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Wings Over Scotland


Scotland versus the Tories

Posted on July 03, 2018 by

We noticed a recurring theme in our latest Panelbase poll. In recent years Scottish politics has of course been defined mainly by the constitution, with all three major UK parties united in opposition to the SNP more or less reflexively. But if you strip out questions about the constitution, voters have largely reverted to the previous norm of a broadly centre-left consensus against the Conservatives.

For years now Lib Dem voters have shown up in polling as essentially Tories Lite, not because individual people’s opinions had changed but because most of the party’s traditional left-leaning voter base had abandoned it in disgust after the 2010 coalition which saw Lib Dem support plunge from 23% to 8% in a single Parliamentary term.

But now – although Lib Dem support has barely increased – things are changing.

In our poll we asked a series of questions about the Scottish Parliament’s devolved responsibilities, and the most interesting thing was the Lib Dems’ positioning relative to the other parties. The table has a lot of numbers in it, so we’ll summarise it for you.

The phrasing was “In your personal experience/opinion, how would you rate the overall state of the following public services?”, and the net responses came out:

THE HEALTH SERVICE

Overall: +17
(Good 46, Bad 29, Neither 25)

SNP VOTERS +46
(Good 62, Bad 16, Neither 22)

LABOUR VOTERS +8
(Good 41, Bad 33, Neither 27)

LIB DEM VOTERS +21
(Good 47, Bad 26, Neither 27) 

TORY VOTERS -22
(Good 26, Bad 48, Neither 27) 

EDUCATION

Overall: +19
(Good 46, Bad 27, Neither 27)

SNP VOTERS +52
(Good 64, Bad 12, Neither 24) 

LABOUR VOTERS +20
(Good 45, Bad 25, Neither 30) 

LIB DEM VOTERS +14
(Good 41, Bad 27, Neither 33) 

TORY VOTERS -27
(Good 26, Bad 53, Neither 21) 

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

Overall: +10
(Good 40, Bad 30, Neither 31)

SNP VOTERS +26
(Good 50, Bad 24, Neither 26) 

LABOUR VOTERS +6
(Good 39, Bad 33, Neither 28) 

LIB DEM VOTERS +7
(Good 33, Bad 26, Neither 30) 

TORY VOTERS -12
(Good 27, Bad 39, Neither 35) 

POLICING

Overall: +8
(Good 38, Bad 30, Neither 32)

SNP VOTERS +35
(Good 52, Bad 17, Neither 30) 

LABOUR VOTERS -6
(Good 30, Bad 36, Neither 35) 

LIB DEM VOTERS -7
(Good 28, Bad 33, Neither 40) 

TORY VOTERS -23
(Good 25, Bad 48, Neither 27) 

HOUSING

Overall: -14
(Good 25, Bad 39, Neither 36)

SNP VOTERS +9
(Good 38, Bad 29, Neither 32) 

LABOUR VOTERS -31
(Good 20, Bad 51, Neither 28) 

LIB DEM VOTERS -23
(Good 15, Bad 38, Neither 47) 

TORY VOTERS -31
(Good 16, Bad 47, Neither 36) 

Now, there are several quite interesting things about those stats. One is that the two where voters are least happy – policing and housing – are the two where the Scottish Government’s record is empirically the best.

Crime is at an 42-year low and police numbers at almost an all-time high, nearly 1000 higher than when the SNP came to power, yet many voters still have a negative view. A massive 48% of Tories think policing is in a bad condition despite those statistics, presumably because muggers still aren’t being publicly flogged and hanged.

And the Nats have built far more council housing than previous governments (9,195 in 10 years, compared to just 358 in the preceding eight years of Labour/Lib Dem rule), maintained housing-association build levels despite a decade of austerity, safeguarded social housing stocks further by ending Right To Buy, protected both social and private tenants, implemented a widely-envied affordable-housing strategy, effectively abolished the Bedroom Tax and ended stamp duty for the vast majority of buyers, yet have garnered next to no appreciation for it.

Conversely, the areas in which conditions are the most difficult and some stats are suffering as a result – health and education – are the ones voters are happiest with.

It’s also worth noting that despite an absolutely endless daily torrent of “EVERYTHING IN SCOTLAND IS TERRIBLE” propaganda from the media and the opposition parties, even most Unionist voters think services are holding up pretty well. Only 26% of Lib Dems think the NHS is in a bad way. Only 25% of Labour voters are unhappy with the state of education. Even where the net ratings are in the red, only one in three Labour voters think public transport is actually bad.

But what’s striking is that on everything except housing, the Tories are WAY out of step with the rest of the opposition. (Which in itself is also somewhat odd, as housing is the place where SNP policy is most unarguably redistributive from rich to poor, so you’d think Labour and Lib Dem voters would be happier.)

The gulf between Lib Dem voters and Tory ones on the state of the NHS, for example, is a colossal 43 points. And on education – despite Scottish Labour’s constant attacks on it, in lockstep with those of the Scottish Conservatives – their own voters’ opinions diverge from those of Tory supporters by a whopping 47 points.

And that’s strange because all these people are using the exact same services (except Tories, who are more likely to have private healthcare and education, which if anything you’d expect to be better), yet have wildly different perceptions of their quality.

Out of interest, we then asked our sample if they thought any of Scotland’s devolved public services would be better were they run by the UK government at Westminster instead. The response was pretty resounding.

Fully 60% of Lib Dem voters and 57% of Labour ones thought that even where they weren’t happy with Scottish services, things would be even worse if any of them were under UK government control, with barely a fifth being prepared to hand back any one in particular. (38% of Lib Dems, say, thought housing was being handled badly by the Scottish Government, but only 7% wanted it run by Westminster instead.)

Even 29% of Tory voters didn’t think any devolved services would do better under their own London colleagues. (Conversely, a completely bewildering 13% of SNP voters reckoned Westminster would make a better job of the Scottish NHS, which if nothing else does seem to prove that there are some sizeable gaps in NHS Scotland’s mental health provision.)

And weirdest of all, the MORE unhappy voters were with the state of a devolved public service, the LESS they wanted Westminster to run it instead. Health and education got the best ratings but also the most people (27% and 25%) wanting them returned to London. Housing, the least popular of all, was also the one that FEWEST people (just 19%) wanted taken away from Holyrood.

It remains a puzzle to us that a majority of Scots trust their own government to control all the things they rely on day-to-day, yet they still want to surrender all the most key powers to a government Scotland has rejected at the ballot box for the last 63 years.

But it’s clear that the Conservative Party is still at ideological odds with the vast bulk of Scots, including most of its Unionists. So far, Scotland remains a country that’ll do anything to free itself from the Tories except vote for it.

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    1. 03 07 18 12:56

      Scotland versus the Tories | speymouth

    2. 03 07 18 15:02

      Presenting survey data | scottishsnow

    3. 04 07 18 09:40

      Presenting survey data – Mubashir Qasim

    161 to “Scotland versus the Tories”

    1. mike cassidy says:

      A poll which shows 13% of SNP voters think Westminster would do a better job of the Scottish NHS is

      either a poll which needs to be treated very carefully

      or a poll which makes me wonder why the feck bother.

    2. manandboy says:

      Terrific stuff, Stu.

      But the puzzle remains, with so much support for the SNP in the day to day running of Scotland, why vote No in a Referendum? But its only a puzzle if you believe Westminster is honest, and the Tories are humble.

    3. Lenny Hartley says:

      Mike Cassidy, Its Simples, people are STUPID!!! Going by some of them that live near me Im surprised its only a high of 13%

    4. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Looking at the responses to the health service in particular, it would seem to indicate some measure of the power of the relentless attack propaganda from the usual media, combined with a politically-related readiness (or otherwise) to believe it.

      Presumably everyone else has personally had treatment from the NHS, or know someone close who has, and know better.

    5. Thepnr says:

      The Scottish people are told daily how bad public services are in Scotland, not though in comparison to the rUK but that they are just bad.

      The majority most likely do not even know that crime is at an all time low or that the Scottish NHS is better funded than elsewhere.

      Even 13% of SNP voters appear to have fallen for the daily lies pumped out by the media. You don’t need to be reminded of this but therein lies the problem and I despise them for it.

      Don’t buy newspapers or pay the telly tax and you will be better informed.

    6. Dan Huil says:

      These figures are good for the SNP and Holyrood, especially considering the never-ending onslaught by the rabid Britnat media. I believe more and more people in Scotland are rejecting traditional news outlets or at least seriously questioning its reporting. The more the britnat media fights on with ever-increasing hysteria, because that’s all it has, the more it will be rejected.

      People, apart from brainwashed britnats, are trusting their own experience.

      Everything is still moving in the right way: towards independence.

    7. Truth says:

      I think the housing one is easy to explain. Housing is ridiculously expensive, even with the amazing efforts of the Scottish Govt.

      So because this is personal experience, the result is negative.

    8. Mjack says:

      I think the reason Tories think Scotlands stuff is crap is that they get their news from Unionist outlets which constantly mix up stories about Englands services and failings with Scotland.

    9. Geordie says:

      Fascinating results, even the bizarre notion of some people voting SNP yet believing Westminster more capable in certain areas. I guess there always will be strange quirks (aka eejits) in every poll.

      However, genuine question – what do we do with poll results like this? Half of the population still lap up the media’s SNPbad propaganda.

    10. Les Wilson says:

      Yes, interesting facts there, there is no surprise that the Tories
      are the enemies of Scotland, how people could vote for them, do they not look at the policies they have introduced?

      We know they need Scotland absolutely, for many reasons, but take some of them away. It comes down to money for them, assets for them. Deceit and lies all the way help them do it, up to now.

      The ways of Westminster are really exposed these days, not by our media, but other ways across the internet, not least here on wings. It MUST make a difference on our road forward.

    11. louis.b.argyll says:

      Very good Rev.

      Now, where are those journalists to pickup on such conflicting, nigh on corrupted, opinion data.

    12. jfngw says:

      Hold on! SNP supporters that think Westminster would run things better. Are they being truthful, if so why do they support the SNP, it makes no sense.

    13. louis.b.argyll says:

      Some people,
      say they’re SNP,
      just like those who pretend they’re not Tories.

      They cause the illogical spikes in ideological responses.

    14. Macart says:

      Most people, I’d say, understand and appreciate that the SNP government are capable and doing a good job in exceptional circumstances. They are competent. They have achieved more in their short term in power than the others collectively with their decades of dominance.

      However, it is only just over eleven years. I’d imagine that fear, misplaced loyalty, apathy, a near total media dominance and saturation of orthodoxy narrative have taken a toll on people and their perceptions. The SNP’s short tenure is an eye blink politically and historically. And whilst their progress has been nothing short of impressive, the task of altering a majority of the population’s perceptions and expectations is a huge undertaking.

      Getting people to invest, to take pride in and work collectively toward a nation state they can call their own? After years of being told they can’t tie their own shoelaces without supervision is a fairly monumental undertaking. Quite literally on current evidence, we’re halfway there and it’s been done with none of the advantages enjoyed by the British nationalists. No big state machinery. No media saturation and on a fraction of the financial resources available to the opposition.

      Done peacefully and with respect for democracy to boot. That’s a superb achievement in such a short space of time.

      We WILL get there in the end. The question is when and will it be before or after Westminster’s system has had time to screw everyone’s lives up a little more? Will it be like a light switch being turned on, or are we going to have to wait for dawn through a long scary night? One event, or a pile up?

      One thing is for certain and I’d reckon completely inevitable. Westminster’s current politics has built up a considerable public backlash waiting to happen. When the poop hits the fan (and it will hit), the public across the whole of these islands are going go straight past the looking for answers part.

      I wouldn’t be a politician or a mainstream journo for all the gold in… etc.

    15. Giving Goose says:

      It’s my belief that Brexit will actually turn a very bright light on London Rule for those who, until recently, or currently were/are blind to see.

      Take for instance Jacob Rees-Mogg’s recent comparisons with the present Tory Government and Sir Robert Peel; when Peel forced through the repeal of the corn laws in 1846.

