An opportunist strike
The chance presented itself recently to conduct a quick bit of snap opinion polling at a lower cost than our usual, so it seemed daft not to jump on it. The data below comes from the same Panelbase survey whose headline findings (Yes 46% No 54% excluding don’t-knows) were reported in the Sunday Times at the weekend, and sampled 1046 Scottish adults earlier this month.
As usual, we didn’t want to ask questions to which people might have automatic reflex responses coloured by party affiliation. Instead, for this poll we decided to find out how well-informed Scots were about their current constitutional arrangements, ask whether their views on the referendum had changed over the campaign, and talk a little bit about football just for a laugh.
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Which of the following aspects of Scottish life do you think are currently controlled at Holyrood by the Scottish Parliament, and which are controlled by Westminster by the UK Parliament?
PERSONAL TAXATION (income tax rates, NI etc)
Holyrood: 10%
Westminster: 75%
Don’t know: 15%
BUSINESS TAXATION (VAT, excise duty Corporation tax etc)
Holyrood: 8%
Westminster: 76%
Don’t know: 16%
IMMIGRATION
Holyrood: 7%
Westminster: 79%
Don’t know: 13%
THE NHS
Holyrood: 47%
Westminster: 39%
Don’t know: 14%
This is an astonishing and alarming finding. Fewer than half of Scots know that healthcare is not only devolved, but is in fact already fully independent and always has been since its inception after World War 2.
The main reason is Labour voters – those identifying with the other three main parties all scored at least 50% (Lib Dems were best informed at 67%), but only 42% of Johann Lamont’s supporters knew that Holyrood ran the Scottish NHS, with 46% believing that Westminster was in charge.
WELFARE (benefits, tax credits, pensions etc)
Holyrood: 12%
Westminster: 74%
Don’t know: 14%
EDUCATION
Holyrood: 66%
Westminster: 20%
Don’t know: 14%
Again, Lib Dem voters were the best-informed and Labour the worst, with fully a quarter of the party’s supporters under the mistaken impression that Scotland’s education system (which, like the NHS, has ALWAYS been fully independent even before devolution) was run from London.
SETTING OF THE NATIONAL MINIMUM WAGE
Holyrood: 10%
Westminster: 75%
Don’t know: 14%
DEFENCE
Holyrood: 5%
Westminster: 82%
Don’t know: 13%
The strongest correct score in this section of the poll. But even here, almost one in five Scots either weren’t sure or were wrong about who runs the armed forces.
ENERGY POLICY (eg building nuclear power stations or windfarms)
Holyrood: 42%
Westminster: 40%
Don’t know: 18%
A little surprising given how often the Scottish media (particularly the more right-wing elements) runs negative windfarm stories attacking the Scottish Government.
TRANSPORT (roads, railways, buses, trams etc)
Holyrood: 61%
Westminster: 24%
Don’t know: 15%
How many years’ coverage of the trams fiasco? Yet still nearly 40% of Scots don’t know, or are wrong about, the fact that we’ve only got ourselves to blame for that one.
REPRESENTATION OF SCOTLAND IN EUROPE
Holyrood: 36%
Westminster: 46%
Don’t know: 18%
In fairness, we suppose the reality is a little vague here, since by definition MEPs sit neither at Holyrood nor Westminster. Next time we’ll phrase that one better. Tories were by a considerable margin most likely to say “Holyrood” (47%), SNP supporters the least likely (33%).
NORTH SEA OIL REVENUES
Holyrood: 11%
Westminster: 73%
Don’t know: 15%
26% of Scots think we either do or might control oil money. Wow.
————————————————————————————————–
Next up was a question we asked purely for fun, and only because it was cheap. We cross-referenced it with the Yes/No answers to see if there might be any interesting trends among fans of particular clubs, and some of the results were rather surprising.
Before anyone starts to complain, we should point out that with the exception of Rangers and Celtic supporters, the “other team not listed here” category and people who didn’t like football at all, the sample sizes were very small (all below 60, and a few in single figures), and so can’t be statistically relied on. As we said, just a bit of fun.
Which football team do you support?
ABERDEEN
Yes: 18%
No: 50%
Don’t know: 32%
CELTIC
Yes: 48%
No: 40%
Don’t know: 12%
DUNDEE UNITED
Yes: 44%
No: 49%
Don’t know: 7%
HEART OF MIDLOTHIAN
Yes: 42%
No: 46%
Don’t know: 12%
HIBERNIAN
Yes: 42%
No: 43%
Don’t know: 14%
INVERNESS CALEDONIAN THISTLE
Yes: 25%
No: 75%
Don’t know: 0%
KILMARNOCK
Yes: 59%
No: 41%
Don’t know: 0%
MOTHERWELL
Yes: 51%
No: 0%
Don’t know: 49%
PARTICK THISTLE
Yes: 58%
No: 26%
Don’t know: 16%
RANGERS
Yes: 45%
No: 41%
Don’t know: 14%
So who saw that one coming? (Rangers fans were the biggest single-club group in the survey, at a still-fairly small sample of 156 respondents.)
