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Wings Over Scotland


Powers without pennies

Posted on June 23, 2016 by

One of the more intriguing aspects of the EU debate has been the claim made by former Labour minister Tom Harris that a vote to leave the EU would transfer a raft of new powers, including over fishing and farming, to the Scottish government.

(Part of a fairly major volte-face by Harris on who should control what in Scotland, but let’s not get into that right now.)

PICTURE 1 (1)

On the face of it, this is a perfectly feasible possibility, since devolution was set up on a “reserved list” basis – any issues not specifically reserved to Westminster are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. In theory this would indeed mean that powers over farming and fishing would revert to Holyrood automatically upon exit from the EU.

But it’s not quite as simple as that.

Westminster, for one thing, ultimately calls all the shots over devolving any powers to Scotland. But even assuming good faith on the part of the UK government, there’s something else for Scots to ponder.

While it remains to be seen if the Scottish Government would or wouldn’t gain complete control over fishing and agriculture, there is one thing that’s not in doubt, and that’s the funding for those activities.

The UK contributed £13 billion to the EU budget in 2015, implying a Scottish share of £1.1 billion based on Scotland’s 8.4% of UK population. This figure is inclusive of the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s.

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But on top of this the UK still receives back over £4.5 billion in funding annually, leaving roughly £8.5 billion as the net cost of membership. This works out as £163 million a week; considerably less than the often quoted (and wrong) £350 million a week cited by ‘Leave’.

The alternative models to trade in the EU are via the European Economic Area (EEA) in Norway’s case, and through bilateral agreements for Switzerland.

The European Economic Area (EEA) brings together the EU Member States and three of the EFTA States (Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway). It was established by the EEA Agreement, an international agreement which enables these three EFTA States to participate fully in the Single Market.

It covers the four freedoms – ie the free movement of goods, capital, services and persons, plus competition and state aid rules – in order to have EU legislation for the single market integrated into the EEA so that it applies throughout the whole area, ensuring uniform application of laws.

The EEA also covers policies such as consumer protection, company law, the environment, social policy, and statistics. In addition, it provides cooperation in several flanking policies such as research and technological development, education, training and youth development, employment, tourism, culture, civil protection, enterprise, entrepreneurship and on small and medium-sized enterprises.

It guarantees equal rights and obligations within the single market for citizens and economic operators in the EEA. This is important, as it ensures that trade and movement can be undertaken without hindrance throughout the community. If this was not in place then the EFTA countries could be faced with Trade Tariffs on their goods pushing up prices, and limitations on their people’s access to the EU thereby severely impacting upon the service industry.

However, access to the EU via the EEA means that the EFTA nations do not have any vote on drafting the laws to which they must adhere. Moving to the EEA option will leave the UK still having to adhere to most of the EU rules on freedom of movement and social protections.

Alternatively, and for the same access-to-market reason, the Swiss negotiated a series of bilateral agreements that took 10 years to put in place. However this also needed the Swiss to sign up to the majority of EU laws, including freedom of movement, and the negotiation process was described by the EU as complex and unwieldy to manageIt’s unlikely the EU will want to go down this route again, and Brexiters won’t want to wait 10 years anyway.

PICTURE 3

The main point in access to the EU through either of these means is that the core rules of the EU have been prerequisites to gaining agreement. It means that any country wishing to undertake this route MUST also agree to free movement of people, the main thing the Leave campaign is campaigning against.

Norway’s membership costs of EFTA/EEA versus the UK’s costs of EU membership were assessed in a 2013 House of Commons Library research paper.

PICTURE 4

From the House of Commons Library’s calculations above we can see that the estimated cost of entry to the EEA through EFTA would equate to about £6.85 billion, based on a £106 per capita cost for the UK’s 65 million people. This therefore reduces the financial benefit of leaving the EU down to £1.65 billion (with a Scottish share of roughly £138.6 million annually).

But that saving has to be weighed against the funding given to farmers and fisherman through the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) and European Maritime and Fisheries Fund. Norway doesn’t get EU grants or CAP payments back like the UK does.

CAP payments to UK farmers alone amount to £2.88 billion a year, and can account for up to 60% of UK farmers’ income. This means that any savings provided by changing to EEA membership via EFTA would be wiped out by the loss in funding to UK farmers alone.

To counter this loss of earnings would require the UK government to implement its own subsidy program to maintain the industry. And here’s the rub: there’s no guarantee that this would happen.

In other words, while farming and fisheries may indeed be devolved to Holyrood by default with a Brexit (we can’t be sure), the real risk is that Holyrood gets control over the provision of Farming, Fishing and Structural Development, but the funding that went with these activities at EU level stays at Westminster.

The Scottish Government could be left “holding the baby” but with no money to pay for the baby’s shoes. And the UK government’s record of fair treatment for Scotland in the sector isn’t good.

This is the Catch 22 of devolution instead of independence. As an independent nation, Scotland would have control over all funds and could reassign as it pleased if it were to leave the EU. But as a devolved nation, Scotland must work within a fixed budget, and would find itself having responsibility for a whole raft of activities for which it has no funding agreed with Westminster.

The question for Scots farmers and fishermen, then, is whether they trust Brussels or London more to keep the payments coming.

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  1. 23 06 16 10:56

    Powers without pennies | speymouth

199 to “Powers without pennies”

  1. It was Westminster wot sold off our fishing rights in the first place.

  2. Grouse Beater says:

    Boris photographed kissing a fish was kissing it goodbye? (Jist askin’.)

  3. Doug Daniel says:

    Very good point, which no one else seems to have noticed. Which is a surprise considering how much scrutiny the Leave case has been subjected to.

    No wait, the other thing…

  4. Macart says:

    Tariffs, subsidies and implications for devolved legislatures… spookily not given much of a spotlight throughout this campaign.

    There’s a possibility it may be brought into very sharp focus in the not too distant future.

  5. MajorBloodnok says:

    As soon as Scotland gained control of the fisheries it would turn out that we had the wrong kind of fish that nobody wanted anyway.

  6. Bob Mack says:

    Surely they would keep their promise just like they did with the Smith Com—— err, point taken.

  7. schrodingers cat says:

    labour and the tories have one goal.. destroy the scottish economy and blame the snp

    polls look like a last minute swing to remain… bugger

  8. The Man in the Jar says:

    It is my recollection that Europe didn’t ask for the UK’s fishing rites in the first place. So desperate to get into Europe Heath gave them away as a sweetener.

  9. Les Wilson says:

    Good to have this laid out Scott. I think we are aware now that
    we cannot, and should not, trust any dealings with Westminster, they have form…

  10. The Man in the Jar says:

    @Major Bloodnok
    at 10:28am.

    “As soon as Scotland gained control of the fisheries it would turn out that we had the wrong kind of fish that nobody wanted anyway.”

    On fire this morning Major!

  11. John Walsh says:

    Why has nobody asked Leave who will pay the 30,000 Brits on benefits in the EU bill if we leave the EU.
    Or will the reciprocal agreement for Medical Costs still be met.
    The EU citizens who come here for work are mostly young . What If we are to repatriate our “expats” mostly retired and ailing population.
    Nobody has asked, not project fear but somebody should have asked .

  12. Macart says:

    Anyone else pick up where the leave campaign explained how tariffs were going to be managed, or subsidies replaced?

    Anyone?

  13. Ken500 says:

    The EU costs Scotland nothing. £1Billion. It comes back in CAP, Grants and shared Defence costs. Nearest biggest market.

    The UK Union cost Scotland £10Billion+ which could be better spent. Trident/illegal wars, ‘loss leading’ drink costs, tax evasion, loan repayments on debts Scotland doesn’t borrow or spend, high Oil sector tax when prices had fallen, (with no alternative). Osbourne tried to destroy the Oil sector.

    Scotland as part of the UK receives lowest CAP payment in the EU. The EU gave Scotland extra payment. The Westminster Minister gave it to wealthy farmers in the south. Said ‘BT’.

  14. Phil Robertson says:

    “The question for Scots farmers and fishermen, then, is whether they trust Brussels or London more to keep the payments coming.”

    Or the Scottish Government for that matter,
    http://stv.tv/news/politics/1357424-farm-payment-delays-costs-taxpayer-over-100-000-so-far/

  15. heedtracker says:

    Alex Salmond’s “debate” with the usual over confident toryboy buffoon last night went into this, and then Lord Toby Young totally ignored Salmond explaining the Brexiteers big shyste on UK being like the Swiss, despite Swiss having to agree to free movement of EU citizens, if they want to trade with the EU. It certainly puts their “take back control of immigration” bullshit into perspective.

  16. Shagpile says:

    Thing is, it is doubtful if the UK (or even rUK) would be accepted by EFTA as members as they would not exactly relish a state with a population greater than it’s own combined.

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/357509/Scotland-could-join-EU-Mark-II

    An independent Scotland may have that option.

    Particularly with hindsight, the UK has behaved like a spoilt brat in the EU, and that would not look good on the application CV to the EFTA member states.

  17. bobajock says:

    Or UDI … then no paying for nukes/ HS2/ Crossrail2/ meh.

  18. starlaw says:

    Scotland will not be handed the North Sea Fisheries, this will be declared Extra Territorial Area by Westminster. Licenses would be issued and sold to the highest bidder. Japan would be very interested in this arrangement

  19. Bugger (le Panda) says:

    I am sorry, but I always believed that EU CAP payments do not go directly to Scotland but to London which decides which proportion of the allocation to send to Scotland.

    The rest they waste of fags, booze and tax breaks somewhere else.

  20. msean says:

    I wouldn’t be wanting to count on Westminster if Scotland was entitled to anything for farming , fishing etc,there would be legislation passed in London to redefine or change wording to suit. Nothing could stop them,we are outvoted. It would be like watching the Scotland Act all over again.

  21. tartanfever says:

    Does anyone know what would happen to our territorial waters and fishing rights for other EU countries in these waters ?

    Presumably they would become no-go areas for EU vessels ?

  22. schrodingers cat says:

    from twitter

    the Jockalypse: whereby Scotland keeps England in the EU against its will.

    Jockageddon: The laughter paralysing Scotland due to the above!

  23. punklin says:

    You had me till… “But even assuming good faith on the part of the UK government”…

  24. heedtracker says:

    After BBC’s day after day blanket nation wide “coverage” of the Jo Cox tragedy, its all now forgotten, for Glasto, sports and Trump. BBC is one seriously creepy UKOK outfit.

  25. Macnakamura says:

    Question arising from my ignorance.

    What are the benefits to countries, such as Norway, of their current arrangements with EU ?

  26. Capn Andy. says:

    Tartanfever. No. That’s a frequently quoted load of bollocks. All of the coastal European nations such as the French, Spanish, Dutch and all have historical rights from before the EU. Expect a lot of horse trading on fishing rights.

  27. mumsyhugs says:

    Right – that’s me lain back, thought of Scotland, and voted ‘Remain’. The things I do for my country! :/

  28. Macnakamura says:

    My question above does not read as clearly as it should.

