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The chasm between words and actions

Posted on May 08, 2016 by

We’ll just leave this here:

greenequality

Actual percentage of female MSPs returned in the 2016 Scottish Parliament election:

Labour 46%, SNP 43%, Conservative 19%, Green 16%, Lib Dem 0%.

Hmm.

An interesting quirk of the Scottish electoral system is that if a list MSP stands down or dies, there isn’t a by-election. Because list votes are for a party not a person, they’re replaced by the next person on their party’s list, if there is one.

(This caused some controversy a few years ago when SNP list MSPs Jean Urquhart and John Finnie resigned from the party over the vote on NATO membership, but chose to remain in their seats. Some people said that because they were elected specifically as SNP members, not as themselves, they should have resigned and let SNP MSPs take their place. Finnie is now a Green list MSP.)

What that means, of course, is that if the Greens were truly committed to mandatory 50/50 gender representation in the Scottish Parliament, as their manifesto claims, they could have two of their five non-woman (the official Green terminology) MSPs stand down, to be replaced by women from the party’s list, instantly catapulting the party from second-bottom on the gender-equality table to first place.

(Every one of the five has a woman in second place on the Green lists.)

disappointedharvie

Alert readers will know that Wings Over Scotland is opposed to gender quotas. We’re against discrimination full stop. But even we have to admit that it’d be an admirable statement of principle and integrity if the Greens put their money where their mouths are on the subject. There’s absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.

Let’s all hold our breath and see if it happens, shall we?

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    1. 08 05 16 14:56

      The chasm between words and actions | speymouth

    426 to “The chasm between words and actions”

    1. Socrates MacSporran says:

      It is one thing to gender balance any particular party’s list of candidates, it is quite another thing to get the electorate to vote for them in a gender-balanced manner. It will never happen.

    2. Ken500 says:

      Greens renegade again

    3. gordoz says:

      Hasn’t Mr Finnie already had a shot – so to speak ?

      Surely honour for green ideals must come into this ??

    4. Auld Rock says:

      Can’t hold on any longer, can I take a breath please, LOL.

      Auld Rock

    5. MajorBloodnok says:

      Haha. Wound. Salt. Rub.

    6. schrodingers cat says:

      im not a fan of gender balancing either

      if half the candidates are men and the other half women

      it is the electorate who should decide, if they elect all of the women and no men, so be it. that’s democracy

      all of the parties now have some form of gender balancing, including the snp. not sure why it is necessary to beat up the greens and destroy the yes movement any more than it already has been.

    7. Cuilean says:

      Didn’t Green MSP, Ross Greer, infamously disparage a female Green Party activist (when handing out Green party t-shirts and the lassie asked Mr Greer for an ‘extra large’ size) that women her size (size 16-18) should not be in the Greens?

      So really, you would have to add the proviso, that so long as the female Green list candidates were size 12 or under, (maybe size 14 is too big too for Mr Greer)?, only then could the (skinny) females replace their male list MSPs.

      Does Mr Ross weigh the Green female MSP candidates personally?

      Is there the same weight restriction on male Green MSP candidates?

      How about beer bellies?

      Wee middle age paunches?

      Why stop there, Mr Ross? If female appearance is so important to the Greens, should the female Green candidates be allowed to wear make-up or not? have you decided on that yet? If so, how much?
      Maybe no false eyelashes?

      Maybe only make-up which has not been tested on animals?

      We await your decrees on the females of the species with bated breath. Or maybe baited breath…

    8. Breeks says:

      Give it time. D’hondt will chop their balls off and everything will be fine.

    9. Ross Greer up for doing the decent, gender balanced thing?

    10. Valerie says:

      Hmmm

      Can’t argue with your logic, but I’m not holding my breath.

      Looks like empty rhetoric if they don’t action it, because it is legit to argue the list is for party.

      I suppose Green activists might get out their pram, if they spent time on their local candidate?

      Is that valid?

    11. Onwards says:

      I don’t care about that so much as the idiotic decision to stand a vanity candidate in Edinburgh and help to let Ruth Davidson in.

      What genius thought of that one ?
      Really helped their ‘YES’ credentials there.

    12. schrodingers cat says:

      Cuilean says:
      Didn’t Green MSP, Ross Greer, infamously disparage a female Green Party activist…….

      I heard he sacrifices young children to the god bal
      I dont like greer, never have, but 21 year olds saying stupid things on social media is not limited to the greens.

      personally, i couldnt give a flying fuck about the greens, or the snp for that matter, I am an advocate for scottish independence and avoid trying to rubbish other indy supporters for the good of the cause

    13. Truth says:

      It puts me in mind a few years ago of a women’s magazine campaigning hard to get women’s football on the telly.

      They succeeded and the resultant viewing figures were abominable.

      If women aren’t interested in something why should male interests be handicapped to accommodate them?

      I have no idea really, but I wouldn’t be surprised if our present top heavy non woman representation reflects more accurately the genders’ interest in politics than a 50/50 quota would.

      It’s important to look at a person’s actions too ergo my sporting example above. So many of the women claimed to be interested in women’s football, but were clearly not interested when looked in the context of viewing figures.

      We have a great many wonderful women who got on in politics without the need of quotas. Margo and Nicola stand out above most men.

      Discrimination is a backwards step, positive or otherwise.

    14. Valerie says:

      @Cat

      Well I bloody care about this gobshite Greer! We have what we have in Holyrood now, and its not what I wanted.

      If the Greens are pro Indy, then Greer reflects on Indy, Holyrood, Scotland with that kind of crap.

      I’m more than prepared to call out anyone on that kind of shit because it’s not how we should behave.

      His age is irrelevant, it’s his behaviour. Mhairi Black is the same age, and since becoming a member, hasn’t put afoot wrong.

      Greer was obviously a Green member at the time of body shaming someone.

    15. thingy says:

      6 non-genders is perfect equality. 🙂

    16. Cuilean says:

      @ Schrodingers Cat

      It wasn’t ‘stupid’ per se.

      It was sair, ill-kindit bangstrie.

    17. Truth says:

      @valerie

      Please understand I’m not defending Greer, but I think the point he was making is that being that size is not ethically green as you are using more resources than you need.

      I don’t agree with it, but green philosophy has many of these taboos, the biggest of which is population control.

      I shudder to think what Greer thinks about that.

    18. Capella says:

      Well there are only six of them.
      I would rather be attacking the Tories. They are the real enemies of democracy. I don’t see any strategic advantage in alienating potential supporters.

      According to the media, Ruth Davidson won the election. She will now set about issuing her list of demands. No. 1 demand is that Nicola Sturgeon rule out a second Indyref. I expect Labour and LibDems to support that. That leaves the Greens to support a “leave it to the Scottish people” vote.

    19. Alan says:

      Great article about nothing.

    20. schrodingers cat says:

      Well I bloody care about this gobshite Greer! We have what we have in Holyrood now, and its not what I wanted.

      rather greer than another unionist?…. unless you prefer anas sarwar etc.

      indeed another 3 greens replaced with unionists and we would have been out of government.

      Im not defending greer, i dont like him any more than i like sheridan, but i do and say what i say for the benefit of the independence movement

      I am not willing to destroy this movement because of the witterings of a few idiots. if you think greers comments are sufficient to bring down the independence movement then i suggest politly that you fuck off val

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 May, 2016 at 12:32 pm:

      ” … not sure why it is necessary to beat up the greens and destroy the yes movement any more than it already has been.

      That statement assumes the Greens are actually committed to the YES movement. This is, of course, a debateable point.

      Quite frankly I have always had my doubts that the Scottish Greens are doing little more than paying lip service to both the YES movement and gender equality. As to Gender equality – I’m with Rev Stu on that one. I don’t give a damn what gender, (or none), that a politician is but care a great deal what her/his/its political views and capabilities are.

      I believe that the putting forward for election to office should only be based upon the person’s political views and capabilities.

      What their sexual orientation happened to be is none of my business and has no effect upon their fitness for office. It would only ever become my business if I was intending to take them out on a date but certainly not if I was intending to vote for them.

    22. scottieDog says:

      Maybe they meant ginger balance

    23. schrodingers cat says:

      Cuilean
      It was sair, ill-kindit bangstrie.

      nae shortage of that on wos either or on any indy blog site

      the independence movement has enough divisive elements and im not about to sit by and watch them turn it into the peoples front of judea

      either piss on the pot or get off cuilean

    24. Cuilean says:

      @ Truth

      I’m kinda hoping, in Holyrood’s new seating arrangements, that Ms Jackie Baillie makes a point of sitting right next to the wee nyaff, Mr Ross Greer.

      Go on, Ms Baillie! Wummin o’ a’ pairts will ruff ye!

      Mess wi’ the wummin o’ Scotland at your peril.

      And as for Women for Indy’s Jeanne Freeman…. well it’s Goodnight Vienna, Mr Ross….

    25. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat

      I’m not following why you think criticism of the Greens will harm the Independence movement.

      Do you think criticising them will turn them into NO supporters?

    26. schrodingers cat says:

      That statement assumes the Greens are actually committed to the YES movement. This is, of course, a debateable point.

      no it isnt, it is mr peffer, it is propaganda being sown amongst us to divide the indy movement,

      Quite frankly I have always had my doubts that the Scottish Greens are doing little more than paying lip service to both the YES movement and gender equality.

      thats right, john finnie was never an snp msp, harvey wasnt one of the most effective proponents of indy during the ref… you need to wait a wee bit longer mr peffer before you try and change history….
      perhaps you prefer the unionists who dont even pay lip service but oppose it completely?

      personally, i couldnt give a monkeys for green party policy, or for the snps either i only care for independence and will always try to ease tensions between indy supporting groups rather than inflaming them

      I agree with you and stu about equal womens lists etc, complete havers

    27. Valerie says:

      @Cat

      Deliberately misunderstanding what I posted, then whining about destroying an Indy movement by telling me to fuck off?

      No, you gtf.

      Dont know who’s shat in your litter tray, but there’s no point acting like an arsehole on here to further the cause of Indy.

      You know fine the point I was making.

    28. Rober Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 May, 2016 at 1:14 pm:

      ” … I am not willing to destroy this movement because of the witterings of a few idiots. if you think greers comments are sufficient to bring down the independence movement then i suggest politly that you fuck off val”

      Now, schrodingers cat, I detect a couple of wee anomalies in your comments.

      The first is that you claim to, “politly”, tell Val to go away in a most impolite manner. The second is your strange claim to have no wish to bring down the independence movement while actually doing just that by telling a fellow independence supporter to, “fuck off”.

    29. schrodingers cat says:

      Ruby

      I’m not following why you think criticism of the Greens will harm the Independence movement.

      Do you think criticising them will turn them into NO supporters?

      no, i believe the unionist media critisises all indy parties enough for one life time. the bickering between the indy parties is what i object to, why? take a look at the make up of todays holyrood?

      this critisism is responsable for the demise of the SSP, Rise, Solidarity and RIC
      (i couldnt care what they stand for…. they are, or were, not unionists… that should have been enough for everyone)

      you think this helps the indy movement? take a look at yourself

    30. Cuilean says:

      Scots word ‘ruff’ is ‘applaud’ in the English.

    31. Valerie says:

      @ Mr Peffers

      🙂

      Anyone who has owned cats knows that some of them can be crabby, and scratch for no apparent reason. I’ve seen this particular cat in a few different moods on here, and this is his ugly mood.

    32. schrodingers cat says:

      yeah, you are right mr peffer, sorry val

      im just annoyed how all of this has panned out

      it didnt need to be this way

    33. K1 says:

      Rev did you put this up just to create some tension as if there isn’t enough already?

      I get your ‘point’ but what is the point?

      We are were we are. I’m not on board with this ‘line’ of ‘hypocrisy’ when the biggest hypocrites have just taken over the opposition in our parliament.

      It’s the Tories we should be going after…they are out front and centre pissing all over our actual win. Focusing on the real enemy would actually bring us back together. This just fuels the party line divisions after the results are in. It’s keeping the division going.

      Which is pointless.

    34. Dr Jim says:

      If anyone wants to interview a leader of the Yes movement how do they go about it or who is it?
      It’s just that there only seems to be a facebook page and a band referenced if you google it

      I’m really not trying to be funny here but if STV want to talk to a leading person in it or an organiser preferably does anyone have a name?

    35. Glamaig says:

      How about a little digging on our lovely new Tory MSPs? Lets find out who they are.

    36. schrodingers cat says:

      @val
      You know fine the point I was making.

      yup, womens equality and bigoted male chauvinists like greer

      individual issues, equality, eco, socialism etc are all subordinate to independence

      that is the only point I have ever made.

    37. Truth says:

      Regardless of whether you believe criticising greens/rise etc is damaging to independence or not, that is how it will be perceived and reported by our malicious media.

      So for that reason, I’m with the cat.

      Let’s get on and make the most of it. All the differences can be settled when we reach out destination.

    38. schrodingers cat says:

      hear hear k1

    39. Ken500 says:

      It was voting 2nd Green that let the Tories through.Instead of voting SNP x 2 guaranteeing a Independence majority.

      They could harm the Independence movement.

    40. schrodingers cat says:

      How about a little digging on our lovely new Tory MSPs? Lets find out who they are.

      fat chance, too many folk on here trying to convince everyone that the greens are in fact 5th columnist shape shifting lizard aliens.

    41. Cuilean says:

      @ Val

      Yeah, it’s just crabbie cat day.

      One of my favourite posters hereon is the Cat and when Cat is in purry cat mood, there is no funnier or wittier poster on Wings.

    42. Truth says:

      Yes, great post K1.

      Direct our energy towards fighting the real enemies. That goes for all the yes movement.

      If we all put our differences to the side for now, we are a mean fighting machine. The referendum campaign showed that. Let’s not do the unionists job for them.

    43. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat

      We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. 🙂

      I think criticism of each other is absolutely fine and I’m quite happy to take as good as I give.

      If we fall out we can always make-up later and that is often a great bonding experience.

      On saying that I don’t know enough about the Greens to criticise them and on the issue of gender equality I’ve been hearing all about that since I burnt a perfectly good bra way back in the 60’s and TBH it’s getting boring!

      I don’t even know any more what is meant by gender or if it is or isn’t the same as sexual orientation.

    44. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 1:48 pm

      How about a little digging on our lovely new Tory MSPs? Lets find out who they are.

      Ruby replies

      Totally agree with on that. I can’t wait to get stuck into the ‘Ruth Davidson-NO to Independence we are not Torries Oppostion Party’

    45. louis.b.argyll says:

      These guys/gals aren’t Green at all.

      To respect natural selection we must respect the differences between genders.

      Do the ‘greens’ really want to HOMOGENISE politics.

    46. schrodingers cat says:

      I’ve seen this particular cat in a few different moods on here

      thats because im a composite troll val. its a trick you see there’s 2 of us

      today im in a bad mood, ive just seen a fair few of the indy supporting groups wiped out

    47. Holebender says:

      It was surely not beyond the wits of the Greens to ensure that half their candidate lists were topped by women? Were they so arrogant that they assumed they’d get two list MSPs in every region?

    48. Tony Little says:

      @SC

      Shouldn’t that be “Bhaal”?

      In any case I agree with you about discrimination – positive or not. It is unsustainable and by definition having gender preference leads to a candidate proposed on what they are rather than what they can do.

      If the Greens selected their regional list candidates on merit, and due to that meritocratic process all their lists were headed by women, I’ll bet people would complain like mad.

      I seem to recall when NS had her first cabinet (gender balanced) she remarked that she had a lot of questions about whether the women were there on merit, but not one question about the men.

      We still live in a male-dominated political environment, despite the fact Holyrood has (for now) three female party leaders. I don’t think that will change any time soon.

    49. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500
      It was voting 2nd Green that let the Tories through.Instead of voting SNP x 2 guaranteeing a Independence majority.

      it was voting 2nd green in fife and mid that ensured the greens won and not a slab msp
      even if all greens/rise/solidarity voters in this region had voted snp2, slab would have won the 7th list seat

    50. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 1:43 pm

      hear hear k1

      Ruby replies

      I’m surprised that you said that!

      I approve of KI’s criticism of the Rev but then as I said earlier I approve of criticism.

      I won’t be giving KI a lecture on this occasion! 🙂

      That reminds me I’ve still got to go and face the long post K1 left for me on the other thread.

    51. schrodingers cat says:

      Ruby replies

      I’m surprised that you said that!

      why? it is the only point i have ever argued for

    52. K1 says:

      It wasn’t that long a post Ruby, stop exaggerating for ‘affect’ 🙂

    53. Ken500 says:

      It let in Tories in – in NE and Edinburgh. One Slab – or Greens,and Tories . No SNP despite barrow loads of 1st votes. A Tory landowner on the NE. Tories who got 2nd and 3rd and a few thousand votes. 137,000 SNP (1st) votes disregarded.

      According to Rev Stu. It just needed 150 more SNP votes for an outright majority

      Troll away 6 Greens + 7 Tories or 1 Slab and an outright Independence majority 7 = SNP seats

    54. Iain More says:

      I don’t honestly care, all I care about is that they are competent and pro Scottish whatever their gender or orientation In the case of the Tories and SLAB that is questionable on all accounts of competence. We know that they are all rabid Scotland haters whatever.

    55. louis.b.argyll says:

      After independence.. I would consider joining the environmental movement.

      I feel passionate about returning land ownership to a fat-of-the land economic opportunity.

    56. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 2:05 pm

      Ruby replies

      I’m surprised that you said that!

      why? it is the only point i have ever argued for

      Because ‘schrodingers cat’ you are saying we shouldn’t be criticising other independence supporters. The Rev is an Independence supporter hence criticism prohibido.

    57. Iain More says:

      In relation to the gender balance in the SNP. What Nationalist minded female really has what it takes to suffer what is going to be misogyny plus plus from the rabid Brit Nat Press and Media. They are going to get extra scrutiny from the Brit Nat Press and Media, thick skins with an extra layer of bullet proofing is required.

      The Brit Nat Press and Media will never stop to ask about their intelligence or qualifications to do the job. They haven’t scrutinised The Tank Commander Davidson on those counts because she is lacking in both in my view but then so are the rest of her Party regardless of gender.

    58. K1 says:

      Yes but why are you surprised Cat ‘hear hear’ my post Ruby?

      What have I got to do with the point you think you are making to Cat?

      If you’ve something to say to another poster Ruby about what they are saying d’ye think you could just address them directly about your point to them?

      Stop ‘springboarding’ off my comments please, you could have effectively said that to Cat’s ‘face’ without utilising my input.

    59. Petra says:

      Pretty sad state of affairs on this site between one thing and another. Diabolical in fact. Attacking the Greens and now each other. The Unionist lurkers must be rubbing their hands with glee. Having a field day.

      Why are we still focusing on the Greens? I don’t get it. Many of them voted for the SNP. Without their support we could have found ourselves with fewer SNP MSPs being elected. Why not stand back and just wait and see how they perform in Holyrood?

      Rather than constantly castigating them what about putting up a list of Tory MSPs and discuss them, such as Tomkins … a real threat IMO.

      MANY SNP members and supporters are in favour of Green policies, myself included, and if anything this constant assault on them may result in us losing SNP supporters. Losing them to the Green Party.

      It’s high time we got real, got back on track and focused on our real enemies and that ain’t the Green Party. A party that supports Independence.

    60. mike cassidy says:

      Come on, people.

      The rev decides to have a little Sunday fun and you fall for it.

      Anyway, the Greens only need to get two of their non-women to have a sex change.

      Problem solved!

    61. schrodingers cat says:

      Because ‘schrodingers cat’ you are saying we shouldn’t be criticising other independence supporters. The Rev is an Independence supporter hence criticism prohibido.

      im saying save your criticism for the unionists. the indy parties get more than enough of a raw deal and criticism from the unionist media.

      it is the criticisms of rise/ssp/ric and solidarity which has caused their demise. i dont think this helps the indy movement which managed to avoid such criticisms during the ref. it was our differences which was our strength. it is our differences which are now our demise.

      “you are saying we shouldn’t be criticising other independence supporters”

      er…yes

    62. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500
      what are you wittering about?

      i believed in tactical voting to maximise the indy parties at holyrood and reduce the unionists

      the difference is that i understand that the probabilities and the maths are NOT the same in each region

      fact
      voting snp1&2 in highlands and the south was the only option
      voting snp1&greens2 in fife and mid was the only option

      i argued this consistently and was proven correct

      you keep on muttering yer inanities and referencing terry kelly on sgp, hes as big an erse as you are sonny

    63. Valerie says:

      Ok wingers, hold hands now

      Soft kitty, warm kitty
      Little ball of fur
      Happy kitty, sleepy kitty
      Purr, purr, purr

      If that doesn’t work, I’ve got a water pistol

    64. Ruby says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 2:30 pm

      Yes but why are you surprised Cat ‘hear hear’ my post Ruby?

      What have I got to do with the point you think you are making to Cat?

      If you’ve something to say to another poster Ruby about what they are saying d’ye think you could just address them directly about your point to them?

      Stop ‘springboarding’ off my comments please, you could have effectively said that to Cat’s ‘face’ without utilising my input.

      Ruby replies

      YCBS!

    65. Iain More says:

      mike cassidy says:
      8 May, 2016 at 2:31 pm

      “Come on, people.

      The rev decides to have a little Sunday fun and you fall for it.

      Anyway, the Greens only need to get two of their non-women to have a sex change.

      Problem solved!”

      I was going to suggest two nominations for that but I think the females in my own family would lynch me.

    66. Capella says:

      definitely O/T
      Craig Murray has a few interesting posts up today.
      BBC Lies and Statistics #SackKuenssberg
      An Honest Man at the BBC @KKeaneBBC 14
      Cheer Up! The Glass is Full for Independence.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/

      Something to read till this spat blows over.

    67. mogabee says:

      WOW. So many kitty cat posts today. Seems Stu touched a nerve or two!

      Greens: you either love them or hate them, I’m partial as long as butter is added…is that GREEN? 🙂

    68. A2 says:

      bit ott really. The green candidates were interleaved, if they’d only one seat in each area or if they’d taken two in each, then you’d have that gender balance.

      The electorate decided otherwise, although obviously it’s a bit of a push to say anyone made a decision on the actual composition of the lists.

      Personally I’d be happy to not have Ross Greer there, he’s an arrogant wee twerp and frankly a liability. Losing Andy Whightman though would be an act of complete stupidity and I can only hope that the SNP have the sense to make good use of his specialty.

    69. Proud Cybernat says:

      SCat: “…not sure why it is necessary to beat up the greens and destroy the yes movement any more than it already has been.”

      It doesn’t matter how much the pro-indy lobby bicker among ourselves–it simply doesn’t. We do it all the time and have been doing it long before IndyRef#1. Debate is healthy. And neither does it matter how much the concern trolls and HMG spooks operate under the radar to try and stir up pro-indy bickering and division. They will fail in their ultimate goal.

      For here is a simple truth:

      The moment, the second, IndyRef#2 is announced, ALL the pro-indy bickering will vanish like snow off a dyke and we will all pull together again as one solid, unstoppable YES movement juggernaut.

      It’s guaranteed.

      So bicker away folks – as I said, debate is healthy. How’d you like ’em apples spooks?

    70. K1 says:

      Ruby, have no idea what that means?

