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Wings Over Scotland


Scottish Labour Party Of The Day

Posted on November 03, 2015 by

The award goes to…

emptyawards

Edinburgh Pentlands Constituency Labour Party!

It started like this:

epent1

We felt obliged by basic decency to point out the screamingly obvious: whenever you have a list of statistics, SOMEONE always has to end up at the bottom of it, even if in reality they’ve performed almost as well as everyone else:

epent2

Despite the BBC’s almost comically negative headline, the story that was being linked to in the tweet actually seemed to be good news:

“Across the country, A&E departments overall met the key waiting times goal, with 95.4% of all patients completing their treatment within four hours. The government’s target is 95%.

It was the third successive month that Scottish hospitals have achieved their waiting time target, with the figure of 95.4% the second best since July 2013.”

But to Pentlands Labour it was an outrage:

epent3

He (for we believe the person in charge of the account to be our beloved old friend Dr Scott Arthur – no, not the healthcare kind of doctor) posed a question:

epent4

He didn’t like our answer:

epent5

Which was a weird response, because 95.4% is NOT “missing waiting time targets”, it’s the opposite thing – it’s hitting them. Even NHS Lothian, which was the “worst” region according to the BBC headline, had managed 94%, just 1% short.

(Two of the three other areas which missed the 95% target for four-hour treatment did so by only fractions, with scores of 94.6% and 94.7%. The actual worst was Ayrshire and Arran on 92.5%, so we’re not sure why the BBC picked on Lothian.)

As it happened, an alert reader dug out the Bath stats before we could:

epent6

Bath had in fact done quite considerably worse than any NHS authority in Scotland. That made our hero a bit grumpy:

epent8

But could we tell how good (or not) Labour really were at “defending the NHS”?

Well, in other figures the number of patients who’d had to wait over 12 hours in all of Scotland (population 5.3 million) was just 99, with 92 of those being in Lothian.

In order to compare, we could look at the solitary area of the UK where Labour is in charge of the NHS: Wales (population 3.1 million). And by a fortuitous happenstance, the Welsh NHS has also just published its A&E waiting-time stats.

epent7

With Scotland being 1.7 times as populous as Wales, 2000 Welsh patients waiting over 12 hours for treatment under Labour would be the equivalent of 3,400 in Scotland, rather than the actual Scottish number of 99 under the SNP. (The Welsh figure for treatment within four hours was 84%, more than 10% below Scotland’s.)

Dr Arthur’s been quiet on Twitter for a while now.

tweed

We’ll pass the award on to someone for him.

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    254 to “Scottish Labour Party Of The Day”

    1. Donald MacKenzie says:

      There you go ruining another excellent ‘SNP Bad’ story by introducing facts into the argument.

    2. Croompenstein says:

      Shouty doctor bawjaws goes silent…

    3. Iain More says:

      Not even the tumbleweed would be seen deid in the company of SLAB propagandists at the BBC or the Brit Nat awards.

    4. What is this sinister Scottish Labour/BBC Scotland coming up with simultaneous, similar turns of phrase to rubbish snp & all its works. Labour would be demanding a public enquiry if it was the other way around

    5. yesyoucan says:

      “so we’re not sure why the BBC picked on Lothian”

      I think we are all seeing a pattern here.

    6. Itchybiscuit says:

      Aye, yer a Rank SNPBajin right enough.

    7. Great post, one minor quibble:

      “The total number of patients who’d had to wait over 12 hours in the whole of Scotland …”

      The target is often quoted as such but is in fact those who were in A&E for over 12 hours before being discharged home, to a ward or other facility. They have not been waiting for 12 hours to be seen or treated. Indeed, for some patients, it may take more than 12 hours to get sufficient tests done to diagnose what’s wrong with them. Likewise, if a hospital’s intensive care unit is full, A&E could well be the safest place to keep seriously ill patients until a bed becomes available.

    8. gillie says:

      If it were me I wouldn’t let Labour politicians nor the BBC anywhere near our NHS. These f*****s don’t deserve treatment free at the point of delivery.

    9. K1 says:

      Do they all jist sit lookin’ at social media waiting for a devolved issue to appear then pounce wi a big ‘Gotcha’ on any story that aligns wi their hatred of the SNP before being shown up for the idiots that they are?

      Was it always like this? Is this what happened when Labour were running the Executive?

      Numpties one and all fallin’ over themselves to prove that Scotland is shit.

      Fucking shameless shower of bastards.

    10. AnneDon says:

      I thought the Scottish NHS must be meeting targets when Eleanor Bradford did a piece last week on Distorting SCotland claiming that targets were a waste of time and money, and approvingly interviewing Welsh NHS employees whose targets had been removed.

      #SNPbad #LabourGood all in one story!

      That Labour Pentlands Twitter account has been picking fights with everyone for the past few days.

      Hold on for the inevitable “Vile Cybernats – Sturgeon must condemn” when someone rises to the bait.

      Or even if they don’t.

    11. gordoz says:

      Pppfffff !!!

      Love it when a big mouth is shut up by the facts.

      (Unionists don’t you just love them for the novelty value at least ?)

    12. Jimbo says:

      What a sorry bunch of inept, puerile tossers Labour in Scotland are.

      As per usual when Labour in Scotland try playing at one-upmanship they always end up with egg on their collective face.

    13. McDuff says:

      They just don`t like being confronted by the truth.
      Another cracker Rev.

    14. gerry parker says:

      Basic rule of boxing. Do not lead with the chin! You’d think they would learn.

      Well done Stu.

    15. gordoz says:

      Think Alex Salmond had a saying about this kinda Doctor

    16. hamish says:

      Sir! How dare you allow facts to get in the way of polical spin.

    17. Free Scotland says:

      What’s up, Doc?

    18. scotsbob says:

      NHS Scotland have achieved their target for the last three months and exceeded it this month.

      Do Labour and the BBC praise our health workers for doing so well?

      Let us see how many of our hard working health employees vote for Labour at the Holyrood elections.

    19. X_Sticks says:

      You’d have made an awesome fish wife Stuart Campbell 😉

    20. Arabs for Independence says:

      And his face was shut. Great work

    21. Fiona says:

      The puzzle for me is why these people distort stuff to make things seem bad. I get they don’t like the SNP: but this sort of thing worries people unnecessarily, and it is not really fit for political point scoring for that reason

    22. ArtyHetty says:

      I am sure I read somewhere, possibly on here the other day, about someone who had to drive around london for a couple of days just to find an A and E, when the person broke their leg or something.

      EBC think that if they say SNP bad every minute of every day, that the people of Scotland will see sense and vote for slab next year.

      No going back now, SNP are doing a great job under the circumstances and the people know that.

    23. muttley79 says:

      Imagine a major political party in Scotland being controlled by a clique around the likes of Kezia Dugdale, Ian Murray, Jackie Baillie and co. Just how embarrassing, soul destroying, completely demotivating, and all spirit crushing would they be? Even their most prominent activists, such as Duncan Hothersall and Dr Scott Arthur have a SNP Bad default mode, along with their politicos…

    24. Bob Mack says:

      Nothing could shut that particular big mouth.
      He envisages himself as a potential candidate according to a girl on facebook who knows him from EITHER Uni or college.
      Lives in a big house

    25. Graeme Reid says:

      I am not 100% sure . But I seem to remember a joust back in the day (before KD took the keys for the office) at FMQ’s regarding A and E waiting times. The figures that Labour were complaining about back then (re the SNP) were higher than Labour ever achieved in their time at Holyrood. Q red faces. I think the highest they achieved constantly was about 87% falling to a stinking low. A historic fact check wouldn’t go amiss from 1999 to 2007 re Labour figures.

    26. dakk says:

      Thanks for that Stuart,I was almost beginning to believe we were shite.

      Methinks however it is still BBC,Labour,and the Daily Record that is shite.

      Sorry Grousebeater, couldn’t resist that.

    27. The Isolator says:

      Ffs Rev you don’t half get involved with some absolute roasters out there in twitter land.

    28. Stoker says:

      Simplified message to Unionist droids:

      SNP run Scotland – 5.3 million population – 99 people wait 12hrs.
      Lab run Wales – 3.1 million population – 2000 people wait 12hrs.

      Do the math and GTF, lickspittles!

    29. Fran says:

      So the doc thinks Labour are defending the NHS? As far as I can see they have done nothing but attack the SNHS just to try and score political points.

      That’s a bad own goal tonight doc. Making careless mistakes like that its just as well he’s not a REAL doctor with a scalpel.

    30. George dunn says:

      Gotta love pent land labour their candidate is Scott Arthur a well know better together campaigner so it’s expected they are going to be dim

    31. K1 says:

      I’m glad he gets involved wi the roasters…cause it turns out they could be the next ones on the list and potentially have a say in the running of our country in the future.

      Best we get to know them on their way ‘up’ and get them tae…before they climb any higher doon the slippery Labour ladder.

    32. Big Jock says:

      It’s incredible how the BBC can spin a headline by taking a fact in isolation. They also ignore the stats in the headline.

      The reader thinks feck NHS Lothian is a mess. But it’s not it’s better than its ever been. Miles better than when Labour introduced Pfi.

      But incredibly nearly 10% better than middle class Bath.

      But once you have read Ponsombys book about how the BBC Stole the referendum, you totally get what their game is.

    33. Lanarkist says:

      Perhaps Lothian NHS are suffering from the PFI extortion that Labour imposed on them for the new Edinburgh Royal.

      How much is being extracted from their budgets through the lend lease?

      Perhaps this money might have better used in patient care and technical/infrastructure improvements.

      Why not concentrate on New Super Hospital built on time under budget under SNP and magnify all perceived failings!

    34. Clootie says:

      Oh well! Another 6 months of SNP bad stories and BBC specials about how the Scottish Government “failed” someone, somewhere on something.

      The Scottish Labour Party are so consumed with hatred of the SNP that they cannot see that they are being used against their fellow citizens by the BT club.

      If only they would put the same effort into opposing the Tories…but that would break the Westminster club rules.

      Do they never discuss the huge gulf between the grassroots movement and their MPs. Talk about an elephant in the room.

    35. BigMac says:

      What an asset you are for us W o S. Going into the May election the Unionist parties must be wondering how they could shut you down.
      They criticise the NHS and then expect the people working in the NHS to vote for them. Thick or what.

    36. desimond says:

      Bang goes Kezia’s next rant.

      How many times do they have to be shown up before they actually consider co-operation over confrontation.

    37. caz-m says:

      Call Kaye came up with a plan this morning that would take the shine right off of these fantastic waiting time figures.

      She organised a one hour long phone-in this morning about how Scottish nurses are the most overweight in Western Europe.

      Don’t you just love BBC Scotland.

    38. Grouse Beater says:

      By refusing to support Scotland’s economic interests and its ideals, the only way for Labour to think it gains political momentum is to denigrate the very institutions and services by which its membership live and survive.

      It is a preposterous position in which to place oneself.

      Their stance is glaringly self-defeating.

      If caught up in the French revolution Labour would look at the guillotine and complain to the hangman, “The blade’s not sharp enough”.

    39. Morgatron says:

      Is he Doctor of Who or Kiss Kiss , though he does appear to be very very stupid.

    40. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Looks like the Good Doctor should heed the old adage. Physician(not), heal thyself!

    41. Schrodingers cat says:

      http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/events/4478388

      Ot

      I had thought Jim sillars might retire, glad he didn’t

      Is it just me or is he speaking a lot of sense?

    42. jimnarlene says:

      People in glass houses, eh? Those damned pesky facts, gets them every time.

    43. Jim says:

      SNHs waiting targets being met, Police Scotland precide over the lowest crime rates in decades, free education, free school meals for all, mitigation of council tax, etc, etfuckingcetra!

      Excuse me for shouting, but WTF IS THEIR FUCKING PROBLEM.

      They want us to go back to SLabour past when crime and waiting times in hospitals were high.

      WELL FUCK YOUR GOOD OLD DAYS YOU SELF ENTITLED BASTARDS!!!

    44. JBS says:

      Tumbleweed Non-Connection.

      The Labour Party in Scotland will never consider co-operation over confrontation. They are too arrogant, still have too much of a sense of entitlement. One day soon they will disappear into the black hole of their own stupidity.

    45. Spa_town says:

      Also, waiting to be admitted, transferred or discharged isn’t the same as waiting to be assessed or treated.

    46. Anne Bruce says:

      No chance of this NHS worker voting for slab. I’m sick of health being used as a political football by the EBC and the Labour branch to try to score points over the SNP government.

      It’s de-moralising and insulting to be constantly under attack by f-wits like Dugdale, Bradford et al.

    47. Gary45% says:

      Nice one Stu,

      The Northern Branch Office seem to make a total arse of themselves at every opportunity.

      The hole they are digging just gets deeper and deeper.
      And as for K wi an E, fae the valleys
      ” A waste of skin”
      Tick Tock.

    48. dramfineday says:

      First class Stuart, bullseye yet again. Labour and the BBC are an absolute shower.

    49. Robert Peffers says:

      The old Scottish saying that, “Ye canna mak a silk purse frae a soo’s lug”. Is very, very true and the Scottish Branch Office of the Labour Party is, “ane muckle soo’s lug.

      You can confirm that as fact by asking that well known expert on all things Suidae – The Rt Hon David Cameron MP.

    50. Richardinho says:

      Ah but the reason the Scotland gets a gold plated NHS is because Scotland gets all that money from England blah blah….

    51. Truth says:

      Now, any rational person when presented with such a shattering challenge to their belief system would reassess those said beliefs.

      It seems a lot of the remaining labour stalwarts aren’t capable of doing this, or are afraid to conclude they have been wrong. Their pride is holding back a nation. Keeping our kid’s opportunities limited is a price worth paying for their cowardice it seems.

      Anyway, well done to all those hard working Scottish NHS staff. A big thanks from me too for only keeping me waiting an hour and a half in a&e with my son the other Sunday.

