Cracking the code
First of all, congratulations to the Herald for only being eight days behind a retired website on this story. Unusually fast work, lads.
Now let’s deal with the spin.
Gillian Martin is an Aberdeenshire MSP who’s had her own run-ins with the SNP’s Tranish Inquisition and has absolutely no excuse for not knowing what the Aberdeen Independence Movement is, so this is purest idiot-feed:
And of course the party’s eternally gullible are lapping it up.
But there’s zero doubt about what’s going on here, because everyone involved has already told us exactly what they’re planning, in their own words.
Here’s the text of the motion, signed by a whole raft of the party’s worst slime, explicitly citing the AIM document as the model they want to follow:
Something reinforced by Stewart Hosie at the AIM’s recent mini-summit.
Indeed, the pledge was apparently co-authored by SNP President Mike Russell.
The same article contained the full text of the pledge, including this passage:
And what is the definition of transphobia? We know what it is according to the SNP, because they published it five months ago:
Let’s just pull a bit of it out:
So there you have it. It really couldn’t be much clearer. If you call a transwoman a biological man (which every single transwoman, by definition, is), then you are guilty of transphobia by the SNP’s definition, and if you’re guilty of transphobia you’re expelled from the Yes movement.
Which is exactly what the Herald’s uncharacteristically-accurate headline says, and exactly what Wings told you more than a week earlier.
We’d be wholly astonished if this motion was defeated at the party’s stage-managed “conference” in October, not least because anyone opposing it would be pretty much automatically guilty of “transphobia” and bundled from the stage by a shrieking mob of balaclava-clad, Stonewall-approved Rainbow Stormtroopers (Black Pampers Division).
(30 days after the end of Holy Pride Month, and almost at the end of a month which is supposed to be highlighting people with disabilities, the SNP’s Twitter avatar is still the LGBTIAQWERTY+ one. The party’s Twitter account didn’t make a single tweet about disability in the whole of July so far as we can tell.)
But since there isn’t actually going to be an independence campaign anyway (the “conference” isn’t even being allowed to discuss the Great Leader’s new referendum policy, let alone be consulted on it in advance), we don’t suppose it really matters.
LGBTIAQWERTY+ – cant wait til they get to ‘C’. i wonder what it will abbreviate?
They can take their “Code of Conduct” and shove it. How dare they try to control how people in what they can and cannot believe in.
THIS is the prime example of the PROGRESSIVE CIVIC inclusiveness that certain posters are so intent on forcing people to adhere to, when or will the madness stop
If you do NOT agree with certain PROGRESSIVE ideologies or even dare to have a contrary view you will be labelled as undesirable and excluded from participation
PROGRESSIVENESS is the banner of self opinionated despots who cannot abide others having differing views from them on any subject , as far as they’re concerned their wisdom is gospel and cannot be challenged , to surrender to or placate these self opinionated despots only leads to more and more demands to adhere to more and more outrageous and stupefying ideas
We have examples of that stupefying fake progressive ideology on here every day but fortunately it is exposed for the deliberate attempt to undermine a cause that it is
“Black Pampers Division”…All the lols.
Archived link to the Herald article here,
link to archive.ph
No Indy campaign for me , if one actually happens .
Another example of the crap that persuaded me to resign from the SNP
I will simply self ID as not a SNP voter.
That thing wae the green jacket oan shouting witch, witch, witch. LMAO
Fecking demented thon.
That guy shouting witch must be in the Proud Tourettes division of loonballs.
Whars yer Geordie Orwell, noo? Ah, forget it!
The SNP have always mistaken a Yes vote as an SNP vote & think they own the YES movement.
They’ve constantly stuck their nebb in on how the yes movement should behave like they own the show. They’ve achieved feck all but an echo chamber of feckwits & misfits as predicted yrs ago that these conferences would end up becoming.
Is that the best they can come up with? A code of conduct? For who exactly cause it clearly doesn’t apply to themselves.
Would this be a not so covert way for that poisonous lot to finally get their wish & be rid of Cherry? They’re a poisonous lot.
Whom the gods would destroy they first make mad …
So, instead of working on indyref, the SNP is literally tying itself and others in knots about frankly idiotic ‘respect’ pledges. Seriously, what are they on?? I want independence, and it is nothing to do with the SNP how folk in the indy movement think.
This really reeks of student politics. The SNP have quite literally become the judean people’s front.
Meanwhile, Scotland is about to become shafted yet again by some unelected nobody in England called Rishi Sunak or Liz Truss, who will shortly proclaim themselves ‘ruler’, and be fetted by the ‘media’. It is time for the Scottish government to literally stop taking ANY rules from London, and to start running Scotland from Scotland, for Scots.
England is a joke country now, a failed state in every measurable way. Nothing works. If England wants an unelected fascist dictatorship (and all the signs are, that they are keen on it), then let them. Scotland is having none of it.
“..a transwoman a biological man (which every single transwoman, by definition, is)..”
The demand here is that you use the meaning-free neologism “assigned male at birth.”
There may not be a real independence campaign in 2023, but there will definitely be rehearsals as a way to consolidate control over the movement. As for Bellend Caledonia having input, twats like Greer were at least elected. I recall when Small was writing ambivalent stuff on GC feminism and didn’t even know which way the wind was blowing in “TRA Wars”. Well he certainly knows now. The naked clientelism around the SNP elite reminds me of the Tories procuring PPE.
Robert.
It’ll be Truss. Sunaks the wrong colour for good old blighty to accept the highest office. Never in a gazillion years. Hell would freeze over before he’d get his mitts on top secrets.
Then the media can discuss & dissect much more important topics as to who has the nicest shoes while Rome burns.
link to simple.m.wikipedia.org.
Aim et al. Are not grassroots indy they are yet another SNP shill org. A front… Like many others that have been seeded since 2014 to control and abuse REAL grassroots. Gilluan Martin is a party animal now. (ever since she lost her cabinet seat due to previous tweets). Believe In Scotland (another SNP front org) have the same bs code. There’s beenan organised effort to override grassroots orgs and other any non compliant ones since post 2016. You should do an expose on who all the SNP front groups are. Don’t trust anyone with the multicoloured YES flags…. They’re the SNPs bitches.
… Plus.
….
If misogyny is on their crime list…. That knocks put most of their campaigners, cultists and the entire toddler targeting squad…..
Meanwhile, while the children in the SNP squabble in the sandpit and try to impose Stalinist conditions on everyone else for who can join them, the wider independence movement is getting on with the job of figuring out how independence can be won (including if you have to bypass the party you elected to do it as they’ve sold you out) in a 3 day conference no SNP turned up to, and Alex Salmond is out doing town hall meetings all round the country getting Alba’s wee blue book out.
Middle class w****rs. Fine to let the poor starve of hunger or cold but don’t dare f*****g swear, be rude to opponents or call a c**k in a frock a bloke. FFS.
Indy is fucked isn’t it.
How can it have involved RIC Scotland? RIC Scotland has been wound up. It is an ex organisation, shuffled off this mortal coil, joined the choir invisible, it’s fucking snuffed it.
The West has serious existential problems.
This is one take on the scale of it.
link to unherd.com
«Modernity, in the final accounting, took aim at all authority, all tradition, everything rooted and everything past….the result of modernity’s revolutions would be the rise of a “new totalitarianism”. This time around it would not involve jackboots and uniforms. Instead, it would be a technocracy built on scientism and implemented by managerial elites, designed to ensure that order could continue after modernity had ripped up all former sources of authority and truth»
Big Tech is watching you, keeping you safe.
link to off-guardian.org
The politicians are the pimps for the New Order.
What is to be done when democracy itself is compromised?
We should mint a new RIC the Reality Independence Campaign. It should be non party political so SNP refugees can join. Lots were in RIC rather than Yes Scotland last time.
But it looks suspiciously like Alba are moving to do it on their own. Remember the architect of the SNP’s control freakery was on Alex Salmond. So do not be surprised. This AIM motion is primarily aimed at trying to neuter Alba. It is not aimed at us. It is Alba they are worried about.
What should happen is Alba and ISP and anyone else GC who wants to join should recreate a RIC like entity but I’m not holding my breath. I expect to be campaign homeless this time round.
The code is ‘cracked’ and so is the SNP.
“There is a crack in everything, That’s how the light gets in.”
Leonard Cohen
The crack in this case is this bonkers SNP policy it’s helping to shine a light on how crazy the SNP have become.
How can it have involved RIC Scotland
Alarmingly, after it folded, the name and logo was taken over by one of AIM’s wee nasties. So it has since “re-emerged” but is now nothing but an offshoot of AIM. Similar to how they took over Women for Indy and a few other orgs. So it’s likely there will be a pretend “RIC” that many will assume is the real thing, while in fact it’s anything but: it’s more of the same SNP-AIM tactics to neuter and stifle the real grassroots. It will, of course, be wholly signed up to any code of conduct, so people will believe all these organisations are, when in fact it’s a tiny handful of the worst, most abusive people behind it.
@Wulls — a lot more about Scotland than indy is fucked. That’s just political organisation. The entire cultural basis, together with the foundational assumptions on which it rests is fucked. Indy is the least of Scotland’s problems.
The wider Yes movement will need to get ahead of all of these tactics and form its own mass movement organisations with different names, logos etc and not rely on the comfort of 2014 names and logos, many of which have been taken over, gutted, repurposed etc. The SNP itself key among those, depressingly.
I know I am being cynical but is this another way where the SNP leadership is designing the outcome of the independence referendum to fail before it has even started?
@Wulls
O/T but not really, one of the people Christopher Pike claims to defer to has an article in the Herald’s sister paper praising new defamation laws – and, in particular, a new defence of publishing lies in the public interest.
WTAF is going on?
Before the SNP decided to ban me from their ‘campaign for independence’ I had decided I didn’t want to be part of a campaign led by misogynists anyway.
My problem is I can’t listen to Nicola Sturgeon, Patrick Harvie or any of the other misogynists who will be part of the ‘official SNP campaign for independence’.
Am I a ‘transphobe’ yes I am.
They can dictate that ‘transwomen are women’ & ‘transmen are men’ until the cows come home but that is just not registering with me. I blame my Scottish education.
They are going to have to set up some special re-education centre to help ‘transphobes’ like me. They will have to convince me that ‘a man is a woman’
maybe they could start by defining ‘what is a woman’ and ‘what is a man’.
PS Does a man have a vagina?
PPS Was the official YES movement not pretty shit in 2014.
We are watching an egg timer in motion.
All the sand is dribbling out of the SNP, and filling up behind the “alliance”; the amalgam of SALVO, ALBA, SSRG, and all the other progressives.
The SNP isn’t being left behind, it has been left behind. All that lies ahead for Sturgeon is a futile tantrum in the wilderness, because the people want Independence, not more of her fucked-up scheming and feckless weirdness.
I believe she’s blown it. We are reaching the point where the trickle becomes a flood. About bloody time.
There was a brilliant quote on Twitter…
The question isn’t “Why do young children need to see a drag Queen at school?”
The real question is “Why do drag queens need an audience of young school children?”
Aye. And the supplementary question, “What the fuck does any of this sleazy garbage have to do with Scottish Independence?”
This is of course simply just another of Sturgeons inserted road blocks to independence within her scorched earth policy
What about shortism, accentism, speckyism, lefthandedism, fatism, baldism, gingerism, bad breathism, etc. What’s needed is a comprehensive list of ism’s. The job is only half (arsed) done.
“Black Pampers Division”
It’s probably bad taste to call them the Provisional TRAs isn’t it (don’t blame me, I stole it from twitter).
In the unlikely (as in snowball’s chance in hell) event of there being an indy ref in 2023, we REALLY need to have (as others have said) non SNP aligned YES groups. Equally when the so called plebiscite election comes, Alba, ISP and any other pro Yes party need to decide
1. do they stand down, trusting the SNP to deliver with no conditions?
2. stand for election since we are told votes count not just seats – though Nikla will probably say votes for the SNP and Greens are the only ones that count
3. stand down, and state that if the seats and votes criteria aren’t met or they are but nothing happens to deliver independence, they will campaign against the SNP in the Holyrood 2026 elections.
4. Ignore all of this and try to find other ways of ending the union, SALVO, decolonisation etc etc.
Other than ruing out no1, I’m not sure of the best way forward. But I am sure AIM can take a flying jump though.
OK. Yes is behind in the poles.
We face the worst economic crisis since the war, much of it Westminster made.
A million Scots are facing starve or freeze this winter
and SNP want to expel people and put voters off for agreeing with science and nature!
Good luck to these Trans people.
They must have the same rights and respect the rest of us have.
I’ll call anyone any name they like him/her but it’s not the focus of needs.
I still say and always will say people with a penis don’t use female toilets.
If they don’t want to use the mens toilets there is always the disabled one and if they have the surgery then it’s the ladies.
I know they must suffer some mental torment that clouds their judgement but could there be some moles in the camp stir these things up ensure SNP become unelectable.
SNP are doing so badly voters are moving to the totally corrupt Tories and Lamentable Labour.
Would they settle for hormones and honours after independence.
If anyone thought for a nanosecond Sturgeon and her minions were serious about fighting an independence campaign, this divisive, authoritarian lunacy is proof that the sabotaging of it from within has already begun.
As Wee Chid said, I hear nothing from this party or government about the dreadful hardship people in the most energy-rich country in Europe are suffering right now and God knows what winter awaits us all.
And yet we’re supposed to give a flying fruit bat about something as synthetic a concept as “misgendering”?
The wrecking-ball of reality is needed to bring the whole rotten SNP edifice down but it would have to come from an electorate who which was clued in to what the leadership is about and determined enough to say, “Enough is enough.” Obviously the party has been completely captured by woke globalists and its MPs and MSPs are a mute and spineless bunch, and even a change of leader won’t alter that.
When the pretence and illusion of Indy 2 crumbles and disappears next Oct, if not before, what happens to all these tossers responsible for the above nonsense?