    71. louis.b.argyll says:

      Wouldn’t call it bickering..

      More like sorting out the pigeon-holes before the media tell us what’s (not) what.

    72. Ruby says:

      Capella: Interesting article

      ‘I find some social media comment unduly pessimistic on the prospects for Independence, which have never been brighter.’ Craig Murray

      I was suprised by the pessimism! I put it down to people not getting enough sleep
      ie doing an allnighter watching the election results.

      The thing that is making me really angry is the sleekitness of the Tory party tactics.

      Pretend not to be Tories
      Insist Cameron & Osborne stay away
      Campaign for 2nd Place
      Only one policy NO to referendum.

    73. Ruby says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 3:01 pm

      Ruby, have no idea what that means?

      Ruby replies

      YCBS!

      Think John McEnroe!

    74. Joemcg says:

      The bottom line is if the greens did not exist or stand candidates we would have had a majority and the yoons would not be doing somersaults now. That’s a fact.

    75. Orri says:

      Realistically all you need is them to redefine themselves as non male and their definition of gender balance.

      Made a post on another thread but I’ll recap as it’d limit future squables over tactical voting whilst removing the ability to try to game the system.

      Simply merge the two ballots into one STV/AV one. The first choice is the party you want in the region. The remaining, if needed, are who your constituency candidate should be.

      Instantly there’s no ambiguity about your choice. You put an x or 1 against the party you want. As that’s your list vote it’s already been counted after the first round.

      There could be a possibility of simply putting a Party name as a candidate which indicates a list only vote or there could be, as some have suggested, a requirement to actually stand for election. I’d favour the former as it allows true independents a chance at getting in within a region.

      I believe there would be little to no change in the outcome of this election. If the combined support for the Greens/SNP was maintained then they would still have ended up with the same total due to the inbuilt thresholding effect of D’Hondt.

      There might have been a fairer distribution between Labour and Conservatives though. Perhaps even more LDs

      The result as far as independence goes would be defusing future tension between allied parties. If tactical voting no longer exists then there’s nothing to argue about.

    76. bookie from hell says:

      I congratulate greens getting more MSPs than LibDems,with less votes.

      The LibDem on BBC was totally pissed off about it–ha,ha

    77. Richardinho says:

      Seriously, please do a piece on Brian Wilson’s article in the Sunday Times. In terms of Labour lunacy even for him it exceeds normal expectations!

    78. louis.b.argyll says:

      Don’t do twitter, too conservative, no depth to the ranting.

      But KEVIN WILLIAMSON… I know you from the 80s, used to chat, discuss progressiveness, Rebel Inc, playwrights, the Arts. Or was all that just a cover, to hide the socialist workers party baloney.

      ANYWAY, FOR BILE AND EVIL..SEE ‘CONSERVATIVE PARTY’ DONT BLAME REV STUART FOR CREATING OR EMBITTERING SOCIAL DIVISION.

      Oh, I don’t do twitter, maybe you were drunk..

    79. crazycat says:

      @ Holebender

      The Greens did have half their lists topped by women.

      Regions were paired, with one woman-led list in each pair; presumably they made some assessment of winnability before deciding which were which. That didn’t work because the electorate didn’t co-operate.

    80. K1 says:

      If you had read my ‘long’ post you would have perhaps have understood where I was coming from Ruby. Being patronising is easier than responding to my query obviously, which is valid even though you have rather ‘cheaply’ attempted to invalidate it with that response. Each to their own.

    81. velofello says:

      Come now, lay off Ross Greer, he is only 21yrs old ..and a bit green.

      Seems to me the D’hondt system is flawed. Reference the previous article, the Unsackables.

      Surely an election should enable you to place your vote for a political party and its representative? The D’hondt system doesn’t allow for that opportunity.I have only ever voted SNP but in this election I abstained on the constituency vote because I was not at all happy with the SNP candidate, my choice. I voted SNP in the list. The SNP secured +40% of the votes in both constituency and list, yet our region has zero SNP representatives elected.

      A project for the Electoral Reform buddies, just as soon as they have cleared out the postal voting stables. Bated breath.

    82. mumsyhugs says:

      The last time the question of gender equality came up on here, posters ended up eating each other! We can’t afford to lose any yes voters folks! 🙂

    83. Ruby says:

      There was mention on another thread about the number of new student halls of residence opening up in Central Edinburgh.

      That is true I know of three that opened up in the last year.

      Two on Holyrood Road or perhaps three and on one Calton Road.

      I would imagine the Ruth Davidson-NO to Independence Opposition party took this into account when they decide to move Ruth from Glasgow to Central Edinburgh.

    84. Joemcg says:

      Ruby good point. There is a huge one at the bottom of the pleasance. Doubt many inhabitants voted SNP.

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 May, 2016 at 1:29 pm:

      ” … no it isnt, it is mr peffer, it is propaganda being sown amongst us to divide the indy movement.”

      Rubbish! schrodingers cat, this is only a reasonable doubt, (shared by more than a few in light of recent actual events), of the actions of the Scottish Greens.

      ” … thats right, john finnie was never an snp msp, harvey wasnt one of the most effective proponents of indy during the ref… you need to wait a wee bit longer mr peffer before you try and change history….”

      Oh! Grow-up. If you imagine you are NOT sowing propaganda right here and now on Wings then you most certainly are wrong. You have already been offensive to others and now you are being offensive to me.

      The SNP are a democratically run party and it is the rank & fine members that make party policy. No member of the executive has any more votes than any rank & file member. All policy must be voted for, or at least go unopposed, at national conference.

      Finnie and Co. did not respect the democratic views of the party and chose to resign as a member of the party but refused to resign his seat in the parliament. Those are not the actions of a democratic member of anything.

      In your illogical defence of Finnie you expose a very offensive and anti-democratic side. Finnie made his choice and he is welcome to it. However he must live with the consequences of his actions and one of those consequences is the seeds of doubt that he puts his own policies before those of the electors who voted for him.

      Like the Greens he seems to others to be paying lip service only to Scottish Independence and thinks his Green credentials of more importance.

    86. Jock McDonnell says:

      Well done Rev, whit a busy weekend you are having.
      From my point of view there are many positives to take out of this result. It’s been noted earlier by yourself & others of course.
      Sure, missing a majority is disappointing but one of the easy targets for yoons is that Independence is heavily associated with one party & weakening that party weakens the Independence cause.
      We need to build a broad consensus, work started on that a few years ago but it’s not finished yet although a notional pro Independence majority is a post along the road.
      Wee Ruthie has unwittingly given the FM an escape clause too on an unsuitable early referendum. Ruthie also will present a wonderful target to hit week after week, Scotland is not ready to have a Tory as a media darling.
      Labour are not quite dead of course but they have forgotten the lesson of the 80s & 90s when fighting the Tories, put Scotland first !
      We’ve also got some new talent added to an already strong lineup, Freeman & McKee for example.
      We are out of our box now, not going back in & cutting the bind of union strand by strand.

    87. louis.b.argyll says:

      Hello, Robert P… Had a spat with the cat myself a good while back..the scars healed though.

      I agree that the SNP are a very open and democratic party.

      So much so, that we should be looking to create post independence movements from within the SNP’s wide ideological Base.

    88. Baldur says:

      You are all braindead. keep poispning the planet while getting off over local politics. I do the sums for you: if you continue to destroy the planet we live on there will be no rUK to break free from. Simple as. So show some insight into the bigger picture and be grateful for the eco warriors. Or just FRACK OFF!

    89. louis.b.argyll says:

      If we have the confidence to plan for a better future.. we can see ourselves in others shoes.

    90. Orri says:

      Another tightening of the lax electoral laws would be that now we have a method of linking registration to NI code it’s taken forward and postal ballots only be available for where the Tax office think you live. In other words not electoral tourism and if you want to screw Scotland by pretending not to live here no vote. “No representation without taxation” sounds familiar.

    91. Dan Huil says:

      The real opposition is still the britnat bbc.

    92. Robert Peffers says:

      I have to wonder at how some people’s brains work. Some seem unable to see their own illogical thought process. Perhaps it is more correct to say they see it but believe others are too dim to notice.

      I was reading the BBC’s news reports this morning and noticed a wee anomaly in regard to the UK Prime Minister’s claimes.

      The first report was that David Cameron was to put tackling corruption, “at the top of the international agenda”, ahead of a London summit on the issue. Mr Cameron says corruption is, “The root of so many of the World’s problems”.

      Now, while I whole heartedly agree with that latter claim, I must respectfully suggest to Mr Cameron he had best, if he is to retain any credit in international circles, look first much nearer to home for where to root out corruption.

      The second BBC report has a big black headline:-

      EIGHT POLICE FORCES LAUNCH INVESTIGATIONS INTO TORY GENERAL ELECTION 2015 FRAUD ACCUSATIONS.

      It continues – “A series of police forces have said they will launch investigations into the allegations the Conservatives broke electoral spending rules.”

      Perhaps Mr Cameron thinks we all have the memory spans of goldfish.

    93. Sandy says:

      Well said, Mr Peffers, to Cat’s post re Finnie. Takes into account personal scruples. How much will this spread now that more tories are in office. Many are out for themselves. Watch this space!!!
      What amazed me was the Shetland vote. After all the shenanigans of the GE vote, the people of Shetland opt for a gentleman farmer whose family own a large chunk of Shetland & is in the process of acquiring a large property in Edinburgh at their expense, almost £1000 per month, I believe. How is this person not a tory? He is. A liner of his own pockets.
      Anyone can concoct a CV.

    94. call me dave says:

      @Ruby
      YCBS

      Ah! McEnrow… 🙂 My spelling.

      PS:
      It’s all about the others until you get to the last paragraph funny old winners world init!…Init!

      Even as recently as five years ago, you would have got shorter odds on East Stirlingshire beating Real Madrid than on the Scottish Conservative and Unionist party gaining more seats at Holyrood than Labour.

      https://archive.is/O1vs9

    95. Dr Jim says:

      An irrelevant party secures votes hoping to make themselves relevant
      What’s really changed? nothing! they’re still irrelevant, but if everybody keeps arguing about them you’ll make them relevant
      and in the bigger scheme of things what’s important is the massive loss that The Region9 (Labour party)incurred, followed by the Tories who really didn’t do much better and looks as though that’ll be as good as it gets for them

      The media can spin away to it’s hearts content and try to make the Tories look like the saviours of the universe but those aren’t the facts are they and we all know it

      Within a very short time the SNP could well be the majority government again after a couple of by elections and even if they’re not does anybody seriously think they won’t run things the way they said they would

      I have complete and total faith the SNP has a plan, they always do, they don’t make this stuff up as they go along
      and they’re a lot smarter than the average buffalo

      Like lots of folk I’m slightly annoyed at some stuff but over all not in the least worried or concerned for what’s next

      We’re doing more than fine

    96. Al Dossary says:

      Come now folks, chill and relax. If anyone had told you in the aftermath of IR1 that we would have 63 MSP’s, labour would (temporarily) nothing other than an irrelevance and that there was a line of fat ducks all lined up in a row (aka Tory toff landowners) for shooting I think we would have been happy with our lot. Not to mention our 6 new green MSP’s who until is proven otherwise we must assume support independance.

      The SNP did after all break the system 5 years ago, and only by some clever media spin, tactical voting and the help of the MSM as always did the Yoons prevent it happening again.

      First priority has to be to subject these tax-dodging landowners to the same level of scrutiny that the SNP group at Westminster have had. When the dirt begins to become apparent, then we shout it from the rooftops about their duplicity.

      I do have a concern about holiday homes, caravans and previously departed children miraculously re-registered at Mater & Paters house, but that digging I may do a little of on Friday when the weekend begins again. Since everyone is now registered by NI number, it should be a simple matter for Holyrood to do some digging and see if there is any duplicity between persons on the voters roll.

      What concerns me in my case is that despite returning the new electoral registration form in March minus myself and wife who are now abroad I still got a polling card through the door in Lanarkshire. Did this also happen to some of those re-found Tories where they had such a stupendous turnout.

    97. Almannysbunnet says:

      Leave the greens alone it was all the fault of old folk…like me. That cannae be right. Ok it was wimmin, they dinnae like Salmond, he wasnae standing you say, ok that cannae be right either. Em fit aboot baldy folk wi ginger beards? No? ok the meeja. Yep I’m laying it at the door of the BBC, bastardos. They did their worst and we still got 59 SNP constituency seats, darling Ruthie got 7 and Labour 3. FFS the liars got 1 more constituency seat than Labour! and Holyrood won’t be contaminated by the UKIP slug.

      Get outside, the sun is shining then get some sleep. Come back tomorrow and let’s start ripping a new one for Ruthie of the shhh you know who party.

    98. Valerie says:

      @Mr Peffers

      You, and others will be pleased to note that one of the first post Holyrood election memes to emerge from our side made good use of the election fraud investigation.

      Picture of smiling Tankgirl introducing herself, with the banner – my party is under criminal investigation for electoral fraud – festooned with butchers aprons.

      The memes will come in great numbers.

    99. louis.b.argyll says:

      There is no politics relating to out list system..

      Shouldn’t all ‘ second / list ‘
      votes be counted nationally..

      With one FPTP style for each whole region based on total 2nd votes..

      The other half-dozen places split same as now…

      BUT PARTIES THEN NOMINATE FROM A NATIONAL LIST..

      Parties nominated MSPs can be based on gender, local expertise, other factors decided by that party.

      Electorate would be able to judge strength in depth of list candidates..and compare possible coalitions etc..

      Current system is lazy.

    100. Scott says:

      Robert Peffers says.
      EIGHT POLICE FORCES LAUNCH INVESTIGATIONS INTO TORY GENERAL ELECTION 2015 FRAUD ACCUSATIONS.

      It continues – “A series of police forces have said they will launch investigations into the allegations the Conservatives broke electoral spending rules.”

      Perhaps Mr Cameron thinks we all have the memory spans of goldfish.
      Not only the party but the individual MPs and should they not have to leave the party just as the SNP MPS have done oh I forget they are Tories.

    101. Legerwood says:

      I don’t suppose this is the time, when you are all in mid rant about the vagaries of the voting system and the parties who, undeservedly some argue, benefitted from it to point out that Ms Sturgeon needs some of their votes to become FM?

      Time to chill and change the record.

    102. call me dave says:

      Leslie Riddoch:

      The Tories were once unmentionable in Scotland. Not any more

      https://archive.is/iSFjC

      She acknowledges a split ‘may have’ allowed Ruthie to win on the constituency vote.

      Off to catch the Murray mint V his nemesis in a wee while!

      Chill out until Monday folks. Radio shortbread Kaye will be on ‘your call’ and will unite us all again… I hope.

    103. heedtracker says:

      It doesnt bode well does it.

      Its like watching a vegetarian tucking in to a juicy steak and he’s going, “what? I’m hungry, its free range, its just one steak, I’m still a veggie, what are you laughing at?”

    104. Roger Mexico says:

      Of course if only 10% of all those wasted SNP regional votes had gone to the Greens then there would have been ten Green MSPs – five men and five women.

      Still better to elect Tories instead, eh?

    105. Ruby says:

      Totally off topic & probably not very interesting

      I’ve just been reading thought a whole load of Times articles (I was looking for the Brian Wilson article without success) and I read an article about Eddie Izzard and realised that he wasn’t campaigning in Scotland for Labour this year. I also read the he wants to become a Labour MP in 2020 and perhaps that is why he gave Scotland a miss!

    106. louis.b.argyll says:

      I will not change the record.
      I can not dim my desire.
      We will continue to be a wide movement.
      We can not start playing a different game just because an own goal is scored.

    107. Anagach says:

      Shame on you Rev, your just winding up the Pizza Queen. 🙂

    108. heedtracker says:

      Rancid The Graun likes Green too, shock. Its not a shock, Graun’s also a giant pile middle class shy tory hypocrites and hand wringers.

      Riddock says maybe Green did let the toryboys back in but

      “Doubtless some SNP supporters will be critical of yes voters – including myself – who publicly declared an intention to split their vote, supporting the SNP in the constituency section and the Greens on the list.

      Yet the prospect of SNP/Green cooperation is a dream result for many on the yes-supporting left who want a bolder programme of reform in key areas such as local taxation, land reform, fracking, energy and human rights – the Scottish Greens want a citizen-led written constitution, for example. SNP supporters argued that divisions over domestic policy would only rock the independence boat, and should wait until after independence. Clearly that outlook must now be shelved.”

      That clearly shelved bit from Riddock’s thing is interesting, as clearly Green’s had decided whatever the result, independence is shelved so lets get a taste of the Green action, we’re Green and yes, we’re full of shit but stuff like a citizen-led written constitution is really really nice and will really really make a fuck of a difference in our scotland region.

    109. Gender balance is dead easy. Have 36 FPTP seats,each with a list of male and another list of female candidates and the voters choose one from each list. What could be simpler? Exactly the same could be done on the list with the list in two columns (M and F) for the voter to put a tick in each.

      I have no idea why this isn’t just done

    110. schrodingers cat says:

      ” … thats right, john finnie was never an snp msp, harvey wasnt one of the most effective proponents of indy during the ref… you need to wait a wee bit longer mr peffer before you try and change history….”

      the point i was making about finnie was not whether he should have resigned, but that you said you didnt trust the greens on indy….. finnie may well have spat the dummy out and not resigned but that isnt the point…. he supports indy just as much as you and I.

      this is the propaganda, which you seem to think is ok, by all means justify the voting position with any figures you like Mr Peffers, but claiming the greens are not pro indy isnt a reason. it was exactly this tact that kellys arguments are and were based on and it wasnt and still isnt true. he isnt a psephologist, kelly is a troll, pure and simple

      too bad, a large chunk of indy supporting groups just ceased to exist, you are damn right im angry about it.
      with regards insults… you give as good as you get

      Sandy says:
      Takes into account personal scruples…. well congrats sandy, we now have 60 unionists msps….their scruples are the focus, always were. not john finnies

    111. Roger Mexico

      Any proof to support that.
      Not everybody wants lots of Greens anyway so why should that be considered an unlimited good thing

      If ever SNP member and supporters had done both votes SNP the list vote would have matched the increase of the SNP vote on the FPTP and would have given the SNP another five or six MSPs

    112. Robert Peffers says:

      @Petra says: 8 May, 2016 at 2:30 pm:

      ” … MANY SNP members and supporters are in favour of Green policies, myself included, and if anything this constant assault on them may result in us losing SNP supporters. Losing them to the Green Party.”

      The reason is quite clear, Petra. The critics of the Greens, myself included, are not critical of their green policies. If truth be known many, like myself, were fighting for green policies as far back as the mid to late 1950s.

      Things like the start of the Hydro schemes were being criticised way back then as had been the start of the National Grid. Portobello coal-fired Power Station was still going back then as were many other coal-fired stations and there were other controversial matters – including nuclear power plants like the Windscale plant that suffered a nuclear disaster.

      The Green policies being criticised have little to do with actual Green matters. All political parties have a faction of Career Politicians who are in the party with a first priority of self-interest and self-promotion and bandwagons are jumped upon.

    113. call me dave says:

      Forgot to leave link:

      Anyone for tennis: 15mins from now.

      http://myp2p.ec/

    114. Disappointing and juvenile stiff from Lesley Riddoch. A lot of the relative newcomers to the independence process still don’t quite get it.

      However John Swinney dealt very firmly with the Greens in the first SNP admin and he is in a much stronger position to do so now

    115. louis.b.argyll says:

      Cheers c m d, maybe this time…

      If at first you don’t succeed..

      Keep fcuking trying…

    116. Valerie says:

      Cat still vomiting, I see. I know it’s a blow Rennie is still here, but that’s what it is.

      As for the little pro Indy groups not being here, give that a rest, Cat. They destroyed themselves with their overblown egos. Not for them the slog of policy and promotion. Naw, let’s just barge our way onto the stage.

      I’m not so sure they were pro Indy as pro me. A lot of their pronouncements were cack.

      No one interfered with them, they had unfettered access to the media, quite unbelievable, but no one was interested.

    117. Papko says:

      Good point Valerie , just why the the Looney left like Rise and Solidarity gets so much coverage is beyond me

      The Yes campaign was dominated by the far left , and the Yoons , were scared that there hard earned gains , were going to taxed off them to pay for the feckless and workshy .

      One thing that might erode the Yoon uncompromising stance, is the introduction of workfare .

      if they see the permanent unemployed , picking up litter by the side of the road , they may start to favor the SNP more , its a double edged sword though , and would go down like a lead balloon in Dundee .

    118. Ken500 says:

      @ Craig Murray is another commentator who critises the SNP and then complains when there isn’t a majority. Voters who don’t vote for an SNP candidate who they don’t like but support their policies and want Independence. Do they expect it to happen without full support, especially with the (external) forces lined up against. Tories start crowing and lying.

      Two steps forward, one step back. Maybe it will be a lesson in how not to get waylaid.

      The SNP and the Independence vote has increased.

    119. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      Yet another Peoples Front of Judea moment.

      Get a grip folks.

    120. Orri says:

      The touted detente putting all the unionists under the strategic leadership of Davidson would most probably result in a rupture within Labour if it was entered into. Dugdale has already dropped hints that she, herself, might be thinking of independence. Only her position as leader would prevent her doing so. She certainly hinted at it becoming a non party issue up to conscience within Labour.

      Davidson has already drawn off any hardline union over party support Labour had. The rest may be of a more pragmatic prove it’s worth it mindset. Certainly Dugdale acknowledged that Brexit might be a trigger for a change of direction within the party. Tying themselves to the Conservatives even on a short term basis might be the last straw for some of their MSPs.

      Thinking about it further. Would the Greens being part of a coalition with the SNP mean they wouldn’t get a question and their place be taken by the LDs? Also what happens if there’s a unified opposition, would Davidson get to ask all the questions?

    121. Albaman says:

      Sorry Rev,
      I’ve just jumped in here without reading all the postings, in a hurry just now, so no time, I’ve noticed that the B.B.C. in Scotland appears to have promoted Anas Sarwar to the Deputy Leader of the Scottish Labour Party, Eh?!, well that’s according to their on line news page.

    122. Valerie says:

      @Papko

      That’s easy, those newly fashioned groups got fab coverage because it was the Yoon press wet dream.

      Splitters shouting about how timid SNP were, targeting the SG, not targeting unionist parties. But Cat is all mournful they are blown out????

      Yeah, just what was needed, a lot of attention seeking radicals, professing to want Indy, with no coherent means, except to throw brickbats.

      I didn’t give them any attention then, so I don’t miss them.

    123. Glamaig says:

      Y’know, if we had a majority maybe we would have got even more complacent. This is going to sharpen us up.

      The Red Pawns are probably going to be hiding in their bunker for a while. That means the real enemy, the Tories are in full view, and you know what – we outnumber them 2 to 1! Rapid fire!

      Come on out Sir Edward Mountain, I know youre behind that grouse-butt! BLAM!

