Informing ongoing policy
Alert readers will know that we like to keep you updated on the progress of our Freedom Of Information requests. Way back in May this year we sent one regarding the infamous unpublished opinion poll, and got a response the following month.
We weren’t very happy with it, though, and we followed it up. And today, just six months after the initial request, we got a final reply.
We’d sent this:
“Dear Mr Smethurst,
I am unsatisfied with the response to the above-identified request, not least because it seems to have been misunderstood.
While I do not understand how it can possibly be in the public interest to withhold the results of an opinion poll – opinion polls on independence are now published almost daily, why does this particular one require to be secret? – I didn’t actually ask for the poll to be published, but merely for confirmation of its existence or otherwise.
This question was answered satisfactorily, but my second question – for details of with whom the poll data HAD been shared – was entirely ignored. I’m sure you appreciate that it would be clearly unacceptable for campaigning organisations on one side of the debate to have been given such information while it was withheld from the other side, and it seems somewhat improbable (given the close involvement of HM Government with the No campaign) that it would not have been shared with “Better Together” or other No groups.
I therefore repeat my request: which organisations or bodies, if any, was the withheld poll data shared with?
Finally, you cite Section 35 (1)(a) as the reason for secrecy on the grounds that the poll “relates to the formulation or development of government policy”. Are we to conclude from this that HM Government’s policy would change and it would advocate independence if the poll showed a majority in favour? If not, Section 35 (1)(a) would seem not to be applicable, and therefore the poll should be published after all.
Regards,
etc”
And this is what just came back:
Remarkably, despite so much thinking time, the actual content of our letter has been ignored again. The reply goes into great detail about why the poll shouldn’t have been released, which is highly arguable but wasn’t what we asked for anyway. We didn’t ask what was in the poll. We asked who it had been shared with, and that question isn’t even passingly addressed in the reply.
We’re not sure whether it’s worth bothering to keep pressing, because by the time we get another reply we’ll probably have forgotten what it was we were trying to find out. But it’s an enlightening insight into the workings of Westminster, so purely in principle we might have another bash.
Get them referred to the information commissioner – it is your right to challenge the egregious ignorance to be found at the heart of westminster…
and if nothing else it will annoy the feckers.
Deflection, pure and simple, by No 10 in answering the question you didn’t ask and ignoring what you did ask.
On that basis I would submit a formal complaint as opposed to another FOIA request.
Its a great example of the Sir Humphries of this Tory boy world. You can hear Nigel Hawthorn dictating to the next generation of private school/Oxbridge PPE’s destined to rule us. Ask them again who it was shared with.
Silly boy, none of it could have been shared anyway because they were not going to make any plans as they would not pre-negotiate independence.
So the information was entirely restricted to the Cabinet Office for the purpose of informing the making of the public policy of no pre-negotiations, wasn’t it? I mean who else would have needed to know?
Certainly do, and I might ask Helen to write a letter for me explaining why it is in everyones interest that I don’t pay my corporation tax bill this year. She seems very eloquent.
Whit?
For evasion see under complete body swerve (ministry of funny walks sub section (c) paragraph (3) – How to evade answering direct and clear questions). 😉
Give it another bash Rev. See what pish you get back. “Safe space” FFS!!!
Keep pressing them. And write to your MP too asking them to look into it. In fact, all Wingers could start asking their MPs to look into this. Those of us who live in constituencies ruled over by the likes of Darling, Broon, Alexander and Alexander, Carmichael, Curran and Murphy can all assume they’ve seen the info, so perhaps we could just ask them directly if they saw the results of the poll in question. Given that the Labour ones aren’t even in government, it would put the lie to the “government policy-making” issue that dominates that piece of nonsense letter too.
Yes I’d definitely go to the Information Commissioner who has been known, on occasion, to embarrass government. At the very least they’d have to give you answer (or reasons why not to answer) the question they have ignored up to now.
“Propriety and Ethics Team”
Jings.
Blah, blah, blah, obfuscate, blah, blah, however, waffle, waffle…ignore.
Yours patronisingly,
E.S. Tablishment
Director of Unethical Cover-Ups
Next Scottish Labour politician for the chop.
Scottish Labour’s fisheries spokeswoman Claire Baker: “It’s not often I agree with the SNP but on this occasion they’ve got a point. Sending a junior minister from the House of Lords, with no knowledge of the subject, to lead on important discussions about deep sea fishing quotas which mostly affects Scotland is difficult to understand when a Scottish minister who regularly attends these talks is already in Brussels.”
She won’t last long under Murphy.
“….ministers and officials….”
They would have been as well telling you “people n that”
Theres nowt public about public interestw!
I just find it hilarious that Helen is in the “Propriety and Ethics Dept”
I personally find that a lot of things with a Westminster tag is both Unethical and done with a big sprinkling of Impropriety (allegedly – just in case lawyers are reading..lol)
I would press further for who got sight of it. I’ll hazard a guess that it was our friends in Better Together.
Jeezo! It’s like asking them ‘what colour is the sky’ and their reply is about quantum physics!
Misdirection and aversion in equal quantities.
Please do make an official complaint. As already stated, at least it will annoy them!
If at first you don’t succeed try and try again.
Yes Minister.
I thought these guys were supposed to operate a Plain English Policy nowadays?
The whole point of their reply is to bamboozle in the hope you will go away. They know they are not answering the question, because they know that the correct answer is that the data was indeed shared with Better Together.They cannot admit that. Guilt by omission I would say.
Keep going – eventually they will have to apologise as they have, unfortunately, shredded the results.
@ Jim Thomson
I 2nd that. I find it hilarious that Helen is part of the Propriety & Ethics Team.. Had me in stitches that.
I personally find that a lot of things with a Westminster tag these days is both Unethical and done with a huge sprinkling of Impropriety..
(allegedly – in case the lawyers are reading..lol)
It’s likely that the large amount of waffle is intended to distract you Stu. Please keep pressing them on this point – I either want to know who the data was shared with, or to see them say in black and white that they won’t tell us.
Make complaint to information commissioner. Also complain about timescales for cabinet office responses.
Was this a blind answer to the FOIA request?
Compare and contrast?
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/211182/response/558199/attach/3/Lee%20Kindness%20IR319524.pdf
Reply came from Cabinet Office, Propriety and Ethics Team, the Deputy Director no less. Am I also now expected to believe in unicorns?
This is what they do- delay,deflect, distort, full of “wonkspeak” and going round in circles without saying anything meaningful.
Keep at them and escalate to the Information Commissioner.
Slippery, evasive gits.
Get stuck in to them. Who knew what and when?
I’m guessing that the “!Priority and Ethics Team” is the new name for the Labour party. After all whenever anyone from Labour is asked a question they completely ignore the question asked and go off on a tangent answering a question that no one has asked but allows them to attack the SNP. In this case they hear Stu’s question, decide it is not the question they want to hear and go off on a tangent answering a question that they want answer.
Yup, this is definitely an ALEO of the Labour party right enough. 😛
It’s like wading through knee-deep shit, with the smell designed to put you off proceeding any further , they are the worlds master at this.
Repeat after me: Stonewalling. Stonewalling.
You must ask again – a one line unequivocal question will do.