    If Norway has to follow all of the rules in order to gain economic benefits then why not just join the EU ?

  29. mogabee says:

    Trust Westminster Scott?

    Erm that’ll be a no. 🙂

  30. O/T but interesting. About postal voting. An invitation from Andy Anderson to a meeting in the YES bar in Glasgow at 1pm on Saturday.

    Dear Friends,

    There is now clear evidence that the Postal Ballot on the Scottish independence Referendum was compromised. What is now beyond dispute is that:

    (a) Many people were aware of the contents of the PB Boxes before they were opened including Ruth Davidson

    (b) The claimed number of Postal voters in a number of areas of Scotland is not possible

    (c) There is an unexplained co-relation between the postal vote and the No vote

    (d) The UK postal voting system is unreliable and has been condemned in British and European Courts

    This has been known for some time, it has been investigated by the police, yet nothing has been done about it.

    Indeed the establishment want us to go away and forget about it.

    Well the Democratic Socialist Federation are not going to go away. We intend to expose this corruption. We will start with Ruth Davidson, who wants to hold the SNP Government’s “feet to the fire” to get accountability.
    She however knew about the results of the Postal Ballot before the sealed boxes had been opened, she said so on TV. So we intend to hold her “feet to the fire” and force her to disclose how she got this information, which could only have been obtained by illegal means, until she gives us an explanation. The one she gave before is not valid, the police know this, and we know it, so we demand the truth from her.
    We are re-launching a campaign starting with a meeting in the Yes Bar in Glasgow on Saturday 25th of June at 2pm.

  31. FatCandy says:

    Scotland will never get independence through the ballot box. To believe otherwise is delusional.

  32. Soon there will be no excuse to have, failed, Harris stuck inside my TV boax.

  33. Petra says:

    It’s clear that there’s NO route open to the UK re. trading in the single market, not the Norwegian or Swiss, whilst wanting to abolish the free movement of people; the people …. that is the ‘immigrants’ who seem to have ‘generated’ a great deal of support for Brexit.

    As to the the EU subsidies awarded to Scottish farmers and fishermen. This was brought up in Reporting Scotland earlier this week with Jim Sillars holding Court, pontificating, and talking a load of old cr*p, as per usual now it would seem, telling us all that he trusts Westminster to make up the EU subsidy shortfall. That’s the Jim Sillars, and more so his ‘on the ball’ wife Margo, who has spent a lifetime castigating Westminster and pointing out how untrustworthy it is. He ”wouldn’t trust them as far as he could throw them.” I just don’t get the man. What on earth is going on with him now? At times even seen to be nodding his head in agreement with Michael Forsythe FGS.

    Sillars guff was followed by the brilliant and more so honest Joanna Cherry stating ”Leave has produced no equivalent to the SNP’s White Paper. Nobody has told us who’s going to replace these subsidies.”

    Followed by Forsythe lying through his teeth. Forsythe who wants the whole of the UK to vote in any future Scottish Referendum. The man Sillars agrees with. You couldn’t make it up.

    Take a look. 21:50 minutes in.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07gqt5v/reporting-scotland-20062016

  34. Bugger (le Panda) says:

    @Macnakamura

    Norway would have had to have a Referendum first and they have had at least 2 maybe more which were rejected by electorate.

    Unlike EU countries which need to have another one, each time they reject a proposal; Ireland, Greece, Denmark, probably others

  35. heedtracker says:

    Poor wee souls. City spivery does a night shift, its FT headlines. How many billions will be trousered by the UKOK masters of the universe tomorrow? We’ll never as its funnelled away to UKOK tax havens anyway.

    “Traders and brokers across the City of London are bracing themselves for an all-night vigil as the votes are counted in the Brexit referendum.

    Senior staff and traders at banks including Citigroup, JPMorgan, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have been asked to stay overnight in the office while others are working in shifts between the UK market close on Thursday and its reopening on Friday morning.

    JPMorgan has booked hotel rooms for its staff in Canary Wharf while Citigroup has organised taxis to make sure key sales and trading employees arrive at the offices before 4am on Friday morning.

    The night shift at the banks is mainly being worked by traders in foreign exchange and interest rates markets and senior management.

  36. Petra says:

    Ooops apologies. It should have read ‘late wife Margo’ at 11:57am.

  37. heedtracker says:

    FT says

    Goldman Sachs’ private bank has told clients that the desk will be staffed all of Thursday night if they wish to trade. Both Goldman and JPMorgan are among banks warning clients that parts of the market may become illiquid and it could be difficult to execute some trades on Friday.

    Parties are taking place across the City on Thursday evening as the results begin to roll in from midnight onwards. While the overall picture could be clear by 3.30am, the official result is not expected until around breakfast time on Friday. Businessman Arron Banks’ Leave.eu grass roots movement is throwing a party at the altitude bar at Millbank.”

    It must be fantastic knowing all along that the sucka taxpayer underwrites your whole too big to fail business model, at any amount of bucks you pick.

    Socialism for the rich, austerity for the poor. How frightfully British. If this is our last day ever as European citizens, chin chin.

  38. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    @Macnakamura

    Norway is opted out of the Fisheries policy and controls the quotas it offers to other nations in order to fish the EU waters (Scotland mainly). As fishing is a far bigger industry for them it benefits them to do this.

  39. Scott Minto (Aka Sneekyboy) says:

    Bugger (le Panda) says:
    23 June, 2016 at 11:06 am
    “I am sorry, but I always believed that EU CAP payments do not go directly to Scotland but to London which decides which proportion of the allocation to send to Scotland.”

    This is true. But they wont have that money ‘coming in’ to be dished out.

  40. Petra says:

    Dealing a hammer blow to pro-independence supporters?

    Press and Journal: ‘Scotland could remain in the EU even if the rest of the UK were to vote to exit …. by Andrew Liddle.

    ‘The Greenland Treaty has set a “precedent” for Scotland to remain in the EU even if the rest of the UK votes to leave.’

    The Press and Journal can today reveal how Brussels rules could allow Scotland to stay in the EU even if voters in England and Wales back Brexit.

    Senior officials have confirmed it would be possible to redraw the member state’s borders so only Scotland would be subject to EU treaties in the event of an Out vote.

    Such a move would deal a hammer blow to pro-independence supporters who hope that Scotland “being dragged out of the EU against its will” could trigger a second referendum on Scottish separation.

    Polls have consistently suggested that Scottish voters support remaining in the EU – but the latest surveys south of the border suggests the rest of the UK may vote to leave. But EU expert Professor Sionaidh Douglas-Scott has confirmed there is a “precedent” for members to redefine what parts of their country are subject to EU rules – and it may not even need a complicated treaty change.

    She pointed to the 1985 Greenland Treaty, which saw the devolved government in Greenland secede from the EU but still remain a part of Denmark.

    The Queen Mary University academic argues this could allow Scotland to remain and the rest of the UK to leave, if voters support Brexit south of the border.

    She said: “It is possible for only part of a state to secede from the EU. Further, it would be ill-considered to dismiss Greenland as a precedent on the basis that Greenland is too small and unimportant to be significant. It might also be argued that the Greenland example sets a precedent in establishing that a member state may decide which part of its territory comes within the scope of EU law.”

    Article 29 of the Vienna Convention implies it would be possible for a new amendment treaty to redefine which parts of UK territory fall within the scope of EU law. “Indeed, it seems that sometimes amendment of the EU treaties is not even needed for this to happen.”

    Prof Douglas-Scott said that EU law “can be very malleable” and “given sufficient political determination, it can be possible to achieve almost anything”.

    She also said that countries such as Cyprus, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Gibraltar are further evidence of how “diverse parts of a state may have different relationships with the EU”.

    But she warned that hurdles would have to be overcome for the change to be possible, probably including the backing of the other 27 member states.

    She said: “The main issue to be negotiated at the time of Greenland’s departure concerned fish and fishing rights, whereas there are multiple issues of contention in the event of a Brexit.”

  41. Petra says:

    @ Dave McEwan Hill says at 11:50 am …. ”About postal voting. An invitation from Andy Anderson to a meeting in the YES bar in Glasgow at 1pm on Saturday. ………….”

    Way to go Andy. Well done and I hope you get a good turnout. Apologies from me. I’ll be elsewhere at the weekend celebrating my husband’s birthday.

  42. I believe every word Tom Harris says; not
    Roll on 10 o’clock tonight.

  43. I have tried assiduously to avoid listening to and watching the tripe being peddled by the two dire tory campaigns in the EU referendum.

    However I did catch Ex labour MP To Harris spouting about Scotland getting more powers as a result of Brexit.

    Has he forgotten that he and all his other unionist cronies fought tooth and nail to prevent Scotland getting any meaningful powers.

    Are we to seriously believe that they now have had a
    complete change of heart on the subject?

    Also what part of German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble’s interview in Der Spiegel about there being no chances of UK after Brexit, enjoying single market access bloc benefits from outside EU.

    Do the unionists not understand?

    In Der Spiegel interview German finance minister rules out Britain’s chances of enjoying bloc benefits from outside EU

  44. Petra says:

    Wee Ginger Dug: ‘Taking back some control of Scotland’s own’

    ”If Brexit wins that broken, incompetent, and inadequate Westminster will reign unchallenged and supreme. Take back control the Brexiteers keep repeating. A vote to leave the EU is a vote to put all power, all decisions, all control, in the hands of a ramshackle and corrupt excuse for a parliament. They want to take back control for the posh public schoolboys who have a disproportionate chance of getting into a position of power, not for the poor. They want to take back control for the financial industries of the City of Westminster, not for the trade unions. They want to take back control for the Westminster parliament with its unfair voting system and its unelected House of Lords so that Michael Forsyth can rest easy on his ermine clad arse, not for popular democracy. When the patricians tell the plebeians that they want to take back control that’s not good news for the people…….”

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/taking-back-some-control-of-scotlands-own/

    Wee Ginger Dug: ‘The politics of d’oh’

    ”We’ve had the ludicrous spectacle of Brexiteer Unionists who were perfectly happy for Scotland to be ruled by politicians that we don’t elect and can’t get rid of complaining that it’s unjust for a country to be governed by politicians that it doesn’t elect and can’t get rid of. We’ve had Michael bloody Forsyth of all people, pontificating about how unfair it is that our laws are made by unelected and unaccountable politicians that we’re stuck with no matter how we vote. You don’t say, Mikey, you don’t say. We’ve had the nauseating sight of Iain Duncan Smith on the one side, and George Osborne on the other, posing as the champions of the poor……”

    https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/06/21/the-politics-of-doh/

  45. Robert Peffers says:

    @Phil Robertson says: 23 June, 2016 at 10:55 am:

    ” … Or the Scottish Government for that matter,
    http://stv.tv/news/politics/1357424-farm-payment-delays-costs-taxpayer-over-100-000-so-far/

    For some reason the image of a red London bus had suddenly popped into my mind as I read the early posts in this thread.

