Normal service coming soon
Okay, we’ve got a LOT of housekeeping-type stuff to get on with, so the next couple of days might be a wee bit quiet. We’ll need to be dealing with the ridiculous goings-on at the Labour conference this weekend at some point, but for now let’s just round up the last few issues regarding Saturday’s awesome independence march and rally and get it all out of the way.
1. Firstly, we need to say a big, big thanks to the organisers of the event. For all the issues that people including ourselves have raised (and are about to), this was still a heck of a thing to put together with no visible support from Yes Scotland or any other major players in the Yes camp – it seems to us that the official campaign needs to bite the bullet and throw its name and weight behind next year’s event.
By and large, though, it went off impressively smoothly, and anything we say below is meant in the way of constructive suggestion rather than complaint.
2. For the record, our estimate of the attendance, based on actually being there and on studying photos afterwards, is around 15,000. There were clearly people who marched but didn’t go up Calton Hill, and it seems impossible to us to place the crowd actually on the Hill at anything below 12,000.
Compare this shot of last year’s event:
…with this one from Saturday:
Now, the Ross Bandstand stage is pretty much the same size as the one used on Calton Hill, so you can tell how much higher up the 2013 pic is taken from. We put the 2012 figures at 6000-7000, and it seems beyond any sensible dispute, given the distance, that there are at least twice as many people in the second image if you bring all the groups together.
We saw almost no police on the day. A few lined the route and there were basically none on the Hill itself. There was a Hibs game a few hundred yards down the road that afternoon. It’s plain that the police “estimate” of 8300 reflects the low number of officers they’d committed to the rally – correctly anticipating no trouble – rather than any count of actual marchers.
3. As we’ve said previously, while it’s an iconic venue in its own right, in our view Calton Hill is a bad place to hold an event like this. We personally and directly know people who were put off attending because of the hill climb, despite the assistance available (nobody wants to be a burden) and despite the fact that if you go up the road rather than the steps, it’s actually a very gentle walk.
There are problems with other venues too – the Meadows, while offering high capacity and better logistics, are a bit far out, especially if you want to have a high-profile presence in the heart of the Princes St/High St area at some point.
But Calton Hill is fragmented, awkward and uncomfortable for spectators, and a terrible hostage to weather. We got lucky on Saturday. On a windy, rainy Scottish autumn day, the whole thing would have been a washout in a way that isn’t true of less exposed locations. We hope somewhere else will be found for next year.
(Easier said than done, sure. But one thought – does it HAVE to be outdoors?)
4. The procession was oddly quiet. The pipe band at the front seemed to go quiet very quickly, and much of the march was conducted in eerie silence. Next year let’s get a few drummers spread along the line at least.
5. The number of toilets available was ridiculous, especially for a family event that was going to have lots of women, older folk and kids. The Glastonbury festival has approximately one toilet for every 25 attendees. The rally – while only half a day long rather than three days – had one for every 3,000.
The queues were insane by quite early on, and there’s simply no conceivable justification for such farcially inadequate provision when the likely attendance was obviously going to be in the thousands. Men and even some women were reduced to going in the bushes, despite not much cover being on offer.
It’s a fair hike from the Hill to anywhere else with facilities, and you just can’t ask people to hold it in for four hours.
6. Similarly inexcusable is the “map” for the assembly on the High Street being kept a secret. We had to chase around to get hold of a copy at 8pm on the evening before, whereupon we found that the place we planned to have our group meet had been roped off for VIPs. We were an officially-registered participating group, and it’s idiotic that we had no idea until hours before the start.
(We also didn’t have the slightest notion that it was possible to have a stall at the event until the day before. The website was a mess, and didn’t offer anyone trying to publicise the event even the most basic of tools, like site banners – we had to make our own. There appeared to be no advertising of any sort in Edinburgh, and while leaflets cost money, that’s what fundraising sites are for. There were also no leaflets people could print out for themselves.)
7. While we’re talking about Wings, we also need to do some stuff a bit better next time. It’ll probably be a good idea, and less chaotic, to meet somewhere further away from the official assembly point and less busy, then have our own wee mini-march to get to it. I managed to meet 300 or so readers anyway, but we ended up scattered all over the place.
And next time we’re definitely organising an after-party.
8. While there’s no point having a rally and not having lots of speeches, too many were uninspiring. It is of course vital to have as wide a spectrum of speakers as possible, but some were clearly there to tick boxes rather than for their oratorial skills. People like Hardeep Singh Kohli and Elaine C Smith stood out a mile for their comfort being on stage in front of people.
We’d like to see more normal people, as well as more people experienced at whipping up a crowd, rather than just a parade of the same old politicos. And while we ourselves are obviously too awful and divisive, it was ludicrous that there was NOBODY onstage representing the vast online Yes community.
9. The print coverage, in fairness, wasn’t bad. The Sunday Herald had plenty (including the front cover), Scotland on Sunday wasn’t bad, the Sunday Mail had a decent two-page spread, even the Express was fairly respectable. (The Telegraph, on the other hand, soiled itself abysmally.)
The broadcast media, however, was a disgrace. The BBC and STV both gave it the absolute minimum airtime on news bulletins they could possibly get away with, and devoted almost as much time to “Better Together” director Blair McDougall as to the march. BBC Scotland is so (rightly) ashamed of itself that Saturday evening’s teatime Scottish news bulletin still isn’t available on iPlayer, and we strongly suspect never will be.
Sunday Politics Scotland, meanwhile, gave the rally exactly four seconds of coverage. If we use our modest 15,000 attendance guess, a rally of that size in Scotland is the equivalent of about 150,000 people from England marching on Hyde Park, and the notion that that wouldn’t be reported at length – imagine, say, that it was making a demand for English independence or an English Parliament – is so obviously absurd it doesn’t even need saying.
(Much of the show was instead devoted to the Labour conference. Is it fair that in specifically Scottish broadcasting, the Unionist parties get twice as many bites of the cherry as the SNP do, having both their Scottish conference and the Scottish bits of its UK conference given extensive airtime?)
Anyway, we’re drifting off the subject, so let’s wrap it up there. Those are all the things we thought about the independence rally. Now we’ve got stuff to do. Back soon.
“Is it fair that in specifically Scottish broadcasting, the Unionist parties get twice as many bites of the cherry as the SNP do, having both their Scottish conference and the Scottish bits of its UK conference given extensive airtime?”
Best of Both Worlds, innit.
Excellent as usual.
Can I point another issue that could effect voters on TRIDENT. please allow this link.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/new-book-reveals-secret-history-of–near-miss–accidents-with-h-bombs-092827045.html#RQsWs3t
It might focus the minds of doubters as to what could happen here, and whether or not we would be told about it, unless obviously catastrophic , I would doubt we would ever be told.
“please allow this link.”
It’s only because I’m in a VERY good mood that I’m doing so. Going OT is fine, doing it in the SECOND COMMENT on a post is really quite rude.
Next year we could have between 50,000 and 100,000 marchers. It has to be the Meadows to not only accommodate such a number but also to make it a much bigger event to attract all different sorts of people; with a whole day of planned activities, the march, speeches, music, stalls aplenty, activities for the kids, etc.
Make it an Independence Festival at the Meadows, something that will leave a lasting impression.
a lot of good points there Stu. another thing I’d like to have seen would have been more pipe bands or even drummers spaced throughout the length of the march – this would add to the atmosphere.
The one thing I did notice of Saturday as I marched was that all the Spectators were smiling and waving. A great day!
“another thing I’d like to have seen would have been more pipe bands or even drummers spaced throughout the length of the march – this would add to the atmosphere.”
Dang, that was the one other thing I meant to say. Edited in now.
Good and fair comment Stu.
Sorry didn’t get to meet you.
Onwards and Upwards Wingslanders !! Still on a high ( but wae gey sore feet ) 🙂
Stu make a mental note to use some of that folding stuff that was thrust into your hands on the hill to at least double the total of wings ‘bajis’ For next year. They featured time and time again in posts and seemed to be truly cherished by some.
Please don’t make them available anywhere other than next years rally (they have a genuine drawing power).
Thanks for all your efforts in keeping us uptodate with all the news as it happened.
“Stu make a mental note to use some of that folding stuff that was thrust into your hands on the hill to at least double the total of wings ‘bajis’ For next year. They featured time and time again in posts and seemed to be truly cherished by some.”
I wanted to have 400 of the button ones rather than 100, but the badge companies were startlingly useless and took forever to get the test run out. In the end even the 100 I had only just made it in the nick of time.
And yes, I like the idea of the march badges being rare and sought-after, but will look at the possibility of doing other ones for the shop.
I clicked on the March & Rally For Independence website months ago and discovered there were to be stalls.
I just couldn’t afford one in the end, but then, I couldn’t afford the £4 bus fair to go to the event from Fife anyway.
Looked (and sounds) like it was a great day though!
I think the Meadows would be a great venue for next year’s rally, but where to assemble? How about a circular march, start at the Meadows, hit the old toon/Princes Street and back to the Meadows for the rally?
MARCH FOR HOPE
Steady Keef !! 🙂 Many of us waded through Rivers, climbed rugged mountains, killed Grizzly Baarrz with our bare hands then held aloft a thunkin big flag pole better versed for caber tossers only to find out there were nane left. ( Mental note to the Rev Stu – need to find a better flag pole..pool cue’s gravitational pull gets stronger after a while :-))
The woman I was walking beside on the march said that not many pipe bands attend marches these days because they are sponsored, and they can’t be seen to be taking sides over political matters. I don’t know how true that is, but it could be an explanation as to why there was only the one band at the foot of the road up the hill.
I did think the choice of venue was a bit weird, and it really wasn’t comfortable to stand on uneven ground for three and a half hours. But I suppose it’s a place where there have been significant marches in the past of our self-governance journey.
In terms of the attendance, there were apparently a load of people who hadn’t been allowed to go up the hill because of a lack of space, so they would have been down outside St. Andrew’s House. I didn’t see them, so I have no idea how many that would have been.
All in all, it was a great day and next year’s can be much better.
Whilst one can only congratulate the organiser for doing a great job, I agree about the venue plus toilets.
Also the first batch of leaflets advertising the event stated Calton Hill 11 am to 4 pm , I wonder how many turned up at 11 am then gave up before waiting for any speeches or music to start. I wasn’t there at that time…… just wondering.
I, of course, agree with the sentiments about the lack of toilets, and Calton Hill was probably not the ideal venue, but overall it was a thoroughly enjoyable day.
I agree with smac, too. Drummers or pipers throughout the march itself would have been a good move – it seemed strangely quiet for that number of folk, I thought!
That aerial photograph was taken an hour after our party of five left the hill for precisely the reason that there we all needed the toilet and a bite to eat and couldn’t be bothered with the massive queues for the food vans and portaloos. I’m sure we were not the only ones to have left within that hour.
My naivete stuns me at times. I had no idea the Edinburgh marches were “unofficial”. As mentioned earlier the atmosphere was great, vibrant, relaxed, happy. As someone who has taken to the streets on a few occasions from the Rock against Racism marches in the late 70s to the anti Iraq War demo a few years back, I think it is the most positive march I have ever participated in. Then, it is the first time I have marched FOR something rather than against it. I wish I had made last year’s march. Won’t miss next year’s for the world (or at least oor wee bit of it). Heading OT: was delighted to see the Major in the RT coverage of the march. Since we were just a matter of yards behind him, we almost made it on to the telly 🙂 A bit like the whole march on the BBC (almost, just almost).