    52. dakk says:

      The only noteworthy story regarding Lothian today was ;

      Montrose 1 : 2 Lothian Thistle Hutcheson Vale

      in the Scottish Cup

      But that’s the BBC Scotland for you.

    53. Robert Peffers says:

      @Schrodingers cat says: 3 November, 2015 at 10:37 pm:

      “I had thought Jim sillars might retire, glad he didn’t

      Is it just me or is he speaking a lot of sense?”

      Och! Jim has always talked a lot of sense. Never complete sense – but most certainly a lot of sense. I have a lot of time for Jim. I first met him on trade union business long before he gained national prominence.

    54. Peter Craig says:

      Message to GMS- Scottish Nurses may be fat,but they do their job very well. Unlike Pacific Quay Fatcats.

    55. Robert Peffers says:

      @Anne Bruce says: 3 November, 2015 at 10:53 pm:

      “It’s de-moralising and insulting to be constantly under attack by f-wits like Dugdale, Bradford et al.”

      Not to worry, Lass, the majority of the rest of us think you are all wonderful. We are indeed proud of you all and your dedication to do us all proud.

    56. Jim says:

      Lord Foulkes: The SNP are on a dangerous tack at the moment,” he said. “What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where the services are manifestly better than south of the Border in a number of areas.”

      A clearly bemused MacKay responded with the obvious question: “Is this such a bad thing?”

      “No,” replied George Lord, “but they are doing it deliberately.”
      _____________
      Some people think this is a spoof, how the fuck could someone be such a fucking imbecile, well her is the proof that he did indeed say this:

      http://www.scotsman.com/news/the-diary-1-1159662#axzz3qTO7E2aq

    57. Anagach says:

      Is it worth even complaning to the BBC. I saw the headline and hey presto in para 2 or 3 it accepted that the (already high) target of 95% had been met.

      If they keep this, crisis in SNHS, hysteria headlines up, when the actual story is targets met, then no one but no one will believe them on anything.

    58. caz-m says:

      O/T

      Does Jackie Baillie know something the rest of her Party don’t?

      Here’s the list of the 17 Holyrood MSPs who voted AGAINST Trident renewal.

      Conservative MSPs.

      Ruth Davidson (Glasgow)

      Jackson Carlaw (West Scotland)

      Alex Fergusson (Galloway and West Dumfries)

      Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife)

      Alex Johnstone (North East Scotland)

      John Lamont (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire)

      Annabel Goldie (West Scotland)

      Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife)

      John Scott (Ayr)

      Mary Scanlon (Highlands and Islands)

      Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland)

      Nanette Milne (North East Scotland)

      Liberal Democrat MSPs.

      Jim Hume (South Scotland)

      Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands)

      Alison McInnes (North East Scotland)

      Tavish Scott (Shetland Islands)

      Labour MSPs.

      Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton)

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/holyrood-rejects-trident-renewal-full-list-msps-who-voted-against-scrapping-nuclear-deterrent-1527048

    59. uno mas says:

      A wee bedtime story for you all.

      I spent the afternoon today in the enjoyable company of two friends, a married couple, elderly retired who hail from the south of England (can´t get any further south) he an Englishman and she an Anglo Welsh many years past, who had come out to spend some time at their house here in the part of Spain where I live.

      They are a charming couple, intelligent, educated and very worldly and very different from the Mondeo driving Daily Mail reading type of personality that is so prevalent here in the “ex pat” community

      As the afternoon wore on we “Talked of many things. Of shoes and ships and sealing-wax,
      of cabbages and kings, and why the sea is boiling hot, and whether pigs have wings.”

      And so eventually the topic of conversation turned to the question of Scottish independence.

      I endeavored to show them why the SNP Government in Hollyrood is so popular by highlighting some of their outstanding successes and included in those the wonderful new Southern General Hospital.

      in doing so I gave them some examples of the type of bad news and scare stories that the media, led by the BBC who provided the bona fide for much of this scurrilous behaviour, use to belittle and demean the achievements of the Scottish Government.

      I sensed that my explanations and stories were being met by a certain amount of scepticism and noticed my friend tapping the screen oh his smart phone.

      “Lets open up the BBC Scotland news page” he said and we waited a few moments while it loaded.

      His next reaction was to smile and say “Oh muy” and pass the phone to his wife who looked at the screen and said “good grief that´s outrageous!” and pass the phone to me so that I was able to read the “Infected baby dies in new super hospital” headline.

      I realised then that my work was done for another day and that there were now two less people in society that I have to convince about the to the dirty propaganda war that the msm is fighting on the behalf of the British establishment with the aim of thwarting the democratic process and two more people who in future will view all information offered by the BBC and the msm in general with a good deal more scepticism.

      Made my day that did.

      As for the BBC employees who thought it was a good wheez to use the death of an infant as a propaganda tool to discredit the Scottish government, shame on you!

      When will you realise how morally wrong behaviour like this is?

      WHEN PIGS HAVE WINGS?

    60. Phronesis says:

      We should all be equally concerned about the viability of delivering primary care and general practice services when many GP practices are on the brink of closing-however there is a clear north/south divide.

      http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/hot-topics/stop-practice-closures

      A complex issue -the NHS across the UK is straining to cope with demand and unmet need in the face of budgetary restraints and managing the complexity of long term conditions and population demographics.

      NHS England is not helped by a government hoping to divide and distract the medical and nursing professions and manipulate public opinion as they continue with their 30 year agenda of privatising the NHS. Many of these practices will be in areas of high deprivation and if the local population do not have access to adequate primary health care then health inequalities widen and 2y care costs increase. Perhaps that is the long term goal implicit in the UK government’s duplicitous approach to health care in NHS England. Will the recommendations of the think tank REFORM of an NHS £10 fee collected with council tax be implemented? Doesn’t sound a lot but if you’re living on the breadline it is.

      Solving the NHS care and cash crisis: Routes to
      health and care renewal. Lord Norman Warner and Jack O’Sullivan. Reform March 2014

      Credit to Scotland’s government for maintaining a nationalised service and defending the ethos of universally accessible health care -many challenges ahead but they are collaborating with and not constantly undermining the hard working NHS Scotland staff who work beyond their job descriptions and contracted hours.

      The WM ruling elite only does toxic politics, divisive ideologies and zombie economics-the map of GP closures is one of many examples of the consequences of that agenda.

    61. Legerwood says:

      It is worthwhile remembering that until April 2006, when Labour were in power in Holyrood, A&E data was collected through an ANNUAL survey covering either a 3 or 7 day period.

      This included an estimate of the hospital’s performance against a 4 hour wait target.

      The survey covered only a set of core hospitals until 2006 when it was extended to all A&E departments including minor injury clinics.

      A summary of the the historical data to April 2006 can be found here:http://www.isdscotland.org/Health-Topics/Emergency-Care/Emergency-Department-Activity/Statistics/Survey-2006.asp

      From June 2006 the A&E figures were collected and published quarterly. ( links to data from link above)

      From June 2006 to March 2007, just before Labour left office, the figures for NHS Lothian A&E waiting times were:
      June 2006 80.7%
      Sept 2006. 83.4%
      Dec 2006 90.1%
      Mar 2007 86.7%
      The average attendance each quarter was around 51,000 visits or so.

      So for much of the time Labour were in power in Holyrood the data was collected annually and was really just a snapshot of the whole system but even at that they did not do too well.

      Worth remembering when they start their SNP bad mantra with regard to A&E performance.

    62. Chitterinlicht says:

      Goodness your a bad man throwing those publicly available stats about and putting them into some kind of context so as they mean something .

      Pure evil so you are.

      What a bunch if clowns.

      Just making themselves look daft.

    63. This is from the Information Services Division: ISD Scotland the ones that publish the Scottish NHS data.

      `10) The waiting time is defined as the time of arrival until the time of discharge, admission or transfer.

      12) ISD and NHS Boards are reviewing a small number of very long waits in the A&E datamart after it became apparent that a proportion of waits over 12 hours reflect errors in recording,and are not genuine long waits.`

      Their were 137,080 A&E attendances in September of which 99 resulted in being recorded as in A&E over 12hours,I wonder how many were errors in recording given the anomaly that 92 out of 99 were in Lothian.

      http://tinyurl.com/q3qphdb

    64. Douglas Macdonald says:

      On Googling Dr. Scott Arthur, I discovered that he is some sort of civil engineer and noted that he was chairing some meeting about blockages in drainage systems. It would seem that working in this environment, is it any wonder that his mind runs like a sewer, which keeps getting clogged up?

      However, what troubles me most about him is why such a man, who works professionally with much more complex numbers and reaches satisfactory conclusions, should fail to judge accurately simple percentages and targets. He obviously thought nothing about what damage he might do to his professional reputation. Perhaps his mind got clogged with too many SNP BAD thoughts yet again.

    65. Capella says:

      O/T (well it’s about a time travelling nurse – a thin one)
      Outlander’s Ron Moore on filming in Scotland.
      Shelley Jofre interview. Asks about it not being broadcast in UK. Ron Moore thinks it is OK that Amazon is showing it but admits that lack of broadband may be a problem for some.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-34709632

      Second series filmed in Prague and Cumbernauld. Maybe that Culture budget would help fund a permanent film studio.

    66. K1 says:

      Jim, here is that article archived…

      https://archive.is/5MmGc

    67. Chic McGregor says:

      Facts are chiels that winna ding
      Bit winna stoap the Slabber’s spin.

    68. Richard Smith says:

      Is that Kezia’s tumbleweed from last week?

    69. ElaineS says:

      Scott Arthur is an absolute prick, I remember him well when he trolled Yes Kirkcaldy page throwing negative comments, left right and centre calling down SNP. They talk about some Yes members being obsessive but Arthur was really mental in his determination to do all to discredit Yes/SNP. We had to block him, then he had about 4 Twitter No pages, bitching and sniping and most of all lying and distorting the facts and I wondered how the hell he is still in employment at Napier Uni. Personally students who are Yes and SNP should be worried how he tutors them, his hatred of all things Yes/SNP is bound to filter down to his uni students who are in the Yes/SNP group. He then was famous for being the heckler on the debates, him and Ian Murray are best buddies, a right pair of arrogant sods. I wonder how Scott Arthur brings up his kids, does he teach them to tell the truth……what a hypocrite if he does, if he doesn’t and he teaches them to lie, distort and troll then they will grow up to be nasty people like their father. I can’t stand the man, he certainly is OCD against Yes/SNP and folk reading his continued blindness of real facts as he tries to discredit you Stuart and the very impressive waiting times. He really must think his followers are thick as shite if they see what you posted and the fictional crap he was tweeting. He is originally from Kirkcaldy and that is why he trolled Yes Kirkcaldy.I thought of him when SNP won with a big majority…..lol.

    70. Grouse Beater says:

      “As for the BBC employees who thought it was a good wheez to use the death of an infant as a propaganda tool to discredit the Scottish government, shame on you!”

      Did the elderly couple presume the SNP planted the infection?

    71. Another Union Dividend says:

      Lanarkist says: @10.22

      Always amazed that MSM / BBC ignore the PFI elephant in the room when it comes to NHS Health Boards.

      Recently Jim Eadie MSP highlighted that under Edinburgh Royal Infirmary’s PFI contract, Consort Healthcare will be paid £47.8 million in Unitary Charge payments this year alone, for a hospital that cost £180 million to build.

      The hospital will cost the taxpayer £1.4 billion by 2034, allowing Consort Healthcare to make profits of around £14 million per year.

      https://archive.is/nOkWl

    72. Lesley-Anne says:

      I wonder how Mr. Edinburgh Pentlands feels about the Scottish government voting against Trident earlier today. More importantly how he feels about oor wee Jackie voting in FAVOUR of Trident along with 12 Tories (out of 15) and 4 Lib Dems (out of 5)

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/holyrood-rejects-trident-renewal-full-list-msps-who-voted-against-scrapping-nuclear-deterrent-1527048

    73. Robert Peffers says:

      @dakk says: 3 November, 2015 at 11:06 pm:

      “The only noteworthy story regarding Lothian today was ;

      Montrose 1 : 2 Lothian Thistle Hutcheson Vale

      in the Scottish Cup.”

      Aye! Ma Bryson would have been proud of them. We could do with a few more Ma Brysons in Scotland today. If Ma had an eye for a player it was probably for good goal keepers. Geordie Farm and Tommy Younger among them. Both played for Hutchie Vale before making it to the seniors. Both took the Yellow Jersey from my Uncle Jock in their turn in goals for Hutchie.

    74. Jim says:

      K1 says:
      3 November, 2015 at 11:26 pm

      Jim, here is that article archived…

      https://archive.is/5MmGc
      _____________
      Thanks K1.

      George Foulkes thought/thinks that the SNP were/are deliberately making Scotland a great place to live and he thought/thinks this is a bad thing a bad thing!

      Please read the article folks, the guy is a grade A moron!

    75. James says:

      Doc Arthur needs to think before he speaks really.
      Quite funny that a mad CyberBrit operates Edinburgh Pentlands CLP twitter a/c.

    76. caz-m says:

      O/T

      “Snoopers Charter” takes a step closer to becoming reality.

      I hope the Scottish Government tell us that in an Independent Scotland our security services would never indulge in this invasion of privacy.

    77. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      During the referendum campaign, I acquired a number of ‘NHYES’ stickers, which were well received on my travels round Ninewells hospital.

      Wouldn’t it be fine, if the same body that produced the originals, made NHSYES2 stickers available?

    78. Lenny Hartley says:

      Can-m 1119

      They voted to retain trident (voted against scrapping it)

    79. ScottieDog says:

      Wonder if the BBC will have a showing of ‘Threads’ before the trident renewal. I think not…

    80. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Forgot when I posted…

      I saw an NHSYES sticker on the rear of a car, in Gellatly Street, Dundee, Monday teatime.

    81. Jamie says:

      Ha ha Scott Arthur, clamped

    82. Thepnr says:

      I actually posted here on Wings, famous Fairy Tales. Not all at the same time but over a period of something like couple of months. I cut and pasted them from other sites in order to make a point. Wings was not so busy then and I got away with it.