    The very next comment, (I repeat it above. It is by Phil Robertson), proved, “Ye Olde English proverb”, to be still extant.

    I thought:-

    “Don’t worry, Dear! There’ll be another one along in a minute “

    .

    and there was Phil’s comment, right on cue. I could do nothing other than laugh. Some Scots always have a glass that is always half-empty.

    Mind you a wise man already posted that if Scotland gained control of Fishing someone would claim that they would only control fish that were the wrong kind of fish that no one wanted. I expect that was what inspired the image of a red London bus.

    Och! Weel! I really needed a guid lach the day.

  46. Breeks says:

    @ Macnakamura:

    If I was a Norwegian, I might be thoroughly satisfied that my country would easily pass EU membership criteria, but being such a fantastically wealthy and stable Country, I might be concerned that my country’s actual capacity and ability to pay in comparison to need, and what I might draw back to achieve market compatabilty with poorer EU economies makes membership somewhat less appealing. As a full member, however you might dress it up, it is hard to see anything but a steep gradient of wealth leaving Norway bound for poorer countries of Europe seeking to raise the performance of their own economies.

    Its a fair position which a McCrone type Scotland, that is one which actually benefitted from decades of its oil, with a very hard currency and an embarrassment of riches, would be equally free to consider. Sadly, we are not.

    An emerging Scotland however, decades of gross mismanagement by Westminster is sadly not in the same position as Norway by a country mile… or should I say kilometer. Europe is good news for us.

  47. robertknight says:

    Postal votes have always been open to abuse and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of shenanigans going on at counts with postal votes and people turning up at polling stations only to be told they’ve been listed as a postal vote, without their knowledge.

    However, in the case of the Indy Ref. unless dodgy postal votes amount to half a million votes, it can’t have changed the result.

    That said, it should be investigated as the whole postal vote system should be scrapped – broken beyond repair.

  48. orri says:

    The point about Greenland is that it became a semi-autonomous region of the EEC (not the EU) and then negotiated it’s way out. At a minimum the EU might require a clearly defined federal structure before it’d accept Scotland and, perhaps Gibraltar, as being the only remaining part of UK territory within the EU. Nor would Scotland having to conform with EU law whilst the rUK didn’t work without Holyrood gaining legislative power over those areas. A hammerblow only if you think of it as a kick in the arse towards full independence.

  49. t42 says:

    People rightly ask “what’s in it for me?”
    But i wont be voting for myself.

    I’ll be voting on behalf of the 33% of the population who voted Leave 40 years ago, to be labelled as xenophobes, or worse. Their opinion has been ignored for 40 years.

    I’ll also be voting on behalf of the 66% of the population who voted Remain 40 years ago, who were mis-sold a “common market” based on trade. They never realised their Remain vote would encourage the unchecked growth of the corrupt, undemocratic, wasteful, EU we have today.

    The EU doesn’t deserve any further encouragement.

  50. Robert Peffers says:

    @Petra says: 23 June, 2016 at 12:20 pm:

    ” … Polls have consistently suggested that Scottish voters support remaining in the EU – but the latest surveys south of the border suggests the rest of the UK may vote to leave.”,

    And there, Petra, is a very large fly in their argumental Ointment.

    It makes their usual wrong assumption that Scotland is only one of four countries in a country incongruously titled, for some apparently unknown reason as, “The United KINGDOM.

    The actual United Kingdom is exactly what it says on the tin – a bi-partite union of only two equally sovereign Kingdoms and thus any decisions that involve countries just cannot be applied.

    You will not find a single mention of, “country”, 0r, “countries”, in either the Treaty itself. Nor will you find it in either Kingdom’s Act of Union.

  51. heedtracker says:

    They never realised their Remain vote would encourage the unchecked growth of the corrupt, undemocratic, wasteful, EU we have today.

    Usual rule britannia mince and you cant even be arsed to back your corrupt, undemocratic, wasteful slander either.

    It’s just like having to watch Michael Bruce Forsyth, Baron Forsyth of Drumlean rant away at how undemocratic the EU, as he banks his £300+ a day un-elected UKOK job for life at one of the world’s most corrupt and undemocratic “chambers.”

    Mike’s not see a teamGB ballot box for decades and never will.

  52. Alan Mackintosh says:

    Dave M-H, is this the analysis which was done by Dale Potter which analysed the voting patterns?

    Robert Knight, if it is the analysis above then the figure of spurious votes was in the order of 400,000, so yes it did have an effect.

  53. Lenny Hartley says:

    I spoke with a neighbour this morning, a Yes voter who was going to vote out. He said that we would ge able to trade with the USA and the rest of the world if we were out of Europe.

    He appeared to believe being in the EU stopped us from trading with any other country, I wonder how many Chinese tools and Japanese electronic equipment he has in his house.

    One of my friends said once, you need a TV licence, you need a marriage Licence, you need a dog licence (it was a while ago) you should be required to pass a basic intelligence test before gaining a licence to vote, I think he may well have been correct.

    Polling booth was quiet in Brodick this morning , hopefully apathy won’t rule.

  54. Petra says:

    Good one from Chunky Mark: ‘EU referendum the most vile evil political campaign in a lifetime, a Tory tool for power.’

    ”Brexit: Do you hate foreigners? Yes or No? …..

    Tories will unite knowing that a job has been done…..

    They have radicalised a generation …. millions, millions….

    Fear, fear has been spread across this land like a wildfire with a single purpose …. a tool for power ..”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b0p4OxUbxU

  55. Bugger (le Panda) says:

    @ Petra

    Greenland was not part of State of Denmark but was part of the Kingdom of Denmark, which it still is.

    the Faroe Island is even more complicated, maybe like Jersey or Guernsey.

    Some time ago I exchanged e-mails with a political administrator in Greenland about this having made a similar error. He politely explained to me the nuances of the situation and yes, it took 2 years to disentangle from EU.

  56. Dan Huil says:

    Busy at my polling station in Moray. Many RAF voters. I wonder…

  57. Dr Jim says:

    Neighbour: “Where ye off tae the day” Me “I’m off tae vote”
    Neighbour: “Whit ur we votin oan noo” Me “It’s the EU vote tae see if we’re in or oot”
    Neighbour: “Ach we were in that before it wiznae any use then and it’ll no be noo” Me “Naw we’re in it noo this is tae see if we want oot huv ye no heard aboot it”
    Neighbour: “If it’s anything tae dae with that SNP Wummin ah don’t want tae know”

    I live in the land before time “Bishopbriggs 2016”
    Feel for me folks

  58. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim: I can offer you asylum in the Perpetual People’s Republic of Cadzow (Yes in 2016 if you disregard Larkhall).

    Just bring plenty of change for the town centre parking.

    And report to The Hub for canvassing duty on arrival.

    2017: the year of the Great Purge…..

  59. orri says:

    The important thing about the post referendum poll and analysis of the Great Referendum was that it restricted itself to Scotland rather than the UK as a whole. The results themselves indicated a far narrower defeat than we got. One possible reason is genuine 100% legitimate postal votes from the rUK not being polled. Just as this time a large portion of the 1.3 million UK citizens in the EU might vote despite not having been polled.

  60. Tinto Chiel says:

    Sorry, 2014, obviously.

    And the Great Purge isn’t Iain Gray, before anybody starts.

  61. Robert Kerr says:

    O/T but light relief.

    Part of an e-mail from a friend in the Black Country regarding comments by her 9 year old nephews.

    “The other night I asked the boys if they understood why they were off school today and what the referendum was for. They assured me they did so I asked them how they would vote and Jake says he would vote for Donald Trump, Tom agreed with enthusiasm.

    It shows how a 9 year olds mind works and how they think they know a lot but it can easily be mixed up.”

    It transpires that Donald Trump is a bit of a god amongst 9 year olds as Trump is popular word for a bodily function that is otherwise regarded as a swear word”.

    Enjoy

  62. heedtracker says:

    I live in the land before time “Bishopbriggs 2016”
    Feel for me folks

    Other end of that UKOK spectrum, last night’s BBC Newsnight, a tight circle of tories, centre right maybe but reaching right into UKOK proto fascist lands.

    BBC Newsnight guest list included, Rupert Murdoch’s The Sun henchman Kavanagh, rancid The Graun’s fake prog lib editor, cant mind his name, fluffed his lines really badly though, Niall Ferguson, UKOK proto fascist history to rule Britannia, who explained to us 2014, vote YES and you’ll be living in a failed state before you can say, I wish England still ran Scotland.

    I shit you not. Niall lives and works at Harvard uni but lectured Scots 2014 – before 1707, Scotland was a war torn shithole and will be again

    “This, then, gives us a hint of what Alex Salmond’s brave new Scotland would really be like: a divided and rancorous society with a vindictive style of politics. If that sounds familiar, that’s because it nicely sums up Scotland as it was before the Union.

  63. Grouse Beater says:

    “This, then, gives us a hint of what Alex Salmond’s brave new Scotland would really be like: a divided and rancorous society with a vindictive style of politics.”

    Yes, that sounds like Ferguson, alright. And he still calls himself an historian having sold his soul to the extreme Right years ago in return for dubious fame.

    Irony is, his entire mind-set ‘USA best’ is corroded with with animus and hostility.

  64. donald mac says:

    O/T,

    On a previous thread I read someone saying 98% of our laws are made in the UK and only 2% are EU laws. Can anyone give me a link to this info as there’s a heated debate going on here! Thanks

  65. Grouse Beater says:

    LEAVE never produced a plausible, coherent argument, and so because of what the brutal EU Bank did to Greece, I voted REMAIN but with no great enthusiasm. The EU needs kicked back into democratic shape. The writing is on the wall.

  66. Tinto Chiel says:

    @ Scott Minto, meant to say:

    Thanks for a very well-researched article, with the usual sad conclusion about probable WM perfidy. I wanted to ask you if you know if access to our fishing grounds was an essential demand from the then EEC in 1975 or whether it was tossed away as a sweetener by that nice Mr Heath?

  67. Iain More says:

    OT sort of

    I don’t know if this is allowed to say but turn out where I am in Moray is looking right low and it is a fine day so far.
    Speaking to the folks working in the polling station and they say it is barely above the Holyrood Election turn out up to this point. I don’t know if anybody else is experiencing that or seen that.

    Make of it what you will!

  68. Macart says:

    @donald mac

    Its not so much EU laws as what or how many laws are affected by EU legislation. Currently this disputed figure is quoted as between 13% and 15%.

    https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-what-proportion-influenced-eu/

    and page 15 of:

    http://www.scotlandineurope.eu/wee_bleu_book

  69. crazycat says:

    @ Iain More

    When I went to vote there were about a dozen people inside the polling station, with several leaving as I arrived and vice versa.

    That’s more than I usually see, though that is probably a fluke related to the time I happened to be there. In the 2014 Euro election, turnout in my council area was under 30%. Lack of enthusiasm for those elections might not be relevant today, though.