      Now that is a very illuminating statement to make by JRM.

      I read it as Rees-Mogg wishing to return to a time where society, economy and those holding power are identical to pre 1846.

      Is that really his world view and of his supporters?

      Transport the world of Rees-Mogg’s Britain pre 1846 to the present.

      1. The English Aristocracy holds the power to keep food and services atificially inflated and is the soul beneficiary of the profits.

      2. Tariffs are applied to imported goods to prevent 1. from being threatened.

      3. Democracy is rolled back so that there are no threats to 1. & 2.

      I usually laughed at Ree-Mogg and had him down as an eccentric old Tory with some sort of Dunkirk fetish.
      But he is absolutely not harmless. He and his supporters are actually very, very dangerous.

      From JRM’s view point, all this makes complete sense.
      Use Brexit as a vehicle to return the UK to a Victorian, elitist (i.e English Aristocracy), poverty racked (although he wouldn’t see it as poverty), controlled society.

      He and “his kind” are at the top, lording it, literally, over the rest of the population.

      Britannia reurned to her natural order.

      The more that the above intentions of the Tories become obvious for everyone to see, then the more the Scottish electorate will get behind Independence.

      Brexit needs to unfold some more. Give ’em enough rope etc.

    16. Mountain Shadow says:

      It would be good to try and get follow up information by asking folk who complete the polls to explain why they feel that Scotland is better off run from Holyrood but they would vote No to independence.

      That is the crux of the matter and these are the people that need to persuaded.

    17. frogesque says:

      Re health service:

      If say I have to go to A&E as, for want of better, walking wounded, I would fully expect a 4 hour wait to be sorted and discharged. I also accept that would be increased if a child is brought in on a trolley bleeding from head to toe.

      Relentless SNHS/SNPeee bad have given waiting times a wholly unrealistic expectations that any wait longer than 5 mins is unacceptable.

      Folk need to grow up! The skelf in your pinkie is not a life and death emergency, wait your (prioritised) turn, you will be seen but if someone hobbles in with their leg hanging off they WILL get seen first.

    18. Andy Anderson says:

      Interesting. I just do not get why so many are blind to facts. I know our media lies or says nothing but people talk. Obviously not enough.

    19. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      “A massive 48% of Tories think policing is in a bad condition despite those statistics, presumably because muggers still aren’t being publicly flogged and hanged.”

      Or maybe Scottish offenders know a Tory when they see one and target them preferentially. Probably nothing political, just that Tories are likely to be richer and have more to lose. A perverse way of equalizing wealth if you like.

      Interesting that IIRC the original Tories were a band of robber brigands … so, plus ça change … ?

    20. Clootie says:

      The demise of the brain washed generations of pre-1960 has an added bonus that the media sales will crash very quickly over the next decade.
      In my view the support for Independence is directly impacted by the constant negative output of the MSM.

      One day the light will go on for many Scots.

      In the meantime do not buy the Herald, The Scotsman, The Mail, The Express, The P&J, etc etc
      They are kept alive as tools of the Unionist State for propaganda purposes only.

      As for the BBC…tell everyone you know about their bias. Use examples like the Tory dirty money blindness as an example.

      Keep telling people about Wings, Wee Ginger Dug and other Indy sites.

    21. Nation Libre says:

      It’s time to go all in. The SNP should campaign for independence on the ‘vow’ to disband the party and not stand for Scottish Government reelection should there be another NO vote

      Time to give people a real shake. You only have to look at the above polling to see that at the first opportunity, the Tory Party will shut down Holyrood

    22. SmartBadger says:

      What this really shows is that a significant number of people, regardless of who they choose to vote for, have no idea what the hell is actually going on. Reality and facts do not figure in to their thinking, if they think at all.

      Sadly, this is a situation that suits the ‘elite’ of Westminster (and their stooges in Holyrood), and their media pals, who help to maintain it. Don’t expect it to change while every headline and every ‘news’ program is endlessly repeating the same half-truths, lies, and nonsense.

      People are stupid. Not because they choose to be, but because they have not been taught to think – they have been taught to trust; and the people they have been taught to trust are failing them. Do as your parents say; respect your elders; listen to your teachers; watch TV; learn this thing, use that book, answer these questions, do that exam – but don’t *ever* think for yourself! Free thought won’t help you pass exams! Reasoning won’t get you a job! The ‘journalists’, reporters, presenters, celebrities, politicians, think-tanks, and ‘business leaders’ take the public trust, and use it to craft sad little sheep, to be fleeced, herded, sold, and slaughtered.

      If the BBC started, tomorrow, to tell the truth, then by next week the polls would be 60% for indy – by next month they’d be 90%. They wouldn’t have to start being pro-indy, or even being all that positive about it; just reporting actual facts, good and bad, about both Scotland and the UK, instead of the current “Scotland is awful (if mention at all), but the UK is awesome!” that we get now.

      English exceptionalism, the illusion of Empire, and pure bloody-minded ignorance have long been traits of England as a nation; and, due to that exceptionalism, and deliberate erasure, have been traits of the UK, since the perception is that England *is* the UK. Those traits are foolish, childish, and sad; and are endlessly held up as noble, virtuous, sensible, and – worst of all – reality.

      We must gain independence. As the last colony of English empire, we must break free to – hopefully – give the English people the kick some of them need to finally see reality, and stop letting their government make a laughing stock out of them. When we go, I expect that NI won’t be too far behind – and then the fully subjugated Wales and Cornwall might start to shake off the shackles too.

      But, for now, the reality is that people don’t care about the facts. They don’t care that Scotland can – and should – be independent. They care that the man on the telly said the SNP had ruined the NHS. They care that the paper said the EU was trying to cheat the UK. They care that bake-off is on.
      We can’t win on facts. We can’t win on reality. Surveys like this one proves that the facts are not enough. We have to stick tot he facts – but we have to win on emotion. We can’t get people to vote on the facts about economy, or the facts about the NHS, or the facts of EU membership. We *must* get them voting out of pride, love, anger, disappointment, disgust, and excitement. There is no point arguing the facts – we must instead use them to get to the emotion. We must (sadly) stop correcting people, debating, and educating, and instead start pushing the information out, pro-actively, that affects people most directly. When someone claims the NHS is broken, there is nothing to gain from telling them otherwise – or worse, from saying “England is worse!”; instead, we should ignore that red rag, and say “Yes! It is! Now let’s work together to fix it – Labour and the Tories have both failed, and they are the only option in the UK, so let’s get independence to get new options!” Don’t try to correct their misinformation and abate their anger – redirect it and use it.

      I don’t think there is any other way to win.

    23. Cuilean says:

      Did some of the respondents even understand the questions?

    24. Breeks says:


      Truth says:
      3 July, 2018 at 12:58 pm
      I think the housing one is easy to explain. Housing is ridiculously expensive, even with the amazing efforts of the Scottish Govt.

      So because this is personal experience, the result is negative.

      I think housing is a special case. House prices are more realistic in Scotland than down South, but I don’t believe construction is in a good way at all. Design and fabrication is all homogenised, it’s the same stick build rubbish being built, maximum profit for minimum solidity and permanence. Built to last they ain’t…

      All your construction trades are dumbed down. Less and less expertise is required, less and less expertise is provided, less and less expertise is trained. Fewer and fewer skills being handed down.

      Look around your home town. Notice the chimneys, balustrades, pointing, and prevalence of vegetation growing where it shouldn’t. Scotland’s traditional, and by that I mean 19th Century predominantly, has been of the highest order. It’s masonry, it’s carpentry, it’s ironmongery, the whole holistic package was as excellent in Scotland as it was anywhere. So good, so durable, so resilient that we have become complacent about it.

      Without writing a long shpeel about it, our Construction Industry has lost the capacity to replace these buildings like for like. Typically, when we lose a a fine Georgian or Victorian stone built tenement to make way for a modern development, what we get new compared to what we lose is scandalous frankly, but so far, very few people see it that way.

      Look at your ecclesiastical buildings, your townhouses, your garden walls, your stone built steadings,… most of it has stood with bare minimal maintenance for over 200 years. Some of it is much older too. It is building of the highest possible caliber and character, but because we are spoiled by the quantity we have of such buildings, we are very complacent about our capacity to look after it. Anything else 200 years old would be in a museum.

      We have already lost the capacity to renew our stonebuild architecture. Our reservoir of such properties is no longer being filled. When something good comes down, something inferior replaces it.

      So, again, maybe our housing is in a better state than down south, but it’s still overvalued and dictated by schedules rather than quality. What I mean by that is we value property by how many apartments it has, not whether it’s substantially built to last, or stapled together boxwood.

      In a few years, couple of decades maybe, we are going to need a small army of tradespeople to maintain these buildings as they fail. That army doesn’t exist, neither in number or skill set. Unless we start thinking strategically, and purge NeoLiberal values from our Construction industry, the only remedial options we are going to have is demolition and replacement. That will be a shocking indictment of us all.

      The GSA is a warning to us all. Off the top of my head, it was 1905 I think. A comparative youngster, yet it will still test us to our limits just to replace what we have lost.

    25. Daisy Walker says:

      Housing…

      People see the field they love, on the edge of their town getting churned up and turned into little boxes.

      They don’t think – oh good, affordable housing – they think there goes the greenbelt, our precious countryside and wildlife – and it makes them feel powerless.

      People then see the completed houses and can’t afford them, and it makes them feel powerless. And they wonder, where are all the people coming from to buy these houses, and what jobs are they taking – and it makes them feel powerless.

      The people who can afford the houses, say in a nice low crime area such as Auchterarder for example, pay close to £400,000 for a brand spanking new house, and an unemployed, single mother, with numerous ‘chaotic lifestyle’ issues gets put into the ‘social’ housing immediately opposite.

      They don’t feel ‘powerless’, they feel aggrieved, so they start up a campaign to have this stopped, and they go round the houses in that area asking people to sign it. Not only that but they go to their local Councillors, and politicians, and moan about it.

      The Tories sympathise completely, the Lib Dems sympathise wetly and Labour, well, its Auchterarder, Labour don’t really exist in that part of the world, although rumours are, one was spotted 5 years ago, thought to be lost and possibly drunk.

      The SNP politicians, respond by saying, not very much really.

      In the mean time, the single mother with the chaotic lifestyle, has been the victim of numerous domestic violence type incidents, and wants a move back to the big city from where she came (cause that’s where all her pals are), and when she can’t get it, the house starts to get vandalised (by her), along with a cock and bull story to the Police about how someone else did it and she’s been victimised, cause this will strengthen her case for a move. And before you know it the brand new house has wooden chipboard over the front door and access is only ever by the rear door, and the kids toys litter the street where they are abandoned, and the car sits in the driveway, unused ‘mostly’ since she had her licence taken off her.

      And then there is a murder.

      And now the people in the area, who lets face it, are used to seeing next to no Polis in their area, see massive amounts of Police Officers for weeks on end, 24/7, sitting, front and back, protecting crime scenes.

      And they think, I’ve worked hard, I pay my taxes, I’ve saved up my money to buy a nice house, in a nice area, I don’t want to live in a run down scheme, this area is going to the dogs. This government couldn’t run a bath properly.

      And that my friends is what is going on.

      Lofty social ideas about quality housing, lifting people out of poverty. Fabulous (and before anyone has a dig at me, I fully support it), but, it is not how other people see it, or feel it.

      What I would love to hear more from the SNP whenever housing comes up, is robust answers.

      Housing is a good thing, its what responsible governments do.

      Quality housing with good insulation, has a huge impact on fuel poverty. That money in their pocket, then gets spent in local shops.

      How many jobs are created with the building of 100 houses. If they don’t know, they should damn well find out. And start shouting it from the rooftops, joiners, brickies, sparkies, plumbers, and, and and.
      How many apprenticeships,
      how many local businesses employed during the construction

      How many tories are private landlords, renting run down flats to the DSS, and charging a fortune to the government when the accommodation is not fit for habitation? And how loudly do they squeal whenever anyone tries to put through legislation to improve things.