      I saw a big ‘Join the SNP’ billboard today in my neighbouring TORY constituency, they’ll just love that 🙂

    124. call me dave says:

      Nicola Sturgeon confirms intention to relaunch SNP’s Independence campaign:

      The article gets off to a good start: 🙂

      NICOLA Sturgeon has confirmed her intention to relaunch the SNP’s independence campaign in the summer despite being reduced to a minority in Holyrood… FGS!

      https://archive.is/er72Y

    125. Capella says:

      Nicola affirms that a second referendum is not off the table. Another chance to hear from Grin-teeth-and-temptation-Ruth and Anas Sarwar is in a difficult place.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-36242591

    126. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie
      Cat still vomiting, I see.
      every one a gem, they lang winter nichts must just fly past….

      I know it’s a blow Rennie is still here, but that’s what it is.

      correct, we failed to GOTV, thats why he won. perhaps if we had done some constituency polls we might have identified the short fall in what was the weakest snp constituency in the region.
      then again, had the region not voted green2 the 7th list seat would now be tory

      As for the little pro Indy groups not being here, give that a rest, Cat.

      What next Val, you gonna start on BfS, WFI? i thought we were trying to build a consensus, but they are only little idy groups so its ok to take a pop at them too?

      They destroyed themselves with their overblown egos. Not for them the slog of policy and promotion. Naw, let’s just barge our way onto the stage.

      rise and the greens do not have the monopoly on over blown egos. Frankly, i could give a flying proverbial what policies they have, or the snps policies either, such ideas are for the birds

      I’m not so sure they were pro Indy as pro me. A lot of their pronouncements were cack.

      and rise didnt put independence as the first line on their manifesto?

      No one interfered with them, they had unfettered access to the media, quite unbelievable, but no one was interested.

      Still better to elect Tories instead, eh?

      listen val, the argument was about tactical voting, the merits and sense in doing so, the policies of all indy parties are irrelevant, the point was to reduce the unionists representation, not an excuse for people to diss other indy groups. that serves no purpose

    127. K1 says:

      Alabaman, do you have a link for that?

    128. Dan Huil says:

      Good news from Nicola. Can’t wait for Violet Elizabeth Bott to start scweamin’ an’ scweamin’. Great fun.

    129. schrodingers cat says:

      I didn’t give them any attention then, so I don’t miss them.

      no, but you didnt need to pay them any attention, just not go out of your way along with others to destroy them

      keep it up, you dont like the greens either, if you destroy them too, we will all be replaced by a unionist coalition

      the indy movement isnt about what policies you or I prefer, it never was, they are irrelevent, it is about winning independence?

    130. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m hoping that this divisive article is designed to let everyone get it all out of their system, so we can get back to Indy say around the middle of this week. So here’s me getting it out of my system.

      Cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck cuck.
      Shit I typed a c rather than an f, oh well.

      I’m not forgiving the Sunday Herald, but McWhirter has an interesting piece today. His take is that the SNP will have to work harder. I agree.

      But at the end of the day, if Indy ref 2 is called for, 63 SNP = 6 Green = 69. Say minus 1 for PO = 68. That’s 68 for, up to 60 against. Resolution carried. Just do the Section 30 Order thing Cameron old chap, there’s a good lad. Or we’ll set Tank Commander on you!

    131. Douglas Guy says:

      Stu, you were pretty hostile to the Greens and them standing in Edinburgh Central letting Ruth Davidson in, but now that the real numbers are out there, it worked out really well for them.

      Lothian constituencies finished 6 SNP, 1 Con, 1 Lab, 1 LD and list, in order, Con, Green, Lab, Con, Lab, Con, Green

      If Alison Johnstone (Green) hadn’t stood in Edinburgh Central, Ruth Davidson (Con) wouldn’t have won the seat. Instead Alison Dickie (SNP) would have won it.

      The Lothian constituencies would then have finished 7 SNP, 1 Lab, 1 LD and list result in order would have been Con, Con, Green, Lab, Con, Lab, Con.

      i.e. Alison Dickie (SNP) would have been elected instead of Andy Wightman (Green).

      The way it worked out, the Greens got one more MSP than the LibDems and one less SNP got elected increasing the Scottish Green’s influence significantly. With the added bonus for them of a well known land reform campaigner who will grab far more attention for them than any of their other MSP’s except Patrick Harvie. Well played Greens. By accident.

    132. Dan Huil says:

      @yesindyref2 6:17pm

      Spot on. Time to call Dave’s bluff.

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      Apparently from senior SNP sources according to the SH, unlike the other parties, the SNP don’t have a postal vote policy or procedure. Which is pretty dumb.

      Also the SNP online system failed on election day making GOTV a bit of a shambles.

      Apparently too most of us new members are lazy and useless, preferring to spend all our time on the internet rather than GOTV.

      Which all goes to show that a lot of people are shooting their mouths off, and the sooner it all gets back to normal, the better.

    134. schrodingers cat says:

      Also the SNP online system failed on election day making GOTV a bit of a shambles.

      we already knew which constituencies had the weakest snp support. we should have targeted them

      the libdems have done this for years

    135. Roger Mexico says:

      Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Any proof to support that.

      Yes I’ve crunched the numbers. Take 10% off the SNP regional totals (except for Highland), add to the Green total and re-do the d’Hondt calculations (spreadsheets make this easier). It gives the Greens a list MSP in Central, North East and South (even 5% does those) and a second one in Glasgow.

      The Greens put alternate men and women on their lists and had four lists headed by men and four by women. So all the extra MSPs are female.

      I was being slightly naughty in that the seat in South does come at the expense of the SNP and those of us who were pointing out that this would happen weren’t advising switching on purely tactical grounds in South and Highland because those were the regions where there might be enough non-SNP constituencies for list seats to be possible.

      But the other three come from the Conservatives and not a single SNP list vote in those other six regions (751,770 of them by my reckoning) help elected an MSP. Obviously a bigger percentage would give you even more Green MSPs. 20% just in those six regions would give them another 9 seats (6 Con, 2 Lab, 1 LD)

      As to whether you wanted more Greens, well it depends whether you think Con or Lab are more likely to support SNP policies than Greens are. But it looks like the ‘Both Votes SNP’ campaign helped reduce the pro-Indy majority.

    136. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the ultimate answer to all this hoohah about tactical voting is – the electorate. And respect for the electorate. Not just the YES voters, but the NO voters who are still probably a slight majority.

      So if all the Greens had voted SNP on the list and we had 69 SNP MSPs, it would be a travesty, it would be false, it would be sticking two fingers up at the overall electorate.

      But if all the SNP had voted Green and we had 37 Green MSPs that too would be a travesty, just a far bigger one. It would be baring our backsides at the electorate and waggling them.

      In the end the electorate decided to give us 63 SNP MSPs and 6 Greens.

      And that’s correct, it’s what the electorate decided.

      If we don’t show respect to the electorate, we’ll never get above 50% YES.

    137. schrodingers cat says:

      it wasnt the new members or the activist which were the problem, they worked as hard as ever, the snp voters just didnt show up. the unionists in nef did

      you can lead a horse to water etc …

    138. Cal says:

      I don’t care who helps us to become an independent country – green, yellow, red, blue, Scottish, English, Chinese, Polish, Pakistani, lesbian, gay (and all points between)…. All I care about is finding a way to get the people holding us back out of our way so we can get on with our journey to being a normal country.

    139. Luigi says:

      Wot’s done is done. The election result could have been slightly better for the indy movement. It could have been a hell of a lot worse. Make no mistake, the tories have not hit a ceiling (as some imply) and they could have reaped havoc in the NE and rural constituencies if the campaign had run another week or so. These are strong NO voting areas, remember. The political fault lines are rearranging and the yoons are fighting back. We got off lightly and now we have time to fight back. Ruthie will soon be outed as a nasty piece of work.

      Following an initial disappointment, IMO the result is actually perfect for the indy movement for a number of reasons. The red tories have been trashed and the battle lines could not be clearer. The blue tories’ human shield of useful Labour idiots has been breached. All the media nonsense about a one-party state has been destroyed. We still have an indy majority (some green awkwardness perhaps but a small number of Labour MSPs could abstain or vote in favour of another referendum – if it came to that, which is currently unlikely anyway).

      There are many more points I won’t mention, but the bottom line is that there is still no majority for YES, so there is absolutely no point in pushing another referendum until Scotland is ready for it. A tory-led yoon resurgance was always on the cards if the Labour party collapsed, but this is the price we have to pay. IMO the centre-left is absolutely critical to achieving independence in Scotland and Labour (and any yoon influence) have to be removed from the left.

      When Scotland is ready for independence, Scotland will have independence. Nothing on earth can prevent it happening. When Scotland is ready……

    140. al urquhar says:

      Conan the Librarian @ 5:49

      “Get a grip” you say.

      Getta bloody grippin deed !!

      ITS THE JUDEAN PEEPULL’S FRONT

    141. Dan Huil says:

      I think being a minority government allows the SNP much more leeway to introduce more radical policies. If it fails it fails, no big deal, “we’re just a minority government”. Meanwhile Ruthie greets away in desperation. Her only “argument” is to repeat again and again her claim that we’re not allowed another referendum.

    142. Papadox says:

      @luigi 6:46pm
      Totally agree with you Luigi the Tory cover ie SLAB is now gone and the Tories are in the front line and very exposed with very little positive ammunition in their locker. Don’t think their policies are very appealing to the vast majority of Scotland.
      I believe they are at the upper edge of their support. So they will destroy themselves with direction from Londinium and the establishment. Davidson just does as she’s telt and the London Tory policies are toxic to the vast majority of Scotland. Let them come at us if they dare.

    143. Albaman says:

      Sorry folks the B.B.C. Scottish news web site, has just demoted Anas Sarwar, he’s now just a S.M.P., but if you can look at the sites archives you’ll see what I referred to.

    144. call me dave says:

      The Anas is in a difficult place right enough.

      It appears the sun don’t shine on his policies either, but he’s laying the ground work for the future here I think.

      Straws in the wind.

      https://archive.is/oECo8

      PS:
      Murray 1-1 and with new balls it seems! 🙂

    145. schrodingers cat says:

      the electorate. And respect for the electorate

      people have always voted tactically, whats the problem?
      you cant force people of course, but the people in shetland and orkney wanted a unionist representive rather than a nationalist, which is why they voted tactically. cf the results between 2015 and thursdays.

      there are 8 regions in scotland, why should we not create a system to enable those who support indy to maximise their vote?. it isnt obligatory to follow an agreed plan, but i dont see the problem of creating such a strategy anymore than i disagree with what shetland and orkney did. they still have a choice

    146. Valerie says:

      @Luigi

      I agree with all of that. I said unless we got a majority, I wasn’t going to the activist celebration on Saturday. I stuck to that because I’m still sorting my head out, and I want to try and say my piece positively in Branch or to our campaign manager.

      Our MSP got 60% of the vote share, but we have to have some hard talks about member apathy, and how we get over voter apathy.

      We have to change something to achieve our goal next year.

    147. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      Give it up. It happened, get over it.

      And certainly don’t involve me in tactical voting post-mortems, I’m for moving on, not uselesss divisive recriminations.

      My point was about Getting Out The Vote. The SNP online system failed which was a problem apparently.

    148. Ruby says:

      Ruth Davidson aka Miss Trunchbull says STOP TALKING ABOUT INDEPENDENCE!!!!

      Nicola (aka Miss Honey) says I will start campaign for Independence in the summer!:-)

    149. yesindyref2 says:

      @luigi
      Completely agree.

    150. Valerie says:

      @yesindyref2

      I was working with dozens of computer sheets on Thursday for GOTV, so I presume this is what you mean about a system going down?

      But I find that very worrying, because no campaign manager worth their salt would surely leave running these until 5th May?

      My sheets had all been pulled off on 1st May.

      I’m just trying to understand your info.

    151. yesindyref2 says:

      I think if the SNP had achieved an overall majority, many of the NO voters would have been thinking “oh no, another 5 years of the same old”, and switched off.

      Now it’s interesting for them, and perhaps their minds will be more open to new ideas.

    152. One_Scot says:

      Just saw the clip of Nicola sturgeon stating that InyRef2 is not off the table in this parliament.

      So basically everything is as it was, only difference being that the SNP vote has increased.

      Can’t really see a down side.

    153. Clootie says:

      …still seeing lots of posts about we need to be nice to the Greens. Like many other I like many of their polices. However I going to keep saying it – ” They split the vote!”

      I’m not against the Greens. I’m just sick of people demanding that the direction of travel be set before we even have a nation.

      The arrogance of these parties is breathtaking. Do they not realise the compromise many of us make to hold a United front. They assume their limited and restrictive arguement is more important than mine because I put one objective first – Independence.

      I have seen it argued that by needing their support it will push the SNP/SG further Green. Why should the rest of us be shaped by them?

      I will set down NO demands on the politics of a future Scotland. It will be the will of the people that shapes the first independent Holyrood. I will thereafter give my support to a party that best represents my views.

      It will not be Left enough for Rise, it will not be Green enough for Patrick, it will not be Right enough for Ruthie. However all indications are that it will be left of centre leading to a fairer society.
      As a nation WE can spend decades shaping our future but it will always be a compromise as expected in a democracy.

      To Green voters…you will see none of your major objectives achieved without an Independent Scotland.

    154. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2 at 6.42 and 7.19

      Yes, exactly.

      I’m enough of a non-democrat that I would have been briefly hugely amused if the unionists had been wiped out, but I do know really that while they attract approximately 40% of the electorate’s support, they deserve 40% of the seats.

      And that is what they got.

    155. yesindyref2 says:

      @valerie
      It was Tom Gordon in the Sunday Herald, so make what you can of that.

      “Postal votes are just something we’ve never really done,” said one SNP campaigner. “We’ve always gone for a Get Out The Vote (GOTV) operation on polling day instead.”

      But on polling day, Activate crashed for most of the morning, hampering the GOTV effort.

      “There’s a myth that the party’s operation is really wonderful,” said one senior member. “In many ways it’s actually very poor.”

      http://archive.is/lg5G2

    156. Kevin Evans says:

      This election shows that YES was not ready for indyref2 so I am happy with the result.

      In the 5 years of this parliament we will have more likely than not :-

      1 An other oil boom,
      2 Re election of a Tory Westminster government but this time with either osbourne or boris,
      3 More austerity and cuts,
      4 A widening gap between rich and poor,
      5 A proper alternative to using the pound with crypto currency’s being more widely used,
      6 Ruth davidsons consertatives in full view for Scotland to see,
      7 labour fragmenting into YES or NO.

      Add the slim possibility of leaving the EU (your a fool if you think the UK is going to vote out)

      I think over 5 years all that getting bedded into people’s mind set and daily lives will give YES the extra support needed to WIN indyref2.

    157. Big Jock says:

      Cookie truth behold we actually really don’t need the Greens. We had 64 msps last term and got everything through. We are going to give up presiding officer. So it’s as you are 63 becomes 64. Most of the time the opposition don’t all vote,sit on their hands or vote with the SNP. The media are in a lather about minority government, but it’s not a minority it’s effectively a working majority in practice.

      We only need the Greens for indi 2 and they would never vote against that as a collective. Harvie might ad he’s a wee egotistical maniac but the rest would rebel.

    158. Valerie says:

      @yesindyref2

      Many thanks, that’s helpful. 🙂

    159. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      For the member apathy bit, it doesn’t surprise me. Before the Ref I guess you could say that the 25,500 members were “member types”, i.e. interested in being part of a political party. After the Ref they got 90,000 new members, many perhaps previously non-aligned like me. Joined for Indy.

      Well, I saw the schedule for the first meeting and it was incredibly boring. Minutes, secretary’s report, blah blah, any other business. I went anyway, and that was it. Nice people, but no interesting discussion. Been to a couple of others but they’re boring too, and nothing about policies even, let alone Indy. Really it’s all them to us, not our points of view, with maybe one or two long-term members talking for about 10 minutes non-stop about something by which time it’s time to finish.

      But mostly it’s all about constituency business and fund-raising. Well, I expect many of the 90,000 like me want more than that, and we’re not getting it.

    160. crazycat says:

      @ Roger Mexico

      As to whether you wanted more Greens, well it depends whether you think Con or Lab are more likely to support SNP policies than Greens are. But it looks like the ‘Both Votes SNP’ campaign helped reduce the pro-Indy majority.

      It’s not just that. It also depends on who the candidates are (which not all voters will bother to find out, of course, let alone have the same opinion about).

      If what you suggest had happened, instead of 1 Green whom I would rather not have in the Parliament, there would be 4. In 3 of those cases, there were people further down the list whom I would have welcomed.

      Having voted Green in 2003 and 2007, I chose not to do so in 2011 because of their lead candidate (not the same one who stood this time). This time I also actively wanted a particular SNP list candidate to be elected.

      Also, as I have commented to yesindyref2, the unionists got the seats their support entitled them to. I’d prefer people to concentrate on trying to appeal to those supporters (which would also help independence) rather than imagining they can direct the way people vote without actually knowing the exact behaviour required in advance.

    161. Jimmy says:

      Cal,
      I read your blog about welcoming English, Chinese, Pakistani, and various European nationals to thependence cause.
      On election day I was a Conservative polling agent wearing my polling station badge and my Conservative party rosette, I was speaking to an SNP polling agent who told me there were too many English people in Scotland and the reason for lowering the height regulations for the police were because of the Chinese living in Scotland. It seems Chinese are smaller than Scots so the police had to lower the height to avoid breaching discrimination rules
      This polling agent finally told me that he will vote Leave in the EU referendum and he wasn’t worried about Nicola Sturgeon’s views on the subject because she only has onr vote

    162. One_Scot says:

      “Postal votes are just something we’ve never really done,”

      Really. Well I’m no expert, and I wouldn’t want to tell you how to do your job, but I’m guessing that might be something you might want to think about looking into.

    163. Craig P says:

      We are slagging off the Greens now but when Andy Wightman gets a law passed (maybe just in my dreams, but still) that bans non-Scottish domiciled UK citizens (i.e. people like David Cameron’s dad) from owning large tracts of the Highlands and Borders – a move that does not contravene EU law – then the Tory opposition will self-combust and we will be laughing our heads off.

    164. Tackety Beets says:

      Albaman & K1

      Ref Anas Sarwar

      I viewed Brewer’s Politics this am and thought same ,he introduced Sarwar a deputy leader.

      I just jumped to my Humax recording and Brewer actually introduced him as

      “Former MP & Deputy Leader of Scottish Labour and now an MSP”

      I had to listen again as it was yet again miss-leading. Some might say one of my regular Senior moments!

      The BBC are renowned in Scotland for accuracy , why did I ever doubt them.

      The clip will probably be on iPlayer it’s just after Nicola’s interview.

    165. Valerie says:

      @yesindyref2

      Well, no surprise, you have described my branch meetings.

      Us newbies are going to have to ruffle some feathers, because I’ve previously said I’m not happy, but I’m turning out for the donkey work.

      I suspect the ‘summer campaign’ is also some kind of recognition that they must engage better

      They KNOW the vast bulk want independence, and that spark needs feeding and tending.

    166. Roland Smith says:

      If we wanted gender balance with the Greens it would have helped if just a few people in the NE region voted Green on the list rather than SNP. Then we would have got another Green lady and we would not have got yet another Lib Dem. In fact if even more had gone for the Greens on the list in NE Scotland we would not have had the plethora of Tories who got in on the back of that list.
      If that had happened, instead of having to put up with loads of inaccurate headlines going on about a Tory revival we would be reading about how the pro Independence parties had an overwhelming mandate for another referendum sometime in the future.
      As it is we are dancing on the media pin of the SNP lost the election, and don’t have a mandate, even though that is palpably untrue.
      This is not the time for tribal politics on the Yes side when we should be concentrating on the win win of Labour losing and the Conservatives beating them.
      A lot can happen in the next few years that could move the majority towards independence, but not if we are seen as infighting in the movement, as is the lot of the current Labour and Conservative parties.

    167. Rock says:

      “But even we have to admit that it’d be an admirable statement of principle and integrity if the Greens put their money where their mouths are on the subject.”

      “Principle”?

      “Integrity”

      They certainly have plenty of that.

      They stood candidates against the SNP for the Westminster election and in constituencies on “principle” to let the most disgusting Tories to get in through the middle.

    168. Craig P says:

      But on polling day, Activate crashed for most of the morning,

      Damned convenient to the SNP’s enemies. Should we be getting the tinfoil hats out?

    169. Ruby says:

      Why did Any Wightman choose to stand in Edinburgh Central?

    170. yesindyref2 says:

      @crazycat
      I’d have got a laugh out of it, but yes, democratically it would have been wrong. In fact arguably, from a democratic point of view, UKIP with 2% should have had 2-3 MSPs.

      Mmm, let’s not go there.

    171. schrodingers cat says:

      I’m for moving on, not uselesss divisive recriminations.

      isnt that what this thread is about? read the article above.

    172. Flower of Scotland says:

      I got all my GOTV sheets last Wednesday night. Started Thurs. Finished Fri. No problem.

      Don’t what you’re going on about!

    173. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “Well I bloody care about this gobshite Greer!”

      Did you not know he was on the Greens’ list?

      You were battling for a list vote for the Greens on this site.

      schrodingers cat,

      “personally, i couldnt give a flying fuck about the greens, or the snp for that matter”

      Well you have been giving a lot for the Greens on this site.

    174. schrodingers cat says:

      ” They split the vote!”

      I’m not against the Greens. I’m just sick of people demanding that the direction of travel be set before we even have a nation.

      The arrogance of these parties is breathtaking. Do they not realise the compromise many of us make to hold a United front.

      what compromise? we have a united front now, the bad mouthing of smaller indy groups has caused them to cease existing.
      we will now run indyref2 without ric, hows yer united front doing?

      do i like listening to the whines of lefty socialists? not really, but i tholed it for the good of the unity of the indy movement

      i find articles like this very divisive but I realise the compromise many of us make to hold a United front.

    175. Cal says:

      Jimmy @7.42pm

      So Jimmy, are you with or against us? We sorely need a right wing party that supports independence. Think of the possibilities for our economy. We could transform it with the right policies. Sure it might be tough to begin with but just think what we could do in time! I don’t care where you come from or whether you’re left or right wing. I just want you to put your shoulder to the wheel. Most of the ex-English people living round here are pro-independence I guess because they are young with kids and want the best future for those kids. I know most of the expat English in Scotland are against us but they are retirees and set in their ways like most old people. No disrespect to our venerable independence supporting oldies on here of course.

    176. George Wood says:

      I agree with what Clootie said @7.25pm “They split the vote”

      I’m extremely angry with the Greens, since thanks to their selfishness I have Ruth the Tank Commander as my constituency MSP. No one from the Greens has apologized for that which speaks volumes about their commitment to a unified Yes movement.

      Greens are saying that it was the SNPs fault for not getting out the vote. Well who was it that was putting complacency into SNP voters minds by saying that a majority was in the bag- it was the Greens of course.

      It is the Greens and the tiny left wing gruops that are trying to split the Yes movement and we should be making it plain they are not welcome if that is their aim.

    177. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      In full PR systems there’s usually a threshold for representation, and I think it tends to be more than 2-3%!

      So we’d be safe from UKIP.

    178. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_threshold

      Looks like only Denmark and the Netherlands (in Europe) would have let UKIP in.

    179. Roger Mexico says:

      @ crazycat

      No I appreciate that that informed voters will want to make choices based on all sorts of factors to do with candidates, policies and so on. I also take Indyref2’s point (indeed have mentioned it elsewhere) that there is a moral argument that people shouldn’t game the system but let it do what it was intended – in other words the unionist Parties deserve those seats for their support.