      The Emperors New Clothes
      The Boy Who Cried Wolf
      Jack and The Beanstalk

      These are classic childrens stories and always will be. When I posted them. I at least had a narrative to go with them, they did not stand on their own but emphasised the point I was trying to make.

      Now the the BBC and the Corporate Media are the new Fairy tale makers. Difference is their “stories” are not written for children they are written in order to scare adults into supporting their viewpoint. The viewpoint that exactly matches those that govern us.

      The Revs excellent post is just such an example of the deceit, what to do? We carry on with what we are already doing.

      We rebel! we the readers of Wings as well as the Rev continue to highlight their deceit, we expose fake propaganda, fake journalism, fake TV hosts and most of all fake politicians.

    83. Angra Mainyu says:

      Schrodinger, tell me you didn’t put a link to Colin Fox….

    84. mike cassidy says:

      The moronic mutterings of George Foulkes does shed light on one thing —

      the fact that the four years Kezia Dugdale spent between finishing her education and becoming an msp were spent — being Foulkes’ political adviser!

    85. Robert Peffers says:

      @Another Union Dividend says: 3 November, 2015 at 11:30 pm

      “Always amazed that MSM / BBC ignore the PFI elephant in the room when it comes to NHS Health Boards.”

      Even people like myself, with quite modest numeric skills, can see that any political party thinking PPP/PPI finance schemes were in any way a good idea must be so totally unfit ever to be allowed to be in political office ever again.

      These schemes were, and are, total financial madness. It would be extremely difficult to sit down and think up a more crazy and illogical way to go about financing anything.

      Unless, of course, your main object was indeed to in fact destroy your country’s economy. Going by the present toxic outpourings of the Scottish Branch Office of the Establishments Labour Party I strongly suspect that was indeed their deliberate and planned primary aim.

      If it wasn’t then they are even more unfit for office, for at least by the first conclusion, they had a definite aim in view – but what if they actually thought it was a sound and reasonable scheme?

      It hardly bears thinking about – who would trust such people with control of the military … Oh! Wait up! We did just that and gave Tony Blair the right to declare wars then we replaced him with Gordon Brown.

      Dear me! We voters have a lot to answer for in loosing such maniacs upon the World’s scene.

    86. Eckle Fechan says:

      I admire your tenacity Rev but isn’t it all a bit soul destroying having to continually expend so much energy, time and effort debating with such a bunch of half-wits on Shitter more than half of the time?

      Reading the majority of their tweets and imagining the voices, it’s like listening to upper middle class adolescents getting worked up and excited at the debating society, armed with strong but ill-informed opinions, endorsed by Mum and Dad’s view of the World and determined to keep ploughing through shite whilst ignoring the inconvenient factual accuracies presented to them over and over again.

      Hubris 25 Humility nil

    87. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      On PFI I sincerely hope we have the balls when we become independent to pay them reasonable sum (calculated on the basis if how much they have had already)and cancel the rest of the contracts.
      If they don’t like it they can stick it in other words. Unlike the UK government we are not ruled by the financial elites who own London

    88. Les Wilson says:

      Well, seems this guy needed a put down, he obviously picked on the wrong guy!Do they never learn ?, don’t mess with lies with the Rev!

    89. Dr Jim says:

      I think you’re definitely beginning to grow on them Rev Stu, they’re never done talking about you and all the help you give them

      Nice to be popular

    90. Proud Cybernat says:

      The new Glasgow super hospital is doing just fine. See here:

      Another Proud Cybernat Production:

      BBC Lies versus Spanish Ayes

      http://tinyurl.com/qbhlxnn

      And for those who missed the earlier vid:

      ‘The Vow’ A Promise Broken

      http://tinyurl.com/p5oryrc

      As ever folks, spread far ‘n’ wide.

    91. osakisushi says:

      We, the cybernats, are the new proletariat. We do not have the guillotine.

      But we do have Cut and Paste.

      What worked for Russia and France will hopefully work here.

    92. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      I do wonder if Labour in Scotland have any idea what they have just done.
      Probably not.

      That vote in the Scottish parliament – an overwhelming vote against Trident – just provided the second of the material changes that the SNP need to justify calling another referendum, EVEL providing the first.

      Can we get another vote demanding Trident and all its warheads immediate removal? Let’s see what Labour is made of.

      Devolved limitations on power are basically voluntary and are only legitimate as long as they have majority voluntary assent

      The United Nation’s Charter confirms the inalienable right of self determination to all communities. As Alex Salmond has stated there is more than one way to achieve independence. Many nations have done so by a parliamentary vote.

      A manifesto commitment to assume full sovereign powers if a parliamentary majority is achieved on that plainly stated position is perfectly legitimate route.

      Sovereignty of course in Scotland resides with the people.

      And the Scottish people are a pretty thrawn bunch. If we want to be sure of winning a referendum let Westminster try to refuse us one

      How many material changes do we need?

    93. Macart says:

      This tweeter shows a curious way of defending the NHS by attacking it.

      Labour, undermining trust in order to gain advantage for over forty years. M.O.? Attack government through institutions, deservedly or not and to hell with collateral damage. There is the damage done to the reputations of the institutions used as targets of these strategies and then there is damage done to the wider public trust.

      Again, manipulation of public perceptions for party and personal gain. Politics as a game, deliberate and calculated application of mistrust to effect change. In short, spite for advantage.

      The people who use their electorate in this fashion don’t deserve our vote and they certainly don’t deserve our pity.

      Spring cleaning, May 2016.

    94. Clootie says:

      Macart – do you never sleep? 😀

    95. aitchbee says:

      Notwithstanding your deconstruction of this story, I won’t be at all aurprised to see young Kezia using this on FMQs tomorrow

    96. bjsalba says:

      O/T but related.
      Does anyone know where Kaye’s claim that Scottish nurses are the fattest in Europe comes from?

      What is the source, and how reliable is it?

    97. Robert Louis says:

      It is interesting to note, as pointed out on the SNP twitter feed, that 74% of the democratically elected Scottish Parliament (of all parties) now oppose trident. In addition, 97% of all Scottish democratically elected MP’s now oppose trident.

      These are powerful FACTS.

      So, let’s be really clear here, the people of Scotland do not want trident in our country. It must go.

      If trident is not removed, or it is renewed, I would say we have a clear cut reason for another independence referendum.

    98. Andrew McLean says:

      Scottish labour are now an absolute disgrace, but why inter up your enemy when it’s doing a great job of destroying itself! Even Jim Murphy wasn’t such an idiot, hold on I’ve got it! This is their dastardly plan, look like absolute incompetents then get rid of Dugdale and replace her with someone good!

      Only one problem, tell me who, because from my humble position I wouldn’t trust any of them with the lunch order from the local burger van, the NHS, in the name of God call the polis!

    99. Andrew McLean says:

      Bidalba

      In my family we have a midwife and a staff nurse, also two retired midwifery sisters, I wouldn’t dare mention this story, as I am sure the local casualty department are busy enough!

      BBC, This corporation is rotten to the core and absolutely cannot represent Scotland!

    100. robertknight says:

      Napier should offer a new course…

      “How to make an Arse of yourself using Social Media 101”

    101. Macart says:

      @Clootie

      No. 😮

    102. frogesque says:

      @bjsalba

      Story comes from The Nursing Times. Study by End Uni.

    103. Angra Mainyu says:

      Dave McCewan, since defence is a reserved issue, I think you’re unlikely to see a vote on the removal of trident.

      Everything we have said in here about Scottish Labour being a branch office or “accounting unit” can more accurately be said of The Scottish Parliament. There’s a tendency to forget that these days.

      Our whole country is a branch office. Our country an accounting unit.

      Now everybody stop arguing about petty crap and do something about it.

    104. john king says:

      bjsalba
      “Does anyone know where Kaye’s claim that Scottish nurses are the fattest in Europe comes from?

      What is the source, and how reliable is it?”

      That very question show how far we’re travelled,
      3 years ago we wouldn’t have even questioned it as anything other than a fact because the BBC said it!

    105. frogesque says:

      Edinburgh Napier University ^

    106. manandboy says:

      The substantial vote to scrap Trident at the Scottish Labour Conference must have sent shock waves through the Unionist Establishment. Not because the result is a threat to UK security, which it clearly isn’t, but because it will be felt as a threat to the Union.

      Nuclear weapons come very high on the list of things that scare people, additionally so, when the biggest concentration of nuclear warheads outside the USA and Russia, is in the West of Scotland. Not a reason to vote for the Westminster Establishment.

      Vote SNP / SNP to get Scotland’s best defence.

    107. Ruby says:

      The ‘UKOK Hate Preaching Better Together Manipulative Lying Bastards’ at it again. The message I would like to send to everyone working in the NHS, education & police is don’t let these ‘UKOK Hate Preaching Better Together Manipulative Lying Bastards’ grind you down.

    108. Almannysbunnet says:

      The nurse obesity problem was reported in the nursing times. See link below. It’s interesting to note the comments from the nurses as to why.

      http://tinyurl.com/pp2wvjj

    109. The Man in the Jar says:

      Aw FFS. BBC Scotland has an article up about reintroducing road tolls. Is this going to be a new thing for the unionists to girn about?

      https://archive.is/OS6po

    110. Ruby says:

      Don’t worry about Trident when Kezia becomes 1st Minister she will have Trident removed from Scotland and on top of that she will reimburse taxpayers in Scotland the amount they pay for Trident.

      £½m a day coming to taxpayers in Scotland.

      Sorted. Vote Labour.

    111. Broch Landers says:

      Can’t decide whether Slab are deliberately dishonest and vindictive, or just amazingly thick. Either way, entertainment level is high.

    112. caz-m says:

      Lenny Hartley 11.51pm

      Well spotted.

      Cheers lol.

      Jackie Baillie of course voted AGAINST the scrapping of Trident yesterday.

      What is Jackie Baillie up to? She was the only Labour MSP to vote with the Tories yesterday.

      I think she knows in her heart that she is toast. By voting with the Tories, she can hold her head high in the social circles that she mixes in.

      Because Jackie Baillie is a Red Tory.

    113. manandboy says:

      Any Referendum under Westminster’s control will produce a result which is within their ability to control. All Westminster needs then is a reason to do so.
      Now let me think. Nope, there was no reason why the British Establishment should seek to interfere with IndyRef14!

      Are we in Scotland seriously planning to have another Unionist administered Independence Referendum?

      How often does anyone have to lose big time playing cards with someone who uses a marked deck, before they wisen up?
      Are you listening Jim and Colin?

      If sovereignty in Scotland lies with the people of Scotland, then let’s sort our future out by ourselves.

    114. Ruby says:

      The most interesting thing about the nurses being overweight story is that the BBC have chosen to highlight this story.

      They must have their researchers meticulously searching for any negative story they can find about NHS Scotland, the Police & Education.

      They don’t seem to care about the damage they do to the morale of people working in the NHS, police & education. The only thing of importance to these ‘UKOK Hate Preaching Manipulators’ is scoring political points!

    115. heedtracker says:

      Good old Dr Bonkers. He is one cringingly scary UKOK unionist zealot though. Back in ye olden days, he’d be running around ducking witches and burning people at the stake for heresy. The more things change.

      Wonder what it is that makes red tory unionjocks act like this. They won last year, even if Scotland can one day run its own affairs FFA wise, he’ll always be a Brit.

      This is just for you Dr Scott Thinks and don’t you go letting stuff like reality get you down Doc.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM

    116. Grouse Beater says:

      Peffers: Even people like myself, with quite modest numeric skills, can see that any political party thinking PPP/PPI finance schemes were in any way a good idea must be so totally unfit ever to be allowed to be in political office ever again.

      Good post. Those schemes are sanctioned highway robbery, governments keen to remove citizens rights encourage them.

    117. manandboy says:

      So how did the multilateralist Slab leader vote in the Trident debate at Holyrood? Can’t find any details.

    118. caz-m says:

      If the threat of us getting nuked is so great, why are we not getting trained on how to survive a nuclear bomb attack.

      Does anyone know where their nearest nuclear bomb shelter is?

      And I suppose Scotland would be Governed by a Unionist coalition, because creepy crawlies like cockroaches survive these atomic bombs.

    119. Davosa says:

      What kind of Dr. is this SLAB twat ?

    120. heedtracker says:

      Does anyone know where their nearest nuclear bomb shelter is?

      Yes, its No. 10 Downing Street, London. W1.

    121. frogesque says:

      Davosa says:
      4 November, 2015 at 9:07 am
      What kind of Dr. is this SLAB twat ?

      http://www.zoominfo.com/p/Scott-Arthur/45995729

      He has a PhD

      Dr Scott Arthur began his research career working for the Wastewater Technology Centre in 1992, where he was employed as a Research Assistant on a project investigating the simulation of sewer sediment/pollutant transport within the Dundee catchment.Dr Arthur’s PhD focussed on the development of a model which could be used to predict the movement of solids near the bed in a combined sewer, highlighting the pollutant potential of these materials and linking them with first foul flush.Following his work in Dundee,

      Seems he’s still rummaging about in shyte.

    122. Ruby says:

      Fao Socrates McSporran
      This post is about sport

      ‘Professional footballers have worryingly poor teeth that could be affecting their performance on the pitch, say dentists.’ British Journal of Sports Medicine

      Here’s something Call Kaye could get her teeth into! I’m sure there must be some obscure journal somewhere showing that ‘Scottish professional footballers have the worst teeth in the world, the universe & everywhere.’

      Bad teeth, bad NHS, bad SNP = Bad Scottish Football

    123. frogesque says:

      @heedtracker

      That Toob vid of La Lyn made me want to vomit!

    124. Janet says:

      Hmmm…Dr Arthur lectures at Heriot-Watt, a one-time bastion of Toryism. Prominent in his dept is Prof Paul Jowitt, noteworthy for supporting NO in his Uni’s indyref debate.

      As for Labour’s record on healthcare, look at PFI! We only wanted the private sector to provide the buildings but New Labour also privatised the ancillary services, akin to the days of compulsory competitive tendering under the Tories, except that we now have contracts for up to 25 years and difficult to wriggle out of!

