The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


The third voice

Posted on July 04, 2015 by

We’re not due a traffic post this month, so we’ll just leave this here.

sitespoll

(From a new Panelbase poll. More findings coming soon.)

Among people who voted Yes in the independence referendum, incidentally, Wings is now the joint-top source for online political content:

1= The BBC (22%)
1= Wings Over Scotland (22%)
3. The National (18%)
4. STV (17%)
5. Bella Caledonia (15%)
6. The Guardian (13%)
7. The Herald (12%)
8. Newsnet.scot (11%)
9. The Independent (9%)
10. Common Space (9%)

We didn’t make the No-voters list:

1. The BBC (30%)
2. STV (10%)
3. The Guardian (8%)
4. Daily Mail (6%)
5. Scottish Sun (5%)
6. Daily Record (4%)
7. The Scotsman (4%)
8. The Herald (3%)
9. The Independent (3%)
10= The Times/Buzzfeed (both 2%) 

Maybe Rory Bremner wasn’t so far off the mark.

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  1. 04 07 15 16:17

    The third voice | Speymouth

230 to “The third voice”

  1. Susan says:

    WoS is the first site I check every day. I don’t bother with the BBC any more. Well done Wings, hope you stay around at least till we are an independent country. Thanks for all the hard work you do.

  2. As a solicitor and voice of the establishment , can I just say , tally ho and carry on . You’re doing a great job . Long live WOS!

  3. michaelc says:

    I watched that embedded short Bremner clip (you’re a dick, Bremner by the way)

    Then at the end as you tube does, it put up suggested other clips one of which was a shot of Michael White’s sneering puss… off to eyebath my offended peepers.

  4. We need to get people from the NO camp coming on here if we ever are going to change their minds. Advertising campaign needed?

  5. heedtracker says:

    Talk about your david and goliaths. Did silly old Duncan Doughnut’s SLabour Hame go slooshing down the plug hole? lol:D

  6. Juteman says:

    I took part in this poll, and wondered if it was a Wings poll.
    The lack of space monsters had me unsure.

  7. Andy-B says:

    Well done Rev you’ve certainly earned your position, I’m baffled why folk would go to the BBC for political info,when the BBC, mainly promote unionist propaganda.

    I suppose many folk haven’t read GA Ponsonby’s, London Calling BBC Bias.

    They should.

  8. Bob Mack says:

    @Tree of Liberty.

    Advertising campaign already on the go.
    We usually call it Westminster.

  9. Schrödinger's cat says:

    It would be interesting to see which online sites people visit, wings doesn’t have a tv news channel….yet

  10. Paul Newton says:

    Excellent stuff, keep driving the digger forward and we will demolish westmonster

  11. woosie says:

    I’m on holiday in Mallorca at the moment, and have read the sun and times found lying around; I may stay in Scotland in future, if that’s the best there is. Apart from learning that evel is great for britain, and that Scotland’s objections are not even noted, I’ve read about celebrities I’ve never heard of, or wives of mp’s I’ve never heard of, having affairs.

    I’m a Yes voter, of course, so always check wos for reference to relevant political issues. I’ve watched rt, get The National and Sunday Herald. Have done for over a year now. Reading these spiteful, ridiculously biased english rags after a spell away actully shocked me, reminding myself that, before indyref, I was content to accept their tripe as the way things were.

    I’m sure that’s how most msm readers feel; they don’t really have a working man’s ( sorry, person’s! ) alternative. Until they do, I fear they will remain unenlightened.

  12. call me dave says:

    Jostling with auntie for 1st position is really good news and this site will wave bye bye to her as it becomes even more popular.

    Hardly tune into the BBC radio Scotland now for ‘news’ and we all know why!

    PS:
    Britain’s wealth gaps:

    https://archive.is/U9vOa

  13. The Man in the Jar says:

    Tallying up the percentages it is obvious that “No” voters dont do politics much. Now there’s a surprise!

  14. Helpmaboab says:

    Nature abhors a vacuum. In 2011 the vacuum was the near-total absence of trustworthy news and commentary about Scotland. It’s since been filled by the fresh air of the new media.

    Thanks to Wings, Bella, Newsnet, The National et al we have a far clearer sense of of what’s happening in our public life. Scotland is now a better-informed and a healthier society.

    But we can’t be complacent. The UK’s decaying newspapers and broadcasters are still spreading misinformation. Let’s continue to support the good guys, eh?

  15. snode1965 says:

    Wings Over Scotland,first and foremost.
    Channel 4 news,best TV news by a mile.
    The Guardian, for the Unionist view.
    And Cif for a week bit of badger baiting n a giggle.

  16. jimnarlene says:

    Wow, keep up the good, nae excellent, work.
    It’s quite depressing, though, the amount of people not visiting sites, of whatever hue, to find out what affects them on every level.

  17. snode1965 says:

    P.s. The National every day. 😉

  18. X_Sticks says:

    Well deserved Rev Stu. You do a magnificent job of keeping us all well informed and deconstructing their lies and propaganda.

    Not to mention, of course, all of the superb posters the inhabit the Wings site. It really is quite a thing. No wonder the unionists can’t get their heads around it. 🙂

  19. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Tallying up the percentages it is obvious that “No” voters dont do politics much.”

    The majority of No voters (58%) don’t read any politics on the internet. The majority of Yes voters (52%) do. It’s only a 10% gap but it seems at least modestly significant.

  20. Fireproofjim says:

    What is interesting about the No voters sources of political information is that there are no on-line sources, whereas there are three among the Yes voters, including WoS, off course,
    This would seem to show that the No voters are generally the older, less media-savvy people, who rely on the propaganda pushed by the MSM.
    No doubt about it. Time is on our side as the younger web using demographic become the majority.
    Hope it doesn’t take too long.

  21. Grouse Beater says:

    Not only does Wings save me time searching the menu of British media for my daily diet of Scottish politics, it also picks out the juicy bits and serves them to me on a plate. I need only add salt to taste.

  22. Wulls says:

    i will never understand why the BBC is on the list at all never mind at the top..
    If they have a shred of credibility left I certainly can’t find it..
    No organisation in recent history has displayed the levels of bias the BBC has.

  23. David says:

    A)
    The only non-MSM website in the NOsers top 10 is Buzzfeed with just 2% reading it.
    Compare that with 4 non-MSM websites that YESsers visit, in much greater numbers.

    B)
    YESsers access the internet much more than the NOsers do. Excluding the 2 tv sites, every site in the YES top 10 has more visits than the NOs top 10.

    C)
    NOsers are really, REALLY, wedded to the broadcasters and the dead tree press.
    Either they are happily brainwashed, or they do not realise they are allowed to look for other sources of news & opinion.

    If we assume that pro-Indy views will continue to get shut out of the MSM, then it becomes vital that the YES side takes the positive story of self-rule to the NO side, by conversation, by guerrilla advertising, by being visible.

  24. Jimbo says:

    Really? – People go to the Daily Record website for political content – really?

  25. galamcennalath says:

    Good news, Wings is popular!

    Bad news, Wings is not popular with No voters.

    So Wings is preaching to the converted. Which is good, because once someone can be persuaded to go to Wings, they will probably be converted!

    1) No voters tend not to get political info online:-

    There were 535 non SNP voters, 317 did not visit any websites.

    Therefore, 59% of Non SNP voters don’t visit political websites.

    By contrast, 48% of SNP voters don’t.

    2) No voters rarely visit Wings (or any other Indy site):-

    Non-SNP voters (535) visit

    BBC 159 = 30%
    STV 47 = 9%
    Guardian 42 = 8%
    Daily Mail 38 = 7%
    Herald 23 = 4%
    Record 23 = 4%

    National 5 = 1%
    Wings 6 = 0.1%
    Bella 4 = 0.07%

    Conclusions! We need to get more No voters online first, and then get them to pro-Indy sites!

  26. The propensity of no voters seems to be to seek information from more traditional media outlets, apart from Buzzfeed, who are the only surprise name on the list.

  27. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Simple logic dictates that there is no need for any NO websites as the MSM does the job admirably.

  28. heedtracker says:

    i will never understand why the BBC is on the list at all never mind at the top..
    If they have a shred of credibility left I certainly can’t find it..
    No organisation in recent history has displayed the levels of bias the BBC has.

    BBC’s way ahead in the NO vote though. Which is just such a surprise. Is relentless BBC vote NO or else propaganda stopping Scottish democracy, helping a lot to close down Scottish democracy or just really popular with unionist NO’s?

    All three.

  29. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What is interesting about the No voters sources of political information is that there are no on-line sources”

    The question very specifically asked people about which WEBSITES they visited.

  30. Indigo says:

    If this was an online survey though everyone on it will already be comfortable online, difference therefore not likely to be access to technology, rather interest in accessing political content when online

  31. Dr Jim says:

    I look at everything out of curiosity to see who’s saying what Wings First and always though

    Strange the opposition doesn’t read anything though

    Or do they just not admit to it

    How do they base an opinion or begin to form an idea of what they’re defending

    They can’t all be “Duh we say naw tae anything” can they?

  32. Democracy Reborn says:

    Well done, Stu, and thoroughly deserved.

    Pains me to say that the BBC used to be my first port of call online each day. Those days are over for good. The Beeb should give seminars to overseas national news outlets on broadcasting how poor, shit and useless your own country is.

  33. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Bad news, Wings is not popular with No voters.

    So Wings is preaching to the converted. Which is good, because once someone can be persuaded to go to Wings, they will probably be converted!”

    There were some interesting stats about that.

    2011 Holyrood voters now reading Wings Over Scotland

    Conservative 1%
    Labour 4%
    Lib Dem 6%

    But among 2015 voters, the numbers had taken a dive:

    2015 Westminster voters now reading Wings Over Scotland

    Conservative 0%
    Labour 2%
    Lib Dem 1%

    Obviously there are two ways of reading those figures. One is that Unionist voters grew weary of our vile ways and stopped reading.

    The other is that most of the Labour, Lib Dem and Tories who’d been reading Wings stopped voting for those parties (to be precise, 50% of the Labour ones, 84% of the Lib Dem ones and 100% of the Tory ones), and either didn’t vote or voted for someone else – most likely the SNP.

    So yes, it does seem like once Unionist voters start reading Wings, they stop voting for Unionist parties. The difficult bit is getting them here in the first place.

  34. Wuffing Dug says:

    Like most people of a yes persuasion, I don’t engage with the msm at all on any level.

    The figures above are very encouraging.

    I know you should never turn your back on the enemy but you need to look after your blood pressure….

    Licence fee will be getting cancelled soon once a personal situation resolves itself.

    I don’t like hearing about anybody losing their job (I work in oil and gas so seen enough of it) but there can be no quarter given to these sycophantic shills in the bbc who’ve had it their way for so long.

    Cancelling the licence fee is a minute gesture, but if it harms the bbc financially or if it takes another overbearing unionist shit stirrer out the game then all good.

    Looks like it’s beginning to hurt them. Be interesting to see if there any of the ‘big hitters’ get the bums rush.

    The times they are a changin indeed.

  35. Chitterinlicht says:

    Great result and well done.

    Not surprised its where i come first (joke in there somehwere) daily.

    Funny just how shit the Scotmsan Daily Record figures are.

    It would be really useful to get no voters coming here. Any chance get Jill Sephenson or Effie Dean to guest post?

  36. Kevin Evans says:

    I tell everyone I meet to check WOS out.

    I seen the name Effie deans mentioned. Is she even a real person?

  37. gillie says:

    47% of the poll for SNP.

    Does that mean the SNP are polling well over 50% in voting intentions?