      What concerned me about the ‘Both Votes SNP’ campaigning is that voters were actually being dissuaded from voting tactically or indeed according to their inclinations by the assurance that voting SNP was the only ‘safe’ option and their votes wouldn’t be wasted. In fact if many people were persuaded by that then it led to the opposite of what they intended – more Tories were elected instead of Greens or SNP.

      All tactical voting is a gamble, but so is not tactical voting as well if your vote could have kept out a candidate you dislike.

    180. yesindyref2 says:

      @Valerie
      Glad to know it’s your branch too. Well, not glad, sad, but you know what I mean!

      I did email about the Agenda being boring, and was told there’s be more for YES in future, but it never happended. Some films about fracking was about it, which isn’t something I’m into.

      Tactics, strategy, wider YES co-operation? Nada, zilch.

      If the MSPs and candidates want us to work harder, they need to as well – try talking with us or answering a couple of emails, that would help. And a genuine online SNP forum.

      Reminds me of the National Conversation online where the Ministers would write their piece in the “forums”, people like me would make comments below the line, but not a dickie bird from the Ministers, they were stuck up in their ivory towers, ready to lay down the next piece of wisdom.

      And if a 40 year pro-indy supporter thinks that, what would the 55.3% who voted NO?

    181. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “im saying save your criticism for the unionists.”

      Have you told that to Patrick Harvey?

      Why were the Greens not chasing Tory, Labour and Lib Dem votes instead of cowardly duping SNP supporters for the list vote?

      Patrick Harvey and the Greens are more interested in themselves than in an independent Scotland.

    182. Iain More says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 7:31 pm

      @valerie
      It was Tom Gordon in the Sunday Herald, so make what you can of that.

      “ “Postal votes are just something we’ve never really done,” said one SNP campaigner. “We’ve always gone for a Get Out The Vote (GOTV) operation on polling day instead.”

      But on polling day, Activate crashed for most of the morning, hampering the GOTV effort.

      “There’s a myth that the party’s operation is really wonderful,” said one senior member. “In many ways it’s actually very poor.” ”

      I wouldn’t trust anything that worm Tom Gordon writes. I got a PV application form from the SNP 6 weeks before the vote.

      It sounds like the usual Brit Nat Press and Media crap I reckon and the use of an unnamed source the weel kent unnamed campaigner and another unnamed so called senior member, Aye Right!

    183. Tackety Beets says:

      Time to cool our jets, indy Ref2 is Jist roon e Neuk and plenty light shining doon the tunnel.

      I had to chuckle today whilst discussing the current situation with my mid 80s mother, she suddenly retorted
      “Faas voting for that gype o a lassie aat Labour, she’s aat feel she’ll be voting wi the Torys ageen!”

      You will appreciate she may not fully understand the implications of D’hont system but she kens a daft budgie when she sees one.

      Cynically I was hoping Nicola’s first appearance On TV since election would have her say
      “Since the BBC are revelling in the massive success of the Tory party the SNP as the listening party will need to reconsider some aspects. Perhalps we should have all those in the 40% tax bracket paying £20 per prescription and same as England for Uni fees. After all listening to the BBC etc there is a huge desire by voters for these policies”

      I would assume with the soon to be devolved Tax controls it would actually be fairly easy to assertain who is in the 40% tax bracket ?

      Please note I am not advocating or promoting Tory policies. My point is, all be it perhalps too late, but we need to remind voters what the true implications on voting Tory can / does mean.

      Spent most of Friday & Sat feel a bit low ?
      Reflecting SNP had more votes than ever , that is more people giving them support and the thumbs up to govern AS THEY SEE FIT !

      So let’s just cool our jets and let them get on with it . They want Indy Ref 2 just as much as us !

    184. Iain More says:

      Ruby says:
      8 May, 2016 at 7:52 pm

      “Why did Any Wightman choose to stand in Edinburgh Central?”

      He didn’t, it was the Greens “dual leader” Alison Johnston that stood. Wightman was only on the list.

    185. yesindyref2 says:

      @Roger Mexico
      I think that’s a bit of the case of “they started it”, much as I hate that. The word went out that a vote for the SNP on the list was wasted and could let Unionists in, and we countered it. In fact Mhairi Black in the SH asserted that a vote on the list for the other pro-indy parties could let Unionists in, and I contradicted that as well. Neither is right, not on the basis of dodgy opinion polls and predictions that can be totally wrong, and of course neither is write in a proper democracy sense.

      Perhaps I shouldn’t point out that with 49.4% of the vote, the pro-indy parties got 53.5% of the seats …

    186. schrodingers cat says:

      “im saying save your criticism for the unionists.”

      Have you told that to Patrick Harvey?

      i tell this to all indy supporters, green, red blue, what ever

      instead of cowardly duping…… go fukc yersel’ rock

    187. yesindyref2 says:

      Standard item on any SNP branch meeting agenda should be “Have your say”.

    188. Kirsty says:

      I’ve been really concerned about the amount of ego on display over recent weeks and days from some people. None of us have all the answers, none of us is psychic and none of us have a right to bewail how other people choose to vote. Some people have really been allowing their tempers to get the better of them and it is very off-putting to a lot of people. Please keep that in mind when you’re shouting down other parties and other people – Labour did it for years and look what’s happened to them. It really shouldn’t be a model that anyone who cares about independence wants to follow. We still have a lot of convincing to do if we’re ever going to achieve independence. Sadly, some of the behaviour over recent weeks from supposed independence supporters is only going to convince a lot of people not to bother at all.

    189. Robert Peffers says:

      @louis.b.argyll says: 8 May, 2016 at 4:07 pm:

      Hello, Robert P… Had a spat with the cat myself a good while back..the scars healed though.

      When it comes to wounds from internet abuse, Louis.b. I am immune and don’t scar easily. I’ve been attacked by some far larger felines than this one. I don’t take offence in any case.

      I was much more intent upon the defence of others being savaged by the bad tempered and totally out of order feline. I could, but will not, quote some actions by the Green Brigade that have set the best interests of Scotland back, in some cases for years.

      Many of that ilk seem to think that Scotland’s Highlands and Uplands have always been the barren wasteland they are at present. This is not so. There is hardly a square inch of Scotland’s landscape that is not man made and deliberately man made by the Establishment in Britain’s South.

      They saw Scotland, and the Highlands and Uplands in particular, as a threat to England and determined to suppress the way of life of both areas. A walk up most Highland Glens will show the remnants of a once far more populated country.

      Remember also that it was a Westminster idea to take away from Glasgow the threat of Glasgow becoming the first city of the British Empire.

      Look around you. See the many Glasgow overspill areas all over Scotland and as far away as Corby in England.

      Thatcher’s suppression of Scottish industry was far from being the only Westminster engineered scheme to disempower Scotland. Our history is full of such actions and their attacks are not by any means over yet.

    190. Robert Louis says:

      You know, if we want independence, the worst, the very worst thing we can do is continue whinging on about tactical voting and split votes and all that. It happened. The Rev was right, but the past is the past.

      It is clear that several sources are willfully trying to feed the bad feelings, rather than be constructive.

      Let’s be smart. The SNP have just had their biggest ever vote, their is a pro independence majority in the Parliament, and battle lines have been drawn. We are now, right here on 8th May, 2016 light years further on in the fight for independence. Do not let a select few have their way, creating dissent.

      Despite their bluster, London is sh*t scared of the independence movement and the SNP. The ball is firmly in our court. Ours to play with. Let’s not let a few morons f*ck it up for us.

    191. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, must be about time for NCN to make an appearance, all concern and listen to me. I wonder who he/she/it is going to pick on tonite?

    192. Tinto Chiel says:

      These recriminations for a minor setback are unwise.

      The SNP will be able to push through their manifesto because they are excellent strategists. Once the PO position has been resolved the position re minority will be even better.

      The Greens have the chance to confirm their commitment to independence, so let’s give them their chance.

      Ruthie Tank-Straddler will be systematically demolished by the FM. I would hate to be in the latter’s position, but she’s probably too full of herself to realise this. Expensive speech writers from Londinium ain’t going to do it: Ruthie ain’t going to cut it in the cut and thrust.

      To me, the glaring obstacle in our path to independence is the BBC. The parliament will take care of itself, but unless there is some plan by the SNP to counter the bile and lies of Pacific Quay, independence is going to be delayed.

      I keep asking myself, “How do we defeat them?” and I still don’t have any answers. Mind you, I find it impossible to think that all the creative and imaginative people on our side cannot come up with a strategy. There are posters on here with experience of the Byzantine ways of Vichy Vision, too.

      I may be naïve, but if we could crack this, the dam would burst.

      Any ideas? It’s a big question.

    193. @Kevin Evans 7.32

      Great post mate.

      I’ve been catching up on this thread and getting ever more depressed at the ‘Judean People’s Front’ animus dividing us to conquer us. Loved your post. Keep calm and ceilidh on people.

    194. Robert Louis says:

      I am assuming somebody else has already posted this, but here is what the FM has said in an interview regarding independence.

      I don’t think any of us should feel down.

      http://archive.is/er72Y

      This summer is about to get interesting.

    195. Luiginhi646 says:

      IMO we have to be very thankful for the political skills of Nicola Sturgeon. It was a difficult job to balance between two powerful opposing forces: The aspirations of the independence campaign and the referendum phobia of the yoon SNP voters in rural areas. Some ground was lost to the latter, but by and large she pulled it off. With Ruthie boldly going for it and the backing of the media, there was a real possibility of a really big ‘tory’ swing, but thanks to Nicola’s political savy, some big names in the rural areas (eg Swinney, Lochhead etc) and the incumbencey effect, the damage was limited.

      Labour, by contrast, were sitting ducks. Blissfully unaware of the danger, or uncertain exactly how to deal with it, the trap was sprun and they had nowhere to go.

      Thank goodness we have excellent politicians on our side.

    196. call me dave says:

      Macwhirter

      https://archive.is/C4AEy

    197. One_Scot says:

      Robert Louis, well said Sir.

    198. Croompenstein says:

      My Gers supporting workmates trying to wind me up saying the union has prevailed, sorry guys but the tories just don’t care..
      I wonder how our stalwart unionists down Edmiston Drive think about their yoon brethren in Lancs referring to them as an overseas club… must sting…

      “The FIFA situation where a Scottish club – an overseas club – can come to Accrington, a club that turns over £1.5m, and walk away with £1.5m of our assets for next to nothing is a joke.”

      http://tinyurl.com/za8qe5c

    199. Tinto Chiel says:

      Latter should be former.

      Zut alors!

      And Robert Peffers, quite right about highland glens and the attack on Glasgow’s status.

      At Union, Scotland’s population was about a million, England, with Wales, about five.

      What is it now? Ah, that Union Dividend.

    200. Looks like the `comedian` Limmy or Daft Limmy is having a go at Wings over Scotland and its readers,

      “I’m enjoying winding up ex pats like the Wings of Scotland guy and his followers, by telling them that Scotland doesn’t concern them.”

      “That Wings Over Scotland guy having a go at everybody cos the SNP didnae get a majority. Cunt stays in Bath. Stay out of Scotland’s affairs.”

      “I got what I was after. SNP minority, relying on Greens.”

      he has almost 200,000 followers on his twitter site,

      don`t really know who he is as i do not watch much tv but i think he swears a lot like Connolly did 40 years ago.

    201. Glamaig says:

      @yesindyref2

      I’m happy to let the old hands run the show. Theyve been doing it for years with great success. Actually Im not much into talking shops. Campaigning is where the action is and its great fun too. You meet people, bond with a team and make friends, get to know the constituency.

      It was a new experience for me and its really rewarding. Works off some of the frustration of the Indyref which is still there, and Im making up for decades of not being involved. I wish I had been in it from the beginning. Ive got huge respect for those old hands, theyve been through the mill of years of being shouted at abused and they stuck at it. Because they did, we are where we are today.

      You know whats best? The houses with the saltires, the people that greet you with bright eyes, smiles and thumbs ups. Theres ALOT of them, and theyre not going away.

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      OK. Pros with this election result for the summer push for Indy.

      1). It’s not just the SNP now, they’re a minority government. It’s SNP and Greens putting their policies for what their party would do in Indy Scotland.

      2). Scotland is not a one-party state.

      3). Dear Leader is Dear Leader of a democratic minority Gov so isn’t Dear Leader..

      4). The SNP minority Gov are going to have to work harder.

      5). The SNP can no longer afford to look or be arrogant.

      6). Perhaps more attention will be paid to what the NO voters have concerns about, now the SNP have shown themselves not to be infallible.

      7). The anti-SNP mob are going to look foolish, but not just in our eyes.

      8). Something like that

      8). More of the same

      10). What are Labour going to do?

    203. Robert Louis says:

      Call me Dave at 9.00pm

      That piece by MacWhirter is really rather good. I don’t always agree with him, but in this, he talks an awful lot of sense.

      I actually saw him live in Edinburgh, at one of those podcasty things, in the last few weeks of the referendum, with Greg Moodie and Bateman.

      It just so happens I have just started reading his book disunited kingdom – it has taken this long for me to get over the result. I still cannot envisage reading Salmond’s book (although I would like to), just too upsetting.

    204. louis.b.argyll says:

      Limey..like Izzard, he was once funny, now sad, increasingly irrelevant.

    205. Croompenstein says:

      @Scot Finlayson –

      don`t really know who he is as i do not watch much tv but i think he swears a lot like Connolly did 40 years ago

      Scot, he is to comedy what Loki is to rap.. 🙂

    206. louis.b.argyll says:

      Limey? Limmey? .like Izzard, he was once funny, now sad, increasingly irrelevant.

    207. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can people please exercise their minds, find a fresh pejorative for the whole ‘split-left’ phenomenon and stop using the ‘Judean People’s Front’ gag? It stopped being ‘funny’ approx thirty years ago and is really fucking boring.

    208. Glamaig says:

      @Scot Finlayson 9:06

      Cunt stays in Bath. Stay out of Scotland’s affairs.

      The answer to that is, ‘David Cameron, cunt stays in London. Stay out of Scotland’s affairs’. Maybe if he stayed out of Scotland’s affairs, so would the ‘cunt in Bath’.

    209. louis.b.argyll says:

      I disagree, I can’t find ANYTHING insightful or original in translation in what Mcwhirter says in article.

      Chewed up, regurgitated. Same old same old.

      Something for everyone, nothing to actually say, except about other’s perceptions.

    210. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill says: 8 May, 2016 at 5:08 pm:

      “Gender balance is dead easy … I have no idea why this isn’t just done”
      #
      I have, Dave. It is because doing so is selecting candidates by their gender instead of by their political capabilities.

      I don’t give a damn whether they are female, hermaphrodite, male, transgender or neutered. I don’t want to bed them or marry them – I want them to look after my political interests.

    211. keaton says:

      @Joemcg:

      The bottom line is if the greens did not exist or stand candidates we would have had a majority and the yoons would not be doing somersaults now. That’s a fact.

      That isn’t actually a fact.

      Also, “we” do have a majority. Still, damn those Greens for existing.

    212. schrodingers cat says:

      I could, but will not, quote some actions by the Green Brigade

      but im not the green brigade, never have been. just snp for 35 years arguing for independence and trying to stop the movement from splitting

      you may not like the greens, or bmws, the headlights must be too close the gither or summat, but if this is what the snp has become, a bunch of boring old farts, sitting around insulting other indy groups to the extent of their demise then the snp can fucking ram it too

    213. crazycat says:

      @ Roger Mexico

      All tactical voting is a gamble, but so is not tactical voting as well if your vote could have kept out a candidate you dislike.

      Indeed. I have never gambled. That is why, in every election since October 1974 and every referendum since 1975, I have voted for the outcome I wanted, regardless of the chance of its happening.

      I realize others may like to live more dangerously 🙂 .

    214. One_Scot says:

      The more you think about it, the more obvious it becomes, the only way ‘Scottish’ Labour can possibly survive is by coming out for Independence.

    215. Ruby says:

      Iain More says:
      8 May, 2016 at 8:30 pm

      Ruby says:
      8 May, 2016 at 7:52 pm

      “Why did Any Wightman choose to stand in Edinburgh Central?”

      He didn’t, it was the Greens “dual leader” Alison Johnston that stood. Wightman was only on the list.

      Ruby replies

      Cheers!

      Why did Alison Johnston choose Edinburgh Central?

    216. Paula Rose says:

      I can see I’m going to have to get my whip out and start licking it about – calm down folks.

    217. schrodingers cat says:

      limmy supporter rise, you remember that group ric that wos and sgp just destroyed.. bravo

      maybe the greens should just oppose every budget, by the snp or by a subsequent unionist coalition…eventually sp16 will be dissolved and we can do this all over again? that way the snp can put a definitive commitment to indyref2 and win an indesputable democratic mandate?

      keep insulting the greens and maybe they will tell you to fuck off 🙂 looking at the comments on this thread i wouldnt blame them, would you?

    218. Robert Louis says:

      Paula Rose at 930pm

      “I can see I’m going to have to get my whip out and start licking it about…”

      So now it get interesting 🙂

    219. schrodingers cat says:

      Why did Alison Johnston choose Edinburgh Central?

      i wish she had not, so do the greens, no one expected ruth to win, not even her.

      the reason she stood was because of the absence of an electoral strategy, brought about by too many in the indy movement intent on a pissing contest.

      as i said, it didnt need to be like this

    220. Rock says:

      schrodingers cat,

      “i find articles like this very divisive but I realise the compromise many of us make to hold a United front.”

      schrodingers cat,

      “go fukc yersel’ rock”

      If you find WOS articles “divisive”, shouldn’t you be the one to -off?

      And take your compromises with you?

      There cannot be a united front as long as the Greens and RISE, both heavily promoted by The National, put party politics and personal egos before Scottish independence.

    221. schrodingers cat says:

      whats wrong folks, cat got yer tongues?

      i think the idea of bringing down the snp sp16 and a forcing a re run of the election has many commendable aims, when the moment is right the greens could do this at the request of the snp?

      why not? it would undermine ruthies position?

      campaign for indyref2, win a democratic mandate while the yoons still think they have beaten the indy movement

    222. heedtracker says:

      call me dave says:
      8 May, 2016 at 9:00 pm
      Macwhirter

      Dont think Mcwhirter is very keen on, well, us YESers,

      “In the early hours, some embittered nationalists claimed that the “vanity” of Patrick Harvie and the Scottish Greens had killed hopes of an early independence referendum by denying the SNP another overall majority. This was a curiously defeatist approach and very much contrary to the spirit of the cross-party Yes campaign.

      We’ll never know but would those Green 4000+ Edinburgh votes have gone SNP or not tory Tankgirl?

      Old Mcwhirter really likes the Greens though. Funny that. DONT scrap Airtransport taxation vile separatists, its NOT Green.

      How many 28 EU countries have APD Scottish Greens? 6 and all of them much less than teamGB. BOOO say Greens, we’re the Green blockers, we’re going to block you, fellow vile seps.

      Gees a fucking break teamGB hackdom.

    223. There were 34 female Green candidates out of 66 candidates – over 50%. So what Patrick Harvie said was absolutely true. Check it yourself.

      https://greens.scot/team/2016-full-candidate-list

      You’re attacking him and his party out of misplaced anger and disappointment that the SNP didn’t get an overall majority – and doing so when the SNP will be reliant on the Greens to get some of its policies though – and hve to persuade Green MSPs to back another referendum if it wants to call one.

      Neither based on facts, nor wise.

      The SNP were warned many of their list votes would be wasted by voting SNP 1+2 in a lot of regions – and they were – 120,000 list votes for the SNP in Central Scotland, not one MSP elected as they’d won far more constituency seats than their share of the vote on the first vote.

    224. Rock says:

      Ian Brotherhood,

      “It stopped being ‘funny’ approx thirty years ago and is really fucking boring.”

      If only they would have learnt in the last thirty years that they have always been exploited by the establishment.

      They were just exploited, above all by The National, to try to reduce the SNP vote, although luckily they failed.

    225. Robert Peffers says:

      @Glamaig says: 8 May, 2016 at 6:01 pm:

      ” … That means the real enemy, the Tories are in full view, and you know what – we outnumber them 2 to 1!”

      When is it going to get through to the average YESSERS that, “The Enemy”, is in fact the, “Westminster Establishment”, and it always has been?

      No matter what they call themselves they are all parts of the same, “Unionist Establishment”. They are, like any other big family in that they will fight among themselves but if the family is under attack they will always close ranks against the outsider attackers.

      All this claptrap of, “Scottish Labour”, “Scottish Conservative”, and, “Scottish LibDems”, is nothing more than flimflam. They are all parts of, “The English Kingdom Establishment”, headed by the Royal Person and the aristocracy who are descended from the original immigrant Germanic Tribes and still sit in the HOL.

      “The Establishment”, also includes the elite Educational Establishments, the Christian Churches, Civil Service, Security Services, Armed Forces top leaders and the financial sector. It also includes such as the Loyal Orange Order and the English Police Forces, (in particular the Metropolitan Police Force).

      The Establishment’s sticky fingers extend into every facet of United Kingdom life.

      The Tory Party are just one little part of the visible full Establishment and most of the Establishment is anonymous.

      Note that every one of those mentioned above were in there rooting for NO in the referendum.

    226. Rock says:

      Paula Rose,

      “I can see I’m going to have to get my whip out and start licking it about – calm down folks.”

      As an “ex Green” how do you feel about the Greens’ “success”?

    227. Kirsty says:

      schrodingers cat:

      For God’s sake – you’ve practically taken over this whole thread talking shit about other people and parties. How many people who disagree with you have you told to ‘fuck off’ so far on here today now? Enough! You are the problem here. Go and have your hissy fit in private, PLEASE, before you cause more damage. This is far from the first time that you’ve ranted and raved on one of these threads – you did the same not long back with some SSP members that went on for about 5,000 bloody pages. You were also incredibly arrogant and belligerent about getting people to vote the way YOU wanted them to before the election. I can’t imagine how many people are reading your comments and just turning off completely to independence.

      If you’ve been working for independence for 35 years like you say, then please join the rest of us who just want to keep doing our best to convince people that independence is the best thing for everyone in Scotland. And do that respectfully and kindly, whilst practicing what we preach which is a belief in greater democracy for Scotland. Please stop it with your bad tempered, ‘my way or the highway’ posts; you’re making yourself look like an agent provocateur.

    228. Cuilean says:

      Could everyone please just leave the Cat alone, now?

      She/He seems genuinely hurting and perhaps depressed and this is worrying.

      I don’t want anyone to be in danger or take comments too much to heart. So can we all just think about that please.

      Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

    229. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Rock making comments about comments about other comments being boring?

      That’s ‘funny’.

      ‘Oh, won’t you stop yer ticklin, Rock’

    230. Ruby says:

      If you considered Westminster as being male and Holyrood as being female would you agree that something needs to be done re gender balance?

      I think it was Joan MacAlpine who put forward the idea that Scotland was like the abused woman or something similar and at the time that got me thinking.

