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Wings Over Scotland


The Prophecies

Posted on November 23, 2016 by

One of the videos below is a genuine “Better Together” campaign broadcast, pulled from TV at the last minute (despite costing £50,000 to make) and today revealed by Buzzfeed. The other is a spoof we made in June 2014.

Good luck figuring out which is the real one, folks.

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    1. 23 11 16 11:56

      The Prophecies | speymouth

    2. 24 11 16 00:15

      The Prophecies | Scottishindependence | Scoop.it

    259 to “The Prophecies”

    1. Bob Mack says:

      I have two good chainsaws if that is any help !!

    2. Stoker says:

      Before watching the video tracks i’ll take a wild plunge for the one using a very sad looking child as being the BT effort?

    3. defo says:

      Mags Darling vetoed it. The brains behind Project Fear.

    4. Capella says:

      Catastrophe or cataclysm? Neither really captures the great joy and well-being which will inspire an independent Scotland. Good try though.

    5. Arbroath1320 says:

      Initially I was going to plump for the first video with the wee girl. Then I watched the second video and changed my mind. Thinking back to all the doom and gloom and absolute hatred Darling the Marlin and his cronies had for Alex Salmond I am going to say the second video is the one that was pulled. The spoof video is the first one with the wee girl.

      If by any chance I’m wrong then all I can say is … are you sure? 😀

    6. mealer says:

      Bob Mack 11.18

      That’s a very kind offer and greatly appreciated.Trouble is,with us being the most useless people on earth there’s nobody with the brains to work out how to start one.The best we can do is to make the noise of a chainsaw whilst we cut up a tree with a bit of jaggy steen.

    7. Andrew Davidson says:

      I *WISH* they had run that.

      The “the woman that told her man to eat his cereal and stop thinking about his family’s future” or whatever it was called, DID create a bit of unease among swingers.

      That one, coming a week after might have swung them against the No vote, if not entirely then a lot closer to the Yes win.

    8. Macart says:

      Clocked that on Buzzfeed and OMFG!

      They truly, truly were and STILL ARE completely tonto.

    9. Chitterinlicht says:

      Pretty sure i saw Cataclysm back in the heady happy days of indyref so ‘Catastrophe’ would be my pick for BT offering.

      Absolutely bloody hilarious both of them.

      Nutters

    10. Greannach says:

      defo @ 11:24

      Mags Darling (now known as “Baroness Splendid”) as the brains behind anything other than flipping her husband’s homes to squeeze the maximum out of the tax-paying plebs is hard to imagine. Can any organisation be that desperate? You’ll be telling me next that she and Mystic McTernan are going to release their own Xmas single.

    11. Paula Rose says:

      It has to be the first one that was pulled by BT – if it’s the second then they are madder than even I thought possible.

    12. ClanDonald says:

      The one where the voice over guy is trying really hard to sound like Neil “a cry of pish” Oliver has to be the spoof surely?

    13. galamcennalath says:

      Och, the first has to be BT’s. Talking up their wonderous Union.

      The second implies giving away everything north of the Roman Wall to Scotland, nae chance.

    14. Oscar Taime says:

      The second Doomsday scenario looks awfy familiar but mibby it’s just because of the rise it hate crimes since the Brexit vote.

      Next up it’ll be Marshall law.

    15. defo says:

      Greannach

      The buzzfeed article gives her the credit for realising this was going too far, even for Project Fear.

    16. HandandShrimp says:

      Having seen the first one already I knew which was which. The second one is very much in the same vein though and I think a fair few of the Yoons would have been quite happy with that as representing their too wee, too poor, too stupid, too toxic message. The Viking Warrior/Tellen hive mind pretty much spout this in hundreds of posts a week in the MSM boards.

    17. shug says:

      The best way of dealing with the no/better together types is to ridicule and make fun of them

      But then I find they are doing it themselves

      These people are really nuts

    18. galamcennalath says:

      And here we all are two long years later and so much has changed.

      Now England has voted for separation!

      While iScotland has so much potential to be a successful country, can the same be said for iEngland? Not with the way their loony right are headed.

      I’m sure we will have an open border when we do part company, however, which side is going to be the more prosperous and stable? I don’t think anyone could now seriously claim it will be south Britain!

    19. heedtracker says:

      Nice, and from the big schlub what cooked it all up,

      Blair McDougallVerified account
      ?@blairmcdougall
      @KennyFarq @JamieRoss7 we certainly held back a tide that’s overwhelmed others but we had a simpler message that took on populist offer.

    20. Henry Sloan says:

      I think the second one is the genuine one. And, yes, they were that stupid.

    21. Chris F says:

      I’ll plump for ‘Cataclysm’ being the spoof as I reckon it’s a bit too over-the-top even for BT.

      ‘Calamity’ has all the ingredients of the real thing: the woe-begone child to tug at the heart strings, the image of Scotland physically breaking away from all that’s good and wonderful in our perfect union and, of course, the final threatening warning that it will be … ‘forever’.

    22. maureen says:

      The second one reminded me of the movie 28 days, please tell me it’s the spoof lol!

    23. CameronB Brodie says:

      @ Better Together
      What a sad bunch of ideologically driven, supremacist, nationalists you lot are, true supporters of “Blood and Soil” nationalism. Personally I prefer liberty over slavery.

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    24. One_Scot says:

      Honestly, it will not surprise me in the least, if this time ‘Better Together2’ just came out and said, ‘If you don’t vote No, we’ll get Trump to nuke you’.

    25. Scott says:

      Can I make a prophecy that the Transport Minister be asked to resign over this. “Tongue in cheek”

      Traffic lights fail again at busy Inverness roundabout

      Controversial traffic lights at a busy Inverness roundabout have been out of operation for two days after suffering a power fault – and then being hit by a van.

      ?

      ?

    26. DerekM says:

      Hmm i wonder why in their dribbling insanity back in better together yoon wonderland pre 2014 that they pulled this,its not unlike the rest of the insane drivel they were spouting at the time.

      Could showing the island being physically cut along the border worry them that us mad indy Scots just might get the shovels out?

    27. ClanDonald says:

      Having heard rumours about this advert’s existence last year, the Rev offered £1000 for a copy. No-one took him up on it, clearly all the BT staffers were too loyal to leak it for a grand.

      But now Jamie Ross off Buzzfeed gets a hold of it, one can’t help but wonder if one of the Better Together inner circle has now defected to the indy camp and has decided to leak this now. That would be exciting, just imagine what other secrets they could tell us 😀

    28. ScottishPsyche says:

      Aren’t we stuck together geologically anyway via the Iapetus Suture? A bit of jumping up and down and away we go!

      Anyway come the flood England and Wales will continue to sink metaphorically and literally whereas we go upwards and onwards. Our friends down south should be investing in our infrastructure to ensure when they move north they have all their southern comforts.

    29. Soutron says:

      And the award for clumsily overused visual metaphor goes to….Better Together.

      Absolutely bat-shit crazy. Also, £50k, for that?!

      Are sections of the spoof video lifted from ‘Doomsday’?

    30. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      Pretty much ALL of it is lifted from Doomsday 🙂

    31. CameronB Brodie says:

      @TUBA-BOY
      Your ignorance is truly spectacular, is it an act? Sure you don’t wish Scots were all English? That’s what British nationalism is, expansionist English nationalism. Here’s a prtty narrow perspective on what nationalism means, perhaps it will help enlighten you perspective?

      A New England
      An English identity within Britain

      The politics of identity – why identity matters

      National identity is a hard thing for anyone to talk about. What after all, is more nebulous and elusive than a nation’s identity? But it is a particularly hard thing for politicians to talk about. For when they do, they are generally accused, from the left of chauvinism and, from the right, of treachery – or at least lack of patriotism. No doubt my comments today will court these accusations. Nevertheless, I think it is extremely important that politicians, and especially progressive, social democratic politicians, do talk about national identity.

      But how powerful are these arguments? They assume first, that national sentiment is something that can be suppressed or eradicated. But is this really so? Certainly, some people have a stronger sense of national identity than others. And a tiny minority of people – people who perhaps spend their lives moving from one place to another – have hardly any sense of national belonging at all. But most people do have firm ties to one or sometimes, even two or three, countries, even if it some times takes a terrible event – an attack on their homeland, the outbreak of a war, a natural disaster – to make them appreciate how strong those ties are.

      I believe that there is a real danger that if we simply neglect or talk down national identity – people’s sense of common belonging and shared values – we risk creating a festering, resentful national identity, an identity based not on confidence but on grievance. Indeed, if we look at the most unattractive examples of nationalism, they usually have their roots in the nationalists’ belief, true or otherwise, that they have been denied their birthright – that a foreign power, or an overly cosmopolitan, unpatriotic ruling class has prevented them from being who they really are.

      http://www.ippr.org/files/uploadedFiles/research/researchteams/Blunket_a_new_england.pdf?noredirect=1

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    32. Dr Jim says:

      Although the first one is the real one all I see are job opportunties for Scotlands magnificent bridge builders and Fergusons shipyard ferries, plus the wee girl had a lovely view a the scenery to appreciate and a boon for wildlife and fishing, so all in all pretty good really

      The second video was lotsa fun, again job opportunities for Scottish snipers and refuse dumpers filling up the space in between with all the stuff we don’t want plus a few of our wind turbines blowing the pong in a southerly direction, now that’s a good use of wind power, and of course the Romans tried the wall thing and it really didn’t work out as they’d hoped did it, they ended up with the folk on both sides of the wall knocking off their sojers

      Maybe if some of Scotlands citizens stopped worrying about what the Yoons are going to do and started thinking about what Scotland can do with intelligent use of Yoon stupidity

    33. orri says:

      Was going to ask if it was cheating if you recognised the clips in the second video. Must get round to watching it again sometime.

    34. galamcennalath says:

      Just listened to Calamity again. Not for masochistic reasons, I just want to listen to it as if it were an IndyRef2 ad.

      It really is very 2014. There is no way a BT2 could make those claims and put together that sales pitch in this post Leave, Tory ruled UKnosoOK.

      It was drama then, now it would be black comedy.

    35. orri says:

      Any chance that as it was towards the end of the campaign that Better Together stiffed the ad company on the cheque so they decided to release it?

    36. geeo says:

      If BT had released the ‘seperation’ video, i reckon the result would have been a Yes.

      Treating folk like idiots is one thing, but suggesting a no vote would invoke spontanious continental drift is quite another, especially when Scotland drifted FROM North America, so to drift like in the video, we would be the first ever case of continental ‘bounce’..!

    37. mike cassidy says:

      Bit cheeky in your spoof to suggest that some of Northern England would be coming with us to damnation.

    38. defo says:

      ClanDonald

      “But now Jamie Ross off Buzzfeed gets a hold of it, one can’t help but wonder if one of the Better Together inner circle has now defected to the indy camp and has decided to leak this now. That would be exciting, just imagine what other secrets they could tell us ”

      Blair McD is actually two people, Russian doll stylee.

      Flipper doesn’t really have a torture s & m dungeon, only a walk in wardrobe.

      Jim Murphy has a Wayne Rooney type granny proclivity.

      Abu Hamza was secretly working as Project Fears PR advisor.

      JoLa does eat wasps.

      Lord Foo soils himself as a party piece.

      Willie Rennie has to be plugged in overnight, to recharge.

      ….

    39. Fred says:

      Pishtradamus & the Runes of the Yoons.

    40. msean says:

      It’s got to be calamity,but there again, any words associated with doom and despair goes well with better together themes.

    41. Iain says:

      Nothing is ever as it seems these days. But surely it’s the first film that the real mccoy. If it was the second one, no wonder some Better Togetherer had the wisdom to tell them to pull it.

    42. ClanDonald says:

      @defo: Lolz

    43. Inverclyder says:

      Actually had the former Labour Scotland Autonomous Branch Office and Regional SNP Bad MP Iain McKenzie tell me this exact thing that Scotland would just be a small island adrift in the Atlantic.

      McKenzie did manage to turn a 20.8% majority for Labour into a thumping -25.6% share of the votes so at least he had that going for him.

    44. heedtracker says:

      heedtracker says:
      23 November, 2016 at 1:23 pm
      They also completely cut out and left out Orkney and Shetland, including one of the world’s biggest offshore oil and gas industries. Not funny that. Forever running down and shitting on their Scottish region of greater England.

      Although on balance, average yoon roaster online explain/rages how Orkney and Shetland are not Scotland, but some kind of odd shangri la of Englandshiredom.

    45. Alec says:

      I’d say by the size of Scotland on the map it’s the first one. Funny thing is the same one could be used for our departure from the EU.

    46. heedtracker says:

      And they left out Rockall, which extends Scottish Atlantic territory way out and beyond. Although there was an English guy a couple of years ago trying to claim it for the UK too, as they do.

      http://www.gov.scot/Topics/marine/marine-environment/ecosystems/Rockall

    47. heedtracker says:

      Lady Merryn Somnerset Webb, voice of Scotland on BBC r4 Lunchtime vote tory or else show right the noo. Great to hear a Scots Embro voice on BBC r4 news for a change. Lady Merryn is hugely BBC popular these days, and its heartening to see the BBC giving a Scotland a voice these days.

    48. Catherine says:

      Scotland is a lot older than 300 years, so I’m guessing the first one is the yoon film. The second one to me depicts Scotland, still stupidly in the union after Brexit.

    49. mogabee says:

      The bit about “our NHS” implies it’s one health service across Britain, doubt they could get away with that anymore!

    50. Greannach says:

      If you put the name “Merryn Somerset Webb” into an anagram maker you end up with “Not hugely bright but earning a lot by saying what suits my social superiors”.

    51. Macart says:

      You folks clocking some of this budget talk on twatter?

      “Blimey – £30 billion deficit forecast in 2019/20, forecast as surplus of £10bn just in MArch – a £40 billion swing into the red.” Faisal Islam

      “So far: Hammond has predicted SLOWER growth, HIGHER inflation, WEAKER tax receipts, HIGHER borrowing.” Gulp Chris Shipitv

      “Finally @PHammondMP gets to the real point. After 2020 the state pension won’t be ring fenced, or the health/social care budget.” paulmasonnews

      So if McDougall, Darling or Brown are following this?

      There are some folks in Scotland who may have a few pointed questions for you.

      Just sayin’.

    52. Ken500 says:

      That happened when Scotland voted NO. £Billions being taken out of Scotland.

      Illegal unfair taxes 60% to 80% on the Oil & Gas sector, when the price had fallen 75% Losing £ Billions and thousands of jobs. Over six years £24 Billion+ The tax is now 40% since Jan 2014. More than any other industry on the UK.

      No tax on ‘loss leading’ drink keeping healthcare costs down. Cost £Billions. £2Billion since 2014. Trident costs £1Billion a year. Since 2014 – £2Billion.

      Paid Loan repayment on money Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend. £3Billion a year – £6Billion.
      Loss on CCS Projects £2Billion. Losses on access to EU renewable Grant/investments Billions.

      Tax evasion – £3Billion a year – £6Billion.