      Well done, Labour! You’ve turned millionaires into billionaires and have stuffed low paid working people!

      Name Consort Healthcare’s first chairman? Lord Weir, chum of Baron Robertson of Port Ellen. Corrupt or what?

    125. Ken500 says:

      Why pick on nurses? Politicians, Braoadcasters, half the population is overweight. Yet Cameron refuses a sugar tax or a ‘loss leading’ alcohol tax.

      99 out of thousands. Just shows what a great job the SNHS is doing. 10% of A & E should not be attending. What about missed appointments?

    126. Despite the continual lies being spouted by these nonentities, and usually given prominence by their friends in the M.S.M,, it doesn’t seem to be reaching, or having any effect on their target, the electorate.
      I know it’s early days, but so far in canvassing our area, their attempts at smearing the Scottish Government are rarely, if ever, mentioned on the doorstep. And by far the greater number who have been converted, are former Labour voters who can be quite bitter about their former party standing with the tories during the referendum campaign.
      Of course you get the diehards who would never vote for the S.N.P, or independence, but they are getting fewer and fewer.
      So it seems that the combined efforts of the dead tree press and the B.B.C are having very little effect on the opinions of real people, maybe just the opposite in some cases.
      Where people are getting their information from isn’t usually mentioned, it’s not a question we ask, but it certainly doesn’t seem to be the M.S.M in a lot of cases.
      Of course, if asked, this website is usually the first mentioned if people want to find out the true facts of any story. More power to your elbow Stuart.

    127. heedtracker says:

      frogesque says:
      4 November, 2015 at 9:24 am
      @heedtracker

      That Toob vid of La Lyn made me want to vomit!

      But it will bring tears to super unionist Doc Scott’s eyes and it’s him who it’s for.

    128. Ken500 says:

      Junior Doctors in England are voting on strike action tomorrow.

      The Tories are cutting tax £20 a week and trying to charge £30 a week insurance for healthcare.

    129. caz-m says:

      Ruby

      Talking about Call Kaye.

      I remember there was a YES rally in Edinburgh, where tens of thousands marched for Scottish Independence and there wasn’t a peep about it from Kaye on the Monday morning.

      Then a few weeks later there was a VERY small rally organised by Red Heads, to highlight the victimisation of Gingers.

      And believe it or not, Kaye actually held a phone-in about Red Heads being victimised on the Monday morning after it.

      Kaye knows where her priorities lie.

    130. Donald says:

      Point 1 – The BBC is now simply a political propaganda tool.

      Point 2 – I’m sure some clever mental health types would say that being fed a constant diet of negativity isn’t great for our collective wellbeing. By constantly ignoring positive / progressive stories and spinning them into negative ones or only choosing to report their doom-mongering pish what impact are these ‘journalists’ having (on Unionists as well as our side of the fence)?

      Those old women you overhear sounding worried and saying if they go into hospital they might not come out again as it’s so bad – most of them actually believe that thanks to the BBC; believing that can not be conducive to good health and a good frame of mind.

    131. manandboy says:

      http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/28925.aspx

      As per above, Kezia Dugdale voted to scrap Trident.

    132. Andrew McLean says:

      Alex Beverage

      Yes your point about this website is correct, I now mention it at every opportunity!

      But sometimes I am told its one of those bad websites, I always say have you read it? No is usually the answer, because they have heard the SNP ban it, or its lies or full of hate, well look at the facts. We have occasional unionists on here and if they have a valid point then they are answerd, politley! can you say that about most other including the mainstream press?

      OK Rev, you are not Athena but in the land of the blind the one eyed man is King!

    133. Helena Brown says:

      Labour and the NHS, how they can say that they defend the service, ever since they pinched the idea from the Liberals they have been trying to destroy it.
      I worked for the NHS during the Labour/Lib Dem tenure, all it seemed to be was cuts, cuts and more cuts. I left in the August of 2007 so I cannot possible say if things changed with the SNP but I am at liberty to say that as someone who has had to use the A&E in recent weeks,I fell in Perth and dislocated my arm. I can assure you that the treatment I received and am still receiving is first class. I was in the Ambulance and in the hospital as soon as my Husband could get his phone to work properly, this happened about 2 o’clock in the afternoon and I was home in Fife by 6pm having had two sets of x-rays and my arm put back. They also contacted Fife NHS and arranged a follow up visit and by the Friday (this happened on the Tuesday)I had been contacted and a Physiotherapy appointment made for the following Friday at the local hospital.
      Yes I have waited in A&E in the Royal Infirmary replacement at Little France, it was in the evening, Saturday I believe. It was full of people with sports injuries and obviously in my case a self inflicted injury, do not cut potatoes with a mandolin after you have had one or two whiskies. I take it that the Doctor who obviously is not a medical one does not have a clue about triage where the most sick are dealt with first.
      I certainly think Stuart, you have kicked their arguments into touch, they are pretty hopeless in trying to woo people to their side.

    134. Andrew McLean says:

      Maybe not Athena but definitely Erasmus!

    135. Ruby says:

      I would like to know more about APD.

      I’m assuming Kezia is 100% against any reduction in APD and she could be in favour of an increase in APD.

      Does anyone have any further info on Kezia’s views on APD?

      I don’t suppose we’ll hear much from Kezia about fat nurses being that she herself is pilling on the pounds perhaps she could get Jackie Baillie to ask the question at FMQ.

      Kezia could bring up the footballers with bad teeth.

    136. Ruby says:

      Andrew McLean says:

      But sometimes I am told its one of those bad websites, I always say have you read it?

      Ruby replies

      That is because ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ have promoted that idea. The same applies to people who believe Scots are anti-English.

    137. Scott Arthur says Labour will keep defending the NHS. It’s patients Labour has trouble with defending.

      1) Up to 50 thousand ‘excess’ deaths were recorded at hospitals during the last Labour Government. (Research by Sir Brian Jarman of Imperial College).

    138. No Cheese Here says:

      Jackie Baillie is a Brit of Colonial background

      “Born in Hong Kong to a Portuguese father and Scottish mother, Baillie was schooled at the private St Anne’s School, Windermere in the English Lake District and has studied at Cumbernauld College, Strathclyde University and the University of Glasgow.” Did she meet Murphy on her travels?

      Her outlook is BritNat

      She is the Blairite labour brigade– look around how do I get elected in Scotland am I a Tory or a Labour oops let’s go labour should be ok!

      Hoorah for the Empire!

    139. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 9.51

      Ruby, I don’t think I have ever come across anyone so lacking in self awareness than you:

      You wrote: “That is because ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ have promoted that idea. The same applies to people who believe Scots are anti-English”.

      …. classic!

    140. Jim says:

      Rather than screaming for the SNP to follow Slabs bullshit, back of fag packet calculations to reverse tax credits in Scotland, why didn’t they kill the tax cuts stone dead during the first vote in the Lords?

    141. caz-m says:

      heedtrecker 8.48am

      “There’ll always be an England” is firmly stuck in my head.

      THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

    142. Ruby says:

      What is going to be interesting in the run up to the 2016 Scottish Holyrood elections is what the Tories will say about Kezia’s plans & schemes.

      Has Ruth had anything to say so far?

      Does Ruth approve of Kezia’s tax credit plans?

    143. manandboy says:

      Meanwhile, Nana at 9.28 continues to serve the Wings community superbly by doing what she does best which is providing links to terrific articles. Thank you, Nana.

    144. Molly says:

      Donald,

      I still can’t link but for anyone interested in reality v Eleanor BBC Bradford , watch Sir Harry Burns on TED X ( YouTube) about ‘ The Commonwellth’.

      This man should be on the TV every day until every adult in Scotland has heard what he has to say

    145. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible,

      are you disputing the fact that an anti English agenda is part of the disinformation put about the SNP? Oh and by the way play the ball not the man.

      “Nothing is as peevish and pedantic as men’s judgments of one another”

    146. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 November, 2015 at 9:57 am
      Ruby 9.51

      Ruby, I don’t think I have ever come across anyone so lacking in self awareness than you:

      Ata boy sensible. The toady act yesterday didn’t work at all. Stick with the condescending UKOK sneering, it’s you.

    147. frogesque says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 November, 2015 at 9:57 am
      Ruby 9.51

      Ruby, I don’t think I have ever come across anyone so lacking in self awareness than you:

      You wrote: “That is because ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ have promoted that idea. The same applies to people who believe Scots are anti-English”.

      …. classic!

      Care to elaborate? Maybe just me but that sounds like a rant.

      Conflating an anti UK Establishment stance (Of which many ‘upstanding Scots including Mundel, not Mun-del are a part) does not in any way shape or form automatically make that stance anti-English.

      I am English by birth but I support Independence for Scotland and, because they do a good job in difficult circumstance, the SNP as well. I would support the SNP even if I were a No voter, because they do a good job and there is neither the breadth nor depth of competence in any of the Scottish opposition or English parties.

      Scotland is brilliant – come to any part of Scotland and see for yourself. You will find friendliness, humour, fantastic arts, and a rich heritage. We’re also no bad at at building hospitals and bridges!

      Above all Scotland is about people, without the Scottish people we would just have sheep. And there’s a few landowners that would just love that!

    148. caz-m says:

      Can anyone explain to me what THE Labour Party stands for?

      Because I haven’t a clue.

    149. frogesque says:

      caz-m says:
      4 November, 2015 at 10:21 am
      Can anyone explain to me what THE Labour Party stands for?

      Because I haven’t a clue.

      Nup, you’ve kind of got me there!

      However, given a vote on whether to abstain or not I think they would abstain.

    150. Andrew McLean says:

      Caz-m

      Ok i will try bit religious but as the SNP stand accused of performing miracles?
      “For them it’s out-of-date and outmoded to perform miracles; teaching the people is too like hard work, interpreting the holy scriptures is for schoolmen and praying is a waste of time; to shed tears is weak and womanish, to be needy is degrading; to suffer defeat is a disgrace and hardly fitting for one who scarcely permits the greatest of kings to kiss the toes of his sacred feet; and finally, death is an unattractive prospect, and dying on a cross would be an ignominious end.”

      Ok I will drop the Erasmus quotes but really guys anyone who writes “Women can’t live with them, cant live without them”, gets my vote!

    151. dakk says:

      ‘what the Labour Party stands for ?’

      Itself.

    152. gerry parker says:

      @ Caz-m.
      Ballie ought to be challenged on her figures for Trident jobs and asked to give a breakdown of numbers and locations.

      Her figures are completely diffirent from the MOD figures provided.

      Maybe BBC will investigate for us if they are not too busy chasing NHS doomed stories?

      🙂

    153. Training Day says:

      A simple truth suffuses everything that Labour and their BBC stooges say.

      Labour/BBC need Scots and Scotland to be cowed, subservient, dependent, drowning in negativity, hopelessly mired in the ‘we cannae’ mentality.

      That way Labour and British state propaganda flourishes.

    154. Lochside says:

      BBC Operation Fear Part 2 continues….last night Detective Bird hunts down the ‘real’ story behind the Glasgow Bin Tragedy…The only tragedy being that the BBC have only a cynical ulterior motive for pursuing the narrative and not an ounce of sympathy for the victims’ families.

      Don’t get me wrong..I have little sympathy for the Scottish Legal system….corrupt sycophants that allowed the Lockerbie bomb farce to be foisted on it and manipulated to disguise the truth..and supinely accepting a ‘Supreme Court’ courtesy of Blair. But the BBC are displaying a callousness that is hard to swallow all in the cause of attacking the SG and the SNP by default.

      More of the same today with Call UKAYE re. the ‘Bin’ story really scraping the metaphorical barrel and a dig at Student loans to boot!

      Honestly, the sooner we shut down the BBC the better.

    155. Nana says:

      O/T links

      What was the point of a hacking enquiry?

      But never mind the paedophiles in Westminster will be protected.

      https://archive.is/GqoTB

      Two dictators together, Davey looking for tips on how to further suppress the populace…

      http://www.thinkleft.uk/blog/cameron-hypocrisy-as-downing-street-prepares-to-welcome-another-dictator-abdel-fatah-al-sisi/

      Murdoch takeover trashes a great magazine.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/national-geographic-society-sets-biggest-layoff-in-its-history/

    156. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean 10:14 am

      You wrote “…. Oh and by the way play the ball not the man”

      Andrew, would you like me to cut and paste the personal abuse that I receive here on Wings. If “lacking self awareness” is a phrase that constitutes playing the “man” instead of the ball – then that is village football compared to the Premier League personal abuse I get. Don’t get me wrong though, I really don’t mind.

      You wrote “Nothing is as peevish and pedantic as men’s judgments of one another”

      Would you like me to point you to the comment where Ruby described me as a “UKOK Better Together Hate Preacher”?

      For the record, and for the umpteenth time, I don’t care whether Scotland stays in the Union or leaves – whatever the majority want is fine by me. Whilst name calling doesn’t really hurt, to be called a “hate preacher” is pretty obnoxious stuff. However, I am mature enough to recognise when one is dealing with an immature child, and one can excuse the charge based on the fact that they are coming from Ruby.

    157. Nana says:

      @Proud Cybernat

      I just want to say how impressed I am by your very informative videos. I pass them around with pleasure and hope others do too.

    158. manandboy says:

      O/T Reflecting on the mess which is the UK today +4 more years of Tory plunder and heartless greed, a key element in enabling this era of plenty for the wealthy, is the support given Ed Milliband by the Unions in the battle for the leadership of the Labour Party in 2010.

      It was the Unions who sowed the seeds of abject failure by Labour in GE15, and opened the floodgates for the rampage of the newly unfettered Tory neo-Liberals.
      It is the same tory-like Unions who support trident renewal at £167,000,000,000, because it protects the jobs of their members. Sounds just like the House of Commons.

      Without any moral or economic compass, the UK is effectively rudderless under the Tories, as the UK steers a locked-in course to self-destruction, while the Labour Party lookouts are distracted by petty squabbling.