  70. heedtracker says:

    Grouse Beater

    Ferguson is an ultra yoonster tory which is fine. He’s a future Lord Tomnkins style chancer, making a good living both boosting and feeding toryboy world, in the UK and the US.

    All of which is fine, its a toryboy world, shysters like Tomkins and Ferguson are boils on the arse of any democracy anywhere. Its just that the relentless bias of the BBC meant that even Ferguson was a moderate, in comparison to Murdoch’s running dog lackey Kavanagh.

    Kavanagh’s probably done as much as say Ligger Neil to keep teamGB slithering further and further right and ofcourse, out of the EU, one way or another.

    The BBC is stuffed with exact same toryboys, either farted out by the private ed, oxbridge conveyor belt or state school counter jumper oiks like Mike Gove and Prof Tomkins. There really is nothing to be done about it now.

  71. Vestas says:

    Polling stations here in the East Mids (Leics) are very busy.

    I was down at our local polling station & its busier than I’ve seen for any election in the last 20 years.

    That’s not entirely surprising as there’s usually bugger all point in voting in any election other than the parish council as its diehard Tory here. However the car park down there has been heaving since the polls opened and that indicates a turnout percentage which probably hasn’t been seen since the 1950s in this area.

    Given “Remain” didn’t really bother campaigning in the East Mids/East of England it’ll come as no surprise that most of those votes are for “Leave”….

  72. Taranaich says:

    Been at my usual polling station. Good turnout so far, might even approach GE turnout. I’ve only encountered 3 possible leavers. Everyone else said they’re Remain: hardly anyone didn’t say how they were voting.

    My unionist best reins said on Facebook: “nationalism is a virus on humanity. Vote remain.” EVEN WHEN WE’RE VOTING THE SAME WAY, he couldn’t help himself. Instead of something positive about the EU, he posts this hateful & hurtful comment. I just don’t understand how he can have so little regard, even hatred, of my beliefs.

    Even if we get the result we both want, he’s going to be like this. It’ll never stop, as long as we’re in this wretched United Kingdom.

  73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Grouse Beater @ 10:25 said:

    Boris photographed kissing a fish

    One a Burlingtonian, always a Burlingtonian, no?

    Actually, the Rev Stu made a point here that reminded me very much of the demutualisations of the recent past, where carpetbaggers took out membership of building societies then went on a “sell, sell sell” campaign that convinced a lot of members to give away their hard-won rights for their thirty pieces of silver. (And which really turned out well, didn’t it?)

    Except in this case the voting turkeys likely won’t even see the silver!

  74. Big Jock says:

    Taranaich – You know what your answer is to that then. We should dissolve WM and let Brussels take over. Lets take British nationalism out of the equation as well. Strangely I would rather have this form of rule than WM. I think it would be fairer on Scotland, and I might actually be proud of my nationality rather than embarassed.

  75. Ken500 says:

    Scotland could make more from EU renewable grants than it does from fishing. A big industry. Westminster indecision stopped the opportunity for Scotland to apply for EU renewable grants.

    Fishing families made more from Oil than fishing. The Wood’s, Craig’s etc.

    Russian factory ships got licences’s to fish the West coast. Any gov would have conservation measures. The seas were over fished. Norway used conservation nets.

  76. Mick DIAMOND says:

    Fatcandy 11.52am. Agree with you on that.

  77. Dr Jim says:

    The Land Before Time

    Many of my neighbours and I mean many wouldn’t even notice if we were Independent, many of them don’t even realise the SNP are the actual Government but they know they don’t like them whatever they are

    As long as their pensions turn up in their bank accounts, the free bus comes for the over 80s which they’re all very quick to tell me I’m not entitled to use because I’m a youngster of a mere 67 and Morrisons round the corner do their reductions on cakes at the right times life is good

    These people do not watch the news, they might have it on but they have no interest in what’s being said, but they CAN tell you who they like and don’t like
    All their information is brought to them via the medium of the window cleaner or the next door pensioners son who works in a hospital in Corby who’s got a friend in the council, and that makes it a fact

    These people are entitled to vote and yet this time our youngsters who this vote affects the most, aren’t
    Funnily enough I overheard some well off older teens walking from the polling station this morning discussing their LEAVE vote excitedly

    Bishopbriggs where I live is mostly affluent and yet voted SNP like everywhere else but I often wonder where are my people hiding and why
    I never thought there’d be such a thing as shy SNP voters

  78. heedtracker says:

    Fit like Times headline

    North-east politicians have been snubbed over an oil and gas summit being organised by Aberdeen City Council.

    The local authority has not invited any of the region’s MP or MSPs to the event – and insists it is aimed at “leaders”.

    “It is a shame the city council is not following their example.”

    But council leader Jenny Laing said event on June 30 was “meant for leaders”.

    She said: “This is a meeting for leaders – a meaningful discussion with others who are at the sharp end of the oil and gas crisis.

    “We have invited the Scottish Government through Nicola Sturgeon and the UK Government through David Mundell.

    “It is for them to determine who represents them at this meeting.

    “It is deeply disappointing that Callum McCaig has chosen to try and score cheap political points off the back of this downturn at a time when so many people are losing their jobs.”

    Fascinating to see if Europe’s oil capital votes Brexit. It may well do as its very English nat tory now. UKOK ACC currently throwing up another city centre £100+ million white elephant, massive opposition, also pissing away £40 million on Aberdeen art gallery revamp, shut for 5 years, massive opposition and on it goes.

    Look at me eh, another of Jennies vile seps “try and score cheap political points off the back of this downturn at a time when so many people are losing their jobs”

    Jennie Lang’s signed off several massive white elephants in Aberdeen. Her CV, left school, got married, head of ACC, ultra unionist, as per.

  79. donald mac says:

    Thanks Macart. Very useful info

  80. Titler says:

    Voted in Bristol East, an area Remain has to swing to stand a chance (working class, Labour voting), but turnout so far has been lower than at the General, not a good sign. Spoke to a few people around and about, everyone is very cagey about the issue, and anyone who asked if I voted wouldn’t say how they had… all of which leads me to suspect the Leave vote is larger than predicted, or at least, the Remain vote is not as confident as assumed.

    I hope I’m wrong, but we’ll see.

  81. heedtracker says:

    Every time you look:D Wonder what our imperial master baiters will do to Scotland, if we do keep “us” in the EU? Thank you so much Proud Scotbuts.

    Wings Scotlandsson Retweeted
    Paul Oakley UKIP ?@PaulJamesOakley May 12
    Scotland had better not keep us in the EU against the wishes of the rest of the UK #bbcqt

  82. stewartb says:

    An interesting/useful review of Norway’s status in the EU and why it is as it is.

    http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_lessons_from_the_norway_eu_relationship_7046

  83. gordoz says:

    O/T Q : Everybody and their Gran at Euros

    Nearly all proud independent countries fighting their corners
    Except good old Scotbritland.

    Come on yoons Better Together ? Seriously FFS Scotland
    Id like the proudscotbrotscotbrits to explain that guff

  84. Valerie says:

    @Dr Jim

    I feel for you. These OAPs could be my mother, who is an Irish citizen, but cringes big time.

    The Rancid is like the holy word being delivered. Today she informed me ‘that big new hospital in Glasgow is still a mess’.

    Good job she is in the catchment for the ‘butchers shop’ in Paisley, and is on regular visits to her GP, so she can be told there’s nothing wrong.

    Any taxes she paid, must have been exhausted years ago, with her GP visits.

    I’ve given up speaking about anything good being done, as I obviously present these facts to annoy her.

    It’s hard going, and I always shudder to think I might end up like these folk.

    My 30 year old niece, is like a breath of fresh air. She tells me that in 5 years, the demographic holding us back will be dead, and we will be independent after that.

  85. heedtracker says:

    Anyone for any more rancid The Graun hypocrisy n bollox? It’ll make you either throw up or larf all the way to the polling station

    From just one more Britnat crew that poops all over Scottish democracy with

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/bellend4.jpg

    http://archive.is/Eqe15

    Polly says make nice peeps because

    “I’m no fan, but respect for the democratic process and for the people does require a measure of respect for democratically elected office-holders.

    The tabloid press outdid even its own lowest level in contempt for public intelligence, spreading shameless lies its challenge is: who rules, the media barons or the elected politicians? We shall see today. For better or worse, we shall know who we really are today.”

  86. Chic McGregor says:

    @Petra
    “It’s clear that there’s NO route open to the UK re. trading in the single market, not the Norwegian or Swiss, whilst wanting to abolish the free movement of people; the people …. that is the ‘immigrants’ who seem to have ‘generated’ a great deal of support for Brexit.”

    It should have also been made clear that new member states (and a brexited UK re-applying would be a new member state) are now required by the acquis, to accept Schengen. See:

    http://www.euractiv.com/section/enlargement/opinion/the-schengen-acquis-and-the-new-member-states/

    Ditto for ECHR.

  87. manandboy says:

    The EU is very big and extremely powerful. Whenever a member state holds a referendum, the result of which doesn’t suit the EU, a re-run is ordered. The UK is a vital member of the EU. The idea that the EU will tolerate this squabble in the Tory Party as a serious threat to the political and economic security of the EU is laughable.

    This result WILL be fixed.

  88. Ruby says:

    http://tinyurl.com/jjny36s

    This is where I go to vote. Down the stair where the motorcyclist is. It’s the council building the one that has that horrible Everyman Statue outside. A statue by a German ‘artist’ that cost us a fortune.
    All the building work you see on the left is finished and it all looks very impressive. Theres a big new coffee shop I think its Nero (it has loads of balloons outside perhaps it has just newly opened) a Premier Inn, an Indian restaurant (open shortly) etc etc

    Pity I didn’t take my camera with me I could have done a photo essay of my trip to the polling station. ‘Ramblin’ with Ruby’

    Not to worry there are some pics on the internet

    http://tinyurl.com/za6ttkj
    the building on the cover the one that is almost all glass is going to be an Indian restaurant

    http://tinyurl.com/jlohmyr

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wqltx

    an artists impression:
    http://tinyurl.com/zph3jxh

    Everyman statue
    http://tinyurl.com/z3m7854

    I did ask the men at the polling station about turnout and they said if was steady.

    I also rambled along Calton Road. I hate that road but it is showing signs of improvement. Perhaps episode 2 of Ramblin’ with Ruby will be along Calton Road.

    Tut!
    1st & 2nd July all roads around here will be closed Fifth session of parliament/ movement of the crown or some such thing.

  89. Ruby says:

    Do post with too many links end up in the sandpit?

  90. Ruby says:

    http://tinyurl.com/jjny36s

    This is where I go to vote. Down the stair where the motorcyclist is. It’s the council building the one that has that horrible Everyman Statue outside. A statue by a German ‘artist’ that cost us a fortune.
    All the building work you see on the left is finished and it all looks very impressive. Theres a big new coffee shop I think its Nero (it has loads of balloons outside perhaps it has just newly opened) a Premier Inn, an Indian restaurant (open shortly) etc etc

    Pity I didn’t take my camera with me I could have done a photo essay of my trip to the polling station. ‘Ramblin’ with Ruby’

    Not to worry there are some pics on the internet.