ROSS COUNTY
Yes: 0%
No: 61%
Don’t know: 39%
Whereas the Dingwall outfit were the smallest, represented by just FOUR fans in the raw data. The weird breakdown of the numbers is a result of weighting.
ST JOHNSTONE
Yes: 6%
No: 94%
Don’t know: 0%
ST MIRREN
Yes: 28%
No: 52%
Don’t know: 20%
OTHER CLUB NOT LISTED HERE
Yes: 46%
No: 42%
Don’t know: 12%
A surprisingly high 91 respondents made up the “diddy team” sample – more than Dundee United, Inverness, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Partick Thistle, Ross County, St Johnstone and St Mirren put together.
I’M NOT INTERESTED IN FOOTBALL
Yes: 38%
No: 50%
Don’t know: 12%
Some confirmation there for our long-held feeling that anyone who doesn’t like football is essentially a bit suspect.
————————————————————————————————–
Lastly in this section, we wanted to gauge what effect the two campaigns – and indeed the rest of the wider debate – were having on people’s views.
Has your referendum voting intention changed over the last 18 months?
No – I’m still voting Yes: 27%
No – I’m still voting No: 40%
No – I’m still undecided: 14%
I’ve changed from undecided to Yes: 7%
I’ve changed from undecided to No: 3%
I’ve changed from No to undecided: 2%
I’ve changed from Yes to undecided: 1%
I’ve changed from No to Yes: 4%
I’ve changed from Yes to No: 1%
Those numbers tell us that almost a fifth of Scots – 19% – have changed their position in some way over the course of the last year and a half. Campaigners and activists will be pleased to know that they haven’t totally wasted their time.
Of those who’ve shifted, 68% have moved in a Yes-ward direction (58% to full-on Yes, 10% to undecided), compared to 32% heading at least some distance towards No (21% to full No, 11% to undecided).
————————————————————————————————–
So that’s the past and the present dealt with. Join us a little later on for our second and final batch of data, in which we found out what happened when we asked our respondents to gaze into their crystal balls and predict Scotland and the UK’s future.
I’m not interested in football!
Good Stuff Stu. Especially re NHS and Education as it explains why we hear so many people worried about the potential negative effect of Independence on these subjects.
A good reason for some of the advertising budgets to be spent on correcting this????
Old Firm fans support independence – WOW!
“Fewer than half of Scots know that healthcare is not only devolved”
Doesn’t surprise at all.
The thought occured to me a few years ago that when the ‘Scottish Executive’ was renamed to ‘Scottish Government’, it was a good time for some other re-branding. ‘NHS (Scotland)’ should have been called the ‘Scottish Health Service’ and the publicity generated used to make sure we all knew how it was run.
Alas, way too late.
Might want to rerun that St Johnstone and Dundee United one again. 😉 COYS I wuz there.
“Fewer than half of Scots know that healthcare is not only devolved, but is in fact already fully independent and always has been since its inception after World War 2.”
And explains why bettertogetherBBC relentlessly attacks NHS Scotland via projectfear’s Lady Eleanor Bradford. You see Scotland, you cant even run a health service, how can you lot possibly run your own country…
link to newsnetscotland.com
Very interesting set of information which reveals much.
Some have a lot of data to catch up on,hopefully with a few months to go, the majority in these statistics will make an effort to do a little bit of research before they go near a polling station.
Trouble is some folk don’t know they don’t know. 🙂
I’m amazed by the Ross County figures. You must have got a hold of Dingwall’s four weirdos that day!
@galamcennalath
I know a long serving professional NHS worker in the west of Scotland who thought the NHS in Scotland and rUK was all the one entity. And she is in a highly trained front line job and isn’t stupid.
The number of people who believe Holyrood has control, when it doesn’t, reminded me of something my mother said years ago. She said she knew people who actually thought we got independence when Holyrood was set up. The poll above might suggest as many as 10% believe that! Wonder what they plan to vote?
Sadly, some of the more misleading campaigning from BT has focussed on the Scottish NHS as if it is the same organisation as the English NHS. It suits them to do so, suggesting that NHS jobs and services are at risk as if independence is a split in the NHS as well as the UK.
As we know, the Scottish NHS is independent; but it never ceases to amaze me how few people know this. Campaigners need to emphasise the independence of the Scottish NHS and the risks to it in the event of a No vote.
BTW, I support just one team and its not football…
link to nairnyes.wordpress.com
Granted a small sample size but the Aberdeen result is embarrassing…..not as embarrassing as say losing to Bohemians or Stenhousemuir but embarrassing all the same.
Got to admit the Rangers result does confound my prejudice and I guess emphasises ye should never pre judge people or their views on something as misleading as their fitba team.
Always assumed (based on the fact I’ve yet to meet a Red who’s a NO), Dons fans were amongst the most Pro YES support with Rangers at the other end of the spectrum.
Well that’s me telt !!
If the majority of Rangers and Celtic fans are on the Yes side and with it also being so close with Hearts and Hibs fans then Yes should prevail.Lets hope so.
Greannach says:
“I’m amazed by the Ross County figures. You must have got a hold of Dingwall’s four weirdos that day!”
