nature of this Brexit shambles in Westminster and its implications – its threat not only to our Scottish parliament (the ‘power grab’) but much more personally, its direct threats to the future economic well-being of their families.”

      I agree 100% we should be shouting this from the rooftops because the danger to peoples livelihoods is all too real. I too hope that the SNP and in fact all that support Independence take every opportunity to warn people of what is coming down the line as we stumble from crisis to crisis being led by the blind and the ignorant.

      We don’t need another date for a second Independence referendum before we start campaigning. We can start right now and hopefully escape the madness that is surely heading our way with Theresa May and the Brexiteers running the show.

      As brewsed said please make your way to the lifeboats now.

    291. Petra says:

      You tell them Anna….. Hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk.

      ‘Anti-Brexit Tory MP Anna Soubry asks: who runs the country? – (Theresa May or Rees-Mogg?’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN1WrjlWLXQ

      …………………………………….

      I’m not a fan of Anna Soubry, far from it, but she’s looking hellish and I heard that she collapsed in the Commons last week and was taken to hospital…. With Brexititis no doubt plus death threats. I wonder how Nicola is getting on? The strain of it all must be horrendous.

      ……………………………………..

      @ Thepnr says at 7:10 pm …. ”Four Labour MP’s voted with the government to defeat their own party whip that unless a deal is done we should remain in the Customs Union. Without their help the government would have been defeated and almost certainly could have been brought down. The hall of shame is occupied by Frank Field (Labour – Birkenhead), Kate Hoey (Labour – Vauxhall), John Mann (Labour – Bassetlaw) and Graham Stringer (Labour – Blackley and Broughton). They are a disgrace to their party, I just hope that more Scots become aware of how some within the the party that they support carry on. They are finished in Scotland.”

      I wonder if that’s the same rat-pack that supported the Tories last night? T May won by 3 votes and when the Lib-dems were being castigated for not turning up and voting (Cable and Farron) they said it didn’t matter, their two votes would have made no difference, and blamed Labour (4 politicians) for the outcome.

    292. Thepnr says:

      @Petra

      There were three Labour MP’s that voted with the government last night and all 3 did so again today. Field, Hoey and Stringer.

      Without these Labour votes the Tories would likely be toast now.

    293. Petra says:

      Unbelievable Thepnr!!! Bl**dy hellish in fact. I wonder if that’ll be front page news tomorrow? In the Daily Rag and so on.

    294. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I can remember, as a teenaged schoolboy, going to bed at the height of the Cuban missile crisis in 1961-2, absolutely unsure as to whether or not I would waken-up in the morning.

      Thanksfully, John F Kennedy stood firm and Kruschev backed down. I have never felt that fear since.

      However, now in my eighth decade, with this half-wit in the White House, I am beginning to have fears again. Trump is, to my mind mentally sick and ought to be removed from office.

      The problem is: have we any guarantee we will not be saddled with someone just as bad?

      As for the UK, at least, I am more confident than ever that we are in the final days of this political entity. Freedom beckons, we simply have to get out of this totally disfunctional and crazy union.

    295. Rock says:

      Dan Huil says:
      17 July, 2018 at 1:07 pm

      “The so-called united kingdom is a laughing stock.”

      The biggest laughing stock of all is the 311 year old English colony of Scotland.

      The majority of “sovereign” Scots have no shame in remaining a colony and they will prevail for ever.

      The African colonies, with poor and uneducated populations, got rid of their “masters” in less than a hundred years.

      They must have had higher expectations of themselves than poor “sovereign” Scots.

    296. Thepnr says:

      For those that don’t use twitter, from the Rev’s feed, Robert Peston said from a “well placed Tory source” that defeat for the government today would have meant a no confidence vote tomorrow and a GE vote in two weeks.

      https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1019291556157804547

    297. Fred says:

      An English chap hit by the hose-pipe ban got very aeriated on tonight’s ITN News & demanded access to Scotland’s water! Tough Titty!

    298. ahundredthidiot says:

      Fred@9:06

      Not tough titty mate

      50p per litre please

    299. Thepnr says:

      I just can’t see this government lasting until Brexit day in March 2019. By December May will have to give the EU more concessions on her White paper which will spark more resignations or call the whole thing off altogether.

      The weak and wobbly house of cards will come crashing down and the UK will be left begging for an extension to Article 50 so as to be given time to get it’s house in order.

      The whole Brexit malarkey is a total shambles as well as being a total embarrassment. The silver lining is that as far as Scottish Independence is concerned then it really couldn’t get any better.

      A second referendum next year looking more likely by the minute, a Yes majority in that referendum also looking more likely.

    300. Robert Peffers says:

      @stewartb says: 17 July, 2018 at 8:10 pm:

      ” … This is now surely the time for the leadership of the SNP and Greens, and the Scottish Government, to pull out every trick, to devise and exploit every possible opportunity, to communicate with the Scottish electorate on the full nature of this Brexit shambles in Westminster and its implications.”

      For the love of God! Just when is it going to dawn upon some Wingers that the SG/Greens & Scottish Government have been doing just that for as long as I can remember and, in the case of the Greens, since they were formed as a party.

      The General public in Scotland generally do not get their information from the likes of Wings, the Holyrood SG website or the Westminster Parliament home pages. The general public mostly have never heard of the Wee Ginger Dug or the several other really good websites we political animals frequent.

      If you ask Joe or Josephine Public who AUOB are they’d probably think it was a new Boy Band or, because it starts with the letter, “A”. a branch of the Aberdeen FC supporters Club.

      The SG/the SNP MPs and MSPs, the SNP paid official and their press officers work their socks off. Press reports are sent out but no one can make the MSM, SMSM and Broadcasters publish them or even use them to produce other than SNPveryBAD! articles.

      Which is exactly why Wings and other organs exist and it is why there is a Grassroots YES Movement and why AUOB was begun for the simple reason that the false-flag Westminster Establishment operators have infiltrated all the existing Indy supporting organs. Hence the, “All Under One Banner”, so as to incorporate all indy minded people from all, and none, organisations to give their support. No labels and no discrimination if you support Indy you qualify.

      We read the false-flag commenters, or rather we generally ignore them, after making them expose themselves, (Oops! No, NOT THAT kind of exposing themselves), here on Wings.

      Yet there is always someone, whether deliberately or not, who will, as you have just done here, make any story into, “It’s all really the fault of Nicola Sturgeon, the SG, the SNP”, or something along those lines.

      Yet this particular story is really all about the Westminster Tory Government, ably aided by just enough Labour and LibDem MPs, to force through a vote at Westminster.

      Yet here you are, and it matters not if deliberately or unintentionally, slanting the story to be that it is the failings of Nicola, the SG/SNP.