      Social Housing, social housing is good thing, and one of the reasons is it enables councils to respond to complaints, so respond, beef up the anti-social enforcement side of things. Someone with a history of wrecking their accommodation should not be getting a brand new house. Come on.

      Be really good if the SNP started coming out punching re their housing policy, really good. But I haven’t seen any sign of it so far. Up to now all I see and hear is ‘we’ve built a lot of new houses’. Full stop.

      Rant over. Best wishes to all.

    26. K.A.Mylchreest says:

      As Macart reminds us, “it is only just over eleven years (since the SNP came to power at Holyrood)”.

      Funny, it seems like forever now. Just the normal, natural state of things. Hopefully each day brings more folk around to that POV as the seismic plates of politics shift imperceptibly towards Indy.

    27. jfngw says:

      Another reason for the lack of knowledge is they get their information from the BBC. If you watched today Reporting Scotland then you would assume drugs policy is 100% controlled by Holyrood, no mention that huge aspects of drugs control/treatment is not devolved and controlled by Westminster.

      Lies by omission is their stock in trade.

    28. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Thinking outside the box here.

      I wonder if some,maybe even lots, of the respondents who are less than impressed with A office police,N.H.S., education etc are calling for the non stop gift from Davidson and her weekly showdown with Nicola. It is not uncommon for Davidson to actually use figures from N.H.S. England etc to attack Scottish services. As per usual the Britney media RAIL completely to make any mention of these DELIBERATE LIES from Davidson!

    29. Brian Powell says:

      Yes, because voting for it would transfer responsibility to them. Voting in a cringe, whinny way is OK because if it fails they feel no connecting responsibility.

    30. themadmurph says:

      Rev.,

      I get a bit annoyed when I see things like “an historic”, but come on…

      “Crime is at an 42-year low …”

      that’s taking the p…

    31. Fred says:

      @ Giving Goose, anent the Dickensian Moggspeak, it took the Great Famine in Ireland to end the Corn Laws, Britannia sat on her arse blindfolded as the genocide did its work!

      Excellent “Long Letter” by Peter Bell in the National.

    32. Ken500 says:

      Why would anyone want to be a member of the LibDem, Tories, Labour or the Greens, especially in Scotland. Especially if they support Devolution (70%) or Independence (50%). If they want a better, equal, fairer, more prosperous place and increased democracy. Why would anyone not just vote SNP/SNP and vote for Independence. It’s a no brainer, No matter how the criminal Pollsters lie. To gerrymander and manipulate the vote. To make illegal £Billions for them and their cronies. Sanctioning and killing people.

    33. jfngw says:

      O/T but related to my last post.

      Looking at the drug stats grapgh posted by BBCPhilipSim, the interesting thing is the slope of the graph increase sharply not after the SNP came to power, but shortly after the Tories/LibDem coalition introduced their austerity policies. But I’m sure the BBC will only see this as a coincidence rather than a causation.

      https://twitter.com/BBCPhilipSim/status/1014065600790978560

    34. Welsh Sion says:

      Giving Goose @ 1:13 pm

      Re: Jacob Really-Smugg.

      Take a look at this. (And shudder).

      https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/vote

    35. jfngw says:

      Rev tweets- half of Tories want to shut down Holyrood.

      That’s fine by me, if parties advocating this put it in their manifesto and can gain more than 50% of the vote at Holyrood or the majority of seats at Westminster (this would require a subsequent referendum) then they have a mandate.

      On the other side of the same coin of course is that if parties that support independence receive more than 50% of the vote at Holyrood or the majority of seats at Westminster (referendum also required) they can declare Scotland independent. What could be more democratic than that, I wonder which is more likely.

    36. Gfaetheblock says:

      I do find bottom table an odd one to promote.

      Basically, Scotland had got the government it voted for 34 post war years to date, or 47% of the time.

    37. Scottish Steve says:

      I don’t know how the SNP have the patience to govern. Giving all these ungrateful people good services and protecting them from Westminster’s excesses and what do they get for it? Whinging and wailing.

      Perhaps these people who think they have it so bad should go live in England if everything is so superior down there. Ah, they wont because then they wont get their perks like free prescriptions, tuition fees etc.

      Much better to enjoy all that and have a good old moan. It’s not just the Scots that do it though. Plenty of people from other parts of the UK come to live in Scotland but then vote for unionist parties. The English in particular bring their love of Conservatism here. The sheer brass neck of it astonishes me.

    38. Gary says:

      It’s not that housing is an outlier here, it’s Health and Education that are the outliers.

      For one very simple reason – it is considered socially unacceptable to criticise Doctors & Nurse or Teachers.

      The NHS is beloved by all, it must NOT be criticised, nurses are actually called ‘angels’ by some. Teachers are not too dissimilar, ‘The Scottish Education System is the best in the world’ etc.

      If it weren’t for these ingrained attitudes we’d see them slagging off NHS and education too.

      Of course this attitude is actually Unhelpful in that even when we should criticise healthcare professionals – we don’t. There ARE poorly performing doctors and nurses out there, we’ve ALL met them. But we’ll excuse it as, ‘they work long hours’ etc.

      But, not distancing myself from my own remarks, our healthcare IS better than elsewhere in the UK. My daughter lives in the north of England and, although their staff are JUST as dedicated, they have less funding and a more poorly managed system than we do. She also has to pay for her asthma meds despite having a zero hour contract.

      Of course OUR NHS is suffering too. Our funding is utterly dependent on how Jeremy Hunt chooses to fund the English NHS and then we get the equivalent monies with the only difference being that we can choose to spend the funds differently. THIS has led to swingeing cuts to my local mental health provision with our local ‘day hospital’ having been discontinued after decades of helping people with mental health problems manage in the community.

      But the difference here is, Tories will blame SNP for this rather than blame Jeremy Hunt’s cuts. They wilfully misunderstand the system to reinforce their own ideology. We CAN’T reach these people. We have to reach the undecided among us..

    39. Capella says:

      In democracy, countries should get the government people vote for 100% of the time.

    40. galamcennalath says:

      Suppose it’s obvious.

      In 1983 General Election in Scotland the SNP received 11.8%.

      Where did all the new voters come from?

      I suspect very few from the Tories because they received 28.4% which is where they are again more or less.

      Of course previous LibDem and Labour voters is the source of new support.

    41. Ken500 says:

      The SNP have pledged to build or renovate 6,000 houses affordable a year over a five year term. There are 17,000 private houses built a year in Scotland (at present). No of deaths a year 50,000.(higher no than births). More houses become available. 1/3? 17,000. In five years there should be enough houses available. 40,000 a year. There are more houses standing empty etc now. Than people needing them. Some not a suitable type or in a different area etc. Homelessness is a complex issue. It can occur because of relationship break up, unemployment, addiction problems or not enough support for vulnerable people etc.

      The Councils are getting the funding from the Scottish Gov for affordable house buildimg. How many will get built? Over what time scale by these useless incompetent unionists. Keeping the SNP out of power in the councils. Even though the SNP have the most representatives. Two job Tories keeping the unionists in power so they can continue to ruin the local economy. Borrowing and spending like there is no tomorrow, £Billions in debt.

      The unionists wasting public money on any non mandated nonsense that comes along. Building offices, hotels and shops. When there are empty shops, office and under occupied hotels. Not building affordable, houses and schools. Cutting allocated funding on essential services and education. Using the statutory limit (30) as the norm. Keeping class sizes too high. Leading to a shortage of teachers. Then illegally cutting £Millions of the allocated budget to squander and waste. On non mandated grotesque monstrosities no one wants. Concrete jungles. Instead of open spaces and pedestrianisation.

    42. Macart says:

      @jfngw

      Yep, saw that tweet. Couple of ironies to consider.

      1. A party that has never believed in the need for a Scottish parliament and historically campaigned and voted against its creation are allowed to sit there week after week telling Scotland’s population just how uniquely shite we all are. A party of central government mired in every scandal you’d care to imagine and associated with appalling acts against its own population.

      2. The intolerant within society rely upon the tolerance of others in order to exist and spout their intolerant mantra.

      (shrugs) Two of life’s unsolvable mysteries right there. 😉

    43. Thepnr says:

      @Capella

      A point well made. It is only possible for Scotland to get the government people vote for 100% of the time if Independent.

      That is the whole point, Westminster is unaccountable to Scotland so does what it likes whether we agree or not.

    44. Alastair Dallas says:

      I like what Robert J. Sutherland says. I have had recourse to the NHS is Scotland and am alive because of it – BUT its bureaucracy. needs looked at.

    45. Welsh Sion says:

      Just a wee point, Rev. Stu.

      For Policing:

      LIB DEM VOTERS -7
      (Good 28, Bad 33, Neither 40)

      Shouldn’t that be -5?

      Yours pedantically,

    46. Dr Jim says:

      *Ask me something I know* is an old saying in Scotland and therein lies the problem with polls, they ask questions about something which people don’t know but people being people they answer the questions usually with somebody else’s opinion they heard somewhere else

      It’s perfectly obvious that Tories will answer in the negative about almost everything in relation to the Scottish government and Holyrood so any poll of Tories on anything is a pointless exercise and pretty much the same applies to Labour as well

      So how do you properly gauge the the opinions of a population who are largely uninformed of the facts on anything then ask that they vote on those facts….You can’t, just as the Brexit vote in England has shown, it was an emotional vote in an emotional campaign designed to produce the result it did for those who desired that outcome, and they won even though everybody knows it was all lies

      So what do we learn *I have a dream* those four words spoken in the right way by the right man have still proved to be the most powerful four words in recent history

      Facts are good and useful tools in a debate but when it comes right down to it people want to trust and feel good about the power of what’s being said and the conviction of the person saying it

      Nicola Sturgeon has that power and we know she does, it’s time she stood up and used it

    47. Ken500 says:

      The SNP increased spending on the SNHS to mitigate the Westminster Tory cuts. The SNP increased the budget from £10Billion to £12.5Billion over five+ years. Nearly £1/2Billions year. Including an increase in social personal care. To keep elderly people in their own home. It saves costs. Personal care £60-100 a week, residential home care £600+ a week, NHS £600+ a day. SNHS takes over 1/3 of Scottish block grant, from taxes raised in Scotland. £54Billion+

      MUP will save SNHS money. £1Billion a year? Addiction problems can prevent people working. It seriously affects people’s health. The SNP (Gov) are trying to do something about junk food. To reduce obesity problems. There is a UK sugar tax.

      Cameron and Clegg elected to protect NHS and Education cut them both. They intended cutting NHS £20Billion for 2015 to 2020. £4Billion a year. They cut Education £6Billion a year. £3Billion a year they will not get back. Increased student loans in the rest of the UK. £6,000 a year. Betrayed their promises. Intending to cut welfare spending over 6 years. £18Billion. £3Billion a year.

      Sanctioning and starving people. It costs more on other services. Increasing the need for food banks. A public disgrace. The Tories unionists are spending £Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2 and Trident. A total waste of public money. Brexit is an absolute scandal. The expense of it is totally unaffordable,

      The Tories unionists are going after the vulnerable. The old, the young and the sick. Struggling one parent families. The SNP Giv has mitigated the cuts. £100,000 a year. More is being invested in more comprehensive nursery care. More hours available. School diners available for primaries 1 to 3. An increase in breakfast clubs in schools etc.

      In Scotland NHS costs because of a higher % of older people demography. (Pro rata) ). There is less spent on (UK) gov OA pensions (pro rata) because people die younger in Scotland.

    48. Ken500 says:

      Mental health problems have increased in the UK because of the Tory unionist Gov. Their policies are making more people depressed and anxious with worry. They do not sleep. Tired, hungry, anxious people can’t sleep and get sick. Brexit has made people anxious and worried.

    49. Dr Jim says:

      As if by magic Nicola Sturgeon has spoken and Keith Brown has just emailed all SNP members

      The campaign starts now

    50. Ken500 says:

      The SNP have mitigated the Tory unionist welfare cuts £100Million a year.