  91. FatCandy says:

    @heedtracker, 4.26. From that article you refer to there is use of the word “counterfact”. I mean seriously, WTF is that? A lie? Is it an oxymoron? Like “toxic-asset”?

    This is exactly what is wrong with political discourse in the UK, it is based on utter shite, not fact.

  92. heedtracker says:

    manandboy

    This result WILL be fudged.

    EU’s too big to break free from. Its a lot like what Scottish independence will be.

    Tons of EU union stuff that UKIP loonies think they’re voting out of today cant be voted out of.

    EU fudge. Tasty.

  93. Ruby says:

    continued from earlier post

    Not to worry there are some pics on the internet.

    http://tinyurl.com/za6ttkj
    the building on the cover the one that is almost all glass is going to be an Indian restaurant

    http://tinyurl.com/jlohmyr

  94. Ruby says:

    Part 3 I has to split up this post into three parts due to too many links.

    http://tinyurl.com/j4wqltx

    an artists impression:
    http://tinyurl.com/zph3jxh

    Everyman statue
    http://tinyurl.com/z3m7854

    I did ask the men at the polling station about turnout and they said if was steady.

    I also rambled along Calton Road. I hate that road but it is showing signs of improvement. Perhaps episode 2 of Ramblin’ with Ruby will be along Calton Road.

  95. Ruby says:

    Ooops typo in earlier post should be corner not cover.

    Tut! All roads around here will be closed on 1st/2nd July for the movement of the crown or some such thing.

    I’ll have to walk everywhere!

  96. Squall Cloud says:

    Voted remain today!

  97. Brian McHugh says:

    Just a wee report… I voted this morning and couldn’t help but notice the unique number and barcode. It practically took up the entire rear of the ballot paper.

    I could’t not have noticed it on my Indy Ref ballot, as I folded the ballot in half. No matter which side you looked at, as you placed it in the slot on the box, the barcode was clearly visable.

    The Scottish Ref was rigged. To what extent I do not know, but but as far as I am concerned, illegitimate ballots mean it was rigged enough for me.

    Voting today just made me even more angry about 2014.

  98. John H. says:

    Dr Jim 3.52pm.

    I know exactly what you mean Dr Jim. I used to live in Bishopbriggs, and before the 2014 referendum some of us went out canvassing in the Meadowburn area. We must have gone round dozens of houses that afternoon, and by the time we had finished we were all thoroughly depressed.

    We found two Yes voters out of all those people. The folk there were mostly retired, fairly well off, and didn’t want to even listen to what we had to say. Thank God I now live in an area where the people are more reasonable and less selfish.

  99. heedtracker says:

    Thank God I now live in an area where the people are more reasonable and less selfish.

    So what’s Mayfair and Knightsbridge like then?

  100. Onwards says:

    Voted REMAIN, mainly because I think a Brexit would be a disaster for the chances of Scottish independence.

    We wouldn’t win a snap referendum due to the size of the current deficit.
    The best timing is in another 4 or 5 years.

    But asking voters at that time to vote for Scottish independence with an intention to rejoin the EU is a far harder sell. That is dividing the vote twice.

    If we didn’t propose to rejoin the EU, we would see a new Project Fear based on the threat of tariffs to trade with the UK.

    At least the EU guarantees freedom of trade.

  101. K1 says:

    Brian McHugh, same here, exactly what I thought when I was in the box this morning, there is no way there were any barcodes on the 3 ballot papers that I crossed for Yes on the 18th September…I will never forget this. Nor forgive. I take a photo now of every ballot front and back since then.

    We’ve got 2017 coming up soon enough…time to clear the houses.

  102. K1 says:

    From the Rev’s twitter feed, it’s looking like a high turnout in Scotland.

    ‘Mary Pitkeithley just interviewed on BBC estimates turnout at 70-80% #EUref’

  103. yesindyref2 says:

    This works out as £163 million a week; considerably less than the often quoted (and wrong) £350 million a week cited by ‘Leave’.

    That was a classic case of the Truth would have set Leave free. Boris tried to improve on it by saying “take control”, as indeed £350 million a week is under control of the EU. The UK’s contribution is assessed at say £18 billion, but the rebate takes it down – the rebate is under control of the EU via negotiations with the UK.

    Then there’s the funding which is also under the control of the EU, but according to formula and application.

    So the EU does control £350 million per week, but the cost to the UK nett is much less, i.e. £163 million a week.

    Had Leave been honest, they could have made a correct argument.

  104. Liz Rannoch says:

    Flipping through the channels just heard (on 5News)… Nigel Farage has already voted.. and so has Nicola Sturgeon “the head of the SNP” !!?!!
    Ignorant or what?
    One for Grouse Beater?

  105. Chic McGregor says:

    Might have been just the couple of pages I saw but it looked like only about 10-20% unscored out at 5:30pm in Kirrie. Not, of course, a scientific sample.

    No remain sign outside, only leave.

  106. heedtracker says:

    Wings Scotlandsson Retweeted
    Libby Brooks ?@libby_brooks 18m18 minutes ago
    Scotland’s chief returning officer Mary Pitkeithley just interviewed on BBC estimates turnout at 70-80%

    That cant be right. Why only last night on BBC r4 teatime toryboy brainwashing n propaganda news, gorgeous pouting Sarah Smith said that Scotland is too weak and tired from too many “political events.” And that’s why there will be no more referendums in her scotland region.

    Isn’t it funny how SLab and the BBC utterly detest democracy.

  107. Proud Cybernat says:

    Even if the UK votes Remain (which I think it will) by a small margin, this issue will continue to fester. And the EU will see that and will be thinking that, sooner or later, there will be a second EU-Ref and the UK WILL leave. So, with that in mind, come IndyRef#2, will the EU countries be so hostile to Indy Scotland continuing its membership as an Indy country? Course they will–especially when they know that the UK will leave sooner or later.

    Two Votes for REMAIN from me & Mrs PC.

  108. yesindyref2 says:

    See all these polling stations? I wonder if they were under instruction to cover up the “emergency exit” signs, lest they be though of as biased.

  109. Proud Cybernat says:

    “Course they will–especially when they know that the UK will leave sooner or later.”

    Should read:

    “Course they won’t–especially when they know that the UK will leave sooner or later.”

  110. Liz Rannoch says:

    me @ 5.40

    So sorry I was flipping and got mixed up.
    It was BBC News at 5 on the BBC News Channel!

    Silly me – should have known better.

  111. heedtracker says:

    and so has Nicola Sturgeon “the head of the SNP” !!?!!
    Ignorant or what?

    Last night BBC Newsnight called Sturgeon the ” Scots nat leader.” It was a really long thing about how Bojo and the Pig Fancier aren’t as great friends as they were at Eton or Harrow or Cambridge or Oxford. Sonorous and historic voice over/arse give Sturgeon the Scots Nat leader quick mention as at some EU tv debate or something.

    Its worth an iplay if youre having trouble dropping off tonight, boring, ugly old tory gits drone on, trying to sound momentous and historic and all that’s left is a tory twit with his dingdong in the mouth of a roast pigs head.

    Such is the BBC.

  112. manandboy says:

    Libby Brooks, the Guardian’s Scotland correspondent, tells us on Twitter that Mary Pitkeithly, (Convener of the Electoral Management Board for Scotland and the Chief Counting Officer for IndyRef14), expects a turnout of around 80%.

    Sounds a bit optimistic, but in any event, you’d think Libby Brooks could get Mary Pitcaithly’s name right.

    Good staff are so hard to come by these days.

  113. heedtracker says:

    https://next.ft.com/content/aed0a02e-392c-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7

    FT bites the UKOK bullet. You have to wonder what they’ll all use to monster Scotland with, if or when NOT Scots oil goes back up to average barrel prices. Although Lord Flipper Darling had that covered too 2014, before legging it.

  114. arthur thomson says:

    @ Onwards 5.14

    Yours is a good analysis in my view.

    I anticipate that this referendum is going to expose the reality of the weakness of Westminster. No matter whether leave or remain, the key nations in the EU – Germany and France – are going to give short shrift to Britnat delusions of punching above their weight. They won’t be punching in the EU anytime soon. How long before the EU announces new plans to reinforce its togetherness? Days, weeks or months. And Westminster will have to suck it all up in the face of outrage from those who wanted to get out of it all.

    Exactly how this will affect the drive for Scotland’s independence from the UK remains to be seen. I think it will be a bumpy road but I am confident the outcome will be positive. Most importantly, I think that Scotland is going to continue to get significantly and observably better while all the wailing and gnashing of teeth is going off in London.

  115. Andy says:

    Voted in London in line with (Scottish) internationalist duty.

    Polling station was pretty deserted when I voted at noon, but slightly more bodies than for London Mayor elections, when the station was just me and the tumbleweed. I live in an area with a large Asian community, not quite sure where they stand on Remain/Leave.

    There was not a bar code on the back, but an individual identifying number including abbreviation of constituency.

    London is being hit by torrential rain, which is causing severe travel delays and commuters will find it a real hassle to get back home again. That should dampen the Remain vote for London, I think — if not, I would suspect some shenanigans with the final results, because London count MUST be down.

    Only saw a handful of campaigners (for IN) on final day (yesterday). Have to say they would probably have convinced a DK or even a Remain voter to vote Leave: Tory boys standing on the pavement, obstructing pedestrians by talking loudly among themselves; Labour women outside Islington supermarket campaigning with large picture of Jo Cox (very bad taste) and dancing around like Green Party members high on drugs.

    I suspect the win for Remain to be around 53%, because I believe the 52% mark is that by which Scotland would keep rUK in the EU, so will be kept slightly above that so all can be “better together” on the good ship UKOK…

  116. Grouse Beater says:

    Liz Rannoch: “Nicola Sturgeon “the head of the SNP”!!?!!”

    You just know speaking the words ‘First Minister’ sticks in their craw.

  117. Les Wilson says:

    If remain wins by a sliver, we can shout gleefully that it was our votes that won it. Good, but just watch how the Brexit media foam at the mouth and will want to punish Scotland for winning the day for remain.

    That could really be the case as polls are so tight.
    We live in interesting times.

    I have been watching the Sterling/Euro exchange rate back and forward as it may give an indication, as traders will get the word first. It must be running very close as it has been trading in a very tight range all day.So we may win it with those dastardly Scottish votes.

  118. Tinto Chiel says:

    “See all these polling stations? I wonder if they were under instruction to cover up the “emergency exit” signs, lest they be though of as biased.”

    Indyref2: 😀

    Don’t have a licence so have only just seen that wee dweeb Toby Young telling AS that in the event of Indyref2 following Brexit, Scotland would have to use the Euro because all new joining states have to.

    TC (Cups ear): This just in! Scotland is IN the EU and is the successor state in the event of English Cheery-bye. Ergo: not a new state.

