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Wings Over Scotland

The wages of triangulation

Posted on July 05, 2015 by

In our latest Panelbase opinion poll, conducted last week in association with the Sunday Times, we wanted to complete the work we started previously in analysing the public’s reaction to Labour’s election strategies.

What we found last time was that almost every decision the party had taken in Scotland under the regional managership of Jim Murphy had been massively at odds with the Scottish electorate.

Whether it was booze at football, full fiscal autonomy or the Named Person initiative for child welfare, the voters were full-square behind the SNP, and every new policy Scottish Labour unveiled doomed them further. Anything that could be got wrong was.


This time we were curious about the effects in the whole UK, and with regard to one landmark moment in particular.

One week before the election, in a televised BBC debate, Labour’s then-leader Ed Miliband had issued these fateful words:

Labour then spent the final days of the campaign finding ever more strident forms of words to say that they’d rather let the Tories form the government, even if there was a viable anti-Tory majority, than deal with the SNP.

We wondered how the numbers on that had panned out, so we asked an unusually large sample, divided roughly half-and-half between Scotland and the rest of the UK. This is what they said (click pic to embiggen):


In Scotland, the policy was catastrophic. By well over two to one, it drove more people away from Labour than it attracted, including a colossal majority (53% to 4%) of the voters Scottish Labour most needed to tempt back – those who ended up giving the SNP the most spectacular landslide in Scottish electoral history.

By then it was already clear that Labour had decided to throw Scotland under the bus in a desperate attempt to win over a few Tories in England. But the strategy failed utterly. Almost 70% of rUK voters didn’t care either way, and of those who did, it turned off almost as many (14%) as it appealed to (17%).

But Labour’s gamble was – and still is – that a possible gain of 3% of the electorate in England is still more voters than the net loss of 18% in Scotland, because England has 10 times the population. As illustrations of where Scotland stands in Labour’s priorities come, you won’t see a much starker one.

(It’s a fundamentally flawed calculation, because regardless of the raw voting numbers Labour lost twice as many seats to the SNP as it gained from the Tories and Lib Dems combined, but we’ve learned from bitter experience over the years that it’s futile to try to explain arithmetic to them.)

Scottish Labour appears determined to remain as a branch office of the UK party, and as such its overall direction will continue to be dictated by London. (In our last poll, even most Labour voters, by a large margin, accepted that UK Labour was ultimately in control of Scottish Labour policy.)

Both the Scottish leadership candidates have made all the usual noises about change, and about being more positive and not just spending their whole time bashing the SNP. But it’s plain that Nat-bashing is going to be right at the core of UK Labour strategy over the next five years, and at the end of the day the Scottish branch office will have to shut up and do what it’s told.

Labour has made its decision. Scotland is scorched earth.

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204 to “The wages of triangulation”

  1. heedtracker says:

    SLab hate it but the fact is, the SNP really are batting for Scotland, probably.

  2. Joemcg says:

    Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?

  3. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?”

    That support is still higher than the indyref after the oil price collapse and all the media bollocks about Greece is pretty damn miraculous.

  4. Andy Nimmo says:

    Yep. There are none so blind than those that will not see.
    Craig Murray goes even further in his post

  5. Com’n joemcg, if it wis easy, everybody wid be daein it.

  6. gordoz says:

    “in association with the Sunday Times” ???

    After their inflammatory ‘Scottish Edition” front page nonsense, is this a wise link up ???

  7. Dr Jim says:

    First time I’ve seen numbers on this….WOW!!!

  8. Ken500 says:

    Miliband got what he asked for. The voters obliged. It encouraged Labour supporters in the rest of the UK to stayed at home. An unfortunate choice of a leader who wants to destroy his own position. To succeed you have to go with the winners, the SNP, not the losers UKIP. An extremely unfortunate political decision and calculation. Labour are a shambles. Born to lose. Extremely bad at elementary Maths and unable to analyse the Polls.

    Every cloud has a silver lining it increased the SNP support and got a higher turnout. Turnout in Scotland was a higher % (pro rata) than the rest of the UK. Thanks Ed.

  9. Joemcg says:

    Aye well Stu. Getting impatient and it looks like this is gonna take years. Arrrgggghhhhh!

  10. heedtracker says:

    It’s still staggering watching a Labour Party leader stating out loud they would not form a government, if it meant any kind of relationship at all with centre left SNP. “Even if we do win, we’ll stand aside and let the Tory party back in, so vote for us” must be the most ridiculous electioneering ever.

    Unless ofcourse you’re trying to win the middle England bigot vote that thinks they own Scotland and decides all UK elections outcomes.

  11. HandandShrimp says:

    I take it this is the poll SC was referring to in the previous thread?

    I shall look forward to more details as they are dealt with. presumably topic by topic.

    On this particular issue, I really couldn’t understand the logic of Labour’s position. They let Cameron put them on the back foot instead stepping forward and saying “of course Cameron is terrified of a progressive alliance led by Labour”

    That said, there was much about the Labour campaign that I didn’t understand.

  12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ““in association with the Sunday Times” ???”

    Purely a cost-sharing arrangement. There’s no collaboration over the actual polling whatsoever. It means we get to access the rUK sample for UK-wide questions without having to pay double.

  13. handclapping says:

    I’m glad to see Stu looking after our money rather than spending it on commemorative editions of the WBB and a new design of Wings.

  14. RogueCoder says:

    I spent quite a long time arguing about this with Neil Lovatt on Twitter, as he is STILL parroting the “Vote SNP get Tories” line. His evidence is a post-election poll from a company I’ve never even heard of, and a couple of quotes from pundits who really ought to know better.

    Anyway, as irritating as the “vote SNP get Tories” line is, I realised there’s no point in arguing it because 1) nobody is going to believe that guff going into 2016 anyway, and 2) the Labour party are continuing to blame the SNP for their own failings. And why interrupt your opponent when they are making a fatal mistake?

  15. I listened to the last few minutes of the Sunday Politics Scotland today, Gordon Brewer had Jeane Freeman and Paul Sinclair (former adviser to Jack McConnel) on.

    He asked each of them if they were Greek how would they vote in the referendum.

    Jeanne Freeman said she would vote to end austerity.

    Sinclair said he would vote the opposite way because they needed to get rid of the Greek Government who had come power because they promised something they cannot deliver.

    That I suppose is an example of where Labour and their supporters are so out of touch.

  16. Wilma Watts says:

    I know this will not be popular but I think Labour didn’t want to win!

    I think the Economic situation terrified them and they didn’t have the Balls to deal with it. (See what I did there?)

  17. handclapping says:

    Sheer insanity. GE15 was all about the LibDem vote, true and it did play well with those that went on to vote LibDem but there just weren’t enough of them (21) to make up for those Labour supporters pissed off by loosing the chance to get the Tories out by whatever means possible (33).

    It would have been possible to turn the question round by promising to deal with the Devil if he could keep the Tories out from betraying the sick, etc for the benefit of their banker friends etc. I was going to say stupid, stupid but its otiose, we’re talking Labour.

  18. Dal Riata says:

    David Dimblebey: “…So you’d rather lose office, so to speak, you’d rather not have a Labour government…”

    Ed Miliband: “If the price of having a Labour government was a coalition or a deal with the Scottish National party it’s not going to happen!”

    Well done there, Ed Miliband, how prescient of you!

    The Scottish National party, led by Nicola Sturgeon, the most popular politician in *all* the UK, offers the hand of friendship to Labour to help the UK rid itself of the horrors of a pro-austerity Conservative (and Lib Dem at the time) government, while putting forward the positives of a left-leaning Labour and SNP coalition (or case-by-case voting) which would benefit many in the UK suffering under the current regime… and Ed Miliband said No! FFS! Idiot.

    Result: Conservatives now have a majority at Westminster; the Labour party lost – again – and are now leaderless and clueless; SNP take 56 out of a possible 59 seats in Scotland; Labour are left with one seat in Scotland – that containing the likes of hard and soft ‘c’ conservative Morningside…

    Well done, again, Ed! You got your wish.

    No deal with the SNP means your party are not in government, and may well not be for a further generation.

    No deal with the SNP means the Conservatives are now free to impose the worst of their austerity campaign on the people of the UK.

    No deal with the SNP means your party doesn’t even know what it stands for anymore.

    No deal with the SNP means the Labour party in Scotland have been almost totally annihilated, left with one seat – one! – and may well be left in the wilderness for a very long time.

    No deal with the SNP means… Oh, that’s right… you, Ed Miliband, blew the chance of becoming Prime Minister of the UK – ever!

    So, then, Ed, how’s life now you’re back in your £2m house in north London after your wee break in Ibiza? Boring, eh? Thinking about writing your memoirs? I wouldn’t bother, Ed, there’s already enough guff in Poundland’s Bargain Bucket as it is!

  19. gordoz says:

    “in association with the Sunday Times” ???” – Purely a cost-sharing arrangement

    Rev : Suspected as much; but just shows how others closer to establishment ideals can spin info to their position with a leading headline. Scary stuff really

  20. brobb says:

    Is embiggen a real word? I like it

    What does anyone think of Alistair Carmichael’s proposal for an amendment to the Scotland Bill to let Orkney and Shetland have control of crown estate money from their own patch? Of course if the SNP aren’t for this yet all they need to do is throw their backing behind it and it will be automatically defeated

    I wonder if we could leak a memo saying senior SNP figures secretly want to retain Trident 🙂

  21. Clootie says:

    Labour should keep doing what they have been doing for years 🙂

  22. Fireproofjim says:

    From 45% to 47% in ten months is great. At this rate we will be at parity in four years, but probably less as the effects of Tory cuts bite on the least well off.