It’s difficult to see nothing other than a massive backlash from people who voted SNP and essentially will find themselves homeless when Truss is PM and Nicka has let down and deceived the country once again.
They are literally writing their own death sentence and we only have to look at the destruction of the Labour vote in Scotland to know that you can be gone for a generation and more, if you fail to deliver on your essential core mandate,
But do they care? Do they fcuk and all in a week where 1,330 of our poorest people lost their lives in Sturgeon’s Scotland, when energy prices will triple by the winter and so many face a horrible and bleak future, these ridiculous clowns have chosen to die on a hill with misogynistic men who hate and despise women….
God help us all…
Times like this ye really feel for WGD and his pals. They’ll be losing sleep trying to figure out how to defend this pish as well as warrant sales, fraud, and heaven only knows what else.
Hard work being a wheeshter!
A code of conduct for a country wanting Independence! we all know the supreme court is going to rule against the SG so we won’t need to worry about a referendum or a code of conduct, thank god.
” not least because anyone opposing it would be pretty much automatically guilty of “transphobia” and bundled from the stage by a shrieking mob of balaclava-clad, Stonewall-approved Rainbow Stormtroopers (Black Pampers Division).2
Ha, brilliant description, and lets not forget going by the piccy’s below your above paragraph, that the balaclava-clad rainbow warriors who harassed REAL women who were demonstrating for their rights were physically excited when intimidating the REAL women, and the police in attendance did nothing.
Anyway this, you’d better swear an oath to the wokie “yes” club is all a plot to exclude the real party of Scottish independence the Alba party and other indy minded outfits that know what a woman is.
Its basically a smear campaign against Alba for supporting REAL women.
If you are a REAL woman and value what rights you have left in Scotland, you’d be mental not to vote for the Alba party at every turn.
Imelda Sturgeon loves the fascist stonewall lbgtq dog groomers, but independence….nah forget it! What a wicked woman.
You can hardly imagine a proposal better placed to suck the life out of a campaign than AIM gatekeeping comment and acting as Sturgeon’s witchfinders against their own side.
And the rest of their side having a go back at them.
Meanwhile the UK literally burns. The time is now.
Yet the Yes movement stands like Nigel Quashie before an open Norwegian goal…
You can only take folk so far on your own selfish journey of fulfillment.
Sturgeon one day, will end up like Ceaucescu standing looking at the crowd from his balcony in disbelief that they now hated him.
You can take people for granted for a long time but pay
back is ultimately inevitable
“The Herald is taking this rather innocuous motion
about respectful debate, and respecting others, and
distorting it to the extreme, and unjustifiably and
disgracefully linking it to a sensitive/controversial issue
exactly to cause argument and division”
1930’s Germany…..what’s the fuss, it is only a little yellow star they have to pin on their clothing.
The Scottish people might benefit from a «party» wised up as to the nature of the world evolving around them, not one assuming the position in which the citizens get shafted by an infantalizing system with all cultural sophistication of the old pervs who stalk TikTok.
On another track, the SNP has been in power long enough to have set up the structures necessary for a sovereign state in waiting. On a specific the Met Office, located Exeter business park, an executive agency and trading fund of the UK Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, handles the tech for Scotland. Why?
Iceland pop.<400k has a sophisticated structure for monitoring the country’s geophysics.
Infrastructure is an area in which the current régime appears to lack the requisite «can do». In progressing understanding and knowledge in this area some intelligence is certainly necessary.
Craig P: “Yet the Yes movement stands like Nigel Quashie before an open Norwegian goal…”
It was Chris Iwelumo. Quashie was rank but it’s a wee bit unfair to blame him for that! Pretty funny when you look back now, but anything but from my seat in the South Stand at the time. Must’ve celebrated for a full minute before, “WFT do ye mean he missed?!”
Of course the whole point of the sanctimonious AIM drivel is nothing to do with ‘tolerance’ and ‘respect’. Rather it is another unsubtle attempt by SNP cultists to have control over all aspects of a Yes movement. The more pertinent question will be what sanction they will seek over refuseniks and free thinkers. Their attempt to button up Yes and police the thoughts of others is entirely consistent with their demagoguery. What chance independent thought in an independent Scotland controlled by them?
“It’s probably bad taste to call them the Provisional TRAs “
100% stealing that ?
Robert Louis @7.28
‘ unelected fascist dictatorship – Scotland’s having none of it’
Sadly, in Sturgeon, Scotland has all of it. Worse still, the people elected her.
and bundled from the stage by a shrieking mob of balaclava-clad, Stonewall-approved Rainbow Stormtroopers (Black Pampers Division). Lol ?
Or the provisional TRA’s ??
Comedy gold .
Just how f***ed up is “f***ed up”? Simply look at the SNP!
Horrendous as AIM and the Provisional TRA’s are, I’m afraid their misogynistic idiocy is still totally unknown to large sections of the population who aren’t as politically engaged or knowledgeable as the folk who post in here.
After a social event yesterday I was having drinks with a group of neighbours and friends who attended the event, some pro and some anti independence. Only myself and one other female member of the group had any inkling of what was going on with the Provisional TRA’s, TWAW, the attacks on women’s safe spaces, women’s prisons, the going’s on at the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre etc. A few of the others were dimly aware of some of the issues, and Joanna Cherry being monstered and othered (interestingly all of those present – even the unionists – rated Cherry highly).
All of the others were taken aback at what we discussed: a few frankly disbelieved what we were saying, and it was only really because myself and the other guest who knew what was going on are politically poles apart that it gave the rest pause for thought.
We can’t assume the population as a whole either knows about these issues, or centres them to the extent many of us do. Even if they think the Provisional TRA’s policies and beliefs are abhorrent, anti-scientific woo-woo when they are explained to them, sadly a lot may still just shrug and move on, on the principle that it’s just what politicos do, and have always done.
They’ll put their heads down and concentrate on the current economic crisis, how they can pay their energy bills and make ends meet, and – sadly – many of them will still dutifully vote SNP on the principle that the alternatives are worse, and they haven’t really heard much about Alba and/or don’t like Alex Salmond.
Andy Ellis @ 11:51 am
Yes, you are spot on. Most people I know have little or no clue about what the state of play is, sadly. They simply couldn’t care less.
The SNP INDY DEATH CULT is knock knock knocking on * Heaven’s Gate * . Scanning the skies for the return of Hale-Bopp , which this time around will bear the telltale likeness to the exploding star from the outer reaches of the Transiverse called Sturgeon’s Arse and herald a total eclipse of Independence and a new dawn for all AIMs chillun .
And people here and elsewhere are STILL talking about winning a Referendum or PE . With these lunatics dictating the campaign .
Are you out of your minds ?
Still too we hear ” there are good people in the SNP ” : never was an oxy so moronic .
There can’t be any * good people * in an organisation so thoroughly currupted and beyond redemption .
Actual good people wouldn’t be seen within a mile of such an impending disaster
” I’m afraid their misogynistic idiocy is still totally unknown to large sections of the population who aren’t as politically engaged or knowledgeable as the folk who post in here.”
Ellis
Well, well, well, the above is a big surprise.
Your sentence must encompass The Claim of Right and all it conventions and assemblies as well, for they too are mostly unknown to the wider Scottish public.
Your sentence must encompass The Claim of Right and all it conventions and assemblies as well, for they too are mostly unknown to the wider Scottish public.
And you point is caller…?
Can you imagine a TV debate between Better Together and whatever spokesman/woman/non-binary the SNP/Greens have put forward to humiliate us…
Host: “So how do you define a woman?”
BT rep (knowing full well that this isn’t so much an Achilles heel as a whole fkin leg plus most of the torso): “A woman is an adult human female.” This answer will be given despite what they might actually think.
Yes rep: {Insert garbled, biology-defying lunacy here.}
Aghast TV audience: “WTAF???”
Most agree the stupidity of all this trans self ID nonsense.
Question is where is the money behind all this ? This hasn’t just happened by chance .
Stonewall and umpteen others must have been bought ? By whom?
How can you become an SNP Council leader with such a history and warnings apparently
from a number of sources and then this-
It is the Westminster Record but where is the correction to these claims?
link to dailyrecord.co.uk
@Robert Hughes
And people here and elsewhere are STILL talking about winning a Referendum or PE . With these lunatics dictating the campaign .
I doubt many (any?) folk in here still think a referendum is likely in any reasonable timescale, still less in 2023 as the SNP loyalists insist.
Many are however fairly convinced that plebiscitary elections are probably the most likely rout to independence in any reasonable timescale. Irrespective of whether the SNP rank and file grow a pair and politically defenestrate Sturgeon and her unsavoury cabal or not, winning 50% + 1 of votes in either a Westminster or Holyrood election, whilst not easy, still seems a more plausible route than the “cunning plans for indy” being proposed as an alternative.
Laudable as the aims of Salvo, SSRG and others might be in educating the movement about the country’s constitutional past, 300 year old treaties and their many and various potential schemes for concocting a Convention of the Estates / National Assembly / Constituent Assembly / Sovereign Scottish People’s Assembly, none of them have convincingly shown how such schemes are likely to produce results faster than plebiscitary elections in 2024 or perhaps earlier.
There seems to be a growing school of thought that a crisis is coming, and that it will somehow accelerate matters and provide a shortcut. I think it was Hatuey who insisted on an earlier thread that the timescale was 4 months. I have my doubts, though perhaps in five months time events will have proven me wrong, and him right.
It just seems like there’s a whole lot of wishful thinking going on that some deus ex machina is going to drop the ideal circumstances in to the laps of proponents of “cunning plans for indy”. I wonder what odds the bookies would give for this upcoming Great Reset?
Now we can see the reason for the sudden flurry of activity on the moribund SNP independence front. Beginning with their bound-to-fail reference to the Supreme Court, the SNP has grabbed the initiative, set the vehicle for Scottish independence on fire and sent it careering downhill to crash and burn while Sturgeon and her cohorts dance gleefully.
I don’t believe for a moment that Mike Russell believes any of this rancid nonsense but that he, with the rest of the authoritarian leadership, are bent on destroying any cohesive attempts at a unified movement and this is their means of blowing it apart.
Like the mad fringe of self-id believers, they would rather close down any rational route to independence. This will be their legacy and many will not forget or forgive them for this because it is their obvious intention to shatter any hopes of independence.
A code of conduct surely coming to a political party near you anytime soon.
It cannot be too long before signing up and adhering to such Official Narratives becomes a precondition for employment; trade union membership; receipt of benefits (including pension); having a bank account; renting or owning a house; access to utility services; shopping; voting, access to money and resources; obtaining a bus pass/passport/
birth certificate; health treatment; being allowed to marry; funeral services; education; and being allowed to die for your Country.
Re «head of state» concept.
The US has an elected monarch who fulfills all the criteria for past use date, but the Americans are stuck with him, unless he sinks further into senility (but who can tell?), until nov. 2024.
Being no fan of such elected monarchic functions, the less «power» in the hands of individuals, whether notional or not, the better, an iScotland could get by with an ad hoc figure chosen at random from the electoral list for the occasion.
iScotland ought to stand out from the herd. Bidens, Xis, Macrons, Al Sisis, presidential palaces no thanks. Republics do not need such props, the people and the constitution they collectively and rationally formulate and develop ought to be enough.
Thou shalt not deify the state, neither shalt thou make demi gods of its functionaries.
Provisional TRAs.
That’s exactly what they are.
They’re dangerous & unhinged incels.
They can’t get a shag from either sex, not even the animals, so the world must pay.
These nutters even have their own dark forums to plot from or ranting YouTube channels. Look at that nutter from Plymouth who went on a murderous rampage. Psychologists have dedicated analysis channels to. Yep! They’re mentally unstable folks! Approach with extreme caution. That can even include looking at them the wrong way. They have multiple disorders.
Sturgeon: Yay! mon in folks! We’re welcoming! I’ll gie ye a job setting policy!
Maybe she’s not getting any either? ?
Just roll on with proper campaigning, as Alex Salmond is doing at the moment, and ignore them.
They SNP has no right whatsoever to set itself up as some kind of certification body or disciplinary committee for the entirety of the independence campaign. If members of the SNP think it necessary to sign a pledge over and above the code of conduct all members sign up to when they join their party, that is their business.
Each party, or campaigning organisation, as they well know, is entitled to deal with matters of discipline by itself according to its own code.
Robin McAlpine being a serious writer stops short of calling “Nikkis plans for indy” a bag of shite – but he is using analogies of mazes, without exits – which is a very clever way of putting it.
– alienating the majority of folk and prospective new supporters to placate an insane special interest group, throwing us all out of the wider indy movement – looking like maniacs – yeah, its almost like they don’t want to win, but that’s just a “conspiracy theory”
“for people who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like … ” – quite
As you age, you find, often with dismay, that “mad old bastards” from the past – were actually right about everything, e.g. Mary Whitehouse was banging on about all this back in the 1970s, she saw where it would lead (we giggled at Dick Emery and thought it all a joke) – and what of today? Perhaps a re-appraisal of the Westboro Baptist Church is in order.
“Seizing the dictionary” as a tactic, creating your own definitions and (nonsense) concepts, along with re-definitions of existing terms – is pretty clever. Then by relentless activism you get a lot of “reasonable sounding” laws put on the books, but they are now applied with draconian intent, to silence opponents. The jewish lobby – very clever fellows – did this first with THEIR definition of “anti semitism”.
Not only is “transphobia” redefined in their terms, but so are a bunch of other terms – “anglophobia”? – a little satirical sketch about the “new colonials” at House of Bruar in their Range Rovers, would I transgress? Or what about saying “indy is about the Scots” and “Scotland belongs to the Scots” – is that ethnic wrong-nationalism? Does claiming someone born here, with parents and grandparents born here, lived, schooled and worked here – all his life – having more claim to Scotland than an outsider, fail? WTF is indy about if it is not about the Scots, I mean the outsiders already have the run of it.
Because these folks are mostly idiots (wound up by others) they fail to realise the inconsistency of their own position; religious exemptions can let you say what you like – “Islamophobia” is also forbidden, but islam is strongly against woke-ism. I am hoping that sometime soon, some hysterical tranny defames the prophet on social media, then we will see trouble.