I think your estimate of the figures is accurate. We were equating the 8000 figure as “four full Barrowlands” – there were obviously WAY more than that. Another thing to consider is the amount of confirmed Yessers who for various reasons, couldn’t make the march. I knew of at least a dozen who either had previous commitments, were ill, or just “don’t do marches”. No excuses next year, we need to get everyone off their arses.
We could maybe crowd fund some WoS banners? Great big ones! I’d be proud to help carry it.
I saw a guy had walked from the east end of Glasgow to attend the 5live debate and other folk have said the cost of getting to Edinburgh was a factor , is there not a YES supporter ( as a one off) could lay on buses from every city next year ? Mmm lets think ?
Yeah I would say The Meadows too, okay there maybe distance issues but people can plan their walk/march ahead more effectively (less able can join the march further along the route nearer the venue) and those who can’t do it can head straight to the venue early waiting for the marchers. As the previous poster says it can be a festival type gathering and atmosphere with tents, stalls, bands (bagpipe, drums, folk and rock), speeches from all groups and with enough room to wander comfortably. Also publicity needs to be sort out months in advance.
As for TV cover it is a bit weird that one has to go to Russian television for decent coverage.
Scottish TV my arse!
4. The procession was oddly quiet.
We need a suitable chant or song.
Bubbles, I agree with you, I think we should seriously ask Stuart to allow us to hold a fundraiser for additional promotional material, but also to help underpin his continued efforts to promote and develop the site with (hopefully) additional staff to help spread the load. The fact that I’ve witnessed the fruits of his labour with the gathering of us lot just reinforces my wish that his brainchild grows and grows…it’s in my vested interest to ensure that it succeeds and when we gain independence, we can all go out en masse and get a WoS tattoo ! ( ok, take that bit back )
“Bubbles, I agree with you, I think we should seriously ask Stuart to allow us to hold a fundraiser for additional promotional material, but also to help underpin his continued efforts to promote and develop the site with (hopefully) additional staff to help spread the load.”
We’re fine for now, ta. The big Feb/March appeal said it was seeking to raise funds for a year, so there’ll be another one around the same point in 2014 to get us the rest of the way. We have a lot more readers now, so the target will probably be bigger, because there’s a fair bit of specific stuff I have in mind that’ll cost money (particularly in the form of printed materials).
I reckon I spent the fat end of £500 on coming up for the march, between travel, flag, cards (underused in the end, needs a rethink next time), badges and whatnot, but I assumed folk wouldn’t mind that being taken out of the “overflow” from the poll fundraisers.
It was great meeting you, Rev, and so many other wonderful people, and I agree with your suggestions for next year’s rally.
Here are a few more ideas of my own:
(1) Make an official list of assembly points and put it on a poster so that people who just turn up can read it (e.g., “Yes East Renfrewshire to assemble at 219 High Street”).
(2) Create assembly points in the rally area. For instance, put letters on sticks so that you can text your friends that you are at assembly point X. I got a lot of texts describing in vague terms where on Calton Hill people were, and as a result I didn’t see lots of people that I really wanted to speak to.
(3) Make the whole rally visible from the stage — I’ve seen so many photos taken from there, trying to show the crowd, but it obviously only showed a small proportion of the people there.
(4) Get Yes Scotland to tell all local groups to make a huge banner and participate in great numbers. I only saw a handful of local group banners, but there should have been a hundred or so.
The broadcast media, on the other hand, was a disgrace. The BBC and STV both gave it the absolute minimum airtime on news bulletins they could possibly get away with
I saw film crews for Russia Today, France 24, Antenne2 (also France) and WRN, Wisconsin. Didn’t see ANY Scottish broadcaster.
Agree totally with your remarks regarding the venue and the eerie silence during march, we really must get this right next year, still had a fabulous day though and we tried so hard to find you but alas didn’t succeed
@rev Interesting you suggest an indoor venue. There are lots to choose from e.g. Edinburgh Playhouse, McEwan Hall, Festival Theatre to name a few.
Personally, I think the meadows would be the best place. According to Google maps, walking from Princes Street to Melville Drive (top of the meadows) via The Mound and George IV bridge, it’s only 1.1 miles. From the Royal Mile to the meadows it’s just a short stroll.
Take your time, Rev: I realise you will be champing at the bit (did I get that right, Morag?) to get stuck back in, but you deserve to recuperate and let the positive energy do its work. After everything you’ve been through, and everything unfairly thrown in your general direction, I can think of few others who deserve so many people shaking their hand and giving thanks for all the fine work you do in person. One of these days, perhaps next year when my health & financial situation is better, I’ll be able to do it too. But until then…
RE: the Reporting Scotland episode that’s missing from iPlayer – is it archived anywhere else? YouTube etc? Quick search couldn’t find it unfortunately.
@Scott Minto
Hope the wedding celebrations went well, Scott. It would have been nice to have met you, but we understand. But see if you’re reading this………you’re obsessed! Get back to your honeymoon duties!
I was in the pipe band at the head of the march and the reason it went ‘quiet’ after a shortish while was because we had outmarched the head of the marchers and had to wait for them to catch up!! I agree with other comments on here re the venue. It’s maybe not the terrain for comfortable standing or viewing of such a fantastically well attended and well organised event. I also agree that with the numbers involved it might have been better had there been pipe bands spaced throughout the marchers but again many bands have sponsors who may not wish to become involved in what is still perceived as a ‘political’ movement. They could play as individual musicians and not bear any insignia of their official band. Anyway – a fantastic day was had and a whole year to the big one – lots of time for thoughts, ideas and planning – see you there (wherever) 30th August 2014 – YES?!
Have the organisers looked at sponsorship? Irn Bru, The famous Grouse, Baxters, to name a few who might be acceptable. Even a bus company 🙂
As Oor Eck said this victory will be the people’s victory. We’re gonna win this so what better way to achieve commercial success than by having the foresight to back the people’s aspirations?
I seriously think Stu’s estimate of the numbers is short. Obviously organisers are expected to overstate their case, but they were announcing 30,000. I don’t think they doubled the reality. It appears that once the police clocked what was going on, and drafted in some extra McPlods on the ground, they themselves revised their estimate to 20,000. Police have never knowlingly understated the size of such an event.
The confounder is, at what point did the stewards (and police) actually stop people from coming on to the hill? Some say the hill’s official capacity is 12,000, some say 15,000 and some say 20,000. The difficulty is, I’m certain there were many more than 12,000 actually up there.
Stu compares it with last year, but he wasn’t there. I was, and I’m comparing what I saw with my own eyes, not two difficult-to-compare photographs. There were at least three times as many people visible on the hill as were visible in Princes Street Gardens last year. So even if you take Stu’s estimate for last year of 7,000 as correct, you’re over 20,000. And I think 8,000 or 8,500 might have been closer, though I wouldn’t press that point.
Also, some people didn’t climb the hill but vewed from the bottom, and some people just marched and didn’t stay for the rally at all. I think splitting the difference betwen the organisers’ and the police estimates isn’t unreasonable.
“I think splitting the difference betwen the organisers’ and the police estimates isn’t unreasonable.”
Well, that would give you just under 19K, which is closer to my assessment than to 25,000.
I heard the Hill’s limit expressed variously – all by people closely involved, not just random marchers – as 12K, 15K and 18K.
“There were at least three times as many people visible on the hill”
Here’s my VERY crude attempt to superimpose last year’s pic, rotated and shrunk to the same scale, onto this year.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
I think three times is pushing it a bit.
The photos are in no way comparable. The aerial photo of Calton Hill was taken at 2.30 when many folk had drifted off for a late lunch or pint, and folk who couldn’t get near the stage, drifted off home. I thought the march awesome, if a little quiet, but the hill, although it made a great place for wandering about and chatting to old friends, was not a good place for a large political rally. I had to watch all the speeches on a large screen, never saw the speakers in the flesh. Despite all that, it was a great day, and I thought the speakers (almost all of them ) were fantastic, as were the musicians. Well done Jeff and Anne.
Last year’s aerial shot is good/OK. Nice and sharp and reasonably well cropped. However what I would like to see is if at the point this photograph was taken if there were marchers still coming down the Mound. I would like to see someone do a Hockney style ‘joiner’ (photo collage) or use photoshop to create a panorama.
link to youtube.com
I want a panorama of photographs taken at precisely 12.45 to include The Royal Mile, North Bridge, Regent Terrace & Calton Hill. Can anyone help?
This year’s aerial shot is awful! Bloody awful!
The RT video footage was fantastic but I can’t find that anymore. Has it been taken off line?
Indeed, the March & rally is unofficial, and I think Jeff and Anne organise the whole thing on a voluntary basis and more or less by themselves. So maybe one of the things we could usefully do as individuals is to volunteer to help – especially maybe in the last few weeks, when the inevitable mishaps or misunderstandings need to be sorted in a hurry.
In fairness, the website stated that a map of the march organisation would be available on the 2nd Sept (that was about at the point where we started discussing where to meet), so I searched hard for it. It didn’t appear on 2nd – I imagine because various bits of bureacracy may have been holding it up. Anyone who has ever organised anything as comparatively simple as a gala day well knows what a nightmare all the permissions and licenses etc. involve. For all I know, half a hundred toilets may have been ordered, but unless there are enough people helping, so that it’s someone’s task to make sure the things actually arrive……
As for publicity – there were appeals on the website for donations for leaflet printing as far back as February, and boxes were available for distribution from April. I don’t know what the take-up was, or how many were actually distributed, but there again, unless there are enough volunteers……
The whole thing was being run off the back of one website and one twitter feed, and a lot of sites which should have been carrying the links simply weren’t, for far too long. That includes Yes Scotland. So, all in all, it was a remarkable success, considering….
I think it was a big mistake for the Yes campaign not to throw its full weight behind the march. I suppose it’s in keeping with the grass roots idea to let these things grow of their own accord – but at some point you have to shit or get off the pot, – and more money (what does a group of hairy drummers cost?) and more publicity could have made a lot of difference.
I hope if Anne is reading these comments, she’ll come out and tell us where and when she needs help and/or donations for next year, and how we can best use the power of Wings to help turn ‘The Big One’ into the most successful march yet.
“I think it was a big mistake for the Yes campaign not to throw its full weight behind the march. “
Yes. I understand their reticence last year, in case it turned out to be a flop, but when it packed out its available capacity it should have been picked up by professionals and promoted properly.
The folk saying “X was on the website” just make my point about the layout being a horrible mess that made things far too hard to find, in favour of pointless vast background images.
(Images which, idiotically, were Ctrl-C copy-protected so nobody could use them in attempts at generating publicity.)
And when you’re organising/publicising something entirely online, not having something as basic as web banners available defies belief.
Ian Grant
Interesting. There is no way of telling when that awful photograph was taken. Who paid to have that photograph taken?
Apparently, according to torn face Lamont the battle is between Scotland and Salmond and Scotland will win. Ehh, WTF?
Does this wummin occupy the same planet as me?
Ruby,
RT footage still there as of now:
link to rt.com
Very useful article in Newsnet Scotland on the BBC and its coverage of Independence.
