Scottish independence, plus jokes.

Wings Over Scotland


Normal service coming soon

Posted on September 23, 2013 by

Okay, we’ve got a LOT of housekeeping-type stuff to get on with, so the next couple of days might be a wee bit quiet. We’ll need to be dealing with the ridiculous goings-on at the Labour conference this weekend at some point, but for now let’s just round up the last few issues regarding Saturday’s awesome independence march and rally and get it all out of the way.

1. Firstly, we need to say a big, big thanks to the organisers of the event. For all the issues that people including ourselves have raised (and are about to), this was still a heck of a thing to put together with no visible support from Yes Scotland or any other major players in the Yes camp – it seems to us that the official campaign needs to bite the bullet and throw its name and weight behind next year’s event.

By and large, though, it went off impressively smoothly, and anything we say below is meant in the way of constructive suggestion rather than complaint.

2. For the record, our estimate of the attendance, based on actually being there and on studying photos afterwards, is around 15,000. There were clearly people who marched but didn’t go up Calton Hill, and it seems impossible to us to place the crowd actually on the Hill at anything below 12,000.

Compare this shot of last year’s event:

2012rally

…with this one from Saturday:

2013rally

Now, the Ross Bandstand stage is pretty much the same size as the one used on Calton Hill, so you can tell how much higher up the 2013 pic is taken from. We put the 2012 figures at 6000-7000, and it seems beyond any sensible dispute, given the distance, that there are at least twice as many people in the second image if you bring all the groups together.

We saw almost no police on the day. A few lined the route and there were basically none on the Hill itself. There was a Hibs game a few hundred yards down the road that afternoon. It’s plain that the police “estimate” of 8300 reflects the low number of officers they’d committed to the rally – correctly anticipating no trouble – rather than any count of actual marchers.

3. As we’ve said previously, while it’s an iconic venue in its own right, in our view Calton Hill is a bad place to hold an event like this. We personally and directly know people who were put off attending because of the hill climb, despite the assistance available (nobody wants to be a burden) and despite the fact that if you go up the road rather than the steps, it’s actually a very gentle walk.

There are problems with other venues too – the Meadows, while offering high capacity and better logistics, are a bit far out, especially if you want to have a high-profile presence in the heart of the Princes St/High St area at some point.

But Calton Hill is fragmented, awkward and uncomfortable for spectators, and a terrible hostage to weather. We got lucky on Saturday. On a windy, rainy Scottish autumn day, the whole thing would have been a washout in a way that isn’t true of less exposed locations. We hope somewhere else will be found for next year.

(Easier said than done, sure. But one thought – does it HAVE to be outdoors?)

4. The procession was oddly quiet. The pipe band at the front seemed to go quiet very quickly, and much of the march was conducted in eerie silence. Next year let’s get a few drummers spread along the line at least.

5. The number of toilets available was ridiculous, especially for a family event that was going to have lots of women, older folk and kids. The Glastonbury festival has approximately one toilet for every 25 attendees. The rally – while only half a day long rather than three days – had one for every 3,000.

The queues were insane by quite early on, and there’s simply no conceivable justification for such farcially inadequate provision when the likely attendance was obviously going to be in the thousands. Men and even some women were reduced to going in the bushes, despite not much cover being on offer.

It’s a fair hike from the Hill to anywhere else with facilities, and you just can’t ask people to hold it in for four hours.

6. Similarly inexcusable is the “map” for the assembly on the High Street being kept a secret. We had to chase around to get hold of a copy at 8pm on the evening before, whereupon we found that the place we planned to have our group meet had been roped off for VIPs. We were an officially-registered participating group, and it’s idiotic that we had no idea until hours before the start.

(We also didn’t have the slightest notion that it was possible to have a stall at the event until the day before. The website was a mess, and didn’t offer anyone trying to publicise the event even the most basic of tools, like site banners – we had to make our own. There appeared to be no advertising of any sort in Edinburgh, and while leaflets cost money, that’s what fundraising sites are for. There were also no leaflets people could print out for themselves.)

7. While we’re talking about Wings, we also need to do some stuff a bit better next time. It’ll probably be a good idea, and less chaotic, to meet somewhere further away from the official assembly point and less busy, then have our own wee mini-march to get to it. I managed to meet 300 or so readers anyway, but we ended up scattered all over the place.

And next time we’re definitely organising an after-party.

8. While there’s no point having a rally and not having lots of speeches, too many were uninspiring. It is of course vital to have as wide a spectrum of speakers as possible, but some were clearly there to tick boxes rather than for their oratorial skills. People like Hardeep Singh Kohli and Elaine C Smith stood out a mile for their comfort being on stage in front of people.

We’d like to see more normal people, as well as more people experienced at whipping up a crowd, rather than just a parade of the same old politicos. And while we ourselves are obviously too awful and divisive, it was ludicrous that there was NOBODY onstage representing the vast online Yes community.

9. The print coverage, in fairness, wasn’t bad. The Sunday Herald had plenty (including the front cover), Scotland on Sunday wasn’t bad, the Sunday Mail had a decent two-page spread, even the Express was fairly respectable. (The Telegraph, on the other hand, soiled itself abysmally.)

The broadcast media, however, was a disgrace. The BBC and STV both gave it the absolute minimum airtime on news bulletins they could possibly get away with, and devoted almost as much time to “Better Together” director Blair McDougall as to the march. BBC Scotland is so (rightly) ashamed of itself that Saturday evening’s teatime Scottish news bulletin still isn’t available on iPlayer, and we strongly suspect never will be.

Sunday Politics Scotland, meanwhile, gave the rally exactly four seconds of coverage. If we use our modest 15,000 attendance guess, a rally of that size in Scotland is the equivalent of about 150,000 people from England marching on Hyde Park, and the notion that that wouldn’t be reported at length – imagine, say, that it was making a demand for English independence or an English Parliament – is so obviously absurd it doesn’t even need saying.

(Much of the show was instead devoted to the Labour conference. Is it fair that in specifically Scottish broadcasting, the Unionist parties get twice as many bites of the cherry as the SNP do, having both their Scottish conference and the Scottish bits of its UK conference given extensive airtime?)

Anyway, we’re drifting off the subject, so let’s wrap it up there. Those are all the things we thought about the independence rally. Now we’ve got stuff to do. Back soon.

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339 to “Normal service coming soon”

  1. naebd says:

    “Is it fair that in specifically Scottish broadcasting, the Unionist parties get twice as many bites of the cherry as the SNP do, having both their Scottish conference and the Scottish bits of its UK conference given extensive airtime?”

    Best of Both Worlds, innit.

  2. ` says:

    Excellent as usual.
    Can I point another issue that could effect voters on TRIDENT. please allow this link.
    http://uk.news.yahoo.com/new-book-reveals-secret-history-of–near-miss–accidents-with-h-bombs-092827045.html#RQsWs3t 
    It might focus the minds of doubters as to what could happen here, and whether or not we would be told about it, unless obviously catastrophic , I would doubt we would ever be told.

  3. Gillie says:

    Next year we could have between 50,000 and 100,000 marchers. It has to be the Meadows to not only accommodate such a number but also to make it a much bigger event to attract all different sorts of people; with a whole day of planned activities, the march, speeches, music, stalls aplenty, activities for the kids, etc.
     
    Make it an Independence Festival at the Meadows, something that will leave a lasting impression.

  4. smac says:

    a lot of good points there Stu. another thing I’d like to have seen would have been more pipe bands or even drummers spaced throughout the length of the march – this would add to the atmosphere.
    The one thing I did notice of Saturday as I marched was that all the Spectators were smiling and waving. A great day!

  5. BillDunblane says:

    Good and fair comment Stu.
    Sorry didn’t get to meet you.

  6. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Onwards and Upwards Wingslanders !!  Still on a high ( but wae gey sore feet ) :-)

  7. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “another thing I’d like to have seen would have been more pipe bands or even drummers spaced throughout the length of the march – this would add to the atmosphere.”

    Dang, that was the one other thing I meant to say. Edited in now.

  8. Keef says:

    Stu make a mental note to use some of that folding stuff that was thrust into your hands on the hill to at least double the total of wings ‘bajis’ For next year. They featured time and time again in posts and seemed to be truly cherished by some.

    Please don’t make them available anywhere other than next years rally (they have a genuine drawing power).

    Thanks for all your efforts in keeping us uptodate with all the news as it happened.

  9. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “please allow this link.”

    It’s only because I’m in a VERY good mood that I’m doing so. Going OT is fine, doing it in the SECOND COMMENT on a post is really quite rude.

  10. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Stu make a mental note to use some of that folding stuff that was thrust into your hands on the hill to at least double the total of wings ‘bajis’ For next year. They featured time and time again in posts and seemed to be truly cherished by some.”

    I wanted to have 400 of the button ones rather than 100, but the badge companies were startlingly useless and took forever to get the test run out. In the end even the 100 I had only just made it in the nick of time.

    And yes, I like the idea of the march badges being rare and sought-after, but will look at the possibility of doing other ones for the shop.

  11. Geoff Huijer says:

    I clicked on the March & Rally For Independence website months ago and discovered there were to be stalls.
     
    I just couldn’t afford one in the end, but then, I couldn’t afford the £4 bus fair to go to the event from Fife anyway.
     
    Looked (and sounds) like it was a great day though!

  12. Luigi says:

    I think the Meadows would be a great venue for next year’s rally, but where to assemble?  How about a circular march, start at the Meadows, hit the old toon/Princes Street and back to the Meadows for the rally?
     
    MARCH FOR HOPE

  13. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Steady Keef !! :-)  Many of us waded through Rivers, climbed rugged mountains, killed Grizzly Baarrz with our bare hands then held aloft a thunkin big flag pole better versed for caber tossers only to find out there were nane left. ( Mental note to the Rev Stu – need to find a better flag pole..pool cue’s gravitational pull gets stronger after a while :-))

  14. DMyers says:

    The woman I was walking beside on the march said that not many pipe bands attend marches these days because they are sponsored, and they can’t be seen to be taking sides over political matters.  I don’t know how true that is, but it could be an explanation as to why there was only the one band at the foot of the road up the hill.

    I did think the choice of venue was a bit weird, and it really wasn’t comfortable to stand on uneven ground for three and a half hours.  But I suppose it’s a place where there have been significant marches in the past of our self-governance journey.

    In terms of the attendance, there were apparently a load of people who hadn’t been allowed to go up the hill because of a lack of space, so they would have been down outside St. Andrew’s House.  I didn’t see them, so I have no idea how many that would have been.

    All in all, it was a great day and next year’s can be much better.

  15. Linda's Back says:

    Whilst one can only congratulate the organiser for doing a great job, I agree about the venue  plus toilets.
    Also the first batch of leaflets advertising the event stated Calton Hill 11 am to 4 pm , I wonder how many turned up at 11 am then  gave up before waiting for any speeches or music to start. I wasn’t there at that time…… just wondering.

  16. Horacesaysyes says:

    I, of course, agree with the sentiments about the lack of toilets, and Calton Hill was probably not the ideal venue, but overall it was a thoroughly enjoyable day.

    I agree with smac, too. Drummers or pipers throughout the march itself would have been a good move – it seemed strangely quiet for that number of folk, I thought!

  17. Delia says:

    That aerial photograph was taken an hour after our party of five left the hill for precisely the reason that there we all needed the toilet and a bite to eat and couldn’t be bothered with the massive queues for the food vans and portaloos. I’m sure we were not the only ones to have left within that hour.

  18. Iain Hamilton says:

    My naivete stuns me at times. I had no idea the Edinburgh marches were “unofficial”. As mentioned earlier the atmosphere was great, vibrant, relaxed, happy. As someone who has taken to the streets on a few occasions from the Rock against Racism marches in the late 70s to the anti Iraq War demo a few years back, I think it is the most positive march I have ever participated in. Then, it is the first time I have marched FOR something rather than against it. I wish I had made last year’s march. Won’t miss next year’s for the world (or at least oor wee bit of it). Heading OT: was delighted to see the Major in the RT coverage of the march. Since we were just a matter of yards behind him, we almost made it on to the telly  :) A bit like the whole march on the BBC (almost, just almost).

  19. Craig says:

    I think your estimate of the figures is accurate. We were equating the 8000 figure as “four full Barrowlands” – there were obviously WAY more than that. Another thing to consider is the amount of confirmed Yessers who for various reasons, couldn’t make the march. I knew of at least a dozen who either had previous commitments, were ill, or just “don’t do marches”. No excuses next year, we need to get everyone off their arses.

  20. Bubbles says:

    We could maybe crowd fund some WoS banners? Great big ones! I’d be proud to help carry it.

  21. molly says:

    I saw a guy had walked from the east end of Glasgow to attend the 5live debate and other folk have said the cost of getting to Edinburgh was a factor , is there not a YES supporter ( as a one off) could lay on buses from every city next year ?  Mmm lets think ?

  22. Dcanmore says:

    Yeah I would say The Meadows too, okay there maybe distance issues but people can plan their walk/march ahead more effectively (less able can join the march further along the route nearer the venue) and those who can’t do it can head straight to the venue early waiting for the marchers. As the previous poster says it can be a festival type gathering and atmosphere with tents, stalls, bands (bagpipe, drums, folk and rock), speeches from all groups and with enough room to wander comfortably. Also publicity needs to be sort out months in advance.

  23. Mosstrooper says:

    As for TV cover it is a bit weird that one has to go to Russian television for decent coverage.
    Scottish TV my arse!

  24. Wee_monsieur says:

    4. The procession was oddly quiet.
     
    We need a suitable chant or song.

  25. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Bubbles,  I agree with you, I think we should seriously ask Stuart to allow us to hold a fundraiser for additional promotional material, but also to help underpin his continued efforts to promote and develop the site with (hopefully) additional staff to help spread the load.    The fact that I’ve witnessed the fruits of his labour with the gathering of us lot just reinforces my wish that his brainchild grows and grows…it’s in my vested interest to ensure that it succeeds and when we gain independence, we can all go out en masse and get a WoS tattoo !  ( ok, take that bit back )

  26. It was great meeting you, Rev, and so many other wonderful people, and I agree with your suggestions for next year’s rally.
     
    Here are a few more ideas of my own:
     
    (1) Make an official list of assembly points and put it on a poster so that people who just turn up can read it (e.g., “Yes East Renfrewshire to assemble at 219 High Street”).
     
    (2) Create assembly points in the rally area. For instance, put letters on sticks so that you can text your friends that you are at assembly point X. I got a lot of texts describing in vague terms where on Calton Hill people were, and as a result I didn’t see lots of people that I really wanted to speak to.
     
    (3) Make the whole rally visible from the stage — I’ve seen so many photos taken from there, trying to show the crowd, but it obviously only showed a small proportion of the people there.
     
    (4) Get Yes Scotland to tell all local groups to make a huge banner and participate in great numbers.  I only saw a handful of local group banners, but there should have been a hundred or so.

  27. Wee_monsieur says:

    The broadcast media, on the other hand, was a disgrace. The BBC and STV both gave it the absolute minimum airtime on news bulletins they could possibly get away with

    I saw film crews for Russia Today, France 24, Antenne2 (also France) and WRN, Wisconsin. Didn’t see ANY Scottish broadcaster.

  28. Helen Yates says:

    Agree totally with your remarks regarding the venue and the eerie silence during march, we really must get this right next year, still had a fabulous day though and we tried so hard to find you but alas didn’t succeed

  29. DonDeefLugs says:

    @rev Interesting you suggest an indoor venue. There are lots to choose from e.g. Edinburgh Playhouse, McEwan Hall, Festival Theatre to name a few.
    Personally, I think the meadows would be the best place. According to Google maps, walking from Princes Street to Melville Drive (top of the meadows) via The Mound and George IV bridge, it’s only 1.1 miles. From the Royal Mile to the meadows it’s just a short stroll.

  30. Taranaich says:

    Take your time, Rev: I realise you will be champing at the bit (did I get that right, Morag?) to get stuck back in, but you deserve to recuperate and let the positive energy do its work. After everything you’ve been through, and everything unfairly thrown in your general direction, I can think of few others who deserve so many people shaking their hand and giving thanks for all the fine work you do in person. One of these days, perhaps next year when my health & financial situation is better, I’ll be able to do it too. But until then…

  31. Colin Cameron says:

    RE: the Reporting Scotland episode that’s missing from iPlayer – is it archived anywhere else? YouTube etc? Quick search couldn’t find it unfortunately.

  32. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Bubbles, I agree with you, I think we should seriously ask Stuart to allow us to hold a fundraiser for additional promotional material, but also to help underpin his continued efforts to promote and develop the site with (hopefully) additional staff to help spread the load.”

    We’re fine for now, ta. The big Feb/March appeal said it was seeking to raise funds for a year, so there’ll be another one around the same point in 2014 to get us the rest of the way. We have a lot more readers now, so the target will probably be bigger, because there’s a fair bit of specific stuff I have in mind that’ll cost money (particularly in the form of printed materials).

    I reckon I spent the fat end of £500 on coming up for the march, between travel, flag, cards (underused in the end, needs a rethink next time), badges and whatnot, but I assumed folk wouldn’t mind that being taken out of the “overflow” from the poll fundraisers.

  33. Jeannie says:

    @Scott Minto
     
    Hope the wedding celebrations went well, Scott.  It would have been nice to have met you, but we understand.  But see if you’re reading this………you’re obsessed!  Get back to your honeymoon duties!

  34. Big Drone says:

    I was in the pipe  band at the head of the march and the reason it went ‘quiet’ after a shortish while was because we had outmarched the head of the marchers and had to wait for them to catch up!! I agree with other comments on here re the venue. It’s maybe not the terrain for comfortable standing or viewing of such a fantastically well attended and well organised event.  I also agree that with the numbers involved it might have been better had there been pipe bands spaced throughout the marchers but again many bands have sponsors who may not wish to become involved in what is still perceived as a ‘political’ movement.  They could play as individual musicians and not bear any insignia of their official band.  Anyway – a fantastic day was had and a whole year to the big one – lots of time for thoughts, ideas and planning – see you there  (wherever)  30th August 2014  – YES?!

  35. Keef says:

    Have the organisers looked at sponsorship? Irn Bru, The famous Grouse, Baxters, to name a few who might be acceptable. Even a bus company :-)

    As Oor Eck said this victory will be the people’s victory. We’re gonna win this so what better way to achieve commercial success than by having the foresight to back the people’s aspirations?

  36. Morag says:

    I seriously think Stu’s estimate of the numbers is short.  Obviously organisers are expected to overstate their case, but they were announcing 30,000.  I don’t think they doubled the reality.  It appears that once the police clocked what was going on, and drafted in some extra McPlods on the ground, they themselves revised their estimate to 20,000.  Police have never knowlingly understated the size of such an event.
     