Our own “deplorables” will save us from the trans menace (as predicted)
link to dailymail.co.uk
and a bonus track
link to thescottishsun.co.uk
Certainly not running with Andy’ s so often mentioned civic nationalism, much prefer the natives idea of the word nationalism.
But here is the laughable paradox here from AIM, they have just enacted and ticked of everyone of their own boxes.
The SNP have just used DISCRIMINATION to target a specific group in Scotland,
Showing a predjudjuce towards the Indy group specifically before all others.
Rejecting all other groups in Scotland such as Tory party, civil servants, tourists, labour party forieign visitors, A visiting prime minster from England. Unless the SNP are boss over Westminster too.
Thus displaying in-Equality towards a certain Group of people in Scotland,
Showing intolerance towards independence groups for Scotland group only.
By rejecting their rights in the community
To have equal freedom
If leaving the Union is to get anywhere, it cannot be via the SNP. That much should be clear to the most loyal of loyalists and headbangers, the latter never intending to have independence in any case. If we want a better Scotland after independence, we cannot so that with the SNP either. The answer? Get rid of the SNP.
The arrogance of these people cited is legendary: each one would eat him/her self if he/ she was made of chocolate. They are poseurs and virtue-signallers, all. God, Mike Russell! When he started sporting that stupid itty-bitty beard-not-a-beard, I sussed the direction he was going in. You are an old man, Michael, not some spotty teenage trans activist, so grow up. You don’t even believe in this rubbish. Daddy Bear, as per, leading the infants like the Pied Piper of Stirling, slavering over the next step to power. Waste of space, the lot of them.
We have to get shot of these people and their cohort – all of them – before we can even contemplate getting out of the Union. These people are either British State agents or so malign and power-hungry that they really believe this s***e and will use it to keep us in what will be a Scottish pronoun prison. Men in frocks are men. Women in beards are women. No ifs, no buts. Stop treating them as if they don’t actually know that. They know.
Like the two ‘trans women lesbians’ set up on a date with each other who each blew his top, wailing: I wanted a woman. Ay, ye did, ye big, walloping woman facers. You wanted a woman to f**k, which makes you predatory, heterosexual MEN. That the SNP should have enabled all this c**p is testament to its uselessness on independence and much else. They are playing a game as per with people who have supported them physically, spiritually and monetarily, using them again, spitting contempt in their faces. We need to get them out of Scottish politics – all of them. SNP! OUT, OUT, OUT!
The wishful thinking is a plebicite election run by the snp. Under stone wall ideology,
The very purpose of the the devolved government was to styme any evidence of a way forward to independence.
“And you point is caller…?”
My point is spread all over the end of the last thread, where you derided them and Sarah Salyers, but well leave it at that.
“Lorna Campbell says:
31 July, 2022 at 2:04 pm
If leaving the Union is to get anywhere, it cannot be via the SNP.”
Bang Lorna, Sturgeon has betrayed us and her MPs and MSPs have kept quiet on what’s actually going on within the nuSNP, the prefer to keep their snout pressed firmly into the taxpayers trough, rather than stand up for Scotland.
Unfortunately many of the indy masses can’t see past her or her party and they think she’ll still deliver independence, boy are they in for a rude awakening.
Why Sturgeon’s Witchfinder General decided to allow the UKSC to decide.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
RepublicofScotland 2:13pm
I wonder if those *fingers in ears* types were ever indy to start with?
I have my doubts.
Haud: the money has been tracked back to Big Pharma, Big Tech, etc. These are owned by American families, some with a ‘trans’ member – usually a great, hulking brute in a frock who appears to be barely human, let alone a woman. American politicians have enabled these people – narcissists to a man and – er – man for bungs.
This is where it started, then spread to Canada where Justin the Unjust introduced it into every Canadian institution. It then spread to London, before coming up here, where the SNP was ripe for plucking. It is rooted in predatory capitalism, neoliberalism and neoconservatism, all masquerading, like the men in frocks, as left wing. It did start in the hard left, but the hard left, as we should be aware by now, always opens the door to the right and hard right with its insane policies.
Many of us will be left-wing or even moderate conservative with a small ‘c’, but these two extreme wings of the left and right are quite deranged. Destroying everything from the past and reconstructing society along the lines of complete freedom – actually complete sexual freedom – is, very naturally, a recipe for disaster, but when society breaks down, it is ripe for plucking like the SNP was, to be used and abused by those whose sole motivation is profit and totalitarianism for the masses, off-set by sex till you boak with anyone and anything living or dead, regardless of age.
Modification of bodies, the need for life-long drugs and blockers alone will provide massive profits for the few individuals poised to take advantage. The West is just the beginning, so beware every other continent. China has already opened its first ‘trans’ clinic as we are closing down the Tavistock, in England. This entire movement is predicated on predation and parasitical invasion. It was never about puir wee sowels who had dysphoria/dysmorphia (a minuscule number of people); it was always about the tranquillizer of unlimited sex for the masses to blind them to their fate.
RepublicofScotland 2.26pm.
Same reason Evans wasn’t sacked. BoJo is her boss, not Sturgeon.
Holyrood is a Mickey Mouse administration of Westminster. Thats all. A grandiose talking shop. It has no authority to take a crap without Westminsters appointed informers reporting back to their boss.
If our Sovereignty is to get its first airing this is it,
Let us get this straight from the beginning, I severely oppose any form of violence in Scotland to gain our independence, so any deliberate antagonist trying to ramp it up here or any where else should be ignored,
there is a good indication which side their bread is buttered on.
Elections are to distant in the future to hold any meaning to the damage being done here and now to the Scots, and Scotland.by the SNP.
Withdrawning support for the snp is one of the quickest method, Not just by party members but by those of us not a snp members also.
A protest can take many forms, I quite like the Idea someone mentioned long time ago, no marches where we can be beaten up, but a protest by withdrawn financial support,
Just protect your finances before taking part would be my advise,
now the reason for furlough and everyone put on to universal credit becomes obvious, your bank accounts can be plundered, stopped and controlled by governments before you receive it,
Their not daft, they thought ahead,
But this is only one way to protest the snp out of government.
That SNP logo on their website with the rainbow colours instead of the usual black logo on a yellow background. This means SNP has been infiltrated/taken over/whatever by the UK/US deep state. Five Eyes/ MI5/ whoever will be very proud!
We will need another mass indy organisation if there is another ref.
Hail Alba!
James che says:
31 July, 2022 at 2:46 pm
now the reason for furlough and everyone put on to universal credit becomes obvious, your bank accounts can be plundered, stopped and controlled by governments before you receive it,
Their not daft, they thought ahead,
You’ve come out with some barking nonsense in your time, but this tinhat drivel truly takes the Tunnocks.
What chance do we have?
Watching Englands Fallen Empire Games on TV.
The team Triathalon is on and Scotland in credible 5th place.
Hand over to Sophia Green to begin her swim.
Every single competitor proudly wearing their nations colours except this woman
who has a Union Jack wet suit on.
If it were up to me, I’d sunk her Scottish representation right there!
@Mark Boyle –
Have just read your 9.51am comment on the previous thread.
Very interesting, thanks.
“Watching Englands Fallen Empire Games on TV.”
Effigy.
At first the games represented the power and reach of imperialist Britain, now they are reported on a sign of Britain’s benevolence by the Britnat media.
On the Butchers Apron wetsuit maybe she’s a relative of Ian (Union Jack Suit) Murray.
“Same reason Evans wasn’t sacked. BoJo is her boss, not Sturgeon.”
Geri.
You’ll get no argument for me on that, MI5 must have shitload of dirt on her into the bargain, and Fifth Column parties aside at Holyrood Labour/LibDems/Tories, the betrayers MSPs/MPs who are gutless and spineless must also have within their ranks those working for the English security services.
We’re fighting a system full of House Jocks from top to bottom, from the Civil service to the COPFS the Police, Judiciary, councillors etc, who are all on the unions gravy train placed or parachuted into position as gatekeepers for the status quo.
A status quo that keeps Scotland tied to this union, and stops Scotland from fulfilling its potential.
Using the term transwoman or transman according to the SNP’s definition of transphobia is transphobic.
The term transwoman/transman immediately outs that person as being a biological man/woman.
How can you have trans pride if you are ashamed of being trans?
Can anyone tell me what is meant by intemperate language?
Does this just mean ‘thou must not swear’ or would it cover Nicola Sturgeon/Patrick Harvie having a hissy fit.
My other question is how many of the phobias listed in their ten commandments are illegal/a hate crime
already.
ie Anglophobia, Islamophobia = racism
Misogyny recently added as hate crime.
Perhaps they should add ‘thou must not ‘steal’ money donated by supporters for an independence campaign.
Is it possible that people are aware of what is going on in Scotland because they only read The Times & watch BBC.
People will know all about the Tory leadership contest but not a clue what is going on in their own backyard.
Ooops unaware not aware.
Certainly not running with Andy’ s so often mentioned civic nationalism, much prefer the natives idea of the word nationalism.
You – as a blood and soil nativist – and your regressive populist compadres, don’t get to (re)define civic nationalism as a movement that endorses the Provisional TRA thougn James.
As others, including Rev Stu himself, have pointed out if you believe in nativism and disenfranchising up to 20% of Scots because you’re ferat they might vote the wrong way, you are every bit as dangerous to the success of the independence movement as the Provisional TRA.
Nativists are not on the same side as mainstream civic nationalists just because you believe in the same ultimate goal, anymore than the candy floss haired Twitler Youth infesting the SNP and Greens are on the same side as us because they also (purport to?) believe in independence.
The small minority of populists within the movement who advocate franchise restriction or wholesale disenfranchisement of large numbers of New Scots can try and reframe civic nationalism all they want, but it just won’t wash.
@RepublicofScotland
My point is spread all over the end of the last thread, where you derided them and Sarah Salyers, but well leave it at that.
I agree your point is all over the place, but that’s just par for the course with your input, so hard to tell. I can see why you’d want to leave such a weak hand on the table. I didn’t deride anyone. I asked pertinent questions and cast doubt on airy assertions of certainty made by those pushing “cunning plans for indy”.
As yet, not a single person has been able to answer the quite reasonable questions asked about who decides who will constitute these novel bodies, whatever they are called, who will pay for them, how they will demonstrate majority support, and whether there is any support from relevant subject matter experts to support their proposals.
(Note: Sara Salyers, Alf Baird and others, whatever their other qualities are NOT experts in constitutional law or history as far as I’ve been able to discern).
Refer to them as what they are,Terrorists. They also seem to like sporting the outfit too.
If this were a religious group spreading dangerous ideology & dumb science to terrorise with threats of violence & hate it would’ve been classified as such a long time ago & it’s oxygen removed.
Instead we seem saddled with a moron who not only placates it but funds it too.
Feck their jumped up code of conduct & the nutters who wrote it. Giving into these nutjobs demands only fuels further extremism to keep amending their list as ‘but not limited to’ proves.
Ruby, it’s had passing comment in the leadership debates. Passing being the operative word i.e fuck off, morons – the adults are talking right now.
Andy Ellis
What is it Stu is supposed to have said regards disenfranchising 20% of voters?
As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, other countries & Inc UNs *internationally recognised & accepted best practices* do not have a free for all on important matters such as a countries constitutional affairs.
But, Einstein, when we do eventually have indyref2 shall we put that theory to the test again just to make doubly sure next time?
What other countries do this? None.
Weird, but somehow i do not associate Scot.gov with fecundity, more go forth and atrophy.
You are the only danger to the independence movement.
You’re the only one advocating breaking internationally recognised standards & have a free for all Scotland’s constitutional matters.
Resulting in the same failed experiment on Scotland’s right to self determination decided for us by the exact same outsiders & then it really would be generations to recover.
What’d you say then? Oh, you just didn’t convince enough outsiders to your cause BS?
You’re not an indy supporter are you? No one enters a race with their hands tied behind their back. You want to knobble any vote. Stick to the doomed to fail recipe we had before eh?
@Geri
I refer you to Stu’s exasperated thread of 13th July 2021 on twitter:
“ If you want to deny 20% of the people who live in Scotland the vote in a referendum because they were born somewhere else , we’re not on the same side.
If you want their votes, fucking well persuade them. If you can’t, your case is shit.
And stop whining that by saying this I’m trying to “shut down debate”. I have no power and no desire to stop you debating it. You can debate it all you want. I’m not reporting you to Twitter or the police. I’m just not interested.
We debated this in 2011 and we came to the right decision. Nothing has happened that justifies abandoning that principle in my view. You can’t just disenfranchise people because you think they’ll vote the wrong way.
As well as being morally wrong, it’s almost certainly self-defeating. The Scotland you’d be trying to sell people under that franchise is a very different place to the one we were advocating in 2014, and very much for the worse.
That, of course, is true in many ways. If we got a referendum tomorrow I don’t in all honesty know if I could bring myself to campaign in it, because it’d be a *de facto* campaign for Nicola Sturgeon’s vision of a hellish, intolerant, incompetent and corrupt Scotland.
But that’s not a decision I need to lose sleep over, because we’re not getting a referendum tomorrow, or next year, or the year after that, or the year after that.
But I’ve officially lost any urge to even think about it, if even the people opposed to that awful vision just have a different kind of awful vision, of a country where only “ethnic Scots” have a say. Bollocks to that.”
As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, other countries & Inc UNs *internationally recognised & accepted best practices* do not have a free for all on important matters such as a countries constitutional affairs.
And as has been pointed out to you and other regressive nativists repeatedly, you are NOT comparing like with like. The franchise used by ALREADY independent countries to decide constitutional questions is based on CITIZENSHIP. Scotland doesn’t have citizens, because it is not yet independent.
Self determination referendums – outside colonial situations – OVERHWELMINGLY use residence criteria, not birth, ethnic or “future citizenship” criteria.