      Total £50Billion plus – that Scotland has lost by the mismanagement of the Scottish economy by a fraudulent Westminster Gov. Average £10Billion+ a year – lack of investment.

      (Plus 2010 – 2014 Trident, no ‘loss leading’ drink tax, debt repayment on money not borrowed or spent in Scotland. Tax evasion. £8Billion x 4 years = £32Billion)

      Scotland to get £800Million a year. Lose £10Billion+ a year of Westminster mismanagement.

      Westminster Unionist now borrowing more again. The highest debt for 50 years.

      Hammond is a crook. He sneered and laughed at the prospect of Scottish Independence, cutting Trident and having a Navy to patrol the shores. Hammond can’t cut Corporation tax to 17% it is against EU rules.

      Westminster debt at 90% of GDP in 2017-18.

      Wait for Brexit. A lost cause. Armageddon.

    53. Ken500 says:

      @ Oil & Gas Tax now 40% since Jan 2016.

    54. heedtracker says:

      BBC r4 Lunctime news was ace. extended ace. Toryboys are raising tax on the rich. Its going to be great.

      Heil Hammond:-(

    55. Vestas says:

      http://www.thecanary.co/2016/11/23/caroline-lucas-save-chancellor-100bn-autumn-statement/

      Mmmm so that’s how many jobs again Jabba? 7000 INCLUDING the people building the subs in Cumbria….

    56. Balaaargh says:

      sorry for OT but can someone explain to me how an investment fund of £23Bn only has Barnett consequentials of £800M?

    57. Ken500 says:

      Westminster Tories now borrowing £122Billion more. By 2020? £2Trillion more. Calamitous. Brexit.

      Brillo lost his voice. Not happy. Have another glass of wine. Alcoholic make poor decisions. Without proper ‘total abstinence’ rehab counselling

      ‘Psycho Bastards’.

    58. heedtracker says:

      Vote NO for pension UKOK triple lock safety and niceness, gone. Debt and deficit rocketing ever upwards.

      TeamGB, I’m scared. Good.

      Takes you back. UKOK attack propaganda, funded by the suckas its aimed at.

      Vintage Crash Gordon, terrorising Scottish pensioners “because it is the right thing to do.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-27106954

    59. Breeks says:

      Heeheehee.

      I’m not a geologist, but a wee voice in my head saying that Scotland and England actually do come from different techtonic plates, pretty much as depicted.

      England is largely flat, sedimentary rocks, some sandstone but loads of Limestone which is basically formed by the detritus forming at the bottom of a river bed for sandstone, or maritime sediment for limestone.

      Scotland is predominantly igneous and metamorphic rock, and I believe was once attached to the Canadian Rocky Mountains back when the continents were merged… (Pangea was it???). Like the Rocky Mountains, Scotland’s geology is more volcanic in origin. Sandstones too, but granite and igneous / metamorphic shale etc changed by heat and tremendous pressure.

      But yeah, Scotland and England collided hundreds of millions of years ago, so that fault line isn’t fictional, it properly does exist. I believe the central belt and Borders is actually Scotland’s crumple zone. Lol.

      http://www.snh.gov.uk/about-scotlands-nature/rocks-soils-and-landforms/rocks-and-minerals/geological-foundation-together/collision-with-england/

      I dunno mind. I can look at these clips and kinda chuckle and grimace at the same time. But that was Better Together all over…

      You kinda get the feeling with a wee tweak and switched logo here and there, either video would suffice as a public information film about Brexit… with the closing credits rolling as rUK paddle steams off into the mid Atlantic with Theresa May and Boris Johnson giving it the Titanic salute up front in the bow.

    60. Dr Jim says:

      We waited for the budget………….still waiting

      I’ll never get that time back

    61. Proud Cybernat says:

      Has to be BOTH of them. That’s just about the right amount of contempt, loathing and lack of confidence they have for themselves.

    62. Sinky says:

      This morning red Tory Ian Murray at Scottish Questions, rather than taking the Tories to task as Labour’s only Scottish MP, asked whether Mundell agreed that another independence referendum was causing the biggest uncertainty to business in Scotland.

      Standing up for Scotland … my A.

      Can be seen again at 3.35 pm on BBC2 but nothing worthwile as it was just SNP bashing from unionists.

    63. Proud Cybernat says:

      “BuzzFeed News can reveal the rejected advert, titled “The Island”, shows a frightened young girl watching some sentient tools – including pliers, a blowtorch, and a chainsaw – as they sever Great Britain in half, leaving the child to look over a sheer cliff face as Scotland floats off into the Atlantic Ocean.”

      Not unlike this then:

      http://imgur.com/7i7XwtD

    64. heedtracker says:

      King of Project Fear 2014, finger on the pulse of his scotland region 2016. Ah SLabour, please just die and leave Scotland be.

      Blair McDougall ?@blairmcdougall 9m9 minutes ago
      Rouken Glen bitterly cold but beautiful today.

      Blair McDougall Retweeted
      Ian Murray ?@IanMurrayMP 1h1 hour ago
      Chancellor announces cancellation of autumn statement and spring budget to replace with spring statement and autumn budget. Inspiring!!!!

    65. HandandShrimp says:

      Better Together my arse!

    66. Mary Hinsley says:

      The first one as it suggests a No vote would allow Scotland FULL control over ALL taxes raised in Scotland! There was no way they were going to commit to that … ever!

    67. HandandShrimp says:

      This morning red Tory Ian Murray at Scottish Questions, rather than taking the Tories to task as Labour’s only Scottish MP, asked whether Mundell agreed that another independence referendum was causing the biggest uncertainty to business in Scotland.

      Ultra-unionism is all they have left. They are in a deranged circle wank where nothing else matters. Yet still they wonder why they are irrelevant to Scottish politics, such is their myopia.

    68. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun Scotland region, also finger on pulse today,

      George Galloway describes Aberdeen glitter attack – audio
      Alexandra Topping
      Wednesday 23 November 2016 09.20 GMT Last modified on Wednesday 23 November 2016 11.35 GMT

      Police were called to Aberdeen University after George Galloway was bombarded with glitter.

      The former MP was giving a lecture on Tuesday evening when he was targeted by a group of five protesters who covered him in glitter. They were ejected from the lecture hall and Galloway continued his talk.”

      Bombarded with glitter usual Graun style wet fart non news for Scotland hysterics. Some must have landed on their liggers clothes. Glitter is hell.

    69. galamcennalath says:

      Budget …

      £1.1bn extra investment in English local transport networks
      £220m to reduce traffic pinch points
      £23bn to be spent on innovation and infrastructure over five years

      Can we assume there will be Barnet consequentials to Scotland for the first, and a fair Scottish share of the second and third?

      Or, have we to pay AGAIN for infrastructure spending in England?

    70. Macart says:

      But wait! It gets better…

      “Wow. OBR forecasts £220bn increase in national debt by end of parliament to staggering £1.945 trillion. Huge Brexit impact” Robert Peston

      Um… Nope! No it doesn’t really.

    71. Sinky says:

      Come 2020, after ten years of Tory rule the UK will have a £100 billion deficit each year so under Westminster control of our economy Scotland’s share is £12 billion a year as part of £15 billion GERS deficit.

    72. Scott says:

      £1.9Trillion in debt by the end of this Parliament maybe I am a bit thick but how can the yoons say this is good who do we own that debt to can they call it in and where would we be.I know America is in hock to China are we the same.

    73. heedtracker says:

      Scotland’s share is £12 billion a year as part of £15 billion GERS deficit.

      Yes but, yes but, yes but, we get back “Discussions to begin on a city deal.” UKOK yoon’s hysterical excitement is infectious, like herpes.

      Kezia Dugdale Retweeted
      Johanna Boyd ?@BoydJohanna1 2h2 hours ago
      Johanna Boyd Retweeted James Millar
      Absolutely delighted!! We did it for StirlingJohanna Boyd added,

      James Millar @PoliticalYeti
      Discussions to begin on a Stirling city deal meaning all Scottish cities in line for a deal. Well played @BoydJohanna1 #AutumnStatement
      0 replies

    74. Theresa May: Angela, sorry to bother you, but it’s about Brexit. We are sinking!

      Angela Merkel: Vot are you sinking about?

      I’ll get my snorkel and wetsuit…

      Ob. geological fact, England actually is sinking.

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      I just spoke with someone who I know to have a non-political outlook and to have voted No in 2014, having swallowed Better Together’s world view. Their patter only confirmed his belief in Britain as One Nation.

      He agrees with me that it is ridiculous to suggest our disagreement has left us at each others throats. We even shook hands to confirm this. Despite his lack of a higher edumication, he now thinks Better Together are full of “shite”. His words.

      British national ideology is not strong enough to maintain it’s hold over once submissive Scots minds, given the appalling dishonesty and abuse of trust the British state has shown towards Scots. Time to put the beast out of our misery.

      @TUBA-BOY
      You’ll be happy to know I have you in my thoughts. 😉

    76. Stoker says:

      C’mon Rev, let’s see a belter of an article, post budget, titled; Let’s see what you could have won, done in good auld Jim B Bullseye fashion 😉

      Just wondering how happy some ‘No’&’Leave’ voters are right now?
      And the rest of them when they turn the telly on tonight or when they buy their BUM bogroll of choice tomorrow.

    77. HandandShrimp says:

      The only thing missing from the BT broadcast is the wee lassie turning into a foreigner, horror movie style.

    78. jim chestnut says:

      the second one is from the the movie Doomsday

    79. Cactus says:

      SO, say an ‘Act of Nature’ does actually give us a perfect south coast of Scotland..

      Would that make us auto-independent?

      Whip crack away, whip crack away, whip crack away Jane.

      Mon the nature!

    80. Desimond says:

      @Heedtracter
      Vote NO for pension UKOK triple lock safety and niceness, gone.

      According to todays statement, Isn’t it guaranteed for at least this parliament?

    81. Neil McCallum says:

      The top video is the one because the second was a clip from a movie about a deadly outbreak that started in Scotland that was threatening to spread all over the UK. So the authorities decided to build a wall cutting Scotland off from the rest of the UK preventing anyone from entering or leaving Scotland.this caused the people to become inhuman cannibals Ironically the cure was in Scotland. I was a very poorly produced movie but it could have easily been used by better together.

    82. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. @TUBA-BOY
      In fact, it was mention of your name that unleashed his anger. I was surprised he was aware of such a low-life, money-grubbing WANK as yourself, but then life is astonishing, frankly.

      What your strategy for indy2, eh, got a positive case for the Union?

    83. Bob Mack says:

      Anybody thinking about all that cap from the Tories about not saddling our children and grandchildren with debt ? £2 trillion by 2020?

      This country is on the very same path that Greece followed. Greece was something like 80% debt to GDP in the 1980’s. Look at it now at around 180%.

      The only way from here is down without any strong leadership and fiscal ability.

      I truly fear for the future if we do not get out within the next 2 years.

    84. Lochside says:

      Put this by error on previous thread:

      The real reason the Tories want Brexit is two-fold: stop foreign immigration and utilise the indigenous ‘reserve army of labour'(Marx)to replace it as a supine and cowed work force to create their ‘economic (slave labour generated) miracle’. So no more pesky foreigners and no more workshy skyving proles.

      First destroy all workers’ rights; introduce the ‘gig’ economy (courtesy Damien Green); enforce more welfare cuts; contributry pensions with ‘top-up’ state add-ons up to 2025 only. more workfare i.e. slave labour for big corporations; curb and cut wages for the ‘greater good’ of the ‘Nation’.

      Second dismantle all the devolved governmments as too ‘costly and divisive’. Focus all Government in the S.E.

      Third, build up the National Defence forces, in order to ‘control internal terrorism, both Islamic and Nationalist’ and round up social media ‘inciters of hate’. The latter being a piece of cake, as they have everybody’s browsing history now under control courtesy of the InvestigaTORY Powers Bill.

      Fourth, Forbid any public assembly unless State sanctioned.

    85. Cactus says:

      Yeah, the south coast of Scotland would be great for jobs.

      Bridges, boats, tunnels and tourism ~ That’s the future! 🙂

    86. liz says:

      I saw the Doomsday film on holiday in Italy, it was hilarious and barking mad at the same time.

      The Scottish ‘Mad Max’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M0fIbx-irk

    87. Vestas says:

      I love this picture – David Davis* vs the EU :

      https://s3.eu-central-1.amazonaws.com/euobs-media/163ac739fd0d927d06c44b4c0dec6d48.jpeg

      If that doesn’t work then its from this article :

      https://euobserver.com/uk-referendum/135998

      *David Davis to give him his due was a decent opposition MP on privacy issues etc. That was a fair old while ago….

    88. David Mills says:

      Do we know if the royalties for reproduction of a segment of “Doomsday” were paid?

      But inheritance way at £50,000 someone saw them coming

    89. defo says:

      Mibbees if we talk nicely about the Donald, he’ll negotiate us a great deal on wall material, when he gets his Mexican stuff.

    90. Breeks says:

      Macart says:
      23 November, 2016 at 2:48 pm
      But wait! It gets better…

      “Wow. OBR forecasts £220bn increase in national debt by end of parliament to staggering £1.945 trillion….”

      Save me Jebus. That’s what the OBR says? Just imagine what the real figure must be.

    91. David Mills says:

      In defence of the “Doomday” plot it was supposed to a UK developed Bio weapon escape & there is a historic precedence for that synario “Gruinard”

      an island maybe 500m from main land that was infected with Anthrax as a test.

    92. Stoker says:

      Cactus wrote:

      Mon the nature!

      Aye, the creation of The Grand CannyYin.

      The Proclaimers – Come On Nature
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwrmPrCF9F8

    93. Joannie says:

      They’re both hilariously over the top. I didn’t know Scotland was attached to England by logs and rope. What are you lot fussing about an indyref for then? Just get your chainsaws out, indy sorted.

    94. gordoz says:

      The batshit crazy second was obviously of the warner bros variety.

      Merry yoontide to all – vile frankly ( oh ho we miss the parody Lord flipper acount)

    95. Marcia says:

      The first one has to be the one they pulled. There is no UK NHS, thankfully for us.

    96. finnz says:

      The Giveaway must be that the top video said Scotland would control all of its taxation if it only voted no.

      But then as with all the promises, it was a lie…

    97. galamcennalath says:

      Marcia says:

      There is no UK NHS, thankfully for us.

      They milked that one well and truly. I remember reading that over half of Scots thought the NHS was a UK wide institution. And worst, almost half of NHS (Scotland) employees also thought that!

      It was an own goal by the SNP. When they changed Scottish Executive to Scottish Government they should have also changed NHS (Scotland) to Scottish HS, or whatever.

      The situation allowed BT to push the idea that the ‘jewel in the crown’ of public services was threatened by Indy.

      If it had been renamed and rebranded it could have been pushed as the Scottish ‘jewel in the crown’ under threat by continued UK membership!

      A negative, could have been a positive. Many things won and lost IndyRef1. That alone may have been worth a few percent!

