Venus and Mars
In 2014, it was women who stopped Scotland becoming independent.
But it was still a man’s fault, of course. Those of us who were around at the time, while many of the SNP’s earnest young activists of today were still squeezing their spots, will recall a multitude of media articles on how it was apparently the fairer sex’s personal antipathy to Alex Salmond that was responsible for the No camp’s victory.
And who knows, maybe that was true and maybe it wasn’t. We have no idea. But what we do know is that you can’t have it both ways.
Because the actual latest poll – a Survation one released tonight – tells another story.
While it’s the 19th in a row to record a Yes lead (a wafer-thin 51/49), it shows that the male Yes vote has flipped from a six-point lead in 2014 to a six-point deficit in 2021. If “the Sturgeon factor” has “turned the female vote around”, it seems it’s done the same thing to the male vote, but unfortunately in the opposite direction.
So when can we expect the articles about Nicola Sturgeon’s “man problem”?
Because just trading male voters for female ones isn’t much use – they both count the same, whatever certain people might wish or have you believe – and 51/49 is a little bit too close for comfort in our book.
So why don’t men like Nicola Sturgeon? Asking for a couple of million friends.
I’ve deleted the first two comments on this post for being cretinous (one from each “side”). Don’t make me do it to any more.
No doubt we’ll be told it’s because of ingrained misogyny.
Honestly expect to see members of the Oberkommando Der Wokemacht tell us that men shouldn’t be allowed to vote and “men aren’t part of the future of an independent Scotland”.
Good luck getting food to your plate, fixing broken machinery and building things without that unfashionable, sneered-at, “problematic” person, the working-class Scottish male.
Alternatively, sex of 1st Minister is entirely irrelevant and something else is at play here, like I dunno Brexit & Covid. Both increase poverty and women are affected disproportionately more than men. Who gives a feck who’s in charge when your kids are starving?
A further, horrible thought occurs – who exactly are these “women”?
James Kelly is lauding this as an amazing result for the independence movement, but this poll is of course a bit of a letdown.
51% with don’t knows excluded will not win a second referendum. Not a hope in hell.
And the polls will DEFINITELY be worse one the salmond inquiry has concluded. No doubt about it.
There’s something odd with the first paragraph, Rev. On the front page it’s, “Those of us who were around at the time will recall numerous media articles on how it was apparently their antipathy to Alex Salmond that was responsible” but when you click through to the full article it’s disappeared and starts at “But it was a man’s fault”.
I’m a woman and I can’t stomach to even look at Sturgeon, I much preferred Alex Salmond as leader and I’d still prefer him today as opposed to anyone else.
Oh and I did vote yes in 2014, sadly I doubt I’ll get the chance to do so again, hopefully I’m wrong.
And for the record my daughters, sisters and female friends all feel the same now and if we go into the May election with her still at the helm they’ve lost 15 votes throughout my family alone, it was 11 not long ago.
All the people who i know that don’t like Sturgeon, are women. Admittedly, they would be unlikely to vote Yes too, but that shows the McWoke cult that things aren’t as simple as they’d like to believe.
One word.Trust. It was there,now it’s gone. Completely.
Alex Salmond never had “A woman problem”. Women just tend, slightly, statistically, to be a little more cautious than men are, less argumentative. They were clearly more cautious about a big step like independence, but not massively so. However, I’d wager most women’s attitude towards other women who appear nice but turn out to be untrustworthy or backstabbers will be a hell of a lot more vicious than it would to a man. Most women will assume male politicians are not to be trusted. A woman who gains their trust then betrays it is absolute toast.
@barrie gadget Why do some women dislike Alex Salmond?
Because they are misandrists?
Can the media not spin the surveys in a variety of ways. There was quite well-known Edinburgh Uni research done into voting choices after the 2014 referendum (published 2015 I think) and it showed the following:
No voters were most influenced by their Britishness (could be spun as British nationalism was a big influence for no voters);
Non Scots’ born voters tipped the balance in favour of No (could be spun as English and/or foreigners denied Scotland their independence).
I get the point that you can’t have it both ways such as in this case with the gender breakdown, but the “can’t have it both ways” rule doesn’t apply to the North British media. A pefect example is that supporting independence is a denial of our (modern Scots) guilt in the horrible crimes of the Empire, while support for the UK leads to no such charges of guilt by association and you’re all ok. I mean on that particular theme, I’d have thought it would be your duty to destroy the UK if you feel bad about imperialism, but apparently not. Trying to destroy the UK is hypocrisy or something.
Being a man ( with the normal appendages, no frock) I don’t find it strange for this to be true.
when I look at all the happenings that are taking place in and around this parliament, it’s no wonder that we (older males)are disgusted by the the lies and distortion by a small number of activists, some of whom were removed recently and are now getting back throught the back door.
There is no way I’ll be voting for SNP in May, I have to accept that the system will have to be broken and rebuilt from scratch.
It means that I will not see indy in my lifetime, Heartbreaking, I know.
My friends keep telling me that there are a lot of good people at the top of SNP, my reply? If there were they would have stuck their heads above the parapet before now.
what makes me very angry is that the majority of the grassroots are, like myself, passionate about getting it done on their lifes, I just hope that my children get to see what we have all fought for over many years.
I wish I was internet saavy enough to dig in to who these are in order for me to name and shame, I wouldn’t care if I was jailed it would be worth it to get the whole house to start getting back in order.
What is worrying is that despite no effective opposition in Scotland and major events (Brexit / COVID) the polls remain stubbornly split.
The SNP might be in for a bit of a shock come May.
Cretinous? Harsh
Infantile, juvenile, puerile.. guilty!
Is She exudes an atmosphere of the elitist misandry in vogue, unlike my old school kiddy on misogyny ok?
Sorry
“There’s something odd with the first paragraph, Rev. On the front page it’s, “Those of us who were around at the time will recall numerous media articles on how it was apparently their antipathy to Alex Salmond that was responsible” but when you click through to the full article it’s disappeared and starts at “But it was a man’s fault”.”
Yes. I edit things.
“white privilege” . I am certain that’s what the privately educated millionaire humza yusuf will be shouting.
Sturgeon has lost all the goodwill and trust we had in her. It is now time to find out who is willing to go down with her ship.
“James Kelly is lauding this as an amazing result for the independence movement, but this poll is of course a bit of a letdown.
51% with don’t knows excluded will not win a second referendum. Not a hope in hell.”
Indeed. It’s very rare for the radical-change option not to suffer a bit of a “fearty effect” on polling day. I wouldn’t be happy unless we we started that morning at 55% minimum. However, as he notes, other polling companies are tending to return higher Yes numbers, so let’s see a few more and judge the overall trend. I expect one tomorrow.
I did laugh at this bit, though:
“I genuinely thought there was a risk of ending up with a narrow No lead or a 50 / 50 split. I’m thrilled to say that hasn’t happened.”
James knows better than most that in polling terms, 51/49 IS “a 50/50 split”. Any 1- or 2-point lead for either side in a poll is a statistical tie.
All this deranged madness about the ‘Let’s Get Salmond’ attack by the current leadership of the SNP, (and their ridiculous attempts of trying to cover up their incompetence). I’ve been wondering, Why? Why did they start this campaign against him?
Is this a case of ‘a woman scorned’ maybe? Did something happen between our current FM and Alex? Did she want something to happen and maybe she was knocked back, and then spilled out some lies to hubby?
I just can’t believe what the hell is going on. I should say I can believe because you Stu have kept us all up to date, but I don’t understand how we got here. Help?
“Why did they start this campaign against him?
Is this a case of ‘a woman scorned’ maybe?”
No. It was a case of “a woman paranoid that he might come back onto the political scene”.
Rev, for anyone even loosely following your blog, it’s clear that you believe a Sturgeon resignation to be a near certainty this year.
If you were a betting man, in which single month would you guess the resignation will come?
So, last time I checked, I was a woman.
I have no issues whatsoever with Alex Salmond and favoured him over our present FM. When he speaks about Indy, it’s from the heart. No rhetoric like the present.
The females in my family and friends group feel the very same. If the present FM is in power at the next election, SNP will lose our votes. Doesn’t take a genius to work out there is a few rotten apples in the barrel.
@crisiscult says:
18 January, 2021 at 8:23 pm
“Can the media not spin the surveys in a variety of ways.”
Not only the media; political parties spin the stats.
Using the same set of data, you can produce multiple outcomes / findings depending on what the customer wants.
The vaccination stats are a good example. One common argument is that “England is 10x Scotland population”. Fair enough but then you change the figures to percentages and it turns the argument on it’s head.
Percentages are commonly used. “We’ve increased the number of payments by 200%”. Sounds good until you discover the starting figure is 2, but the headline figure is what catches the eye of most people.
She reminds me of a provincial headmistress lording it over her teachers, all too scared to cross her. She always seems angry, not constructively ‘get things done’ angry but more ‘wait till I get you home’ angry. She’s portrayed as a strategist but she’s a tactician at best, at worst a reactive spinner of events. Her body language is a turn off. She often looks like she’s working herself up for a glasgow kiss. And she’s dishonest. She reeks of it. I know that had 2014 gone a different way she might not be leader today – but regardless she is – and if she was the first leader of an independant Scotland, with only a fledgling opposition (SNP would romp the first election) and all the apparatus of the state at her disposal.. So yes, I’m not a fan. But I appear to be massively outnumbered.
Sounds to me like there’s been a concerted propaganda war against Salmond ever since he had the audacity to hold and indyref in 2014, with the hope that his character would be so blackened that he’d never be allowed to return to Scottish politics again, never mind hold a second indyref.
I don’t believe that there is a man problem or a woman problem for that matter, its been artificially created and used by the BritNat media to further an agenda.
That’s a fair analysis. Except I would still vote for Independence now, despite my serious reservations about NS. But at this election I won’t vote for the SNP and NS is part of that with her daft policies but more importantly they are devolutionists. The question shouldn’t be dependent on who is leader at the time but on the overall case for Independence. After all political leaders are temporary. Any woman that says all men have to do is decide what tie to wear in the morning is all you need to know about her understanding and empathy towards men. And there are many more examples of that misandrist tendency within her.
Too male, pale and stale to comment.
I’m really surprised at that poll, given the amount of women Ms Sturgeon and her social justice warrior stance re men in frocks. No female or male come to that,will be voting for her corrupt government this time round.
P.S. I never had a problem with Alex Salmond, but I do have a problem with his protege.
*given the amount of women she’s pissed off.
Too angry to type properly.
“the male Yes vote has flipped from a six-point lead in 2014 to a six-point deficit in 2021.”
Put in those terms, the female flipped from a 14-point deficit to a 10-point lead in the same period. Assuming the population is split 50-50, that would be an acceptable trade.
But women do outnumber men slightly in Scotland, further increasing the value of this tradeoff from a Yes perspective.
If you are correct that we can’t have it both ways, I’d rather win Indy with a majority of women than lose a referendum again with a majority of men.
Seeing as we’re in Scotland… For clarity one has to asks if the women % figure is actually based on eh, like the proper oldskool definition of women, or the newskool definition which also includes those with beardz n cocks n bawz.
How can you be sure that folk have changed their opinion at all? Maybe it’s just that the 5% were “men” who now identify as “women”.
Re Harassment and Complaints Committee ,
The Committee will next meet on Tuesday 19 January at 10:15am when it will consider its work programme in private. This meeting will be held virtually.
Public papers for tomorrow’s meeting ,
.
https://www.parliament.scot/HarassmentComplaintsCommittee/Meeting%20Papers/SGHHC-S5-21-2-A_Agenda.pdf
It could be quite an interesting meeting tomorrow with all the evidence that’s been published so far . I’d love to be a fly on the wall at the meeting , LOL .
“If you were a betting man, in which single month would you guess the resignation will come?”
March would be most likely now. Which would be nightmarish.
One minor thing, Survation have listed the referendum figures as 52/48 rather than the 51/49 stated by scotgoespop.
I suspect there are a bunch of factors at play. Sturgeon may well be a factor. Men were more likely to be pro-Brexit, and fewer Brexit voters have stayed or become Yessers than Remainers, so that’s another. Boris Johnson is repulsive to a lot of women in a way he probably isn’t to most men (not that many of us blokes don’t find him pretty repulsive too) and he’s certainly a factor in what’s happening now. Poverty hits women harder than men, especially during the Covid-19 crisis, and it’s clear that Westminster isn’t helping, so that’s probably part of it as well.
As with all things in politics, no one factor explains it all. I’m sure Sturgeon has encouraged some women to change their mind. I know at least one woman (my mum) who is now significantly less interested in independence because of Sturgeon though, and it has nothing to do with the Salmond affair. She was furious about SNP MPs voting to change abortion law for Northern Ireland while Stormont wasn’t sitting.
That was a straightforward breach of the devolution settlement in NI, and my mum felt the lack of principle was outrageous. She’s strongly pro-life, so obviously the specific act bothered her, but she found it pretty hypocritical to criticise Westminster for “bulldozing devolution” then to do exactly the same when it suited her own political goals.
The people of Ireland know the DUP’s position and they’ve kept voting for them, so it’s simply not the role of Westminster MPs to rewrite the law rather than demand that new elections be called so that devolution could work there the way it was meant to.