      Vote SNP / SNP and lower away the Scottish lifeboat.

    159. mealer says:

      Forgesque 9.19

      Doctor Dung?

    160. Bill McLean says:

      Sensible dave – it seems a bit disingenuous of you to say that, on one hand you don’t care if Scotland stays in the union or not, and on the other you spend hours constantly criticising what goes on up here – smacks of petulance and maybe colonialism If you don’t care simply stay away and use your undoubted intelligence to sort things out where you live for the betterment of the people there. I hate the way the so called British Government behaves nationally and internationally but since I long ago decided that they are a government whose sole purpose is to benefit England, either practically or in the field of propaganda, I no longer accept them as a government of Scotland – therefore I leave comment on English matters to the English!

    161. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible dave,

      Ok, I get you don’t care my point was, oh and by the way good morning, that the first post from you was a personal attack.
      if just being obtuse is your reason as you post on a independance website or blog thing, and you profess not to care, then good luck!

      But this will cheer you up! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dave

    162. heedtracker says:

      For the record, and for the umpteenth time, I don’t care whether Scotland stays in the Union or leaves – whatever the majority want is fine by me.

      Thank you oh wise one. Problem is sensible, we voted to stay in the union but only on your The Vow fraud, or as it was sold as at the time, vote NO for a devo-max federal UKOK.

      And yet here we are a year later, all that’s happened, EVEL and nothing else.

      All Britnats just like you sensible look like doing, is taking the historic The Vow fraud and using it to do as much economic damage to Scotland, so that SNP Scots.gov will be voted out and hard core uninionist and their BBC Scotland bootboys will once again reign over your Scotland region, on behalf of all unionists everywhere

      I know this because my Slovenian girlfriend tells us all

      https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/

      It was this unionist tory boy and a couple of others what wrote Smith’s con and it could be UKOK unionists biggest and last mistake in the history of UKOK colonial rule.

    163. Ruby says:

      Molly says:
      4 November, 2015 at 10:13 am
      Donald,

      I still can’t link but for anyone interested in reality v Eleanor BBC Bradford , watch Sir Harry Burns on TED X ( YouTube) about ‘ The Commonwellth’.

      This man should be on the TV every day until every adult in Scotland has heard what he has to say

      <Ruby replies

      Your post inspired me to search for Harry Burns on You Tube. Very interesting.

      He seems to be saying

      Lack of control = high stress = bad health/drug addiction/alcoholism/violence etc.

      Scotland within the Union = lack of control = high stress

      Being part of the Union is bad for your health.

    164. Ruby says:

      I would like to make it clear that I do not engage with ‘sensible dave’ who posts on this website.

      I do not refer to ‘sensible dave’ as a ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Manipulator’ I think everyone knows who I am referring to when I use that term.

      I use the term ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ to describe the posters who live in England who bombarded Scottish online forums 24/7 during the IndyRef. They all claimed they didn’t care if Scotland was or wasn’t Independent but did however spend 24/7 posting all the reason why we couldn’t be Independent.

      Everyone will have come across these ‘Sensible Daves’ as I call them. The best known one was John McIntyre OBE on the Herald.

      There are fewer ‘Sensible Daves’ now than there were during the Indy Ref. but it appears they have taken over ‘The Scotsman’

      I’m guessing it was ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preachers’ who fired these ‘Sensible Daves’ into action during the IndyRef by telling them that Scots wanted to break up their country and on top of that Scots hated them.

    165. Ruby says:

      Heedtracker you reminded me of another ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Dave’ he/she pretended to be from Slovenia.

    166. Andrew McLean says:

      Headtracker
      Yes I read Adam Tomkins post, but it betrays itself on the first paragraph, this is not a declaration to stand as a constituency MSP. It’s a call to be made leader of his party as if he already was an MSP, nowhere in his diatribe did he explain what benefit would he bring as a local representative.

      Regardless of his politics, he is to full of his own importance, his sense entitlement is sickening and as of his grandstanding that we have had enough off, he demands to be another mouth to feed without the decency of offering to assist only complain!

      Actualy he will go far in the tories, he meets the definition as it were!

    167. Grouse Beater says:

      A wee rant about ‘our’ new passport. http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2kp

    168. Nana says:

      @manandboy

      You are welcome, lots of wingers like yourself are great at providing links. The more information we share the more ‘clued’ up we are.

      Yesterday morn I had a load of links ready to post. Decided against as to be honest some of the content was rather depressing. I thought if I was downhearted from reading them,why spread the misery amongst wingers. Sometimes it’s best to pass.

    169. sensibledave says:

      frogesque says: 10:19 am

      We are a bit off topic here, so apologies to others that are not interested.

      You wrote “Care to elaborate?”

      I would put it down to “bunker mentality”. Many on Wings appear to operate on the basis that if you don’t vote for the SNP – then you are against Scottish Independence and are therefore a political enemy on every political subject heading.

      Obviously, over 90% of people in the UK do not live in Scotland and do not have a vote there. In addition, about half of Scots don’t vote for the SNP. Give or take a few percentage points, at least 95% of people in the UK do not vote for the SNP. That is a lot of people made up of many different races, colours, creeds and political persuasions.

      Often, people here on Wings write in a manner that groups that 95%, all together, without qualification, under a UKOK, Britnat header to be shot at, abused and insulted. It seems not to matter a jot whether someone writes what they actually believe or think on a particular matter – they will be compartmentalised, by many, as “better together, Britnat, Unionists” – if they hold a different opinion to the Nationalist “line”.

      Ruby is an example of someone that will respond with the “Better Together, UKOK, Hate Preaching …” phrase in any response, on any subject – if she deems that the person she is responding to is not an SNP voter.

      It is very sad.

      It is a free country and, within the bounds of the laws of free speech and racism, Ruby is free to write whatever she wishes. However, it id of no

    170. sensibledave says:

      sorry, last paragraph got garbled, by me. Please ignore.

    171. heedtracker says:

      Ruby says:
      4 November, 2015 at 11:36 am
      Heedtracker you reminded me of another ‘UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Dave’ he/she pretended to be from Slovenia.

      Sensible’s alright Ruby. He’s clearly just a 9-5 activist, probably tory, and he’s only doing what he’s told to do, get in there and mix it up. His work on EVEL last week was text book cyberBritnat activist stuff.

      Prof Tomkinski is a bit of a hate preacher though. Its just a feature of UKOK unionistas. Not long ago, someone came on WoS and said he didn’t take his unionist britnat stuff into the lecture theatre but that alone is highly contentious. His extreme right wing UKOK stuff goes largely unmentioned merely because the legal profession isn’t exactly brimming with young progressive liberals, either side of the border. But he is surrounded by vile separatists though.

    172. Jack Murphy says:

      ‘The Vow A Promise Broken’. A Proud Cybernat Production.
      Film released yesterday.
      Concluding words:-
      “In the end it will not be for David Cameron’s Tory Government or any UK Government to decide when enough powers have been transferred to Scotland from Westminster——that decision rests with the Scottish people and them alone”.

      “The Settled Will of the Scottish people is exactly that,the Scottish people,and not any Westminster government.”

      EXACTLY. Spread this far and wide. 🙂
      http://tinyurl.com/om3vmpq

    173. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 11. 49

      You wrote “…. He’s clearly just a 9-5 activist, probably tory, and he’s only doing what he’s told to do, get in there and mix it up. His work on EVEL last week was text book cyberBritnat activist stuff.

      …. QED! Oh the irony!

    174. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 November, 2015 at 11:58 am
      Heedy 11. 49

      You wrote “…. He’s clearly just a 9-5 activist, probably tory, and he’s only doing what he’s told to do, get in there and mix it up. His work on EVEL last week was text book cyberBritnat activist stuff.

      …. QED! Oh the irony!

      Which is sensible?

    175. Ruby says:

      heedtracker says:
      4 November, 2015 at 11:49 am

      Sensible’s alright Ruby. He’s clearly just a 9-5 activist, probably tory, and he’s only doing what he’s told to do, get in there and mix it up.

      Ruby Replies

      It would appear that I’m already mixing it up and I haven’t even engaged with him.

    176. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 11.49

      You wrote “His work on EVEL last week was text book cyberBritnat activist stuff.”

      … you mean the stuff about how just about everyone on Wings didn’t have a clue what EVEL is/was and were completely misled and confused – until I, with my concise, unique knowledge and wisdom, was able to explain everything rationally, to anyone that was capable, or willing, of/to understand(ing) English.

    177. Andrew McLean says:

      Ruby and Sensible Dave engaged, I know opposites are supposed to attract but really you are taking this too far, you’ll need RELATE before the day is through!

    178. heedtracker says:

      Ruby Replies

      It would appear that I’m already mixing it up and I haven’t even engaged with him

      It’s of no importance to activists like sensible whether you engage with them or not. They’re here to break up and poop on all kinds of things that are not UKOK and insults are just a little part of the technique.

      This dudes a classic but it’s interesting how much of their unionista schtick is centered around what the BBC creep show farts out day after day. That’s probably no coincidence.

      https://twitter.com/blairmcdougall?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

    179. Ruby says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      4 November, 2015 at 12:09 pm
      Ruby and Sensible Dave engaged, I know opposites are supposed to attract but really you are taking this too far, you’ll need RELATE before the day is through!

      Ruby replies

      We are not engaged in spite of heedtracker’s efforts to get us together!

      I don’t care if ‘sensible dave’ is only a part-time UKOK Better Together Tory Hate Preaching Sensible Dave’ I am not going there!

    180. Petra says:

      @ heedtracker says at 11:12 am ………..

      https://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/author/conlawforum/

      Adam Tomkins, Tory, seems to be extremely unhappy with the way things are being run in Scotland and yet a comparison of education, policing, NHS, housing, bedroom tax, immigration and so on in England versus Scotland highlights that England is in one utterly shambolic mess under his party’s watch.

      His Chancellor, Osborne, states that he’s been dealing severely with tax avoiders (eyes rolling) whilst he and his family members have been avoiding paying ANY (one penny) corporation tax, has been pushing through massive tax cuts for his cronies whilst cutting welfare for the poor to the bone and has failed to reduce the national debt as promised but rather with his economic decisions has pushed the level of debt right through the roof and effectively damaged the economy: unlike Swinney in Scotland who has consistently, year after year, balanced our books.

      Tomkins left England for Scotland. He now has a young family. If he thinks the situation is so bad in Scotland you’d think if for no other reason than his childrens sake, their future, he’d relocate, return, to his seemingly more desirable homeland.

    181. heedtracker says:

      … you mean the stuff about how just about everyone on Wings didn’t have a clue what EVEL is/was and were completely misled and confused – until I, with my concise, unique knowledge and wisdom, was able to explain everything rationally, to anyone that was capable, or willing, of/to understand(ing) English.

      We can all read sensible. Point is, as a tory? activist in action, how come you kept/keep ducking away from the simple query, why has all britnat media, led/coordinated by the BBC, completely buried EVEL?

      Questions questions sensible. And cue the UKOK slagg off.

    182. sensibledave says:

      Andrew McLean 12:09 pm

      You wrote “Ruby and Sensible Dave engaged, I know opposites are supposed to attract but really you are taking this too far, you’ll need RELATE before the day is through!

      Actually Andrew, between you and me, I am not sure that it is going that well. I feel like the geek in the school hallway transfixed by nearby presence the beautiful cheerleader that everyone loves – and even though we have been at school together for 10 years, she doesn’t even know my name.

      I am reminded of the quote by J M Barrie “Let no one who loves be called altogether unhappy. Even love unreturned has its rainbow.”

    183. I say to all you unionists enjoy it while you can all your lying and hatred , but our day will come then watch your backs ?

    184. sensibledave says:

      heedtracker 12:24 pm

      You wrote “Point is, as a tory? activist in action, how come you kept/keep ducking away from the simple query, why has all britnat media, led/coordinated by the BBC, completely buried EVEL?”

      … you have asked that question before Heedy – and I answered then. Its because very few, other than some on Wings, cares. EVEL was in all the major parties Manifestos at the GE. There was an election. The Tories won the GE. They implemented their manifesto commitment. End of.

      The following quote I saw is a little harsh but its not far off the mark:

      “Even though Scotland has its own Parliament and no political representative of anyone that lives in England has a vote in that Parliament, and do not have any influence whatsoever, over great tracts of legislation, and, even though all MPs, including Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs, i.e. the whole UK Parliament, will have a vote to pass, or stop, legislation that is deemed “English Only”, it is grossly unfair, undemocratic, and an outrage to democracy and an effective end to the Union that these changes have come to pass” – said no one from England, ever.

    185. heedtracker says:

      Petra.

      Prof T’s a very right wing UKOK unionist in the public sector which seems a bit counterintuitive but fundamentally he’s really just another chancer who’s spotted the huge talent free zone that is the Scottish Conservative party. And beyond that, he dreams of the House of Lords, future law Lord Tonkins of Pentonville.

      Scottish politics used to be stuffed to the gunnels with Prof T types but it is changing with every election. This much we all know. Its how our politics have always worked

      But, Scotland still merely a stepping stone on the road to UKOK greatness for idiots like my Slovenian girlfriend. To be fair, its a perfectly rational career plan and we did vote NO to keep this very British farce rolling along.

    186. Brian says:

      bloody brilliant Stuart. You never cease to amaze. Well, actually I am getting used to your incisive analysis and clearly thought out comments. I wish somehow, the SNP govt had such a media outlet in which to trash the false claims, lies and distortions of the truth that continue to appear in the MSM. They must know that the “low information” voter will continue to be influenced by the propaganda. For what it’s worth, I’ve arranged a meeting with my SNP MP this month to ask precisely those questions.

    187. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible you are asking the wrong guy! But maybe you are going about it all wrong, Try to see her side of things, you may find the pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

      “For anyone who loves intensely lives not in himself but in the object of his love, and the further he can move out of himself into his love, the happier he is.”

    188. Ruby says:

      Andrew McLean says:
      4 November, 2015 at 11:06 am
      Sensible dave,

      But this will cheer you up! http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dave

      Ruby replies

      That was printed way back in 2006. That was way before Piggate.

