Voting No will give you cancer
Voting No WON’T give you cancer at all, of course. (Although with the English NHS now privatising cancer care, with the likely knock-on effects on Scottish NHS funding, you’d better hope even harder that you don’t get it.)
The title on this article is in fact completely unrelated to the text you’re about to read, much like Torcuil Crichton’s column in today’s Daily Record.
Let’s take a look.
“SNP have no answer to the end of a naval era
There will be a great deal of symbolism around the naming of the Royal Navy supercarrier HMS Queen Elizabeth tomorrow.
Having the Queen, the carrier and the prowess of Scottish shipbuilding in the same camera frame is a wet dream for the Better Together campaign.
The effect, like a Bannockburn downpour, may last only a day but the political message from Rosyth is obvious and the SNP doesn’t really have a strong answer to it.
Questions over jobs, defence and the monarchy itself continue to dog the independence movement.
Maybe there should be debate between the leaders of each side about these issues?
The naming ceremony will be a joyful occasion but behind the bunting is the question of what comes after the carriers? There are Type 26 ship contracts not on order until the referendum dust is settled.
There will be Rosyth refits for the carrier, or carriers, for 50 years, but nothing near the same level of work. The carriers are the last big warships the UK is likely to build, what we will be cheering is the end of an era.
There is also the question of what the carriers will do with themselves.
I stood on the five-acre deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth a few months ago. It is as big as the croft at home. But the Royal Navy might as well grow potatoes at sea because they will have no aircraft to fly off that impressive deck for a long time to come.
It was East Kilbride’s best, Tory Defence Secretary Liam Fox, who decided to mothball one of the carriers and retro-fit the deck design to take catapult-launched aircraft. That added £100million to the bill before it was decided to go back to plan A and the short take-off F-35B jets that were originally ordered.
I’m sure Fox will be too shame-faced to appear at the event.
The delay left the American military suppliers furious and the F-35 fighter programme delayed. One of four US Marine F-35Bs due to make an appearance at the HMS Queen Elizabeth is on “safety hold” in the US and might not arrive in time for the ceremony.
The last Sea Vixen, a 1950s-era carrier fighter, will perform a flyover. Instead of the future of British carrier aviation, we may have to settle for a nod to the past.”
If you found yourself scratching your head in bafflement towards the end of that article, well done. You can still read and comprehend English.
Crichton’s point is that successive UK governments have reduced the size and strength of the Royal Navy, to the absurd point where we have vast, expensive aircraft carriers with no aircraft on them. He notes that the UK government’s handling of the situation has been shambolic. He indicates that the amount of work at the Rosyth dockyard – which has already lost more than 90% of its workforce under the UK government’s safekeeping – will be dramatically lessened in future.
What, readers might therefore be wondering, does that have to do with the SNP and the Scottish Government, who have been responsible for precisely none of this mess, waste and decay? Why do “questions dog the independence movement” about it? Why is a story about the UK’s navy and its shipbuilding industries withering away and dying under UK government control headlined and presented as an attack on the SNP and Yes, and “a wet dream for the Better Together campaign”?
Those are rhetorical questions, by the way. We have no idea, and we’re pretty sure that if you pressed Torcuil Crichton about it he wouldn’t be able to tell you either.
“The carriers are the last big warships the UK is likely to build, what we will be cheering is the end of an era.”
So vote No to sink with the UK.
Vote yes my fellow scots or like today when westminster are putting cancer care out to private tender all will be lost.We must feel sorry for the RUK who have no control over this. We must vote yes so that our people with cancer will be treated fairly and not with profit in the forefront. As a retired nurse I know treatments are expensive so many will not get what is beneficial to their health or lives. wake up it is not too late for Scotland yet . VOTE YES
Because the BBC will just read out the headlines with glee.
maybe the journalist is really a YES supporter.
link to eveningtimes.co.uk
“If you found yourself scratching your head towards the end of that article, well done. You can still read and comprehend English.”
Thank fuck for that.
So Its not just me then, Mr Crichton is kinda taking two barrels to his own feet with that ridiculous argument.
Can I ask a silly question?
Does the navy have the personnel to man a carrier, to two, I’m sure there exists sufficient admirals but regular seamen and gun crew?
We need the carriers like we need a lobotomy for our brain cancer . It’s a return to the battleship mentality of the 1914’s useless chunks of steel bleeding the nations coffers. Britain hasn’t been a world power since 1945, time for a reality check
Every reason they gave us in 79 were the very things they themselves carried out. There are no future orders of this size, nor will there be any thought of them within UK. Independence may well prompt naval shipbuilding and certainly the repair, maintenance etc. Of course bearing in mind that there are no reasons for rUK not to use iScotland and every reason for them to be unable to fulfil their needs within England, this is more empty talk to scare folk who don’t have the information. However, the opportunity to whip up BritNat fervour with a visit from the Queen is made greater by the fact she is launching a naval vessel and made greater still by the fact it is named for her. The Queen seems to be inordinately busy in Scotland, I wonder why…
“…if you pressed Torcuil Crichton…”
A juicy story may appear. Sorry, couldn’t resist!
“Left hand down a bit.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Pfftt…
High Speed Choo Choo Trains, and glorified bath-tubs are sooo last century.
An Independent progressive country should build JetPacks and Space Ships.
Actually. I was diagnosed with cancer in the Netherlands where I was living at the time. The prognosis there was bleak. I was offered only palliative hormone treatment and was expected to live no more than three years. The system there is insurance based: shareholders expect profit and protocols are used to determine treatment. Back here I am under the treatment of the NHS. I have just had a (probably expensive) course of radiotherapy and my cancer is being dealt with aggressively. The prognosis here is much more positive. So perhaps you won’t get cancer if you vote no, but if you have it you will certainly expect a different kind of treatment.
The name ‘Torcuil Chrichton’ sounds like he might be a writer of pulp fiction, the name emblazoned on a thick paperback before the smaller title printed below, a name chosen as a pseudonym, inadvertently two Christian names. You can reverse it without losing or gaining anything.