Just occurred to me when watching the Debate from the Borders the other week, one of the experts brought in by the BBC, when they talked about Scotland in NATO when Trident is removed, said that no country has had nuclear weapons expelled from its soil and gained entry to NATO.
However no one pulled him up on this to point out that Spain did that, with US nuclear weapons.
Quote from article in Newsnet from some time ago.
“A treaty between Spain and the USA agreeing the removal of the submarines and warheads was ratified by the US Senate in 1976. The removal of the nuclear weapons system was complete by 1979. Spain joined NATO in 1982, after its transition to democracy.”
ProUnionists would want to dance around this possibly trying to make out it was different circumstances or other nonsense. However it happened and is can be done.
We are already a democracy, which was the delay for Spain, it was still getting there after Franco.
@Ruby Tuesday
I know who took the photo – from the castle esplanade. It was taken during Margo MacDonald’s speech, which was near the start of the rally and there were still people arriving into the bandstand area at that time, but he can’t remember beyond that.
I was wishing that someone had got a hold of wee Saffron Dickson and got her on stage for a short speech. I am sure that she would have gone down a storm.
@Ruby Tuesday
It was also just taken using a mobile phone. He didn’t do anything else to it – wouldn’t know how to (don’t know if Stu did anything to it, don’t think so).
Stu, put the business cards on sale – I’ll buy them as I’m sure quite a lot of us would.
There could have been speakers from the EU favouring Scotlands entry to Europe. The attendance was predominantly YesScotland with a smatering of other groups. YesScotland favour door to door and street canvasing, was there any personal invitations given out to individuals expressing an interest to independence at the time? Next years march needs to include more of the public.
What I find most heartening is the fact people have only just got home and they are already analysing where things, went wrong, how things can be better, and the sheer enthusiasm for next year is already off and running. I predict Scotland’s biggest ever rally coming to a meadow near you next March.
March for hope. Sounds good, but Scotland’s March for Independence sounds better.
Any other suggestions?
There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.
“There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.”
Aye, most chants are just embarrassing. But SOME kind of sound – even if just a drumbeat – would be better, I think. It just felt weird to be walking down North Bridge in silence. This wasn’t a protest or sombre occasion where that would have been appropriate.
The sound system was way, way too loud. These sound engineers are often used to concerts, where high volume – which affects the body as well as the ears – is desirable for the power of the performance.
But that does not apply to rally speeches. In that case, the effect of high volume is just horrible. Yes, the sound should be clearly audible for the whole crowd. But on Calton Hill there was an additional sound system immediately behind the Monument as well. Combined, these were overkill – and people were unable to converse, even standing well back.
In terms of the emotional response which makes good rallies good, this had a damaging effect on Saturday. It’s important for a large crowd to hear its own united voice as loud, but when the individual speakers are amplified into the stratosphere, the crowd sounds puny in comparison – even when it numbers in the thousands.
Next year: turn it down, and turn up the crowd’s sense of participation.
“The sound system was way, way too loud.”
From where we were standing, if anything the opposite was true. The first couple of speeches in particular were all but inaudible.
The RT clip isn’t just still there, it’s downloadable. It is safely nestling on my hard drive. Invite it on to yours!
Another confounder of the aerial shot is that a lot of grassy areas look empty – but these areas are actually on about a 45% slope away from the stage area. Some people were walking (or rather climbing) across them to get from one part of the hill to another, but nobody was standing there for obvious reasons.
The height of the copter that took the shot is way way higher than the shot from the castle ramparts from 2012. It’s impossible to compare the pictures. I think 20,000+ on the hill and another bunch at the bottom or leaving before the rally bringing it to 25,000 is a reasonable guess. If the police said 20,000, no way was it less than that!
I did try to find all you Wingers at the Albannach but it was just too busy, I had a fantastic day regardless. As it turned out I was just ahead of you all in the march. but I just knew you were all near. Can I just say to all the people that are part of Wings Over Scotland, especially the Rev, and the people dedicated to the Yes campaign, thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping me sane this past while. The MSM are a bloody disgrace in this country, the fear and smear tactics are frightening the vulnerable in our society, the very people that an independent Scotland will support. I have to believe that we will achieve our goal of a better Scotland for all. My thoughts on the march on Saturday is that, it probably was a bit subdued and could have been better, hindsight is a wonderful thing indeed. For me the most inspiring aspect of the whole day was the quiet dignity and self respect of the very proud Scots, be they of whatever colour or creed, age or gender, four legs or two. All of the speakers were passionate, informed and inspiring it would be difficult to choose which was the best. Thank you all once more for making me feel that I am not alone
Barbara
Your not so Mad, Mad Jock.
I found the silence very telling, happy people with a purposeful stride. Some marchers near me were chanting…. “what do we want” stuff. Stopped soon though.
Hail Alba
Can I suggest queens park (holyrood) for next year?
March down the Royal Mile past the Parliament to the park. Loads of space.
Remember THAT Fuschia coloured jacket…seems its all over the Labour Party iconography now!
link to bbc.co.uk
The Ides of March was the 15th of March ( the turning point of the Roman Empire). 15th of March 2014 just happens to be a Saturday :-).
Seems to me as great omen/portent of Scotland’s victory if it happenethat hat the rally was held on that day. Wonder if that ‘public toilet from Africa’ fella has any comment on that :-).
Wish we could have a really good concert for Indy – on the castle esplanade or Stirling castle esplanade. I’ve been to concerts on both and it’s such a wonderful experience. At Runrig’s 30th anniversary concert at Stirling castle, there was a point where they brought out Glasgow Gaelic Choir to sing a part of one of the songs – and it was absolutely magical. Marches and rallies are great but it’s time we started to party for indy – and make sure everybody’s invited. There’s lots of undecided people out there who don’t want involved in politics – but just might want to come to a party.
Lament looks like a ‘blond’ Mo from the three stooges.
kininvie
Thank you! Excellent RT have a ‘download video’ option which is very kind of them. I’ve downloaded the video so I should be able to find it easier in future.
I’ve read their request re re-uploading etc so I won’t be doing anything unethical. However I’m going to run it through the Gom Player thingy and convert every frame into a still. That’s always good fun!
Gom player is free and the ‘burst capture’ facility is brilliant!
This agonising over numbers plays into the enemies hands.
Who cares. I don’t.
Lots went !
Hail Alba
The police did stop people from going up the hill whenitwas judged full and there was another stop of the march for about 20 minutes as disabled folk were got to the top.
That photograph does not look correct at all. I know where I was standing and it was full. It is nearly empty in the photo. This could have been taken when the march had been stopped a good bit backfrom the climb up to the hill toallow the disableds up or after Alex Salmond’s speech when a very substantial part of the crowd left. In fact to my surprise a lot of people did the march then turned round at the top of the hill and went away
I note the organisers’ counters got around 20,000
@Rev
Considering the lack of coverage by our esteemed media maybe the next march should be held in London? Of course that’s a stupid suggestion for any number of reasons, but the buggers certainly wouldn’t ignore that. Frankly the lack of coverage by the press has been appalling. They seem bound and determined to deny even the existence of such popular support for independence.
Stu,sorry about the O/T being so quick, not meant to be rude. Also note I said the article was EXCELLENT AS USUAL.
Thought it was important and relevant to the cause,anyway I am happy you are in a good mood !!
Well, that would give you just under 19K, which is closer to my assessment than to 25,000.
I was referring to the revised police estimate which was reported by various parties, though not by the BBC so maybe that means it’s just fantasy (that was a joke….). It was widely announced that the police had stated later in the day that 20,000 attended.
I honestly don’t know the answer to this, but I saw the numbers last year and I saw the crowd this year, and the difference was around a factor of three.
Jeannie
It’s impressive that the photograph was taken on a mobile phone. I thought it was done by a professional. Very well done to whoever took that photograph.
Panorama joiner next time?
You can just ignore me I’m very demanding and hyper-critical about everyone’s photography except my own of course!
Firstly sincere congratulations to the organisers Jeff Duncan and Anne McMillan and I suspect dozens more I do not know the names of, you all did a fantastic job considering you basically did it all yourselves without any real backup from the political parties and YES Scotland. However I agree with the Rev there were a few hiccups. Venue, access, toilets etc.,etc.
Apparently next year it will all happen on the 30th August next year – a sensible date in my opinion. As a Glaswegian, I appreciate what folk are saying about Glasgow being the venue, however I really think it has to be Edinburgh i.e. The Meadows. I also think that Stu is right, time for YES Scotland, the SNP and the others to take a gamble and back the event officially. We really need much more publicity and advertising of the day and what it is all about. We need a crowd of 50,000 plus and we will not get that unless we get official backing and much more publicity.
Sorry, cross-posting. ALthough the crowd was close-packed at the front last year, it was thinner at the back. This year, you couldn’t move between the stage and the monument. I think this is basically a sterile discussion, but the numbers were overwhelmingly different. And I thought last year was a crowd!
“ALthough the crowd was close-packed at the front last year, it was thinner at the back. This year, you couldn’t move between the stage and the monument. I think this is basically a sterile discussion, but the numbers were overwhelmingly different.”
You could be right. Our own Melissa was stewarding and is very adamant about 20K, and I have no reason to doubt either her honesty or competence. All I can do is make my own guess based on what I saw myself and the pictorial evidence. I have no expertise at crowd-counting, but I just can’t see 20,000 people on that hill.
This is the best picture I can get of a verifiable crowd of 20,000:
I’m a bit surprised nobody was designated to stand in one spot and film the whole thing going past, and indeed that there doesn’t appear to be any “official” video at all. The whole of Scotland and we couldn’t rope in one independence supporter with a video camera?
Regarding the quiet nature of the march, I think it was entirely appropriate. We were not there to protest about anything, but to show our support for our nation’s independence in a calm, peaceful and dignified way.
Hey Stu just picked up friends kids from airport (20 year olds) they are down here for a backpacking holiday. They mentioned a friend had posted a clip about a young school kid at a live debate (young Saffron) on FB. He then said it came from a site called ‘wings for Scotland’. I corrected him and gave him a brief summary of your work.
Seems your site is about to go viral with the young ones Back in Glasgow. Perhaps a few more ‘youth friendly’ posts will encourage more to visit?
“From where we were standing, if anything the opposite was true. The first couple of speeches in particular were all but inaudible.”
Then it was certainly about coverage rather than volume – there was more than enough wattage.
Blasting one section of the crowd into deafness to compensate for pointing your loudspeakers in the wrong directions does nothing good for the atmosphere.
Totally agree about the website. It proclaimed attractions for kids but even now it still says “details to follow“.
“Totally agree about the website. It proclaimed attractions for kids but even now it still says “details to follow“. “
Okay, starting from there (because the main site is now just a single front page), can someone tell me where it says you could take out a stall, or where the assembly map can be located?
@Ruby Tuesday
He doesn’t know much about photography- just chanced it. By the way, did you see that photograph taken by one of the Catalans – it’s amazing. Looks almost grey with people with saltires on the hill in front of the monument. If only somebody would make a poster out of it. I’d definitely frame it and put it up in my house. Stewart Bremner, are you listening? Or anybody else out there?