    The confounder is, at what point did the stewards (and police) actually stop people from coming on to the hill?  Some say the hill’s official capacity is 12,000, some say 15,000 and some say 20,000.  The difficulty is, I’m certain there were many more than 12,000 actually up there.
     
    Stu compares it with last year, but he wasn’t there.  I was, and I’m comparing what I saw with my own eyes, not two difficult-to-compare photographs.  There were at least three times as many people visible on the hill as were visible in Princes Street Gardens last year.  So even if you take Stu’s estimate for last year of 7,000 as correct, you’re over 20,000.  And I think 8,000 or 8,500 might have been closer, though I wouldn’t press that point.
     
    Also, some people didn’t climb the hill but vewed from the bottom, and some people just marched and didn’t stay for the rally at all.  I think splitting the difference betwen the organisers’ and the police estimates isn’t unreasonable.

  37. Ian Grant says:

    The photos are in no way comparable. The aerial photo of Calton Hill was taken at 2.30 when many folk had drifted off for a late lunch or pint, and folk who couldn’t get near the stage, drifted off home. I thought the march awesome, if a little quiet, but the hill, although it made a great place for wandering about and chatting to old friends, was not a good place for a large political rally. I had to watch all the speeches on a large screen, never saw the speakers in the flesh. Despite all that, it was a great day, and I thought the speakers (almost all of them ) were fantastic, as were the musicians. Well done Jeff and Anne.

  38. Ruby Tuesday says:

    Last year’s aerial shot is good/OK.  Nice and sharp and reasonably well cropped.  However what I would like to see is if at the point this photograph was taken if there were marchers still coming down the Mound.    I would like to see someone do a Hockney style ‘joiner’ (photo collage) or use photoshop to create a panorama. 

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uUJv070UwU

    I want a panorama of photographs taken at precisely 12.45 to include The Royal Mile, North Bridge, Regent Terrace & Calton Hill.    Can anyone help?      

    This year’s aerial shot is awful!   Bloody awful!

    The RT video footage was fantastic but I can’t find that anymore.  Has it been taken off line? 

  39. kininvie says:

    Indeed, the March & rally is unofficial, and I think Jeff and Anne organise the whole thing on a voluntary basis and more or less by themselves. So maybe one of the things we could usefully do as individuals is to volunteer to help – especially maybe in the last few weeks, when the inevitable mishaps or misunderstandings need to be sorted in a hurry.
     
    In fairness, the website stated that a map of the march organisation would be available on the 2nd Sept (that was about at the point where we started discussing where to meet), so I searched hard for it. It didn’t appear on 2nd – I imagine because various bits of bureacracy may have been holding it up. Anyone who has ever organised anything as comparatively simple as a gala day well knows what a nightmare all the permissions and licenses etc. involve. For all I know, half a hundred toilets may have been ordered, but unless there are enough people helping, so that it’s someone’s task to make sure the things actually arrive……
     
    As for publicity – there were appeals on the website for donations for leaflet printing as far back as February, and boxes were available for distribution from April. I don’t know what the take-up was, or how many were actually distributed, but there again, unless there are enough volunteers……
     
    The whole thing was being run off the back of one website and one twitter feed, and a lot of sites which should have been carrying the links simply weren’t, for far too long. That includes Yes Scotland. So, all in all, it was a remarkable success, considering….
     
    I think it was a big mistake  for the Yes campaign not to throw its full weight behind the march. I suppose it’s in keeping with the grass roots idea to let these things grow of their own accord – but at some point you have to shit or get off the pot,  – and more money (what does a group of hairy drummers cost?) and more publicity could have made a lot of difference.
     
    I hope if Anne is reading these comments, she’ll come out and tell us where and when she needs help and/or donations for next year, and how we can best use the power of Wings to help turn ‘The Big One’ into the most successful march yet.

  40. Ruby Tuesday says:

    Ian Grant
    Interesting.  There is no way of telling when that awful photograph was taken.   Who paid to have that photograph taken?  

  41. Mosstrooper says:

    Apparently, according to torn face Lamont the battle is between Scotland and Salmond and Scotland will win.  Ehh,  WTF?
    Does this wummin occupy the same planet as me?

  42. kininvie says:

    Ruby,
    RT footage still there as of now:
    http://rt.com/in-motion/
     

  43. Brian Powell says:

    Very useful article in Newsnet Scotland on the BBC and its coverage of Independence.

    Just occurred to me when watching the Debate from  the Borders the other week, one of the experts brought in by the BBC, when they talked about Scotland in NATO when Trident is removed, said that no country has had nuclear weapons expelled from its soil and gained entry to NATO.

    However no one pulled him up on this to point out that Spain did that, with US nuclear weapons.

    Quote from article in Newsnet from some time ago.

    “A treaty between Spain and the USA agreeing the removal of the submarines and warheads was ratified by the US Senate in 1976.  The removal of the nuclear weapons system was complete by 1979.  Spain joined NATO in 1982, after its transition to democracy.”

    ProUnionists would want to dance around this possibly trying to make out it was different circumstances or other nonsense. However it happened and is can be done.

    We are already a democracy, which was the delay for Spain, it was still getting there after Franco.

  44. Jeannie says:

    @Ruby Tuesday
     
    I know who took the photo – from the castle esplanade.  It was taken during Margo MacDonald’s speech, which was near the start of the rally and there were still people arriving into the bandstand area at that time, but he can’t remember beyond that.

  45. The Man in the Jar says:

    I was wishing that someone had got a hold of wee Saffron Dickson and got her on stage for a short speech. I am sure that she would have gone down a storm. 

  46. Jeannie says:

    @Ruby Tuesday
     
    It was also just taken using a mobile phone.  He didn’t do anything else to it – wouldn’t know how to (don’t know if Stu did anything to it, don’t think so).

  47. Frances says:

    Stu, put the business cards on sale – I’ll buy them as I’m sure quite a lot of us would.

  48. PRJ says:

    There could have been speakers from the EU favouring Scotlands entry to Europe. The attendance was predominantly YesScotland with a smatering of other groups. YesScotland favour door to door and street canvasing, was there any personal invitations given out to individuals expressing an interest to independence at the time? Next years march needs to include more of the public. 

  49. Keef says:

    What I find most heartening is the fact people have only just got home and they are already analysing where things, went wrong, how things can be better, and the sheer enthusiasm for next year is already off and running. I predict Scotland’s biggest ever rally coming to a meadow near you next March.
    March for hope. Sounds good, but Scotland’s March for Independence sounds better.
    Any other suggestions?

  50. Mad Jock McMad says:

    There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.

  51. Ed says:

    The sound system was way, way too loud. These sound engineers are often used to concerts, where high volume – which affects the body as well as the ears – is desirable for the power of the performance.

    But that does not apply to rally speeches. In that case, the effect of high volume is just horrible. Yes, the sound should be clearly audible for the whole crowd. But on Calton Hill there was an additional sound system immediately behind the Monument as well. Combined, these were overkill – and people were unable to converse, even standing well back.

    In terms of the emotional response which makes good rallies good, this had a damaging effect on Saturday. It’s important for a large crowd to hear its own united voice as loud, but when the individual speakers are amplified into the stratosphere, the crowd sounds puny in comparison – even when it numbers in the thousands.

    Next year: turn it down, and turn up the crowd’s sense of participation.

  52. Morag says:

    The RT clip isn’t just still there, it’s downloadable.  It is safely nestling on my hard drive.  Invite it on to yours!
     
    Another confounder of the aerial shot is that a lot of grassy areas look empty – but these areas are actually on about a 45% slope away from the stage area.  Some people were walking (or rather climbing) across them to get from one part of the hill to another, but nobody was standing there for obvious reasons.
     
    The height of the copter that took the shot is way way higher than the shot from the castle ramparts from 2012.  It’s impossible to compare the pictures.  I think 20,000+ on the hill and another bunch at the bottom or leaving before the rally bringing it to 25,000 is a reasonable guess.  If the police said 20,000, no way was it less than that!

  53. Barbara Watson says:

    I did try to find all you Wingers at the Albannach but it was just too busy, I had a fantastic day regardless.  As it turned out I was just ahead of you all in the march. but I just knew you were all near.  Can I just say to all the people that are part of Wings Over Scotland, especially the Rev, and the people dedicated to the Yes campaign, thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping me sane this past while.  The MSM are a bloody disgrace in this country, the fear and smear tactics are frightening the vulnerable in our society, the very people that an independent Scotland will support.  I have to believe that we will achieve our goal of a better Scotland for all.  My thoughts on the march on Saturday is that, it probably was a bit subdued and could have been better, hindsight is a wonderful thing indeed.  For me the most inspiring aspect of the whole day was the quiet dignity and self respect of the very proud Scots, be they of whatever colour or creed, age or gender, four legs or two.  All of the speakers were passionate, informed and inspiring it would be difficult to choose which was the best.  Thank you all once more for making me feel that I am not alone 
     
    Barbara
     

  54. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.”

    Aye, most chants are just embarrassing. But SOME kind of sound – even if just a drumbeat – would be better, I think. It just felt weird to be walking down North Bridge in silence. This wasn’t a protest or sombre occasion where that would have been appropriate.

  55. Robert Kerr says:

    Your not so Mad, Mad Jock.
     
    I found the silence very telling, happy people with a purposeful stride. Some marchers near me were chanting…. “what do we want” stuff. Stopped soon though.
    Saor Alba

  56. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The sound system was way, way too loud.”

    From where we were standing, if anything the opposite was true. The first couple of speeches in particular were all but inaudible.

  57. Desimond says:

    Remember THAT Fuschia coloured jacket…seems its all over the Labour Party iconography now!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24194754

  58. Macandroid says:

    Can I suggest queens park (holyrood) for next year?
    March down the Royal Mile past the Parliament to the park. Loads of space. 

  59. Keef says:

    The Ides of March was the 15th of March ( the turning point of the Roman Empire). 15th of March 2014 just happens to be a Saturday :-).
    Seems to me as great omen/portent of Scotland’s victory if it happenethat hat the rally was held on that day. Wonder if that ‘public toilet from Africa’ fella has any comment on that :-).

  60. Jeannie says:

    Wish we could have a really good concert for Indy – on the castle esplanade or Stirling castle esplanade.  I’ve been to concerts on both and it’s such a wonderful experience.  At Runrig’s 30th anniversary concert at Stirling castle, there was a point where they brought out Glasgow Gaelic Choir to sing a part of one of the songs – and it was absolutely magical.  Marches and rallies are great but it’s time we started to party for indy – and make sure everybody’s invited.  There’s lots of undecided people out there who don’t want involved in politics – but just might want to come to a party.

  61. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think it was a big mistake for the Yes campaign not to throw its full weight behind the march. “

    Yes. I understand their reticence last year, in case it turned out to be a flop, but when it packed out its available capacity it should have been picked up by professionals and promoted properly.

    The folk saying “X was on the website” just make my point about the layout being a horrible mess that made things far too hard to find, in favour of pointless vast background images.

    (Images which, idiotically, were Ctrl-C copy-protected so nobody could use them in attempts at generating publicity.)

    And when you’re organising/publicising something entirely online, not having something as basic as web banners available defies belief.

  62. Macandroid says:

    Lament looks like a ‘blond’ Mo from the three stooges. 

  63. Ruby Tuesday says:

    kininvie 
     
    Thank you!   Excellent RT have a ‘download video’ option which is very kind of them.   I’ve downloaded the video so I should be able to find it easier in future.  
     
    I’ve read their request re re-uploading etc so I won’t be doing anything unethical.   However I’m going to run it through the Gom Player thingy and convert every frame into a still.   That’s always good fun!
     
    Gom player is free and the ‘burst capture’  facility is brilliant! 
     

  64. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I think splitting the difference betwen the organisers’ and the police estimates isn’t unreasonable.”

    Well, that would give you just under 19K, which is closer to my assessment than to 25,000.

    I heard the Hill’s limit expressed variously – all by people closely involved, not just random marchers – as 12K, 15K and 18K.

  65. Robert Kerr says:

    This agonising over numbers plays into the enemies hands.
    Who cares. I don’t.
    Lots went ! 
    Saor Alba
     

  66. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    The police did stop people from going up the hill whenitwas judged full and there was another stop of the march for about 20 minutes as disabled folk were got to the top.
    That photograph does not look correct at all. I know where I was standing and it was full. It is nearly empty in the photo. This could have been taken when the march had been stopped a good bit backfrom the climb up to the hill toallow the disableds up or after Alex Salmond’s speech when a very substantial part of the crowd left. In fact to my surprise a lot of people did the march then turned round at the top of the hill and went away
    I note the organisers’ counters got around 20,000

  67. Macart says:

    @Rev
     
    Considering the lack of coverage by our esteemed media maybe the next march should be held in London? Of course that’s a stupid suggestion for any number of reasons, but the buggers certainly wouldn’t ignore that. Frankly the lack of coverage by the press has been appalling. They seem bound and determined to deny even the existence of such popular support for independence.

  68. ` says:

    Stu,sorry about the O/T being so quick, not meant to be rude. Also note I said the article was EXCELLENT AS USUAL.
    Thought it was important and relevant to the cause,anyway I am happy you are in a good mood !!

  69. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There were at least three times as many people visible on the hill”

    Here’s my VERY crude attempt to superimpose last year’s pic, rotated and shrunk to the same scale, onto this year.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/2013rallyb.jpg

    I think three times is pushing it a bit.

  70. Morag says:

    Well, that would give you just under 19K, which is closer to my assessment than to 25,000.
     
    I was referring to the revised police estimate which was reported by various parties, though not by the BBC so maybe that means it’s just fantasy (that was a joke….).  It was widely announced that the police had stated later in the day that 20,000 attended.
     
    I honestly don’t know the answer to this, but I saw the numbers last year and I saw the crowd this year, and the difference was around a factor of three.

  71. Ruby Tuesday says:

    Jeannie
     
    It’s impressive that the photograph was taken on a mobile phone.   I thought it was done by a professional.   Very well done to whoever took that photograph.  
     
    Panorama joiner next time? 
     
    You can just ignore me I’m very demanding and hyper-critical about everyone’s photography except my own of course!

  72. Bill C says:

    Firstly sincere congratulations to the organisers Jeff Duncan and Anne McMillan and I suspect dozens more I do not know the names of, you all did a fantastic job considering you basically did it all yourselves without any real backup from the political parties and YES Scotland.  However I agree with the Rev there were a few hiccups. Venue, access, toilets etc.,etc.

    Apparently next year it will all happen on the 30th August next year – a sensible date in my opinion. As a Glaswegian, I appreciate what folk are saying about Glasgow being the venue, however I really think it has to be Edinburgh i.e. The Meadows.  I also think that Stu is right, time for YES Scotland, the SNP and the others to take a gamble and back the event officially. We really need much more publicity and advertising of the day and what it is all about.  We need a crowd of 50,000 plus and we will not get that unless we get official backing and much more publicity.

  73. Morag says:

    Sorry, cross-posting.  ALthough the crowd was close-packed at the front last year, it was thinner at the back.  This year, you couldn’t move between the stage and the monument.  I think this is basically a sterile discussion, but the numbers were overwhelmingly different.  And I thought last year was a crowd!

  74. Albert Herring says:

    Regarding the quiet nature of the march, I think it was entirely appropriate. We were not there to protest about anything, but to show our support for our nation’s independence in a calm, peaceful and dignified way.

  75. Keef says:

    Hey Stu just picked up friends kids from airport (20 year olds) they are down here for a backpacking holiday. They mentioned a friend had posted a clip about a young school kid at a live debate (young Saffron) on FB. He then said it came from a site called ‘wings for Scotland’. I corrected him and gave him a brief summary of your work. 
    Seems your site is about to go viral with the young ones Back in Glasgow. Perhaps a few more ‘youth friendly’ posts will encourage more to visit?
     

  76. Ed says:

    “From where we were standing, if anything the opposite was true. The first couple of speeches in particular were all but inaudible.”

    Then it was certainly about coverage rather than volume – there was more than enough wattage.

    Blasting one section of the crowd into deafness to compensate for pointing your loudspeakers in the wrong directions does nothing good for the atmosphere.

    Totally agree about the website. It proclaimed attractions for kids but even now it still says “details to follow“.

  77. Jeannie says:

    @Ruby Tuesday
     
    He doesn’t know much about photography- just chanced it.  By the way, did you see that photograph taken by one of the Catalans – it’s amazing.  Looks almost grey with people with saltires on the hill in front of the monument.  If only somebody would make a poster out of it.  I’d definitely frame it and put it up in my house.  Stewart Bremner, are you listening? Or anybody else out there?

  78. Morag says:

    There were leaflets, but I don’t think the distribution was very effective.  Of course, what was needed was mainstream media presence.  It’s probably impossible to get advance notice of such an event published as news nowadays, but newspaper adverts really need to be thought about.  The trouble is, of course they are expensive.
     
    In 1992, I attended a small rally on Calton Hill that was held about 10 days after the general election, because the fact that it was planned was mentioned at the end of articles in the Herald reporting the Conservative win and the Scottish disappointment with that outcome.  (I was in England for the actual election, and didn’t get home till after the spontaneous Scotland United rally had come and gone.)
     
    They just don’t do that now.  I don’t know if it’s deliberate Yes-stifling, or if they’d blank the news of any upcoming No rally the same way.  The internet makes a diference of course, but not enough, as you really have to be interested already before you seek out the information.

  79. kininvie says:

    Jeannie, Ruby:
     
    Here’s the photograph by the Catalan lady if you can’t find it elsewhere:
     
    https://twitter.com/La_Nefer/status/381388620436754432/photo/1

  80. First time poster but I have been reading for a while many thanks.  Just a few things, in our group YES Pentlands, we had 2 pipers piping us along the route.  The fact that nobody else here heard then tells me that the march was very long as the pipes carry a long way.  They were both encouraged to join the band at the front but chose to stay with us and the atmosphere while they played was amazing.  Secondly, I thought the speeches very inspiring which shows it’s all subjective.  Thirdly I think the organiser Jeff had people counting at the gate and they got 20,000 as far as i have heard.  Would be good to get this confirmed.

  81. Jeannie says:

    @Morag
     
    Was that the Democracy for Scotland rally?  I was at Scotland United but I was also at another one, which was much smaller and we all took a stone and started off the cairn that you now see near the top of the hill.  Saturday was the first time I’d seen the cairn completed and I was really proud because my sons were just wee and they marched and each of them put their stone on.  I’ve still got my badge from that day.  I just couldn’t remember when it was.  Maybe our paths have crossed before, after all.