No matter how often you and others try to obfuscate this issue, you misdirection becomes no more true, and no more convincing. Go and do the research yourself if you doubt it. There are a coupe of instances of places seeking self determination applying residence criteria of 24 months AT MOST.
You don’t have to be Einstein to see that regressive nativism and franchise restriction is morally wrong, electorally questionable and out of step with international practice and precedent, you just need a functioning internet connection and a moral compass.
What’s your excuse?
“(Note: Sara Salyers, Alf Baird and others, whatever their other qualities are NOT experts in constitutional law or history as far as I’ve been able to discern).”
Ellis
As far as I’m aware none of them claim to be, but that didn’t stop you, and your gang ridiculing their comments strange for someone who purports to “support” an independent Scotland.
@Geri
You are the only danger to the independence movement.
So me, and Rev Stu, every pro-indy political party and virtually everyone in any position of influence in the movement are dangers to the independence movement, but you and a small coterie of regressive, populist nativists are the keepers of the true flame? Aye, right. Away and gie yer heid a shake.
You’re the only one advocating breaking internationally recognised standards & have a free for all Scotland’s constitutional matters.
The international standards for self determination referendums are clear. Precedent is clear:
– Quebec (1980 & 1995) enfranchised all Canadian citizens resident in Quebec;
– Slovenia (1990) enfranchised all Slovenian citizens including those Yugoslav citizens with internal ID cards who were born in other Yugoslav republics;
– Lithuania (1991) enfranchised all people who held Lithuanian nationality in 1940 and their descendants, and Soviet citizens to agreed to renounce their Soviet citizenship between 1989 & 1991. Soviet military personnel stationed in Lithuania were specifically excluded.
– Estonia (1991) – Individuals with a permanent Soviet residence card in Estonia (i.e. including all former non-ethnically Estonian Soviet citizens).
– Latvia (1991) – Individuals with a permanent Soviet residence card in Latvia.
– Macedonia (1991) enfranchised on the same basis as Slovenia and allowed its citizens abroad to participate.
– “The country that shall no be named” (1991) – Residents in the country. The Electorate also included Soviet soldiers stationed in the country.
– Bosnia & Hercegovina (1992) – Yugoslavian citizens with permanent residency.
– Timor L’Este (1999) – Those born in the country, with a parent born in the country, or whose spouse or in-laws were born in the country.
– Montenegro (2006) – Individuals with 24 months minimum residency, and all those with Serb-Montenegrin nationality.
– South Sudan (2011) – All permanent residents of South Sudan or those whose parents or grandparents were permanent residents since 1956.
– Scotland (2014) – Residents in Scotland with British, EU or Commonwealth nationality.
– Catalonia (2014) – Residents in Catalonia with Spanish nationality, EU nationality, EEA nationality or Swiss nationality.
If anyone is proposing something contrary to internationally recognised standards it is you and the blood and soil nationalists infecting the movement.
Resulting in the same failed experiment on Scotland’s right to self determination decided for us by the exact same outsiders & then it really would be generations to recover.
Persuade more people to vote Yes. Register more voters. Increase turnout. All of those would swamp the number of New Scots you and your regressive populist mates want to disenfranchise.
You’re not an indy supporter are you? No one enters a race with their hands tied behind their back. You want to knobble any vote. Stick to the doomed to fail recipe we had before eh?
Typical hard of thinking nativist response. Anyone disagreeing with them can’t be a *real* independence supporter. It’s exactly the same kind of othering tactics and smearing used by Project Fear during indyref1. I’d ask if you and yer regressive mates had no shame, but long experience has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don’t.
Far easier to hide behind the anonymous ID on here and spout your regressive nativism, because you’re too chicken shit to own it publicly.
“And as has been pointed out to you and other regressive nativists”
Ellis.
I take it by above sentence you are referring to the English government who have suspended democracy by denying Scots a right to hold an indyref, as Theresa May and Boris Johnson’s government has.
The other regressive nativist Liz Truss has said that she won’t under any circumstances allow another indyref, yes I think we all know who the, as you put it, regressive nativists really are.
Constitutional wise other nations do not always enfranchise those not born in the country, Scotland has to be extra careful on who it enfranchises due to our position of being tied to this god awful union. I still support a ten years residency, however this doesn’t help negate PVS tampering in such an important vote.
In my opinion postal votes should be counted where they are, and not moved, they should always be hand counted in full view, and no ex-Tory or private firms software should be used in the process.
Of course with a treacherous wretch such as Sturgeon at the head of any indyref campaign, none of the above will be adhered to, in my opinion Sturgeon should not be anywhere near an indyref, and I hope she never is.
As far as I’m aware none of them claim to be, but that didn’t stop you, and your gang ridiculing their comments strange for someone who purports to “support” an independent Scotland.
I didn’t say they had, but the proponents of “cunning plans for indy” keep citing their unassailable evidence and bigging up their achievements. It’s hardly exceptional to ask where the back up for their analysis is from SME in the relevant field, and yet…there appears to be nothing. Not a single one, whether from Scotland, the rest of the UK or internationally. Seems a bit odd? Have they asked?
As for the “purports to “support an independent Scotland” ” dig, remember, I’m not the snivelling anonymous online coward hiding behind their anonymity like you, so I can safely post how the residents of “Country 404” had it coming amongst other gems.
Unlike you, I don’t have to lower myself to construct fanciful conspiracy theories that anyone who disagrees with them *must* be a yoon, or an MI5 agent, or a Sturgeonite stooge. It just makes you look a bit barking. Moonhowler is as moonhowler does I suppose? Conspiracy theorising and regressive nativism seem to be circles that overlap almost totally in the Venn diagram of Scottish nationalism.
In news for our regressive nativist claque in here, Alba Edinburgh branch had a street stall in Stockbridge today. Apparently reception was excellent, and I quote: “especially from new Scots from Australia and the US”.
That’ll be the same new Scots the blood and soil types want to disenfranchise then? Shame that…!
Shall we tell them to come back in 10 years time when Republicofscotland thinks they’ll be valid?
The vote for foreigner abroad is always that straight forward.
Antigua and Barbuda
(CN member) Commonwealth citizens may vote and are eligible for parliamentary elections, but “allegiance to a foreign State” is a criterion for ineligibility
Argentina.
Though foreign residents cannot vote in national elections (president and vice–president and national legislators), they can vote in provinces which have legislation to allow foreigners to vote in provincial/municipal elections.
Austria
(EU member) In 2002, non-citizens were granted voting rights in state elections in Vienna, but the decision was overturned by the Constitutional Court in June 2004.
I’m not going to post them all but many as you can see don’t give the vote (constitutional) or if they do in some cases (check the link) a residency criteria (time lived in the country is mandatory.
Barbados
(CN member) As of 1990, Commonwealth citizens may vote for parliamentary elections with a 3 years residency requirement.
Belize
(CN member) Commonwealth citizens who are domiciled or have resided in the country for at least one year immediately before polling day are qualified as electors, but not for eligibility to the House of Representatives, which requires Belize citizenship.
Canada
(CN member) Voting rights at the federal level in Canada are exclusively limited to Canadian citizens.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Can we please take Dorothy Devine’s advice from months ago and ignore that foghorn?
He has slowly but surely returned to the behaviour which ended up dominating each and every thread. He’s strangling every conversation with the usual mixture of insults and circular arguments. I’m as guilty as anyone else of rising to it but it’s plain that he’s not changed in any way and is just reverting to type.
If Stu’s not going to enforce his own warnings then we have to take it into our own hands – boycott Ellis by blanking him, period. I got a private message from a well-known blogger, night before last, asking why Stu allows characters like this to demean the place with constant aggression and insults. I had to tell him I haven’t a clue. Bottom line – Ellis is damaging this place and putting off people reading and/or commenting. And he’s doing it deliberately.
RepublicofScotland
Correct. & All explained before.
But Andy knows best, in all things & will try involve moderation if need be.
That *internationally recognised* shite he keeps spouting is soon dropped when it comes to Scotland & her affairs.
Strange that eh?
@Republicofscotland
All of the examples you quote have precisely zero to do with self determination. You know this. Alert readers know this. Comparing apples with oranges doesn’t help what passes for you argument. Do better. Be better. We can but hope.
How many new Scots are there from Australia & the US?
Re the 10 year residency.
Is that 10 consecutive years or a total of 10 years?
I remember sitting through the franchise debate way back in 2012 or whenever it was.
Every proposal had it’s problems. The solution had to be compromise.
I can spot many problems with asking for 10 consecutive years of residency.
THE 2014 franchise would be fine if they excluded holiday home owners, temporary students and those resident for only a month.
More could be done to tighten up on postal votes.
What I would love to know is why the franchise is such a burning issue here on Wings.
@Andy Ellis 6:23pm
Can I just add the legal work informed by International lawyers on the Irish Reunification referendum and the franchise in particular. Huge amount of effort has gone into making the result unimpeachable. And that’s what you need for a clean sustainable post referendum solution. I have commented on this research before but its lost in the sands of time. On Stu’s original post on Provo TRA no dissenters again. Why is this message not breaking through to the Scottish Public?.
I’ve just remember this:
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm
Andy Ellis, Ruby: if either of you ever mentions the other by name (including any “clever” ways of doing so indirectly) again in any context whatsoever you’re banned. Clear? Not comment deleted, not pre-moderation, banned.
I have HAD ENOUGH of this fucking playground shit.
Gotta go otherwise I could end up being banned.
Bye!
George Ferguson says:
31 July, 2022 at 7:03 pm
On Stu’s original post on Provo TRA no dissenters again. Why is this message not breaking through to the Scottish Public?.
I was on my way out when I spotted your very interesting question George. Could it be that it’s just too far fetched for people to take seriously?
I’m as guilty as anyone else of rising to it but it’s plain that he’s not changed in any way and is just reverting to type.
Pot…meet kettle. You keep flouncing off having had your arse handed to you in argument Ian, but like a dog returning to its own vomit here you are again. I’ll happily ignore all your contributions, as I had been doing for months until you just couldn’t help yourself and addressed comments directly at me a few threads ago.
As for you attempts to “tone police” the BTL discussion, good luck with that one.
As for your eminent friend, I wonder which one it was? Was it the one who routinely deletes comments from folk who disagree with him on his blog, or was it the one who described me as “English Ellis” for disagreeing with his approval of regressive nativism?
Nobody obliges you or others to interact. I’m happy to let you in particular howl against the storm. I don’t believe for a minute that you and a handful of regressive nativists who have taken up residence BTL here represent a general view, or that you’re entitled to say who is and who is not putting people off commenting.
It’s just as likely that regressive nativism, outlandish conspiracy theorising and droning on ad nauseam about 300 year treaties is turning folk off.
@George Ferguson 7.03 pm
Can I just add the legal work informed by International lawyers on the Irish Reunification referendum and the franchise in particular. Huge amount of effort has gone into making the result unimpeachable. And that’s what you need for a clean sustainable post referendum solution. I have commented on this research before but its lost in the sands of time. </b?
Agreed. That's the kind of thing required, but what we appear to have is a bunch of – at best – enthusiastic amateurs, being fluffed by the usual suspects in here as unimpeachable sources delivering some "slam dunk" solution to delivering indy within months, while bypassing trifling things like votes or demonstrating majority support. If it wasn't so delusional it'd almost be funny.
On Stu’s original post on Provo TRA no dissenters again. Why is this message not breaking through to the Scottish Public?.
I think for many of them it is that they simply aren’t interested in politics, and don’t read about politics in newspapers or listen to it on radio or TV. They’ll only register a particular issue if it becomes a “cause celebre”. I bet most of the politically disengaged knew about Salmond’s case.
I’d also wager that if Joanna Cherry had left the SNP and joined Alba while going for the throats of the Provisional TRA, that the message would be far better known than it is now. As it is, I doubt the matter will be as big an issue as many think when it comes to a general campaign.
Ellis, you haven’t once engaged in ‘argument’ with anyone on this site. You deride and belittle anyone who makes any comment at all which isn’t in keeping with whatever your ‘civic nationalism’ happens to be on any given day. You have never *ever* offered a positive suggestion as to how we can get out of this impasse. (If you have, please remind us what it was.)Your daily business here – for months, nay years – has consisted of goading, gloating, and looking down at every other contributor from your high horse.
By Rev’s own rules – the ones you promised to adhere to – you should no longer be here. And you know it.
Ian Brotherhood
I see no real need to defend Andy Ellis as he does very well on his own.
The fact that he continually responds to the dreamers and romantics on here who would rather drone on constantly about 300 year old treaties says much for his stamina and his desire to see an Independent Scotland. Achieved by the ONLY way it can happen-via the ballot box. Not by some mythical means that the sane and the sensible KNOW will not occur.
The fact that he and a few others point out the stupidity of the ‘one track minds’ of The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade should be celebrated by anyone who is serious about Independence for Scotland.
@Andy Ellis 7:39pm
They may not be interested in politics but I can assure you they are interested in the welfare of their children. We can’t get public information out there on this stuff. Agreed about Joanna a QC would have been a welcomed addition to the common sense Scots. Alas it wasn’t to be.
@Chas –
Okay champ, why don’t you and your pal Ellis tell us who the members of The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade actually are? (I assume it’s the same grouping that Ellis refers to as ‘nativists’, ‘moonhowlers’ etc)
I’ll also assume that I’m on the list, just to get it started. Then there’s ROS, Breeks, Ruby, Tinto Chiel…
Who else?
Let’s see the list. Then the other regulars and the 99.5% who never ever comment can decide whether or not we’re the problem here.
Because let’s face it – there *is* a problem, and ignoring it doesn’t do anyone any favours.
@Brotherhood 7.44 pm
I’d respond to your tantrum in detail, but this is me ignoring you now…
@George Ferguson 7.55 pm
They may not be interested in politics but I can assure you they are interested in the welfare of their children.
Yeah, I get that. I know quite a few folk who are entirely disinterested in politics, and assume all politicians are the same and always will be. They’re just going to have their heads down trying to get by over the coming months. Trying to convince them that there’s a better way will be a struggle. Hopefully they’ll see that increasingly the SNP are a busted flush.