    51. Robert Peffers says:

      @Andy Anderson says: 3 July, 2018 at 1:28 pm:
      ” … I just do not get why so many are blind to facts.”

      In many cases it would seem they are not actually, “Blind to facts”, but are mentally innumerate.

      Trouble is, those who are, make up a bigger than average proportion of Labour Party, elected to office, people. Furthermore, there are more than enough examples of that being factual right here on Wings.

      Has not Rev Stu published enough articles right here on Wings exposing various Labour Party spokespersons lack of numeracy?

      The use of Jackie Baillie’s wonky calculator, and of course the Labour party, jointly owned, abacus use by elected members of the Labour party is legendary.

      Mind you it is rumoured that Jackie fell heir to said piece of electronic wizardry from a certain hecht heid ane of the LibDem party who had no further use for the machine.

      It was intended to replace the Labour Party, jointly owned, Abacus but the subsequent continued use of the abacus is still fairly evident from quoted Labour Party Press Releases on the State Propaganda Channels run by the BBC.

      Perhaps the Labour rank & file members, the Co-op party or even the Scottish TUC could crowd fund a new improved Labour Party abacus? Strikes me a separate and individual abacus for Mr Richard Leonard could be borrowed from Mr Corbyn – – No! Strike that!

      It has been brought to my notice that Mr Corbyn’s abacus is reported to also be missing a bead or three.

    52. Petra says:

      I wonder what the results would look like if the population was asked basic questions relating to, as examples, what’s devolved to Scotland, who has control over our schools / education, what percentage of control does Holyrood have overall, how many newspapers are owned / controlled by Scots, how many newspapers support independence, how resource rich are we compared to …., where does our money come from, have they heard of the McCrone Report / Stolen Seas etc, etc.

      I reckon the results would highlight that MANY Scots don’t have a blooming clue. The findings would show that they think that the SNP has 100% control over absolutely everything including local Council responsibilities, our money comes from London and so on. Right now the only thing that’s mitigating total SNP “negativity” to some extent is Tory Brexit bedlam and Tory hospital hell down south, news of which gets covered by the BBC.

      It doesn’t help either and is even quite telling that you get people on here of all places, who should know better, complaining about the SNP’s lack of response to issues when in fact there is no lack of response from the SNP at all, just the Unionist controlled media using every trick in the book, propaganda tactics …. suppression, repression, cherry-picking, omission etc, etc …., to brainwash the population north and south of the border. That’s why, in fact, we all find ourselves visiting sites like this, Scotgov and SNP.org. Have to visit sites like this in search of truth, knowledge and facts.

    53. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Gfaetheblock @ 14:50,

      Virtually every single time, Scotland accidentally gets the government that someone else chose, you FibDem fool.

      How many times did the Scottish vote make an actual difference to the UKGov elected? And in every UKGE, English politicians declare sneeringly that we’re the tail that must never be permitted to wag the UK dog.

      So much for free choice and “equal partners”. But even Mundell has abandoned that absurd pretence now.

      So do try to keep up.

    54. Another Union Dividend says:

      O/T

      Once again STV “Scottish News” output cut to 5 minutes in order that we can enjoy 45 minutes of waffling jingoism about a foreign football team. Another Union Dividend

    55. Ann says:

      Torie voters seem to be on a different wavelength from everyone else.
      Wonder if they’re ever happy, or just see a negative in everything.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      I often wonder if Tories are in fact human, as they generally lack a connection with reality and so are unable to engage empathically with their surroundings.

      Review of “Political Psychology: Critical Perspectives”

      Abstract

      The core focus of “Political Psychology: Critical Perspectives” is an interrelated set of European-based theories and perspectives that emphasize both the social context of the individual and the capacity of citizens to engage in strategic discursive and rhetorical agency. Through an explanation of social representations, social identity, self-categorization and other theories, Tileag? raises questions about mainstream methodologies in political psychology and offers alternatives. The core achievements of the book consist of the integrated presentation of a range of critical European-based political psychology approaches as well as a subtle exploration of the interplay between the individual and the social.

      Keywords: critical, discourse, rhetoric, social identity theory, social representations, self-categorization theory, memory, narrative, public opinion, values

      https://jspp.psychopen.eu/article/view/342/html

      Handbook of Critical Psychology
      https://toleratedindividuality.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/handbook-of-critical-psychology.pdf

      Persons: Understanding Psychological Selfhood and Agency
      Chapter 2
      A Theory of Self and Personhood for Psychology

      https://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9781441910646-c1.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-802602-p173913829

    57. Josef Ó Luain says:

      Many people, I have observed, openly admit (almost with pride) to “knowing-nothing” about Brexit, the case for Scottish independence or Scottish politics in general, this despite the mass of info available to them. One huge problem with that is the fact that they can’t help but cobble together opinions/positions based upon whatever comes-to-hand, mainly from the MSM. Another huge problem is: the older they become the more entrenched their thinking becomes. Nope, I don’t have the answer to that one either.

    58. Luigi says:

      Don’t blame the people folks. They are not stupid, only misinformed.

      11 years of relentless SNP BAD propaganda, contrasted with signs of good governance.

      Result: Complete and utter confusion.

      Good enough,as far as the britnats are concerned.

    59. Thepnr says:

      back to Brexit, it might be that we are approaching the end game with this weeks sleepover at Chequers where decisions must be made and proposals drawn up for the white paper that will go to Brussels.

      After reading this post from Robert Peston I really don’t hold out much hope for a successful conclusion this weekend.

      “This is one of the more important notes I’ve written recently, because it contains what well-placed sources tell me are the main elements of the Prime Minister’s Brexit plan – which will be put to her cabinet for approval on Friday.”

      http://archive.li/g4s6a

      There is no hiding now and the Tories will most likely continue to bluff and bluster. Personally I think we’re headed for another General Election this year.

    60. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Thepnr @ 18:13,

      It seems the Chequers “last showdown” is going to be a bunch of deluded incompetents squabbling over a cherry-picking fantasy that has already been rejected as inadequate by the EU27.

      Rats fighting in a sack while the gardener gets out the shotgun.

      Like you, I am increasingly coming to believe there will be another UKGE by year end.

      Which will of course fail to resolve anything.

      “Do-Nothing” Corbyn, “Snake Oil” Gove or “18th-Century” Rees-Mogg. What a grim choice.

      The English are welcome to whichever fool they prefer. Personally I want rid of the lot.

    61. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      (Whoops, apologies for the splurge of italics in my last posting. Omitted something somewhere, obvs… )

    62. Capella says:

      It’s the media.

      I notice that, every time there is a SNHS story on the BBC website, the last two or three paragraphs are devoted to SNPBad quotes from the Tories, the Liberals and Labour, sometimes also Greens.

      On checking the lead ENHS story, there are no quotes from the Westmnster opposition parties to provide “balance”. In fact, the problems of the ENHS are not framed as Tory problems at all but problems within the area Trusts.

    63. sandy says:

      It’s a fact that some people still think that eggs, milk, meat, veg, come from a supermarket shelf!

    64. Capella says:

      @ CameronB Brodie. I’ve noticed that myself. David Icke had a point. Tories often look like lizards from outer space who are not very comfortable in their earthling bodies.

      I wonder which planet they came from.

      You can amuse yourself during particularly boring FMQs watching them wriggle about, trying to twist their wee faces into a rictus smile.

      Or it could be that telling lies all the time makes people look shifty and alien. 🙂

    65. Capella says:

      I see the football has started. England v Colombia. Keep us posted.

    66. Ken500 says:

      Drugs policies and responsibility were devolved to unionist councils who did not care. They would rather build unwanted shops and offices and under occupied hotels costing £Millions. Borrowing £Billions selling Cities in the stock market. Campaigning to put the addictive homeless in jail.Then provide and fund proper ‘one chance’ total abstinence rehab counselling facilities. They are absolving of their responsibilities. While people are dying on the streets.

      The Health Boards used to provide funding for proper treatment. Except Grampian who would not fund primary care. Or it has to be funded privately. In most circumstances it can be a relatively small cost in terms of life chances and affordable. In saving lives and rehabilitation. Only ‘total abstinence’ treatment should be funded. ‘One chance’ highly necessary. If people relapse. They still have the information to aid recovery. AA and NA can really help people wuth addiction problems. It can help them to understand their problems. It’s never too late to learn.

      ‘Shooting up’ rooms or methodone is questionable. Only for as short a period as possible. Most drug related deaths are linked to methadone being prescribed. Then other substances are consumed. Leading to death. Many Dr practices will not prescribe methadone for that reason. It increases drug deaths. Kills people younger. Dead by forty. Methadone is more addictive than heroin. It can cause more health problems,especially with long term use.

      Alcohol abuse does more physical damage to the body. To the liver and the brain. A poison and a depressant. The body become increasingly alcohol dependent. Drug/drink abuse is also linked to crime. People become unable to work or sustain relationships and families ties. It can cause major distress and can run in families. Genetic?

      Many Doctors do not get proper training in drug/alcohol addiction, unless they specialise. It should be compulsory. It is such a major problem. MUP will save lives. Young people are reported to be drinking less. ‘Heeding warnings’ The middle age and older women are drinking more by comparison.

      Drink/drug abuse was the responsibility of the Health Boards but was devolved to the Councils under social care legislation. The councils as usual have reneged on their responsibilities. Not used the allocated funding for essential services. Cutting it to fund non mandated, grotesque, non essential projects costing £Millions, that they had have not got. While people are dying on the streets.

      They want the (addicted) homeless locked up in prisons which cost more and criminalises. Leading to more social problems. Too many people are arrested and put in cells on ‘charges’ which can never go to Court. Too many people on the spectrum are in prison because their needs are not understood or properly met. Not enough awareness, which should be highlighted and accommodated to help, in society.

      Thatcher ‘care in the community’ – prison. Shut all the mental health facilities.

    67. Ken500 says:

      The Tories go red when they are telling lies. Davis, Gove, Johnston, May etc. Some are alcoholics. Just look at their faces. Alcoholics make poor judgements or decisions. More worried about where their next drink is coming from. Many are creative, talented and able people. They need professional help.

      Cameron was permanently red and flushed. It is reported he ate a 3 course roast beef or pig lunch and drank a bottle of red wine. In the HoC dining room. He drunk more in the evening. Like his hero Churchill. Osbourne was a drug taker. Cocaine. Took even more from the grneral public and the public purse. Mundell looks anxious, tired and emotional. So do the usual suspects in Westminster. The high ‘rotten borough’ Tories. Gerrymandering. A crime.

    68. Thepnr says:

      The 1957 Treaty of Rome established the European Economic Community forerunner of the European Union.

      Article three says: “The activities of the Community shall include?.?.?.?the elimination, as between Member States, of customs duties and of quantitative restrictions on the import and export of goods?.?.?.; the abolition, as between Member States, of obstacles to freedom of movement for persons, services and capital.”

      So these are the “four freedoms” that are the essence of the single market and without which there would be no European Union.

      1. Free movement of goods.

      2. Free movement of services.

      3. Free movement of people.

      4. Free movement of capital.

      England wants No 1, it wants a limited version of No 2, does not want anything to do with No 3 but is happy enough with No 4. Sorry but it’s all or nothing.

      They have been told enough times and in no uncertain manner that there will be no cherry picking, it’s all or nothing else the European Union might as well not exist. Which part of this don’t the useless Tory government get?

      This government is toast, it has to be and it will be at the hands of their own Tory Brexiteer rebels such as Gove, Johnson, Fox and Rees-Mogg with a few Scots Tories thrown in among them.

      Good going Tories, knock yourselves out.

    69. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 16.41

      Really not sure how I am a ‘fibdem fool’, I am a member of no political party. The rest of your post is angry whataboutery and baseless assertion, the standards for this website are to reference your claims, so happy to read any data or links you have, if you have them.

      As you say, do try and keep up.

