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Wings Over Scotland


Not even trying any more

Posted on March 31, 2014 by

113 to “Not even trying any more”

  1. Maggie Craig says:

    I agree, this one’s a cracker!

  2. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    Former Deputy and then Chancellor of The Exchequer?

    Says it all.

    Taxi for Darling!

  3. Nick says:

    Clueless! He is supplying ‘quotable quotes for Independence’ for us to laugh over for years to come!

  4. Ian Brotherhood says:

    He’s just making it up as he goes along.

  5. Illy says:

    ‘sharing sovereignty in the same way as you do when join the euro’

    He’s not talking to Scotland anymore, he’s talking to UKIP.

    Remember, if they realise that they’ve lost the referendum (which they probably do, if only in private), they’ll be jockying for the best situation for themselves in the 2015 elections.

    Which possibly means pandering to UKIP for those all-important South-East and London constituancies.

  6. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    We need to keep this man at the helm of the Better Together Campaign.

    What an asset!

    Please do not slag him off too much or he may get fired by his masters in the Tory party.

  7. Grouse Beater says:

    And another thing…!

    Cyprus is a divided country.

  8. Jiggsbro says:

    I guess he’d point to Greece and say the Euro isn’t working.

  9. Jamie Arriere says:

    You don’t need a single government, Darling you moron – only a coordinated and agreed fiscal & borrowing strategy defined by the central bank, which governments commit to and stick to.

    The ECB can manage it with 17 or 18, surely the BoE can manage with 2?

    Or is it the sticking to borrowing limits that Darling finds impossible?

  10. philbers says:

    O/T but this is an interesting film about how a government lies and then lies again. Its about the Chagos Islanders and what Westminster has done to them. Just thought some of you might be interested 😀

  11. kendomacaroonbar says:

    and this was how the term ‘Darling Balls’ came into existence ( hat tip to Mr Coleman )

  12. Arbroath 1320 says:

    But, but, but I’m sure he said somewhere in the dim and distant past that a Currency Union would make sense! Now he says it can only happen if we, in effect, remain part of current set up. I’m confused! *very sore head* 😛

  13. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Sounding more desperate by the day, which is good. Take your point about the MSM not picking it up. Also can’t remember any member of the MSM asking him why he thought a CU last year was a good deal for Scotland and the rUk.

  14. MochaChoca says:

    Och jings… does this mean a currency zone isn’t logical and desirable any more?

  15. Bonnie Lassie says:

    This is desperate stuff. Luxembourg and Belgium had a currency union for decades (since the 1920s) and had different income tax, CT rates etc etc. I can’t believe this man was allowed to be our chancellor! Shows his ignorance in true form now – no wonder he couldn’t control the banking system – he has no idea of the most basic elements relating to currency. What I’d like to know is why on earth is he not being severely challenged on this.

  16. Paul Kelly says:

    Probably broke the blinking sound barrier while trotting out that line!

  17. Jimbo says:

    Some-one should tell Darling about the countries that use the Euro but are not in the EU – and the countries that use the US Dollar but are not part of the USA.

  18. Gillie says:

    As the unionists look at the carnage that the Darling plan has done to the NO Campaign do you think that even they will be saying, “Will this man please shut the f**k up”

    I think Gordon Brown will be the only one chuckling to himself at Darling’s gross incompetence.

  19. panda paws says:

    Great minds, I was going to post that same thought on Cif! But there have been so many Scotland stories this weekend filled with unionists telling us “it’s pound, not yours” I lost the will to post.

  20. desimond says:

    @Bonnie Lassie

    How many Chancellors are qualified for such a role, being able to fill in an expense form seems to be the only qualification needed these days?

    Lets not forget the most worrying line in Darlings statement..he says he “will be back in Scotland” by the time any Currency Union talk comes around.

    Are we talking the new Labour Leader at Holyrood?

  21. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Bugger (the Panda) says:
    Taxi for Darling!

    I’d say he is sore need of a subway sandwich, ahead of Mr Gray & Ms Lamont in the queue.

    Must be tiring all of those after dinner speeches.

  22. frankieboy says:

    I heard him this morning repeat this on Radio 4 with his compatriot James Naughtie feeding him his lines. He sounded unwell. I am concerned about his blood pressure.

  23. Flower of Scotland says:

    Darling doesn’t sound very well! Do you think he is maybe looking into the future now and it’s not the same one as he envisaged a few weeks ago! No TROUGH and NO GRAVY TRAIN!

    Hope it’s not too early to go O/t

    After alexicons comment this morning I went onto Facebook and Barrheads Manager is TOAST! They have had lots of posts declaring that they won’t do business with a bully! There was a really good photo of the letter that the staff were sent. It had been amended with lots of corrections in red! I photographed it and put it on my Facebook page and friends and family have shared it! It’s gone viral! I would put up a link (I did try) but don’t know how to .

  24. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    @
    desimond says:

    Rats are supposed to leave the ship, not prepare a berth on a passing one.

    He has nowhere else to go. Wee shame.