So every doctor who tells a TW to get a prostate check because he’s a biological man is transphobic. Should we ignore prostate cancer?
Every doctor who tells a TW not to get a cervical smear because he’s a biological man is transphobic. Should we just let them waste women’s resources?
Every doctor who tells a TW not to get a blood transfusion from a once pregnant woman because he’s a biological man is transphobic, despite trying to save his life.
Every woman who tells a TW to get out of her changing room because he’s a biological man is both transphobic and required to see penises against her will.
Every woman who tells a TW to get out of her changing room because he’s a biological man as there are girls present is both transphobic and not allowed to question paedos.
Every woman who tells a TW to get out of her rugby team because he’s a biological man is transphobic, even though she is following rugby rules.
The list is endless. #SexMatters in so many areas of life.
Soon there will be no one left in the SNP except TRAs. That will make Sturgeon happy.
Ach well, maybe that’s the best thing – we just all ignore each other and there’s no conversation at all.
But then again, that’s what Ellis wants, isn’t it?
‘All we need to do is make sure we keep talking.’ (Stephen Hawking voice there)
Sounds easy enough, but not when you have someone in the corner farting every five minutes.
Anyway, he’ll continue to overstep the mark and get hoofed. It’s inevitable.
In the meantime, does anyone have a link for Sara Salyers at the SSRG, or other good excerpts from that event?
😉
Ian Brotherhood
Just look for the ones who post umpteen times per day.
Once a particular thread gets so far, they revert to their tired old favourites Sovereignty, Colonialism, 300 year old treaties, Conspiracy theories etc.
Anyone who disagrees with them is a Closet Unionist supporter, an SNP sympathiser or worse ie a Tory!
99% of those posting on here are Independence supporters. Maybe 80% loathe the current SNP but difficult to gauge this number accurately. It is equally difficult to put a figure on TBPHB but no higher than 10%. Their output on here however probably equates to 50% of all posts.
Nativists, Moonhowlers seem a pretty apt description to me for individuals with one track minds, who cannot or will not see any other view than their own. They are unable to explain How, When, Who for many of their erroneous and fanciful theories.
REV Stu has stipulated that if anyone ‘names’ another he/she will be banned therefore you will understand my reticence.
Hope this helps and I agree there is a problem.
I wonder if people using #SexMatters in place of preferred pronouns would start to get the message out there?
I can imagine a few heads in the Provisional TRA would probably explode. 🙂
“All of the examples you quote have precisely zero to do with self determination.”
Ellis.
Yes you are correct on that point, but it doesn’t exclude us from using a similar criteria for an indyref, and it shouldn’t. I said further up on this thread Scotland has to be extra careful on who we decide to enfranchise just for this one vote due to our current position. I think that’s a reasonable point.
Here’s a link for a SSRG Q&A session with Salyers, Hanvey, Douglas Chapman. It’s almost 90 mins long.
It’s worth noting that Ellis and other Salvo-bashers have already been attacking people like Salyers on a personal basis, dismissing them as ‘amateurs’ and ‘ex-teachers’ etc whilst completely ignoring the points they are making.
Why would that be?
Could they possibly have something worth hearing?
Decide for yourself – don’t let Ellis and his bully-boys dictate what you can or can’t watch.
link to youtube.com
@Andy Ellis 8:14pm
Agreed if only we had politicians interested in the welfare of people. Lot’s of challenges coming up from October. My definition of the Common Weal we will help family, extended family and our neighbours if everyone does that then we will be in a better place. History will comment on the aberration of Sturgeons tenure. I will never forgive the SNP politicians I used to leaflet for, their indolence made it happen.
This from Pete Wishart.
“It’s only a matter of time till the Tories start to move against the Scottish Parliament on the basis it is that which has given rise to independence sentiment. They are now consumed with removing independence as a legitimate political force.”
Consumed with removing independence, its Nicola Sturgeon that’s consumed by that, her party’s machinations since she became leader have shown that to be the case.
Countless mandates wasted, Brexit no action taken, the suppression of knowledgeable voices within the indy movement are but a few of the betrayers acts against the indy movement, along with the missing 600k.
link to twitter.com
The link I sent at 8.39 – please go to the 34min mark (approx). There is a contribution/suggestion from a female audience member which raises the roof. It’s brilliant. Please check it out.
If anyone happens to know who she is (she doesn’t appear onscreen – the video isn’t great anyway) could you please let us know?
😉
Yes you are correct on that point, but it doesn’t exclude us from using a similar criteria for an indyref, and it shouldn’t.
Hallelujah! So stop trying to use the franchise which already independent countries use for elections or voting on constiutional changes in a lame attempt to say that you and your nativist mates trying to disenfranchise up to 20% of Scots is just normal practice and what every country does. At least have the grace to admit you are wrong as a simple matter of fact.
Nothing excludes us from trying to use any criteria the majority thinks might work. Se yes, we could try your disenfranchisement plan or a variant thereof, but similarly there would be nothing to stop everyone else refusing to recognise it.
I said further up on this thread Scotland has to be extra careful on who we decide to enfranchise just for this one vote due to our current position.
You saying it, and it being true, are two very different things.
I think that’s a reasonable point.
You’re also on record as saying the folk of “Country 404” had it coming. Your credentials as someone engaged in reasonable debate are therefore not strong to begin with. Disenfranchising “x” % of Scots because you don’t think they’re Scottish enough isn’t reasonable, particularly when nobody else runs self determination referendums that way.
It’s looking increasingly likely that the so-called Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade is going to soon represent the only chance of independence available to us. And no, I don’t have a timescale, but who does?
This conflation of the trans stuff and the Indy movement is deeply sinister, and reeks of a deliberate attempt to sow division. Just as public interest and anxiety about the trans debate is starting to increase, they roll this out?
Why would you do that? It stinks.
Ellis @8.59pm.
I’ll say it again it doesn’t exclude from using similar criteria, and I’ll repeat that we need to very careful on who we enfranchise on this very important vote.
As for 404, I said they made themselves a legitimate target, and I stand by that.
@Republicofscotland 8:50pm
Add to that Sturgeons circumvention of the big six market forces in the energy market. Lesley Riddoch said it was a masterstroke. Sturgeon swept away the big six. The reality, the conference speech was high on rhetoric and non existent on delivery. Is there a National Energy company protecting the consumer interest? No there isn’t but they got the headlines.
Meanwhile record profits of multi billions for energy companies. A lesson in rhetoric over reality.
For the record, whichever strategic genius posting the blurb under the SSRG conference video on YouTube thought using “MAGA” as in Make Alba Great Again was a good idea is in utter roaster.
t’s looking increasingly likely that the so-called Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade is going to soon represent the only chance of independence available to us. And no, I don’t have a timescale, but who does?
Then we truly are fucked.
I thought you opined not that long ago it was all going to hit the fan in 4 months time? That didn’t last long!
@Hatuey 9:13pm
Ask Stu he posted the original article. And has been a consistent campaigner against the self ID legislation which we all support. Until your post where it is now a conspiracy, a cunning plan to dislodge the narrative of the Purple Heather Brigade whatever that means. Self ID won’t stand up to scrutiny. Your on the wrong side Hatuey.
Andy Ellis has been watching the SSRG conference recording?
Blimey.
I can’t be the only one who is looking forward to his analysis of the various questions and responses.
Don’t be silly, George, I’ve never been wrong in my life…
Anyway, you misunderstand what I was saying. This trans-totalitarian stuff pretty much destroys any chance of a unified Yes movement and is absolutely going to put people off voting for Indy — that’s assuming we get a vote, of course.
If, on the other hand, you assume the SNP approach will lead to nothing, and I do, the only chance we have of achieving independence now hinges on some irregular and unpredictable mass movement developing, and such a movement would probably depend on Salvo and other organisations that give emphasis to national identity, sovereignty of the people, self determination, etc.
Politics and politicians have failed us. Only people power now offers a way out of the stalemate and a way forward.
Ian Brotherhood
I hope she doesn’t mind me saying but the roof raiser at SSRG this pm was Daisy Walker. A regular Wings contributer.
I am at a loss as to why Stuart allows his blog to be taken over by AE. I took to scrolling passed him, and a few others, a long time ago. The problem is exacerbated when so many other comments are “speaking” to him and this is not always obvious right away.
I’ll say it again it doesn’t exclude from using similar criteria,…
We’re not excluded from saying we’ll disenfranchise all ginger people, or anyone called Quentin, or any males over 25 with ponytails. In the real world however there would have to be extraordinary reasons for the international community to accept Scottish independence – uniquely – justified disenfranchising up to 20% of the people resident here. Sadly for you and the other nativists, those conditions don’t exist.
I’ll repeat that we need to very careful on who we enfranchise on this very important vote.
Because we’re somehow uniquely incapable – amongst all the other countries that have voted for their independence – to manage it without disenfranchising “others”, even when countries with few of our advantages, and many more problems than us, seemed to manage it?
As for 404, I said they made themselves a legitimate target, and I stand by that.
Yup. Guilty as charged. Utterly without a moral compass.
@Hatuey 10:03 pm
I have been wrong lot’s of times in my life. And I am not special in admitting that. The only way I can see a unified Yes movement is for Sturgeon to go and the dumping of self ID. If you can’t see that then I can’t help you.
NATO-boy, that’s correct. The economy goes through the floor by Christmas, that’s inevitable. With that everything will change.
@msdid
If it’s of any help, I routinely scroll past most of the moonhowlers same shit, different day mostly. When folk directly address comments to me, I might respond. That’s kinda one of the points of BTL comment sections generally. Brotherhood’s ostentatious ignoring of me seems to be going well I see.
Doubtless Rev Stu is capable of doing as he sees fit. Historically he’s not been too keen on randoms telling him what he ought to do. Good luck with that tho! 🙂
Aye ok Andy boy
It didnae take ye long tae turn the thread into a pile of pish again did it? You and yer wee pal Chas are as much Indy minded as my auld ma is a virgin. she hud seven !
Yer a rocket
Ian. 8:04pm
I’ll be on your list too please!
I’m a crazed nativist apparently because I’m in line with international law & universally accepted international best practice on such grave & weighty decisions as constitutional changes being decided by the people who live here & not being directly placed into the hands of fuckwits here for the fluting or holiday season or on short stay with plans of returning to THEIR native country within a few years!
Andy wants an open door. Why? Has he ever actually answered?
I’m not a romantic. I just don’t zip up the back like some do. Only insane people keep asking the same question to the same people hoping for a different result next time.
Its perpetual Sec30 deadlock territory we’re trying to escape from. Imagine were finally given indyref2 only to throw it away again on the say so of outsiders again.
& I couldn’t give a shiney shite about what happened 300+ years ago BUT guess what? Sure as shite the Unionists & rootin’ tooting flutters do – so be prepared on all fronts. Each to their own. People within YES can DO as they please! Jeez, on a very post about some knobhead with a code of conduct to abide by it appears we have a few zoomers of our own with their rules we’ve ALL to abide by too or we’re howlers.
@GeorgeFerguson Good point about the Irish reunification. Exactly what we need. A team of lawyers to make it unimpeachable. Not a romantic open door policy or two MSPs debating an empty chamber on the franchise. A proper approach in line with international best practices. Not the Andy says show..
Yep, I must agree that I scroll past Andy Ellis as well, as I find his input disruptive to the general campaign for independence.
Onnyhoo, I was watching “Countryfile” tonight and when they went to the UK weather report, it was described (I paraphrase) as the weather for the whole nation.
Which nation?
Surely BBC presenters should be instructed to use the term “The UK” when they actually mean that? It’s another example of the ‘hidden propaganda’ emanating from the BBC, that pushes the idea that we are all part of the same “nation”?
@msdidi (10.06) –
It was Daisy Walker!
FFS, that is just brilliant.
Cheers aplenty!
And gaun yersel ‘Daisy’!
🙂 🙂 🙂
@Geri (10.29) –
Welcome to the Frothing Nativists Society.
We will forward your membership details, codebook and training manual in due course.
😉
It almost makes you wish Alex Salmond had given his endorsement to the other candidate who had thrust herself forward for Gillian Martins seat. You know the one . The one who describes herself as not having anything to do with politics.
Joolz 8:16pm
Regards your second example – some of us have already witnessed them comparing their appointments with Well Woman clinics. One was bragging last year they’d booked a mammogram scan. But it’s the internet. Could’ve been a wind up merchant seeking attention.
Well if Mike “wee man big dug” Small is supporting it then you KNOW it’s a solid effort to destroy actual independence.
Andy Ellis says:
31 July, 2022 at 9:18 pm
For the record, whichever strategic genius posting the blurb under the SSRG conference video on YouTube thought using “MAGA” as in Make Alba Great Again was a good idea is in utter roaster.
——-
These people would frighten off undecided voters and soft YESSERS.
Christopher Pike says:
31 July, 2022 at 11:16 pm
Andy Ellis says:
Aye ok pal – Lmao
Andy Ellis 10:10pm
It would be super helpful if you refrained from bullshit.
No one, anywhere, has trivialised the franchise into the poor examples you state.
And you are wrong, there is a justifiable need to disenfranchise voters, especially so when the natives of that country are at risk of being consumed by it’s larger neighbour/s! AND it’s recognised in International law! Those pesky natives you deride are protected under international law to maintain their territory or are they wrong too?
So lay off the bullshine. Jackanory made up bull & stick to facts.
But this has been explained to you at length before to which your retort was a Farage insult. No surprise there!
You’re beaten every turn yet you drone the same bullshit round & round hoping it will stick. It won’t.
Ian Brotherhood says:
31 July, 2022 at 8:39 pm
Here’s a link for a SSRG Q&A session with Salyers, Hanvey, Douglas Chapman. It’s almost 90 mins long.
It’s worth noting that Ellis and other Salvo-bashers have already been attacking people like Salyers on a personal basis, dismissing them as ‘amateurs’ and ‘ex-teachers’ etc whilst completely ignoring the points they are making.