  38. Croompenstein says:

    So yes, it does seem like once Unionist voters start reading Wings, they stop voting for Unionist parties. The difficult bit is getting them here in the first place

    If only we could get History Woman here… 🙂

  39. Justin Edwards says:

    I never bother with the BBC since the referendum coverage. This is where it’s at.

  40. Thepnr says:

    I was surprised to read that 7% of SNP voters visit the Daily Record site for political news at least once a week. You can only conclude that they have yet to visit Wings.

    I think we need an advertising blitz, the Aye Right cards were brilliant, everyone can carry a few around in their wallet or purse. And when the opportunity arises…

    Any good designers out there that can conjure up some smart designs for the front and back. I’m sure the Rev will get us a good deal on the printing costs.

  41. Proud Cybernat says:

    Amazed that 22% of YES voters still listen to the BBC. But then, I suppose we need to know what our enemy is up to in order to counter their keech.

  42. heedtracker says:

    Maybe Rory Bremner wasn’t so far off the mark.

    Bremner’s another giant British phoney as well. Fair enough if he was a YES Scot, didn’t want to piss off the BBC etc, but he played this undecided nonsense right up to that last YES poll that kicked off THE VOW shyste, then he went UKOK apeshit.

    C4 had a tv ref debate and Bremner sat with all kinds of hard right tory boys, enraged old wing commanders, posh brain damaged ruggerbuggers, red tory tractor-ed’s, all going beetroot red with fury at anyone YES. And they won, so now Bremner’s back to being undecided but still loves the idea of the union and how wonderful it was, is and always will be.

    Anither sneaky shit, just like all the rest.

  43. Roll_On_2015 says:

    OT

    I don’t know how many people watched Alex on BBC Question Time at Liverpool on 23/10/2014.

    For those who didn’t here is Alex on top form.
    .

  44. Cactus says:

    Braw!

    WoS normalised as Main Stream Online Media (MSOM) and surely has been for a while now.

    I imagine many of the YES voters also accessed the BBC’s online website for political content, to make a direct comparison to theirversion of events‘.. you know.. for entertainment purposes only 🙂

    So I think it’s safe to say, Wings leads the way.

  45. msean says:

    I have to say that pre indyref,I never ever read anything in the broadsheet press titles,only through wings have I had an insight into those kind of publications through links. Wings actually made me more widely read in respect of these publications. Turns out I hadn’t been missing anything.

    When folk used to repeat lines they heard on television, things like the legendary “I need more information” or everyones favourite “there isn’t enough information” ,all the information needed was online in various sources,you just had to look for it on your computer or phone or such device.There are libraries up and down the land for those unconnected. Its all there.

  46. galamcennalath says:

    Proud Cybernat says:
    ” I suppose we need to know what our enemy is up to in order to counter their keech.”

    Most of the MSM website visits I make are from links posted here. And, usually it will be to an archive.is copy of the page. That, I reckon, does count as viewing their content although their actual websites get visited far less frequently.

    As for getting more NO voters to come the Wings, I think we do need to crowd fund some traditional advertising.

    How about … “STV Weather, brought to you by Wings Over Scotland .Com”

  47. HandandShrimp says:

    The measure of Wings success is how much and often our Onionist brethren say they hate it.

    It is clear that most read it 🙂

  48. Proud Cybernat says:

    @ Fireproofjim says:
    4 July, 2015 at 3:54 pm

    “Time is on our side as the younger web using demographic become the majority. Hope it doesn’t take too long.”

    I did a study into this very recently, looking at the various age bands, % of votes for YES/NO, age mortality rate across all bands, % of new voters voting YES/NO etc. Many other factors.

    All things remaining equal and ignoring the general momentum towards indy, it looks like YES/NO parity will be reached in around 7.5 years.

  49. heedtracker says:

    HandandShrimp says:
    4 July, 2015 at 5:14 pm
    The measure of Wings success is how much and often our Onionist brethren say they hate it.

    “Hate’s” putting it mildly but mind that SLab zealot Welsh Niclas on the old Graun Cif? He brought WoS to the attention of rancid Graun’s Cif, if only by his fury, fear and loathing of everyone and anyone voting YES for Scotland’s democracy. So if you’re out there swearing Niclass, thanks!

    Actually he also farted out assorted twitter red and blue tory britnat lunatics too, history woman, Jon Ruddy, Dr Scott Thinks, silly old Duncan Hothersausage etc so its not all good.

    At least they all got wiped out May 7, but its only made them all even more bonkers.

  50. The Man in the Jar says:

    I would summarize by saying that a lot of “No” voters are probably wilfully ignorant. “Ignorance is bliss” and all that. They will be frightened of visiting Wings and other indi sights as it will upset their cosy wee UKOK world. It must be awful to be frightened of the truth. That and the effects of the “Evil separatist cybernats” propaganda. (Pure evil so they urr!)

    One way to counter this is to do it the hard way and get out there and convert them one on one. A few gentle nudges can often work better than one big push.

  51. Chitterinlicht says:

    @heedtracker nails it.

    I watched that debate on C4 but deleted it next day after no vote in anger.

    I would live to watch it again. All sorts of things were said very telling – the good the bad and the ugly of unionist Britain were on as well as all top Yes side (except Wings sadly) people.

    Anyone got any links it as I can’t find it?

    Got into a tweet chat with Rory Bremmner after at coz I challenged him coz he was talking pish. An hour later we were agreeing. He was all over the place.

  52. So three out of ten NO fu=kers still go to BBC as first port of call… FFS!

  53. heedtracker says:

    Chitterinlicht says:
    4 July, 2015 at 5:50 pm
    @heedtracker nails it.

    I watched that debate on C4 but deleted it next day after no vote in anger.

    It was odd watching Bremner’s reasonably cheeky satirist, jovial bonhomie mask start slipping, then drop off his flabby pooch completely into usual angry bitter UKOK toryism against YES people at least trying to debate possible future Scottish policy and statehood.

    Then there was a tory boy Sir Hoohaa or tother, enraged at YES because his dad had flown Lancs over Germany with a frightfully decent jock type, or that tory boy ruggerbugger that raged, “you all loved the Scottish Commonwealth Games didnt you? Well that’s good enough!” I think that was Gavin Hastings and I think he actually climbed on stage too.

    Elites have probably only ever survived by hiring top shills, tax accountants and tough guy goons.

  54. Grouse Beater says:

    Apropos nothing at all – just for weekend entertainment:

    http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1v9

  55. john king says:

    O/T
    I have a question,
    does Andy Murray really need some knob in the crowd to shout “come on Andy” to make him do his job?
    is it likely he’ll sit and eat deep fried Mars bars and drink Buckfast if some arsehole doesn’t shout “come on Andy”
    SHUT THE F**K UP!

    23 stroke rally holy shit!

    that is all (working tomorrow) 🙁

  56. john king says:

    Isn’t it interesting the No voters choose to avoid any sites that MAY enlighten them,
    what are they afraid of?
    Are they concerned about how they will appear when they look in the mirror?
    http://tinyurl.com/osvtv6c

  57. dakk says:

    Not bad going for a voluntary blog now crowdfunded at around £120 000 last year,up against a State Broadcaster with budget of £3 500 000 000 P/a coerced out of citizens under threat of imprisonment for non payment.

    The other MSM monoliths also have massive financial backing with big business and billionaire benefactors supporting them which allows them the comfort of long term viability to propagate their agenda.

    The sustainability of the alternative media like Wings still concerns me as BBC, the Barclays,Murdochs and Scott Trusts of this world can play the long game with their unimaginable wealth.

    I’ll throw in a couple of quid to the cause for what it’s worth. Keep up the good work.

  58. Dorothy Devine says:

    John , no he does not need the pillocks shouting “‘mon Andy” but did you see the lassie with the saltire wrapped round her? You had to be quick to see her – camera panned off her mighty quickly.

  59. G4jeepers says:

    I can’t believe the No sites get that many visits.

    Must be all the links folks put up here wi-oot archiving 😀

  60. john king says:

    I saw her alright Dorothy,
    any quicker and they could have been accused of subliminal advertising. 🙂

  61. john king says:

    G4jeepers says
    “I can’t believe the No sites get that many visits.

    Must be all the links folks put up here wi-oot archiving”

    Good point
    are we listening guys?

  62. heedtracker says:

    Grouse Beater says:
    4 July, 2015 at 6:23 pm
    Apropos nothing at all – just for weekend entertainment:

    Nice reportage on Malibu GB. One of the biggest shocks on these beach house mansions around LA, is the massive property taxes they pay, $50,0000 – $100,000 a year for their council tax. State and federal taxation varies in the US but in comparison, exact same super rich mansion taxation in teamGB is peanuts.

    TeamGB toryboy world say this nothing of a council tax here in the yewkay attracts investment n shit but it’s still an incredibly strange wealth tax comparator.

    If you go anywhere near the super rich neighbourhoods around say Hampstead, London, there’s permanent unarmed plain clothed private security guards on every street corner.

    Same super rich Hampstead’s barely a 10 minute drive from Tottenham High Road, where the last mass riots kicked off in 2011. Its been 4 years so it won’t happen again eh?

  63. BornOptimist says:

    Just because some (maybe all) media is biased doesn’t mean you shouldn’t look at opposing views. It pays to know your enemy. And, comparing different viewpoints gives one additional insights. So, long live WoS and (less cheerfully) the BSBC (British State Broadcasting Commission). Now if only we can get No voters to adopt this outlook – probably difficult given that they are of a fearful and conservative (small c) disposition.

  64. Tam Jardine says:

    Dorothy Devine

    I was just thinking how nice it is there is a tennis match going on in the background of this footage of half a dozen knobbers with union jacks on their heids.

    Jesus cameraman, get a room.

  65. The Moidart says:

    Evening guys. Hope all are well. I’ve only ever watched msm news to dissect it and read the truth between the lines. Unfortunately I can’t watch bbc anymore as I vowed not to when I called them i will never watch a corrupt lying deceitful organisation which protects paedophiles and cancelled my license. I also have my response written down should they come to my door . U should type bbc corruption on YouTube incidentally. It’s sickening. Ps. U will be hard pushed to convert many no voters. They’re political basis is from a foreign country 325 years ago. Fools!!!!

  66. Marcia says:

    Commonspace and Newsshaft are our new kids on the block and they seem to be finding an audience. I see no listing for Scot Goes Pop or Munguin’s Republic. The Newsnet figure of 5% must be disappointing for Derek Bateman.

  67. The Moidart says:

    Ps… I only meant the no voters I know. The whole three of them. Lol ????

  68. HandandShrimp says:

    I like the new Newsnet…very swish but it doesn’t update as often as Wings. Good articles and well worth reading but Wings is much more interactive. It is a different beast altogether.

  69. john king says:

    Gaunyersel Andy

  70. ArtyHetty says:

    Yep, it’s WoS, then some links if interesting enough via comments, I love reading ScotGoesPop, Tarff Advertiser, Lallands Peat worrier etc…others via excellent blogs, just wish I had more time to follow more sites and blogs AND read the odd book! Forget the housework.

    Ditched bbcbias a few years ago, even the radio bias drove me to ditch those too…
    The no lot prefer to be fed pap it seems. When and how did the beeb become so prescriptive and the platform for state propoganda? Brrr.

    Either way, I guess it’s very effective, as most folks can’t see that it’s controlling them!

  71. galamcennalath says:

    For Scottish news I use an RSS newsfeed aggregator on my IPad. The Newsify app. It scans and imports news updates from Wings, Bella, Scot goes pop, Wee Dug, NewsNet, iScot, Business for Scotland and some others, PLUS all press releases from SNP, SSP and Scot Greens. There’s not much happens politically which slips through this collection.