    98. Cactus says:

      To be or.. to be.

      No nots.. that is the question (when it comes around.)

      ‘sup tae you wise peopl*

    99. Fred says:

      Anent the Autumn Statement, just listened in vain for any response from SNP MP’s on Shortbread, we had Varry somebody interviewing Douglas Fraser at length & Ian Murray spouting ad nauseum about Scotland’s share, then loads of time spent on Ann Frank. Would a “Scottish Six” just prolong the agony?

    100. ronnie anderson says:

      @ galamacennalath I,ve been saying that since Alex Neil was Health Sec & he never addressed that issue, all it needs is a Big Blue S before NHS & people will get the message even as you said the Staff & a change of Headed Paper.

    101. the dog philosopher says:

      One of the things that has always crossed my mind was that the Naysayers seem to lack a sense of humour. To me this is a very important psychological tool in being able to temper how you say and do things, and ultimately how you think about the world. They seem to lack any sense of imagination and therefore all-too-easily accept the established order of things. They seem to have a very narrow, dogmatic view of things which comes with not being able to think with, and from, a broader perspective. Whether it be the George Square Riot Squad or privately-schooled Tory boys, they all seem to have a screw or two missing. And on this matter I am NOT joking.

    102. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. If THE VOICE OF DECENCY AND REASON IS DOOMED, can I turn the taps on? Probably best do that in OT. 🙂

    103. call me dave says:

      Shortbread radio says’£800m bonus’several times or reports’ £800m extra’ while MP Murray says ‘allocation’.

      Only later does a shortbread person mention the ‘Barnett-ization’ formula which is an ‘entitlement’ as things stand but a pittance really when I listened to the Hammond organ splash the cash darn Sarf! 🙁

      Finally Stuart Hosie gets a say after Murray and Mundell and he did a reasonable stint in handling the Qs but might have scored a few points more if he had a little more time and I was a little less in a pissed off mood.

      Pensions triple lock only to 2020 older folks and then what!

      Independence asap please!

    104. Marcia says:

      galamcennalath

      It was called the Scottish Health Service until Forsyth got his mitts on it in the early 1990’s, he changed the name to NHS Scotland and introduced Trusts, thankfully these were abolished by Holyrood.

    105. Bill McDermott says:

      #Vestas @ 3.31 pm

      Good article. It talks about possible Article 50 by end of 2017 which led me to think that the Scottish Government could appeal to the European Court of Justice if they disagreed with the UK Supreme Court’s interpretation on anything from a judgement on Westminster’s case or on the SC’s interpretation of the Treaty of Union which will feature. If given leave to appeal to ECJ then the end of 2017 for an outcome might just be optimistic.

    106. Cadogan Enright says:

      I really can’t tell, is the spoof the second one?

    107. Rhonda says:

      The 2nd video is one of Tory Britain today, no spoof intended

    108. Thepnr says:

      O/T Talking about Brexit again. In recent weeks there has been some disquiet on Wings that the SG were softening their tone on EU membership and instead talking more often of “single market” membership. I shared their disquiet.

      Now it looks to me as where the SG are heading at least initially and that is EFTA/EEA membership as a first step. Their aim being to keep the “four freedoms”.

      The free movement of goods.
      The free movement of services and freedom of establishment.
      The free movement of persons (and citizenship), including free movement of workers.
      The free movement of capital.

      This is a prerequisite to membership of EFTA as well as the EU. So what are the other differences?

      Well the most important as far as Scotland is concerned is that members of EFTA are not part of the customs union which would leave Scotland free to do its own deal with rUK after Independence as well as other countries for which EFTA do not have a current agreement.

      Also EFTA members do not implement EU legislation on the common agricultural and fishery policy. For example Norway has a 200 mile limit on its fisheries. Considering the size of Scottish fishing territory this could be an advantage also most of the UK CAP rebate is unfairly distributed by the UK to Scotland’s farmers.

      There would be a very large reduction in Scotland’s contribution to the EU, maybe as much as 80%, it is from this saving that we could continue to provide help to farmers where it was justified. The rate of VAT would be decided in Scotland, VAT is the harshest tax on the poorest people, it may be possible to reduce it for essentials, food & utilities for example and raise for luxury goods. Whatever I’m not an economist but there would be options to benefit the many.

      I honestly can’t see many downsides between this and full EU membership at least initially, I can see many upsides between EFTA/EEA and absolutely nothing out of the EU with the UK.

      There is at least one lawyer Aidan O’Neill QC who I believe was totally against Independence but seems to have softened since the EU referendum that believes Scotland could actually negotiate membership with EFTA while still a member of the UK.

      The prize for a nationalist Scottish administration brokering what might be termed a five year EFTA-EEA “naughty step” membership for the UK is that in this period, Scotland can take the time to cultivate its own international relations, particularly with Norway, Iceland and Ireland as well as with the rest of the EU member states and the EU institutions. This might be done with a view to negotiating and agreeing among all relevant parties for Scotland to become itself an independent EFTA-EEA state at the end of the five year transitional period for the UK in the EEA.

      https://eutopialaw.com/2016/07/26/brexit-and-breuk-up/

    109. CameronB Brodie says:

      Thepnr
      Good post but I think VAT rates were recently(?) “harmonised” in the EU.

    110. Morgatron says:

      Even when faced by both outcomes , i would still vote aye!
      Hehehe.

    111. Gary45% says:

      Not sure if this has been mentioned already.
      Any coincidence that there were train problems in Glesca this morning?
      It would not surprise me if the Yoon parties accidentally?! chucked a wee cable over the electric lines to cause the problem.
      As the Yoon parties are basically inept at being real politicians, and think they have some momentum going regarding the transport minister, (they are delusional)or
      is the paranoia creeping back in???
      Had to scrape the ice from my windscreen this morning, that SNP need to do more to cause global warming, lets get some real!!! yoon politicians?!? to get things sorted, you only have to look at FMQs and the quality of the opposition parties, they look like Donkey Kong.
      Nuf Said.

    112. heedtracker says:

      Kevrage has just about had enough vile seps online too. On balance, just the thought of being cut adrift by and from teamGB, alone with idiot toryboys like Kevrage, is pretty scary.

      We could eat his dog food though, in that vids Directors Cut, enraged Hague, ramming dog food down our vile seps throats, wrapped in union jacks…

      http://archive.is/UmwnZ

      Lies, damned lies and social media – Kevin Hague on how SNP MPs continue to misinform
      KEVIN says that the Scottish electorate have been poorly served by an SNP machine that seems determined to keep them ill-informed.”

      SNP bad pours hourly out of the U< media, led and coordinated by the whole of the mighty BBC creep show and it still isnt enough for the hard conservative yoonster like KEVIN, shock:D

      Record's caps lock.

    113. Thepnr says:

      @CameronB Brodie

      They are harmonised within the EU to an extent. The minimum VAT rate is 15% and in the UK it is currently 20%.

      EFTA/EEA members have the freedom to choose their own rate of VAT across all sections of goods and have no need to follow EU rates.

    114. Undeadshaun says:

      I really like doomsday, wish they made a sequel.

    115. Lenny Hartley says:

      Thepnr, EFTA membership ticks all the boxes, the Scots remain voters see it as a step to full membership while the Scots leave in which a significant number were Yes voters will like that solution, it really is the best of both worlds 🙂

    116. ScottishPsyche says:

      O/T

      Yoon media have been using dodgy think tanks and bloggers as sources since BT was formed. Is it coincidence that as soon as WoS is acknowledged by a couple of SNP MPs this week, a smear piece may or may not be in the offing? Trying again to destroy the increasing credibility of WoS?

      Was anyone else contacted by the Herald group about going to a meeting with their editorial team to tell them why you had stopped your subscription? My reply was that I would use my money to support new media outlets and that I was tired of paying for articles about every fart and burp emitting from JK Rowling. I also made it clear I was not happy with the editorial direction of the SH.

      They should know by now trying to shut down the messenger does not silence the message.

    117. Thepnr says:

      @Lenny Hartley

      Reading about EFTA today I found a statement of a poll in Scotland that stated 79% preferred EFTA to 21% of staying in the EU.

      Obviously this result must have excluded those that want nothing whatsoever to do with Europe.

      Still looking for the original source but I can understand why this may be true among those that want to keep some ties with Europe.

    118. heedtracker says:

      They should know by now trying to shut down the messenger does not silence the message.

      No such thing as bad publicity. Also you can never have too much money or be too good looking.

      Anyway this is the post truth media era. Whatever that means, its all in the spin. Look at Macternan predicts or Pacific Quay, from Call Kaye’s tory phone in roasters, to Crichton Torquil/Torquil Crichton. Macternan predicts is a disaster at predicting but he’s making a living, with his red tory post truthyness.

      Heil Kevin Hague.

    119. Bob Mack says:

      @Scottish Psyche.

      Unless the Rev has murdered several nuns and stolen several newborns from their mother the papers especially the Sunday Herald can say what they damn well like. He will still get my contributions.

      Like you,I have been thinking for some time that they will try to silence the only true medium for accurate information about Scottish independence .That is Wings.

      My position as above is clear and immovable.

    120. Thepnr says:

      Found a poll from Survation conducted in 2013 that excluding don’t knows says 69% for EFTA/EEA and 31% for full EU.

      Scotland sample was tiny though at 88 out of a 1000 (normal for UK wide poll), interestingly though those most in favour of EFTA rather than the EU are overwhelmingly the 64+ and Conservative voter!

      Might be a way of getting some of those voters over to us and to support Independence.

      http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Bruges-Group-Report.pdf

    121. Cactus says:

      “The south coast of Scotland”

      North, south, east to west..

    122. Cactus says:

      Anybuddy else gotta prophecy tonight..?

      Billy of the Con, or Billy fae the Bar..?

      Mon the Caledonia
      *X*

    123. heedtracker says:

      “Lies, damned lies and social media – Kevin Hague on how SNP MPs continue to misinform”

      Sez Kevarage of the Daily Record and a double SNP bad Graun whammy,

      “Fight the ‘blight’ of windfarms near my golf courses, Trump urges Ukip leader
      US president-elect does not deny pushing interim leader Nigel Farage and key associates to fight development of windfarms in Scotland”

      That takes four Graun liggers,

      Robert Booth in London, Severin Carrell in Edinbugh, David Smith in Washington

      And

      “Scotland’s transport minister apologises to rail travellers
      Emergency statement by the SNP’s Humza Yousaf does little to deflect criticism over delays and reliability problems on ScotRail”

      Which just takes one, Libby Brooks Scotland correspondent.

      Our chums in the south really want their Scotland region back.

    124. Dr Jim says:

      Scotland rejected utterly both red and blue Tories so much so that the red Tories had to pretend to be blue ones to win a seat in Morningside Embra, The blue Tory represents the constituency rated the worst place to live in the UK let alone Scotland which made him so important the Tories made him Secretary of State against Scotland
      There’s one Liable Dismalcrat a self confessed liar, and a learned judge in a high profile court case reminded us of that fact

      Scotland voted for 56 SNP MPs yet whenever there’s any business to be discussed about almost anything regarding Scotland these three rejected fraudsters are the ones the media go to for their quotes and opinions on the country who rejected each of their political parties

      So why does the BBC STV and Newspapers consider that the population of Scotland are mentally irregular imbeciles when they continue to force feed us daily and nightly opinions of the people who Scotland clearly said, we don’t want your opinions and we don’t want to listen to you otherwise we would have voted for you

      Just a wee reminder for anyone who really thinks maybe the media just make mistakes sometimes

    125. heedtracker says:

      Desimond says:
      23 November, 2016 at 3:16 pm
      @Heedtracter
      Vote NO for pension UKOK triple lock safety and niceness, gone.

      According to todays statement, Isn’t it guaranteed for at least this parliament?

      The Guardian just the noo. Fact is, UK cant afford triple lock with tory economics now, still giant borrowers, nowhere near clearing deficit after 10 years, all made worse by Brexit.

      Its going to mean tax hikes 2020, or end of triple lock. Which do you think a 15 year old right to reign over us tory catastrofuck government will choose?

      “Pensioners

      What seemed like a promise was really more of a threat. Pensioners have benefited since 2010 from the so-called “triple-lock”, a guarantee that the state pension will go up every year by either inflation, the average rise in earnings or 2.5%, whichever is the highest. This is great if you’re older, but not if you’re a 20-something on a low wage who feels the baby boomers are still hogging all the good stuff.

      Hammond vowed the government would “meet our pledge” to protect pensions until 2020; after that, however, it will need to look at “the challenges of rising longevity and fiscal sustainability”. Which sounds awfully like a warning.”

    126. Breeks says:

      The problem I see with EFTA is that it is just a Trade Agreement. It does not have the stabilising effect over the formerly fractious nations of Europe which the EU does. The EU is a much more ambitious project.

      The perception is that EFTA will deliver all the good things the EU delivers but without the excess baggage. There is however a lot of substance in that excess baggage which personally I find reassuring. To spin the notion around and look at it the other way, EU membership gives you all the breaks EFTA does, but opens a lot more doors above and beyond. For example, what Funding does EFTA provide for redevelopment, training or infrastructure?

      Furthermore, we are already in the EU, and that reality could be a major factor in assisting Scotland extricating itself from a disintegrating U.K. I believe Europe has a much bigger incentive, and without a doubt more leverage, to help Scotland find its feet, and is much better placed to assist Scotland defending amenities we already have rather than EFTA where we would be creating new agreements across the board. Why put ourselves in a Brexit type pressure cooker of needing Trade Agreements signed at the gallop when the “do nothing” option, or rather the “do not exit” option protects our economy with the blanket effect of existing EU Trade agreements.

      If the EU genuinely does fear the emergence of far right tendencies in France, Poland, and Germany etc, then in Scotland they have a poster child nation where neo-fascism and far right perspectives have been aired but rejected, in lieu of a firm affirmation that Scotland wants to stay in the EU. I think that alone has potential to be a big factor in EU strategy, and the EU will not want to lose Scotland for some very sound political, social, economic and philosophical reasons. What message does it send to the divisive Right wing who want to dismantle the EU if the EU cannot keep hold of a Scottish nation which wants to be kept hold of?

      Part of the reason the U.K. has been winding up the EU for decades has been the UK’s desire to cherry pick the best bits of EU membership, but neglect to embrace the wider implications of full membership. If Scotland now begins a Dutch auction between the EU and EFTA for the best deal for Scotland, be aware that Europe might interpret Scotland seeking to cherry pick the best bits of Europe for the cut price membership of EFTA in true British tradition. All that very reassuring support for Scotland’s EU membership from the EU governments could evaporate overnight.

