Map Ref. 55°N 5°W
About 11 minutes and 30 seconds into last night’s Scotland 2014, Labour MP Gemma Doyle repeated one of the strangest arguments Labour use against independence. Having first denied that she’d ever seen any polls suggesting that the people of Scotland wanted to get rid of the Trident nuclear weapons system, she then fell back on the curious but much-used Labour line that getting rid of it would only move it “100 miles or so down the road”, and therefore be pointless.
There are all sorts of glaringly obvious flaws in that argument. One is the de facto case that the UK actually has nowhere else it can put Trident, and therefore if Scotland expels it the rUK will become a non-nuclear-weapons state by default.
The second is that even if there was somewhere for it to go, Scotland still wouldn’t be paying for it any more, which would be a huge benefit to the Scottish budget and a pretty good reason entirely aside from the moral and safety issues.
And the third is that Gemma Doyle doesn’t appear to know where England is.
Above is a map, from this very handy site, of a 100-mile radius from HMNB Clyde. If you click on the image you can zoom in and move around, and what it shows is that 100 miles from Faslane doesn’t even get you out of Scotland (except for one very small corner of a field north-east of Gretna), far less to anywhere that you could station a nuclear submarine.
The BBC article we’ve linked in paragraph 2 listed all the theoretical possibilities for a replacement Trident site, then pretty much immediately dismissed them all as impossible. Barrow-in-Furness, for example, would only be useful if we could persuade our enemies to attack when there was a high tide. But for the sake of diligence and completeness, the approximate distances of each from Faslane are:
Barrow-in-Furness: 218 miles
Milford Haven: 447 miles
Devonport: 523 miles
Ile Longue: 697 miles
King’s Bay: 4,000 miles
All of those, incidentally, are far beyond the damage range of any nuclear warhead in use today. The newest generation of Russian nuclear submarine is designed to carry missiles with warheads of just 150 kilotons. That’s enough to really spoil your day if you’re right underneath it, but it’ll barely break windows four miles away.
(Modern nukes are designed more for precision than mass slaughter, to pander to the endearing fantasy that they could be used for some military purpose without utterly destroying the entire planet.)
Even punting Trident just 100 miles down the road, then – even though that would in fact still leave it in Scotland – would still be a big boon, on top of the big economic benefits. (There’d be lots of other stuff to worry about, of course, but at least the threat of immediate vaporisation would be off the table.)
But more to the point, submarines aren’t a lot of use on land. You can’t stick them in the car park of a Tesco Extra near Carlisle. You need water, and water inside very specific and narrow parameters at that. Labour know getting rid of Trident is a popular policy, which is why they still pay it lip service. But since a No vote can never bring it about, what comes out of those lips is a tissue of lies.
Gemma Doyle appears to be vying against the likes of Jimmy Hood for the stupidest SLAB MP award. Stiff completion indeed.
Sacre Blue, Ile Longue would be the place – just over the channel – the home of fellow nuclear power France, OIU!!!!
That one Scotland really wants Trident poll stank of BBC/MOD and GCHQ. They’re all making the most of it too.
Westminster really should be getting its nuclear act together instead of blethering about it. The time is rapidly running out to buy a berth elsewhere.
I just went over to Scottish CND’s site to see what they were saying. They’re summing up their point of view as follows:
How to disarm a nuclear bomb
Tools: 1 pencil
Instructions:
1. Go to your polling station on 18 September 2014.
2. Collect a paper – “Should Scotland be an independent country?”
3. Using your pencil, write an “X” in the box marked YES.
jeez but I’m glad you’re on our side Rev.
” I’m for and against Nuclear weapons, I support Multilateral, Unilateral, Blah, blah, blah …”
Gemma Doyle?
Is she standard opposition from the No camp?
Does she have a very large clockwork key on her back?
Laura Vivanco…………. use a pen please they can’t rub it out and change it !
The whole Trident thing is just a complete no-brainer, if anyone uses Trident as an example of benefits to Scotland, I just switch off. I can’t even debate with people so wilfully blinkered they would rather Scotland is used as an ammo dump for the Brit Govts pathetic lap dog style of keeping in with the warmongering elements in America, than use the money spent on those nukes for the common good. People like that obviously don’t care about Scotland.
I guess the test of hiding a nuclear submarine under Skye Bridge turned up negative. The top MOD brains are working on this.
This is just another instance of Slab’s “politicians”, it does not matter if they are thicko’s.
“Do you hate the SNP, you do, then that is fine, sign here!.
Vernon Coaker, Labour’s shadow defence secretary, said: “Labour is committed to ensuring Britain retains a minimum credible nuclear deterrent, which we believe is best delivered through a continuous at sea deterrent.”
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/trident-fury-scots-hit-public-3795645
Gemma Doyle does know where England is.
It’s the place where she works, in Westminster.
It’s the place where she earns a rather whopping salary, with lots of expenses.
It’s also the place where her party, Labour, has adopted get tough policies on the poor and the vulnerable.
Remember now Gemma?
….Oh that England!
O/T – Alistair Darling/Jenny Marra caption competition open at the Courier site:
http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/local/dundee/fears-raised-about-research-funding-under-independence-1.451149
Entries welcome.
Chris G says:
Yes, you are right, but come the time, it is going to cost a fortune to clean up radiation in quite a number of sites across Scotland. It is hugely important that they are made accountable for their mess.
From Dounray, to Machrahanish!
The SG better be on their game, for if they let them walk away from this, it will cost us very many millions if not even much more than that. Even then, can we trust them to actually do it right? Better we take the actual costs from our “debt”, and undertake ourselves with world professionals.
To repeat an earlier posting.
My chat with retired Rear Admiral Parry at Hay on Wye book festival elucidated his comment that after independence the boats would be based at King’s Bay, Georgia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Submarine_Base_Kings_Bay.
ban trident now and let England deal with it
There is a possible base for the nuclear weapons and subs.
The white Cliffs of Dover can be easily tunnelled and made into large underground caverns, James Bond style. Very fitting for the secretive culture we live in.
Robert Kerr
The missiles are due for a refit and will be rotated whilst being based there.
Scotland wants nuclear weapons…The unionist establishment, once again telling us what to think!
Laura Vivanco…love its simplicity!
That Labour MP Gemma Doyle could justify a commitment to spending on nuclear warfare on the same day as it was announced there are 820,000 people living in poverty in Scotland is disgraceful.
Fergus Green
Caption competition.
“Alistair Darling and Jenny Mara watch the birth of new shite at BTHQ”
@Laura Vivanco
Shouldn’t we all be taking our own indelible biros along to the polling booth?
I simply don’t trust voting with pencil this time.
I’ve checked and there is nothing to stop you taking a pen in and voting in ink.
@ Robert Kerr
Unless the Brits beg the French to share a base for the subs (think of the humiliation) then there’s nowhere else in the Atlantic for them to go.
@Fergus Green 4:59pm
“And for the unfamiliar, here you can clearly see the backbone”
Rev, 55N 5W would be somewhere quite near Cairnryan, which is still not far south enough 🙁
Please tell ’em to park further away!!!
simply dock them up the front bench condems arses Simples
Vestas
There’s a handy naval base in Spain.Can’t remember who controls it but everybody,in the west,uses it for nukes.
@Murray McCallum
I thought the MOD tried to hide them under Skye the other year.
Fergus Green
“Alistair Darling and Jenny Mara watch another Labour parliamentary candidate being lobotomised.”
When you read the link to the BBC article from 30th June, one thing stands out for me – in Wales they would have had to close the refineries and energy infrastructure to accommodate the subs, and the result would likely be an increase in home rule sentiment. In Scotland we have been denied a West Coast oil industry BECAUSE of these subs.
We REALLY should be pushing this point more prominently, as a reason to be rid of them. A West Coast oil industry would pull hundreds of thousands of people out of poverty – as it did in Aberdeen and its surrounds.
Bigdrone says:
Having had a house in Brittany for 5 years I can say that my French neighbours would have something to say about that.
Funny enough there are many similarities with Scotland/ UK, Brittany/France. Both were the last to be sucked into the bigger power. Bretons( are Celtic, which you will probably know). Their nuclear submarines are about the furthest away from Paris at Brest. Same as Faslane/ London.
These colonial powers all seem to work the same way!
cynicalHighlander
Wrang subs.Still it proves they don’t know their left from their right.
Standards have dropped at the Faslane flying school.
@ goldenayr
Spain won’t let the Brits base subs there. Visiting is one thing but Spain got rid of US nukes back in the 1980s and I doubt they’re keen to base Brit nukes 😀
@goldenayr
Alistair Darling and Jenny Mara watch another Labour parliamentary candidate being lobotomised.”
HAHAHA that’s a winner!
Gemma Doyle’s constituency is one of the poorest areas in Scotland and she voted for the welfare cap.
She was in Clydebank shopping centre when I was on the YES stall and one of the young guys challenged her on that – she had no answer. Well she did, she packed up her stall and left.
I would have been arrested if I had challenged her.
Career politician – uni, Labour party researcher, MP before she was out of her 20s.
Can you tell I have utter contempt for her?
Given these nuclear missiles are used only from subs, and given those subs are functioning whilst at sea, there really is no reason why they couldn’t (if England was stuck) berth them in the USA. The home port really isn’t too important.
Fergus, I notice Ms Marra invokes the old ‘a Dundee scientist expressed serious concerns’ ploy. Y’know, nae name nae verification. And what research is taking place in that lab? Looks like Darling has grown gills in the photo. Another day and another fear story.
DocFin says:
Yes I saw that too, in the photo with Darling, whoever, it looked to me more like his halo had slipped. Divine intervention LOL! Scary!
Fergus Green – Is the lovely Kezia saying, hyperventilatingly breathless, to the Eyebrowed One ‘I’m sorry Darling, but we’ve looked and looked and used real microscopes and everything and we still can’t find any reason for Scotland to stay in the union’.
I don’t think hiding the UK’s nuclear subs under Skye Bridge was a good idea, but I’m not in the MOD and don’t have access to all their top intelligence.
I guess the advantage of a bridge is that you can tie the sub to one of the reinforced concrete pillars so it doesn’t float off when everyone’s in the pub or asleep.
The USA seems the best site for me, especially since they ultimately control their use.
@Grouse Beater says:
Gemma Doyle?
Does she have a very large clockwork key on her back?
On the other thread today (Where the sun shines brightly) JamesS says “why are so many ‘ordinary’ members of the public turning up wearing rucksacks?”.
After I read JamesS’s question, I began to wonder if the rucksacks were perhaps being used to hide the large clockwork keys …
@Steve @Truth Maybe I’m naively trusting, but I’ll be marking my X with a pencil. All the same, you’ve got me thinking about this. As far as I can remember, those pencils make quite dark marks on the paper, especially if you press hard. It would be difficult to remove them completely, and if anyone tried it would look extremely suspicious at the count. Secondly, to make the changes, someone would have to open the ballot box. If they were doing that, couldn’t they just spoil a few of them so that they wouldn’t be counted at all?
@Les Wilson Were you thinking of the costs of decomissioning nuclear power stations? The UK Government’s decided to build new reactors in England, so if Scotland stays in the Union, we’d eventually have to contribute to the costs of decomissioning those too, even though we’re moving away from nuclear.
Maybe you were also thinking of places like Dalgety Bay?
@Alan McHarg I really liked it too: simple and funny.
Vestas
Yup,another “DOH” moment for me.
She’s been looking at the weather map.
The point is as the REV has mentioned many times, is that it is against International Law to base ICBM carrying Nukes anywhere apart from their “home” nation. If we vote YES then they have nowhere to go therefore they will have to be scrapped. (Mind you I don’t know where they will base there rusting hulks post YES as we wont let them use Rosyth anymore, and in fact we should tell them to take the hulks already lying there down south)
What about placing these submarines outside of the House of Commons on the Thames? What’s Sauce for the Goose is Sauce for the Gander. That arch Brit Andy Murray is out of Wimbledon. Ah well, you can always go round with Jim Murphy and Alistair Darling convincing people we are better together. Traitor.
Stephen.
Fergus Green
“Labours top scientists at work on their latest project,inserting a cuboid in a spherical orifice of a smaller diameter.”
