The less-deserving pro-independence website

Wings Over Scotland


Aneurin Bevan’s grave

Posted on November 23, 2014 by

Labour shadow work and pensions secretary Rachel Reeves on Sunday Politics.

Did you spot what she got wrong, readers?

“What our welfare state was based on was that you pay into the system, you contribute to the system, before you’re able to draw down on benefits.”

No it wasn’t, you stupid, hateful woman. That’s the exact OPPOSITE of the basis of the welfare state. What you’re describing is in effect a personal pension, where what you get back is directly related to what you put in, where your payments are and remain an individual asset and investment.

But the principle of a welfare state, indeed the entire concept of socialism, is “From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”. In a welfare state, some people get back more than they pay in, and vice versa. It’s an inescapable fact of the structure. Some are chronically ill and/or disabled from birth, yet are still cared for by the state from cradle to grave despite the fact that they may never have been able to work a day in their life. Others will work and pay taxes for decades then die before they can retire, having never had a penny back for all their contributions.

The same principle also applies to the wider notion of “society”. The childless still pay for schools. People whose house has never burned down still pay for the fire brigade. Those who’ve never been the victim of a crime still pay for the police.

The welfare state is a COLLECTIVE endeavour, where everyone who’s able to pay in does so, for the benefit of those in need, because ultimately it’s best for all if we don’t leave the poor, the old and the sick to die in the streets. (And, of course, because tomorrow it might be you or someone in your family that needs the help.) It’s not an INDIVIDUAL insurance policy where only the payee can ever get anything out. That’s what insurance companies are for, not the government.

nhs48

Immigrants are only the low-hanging fruit. Labour has said that it wants to make contributions the cornerstone of welfare entitlements in other areas too, such as ending the right of the young to unemployment benefits. It’s part of the party’s wholesale adoption of Conservative rhetoric about “something for nothing”, a phrase Scottish voters tasted rather sooner than the rest of the UK under Johann Lamont’s leadership of the local branch office.

If Labour want to effectively abolish the welfare state in order to compete with the Tories and UKIP for right-wing votes, they’re perfectly entitled to campaign on that platform. But civilised readers may feel that to instead rewrite the most basic and fundamental ideological premise of it, while cynically pretending to be protecting it, is exactly the sort of craven, gutless, unprincipled dog-whistle politics that’s got the party into such an unholy, but richly deserved, electoral mess.

Print Friendly

3 Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. 23 11 14 15:40

    Aneurin Bevan’s grave - Speymouth

  2. 24 11 14 16:00

    Welcome to Britain | FreeScotland

  3. 25 11 14 11:28

    Aneurin Bevan's grave | Politics Scotland | Sc...

120 to “Aneurin Bevan’s grave”

  1. Valkyrie says:

    An utter disgrace, the whole thing. Referendum 2017, anybody?

  2. Willie MacDonald says:

    Reports of an earthquake in Cumnock have been narrowed down to an epicenter six feet below Kier Hardie’s headstone.

  3. Lollysmum says:

    Keir Hardy must be so dizzy with his constant spinning in his grave!

    Basically she is saying -We are red tories & we have no principles. They disgust me. Hell mend them.

  4. Tackety Beets says:

    The UK Labour party have shifted so far to the right they themselves are lost completely .
    How are they going to present a manifesto in May 2015
    They cant even get the basics correct .

  5. Capella says:

    Deppresing. Why is this woman in the Labour Party?

  6. msean says:

    Well said,this is Labour2014.

  7. handclapping says:

    Labour doesn’t listen.

    They tried out something for nothing up here and reported back that nobody complained. If they had listened they would have heard shocked and if they had bothered to ask they would have had to report horrified. They didn’t and now its copy the Tories time, again, at HQ and the branch office is in melt down.

    But Murphy is 100 times worse. He spouted the same pish 100 times to the same 7 accolytes and thought he had told Scotland. If he and SLab had listened to the response his IrnBru itinerary got he would not be putting himself forward for leader nor would he have had any support.

    Labour doesn’t listen.

    They should listen to mine and older generations who still vote. We talk of social security. They talk of benefits.

  8. yesindyref2 says:

    Was it Murphy the other day, or one of the other prospects for Scottish branch office manaager said the same thing, without it being jumped on by the so-called Labour supporting media, that effectively people can only get out what they put in to a welfare system under New Scottish Labour’s plans?

    Sorry to be so vague, the Labour leadership seems to be increasingly irrelevant to me, which is a bit dangerous as they’re still around and we / I shouldn’t get complacent.

    Anyway, at the risk of incurring the Rev’s wrath, I’m sure there’s some relevance to the topic that the pro-indy newspaper The National is being launched tomorrow, it’s a 5 day trial and needs success to keep on going, you can help that success by ordering it from your newsagent, and I scanned a flyer to enable you to do that which should print off on A4 and trim to A5 at:

    http://yesindyref2.wordpress.com/

  9. fred blogger says:

    https://www.latentexistence.me.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/original-explanation-of-NHS.pdf “the new national health service.”
    the system treats one badly regardless if one has paid into the system or not.
    clem atlee stated; dignity NOT charity.
    generational unemployment is a myth, as is benefit tourism.
    common good, common weal.

  10. Clootie says:

    I watched this while screaming at the TV “From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs”.

    The Labour Party have become a shameful disgrace to the memory of those who developed the founding principles of both socialism and the welfare system

    It follow on from the distortion that “Labour are the Party of the WORKERS”

    …If you are still a Labour voter after watching that clip I can only ask WHY?.

  11. Tigerloun says:

    The same former banker, R. Reeve, who stated on appointment to her post that Labour will be tougher than the Tories when it comes to slashing the benefits bill.