      Even if you did not intend it to read that way, you have slanted the blame from the Establishment onto the SG/SNP/Greens and thus away from the Tories and other unionists that make up the parliamentary wing of the Westminster unionist Establishment.

    301. mr thms says:

      This result of this vote caught my attention..

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44854597

      “Another amendment, to ensure the UK is out of the EU’s VAT regime, was backed by 303 to 300, with a Tory rebellion of 11.”

      It is a significant decision for Scotland.

      https://reformscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/The-VAT-opportunity.pdf

      “The VAT opportunity”

      “The next stage towards Devo Plus should be further devolution of important taxes. Perhaps the more immediate prospect is the devolution of VAT following Brexit. The only reason that it was not devolved at the same time as income tax was the UK’s membership of the EU which insists on common rates of VAT across member states. Indeed, the Scottish Conservative Party’s official submission to the Smith Commission stated: “Were it not illegal under EU law, we would have been inclined to recommend that VAT be devolved to the Scottish Parliament”

      A bit drastic for the UK government to lose the EU referendum and trigger Article 50, so that VAT can be devolved to Scotland.

      Unless VAT is just the start?

    302. Scott says:

      “Vote YES to raise the minimum wage and ban zero-contracts”

      That simple message would have a much better chance of convincing Labour’s NO voters to switch to YES than anything to do with Brexit.

    303. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB2GboGOuTI

      Does this mean Japan has to comply with the immutable four freedoms?

    304. Robert Peffers says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist says: 17 July, 2018 at 10:25 pm:

      “Does this mean Japan has to comply with the immutable four freedoms?”

      Well that must be the most idiotic comment for at least a month.
      Since when was a trade agreement between a country and the EU the same as becoming a member state of the EU?

    305. Douglas Blair says:

      Back from Edinburgh by train. Once again on the train from Glasgow this morning folk reading the free Metro. Tory propaganda freely given out by Abellio Scotrail. This should stop or they provide the National free of charge so passengers can choose.

    306. @Socrates MacSporran

      Does Trump meeting with North Korea and Russia make a nuclear war more or less likely,

      Soviets put missiles in Cuba to put pressure on America to pull America`s `secret` missiles out of Turkey,

      Soviets pulled their nukes out of Cuba but in return America pulled their nukes out of Turkey and promised never to invade Cuba.

    307. Legerwood says:

      Details of how the Mps voted on the customs union amendment tonight. Sorry won’t archive perhaps the graphics in the article is stopping it.

      https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/jun/20/eu-withdrawal-bill-grieve-meaningful-vote-amendment

      All Tories representing Scottish constituencies voted as you might expect.

    308. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, I’ve just spent time forward planning ordering up stock of “raw” materials well in advance and ready for the Brexit disaster March 29th 2019.

      I’ll bet a lot of businesses haven’t even thought of it – yet. Particularly small ones, particularly those with confidence in the shambolic Tories to order up a pissup in a next-door 24/7 fully stocked brewery.

      I have a lot of complaints about the EU I won’t bother listing, was hit as a business a few years ago but recovering, voted Remain not just for my business but for Scotland (and the UK), would vote Remain again. The EU is not perfect by a long stretch.

      Even if a Leave voter though, the few years after Brexit will see a lot of businesses fail, and probably the whole UK economy, IMF bailouts, begging for help, high unemployment but at the same time shortages of labour both skilled and unskilled. Inflation like there’s no tomorrow. Probably deaths directly as a result, and poverty beyond the imagination for many.

      It’s a disaster.

    309. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ Peffers

      Are you being thick on purpose? My tongue was firmly in my cheek in reference to how many comments have harped on that the UK – when NO LONGER A MEMBER OF THE EU – cannot have desired access to free trade without freedom of movement of people.

      And I hoped that the answer to my question would be ‘no’, as this deal with Japan wasn’t in fact very broad at all.

      Watch your fucking tone, Robin.

    310. ben madigan says:

      @brewsed who said:
      17 July, 2018 at 7:54 pm
      Public announcement:

      Would Scottish passengers please make their way to the lifeboats now?

      It now seems the right time to refresh your memories of the new Brexit Tube map!
      Enjoy!
      https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2016/12/01/brexit-circus-on-the-new-euro-line/

    311. Footsoldier says:

      See Robert Peffers 10.13pm. I agree with Robert and Stewartb, both make valid comments, neither is wrong.

      I still stand by my previous comments that the SNP high heid yins need to up the whole PR game and I say that as an active member for over 50 years.

      My particular beef has long been that when live on air, SNP politicians do not take the opportunity to get smart negative bullet points in but tend to use bland terminology with endless detail that becomes a complete yawn to the listener. This is our main chance when on live air.

      For example, when discussing pensions I have never heard any SNP politician say that the UK pension is among the lowest in the EU. There are scores of these misses. OK it may be edited out later but if live some will hear it. We are invariably on the defensive and often quite boring. Where are our attack dogs, like a terrier, never give up.

      The Tories are absolutely brilliant at it. No matter what is being discussed, they always get a few short sharp negatives in about the opposition. In many cases this probably comes from business training on presentation skills.

      Analyse a few SNP speeches that go out live and see how many missed opportunities there are. Might be worth setting up some research on this.

    312. Patrick Roden says:

      There’s one thing that will make everything else pale into significance and that’s the Financial Services sector in the City of London.

      The whole UK economy would be in ruin if that sector was to fail.

      The reason I mention this, is because I was watching a live BBC broadcast covering the opening of the UK Parliament (with the Black Rod, and Denis Skinner making a derogatory comment thing.)

      While we waited with baited breath, the BBC was also getting soundings from Brussels, re Brexit.

      As they interviewed one guy, he pointed to a building behind him and mentioned that this was (I think the term he used was ‘Clearing House’) for all Financial Services transactions in and out of the EU area.

      He added that at that time, these transactions did not get taxed (presumably because they were good for EU services)

      He then asked a great question: Why would the EU continue to provide this service to the UK free of charge, if we were no longer part of the European Financial Services area.

      I kid you not the following happened:

      Immediately the lady from the BBC (sorry I can’t remember who it was) held her ear and said to the guy “oh sorry, I have to interrupt you now and go back to the Houses of Parliament where I believe something is happening”

      At this point the guy was cut off and an almost empt ‘House of Commons’ appeared on screen with nothing happening at all!

      Did they cut back to the financial expert to hear more about what might be a hugely important development?

      Did we hell!

      I sat and looked at this shot of nothing happening and not a thing more was said about the possibility that the City of London’s main source of income might get taxed into oblivion.

      Anyone know where we can buy popcorn in bulk?

    313. Meg merrilees says:

      Reading that the Lib Dems goofed on monday night and we still have a Tory Government by a majority of 3 votes.
      Seems Alastair Carmichael slipped up and failed to get Tim Fallon and Vince Cable to vote so that would have given a majority of one – ah, but wait – Jo Swinson is off for maternity
      reasons and did a deal with another Tory MP that he would abstain to balance her absence.