      Mr Westminster is the boss and he makes the rules & holds the purse strings. Scottish Nationalists want to be liberated women making their own rules & having their own credit card the Unionists are happy to be the Stepford Wives who stay at home wearing a pinny and waiting for Mr Westminster to get home so that they can welcome him at the door with a cocktail and ask him if he’s had a hard day at the office then serve him a home cooked meal which they’ve spent the entire day preparing. They know their place! Their favourite tune is ‘Stand By Your Man’

    231. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Kirsty said.

    232. heedtracker says:

      Duncan McFarlane says:

      and doing so when the SNP will be reliant on the Greens to get some of its policies though – and hve to persuade Green MSPs to back another referendum if it wants to call one”

      There it is! Green agenda far more important than backing ref2 Anyway and also, its unlikely threatening us will make much of an impact but while youre here, what are the actual Scottish Greens plans for the new Green world we’re not allowed to talk back at? And wishy washy stuff either. Give us a policy, ban cars, etc

      Old McWhirter of The Herald’s a Green fan but what does it all mean Duncan?

      “Police Scotland is a monster threatening civil liberties; the council tax freeze has outstayed its welcome; social care is being squeezed; and the SNP is all over he place on fracking, suppressing debate at conference and trying to look both ways on fossil fuels.”

      The NOT Scots offshore oil and gas industry has got nothing to do with Scotland or Holyrood whatsoever, so what’s the beef with Mcwhirter and his SNP trying to look both ways on fossil fuels?

      It is a biggy so have it Green Duncan!

    233. crazycat says:

      @ Duncan McFarlane

      No-one is suggesting that what Patrick Harvie said is untrue.

      What is being pointed out is this:

      If he is really so put out that the electorate, distributed among 8 regions and not able to affect each other’s behaviour, voted in such a way that the Green contingent is nearly as gender-unbalanced as it is possible to be, then the system allows him to do something about it.

      That something is for 2 of the men to resign, so that they are automatically replaced by 2 women.

      I’m not convinced this is a serious suggestion, but it serves to highlight the fact that gender-balancing candidates in an election only results in a gender-balanced parliament if the electorate, entirely fortuitously and inadvertently, “co-operates”.

    234. Bob Mack says:

      The man who insists on moving on from useless recriminations spends all night creating them. Have a drink and chill CAT.

    235. Iain More says:

      What is done is done. Moving on quickly now.

      Is there anybody working on a written Constitution for an Independent Scotland?

    236. schrodingers cat says:

      Kirsty
      not everyone shares your opinion on this thread either
      it wasnt me who was bad mouthing the greens, wos was.

      a lot of indy supporters dont like this type of article and comments either

      my way is the way of harmony, one where cheap digs at other indy supporting groups is seen as unacceptable, why should i not argue for this?

      5000 pages. please, dont exagerate. if you remember the thread then you will know that i am at least consistent

    237. Ken500 says:

      So ‘the SNP voters didn’t show up’. Just a 1million of them and nearly 1Million 2nd votes.

      The Greens 1300 Constituency votes. 150,000 2nd votes and 6 MSP’s 160,000. The SNP proportionally got 400,000 but proportionately no representation.

      It is because SNP give the (2) list vote to other Parties that they did not win a larger majority.

      Exactly how is Andy Wightman or anyone else is going to get the SNP or any other Party to pass a Law that Cameron’s father in law or anyone else can’t own land in Scotland. Exactly how is that going to work. Naive beyond belief.

      Will Westminster be able to pass a Law that anyone Scottish can’t buy land in England? Or anywhere else. Or People from Scotland can’t buy land in Spain, Portugal etc. Or dictate how much land to which anyone is entitled. A Nazi system to confiscate possessions etc. They tried it in Russia, Cuba, SA and other places. It doesn’t work and people end up starving.

      If anyone believes that nonsense, is beyond belief. A total con. A 60% tax rate. That is laughable. Shut down the Oil & Gas sector. (Without an alternative). Losing thousands of jobs.

      The majority of people in the NE would never vote Green having been subjected to their ‘campaigns’ wasting £Million of public money being funded by Landowners to make the majority’s lives more difficult. Reneging on all their ‘Green’ policies. In the Tories pockets.

    238. Loyalist says:

      On a beautiful spring day, driving through Anniesland, I passed the digital advertising hoarding on Great Western Road. Already gone – the both votes SNP ad. In its place: For a better Scotland, join the SNP.

      Election over, new campaigns come into sight. Europe, local government elections – and the small mater of how to ‘derisk’ independence for 400,000 No voters from 2014.

    239. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 9:38 pm

      Why did Alison Johnston choose Edinburgh Central?

      i wish she had not, so do the greens, no one expected ruth to win, not even her.

      Ruby replies

      I thought perhaps they had chosen Central Edinburgh because of the high number of students in the area.

      I just wonder if these Green voters if they are students from the RUK if they would have voted SNP instead of Green.

      A lot of people did expect Ruth to do well due to her very high profile etc etc.

      I reckon the Tories did a lot of research before deciding Ruth should stand in Central Edinburgh and I was just wondering if the Greens did similar research.

    240. @headtracker – OMG the Greens aren’t identical to the SNP? What a crime! The Green party was not set up for the sole or main purpose of independence. That is not a secret nor anything they have hidden from anyone. The majority of Green party members ( not all of them) were and are in favour of independence, and as a result their policy is to campaign for it if there’s another referendum (it was in their manifesto for these Scottish Parliament elections), but it’s not their main policy or number one priority the way it is for the SNP.

      It’s a means to an end for them , not the end in itself it is for much of the SNP.

      Just as the SNP’s main policy is not protecting the environment, nor social justice, nor stopping benefit cuts. The SNP even includes former tories like Tasmina Ahmed Sheik MP – one of the 56, because the only real requirement to be in the SNP is to believe in independence. Every other policy is negotiable and different SNP members have different views on each.

    241. heedtracker says:

      a lot of indy supporters dont like this type of article and comments either

      Just reading Mawhirter stuff about how awful the SNP is but even back in Jan, he was raging at the oncoming landslide of 73 SNP majority last week. He goes on and on and on about it for months, really detests the upcoming complacent 73 SNP MSPs.

      Id say Macwhirter and the rest of UK hackdom played a blinder in their second vote Green or RISE campaign though. Hope Mcwhiter’s happy now. He seems to be, apart from SLab’s ongoing slide into irrelevance. Far right torygraph Fraser Nelson and the BBC, say its the end for the SNP now too. Greens say be nice to us or we wont let you have ref2

      So all in all, its gone a bit mad in Scotland.

    242. schrodingers cat says:

      ruby
      ruth has the backing of a tory election engine which is far larger than a small party like the greens

      not to defend them, they should not have stood any candidates in any constituencies, like rise and solidarity

      then again, rise and solidarity, and the greens should not have stood candidates on the list in south or highland regions

      what was missing was an electoral strategy based on region by region

      that is why we failed

      this is the point i have been making consitently

      btw kirsty plenty people turned of to indy, but not just because of my comments,

      RIC was a good small indy party during the ref, i didnt agree with their ideas or policies, but it saddens me they are now gone. why shouldnt i say this?

    243. Ken500 says:

      ‘They got far more of their share of the constituency votes’. No they didn’t. How can anyone get far more than their share of the constituency votes. Those are the votes which went unrepresented. You get or you don’t. You win or you lose. The first vote should carry the most weight. It’s not a game of chance. it’s an election. If votes are going unrepresented. it is a problem with the system not with the voters choice. Or there should be a higher number of constituency seats. Over a majority of the total. So voters know directly for whom they are voting. Without having to 2nd guess a list seat.

    244. Paula Rose says:

      Yippee it’s all kicking off – new readers take note, we do this sort of stuff – pile in and enjoy.

    245. Effijy says:

      Please sign this well established petition against BBC Political Bias.
      Only 100,000 signatures will result in a Public Inquiry. We now have 89,225 with our next landmark 90,000 soon to be reached.

      If you know a Fellow in Portobello, or have a Pal in Funchal, or even a Contact in Sarawak, Please ask them to sign and post it on their social media pages.

      https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/independent-enquiry-into-bbc-bias-regards-scottish-independence-referendum

    246. Paula Rose says:

      Rock Honey – chill out love.

    247. schrodingers cat says:

      Ken500 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 10:15 pm
      So ‘the SNP voters didn’t show up’. Just a 1million of them and nearly 1Million 2nd votes.

      turnout from 2015 ge
      snp 1,454,436
      slab 707,147
      tory 434,097
      lib 219,675
      yoons 1,364,919

      turnout from 2016 he
      snp 1,059,897
      lab 514,261
      tory 501,844
      lib 178,238
      yoons 1,194,343

      yoons down 150k from ge result
      snp down 400k from ge result

      it didnt matter so much in constituencies like say glenrothes where they won in 2015 with 66% of the vote, but in nef it did

      you were saying ken?

    248. carjamtic says:

      Self Harming is never justified and it’s been around a lot longer than the internet.

      It is what the bullies thrive on,subjugated,angry,individuals,finger pointing at anyone/everyone,but not the actual bullies that are the London Elite or their agents,who only seek to deflect and divide.

      The Blue Tories have at last emerged from the shadows,they are cold bloodied,have no conscience,proud of who they are,what they represent,they come to fight,to talk not to listen,to lay down their rules,to subjugate.

      With the voting over,the slate is clean,for everyone….it’s all about tomorrow,it’s about Scotland,it’s about democracy,fairness and social inequality,it always has been.

      Wind in your necks,the enemy,their agents are suited n booted and waiting…..tomorrow the democratic battle for Independance really begins.

      Indyref2….Yes….let’s do it.

    249. @ken500 Ken500 wrote “The Greens 1300 Constituency votes. 150,000 2nd votes and 6 MSP’s 160,000. The SNP proportionally got 400,000 but proportionately no representation.

      It is because SNP give the (2) list vote to other Parties that they did not win a larger majority.”

      The SNP got a far higher share of seats than votes on the First Vote because it was under First Past the Post. They got 59 of the 73 constituency (first vote) seats. That was about 80% of those seats on 46.5% of the first votes cast.

      The Scottish parliament system is designed to fix that imbalance between votes and seats for each party on the first vote by dividing the second vote for parties in each region by (1 + Number of constituency seats they won on the same region on the first vote).

      And that’s why so many SNP 1+2 votes ended up wasted in a lot of places, as people warned they were likely to be, because if e.g you’ve won 6 constituency seats on the first vote, your list votes in the same region will be divided by 7 (1 + 6) in order to make the overall number of seats gained by each party on first and second votes together roughly proportional to the share of the vote they got on the first and second votes together.

      Now there were some other regions where more SNP votes could have elected another SNP MSP, but in a lot of others SNP 1+2 ended up wasting vote 2.

      Although not everyone voting SNP 1 + 2 was an SNP ultra who only wanted SNP MSPs elected, or thought it was a good idea to give one party a majority.

      ken500 wrote “The majority of people in the NE would never vote Green having been subjected to their ‘campaigns’ wasting £Million of public money being funded by Landowners to make the majority’s lives more difficult. Reneging on all their ‘Green’ policies. In the Tories pockets.”

      Details and evidence for these accusations?

    250. Ken500 says:

      The SNP does stand for social justice, protecting benefits and the environment. Wind farms and cutting pollution. Rationally. Their renewable targets have been higher than any country in Europe and the EU targets have been met. They have done that and more than any other Party in the Scotland/UK.

      Prescriptions, social care, ‘bedroom tax’ £100Million mitigating benefit cuts, supporting students, finishing off the Trams (totally overtime and budget), bus passes, appenticeships, nursery places, invested in NHS. Kept their promises.

    251. Valerie says:

      What Kirsty said.

      Seriously, you’re showing a real lack of self awareness, cat.

      No one destroyed RIC or these other fringe outfits, least of all WoS. That’s a nasty allegation.

      Step back from the keyboard.

    252. Jimmy says:

      Jimmy@8.08

      I’m in favour of Scotland remaining in the UK.
      That hasn’t stopped me from recognising that their are lots of good people in the SNP.I’m in poor health and I should have had more sense than drive round polling stations.
      At one station a young SNP girl realised I was a bit shaky, she then went into the hall and brought out a chair for me to sit on, when I left the polling station she then returned the chair to the hall.
      You may think that was a minor thing to do, but I grreatlly apreciated her concern

    253. Ken500 says:

      The SNP votes turned out – nearly more than all the other Parties combined. ‘They didn’t turn up’ So all the Parties votes where lower than the GE. Try comparing like with like. It might help.

    254. Kirsty says:

      SC,

      I only ever give my opinion as my opinion, SC – they’re as worthy or worthless as anyone else’s because they are just my opinions. I never presume to know what every other person thinks or should do. If you read any of my comments, you’ll see I’m always very careful to put caveats on them, i.e. it is just my opinion or what I’ve observed. Maybe you should do the same?

      Your way isn’t one of harmony is it? You’ve been belligerent and aggressive all night now with anyone who disagreed with you. You’re still being belligerent and aggressive. The vast majority of us on here are independence supporters. So you can hardly claim not to bad mouth other indy supporters when you’ve been doing just that all night.

      I’m not going to allow you to embroil me in an argument; I simply asked you very nicely to please stop being so bad tempered as it’s causing a problem. You can deflect all you want but it doesn’t change the fact that you’ve been telling people to fuck off all night. Just calm down, please. BTW, I never claimed YOU personally were the reason people were turned off independence either – dear me, who has THAT much power? I only said that people would be turned off reading your comments. There’s a difference.

    255. Luigi says:

      I’m heading for ma beed (some lost sleep to catch up on), but before I go, I would just like to say that I think we ought to be very grateful that we have such a skilled politician as Nicola Sturgeon.

      It is now apparent that the “one party state” and “once in a generation” messages had some traction in strong NO areas, and the NE and rural constituencies were vulnerable to a tory surge. If NS had not skilfully charted a course between keeping the YES voters onside, and not spooking the NO voters (too much), we could have been looking at many more lost seats in the NE and elsewhere on Friday morning.

      Ruthie played a blinder yoon card, but thankfully enough NO voters stayed with the SNP and the damage was limited. NS skilfully allayed their fears whilst avoiding ruling out another referendum in the next five years. A rare achievement in politics. I believe this was helped by incumbency and the fact that some of the SNP big hitters (well kent faces) represent rural constituencies.

      Compare that with Labour, which has been all over the place on the constitution: Panic turns one way followed by panic turns the other way a few days later. Labour stupidly walked into a trap, caught in a classic pincer movement between the nats and the yoons. The trap has now been strung and there is no escape.

      Thank goodness we have politicians like Nicola Sturgeon on our side. 🙂

    256. Ruby says:

      I tried to read MacWhirter’s article but I got bored and gave up!

      I can’t stand articles about what people say on Twitter!

      I watched Jackson Carlaw on Sunday Politics and I wasn’t impressed he wants the ‘named person act’ ditched and he wants thousands more college places is that really why people voted for ‘The Ruth Davidson We are not Tories NO to a referendum Opposition Party’?

    257. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie says:
      8 May, 2016 at 10:43 pm
      What Kirsty said.

      Seriously, you’re showing a real lack of self awareness, cat.

      No one destroyed RIC or these other fringe outfits, least of all WoS. That’s a nasty allegation.

      as nasty as this article which thread which we are commenting on does not portray the scottish greens as misoginists?

      damn right im angry, had enough of this shit val,

      any criticism of any indy supporting group is a direct attack on the indy movement.

    258. Kevin Evans says:

      For Scotland to make it over the last hurdle to become an independant country we need more than one main political party to support it. (I know smaller parties were yes but I said main)

      We came close with SNP/green last time.

      I am soooooo very grateful this election turned out the way it did and a lot of posters on here need to take stock of what happened.

      We were allowed to have a “test” indyref2 with this election. SNP votes went up. YES has closed the gap. The unionists basically got less.

      I know we want independence today a lot of us but it’s not gonna happen. It’s going to take time.

      Stop all the green bashing it’s not helping. Yous can’t say on one hand “we need to convince no voters to come to yes” and then take a swipe at yes people for supporting a yes party. And the greens were a yes party.

      I suggest from today we count our blessings indyref2 didn’t happen on Thursday. Take stock of how closer to the goal we are and start to build alliances.

      And before someone blames me for voting green I voted SNP x2.

    259. schrodingers cat says:

      kirsty
      i express my opinion, what else do i have????

    260. schrodingers cat says:

      kirsty
      Your way isn’t one of harmony is it?

      plenty of my friends who are in the greens take a great deal of offense that the article under which we are commenting on tries to portray the greens as a bunch of misoginists???

      wtf kirsty

      So you can hardly claim not to bad mouth other indy supporters when you’ve been doing just that all night.

      my language may be a tad colourful but when i see people deliberatly attacking other indy groups, like on this thread, what should i do?

      bear in mind, im not green or ssp, as you so rightly remembered

    261. @Schrodingers cat – So basically you’re saying reduced turnout of SNP voters compared to unionist voters played a big part in losing the SNP their majority?

    262. Luigi says:

      Luigi @10:47pm

      traps are “sprung” not “strung”

      Doh!

      G’nite folks. 🙂

    263. Ken500 says:

      Accusations? Google Opposition to AWPR, Airport expansion, Trump Development, UTG Project, Muse Carbuncle. – Greens/Unionists People were protesting in the Street. It has wasted £Million/Billion of public money. Against the majority wishes and the public interest Greens are also against CCS and landownership.

    264. Paula Rose says:

      @ schrodingers cat lots of strokes Honey xx

    265. schrodingers cat says:

      turnout from 2015 ge
      tory 434,097

      turnout from 2016 he
      tory 501,844

      wrong again ken

      must try harder

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      Duncan McFarlane says:
      8 May, 2016 at 10:58 pm
      @Schrodingers cat – So basically you’re saying reduced turnout of SNP voters compared to unionist voters played a big part in losing the SNP their majority?

      im not claiming anything, im just pointing to the actual numbers
      the numbers are the numbers
      we lost nef because 11 months ago

      2015 NEF
      SNP = 18523
      LIB = 14179
      TORY = 7373
      LAB= 3476
      GREEN=1387

      2016 NEF
      SNP = 11463
      LIB =14,928
      TORY = 5646
      LAB= 2026

      where did all these snp voters go?

      the unionist vote held up but ours didnt

      how else would you explain it?

    267. Ruby says:

      Anyone do Twitter?

      Tell the Rev the sweets he is looking for were called
      Fruit Bonbons

      Here’s a picture

      http://tinyurl.com/z2fg442

    268. schrodingers cat says:

      btw duncan
      had everyone in fife and mid who voted solidarity, green or rise, voted snp… labour would have won the 7th seat, not the greens

      the comments on this thread would seem to indicate that a fair few of the commentators on this thread think this would have been preferable since other indy groups undermine the indy cause???

      after all, the greens are a bunch of misoginists as per this article, and rise a bunch of shape shifting aliens? no?

    269. One_Scot says:

      Cat mate, you’re pumping out more posts than the resident trolls, take a break man.

    270. Papadox says:

      O/T Nicola may I suggest one of the first moves is to set up a committee regarding root and branch land reform. Think that might keep the landed gentry and their Tory lachies occupied.
      Buffalo Gal can run around trying to cancel indiref2 and the MSPs can enact land reform Scotland bill. Sounds like a winner to me. It’ll keep the Tories regular?

    271. heedtracker says:

      Duncan McFarlane

      ken500 wrote “The majority of people in the NE would never vote Green having been subjected to their ‘campaigns’ wasting £Million of public money being funded by Landowners to make the majority’s lives more difficult. Reneging on all their ‘Green’ policies. In the Tories pockets.”

      Details and evidence for these accusations?

      http://www.mearnsleader.co.uk/news/local-headlines/submit-objections-to-awpr-on-road-sense-web-site-1-204627

      Shiona Baird MSP, from the Green Party, together with representatives from Aberdeen Campaign against Climate Change, Friends of the Earth, the Woodland Trust and Aberdeen Greenbelt Alliance will be addressing the meeting.

      In come the Green blockers! Again. Everywhere else in teamGB south of Newcastle, has an incredible 21st century road infrastructure but Scotland cant have one because its not Green.

      A Green blocked Trump golf, fair enough but he didn’t block all the other noddy box housing estates going up all over the Aberdeen green belt and so on.

      Scottish Greens are middle class tories trying to be nice, whatever that is. That block on the by-pass bumped costs up to £1.5bn and its 40 years too late, better than never though.

      That’s just some of my Green nightmare.

      Oh wait, Green blockers block Andy Murray’s sports centre at Dublane as its a very very bad thing too, if youre Green.

    272. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie

      Step back from the keyboard.

      you step back from the keyboard or bring it on

      piss on the pot or fuck off

    273. K1 says:

      Cat, what was the figure for 2011 NEF HE? Just curious.

    274. schrodingers cat says:

      One_Scot says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:10 pm
      Cat mate, you’re pumping out more posts than the resident trolls, take a break man.

      why should I? the folk on wings are directly responsable, amonst others, for the vilification and demise of RIC,

      you think i should shut up when stu and the rest try toi undermine the greens by calling them misoginists?

      grow a pair

    275. schrodingers cat says:

      K1
      just posted them

    276. crazycat says:

      @ schrodingers cat

      Are the boundaries the same for Westminster and Holyrood?

      Your figures show that all parties lost votes except the LDs, so if the constituency is smaller and the turnout lower, is that enough to account for it?

      If so, the question then becomes “where did all the extra LDs come from?” and that is not clear.

      The percentage changes since 2011 are:

      SNP -3.51%
      Con -2.36%
      Lab -6.23%

      but LD +15.39%

    277. heedtracker says:

      after all, the greens are a bunch of misogynists as per this article, and rise a bunch of shape shifting aliens? no?

      Green hypocrisy, not misogyny. There’s a world of difference. Who knows, Green’s a very sensitive clearly so they maybe will make the switch. Maybe not though.

    278. Kirsty says:

      schrodingers cat

      Opfh, for God’s sake. I told you, SC, that I wouldn’t be embroiled in a fight and I won’t be – I simply asked you to calm down and stop talking shit about people on this thread (who are indy supporters, btw) but apparently you can’t. Ah well. I’ve got work to go to tomorrow so I’m out. Have a nice night.

    279. Paula Rose says:

      I love my pussy – such a lovely cat.

    280. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 May, 2016 at 9:23 pm:

      ” … but im not the green brigade, never have been.”

      Then perhaps you might point out where I ever said you were?

      What you are is a pathetic nonentity lashing out at anyone in a blind rage.

      ” … you may not like the greens”

      Another idiotic irrelevant comment from an increasingly irrelevant commenter. You don’t listen, do you?

      I already posted that I was fighting for, “green”, issues way back in the early 1950s.

      Fact is the modern Green Party has somewhat lost its way and has people as members who are more concerned with nimbyism than real green policies. So there you go, wrong again.

      The Greens are mainly good guys but there is an element that is pro-big sporting estate who have succeeded in the past in holding Scottish best interests back for years. Some of them sadly very scientifically misinformed.

    281. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Some may find this interesting – WOS entry for May 7th 2011.

      The editorial is fascinating for all sorts of reasons, but so is the btl ‘discussion’.

      A wee bit of compare/contrast might provide a time-out, and who knows, perhaps help soothe things a tad?