“Chrichton Torcuil, get yer arse in here. Yer tea’s ready!”
(Anyhow, I prefer the spelling ‘Torquil.’)
Labour–Tory joined at the hip
link to moridura.blogspot.co.uk
It’s a question which if put to most folk, they will acknowledge that Westminster has treated the shipbuilding industry appallingly. No one can defend it. How could they? The demise of shipbuilding has been on Westminster’s watch.
However, those same unionists (…bafflingly) will state that Independence will the death knell of shipbuilding. they seem to be under the illusion that something is better than nothing! So 3,000 shipbuilders is better than zero shipbuilders. God …they would probably say that 10 builders would be better than zero builders and therefore, that is a case for the Union (honestly …they would!)
To be honest, the only way to really counter this argument, is the Scottish Government to publish a detailed document of what they will do with the shipyards post-Yes. If it includes detailed explanations of how they will revamp the dockyards, then it might just kill the Unionist argument.
Even if the dockyards are more or less up to date anyway, just saying that they will modernise it, will surely either have the Unionists pointing out that (A) it already is modernised (which then means Scotland is ready to take on major orders for shipbuilding and we’re open for business) or (B) that the Unionists have to match what is being offered and thus, invest in the Dockyards.
Either way …it would kill the argument (and just to be twisted, it throws up another useful option (C) it will shut Lamont up at the same time and end her diatribe about shipbuilding and independence!)
And the planes for the carriers are lemons. Have a look at this, 10 mins.
link to youtube.com
We live in a such a strange region of a really strange country. Norwegian shipyards have expanded for decades building all kinds of shipping and ofcourse, UKOK oil expro platforms. http://www.kvaerner.com
‘I stood on the five-acre deck of HMS Queen Elizabeth a few months ago. It is as big as the croft at home.’
Crivvens! As big as the croft? Awa man! Laard almichty, whit could be as big as the croft? It chust disna bear thinkin aboot…(shakes head and returns to Seven Days Hard with Francis Gay)..
I suppose the sly slacker Chrichton is saying, anything that happens in Scotland is, by geographical fact, whether good or bad, the fault of the Scottish government.
Talking about NHS privatisation, here is a list, albeit a bit old, of various political types (those with a vote or influence) with financial interests or close connections to private health provision.
It is very long
link to socialinvestigations.blogspot.fr
Surely these people, those on today’s list must declare an interest and disqualify themselves from any vote on this?
Silly me, they are Parliament, all supreme and immune.
A Constitution beckons after a Yes vote.
I have disappeared again?
@JLT
That is exactly the feeling I have when I listen to unionists: they keep threatening that an independence vote will have outcomes that have already happened or are going to happen under the Westminster parties existing policies . It is absolutely baffling
Well I expect the reason all this is a wet dream for the No campaign is because they revel in bad news about Scotland.
So sorry to hear your news, Duncan. I’m glad that you are getting good support now. The news about privatising cancer care is horrifying. I really hope enough people wake up to the awful things that are happening and vote yes in September.
UK govt strategic thinking at its best. New aircraft carrier, but no British planes or sufficient crew to operate it. I do remember reading somewhere that French planes were to be used, that’ll look good on the next BBC coverage of Armed Forces Day.
OK
here is a list of MPs and other legislators, from 2008, who have an interest in private health care.
I would expect that such, as of today, would have to declare themselves with a pecuniary interest and disqualify themselves for any legislation, examination or vote of related matters?
Oh, I forgot, we have no written constitution and these thieves can do whatever they like.
//socialinvestigations.blogspot.fr/2012/07/over-60-mps-connected-to-companies.html
put the www in front of the // please
Have to say, Crichton Torquil doesn’t exactly look the horny handed son of the soil crofter type either.
“a wet dream for the Better Together campaign”. I wish my brain hadn’t tried to visualise that after I read it. I won’t be able to watch a red-faced Mr Darling huffing and puffing in quite the same light anymore.
American Inspector Morse does not like the F-35!
Hard to see how independence could deliver a WORSE future for Scottish dockyards or any other industry.
Incidentally, 1979 was the year the last large British aircraft carrier was decommissioned.
ian foulds: at 9:31 am
Maybe the
jochurnalist is really a YES supporter.There you are I just fixed it for you.
I used to live in Portsmouth. Back then, the Royal Navy could at a pinch be something to be proud of, we had the submarines at Gosport, the Royal Yacht berthed nearby, then we had regular trips in and out from Pompey of the two carriers, illustrious and invincible, with old Hermes berthed up as a training ship. Then Latterly they had the NEW shiny Ark Royal, a great day when it arrived.
Now, what do we have, 13 major surface vessels, no aircraft carriers, no maritime patrol aircraft, no sea harriers, and two aircraft carriers under construction, which have no aircraft. I just know that many old Navy types down there must shake their head in disbelief at the state of affairs. The Navy has become a bit of a joke.
As regards ‘day trip Dave’ up on one of his wee colonial visits to ‘jocklandshire’, he is apparently going to urge people to speak out in favour of the union. he will say people need to stop being afraid to speak out in defence of the UK. This, of course, coming from the UK prime minister who himself is feart to speak out and have a debate on ths issue. How ironic.
Tory boy, ‘day trip Dave’. Feartie. Hypocrite. Away back to London with you.
Military shipbuilding is a bit of a dead end. Sure, you’ll always need some, but trying to sustain an industry on the hope that you’ll get the next decent sized contract is lunacy.
This is where Norway (yes, I know, Norway gets mentioned a lot) has got it right. It has a vast maritime network and most of the ships that occupy it are Norwegian built. They don’t build many naval units; they don’t have a very big navy, but then no one is looking at the Norwegian Navy to be the saviour of any particular dockyard.
Scottish shipbuilding needs massive investment and, more than that, a real diversification in ship type.
None of this alters the point that wee Torcuil is once again trying to blame the Scottish Government for something they currently have no real control over. Wired to the moon, is Torcuil.