In general though, I think it’s hard to give too much of the credit to Sturgeon given that, by her own admission, she has been studiously avoiding any campaigning or even preparations for independence.
Well they can blame 2014 on who/whatever they like because they cheated us and I don’t know why it’s taboo to say that.
The Referendum was lost because of some c 800,000 postal votes and the overwhelming majority of folk not born in Scotland voting No.
Hi since you’ve used a screenshot of me when the tweet was sent it referred to the Santa comres poll which was the latest at the time of sending the tweet. Don’t get upset
Stu Campbell said:
” It was a case of “a woman paranoid that he might come back onto the political scene”.
I’d like to believe Sturgeon was paranoid about Alex Salmond because Alex Salmond had come to the conclusion that indyref gradualism was a failed policy and wanted to obtain indy via plebiscite election.
I think the key point here is that there is no story in either instance. Salmond turning woman off independence is bullshit, Sturgeon turning men off of indy is also pish. I suppose that Ruth Davidson turned men off of Conservatism, Kezia Dugdale turned us off Social democracy. Nonsense.
This sort of stuff pisses me off. Not Stu’s article, but just the fact all the liberals, who claim to be for equality and inclusiveness, seem so intent on putting everyone into boxes and groups, and pointing out how different and alien those groups are to each other.
Judge people as individuals. There is no toxic masculinity, there is no unified female voting block etc etc. Journos really need to start talking about actual issues that people care about again.
Well done wings for pointing out Hypocrisy however, as always
There is still time to make it a plebiscite election. If only we could remove the Murrell’s in time…
@cath.
“ A woman who gains their trust then betrays it is absolute toast.”
You’ve nailed it. In my experience it’s the women I know who are much preferring the leadership of Alex. This has grown since the facts re the witch hunt of Alex and indy dodging are coming to the fore. Meantime I’m surprised that some men are more inclined to wheesht for indy cos we are “ahead in the polls” (like the glory hunters in football) and slag of Alex as being some relic from the past. Admittedly this cohort is those more involved in the indy movement. I suspect for the wider public the above stats are reflective.
However what really, really pisses women off is the fact that that show trial and the spinning of the media which has amplified it will result in less women (and indeed some men) being even more reluctant to report such crimes to the police. That’s why there must be a judge lead inquiry to expose it for the political stitch up it was.
Aye. And women really, really don’t like women sticking knives into their best mate’s back – whether that mate is male or female. They won’t forgive that for all the baby boxes in China.
Sturgeon isxwY past the sell by date, but, getting rid of her is verybdifficuot. She will hang on forcasclondvas possible doing maximum damage the the indy cause.
She has taken the biggest open goal in history and is still aiming for the corner flag.
I despise her
Damn predictive text
There’s been quite a lot of coverage on Indy polls, but not any I’ve seen on electoral support for (this) SNP. Just curious if anyone knows, as they no longer mean the same.
I suspect voting intention data would show quite a rise for ‘don’t know’ (i.e. wouldn’t dream of voting for ANY of this pitiful lot)
Sturgeon has got a human problem.
Still at it aren’t they. I’m a woman in my 60’s and absolutely support Alex Salmond. I don’t give a flying one about my pension. Just want what is ours now. Alex has been shafted and common sense tells us that. NS needs to go and so does the first man.
And so does the woo, woo fecking nonsense. We require Independence end of
Meanwhile, over at Charlotte Street Partners and the growth commission:
“In a move which has been described as “simply wrong”, a lobbying firm has hired a sitting Tory peer as a consulting partner. The appointment of Ian Duncan (Lord Duncan of Springbank) by Charlotte Street Partners, announced last week, has come under heavy fire from industry bodies. Duncan, a former Scotland Office minister and Tory MEP for Scotland, now serves as Deputy Speaker of the House of Lords.”
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19019854.charlotte-street-partners-urged-rethink-appointment-tory-lord-ian-duncan/
I need some definitions before I can answer you Rev. What is a man & what is a woman?
(Dont answer).
Must admit, the rampant manhating that Sturgeon has facilitated – indeed encouraged – is one of the most disturbing aspects of her whole reign of error and terror and stupidity. Course I would say that, I’m a man, the patriarchy, oppression, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, still much more to do, Salmond is guilty of something somewhere, blah blah blah..
(Spits)
I like Alex Salmond very much – I’ve met him on three occasions and each time found him approachable and friendly. I’ve shaken Sturgeon’s hand and noticed that she didn’t look me in the eye and also seemed a wee bit reticent to be photographed beside our Yes adorned vehicle. I wasn’t that keen when she first took over but she grew on me. However I feel totally and utterly let down by her over independence and bloody angry at her plans to deny me my sex based rights and erase the word “woman” from the dictionary. If Holyrood 2021 isn’t a plebiscite election then I will not be voting SNP in the constituency. I only hope there will be another independence party candidate standing for the list – obviously I won’t be voting Green either. So here is one woman who won’t be changing from Yes to No but who won’t be voting SNP and, at 62, no longer believes that Indy will happen in my lifetime. No pension for another four years, no indy, wonder I’m f*****g depressed.
Helen Yates @8:13
That’s like saying ‘ I can’t stand that we woman in the supermarket and if she’s still there come May I’ll not be buying anything from that supermarket and I don’t care if there is no another supermarket within hundreds of miles, she’s got what I want but I’m not going to give her the satisfaction of serving me even if it is to make a better life for me and my family.
Listen to what your saying, Nicola Sturgeon and the wee Supermarket wummin will be dead but we’ll be independent and our children thriving. Independence is forever
PS I don’t like her either but she’s driving the only bus going where I want to go so I’ll be on it for my family and my country
The difference in the polls then, in 2014, and the difference in the polls now, according to sex, is down to the fact that women, once they have made up their minds, are far less likely to change them – contrary to popular myth. It’s the psychology.
That is generally accepted as being because any form of social change is brutal towards women, and they know, instinctively, it will be, so that, when they believe in something, they really believe in it and are prepared to suffer the consequences. Ordinarily, they are to be found in the middle ground because, ordinarily, they are rarely considered when decisions are made. This need not be deliberate, but women are, generally speaking, an afterthought in most policy areas.
In 2014, the economic consequences of independence were hotly debated, and there is little doubt that the argument was won by the Unionists of all hues. Far more than males, females are at the bottom of the heap: lower pay; part-time employment; more dependent on benefits. Tell people that they are going to be worse off, and you are effectively telling women: everyone will be worse off, but you’ll be even more worse off.
So, when you have a situation which is damaging to women either way – as with Brexit and no independence versus independence and a few years of economic strictures – they will make a clear, rational choice to follow their heads and their hearts together. This was also the case in Ireland before the Black and Tans were brought in. Women outweighed men in antipathy towards independence. When the Black and Tans were brought in and they started destroying homes, smacking women with rifle butts, hitting their children, dragging away their husbands and sons, they changed their opinion and were vociferous for independence. The women had become directly involved through the actions of the other side.
So with Brexit. It has nothing to do with misandry or with disliking Alex Salmond. A whole swathe of women, many of them with no axe to grind, probably apolitical, suddenly found themselves deprived of their pension; others were told that they would receive no benefit for a third child unless they admitted that that child was conceived by rape. These and a host of other Tory wheezes alienated women. It has far less to do with what has changed in the independence side as with what the Tories have done and promise to do to women in the future. Sheer rational choice now makes independence the better choice. Of the two sexes, women tend to err on the side of the rational.
Crisiscult: that is an important difference between women No voters and many other NO voters: the innate Britishness or Englishness of the latter. The reasons for voting NO were not the same. Many women who were British/English might well have voted NO for that reason, but that is not the same as voting NO solely because they were women, so that skews the figures for the two sexes. There was a definite bias towards Unionism, rather than towards feminism, as being the driver there. They were women and British/English, ergo NO voters. Taking men and women together for the YES vote, it would have won had the rUK NO vote (male and female) not backed up the Scottish Unionist (male and female) NO vote. In numbers, the Scottish Unionist and rUK NO votes (both male and female) together outweighed the YES vote (both male and female).
I very much doubt if pure misandry has anything to do with Nicola Sturgeon’s SNPG either. The party has lost many women because of the pseudo ‘wokist’ capture which has allowed women to be marginalized in favour of men who come under the trans umbrella which is now so huge that any man who says he is a woman, whatever his motive, will be called ‘trans’. That is decidedly misogynistic, not misandrist.
It never ceases to amaze me how perceptions drive a narrative instead of facts. The UN studies show that, in societies where women’s rights are suppressed, they tend towards being backward, poor, repressive and static; in societies where women’s rights are to the fore, those societies tend towards being liberal, richer (albeit with seams of poverty), more egalitarian and more mobile. That is not a hard and fast rule, but it does tend to be that way.
I’d like to believe that some of the anti-Sturgeon vote is to do with the Mr Salmond debacle.
BUT most gains made in the past three years must be a gift from WM, the Conservative Party, Brexit and Boris Johnson.
*Wee Wummin*
So, charlotte street partners, the economic bullwork of the SNP are recruiting a Tory lord..
Re BJ @ 9.45
The big problem is that the bus she is driving is not headed for independence. It may say that on the destination board but the driver and her entourage are being well paid for simply driving and never want to get to the stated destination. Better catch a bus operated by a different bus company.
If we assume the rise in Yes is due to Boris then the rise in women supporting independence could be due to him, So you’d expect to find Tories more supported by men rather than women in national polls.
And that is the case in the last Survation poll in December
Conservatives are 31% but only 28% women compared to 35% men
Lorna Campbell:
“I very much doubt if pure misandry has anything to do with Nicola Sturgeon’s SNPG either. The party has lost many women because of the pseudo ‘wokist’ capture which has allowed women to be marginalized in favour of men who come under the trans umbrella which is now so huge that any man who says he is a woman, whatever his motive, will be called ‘trans’. That is decidedly misogynistic, not misandrist.”
You are not a man, and clearly cannot feel, or do not care aboot, the hatred towards men that Sturgeon (Hirst, Salmond, Murray and others are just the most well-known disgusting cases of her catty anonymous legal revenge against detractors) and her alphabet cur cabal exude. Sturgeon has emboldened shitty fashionable manhating in politics and the media. So there is definitely a misandry at play here. You always make things aboot women, though, dismissing male concerns; this article was aboot men, not women. Your mindset is actually microcosmic of how some men now feel under this horrible manifestation of the SNP, that we’re ignored, sidelined, and hated and mocked.
I think that both misandry and confused, self-defeating misogyny on Sturgeon’s part through some of her idiotic sub-American intersectionalist policies are both at play here. Room for plenty of hatred towards anybody not on her side, no matter what their sex. It’s always her way or the motorway. Or the false accusations of ‘misogyny’ and bullshit intimidating court cases. And I am not attacking you, or calling you names, but you need to take a wider overview of things here. I can see your side of things. But it’s not just women who are always affected by dictatorial governmental edicts.
Also wanted to say that women tend to have a slow burn whereas men tend to have an immediate anger response to threatening/overbearing stimuli. For centuries, women who killed their spouses were burned, hanged or otherwise disposed of, regardless of the fact that they might have been suffered decades of physical and mental abuse
In Scotland, capable homicide was not extended to such women until fairly recently, although men who, for example, had suffered from a nagging wife and killed her, was extended that mercy because the law (made by men for men) understood the quick anger response of males and the slower tolerance level.
For women, after years of abuse, to kill a spouse, might be said to be a rational response to their situation: If I don’t kill him, he will kill me. The law cannot condone cold-hearted violence whatever the circumstances, so it gets round it by saying that the killing was done when the woman snapped, women having, psychologically, a much longer ‘suffering fuse’/tolerance level.
Whatever, it was a step forward in the treatment of women’s crimes which showed compassion and understanding of the innate psychological differences between men and women. Who says sex doesn’t matter? Males and females respond to all kinds of stimuli differently on a psychological level, and politics and economics are no exception. Almost always, the female response will be rational, based on a weighing up on the scales of balance.
I don’t post too often on these threads but I can’t help but be struck by that old sayung that there are lies, damned lies and statistics. Looking at the Twitter from Marcus Carslaw shows what I mean. No mention of the turnaround with the men. I think the answer is that we should stop differentiating between “men” and “women” because, after all sex and gender mean the same thing don’t they?
Look at the polls…
Who is to say, that if another woman was SNP leader, the numbers wouldnt be even higher!!! Not just more pro-Yes women, but more pro-Yes men and therefore overall more Yes voters. Clearly Boris & Brexit would be beneficial for Yes numbers whoever was in charge. Sturgeon has benefitted from that irrsspective of her own performance. If we could ‘run a parallel universe’ since 2016, and Yes was now at say 65% with a Cherry or a Whiteford, what would the Sturgeonistas say to that?
Lorna Campbell – ‘For women, after years of abuse, to kill a spouse, might be said to be a rational response to their situation: If I don’t kill him, he will kill me.’
‘Almost always, the female response will be rational, based on a weighing up on the scales of balance.’
Don’t know what murdering your spouse had to do with anything here, but I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the rose-tinted way you view women. Some of the craziest, least rational people I have known were women, and anybody not economical with the truth will know that to be true. That’s the long and short of it.
With Brexit and Boris being the big drivers of the rise in Yes I don’t see what Sturgeon has to do with it. I bet women are doing worse during Brexit and with Boris who is much more of a turnoff for women than men.