    For world news I have another aggregation from all sorts of non-UKOK sites. Al Jazeera, CBC, France24, Reuters. Spiegel, CNN, Times of Israel and others. Not many international stories slip through here either!

    No BBC, Telegraph, Guardian etc etc etc.. Technology lets me avoid them unless someone points out something worth ridiculing!

  72. ben madigan says:

    totally O/T people
    I found this wee vid and hope it will raise a smile as we wait for the results of the greek referendum tomorrow

    https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/germany-vs-greece-the-olympic-stadium-final/

  73. Fireproofjim says:

    Good work Andy!
    Regarding the “C’mon Andy” idiots. They always wait till all is quiet as they love their own voices.
    Same clowns shout “get in the hole” at golf matches. Thereby showing their total ignorance of the game.

  74. ScottieDog says:

    Gosh,
    Hope they’re going to outlaw these nasty nationalistic flags from Wimbledon….
    http://www.santabanta.com/gallery/sports/wimbledon-2004/fans-of-britains-tim-henman-keep-warm-under-a-st/7323/

  75. Rock says:

    As many Yes voters get their political news from Pravda GB as do from WoS?

    I can only hope that they do it just to see what the enemy is saying.

    Only Pravda GB stands between Scottish independence and continued colonial rule.

  76. asklair says:

    Took me a long time to realise the power behind WOS, its all of us.

  77. Rock says:

    HandandShrimp,

    “I like the new Newsnet…very swish ”

    Do they still have a regular David Torrance article?

  78. Grouse Beater says:

    Until you dissect it individual journalist by individual journalist, it’s almost impossible to discern how the Guardian, with all its liberal sensibility, it’s campaigns for democratic justice, its support of the welfare state, and its dislike of warlike nations, can turn around and tell the Scotland it’s better off controlled by England.

  79. Thepnr says:

    O/T Project fear Greek style, fecking disgusting.

    Fear is all the establishment have. There is no such thing as progressive or forward looking. There is only fear.

    “Will there be cash on Monday? A big red “X” crosses it out.” ect ect.

    https://archive.is/l4KP1

  80. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Proud Cybernat at 5.43

    What is it that seems to make so many people believe that elections are decided by sections of the population dying off

    It’s nonsense.

    Elections are decided by folks changing their minds (and coming out or staying at home at election time).

  81. Rock says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell,

    “The difficult bit is getting them here in the first place.”

    The apostles of “free speech” have an embargo on W O S for a reason.

    No where else are their lies so openly, totally and so quickly exposed as on this website.

    78% of Yes readers not visiting W O S for political news supports my view that a very large proportion of Yes voters came from the folks on the housing estates, thanks to the excellent work of the RIC.

    As I have been saying often, those are the people we must keep engaged and aware.

    There is absolutely no point in pandering to the 70% elderly British Nationalists and 90% selfish middle classes. They would only vote Yes over their dead bodies.

  82. Joemcg says:

    Hmm..seems to prove no voters are ignorant or just CHOOSE to be ignorant. Suppose it’s unsurprising then that they voted no.

  83. Grouse Beater says:

    Do they still have a regular David Torrance article?

    Always been suspicious of his motives and unimpressed by his writing. So much of it is insipid preamble amounting to small talk. He took serious exception to my barbed question, “Must every BBC programme on independence include vapid remarks from the asinine David Torrance?”

    I’m prepared to debunk any of his ‘articles’ paragraph by paragraph but he blocks criticism. Another hack who rose without trace thanks to BBC Scotland.

  84. heedtracker says:

    Rancid The Graun’s excellent devo economics debate this evening but its for the real North, not their irritating and uppity north north. Its funny how Scots devo only gets Libby Carrell etc taking a long hard whizz all over devo for their Scotland region but anyway

    https://archive.is/PdKdf

  85. Craig P says:

    Rev – that 22% is only us Wingers being thorough and making sure we are getting the unionist point of view as well, and where better to go for that than bbc.co.uk 😉

  86. Schrödinger's cat says:

    Ot
    Just saw a poll showing
    Snp 60%
    Lab 19%
    Tories 15%

    For holyrood

  87. Fred says:

    I see Torrance is a member of the Cunninghame Graham Society. Don Roberto would have galloped over the likes of Torrance, the horse shiteing as it went. 🙂

    Old gaucho trick.

  88. Thepnr says:

    @Schrödinger’s cat

    Looks good but won’t be satisfied until Labour are on 0% and they are no longer welcome in any home in Scotland.

  89. galamcennalath says:

    @Thepnr
    @Schrödinger’s cat

    Poll looks good.

    I don’t really know why, but I somehow feel it would funny if the red Tories drop below the blue Tories. Not that I have any positive feelings for the blues.

    Perhaps it’s because the reds have been trying to mimic the original blues, and cheap knock-offs don’t deserve to succeed.

  90. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    If I can return to a point I keep making we win the next referendum when we establish with a majority of people living in Scotland that we are self supporting and self sufficient (with or without oil and gas revenues).

    This we have not done which allowed Better Together to frighten sections of our population into voting NO.

    I’m not suggesting that this is easy. With the whole media prepared to tell lies on the issue it is not.

    It has taken some sections of the independence movement some tile to realise the problem. Many like me have never had any doubt that Scotland and the Scots are perfectly able to run a small clever,resource rich Scotland and have always been motivated by national self respect that comes from that . But not everybody has that confidence and belief.

    But bit by bit we are getting there. The online community tells the truth and exposes the lies. Once people understand that they have been lied to – and more importantly are persuaded that they have been treated like half wits by the liars – they change their vote.

    This is our first priority.

    Establishing that austerity is hugely damaging is no use to us if many people believe we could do no better on our own.

  91. SOG says:

    OT perhaps, and about the EU, but this article shows the links between the BBC and the CBI. In case anyone had doubts…

    http://conservativewoman.co.uk/david-keighley-big-business-and-big-broadcasting-how-the-establishment-stitches-up-the-europe-vote/

  92. Rock says:

    Grouse Beater,

    “Do they still have a regular David Torrance article?”

    “Always been suspicious of his motives and unimpressed by his writing.”

    Suspicious? I don’t think there is any doubt left about his motives, if ever there was any.

    The question is why did Newsnet use cash collected from pro-independence supporters to pay this biased unionist?

    And are they still paying him?

    As if there was any shortage of unionist views.

  93. Cadogan Enright says:

    Clearly we will have to emerge from the web and engage with these voters by other means

    – posters

    – videos

    – humour

    – music and song

    and, lets remember Greece tonight http://www.facebook.com/councillorcadogan.enright/photos/a.212705092245349.1073741827.212441502271708/433824723466717/?type=1&theater

  94. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Can’t be long until IDS unveils another Tory ploy to reduce poverty stats and eliminate the need for food banks – sew people’s lips together (for a small fee, naturally).

  95. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “This we have not done which allowed Better Together to frighten sections of our population into voting NO.”

    Which sections do you think were frightened into voting No.?

    I don’t think any were.

    Those who voted No were British Nationalists for whom the economic case is irrelevant.

    And the middle classes who are doing fine and have no wish to take any risk. The economic case is already made for them.

    And those whom Labour still managed to fool, hopefully for the last time.

    Those who voted Yes were those who wanted a fairer society and an independent country, like independence seekers everywhere. They didn’t need any economic case.

    Anyone with more than one brain cell and no vested interests already knows that Scotland is economically well off.

    The emphasis should be on a fairer, more equitable society. Scotland’s prosperity must be shared by all, not just the few.

    That way we can eventually get the support of almost everyone who has been voting Labour in the mistaken belief that they were “Socialists” looking after the poor.

    Labour had been feeding on the poor for far too long.

  96. tartanpigsy says:

    That I believe was done so they wouldn’t be proscribed as a Pro Yes mouthpiece during the (lol) Purdah period, or something like that, not because anyone thought Torrance impartial.

    “Grouse Beater,

    “Do they still have a regular David Torrance article?”

    “Always been suspicious of his motives and unimpressed by his writing.”

    Suspicious? I don’t think there is any doubt left about his motives, if ever there was any.

    The question is why did Newsnet use cash collected from pro-independence supporters to pay this biased unionist?

    And are they still paying him?

    As if there was any shortage of unionist views.”

  97. Thepnr says:

    The MSM in Greece are almost wholeheartedly supporting a Yes vote so no surprise there then.

    It does make you wonder though how deeply the corruption runs, the powers that be aka the establishment can even usurp governments if that is their goal.

    Please Greece vote NO and we start fighting back.

  98. Rock says:

    tartanpigsy,

    “That I believe was done so they wouldn’t be proscribed as a Pro Yes mouthpiece during the (lol) Purdah period, or something like that, not because anyone thought Torrance impartial.”

    A stupid stand then. Trying to be devious like our unionist opponents.

    Their funds had come from pro-independence supporters. It was a betrayal to use them to pay a known biased unionist.

    WOS had no problem in registering as a pro-independence site.

  99. Marcia says:

    Rock

    Sorry but you are wrong. A lot of my pensioner friends wanted in their hearts to vote yes but were frightened into to voting No believing the propaganda they would lose their pensions if they voted Yes. I have met a few that have regretted doing so.

  100. Jim McIntosh says:

    O/T

    A couple of questions:

    1. What’s the dialling code for Greece?
    2. Would it be wrong to pick a random number and phone someone up and say “I’m from Scotland, I support you vote ‘OXI’?

  101. Truth says:

    I think this is one of the reasons the National needs to lose the strapline on supporting an independent Scotland.

    We all know what it supports. The strapline only serves to put off closed minded no voters.

    If we want to convert people, we have to make pro Indy media as accessible/inviting as possible.

  102. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Rock at 10.45

    You obviously did no canvassing and have no idea what you are talking about

  103. Thepnr says:

    The Sunday Herald front page tomorrow should have been about the referendum in Greece in my opinion.

    All Sunday papers should have it on their front page, but they wont.

  104. Marcia says:

    Jim McIntosh

    The dialling code is 00 30 – however Greece is 2 hours ahead so I’d wait until the morning in case you annoy those sleeping at the moment.

  105. Kendomacaroonbar says:

    Guys, As an old WoS furtive lurker can I respectfully ask those that haven’t visited the iScot Magazine website iscot(dot)scot to give it a go !

  106. Fireproofjim says:

    Rock@10.45
    I am sorry but you are wrong. Many pensioners whom I spoke to were sure that they would risk losing their pension, as the MSM and dear Gordon Brown had threatened this.
    As for “anyone with one brain cell knows Scotland is well off”. You and I and most of the Yes supporters know this, but many No voters were less well informed and had been convinced by years of propaganda that we are too wee, poor and small and depend on the generosity of England. They have never heard of the McCrone report for instance.

  107. Cadogan Enright says:

    Rock@10.45

    Fireproofjim is 100% right – did you do any canvassing in the referendum?

  108. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Rock.

    You typed,
    “Which sections do you think were frightened into voting No.?
    I don’t think any were.”

    I have to agree with other comments posted since your offer of opinion. When I was with Team YES Bus at City Square in Dundee, there were a substantial number of older people who believed the propaganda that they were being fed, about losing their pensions in the event of a YES vote.

    One guy, in his 70s, even thought his pension was paid from the National Insurance Centre in Newcastle.

    It’s all very well ‘thinking’ that you know what’s going on but, as others have typed, you seem to display a lack of knowledge of what was actually going on in the streets, prior to the Indy vote.