    70. Ken500 says:

      Does anyone one have a clue what the Tory – unionists are doing. They do not know themselves. Neither does anyone else. They haven’t got a clue. This will go on until they are voted out. Then some other sod will start another carry on. The poison chalice. They haven’t a clue what they are doing, Totally useless. The Danny Dyer summary. ‘Where is Cameron?’ ‘Where’s Wally’ Find Wally to hold to account. Echo chamber.

    71. Ken500 says:

      Was Scotland’s influence at Westminster. 6% or 0.6% outvoted 10 to 1. Rev Stu did an article about it.

      One of the reasons the Holyrood Parliament was set up and Devolution was established. To balance the democratic deficit at Westminster. Or the UK would lose EU Membership status. The principles of self determinations and human rights within the EU Treaty adhered to. The conscription of members. De Gaulle always used to veto British membership. He thought Westminster and their cronies would not be team players.

    72. Legerwood says:

      I see Mr Sillars is headlining again in the on-line Herald.

    73. Welsh Sion says:

      For Capella (and maybe a few others) … not that I’m actually following, y’understand.

      Half-Time.

      Colombia 0 The Neighbours 0

    74. Calum McKay says:

      YES must get the message across, key responsibility of Keith Brown is to push this message to dovetail with Indy Ref 2!

    75. Thepnr says:

      @Capella

      Columbia 0-1 England. Daft penalty given away by Columbia. Harry Kane scores and is the top scorer in the World \cup.

    76. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Gfaetheblock @ 19:38,

      You are “Colin Alexander” and I claim my £5.

      (If you have such an apparently shallow understanding of the longstanding fundamentals of UK parliamentary elections, you are either a knave or a fool.

      OK, maybe it’s the former, then.)

    77. Stravaiger says:

      I hope England win the world cup.

      I reckon the resultant gloating would drive a fair few Scots towards the cause of independence…

    78. Kangaroo says:

      Ripper Yeah 1 – 1 go the boys in Yella!

    79. Thepnr says:

      @Capella

      Columbia 1-1 England goal scored in time added on, looks like extra time coming now.

    80. Iain says:

      Ah wot a shame.

    81. Morgatron says:

      Sitting in a hotel in Croatia, and nearly launched mysel and my 6ft6″ son through the roof. Now for my fellow Celt brothers from Columbia to win it.

    82. Welsh Sion says:

      Here’s hoping the match goes to penalties … he he he …

    83. Morgatron says:

      My fellow guests are now wanting to leather me. Im sure the hotel manager booked me for removing my shirt in celebration whilst running through the Engeraland end of the big screen lounge!!

    84. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert J Sutherland

      Doubling down on the insults, you really must be have no references for the assertions you were pushing earlier.

      Studied poltics at edi uni in the late 90s, followed it since my teens, so relatively comfortable in my knowledge of UK politics.

      I am no Colin Alexander, are you?

    85. Lenny Hartley says:

      Why are people posting on here about a fitba game involving two foreign teams, i came on here to get away from that shite on face book, so dont think ill bother reading wings again for a while.

    86. Hamish100 says:

      ot

      Listen to our MP Patricia Gibson SNP particular after 15 mins being harangued by the tories and lib dem. She does extremely well.

      https://www.patriciagibson.org/single-post/2018/07/03/IMPLICATIONS-FOR-SCOTLAND-OF-LEAVING-THE-EU

    87. Morgatron says:

      Lenny, what you wanna talk about. Butbif you could hurry up as penaltys are coming up. Ta .

    88. Kangaroo says:

      Lets hope the SNP call for a division vote on something, anything really.

    89. Kangaroo says:

      Bugga.

    90. frogesque says:

      Fuck! Another week of England fuckaboutery.

      Wouldn’t be so bad but they are shite!

    91. Abulhaq says:

      BBC ‘national news’ 6pm, drug deaths in Scotland highest for 20 years, usual sad, ‘stereotypical’ Scottish types interviewed, pictures of syringes in Glasgow etc. Implication Scottish gov not doing enough.
      Contrast with England’s high hopes in Russia and interviews with fans in Brighton.
      The contrast couldn’t be more stark. Sunny Scotland is a dump, it’s sunny Brighton we need to be.
      In spite of the result..¡ARRIBA COLOMBIA!

    92. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Frew on penawltees. Aow well Colambiah, nao ‘ard feewings eh?

      *extends hand for a friendly shake, pulls it away at the last second*

      NYAHHHHHH-AHAHAHAHA!

    93. Robert Peffers says:

      There are a few things that need to be considered about how the English/British class system works and it can explain at least some reasons why, most Scottish people do not really subscribe to it. That is, besides the traditional old Scottish belief that, “Wir aa Jock Tampson’s Bairns”. This saying originated in the Duddinston parish in Edinburgh.

      Jock, (John), Thompson was a much loved cleric at Duddingston Kirk and he treated all those in Duddingston Parish, whether of his congregation or not, as if all being members of his family. Hence the claim, “Wir aa Jock Tampson’s Bairns”.

      Thus there was no class distinction in Duddingston Pairish. Now compare that with the English class system that tears the tender child from the family and send it to a private boarding prep school that for some strange reason they call part pf the English Public School system. Mind you all Prep Schools are not boarding schools.

      After Prep school the child is packed off to Public School and most are boarding and until fairly recent times mainly one sex establishment they are thus subjected to an unnatural environment. Empathy, if nothing else, is not greatly supported but encouraged by the fagging system.

      The child is thus torn from the home environment at a very early age and this is followed right through their years in the Public School system. The, “cream”, of such educated people rise to the top and form Tory Governments.

      They see nothing wrong with starving the poor, old, sick and disabled to death or forcing many thousands of the population to live and sleep on The United Kingdom’s streets.

    94. Petra says:

      @ Thepnr at 7:33pm …. Good post.

      The Westminster thickoes could be doing with you at Chequers this week, Thepnr, with your whiteboard or even a blackboard and chalk. Get the “four freedoms” on there, use your pointer to drum it into them and the duster (around the noggin) to reinforce the concepts.

    95. Old Pete says:

      Columbia were absolutely garbage. Sick to the teeth already with the “us”, “we” and “our” from the telly pundits and presenters. I am Scottish and England are not my team. Nothing against the English team but I hope Sweden beat them and shut the media idiots up. Please God, please.

    96. Sinky says:

      Capella says at 6.59
      As BBC always have three opposition comments for every Scot Gov issue we should pro actively challenge on why they rarely if ever have a quote from third largest party at Westminster when a UK Gov issue

    97. ScottieDog says:

      @Old Pete
      I no longer have a TV licence thanks to suggestions by folk on here. I have seen the odd half of a game in hotels etc and the football has been really good. I just turned off the sound and enjoyed what I saw.

      As for England, well I’m guessing there must be a few English YESrs on here who want their team to win as do a good few of my very nice work colleagues. For their sakes I wish England well.

      Just press mute. It’s easy mate and it makes you feel much better.

    98. Elmac says:

      Re lenny hartley at 9.29

      Could not disagree more.

      It may be just “a fitba game involving two foreign teams” but the hype goes far beyond that of a normal football match. Watch it without the commentary and its fine, otherwise it is a demonstration of the arrogant sense of entitlement that bedevils our southern neighbours. It is a barometer of their inability to treat others as equals. It shows the same arrogance that runs through all their dealings with others, including Scots, Welsh and Irish, let alone Columbians. If you want to understand why they are largely despised the world over then tune into their coverage of the World Cup. To that extent I think the “fitba” comments have a place here.

    99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Gfaetheblock 21:22,

      Odd, you have the same high-school debating style.

      Try reading the “Wee Blue Book”, Section 1 “Principles and politics”. Read and absorb.

      Or try this one:

      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11552991/The-general-elections-where-Scotland-decided-who-ran-the-UK.html

      (It’s a Tory BritNat paper, so you should trust that. =cough=) The authors conclude that in only three elections did Scotland’s vote make a difference, and these were all in very unusual years (1951, 1964 and 1974) where the contests in England were exceptionally close.

      Mostly though the government of the UK is chosen by a relatively small number of marginal English seats, to which the UK parties devote a disproportionate amount of attention (and spending).

      And we here in Scotland might as well not exist, electorally speaking.

      But then as a “politics grad”, you know all that already, don’t you?

      Lord knows what our higher education institutes are doing these days, if they can give politics degrees to people like you who don’t seem to understand just how much of a democratic deficit Scotland suffers from, even when the hard facts are staring them in the face, and multiplying by the day.

      But then, as Stu’s poll results demonstrate, there are always going to be some who just won’t see. Not least, as someone once wisely observed, where their salaries depend on them not understanding.

      It’s just that most of them don’t appear on here with their boring old gaslighting tricks.

    100. Rock says:

      The SNP is giving the Brit Nat unionists the best of both worlds.

      The austerity governments at Westminster combined with incompetent Labour-Lib governments in Scotland and Brexit would probably have resulted in a 10% majority for independence by now.

      In three months’ time, Nicola will declare that there will not be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed.

      Scotland was on the verge of independence after the Brexit vote but Nicola spectacularly squandered a once in a 1000 years golden opportunity by wasting more than a year flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.

      Now there is little prospect of independence for at least 622 years.

      In my humble opinion.

    101. Phronesis says:

      Brexit- a comical delusion, a frivolous inconvenience, the end of global Britain. Excellent timing for Global Scotland.

      ‘Since the June 2016 Brexit referendum, British foreign policy seems to have all but collapsed – and even to have disowned its past and its governing ideas.
      Worse, this has coincided with the emergence of US President Donald Trump’s erratic administration, which is pursuing goals that are completely detached from those of Britain – and of Europe generally…Trump’s evident lack of personal chemistry with British Prime Minister Theresa May – and the Anglophobia of his new national security adviser, John Bolton – ensured that this was never going to be the best of times for the United Kingdom. But it also doesn’t help that generations of British foreign-policy hands have regarded themselves as ancient Greeks to America’s Rome…

      Negotiating the terms of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union is likely to take years… a campaign in Scotland to link it to the EU rather than to London will continue to command the attention of the government and civil service for the foreseeable future…

      A country like India could potentially be a major UK trade partner after Brexit. The problem is that Indians see Britain and Europe as one market. To them, Britain’s quest to adopt its own rules and standards amounts to a frivolous inconvenience. Before expanding trade and investment with Britain, India will most likely pursue a deeper relationship with the EU. Indeed, India never saw Britain as a particular champion of its interests inside the EU…

      Likewise, most of those outside of the “Leave” camp regard the Brexiteers’ aspiration for Britain to lead the vast “Anglosphere” into a brave new world as a comical delusion.

      https://www.socialeurope.eu/the-end-of-global-britain

    102. @Robert Peffers

      The English upper class structure is based on the Spartan model,

      where the child 5/6 is taken away from parents to be instructed in loyalty to the State not the family,

      `The boys endured harsh physical discipline and deprivation to make them strong. They learned to endure pain and survive through their wits. The older boys willingly participated in beating the younger boys to toughen them and loyalty to the city-state governed their lives`

      not only in their upbringing do they emulate the Spartan but also in their contempt for any outsiders,

      the Spartans subjugated a whole nation (Helots) of people who they used as slaves to do all the work so that they could concentrate solely on being the elite,

      the English upper class see the rest of UK as Helots.

    103. PacMan says:

      Just a gentle reminder.

      The English football team and most English football supporters are not these ‘TV commentators’. We don’t belong to the country of that team and should feel no obligation to either support them or not support them.

      They are playing some good football and I wish them well. I’ve got a neutral stance on how wins the games and if England plays a good game and deserves to win then I’ll be supporting them.

      If they go on and win the World cup then they deserve it and should be congratulated for it. As others in this forum mentioned, this would be great for us because the media will go on overdrive for years afterwards and will switch a lot of No’s to Yes voters 🙂

    104. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert j Sutherland,

      Enough with the name calling please, if I debate high school style, you seem to base your approach on the primary school playground.