  23. leginge says:

    Joemcg says:
    Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?

    The question is why ? We could do with some polling / questionnaire of NO voters to understand what compels them to want to continue living under a westminster tory govt.

  24. Camz says:

    With 41 MPs it was a Branch Office.

    Now it’s a small unit, located in a semi-rural industrial estate, only contactable via a PO Box.

    Labour is finished in Scotland.

  25. Petra says:

    @ brobb says at 3:46 pm ”What does anyone think of Alistair Carmichael’s proposal for an amendment to the Scotland Bill to let Orkney and Shetland have control of crown estate money from their own patch?”

    Over and above trying to annoy SNP MPs, fly-man Carmichael is looking ahead to the possibility of a bi-election being called: attempting to up his popularity rating with the electorate of O&S.

    It’ll also be interesting to see how that vote will go down in the Commons. Are we going to find that it’s the only one that the Tories and Labour support?

  26. Dave McEwan Hill says:


    Hopefully not too early
    Argyll Against Trident in torrential rain and a phenomenal midge attack

  27. HandandShrimp says:

    From 45% to 47% in ten months is great. At this rate we will be at parity in four years, but probably less as the effects of Tory cuts bite on the least well off.


    At this rate we would be at parity in 15 months Shirley?

    An ideal place to be post Holyrood 2016.

  28. heedtracker says:

    Its fun to rewrite teamGB history and wonder how things could have turned out if Ed on that BBC stage there answered the tory plant with his, why is Labour misleading the country about having to do a deal with the SNP?

    “Well the Scots voted to stay in the union and the SNP are centre left, so yes, I believe that we can work with the SNP and although we probably couldn’t be in coalition with them, we can successfully govern with their backing. It’s workable and desperately necessary to keep the tories out of office.”

    To be fair, there’d have been a neo fascist BBC/media backed teamGB tory boy coupe by May 10th, so it was a lost cause from the off. Probably all of tory boys vote swing had keeping out the SNP, really Scots, and the value of their houses pushing them along.

  29. You and My Comb says:

    @ RogueCoder

    I spent some time arguing with Neil Lovatt during indyref. He was quite categoric. He would vote yes in indyref 2 if the government failed to deliver on more powers. Ask him if he has changed his mind! I can’t seem to find a way to hunt down my Twitter history or I would publish it again for his benefit.

  30. Ken500 says:

    A 2% increase from 45% to 47% to YES. A 2% decrease to 53% NO. Continued every year is a good swing.

    2016 – 49% YES – 51% NO
    2017 – 51% YES – 49% NO
    2018 – 53% YES – 47% NO
    2019 – 55% YES – 45% NO
    2020 – 57% YES – 43% NO The Ayes have it. The Ayes have it within 5 years or even sooner.
    2021 – 59% YES – 41% NO

    The EU Referendum nonsense coming up and the Tory/Unionists doing their worse.

  31. Hamish100 says:

    A tory plants a question and Milliband falls hook line and sinker to attack the snp to an English audience. The same thing happened with the Carmichael lying email. Labour didn’t check their facts and the tories in England turned the leak around to suit them. The tories allowed Labour and the lib dems to do their work for them.

  32. galamcennalath says:

    Labour’s antics during the GE campaign showed they really weren’t competent to promote themselves effectively, far less take on the job of running the UK!

    “Labour has made its decision. Scotland is scorched earth.”

    ….. and now it’s beginning to look like the Tory government are taking the same attitude. It really does look like all Unionists have given up trying to win over Scots.

  33. Ken500 says:

    Or Miliband could have said, We will work with any progressive Party with social justice at it’s heart. it will make things better.

  34. mrmchoohaa says:

    You couldn’t be more correct. Everything about Scottish Labour is fundilymundily flawed.

    Will they EVER get their s**t together?


  35. Ken500 says:

    The legal case will make Carmichael morally and financially bankrupt.

    Cornered rats are desperate and sometimes dangerous. Roaming freely about Westminster. Keep digging the hole. Rats and the sinking ship.

    O/S Funding and Crown Estates revenues are a matter for Holyrood.

  36. heedtracker says:

    Ken500 says:
    5 July, 2015 at 4:44 pm
    Or Miliband could have said, We will work with any progressive Party with social justice at it’s heart. it will make things better.

    One nation tory campaign went massive on “keep Scots thieves like Salmond stealing our money, vote Tory.”

    Underlying that, UKOK media went massive with, “stop Scots stealing our country Scotland land, vote Tory.”

    Two cheeks of the same English nationalist arse but instead of saying fcuk the SNP to that tory BBC plant, Milliband could have said, ” well Sturgeon’s really only arguing for less austerity , borrow a bit more, slow down on deficit reduction, likely growth growth, tory austerity savaged the worst off who didnt cause it all, take pressure off the poorest teamGBists etc”

    But no. Milliband went in even harder with the “we hate SNP Scotland even more than you do, PM Cameron.” And probably 4 or 5 million English voters agreed with all the giant Salmond in black pickpocket billboards across all marginals. Worse probably another 4 million old Lab votes went even further with their anti SNP for UKIP racists and bigots.

    Seems pretty clear that England is desperate to stop SNP having any influence because a. Scots are thieves, b. Scots are thieves that are trying to steal England’s Scotland from them.

    Either or, it’s a very peculiar union.

  37. Taranaich says:

    Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?

    Project Fear didn’t begin with the referendum, and it surely didn’t end. In the months following the referendum we’ve had:

    – the definition of poor winners as unionists chose not to pay tribute to Alex Salmond when he announced his resignation, but kick him when he’s down with editorials and columns about how he ruined the country
    – much crowing and celebration from unionists about the oil price collapse, as if it’s a *good thing* that Scotland’s getting even less money as long as they can attack the Nats over it
    – the media continuing the falsehood of extraordinary CYBERNAT INTIMIDATION at the same time they promote Starkey’s and Stephenson’s poisonous remarks
    – New Labour choosing to blame the SNP & UKIP for their catastrophic failure rather than take any responsibility for their many ruinous decisions
    – and all through this, the media continue to collude as establishment apologists, be it for New Labour in Scotland or the Conservatives in England.

    Yet despite all this, support for independence continues to grow. No reason for us to stop now, is there?

  38. mike cassidy says:

    Scottish Labour are like the macaroni pie –

    pasta their sell-by-date!

  39. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Ken500 at 4.37

    Doesn’t work that way at all and such thinking is dangerous.
    Politics is about grabbing the moment as it often moves very fast – one way or the other.

    I look forward to us campaigning for independence again soon.

    If your theory worked roll back to 1974 and the two elections then and what should have followed.
    We should have been independent by 1985. In fact we were trying to avoid fourth pace by that point.

    Let’s stop all this silly guesswork. We go for a referendum as soon as we think we can win. And there is no way we can ever be sure of the result

  40. Alistair Sheehy Hutton says:

    Unless there’s been a big change in how the Indy Ref question is being asked then I’m subtracting a few percentage points of the yes vote to simulate DKs breaking for No in the voting booth.

  41. Schrödinger's cat says:

    Naw, shrimpy
    A different one I think
    I haven’t seen any analysis on this poll yet, so I don’t know when it was conducted. The full effect of last weeks wm fiasco has yet to be seen. It’s the summer hols, gie folks a break

    What I was interested in in was the 25% who voted labour in May, the latest poll showed a drop to 19% and the snp up to 60%

    I’m not suggesting that they would all vote yes in the next ref, chance would be a fine thing, I’m only trying to identify our target audience, if they are willing to vote snp, they are not died in the wool Union Jack underpants wearing variety of labour supporters.

    My main critics im of the yes and snp campaigns in the last 18 months, it was too clunky! Too reliant on mass distribution of leaflets etc. we arrived in towns and villages, flags flying. Our opposition arrived in unmarked cars, grey suits and dark glasses. They used their resources to better effect and targeted their efforts. Nasty, but I have personal experience of this.
    It is not enough to point to certain demographics and then blame them, eg, it’s official, you can push your granny aff the bus, especially if they’re English ?..

    If the figures show that the over 65’s voted no, we shouldn’t castigated them, we should target them. Our opponents did and they won remember?

    Their is a plan to crowd fund bill boards
    There is also the iscot
    These are the media areas where we fail. We should support them
    Kendo macaroon
    Make up something we can deliver to this demographic, we know where they live, and we can printout our own copies
    1. Use a large font
    2. Make it a PDF, different os, can rearrange graphics and text on such docs
    3. Keep it simple
    4. Limit the use of couloirs
    5. Allow personalization , eg, in the header, give us the ability to type in the name of the town, eg auchtermuchty,

    If we are going to win this, we need to get smarter folks

  42. Stevie says:

    The Red Tories are rubble and it’s good they’ve gone – unfortunately the Blue Tories rule with an overall majority and thus the SNP can do little to help Scotland and one wonders how that will hit the SNP vote in the next GE?

  43. Fireproofjim says:

    You are right and don’t call me Shirley

  44. Davy says:

    Contrary to public belief Labour are not as dumb as you think, their worse, lets just witness their clype-gate folly.