    People WERE influenced by ‘Project Fear’ – and it wasn’t their fault; it was down to underhand tactics by the unionist establishment.

  109. Ian Brotherhood says:

    I enjoy Robbie Shepherd’s ‘Take The Floor’ show on BBC Radio Scotland. I’m not a huge fan of Scottish Country/Dance music, but it feels nice as background, at low volume.

    The enjoyment was ruined this evening.

    I’d appreciate any information from people who are knowledgeable – is the tune played (as part of a medley) at 1.02.34 known as anything other than ‘The Cry Was No Surrender’?

    Here’s the link to the I-Player version of tonight’s show. Shepherd’s introduction to the medley (involving some names I could not decipher) starts at the 1-hour mark:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b061212z

  110. Iain More says:

    On Net it is WoS, Bella Caledonia, Weegingerdug and more than once a week. I buy the National daily anyway just to annoy the Brit Nats behind the counter. They hate having to stock it and worse go out of their way to hide it behind Brit Nat filth on the shelves.

    I no longer use Newsnet. I was disgusted by it giving space to Torrance after all the money I gave it. I considered that a betrayal.

  111. Capella says:

    Like many Commenteers have said, this is my first port of call for news and comment on news. I gave up the MSM and feel so much better informed. Let’s go to the primary sources such as parliament tv, scottish parliament tv, the MET office for weather, live streams for sporting events and public demos etc. and websites such as WoS for daily comment on current events. Anyone who relies on the MSM for information is sadly deprived.

    Congratulations Stu on being the primary media source for the independence movement.

  112. ArtyHetty says:

    Aww, I actually thought Rock has a point and I did canvass. It certainly takes all sorts, but my very well off neighbour even said she had a copy of the Wee Blue Book, when we had a very long conversation just before 18th Sept last year. It made nae difference, we were ‘far too poor’. They read right wing msm on a daily basis. Having said that I met some no voting older ladies who feared for their pensions, bus passes and fuel payments as a Labour canvasser had told them it would all be taken away if they voted yes!

    But, the folks I know,and neighbours who voted no, are all very well off, and would like to keep it that way thank you. To them Independence meant nothing, just a stupid idea, why would they want to change things?

    I also sent the McCrone report to no voting friends and even just acquaintances, made no difference whatsoever, all have cosy lives, they could not be bothered with such facts put in front of them.

    Some were scared into voting no, many were too complacent and comfortable in their lives. It should be a very different story in Greece tomorrow…

  113. Fireproofjim says:

    Ian Brotherwood
    The tune is actually called “Derry’s Walls”. And as you know is a favourite of our Orange Order pals!
    It commerotes the siege of Londonderry in the 17th Century. and if you can avoid the political/religious/ bigotry elements which have grown up around it, it is actually a pretty good tune.

  114. Thepnr says:

    @Kendomacaroonbar

    I despair, right on their doorstep is a quality monthly magazine yet many are yet to put their money where their mouth is.

    This is an issue for all the pro indy sites all of which need funding in order to survive. Independnce Live for example only just reached their fund target on Indigogo at the last minute yet even today they brought those that would care to watch the following

    Hands Off Holyrood live from Edinburgh
    http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/hoh

    and Scotland Stands with Greece: NO to austerity
    http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/swg

    If you are working and can afford say a fiver a month then please consider subscribing to the iScot magazine or making a donation to Indy Live of any of the other worthwhile causes out there.

    This site is the third voice then if even 1% of those readers could spare a fiver we would be assured of ventures like the above surviving.

    I subscribe to both but as I am working with no kids to bring up I can afford it, the hard bit is just making the effort to subscribe. Take 5 minutes and help Scotland proper. The media is mainly our enemy and we need as many friends as we can get.

    Please go visit http://iscot.scot/

  115. Dr Jim says:

    I live in a heavily populated pensioner area and they were terrified of a Yes vote
    They were convinced they would lose their pensions because they don’t follow politics they only know what the BBC and papers told them

    To get them to vote SNP at the GE wasn’t easy but they did it because they saw no threat to their money and we convinced them it didn’t mean Independence

    That was the clever thing that that Nicola Sturgeon (praise her name) did that made sure we got the frightened people’s votes

    These are people in their 80s upwards and if their were an Independence vote tomorrow they’d vote No again
    even if in their hearts they’d like to vote Yes and many of them have told us that

    The Greeks unfortunately are facing the same threats as our old folk did
    You just can’t hold it against them if they vote Yes when it’s borne out of genuine terror and they’re pretty hard
    done by at the moment

    Fear is the easy weapon of the bully

    BTW (praise her name) is a wee joke nicked from BBC Scotlandshire

  116. G4jeepers says:

    Pensions

    I spoke at length with my mum on this subject during the run in to the referendum and she was of the opinion that the Govt had already stripped back her pension during the Broon/Flipper period. Tax coded, tax on (small) private pension, tax on interest from savings, forced to split her savings after Northern Rock crashed etc all contributed to decreasing her income to a state where, basically, as far as she could make out there was/is nowhere left to tax.

    She’s 81 and nobodys fool but many of her friends fell for the BT hook, line & sinker.
    She still has her YES poster up in her window and wears her Frack Off badge to the shops 😉

  117. desimond says:

    Among people who voted Yes in the independence referendum, incidentally, Wings is now the joint-top source for online political content:

    1= The BBC (22%)
    1= Wings Over Scotland (22%)

    Yes voters and BBC

    #ashtonished

  118. call me dave says:

    Greece: The Observer

    https://archive.is/FKaTG

  119. Iain More says:

    My thoughts are with Greece tonight and the hope that they will as a Nation stand up to the bullying and blackmail tactics of the EU and the corrupt International Markets. I would take great pleasure in them giving the BBC a poke in the eye as well.

  120. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood
    What Robbie Shepherd says is:

    “Song tunes by Hugh Foss. Reel, Caller Herrin, lyrics by Lady Nairn to a tune by Nathaniel Gow.
    The the Halls of Montezuma, the official hymn of the US marine corps.
    Then God Bless the Prince of Wales, Achilee Heroes, Achilee a small village in county Armagh and Lily O, Columbia the Gem of the Ocean, the Inniskillen Dragoons and ending with The Minstrel Boy.”

    No mention of Derry. As Robbie Shepherd is very North East Doric it is quite possible he has no idea of any OO significance in any of the tunes mentioned.

  121. Thepnr says:

    Want to know something? Probably not but I’m going to give you my opinion anyway.

    I’ll start with a fact, some in Scotland voted Yes and others voted No. Their is no one though who could look at a stranger and say with any certainty “that is a Yes voter” or “that is a No voter”.

    So far I’d guess we agree? The truth is that old people, young people. foreigners, OO types, poor and rich all voted Yes and No.

    I truly believe that it was not so much our differences that swayed our opinion but much more likely our knowledge. Our beliefs are enforced by our knowledge and if you knowledge came from Wings for example it’s likely you would vote Yes whether rich or poor.

    If it came from the BBC, Daily Record or Daily Mail I’d guess you may have voted No.

    So let’s drop the analysis of the demographic of those that voted for a referendum that is in the past and concentrate on providing an alternative information source for those that are in the dark.

    Support the new media and just as importantly do it yourself. You have a good Scottish tongue in yer heid!

  122. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Capella (12.28) –

    Much appreciated. 🙂

    I could’ve guessed at the names Robbie mentioned, but would’ve had to then spend yonks on Google verifying them.

    I hope dear Robbie (and I mean that – I love what he does) isn’t aware of what that tune summons amongst his West-coast audience. It’s just such a pity that it happened to be broadcast at the height of the ‘marching season’.

    Synchronicity’s a strange thing – sometimes!

  123. Thepnr says:

    @Iain More

    My thoughts are with Greece tonight and the hope that they will as a Nation stand up to the bullying and blackmail tactics of the EU and the corrupt International Markets.

    Totally with you on that, I believe it will be a No vote and rightly so. We can no longer allow the bankers to dictate how we should live our lives.

    Go Greece and show us the way.

  124. Smithie says:

    Thepnr @ 12:40pm , that has to be the best summing up yet.nail on head moment.Your correct, stop analysing and talk to people of all ages. Fight for our country…doffs cap.

  125. Capella says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood
    I just checked the town name in Co Armagh and it seems to be spelt Aghinlig. No more info on Wikipedia so don’t know if there is any Orange connection.

  126. Capella says:

    RT isn’t listed in that poll. Here’s some news from them.
    The extremism of David Cameron
    http://rt.com/op-edge/271663-david-cameron-terrorism-islam/
    The British Gov funds, arms and trains Daesh. Then has the hypocricy to feign shock when British citizens join them.

  127. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Thepnr at 12.40

    Good post.

  128. Macart says:

    @Thepnr 12.40

    Great post and very well said fella. 🙂

  129. majestic12 says:

    If I may bring something else into this debate, and I don’t want to be pedantic, so I shall put my thoughts into point form, as I was trained, so as not to waffle on, which I can do with great skill, so have to curb it.

    I am schooled in psychology, psychotherapy and hypnosis ( amongst other things) and my thoughts are with Rock, in various postings. If you will indulge….

    1). The conscious, analytical, day-to-day mind makes no decisions about anything. All decisions are made at an unconscious level then filtered up to the conscious. The unconscious makes up 90% of our thinking and crucially, our feeling.

    2). On balance, most of our decisions, therefore, are made with the heart, and not the head. I use this as a convenient analogy, as all decisions are made by the brain. But most are informed by emotion.

    3). This is why hypnotherapy is so powerful, as it accesses the unconscious in at least 50% of those who seek it out.

    4). No voters, who at heart are more British rather than Scottish, will never change that position, and will strenously avoid information sites like this because they do not want their mind to be changed. They “feel” British. Unfortunately, we need to leave these people behind and not waste energy on conversion.

    5). The open goal is the Scots who are Scots before they are British, but are ambivalent about the “day-to-day” reality of Scottish independence. Could it work? They have been told no, in so many ways, by the Unionists.

    6). I was initially surprised by how little the SNP referred to emotional Scottishness, and how much they tried to pummel home the logistics of a successful independendent Scotland, through economic statistics, our rich resources, our continuing use of the pound, our membership of the EU, our retaining the Queen, our oil and gas, our innate resourcefulness and intelligence, our innovative work in science and medicine, our excellence in renewable energy technology, our net contribution to the Exchequer, our pledges (UK pledges) on pension promises, our continuing free services etc, etc, all logical and analytical pleas to the conscious mind. I then realised how this had to be done, and done well, as a first step. Undoubtedly it influenced some voters into gathering up their pride, but not enough, if you are to believe the referendum result. Independence had to be put on a solid, doable foundation.

    7). Now, the next step. I firmly believe, and Westminster is helping enormously, that Scots have to “feel” independence, at a gut level, as the best foot forward. We cannot make people log onto sites like this, nor stop them reading daily trash, but the SNP government, best placed, and other independence groups can start playing the “heart” card. It is what will bring us success. Every independence movement, from the Hebrews in Egypt and Babylon, to the Irish, from Gandhi to Mandela, from Chavez ( economomically) to Connolly, from Syriza to Podemos, from Havel to Solidarity has, or will win on the emotions and feelings of the people, not on economic realities. Between now and the next Scottish election and/or plebiscite we all have to work more on the hearts rather than the minds of the ditherers, and with a fair wind following, the English unionist parties, including Labour, will do most of the work for us.

    Don’t all jump on me, now, oh well, you can if you want to. Living down south I miss a good old Scots barney. Here they just change the subject and talk polite stuff, or tell me the Jocks are a bunch of scrounging wankers. My other half, who is English and a member of the SNP, has to hold me down sometimes.