Relax – I know at least one Yes voting Ross County supporter. And it’s not me.
link to nairnyes.wordpress.com
BTW there were large canvas and/or plastic YES banners cable tied to most of the roadside barrier on the way to the ground. They had disappeared after the match. Didn’t see any NO banners.
I have to say, I am incredibly disappointed with my fellow buddies.
Useful information, it certainly shows where Yes could usefully deploy informercials.
30+ units of alcohol over the Friday night, Saturday night and Sunday night. Still recovering.
Where are the mighty and glorious DEE?
Energy Policy is a bit more complicated than a straight Westminster or Holyrood answer. Planning permission etc is controlled from Holyrood, but the market structure and particularly the EMR is controlled from Westminster. Crown Estate income also goes to Westminster not Holyrood, so it can’t be protrayed as a simple H/W answer.
Ok Stu, I know the football supporters survey was unscientific, but seriously – Aberdeen, Inverness Caley, Ross County (0%!), St Johnstone…..all emphatic Nos?
WTF is it with these guys’ attachment to the British state? And before anyone says it’s the ‘we’re doing alright, why change’ mentality, there are plenty of people in the other parts of the country who are ‘doing alright’ & do want change.
I’ll bet if No wins, these guys will all be enthusiastically bussing it down to Hampden for the next Scotland game as part of the ‘Tartan’ Army. Sillars was right : 90 minute patriots…
Very interesting, the Auld Firm, what a surprise. Aberdeen… wtf?
This info from Rev Stu should be of great interest on a London centred financial site that I have been posting to for several years. I am now under suspension from it after being accused of cybernattery ..in my case posting too much on the Scottish Independence Referendum Board. (The reason that they have provided is a little more complex). I have lodged an appeal but the short suspension will likely be over by the time that I can be bothered to provide them with the details that they already know.
It feels a little like being suspended from church attendance because of over contribution to the plate or being too helpful to the world community.
I would not advise anyone to take a big interest in the board. There are very few votes to be obtained there, if any, as most of the posters are from South of the border, and “Yes” posts are so easy to delete.
Tom
As the Rev said, we need to be wary of the very small sample base for the footy results. Some of them look perverse in the extreme. I know, for example, that Hearts fans ran an indy poll earlier this year and, the last time I saw it, the Yes vote was well in front.
I’ve been encouraged by both the sight of Yes banners in among the GB at Parkhead, and listening to Rangers fans saying they will vote Yes – the Orange Lodge’s position on it being neither here nor there.
Dare I say it – and not to suggest for a minute the exercise wasn’t worth it – but folks’ politics are increasingly unconnected to what colour of scarf they put on on a Saturday. Which, of course, is as it should be.
I think in fairness to the smaller clubs the total number of respondents might be very small.
Labour votes are more likely to be handed down unquestioningly through the generations. Ask no questions, get no answers. Do no digging, get no vegetables except yourself and the family around you.
What the FUCK are you wasting our money on this FUCKING SHIT for ?
Rev – just commenting on one of your poll findings that you tweeted about re women under 34 being NO voters. I’d be interested in a breakdown of their background i.e. I wonder how many of them are perhaps still living with parents and follow their fathers views: the oft mentioned father/daughter relationship. Is there any way to connect this age group to parent age group voting intentions?
I remember seeing a BBC vox pop questioning a pair of young girls in Glasgow on how they would vote in the indy ref. The first one said she didn’t know but would probably vote the way her father and brothers said she should. You could hear her friend gasp loudly at her remark and then go on to say her friend should find the facts for herself and that she would be voting YES.
I’d also like to know this demographic’s background in general e.g. single parent family in council flat being fearful of losing benefits owing to the ‘iScotland couldn’t afford welfare’ brigade, or single women just managing to get on the housing ladder, fearful of rates increases, although I think they may have a bit of a worry looming large on the UK horizon there.
Think all this shows (as is possibly the idea) is that a faily small sample of people does not represent the whole country’s opinion,but when a poll comes out we subconsciously tell ourselves it does. Poll of polls show Yes still trending up which is about as near to accuracy as is possible.
O/T George Galloway had his just say naw roadshow at the Music Hall in Aberdeen last night and around 500 turned up, I hope they went for the novelty factor and not to actually listen to that balloon, some people shouldn’t be allowed out on their own.
Baldo, if it’s a Yes vote in Aberdeen, we’ll win get over 60% overall….Aberdeen seems to be the most hardened No’s I’ve encountered.
££££££
The numbers of people (especially Labour voters) who don’t know who controls benefits may go some way to explaining the rhetoric Labour have used in the past about “the SNP not abolishing the bedroom tax”. It looks as though this is a deliberate ploy on their part to deflect blame to the Scottish government and to some extent with their own voters may have succeeded.
And just to be pedantic 🙂
With reference to the transport question – it is fair to say that whilst Scotland has control over many aspects of the railways, Westminster still has 100% control over cross-border services (e.g. everything not ScotRail). They also control railway regulation as well as Network Rail, and British Transport Police, etc. So some confusion as to answers here could be expected.
Similarly with energy – Westminster controls energy policy and regulation of energy companies, etc. but the Scottish Government has some powers over renewables as well as planning control so they have veto powers over windfarm and power station building, etc.