    BtP

  25. Dcanmore says:

    Is Alistair Darling now anti-Europe, is he coming out for UKIP these days? Or is it just say anything… ANYTHING, to stop the rise of the YES vote. Probably. Doesn’t Ali D look increasingly isolated these days perhaps we should just call him Patsy from now on. Patsy Darling sounds about right 🙂

  26. FlimFlamMan says:

    Darling is clearly wrong about the structures of the Eurozone.

    But…

    If we’re talking about a genuine currency union, not just in name, then to function properly it does require a single government, at least in terms of a single fiscal authority to match the single monetary authority. That combination of fiscal and monetary authority ought really to be subject to combined political control and accountability. That all sounds like a single nation with a single government

    The lack of that fiscal authority, that single government, is why the Euro is such a disaster for those nations within it that run large external deficits. Without combined fiscal operations the peripheral economies have collapsed into entrenched contraction and depression. 26% unemployment in Spain, which was actually running government surpluses before the crash; the supposed ‘fiscally prudent’ position. 28% unemployment in Greece. Even now, years after the crash. These people are suffering in ways that are almost unimaginable for advanced European nations.

  27. jake says:

    I think he’s flipped.

  28. Drew says:

    There are lies, damned lies then Alistair Darling

  29. Bugger (the Panda) says:

    This is true

    My erstwhile brother-in-law used to work for HM Treasury, honestly!

    During his time they did not do double entry book keeping and nor did the B of E.

    Before that, and not so very long ago, they had no qualified economist or accountant on the payroll.

    They didn’t need to, all they had to deal with was Darling, and his predecessors.

    I was told that before that

  30. kendomacaroonbar says:

    @ Jake

    Absolutely Brilliant LOL !!

  31. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Drew says:

    There are lies, damned lies then Alistair Darling

    New joke alert.

    How do you your Darling is lying? His eyebrows are moving.

  32. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Sorry, for the outbreak of FFS (fat finger syndrome)

    “know you Darling is Lying”

  33. GrahamB says:

    Desimond:
    Please, please can he replace Stairheid, then Labour in Scotland would finally implode.

  34. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Thomas William Dunlop says:

    #”!&%@!* spellchecker!

  35. annie says:

    Is Flim Flam not an expression for bullshit (for want of a better word)

  36. manandboy says:

    Reminds me of that scene in “Titanic” when the Captain insists that the ship is unsinkable and is corrected by the Titanic’s designer.
    In that moment, the truth is revealed. ‘Captain’ Darling has realised the good ship United Kingdom is going down. Cue panic and general chaos.
    Watch out for deteriorating body language in Capt. Darling as he struggles to cope with his ‘sinking’ feeling.

  37. manandboy says:

    I had this thought earlier today.
    Delicious irony – Cameron, Osborne,IDS and the rest, who are soon to lose their Benefits from north of the border.

  38. Robert Kerr says:

    I didn’t know stand up comedians got payed so well.

    Quarter a million quid.

    What’s to laugh at?

  39. FlimFlamMan says:

    annie

    Is Flim Flam not an expression for bullshit

    It is; it’s supposed to be ironic, or something.

  40. Desimond says:

    @BTP

    I think it would be more ‘we shame’ if Darling ever got another penny let alone a position of Authority in a YES voting Scotland.

    @GrahamB
    Its setting itself up for quite an Arm Wrestling contest..the sleakit Darling, the toothless pitbull JoLa, the snakelike Murphy all eyeing the prize. We could sell tikets, or sellout tickets more like for that mob!

  41. No No No...Yes says:

    Just in case fellow readers are not aware, Alistair Darling is available for hire;

    http://www.speakersassociates.com/Alistair-Darling.aspx?ppctraffic=true&gclid=CLj_ssOAvb0CFRDItAodbhoADw

    Nice to see the matching bow tie and eyebrows.

    Interestingly his Biography section has this:

    “Alistair Darling is a highly effective and deeply respected politician who has also held a range of important cabinet positions under Tony Blair’s government, including Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Social Security and Transport. He advocates major spending projects to revitalize the economy and is in charge of the campaign to keep Scotland in the UK, with a referendum due in October 2014.”

    Highly effective?
    Deeply respected?
    Important positions?

    He IS IN CHARGE of the No Campaign!!!

    Does he know something about the date of the referendum that we don’t…?

  42. Stuart G says:

    Hi All, Ronnie Anderson is having a spot of computer problems and has asked me to post up that he’s missing you all and will be back on again soon.

  43. Desimond says:

    @No No No…Yes

    So what exactly does Blair MacDougall do then if Ally Dally is calling all the shots?

  44. CameronB says:

    If we’re laying in to Alistair Darling, the two most repugnant of his political positions are;

    1. He is a strong supporter of Trident and its replacement.

    2. He strongly opposed an investigation in to the Iraq invasion.

    He is British Labout through and through. A corporate colonialist English Socialist. He has no claim to being a March Violet.

  45. CameronB says:

    Robert Kerr
    I hope you take this as the friendly and constructive comment that it is.

    As a designer, I think you do yourself no favours with your avitar. What sort of impression do you think it gives?