Why would that be?
Could they possibly have something worth hearing?
—–
No, we’re just good at spotting charlatans. Salyers is no constitutional expert and the garbage she spouts would be quickly exposed by real legal experts (Professors McHarg and Tickell). Most people don’t pay any attention to her because they know she’s on the lunatic fringe of the movement.
Ian 10:43pm
Cheers! 😀 I’ll look forward to my welcome pack.
Also thanks for the link. I’ll be sure & listen to it.
Are those who hate Transphobes – or even just anyone whom they think of as a transphobe – guilty of a hate crime?
Great to hear Daisy Walker making such a good point, and so well.
It is perfectly clear that Sturgeon’s SNP uses the independence movement simply to get votes for itself, and for its other agenda, which are not popular, and have nothing to do with independence. That’s the whole strategy, point and purpose of any manoeuvre that they present as being a move towards independence.
Masquerading as a pro-independence Party is merely a front used by Sturgeon’s SNP for obtaining other objectives. The SNP is now a fraud. And that fraud is being perpetrated not just on genuinely pro-independence people, but also on the whole of the Scottish people.
These swindlers will use anything to get the vile things they want. Including the elimination of all the rights – and all the history – of the Scottish people. Instead of that history and these rights, they wish to impose their own perverse ideology on all Scots, including anyone who lives in Scotland but does not identify as a Scot.
They will stop at nothing to have their way, imposing what they want by every form of force, including force of law through the manipulation and corruption of the courts. Anyone with eyes to see saw it during the AS trial, and since then, it’s only getting worse and worse.
This is a totalitarian juggernaut. We have to stop it.
AS will also have to make his mind up. I have every sympathy for him, but sooner or later he will have to give up the idea that the SNP can still play a part in gaining independence. So long as it remains in the grip of NS, and her cohort, it cannot.
The problem is not just that she will never win us independence. It is even worse: if she ever did so, she would use it to destroy Scotland altogether. There can be no truck with her, or her ilk.
A quick question for any legal bods here but is self determination the same as changes to constitution?
From my understanding of the U.S.A for example – they’re not the same thing.
A right to self determination is a right to make one’s own decisions – each state can.
A state has no say on changes to the constitution if seeking to be independent. So they are two different legal terms?
Geri, where you going with this?
I refuse to help you until you tell us your pronouns…
Eh?
Its to find out the legal definition we’re speaking about here.
A right to self determination = it can be argued we have that already. We have a parliament, we have an elected FM, we hold elections, we make limited decisions.
What we don’t have is total Independence which is what we want. It’d be important not to use them synonymously.
Christopher Pike. I dunno, watching this link is thoroughly depressing. Anyone would think Chapman’s boss didn’t have several mandates at her disposal. The SNP is a fringe group FFS! What advances made to the int community? Fecking ZERO! NADA!
The usual troughers message ‘You must try harder, Boxer. Its your fault. Get yer activist arse back to the wheel & keep going convincing imiganary ppl with imaginary dates – Imelda’s shoes won’t pay themselves you know!’
Taken for mugs. Who are these imaginary voters & backers that us mere mortals have still to convince? Wasn’t that their job while pocketing over £300k per anum between the Murrel cartel?!!
‘Hi, is that Charles Michel?? Its Geri fae Wishie here! Can I meet you & the international community for a wee sit doon tae talk about Scottish Independence & it’s shyte state of affairs? No? Take it up with Truss you say? Get a mandate you say? Set a date you say? Win..u-hu. come back when it’s not honoured? Oh, OK. Ta for yer time’
Jesus fecking wept!
The lady from the audience was correct. They are barstewards. Anyone would think they’ve corn growing.
The SNP do not own the YES movement.
The SNP do not own the Scottish Independence movement.
The SNP do not own the Scottish people.
In fact the SNP are not a party of Independence anymore.
Well Tickell my McHarg if academic snobbery is not back on the agenda . If it ever left ?
So , highly intelligent lay-people are simply incapable of intensive research and perceptive , pertinent interpretations of that research . * That kind of thing * is the sole property of experts .
Get back in dem fields n keep a-pickin or massa’s gon whup ya good
wull says:
31 July, 2022 at 11:54 pm
The problem is not just that she will never win us independence. It is even worse: if she ever did so, she would use it to destroy Scotland altogether. There can be no truck with her, or her ilk.
I think the YES movement is doing exactly the right thing; essentially treating the SNP as if it didn’t exist, and advancing the YES cause by all possible means open to them.
SALVO, SSRG, ALBA, are beginning to lengthen their stride, and focus in areas where progress can be delivered.
The SNP? Two amateurish “papers” saying nothing, the Aberdeen nutters demand everybody signs up to their code of conduct or we’re banned from supporting Independence, and Sturgeon now wants an answer to the question which Sturgeon herself stopped Martin Keating’s from securing.
Sooner or later, the grassroots and voters are going to get with the program, then surely it’s curtains for the SNP.
The Plebiscite Election MUST be fought on a YES format so the mandate is binary.
Arseholes like Pete “look how much ALBA hates us” Wishart will answer for their hubris and hypocrisy, continually smearing ALBA for their share of the vote while allowing a poisonous minority interest faction with an even smaller vote to hijack and take over the SNP and Independence campaign.
Keep doing what you’re doing SALVO, SSRG, ALBA, Alex Salmond, Sara Salyers…
Who cares what you’re doing SNP? You’ve pretty much fkd it. You haven’t had two constructive ideas to rub together since 2014, but my, what a mountain of deluded shite and madness we’ve all had shovelled over us..
SNP, even if you dumped The Manchurian Betrayer over night, I think it would come too late for you. The word on the grapevine is you’re skint; a poverty in wealth to match your poverty in ambition. Take a bow, it’s all your own work.
@Geri 10.29 pm
I’m in line with international law & universally accepted international best practice on such grave & weighty decisions as constitutional changes being decided by the people who live here.
No, you aren’t in line: what you and other nativists don’t understand (or in many cases just flat out lie about) is that there is a difference historically and constitutionally between the franchises used for self determination referendums, and the franchise in use in already independent countries for elections or amendments to their existing constitutions. Even Republicofscotland has accepted his attempts to link the two things are wrong.
Virtually every self determination referendum uses residence criteria, not birth, ethnicity or “future citizenship” criteria to decide who gets a vote in a self determination referendum. Indeed, it would be a bit mental to try and use “future citizenship” criteria, because we have no idea which people currently resident would take up citizenship, and which eligible Scots born or “grandparented” people living round the world would take Scottish citizenship, as they would be entitled to do.
Of course, if you and other regressive populists were REALLY interested in fairness, you’d do what the Catalans did and compile a “new” voting register specifically for every indyref and allow Scots abroad to register to vote. You wouldn’t do that in a million years of course, because you aren’t really interested in fairness, only in skewing the result to ensure you win by excluding swathes of people you suspect might vote against you. You and others might be happy to abandon civic nationalism: most of us aren’t. Them’s the breaks!
Andy wants an open door. Why? Has he ever actually answered?
I have answered, many times and at length for the benefit of the uneducated, and those that refuse to be educated. The answer is more than adequately addressed by Rev Stu’s fisking original of the whole nativist platform reproduced above.
Nobody is advocating an open door, they’re questioning why a small minority of regressive nationalists and populists (Make Alba Great Again….really? That doessn’t sound at all Trumpist SSRG, no siree…!) are determined to disenfranchise up to 20% of Scottish residents because they don’t think we can win without abandoning civic nationalism.
@Brian
Yep, I must agree that I scroll past Andy Ellis as well, as I find his input disruptive to the general campaign for independence.
I find the input of regressive blood and soil nationalists and those who pander to them much more disruptive to the general campaign. If you and others thing using acronyms like “MAGA – Make Alba Great Again” as SSRG appears to think is OK is a recipe for winning over undecided voters you’re just as delusional as the rest of the small claque of nativist extremists in here.
Chas says:
31 July, 2022 at 8:28 pm
REV Stu has stipulated that if anyone ‘names’ another he/she will be banned therefore you will understand my reticence.
Where did he stipulate this?
There is nothing stopping you naming those you refer to as the ‘Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade.’
Do you also refer to these people as jocks?
Are they tartan haggis munchers who drink buckfast & eat deep fried mars bars & live in housing schemes?
C’mon now Chas we need more info about the ‘Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’
@Geri
No one, anywhere, has trivialised the franchise into the poor examples you state.
Yes they have. Nativist in this very place have proposed a range of disenfranchisement plans, from limiting the vote to those born in Scotland (but excluding those currently living abroad obviously, because they fear most of those are unionists), to the gamut of qualifying residence periods from 20 years down to 2 years. Most seem to favour around ten years residence.
They compound their idiocy by claiming this is justified by “similar” residence criteria being required to gain citizenship. It doesn’t matter how often it is pointed out to them that this is a false comparison, because self determination referendums don’t use citizenship criteria. A couple of referendums have imposed residence criteria of 24 months.
And you are wrong, there is a justifiable need to disenfranchise voters, especially so when the natives of that country are at risk of being consumed by it’s larger neighbour/s! AND it’s recognised in International law!
No, your view is that disenfranchisement is needed. It’s not a view shared by the movement as a whole, and it is profoundly regressive, morally wrong and probably counter productive. See Rev Stu’s twitter thread reproduced in the comments above. You obviously weren’t aware of that, but feel entitled to bang on now about the issue from a position of next to know knowledge, as your later post asking for other people’s views on the difference shows:
Q: is self determination the same as changes to constitution
A: No it isn’t. Go and look it up. Any reasonable person with an internet connection can find plenty of guidance about the franchises used for self determination referendums, and the differences between them and franchises for general elections or voting on constitutional amendments. It’s also been (extensively) discussed here, but you appear late to the game and wade in with all the certainty of someone who has strong opinions, but no ability or desire to do the actual research. Stun us wi’ another. Nativist is as nativist does.
You’re beaten every turn yet you drone the same bullshit round & round hoping it will stick. It won’t.
Not a single regressive nativist has ever beaten me in relation to this issue, or answered Rev Stu’s original demolition of what passes for their case form the twitter thread last year. They’re butt-hurt that they were and have remained a fringe group in the movement, endorsing a deeply regressive, populist platform. No referendum is in sight, as Rev Stu pointed out but the political optics of franchise stink to high heaven and will be a huge turn off for undecided voters in any future referendum.
No pro-independence party supports franchise restriction, and nobody of any note in the movement has come out in favour of it. There’s a reason for that: civic nationalism is important. Most folk want to be on the right side of history, and they have a conscience. Restricting the franchise to exclude “New Scots” because you fear they will vote the wrong way (whether your plan is to exclude 20%, 10%, 5% or whatever) doesn’t produce the kind of Scotland many of us would want to see brought about.
Luckily such a dystopian nightmarish future won’t happen, because Scots in general aren’t moonhowling regressive nativists.
Guess they deserve some credit for being willing to pander to the current target diaspora (new Scots and soft noes) in such a cheeky way.
Problem arises if they find one that’s not such a wooman, yet still takes offence at being labeled as such, and signatories are obliged to withdraw from the campaign in consequence
Note to self. Don’t forget the warning:
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
6 July, 2022 at 12:48 pm
Andy Ellis, Ruby: if either of you ever mentions the other by name (including any “clever” ways of doing so indirectly) again in any context whatsoever you’re banned. Clear? Not comment deleted, not pre-moderation, banned.
I have HAD ENOUGH of this fucking playground shit.
No mention of Chas in this warning.
Ian Brotherhood says: 8:52 pm
“If anyone happens to know who she is…”
There could be an alert reader badge recall required. 😉
But good to see something coming out of btl commentary at the tail end of this article.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
2 July, 2022 at 11:28 am
“Would you be able to define what you mean by personal attacks?”
It means personal attacks. Comments based on who someone is rather than what they said. So talking about “Ruby and her posse” would qualify, and so would “behaving like an absolute cunt”.
Is there a difference between “Ruby and her posse” & the ‘Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’?
C’mon Chas we need more info.
In case you perchance missed it, some English women beat some German women in a ball game.
link to bbc.co.uk
Rest of IngMed. ditto
All together now INGERLAAAAND…..SIEG! SIEG! SIEG!…blub, blub, blub..
It’s all they’ve got now, poor dears.
Dont mention blood and soil though, just patriots «contra mundum».
Welcome to the third world, England
Ottomanboi says:
1 August, 2022 at 8:46 am
In case you perchance missed it, some English women beat some German women in a ball game.
It was actually a good game – it makes a difference when the teams are matched well, as opposed to too many of the women’s games where a handful massacre the rest on a depressingly regular basis. Hope the Doncaster Belles send a “fk u” letter to Doncaster Rovers, who must now be regretting alienating them at the very point women’s footie in En-ger-land is likely to go supernova.
The attempts by the lagar lout crowd to appropriate the win to make up for their tendency to always trip at the finish line need shot down though. Sit down and shut up lads, this is their moment, not yours.
At least when England’s women play, their fans don’t try to emulate Boudicea/Boudica and lay waste to a hundred square miles of territory around the stadium in triumphalism or sour grapes.
If TRUSS becomes top tory she will say NOPE.
Come on Nicola, let’s have a mega constitutional spat.
Think you can handle that?
Biological Woman to Biological Woman.
MARK BOYLE
It is not the game, it is the teary, beery, tsunami of jingoism from Vox Pop. media when the English win, over the Germans and French in particular. Scots do not figure at this level.
It is the management of decline. Sport assumes an importance in inverse proportion to that rate of decline.
Scotland has a much greater concern, that of survival as a more meaningful entity than a satrapy of Greater «Ingerland».
” At least when England’s women play, their fans don’t try to emulate Boudicea/Boudica and lay waste to a hundred square miles of territory around the stadium in triumphalism or sour grapes. ”
Lol , aye Mark , at least not yet ! And , yes , it was a good , well-matched game , not a lot in it in terms of quality , both teams played well and showed plenty of commitment . England – just about – deserving the win .