      Urban language changes. If someone said today

      ‘Oh man, I was the Dave of the party.’

      What would you think?

    189. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 12.51

      You wrote “If someone said today ‘Oh man, I was the Dave of the party.’ What would you think?

      I would be crushed even further than I already am.

    190. Andrew McLean says:

      Ruby, I think we can get Sensible on side, it may take years but I can see him, face blue, plaid wearing and shouting freedom!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZFd5w_IoBQ

    191. Ruby says:

      Hello sensible dave!

      What would you like to ask me?

      I provide all different types of online therapies at a very low cost.

      Please send £75 to rubyruby [at] payrubypal [dot] com for introductory session.

      For a further £150 we could have a cyber date. Would you like to take me to the Prom?

      http://tinyurl.com/l9svuap

      Born to Hand Jive?

    192. Fred says:

      “Trick or Treat!” Jackie Baillie in a nurses uniform, only she’s more into mass extermination than saving lives.

    193. heedtracker says:

      . There was an election. The Tories won the GE. They implemented their manifesto commitment. End of.

      The following quote I saw is a little harsh but its not far off the mark:

      So EVEL has buried like an old bone in the back garden of BBC propaganda last week because it was in the Tory manifesto now?

      Come on sensible that’s too weak even for you.

      Ok sensible, tory manifesto says vote tory for EVEL GE May 2015 but UKOK EVEL only makes an appearance 19th Sept 2014, from the lips of same toryboy over a year earlier had told Scotland he really loved Scotland and Scotland should vote NO for equal UKOK partnership, nae vote NO Scotland and lead the UK to a bettertogether UK future and when you do vote NO, you will have devo-max and a federal UK.

      All the usual great British liars piled in and all to keep control of too poor, small, stupid Scotland, but the greatest liars in Scottish history certainly never mentioned EVEL until the morn after sensible.

      Why’s that?

    194. David says:

      I have the answer. 🙂

      It looks like it is these SLAB and BBC people have been chipped and are all on preprogrammed message.

      I think the Dug let the cat out of the bag {soowy} the other week

      BUT in typical Dug fashion she got the political party that has been chipped and all spout the same ‘GARBAGE’ wrong!!!

      According to Kezia we are “robots that are given a chip and told what to think”. .

      BUT the confused wee lassie that she is, she was talking about herself, SLAB, the BBC and MSM.

      It was just the pre programmed “SNP BAD” message was inserted in the wrong place.

    195. HandandShrimp says:

      2007 seems a while ago now but my memory is good enough to recall the SNP reversing Labour hospital closures and tackling the horrendous MRSA infection rates in Scottish hospitals (rates Baillie later tried to palm off as current in a failed SNPbad lie).

      Labour were in charge from 99 to 07, a period of relative economic stability and still weren’t that good.

      Labour talk a good game and I am sure mean well but they are just so damned incompetent when it comes to managing.

    196. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 1:08 pm

      “For a further £150 we could have a cyber date. Would you like to take me to the Prom?”

      I-I-I-I c c can’t s s sspeak. No girl has have spoken to me before.

      (this getting really surreal now!)

    197. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 1.49

      … I repeat the quote for you:

      “Even though Scotland has its own Parliament and no political representative of anyone that lives in England has a vote in that Parliament, and do not have any influence whatsoever, over great tracts of legislation, and, even though all MPs, including Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish MPs, i.e. the whole UK Parliament, will have a vote to pass, or stop, legislation that is deemed “English Only”, it is grossly unfair, undemocratic, and an outrage to democracy and an effective end to the Union that these changes have come to pass” – said no one from England, ever.

      Heedy, move on. The changes were proposed and the changes have happened.

      I “get” that you are appalled and insulted that, for instance, Tommy Sheppard wont be able to force new fox hunting laws in England on the English – when he can’t vote on fox hunting in Scotland either. I get it Heedy. You think it is disgraceful, the end of democracy, the end of the Union (so why would you care?) a slap in the face to all Scots.

      I get it – but I totally disagree – so move on.

    198. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: Heedy, move on.

      The arrogant Englishman tells Scots take what you get and be thankful.

    199. sensibledave says:

      Grouse Beater 3.34 pm

      You wrote: “The arrogant Englishman tells Scots take what you get and be thankful.”

      …. Or, to paraphrase, the respectful Englishman recognises that the subject matter has been done to death, is off topic, and he doesn’t want to bore people further or be accused of being a troll or trying to hijack discussions, so tries to close off the thread – whilst the paranoid, extremist Scottish person, that believes that everything that happens in England is a direct attack on the Scottish Nationalism and its all a plot to oppress Scots for ever (or bring an early end to the Union – there seems to be some confusion on that point).

    200. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: Or, to paraphrase…

      The arrogant Englishman, frustrated by rejection from a nation he hopes to retain as his own, tries bluff and bluster.

    201. heedtracker says:

      I get it – but I totally disagree – so move on.

      Yes Sir, so sorry to have taken up so much of your valuable time, and so grateful that you have taken so much of your valuable time out of your important UKOK day, just to come on here and tell everyone to shut up and move on.

      And you STILL haven’t got the chops to explain why exactly EVEL was hidden from Scotland by the tory boys last last year but heyho sensible, too busy with Project Fear hysteria.

      Its Blue tory England, red tories want their Scotland region back.

      Rule Britannia sensibledave, for a few more years, methinks.

    202. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      4 November, 2015 at 3:57 pm
      Grouse Beater 3.34 pm

      You wrote: “The arrogant Englishman tells Scots take what you get and be thankful.”

      Sir, if its not too much trouble for you sensible, can you come on WoS comments and tell us what we can and cant talk about every day from now on please?

      Thank you Sir sensible.

    203. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: Yes Sir, so sorry to have taken up so much of your valuable time

      Good riposte – marks deducted for ‘Methinks’ intrusion. Place in inverted commas!

      🙂

      Here’s your new passport, Heedtracker. Show it with pride next time on your Aberdeen bus! http://wp.me/p4fd9j-2kp

    204. heedtracker says:

      Here’s your new passport, Heedtracker. Show it with pride next time on your Aberdeen bus!

      They won buddie. To the victors the spoils, all the UKOK spoils. They want Scotland, they can’t just bear the Scots.

    205. sensibledave says:

      Heedy and Grousey – The Paranoid Brothers

      … given that this thread appears to be “dead” and there is no one here but us, I am happy to continue your education if you wish – but only if you speak nicely and ask questions that do not contain false premises.

      … over to you.

    206. Grouse Beater says:

      Dippy Dave: I am happy to continue your education if you wish

      Arrogant Englishman thinks by getting between friends he can remake them in his image.

    207. sensibledave says:

      Grousey 5.17

      Au contraire Grousey. I am not trying to come between you two – I’m lumping you both together as the “remedial” wing of Scottish Nationalism. I am prepared to spend additional time with you both so that we can try and get you to catch up with the rest of the class.

    208. Grouse Beater says:

      Heedtracker: They want Scotland, they can’t just bear the Scots.

      A memorable phrase.

    209. sensibledave says:

      … anyway, you two can’t spoil my day today.

      I have been asked out (OK it is to a cyberprom) by a real girl – and she is Scottish, and (I think) she might be pro-indy. So there is nothing that you two can say that that will suck the life out of this very special occasion for me.

    210. heedtracker says:

      I have been asked out (OK it is to a cyberprom) by a real girl – and she is Scottish, and (I think) she might be pro-indy

      No one wants to end the social union sensible, least of all me. Its the politics and economics that we want to see moved back to where it belongs, our country.

      if you look at all Scots polls, Scotland wants devo-max. Ripping us off with the historic Vow fraud and using it to beat the life out of Scotland via the BBC etc, probably isn’t going to work. but it may.

      Stranger things have happened but history shows that every country that you thought you once owned said thanks very much and bye bye, eventually sensible. Sometimes with bullets whizzing past ears, sometimes with a night flit scarper back to London, sometimes with a hearty handshake but always bye bye.

    211. HandandShrimp says:

      I have been asked out (OK it is to a cyberprom) by a real girl – and she is Scottish, and (I think) she might be pro-indy. So there is nothing that you two can say that that will suck the life out of this very special occasion for me.

      Captain Sensible – you are mad as a bucket of frogs (and I have no idea what a cyberprom is) but have fun and enjoy yourself. Politics is only one facet of life.

    212. Effijy says:

      Labour Pentland shows extraordinary skills in being able to type with their fingers in their ears, their eyes shut, and making a droning sound with their mouths.

      Pathetic at a new (daily)record for the North British Accounting
      Unit.

      Please recognise the NHS Scotland figures are all the more impressive due to our poor diet and drinking to excess.
      These factors on top of the rural communities that need support, the SNP Government have worked miraculously in delivering these stats.

    213. yesindyref2 says:

      What’s going on here? It looks like there’s going to be fireworks the morrow, and I’m missing out!

    214. Sensibledave says:

      Handandshrimp and yesindyref2

      … It’s been a weird day! I’ve won Ruby over and she has asked me if I would take her to cyber prom (it’s like a prom – but you don’t actually go!). She said she would only charge me £150!

      Heedy and Grousey insist on having the same argument everyday – no matter what l say. If offered to tutor them so that they can catch up with the rest of the class.

      Grousey’s main complaint seems to be that I speak English and use words that are old fashioned – when he thinks I should “f & blind”. Heedy insists that I explain how EVEL was kept secret and sneaked through- even though it was discussed in every party’s manifesto in the GE (not very secret or sneaky really).

    215. Dafydd Williams says:

      No doubt that viewed from Wales, the SNP government of Scotland is a success story. It looks like the Labour Party is trying to use distortion to regain the ground it’s lost.

    216. K1 says:

      ‘Heedy’ is asking you why it was not mentioned in the lead up to the referendum vote last year? There was no indication that ‘in tandem’ with the ‘vowed’ new powers that EVEL was somehow part of the ‘deal’ if Scotland voted No.

      Cameron unleashed that on the morning of 19th September. That’s when he made his move, why is it that Scotland overwhelmingly voted for 56 SNP candidates to be their new representatives in Westminster having just voted No in the referendum?

      Perhaps it hasn’t occurred to you that if this EVEL plan had been introduced as part of the ‘near federal’, ‘as close to home rule’, ‘Devo max’ schtick vow which secured the No vote, perhaps, Scotland would have voted Yes?

      I think many people in Scotland woke up on the 19th September to Cameron undermining Scotland’s decision by immediately informing them that the decision they had just taken was predicated upon another agenda that the Tories had in mind.

      Since then EVEL has gone ahead…and every SNP amendment tabled on the new powers for Scotland have been torpedoed by England’s MP’s.

      It was a sleekit move from the Tories. Since the 19th last year they and the right wing press have openly promoted English nationalism, which is a totally different ball game to the one that Scotland is pursuing.

      Divide and conquer was their only tactic leading up to the GE, and Heedtracker points that out by relentlessly citing the big Alex Salmond posters thieving from the English pocket that were pasted all over parts of England? During the GE.

      Cynical manipulative sleekit beasties are the Tories. Power and Money hungry to keep their little fiefdom at the expense of every ordinary citizen in this UKOK Britain.

      When we remove the next layer at Holyrood in 2016, will you, as you did after May’s election result in the early morning of the 8th May, after the landslide say what you said then?

      ‘sensibledave says:
      8 May, 2015 at 9:24 am
      @ All on WoS

      Hearty congratulations on a stunning result for the SNP.

      I believe the result will lead to enormous changes in the way Scotland is run. No one could deny that the people of Scotland have voted for change.’

      But they have denied it, haven’t they?

      We haven’t though and that’s why we remind ourselves daily of why we need to continue to inform, educate and keep the record straight. To bear in mind how we ended up here and of why we continue to seek self-determination.

      That’s why we come to Wings, kindred spirits seeking a better way for our country to be governed.

      Why do you come here dave?

    217. Sensibledave says:

      K1 12.16

      … I hardly think EVEL represents “divide and rule” tactics – all it does is provide a tiny bit of devolution to England. We’ve done EVEL to death here on wings and most are left wondering what the fuss was about.

      The paragraph you quoted shows exactly how open and generous of spirit I am. The people of Scotland voted for the SNP in droves – and now there are 55 SNP MPs. The promised additional devolved powers have been implemented and the Scots are now responsible for even more of their own affairs.

    218. Ruby says:

      Sensibledave says:
      4 November, 2015 at 10:39 pm

      … It’s been a weird day! I’ve won Ruby over

      Ruby replies

      Since you are prepared to pay me to read your comments let’s hear it!

      What is your argument? What is it you are trying to achieve by posting on WOS?

      You should be warned that I’ve been reading comments from ‘The UKOK Better Together Hate Preaching Sensible Daves’ for the past three years and on top of that I watched Scottish Questions last night with the result that I’ve totally run out of patience.
      All I want to say now is ‘Fuck right off you arrogant hate preaching patronising load of manipulative abusive insulting creepy control freaks!’

      I think that should make it clear the mood I’m in. If you are still anxious to engage with me or you think you could convince me to change my mind then please post your comment and forward payment of £150.

    219. Ruby says:

      Sensibledave says:
      5 November, 2015 at 8:20 am

      Hang on!

      Why does your avatar & user name keep changing. How many sensible daves are there posting here?

    220. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby: What’s your argument, Dave? What is it you’re trying to achieve posting on WOS?

      It’s all about them, Ruby. It’s the troll modus operandi. Useless to engage with them in any form because the dialogue is of a universally low standard. Challenge and you get a paragraph of narcissistic, self-righteous tripe, such as:

      “The paragraph you quoted shows exactly how open and generous of spirit I am.”

    221. heedtracker says:

      … I hardly think EVEL represents “divide and rule” tactics – all it does is provide a tiny bit of devolution to England. We’ve done EVEL to death here on wings and most are left wondering what the fuss was about.