  46. Iain says:

    To me this is up there with Rennie and Carmichael carping on about a reason for voting No being the the UK offers a single market. I presume the intention is to suggest that we would not have said single market in the event of a YES vote. Interesting that such a pro-European party fails to see the problem with this being that we are already part of an EU single market and shall continue to be so.

  47. Triangular Ears says:

    Hey, don’t forget the Scottish Government!

    We have (at least) two governments in our beloved UK operating in a currency union at this very moment.

  48. chalks says:

    So BT’s tactics still haven’t changed in spite of the Guardian story.

    Still concentrating on the worried Don’t Knows….little do they realise that they are losing No voters….

  49. Andy-B says:

    Not only that but Belgium and Luxembourg, shared a currency for 60 years, but poor old Alistair Darling just can’t help himself.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium%E2%80%93Luxembourg_Economic_Union

    O/T I do apologise.

    Torchuil Crichton in his column in the Daily Record, another London propaganda rag, who’ve put their price up today,has come out and said that Alex Salmond WILL let Westminster keep Trident in Scotland.

    I can’t find Crichton’s lying dross,in the online version, but then again does anyone really take this chinless wonder for real anymore, I very much doubt it.

  50. Doug Daniel says:

    Yeah but Stu, did you not know the Euro has collapsed? That’s why I wasn’t able to get any when I went to get Euros before my Berlin holiday a few weeks ago.

    Oh no, wait a minute, the other thing – the Euro is still fine and there’s no more of a prospect of a single European government than there was before the financial crisis.

  51. Robert Louis says:

    Darling is sounding sillier with each passing day. The man has sold his credibility for the tissue of lies called ‘better together’. Not to be taken seriously, IMHO.

  52. Gwyn says:

    The Uk is already a Currency Union (and that’s excluding Scotland and Wales).

    The Channel Islands, Isle of Mann and Gibralter already share the £ and they have completly different Tax arrangements (Tax Havens even!) and they are consulted on Economic matters by Westminster.

    Isn’t that almost exactly what is being proposed for an Independent Scotland?

  53. Will Podmore says:

    Jiggsbro writes, “I guess he’d point to Greece and say the Euro isn’t working.” Well, yes, that’s surely true, isn’t it? The euro is wrecking Greece – or does anyone think that euro membership has been good for Greece? It puzzles me why the SNP is so supportive of the euro. Can anyone please explain?

  54. CameronB says:

    a single European government
    Hi Doug. I think we should all be careful of rationalising concepts through our understanding of average life spans. Power block can come together quickly or over many generations.

    Top result for: “Pulling and Sharing” Whoooooooo 😉

    https://www.eda.europa.eu/aboutus/whatwedo/pooling-and-sharing

  55. Seasick Dave says:

    Another sign that Scotland is a basket case…

    An Australian firm which services the energy, chemical and mining sectors is to open a base in Scotland, creating 110 new jobs.

    Clough’s new office at Bellshill, North Lanarkshire, is part of the company’s expansion plan to target work in Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-26818852

  56. Jamie Arriere says:

    I’m sure after independence, that there will be a Joint Ministerial Council between the rUK and Scotland which will discuss matters of common interest – and a Fiscal Authority could be set up reporting to this JMC, staffed north & south of the border, to monitor conformance issue guidance & direction etc

    Is it really that hard to envisage?

  57. Desimond says:

    Finally some good news for the NO Campaign.
    More time to drown their sorrows!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26821767

  58. HandandShrimp says:

    I really don’t know what to make of Darling on this subject any more. He seems incredibly grumpy but at the same time he seems to put little effort into his arguments. Has he actually conducted any town hall meetings or participated in any debates? Nicola regularly appears in public and engages in questions and answers in open meetings and has taken part in four televised debates.

    Darling just seems to do furious eyebrow waggling interviews with moderately friendly BBC peeps. I’m not sure Better Together are getting much value but I’m not complaining either.

  59. Clarinda says:

    Blatherskite – a noisy talker of blatant rubbish.

    Sounds about right for a number of today’s targets brought to book by the redoubtable Rev. S Campbell.

  60. Big Jock says:

    I wonder at the level of knowledge at BBC Scotland. When Salmond offered Belgium and Luxembourg sharing a currency for 70 years pre Euro.(Gary Robertson) His retort was: ” But that eventually led to a political union! Luxembourg was never in any union with Belguim!

    After the Eighty Years’ War, Luxembourg became a part of the Southern Netherlands, which would pass to the Austrian line of the Habsburg dynasty in 1713. After occupation by Revolutionary France, the 1815 Treaty of Paris transformed Luxembourg into a Grand Duchy in personal union with the Netherlands. The treaty also partitioned Luxembourg, which had been done in 1659 and would be done again in 1839. Although these treaties greatly reduced Luxembourg’s territory, they increased Luxembourg’s independence, which was confirmed after the Luxembourg Crisis in 1867.

  61. Desimond says:

    O/T

    The French Prime Minister has resigned. Alastair Darling blames Alex Salmond and cites this as a clear indicator on how currency unions are bad!