@Velofello
Good question. The answer is that these are not ordinary manning heavy aircraft carriers, these are RN highly automated aircraft carriers.
Our American cousins are apparently highly curious to know how all this automation will work in practice. Despite their technological prowess their carriers are still full of personnel whose job is to be labourers lifting things, turning things, dragging things, pushing things and all sorts of other mundane tasks. They are floating towns.
Not her Maj’s eponymous vessel, it will not be chock full of vassals. The question is, will it still work? Will either of them ever have enough aircraft to tell? will it ever be deployed anywhere where it will be properly tested? or will they be too valuable to be put in harm’s way? like the Ark Royal sat so far SE of the Falklands that the harriers had very little time over the islands to avoid running out of fuel.
Well I expect the reason all this is a wet dream for the No campaign is because they revel in bad news about Scotland.
They will be punching the air in delight as the mighty air fleet, the solitary 50 year old Sea Vixen, flies past at 400 mph.
Liam Fox doesn’t know the meaning of the word ‘shame’ so unless he hasn’t been sent an invitation I would fully expect him to put in an appearance.
Peter Macbeastie,
I couldn’t agree more. The future of Scottish shipbuilding is in diversifying, rather than hanging on for one wee MOD order every ten years. Other countries can do it, with fewer resources than Scotland. All that is in the way is Westminster.
Norway builds fantastic oil support vessels. Aberdeen Harbour is full of them. You won’t find any UK-built ships up here though. With a fantastic heritage and expertise in ship building, why were none built on the Clyde? The huge market in luxury liners during the past 30 years was another big boat that we missed. Never mind, we still get the booby prize of the odd warship which the UK can ill-afford, helping to keep an ever diminshing workforce busy (at least some of the time).
North Sea giant offshore expro platforms are nearly 40 years old in extreme weather conditions but replacement costs billions and if they are replaced, why will they not be built in Scotland? Because we’re BetterTogether.
The strange thing is …I’ve read quite a few times about a theory that may yet come to pass, and it is to do with the ice caps melting in the Arctic Circle. If it should come to pass, then Scotland will become a serious shipping nation in the Northern Hemisphere.
You see …if the ice caps eventually melt, or just become too thin, then shipping to places like Canada, Russia, Japan, China won’t be through the conventional shipping lanes of the Atlantic, Indian or Pacific …it will be through the Arctic waters. Where is the shortest and straightest line from Scotland to China. It’s through the Arctic.
Speculating then that the ice caps melt …you are going to have some giant flamin’ shipping terminals at places like Aberdeen, Shetlands and wherever else that might be useful. That means we will need ships …a lot of them. The rest of Europe (especially Southern) will probably use the Scottish shipping terminals to offload, or take goods on. We will be the central hub in this future industry. Overall …it will massive and it will be extremely profitable. We WILL need shipbuilding.
It’s something we should bear in mind and ponder on…
In 1979, there were something of the order of 30,000 Scottish shipyard jobs and we were told by Westminster that the only way to protect them was with a No vote.
However, the SNP warned us then and too few folk actually listened. History has lessons for those who will take the time to look into it:
All these years on and we have about 3000 jobs left, yet still they tell us to vote No to protect them.
Unfortunately, there are the fools who will still listen to them. 🙁
Torcuil is just doing what the boss of Better Together wants him to do; David Cameron has directed the Unionist press to rubbish the Scottish Government and Torcuil dutifully obliges.
And there was me thinking this was going to be a pitch to readers of the Mail and Express, going by the title!
JLT floats a theory: it is to do with the ice caps melting in the Arctic Circle. If it should come to pass, Scotland will become a serious shipping nation in the Northern Hemisphere.
Interested in buying a new house recently, one atop a wide river embankment, I enquired how high the river rose when in full spate coinciding with a high tide.
“25 feet” came the answer.
“Great,” I said. “The house sits at 30 feet. I’ll buy it.”
Really? He actually said ‘wet dream’ in a newspaper article about shipbuilding? Yuk. Glad you’re reading that tripe for us Rev.
Try that again…..
@No no no…yes
My understanding is that the only plane that can operate from the QE class carrier is the F35B. A variant of a plane manufactured by one company. The only other customer for the F35B is the US Marines, memories of Guadacanal in WW2.
No other planes can be used! No one shall buy the second carrier for that reason.
Brilliant strategic planning.
The carrier design is crap. No angled flight deck so simultaneous launch and recovery is not possible. Electric propulsion so no boilers so no steam so no catapult launch of aircraft. I could go on but that is enough for now.
I have this picture in my head of Alistair Carmicheal standing next to Lizzie tomorrow (after he’s had a wee drop of the finest Islay whisky), with that big stupid grin on his face and giving it the full Benny Hill salute. All done to the sounds of “Rule Britannia” proudly playing in the background.
link to nationalarchives.gov.uk
link to nationalarchives.gov.uk
Entropy…. Lets go with the flow… and vote YES.
Just what I was going to say Luigi, the Norwegians build oil platforms, floating rigs and all kinds of dive ships and support / supply vessels in their ship yards. We dont need to build weapons of war that have no return on the investment. Currently most of our oil work goes to Korea, Spain, China or whoever is cheap and cheerful. Our oil vessels are bangers compared to Norways.
UK=Stupid
Norway=Smart
The F35 was discovered not to be effective in performing traditional carrier landings. A new varient the F35C is to be tested in the fall of this year. Meanwhile the entire fleet has been grounded following a critical engine failure, leading to doubts about the entire propulsion system.
A single sqd of these aircraft will cost as much as the carrier that’s intended to take them into battle. We will probably never be able to afford more than a sqd, so the effectiveness of the aircraft is put into question. Its service ratio of 10 hours maintenance for every hour flown, means we could never deploy these aircraft except in “penny packets” of one or two aircraft.
we would have been better off getting back the carrier variant of the F4 phantom, or buying up cheap F18 hornets or F14 tomcats. They’re more effective and we could have got a sqd of these for the price of one F35. Sheer madness.
