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Wings Over Scotland


The myth of the borders

Posted on December 28, 2013 by

As the No camp and Scottish media cycle diligently through their three favourite scare stories (EU membership-currency-border posts, round and round and over and over), they regularly alight on the one that has the most bearing on normal people’s lives.

bluff1

That is, that because the current Scottish Government proposes to undertake differing immigration policies to those of the UK after independence, Scotland would “pose an open-border threat” to the rest of the UK, and that therefore you’d need to go through border checks to visit your grandpa in Penrith.

Clearly we haven’t debunked that one in sufficient depth yet, so let’s go.

(Readers could be mistaken for thinking otherwise, given our look at how two countries can have borders right through their towns, or even buildings; our gallery of other open borders across Europe; our analysis of how the existing Common Travel Area and geography of the UK meant border posts were nonsensical; our examinations of how passports will be affected and the ramifications for cross-border trade, travel and business; and finally how the Schengen system operates and the reasons we would be unlikely to join. But Project Fear is deathless and tireless, and so must we be.)

The latest incarnation of Scare Story #3 comes from the Secretary of State for Portsmouth, Alistair Carmichael, who warned recently that the rUK would be forced to place guards at the border in the event of a Yes vote.

“It is just not possible, it won’t work. At the moment [the system] works very well. We are one country with a single labour market and a single immigration policy. If you draw a line on a map and you have one immigration policy on one [side] and a different immigration policy on the other then inevitably one side or the other is going to want to protect the integrity of their systems.” 

“That is the real danger… that one side or the other will want to protect whichever is the stricter of the two policies. And you do that by putting in place border controls, whatever shape or form that takes.”

Carmichael then went on to cite the example of the Republic of Ireland (ROI), which shares the Common Travel Area (CTA) with the UK and is not part of the Schengen zone, and claimed that in order to remain in the CTA, the ROI had a broadly similar immigration system to the UK.

But is that either true or relevant? To find out, first we need to ask another question: what’s the actual purpose of border controls? There are basically six aspects:

  • check who’s coming into the country
  • check what they’re coming for
  • see that they’re not abusing the system
  • prevent non-desirables entering
  • check who’s leaving the country (eg wanted criminals)
  • apply duties on trade

The UK and Republic of Ireland work together in the Common Travel Area (CTA) to achieve these goals. Within the CTA, the UK and ROI have agreements on what checks are in place to ensure that the wrong people don’t get through, but the CTA makes no stipulations on how many visas each country issues or for what purpose.

The ROI has its own immigration protocols, including work permits (where a person can stay and work in a designated job subject to a job offer, provided the employer can prove they were unable to recruit locally); ‘Green Cards’ (where a person can stay for 2 years and even bring their immediate family over to stay with them – this would typically cover higher-skill or skill-shortage jobs); student visas; graduate visas (where graduates are given between six months and a year to remain in the ROI and find a job under the Green Card system); and other visa types for business and tourism.

The point of the CTA is that for an island nation it’s easier and cheaper to police the various points of entry into the UK and ROI (airports, ferry terminals etc) than it is to try to police a large land border. The purpose is NOT to create a unified immigration policy across the CTA members, but rather a unified screening process.

To listen to Alistair Carmichael, you’d be forgiven for thinking that the UK was pushing for a giant wall around Northern Ireland with barbed wire and watchtowers in order to “protect the stricter of the two policies”. Yet we hear no calls for the erection of such a “Shamrock Curtain”, despite the Irish border having been crossed for decades by people with intent far more malicious than claiming housing benefit.

lunarhouse

To highlight just how different the ROI and UK immigration systems are, let’s take a comparative look at their respective visa requirements for certain countries. We’re going to use Bolivia, Fiji, Lesotho, Malawi, South Africa, Taiwan and Venezuela as our examples, for reasons which will shortly become clear.

You don’t need a visa to land in Ireland if you’re a citizen of one of the EEA member states (the 28 EU countries plus Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein), or if your country is on this list. Keen-eyed readers will have noticed that ALL of the countries referred to above are on the list for entry to the ROI without the need for a visa.

At the same time, this list shows the countries whose citizens ARE required to obtain a visa before entering the UK. Again, alert viewers may notice that ALL of the countries referred to above are on the list. This means that there are seven countries which Ireland doesn’t require a visa to be issued for that the UK does.

Given the large and unpatrolled border between the ROI and the UK, clearly this is an “open border threat”. So if Carmichael, Alistair Darling, Margaret Curran et al are right, then it must be impossible to walk down the streets of Edinburgh or Dundee without being accosted by hordes of Bolivian pan-pipe bands or Malawian folk groups.

panpipes

No, we haven’t noticed them either. Instead, yet again, what we see is that the No camp’s arguments for why we must either remain in the Union or turn into Cold War-era East Germany have gaping, whole-country-sized holes in them.

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    Scotlands Date With Destiny ¦ 18/09/2014 ¦ The immigration falsehood

160 to “The myth of the borders”

  1. Macart says:

    Common sense.
     
    Ye cannae beat it. 🙂

  2. Juteman says:

    Sometimes I wonder if the British State are trying to wind Yes folk up enough to provoke a violent response.
    Sorry, we’ll have to postpone the referendum and close Holyrood (Stormont?) as a matter of public safety.

  3. gordoz says:

    The great Carbuncle has yet to make sense on any given subject, now there is a puddin’.
     
    If anyone still has fears about this border issue after the above piece, then they must have serious fact based information absorption issues or be a straightforward No Scotland voter and  xenophobe as the great Carbuncle obviously is, in his eagerness to peddle this crap and appear to make Scots European outsiders.

  4. Jimsie says:

    @ Juteman As the referendum debate hots up and turns nastier you can be certain that the scare stories will get worse and will include invented tartan terrorists. The British state are capable of any dirty deeds as shown by their involvement in extraordinary rendition.

  5. The Man in the Jar says:

    I haven’t been in the Toon for a while but Buchanan St. Sunday afternoons ye cany move for Bolivian pan-pipe bands.
     
    I think the same guys play in other towns around Scotland as well. Just sayin like 😉

  6. Ericmac says:

    Westminster, Darling and Better Together don’t have to justify the absence of Bolivian Pipe bands..  They only have to repeat the propaganda is such a way as to net the majority of the populace.  

    They care little for the minority fish that escape their drag net of lies and obfuscation.  It is a numbers game.

  7. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Carmichael and other chancers better we aware that you can run but you cannot hide. I say that in reference to their political futures. Can’t see anyone in England voting for that arsehole. 

  8. Geoff Huijer says:

    My God Rev you must have the patience of a Saint!
     
    I can’t believe BT just keep peddling the same old
    shite over and over. Problem is some people take it
    all in. A pal’s dad was on about childcare and how the
    Scottish Gov’t could implement it now; didn’t seem to
    understand that without tax revenues going to the SG
    they actually couldn’t.

  9. Jimsie says:

    @ The Man in the Jar Wearing ponchos doesn”t make them Bolivian. I can knock out Guantanamera on the moothie and I”ve never been near Cuba.

  10. Les Wilson says:

    Jimsie
    They did just that, in the run up to the last referendum in the 70s, the police were up to their necks in it. We can indeed expect things like this, as they ARE desperate.