Take it from an ex-civil servant, this is sterotypical Whitehall obfuscation but I also know they wouldn’t delay and divert unless there was something pertinent they don’t want you to know.
Such avoidance suggests there could well be a nugget in there that could prove useful to us / embarrassing to them in the forthcoming election campaign.
Please, Stu, write again and inform them you will refer the matter to the Information Commissioner by a certain date – say one month hence – if they do not reply in full.
Yes, a brief yet courteous request for them to answer the fucking question seems in order.
How will they justify any partial release that occurred?
A response like this means there IS something to hide. Keep pressing. And add on an “appendix” as a separate sheet written in large font:
Simplified Version for Deputy Directors with Learning Difficulties
Who was it shared with?
Who Was It Shared With?
WHO WAS IT SHARED WITH?
It’s like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
Sorry, I am not up to date on this particular subject. Did another person submit the same request?
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/211182/response/558199/attach/3/Lee%20Kindness%20IR319524.pdf
There is no need, and no point, in asking them again, just appeal directly to the Information Commissioner for a decision.
Never allow them to think they can fob you off and terminate a perfectly legitimate request so easily. These are establishment bullying tactics. Keep fighting the good fight.
“….develop policy in advance of the referendum…”
Well we know what the policy was – it was to keep Scotland in UK, so any ‘development’ must have been to work out how best to do it.
So I bet you that if this research was ever published, we would find pensions, currency, defence etc. to be the top matters of concern.
So we have a policy, and we know the best way to implement it. And as it happens, we have a vehicle in the shape of the No campaign.
Of course the No campaign had sight of this research – or at least of a summary of it, because in the eyes of the Government there was no difference between the Cabinet Office and the Blythswood Square office – both were busy implementing government policy.
The fact that as taxpayers, Yes campaigners were directly funding the No campaign may seem outrageous. But the government has an escape clause marked ‘Policy development’ and if you don’t like it….well, what are you going to do about it?
BTW Stu, if you are pursuing this further, I would amend your request to … ‘which organisations was the witheld poll data shared with, either directly, or in summary
You’ve asked twice and given them six months with still no answer.Time to go further up the chain.Dont let it drop.
Keep at it as this will help in the future to inform voters as to how Westminster works against people. This kind of info will be in the documentary which will inevitably come out about how Westminster won the referendum!
I think we know that this poll was about which issues BT should concentrate on to frighten voters such as “what are you most worried about?” because after this poll they constantly went on about pensions, pound and NHS!
Its Helen (wooden horse ) Ewen, not of the Troy veriety.
Maybe the Scottish Evening News will report on this.
As it’s that time of year, have you considered writing to Santa instead?
In 2011 – 425,590 BBC TV Licences were cancelled.
In 2012 – 428,359 BBC TV Licences were cancelled.
The BBC, whether they like it or not, will be held to account.
Don’t give Savile’s agents a licence to print money.
Further facts and figures will continue to be posted on WOS.
Join the fight against the BBC – take action now.
Hurry up Stu, before they apply for the Official Secrets Act to be applied for.
I am surprised that they didn’t have this sort of thing of thing in the London Olympics.
They certainly have taken the sport sophistry to a new level.
Propriety and Ethics Team. Would that be within the Mintruth?
I thought Sir Humphrey had retired …. Seems he’s had a gender adjustment! ?
@Brian W 4:13pm
I was more staggered by the word “Team”
Are the government departments so geared up to be so improprietous and unethical that they need a TEAM to sort it out?
Mind you, it could be worse and they’d need a whole department to deal with it. Maybe they could call it the “Ministry of Truth”.
Damn it @B(tP) type more slowly (about 7 or 8 mins more slowly would do 😉 )
I would have thought this could be construed as maladministration and therefore subject to the Ombudsman, the point being that if the reason given is on-going formulation of government policy, why was it shared with the Better Together campaign who were not in government – Blair McDougall is on record as saying he was shown the results of the secret poll.
This after all was significant public money, a proportion of which came from people voting ‘Yes’.
They need a safe space to work the con more like. Why shouldn’t they be held to account every step of the way? This should include all the Sir Humphrys as they are in positions of influence.
They want you to go away it seems. Wonder why?
Good point Edulis. Taxes of some kind were obviously used,unless of course,Government official paid for it out of the goodness of their hearts. 🙂
It would be interesting to ask the Deputy Director of the UK.gov property and ethix team what exactly her ethix title actually means to her and us. Is it Whitehall ethics to just not answer questions, in the most long winded way possible? Its not unethical, its good goverance making it ethical or what ethical means to your average UKOK civil servant, not that imperial mastter and future Dame Helen is average at all. If you think about all the UK estates of the realm we voted to try and shake off, us commoners did rather well.
Good god do they actually think we consider them to be ethical. I agree with everyone else go back and ask again who the information was shared with and say that you will be complaining to the Information Commissioner with regard to the length of time taken not to actually answer the question.
I’d suggest another FOI request, very short and to the point. Perhaps 3 questions of a one line sentence each.
The longer it is, the more they are able to fudge it.
Oh, your 3 questions were actually short and to the point.
Stu
You received every assistance short of actual help 😀
Go for it!
(Health warning – ICO’s only purpose is job creation in the north west)
the info should certainly be made available in the interests of public trust in our democratic system, or it causes speculative discourse to develop, in any case.
nothing should be above public scrutiny, or how else are we the people going to decide if govts operate within our best interests or not.
they should specifically answer the who was the info shared with question.
resubmit that question.
but we already suspect that no clear answer will come.
I don’t get it. Government policy was already clear: they wished to keep the union. We have been told explicitly that further development, in the form of the “vow” was not government policy – it was party policy. So what is the this waffle referring to? b
Similar to the decision taken on the Prince Charles letters to Government… They don’t want tell you because its not in the public interest to have a hopping mad electorate. Government keeps the information secret, equals control.
The lack of transparency in UK Government is disgusting. It is simply manipulation of the masses.
“We will tell you everything about Government, except the things we don’t want to tell you. And then we will tell you that we have judged it’s in your interests not to know”.
This is important.
I would have one more go then refer to the Information Commissioner.
Thank you.
A complaint is in order. Six months and still not able to read your question far less answer it. And if Blair McDougall saw it then it isn’t secret.
@Helena
“say that you will be complaining to the Information Commissioner with regard to the length of time taken not to actually answer the question.
Probably while they took advice from the various parties involved.
Stu, you have latched onto something here. Someone in the SG should put some weight behind this. At least a request from the SNP would get media coverage.
Straight from the annals of “Yes Minister”. It would be funny in that particular comedy. This is real and it is not at all funny.
I think it’s more Marx brothers with all that legalese:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6u8AgUXPpLM
Many years ago I was told by a primary teacher that she had been taught that you should never ask young children more than one question at a time because they will only answer one. The teacher went on to say her life experience is this can apply to many people well beyond childhood. Specifically she advised never asking a lawyer more than one question at a time because they will dodge some, answer others.
This advice is something I try to use! Treat anyone who might have something to hide as a young child! Ask questions one at a time, wait for an answer, then follow on with the next. It might take less time than having to go back are repeat the unanswered ones.
Keep it up Rev Stu.