    Labour are no longer a party representing Scotland and it’s people, and yet they cannot see it because they are more concerned about slagging off the SNP than anything else.

    They have no policys that will attract the Scot’s because everything they stand for is given to them by their London masters. Unless labour grow a set of balls and become an independent labour party in Scotland they are finished in this country.

    And its nothing more than they deserve, hell mend them because just now their just a bunch of tractors and quizmasters.

  45. Schrödinger's cat says:

    Yet despite all this, support for independence continues to grow. No reason for us to stop now, is there?

    I’m not. This is just round 2

  46. Scottishlass says:

    Am I reading that right? 21 SNP respondents were more likely to vote Labour if they refused to do a deal with the SNP and let the Tory’s in as a result?? Whit??

  47. Schrödinger's cat says:

    Aye heed
    Then again, our task is to convince voters in Scotland to vote yes. People in England won’t be voting in indyref2 either

    We should focus on what we have control over

  48. Thepnr says:

    O/T six Greek tv stations exit polls predicting OXI. I’m hoping it’s true.

  49. David says:

    The article’s title reminds me of the biblical quote “The wages of sin is death”.

    So are you saying that triangulation is a sin, in political terms, and it has led to the effective death of the Labour Party in Scotland?

    Sounds right to me, SLab and UK Labour had too much triangulation, not enough socialism, not enough listening to real people.

  50. galamcennalath says:

    Taranaich says:

    “Project Fear …. despite all this, support for independence continues to grow.”

    I remember feeling that Project Fear was such a pathetic way to run a campaign – turning to scaremongering instead of making any positive case.

    I am now beginning to suspect, like with so many Unionist initiatives, the consequences are not quite what they had in mind.

    During the course of the campaign, NO went from a 30% lead down to 10%. OK, much of that loss is down to the dedication of Yes. However, I now wonder if … for every OAP they scared, did the offend someone else into voting Yes?

    Project Fear 1b was tried during the GE. That didn’t do much good for the Unionists.

    You are right, regular releases of Project Fear reincarnated continue. How effective is it? Or, is it actually doing the Unionist cause more harm than good?

  51. Capella says:

    Guardian too saying OXI in 4 exit polls. Polling now closed.

  52. Robert Peffers says:

    @Joemcg says: 5 July, 2015 at 2:33 pm:

    Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?

    Nothing strange there, Joemcg, These are the Scots who are far too busy doing anything they can find to do, or who do nothing of value anyway, to avoid anything whatsoever to do with politics.

    They do not read it in papers they buy, (or get for free), just subliminally seeing the big black headlines on their way to page three, the ‘Celeb scandal pages and the back page for sport and horsie/dogs racing pages then off to the bookies on their way to the Bingo and/or the pub.

    They don’t hear it on their portable audio/radio devices as they dash off to the kitchen to make tea/coffee or open another can of booze from the fridge when the news comes on.

    The don’t see it in their TVs as they swear at it and swap channels when the news comes on or there’s a Party Political Broadcast on. These guys don’t know who Gordon Brewer is, or they think he plays for a football team that isn’t Celtic or Rangers , (some may even think he plays rugby).

    They don’t talk about it with their mates as they are far too busy talking about Big Brother or the fitba or the dugs an horsies. Even the ones who don’t switch off their radios when politics comes on switch themselves off when politics comes on.

    I’d bet there is an instant sudden surge in demand upon the national grid when Party Political Broadcasts come on as they all dash off to make their tea.

    It will have to hit them in their pockets, (or their wives purses), before it hits them that they have been had. Even then they will already probably have been subliminally brainwashed that it was all the fault of the SNP BAD anyway.

    You must understand this is traditional Labour Supporters whose Dads, Grand Dads and Great Grand Dads we are talking about here – not sentient human beings. Pavlov’s dogs are amateurs compared to these guys. I spoke to one such last week. He wouldn’t believe me that the Scottish NHS has been independent of the English NHS since it was founded in 1948, (The NHS in Scotland was created as an administratively separate organisation in 1948 under the ministerial oversight of the Scottish Office, before being fully politically devolved in 1999).

  53. dakk says:

    Re the Panelbase poll.

    There is normally a 3% margin of error in polls,therefore I think I’ll run with the premise that we are on parity with No currently,so that I don’t grind my teeth during the night.

    That aside, I’m hoping for a good result for Greece in their ref.Good luck to them however they vote.

  54. mike cassidy says:

    The more things change…..

    I am reading Modernity Britain 1957-1962 by David Kynaston.

    The context for the following quote is the summer of 1958 and Labour Leader Hugh Gaitskill reacting to the governing Conservatives drawing level in the opinion polls.

    Kynaston produces a journalist’s description of Gaitskill’s attitude at a private lunch.

    Why,he enquired, aren’t the public reacting against the Conservatives? He believed it was because the Labour Party had not departed sufficiently from its old ‘working-class attitudes. People in Britain, he reflected, were in the main ‘radical’ but not socialist; they wanted a ‘left of centre radical party’ which would make social changes without being revolutionary or authoritarian. More and more, he believed, the ‘Keir Hardie image was becoming a dim and distant feature of the past’. The Labour Party had to find some more modern image if it was to be a successful force. There was now a feeling of prosperity among the working class, he observed, and this was turning the electorate into a largely middle-class vote.

  55. Robert Peffers says:

    @HandandShrimp says: 5 July, 2015 at 3:00 pm:

    ” … That said, there was much about the Labour campaign that I didn’t understand”.

    You are not alone, Handandshrimp, neither did the Labour Party understand it.

  56. Brian Powell says:

    It’ll be a sad reflection if Greece votes against austerity but Scotland voted in the Ref for austerity!

    Warning after warning was ignored that the Tories would win and do this.

  57. Petra says:

    Just hearing on the news that the Greek people were bombarded with horrendous propaganda scaremongering from the Media right up until the point of voting. Sounds familiar.

  58. DaveDee says:

    Approx 20% of votes counted in Greece Referendum, currently 60-40 for No.

    Live vote count can be viewed here,%22params%22:%7B%7D%7D


  59. galamcennalath says:

    Brian Powell says:
    “Scotland voted in the Ref for austerity! Warning after warning was ignored that the Tories would win and do this.”

    I agree.

    Perhaps a relevant question to Labour supporting NO voters might be, “Why did you vote Tory in the referendum?”

  60. Nana Smith says:


    BREAKING: Greek interior ministry projection says ‘no’ camp will get more than 61 percent of vote.

  61. Juteman says:

    Watching the results coming in from Greece fills me with shame.
    The Greeks said ‘fuck you’, to a Project Fear, and we shat it.
    So ashamed of old Scotia tonight.

  62. Joemcg says:

    Juteman-well said. Embarrassed for the alleged 55 tonight. Scotland the brave? Oh dear, trouble is they have dragged us into the mire too. Shitebags.

  63. snode1965 says:

    Reality check folks! Unless life under this Tory government Seriously effects the standard of life of the average punter in Scotland were f@cked!
    Herein lies our chance. When the Tory policies on welfare and working tax benefits hit home, not only the direct effects but to small & medium business, opinion will swing in our favour.
    We must be ready to capitalise on our advantage when it comes, as we might only get one shot…

  64. skozra says:

    What Juteman said, I couldn’t agree more.

  65. Macart says:

    Fingers crossed for the Greek electorate, but the anti austerity vote looks promising so far.

    On our own poll. I’d say 47-53 after the non stop barrage we’ve had to suffer since September last is pretty good. Direction of travel is right, but its going to take the financial pain travelling up the food chain to see any speedier movement I’d imagine. Gideon’s budget may prove to be a real game changer.

    As it stands though, folk are coming round and even at the current rate we’d be looking at a reasonable majority advantage within the term of current Westminster government. 2018-20 wouldn’t be too far off the mark.

  66. Brian Powell says:

    Hang on, have they counted the postal votes yet!

  67. heedtracker says:

    Schrödinger’s cat says:
    5 July, 2015 at 5:34 pm
    Aye heed

    So how are you liking my endless pointing out the blatant and obviousness of red and blue tory unionism:D

    Its fun to do that though. Look at UKOK unionists relentlessly monstering FFA.

    UKOK Unionists red and blue tory, jabber away against FFA but they know Scotland wants it, they know Westminster will never willingly allow it, they hate it all because they know FFA would be brilliant for Scotland. As did our English blue tory and UKIP voter/neighbours. They knew that SNP backing would probably mean an FFA devo-max Scotland by now. Well that’s if Cameron’s creep show had actually left No.10 because a coupe was certainly being cooked up by all the teamGB media.

    But here we are, EVEL and historically shysted by THE VOW fraud, in just over 9 months since the referendum.

    Next years Holyrood election’s an opportunity for Slab to either stand up for Scotland or write their own grave stone. “Here lies SLab, RIP, er, that’s it.”

  68. Thepnr says:


    Thanks for that link, this is very important.

    For far too long WE have meekly allowed the privileged classes to decide who will get what and how the wealth generated by the workers is to be shared and who it will be shared with.

    In my view it is disgusting that the poorest have to pay for the mistakes of the wealthiest such as supporting the failed banks
    The Greek voter may just be opening the door a little to a greater and better democracy, hopefully Spain and Portugal will follow their example.