There were leaflets, but I don’t think the distribution was very effective. Of course, what was needed was mainstream media presence. It’s probably impossible to get advance notice of such an event published as news nowadays, but newspaper adverts really need to be thought about. The trouble is, of course they are expensive.
In 1992, I attended a small rally on Calton Hill that was held about 10 days after the general election, because the fact that it was planned was mentioned at the end of articles in the Herald reporting the Conservative win and the Scottish disappointment with that outcome. (I was in England for the actual election, and didn’t get home till after the spontaneous Scotland United rally had come and gone.)
They just don’t do that now. I don’t know if it’s deliberate Yes-stifling, or if they’d blank the news of any upcoming No rally the same way. The internet makes a diference of course, but not enough, as you really have to be interested already before you seek out the information.
Jeannie, Ruby:
Here’s the photograph by the Catalan lady if you can’t find it elsewhere:
link to twitter.com
First time poster but I have been reading for a while many thanks. Just a few things, in our group YES Pentlands, we had 2 pipers piping us along the route. The fact that nobody else here heard then tells me that the march was very long as the pipes carry a long way. They were both encouraged to join the band at the front but chose to stay with us and the atmosphere while they played was amazing. Secondly, I thought the speeches very inspiring which shows it’s all subjective. Thirdly I think the organiser Jeff had people counting at the gate and they got 20,000 as far as i have heard. Would be good to get this confirmed.
@Morag
Was that the Democracy for Scotland rally? I was at Scotland United but I was also at another one, which was much smaller and we all took a stone and started off the cairn that you now see near the top of the hill. Saturday was the first time I’d seen the cairn completed and I was really proud because my sons were just wee and they marched and each of them put their stone on. I’ve still got my badge from that day. I just couldn’t remember when it was. Maybe our paths have crossed before, after all.
Here is an interesting table from the Scottish Government’s “Pensions in an Independent Scotland”.
Table 2.1: Social Protection Spending as a Share of GDP
Year: 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11 2011-12
Scotland: 12.4% 13.2% 15.0% 14.5% 14.4%
UK: 13.2% 14.4% 15.9% 15.7% 15.9%
link to scotland.gov.uk
When you consider also that Scotland accounted for 9.9 per cent of UK tax revenue, while receiving just 9.3 per cent of UK public spending, it goes to show that claims that Scotland cannot afford decent pensions is completely unfounded.
@Kininvie
Yes – that’s the one. Thanks for that. I think it’s amazing. Would we need the lady’s permission to turn it into a poster? Or just a courteous word? I think it would be a really good fundraiser.
Was that the Democracy for Scotland rally?
Maybe. It was intended to be a “hands around the parliament” and centred on the old Royal High School. I don’t remember stones, but it’s possible. I believe we got about two and a half times round the outer fence of the building, in the end. A few hundred people. How different from Saturday!
I went with my mother, and there were all sorts of people there – tweedy ladies with Labradors, and a guy who looked a bit suspect whom I tried to keep my Mum from joining hands with, but she over-ruled me, made us swap places, and announced that he was really interesting to talk to!
We’ve come a long way since then.
Stuart,
I understand your reservation regarding funds, but how’s about creating a one off ‘Marketing Fund’ that would enable us to secure a fold up tent, banners , flags duly emblazoned with the WoS Corporate logo that can be shared with the crew whenever there’s a YES Scotland or Better no think about event ? You could also get Greg to commission a cartoon or twa ? 10 grand would secure as much promo material as would be required ( as well as some of these shiney things that make everything better ) it would also help fund your travels to specific events if you were minded to do so ?
Oh aye, an a new flagpole, superslim like a fishin rod.
Hmmm, it’s not just the money (which we seem to be rather good at raising), but the organisation to get the gear deployed. I wonder….
On the hill he lad in front of us had what looked like light-weight telescopic flagpole. It had three sections – not sure what height it was but his flag was soaring above everything round about.
A rather poignant moment occurred in my day when I was sitting on the grassy bank about 100yds to the right of where Rev Stu plus Jeannie and others were standing. Margo McDonald was trying to make her way down the steep path assisted by stewards and I guess some family members.
She stopped right in front of me and we exchanged a nod, a wink and a smile. I thought to myself this lady has got *****. I wish I could have helped her but that would have been overload, and there were enough folk with radios and phones. This was not the moment for photos, autographs or banal chat, it was a moment of pride to watch her determination. I hope that ComCab pooped themselves when she called them……I heard it…..’This is Margo MacDonald, where are YOU?’
My point is this, reinforced by the inability of even Margo’s taxi to negiotate the hill, that a level playing field would be more than welcome for next year.
The fact that nobody else here heard then tells me that the march was very long as the pipes carry a long way.
I think that’s an important point. I remember last year trying to start near the front because I enjoy pipe music and wanted to hear the pipers. I wasn’t that close, but I could always hear them. This time again I’d have said we were quite close to the start, but after the first five minues or so they were out of earshot.
It must be a horrendous logistical nightmare to organise something like this, and I can only commend the organisers for what they managed to pull off. They had all the speakers and the big screens and the marshalling and all the permissions and so on – there were deficiencies round the edges and I was kind of glad I’d done what my mother always told me to do and gone to the loo before I left the house, but it was still an amazing effort.
Elizabeth,
I ken what you mean, The Rev had his Flag pinned to the end of a fully mature Canadian Redwood.
“I ken what you mean, The Rev had his Flag pinned to the end of a fully mature Canadian Redwood.”
That’s all my fault. I had to have the flag sent up to my parents’ house to make sure it arrived in time, so I hadn’t seen it until I got home and didn’t know whether it’d be heavy or not. So I asked my dad to get me a good solid flagpole that wouldn’t snap or bend double under the weight or in a stiff breeze, and being a highly reliable dad he did just that.
Having never waved a flag on a march before, I had no idea what an appropriate length or size was, so I said six feet, which sounds plenty when you think it’s already going to be at arm’s length, but with the hindsight of experience (and being a bit of a shortarse) I should have asked for something a bit longer.
(The problem wasn’t so much that it wasn’t visible, but that with little wind it tended to hang down and get in people’s faces, so I couldn’t wave it too much out of politeness. The reason some folk didn’t see it was because it wasn’t being flown at all for a fair bit of the time, not because it wasn’t high enough.)
Will know next time.
If “The Gathering” is to be repeated at some point can I suggest that you use a much larger flag to increase your visibility?
Or perhaps even a two-man banner in the old trade-union style?
This would peobably reduce the number of people getting lost.
Rev (and Melissa )
Just reading your twitter conversation about Holyrood.
Yes, the park is now in the care of the Historic Scotland, but it’s status as a Royal Park remains, which is why you don’t get all the road signs etc that you would see on a normal road. It’s also restricts ‘business’ vehicles using the road and so on.
There’s no political stuff allowed in Royal Parks I’m afraid, Historic Scotland wouldn’t agree to it anyway.
Other things can happen – fun runs and the like, just not political gatherings.
Don’t know if money was an issue but do know the licence was paid for the friday before the march, information from an Edinburgh councilor. Leith Links is another venue, kids play park and a couple of 40 foot hillocks for staging.problem would be the march would not get as much visability in the centre. Once upon a time hosted the May day rallies which were huge.
When it comes to September 2014, and if the polls are close we will need to be thinking in terms of at least 50,000 if not 100,000. That rules out any indoor location. I say this because there will be a bit of frustration on the independistas part that the MSM are not supportive. Even those of us not inclined to march will want to show our complete exasperation that they are not taking any notice.
Edinburgh is obviously the best city location as the capital but not necessarily the best in terms of a central venue. What about Perth with the huge expanse of the South Inch.
Also, when estimating numbers on Saturday, I haven’t heard anybody say that the crowds lining the streets would be significantly supporters and should be part of the total.
I felt that last year’s march was quiet too. Perhaps if Wings marchers are organising ourselves a bit better next time we could arrange our own musical accompaniment via crowd funding or do any of us or our friends/family have any musical ability that could be put to good use?? We lost contact with the main Wings group quite early on during the march and found ourselves almost running down a sparsely populated North Bridge trying to catch up with folk we knew… think the route choice meant that bottlenecks and gaps emerged.
I liked a lot of the speakers but perhaps there were too many. As next year’s march is being billed as ‘the big one’ I hope some stardust will be added in the form of well known musicians and bands. That would greatly boost the attendee numbers too. Surely the Yes campaign can help rope in a few big names!
What Jeff and Anne have done is tremendous and they should be recognised as true heroes within the indy movement. Lets help them stage a fantastic event next year by promoting it as much as we can. I donated to the fundraising of it this time round and will do so again for next time. Hopefully they will let us all know if there’s anything else we can do.
“I liked a lot of the speakers but perhaps there were too many. As next year’s march is being billed as ‘the big one’ I hope some stardust will be added in the form of well known musicians and bands.”
Yeah. Maybe they’re away on tour right now or something, but the Proclaimers giving us a couple of tunes would be a lot more use than sending a video message.
Points made and taken but perhaps a little harsh. We are talking about volunteers probably overwhelmed by something they started on their own initiative which has got much bigger than they could have anticipated.
August 30th next year it is and we’ll be there. I still don’t understand why some people are flunking a show of strength in Glasgow in the Spring
“Points made and taken but perhaps a little harsh. We are talking about volunteers probably overwhelmed by something they started on their own initiative which has got much bigger than they could have anticipated.”
Aye, precisely why it ought to have been taken onboard the official Yes campaign. Why wasn’t it? (Rhetorical question, not asking you personally.)
Jeannie:
Sent her a twitter request re photo & poster. No reply yet.
Kendo… it’s amazin’ how heavy a flag can get after a wee while and, attached to the Rev’s broom handle it must have felt like carrying a caber! 🙂
I remember being at political rallies in Queens Park in the eighties, I was thinking it was support for Miners, but maybe it was May Day?
Just to add my voice to the praise for Jeff and Anne who have done a great job. I know what is involved in getting these events of the ground, it is a lot. Jeff and Anne deserve all the accolades that come their way. To have done this twice in 12 months with another coming up is a phenomenal achievement that even the most organised and sorted events companies would struggle with, and they would have access to many more staff and facilities. Given that the organisations they have to deal with will have a default objection to Scottish independence it is even more remarkable. Calton Hill was chosen for it’s symbolic and historical message, and as we all now know was not ideal, but it was done with the very best intentions. Lessons will be learned.
The next one should be taken to the West right in to the heart of the Unionists stronghold of Glasgow. Glasgow green is a perfect venue, flat large and easy to get to in the middle of the largest conurbation of people in Scotland, and the very people we need to get out and vote YES. If we cannot win Glasgow we are lost. The initial rendesvous can be on the green, then take the march from there round Georges Square back to the green, and those that cannot march can be left there for the return entertained by what ever events can be organised. I say if we do that 100,000 is within our grasp. The BBC will still ignore it but that will also highlight their biased negative anti Scottish imperialism. We could even take the march down the Clyde side over the bridges and round the square at Pacific Quay and back, kind of difficult to ignore if we go right past their windows.
Incidentally I was interviewed by BBC Scotland on the top of the hill, on camera, as were several others, not one hint of these interviews were broadcast.
Please lets go for Glasgow.
If we are going hell for leather on this, why not think BIG…let’s sponsor a gig ? I mean, realistically if anyone has contact with some indy minded bands that could pull in a draw, why not ?
kininvie & Jeannie
Thanks for link to photo taken by Catalan lady.