  62. Mosstrooper says:

    @Will Podmore

    Rather than ask if the Euro was bad for Greece surely better to ask what damage Greece did to the Euro.

  63. CameronB says:

    HandandShrimp
    I would occasionally bump in to him outside British Labour (Edinburgh branch office), and he simply couldn’t handle me. It was hilarious to watch this senior Minister flush under pressure. He did usually some the curtsy to stop when approached, but boy, he couldn’t get away fast enough. Tee hee. 🙂

  64. HandandShrimp says:

    Will

    Greece itself was desperate to join the Euro and fudged the figures somewhat on matching the criteria on fiscal deficit and inflation. Joining the Euro constrained their ability to change interest rates and money supply whereas before they could have devalued the drachma as part of their strategy to cope with debt. The Euro actually strengthened as the pound and the dollar QE’d like there was no tomorrow tighening the squeeze on the weaker economies with debt. Some of the smaller economies like Latvia, Estonia etc. steered clear of incurring a lot of debt.

    It might sound harsh but Greece and Portugal have to shoulder a fair bit of the responsibility for recent events.

  65. Mosstrooper says:

    Hollande has resigned.

    Job for Barosso, the well known smart arse.

  66. bald eagle says:

    talk about putting his foot in his mouth

    the man is a bloody octopus

  67. scottish_skier says:

    Why don’t Greeks want out of the terrible Euro currency union? Odd that at the height of the Greece crisis, poll after poll showed they wanted to keep the Euro. Maybe it’s because the Euro wasn’t the problem at all? Ah yes, that’s it. The Euro wasn’t the problem at all.

    Opinion polls show that 70% of Greeks want to remain part of the eurozone.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/may/13/greece-must-stay-eurozone

    Seventy-eight percent of the 1,007 Greeks surveyed for the To Vima newspaper supported keeping the country in the currency union

    http://www.newsmax.com/Economy/Greek-Opinion-Poll-euro/2012/05/13/id/438880/

  68. CameronB says:

    HandandShrimp
    Who fudged the figures for them and what role do they play in setting Indexes? Anyone?

  69. Alabaman says:

    In a hurry, so did not have time to read all the postings Rev, so I do not know if this has been covered.
    Why don’t you make a poster out of your header, and get it on the “clockwork orange” again !!!,or on a mobile poster and park it outside Glasgow’s underground station exits ect.

  70. jingly jangly says:

    Will Podmore “It puzzles me why the SNP is so supportive of the euro. Can anyone please explain?”

    Eh? The Snp is not supportive of the Euro, otherwise it would be planning to join the Euro!!!

    BTW the Euro is not as bad as the Unionists paint it, I used to go to Europe regularly, now its too expensive as the UK pound has dropped in value against the Euro by about 30/40%.

  71. murren59 says:

    philbers, thank you for sharing that heart breaking video report about the Chagos Islanders. Absolutely shocking to see good old fair play British justice in action.

  72. Greannach says:

    Flipper gives the impression he just doesn’t care any more, can’t be bothered, going through the motions. How he must be longing for September so he can sell the house(s) in Scotland, move home to London, get kicked upstairs to the Lords and join the Blair After-dinner Speech Club. It looks like he might not have to wait till September, though.

  73. Boorach says:

    Completely o/t but today’s good news is that Lady is back, once more, at Loch of the Lowes. 🙂 🙂

  74. Capella says:

    Re Greeks. Apparently, when the Colonels left power they wrote into the constitution that anyone connected with shipping is exempt from tax. So anyone with money doesn’t pay tax – dentists, bankers, etc are all somehow connected to the shipping industry. This is probably what Christine Lagarde meant when she commented that the Greeks should pay their taxes.

  75. Donzo says:

    Actually, that’s not quite true is it? That’s just a YES view again. The examples you give are Euro members who share a democratic mandate and representation at the ECB even if smaller countries like Cyprus are really told what to do I would guess!. If we leave the UK and have a currency union, the Treasury and BoE will wish a significant degree of fiscal control over Scotland (tax and spend) – without us having ANY democratic representation in that process. An informal union “like Panama” hardly sounds a good way to run a country either. Do you really think come 19/09 if we vote yes and haven’t resolved the question that the main clearing banks will continue to extend £UK loans to Scottish customers – I would expect a temporary suspension from market lending pending crisis resolution – at which point the UK will say we keep Faslane and get to control Sterling – the banking sector remains UK regulated and you can have the “sterlingzone” – a high price for independence – no fiscal autonomy and still got the subs on the Clyde.
    Why bother voting!?

  76. CameronB says:

    Doug Daniel
    How many dimensions are there? Remember to include time as one of them. 🙂

  77. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Do you really think come 19/09 if we vote yes and haven’t resolved the question that the main clearing banks will continue to extend £UK loans to Scottish customers”

    Yes. Scotland will still be part of the UK until 2016.

  78. Fiona says:

    If we leave the UK and have a currency union,

    Then we will be in the same position wrt to representation at the central bank as do the european members: but we will be in a better position because the BoE behaves as a central bank and the ECB does not.