    Forget the respect agenda, there will be none, just every dirty trick they can think up. However, with the Internet and sites like this one we are much better equipped, this time to  debunk them as they come in. So this time they will have to be much sneakier, expect it.

  11. Brian Powell says:

    The continuing revelations from Snowdon on the very active collusion between GCHQ and the NSA shows a British establishment well versed, and comfortable, with lies on a massive scale.

    As they didn’t suddenly do this it shows that both Labour and Coalition Governments were deeply involved with disregard for friends and independent sovereign nations across the world.
     
    Now the Gibson report into illegal rendition and torture is being sidelined, the Chilcott report into the Iraq war, is being conveniently blocked by the US,
     
    Is anyone surprised then, that all the existing sections of that establishment, Conservatives, Labour and LibDems would tell any lie, use any form of misinformation, to keep that maintain their British state power base?
     
    Hence repeat, repeat, repeat of the stories,

  12. Jimsie says:

    Les Wilson  Agreed Les, this time around with Wings, Bella and Newsnet it should be different as all their claims will be closely scrutinised,

  13. Andy-B says:

    Well done Scott for  dispelling the BT myth of border control, if it went unchallenged, the likes of razor wire and attack dogs guarding the border, would be mentioned in the next breath, by the BT myth department.
     
    Apparently the BT Myth Department, is twice the size of the American NSA.

  14. Juteman says:

    I won’t be surprised if Indy sites are shut down next year.
    Whatever it takes.

  15. JLT says:

    This is practically the worst scare story in the arsenal of the ‘BT’, UK Government, or anybody who is opposed to ‘Yes’.

    It is so blindingly stupid …that you seriously have to wonder about the level of intelligence from those who should know better, and yet, continue to foam at the mouth as they unleash this drivel on the Scottish people.
     
    Nowhere! …nowhere!  …in Western Europe is there a wall …or a border post …or a moat that splits countries apart. The closest you will find, will probably be on Cyprus, where the Turks and Greeks eye each other warily …and even then …it’s practically a no man’s land that lies between them!
     
    Personally …I hope they keep trotting this one out on a regular basis. It gives weight to the ‘Yes’ campaign, in the sense that those who stand as the bastions of keeping the Union are well and truly perceived to be slavering idiots!
     
    If ‘Yes’ should come to pass, and we win, then believe me, I will sit very eagerly and wait for the rUK to build their border posts. Either way …England will look mighty foolish in the world’s eyes by building border posts at the Scottish border against what everyone knows, is England best friend in the world (and seriously, they don’t have many friends in the world these days, so they can’t be choosy…), or we have great fun in winding the likes of Darling, Carmichael, Moore, Cameron, Farage or whoever else by asking them post-independence when the rUK will intend to build these ‘promised’ posts…
     
    Enough said!

  16. Juteman says:

    Is the HQ of the border agency really called ‘Lunar House? 🙂

  17. Thepnr says:

    The UK government have only this week started their attack on the CTA between the ROI and UK.
     
    The reason is obviously to undermine the Yes side on the referendum since it doesn’t appear to have been an issue from ROI gaining Independence in 1922 until now.
    http://archive.is/QpWKO

  18. Marian says:

    Project Fear must be getting pretty hacked off with WoS exposing their lies and so it must be just a matter of time before they try and take WoS down one way or another.

    Was talking to some long standing SNP activists with good connections today and they confirmed that the SNP leadership do think that the UK security services are actively involved in working against the YES campaign and that the leadership are also concerned that UK government arranged “incidents”would occur and be blamed on independence supporters as we get closer to referendum day.

  19. Murray McCallum says:

    Those Bolivian pan-pipe bands look pretty threatening. The Daily Mosley will no doubt start a border watch for these heavily camouflaged, nationalist minstrels.
     
    The British Nationalist’s constant reference to borders and foreigners is worrying. It maybe goes towards part explaining the UK’s diminishing roll in Europe and the World. A failing confidence perhaps?

  20. Juteman says:

    I seriously hope that certain individuals, in the media and politics, are the subject of documentariess for future generations to learn about.
    Maybe they hope they will be sung about 200 years from now, as a USB stick of rogues in a nation.

  21. Jimsie says:

    @Juteman A USB stick of rogues in a nation. Liked that one. Good quotation for Burns night.

  22. Vambomarbeleye says:

    F**kin hate it when I fly into Glasgow to be greeted with a big F**off UK BORDER sign. Can’t wait till it’s replaced with wellcome to Scotland.

  23. Murray McCallum says:

    Is the HQ of the border agency really called ‘Lunar House?
     
    Indeed it is. I lived in Croydon in the 1980s – my first ever job was there. I found out our phone number had 1 digit different from Lunar House when someone gave us an old answering machine. Came home to find it filled with Visa applicants. Despite having Glasgow police pipe band as our answering machine melody and a statement that “this is not the home office” we had to get our number changed.
     
    By the way, based on our answering machine, most of the people looking to live / work in the UK were from the British Commonwealth. So obviously no problem there then.

  24. ronnie anderson says:

    Rev,S Minto, great piece as per, but ah canna be arsed, running arooooon the Mulberry Bush , hic, ah wuld rether drink the Mulbeery Fermented fruits , hic, hic,wannnnnt  sssssssshooooooommmeeeeeee

  25. Smudger says:

    Alastair Carmichael is a buffoon, there will be no difference to us crossing borders in Britain after a yes vote as there is now.
     

  26. Graeme McCormick says:

    I rather think that if the rUK erect border posts it might have a problem where to site them as I suspect most folk north of Cheshire will want to be to the North side of the Border.

  27. Paula Rose says:

    These proposed border posts – are they to stop the serfs escaping England?

  28. kininvie says:

    Scott – many thanks. I was just bracing myself to write exactly that article, and now you have saved me the trouble (and written it better than I would have done) 🙂
     
    I can’t speak for Glasgow airport, but the Edinburgh border agency people are pretty friendly and welcoming, compared to the frankly threatening experience of flying into London from parts foreign. I sometimes ask the immigration officers if they are looking forward to manning watchtowers at Carter Bar – they look completely blank, but it cheers up my day.
     
    Mind you, arriving on the Eurostar is worse, if anything, as there is always a bunch of goons hanging around with nothing obvious to do apart from stare suspiciously at passengers. I’m much too feart to indulge in banter with them…

  29. JLT says:

    Paula Rose says:
    These proposed border posts – are they to stop the serfs escaping England?
     
    As Scot says, the imagery that I get from these ‘border posts’ and the veiled threats involving them are reminiscent of the old Soviet Union and their grip of the Eastern Bloc. I have this one comical vision of us being grudgingly allowed into England, and any rUK citizens being met by the Guards with raised and questioned eyebrows as they try to cross into Scotland (as in  …’why are you going there?!?!’)
     
    But seriously, it is never going to happen! No rUK government is going to lay down a single slab, let alone, a mass of border posts right across the border, without incurring the fury and derision of the rest of the Free World, the humiliation as well as the laughter that would come from the EU, the Scots sticking two fingers up at the rUK, as well as the English people themselves.

    The English people would be appalled and ashamed to be seen as the only country in the Western World with a border post, reminiscent of the Soviet Union.