The carriers are a grotesque nonsense. They will never be the capital ships of a fleet against fleet action, as many of the carriers of WWII were, because such fleets no longer exist and that is not how modern navies operate.
They are for ‘power projection’- the new name for American/British imperialism where they will be used as part of reducing disliked states, like Iraq, to the shambolic bloodbath that it is today. All this at huge cost to the UK taxpayer.
The consultation paper on the defence of an independent Scotland – “Securing the Nation” presents a plan for a modern, efficient force WITH A DEFENSIVE ORIENTATION and equipment appropriate to that role at an affordable cost.
Liam Fox simply succeeded in adding the incompetent farce of ships without aircraft to the new imperialist nightmare.
Perhaps Crichton’s brain has simply boiled over at the ludicrous nature of the situation which he is trying to turn into an argument in favour of the defunct union ?
On the health issue, while I was out canvassing yesterday I met a young guy who has chronic health problems and was still undecided, although all of his family are going to vote Yes. He asked if he could ask me a question, turned out to be two, concerning the N.H.S and benefits. It turned out, as usual, that his concerns were of Westminster’s making, so hopefully I was able to convince him that a vote to make Scotland an independent country was the only way to make sure our N.H.S remained free at the point of delivery, and that his benefits would not be subject to the cuts proposed by both the present co-alition Government, and endorsed by a future Labour Government. Quite frankly, on the doorstep, I have never been asked about our useless aircraft carriers, but plenty of questions about the issues I have highlighted, along with many other matters which are of concern to “real people”, and that, once again, hopefully, will win us this referendum.
Is WW3 about to start and we don’t know about it yet.
4 new generation WMD carrying Submarines.
6 new Astute Class Submarines.
6 new Type 45 Destroyers.
12 new Type 26 Frigates.
2 new 65,000 tonne Aircraft Carriers.
That doesn’t include the aircraft for the carriers or the supply ships and tankers that are needed to keep the fleet at sea. Or navy personnel.
On top of all that, the Royal Air Force and Army are needing re-equipped.
And the committee looking into the renewal of Trident said that the price of it was “secondary”.
Now picture that poor lady who pulled the lid off of a tin of beans and starting eating them with her fingers because she was so hungry.
They could always buy the French Rafale, supposedly way better than the F35B, and probably cheaper.
The Rafale has also a land based version.
Then there is the Saab Viggen?
Much better options for the Scottish Air Force than piggybacking on the failed MOD.
No apologies for going O/T…Archibalds the furniture store in Great Western Road, Aberdeen has removed the Saltire from the flagpole at the front of their store after eight years because there was a complaint (one only??) that flying the Saltire was sending the wrong message, but to whom was it sending the wrong message? Archibald’s are a 100% owned Scottish company, with I believe a head office in Tillycoutrie, they are part of a group that owns a number of stores in Scotland with I presume a base of mainly Scottish customers but it would appear that we/they count for nothing and it would also appear that we, Scotland is the only country in the world that cannot fly it’s national flag without creating a problem that some companies and people don’t have the backbone to ignore.
Papers particularly full of annoying stuff this morning. So to cheer up the silent Yes majority I’d like to post a link to the next anti bias gathering on the 27th July at Pacific Quay, Glasgow. Instead of the 2000 we got on Sunday can we mobilise everyone to turn this into a huge turnout ? There is no big official Yes event planned so lets do our own grassroots thing. I’m asking everyone to contact their local Yes groups and send out the word. There is also a Travel page set up for organising shared travel and/or buses. Let me know if you get a message out in your local area. We need to put those 10000 Yes flags to good use.
I’m sure the Wings contingent will be there again.
Even Russia only has one carrier. Why Brown thought teamGB needs two brand new carriers is another new labour non mystery. Brown was trying to shore up labour vote in North Britain but MOD surely couldn’t have advised him to get two carriers. What are carriers for anyway but delivery of UK strike force to far off foreign places populated by foreigners that threaten the UK, or slaughtering peasants basically.
Then there’s that all important seat on the security council for one more BetterTogether lord or baron. That’s got to be worth £6+ thousand million quid that can be sunk in seconds by a ten million quid torpedo or missile.
I should have said, here is the facebook link
link to facebook.com
or just look for bbc peaceful protest 3.
This wouldn’t be the same F35 that is set to cost the US taxpayer $1trillion would it? And if the US government are ordering 2,457 of them over the next 20 years, we can rest assured that there will a good few wars launched during that time to justify the investment, wars that Westminster will be more than happy to sign-up to, for the exact same reason.
link to rt.com
It’s one of those “Decades of Labour-Tory MOD incompetence a major blow to Salmond” type stories.
Even Daily Record readers may wonder what on earth the writer is on about.
Bugger, its the Saab Grippen I think you meant
If high wage Norway can sustain dozens of shipyards building non defence craft then so can an independent Scotland.
Rosyth has a bright future in an independent Scotland – including military procurement, and its highly successful record in the global market place in a range of other areas, such as offshore energy and marine services, and Labour should stop scaremongering.
The UK track record on defence in Scotland is appalling, with a multi-billion-pound defence underspend and the loss of more than 11,000 jobs in the last decade. With a Yes vote in September we can start to have a defence policy that meets the needs of Scotland.
With Scotland’s own procurement requirements – as detailed in the white paper – along with continued success in the international market, it is clear that shipbuilding has a bright future in an independent Scotland. After generations of closure and decline under Westminster, for the first time we will be able to develop a shipbuilding strategy tailored for Scotland.
Stu :
Let’s not forget about THIS :
link to bbc.co.uk
That’s just the blog, but there are dozens of newspaper and web stories related to that leaked memo – a memo seemingly ‘forgotten’ by the MoD, Labour (who were central to the plans, the media, and even the unions.
Give it a look Stu, and then start telling your readers that what happened to Portsmouth last year was planned in 2008/9, and that a 15-year GUARANTEE was awarded to BAE to build ALL the MoD’s ‘advanced warships’ wherever BAE decided to build them.