    If we “sterlingise” (which is what your reference to Panama means) then you are correct about no representation.

    They are two different things

    I haven’t a clue what leads you to the position outlined in the rest of your post.

  79. tartanfever says:

    Donzo says:

    ‘the Treasury and BoE will wish a significant degree of fiscal control over Scotland (tax and spend) – without us having ANY democratic representation in that process’

    Can you point me to a treasury announcement that says any of this ? As far as I’m aware, the only treasury announcement has been Sir N. MacPherson’s pretty disastrous intervention which says no to currency union. Osbourne, Alexander and co have also said No to the currency union.

    Are you admitting that unionists are accepting a currency union then with your statement ?

    As far as the BoE are concerned, Mark Carney has said they will work with whatever happens – which seems pretty far off the definitive statements you have made here.

  80. CameronB says:

    Have we done with Flipper, is he toast?

    Has anyone picked up on what I have been saying about the significance of the RTPI to the Union? Does anyone have any comment?

  81. Bob costello says:

    1. On Newsnight Scotland last night (10 January) Alistair Darling said: “Of course – of course it would be desirable to have a currency union . . . If you have independence or separation, of course the currency union is logical”.
    This is what his confused man said last year , so what has happened to his “logic”

  82. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Donzo

    We enter a currency union with representation on the board (which presently we have none of) and we hold all the aces.

    Stability is essential as we negotiate our independence conditions and in the immediate term there is no benefit to Scotland whatsover on seriously damaging the economy of our nearest neighbour and biggest customer.

    The offer made by the Scottish Government was a very generous one and the incompetence of a stupid Better Together campaign is giving us massive benefit on this issue

  83. heraldnomore says:

    Meanwhile, and apologies if it’s been mentioned elsewhere but I’ve some reading to catch up on, Michael McCann MP has finally replied to last week’s questions. But don’t hold your breath, it’s simply a copy and paste of that from Tom Harris.

  84. Retro_Rabbit says:

    So… that explains why the economy fell apart, during his watch… his predecessor done a thatcher n sold all our gold and he has no clue how a monetary system or a financial union of various countries work… or how a single government is defined.

    How do they manage to use the GBP in the Isle of Man or Jersey with their own governments and taxation systems..? (In the Isle of Man’s case with, no deposit of cash in the bank of England’s vault unlike Scotland and NI).

    I figured out what Alistair Darling is gonna do after he’s ousted from Westminster, he’s not going to be doing the after dinner speaking circuit, teaching bankers how to destroy an economy, he’s gonna be advertising for Kellog’s Rice Crispie Squares… “It’s all lies!”

  85. Muscleguy says:

    @Will Podmore

    Greece is in trouble because:

    1. It cooked the books wrt debt really, really significantly when entering the Euro and this came back to bite them.

    2. The rates of tax collection in Greece are appalling. So the government income is way below most European states.

    3. It had ridiculously generous civil servant employment terms with unsustainably early retirement in a time of extending lifespans.

    4. It took the low rates of interest it paid before the Credit Crunch as a reason to just borrow money instead of fix their economy so it was more like that of other states in the Euro.

    5. Joining the Euro made tourism to Greece much more expensive so their main income earner declined and they didn’t do anything about this.

    The medicine has been harsh and as usual comes down hardest on those least responsible for the mess, hence the unrest. You can hardly say Britain has been untouched in those areas mind so membership of the Euro is not necessary for them.

  86. Daniel Watson says:

    Someone should ask flipper what’s in it for him?
    What has he been promised if he brings in a No vote, made a European Commisioner perhaps, he does not strike me as a guy that does something for nothing.

  87. Croompenstein says:

    Flipper is on Scotland Tonight should be interseting, wonder if Rona will tear into him or she might be afraid of tipping him over the edge..Did he refer to Nicola as Sturgeon? I know he is disrespectful to FM by referring to him as Salmond but is he just disrespecting everyone now?

  88. CameronB says:

    Daniel Watson
    IMO, the EU is exactly the sort of corporatist venture that would suite Darling down to a tea. 😉

  89. Donzo says:

    I see some responses. This was my first foray into this website. If you google better together your advert comes up.
    It does appear the yes movement may peak too soon with any reasonable alternative view or query just relentlessly ignored, We vote to leave and create a new scotland – is that not the legal analysis or will the rest of the world treat the uk as no more? No. So new country. Step 1. Smiles all round in many homes. We may well get a union. But do we know, really, that we won’t have the uncertainty for a while as to what the yes vote means for currency – if England really does say no which I agree looks like a tactic just now we will end up in the ghastly euro or sitting on this fringe island with a different currency. Okay. But do all the conviction yes voters not suspect that the hiatus in September won’t see the big international banks freeze lending on the basis of currency exposure in scotland?
    I work in financial services – I can’t see this as a non-risk. Not in the real world – as opposed to snp lala land where we stay In Europe (why?) don’t join the euro, get the oil and presumably flower of scotland is our national anthem whilst letting Westminster run the sterlingzone. I don’t understand the point where people compare a sterlingzone to the grim eurozone.
    If we want to be like Norway then follow their lead for goodness sake- our very own scottish kroner, wipe the national debt and join EFTA ! Our current model is based on Eire…hmmm.