  82. Gillie says:

    Here is an interesting table from the Scottish Government’s “Pensions in an Independent Scotland”.
     
    Table 2.1: Social Protection Spending as a Share of GDP 
    Year: 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12
    Scotland: 12.4% 13.2% 15.0% 14.5% 14.4%
    UK: 13.2% 14.4% 15.9% 15.7% 15.9%
     
    http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0043/00434502.pdf
     
    When you consider also that Scotland accounted for 9.9 per cent of UK tax revenue, while receiving just 9.3 per cent of UK public spending, it goes to show that claims that Scotland cannot afford decent pensions is completely unfounded. 

  83. Jeannie says:

    @Kininvie
     
    Yes – that’s the one.  Thanks for that.  I think it’s amazing.  Would we need the lady’s permission to turn it into a poster? Or just a courteous word?  I think it would be a really good fundraiser.

  84. Morag says:

    Was that the Democracy for Scotland rally?
     
    Maybe.  It was intended to be a “hands around the parliament” and centred on the old Royal High School.  I don’t remember stones, but it’s possible.  I believe we got about two and a half times round the outer fence of the building, in the end.  A few hundred people.  How different from Saturday!
     
    I went with my mother, and there were all sorts of people there – tweedy ladies with Labradors, and a guy who looked a bit suspect whom I tried to keep my Mum from joining hands with, but she over-ruled me, made us swap places, and announced that he was really interesting to talk to!
     
    We’ve come a long way since then.

  85. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Stuart,
    I understand your reservation regarding funds, but how’s about creating a one off ‘Marketing Fund’ that would enable us to secure a fold up tent, banners , flags duly emblazoned with the WoS Corporate logo that can be shared with the crew whenever there’s a YES Scotland or Better no think about event ? You could also get Greg to commission a cartoon or twa ?   10 grand would secure as much promo material as would be required ( as well as some of these shiney things that make everything better ) it would also help fund your travels to specific events if you were minded to do so ?
     
    Oh aye, an a new flagpole, superslim like a fishin rod.

  86. Morag says:

    Hmmm, it’s not just the money (which we seem to be rather good at raising), but the organisation to get the gear deployed.  I wonder….

  87. Elizabeth says:

    On the hill he lad in front of us had what looked like light-weight telescopic flagpole. It had three sections – not sure what height it was but his flag was soaring above everything round about.   

  88. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    A rather poignant moment occurred in my day when I was sitting on the grassy bank about 100yds to the right of where Rev Stu plus Jeannie and others were standing. Margo McDonald was trying to make her way down the steep path assisted by stewards and I guess some family members.

    She stopped right in front of me and we exchanged a nod, a wink and a smile. I thought to myself this lady has got *****. I wish I could have helped her but that would have been overload, and there were enough folk with radios and phones. This was not the moment for photos, autographs or banal chat, it was a moment of pride to watch her determination. I hope that ComCab pooped themselves when she called them……I heard it…..’This is Margo MacDonald, where are YOU?’

    My point is this, reinforced by the inability of even Margo’s taxi to negiotate the hill, that a level playing field would be more than welcome for next year.

  89. Morag says:

    The fact that nobody else here heard then tells me that the march was very long as the pipes carry a long way.
     
    I think that’s an important point.  I remember last year trying to start near the front because I enjoy pipe music and wanted to hear the pipers.  I wasn’t that close, but I could always hear them.  This time again I’d have said we were quite close to the start, but after the first five minues or so they were out of earshot.
     
    It must be a horrendous logistical nightmare to organise something like this, and I can only commend the organisers for what they managed to pull off.  They had all the speakers and the big screens and the marshalling and all the permissions and so on – there were deficiencies round the edges and I was kind of glad I’d done what my mother always told me to do and gone to the loo before I left the house, but it was still an amazing effort.

  90. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Totally agree about the website. It proclaimed attractions for kids but even now it still says “details to follow“. “

    Okay, starting from there (because the main site is now just a single front page), can someone tell me where it says you could take out a stall, or where the assembly map can be located?

  91. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Elizabeth,
     
    I ken what you mean,  The Rev had his Flag pinned to the end of a fully mature Canadian Redwood.

  92. Helpmaboab says:

    If “The Gathering” is to be repeated at some point can I suggest that you use a much larger flag to increase your visibility?
    Or perhaps even a two-man banner in the old trade-union style?
    This would peobably reduce the number of people getting lost.

  93. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “ALthough the crowd was close-packed at the front last year, it was thinner at the back. This year, you couldn’t move between the stage and the monument. I think this is basically a sterile discussion, but the numbers were overwhelmingly different.”

    You could be right. Our own Melissa was stewarding and is very adamant about 20K, and I have no reason to doubt either her honesty or competence. All I can do is make my own guess based on what I saw myself and the pictorial evidence. I have no expertise at crowd-counting, but I just can’t see 20,000 people on that hill.

    This is the best picture I can get of a verifiable crowd of 20,000:

    I’m a bit surprised nobody was designated to stand in one spot and film the whole thing going past, and indeed that there doesn’t appear to be any “official” video at all. The whole of Scotland and we couldn’t rope in one independence supporter with a video camera?

  94. tartanfever says:

    Rev  (and Melissa )
    Just reading your twitter conversation about Holyrood.

    Yes, the park is now in the care of the Historic Scotland, but it’s status as a Royal Park remains, which is why you don’t get all the road signs etc that you would see on a normal road. It’s also restricts ‘business’ vehicles using the road and so on.

    There’s no political stuff allowed in Royal Parks I’m afraid, Historic Scotland wouldn’t agree to it anyway.

    Other things can happen  – fun runs and the like, just not political gatherings.

  95. Norrie says:

    Don’t know if money was an issue but do know the licence was paid for the friday before the march, information from an Edinburgh councilor. Leith Links is another venue, kids play park and a couple of 40 foot hillocks for staging.problem would be the march would not get as much visability in the centre. Once upon a time hosted the May day rallies which were huge.

  96. Edulis says:

    When it comes to September 2014, and if the polls are close we will need to be thinking in terms of at least 50,000 if not 100,000. That rules out any indoor location. I say this because there will be a bit of frustration on the independistas part that the MSM are not supportive. Even those of us not inclined to march will want to show our complete exasperation that they are not taking any notice.

    Edinburgh is obviously the best city location as the capital but not necessarily the best in terms of a central venue. What about Perth with the huge expanse of the South Inch.

    Also, when estimating numbers on Saturday, I haven’t heard anybody say that the crowds lining the streets would be significantly supporters and should be part of the total.

  97. Emma says:

    I felt that last year’s march was quiet too. Perhaps if Wings marchers are organising ourselves a bit better next time we could arrange our own musical accompaniment via crowd funding or do any of us or our friends/family have any musical ability that could be put to good use?? We lost contact with the main Wings group quite early on during the march and found ourselves almost running down a sparsely populated North Bridge trying to catch up with folk we knew… think the route choice meant that bottlenecks and gaps emerged.
     
    I liked a lot of the speakers but perhaps there were too many. As next year’s march is being billed as ‘the big one’ I hope some stardust will be added in the form of well known musicians and bands. That would greatly boost the attendee numbers too. Surely the Yes campaign can help rope in a few big names!
     
    What Jeff and Anne have done is tremendous and they should be recognised as true heroes within the indy movement. Lets help them stage a fantastic event next year by promoting it as much as we can. I donated to the fundraising of it this time round and will do so again for next time. Hopefully they will let us all know if there’s anything else we can do. 

  98. David McEwan Hill says:

    Points made and taken but perhaps a little harsh. We are talking about volunteers probably overwhelmed by something they started on their own initiative which has got much bigger than they could have anticipated.
    August 30th next year it is and we’ll be there. I still don’t understand why some people are flunking a show of strength in Glasgow in the Spring

  99. kininvie says:

    Jeannie:
    Sent her a twitter request re photo & poster. No reply yet.

  100. Elizabeth says:

    Kendo… it’s amazin’ how heavy a flag can get after a wee while and, attached to the Rev’s broom handle it must have felt like carrying a caber! :)

  101. tornface says:

    I remember being at political rallies in Queens Park in the eighties, I was thinking it was  support for Miners, but maybe it was May Day?

  102. HenBroon says:

    Just to add my voice to the praise for Jeff and Anne who have done a great job. I know what is involved in getting these events of the ground, it is a lot. Jeff and Anne deserve all the accolades that come their way. To have done this twice in 12 months with another coming up is a phenomenal achievement that even the most organised and sorted events companies would struggle with, and they would have access to many more staff and facilities. Given that the organisations they have to deal with will have a default objection to Scottish independence it is even more remarkable. Calton Hill was chosen for it’s symbolic and historical message, and as we all now know was not ideal, but it was done with the very best intentions. Lessons will be learned.
     
    The next one should be taken to the West right in to the heart of the Unionists stronghold of Glasgow. Glasgow green is a perfect venue, flat large and easy to get to in the middle of the largest conurbation of people in Scotland, and the very people we need to get out and vote YES. If we cannot win Glasgow we are lost. The initial rendesvous  can be on the green, then take the march from there round Georges Square back to the green, and those that cannot march can be left there for the return entertained by what ever events can be organised. I say if we do that 100,000 is within our grasp. The BBC will still ignore it but that will also highlight their biased negative anti Scottish imperialism. We could even take the march down the Clyde side over the bridges and round the square at Pacific Quay and back, kind of difficult to ignore if we go right past their windows.
     
    Incidentally I was interviewed by BBC Scotland on the top of the hill, on camera,  as were several others, not one hint of these interviews were broadcast.
     
    Please lets go for Glasgow.

  103. kendomacaroonbar says:

    If we are going hell for leather on this, why not  think BIG…let’s sponsor a gig ?  I mean, realistically if anyone has contact with some indy minded bands that could pull in a draw, why not ?
     

  104. Ruby Tuesday says:

    kininvie & Jeannie
     
    Thanks for link to photo taken by Catalan lady.  
     
    Do you fancy doing something similar with one of your own photographs?    
    Gimp is a worth looking at.   Gimp is like Photoshop but it’s totally free which is amazing as Photoshop costs about £500. 
     
    http://www.gimp.org/features/
     
    Scroll down and see Chanel Mixer before and after. 

  105. Keith Gilchrist says:

    I agree with most of what you say here and I implore the organisers to do a lot better next year. I think with good organisation, pre-planning and fundraising, they could (and should) stage a much more vibrant and diverse rally for 100,000 people. We need to make our mark and next year is the big one – make it count or regret it forever.

  106. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I ken what you mean, The Rev had his Flag pinned to the end of a fully mature Canadian Redwood.”

    That’s all my fault. I had to have the flag sent up to my parents’ house to make sure it arrived in time, so I hadn’t seen it until I got home and didn’t know whether it’d be heavy or not. So I asked my dad to get me a good solid flagpole that wouldn’t snap or bend double under the weight or in a stiff breeze, and being a highly reliable dad he did just that.

    Having never waved a flag on a march before, I had no idea what an appropriate length or size was, so I said six feet, which sounds plenty when you think it’s already going to be at arm’s length, but with the hindsight of experience (and being a bit of a shortarse) I should have asked for something a bit longer.

    (The problem wasn’t so much that it wasn’t visible, but that with little wind it tended to hang down and get in people’s faces, so I couldn’t wave it too much out of politeness. The reason some folk didn’t see it was because it wasn’t being flown at all for a fair bit of the time, not because it wasn’t high enough.)

    Will know next time.

  107. Morag says:

    Perhaps if Wings marchers are organising ourselves a bit better next time we could arrange our own musical accompaniment via crowd funding or do any of us or our friends/family have any musical ability that could be put to good use??
     
    I thought of bringing a descant recorder, ‘cos I can play Scottish stuff like Freedom Come All Ye, but I doubt if that would have penetrated a yard!  Or impressed anyone at all.

  108. Morag says:

    Having never waved a flag on a march before, I had no idea what an appropriate length or size was
     
    I made a similar mistake with a placard I made for the London SNP to take to a march.  Two actually.  I got a couple of cork pinboards and asked a local joiner to fit handles on them.  They were sturdy, I’ll say that!  When I saw other people with bits of cardboard and garden canes, I realised how naive I had been!

  109. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Points made and taken but perhaps a little harsh. We are talking about volunteers probably overwhelmed by something they started on their own initiative which has got much bigger than they could have anticipated.”

    Aye, precisely why it ought to have been taken onboard the official Yes campaign. Why wasn’t it? (Rhetorical question, not asking you personally.)

  110. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “I liked a lot of the speakers but perhaps there were too many. As next year’s march is being billed as ‘the big one’ I hope some stardust will be added in the form of well known musicians and bands.”

    Yeah. Maybe they’re away on tour right now or something, but the Proclaimers giving us a couple of tunes would be a lot more use than sending a video message.

  111. Jim Sinclair says:

    We shouldn’t say Scottish broadcasters ignored the march and rally just because the BBC and STV did.  I saw Real Radio interviewing Nicola and others before the march set off.
    Because I had seen this I listened to the station as we marched to Calton Hill.  Not only did they report the event, they also gave the attendance figure as around 20,000.  This was at the time the BBC were putting out the original police figure of 8,300.

  112. naebd says:

    Totally agree on the make-some-noise front.
    Admittedly, I’m a right diffident cringer, but couldn’t bring myself to join in singing of Flower of Scotland, initiated by a weirdy-beardy in a hawaiian shirt, or the DA-DA-DADADA-DADADADA-SCOATLIN footie style chant that somebody else tried to instigate. There has to be another way. I say there must be something better than singing national anthems, or doing footie chants. A slogan of some kind.

    Just remembered a kilted old-timer on the sidelines dunting his bodhran as we went past – quite funereal.

  113. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

    Good article and analysis.
     
    Thought that there could have been better advance publicity.
     
    Note* Will do more myself next one on this issue.
     
    Think that Police Scotland were not the only ones surprised by the numbers hence the lack of lavies.
     
    I have been to Beltane events on the hill with fewer people, the negative under reporting of this event by the beeb will only serve to further undermine their credibility and value. Sky are going to be able to buy them for not very much money.
     
    This was a great day, in fact the best rally I have ever been to, tremendous atmosphere, I feel inspired.
     
    The strangest bit was my wee buddy trying to find you on the hill, she asked lots of folks who were somehow able to point us in the right direction.
     
    Wings site is very useful just getting into reading the many great articles and comments.
     

  114. Restlessnative says:

    “did you see that photograph taken by one of the Catalans”
    Me and the good lady are in it! We were sitting down nursing the mother off all hangovers at the time but what a day.My mate came through with his 17 month old daughter,she had a grin a mile wide most of the day,almost like she knew she was amongst her own people and what it meant,but I couldn’t help think that we must get this done for her and her generation’s sake or we’ll rue the day for evermore.
    Prosperity for Scotland and no union

  115. G H Graham says:

    For unofficial crowd gathering, Edinburgh is a poor choice because of its layout/geography. A better option would be the Bridgehaugh Park rugby/football grounds in Stirling with a view up to the castle and the Wallace National Monument.

    Stirling & Bannockburn nearby is after all, the place where Scotland was effectively & militarily unified into a single kingdom.

    I couldn’t be at the march because I was in Charleston, South Carolina selling my fine art prints of Scotland to the locals at the Charleston Scottish Games. A good event, only to be spoiled by the playing of God Save the Queen.

  116. Keith Brodie says:

    Apologies if someone else has mentioned this but Munguin’s Republic is reporting that the “police have now confirmed that the number was around 30,000″. Link

  117. Jeannie says:

    I want a concert!  I want a concert!  Mr. Jeannie was just saying can you imagine what it would have been like up Calton Hill with 20,000 people singing Caledonia.  There wouldn’t have been a dry eye in the house.
     
    If some enterprising person who knew about this kind of thing could set up an indy concert, it would raise funds for the campaign through tickets and merchandising, but also DVDs so people can watch it at home who couldn’t get there or get tickets.  Like my poor wee maw who’s too old to go.  We could have a family/friends party with the DVD on.  If the concert were in an iconic location, we could sell posters.  AND…..we could all meet up again!
     
    Annie Lennox would be magnificent.  So would the Proclaimers.  And Runrig.  And Dougie McLean.  And Deacon Blue.  I’m hoping Admiral Fallow might be pro-indy.  And Amy McDonald. And the Glasgow Gaelic Choir.  And there’s lots of other Scottish bands.  And the Inverary Pipe Band.  And the Vatersay Boys.  And the Chili Pipers.  And Eddie Reader.  And Capercaillie and Manran.  But if it’s a fundraiser, maybe we could also get Kevin Bridges and Frankie Boyle.
     
    That’s just a few off the top of my head – there’s tons more.  I suppose the problem might be they’ll have all their tours and concerts for next year booked up already.  Oh well,   Aye, have a dream.

  118. Ruby Tuesday says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    ‘I’m a bit surprised nobody was designated to stand in one spot and film the whole thing going past,’

    I’ll do that for you next year if you can arrange for the march to start at St Giles just opposite the webcam!  

    You could just record the beginning and end of the march count the number of people in one frame calculate how many frames there would be in the time it took for the march to pass the webcam and multiple.  That would give you a pretty accurate count of the number of participants taking part in the march.  

    Does that make sense?  

    I’m also thinking it might be a good idea to use the webcam to wave a Saltire,YES poster, Wings flag, Empire biscuit or whatever you fancy to the world at the same time as the 1 o’clock gun goes off.    You could make a recording and post it on You Tube for the people who can’t access the webcam at 1o’clock.    You could end up getting loads of hits and have the world watching what’s happening on the 1 o’clock webcam.

    You can perhaps tell I have a hyper-active imagination.  

    What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam?   

  119. ewen says:

    Rev, You can get telescopic flagpoles in most camping shops 3m to 5m long. I’ve got one for outside my tent. I fly a Saltire and the wife’s lithuanian tricolour. I’ll be bringing mine next year.

  120. Jeannie says:

    @Ruby Tuesday
     
    What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam? 
     
    Hostage to fortune or what?  LOL

  121. Sugarelly Watters says:

    Pipe bands will be like hens’ teeth on 30th August 2014 – it’s Cowal Games

  122. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “But if it’s a fundraiser, maybe we could also get Kevin Bridges and Frankie Boyle.”

    Christ, people have fainting fits over ME, imagine if they got Frankie in :D

  123. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “For unofficial crowd gathering, Edinburgh is a poor choice”

    I keep thinking that Princes St Gardens – but NOT the Ross Bandstand, just an open area – would have some possibilities. But I can’t remember the exact layout.