    It’s about time the kleptocracy got a kick in the balls. Just who is it that all this debt owed to? If anyone could enlighten me I’d love to know.

    I hope many in Europe will now follow, including Scotland.

    Government representatives along with oligarchs, media barons and multinational company leaders attending secret meetings in Bilderburg where they no doubt plot the next move is all wrong. I wish this to be the begging of the end.

    As Greece was the birthplace of Democracy I truly hope that a vote for OXI is a sign of a rebirth.

  69. K1 says:

    We? Not us, we didn’t Juteman, we said ‘fuck you’ too. Greece’s situation is different, the entire country got taken to the edge…as has been discussed at incredible lengths on here, we are fighting against ‘tradition’, and a long dirty fight from the Unionists and their paid up lackeys in the msm.

    Greece, we should be proud of them right now, they are our democratic counterparts, and they have now trounced and outed the gangsterism at the centre of the neoliberal agenda…they have helped us greatly in our cause. Don’t be down about this, never look back and think we didn’t do our best…our staging was different and it was remarkable how far we came…look forward now to this aiding us. Greece are leading the way against the European austerity model of governance.

    Domino effects can be expected from this…we are now, because of our own recent referendum in a much more advantageous position going forward. And when the deal that Greece wants, and will now get is shown to have been not at all the disastrous fear mongering shit stirring crap that has been spread all over the planet in the last few weeks? Others who have been sold that pup, will have to pay attention.

    If they can do it, so can any country. Their bullying, money grabbing, profit making at the expense of the citizenry days are numbered. Take heart. We will win this in the end.

    I’m a glass half full type…fuck negativity tonight of all nights…they have done the world a great service. Let’s rejoice in that. 😉

  70. woosie says:

    Let them eat pate.

    Never mind banning the macaroni pie, more of us will be looking for them in foodbanks after os-cam-ids cuts announced today. I actually walked past a foodbank trolley in a local supermarket a week ago, as I felt so angry that this government are able to allow their megarich donors off with their taxes by cutting the benefits of those who can’t work, because those of us who can will feed them. Of course I’ll change my mind, as they well know.

    I can’t believe these draconian punishments on the innocents will be allowed to pass without massive protest; At 57, I’ve never known a government to be so unpopular – and I haven’t forgotten the Wicked Witch of the South!

    Mid-to long-term, if Labour have anyone tucked away in the wings with a thimble of sense, they will use this to align more closely with the SNP, who, outwith the msm, are not hated across the uk. Politics must head left as a reaction to this carnage, and a deal can be struck whereby SNP get FFA in the next ge; if it’s announced soon enough, the English voters will have time to digest the reality of the consequences of further tory rule.

    Another demolition of unionist candidates next year could push this forward.

  71. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    There’s a web site and Facebook page which is advocating a commitment to Indyref2 in the SNP’s manifesto for Holyrood 2016, but also a commitment to a referendum in 2018.

    Now, while I agree that the SNP should have Indyref2 in their manifesto next year, I don’t believe their hands should be tied to another two year campaign.

    Indyref2 should be a a time that the Scottish Parliament feel is decided by changing circumstances and the date should be no longer than 6 months from the decision.

    We’ve been through 99% of the arguments for independence; the only thing to sort out is ‘Which Currency?’.

    I think we could remove one unionist argument by saying we will NOT be using Sterling but using our own currency, following Sterling initially, until it can break completely independent.

    As I type, the last thing we need is a two year campaign.

  72. Thepnr says:

    Don’t be too hard on them Juteman, the Scots had two years of Project Fear, the Greeks barely a week.

    Project Fear II will not work in Scotland next time.

  73. Ken500 says:

    ‘Back to the future’

    What has a political situation in 1974 got to do with a political situation in 2014? 30 years later.

    What has a Independence Referendum in Scotland in 2014, got to do with a Greece Referendum on whether to agree to conditions affecting a Eurozone in 2015.

    Greece is Independent. Scotland is not in the Eurozone.

    Scotland has balanced it’s books and been in surplus for ever because of it’s resources and exports. Greece has not. Greece is twice the size of Scotland with over twice the population. Different history, different culture, different climate, different landmass, different political system, different demograhics. different Union. Totally different situation.

  74. Aye juteman the greeks dont believe in living on their knees unlike the “proud scots. Who have no shame.

  75. Thepnr says:


    I am certain that from tomorrow we will have broken a path for all the peoples in Europe. A path of return to the founding values of democracy and solidarity in Europe, sending a strong message of determination, not only to stay but also to live with dignity in Europe. To do well and work as equals among equals. Let us therefore make this act of strong will, this celebratory act of democracy, an act of determination for a better future for all of us, both in Greece and Europe. I am very optimistic.

  76. Alex Wright says:

    The people of Greece have stood strong, with a probable 60% – 40% result for No.
    They look as if they have managed to overcome their own version of Project Fear. Hopefully,in the near future, we will find the will to replicate their courage.

  77. Luigi says:

    Thepnr says:
    5 July, 2015 at 7:31 pm

    Don’t be too hard on them Juteman, the Scots had two years of Project Fear, the Greeks barely a week.

    And the Greeks have been absolutely hammered financially for five years, whilst a good number of scots still feel quite comfortable, with so much to lose. Five years of tory majority rule and they will come to their senses. Our turn now! Pity it had to be this way 🙁

  78. onelessday says:

    I bet the people of Greece are so pleased they were not cursed by having oil

  79. Greece shipped $35.5 billion us dollars worth of goods around the world in 2014, up by 63% since 2010. Data source. International trade centre. So all these lies about greece being starving and bankrupt are bankers and creditors lies and pish.

  80. Sassenach says:

    Gideon is slashing the BBC budget, saying he thinks the BBC have become “too imperial”.

    You couldn’t make it up!!

  81. Marcia says:


    Scotland said ‘up yours’ to Westminster on 7th May.

  82. ArtyHetty says:

    snode1965@ 7.11

    ‘Herein lies our chance. When the Tory policies on welfare and working tax benefits hit home, not only the direct effects but to small & medium business, opinion will swing in our favour.’

    Thing is it will affect those at the bottom, by and large, not in the middle and definitely not those at the top.

    In actual fact, the attacks on working tax credits is most likely a very sinister ploy and it will affect people in many ways. It will make the working poor poorer and it will create massive resentment
    towards those without work and the ‘benefits’ system can be all but dismantled then.

    The universal credit system being implemented as we speak, is a dreadful, complicated system replacing most ‘benefits’ including those for disability. Everyone on it, will have to sign an agreement to undergo forced work, sick or not. I suspect it’s the start of a workhouse program because it will also plunge many into homelessness.

    On top of that, local councils will loose masses of much needed cash because there will be sanctions and housing benefit is to be lumped in with UC, paid monthly, many cannot manage their paltry benefit to get through a week nevermind monthly. Scary stuff is heading to Scotland, and thats befire they scrap council tax benefit, what will councils do then?

    Great news about Greece, saddening for us though that we are tethered to wm while being whipped and kicked down big style, we have to keep fighting the bastrds.

  83. Thepnr says:

    @michael diamond

    Many Greeks are starving michael, that’s what 5 years of austerity have done.

    By the way, your webpage seems to be down. All it says is wos ?

  84. Fiona says:

    I think the Greek referendum will have an impact on future independence vote here.

  85. Agree with you brian doonthetoon, no more dragging out referendum dates. 3 to4 mnths max is sufficient time.

  86. Dal Riata says:

    Well Done/Bravo/??????? Greece if, as is forecasted in some quarters, over 60% voted No.

    Most of the bailout money went to banks and creditors, not the people of Greece.

    A great big GIRFUYz to the financial mafioso who appear to be above the law, and even when they do get caught stealing, cheating and lying receive paltry – at least for them and their banking conglomorates – fines and a, ‘Please don’t do it again… (or, at least, next time don’t be so bloody stupid as to get caught!)‘.

  87. Training Day says:

    The Greeks have an unassailable history of independent thought and are absolutely sure of their pivotal role in the creation of Western civilisation.

    Whereas we’ve been told from school onwards that we were ‘enlightened’ only after the Union.

    The Proud Scots must be Proud tonight. They will be, because ignorance does not equip them with any semblance of shame.

  88. lumilumi says:

    Sorry, haven’t read all the comments above, so apologies if this has been said over and over again.

    Labour don’t care about Scotland. OK, so their automatic vote machine has been broken, but 56 SNP MPs in Westminster don’t make much difference.

    Engish constituencies account for nearly 90% of the UK Parliament at Westminster. That’s where Labour’s priorities lie. They pander to the Daily Mail and other right-wing press in England in a desperate attempt to catch some unsure Tory voters.

    Labour have totally abandoned their roots, their principles, their backbone, their core voters. They’re tractors and quizmasters to the original Labour cause.

    Voters in Scotland have noticed this and voted for the viable alternative, the SNP. Voters outwith Scotland unfortunately do not have a viable third/fourth party to vote for.

    That’s why Scotland is so dangerous to the UK Establishment. People are getting democratic ideas above themselves, how “un-British”.

    Talking about British jingoism, yesterday we had that embarrassing display at Wimbledon – Federer was unaware and then bemused but very dipolmatic when the BBC interviewer asked him about the “super Saturday” Britfest with veterans. BBC then went on to report it as if Federer supports all things British (including foreign policy). Sickening.