If nothing else it is material for a leaflet/poster on how evil and manipulative the British Establishment is.
The message is that we are ruled by evil men. This is an example of their duplicity.
Our Referendum was betrayed. Fairness! Honesty! Morality! No way!
Dear Stu, Stroll on.
The Government.
“Your request would have been likely to encourage, among the public, speculative discourse on the validity of the data, the methodology employed,
The purpose of particular questions, the reason for sharing with particular departments
and the implications for future policy before they were properly considered.
Encourage open and transparent discussion and analysis, can’t have that, that’s what we are paid to do, not the”public”.
They are embarrassed about the questions asked and how specific they were with regards to project fear.
The public would definitely want to know what particular departments they shared the info with as that was the point of your enquiry!
Is this an implicit admission that the information was shared with lots of different departments or just operation bash, smear and fear?
Twin track, ask them again absolutely directly with stated time limit and then send in complaint and launch petition for official inquiry!
I am sure we could raise a few signatures in support.
This all stinks a bit so keep at them. It resembles national expenditure in nature where they spend our money to explore ways to terrify us, control us and rip us off whilst proclaiming the highest ideals.
Get right into them!
O/T I was just watching an interview with Egon von Greyerz, who is behind the forthcoming Swiss Gold Referendum. The interviewer said to him that so much is at stake, what if the government starts behaving like in the Scottish referendum with attacks, fear-mongering, etc….
So our referendum has now become an international byword for fear-mongering, government manipulation, distortion of facts, lack of democracy. To not rule the referendum null and void, but to hold it again at WM expense, is to agree to live in a Brave New World where the BBC is the new soma…
Does Helen actually exist? The BBC license enforcement brigade is full of fictional people.
File under same shit, different day.
The long and short version is that if you’re not happy tell someone who gives a fuck… which clearly is not the people you are trying to get a sensible answer from.
FoI is basically only as good as the UK Government wants it to be, which to the likes of you or I means ‘if we don’t want it released, prole, you can just fuck off.’
They can slap ‘not in the public interest’ on absolutely anything and your grounds for complaint are pretty much worthless regardless of how good your arguments are.
See also under C:Little Britain/Computer says No.
Amounts to the same thing, except you suspect the computer at dealing the FoI requests for the UK Government does actually have a face. Comments on the content of the brain, on the other hand, go as far as your guess is as good as mine.
http://rt.com/uk/204011-corruption-oil-blair-saudi/
Murphy’s hero at it again.
As an experienced FOI officer I can tell you they have breached the act by not answering your questio in the first instance despite having two occasions to do so. In any event the application of S 35 1a is wrong in this instance. Other poll data has been released without harm to policy formulation. Just saying.
Rev – your next port of call on this should be via complaint to the UK Information Commissioner. The point you make about their public interest claim is entirely reasonable. To use a Glasgow coloquialism, “they are at it” and they are hoping by stonewalling that you will lose interest and go away.
Non-plussed:
Russel Brand has made a parody rap number, (mentioned in WoS Twitter) called ‘Parklife.’
What are folk alluding to when they shout ‘parklife!’?
Stu,
When I write to dodgy organisation’s such as the EBC, Government bodies, etc, I always number my points. 1) 2) 3), etc, so that I can follow up with you have not answered 2). 3) and V), etc.
They will always be at it, but the more of complaining the better.
Rev, I don’t like to see so many people making bullets for you,
but as an rookie in this army, I would ask how we could all stand side by side with you on this.
Is it possible that a template letter could be created where we
forward this pathetic response to our local MP’s,
We should en mass be demanding to know what we got for our Tax payer’s money in commissioning this poll.
It would be very interesting to see which MPs are happy with the sentiment of this reply and who support the withholding of information from the general public.
We could all report back with our own individual findings.
Absolutely fantastic. Propriety and Ethics….I can only assume that the departmental naming policy was based on Orwell’s 1984.
We know we cannot trust these people one inch but it is somehow reassuring to see in black and white just how twisted and untrustworthy they actually are.
Sorry O/T but thought folk would like to see a pic of Nicolas tour date Eden court Inverness tonight…
https://twitter.com/theSNP/status/531884979270475777/photo/1
@gillie says: 10 November, 2014 at 4:04 pm:
“Sending a junior minister from the House of Lords, with no knowledge of the subject, to lead on important discussions about deep sea fishing quotas which mostly affects Scotland is difficult to understand when a Scottish minister who regularly attends these talks is already in Brussels.”
This is very much looking like an organized Westminster Establishment’s Campaign”. I also noted this news item today : –
National Grid to make pylons and cables disappear, “in some of the most beautiful areas of England & Wales”, as part of a move by National Grid to reduce the impact of energy transmission on the landscape”. Twelve stretches of pylons in eight areas of countryside have been shortlisted for the beauty treatment.
No matter that burying the overhead lines in the most beautiful areas in Scotland instead of on overhead lines would actually save money of first building pylons and then ripping them down again to bury them.
These actions are payback for having the temerity to campaign for an independent Scotland. Talk about petty minded numpties? Sheesh!
Lol, what a bunch of shysters! I do hope you keep at them on this one Stuart. Channel the proverbial dog-with-bone!
Scotland will be independent by the time you get a response to the question!
“Safe space” atween vacuous lugs.
Give me strength!
Kenny @ 6.29
Funny how another scare story bit the dust after the referendum when B of E Mark Carney said to-day that taxpayers will no longer to be on the hook for Bank bail outs.
These regulations were known about before the Referendum but not in the Establishment’s interested to mention it in order to “clarify” the debate.
Keep pushing for the correct answer, as usual the westmonster political system goes along the lines of
” if you ignore the question long enough then it will go away”.
What they don’t realise is Scotland has woken up and it’s not bedtime for a very very long time to come.
Gary
If memory serves, the Scottish Guv made a request for this information at the time, i remember AS talking about it, on the telly, and he got all the information you got, in it’s entirety, which was the same as yours
Basically “What we’ve said is, and let me be clear on this, because it is important, especially in the light of current information as it now stands, the facts are, and these facts should be paid the most carefull attention because the detail of this is important especially to the the country and its people that everything we have discussed will remain as fluid as possible and that will underline our policy so there can be no doubting our determination to see this through to its proper conclusion which will result in your attention being drawn away to a raindrop rolling down a window hoping you might die before i get to the end of the shite i am talking AND THAT WILL BE OUR POLICY…are you dead yet?..well are you?…
O/T
Apparently we are now sabotaging Strictly….
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/strictly-come-dancing/11220503/Are-Scottish-Nationalists-voting-for-Judy-Murray-to-undermine-Strictly-Come-Dancing.html#disqus_thread
This is a really bizarre outbreak of paranoia. Next we’ll be having Nats secretly influencing the Archers scriptwriters, causing the English cricket team to lose, etc….It says to me they are still scared.
There’s history here: Sir Michael Rake, speaking to the CBI before the referendum, even invoked the Jacobite rebellion.
It’s all to the good if you think about it.
There’s
NHS workers are told they will be stripped of their redundancy packages if they were later rehired.
Meanwhile, the BBC get away with wasting over £10 MILLION of licence payers money on “redundancy” payouts for 286 staff members before rehiring them on permanent or fixed term contracts.