Do you fancy doing something similar with one of your own photographs?
Gimp is a worth looking at. Gimp is like Photoshop but it’s totally free which is amazing as Photoshop costs about £500.
link to gimp.org
Scroll down and see Chanel Mixer before and after.
I agree with most of what you say here and I implore the organisers to do a lot better next year. I think with good organisation, pre-planning and fundraising, they could (and should) stage a much more vibrant and diverse rally for 100,000 people. We need to make our mark and next year is the big one – make it count or regret it forever.
Perhaps if Wings marchers are organising ourselves a bit better next time we could arrange our own musical accompaniment via crowd funding or do any of us or our friends/family have any musical ability that could be put to good use??
I thought of bringing a descant recorder, ‘cos I can play Scottish stuff like Freedom Come All Ye, but I doubt if that would have penetrated a yard! Or impressed anyone at all.
Having never waved a flag on a march before, I had no idea what an appropriate length or size was
I made a similar mistake with a placard I made for the London SNP to take to a march. Two actually. I got a couple of cork pinboards and asked a local joiner to fit handles on them. They were sturdy, I’ll say that! When I saw other people with bits of cardboard and garden canes, I realised how naive I had been!
We shouldn’t say Scottish broadcasters ignored the march and rally just because the BBC and STV did. I saw Real Radio interviewing Nicola and others before the march set off.
Because I had seen this I listened to the station as we marched to Calton Hill. Not only did they report the event, they also gave the attendance figure as around 20,000. This was at the time the BBC were putting out the original police figure of 8,300.
Totally agree on the make-some-noise front.
Admittedly, I’m a right diffident cringer, but couldn’t bring myself to join in singing of Flower of Scotland, initiated by a weirdy-beardy in a hawaiian shirt, or the DA-DA-DADADA-DADADADA-SCOATLIN footie style chant that somebody else tried to instigate. There has to be another way. I say there must be something better than singing national anthems, or doing footie chants. A slogan of some kind.
Just remembered a kilted old-timer on the sidelines dunting his bodhran as we went past – quite funereal.
Good article and analysis.
Thought that there could have been better advance publicity.
Note* Will do more myself next one on this issue.
Think that Police Scotland were not the only ones surprised by the numbers hence the lack of lavies.
I have been to Beltane events on the hill with fewer people, the negative under reporting of this event by the beeb will only serve to further undermine their credibility and value. Sky are going to be able to buy them for not very much money.
This was a great day, in fact the best rally I have ever been to, tremendous atmosphere, I feel inspired.
The strangest bit was my wee buddy trying to find you on the hill, she asked lots of folks who were somehow able to point us in the right direction.
Wings site is very useful just getting into reading the many great articles and comments.
“did you see that photograph taken by one of the Catalans”
Me and the good lady are in it! We were sitting down nursing the mother off all hangovers at the time but what a day.My mate came through with his 17 month old daughter,she had a grin a mile wide most of the day,almost like she knew she was amongst her own people and what it meant,but I couldn’t help think that we must get this done for her and her generation’s sake or we’ll rue the day for evermore.
Prosperity for Scotland and no union
For unofficial crowd gathering, Edinburgh is a poor choice because of its layout/geography. A better option would be the Bridgehaugh Park rugby/football grounds in Stirling with a view up to the castle and the Wallace National Monument.
Stirling & Bannockburn nearby is after all, the place where Scotland was effectively & militarily unified into a single kingdom.
I couldn’t be at the march because I was in Charleston, South Carolina selling my fine art prints of Scotland to the locals at the Charleston Scottish Games. A good event, only to be spoiled by the playing of God Save the Queen.
“For unofficial crowd gathering, Edinburgh is a poor choice”
I keep thinking that Princes St Gardens – but NOT the Ross Bandstand, just an open area – would have some possibilities. But I can’t remember the exact layout.
Apologies if someone else has mentioned this but Munguin’s Republic is reporting that the “police have now confirmed that the number was around 30,000”. Link
I want a concert! I want a concert! Mr. Jeannie was just saying can you imagine what it would have been like up Calton Hill with 20,000 people singing Caledonia. There wouldn’t have been a dry eye in the house.
If some enterprising person who knew about this kind of thing could set up an indy concert, it would raise funds for the campaign through tickets and merchandising, but also DVDs so people can watch it at home who couldn’t get there or get tickets. Like my poor wee maw who’s too old to go. We could have a family/friends party with the DVD on. If the concert were in an iconic location, we could sell posters. AND…..we could all meet up again!
Annie Lennox would be magnificent. So would the Proclaimers. And Runrig. And Dougie McLean. And Deacon Blue. I’m hoping Admiral Fallow might be pro-indy. And Amy McDonald. And the Glasgow Gaelic Choir. And there’s lots of other Scottish bands. And the Inverary Pipe Band. And the Vatersay Boys. And the Chili Pipers. And Eddie Reader. And Capercaillie and Manran. But if it’s a fundraiser, maybe we could also get Kevin Bridges and Frankie Boyle.
That’s just a few off the top of my head – there’s tons more. I suppose the problem might be they’ll have all their tours and concerts for next year booked up already. Oh well, Aye, have a dream.
“But if it’s a fundraiser, maybe we could also get Kevin Bridges and Frankie Boyle.”
Christ, people have fainting fits over ME, imagine if they got Frankie in 😀
Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
‘I’m a bit surprised nobody was designated to stand in one spot and film the whole thing going past,’
I’ll do that for you next year if you can arrange for the march to start at St Giles just opposite the webcam!
You could just record the beginning and end of the march count the number of people in one frame calculate how many frames there would be in the time it took for the march to pass the webcam and multiple. That would give you a pretty accurate count of the number of participants taking part in the march.
Does that make sense?
I’m also thinking it might be a good idea to use the webcam to wave a Saltire,YES poster, Wings flag, Empire biscuit or whatever you fancy to the world at the same time as the 1 o’clock gun goes off. You could make a recording and post it on You Tube for the people who can’t access the webcam at 1o’clock. You could end up getting loads of hits and have the world watching what’s happening on the 1 o’clock webcam.
You can perhaps tell I have a hyper-active imagination.
What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam?
“What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam?”
You askin’?
😀
Rev, You can get telescopic flagpoles in most camping shops 3m to 5m long. I’ve got one for outside my tent. I fly a Saltire and the wife’s lithuanian tricolour. I’ll be bringing mine next year.
@Ruby Tuesday
What do you fancy doing at 1 o’clock in front of the webcam?
Hostage to fortune or what? LOL
Pipe bands will be like hens’ teeth on 30th August 2014 – it’s Cowal Games
The idea of a big concert sounds good but just remember how the media helped rob Kinnock of victory when Labour did the same at Sheffield in 1992.
The media took the opportunity to portray the event as complacent triumphalism, the Election was lost a week later, and the Tories returned in a major shock.
Labour and Kinnock now argue that their lead in the polls was lost by the time of the rally – but we will never know for sure.
Just imagine what the BBC could do – that’s all.
The Proclaimers apologised on their video message and did promise that they will be there next year.
Thought Eddi Reader was a bit of a pain in the arse to be honest.
in respect to audio and video…any podcast\presentations in the planning Rev or you leaving that to others?
From the front row at The Albanach the pipers marched. But we were held as the press pack, the overseas one that is, wanted photos of the VIPs. This was when the flag was borrowed for Nicola and Aamer. So the band marched away, and were quickly turning the corner as we began to move. They waited for a bit.
Before then a charming young wpc, when the street was still quiet and the Norwegians were doing there their interviews and photographs, confirmed that the police had planned for a crowd of 10-15k.
Later we were held for an age at the Royal High gates, a police van across the road up to the hill as the chopper lingered above. My impression at the time was that they were seriously concerned about the numbers and thinking what Plan B may have been.
In time we were let loose on the hill. But Nicola announced that we were the lucky ones, for others at the end of the march were denied access.
From in front of the stage it was extremely loud and conversation impossible. It was the next morning before my ageing lugs recovered. I didn’t see the loos until I was leaving some time after 4.00, but then I hadn’t needed, having remained outside the pub at 10.00….
It was brilliant, and we can improve again next year.
Finally has anyone come across footage of Alan Bissett available yet?
im plannin on winning the lottrrey next year, when i do i shall buy a big estate and invite the rally to my place, will put on a bbq for half a million , just to be on the safe side
What about a Wings helium balloon flag? They don’t weigh much!!!
link to chickenshop.co.uk
More than anything else, some way needs to be found of counting the numbers taking part that the media can’t distort.
“media cant distort”. good luck with that one
I’d just like to add my thanks to the organisers as well. What a huge amount of work, getting permission, booking bands and speakers, organising PA system, big screens, leaflets, publicity etc. For two people to do all this mostly by themselves is truly astounding and without their drive and passion it would never have happened at all. We owe them huge gratitude and we all need to bring along extra people next year to make it even bigger and better. They can only do so much.
Rev. Stuart Campbell
You dancin’?
A wee jig with your Wings flag helium balloon tied to your sporran would be excellent.
There’s a musician there at the moment. You could perhaps get him to play something a bit livelier for you. Anything has got to be better than handing out leaflets that most people put straight into the bucket.
link to camvista.com
Roboscot
there exists a website that can print off tickets to any event that one wants to hold. I guess it would count the number of tickets requested which then could give a baseline indication of the actual numbers on the day ?
I have to go now but I’ll be back to hear all your 1 o’clock webcam idea.
As for a big name band playing at next years event. I am hoping that something comes out of next years Celtic Connections festival held in Glasgow in January. I saw Eddi Reader at the demo. There must be a strong YES following within the modern traditional music scene.
As for holding the march / demo in Glasgow I would be all for it but it might just put some folk off. Having said that Weegies do love a party! A march from Anderson to Glasgow Green via Argyle St. and George Square priceless!
I reckon those are all fair points, Stu. I was going to suggest to you that next time we have a WOS gathering place before heading to the main march area, since I arrived too late to meet folk at the pub. Still, at least the march hadn’t actually started marching before I even arrived this time!
Definitely more toilets next year. I spent the whole rally in a state of half-needing the toilet – not enough to warrant queuing up, but enough to make me think “a piss would be nice.” (And that’s even with me going before I got to the High Street, before Morag starts!)
From a personal point of view, I’ll make sure to regrow my beard for the next one, since it seems only about three people realised that the bespectacled guy with the spiky hair wearing the light blue Yes fleece was me. And just for you Stu, next time I’ll make sure to introduce myself by my full name, since you apparently know so many bespectacled Aberdonians called Doug 😛
In regards to the speeches, I would have two criticisms. The first is that there was an awful lot of repetition. “No bedroom tax!” seemed to become the equivalent of a band going “how’s it going <INSERT CITY HERE>? This has been the best night on the tour!” in terms of generating applause. It’s obvious the speakers don’t compare notes beforehand to make sure they’re not just retreading old ground.