      It’s the EU for me, every day of the week. Just get the Indy ball in the back of the net, and do not get sidetracked by whataboutery over EFTA. Base camp for us all is sovereign independence and that is more like to happen in the EU because that is one ball that is already in the back of the net.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      From the other thread, a suggestion about Nana’s links, if not a dedicated Wings page similar to Paula’s.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-news-weve-all-been-waiting-for/#comment-2206388

    128. heedtracker says:

      England loves Farage. We’ll either all be working for Farage one day, or be dead by his hand.

      http://archive.is/8kWdz

      Over English sparkling wine supplied from Lord Ashcroft’s Gusbourne winery in Kent and canapes of coronation chicken and roast beef, Farage’s achievements will be celebrated by a crowd that ranges from the Tory Eurosceptic Jacob Rees-Mogg to the Daily Mail columnist Richard Littlejohn.

    129. cuilean says:

      BT’s distillation of all the big fears. Quick run down:

      1. Small size is mentioned 5 times. (Too wee).
      2. Pensions, schools, children, defence. (Too poor).
      3. UK on top world councils (Too stupid).

      But today’s reality shows just how mad we were to vote NO:

      a) ‘Greatest country on our planet’. Foreshadows rampant right wing British nationalism.
      b) ‘Strongest defence in Europe’. If nuclear winter is your thing.
      c) ‘UK companies global strength’ alludes to EU. Oh, we’re leaving that, so not so much global strength as parochial, remember we make the best jams in the world.
      d) ‘Our industries.’ Eh what are they? UK industries run down (e.g.steel) or owned by non UK parent companies.
      e) ‘Control all our Scottish taxes’ which is 15% of all taxes only.
      f) Protection from the big, rapidly changing world’. Foreshadows England’s withdrawal from the world in fear of immigrants.

      and the daddy of all fears

      g) ‘Oldest and strongest currency in the world.’ More Britnat crowing. But Brit pride comes before a fall, as English pound (it’s no oors, remember) crashes after Brexit & continues to fall.

      Don’t know about you but I am now absolutely bomb-proofed to all their ‘howling at the moon’ lies.

    130. Artyhetty says:

      Re;heedtracker@7.35

      “Hammond vowed the government would “meet our pledge” to protect pensions until 2020; after that, however, it will need to look at “the challenges of rising longevity and fiscal sustainability”. Which sounds awfully like a warning.

      I guess they have the ‘rising longevity’ bit sorted what with homelessness now massive, huge cuts to so called welfare and help with rent costs, and the destruction of free at the point of need healthcare. If you can’t pay for a home, food, or healthcare, well, that narrows down the possibility of living a long life, quite nicely. Job done, tories, ie, leopards, never change their spots do they.

      The longevity he is referring to must be about the south of England, because in poor areas, and in Scotland, (though I read that is improving) folks are much less likely to need that pension for very long anyway.

    131. JLT says:

      Well, that was cheery!

      Back to Skyrim.

    132. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      I believe the EFTA agreement with the EEA covers more than you might think.

      The EEA Agreement provides for the inclusion of EU legislation covering the four freedoms — the free movement of goods, services, persons and capital — throughout the 31 EEA States.

      In addition, the Agreement covers cooperation in other important areas such as research and development, education, social policy, the environment, consumer protection, tourism and culture, collectively known as “flanking and horizontal” policies.

      The Agreement guarantees equal rights and obligations within the Internal Market for citizens and economic operators in the EEA.

      http://www.efta.int/eea/eea-agreement

      You state “It does not have the stabilising effect over the formerly fractious nations of Europe which the EU does.”

      It may be you that is becoming bogged down, do you really believe that the EU under any circumstance could see Norway, Iceland or Lichtenstein as a potential enemy?

      EFTA is not fractious in that sense, it is what best suits these smaller nations at least in their eyes.

      The issue here is not membership of of the EU or EFTA as far as Scotland’s current situation stands.

      It is simply what will be more acceptable to the whole electorate and more importantly how much are the EU or EFTA willing to share on the potential of future membership of an Independent Scotland before a referendum takes place?

      I have no idea and neither do you, I suspect though that the discussions that have taken place since June with the EU and EFTA member states are strongly leaning to push Scotland in the EFTA direction WITH THEIR SUPPORT.

      Of course you won’t read that in the newspapers or watch it on Reporting Scotland. Anyone who rules out remaining in a Union championing the 4 freedoms just because it is not the “best” Union for them at this time is a mug.

      It may be the only Union you’r going to get, for now at least. If it is, then grasp the opportunity and let’s not waste it.

      Now is not the time to be fussy, after Independence well…

    133. Thepnr says:

      You will not have the EU come out and say explicitly that of course an Independent Scotland would be a welcome addition to the EU.

      Definitely not while they have even yet to even start negotiations on Brexit.

      However, for the 4 small countries in EFTA to say exactly that shouldn’t be a problem, whether they will or not could be up for debate. A strong hint in the direction though could go a long way to gaining votes in a second referendum

      The Scottish Government know this of course.

      With the big guns Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond visiting/talking to all four EFTA countries just in the last week you can sure that something is afoot.

      Whatever that might be I am assured that it WILL be in our best interests.

    134. Ken500 says:

      Scotland loses £10Billion+ a year to Westminster Tory/Unionist mismanagement. They have ruined the Scottish economy. Either deliberately or in totally ignorance incompetence. Brexit will bring even more decline.

      Scotland gets back back £800Million over 5 years. Not enough to pay the increase in the loan repayments on money borrowed and spent in the rest of the UK.

      Some rail workers are sabotaging their own industry because of their affiliation to the Labour Party, Over powers which are not devolved. The 3rd rate unelected rejects jump onto the bandwagon. They are only there to muck up the Scottish economy. Their illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion have destroyed the world economy. They have caused biggest migration and deprivation crisis in Europe and the Middle East. They are despicable.

    135. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 5.55
      While I also like/can live with EFTA/EEA membership for Scotland.

      I do have a few problems,firstly with what you describe as a five year naughty step for the Uk,I am not all that sure Westminster can be trusted not to try to damage it’s main competitors (Scotland) directly while taking part in the negotiation if they still control most of our economy.
      Also indirectly with the negotiation it’s self.
      They do have form for this and,to be honest it is definitely in their interests to do so.

      Also where in that plan is Trident and the Scottish Navy Ship building programme?.

      But my main concern is with the part of the article you linked to,that explores Scotland in a Union with N.Ireland.
      While ok there is no great amount of detail on this.
      The whole Idea horrified me.
      There’s no mention of Scotland having a vote on it,although that’s not to say that wouldn’t/couldn’t happen.
      But my reaction is….have we learned nothing.
      Scotland would be numerically stronger.
      All the equal status statements in the world could be in the Treaty,but it is not going to work like that.
      I don’t want Holyrood to be for N. Ireland what Westminster is to us.
      And that’s exactly what is likely to happen.
      Why on earth would the people of N.Ireland be better served by a Union with us,than either the one they have or with the rest of their own country?
      Also flung in the mix is a plan for some sort of court,to adjudicate all this.
      It may be just my suspicions mind and I can see that you are getting at framing a plausible route through to our independence.
      But I am reading part’s of that article as an attempt at back door federalism to keep these islands together.
      With a rebranding exercise and a tinkering of power.
      You know the sort of thing.
      Let’s keep a money Union.
      Let’s all do Defence together.
      We can approach the rest of the world as one (Foreign Affairs)
      Let’s have our new shiny Court distribute revenue from the Ex Regio Territory… it’s only fair.

      Which begs the question….where does that leave the writing of,the authority of and the implementation of our own Constution ?
      A Court such as the one described has to I think operate on the assumption that everything will tick along just as it is.
      We are to different now.
      And Ireland already has a written Constution so probably won’t join and have it (Constution) deffer to this court.
      So we really are just talking about the UK.

      Ultimately though the biggest risk is ending up Court ruled an not Parliament ruled.
      Jist Sayin.

    136. Soutron says:

      @Thepnr absolutely. A potentially less fraught and diplomatically simple route to single market access and free movement without the usual unionist scares..swapping Westminster for Brussels etc.

      Did anyone else fill out an SNP questionnaire recently regarding how they voted in both referendums and thoughts on Europe etc? I wonder if they’re being guided by those responses as well. Might well seem like the best option tactically and practically now.

      The middle option that pleases the no voting remainers and the yes voting leavers.

    137. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      Of course you do realise that the article I linked to was for those that are interested to get more information. I never said that I agreed with any of the authors views. They are the opinion of the author and not mine.

      The part I was interested in and if you read it, I’m sure you noticed was this which was too big to post below my own post.

      The last part is boring indeed, it is one mans opinion. I am not qualified to provide such an opinion but thought readers of Wings might have thought it interesting.

      We shouldn’t be held to account for the links we post offering opinion. If we were then doubt we would hear from Nana ever again.

      The advantage to its becoming an independent EFTA-EEA state is that Scotland would not be committed to joining the Euro under such an arrangement.

      Spain too could be reassured – and unlikely to exercise any veto it has – on Scotland becoming an EFTA-EEA state, since this would not set any kind of precedent for the secession of Catalonia with a view to its becoming a new member State of the EU in addition to Spain.

      But once established as an EFTA-EEA member State Scotland would, if so minded, then be in a position to open negotiations to re-join the EU since it would then fulfil the requirements of Article 49 TEU as a “European State which respects the values referred to in Article 2 TEU and is committed to promoting them”.

      As a matter of public international law, these negotiations can be conducted and binding agreements concluded while Scotland remains part of the UK, because public international law recognises that bodies other than independent States can enter into binding international Treaties, provided that this is within their competence as a matter of national law.

      For example Article 32(3) of the German Basic Law, the Grundgesetz states that “insofar as the Länder have power to legislate, they may conclude treaties with foreign states with the consent of the Federal Government”. One example of such an international Treaty is the 1960 Steckborn Convention concluded between the Land of Baden-Württemberg, the Free State of Bavaria, the Republic of Austria and the Swiss Confederation on the protection of Lake Constance against pollution.

      EU law itself already makes express provision in Regulation 1082/2006 for the creation by regional and local authorities within the Member States of “European Groupings of Territorial Co-operation” (EGTC) which are transnational bodies with legal personality created to facilitate territorial co-operation with other bodies in other Member States and/or with neighbouring overseas countries or territories associated with the EU (OCTs) and/or with neighbouring third countries outside the EU (“neighbouring” being defined in Article 3a(1) as including sharing a common land border or facing a common sea basin).

    138. I struggle to understand why there should be any important reason why we should not join the Euro. (or the dollar or the yen or whatever)

      There appears to be a perception that the Euro is not a good idea. In fact is has performed continuously better than the Pound and we seem to be stuck in a PoundGoodEuroBad perception of the little Englanders and the Brits

    139. Thepnr says:

      Since the authos is a Scottish QC specialising in EU Law, I guess his opinion has at least some validity.

    140. CameronB Brodie says:

      ….Also you can never have too much money or be too good looking

      You can, believe me. 😉

    141. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 8.53
      Yes I did realise that it was FYI you were posting,I am sorry I didn’t make that more clear.
      To be honest….and I am sure you will agree….my post was bloody long enough.
      Anyhoo for the avoidance of doubt…it was the article I was mainly commenting on….
      I actually do agree with you that EFFTA ect could work for us.
      And as I suspect like you was just exploring and dicussing the writing that’s doing the rounds on it.
      Also as I am sure you can tell…yes I did find the article interesting.
      So again sorry for giving the impression I was thinking these were your views I don’t.
      But I am glad you said something because I wouldn’t like to put anyone off posting a link either.
      No excuse really but the kids were running interference a bit when I was posting.
      Will try not to do that again…..no promises though!

    142. Thepnr says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      You may not have an issue with the Euro as currency Dave and neither do I but a great deal of those that voted NO do have an issue with the Euro. We have to keep that in mind when scraping for votes to get us over the line.

    143. Soutron says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill have a look at modern monetary theory (new economic perspectives is a good resource).

      Issuing your own currency is one of the most powerful economic tools a country can have at its disposal. I wouldn’t give those levers of control up to the fundamentally neoliberal ECB under any circumstances.

    144. Paula Rose says:

      Thepnr and Lizg I understand exactly what you are both saying – you will be at cross purposes if you continue.

    145. CameronB Brodie says:

      Breeks
      I’d be happy to remain in an EU that provides a framework for international cooperation, I’m not so happy with the one that appears to be forming, i.e. a centralised, corporatist super-state. I do think though that it would be beneficial to step forwards in to the world, surrounded by our EU friends. Get a feel of ourselves and where we fit in the world, before we put any thought in to what other approaches might suite our needs better.

      I’d also like some, well all, of my human rights respected.

    146. Thepnr says:

      Liz g

      No problem, for info it was this that sparked my ire.

      “I do have a few problems,firstly with what you describe as a five year naughty step for the Uk”

      Wasn’t me that described that, it was the writer of the article.

      Sorry for going off on one, we Independence supporters must stick together always 🙂

    147. ScottieDog says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      “I struggle to understand why there should be any important reason why we should not join the Euro. (or the dollar or the yen or whatever)”

      There are very good reasons

      We would be effectively using a foreign currency meaning that our country’s income would be restricted to what it can tax, how much it could make from exports and lastly what we could borrow.
      The Euro countries are restricted by the stability growth pact, meaning they are only supposed to run deficits up to 3% of their GDP and have a maximum debt stock of up to 60% GDP. This is what stopped Greece having the ability to stimulate its economy – which is what it needs.

      The stability growth pact was put together by neoliberal mainstream economists (like the ones running the UK) who don’t actually understand how the aggregate economy works. They conflate a country’s finances with a firm or household and so believe that govt making savings (austerity) actually works. What they fail to see is that in aggregate one person’s spending is another’s income. So in aggregate you reduce spending – you reduce income and the whole thing spirals downward – unless the government intervenes. Greece not having a central bank and currency had to abide by the stupid rules and the rest is history. Can anyone tell me Greece is sovereign?

      The above is why the Eurozone is grinding to a halt. Countries aren’t able to exercise their sovereign right to spend and stimulate their economies.

      Eurozone counties face a high cost of borrowing because they are not currency issuers. They are currency users. They don’t have a sovereign central bank like the UK which can guarantee every bond issues will be honoured. Unlike the UK they can most certainly default and hence are a higher investment risk.

      The UK has ran consistent deficits since WW2. Its debt tripled in just 10 years, yet interest rates (the interest at which it ‘borrows’) Went down to almost zero – where they are today, completely flying in the face of neoliberal economic theory. Japan, America, Australia are all in the same boat. Why?
      Because they are currency issuers. They can never default. The Bank of England owns one third of UK gilts which it accomplished by marking up an accounting entry in its computer. Any investor will know that UK bonds are a guaranteed safe investment.

      It becomes quite clear when you compare the fortunes of Iceland and Greece in the aftermath of 2008. The following is a good summary of why Iceland is going from strength to strength and Greece is ruled by Brussels…
      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=18609

      p.s. Ireland is pretty much a ‘brass plate’ economy. It attracted some monstrous US firms by reducing corporate tax to register in Ireland giving it what would seem like overnight miracle growth but very little of that is real wealth.

    148. Clapper57 says:

      I can understand why they decided NOT to release their film noir.

      Was it directed by the ghost of Bergman ?

      BTW read a brilliant response to a David Coburn tweet .