  124. Harry Shanks says:

    The idea of a big concert sounds good but just remember how the media helped rob Kinnock of victory when Labour did the same at Sheffield in 1992.

    The media took the opportunity to portray the event as complacent triumphalism, the Election was lost a week later, and the Tories returned in a major shock.

    Labour and Kinnock now argue that their lead in the polls was lost by the time of the rally – but we will never know for sure.

    Just imagine what the BBC could do – that’s all.

  125. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam?”

    You askin’?

    :D

  126. Desimond says:

    The Proclaimers apologised on their video message and did promise that they will be there next year.
    Thought Eddi Reader was a bit of a pain in the arse to be honest.
    in respect to audio and video…any podcast\presentations in the planning Rev or you leaving that to others?

  127. heraldnomore says:

    From the front row at The Albanach the pipers marched.  But we were held as the press pack, the overseas one that is, wanted photos of the VIPs.  This was when the flag was borrowed for Nicola and Aamer.  So the band marched away, and were quickly turning the corner as we began to move.  They waited for a bit.
     
    Before then a charming young wpc, when the street was still quiet and the Norwegians were doing there their interviews and photographs, confirmed that the police had planned for a crowd of 10-15k.
     
    Later we were held for an age at the Royal High gates, a police van across the road up to the hill as the chopper lingered above.  My impression at the time was that they were seriously concerned about the numbers and thinking what Plan B may have been.
     
    In time we were let loose on the hill.  But Nicola announced that we were the lucky ones, for others at the end of the march were denied access. 
     
    From in front of the stage it was extremely loud and conversation impossible.  It was the next morning before my ageing lugs recovered.  I didn’t see the loos until I was leaving some time after 4.00, but then I hadn’t needed, having remained outside the pub at 10.00….
     
    It was brilliant, and we can improve again next year.
     
    Finally has anyone come across footage of Alan Bissett available yet?

  128. david says:

    im plannin on winning the lottrrey next year, when i do i shall buy a big estate and invite the rally to my place, will put on a bbq for half a million , just to be on the safe side

  129. Ruby Tuesday says:

    What about a Wings helium balloon flag?   They don’t weigh much!!!
     
    http://www.chickenshop.co.uk/images/P/2300201.jpg

  130. Roboscot says:

    More than anything else, some way needs to be found of counting the numbers taking part that the media can’t distort.

  131. david says:

    “media cant distort”. good luck with that one

  132. Sheena says:

    I’d just like to add my thanks to the organisers as well. What a huge amount of work, getting permission, booking bands and speakers, organising PA system, big screens, leaflets, publicity etc. For two people to do all this mostly by themselves is truly astounding and without their drive and passion it would never have happened at all. We owe them huge gratitude and we all need to bring along extra people next year to make it even bigger and better. They can only do so much.

  133. Ruby Tuesday says:

     
    Rev. Stuart Campbell 
     
    You dancin’?
     
    A wee jig with your Wings flag helium balloon tied to your sporran would be excellent.
    There’s a musician there at the moment.  You could perhaps get him to play something a bit livelier for you.  Anything has got to be better than handing out leaflets that most people put straight into the bucket.
     
    http://www.camvista.com/scotland/edinburgh/royalmile.php
     

  134. Kendomacaroonbar says:

    Roboscot
     
    there exists a website that can print off tickets to any event that one wants to hold.  I guess it would count the number of tickets requested which then could give a baseline indication of the actual numbers on the day ?

  135. Ruby Tuesday says:

    I have to go now but I’ll be back to hear all your 1 o’clock webcam idea. 

  136. The Man in the Jar says:

    As for a big name band playing at next years event. I am hoping that something comes out of next years Celtic Connections festival held in Glasgow in January. I saw Eddi Reader at the demo. There must be a strong YES following within the modern traditional music scene.
    As for holding the march / demo in Glasgow I would be all for it but it might just put some folk off. Having said that Weegies do love a party! A march from Anderson to Glasgow Green via Argyle St. and George Square priceless!

  137. Doug Daniel says:

    I reckon those are all fair points, Stu. I was going to suggest to you that next time we have a WOS gathering place before heading to the main march area, since I arrived too late to meet folk at the pub. Still, at least the march hadn’t actually started marching before I even arrived this time!
     
    Definitely more toilets next year. I spent the whole rally in a state of half-needing the toilet – not enough to warrant queuing up, but enough to make me think “a piss would be nice.” (And that’s even with me going before I got to the High Street, before Morag starts!)
     
    From a personal point of view, I’ll make sure to regrow my beard for the next one, since it seems only about three people realised that the bespectacled guy with the spiky hair wearing the light blue Yes fleece was me. And just for you Stu, next time I’ll make sure to introduce myself by my full name, since you apparently know so many bespectacled Aberdonians called Doug :-P
     
    In regards to the speeches, I would have two criticisms. The first is that there was an awful lot of repetition. “No bedroom tax!” seemed to become the equivalent of a band going “how’s it going <INSERT CITY HERE>? This has been the best night on the tour!” in terms of generating applause. It’s obvious the speakers don’t compare notes beforehand to make sure they’re not just retreading old ground.
     
    The second criticism is that, towards the end, it suddenly struck me that most of the speakers this year spoke last year as well. A bit harsh perhaps, because about half the speakers simply have to be at these marches – you need the leaders of the pro-indy parties there, for example. But if I think about the speeches that most moved me, they tended to be folk who didn’t speak last year – Elaine C. Smith, Hardeep Singh Kohli, Carolyn Leckie, Nicola Sturgeon. Of those who spoke last year as well, only Dennis Canavan, Aamer Anwar and Alan Bissett seemed to match or beat last year’s efforts. I felt Margo, Salmond, Harvie and Fox were all better last time, although in Salmond and Harvie’s cases, it was maybe simply because they were amongst the first speakers last time, so this time much of their thunder had been stolen. But as I say, you need them there, if only to avoid giving the press an easy stick to beat the march with (“Harvie shuns march!!!” etc). I wonder also if it was necessary to have Canavan AND Jenkins speaking – I like Blair, but he was never going to be able to match Dennis’ speech.
     
    It feels a bit cruel to single people out, but Mike Danson and Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh were poor. Danson had some interesting figures, but his delivery was terrible for a rally, where you’re meant to make rabble-rousing speeches. It made for a bit of a damp note to end the rally on as no one had any idea when to clap and so on. I wasn’t really sure why Tasmina was there except as another chance for self-publicity – her speech was easily the weakest as it sounded like it had been written by committee, and the delivery had all the conviction you might expect from someone who seems to change parties every few years. It was quite ridiculous to hear the person described in this article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1343298/Defector-to-SNP-is-political-butterfly.html) speak as if they’d been a lifelong member of the SNP. I have no idea why the SNP are so desperate to promote her within the party, especially when you consider some of the people she’s beaten to get to 3rd on the European elections list.

  138. Jeannie says:

    @Harry Shanks
     
    I know what you’re saying, but I think we need something that touches and stirs the heart as well as the head.  And I don’t think a fundraising concert is necessarily triumphalist – at least not in the same way as Johann Lamont was at the weekend when she said she’d be celebrating winning the referendum this time next year.
    By the way, I don’t think Labour lost the election because of the rally – I think they lost it because of Kinnock.  To me, he just wasn’t credible as a UK Prime Minister.  Personally, I’ve no idea what the problem was……I’ve always thought wee, ginger people who talk a lot are mightily attractive, myself :-)

  139. Emma says:

    I’d love a concert too!! But I get the point about triumphalism. Think the festival idea which has been mooted by a few people here would be perfect instead to perhaps counteract that possible accusation? Jeannie has started compiling a list so I’d like The Delgados and Arab Strab to reform, plus Mogwai and Glasvegas. Anyone know if Paolo Nutini supports yes.

  140. Jeannie says:

    @Ruby Tuesday
    A wee jig with your Wings flag helium balloon tied to your sporran would be excellent.
     
    Tied to his what? LOL
     

  141. Restlessnative says:

     “Anyone know if Paolo Nutini supports yes.”
    From a friend I spoke to on Saturday that’ll be an aye,he knows a friend of his and confirmed he’s a supporter.

  142. handclapping says:

    Holyrood may not be available for political events. The referendum on Scotland’s independence is not political and the powers that be should be told so.
    And that BT should also be allowed to use it for a rally :)
     
    Glasgow is much more pro-Yes than Edinburgh. If the object is to drum up support then Glasgow is a better place. More people to come, more people to see it and given the “support” given this one by the media we need to up the body count for greater effect

  143. Jeannie says:

    Yeah, Paolo would be great.

  144. Shinty says:

    Jeannie – I was thinking exactly the same thing for an Indy Concert – we seem to have agreed on the artists too :)

  145. gordoz says:

    It would be a huge mistake not to have lead up rallies in Glasgow, Stirling or Inverness before next year. And we know the British politicos of these cities will try to stifle but we must press on and embarass them into submission. you all saw how the crowds  of bystanders and trourists  reacted (all positive).
    The whole of scotland must be involved in these events and on the doorstep is the way to drum up suppoert. If Pipe Bands per say dont want to contribute then maybe its time to form bands from say Pipers for Independence etc; Christ its their culture that is at risk too! Some Pipers reading this will want to fornt these marches of that Im sure. If things were better organised in advance and advertised bringing in all sorts of artisans then the lead up could be something quite fantastic.

  146. Gill says:

    Back in March of this year this was posted on The March and Rally Facebook page;
     

    21st Sept, 2013 – March and Rally for Scottish Independence – Edinburgh
    31 March

    Did we say we are going to blow you away with the venue for 2014?

    along with this…
    “BIG name already confirmed – with more in pipeline”
    Hopefully all will be revealed soon :-)

  147. Blackford Wheeler says:

    Mad Jock McMad at 1207:     

    There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.
     
    Couldn’t agree more. We’re not in protest mode. We don’t need funereal drum beats either. 
     
    Next year’s event has to be a celebration. How about indy musicians playing upbeat tunes from flat bed trucks in the parade? Imagine the effect on the mood of marchers and bystanders of Craig and Charlie belting out 500 Miles as they glide past.

  148. Daughter of Evil Reindeer says:

    @The Man in the Jar
    Went to a march in Glasgow once which went on for miles, I mean why go around the entire city just once when you can go around twice, think it is a John Maclean thing?
    Our march would just be like the queue to get in, over there… Wait a minute! It ended up that way anyway.

  149. ronnie cowan says:

    Once again Jeff, Anne, Duncan etc have pulled it off. I have my criticisms but honestly folks. Lack of pipers. Jeff has been appealing for pipers, face painters, stewards, first aiders and all sorts of volunteers for months now. Yes Pentland brought their own. I made an executive decision to create a wee gap and delay the march at that point sothd 

  150. Emma says:

    I watched Nicola’s speech again this morning on a video posted on Bella Caledonia. It had me in tears. So powerful and passionate. She didn’t seem to be reading from a script either which impressed me even more. Well worth watching for those who were there and those who weren’t. Hope she speaks next year.
     
    Agree with the Eddi Reader point above. I couldn’t be bothered with some of it. I was near the front for most of the rally and saw what must have been the ‘VIP’ area in front of the stage behind a barrier where some of the performers and hangers-on were gathered. I had an awkward feeling like I used to have at school when you were on the outside, not being one of the cool kids…. It did make me angry through as that space could have been used to give wheelchair users a better view. They had a hard time of it where I was standing, being constantly moved about and probably not getting the greatest of views. Of course a green room type area is required, especially for those needing to rehearse speeches, but it felt a bit ‘them and us’. I didn’t really fancy going to the Bongo Club for that reason.

  151. velofello says:

    My lingering impression is the smiling faces at the rally – as can be seen on the RT video. 
     

  152. muttley79 says:

    @Ed
     
    The sound system was way, way too loud. These sound engineers are often used to concerts, where high volume – which affects the body as well as the ears – is desirable for the power of the performance.
     
    I have to disagree with that.  Last year many people were straining to hear Ruth Wishart’s speech.  She spoke very quietly, and it was virtually impossible to hear what she was saying from a distance.  I remember a guy near me shouting for her to speak up.  If you are naturally softly spoken, then this kind of advice is unhelpful to say the least.  Given that some thought she gave one of the best speeches last year, then the need for a much louder sound system was evident.  This was actually a weakness that was turned into a strength this year imo.
     

  153. kininvie says:

    Jeannie
    Ruby
    & anyone else
    Message from Jennifer: re picture
    Jennifer Munt Lopez ?@La_Nefer 19m
    ” I’m glad that you like it :-) You can use it for whatever you need. No problem. I’m happy to contribute.”
     
    https://twitter.com/La_Nefer/status/381388620436754432/photo/1

  154. naebd says:

    Munguin’s Republic is reporting that the “police have now confirmed that the number was around 30,000?. 
     
    Ah but can we trust anything we hear from Salmond’s personal Republican Guard, the Scottish Police Force?
    /jk

  155. AnneDon says:

    Last year, we marched from the Meadows to Princes St, so I don’t see any reason not to go the other direction next year.
     
    However, we definitely need to get some chants/slogans and some songs for then!  Also agree re pipers – tho’ we had a pipe band last year, I think?
     
    Next year’s Rally will take place on 30th August, apparently, so might clash with Festival events. However, the tourists had a lot of fun taking photos, so I don’t see a problem!  (Especially since they let the EDL march down the High Street in the middle of the Festival this year.)

  156. Ian Anderson says:

    Heraldnomore – here is a youtube of Alan Bissett’s poem
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knOYs0McMlg

  157. Jeannie says:

    @kininvie
     
    Fantastic – well, that’s the first step.  Anybody know what the next one is?

  158. Robyn - Quine fae Torry says:

    The lead singer from Biffy Clyro is a Yes voter.  They would be good for a gig.  I agree about Delgados (have they reformed?).  If not maybe they could just for an indy rally – Emma Pollack’s singing Parcel O’ Rogues is awesome.  Aly Bain is also a confirmed Yes.  A mix of traditional and modern bands would hopefully satisfy everyone. 
     
    Frankie Boyle would be amazing but is not for some and I wouldn’t want him to tone it down.  Shame, as he is a huge indy supporter.  Also interesting article in Courier last week about Mark Thomas fancying living in an independent Scotland, maybe he would be up for addressing an indy rally? 

  159. handclapping says:

    Just to go on about the numbers:- if the Scotsman had managed to sell a copy to everyone there they would have more than doubled their daily sales figure.

  160. heraldnomore says:

    Thanks Ian.  The Law of Sod being what it is I found a link to it on newsnet five minutes later.  But being the Law of Sod I haven’t been able to watch it yet.  Will Rural Broadband speeds be pish in an Independent Scotland?

  161. Desimond says:

    Everyone talking about a large Music gig, You can be sure there will be a massive YES concert if and when we win. Probably in Murrayfield.

    An annoyance on Saturday was when people were making speeches and behind them band members were tuning up…couldnt they have did this during the wee Video segments, it was fair distracting for some of us in the audience, must have been worse for actual speakers only 5 yards away.

    Looking forward to next years YES rally. It will be great to see the mix of Proclaimers, and other acts and hopefully to then end with rendition of “A Mans A Man for a’ that” as that was great on Saturday to see and hear ( despite Eddi Readers ‘exhuberance’ near the end).

    One musical thought I did walk away with on Saturday was “I wonder what our new National Anthem will sound like in years to come?”. Cant wait.

     

  162. Vambomarbeleye says:

    Could all ways get a few accordian bands and not tell them what the gigue is.

  163. Doug Daniel says:

    Desimond – ahh, so it was Eddi Reader that was going over the top towards the end of A Man’s A Man? I had a feeling it might be, but I couldn’t see as the big screen wasn’t showing her at that point.
     
    It would be great to end on that song, especially to do it with music as it was a tiny bit ramshackle (but still gut wrenching all the same). If they could just get Liz Fraser (formerly of Cocteau Twins, and easily the best singer this country has ever produced) to go along and do it, then that would be absolutely mind-blowing.

  164. kendomacaroonbar says:

    See what I started ? I dissapear for an appointment of Death by Powerpoint then come back to a cunning plan for musical excellence ! :-)
    The fact that we; as a collection of essential disparate individuals are discussing this is absolutely brilliant..PEOPLE POWER !   Anybody got the contact details for the Weirs ? :-)

  165. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Eddie R is related to Bugger the Panda BTW…just as an FYI an so’s you know.

  166. James D says:

    Here’s our video of the start of the Rally.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_n7PrPreN0

  167. AllyPally says:

    OT: How do you upload an avatar? I think that’s what those wee pictures are called. There’s just space for Name, email, website.

  168. O/T: Here’s one to ponder and perhaps for any Photoshop Wizzes to have some fun with: Snake Oil & Something for Nothing.

  169. HandandShrimp says:

    There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.
     
    A fair point – every time I go on a march I have a strange compulsion to shout Maggie Maggie Maggie Out Out Out

  170. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ AllyPally – If you go to ‘Off-topic – Quarantine’ link at the top of this page and read my post regarding Avatar to Gravatar its dead easy. Any problems then contact me via this thread.

  171. Neil MacKenzie says:

    Next years event is within the timeframe where spending from both sides is scrutinised. The organisers do a great job and hopefully will have assistance but shouldn’t be looking to the official campaign who will have other plans for their finance.

  172. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ AllyPally – Sorry it got busy in Quarantine but to help you my post Avatar by Gravatar is dated 22nd August.

  173. DonDeefLugs says:

    @Archie. –  heh, we’re cross-posting. Great minds think alike :-) 

  174. Haggistrap says:

    Nothing wrong with Edinburgh, I used to live there, but might there be some merit in using Glasgow (or Stirling) instead. It would be nice to fill Hampden but risky if it was looking empty.
    Murrayfield would be great but more of a challenge to fill. 1.5million turned out in Barcelona (I think) recently, can we not fill one football stadium?

  175. Robert Louis says:

    Well, Saturday, was a great success, and a lot of people, in excess of 20,000 are believed to have been there.  Yahoo!  Not bad for a bunch of volunteers and a ‘Scottish’ media that chooses to ignore them.  So, hats off to the many volunteers who helped with stewarding, delivering publicity leaflets, piping and music, and other great things for the day.
     
    A genuinely momentous achievement, although they could always use more volunteers for next year.
     
    As regards venue, I’m not so sure about Glasgow green, as that’s where better together (u-KOK) hold their annual marches once a year on or around the 12th of July – isn’t it?   Wouldn’t want to copy that.   
     
    Having said that I do think, that maybe a short march from Royal mile via George IV bridge to the meadows in Edinburgh for speeches etc… would be a good option, if it can be used, followed in the evening by a full blown concert of some kind, including the proclaimers and other groups at the Usher hall in the evening or similar?
     