@ bugsbunny
Er naw hes no a ("Tractor" - Ed) and ye shouldny really believe whats in the papers, that’s one hard lesson I have got from this campaign.
Unhelpful comment imho.
DocFin
I thought he was being portrayed as having ‘alighted from above’. 🙂
Caption competition.
AD: Hmmm. This new, genetically enhanced HMG Better Together No Thanks BBC CBI EC No Borders beastie, does have awfy broad shoulders.
JM: Pity it’s got three asses though.
Bunter says:
@ bugsbunny
Agreed.
Murray McCallum says:
at 4:55 pm
I guess the test of hiding a nuclear submarine under Skye Bridge turned up negative. The top MOD brains are working on this.
No way that will ever work Murray cause they have a tendency to keep running aground. 😛
http://tinyurl.com/34lw4l4
Barrow in Furness might be the next best location, located as it is almost as far away from London as possible. The entirety of Wales is closer. A brief glance at a map shows some features that might make it just as sheltered as Faslane if not moreso.
OK so Blackpool might be a bit unlucky and if it does kick of then a few scots on holiday might be caught in the blast but it’s a bit better than now.
Les Wilson
Snap.
Well done, bugs, for being first to make a predictable comment on Andy Murray.
Courier Caption competition:
“let me get this straight… We went to all that trouble to harvest Thatcher’s DNA to put into Miliband, but found his DNA was already an exact match? Uncanny!”
The thing is there’s even more to it than Faslane simply being a target for Russian/Chinese/North Korean/Al Quaeda nuclear weapons: by far the nearest and most present danger is not attack, but accidental detonation. Since there are 200 warheads stored at Faslane, that’s bad news.
It was never going to be a quick flash of cleansing nuclear fire, it’s going to be a slow haemorrage of deadly radioactivity. Look at this map from another nuclear accident, Chernobyl:
http://wineeconomist.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/chernobyl_fallout1.jpg
Then consider there’ve been almost 300 “safety incidents” at Faslane & Coulport. Then consider the number of times those submarines have collided or run aground. THEN consider the UK government has passed motions to absolve the MOD from any responsibility in the event of disasters caused by military malfunctions.
Get this out of my country NOW.
Vestas
We exchanged posts earlier and I said I thought the BBC had said the cost of the 2 aircraft-carriers was £6 biilion–a cost which you exposed convincingly as rubbish.
CameronB Brodie @4.57 gives a link to the Daily Record which also quotes the cost as £6 billion, so it seems that this is the MOD deliberaly supplying a figure which is far from the truth.
Is this the same Mrs Doyle from Father Ted?
“just you vote No now, go on go on go on!!”
I don’t care where they put Trident just get it out of Scotland. Is there anywhere else in the world that has such a high concentration of warheads close to it’s biggest population centre? And I do believe it contributes to higher rates of cancer in the west.
Flipper looks like the wee dinosaur oot Jurassic Park with that thing roon his neck.
You know, if the UK actually could fire the missiles in Trident without someone else’s say-so, I wouldn’t be anywhere near as opposed to them having it: When was the last time a nuclear-armed country got invaded?
The problem with Trident is that the UK is footing the bill for an American nuclear deterrent, and one which America has said they’d rather they didn’t pay for.
A comment I got on a doorstep about retaining Trident was ‘in case we are attacked by North Korea!’
I pointed out if that was the case the projectile from them was on it’s way and no amount launches from us (or the US) would stop it/them.
………..and it’s goodnight from them and goodbye from us!!!
Does anyone know the price of clearing Dalgety Bay and Clyde ? Will these be part of the calculations post indyref with reference to accepting a share of the debt.
Dear rUK Government,
Following your failure to honour the wishes of Scotland we have to inform you that if your WMD’s are not removed immediately we will assume that you have relinquished ownership rights. In that instance the aforesaid WMD”s will be offered for sale to the highest bidder.
Yours Sincerely
iScotland
Chris Silver says:
Does anyone know the price of clearing Dalgety Bay and Clyde ? Will these be part of the calculations post indyref with reference to accepting a share of the debt.
I don’t think anyone has gone that far into the Dalgety Bay, Lossiemouth and D&G coast radiation clear up costs Chris but don’t worry I’m certain Gordon “I saved the world” Brown is on the case as we speak. If he isn’t then he must be doing something very very important like counting all his money in his counting house! 😛
They have plenty of places they can put the nukes so dont fall for that old one ,but they would be near heavily populated areas of England which would cause a backlash to any political party that decided to put them there,thats why they put them in Scotland in the first place.
Robert Lious
It is a lot more complicated because the warheads are 100% british made at aldermaston and are changed and serviced on a regular basis. The home port is very important as the missiles are removed and the warheads replaced on a regular basis. Imagine the logistical nightmare if the subs were based abroad
This is a great read, so time to pay homage to the Rev:
This article contains all the information that anyone needs to understand the nuclear weapons location argument and the failure of the Labour Party to provide ANY kind of creditable case. Apart from the excellent analysis, the Rev has provided NINE links to support his position. Brilliant writing!
Readers have confidence in the quality of material here on Wings and that is why it is becoming increasingly popular.
Oh wouldn’t it be nice to see the MSM provide the same standard and quality ?
All Labour PM’s and Labour bums useg the CND – in opposition.
Tronald Dump says while he personally doesn’t have an opinion on Scottish Independence, others say it would be catastrophic,
Phew, that’s all right then I thought he was going to tell us we’re all idiots. :0
I live in Dumfries. I don’t think moving the nukes 100 miles southwards is a terribly good idea… Anyway the River Nith is a bit shallow for submarines, and they’d only get covered in seagull shite if you parked them in the middle of Dumfries.
Goodness the papers this evening are full of ____
Fearbombing from the daily rag to the P&J ooohh dear I’m so feart!
I was talking to an undecided today and I got the ‘if we get rid of Trident we would be open to attack from the Taliban’. It’s really hard not to sound condescending when speaking to these people but they really believe this shite.
@bugs bunny
I think you took a wrong turn at Albequerque, bugs, and fallen right into a media trap.
Andy Murray has said nothing about independence, and his pretty innocent remark about Alex Salmond waving the saltire – Quote: “I was upset by the reaction to the saltire being waved.” – was deliberately spun and blatantly misreported as an anti-SNP/Yes/Alex Salmond stance. It was not.
Bad-mouthing arguably our greatest ever sportsman makes the Yes campaign appear petty – especially so when he’s said nothing either way. That was the trap.
@Helena Brown
Regarding Mike Myers supposed support for the union, if you read his remarks it is very clear he was drawn into the debate only very reluctantly and in fact gave a rather anodyne answer. Imagine asking, say, Ewan McGregor for his opinion on a close gubernatorial election in Oregon on the basis he once played a character notionally born in Portland. It’s nonsensical.
I’m not a particular fan of Mr Myers but have nothing against him either – my reading is he responded as diplomatically and as well as an unprepared and uninformed Hollywood actor could be expected.
Mike Myer has no Scottish heritage, by the way, his parents were English – which only makes the fact he was asked this stupid question all the more bizarre. Regardless of that IT’S NOT ABOUT YOUR BLOODLINES!
I cannot understand why celebrities are even asked about this. Is Frodo for or against independence? What does Elmer Fudd think?
Who gives a shit?
If weel-kent faces with a genuine interest want to get involved in the debate, fair enough. JK Rowling tossed her million-pound note into the No cap along with an owl from on high, repeating all the fascistic canards and right-wing drivel Gordon Brown had dripped in her ear – but would not deign to debate the matter. That’s high-handed, arrogant and cowardly. Contrast Alan Bissett.
The likes of Brian Cox and Eddi Reader have done public meetings and even gone on Question Time and for a non-politician that takes real guts.
I suspect Rory Bremner is capable of handling himself in a debate. I for one would be really interested to hear him try because despite his razor-sharp satire he only spouted the same old No-No nonsense. Notwithstanding, I have a feeling he would be fair-minded enough to engage in real discussion in public and not simply indulge in point scoring – now wouldn’t that could be something really worth reporting?
told her about – but once you’re in the debate, then you live with it. JK Rowling and Rory Bremner have come out for No, both citing that terrible canard about online abuse and purity from “nationalist” viewpoint –
Alibi says:
I live in Dumfries. I don’t think moving the nukes 100 miles southwards is a terribly good idea… Anyway the River Nith is a bit shallow for submarines, and they’d only get covered in seagull shite if you parked them in the middle of Dumfries.
I can confirm what you say Alibi, I’ve seen all the seagull shite whenever I visit Dumfries after my regular D.G.R.I appointments. 😉
There would be at least one good thing if they did relocate their Trident subs to Dumfries. The seagull shite in question would at least make the subs all stand out like a sore thumb! 😛
On the shallowness of the river Nith I think that must be a positive surely. I mean at least if they are all parked up on the Nith, that means they can’t go anywhere so the rest of Scotland would be safe from their eternal crashing into islands mentality that seems to have infiltrated the sub commanders mindsets. 😉
Can you just imagine the inordinately huge level of admiration and appreciation the people of D&G would receive from everyone in the rest of Scotland? We’d be heroes and heroines beyond belief. We’d be gods and goddesses in our own lifetimes. 😛
We do NOT need nukes anywhere on the planet in truth but the fact is they are here and we have a chance to get rid of them and we should take it. Who knows we might start the ball rolling for others.
Anyone who has to go on tv and lie to keep people in the dark over nukes should be made to live with them next door.
I spent years in our forces and felt we could have spent more on conventional equipment . Ours was old and worn. I was on exercise in Canada once and one of their officers said “nothing ever changes in Britain great troops always begging kit” .I thought he was being cheeky but he pointed out it was what most thought and no offence was meant to us , just our Govts .
American troops agreed. And i noticed most groundtroops in Nato WERE better equipped. That was the 80’s to 90’s
No! No! No!
The caption should read. “We’ve tried everything modern science has to offer and can’t find a single brain cell in the prospective candidate’s head. Which constituency should we choose for them?”
@Fergus Green
When is the first public trial of this anti-indy virus cure taking place?
O/T But lovely reminder
https://lenathehyena.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/aliens-act-1705-yes-thats-us-scots-the-union-bludgeon/
I understand the cost of decommissioning the warheads is £120million. If they aren’t gone on Independence Day, we should arrange that and just absorb the cost as part of setting up our new state. That would be doing the world a big favour!
@john king
Thats that sorted about the Trump, but wait … Sarah Smith’s gonnae have another crack on the Super dooper 2014 show tonight to see if he will condemn all Yes voters to hell !!
What a disaster that show is …
Early night then …
Can we all give the Andy Murray story a body swerve ?
Appart from Wimbeldon luvvies who the hell cares anyway ?
Both Scotland 2014 thingy and Scotland Tonight giving Trump wall to wall tonight. I wonder what headlines they will give the so called ”Scottish” papers tomorrow.
Don’t tune in and let them rot.
Perhaps Gemma Doyle does know something the people of County Antrim should be worried about 🙁
It appears that a lot of people are under the impression that our nuclear weapons are deterring terrorists or Russians or whatever they believe. The fact is that despite these this “Deterrent” terrorists attacks continue regardless. So why are they still being funded? Power is the answer. It’s a posture on the UK’s front. It’s also very hypocritical, the UK having nuclear weapons but going around condemning other nations that seek to built them as well. Get them out of Scotland.
I live not 10 miles from this and would gladly have it moved 100 miles. We have suffered from the leaks, spillages and dumping for over 50 years! This from Trident, Polaris and from the American submarines at Dunoon until the 90s.(which everyone forgets about)
If the UK leaves the EU and we’re dragged out with it we’ll definitely lose out on ERC funding. Another subject that No seem unwilling to touch. Whilst the UK and Scotland might both be net contributors to the EU that is only on the surface and depends on how you choose to balance the books.
when I heard Angus Robertson on Radio Scotland a couple of days ago responding to MoD claims that it is clear we need our deterent because of incidents such as what is happening in Eastern Ukraine (yeah, made no sense to me or Angus that particular argument), there was the usual question about how you can be in NATO and refuse nuclear weapons. Following this up, is why another country would want to use nuclear weapons to defend you if you’ve insisted you won’t have them on your soil.