    Amazed Alec didn’t just cross the floor and deck him. What an utterly insignificant, bumptious little fud Toby is. And, in the great tradition of all Establishment dorks/duds/fuds, he hasn’t a clue what he’s talking about, but he does it with such authority. A knighthood must be in the offing.

    I wish Ian B had finished his searing cummerbund-ripping exposé now.

  119. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Good wee poll running right now, link via WOS Twitter, asking who you’ll be supporting when England meet Iceland next Monday.

    Currently 93% Iceland.

  120. mike cassidy says:

    If you still have the will to live

    the Euractiv.com website has a list of eu referenda

    http://archive.is/BtWVN

    and an article outlining a possible post-referendum timetable.

    http://archive.is/gv0no

  121. galamcennalath says:

    Apparently Leave have contacted supporters to warn them that London & Scotland might keep them in the EU.

    I can only assume Scotland and London have been singled out as places where the true ethnic English don’t live!

  122. Cactus says:

    Hey Scottish voters, if you’re still undecided about going to vote or which option to vote for when you get there.. you’ve got less than 3 hours to make your historic contribution.

    Get yourselves up, down or along to your local polling station and pull that one-armed-bandit one more time.. do it for yourself!!

    The turnout appears to be good for us and it looks like a majority of most of the people in Scotland are going to, vote to remain.. maybe you should consider doing the same.

    The previous article to this one is helpful if you remain undecided.

    Be positive 🙂

  123. Bob Mack says:

    Just back from polling station.Remain x 2. There was a guy doing a computerised exit poll but he declined to say for who.He stated the turnout has been consistent and constant over the day.

  124. Petra says:

    @ ronnie anderson says at 7:05 pm ….O/T.

    http://www.facebook.com/groups/scot2.scot/801383959996417/?comment_id=801494396652040&notif_t=like&notif_id=1466703962038188

    My husband and I cast our votes around 5:30 tonight. The staff were saying that nearly 60% had voted already and they expected to see that rise when the ‘working’ voters arrived later.

    And yes Ronnie we used the PENCILS in the booths!

    ………………………………………………

    @ Dr Jim says at 2:00 pm ………………

    Neighbour: “Where ye off tae the day”
    Me “I’m off tae vote”
    Neighbour: “Whit ur we votin oan noo”
    Me “It’s the EU vote tae see if we’re in or oot”
    Neighbour: “Ach we were in that before it wiznae any use then and it’ll no be noo”
    Me “Naw we’re in it noo this is tae see if we want oot huv ye no heard aboot it”
    Neighbour: “If it’s anything tae dae with that SNP Wummin ah don’t want tae know”

    I live in the land before time “Bishopbriggs 2016.” Feel for me folks.”

    Thanks for the laugh Dr Jim. Sounds fairly typical to me. The Elecorate should be questioned at the polling station, such as ”do you know who / what you’re voting for?”, before they’re allowed to post a vote.

    ………………………………………………

    @ donald mac says at 2:54 pm …. ”On a previous thread I read someone saying 98% of our laws are made in the UK and only 2% are EU laws. Can anyone give me a link to this info as there’s a heated debate going on here! Thanks.”

    Donald, Kezia Dugdale quoted 13% on Reporting Scotland earlier this week. I’m presuming she had her facts right …. from an Expert … and not wee ‘ah canny use an abacus’ Baillie.

  125. Dr Jim says:

    “The head of the SNP”

    That’s because they don’t believe she represents the “body” politic..head..see what I did there

    If they only knew her full Scottish title which is

    First Minister Nicola Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, Lord Protector of Scotland and Queen north of the wall

  126. One_Scot says:

    Are we there yet.

  127. HandandShrimp says:

    Live near my polling place and there is a steady stream of voters. Turnout looks OK

    In x 4 from the HandandShrimp clan.

  128. Karmanaut says:

    I bought a job lot of these ‘disappearing ink’ pens. You write with them, and then the ink vanishes after about a minute. After that, you need a special light to see the secret message. They’re also known as ‘spy pens’.

    I’ve done a roaring trade with them today outside the polling station. Sold hundreds.

  129. Marie Clark says:

    Here in my wee corner of D&G polling has been pretty steady, which is good.

    Anybody know the answer to what happens to the folks dann sarf whose polling stations had to be closed because of flooding? How to they get to cast their votes now?

    O/T still missing Lesley-Anne from WOS, although I do understand her position after being trolled. Come back soon. Where’s Nana gone, are you well and just having a wee rest from posting just now. Or are you maybe not the Mae West at the moment? Gie’s a wee word to let us know.

  130. Andy B says:

    The undemocratic EU needs to be dismantled entirely and a new structure formed. It’s Politburo cannot be trusted and it is undemocratic to the core. Unelected elites who can pass laws the voting public cannot do anything about nor anything to the people who create said laws. They also overrule and ignore any small countries which disagre with them and their power and empire expanding fantasies. They’ve outrageously trampled Greece into the dirt and repeatedly wiped their arses with the promises of democratic respect for member nations and their wishes when they simply tell people to “vote again” when they vote the “wrong” way.

    To top it all off they are hardcore believers in and enforcers or pushers of the very austerity people here claim they think is monsterous and repeatedly say TORYBAD and LABOURBAD because of the same austerity.

    The insane hypocrisy here from Yessers and Reamain voters is incredible. They will go with any doublethink and blind themselves to any truth to match the indyref urge and whatever they’ve been told is “good” to believe in by their holy icons.

    It’s going to be highly amusing if it is a vote to remain over all as Scotland will gain nothing from it and the Yessers will gain nothing from it. Their victory will be ash in their mouths as in reality they secretly want England to say OUT and Scotland to say IN and the Euro issue is being cynically used and manipulated as a means to that end no matter the damage and consequences in the long term.

  131. sandycraig says:

    Ken @ 3.45

    Yer at it again Ken, making statements about fishing which are not true.

    eg, Russian factory ships got licences to fish the west coast. No they didny. All former Soviet block countries were able to fish outside the UK territorial waters. They had no licences to fish inside.

    All the large factory ships that used to come and lie for months in Shetland waters as well as off Ullapool, were there because they were the customers of the Scottish Pelagic fleet. The UK markets were not big enough to uptake the fish the Scottish fleet caught so the factory ships took a huge percentage of the herring and mackerel. This also benefited the local economy a little bit as these vessels had to be stored and fueled.

    eg, Craig and Wood families made more from oil than fish. Well you are a teeny weeny bit right there. They did, AFTER the oil was discovered. Craigs had a large fleet of successful trawlers for years, long before any oil.

    Similarly the Wood Group. They had various companies, John Wood Shipbuilding, Don Fishing Co, Allan & Dey Fishmerchants, and many others, as well as being trawler owners. This was also long before any oil was discovered.

    Your last point is a strange one to me. “Norway used conservation nets”. Perhaps you can explain that one.

  132. Legerwood says:

    Marie Clark @ 7.56 pm

    Re flooded polling stations. It was mentioned on the news that where polling stations were flooded then alternative premises were being used. Guess they would put someone on the door of the closed polling station to redirect people to the new location.

  133. Andy B says:

    ”If Brexit wins that broken, incompetent, and inadequate Westminster will reign unchallenged and supreme” – Wee Ginger Dug

    Hilariously Wee Ginger Dug has resorted to the “we’re too stupid to rule ourselves and vote for what we need and want, the only solution is to give up independence and be told what to do by people outside our country forever instead” argument, exactly the same came up during the Scottish indy ref and the Yessers used it in favour of leaving a union instead as we can and should rule ourselves. ISNT IT STRANGE HOW THESE ARGUMENTS FLIP FLOP AROUND WHEN IT IS CONVENIENT? One minute people CAN vote for what they want, except when it suits your political and social ideals and then people CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO VOTE AND RUN THEIR OWN LIVES all of a sudden.

    Hypocrites abound in Yes.

  134. HandandShrimp says:

    Hypocrites abound in Yes.

    Andy B

    The Yes campaign was always pro EU from the off. Nothing has changed. The No side used to fall over themselves to tell us the EU wouldn’t have us.

    The number of Better Together types that suddenly favour independence…now there is hypocrisy.

  135. Tinto Chiel says:

    @ Marie Clark 7:56.

    Asked about Nana myself a while ago.

    I think the rheumatism in her fingers was making typing difficult. Don’t know if she’s lurking.

    Miss your links, Nana.

    All the best.

  136. HandandShrimp says:

    The betting seems to have lurched to Remain and the pound is up. There seems to be a fair degree of confidence in a Remain win.

    Will the bookies be cursing the polls tomorrow or will it be the demise of Brexit?

  137. robertknight says:

    @Sandycraig

    “This also benefited the local economy a little bit as these vessels had to be stored and fueled.”

    A “little bit”? I remember the shops at Ullapool whose windows were stuffed full of boxed up T.Vs, radios, kitchen appliances, electric shavers, hair-dryers etc. etc., with a steady stream of RIBs full of Soviet Union chaps with money to burn going to and from the factory ships. “Klondikers” they used to call them, with towns on the west coast and Northern Isles looking more like Seattle’s Pioneer Square at the turn of the last century.

    I wonder how many KGB types back then just wandered ashore and proceeded to vanish into thin air?

  138. Anagach says:

    Andy B
    Trolling like a Boss

    The EU is far more democratic than the UK political system.

  139. galamcennalath says:

    Andy B says:

    “THESE ARGUMENTS FLIP FLOP AROUND ”

    They only appear to flip flop to those who equate leaving the EU to leaving the UK. All the entities have in common is being unions. And their relationships with, and power over Scotland, are totally different.

    It’s about London trying to stop the flow of powers out of their grip. London regaining powers from the EU means nothing to Scotland. We exercise no control over what London then does.

    Powers moving between Brussels and London while Scotland is a bystander.

    Powers moving between Brussels and Scotland, with London completely removed from the equation, that is a debate of relevance.

  140. mike cassidy says:

    Thought I would repeat this link to what a certain group of people in Brussels have had planned for a few days.

    https://archive.is/SpOKE

  141. cearc says:

    All the commuters in the strong SE brexit areas seem to be having problems getting home to vote.

    Worse, the rain is coming from FRANCE!

    The gods (probably that foreign Thor and pals) sure do have a sense of humour.

    hænan.

  142. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    The current “ruling regime”…

    Scots > Scottish Parliament > Westminster > EU Parliament.

    We vote for our independence and get rid of one element.

    Scots > Scottish Parliament > EU Parliament.

    In that scenario, we can have a referendum to get rid of another element – if we vote to get rid.

    Scots > Scottish Parliament.

    You just don’t understand democracy, do you Andy B?

  143. cearc says:

    Where’s Archie(not erchie)?

    He hasn’t been around for a while and usually reports on turnout from his windae hingin’.

    LA’s been twittering a bit again.

  144. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Les Wilson @ 18:33 said:

    If remain wins by a sliver, we can shout gleefully that it was our votes that won it. Good, but just watch how the Brexit media foam at the mouth and will want to punish Scotland for winning the day for remain. […] So we may win it with those dastardly Scottish votes.