      Coburn : “SNP days in Scotland are numbered”

      Response to Coburn’s tweet by a very funny guy : “Didn’t you also say that about Luke Skywalker until Princess Leia choked your fat neck with that chain “?

      I laughed and laughed so much at that…..gaun yirsel funny guy……Brilliant response.

      Sometimes you just need humour as it’s the best thing to deflate pompous beasts who burden us….constantly.

    149. Liz g says:

      Paula Rose & Thepnr
      I don’t think we will get to cross purposes.

      I have said before that I find it difficult to punctuate properly.
      Therefore the tone of what I am trying to say doesn’t always look right even to me when I read it back.
      But more than that first person,third person stuff …well let me just say… I could write better stories than Jackey if I knew how to do that.

      But I think it was just carelessness this time.

      So I absolutely accept I sounded like it was Thepnr I was crediting with that statement.
      It shouldn’t have been cause I knew fine well it was the author’s.
      And I am glad to have the chance to apologise and clear it up.

      I would much rather someone said something,than just thought it.
      How stupid would I have looked if anyone else reading,clealy saw I had got it wrong and it hasn’t been put right.

      This site is about being accurate in what we say,and we should always point out when we pick up on something that’s not.
      There’s only going to be a problem if someone can’t admit they were wrong.
      Well I think so anyway.
      And obviously this time I was.
      Treasure it Paula Rose cause it doesn’t happen often….!!!!

    150. Sinky says:

      lets put the £800 million into perspective, UK government spending almost half of that sum on one house in central London.

    151. Gary45% says:

      You heard it hear first.
      Westminster now has its get out of jail card, regarding its continuous shambles.
      BREXIT.
      Scotland is totally FCKUED, there is no way Whingestan will get cuts if Scotland can be used as a scape goat.
      Lets sit back and laugh at the 2014 nay sayers, I have NO SYMPATHY.
      Just heard Murdo(I crack one off to Brenda)Fraser, on S hit TV, TWAT, wee message to Yoon trolls, you have NO credible politicians.
      Humza, 1 million % behind you.

    152. Stoker says:

      WOS archive links for January 2012 now over on O/T.

    153. Terry says:

      The first video freaked me out. But I did like the scenario of the island being divided in two. Scotland sails off towards Norway while wengland heads west to USA trump land. Result.

      By the way if you haven’t read Project Fear yet by joe pike you are missing out. A fascinating insight behind the BT campaign. And a rare bit of objective truth from the unionist side. Recommended.

    154. HandandShrimp says:

      From what Hammond said it looks like another of Better Together’s promises will turn to dust and the triple lock pension pledge will barely last another three years.

      Are there any of their headline selling points still standing?

    155. Tam Jardine says:

      Thepnr

      Thanks to you an others for your discussion on EFTA. I think we need to be a little bit cool about this and above all confident. Confident in ourselves above all else.

      I would like to see us remain in the EU but it is not unconditional. We have loads to offer but we can fall into the trap of undervaluing ourselves and thinking we are not wanted or valuable. It comes from being in an abusive relationship.

      No-one is going to be interested until we take the obvious confident step of planting our flag in the ground and saying “this is this”.

      We are going to have a hell of a time if we are relying on the EU or EFTA taking the diplomatically difficult step of saying we can 100% join.

      The argument is the basics. The list of what percentage of x we have. Being a big net exporter. Plus all the negative stuff.

      The UK is tanking- it has not recovered from 2008 and I fear Hammond’s dreary Autumn Statement was sugar coating the situation. Westminster is in deep, deep shit and they know it.

      The fireworks will start with the appeal in December. If the government are defeated then the union is over. If the government win the union is over.

      I know we are used to this carcass trudging on endlessly like a zombie but we have simply become immune to how vulnerable the union is right now. It will not withstand the next constitutional crisis.

      The union has survived based on the supposed strength of the south-east of England and our supposed weakness. It will not survive the self-inflicted headshot of brexit.

      We have options, we have international goodwill and we are in a far better position than most to face up to the difficulties all countries will face in the future due to geographic and demographic circumstances. Finally we have 40% of the electorate who are already quite prepared to endure a hard border and a vast activist base who are gearing up.

      Interesting times brother- I am becoming more positive with each passing day.

    156. heedtracker says:

      CameronB Brodie says:
      23 November, 2016 at 9:02 pm
      ….Also you can never have too much money or be too good looking

      Well one thing about their Scotland region, its a pretty unique kind of political struggle, when you have hard core tory yoons like Kevrage, who’s got the whole of the BBC led teamGB media industry monstering everything and anything Scottish democracy and independence, but one SNP tweet gets up the twits nose so high, Daily Record lets him ejaculate SNP bad all over their lucky reader.

      And its always all SNP bad, well everything is SLab wise but latest Hammond fiscal catastrofuck definitely is Sturgeon bad. Oh well, last week we vile seps were all neo fascist Trumpian types, this week the idiots blame Scots.gov for being bad about planet toryboy economics, 500 miles away in London.

      Wish we’d all voted YES, as these two know, hopefully.

      Duncan Hothersall Retweeted
      Cat Headley ?@Cat_Headley 6m6 minutes ago
      Confused by SNP logic that expert warnings about Brexit are being proven right=>indy, despite experts making similar warnings about indy.

    157. CameronB Brodie says:

      OT. I don’t mean to be presumptuous but I think Sherry Coutu would agree with me that space is not the same as place.

      Scotland and England have intrinsic characters and identities that produce different needs and opportunities.

      One Nation Britain is a (Victorian) modernist concept that seeks to deny this reality. OK, it acknowledges the reality but only within the confines of the ideological construct. Such an approach to national development can be expected to hinder Scotland’s economic performance, social well-being, environmental quality and the sustainability of post-modern Scottish culture and society.

      It is that serious folks, Scotland is faced with eventually becoming a footnote in history. A shortbread obituary. We are in the middle of a global paradigm shift driven by neo-liberal globalisation. Some of those across the pond and down south have spotted this and chosen to strike out in their own ‘bold’ direction.

      I’d rather choose my own path towards an enabling environment secured by the respect of human rights. Fancy joining me?

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    158. Mochachoca says:

      Think of the tidal energy that the new sea channel will produce!

    159. Thepnr says:

      I love Wings, mainly because I can feel the determination for Independence that exists no matter what may be thrown in our direction.

      This is supposed to be Cybernat Central and a hotbed of Nationalist abuse LOL. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is a hotbed of discussion that seeks the truth.

      OK The Rev starts a discussion with an article and then it is up to all the contributors to expand that discussion. It’s a place that those of Independent mind say whatever they like.

      That is the root of it’s success, not just the great articles by the Rev and others but the ordinary Scot who contributes makes this a kind of special place.

      All the variety that Scotland has to offer is on view on Wings, as far as I’m concerned it is as representative of a Scot as you will ever get. Sadly I am excluding Tories in that view, but I won’t let that worry me. I already knew what they want and believe in and I’m not buying.

      WOS is very very important in our fight for Independence and that is why it is hated so much and many would love to see it closed down for their own reasons. I’ve heard there will be a smear innuendo piece in this weeks Sunday Herald.

      I’m interested, but suspect I’ll just laugh at the best they can do and carry on reading and posting on Wings.

      I’m certain that WOS added a minimum of 5% to support for Independence in the first referendum. Add another 5% in the second and Scotland will be Independent. As we continue to be attacked in the MSM we should carry on as we are and quietly convert our family and friends because this is working.

      Let’s stick together, encourage others to Yes. The path to victory.

    160. CameronB Brodie says:

      heedtracker
      I see DH is reverting to the Tory strategy of obstructing change through subjective, empirical waffle. Focusing on the minutia instead of valuing principle and thinking holistically. Did I say Tory thing? British National Socialists have been using this approach for years, keeping themselves in positions of power over Scotland. It is their birthright.

      It’s a neo-fascist thing. 😉

    161. manandboy says:

      Scotland’s National Security.

      Brutally ruthless and treacherous beyond belief. Such is the regime at Westminster. When was it ever any different. Hardly a basis for a lasting marriage or an equal partnership.

      In an era of uncertainty, established first by Brexit and then by the election of Donald Trump, if Scotland is to have a secure future, then it will have to be built upon a foundation of Independence as a first step.

      The EU has yet to go through the uncertainties of impending elections and who knows how far anti-elite voter sentiment will impact on the make-up and policy structure of the European Union in the period after these elections.

      Add to that calculation, the tectonic adjustment of the world’s shifting economic plates, and you have a future projection which is impossible to forecast, far less plan for.
      Like passengers on a cruise ship, we are very interested in changes to the daily menu, but perhaps without fully realising that the ship’s course has been changed, and while we know we are no longer going to where we signed up for, we have no idea where we will end up. C’est la vie, en 2016!

      When Nicola became Scotland’s First Minister, she could not have known the events and circumstances awaiting her. And yet, with political upheaval previously unheard of, and confronted by uncharted territory, so far, she is guiding Scotland, slowly but surely, along a path on which she is proving to be sure-footed. We can only hope that the clamour of anxious voices behind her does not distract or divert her. And it is here that we can be a real support, by renewing our trust in her. With powder dry, she may yet call on us for one supreme effort to secure Scotland’s future as an independent country in our own right.
      In an uncertain world, that’s the very least we might need.

    162. Thepnr says:

      @Tam Jardine

      I’m neither advocating full EU or EFTA membership. Just what is best for Scotland in order to gain Independence. I’ll leave that up to the Scottish Government to decide the best path.

      I do believe though it is worth pointing out articles that describe those institutions and let readers form their own opinions now.

      I only care about Independence to be honest because I know absolutely that EU or EFTA membership would be possible. Before Independence though I want to gather more votes, that’s it.

      How best? I’ll put my trust in the Scottish Government for now.

    163. heedtracker says:

      It’s a neo-fascist thing

      What is a fascist and does anyone ever actually say they are one? Nazi’s in America were on tv nazi saluting yesterday, so at the very least, there’s no ambiguity over there.

      BBC Newsnight tonight pretty comprehensive stuff on Hammond, now its a Daily Heil dude, Polly Toynbee and chums. Ofcourse no Scots voice but we all know how that crew terribly monster Scottish democracy, day in day out.

      Tonight BBC r4 PM show had Eddie Mair discussing BNP types and explained how they have almost no elected rep now. Yet Farage and UKIPers are almost never off the BBC airwaves.

      There may trouble ahead, but the right are coming to get you, hiding under your bed, online, CiFing on WoS:D

      The one ray of hope is Nic Robinson’s Today show newspaper morning headline round up no longer includes the Express roasters. Very odd.

    164. Tam Jardine says:

      Thepnr

      I know you are not taking a view but you are opening up discussion. You’ve made me think about EFTA as an alternative which I had not in all seriousness really considered.

      What put me off was the idea of contributing without being involved and having a say on the big decisions. I think the EU needs a new, progressive and fresh voice who can re-invigorate the whole project.

      Anyway- thanks to you and others for the discussion. Having watched Murdo Fraser appearing not once but twice on STV laying into Humza I am done for the night.

    165. Thepnr says:

      @heedtracker

      Often you really do talk a load of shite. Sometimes funny often not.

      Oh and I’d appreciate if you stop posting direct links please use archive.is like you already know how to.

    166. Dr Jim says:

      After all the dust has settled and in the clear light of day if there are seriously many folk left who think staying within this asylum of a Union is still a good idea then these people need medical intervention of the most radical kind

      But one thing’s for sure those at the top the Boris’s and the Hammonds and the Mays will still be having their Hob Nobs of choice with their Earl Grey and dining at “The club” for lunch with “Fwiends” don’t you know, and having a huge giggle at the whole giant mess they’ve got us in to Stanley as they quaff their Champers and take calls from their investment bankers as to how they’d like their money
      Dollars, Euros, or just plain old bullion because it certainly wont be in Pounds Sterling Har Har Har

      The game has changed big time and if you’re an earner under thirty grand a year the Brexit cricket bat just knocked you for six Howzaat and you just fell in to the category poor department along with the disabled and strugglers, because boy is your life about to alter, because you’re going to be made to pay

      Now you’ll just have to shop in Aldis like the rest of us and start that diet you’ve been meaning to go on….Or…given the opperchancity be no worse off and vote for Independence with the hope of gradually being better off over time, of which has just run out for the United Asylum of England

      Brexit means Brexit, did ye Aye!

    167. defo says:

      The WoS police have spaketh. ;-(

    168. Capella says:

      @ Heedtracker – we don’t say fascist or Nazi anymore, we call it “alt-right”, as in Adolf Hitler and the alt-right Party. It’s newspeak.

    169. Thepnr says:

      @defo

      Your point is?

    170. defo says:

      Thepnr
      Show me the deputy badge Stuart gave you first.

    171. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Breeks @ 19:50:

      I believe Europe has a much bigger incentive, and without a doubt more leverage, to help Scotland find its feet

      I’m with you on this one. Even more than that, if the EU can rise to the occasion, successfully keeping Scotland in while England exits would be a great way of reinforcing internal stability while also signalling to the rest of the world that it really knows how to wield the real economic power it possesses.

      Besides, as somebody pointed out to me the other day, the EU is acutely aware that an iScotland remaining as a full member has the potential to become the major secure internal supplier of energy.

      We might be wee, but we could be the future biggest player by far in the EU energy stakes, given a suitable level of investment (one that we’re never going to see from a jealous London). And I don’t mean oil, which will see us through for a while, but renewables, especially tidal. This could be BIG, provided we don’t sell ourselves short yet again.

      Obviously I don’t know what Nicola is being told, but I think it unlikely the EU is missing the huge potential of this one, even if some of us evidently are.

    172. heedtracker says:

      Thepnr says:
      23 November, 2016 at 11:40 pm
      @heedtracker

      It’s only comment but a nifty solution is, don’t read them. Easy as that.

    173. Thepnr says:

      @defo

      I’ll ask you again. Your point is?

    174. ScottishPsyche says:

      The media are getting upset about fake news. To quote a really poor author, “you could not make it up”. Well obviously some could and they do, day in, day out and now it is the fault of new media who must be silenced.

      It amazes me that when newspapers give each other prizes at the end of the year they struggle to find more than one story each that is even remotely worthy of reading never mind an accolade.

      It is time to do away with the idea that an accurate quality collection of articles is possible every day and is worth paying for. Journalism needs a new model – article based perhaps – so that repetitive mono-opinion writers are not carried by their better colleagues. Remuneration based on article sales rather than the entire paper would show who actually brings in the readers. Also the person who writes the copy is responsible for the accuracy and fallout if there are discrepancies or complaints. Controversial writers would have to deal personally with and answer their critics.

      Maybe the crossword guy would be the only one in the DR who would make enough to pay his mortgage?

    175. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. to One Nation Britain is a (Victorian) modernist concept that seeks to deny…..

      This is built on the foundation of a “traditionalist” culture that resists “modernity” and which venerates an Establishment defined through bloodline and economic privilege. Not a recipe for a sustainable, inclusive future.