Legally, if Westminster breaches that contract, then as happened with those ‘cancelled’ renewables contracts last year, the Supreme Court will find for BAE and that will cost the MoD billions.
It’s about time the Scottish electorate was made aware of this, because it destroys all Westminster’s/Labour/Better Togethers’s nonsense about a ‘Yes’ vote ending MoD shipbuilding on the Clyde.
There’s a very good reason Hammond refused to use the words ‘there will be no MoD shipbuilding contracts’ during the relevant HoC debates.
The contracts have already been signed !
He’d seen that memo, and he’s studied the contracts. He knows that he CAN’T say ‘No’ – and that will all come out after a Yes vote !
Working with children with cancer I remember oncology consultants discussing Trident and the increase in childhood Leukemia. As a staff nurse I was horrified then at these children and adults being put at risk daily.
I REPEAT Vote yes my fellow scots or like today when westminster are putting cancer care out to private tender all will be lost.We must feel sorry for the RUK who have no control over this. We must vote yes so that our people with cancer will be treated fairly and not with profit in the forefront. As a retired nurse I know treatments are expensive so many will not get what is beneficial to their health or lives. wake up it is not too late for Scotland yet . VOTE YES
Here Torquil, your Mum and Dad must have had more of an imagination than you have. Whilst all around us the ship building nations took on all those cruise liners running all over, we were stuck building war ships. Now nothing wrong with a war ship or two, but after you have launched the wee things, and fitted them out, they continue to cost you money. They are kind of like the child you send to school, college, University who never gets a job, okay probably a bad analogy but you get the drift.
Whilst Cruise liners go out and earn valuable money. Now the Clyde was synonymous with Cruise Ships, built the best. So whilst the rest of the World make money the Clyde and by definition all the other ship building still being done in this country is beholden to Westminster. I think we can cheerfully say ta ta to the English Navy.
As mentioned, Norwegian shipbuilding seems to be doing ok. Around 5,000 people directly employed in the yards, and around 20,000 are employed in the industry as a whole.
Although we’ll be able to negotiate some ships from the RN, we’ll likely need another 2 Type 26 and some more support and fishery protection vessels as well as competing for commercial contracts. And given that England seems to be short of serious shipyards, any new RN ships may well end up being built in Scotland.
Like everything else to do with independence, it’s going to better rather than worse!
It was a sad day indeed when Torcuil left the croft.
Just wanted to say as someone who contracted a malignant melanoma way back in 1997/8, hence before we got a Devolved government and waited 10 months to be seen by a specialist. I know things have improved. I was lucky, slow growing and very shallow otherwise I would not be here today. I will say that I had the thing dealt with within two weeks of diagnoses and cannot in any way fault my treatment. My surgeon was horrified that it had been left. I can only say that I had this looked at two/three years before and it was diagnosed as a benign wart type thing. Unfortunately I was unlucky that it continued to develop into something else.
O/T
On Radio five this morning Robert Peston complaining that Google had removed an article about Merrill Lynch as someone had complained under the new EU directive to be allowed to be forgotten.
The sinister bit was that Google would not reveal who made the complaint and that over 50,000 requests had been made to it in Europe to have content material removed.
Moral of the story is ALWAYS take a screen shot of any web article that could be embarrassing to your opponents.
If you can’t find an old story you want to access use Google.com/ncr as the search engine which will get round the European ruling and defeat Unionist politicians / No supporters attempts to cover up their past.
Rev Stu – you might wish to pass an eye over the anti-Andy Murrat=y camments from the BritNats and at the same time the support for Katy Wiles on a separate thread in Cyberbritsn the online record of BritNat slurs and bile:
link to facebook.com
Sigh. Day after day, same old tripe served up from BT and media bedfellows. Now it’s shipbuilding, again. We haven’t had a ‘media run on the pound’ for a few weeks, that will come up again soon.
Will we never have some honesty or real debate from BT? Rhetorical.
All we need to settle this is a nice Yes win. But, the hoping, the wishing and the waiting. My patience is wearing thin!
All reminded me of this old cartoon …..
link to she-says.com
Stu why do you not start another fund raiser to employ this Lady?
At the very least it could save some of your time.
Helena: Just wanted to say…
Good health and long life, Helena!
There seems to be some confusion here.
There are 3 variants of the F35, with the relevant users :
F35A – conventional take-off, US air force & national guard units/army units;
F35B – VSTOL (vertical/short take-off & landing, US marines & UK navy;
F35C – Carrier variant, catapult launch, US navy.
The only people on the planet dumb enough to be using the F35B for a carrier are the Brits.
The carriers are gas turbine powered so they do not have the steam to power a catapult.
Originally the Brits were going to have the F35B but then the US designed an electromagnetic catapult so the Brits changed their mind & said “we’ll have one of those”. Then they discovered the cost (£3bn to fit one in the QE, £2bn to fit one in the PoW) and changed their minds again.
In the meantime of course this dithering cost more money – an estimated £300m just on the QE.
So the Brits will be left with one carrier (hugely overbudget) which is totally incapable of flying anything except F35Bs & helos. They’ll have to use Sea Kings to provide fleet radar as they can’t launch anything else.
tl;dr another monumental cock-up by the Brits, no surprises there.
O/T YES in front,new Courier poll, but the paper is highlighting that in Country areas no is ahead!!
link to archive.today
What do expect from Crichton, he’s a die-hard unionist. Also I see David Cameron’s in Scotland today, I wonder what kind of “Wet dream” he’s preaching.
John Mcternan spat with Paul Lewis
link to mobile.twitter.com
So the Brits will be left with one carrier
I am sure Nigel Farage will suggest it makes a temporary floating camp for illegal immigrants.
Oops saved wrong page!!! Correct one below
link to archive.today
Vestas says:
The only people on the planet dumb enough to be using the F35B for a carrier are the Brits. …. another monumental cock-up by the Brits, no surprises there.
It’s what happens when you try to compete in a league which is way beyond your means.
Dare I suggest it sounds like evidence of someone who is actually too poor, too wee, and too stupid!