    Anyway, thank you to all those who worked so freaking hard night and day to make it happen on Saturday, Scotland owes you one.  
     
    Slainte.
     
    PS. As an aside, there must now be an awful lot of photos of the Charlie chaplin ‘lookey likey’ mime artist on the Royal Mile, holding a saltire and wearing a YES Scotland badge.
     

  176. Votadini Jeannie says:

    I’ve been scouring Edinburgh via Google Maps (when I should be doing Uni work) and there really isn’t anywhere central with the capacity for a massive crowd other than The Meadows or Holyrood Park.  Calton Hill definitely not to be repeated (not least because no one seemed to get the pronuciation right! COLL – ton, not KAL-ton, don’t forget the glottal stop), despite it’s iconic history. 
     
    The problem with the Meadows is that it’s not all that impressive or historic a route to get there, and it’s uphill from the city centre. Not terribly steep, but it may be a deterrent to some.
     
    I think we might need to write to the Queen direct, remind her of her position thanks to our sufferance, and demand that the real sovereigns get to play in her wee park.
     
    Clandonia are impressive, rousing performers but I don’t know their politics..

  177. AllyPally says:

    Thanks Archie. Now all I have to do is pick a photie.

  178. HandandShrimp says:

    Stu
     
    On flag poles I was well impressed with the lightweight, whatever they were, 15 feet long ones.
     
    On the plus side your flag pole would have been handy had we encountered an enraged Ian Davidson or a zombie that had mistakenly thought we had already voted Yes.

  179. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ DonDeefLugs – Aye indeed, keep takin the herbal infusions :-)

  180. Robert Louis says:

    Just as an aside, as people keep mentioning it.  i think the reason the YES campaign is not directly involved, is because the rally organisers have stated they wish to make it a ‘people’s event’, free of ANY political group.  It is probably a smart move.
     
    http://independencerally.com/main/?page_id=224

  181. cath says:

    “The fact that we; as a collection of essential disparate individuals are discussing this is absolutely brilliant..PEOPLE POWER !”
     
    It is, but we should be wary of too many disparate individuals going their own way on things as it could well dillute the effect. The march and rally works because it’s one set of individuals organising one a year in the run up. So it’s best there aren’t 20 groups duplicating that, but all of us pulling together to make sure the ones that are happening are the best success they can be.
     
    I know up in Inverness there’s someone organising RockYes concerts, and I’m pretty sure National Collective will already have a lot of ideas and plans regarding how to use artists that are pro-yes – if artists are involved at all with the campaign, or want to be, that’s where they’ll go. So may be best to get involved with your local groups, find out what’s already being vaguely planned and help out with that if you’re able to. Then make suggestions to them if there aren’t things being planned locally or there are gaps.

  182. The March for Independence
    Music in the Meadows
     
    A full blown festival type event would be superb!  Speeches in between musical acts. Comedians.  Poets.  It would be an amazing day.  Although I’d imagine that would be ridiculously difficult to set-up.

  183. Doug Daniel says:

    kendo – “Eddie R is related to Bugger the Panda BTW…just as an FYI an so’s you know.”
     
    I would just like to state for the record, so that I don’t receive any buggerings from angry pandas, that I think Eddi is fantastic, and I have her album of Burns songs. I especially love how enthusiastic she is about independence on Twitter.
     
    (But these international superstars do have a habit of trying to be the centre of attention during group singing :-P)

  184. muttley79 says:

    @Doug Daniel
    I did not think Carolyn Leckie, Margo MacDonald were that good.  I feel with Margo MacDonald that it is more for sentimental reasons that she is chosen.  She does tend to say the same things as well.  Leckie was sincere and passionate enough, but I privately winced to myself whenever she said ‘wummin’ instead of women.  I fear that the Yes campaign might need more cerebral, middle of the road female Yes supporters to connect with middle class women voters for instance.  I am not convinced at all that Elaine S. Smith, Kate Higgins, Leckie, Kane etc can do this.  I did not hear Blair Jenkins’ speech, but I afraid to say that he is not convincing as a speaker, at least for that kind of a rally.  I am not sure about Colin Fox either (similar to Jenkins).  Whoever said it was a mistake just to have mostly politicos made a great point.  Anwar has been good.  I think we need to include more people from outside the political Yes Scotland bubble.  Alan Grogan continues to impress me, this year’s speech was excellent I thought.  Thought Salmond was a bit flat, as was Harvie.  I thought Sturgeon’s speech was the best.  Canavan was again good.  Alan Bissett was terrific, a really funny, but hard hitting contribution at the same time.      
     
    In regards Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh: if I was high up in the SNP I would be concerned about her influence.  I think I read that she has the support of Sturgeon.  A close relative of mine is an SNP member, and I read the candidates’ pitch for the European elections in the SNP mailing list thing a few weeks ago.  It was pretty obvious that John Swinney is not a fan, as he backed a long standing SNP member for selection as candidate.  Swinney made specific mention of his long standing activist background.  I think it was a swipe at Ahmed-Sheikh.  She has risen far in the SNP after only a few years.  I have no idea what she is like, but the warning signs are there that she is a careerist imo.  I hope the SNP are not putting style before substance.

  185. alexicon says:

    Jeaniie, The lead singer of Runrig is/was, or tried to be, a Labour politician.
    I do agree that a concert should be held, maybe late, afternoon?, maybe it will attract a lot of don’t knows and no’s who can get the message.
    Please stop with the conspiracy theories, we know it happens and you can take some comfort, as I do, that if you were there, you know the correct [approx.] figure of attendance and that the establishment, be it the Police, council or the pro unionist press are lying.
    Now you know for a fact that they’re lying and more importantly we had a few undecided voters on our bus who now know they’re lying. 
    The job we have to do is to inform each and everyone of the don’t knows and maybe no’s that they’re being misinformed by the pro unionist press and to also inform them of the benefits of Independence.
    Let’s make it clear, we’re not going to get help, or an impartiality from our press, so get over it and move on to work harder for a YES vote.
    Boots on the ground and information will do our work not our press.

  186. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Don’t worry Doug, the Death Stare contract has been recalled ! :-)

  187. Chic McGregor says:

    Very disappointed not to meet any new wingers.  We got to the Albanach at about 11:30 but no flag and didn’t recognise anyone, so we just marched with the Kirriemuir SNP branch.  Did meet a few wingers I already knew like Gav and Clydebuilt but couldn’t see the flag at the rally. (Hope they recognised my banner rather than me since I have lost over 4 stone since last year  :) )
     
    Not so bothered about the badge cos like I said previously, in my spare time I’m working on a personal 3D version.  Unfortunately I have been busy sculpting other things, but hope to get it finished before we go off for another holiday in Germany in a couple of weeks. 
     
    Re general march comments.
     
    I estimated the crowd on the hill to be between 15,000 and 25000.  Couldn’t be any more accurate than that because of the dreadful topography.   For example the main stand available area was small which means that the crowd there were bunched up to old derby day football terracing levels, I’d say approx twice the packing density in that section as existed for last year’s at the Ross pavilion.  If it were in a normal park type venue the crowd would have been more uniformly spread and covered a much larger area.
    BTW, I think the venue choice was a predictable, indeed predicted, mistake and not just from the crowd estimating POV but also simply in terms of the crowd being able to see the stage.  Even a smooth conical hill would have been a bad choice from that perspective.  If anything a ‘natural amphitheater’ with the stage lower than the audience makes more sense.
     
    I know Calton Hill is the lefties’ favoured venue but hey, that’s their call.
     
    A park would be better. Leith Links?
     
    Last year’s march two guys with clickers in Prince’s St Gardens got 9,500 within a couple of hundred from each other and that didn’t include families with buggies or folk in wheelchairs etc who were directed round to the ramp gate near the pavilion or, of course, those who left at the park entrance rather than stay for the speeches.  Another unofficial guy with a clicker up on the Mound got about 12,000.  My estimate using the pic from the esplanade (I counted 31 X 31 heads, called that area a thousand and extrapolated it, allowing a little for perspective, gave about 9000). There was a film made at the gate if someone can be bothered counting.   There is a very speeded up fun version where it is condensed to 3 minutes, if someone is a very fast counter: 

     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3gSppKvmZY
     
    We went through about 2:09.
     
    I think the Rev. and someone from NNS should have had a slot, of course they should, but the egos which pull the strings have deluded themselves into thinking their ultra PC polite approach is wot will win it.  How they can think that when they have presided over a fall in support for independence from around the mid 50%’s (c 2007) to about 40% – well, that’s the power of self deception for you.
     
    In 2003 the SNP were on a sack cloth and ashes draped internalised blame binge – many thought they might drop independence all together, it was the die hard pro-indy faction. – proto cybernats, if you like, who reinvigorated the call for independence with rallies and so forth.  But that doesn’t fit in with the script, does it?
     
    OK, I understand the difficulties faced by the career politician, the political kettling capability of a hostile, corrupt unionist coalition and the collusion of a politically cleansed MSM, but, IMO, they need to get much more aggressive, now and not when it looks like desperation.
     
    Back to the rally.  IMV there needs to be a much bigger team of organisers for next year with a clear milestone roadmap and division of responsibilities to groups with the relevant expertise in each field.  It needs to be massive.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     

  188. Robert Louis says:

    Chic,
     
    You know Leith links isn’t such a bad suggestion, and the march could assemble at regent terrace (huge area) and walk down Leith walk or easter road.  Downhill ALL the way, and no steps.

  189. Robert Louis says:

    cath,
     
    You make a very good point.  It is important that it is a unified event, and there is not too much of separate groups doing their ‘own thing’.  Well said.

  190. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ AllyPally – Just remember that at any time you can go back to your newly opened Gravatar account and add any other suitable photo. I changed mine recently to a budgie hating Irish unicycler but it had no response so I reverted to type. :-(

  191. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Looks like DF Concerts have experience of Leith Links.
    http://www.dfconcertsandevents.com/#/concerts
    Now, for the avoidance of doubt, is this a WoS initiative ? or are we hoping that the YES Scotland team pick this up ?   Kendo says “I think Wecando”   …why not, If we can run a country we can surely run a Concert :-) ??

  192. alexicon says:

    Sorry, but having the main rally in Stirling or Leith would be exactly what the unionist wanted.
    Out of sight out of mind.
    The full length of Princess street is where YES rallies should be.
    I have no doubt a rally in Glasgow, 1 or 2 months before hand, would also work wonders.
    You couldn’t get more ‘high profile’.

  193. Jim says:

    We’re all going to need to again double if not treble the number of people we bring to the march next year. Maybe those that can afford to run free buses and rely on donations should do so which would allow those that want to attend but cant due to not having the fare.
    I would also like to see Yessers in the central belt turn over a spare bedroom to those that want to attend but cant afford accommodation on top of their fare! We have a very comfortable spare room!
    I have a website which I would happily organise the latter through although I think in this case big is best and more trusted.
    Suggestions and advice welcome.

  194. Doug Daniel says:

    muttley79 – yeah, I saw an official-looking photo of some of the more weel-kent marchers, and TAS was hanging about beside Nicola, so I suspect she’s wormed her way into the good books there. I can’t help feeling her rise has at least something to do with the fact she’s both female and non-white, thus making her an attractive candidate for any political party. But the first time I saw her speaking publicly, at the 2012 Spring SNP conference, she was genuinely the most lacklustre speaker of the whole weekend (that I saw, anyway). I mean, maybe we’re wrong and she’s great, but she certainly does scream all the warning signs of a careerist, and her selection as 3rd on the SNP’s Euro election list has actually made me seriously consider voting for the Greens next year instead, even though the SNP are in a far better position for taking the Lib Dems’ almost-certain-to-be-vacated seat.

  195. Desimond says:

    After reading about TAS doing almost as many flips  as Alastair Darling I now dont feel so bad about finding myself ignoring her speech on Saturday.
    It was the epitome of Blah Blah Blah.

  196. muttley79 says:

    @Chic McGregor
     
     
    I think the Rev. and someone from NNS should have had a slot, of course they should, but the egos which pull the strings have deluded themselves into thinking their ultra PC polite approach is wot will win it.  How they can think that when they have presided over a fall in support for independence from around the mid 50%’s (c 2007) to about 40% – well, that’s the power of self deception for you.

     
    The difference is though that in 2007 the SNP were only able to form a minority administration at Holyrood.  A majority and hence a referendum looked a long way off.  Therefore, the high polls for independence could be read as an aspiration, rather than as a realistic development in the short term.  By 2011 we knew the referendum was going to take place.  As SS has said voters in Scotland got a little worried for a time.  Since then we have had sustained hostility form the MSM in Scotland, as well as the Unionist parties here.  We have also had the Jubilee and the Olympics.   

    In 2003 the SNP were on a sack cloth and ashes draped internalised blame binge – many thought they might drop independence all together, it was the die hard pro-indy faction. – proto cybernats, if you like, who reinvigorated the call for independence with rallies and so forth.  But that doesn’t fit in with the script, does it?
     

    No offense, but I think Salmond’s return as SNP leader was much more important than rallies and die hard indy factions were at that time in getting the nation to this point.

     
    OK, I understand the difficulties faced by the career politician, the political kettling capability of a hostile, corrupt unionist coalition and the collusion of a politically cleansed MSM, but, IMO, they need to get much more aggressive, now and not when it looks like desperation.
     
    I sympathise with this view to an extent.  However, if the Yes campaign does get aggressive at this point I am not sure what purpose it would serve.  The media will not get anymore sympathetic anyway.  Also, I suspect most voters in Scotland will only really pay attention from the publication of the White Paper onwards.  Even then, there will be a significant number of voters who will probably only really focus on the referendum during the official campaigning period next year. 
     

  197. naebd says:

    I think the reason the YES campaign is not directly involved, is because the rally organisers have stated they wish to make it a ‘people’s event’, free of ANY political group.

    This, I think, is absolute mince.

    A Yes Rally needing or wanting to distance itself from the Yes Campaign?

    The blooming Yes campaign (and various SNP folk) spoke at the Rally! :-D

    No, I think it’s just that Yes is not renowned for having the slickest, most seamless organizational skills (don’t want to snipe but I think we can agree on that. Personally I hope to god they get their act together at some point).

  198. Gallowglass says:

    Stuart, would you have any objections to readers producing WoS flags?
    if you are hapoy with that could you release the image ot tell us what cplour the background was?
    It looked very cool and would love to have one for next year.
     
    Gallowglass
     
     
     
     

  199. handclapping says:

    @naebd
    As Margo said “Excuse me, who’s this they?” Their act is your act.

  200. Dawve30 says:

    The scottish police federation twitter account just tweeted that its members were kept busy policing a march of 20000 at the weekend.

  201. cath says:

    Interesting tweet from Stewart Hosie
     
    Abertay Uni debate vs George Robertson. Before Yes 21% No 59 D/K 20. After debate #Yes 51% No 38 D/K 11. 250 students attended. #VoteYES
     
     

  202. Bugger (the PANDA) says:

    Handclapping
     
    Nice to see you are still with us.
    I had fears when I saw an ambulance going down the hill. You were quite pecked and if you climbed the Hill on your own two feet, I doff mon chapeau.

  203. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ Doug Daniel – Am I missing something here? With regards to Nicola Sturgeon in your words:
    I can’t help feeling her rise has at least something to do with the fact she’s both female and non-white, thus making her an attractive candidate for any political party.
    Can you explain what you meant by that? Especially the non-white comment.
    @ Desimond – It seems you are in agreement with Doug Daniel regarding Nicola Sturgeon and her blah blah blah speech. Can you explain to me [ignoramus] what TAS is and why you suggest ‘worming in’ is applicable.
     

  204. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Indeed Bugger. Just sent you a pic btw.

  205. handclapping says:

    @BtP
    Thank you for your concern, its galling being passed by 3 year olds. I made it up to the TV camera by the tent but they didn’t want my picture. Next year we should have it in Easter Road and Hibs can play on the hill.

  206. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    Archie no Erchie, it was Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh he meant…
     

  207. Conan_the_Librarian says:

    @Handclapping
     
    You were looking quite peely wally mate! Glad to see to you OK.

  208. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ Conan – Thanks for that. I was just about to blow a fuse. Apologies to all

  209. muttley79 says:

    @Doug Daniel
     
     
    Yes, I agree.  I don’t think she has convinced everybody in the SNP of her commitment (particularly John Swinney it seems!).  I am not a SNP member, but I would be suspicions of her motives, given her track record with other parties.  It is like kids who change supporting football teams depending on their fortunes.
     
    @Archie
     
    TAS means Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. 

  210. david says:

    i thot she was great on saturday

  211. Bugger (the PANDA) says:

    Kendomacaroonbar and Doug daniel
    Just for the record Eddie Reader is really only rated to me in my mind. She was a niece of my Sister. I was mildly abused by my Nephew on Sunday for not talking to her.
    Sorry Kendonmacaroonbar, on another post I missed you off my Role of  New Friendship   thanks post. Grievous error as I do have to thank you very much for your company most of that day. Thanks again for pouring Cider down my throat at strategic intervals.
    I suppose I have become to obsessed with TJaeannie.
     
    James McLaren (aka Bugger ((the Panda))

  212. Bugger (the PANDA) says:

    HANDCLAPPING
     
    DOUBLE PLUS GOOD!

  213. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ Doug and Desimond – My fault, I should have gone back to Mutley’s post way back to pick up the thread. I am indebted to your forgiveness.

  214. david says:

    ed miliiband backstabs his brother, alexander backstabs his sister. honourable members would steal the sugar from their grannies tea in their crusade to help the poor and vulnerable. its what they came into politics for. such devotion

  215. kendomacaroonbar says:

    BTP,
     
    It was an absolute pleasure to share some time and a small libation with you sir !
    Memo to self…..I need to try and figure out an independence cocktail :-)

  216. Bugger (the PANDA) says:

    Conan
    Just back in the melting Pot on Boulevard Strasbourg after a bugger of a journey. The Captain at Amsterdam Airport refused to accept the plane from the ground crew because of a oil leak. 27C here today and came home wearing a woolie simit.
    I don’t have my computer in TLS so i will send the flag waving photies when I get access to my    notebook later in the week.
    Need to do this agin, like in November, in Glasgow?
    James McLaren (aka Bugger ((the Panda))

  217. PRJ says:

    A wee bit off topic, but I have just noticed that all my posts on the Scotsman web site are now blocked!!!!! I must have been upsetting someone.

  218. Robert Louis says:

    naebd @503pm
     
    Sorry to hear you think my comment is in your words “absolute mince”, but i actually took it from the march organisers own website, the link to which I included.
     