The second criticism is that, towards the end, it suddenly struck me that most of the speakers this year spoke last year as well. A bit harsh perhaps, because about half the speakers simply have to be at these marches – you need the leaders of the pro-indy parties there, for example. But if I think about the speeches that most moved me, they tended to be folk who didn’t speak last year – Elaine C. Smith, Hardeep Singh Kohli, Carolyn Leckie, Nicola Sturgeon. Of those who spoke last year as well, only Dennis Canavan, Aamer Anwar and Alan Bissett seemed to match or beat last year’s efforts. I felt Margo, Salmond, Harvie and Fox were all better last time, although in Salmond and Harvie’s cases, it was maybe simply because they were amongst the first speakers last time, so this time much of their thunder had been stolen. But as I say, you need them there, if only to avoid giving the press an easy stick to beat the march with (“Harvie shuns march!!!” etc). I wonder also if it was necessary to have Canavan AND Jenkins speaking – I like Blair, but he was never going to be able to match Dennis’ speech.
It feels a bit cruel to single people out, but Mike Danson and Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh were poor. Danson had some interesting figures, but his delivery was terrible for a rally, where you’re meant to make rabble-rousing speeches. It made for a bit of a damp note to end the rally on as no one had any idea when to clap and so on. I wasn’t really sure why Tasmina was there except as another chance for self-publicity – her speech was easily the weakest as it sounded like it had been written by committee, and the delivery had all the conviction you might expect from someone who seems to change parties every few years. It was quite ridiculous to hear the person described in this article (link to telegraph.co.uk) speak as if they’d been a lifelong member of the SNP. I have no idea why the SNP are so desperate to promote her within the party, especially when you consider some of the people she’s beaten to get to 3rd on the European elections list.
@Harry Shanks
I know what you’re saying, but I think we need something that touches and stirs the heart as well as the head. And I don’t think a fundraising concert is necessarily triumphalist – at least not in the same way as Johann Lamont was at the weekend when she said she’d be celebrating winning the referendum this time next year.
By the way, I don’t think Labour lost the election because of the rally – I think they lost it because of Kinnock. To me, he just wasn’t credible as a UK Prime Minister. Personally, I’ve no idea what the problem was……I’ve always thought wee, ginger people who talk a lot are mightily attractive, myself 🙂
I’d love a concert too!! But I get the point about triumphalism. Think the festival idea which has been mooted by a few people here would be perfect instead to perhaps counteract that possible accusation? Jeannie has started compiling a list so I’d like The Delgados and Arab Strab to reform, plus Mogwai and Glasvegas. Anyone know if Paolo Nutini supports yes.
@Ruby Tuesday
A wee jig with your Wings flag helium balloon tied to your sporran would be excellent.
Tied to his what? LOL
“Anyone know if Paolo Nutini supports yes.”
From a friend I spoke to on Saturday that’ll be an aye,he knows a friend of his and confirmed he’s a supporter.
Holyrood may not be available for political events. The referendum on Scotland’s independence is not political and the powers that be should be told so.
And that BT should also be allowed to use it for a rally 🙂
Glasgow is much more pro-Yes than Edinburgh. If the object is to drum up support then Glasgow is a better place. More people to come, more people to see it and given the “support” given this one by the media we need to up the body count for greater effect
Yeah, Paolo would be great.
Jeannie – I was thinking exactly the same thing for an Indy Concert – we seem to have agreed on the artists too 🙂
It would be a huge mistake not to have lead up rallies in Glasgow, Stirling or Inverness before next year. And we know the British politicos of these cities will try to stifle but we must press on and embarass them into submission. you all saw how the crowds of bystanders and trourists reacted (all positive).
The whole of scotland must be involved in these events and on the doorstep is the way to drum up suppoert. If Pipe Bands per say dont want to contribute then maybe its time to form bands from say Pipers for Independence etc; Christ its their culture that is at risk too! Some Pipers reading this will want to fornt these marches of that Im sure. If things were better organised in advance and advertised bringing in all sorts of artisans then the lead up could be something quite fantastic.
link to dailymail.co.uk
Read it, weep and vote yes.
Back in March of this year this was posted on The March and Rally Facebook page;
21st Sept, 2013 – March and Rally for Scottish Independence – Edinburgh
31 March
Did we say we are going to blow you away with the venue for 2014?
along with this…
“BIG name already confirmed – with more in pipeline”
Hopefully all will be revealed soon 🙂
Mad Jock McMad at 1207:
There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.
Couldn’t agree more. We’re not in protest mode. We don’t need funereal drum beats either.
Next year’s event has to be a celebration. How about indy musicians playing upbeat tunes from flat bed trucks in the parade? Imagine the effect on the mood of marchers and bystanders of Craig and Charlie belting out 500 Miles as they glide past.
@The Man in the Jar
Went to a march in Glasgow once which went on for miles, I mean why go around the entire city just once when you can go around twice, think it is a John Maclean thing?
Our march would just be like the queue to get in, over there… Wait a minute! It ended up that way anyway.
Once again Jeff, Anne, Duncan etc have pulled it off. I have my criticisms but honestly folks. Lack of pipers. Jeff has been appealing for pipers, face painters, stewards, first aiders and all sorts of volunteers for months now. Yes Pentland brought their own. I made an executive decision to create a wee gap and delay the march at that point sothd
I watched Nicola’s speech again this morning on a video posted on Bella Caledonia. It had me in tears. So powerful and passionate. She didn’t seem to be reading from a script either which impressed me even more. Well worth watching for those who were there and those who weren’t. Hope she speaks next year.
Agree with the Eddi Reader point above. I couldn’t be bothered with some of it. I was near the front for most of the rally and saw what must have been the ‘VIP’ area in front of the stage behind a barrier where some of the performers and hangers-on were gathered. I had an awkward feeling like I used to have at school when you were on the outside, not being one of the cool kids…. It did make me angry through as that space could have been used to give wheelchair users a better view. They had a hard time of it where I was standing, being constantly moved about and probably not getting the greatest of views. Of course a green room type area is required, especially for those needing to rehearse speeches, but it felt a bit ‘them and us’. I didn’t really fancy going to the Bongo Club for that reason.
My lingering impression is the smiling faces at the rally – as can be seen on the RT video.
@Ed
The sound system was way, way too loud. These sound engineers are often used to concerts, where high volume – which affects the body as well as the ears – is desirable for the power of the performance.
I have to disagree with that. Last year many people were straining to hear Ruth Wishart’s speech. She spoke very quietly, and it was virtually impossible to hear what she was saying from a distance. I remember a guy near me shouting for her to speak up. If you are naturally softly spoken, then this kind of advice is unhelpful to say the least. Given that some thought she gave one of the best speeches last year, then the need for a much louder sound system was evident. This was actually a weakness that was turned into a strength this year imo.
Jeannie
Ruby
& anyone else
Message from Jennifer: re picture
Jennifer Munt Lopez ?@La_Nefer 19m
” I’m glad that you like it 🙂 You can use it for whatever you need. No problem. I’m happy to contribute.”
link to twitter.com
Munguin’s Republic is reporting that the “police have now confirmed that the number was around 30,000?.
Ah but can we trust anything we hear from Salmond’s personal Republican Guard, the Scottish Police Force?
/jk
Last year, we marched from the Meadows to Princes St, so I don’t see any reason not to go the other direction next year.
However, we definitely need to get some chants/slogans and some songs for then! Also agree re pipers – tho’ we had a pipe band last year, I think?
Next year’s Rally will take place on 30th August, apparently, so might clash with Festival events. However, the tourists had a lot of fun taking photos, so I don’t see a problem! (Especially since they let the EDL march down the High Street in the middle of the Festival this year.)
Heraldnomore – here is a youtube of Alan Bissett’s poem
@kininvie
Fantastic – well, that’s the first step. Anybody know what the next one is?
The lead singer from Biffy Clyro is a Yes voter. They would be good for a gig. I agree about Delgados (have they reformed?). If not maybe they could just for an indy rally – Emma Pollack’s singing Parcel O’ Rogues is awesome. Aly Bain is also a confirmed Yes. A mix of traditional and modern bands would hopefully satisfy everyone.
Frankie Boyle would be amazing but is not for some and I wouldn’t want him to tone it down. Shame, as he is a huge indy supporter. Also interesting article in Courier last week about Mark Thomas fancying living in an independent Scotland, maybe he would be up for addressing an indy rally?
Just to go on about the numbers:- if the Scotsman had managed to sell a copy to everyone there they would have more than doubled their daily sales figure.
Thanks Ian. The Law of Sod being what it is I found a link to it on newsnet five minutes later. But being the Law of Sod I haven’t been able to watch it yet. Will Rural Broadband speeds be pish in an Independent Scotland?
Everyone talking about a large Music gig, You can be sure there will be a massive YES concert if and when we win. Probably in Murrayfield.
An annoyance on Saturday was when people were making speeches and behind them band members were tuning up…couldnt they have did this during the wee Video segments, it was fair distracting for some of us in the audience, must have been worse for actual speakers only 5 yards away.
Looking forward to next years YES rally. It will be great to see the mix of Proclaimers, and other acts and hopefully to then end with rendition of “A Mans A Man for a’ that” as that was great on Saturday to see and hear ( despite Eddi Readers ‘exhuberance’ near the end).
One musical thought I did walk away with on Saturday was “I wonder what our new National Anthem will sound like in years to come?”. Cant wait.
Could all ways get a few accordian bands and not tell them what the gigue is.
Desimond – ahh, so it was Eddi Reader that was going over the top towards the end of A Man’s A Man? I had a feeling it might be, but I couldn’t see as the big screen wasn’t showing her at that point.
It would be great to end on that song, especially to do it with music as it was a tiny bit ramshackle (but still gut wrenching all the same). If they could just get Liz Fraser (formerly of Cocteau Twins, and easily the best singer this country has ever produced) to go along and do it, then that would be absolutely mind-blowing.
See what I started ? I dissapear for an appointment of Death by Powerpoint then come back to a cunning plan for musical excellence ! 🙂
The fact that we; as a collection of essential disparate individuals are discussing this is absolutely brilliant..PEOPLE POWER ! Anybody got the contact details for the Weirs ? 🙂
Eddie R is related to Bugger the Panda BTW…just as an FYI an so’s you know.
Here’s our video of the start of the Rally.
OT: How do you upload an avatar? I think that’s what those wee pictures are called. There’s just space for Name, email, website.
O/T: Here’s one to ponder and perhaps for any Photoshop Wizzes to have some fun with: Snake Oil & Something for Nothing.
There is nothing wrong with silence – it is very powerful – better than asinine chants for the sake of having asinine chants.
A fair point – every time I go on a march I have a strange compulsion to shout Maggie Maggie Maggie Out Out Out
@ AllyPally – If you go to ‘Off-topic – Quarantine’ link at the top of this page and read my post regarding Avatar to Gravatar its dead easy. Any problems then contact me via this thread.
Next years event is within the timeframe where spending from both sides is scrutinised. The organisers do a great job and hopefully will have assistance but shouldn’t be looking to the official campaign who will have other plans for their finance.
@AllyPally see this in quarantine:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
@ AllyPally – Sorry it got busy in Quarantine but to help you my post Avatar by Gravatar is dated 22nd August.
@Archie. – heh, we’re cross-posting. Great minds think alike 🙂
Nothing wrong with Edinburgh, I used to live there, but might there be some merit in using Glasgow (or Stirling) instead. It would be nice to fill Hampden but risky if it was looking empty.