      I hate hypocrisy built on fudge!

    176. Cactus says:

      Ludovico and the dudes kicked A ra right inda Armadillo..

      Tonight.. Ludo spoke to Glasgow through da piano hammers.

      I prophicate a prophecy,

      Scotland knows *

    177. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi there! Nice to be with you! Welcome to another “pick on each other” night!

      Where the whole independence thingy takes second place to scoring off each other. Eh’m fur bed…

    178. defo says:

      Thepnr You will will you. OOOOH
      As I didn’t actually mention you in the ‘police’ snipe, it’s apt that you replied, as it’s you I meant.
      Your a self opinionated twat, who thinks that WoS belongs to you.

      Satisfied now ? I am.
      I’ve been dying to say that for years, but being polite, and in the name of common purpose I’ve held back.

    179. Thepnr says:

      @defo

      Didn’t I just say earlier this:

      It’s a place that those of Independent mind say whatever they like.

      That is the root of it’s success, not just the great articles by the Rev and others but the ordinary Scot who contributes makes this a kind of special place.

      If I want to say your talking shite then I will say it. Twat.

    180. Thepnr says:

      “I’ve been dying to say that for years”

      Bit sad is it not?

    181. liz says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland I am in agreement also.

      Because our news has always been via London.I truly believe we have been ‘invisible’ to the EU.

      Post Brexit has been a game changer.

      Before that the EU would only communicate with a member state, ie, the UK.
      Now they are happy to give the SG a position

    182. Cactus says:

      Some may mock, some may rock Conway Twitty..

      But he the real thing

      Caledonia*s

    183. Chic McGregor says:

      @Thepnr
      On Facebook there is a contributor who assures us he is pro indy but who is always posting Yoon articles.

      He says that is because we need to know what the opposition is saying.

      I said to him, ‘Like we don’t get enough of that through the MSM?’

      Then, from talking to others, I realised that Yoon attempts at propaganda are one of our biggest recruiters. Indeed, some told me that they had had their Damascene moment from seeing the posts by that very same guy.

      Next time I met him I said ‘Well done, Carry on’, and told him , ‘Yes, it is working in our favour.’

      The harder the MSM push the propaganda, the more the penny drops with the public.

      Perhaps there is some sense in helping them do that.

      Mind you, not sure if that effect is still likely here where most readers are pro indy to start with, although I suppose there are always a few first time visitors around.

    184. defo says:

      “Oh and I’d appreciate if you stop posting direct links please use archive.is like you already know how to.”

    185. Cactus says:

      Let Glasgow Flourish.

    186. CameronB Brodie says:

      Respecting difference can be difficult living under a system of oppression that leaves little space for tolerance and love.

      We’re all human even if the British state denies our inalienable human rights….

      “The right to development is an inalienable human right by virtue of which every human person and all peoples are entitled to participate in, contribute to, and enjoy economic, social, cultural and political development, in which all human rights and fundamental freedoms can be fully realized.” (Article 1.1, Declaration on the Right to Development)

      “The human right to development also implies the full realization of the right of peoples to self-determination, which includes, subject to the relevant provisions of both International Covenants on Human Rights, the exercise of their inalienable right to full sovereignty over all their natural wealth and resources.” (Article 1.2)

      http://www.un.org/en/events/righttodevelopment/pdf/rtd_at_a_glance.pdf

    187. Chic McGregor says:

      CammieB

      Some good posts tonight.

    188. Thepnr says:

      @Chic McGregor

      I’m not saying anything about anybody. If you read every post like I do then make you own mind up. I’m sure you agree.

    189. Cactus says:

      Can I get a second on my 12:50..

      Frack the tories!

      😉

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Chic McGregor
      Thanks Chic, I appear to be getting up-to-speed. No longer Rusty, Edinburgh. Perhaps it’s the lack of medication? 🙂

    191. Cactus says:

      Independence for Scotland.

      That is all.

      Night night.

    192. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      You were asking for the whereabouts of a 30 minute BBC Scotland Rankin-Vettriano documentary missing from internet archives. If produced by an indie company that’s where you should make contact, assuming the company, or its producer, are still around. Hope you find it!

    193. Thepnr says:

      @defo

      Thanks for the laughs.

      @Breeks

      Thanks for your views on EFTA

      @Nana

      Just thanks.

    194. ian murray says:

      Still working on the video
      Which one did McTernan pick?

    195. Liz g says:

      Thepnr 12.57 OT
      Since your Sayin you read every post.
      I am sure you have read all the discussion/blame and justification of the elderly pretty much deciding the vote.
      So that’s why I am primarily asking you…but also anybody else who is still around.

      Just read through a link over on Revs twitter -why don’t we start blaming young people for not getting off their arses,and allowing the older generation to dictate the vote- or words to that effect.

      Now I am not for BLAMING anybody… people vote how they vote
      That’s the Whole Point….but …
      Is it wrong to say that,to young people.

      Basically get off your arse and vote or old people who don’t have to live with it.Will keep you tied to this shit!
      A take control of the vote take it away from them (numerically) Own it type thing?

      I know the SNP would never go down that route
      Should the activists though?
      Thoughts?

    196. Ealasaid says:

      @ Thepnr

      Do you think the EFTA/EEA solution you talk about is the ‘holding pen’ that was being sorted out for us with the EU by NS immediately after Brexit?

      It would give time for the Brexit negotiations to conclude and for a newly Independent Scotland to get itself up and running. There would be time later to decide if we preferred the full EU by another referendum.

      It would also give the EU time to sort itself out and decide where it is heading and where it needs to reorganise.

    197. call me dave says:

      Hammond warned against Brexit and no one listened. Now it’s payback

      http://archive.is/NbpGF

      Clinton 2 million votes ahead and still counting (2 weeks later) 🙁

      http://archive.is/mZ94N#selection-1135.0-1965.11

    198. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      There is no blame. That’s a start.

      Young people did get off their arse and voted Yes. Turnout was 85% which is high. Next time I predict over 90% and the young will turn out.

      If you want to change the mind of the older voter then talk to yer mum or dad, your granny or grandad. YOUR JOB and ours liz.

    199. yesindyref2 says:

      @cmd
      Actually the most significant thing I think IS what the Grun calls a whimper – moving the budget to the Autumn, and making the then spring statement very small (mostly OBR stuff).

      I think that’s good news, possibly a very clever stroke, but I daresay the analysts will right now, be working at fever pitch burning lights ‘n oil to figure out what it means.

      The dreaded Osborne and his “I’m important” two budgets a year was a pain.

      Might not be much help for the Scottish budget though.

    200. Tom B says:

      EU Parliament voted today to curb free-speech and media scrutiny of its activities, proscribing individual broadcasters, lumps RT in with terrorist US-Proxy Al-Quada/ISIS. They want to blacklist, discredit and silence personages, journalists, politicians, commentators who’ve appeared on programs like Sputnik, and while I loathe George Galloway who is becoming more like Andrew Neil in his gestures and utterances every day, wouldn’t like to see a witch-hunt against him any more than Alex Salmond who has guested on RT many times though his recent appearances have been pitiful. The same thing happened to Iran’s PressTV, now only a distant memory for U-KOK viewers, instead we have the western-compliant Quatari ‘puppet-royalty’ owned and run Al-Jazeera muddying the waters.

      It was pure through the looking glass/down the rabbit-hole this day with this vote, as the EU not liking reality choose to create their own instead. They have crossed a threshold, confirmed their derangement and determination to continue off into complete irrelevance. This has set a charge which is likely to go off at some future time with disastrous destructive consequences.

      Does this fill you with confidence, or with white knuckle terror?

      How did your MEP vote yesterday the 23rd November 2016? Is it even possible to find out, it certainly will be tougher after this vote to find anything unfavourable or damaging to EU or NATO policies, where’s the transparency? This is a serious matter and a serious question for the Pollyanna Europhiles.

      You people who’ve swapped aims from Independence whatever it’s going to take till we again run our country ourselves as we see fit, to simply becoming supplicants to institutions that are every bit as rotten and corrupt as Westminster, were surely fair-weather supporters and are the real enemy within.

      It’s not my idea of Independence. Not any kind of Independence. And yes this argument was made against Free by ’93 and such slogans long ago, it was valid then, it is more so now as the EU slides gracelessly into totalitarianism and farce. The SNP every day starts to look more and more like a Soros-style Colour-Revolution – selling out the people to petty local and bigger oligarchies – a successful one that has gone under the radar of most observers.

      Do you people ever get out of your own little bunkered self-reinforcing circle-jerk.
      You are every day seeming further and further from reason and from reality, like the EU itself. First Bateman then WGD and now Wings contributors fall into this trap of putting the EU above all else. Above Scotland, in every possible sense.

      The EU is rank rotten, not reformable in any way, not even worth the effort or care, however long it staggers on looking more and more despotic and ridiculous every day, its end is certain and cannot come soon enough. It’s finished, and under no circumstances would I vote for Independence predicated on continued EU membership, though once I would have, I have seen the true nature of this beast and there’s plenty more like me having similar thoughts. Sturgeon is leading us up a blind-alley with this policy linking the quite separate issues of Independence with EU vassalship. It’s dishonest politicking. The SNP did not even have Independence in its manifesto for the 2015 UK GE a fact many who voted for them learning must find inexplicable, they have shot themelves and all of us in the foot. They simply do not want Independence. Where you fawning lot see master tacticians and guile, I see insincerity of purpose or blistering incompetence.

      The people of England have done Scotland a great service in having the balls much of Scotland never had in 2014, Brexit can’t come soon enough. The EU is not a means to an end for Scotland, it will be simply the end for Scotland. The final humiliation, confirmation that if we can be so easily diverted from our over-riding goal by false hopes of an EUtopia, at this time then the too stupid part of ‘too poor, too wee, too stupid’ applies to us in spades, we deserve all the disrespect and derision aimed at us. We set our sights low and by god we’ve not managed even that.

      We’re not going to be ‘caught’ a second time. Stuff your EU.

      This is in the vein of constructive criticism, the attack dog pack mentality and the resident expert, gatekeeper regulars are driving discordant dissenting Indy supporters away. It’s all becoming rather affected and twee here, the untrue back then Tartan Tories jibe is starting to seem ever more fitting every day –if you lot are in any way representative, all is lost.

    201. Macart says:

      @Liz g

      There is only one place to look in the ‘blame game’ IMO those who compose a narrative and those who sell a narrative.

      No population is EVER truly, wholly politically engaged. They just want to cut along with each other as best possible and get on with the already hard enough job of living, getting from a to b, raise their kids, pay the bills and put their feet up after a hard slog. Most folks know their own limitations. They know they’re not economists, or statesmen. They know they’re not legislators or soldiers. They know they’re not lawyers or civil servants. So they defer. They rely on, they trust in others, their elected representatives and a system. They rely on a media to act as watchdogs, guardians for them and hold that system to account and tell them when its got stuff wrong and who they should and shouldn’t vote for. WHAT they should and shouldn’t believe.

      What happens though when those who create the message and those who report that message become one and the same? They become an orthodoxy, a closed shop and the public? A captive audience. Decades of narrative creator and messenger working from the same page… literally. A co-opted and corrupted message spoon fed to a captive audience for generations. Cosy arrangement.

      They can basically tell you WHAT to think, WHEN to think and HOW you should think.

      Take a look around us at a society fed on a diet of dual party politics, celebrity dross, ethnic intolerance, class envy and hatred of the other. A society divided, disenfranchised and kept deliberately in a state of perpetual confusion, fear and mistrust.

      No need to wonder why people born and raised in this environment vote the way they do. The challenge is for those independent enough to have raised their aspirations above and beyond this awful drudge to change that environment.

      IMO its not good enough to simply blame the people who voted. People vote for so many, many reasons, but basically they attempt to vote their conscience on the choices provided. You have to understand why people vote the way they do and lay the blame for that at the right door. We need to give voters the choice, new ideas and new ideals to vote for and most importantly give them the confidence to be able to make that choice.

    202. Thepnr says:

      @Ealasaid

      Truth is I haven’t a clue. I do believe though that the SG have a plan. If we’re patient then we will find out what it is. Sorry I couldn’t help more.

    203. Liz g says:

      Macart @ 2.38
      Thanks for that.
      I don’t like the blame game either.
      But when I read that I did think it seemed like it was was fair comment.
      And wondered has anyone ever pointed it out to the young voter’s.
      I know it should be obvious but as you say most just want to get on with other things!

    204. Thepnr says:

      This is just one of the reasons for Independence. No apologies for the obcenities you will see.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtK-QCiD-FE

    205. Liz g says:

      Tom B
      Then why are you here?

    206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g,

      Ach it’s just like that pete the other day but on the opposite end of the political spectrum. (So opposite in fact that it almost joins up.)

      Just using Wings to offload all his/her own pet frustrations.

      Someone who has somehow failed to clock the genuinely decisive result of the EUref right across the whole of Scotland. But maybe isn’t a democrat anyway. Which would be no surprise.

      Jeez, anyone who supposedly supports indy but lashes out at the likes of WGD at this crucial time is living on Planet Splitter.

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland
      RT is right, the resolution (though correct) is one-sided. I guess if I was an MEP and felt full of energy and bold at the time, I’d have put forward an amendment to include the misinformation disinformation and bias of the EU media reporting of Russia, and if the amendment was knocked back, have abstained. But yeah, splitters. Funny really, WOS is a lot about fighting such bias, and making everyone more resistant to it.

    208. Tony M says:

      Liz g try not to exemplify the behaviour described in my last paragraph. There are still quality articles above the line, and interesting commenters below amidst increasing amounts of dross.

      Yesindyref2 ditto.

      Nothing originating in the EU parliament is legislative. You’re simply being disingenous.

      The vote is of deep concern, as is much else the EU has been and is doing, if this is the thinking of a majority of MEPs then all of us, however much you like to deny it, have a problem. It is a massive step the EU has taken, and in quite the wrong direction. Those documents are an hilarious melange of gobbledygook, there are hundreds of unconnected and separate issues thrown together wildly, demonstrating conclusively that EU Parliament are just wasting their own and everyone else’s time, simply grandstanding and deluding themselves they’re on the side of ‘right’. Many of the ‘problems’ they see looking down through the wrong end of their telescope: Islamic Extremism, failed state in Ukraine, justifiably defensive stance of Russia, are to a large extent of their own making.

      It’s pure hypocrisy and projection whilst at the same time confirming it is actively doing all the things it accuses other of and seeks to proscribe for all but itself. It’s admitting they’re in the business full-time of suppressing criticism and critical voices. Thanks for the links they confirm the situation is far worse than anyone can possibly imagine and that this is the beginning of the end for the EU. It’s a suicidal declaration of war by the EU on Russia primarily, but for all of us it’s formalisation of the death of free speech.

      The EU is not there, it is not and should never become its purpose, to originate and conduct ideological, economic or any other form of warfare against third parties or against its own ‘subject’ peoples. But that is exactly what it is doing and isn’t ashamed who knows it.