    However, as you clearly have difficulty grasping technicalities, like oh i don’t know, the truth, here is the link again;
    http://www.independencerally.com/main/?page_id=224
     
    Just in case you have problems making enough effort to click on the link, let me quote from the website to make it really, really easy for you;
     
    “We are not aligned to any one political party and whilst we interact with several political parties, groups and organisations we are independent in our approach to the organisation of the event and have one mission – to work towards the biggest gathering of supporters of Scottish Independence – this is your event – A PEOPLE’S EVENT.”
     
    As regards your wee rant about YES Scotland, if you think it isn’t good enough, get involved, offer to help.  They need volunteers.  Maybe if you do get involved, you will get a better understanding of why they work the way they do.
     
    It’s really easy to sit at a keyboard moaning about YES Scotland.  It doesn’t mean you are even remotely correct.  Oh, and NO, we don’t all agree with your comments about them, btw.
     
     
     

  219. callum says:

    2 months before the referendum next year – it will be the commonwealth games.  So if you get tickets, be sure to take a few YES banners wrapped in your saltire.  I’m sure just about every other nation competing will have lots of helpful, handy and friendly advice on offer about “separating” from the UK.

  220. Tim F-G says:

    for muttley and everyone else who had trouble hearing Ruth Wishart properly last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWLgwqZUYYM
    Doug mentioned the great overlap of speakers between last year and this one, and I saw that as soon as the website was updated with the attendees. For my money, Allan Grogan, Elaine C Smith and Aamer Anwar were the three best speakers. I heard some people complain that Anwar was too “shouty” but 1) not everyone is soft-spoken and 2) there was plenty to be rightly pissed off about; nothing against passion. I thought Wee Eck was very lacklustre last year and Saturday’s speech was much better, fourth best speech of the day for me. Canavan’s speech was a good rallying call but little else. In hindsight I agree that they could have omitted Blair Jenkins and gotten someone like Wishart instead. I think Lesley Riddoch would be a good choice for next year’s lineup if she was willing. 

  221. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    @ PRJ – Sorry about that but if you are Scottish and have an opinion that uses emotive words such as :
    However
    I would like to point out
    Negative
    Scary Biscuits
    Keech or Cac
    …….then you are doomed and blocked for all time, or until the Hootsmon sinks into the midden of its own making. Join us here on the WOS matrix and enjoy a higher readership than that rag called Scotsman.

  222. Robert Louis says:

    Callum,
     
    Good point.  Almost by definition, just about every nation competing has at some stage attained independence from London rule.  Could be interesting.

  223. Emma says:

    @ Robyn – Quine fae Torry, oops I think I may have caused a wee bit confusion, I meant that I’d like both the Delgados and Arab Strap to reform!!
     
    I was wondering if one of the performers (Lou Hickey?) was the poor girl subjected to the Cathy Newman Horror Show last week?
     
    The second photo in this link is really good fun in a ‘Where’s Wally?’ kind of way. It must have been taken not too long after we started getting in line – see if you can spot yourself!!!  http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2013/09/22/the-hill-filled/

  224. Marcia says:

    The march was not that quiet. When I was waiting for the Dundee crowd to come down to the start position I heard a few individual pipers dispersed throughout the long procession. Lots of people blowing whistles and waving to all the passers by.

  225. Cruachan says:

    I enjoyed the day greatly, and also congratulate the organisera, but spent 30 minutes queusing for a cup of coffee. Small price to just saying saying.
    The Meadows gets my vote for next year, though just a thought, if its timed for just a couple of weeks before the vote, should we all not be out canvassing and leafleting and arranging lifts to the polling station for definite Yes voters?
     

  226. PRJ says:

    @ Archie [not Erchie] 
    My recent tact was:
    Please provide evidence or reference
    and failing to provide fact.
    They obvoiusly taking a huf and can’t deal with the truth.

  227. Chic McGregor says:

    muttley
     
    I’m a big fan of Alex Salmond and do not underestimate his importance on the political front, that is not the point though.
     
    And I am not going to list here the errors made or the reasons for my opinion stated.  It would not benefit the cause.
     
    I will say though, that the main reasons for both an SNP majority and for the drop in support for independence were, somewhat ironically, outside the influence of either SNP politicos or the cyber community.
     
    So I will admit to having been a bit naughty in implying the drop in independence support was mainly down to the PC approach.  That was for impact reasons.  In fact I do understand that a demonstration of safe hands was an absolute requirement to maintain support for independence and the SNP in government have accomplished that.
     
    I do not believe that the drop is significantly due to the focus shift you suggest either, although there may be an effect in both directions.  At best, a tertiary effect I think.  Nor is it even the, IMO, more significant, if routinely predictable, scaremongering campaign of the corrupta but was rather, down to the ‘outwith control’ economic events associated with the credit crunch.  These were manipulated to political advantage, for all they were worth, by Brown and Darling of course, but they couldn’t have done so were it not for the events which ensued.
     
    What I am saying is that if the CC had not happened and the bank propaganda smears therefore not possible, I doubt if the drop in support would have been significant nor Project Fear nearly as effective.  So in that pre 2008 scenario, pretty much all that had to be demonstrated was a safe pair of hands.  But that is not where we are.
     
    With the legacy of events, IMO, as well as demonstrating a better quality of governance, the Yes campaign will need to demonstrate anger, passion and grit as well.
     
    Niceness will not be enough.
     
     
     
     
     

  228. uilleam_beag says:

    The first part of my vids should be up on YouTube shortly, if it ever finishes processing.
     
    It has aerials from the wee spy drone everyone was asking about. (As Jammach correctly spotted, it’s a DJI Phantom, though it was a good bit cheaper than 500notes in Hong Kong…)

  229. Juteman says:

    A few random thoughts about the rally.
    My son was with me, and after posting piccies and thoughts on his Facebook thingy, he now has around a dozen of his pals wanting to go next year. Very few of his friends have ever voted, so these are the folk we need to get involved. It needs to be ‘cool’ amongst young, first time voters. The ‘butterfly effect’ is very important.
    For next year, a stadium is a bad idea. Even though i’m now a middle aged fart, I go to quite a few music festivals, and attended loads of demos in my youth. The beauty of a festival is that you can dip in and out to suit yourself. Watch a band, then go for a burger or a beer. The ‘Hill’ was especially bad in this respect.
    Anyone that decided on a 1/2 hour walk down the hill for a pee or a pint was unlikely to climb back up.
    Whatever site is chosen next year, it must be close to alternative food and watering holes.
    As for choice of city. As much as I love my home city of Dundee, it really needs to be our capital city. The BBC have ignored this Rally, but we really need to bring Edinburgh to a standstill next year.
     

  230. muttley79 says:

    @Chic McGregor
     
    Sometimes I feel like something is missing from the Yes campaign.  However, I am not sure whether getting angry is the right approach either.  Usually when you get angry in politics it is when you have lost the argument.  I do not think this is the case with the Yes side.  If we were to get angry and start getting tore into the MSM in Scotland for example,  then that would be counterproductive imo.  You say niceness will not be enough, but we have to persuade the don’t knows and the soft No voters to vote Yes if we are to win.  I don’t really see how getting angry would win them over?  In fact I think it would completely put them off voting Yes.  If you are unsure about something, and you see someone start acting aggressively, does it really make you want to listen to them?

  231. JamesLSnook says:

    Just to return to the attendance figures again, and with the feeling that I’m either invisible or everyone thinks I’m bonkers and is just quietly looking the other way – it is possible to hazard an estimate of numbers based on a standard arithmetical rule of thumb. Like this (and I apologise to anyone who saw this on the other thread and was silently unimpressed):
    1) when I was still on the High St a steward said the head of the march had already reached the hill;
    2) the area covered by the march route between George 4 Bridge and the hill = roughly 16000 square metres (I know it’s sad, but I measured it via an online tool that uses Google maps).
    3) a light crowd occupies space at .92 square metres ( I.e. 10 square feet) per person. (This is a standard, well attested measure.)
    4) we weren’t that light a crowd;
    5) if we were occupying space even at an average of .8 square metres pp (probably a conservative estimate) at the point when the march reached the hill and I was still waiting on the High St, there would have been around 20k of us on the march route. 15k would require an average density of more than 1 square metre pp, which is probably too thin.
    6) I’ll get my coat, and never mention this again, promise.

  232. call me dave says:

    Just in on NNS:
    When they are informed – a tweet from Stewart Hosie who was debating today at Abertay University with George Robertson – he of Devolution will kill the SNP stone dead fame.Abertay Uni debate vs George Robertson. Before Yes 21% No 59 D/K 20. After debate Yes 51% No 38 D/K 11. 250 students attended
     

  233. muttley79 says:

    @call me dave
     
    You know what?  I am beginning to get more and more appreciative of George Robertson as time goes by.  Inadvertently over the years he has been a great help to the cause of independence. 

  234. Alex Grant says:

    Hope no one has already said this but the Cooncil limit on the hill is 12500!!!
    I was a steward and we were told this umpteen times and that it would be enforced by the Cooncil.
    I am presuming they did so as this is H&S and they wouldn’t let anything else happen
    Still it was a great day whtever the number

  235. Dawve30 says:

    If your all still on about numbers the scottish police federation tweeted today that its officers covered a march of 20000 at the weekend. Either it was the indy rally or a secret BT invite only rally.
    https://twitter.com/scotspolfed/status/382171770595205120

  236. HandandShrimp says:

    Alex
     
    What council people? I don’t think there was anybody there. There was half a dozen police officers at the main gates, was there anybody on the other gates?
     
    Perhaps we shouldn’t tell them :)

  237. call me dave says:

    muttley79
    Yes indeed ; but will it make the papers.
    Sat beside an ex-labour woman on the bus from Fife to the march, had a LFI Flag.
    Still steeped in (old) labour values but had wrenched away to join the YES.
    We sometimes do labour folk down on some sites but once they shift over each one is worth their weigh in Gold.
    So be gentle with them and encourage as many as possible to see the light.
    Well done all who attended and those that post here who couldn’t make it.
    I enjoyed every bit of the day (toilet queue excluded)

  238. HandandShrimp says:

    call me dave
     
    This kind of mirrors the Newsnight situation. When we get the chance we win the arguments and the vote. The media and people like Sarwar are desperate that people do not hear the arguments because their pitch is such a turn off. So they opt for white noise and keeping people in the dark and scared. 

  239. john king says:

    geoff hujer says
    “I just couldn’t afford one in the end, but then, I couldn’t afford the £4 bus fair to go to the event from Fife anyway”
    tell you what  if you want to go next year and I’m in a position to help I’ll happily take you,
    I’m sure we could communicate though the rev to agree a meet
     

  240. Dramfineday says:

    If thinking of a route for next year and you want Edinburgh, you could assemble at the Meadows and walk to Pilrig park ( where the Mela used to take place – but there may be a question about crowd size in the park) or you could stretch it a bit and aim for Leith Links. This benefits from a route more or less downhill all the way.
    Then there’s Meadows to Roseburn park via Tollcross, Lothian Road, Haymarket and Roseburn. Or the shorter, assemble on the castle esplanade and walk down to the parliament – big field beside the palace.
    Or you could try (for the fit) Meadows, Tollcross, Lothian Road, Castle Terrace, Johnson Terrace (the less able of us could then filter in from the Castle esplanade) High street  / Royal Mile to the palace.
    And lastly, we could try asking the current owners of Donaldson’s school if we could start from their grounds (alternative Roseburn Park) then Haymarket, Shandwick Place, Princes’ Street – East Princes Street Gardens (It’s a lovely amphitheatre if a bit tree lined) bit of a hike this one if it starts at Roseburn but the less able of us could filter in at various points en-route such as Athol Terrace etc.
     

  241. uilleam_beag says:

    @HandandShrimp
    Aye, there were cooncil fowk there – some parkies tramped over and ordered me to “take that machine down right now” the second time I put the wee drone up. They were way stricter than the polis, who were very polite and primarily just interested in it as a gadget. 

  242. Chic McGregor says:

    Muttley
    We’ll agree to differ.  No point getting angry about it.

  243. john king says:

    dmyers says 
    “The woman I was walking beside on the march said that not many pipe bands attend marches these days because they are sponsored, and they can’t be seen to be taking sides over political matters.  I don’t know how true that is, but it could be an explanation as to why there was only the one band at the foot of the road up the hill.”
    I used to play in a brass band and not too many are sponsored (boo) and are always looking for paid work :)

  244. naebd says:

    “As Margo said “Excuse me, who’s this they?” Their act is your act.”
     
    Sad to say, I couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery. If Yes Scotland is delegating the job of organising a slick event to me, we are up the creek!

    (having said that, I still reserve the right to notice screw-ups and mention them – sorry)

  245. fordie says:

    Good critique Rev. And my thanks to the organisers.

    My personal bug bear was the silence during the march. Thought to myself, this is typically Scottish – even when we’re trying to change the world (relatively speaking). Make some bloody noise! and stop whispering. Make it fun for onlookers and get them on board.

    Also, the route was way too short. Should be the length of Princes Street.

    @DougDaniels and others. Disagree re. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. I thought she was one of the more impassioned speakers. 

    @muttley79  ‘wummin, instead of women’ You’re having a laugh, right? Should we all be speaking ‘proper English’? Though, I did chuckle at her ‘…women/wummin are clever’ comment. No need to state the obvious.

    Needs to stay in Edinburgh – it’s our capital city.

    And the Yes Campaign should get on board.

  246. scottish_skier says:

    Not sure why everyone was moaning about the toilets.
     
    I went over to the ones near the food etc stalls. Long queue.
     
    So, just went over to the ones on the other side of the stage / down near where the steps come up from Waterloo Place. Queue of 1. Even later on the queue here was maybe 20 folk at best for 4 toilets or so.

  247. Juteman says:

    Someone mentioned earlier that they couldn’t afford the bus fare.
    I’m just a normal working guy, The adult Yes bus fare from Dundee was £10, but and i’ll gladly pay the fare for 10 folk.
    I hope that doesn’t sound ‘wrong’, but I’ve been skint plenty of times in my life.

  248. Juteman says:

    Re toilets.
    I’m a bloke, so I just pished in the bushes. :-)

  249. Ruby Tuesday says:

    James D
     
    Excellent video!   
     
    What a lot of spectators!    
     
    I’m a bit confused now because I thought that the first part of the march was starting from North Bridge followed by the people on the Royal Mile.  
    Why were there marchers still on the Royal Mile at 12.45? 

  250. naebd says:

    Robert Louis,
    In fact, I am involved in Yes Scotland, but you weren’t to know that before you assumed otherwise – no worries. However, I’m the first to admit I’m not an organiser. I’ve done a bit of social-media work and have helped deliver leaflets. I wouldn’t fancy trying to persuade anyone though. Each to their own.

  251. call me dave says:

     
    uilleam_beag 
    Thanks for the film of the march and all.  Just watched it and can now put some faces to the names.
    Fantastic.
     

  252. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “So, just went over to the ones on the other side of the stage / down near where the steps come up from Waterloo”

    The ones nobody knew about.

  253. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Still steeped in (old) labour values but had wrenched away to join the YES.
    We sometimes do labour folk down on some sites but once they shift over each one is worth their weigh in Gold.
    So be gentle with them and encourage as many as possible to see the light.”

    Aye. I always attack the party, not the voters. The voters have been betrayed.

  254. naebd says:

    Well Stu perhaps you should have brought your own chemical toilet. This campaign is what we make of it, so maybe instead of moaning about the toilets, take charge!

  255. HandandShrimp says:

    James D
     
    The marchers started off at the Tron/North Bridge and the numbers just kept on coming down the Royal Mile. I watched from the Albanach and joined as the last of the marchers were coming down the Royal Mile at 1.20. We didn’t get to the Hill until about 2. Saw a bit of Margo’s speech at the big screen at the bottom by the gates but she was finished by the time we got to the main area.
     
    But there were only 6 of us there if PCSA is looking in.

  256. john king says:

    keef says
    “Have the organisers looked at sponsorship? Irn Bru, The famous Grouse, Baxters,”
    BAXTERS? are you serious Baxters are against independence as are Tunnocks

  257. call me dave says:

    scottish_skier
    I too used that strategy (never saw any sign that said there was two toilet sites) however still was about 50th in the line after a steward directed some of us across.
    ‘Little things mean a lot’ (favourite song at weddings a while back) so some signage would have helped.  
    Love your stats and facts keep on encouraging us!

    Baxter’s beetroot was my favourite but wrote them a letter saying no more would I buy as they had come out for the ‘Better together’ Still keeping my promise.

  258. Murray McCallum says:

    John King
    Baxters are against independence as are Tunnocks.
     
    I don’t care about Baxters but are you sure about Tunnocks? I must repeat how serious this is in my household. A much valued item is about to be “dead” to me!
    (*goes to check cupboard to deplete all stocks before getting answer*)

  259. HandandShrimp says:

    Scottish Skier
     
    I think only you and the other chap knew there were other loos

  260. HandandShrimp says:

    John
     
    Yes Baxter’s and old man Tunnoch are Tory Unionists. It is a sad state of affairs.

  261. kendomacaroonbar says:

    Mackies Ice Cream is dead to me.   Think we should nationalise them come independence

  262. HenBroon says:

    Robert Louis,” As regards venue, I’m not so sure about Glasgow green, as that’s where better together (u-KOK) hold their annual marches once a year on or around the 12th of July – isn’t it?   Wouldn’t want to copy that. ”

    My bullshit detector has been twitching like mad reading this thread. I am getting a sense that some people are not in favour of Glasgow green for very spurious reasons. Underlying it all I get the sense that these reasons are more to do with Glasgow not been seen as upmarket enough for our kind of people. It is commonly known as inverted snobbery. If we are seen as a primarily Edinburgh biased event, then we fall in to the same trap that Scotland is struggling to extricate from. The Scottish Government have taken their cabinet around Scotland for those very reasons. To ignore Glasgow for this very important history making march will I think be a huge mistake, a great opportunity missed. Like it or not Glasgow is the population center of Scotland. It is easily reached and is regarded as one of the finest shopping areas in Europe. It has fantastic facilities. If we are seen to reject it for reasons that smell of snobbery then we are in trouble. This forum is starting to look like Newsnet Scotland’s forum, twee and hand knitted.

    The green has a capacity of 70,000, a number that is well withing our reach. It has hosted some fantastic events over the years, not least The Stone Roses recently that had 50,000 there and was a sell out…….http://bit.ly/1b7kejK…………..The venue is regarded as one of the best on any bands tour. I am sure if it is going to cost a bit more that we are well able to come up with the funds. It has been done before.

    We cannot rule out a venue simply because someone we may not like appeared there for goodness sake. Please do not start forming cliques.