    The BBC really is nothing but a propaganda trumpet.

  89. Taranaich says:

    @galamcennalath: During the course of the campaign, NO went from a 30% lead down to 10%. OK, much of that loss is down to the dedication of Yes. However, I now wonder if … for every OAP they scared, did the offend someone else into voting Yes?

    A bit of both, I’d say. The vast majority of people I’ve encountered through the Yes campaig found Yes more appealing and welcoming, and were turned off by the doom and gloom of No: it was a phenomenon that I saw across all ethnicities, nationalities, financial standings and social groupings.

    A lot of people have been saying Yes need to do a lot of self-reflection and soul-searching to see where we “went wrong.” While it’s vital and valuable to do that, I think we did far more right than wrong: a 20% gain despite no daily newspaper, no news channel, few big businesses, and few international voices on our side, and the entire forces of the UK establishment against us. Indeed, going by the international coverage of the Greek referendum, I even think there was a lot more than just the UK establishment against us…

  90. Clootie says:

    Well done Greece. I wish we had been as brave last year!

  91. ronnie anderson says:

    Ockey Ockey Ockey the Big Banker Boys kin pitaway their sticks,the Greek People wurnae feart,

  92. liz g says:

    Anybody know if there is a Greek website something like Wings
    Where we can post our support and congratulations ?
    And if there is can you post a link please?

  93. Andy Nimmo says:

    I keep going back to what Paddy Power the Irish Bookmaking Mogul said re ‘introducing casino games into betting shops’
    “You have to adapt to prosper or stay stagnant and bite the dust”
    How many NO voters fell into that category.
    I personally know quite a few.

  94. Ken500 says:

    Scotland did vote to end austerity. It vote 50% for the end austerity Party, the SNP. 56MP’s to 3MP’s.

  95. Gavin says:

    Well done Greece. A resounding ” get stuffed” to those bureaucrats and greedy bankers in Brussels. The Greeks have shown great courage by rejecting austerity. If they had accepted the status quo they would be suffering from the burden of debt for decades. Why should ordinary people suffer as a result of banks greed and mistakes ?

    Iceland had the right idea, let the banks go bust, take the hit at the time and rebuild the economy, in addition they prosecuted the bankers responsible.

    I am not against the EU, but I am against the corruption and greed that has led to this mess. Whatever happened to “we’re all in this together”. As usual, the poor pay for the mistakes of the rich.

    For there own sake, I think the quicker Greece exits the Eurozone, the better.

  96. a supporter says:

    “So, then, Ed, how’s life now you’re back in your £2m house in north London after your wee break in Ibiza?”

    But don’t forget Ed’s £2m house in London is nobbut a shack in Scotland.

  97. Ken500 says:

    The BBC needs to be cut, it is over extended. All that is needed is a Parliamentary Channel to see what Westminster is up to. Most important. A news channel/CEEBIEs Channel 1 & 2. Radio channels (cheaper to run) Any programmes on 3 & 4 could be shown on 1 or 2 instead of so many repeats. Abolish 3 and 4.

  98. David says:

    leginge says:
    5 July, 2015 at 3:47 pm
    Joemcg says:
    Pretty sickening that new panelbase poll 47 yes 53 no. Especially after all that’s occurred. WTF?

    The question is why ? We could do with some polling / questionnaire of NO voters to understand what compels them to want to continue living under a westminster tory govt.

    The WHY is down to being comfortably ignorant, happily uninformed, detached, deluded and above all spineless.

    If the majority of folk on the island (i do mean all of the U.K) didnt fall into that description then there wouldnt be the issue in the first place.

    You are not struggling with the powerful elite. You are struggling with the spineless dumbf**ks who are emotionally invested in their awe inspiring spineless dumbf***ery.

    They want to ignore the constitutional and economic storm thats brewing, switch on the kettle and lose themselves in TV shows pitched at a level that should make an imbecile weep.

    Thats the hurdle i think.

  99. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Brian Doonthetoon at 7.31

    “We’ve been through 99% of the arguments for independence; the only thing to sort out is ‘Which Currency?’”

    Disagree entirely. Never once mentioned to me or anybody I know on the doors except the odd person saying “We know we can use the pound. They’re lying”

    The issue came in nearly at the bottom of any polled list of concerns but was an annoying distraction and we are now being told by our enemies that it harmed us.It didn’t.

    We should have brushed it aside. On currency the average voters were only concerned that they would have enough of whatever currency we decided to use. We wasted far too much energy on the issue while Better Together quietly went about painting a picture of a beggar nation to our less well informed voters

    What beat us was the belief still held by many Scots that we are subsidised from London. That was the whole Better Together theme. That is what we have to beat. Nothing else

  100. Nana Smith says:

    O/T Well done Greece. Hope many other countries follow.

    Common market my backside. Neoliberal con to transfer money and property to the rich on the backs of the poor.

    Our turn will come when George[offhisheadoncoke]Osborne kicks off his next round of cuts.

  101. K1 says:

    Live from Syntagma Square in Athens right now…

  102. Ken500 says:

    There are 28 countries in the EU. Only 17 EU countries are in the Eurozone.

  103. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dave McEwan Hill.

    “Disagree entirely. Never once mentioned to me or anybody I know on the doors except the odd person saying “We know we can use the pound. They’re lying””

    Maybe Dundee was different then. When I was campaigning with Team YES Bus at City Square, umpteen (generally older) peeps mentioned the currency issue and quoted the scare stories about us not being able to use Sterling.

    To be fair, the majority of them seemed to be NO intenders, possibly looking for a wee wind up of those pesky Yessers but they did exist.

    Funny how Dundee still managed to register the biggest YES vote…


  104. Dal Riata says:

    @Juteman at 6:54 pm

    Yes, I feel the hurt too, for what might and should have been, but I wouldn’t compare what has happened regarding Greece to that regarding Scotland.

    Greece was voting in a referendum on whether to accept the terms of an international bailout re the Eurozone.

    Scotland voted on whether it should or should not be an independent country.

    Huge difference.

    And remember, Scotland had two *years* of Project Fear hoist upon it and its citizens. Greece had only ten days of their own version of Project Fear.

    Also, Greece, its economy and its people have been ravaged by the financial terms thrust upon them. The people are losing money, increasingly losing work opportunities, having to try to scrimp and save while getting hungrier. A hungry people are an angry people. Is it any wonder that a majority (seem to) have voted to end it, to stand up and say, enough is enough?

    Scotland, at the time of the referendum was a, relatively, rich country within the UK. Most people were not hungry in the Greek sense. Many of those that voted No were comfortable with their lot and didn’t want to change the circumstances of their comfort. And, as mentioned above, two years of Project Fear delivered daily into the population’s homes via the British Establishment’s corrupt MSM and culminating in a virtual tsunami of fearmongering as the day of the vote approached – the BBC “on a war footing”: “The condition or status of a military force or other organization when operating under a state of war or as if a state of war existed.” (’s definition) for example – did the rest.

    If it takes the Greeks to show us the way, then so be it.

    Indyref2 will be a different ball game.

  105. bookie from hell says:

    Paul Mason BBC

    stunning comments Greece

  106. HandandShrimp says:

    Impressive result in the Greek referendum. Looks the opinion poll predictions got things wrong there too.

  107. Ken500 says:

    YES YES YES Tommy Sheridan’s going back to Holyrood. Rock on Tommy.

    Best news since 7th May.

  108. Brian Powell says:

    As the vote unfolds in Greece, the flabby bellied spinelessness of Labour in the Referendum in taking a chance on Scotland becomes a bigger and bigger embarrassment.

  109. G4jeepers says:


    There’s an ebook doing the rounds entitled “The bubble that broke the world” downloadable here

    Seems to be a very old debt which just kept on growing.

  110. mike cassidy says:

    Greek Crisis for dummies here – albeit American tinged.

    Interesting quote from near the end –

    And finally, though this might sound cruel, the worst thing that could happen to Europe is if Greece does well after it leaves. That would embolden anti-austerity parties in the rest of the continent by showing that they have nothing to lose but their fiscal chains by challenging the continent’s budget-cutting orthodoxy.

  111. K1 says:

    Live feed from RT of Syntagma Square, Athens…(Hope this works, already tried but failed to show up)

  112. Big Jock says:

    That Yes is not now at 70%. Reflects the lack of ambition of our fellow Scots.

    They just don’t get it,no matter how cruel their masters are to them. So we are up against half of Scotland that is happy being a doormat. I suppose if we are going to get independence. It’s not going to be Londons cruelty or arrogance.

    It has to be about the death of Britishness and the few percent more to get us over the line.

  113. Thepnr says:

    @bookie from hell

    Good link, he seems just a wee bitty shocked.

  114. K1 says:

    Comment from the sidebar of the RT livefeed link I posted:

    Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank

    GIve a man a bank and he can rob the world. 😉

  115. Dal Riata says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill at 8:36 pm

    “What beat us was the belief still held by many Scots that we are subsidised from London.”

    I don’t know how many times I heard that pre-referendum. And when you gave them a fact of how and why Scots are not subsidised from London and that the opposite was actually the case, the reply was, as often as not, one that began with, “Aye, but…”.

    Their minds had already been made up for them by the lies, misinformation, fearmongering and more lies they had received all their lives, and were still constantly receiving from their main source(s) of ‘information’, the (British Establishment) TV and (British Establishment) ‘newspapers’.