    No rUK government will ever hammer in a single wooden post, out of absolute fear of being slaughtered at the next rUK general election. It is …just …never …going …to …happen!

  30. Paul says:

    When I served in N Ireland my Battalion was what was called spearhead so we were sent all over the Province and in a town called Jonesburgh the border between Ulster and Eire went straight through a farmers barn and he told me that he would get grants from the E.U. For Eire he would then take his herd to the other side of the barn and get E.U. grants for the U.K. for the same herd.  So all this border post nonsense is exactly that. If there are no border controls between Ulster and Eire how would there be one between Scotland and R/UK. The same would surely apply

  31. creigs1707repeal says:

    @ JLT
     
    It is so blindingly stupid …that you seriously have to wonder about the level of intelligence from those who should know better, and yet, continue to foam at the mouth as they unleash this drivel on the Scottish people.”
     
    They DO know it’s drivel. But the point is, if they say it often enough people who do not care to check things out for themselves will accept it as fact even though a few seconds on the internet would tell anyone the blatant lie it is. Project Feart don’t care about telling and spreading lies and doing so time and time again. They have the complicit MSM & BBC backing their lies. So the masses are basically being fed propoganda and they don’t even know it. Auntie Beeb is beyond reproach, is she not? Well, that’s the view of many in Scotland. They just don’t know they’re being lied to–and probably won’t until it is too late.

  32. Paula Rose says:

    @ JLT – More like Korea except the North is civilised and the South has a tiny elite oppressing the majority!

  33. Brian Mark says:

    I ask myself what ever happened to the Internationalist Labour Party, countries without frontiers etc?

  34. kininvie says:

    It seems to me there’s a truly bizarre sense of isolation and fear creeping in down South. Europe’s a threat; immigrants are a threat; the Scottish referendum’s a threat. And now they are facing a cricket whitewash to boot….
     
    There was an up front guy from the European court of Human Rights on the radio this morning. Asked what his message to Theresa May was, he just said ‘comply with international law’. But this is precisely what the UK government is terrified of, and instead they see themselves being surrounded by ‘foreigners’ with hostile agendas. And we, in their eyes, are committing the ultimate betrayal by preferring to join those foreigners…
     
    There would have been an absolutely clear win for Better Together if they had run a positive campaign, endorsing our freedom of choice but promising help, hope and friendship if we voted Yes, while still asking us to stick with the UK. As it is, they are driving people away from No, because they are offering nothing but threats.
     
    I can only conclude that therapy – on a large scale – is needed

  35. JLT says:

    Creigs1707repeal
    But the point is, if they say it often enough people who do not care to check things out for themselves will accept it as fact
     
    Sorry Creig1707repeal, I disagree. If someone came up to you, and said that the rUK would build border posts post-independence, then to begin with, you would chuckle, then you would sit the person down and explain it to them properly.

    This is absolutely the weakest argument (if it is even an argument!) in BT’s locker. It is so easy to trash, that even a school child could take it apart in seconds!
     
    I really hope that BT continue with this one. It is stupid, and it shows BT themselves to be stupid. By continually trying to tell this huge porky to the people, all they do in the end, is insult the people, and once the people are enlightened, then they get annoyed.

    Scot’s don’t like to be made fools of, and we take great offence against those who try to make us look foolish. So far, Darling and Carmichael have done that, and to their chagrin, have angered at least a million, if not two million Scots throughout the land.

    Westminster has also noticed this, and are furious with Darling and Carmichael, hence the public spanking of the two of them recently
    …and yet …the same junk stories keep getting used, and so, in doing so, more and more Scots are becoming very, very aware of the lies, and of the real truth that we keep telling them, when countering these lies. If we can blow away the most stupid of lies so easily, then those who are DK’s or No’ers, begin to wonder what else we Yes’sers are right about…

  36. Les Wilson says:

    You may think this paranoia, but I suspect MI5 ( or 6?) may pay for an undercover operative on all trains to and from Scotland, same with Airports/ cruise ships etc.

    Why would I think this? because I have seen state paranoia at work when on a cruise ship that docked in Israel, where stern faced men in dark casual jackets who were minutely checking all the passengers for any sign of suspiciousness they were with us the whole trip disappearing once out of Israeli waters.These people were tourists, like myself who were just visiting, and going daytrips to Jerusalem/ Bethlehem, wailing wall etc.

    I do  understand their concerns and you may think that “oh well, that was Israel” and “this is the UK ” (or rUK ) However this most certainly stemmed from a scared state, who were ready to pounce on anything or anyone that did not sit easy with them.

    State paranoia is a definite possibility if the Union loses to a YES vote, so we need to recognise there is no depth to which a state will go to take on a perceived threat, even if it is a totally stupid and non existent one.

  37. David MacGille-Mhuire says:

    In the event of Jock separation, will Bungo Carmichael need a passport to drag his bahookie from Portsmouth to Plymouth? Will there be border controls with mutually armed checks? Will Russia occupy rump English waters and Mars? Will Cammers and Ozzie come out of their libertarian closet, and my pet Cockatiel shag my Budgie?
    My money’s on Partick Thistle to win the World Cup; Kirkintilloch Rob Roy to romp the English Premier League; Inverness Caley Thistle to do the Double – gubbing the Kiwis, Springboks, and  Ozzies at the Tiddlywinks Budgie Smuggler Cup and sashay through the Shinty Cross Dressing Far East (Asian) Open Invitation at Conkers.
    Upon reflection, I’ll be moving by birds to a tightly border controlled Extra Galactica for fear of Cameron and Osbourne’s affectionately libertarian advances, and Bungo’s amorous – if misplaced – arse.

  38. Betsy says:

    The churn of scare stories is getting rather predictable. I suspect if the polls keep moving towards yes we’ll be in for some real belters – wild eyed Shetland terrorists menacing the land demanding a return to Westminster rule, al queda nicking trident and invasion by North Korea. At least that’ll have the virtue of being funnier than the current fare.  

  39. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    jimsie at 3.00
    Exactly
    When will the first tartan terrorist be spotted?
    We could start a countdown with 1st January as day one. My bet would be before day 100.
     
    In the meantime look out for them being nice to us. That’s a very well used tactic

  40. @Juteman

    I won’t be surprised if Indy sites are shut down next year.
    Whatever it takes.
     
    This is a threat that I think is very real. I trust that Wings, Newsnet, Bella et al have  robust backup and restore procedures in place.

  41. Better Together St Kilda says:

    We were somewhat surprised to be shut down (twice) this year!

  42. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    Sorry, I have to disagree here. I have pictures of the Pan Pipe group “Awatinas” in Edinburgh one year when I was there, so bang goes your flippant theory…

  43. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @ Peter
     
    Clear evidence of the need for a Shamrock Curtain! 🙂

  44. dadsarmy says:

    I think Juteman makes a good point, that some / a lot of the Better Together stuff is designed to create a reaction; perhaps anti-English, perhaps anti-EU, whatever.
     
    It’s keep the heid for another 9 months, and we’re home and dry.

  45. Patrick Roden says:

    I don’t know about BT’s ‘Project Fear’
     
    But bleeding hell, the Wings comments section ‘project fear’ is still going strong!
     