      The EU signed its own death warrant yesterday, there is nothing left to do but carry it out.

    209. Tony M says:

      COWARDS. CENSOR WHAT YOU CANNOT ANSWER.

    210. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 3.24
      Aye Splitter is right…. Even joined up thinking seems beyond them.
      Wonder if they ever read back what they write?

    211. K1 says:

      If that’s ‘constructive criticism’ I’d hate tae be on the receivin’ end o’ a compliment fae him.

      *listen tae us ‘attack dog pack’…woof woof*

    212. Breeks says:

      @thepnr
      I’m happy to kick the idea of EFTA around in my head, but I’m afraid I’m in the camp where I want Scotland to be a member country of the EU, not just to access to the Free Market as some ad hoc compromise. Staying in Europe has revitalised the Independence debate within two years of an Independence referendum, and for me, that benchmark only exists where we are defending the membership we already have. Swapping EU membership for EFTA membership fully undermines the whole case for staying in the EU, which is the bedrock of the second shot at Indyref2.

      You misunderstand my point about stability. The stability the EU provides is to avoid wars amongst member states like those which have bedevilled Europe for centuries. Without the EU, we revert to the late 19th and early 20th Century doctrines for peace and stability, just like those defence pacts and treaties which dragged the whole of Europe into WW1. I want the EU to survive, and succeed.

      Before you dismiss that as outdated ideaology, just look at prevailing disposition of the only EU member state to leave the EU, ( I know, Greenland, but I mean the UK) , it is run by right wing extremists deluded about their place in the World, but boasting about their military potential and defence spending in the same breath as maligning immigrants and non-patriots. The effect is immediate. Britain hasn’t left the EU yet, but already there is renewed tension over Gibraltar and sabre rattling towards Russia.

      I’m not saying the EU is the perfect panacea, and I note the caution many express about the Euro, however to see the other man’s perspective, I don’t see any Euro country rushing to adopt Sterling as a currency which stimulates growth. The UK has lost incalculable skills and potential in the past few decades and developed a basket case economy which is forever selling of parts of the estate but yet never seems to get more than one or two steps ahead of the bailiffs, because the wealth is forever skimmed off by the schemers and spivs. It trades in confidence rather than actual commodity, and loses perspective of true value which directly leads to criminally inept property markets bloated and saturated with grotesquely inferior properties commanding equally grotesquely over valued prices. It is morally improper, it sells our heritage, crafts and skills down the river, vastly downgrades the spec of property that is built, and is essentially the story of an economy living on borrowed time. Any we look down on the Euro with disdain??? Isn’t that the same delusion?

      I restate my pet theory that Britain had to get out of Europe, because Europe was going to expose what a complete sham the U.K. Has for an economy. Ponzi scheme, fur coat nae knickers, call it what you will. It is a masterpiece of illusion which cannot survive forensic scrutiny.

    213. bjsalba says:

      O/T
      Just heard an economist on R$ casually mention that putting in Article 50 was scheduled for May. When did that happen? Last I heard it was March.

    214. yesindyref2 says:

      That got me distracted for a bit (motto: always try to make a good thing out of a bad thing) so I’ve done a little update on my EU page, just a little about the 3 other institutions, and a dummy bit for the EU budget I’m halfway through researching, but with an interesting link.

      https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/

      Partly so we get our terrminology right, as I got half caught out with the difference between the CJEU and the ECJ on a Herald thread – we were both wrong and right.

      The CJEU has 2 bodies, the one we’re interested in being the Court of Justice (ECJ) – “deals with requests for preliminary rulings from national courts, certain actions for annulment and appeals.”

    215. bjsalba says:

      Bah! Meant R4 not R$!

    216. Macart says:

      Just doin’ the rounds of some news channels this mornin’ and dear oh deary me. The smug punditry smiling away and declaring we’re going to inflate our way out of bother.

      Not sure they’ve noticed, but since the crash wages for folk at ground level, in the UKs rush to austerity, have either frozen or gone backward. So if prices across the board are set for a prolonged period of inflation, those already on borderline levels of poverty are set to be unceremoniously kicked right into the poverty zone.

      Yay!

      Haven’t looked round the news stands yet, but I’m sure there’ll be headlines of deficit black holes and debt mountains all over the place and if not? Then any minute now…

      FFS!

    217. Ken500 says:

      The Unionists are lying through their teeth. Every time they open their mouths it is a lie. The hype of the ‘Budget’. Just a pack of lies.

      Scotland is losing £20Billion a year to the Union. £2Billion a month. Even more on Brexit. With unfair taxes and criminal deceit of public money. Loan repayments on money not borrowed in Scotland. Excessive debt in the rest of the UK. The mismanagement of the Scottish economy by the Unionists is appalling beyond believe. They are not even voted for in Scotland, The Tories are ruining the world economy to line their pockets with public money and tax evade.

      Illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion by the Unionists is an international disgrace, Brexit will cost even more. Unfair unequal taxes in Scotland 40% on the Oil and Gas sector when the price had fallen. Since 2010 60% to 80% tax when the price had fallen 75%. The Unionist have destroyed the Oil & Gas sector. Losing thousands of jobs in Scotland. Either through total incompetent ignorance or malicious spite.

      The Unionists behaviour is illegal under international Law. Causing the biggest migration crisis in Europe, costing Trillions. Illegally bombing the Middle East for years and causing devastation, Along with France and the US carving up the Middle East and illegally taking their resources. Causing illegal wars and criminal invasion. Illegally killing and maiming millions of innocent people.

      Supporting illegal apartheid States and absolute despot Monarchies, whose policies would never be supported or tolerated in their own countries. Total hypocrites. Reneging on their responsibilities and trying to walk away from the mess they have created and destroying the world economy.

      Scotland loses £20Billion (including lack of investment) a year, and gets back £800Million over five years. Not enough to pay the debt repayments on Westminster borrowing in the rest of the UK.

      The Unionists are an International disgrace. A complete bunch of incompetent, malicious liars. . Every word they utter is a lie. In order tomembezzle £Billions and screw up the world economy. If Scotland doesn’t vote for Independence Scotland will not survive. The Unionists are draining £Billions out of Scotland in policies not supported in Scotland. They are creating a complete and utter mess.

      They have been at it since 1928 and before. Lying, cheating and stealing, then keeping it hidden under the Official Secrets Act. To and cover up their criminality. They committed electrol fraud and lied to take the UK out of the EU. The Tories are complete and utter criminals.

      Tory MSP’s have got other jobs and other interests and are missing crucial votes at Holyrood/Westminster. They are milking the public purse for all they can get and reneging on their duties and commitments. In the most obscene way. Making a mockery of commitment to Holyrood and their professional duties.

      Just like their colleague and associates at Westminster.. Their lying behaviour and manipulation is appalling. Most of them should be in jail. Manipulation figures and telling lies. Committing electoral fraud in every way. Not honouring promises or commitments. Lying through their teeth about everything including manifesto promises. A unelected sycophants of ‘psycho bastards’. Along with their sycophant, non Dom tax evading Press. No wonder the vast majority in Scotland will not vote for them.

      The way Scotland is treated within the Union is a breach of International Law. An appalling situation. A breach of the Law and the Union agreement. That Scotland should be treated equally, with it’s separate legal system and Laws honoured. Not subjected to unfair higher taxes and unfair distribution of public money. Taking £Billions out of Scotland and trying to hide the facts under the Official Secrets Act. Dunblane, Iraq etc for 100 years.

      Hammond described the area around Faslane as a ‘waste land’. It would be if it was up to him. 30 mins from one of Scotland’s biggest important Cities and the beautiful renown West Coast, Hammond sneered at Scotland being Independent and having a Navy to patrol it’s shores. Hammond is just another crook. The nukes were removed from Greenham Common. 20 mins from London, after protests in 1992.

      The unelected Tories are trying to take Scotland out of the EU. Against the majority wishes and cause devastation to the world economy. Actions against International Law. Led by the unelected Farague. The biggest crook of all. He has been embezzling public money for years to fund a political Party. A criminal offence. Laundering it illegal through offshore accounts held by Arron Banks. (Wiki leaks). A couple of complete crooks. He has been protected by the Tories, who share the spoils. He should be in jail. Along with the rest of them and the lying Press breaking every rules in the book. They will not get away with it.

      Vote SNP/SNP May 2017. Vote for Independence.

    218. Macart says:

      You really couldn’t make this shit up.

      Plenty of statements and quotes mentioned by the news readers from every party but one on the budget. Only one party’s thoughts have been utterly ignored. Tories, Labour even the utterly pointless Libdems.

      Take a wild guess at who is missing.

    219. Nana says:

      Autumn Statement: 11 Things Buried In The Small Print
      http://archive.is/0A70y

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/boris-johnson-david-davis-arrogant-european-union-officials-brexit-2016-11

      Is it any wonder the bbc do not show Scottish Questions
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2O0GEyKZOI

      https://maidsafe.net/

      I will post some more links in off topic so as not to completely take over this thread!!

    220. Phronesis says:

      ‘The political attempt to move forward has to…fight the old fight against suppressive movements working for vested interests and refrain from its own self castration by handing over agenda- setting to those whose power is to be considerably reduced…the reform momentum as it goes beyond the narrow debate on financial regulation,which is a highly technical discourse…

      Would embed the market in such a way it would be sufficiently free to unfold it’s essential and inimitable dynamism for the good of all…Markets in a decent capitalism would release their full potential for innovation and efficiency…alongside government regulations – a crucial instrument for a Green New Deal for a sustainable and just society…

      Economic democracy is a key concept in this context….The question of what form of ownership is chosen ,for example for the provision of public services,such as water ,electricity…should be decided on the grounds of expediency.Private enterprises are not more efficient if they focus mainly on paying lower wages and impose precarious working conditions…

      Markets can be instruments of emancipation…Unregulated markets result in ever- greater differences in income distribution and social participation’

      ‘Decent Capitalism A Blueprint for Reforming Our Economies’ Dullen,Herr ,Kellerman

      Now is not the time for democratic fatigue syndrome, the electorate should be demanding the reforms suggested in this book- decent capitalism will happen when it’s guided by decent people.

    221. Tom B says:

      Interesting in a discussion of EU censorship, Wings discreditably indulges in censorship. So this is a repost. Enjoy your little closed world. You’ve become part of the problem.

      Liz g try not to exemplify the behaviour described in my last paragraph. There are still quality articles above the line, and interesting commenters below amidst increasing amounts of dross.

      Yesindyref2 ditto.

      Nothing originating in the EU parliament is legislative. You’re simply being disingenous.

      The vote is of deep concern, as is much else the EU has been and is doing, if this is the thinking of a majority of MEPs then all of us, however much you like to deny it, have a problem. It is a massive step the EU has taken, and in quite the wrong direction. Those documents are an hilarious melange of gobbledygook, there are hundreds of unconnected and separate issues thrown together wildly, demonstrating conclusively that EU Parliament are just wasting their own and everyone else’s time, simply grandstanding and deluding themselves they’re on the side of ‘right’. Many of the ‘problems’ they see looking down through the wrong end of their telescope: Islamic Extremism, failed state in Ukraine, justifiably defensive stance of Russia, are to a large extent of their own making.

      It’s admitting they’re in the business full-time of suppressing criticism and critical voices. Thanks for the links they confirm the situation is far worse than anyone can possibly imagine and that this is the beginning of the end for the EU. It’s a suicidal declaration of war by the EU on Russia primarily, but for all of us it’s formalisation of the death of free speech.

      It’s pure hypocrisy and projection whilst at the same time confirming it is actively doing all the things it accuses others of and seeks to proscribe for all but itself.

      The EU is not there, it is not and should never become its purpose, to originate and conduct ideological, economic or any other form of warfare against third parties or against its own ‘subject’ peoples. But that is exactly what it is doing and isn’t ashamed who knows it.

      The EU signed its own death warrant yesterday, there is nothing left to do but carry it out.

    222. Chic McGregor says:

      Sorry Alex.

      Didn’t read your post critically enough.

      Thought you were complaining about H’s links per se but it was only the direct link aspect.

    223. Chic McGregor says:

      Breeks

      Good post 6:09

      That may well have been their motivation for Brexit but if it was it was flawed.

      England needs EU membership more than any other EU state.

      Brexit will hasten the collapse of the financial sector.

      The one silver lining, as I have suggested before, is that without the UK a much needed new ostpolitik between the rEU and Russia becomes possible.

    224. galamcennalath says:

      @Tom B

      EU Westminster is rank rotten, not reformable in any way, not even worth the effort or care, however long it staggers on looking more and more despotic and ridiculous every day, its end is certain and cannot come soon enough.”

      There, sorted for you.

      Seriously, which footprint is greater in Scotland, Westminster’s or the EU’s? Who interferes negatively in our affairs to a far greater extent? Which institution is the most undemocratic?

      Westminster is currently being controlled by a party 63% of UK wide voters rejected. It has an upper house which no one voted for. That upper house has guaranteed seats for the religious leaders of just one sect. In a Scottish context that ruling party have an even worse mandate and our elected representatives and their input are being ignored. Westminster is forcing policies on Scotland we reject.

      Does the EU base WMDs outside Glasgow? Does it take us to war? Does it intentionally damage our energy industries both renewable and hydrocarbon?

      The EU isn’t ideal, but in comparison to the clear and present danger Westminster represents to Scotland, I know where my priorities lie.

    225. Ken500 says:

      The EU and Russia will continue their dialogue as they have always done. Individually and collectively. Trading and gaining from common commerce and experience. Stopping war, poverty and inequality in Europe. Caused by the UK/US and French corrupt, lying, greedy politicians. Breaking International Law.

      The rest of the UK will sink into oblivion of total debt, inequality and unfairness. Out on a oblivious limb. Conned by corrupt, greedy weak politicians. The most unequal place in the world.

    226. Sinky says:

      Call Kaye asking folk to phone in if they feel left out over “the Government’s” budget proposals when she should have said the UK Government

    227. galamcennalath says:

      Chic McGregor says:

      The one silver lining … is that without the UK a much needed new ostpolitik between the rEU and Russia becomes possible.

      Yes, I agree.

      Also, Trump’s rhetoric on Russia was about sitting down and talking. If this turns out to be true then some heat may be taken out of the EU’s eastern border.

    228. Sunniva says:

      That voice over in the first one – the real BT one – seems to be Derek Riddell, who seems to be offered and accepts roles as sneaky, evil, creepy Scotsmen. Currently he’s Adam Gerrity in Missing. Was he ever prominent in BT? Wouldn’t put it past him, given his recent work, making out Scots to be evil and crawling.

      He’s got the likely background to be a BritNat. Educated Hutcheson’s Grammar, played rugby, father played for Berwick Rangers.

      Anybody know?

    229. Bob Mack says:

      @Tom B,

      “Enjoy your little closed world” That my good man is called Transference.

      Whilst the EU represents many countries under one heading and tries to grow, and whilst Wings invites opinion if backed up by facts rather than supposition, we have your statement.

      A look in the mirror is needed buddy.