    And here we are some ten months into the post-referendum period *still* being bombarded with the same shit by the British Establishment’s propaganda organisations… as if the Scottish referendum had never happened, or, at least, had been just a minor blip on the True Path of (the Establishment’s) Enlightenment.

    Only the truth will set Scotland free. Unless 50% and more of Scots receive the truth – and believe it – we never will be.

  116. Macart says:

    Well said Taranaich.

  117. A MacRitchie says:


    To the Greek people Syriza & Alexis Tsipras who stood strong and defied the pressure which proves that HOPE can win if you have a strong positive message you will get the support of the people.

    If you have a strong charismatic leader with a united group of people in support fear can be defeated. If you believe change is possible. The joy the Greeks feel tonight is deserved after the strong negative propaganda they endured this past week. And what they have had to endure over the past seven years. Austerity strongly rejected democracy at work. Good luck in the negotiations over the next few days. I wander if the Germans will do the same as the Tories have done to us and ignore the result.

    Centre/Centre R parties are collapsing all over the place now.

    Things are looking up.

    Congrats to the Forth Rail Bridge another World Heritage Site.

  118. Thepnr says:

    @A MacRitchie

    Centre/Centre R parties are collapsing all over the place now.

    With the exception of the UK it seems. Worse luck 🙁

  119. gordoz says:

    Re Greek ref result –

    Greeks seem to respond very, very differently to Scots, regarding ‘Project Fear’

    Calls ‘Scotland the Brave’ into question somewhat ??

    Or are sections of our community likely to remain so completely gullible under pressure for the sake of a good old ‘British’ moniker ?

    Perplexing, sad, etc

  120. Democracy Reborn says:

    Just read a re-tweet by Stu.

    Greek referendum No voters:-

    18-34 year olds : 67%
    35-54 year olds : 49%
    55+ year olds : 33% (sound familiar?…)

  121. dakk says:

    Good on the Greek people in voting OXI !

    Looks like Deutsche Bank et al will have to take a big haircut.

    Shame that – after all the support they gave to the democratic aspirations of Scotland. 🙂

  122. heedtracker says:

    You have got to see BBC World crap all over Greece right now. Much like our noble and honest Beeb would have done to YES Scotland, probably. The liggers and shills will either ignore Greece now or continue attacking.

  123. Luigi says:

    Thepnr says:
    5 July, 2015 at 9:44 pm

    @A MacRitchie

    Centre/Centre R parties are collapsing all over the place now.

    With the exception of the UK it seems. Worse luck 🙁

    Aye, but only three tory pandas left in Scotland.

  124. Big Jock says:

    Dal you are right.

    45% of Scotland has embraced the revolution. The rest either don’t care,are happy as pigs in shit or are the wealthy protecting their British spoils.

    Scotland won’t come to independence like Eire or India. Believe it or not it’s a game of tactics. The tactics have to be 100% spot on next time.

  125. Meindevon says:

    A bit OT I know but in the Mid West for my first 4th July Independence Day celebrations. I knew it would be hit home to me to see Americans celebrate independence when Scotland ( ok not all of it but enough of it) rejected it.

    The big tear jerker ( literally) was when the Scottish pipe band came down the street playing Scotland the Brave. Wow, the irony.

  126. Big Jock says:

    Gordoz. Some Scots just see themselves as Brits. I work with some. You won’t get them to vote yes.

    They talk to me as if being Scottish was a choice I had made and they hadn’t. Crazy.

  127. Petra says:

    What a difficult decision for the Greek people to make and well done to them for choosing their freedom even although there will be hard times ahead. The only thing that we can do to support them now is to book a holiday there (if you can afford to do so).

    And what will Merkel and the troika do now with regard to Greece especially with the Austrians and Italians calling for a Referendum? This should be a wake up call for the EU and its fat cats.

    @ boris says at 7:19 pm

    Thanks for the link Boris. This is exactly what Cameron et al are up to. Setting the SNP up to fail.

  128. call me dave says:

    Historic ‘NO’ vote looks certain.
    BBC 5 live reporting landslide victory with 90% of the vote counted 61% against 39%

    Thanks for the links everyone.

    Opposition party leader resigns.

    Can Scotland have what the Greeks are drinking!

  129. heedtracker says:

    Also but not only, my Slovene girlfriend and hammer of the Scots has hysterics

    If you’re out their Prof T, ha bloody ha.

    Scotland is next.

  130. Luigi says:

    Big Jock says:
    5 July, 2015 at 10:10 pm

    Gordoz. Some Scots just see themselves as Brits.

    The Hard Noes – no more than 25%.

  131. Edward says:

    Not sure if its me, but seeing the pictures of the Royal Christening, all I see is a family out of touch with the people and crushingly old fashioned!

    They used a pram to transport the baby. The type that was vogue in the 50’s

    The media hyped it up of course in their usual sycophantic way

    Considering the amount of poverty in this country and the levels of austerity, its like we have gone back in time to the Victorian era

  132. Training Day says:

    In Scotland most No voters are worried about thruppence ha’penny on their tax.

    Clearly the Greeks have moved beyond such superstition.

  133. Dr Jim says:

    Since the result of the General Election I wouldn’t believe any poll by any company on Independence
    Who would you trust?

    The SNP will do their own poll

  134. Iain More says:

    Looks like the Greeks have told the EU etc to go take a flying proverbial. And the BBC has been telling us it was going to neck and neck, liars!

  135. Iain More says:

    On the latest Indy poll, were the Yes votes down weighted and were the No votes up weighted? Anybody know?

  136. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Dal Riata.

    “Many of those that voted No were comfortable with their lot and didn’t want to change the circumstances of their comfort.”

    How true! I work in a team of four. I introduced them them to WOS, WGD, etc. Only one was interested and confirmed his ‘Yesser’ status.

    Of the other two, one was an unshiftable NO, comfortably off, with a pension from a previous job, a current salary and a well-earning wife.

    The other felt that Scotland could be independent, but not at the present time. (?)

    I guess that there’s a hard-line 25% of the electorate who will always vote NO. Our job is to persuade those who were influenced by all the facets of ‘Project Fear’ that, actually, there is nothing to fear from independence.

    We have around three years to get the YES side up towards 55-60% or, I fear, a lifetime’s opportunity will be lost.

  137. A MacRitchie says:

    Thepnr 21.44

    Only far R Tories strongest in UK this could be an exception and a fluke mind they only got 30 odd % of the vote.

    Wait for Spanish election in October Podemos


    Labour C/R party pretty weak now.

    Libs centralist? (although god knows what they actually stand for now but they supported the Conservative R. nearly annihilated.

    This could have a domino effect all over Europe as elections come I live in hope.

  138. A MacRitchie says:

    Scotland the brave

    I have always hated that tune.

    I always thought that was a unionist dirge to support empire?

    Did the unionist Sir Walter Scott no have something to do with that tune?

  139. Bill Hume says:

    Just been watching the live feed from Athens. There is someone in the crowd flying a saltire. Thank you sir or madam.

  140. Ken500 says:

    Scotland voted against austerity. It voted by 50% for the SNP. Greece voted against austerity by 20% Scotland voted by a larger majority than Greece against austerity.

  141. Les wilson says:

    Well, fantastic for the Greeks, they have guts and they have showed them. We should analyse just how they were able to handle the propaganda, maybe we could learn something.

    However, there is a big difference with Greece and Scotland’s struggle.

    That is that the British state has deliberately interwoven itself with Scotland across almost everything.
    They have downtrodden Scotland for centuries for their own gain.
    We have been under an expanding UK propaganda machine for all that time. This peaks when they feel threatened.

    They have promoted a kind of fear, even self loathing into Scots ever since 1707. They have always wanted us to be useless with no aspirations, so we are more easily managed.

    We are of course great when there is a war on, our lads are usually first in and last out. Being used and abuse for all that time creates a kind of Stockholm syndrome in our country, for many of our people.

    Suddenly we are thinking out the box, we dare to aspire to better things, and better lives. With all none stop propaganda we can consider we did well in Indy with 45%, not what we wanted, but it has started the ball rolling and they now it.

    Evel may prove to be the last straw, couple that with what they are going to do to us via austerity the writing is now on the wall. They will try desperately to stop us by every harsher treatment, but that will only hasten the end of this long abusive marriage, divorce is coming soon.

    We just need to keep strong and ever motivated to ensure it happens.

  142. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    I have a niggling worry. In the final analysis there is no definitive economic argument for or against independence. It is all about what you do with what you’ve got. There are plenty of examples of small countries running well on minimal advantages by industry, ambition and imagination.

    That is where I am. Confidence in my own country to do things better for it than anybody else can.

    Just imagine. Westminster drops austerity. It accepts all the resolutions that the SNP group put about transfer of power. Does this sink our case for independence?

    Not for me. I am Scottish and I want to see Scotland run by the people that live in Scotland. I want to see a Saltire flying in every corner of my country. It is called national self respect.
    It means you do the same as all the other countries in the world. You take responsibility for yourself.

    It is time for a little more national confidence and national self respect. Or are we just the fearful fannies the rest of the world thinks we are?