“I say Torcuil, could you pass one the hoe old bean” “pass one the hoe Crispin, what on earth’s a hoe” “hang on lets ask Rupert or ones butler perchance, he might know” etc
What is described in the article is a situation of such absurdity that to contort it into an attack on Scotland and a defence of ‘Better Together’ leaves one speechless.
It’s like the Mad Hatter’s question, ‘Why is a raven like a writing desk?’ There really is no answer to it. Sorry, you’re absolutely right then, Torcuil. Well done.
But ‘wet dream’…that’s too much information!
@Liquid Lenny
“During our ground-breaking Referendum Roadshow, we surveyed 3,615 people for their views on September’s vote”
… so, the 3615 people were pre-selected as those having some interest in a Courier roadshow, I assume?
Anyone showing interest in anything to do with the MSM is likely to have a No bias. How many Wingers would rush to a MSM roadshow?
Galamcennalath, spot on.
That’s very clearly the whole of the problem. The British Establishment is still labouring under the belief that Britain is a first rank global military power. That’s what Trident is really about. It’s certainly what these carrier white elephants are about.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with a real military need for the Royal Navy to have any of these. What the Royal Navy needs, more than anything, is more frigate and destroyer class ships, as well as offshore patrol vessels. Carriers are no use for the vast array of jobs the smaller units can undertake, plus everywhere they go they’ll have at least one frigate or destroyer in company most of the time. Should be at least a destroyer and a frigate, to allow as screen to be set up around the carrier, but hey, cutbacks and crucially no real threat means they don’t really need that anymore.
More BS from the BBC. Yesterday the BBC were running with a story that Prestwick Airport was under threat because of an imminent announcement from Ryanair. They were tellng us the news before it happened and really ramping up the fear. Guess what – It never happened, from what I can see Ryanair has become even more comitted to Scotland.
The plan on the carriers is do the general up keep and maintenance at sea and not have the usual dockings etc associated with most warship upkeep programmes so there might not be refit anywhere. Unless there is major defect that necessites a dry docking period.
[…] « Voting No will give you cancer […]
Had a wee read about the carrier and thought right away where are the planes?
It might be the last big RN ship built but why is it being built anyway? The UK Govt are a joke to ask us to feel all “rule Britania-ish” when there are thousands going hungry.
As for the poor cancer patients down south and the care going to tender, Why would they do that with the referendum this year? If we need a reason to vote YES it has to be this one. And a quick look to see how many of the troughers in Westminster will profit from the privatization tells a story on it’s own They are a bloody disgrace.
I cannot fathom why anyone thinks voting NO is anything but ridiculous fantasy. That shower are making no effort to hide what they do but still NO voters are blind to it all.
I know once this gets an airing the folk in England will be up in arms but we should get this message out to everyone in Scotland because we’re next.
I have spoken to folk about the EU and CU but it goes over most of their heads, but bring up the NHS and suddenly they listen. This IS a big deal here and i see this as a vote changer. No amount of propaganda or hype will cover this up.
Some time i worry about us Scots , we always wait till the last minute to open our mouths and too many just thinks it’s made up. They cannot see that Westminster does what it likes .
Helen Wilson/Helena Brown
Re your comments about privatising of cancer treatment in England. This in itself is reason enough to vote YES. The idea that organisations can profit from people who are suffering from cancer is morally repugnant.
I can empathise with you Helena as I am also a cancer survivor having been diagnosed with cancer of the larynx 2 years ago and received prompt treatment from the NHS which has effected a cure.
The bribery has started.
The Evening Times ?@TheEveningTimes 6 mins
BREAKING: Glasgow set for £500m, 28,000 job boost from Cameron | Evening Times link to tinyurl.com … via @TheEveningTimes
Was with said Torcuil Crichton fifteen year ago in the Hebrides filming for BBC Gaelic documentary on oil fields to west of Hebrides and prospects for Stornaway as a platform supply base.
He knows how much oil is untapped to the west but will conveniently forgotten!
@ Alan Mackintosh
What is a Gripp between Vegans anyway.
I got the Saab 9-3 bit right though?
A piece of pure pedantry:
“Those are rhetorical questions, by the way.” No; they would be rhetorical questions if you were inviting us to ask you for the answers, so that you could then produce the witty and devastating replies. If you don’t know the answers, they are genuine questions, not rhetorical ones.
The British Establishment is still labouring under the belief that Britain is a first rank global military power.
So long as it hides behind the coattails of the USA.
galamcennalath
Off Course that’s how it works, but the majority in the biggest city Dundee were for YES. Its the cities that is going to win this for us not the country areas.
F35Bs will never fly from these carriers, and these carriers are completely useless without carrier fleets.
Her Maj, “I name this ship HMS Sitting Duck”
@ Jim Marshall
What was as, if not more scandalous, was the claim that after you are 75 in England, no more knee joint replacements or gallbladder operations.
Can’t be profitable enough and anyway, they are only oxygen thieves.
I remember when Rosyth was an operating naval base where RN ships were based. Try visiting scecretScotland website. You will find some interesting questions from Ming Campbell about Scottish defence base and if you check today there are very few of these bases in existence all lost under the Union. I am retired from RN and used to be based on Polaris Subs for 20 years I am voting YES.
Bugger 11.52
“What was as, if not more scandalous, was the claim that after you are 75 in England, no more knee joint replacements or gallbladder operations.”
I agree, scandalous. Of course these 2 stories have a direct link. Billions on military spend, cut the NHS.
It’s just crossed over into the surreal now, hasn’t it? I mean, something bad is happening, it must be down to Scottish independence. How about those Israeli kids killed a few days ago? Scottish independence. Sarkozy is caught selling favours? Scottish independence. I mean, don’t they even have people at least going through the motions of proof-reading and sub-editing these things any more?
Brainpower, Logic? This article points to neither
Not everyone at Rosyth has forgotten RD57…
nuclear sub development shifted to the south coast at an additional cost of hundreds of millions when the work to develop the site at the much easier seismic site of Rosyth was already well underway.