    Wer doomed I tells ye..DOOOOOMMED 🙁

  46. Patrick Roden says:

    Just wait ’till BIG BAD ENGLAAAAND… comes up with some nasty tricks and kicks poor little Scotland’s erse good a proper, for daring to challenge their supremacy!
     
    Just listen to yourselves guys FFS.

  47. Dan Huil says:

    I remember watching a TV play back in the seventies – pre-’79 referendum – where Scottish nationalists,in the form of some kind of civil army,were shown losing their fight,along with any sympathetic backing from the Scottish public,when “proof” was published showing the nationalists were being supplied with arms from the USSR.

    A kind of Zinoviev letter.

    I won’t be surprised if the British nationalist media – not the people of “Englaaaand” – contemplate something similar in the near future.

  48. CameronB says:

    As Scot says, the imagery that I get from these ‘border posts’ and the veiled threats involving them are reminiscent of the old Soviet Union and their grip of the Eastern Bloc.
     
    No surprise there as the UK and the Soviet Union were/are both Unitary states, not nation states or countries. Totally agree with previous comments that rUK would most probably be viewed as both a laughingstock and as a pariah state.
     
    As its party season I hope you won’t mind me dedicating a song for Better Together? (Warning – a bit loud and crunchy).
     
    P.S. They’re French, so obviously hostile foreigners.
    Sonic Chicken 4 – Only Lose

  49. John says:

    Can anyone answer this for me. 

    How much power will the church have in an independent Scotland? I am against any church influence in politics. There are a couple of friends of mine who are voting no citing the increased influence of the church of Scotland as one of their main reasons..

    I’m voting yes but would like help with this to put my friend in the right.

  50. ewen says:

    Aye, cameronb but when the Baltic states got independence, soviet omon troops attacked Lithuanian border posts. Unarmed border guards shot in the back of the head.
    If ruk leave the EU and we are in the EU, then we will become an EU border and the EU borders are well guarded. Such a shame that we’ll  have to check for undesirables trying to get into the EU from ruk.

  51. @ Patrick Roden 
     
    So you don’t think cyber warfare will play any part in the NO campaign?
     
    Forgotten the e-mail hacking already?

  52. Barontorc says:

    Is Bungo Carmichael for real? Will he get voted in again at the next Westminster election to try and slaughter his own people day and daily? The SNP should put up its strongest candidates against him and Goofy Alexander our very own ‘Scot’ Treasury man, to get rid of the pair of them, swine that they are.

  53. Hamish Burgess says:

    I can almost admire their Janus-headed look both ways attitude. Scottish open borders will allow non-Brits to flood into England unchecked, but Scottish independence somehow means people won’t be able to travel between England and Scotland after independence because of the border.

    I suppose we’ll place guards from England (who can’t speak foreign languages) on the border. Anybody they can’t understand will be waved through. That will be any European, Asian etc. Aberdonians and folk from Govan should be OK!

    Ha Ha!

  54. CameronB says:

    @ ewen
    I think it highly unlikely that the British state would employ such direct force. Instead, Better Together and the MSM are doing their best to turn people off the issue and fill the debate with misinformation. There are also plenty of ‘hidden’ ways to subvert democracy and the rule of law. That’s if you buy in to all this Snowdon/GCHQ/NSA guff. 😉

  55. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “How much power will the church have in an independent Scotland?”

    Exactly the same amount it does now. Why on Earth would it have any more?

  56. Les Wilson says:

    I often wonder what Carmichael’s constituents think of him, but have never seen any comments ?

  57. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Readers! I’m having an incredibly irritating evening wrestling with Windows 8, and as a result I’m THIS close to closing comments down altogether, because if people don’t start formatting them properly I’m going to have some sort of fucking seizure.

    I’ll say it really slowly.

    HIT. THE. RETURN. KEY. TWICE. AFTER. A. PARAGRAPH.

    NOT ONCE.

    NOT THREE TIMES.

    NOT FUCKING SEVENTEEN TIMES.

    It’s not complicated. Twice or none.

    I’m just about done saying it now. I cannot afford to spend half my time on this site fixing bloody unreadable formatting because people WON’T LISTEN and just spew words onto the page like a dog with the runs. You’ve got until 2014 to sort it out and then I’m going to be a real dick about it.

  58. Thepnr says:

    “How much power will the church have in an independent Scotland?”
     
    I would think the church will have less power in an Independent Scotland particularly since the House of Lords will no longer have influence in Scotland so that’s 26 less unelected Bishops voting on matters that affect Scots.

  59. John says:

    @Rev, I don’t know why it would have anymore, but my friend seems to think it will. 
    Just thought i’d ask the question as i am sure there is someone on here who could give me a little ammo against him.
    Anyway, keep up the good work.

  60. Thepnr says:

    Rev to help solve your Windows 8 problems, might like to trial “Start 8” works for me. Windows 8 is a mess.

  61. scottish_skier says:

    “How much power will the church have in an independent Scotland?”
    Exactly the same amount it does now.
     
    Which is none. At least no more so than any other organisation putting their oar in / lobbying as best they can.
     
    Westminster on the other hand has the Church of England as the official religion with unelected bishops sitting in the House of Lords and the head of the Church (Queen) as head of state. Lizzie of course ain’t the head of the Church of Scotland (that’s the moderator who has no political position) . The catholic church likewise has no political role, nor do e.g. the Rastafarians, Buddhists, Jedi knights (pity)… meaning to all extents and purposes, Holyrood is completely secular. 

  62. Frazer Allan Whyte says:

    Barontorc: I think I speak for upstanding swine everywhere: we resent being lumped into the same herd as those reprobates.
     
    Hit twice – Let’s be realistic – some border controls will be necessary to keep out Morris dancers and Farage-like objects.

  63. Erchie says:

    Nice to see a pic of the Rev’s old uncle Patrick up there with Robert Robinson and Frank Muir

  64. TJenny says:

    Rev – I’ve noticed that nearly all the recent comments are now showing without a space between the last line of comment text and the date and time stamp, which makes all the comments look crammed together. 
     
    You didn’t used to have to enter 2 spaces at the end of your text before submitting a comment.  Is this a deliberate new format from you or a vagary of  Windows 8 – or just my pc?  (Haven’t put any spaces after this, so we’l see how it comes out).

  65. Ivan McKee says:

    @ John re-churches.
     
    Total agree with Scottish skier and others comments.
     
    As further ammo quote Question 590 in the White paper Q&A.
    “We propose no change to the legal status of any religion or of Scotland’s churches”

  66. Macart says:

    dadsarmy is right on the money. Keep the heid for the next nine months and we’re home free…
     
    …literally.
     
    Leave paranoia and fear of the next door neighbour to BT and Westminster. As for getting angry about the EU or anything else? Horseshit with nobs on, irrelevant distractions. If we have differences about these things, well who gives a monkey’s, they’re no deal breakers. We’re voting on where we want these issues decided not these these issues themselves.
     
    Nine months and counting. 🙂

  67. Albert Herring says:

    “Just thought i’d ask the question as i am sure there is someone on here who could give me a little ammo against him.”
     
    Have a look at http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-dirty-game/

  68. dadsarmy says:

    @John
    http://www.holyrood.com/2013/11/msps-vote-on-gay-marriage/
    “MSPs endorse gay marriage
    Stage one of same-sex marriage bill passed”
     
    Despite opposition from the Catholic Church and Church of Scotland.