Framing this in terms of just First ministers is far too simplistic an analysis Rev. Women might have been turned off by Alex but that doesn’t mean they were all attracted to Yes by Sturgeon.
He was the reason I voted yes. I was a firm NO pre 2014. The reason was he made me THINK. See once you think..
Sturgeon I’m afraid is being a treacherous piece of shit. Her sex is largely irrelevant. Male or female the humankind that would stick a knife into another human to pull the entrails out is an animal – and Sturgeon is it.
In the animal kingdom the female species can be more vicious than the male but it can cut either way.
What is despicable is the treachery hidden behind a mask, a facade, an illusion. Sexuality has nothing to do with it – only prejudice and the vicious scheming to wreak harm of the most vile kind.
willie, I totally agree.
“I tell everyone that I am in love with feminine beauty in all its aspects. The fact is I become bored in the company of women who have no sexual presence, no matter how intelligent they may be. I think I dislike such women because their condition indicates their own fear of themselves and consequently of the world around them.”
Michael Moorcock – “The Brothel in Rosenstrasse”
Kenny says
Your comments were insulting to me. You suggest that it’s a physical thing …….on another level. Yes he’s revolting but I’m not into revolting men I’m in to politics same as you and of course Independence ffs
He was the reason I voted yes. I was a firm NO pre 2014. The reason was he made me THINK. See once you think.
Yes, the last referendum was fantastic for doing that, and bringing people up as well. The SNP went from a tiny party to a huge movement, with loads of different voices, really engaging people at local and grassroots level. And when those people were engaged, they were also empowered and allowed to speak, debate etc. Salmond left a party which had a massive amount of talent.
The contrast with the SNP now where thought and debate is disallowed and no voices are being brought forward is stark. We’ve had a year of daily briefings during which loads of ministers and public health people could have been given a very specific public role: nothing, Nicola every day even when there was practically no covid for months. There’s practically no talent now when you look at the party, and they’re allowing an awful bunch of nobodies to speak for them on social media.
Meanwhile we’re told Salmond, Cherry, Wings, Commonweal etc are all on the “wrong” side, demonised and silenced. It’s just bizarre frankly.
Willie – I agree too.
What I remember is Salmond going out of his way to praise Sturgeon early-on in her leadership of the party. He did that on BBC and Channel 4 and praise from someone like Salmond got her off to a flying start.
This seems appropriate at this time…
A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly against the city. But the ("Tractor" - Ed) moves among those within the gates freely, her sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the ("Tractor" - Ed) appears no ("Tractor" - Ed); she speaks in the accents familiar to her victims, and she wears their face and their garments, and she appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. She rots the soul of a nation; she works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city; she infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared.
In 2016 Scotland overwhelmingly voted to remain in the EU. We know this because Mrs. Murrell has spent the last four years telling everyone.
In 2014, Scotland rejected independence.
But did they really?
Remember Project Fear? That if Scotland voted for independence, it would leave the EU.
I’m coming to a different viewpoint. Voters didn’t reject independence in 2014. For all I know, 100% of them may have been in favour but going by the 2016 result, it seems clear to me that in 2014, Scottish people had bought into Project Fear and rejected being forced out of the EU.
And that’s why in 2016, Mrs. Murrell fucked up big time by driving around in a big bus with ‘Stop Brexit’ written on the side rather than saying ‘Right. We’re out of the EU, let’s get independence sorted out.’
And since 2016, I’ve despised that woman, regardless of what’s been coming out in the wash since.
We are talking about voting for independence for our country not a political party yet the % swings are about personalities. I despair.
I know several NO voting women who think Nicola is doing a brilliant job and they are impressed by her – but will they vote for her? These are women who couldn’t stand AS, and who almost to a woman think that it is incredible that he ‘got off’ the charges in court.
I also know plenty of YES voting men who cannot stand Nicola, some of whom think an AS return would be a big mistake, nothing personal, just time to move on.
No explanation and can’t understand it personally.
This is going to ruin the SNP and the independence movement. There’s no two ways about it we are finished. People when they find out are going to be so angry and trust in all politicians will go. May will probably be a low turnout and independence will be dead. It will take a long time to build up faith and support in the independence movement again. I don’t know what we can do.
Elmac,
Agreed, but I think it’s worse than that. I think the bus has had it’s innards removed and the driver is behind the wheel making engine noises.
Polls polls polls
Look at the polls. Aye, look at them, so wit.
Polls mean shit, only a basic indication of what might happen. What happens on voting day is how good your arguments are and who turns out to vote on the day,whether it be an election or a referendum.
Trouble is the longer this goes on ,like another parliament or two to 2028-2029 and we get another vote on indy, they’ll be fuck all left worth having.
Thems the choices folks. Fight now or lose the country in 8 years time irrespective of who’s arse sits on the FM seat.
The dream I had months ago was 2029 still sticks in my mind. It’s either my death or the death of our country. Cos mark my words Westminster will take what’s left of our resources for themselves, anything left will not be worth having.
Your choice.
“Hi since you’ve used a screenshot of me when the tweet was sent it referred to the Santa comres poll which was the latest at the time of sending the tweet. Don’t get upset”
You seem to be under the impression that this post is about you or your tweet. Breaking: it isn’t. You’re a bit of local colour to illustrate an attitude, not a chronology.
Dan; a stoater of a text! Trouble is how to condense – beardz’ncocks’nbaws- into a descriptive term?
Any proposals readers?
There is lots off stuff down here about how slow Scotland is at rolling out the vaccine compared to England. A narratives, which if true, is potentially very damaging for SG, NS and the SNP.
MY generation grew up with a clear distinction of what was right or wrong. Minor peccadillos were tolerated but truth was paramount. Sure, some people lied, robbed, murdered even, as they have always done throughout history, but they were rare exceptions. Nowadays lying in particular appears to be commonplace, particularly in those that aspire to govern us. Trump in the USA, De Pfeffel in Westminster, and regrettably Sturgeon here at home.
I do not know what upbringing Sturgeon had but I doubt her parents would have encouraged lying, back stabbing or corruption as the way to get on in life. Alex Salmond has none of these characteristics. He is not perfect, as he would be the first to admit, but he has a basic honesty and loyalty which is lacking in the current SNP leadership. It is not AS who created the split in the SNP but Sturgeon herself. The attempt to discredit AS and have him jailed on the back of a lying criminal conspiracy will be her legacy. The truth will out eventually and she will be damned for it and, if there is any justice in this world, she and others will go to jail for it. In the meantime her government continues to lie and obfuscate to derail a feeble parliamentary enquiry and to kick the goal of independence down the road forever.
The facts are plain. There will never be another Scottish referendum under the Murrells. They will do whatever they can to prevent this and preserve their little lucrative fiefdom here in Scotland. They are the political equivalent of Covid19, sucking the lifeblood out of our country. There seems little prospect of any prominent SNP big hitters calling her out before the next HR election which leaves most of us here in a quandary. Do you hold your nose and vote for them in the hope that Sturgeon will have a damascene moment and see the error of her ways or, more plausibly, assume the leopard will never change its spots and vote for an alternative. In my opinion the current SNP has run out of road and there is no reasonable case to believe in their promises any longer. Unless the SNP is cleaned out in the very short term we need to bite the bullet now and start again with such as the ISP even if that means a period of unionist control at Holyrood and the dangers that would bring. We are deluding ourselves by putting off the inevitable. In the meantime we should do what we can to force a change at the heart of the SNP. The Murrells love cash so stop paying subscriptions, stop all donations to the SNP, and stop all fund raising activities. Make it plain that this is temporary and normal service will be resumed when they are gone.
-Wee Chid-
For what it’s worth I’ve met both Salmond and Sturgeon, and although I know politicians’ charm can be a bit contrived, I found him engaging, warm and witty, and her frankly a little rude. A nephew of mine once served her dinner and says she never said please or thank you- a really bad trait in my book!
-Tricia Young-
That’s one reason I am convinced support for Sturgeon is “a mile wide and an inch deep”. Posh folk in the suburbs might fawn about how she can bloviate that “I will not hesitate to take necessary decisions” in a press conference, but one mention of higher taxes and they’ll be voting Tory. Has she **really** convinced people to support independence, or does she just seem less loathsome than Johnson?
-Lorna Campbell-
Astonishingly, I think it’s still the law that, if a man walks in on his wife cheating on him and kills her in a fit of rage, that’s culpable homicide rather than murder. The common-law standard is “how would a reasonable **man** feel if he saw his **wife** cheating on him”. In parliamentary candidate selection, candidates are often asked, “what bill would you introduce if elected”; mine would be the abolition of that legal defence.
I console myself by knowing I will be voting for one sure Independence party at the election. The initials are not SNP
Nearly a decade of ‘Salmond Accused ‘ headlines are bound to have had a deep effect on a large % of the population Meg.
As soon as 2014 was likely, the attacks on Eck started.
Unsubtle stuff mostly to start with.
Yoons howling.
Having your ‘own side’, people you think you know slinging the mud…
Exposure of the plotters will wipe many slates clean.
Just after the 2014 referendum the MSM were lamenting the fact that part of the Scottish electorate had been radicalised to use their word. If you stop and think about the meaning of radicalisation and the Prevent strategy for example you can understand my contempt for that description. More accurately the Scottish electorate was politically engaged and less likely to accept the dictats and falsehoods of all politicians. The SNP are now in the hot seat. They reaped the benefits before, now they are the ones that are being challenged. Observe their social media posts lashing out at dissenters in an indeterminate way. The leadership of NS in a nutshell. She has two to three weeks left in power and that has nothing to do with her sex but everything to do with illegality.
@James Carroll says:
18 January, 2021 at 9:30 pm
“There is still time to make it a plebiscite election. If only we could remove the Murrell’s in time…”
Ever get the feeling that might be why the “Taskforce” has been announced, to try and water down the calls for a plebiscite?
Sensibledave @ 1047 pm
Is there? This is Scotland. Don’t give a fuck what you think. You do your thing,we’ll do ours.
Can you ask HanCOCK if he has dispatched all our percentage allocation of vaccine north of the wall yet? And I mean ALL OF IT.
Tonight I filled in a poll from Opinium. It too was obviously about Independence. Well the first half was about attitudes to UK parties and leaders but given it included Sarwar, Baillie, Lennon I wonder if it might have come from Labour, or someone wanting to gaze in a Labour crystal ball.
The second half asked some nuanced questions intended (I think) to work out which factors I thought more important: e.g. a liking for Brexit, v an acceptance it had happened but wanting it reversed somehow. A party that was strong on ‘constitution’ or strong on managing the economy on behalf of people’s wellbeing. Or strong on the union v independence: I can’t remember the wording of the last of these, but that’s what it came down to. Oh and there was strong leadership, versus weaker but more sympathetic leadership.
Any word on the grapevine who it might be for?
@ Wee Chid at 9:44 pm
Slightly O/T What I noticed in 2015 there was constant talk over the WASPI campaign, but there was nothing happening the whole thing,as I saw it, was to create positions within the party for themselves that and massaging their own ego.
They were vocal in the branch but nowhere else
I saw it as complete disaster the SNP wouldn’t act with others, which I thought was due to the membership figures going through the roof. Again the ego
Sensibledave says:
18 January, 2021 at 10:47 pm
There is lots off stuff down here about how slow Scotland is at rolling out the vaccine compared to England. A narratives, which if true, is potentially very damaging for SG, NS and the SNP.
Westminster press releases and the mainstream media are trying to turn vaccination into a competition to see who can piss higher up a wall. I’ll be charitable: Sensibledave is naive. Sensibledave is buying into a Conservative narrative. The alternative is Sensibledave is a sockpuppet.
Plotting his political comeback, Sarwar, who lost his Glasgow Central Westminster seat in May, contacted parliamentarians, councillors and activists with an invite to hear his “view on the future of the Labour Party and Scotland”.
Guests were treated to a free dinner at the Riverside Palace, one of Scotland’s leading banqueting venues which can cater for up to 500 people and boasts of its high degree of elegance and grandeur. The move raised eyebrows amongst senior party figures, who believe it to be a pitch to re-position himself at Scottish Labour’s top table.
Wary of yet another failure Sarwar ruled out a head-to-head election battle with the SNP as his route back to Scottish politics preferring the safety first approach getting himself onto Glasgow’s regional list, which now must be based on a male and female taking the top two slots.
https://caltonjock.com/2014/08/31/the-sarwar-dynasty-the-chalice-is-mine-says-anas/
There have been some surprising posts on this thread concerning misogyny and – a relatively new term to me – misandry.
Usually I am in agreement with Lorna Campbell but I have to demur from her comment that there are psychological differences between males and females, unless she means to refine this to mean that the differences are due to the way that males and females are brought up. I don’t believe that the differences are so great but it is difficult, I admit, to extrapolate from the tangle of societal drivers, what is actually natural to either sex and therefore immutable.
Until we have a society which does not impose fixed ideas from previous generations on what is acceptable behaviour from those who are male or female then we will never actually know what is ‘natural’. Failing that, you can only use the yardstick of your own experience. My first and most significant identity is as a human being, which is not a matter of choice but a matter of fact. I can do no other. (As a child I would rather have been an eagle – just didn’t fancy having to rend prey apart with talons.)