The average payment fell just short of £36,000 but some senior figures received up to £365,000 before being rehired.
Source:
https://archive.today/Mpwc4
Join the fight against the BBC and its licence fee.
O/T
Some more fear and loathing:
“The very powerful nationalist tide sweeping Scotland today, driven by innumerable and managed engines, is not a force for positive evolution but of regression to something pretty barbaric. No one wants to believe this but on a daily basis its growth is evident. Unless something unforeseeable takes place, Scotland will be virtually a one-party state, a highly centralist one and endemically intolerant of otherness. History demonstrates the inadvisability of this scenario.”
Guess who? Not that difficult:
http://forargyll.com/2014/11/helping-it-happen-campaign-launches-today/
What are folk alluding to when they shout ‘parklife!’?
Ah, means unemployment, maybe include US ‘slacker.’
Former Blur title – hated Blur.
Kininvie
On the Telegraph and other ‘newspapers’, we are at the asylum looking in.
@kininvie
That article archived as it saves cookies.
https://archive.today/yujvE
Kininvie
“Once again the English find their democratic will overruled by Scots”. WTF is that all about?
Of course Martin is one of the people who ruined the Scotsman and took the Fleet Street shilling and probably is a “proud Scot” in his spare time.
Probably just my suspicious mind but has a Scottish representative been excluded from the fishing talks so that Westminster can offer to increase other states quotas as a kiss and make up gesture for the misunderstanding of the 1.7 billion requested , or indeed as a make weight towards the payment of such. Tell me am I just perpetually paranoid now?
Kininvie,
They know they won a battle but are losing the war.These big landowners seem to be trying to use small scale working family farmers as a human shield to divert attention from their greed.
Don’t know why my scintillating post disappeared, but needless to say it wasn’t anything pleasant about Martin.
O/T but i hear the Smurph is going to save our doomed NHS by improving the food
That’ll be the winning policy then eh Jim, you’ll get the votes with that one, like money in the bank eh,
or is it “Banker”
RE. Paranoia; I just sit in night after night thinking of ways to undermine Strictly come dancing’s results
Are these people completely bonkers?
He-He-He Hope there’s somebody Scottish in the Jungle this year Mwah-ha-ha-ha…
Lets see now
S.N.P. want to remain in Europe. Tories don’t
S.N P. welcome immigration .Tories don’t
S.N.P. want to help the poor. Tories don’t..
S.N.P. want people to access the countryside. Tories dont
S.N.P. want living wage .Tories don’t
S.N.P. UNDERSTANDS Scottish aspirations. Tories don’t
I could do a similar and bigger list for Labour but whats the point? Some writers of rubbishy patronising and inaccurate project fear articles, like the one linked by Kininvie above demonstrate the level of fear WE now instil in these morons, by not going away
As Robert Peffers said about burying overhead power lines, I think they did this before in some parts of the lake District ( correct me if I am wrong).
I don’t know if this would work but could the power lines coming down the side of the A9 be buried under the road? Any heat coming from the power lines would stop the road from freezing in the winter, and save on repair costs.
I suppose line breakages could be a problem, but in the year 2014 I am sure the road authorities could come up with a solution. If this was feasible then the power companies could pay a large part of the cost of dualing the A9. Just a Thought.
Gary
Must be bored tonight! Just worked out that N.H.S. spending south of the border equates to just over one thousand eight hundred per head of population, whilst in Scotland it is just over two thousand three hundred per head of population. Dont need many lessons from them therefore.
@Gary45%:
Burying power lines is not possible if the voltage is too high, > 30/45 kV. There are capacitive leaks that increase with the voltage, and the reactive power compensation at the end of the line would be too important. Practically, for high/very high voltage lines, aerial transport is the only possibility, barring very short distances.
Joule effect is not that important, precisely because voltage is high (thus current low). A 1 GW line at 400 kV feeds only 2 500 A. Now R = ?•l/S with ? for Cu being 1.68×10^?8, with l = 100 km and S = 0,01 m2 (~ ø 6 cm), we get R = 1.68×10^?8 • 10^7 ~ 0,16 ?, and about 625 kW are lost in heat. That’s about 500 portable heaters. Not quite much to heat a road!
Gary: line breakages could be a problem, but in the year 2014 I am sure the road authorities can come up with a solution.
A wide conduit allowing wires to be pulled through?
Oops, some characters are filtered out.
The first ? in the formula is the greek letter ‘rho’
1.68^10-8
0,16 Ohm (greek letter capital omega).
AuldA honey – thank goodness you provided that clarification, I was almost lost.
@ AuldA
Are you deliberately trying to confuse G.C.H.Q.
@AuldA
Correct me if I’m wrong but DC is far more efficient than AC for transporting over distance because of less heat loss and also our voltage of 240v is less efficient than lower voltages but Britain knows best an all that crap.
AuldA: barring very short distances.
The width of a motorway is a short distance.
OMG, I thought I’d got away from Physics when I left school. What’s that old saying? Physics is all about energy and matter – do I have the energy and does it really matter?
@Natasha
Just remember youngster, you’re here to learn 😀
If you can handle it then please take the issue further Stu. As for the ongoing nastiness towards us, I am pleased that it shows that we are upsetting them. What we need to do is just say ‘oh really’ and let them get steamed up. They need to understand that this is how life is going to be until we get the changes we want. They don’t have to like it, they just have to live with it until they learn to respect the wishes of others.
Ah got it now – the rho variant allows for the general resistance to be quantified as regards the ongoing voltage.
Maybe less O/T than I thought, given that we’re onto physics now:
https://archive.today/y2XxH
The curse of oil is followed by the curse of coal. I find the prospect of Underground Coal Gasification far more alarming than shale fracking.
@Paula Rose
Your current potential knows no bounds as is your capacity for storage.
What roads?
Offshore Underground Coal Gasification is no more hazardous than current oil and gas extraction and will be using the latest technology from the oil and gas industry.
Using the system in Firth of Forth certainly should be under far stricter controls but with proper safeguards there is over 200 years of Scotland’s total energy needs lying under the North Sea although I am happy to wait until we are independent to exploit it.
Thanks AuldA, I thought I had just come up with the funding for the A9, on a serious note why are parts of England considered more important for beauty e.t.c than Scotland? After all we are supposed to be one big family.
Gary
I don’t know why anyone’s suggesting writing to the Cabinet Office for a third time. Clearly the next port of call is the Information Commissioner.
@AuldA in the 1960’s I was regularly involved in cable contracts at 275kV in Glasgow and Edinburgh.These were nitrogen gas compression cables and ran from Windhill,through Drumchapel and in Edinburgh from Kaimes to Dewar Place. You will see little discs on lampposts along the routes. In 1962 there were contracts planned for areas of London at 400kV.
These underground cables were thought to be 24 times the price of overhead cables. Submarine cables surprisingly were cheaper than underground cables as water pressure and temperature dissipation effectively reduced the insulation requirements.Heating and cooling as load altered was the most technically challenging. I do not know the current (sorry) price situation as aluminium and copper prices are variables as are the labour costs.
@ cynical Highlander – giggle.