  130. majestic12 says:

    Capella @1.38

    Dare I say I told you so? Good on you for putting up this link. The hypocrisy is astounding. We should have been supporting Assad instead of funding Daesh through our “allies” in the region, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Israel. And now we want to bomb Syria? If it were up to me I would bomb Saudi out of existence, the most evil tyranny on the planet, with our American friends a close second. Well, I wouldn’t, because I’m a decent person, but it’s what I feel. I’ll probably be quarantined now. Things we don’t talk about.

  131. Roll_On_2015 says:

    OT

    The UK is now a two tiered system.

    Bottom Tier:

    The Have-Nots

    Number of young homeless people in Britain is ‘more than three times the official figures’

    Top Tier:

    The Have-Lots

    London is now the global money-laundering centre for the drug trade

    Isn’t our government at Westmidden just wonderful?

  132. ian says:

    Living in France Wings,Bella and Scot goes pop are the only political sites i read but i probably visit them at least three times a day at meal times.I was one of many who went along with the line being fed by the unionist media who thought he was reasonably informed ,little did i know.Its the lethergic low information voter that you have to get to ,i have family who fall into this category.

  133. Malcolm says:

    Folks, don’t be blinkered int only reading the sites you agree with.
    Read the Unionist side too. Some people actually belive the Daily Mail and the BBC.
    So we must be able to counter these arguments with truth and fact.
    Independence will be won by people like us converting soft/ misinformed No’s to Yes voters.
    Keep at it, the tide is moving rapidly the way of a free and independent Scotland.
    And then I will never read the Mail again!!! Lol.

  134. Ghillie says:

    Well done Wings! Well done Rev Stu!!

    Well said thepnr @12.40 am and Cappela earlier = )

    And as this day dawns, my thoughts and prayers are with the people of Greece.

    Greece will overcome.

  135. Ken500 says:

    Polls give a small sample of a relevant small cross section and should be treated with caution, especially with regard to methology. Some Polls can be manipulated and used to gerrymander election results.

  136. Mealer says:

    Rock 10.45
    Blethers.

  137. Mealer says:

    Thepnr 12.40
    An excellent post,my old friend!

  138. Ken500 says:

    Torrance was commenting on Newsnetscotland before Bateman took over. Many people stopped supporting Newsnet because Torrance was employed.

    Siince Bateman took over Newsnet has become boring. It used to have good scopes, be more sharp and controversial. Reflecting Bateman’s need to control, delete and ban. (BBCish)

  139. crazycat says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood (and Fireproof Jim and Capella)

    The “No Surrender” song is sung to the tune known as “Derry’s Walls”, which is also (originally? I think so) “God Bless the Prince of Wales”, which is what RS called it. He may very well have no idea of its significance in NI and the west of Scotland.

    The tune was apparently written by Henry Brinley Richards, with the original words being in Welsh (Ar Dywysog Gwlad y Bryniau) by John Ceiriog; it had its first outing at the Carmarthen Eisteddfod in 1862 to celebrate (bleugh) the forthcoming marriage of the future Edward VII and Alexandra of Denmark.

    None of that history would lead anyone not in the know to suspect it had sectarian connotations, I think, although Wiki refers to its other use.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Bless_the_Prince_of_Wales

  140. scottieDog says:

    @malcolm

    I’m surrounded MSM readers everyday at work so I’m kept abreast of what scroungers we are in Scotland. Every single day I hear phoney economics spouted from the mail or telegraph so luckily I don’t have to blacken my hands with the print edition.

    The daily mail is a bit like ABBA. No one admits to liking it or taking it seriously yet many people seem to whistle it’s tune.

  141. Alastair says:

    smithy at 2.08

    I hope if Carmicheil’s mischievous amendment gets accepted the Scottish Government enact “Barnett” type consequentials and threaten to reduce the subsidies to Orkney and Shetland buy the amout of the potential benefits. Thanks to Mr Carmichael who hasn’t thought this through.You can’t have it both ways.It would mean O&S carrying the risk of being able to raise the revenue. Ferry subsidy and other project fears. Heard this before somewhere?

  142. Mealer says:

    Majestic12 3.55
    Yep.If we spend the next referendum campaign arguing over the fine detail we will lose that referendum too.It has to come down to whether people believe in Scotland or not.

  143. Mealer says:

    Alistair at 9.01
    I’m not in favour of punishing communities for their MPs actions.

  144. Schrödinger's cat says:

    In May, 25% of Scotland voted labour! support in this last poll shows labour on 19%
    Whether this 6% would vote yes in indyref2 is another question, but the fact they have crossed the floor and are willing to support the snp would at least highlight the fact that they are not died in the wool unionists
    A very promising poll

  145. Ken500 says:

    Carmichael is irrelevant and should resign.

  146. Fireproofjim says:

    So many people on Wings seem to know what the Greek referendum means. I don’t.
    I have just seen Greek people being interviewed on Sky TV and they all seem to have totally different opinions on what Yes or No will bring about.
    Some say Yes will mean leaving the Euro and defaulting on their debts. Some say No will mean staying in the Euro and defaulting on their Debts. Most are bewildered.
    The Ballot paper is totally confusing and has been overtaken by recent events.
    I am so sorry for the Greek people, who have been so badly let down by their corrupt and venal governments over the last thirty years.
    There are only 90 Euros left per person in the Greek treasury, and I think there should be consideration of an emergency plan (like the Marshall plan which put Germany back on its feet in 1946).
    Greek Governments may be useless but we can’t let the people starve.

  147. Geoff Huijer says:

    Majestic12 @ 3.55

    Totally agree with this summation.

    Challenging long-held beliefs can be done over time,,
    however, the ‘push back’ is that people do not want
    to see their whole belief system dismantled before
    their very eyes; hence they can tend to avoid anything
    (incl websites) that will challenge them.

    I respect politicians who through time or through
    becoming informed & change their point of view. To me it
    shows a willingness to challenge their own beliefs & a
    preparedness to alter them when confronted with new (to them) information.
    The press, howver, will drag up ‘ah but you said nukes were great 20 years ago’
    (for example) if someone becomes aginst nukes.
    There is no ‘well that is intersesting, what made you change your mind?’

    Sometimes it is called ‘fear of change’ but often it is more about ‘fear of how I will look to others’.

  148. Truth says:

    @ken500 8:52

    Newsnet stifled debate long before Bateman. It had the potential to be like wings, but they saw the need to control comments.

    Unfortunately this grew arms and legs and before long you could barely say anything.

    A couple of years ago now I made some comments about Assad that must have been deemed controversial and they were removed and then I was on premoderation after that.

    The funny thing is that comment on Syria was proven to be completely correct.

    I gave up on newsnet a long time ago and didn’t see the need to return with Bateman at the helm, who whilst seeming to be a decent guy, couldn’t help but be an apologist for the BBC.

  149. JLT says:

    Well done Stuart. Glad to see the site is still rising to new heights.

    ‘Slowly, slowly …catchee Monkey’ is still a saying that seems to hold true.

    Well, this week should be an interesting one …now that Georgie-boy has finally sharpened his axe.

    There maybe a lot of screeching come early afternoon on Wednesday. Could be an interesting day for everyone here as we post on Facebook and all the other social media websites and say ‘Told you so!!! Now if you want the truth …go to ‘Wings over Scotland’ like we told you to do last year.’

  150. Ken500 says:

    The Poll shows that the majority of the sample get their information from the Internet or a public service facility. People go on Internet sites to share information.

    More people have access to television coverage than an Internet service in the UK. It is cheaper.

  151. Chris F says:

    If you want to encourage the growth of new media have a look at http://www.newsshaft.com. The team are running a CrowdFunder which has only 48 hours to go and is currently 22% short of its target.

    As well as their informative and entertaining 30-minute weekly podcast, the NewsShaft team provides daily news and politics coverage plus a daily 3-minute video news bulletin. They do a great job, but they need our help to sustain and improve their output.

    I’m sure it’s pretty safe to say that all Wingers support a challenge to the MSM, so let’s put our money where our mouth is and help NewsShaft reach their target!

  152. Ken500 says:

    An astute, knowledgeable reporter can use their unite talents to run an extremely successful Website. Well Done, Rev Stu and thanks a billion. There is nothing like Wings

  153. Ken500 says:

    Well done Andy Murray Brilliant

  154. Wuffing Dug says:

    @Capella
    @Ian Brotherhood

    The official hymn of the unionist is ‘in the halls of monty zoomer’

  155. ronnie anderson says:

    @ ROCK 9.10 ( excellent work of the RIC) YES I observed the Excellent body swerve at Save Our Holyrood gig, whereby very few RIC members stayed to support us. Have they forgotten the YES campain so quikly, as with other groupings.

    That Yes campain gave many other political groups a higher profile & we need to GET BACK to that co-operation & support every event thats attacking the Westminster system.

    BBC / STV / Daily Record,(hopfully) Demonstration will be coming up shortly & I hope every Political Grouping get out there & show their support as SCOTS.

  156. heedtracker says:

    Fireproofjim says:
    5 July, 2015 at 9:30 am
    So many people on Wings seem to know what the Greek referendum means. I don’t.

    Follow the money.

    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/government-debt-to-gdp

    In teamGB, City crashed, borrowing shot up, rich City spivs got richer, Greece exact same, UK survived merely down to much bigger GDP/population so can borrow even more, see higher education in England.

    Greece/UK exact same pack of rich crooks with government and media in their pockets. Who’s to blame, dole Q scroungers. Get them.

  157. Grouse Beater says:

    Can’t abide all the shock and indignation over ‘How wicked Westminster and the Lords Shaft Us’. What a surprise. As if the House of Gothic Horrors would do anything else.

    This is the best thing I’ve read all day and I wrote it. 🙂
    https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/07/04/malibu-exposed/

    (PS: It’s only 10.30 am.)

  158. Simoh says:

    majestic12 at 3.55am

    Thanks for this post. The points you raise will be really important to bear in mind as we start to gear up for the billboard campaign that we hope will raise even more awareness about the existence of a very different narrative to the one consumed by many Scots like so much junk food through the MSM.

    In case you missed it, the campaign is going to be called Inform Scotland. Scunterbunnet has been working hard – the website is coming soon!

  159. Dorothy Devine says:

    Help me ! I have just visited the DT and some idiotic bints article on Angus Robertson – I know , I know I shouldn’t look and I don’t usually but temptation came my way and I could not resist a peek.

    Is there ever going to be a time when ignorant journalists don’t write click bait crap to encourage the windae lickers responses?

  160. Ken500 says:

    The House of Lords has absolutely no power apart from delay.

  161. Les Wilson says:

    Does this bring to mind, a full on ” Wings Scotland Radio”
    channel ???????

    Crowd fund start up, commercial Radio, with many features on usual subject of all things Scottish, the real deal.
    Why not.

    Probably much more than Rev envisaged but with funding for decent staff and good content, may challenge the BBC hold on Scotland more than ever. Just a thought.

  162. Socrates MacSporran says:

    Couple of slight deviations off-topic on here, to which I would like to comment.

    Derry Walls/God Bless the Prince of Wales – very similar tunes, but, if you know both tunes, the very slight differences in tempo are easy to spot. The band on Take the Floor definitely played God Bless the Prince of Wales and not Derry’s Walls.

    Sadly, the Marching Season will continue for a wee while yet. I have always liked that old joke about King William and King James, meeting-up whilst collecting the bodies on the morning after the Battle of the Boyne and agreeing: “Yes, in 300-years, who will remember the Battle of the Boyne”. Three hundred and twenty-five years on, that relatively insignificant wee joust is still being celebrated. So, it will take a wee while to wipe-out that institutionalised bigotry. We have to accept, most of the bigotry id instilled in bigots in the home, but, we could always make a start to eliminating this, by doing away with state-funded “faith schools”.