Do listeners sit there thinking: oooh, you’re right Gary Robertson (or whoever was asking the questions), we’ll be nuked for sure if we vote to ‘separate’? I’m not sure there are that many gullible folk. So, can anyone help me understand the reason for this line of questioning. Is it just part of the death by a thousand cuts type approach? Are there more gullible people than I think, or am I missing something?
galamcennalath says:
I understand the cost of decommissioning the warheads is £120million. If they aren’t gone on Independence Day, we should arrange that and just absorb the cost as part of setting up our new state. That would be doing the world a big favour!
Don’t worry gala, if the nukes are not gone by Independence day then the answer is simple and has already been agreed to. 😉 We sell them on E-Bay starting price of,…wait for it… £1. 😛
The Voice of Edinburgh says:
It appears that a lot of people are under the impression that our nuclear weapons are deterring terrorists or Russians or whatever they believe. The fact is that despite these this “Deterrent” terrorists attacks continue regardless. So why are they still being funded? Power is the answer. It’s a posture on the UK’s front. It’s also very hypocritical, the UK having nuclear weapons but going around condemning other nations that seek to built them as well. Get them out of Scotland.
Aye well they certainly stood up to their *ahem* deterent name when those dopey *cough* terrorists decided for some still unexplained reason to *ahem* attack Prestwick airport. 😛
I am giving up following the Scottish affairs select committee.
It really is nothing more than a establishment device to back the Govt position rather than an objective examination of the Referendum and it’s consequences.
Govt says Border guards?SASC agrees.Business exodus?SASC agrees.
Kind of a Mobian resolution.
Such a waste of time watching it considering you know where they are going to arrive at.
@Liquid Lenny says: 2 July, 2014 at 5:42 pm
“The point is as the REV has mentioned many times, is that it is against International Law to base ICBM carrying Nukes anywhere apart from their “home” nation.”
There is something even more basic than that. The United Kingdom is, exactly what it’s title says it is, A Kingdom.
It is not, and never has been, a country. What’s more it is a bipartite union with demonstaively only two signatory kingdoms. Thus, upon the United Kingdom disuniting, the Nukes will be moving from Scotland, (a kingdom & country), to one of the three countries of the now independent Kingdom of England.
Ergo – a new country with no nuclear weapons. That is against the non-proliferation rules of NATO, the UN and the EU to name but a few.
Now you know why Westminster, The Union Parliament, is so insistant they, and only they, are the continued members. Good luck to them convincing their, “Friends”, in Europe that the bipartite Treaty of Union, upon disuniting, will still leave behind a unitary kingdom that is still a, UNITED kingdom.
Sorry folks O/T i know but i popped over to the wreckord and read what i thought was a pretty good point on nukes versus hundreds of hungry kids. The comments page was awash with wreckord readers DEMANDING the paper go pro independence now. I might be a wee bit naive and don’t read the rags very much but its a big seller and the pro indi comments are loud and clear.
If any of you Wingers are doing this RESPECT .
People power can change things and there is no reason whatsoever for bloody nukes . This is a big beautiful mushroom shaped own goal for bt/okuk/no/eh/what/ eehhrr whatever and we should maybe get ourselves over there and shout even louder.
The wreckord for indi would piss off the Sun. the hoots,man and really piss off Labour who use it for it’s bullshite propaganda.
Um – I was never to sure (born in England) about the benefits the Romans brought –
What has Westminster ever done for us?
@ YESGUY, this is an interesting comparison UK.gov spend site with Defence spending shooting up during Blair/Brown golden years of never ending Labour war in the middle east.
So you have Defence spend of around £24 billion under the Tories then pop, Labour get in and spending leaps up to £42.5 billion by 2010. Throw in a pair of Crash Gordon’s £3 billion per aircraft carriers that have no jets and it all adds up. They just stick it all on the teamGB national debt pile probably.
Trident took over 10 years to get operational so may not be in here
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/year_spending_1995UKbn_13bc1n_30#ukgs302
I find Labours attitude disgusting, their support for WMD’s is beyond me, here we have a party that’s mean’t to be for the people, not for weapons of mass destruction. I can understand the Tories wanting to spend a £100 billion quid renewing Trident, as its in their nature to spend taxpayers monies on what they want, and not what the taxpayer needs.
Labour however are mean’t to be a party by the people for the people, Labour have well and truly lost their way. They’ve forgotten why the party was created in the first place, and instead they’re now pandering to the middle and upper classes.
Worst of all though is the Labour party in Scotland, they’ve forgotten everything, except how to attack the SNP, nothing else seems to matter to them, you just have to watch a FMQ, to see the hatred spewed by them towards the SNP government.
The Labour party in Scotland are indeed in a sorry state.
@Chris Silver says: 2 July, 2014 at 6:00 pm
“Does anyone know the price of clearing Dalgety Bay and Clyde ? Will these be part of the calculations post indyref with reference to accepting a share of the debt”.
Have you considered that the very first nuclear Submarine spent most of it’s time being worked upon at Rosyth Dockyard? It had several refullings there too and there are several radioactive hulks still rusting away at Rosyth.
There was a case where a pipe supposed to be taking low-level waste out into the Forth leaked under an area of reclaimed dump. Far as I remember they never did find that leak. Now what do you suppose happened to the accumulated contamination under that dump?
Robert Peffers
Totally agree what you say, that was why I put “home” in quotes.
There is no continuing state, there posturizing that Scotland was extinquished in 1707 will not last two seconds in court.
I heard that Channel 4 news has a bit that Scots Catholics are for Indy. Galloway talking pish, Canavan sorted him out.
Hi Stuart,
There is a ‘better’ website (nuclear specific).
http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
It allows for the effects of wind direction.
I created a map for a Westerly wind (high probability) and for just one of the Trident warheads albeit the largest available type (455 kilotons).
Hence this represents what a potential nuclear accident might be like.
However, it should be born in mind that in the event of such an accident or strike, there is a high liklyhood that radioactive material from other warheads would be included in the fallout cloud thus greatly extending the range of lethality even if there were no secondary nuclear blasts.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7w5z1tt1cneih9w/FaslaneFallout.jpg
Rev Stu,
I know you are a stickler for accuracy but your lat/long is out by a degree in North.
(streetmap is quite good as it has a convert coord function which gives you lat/long, OS grid and nearest postcode – so quite handy).
Faslane is quite close to N56o W5o but N55o W5o is a bit inland from Cairnryan.
So the nukes would still in Scotland and still too close for me.
Rev I’m disappointed in you. You are thinking in two dimensions. You need a sphere. I’m not sure exactly how we achieve launch or burial but my theory is no dafter than Gemma’s.
I’m working on the use of all of those left over Better Together ballons (The party type) combined with the hot air ballons (Labour MP/MSP type)
The Milford Haven site has had a naval dockyard, big ordnance dumps with miles of tunnels and 20metres plus of deep water but would simply transfer them from being within 20m of me to being 10m from my sis. Oh and Milford Haven imports 25% of the UK’s LPG so strategically that’s a no no too. Basically they have no other realistic option than the Clyde which is why they’re bricking it
Channel 4 News were in Scotland there. Asking Catholics how they will vote in the Referendum.
It was a bit confusing, I didn’t really get where they were going with it.
They had contributions from George Galloway and Dennis Canavan, they also showed some film of Orangemen marching in a Glasgow street.
Will have to watch it again to see exactly what message they were trying to get out.
Channel 4 seemed ignorant of how things operate up here, And also who is against who.
More YouGov poll guff suggests Labour are ahead of SNP in voting intentions, if I have picked it up correctly on the twitter thingy.
The YouGov polls seem out of kilter with all the other polls. If the other polls are proved correct I think that YouGov should consider packing up and trying something different…open a fish and chip shop or something.
Seeing as how the No vote is in the bag – can’t see all those undecided having to bother bothering 😉
Voice of Embra said:
A lot of people are under the impression our nuclear weapons are deterring terrorists or Russians or whatever.
Good point.
In effect, the UK is already colonised by the German and Japanese car industry, American IT technology, and Chinese finance. About the only people investing in the UK, or buying anything, are Arabs, Russians, and Chinese.
So, from where, exactly, are those nukes coming?
In fact, the real enemy is the City of London, doing all it can to line its pockets and reconstruct the the nation to suit its venal interests.
Alibi
I couldn’t agree more. Dumfries and Galloway has had its fair share of radioactive waste over the years between Chapelcross nuclear power plant (not long demolished), Sellafield (formerly Windscale and Calder Hall) over the border, Dundrennan MOD facility contaminated by depleted uranium shells not to mention all the shit dumped at Beaufort’s Dyke.
Enough is enough. We want a nuclear free country and it’s as simple as that.
There is plenty work to be done between Dounreay, Dalgety Bay, Rosyth, Faslane, Coulport etc etc and I hope the Scottish Government carries out a proper survey and gets quotes for all the clean up work. It needs to be factored into the negotiations.
I read that the cleanup of Sellafield has cost 70 billion to date so we are talking serious money.
We are going to pay through the nose for the new plants with their ‘cheap’ energy. Guid piece of business for the French but I don’t want to pay for it and I am behind the SNP’s green energy agenda. We’re it not for the press the popularity of the SNP’s energy policy would be even higher.
Trident and nuclear renewal versus renewable, sustainable energy and disarmament the is one of Scotland’s strongest hands in the referendum and it needs pushed by everyone from the grassroots level right up to the First Minister.
Britain has created terrorists all over the world and has paid the price in high security. Britain is a terrorist State and should depart in good order with all their terrorist weapons and spies with them.
As for Andy Murray he allowed himself to be used and said far too much. I haven’t seen any Saltires in support of him since his rants. I hope he is happy with his new Union jack bag.
It won’t take a genius to predict the triumphalist badgering of Donald Trump tonight, but he is much smarter than Andy Murray and may not allow himself to be used. We will see.
I keep forgetting its the pro-indy side that are responsible for all the alleged online abuse.
If you still think thats the case – check out here.
(Funny how the bleating NO side and Brit/Scot media core can’t find their way to this stuff – so convenient)
tinyurl.com/ny8acmm
https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot
OFF TOPIC but has anyone had a look at what the BBC have planned for outside at Pacific Quay to clash with the BBC bias protest on 27th June?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/showsandtours/shows/date/shows/quay_stefan_gates_20140727
“Pro-independence protesters terrorise kids”.
Apologies if it has already been posted, or I’ve gone off topic too early.
Voice of Embra
Yup its those Nasty Russians that the Brit Government (Tories) are frightened off.
Wonder who the second biggest donors to the Tory party are, read this 🙂
http://tompride.wordpress.com/2014/07/02/dont-tell-mi5-but-russians-are-bankrolling-the-tory-party/
just musing. Saw mention of latest opinion poll showing quite a decent support for anti independence. Also, thinking about devo max being popular. Also thinking about D Cameron negotiating change to EU constitution, or threatening to leave. Leading me to the following:
Could Scottish Gov say that as part of their proposals for a constitutional convention (or separate from this), that they will put forward an option where people can vote to rejoin the UK under a devo max type set up, or they can vote for another option which the convention comes up with more akin to full independence. This might be the proof of the pudding on things like trident, and also cut off the BS that if you vote no, you might get some more powers; vote yes, then we’ll give you the option to rejoin the UK with more powers.
@ crisiscult – get out there like I do and talk to folk, that is the only way we will do it. Stop talking about being ruled by Westminster and start talking about how we can run our own affairs our own way.
crisiscult
Your theory is flawed in so many respects, the opinion I presume you refer to is by YouGov , read Scotland Goes Pop for details on how they are manipulating the results, its just MSM spin that says that the YES vote is falling, in fact even with all the dodgy manipulations of the data, the so called far in YES support is within the normal margin of error for that size of poll.
We are on the way to winning this referendum, everywhere I go in Scotland I feel the buzz, its going to be buzzing like a swarm of bee’s in the next couple of months.
As for Andy Murray, I am glad he is out of this years tournament. The British Establishment hijacked him. He was their tennis player.
Wimbledon became a Saltire free zone, a bit like Stirling and Aberdeen.
Andy has a good few years left at top level tennis. He can return next year knowing that Scotland voted for Independence and he can declare himself a true Scot.