Keep asking Stuart. They obviously don’t want to answer your question, and there’s probably a good reason why. Will be interesting to find out.
Handclapping 10.03pm
Youngster. I like that.
I did actually do A level Physics, but only because I was in love with the teacher (who barely noticed my existence). I forgot everything straight after the exam. I’m only having a dig (boom, boom!) because I’m jealous of people who actually understand it.
Physics is all about energy and matter – do I have the energy and does it really matter?
thanks for the giggle, Natasha. That sums up Physics at school for me as well.
Don’t give up. However, having had experience with Government, your schoolboy error was to ask not just one but three questions. This gives ample room for a response which is tenuously related to one of your questions. But which will steer a skilful path between any of the points you want answered. In this way the response when filed looks perfectly reasonably. It’s a skill honed and developed in the debating societies of Oxford an Cambridge.
Ask ONE question and keep it very, very simple.
BBC pulls ‘Fake Sheikh’ programme.
https://archive.today/hojFu
I see in the Groaniard there is an article on the post 2015 austerity cuts with £30 billion and more in the frame for the chop. This Better Together thing just gets better and better.
Of course none of it is news to us. We warned about swinging cuts, we said that Scotland was energy rich and that BT were talking Scotland down, we said that England was lurching to the right and that Miliband’s chances were slim.
The question is, why did you vote No? How could we have made the message clearer?
@ Gary 45% and Auld A
I dropped in and out of the campaign against o the Beauly Denny line .
My understanding was that Elec Authority argued that under grounding was not practical due to cost . As an aside this was based on 2010 costing of 1970 practices and cables (Old Technology at current prices). Application of Modern cabling with synthetic oil filled EHV cables and 2010 undergrounding machinery most of the line could have been under grounded at 20% of the cost given by Elec Authority , all be it still a bit more expensively than Pylons .
The point is ALL technology has improved in massive leaps in the last 10 years , even the high voltage stuff .
My experience has shown as above . Authorities decide the end goal .They will then waffle any crap to make the case For their end goal . Right and wrong does not come into it .
@Capella says: 10 November, 2014 at 6:07 pm:
“A Comlaint is in order. Six months and still not able to read your question far less answer it. And if Blair McDougall saw it then it isn’t secret.”
Perhaps also with an enclosed recommendation as to where the recipient could attend English Language Comprehension Classes in their local Area. Perhaps even an On-line Web-link or Correspondence Course address might also suffice.
@kininvie
O/T
Some more fear and loathing:
“The very powerful nationalist tide sweeping Scotland today, driven by innumerable and managed engines, is not a force for positive evolution but of regression to something pretty barbaric. No one wants to believe this but on a daily basis its growth is evident. Unless something unforeseeable takes place, Scotland will be virtually a one-party state, a highly centralist one and endemically intolerant of otherness. History demonstrates the inadvisability of this scenario.”
Guess who? Not that difficult:
http://forargyll.com/2014/11/helping-it-happen-campaign-launches-today/
Oh good…After a few months absence I see unionists are back to their standard SNP=Nazis routine. Do they ever get bored with this tedious pish? It is a rhetorical question, but it really is amazing. These people have nothing positive whatsoever to say.
Sorry nodded off there …………you have to keep going if only to give Helen ‘in charge of an important department’ something else to do!!
Just to point out to the Scottish fishermen who say they dont want to play politics they just want the best deal.
You’ll get what what you deserve from the UKnighted Kingdom if you dont get involved. Remember, “THE SCOTTISH FISHING INDUSTRY IS EXPENDABLE” and you’ll have a parade of UK so called Ministers with no experience closing you down bit by little bit, “exactly the same as the shipyards”, and then make you feel gratefull they threw you a bone every now and again to keep you going, “exactly the same as the shipyards”
@Paula Rose says: 10 November, 2014 at 10:43 pm:
” … giggle.”
Ohm my giddy aunt! – Paula Rose has the giggles!
‘On them, on them, on them! They yield!‘
Can anybody tell me where the Nazi tag comes from exactly? I was paying particular attention at my last Branch Meeting but cannot recall any plans to invade other bordering countries ,form a dictatorship, euthanise the handicapped or those from “inferior” nations .Does S.N.P. membership entitle me to a uniform I have received yet? I clearly have not read party policy very thoroughly according to some observers
Dr Jim
I see you heard the same RS bulletin this afternoon. I couldn’t believe the stuff I was hearing from the ‘scottish’??? Fishermans federation leader.
GCHQ couldn’t have scripted his lines any better.
Unbelievable stuff. I just don’t get it.
Natasha says:
10 November, 2014 at 10:43
Did you here about the man who got cooled to absolute zero.
He’s OK now 😀
OT: You know those Royal Navy sophisticated Type 26 frigate ships that if we vote Yes in September referendum that would not be built on the Clyde, Well they could be built in France or Italy now. http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141109/DEFREG01/311090024/
So from 70’s with 30000 ship yard workers on the Clyde to 0 by 2015, Vote No to keep the yards open they said, Feel really sorry for those ship yard workers, except for those workers that we used by Better Together propaganda videos.
By the time your request reaches the Information Commissioner (another tentacle of the british establishment), any mention of the said poll will have been made illegal by a secret kangaroo court.
The UK political system is the MOST corrupt political system in the world.
Cynicalhighlander says
“Your current potential knows no bounds as is your capacity for storage.”
Ooh er missus! 🙂
Paula Rose says
“Ah got it now – the rho variant allows for the general resistance to be quantified as regards the ongoing voltage.”
Ah ha, I was waiting for someone to come up with that,
now come on people I don’t do this for fun so pay attention, (Paula Rose can you stay back after class for additional tuition?)
I’ll say it again so please try to get it this time
An earthquake near the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska, creates a single “tidal” wave(called a ‘tsunami’) which propagates south across the Pacific Ocean. If the average ocean depth is 4 km and seawater density is 1025 kg/m
3
, estimate the time of arrival of this tsunami in Hilo, Hawaii.
Solution:
Everyone get out your Atlases, how far is it from Kenai to Hilo? Well, it’sabout 2800 statute miles (4480 km), and seawater
density
has nothing to do with it:
?? = = ? ?
travelo
x4480E3 mt22600 sc9.81(4000 m)
Ans.
6.3hours
So, given warning of an earthquake in Alaska (by a seismograph), there is plenty of time to warn the people of Hilo (which is very susceptible to tsunami damage) to take cover.
See?
its simple! 🙂
Now Paula Rose, about this disruption in class……..
Bob Mack says
Can anybody tell me where the Nazi tag comes from exactly?
Arthur William Donaldson (13 December 1901 – 18 January 1993) was a Scottish journalist and Scottish National Party (SNP) politician. He was leader of the Scottish National Party from 1960 to 1969.
Donaldson came into contact with Robert McIntyre, one of the leading members of the SNP and his involvement with the party deepened.
In May 1941, during World War II, Donaldson’s home was raided by police who suspected him, and a number of other SNP figures, of “subversive activities”, due to their support for the Scottish Neutrality League. An informant of MI5 told desk officer Richard Brooman-White that Donaldson intended to set up a puppet government akin to that of Vidkun Quisling in the event of a Nazi invasion. As a result of this information, Donaldson was arrested and interned under Defence Regulation 18B, at first to Kilmarnock Prison and then in Barlinnie Prison in Glasgow. He was held for six weeks.