However, as a child, growing up female and liking adventurous rough-and-tumble I was aware that ‘society’ didn’t altogether approve. Impinging on my understanding was the subtly conveyed judgement of society that it wasn’t ‘nice’ for girls to enjoy that kind of play and to come home from a day’s play looking as though I had just survived an explosion. I was given dolls like other girls but mine ended up looking like casualties of the same
Oh no..didn’t mean to send that post. I was actually about to delete and my muddled fingers sent instead. Please ignore. I’m sure you will all politely comply.
Ian Blackford praising Dani Garavelli on twitter.
I’m finished with the current lot.
.
Stu.,
At the risk of you muddddrrrinng me with hammers, might I present a lateral thought?
You reply about Sturgeon leaving office…
“March would be most likely now. Which would be nightmarish.
It obviously would not be good as there is almost too little time to resurrect the REAL SNP by installing/annointing a new leader (non Sturgeonite, no am Woke
But I wager the likely new leader would be a disciple of the Sturgeonite McWokeist clique. Probably old reliable boring bank manager John Swinney.
The McWoke SNP High Command would still bring in the Orwellian Hate Bill and kill off free speech.
The McWoke SNP High Command would still bring in the Gender Reform Bill so anyone who upset one of the passive/aggressive/FreddieKrugerAngry translobby would have their four limbs severed and head put on a pike as the renewal of cultural heritage from olden years is reborn.
Sorry but I REFUSE to vote for a party that has brought those rancid white papers/bills anywhere near Holyrood
Then we have Sturgeon’s replacement dodging IndyRef2.
So Stu., we are stuffed, unles Alex Salmond comes back and heads up the Inependent list party.
WHEREAS IF THE SNP LOST IN MAY AND A MINORITY UNIONIST COALTION GAINED CONTROL OF HOLYROOD, WE WOULD BE RID OF STURGEON FOR SURE.
WE WOULD BE RID OF HUMZA’S MINGING 1984 ORWELIAN FAKE HATE BILL.
WE WOULD BE RID OF THE MCWOKE GENDER AGENDA.
Bonus to that, the SNP would have had a clear out of Alyn Smyth and Angus Robertson rules.
The REAL SNP would have had the Sturgeonite Cabal properly exorcised.
We would be able to reclaim the REAL SNP from June 2021 and either get it in proper shape to secure IndyRef2 on bounceback for the next Holyrood election.
Or if the vote was tight, just like Alex Salmomd beat Jack Mcconnell, but the other way around and with a Lab/Lib/Conservative coalition holding on by one or two seats, it is entirely possible for the REAL SNP to regain control in a year or two. But with all the Strugeonite nightmare coven banished thanks to the Unnuonisys.
Of course this carries risks, but as things stand Stuart, and your thesis of Nicola Sturgeon’s Indy Carrot sketch is true, what have we got to lose?
.
Apologies, last post was uploaded before proof reading. Finger slipped into the green “submit comment” button.
Bob Mack 10:55
I’ll be joining you Bob!
Never again the X in the box for either the gone-native benchwarmers at Westminster, or their cozy-devolutionist cousins at Holyrood – content to see an innocent man jailed whilst carving out their Woke-utiopia, and to Hell with everything the SNP once stood for which didn’t need justified with a “Task Force” of 1!
I’ll console myself in the fact that if Yoons do form a coalition at Holyrood, thanks in part to my spoiled ballot, IndyRef2 was never going to happen under the current SNP anyway, and Westminster was always going to screw Scotland over, even with the SNP at Holyrood, as history, both recent (Brexit) and not so recent, clearly demonstrates.
In short, thanks to the troughers, the carpetbaggers, the wokerati and the Murrells, it would appear that we’re f****d every which way.
One would expect that when Police Scotland were handed down a brief for investigating/ fishing for dirt on Eck, and whilst setting up the Salmond Squad, you’re duty to impartially, without fear or favour, would include some due diligence on the conspiracy claimed. A lot of public money was going to be spent!
Obviously something went wrong, as the unfolding documentary evidence suggests that there might be something in,
“Judge Lord Pentland subsequently said that the government’s actions had been “unlawful in respect that they were procedurally unfair” and had been “tainted with apparent bias”
For starters.
…….
A chat with say McKinnon for example, might have saved an awfy lot of wasted effort and money. And tears.
Interesting to see so many comments with the same thoughts as mine. I can`t stomach the thought of the Unionists gaining control at Holyrood, but the alternative of the SNP gaining an outright majority in 2021 fills me with even greater fear.
A dreadful thought for someone who wants Scottish independence, but do I vote for the candidate most likely to stop the SNP? In my constituency it is tight enough for that to be a possibility.
My previous thought of not voting SNP, but voting green was undone by the Greens support for the dreadful trans gender legislation. So no second vote for the Greens this time.
The SNP needs cleared out of that there is no doubt. A better standard of opposition at Holyrood would have either turfed the SNP out already or would be about to, thus the SNP would have improved its game. Perhaps, a wake up call is need this time. Equally, can you imagine the shock in both the upper echelons of the SNP and those SG civil servants who are lying every time they appear at the Holyrood Inquiry of they suddenly realised that the no longer have the ability to suppress the truth regarding how Alex Salmond ended up in a court room fighting for his liberty. No longer able to hide what legal advice the government were given. With every passing day, there seems ever more reasons to vote to stop the SNP winning my local sea than to vote to help them win it.
Sturgeon’s Covid Crown is slipping.
People are pissed off with lockdowns.
People are pissed off with closed schools.
People are pissed off with closed pubs.
The slip in the polls is no coincidence.
This Virus is here for the rest of 2021.
Sturgeon has ran out of fresh ideas.
The woman is under tremendous pressure.
Let’s hope the nervous breakdown is just around the corner and that the evil little bastard who occupies Bute House with her wee weirdo man, will be evicted in time for us to get on with voting for a Party who will fight for our Independence.
@AndyBhoy
The SNP needs to lose, the Phoenix can only rise out of fire.
We will have to vote them down.
But I think the SNP may be unsaveable, like others I feel our only hope is if Alex Salmond returns to lead and unite the List parties. He will have been vindicated and played well he could get enough votes for his party to be the opposition to the SNP and next election would replace them, it’s a long game but at least we will have a chance, there is no chance with the SNP
Jings. Kevin McKenna putting the boot in again, and I’m sad to say I have to agree with him again.
Independence Taskforce: SNP dreams up a new way to dupe supporters
https://archive.is/Rzk0y
Where are all the Ginger Duggers when you need them?
They seem to have all the answers.
I wish they would tell me if Sturgeon is going to make this election in May a vote for Scottish Independence or not?
Or is she going to tell us it will give her the mandate to ask Boris for the fictional Section 30, which will allow us to hold a Referendum on Scottish Independence?
The Duggers have all the answers, but when Stu puts up threads that are too awkward for the Sturgeonistas to answer, they suddenly disappear from our screens.
Venus and Mars? For some in the SNP tell them to go to Uranus. Those carrots may come in handy.
@ Cath 8.18pm A woman who gains their trust then betrays it is absolute toast.
—————————————-
I had a big YES from my wife when I read that out , we have discussed many times Alex Salmond and the charges brought against him , her response has always been that she has NEVER seen or observed that in him , she worked in education and was well aware of creeps , leerers , and handsy men , as she said many women are through experience and obviously avoided interaction with them if they could , but also they managed to convey warnings to other females when in conversation to make them aware and cautious of the individual.
She also finds it incredible that IF all these accusations from these women went on without them speaking to each other and registering en masse their discomfort why did it take a trawling session lasting 2 years with 22 police officers traveling the length and breadth of the country and interviewing hundreds of people to come up with these facile charges , not to even mention the investigations of the MET police where NO charges were found even although AS was down in the cesspit of WM for years and I assume had plenty of chances to misbehave
I think the failure of the MSM, Parliament, the Inquiry, and people within the SNP, to discuss the possibility of a conspiracy with any seriousness is now a bigger story than the conspiracy itself.
I have to assume the pandemic is playing a part in the apparent reluctance to address the subject. There’s no doubt some degree of corruption is in play too, but surely we can’t be that corrupt…
I hate this subject now. I get zero satisfaction from it. It’s hard to watch it unfolding. And honestly, I feel sorry for Sturgeon now. It won’t go away until she goes and genuinely, for her sake, I wish she’d just get it over and done with.
We can call it a mistake and move on. We all make mistakes. We all get carried away, lose the rag, do stuff we regret, etc. That’s life.
The best way for Sturgeon to salvage some sort of reputation here would be for her to simply admit mistakes were made and resign. That’s it. Easy. No further explanation required.
If she did that, we could forgive and forget, and move on – I would.
It’d be great to wake up and devote ourselves to fighting for independence instead of this. My God, we could have a real crack at it…
Come on ffs…
You know what might be an interesting wee exercise? Counting the number of SNP politicians in Holyrood who used to be New Labour, but who jumped political ship after their ‘Damascene moment’ of way-the-wind-is-blowing political illumination. Would be interesting to me, anyway.
@ Hatuey 2.23am I’m sorry I can’t be as christian or forgiving as you , as you say we all make mistakes but not ones that may imprison an innocent man for the rest of his life , or create and manipulate a situation that demolishes and shreds a persons family , integrity or dignity , it is NOT only Alex Salmond who has suffered possible bankruptcy in an attempt to prove his innocence , his whole family has been under the spotlight with every hack desperately salivating for any morsel of sin
This was not a mistake this was and is an action by a person with severe mental problems who conspired with others to concoct a malevolent plan to inflict a series of sexual allegations in a DELIBERATE attempt to smear his reputation and character without caring of the impact or penalties he would suffer
Hmmmm I canvassed a lot for Indy in the 2 yrs before the actual referendum. & the only people that ever said the words. (I would never vote for that Salmond) were men, even when I tried to explain to them that they were voting for INDEPENDENCE not FOR Alex Salmond. They would reply with, AYE but it is HIM wanting it, that’s enough for me.. I have met Alex Salmond a few times same with Nicola Sturgeon, I have always referred to Alex as MY BRAVEHEART to my American pals, I am not ashamed to say I adored the man, his love for this country & to see it Independent he wore on his sleeve. I was happy when Nicola took over the reins, after all, Alex was her mentor, She always came across as solid for Indy too. Nicola was a bit more stand offish than Alex.. But I had high hopes she would finish the job he started & he taught her how to do her job to the best of her ability..
I know many Europeans voted NO, for fear of losing their jobs & homes because project fear told them this is what would happen, I was 61yrs old at the time of the referendum, & every female I knew around my age, were all voting YES. I was so sure we were going to win that vote, all that door knocking gathering information, showed yes was ahead on paper..
So when the result came in, it was like a death in my family, I myself went into mourning for many months. Then the huge influx of members Immediately following the LOST referendum, had to mean something surely, people were showing WM that they DID want INDY because they now knew WM were just a bunch of lying rats.. Then in 2015 when Scotland voted in the GE & got a result never to have been expected by any party, I knew that this was the Scots voting AGAIN for Independence, because Scotland now knew the lies & the Vow meant nothing…
56MPs at WM & a majority in HR.. with a membership of 120,000 Surely that answered any NO vote. I expected Nicola to jump on that HUGE win at WM while she also had a majority in HR. But it seemed to be more important that the MPS were down there. The Glorifying of it all.
I wasn’t surprised she lost her majority in the HR election in 2016, I know many of us couldn’t believe she was not putting herself out there being MORE demanding or even just being a bit bloody demanding of WM for even more powers, we got NOTHING but laughed at..Then BREXIT happens, & we are told we WILL be out of the EU thanks to the English Voters.. And what does Nicola do, she spends more time in LONDON fighting to save England from their mistake, trying to get the ENGLISH to change their minds. Ignoring the 120,000 Indy marchers in EDINBURGH, but joining the LONDON March & Rallies.. In 2017 when May called her election, I was surprised we managed to hang onto the 35 MPs, Because everyone I was talking to even then,
Were saying SHE is never going to go for INDY, she wants the POWER of being FM & in Government.
I was starting to think they were right, this wee Lassie who joined the party at 16yrs of age, because she believed in INDY, didn’t seem to have the same enthusiasm for it even when the shambles that was going on in WM, plus the BREXIT negotiation shambles, not even then was it enough of a reason for her to make a firm stand & actually think of a way to GO AGAIN for INDY.. because when May said NOW is NOT the TIME, Nicola just nodded in agreement, she must have, because we were not hearing the word INDEPENDENCE anymore..
Then in 2018 when the SALMOND fiasco was being put together to destroy him, when nobody seemed to wonder why a man that was at WM for the years he was, became FM of Scotland, & all the media press could do to try to destroy him was liken him to HITLER or MUGABE.. Because if he was the sexual predator the present FM & her husband & cohorts in the party tried to make him out to be, WM would have found him out years before. AND they would have used it just before the 2014 referendum to destroy him..