Hmm are youtube links blocked at the moment?
If not, here’s a great clip of Maggie extolling the virtues of Trident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZnCck2X-5s#t=2736
Paula and Liquid – glad to hear your positivity. I’m quite positive myself. In the back of my mind I’m thinking about the desperation of the BritNats and the establishment, and what might be round the corner. Anyway, I think the Scottish Gov have approached things in the best way, offering as little dramatic change as possible as the first step (keep Queen, pound). But what is next after the MSM and the direct method (booklet to every home in the country)? We’ve had Shrek telling us to vote no. What do they have up their sleeve?
I was particularly taken by this comment the other day from the “defence experts”
We believe Britain is well placed to lead global nuclear disarmament by renewing Trident.”
There are times when WTF! just doesn’t cut it
Caz-m is wise: I am glad he [Murray] is out of this year’s tournament.
Selfish as it must sound, I agree. Safer he’s not around for the enemies of democracy to exploit for their own ends.
After all, he was playing at the ‘All England Tennis Club.’
Voice of Embra said:
A lot of people are under the impression our nuclear weapons are deterring terrorists or Russians or whatever.
Doesn’t seem to deter the Russian navy from using the Moray Firth as a handy ship parking lot.
Here’s the bottom line; it is going to cost on average £3 billion per year for the next 30 years or so to replace & maintain a new ocean capable nuclear deterrent.
But any rational individual knows it’s not a deterrent at all. It didn’t stop Argentina invading the Falkland Islands. It didn’t stop the IRA from executing a terrorist campaign for 40 years & it certainly didn’t stop any of the jihadi inspired terrorist attacks in London.
America has over 7,000 warheads but that made no difference to victims on 11th September 2001 & it failed to change the course in Iraq or Afghanistan.
And since Britain has about 225 warheads compared to the 8,000 still in Russia and a secret, unknown number held by Pakistan, China & North Korea it would take an optimist on hallucinogenic drugs to convince anyone in Britain that we would ever have the upper hand.
Really folks, can you honestly imagine the USA risking a strike on its own territories by supporting & responding to a nuclear attack on British soil by an aggressive state?
The developing nuclear threat of the Cold War is over. But in reality, a nuclear war was never likely. Everyone knows that it would have surely have led to mutually assured, total destruction.
Nevertheless, Labour & North British Labour (Scottish Division), the alleged party of the working class whose initial appeal 100 years ago was to champion the struggle of the poor & under represented, continue to support the diversion of colossal sums of money away from fighting poverty & fairness towards a complicated & expensive nuclear arsenal that will never be used.
To argue that you have to have them in order to convince others to get rid of theirs is wholly flawed. In fact that argument has failed. Iran may well soon join the unenviable nuclear club that includes the UK, the USA, Russia, France, Israel, China, India, Pakistan & North Korea. Where there were originally three members, the club is now 10 strong.
In summary then, Labour would have us spend billions of pounds on a weapon system that will never be used while making an argument that is already & permanently debunked.
Everything else then that Labour stands for is highly questionable. After all, when given the choice between helping the poor or arming one’s self with a big stick, it’s hard to give the impression that you actually work for the Salvation Army when you dress like Nikita Khrushchev.
HandandShrimp says:
The YouGov polls seem out of kilter with all the other polls
They are all based on asking just over 1000 people. Let’s face it, it all depends which 1000 people they select ie on which basis they do the selection!
It is a bit selfish about Andy today. Don;t give into the dark side because this is where we are right now in Scotland. Graun journo here wont have a clue Scotland is living his nightmare with his own take on rancid UKOK corrupt old meeja
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/shortcuts/2014/jul/02/i-saw-rolf-harris-dark-side-portrait-queen-art
“My blood is starting to boil all over again as I think about that glimpse into an era of lies. Seriously, what cultural malaise was this?”
Someone can add.
https://twitter.com/UnRoyalReporter/status/484414956734267392
Re polls YouGov are outliers.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BrfdxCpCMAIR4AX.png:large
Did anyone hear the outrageous comments by Tory Constitutional “expert” Prof Tompkins to the UK Parliamentary Committee looking into separation?
Some good coverage for Lawyers for Yes in the (English) Law Society Gazette.
Among the group’s members are solicitors Fiona Cook and Jamie Kerr, both prominent Scottish Labour Party members. Others include Edinburgh University constitutional expert Professor Christine Bell; Zenon Bankowski, professor emeritus of legal theory at Edinburgh University; and Aileen McHarg, professor of lublic Law at Strathclyde University.
The declaration is also backed by retired sheriff and former vice chairman of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Dr Robert McCreadie QC, who was one of the Lib Dems’ main negotiators on the Scottish Constitutional Convention between 1989 and 1992.
Joanna Cherry QC, a former lead counsel for Scotland’s lord advocate and the group’s convenor, said: ’[We] set up this group to show that many in the legal profession support an independent Scotland. In a relatively short space of time more than 100 fellow lawyers have signed our declaration. We have encountered many more that, for a variety of reasons, are not able make a public declaration.
http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/lawyers-for-yes-group-lobbies-for-scottish-independence/5041834.article
Question to undecided voter.
If, at this present time, Scotland was an Oil rich Independent Country and one of the wealthiest and healthiest countries in Europe and you were offered the choice in a Referendum to either stay as an Independent, nuclear free Country or join the rest of the UK.
How would you vote?
Never mind not known where England is, Ms Doyle doesn’t know where the ‘send’ button is on her email.
She still hasn’t answered my last note to her inquiring as to why, exactly, she felt she had to vote in favour of the welfare cap.
Vote YES to get rid of Trident – and Gemma Doyle!
@Sinky
Prof Tomkins comments are being pushed by the media right now. STV and the hootsmon are running with it…
@galamcennalath –
Agreed.
It’s such a blindingly obvious point that it hardly needs raising, but folk seem to imagine that these ‘random’ polls of 1000, 2000 or whatever are somehow guaranteed to reflect a broad base of Scottish/British/Whatever ‘opinion’.
They’re not.
I spoke to a man last week in Ayr (ex-SSP) who is (I have been assured by others who know him) extremely knowledgeable, well-connected, and was tipped for a bright future in Scottish politics before being blighted by serious illness.
He told me that the BBC has, for years, in the face of ever-tighter budgets, abandoned efforts to conduct or commission truly representative polls, and he knows of specific examples where staff were told to conduct the ‘poll’ outside Ibrox stadium on a Saturday afternoon. That way, you can quickly garner 1000 ‘opinions’ on any subject you like, and know for sure that it’s going to accurately reflect whatever view the status quo requires at that time.
Anecdotal, aye, but interesting all the same. Has Grouse-Beater ever heard of this alleged practise?
Sinky asks: Did anyone hear the outrageous comments by Tory Constitutional “expert” Prof Tompkins to the UK Parliamentary Committee looking into separation?
Nope.
But thanks for the link to the Law Gazette which I shall read now with alacrity. (‘Alacrity’ is not a pal!)
Documentary on at the moment on BBC4 about the Tower of London.
“If the Ravens ever leave the Tower of London, the Kingdom will fall”
Anyone down that way up for a bit of Raven thieving.
Wings must have a few agents in old London Town.
Please lay off Andy Murray, after what that boy went through and for him to go on and be a great champion we should all be proud of him. If the boy had declared for No it would have been trumpeted all over the MSM he has quite rightly kept his own counsel so we shouldn’t try and second guess him.
Also when the last monkey leaves that Rock of Gibraltar that separatist sate will join the Spanish Union.
When the last North British Money leaves Westminster …
Prof Tomkins is a much loved north Briton and all round Unionist activist. I can’t even begin to think why Davidson would invite him down to Westminster to talk to the silly committee.
@ caz _m the ravens are breed in Wales ,no more Ravens after Welsh Indy.
it would be fair to say ,judging by the media bias, tha we will never SEE a poll showing YES in the lead. It would be too much a boost and swayers want to be in the winning team.
The whole state engine will stop it so on the subject of polls i go blind and deaf.
We ar winning and we all FEEL the buzz. It’s going to build up over the next month or so and we will know ourselves by then.
And lay off Andy Murry .
What a champion he has been and if your gonna listen to what the MSM say he stated then where have you been for the last year or so???
The Boy had done us proud last year. So what if the English accept him now. HE’S ONE OF OUR BRIGHTEST AND BEST AND WE WILL NEED THEM NOW MORE THAN EVER.
Oops ranting again doh
Location: Preciptous cliff edge on windy day. Big sky.
Presenter Neil Oliver appears, long hair flying in the stiff breeze, signature satchel casually thrown over his shoulder; what it holds an eternal mystery.
OLIVER (Breathless, hyper-optimistic delivery, spoken in one go.) Ah’m trampin’ here along this cliff edge to show you how dextrous I am walkin’ an’ talkin’ simultaneously while no fallin’ over to mah death. It’s the coast of Scotland, a great coast, a very, very long coast, a coast of a coast, full of cliffs, an’ sea, an’ seagulls, an’ awe things mare, that was home to primitive man and then tribal communities. And if Scotland get’s its sovereignty back, might well regress back to primitive man again, provin’ the SNP havnae closed doon the Dark Ages. Actually, tae me, history is what Ah delete frae ma computer each night ‘ncase mah wife sees it. (Camera shifts to side view) Well, Ah’m here tae tell you life is one big, gigantic history lesson, circular fashion. Ah’m grateful fir that coz it’s given me a fantastic career sayin’ an’ dayin’ lots of stuff of no significance that even Ah cannae reemeer efter Ah’ve spoken it. (Cut to long shot showing Oliver taking silly long strides along cliff edge.) But it gies me lang elegiac, panoramic walks frae the crew Range Rover tae the rock ower there – yi really didnae think I actually was goin’ tae walk the whole Scottish coastline, did yi? I have BBC’s fat fees and residuals close tae mah heart tae spend, here in my wee satchel- oh, crap! There goes its secret!
(Oliver laughs, slips and falls backwards over the cliff edge. Three second silence. Sound of dull thud – the ratings hitting rock bottom.
@Paula Rose says: 2 July, 2014 at 7:17 pm
“Um – I was never to sure (born in England) about the benefits the Romans brought – What has Westminster ever done for us”?.
Och! Wha telt ye bein born in England maks ye Inglis?
Jesus wis born in a stable – it didna mak him a cuddy.
Ah kent a wee auld wifie wha wis born in an auld ferm cairt. It wis Mid-Winter an the ambulance culdna mak it up the snawy ferm track. It didna mak her a load o dung, but.
@ Sinky lawyers for YesI would hope they’re up for some Pro Bono work,the Media need a shot across the Bows.
JK Rowland’s abuse, Andy Murray’s abuse.
Compare and contrast the media coverage.
https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot
Stuart, I think you misunderstand the plan.
It hadn’t occurred to me before, but then plan may be for Trident to go much less than 100 miles away. To Lough Foyle In Northern Ireland.
Much better access to the North Atlantic. Jobs boost for the depressed economy of Derry, and who cares if the people there don’t like it? They never vote for any of the main UK parties, and some of their MPs have never even taken their seats at Westminster.
Win win win for the cynical power-brokers in London.
Conan that should come with a warning.. yuk
that bloody site is disgusting……. ach i need a shower.
Ah wiz laughing at Grouse beater when the page opened.
Better together my arse.
@ Robert – darling you make me proud, are you going to buy me a drink on Friday?
@Andy-B says: 2 July, 2014 at 7:25 pm
“Worst of all though is the Labour party in Scotland, they’ve forgotten everything, except how to attack the SNP, nothing else seems to matter to them, you just have to watch a FMQ, to see the hatred spewed by them towards the SNP government.”
If Christ himself was the FM and the apostles the Holyrood Cabinet. Labour would have Auld Clootie as the Labour Leader and the Hounds o Hell the Shadow Cabinet. The Red Flag would change from red to be as black as the Earl o Hell’s Waistcoat.
Re Andy Murray, he was always going to disappoint a lot of people by coming out for one side or another, in the referendum year.
Rightly or wrongly, he was quoted as saying he didn’t like the first minister waving the saltire at Wimbledon.
If it was a misquote, then he hasn’t denied it or clarified it.
What kind of message does that give to Scots?