According to papers released by MI5, which led raids against many Scottish nationalists, “subversive literature” and a “large cache of weapons” were found in the house.[2] The allegations in the MI5 files, which were initially released in 1994 after Donaldson’s death, were absolutely denied by his widow, Violet Donaldson, and by the leadership of the SNP at the time.[3][4] Donaldson was never charged, and no evidence for the MI5 allegations has ever been produced.
In other words BULLSHIT!
Reply to john king
All on the word of an “anonymous” tout.
Labour likes to twist the words “National” Party to Scottish Nationalist Party then to National Socialist Party. No lie is too big, too wee, or too dirty for the British Nationalists.
Then they and their media backers like to call themselves “socialists”. Again, no lie is to0 big …
@ Cootie & Natasha
Surely 0K
@John King
Yeah, what’s in a name? I was a Labour and sometime Liberal voter for many years and never got it, the whole nationalist/nazi bollocks. Only morons or snakes of the highest water either use or believe that errant fucking nonsense. You judge people by their actions, not innuendo, rumour and smear.
Last I checked the SNP never invaded anyone, or set up a work camp, or participated in ethnic cleansing, or wrecked an economy by piling all their cash into armaments production instead of social projects, or participated in police state night time raids on political dissidents.
If they ever do participate in such acts, then the pricks who keep pushing this ridiculous myth might have somewhere to go. But until such a thing comes to pass, they are simply arseholes peddling the vilest of smears in the name of party politics. We’re done with that. Party politics is the worst form of tribalism and its led us to the happy place we live in today. Time to step on it, slap the weans and put our entire political house in order by getting them to play nice or we’ll take away their toys.
@silver19
What happened to the better together statement that the Royal Navy would never buy ships from a foreign country?
Another lie bust within weeks of the referendum. The Tories are just taking the pish now.
It would not surprise me if they bought the French frigates. No need for Scottish workers now they have secured Faslane. That is all they have ever cared about.
What’s in a name.
Actions rather than words.
Support education, NHS, social care the elderly, bus passes etc.
Tell lies to illegally invade, sanctioning the vulnerable, food banks, tax breaks for the wealthiest, the debt increases, frauding Bankers, corrupt lying politicians. Gerrymandering, in bed with the Tories.
Which one to chose?
Unionist free by 2016
Vote SNP/Alliance
Independence by 2020
@Dr JM Mackintosh 8:43am – do you mean this?:
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141109/DEFREG01/311090024/Britain-Struggles-Costs-New-Frigates
@stuartiannaylor in http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/10/european-arrest-warrest-u-turn-vote-commons-chaos?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2&commentpage=1
“The politics of this Tory government in my lifetime is an all time low.
Thinly veiled lies and deceit that play for the benefit of the few.
I don’t think we have seen their likes before.
They are damaging our national reputation, playing fast and lose with the constitution.
The most dangerous party I think I have ever seen.”
I know it’s the Guardian, but even so – Cameron is the one whom 2 million Scots chose to ‘take care’ of them rather than look after their own affairs.
Who would put their baby in with a rattlesnake for safekeeping. Yep, No voters.
The Tories have always been whores. But at least they used to try to cover things up. Now, they’re walking about with their tits hanging out.
Problem is – what choice is there.
Dave’s a tit and Ed’s a *rick.
Ps. I used to speak a little more responsibly. Now I’m so pissed off I don’t seem to care anymore. I’ve changed since Indy. Must get a grip.
@stuartiannaylor in http://www.theguardian.com/law/2014/nov/10/european-arrest-warrest-u-turn-vote-commons-chaos?CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2&commentpage=1
“The politics of this Tory government in my lifetime is an all time low.
Thinly veiled lies and deceit that play for the benefit of the few.
I don’t think we have seen their likes before.
They are damaging our national reputation, playing fast and lose with the constitution.
The most dangerous party I think I have ever seen.”
I know it’s the Guardian, but even so – Cameron is the one whom 2 million Scots chose to ‘take care’ of them rather than look after their own affairs.
Who would put their baby in with a rattlesnake for safekeeping. Yep, No voters.
The Tories have always been whores. But at least they used to try to cover things up. Now, they’re walking about with their tits hanging out.
Problem is – what choice is there.
Dave’s a tit and Ed’s a *rick.
Ps. I used to speak a little more responsibly. Now I’m so pissed off I don’t seem to care anymore. I’ve changed since Indy. Must get a grip.
and now I’m posting twice – AAgh!! Apologies to everyone.
Macart: Can anybody tell me where the Nazi tag comes from exactly?
The paragraphs John King lifts verbatim from Wikepedia – not a ‘history book’ to be trusted – are usually quoted by Scotland’s enemies in tandem with MacDiarmid’s praise of aspects of fascism before he rejected its doctrines.
Read in isolation the casual reader is left in ignorance of members of the British aristocracy and Labour party who fraternised with Hitler and Mussolini, or actually joined the Fascist party, as in Oswald Mosley’s case, (father of Max) forming their own English group, the ‘Blackshirts.’
Donaldson was SNP leader for a few years.
Smear merchants turn purple with rage when you tell them Churchill knew about the Nazi’s plans for Jews, plenty of reports sent to London of Jews getting rounded up – and he knew about the extermination camps yet did nothing about them.
Regarding independence by 2020, does anybody know what the projected figure for the national debt is going to be by then?
Remember what the Blue Tories, Lib Dums and especially the RED TORIES were saying would happen if you voted YES.
Defence contracts for the Royal Navy would not be given to the Clyde and Scotland. Well see what happened with a NO vote.
Who has told the lies?
http://www.defensenews.com/article/20141109/DEFREG01/311090024/Britain-Struggles-Costs-New-Frigates
A YES vote would have seen a Scottish Defence Force (Navy) building and maintaining ships on the Clyde and in Scotland.
Independence by 2020
I think those slogans should be dumped, not the ideal, just the slogans.
No point in handing ammunition to our opponents. I have an image of a unionist cartoon with every independence date set deleted by a slash line across it… why offer them another one?
Churchill was also the only PM to send tanks to a city in the UK to quell industrial unrest in – Glasgow. Google it, and you will find it fascinating and outrageous. Also saw some amazing pics from the time.
The Nazi thing was used extensively all over the net prior to the vote, and always enraged me, as was intended, as it is such a heinous smear on a govt. and everyone who voted for them.
@Bob Mack: not intentionally 🙂
@Cynical Highlander:
Correct me if I’m wrong but DC is far more efficient than AC for transporting over distance because of less heat loss and also our voltage of 240v is less efficient than lower voltages but Britain knows best an all that crap.
I hope to make this simple.
First, as to the voltage. As you know, power is the product of both voltage and current: P = UI. But losses caused by what is called the Joule effect – due to the finite resistance of every material (barring superconductors) – increases with the square of the current: W = RI2. So, to minimize the losses, you have to minimize the current, and, therefore, increase the voltage (at constant power). That’s why long feeders are always run under high-voltage. The higher the voltage, the lesser the losses.