Wee bit of Trident trivia….
link to eezypeezylemonsqeezy.com
@Greannach
I know a Staggies fan who is a very firm no.
HandandShrimp @ 2.35pm
“Useful information, it certainly shows where Yes could usefully deploy informercials”.
I wish they’d start deploying something, corrupt msm notwithstanding. There are still far too many undecided and soft nos that aren’t getting the message. I’ve received nothing through the letterbox from Yes and I’m the only address on my street – so far – that has Yes posters in the windows (Glasgow G20).
Only when we have a result from a totally unbiased polling organization which has covered a very wide demographic with a straightforward question about voting intentions on Sept 18 which shows 55%+ for Yes then we know we’re on our way, providing we keep at it right up till the 18th of course.
BTW, I’ve done some telecanvassing for Yes (quite encouraging) and intend to do more to help out over the next few months.
OT. The Hootsmon has come out with this video A Guide to Scottish Independence. Not their usual rabid stuff but overall anti independence. See what you make of it.
link to scotsman.com
@chalks
Do Aberdonians not appreciate that the oil & energy industry would do nothing other than flourish in an independent Scotland?
@ onzebill, if George Galloway sold around 500 seats at the Musical hall last night, it must have felt pretty empty as the hall holds 3 times that. Plus he got huge Press and Journal boost up here with their coverage this morn making the Naw Galloway show look like the Beatles got back together. at the Musical Hall. Its very weird watching the P&J far right liggers boosting up dudes like Galloway.
For expressing a dislike of this football thing here.I was telt “to get back in the kitchen”.Says it all about sports people. How depressing so many like football and not the real world.
“Aberdeen seems to be the most hardened No’s I’ve encountered.”
Nae sure about that min…like I said unless I’m mixing in the wrong circles yet to meet anyone who’s No Voter.
Mind you politics like religion is yer own affair in Aberdonia and nae rammed down somebody elses throat.
Cults & Ferryhill will probably go No….but hard to see Tilly or Hilton rallying to the Union Jack.
@TJenny
I wish my eldest would follow her father’s views on the referendum. But I suspect that as in much else she is No because I’m a Yes. Don’t get me wrong, we have an excellent relationship, providing we stay off some subjects.
The youngest is away at university in New Zealand and has gone native in the country of her birth. She was however interested in whether she would be entitled to a passport. My reading is yes on the basis of my birth here, we just have to register the fact somehow. I think she likes living in a small vibrant independent nation.
Just did a quick poll of people in my house that don’t like football.
YES 100%
No 0%
Don’t know 0%
not statistically relevant I know but…
Muscleguy – don’t get me wrong here as I’m thinking more of Slab voters who seem to hand down their political views from generation to generation without any of them ever querying their stance in the light of current Slab policies.
For my part when I was a teenager/20 something, if my father had said white, I’d have said black, and been able to argue my case – easy as my dad was an old bigot, oops, sorry, Lab voter. 🙂
Don’t knows convert at 2:1 to Yes : No. I’ve seen that figure before. Is it consistent? Looks like it. That’s enough to give a yes win if it continues.
Perhaps this is what is worrying BT. If so, their priority is to keep the undecided in a state of ignorance and confusion so they don’t vote at all.
Honestly, I am still amazed that Scots have been duped by Labour and the BBC (who still insist on referring to the English Education secretary, Michael Gove, as THE Education Secretary) into thinking that the NHS in Scotland is run by London, and that it has ALWAYS been a completely separate entity from the English NHS. Likewise with education.
The football info was not really useful. A bit like asking some folks in the pub what they think and who they support.
TheGreatBaldo,
I roam around Aiberdeen sweeping chimneys and asking the question, i’d go for around 60%yes until it gets to lots of very closed mouthed women. Interestingly most of the “foreigners” I meet are amazed that anyone would vote no, I’d put me English customers at around 40%yes.
As you point out it depends which part of the city I’m in.
I have to mount a defence for those who don’t follow football. Does that apply to Partick Thistle fans?
In Glasgow that was always a way of getting out of any awkward conversation which arose about football support. “Just say you support Partick Thistle,” was always advice given to anyone new to Glasgow.
On the way up to the rally in September we were joined by a nice young lad who saw us looking a bit askance at his Rangers top. He assured us about his support for independence and in the course of conversation, told us he was Catholic too. It was from him that we learned that there was an internet forum called Rangers and Celtic supporters for independence. Open-minded youth or what? Put us in the right spirit for the rally.
I’ve been saying for years that the SNP should have renamed the Scottish NHS as soon as they got into power. If it had been called something completely different for the past five years, perhaps people would have started to realise by now that it wasn’t the same thing as the English NHS. Too late now, though. 🙁
A lot of Rangers fans will be ex army and let me tell you after you murder dozens of natives and find out it was a big lie, your perspective changes dosent mean you change the football team you support.
@heedtracker – surely that means that Eleanor Bradford’s attack on the Scottish NHS is having the effect that a large % of people will blame WM?
So this could backfire on the BBC as I would assume that folk who use the internet for information will be more informed and will know that the Scottish NHS has always been independent.