      Seems she stayed away and he voted or else it would have been a draw.

      Never trust a Tory

    314. schrodingers cat says:

      Reluctant Nationalist says:
      @ Peffers

      Are you being thick on purpose? My tongue was firmly in my cheek
      =========================

      the problem with written language is the absence of volume, contrast and tonality control

      perhaps if you overlaid your text onto iambic pentameter such nuances would be more evident.

      failing that, there are always emoji’s 🙂

    315. Danny says:

      Please don’t disturb Westminster.

      They are making a complete Horlicks of Brexit, which is all good news for our IndyRef2.

    316. ronnie anderson says:

      Patrick Roden Ask a pigeon keeper the buy the beans in bulk

    317. Danny says:

      As for Jo Swinson and this “pairing” with mix up.

      I think “Pairing” should be outlawed. This went on for years with the Labour Party and the Tories.

      All designed to fit around the cosy relationships they have at Westminster.

      If you can’t turn up and vote the that is your problem. It shouldn’t then fall on an opposition MP to help you out.

      Westminster is a Putrid Midden. Time for ALL Scots MPs to come home,,,,,for good.

    318. stewartb says:

      Robert Peffers @ 10:13 pm

      You wrote: “Yet there is always someone, whether deliberately or not, who will, as you have just done here, make any story into, “It’s all really the fault of Nicola Sturgeon, the SG, the SNP”, or something along those lines.”

      I strongly contest and deny your claim! There is nothing in my post, either implicit or explicit, that is critical.

      I wrote: “… to pull out every trick, to devise and exploit every possible opportunity …”

      My point: if there is any additional device; any potential opportunity; any headroom left in terms of resource available to party and SG leaderships, then we may now have reached that point in time regarding Brexit, given all that’s going down in Westminster, when these should be used.

      The key issue I express is concerned with choosing the ‘right’ time to raise the temperature not one of finding fault – very different things. It seems to me that the credibility of the ‘Westminster’ system is as low now as I can ever remember.

    319. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers Cat @ 11.14
      What’s iambic pentametre ??
      🙂

    320. Smallaxe says:

      Tonight on @RTUKnews I discussed Brexit votes, the ‘13 Scottish Tory charlatans’ and Labour being ‘unfit for opposition, never mind government’.;
      https://twitter.com/glasgowcathcart/status/1019340165016375296

      Goodnight, folks.

    321. Danny says:

      Latest Poll from England.

      UKIP are on the move again.

      YouGov/Times – CON 36, LAB 41, LDEM 9, UKIP 7
      17 JUL 2018
      YouGov’s regular poll for the Times this week shows another Labour lead, with topline figures of CON 36%(-1), LAB 41%(+2), LDEM 9%(-1), UKIP 7%(+1). Fieldwork was on Monday and Tuesday, and changes are from the middle of last week. We’ve now had four polls with fieldwork after the Davis/Johnson resignations – two from YouGov, one each from Opinium and Deltapoll – and all four have shown the Conservatives falling back behind Labour.

      YouGov also found 40% in favour of a referendum on whether or not to accept the final deal, 42% of people were opposed – the highest level of support for a second referendum that YouGov have found so far with this tracker.

      There was less support for Justine Greening’s idea of a “three-way” referendum between remain, Theresa May’s deal or no deal: only 36% thought that should happen, 47% were opposed. In the event it did go ahead, people said they would vote to stay – on first preferences support stands at Remain 50%, Leave with the deal 17%, Leave without the deal 33%. Once leaving with the deal has been eliminated and second preferences reallocated, the final figures would be 55% remain, 45% leave with no deal.

      http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/10014

    322. Dr Jim says:

      Jo Swinson Liberal Democrat MP for East Dunbartonshire (my constituency) took on the job of MP in the full and certain knowledge she would be pregnant and have her baby immediately after taking on the position
      Jo Swinson who doesn’t live in East Dunbartonshire but lives in England so had no intention whatsoever of representing her constituents at any time
      Jo Swinson career politician who knew she would have a couple of years off on full MP pay for doing nothing

      Jo Swinson who was MP for East Dunbartonshire until Mr John Nicolson SNP ousted her then returned herself illegally by overspending followed by a police investigation of which I have heard no conclusion because of leafletting a flood of up to four drops a day throughout East Dunbartonshire

      Jo Swinson cheating lying lowlife Liberal Democrat who has spent her career blaming the SNP Government for Liberal Democrat council potholes

      That’s how dim voters are in East Dunbartonshire voting for a woman that practically doesn’t exist

    323. Petra says:

      @ Smallaxe at 11:37pm … “James Dornan SNP video.”

      Thanks for the link Smallaxe.

      I see James Dornan states that support for Independence is now at 54%. Does anyone know what recent poll he’s referring to?

    324. Danny says:

      Dr Jim 11.46pm

      Good summing up of “No Show Jo”

      And Outlaw this “Pairing” farce.

    325. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Don’t know of a recent one, and James Kelly most recent article refers to 47% YES

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      I’d say Dornan got fooled by that recent repost of the 2016 June poll after the EU Ref, which was Survation at 54% YES,

    326. Thepnr says:

      Taking a leaf out of Rocks book thought I’d look up some old posts and what do I find? A man who tells Robert Peffers to “Watch your fucking tone, Robin”

      29 January, 2017 at 5:13 pm

      First time posting here! Love lurking and reading your routine deft demolition of the MSM merde, Rev. But unforunately I’m tempted into posting today because this whole schtick manufactured by the SNP about Scotland being a tolerant haven of doughy-eyed social justice progressives is becoming a tad unbearable, and obv not borne out by the polling statistics from recent past years that showed that the same percentage of Scots wanted a reduction in immigration as the fascist Little Englanders (49%).

      Now, I appreciate that on one hand there’s the same ageing population/pensions/university fees problem that immigration helps solve, and on the other a very rewarding experience of scoring political points against the Tories and their dog-whistle tactics, from a comfortable situation of by virtue not having responsibility for decisions on immigration.._yet, so it’s not as if you can be honest about the issue at this point; but it’s probably best to leave it alone, as this BS will put off a huge number of those edging to ‘Yes’. Now the dividing bell has long since rung, and this shitshow could finally end with independence, don’t jinx it it with unnecessary posturing, please!

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/time-catches-up-with-us-all/#comment-2225085

      Reluctant Nationalist says:
      8 July, 2017 at 12:59 am

      Glasgow is twinned with Lahore in the same way the sea is twinned with a sewage pipe.