    The second O/T topic is: Andy Murray – Scottish or British?

    In purely tennis terms, he is British. Tennis in the UK is run by the Lawn Tennis Association. OK, we Scots might with good reason) feel the LTA as an organisation favours England. But, at international level – Davis Cup, Federation Cup, Olympic Games, the tennis players represent the United Kingdom.

    Scotland doesn’t compete at that level, as individual players making their way on the tours, with LTA support, Murray, the late Elana Baltacha, Jamie Murray and so forth were very much “British”.

    I therefore have no problem with them playing under the Union Flag. I do, however, have issues with clearly English voices cheering-on Murray’s opponents, as is sometimes evident during radio/TV broadcasts of his matches.

  163. ronnie anderson says:

    @ Thepnr 12.40pm [ Support the new media and just as importantly do it yourself. You have a good Scottish tongue in yer heid!]

    & How many people do we meet in our Daily Lives.

    As PR says uas it, Heid,Heart.Tongue, & direct People to Web Sites such as WOS .

  164. ahundredthidiot says:

    O/T

    Trying to get a handle on Greece situ reminds me of last Sept. MSM lined up big time. Repeaters all of them.

    As Scots toe the ‘line’ maybe Greeks will show hope over fear by voting oxi to a debt they cannot ever repay.

    Should they vote yes to accept crippling austerity, their Govt will be forced to resign and they will be on their knees like us – and all you find down here in the dirt, is dirt.

  165. Ken500 says:

    Corrupt Cameron has banned Saltires at Wimbledon (not one in sight)and banned the BBC from referring to Murray’s Mound.

  166. Capella says:

    @ fireproofjim
    A for once not too biased artcle in the BBC website about the Greek referendum. Ballot paper question not very confusing. Numbers of who is owed what. Ignore the information free video at the start.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33399718

  167. ronnie anderson says:

    OXI OXI OXI

    Whatever happened to the Signators who borrowed the money on behalf of the Greek People & made contracts with the Germans Arms Manufacturers,theres no Ermine Robes Honours system in Greece or are the compensated by the EU for being Traitors.

  168. Alastair says:

    Mealer@ 9.01

    I dont think for a minute the good people should be disadvantaged or punished for the actions of their MP. But, what mandate does he have to propose such radical amendments without laying out possible ramifications . Off coarse it is up to the people of Orkney and Shetland to influence their own affairs but what dialogue has he had with his electorate.
    He is a dangerous man and this is a move to future position O&S on territorial oil rights and being part of an independent Scotland. His comments in the press mentioned fishing and other controls and revenues but conveniently omitted oil.
    Also interesting his position and contributions to the House of Commons including votes if his election is declared void. Will it be void for the date of his election – he never existed as an MP – or from any sanction.

    The I

  169. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 5 July, 2015 at 12:21 am:

    “I live in a heavily populated pensioner area and they were terrified of a Yes vote
    They were convinced they would lose their pensions because they don’t follow politics they only know what the BBC and papers told them.”

    Dr Jim, here, from an OAP, (of some years standing), is a wee bit of real truth for you. If those terrified OAPs, of your acquaintance, have no idea of the truths about the real political scene out here in the big bad political World in Scotland they have misspent their entire lives in deliberately avoiding political matters.

    Having obviously been contemporary with these people all my life and, being by nature of an enquiring mind, I observed their various different ways of life. I watched the changing habits of the 1930s through to the 2000s and saw these people’s lives change along with the annual calendar dates.

    The average Scottish person of the 1930s has seen the scientific wonders of the old multi-battery, “Wireless”, and respectable broadsheet newspapers, which together with the old cinema, “Pathe News”, clips, were their only outside news outlets become the Establishments Propaganda weapons of Two World Wars, a cold war the massive political change of the post WWII Political landslide as a real Labour party swept into power in 1945.

    None of which the Southern Establishment were ever going to countenance becoming a lasting bulwark erected by the Hoi Polloi to rob the royalty, aristocracy and upper classes of the Establishment of their rightful places as the ruling elite atop the British class system.

    Those elderly people you speak of are but the collateral damage of the never ending class war system who allowed themselves to embrace the many distractions put in place as the new, “Opiates of the People”.

    Musical, reading, listening, viewing and other home produced patterns of leisure pastimes were changed and formerly unlawful pastimes & leisure pursuits made lawful and these people grasped these with both hands.

    Most took to such things as the TV and the dumbed down radio and other media changes as they accepted the longer Pub hours, betting shops and sopped up the Establishments propaganda like sponges and never again took much interest in what their Lords and Master were doing.

    Show me an OAP, NO voter, and I’ll show you a lazy, ignorant numptie who stopped learning on the instant they walked out of their local State School gates and who I’d warrant could tell you the TOTPs hits for the last past 65 years or the top rated films and the odds on the Grande National winners of that long period and the changing fashions in clothes over a like period.

    These ones swapped channels when Party Political Programmes were aired and skipped from the front page headlines to the gossip & sports pages of their chosen publications as they dressed in the latest fashions before dashing out for a bevvie on their way to the bingo or whatever other waste of time they favoured.

    Now I’m not against such pastimes. My point is these things come as leisure pursuits after the serious stuff and they should never replace them.

  170. ags_1888 says:

    I was on skype call to my American friend from 1 am till 3:30 am we got to talking politics and it turns out fear is thier governments tactics too(surprise surprise),anyway i asked him to check out this site and he said he already keeps up to date on our cause.
    Keep up the great work wings the world is still watching,oh and my chinese friend says look out the establishment will soon pick out ordinary people to attack to discredit us!

  171. heedtracker says:

    Corrupt Cameron has banned Saltires at Wimbledon (not one in sight)and banned the BBC from referring to Murray’s Mound.

    If only. Here in England, its often cringingly embarrassing after Scotland voted NO. Its as simple as that. We’re the sweaties, we’ll shadapp like we’re told, be nice to us please.

    Even scotch whisky sales have dropped around the globe . Well its UK scotch as Osborne tries to stop the scotch rot

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8f0a8e22-d7b6-11e4-94b1-00144feab7de.html#axzz3f0oKGopv

    “George Osborne, chancellor, cut the duty on whisky by 2 per cent in last month’s Budget “to back one of the UK’s biggest exports”. Scotch is the second biggest net contributor to UK trade, partly because of a lack of imports.

    Exports to the US, Scotch whisky’s largest market by value, fell 9 per cent last year to £750m, while Singapore, the third largest destination and a hub in Asia, imported £201m of the drink, 39 per cent less than in 2013.”

    No UKOK win correlation surely. Just one more Bettertogether bonus as UKOK rules the waves.

  172. call me dave says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Don’t hold back Robert 🙂

    PS
    Council house rents in England to go up if you earn >£30000 per annum and relief on your inheritance tax.
    Don’t you love this one nation government?

  173. DerekM says:

    Fine figures Rev but i do think the yes vote going to the BBC is just us checking out what lies they are peddling today lol

    o/t

    been checking out the Greek situation it would seem like they have the same problem with their MSM as we do,and with their big corporations,at least the Greek PM can come out and say it like it is blackmail.

    I liked one quote from a Greek girl on RT “this is not about yes or no its about democracy against financial dictatorship” how true go Greece tell them to spin on it.

  174. Grouse Beater says:

    Ken: Cameron has banned Saltires at Wimbledon

    Saw two girls sporting Saltires painted on their face.

    A ban is easy to prove; someone at the turnstile will confiscate them, unless wrapped and hidden up your sleeve.

  175. heedtracker says:

    and it turns out fear is thier governments tactics too(surprise surprise),

    Last week BBC r4 news had long thing about a suicide on a train where the victim had set himself alight in a cabin and harmed other passengers too.

    Much scary BBC details, may or may not be terrorism, stay safe in our cities plucky Brits, blitz spirit etc. But, this typical project fear style BBC fear reportage was from Japan on of the great Japanese Bullet HS rail line, other side of the planet or about 5 billion people away from BBC Broadcasting House of horror, fears, teamGB rules the waves, London.

    Be afraid, vote no change, anywhere, especially in their BBC Scotland region.

  176. Robert Peffers says:

    @G4jeepers says: 5 July, 2015 at 12:22 am:

    “I spoke at length with my mum on this subject during the run in to the referendum and she was of the opinion that the Govt had already stripped back her pension during the Broon/Flipper period. Tax coded, tax on (small) private pension, tax on interest from savings, forced to split her savings after Northern Rock crashed etc all contributed to decreasing her income to a state where, basically, as far as she could make out there was/is nowhere left to tax.

    She’s 81 and nobodys fool but many of her friends fell for the BT hook, line & sinker.
    She still has her YES poster up in her window and wears her Frack Off badge to the shops ;-)”

    Your Mum knows how many beans make five, G4peepers. (See my earlier post on the matter).

    My basic premise is that many of her generation, (I’m one), left the education system in an age when we had full employment and they instantly switched off the learning part of their brains and got down to the many new fads and pastimes that were being introduced to the general populations. Your MUM was obviously not one of those persons.

    As it happened I opted for an apprenticeship in a field that demanded constant education to keep up with the current advances in electro-mechanical engineering but I was always a person who made my own mind up and did not automatically follow the fashionable trends of the day. For example I was neither never a Teddy Boy not a MOD nor A Rocker.

    Such trends were always begun by someone elsewhere and followed by the brainless herd who are still blindly following there old trends and sop up whatever else the media tells them to believe. Your Mum thinks for herself too – and it shows.

    Oh! and by the way, two beans, a bean and a half, half a bean and a bean make five beans.

  177. Ken500 says:

    The House of Lords is an affront to Democracy. A retirement/day care centre for corrupt politicians (their associates) and unelected Lords. A gigantic waste of public money. Scotland could be Independent (hopefully) before an EVEL vote even comes. It is being tossed into the long grass because it is totally undemocratic, unequal and unworkable. Just like democracy for Scotland is in the realms of Westminster. Cameron will not be able to get it through because it breaks so many Scottish/UK/International Laws. HRA etc. Cameron has tied himself up in knots in a corrupt attempt to win an election. Cameron/Osbourne should be in jail for their corruption, defrauding and lies.

    Major called the Tories ‘bastards’.

  178. galamcennalath says:

    Panelbase independence poll ….

    Yes 47%
    No 53%

    A slight shift. What this proves, IMO, is that people are not following in any detail events at WM!

    The evidence of massive betrayal is simply not getting through to No voters.

  179. Ken500 says:

    The fiscal responsibility of Cameron/Osbourne is an illegal disgrace. They are cutting taxes and welfare benefits and increasing the debt. Totally incompetent. They should be charged with fraud.

  180. heedtracker says:

    Greek’s like you, me and everybody, know that they’re ruined which ever way they vote and they know they’ve been ruined by exact same red/blue tory elite that just got away with it here in UKOK land. We know the US bailed out teamGB banksters, Crash Gordon and Lord Darling style UK.gov borrow frenzy but who pays for it in wrecked lives and who gets the blame?

    https://profile.theguardian.com/user/id/10511313

    Everyone who’s bothered knows who this hard core far right unionist actually is.

    All the deep academic Grexit detail aside, the toryboy UKOK style fury’s directed right at the ordinary Greek people who had no control over any state finance, bankster greed and tax evasion whatsoever. But its all their own mass deluded stupid selfish fault and they’re all the deluded victims of cunning politicos lying to them.