Just to clarify, is Westminister not in charge of building Nuclear stations but cant because the Scottish Government will not give them planning permission?
O/T My son took my grandson to the cinema at the weekend,they where subject to 3 adverts from NOB, they did not go down well with the crowd.
Apparently some people complained about being hostage to watch them, ie not like a tv ad where you can switch the channel. They got their money back.
So pass around that people should condemn having to watch them with the management, and may also ( I suppose if they ask of course ) get their money back. Whatever side you are on.
At the game on Saturday, you couldn’t miss all the yes banners. In the ground, I looked around and saw lots of St J and Utd colours in the form of the saltire and saw one pretty small flag in Utd colours in style of Union flag – actually, I’d never noticed one of these at Utd games before so maybe some kind of statement from a small group of Pro Brit fans?
Robert Whyte says:
“Just to clarify, is Westminister not in charge of building Nuclear stations but cant because the Scottish Government will not give them planning permission?”
Funnily enough, Robert, planning is currently devolved, but WM is taking that power back in the Scotland Bill.
Democracy Reborn – Nae necessarily Aberdonians, high proportion of oil workers aren’t Aberdonians and no they have no idea about the oil and the history of it AND what could be done….Although the McCrone report did the rounds at a Norwegian oil services company….in Dyce, which went down a storm.
Baldo- I’m maybe wrong, used to stay in Torry and that was very pro Yes, since moved out to Inverurie and it’s full of No voters, bitter and twisted with money to burn, Thatcherism at their core.
But yeh, I can’t see the poor areas going to No, as many have said to me, ‘it can’t get any worse can it?’
There is a wee bit of a downturn in Aberdeen at the moment, pay cuts across the board and lay offs aplenty…all down to Osbournes work.
I think this might help the Yes vote amongst this lot, just have to let them know that the majority of it is Osbournes fault.
I’ve had a look over the Panelbase poll, using the 68/32 yes ratio for the undecideds, rather than the unusual numbers they declared. This gives the following result: Yes is 395+121 = 516, No is 459+57 = 516!, or 50:50. I guess this shows that we still have the momentum, and the reason that the poll showed a possible dip was simply down to the way the undecided were included.
Crisiscult – Might be pro-brits, but some folk get that made to wind up the celtic fans….
Chris Cairn
Re Hearts and Hibs figures
There will be Hearts fans who will vote Yes because AS is one of them, and I know there are some Hibs fans who will vote No because AS supports Hearts. Meanwhile the Union flag waving Hearts supporters will vote No. Final result—a draw.
Heedtracker @3.59 Music Hall capacity is about 1200 but my point was that the creep actually got around 500 in the first place. I live in the West End of Aberdeen, some very strong Yes voters in my local but also some extremely strong No’s, not just the English guys who are all No’s but some of the Scots as well. One in particular who was calling Yessrrs Nazis at the weekend, at which point I told him he had lost the argument. Another Glaswegian Scottie who was very friendly has stopped talking to me since he spotted my YES Badge. Sad Bast*rd.
Ok Im a bit puzzled, on one hand Scots are being told you wont get the bbc if you vote yes and on the other hand the bbc are holding sports personality of the year in glasgow in Dec after the vote. Does that mean it will be hosted in Scotland but nobody in Scotland will be allowed to watch it?
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
X_Sticks at 4.32pm
Crikey if WM are clawing back planning laws in Scotland that would be a huge issue, I will look into it.
Yes, many many people are ignorant of the fact that the NHS in Scotland is a seperate organisation to that south of the border.
O/T
we were watching a couple of things on youtube quite late last night and bt ads came up a lot, could only skip after what, 2 mins…urgh! Anyone else been subjected to these? Maybe I am just a bit out of kilter with what’s happening though!
Re Rangers fans.
You shouldn’t assume, as i found out recently. A was discussing the referendum with a Yes voting workmate. I remarked that he wouldn’t be popular with his father and brother. They are Rangers fans and OO members. They go over to NI every year for the ‘marching season’.
Och they’re voting Yes too, he told me.
There are a lot of dim bastards in the Rangers support, but there are an awful lot like me that will vote ‘Yes’.
I told Wings this more than a year ago and I’m glad to be vindicated by this wee poll.
I think this section of polling can be immediately disregarded as it is clearly out of date. Heart of Midlothian but no Dundee?!
I’m somewhat surprised by the Arab and Hibee findings. I thought both would be YES-positive. The Motherwell results are a nice surprise, though.
Anyone want to comment on this article.It’s a chance to get across some truths to the americans
link to whittierdailynews.com
@dewal
Because it’s useful and informative.
it’s important to have an overview of where ignorance lies is it not? because without knowing that you can’t combat it.
Actually I’d be interested to see a poll of how many NHS employees know its a separate organisation, from experience , I think the results would be pretty depressing.
@Nigel
A wee link back to your source for text and images would be nice:
link to nairnyes.wordpress.com
link to yeshighland.net
Was interested in the Independence Rally photo and puzzled as to why there is none planned in this of all years?
Let’s try for a big turnout at this years annual Bannockburn rally. Here are the details so far.