      Rough sea, mind.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-evolution-of-truth/#comment-2282187

      Reluctant Nationalist says:
      13 August, 2017 at 7:37 pm

      India also drinks deeply from the jobbie-filled Ganges.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-truth-of-the-lobbies/#comment-2290813

      Reluctant Nationalist says:
      1 December, 2017 at 6:05 pm

      Of course muslims can have a place in an independent Scotland. Somewhere between the coast and the 12 nautical mile limit.

      *badoom-pish*

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/minor-roadworks-alert/#comment-2320502

    327. schrodingers cat says:

      it is a meter liz

      a pre existing and underlying and well known cadence, rhythm onto which you lay text. eg english and poetry rhymes, if you wish to emphasise a word, put it in a position at the end of a line where the rhyme happens, but they also employed meter

      scots sonnets, petrarchan and shakespearian sonnets etc

      fully declined languages like latin, greek etc used meters when writing law not just poetry but because they are fully declined languages they shunned rhyme, especially at the end of a line. because of its obvious simplicity/banality. they prefered to put the verb at the end of sentences, like the germans. they used meters for emphasis. (iambic pentameters)

      eg consider the following by kenny everett in the 80’s

      there was a young lady from Bude
      who went for a swim in a pond
      a man in a punt
      stuck his pole in the water
      and said
      “you cant swim here”

      this ditty is to a a non classical meter called a Limerick, a form of meter which also uses rhyme, unlike latin.

      imagine if you could speak english but were eg french but didnt know what a limerick was?

      if you didnt know what the rhyming convention or the meter of a limerick was, would kenny everetts poem make any sense to you?

      everett deliberately eschews the meter and rhyming convention for emphasis and it works only because you know what the meter and rhyming convention should be. it is in fact a very clever limerick

      terry jones explains it better

      youtube.com/watch?v=RqMjLOhQZfM

      🙂

    328. Still Positive says:

      Socrates McSporran further upthread.

      Like you I was totally terrified as a 12 year-old at the time of the Cuban missile crisis.

      And I am just as terrified too now but as well as Trump in the White house I am more terrified that if we don’t vote for independence life outside the Single Market and Customs Union is too awful to bear.

    329. yesindyref2 says:

      I see James Kelly of Scot Goes Pop restarted his fundraiser of a year ago. He provides a very valuable service as he goes into the tables, but even more, he keeps his eye on the poll ether. Make that a vital service.

      https://www.gofundme.com/hamandcheese-toastie-fundraiser

    330. Robert Louis says:

      Foot soldier at 1107pm,

      I totally agree with what you say. It is the complete lack of that ability to take opportunities live, to make such statements that really does the SNP no favours.

      Alex Salmond was good at it, and so, to an extent was Angus Robertson, but many of the other SNP ministers just don’t seem to have had ANY media training whatsoever.

    331. schrodingers cat says:

      terry jones and other pythons were classically trained and were familiar with such things

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSwIA5eJ2h4

    332. Dr Jim says:

      The polls don’t exist to inform anymore they exist to influence, if Jimmy Dornan says he has figures then it’s highly likely that he does and remember the SNP collect their own data they don’t rely on professor Poultice and his chums at the makey uppy numbers office for the Scotland in Yoonion branch of the BBC

      That all stopped after 2014

    333. Dr Jim says:

      Remainers tonight want the referendum result set aside because of the cheating, leavers arguing the sovereign will of the people must be obeyed by parliament no matter what

      Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong here though but the people of England are NOT sovereign are they? The Monarchy on behalf of the people of England ceded its sovereignty to the English parliament did it not, and if that’s the case the advisory case for referendums in England would be correct and that would mean the English parliament could set aside the result any time they wanted so it’s only Tory political ideology that’s keeping them going with this

      In fact again if I’m correct the only people who are legally sovereign in the British Isles are Scottish citizens because our forefathers wrote it up that way foreseeing English treachery towards Scotland in the future

      So it’s kinda like we are the sovereigns and they are the serfs

    334. yesindyref2 says:

      I see Trump is using the old “wooden eye” excuse.

      So basically since reporters were asking him if the KGB had a hold over him, I guess those same reporters will now be asking if the CIA have a hold over him.

      There’s a lot of holding going on, it must be love.

    335. Ghillie says:

      Heartfelt apologies for misspelling your name as Josef o Louain instead of Josef O Luain. I thought I had been careful to get it right, I am so sorry. It can be horrible to see your name incorrectly spelt. I have no idea how to add an accent over ‘O’ though, so apologies for that too.

      I did not mean to sound disrespectful, just encouraging.

      Good to hear your acquaintance is now going to vote Yes. That is good news.

      Just reread your posts. I’m sure it was just a typing mistake but ours is not a ‘Nationalist’ message. The SNP are the Scottish National Party and I fail to see how our message would not be exactly what a young man living in North Lanarkshire could relate to.

      Our message on Independence is for all of the folk of Scotland.

    336. Smallaxe says:

      LINKS:

      Humanitarian Emergency Fund;
      https://news.gov.scot/news/humanitarian-emergency-fund-2

      An independence referendum looks ever more inevitable tonight as Tory rebels FAIL to vote down a hard Brexit;
      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2018/07/an-independence-referendum-looks-ever.html

      Delusional British exceptionalism is all that’s complicating Brexit;
      http://www.businessforscotland.com/delusional-british-exceptionalism-is-all-thats-complicating-brexit/

    337. Smallaxe says:

      North Sea gets 12 million barrel boost from improved efficiency, OGA report says;
      http://archive.is/sLS78

      Shetland names 10 projects for growth;
      http://archive.is/o2rXl

      Stop the World, Scotland Needs On;
      https://thebutterflyrebellion.scot/2018/07/16/stop-the-world-scotland-needs-on/

    338. Smallaxe says:

      We don’t need the good old days;
      https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2018/07/17/we-dont-need-the-good-old-days/

      Number of people granted asylum in the UK falls in 2017;
      https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/number-people-granted-asylum-uk-falls-2017

      @FerretScot is currently putting the spotlight on £319,000 of Scottish Tory ‘dark money’.;
      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1019217057269743617

    339. Smallaxe says:

      Esther Mcvey must resign or be sacked! Ministers who’ve lied to Parliament must go;
      https://www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-esther-mcvey-must-resign-or-be-sacked-ministers-who-ve-lied-to-parliament-must-go

      THERESA MAY’S BETRAYAL TO WIN VOTE – IT’S NOT HER FIRST OFFENCE…;
      https://skwawkbox.org/2018/07/17/theresa-mays-betrayal-to-win-vote-its-not-her-first-offence/

      Nearly 8 million unpaid carers are ‘propping up’ the broken care system;
      https://welfareweekly.com/nearly-8-million-unpaid-carers-are-propping-up-the-broken-care-system/