Unfortunately though, the remaining workforce there will likely swallow the bullshit fed to them by both WM and Babcock.
The R.N. already have an aircraft carrier in service that has no harriers(They were all sold to the U.S. Marines)HMS Illustrious has no planes but is used as an amphibious helicopter assault ship. Will these two white elephants go the same way? It is time that people realise that these military projects are implemented to put cash in the pockets of the rich people who own BAE
@ian foulds says: 3 July, 2014 at 9:31 am
“Maybe the journalist is really a YES supporter”
Eh! What? Oh!
Whatever gave you the daft idea that Torcuil Crichton is/was in any way a journalist?
I cannot really tell you what he actually is without risking accusations of being a vile abusive cybernat. Shall we just leave it at that then?
I popped into our local Tesco store today. The newspaper stall was full of newspapers showing headlines about the dangers of voting No.
Ten feet away were two women wearing green tabards sporting the words ‘Foodbank’. They were collecting for one of the foodbanks that has just sprung up in Perthshire.
Yes, that’s correct: food banks in Perthshire. It’s one of the richest counties in Scotland. They were standing only ten feet away from the newspaper stall with newspapers yelling at us all in bold print just how dangerous it would be if we were to vote Yes.
I shall be voting Yes.
Well the first carrier is apparently slated to be helo only & refitted for the marines.
Which begs the question of “what the hell was the point of HMS Ocean then?” (HMS Ocean is an amphibious assault ship).
Smart money says the second carrier will never be completed & someone (China or India probably) will buy the hull 10 years down the line.
One thing an independent Scotland has to do is get BAE out of ANY bidding process as they’re corrupt to the core. Wouldn’t matter quite so much if they were competent but they’re not.
Liquid Lenny @ 11.19
That poll’s from a year ago.
Weird, when I first looked at it gave the date as 2013. Looked at it again now it’s 2014???
We were told by
O/T
Hillary Clinton on Radio 2. Jeremy Vine asks the Independence Question again; HC aligns herself with Obama, she was a bit more reluctant to voice her opinion this time though.
She doesn’t have a vote, so who cares?
Sorry hit wrong key Will try again We were told by Westminster that no R.N. ships have been built outside of Britain since turn of 20th century what about HMS Endurance and Protector?
Jeez, what gives with that article, now I look at it again and it starts with “with a year to go until the referendum….”
faolie: at 10.57 am
Aye faolie Norway have a diverse ship industry.
MEYER WERFT – Norwegian GETAWAY Ausdocken / Float Out
Following sinky’s comment about Robert Peston, I see he is being quoted in the U.S press as saying Google are “suppressing legitimate journalism”. Talk about pot and kettle. Yup, and put some non-perishables in the Tesco foodbank trolley, and a lot of people were doing the same.
@Velofello
Good question mate, because air-craft carriers need a lot of staff and several support vessels. without these support vessels they are very vulnerable to attack.
Vestas says:
Smart money says the second carrier will never be completed & someone (China or India probably) will buy the hull 10 years down the line.
Yes. Or even both will be sold off.
Just had a look at …
link to en.wikipedia.org
… shows who has what, and what is planned.
There certainly seems to be a market in reworking older carrier hulls.
@D Duncan says: 3 July, 2014 at 9:37 am
“We need the carriers like we need a lobotomy for our brain cancer
The job of aircraft carriers is to ferry attack aircraft and troops to fight enemies that are too far away to be attacked from your home or from your overseas bases. The use of missile carrying submarines is also to attack enemies that are too far away to be attacked from home or overseas bases.
Neither are defence weapons in their own right. They are vehicles to transport attack weapons to attack distant enemies. Consider this though. The so called Ministry of Defence is currently cutting naval, air force and army persons by thousands. Are the Westminster numpties forward planning for defence or for attack?
Let’s never forget which particular bampot signed off on these floating hotels, it was the one… the only… Gordon “I should have been P.M. in 1997” Brown!
Yes folks that’s right the guy who within months of getting into number 11 Downing Street had sold off a load of Britain’s gold reserve at ROCK BOTTOM prices. This is the same man who introduced the 10p tax rate only to remove it a couple of years later but erm sort of forgot to tell anybody. He was left rushing around trying to re-introduce the rate whilst at the same time cutting elsewhere to try and save face… FAILED! 🙂
This eejit signed off on the contracts, the contracts by the way that made certain B.Ae. never lost out on the deal. I’m not having a go at B.Ae., good on them for conning Brown into signing such a contract. The thing is though that the contract he signed made it clear that should one of the carriers be cancelled then the M.O.D. would have to pay MORE to cancel it than it they would have to pay if they just got both carriers built! 😉
I can not think of any other Chancellor of the Exchequer or Prime Minister who has been so incompetent when it comes to signing off on defence contracts. I have just been talking about the two soon to be floating hunks of junk a.k.a. new aircraft carriers. However there are many, very many other defence contracts he screwed up BIG time on but I’ll not bore you any longer! PHEW! 😛
The USA has built its ‘foreign policy muscle’ arund its aircraft carriers.
As usual Westminster is keen to be a ‘reliable ally’
Of course I would never suggest that people like Tony Blair, Dave Cameron, John Major, et all make a small personal fortune out of this reliability!
After reading that article by Torcuil Crichton, my main thoughts were was it written by 2 people or was it originally 2 different articles now pasted together?
Lesley-Anne
You feeling ok today dear? Not a single ahem in that last post from you. You talk sense right enough.
Jim Marshall says:
Lesley-Anne
You feeling ok today dear? Not a single ahem in that last post from you. You talk sense right enough.
Aye I’m fine thanks Jim. 😉
I was kinda *ahem* distracted by the dulcet tones of one Tommy Sheridan coming from my partner’s computer. 😛
Lesley-Anne
Aye,Tommy”s lost his hair but not his voice.