But when Alex Lost his seat in The GE in 2017, he did mention he would probably stand for HR at the next election..(2021) And THAT was what caused the MURRELS concern. NO way did they want him back, so the PLOT was put in place. And for someone who was her closest friend outside of her family, She even had him removed from the history of the SNP before he was even found guilty, which of course he never was. 53yrs I gave my vote to the SNP, 20yrs a member. Knocked on doors for every election & the referendum. But I left the party due to the corruption that I was seeing within that party. And in reply to BJ, if a shopkeeper was cheating me of my change Everytime I used his/her shop. I most certainly would BOYCOT that shop. Never to give them my money again. Which was the same reason I left the SNP, why should I fund a party so corrupt, give them my vote even, especially when I feel short changed by the SNP PARTY when she stopped fighting for INDEPENDENCE, I have NO desire to keep her in GOVERNMENT.. As Robin Mcalpine said, if we want to build a new Scotland a more decent fairer Independent country, we should not start by voting for a party so corrupt. Just because they are the ONLY vehicle in town (supposedly for INDY) You start as you mean to go on, & I will not vote SNP while Nicola and her cabal are leading the SNP.. Someone posted here that he was told there are LOTS of good people in the SNP. Well you know how corruption thrives surely, it is when GOOD people stand by doing NOTHING.. So for me those GOOD people do not deserve to be re-elected either. And I certainly won’t give my vote to anyone who puts career first so continues with corruption.
Twathater, I’m not arguing or disagreeing. It’s just shit.
It could have been so different.
It feels like a no-win situation and the only rational thing to do in a situation like that, it seems, is to walk away.
Oh well.
Bye.
Good wee feature on RTE last night about it being the 700th anniversary of Dante’s The Divine Comedy.
Nine circles of hell. Blimey.
They get worse as you go down, and the most horrible stuff happens in circle nine…
What a topic, it gave me a bit of a laugh even though its all a load of tripe, where do they get this stuff from.
If women voted according to whether your a man or a woman Boris Johnstone would never have become the london mayor or the prime minister cause I cannot make out whether he is male or female lol
Kate says:
19 January, 2021 at 4:16 am
Said with tremendous clarity and dignity Kate. I think it must have broken Alex Salmond’s heart a wee bit too.
Sturgeon is beneath contempt. Her patent inability to think strategically I think prevents her seeing how this ends, but I wouldn’t want to be Nicola Sturgeon for anything.
More and more, I find myself thinking about Nixon and Watergate, and how the scandal of a breaking and a coverup took down a Presidency, 69 of Nixon’s people were indicted, and 48 of them were convicted.
But how can I put it… the Watergate scandal centred around a botched burglary of the Democrats HQ, and frankly, that ‘Mother of all Political Scandals’, actually begins to look quite benign when compared to the vicious and nasty conspiracy to destroy a man of great stature and statesmanship with a grubby and vindictive amateurish conspiracy to see him branded a sex offender and sent to prison.
My intuition suggests to me that Robin MacAlpine is correct when he implies this Conspiracy didn’t start out to be so evil, but the conspiracy spiralled out of control and grew darker and darker, implicating more and more people, until there was no going back and no getting out of the conspiracy. But that won’t save them. It’s their damning chronology of opportunities to stop and turn back, but they chose to keep going.
Scotland wanted Independence and instead got it’s mini Watergate, but a more nasty and vicious version of it. It’s probably going to take down Scotland’s incumbent First Minister, the Permanent Secretary and Head of the Civil Service in Scotland, and the Lord Advocate of Scotland, and while I hope it doesn’t, it might yet deny a Sovereign Nation it’s Independence.
Nope, I wouldn’t want to be in Nicola Sturgeon’s shoes for anything. You see if there are State Conspirators in this, puppets and people working for the British Establishment, the British Establishment will look after them, see they have homes to go to. But those of ‘us’ who have turned on other ‘us’, for them there will be nothing except a pernicious guilt to blight the rest of their miserable lives, and maybe a prison sentence to kick it off.
Scottish history hasn’t been kind to it’s 1707 Parcel O’ Rogues.
I happened to watch Angel Heart a few days ago. I won’t spoil the plot, but it got the imagination running, about a wee Independence politico who sold her soul to the Devil to become First Minister of Scotland, but the cruelty in the small print was that she would be First Minister, but she’d never see Independence, but burn in perpetuity for being the one who destroyed it. That’s how contracts with the devil usually work out.
My understanding was that, after a referendum which didn’t provide independence, the strategy was independence by stealth – having a SG in a safe pair of hands which gradually acquired more and more powers until it was de facto running the country. Brexit and its fallout scuppered than plan.
On the next site fun raiser – for the 50 quid prizes – could we please have ‘boys’ baseball caps in Argentina blue with wings logo and a ‘girls’ one in light pink.
If anything else, it would drive a few people nuts.
@Robert
I doubt there was much in the way of a plan. Building “independence by stealth” would presuppose a much more savvy and committed bunch of people than those responsible for the Growth Commission, innumerable mandates and accepting we need permission to exercise our self determination.
If they’d really wanted to build the foundations of a Scottish state, they’ve certainly signally failed to make any progress in building institutions to back it up in terms of examining every area of policy and ensuring they are, to the extent feasible, located in Scotland and controlled, financed and directed by the Scottish parliament rather than Westminster.
The (false) promises of the Vow should have been called out immediately post 2014 by making the case that the starting point for the Smith Commission, and returning powers, decision making and accountability to Scotland, should have been that the only “sacrosanct” areas of policy were defence and foreign affairs: EVERY other area of government should have been devolved unless there was an over-riding reason or financial penalty for not doing so.After all, THAT would have been true Home Rule wouldn’t it?
As things stand we have the worst of both worlds. No real prospect of a referendum for a minimum of 5 years, a governing party without a Plan B, no special deal on brexit like NI achieved, and the imminent prospect of Westminster retaining powers and funds returning from the EU via a bloated Viceroyalty which will attempt to weaken and sideline Holyrood by allocating funds centrally on a UK basis and by passing Holyrood to give monet and influence to local government instead.
Breeks @7.24am – Exactly this – well put Sir.
I read the book about watergate a long time ago. The guys who planned and committed the crime were all very right wing nutters. The folk who covered it up were less guilty but guilty nevertheless.
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I suggest Linda Fabiani should immediately report Lesley Evans and Judith McKinnon to the police.
It’s just Wiki, but…
“ Nixon’s own reaction to the break-in, at least initially, was one of skepticism. Watergate prosecutor James Neal was sure that Nixon had not known in advance of the break-in. As evidence, he cited a conversation taped on June 23 between the President and his Chief of Staff, H. R. Haldeman, in which Nixon asked, “Who was the asshole that did that?”
Tell me you don’t see parallels with the current soap opera playing out about Nicola Sturgeon allegedly not knowing about the accusations against Alex, but ‘forgetting’ meetings, not remembering what they were about, and generally trying to obscure what she knew and when she knew it… I rather suspect Nicola knew exactly ‘who the asshole was that did it’, but knew it was toxic for her own name to be implicated.
The difference is I suspect Richard Nixon probably didn’t know…
The only thing that Alex Salmond is going to lead the Independence movement into is the wilderness……and for many years.
gullaneno4 says:
19 January, 2021 at 8:20 am
The only thing that Alex Salmond is going to lead the Independence movement into is the wilderness……and for many years.
Well Gullaneo4, we can see what you will forgive Nicola Sturgeon for doing, but would you care to share whatever it is you won’t forgive Alex Salmond for doing?
Andy @ 8.00 ” basis and by passing Holyrood to give monet and influence to local government instead.” – are you taking the Pissarro ?
( Attempted ) joke aside —-Good comment , pretty dismal prospect you depict but I feel probably accurate , save for some unexected turn of events . Like a purged and revitalised SNP for example . Breath not being held
I have a different opinion on why a majority of women voted No first time round: women are expected to do everything, they are already juggling children, household and work, to keep things running, as well as ‘take time for themselves’ – I’m talking generalities here, I shelved the prospect of that level of hypocrisy and decided not to take on the burden of society’s expectations early on in life, yes I’m a weirdo – anyway – when faced with a half-baked plan that looked like just an additional set of chores, they decided no. That’s why I keep pushing for getting transition plans in place – don’t leave things ‘to be decided later’ there is a lot of work and decisions to be made and done – at least formulate proposals that give a list of choices and show some detailed thought has been put in and that’s what will change women’s minds to YES – don’t make it an additional chore to the ordinary punter. So, the demographics have changed now,,,
What I was going to look into is the breakdown of demographics on the popularity of NS – I still refuse to equate NS popularity with independence, there is no proof of correlation – I don’t believe all the soft noes happen to think NS is fab, it’s going to be a broad brush of people that do, and that should show her popularity has nothing to do with the popularity of independence – because, as we see here, there are swings both ways.
Another generality – women tend to be more critical of other women, we demand higher standards from each other than men could ever do. Obviously, in the face of being discriminated against, we are also more likely to give support to other women, and be more steadfast about it. What I’m saying is, any support of a man or woman leader by men or women is always balanced out, because people are people, and looking at gender (sex) divides is a false indicator.
NS is the one trying to play the gender (sex) division game – all men must be guilty! (Of something). It sickens me to my stomach that she’s doing this – and yes more so because she’s a woman (so a very poor representative), but even more more so because she’s preached equality all this time. Playing the perceived victim in a leader is a shit look (whatever sex she happens to be).
Dividing men and women into different voting camps – although interesting – is just not very useful because everyone is different, society is complex, and it doesn’t tell us much about how to fix it unless you make wild gender-stereotyped assumptions (as I’ve done above,,, but note, I didn’t make any assumptions about men).
Other demographic divisions are much more useful for seeing what type of arguments need to be addressed.
What I’m saying is that NS is enhancing sexism in society, her excuses are all centred around a man/woman divide, and we get shit phrases like ‘women do things differently’ – might seem minor? Not when it’s applied to people in the workplace – why not say ‘men do things differently’? That’s equally applicable. The whole thing is geared towards women being ‘lesser’ humans.
Kate @ 4.16
Eloquent and heartfelt post .
Nothing short of despicable what this mob of twisted , delusional egomaniacs have done to the hopes and dreams of a better country good people like yourself aspired and worked hard to bring about .
Kate @ 4.16
Thanks for sharing that.
You say that “I know many Europeans voted NO”, and it is the case that a majority of people holding to other national identities living in Scotland did indeed actively take it upon themselves to vote to block Scottish independence and to prevent the self-determination of the Scots.
As did even greater levels of those from other UK nations, and extraction; according to the census, there are more people from rest-UK (mainly England) living in Scotland than all other nationalities combined. (The latter group in some respects were more or less being asked to alter their national identity from British to Scottish, and with a predictable outcome).
The total contribution of No voters that hold to ‘other national identities’ (i.e. not Scottish) may therefore have been as much as one million votes, i.e. perhaps as much as half the No vote.
This suggests that it was in large part those holding to other national identities “who stopped Scotland becoming independent”. This confirms as might be expected that the emotion of national identity is one of the most important factors in any referendum on the self-determination of ‘a people’.
This should not be unexpected as most peoples in self-determination conflict appear to be linguistically and hence also culturally divided.
Del G 10.23
…. I was just passing on some information for you!
I keep reading here how “Westminster” uses all of its powers of duplicity and deception to interfere in Scotland …. I give you a “heads up” … and suddenly it’s of no interest/consequence. Hey Ho!
It look like Sturgeon will get that film made about her life story she has always craved. Something tells me it won’t be the portrayal she had in mind.
“A psychological thriller about greed, envy, betrayal, lust for power and the downward spiral into madness” sounds about right.
Breeks @8.26
I don’t have to forgive Salmond for anything,
I was very pleased that the Jury came to that verdict.
To put it simply he is yesterday’s man who would not be able to gather sufficient support in Scotland to get us over the line.
Name a politician who has made a successful comeback, quite difficult isn’t it.
Whilst this stushy is big news on this site, I believe your average Yes voters are like me and not really bothered.
Talking of Watergate, Gil Scott-Heron’s “H2Ogate Blues” is a very good take on the scandal and you can quite easily substitute Watergate for Holyrood!
Five more years of that?!?
A process of feminization, or rather effeminization, and minoritization in the quest for perceived « diversity » in a party whose raison d’être lies elsewhere is what we are now dished up under Mrs Murrell’s régime.
Males who have no problem surrendering to the new order of « gender » politicization may be contrasted with those who regard masculinity as nothing to be ashamed of or to be apologetic about.
National sovereignty being twinned with minority driven social engineering is counter productive strident noise from « the left », a species that has long ago bidden farewell to anything those on the authentic left would recognize.
I sense that the new eunuch US president may offer further succour to this misbegotten tendency.
Name a politician who has made a successful comeback?
Alex Salmond. He was expelled from the SNP for being too socialist. He returned to be leader. Resigned as leader in 2000, but returned as same in 2004 against the odds.
gullaneno4 says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:25 am
Breeks @8.26
To put it simply he is yesterday’s man who would not be able to gather sufficient support in Scotland to get us over the line.
The FMs court clearly do not hold that view.
Name a politician who has made a successful comeback, quite difficult isn’t it.
Easy, Alex Salmond, stood down as leader 2000, returned as leader 2004 to considerable success.
Whilst this stushy is big news on this site, I believe your average Yes voters are like me and not really bothere
As the ‘average yes voter like you’ is obviously separate from those who read this site, and it has been made little of in the establishment media, how would the ‘average yes voter like you’ come to an informed opinion?
Is the ‘average yes voter like you’ aware there is sero likelihood of being able to cast their average vote yes under the current leadership?
imo as a New Scot,
Male Scots must find a way of stopping travel from
Mars to Venus to achieve a real peaceful independence again after the Oliver Cromwell atrocities and the “Golden Revolution”.