Annual Bannockburn Rally
Saturday June 21
1.30pm Mayfield Centre (row of wee shops) Bannockburn village, facing Borestone Bar.
March from Roundabout on to Glasgow Road to field facing 1320 Inn for speakers.
Scoriach. 1314 Inn. Fiery Jack and others. Tickets £5, Children Free.
Bus 10.45 am from North Hanover St, George Square, Glasgow. £10 Children Free.
Pick up at Alexandria Station Car Park. 11.20 am
Leave 1314 Inn at 7-ish.
There is a ceilidh in the Tartan Arms in the village of Bannockburn afterwards. Those wishing to attend will have to make their own transport arrangements as it would be too costly hiring the coach to come back
Some Proclaimers for the YES minority nail-biting Hibbees out there
What makes you cry?
Can’t you see that I’m hurting
How I’m falling apart
Don’t you care about my drinking
Or my poor lonely heart
I thought you liked football
You didn’t mind those videos
And my dog didn’t mean
To ruin your clothes (he can’t help it)
My theory is there’s a reason for the high “Yes” totals in the bigger samples of football fans – mainly that they’ve got a ready-made community of people to talk to face to face about the referendum. In that context, a small number of Yes voices can make the arguments face to face and convince folk over a number of weekends and nights in the pub or in the stands.
@dkcm99
Surveys like this do reinforce the evidence that, for thousands of people, the Yes message has not yet penetrated the media fog. They will go to the polls preparing to vote No on a basis of sheer ignorance; and that, of course, is the way ‘Better Together’ wants it.
Where hope lies is in all of us doing our jobs to inform people over the summer. I still don’t think Yes will show a lead in the polls though – until the day itself.
Shouldn’t all the Hibs supporters be counted in the Not Interested in Football heading?
Or is that just for the grass widows who are all females and genetically programmed to be unable to make political decisions? (© JoLa)
See that the Yes teams tend to be generally in areas of more poverty or unemployment than the No teams.
In short, the secure and well-off are less likely to want change than the poor and despondent.
Sad, but true.
Just came across a postal vote today by a women that was born in 1914 and is voting SNP (EU elections).
“Some confirmation there for our long-held feeling that anyone who doesn’t like football is essentially a bit suspect.”
Probably quite right there.
I don’t like football – in fact I don’t get team sports in general because no individual wins in any meaningful way, just the vague, amorphous entity called the “Team”. It’s all too abstract for me.
I’m probably too simple (and ‘suspect’) to understand, but I remember asking a workmate from Fife why he supported Rangers (at that time seemingly full of foreign players) when he lived essentially on the other side of central Scotland. He wasn’t sectarian or stupid. I didn’t get it then – and I don’t get it now.
Nana Smith says, I have commented on the Whittler Times, they need the clean clear truth rather than it is all alicmsamminn’s fault.
@Les Wilson says:
O/T My son took my grandson to the cinema at the weekend,they where subject to 3 adverts from NOB, they did not go down well with the crowd.
Apparently some people complained about being hostage to watch them, ie not like a tv ad where you can switch the channel. They got their money back.
I was making the point over on Guardian CiF yesterday that unlike newspaper or TV propaganda, in a cinema you have no choice but to watch it.
I was saying that this would, in part, explain the booing and hissing, and that it was another example of BT shooting themselves in the foot.
I hadn’t thought of the ‘money back’ aspect.
So everybody who is subjected to these cinema adverts needs to boo and hiss when they are showing (to alert any undecideds in the audience to the propaganda), and then complain and ask for their money back at the end.
Spread the word.
(Free Cinema)
I agree with Steve B, there is a mix of responsibilities for Transport and Energy policy. Luckily the Scottish Gov could veto New Nuclear Build; not on Nuclear Energy policy, but on planning control.
On the other hand while The Scot. Gov. generally has last say on waste disposal and treatment it does not have this on Nuclear waste, where the SNP have stated they would prefer a near site solution.
So, those 2 questions were really wasted and bad choices imo.
The most useful finding was with the NHS, and it is an opportunity for the Yes campaign to publicise that it is a fully Scottish Run and supported(funded) organisation. Yet the base budget is controlled by London, with Scots having to take money from other services to support it. This also shows why a No vote will put Scottish health services at risk.
I also think that some limited powers we do have are just not workable. eg. Disease control is Reserved. Animal welfare is devolved. Then comes a Defra disaster across the whole UK. UK bails out English farmers from emergency funds (as they should). Scotland gets none and has to pay from its fixed budget as an animal welfare issue. INSANE.
Camz says, I would not write off all the well off, they are not always complacent and many are watching their investments and savings going down the Swan-nee at the hands of the Tories and their fellow travellers the Lib Dems so are not so happy with the status quo. I seem to remember reading someone from the more affluent part of Perthshire saying he and many he knew were voting YES. Remember we have the smart on our side.
O/T I was on You Tube looking at kiddie dinosaur cartoons for my 4 year old. Nearly every one of about ten preceded by a VNB / BT and.
O/T Just watching SKY news, it spoke of Farage not turning up for an event. Then a short interview with Milliband, during which he did not know the name of the local Labour MP.