    340. Smallaxe says:

      Soft Rock: the power shifts in Madrid and London could help Gibraltar;
      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/07/17/soft-rock-the-power-shifts-in-madrid-and-london-could-help-gibraltar/

      Israeli prime minister demands support for racist apartheid law;
      https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/07/17/israeli-prime-minister-demands-support-for-racist-apartheid-law/

      Putin rejects UK’s ‘ungrounded accusations’ over novichok poisoning;
      http://archive.is/epO6A

    341. Smallaxe says:

      The laws protecting Britain’s democracy from big money are broken;
      https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/laws-protecting-britains-democracy-from-big-money-are-broken

      Ireland’s Brexit dividend;
      https://www.politico.eu/article/united-ireland-after-brexit-reunification-vote/

      A reporter went undercover as a Facebook moderator and was trained not to delete certain racist memes and images of child abuse;
      http://uk.businessinsider.com/channel-4-finds-facebook-not-deleting-child-abuse-and-racism-2018-7

    342. Smallaxe says:

      Vote Leave Excuses FAWKED;
      http://zelo-street.blogspot.com/2018/07/vote-leave-excuses-fawked.html

      The DWP hoped we’d miss it changing the rules surrounding a crucial benefit. Wrong.;
      https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/07/17/the-dwp-hoped-wed-miss-it-changing-the-rules-surrounding-a-crucial-benefit-wrong/

      UK military drone operators could be ‘liable for murder prosecution,’ report suggests;
      https://www.rt.com/uk/433494-drones-personnel-liable-prosecution/

    343. Ghillie says:

      Will the MSM give full and clear coverage of the voting last night?

      How on earth can Westminster be considering awarding themselves early and extra summer holidays?!

      I fully expected this summer’s recess for MPs to be cancelled and the UKexit dilemma to be given the intense engagement and effort it needs and deserves.

    344. Smallaxe says:

      Ireland’s decision to advance boycott bill could be the tipping point for justice for Palestine;
      https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20180712-irelands-decision-to-advance-boycott-bill-could-be-the-tipping-point-for-justice-for-palestine/

      Donald Trump’s trip to Europe was an unmitigated disaster;
      https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/17/opinions/trump-europe-visit-an-unmitigated-disaster-opinion-intl/index.html

      Mental health minister agrees to meeting with Wishaw MP in wake of recent deaths;
      http://archive.is/McqRF

    345. Smallaxe says:

      Brussels to issue no deal warning as UK’s new Brexit Secretary meets Michel Barnier for the first time;
      http://archive.is/OqeGG

      The Norway option is the only thing left that will save Brexit – but Theresa May will have to go first;
      http://archive.is/YZkBf

      Boris Johnson flouts MPs’ rules after return to newspaper column;
      http://archive.is/Y7OoS

    346. Smallaxe says:

      UK PM May threatened rebels with a national election: The Times;
      https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-election/uk-pm-may-threatened-rebels-with-a-national-election-the-times-idUSKBN1K80D6?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

      Ruth Davidson’s authority called into question as Scottish Tory MP laughs at ‘vote clearance’ suggestion;
      http://indyref2.scot/ruth-davidsons-authority-called-into-question-as-scottish-tory-mp-laughs-at-vote-clearance-suggestion

      Have a peaceful and pleasant day, Wingers.
      🙂

    347. Ghillie says:

      Smallaxe! Thank you for all the new links =)

      Lots to read 🙂

    348. Smallaxe says:

      Hi Ghillie,

      Some old some new, things are happening fast, let’s hope independence happens fast.
      🙂

    349. sinky says:

      Good old BBC GMS at 7.10 am failed to ask Alastair Carmichael or Lesley Laird why Lib Dem and Labour why their Mps failed to vote for Snp amendments to give Scots Parly a say on EU trade deals that affect devolved issues.

    350. ALANM says:

      @ Robert Louis 01:08

      “Alex Salmond was good at it, and so, to an extent was Angus Robertson, but many of the other SNP ministers just don’t seem to have had ANY media training whatsoever”

      Media training is the last thing we need; personality and the ability to get your point across are what really count.

      You can recognise those who’ve been through the media training thing a mile off – from reporters waving their arms about like windmills to politicians who talk a good game without answering any of the questions put to them. No more please.

    351. Breeks says:


      Robert Peffers says:
      17 July, 2018 at 10:13 pm
      @stewartb says: 17 July, 2018 at 8:10 pm:

      ” … This is now surely the time for the leadership of the SNP and Greens, and the Scottish Government, to pull out every trick, to devise and exploit every possible opportunity, to communicate with the Scottish electorate on the full nature of this Brexit shambles in Westminster and its implications.”

      For the love of God! Just when is it going to dawn upon some Wingers that the SG/Greens & Scottish Government have been doing just that for as long as I can remember and, in the case of the Greens, since they were formed as a party….

      Yes, yes, yes, but if a bear shits in the woods does it make any sound?

      Every word and more that’s unsaid might be true about the SNP’s effort and dedication, but yet you’re asking the very same question Stewartb is asking… “When is it going to dawn on people?”

      It is the task of the SNP to overcome our suppression and circumvent our oppressive propagandised media. It is the task of the BritNat media to stop them, button them up and keep their views peripheral and subdued. Very few objective observers can doubt the latter can boast considerably more success shutting down debate and disrupting pro Independence momentum building than pro independence factions can celebrate breakthrough and success.

      It may not be fair, it might be a very dirty fight, but it’s a win at all costs struggle.

      When will it dawn on people? It likely never will if the BBC continues to have its way.

      The BBC and dirty Press can boast victory just by hanging on. Scottish Independence wins no prize for coming second. We can celebrate our heroes after we win.

      What both you Mr Peffers and Stewartb are both waiting upon is the same thing… the breakthrough, – game changing event. And realistically, that can only come from the Scottish Government.

      It isn’t panic, but objective thinking to ask what it is we are waiting for. What pieces must yet fall into place?

      The Tories and UK government are grossly incompetent and laughably incapable of making sense of Brexit. They cannot even agree a cohesive argument amongst themselves and back stab each other at will. They fracture like brittle glass before Europe’s constancy, and yet unite in an instant of common purpose with no dissent when it comes to suppressing Scotland’s emancipation.

      I fear we are guilty of showing the archaic conventions of Westminster too much respect. Scotland’s Sovereign Independence should be every bit as intractable a conundrum for Westminster as Brexit is, but it is only us who can make it so. Europe has surely shown us how that is done. Zero compromise on fundamental ideals.

      Scotland should roar like a lion and never flinch for a second to defend its Sovereign Constitution just as the EU will not retreat from its indivisible Four Freedoms.