Do Venusians need to be encouraged more to try to work out how to visit us?
Bob Mack says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:41 am
Yeah but no but Gullane meant apart from Alex Salmond. He meant name another politician apart from Alex Salmond who has made a successful comeback…
Both Alex and Nicola have had their day. Both have had positive and negative effects on the SNP and the general independence movement. Both are loved by many and hated by many.
As one who contributed to Alex’s fundraiser you get where my loyalties lie, of course, Alex himself has said he is no angel and clearly neither is oor Nicola, that is the sharp end of politics for you, it is brutal.
To gain our independence, we as a group must work together as a broad church, anecdotally I have friends who are Tory (yes tory) and some who are socialist and all support Independence.
All I ask is that the Yes Supporting “Friendly Fire” stops, that we turn our attention back to the real enemy. Healthy debate is good, but not the vicious attacks of recent.
Rinse and repeat: the UK Gov. most power weapon is Divide and Conquer.
Gullane – please stop flogging – your horse is dead.
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Once all the sordid details of what the first minister knew, allowed and did are released – you will feel a right eejit.
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I agree it is very like Nixon’s watergate, only much worse. They tried to jail an innocent man. Nixon escaped jail by resigning (and getting a pardon). People understood he had little to do with the original burglary, but everything to do with the cover-up.
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I think there will be little pity for Nicola Sturgeon.
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I hope everyone can guess why this scandal is not being promoted as SNPbaaaaad on the BBCollaborators.
David Ferguson says:
19 January, 2021 at 10:00 am
Bob Mack says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:41 am
Name a politician who has made a successful comeback?
Alex Salmond. He was expelled from the SNP for being too socialist. He returned to be leader. Resigned as leader in 2000, but returned as same in 2004 against the odds…
Yeah but no but Gullane meant apart from Alex Salmond. He meant name another politician apart from Alex Salmond who has made a successful comeback…
There was a guy called churchill, but who’se heard of him outside this site?
Only the great politicians make a comdback of any description Alex did it .Twice.
Jn that category you have Lincoln, De Gaulle. Bonaparte.
Alex is a leader.
In similar vein how do you think Nicola wil! fare if found guilty?
…That cunt Adolph too. Party leader in 1921 jailed 1923. His comeback was huge.
gullaneno4 says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:25 am
Breeks @8.26
“Whilst this stushy is big news on this site, I believe your average Yes voters are like me and not really bothered.”
Then we are truly f***ed because it means they will settle for a WM type parliament draped in a Saltire – A case of “happy to be screwed over as long as it’s by our own”. Who says there is no anti English sentiment among (some) Yessers?
We should maybe remember gullaneno4 hints at a liking for golf.
Tell me Sir, do you still have to show your Conservative and Unionist Party membership to be allowed to play a round on any of the Gullane courses?
Family life, the new normal
https://alexanderadamsart.files.wordpress.com/2020/11/bog-roll-apocalypse-1.jpg
Me and my pals always thought highly of Alex Salmond because he came across as honest, forthright and committed. I used love watching the debates and/or interviews because no-one, no-one got the better of him. If some people didn’t ‘like’ him too bad. I’d rather take intelligence and integrity any day of the week.
On the other hand a few men of my acquaintances really do hate NS and only some are yoons.
Some women (and some men) voted no for some simple reasons, their employers told them they’d lose their jobs in an independent Scotland. Chief culprits were the civil service and banks.
They weren’t persuaded by argument or personality merely threatened.
Expect more of the same.
The Salmond Inquiry team meets again privately. Let’s hope they re-focus on the inquiry objective, which is NOT to leak information detrimental to AS to the press; it is to pursue the truth in respect of the Scottish Government’s handling of allegations against him which turned-out to be false.
I’m not convinced by the SNP bad, they’re all just in it for the pensions arguments. However, the repeated non-initiatives for indy are grating and there has been a lamentable failure to capitalise on the post-indyref surge and move forward in persuading the public. The poll leads have been pathetic and to my mind can be accounted for by the fact that we’re now 7 years on from 2014, a fair few old dyed in the wool Empire Loyalist Unionists will have croaked in that time and we know the young are far more receptive to the indy message. I haven’t a clue about the gender balance though by subscribing to the transcult fad, NS seems to be doing her best to redress that balance negatively by peeing off as many women as possible. The sad fact is that with these pathetic poll leads, we’re in no position to conduct an indyref. A 2nd failure really would kick independence into the long grass for a very long time.
My fear is that if NS doesn’t lance the boil of the appalling treatment of AS and his supporters and reign-in (sack) the horrifying Lord Advocate, we really will be in the position that it is only the non-existence of a credible opposition that is keeping the SNP in power as a least worst option. Scots while loyal are not given to My Party Right or Wrong and lack of progress towards indy can only be hidden behind Covid for so long.
Follow this link to find inspirational educational material for the new social order.
https://alexanderadamsart.wordpress.com/2020/11/16/miriam-elia-we-do-lockdown/
Bob Mack says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:41 am
Name a politician who has made a successful comeback?
Alex Salmond. He was expelled from the SNP for being too socialist. He returned to be leader. Resigned as leader in 2000, but returned as same in 2004 against the odds.
——
Jesus of Nazareth- and he was supposed to deid!
So the new independence taskforce set up by Sturgeon will be one person sitting behind a desk twiddling their thumbs, and Sturgeon can then claim that the ringfenced indyfund were used by the task force which she say consisted of dozens of folk working around the clock to bring Scotland independence.
The truth of the matter is, it isn’t Johnson, or the BBC or the BritNat parties at Holyrood that’s stopped Scotland from becoming independent since the EU referendum in 2016, no its Sturgeon and Murrell. Its all smoke and mirrors by her and Blackford, he decries the Tories at Westminster and she does likewise at Holyrood, the uninformed masses scream with delight that she’s seen to be championing the indy cause as is Blackford.
But under leadership Scottish independence will never be gained, it will just be ground hog day again and again and again.
NellG @ 9.25
” Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad ”
QED .
Don’t travel no cross border journeys allowed that’s the Covid message coming from Westminster and Holyrood, yet at the weekend a convoy of nukes from England travelled to Scotland and Faslane where previous cases of Covid had broken out.
The truth of the matter is that Westminster does what it wants, when it wants in Scotland, occasionally Sturgeon rails at it, for our amusement, but as long as Sturgeon’s in power in Scotland, Westminster will continue to shit all over Scots, and Sturgeon will continue to show her token disproval.
NellG says:
19 January, 2021 at 9:25 am
It look like Sturgeon will get that film made about her life story she has always craved. Something tells me it won’t be the portrayal she had in mind.
“A psychological thriller about greed, envy, betrayal, lust for power and the downward spiral into madness” sounds about right.
Might get sued for plagiarism of Macbeth.
@Robert Hughes 8.35am
Very droll: I can only blame sausage fingers & haptics! 😉
I’m less sanguine than others that there will be an unexpected turn of events, or that even if there is it will result in substantive progress. Like you I won’t be holding my breath: the recent inactivity of the newly elected NEC is not encouraging.
I remain if the view that the gradualist establishment in the party and their woke Wahhabi outriders are too firmly entrenched, and faced with internal party opposition and external Yes movement opposition which is too weak and disorganised to effect real change in the required timescale. It’s a shame, but absent some deus ex machina moment, we need to turn our thoughts to what the alternatives are, what timescales they can be achieved in, who leads the charge, and what direction we go.
These aren’t trivial questions. I sense much will depend on events in the next few months and the outcome of #HR2021. If that’s as disappointing as we fear, then there is work to be done. The plus side is there will be a 5 year window to organise an alternative.
@ Lorna Campbell at 9.47
A great post. I agree entirely, especially with this
‘The party has lost many women because of the pseudo ‘wokist’ capture which has allowed women to be marginalized in favour of men who come under the trans umbrella which is now so huge that any man who says he is a woman, whatever his motive, will be called ‘trans’. That is decidedly misogynistic, not misandrist.’
Andy – Agreed . There’s absolutely no sign of the calvary cresting the hill to provide salvation – only the ” Calvary ” of the continuing suffering of the Independence Movement .
The problem for me is not the personalities, but the complete lack of action by the party entrusted to get us independence. Let’s face it, the SNP have been fucking useless in the last six years. It can’t all be blamed on the leadership (awful as it is) – the test of the MPs and MSPs have done nothing either. Yes, we’re seeing Chris McEleny and Kenny McAskill (thankfully) starting to voice their dissatisfaction with the current inaction, but where are the others? The SNP has failed to do its job – it should have been building the case for independence since 2014,and even more since the lunatic English vote in 2016. We could have been polling well above 70 per cent for independence now if a properly run campaign had been run using the ring-fenced money.
Current, for some people (in my opinion), independence means more SNP irrelevant bollocks like GRA and HRA, and who can blame them? How could anybody believe that they would allow free elections?
Fuck sake, James Kelly is deleting my comments. All I said was I thought his spat with Stu was getting childish.
It’s not as if I an Wings’ biggest fanboy, I’ve had my disagreements with Stu, was even banned for a while and have been repeatedly dissed btl as a wheeshter and Nicola cultist.
Rational debate is becoming a thing of the past in Indy circles. I am looking forward to a final explosion so I can enjoy the time I have left without politics, the last ten years have been exhausting.
It’s started. An attack piece on Scottish independence appeared on MSN yesterday (by Al Jazeera, surprisingly).
Goes along the same old bollox, ‘even IF the SNP win in May and even IF there is a referendum and even IF the yes side won there are no guarantees of re-entering the EU’, and a new one; ‘problems trading with the rest of the UK post independence’ could make independence ‘ruinous’.
And here was me thinking that it was the BBC that was paid to produce this kind of material….
An English Care Home has lost 18 of 27 residents to Covid
and 2 staff members are hospitalised.
When a significant number of residents in an English owned Scottish care home died
it was on TV for months.
Anyone else heard about England’s disgrace after all these months
of learning about Covid?
Anyone expect to keep seeing it on TV?
99% of Scottish Care Hone residents are vaccinated now so if the English
had prioritised them as we did, they might all still be alive.
Anyone expect to hear or see that on U.K. media?
Reform then restitution. Devolution led the charge for an independence vote to be held in the first place. So the way I see is further reform is needed throughout the rUK rather than helplessly hoping indy just happens.
Let’s see if any more powers will be granted to devolved governments after Brexit, after all, Brexit is a cause for opinion polls swinging from No to Yes given the atrocity of the last few years.
@Iain More, 9.18
The Referendum was lost because of some c 800,000 postal votes
It’s funny that figure c 800,000 keeps appearing. That’s around the number of names which disappeared from the electoral register in the following year.
Finally. MSM is picking up the story. Yet.. not convinced the forwarding was an honest mistake really. https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-sturgeon-faces-more-questions-over-alex-salmond-bullying-claims-after-internal-emails-leaked-12192267
James
19 January, 2021 at 12:10 pm
Al Jazeera report the best they can, but still expect bias from any given reporter. Saying that, I’m not gullible to believe going it alone after a YES vote will go swimmingly, rejoining the EU may be an issue, agreeing with the UK on a split of military and financial assets is not going to be easy and trade is the least I know about, but I assume a similar train that Brexit has bought will be at play.
I’m not against indy, in fact I’m for democracy, but anybody that thinks the process will go swimmingly I think, may be a wee bit mistaken.
Tory NI Secretary Brandon Lewis says empty supermarket shelves are due to the Corona Virus and not because of Brexit?
Isn’t that strange Corona has taken 10 months to do this and all those poor importers and exporters have it wrong.
Will Westminster be able to starve another million Irish people to death is the real question.
GullaneNo4
Since when did perjury, conspiracy to pervert the course of/obstruction of justice and misconduct in public office cease being crimes punishable by a custodial sentence and get relegated to the status of a mere “stushy”?
Who do you think you are? The Lord Advocate?
O/T Nicola Sturgeon faces more questions over Alex Salmond bullying claims after internal emails leaked
https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-sturgeon-faces-more-questions-over-alex-salmond-bullying-claims-after-internal-emails-leaked-12192267
Effigy @ 1211 pm
What shocks me about care homes is that some carers are refusing to take the jab ? Wtf is that all about- in the name o the wee man.
Don’t sound much like carers to me and should be binned . No doubt from that speck git Kilgour or whatever he’s called. Probably his mob.
@Polly 11:46am and Lorna
The article as presented by Stu, was why men don’t like Nicola Sturgeon asking for a couple of million friends. So that would be ordinary men. I have no doubt that the Trans issue is fundamentally misogynistic. But that represents a very small percentage of men and does not illuminate why the sharp drop amongst men for Independence. There could be multiple, complex set of reasons but I can tell you the Trans issue is not a primary reason. And I have supported opposition to the GRA as the vast majority of men do. You would need to stand in the shoes of an ordinary man to see why Nicola grates.
I know one older woman – probably a Tory voter – who HATED Nicola Sturgeon – but who has been fierce in her defence during the CoVid period. She is utterly and absolutely her number one fan – and now defends her at every opportunity.