  143. Lollysmum says:

    IPSO upholds Nicola Sturgeon’s complaint about Telegraph & #memogate

  144. Grouse Beater says:

    Labour’s catastrophic error was electing Miliband for England and Murphy for Scotland, neither man carrying a shred of sincerity or authority.

    If Jeremy Corbyn and his team can create a national grass roots movement, he stating categorically he will fight banksters and fraudsters, reaffirm faith in the Welfare state, and negotiate a new democratic relationship with Scotland that gives us back our sovereignty, he might make a significant difference to voting numbers.

    All the other Labour candidates are scared witless to say anything that might be construed as remotely radical.

    And while on the theme of radicalism…

    The Greeks decided there’s no gain without pain. Too many Scots thought the same so decided to take the soft option.

  145. Still Positive. says:

    Firstly many congratulations to the people of Greece, the home of democracy, for voting No.

    Secondly, I am one of the older voters (64 2 days after the vote )and I am a comfortably off pensioner with no mortgage. But all of my income comes from Government: a Civil Service widow’s pension; a small teacher’s pension; and my retirement pension which includes extra as my husband died way before his retirement.

    However I do have a social conscience especially as I taught in Glasgow schools for 17 years and I saw at first-hand the results of generational poverty on pupils.

    When Winnie Ewing won Hamilton in 1967 I was 17 and living in East Kilbride with my parents. The next day the papers described the nationalist cause and I thought: Scotland is a country and it should be independent.

    Nothing has changed since then and I do hope that we can become independent around that 50th anniversary.

  146. john dewar says:

    well said
    Dave McEwan Hill says:

  147. Roll_On_2015 says:


    The Tories should be renamed ‘The Tory Taliban Party’ after all they hate everyone that are not like them.

    Aye if you do not have any money you are stuffed.

  148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Well typed, Dave McEwan Hill!

  149. Ronnie says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 10:49

    Totally agree.

    I’m proud to still fly my Saltire on a 20 foot pole in No Aberdeen.

    It’s gonna be up there as long as I am here.

    Scotland the Brave? Dinna mak me laugh.

    Take some lessons from the designers of democracy – the Greek people!

    Anybody found that Wings over Greece website yet?

  150. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’m a proud pedant – that’s why I type “Well typed”, as opposed to “Well said”, coz you never actually said it, unless in your head, but you did type it.

    So I remain,
    your Proud Pedant.
    (And sycophant).


  151. Fireproofjim says:

    A McRitchie
    The words for Scotland the Brave were written by Cliff Hanley about 1950 for the singer Robert Wilson. The tune is older, around 1900. Walter Scott had the good sense NOT to write it.
    I agree with your criticism of it. It is the musical equivalent of Harry Lauders comic kilt

  152. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    BTW: you may find this of some interest…

    “Marche des soldats de Robert Bruce” – the tune the Scots played as they entered Orleans with Joan of Arc.

  153. Thepnr says:


    An apology from the Torygraph is better than nothing I suppose. I hope Carmichael doesn’t get off so lightly though!

  154. cearc says:

    It will be interesting to see if there is a shift in response to cokey-osbourne’s new cuts,

    A lot of ‘hard-working families’ who went along with the scroungers and skivers narrative (because they weren’t unemployed or ill/disabled) are about to have their benefits cut.

    Do I see a Pastor Niemöller moment coming?

  155. Training Day says:

    The Greeks may think they’re being smart by demonstrating their independence.

    But do they have the promise of a seat on the Northern Lighthouse Board?

    Eh? Eh?

  156. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Maybe they’re working towards a seat on the Cheese board?

  157. cearc says:

    With over 95% of the vote counted there are no districts which voted for.

    Well done Greece.

  158. cearc says:

    Oh, and many thanks to Dave Dee for the Greek ministry’s link to the count.

  159. msean says:

    I see that votes had to be cast in person in the Greek referendum,no postal votes?

  160. Billy says:

    OT. Telelegraph couldn’t even afford its readers or Nicola Sturgeon an apology for there part in “Frenchgate”.

  161. Cadogan Enright says:

    A CLEAR ‘NO’ VOTE – now will the right-wing neo-liberal EU governments finally listen to the International Monetary Fund??? Pretty much ALL the money lent to Greece since austerity started in 2010 has just gone to pay back banks while Greeks got squat all

    Meanwhile the economy was crushed for no good purpose. Beir bua don Ghréig !!!

    It will be entertaining if the do an Iceland – burn the debtors and re-issue the drachma – I would give them 18 months to economic recovery in this eventuallity

  162. Ronnie says:

    @ Brian Doonthetoon 11:11

    ‘Pedants for Yes’ next time round?

    We could have discussions about apostrophes…

  163. gordoz says:

    OT. Telelegraph couldn’t even afford its readers or Nicola Sturgeon an apology for there part in “Frenchgate”.

    Cant wait this will be all over BBC politics shows next week !!

  164. Blackford Wheeler says:

    A McRitchie and Fireproofjim

    I also cringe when I hear Scotland the Brave played. I even know of a piper diplomatically denying knowledge of the tune when asked to perform it by a tourist.

    However, I make an exception for this wonderful version written and performed by Citizen Smart.

  165. Still Positive. says:

    About apostrophes: when in doubt leave them out. And never for plurals.

  166. osakisushi says:

    I’ve sussed exactly where we went wrong with IndieRef. As usual, it took Greece to point the way to civilised behavior.

    It seems NO is the new YES. All we needed do was ask a different question on the ballot paper.
    Perhaps next time, something totally unambiguous like;

    “Do you want July 4th to be Independence Day for Scotland?”

    Win & win

  167. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Ronnie.

    Your namesake, Ron Thomson, of Grampian TV fame, once upon a time, did a weekly column in The Courier.

    One week, his subject was ‘The Aberrant Apostrophe’. It ha’s stuck in my mind all these year’s. Every time I see mention’s of, or graphic’s of, apostrophe’s in the wrong place, I am reminded of Mr Thomsons column.

    If we can’t treat apostrophe’s with respect, what hope is there for society?


  168. Hoss Mackintosh says:


    Interesting – I wonder where the apology will be – page 57?

    Here is the archive version…

    Timely though, for the Carmichael case.

  169. Training Day says:

    An instructive comparison upon which to end the evening.

    The pride of the Greek nation.

    The Proud Scots.

  170. heedtracker says:

    TeamGB far right pile in to Greece with this stuffed shirt. Very light weight hitter

    3) Risk of contagion. The chaos won’t be confined to Greece, especially if markets think other austerity-hit countries will be inspired by Syriza’s antics: Italian bonds took a hit last week, when the Greek referendum was called. Spanish bonds will look vulnerable too,

    Says Horatio Nelson of the Torygraph.

    What a relief teamGB tory world’s not a giant “austerity hit” debt mountain builder and tax dodgers paradise eh far right UKOK liggers.

    Ah well, BBC etc will cover tory boy arses for another catastrophic UKOK generation of extreme wealth and poverty.

  171. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Training Day.

    you typed,
    “The Proud Scots.”

    Should that not be ‘Proud Scot buts’?

  172. Ronnie says:

    I have no idea how this will turn out once it’s been through RevStu’s mincer.

    ????????? ??? ????????? ?? ?????.

    Ef?charistó? kai kali?nýchta se ólous.

    Thankyou and goodnight, everybody.

  173. Training Day says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon

    Since the referendum the ‘but’ has been superfluous mate. Anyone who calls themselves a Proud Scot in the wake of Sept 18th is a grotesque.

  174. Dr Jim says:

    Re; The Telegraph apology

    Where was it?

    I only read English

    How much did they pay the Lawyer who concocted that

    Any normal human would lose interest trying to decipher that after about three lines in and the Bastirts know it

    Maybe I’ll get the chance to walk by them smirking as they’re laying hurt one day
    That’s as polite as I can get

  175. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Brian Doonthetoon

    Great version
    Enjoyed one of the comments

    “Bravo pour cette belle interprétation ! Toujours émouvant à écouter… Vive L’Ecosse, vive la France et merde aux anglois !”

  176. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hik Dave.


    Hi Training Day.

    I never knew that. ‘I am young, I am learning.’

  177. Shuggy says:

    @Brian Doonthetoon 11:15 pm

    Re: “Marche des soldats de Robert Bruce” – the tune the Scots played as they entered Orleans with Joan of Arc.

    It sounds like the tune of Scots Wha’ Hae, as sung by the Corries here:

  178. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    “Hik Dave.”

    “Hik” is a new salutation I was trying out but when I see it onscreen, I don’t believe it works.

    So I will desist.

    (In other words, a typo, which escaped my proofreading, and I tried, unsuccessfully, to get round it.)

  179. Tackety Beets says:

    Thanks to a previous Wings post , I think Robert Peffers , I view Dateline London nowadays . This week it was all about the Greek situation and I found the attitude of the ” wifie ” fae the City totally stinking ! Thank you Fast forward button.
    Others were interesting to listen to. Even Owen Jones was tolerable.

    I think about how my grandfather ( born in the 1890’s) and with a strong Doric twang
    ” Godaul michty aat Greek fook il fair mak is black afronted ”

    The courage shown by the Majority of the Greeks certainly makes some of the 55% here seam selfish and perhalps cowardice with total lack of belief .
    The Greeks have restored my belief and give us much to look forward to.