The reporter pushed him for the name, he just looked gormless and could not answer. Interview cut then, then the SKY desk lady, just put her eyes up and down, kinda like “what a dork!” Amusing to watch.
Donald says:
Donald, they are everywhere. Obviously trying to counteract all the pro Indy vids. However, these are factual, usually from YES meetings up and down the land.
These are really what people want to see, real interaction, questions, explanations, and passion. They will eventually fade into their rabbit hole as people will just laugh, then watch what really matters.
EphemeralDeception says:
Hi here is why they will never, the can’t, devolve nuclear waste. Please take time to read it and be shocked.
link to nuclearwasteforgottenissue.blogspot.co.uk
Calgacus MacAndrews says:
Hi, you got what I was meaning! I think though they said they had been forced to watch political propaganda, which was the clincher. Same theory goes though.
If a lot do this, the cinema bosses will get reports on this happening, ie losing them money.
NOBS get laughed at and boo’d, shot themselves in the foot really. Further bonus is Scots of all persuasions will seriously not like this. More for YES!
Only time i ever went to rangers football stadium was to fill my borrowed pram with empty beer bottles cash them at the nearest shop for pocket money.
I remember watching the last time the Leerie came to light the close gas lamp we all used to play under and that puff cloud of hot steam when you ran up to the railway bridge to see the train thunder underneath.
When Glasgow was a beautiful city 1959, now it’s a mess.
Never been to a football match ever …….
The fact that we are keeping the Queen will help some of the Rangers guys to vote yes.
It doesn’t actually surprise me. Govan has voted SNP several times.
And we will still be British also.
It beats me why the YES campaign don’t campaign more with this ‘Better Britain’ angle.
The pro-Scottish vote is already wrapped up.
It’s those with dual identities we have to convince.
@Helena Brown
Good for you. Could do with getting more wingers commenting.
link to whittierdailynews.com
As many have said before here, I think you’ve been a bit mistaken about Rangers fans in the past. They are certainly not a Loyalist brain-dead mob: it’s just that the Loyalist brain-dead mob in their midst is particularly vocal.
Generally, football fans are more likely to vote Yes because they fall into Yes-tending demographics: they tend to be male and working-class (and maybe a bit younger too).
But generally, the figures about knowledge of Holyrood’s responsibilities don’t surprise me. There’s a culture of “proud ignorance” about politics in the UK generally, which is pretty much the reason why we have such massive inequality.
After all the slagging Rangers fans have taken on here it seems apologies are in order and the dons and Arabs are hard core unionists .
Just goes to show how wrong we can sometimes be.
I have to say as a bluenose it somewhat surprises even me.
These figures are making me miles more suspicious of the accuracy of the polling tbh.
Hibs for yes have been outside easter road for a few games this season and suggested to me that they have been overwhelmed by the response. Polls on the forums for virtually every team on the referendum are showing a strong yes for most sides too.
Maybe polling companies get a more representative sample of football supporters than the forums they post on, but I highly doubt it.
@Les Wilson says:
Calgacus MacAndrews says:
Hi, you got what I was meaning! I think though they said they had been forced to watch political propaganda, which was the clincher. Same theory goes though.
If a lot do this, the cinema bosses will get reports on this happening, ie losing them money.
It would be awful if Cybernats started standing outside cinemas handing out AYE RIGHT-style leaflets to people going in.
Naturally the leaflets would have full instructions on how cinema audiences must always, if forced to watch political propaganda, ask for their money back.
Just sayin’
As a jags fan and a yesser, I think those figures are out. All the Thistle supporters I know are for Indie.
As Stu says, they were very small samples and almost meaningless. However, much larger polls from football forums recorded some very encouraging results a couple of months ago. I made a note of them.
Partick 69%
Hibs 67.5%
St Mirren 67%
Celtic 64%
Inverness 61%
Don’t have the remainder of the Premier but an earlier poll on Celtic’s Huddleboard saw 490 out of 531 (92.3%) indicate Yes and 81.63% on Talk Celtic. I’m not sure if the 64% is another separate website or an overall average. Separate I would have thought. I also remember reading that 15% of Rangers fans on a particularly partisan site were voting Yes and being surprised it was that high!
Also, given that there is so much ignorance about who controls the NHS, Education etc, would it not have been worthwhile for the new Yes paper to do a feature on who controls what. Instead, I am underwhelmed by this new issue, four pages lighter than the previous one for some strange reason. The best thing about them is the three leaflets that go with them, especially the one detailing all the various websites where the undecided can go to get information.
Harry – just to add, one of the other busiest Celtic forums, Celtic Minded, had a poll on 22nd April which ended with 89% voting yes (322 to 37, no don’t know option).
Jambos KickBack had 53% for yes, 30% for no in theirs.
Harry
The papers don’t come with the leaflets, it’s those that deliver them that put them in, today we were putting LFI and Aye Right leaflets in them.
dkcm99
YES Maryhill will be up that way soon, we’ve just finished Summerston. Maryhill and Springburn are two massive areas that we cover and it takes time to get round all of it.
I’m alarmed by the people denouncing referendum-related cinema ads in principle. Yes Scotland is doing these too.