“I’d love to vote for her” she told me “but only if she drops all that independence nonsense”. “I know you are SNP, and I know I have always criticised her in the past, but she has been absolutely wonderful during the pandemic – but I can’t vote for her, because my children (who live in England) would be foreigners and I won’t be able to visit them”. But if she drops all this independence rubbish, she’ll have my vote”
I didn’t have the heart to tell her she has nothing to worry about on that score with Mrs Murrell!
Captain Yossarian, 11.15
The Salmond Inquiry team meets again privately
Why did you write “Salmond Inquiry”? The inquiry is examining the actions of the Scottish Government and its Civil Service. Nicola Sturgeon heads the Scottish Government and Leslie Evans heads its Civil Service. Isn’t the normal practice to name the inquiry after the Chair?
Simon C
Ach weel, might as well not bother then, eh?
A tory woman living in scotland can’t vote for the Dilly Dolly all the way aka Nicola Sturgeon because her children would be foreigners and she would not be able to visit them.
Well she could arrange to visit them in Dublin, I am sure the Irish would let her in if the english refuse her entry lol
@Cirsium – Yes and I agree with everything you say. It’ not been called the ‘Fabiani Inquiry’ or the ‘James Woolfe Inquiry’ but perhaps it should be.
My point is, it needs to re-focus on its objective which is the conduct of the SG towards Alex Salmond.
I watched Nicola Sturgeon on Sky’s Sophie Ridge earlier. I lesson on obfuscation. ‘Alex Salmond was cleared of criminal charges, but information was revealed at the trial of behavior which is unacceptable nonetheless’.
David Caledonia says:
19 January, 2021 at 12:44 pm
“A tory woman living in scotland can’t vote for the Dilly Dolly all the way aka Nicola Sturgeon because her children would be foreigners and she would not be able to visit them.”
You’ve nailed it David. But the clue is ‘Tory woman’. Not very bright, and oblivious to reason and logic!
Kate’s post at 4.16: very well expressed. Thank you.
I fear this is a rare occasion when the Rev is wrong that resignation is inevitable if the FM is found to have lied to Parliament. People think it is just a matter of a couple of dates being argued about. And of course they don’t want to think that there is something wrong.
Also the inquiry is toothless, not manned by QC-type analysts, so unlikely to identify the key points.
@Cirsium – one last thing….have a look at the Sophie Ridge interview yourself. For me, Nicola Sturgeon is blinking every second and looks very far from convincing.
Remember the old Labour Party leaders – Wendy Alexander, Henry McLeish and I think Jack McConnell went for trivial offences in comparison to what the Salmond Inquiry is investigating just now.
Off this particular topic but linked, this will give you some idea of what happens every time an FOI request is made to the SG:
https://news.sky.com/story/nicola-sturgeon-faces-more-questions-over-alex-salmond-bullying-claims-after-internal-emails-leaked-12192267
Sky news just had a report about a journalist enquiring about the complaints procedures and the SG issuing an entire e mail chain which included responses from N Sturgeon and L Evans but he was strangely cut off so no information was provided
Intrigued!!
Dont forget the independent and expanded Hamiltion Qc inquiry. Route two if you will to remove her other than the Holyrood Inquiry.
Hmm, all a bit cheap.
And if the real support in the population is, say, 55-45, you do get the occasional 51-49, that’s just how the maths work out. Of course, if the real support in the population is 47-53, you also get the occasional 51-49. But given the number of polls I think we can be fairly confident that either (a) the real support is between 52-48 and 56-44 or (b) there is a systematic bias in the polls (as there was e.g. in the US presidential polls.
Just read the first few, so I’ll repeat what I said a while back. Come back tonight.
Next survey, a question, “how much do you hate that Alic Samon”, on a scale of Aye, he’s no bad to Ah canny fn stand the ba*****.
I’ll kick in for that question, because at my age, I’ll be deid before anything happens.
Thanks @Boris, fascinating article here from 2014, needs updating. https://caltonjock.com/2014/08/31/the-sarwar-dynasty-the-chalice-is-mine-says-anas/
Bob Mack 0941
Politician who made successful comeback- Winston Churchill.
Resigned after Gallipoli. 1915.
25 years in the wilderness.
Returned as PM 1940
Beaten by Attlee 1945
Returned as PM 1950.
Two comebacks over 35 years
@Captain Yossarian, 1:10
Remember the old Labour Party leaders – Wendy Alexander, Henry McLeish and I think Jack McConnell went for trivial offences in comparison to what the Salmond Inquiry is investigating just now.
The inquiry is investigating the incompetence of the Scottish Government and its Civil Servants. Alex Salmond only comes into the inquiry because he was the target of this Scottish Government.
The FM and the corporate media want to divert attention from the inquiry’s findings and so continue to focus on and smear Alex Salmond. Can you see how misnaming the inquiry fits in with the FM’s narrative?
The sky news story seems to be yet another attempt to smear Alex Salmond, this time for bullying. But the request was made in 2017, so why is this a story now?
The Americans have a president 12 years older than Salmond.
No bets on which one has the firmer hold on reality.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-transgender-woman-assistant-health-secretary-nominee
@Truth for dummies,
Its a story now because of two reasons. Fjrstly Nicola Sturgeon at the time was deputy fM and actually had a hand in compiling the complaints process which stated Ministers accused of such acts should go to arbitration. Alex was known to be a hard task master at the time, especially by civil servants. It proves Sturgeon knew there were some complaints rather than denying them as she did.
Secondly if she already knew there was a process to deal with Minister complaints having helped to compile it why did she then order a new policy because she said the original did not deal with Ministers.
What the original did not do was involve the police. That is the issue. If their plot failed the new policy would allow police referral preferably with permission of witnesses.
That was their fallback option to besmirch Alex.
Why else would a routine request from a journakist about previous procedures have to be sent to and cleared by the FM and the Permanent Secrdtary?
@Cirsium – No- I can’t to be honest. Watch Sophie Ridge, it doesn’t fool her either or, I doubt, does it fool any of her viewers.
Sturgeon’s justification for the trial was that Salmond was proven not guilty of the charges but information came out at the trial which makes him unsuitable for high office.
You don’t take people to trial for that reason. It’s an abuse of privilege….that’s the way I see it.
If you go back to Robin McAlpine’s article. He said something to the effect that it is almost without precedent in Western Europe for a political opponent to be taken to trial just for being an opponent.
It appears the lovely Teddy Hope has now left the SNP, claiming it is a “hub of transphobia”. LOL.
Captain Yossarian says:
19 January, 2021 at 11:15 am
The Salmond Inquiry team meets again privately…
A little bird tells me apparently the Scottish Government has a complaints protocol which states that if the investigation of a complaint reveals evidence of criminal wrong doing, the matter can be referred to the police.
So under Scottish Government protocols, presumeably the Parliamentary Inquiry will be referring any evidence of criminal Conspiracy to the police any day now…
Rattled: no, indeed, I doubt whether I would understand you, you being a man. I can only observe that misogyny appears to be bred in the bone. The point of the murder versus culpable homicide is relevant because it shows the depth of psychological difference between males and females, and it is little to nothing to do with one’s upbringing or imposed, societal gender stereotype, which, of course, means that we are on a course to destruction if we don’t get a grip of that fact.
Any half-decent psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you that the two sexes are very different psychologically, very different physiologically and very different biologically. Just get rid of the patriarchy and the rest will fall into place, and men and women will both complement each other and be able to respect each other’s differences. With patriarchy in place, that is impossible – not difficult, impossible.
My point was that the SNPG is not misandrist in its policies, not at all. Don’t get hung up on your hurt feelings. Be objective and be rational. Yes, there are women who behave like ticking time bombs, just as there are men who behave like that, too. The point is that men and women behave differently as taking time bombs. Men have a short fuse; women have a very long fuse.
I have known women who vote the way their husband or father does, but, of the women who put some thought into how they vote, they always seem to vote according to what will be least harmful to them and their children. Brexit has made independence attractive by comparison, albeit most women, I think, know perfectly well that independence is also going to be difficult for them, just not as bad as the aftermath of Brexit. Women are rational beings, too. The really interesting scenario would be: imagine of women were entirely autonomous human beings, with no patriarchy to control and constrain them, what kind of world would we have?
@Breeks – I’m very happy to hear that.
Tannadice Boy: I am not an apologist for Nicola Sturgeon or anyone else. I know why women change their votes; I know why women change their minds. They weigh up each scenario and work out the consequences on a balanced scale. It really is that simple. Brexit is a far greater threat to women and children than independence would be. It is about survival in a hostile world that was never made for women and children. I do not doubt that there are many good men out there who are not every-day misogynistic, but that is not really the point. The point is that patriarchy rules, and women have to fit into that mould as best they can. That we survive at all as a sex without destroying ourselves in our millions in despair never ceases to amaze me. But, to return to the point of the piece, it is because Brexit is a greater threat than independence that the women’s vote has changed – little to nothing to do with a change of ideology or a Damascene moment.
James:
That’s not what I meant, I’m for it. Just don’t think it will be as easy as people expected – instantly rejoining the EU with no issues and settling a trade agreement with the rUK.
@Lorna 2:25
The premise of the article was why has there been a sharp drop in men supporting Independence. Not why women have increased their vote. I have taken part in the debate to interrogate the reason for that decline amongst men. If we are to win Independence then it will need the support of both sexes. On the SNPG I use a topical example, the Harassment Inquiry. If it transpires that there was a conspiracy to jail and innocent man for manufactured wrongdoing then that would be my definition of misandry.
Tannadice Boy says:
‘The article as presented by Stu, was why men don’t like Nicola Sturgeon asking for a couple of million friends. So that would be ordinary me.’
Yes, I comprehended what Stu’s article was about by reading it, just as I understood your two posts previous to this. I disagree with you about the institutionalised misandry you (and others more strident than you) seem to imply has been created by Sturgeon. The GRA up here and the Westminster policies detailed by Lorna, proves the reverse – that it is women who are disadvantaged by many of her, and their, policies, disadvantaged even more I should perhaps say. What specific policies has Sturgeon brought in which proves men have been targeted by her? I’m sorry but her making a flippant remark that men only have to put on a suit and choose what tie to wear is not proof of much – especially since what women in public life wear, how they look is beyond question used against them in ways it very rarely is used against men. If you can provide details of specific laws I may have missed which target or are to the detriment of men I’m open to reconsidering my opinion.
And yes, but not all men do find her grating, and not all women are joyful about her leadership, which is precisely the point. As the article makes clear gaining one sex while losing the other is keeping the status quo of 2014. Quite frankly in my opinion Sturgeon’s trans agenda will lose support by women at a far greater rate than would any personal dislike of any particular male leader. I do not believe the supposed female support for Nicola Sturgeon is as large as is claimed because of who she is or because of her policies. Brexit, Westminster policies, are the driver. Therefore the point I would make is she has risked losing both men and women.
@ Tannadice Boy
‘If it transpires that there was a conspiracy to jail and innocent man for manufactured wrongdoing then that would be my definition of misandry.’
Then your definition would be wrong. Salmond wasn’t conspired against purely because of his sex, but because he was a threat to her dominance and whatever strategy she feels she is pursuing. Same with Mark Hirst and Craig Murray – it’s because they spoke out and had loud voices which people listen to not just because they’re men.
Of course there will be birth pangs with a new Scotland, but something we have dreamed of and laboured for so long must surely be worth it? After all, nothing worth doing is ever easy.
I often wonder if freedom will feel just as Harriet Tubman describes it:
“I looked at my hands to see if I was the same person now that I was free. There was such a glory over everything, the sun came up like gold through the trees, and over the fields, and I felt like I was in heaven.”
Tannadice Boy
If it transpires that there was a conspiracy to jail and innocent man for manufactured wrongdoing then that would be my definition of misandry
I wonder if it’s more complex than that. There may be misandry involved but most of the women have male partners and I would rather confer the use of a well-publicised ‘me too’ being adapted and adopted with political expediency to get rid of a perceived threat. I believe men were involved and I suspect that some of that will be retribution for years of downright envy of Mr Salmond’s success. Other men may simply be worried about the money they’ve ‘lost’ and can’t recoup (and that was BEFORE’ the trial). A couple MAY be politically motivated from Yoonland and of course there is the old reason for lots of abuse of power cases: ‘Because they could’. And that won’t cover all the reasons for this appalling behaviour.
James says:
19 January, 2021 at 12:10 pm
It’s started. An attack piece on Scottish independence appeared on MSN yesterday (by Al Jazeera, surprisingly).
Seen that weird report.
Some obscure Edinburgh uni academic lady with a mid atlantic accent talking disingenuous nonsense.
Her assertion that Scotland would face a protracted period outside eu after independence did not consider the possibility we might join Efta, EEA instead which would give us access to the single market.
Obvious british propagandist.
Polls to decide and divide the women from men,
Polls to decide and divide the old from young.
Polls to decide and divide the yes from no,
Polls to decide and divide scots from English.
Polls to decide and divide, with the question, if the isles want to stay with mainland Scotland.
Polls done, so as to cause division amongst the people, they are seldom correct. But they do bring the subjects to mind they want you to quibble around through psychological methods.
@ holymacmoses
‘…and I would rather confer the use of a well-publicised ‘me too’ being adapted and adopted with political expediency to get rid of a perceived threat’
Exactly so, and I’m also sure that had Sturgeon’s mentor been a woman in that situation then other means might have been found to malign her. I’m sure Sturgeon in that situation would have an equal opportunities approach.