      🙂

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/scotland-and-you/#comments

    282. schrodingers cat says:

      crazycat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:18 pm
      @ schrodingers cat

      Are the boundaries the same for Westminster and Holyrood?

      almost exactly, the only difference is the ward of leven, some 3000 inhabitants, not enough to account for the drop of 7k

    283. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/hetcfas

      Here’s another picture of the Fruit Bonbons!

      Remember these?

      🙂

    284. K1 says:

      Actually ‘only’ the Libdem vote held up… all the others dropped from the GE result in the intervening 11 months just by a little but dropped nonetheless. The drop in the SNP vote is actually quite startling in comparison!

    285. schrodingers cat says:

      heed
      Green hypocrisy, not misogyny. There’s a world of difference

      yup, we are all guilty of it

      i just wish the focus was on the unionists….hypocracy is their game

      dont you think the unionist media is hypocritical enough for all of us?

    286. Cal says:

      Jimmy, you’re clearly a gentleman sir and I appreciate your comments. There are good and bad in all parties, the SNP included. I cannot agree with your stance on Scottish independence however and hope that one day you will change your mind. We have great potential as a country and it is a crime that it is not realized. I like to think of independence as not being against anything but FOR something better. I believe now that the Westminster system of government cannot be repaired. It is simply irredeemable and when enough people come to understand that independence will naturally follow. Perhaps one day you will come to realize this too. In the meantime, I wish you better health.

    287. K1 says:

      No Cat, you posted the GE15 and HE16, but crazy cat’s provided the percentage difference between HE11 and HE16. Ta

    288. schrodingers cat says:

      k1
      the tory vote in nef is and has been about 8k for the last 15 years, 2k voted tactically in 2015 for the libdems and did so again on thursday

      in the last he in 2011, the lib dems got 9k

      for all of the arguments about how one cant game the dhondt system, they did, look at orkney and shetland results if you dont belive me.

      we didnt have a tacticle voting strategy because of the sniping on social media

      it did not need to have been this way

    289. Big Jock says:

      Nicola did not look like someone who was ready to govern and ditch independence. Her language indicated the opposite. I think a few people on here will be surprised at the new Nicola.

      She had to get Wm then Holyrood….then she will tale the fight to the Tories and unionists. She is clever and realises that people’s interest in politics will wane if it’s groundhog day.

      There is just no guarantee that independence will be higher in 5 years than it is now. She has the power and she has the numbers. Independence is coming and sooner than some suspect.

    290. Tam Jardine says:

      Bizarre- the problem with this thread is Schrodingers cat telling people to fuck off is it? Mindblowing – truly mind blowing to think that intelligent posters on here think SC is the problem.

      Read the article ATL again and if anyone can tell me how this pushes the independence cause forward I would love to hear it. I think Stuart is pissed off with a lot of people who didn’t listen and other people on bella and commonspace who wrote article after article slating him. Fair enough- I’d be pissed off too.

      He has done more for the indy cause than almost anyone. This piece is pointless and divisive- anyone can see that.

      In the etiquette section of the website rule number one: Write as if an undecided voter is reading.

      What would an undecided think reading this piece? They would think that Wings hates the Scottish Greens.

      I sincerely hope this period of yoon-pleasing bitterness ends very soon. But in the mean time, please lay off the cat as he is 100% right in this matter.

      We win independence together or we win fuck all

    291. K1 says:

      Did you ‘know’ they were gaming the system Cat? I mean were you aware that this was ‘afoot’ in the lead up? Did anyone have their ‘eye’ on these developments as they were unfolding from the unionist side?

    292. K1 says:

      Well said Tam.

    293. Robert Peffers says:

      @Valerie says: 8 May, 2016 at 1:36 pm:

      <I"Anyone who has owned cats knows that some of them can be crabby, and scratch for no apparent reason."

      (I meant to post this earlier but it somehow didn’t get sent.)

      Did you perhaps mean, “Anyone that cats have owned knows they can be crabby, and scratch for no apparent reason”?

      No one ever owns cats, (any kind of cats). They are the most perfect form of killing machine nature has ever invented.

      No other natural predator plays with, (tortures), its prey in the manner of cats – just for the sheer hell of it.

      The cat family is designed and built as very efficient killing machines and it is in their nature to kill. If they stick with a human it is for selfish reasons and a domestic cat will leave any home where it feels it is not the human person’s master.

      Yer wee dug will stick with you and die with you if you are faced with starvation. Yer cat will be found on someone else’s window sill, mewing pathetically, if its present home is not to its liking.

      You never own it – it owns you.

    294. Ken500 says:

      Can anyone explain how a 60% tax rate will work. Or an Act can be passed stopping Cameron’s father in law owning land or an estate in Scotland and the consequences. It is actually impossible but they will con people into believing it. Or how most of their policies will come into being. Or how such a small group of people believe they can hold a majority gov to ransom, on some of these policies. People who believe this are just being conned. Is it being trustworthy or manipulative as these policies/promises will be reneged upon. Making promises they can’t keep. Will they blame everyone else but themselves? Ouch but it’s all right. They maybe believe in Independence under certain restrictions. Another con. Maybe Aye mibees Naw.

      There has been a suggestion they sited their Edinburgh campaign near a University to get student votes. So an English person can vote Green in Scotland but they can’t own land? That’s rational.

    295. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Peffers
      ” … but im not the green brigade, never have been.”

      Then perhaps you might point out where I ever said you were?

      i never said you did, i was merely pointing out that i was defending the greens without actually being a green, thought it was important to point that out

      i am in fact snp, have been for 35 years….until i resigned tonight

      What you are is a pathetic nonentity lashing out at anyone in a blind rage.

      it wasnt me who said, ” I dont trust the greens” it was you?

      ” … you may not like the greens”

      Another idiotic irrelevant comment from an increasingly irrelevant commenter. You don’t listen, do you?

      you must, other wise why respond,

      stay classy…. pub bore

    296. mr thms says:

      Pointless comparing this voters register with the previous register of 2011

      http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voter-registration

      “Missing Millions”

    297. NeoconNat says:

      Good evening, all.

      You’ll all be glad I am sure to know that this is my last post here ever.

      Looks like there’s been a few collisions in the particle chamber tonight without me, but what did we learn? Any dark energy discovered? I like the sound of that stuff.

      I’m surprised that some of the more high profile and eloquent voices of the left haven’t made any suggestions along the lines of giving something back to the ordinary people who have supported the SNP over the last few years. It’s almost as if so many millions of votes and voters don’t matter.

      One of the best ways to win hearts and minds is by feeding them bread and butter, did you know that? (hence ‘bread and butter’ politics) You’d never have guessed it in here. It really shouldn’t take a Neo-Con to point this stuff out. I’m very disappointed with those who purport to represent the interests of the ordinary man; I had hoped my name and slant would have prompted something more meaningful than discussions on dialectics and trolling.

      So, since independence looks like it’s on hold for a few years, how about creating some jobs and boosting the economy? Or is it only the crap policies of the radicals and socialists we steal, like the Named Person nonsense? (Yes, it’s nonsense, not because I don’t care about child welfare but because even those who support it say it’s voluntary and will do little to help. All it has done is distracted, lost votes, and made us an easy target.)

      How about we frack like hell? If the scientists say it’s safe, why not? You could create say 30 thousand jobs over night. That’s 30 thousand households and many more lives improved, giving them more money, much more spending power, and massively boosting local economies. We could run trials in Orkney and Shetland.

      One of the things everyone in education knows is that poverty plays a hugely important part in detrimentally influencing outcomes. Bluntly put, a hungry kid who is worrying about his dad’s unemployment, along with all the crap that goes hand in hand with that, is always going to struggle in school. But you all know this because you are all on the caring left. And I’m sure Nicola does too because education is her new priority.

      How about 100 thousand houses in the central belt over the next 5 years? Think of the jobs and the positive spin-off effects on the economy. God knows we need more council houses. Wouldn’t that help win people over, if they could see the SNP do real stuff that really helps instead of…

      To tell the truth, I’m just spitting out ideas. I feel sorry for all those people that built their hopes up over the last few years, hoping for better lives and prospects. We all know them: people that went through University and came out to nothing, people that are struggling and close to breaking point, those who swell the numbers at queues outside food banks, many of whom are working poor, single mothers, etc.

      If child welfare and education is a priority, maybe we should help those people; many of them do actually have kids, after all. And they did everything we could have asked of them in terms of support at elections, just as they did everything Labour asked of them for so many decades and got nothing in return.

      But who cares what a Neo-Con troll thinks? Best ignored. Nothing to see here. Where are the eloquent people with the big words and the artistic ways of putting things? They might be lacking when it comes to solutions and answers but they have beautiful ways of putting problems and explaining the questions we face. If only we could feed hungry people that stuff.

    298. schrodingers cat says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:36 pm
      Did you ‘know’ they were gaming the system Cat? I mean were you aware that this was ‘afoot’ in the lead up? Did anyone have their ‘eye’ on these developments as they were unfolding from the unionist side?

      the branch members pointed out what we were against months ago, a local lad, rennie fae miglo, with wall to wall tv exposure, every bit coin the libdems had spent on the postie delivering 12 leaflets, far better and more professional leaflets than we had…would the snp be willing to give us some help? no
      would they be willing to do some constituency polls to help us target our voters? no. would they let us have access to the activate data base….which we fucking created!!! to help identify our supporters. no. too risky, data confindentiality etc
      the activists in nef worked as hard as any across scotland, indeed, if the tallies being kept by the central snp are anything to go by, the nef activists never dropped below the top 10% in the whole of scotland.

      the snp voters didnt turn out on thursday, no doubt about it, but since nef was the weakest snp supported constituency in the region, we were hit harder by this than anywhere else
      thats why rennie won

      the snp campaign machine is not the wonderful engine folks make it out to be. it isnt perfect

      then again, ashcroft type constituency polls by wings might also have identified where we were failing. instead we got the wee black book…..

    299. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert Peffers

      i fuckin hate cats

      oh, and dogs too

      i keep bees and pear trees

    300. schrodingers cat says:

      NeoconNat says:
      Good evening, all.

      You’ll all be glad I am sure to know that this is my last post here ever.

      hooray…..did i forget to tell you….etc

    301. Lochside says:

      Maybe the wrong thread..but it’s taken me a couple of days to mull over the result and the shitstorm which has erupted over all the ‘result’.

      I stopped commentating on this site for a while because I got fed up of the petty focusing on irrevelancies which had become the norm. I have always believed that the biggest obstacle to our Independence has been the BBC. And G.A.Ponsonby with Prof. John Robertson have signposted the evidence for the past few years confirming this in forensic detail.

      Despite this, we’ve had and continue to have bitching and internecine bloodletting about which vote counts. I offer as evidence the last couple of days…

      Let’s face facts:..the whole bogus agenda for the last election was determined by the BBC…i.e. the Referendum ‘question’ combined with the ‘second list vote option’….. The first one was a total joke…how many times had NS to explain it was down to the ‘Scottish People to decide’… self explanatory and final but.. the BBC knew the ‘silent majority’ of unionists have been fuming at the SNP’s success so they deftly twinned it with the doubt aimed at the non-SNP vote, but YES friendly voters to ‘use their vote to hold the SNP to account’… tap into their self righteous naivety….the BBC’s agenda as bogus as Ruth Davidson’s smile..but efective in galvanising the Unionist vote…middle class and active versus the soft Yes vote…(complacent working class and idealistic political activist). The former voting Unionist and the latter voting Green or Rise.
      Result: reduced SNP control…just what the BBC had been instructed to achieve.

      We …the Nationalist community have allowed ourselves to be divided and ruled by the BBC..yet again. The SNP were naive in letting and yes.. conniving … in letting the YES coalition fall by the wayside. The Unionist never quit..plus they had the BBC…as ever on their side.

      Until we…the SNP…who are left to represent us take on the BBC head on… we will face decline through attrition by the media until the dream dies or …..Forget about the British State’s usurping AS’s campaign of 2011 to personalise the unacceptable i.e the toxic Tory bastards and their attack on the working people of Scotland ..by the make over of ‘Ruthie’ a despicable puppet dangled via the yellow press and BBC as a real ‘person’ not what she is…a glove puppet with pretensions on an ermine collar.

      Hello Edinburgh…£8 for a prescription?…privatised NHS?… hundreds of millions on a redundant trident replacement?…a plague on you… ya bastards!

      We must break the control of the BBC now….or suffer gradual and total defeat. Every revolution is started by controlliing the tv and radio media. The yellow press don’t matter..they are foreign owned..beyond control and dying anyway. But the BBC are infecting the body politic of our country daily with the Unionist virus of colonial lies and ommision. Support GA Ponsonby’s documentary…get the truth out regarding the political oppression being imposed on us… the world’s oldest and one of the best loved nations. Stop infighting..Scotland’s real shame…dividing in the face of the enemy…and unite against the real enemy .. bring down the BBC now!.

    302. CameronB Brodie says:

      Re. Macwhirter. Has he apologised yet for telling porkies about ‘ethnic cleansing’ in Kosovo? Some how I doubt it.

      @ Mr. Macwhirter
      You are aware that the false reporting of news in support of aggressive war (you were supportive of the bombing of Syria), is considered a war crime itself?

    303. Bob Mack says:

      “I was SNP until I resigned tonight.”

      What a laugh. Poor diddums ,with a damaged ego. If anybody has made you look like a tool tonight it has been yourself mate .Get off your high horse .

    304. schrodingers cat says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:30 pm
      No Cat, you posted the GE15 and HE16, but crazy cat’s provided the percentage difference between HE11 and HE16. Ta

      the % s are worthless to activists on the ground, what they need is data

      eg, i got a list of snp members in my area of my ward….18 hrs before the election…. data protection dont ya know… too bad, if i had known my fuckin next door neighbour was a member of the snp, i might have asked him to help deliver some leaflets or GOTV!!

      so much for %s k1

    305. Dr Jim says:

      My gosh folks, this still going on, it’s done, over, kaput, can’t turn back time

      Look to the future fun we’re going to have watching Willie Rennie doing the punching above his weight thing and the Tank Commandress’s head popping like a big pluke when she gets herself overly faux agitated

      Kezia, no matter what she’s going to say will look glum doing it because the realisation of not becoming a princess has dawned

      Is it OK to mention Chairman Harvie or are some folk still being sensitive about him

      Have a laugh at it all folks, we’ve won by a mile and everything’s Shiny

    306. schrodingers cat says:

      Bob Mack
      do one sonny

    307. schrodingers cat says:

      actually mr peffers

      i do like small dogs

      you can kick them further……

    308. schrodingers cat says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:30 pm
      No Cat, you posted the GE15 and HE16, but crazy cat’s provided the percentage difference between HE11 and HE16. Ta

      so there was no referendum in 2014 and no general election in 2015? these results dont count some how?

      2015 to 2016, the snp lost 400,000 votes, almost a third. do you think support for indy has dropped from 50% to 35% since thursday?

    309. Valerie says:

      @Tam Jardine

      Thanks for putting us all straight.

      Remember the etiquette? You having a laugh?

      Fair enough about your opinion on the article, but don’t tell me cat is helping or defending the Indy cause, OR that he is writing for the good of a lurker.

    310. heedtracker says:

      schrodingers cat

      i just wish the focus was on the unionists….hypocracy is their game

      dont you think the unionist media is hypocritical enough for all of us?

      I do and don’t stop saying what you think. Its how I learn:D

    311. Tam Jardine says:

      Lochside

      Exactly. We will never have a democratic election or referendum until we deal with this.

      Not sure how to go about it but. There are a few farfetched ways I can think of but can’t express here for obvious reasons. Better discussed off grid.

      Maybe that’s what we need instead of another WOS night out- a meeting to discuss this.

    312. Robert Peffer says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 8 May, 2016 at 11:41 pm:

      “i am in fact snp, have been for 35 years….until i resigned tonight”.

      Oh! I’m sure the party will survive without you. No party, including the Greens and the SNP, are above criticism.

      Furthermore, criticism is a very healthy thing in all organisations. Providing, that is, it is not done in the abusive manner you adopted on this thread and have kept on doing throughout the whole debate on the matter.

      What is more I’m certain the Greens are more mature and sensible than yourself and I doubt if any, who were not already inclined to be anti-SNP, will be suddenly becoming anti-independence over a little criticism.

      I’ve had more than my fair share of Greens criticise both myself and the SNP and I’m still here as an SNP supporter.

      I said it already but will repeat it again. Grow-up and stop making an utter fool of yourself.

    313. Bob Mack says:

      @Schrodingers Cat.

      Haemorrhoid cream can help you.

    314. schrodingers cat says:

      K1 says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:30 pm
      No Cat, you posted the GE15 and HE16, but crazy cat’s provided the percentage difference between HE11 and HE16. Ta

      ta too, there were people who argued on the strentgh of the numbers from 2010, on wos, that campaigning in kirkcaldy was a waste of time. as if we haddnt had a referendum and the results from 2011 were also irrelevant

      so glad no one took any notice etc

    315. schrodingers cat says:

      🙂
      heed, i never will.

    316. Ruby says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      8 May, 2016 at 11:54 pm

      the branch members pointed out what we were against months ago, a local lad, rennie fae miglo, with wall to wall tv exposure

      Ruby replies

      Candidates standing against the three party leaders who got wall to wall tv exposure were at a great disadvantage.

      Willie Rennie in his pig farm visit video claimed he didn’t know how it worked but unless he is really stupid then that was a lie.

    317. schrodingers cat says:

      you grow up peffers, who do you think you are? the oracle of fuckin’ delphi
      im sure the snp will live with out me, i am just glad to be rid of a useless baggage

      it was you who started this thread on the tact that the greens and other indy parties are not to be trusted, (eyes too close the gither, know yer jew etc) it is you who is dividing us, not me.
      personally i have had enough of yer bigoted narrow minded piffle, and im not afraid to say it

      No party, including the Greens and the SNP, are above criticism. no they are not
      but the indy movement is

      better still, save your criticisms for the unionists, they are the enemy, not the greens, rise or bella

      re read the article atl again peffers
      oh and did i forget to tell you, i prefer small dogs… you can kick them further

    318. Lochside says:

      Thanks Tam J….a fellow doonhamer…no doubt shamed, as I was , by our home town’s disgraceful vote. This was the toun that burned the Act of Union at the Mercat cross in 1707!. We need a concerted and internationally media-led attack on the stinking edifice known as the ‘BBC’ in Scotland. Something that alerts the Western World..outside the ruling elites ….to our struggle. We’re wasting our time within the UK.

      The RUK populations are beyond redemption…totally in thrall to the UKIP anti-foreigner narrative. And in our own country…15% Scots middle class and OO plus English settlers determined to keep us as a colony. We must make a move now…otherwise we will be brainwashed and ‘planted’ out of existence.

    319. yesindyref2 says:

      Tam Jardine’s right, and while we get articles saying “I ‘ate greens”, or “Greens stole my porridge”, or “Greens are aholes”, cat’s right, why should he be the one to fuck off?

      That’s be kind of like the DM having a headline “SNP eat babies”, and SNP supporters below the line being told to fuck off when they post against it.

      For me, any more anti-Green articles and I’m fucking off, and like Cat, I’m not Green. But it’s not what Indy is all about.

      @NCN
      Don’t forget to leave your catflap microchip afore ye go.

    320. Grouse Beater says:

      Just given over some time to read Craig Murray’s last few blogs. I have to say I like his measured, reasonable approach to the election result.

      As a former civil servant-ambassador he knows how the British establishment’s mind works, so I would not dismiss his insight in the least.

      His forecast of what can happen, and probably will, over the next months and years, the events that bare likely to bring an opportunity for a second plebiscite seems realistic to me, certainly based on past parliamentary history.

      I didn’t see the Sarah Smith’s report, but again, Craig’s reporting of it sounds accurate to me. I should think BBC Scotland feels thoroughly assailed from all sides, and has grown to be over-protective to the point of cocky. I guess that’s a natural reaction when you presume your audience don’t like you much.

      I agree it’s galling to see increased support for an administration being treated with low praise by the media, but it’s no surprise they lie in wait to turn success into defeat.

      The SNP is juggling with Westminster’s constraints and shenanigans whilst trying to cover everything on a budget ‘donated’ by the UK Treasury. You can only stand back and wonder how they manage it all things considered.

    321. schrodingers cat says:

      Ruby replies

      Candidates standing against the three party leaders who got wall to wall tv exposure were at a great disadvantage.

      Willie Rennie in his pig farm visit video claimed he didn’t know how it worked but unless he is really stupid then that was a lie.

      then the snp central is really stupid too, they spent hrs touring kirkcaldy, cowdenbeath, glenrothes and pretty much every where else in fife and mid scotland where all of the other constituencies had a 50+ victory 11 months ago
      nef was 41% snp 31% libdem
      dont blame the activists on the ground, they bust a gut during the election. blame the campaign team at snp central for being rubbish.

      if they dont believe me, they can access nef fb page and verify the discussions amongst the snp activists in nef

      we lost this election and we shouldnt have, why should i not point the finger?

    322. Dr Jim says:

      Meanwhile in the rest of the world David Cameron says Brexit will lead to WAR I mean WAR
      The man’s lost the plot completely now

      It’s front paged in all tomorrows papers

      Ruthie’s got her own tank so she’ll be OK

    323. schrodingers cat says:

      dads
      thanks for the support but some of the criticisms against my language are valid, just lost my cool a bit tonight.
      i take as good as i give

    324. Big Jock says:

      Agree with most of the postings. I am a lifelong member of the SNP. But we don’t own the electorate. People can vote for who they decide. I will always Vote Snp 1 and 2.

      Having said that I am not entirely sure what Patrick Harvie’s endgame is. He can be quite cocky and arrogant sometimes. If independence is not his number 1 priority we will soon find out. Plenty of the others are very pro indi.

      In any case constantly pouring over something we can’t change is pointless. I am bored with second vote mathematics. Can we get back to talking about independence. Green,Yellow who cares do we not all want the same thing.

    325. bugsbunny says:

      Bloody hell Ruby, I’m diabetic and now I’m looking up 70s sweets on the net. Golden Cup and bar six. And curries “ginger”. Especially flavours we no longer get. Orangeade as well as the cloudy Orange Squash. Limeade as well as the cloudy Lime Squash. Grapefruit Cup, Bitter Lemon, American Kola ect. And Lemon Creamola Foam.

      On a more political note, maybe one of those nice tory constituency MSP’s will resign over ill health or a money/sex scandal? Give the presiding officer’s job to one of the Liberal List MSP’s and two by election wins and we may have a majority. Maybe a sex scandal from a certain male tory MSP? It won’t be long until an illness/death or resignation forces a by election. Lets hope it’s a Unionist MSP that goes first. Am I heartless? Maybe. I no longer care. Sod them all.

      Stephen.

    326. schrodingers cat says:

      Dr Jim

      ive got my own daktari gun so im ok too 🙂

    327. schrodingers cat says:

      Green,Yellow who cares do we not all want the same thing.

      apparently not the reds though. ric no longer exist, did they not want the same thing too?

      we can say nothing or let the same group destroy the greens too. me? im not having it.

    328. CamernoB Brodie says:

      schrodingers cat says
      Hope you’re not cross eyed then, as well. 😉

    329. K1 says:

      I was just curious about the numbers Cat, and was being ‘literal’ in terms of the HE11 figures, but yes remarkable that various areas weren’t ‘targeted’ strategically and your’e not happy about the lack of support from HQ which would have aided this, no doubt.