      Thanks for the telegraph link, that shows Scots vote did impact three post war elections. As c.8% of the population, that is a pretty high strike rate do you not think? Add in the fact the Scottish vote was aligned to uk gov neatly 50% of the time, and that Scots have held many of the key position in government in living memory, then this is pretty good representation. Yorkshire, Wales or other pockets of uk electorate do not decide the uk elections, we agree, it is a small number of swing seats that do. These swing seats do move over time, eg SNP from LAB in Scotland in recent years, but starting to fall back at last election.

      Please don’t talk Scotland’s tertiary education sector down. It teaches pupils in a non partisan manner, educates that information should be taken from a range of sources and reviewed before being regurgitated. That’s something that we should be proud of.

      The point that I return to is that many voters have governments that they did not vote for, but this is a poor arguement for succession. Should my ward succeed from Edinburgh if we don’t support the council? London become a City state? Shetland leave Scotland? A Scottish majority when the election is not based on Scotland is a pretty weak arguement to make, one that committed independence supporters will often refer to, but has little traction or credibility in those that are not opposed the the UK per se.

    105. Capella says:

      @ Thepnr – thx – a few more days of English football punditry to go then. I don’t grudge them the fun of cheering for their team. Football’s not my thing, though I would watch if Scotland were playing. But would the BBC televise it?

      I watched three episodes of The Crown on Netflix – hugely entertaining – and not so much Rule Britannia as “what fresh hell is this!”

    106. Ian McCubbin says:

      Interesting that 29% of Tory voters dont think things would be better run by UK government.
      If wd can turn those nos to yes we are home free from WM control3

    107. Gfaetheblock says:

      G Sutherland
      Please do not talk down Scottish tertiary education centre sector, it taught me to be inquisitive to look for information from a range of sources and to take nothing on face value.

      Thanks for the link to the Telegraph it shows that Scotland did influence three elections post war, not a bad return for only 8% of the population. Scotts have also held many of the key positions in government during the postwar years.

      My original point was that nearly half the time in the post war years the Scottish majority has reflected the UK majority this is not a bad return for any subset of the UK population. The argument that Scotland does not get them government it votes for may play well to independent diehards, but for those that do not have a negative view of the UK then the argument doesn’t really work

    108. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 3 July, 2018 at 7:38 pm:

      “Really not sure how I am a ‘fibdem fool’, I am a member of no political party.”

      What has that got to do with anything? My grandfather died aged 90 odd and never voted anything other than Labour. Yet he was never a Labour Party Member. He was a member of a Trade Union for a while but only a member, never an official.

      He wasn’t ever even a member of a working Men’s club but my Gran had him signed up as a member of the co-op so as to get the dividends. However at 90 and always voted Labour I’d say he most certainly was a Labour supporter/voter.

      You do not need to be a member of a political party to support them and/or their political views. Many SNP voters are also not members of any political party.

    109. Capella says:

      @ Welsh Sion – thx too for score updates. Since I don’t have a TV I’m not subjected to endless footballery but I do look at the BBC website and was beginning to wonder if there were any other teams playing in the World Cup besides England.

    110. Highland Wifie says:

      @Hamish 100
      Thanks for link to Patricia Gibson’s speech at WM on the implications for Scotland of leaving the EU. Excellent. She certainly doesn’t take prisoners. Textbook handling of boorish Tories trying to put her off her stride.
      “The people of Scotland are sovereign……..dismiss them at your peril”
      Fantastic stuff.. More of the same needed.

    111. Jaff says:

      Simple. Fearties. Pathetic fearties…

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 3 July, 2018 at 11:59 pm:

      ” … Thanks for the link to the Telegraph it shows that Scotland did influence three elections post war, not a bad return for only 8% of the population.”

      What absolute Britnat/unionist twaddle.

      It exposes your obvious Britnat/unionist biased mentality. You comment:-

      ” … the Scottish majority has reflected the UK majority this is not a bad return for any subset of the UK population.”

      This is the exposure of bias you probably did not even realise you were showing.

      In the first place you use the initial letters of the name, “United Kingdom”, a common tactic of the Westminster Establishment who tend to use initials to make the listener/reader subconsciously divorce the reality from the initials.

      The United Kingdom is legally exactly what the name describes it as, a kingdom composed of two equally sovereign former independent kingdoms united by a Treaty of Union signed up to by both former independent kingdoms. It is not now, and never has been a legally agreed unified country of four countries.

      This Scotland, the kingdom of, is not an 8%, or even 8.4% faction of country. Scotland is a fully equally sovereign partner with only the, three country, Kingdom of England.

      Not a factional part of a country called the UK, not a regional part of greater England, not an 8% bit of anything but an equally sovereign partner kingdom and the only partner kingdom of the Kingdom of England.

      It is a bipartite partnership – rather like a marriage between two people who may or may not be of the same size, weight, colour or sex but are, by law, equal partners in the marriage.

      Even if one adopts the role of housewife/husband while the other becomes the breadwinner. Even if they are the same sex and any children are thus by a donner – the law says they are equal partners.

      By the way, if one partner decides the marriage is over, and divorces the other, then both partners return to the Status Quo Ante as single persons. Not as the Unionists in the United Kingdom would have it. With the Kingdom of Scotland leaving a still united kingdom and returning to independence while the Kingdom of England continues as the still United Kingdom united to no other kingdom9s).

      The stark fact is there are only two signatory kingdoms signatures on the Treaty of Union 1706/7.

    113. Hamish100 says:

      rock

      supports the brit nats including liebour

      NO CHANGE

    114. K1 says:

      ‘subset of the UK population’

      And that’s why the SNP have been in power for over 11 years…and we’ve never had such a big majority of support for independence. Seems like a lot more people feel positive about the SG to the point that they keep voting them in over and over again…including no voters.

      The argument that Scotland doesn’t get the government it votes for is so successful in Scotland, because it’s the truth. It plays well in Scotland, the support for the SG confirms this?

      Provide the vehicle for changing the democratic deficit…eventually enough people will board that bus.

      We don’t vote Tory in Scotland, Labour have held sway, as you well know, for decades…the Tory gains GE17 were gained by a dark money, dirty ‘no ref’ campaign, not on any kind of ‘merit’ or profound ‘social attitudes’ changes.

      ‘…do not have a negative view of the UK…’

      The issue is not about the view of the UK is it? It’s about the view of UK gov’s? We don’t get the government ‘we vote for in Scotland’ our wee 8% by and large voted Labour for decades and once or thrice we got a Labour gov because…here’s the clue to how it actually works in reality, England voted Labour those years… We, in all the other elections still voted Labour…guess what England voted?

      Labour will never return to power in Scotland, unless when we are independent and a new ‘Scottish’ Labour Party forms. So now we don’t vote Labour, we don’t vote Tory. The SNP aren’t going away. We are dealing with the democratic deficit…in the best ways that we can until enough Scots see exactly what the reality is.

      Btw we are Scots, not Scotts, even trying to correct a typo of ‘Scotts’ involved correcting to delete the apostrophe…why are you working so hard to undermine the facts on here? That’s rhetorical btw.

    115. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Gfaetheblock @ 23:59,

      Odd that you prefer to hide behind a demotic nom-de-plume that doesn’t honestly reflect your claimed background. So who is “talking down”?

      You still don’t get it. The occasional elision between Scotland and rUK* to which you keep reverting is purely accidental.

      *(I originally mis-typed yUK, which seems more appropriate somehow.)

      I should also add what I previously omitted, and applies to both your point and mine, namely that the historical post-war situation doesn’t even apply any longer. Now that Scotland has continued to vote a substantial majority of anti-UK SNP MPs, there’s a democratic disconnect so wide that even Mr. Magoo could see it.

      (Given that he was fair-minded, that is.)

    116. William Wallace says:

      Just saw this on twitter.

      BREAKING: @theSNP will lead the first ever debate in @houseofcommons on the #ClaimOfRight for Scotland – asking the UK Parliament to endorse the historic concept of the sovereignty of the people, and the right of people in Scotland to decide their own future.

      screenshots.firefox.com/cUVh9ko9OvyCfqig/twitter.com

      Interesting development.

    117. Robert Peffers says:

      @Highland Wifie says: 4 July, 2018 at 12:06 am:

      ” … She certainly doesn’t take prisoners. Textbook handling of boorish Tories trying to put her off her stride.
      “The people of Scotland are sovereign……..dismiss them at your peril”

      To which you add, ” … Fantastic stuff.. More of the same needed.”

      But that is a common misconception by many of the sovereign people of Scotland Allow me to correct that misconception, Highland Wifie but please do not get upset about it.

      I watch quite a lot of the live doings at the EU parliament, Westminster Parliament and Holyrood too. This is often hard to do as they all run concurrent with each other but most debates and committee stuff is recorded.

      I’m very impressed with the number of really top notch SNP ladies that now represent Scottish constituencies and I recall when such as Wings commenters were bemoaning that it was the female voters who were most reluctant to take the path to Scottish Independence. I recall commenting that this was perhaps a very good sign as it indicated the ladies were taking their time and thinking things through. I got quite a kicking for stating that opinion.

      Yet here we are today with a lady FM and some eloquent and powerful lady MSPs, MEPs and MPs all giving their very best in these parliaments. Thing is that they do so, as do the males on a day to day basis but the Westminster Establishment’s propagandists just do not report it.

      So when you claimed, “Fantastic stuff.. More of the same needed.”

      Nah! What that should read is:- “Fantastic stuff.. More of the same is needed to be reported by the yoonatic broadcasters and SMSM dead tree press.”

      The point being the good ladies & gentlemen of the SNP in our own, the English and the European Parliament could hardly do more than they do already – most of us just don’t get to know just how hard working and brilliant they have been and are.

      Mind you some of those ladies would be a great asset in any legislature in the World and they outshine most of the dross we get told about by the hostile propagandists of the SMSM, MSM and State controlled broadcasters.

      Have you not noticed that Mhairi Black, Joann Cherry and Dr Whitford, to name but a few, hardly ever get mentioned now but they, and the others, frequently speak in the Commons but do not get reported.

      When the statistics are shown the SNP are the most consistent attenders at debates and committees and also they do not just sit there listening – the actively take part in the debates.

    118. William Wallace says:

      Not sure if these firefox screenshot things work but, here is a different version.

      https://screenshots.firefox.com/mifjCMpUK9Wc9fVu/twitter.com

    119. geeo says:

      The mighty fall harder than the meek.

      The meek are happy to just get by, the mighty are greedy and ALWAYS at some point, through avarice or arrogance, over reach themselves, then they crash, and hard.

      The planned WM challenge to the Holyrood approved EU Continuity Bill is their over-reach.

      The crashing fall, is the Holyrood motion put forward to MSP’s to dissolve the Union on grounds of illegal subjugation of Scots Law on devolved competences, should the WM appointed SC make a politicqal judgement rather than a legitimate legal judgement, which can only fall in Scotland’s favour.

    120. Socrates MacSporran says:

      OFF-TOPIC

      I admit, I couldn’t stand it for long, but, what a joy to quickly peruse the btl comments on The Scotsman’s website this morning.

      There were already over 550 btl comments on the story of the SNP forcing last night’s Commons votes while England were playing Colombia – most along the lines of: “How very dare they discomfort our Imperial Masters.”

      I fear for the sanity of these “Proud Scots Buts,” “Tartan Tories” and Unionists come Independence Day. I should maybe buy share in Pickfords, as I can see many of them moving to England when that day comes.

      Ay Right!

    121. Ken500 says:

      What did the unionists at Westminster elected by people in Scotland do? They ruined the Scottish economy. They lied and cheated every person elected by them. Thatcher ruined the Scottish economy. Illegally and secretly took all the resources. Falsified accounts.Told deliberate lies knowing. Kept it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Left Scotland in poverty. Shut down all the manufacturing facilities. Starved people to death. Lied and told people Scotland was subsidised. Introduced the Barnett Formula to deliberately take and misuse Scottish resources. Illegally and secretly. Kept secretly under the Official Secrets Act.