Murrayfield would be great but more of a challenge to fill. 1.5million turned out in Barcelona (I think) recently, can we not fill one football stadium?
Well, Saturday, was a great success, and a lot of people, in excess of 20,000 are believed to have been there. Yahoo! Not bad for a bunch of volunteers and a ‘Scottish’ media that chooses to ignore them. So, hats off to the many volunteers who helped with stewarding, delivering publicity leaflets, piping and music, and other great things for the day.
A genuinely momentous achievement, although they could always use more volunteers for next year.
As regards venue, I’m not so sure about Glasgow green, as that’s where better together (u-KOK) hold their annual marches once a year on or around the 12th of July – isn’t it? Wouldn’t want to copy that.
Having said that I do think, that maybe a short march from Royal mile via George IV bridge to the meadows in Edinburgh for speeches etc… would be a good option, if it can be used, followed in the evening by a full blown concert of some kind, including the proclaimers and other groups at the Usher hall in the evening or similar?
Anyway, thank you to all those who worked so freaking hard night and day to make it happen on Saturday, Scotland owes you one.
Slainte.
PS. As an aside, there must now be an awful lot of photos of the Charlie chaplin ‘lookey likey’ mime artist on the Royal Mile, holding a saltire and wearing a YES Scotland badge.
I’ve been scouring Edinburgh via Google Maps (when I should be doing Uni work) and there really isn’t anywhere central with the capacity for a massive crowd other than The Meadows or Holyrood Park. Calton Hill definitely not to be repeated (not least because no one seemed to get the pronuciation right! COLL – ton, not KAL-ton, don’t forget the glottal stop), despite it’s iconic history.
The problem with the Meadows is that it’s not all that impressive or historic a route to get there, and it’s uphill from the city centre. Not terribly steep, but it may be a deterrent to some.
I think we might need to write to the Queen direct, remind her of her position thanks to our sufferance, and demand that the real sovereigns get to play in her wee park.
Clandonia are impressive, rousing performers but I don’t know their politics..
Thanks Archie. Now all I have to do is pick a photie.
Stu
On flag poles I was well impressed with the lightweight, whatever they were, 15 feet long ones.
On the plus side your flag pole would have been handy had we encountered an enraged Ian Davidson or a zombie that had mistakenly thought we had already voted Yes.
@ DonDeefLugs – Aye indeed, keep takin the herbal infusions 🙂
Just as an aside, as people keep mentioning it. i think the reason the YES campaign is not directly involved, is because the rally organisers have stated they wish to make it a ‘people’s event’, free of ANY political group. It is probably a smart move.
link to independencerally.com
“The fact that we; as a collection of essential disparate individuals are discussing this is absolutely brilliant..PEOPLE POWER !”
It is, but we should be wary of too many disparate individuals going their own way on things as it could well dillute the effect. The march and rally works because it’s one set of individuals organising one a year in the run up. So it’s best there aren’t 20 groups duplicating that, but all of us pulling together to make sure the ones that are happening are the best success they can be.
I know up in Inverness there’s someone organising RockYes concerts, and I’m pretty sure National Collective will already have a lot of ideas and plans regarding how to use artists that are pro-yes – if artists are involved at all with the campaign, or want to be, that’s where they’ll go. So may be best to get involved with your local groups, find out what’s already being vaguely planned and help out with that if you’re able to. Then make suggestions to them if there aren’t things being planned locally or there are gaps.
The March for Independence
Music in the Meadows
A full blown festival type event would be superb! Speeches in between musical acts. Comedians. Poets. It would be an amazing day. Although I’d imagine that would be ridiculously difficult to set-up.
kendo – “Eddie R is related to Bugger the Panda BTW…just as an FYI an so’s you know.”
I would just like to state for the record, so that I don’t receive any buggerings from angry pandas, that I think Eddi is fantastic, and I have her album of Burns songs. I especially love how enthusiastic she is about independence on Twitter.
(But these international superstars do have a habit of trying to be the centre of attention during group singing :-P)
@Doug Daniel
I did not think Carolyn Leckie, Margo MacDonald were that good. I feel with Margo MacDonald that it is more for sentimental reasons that she is chosen. She does tend to say the same things as well. Leckie was sincere and passionate enough, but I privately winced to myself whenever she said ‘wummin’ instead of women. I fear that the Yes campaign might need more cerebral, middle of the road female Yes supporters to connect with middle class women voters for instance. I am not convinced at all that Elaine S. Smith, Kate Higgins, Leckie, Kane etc can do this. I did not hear Blair Jenkins’ speech, but I afraid to say that he is not convincing as a speaker, at least for that kind of a rally. I am not sure about Colin Fox either (similar to Jenkins). Whoever said it was a mistake just to have mostly politicos made a great point. Anwar has been good. I think we need to include more people from outside the political Yes Scotland bubble. Alan Grogan continues to impress me, this year’s speech was excellent I thought. Thought Salmond was a bit flat, as was Harvie. I thought Sturgeon’s speech was the best. Canavan was again good. Alan Bissett was terrific, a really funny, but hard hitting contribution at the same time.
In regards Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh: if I was high up in the SNP I would be concerned about her influence. I think I read that she has the support of Sturgeon. A close relative of mine is an SNP member, and I read the candidates’ pitch for the European elections in the SNP mailing list thing a few weeks ago. It was pretty obvious that John Swinney is not a fan, as he backed a long standing SNP member for selection as candidate. Swinney made specific mention of his long standing activist background. I think it was a swipe at Ahmed-Sheikh. She has risen far in the SNP after only a few years. I have no idea what she is like, but the warning signs are there that she is a careerist imo. I hope the SNP are not putting style before substance.
Jeaniie, The lead singer of Runrig is/was, or tried to be, a Labour politician.
I do agree that a concert should be held, maybe late, afternoon?, maybe it will attract a lot of don’t knows and no’s who can get the message.
Please stop with the conspiracy theories, we know it happens and you can take some comfort, as I do, that if you were there, you know the correct [approx.] figure of attendance and that the establishment, be it the Police, council or the pro unionist press are lying.
Now you know for a fact that they’re lying and more importantly we had a few undecided voters on our bus who now know they’re lying.
The job we have to do is to inform each and everyone of the don’t knows and maybe no’s that they’re being misinformed by the pro unionist press and to also inform them of the benefits of Independence.
Let’s make it clear, we’re not going to get help, or an impartiality from our press, so get over it and move on to work harder for a YES vote.
Boots on the ground and information will do our work not our press.
Don’t worry Doug, the Death Stare contract has been recalled ! 🙂
Very disappointed not to meet any new wingers. We got to the Albanach at about 11:30 but no flag and didn’t recognise anyone, so we just marched with the Kirriemuir SNP branch. Did meet a few wingers I already knew like Gav and Clydebuilt but couldn’t see the flag at the rally. (Hope they recognised my banner rather than me since I have lost over 4 stone since last year 🙂 )
Not so bothered about the badge cos like I said previously, in my spare time I’m working on a personal 3D version. Unfortunately I have been busy sculpting other things, but hope to get it finished before we go off for another holiday in Germany in a couple of weeks.
Re general march comments.
I estimated the crowd on the hill to be between 15,000 and 25000. Couldn’t be any more accurate than that because of the dreadful topography. For example the main stand available area was small which means that the crowd there were bunched up to old derby day football terracing levels, I’d say approx twice the packing density in that section as existed for last year’s at the Ross pavilion. If it were in a normal park type venue the crowd would have been more uniformly spread and covered a much larger area.
BTW, I think the venue choice was a predictable, indeed predicted, mistake and not just from the crowd estimating POV but also simply in terms of the crowd being able to see the stage. Even a smooth conical hill would have been a bad choice from that perspective. If anything a ‘natural amphitheater’ with the stage lower than the audience makes more sense.
I know Calton Hill is the lefties’ favoured venue but hey, that’s their call.
A park would be better. Leith Links?
Last year’s march two guys with clickers in Prince’s St Gardens got 9,500 within a couple of hundred from each other and that didn’t include families with buggies or folk in wheelchairs etc who were directed round to the ramp gate near the pavilion or, of course, those who left at the park entrance rather than stay for the speeches. Another unofficial guy with a clicker up on the Mound got about 12,000. My estimate using the pic from the esplanade (I counted 31 X 31 heads, called that area a thousand and extrapolated it, allowing a little for perspective, gave about 9000). There was a film made at the gate if someone can be bothered counting. There is a very speeded up fun version where it is condensed to 3 minutes, if someone is a very fast counter:
We went through about 2:09.
I think the Rev. and someone from NNS should have had a slot, of course they should, but the egos which pull the strings have deluded themselves into thinking their ultra PC polite approach is wot will win it. How they can think that when they have presided over a fall in support for independence from around the mid 50%’s (c 2007) to about 40% – well, that’s the power of self deception for you.
In 2003 the SNP were on a sack cloth and ashes draped internalised blame binge – many thought they might drop independence all together, it was the die hard pro-indy faction. – proto cybernats, if you like, who reinvigorated the call for independence with rallies and so forth. But that doesn’t fit in with the script, does it?
OK, I understand the difficulties faced by the career politician, the political kettling capability of a hostile, corrupt unionist coalition and the collusion of a politically cleansed MSM, but, IMO, they need to get much more aggressive, now and not when it looks like desperation.
Back to the rally. IMV there needs to be a much bigger team of organisers for next year with a clear milestone roadmap and division of responsibilities to groups with the relevant expertise in each field. It needs to be massive.
Chic,
You know Leith links isn’t such a bad suggestion, and the march could assemble at regent terrace (huge area) and walk down Leith walk or easter road. Downhill ALL the way, and no steps.
cath,
You make a very good point. It is important that it is a unified event, and there is not too much of separate groups doing their ‘own thing’. Well said.
@ AllyPally – Just remember that at any time you can go back to your newly opened Gravatar account and add any other suitable photo. I changed mine recently to a budgie hating Irish unicycler but it had no response so I reverted to type. 🙁
Looks like DF Concerts have experience of Leith Links.
link to dfconcertsandevents.com
Now, for the avoidance of doubt, is this a WoS initiative ? or are we hoping that the YES Scotland team pick this up ? Kendo says “I think Wecando” …why not, If we can run a country we can surely run a Concert 🙂 ??
Sorry, but having the main rally in Stirling or Leith would be exactly what the unionist wanted.
Out of sight out of mind.
The full length of Princess street is where YES rallies should be.
I have no doubt a rally in Glasgow, 1 or 2 months before hand, would also work wonders.
You couldn’t get more ‘high profile’.
We’re all going to need to again double if not treble the number of people we bring to the march next year. Maybe those that can afford to run free buses and rely on donations should do so which would allow those that want to attend but cant due to not having the fare.
I would also like to see Yessers in the central belt turn over a spare bedroom to those that want to attend but cant afford accommodation on top of their fare! We have a very comfortable spare room!
I have a website which I would happily organise the latter through although I think in this case big is best and more trusted.