    In any case good luck – but these yes websites appear to me to be devoid of any welcome for the cautious undecideds!

  90. Donzo says:

    Ps – rev s.c.
    I note you say the banks will be happy to lend as we will remain in the uk for another 18 months or so – I hope you are right.

    Can anybody find out from the credit sanctioning people in the banks?
    Sterling won’t be converted to euro – it is just a risk we all leave the regulatory and currency framework the banks are in- will they really lend on the same terms? Even if the banks can’t be sure sterling is the currency relevant to the borrower or the asset being offered as security?

    Hmmm- go speak to some bankers. The answer you get will not be comforting I suspect.

  91. Morag says:

    Donzo, if that’s really what you are, a cautious undecided, then welcome.

    However, if you’re so scared to jump the river that you’d rather live forever on the barren land on this side, then cautious is maybe not the word I’d use.

  92. Croompenstein says:

    @Donzo – paragraph breaks FFS

  93. msean says:

    Greece hid the true state of their economy,hoping everything would be ok after joining the Euro,they also forgot to pay their taxes.I remember they also had some crazy things like giving hundreds of euros to citizens at christmas and other holidays,don’t know if thats true or not,but any economy would tank if this was the case combined with non payment of taxes.

    We in Scotland have no control over economic levers,these are run from London,when we enter a currency union,it will be because we agree to give away some sovereignty.The difference is that with independence you have the right to take back that ceded sovereignty.It is better to be independent than dependent.

  94. Croompenstein says:

    Hmmm- go speak to some bankers. The answer you get will not be comforting I suspect

    eh! I think the FM spoke to one..oh what was his name..oh yeh Mark Carney the governor of the Bank of England..

  95. FlimFlamMan says:

    @scottish_skier

    Why don’t Greeks want out of the terrible Euro currency union? Odd that at the height of the Greece crisis, poll after poll showed they wanted to keep the Euro. Maybe it’s because the Euro wasn’t the problem at all? Ah yes, that’s it. The Euro wasn’t the problem at all.

    Come on, you’re better than that. The fact that the Greek people want to stick with the Euro doesn’t mean sticking with the Euro is beneficial to the Greek people. It seems likely, from polls, that UKIP could win the EU elections in England; would that be good, even for the people of England?

    Mainstream economics has so thoroughly poisoned economic thinking that it’s no surprise at all that the Greek people haven’t yet made the connection between their plight and the structures of the Euro. That present reality is not universal though, even among Greek economists:

    http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2014/03/10/open-letter-to-mr-alex-salmond/

    For bonus points; that’s another – no doubt insane – economist saying Scotland should have its own currency. He’s written two posts on the subject.

    I disagree with prof. Varoufakis on Greece leaving the Euro; I think they should. Not because of a fundamental difference of opinion on what could be done to fix the Euro, I just think the professor is too optimistic about what will be done, especially in the short term. Given that people are dying right now the short term matters.

  96. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Donzo –

    You’re a ‘cautious undecided’?

    Oh, really? How interesting.

    What precisely is it that you’re cautious about deciding?

    Pray tell…

  97. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Donzo

    “It does appear the yes movement may peak too soon with any reasonable alternative view or query just relentlessly ignored,

    The no campagin over-played their hand as far back as last autumn. Now they repeat fears and absolutes as if handed down from the mountain.

    The Yes campaign only began properly on publication of the White Paper.

    I sense from your remarks you have yet to read it.

  98. Dr JM Mackintosh says:

    Oh No – you are still slagging off Alistair Darling.

    Can you not see he is suffering for work related stress. It is probably related to an earlier episode where he nearly destroyed the whole UK economy.

    He is displaying the classic emotional and mental symptoms:
    Negative or depressive feeling
    Disappointment with yourself
    Increased emotional reactions – more sensitive or aggressive
    Loneliness, withdrawn
    Loss of motivation commitment and confidence
    Mood swings
    Confusion, indecision
    Cannot concentrate
    Poor memory

    I would recommend a long holiday and a removal from all confrontational situations – i.e. independence debates with Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, John Swinney, or any journalists who may ask an awkward question.

    Hopefully, with a long rest he will be capable of a full recovery if looked after by the NHS in an independent Scotland.

    Trust me I am a Doctor.

  99. CameronB says:

    Donzo
    Hi there. Thank for sharing the that news (news to me).

    :):):) If you google better together your advert comes up.:):):)

    I’m the last person to be irrationally hostile (my avatar’s not really me, honest 🙂 ) I hope you don’t mind if I go through some of the issues you raise.

    It does appear the yes movement may peak too soon with any reasonable alternative view or query just relentlessly ignored

    Is that fact or opinion?