Was wondering though …..given this success , if will attract the envious eyes of woomen ? Let’s hope not , it would be the ruination the admirable advance of WOMAN’S football
” It is not the game, it is the teary, beery, tsunami of jingoism from Vox Pop. media when the English win, over the Germans and French in particular.”
Yes , the downside Otto . This can be avoided though by the simple expedient of not watching/reading ANY MSM commentary 🙂
Well done England – a brilliant, fully deserved win over a very good team. No doubt the shiny royal gongs will be on the way. I’m so happy for you – really.
PS: I still want to be independent!
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
Above link is to an excellent article on Iain Lawson’s Yours For Scotland web site. In the article Mia explains very forensically the actions of the First Minister and her team these last eight years and how she has frustrated the drive to independence.
For any independence supporter it is a harrowing read. And now we are to understand that this Vichy SNP are going to pass a motion as to who can and who cannot participate in an independence campaign.
I don’t know who these people think they are. But one thing for sure is that there is a new independence movement, a real independence movement, that is growing and starting to replace the false flag agents of the British state.
Groups like SALVO, SSRG, together with parties like Alba and a new vibrant, honest and growing blog sphere are all getting the message out to an independence community that will supplant the SNP.
Anyway, read this article. It is an excellent critique of how Sturgeon has not helped but rather hindered independence.
That’s the next 100yrs of commentary & replays sorted.
I wonder how long it’ll be until the TRAs want a spot.
” I wonder how long it’ll be until the TRAs want a spot. ” . I wondered the same , above , Geri . I suspect , not long . They’ve already made inroads to – less high-profile / lucrative – sports and I think it’s inevitable they’ll be turning their attention to the ” Beautiful Game ” with it’s rich financial rewards
Been very busy lately. And just catching up,
I tried linking into YoursforScotland, got the first few seconds of it then was cut of, is it on youtube at all, anyone know?
On a different note Who decides How many civic Scots get to vote, As far as I am aware there was no civic SCOTS THAT VOTED US INTO THE TREATY,
Just a handful of greedy men whom had been ousted of of office in Scotland BEFORE the Treaty was signed by the native Scots.
Rephrase the last sentence for clarity.
The Scottish parliament ceased to exist in Scotland before the treaty with England was signed.
The nation of Scots had chased them out of office.
With no sitting Scottish parliament.in Scotland 1707.
The Scots acted Sovereign in 1707, with self determination and rid themselves of the the Barons and Nobles that sat in the in office,
The monarch then or now is not Sovereign above the Scots.
Whom did England Sign a Treaty WITH?
Some private profiteers chased out of the Scottish parliament office.
We have no papers on parchment or other wise that enters the Scots into a treaty with England.
England has no papers on parchment or other wise that enters Scots into a treaty with England.
What England holds is a Treaty with the men whom were private individuals since they had been chased out of the Scottish parliament.
@James Che
Now that you have apparently clarified your “hot take” on how the Treaties of Union are not valid, can you please explain:
A) which subject matter experts in Scottish history, English history, legal or constitutional history agree with your assessments?; and m
B) assuming anyone else on earth agrees with your assessment, how will that translate in to concrete action, how will this action happen, and who will be carrying the actions out?
Ellis has had plenty of time to watch the SSRG link from last night and listen to what Daisy Walker had to say.
Sadly, he’s ignoring me so can someone else please ask him for his response?
😉
I ignore Romano brits thinking like romano brits.
King of the Twitter Block Option says we have to discuss and win hearts with Respect.
What a well paid and pensioned clown indeed.
We can see where this is all going..nowhere. But the MPs and MSPs will keep winning their seats at the trough for a good 10-15 years at least under the “Bad Westminster” laments and yet again opportunity not lost, but never really there in the first place.
Shouldnt be too long before Nicola starts getting compared to Tony Blair for longevity?..just another 5 years of humdrum action but nice book reviews should do it!
The point is no one has any evidence to state other wise, I have asked specifically for proof on the details, that Scots ACTUALLY entered into a treaty, this has not been provided.
Experts are bought and payed for usually by the government funding system, educated through government systems.
But even these given the benifit of the doubt have not discussed why the nobles and barons that where chased out of office of the Scottish parliament by the Scots, before the treaty was signed lack the knowledge gap of what happens to the treaty if there was no sitting Scottish parliament
Not the Ghost version, that relies on supposition and heresay ( later on )that all Scots entered into a treaty with england,
Not that one that is faux, built on propaganda.
It is not for Scots to excuse the treaty, it is up to Westminsters to proof it did not sign a treaty with……Ex members….. of the Scottish parliament in 1707.
@ Ian Brotherhood says:
1 August, 2022 at 2:18 pm
Ellis has had plenty of time to watch the SSRG link from last night and listen to what Daisy Walker had to say.
Sadly, he’s ignoring me so can someone else please ask him for his response?
?
In fairness to Andy, as he is well aware, I always scroll past his comments here, and I intend to keep doing so … however, I feel it’s only fair he is allowed to do the same to me, even in audio/video format.
PS glad folk liked it. Seems to have struck a nerve.
That’s interesting, James Che. So they signed the dirty deal with a bunch of private citizens?
I’m not quite sure how this works? Brotherhood ostentatiously flounces that he intends to ignore me in perpetuity, but wants detailed reports on whether I’ve watched some YouTube video he’s interested in and wants to know what my analysis of a video I haven’t had the time to watch yet is, because he thinks everyone is like him and has nothing better to do?
It’s like watching an obsessive schoolgirl whingeing.
For someone who is ignoring me, he certainly devotes an awful lot of his engagement in here to either stalking me or asking others to do it on his behalf. That doesn’t seem very…..balanced. Does he have any friends who could perhaps stage some kind of intervention?
Hi Daisy, I very much liked your use of the word “bastards”. The rest was okay too.
I’m not entirely comfortable with the idea that we should or must convince the rest of the UK that we would be good neighbours. The best approach, I think, would be to lead by example by building a fairer and more equitable society that made the rest look crap. That’s probably something that worries them.
Anyway, good to see the SSRG generating attention and support. Everything seems to move much too slowly but I think we can say there is definitely movement now and a growing groundswell of enthusiasm for an alternative to Sturgeon’s “strategy”.
The timing of all this is excellent too. The Indy movement is like a coiled spring, preparing to expand and release all its beautiful nationalist energy when the time is right.
We won’t need a referendum and that’s why I don’t really give a fuck about the franchise debate. People power trumps everything.
Victors write the history books, they also make up the laws.
Once that is internalized the perspective on «events», past and present significantly changes.
The legalists and certain historians would have you believe there is a necessary. transcendent quality about both.
A one sided treaty is a bad treaty, a one sided contract is a bad contract even if your signature is appended.
The legalists and textbook literalists infecting nationalist politics, the handmaids of dull conformity, will be the death of the independence project.
For them, the Gordian knot has to be slowly teased and unravelled.
We should live so long!
I’m reading that all the European countries are applying concessions on petrol and diesel.
Only Finland, who has no oil is slightly more expensive than here.
Thank goodness we as Scots are self sufficient or things would be difficult here?
As reading about how pre Brexit the U.K. passport had the top grading for being accepted
without question in almost every country.
Thanks to Tory Brexit it’s 6th now.
Different rules for the U.K. travelling to France as to travelling to Spain.
Cue the PM and Reece Mogg extolling the virtues no one can see outside of money laundering circles or off shore tax avoidance.
For those interested, Alba have announced the special guests appearing with Alex Salmond at the Wee Alba Book event on Saturday 6th August at the Waterloo Place Hotel, Edinburgh. They will be:
Owen Dudley Edwards – Irish Historian and author of “Our Nations and Nationalism”, and
Marjorie Ellis Thomson – Former Chair of CND.
I am reliably informed the event is filling up fast.
Hatuey,
3:23pm..
APPARENTLY,
The more study of this pseudo treaty from beginning to end the more we hear screams from a certain group,
Don’t look at it, its old, it doesn’t matter any more. Wot you gonna do about it anyway,
I’ve been in various societies – they usually get ruined by people drawing up rules everyone else should obey. Then there’s a big argument about what the rules should be, then everyone falls out and half leave to go form their own club.
And, of course, very little of the society’s aims get worked on in the meantime.
Here we are doing this to the whole of Scotland. Before we can campaign, lets spend a year or two arguing over what rules we must have in place first.
Utterly pathetic.
Someone mentioned this t’other day but there was no link.
Check it out for a wee bit of comic relief – women pranking their menfolk.
link to youtube.com
From their code:
In my experience of running clubs (one was an educational charity), people turn up because they are interested in what the club does (in my case, talks about space and astronomy, doing rocketry launches and so on), not in learning ‘governance policies’.
This is only going to turn people away from independence, if they have to first take an exam to prove they understand best practice policies in governance.
This represents the end of the YES movement when it’s more concerned about ‘club rules’ than its own aims (independence).
I did resign from a party branch committee in non suspect times, years ago, EXACTLY for this very reason.
Even some rank and file members of that now fully toxic party pretended that they could decide who had the right to say something, what did they have the right to say, when to say it and how, even if they weren’t party members.
These cretins pretended that they were the only valid outlet and vector for Scottish Independence. Fully delusional, deeply narcissistic and astonishingly out of their minds.
It was so abhorrent, dictatorial and disgusting that I could not even stay in the same room with these neo-fascists, and stormed out of the room slamming the door.
You have been warned: if we don’t stop this cabal of delinquents, Scottish Independence is completely FCUK’d for a century.
“Yes they have. Nativist in this very place have proposed a range of disenfranchisement plans, from limiting the vote to those born in Scotland ”
If you are born in Scotland in my opinion you should automatically qualify for a vote on a constitutional matter. If you’ve moved to Scotland from elsewhere I’d say that a minimum requirement in residency should be required, other countries do this on voting matters, and although Scots would be voting to leave or stay in the union, Scots are sovereign in their own country so it seems only appropriate that Scots design the criteria for an independence vote.
This of course won’t go down well with Westminster, but in reality Westminster should play no part in setting the criteria for an indyref nor should they be consulted on it for permission to hold one in the first place. The Scottish government need only inform them out of courtesy, as Scots did not give up their sovereignty when Scotland joined the union.
It would be and should be quite simple via documentation to show the international community that Scots are sovereign, and ergo prove that they do not need the consent of a foreign government to decide if they wish to leave this union or not.
On Topic for once…
Can anyone recall voting to democratically elect any of those tossers to implement the rules on what we can and can’t say or do with regard to campaigning for Indy?
It’s like a poundshop World Economic Forum or “International Community” dictating to us again.
Robert Louis says:
31 July, 2022 at 7:28 am
“This really reeks of student politics. The SNP have quite literally become the judean people’s front.”
Surely you mean “The peoples’ front of Judea”.
That other lot are shite!
Can anyone recall voting to democratically elect any of those tossers to implement the rules on what we can and can’t say or do with regard to campaigning for Indy?
No, definitely not, which is why they should be told in no uncertain terms to sling their hooks.
Incidentally, who will be electing the members of the proposed Convention of Estates?
Hey, I thought you were meant to be ignoring me…
Someone posted this link further up the thread and it points out beautifully that Sturgeon has betrayed us on holding an indyref, and that she has over the past seven years done everything in her powers to stall independence.
link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com
Re my 5.39pm comment.
None of it will come to fruition whilst Sturgeon is FM, and none of her spineless and gutless SNP MSPs and MPs look likely to stand up for Scotland by defying her. In reality the nuSNP is no longer the party of Scottish independence, many indy supporters haven’t realised this yet, but in time they will, we will get our chance again to leave this union, but not through the nuSNP, unless of course when Sturgeon goes there’s some sort of great change within the party, and it purges the those who would put their own agenda ahead of the welfare of Scotland and Scots.
This may never happen, and the nuSNP will ultimately go the way of BLiS which is now insignificant in Scottish politics, I would advise those who really want an independent Scotland to vote for the real independence party Alba, though it will take time for Alba to rise, maybe Salvo and SSRG will hasten our exit here’s hoping.
What the feck is this about?
Michael Russel:
I don’t need his permission to debate or campaign in a democracy.
please people, give it up your barking at the moon.
Scotland = clown world
Stu I don’t know how you keep going
The country is lost,accept it and move on.
The future is in the East, move now while you still can.
Hatuey.
The only signatures on the faux treaty of the union with England is that of private citizens a small group of people, kicked out of the Scottish parliament,
They were ( past )representatives of the Scottish parliament, and I have no doubt the English parliament knew this.
For they sent a army to the Scottish borders.
To enforce a treaty with the…. Ex Scottish parliament. Whom were not in a position to ACT as the Scottish parliament in 1707.
Nor was the monarchy down south, whom acting as overseer to the treaty, sovereign in Scotland in 1707.
The whole treaty of the union, is a contrived, stage managed, fabricated and concocted piece of work that ended up for all Englands parliaments efforts not to have captured all the Scots.
We experience England’s Parliament recognising this in 1707 when they discussed wether to give the nation of Scots a vote to join the treaty,
They viewed the nation of Scots in Scotland as being a separate ethnic group ( entity )from the private citizens group that were about to sign the Treaty, ( see uk parliament site 2022.) whom then decided not to accept the Scottish signature or X mark to Join,
I can easily understand how most of Scotland are ignorant to these facts, and why the political English parliament continued the hoax and feigned a treaty with the obsolete Scottish Parliament.
Having said all that, it that treaty with the private citizen may hold for them,
Even here though we see a get out clause, for Scots remaining uncaptured and sovereign with the claim of right having been inserted into the treaty by private citizens and the English parliament once again recognising that fact by ratifying that the Scots as a nation are not truely captured.
It is the same feigned hoax that the Parliament of Westminster and NS are playing out today.
@ Gregory Beekman at 6:09 pm
Re. It is about ensuring the highest quality of inclusive debate, not about excluding anyone.
That will be handy as we will all be included in the campaigning debate with M. Horsebox Russell about the future of NHS Scotland in an Indy Scotland.
link to craigmurray.org.uk
Hey, I thought you were meant to be ignoring me…
Is this the new in house whereby you don’t include the name of the poster you are quoting/addressing the comment to?