      Sorry you are so disappointed Cat, understandable when you’ve poured so much of yourself into this. 🙁

    330. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      If we all took a chill pill and looked at ourselves in the mirror, a long hard look, I think we’d all, RISE, Green, RIC, commonspace/weal – and SNP – accept we got obsessed with the issue of tactical voting almost to the exclusion of all else, and totally forgot there was an election on, and elections mean issues and electorates.

      I’d guess the voters looked at it all and thought “WTF?”.

      I’m off to bed, knackered, working all last night, night all!

    331. Lochside says:

      Grouse Beater:’I should think BBC Scotland feels thoroughly assailed from all sides, and has grown to be over-protective to the point of cocky. I guess that’s a natural reaction when you presume your audience don’t like you much’

      I’ve read your contributions over the years and I am surprised that you see the BBC so naively as you’ve always struck me as a fairly insightful individual.

      However, to see the BBC as anything other than an instrument of British propaganda strikes me as incredibly foolish.

      Since 2007, and to be honest, before this, the BBC has waged a campaign of war on the SNP and the Independence movement. Even ex-employees such as Derek Batemen are now admitting that they are persona non grata since leaving the organisation and revealing their true nationalist colours.

      This black-balling is not symptomatic of an organisation that is fair or honest.

      ‘Cockiness’ does not represent professionalism. What we are faced with is unprofessionalism, ommission, distortion, and deliberate agendas based on the British State’s requirements i.e affirmation of its raison d’aitre e.g Royalfest over the Queen’s 90th birthday.

      Have you forgotten the Queen’s ‘purring’ reported as an acceptable response by the ‘UK’s monarchy?

      Look..there is no longer any point in trying to pretend that the BBC is anything but an instrument and mouthpiece for Rule Brittania…think of the collusion day by day of’Political issues’…all the same …by the BBC and the yellow press…all bearing the same headlines and the same ‘issues’….enough said?

    332. schrodingers cat says:

      CamernoB Brodie
      need glasses to read mon ami

      but at 200 m i could still chose which eye to shoot you in 🙂

    333. schrodingers cat says:

      Valerie says:

      Fair enough about your opinion on the article, but don’t tell me cat is helping or defending the Indy cause, OR that he is writing for the good of a lurker.

      I am writing for the good of the lurker, to show them that not all here are narrow minded sycophants and are not afraid to stand up and be counted

      i do not speak for everybody here, but neither do you Val.

    334. Grouse Beater says:

      Lochside “However, to see the BBC as anything other than an instrument of British propaganda strikes me as incredibly foolish.”

      I’ve got some abusive Daily Mail film critic biting at my heels right now because I dared to challenge Loki’s ability to turn personal tragedy into SNP-Bad, so perhaps I didn’t make meaning clear.

      I don’t doubt the BBC is as people and ex-employees say, an instrument of British propaganda. They justify an aggressive, disrespectful stance as having a brief to seek out truth. But we know they distort it first, and then seek out the truth they want that will encourage consent.

      But you know, that extends to advertising on television. I have grown to detest advertising companies and what they make us do and think and how we act. They’re just as bad as BBC and Murdoch’s lot. In fact, they’re owned by both.

    335. geeo says:

      I have looked at the last few dozen comments on here and frankly, it is a complete clusterfuck.

      We won ffs, this “losing the majority” is the biggest red herring being pushed by a joke of a media as an SNP loss.

      Is it fuck. It was an incredible victory.

      While folk bicker and bitch at each other here, the tories are getting on with announcing what THEY are going to ‘stop’ the SNP government doing on x y and z policy.

      Our job surely, is to get the message out to people that actually, there is not a hope of the tories having any chance of success, and why not.

      Severin carrol from the guardian on sunday politics slipped in that the SNP had won support from “around 25% of the Scottish POPULATION”.

      Brewer strangely enough, ‘forgot’ to tell the rancid scribbler that actually, newborn babies up to 15 years old do not ACTUALLY get a vote!

      THESE are kind of things which need our focus, rather than the kind of petty squabbles seen on here today.

      If people wish to keep these petty squabbles going, meet in a far away field, well away from a wifi or mobile signal, and settle your differences with either a deathmatch or a bitchfest, the winner can come back and inform the folk who want mature discussion who won.

      Then maybe we can get on with the fight to be independent, united behind the same cause, is everyone up for that ?

    336. Grouse Beater says:

      Geeo: “Severin carrol from the Guardian on sunday politics slipped in that the SNP had won support from “around 25% of the Scottish POPULATION”.”

      An old dodge, reduce the percentage by increasing the numbers artificially.

      You wonder, or at least I do, what the hell we would have done were it not for Wings exposing the lies and fabrications, and the platform it provides to discuss these things.

    337. Smallaxe says:

      With all its sham drudgery and broken dreams
      It is still a beautiful World
      Be careful.Strive to be happy

    338. bjsalba says:

      Why are people here spending so much time ranting over what happened. SNP still runs the Scottish Government. We have a pro-indy majority in Holyrood. You don’t see Nicola doing that do you?

      Some of us may doubt the Green Party motives but they have to know that much of their new membership are Green Yessers. If they betray the Independence cause they will lose that support in an instant.

      Instead of the whining Kezia we have the petulant Ruthie as head of the opposition. I wonder if she will continue to ask Nicola when she plans to meet with Cameron at the start of each FMQs – what a lovely opening for Nicola.

      The EU in-out referendum campaign is coming up. Expend your energies on getting Scotland to vote to stay in. That is both SNP and Green Party policy. See how Ruthie handles that.

    339. Grouse Beater says:

      I see headlines about those who make a living, or part living, from the BBC are singing its praises at the UK’s BAFTA hand outs. Have any said the attacks are all the fault of the dreadful Scottish government?

      And at a different ceremony Michelle Mone picked up a Vietnam man and cuddled him thinking he was a cute little boy. Oh dear. What a howler.

    340. Grouse Beater says:

      From Mark Lawson on the BBC’s BAFTA binge:

      The BBC’s critics, in politics and the industry, would point out that their objections are not primarily to the programming that comes out of New Broadcasting House but to the internal structures and regulation. It is probably a blessing for the corporation that there are no Bafta categories for best value managers, most efficient public expenditure or best chair of the BBC Trust.

      [My emphasis]

    341. Ken500 says:

      For all their efforts the BBC & MSM are still failing because Scotland still has a SNP nearly majority government. Thanks to people like Rev Stu.

      ‘If just 360 people in Dumbarton and Edinburgh Central had switched to the SNP, the party would have won two more seats and achieved a second majority of 65.’ x all over Scotland.

      For Davidson to be complaining that Nicola uses ‘I’ is just beyond comprehension. When Davidson even tried to conceal her Party on electoral literature. Lies. There are still vulnerable people dying in Scotland. People being sanctioned and having to use food banks because of the U turn Nasty Party.

      The electoral system and the recycling of totally voted out and rejected politicians is a complete and utter disgrace. It is a treat to Democracy and will turn off even more people from participating in the electoral system as a waste of time.

    342. Macart says:

      @Tam Jardine

      As with your post on the previous thread. Well said and I heat that.

      All of us first… or not at all.

      Tough choice.

    343. Ken500 says:

      University of Glasgow

      Professor John Curtice

      ‘Has Devolution Failed?’ Tuesday, May 10th at 6 PM.

      How can a BBC Corporation devour £3.7Billion of public money and produce such nonsense. x times.

    344. Marcia says:

      Despite the resources of the MSM both in print and electronic the SNP Government have won despite their biased reporting. It must really annoy them. LoL

    345. Phronesis says:

      Devolution has failed in that it has given Scotland a sense of partial self- governance and now we want absolute autonomy.

      Indyref 2 is coming – and the campaign should build on and learn from the work of Indyref 1 (a dress rehearsal).

    346. Robert Louis says:

      Some above have mentioned the awful propagandist BBC in Scotland, and how it is used to keep us Scots in line. A documentary by G A ponsonby, who has extensively documented how the BBC lied and deceived during the referendum, is now under production. Remember Nick Robinson, in front of the worlds press in Edinburgh, asking Alex Salmond a question, and getting two detailed answers, then standing on BBC 6, telling people ‘he didn’t answer’. Yeah all that and more.

      For any future referendum, I think it is imperative that this documentary is completed. It places ALL of what the disgraceful BBC did during the referendum, in context. It will serve as a lasting documentation of what the BBC did.

      They are seeking additional funding, and are only just over 1.5 k short. This is very important work, so please try to donate, if you can no matter how small the amount.

      It is a legit project, and the link is here;

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/how-the-bbc-stole-the-referendum-the-final-push#/

    347. Robert Louis says:

      Phronesis at 0753am

      Absolutely. We MUST make sure the holes in the last campaign are fixed. The ref may come sooner than any of us suspect.

    348. Marcia says:

      With the election over the candidates now have to lodge their election expenses returns to the Electoral Commission. It would be good if someone go through with a fine toothcomb the Tory and LD candidates expenses where they flooded constituencies with Post Office delivered leaflets. It might open a can of worms.

    349. MajorBloodnok says:

      Memo to self: do not leave the lid off the catnip jar again.

    350. Ken500 says:

      Cameron – ‘Brexit will cause War in Europe’. It goes from the ridiculous to the farcical. Complete and utter nonsense.

      From a PM of a Gov who has along with US and France have caused more strife and deaths in the Middle East and Europe/world, than any other. The worst migrant crisis in Europe since the 11WW.

      If people want donations for a cause. Put up a bank a/c details. They will get more funding.

    351. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 9 May, 2016 at 12:32 am:

      “you grow up peffers, who do you think you are? the oracle of fuckin’ Delphi”

      Here was me thinking I was just Robert Peffers of Kelty. When are you going to start acting like an adult?

      “im sure the snp will live with out me, i am just glad to be rid of a useless baggage”

      With attitudes like yours the SNP probably thinks the same about you.

      “it was you who started this thread on the tact that the greens and other indy parties are not to be trusted,”

      First up, I have never mentioned any other party. Nor have I made any comment about Jews. My sole mention of Jews was to point out that Jewish is not a nationality and Israeli is.
      “it is you who is dividing us, not me.”

      I’m not dividing anyone. I do not trust certain members of the Green Party and that is my right. Neither am I making idiotic, irrelevant, comments encompassing everything from ancient Greek seers to non-existent anti-Semitics.

      “personally i have had enough of yer bigoted narrow minded piffle, and im not afraid to say it”

      Bigoted? Where and what do you imagine I’m bigoted against? I don’t trust, and for good reason, certain members of the Green party who have indeed set Scottish interests back many years. You are behaving like a totally childish numptie and as for not being frightened to say it – we noticed that. Trouble is you are thrashing around like a spoiled child who is not getting their own way and throwing out false allegations in all directions.

      “No party, including the Greens and the SNP, are above criticism. no they are not”

      True.

      “but the indy movement is”

      False.

      “better still, save your criticisms for the unionists, they are the enemy, not the greens, rise or bella”

      Care to show where I have even mentioned Rise or Bella?

      “re read the article atl again peffers”

      Why would I need to do that. I understood it the first time I read it.

      ” oh and did i forget to tell you, i prefer small dogs… you can kick them further”

      No you didn’t forget to tell us that wee bit of immature idiocy and you thought it so good you had to tell us again.

      Now, as far as I am concerned you are an immature shit stirrer who should and, at least by me, be ignored.

      Awa an fecht wi yersel. I’ve had enough of your childish ranting. If you wish to view that as some kind of victory then feel as if you have won something – whatever it is.

    352. Robert Louis says:

      Majorbloodnok at 0807am,

      “Memo to self: do not leave the lid off the catnip jar again”

      I think we can have consensus to that.

    353. Craig Murray says:

      The Greens are not our enemy. I share your distrust of Harvie, but the majority of them are genuine believers in Independence. A number of them worked their guts out in the referendum campaign. There is no doubt whatsoever about, for example, Finnie and Wightman’s commitment to Independence.

      We should be reaching out to all pro-Indy people, not stigmatising those who don’t conform to a particular tactical view. Personally I am against so-called “positive” discrimination by gender anyway. People are people.

      Green votes will help us get Independence. The election is finished. Get over it. I am genuinely puzzled by the rancour here.

    354. Jim says:

      A party in opposition which will have to defend their Union and therefore their hierarchy in Westminster.

      No buck passing, plain and simple, which will make a change from the usual bunfight every thursday with Slab which hasn’t got a clue what it stands for anymore.

      Interesting times ahead methinks.

    355. Robert Louis says:

      Craig Murray, at 0818am

      Totally agree. Sadly there are some on here who have been ‘stirring the pot’, for their own reasons.

      Totally agree with you, that MANY of the ‘footsoldiers’ in the indy campaign were GREENS. Elections are always a messy business, but it is in the past. Now we work for independence.

      Well said.

    356. Grouse Beater says:

      Bloodnok: “Memo to self: do not leave the lid off the catnip jar again.”

      🙂

    357. Breeks says:

      I’m glad I’m not the only person feeling exasperated by the result, but we really need to listen to those Wee voices chirping out that the election was a very decent result. We should remember it was the SNP’s outright majority which defied the d’hondt laws of physics when it happened the first time.

      I kinda miss the YES camaraderie, but we need to remember that if YES was going to survive as a formal organism post 2014 referendum, it would have been a political lobby inevitably competing for votes with SNP and threatening to split the pro-Indy vote. The body and soul of the YES campaign isn’t dead, it’s been neatly folded and tucked away ready for next time. But we need to remember that while YES was an organisation of the people, there were overtly political factions within YES; some pre-dating it, others formed from post referendum alliances, and like it or not, the factions swim in the same political pond as the SNP and have to compete for resources.

      Comments yesterday about a second party standing for list seats suddenly felt like a jacket tailor made to fit YES at the shoulder, and I wondered briefly if we’d made a terrible strategic blunder. SNP for constituency seats, YES for list seats. It’s a fair possibility the Electoral Commission wouldn’t have stood for it, but you know, the devil me would have liked to seem forced to stop it happening.

      I expect what we’re going through is a rational response to defeat and the end of the dream in 2014 followed by success at the polls which we’ve allowed ourselves to look on as something approaching defeat and cause for recriminations. Believe it or not, that’s healthy provided its an exercise that clears the air and relieves the stress of imperfect alliances, but let’s get it out the way quickly and draw a line under it before frustration and exasperation turns into lasting acrimony.

      Truth be known, I worry about Rev Stu. I don’t mean that in reference to anything specific, but I know what it feels like to be surrounded by and obliged to engage with hostile idiots who can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t matter how strong you are at the beginning, it’s a pernicious environment where it can be real challenge to stay positive and constructive. Being right counts for nothing, and justice Is something which only other people get. The shit you leave behind on Friday night becomes the same shit waiting for you Monday morning but slowly over time your weekend recharge of the batteries seems less and less efficient. I fully commend your stamina Rev Stu, but remember thou art mortal. Take some of that fighting fund and have yourself a blast on a beach somewhere and tell us if that sky blue sea is as warm as it looks in the brochure. It’s called respite, and it’s a very sound investment.

    358. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 9 May, 2016 at 12:35 am:

      “Tam Jardine’s right, and while we get articles saying “I ‘ate greens”, or “Greens stole my porridge”, or “Greens are aholes”, cat’s right, why should he be the one to fuck off?”
      .
      Now I may be wrong but – I do not see anyone posting that they hate the Greens, have had their porridge stolen or the Greens are Arseholes.

      What I see is fairly mild distrust of certain Green Party actions and certain actions some people see as detrimental to Scottish interests. No party, including the SNP, are above criticism. I have criticised them myself and constructive criticism is in no way a bad thing. The point being that different parties are different for the very good reason they do not agree in some manner with other parties. That is a healthy thing in a democracy.

      The trouble with SC’s attitudes is twofold. First of all he would preclude any criticism whatsoever and he is throwing around idiotic accusations. He has accused people of everything from anti-Semitic bias to people acting like ancient Greek seers. The truth is all that has been said is, “I don’t trust the Greens”, or, “I don’t agree with all the Greens Policies”.

      SC’s reactions are well over the top and very, very childish. Certainly not what normal people would call mature debate. Far as I’m concerned I’ve had more than enough of such childish idiocy.

    359. Macart says:

      @Craig Murray

      No, it doesn’t look great to the average observer. At some point in the not too distant future we’re expected to pull our shit together and say ‘look at at how inclusive and tolerant we are. Gonnae give us your vote?’

      All parties and no parties reading from the same page, attending the same marches, manning the same stalls, smiling, singing and hopeful.

      Four years ago and till this very day I didn’t ask who anyone voted for. So long as they wore a YES badge, they were for democracy, a better way forward for ALL OF US and Scotland’s electorate. That’s all I wanted to know and that’s all I need to know.

      The first fucker in the street that asks me how I vote party wise at the next referendum, I plant on their arse.

    360. Grouse Beater says:

      Craig Murray: “the majority of [Greens] them are genuine believers in Independence.”

      Reading some of the backlog of posts I didn’t get the impression it was that personal, more a vote for a Green candidate is a wasted vote.

      Harvie is a good, common sense speaker, though he suggests the obvious, that independence is not a core belief of the Green party.

      For my part I have yet to see them fit for governance at any level. And that’s the whole point of standing as a candidate, isn’t it, whether you’re fit and competent?

      On the other hand, interventions made here calling all to calm down might be construed as inflammatory, as indeed drawing attention to that might also be divisive, if you catch my drift.

    361. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/events/915023971880843/

      Mitch Kilbride (Scot2.scot) & myself are booked up to join the convoy. we will be in Inverness on Frid afternoon, hoping to meet up with some northern Wingers.

      We,re the ones pulling a wee Trailer Tent.

    362. Fergus Green says:

      Good post Craig Murray 0818

      This is not a time to be dividing the pro-indy factions. I loaned my second vote to the SNP this time round but I respect those of a similar mind to my own choosing to stick with the Greens or their party of choice. We have a pro-indy parliament and I am happy to celebrate that.

    363. ScottieDog says:

      Come on folks,
      Time to turn the page. The real enemy is out there.

    364. louis.b.argyll says:

      Thank the maker, just read neoconats’ last ever post.

      Rambling about missing opportunity to win ‘hearts and minds’..

      WE DONT WANT TO WIN HEARTS AND MINDS.
      WE NEED TO CHANGE OUR SYSTEM, NOT JUST PULL THE WOOL OVER THIS OR THAT GROUP, TIL ALL GROUPS ARE APPEASED.

    365. Robert Peffers says:

      @Craig Murray says: 9 May, 2016 at 8:18 am:

      “The Greens are not our enemy. I share your distrust of Harvie, but the majority of them are genuine believers in Independence.”

      Indeed, Craig, and really that is all that has been said on this forum in relation to the Greens. The point is that some here have taken umbrage at nothing more than what you post in your comment. You say, “I share your distrust of Harvie”. I said, “I do not trust the Greens”.

      There is nothing wrong with being critical of any political party. In fact it is the basic reason there are different political parties in the first place. They have different policies.

      If they were all the same we would have only one party. The problem is that some people have gone way over the top and reacted like spoiled children throwing their toys out of the pram.

      Ridiculous accusations are flying around like bats in a belfry. I’ve decided to just ignore SC from now on as attempting any form of sane adult debate with SC is akin to banging ones head on a wall.

      The problem of arguing with such idiots is that you are tempted to lower yourself to their idiocy. It would be a very poor political debate if we were all compelled by such idiots from criticism of any party – including whatever party we personally support.

    366. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald:

      Labour’s deputy leader says party must back ‘home rule’ for Scotland after election disaster.

      https://archive.is/E6ptz

      Tories might be a sickly ‘green’ over the NP policy

      https://archive.is/xdNET

      Torrance: Thoughts on the aftermath.

      https://archive.is/uw1uN

    367. Dan Huil says:

      It’s a clear pro-indy versus anti-indy battle from now on until Scotland’s independence is regained.

    368. Bob Mack says:

      Couple of Wingers with real attitude problems last night.Hope they have sorted themselves out.

      I have read and re-read this article and can find nothing inaccurate. I think perhaps the Rev is reacting to a couple of articles on himself from members of Rise and others,all printed by Bella. If I was the Rev I would not be happy either considering he has selflessly promoted them all along.

      The beligerent posters should reflect how annoyed they became with just minor criticism on this site. The Rev has to deal with this shit 24/7 on OUR behalf and from sources which claim to support the same aims.

    369. And so, back to the real battle

    370. Famous15 says:

      The only Green action I take issue with is standing a candidate in Edinburgh Central and the appalling consequence of that. Tory arrogance and entitlement in your face.

      The list is not democratic because voters have no choice but to accept pre-cooked selection by parties.

      The clearest and most accurate advice given well prior to the election was by Wings over Scotland where you were advised to vote for the party of your choice but do not “game” the system,just not possible .

      Campbell is not Mystic Meg ,just a hard headed realist,my only wish he would soften on not suffering fools gladly and he would swearl less. FFS Stu you gotta be nicer to nutters!

    371. louis.b.argyll says:

      It’s the Tories, see.

    372. Kennedy says:

      Jimmy 10:44 pm

      Hopefully you are still around.

      The UK is a state where individuals care only for themselves. I’m allright Jack, sod everyone else.

      The Independent Scotland that i am voting for will be be a state where we all look out for each other. The wealthy can look after themselves but the poor need a helping hand.

      Some call it a socialist utopia. That in my opinion is just a label to put some folk off. The activist that helped you is just the sort we need in a reformed Scotland.

      I am sure i speak for many likeminded people when i say we should not bomb foreign people but instead help them, we should not horde money in banks that could flow around an economy that benefits all, plan for a future that does not destroy the planet for our kids and grandkids and care for the old and less well off.

      It doesn’t matter how you voted in the past but how you vote in the future does leave a legacy for our children.

      Hope you read this.

    373. ronnie anderson says:

      In refferance to Patrick Harvie does anyone remember seeing him with a Yes badge on his lapel pre Referendem I offered him one When BTT & PTC were under the horses erse at George Sq early rally,another politician who wont commit himself, but shows his face to garner votes.

      Tommy Sheridan to , will you be standing for a seat as a MSP, no its to early to say,he made the mistake of thinking he had popular support because 1000s of people attended Solidarity demonstrations & as we know many we,re Grassroots Independence supporters & members of many political persuasions.

      Colin Fox is another I had conversations with all jumping on the popularity of the Independence movement & jumping the gun thinking the had more supporters than they had, but he made the mistake was joining with RIC & expecting everyone of they,re supporters to except the newly formed party machine.

      I am unincumbered with no political affiliations & can & will criticise in equal measure.

      This election did,nt go as well as I thought ( splitting votes ) but undeterred I will soldier on.

      I dont nesseserily have to agree with every opinion, but can respect the person saying it.

    374. Ken500 says:

      Some folk just don’t get it they are part of the problem. They come to the defence of the Indy Greens, (fantasy policies) while they took delight in slanging off the controlling SNP who they profess to be members of and support. Then step in to tell everyone else calm down. It just gets more annoying and more irritating. The same as blaming voters who are now suppose to second guess a 2nd vote and vote for a Party they don’t even support to get the Gov they wish to see in place. Crazy.