    We may well get a union. But do we know, really, that we won’t have the uncertainty for a while as to what the yes vote means for currency

    Do you not leave your house every day? Do you cross the road? Do you ride a bike?…….What’s the weather going to be tomorrow? ..etc.

    if England really does say no which I agree looks like a tactic just now we will end up in the ghastly euro or sitting on this fringe island with a different currency.

    Is that fact or opinion?

    Do you know what all the options are?

    But do all the conviction yes voters not suspect that the hiatus in September won’t see the big international banks freeze lending on the basis of currency exposure in scotland? (Scotland)

    What is the weather gong to be like tomorrow…..etc.?

    Do you have any historical evidence of a similar circumstance occurring?

    I can’t see this as a non-risk. Not in the real world – as opposed to snp lala land where we stay In Europe (why?) don’t join the euro, get the oil and presumably flower of scotland is our national anthem whilst letting Westminster run the sterlingzone. I don’t understand the point where people compare a sterlingzone to the grim eurozone.

    Life is risky. Neither of us think indyref will remove Scotland from Europe the continent. I personally favour an EU referendum AFTER we have our independence. It would get rather messy otherwise. Imagine peeing before preparing. :).

    I wouldn’t touch the Euro myself and that has nothing to with its trading value.

    The vast majority of the oil is in Scottish waters under international law.

    Can’t stand the tune, as I told some bloke on Calton Hill. Turns out he wrote it. 🙂 I won’t tell you what he replied. :):)

    Westminster currently control the £ with minimal tangible concern or consideration of Scotland’s needs. The top jock at the BoE has already said monetary union is not an issue and that it will require a SHARING of sovereignty. As such, Scotland will GAIN MORE INFLUENCE within the Sterling zone and so be able to look after her needs better. 🙂

    I can see a comparison. Continental European economies run at different speeds, as do Scotland and England. I don’t know which shows the most divergence, but I do know that the rate of economic activity generated by a nation, is largely dependent on the level of parliamentary activity. One major difference between 3 and the Euro, as you will know, is the legal structure providing them with their authority and who has authority over them.

    I’d recommend Public banking, don’t know about you?

  100. Fiona says:

    One of the ongoing problems in all of this is that terms are confused. There is an example above: What do we mean by “Greece”?

    It is also true that a great many lies are told about the situation in Greece prior to the crisis. The MSM repeats lies about it just as they repeat lies about Scotland. Why believe them about Greece and not here?

    1. It is claimed that Greek people retired earlier than other european people. That is a lie. The greek retirement age before the crisis was 65 for men and 60 for women. It is true that some took early retirement, just as they did here. It had the same consequences for state pensions as it did here too: you did not get a full state pension unless you had worked for 37 years (compared with 30 years in the UK at that time)

    2. It is claimed that Greek people worked shorter hours than other european people. That is a lie. They worked the longest hours in Europe

    http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

    3. It is claimed that Greek people did not pay tax: ordinary people were subject to PAYE just as we are. No evidence at all that they avoided it in greater numbers than we do, that I have seen. It is true that the very wealthy avoided tax on a grand scale: like they do everywhere, but perhaps even more so. More importantly Greece is heavily dependent on shipping and it just so happens that income derived from shipping is exempt; as is income from share dividends and capital gains on sales of businesses between family members. I wonder who wrote those laws, which were in force from the time of the Colonels. The state revenue (tax) in Greece is 37% of GDP compared to an EU average of 44%: and this is because the rich are not taxed effectively and major corporations are not taxed at all. there is an interesting paper relating that to a history of right wing dictatorship here

    http://www.vnavarro.org/?p=6073

    4. Greek businesses are very largely foreign owned: that is a consequence of low interest rates there and is in line with what mainstream orthodoxy recommends for developing countries: remember that Foreign Direct Investment is a jolly good thing and we are to rejoice in globalisation. But again it happens that foreign companies in Greece are only taxed on income generated in Greece. Like most places, in fact. We know what that means: they never make any money here or there: they make it in the Cayman islands.

    5. It is claimed that Greece spent too much on public services and that is the source of the problem. That is not true either. For example (and from the paper linked above) the average adult employment in the public sector social welfare field in the EU is 15%. In Greece it is 14% but that includes 3% which relates to services for the army, and other countries do not include those in their figures. It is also true that Greece spends an absurd amount of money on defence: which goes to the main arms traders in the UK and Germany and the US. Doesn’t do the greek people any good, any more than it does us

    6. In preparation for entry into the euro Greece did a lot of the usual “restructuring” so beloved of the IMF and other international economic bodies with an agenda. Partly for this reason Greece was one of the most unequal countries in Europe, as measured by the Gini coefficient. As is by now familiar it was apparently necessary to ensure that the share of national wealth which went to labour fell of they were to enter the EU.

    The fact is that Greece did all that was asked of them and the charge that they fiddled the books is not actually true. What they did do, and which is reprehensible, is to raise money from so called currency transactions with Goldman Sachs. But then that is no different from PFI in this country and it has the same results. Somehow the fact that it is openly acknowledged that PFI transactions are designed to be off balance sheet does not lead to the same criticism in this country as it does now in Greece. Again I wonder why

    The fact that Greek debt is not a problem is demonstrated by this little reported fact, as well

    The problem with the Greek Balance sheet was well known by 2010 because by then the goldman sachs stuff had been revealed. Yet greek government bonds issued in that year were oversubscribed.