By all means react spontaneously if the content is awful, but if people start complaining about the principle we could find that Yes cinema ads are refused along with BT ones.
Slightly O/T but it is about football. Going to London next week for the Nigeria v Scotland game and there are messages on the TAMB saying there will be Scottish police there stopping anyone from entering with pro-independence slogans on flags. Be’ni is Nigerian for Yes so that’s what’ll be on mine : ) Unless any CID boys are reading this and take it off me!
I’ll be there also Diane. Not sure why the Scottish police have these instructions / I met the Scottish polis security guys in Serbia and else where , their only concern was safety not politics.
I’m a Jags fan, and I’ve met the guy at Firhill who’s a No.
Looking at these football results, YES campaigners have a lot of work do in the North East and Perth and inverness, (also for some weird reason in Paisley. Well done Motherwell and Parick Thistle supporters. The Scottish governments need to do more to educate the population on what are the devolved areas of responsibility, although people who canvass at elections always complain that the puplic never understand the difference between areas of Central and Local Government repsonsibily.
Well, some of us just refuse to let ourselves indulge in the opiate of the masses which the state promotes to keep us docile and distracted from the real problems, Stu. 😉
In an ideal world, we wouldn’t, but the problem is that BT’s ads are either disingenuous nonsense as meaningless as “we support our troops” or “we stand for fairness,” or outright lies as seen in No Borders. I respect the principle of referenda-related adverts in cinemas, but it’s pretty clear BT don’t.
Personally speaking, I’m not a fan of this sort of thing at all – you go to the cinema for a good time, not politics. If you’re on side, that’s fine, but if you’re not, it puts you in a foul mood for the rest of the evening. In any case, I find the BT/No Borders adverts so disgusting I would even accept seeing Yes adverts refused if it would stop the BT/NB lies from gaining traction.
If we must have referendum ads in cinemas, then ideally I’d prefer that both Yes & No ads were shown, obviously. Unfortunately both times I’ve been, it’s been BT’s.
@a2
“Because it’s useful and informative.
it’s important to have an overview of where ignorance lies is it not? because without knowing that you can’t combat it”
We on this and other Online blogs, Forums etc have known this for at least two years. The people on the streets DON’T and are not going to know in the next 3 months but at least We will be able to tell them why we lost.
Don’t look at the Polls. Look at the bookies.
NO 1/8
YES 3/1
@Morag
I’m alarmed by the people denouncing referendum-related cinema ads in principle. Yes Scotland is doing these too.
Count me as one “denouncing” the ads.
There is no compunction on Pearl & Dean to include a Yes message. The Nos I’ve seen come in twos. There is no debate, no explanation, it’s just a series of lies.
They are black propaganda, not merely exaggerations of truth, but downright lies. They are aimed at the most impressionable, the young.
Don’t like those Aberdeen results!
Out of 210 Dandies on this site, 65% say Yes 🙂
link to afc-chat.co.uk
I saw it coming and have banged on about the prejudices of the Dons fans on here for a long time. A lot of what is sung at Ibrox is about winding the opposition up.
Loyalism at Ibrox is not on the whole based on UK loyalism, its based on historic anti Irish sentiment. You see union jack or hear GSTQ and you assume NO voters.
There are of course some folk who support Rangers who are NO voters and see themselves as British but its the tail end numpties who wear England shorts or NI shirts.
Rangers having the most fans of any club is also no surprise. Any regular Scotland followers who frequented the TAMB(a Dons enclave on the net) will well remember them being shocked at the number of closet Gers fans in their survey 🙂
No comment on the Aberdeen numbers ? A hotbed of unionism up there….I expect Doug to be choking on his porridge this morning. 😀
In summary Rangers fans are the heart of the core YES support while Aberdeen fans are all David Mundell and Annabel Goldie clones…. 😀
Not that I socialise with Sevconians often ( 😉 ), but I do know of a few voting Yes.
A pleasant surprise!
I wouldn’t recommend walking into a bar full of Aberdeen fans and accuse them of being the heartbeat of Unionism, however. That would not be a pretty sight!
Is it Rangers or Sevco Holding Holdings International Ltd?
(lobs grenade..runs away…)
castle hills chavie says:
Harry
The papers don’t come with the leaflets, it’s those that deliver them that put them in, today we were putting LFI and Aye Right leaflets in them.
I’m aware of that, I am one of the folk delivering in the Hamilton area and spending a lot of the day inserting leaflets. I assumed they were the same as those being inserted in all the others but I see it’s different area to area.
Those odds of 1/8 are from some time ago, longests odds for No currently 1/4.
[…] winning today’s award is Murdo Fraser, for his analysis of the findings of a recent poll commissioned by Wings Over Scotland. The survey asked fans of different football clubs about their […]
I have never heard so much rubbish in my life.
Firstly, every poll that has been done on a Rangers fans website has found well over 75pc will vote No. Of course there are a few fans voting yes, but 45pc? Come on.
No matter your views on this, if you are a football fan you will know this poll is garbage
Sad to read about young scots waving salties at T in the park being asked to remove them because this event was being televised by the BBC.NO BIAS by the BBC I don’t think so.