      The voters who had no choice in the setting up of a system that was deliberately designed to have no overall majority (weak) to restrict the voters having control over their own affairs but still be under the control and manipulation of a 2nd Gov (UK) in which they have absolutely no overall control. Yet people wonder why people are complaining and are turned off the political system. Once again that is out of people’s control.

      Bateman brilliant.

      The reason why the SNP as a Party are so popular in Gov is because they have realistic policies (thought though). They make policies/promises which they know they can keep and do it. People know they are trustworthy. They are trusted and that makes them the most popular Party in the UK (pro rata). The reason people get so anxious and worried is because they do not want that to be taken away.

      The Tories are once more setting themselves up to fail.

    375. Anagach says:

      Can I just point out.

      The D’Hondt system is not setup to prevent an overall majority.

      It, like all proportional systems, attempts to reflect the percentage of the vote as closely as possible with the percentages of the representatives.

      So 60% vote in D’Hondt, would be close to 60% of the seats, +/- 3 or 4%.

      Its harder to get an overall majority than with FPTP, but that is not really saying much.

    376. Almannysbunnet says:

      Anyone who believes the SNP have done anything other than pull off a resounding win at the election needs to switch off their TV. We won, we didn’t break the D’hondt system for the second time in a row but we came damn close.

      I’m gutted that I now have a Tory in West Aberdeenshire. No excuse for this, we have the support but just didn’t get them out. Dennis Robertson fought a pretty insipid campaign and the Tories must have wasted several forests going by the bumph posted through my letter box. Stuart Donaldson thrashed Burnett of Leys in the General election but the constituency boundary is different for the Holyrood election. This is the first time a tory has been elected here in the Scottish election let’s hope it’s the last. The “Laird o Banchory” is pretty determined to get into politics but I’m sure his ambitions still lie in Westminster.

      We need to find a way to harness the joy of the yes campaign for these elections and have us marching to the poll booths instead of sitting at home naval gazing. Any answers on how to do that would be welcome.

    377. Inverclyder says:

      Call Me Dave

      Torrance: Thoughts on the aftermath.

      https://archive.is/uw1uN

      That’s a new low in journalism but at least we can see where he’ll be taking his writing over the next 5 years.

      OT
      North Korea expels ‘disrespectful’ BBC reporter Rupert Wingfield-Hayes

      Who would have thunk it!

    378. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      “Labour’s deputy leader says party must back ‘home rule’ for Scotland after election disaster.”

      It’s like the Labour clock runs years behind realtime!

      There was a solid democratic opportunity for someone to put a second Home Rule question onto the IndyRef Ballot. Labour and LibDems should have grabbed the opportunity with both hands. Nope.

      We don’t need to go over the Vow again, however, senior Labour people encouraged Scotland to vote NO for Home Rule (ish). Then Labour were probably the least generous with Smith!

      And now, the ba5tards start talking Home Rule, again. FFS.

      So, what’s going on? Labour stupidity, or the next tactic from the establishment to stop Indyref2?

    379. heedtracker says:

      A number of them worked their guts out in the referendum campaign. There is no doubt whatsoever about, for example, Finnie and Wightman’s commitment to Independence.

      We should be reaching out to all pro-Indy people, not stigmatising those who don’t conform to a particular tactical view.”

      It probably depends on whether or not you think last week was a step towards ref 2 and independence.

      If youre a Green, it probably depends on whether or not last week was a step towards ref 2 and independence or getting Green’s elected.

      As we can see from that Green commenter up there, we now have a small group that’s saying, be nice to us or we will block ref 2.

      The north east of Scotland is paying a very high price for Green blocking things for no visible reason, usually blocking development that England takes for granted.

      Donald Trump will tell you the same and so will Andy Murray. Blocking development doesn’t make you Green. Highland land reform doesn’t make you Green.

      Its all come down to a unionist v nationalist debate now for Scotland’s future. Is Scotland run better by our Tory neighbour or our own Holyrood government?

      In this BBC led yoon v nat struggle ahead, we now have Green’s trying to exploit it all, to get what they want, whatever that is and regardless of Scotland’s future.

    380. Bill McLean says:

      Distressed to read so many people on this thread doing the unionists job for them!

    381. MJT says:

      If Scotland is not ready for a referendum, never mind independence, then we really need to get our collective shit together and make Scotland ready.

      We can’t just wait around for this to happen and that to happen and hope for this or that. We have to do everything we can do, to best prepare the ground, to get that extra few % that folks talk about before we head into battle and name the day.

      There are so many things to do. One might think it woul be a good idea to get together, talk, make plans, strategies, see what’s what and what the priorities are…different strokes for different folks an aw that.

      To quote out of context…I see a lot of typists…I don’t see many writers. But there’s plenty writers, more than enough.

    382. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grouse Beater –

      That wee Vietnamese dude should be thankful it wasn’t Ruth Davidson be bumped into.

    383. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 9 May, 2016 at 9:28 am:

      ” … I dont nesseserily have to agree with every opinion, but can respect the person saying it.”

      That, Ronnie, says it all. All the bitterness being posted on wings just now is due to people NOT respecting the right of others to hold a different opinion to their own.

      That and making outlandish, and ridiculous, accusations of things not even said.

    384. G4jeepers says:

      Found this post by BillyO

      Don’t pay the BBC TV tax

      If, say every member of the public were to cancel directly funding the BBC but continued to defiantly and publically watch it, without paying, what could the BBC realistically do about it?

      Fine everyone? Jail everyone? This is doubtful.

      But say there was a fighting fund set up from revenues saved by not paying the TV tax, and a team of lawyers explicitly dealing with any court actions, surely if the volume of non payers exceeded the Beeb’s capacity to enforce it then it could be beaten in the same way as the poll tax.

      Maybe a job for Tommy Sheridan to organise since he’ll be at a loose end now.
      It could be started off immediately and massively by inviting those who already cancelled the TV tax to participate and give the BBC an unsurmountable workload at the outset.

      It could work and might get the state broadcaster to reassess the way it treats the paying public.”

      I like the idea of cancelling my TV licence THEN NOT removing implied right of access. Bring it on, let them pursue court action then let the lawyers do the work of putting the case for why I wouldn’t pay.

      A template from Mr Ponsonby or prof Robertson would suffice to prove the point as evidence, no?

      They’d be forced to defend themselves in open court and it could cost them a fortune if enough people joined the cause.

    385. Ruby says:

      According to Jackson Carlaw the big issues for the ‘Ruth Davidson We Are No Tories NO to referendum Opposition Party’
      are

      Named Person Act
      More college places
      No referendum

      https://archive.is/xdNET

      ‘Nicola Sturgeon set to win early battle over ‘state guardians’ as Greens offer olive branch to SNP’

      I wonder which party will vote for more part-time college courses in Origami & Flower Arranging?

      If they don’t win the NO referendum vote then the ‘We are Not Tories’ will ask the Tory Party at Westminster to block a referendum.

    386. heedtracker says:

      Bill McLean says:
      9 May, 2016 at 10:05 am
      Distressed to read so many people on this thread doing the unionists job for them!

      Have a hanky:-(

      Whatever this meant to be, apparently not wanting to pay even higher taxes on low wages means Scots are not left wing or progressive.

      http://newsnet.scot/commentary/holyrood-needs-independent-minds-flourish/

      “We also now know that the character of Scotland is not, in any significant way, inherently left wing or progressive.

      In part this can be seen by nationalist outriders bemoaning the existence and behaviour of ‘far left’ groups, even though the deviations from the centre offered by the Greens and RISE are often incremental and never revolutionary.”

      “If a great wave of disillusionment with New Labour propelled the SNP into power, the lack of any effective opposition has left the party free to tell us things can only get better. The clear limits being placed on this different, better, vision of Scotland are now obvious.”

      A great wave of disillusionment with this farce union propelled and continues to propel the SNP in power, not red tory right to rein over their Scotland region for ever.

      WTF is it with this guy Wightman?

      “Foremost amongst them in my own estimation is Andy Wightman — who has already turned the once obscure and opaque issue of who owns Scotland into a vital and pressing political concern.

      Andy was also one of the first on record to point out the significance of the referendum result, remarking on the night itself:

      “Looks like the poorest & most disadvantaged of Scotland’s citizens have cried the loudest for change. Responsibilities follow.”

      Lets find out which billionaire tax dodger owns Highland shooting estates and then what, nationalise Balmoral, give some nice middle class tenant farmers on the Borders, the right to not be evicted by Baron Macso and so?

    387. Marie Clark says:

      Bill McLean @ 10.05, second that Bill. I have had to just give up and stop reading, yesterday was just awful. Come on lads and lassie, we did actually win the election. I know it wasn’t the result that we had all hoped for, but it ain’t as bad as all that.

      You should all read Bob Peffers @ 10.17, good advice from our learned sage. Take heed.

      Lets have a little peace today. Remember, debate is good, but insults and accusations dinnie mak a reasonable debate.

    388. schrodingers cat says:

      G4jeepers

      encouraging people to not pay the tv licence is encouraging people to break the law, that is in itself a crime

      after sheridans first public declaration…he would be arrested

    389. Ruby says:

      I’m trying to figure out why people voted Tory especially in Central Edinburgh.

      1. That the ‘We Are Not Tories’ would be a more ‘effective’ opposition than Labour.

      I get that. Beating Kezia is nothing to crow about.

      2. No more IndyRefs.
      I get that because these voters are afraid that YES will win

      3. No Named Person Act
      I don’t get that.

      4. More college places
      I don’t get that.

    390. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian Brotherhood: “That wee Vietnamese dude should be thankful it wasn’t Ruth Davidson be bumped into.”

      That’s remark is due a pint and a wee half! Ha ha!

      (I posted pic on Wings and my Twitter site of Mone and the unfortunate wee man!)

    391. Ruby says:

      Anything wrong with just watching TV legally on the iplayer?

      Is the problem with that due to not being able to watch sport on SKY?

    392. Flower of Scotland says:

      Marie Clark@10.30am

      I agree Marie with you and Robert Peffers. I gave up too on my favourite blog.

      Some folk just go on and on and on.

      Today is another day. Let’s agree to disagree nicely, please.

    393. yesindyref2 says:

      Ironic that an article on Bella Caledonia basically saying “peace” between the pre-election camps, should also attract divisive comments. I tried to post like hey, that was the election feelings run high, people pushing their opinions, normal, but this is after the election time to move on it’s happened – but appear to still be banned. Tried dadsarmy but that also failed to show.

      Ah well. But it is time blog wars ended, and YES moves forward again. Tomorrow is another country, and it might just be Scotland.

    394. Flower of Scotland says:

      Meant to say, that there is a nice piece by Peter Bell over on Indy Ref2.

      It’s a letter to Alan Bissett.

    395. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Fascinating snippet from today’s The National (p.10):

      ‘…Nato has an operation running that made a rigged referendum in September 2014.’ Catalan nationalist David Raventos, currently on hunger strike.

      Particularly interesting is his use of ‘has’ – does anyone have any further information on what Raventos is alleging, and whether or not he has given fuller details elsewhere?

    396. Almannysbunnet says:

      @Ruby says:
      I’m trying to figure out why people voted Tory especially in Central Edinburgh.

      I honestly don’t think it’s possible to figure them out. By and large they are spoilers, the kind of people that burst a kids football if it goes in their garden. From what I’ve seen of the few attempts to interview them after the result, they ceckle away in joy at the misery of others. “Hee hee take that Sturgeon.”
      The irony is they surrender their will to a foreign government while screaming “no surrenda”. The tank commander tapped into their base instincts. A very dangerous ploy that exposes for all to see that she doesn’t care one whit for Scotland or its people. She would burn us all on a pyre of sectarianism for her glorious union.
      You can’t change them, the only way is to outnumber them.

    397. Fred says:

      Post-Mortem over, time to bury the corpse.

      Fred was off to Shetland for a week in June but sod that!

    398. Capella says:

      Re Andy Wightman. Here’s his blog
      http://www.andywightman.com/

      I think Scotland is unique in allowing anyone from anywhere to buy any amount of land and not pay a penny of tax on it because it’s registered in tax havens.

      Why is that the case? Because they make the laws through their Tory and Liberal pals and the House of Lords.

      A Danish estate owner pays tax in Denmark on land he owns in Scotland.

      The Swiss economist Sismondi noted in the 18th C that in Scotland they were clearing areas of land the size of German principalities in order to run sheep. That’s why most Scots live in cities or abroad.

      The same landowners built factories and breweries and needed cheap labour. By a happy coincidence the same people thrown off the land needed wages in order to survive.

      What can we do about this? Tax it. It’s not a reserved power.

    399. heedtracker says:

      What can we do about this? Tax it. It’s not a reserved power.

      Capella, there is one thing and one thing only we can do, vote YES for independence. It’s set back a bit by last weeks result but we all need to shut up now because we have Green MSP’s, who may vote YES but only if we’re nice to them.

    400. Capella says:

      Agreed. But how to persuade the majority to go out and vote for a fairer more equal country?

    401. Ruby says:

      Almannysbunnet

      I honestly don’t think it’s possible to figure them out.

      Ruby replies

      Cheers! Perhaps I could pretend to be one as I go out and about in Central Edinburgh and I may find out more. Perhaps I should get a ‘I heart Ruth’ badge! 🙂

      Ian Brotherhood says:
      9 May, 2016 at 10:49 am

      Fascinating snippet from today’s The National (p.10):

      ‘…Nato has an operation running that made a rigged referendum in September 2014.’ Catalan nationalist David Raventos, currently on hunger strike.

      Ruby replies
      Fascinating.
      Not a lot about it in the UK press

      Here’s link to the Google search for David Raventos huelga de hambre
      http://tinyurl.com/z96m6u2

      The articles are in Spanish/Catalan but there’s always Google translate.

    402. Petra says:

      Forget about statistics, the Greens and so on. Let’s move on as you can be rest assured that Moothy et all will be working hard on a strategy right now, led by Tomkins, to infiltrate colleges, universities etc etc … everything and anything … to boost their numbers.

      The BBC and corrupt media, our GREATEST enemy, will be lining up to put a spin on every last word that comes out of Holyrood: FOR Moothy (any anti-Independence voice) and AGIN Nicola.

      Let’s get focused and start supporting people like Ponsonby and Robertson.

      @ Robert Louis at 7:54am ….

      http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/how-the-bbc-stole-the-referendum-the-final-push#/

      Stuart you most be totally worn out and seem to be down with the result. Don’t be because it’s not as bad as you seem to think it is, excellent in fact when you think of all the doom and gloom propaganda that’s been spouted in relation to the oil situation, 15 billion black hole and so on. Don’t forget that it has been YOU who has contributed MOST of all to the Independence cause. This site is totally unique. Your articles picking up on media lies and distortions, on a daily basis, have educated thousands of others and through you, them and us have managed to combat the corrupt media propaganda machine (not Bella et al). No mean task. They, SCUM, didn’t win. YOU DID.

      Can you imagine what the result could have been like if it hadn’t been for you? I shudder to think. We NEED you Stuart. Take a break. Head off to the Bahamas or whatever and come back refreshed and ready to battle on. You could even think of buying a boat out there, anchor it in International waters and do a Radio Caroline on them (fund raised by us), lol.

      Anyway it’s a beautiful day where I am. Hope it is for you too. A couple of songs you may have heard your grandparents or parents sing. May even have sung yourself.

      We live in a fantastic country that is home to millions of fantastic people: something to REALLY fight for. C’mon let’s do it x

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmfirMJb9-M

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWewSMeh6hg

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64uikGn-q3k

    403. Grouse Beater says:

      Time up for internal-focusing!

      To the real world and implementing Tory policies as fast as they can hand them out.

      Buying education: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-6RH

    404. heedtracker says:

      Capella says:
      9 May, 2016 at 11:40 am
      Agreed. But how to persuade the majority to go out and vote for a fairer more equal country?

      Personally, its the economy stupid, industry and commerce, the fundamentals that make our neighbours wealthy and fair. Look at England and the south east, Norway, Belgium, Denmark and so on.

      All have one common denominator, they all run their own countries economies. Right now, England runs its scrounger region of Scotland, for our own good you see, with just enough making a good living to vote NO and Ruth Davidson, and a third of it on giant UK.gov borrowing. Its all up to the majority now.

      Patrick Harvie says he’s going to get stuck in to the SNP’s addiction to oil and gas, here he explains SNP position is wrong, which means who knows what

      https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/166149/delusion-scottish-politicians-oil-price-slump/

      BBC tory propaganda gives Bojo a whole hour of national BBC tv for his vote tory speech this morn, Slab want tax hikes on low pay, Green’s know Holyrood has nothing whatsoever to do with oil and gas. Its all run by our neighbours, every last evil drop of it. Another day for the Scotland region in toryboy teamGB farts along.

    405. Ruby says:

      Having read Grouse Beater’s article about education I found the solution to the Tories request for more college places.

      Turn all the technical colleges that became universities back to being colleges!

    406. CameronB Brodie says:

      test

    407. CameronB Brodie says:

      I was only asking if we can have Will unblocked, just for this post, please?

    408. CameronB Brodie says:

      Duh, wrong thread.

    409. CameronB Brodie says:

      No, it was the correct thread. I’ll away back to bed and try starting the day again. Sorry folks.

    410. CameronB Brodie says:

      Grrrr. It was the wrong thread, after all. I quit.

    411. ronnie anderson says:

      @ G4jeepers
      Had that covered over a year since, I asked John Robertson if I were taken to court for non payment , I would invite him to present his Bias report on my behalf & I would do the mince part ( legalease) then of for a Lunch. There would be no more prosecutions after that. I always recommend if people are being taken to court submitt John Robertsons reports no judgement can be made, until the court has read the reports especially the Muppet Courts ( Magistrates).

      DONT PAY THE BIAS BBCs LICENCE FEE.

    412. Tam Jardine says:

      Bob Mack 9.12am

      Hi Bob

      Not sure if I am one of the belligerent posters you describe re disagreement last night. I try and be constructive and bring things back to focus on the real enemies we face.

      I have made my point about this article already and stand by it and would ask that you take the first instance of me taking exception to one of Stu’s articles as a criticism that was not made lightly or without due consideration.

      I can only reiterate- we do not have the luxury of alienating 1% of pro-indy voices.

      There were 2 tactics available for the election- both votes SNP or 1st vote SNP, 2nd vote green and we of course ended up falling between those 2 tactics. The unionists had no such difficulty and they had a media able to promote that division, depress the SNP vote and attack the SNP relentlessly.

      Anyway- people get upset because it IS upsetting and there is too much at stake. We are all grown ups who can move on in the spirit of respect Ronnie mentions.

      All the best

      Tam

    413. Peter Macbeastie says:

      With specific regard to Ross Greer, who is basically my only solid reason for not voting Green second in the election because he’s an odious little shit, he made the statement about size eighteen women in the real world, to someone’s face, not on social media, and then failed to respond when she somewhat pissed off asked him what exactly he meant by that.

      So this, posted by Truth, doesn’t really stand up to any scrutiny as he never so much as tried to justify his position.

      ‘@valerie

      Please understand I’m not defending Greer, but I think the point he was making is that being that size is not ethically green as you are using more resources than you need.’

      I am not much a fan of gender quotas either but if the Greens are they could simply have ensured half the top candidates on their lists were female. Ross Greer, I’m sure, would be missed by absolutely no one if his sleekit wee frame was bumped out of the picture.

    414. Capella says:

      @ heedtracker
      Still agree. Still think we have to persuade more people to vote YES.
      Tax the rich and help the poor. That’s my advice to Nicola. Free.

    415. Fred says:

      @ Peter Macbeastie, you appear to be suspiciously well versed on women’s sizes kid? The Greer fella’s young, big wummen probably scare the shit out of him. Churchill was an arse at his age, did he grow out of it?

      Wee Patrick’s the very boy for the gender balance anyhow, he was announced as bi-sexual at the women’s George Square bash! Long as it’s no compulsory! 🙂

    416. galamcennalath says:

      If Ruth Davidson wants to do something for Scotland, it’s not the FM she needs to be talking to.

      She needs to start on Cameron, IDS, and Osborne.

    417. Bill McLean says:

      Heedtracker – thanks for your mature and thoughtful response to my post at 1005.

    418. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Hello again. I hope everyone’s has calmed down by now. Like everyone, it’s a worry that the cause of independence may possibly have had a knock back, and thus somewhat trying, but the course of politics rarely runs smooth. Let’s try to avoid being “glass 3% empty” people (2 short out of 65) and instead remember to be “glass 97% full”!

      The subject of this thread was unnecessarily provocative, IMO. It’s easy to get diverted into displaced annoyances, and the Unionists would love nothing better than for the pro-indy groupings to start squabbling among themselves. None of the parties are perfect, so there’s no point in nit-picking. The only quibble that I have with the Greens in particular is with their standing in constituencies. We have to concede that they have a perfect democratic right to put their case along with everyone else, but in doing so they clearly put selfish party interests first – it was most definitely not a friendly pro-indy stance. That arrogance could have cost Sandra White a seat in Glasgow and gave Ruth Davidson a propaganda coup in Edinburgh.

      That having been said, it’s better to keep in mind that it’s Labour who have been the real difficulty to be overcome, and they have been resolutely thrashed. That could well unhinge them completely. I agree 100% with galamcennalath upthread this morning, their most likely next move is to start promoting “federalism” in a vain attempt to recover from their dog-in-manger tactics with Smith after the infamous “Vow”.

      The only Labour politician for whom I have any time is Henry MacLeish – to my mind he was the only one of the lot who acted fairly during the indyref – and he was promoting this direction on telly in the aftermath of the election. Alas he just doesn’t seem to understand that (a) it’s “too little too late”, (b) not everyone in Labour agrees with him anyway, and (c) such a UK-wide strategy puts Labour in the hands of the Tories at Westminster in exactly the same way as the AV referendum did for the FibDems and currency union did for Yes during the indyref. A “New Act of Union” might have its uses as a further distraction, “Vow Mk.2”, and get the assistance of thinking Tories such as Tomkin, but the English are quite happy for things to stay just as they are, so it just ain’t going to happen.

      In a way I hope Labour do take that route – it will be their third unionist alliance and each one has brought them down further. It will simply highlight their insincerity after assuring us so very earnestly that Calman and then Smith was each the very last word on Home Rule.

    419. Conan the Librarian™ says:

      As I have said before, we independentistas are an argumentative bunch.
      We need a common enemy that is worth the name. The Greens aren’t it; nor are the pseudointellectuals that inhabit Bella.

      Shall we try targeting the Tories? Just a thought.

    420. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      The Tories and rLabour – and the Lib Dumbs – in Scotland…

    421. Auld Snody says:

      The box has been opened and it appears Schrödinger’s cat is dead. Sometimes you should just keep the box shut

    422. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Auld Snody @ 23:09, 10.May said:

      The box has been opened and it appears Schrödinger’s cat is dead.

      Ah, but by the laws of physics, a parallel universe was also created in which the cat was very much alive.

      In fact since (s)he is happily still posting here, we are evidently in that other one!

      Mind you, it’s a sobering thought to realise there is probably yet another parallel universe in which we are all enjoying the early fruits of independence. Lucky b*st*rds!



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