  69. DougtheDug says:

    “Readers! I’m having an incredibly irritating evening wrestling with Windows 8”
     
    Rev, it’s extremely easy. Put your mouse in the top right hand corner to get the charms and the button to access your tiles or put the mouse in the bottom left corner to switch between old-style and tile desktops. 
     
    Once in the tile desktop click the down arrow to access the numerous tile icons with your programs and system windows.
     
    How more intuitive do you want it?

  70. Mealer says:

    Carmichael is a haver.

  71. caz-m says:

    Wee bit O/T
    What we need is a good poll result round about February. It would give us that wee lift for going into spring time, when I think things will really start to hot up.

    The “Auld Acquaintance” website gives us another insight into how these polling companies work.

    https://auldacquaintance.wordpress.com/2013/12/02/going-up-the-poll/

    Don’t worry scottish_skier, you are still in a job, LOL.

  72. Thepnr says:

    “We’re voting on where we want these issues decided not these issues themselves.”
     
    Hits the nail on the head for me, Scotland after voting Yes for Independence will negotiate with the relevant parties all of the BT perceived “problems” to an acceptable conclusion.
     
    It ain’t rocket science and as a tactic to bolster the No vote is rather funny if not downright pathetic.

    BT are holding a busted flush and bluffing against a full house.

  73. Can someone remind me what Hitler did in Poland to justify the invasion. I would expect nothing less next year.

  74. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Rev, it’s extremely easy.”

    You’re about a gnat’s nose-hair away from a lifetime ban, buddy.

  75. CameronB says:

    @ Rev. Stu
    Suck it in. 😉
    Respect for the effort and dedication.

  76. Paula Rose says:

    Poker analogy – BT seem to have convinced a lot of people they hold all the aces, everyone else isn’t playing poker.

  77. Papadocx says:

    In British India we had a class of people called “Anglo Indian” these were mixed race whom the British didn’t want (but used) and the Indians didn’t want, they really were nobodies child.

    So they were allowed to inhabit a space between the English and the higher castes, and were allowed to think of themselves as better than indians but not as good as the English nobody really wanted them (but used them)

    We have self styled Anglo Scots who would like, and hope they are accepted by the English as equals. They want to be accepted by England but know they are looked down upon, and they know they are better than most Scots so they are in the same position as the Anglo Indians,  nobody wants them, so they will believe any crap so that their cover isn’t taken from them and are exposed as nonentities. they have to vote NO, or they will loose their imagined place in society. (Fur coat & nae knickers) 

  78. Paula Rose says:

    @ papadocx – I think you’re referring to the middle-classes.

  79. Macart says:

    @Thepnr
     
    Pretty fekkin stone age tactic from Westminster. Concentrate on division, the minutiae and dig till somebody breaks ranks. Not this time.
     
    The big prize is far more important than the teeny differences that divide us. Especially when the bullshit they’re spreading is so easily dissected. People need to remember these arses spread fear and uncertainty. They swim in it and they’re welcome to it. Not no more Lochaber. Not again.

  80. DougtheDug says:

    Don’t try and think your way through Windows 8 Rev.
     
    Install this:
    Options > Control Panel > Add Language > Scottish Gaelic > Download and install language pack
     
    And then forget the semantics and let the icons and intuition guide you.

  81. caz-m says:

    A trip down memory lane.

    An episode of “Call My Bluff” from the seventies.

  82. Marcia says:

    For the final time in 2013, Sunday Herald front page;
     
    http://twitpic.com/dqc5wb
     
     the paper includes;
     
    NHS taskforce to improve hospital out of hours care
     
    Police Scotland give Salmond his first personal security adviser
     
    21-pg Review of the Year featuring Falkirk, Grangemouth, austerity, Syria, O’Brien, Miley, Murray, Boston, bankers and much more
     
    Ukip biggest loser in Holyrood’s 2013 by-election battles

  83. Ruby Tuesday says:

    Hi Everyone   I hope you all had a great Chrimbo.  I haven’t posted for ages but always enjoy reading the articles and posts.   I felt I had to do something to help Rev Stu as he seems to be having problems with Windoze    I did install Windows 8 about six months ago but gave up after having breakdown and went back to W7 or whatever it was before W8.  I actually have a Mac with Windoze on Bootcamp partition so Windoze rage kept to minimum.  I though I would let you know about Lynda.com who offer a weeks free trial where you can learn all about Windoze 8. Here are the links:

    http://www.lynda.com/promo/trial/Default.aspx?lpk35=1833&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=ldc_affiliate&utm_content=655&utm_campaign=CD4063&bid=655&aid=CD4063&opt=

    http://www.lynda.com/Windows-tutorials/Windows-8-Essential-Training/84572-2.html

  84. Tearlach says:

    Back on topic folks – and with a strong focus on accurate formatting – I’m surprised that nobody has picked up on the differing immigration rules that already operate within different parts of a single country. Canada. The province of Quebec has its own rules and quota for immigration, and this differs from the rest of Canada, vis:-
     
    “Quebec Skilled Worker / Professional applicants intending to reside in Montreal or another city in the Province of Quebec are selected based upon a different set of criteria than applicants who wish to settle elsewhere in Canada.”
    http://tinyurl.com/5ub34p6
     
    Qubec immigration is of course based around the French language, but once someone is settled there, there is no obstacle to them moving to any other part of Canada, ie once in Qubec, you become a Canadian citizen:-
     
    “Applicants who are successful under the Quebec Immigration selection system are issued a Quebec Selection Certificate, followed by a Canadian Permanent Resident (Immigration) Visa.”
     
    So a single country can operate different immigration policies within its own geography, and allow everyone to be a citizen in the end.

  85. caz-m says:

    Not everyone will know this, so no shouting, for those who don’t know, you can upgrade Windows 8 to Windows 8.1 free of charge.

    I done this and my laptop is working fine.

  86. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Rev Stu
     
    You have my sincerest sympathy. I bought a new laptop back in August it had Windows 8. After one week I was prepared to pay £155.00 at the local computer shop to have it downgraded to Windows 7. Luckily a friend of a friend sorted it for much much less 😉 Turns out the friend of a friend is an old mate of the Rev. I am sure that Stu will get it sorted. But good luck anyway.
     
    Windows 8 The work of Satan himself!

  87. Proadge says:

    Yes, it’s nonsense about borders. But frankly if showing your passport is required when you go to England then so what? Seems like a very small price to pay to live in a normal grown-up country rather than a subjugated province.

  88. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Papadocx
    The book “Bowani Junction” is about those anglo-indians who were abandoned when Britian left India. They tended to be the result of British miltary or civil servant liasion with Indian women and they got modest positions in the British raj which did not endear them to other Indians. Those who could came to UK to a very mixed welcome. The mother of Harry Webb was one of them (Cliff Richard)

  89. Macart says:

    Windows 8 is pish with a capital ‘P’. Downgrade to seven until Microsoft does its usual and fixes the bugs via feedback. Anyone short of Jedi Master is going to have bother navigating the new architecture.
     