DC is indeed more efficient because of what is called the ‘skin effect’. As soon as a wire conducts AC, the current tends to concentrate itself on the rim of the wire. Since the current flows near the surface and avoids the center, it is as if the wire became thinner, and since the resistance is inversely proportional to the surface of the wire, Joule’s losses increase. Now, this effect is more pronounced at HF and above, but it is already noticeable at 50 Hz, which is the frequency of our AC in Europe. At DC, the current spreads homogeneously through the wire, losses are minimized.*
So why AC rather than DC? Because there is no known way to simply step-up DC voltage. You can step it down, but using dissipative systems (resistors), so you just squander away a lot of the power you produced. This is thoroughly inefficient. Whereas with AC, you just use transformers, which are nothing but two coils (whose number of loops ratio determines the voltage transformation ratio), and you can alter whatever voltage into another with efficiency rocketing above 95% in some cases. The choice between AC versus DC was a hard brawl, fought in the US at the beginning of the 20th century. Eventually AC, advocated by the famous Serbian engineer Nicola Tesla, won.
Next question: why 50 Hz rather than, say, 10 or 500 Hz or something else. Well, we have seen that, because of the skin effect, losses increase as the frequency increases (skin depth is inversely proportional to the square root of the frequency). So, we could use, for example 5 or 10 Hz. But as frequency decreases, it becomes increasingly more difficult to confine the magnetic field generated by the coils of the transformers inside the transformers. And all the magnetic field lines that flow away from the transformers are lost and therefore add to losses, much quicker than Joule effect in the wires. To counteract this, we use iron based housings that gather and bend the magnetic flux. However, at very low frequencies (~ 1 – 50 Hz), the mass of iron to use for each transformer to work properly would be unconscionably large. So there is a trade-off to make, and the best overall frequencies are in the vicinity of 50 to 60 Hz. Europe chose 50 Hz, whereas the US opted for 60.
*The skin effect has however a beneficial effect. It means that you can use copper (which is expensive, but has one of the highest conductance of all substances) just for the outer shell of the wire and, in the core, go for a cheaper and maybe more mechanically resistant material, such as aluminium. It is even possible to manufacture hollow wires, where the central hole can then be, for example, stuffed with optical fibres.
@Famous15 and @Tackety Beets:
I’m still unfamiliar with that level of detail in Scotland’s geography, so I’ll have to check out how long these underground lines were. But dozen of kilometers seem reasonable. I read on Wikipedia that above 30 km, one has to revert to DC because of capacitive loads, which agree more or less with what I was putting forward.
Now, I don’t claim to be an authoritative source on the matter. Most of my knowledge is second-hand: I graduated in electronics/microwave which, albeit using the same medium, i.e. electrons, does not involve the problems linked to power transmission (except maybe in aerial feeders, but they barely exceed a few meters length). What I learnt I did though my late father who was, him, deeply involved in power generation and transmission. So I picked up his books and skimmed through them, but most of them had been printed in the 60’s or 70’s. That’s why my knowledge on the subject might be outdated, especially w/r to the technological breakthroughs recently made.
Apology for the completely O/T rambling.
It’s surely a bit rich to be called Nazi’s by perpetrating paedophiles and/or paedophile protecting parties?
Y’wanna fight dirty?
(apologies for all the alliteration)
As regards NAZI tag.
The UNIONISTS should look a little closer to home. The Queens uncle (the abdicated King) was a Nazi, members of the establishjment were nazis. Mitford sisters – Nazis.
Jeremy Hunt’s uncle was Mosely the leader of the blackshirts in britain.
”The Right Club” (look it up on Google) had 135 male members and 100 female mebers all from the establishment. The owner of the Daily Express was a Nazi.
Lord Semple sold a member of Churchill Government/war Cabinet was a ("Tractor" - Ed) giving secrets to the Japanese . He showed them how to fly planes onto carriers, and continued to betray this country throughout the war.
There are plenty more of these nazis out there.
As for Thatcher I throw this in. Thatcher got a place at Oxford in 1943, not on merit because there was others made it before her. But others didn’t go to Oxford deciding to instead go and do war work. Thatcher took one of their places rather than do war work. Remember Thatcher called the Unions ”the enemy within”. Well i think we can see who was the real enemy within.
@Manandboy if only it were possible to Like a post in here!!!
Some news from our favourite comedian, John McTernan: http://www.policy-network.net/pno_detail.aspx?ID=4772&title=Labours-challenge-in-the-post-Blair-era
Unfortunately it is mainly about English politics, so actually quite sensible and not ridiculous and hilarious.
I’m disappointed 😉
Churchill encouraged the nasties to attack the Soviet Union and snapped up their scientists after the war.
They really went to war to save the Empire and not stop fascisnm. Same as the US Civil war was about secession and not slavery till used as propaganda after the war started. US President Lincoln and CSA President Jeffries said so. General McClellan persuaded Lincoln to abolish slavery as an economic tool against the South.
Hitler was encouraged to believe in the reunification of England and Germany and could have invaded several times. He promised to take the Empire away from Britain and create a United Europe, which happened anyway. He was a great admirer of England’s Divide et Imperia politics that enabled the to rule such a large section of the world and even copied these tactics into his propaganda machine. The BBC was an acceptable propaganda machine for the duration of the war and the cold war and has not change much since.
@GB
Oh, well aware of the historic connections that all parties and strata of society had to nazi Germany of the time and it really did reach into every corner of UK politics and society.
What bearing Labour, Tory, SNP, rich or poor’s associations of the time have to do with today’s politics just leaves me mystified. The fact is there is absolutely no reason to use this horrendous narrative now except as an awful tool of division in tribal politics.
I think it was John who asked the original question however.
An interesting judgment by the Court of Justice of the European Union that will certainly cheer up many people in England, especially the Prime Minister:
http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2014-11/cp140146en.pdf
That’s an interesting article Kinivie in for argyll. I can see now how the opposite sides are facing up.
On their side, they take comfort in thinking we are all intolerant nazis who would kick the English out and lead the economy into Zimbabwe style ruin under King Eck.
On our side, we think they are idiots hoodwinked by British nationalist propaganda from every news source, and if people just got their news from the internet we’d already be free.
Both takes are wrong. The most powerful argument against the unionists is simply to be normal and support independence. They can’t demonise half the whole country. On our side we have to face the fact that many people chose to be British and the media merely confirms their existing views, rather than shaping them.
We still have to create alternative media, but sometimes it feels like it really will take another generation to make a difference in attitudes. Sorry for the depressing post, I will cheer up after two minutes silence 🙁
The plebs need to know nothing, got it!
@james Caithness.
You forgot the royal british legion who went to meet the nazis in Germany and I do believe invited them to London for a sail up the Thames.
Macart: The fact is there is absolutely no reason to use this horrendous narrative now except as an awful tool of division in tribal politics.
Good point.
I have added information about Douglas Alexander, Wendy Alexander, Brian Ashcroft, ( Wendy’s husband) Andrew Brown (Gordon’s brother) Clare Rewcastle ( Andrew’s wife).
The power of the personal network encompassing all of those so far identified in my post is staggering. Gaining a 45% yes vote confronted by such opposition is indeed a remarkable achievement. I will continuewith my work on this.