      One very evil person. Made her and her cronies a multimillionaire on public money. Graft and corruption on public money. Including graft and corruption involving her son getting contracts involving public money. They should have been put in jail. Sexual abuse of children by Party members covered up by the present Tory Gov. Sexual abuse at the BBC covered up for years. One of her main supporters Saville. When told of abuse by the Police. Thatcher said, ‘Boys will be boys’. It was covered up. The Police were threatened not to expose it. Corruption at the heart of Gov.

      Started a civil war with the miners and other sectors of workers. The violence and civil disorder was a feature of the Government. Unemployment was rife 20% in NI (troubles caused by unionists) 15% in Scotland. Only part off the UK it was under 10% was in London S/E. Privatised untilities. Deregulated world banking. Lead on the the banking crash. Interest rates were at 15%. Inflation was 25%

      The Tories centrist economic policies depopulated Scotland. People had to leave Scotland to migrate to get a job and prospects. The Falklands war killing over 1,000 people. Argentina has a political claim of rights. Recognised by UN and International authorities. Suggested talks to no avail. Thatcher established tax havens. Illegally gave the Press to right wing dominance, Murdoch. So that right wing non Dom tax evaders illegally owned the Press controlled by Westminster unionists. Corruption at the heart of government. That’s what some voters in Scotland managed to elect.

      The Oil & Gas sector, fishing industry and farming in Scotland totally mismanaged by Westminster unionists. People gave died because of it. Costing Scotland £Billions and thousands of jobs. Two bit Tories, useless Labour and lying LibDems. All total and corrupt liars. Lining their pockets on other people’s misery. Totally corrupt. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Political manipulation of mass proportion. Illegally targets voters. Gerrymandering and corrupt. Breaking Purdah. Illegal and corrupt government. The wealthy illegally buying elections. Electoral fraud in a mass scale. Breaking the Law on mass proportions without censor. The Laws not enforced.

    122. Highland Wifie says:

      @Robert Peffers 1.49am
      I cannot argue with you Robert. Our SNP representatives are head and shoulders above the average politician in both WM and Holyrood and I couldn’t ask any of them to work harder than they do. We are very lucky to have them and if the very able women you cite are any indication then Scotland has a bright future when we regain our independence.

      Such a contrast to the likes of Nadine Dorries who took to Twitter to complain that the pesky Scots were taking up time doing the day job and preventing them from watching the England match. Not in the same league (pardon the pun).

      As for the MSM it’s a lost cause I’m afraid. If the average Scot watched was shown half of what really goes on in either government we’d be at 75% for independence (imho).

    123. Robert Louis says:

      Who played the best game last night?? The SNP of course. Well done lads and lasses, you did us and the whole world proud.

      A vote at 7pm??? Hahahahahaha GIRFUY etc…etc…

      Just a wee reminder for all the frothing England worshipping british nationalists, here’s the reality, MP’s at Westminster are paid way, way more (77,379 a year, plus unlimited expenses and free flights for them and their family, plus a free house)) than the average worker to do their job. THEY ARE NOT PAID TO WATCH F****** FOOTBALL.

      I swear, the way the media is behaving just after last nights match, just imagine what they will be like if England win the world cup. NOTHING could help Scottish independence more than that.

    124. Dr Jim says:

      Asda Tesco Morrisons Sainsburys the UK Guv the Media all call Aldi and Lidl *The discounters* they never call them legitimate supermarkets

      Labour Tory Lib Dem the UK Guv the media all call the SNP *The Separatists* never a legitimate political party

      The actual discounters are the mainstream supermarkets with their 2for1 or bogof deals
      The mainstream political parties are the actual separatists because of their desire to be separate from the rest of the world

      All of these entities constantly whine about control except Aldi and Lidl and the SNP who talk about co-operation

      Have you noticed the teams left in the world cup are the teams with the least entertaining talent and the one of these who wins it can only inspire relief and not pride if they manage to win

    125. admiral says:

      Robert Louis says:
      4 July, 2018 at 7:31 am
      Who played the best game last night?? The SNP of course. Well done lads and lasses, you did us and the whole world proud.
      A vote at 7pm??? Hahahahahaha GIRFUY etc…etc…
      Just a wee reminder for all the frothing England worshipping british nationalists, here’s the reality, MP’s at Westminster are paid way, way more (77,379 a year, plus unlimited expenses and free flights for them and their family, plus a free house)) than the average worker to do their job. THEY ARE NOT PAID TO WATCH F****** FOOTBALL.

      RL – I was going to post something along the same lines.

      Our archaic “parliament” has resisted all attempts at reform including working hours, for decades. How dare they complain about the SNP making them get on with the day job, and thus preventing them bunking off from their responsibilities to watch a football match on TV!

      Especially since they are paid huge salaries, allowances, expenses and pensions to work for us, not to sit drinking alcohol subsidised by the taxpayer watching TV. And they have the cheek to moan about and persecute the elderly, the sick, the disabled and other vulnerable people on benefits!

    126. Ken500 says:

      Labour after the ‘winter of discontent’. Three day weeks, power cuts, gov preventing people from working. Poverty. People starving and cold. Dying in their sleep. Rubbish mountains in the streets. The dead not being buried. Resulting in allowing 18 years of Thatcher abuse.

      Scotland voted Labour to keep the Toriescout. Labour kept the McCrone Report hidden for years. Lied and said Scotland was subsidised. Labour false public accounting. Illegal wars killing starving and maiming millions. Costing £trns. Mismanagement and governance of the banking sector. Leading to the banking crash.

      Total and utter mismanagement of the banking sector. Unbelievable not due diligence, Financial fraud at the heart. Gross major tax evasion losing £Billions. Laws totally illegally and secretly not being enforced by Westminster crooks and their cronies. Leaving people impoverished. Losing pension losses and rights.

      The illegal wars costing £Trns. Bombing the Middle East to bits for years. Destabilising the world economy. The lies the cheating, the disbelief. The breaking of International Law. The propaganda crisis. Labour causing the worst migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. Displacing millions of people. Of epic proportions. The untold savagery of crimes against humanity. Disgraceful in a it’s proportion. With no respite or relief. No apology. No repatriation. No reconstruction. Just misery for so many people.

      Labour ruined the Oil & Gas sector, the fishing and farming industry. Caused major tragedy and death in the Oil & Gas sector. UK health and safety Laws ignored with no Inquiry and no censor. Firms getting away with murder. Then selling up for £Millions. Deplorable,

      Labour caused Scotland to become poorer. That’s what Labour voters in Scotland got. To keep the Tories out.

      The Tories at Westminster now killing and maiming people. The lying rhetoric beyond shame. Destroying people’ lives to make their own gain. Electoral fraud of gigantic proportion goes without censor. The lies and the cheating. The Oil & Gas sector, fishing and farming sector gross miss management by Westminster. £Million taken from farmers. CAP payment from the EU totally misused by Westminster Tory ministers.

      The Oil & Gas sector ruined by bad fiscal policies. The Tories (ConDems) LibDem enablers. Too high taxes when the price had fallen. Leading to a loss of production. Losing Scotland £Billions and thousand of jobs. More has to be imported. Putting up the balance of payment defict and the deficit. A false economy.

      The fishing industry mismanaged by Westminster unionists for years. Smaller nets should have been introduced years ago. Like Norway. conservation. Instead of throwing back dead fish for years. Leading to conservation measures. Better terms and conditions introduced into the industry.

      The Westminster unionist for years have set out to ruin the Scottish economy. That’s what people in Scotland got when they voted for unionists Parties. Lies, deceit and misery. A spectacular deception. Still on going. Unless the SNP stop them. They have already saved Scotland £Billions and provided good governance. In spite of gross provocation by unionists, others and their Parties. The SNP know they have major support in Scotland and elsewhere. They will do their best to counter Westminster unionist total corruption. An IndyRef is coming soon.

      The Brexit unbelievable corruption. Totally unaffordable corruption of monumental shameful manipulation, Electoral fraud. Illegal wars, financial fraud, tax evasion. They are the policies of the Westminster Brexit catastrophe. Caused by some unionists voted for in Scotland. Their ignorance, arrogance and incompetence there in the public eye for all to view.

      Brexit is totally unaffordable. It will crash the economy and the unionists know it. In deluded territory. They should be ashamed of their manipulation of the electoral process. For their personal gain. The Pollsters are not even regulated properly but getting gongs for hedge fund’s illegal manipulation. Illegal money changing hands. Imagine, universities funded by Scottish taxpayers, employing them to manipulate cheat and lie. Bringing their reputation into disrepute. Not following their code of conduct for impartional, non bias and consensus.

    127. Ken500 says:

      Two job unionists regulate Westminster hours. To accomadate their other lucrative employment. Their other jobs, contracts and contacts. The reason they are in Westminster. Or join a political Party. The few that do. People who can do. People who can’t join a unionist Party or a pressure group. To lobby to line their pockets on abuse of public money. The abstainers gain game, Not fit for public office. Promote above their station and their capabilities.

    128. Ken500 says:

      Nadine Dorries the six week exempted for Jungle episodes and £75,000 extra remuneration subsidy exploiter. An expenses fraudster? Hypocrite. Ex nurse who wants to sanction, starve people and deprive the NHS of funds. Resulting in Food banks and misery for people.

    129. Dr Jim says:

      Happy Independence day to all you Americans out there enjoy the celebrations of the day you kicked the Brits out of your country

    130. Abulhaq says:

      From ‘British’ strawberries and ‘British’ whisky to ‘British’ fishing Scotland is being marginalized, Britished out of existence, cleansed of a unique identity. Not so England. There will always be an England thanks to Westminster and its ancilliary agencies aided by the slobbering North Brit satrapy, a ‘meaningful’ Scotland, under the Union flag, is quite another matter.
      Militancy from our leaders on this cultural ‘rebranding’ and ethnic effacement is essential.
      The post Brexit rëgime is set to be ultra anglo-nationalistic in tone. This has the character of a war of survival.

    131. Ghillie says:

      Hamish 100 @ 9.31 pm

      Thank you for the link to Patricia Gibson SNP MP’s speech on the Implications for Scotland of Leaving the EU.

      Patricia did extremely well in the face of the usual attempts at scorn and derision from some Tory chaps and a solitary LibDem. Worth a listen folks =)

      She skillfully landed a fair few blows, making full statements that her droopy opponents did want to hear, or worse, end up recorded for history. (Joanna Cherry helped 🙂 ! )

      What a formidable team we have 🙂

    132. Fred says:

      Gary Robertson turned the screw on the Tory MP for Banff & Buchan this morning over Gove’s two-faced fishery policy. He also extracted a confession from David Duguid that he accepted some of this “dark-money” but hadn’t a clue where it came from as he’s too busy!

    133. stu mac says:

      AVOID IF YOU’RE BORED BY FOOTBALL

      @Capella says:
      4 July, 2018 at 12:01 am
      Since I don’t have a TV I’m not subjected to endless footballery but I do look at the BBC website and was beginning to wonder if there were any other teams playing in the World Cup besides England.
      =====

      Be prepared to avoid that website then. I thought when I saw the last 16 draw that England had landed it dead lucky with all the best teams left in the tournament in the other half of the draw and having to play each other. So I wasn’t surprised at England’s win last night and Sweden are beatable by them. The England team itself is nowhere near as good as some of their teams of the past but seems to be aware of this and are committed to team work and hard work to make up for this. Their manager is suitably low key too. I think a semi-final place for them is quite possible and if they have some jammy luck even a final.

      Was going to say they won’t win it but that might cause the gods to make me eat my words. It’s ultra annoying, not so much because one doesn’t want England to do well but because Scotland ought to be able to get there and compete. There are two teams in the quarter finals with populations similar to Scotland’s (and Scotland once produced a stream of international class players) so why do we do so badly these days? I know the SFA have a lot to do with it with their natural mismanagement of football here but I wonder if it has anything to do with the Scottish cringe?

    134. Sinky says:

      Watch SNP motion on Scotland’s Claim of Right at Westminster this afternoon sometime after 2.30 pm I think.