    Familiar, Scotland?

  181. Robert Peffers says:

    I just had the best hollow laugh of the day.

    Some bloody numptie at the Silverstone F1 GP had some pop-star, (I didn’t get her name but apparently one of the former Spice Girls who married a GP driver), sung the UK/English National Anthem with the obligatory pop-star’s pronounced USAsian accent.

    Did no one foresee the irony in her doing that? God Save OUR Gracious Queen with an ulta thick faux USAsian accent.

  182. Socrates MacSporran says:

    FFS – what is this pish about Cameron banning saltires from Wimbledon.

    He doesn’t have the power to ban the saltire. Only the All-England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club has the power to ban any flag, and, as far as I am aware – not having seen such a ban publicised anywhere – no such ban exists.

    The BBC may well have issued instructions to their cameramen to avoid putting saltires on-screen, but, such an informal ban could never be proved, in all probability.

    And, even if they have issued such instructions, they will surely invoke the Mandy Rice-Davis line if questioned.

    Concentrate on the real issues, not the flim-flan.

  183. Les Wilson says:

    I am waiting to see what happens if Greece votes NO, watch for claims by Europe and the MSM that the votes were rigged.
    Democracy is not wanted in the UK, not Europe either.

  184. Ken500 says:

    There is absolutely no evidence of how anyone old, young, wealthy, religious, non religious, gender, sport, nationality voted in the Referendum. The vote is secret (for good reason). The blame game is non productive and anecdotal. A complete waste of time with no credible evidence. No Poll has or could be done with any credibility. The only evidence is of number% who vote YES or No and their locality. 70% of the elderly voters could have voted YES and 30% could have voted NO etc. A small sample Poll has no accuracy of distinction, including suspect methodology.

    The only way for credible accuracy would be to do a retrospective complete survey/inquiry of every vote counted, which is illegal and impossible, because the vote is rightly guaranteed secret.

    The Polls that were taken in the Referendum were subject to an inquiry because of inaccurate analyse. The Pollsters have conned and defrauded £Millions of private/public/punters with inaccurately analysed data. Illegal gerrymandering and influencing the result. Public polling/pollsters should be banned in the Purdah period before an Election.

  185. scott says:

    BBC told new political editor must be ‘impartial’ with Nick Robinson reportedly stepping down

    Sorry about his cancer struggle,I see the Independent are suggesting maybe Laura Kuenssberg might take over that would be worse I think.

  186. Dr Jim says:

    @Robert Peffers

    Don’t disagree on any of what you say, But, they exist
    When we do the leafleting in my area my patch is the care homes and the sheltered accommodation complexes because I’m able to gain access where before the SNP were, let’s not say banned, but denied entry by means of various spurious excuses

    Most of these folk were used to having their postal votes filled in for them or advised by the use of all the methods we know are employed to make them vote Lib Dem mostly

    They’re a mixture of what you might term social class, some wealthy, some fall into the, consider yourself lucky you live in a nice place like this paid for by the state

    The one thing they have in common is, change means bad
    It’s been very difficult to alter that because they think they’ve seen it all, where in fact like us all we’ve only seen what we’ve seen and it’s never all

    To them I’m this young fella coming round telling them about something better for their grandkids and I’m 66 years old
    Although since the change in First Minister they have softened they seem to be less disposed to dislike Nicola Sturgeon just because she’s (Wan o thae Nats) and are less angry at the idea of change
    They used to be positively vitriolic in their hatred of Alex Salmond

    Where I live there are only 6 SNP members including me out of 42 in my street and that’s a huge leap forward
    But the neighbours at least talk to me nicely now as opposed to when I first moved in

    The Lib Dem MP was in power here for 10 years and had them trained and convinced, she was an unpleasant piece of work during the GE and before
    Her Information leaflets at Referendum time were always full of Hospital scares Cancer treatment scares
    All the stuff that the elderly who might be infirm or disabled fear

    None of what I say here is to excuse not informing oneself merely to say it’s the reason some older folk don’t want to be informed because it means facing decisions they’d rather didn’t exist

    Leave me alone let me watch my grass grow and my petunias flourish and wait for Sunday till the family visit
    but I’ll definitely vote for that Sturgeon lassie next time son ( I don’t mind her )

    Having said all that we elected John Nicolson with a massive swing from the Lib Dems thanks to the new generation of slightly better off incomers and that’s a great sign for this area
    I’ve just realised I’ve written a flaming book here

  187. Ken500 says:

    @ Gerry Parker 12.55 am

    The Commons allowed the Lords to put in the clause, when it was voted in the Commons. The Commons allowed the Lords to but in the Clause. The Commons could have removed the clause and sent it back twice and then voted it through. The Commons would have allowed the Bill to go through with only 6 SNP MPs but 53 Unionist Scottish MP (elected by people in Scotland) ie in that case it was voted through the Commons with the authority of 53 Unionist Party MP’s who represented Scotland. Now there are 56 SNP MP’s and less Unionist MP’s. It is still the case that there is no democratic justice for Scotland in Westminster. So soon people in Scotland will have to vote for Independence.

    The Lords can only rejected a Bill twice, then the Commons can vote it through.

    Changed circumstances. 13 majority is an unlikely majority to get EVEL through the Commons because of Scottish/UK /International Laws and human rights legislation. Would appear the SNP, Labour/Unionist, some Tory/Unionist and others do not support EVEL. It will make no diffence to the situation because Scottish MP’s can be outvoted 10 to 1 in any case. There is no West Lothian Question. It is a myth.

  188. Robert Peffers says:

    @Alastair says: 5 July, 2015 at 9:01 am:

    “I hope if Carmicheil’s mischievous amendment gets accepted the Scottish Government”

    Let’s not get sucked into anything that Unionist earse Carmichael cares to fart out in his desperate efforts to avoid having his over-fat snout surgically removed from the Establishment’s cornucopia like trough.

    Here are the real legal facts. The Scottish Crown estates, like all other crown estates, belong to whoever is legally sovereign in the realm/(Kingdom), the Crown Estates are situated in.

    Thus in England, Wales and Northern Ireland the actual crown head, (Her Majesty the Queen of the, (three country), Kingdom of England legally owns the Crown estates but as the Kingdom of England became a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, (in 1688/9), the royal powers, sovereignty and ownership of all state property is delegated to the elected parliament to exercise.

    However, as the Scottish legal system has the people of Scotland legally sovereign then the only way the UK parliament exercises their power is via the powers the sovereign people of Scotland have delegated to their elected members sent to Westminster.

    So this guy, who is a lawyer, knows full well that the ownership of the Scottish Crown estates still legally rests with all the Sovereign people of Scotland and should thus have all profits returned to the sovereign people of Scotland and not, without the express permission of the people, be given to any one particular corner of the realm/kingdom of Scotland..

  189. Dal Riata says:

    A few days ago, some lady reporting from Greece back to her BBC TV studio, first of all had, an ‘on the ground’ report where, surprise, surprise, all four people ‘chosen’ to voice their opinions were going to be voting Yes, followed by a ‘to camera’ report where she came out with (paraphrased), ‘The Greek referendum is becoming similar to that that took place in Scotland, causing upset and disharmony to their society, and where families are being irreparably split along Yes and No lines.’

    Aye, right ye are, hen! You work for the BBC where it’s a contractual obligation to subtly, or unsubtly negate and rubbish Scotland at every opportunity. Well done. Have a biscuit. An Empire biscuit – your favourite.

  190. Bill Cruickshank says:

    Just like to echo what Susan said at the top of this thread. Your work is vital to Scotland being an independent country. Please keep going as long as your own personal circumstances allow. Thanks for everything.

  191. Kevin Evans says:

    The biggest indication of voting I came across was this quote by a middle aged gent “so what if the young mostly voted yes, just wait till they have mortgages and bills to pay and the majority of yes voters will change to no votes by the time of the next refuremdum”.

    My experience on voting intention was based on the haves and have nots. A lot of no voters were people who thought they were going to be socially and finically worse off. And if you read the “project fear” attack is was to undermine currency and wealth.

  192. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 5 July, 2015 at 9:30 am:

    “Carmichael is irrelevant and should resign.”

    And thus deny we voters the great pleasure of forcing his resignation from the post first.

  193. Robert Peffers says:

    @Geoff Huijer says: 5 July, 2015 at 9:40 am:

    Majestic12 @ 3.55

    ” … There is no ‘well that is intersesting, what made you change your mind?’

    Sometimes it is called ‘fear of change’ but often it is more about ‘fear of how I will look to others’.”

    Ahem! Ever looked at the definition of the word, “conservative”, Geoff?

    It is defined thus : –

    averse to change or innovation and holding traditional values.
    “they were very conservative in their outlook”

    synonyms: traditionalist, traditional, conventional, orthodox, stable, old-fashioned, dyed-in-the-wool, unchanging, hidebound, etc.

  194. Democracy Reborn says:

    O/T (apologies)

    Condolences to Jim Watt, ex-boxing world champion, for the loss of his daughter Michelle who took her own life age 38. Jim had already lost a son in 1995.

  195. Sassenach says:

    Ken500@1-20pm says “The vote is secret (for good reason).”

    Do you really think that voting is really ‘secret’? Would that be why all voting slips are number stamped and related to you own voter registration list number?

  196. Dan Huil says:

    Over the last couple of years I have taken on the onerous task of visiting as many pubs as possible whilst wearing my WOS badge. No offence, Rev, but the popularity of WOS is solely down to my unselfish actions of persuading other drouths in pubs around Scotland to visit your website.
    Excuse me now, duty calls.

  197. Dal Riata says:

    The BBC are so pathetic in their behaviour whenever Andy Murray is playing at that bastion of Englishness and the rule of the British upper classes over the plebs, the private members’ club known as Wimbledon. Saltires must not be shown, and when one actually is shown it is only under duress or a ‘situation out of our control’.

    Andy Murray playing Andreas Seppi yesterday: Murray wins a point in dramatic fashion, or whatever, immediate zoom-in to the seven(?) men adorned in Union Jacks and cheering. A girl with a Saltire draped over her shoulders just visible over there on the right of a crowd scene…? Quick! Cut away to another scene!

    Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! Pathetic, and utterly farcical.

    Of course, when Scotland’s First Minister had the absolute audacity to wave a Saltire when Murray won at Wimbers, the BBC must have created some kind of record in cutting away from a scene when Salmond photobombed Cameron’s ‘big moment’!

    It would be pure dead brilliant if Murray, should he be crowned the champion for 2015, pulled out a Saltire from his bag and did a lap of honour round the Centre Court waving it above his head! Imagine the right-wing frothing that would bring…! ‘kin brilliant! Go on Andy, do it… you know you want to!

  198. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ken500 says: 5 July, 2015 at 10:14 am

    “Well done Andy Murray Brilliant”

    Actually it’s well dome the whole Murray Family – The Wings Over Scotland of the Tennis World.

  199. Craig Wilson says:

    Great numbers all round, especially for Wings. For Common Space to even be close to the Daily Mail this early on is nothing short of astounding. The game has definitely changed now, but with the exception of the Herald group setting up The National, most of the old media seem to be putting their hands in their ears and hoping the SNP/Wings/Yes types will just disappear. 😀

  200. Fred says:

    Anent “Big Rich Scotland” Oil transformed Aberdeen, mebbes not all the peeps prospered but they all knew Scotland was rich and voted NO.

    Glasgow never saw this oil money and never really knew Scotland was rich but voted YES.