Ed Has tumbled Alexander and puts blocking measures in place. Political leaders in trouble circle the wagons, and that is what Ed Miliband has done by promoting Michael Dugher and Lucy Powell. Dugher is an effective bruiser and an old ally of Miliband’s from their days working for Gordon Brown. Lucy Powell used to run the leader’s office and has had a meteoric rise since her election in a 2012 by election. Her appointment as Shadow Cabinet Office Minister will cause all sorts of jealousies on the Labour benches. Watch out for the briefings against her from ‘friends of’ Douglas Alexander, who she is now deputy to on the general election campaign planning. She’s been appointed to that role to watch what he’s doing. There could be fireworks
http://caltonjock.com/2014/11/05/bbc-scotland-labour-party-mouthpiece-in-scotland-politically-corrupt-biased-public-inquiry-badly-needed/
Craig P, on a very depressing morning it is so true about many people in this country, and the problem with not being a “proper” country. The People of Catalonia see themselves as a cohesive community and because of that cannot be exploited the way people here have been. A proper country would not have tolerated the fact that they do not have a press or a broadcaster other than one controlled by a Government. Sky and the Sun were also brought under the heel of the Government with the confection of the Phone Hacking Scandal, has anyone in authority, other than lower orders been brought to book, only a few have been forced to fall on their swords, but whether you like Murdoch or not and I did not, at least he did hold a line with those in power, that was removed. The BBC had the same done with Andrew Gilligan and Dr. Kelly. What a useful tool that was, the BBC will never face up the Establishment ever again, and Labour are that Establishment here.
As for the Landowners of Scotland, well if you check, so many are still those Lords who betrayed their country not once with the Treaty of Union, but twice with the Wars of Independence. So many still hold land and a foot in all the countries of the Yoo Kay.
alexicon says:
11 November, 2014 at 10:58 am
@james Caithness.
You forgot the royal british legion who went to meet the nazis in Germany and I do believe invited them to London for a sail up the Thames.
====================
There are many other examples.
New Law, This just in,
David Cameron says everybody who works must hand their wages over to their next door neighbour whether they like it or not, to then be dripped back a little each day as your neighbour sees fit, with an amount held back to facilitate your neighbours increasing wealth……
Ya think the NO voters will go for that? Coz that would be stupid would’nt it?
@ Grouse Beater
English Establishment and Adolf Hitler, heaven forfend.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Hitler/house/Homes_and_Gardens_Nov1938/
Be warned!
This is the site of Nazi historian David Irving.
It is of an article written by one Ignatius Phyre ( a pseudonym) about Adolf Hitler’s Berghof home and is as hagiographic as you can even imagine.
Note the date and the fact that the original, with photographs and lists of visitors in truly unbelieveable.
The other saved versions of this article seem to have all disappeared from the web.
It is difficult to be certain who actually owned this journal at this period. Enough to say that when it surfaced in a Guardian article some years ago IPC tried to have the article made forgotten.
Some savoury types visited this home, Establishment unsavoury.
Good luck.
Ah, the Guardian article, which I thought to be deleted had been moved and here we are
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/03/secondworldwar.blogging
Am I missing the point here? This poll was conducted in the public domain. It wasn’t a ‘private’ poll of MPs opinions, or a commercial poll with sensitive buying trends. It was (presumably) a poll of a random sample of the public. Paid for with public money. This information is, effectively, already in the ‘public’ domain, i.e. the people who answered the questions individually. The reasons given for withholding this information are logically indefensible. Therefore we have to conclude that some political pressure has been exerted to withhold the results. Something the person in charge of ‘propriety’ and ‘ethics’ should find ‘uncomfortable’.
The Royal British Legion invited their German Counterparts to Engerland. They all sailed up the Thames giving the Nazi Salute. The Guards also carried a Nazi coffin with full Swastika regalia.
The English football team gave the Nazi salute at the Berlin Olympics, all at the behest of the Foreign Office.
Nazi regalia and repros fly off the shelf in Engerland and online.
To call the SNP “Nazis” is par for the course at Labour gatherings and meetings and in propaganda by word of mouth. Occasionally you get the odd MP, MEP, MSP, or Cooncillor numpty who is daft enough to repeat it in public and is swiftly forced to retract with back handed apologies. “What I really meant was …” Aye right. We all know what you really meant.
If you want to know who is the real Nazi party in Scotland then check out the political compass website…
http://www.politicalcompass.org/ukparties2010
(It supposedly has some link to Glynys Kinnock – well according to Wikipedia – so can be viewed to give a true representation of Labour)
Labour’s closest allies in the fascist / neoliberal grouping are the DUP – hence their OO allegiance – and the BNP who they campaigned alongside.
These three are natural allies hence why they supported each other in the referendum campaign.
The SNP are very moderate in comparison with the rest of the mainstream Unionist parties.
We know that but try telling your average SLAB voter who still thinks they are voting Labour for a left wing socialist party.
They were – 40 years ago – not anymore.
No. They never were40 years ago and never were.
Keep going!
I believe the British Legion Scotland warned against fraternising with the Nazi’s, unfortunately Britain was full of them. The heid Fascists in Scotland before the war were, Boyle the earl of Glasgow, they were elevated to the peerage for selling their country at the Union, maist Glesga folk have never heard of them. The other heel-clicker was named McLetchie, faither of the late “Taxi for McLetchie”, leader of the Tories.
An excellent book on the Brit-Fascists & the duke of Windsor is “Hidden Agenda” by Martin Allen, a shocking book on a ("Tractor" - Ed) who escaped shooting because he was the ex-king and his cohorts.
All I feel capable of adding to this is that when the flux linking a circuit changes, an emf (electromagnetic force) is induced.
The magnitude of the induced emf is directly proportional to the rate of change of flux linkage.
Furthermore, the induced emf acts in such a manner as to oppose the cause to which it is due.
I’ll hold these thoughts far a day then re-examine through a new lenz…
8=)
Brian Doonthetoon honey – could you not have posted that earlier, would have saved me so much time.
I think the matter should be passed to the Information Commissioner south of the border and the Information Commissioner for Scotland. They are different people. Interesting to see who thinks it lies in their bailiwick. The information request was made to the Cabinet Office in England but the information is of more public interest in Scotland.
@Rev. Stuart Campbell
Rev, I often go on FoI odysseys and can tell from the responses here that you have them beat. Please keep pushing this one. They only ignore your question more than once if the really don’t want to answer
I wonder are there any legal angles here outside of the obvious conclusion that they are covering up wrongdoing and won’t be able to keep the lid on this one if you keep pushing?.
I think you have to go to the commissioner first before the law – however referral to the referendum referee might be an idea.
@Ken50011 November, 2014 at 8:46 am
Unionist free by 2016 Vote SNP/Alliance Independence by 2020
Keep canvassing for an alliance – 59 seats is worth aiming for even if ones offical target is 30
Hang in there Stu. You’ve got them on the run. I’ll ask my MP Gregg McLymont to raise it. Not holding my breath.
Please continue – your original question needs to be answered. If it does nothing else, it will keeps their bums squeaking!!
It’s a war of attrition Stu, they want to grind you down and give up. Get Peter Cherbi onto them. He’s an expert at getting public info.