    Anyroads back to Crysis 3. Halfway through the pressie from the weans and really havin’ a blast wi’ the stealth bow and active cammo. 🙂

  90. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    TMIJ
    I  I bought a  Mac after trying to get my bydie’s Windows 8 to work. Totally illogical and non intuitive.

  91. Marcia says:

    If you haven’t already done so, download the update Windows 8.1 as there is a slight modification and helpful tile you can click on – which will be to the bottom left.

  92. Macart says:

    Hullo. What’s up with the awaiting moderation thingy?

  93. Thepnr says:

    Borders between Scotland and England? Big deal, better than Westminster policies stealing from the poor to give to the rich.

    From tomorrows Record:
     
    “In these days of benefit cuts and growing wealth gaps of Tory rule, it stood to reason that Ian Pattison would sharpen his nib with some wise words for Govan’s greatest sage.
    “It’s about Rab stealing from the rich to give to the poor,” said Gregor.
    “He becomes the Robbing Hood of Govan. It’s set against the food banks, the bedroom tax, all the other hellishness that’s part of our society now.”
     
    http://archive.is/O9UyH

  94. Paula Rose says:

    @ Macart – the Rev has a prob with window cleaning. I always use vinegar.

  95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Hullo. What’s up with the awaiting moderation thingy?”

    The word “Microsoft” is now filter-trapped to catch those atrocities when someone pastes from Word.

  96. Macart says:

    Gotcha Rev.
     
    Cheers.
     
    @Paula Rose
     
    Badumtish. 😀

  97. caz-m says:

    If your making comparisons with Britain and India, then you could also compare Better Together and the Westminster government with Vichy France and the Nazis.

    This was when French officials collaborated with the Nazi Party for their own personal gain.

    In the end they backed the wrong horse and most were executed for committing treason against the people of France.

    Sound familiar.

  98. caz-m says:

    Sky News put a Sunday Times front page headline up and it said,

    “Tories Fear Scots Will Break Away”.

    Tried getting a link, but failed. Can anyone get a Sunday Times link put up. Cheers.

  99. Paula Rose says:

    @ Macart – so you don’t like my humour?

  100. ewen says:

    @John Ferguson. A fall Gleiwitz? Maybe they’d engineer it just over the border?  It would go down in history as fail Berwick.

  101. Marcia says:

    caz-m
     
    A photo of the Sunday Times front page  – a bit small – click on the photo – text not very clear.
     
    https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/417046909103009792/photo/1

  102. Bill C says:

    @caz-m
    This is the ST link you are looking for:
    http://t.co/UgyyUnwtwF 
    I smell fear in the heart of the British Establishment

  103. Thepnr says:

    “Tories Fear Scots Will Break Away”
     
    Now we are getting closer to the truth!

  104. Papadocx says:

    This plan England has of penning us in behind deadly border area, machine guns, mines, drones etc. Sounds as if they want us in a concentration camp for ease of thinning out and possible eradication, in case we try to interfere in their liberation of all that nasty smelly oil that is such a burden to us daft jocks.
     
    They could use their best mates the Quizling jocks as their mercenary border gun men. With English officers of course. Generalissimo Carmichael and the bayonet Davidson would be the Brains of the outfit with magrit Curran as liaison officer. (nae brains required)
     
    job done! God save her majesty! 

  105. Thepnr says:

    @Papadocx

    You are one angry man but I respect that, just keep posting my friend.

  106. caz-m says:

    Marcia n Bill, re, “Tories fear Scots will break away”.

    Did you notice the sub-headline,

    “Wake Up England or Lose Union”

    No mention of Wales then. What will Carwyn Jones think of that sub-headline, “Wake up England”.

    And he thought he had a say in this referendum thingy.

    He was just another Labour Party mouthpiece getting used by the Tories.

  107. Derek says:

    < My money’s on Partick Thistle to win the World Cup >
     
    Now that’s something that I would actually pay money to see!

  108. Patrick Roden says:

    So you don’t think cyber warfare will play any part in the NO campaign?
     
    Forgotten the e-mail hacking already?”
     
    Do I think cyber warfare will play any part in the No campaign?  YES.
     
    Do I think lies and deceit will play any part in the NO campaign? Yes Already.
     
     Do I think Scots are too stupid to see through this?  NO.
     
    Do I think we are too wee to deal with this? NO.
     
    We are not, Too wee, too poor and too stupid……or are we?

  109. Thepnr says:

    Patrick
    ……or are we?

    I don’t think we are. I think we’re better than that.
     
    Whatever, we’ll know for sure in a few months. We can only do what we can. Get in there, and never doubt our strength!

  110. joe kane says:

    On the question of an independent Scotland being taken over and run by our own home-grown Caledonian mad mullahs.

    As Scottish Skier above says, the British state is organised around a theocratic monarchy, but what passes for liberal democracy in Britain is actually under real threat, not from religion, but from increasing privatisation of what public services are still owned and controlled by voters. With no public services or assets in public ownership then a modern liberal democracy is largely a hollowed-out empty affair. No surprises then that the largest untapped source of wind energy in the UK, the Westminster Parliament, favours divesting itself of all responsibility for running the affairs of British society and putting them in the hands of unelected shareholders and private owners. That’s when they aren’t selling off public assets to themselves and their pals at knock-down prices which is public corruption by another more accurate description.

    There’s a good visual representation by Another Angry Voice blogger in his annual 2013 review of the take-over of the criminal justice system by private unaccountable concerns entitled ‘Tory Justice’ here –
    http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/review-of-year-2013.html

  111. Macart says:

    @Paula Rose  – “so you don’t like my humour?”
     
    Couldn’t be more wrong. Had a good chuckle. 🙂

  112. john king says:

    Peter Mirtitch says
    “Sorry, I have to disagree here.”
     
    Same
    I saw them in Alloa couple of years ago at Christmas,
    I think theyre  mi5 🙂

  113. Robert Louis says:

    As others have already alluded to above, I fully expect the ‘british state’ to employ every single dirty trick in order to turn people against the restoration of Scottish independence.  Smears and bare faced lies, ALL fully regurgitated by the ever obliging and wholly biased, propagandist BBC, will come thick and fast, as London’s elite try to cling on to a country which they fully believe, in their arrogance, they OWN.
     
    In 1979 when the result of the devolution referendum was gerrymandered by a late rule change by the Labour party in Westminster, there was NO internet, NNS or Wings.  All people had was the blatantly biased BBC and London run ‘news’ papers for ‘facts’.  No wonder Westminster got away with it, despite a majority voting YES.
     
    In 2014, matters are somewhat different.  Lies by Westminster and Scottish unionists are shown for what they are within minutes and rightly ridiculed.  The lying unionist MP’s from Scotland who seek to preserve their tax payer funded Westminster gravy train existence, are being shown up for what they are.
     
    I do not doubt attempts will be made to demonise the SNP, independence and sites like these, as in fact it has already been done repeatedly for the last two years.  
     
    I expect more of the same lying and deceptive behaviour by the anti independence campaign in 2014, but sadly for them it is a failed strategy.  Better together is now in common parlance seen as ‘project fear’, and with each passing day, many more people just laugh when they read the latest silly scare story.  ‘Better Together’ is just becoming one big sad elitist tory funded joke.
     
    We will win in 2014.  There is NO positive case for the union.  It really is that simple.