That they should be embarrassed by their own flag, or the country that it represents?
How did he think it would go down?
He is still a great player, but I did notice that there wasn’t the same sort of general enthusiasm in rooting for him to win this year.
Slink
Lawyers for common sense and the common weal make a great read! Thanks for the heads-up.
Very reassuring, very positive, some are Labour supporters!
The tide is turning, history will be ours – gawd, I sound like Neil Oliver.
Onwards!
@ Grouse Beater
I have a hair drier I don’t need any more…
completely and utterly OT but I think this might interest a few of those who comment below the line, poor Mr. Peston of the BBC is indignant about the Google removal from it’s search list of an article he wrote – tsk tsk…. censorship, selective reporting…. I loved the comment about Irony needing a lie down after a strenuous workout.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-28130581
@ Claire McNab
Isn’t the international border, with a non-nuclear state on the other side of it, running up the west coast of Lough Foyle, a bit of a stumbling block?
Maybe not, but it might be a bit confrontational on top of all the Sellafield junk in the Irish Sea.
@sinky and others!
Prof Tomkins was involved with the tories devo report:
http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/03/15/reforming-devolution-deepening-union/
Also
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Tomkins
“Professor Tomkins is a member of the group, Republic, a British republican organisation advocating the replacement of the monarchy with a democratically-elected head of state”
I don’t think the establishment have found out about his views on the monarchy…
Conan insists: I have a hair drier
Chuckle …
thanks for the chortle, Grouse Beater (9.38pm)
@Lesley-Anne
@Chris Silver
DalgetyBay radiation will be danger to life for 1500years.
An example of this time period takes us back to Roman invasion of Britain 500AD.
Slightest slightest Uranium particle ingestion, digestion, inhalation will cause thyroid cancer. Radioactive material is worse if inside your body. Don’t eat, swallow, breath in the contaminated area.
DalgetyBay beach will only be safe if cemented-over, like Chernobyl. Will cost £millions
Avoid the area in windy days. Definately keep pets and children off. Slightest slightest particle is unsafe. Infact just avoid contaminated area forever.
ps. you wouldn’t know your contaminated till its irreversible, and its too late.
pps. Its true. It worked on Dounreay de-contamination process module designs. Read up on radiation.
leave Andy alone guys he is just trying to get bye ,sport should have nothing to do with politics so he was just trying to keep out of it ,which was the right thing to do even though the MSM were trying their best to make him stand on a side which he refused to do.
If he does have any doubts then the next few weeks abuse hes going to get from the unionists should help him focus his priorities,its already started hes no longer Britain’s wimbledon champ hes back to being that Scottish c***.
Cirsium says Ta: thanks for the chortle, Grouse Beater
Spoof inspired by the ever-annoying Oliver enthusing inanely and gesticulating spasmodially (don’t think that’s anything sexual) on yet another shallow TV history tour playing in the background as I work at my desk.
All truth passes through three stages,first it is ridiculed,second,it is violently opposed, third it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer.
Such is the way of Scottish Independence.
@Chic McGregor says: 2 July, 2014 at 7:50 pm
“There is a ‘better’ website (nuclear specific).
http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/
Chic, I spent around 15 years in Rosyth Dochyard, “RADIAC” Lab, (Radio-Activity-Detection-Indication-And-Computation).
We Tested, Repaired, Checked and Calibrated the instruments such as Geiger Counters, Scintellation Detectors and much more besides for the Government. We covered almost all MOD stuff from Newcastle northwards.
Believe me if there is a full blown nuclear incident at the Clyde Base, (and it doesn’t need to be an explosion), then the contamination, (far more dangerouse than direct radiation), would probably drift Eastward and be funneled through the Forth & Clyde valley. It would thus take out almost all of the main towns of Scotland.
Contamination can be dry, (dust), or wet and each drop of rain has a speck in it’s core. When it rains it falls where it dries out and blows about. So you drink it, eat it and breath it in. Once inside it accumulates and attacks the body by contact.
Get the picture?
225 might not sound like a lot, but the prize for 5th place seems to be a permanent UN Security Council seat. Anyone think the rUK will keep that once they have less nukes than North Korea?
O/T
How low can the UK government go…
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/02/cancer-care-nhs-outsourcing-ccgs-unison-virgin#start-of-comments
Y’know what, I think I’ll take my own black Biro to the polling station.
Don’t you just love how Westminster make all these lovely decisions about where to dump their radiation, and lo it was decided that those pesky Scots had been too pesky for too long. And lo the decision to show those pesky Scots a lesson was taken. Word came down from on high and it was so.
Those pesky Scots were gleefully informed that word had been received from on high and it had been decided that for the best benefit of the Scots they should have radiation dumped at Dalgety Bay, and other to be named at a later date sites. The Scots were not worry though because Westminster had decreed, with the agreement from on high, that the radiation to be dumped was safe radiation and would never have any adverse side affect on the good people of Scotland, it would only affect those bad evil nasty benefit scrounging YES supporting Scots who had the unbelievable intolerable ignorance NOT to believe everything as reported by the UKIP Channel and its supporting media brethren. 😛
http://www.energyvoice.com/2014/07/bp-takes-delivery-new-ships-west-shetland-work/
But the oils is running out!! Lying ……
Having experienced first hand what it’s like to live (just over) 100 miles away from not one but three nuclear meltdowns in Japan, I can say whole heartedly that that’s not something I will ever forget and am deeply saddened and more than a little scared of a similar incident happening in Scotland- either through terrorism or perhaps more likely as Taranaich suggested above, accidental detonation.
I’ll never forget, as myself and hundreds of thousands of others like me, not willing to take the MSM’s word for it- that there was no cause for alarm and that everything would be alright- fled the city of Tokyo.
I saw grown men crying in the streets. Japanese salary men who aren’t meant to show emotion at the best of times wandering around looking lost and dejected. Mothers with their wee ones in tow trying their best to stay calm for the sake of the children . I saw the looks of terror on the faces of those watching the TVs in a department store as yet another explosion and subsequent nuclear meltdown occurred.
There is absolutely no reason to subject the people of Scotland to this very real danger.
I see no reason why we can’t aim to have Trident decommissioned first and foremost, or failing that stationed at much greater distance away than 100 miles which is not nearly enough in my opinion- then to look to the phasing out of nuclear power in the longer term. That is my dream for a safer, progressive independent Scotland especially given our target of 100% renewables by 2020.
100 miles might be deemed a safe enough distance from a nuclear blast but the accumulated stress and anguish derived from the uncertainty surrounding the clean up operation and potential health scares are constant.
For latest on Fukushima for anyone interested:
http://fukushimaupdate.com/ground-under-fukushima-unit-4-sinking-structure-on-verge-of-complete-collapse/
http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/06/09/ice-wall-fukushima-nuclear
@Conan
“JK Rowland’s abuse, Andy Murray’s abuse.
Compare and contrast the media coverage.
https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot”
To be fair Conan they’re only following the lead laid down by what Kathy Wiles, Duncan Hothersall, John Ruddy, etc, imply but in more flowery language.
Maggie Vaughan, Iain Davidson, Margaret Curren, etc, are the true monkeys, it’s the organ grinders that are getting away with it.
Would’nt normally say this about someone I have never met but (Parental Advisory) Donald (the Donald) Trump is an olympic class c**t.
Nana Smith
Is this for real??
Holy shit i know i should not jump about there but this will cause a huge YES vote if thy try and do this down south.
I wanted to jump in and comment shouting “Now you want to moan about Westminster policies ” privatizing Cancer care ouch.
Cancer is the biggest killer on earth.
Surely not??
Jim Bo: 100 miles might be deemed a safe enough distance from a nuclear blast
Good post.
Scotland is such a small country, main centres of population crammed into an even smaller geographical area, that any nuclear accident would mean, at the least, vast rerouting of traffic around the no-go section. In other words, an economic disaster.
they are going off their heads Nana
02 July 2014 10:14pm
Recommend
2
If Virgin Care works like Virgin Active, you can get free towels for £6 per month when you have end-stage cancer. And that’s just the towels. For an added £8 per month we will change your bedsheets biweekly (whatever that means). If you are incontinent and wet/soil your bed, you might want to sign up for our comprehensive £39.99 deal which allows limitless bedsheets and incopads. And all this will improve our healthcare service, because what was missing in the NHS was the fake smile of a Virgin worker. All sorted.
Copied this from comments
@YESGUY
Looks like it…I’ve read some comments. People are furious and some want to join Scotland for independence.
Yes is 6.4 on Betfair. That’s a big price. Are they right?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/02/airport-security-stepped-up-al-qaida-bomb-plot
Good to know Trident’s pissing around under water somewhere, keeping everyone safe and sound. The endless teamGB war dividends from Blair, Brown and the Flipper.
I can see that Nana “Scotland here we come”
My goodness at last something to wake the English up. Boris has his water canon and a load of police, will that be enough?
This is going to help Labour BIG time if they can distance themselves from that. So guess what part the BBC will project to Scotland . Labour save NHS England or Look whats happening to the NHS England under Wasteminster.
Poor buggers . This happening now in the middle of a referendum is suicide surly.
I want to cheer but i feel sick for they folk.
@hadrianswall –
Your comment prompted me to look at oddschecker – you can now get 8/1 on the Yes vote being over 55% (with Ladbrokes).
WTF?! Something’s going on – it’s been 5/1 for months.
http://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/scottish-independence/yes-vote-percentage
Grouse Beater- thanks.
Yes, an economic disaster of vast proportions as well as the social aspect. Double trouble.
To think that we can help prevent this situation by the application of two small lines of graphite ( or ink for the more untrusting or cynical among us) on a piece of papyrus puts a big smile on my face! That and your Neil Oliver story above! 😉
@YESGUY
Absolutely I feel the same way.
Over at the daily record Gordon Matheson is urging a no vote…good grief just shows where his priorities lie. Not with poor that’s for sure.
How many foodbanks in Glasgow?
Labour brought in private companies to compete when they were in office so no free ride for them.
I apologise for going off-topic but it’s been bugging me for a while about George Robertson’s increasingly wild rants. Today’s other news reminds me why. It seems his number might be up. I will say no more.
Donald Anderson 9.20
“When the last North British Money leaves Westminster …”
Was that a typo or intentional? Either way it still makes sense!!!!!
What were the chances of that?
Nana Smith
Pretty terrifying and depressing news – nice keep thinking nothing will surprise me in politics today then a new low is revealed. If Stu gets hold of this the Scottish media will reluctantly follow at some distance. Thanks for highlighting it.
@R Type Grunt
Would Dunblane have a bearing on your guesswork ?
O/T Just a wee reminder team – the Edinburgh Wings gathering is coming up on Friday this week.
Plenty of interest so should be a great buzz. 511 is the name of the downstairs nightclub next to the Newsroom on Leith Street – booked between 7.30 and 10.30.
It means missing one quarter final but by its very nature, it is merely 1 of 4. Hope to see you all there.
@Tam Jardine
It’s sickening. Cameron’s dinners with party donors are worth a lot to the privateers.
I doubt the bbc will highlight this latest scam up here.
I would be more worried if Yes was an outright favourite at this point.
Ian Carmicheal will join the Queen at Rosyth in the naming ceremony of the aircraft carrier, HMS Queen Elizabeth. She will smash a bottle of Islay Whisky off the bow.
Being an Islay man himself, Carmicheal will be filled with pride.
It’s a pity he will miss the whole ceremony, due to his heed being stuck up Lizzie’s arse.
Ed Balls on Newsnight raving about cutting corporation tax for all types of business, good for merry England, nasty for hateful Scotland.
(No, oor ane Kirsty failed miserably to remind him of his glaring contradiction.)
“I am not contemplating any rise in corporation tax!”
“We are pro-business and I want to keep the tax rate the lowest of the G7.”
He failed to say if he was pro-struggling UK population.
Some minor editing bbc sport article to quickly remove “the Scot” in the bad news story, ooops, spotted by newsniffer http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/803370/diff/0/1
@ kendo
That’s part of it but, at least on a UK level, there’s an even bigger scandal here. Leon Brittan was allegedly the ring-master. He had a friend too, what was his name? Gordon something or other?
I would be more worried if Yes was an outright betting favourite at this point.Bookies love a favourite that comes 2nd.