    352. Smallaxe says:

      Theresa May prepares for a grilling from MPs;
      http://archive.is/s19DG

    353. Contrary says:

      Wow, did anyone hear Gary on GMS actually get angry, re Brexit and Tmays great plan, ‘whose national interest?! YOUR national interest or Ross Thomsons national interest?!’ Almost shouting he was – he is really having a hard time interviewing fart face Tory who has just said he has no interest in representing his constituents (Aberdeen NE? Andrew Bowie? A total p**ck whoever). Did people really vote for that??

    354. Ken500 says:

      The Brexit shambles continues to the inevitable conclusion. A GE. It is a waiting game as the economy goes down the tubes and people continue to be sanctioned, starved and killed.

      Will the electoral cheats go to jail? Johnston once agsin flaunting the rules for money. Like a busted flush.

      If people in Scotland do not know what is going on. They must be going around in blinkers. Or just fed up of the whole process. Who can blame them.

      Support for Independence is rising. So is the SNP vote to protect Scotland. The tipping point will get over the line. Within the next year or two. Patience is a virtue,

      Once again the LibDem show their useless incompetence. Show themselves up big time, They could have been brought May down. How useles are they? It beggars belief. They make people sick.

    355. Smallaxe says:

      Dirty tricks: Trade deal legislation strips parliament of control;
      http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/07/17/govt-uses-dirty-tricks-to-strip-parliament-of-brexit-control

      America is the world’s largest weapons exporter. I was curious to see what this looks like over time, so I mapped the flows of arms transfers leaving the U.S.;
      https://twitter.com/wgeary/status/1018863807773446145

      Trump Retreats and Says He Accepts U.S. Finding Russia Meddled;
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-17/trump-says-he-accepts-u-s-finding-russia-meddled-in-election

    356. Macart says:

      @Smallaxe

      Cheers Smallaxe. Quite a pile up of reading there. 😀

      On last night’s proceedings folks?

      Ms May’s government won that vote 307 – 301 pretty much ensuring a hard Brexit. We’ve gone over what that means several times already, so you pretty much know that’s a VERY bad thing.

      Had she lost that vote, the most likely upshot would have been a vote of no confidence followed by a snap GE. Losing that vote potentially would have brought down the most inept, reactionary, right wing, xenophobic, self centred and abusive government in post war history. Two points to consider.

      1. The four Labour voters which swung the vote? Well done you.
      2. The British nationalist parties of Scotland who joined together to foist those 13 tories on Scotland’s population at the last GE? A population that voted resoundingly to remain members of the EU? Last night was your crowning achievement. Also, a big well done you. (VERY slow hand clap)

      Your tribalism. Your petty grudges. Your blinkered ideologies, self entitlement and naked envy have guaranteed misery for a population. You do not deserve our trust. You don’t deserve our respect. You don’t even merit our attention from now on and that is sad beyond words.

    357. Dr Jim says:

      We must not allow anything that could lead to the Nationalists tearing Scotland out of the United Kingdom or we will find ourselves without the assets the UK needs to survive

      Jacob Rees Mogg

    358. Macart says:

      Also? We’re going to need every voice and site we have very shortly. A big ask right now, but worth it.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/07/18/fundraiser-update/

    359. Dorothy Devine says:

      Smallaxe , you have been busy! It’ll take a few more cups of coffee to get through that lot.

      Macart , may I add to that short list the MSM who’s spite and shite aids and abets – may they reap what they have sown.

    360. frogesque says:

      Hard EExit certain, summer recess, Nicola calls IRef2.

      Force the Commons to resit during their summer hols. Take that ya bams!

    361. Shinty says:

      Macart @ 8.51am – you beat me to it.

      Well worth a bawbee or ten. Seems the British Nationalists are frothing over his fundraiser. Disgusting behaviour.

      Please read and give what you can.

    362. wull2 says:

      Thank Smallaxe, people of this site enjoy a good read in the morning. That is the main way we get news.

    363. Luigi says:

      Breeks says:
      18 July, 2018 at 7:56 am

      It may not be fair, it might be a very dirty fight, but it’s a win at all costs struggle.

      Indeed, and no (Robert P), we have not yet tried every trick in the book. The SNP have tried to play fair,competently and be diplomatic. That gets you far, but it does not get you over the line. Time to fight dirty.

      The MSM will never give us a fair hearing, so we use them to do the heavy lifting – we troll, we provoke, we challenge. We say things that make them jump (thinking they have one over us), but we win because we set the narrative.Straight out of the Donald Trump book on how to challenge fake news. I know many of you find Trump distasteful, but here’s the fact – HE WON.

      If you want to fight and defeat an establishment and MSM stacked against you, you have to be bold, you have to be outrageous. You have to get them to notice you. Bait them and set the narrative, before the British nationalists set it for you.

      We play fair, we be nice, we loose. It’s as simple as that, folks.

    364. Smallaxe says:

      Dorothy Devine & wull2,

      Thank you, information is our ammunition against the Britnats.

      Have a peaceful and productive day.
      🙂

    365. frogesque says:

      We write, complain, march, wave flags, create creative banners. MSM effect? Zero. We drop leaflets that by and large get ripped or recycled.

      We complain more so here’s a random thought.

      Do community stuff under a YES banner. Clean up parks, beaches, high streets and other public spaces. Kids clubs (you would need to be registered) for holidays and weekends. Promote on local radio, get the message out, we care about our beautiful country and the future generations.

      It isn’t fair, we have to make it fair. If council’s won’t cooperate with access to waste and recycling plants the a few tons of rubbish (neatly bagged) dumped on the council steps will concentrate minds.

      We are Scotland, we can do, urbane gorrillas r us!

    366. Another Union Dividend says:

      Sinky says at 7:29 am

      “Good old BBC GMS at 7.10 am failed to ask Alastair Carmichael or Lesley Laird why Lib Dem and Labour why their Mps failed to vote for Snp amendments to give Scots Parly a say on EU trade deals that affect devolved issues.”

      BBC / STV / Scottish MSM still have a London Centric mind set and never see any issue through a Scottish prism despite supposedly being their remit.

      Meanwhile the OBR forecast 50 more years of UK austerity.

      http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/national/16359203.austerity-measures-must-continue-for-50-years-to-rescue-uk-finances/

      We need to publicise both these issues as our media won’t do so.

    367. galamcennalath says:

      Dr Jim says

      We must not allow anything that could lead to the Nationalists tearing Scotland out of the United Kingdom …. Jacob Rees Mogg

      Evidence that fools simply don’t get irony!

      The reality is Über Nationalists like Rees Moog himself are playing a significant role is assisting Scotland to leave the UK.

      The intimate irony is that the Conservatives have, over the last four decades been the party which has eroded any cohesion that existed within the UK. Organisations which represented a Britain wide presence were mainly destroyed by Thatcher. Now, TMay and her cronies are working hard to remove the mandate and authority of one of the last symbols of ‘Britishness’, Westminster itself.