  101. Fiona says:

    @ FlimFlamMan

    I too agree that Greece should leave the Eurozone

    I found this quite helpful in thinking about it

    Oh, and I should add that the IMF has now admitted that its analysis of the situation in Greece was wrong; its prescriptions were also wrong; but happily the consequences for Greece are not too bad. Shame about the suicide rate; the lack of health care; the level of child poverty; the homelessness; and the rise of fascist thugs. But you can’t make an omelette, as they say

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/feb/24/christine-lagarde-troika-wrong-on-greece

  102. Grouse Beater says:

    @ Flim Flam

    Remember the lie that more Porsches were sold in Athens than in the whole of the UK?

    A nasty piece of black propaganda repeated by the British press for weeks.

    There’s nothing as satisfying as defiling an entire nation before supper.

  103. CameronB says:

    “I worry that there are too many cornflakes who aren’t being given a good enough chance to rustle and hustle their way to the top.”

    Out the way less-able, the master race is coming through. Old news, but how can someone with such clearly eugenicist leanings hold public office?

    Just saying

    Vote YES

  104. taysideterrier says:

    Some very informative and well written stuff there Fiona, Its not like the MSM to consciously misinterpret information and miss lead the Public is it. Cheers

  105. FlimFlamMan says:

    @Fiona

    I just skimmed that grauniad piece – it’s bedtime – but off the top of my head this is the third time they’ve admitted being wrong about Euro issues.

    If only it would change what they tell countries to do. Sure, there’s some unpleasantness with poverty, starvation, and death, but look at the value of the Euro! Omelettes indeed.

    Top work on your previous comment too, and as I said to Murray on another thread, thanks for the engaging conversations.

    @Grouse Beater

    Lies? In the British press? Next you’ll be telling me there’s been gambling in Casablanca.

    Yep, I remember that, and numerous others. It’s, ugh, you know what it is.

    Time for bed.

  106. Fiona says:

    @ FlimFlamMan

    The IMF is a particular bugbear of mine.

    They seldom admit they were wrong in any meaningful sense: and they do not do this here, either. At least not in the sense that they take any responsibility for the outcomes. They just pretend those outcomes are not there

    If anyone is interested I spent a little time reading stuff from the IMF a while ago before it got too frustrating and my monitor was endangered. I made some posts outlining some of their choicer idiocies here:

    http://thosebigwords.forumcommunity.net/?t=48677750

    It can all be summed up in something from the last post there

    So there we have it. Countries which are experiencing no growth have to make fiscal cuts. Countries which are flatlining have to make fiscal cuts. Countries which are growing have to make fiscal cuts. And that means cutting wages. They soften this by the usual “targeting” rhetoric to give the impression that the poorest will be protected. We know what that means

    Bunch of chancers!

  107. ian foulds says:

    Have a heart for all these 5th columnists.

    These people in Better Together are putting their reputations on the line, to allow Scotland the opportunity to separate from the Union – through what they say and do.

    As a caring Nation, we should consider putting up a statue in Edinburgh, after March 2016, in the shape of a Q(uisling) and listing all their names – for future generations to honour them

  108. FortBill says:

    I think there has been a fundamental change in the currency issue, what many scots are now starting to think if a currency union is worth it, and what kind of conditions would we have to agree too.
    I think that initially a currency union may be useful, but not necessary, I also think that it would benefit the rest of the UK more than Scotland, so the emphasis in the negotiations after a yes vote will be the UK proposing a currency union and Scotland’s government agreeing if the conditions suit.
    The best quote I have heard is “The UK has painted themselves into a corner and have left The Scottish government the rest of the room to dance in”

  109. Will Podmore says:

    The Greek government was keen to join the euro. The Greek people have suffered the effects of that bad decision, and the effects of many other bad decisions made by their government.
    As Fiona writes, “In preparation for entry into the euro Greece did a lot of the usual “restructuring” so beloved of the IMF and other international economic bodies with an agenda. Partly for this reason Greece was one of the most unequal countries in Europe, as measured by the Gini coefficient. As is by now familiar it was apparently necessary to ensure that the share of national wealth which went to labour fell of they were to enter the EU.”
    So entering the euro is not good for you!

  110. Bob Costello says:

    Bill
    you have a very good point there and I also think that Scotland will be in a much stronger barganing position than the rest of the uk as they need us more than we need them . We also multiple options , where as they only have two, curency union or not

  111. Betty Boop says:

    @ Fiona 11:23 31/3/14

    Thank you Fiona for reminding us that Scotland is not the only country mis-represented in the media. Greece takes a battering constantly from our so called journalists. It has been a handy scapegoat for other Eurozone countries and the UK to deflect attention from the real banking problem.

  112. Donzo says:

    @cameronb

    Thanks for your response. As I commented on another page and have been called a fanny and troll I’ll vacate this space – and seek my enlightenment on another platform.



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