@ R Type
I often wondered why Dunblane had a 100 year embargo on info… makes me wonder why Robertson allegedly gave a reference for a gun licence to a certain gentlemen
Onwards
It has been pointed out in the comments sections of this site more times than I care to remember that Andy Murray DID NOT criticise the flying of the Saltire by Alex Salmond last year, but criticised the criticism of Alex Salmond flying the flag.
I often look through pages and pages of blogs and wonder if those in power understand the power of the internet, I don’t think they get it.
30 Years ago we would believe almost anything on the BBC and wouldn’t know where to look for answers. How things have changed.
We know of the radio activity of Dalgety bay
We know of the corruption of the politicians
We know of the lies and scares of the NT campaign.
I cannot fathom why anyone would vote NO these days. Project fear to quell the natives and the unionist in this country to bully anyone who dares question them.
@Grouse Beater 9:38pm (Oliver laughs, slips and falls backwards over the cliff edge. Three second silence. Sound of a dull thud. Picks himself up and says. Thank god I was wearing my light fawin Suit. Vote Yes
@Horseboy says: 2 July, 2014 at 10:16 pm
“DalgetyBay radiation will be danger to life for 1500years”,
Half-life is just that if it’s 1,000 years that only means it halves its streangth in 1,000 years.
Radiation of any kind, even heat and light, tends to travel in straight lines and can be shielded against. Like ASDA things on offer – when it’s gone it’s gone. Not so contamination.
It can be dry, blow about and land anywhere. It gets wet and water evaporates becomes clouds and rains upon us. It gets into the water table, is absorbed by vegetation, is eaten by animals and gets into the food chain.
It gets into the body and is thus in direct contact with vital organs. So the very worst danger is contamination and you don’t even know you are contaminated. Being low level even scanning can often not detect it. It takes time but it does kill you.
Now think about Scotland. Most airfields from WWII were contaminated, most MOD property is contaminated. I’ll bet there are very few places in Scotland that are not within easy range of some place that is contaminated and, get this, contamination is cumulative. The body treats it as any other substance and it migrates to a certain part of the body – for example calcium to the bones.
Does anyone still think windmills are worse than nuclear power?
@R-Type Grunt
Be very careful about what you say on here in relation to legal matters. It really is not a good idea. Please think about what you are typing.
THIS IS OUR LAST CHANCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I
It has been pointed out in the comments sections of this site more times than I care to remember that Andy Murray DID NOT criticise the flying of the Saltire by Alex Salmond last year, but criticised the criticism of Alex Salmond flying the flag.
True, but I’ve never seen a link or any evidence to back up the claim that he was misquoted by The Times.
US to step up security at all airports that have direct flights into America. This is due to the increased threat of terrorists smuggling bombs onto planes.
http://news.uk.msn.com/increase-in-airport-security
Sorry O/T, but I have just been witnessing Ed Balls on Newsnight offering an open goal for us as he proclaims his belief that he wants the UK to have the lowest Corporation Tax in the G7. That would be the same Ed Balls who described the SG’s desire to have CT in an independent Scotland at 3p below the UK rate as being ‘a race to the bottom’, being ‘pro-business’ He can’t quite fathom that Scots can add up and be politically savvy.
YESGUY
From the Herald 25 years ago section a few years ago
Quote
An MP claimed plans are being made to create a nuclear waste burial ground inside the Rosyth Dockyard in Fife, which refits and refules Britain’s Polaris submarine fleet.
Gordon Brown, Labour MP for Dunfermline East, whose constituency includes Rosyth said it was inconceivable such waste should be stored in a populated areas of Scotland and inside a Naval base employing 800 civilians.
Dr Brown said: “It is becoming typical of the sly, underhand way the Ministry has of doing things that the only way we find out about plans like this is through leaked documents”
caz-m says:
US to step up security at all airports that have direct flights into America. This is due to the increased threat of terrorists smuggling bombs onto planes.
http://news.uk.msn.com/increase-in-airport-security
But … but … but … I thought we had nuclear weapons. Are nuclear weapons not supposed to *ahem* protect us? 😛
R-type
Mutley beat me to it there. Best not to allude to this matter other than recent quotes and then better to link.
Remember it is Stu’s blog.
Let’s just face it folks – we are the wild patch at the end of England’s garden. Whenever they want to empty their chemical toilet, where else can they go?
If you’re worried about a particular post, tell Stu about it. He can’t read everything.
Just watching Scottish questions … not usual as my blood pressure cannot handle it. Its terrible , utterly embarassing, anti Scotland agenda. Seriously, these folks need to waken up.
Jeez i f#### in despise these bastsrds.
Carmichael is dead meat in ermine. Hope it rots on his shoulder.
Fair comment guys. I have no inside knowledge on the subject other than what’s been on the Internet for decades. I shall speak no more on it though.
James123
So you believe all the pish coming out of the MSM, I guess you are on the wrong site. the actual quote that Murray said were published on various social media sites in the aftermath of the MSM onslaught a few weeks ago.
There was an “expert” professor giving his view on trident to john Beattie on Tuesday lunchtime. Missed the start of interview so didnt catch his name.
One of his views was that, upon independence, the warheads would be moved to somewhere isolated in England – he gave the example of Cornwall. I’m meeting up with some relatives from there at the weekend – I’ll pass on the good news!
Not sure how much of an expert he was though – quoting all sorts of “facts” that werent substantiated e.g. the many many years and huge cost to remove trident from Clyde.
gave up listening as it was bad for my driving…
Anyways, maybe Cornwall could be added to the list of locations (only warheads, not subs). I also note that a wee part of Northern Ireland has made it into the 100 mile radius. I wonder if rUK would consider basing them there…
@ Ian Brotherhood
There used to be a map – you’ve probably seen it; I can’t remember where it was published – of the UK as perceived by the south of England. Everywhere north of roughly the M25 was reduced to a long thin stalk containing a couple of motorways, with a wee blob at the top for Scotland.
Morag.
Stu tweeted that he was off for a nap about 4 hours ago.
‘Andy Murray has never said anything about independence, and his pretty innocent remark about Alex Salmond waving the saltire –
His quote: “I was upset by the reaction to the saltire being waved.” – was deliberately spun and blatantly misreported as an anti-SNP/Yes/Alex Salmond stance. ‘
Could someone please give me a source to verify above AM quote- very important -Thanks
He’s tweeted more than half a dozen times since then though.
It doesn’t matter anyway. Just email him with the link to the questionable post and he’ll decide if it needs zapping when he gets it.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport-environment/revealed-mod-admits-to-16-nuclear-submarine-crashes-1.1066455
Apologies if this has been posted already, and by no means am i being flippant about the lost souls, but are we really paying 100 billon pounds on WMD’s which only carry a threat to fishing boats and sandbanks ?
@Robert Peffers
As a physicist, I know how radiation works.
After graduation, I worked in the semiconductor industry in Fife in the late 70s. Some of the older engineers there had actually worked on the ‘glow at night’ instrumentation for wartime aircraft which is the cause of the radiation at Dalgety Bay.
As an inhabitant of Inverclyde for >20 years I know how there is a leukaemia cluster there which far exceeds normal distribution levels but which can only point to Faslane in a statistical, and hence circumstantial, manner and cannot be conclusively proved.
My Aunt and Uncle ran a golf club/hotel in Inverclyde. They had a guest once who told them he was sent up to test radioactivity levels. He was meant to stay a week but left after two days claiming it was unsafe and urging them to leave the area.
But to get up to date, how many people realise that the release of radon and other isotopes by fracking coal seams will lead to about three times the local radiation levels of Faslane.
@Chic
I know a gentleman who was threated with a D notice when he stated that granite from Scandinavia shipped to the UK used to manufacture Breeze block carried a ‘considerable’ level of radioactivity.
@sausage fingered luddite
BBC Radio Scotland John Beattie Show Tuesday 1st.July’14
‘expert” professor giving his view on tridend’
Prof. Eric Grove, Naval History Security Studies starts 41minutes in:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0480spx
ps. on IPlayer for another 6days
Jim Murphy wants to get rid of Trident, he claims, but only of every other country with nuclear weapons does so at the same time. It will never happen.
In the meantime Jim can strut about feeling big, as Miliband’s shadow defence minister, and utter the word Trident very frequently.
I suspect that wherever they are to be moved to, there will be people out in the streets in protest. That will be another severe obstacle to be overcome by the rUK government.
O/T
A question for anyone who has had dealings with the Electoral Commission’s rules
We’ve got a pile of Aye Right leaflets which were ordered, paid for and printed well before the ‘closed period’. Naturally they don’t include the ‘promoted by/printed by’ rubric (especially since they aren’t actually promoted by anyone).
We are getting contradictory information about whether we can continue to hand these out. Some say it’s OK if we are ‘individuals’ but not OK if we are saying we are from ‘Yes’. Others say that they can no longer be distributed, whatever…
The EC itself has not issued clear guidance. My impression is that they simply haven’t got their heads around a multi-faceted official and unofficial grassroots campaign which can’t be tucked into their usual rules for elections, and it’s all proving too difficult for them…
But if anyone knows anything definite on this subject, please let me know.
@Liquid Lenny
This is the Murray’s actual quote from the Times.
“He seemed perfectly nice to me, but I didn’t like it when he got the Scottish flag up at Wimbledon.”
Nothing about disliking any criticism of the flag waving.
If he was misquoted then he didn’t clarify it afterwards when it was plastered all over the media.
And if he is trying to avoid politics, then implying that you are embarrassed by the Scottish flag, or only want union jacks waved isn’t the most sensible message to give out – and is naturally going to result in getting used as a poster boy for the union.
Maybe he is playing to a largely English audience and thinking money or sponsorships.. who knows..
It just seems pretty disappointing to alienate half your home country by appearing to disown their flag.
Anyway he is still a great tennis player, and whatever his politics, it is only one person’s opinion.
At Dalgety Bay they were finding particles with high radiation levels which suggest that it was not just aircraft parts that were the problem. At the time these aircraft were dumped to landfill it was early days and there must have been fewer regulations about what to do with highly radioactive material. I would not be surprised if other material was dumped with the aircraft, being an opportunity to good to miss.
@Onwards
I heard that his comment was truncated, and omitted the part that added…and I paraphrase ..but I didn’t like it when he got the Scottish flag up.”..and received so much grief for doing so.
Kininvie, Calum Kerr said something at our last planning meeting which I took to heart.
“I’d rather ask forgiveness than ask permission.” (The subject was whether posters advertising public meetings could be put up on lamp posts.)
I’m quite sure nobody on the No side is over-concerned about the rules if all that happens is they have to say sorry on 19th September.
@Liquid Lenny
@YESGUY
I worked at Babcock Rosyth in design project office 1990’s.
I use to stretch my legs at dinnertime by walking around base.
In a wet dock saw SIX black rusting redundant obsolete floating nuclear subs.
As a ship’s engineer I know mild steel vessels only last 20years before plating and pipework rot through.
Naval vessel will be higher specification but only giving extra 10 to 20years of life maximium, before rust takes over.
At the very least I thought they would be out of water and sheltered from rainwater, to prevent contaminating surrounds and River Forth.
ps. My limited knowledge of radiation is from Chernoybl, its radiation contamination is danger to life for 20,000years (an Ice Age time period) for an area radius of 20miles (size of Greater London).
Ken, we’ve all heard that the comment was truncated, but nobody has ever provided a source for the assertion.
I don’t have an opinion. It’s a very weird thing for him to have said, especially given the saltire wrist-bands of his youth. and what sportsman doesn’t like to see his own country’s flag?
It’s possible he wasn’t particularly aware that there was an issue – he’ll have been training hard. Or even if he was, it might have been thought best not to stir the pot even further. Least said soonest mended.
On the other hand he might have been deliberately trying to ingratiate himself with potential English fans ahead of this year’s tournament.
By the way, I saw a football top in Peebles on Sunday. “I’m a Scot and I support two teams. Scotland [much smaller letters] and whoever’s playing England.” It was walking down the High Street and nobody was exactly throwing rotten tomatoes at it that I could see.
I am no expert on nuclear power, radiation etc but it is good we have folk on here with both broad and precise knowledge on a wide range of issues.