      In ten years time, once the dust has settled, iScotland will look back and give thanks to the likes of Rees Mogg for finally showing that political union between Scotland and England had become unsustainable.

    368. Abulhaq says:

      @DrJim
      Scotland, as territory, is an asset, it’s just the people who aren’t.
      Exactly what the union was all about, acquisition of material benefit.
      The grand imperial project tried and tested before general release.

    369. Fred says:

      @ Smallaxe, you’re on fire this weather kid!

    370. Omnishambles says:

      This could have saved May and co a lot of time…

      https://noobnorm.com/brexit/

      (A brexit plan generator)

    371. galamcennalath says:

      frogesque says:

      Do community stuff under a YES banner …. We are Scotland

      You make a very interesting point. Why are we doing what we do? For me, it’s to build a better Scotland. If local Yes groups were seen to be involved, decent, caring, concerned etc etc, it would go a long way to counter BritNat propaganda.

    372. Ken500 says:

      Kate Hoey constituency voted 86% Remain. There are plans to deselect her. Some of the constituency party want her throw out of the Labour Party.

      Trump won? The loser won. 3,000,000 less votes. D’Hondt

      Why don’t some of ‘the ‘little red hens’. Join the SNP, donate and get stuck in. Instead of squirming in the sidelines constantly criticising. Expecting everyone else to do the work for them. Embarrassing,

      Playing fair wins. Just look at the Tories in disarray. What a shower. Beyond the pale. Police now brought in. Some convictions this time? Everyone knows they were cheating big time. Support now plummenting. SNP support from a high is rising.

      Apart from the fact every public official, civil servant and politician is subject to the Official Secrets Act. They have to take an oath which limits what they can say. They have to work around the parameters. Especially Nicola and Co because people voted NO. They govern for the whole of Scotland. Not just the SNP.

      There is a code of conduct. Unfortunately broken too many times by those in Westminster. Including May and her motley crew. They make the Law and break the Law, with impunity Kept secret hidden under the Official Secrets Act. The state of the unionist Parties. Off on two months holidays. The complete and utter shambles. The UK in disarray.

    373. donnywho says:

      That fifty years of austerity from the OBR.

      You have to realize that is not a threat, that is a promise to the ruling classes.

      Austerity was an invention that allowed the poor to bail out the rich after the failure of their banking system and the “free” market.

      Not only were we blamed for it but we paid for it and worse still we took ownership and responsibility for it. The Turkeys were persuaded that Xmas was in their interest. Responsible Turkeys everywhere endorsed the process and organized their own delivery to local butchers, for it was “the right thing to do”.

      In the real world this meant declining incomes, stealth privatization of the NHS, protection of tax evasion from the new EU rules(Brexit and a price worth paying, the highest growth in inequality since the WW1, cradle to grave was to be scrapped as un-affordable.

      The promise from the OBR is simple. Britain is open for business, for fifty years we will guarantee a low wage economy with little on no human rights or union representation. A place were fortunes can be made in the back of ever-growing inequality, where tax will be confined to the little people not the wealth creators.

      They will recreate a Victorian Dystopia and call it Enterprise.

      That is what the OBR promises!

      Are you still going to present yourself to the Butcher and glow with pride that soon your children will join you on his slab too.

      After all we have to rebuild Great Britain one corpse at a time, it is the right thing to do!

    374. Hamish100 says:

      BBC has just cost us over £1 million with their made up news reporting re Cliff Richard.

      Resignations? sackings?

    375. HandandShrimp says:

      Not surprised by the Cliff ruling. Innocent until proven guilty. It was tacky* in the extreme to do a US Fox News style helicopter by minute running commentary over a police investigation. The BBC executives must have known they were in deep trouble when the police did not press any charges.

      * OK the BBC is pretty tacky these days but still.

    376. Footsoldier says:

      ALANM @ 7:31

      I’m afraid we shall have to agree that we substantially disagree.

      A good example of some SNP speakers is Barry Gardiner of the Labour Party. He is a good speaker, refined and well spoken but he lacks brevity with his long winded diatribes and therefore loses focus.

      Consequently any quick edged rebuttal is totally lost as the viewer’s eyes have already glazed over and their brain’s listening receptors are already in shutdown mode.

      A spin off of this long discourse in any on air repeat, is it has to be edited and that of course is up to the editor who chooses the content.

    377. Fred says:

      @ donnywho, Good Post!

    378. K1 says:

      Jacob Rees Mog is a cunt.

    379. donnywho says:

      Ta Fred, nice to get feedback… good or bad! prefer good, learn from bad!

    380. Ken500 says:

      RT is more balanced. That is why people watch it. Or use the internet.

    381. Smallaxe says:

      Jealous woman smears 8 litres of pig blood all over lord’s flat, draws penis on floor;
      https://www.rt.com/uk/433553-pig-blood-lord-flat-revenge/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=RSS
      🙂

    382. Marie Clark says:

      donnywho @ 10.03, very good post, but I must admit, it frightens the hell out of me.

      Come on Scotland, wake up for goodness sake. We have the lifeboats, almost time to man them.

    383. stu mac says:

      @Socrates MacSporran says:
      17 July, 2018 at 8:56 pm
      I can remember, as a teenaged schoolboy, going to bed at the height of the Cuban missile crisis in 1961-2, absolutely unsure as to whether or not I would waken-up in the morning.

      Thanksfully, John F Kennedy stood firm and Kruschev backed down. I have never felt that fear since.

      Falling for propaganda there. Both sides backed down and the USA removed its Turkey-based missiles pointing at the USSR while Cuban missiles were removed. Of course, Western media played it purely as Kruschev backing down. There was an element mind you of ‘macho’ posturing on both sides which thankfully was counteracted by pragmatism which saw it wasn’t worth the candle to force the issue.

    384. Macart says:

      @donnywho

      That’s pretty much it in a nutshell.

      Well said.

    385. Ken500 says:

      Poverty could have been eradicaed. The Tory cut welfare spending £3Billion over 6 years. £18Billion. They are spending £20Billion a year on Trident, Hinkley Point and HS2. All a total waste of public money. They cut the NHS £20Billion from 2015 to 2020. £4Billion a year. They have had to put in more £2Billion+ A&E because of the state of it. ConDems cut Education £6Billion a year. Then spent it on student loans in the rest of the UK. £3Billion that will not be repaid. Just a burden on young people. Totally nonsensical.

      Cameron/Clegg ConDems elected support NHS and Education cut funding. They caused Brexit. Another total waste of money. £Billions wasted. The contribution is worth it for the shared Defence cost alone. Plus all the other benefits. Nearest, largest market,. Good social and economic rules and regulation. Grants and investment.

      In 2009 £600Billion was raised in tax revenues. £120Billion borrowed.