  114. scottish_skier says:

    http://archive.is/AsInD
     
    Poll: 71% in rUK say iScotland should keep using pound
     
    It put support for a shared currency at 71%, while 75% backed continuing the common travel area, with no passport controls between Scotland and England.

  115. call me dave says:

    Keep a common currency poll.
     
    http://archive.is/VTDg7
     
    Wee Wullie is worried about our money being spent frivolously
     
    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/poll-50-say-scots-government-is-spending-too-much-on-indy-campaign.1388309063

  116. Robert Louis says:

    SS,
     
    So yet again we see another selection of ‘better together’ scare stories fully rubbished with hard facts.  When will these unionists ever learn.

  117. caz-m says:

    BBC Radio Scotland headlines programme with Ken MacDonald with their usual unbalanced views on Scottish Independence.

    Ken reminds us that the polls just haven’t moved and they are stuck on 1/3 YES and 2/3 NO.

    And the Irishman editor of the “Big Issue” Paul MacNamee, who is extremely pro union and very anti Yes campaign, tries to down play the Sunday Times story.

    Also English woman Katie Grant (Don’t know what she does) was on as a guest, another pro union supporter.

    Could’nt BBC Scotland find ONE person in the whole of Scotland that was FOR Scottish Independence to come into the studio and put forward a positive case for the YES campaign.

    Typically negative BBC Scotland outlook on Scotland.

    The theme running through the whole show was that they all just wanted this big bad referendum thing to go away and leave them alone.

    I’ve got news for them, we are going nowhere and the real campaign is just about to start.

  118. call me dave says:

    Oops posted wrong link for Wullie . here is arch link.
     
    http://archive.is/Gmqrf

  119. Dorothy Devine says:

    Whooo! Definitely a ” fearty” article on the ST front page – comments by such a popular figure (in Scotland!) by the one and only Lord Forsyth no less.
    He refers to the ” ridiculous white paper published by Salmond last month” – wonder if he bothered his wee ermine arse to read it before describing it as ” ridiculous”?
    Allegedly , he has waited for the government to announce a debate in the HoC and the HoL and ,woe is he , but nothing has been forthcoming.
    He says” it’s  time England woke up and that we ,as partners in the United Kingdom, work out how we are going to move forward and ensure that a reckless decision to break up the UK is not made in September”
    May I offer the dear Lord my personal assurance that my decision is far from reckless and my desire to be rid of him and his ilk has been taken in a most measured manner over a period of many disappointed and disappointing years?

  120. Rev, totally aff topic, apologies, but I wiz at the Bowling club last nite an I had three possible yes voters but they were worried aboot the pension black hole pish, so could anybody gie me a link to a site that can elevate their fears, please? (have the business for scotland wan)

  121. gerry parker says:

    @ Joe Kane, excellent link sir, bookmarked for future reading.
    g.p

  122. gerry parker says:

    @The tree of liberty.
    Good info in the white paper, I’m only about 25% of the way through it now, but if you get the Kindle or electronic copy it’s fully searchable.
    Hope this helps.
    g.p
    P.S – Having a pension from a large UK corporation, and rapidly approaching state pension age, I can assure you I have no personal fears on the issue.
    g.p

  123. Gerry, got that, cheers………The Tree. 

  124. Ken500 says:

    Pensions are paid from general taxation. Scottish taxpayers pay for Scottish gov pensions and benefits £17Billion from the £60Billion raised in taxes. Private pension schemes pay the same out to all members. They get out what they put in, anywhere in the world, including foreign gov pensions.

    Pensioners pay tax.

    Scottish Gov (official) website search GERS P36.

    Scotland pays back to the UK Treasury £4Billion loan repayments on monies it doesn’t borrow or spend. The rest of the UK doesn’t pay back £36Billion off the Deficit.

    Scotland could save £3Billion scrapping Trident and putting a tax on cheap ‘loss leading’ alcohol etc, etc.

  125. gordoz says:

    You run the site Stuart – if posts need blocked for any reason just do it.
     
    (Took me a while to realise the hassles it causes in administration).
     
    Is there no blanket ‘ping back’ notice you could use to inform the guilty of general errors people make or point them to the rules page ?

  126. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    Dorothy! Gerry! Do you think the formatting rules DON’T FRIGGING WELL APPLY TO YOU OR SOMETHING?

  127. ronnie anderson says:

    Dorothy Devine, Tae be fair tae the knobend ( sos for the terminoligy) he did support me in my fight with the then Monklands Dist Council ,to reinstate my back garden that they wanted to sell off for £10k, ( 4 in the block / one flat empty 3 older tenants signed to release they back gardens as the were to old to maintain them, i had done a swap to get a larger house for my family ( the old woman had lost her husband , I swaped to get her nearer her sons family,he stayed up above me , It had taken a year to get Monklands to reinstate the land, back to the tenancy, After all the Sect in a State of Scotland had some clout, an a used that clout to my own ends, Feked the Lab Cooncil, with Tory backin, Noo we awe git tae dae that fekin Lab /Libs/Torys. Roll on Sept . Ha HA

  128. Ken, I’m on your side, but I need a site to direct them to……..regards,

  129. braco says:

    Tree of Liberty,
    Scott Minto has already written everything you might need!
    http://wingsoverscotland.com/rainy-day-blues/
    Thanks again Sneekyboy!
    Hope this helps Tree of Liberty

  130. ScotFree1320 says:

    Windows 7/8? Pah!
    I use Linux Mint 16 Cinnamon and my 5yo laptop runs as quick as a cheetah on steroids.
    http://linuxmint.com

  131. Jimsie says:

    @ Dorothy Devine   Miichael Forsyth, the worm Maggie Thatcher described as the epitome of Scottish manhood. That”s when I finally realised she was completely mad.

  132. gordoz says:

    @caz-m – agreed
     
    But genuinely dont think BBC notice or care, anyone who points these things out is classed as seperatist nutter or pure SNP anyway, so ignored.
     
    We probably need a Glasgow / West of Scotland YES rally – (+ protest outside or across from Pacific Quay, or maybe the bridge). I know Dave MacEwan-Hill has been banging on about this for ages and I agree.

  133. ronnie anderson says:

    SOS Rev , double posting, chinged the line spaceing, PC iliterate, me , no you.

  134. braco, that’ll dae fir me, thanks. (P.S. I don’t remember reading that, an it’s naw under the search button)  

  135. scottish_skier says:

    From the Sunday Times.
     
    In a surprising assessment, he [Lynton Crosby, the prime minister’s election guru] is said to have warned that polls giving unionists a strong lead are wrong.
     
    Just as Alistair Carmichael has been saying too. Good to have my views backed up by the No camp.
     
    It’s not that they are wrong (some do have methodology problems); they are just reporting what people are saying. However, people don’t always say what they are really thinking, particularly on sensitive issues. They often do the opposite of what they had led you to believe they’d do – 2011 being a classic example. Dig a little deeper and things are far better for Yes than they might appear.
     
    Interesting that it’s the Times that keeps printing these Tory stories. Tories attack Darling…Tories fear Yes vote… You might start to think they were being given them by, well, the Tories.

  136. braco says:

    Nae bither Tree. Jist ask and someone will usually know, that’s why Wings is so important.(Thanks again Rev!)
    Good luck with your switherers.