Suggestions and advice welcome.
muttley79 – yeah, I saw an official-looking photo of some of the more weel-kent marchers, and TAS was hanging about beside Nicola, so I suspect she’s wormed her way into the good books there. I can’t help feeling her rise has at least something to do with the fact she’s both female and non-white, thus making her an attractive candidate for any political party. But the first time I saw her speaking publicly, at the 2012 Spring SNP conference, she was genuinely the most lacklustre speaker of the whole weekend (that I saw, anyway). I mean, maybe we’re wrong and she’s great, but she certainly does scream all the warning signs of a careerist, and her selection as 3rd on the SNP’s Euro election list has actually made me seriously consider voting for the Greens next year instead, even though the SNP are in a far better position for taking the Lib Dems’ almost-certain-to-be-vacated seat.
After reading about TAS doing almost as many flips as Alastair Darling I now dont feel so bad about finding myself ignoring her speech on Saturday.
It was the epitome of Blah Blah Blah.
@Chic McGregor
I think the Rev. and someone from NNS should have had a slot, of course they should, but the egos which pull the strings have deluded themselves into thinking their ultra PC polite approach is wot will win it. How they can think that when they have presided over a fall in support for independence from around the mid 50%’s (c 2007) to about 40% – well, that’s the power of self deception for you.
The difference is though that in 2007 the SNP were only able to form a minority administration at Holyrood. A majority and hence a referendum looked a long way off. Therefore, the high polls for independence could be read as an aspiration, rather than as a realistic development in the short term. By 2011 we knew the referendum was going to take place. As SS has said voters in Scotland got a little worried for a time. Since then we have had sustained hostility form the MSM in Scotland, as well as the Unionist parties here. We have also had the Jubilee and the Olympics.
In 2003 the SNP were on a sack cloth and ashes draped internalised blame binge – many thought they might drop independence all together, it was the die hard pro-indy faction. – proto cybernats, if you like, who reinvigorated the call for independence with rallies and so forth. But that doesn’t fit in with the script, does it?
No offense, but I think Salmond’s return as SNP leader was much more important than rallies and die hard indy factions were at that time in getting the nation to this point.
OK, I understand the difficulties faced by the career politician, the political kettling capability of a hostile, corrupt unionist coalition and the collusion of a politically cleansed MSM, but, IMO, they need to get much more aggressive, now and not when it looks like desperation.
I sympathise with this view to an extent. However, if the Yes campaign does get aggressive at this point I am not sure what purpose it would serve. The media will not get anymore sympathetic anyway. Also, I suspect most voters in Scotland will only really pay attention from the publication of the White Paper onwards. Even then, there will be a significant number of voters who will probably only really focus on the referendum during the official campaigning period next year.
I think the reason the YES campaign is not directly involved, is because the rally organisers have stated they wish to make it a ‘people’s event’, free of ANY political group.
This, I think, is absolute mince.
A Yes Rally needing or wanting to distance itself from the Yes Campaign?
The blooming Yes campaign (and various SNP folk) spoke at the Rally! 😀
No, I think it’s just that Yes is not renowned for having the slickest, most seamless organizational skills (don’t want to snipe but I think we can agree on that. Personally I hope to god they get their act together at some point).
Stuart, would you have any objections to readers producing WoS flags?
if you are hapoy with that could you release the image ot tell us what cplour the background was?
It looked very cool and would love to have one for next year.
Gallowglass
@naebd
As Margo said “Excuse me, who’s this they?” Their act is your act.
The scottish police federation twitter account just tweeted that its members were kept busy policing a march of 20000 at the weekend.
Interesting tweet from Stewart Hosie
Abertay Uni debate vs George Robertson. Before Yes 21% No 59 D/K 20. After debate #Yes 51% No 38 D/K 11. 250 students attended. #VoteYES
Handclapping
Nice to see you are still with us.
I had fears when I saw an ambulance going down the hill. You were quite pecked and if you climbed the Hill on your own two feet, I doff mon chapeau.
@ Doug Daniel – Am I missing something here? With regards to Nicola Sturgeon in your words:
I can’t help feeling her rise has at least something to do with the fact she’s both female and non-white, thus making her an attractive candidate for any political party.
Can you explain what you meant by that? Especially the non-white comment.
@ Desimond – It seems you are in agreement with Doug Daniel regarding Nicola Sturgeon and her blah blah blah speech. Can you explain to me [ignoramus] what TAS is and why you suggest ‘worming in’ is applicable.
Indeed Bugger. Just sent you a pic btw.
@BtP
Thank you for your concern, its galling being passed by 3 year olds. I made it up to the TV camera by the tent but they didn’t want my picture. Next year we should have it in Easter Road and Hibs can play on the hill.
Archie no Erchie, it was Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh he meant…
@Handclapping
You were looking quite peely wally mate! Glad to see to you OK.
@ Conan – Thanks for that. I was just about to blow a fuse. Apologies to all
@Doug Daniel
Yes, I agree. I don’t think she has convinced everybody in the SNP of her commitment (particularly John Swinney it seems!). I am not a SNP member, but I would be suspicions of her motives, given her track record with other parties. It is like kids who change supporting football teams depending on their fortunes.
@Archie
TAS means Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh.
i thot she was great on saturday
Kendomacaroonbar and Doug daniel
Just for the record Eddie Reader is really only rated to me in my mind. She was a niece of my Sister. I was mildly abused by my Nephew on Sunday for not talking to her.
Sorry Kendonmacaroonbar, on another post I missed you off my Role of New Friendship thanks post. Grievous error as I do have to thank you very much for your company most of that day. Thanks again for pouring Cider down my throat at strategic intervals.
I suppose I have become to obsessed with TJaeannie.
James McLaren (aka Bugger ((the Panda))
HANDCLAPPING
DOUBLE PLUS GOOD!
@ Doug and Desimond – My fault, I should have gone back to Mutley’s post way back to pick up the thread. I am indebted to your forgiveness.
ed miliiband backstabs his brother, alexander backstabs his sister. honourable members would steal the sugar from their grannies tea in their crusade to help the poor and vulnerable. its what they came into politics for. such devotion
BTP,
It was an absolute pleasure to share some time and a small libation with you sir !
Memo to self…..I need to try and figure out an independence cocktail 🙂
Conan
Just back in the melting Pot on Boulevard Strasbourg after a bugger of a journey. The Captain at Amsterdam Airport refused to accept the plane from the ground crew because of a oil leak. 27C here today and came home wearing a woolie simit.
I don’t have my computer in TLS so i will send the flag waving photies when I get access to my notebook later in the week.
Need to do this agin, like in November, in Glasgow?
James McLaren (aka Bugger ((the Panda))
A wee bit off topic, but I have just noticed that all my posts on the Scotsman web site are now blocked!!!!! I must have been upsetting someone.
naebd @503pm
Sorry to hear you think my comment is in your words “absolute mince”, but i actually took it from the march organisers own website, the link to which I included.
However, as you clearly have difficulty grasping technicalities, like oh i don’t know, the truth, here is the link again;
link to independencerally.com
Just in case you have problems making enough effort to click on the link, let me quote from the website to make it really, really easy for you;
“We are not aligned to any one political party and whilst we interact with several political parties, groups and organisations we are independent in our approach to the organisation of the event and have one mission – to work towards the biggest gathering of supporters of Scottish Independence – this is your event – A PEOPLE’S EVENT.”
As regards your wee rant about YES Scotland, if you think it isn’t good enough, get involved, offer to help. They need volunteers. Maybe if you do get involved, you will get a better understanding of why they work the way they do.
It’s really easy to sit at a keyboard moaning about YES Scotland. It doesn’t mean you are even remotely correct. Oh, and NO, we don’t all agree with your comments about them, btw.
2 months before the referendum next year – it will be the commonwealth games. So if you get tickets, be sure to take a few YES banners wrapped in your saltire. I’m sure just about every other nation competing will have lots of helpful, handy and friendly advice on offer about “separating” from the UK.
for muttley and everyone else who had trouble hearing Ruth Wishart properly last year: link to youtube.com
Doug mentioned the great overlap of speakers between last year and this one, and I saw that as soon as the website was updated with the attendees. For my money, Allan Grogan, Elaine C Smith and Aamer Anwar were the three best speakers. I heard some people complain that Anwar was too “shouty” but 1) not everyone is soft-spoken and 2) there was plenty to be rightly pissed off about; nothing against passion. I thought Wee Eck was very lacklustre last year and Saturday’s speech was much better, fourth best speech of the day for me. Canavan’s speech was a good rallying call but little else. In hindsight I agree that they could have omitted Blair Jenkins and gotten someone like Wishart instead. I think Lesley Riddoch would be a good choice for next year’s lineup if she was willing.
@ PRJ – Sorry about that but if you are Scottish and have an opinion that uses emotive words such as :
However
I would like to point out
Negative
Scary Biscuits
Keech or Cac
…….then you are doomed and blocked for all time, or until the Hootsmon sinks into the midden of its own making. Join us here on the WOS matrix and enjoy a higher readership than that rag called Scotsman.
Callum,
Good point. Almost by definition, just about every nation competing has at some stage attained independence from London rule. Could be interesting.
@ Robyn – Quine fae Torry, oops I think I may have caused a wee bit confusion, I meant that I’d like both the Delgados and Arab Strap to reform!!
I was wondering if one of the performers (Lou Hickey?) was the poor girl subjected to the Cathy Newman Horror Show last week?
The second photo in this link is really good fun in a ‘Where’s Wally?’ kind of way. It must have been taken not too long after we started getting in line – see if you can spot yourself!!! link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
The march was not that quiet. When I was waiting for the Dundee crowd to come down to the start position I heard a few individual pipers dispersed throughout the long procession. Lots of people blowing whistles and waving to all the passers by.
I enjoyed the day greatly, and also congratulate the organisera, but spent 30 minutes queusing for a cup of coffee. Small price to just saying saying.
The Meadows gets my vote for next year, though just a thought, if its timed for just a couple of weeks before the vote, should we all not be out canvassing and leafleting and arranging lifts to the polling station for definite Yes voters?
@ Archie [not Erchie]
My recent tact was:
Please provide evidence or reference
and failing to provide fact.
They obvoiusly taking a huf and can’t deal with the truth.
muttley
I’m a big fan of Alex Salmond and do not underestimate his importance on the political front, that is not the point though.
And I am not going to list here the errors made or the reasons for my opinion stated. It would not benefit the cause.
I will say though, that the main reasons for both an SNP majority and for the drop in support for independence were, somewhat ironically, outside the influence of either SNP politicos or the cyber community.
So I will admit to having been a bit naughty in implying the drop in independence support was mainly down to the PC approach. That was for impact reasons. In fact I do understand that a demonstration of safe hands was an absolute requirement to maintain support for independence and the SNP in government have accomplished that.
I do not believe that the drop is significantly due to the focus shift you suggest either, although there may be an effect in both directions. At best, a tertiary effect I think. Nor is it even the, IMO, more significant, if routinely predictable, scaremongering campaign of the corrupta but was rather, down to the ‘outwith control’ economic events associated with the credit crunch. These were manipulated to political advantage, for all they were worth, by Brown and Darling of course, but they couldn’t have done so were it not for the events which ensued.
What I am saying is that if the CC had not happened and the bank propaganda smears therefore not possible, I doubt if the drop in support would have been significant nor Project Fear nearly as effective. So in that pre 2008 scenario, pretty much all that had to be demonstrated was a safe pair of hands. But that is not where we are.
With the legacy of events, IMO, as well as demonstrating a better quality of governance, the Yes campaign will need to demonstrate anger, passion and grit as well.
Niceness will not be enough.