In his book Jim Sillars says we should turn one of the carriers into a floating hopsital/disaster refief vessel that will be an Independent Scotland’s contribution to the aid process. An idea worth pursuing…
Someone was doing a leaflet the other day and asked me if I knew anyone who works in a shipyard. As a resident of Greenock this question would have been laughable 30 years ago…
This is becoming more and more common. I have been to several local debates and the speakers for No highlight points that only a Yes vote can solve and somehow they try to present them as a case for voting No. I am often left scratching my head. One local Labour councillor spoke of the fantastic Welfare system built up by the Labour party in the 1940s. I congratulated him on pointing out the value of a strong welfare system and then promptly pointed out that it was slowly but surely being broken apart by Westminster. This will continue to be the case so I thanked him again for showing the people in the audience the value of the welfare state and the necessity to vote Yes to protect what is left and build it back up again. He was silent after that, especially given that the crowd backed me up with a round of applause. I say, let them talk. They are making the case for us. And again I say Thank you 😉
Carriers…Negotiations
Stop with the negative waves about the carriers please! They are the best thing since sliced bread and in the preIndy negotiations their fantastic value will be balanced against the realistic requirements of a SDF.
Jim Marshall says:
Lesley-Anne
Aye,Tommy”s lost his hair but not his voice.
Aye so true Jim. He is so powerful and passionate. I say to anyone watch the video of Phillipa Whitford and I challenge you to still be a NO supporter afterwards. I also do the same with video’s of Tommy. I challenge anyone to watch any of his speeches and still be a NO supporter afterwards! 😉
When I watch him I often think about the NON debate that is going on because motor-mouth Cameron is too FEART to debate with Alex Salmond. I am left wondering if he is too feart to debate with Alex Salmond what would he be like if he was told he would be up against oor Tommy. 😛
O/T
Excellent another Yes lead…
link to stornowaygazette.co.uk
“Never underestimate the power of the State to act out its own massive fantasies.”
Don DeLillo
I’m often amazed at the debate over these carriers.
A clue might be the 4th July launch date. Of course there are hundreds of carrier aircraft to fly off both of them. They’re American. They ain’t for non-existent UK carrier jets, silly ! After all, the carriers are configured for US aircraft aren’t they ?
Remember when Gordon Brown “wobbled”, hesitating to sign off the deal ? If memory serves correctly there was a smell of burning rubber as a big yankee motor screeched up Downing Street to deposit Mrs Clinton (Secretary of State) and the US Chief of the Defence Staff at No 11 to put Gordie in a head-lock until he signed off the two “UK” carriers – now added to their fleets as required. We pay for them for them to use. Welcome to NATO. Realpolitik I think it’s called.
Thought carriers needed support and protection while they’re at sea or in a battle zone? Last thing you need is for your carrier to go down. (see @muscleguy above). But I heard that we don’t really have any frigates or destroyers, so maybe HMS QE is just going to stick cruising around friendly waters.
Btw, here’s what a real navy looks like. Picture of the fleet at Spithead on HM’s coronation. From the Telegraph (archived), lamenting, crying almost, that there were no ships left for a review during the Diamond Jubilee of 2012.
@ BILL97
I’m afraid you couldn’t be more wrong if you tried.
The Brits go for USA tech as they’re (usually) on a shortlist of of 2-3 USA “allies” who are permitted “official” access to the technology.
This of course gives them bragging rights over the French (and other “less worthy” nations), not that anyone sane would base a procurement policy on that mmmm?
Then again nobody sane would go for BAE as prime contractor given they’ve been caught bribing govts on 4 continents (IIRC – three certainly). Needless to say the Brit govt turns a blind eye to this, no doubt they get their cut one way or another.
The carriers are NOT designed for F35C (C stands for carrier) aircraft, that’s the whole point. If they were then the aircraft carriers would probably have been worth the money – eventually, but they wouldn’t have been limited to USA aircraft then.
So its bugger all to do with the yanks, everything to do with Brit incompetence, dithering & wanting to be one-up on the French.
Noo if that big boat sinks its Scotlands fault its being given a launch useing a bottle of malt whisky,doubley oor fault sending a boat aff drunk.Jist hope that prince charlie dizznae want tae dey the test run,Hide the Bridges.
Slightly off topic.
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If the Royal Navy experiences the same proportionate cuts over the next 20 years as it has suffered over the last 20 years then the RN surface fleet will be smaller than that proposed for the Scottish fleet by the Scottish government
White elephant Aircraft Carriers will end up as billion dollar barges, occasionally being towed from A to B.
Increasing world oil price will make Carriers too expensive to operate.
To expensive to steam anywhere far from home port. Will be limited to UK waters
.
A UK Labour government criminal waste of money, and our taxes.
The defence strategy policy for the last Labour Government in which Gordon Brown was PM, Mr Darling was chancellor and Dr John Reid, now Lord, stated that ‘there is no absolute requirement to build all warships and Royal Fleet Auxiliary vessels onshore ( ie the UK )’ This document further states ‘ there is no requirement for fabrication of basic structures in the UK per se.’
I wrote to Ms Lamont asking her for clarification on this and exactly when Labour changed its policy. She referred me to the shadow defence secretary as this was a matter for them. She then quoted me two union officials giving me their opinion on shipbuilding in Scotland in the event of a yes vote.
Labour changed its opinion when the referendum was announced I would argue. For these non politicians to go round scaremongering is a disgrace but nothing new from Labour. Ms Lamont is telling the workers on the Clyde their jobs are at risk but she claims this is a matter for Westminster and the unions.
The truth never gets out nor gets in the way of a good dose of scaremongering
Poor Danny Alexander – all he could do was stammer through an interview on the subject of carriers this morning
“There are type 26 ships not on order until the referendum dusts settle” is a downright LIE!!
These are signed, sealed and delivered contracts between Royal Navy procurement and BAe.
BAe have admitted that independence may cause some delay, but have also, (and much more importantly) stated that ALL the 12 (or 14, depending on one’s source) type 26s will be built at their Clydeside facility. They also stated that “There is no plan B.” (source: Global Defence Technology magazine.)