  263. john king says:

    dmyers says 
    Scottish skier says @ 7.53pm
    I dont know what event you were at?
    but my wife and I stood in a 50 person long queue and waited for about twenty minutes (the queue for the other side was reportedly over an hour) and watched an elderly man try to manhandle his severely disabled wife into a portaloo as  there were no disabled toilets to be had,
    others rushed to help but can you imagine how mortified that poor woman was?

  264. call me dave says:

    Hope springs eternal: aye right!
     
    According to Energy Voice, the UK Government is “on the verge” of declaring the Scottish power plant the winner of a £1bn funding grant to develop Carbon Capture and Storage technology (CSS).
    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-economy/8065-peterhead-in-line-for-p1bn-carbon-capture-award
    Remember this, I had forgotten.
    In June 2007, shortly after the SNP won the Holyrood election by one seat, the then Labour chancellor Alistair Darling confirmed that the UK Labour government would not be committing to a carbon storage project at Peterhead.

  265. naebd says:

    HenBroon – compelling argument for having the next one in Glesga.

  266. Sneddon says:

    Regarding next years route, some have suggested walking up the mound, no way, that is harder than walking up Calton Hill.  For the disabled like me  that’s a definite no, no.  How about up Meadows walk along Geotge V bridge turn left down past the castle to fountainbridge and onto Lothian Road then Melville Crescent back to the meadows.
    I like the idea of an ‘Indepedence Festival’ held at the meadows with loads of stuff for don’t knows to visit and get convinced by us. As well as stuff like e.g. food, entertainment, re enactors, music and comedy tent, beer tent, bouncy castle and all that jazz (that’s also an idea!) Enough stuff to last the whole day.    A large tent for the bands and speeches with outdoor screens for those who can’t fit in.  And loads of wish trees all over the shop.
    I would expect YES campaign and the SNP and other political parties to take a hand in helping organising next years event.  As being accused of being partisan by the press will be least of YES campaigns concerns by then,
    As said above these are constructive suggestions   Much respect and love to Jeff and the gang for organising this and the lessons learned I’m sure will be taken on(much like last years, if they want to crowd source for it let’s support them that way as well as buying merchandise)  Me I hope to be well enough to help out next year.  So if I am I expect you all to be dressed smartly, and no scruffs if you please. :)

  267. Indy_Scot says:

     
    It is clear that when people are informed they will vote Yes. The problem is how do you inform the public when the TV and print media refuse to give out the information.

  268. muttley79 says:

    @fordie
     
     
    @DougDaniels and others. Disagree re. Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. I thought she was one of the more impassioned speakers. 
     
    I never heard all her speech, so cannot comment on how good it was.  That was not my point though.
     
    @muttley79  ‘wummin, instead of women’ You’re having a laugh, right? Should we all be speaking ‘proper English’? Though, I did chuckle at her ‘…women/wummin are clever’ comment. No need to state the obvious.
     
    My point was that I do not think that Leckie, Kane, Higgins etc will able to reach the middle of the road, middle class female voters that need to be won over.  It is not about speaking English properly, it is about reaching different groups in society.

  269. scottish_skier says:

    The ones nobody knew about.
     
    Yes, they were really nice too. Proper porcelain ones with lovely traditional brass fittings, thistle motif tiles and tartan towels.
     
    Ok, went looking for a bush and ‘Oh cool’ ;-)

  270. HandandShrimp says:

    Hen
     
    I have no objection to Glasgow Green (a lot easier for me to get to). I went on the Trade Union anti cut march to Glasgow Green.
     
    I suppose there is a tradition of political marches being in the Capital. To my mind the march should be to Holyrood with the rally in park but apparently we can’t use that. I think that is wrong…it is exactly what a park opposite Parliament should be used for.

  271. Sneddon says:

    Henbroon- sorry just saw your post.  Holding the march and rally in Glasgow would be a huge strategic kick the baws to the BT campaign and I’m speaking as an Edinburgh man!  That said I like Glasgow anyway- it’s great for marching as it tends to be not as hilly as Auld reekie    Wouldn’t it be great to march along Hope Street past some certain offices of ill repute  :)
    Right I’ve posted enough- sneddon over and out.

  272. Jeannie says:

    @alexicon
     
    That was Donnie Munro who became a Labour candidate, but was unsuccessful in the actual elections. He left the band and was replaced by a Canadian guy called Bruce Guthro, who’s great.   The other band member who left was Pete Wishart who is an SNP MP.  I’m pretty sure the two MacDonald brothers are pro-indy.  In fact, I saw one of them up Calton Hill placing a stone on the cairn on the Democracy Day Demo many years ago.

  273. Albalha says:

    I managed, with an old BBC pass, to get backstage. Elaine C Smith was working away like a woman on a mission. To those criticising Margo, this is a woman with serious health problems and I think she still has a powerful, important voice.
    Nicola undoubtedly the star of the show. Eddi R was close by me when she was speaking and she was in tears. Her music isn’t my bag but if she can convince others, who cares.
    As for the music the lads from Carnoustie and their punk/pipe fusion was very interesting.
    A backstage film was being made by an ex BBC person for the YES campaign, let’s see what it’s like.
    As for noise. I have been on many a march in different cities and countries, my view it needs noise, we didn’t have enough.
    But well done the organisers. improvements to be made, but they made it happen.
    And as for Lamont’s shocking comments about the SNP at their conference ……what to say. Bankrupt politics.
     
     

  274. john king says:

    mosstrooper says 
    “Scotland will win.  ”
    for once I agree with Lamont 

  275. kininvie says:

    AND HERE’S THE VIDEO!
    (Worth shouting about)
    Together with full frontal exposure of the Rev handing out the bajis – and examples of shameless grabbing! :-)
     
    Thanks Will, that’s made my day
     

  276. Alex taylor says:

    On toilets: has anyone posted this one for the ladies?
    http://www.shewee.com/collections/all?gclid=CIq6hq2f4rkCFbMbtAodXEMA2Q
    For men the whole world is a toilet.

  277. Betsy says:

    @Fordie,
    Nice to meet you on Saturday. Completely agree about the quiet thing. Next year we all need to bring an instrument or a good pair of lungs. 

  278. naebd says:

    Albalha – agree on Nichola. Best of the lot.

  279. Luigi says:

    Holding an independence rally in Glasgow in early 2014 is a fantastic idea.  I think the numbers of attendees would be even greater than those observed in Edinburgh.  However, unless someone actually takes responsibility and organizes it, it won’t happen.
     
     
    C’mon Glasgow!

  280. Jingly Jangly says:

    Forgive me if I am repeating other posts but far to many to read through them all
    but I would like to put my tuppence worth re numbers,
    The March according to online calculaters was .8 of a mile long, it took me and others I know who were at different start points 1 hour and 45 minutes to get to the foot of Calton Hill (Big Screen) I counted at several places and the march was mostly 20 people wide if you estimate space between each  marcher at 4 feet then by my calculations 21120 people took part.
    There were probably those who went direct to Calton Hill and never took part in the march
    so anywhere between 20 and 25 k would seem wright, I certainly got the impression it
    was about double last year.
    Anyway it does not matter how many attended, The MSN will print or broadcast lies anyway
    what matters is that it gave all of us there a great lift and will spur as on to do more work in the coming year.
     
     

  281. tartanfever says:

    SS – Intrigued by your loo chat – but is it all above board I wonder ?

    What weighting did you use ? Andrex or scratchy cheap stuff ?

    Which polling company ? – and do they use a high or low cistern ?

    Holyrood or Westminster Voting intentions ? ie, No 1 or No 2 ?

    Did you get permission fromProf. Curtice to use these facilities ?

    WE NEED ANSWERS ! ;-)

  282. tartanfever says:

    Alex – some of those products are verging on pornographic. I’m shocked.

  283. john king says:

    Albalha says
    “As for noise. I have been on many a march in different cities and countries, my view it needs noise, we didn’t have enough.
    But well done the organisers. improvements to be made, but they made it happen.”
     
    just so happens I have a lot of contacts withing the brass band movement and you don’t get (other than a pipe band) a more stirring noise than a brass band ;)

  284. Ruby Tuesday says:

    HandandShrimp
    Did the march start at the High Street side of the Tron?  Sorry if I’m being a pain.
     
    I just had a limited view of the march from the Royal Mile webcam.   I knew there were marchers still on the High Street at 12.45 after that things went blurry.   In total the march lasted for 2hours.    That’s a long march.  
     

  285. Colin Dunn says:

    @ Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
     
    “The folk saying “X was on the website” just make my point about the layout being a horrible mess that made things far too hard to find, in favour of pointless vast background images. (Images which, idiotically, were Ctrl-C copy-protected so nobody could use them in attempts at generating publicity.)”
     
    Yes. I emailed them about right+ click being dsabled about 2 months ago, but the webmasters didn’t remove it. So many people use that funtionality to open new pages in new tabs, that blanket disabling of this to protect copyright (why?) just seemed very silly and very user-unfriendly. Agree about the big background images too, they made the site sluggish and unreonsive.

  286. muttley79 says:

    @HenBroon
     
     
    My bullshit detector has been twitching like mad reading this thread. I am getting a sense that some people are not in favour of Glasgow green for very spurious reasons. Underlying it all I get the sense that these reasons are more to do with Glasgow not been seen as upmarket enough for our kind of people. It is commonly known as inverted snobbery. If we are seen as a primarily Edinburgh biased event, then we fall in to the same trap that Scotland is struggling to extricate from. The Scottish Government have taken their cabinet around Scotland for those very reasons. To ignore Glasgow for this very important history making march will I think be a huge mistake, a great opportunity missed. Like it or not Glasgow is the population center of Scotland. It is easily reached and is regarded as one of the finest shopping areas in Europe. It has fantastic facilities. If we are seen to reject it for reasons that smell of snobbery then we are in trouble. This forum is starting to look like Newsnet Scotland’s forum, twee and hand knitted.
     
    I have some major reservations about holding next year’s march in Glasgow.  However, it simply is not fair to blatantly misrepresent this, and come up with your own imagined ones.  The reasons that make holding the march in Glasgow difficult imo are that it brings GCC into play.  It is very difficult, nae impossible, to imagine that GCC would not do everything in its power to make the organisers life a misery.  They will know all the local regulations, and are as ruthless a political organisation as you will get in Scotland.  Behind the scenes there will be SLAB figures in Glasgow pulling their strings, and they would disrupt an independence march as much as they could get away with.  There will be no pressure on them from the media either. 
     
    Also, the west of Scotland is where the core of the Loyalist and Orange Order presence is in Scotland.  These, and other elements, are not going to like the prospect of an independence rally taking place in Glasgow, to put it mildly.  I have pointed out these things a good few times already.  Therefore, to let others get their opinions in, I will not comment on it again.  I have nothing against Glasgow as a city or place.  The vast majority of its people would pose no problem at all.  I have been on the Iraq war demo in Glasgow and it was very good.  However, there are reasons why this would probably be different.  I also support government departments being moved away from Edinburgh.    

  287. Albalha says:

    @johnking
    Hope you are your wife had a good time in Edinburgh. Good to meet you both, and if you know good brass bands, they need to be there next year. Sound is very powerful. Bring it on.

  288. alexicon says:

    @Jeannie. Thanks for that info. I haven’t heard much of them lately.
     
    @Fordie, Good day, thanks for the company.
     
    Juteman says:
    23 September, 2013 at 7:57 pm

    “Re toilets.
    I’m a bloke, so I just pished in the bushes”
     
    My experience was worse than that I’m afraid. I managed to get to the toilets quite quickly, for good reason, over the hill facing the old Scottish office.
    Straight in no problem, I must emphasis at this point that I’m a novice to portaloos. As I was blissfully relieving myself I noticed, to my horror, that it wasn’t a fixed toilet seat.
    So I must apologise to the following lovely young lady, but I suppose you could take some comfort in the fact that I did lift the seat before exiting the loo.
    Anyway you ladies know how to hover and you always carry perfumed wet wipes :-)
    Sorry.
     

  289. scottish_skier says:

    So it’s descended into toilet humour.
     
    Rev needs a new article soon!
     
    Tartanfever: Prof C was at the rally and asked me if I knew where the toilets were. I told him ‘over by the burger vans’. ;-)

  290. scaredy cat says:

    ‘Not sure why everyone was moaning about the toilets.’
    Check any portaloo hire site and you’ll see how wrong they got it.
    There is actually a portaloo calculator. For 12,500 people at a 4 hour event you need  81 loos (more if people are drinking alcohol).
    I think there were 9 or 10 toilets, which wouldn’t even be enough for 2,000 people.
    I think the event was great by the way, and all the more impressive to know that a few people did it all without professional help. I’m just confused as to how the toilet situation was so wrong, even if they didn’t expect more than last year. Fortunately everyone was in such high spirits they didn’t seem to be complaining.
    I do own a shewee (as I worked outdoors in remote locations a lot), but didn’t think to bring it! Having said that, there wasn’t much cover, especially with that helicopter overhead :-)
     

  291. Juteman says:

    Cheers kininvie, caught drinking Guince again. :-)

  292. naebd says:

    The SNP won the majority of constituencies in Glasgow in 2010. There’s a danger of overstating Glasgow as some kind of Unionist heart of darkness. In fact, I think such a characterisation is… absolute mince.

  293. HandandShrimp says:

    Ruby
     
    Although the march started at the Tron (Hunter Square was used as the Pipe Band VIP area all the rest of the marchers were co-ordinated from St Giles with the first marchers sent down to fill up the High St. before kick off at 12:00. It was a surprisingly long march. God knows where they were packing them all up at St Giles they just kept coming. We snuck past the barriers and joined from the pavement at the Albanach. I lot of marchers were watching from the side and then joined in.

  294. fordie says:

    @mutley79 ‘middle of the road, middle class female voters’ You could include me as one of those. Yes, we do need to win these over but not by cringing and criticising people (and I would suggest, particularly women) on how they speak – only on what they say. Also my female family – mother, sisters, nieces – who I’m working on are quite happy to say ‘wummin’. I’m quite happy to hear them say it. Sorry, we’ll need to disagree on this one.
    @Betsy :) :) Don’t we look gorgeous on the pic! Great to meet you – and note to all, a trade unionist doing it for the sisters.

  295. Archie [not Erchie] says:

    An aside – After the tramp doon the hill and 2 hours to spare, heid and bladder burstin I did a Rev Stu and sat doon. My reflection seat was on the area above the Waverly Mall and did some people watching. I watched a Romanian lady do the rounds begging for money [same in Aberdeen], then a rather sublime woman approached and said ‘May I sit?’ I of course nodded while trying to figure out the accent at the same time as sipping my Costa Coffee carry out without dribbling.
    Isnt the brain a wonderful machine, when it can pick out nuances of expression and variables of accent in a nano-second. Having mentally established this lady was from Southern Germany I ran through my German verbs and nouns. The overall picture was enhanced when some of the Sud Tyrol guys arrived to take photos of the castle and surrounding area. Yes they still had their leder-hosen on. Thigh slapping and yodels were confined.
    Once the muscular youths had disappeared I felt the need to engage the lady in idle chit-chat. [Jeannie keep quiet]. In my poor German I said hello and asked if she was on vacation to which she replied in perfect Parisien French ‘Where is the nearest toilet?’ and further to that ‘Why is everyone wearing Scottish costume?’
    She soon departed after my hand signals were misconstrued and my French verbs got mixed up. I sipped my coffee and reflected even more. Such is life eh? :-)
     
     

  296. Morag says:

    Hope no one has already said this but the Cooncil limit on the hill is 12500!!!
    I was a steward and we were told this umpteen times and that it would be enforced by the Cooncil.
     
    I was told that (well, 12,000) a few days before the rally and emailed RevStu to warn him to chivvy the Wings contingent in to the earlier part of the march just in case.  However, I have to conclude that it wasn’t enforced on the day.  Nothing we know is consistent with its having been enforced.

  297. X_Sticks says:

    Juteman says:
    “Someone mentioned earlier that they couldn’t afford the bus fare.
    I’m just a normal working guy, The adult Yes bus fare from Dundee was £10, but and i’ll gladly pay the fare for 10 folk.
    I hope that doesn’t sound ‘wrong’, but I’ve been skint plenty of times in my life.”
     
     
    Me too Juteman, but maybe we could crowd-source free busses to the next event. I’d happily contribute. I wouldn’t see anyone stuck for the bus fare.
     

  298. HenBroon says:

    Am gonnae get wan:
     
    http://ebay.eu/1dEniRZ

  299. fordie says:

    @alexicon Thanks for the breakfast Guinness! and your company :) Owe you a couple. Hope you got home OK to the babies.

  300. HandandShrimp says:

    I went to the loo just before I started marching :)

  301. Shinty says:

    Hen Broon
    If folk can buy these things on ebay for £90 a pop – think I’ll be stocking up on cartridges :)

  302. HenBroon says:

    Shinty I’m defo getting one what a toy

  303. Robert louis says:

    Naebd,
     
    Thanks for apologising for calling my posting earlier today. “pure mince”.  Hopefully, you’ll give it some thought before posting abuse in future.  Most people on here are pretty civilised, and I’m sure you wouldn’t want to spoil things, what with you ‘working for the YES’ campaign and all that.

  304. HenBroon says:

    muttley79 says:

    I am certain that even with the limited cerebral activity of an Orange man he would be able to get on the train to Edinburgh and get of at the Waverely 40 minutes later. We need to take this right to them, the only thing to fear is fear itself.

  305. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Russian Television coverage

  306. Ruby Tuesday says:

    HandandShrimp
    There must have been marchers round the corner on King George IV Bridge.   It seems incredible that it took an hour for the end of the march to reach The Tron. 
    We really need to solve this mystery hopefully someone who was at the end up the march will let us know.  
     
    kininvie:   What a great video.

    While I was looking at photographs of last years march I found this:
    http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1400-4/photos/1348393159-scottish-independence-rally-draws-thousands_1470074.jpg

  307. The Rough Bounds says:

    Not nearly enough toilets.
    And far too many speeches. We don’t need nearly that many.
    Has anyone else mentioned the police? I thought they were very good. I spoke to one female ‘Bobby’ and she was a lovely lady with a ready smile. They deserve a thank you.
     
    And what a cheery crowd of folk. Happy, chatting, joking, folk with big hearts full of hope for their country. I had a lump in my throat on more than one occasion. My son and I arrived by public transport and we made our way up the steps to the Tron Kirk. What a sight met our eyes. It was like a dream come true. All those years of working for the cause was paying off and for the first time I actually felt that we just might do this thing.
    My chest tightened and I almost wept for joy.