Are posters under threat of being banned if they even mention names of other posters.
If you are born in Scotland in my opinion you should automatically qualify for a vote on a constitutional matter.
OK; so you’re enfranchising the 800,000 Scots born folk living elsewhere in the UK then? And those elsewhere in the diaspora? Will you be advocating for a new electoral register then, so these folk can register for a “Scots abroad” vote? That’s what the Generalitat did in Catalonia, and it’s the logical concomitant of the nativist narrative.
If ethnicity and blood ties are the criteria, surely it would be wrong to exclude Scots born folk abroad just because they happened to be working elsewhere, but would like to have a Scottish passport after independence?
If you’ve moved to Scotland from elsewhere I’d say that a minimum requirement in residency should be required, other countries do this on voting matters,….
Other ALREADY INDEPENDENT countries do it to decide who can gain citizenship or vote on constitutional amendments. Self determination referendums DO NOT generally apply minimum residency criteria at all, and the few which have it has been 24 months. You already admitted up-thread that your argument is a false equivalence, yet you still keep banging your head off the nativist wall.
Scots are sovereign in their own country so it seems only appropriate that Scots design the criteria for an independence vote
Scots are doing it, and did it in 2012. The fact you want to disenfranchise a random proportion of Scots so you can queer the pitch in your favour doesn’t make it appropriate. All people are sovereign in their own countries. The historical and constitutional precedent for self determination referendums is to use a residence based franchise, not an ethnic, or “future presumed citizenship” franchise.
This of course won’t go down well with Westminster, but in reality Westminster should play no part in setting the criteria for an indyref nor should they be consulted on it for permission to hold one in the first place.
I’m all in favour of a Scottish government with a mandate telling Westminster to GTF if it tries to impose unacceptable conditions on self determination. The Edinburgh Agreement amounted to a cave in by Westminster and gave Salmond virtually everything he asked for. Self determination is a right for any people, but it’s not automatic or unlimited, particularly in non colonial situations.
Of course we shouldn’t accept that we need anyone’s permission, but if you think it increases our chances of gaining independence if we declare UDI, or have to do it in a conflict situation with Westminster, I reckon you’re in for a disappointment.
Anyhoo…we’ll soon know if there’s any point even trying to hold a referendum withing the constraints of the devolutionary Scottish parliament. If the UK SC says not, then we need a plan B, like plebiscitary elections.
It would be and should be quite simple via documentation to show the international community that Scots are sovereign,…
If it’s that simple, isn’t it passing strange nobody has done it before now? The thing is, the international community – at least in the abstract – accepts the basic principle that every people is sovereign.
There is however a fairly big leap from that to them recognising the independence of anyone claiming it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. To leave the current union, demonstrating a clear majority of support is the only sensible starting point.
Michael Russel:
It is about ensuring the highest quality of inclusive debate, not about excluding anyone.
Does demanding ‘the highest quality of inclusive debate’ not exclude people?
What about folk with ‘tourettes’ and those who have difficulty stringing a sentence together will they be excluded?
Do you have to have been part of your university debating team to qualify for inclusion?
What about dress code? Would a collar & tie be required?
This the new in house style of not include the name of the poster you are quoting is very confusing.
Definitely not the way to have ‘the highest quality of inclusive debates’
“yet you still keep banging your head off the nativist wall.”
Firstly lets get one thing crystal clear, the only nativists are those of the English government that are hellbent on denying democracy to Scots, got that! Good, remember it the next time you feel the need to type the nativist or blood and soil nationalism slur.
“If ethnicity and blood ties are the criteria, surely it would be wrong to exclude Scots born folk abroad just because they happened to be working elsewhere, but would like to have a Scottish passport after independence?”
Interesting point but if you haven’t resided in Scotland for the minimum period whatever that turns out to be, then no, what would it matter to those who want a Scottish passport, they’d still want one after the constitutional vote.
“Scots are doing it, and did it in 2012. The fact you want to disenfranchise a random proportion of Scots so you can queer the pitch in your favour doesn’t make it appropriate. All people are sovereign in their own countries. The historical and constitutional precedent for self determination referendums is to use a residence based franchise, not an ethnic, or “future presumed citizenship” franchise.”
You call it disenfranchising I call it safeguarding, on the actual indyref I’d hope we use a residency based one, but one with a residents based time franchise, as already sovereign nations do, there are no laws to say that we must follow historical precedents, as long as its a fair franchise
” but it’s not automatic or unlimited, particularly in non colonial situations.
Of course we shouldn’t accept that we need anyone’s permission, but if you think it increases our chances of gaining independence if we declare UDI, or have to do it in a conflict situation with Westminster, I reckon you’re in for a disappointment.”
This is where the Claim of Right comes in, it, in my opinion supercedes Westminster when it comes to the will of the Scottish people.
UDI in my opinion in our case would only be a vehicle to allow a indyref to be held, UDI, is the counterpart to The Claim of Right if one isn’t used to force an indyref (democracy denying Westminster) then the other could be used.
“If it’s that simple, isn’t it passing strange nobody has done it before now? The thing is, the international community – at least in the abstract – accepts the basic principle that every people is sovereign.
There is however a fairly big leap from that to them recognising the independence of anyone claiming it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.”
In my opinion it is that simple, only now is the Claim of Right coming to the forefront Westminster nor the Britnat media, or the unionist parties at Holyrood want to talk about it or even let on that it exists, add that our current FM has done and will continue to do everything in her powers to stall independence.
Scotland isn’t a region of England’s its a country in a political union with another country via a treaty, Scots ancestors were canny enough to pen the Claim of Right which can allow us to return to our independent nation status if the people of Scotland so wish.
What’s stopping us from leaving this union, in a word Sturgeon.
Gregory Beekman @6.09pm.
Yes I read that myself, Mike Russell has fallen way down the ladder of credibility under the tenure of Sturgeon as FM, his demise is a characterisation of the SNPs MPs and MSPs overall, they’ve backed their leaders horrible agenda, which doesn’t include what we elected them for, to push for the dissolution of the union. As nasty and odious as the Tories are even they know when to ditch a maniacal leader, the fact that the SNP MPs and MSPs have stayed quiet on the machinations of Sturgeon says quite a lot about their characters.
This.
“It is about ensuring the highest quality of inclusive debate, not about excluding anyone.”
Is all about attempting to exclude anyone, political party or group that doesn’t fall into line with their agenda, sadly independence doesn’t even come into it if you ask me, it never has, going by the last seven years of Sturgeon at the helm, its just a carrot dangled in the faces of the indy masses to win votes.
We mustn’t vote SNP at the next GE a SNP vote is a wasted vote, we MUST vote for the Alba party the real party of Scottish independence, and women’s rights in Scotland.
Ian Brotherhood says:
1 August, 2022 at 5:20 pm
Someone mentioned this t’other day but there was no link.
Check it out for a wee bit of comic relief – women pranking their menfolk.
There was a manager at an old work place connected to a certain SNP high ranker whom every charity “dress down Friday” without fail came in wearing the same red and black checked shirt, blue jeans and vomit shade Timberland boots combo for that fully fledged “Past Caring Middle Aged Dad Who Still Dresses The Same Way He Did When He Was Twelve” look.
Every – Single – Time.
Then one Friday his entire – and I mean entire team all came in wearing the exact same outfit as well – all twenty of them. Now everyone may have had the ubiquitous blue jeans, but the checked shirt and especially the boots (which aren’t exactly cheap) had to have been bought especially for the occasion … quite some effort for a prank.
Of course we all howled with laughter, even more so when what was going on went completely over the heads of the rest of the management team. But the best bit of all was when the Chief Executive Officer called everyone together for an impromptu announcment meeting (ie. he was looking for an excuse to goof off and not do any work as much as everyone else, as tends to happen on “dress down” days).
As his blah blah went on, eyes sweeping the room, it became clear from the way his expression changed, ers and ums creeping in, and a puzzled tone to his voice which didn’t match the grandiose announcement that the company was going to do telly ads (on a crappy cable channels watched by semi-comatosed geriatrics – suffice to say it was the biggest waste of money since the Third Lanark 1967/68 season ticket) … that he’d noticed what appeared to have escaped the notice of the rest of management (except of course one!), and half wanted to ask out loud what twenty one of his staff were all identically dressed.
Come the next dress down day, a certain somebody wore a different shirt … once.
Ruby @6:48
Yes, spot on! Missed that bit about ‘highest quality’.
It’s all nonsense speak, nothing to do with indy at all. But, of course, they’ve got nothing better to do because indy ain’t happening. So they spend their time on waffly nonsense that means nothing.
Republicofscotland @7:20
Yes, agree with your points.
SNP MSPs should oust Sturgeon – she’s ruined the party and the movement.
Their conduct code is trying to shut the rest of us down.
Yes – Alba all the way! We need Salmond back as FM!!
” …. M. Horsebox Russell …. ” HA !
Sounds like an extra in a ” Western ” film . Was he in A FISTFUK OF MANDATES , or am I getting him confused with P. Carthorse Wishart ? No , haud oan , Carthorse was in A FISTFUL OF MANDATES ( listed in credits as ” Drunk tramp at bar ” ) ; Horsebox was in FOR A FEW MANDATES MORE ( Unlisted ). Or was it the other way round ? Actually , think they each had parts in both those classics .
Shame their acting careers never really took off . From ” Horse Operas ” to ” Dope Operas ” , helluva fall
As I said yesterday, it does not take too long, in the posts on any article Stu produces, for the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade to pile in on their favourite subject.
‘What is that’ I hear you ask.
It is 300 year old treaties that the sane and sensible are bored to death with.
Of course, if you ask the questions’-how will the treaties be disbanded? Who disbands them? Will the electorate have any say? Silence ensues.
Realism and practicalities are not on speaking terms with BPHB.
Does the Code of Conduct for Indy campaigning cover diligent fiscal auditing and accountability practices with regard to how the 600k Indy fund will be spent…
“Of course, if you ask the questions’-how will the treaties be disbanded? Who disbands them? Will the electorate have any say? Silence ensues.”
Oh don’t be so stupid, the same process would apply as what was intended if yes had won the 2014 indyref, representatives and lawyers from both governments would sit down and thrash out the details.
There’s no room for decent ideas to help the people of Scotland in this cost of living crises at the carefully staged managed SNP conference, in Aberdeen on October.
“A MOTION calling on the SNP to “creatively” use devolved tax powers to help tackle the cost-of-living crisis has been excluded from the draft conference agenda.
The SNP’s annual conference will be held in October in Aberdeen, and the party’s trade union group had put forward a motion on tax powers for consideration.
It called for the Scottish Government to increase taxes on the country’s highest earners and replace council tax.
The SNP pledged to scrap council tax ahead of the 2007 Holyrood elections, but Nicola Sturgeon said in April there were still no plans to do so – despite saying the local tax was not “fair or progressive”.”
link to 12ft.io
There’s at least one Green politician in this world with a bit of grit, and she’s not at Holyrood, as if a Green at Holyrood had any gumption.
“AN Australian senator has been forced to retake her oath after pledging allegiance to the “colonialist Queen” during a swearing-in ceremony.
Lidia Thorpe, who is an indigenous member of Australia’s Upper House, raised a clenched fist while reciting the altered oath.
Reading aloud from a printed card, she said: “I sovereign, Lidia Thorpe, do solemnly and sincerely swear that I will be faithful and I bear true allegiance to the colonising her majesty the Queen.”
The move, which saw Thorpe add the word “colonising” to the original phrasing, ruffled feathers among her colleagues, some of whom were quick to call on the Green Party senator to rectify her error.”
link to 12ft.io
Meanwhile, the island of Pladda off the coast of Arran, is up for sale for the price of a Glasgow flat £350k, will the Scottish government purchase it, or the local council, or will it fall into (like everything else in Scotland) the hands of some explotative businessperson or group, or will it end up as a retirement or second home for Southern incomers who knows?
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thenational.scot%2Fnews%2F20593225.pladda-island-off-arran-goes-sale—costs-glasgow-flat%2F
Oh don’t be so stupid, the same process would apply as what was intended if yes had won the 2014 indyref, representatives and lawyers from both governments would sit down and thrash out the details.
It’s not a stupid question though, it’s pretty basic stuff. The “cunning plans for indy” brigade never explain how we get from here, to this “sitting down and thrashing out the details” stage.
None of us expect #indyref2 to be delivered by the SNP, so it’s incumbent on those proposing these novel routes to indy to demonstrate how they work. So far they’re coming up empty. It does seem strange considering we keep being assured that it will *just happen* via some unelected Convention of Estates.
So who sits in this Convention? How are they appointed? Who is eligible? How are the paid, if at all? Who is advising them? Who is funding all of this when it happens?
Even if – and it seems to me a fairly big if – this is all stood up and receives widespread support, how long it is going to take? Months? Years? When this Convention reaches decisions, how does it demonstrate to Scots, the Westminster government they’ll be negotiating with, and the international community, that they as a Convention are now the authentic voice and representative of the Scottish people?
Only when that’s demonstrated beyond any reasonable dispute, will these negotiations you talk about be possible.
Until and unless the above questions are answered, it still seems to me that a commitment to plebiscitary elections is far more likely to produce independence in the short to medium term.
The Brigadoon People’s Front stuff may be feasible, but it’s still likely to take longer.
I thought we were supposed to be in a hurry?
‘The Travelling Morris Dance Troupe’ complaining again about ‘The Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade’
They complain about being bored and also about no response to their questions.
They don’t want to read anything about ‘the Act of Union’
What to do to keep ‘The Travelling Morris Dance Troupe’ happy?
Anyone know what they are interesting in?
What about ‘how to build your own private swimming pool if you local public baths close down due to high fuel costs:
link to 12ft.io
link to metro.co.uk
Can’t afford your own private swimming pool never mind there’s always ‘Wild Swimming’ all you need is a speedo and a woolly bobble hat.