  137. braco says:

    Scottish Skier,
    you wouldn’t have a link to that story would you? I’ve been hearing about it but it’s behind their firewall I think? Cheers.

  138. kalmar says:

    Hmm, I don’t wish to disagree with the overall thrust of this article, but I don’t think it fully answers the scare story.

    As you point out, it’s very easy to perform the (entirely reasonable) checks on who leaves and enters the UK from Ireland currently, as everyone is funnelled through a port or airport.  I myself have been stopped and had my car searched on arriving back to the UK at Holyhead in Wales – I had departed via Scotland (Cairnryan to Belfast) and driven over the border – this being unusual enough to flag up my numberplate and make them ask some quite detailed questions.

    To implement any sort of checking of movement between Scotland and rUK, you would at least need a physical structure with numberplate-reading cameras on it on the M74 and A1 (and whatever other small roads cross the border), and if you want to be able to stop people, these would have to be manned.  Either way, it’s a “border point”, no? 

    Not that it’s an unreasonable or terrifying prospect, nor would it hinder trade or public travel in any way if done sensibly, but the basis of the scare story doesn’t seem all that ridiculous in this case.
    Am I wrong?
     

  139. scottish_skier says:

    Scottish Skier,you wouldn’t have a link to that story would you? 
     
    My quote came from someone else’s quote. I’m seeing if they can get an archive.is copy.

  140. Ken500 says:

    The Polls are wrong

    The further North the higher support for Independence. They see the meters running.

    Disillusioned people will vote in the Referendum. People who normally never vote. The Polls are being conducted with weighting related to other elections. Often wrong.

    The Referendum is different.

  141. braco says:

    Scottish Skier,
    thanks for taking the time. Just asked on the off chance, as I am sure others here are in the same boat. Cheers

  142. Ken500 says:

    The Sunday Times – Murdoch – an immigrant

    Right wing tax evading Thatcherite

  143. bannock hussler says:

    @ Ken 500
    “They see the meters running.”
     
    A nice phrase.

  144. scottish_skier says:

    Scotland and rUK, you would at least need a physical structure with numberplate-reading cameras on it on the M74 and A1 (and whatever other small roads cross the border)
     
    They already have these. I’ve seen them on the M74 near the border. Set-up on overpasses with a police car parked further down the road to pull you over if your numberplate flags up something (from no MOT to suspected drug mule I presume).

  145. ronnie anderson says:

    gordaz, am anither wan, that been bangin on about a rally, againt MSM ALL,MSM.
    & to get somebody on here to start a online PETITION to the SG, for withdrawall of BBC
    contract as HOLLYROOD BROADCASTER, its one way of bringing attention, of BBC BIAS,
    they have to BROADCAST the DEBATE, whether the SG implement it or not.

  146. Dorothy Devine says:

    Humble apologies Rev!
    I was a little overexcited.

  147. “I was a little overexcited.” Lucky Lassie. 
    I’m wie you, Ronnie. 

  148. braco says:

    Ken500,
    absolutely correct. How can they ‘weight’ for an event that they have no previous experience of? This referendum is being ‘polled’ as if it’s party political, with all the previous election experience that drags along with it. The high turn out alone is enough to completely stuff most ‘weighting’ equations, as many, many who are weighted as unlikely to turn up, will in fact vote.
     
    Worse than that (for BetterNO), the more disaffected with the current political system, the more likely you are to vote YES. The ‘Disaffected’ certainly cannot be relied upon to simply ‘not turn up’ this time as they are during ‘politics as usual’ elections.
     
    YES is for change.

  149. kalmar says:

    @Scottish_skier –
    Thinking about it the police even have this sort of setup for traffic entering and leaving Fife so it’s not hugely surprising.

    So “therefore you’d need to go through border checks to visit your grandpa in Penrith.” is also already true, ish. 

    I suppose I just feel that it might get a bit more obvious when it’s properly separate countries.
     

  150. braco says:

    kalmar,
    what you and Scottish Skier are discussing already happens within the UK as we speak, and would continue to happen should we vote to be independent, just as it does now between say Portugal and Spain. Portugal and Spain are within a free movement area and Scotland, rUK, Eire etc will remain within our own free movement area. Nothing will change. This is at the root of Scott Minto’s very good article I think.

  151. caz-m says:

    As I already mentioned, what Ken MacDonald quoted on BBC Scotland was an outright lie. The polls don’t say YES 1/3 and NO 2/3.

    It was just another flippant, biased lie. He knows that the polls are showing a large number of Don’t Knows, but he just didn’t think it was important enough to inform the listeners about.

    So, I am all for some kind of protest highlighting BBC Scotland bias.

    It could be set up so that it is in conjunction with a larger YES Campaign rally that should be held in Glasgow.

    I am sure a Glasgow Rally would attract a huge turnout.

  152. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ronnie ,I’m really pleased the delightful Lord did at least one good thing while in office!

  153. Jingly Jangly says:

    Tree of liberty
    Re pensions
    see this letter from Dept of pensions re pensions in an independent Scotland  on munquin’s republic, copy also avail on Yes Aberdeenshire facebook page
    http://yesaberdeenshire.net/index.php/the-blog/562-a-xmas-letter-from-the-dwp-yes-you-will-get-your-pension-post-indy-r-collinson

  154. Chickenhawk 2 says:

    Re the pension question.
     
    My sister-in-law, who lives in Manitoba, and has done for the past 30 odd years, is in receipt of a UK pension. It is based on about 10 years pension contributions by her ex-husband before they went to Canada. She did not work here after marriage. Not only that, but they divorced about 20 years ago.
     
    So there you have it, a pension paid in a furrin country, in a furrin currency, based on a few years contributions here, because remember, contributions don’t start, or didn’t, till you turned 20, and based on the earnings of a guy she last saw 20 something years ago.  Also has a Canadian pension, of course.

  155. proudscot says:

    As far as I’m concerned, if the NO Campaigners are right on their “foreigners” assertion, then the sooner the likes of Carmichael, Darling, Curran, Davidson, Murphy, Forsyth, Foulkes, et al, become foreigners the better!!!

  156. kalmar says:

    @Braco – I still think there’s an inconsistency in the argument here: You say “nothing will change” and also say the arrangement will be the same as between Britain and Eire.  
     
    Legalities of the CTA aside, there are, in practice, border checkpoints between Britain and Eire, which do not currently exist between England and Scotland.  They are different situations.   So you’d have to augment what measures there are to achieve the same level of “security”, right?  
     
    Perhaps Spain and Portugal is a better example – do they have identical immigration policy by any chance?
     

  157. gordoz says:

    proudscot
     
    I think that will be their swansong separation from Scotchland. There only choice surely; or pantomime clowns ‘rankbadyins’ in the new Scotland model. 

  158. theycan'tbeserious says:

    Westminster/ the union / Better together are becoming more and more surreal.
     
    Imagine this story as a promotion for a record release?!
     
    Bullshit Records in association with scaremonger productions, today, released the latest single from their flagging (unpopular) band “the union”. The single “Border guards, barbed wire and pan-pipes”, according to the groups manager “will rock the foundations of the uk”!
     
    A bad day to give up turkey!     



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