      Once again sensible. why was EVEL hidden from/kept out of the successful vote NO Project Fear campaign? Yes, you say it was all open and UKOK honest at the May General Election but even I know May 2015 comes after Sept 2014.

      Tis all a giant fraud on Scotland sensible, don’t go, we love, lead us, equal partners with us, punch above your weight in teamGB etc etc

      Its so nuts sensible and even more UKOK nuts considering there are near on 600 English MP’s that decide everything in Scotland that feel like and ofcourse , continue they will continue to do so long after the Vow fraud does actually come to anything at all.

      Its UKOK or nothing sensible, or youve been done Scotland and we’re going to use The Vow to damage you economically so badly, you all turn on the SNP and that will be the end of you lot.

      It may work sensible. You have BBC Scotland to make it so.

    222. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 8.33 & 9.42

      ‘Morning Rubes

      Firstly, there is but one sensibledave. Beware of any imitations. In terms of the avatar changing, I have no idea. As far as I am aware, I post under the same details each time, and always have.

      Whilst you may be of ill temper this morning, you should recognise that it is you that has changed – not me. I am still the same insecure but interesting and lovable chap you invited to the cyberprom yesterday (albeit in return for £150!).

      As I posted earlier in this thread, to make the assumption that everyone who doesn’t (or can’t) vote for the SNP is a Unionist – and therefore a political enemy – is a very big mistake. One risks alienating, for no reason, huge numbers of people who might be neutral or sympathetic to your cause.

      As I have repeated, ad nauseum, I really do not care whether Scotland goes Independent or not. Genuinely, whatever the majority of Scots want – they should have. Most people I know think the same.

      Read this next bit carefully before you blow your top. In my experience, most English people don’t think about Scottish (or Welsh or NI) politics from one month to the next. They have no interest and do not really give it any thought and are typically, neutral.

      It would be easy for you to translate that apathy as a negative. It’s not, it really is just apathy. As far as most of us are concerned, there was a referendum (in response to demands for one) and the result was what it was. If just 5.1% of No voters had voted the other way then Scotland would be well on the way to Independence now – and most English people would be cool with that.

      You constantly conflate and confuse politicians, MSM and “the establishment – with “The English”. As an example, Heedy is always bleating about something he has read in The Guardian. The Guardian has a circulation of less than 200,000 – and Heedy is one of them! Hardly anybody in England reads The Guardian. Nobody really cares what The Guardian reports or editorialises! The Daily Mail is written about here as the “personification” of English attitudes – it is not. The DM has a circulation of less than 1.7m – compared to a population of 53,000,000 English folk. The DM does not speak for England and it is stupid (or just politically expedient) to believe that it does.

      The recent discussions here on Wings about EVEL (lets not discuss the ins and outs again) were fascinating for two reasons. Firstly, it became clear that most visitors here had totally wrong preconceptions as to what EVEL was. Where did they get those preconceptions from? They had been fed a load of rot that they believed unquestioningly! By the time most here had understood what the actuality of what EVEL was – most people were left casting about wondering what all the fuss was about.

      Secondly, it was clear that the biggest problem that most people had with EVEL was that it wasn’t a more devolved solution. Again, for their own political aims, many here want an English Parliament. This is not because they want Devolved powers for the English (or why would there be such outrage about the almost irrelevant implementation of EVEL), it is simply because most here believe that an English Parliament would lead to Scottish Independence more quickly – which is a completely disingenuous position to take.

      You need to think about all this more deeply. As I understand it, The Rev lives in Bath. I dont know about his life or social circles, and maybe because of Wings, more of his colleagues and friends may be more aware of his politics than in “normal” human beings. However, I would be surprised if the subject of Scotland or the SNP ever comes up in normal conversation down the pub.

      And that Rubes, is the point. If it is your tactic to be obnoxious as possible, to as many possible, that don’t vote SNP, because you believe that is the quickest way to Independence – then that is fine and that is your call – it is a free country.

      However, don’t expect a free run at it and don’t expect that everyone will be won over by those tactics. I rather suspect the absolute opposite approach would probably be better – but it is not up to me.

    223. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 10.12

      “Once again sensible. why was EVEL hidden from/kept out of the successful vote NO Project Fear campaign? Yes, you say it was all open and UKOK honest at the May General Election but even I know May 2015 comes after Sept 2014.”

      Why does it matter to you Heedy? Why do you think EVEL is so evil? Why do you think English MPs shouldn’t have the right to veto English Only laws?

      I already know what you are going to say Heedy. You are going to bleat on about Scottish MPs not having the same rights – which is true. My response is – so what?!?!?

      Over recent years, we have arrived at a situation where each of the Home Nations have different degrees of devolved power granted by Westminster. Over all those years, no devolved power was granted to England – and it was about time that changed. Do you not agree?

      Given that there was no will or desire for a separate English Parliament then EVEL is a reasonable solution that satisfies some of democratic deficit – and the people of the UK had the chance to vote for it – or not. Had a non-Tory Alliance won the GE then EVEL wouldn’t have been on the Agenda and people of England would have no devolved powers – that is democracy.

      As for the timing of the announcements regarding EVEL, clearly I don’t know why Cameron chose that time to make the announcements – I can only guess. I assume it was because the subject of Independence and devolved powers was topical (i.e. there had just been a referendum) and that Cameron judged it a good time to actually do something about “The West Lothian Question” rather than just talk about it for another 15 years.

      You appear to believe that the implementation of EVEL would have been a “clincher” in the Scottish referendum and that hordes of Scots would have changed their minds about Scottish Independence – had they known that Tommy Sheppard, for instance, wouldn’t, in future, be allowed to force through English Only laws such as fox hunting, gay rights, etc, uniquely on the English.

      However, as we know, the average Scottish voter would have been told by the likes of the SNP that Scottish MPs wouldnt have a vote on a Third runway at Heathrow or additional spending on the NHS in England – and that would affect how Scotland receives cash under the Barnett formula. Which is poppycock – and you know that now (or you should do by now).

      The SNP web site pages on EVEL were a pack of “untruths” designed only to generate discontent and grievance in Scotland and the examples they gave were completely tosh – and you know it. EVEL would never stop a Scottish MP voting whether the English NHS got more money. The only thing EVEL could do is allow English MPs to veto being given more money!!!!

      So, in summary Heedy, you need to try and find a new source of grievance – nothing will be gained by you whinging further to me. You know my position. I disagree with you.

    224. heedtracker says:

      As an example, Heedy is always bleating about something he has read in The Guardian. The Guardian has a circulation of less than 200,000 – and Heedy is one of them! Hardly anybody in England reads The Guardian. Nobody really cares what The Guardian reports or editorialises!

      Its the fundamental blue tory hypocrisy of the Graun that’s really stuck out in their full on monstering of Scottish democracy sensible. And Graun is big part of teamGB UKOK propaganda. All Scottish democracy has really done, is exposed phoney progressive liberals like The Graun circus to be the exact opposite of what they sell themselves. And why not. Its just business after all.

      Fact is sensible, Scotland running Scotland will ofcourse diminish England to a relatively large degree but it is now and continues to be a massive boost for Scotland and Scots, even with devo at relatively low levels we have now. Eg we have an endless parade of unionistas raging away at student debt in Scotland, their solution, charge them all same English fees for what most Scots consider a human right not a money making privilege.

      Anyhoo,

      Red and blue tory unionists in Scotland are stuck on the horns of a UKOK dilemma sensible. Everything that happens in this farce union must always be England first, Scotland second. What that means goes way back in time but Scotland is now more than alive to this grotesque inequality in all kinds of ways, we can vote change and that is why its nearly all over.

      Once you “gave” Scotland its pretendy parliament sensible, within 20 years you have your first independence referendum and even that had to be terrorised into NO by usual BBC creeps and red and blue red tory lied to with their historic The Vow fraud but despite all the UKOK fear and lies and deception, has it worked?

      England will be just fine sensibledave, as long as you keep voting Tory. And good luck with your special blend of sneaky creepy UKOK lying too sensible, most entertaining, methinks

    225. K1 says:

      Still haven’t answered the question.

      Why do you come here Dave?

    226. sensibledave says:

      K1 says: 12:46 pm

      “Still haven’t answered the question. Why do you come here Dave?”

      Really? I hope that is not a criticism of my effort to communicate – I have just written two long responses on a dead thread that very few people, other than Heedy and Ruby are likely to ever read.

      There are two ways of answering your question – a short way or a long way. I will go for the short route.

      … the same as you K1, I am interested in politics.

    227. K1 says:

      I’ve outlined specifically why I am on Wings Dave.

      You could go to any number of blogs or articles related to politics.

      Why do you come to the number one site related to Scotland’s Independence specifically?

      Indulge me with the long way?

    228. mogabee says:

      My, looks like “grievance” and “whining” are the new words to spit at the Scottish and MP’s.

      Do Yoons have a special committee to decide which ones to annoy us with?

      Bless..

    229. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 12.17

      You wrote: “Its the fundamental blue tory hypocrisy of the Graun that’s really stuck out in their full on monstering of Scottish democracy sensible.”

      Heedy, do you understand anything? Do you read anything I write, or are you just a preprogrammed robot that regurgitates the same tripe in response to any point.

      It is hard to know where to start. I have quoted you above. For you to even suggest that The Guardian is representative of Blue Tory Hypocrisy demonstrates, beyond any shadow of doubt, that you haven’t got a clue about politics in England.

      Tories don’t read The Guardian (very few people do)!

      The Guardian is laughed off as liberal angst for sandal wearing vegans for God’s sake! The very idea that it represents English Values (given the Lib Dems performance in the GE) shows just how uneducated you are – and, probably, that is the sum total of your problem.

      I did a quick sum for you:

      0.37% of the population of England read The Guardian Heedy (about 1 in 300).

      A full Ibrox stadium constitutes 1.37% of the total Scottish population (about 1.37 in 100).

      Should I take it that the average Ibrox attendee is 4 times as representative of Scottish opinion than The Guardian is of English opinion?

      Do those facts tell us anything about England or Scotland? No they don’t! And yet you spend your days basing your whole political ideology on one of them! Get a life Heedy.

    230. heedtracker says:

      Get a life Heedy.

      OK! and keep up the display of UKOK waffle too sensible, which we get daily rammed down our throats by BBC anyway.

      Don’t worry sensible.

      Everyone knows you’re not interested in talking to YES votes like me. You lot are only after the 10%-20% undecided Scots who can or cannot be terrified, lied to, threatened and all round UKOK bullshitted for their endless NO vote loyalty to teamGB.

      Good luck with all that UKOK jazz sensible, you’ll really need it after next May.

    231. heedtracker says:

      Incidentally sensible, you say UKOK stuff like

      I did a quick sum for you:

      0.37% of the population of England read The Guardian Heedy (about 1 in 300).

      True but why then, were hard core red tory propagandists like Severin Carrell never off the BBC vote NO Scotland propaganda talking head circuit?

      Too many outstanding TV performances UKOK wise with oor Severin in particular to mention but all of it taking a long hard fake progressive liberal weewee, all over Scottish democracy.

      Not bad for a hack employed by a The Guardian what nobody reads. Its all just one more teamGB mystery sensible.

    232. sensibledave says:

      K1 1.14

      … I will – if you do some work to demonstrate that you are genuine interested.

      Tell me why anyone that is interested in politics would “hang out” on site where everybody agrees on everything. What’s the point? Where is the intellectual stimulation? Where is the challenge to your views? How do you get to understand another point of view? Why would you get any satisfaction from a debate where one person says something and then 250 other people say “me too”?

      You answer those questions and then I will respond to your question.

    233. heedtracker says:

      Why would you get any satisfaction from a debate where one person says something and then 250 other people say “me too”?

      You answer those questions and then I will respond to your question.

      Therapy sensible? Faced with the giant UKOK lie machine everyday, who wouldn’t.

      And you have still to respond to the straightforward UKOK question, why was EVEL only announced the morning after you won the referendum last year, outside No.10, by a toryboy with thing for sex with dead animals?

      And yes, you already said, EVEL was in every UKOK party manifesto for May 2015, BUT that was long time after the triumph of Project Fear.

      Don’t worry sensible, you’ve already displayed your lack of character and good grace to even begin to approach reality in your Scotland region.

      And why would you.

    234. K1 says:

      That’s not exactly what it is like on Wings dave, and you know that. (maybe not)

      It’s more a convergence of ‘how’ people perceive the reality of the lives that they are leading. And sharing what has prompted them to arrive to a differing interpretation from how the vast outpourings from most media sources suggest is the ‘only’ reality.

      It’s actually not all about ‘intellectual stimulation’. Its essence is one of shared experiences, and an acute incisive questioning of the current narratives that are being spun which allow an unfair and unjust system to continue to ride roughshod over the human spirit and heart.

      I don’t perceive this site as one where everyone agrees with everyone else dave. The one thing we agree on is that we all want Independence for Scotland, to run its own affairs, and to take responsibility for our own mistakes and successes.

      You’ve been around here long enough to have witnessed this. It’s far more nuanced than you suggest.

      But, if it is as you perceive it, it really does beg the question why you come onto the site?

      You describe those of us who comment on here in such pejorative terms, it’s very patronising. But at the same time you visit and comment on this site that lacks such ‘intellectual stimulation’.

      If this ‘place’ provides such a dearth of what you value, why do you even bother?

    235. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 3.03

      … sensibledave 12.01 Paragraph 6

      … have you considered “reading” as a way of seeing whether someone has answered your question.

      And BTW, I have never won an election – read, actually read, my comment to Ruby at 11.29 – its all there.

    236. K1 says:

      He did it on the 19th to take the focus off Scotland dave. To put us back in our place.

      To the world he said, yes, yes, very good. But what’s tremendously important is England, it’s so unfair for England with the biggest population of the 4 countries in this marvellous UK, to be so disadvantaged, outnumbered, really just beaten down by the might of these devolved parliaments that we must have EVEL Now.

      What it did was show up the two faced sleekit political agenda of the Tories to diminish the Labour party’s chances in ever governing again in the UK. Which you may think, is a legitimate political motivation.