    230. Ken500 says:

      The EU Parliament majority did not support the Motion. 307 voted for 385? voted against or abstained.

    231. Chic McGregor says:

      galamcennalath,

      Merkel and Hollande have already met with Putin in Berlin just last month. No UK representative present.

    232. Sinky says:

      OMG Dr Scott Arthur has again taken over Call Kaye programme

    233. Ken500 says:

      Do not listen BBC programmes for which there is no support. Boycottt. No listeners no programmes. They are destroying their own industry. Brewer contract has been terminated.

      Others are suspect. Andrew Neil, Marr.

    234. McBoxheid says:

      OT

      Reading the National this morning and the congratulations it received on it’s 2nd birthday, Happy Birthday, btw, it was interesting to see the difference of the last two contributions:

      Labour Culture spokesperson Lewis McDonald:

      “Newspapers are a vital industry employing thousands of people, with the level of misinformation we now sometimes see on social media accurate news reporting is more inportant than ever.”

      First Minister Nicola Sturgeon said:

      “Many congratulations to The National and all of it’s staff on this second birthday landmark.
      “I look forward to reading much more of the paper’s news, analysis and commentry – all of which provides a fresh perspective on Scotland and the wider world.”

      I’ll leave you you decide which one is more appropriate.

    235. call me dave says:

      Big Brian and Douglas Fraser on shortbread radio earlier. It took two of them to spit out the £2 trillion number and also tell us what we already knew about ‘city deals’.

      It is Westminster’s way to have some method of bypassing the SG and influencing some of the agenda in Scotland. Keeps folk like Mundell occupied and gives an excuse for a Unionist Minister from darn Sarf to visit the North and wave a flag.

      More powers to tax say some but I believe that it results in the existing Barnett formula being top sliced so we are no better off.

      Lovely front page in ‘The National’ this morning.
      I am out and about for the first time in a while OK so far 🙂

    236. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “COWARDS. CENSOR WHAT YOU CANNOT ANSWER.”

      What the hell are you on about? You’ve never commented here before today, so like all commenters your first one has to be manually approved as an anti-spam measure, as clearly noted on the About page. Calm yourself down.

    237. DerekM says:

      Jings who let uncle Tom out the yoon loony bin lol

      I am right everybody is wrong i read it in the express and heard it on the BBC.

      Though Tom you are slightly correct England did do us a big favour by being stupid enough to vote for brexit you were all so hating each other with mad project fears your unionist politicians failed to spot the constitutional h-bomb we threw into your little brexit party.

      Its not going to go away you know tick tock lol

    238. Cuilean says:

      Tom B,

      Dear God in Heaven, you made Stu resort to writing in capital letters.

      The horror. The horror.

    239. Les Wilson says:

      Thinking about the whole term of the “Union” and how it has served Scotland.

      25 *REASONS I HATE THIS “UNION”*

      1,The Union was enacted by elites definitely against the wishes of the people of Scotland.Protests were across the country, it was not wanted at all.

      2.England undermined the Darien project, setting up Scotland to fail. Introduced the alien Act to further isolate us.

      3.English troops were massed on the border, threatening another invasion.

      4.Over all, looking at our country, just what good has the “Union” been for Scotland, when it has been essentially English run for 307 years.
      Run primarily for English benefit and to curtail Scottish ambition at every turn.

      5.Kind words generally only come when they want us for something ie fight their wars.

      6. Scottish fatalities far exceeded those of other UK nations. Normally our soldiers were put in front and when needed in the rear, of heavy action, that is the answer to why our deaths were so great.

      7. We have been used and exploited for English gain, for 307 years on all levels.

      8. The propaganda of Westminster against Scotland is not new, it has always been used against us, when the situation requires it.

      The Scottish cringe has also been exploited and encouraged to keep us down and is a fine weapon for the “Union” promoting that Westminster is great, Scotland is useless. Knowing of course that we are anything but.

      9.Culloden, not happy to just win, the “Union” committed to the worst wanton slaughter ever undertaken by the British army. Destroying a whole highland culture and murdering at will under Westminster instructions.

      10. The Highland clearances, encouraged by Westminster to continue what happened after Culloden. Sheep being better thought of than people. Another shameful example of Westminster rule.

      11.Emigration from Scotland was encouraged to again add to the depopulation mantra of Westminster, English immigration to Scotland was of course encouraged.

      12. Scotland’s economy has always been manipulated by Westminster to make us look bad and dependent on the ” Union”, just as they like it.
      It suits their purpose and continues today.

      13.Westminster works to manipulate and deny our place in the Union, and lay us well below their standing, which it certainly is not.
      We were meant to be equal partners,not slaves, again it what they need to portray to keep us down.

      14. They have been stripping and using our assets of all descriptions since the “Union” began.

      15. They stole our oil to finance needs in England, and to stave off bankruptcy. This asset alone was/is huge for the UK treasury, who actively works to hide the extent of their theft.

      16. The illegally stole 6000 square miles of Scottish seas and created a way that oil from that area is not accounted for. Theft of a big magnitude.

      17.Denying Scotland ways to improve our country, for our people.
      More obvious today than ever before.

      18.Westminster will never willingly give Scotland it’s own powers to enable us to run our own country, this is seen today at every dealing With the Westminster monkey house.

      Power for us is less power for them, less control over Scotland cannot be allowed.

      19. They are happy to pander to the Unionist segment they created in Scotland and still depend on their support.

      20.Propaganda is now at hysterical levels against Scotland, via the BBC and other TV outlets and the newspaper outlets.
      We are instructed to believe their views of Scotland and lie to achieve that.

      21.The enemy within who cannot see or refuse to see that Scotland has been abused for 307 years.No matter what these ” proud Scots” remain blinded to reality and prefer another country. Who is only has their own interests, to govern us.
      Shame on them.

      22. They shut down our Highland regiments, and continue to degrade any military presence in Scotland. However they still charge us much more than they spend.

      23. Trident, despite the austerity they are going to carry on with the horrendously expensive mantoy. We do not want this weapon and it’s homing in Scotland, with weapons being deiven through the streets of our biggest city in the middle of the night. What other country would allow this disgrace.

      24, Scotland is riddled with nuclear debris, radiation known around a number of sites across our land. Who is going to clean all this up? We cannot get an answer.

      25. Being charged for large infrastructure projects in England, part of their idea to enhance themselves at our expense. Pooling and sharing? What a great idea for them.

      26. They are happy to see poverty spread in Scotland, and to see food banks spreading like a wildfire,despite what they really make out of us.
      Again a shameful result of Westminster rule.

      * I know there is much more, feel free if you want to add your own reasons*

    240. Tom B says:

      Cuilean: No he didn’t he’s quoting an earlier comment I made.

      RevStu: The facts speak differently, I have commented here many times, the first comment today at 2:32am displayed immediately, negating your convoluted explanation. The second comment responding to Liz g and yesindyref2, made at 3:58am did not appear, and still had not appeared (it has now) by the time I reposted more or less the same comment at 8:27am. Random glitch explanations have little credibility either.

      I think we can just about summarise the other various responses from DerekM and others with one phrase, ‘Kill the unbeliever’, convincingly demonstrating one of the points I was making.

    241. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tom B
      I’m not suggesting your anaylisi is wonky but perhaps your vision is constrained through lack of apparent alternative options.

      Just about all of the world now functions under a form of neo-liberalism. That’s globalisation for you and it will crush Scotland if it does not take control of it’s own future. The EU club might have some dodgy rules and some of the members are offensive, frankly. Those are our neighbours and trading partners though, so I think it would be a good idea to keep in their company before we think about alternative alternatives. Anyway, it’s not as if EU membership is forever, if a nation does not wish it to be so. 🙂

      Here’s a wee story from my young adulthood as a stranger in Stoke Newington, London. I was set up by some ‘mates’ who spiked me with smack and directed me to the nearest mini-cab office. On leaving the office after being told the next cab would be an hour, a ‘taxi’ pulled up in front of me, with the driver opening the door and inviting me in.

      I won’t go in to the details but I managed to straighten up instantly as the ‘taxi’ driver started chasing me on foot, shouting “I’m going to get you you wanker”, and I must have covered 100m in 11 seconds. On seeing he had no chance of caching me, the ‘taxi’ driver chased me around Stokey for the next hour or so. Scared, me?

      It’s not a good idea to be left out on your own in an environment you are unfamiliar with. Small steps cover the same ground as large stride, given time. Independence first.

    242. David p says:

      Dear sunniva

      Humza yousaf, John mason (and me) also Hutchesons’ Grammar, rugby, etc. but definitely not known as unionists!

      However I accept your underlying assumption that, at this time, privately educated Scots are more likely to be unionist.

    243. K1 says:

      You commented as Tom B, then Tom M…two different monikers…the rules as explained applied to both these two ‘new’ posters.

      Seriously get a fucking grip of your hysteria man.

    244. Tam Jardine says:

      Tom B

      I’m not sure if you consider me one of the gatekeepers or resident experts or whatever: I can assure you I am neither. It is a forum and there are a wide range of views. Describing this place as a circle-jerk and claiming censorship in angry posts just gets everyone’s back up. That is all.

      You are anti-EU and I am pro-EU and that is ok. I respect your viewpoint. Rather than rant and rave give us your thoughts on the direction we should take and you will get a fair hearing.

      No-one likes being told they are stupid for holding their views- it doesn’t work on No voters, leave voters, yes voters or remain voters. Tell us what you think we should do in the critical months to come.

      As for censorship on here I think you overestimate Stu’s dedication as cybernat general. Some devices seem to have problems posting and others seem to have no problems at all. I recommend select all text and copy before you submit to avoid losing comments.

    245. Fred says:

      Is that no a song, “The Shit Tom B?”

    246. K1 says:

      *awaits comment and apology tae Stu from Tom ‘B’ or ‘M’ wi a big riddy realising ‘his’ accusations re ‘censorship’ are completely ill founded and his continued outraged ‘Ah’m no fawin’ fur yer reasonable explanations aboot Askimet (automatic filter that holds back new ‘commenters’ comments until manually released), cause ah awready ‘know’ that yer fobbin’ me aff wi yer lies ‘ schtick, just makes him look like a stupid big fool wi’oot an ounce o’ common sense…thereby automatically relegating what he ‘has’ actually said to nothing more than the rambling incoherent paranoia of a certified fantasist*

      tap tap tap…affy quiet Tom B/M…tap tap tap

    247. kevin says:

      If Scotland can be cut adrift like that, could we not arrange for it to be towed somewhere a bit sunnier?

    248. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tom B

      Nothing originating in the EU parliament is legislative. You’re simply being disingenous.

      I’m afraid your impudence is only exceeded by your ignorance.

      Try reading this: https://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/

      Wings discreditably indulges in censorship

      So I see.

    249. yesindyref2 says:

      @Tom B
      Let’s look at what you siad in your post at 2.32 a.m. today:

      EU Parliament voted today to curb free-speech and media scrutiny of its activities, proscribing individual broadcasters, lumps RT in with terrorist US-Proxy Al-Quada/ISIS. They want to blacklist, discredit and silence personages, journalists, politicians, commentators who’ve appeared on programs like Sputnik ///

      Now let’s look at what the actual (non-legislative – i.e. it does NOT become law) resolution says:

      1. Underlines that …
      2. Calls on …
      3. Notes that …
      4. Stresses that …
      5. Notes the …
      6. Recognises that …
      7. Notes with regret that …
      8. Recognises that …
      9. Recalls that …
      10. Points out that …
      11. Argues that …
      12. Expresses its strong criticism …
      13. Is seriously concerned by …
      14. Stresses that …
      15. Invites the Member States …
      16. Is aware of …
      17. Notes that …
      18. Emphasises that …
      19. Calls on the Member States to work on …
      20. Calls on the EU and its Member States to take consistent, EU-wide action against the hate speech …
      21. Underlines the importance …
      22. Underlines that …
      23. Stresses that unbiased …
      24. Welcomes the Action Plan on Strategic Communication …
      25. Requests that the competent EU institutions and authorities closely monitor …
      26. Emphasises that more funding is necessary to support freedom of the media … [1]
      27. Notes the …
      28. Stresses that …
      29. Underlines the need to strengthen media plurality and the objectivity, impartiality and independence of the media within the EU and its neighbourhood, including non-state actors, inter alia through support for journalists and the development of capacity-building programmes for media actors, fostering information-exchange partnerships and networks, such as content-sharing platforms, media-related research, mobility and training
      opportunities for journalists and placements with EU-based media to facilitate exchanges of best practices; [1]
      30. Highlights the important role of quality journalism education and training inside and outside the EU in order to produce quality journalistic analyses and high editorial standards; argues that promoting the EU values of freedom of the press and expression and media plurality includes supporting persecuted and imprisoned journalists and human rights defenders in third countries;
      31. Advocates stronger cooperation …
      32. Is dismayed at the major problems relating to the independence and freedom of the media in certain Member States …
      33. Asks the Strategic Communication Task Force, thus reinforced as proposed and under the Twitter username @EUvsDisInfo, to establish an online space where the public at large can find a range of tools for identifying disinformation, with an explanation of how they work …
      34. Affirms that …
      35. Underlines that incitement of hatred …
      36. Highlights the …
      37. Underlines the …
      38. Calls on …
      39. Insists on the difference between propaganda and criticism;
      40. Stresses that …
      41. Stresses that …
      42. Welcomes the …
      43. Notes that …
      44. Believes that …
      45. Calls on the Commission to advance certain legal initiatives in order to be more effective and accountable in dealing with disinformation and propaganda and …
      46. Underlines the importance of awareness raising …
      47. Expresses concern at the use of social media and online platforms for criminal hate speech and incitement to violence …
      48. Calls on …
      49. Notes that …
      50. Notes that …
      51. Believes that …
      52. Underlines that …
      53. Highlights the …
      54. Points to …
      55. Stresses its support for …
      56. Condemns the …
      57. Supports …
      58. Calls on …
      59. Instructs its President to forward this resolution to the Council, the Commission, Member States, the Vice-President of the Commission/High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, the EEAS and NATO.”

      http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+TA+P8-TA-2016-0441+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN

      Now then, which part of that, exactly, matches your posting, or indeed, do you have a problem with?

      [1] Perhaps Wings Over Scotland should apply for EU Funding …

    250. yesindyref2 says:

      I asid:

      [1] Perhaps Wings Over Scotland should apply for EU Funding …

      That’s actually serious, same for the other Indy blogs. There is a surprising amount of like for like funding available from the EU, just that the UK isn’t good at getting it. I was luckily approached by a French EU guy in Edinburgh and my little business got some university research funding some years ago, and before that I knew someone who specialised in applications, and did consider it for a project. In retrospect I probably should have gone for it.

      I’d say Alyn Smith might be able to help out if asked.

    251. K1 says:

      Well countered yesindyref2…

      __________________________________

      *still waiting Tom B/M….*

    252. Colin Hunter says:

      I rather like the second one, seems to me it’s the way England is heading after Brexit!



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