      Here’s how Labour matches up to the SNP on publicly-run public services.

      https://www.snp.org/fact_check_the_labour_record_on_publicly_run_public_services

      In Hootsman this morning Miles Briggs attacking SNP on drug policy. Mainly reserved and the UK Gov refused to allow safe drug consumption rooms in Glasgow.

      Also in Scotsman some guy John Elliott allowed plug his book on “separatists in Catalonia and Scotland” claiming Referendums are no way to decide these things.

      In Edinburgh Evening News Tories courting Tory Councillor who has quit party over its policies on disabilities and social justice.

      Also Prof Scott has letter praising another Labour Councillor’s attacks on the SNP. This is how you manipulate the press.

    135. orri says:

      I wonder if, perhaps, the resurgence of Siol nan Gobbels is designed to raise the issue of the ongoing suppression of Scottish branding.

      Certainly the phrase “folkish” tradition is neo-nazi to it’s core. Assimilation is next on the list, for English “settlers”.

    136. mike cassidy says:

      Dr Jim 8.35

      If only Independence day was that straightforward.

      http://archive.is/M3uKi

      Even Flora McDonald supported the King’s side.

      And had to return to Scotland for her stance.

      http://archive.is/8lVP9

    137. Sinky says:

      Correction should read: In Edinburgh Evening News Labour courting Tory Councillor who has quit party over its policies on disabilities and social justice.

    138. Robert Peffers says:

      @Sinky says: 3 July, 2018 at 10:54 pm:

      ” … As BBC always have three opposition comments for every Scot Gov issue we should pro actively challenge on why they rarely if ever have a quote from third largest party at Westminster when a UK Gov issue.”

      Ah! Nearly hit the nail on the head but missed it by a hair’s breadth with that last bit, “< … when a UK Gov issue … "

      That’s the real problem because the so called UK Gov issues are really NOT, “UK issues”, they are, “England only”, issues and the so called, “United Kingdom Parliament”, isn’t in practice a United Kingdom government it is the de facto Parliament of England but calls itself a United Kingdom Government.

      Westminster uses EVEL in order to prevent all other countries from interfering in what Westminster itself claims are, “country of England only”, matters but there isn’t an elected Parliament of the country of England for that function is being done by persons elected as United Kingdom Parliament members and the United Kingdom Parliament uses only English law as there is no such thing as a United Kingdom Rule of Law.

      Westminster directly uses United Kingdom funds to run the country of England and Westminster uses the United Kingdom Ministries to run England directly there is no elected Parliament of England and the United Kingdom is legally a union of only two kingdoms. It is not a union of four countries and it certainly is not legally the country of England that are the masters over the three other countries that are parts of the two kingdom United Kingdom.

      It is as simple as that The United Kingdom Government is being run as if it were the parliament of the country of England Parliament that is the master race over the three other countries of what is legally a two partner United Kingdom but has relegated Scotland to the same level as the two other countries that the Kingdom of England had annexed long before the Treaty of Union.

      The truth is that the last real Kingdom of England Parliament that was elected as such sat on the last day of April in 1707.

    139. Welsh Sion says:

      Off Topic

      Oh, Jeremy Corbyn! (We always knew you were a Brit Nat. …)

      Via Twitter.

      ____

      Jeremy Corbyn
      @jeremycorbyn

      After the brilliant #BevanFestival in Tredegar I travelled to Barry where there was another packed venue of people who have had enough of the Tories failing our NHS.

      On its 70th birthday, we must come together to campaign to defend healthcare as a human right. #OurNHS #NHS70
      7:02 PM – Jul 1, 2018

    140. Breeks says:

      Oh Lordy. 2 more people “poisoned” with an unknown substance in Wiltshire, and the UK Press is already wetting it’s pants about it.

      Obviously, it must be weapons grade nerve toxin hand made by Putin himself, and England should immediately boycott the World Cup in protest. I said IMMEDIATELY.

      Over to the England camp…

    141. Robert Peffers says:

      You have to wonder at the Westminster mindset that has just announced their plans for the United Kingdom, (not Britain), to exit the European Union and to take back control of United Kingdom territorial waters.

      Trouble with that is that The Republic of Ireland, Bailiwick of Jersey, The Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man are not governed by the United Kingdom Parliament of the United Kingdom and thus all these will have their territorial waters affected by the Westminster foolish plans.

      Not only that but as they are exiting the European Union there will be an immediate border line drawn right through the French/English Channel in which lie the two non-United Kingdom Government Channel Island Bailiwicks.

      The North Sea also will have disputed borders across the Continental Shelves and, of course when the so called United Kingdom takes back its control of United Kingdom waters they will automatically find themselves excluded from the territorial waters of the European Union Member States. That includes the territorial waters of the Republic of Ireland, half the French/English Channel, and unless the Crown Dependencies all agree to throw in their lot with he Westminster Parliament, their territorial waters will be in dispute too.

      Why would the EU member states and the other European countries allow the United Kingdom to take back their territorial waters without the non-UK countries returning the compliment and banning the UK from access to their territorial waters?

      This Tory government are perhaps the most lunatic government that has ever been laughably in control of the United Kingdom I’ve been calling them The Yoonatics for some time now. Can they really think that the EU is just going to accept being slung out of the United Kingdom waters and will allow United Kingdom sea and air access to EU territory?

    142. McBoxheid says:

      It is becoming clear to some Lib Dem and Labour voters in Scotland that things are getting better, but the Tories still seem to be deliberately sticking to the ESSEENPEE bad narrative. The British Nationalist party faithful are being told, every time they listen to/read a BBC/MSM politics, (erm no more like propaganda), program/article that whilst things are getting better they are still not at a place where they can say, ok, we are at a good place now.

      Why?

      Particularly the Tories, but all of the British State owned parties/institutions, are guilty of deliberately obscuring where the competencies of ScotGov and Westminster lie. IE using retained levers of power to argue that the Scottish Government is not doing its day job.
      The Britnats need their List MSPs to keep dripping away like a broken tap knowing full well that the MSM will report their question, but not the slap down they get by the First Minister . (Knowing that such poor politicians will never amount to anything other that a list candidate, so they never get to be challenged more capable MSP canidates from other parties)

      Surveys like these might just begin to get people thinking about the whys and wherefores of their not quite logical answers, but there still needs to a conserted effort to bring the competencies into the questions being asked. IE

      Q.101: Knowing that the ScotGov only have limited powers (explain powers?) to change the Scottish NHS/Education/Housing/Police budgets because they are still linked to Westminster levels of funding and are therefore limited in the cash available from Westminster issued block grants, do you think that our Scottish; NHS/Education/Housing/Police are improving/staying the same/getting worse/something else/don’t know?

    143. stu mac says:

      @Sinky says:
      4 July, 2018 at 9:58 am
      ========================

      What makes you think the press needs manipulating?

    144. Welsh Sion says:

      Rpobert Peffers @ 10:29am

      This Tory government are perhaps the most lunatic government that has ever been laughably in control of the United Kingdom I’ve been calling them The Yoonatics for some time now.
      _______

      Here’s a new word I learnt last night, Robert. (Maybe it’s not new to you, though …)

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakistocracy

      I also say we live in a shamocracy.

    145. Tinto Chiel says:

      @stu mac 9.42:”I know the SFA have a lot to do with it with their natural mismanagement of football here but I wonder if it has anything to do with the Scottish cringe?”

      When the SFA selects a manager who actually campaigned for a No vote in 2014, along with many other Scottish “stars”, I think you have one of the main factors in under-achievement. My dark horses (kiss of death) are Uruguay, population 3.4 million and scoring highest in South America in factors such as democracy, freedom of the press, lack of corruption, etc. Their players are what we used to produce: fast, tough and skilful.

      Since the teachers quite rightly withdrew their free labour and stopped developing the kids’ football skills, the SFA have been found out as a totally clueless organisation whose time-servers have presided over a lamentable decline in the game at all levels.

      Even so, we have the highest per capita attendance at our football in Europe, but the worst TV deal. That really shows how feeble the football authorities here are.

    146. jfngw says:

      @Gfaetheblock

      The elections that they influenced

      1964 – lasted 17 months
      1974 lasted 8 months
      2010 – I ignore this as it didn’t change the governing party which was effectively Tory. But it did expose the LibDems as charlatans so it had some use.

      So that is 2 years out of 73, or around 3% of the time.

      Imagine if it was Holyrood, it would be 100% of the time. That’s what I call democracy, a country getting the government it voted for, every time.

    147. Welsh Sion says:

      Sinky @ 9.58 am.

      Scotland, know your enemies update.

      This would be one of your ‘guys’:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elliott_(historian)

    148. Abulhaq says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Territorial waters and extensive continental shelf marine exploitation ‘rights’ is just another reason why Scotland cannot be allowed sovereignty. Scotland was land grabbed in 1707, the English got a nice long term bargain. To the anglosaxon mind property matters, holding on to it matters even more.
      We have a tough job on our hands. We will need a new style of leadership, with appropriate skills if the task set before us is to be concluded successfully. This is not ‘conventional’ politics. England is a rapacious, voracious beast and fast shedding its ‘inhibitions’. The auld enemie is back.

    149. Capella says:

      @ Tinto Chiel @ Stu Mac – speaking as a complete amateur, I would add the word “corruption” to the mix. Where there are blazerati there are backhanders.

      Complete root and branch clean up might help. That would be down to Jeanne Freeman then, as Minister for Health and Sport?

    150. Ken500 says:

      Vote Leave broke electoral Laws. An offence under UK Law. When will they be charged, convicted and sent to prison. Gerrymandering is a punishable offence. Why do they just get away with it? Without censor.

      BBC promoting supposed England supporters in other parts of the UK. Why?

    151. Dorothy Devine says:

      This might be a silly question ,but did England invent football?

      And one more for good luck , is the English national anthem God save the Queen? – if this is so Scotland really should become a republic and have a lusty version of a national anthem reflecting her history and ambitions for itself.

    152. Cactus says:

      Scotland versus the Tories, sounds like a date-…

      Think aye might put on a -line.

      Wednesday.

      2018.

    153. Legerwood says:

      Breeks @ 10.26 am

      They were at a hog roast apparently. Make of that what you will.

    154. Cactus says:

      Good to see you earlier geeo 🙂

      And hey Heedtracker, wishin’ ye well Winger…

      re last nights soccer, never seen so much all round professional diving, does the referee never show ‘that’ a red card for tom-foolery, is it snowflake season?

      Yes independence equals Scotland versus the Tories.

    155. Abulhaq says:

      @Dorothy Devine
      The English probably invented the concept of ‘sport’. Before ‘sport’ there were games people played for their own distraction and amusement, ‘sport’ however has existential supposedly character building capacities. It has rules, how the anglosaxon loves rules, as long as they are their rules. English ‘public’ schools, what a misnomer, attached great importance to performance on the playing field, more so than intellectual/academic prowess. The intellectual in English society, in contrast to France, Germany or Russia, has had to struggle for attention not so the ‘sportsman’. The English privateers, buccaneers and East India company men were probably engaging in a form of ‘sport’, as are the gung ho advocates of quitting the EU. It’s all a lark, until it gets serious.
      The fact that this character building pursuit is now conspicuously riddled with corruption, under that veil of sportsmanship, is rather ironic.

    156. Cactus says:

      Hey geeo good to see you posting earlier.

      Yes independence equals Scotland versus the Tories.

      Cheers.

    157. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Abulhaq, think of the Greeks.

      But interestingly enough, ‘School’ originally meant ‘leisure’ in greek.

    158. Abulhaq says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist
      Might have mentioned the Spartans. They had a preoccupation with fitness etc over the more intellectual interests of the Athenians. I understand the English élite school system owes much to the spirit of Sparta. Explains so much. What’s that sir? it’s a woman boy, a woman, you’ll have no use for such a creature.

    159. gus1940 says:

      How many people work at Porton Down?

      What do they do when they are not investigating alleged Novichok attacks by Russia?



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