    The margin for that to happen is very tight, especially since there are plenty of “Leave” voters up here as well, alas. (Some are even in the SNP, it seems. And not just Sillars in his dotage. So Tartan Tories really exist!) But I live in hope. It would be nice to have the nasty side lose for once.

    To have all those English Brexiteers foaming at the mouth is almost too exquisite a result to contemplate. After they’ve calmed down a bit, though, they’ll be positively encouraging us to have indyref2, and no more lovebombing hypocrisy and asinine promises to treat us better!

    And some more Scottish cringers will finally wake up and realise that their little BritNat “all in it together” heaven is also pure fantasy.

  145. cearc says:

    Where’s Archie(not erchie)?

    He hasn’t been around for a while and usually reports on turnout from his windae hingin’.

    LA’s been twittering a bit again.

    hænan.

  146. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    robertknight @ 20:25 said:

    I remember the shops at Ullapool whose windows were stuffed full of boxed up T.Vs, radios, … etc., with a steady stream of … Soviet Union chaps with money to burn going to and from the factory ships. “Klondikers” they used to call them

    The phenomenon features in the film “Local Hero”. Some of the “Soviet Union chaps” were Latvians, Lithuanians, etc. who are now in the EU themselves and doing well enough from it, thanks, not to have to travel all the way here to buy their consumer goods…

  147. Marie Clark says:

    Legerwood, Tinto Cheil and Cearc, thanks for the info folks.

    Ain’t WOS wonderful, there’s always somebody can give you an answer to your questions. I’m pleased to hear LA is maybe on the comeback trail twittering again.

    Well no long noo tae the polls close it’ll be interesting tae see whit happens when the results start comin in.

    Am away tae watch the Rev’s cats wae brain freeze on twitter again.LOL, pair wee things.

  148. Breeks says:

    You just don’t get it Andy B.

    You’ve fallen for the big con and still don’t even see it.

    Brexit is quite literally a blue on blue Con job. Brexit win = Tory win. Remain win =Tory win. The Tories are playing both hands in a poker game and they still can’t hold a winning hand.

    Neoliberal Conservatism doesn’t work. It never has. From day 1, it has been living beyond its means. It sucked the cash out of UK manufacturing and left that on its knees. It syphoned off Scotland’s oil and squandered it on London and the Home Counties and called it an economic miracle. It sold off the countries assets, Railways, Coal, Gas, Telecom, Post Office and Health Service in all but name, and yet they still couldn’t make neoliberalism pay its way. So they moved into home ownership and turned the country into greedy little property sharks jumping like sticklebacks trying to get a mortgage in a rigged game where the cheapest possible crap was built and punted on the maximum possible purse, manipulated by institutions who set their own rules and values on their own loans. Once they hoovered all the money and value out the nations housing stock and left so much of the deluded population up to their bollocks in debt, it STILL wasn’t enough, and they had to cheat and con the market and horse trade bad debt like a game of pass the parcel. They brought the global economy to its knees, and it still wasn’t enough. They needed the collusion of rotten governments to keep the bonuses coming. They screwed the price of fuel until the country ground to a halt in rebellion, and it still wasn’t enough.

    They have lied, cheated, and committed war crimes to instigate wars and instability to manipulate the trade and prices in weapons and oil, to crush those against them and skim a percentage from the poor compliant sods they polished up and sold to their people as victors, and they still can’t make it pay.

    The financiers of Neoliberalism have wrecked every decent thing they have touched and left the UK with a 3.4 TRILLION deficit which they have no means to repay. Neoliberalism is circling the drain with nothing left to sell off and the bailiffs about to come knocking.

    The Tories don’t give a shit about Europe. All they want rid off is the financial regulation which Europe stands by so the Neoliberal monster can get one last suckle at the dried up nipple once the rules on human decency are set aside and the country has nothing left to give but dry husk.

    And what happens then? The Bullingdon boys and their well healed chums dine out for decades laughing at the gullibility of the millions of brain dead pillocks like you that couldn’t see them for what they were and stood in line to be shat on like all the rest. You live in a wasteland. Not like Mad Max in the movies, but no job. No food on the shelves. No shops on your high street. No dentists. No doctors. Fuel poverty. Food that’s short. Power cuts. Councils that don’t do anything. Broken infrastructure that nobody is fixing. Welcome to the Neoliberal Utopia.

    Scotland is lucky. A fluke of fate has given Scotland a get out of jail free card; a ticket to another destination, and you are so bitter and jealous about it it makes your head spin. Neoliberalism is heading for the buffers and all they want to do is go faster. They don’t see what’s coming because like you, they aren’t even looking.

    Oh yeah, it’s all about Britain. God save the queen. Bully beef. Bloody foreigners. Your country needs you. Yeah, doesn’t it just? … And millions more like you.

  149. Petra says:

    Very much O/T

    @ Dr Jim says at 7:19 pm …. “The head of the SNP” That’s because they don’t believe she represents the “body” politic..head..see what I did there. If they only knew her full Scottish title which is First Minister Nicola Stormborn, Mother of Dragons, Lord Protector of Scotland and Queen North of the Wall.”

    Jim that just got me thinking about our Scottish Queen … Mary Queen of Scots. She was treated like dirt by the English (et al) too. When we get our Independence I would like to see her being disinterred from Westminster Abbey, brought home and laid to rest in her ain land; taking into account that the ”remains of the Kings are no longer outraged, and the churches in Scotland are no longer torn down and profaned.”

    If not Scotland then her last request to Elizabeth 1 should be carried out.

    ”I require you, Madam, for the sake of Jesus, that after my enemies have satisfied their black thirst for my innocent blood, you will permit my poor disconsolate servants to remove my corpse, that it may be buried in holy ground, with my ancestors in France, especially the late Queen my mother, since in Scotland the remains of the Kings my predecessors have been outraged, and the churches torn down and profaned.”

    ……………………………………………..

    “On February 7, 1587, the representatives of the English Queen, reached the Castle of Fotheringay, where the Queen of Scotland was confined at that time, between two and three o’clock in the afternoon. In the presence of her jailer, Paulet, they read their commission regarding the execution of the prisoner, and said that they would proceed with their task the next morning between seven and eight o’clock…….

    She begged the envoys to give her a little time in which to make herself ready, make her will, and place her affairs in order. It was within their power and discretion to grant these requests. The Count of Shrewsbury replied rudely: ‘No, no, Madam you must die, you must die! Be ready between seven and eight in the morning. It cannot be delayed a moment beyond that time.’ “………….

    Mary enters the room designated for her execution and is denied access to her priest …………..

    Standing on the scaffold, she asked for her almoner, (chaplain) begging the officers present to allow him to come. But this was refused point-blank…..

    “… She could not prevent him (the executioner) from touching her, for when her dress was lowered as far as her waist; the scoundrel caught her roughly by the arm and pulled off her doublet. Her skirt was cut so low that her neck and throat, whiter than alabaster, were revealed ….

    She wore a golden crucifix, made out of the wood of the true cross, with a picture of Our Lord on it. She was about to give this to one of her women, but the executioner forbade it …..

    The executioner strove to kill not only her body but also her soul and kept interrupting her prayers…..

    The executioner struck her a great blow upon the neck, which was not, however, entirely severed. Then he struck twice more, since it was obvious that he wished to make the victim’s martyrdom all the more severe. It was not so much the suffering, but the cause, that made the martyr.

    The executioner then picked up the severed head and, showing it to those present, cried out: ‘God save Queen Elizabeth! May all the enemies of the true Evangel thus perish!’

    Saying this, he stripped off the dead Queen’s head-dress, in order to show her hair, which was now white ….

    It was not old age that had turned it white, for she was only thirty-five when this took place, and scarcely forty when she met her death, but the troubles, misfortunes, and sorrows which she had suffered, especially in her prison.”

    http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/maryqueenofscots.htm

    Her last letter:

    http://digital.nls.uk/mqs/trans1.html

  150. Ken500 says:

    Latvians, Lithuanians etc are at Peterhead working in the fishing industry.

    Under EU rules each Port has exclusive 100 mile? Limit.

  151. Glamaig says:

    The pound has been rising since about 7:45 so those secret exit polls must be showing a Remain result.

    Turnout about 50-60% here and at the gates I was getting a 2:1 for Remain sort of feeling 🙂

  152. Macart says:

    @Tinto Chiel

    Not heard from Nana in a while myself.

    If you’re reading Nana, be well. 🙂

  153. Balaaargh says:

    Clerks at my local polling station were asking that you showed them the barcode on your folded vote before posting it.

  154. Robert Peffers says:

    O/T. I thought I’d just slip this one in while we are all awaiting the results to start rolling in. It was engendered by the Media’s claims of, Nicola Sturgeon being, “the head of the SNP”. today”.

    There are lots of daft ideas about the constitution of the SNP but the main one is that such as Nicola Sturgeon and the party hierarchy are the ones who form the party policies. They don’t.

    Every constituency in Scotland has a Constituency Association that is composed of every local branch within that constituency. Party Policy is decided by the delegates sent to SNP Annual Conference from each of those branches in each Constituency Association and the party is funded by the membership and by donations.

    Here is a link to a pdf document of the Party’s constitution. It may open a lot of eyes :-

    http://104.46.54.198/sites/default/files/assets/documents/constitutionofthescottishnationalparty.pdf

  155. DerekM says:

    @ Andy B says

    The undemocratic UK needs to be dismantled entirely and a new structure formed. It’s Politburo cannot be trusted and it is undemocratic to the core. Unelected elites who can pass laws the voting public cannot do anything about nor anything to the people who create said laws.

    See what i did there Andy.

    Great article Scott though i would hope that if it is a brexit we are a bit more ambitious than waiting for westminster handouts that will never come but it is true we would get these powers back what we can do with them would be a different story.

  156. Lollysmum says:

    About to start on Independence Live

    http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/EUref

  157. Connor McEwen says:

    Jist sayin Petra,ken500,especially Breeks huv got their belt and braces submissions in to press for Indy.
    Some should be carved in stone on Mount Sinai or sumfin.

    Rab Peffers ponts of law tae, though can be obsessive pedantic.

  158. Robert Peffers says:

    @Andy B says: 23 June, 2016 at 8:05 pm:

    ” … Hypocrites abound in Yes.”

    I’ve rarely seen such an example of illogical logic as this gem from, “Andy B”.

    Well not since an instructor we had on a course on electronics told the class an EHT, (Extra High Tension), circuit of a RADAR picket Frigate’s RADAR system was very dangerous. One of the class innocently asked, “Which is the EHT module, Sir”. The instructor pointed to it with his bare finger.

    He flew across the room, slid down the wall to lie on the floor. He survived as there was indeed a very high voltage but very small current. It did, though, jump quite a distance to that outstretched finger. The resultant arc burnt a wee hole through the skin of his index finger.

    The moral, Andy B, is to consider exactly what you say on Wings or you may get your fingers burnt.