My only experience of nuclear power was year 3 and 4 of my welding apprenticeship and a year after being time served at torness.
While i was there you could get on site using your rail card instead of your site pass, apprentices were regularly given a “brown envelope” to do welding jobs which were attributed to guys who were off sick. If we mucked up the job, the guys meant to do the job got the blame!
This practice included working in clean conditions in the reactor core.
It was widespread over the site subcontractors and a blind eye was turned to this practice.
Although the operation became a lot more “by the book” after the fuel rods arrived, i was glad to be well away from the place when it was fired up !
To think i worked there only around 30 years ago and now there is talk of it being close to being decommisioned then value for money of nuclear power is surely questionable ?
Kinivie,
RW tose leaflets, if you’re ar the Newsroom I will take a bundle and get them round the doors.
@Morag
I fully acknowledge that my comment was purely anecdotal, however I do feel that the general southern narrative’ of having to pledge allegiance to our larger neighbour may not be lost on Andy.
He is a true gentleman IMHO, and is continually subjected to the most vile acidic abuse online that one can never imagine. I’m certain he’s keeping his powder dry.. he’s a canny Scot.
@GEEO
Here is an extract from an American military strategy website in 2008.
“Plan B From Hell
April 17, 2008: A British SSBN (nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine) was recently discovered to have a fist sized hole in its hull. The hole, caused by corrosion, was patched, but questions were raised about why such a thing could happen. Well, it’s complicated.
The sub in question, HMS Revenge, was decommissioned in the 1980s. It’s nuclear fuel, weapons and all noxious chemicals were removed. But the nuclear reactor is still radioactive, and will remain so for thousands of years. When the sub was built, in 1969, the plan was to simply sink the sub, in very deep water, when it was decommissioned. But that practice has since been outlawed by international treaty. Plan B was to cut up the decommissioned nuclear subs, and then bury the radioactive bits in a national repository for radioactive waste. But there has never been any agreement on where to locate said national repository.
The current plan is to do nothing and wait. Plan B for that plan is to eventually (just before the old nuclear boats rot so much that they no longer stay afloat) cut them up and store the radioactive section (the reactor compartment) near the naval base (Rosyth, in Scotland) where these retired subs are tied up. The government does not want to discuss this, as the Scots would not be pleased. But possession is 9/10ths and all that. Besides, the English have been screwing the Scots for centuries, and you know how the Brits are about tradition. ”
The Scottish Government were alerted to the above but at subsequent meetings were assured that the subs would be cut up and buried at a nuclear waste dump in Cumbria.
But guess what? It seems like the second plan B is the ‘preferred’ outcome after all.
Thanks for that chic.
Just looked at RT site, and a wee extract from the trident commission report was highlighted..strangely i do not recall this being mentioned in our own media !
It adds (trident commission): “If the United States were to withdraw their cooperation completely, the UK nuclear capability would probably have a life expectancy measured in months rather than years”.
@morag @bob
Don’t worry – the Aye Right’s will find a home :)) I just wanted to know if anyone actually had any clear guidance to confirm (or not) that the EC was in a complete mess about this kind of thing.
@jock scott (if you’re around)
I regret to say that my Twitter feed suggests that unionist opinion on ‘Caledonian Rhapsody’ is….um….not altogether favourable:
Chris Deerin ?@chrisdeerin 10h
this is brain-drillingly, scrotum-kickingly awful
(I quite liked it 🙂 )
Sorry geeo, that post was meant for Horseboy. My mistake.
No problem chic, it was an interesting read anyway.
It has taken a while, but Trident has always been high up the unionist list for anti independence.
With a few weeks to go, we are hitting the REAL issues now.
Trident is the ultimate nightmare for WM as its departure is Non-negotiable.
It has been said that we will use it as CU leverage etc, nonsense!
While Trident leaving Scotland is not up for debate, we get our leverage by telling the ruk WHEN it is leaving. Play ball and nato permitting (possibly earlier), by the end of the first Scottish parliament, do not play ball, independence day plus one day.
Like many other prominent Scots, Andy Murray will come out for independence, AFTER a Yes vote.
“Could someone please give me a source to verify above AM quote- very important -Thanks”
It’s fake.
I reckon the only map reference Gemma Doyle is interested in is – Latitude 51.49838° Longitude -0.12650°.
After all that is were her trough is, at Westmidden.
Torness was one of Wedgewood Benn’s achievements as Min of Tech, when he closed down most of the Scottish Pits. This and his other unsung achievements paved the way for Maggie Thatcher,
IF, Andy Murray has been subject to “vile abuse£ I certainly haven’t seen it, nor would I agree with it. Perhaps you could give some examples? I have seen people rightly commenting on his statements that he does not care if his children grow up without Scottish accents and the rest of his cringing comments. He said nothing of David Cameron waving the Jack at the London Olympics, nor the sickening jingoism spent on that occasion and others such as the Jubilee Since. Then I have noticed more of his followers waving British and English National flags and have noticed the absence of Scottish National flags and the many references to the English Tennis Team. Is it nasty “cybernat abuse” to mention this?
I wish him well in his career and personal life, but I will not be supporting him, or anyone else, waving a Butcher’s Apron, or carrying their bag. Do I not have that right? Or, is that that what is meant by “abuse”?
Try the Herald, or was it the Sunday Herald who gave his unambiguous quote in full at the time, leaving no doubt as to where he stands.
Two reports on Reporting Scotland caught my eye this morning,
the first was the report that Ryanair could pull out of Prestwick and concentrate its operations in Glasgow airport,
which leads to the question, why?
its only weeks since Michael O’Leary and Willie Walsh were salivating over an independent Scotland abolishing airport tax and then suddenly O’Leary goes for the one thing certain to piss the Scottish Government off,
could it be that someone has had a word in someone’s shell like advising them against helping the Scottish Government make Prestwick a success and someone could be warning someone else their other UK route could suddenly come up for renegotiation?
Jus askin s’all
the other report was Wee Davie’s back again (already?)
and this time his message is that “the silent majority (of Scots) are happy to remain in the UK” (how the hell does he know that if they’re silent?)
and this is the bit that really pisses me off
“John Swinney (will say?) that only under independence ,yada yada yada” its the broken record SUPPOSED quote designed to make the Scottish Government look like they only have one message and are not capable of a serious response instead of the dirge like mantra Katriona Shearer repeats ad nausium every-bloody-morning. incidentally if you watch her closely you’ll notice she isn’t even looking at her idiot board when she says it.
we can see you pathetic quay (couldn’t be arsed to put that name in caps)we know what your doing, it sounds like your making a coffin for yourself.
Rant over,
normal service will resume shortly
in the meantime here’s some music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jjiWS__Mp0
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/02/andy-murray-familiar-cycle-british-sport Murray back to being Scottish here though, despite achieving more than English players have ever done. Not long now.
Route=routes 🙂
Andy Murray didn’t try at Wimbledon yesterday.
It was reported that several tennis pros including one of his personal coaches stated at the knock about there was something not right and he didn’t look up for the game (may paraphrase).
I wonder why.
I have never heard Andy Murray having the guts to deny those alleged “mis”quotes.
I do remember a female swimmer refusing to sing the British National Anthem at the English Olympics and being vilely abused by the media and have never heard of hers since. I can’t even remember her name and have no idea how her career has been managed since. Perhaps someone here has a better memory of this than myself? I don’t think she was the only athlete to have done this
John King
What do you do it you find trumpets growing in your garden?
You have to rootitoot.
BtP 🙂
Robert I have seen these leukaemia clusters you referred to on the Clyde actually blamed on the descendants of poor Irish migrants dating back to the Potato Famine.
Donald Anderson
Andy Murray abuse here from anti independence supporters
tinyurl.com/ny8acmm
https://twitter.com/BritNatAbuseBot
On Aye Right leaflets without printed and published details, I think individuals can do what they like but they can’t go out with official Yes materials.
andy murray
http://i.imgur.com/ZENoS2l.png
Hi new readers and Labour supporters (?). Couple of things to point out to you in the following two articles. First one is from the Guardian newspaper. I draw your attention to the fifth paragraph from the end and the name “Andy Burnham”
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/02/cancer-care-nhs-outsourcing-ccgs-unison-virgin#start-of-comments
Next article is from a Holyrood Magazine article from Sept 2013. I draw your attention to the last two paragraphs and the name “Andy Burham”
http://www.holyrood.com/2013/09/burnham-sets-out-vision-for-whole-person-service/
Happy reading!
Cal
Don’t trust Labour on the NHS. As Private Eye reported, former New Labour health secretary Alan Milburn, responsible for health reforms including foundation trusts and a big push on PFI described the NHS’s woes as “less about challenge and more about opportunity”
Consultants from PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) have made a fortune from advising NHS Trusts including Mid Staffs which got into a shambolic mess which resulted in highest number of deaths after becoming a foundation trust.
Mr Milburn chairs PwC health industries oversight board.
Jim Murphy will be delighted to hear that Jim Naughtie refuses to be cowed by bullies demonstrating at Pacific Quay. This morning in an interview with a Business for Scotland rep Naughtie asserted that the Scottish Government shouldn’t really be threatening to withold SG contracts from pro-union businesses (implying that the SG routinely threaten to do so). He then opined that Westminster’s threats over shipyard contracts and defence jobs weren’t really threats at all.
Good old Jim, champion of free speech!
Mid Staffs: Labour Government ignored MP requests for public inquiry into deaths
Former Health Secretaries Andy Burnham and Alan Johnson ignored 81 requests for a public inquiry into Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust in the two years after it was first warned of poor NHS care, it has emerged.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9875660/Mid-Staffs-Labour-Government-ignored-MP-requests-for-public-inquiry-into-deaths.html
The Francis Report criticised Andy Burnham was being asleep at the wheel over Mid Staffs high number of deaths.
In 2007 Andy Burnham backed Mid Staffordshire NHS Trust’s application for Foundation status citing its “high performing standards” but this was after the national UK press had reported 127 deaths at Mid Staffordshire one of the highest in the country yet Burnham claimed that he was unaware of this.
@ Kininvie 12.52, I,ll take as many Aye Rite leaflets you can give me, I can pick you up in Bathgate on Frid nite enroute to Edinburgh you have my number from last time we met.
John King
Anything that involves Scotland or the Scottish Government is bad, in the eyes of BBC Scotland.
I think the Ryanair story falls into that category. Ryanair will be announcing new routes today from Glasgow. They are not going to be leaving Prestwick Airport.
Prestwick has a very good long term future in an Independent Scotland.
Look at the disgraceful way that BBC Scotland trashed the Bannockburn event, also the Commonwealth Games gets the full negative treatment from them.
BBC Scotland just don’t do positive Scottish thinking John, it’s not wrote into their contract.
Thanks I don’t do twitter, or facebook. Would you mind pasting the quotes please so we can all see them?
Training Day
Jim Naughtie is a damp squib. I am baffled as to why they parachuted him in…other than his loyalty to the Union/BBC he brings absolutely nothing new to GMS. Indeed, loyalty to the Union/BBC isn’t in short supply at Pacific Quay without him. I missed the interview you mention. I turned to a music channel when he was investigating why raspberries are so juicy this year and relaxed to some sounds on my drive in.
Jim Naughtie is a buffoon. His bluster over project fear’s non threatening vote yes and lose RN ship building was classic BBC vote no Scotland.
@kendomacaroonbar says: 3 July, 2014 at 12:39 am
“I know a gentleman who was threated with a D notice when he stated that granite from Scandinavia shipped to the UK used to manufacture Breeze block carried a ‘considerable’ level of radioactivity”.
All granite carries ,’a considerable level of radioactivity”. Rosyth Dockyard docksides and tidal basin is constructed of granite, as are many of the older, more substantial, buildings.
As one who spent many years with radioactivity detecting instruments in his hands I can certify that often the background count on the dockside exceeded the count on the non-reactor compartment areas of nuclear submarines.
The thing is – who lays down the levels that are officially acceptable as a safe level of, “Background Radiation”?
The point being this exposure to radiation is cumulative. That is, as anyone who has worked with the stuff can tell you, as they have a personal lifetime exposure rating. You wear a film badge and, upon entering an area that may carry a risk of exposure, a pocket doseimeter. Both of which are recorded for your lifetime exposure rating.