    Regards my immediate family pretty much all Yessers .
    2 brothers Ex wives were strong No
    One was proclaiming ” I like things the way it is” , we all expressed to her how nothing is going to be the same with a yes or No etc… A NO is definite to bring more austerity.
    I have a picture of her fingers in her ears as she retorts ” La la la la ” like a teenager!

    I appreciate its not funny for her now as her ” benefits” are now cut ( don’t know the details) so now she is a Yesser !
    Different when it effects them !

    The other is on a good Management level job in the NHS.
    I remember urging her to reconsider and mentioning TTIP agreement , which only received a blank expression . This time I gave up as she was angry at the idea of iScotland . Comfortable and blinkered by the MSM

    ” Everyone in our dept are voting No” she venomously would reply.

    I only relay this to affirm some posts above .

    Political interest ? Yes I remember in the 70’s & 80’s getting my ear bent by Mrs Beets every Thursday eve as I watched Robin Day host QT .

    Despite all this we must continue to engage and educate everyone regardless.
    There many out there who neither understand or appreciate anything about the political world.
    Tempt them into our world if you can.

  180. Rock says:


    “Scotland said ‘up yours’ to Westminster on 7th May.”

    Scotland didn’t have the guts to say it when it mattered on 18th September last year.

    Westminster’s response to us? We don’t give a damn about you.

    As I said before, we are a pathetic people. At least 55% of us.

    The Greeks stood up to the world’s bankers, even if the banks had run out of money and the elderly had to queue since midnight to get funds.

    And you really think that 70% of our elderly are so stupid that they believed Gordon Brown’s lies?

    No they didn’t, they are lying British Nationalists.

    I don’t mean any harm to them, but they are a lost cause as far as Scotland’s independence is concerned.

  181. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Och Rock, the oldies believed what they were fed by the print media and the BBC – coz that was what they were brought up to believe.

    I know this – I was out on the street LISTENING to their concerns in the weeks leading up to the referendum. Page 25 onwards of the Wee Blue Book did a lot of good work.


    Hi Shuggie.

    Re ‘Scots wha Hae’. You could find these links of interest…

  182. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “What beat us was the belief still held by many Scots that we are subsidised from London. That was the whole Better Together theme. That is what we have to beat. Nothing else”

    Disagree entirely.

    “Project Fear” failed miserably.

    Why did they panic at the last minute and come up with “Vow” if the Better Together theme was so successful?

    Because they had to find Curtice a quick explanation as to why the 51% Yes poll didn’t result in a Yes victory.

  183. Petra says:

    @ Thepnr says at 9:56 pm ”Here’s an interesting article re Greece on those behind the scenes”

    ‘Roumeliotis noted that when he was in Washington D.C. he accidentally met with Greek journalists who told him that they were invited to attend seminars on the function of the IMF. He said that the committee can ask the organization’s Director of Communications Department (IMF), Gerry Rice, for a list of journalists’ names who attended such seminars in D.C.”

    I see that Gerry Rice is mentioned in todays Sunday Herald as being at the forefront in dealing with the Greek crisis. Gerry Rice from Calton in Glasgow.

    The SH outlines that he’s an economics expert with a PhD in Modern History from Glasgow University, was a Kennedy scholar at Harvard University and is Chief Spokesman and advisor to Christine Lagarde Head of the IMF. He’s also known as a specialist in Global Economic Development.

    He spent 25 years with the World Bank in Washington. In 1999 he returned to Scotland on a years secondment with Scottish Enterprise and at the behest of Donald Dewar carried out an analysis of the Scottish economy. At that time Rice stated that ”growth remains the most potent weapon against poverty and a job the best social policy. And the key to both higher growth and sustainable poverty reduction is, he argued, world class education.”

    Well we are said to have the greatest level of the most highly educationally qualified adults in Europe so it’s clear that there’s something wrong with his theory. It would help if he would come home and tell the Scots where we’ve gone wrong ….. or maybe we could tell him .. in a nutshell ‘the key’ is being shackled to Westminster.

    He was said at that time (in 1999) to have been shocked by the persistence of poverty in the land he had left behind. I wonder what he’d make of it now?

    It got me to thinking of the smart alex comment that is that ‘the main Scottish export to England is tramps’. I don’t know how many names I’ve come across recently of SCOTS that are / were runnning the show, at the top of their field, for example UK Ambassadors, experts for the EU, Marriot Leslie last Head of Nato, the current Head of MI6 and so on. We’re too wee, too poor and too stupid right enough.

  184. Rock says:

    Brian Doonthetoon,

    “umpteen (generally older) peeps mentioned the currency issue and quoted the scare stories about us not being able to use Sterling.”

    To be fair, the majority of them seemed to be NO intenders, possibly looking for a wee wind up of those pesky Yessers but they did exist.”

    Umpteen older No intenders?

    What have I been saying?

    They used the scare stories as an excuse. They were always going to vote No.

  185. Rock says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    “Or are we just the fearful fannies the rest of the world thinks we are?”

    Why would it need to “think” that?

    We proved it to them last September.

  186. Paula Rose says:

    I spend my time stopping you lot hurling handbags – but Rock you are an absolute pillock.

  187. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Rock, go and bile your heid.

    You have been SUSSED.

  188. majestic12 says:

    It is true that there are many differences between the Scottish and Greek situations. However, there is one overriding similarity.

    You can only push people so far before they reach a “tipping point”. The Greeks voted No to the status quo because they had been so abused and manipulated that, in the end, even when faced with an unknown future if they voted No, they still chose to do so, because it had gone beyond money, economics, austerity, jobs, food on the table, etc.

    They voted No, because as I tried to explain in a comment on the previous thread, that decision had dropped, or tipped down from the head to the heart. They were voting for pride, self-esteem, and “nobody is going to push us around and blackmail us any more”.

    I very much hope the Proud Scots (seems to be the euphemism or term of opprobrium du jour) do not have to feel that Greek pain, be so hammered by austerity and spiralling poverty, before finding their voice, their pride, their innate bolshiness and stand up and, in our case shout a resounding Yes.

    Sadly, I feel Tory terrorisation may have to be the trigger, much as I would wish otherwise. It just would highlight the selfish fecklessness of the 5% who thought being ruled by another country and in that country’s interests, was all fine and dandy.

    Whatever happens next in Greece, and there will be difficult times ahead as they are punished for their insurrection, I wish them well. We should watch this situation carefully and hope they hold their nerve, just as the brave 300 did at Thermopylae.

    And that French rendition of the marching tune of Bruce, as the Scots escorted Joan of Arc, is superb. It brought tears to my eyes.

  189. Richardinho says:

    The optics of that video are horrendous: Essentially Ed surrendering unconditionally to the bigoted demands of the Tory party. No wonder folk in England didn’t vote for him either: He looks hopelessly weak (because he is), yet someone in his team (probably Douglas Alexander) told him that this was a good idea.

  190. Dorothy Devine says:

    May I add my admiration and good wishes to the Greek people.

    You have heartened and saddened me all in one – delighted that you had the courage to vote NO against the tide of scare mongering and bullying by not only your own media but every other loud mouth available .

    Saddened because the people of Scotland were scared into believing the shite and site heaped on them ,too careless of their country to look beyond their back pocket , the BBBC or the Scottish press.

    Though you will struggle for a while may it be swiftly over – show the world what democracy really means.

  191. Joe Kinnear says:

    Can I ask why the SNP (and most of its supporters) are quite so uncritically pro EU when in fact the EU is an undemocratic cabal ran for the interests of baanks and the trioka? Well done Greece!

    Left-wing Eurosceptic and Scottish independence supporter here just bemused by the uncritically pro EU stance of the SNP. It wasn’t that long ago that Salmond’s enthusiasms included the Euro!!!!

  192. Andrew Haddow says:

    “Re: “Marche des soldats de Robert Bruce” – the tune the Scots played as they entered Orleans with Joan of Arc.

    It sounds like the tune of Scots Wha’ Hae”

    “Hey tuttie tatie” was also used by 19th century German compser Max Bruch in the finale of his “Scottish Fantasy”.

  193. michael diamond says:

    I love mediterranean food, so will now be buying even more greek olives, olive oil, and yoghurts. Good on you guys.

  194. Cyril Matvech says:

    To Joe Kinnear;
    As a proEuropean Unionist;
    Scots have no input into Europe Commission but under independence they will be able to influence it.
    Were it not for EU membership and progressive EU laws, we would still be beating up school children in class.
    EU membership offers Scotland great protection from the worst excesses of British isolationism.
    I will vote once again to remain part of the EU despite masses of tax funded BBC lies, UK civil Service planning and British separatist extremist propaganda to persuade me to exit the EU.
    Once Scotland’s independence is secured, I will revue that decision depending upon the level of influence wealthy Scotland is offered!

  195. Joe Kinnear says:

    To Cyril

    So that would be zero influence that an iScot had in the EU policy agenda. Doesn’t make sense at all to me to fight for our sovereignty and independence and then to immediately give up massive amounts of it to an undemocratic and corrupt bankers EU and the unholy troika. What’s so bad about the Swiss or Norwegian or Icelandic approach? Then again I am maybe ‘simple-minded’ but the “Westminster baaad, Brussels gooood” bleating does seem to my mind rather incongruous and incoherent. And it’s on the public record Mr Salmond used to be a Euro enthusiast!!! What’s wrong about a sovereign nation have its own sovereign currency? It what most nations do. It’s entirely normal.

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