  308. muttley79 says:

    @HenBroon
     
    I also mentioned GCC and Loyalists as well.  What do you mean we have to take this right to them?  Are you looking for a confrontation with them?

  309. Albamac says:

    I’ve been angry for years.  Any other reaction to what’s going on around us is impossible!
     
    If I were younger and fitter, I wouldn’t see most of the Yes mob in my road.  When all’s said and done few of them stand to lose anything other than another squeaky platform for their apologetic whimpering.
     
    Let’s look at a day in the life of a seventy-year-old, mentally and physically disabled, female relative of mine.
     
    This morning she received a letter from the DWP.  Owing to an error on the part of all those hard-working, in-with-the-bricks, salaried automatons she has, they say, been overpaid severe disablement allowance.  It must have taken those diligent drones about a year to realise that they’re a bunch of total fuck-ups.  So, their letter informs her that she’ll have to repay almost £800. They forgot to mention why they think she’s been overpaid or how she’s expected to repay them.
     
    Later in the morning, she and her daughter went to the Post Office to collect her pension. That’s when the DWP’s repayment plan was revealed.  They’d seized two thirds of her pension, leaving her with £65. Now, given that she’s in receipt of Pension Credit so that her pension meets the requirement for a minimum standard, how is that possible or legal?
     
    Anyway, like so many others, she’ll have to seek advice on their decision from other agencies but that process will drag on for ages and it won’t put a penny back in her purse.
     
    Angry?  Fuck off!  Not even close!
     
    Can someone remind my why it’s nice to be nice without making me boak?

  310. HandandShrimp says:

    Ruby
     
    Somebody told me they were packed like sardines up at the top end. I guess people like me slipping in from the side slowed things down too. Tributaries swelling the river.

  311. crisiscult says:

    Wish I could have gone but was abroad. Just wanted to make a point to any criticisers who think that so few people basically means no one wants independence, that generally people aren’t interested, and things should only change if there’s a MASSIVE groundswell of protest, with, I assume, hundreds of thousands on the streets; I was reminded of an anti Israeli war on Palestine (Gaza) march I attended in London in 2009. There were reportedly 100,000 there, and it was certainly quite something to be part of. What difference did it make? Absolutely ZERO I’m quite sure. 
     
    For me, the value in these types of events is advertising and promotion. Making it seem acceptable to be ‘pro independence’. For a lot of people, that matters; many many people are social sheep. So regardless of what coverage and criticism the MSM disseminates, events like that one, big or small, need to keep on going. The Brit nationalists are a small minority I believe, and opinion polls seem to show that most No people are just not convinced it’s going to work. They can quite easily be influenced by local and national events like the Saturday march.
     
    On a semi related point, I was glad to see a Saltire decorated hackney cab in Glasgow today. Subliminal advertising?

  312. Ruby Tuesday says:

    HandandShrimp
     
    The bit I I could see on the webcam they were just on the pavement. They just kept coming from somewhere.    Perhaps they were all packed into Parliament Square.   I won’t be able to sleep tonight not knowing where they were.   
    Oh for goodness sake now I’ve got another problem!   I can’t find the yellow smiley things!   I’ll just have to use this :-)
     

  313. mealer says:

    Thanks to SRSM for providing a piper and drummer at the back of the March.It made a big difference.
    I reckon there were three times the folk as last year.As far as advertising and promotion of the march is concerned,lets all remember that this was one of a series of marches and it is extremely important that numbers increase as the series progresses.No use having 50k on Saturday but only 30k on the next one.So the next one will be better promoted.
    As to venue,the meadows will only work if you have atleast 30k folk attending.Any less will look like a wee social gathering in the corner.I do like the idea of a “festival” style to it,if it is held on the meadows.And we need a headline act,or acts,with a more mainstream appeal.No prizes for guessing who springs to my mind!Many thanks to the organisers and all those who helped.And thanks to WoS.

  314. Ruby Tuesday says:

    How did that video embed and where did the yellow smiley thing come from? 
     
    I think I’d better just go to bed. 
    Buenas Noches
    Ooops! perhaps I shouldn’t use Castellano.   I promise I’ll find out how to say Goodnight in Catelan tomorrow especially for all these lovely Catelan photographers and videographers. 
     

  315. Taranaich says:

    All the talk about issues with Glasgow and the GCC making an Indy march problematic actually suggests to me that Glasgow needs a march.  A city with all this history of sectarianism needs to have a march showing that you can be separate and independent without being the enemy; a city with so many Labour voters who have been betrayed (as rightly stated by Rev) needs to know that independence will provide them with a greater future; a city with so much potential and vibrancy that is held back by so many problems needs to be shown there is another way.

    Of course GCC will make things difficult, of course the Orange centre will disagree, and of course there’ll be opposition – that’s why the people need it more. It doesn’t have to be the official rally, just anything which proves that while Glasgow and the West of Scotland may be a Unionist stronghold, there is a resistance, a strong pro-Indy collective who are fed up with GCC’s corruption and incompetence. My homeland Inverclyde is still a Labour place (though Stu MacMillan’s been gaining ground, and is now close to neck-and-neck), but every single Labour voter I’ve met is only voting Labour because “that’s how I’ve voted all my life/I’m from a Labour family/anybody but the Tories.” They need to know that Labour have abandoned, have betrayed them, and the only possible way you can get the Labour your grandfather voted for is through independence.

    It’s all well and good sticking with Edinburgh, but you’re preaching to the more-or-less converted. I say we brave the enemy stronghold, batter down the gates, rouse the people so oppressed and hopeless for so long into realising that they could do better.

    If people come looking for a fight, then the absolute worst thing we could do is back down – or not hold the march at all for fear of violence. That’s what intimidation is all about. I’ve started wearing my Yes badge every day I go out, and I’ve been wearing it in Glasgow. No problems yet, thank goodness, but then the fact I’m a big guy with a biker beard, ponytail and leather jaiket may mitigate things. If it becomes violent, then it should show not only the media’s true colours in a way that cannot be ignored: they won’t be able to get away with presenting the news as anything other than it is. They won’t be able to spin their pro-Union slant – and if they do, then they’ll be at the mercy of the international community in a way they haven’t for anything else.

  316. john king says:

    elizabeth says
    “On the hill he lad in front of us had what looked like light-weight telescopic flagpole. It had three sections – not sure what height it was but his flag was soaring above everything round about.”

    I saw more than one of those I think they were carp fishing poles, there not all that dear,
    as I remember they can be bought from GO(outdoors) probably not more than twenty quid  
      

  317. JLT says:

    At first glance, you think the crowd is the same size, but they aren’t! You have to look at the height of the photo being taken. The 2nd photo is taken from a much greater height (I’m starting to wonder if it was the Hubble Telescope in the Earth’s near orbit, rather that little gyrocopter thingy, that has taken the photo – that is some height!).
    If the 1st photo was taken from the same height, then the size of the crown would definitely be smaller in scale.
    I stick with my assumption, that folk marched, but didn’t go on the hill. I definitely remember an official saying that it was not advisable for pushchairs, a lot of folk will have marched and then gone shopping or to the pub, and the vast majority of folk on the hill are right into politics. They are the hardcore. From that, I would say, you could knock off 5,000 folk, and thus the numbers are lower. I still think there was around 20,000+ on the day. Not bad for something that was not advertised in the mainstream media!

  318. Morag says:

    That aerial photo couldn’t have been taken by the quadricopter – that was never higher than the top of the monument all day.  It must have come from a helicopter – either the police one that was there all day, or maybe a press one went past.  It’s taken from so high up it really doesn’t give a true impression of the crowd.

  319. Morag says:

    I think Taranaich has a very good point about Glasgow.  It is probably important to have a big event of some sort there, for all the reasons he says.  However, I think he’s wrong about one thing – about the city being a unionist stronghold.  Yes, insofar as the council is Labour controlled, but it’s not alone in that.  The individual voters are a different matter.  I keep hearing canvassing returns from Glasgow, and No ain’t winning.
     
    Now, if you want a unionist stronghold, welcome to the Borders….

  320. Taranaich says:

    I think Taranaich has a very good point about Glasgow.  It is probably important to have a big event of some sort there, for all the reasons he says.  However, I think he’s wrong about one thing – about the city being a unionist stronghold.  Yes, insofar as the council is Labour controlled, but it’s not alone in that.  The individual voters are a different matter.  I keep hearing canvassing returns from Glasgow, and No ain’t winning.
     
    That’s what I meant: there are definitely plenty of Yes voters, but it’s also one of the main places where you’ll find (for example) the Orange Lodge etc.

  321. Morag says:

    Hmmm.  Have you seen Larkhall?

  322. Taranaich says:

    Yes. Incidentally, that’s great news about the Yes contingent in Glesca canvassing: I can confirm Inverclyde’s making good strides there too.

  323. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Taranaich
    Much of Glasgow in natural nationalist country and the Labour party has always recognised this and has resorted to sectarian politics to deflect this. We elected a clutch of FPTP SNP MSPs in Glasgow in 2011 and we have to give them the benefit of a big YES event. We could win or lose the referendum on Glasgow votes
     
    Morag
    Larkie? I took a school football team to Larkhall to contest the final of the Cameronian Shield at the Robert Smillie memorial park. My team played in green and gold hoops. Result? We won the cup but our bus got stoned.
    BTW Larkie voted for Winnie Ewing in 1967. There is no such thing as a lost vote
     

  324. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Frankie Boyle’s probably your man for Glasgow. I watched his Max Kaiser interview on RT and he is politically very clued up

  325. Jeannie says:

    I’m from Glasgow and live just outside it.  I love Glasgow.  It’s a great place with great people.  But when this was first brought up, my initial reaction was not to hold a march in Glasgow.  My reasoning is that we’ve had two trouble-free marches already, but Glasgow has a lot of crazies and we’d be giving them the chance to bring trouble to the marches right before the referendum vote.  Also, for after-march socialising, Glasgow city-centre on a Saturday night can sometimes be a bit scary – my own sons prefer to avoid it – and I’d be a bit worried for people’s safety.
     
    BUT, posters are absolutely right about bringing the message to Glasgow.  My Mum’s optician had no idea yesterday that we’d even had a march on rally on Saturday, thanks to the lack of coverage by the TV channels.  ( she’s still operating in “outrage” mode.  If the optician didn’t know about the disgrace the BBC is before, he certainly does now). If there’s a march in Glasgow, the Glaswegians would know about it even if the news channels suppress it.  And, come to think of it, most of us would be away home before the town centre gets too rowdy later on at night anyway.
     
    So, I think I’m coming round to the idea of Glasgow as a venue.  Maybe not for the big rally on August 30th as wouldn’t want to possibly create a hostage to fortune, trouble-wise, but certainly at some point over the next year, I think we need to do it.  And one in Stirling, Perth, Dundee and Inverness wouldn’t go amiss either, albeit on a smaller scale.

  326. Albamac says:

    Ah, the ‘Dear Green Place’!  My heart is all aflutter!
     
    Ah belanged tae Glesga,
    Dear auld Glesga toon,
    ‘Fore the men it the tap,
    wi’ their heids full o’ crap,
    tore aw the hooses doon.
     
    They oaf’rt us dreams,
    When they pit us in ‘schemes’
    An’ telt us that we’d be free
    O’ the dirt an’ disease,
    the rats, lice an’ fleas
    that wur killin’ the likes o’ me.
     
    Aye, they freed us awright
    Fae oor common plight
    An’ the ties that held us thegither
    Fur they scattered us wide,
    Weakint oor pride
    An’ left us tae watch oor toon wither.
     
    Noo it’s junkies an’ drunks,
    An’ ignorant punks
    An’ we huv tae pass laws tae curb bigots.
    Gie’s a blaw it yer skunk
    An’ a pavement tae bunk
    An’ chib men ur poorin’ oot spigots.
     
    They gave us Youth Ops
    An’ the Enterprise Shops
    Tae paint us a future that’s sunny
    But, time efter time,
    The managin’ slime
    Were busily stealin’ oor money.
     
    Their latest illusion
    is social inclusion
    While honest folk hunger an’ sicken
    An’ the mighty an’ high
    Take their slice o’ the pie
    Fill’t wi’ fresh fruit that’s ripe fur the pickin’.
     
    Noo, the pride o’ oor youth
    Is nothin’ but mooth
    They’re no’ buildin’ locos or liners.
    They’re turned oot lik clones
    tae answer the phones
    or shovel oot burgers in diners.
     
    Politicians take pride
    when their heids they should hide
    in shame it the waste an’ the plunder.
    Pigs that cin fly
    Held aloft oan a lie
    While their betters ur trodden under.
     
    Aye, Glesga’s jist rerr
    Fur the folk who get mer
    Than the wans it the fit o’ the ladder.
    Hauf a century’s passed
    Still the people come last
    An’ their tale jist gets sicker an’ sadder.
     
    There’s still poverty here
    An’ the experts ur clear
    That weans ur gaun hungry among us.
    Noo, fifty years oan,
    Ur we ‘titelt tae moan
    Ower the buckets o’ bull that they slung us?
     
    Noo they still think they’re right
    Wi’ their brains made o’ shite,
    They’ll sell us the myth in a mall
    But whit good ur shoaps
    Tae folk wi’ scant hopes
    Who’ve already been sent tae the wall.
     
    It’s money they need,
    tae buy daily breid,
    No’ Gucci or Harrods, aw naw,
    But they’ll no’ beat the greed
    That deepens their need
    An’ leaves them wi’ sweet hee-haw.
     
    Aw these leaders o’ oors
    Ur the basest o’ hoors,
    Fur yer vote they will promise an’ pander
    But when aw’s said an’ done,
    When elections ur won,
    They’ll sell ye oot fur a backhander.
     
    So, who pide the price?
    No’ the fleas or the lice
    Or the parasites in the city.
    The rats dressed in suits
    still gnaw it the roots
    O’ a tree that they’ve stripped withoot pity.
     
    There’s a rank, fishy smell
    An’ the still silent bell
    Cannae ring oot an audible warnin’.
    So we jist staun an’ gape
    While the chancers gang-rape
    the city that we were born in.

  327. Jeannie says:

    @ albamac
     
    Wow!  Is that your own composition?  Disnae miss them an hit the wa’ as we say in this neck of the woods.

  328. Albamac says:

    On the subject of toilet provision:
     
    Does anyone remember the good old days when you left your home to creep down an eerie, gaslit stairway to use a toilet that was shared by three families.
     
    Remember walking half a mile to pay a shilling for a bath and, if you had money to burn, hire a towel for thruppence?
     
    I have to admit that, during the swinging sixties, things improved with breathtaking speed.  By the 70’s most of our mean streets and tenement closes had electric lighting.

  329. Albamac says:

    Hi Jeannie,
     
    Yes it’s one of mine, from 2003.

  330. David McEwan Hill says:

    That Glasgow has been let down by continuous leadership with no ambition and no imagination goes without saying.

    Much of the concern about Glasgow could however be equally true of some areas of the centres of all our major towns on a weekend night but many parts of Glasgow are as fine as an part of any city anywhere.

    I’m beginning to get a bit angry about some of the remarks about the city of my birth with its three universities, an Art School among the best in Europe, its magnificent architecture in its city centre, the second biggest retail centre in UK after London and its conveyor belt of great people,

    The present condition of Glasgow, stripped of industry and meaning, is the reason why we have to be independent and if we show Glasgow that is where we are going it will come with us.

  331. Alison Lindsay says:

    Next year’s venue must surely be Holyrood Park – under Arthur’s Seat with our backs to the ‘old regime’ of Holyrood Palace and facing the future independent Scottish Parliament. We could have many gathering points before marching  e.g. Leith Links, the Meadows, Princess Street Gardens, the Royal Mile.  ‘Stop the City’ we want to get on.
     

  332. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Next year’s venue must surely be Holyrood Park”

    It can’t be. As several people have already said, it’s Royal property and no political activity is allowed there.

  333. Albamac says:

    The present condition of Glasgow, stripped of industry and meaning, is the reason why we have to be independent and if we show Glasgow that is where we are going it will come with us.”
     
    Well, I’m Glaswegian, David, and I’m up for it!
     
    The poem was about people.  I didn’t set out to write a tourist guide.

  334. Taranaich says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill: Much of Glasgow in natural nationalist country and the Labour party has always recognised this and has resorted to sectarian politics to deflect this. We elected a clutch of FPTP SNP MSPs in Glasgow in 2011 and we have to give them the benefit of a big YES event. We could win or lose the referendum on Glasgow votes
     
    Agreed.
     
    I’m beginning to get a bit angry about some of the remarks about the city of my birth with its three universities, an Art School among the best in Europe, its magnificent architecture in its city centre, the second biggest retail centre in UK after London and its conveyor belt of great people,

    The present condition of Glasgow, stripped of industry and meaning, is the reason why we have to be independent and if we show Glasgow that is where we are going it will come with us.
     
    I’m angry too, but because this city with so much going for it is being squandered and mismanaged by some of the most heinous blackguards in UK politics today. Even after all the devastation caused by Thatcher and successive pseudo-Labour governments, Glasgow still has all these great things to offer – imagine what it could be independent!
     
    One of the saddest sights I’ve seen was on the road to Glasgow from Gourock. Back when Glasgow was voted European City of Culture, there was a big lovely sign on the M8. “Glasgow, City of Culture” in big letters. Made us feel all proud. Fast forward to today: that sign is long gone, the building it was affixed to a ruined mess of detritus and graffiti. You’d never know the sign was even there.
     
    Glasgow’s a shadow of what it once was, but it can be great again. Rome was razed half a dozen times in its lifetime, and it’s still there, one of the greatest cities in the world. Glasgow could join it.

  335. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “its magnificent architecture in its city centre”

    …that you can’t see because it’s covered in muck. I was in Glasgow city centre on Friday for the first time in probably 15 years, and it looks like it hasn’t had a wash since then. There’s plenty of culture and life, but to look at it’s a grim, grimy, oppressive place. It’s hard to picture holding next year’s indy rally there and everyone being as cheerful as they were on Saturday.

  336. David McEwan Hill says:

    Rev
     
    The final rally HAS to be in Edinburgh. No dispute.
    But a springtime in Glasgow…….
    George Square to Glasgow Green
    George Square to Queens Park
    Blysthwood Square to George Square
    endless possibilities

  337. naebd says:

    Robert Louis: “Thanks for apologising”
    Ah, sorry – I must have used misleading words – I never apologised for that. I still think the idea of a Yes march org keeping arms-length with Yes Scotland is dumb excuse for there being problems with it. If I’ve learned anything over the last year it’s that pro-independence politics is a messy business, and I can only speculate at the nonsense behind this particular bit of fragmentation.



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