      Now £533Billion is raised in tax revenues £50Billion public borrowing. £50Billion borrowed investment in the rest of the UK. Overcharged. HS2. Hinkley Point and Trident etc. Totally overpriced. With much better less costly alternatives. A rip off racket of public money. For fees, bank charges, consultancies and loan repayments. Higher than needed. A gross waste of public money.

      Scotland finances have been grossly mismanaged by Westminster unionists. Every major sector ruined. Not reaching it’s potential.

    386. donnywho says:

      Macart, it is a very dystopian view, but as they say if it looks like, tastes like and smells like it probably is!

    387. Ottomanboi says:

      @K1
      Personality apart, Mogg wants for his country what we want for ours, sovereignty and independence. There is nothing wrong with that. The English nationalists may well get what they want but will we?

    388. call me dave says:

      Heard the magic words again yesterday and it might come along if the present lot call a ‘National Emergency’

      https://archive.is/LRX32

      FGS! Lets get out when we get the chance.

    389. Andy-B says:

      So the 13 Scottish Tories backed the government in last nights votes, against the interests of their homeland Scotland. Where is Ruth? She once claimed that her unlucky 13 would stand up for Scotland. But we all knew deep inside that was a lie.

      No choice now but to hold a second indyref and vote yes.

    390. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says at 12:28 am …. ”Petra – Don’t know of a recent one, and James Kelly most recent article refers to 47% YES. I’d say Dornan got fooled by that recent repost of the 2016 June poll after the EU Ref, which was Survation at 54% YES.”

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

      Thanks for replying yesindyref2. You’re probably right. Too bad, eh?

    391. Phydaux says:

      frogesque 9:31

      Love the idea of Yessers as urban gorillas…inspirational in deed and thought. This could be a call to see ourselves differently, to open ourselves to a new way of being. We can and must do more to help stitch back together the social fabric of our own neighbourhoods. To put ourselves at the service of the collective good and to be proud, in the best sense of the word, of our country and people. Politics as part of the human condition and personal and help restore some dignity to those who continue to be intentionally harmed by the ruling elite.

    392. Petra says:

      @ call me dave at 11:52am ……..”FGS! Lets get out when we get the chance…”

      https://archive.is/LRX32

      Thanks for the link call me dave. That just about says it ALL, imo, when a Tory MP at Westminster comes out with this! One who is trying to tell everyone that Brexit is going to cost the UK, overall, hundreds of thousands of jobs. Will the MSM report on this?

      Anna Soubry: “I personally would abandon the Labour frontbench and I would reach beyond it and I would encompass Plaid Cymru, the SNP and other sensible, pragmatic people who believe in putting this country’s interests first and foremost,” she said.

      ……………………

      Great work Smallaxe. Getting the Truth out there. Your fingers must be blistered today right enough. It won’t be long now in no small part to people like you and Nana (and Stu of course, lol) X

    393. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Dr Jim says it could be an SNP one. Quite possible, Dornan did say “a poll this morning”, but maybe that’s when he read a tweet or something. I guess we’ll never know 🙂

      Meanwhile, these words from WGD blog “and I heard some great news about The National that I’m not allowed to tell you about yet.

      My guess is it comes out on a Sunday as well. It does do Sunday articles on the website.

    394. Jack Murphy says:

      BREXIT. TO RECAP ON THE TORY MPs FROM SCOTLAND:

      Yesterday the Commons votes saw ALL the 13 Scottish Tory MPs vote with Theresa May MP on Brexit.

      This was despite the majority of them backing REMAIN ahead of the EU referendum ! 🙁

      These 13 Tory MPs are NOT answerable to Ruth Davidson MSP in any shape or form, they are answerable to their constituents and to the Tory Government Whips at No 12 Downing Street,Westminster.
      FACT.

      OUT with them ASAP !

    395. HandandShrimp says:

      I think a few of the 13 Tory MPs elected last year are actually Kippers who saw the writing on the wall and have opted for entryism into the Tory party as the best way to further their ends. They hold no allegiance to Ruth, May or the electorate of their constituencies.

    396. Petra says:

      @ yesindyref2 says at 12:33 pm …. ”Petra – Dr Jim says it could be an SNP one. Quite possible, Dornan did say “a poll this morning”, but maybe that’s when he read a tweet or something. I guess we’ll never know ? Meanwhile, these words from WGD blog “and I heard some great news about The National that I’m not allowed to tell you about yet.” My guess is it comes out on a Sunday as well. It does do Sunday articles on the website.”

      I missed the post by Dr Jim!

      Oh, I can’t wait to see that figure start to rise to over 50% and beyond. Like most others on here. Can’t wait to find out what the ”great news” is either. Roll on. We need some.

    397. yesindyref2 says:

      @Petra
      Yes, the waiting is frustrating, marking time. But next week is the UKSC UK Gov challenging the ScotGov EU Continuity Bill, that’ll be interesting, and maybe things will start kicking off from there.

    398. Robert Peffers says:

      @Luigi says: 18 July, 2018 at 9:10 am:

      ” … We play fair, we be nice, we loose. It’s as simple as that, folks”.

      Well that’s one opinion – and I suppose you are entitled to hold it.

      It is also utter pish! There are far, far more valid reasons why the Indy movement failed to win and they actually make far more sense.

    399. Grace Sutherland says:

      I seem to have ploughed through a thousand responses to this thread and not yet seen a list of what’s devolved and what isn’t. Where’s the list? Does ANYONE know?

    400. Thepnr says:

      @Grace Sutherland

      There’s a handy little graphic at the bottom of the page on this link that should help clear things up for you.

      http://www.parliament.scot/visitandlearn/Education/18642.aspx

    401. yesindyref2 says:

      @Grace Sutherland
      http://www.parliament.scot/EducationandCommunityPartnershipsresources/Your_Guide_Mar_2016.pdf

      I think it’s up to date, still checking it out!

    402. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, pretty good easy short guide that after a quick skim through, worth a bookmark.

    403. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Thepnr @ 12.47am, 18tth July

      Fair point. Stones in glass houses and all that.

      I’ve not read the first post I made on here for a very long time, but I have to say it still stands up quite well. But I would say that.

    404. Ghillie says:

      RN No.

      Your comments did not stand up well then and certainly do not now.

      Your thoughts shared here then are utterly revolting.

    405. remo says:

      Dr Jim says:
      18 July, 2018 at 8:50 am
      We must not allow anything that could lead to the Nationalists tearing Scotland out of the United Kingdom or we will find ourselves without the assets the UK needs to survive

      Jacob Rees Mogg

      Please, please tell me the source of this comment. I would love to share it with a No voter pal and this is the kind of thing which might help to remove the blinkers for any future vote.

    406. Shug says:

      If england wants brexit they need to think about dumping scotland and n ireland now
      That will give them the majority they need



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