  201. Robert Peffers says:

    @Dr Jim says: 5 July, 2015 at 1:31 pm:

    “Don’t disagree on any of what you say, But, they exist
    When we do the leafleting in my area my patch is the care homes and the sheltered accommodation complexes because I’m able to gain access where before the SNP were, let’s not say banned, but denied entry by means of various . spurious excuses

    Ah! Dr Jim, but I have the advantage of you there. When aged 11 I was part of a group that did fund raising for good causes. It had begun as a Dramatic Society putting on shows and we were a talented lot. Anyway, we used to raise funds for all sorts around Edinburgh’s areas.

    When the group split up via folks getting hitched and so on. I began doing other volunteer work. Mainly for the aged, disabled, (mainly those with learning difficulty), and the young folks. For the past 30 odd years it has been with me wee dogs that I trained as, “Therapets”, (befrienders).

    So I’ve been doing volunteer work in Retirement homes most of my life. Now I often take the wee papillon into retirement homes and nursing homes and sometimes meet inmates there younger than myself. Believe me I’ve seen it all when it comes to political postal vote scams and at least 99.9999% of it, (first mostly in Edinburgh and then mainly Fife and Perth & Kinross), was Labour Party scams.

    I’ve even had old folks complain to me about it and asking me to take their postal votes to the post as they trusted neither the staff nor the visiting political activists. I had to, in all honesty, tell them I was an SNP activist. Yet, strangely enough, not a single one of those people then changed their mind after finding I was a political activist.

  202. Ken500 says:

    Aberdeen would be richer but with the distribution of resources south including to Glasgow which makes Glasgow richer, which do not come back. Aberdeen/shire is poorer than every other City in Scotland. Now being sorted by the Scottish Gov. Aberdeen 1/2 pop of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Got 30% less (pro rata) of every other comparable council allocation for over thirty years, including NHS funding. Glasgow and Edinburgh get £1Billion+ funding a year the Scottish Gov.

    Glasgow and Edinburgh have had By-Passes for years and pedestrianised City Centre and plenty comparable to spend on infrastructure. £2/3 Billion tram systems and £1/2Billion Commonwealth Games funding Hydros and Parliament funding. While Aberdeen could only look on and wonder while all the wealth generated disappears South – and never comes back Thanks to
    Labour/Unionists. Glasgow saw more of the Oil money (pro rata) than Aberdeen,

    Glasgow has different demographics ie population make for the Referendum vote which made a difference to the result. More people likely to vote NO because of Demographics.

    Journalist are notoriously incompetent at analysing statistics and have a problem with Maths. No comparing like with like, The revenues generated and the revenues created and which remain after redistribution are something else. There is much wealth infrastructure in Glasgow and Edinburgh and the Cental belt. Stop the wasteful Orange Marches ever week, a blight on the economy. Create jobs and cleanup the City with the revenues.

  203. Ken500 says:

    The voting slips are supposed to be kept secret/destroyed after the vote. The numbers on the slips are for admin purposes not to identify how each individual voted.

  204. Chic McGregor says:

    In Kirrie Yes Shop window, we had a monitor which was used to run a pro yes loop throughout the indyref campaign. A frequent part of that loop was a promo to try to get folk to use on line media.

    Here it is. It is silent because it was for the edification of passers by. Its a bit jerky on youtube and it is also out of date of course (bring back Duggy Dug!) but it was a kind of TV ad I suppose, albeit with a very small audience.

    youtu.be/ygG1hMEm4f8

  205. G H Graham says:

    “So yes, it does seem like once Unionist voters start reading Wings, they stop voting for Unionist parties. The difficult bit is getting them here in the first place.”

    Indeed, as any marketer worth his salt knows, causing a customer to switch from a competitive brand is key to commercial success.

    How Wings gets stubborn NO voters to even visit this website may require a solution that is partly solved with a significant investment in advertising. If indeed that’s a problem we believe that even needs to be solved.

  206. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    From working in the lower divisions of the entertainment biz over the years, I can say that ‘customers’ are creatures of habit.

    Once they find a venue (newspaper? Web site?) that suits them, they tend to stick with it – until, for some reason, it is no longer available.

    I found this in one venue I worked in for six years. On two occasions, the club had to close down for around a month. Although the reopening was well advertised to the relevant punters, on reopening, the attendance always dropped.

    Why? Because a percentage had found another venue in the meantime, which satisfied their musical tastes, so that venue became their new ‘habit’.

    What can break the Daily Record, or the Express, or the Sun, or the Daily Mail ‘habit’? As someone typed on another page a few days ago, maybe the National needs to increase its footie coverage and add the horses.

    But, how do you break existing habits? An expanded National, backed by TV, radio and billboard advertising, pushing its ‘Scottish’ credentials, could work but I’m no expert.

  207. Grouse Beater says:

    Ken500: There is absolutely no evidence of how anyone old, young, wealthy, religious, non religious, gender, sport, nationality voted in the Referendum.

    Eh? University research groups (and others) conducted the analysis after the event simply by asking selected individuals who then told them how they voted, and why.

  208. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “You obviously did no canvassing and have no idea what you are talking about”

    It was used as an excuse by the elderly British Nationalists for voting No.

    The elderly are stubborn and are not easily frightened.

    If “Project Fear” had worked, can you explain why the unionists panicked at the last minute and came up with the “Vow”?

    As to canvassing, weren’t our polls showing the Yes camp winning?

    Who was lying to the canvassers?

  209. Rock says:

    Dr Jim,

    “I live in a heavily populated pensioner area and they were terrified of a Yes vote
    They were convinced they would lose their pensions because they don’t follow politics they only know what the BBC and papers told them

    To get them to vote SNP at the GE wasn’t easy but they did it because they saw no threat to their money and we convinced them it didn’t mean Independence”

    I do not for one moment believe that the pensioners of Bearsden and Milngavie were frightened into voting No.

    They knew perfectly well that voting SNP at the Westminster election was in their interests and would have voted SNP even without you “persuading” them.

    Overall, a tiny minority might have been frightened, but the vast majority of the 70% elderly who voted No did so because they are British Nationalists, not because they were frightened.

    Now that that they know that their pensions would not be at risk, they would still vote No if there was a referendum next week.

    The “frightened into voting No because of losing pensions” is an excuse.

    Did they not give a thought to the future generations?

  210. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    No Rock, unfortunately they didn’t.

    It’s why communism will never work. It doesn’t take account of personal greed, or ‘I’m alright jack’, or ‘things are fine as they are, thank you.’

    And I did point out on another page that my personal experience was that pensioners were persuaded by ‘Project Fear’, re their pensions, and it was an uphill battle to persuade them that the MSM and BBC were propaganda tools, because they were of a generation who believed that the papers and the BBC actually told the truth.

  211. Rock says:

    majestic12,

    “I am schooled in psychology, psychotherapy and hypnosis ( amongst other things) and my thoughts are with Rock, in various postings. If you will indulge….”

    That seems to be a major endorsement of my thoughts! Thank you.

    For the record, I have no such training as yours.

    “Don’t all jump on me, now, oh well, you can if you want to.”

    If only you had not mentioned my name, you would have been welcomed as an expert!

    Many folks here just can’t accept a few home truths.

    First, the British establishment must never be under estimated. We must stop playing according to their rules.

    Second, most of the people who voted No are tough nuts who wouldn’t be frightened into anything. They know exactly where their interests lie.

    Even today, after the SNP landslide and SNP MPs being ignored at Westminster, a poll quoted here shows only 47% support for independence.

    I am not sure if we can ever have a free and fair referendum, but if we do, we can only win if we target the right people.

    And in my view, those are the sort of folks the RIC so successfully targeted last year.

    Every single penny spent on targetting the 70% elderly British Nationalists and 90% selfish middle classes is wasted money.

  212. Rock says:

    ronnie anderson,

    “@ ROCK 9.10 ( excellent work of the RIC) YES I observed the Excellent body swerve at Save Our Holyrood gig, whereby very few RIC members stayed to support us. Have they forgotten the YES campain so quikly, as with other groupings.”

    They are probably clever enough to understand that gigs and demonstrations don’t achieve anything.

    Anti poll tax type campaigns do.

    You are anti Pravda GB tax aren’t you?

    If you started an anti poll tax style anti Pravda GB tax campaign, people from RIC (and from the SNP and other Socialists) would be right with you.

    And have you forgotten Patrick Harvie’s “body swerve”? Or you don’t want to offend your ally Paula Rose?

  213. Paula Rose says:

    Rock honey – you are digging a big hole from which you will be unable to escape -please be aware that ronnie anderson is a gem the like of which you will never be – you are free to be an ass here, feel free – malign me if you want, but to attack ronnie anderson is so so silly and stupid.

    Fingers point – dickhead.

  214. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    In the couple of years I have been commenting on WOS, I have never felt the need to imply that a fellow contributor was, perchance, a tad deranged, but Rock, you have succeeded!

    Congrats! Even although I have found myself nodding in agreement at some of your input to the site, I now find that I am beginning to regard you as an @r$€.

    How you can personally attack the ACTIVE Wingers they way you do is beyond contempt.

    Why don’t you grow up?

  215. Paula Rose says:

    Actually Rock I suggest you apologise or actually find yourself no longer welcome here by common agreement.

    Apologise to ronnie anderson or leave.

  216. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Oh, and BTW Rock, you never came up to the Wings stall at ‘Hands Off Holyrood’ on Saturday to say ‘Hello’.

    Other Wingers did. Your absence was noted. Do you actually exist?

  217. Petra says:

    @ Rock at 12:17 am .. Your post is spot on.

    ”No longer welcome here by common agreement. Apologise to …….. or leave.”

    Wow! I’ve heard it all now. Some strange goings on … going down on this site.

  218. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Petra.

    ” Some strange goings on … going down on this site.”

    I think so as well. See the post I’ve just done here:-

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-member-for-the-vow/comment-page-1/#comment-2034747

  219. Paula Rose says:

    Just love these tyro wingers – so sweet watching them play.

  220. Betty Boop says:

    What’s with all the challenging? There are facts and there are opinions and we all indulge in both and have our own prejudices.

    When an opinion or assertion is stated, we don’t have to pay any attention or comment.

    Here’s my opinion after reading through as many of the comments as I can stand on this thread.

    Rock, you seem a bit full of yourself and for some reason disparage efforts of Wingers who are active at events where they publicise Wings, try to educate/inform and raise a fair bit for charity. It’s not all about knocking on doors, though many of us have done our fair share of that too. A wee bit of humour often pops up in the midst of serious comment – it’s okay to have a laugh. Maybe you miss the point of some of it because some folks have been on Wings and working together for years and know each other quite well; been known to have the odd spat, but, get over it.

    It is not unusual anywhere for perceived arrogance to provoke strong reaction and you do seem to want an argument. Do you really need to quote another’s support for your comments when they have already defended them? You may arouse less criticism if you converse rather than give the impression of lecturing.

    There was a time, before the referendum, when virtually no one posting on this site cared if folks were members of political parties because everyone had common cause. The Yes campaign was like that. Why get personal about it? We don’t have to agree 100% about every issue.

    Chill pills all round please. Said my piece and if I feel the compunction again it won’t be wordy.

    BTW Rock, I did a lot of canvassing round doors, in the street and on stalls, and I spoke to many people who gave in to fear and, after the ref, quite a number who believed the last minute “vow” about powers which I believe was more cynical than it seemed. It was made, I think, to aid the destruction of Libdem and Labour support south of the border no matter which way Scotland voted.

  221. Haggis Hunter says:

    Stopped listening to BBC radio ‘Scotland’, fed up with the corny, one sided political manipulation. So its Planet rock on the way to work and Wings at piece / dinner time.
    STV on facebook is great for a wind up!



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