  159. Rock says:

    Remain wins.

    Davidson claims the credit.

    Galloway changes sides on principle.

    Johnson and Farage go underground and launch the People’s Front for the Liberation of England.

    Scotland loves the spectacle.

  160. Rock says:

    Or

    Brexit wins.

    Davidson blames the SNP.

    Warsi changes sides on principle.

    Cameron, the Establishment and Big Business secretly vow to undermine newly independent England.

    Drawing Great Britain’s tons of experience in undermining the newly independent colonies and other countries worldwide.

    Scotland loves the spectacle.

  161. frogesque says:

    All over bar the counting. Let the battle commence.

    AND . . . in the blue corner we haavvve . . . The Toxic Tories.

    AND in the purple corner we haaavveee . . . The Even More Toxic Tories!!!

    No biting, gouging, back stabbing or pistols at dawn. Make it a good clean fight and may the bodies lie thick on the carpet!!

    Night all folks, 6 episodes of Outlander 2 to get through before Monday. No poly ticks, no footie . . . bliss!

  162. HandandShrimp says:

    It is over

    thank feck!

    Remain or Brexit what I want to see now is some internecine Tory warfare.

    🙂

  163. robertknight says:

    @Robert Suds

    “Some of the “Soviet Union chaps” were Latvians, Lithuanians, etc.”

    Which is why I said “Soviet Union” and not Russian.

    I just realised I could be shortly to leave the EU against my will, and not even know it yet..

  164. DerekM says:

    Ha that will be interesting to see Rock if it is a remain will the yoons on reporting shortbread back the red tories win or the blue tories,will the big burd and her gremlins screech blue tory win it was ruth that done it and will the daily retard run with crackpot crash broon savoir of the universe.

    Bet they both do a SNPbad though lol

  165. One_Scot says:

    I can’t remember the last time I did not stay up all night for an election or a referendum. I will do tomorrow.

  166. K1 says:

    Last polls are tight 52% Remain 48% Brexit

  167. Petra says:

    @ Tinto Chiel says at 8:10 pm …. ”Asked about Nana myself a while ago. I think the rheumatism in her fingers was making typing difficult. Don’t know if she’s lurking. Miss your links, Nana. All the best.”

    I read somewhere that Nana had surgery carried out on her hand with the possibility of having surgery carried out on her other hand. Apologies Nana if I’ve got this wrong. I fairly miss her posts, I’m sure she checks in every day and wishes someone would go searching for the news here and abroad as she did. Anyway Nana I wish you a full and speedy recovery.

    ……………………………………….

    @ Yesindyref2 says at 9:35 pm …. ”Petra …. One for you.”

    Lovely Yesindyref2. Thanks for that.

    …………………………………………

    Well just after 10pm now. Anybody heard who’s going to win this Referendum? Anyone heard from Ruth Davidson yet?

  168. K1 says:

    It’s not started yet but here’s the link to Independence Live who will be live from the Emirates in Glasgow:

    http://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/EUref

  169. HandandShrimp says:

    Farage has conceded defeat according to some (no idea if this is true)

  170. K1 says:

    As Rev is pointing out on twitter that yougov poll is squarely within the ‘area’ of Scotland keeping England in…ooh…exciting/scary all at once.

  171. Brian McHugh says:

    That will be mighty close to the Scottish vote being the ‘Remain’ clincher K1.

    Away for 3 of 4 hours Zeds now. I’ll take a gander at 3/4am to see how it is shaping up.

  172. K1 says:

    HandS, from the Guardian:

    ‘As the polls closed, the Ukip leader, Nigel Farage, was reported to have said it looks like “remain will edge it”. According to Sky News, he said: “It’s been an extraordinary referendum campaign, turnout looks to be exceptionally high and looks like remain will edge it. Ukip and I are going nowhere and the party will only continue to grow stronger in the future.”

  173. Capella says:

    Havering in Essex is havering. Romford wants OUT. Good start. But it supposed to be the most Eurosceptic so may not be typical.

  174. Les Wilson says:

    I came across this quote by Stalin, says it all really.

    “Comrades, you know,” said Stalin, “I think that it’s totally irrelevant who votes, and how they vote. It’s extremely important who counts the votes, and how they’re counted.”

  175. K1 says:

    We really could be keeping England in, it’s between 51% to 52%…

    This from the same article in the Guardian:

    ‘YouGov said it expected the UK to vote to remain in the EU on the basis of returning to voters who had been surveyed a day earlier. It showed a shift towards an in vote, with the numbers moving from 51% for remain to 52%.’

  176. call me dave says:

    @HandandShrimp

    Aye! “Remain to edge it” says Farage: BBC claim.

    Two polls out 52% Remain 48% Leave U-Gov
    52% Leave 48% Remain (Didn’t catch name)
    Prof Curtis: Expert on Auntie.

  177. Robert Peffers says:

    @Anagach says: 23 June, 2016 at 8:26 pm :

    ” … The EU is far more democratic than the UK political system”.

    Indeed so, Anagach.

    However, judging by the number of numpties, like Andy B, who have constantly spouted idiotic, (would be), scare stories through the years it seems they don’t know the difference between an EU member and an EC member.

    EC is the European Commission and the clue is in the word, “Commissioner”, it signifies that the Commissioner is a paid for employee of the EU, (European Union).

    That is they are paid for Civil Servants who cannot, and do not, make any decisions or laws whatsoever. They administer the decisions of the European Union Parliament.

    Which parliament is composed of MSPs from every member state in the European Union and their decisions are thus the democratic decision of a majority of the EU MSPs.

  178. Meindevon says:

    Just seen that Boris Johnston was attending his daughter’s graduation today…at St Andrews uni. Really? The man that thought tax payers money spent on Scotland was a waste has spent his own personal money in Scotland. Too wee, too stupid and too poor to self govern but perfectly capable of educating his precious offspring.

    Unbelievable.

  179. HandandShrimp says:

    I liked the comment that the Scottish economy would be in chaos tomorrow if we have secured an In vote for the UK….

    How can a country work when it spends all day pishing itself laughing

  180. Gary45% says:

    Take back control, if you repeat it enough (not that anyone would!!!)it comes across like Engerland, Engerland, Engerland, hopefully we won’t hear them singing it when they play Farm Foods in the next round of Euro 2016.
    Its been a strange day, knowing I may have helped put a smile on the faces of the Bastards who lied at Indy Ref.

  181. Robert Graham says:

    Goldman Sachs just called it for remain , heavy trading expected just after midnight when Japanese stock market opens , pound /Dollar reaches 1-52 highest this year Pound strongest for thirty years , all this forty minutes after polling closes f/n quick counters eh aye right ,EU now preparing to divulge all new dictats that have been held back for the last three months happy you voted stay now ? .

  182. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh my goodness, I feel really really sorry for Ruth Davidson.

  183. Petra says:

    @ Connor McEwen says at 9:56 pm …. ”Jist sayin Petra, ken500, especially Breeks huv got their belt and braces submissions in to press for Indy. Some should be carved in stone on Mount Sinai or sumfin. Rab Peffers ponts of law tae, though can be obsessive pedantic.”

    Connor when we get our Independence I expect the Donald Dewar monument to be hauled down and a monument of myself put in its place (without the road cone on napper). If not ME, mhhh, grrr, then maybe that wee, eh, whit’s her name .. Nicola .. I hear so much about.

    ……………………………..

    @ mike cassidy says at 8:42 pm …. ”Thought I would repeat this link to what a certain group of people in Brussels have had planned for a few days.”

    https://archive.is/SpOKE

    Some good choices there Mike. What about this one?

    Brexit win: Last of the immigrants leaving London.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CcvsktHOPY

  184. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m going to predict 58% Remain, 41.9% Leave and 0.1% cock-ups

  185. Macart says:

    I’m running out of munchies. 😮

  186. Titler says:

    BBC reading out early headlines, all of them are suggesting it’s a Remain win with high turn out. I hope so, I really do.

    The talk of the Tories quickly falling in line again (where as the Left falls in love etc) is interesting. It remains to be seen if they are doing so to take advantage of any England/Scotland vote difference, or it’s just positioning to keep their place within the Tory party post-loss…

  187. Inverclyder says:

    Somebody phone the polis and an ambulance.

    There’s a car crash of comments from Coburn on STV.

    Bernard swatting flies again.

  188. Well, the counting has begun.

    And since there has been some apparent misunderstanding on that subject, some background info that may be of some interest.

    If you watch the coverage of the count on livestream, etc. you will see campaign workers with clipboards looking over the tellers as the ballot boxes are unloaded and the papers counted. (The tellers do that first to check the number of ballots are as expected before they go on in a second phase to count the actual votes themselves.) These observers only catch a glimpse of some of the ballot papers, but enough to get an early idea of how the votes are going. It’s a kind of informal poll of the actual votes themselves. And it turns out to be quite an accurate indication. So those in the know – including the media present – have a fairly good notion of how things are shaping up long before the result is announced. The broadcast media and the parties generally stay very mute about it even during the count, with just the odd hint as the evening progresses.

    But here’s the thing. The exact same process happens with the postal ballots, the only difference being that they are opened, checked for validity, and tallied over several days in advance of the count. Tallied only, the votes themselves only being counted later along with all the rest. (It’s done this way because the process of verification is non-trivial, and is way too much for all that to be done solely on the night itself.) So the parties all have a fairly good idea of how the postal votes are shaping up well before the count itself has even taken place.

    This is the source eg. of Ruthie’s alleged indiscretion in the indyref. It’s not about some kind of inappropriate access to all the postal votes. It’s about what is said about what is legitimately observed. According to law there must be absolute omerta about how votes are going before the poll has concluded, for obvious reasons. That is the issue there.

  189. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    yesindyref2 said

    I’m going to predict … 0.1% cock-ups

    Like the ref’s last outing, d’ye mean? =grin=

  190. Big Jock says:

    Some tactical leave voting in Scotland by some SNP members. I know a few!

  191. Titler says:

    Newcastle and Sunderland both reporting lower support for Remain than predicted… oh god, Iain Duncan Smith on BBC getting excited, is there anything more disgusting?

  192. David says:

    Great post by Breeks at 9:18pm !
    🙂

  193. schrodingers cat says:

    perfect storm brewing…. run on £

    pensioners in meltdown, no voting areas in scotland, orkney and clach show 68% remain

    im less confident of a remain win in england

    party time, bring on yes2 🙂

  194. Macart says:

    Pound now crashed to Black Wednesday levels and Remain in Scotland on 67.7%.

    Not looking great for remain UK wide though.

  195. Macart says:

    According to Mr Salmond, every single Scottish ward returning a remain vote. His own overall percentage prediction for Scotland is 64% remain.

    ITV is calling it for Brexit.

  196. Macart says:

    Whooft!

    Pound fallen off a cliff. Drop of 9% and possibility of falling further.

  197. K1 says:

    Macart come on to the main thread…that’s were all the chatting is going on… 😉



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