Off-Topic.
Craig Murray has posted a new piece on his Blog:
https://tinyurl.com/y5mf2ou2
I’d be fascinated to see any detailed polling with a decent sample size trying to track why the flip in male versus female support took place, and why the GRA and gender woo stuff hasn’t had a negative impact on female support?
I doubt here is any such research, but the motivations behind the apparent flip would be interesting reading!
If NS said that on the Sophie Ridge programme, she is despicable.
She’s punting the no smoke without fire BS.
Since we’ve all heard the rumours, I would say that her behaviour is not acceptable for her office either by the same token.
What a disgusting hypocrite she is
https://randompublicjournal.com/2021/01/19/losing-our-mojo/
Posting this, not because it says anything which will set the heather alight, and actually, I’m holding on to my mojo until I see whether the Complaints Inquiry gets us free from Nicola Sturgeon’s lamentable leadership.
But he talks about AUOB… there is some hope on the horizon. All Under One Banner has set up a National Assembly and I am persuaded that is a winning idea.
I am minded to agree. I have frequently said in my comments that Scotland needs a National Constitutional Assembly to pick up the reins and start defending Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty if the SNP Government at Holyrood keeps doing nothing.
I’m not 100% sure this is 100% what I had in mind, but I think with some constructive input there’s a chance it could be.
I’m gonna stick my neck out a bit, and ask whether Rev Stu agrees this is a positive initiative, and might invite someone from AUOB to do a Wings piece about this National Assembly, and with no disrespect to those already involved, see what we do to get this Assembly rattling up peoples agenda and being openly discussed with a much higher profile.
https://auob.org/national-assembly
It’s been a while since anything new got added to my own Booklsted Indy sites, though more than a few have been removed.
I just think it might be an opening to keep oxgenating talk of Independence issues and hopefully see Wings and Wingers being able to contribute…
Truth be known, I suspect the SNP might very soon be doing the political equivalent of Apollo 13, falling silent for a period while it passes over the dark side of the moon and tries to get it’s s!*$ together.
I very much like the idea of putting the band back together, and getting those components of the YES Movement which ARE firing on all cylinders speaking together regularly and constructively, without everybody looking over their shoulder…
Craig Murray has posted about his trial for Contempt of Court, which will take place on 27 and 28 January 2021.
The charges being brought by the Lord Advocate are: –
a) Publication of material likely to influence the jury
b) Jigsaw Identification of Protected Identities
c) Reporting the Exclusion of a Juror
These relate to Craig’s reporting of Alex Salmond’s trial.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/01/my-trial-and-freedom-of-speech/
Breeks,
The SNP might in fact be closer to the Space shuttle Columbia where the heat shield got damaged by a conspiracy, ooops, I mean debris from the launch and it burned up on re-entry.
@Breeks
I’ve thought for a long time we needed an equivalent of the Catalan National Assembly (ANC). Whether AUOB is that equivalent remains to be seen I guess? An effective non-party pro-indy umbrella organisation has always seemed a no brainer.
My only worry now is that it should have been done a decade or more ago, and that what we really need now is an effective alternative “real” independence party in parallel with the gradualist – indeed in my view moribund and ineffective – SNP. At this point I doubt whether a “big tent” approach will produce short/medium term results?
https://int.assemblea.cat/
mrs che is writing this, I have been running a debatable argument of logic around in my head for few months now, to do this please hear me out before you shout. I am going to have to do a bit of question, answer and explaining,
Is Nicola sturgeon running the snp, or,
Is peter Murrell her husband running the snp,
Are the civil servants running Peter Murrell, or,
Is Peter Murrell running the civil servants,
Is it Peter Murrell,s text that try set up Alex Salmond, or,
Nicola sturgeons txt that set up Alex Salmond.
We know that the civil servants are involved as Peter Murrell was communicating with them early on to engage the police,
Was Peter Murrell already in place within the snp ready for his wife to take over from and replace Alex Salmond,
Here is a possible scenario that has been bothering me that is not spoken about much at all, and a lot of women will immediately understand, and some men too.
I was previously married for twenty four years and have first hand knowledge that outwardly to the rest of the world you can appear to be in control of your own life
, but behind closed doors your world rocks in a very unstable way every day, as to gain control of you manipulation is used often on a grand scale that is well planned by the manipulator.
,I trying to piece this together from some life experiences, knowing that marriages are not simple.
My own experience in life makes me realise that there is usually one dominant partner in the marriage, and quite often the quiet one can and does the domination by manipulation,
Manipulation can and does come in all forms, or sometimes more than one is used at the same time, as in emotional blackmail, manipulation in mental blackmail, manipulation through spreading seed stories, manipulation threat of harm to themselves or others, manipulation of setting others against you and manipulation to isolate you from loved ones and friends except for the ones chosen for you by the manipulative person.
I personally know and personally had to suffer this until one day I escaped accidentally and thus from that marriage, even so he still indicated that I might die one day soon, and there fore he was taken out an insurance policy and came to my new house and asked me to sign it, I called the police, end of twenty four years of a part of my life that should never have been.
But recently this also reminded me of the reports of police men marrying women to infiltrate information for the police and some of them had children to those women who hadn’t a clue their husbands were just using them,
It takes a certain kind of manipulative person with no empathy, and no emotion to be able to live with someone and not care what harm they do to that whole family, they can show extreme understanding that is not genuine, a good rapport with neighbours and friends that is not genuine, etc
When you have lived through it for twenty four years believe me you know the signs like the back of your hand, And Peter Murrell pretty much fits the stereotype, he has and does show signs and the capacity.
Polly 3:09pm
Any definition of misandry includes prejudicial action against a man. And what was the instrument of that prejudice? I am not an activist for mens rights but I note the article to examine the attitude of men, in part, morphed into women being the centrepiece. I could give you legislative and behavioural examples to illustrate what I am saying but I am not going to engage further. It wasn’t the purpose of the article and I am not convinced you are open to persuasion.
Mrs che writing, Well we should engage, not to blame men, because some women are down right awful too,
I could not have found a more lovely husband than the one I have now, and as far as I am concerned Alex was a good politician and has been unfairly set up and treated, he had got us much nearer and closer to independence than Nicola did, and I had no qualms about voting snp when he was leader, not like now,
Fairness in all comments to both sexes,
It is a bit like the comment under James che earlier, Polls are meant to divide us, to influence our speech and thought patterns. They are there for no other reason than to influence and hedge bets.
But that does not mean that the signature behaviour of a manipulator is not to be found in Peter
Murrell. Or that NS is not lying to cover for her husbands behaviour.
Speaking as a woman I have to say I much preferred Alex Salmond to Nicola sturgeon and I no longer feel represented by the SNP under her and her woke acolytes with their war on women and children.
Iain More
If you feel depressed take a break from Scottish politics. Nothing is more depressing than thinking about the SNP under Sturgeon.
I don’t know what works for you but, comedies help some people, such as Laurel and Hardy or Father Ted; music, walks, and talking can help.
.
That creepy wee James Kelly definitely has a face for radio.
Went across at the invitation of Scottish Renewables who was getting banned.
Looks like Gollum Kelly fae Scot Goes Plop has overplayed his hand…
https://archive.is/pC8ht
Stuart, wee Gollum Kelly has got a right dose of website-visitor-envy when you get 250 comments onto a thread and Auld Ringpiece over in Cumbernauld can just manage TWO comments.
Pfftt.
By the way Mr Kelly, PLEASE can you change that creepy Avatar you’ve got?
Something like this would work better. James, you know you want to…
https://archive.is/wip/leH1M
“while many of the SNP’s earnest young activists of today were still squeezing their spots”
Good one Rev!
I don’t understand why Salmond resigned following the 2014 referendum. Cameron only agreed to IndyRef1 because with the polls running at 28%, in his arrogance he thought he couldn’t possibly lose. (Then did the same with the Brexit referendum, some eejits never learn) I see raising support from 28% to 45% as a triumph for Alex and the Yes movement not a failure, and a necessary prelude to a successful referendum in a few years time. If Boris Johnson won a party-room VONC he would be quaking in his boots knowing that a further challenge is inevitable and only 5% of MPs need to change their vote for him to be out.
@ Tannadice Boy
‘I am not convinced you are open to persuasion.’
I’m truly sorry you feel that, or I’m sorry I’ve given that impression, for it certainly isn’t the case. I am indeed prepared to change my mind on things if given detailed reasons, examples or proof. I may be robust in debating my point but I value when other people are too.
Your definition of misandry and mine is different. While you say ‘Any definition of misandry includes prejudicial action against A man.’ I would say misandry (or misogyny) would be actions in a concerted, systematised fashion, detrimental to ALL members of that sex or by one person who consistently behaves in that way to most members of one sex. The terrible behaviour towards Salmond (and Joan McAlpine) I wouldn’t class as that.
The reason I approved Lorna’s post, and which you responded to, was because I disagreed that women were now more likely to vote for the party because she was leader, which is inherent in the premise of Stu’s article (Venus rising while mars declines), and because claims of misandry as a reason for men turning away don’t seem to be borne out by any planned policies, unlike GRA which of course disproportionately affects women. I don’t see talking about that or contending against the belief that men are the victims of her policies as ‘morphing into women being centre stage’.I realise some men feel differently about misandry, whyever that is, but feelings are not proof. I would agree there is at least the appearance of a ‘coven of witches’ surrounding the first minister and that she has supported, even encouraged, spiteful and vindictive behaviour in some of her pets. But then one of the victims of her group’s bad behaviour being Joan McAlpine, its targets are not exclusively male.
I’m sorry you feel unable to engage because you feel I might be doing so in bad faith, however, in an article which you say was solely centred on men’s changing attitudes to SNP led by Sturgeon, bringing up misandry as a reason only to then say you won’t provide examples as it ‘wasn’t the purpose of the article’ doesn’t square with being entirely truthfully engaged either. I wish you a good day.
Hi Polly
I am out and about today so a brief response. The legislation post election on the Hate Crime Bill in particular Misogynistic Harassment being an aggravated crime is of concern to me. A working party on this special provision will deliberate and present findings. So we will get the detail later. There is no such equivalence for men. I have to go will catch up later.
@ Tannadice Boy
Many thanks for your response. Yes, the whole HCB is a thorny nest of future problems. Although only speculative at present, not in current law, yet I understand why given unease with direction of leadership it would create concern, as do all segments of the bill. It seemed to me, perhaps wrongly, that the hat tip towards making misogyny a crime was probably only included after the trans supporting SNP government allowed the, very public, abuse of women from some of their members, starting early of course with Joan McAlpine. I believe it was only included at all because of the backlash from women against much of that.
As a woman I don’t feel its inclusion there was a careful or justified addressing of some of the misogynistic behaviour that can occur in society, and which their support for trans activists has unleashed to a far greater extent than I ever remember witnessing before – so I saw it as a sop to women who were complaining to them that transphobia was a crime and one which all women who support women’s rights are accused of (and as Stuart and others have demonstrated, and I know you’re aware of, is used against women by lawmakers and employers and courts already) yet horrendous abuse, even sometimes violence against women, didn’t have its own special category.
But I take your point about being uneasy about many of the provisions of the HCB, which could also further penalise women, as well as men, who continue to speak out. I realise you’re not a strident men’s rights activist and your feeling of current misandry from Sturgeon is not based on that, so perhaps men react differently to seeing a group of (mostly) women behaving in such a way as the Salmond accusers/Sturgeon supporters have and assume it must be hatred towards men that is the basis of it. Most women, even when girls at school, are aware of how hostile and dangerous to them a little clique of other girls can sometimes be, so we know it can be used against other women too, and probably much more often is. I don’t always have a great opinion of them when some women get together, it can create a toxic mix at times depending on personalities, they can definitely be more hateful than men in my experience. Perhaps the film The Beguiled and others like it has a little too much truth. Though I would still argue (so far, anyway 🙂 ) there’s been hardly any misandry in their policies and not very much of it in the reasons for their behaviour, we can both agree I’m sure the heinous behaviour they are guilty of towards Salmond is deserving of everything bad that we both hope is coming their way. I’m glad we haven’t fallen out 🙂 and I hope you have a good day.
@Polly 1:00pm
I am not falling out with you but equally
I am not conceding anything. Neither on leglisation or behaviour prejudical to men by the SNPG. I gave the example of the HCB during a coffee break (in a hurry) as the next piece of SNPG leglisation destined for the Supreme Court. On behavioural examples, Let’s have a Covid one!. The issue of playing golf on your own with staggered tea times back earlier in the pandemic. The decision was as golf is played largely by men then a relaxation might not be as utilised by women, so it wasn’t allowed. Stop and think about that. A decision made not on a scientific basis but on the number of men playing the game. Never mind about men’s wellbeing etc That was a prejudicial decision to men aka misandric. And the definition is commonly understood to be mainly about prejudicial actions. When young men realise what the ‘special provisions’ of the HCB are going to be, then expect the charge of prejudice to be more widespread. That is a dangerous proposal. Lets agree to disagree. I am off for dinner and read the next 3 WoS articles. I am done on this thread. And best wishes to you as well.
Male and female have existed since the beginning of time, no law should be bought for to start separating them, this is just modern woke going crazy with the purpose of dividing, that. What blm is about, the same is happening with the old against the young.