      I don’t believe it was. I take the view that Cameron lost the Union that morning…proof if any were needed to back up that assertion, is the response of Scotland’s electorate in May.

      We didn’t just push out Labour because of the ‘in bed wi the tories’. We pushed them out because we know they are just another colour on the spectrum of an ever increasing right wing ideological movement in England, and we in Scotland don’t want to go down that ideological route.

      We sent the SNP to protect our interests, in the full knowledge that Labour do not protect our interests, the proof of that was writ large throughout the referendum campaign.

      We in Scotland who support Independence are not ‘nationalists’ in the pejorative use of that word that is utilised relentlessly to demonise our political position.

      We’re attempting to retain our humanity, our feeling for our fellow human beings and to find the means to mitigate against the increasing assault on those of us who have the temerity to be born into circumstances that do not ‘fit’ the narrative that we have been brainwashed into believing: that greed is ‘normal’.

      You seriously don’t see that do you?

      15 years…let’s do it Now. Nah dave, either your sublimely naive or extremely gullible. Why don’t you tear strips off the Tories for their cynical manipulation of your own country’s population?

      Or do you have just enough in the bank, and a wee holiday and a beer down the local, enough to get you by?.

      Are you alright Jack? Is that not the Tory way. Every man for himself, envy thy neighbour, begrudge those scrounging beggars beneath ye.

    237. sensibledave says:

      K1 3.11

      Firstly, thank you for taking the effort. I suspect that only you and I (and my Nemesis, Heedy!) are the only ones left here. We can therefore agree that I have no motivation to write – other than to talk directly to you!

      So, some background, as had been revealed over time. I live in the south east of England to the west of London. The constituency I live in is a typical home counties shire. the town I live in has a population of 10,000 and is a typical market town. The Conservatives were returned with over 58% of the vote. Labour, the Lib Dems and Ukip got an average of around 11.5% each with the Greens picking up the rest. It is therefore, by any analysis, Tory country, and, I suspect Hell will freeze over before a different party is returned.

      A look at a colour map of how England voted shows the scale of more general “Toryness” in England.

      You will know that it is considered impolite to discuss religion and politics in polite company. If I do ever discuss politics with my friends there is little disagreement about basic politics – so not much satisfaction or intellectual stimulation there. I have friends that are “lefties” and even some with UKIP tendencies but discussions are rare – because one ends up listening to irrational rants rather than getting into details.

      Most of the people I know are “good people”. They care about others as well at their loved ones. They have the same worries and fears as SNP voters in Glasgow I suspect. And yet, in terms of personal politics, the average voter near me thinks entirely differently to the average voter near you?

      Why is that? That is the interesting bit.

      Stumbling across Wings introduced me to a lot of people that are passionate about their politics. In addition, they are predominantly left wing, and hold opposite views to me on a great raft of subjects. Furthermore there is the issue of Scottish Independence.

      The latter is particularly interesting because of the general characterisation of “The English” often seen here, as well as the characterisation of a “Tory” (remember, that is 58% of voters, i.e. good people, that live around this area). You will note that the word “Tory” is used as a pejorative almost everywhere on this site. There is no such thing, apparently, as a good tory. 58% of people that live around me are horrible uncaring, selfish b******s apparently.

      So there you have it. Everything you need to provoke interesting and lively debate. Its tough sometimes (the recent EVEL) debate was particularly so. I knew, like I know that the sun is going to rise tomorrow, that most on Wings had been completely misled, for political purposes, as to the impact, or otherwise, of EVEL. I knew that the SNP was, in large part, responsible for misleading them – and the challenge of changing perceptions was interesting.

      … does that help?

    238. heedtracker says:

      … does that help?

      Good people don’t vote for rich men to tax the poorest to pay for the richest sensible. Its pure tory greed. That’s all.

      Toryboys caused this austerity misery but who’s paid for it sensible? The worst off.

      And now we have a whole host of red and blue tory potbellied goons in Scotland at least, all raging away SNP Scots.gov for NOT doiing enough to prevent the nightmare of the toryboy policies, that they vote for.

      Its a toryboy world, we just want to get away from it. Like I said, you worry too much sensible. Up here we have all newsrooms led and coordinated by BBC Scotland all endlessly farting out toryboy UKOK rule Britannia stuff and it could well hold down Scotland for a wee bit longer.

      Anyway, Iceland jailed their bankster thieves, teamGB rewarded theirs with billions and honours. Today single mum’s earning peanuts are next in line for toryboy austerity because Toryboys are so nice n shit.

    239. K1 says:

      It’s the Tory Party we have issue with not the English dave. Though it is difficult to really grasp why people vote for them in England?

      I’m in accord with Heedtracker in this regard, you are voting for a party whose policies by their very nature have caused the greatest harm to those who are less fortunate in society, here and in England.

      We as a country do not vote Tory and have not for many years dave. The ideological position that they espouse creates vast divisions within our society between those who have and those who have not. Their solution is to reward the haves at the expense of those with less, ergo maintaining the status quo, of those who have and those who have not.

      Furthermore to achieve that they produce a narrative that demonises sections of society, encouraging racism, snobbery, and indifference to the suffering of those who do not ‘fit’ into their worldview. (Disseminated by the right wing corpmedia)

      Whilst at the same time allowing some of the most corrupt financial practices to flourish, and as Heed points outs, when found out, those responsible are let off and rewarded further.

      We are not ‘all in it together’ dave. The systematic stripping back of our social security system, which was designed to ensure dignity was retained in the face of life’s hardships, is lying in tatters as an unprecedented rise in food banks takes the place of what was once regarded as the ‘safety net’.

      They, the Tories and the Red Tories have made a safety net for themselves and protected the interests of their financial backers and institutions who directly through the pursuit of unbridled greed, caused this mess

      But the ‘blame’ has been laid at the feet of ordinary people, and we have to suffer the consequences of their corrupt worldview whilst they lecture us on ‘tightening the belt’.

      It’s an ‘upside down’ worldview, in my opinion. It’s a manufactured narrative that only benefits those who have lost sight of their humanity and know the cost of everything and have quite literally lost touch with any kind of decent value system which is necessary to maintain a stable society.

      In essence from what you have written, you come on here to chat to people about politics, because no one goes into this sort of depth in your immediate circle.

      As there is ‘not much satisfaction or intellectual stimulation there’.

      Which is exactly how you describe your experience of coming onto WoS?

      So, intellectual stimulation ‘is’ the reason why you comment on Wings?

    240. sensibledave says:

      K1 9.11 & Heedtracker

      Well that was a complete waste of time!

      K1 wrote: It’s the Tory Party we have issue with not the English dave. Though it is difficult to really grasp why people vote for them in England?

      Heedy wrote: Good people don’t vote for rich men to tax the poorest to pay for the richest sensible. Its pure tory greed. That’s all.

      … you idiots! is that really the total depth of your analysis? You arrive, simply, at the conclusion that 58% of the people around me must be “bad people” because they vote Tory ….. but to avoid making that statement a racist one (because the majority of that 58% are English), you add the inanity that you have nothing against the English.

      If that is the sum total of your ability to think, then I really do feel sorry for you.

    241. K1 says:

      There was a bit more to my analysis than that dave.

      Are you trying to ‘get’ somewhere?

      Oh I don’t think you feel sorry for us dave, you seem angry?

      Simply not true dave that people on here ‘hate the English’. Just so happens that as you so rightly point out the people who live in England vote Tory and by a significant majority in your neck of the woods.

      Can you not ‘conflate’ please. There is a distinction, it’s not because they are English, they happen to be born and raised in England and also vote Tory.

      For all I know, your small polity are a mixture of asian, french, scottish, chinese, russian, irish et al and they all vote Tory. It’s not about the English.

      Yet you insist in bringing it back to that, and hit out angrily as if you want it it to be that.

      Is that easier than seeing outlined what the Tory party are actually about, is it easier to lash out and comfort yourself with a lie, rather than open your mind to what others are saying?

      Look at what the Tory party actually do. It has nothing to do with your pals dave.

      That’s the essence though, you and your pals vote for this awful party. I didn’t say it made you ‘bad people’ I said it’s difficult to understand why they vote Tory given who and what the Tories are.

      Stop calling people idiots when you don’t like what they are saying to you. It’s childish. It’s certainly not ‘intellectually stimulating.’

      So? Do you come here for ‘intellectual stimulation’?

    242. Grouse Beater says:

      K1: “Simply not true dave that people on here ‘hate the English’.”

      He’s here under instruction to frustrate, to divert attention from truth. His vanity and arrogance are without limit. He will sort out the ‘separatists’.

      He drops in the odd ‘I agree’ to make him appear conciliatory (note ‘Tory’ in that word) invariably talking about himself as smarter than anybody else.

      Classic troll on the loose.

      His next appearance on another topic will begin the same tired cycle of anti-Scotland verbiage and cliché as before only the sentences will be rearranged.

      The surprise is only that so many take him at face value because they wish to be seen as playing fair – which is exactly what he exploits.

    243. sensibledave says:

      KI and Heedy

      “Simply not true dave that people on here ‘hate the English'”

      Well you need to work on your logic. If the vast majority of people around me are English and vote Tory – then all the adjectives you use to describe Tory voters are being used to describe them – en masse.

      If the depth of your analysis is that people that vote Tory are bad people – then that demonstrates just how little knowledge and understanding you have. It really is quite pathetic.

    244. heedtracker says:

      If that is the sum total of your ability to think, then I really do feel sorry for you.

      A tory feeling pity? For shame sensible. England’s a wealthy country and so is Scotland but England votes tory over and over. And the so called left in England and Scotland, the red tories as they’ll be for ever known, will only get near power again by being just as tory as blue toryboy world, in England.

      Good luck with all that sensible. In an England of extremes run by toryboys, You’ll need it

      And yes sensible, we know, stating out loud how and why England keeps voting Toryboy and that it is ghastly makes you a racist, a Scottish racist.

    245. heedtracker says:

      If the depth of your analysis is that people that vote Tory are bad people – then that demonstrates just how little knowledge and understanding you have. It really is quite pathetic.

      Well explain the “good” behind toryboy policies like tax credit slash and burn sensible?

      After all the austerity for the poor, socialism for the rich UKOK bullshit, people living on slave wages are losing even more in toryboy world and all because of very wealthy bankers, totally unregulated by red toryboys like Crash Gordon, Lord Flipper and ofcourse Gideon, got even richer by all kinds of toryboy shite.

      Survival of richest sensible. Its the toryboy way, but its all fine as long my house price keeps booming, they don’t do too much damage to the NHS, keep pumping loads of money into our motorways and rail networks in the south east and keep the sweaties in line. Rule toryboy Britannia

    246. heedtracker says:

      http://www.channel4.com/news/george-osborne-family-business-6m-deal-with-offshore-firm

      The “good” tory. Very racist of C4 to report on tax dodgers like the above but even so, just enough “good” tory voters thought it’s all fine and dandy, I’ll vote blue tory boy again, because im alright jack, my house price is booming, yada yada sensibledave.

    247. K1 says:

      You are quite insistent that your ‘logic’ is irrefutable dave.

      An inability or unwillingness to grasp that it is the political party that you and millions of others, whether you define yourself by country of origin as English or not, that is under discussion here.

      As long as you play the ‘racist’ card or ‘victim’ card. You don’t have to address any of the salient facts that have been laid bare about the party you vote for.

      Easier and more comforting to define others who do not share your worldview as ‘idiots’ ‘racist’ ‘pathetic’ and all the other pejorative terms you resort to when confronted with a reality that you cannot quite stomach on some deeper level.

      Perhaps just pause for a moment dave.

      Consider that this is challenging your worldview.

      It’s not about whether you and your pals are’bad people’, it’s about how ‘good people’ end up supporting a party that does not have ‘all people’s’ best interests at the core of their ideological outlook.

      Whose policies are designed to enable their class to prosper at the expense of those not of their class. Where money and retention of power are the only measures of success, that count. Who speak ‘democracy’ but act ‘elitist’.

      Whose crushing of the institutions that were put in place to protect those not from the sheltered wealthy enclaves reveals a dearth of humanity within their collective psyche.

      Who preach from on high when their banker pals screw up, how we are all in it together, and now everyone else has tae ‘get on their bike’ to enable the economy to pick up. Meanwhile ensuring billions are poured into quantitative easing to ensure their pals liquidity remains fluid.

      So ensues an ever widening gap between the rich and poor that has never been so chasmic in living memory.

      Why do you support this party dave?

      That is the question.

      How’s the ‘intelletual stimulation’ working out for you?

    248. sensibledave says:

      K1 12.30

      Why do you support this party dave?

      … why do you think? It is because I, and millions of others, totally disagree with your ridiculous characterisation of Tory values and policy – you numptie!

      The fact that your understanding of politics and economics, is so shallow that they only rationalisation that you can come up with to justify someone voting in a different way to you is that they must be all rich, selfish b******s – is so stunningly arrogant and ignorant that it isn’t really worth further comment.

    249. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      6 November, 2015 at 5:33 pm
      K1 12.30

      I say. “Good” toryboys are very bad mannered sensible. All part of the toryboy package, methinks.

    250. K1 says:

      That’s may well be a characterisation of the Tory party I could get behind.

      It’s certainly not how I have characterised those who vote for them.

      Else why would I have asked you why you vote for them dave?

      More insults I see. Would your churlish outburst be an example of the ‘irrational rants’ that you describe regarding your experience of political discourse with those who’s political outlook you disagree with?

      Still not prepared to answer why you vote Tory dave?

      Do you think the Tories are ‘rich, selfish bastards’ dave?

      If you have a different view as to what the Tory party’s values and policies represent, why don’t you elaborate on that?

      It’s all intellectual stimulation after all dave, isn’t it?

      Or is emotional stimulation overcoming ‘rational’ discourse dave?

    251. K1 says:

      Here dave, here’s some intellectual stimulation for you.

      Update your references and catch up wi the latest effects of Tory values and policies in ma neck of the woods:

      https://archive.is/VeLem

      Tell me why do you vote Tory?



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