So what about all those wee background sources? Granite, Radon Gas, the sources in CO2 and fire alarms? What of the medical and security x-ray machines? What of the radiation of a lifetime spent looking at cathode ray disply tubes on TVs, computers, Etc? What of the backgrounds from granite and other natural sources – even the sunshine some often seek out for a, “Healthy”, tan.
All these things constitute background radiation but contamination is far more dangerous than radiation. BTW: Coal fired generation of electricity has a higher level of background radiation and contamination.
Donald avers: I remember a female swimmer refusing to sing the British National Anthem at the English Olympics and being vilely abused by the media and have never heard of hers since
A good many Scots and Welsh athletes have refused to sing the national anthem, and I thing even Ryan Giggs too, on one occasion.
Scot Ifeoma Dieke refused. Her grandfather spoke on her behalf: “It’s the English anthem. She’s a Scot. I support her 100 percent. I hope to see a Scottish team at the Olympics one day.”
The Daily Mail usually ensures such dissent is crushed.
All of were expected to sing the anthem at the end of a film in the cinema – it time people drifted out early to show their disregard of an out-dated ritual. Eventually cinema chains got the message and the habit was dropped.
The pressure to conform is everywhere and on every level in British society.
kinivie
Te Aye Right leaflets you hold were printed and paid for prior to run up period and it is fine to continue distributing them.
Since beginning of run up, the leaflets printed carry my name, address and printer and therefore meet EC guidelines.
There is a continueing demand for the leaflets and can still accept orders via:
gavinlessells AT yahoo DOT co DOT uk
Why all the petty anti Andy Murray comments?
He was abused for years by the media for a joking comment to Tim Henman that he would support any team but England. Now every comment he makes is forensically picked apart for supposed anti-Scottish or anti-English bias. No wonder he is so guarded in his comments because he has learned that everything he says will be twisted to suit somebody’s agenda.
Give the man a break. He is still a great example of what a lifetime of hard work and ambition can achieve.
I agree with fireproof Jim
Best to let Murray get on with it. Murray endures considerable pressure, from manager, powerful sponsors and the like to appear ‘international’ rather than insular. He knows he’s a Scot first and foremost, but he has to exercise diplomacy.
We do not need heroes to help boost our confidence.
We have the confidence in us already.
@fireproofjim
You are right, people should give Andy Murray a break. He has also invested some of his money in Scotland, creating jobs.
He doesn’t even have a vote.
@JWil says: 3 July, 2014 at 12:59 am
“At Dalgety Bay they were finding particles with high radiation levels which suggest that it was not just aircraft parts that were the problem”.
Whoa! There!JWil.
Donibristle, more correctly, “HMS Merlin”, closed down in 1959. Not a lot was known about radioactivity in those days. What was known was of the very most, “Top Secret”.
As I’ve attempted to explain several times on this forum, Radioactivity is cumulative. It is affected by the strength of the source, its distance from the measuring instrument, (it is logarithmic), and the particular isotope.
However, the point is that if you put two or more sources together then you increase the overall dose rate. Now what was happening at Merlin was twofold. They were scrapping Fleet Air Arm planes and stores spares. Thus when they eventually burned the scrapped stuff, then buried it, they were adding the many small sources of radiation together. Nothing conspiratorial about it.
Remember that back then they still had not worked out that the very high incidence of mouth cancer amongst the women who painted instrument dials and clock/watch dials was due to the practice of them licking the artists style brushes to point the bristles of the paintbrush while painting dials.
Agreed on the Andy Murray thing. leave him alone. He gets enough crap from the Britnats as it is. We don’t need people on our side giving him a hammering too.
Read between the lines too. At absolute worst, he is a soft no, and that will be because he is literally held to ransom by the foul media. Any open signs of Scottishness can easily be used by the contemptible media to turn the all England club into a snarling pit of wolves. Not only damaging him, but also his girlfriend too. Imagine the abuse she’d get! If I was in his position, I’d probably do the same too. The last thing anyone wants is their loved ones to get hurt in a media witchhunt.
I’d figure that upon a yes vote, he’d be smiling even if that isn’t the way he is inclined.
Slightly off-topic, but if any of you are looking for snappy comebacks to ‘vile cybernat abuse’ nonsense then why not refer the complainers to BritNatAbuseBot
@Robert Peffers
Thank you Robert for your clarification.
Small point of correction – Barrow is actually 150 miles from Faslane, using the same handy map tool, not 218. Possibly that’s the distance by road?
But I’m still voting Yes.
@Liquid Lenny
So you believe all the pish coming out of the MSM, I guess you are on the wrong site. the actual quote that Murray said were published on various social media sites in the aftermath of the MSM onslaught a few weeks ago.
No I don’t believe everything coming out of the MSM but I don’t also believe everything in social media. I believe in facts and evidence, that’s all, and I haven’t seen a single shred of evidence that he was misquoted, just a whole load of wishful thinking. BTW the Rev criticised AM’s remarks on the day they were published so if I’m on the wrong site then so is he.
Forgive me, but I don’t even know what MSM stands for?
Political commentator Tom Brown, says he fears for his family in an independent Scotland, and worries his grand kids will become foreigners.
You couldn’t make this rubbish if you tried.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-legendary-political-commentator-3802346
Donald asks: I don’t even know what MSM stands for?
Mainstream media – that is, newspapers, television, radio, and some key magazines.
I don’t even thing this is worth a mention, but I will anyway. Steve Coogan aka Alan Partridge, opposes, Scottish independence, are you all upset?. I didn’t think so.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/actor-steve-coogan-says-doesnt-3802507
James123
Apologies on a bit of a short fuse yesterday managed to snap my ignition key in the ignition… You are correct that social media can be as bad as the MSM.
It would be good to get the original unadulterated Times interview and see what he actually said.
It doesn’t really matter he does not have a vote, however I think by past behaviour he is a soft YES.
Does anybody remember him ignoring the Union Jack that was left out for him to drape himself in it when he won Wimbledon last year?
Andy B names names: Steve Coogan aka Alan Partridge, opposes, Scottish independence, – too ‘insular.’
He forgets that he got his break as an unknown stand-up on stage at the Edinburgh International Arts Festival.
Andy-B
I take it Tom Brown does not like foreigners then. Says it all really.
Thanks peasant beater. Now I know that MSM stands for Brit Nat media
Donald: Thanks Grouse Beater
I named your female athlete a few post above.
Andy-B says:
Political commentator Tom Brown, says he fears for his family in an independent Scotland, and worries his grand kids will become foreigners.
And Tom dutifully works his way through the entire litany of tired old fear, smear and recycled Britnat manure while masquerading as a right-minded child of the Scottish working class.
The problem with right-wing Labour hacks like Tom is that they see absolutely no need for radical change – after all, there’s been enough change to get them the lifestyle they want, and tough shit to everyone else. More change will simply frighten the horses and upset our political masters.
Vote Yes and rid ourselves of these troughers.
I think it’s worth remembering that Andy Murray has been obsessing about nothing but tennis since he was about 12. His education outside that narrow field seems to be fairly sketchy, and his interests don’t run much past sport in general either. He’s a great tennis player and I admire his single-minded determination, but a deep thinker or even averagely educated he is not.
He came out with some guff about maybe not risking independence “in case it all went tits up”. He’s under massive pressure not to rock the Brit-Nat boat. I question whether he even knows his own mind now, with all the pressure that his juvenile sense of Scottish identity has been subjected to.
I would faint with shock if he has ever examined the central arguments for (or even against) independence for five minutes. I would also question whether he is intellectually equipped to do so. No criticism of him, it’s just not what he does.
I suspect he just wishes people would stop asking him about it, and knows he mustn’t say anything the Daily Mail can present as a pro-Yes line, irrespective of what he’s thinking. IF he’s thinking, which I somewhat doubt.
It might be mildly interesting to see how he reacts after a Yes vote, but how he reacts now really isn’t.
Murray and his mum and leading the project to invest a ton of money in a Tennis Academy in Edinburgh. (On land not far from me.) He also bought a large hotel in Dunblane. Not the behaviour of a man wedded to the lure of London.
Indeed, I don’t criticise him. I just don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a deep intellectual analysis of the situation.
@jwil
“At Dalgety Bay they were finding particles with high radiation levels which suggest that it was not just aircraft parts that were the problem. At the time these aircraft were dumped to landfill it was early days and there must have been fewer regulations about what to do with highly radioactive material. I would not be surprised if other material was dumped with the aircraft, being an opportunity to good to miss.”
The waste at Dalgety Bay is dwarfed in comparison to the radioactive waste hazard presented by the decommissioning of the old nuclear powered subs at Rosyth.
The promise that the waste would be going to a purpose built facility in Cumbria has been broken, because, guess what? the folk of Cumbria don’t want it. Who would ever have foreseen that?
Instead they plan to bury the low level waste locally. The thin end of a wedge. Next it will be the medium level and eventually the high level active waste from the reactors.
Nuclear waste, in a sane world, would be transported in unsinkable pods to Antarctica and taken inland to one of the deserts where it never rains, has no people within a thousand miles and no life to speak of and where there is already a high level of radiation anyway due to the Earth’s magnetic field. No rain means no chance of seepage.
Problem is, in the typically nutty fashion of politics, the Antarctic is the one area of the planet where there is internationally agreed protection.
Dear SNP (Somerset National Party),
In the real world, the polls are showing that most Scots back trident replacement and reject independence. Sorry about that.
Love that the poster Heedtracker tried to write the trident poll off as a ‘BBC/MOD and GCHQ’ conspiracy. Not the first example of tinfoil nationalism I’ve seen, but certainly one of the most amusing! Regards,
Charlie
Well Charlie , here’s a thing,
”
MSPs vote against Trident renewal
Nuclear submarine
MSPs debated the future of the Clyde-based submarines
The Scottish Parliament has voted against renewing Trident nuclear weapons – the first time Holyrood has taken a clear position on the issue.
The motion, backed by 71 MSPs to 16, with 39 abstentions, also congratulated the majority of Scots MPs for voting against a replacement system.”
2007. I suppose they can change their view with the wind – or should I say, When the Wind Blows – worth finding this wee cartoon !
1. Silloth is in England and within 100 miles of Faslane as the crow flies.
2. 100 miles “or so” =/= 100 miles and is in any case a figure of speech
3. 150 miles, not beyond the realms of reasonableness as coming under “100 miles or so” in casual conversation, includes most of the Lake District and Newcastle.
“150 miles, not beyond the realms of reasonableness as coming under “100 miles or so” in casual conversation”
If someone was giving me directions to a place and said it was “100 or so” miles away and it turned out to be 150 and I was an hour late getting there as a result, I’d be mighty pissed off.
As one of her constituents I’m not surprised La Doyle’s performance was risible, given that the only tangible thing she has achieved in her time at Westminster is to put on weight.
She is a stereotypical SLAB drone; a former bag-carrier for MSP Jackie Baillie she has never worked outside of the political cocoon of WoS Labour and has seemingly never had an original thought in her puff.
Oh, and like that ‘ordinary mother’ from just up the road her religious affiliations are impeccable for climbing the People’s Party’s greasy pole in this particular area.
Sorted !
Seriously, Mr Invisible? ““100 miles or so” in casual conversation, includes most of the Lake District and Newcastle.”
NEWCASTLE? 100 miles or so from Faslane? Are you genetically programmed to read maps properly? Do you know that East is not the same as West? What’s 7 times 8? Do you work in the “adding sums up” Department of YouGov – it would explain a lot.
But anyway(1), I really, really, doubt that the people of Newcastle-upon-Tyne want our nuclear cast-offs anywhere near them!
Anyway (2), welcome to Wings, where the motto is “we’re only here for the beer/facts”! (Delete as appropriate)
How about asking the Orange Order in Belfast to find a home? I believe the H & W shipyard with a very large dry-dock are available. Was that a scream of ‘no’ I heard???
Auld Rock
Burlington Bunker in leafy Wiltshire is only 50 miles from Devonport, so that would make it 475 miles away (approximately) … fine by me, even though it might upset the brewers of that fine drop of ale, Wadworth’s 6X!