  12. Barbara Watson says:

    The Labour Party are in absolute chaos. The right hand doesn’t know what the left hand is doing (pardon the pun).

    The chaos is in their policy, made up on the hoof! I can’t make head nor tail of their policies with the exception of “hate the SNP”.

    I do try to keep up with what is current affairs but this lot make me want to lose the will to live!

  13. David S Briggs says:

    Feel the anger. Could feel the veins in the forehead throbbing.

    Justified .

  14. AuldA says:

    Well done Stu’.
    Plainly agreed.

    Just a wee remark. You take, as an example:

    Some are chronically ill and/or disabled from birth, yet are still cared for by the state from cradle to grave despite the fact that they may never have been able to work a day in their life.

    The fact to be “chronically” ill or disabled doesn’t mean you’re 100% dependent on the state, even if you’ve never worked a day. There are other ways to contribute to general welfare than ‘work’!

  15. Lesley-Anne says:

    Oh great!

    Labour the party OF the people, FOR the people, BY the people speaks out AGAINST the people … AGAIN!

    Anyone who actually believes the lies, deceit and misinformation spewed out on a daily basis by RED Ed, oops sorry I of course mean BLUE Ed, about Labour being the party of the people really need to go visit their doctor, provided their doc is still FREE to visit that is.

    The ONLY people that the RED Tories of Labour are “ahem” fighting for are of course millionaires, Bonkers Bankers and those people with tax avoidance as the central part of their lifestyle!

  16. Frank M says:

    They are destroying themselves without the need of any help. Labour and their branch office are becoming totally offensive with their hypocrisy and disgusting statements.

  17. Geoff Huijer says:

    I can’t stand the (blue) Tories but at least they are (fairly) clear that they are a Party that abhorrs the poor, disabled & infirm.

    I think, however, that I despise Labour (the red Tories)even more (if that is indeed possible) because they constantly pretend to be working on behalf of the vunerable whilst actually trying to shaft them to the hilt in order to implement (blue) Toryesque policies.

    Utter scum.

  18. Flooplepoop says:

    Well said, the more this is made aware to Labour voters, the better. I want to live in a society which caters for the common good and not for the benefit of the Rich and companies.

  19. David Agnew says:

    “The dismal fact is that triangulation is a way of letting your opponent win, whether you retain office, or they boot you out. It is a recipe for an asphyxiating political consensus, for conceding your opponents’ “common sense”, and not for victory on something like your own ideological terms.”

    Not mine but this chap here –

    http://lallandspeatworrier.blogspot.co.uk/2012/10/warning-unsupervised-triangulation-kills.html

    The article pretty much nails it on the head. Labour, thinking that it needs to be more tory than the tories to win, has been caught by the conservative party ideology. The blame for how this started can be laid at the feet of Blair, Brown and Darling. But the continued rightwards lurch that has turned the party of Hardie and Bevan, into a spitting image parody of the tories, can be laid at the feet at the entire labour party itself.

    What they have done is to sacrifice every principle they ever had, their past achievements and the memories of its founding members, to be nothing more than a more rabid version of the party they have vilified for so long.

  20. Taranaich says:

    “What our welfare state was based on was that you pay into the system, you contribute to the system, before you’re able to draw down on benefits.”

    What a completely nonsensical statement. With this state’s unemployment levels, there are a huge number of young people who reach legal adulthood with little prospects of employment. How in God’s name are they supposed to draw on benefits according to this definition, when they cannot pay into the system in the first place!?!

    This is the sort of idiocy which led to Ian Duncan Smith’s ruinous welfare “reform,” which claimed to get people off benefits into jobs that do not exist. It’s bad enough that their idealogy is completely grotesque, but they aren’t even competent enough to make their alternative work the way they claim it would.

  21. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh yes, it was Murphy said “something for something” which kind of misses the whole point of a welfare state.

  22. Grizzle McPuss says:

    Why doesn’t Labour just complete the insult and handcuff Nye Bevan’s skeleton to a lamppost while swigging a few glasses Beaujolais?

  23. Yvonne Maclean says:

    Hi, Ronnie Anderson posting as promised.
    It was great to meet some wingers at the Hydro. The ‘vox populi’ was certainly heard yesterday and will hopefully be heard in May 2015 so that the true foundations of the welfare state can be built on once again.
    Will maybe become a poster as well as a lurker from now on.
    A big thank you to Rev Stu and wingers for your insightful and informative postings, I am now addicted to this site.
    Ps looking forward to a reply!

  24. Meindevon says:

    Missed the programme, but I assume Mr Neil immediately asked her to explain that comment?

    Yeh, right!

  25. steveasaneilean says:

    What shameful utterances from a supposed socialist. Why anyone with even an ounce of social conviction would vote for what British Labour has become baffles me.
    It’s not benefits – it’s welfare. There to enhance the physical, mental and social well-being of those most in need.

  26. ronnie andersonr says:

    Westminster troughfers have they’re bacon saved this week from TV/Press attention.wall to wall Team GB with Louis Hamilton,s win today,arise Sir Louie he,s Prince Harry,s pal dont u know.

  27. Murray McCallum says:

    Rachel McVey-Reeves says you pay in first before getting any payments out, i.e. the government is effectively holding your money for you.

    If that is the way it works then why have the government hold your money in the first place? She is effectively arguing, like many right-wing Tories before her, for the complete withdrawal of the State.

    I find it amusing to see how many intelligent Labour people still push voters for their OneNation austerity and persecution of the vulnerable.

  28. Paula Rose says:

    All a consequence of having “professional” politicians with no experience of the real world.

  29. Valerie says:

    The ultimate betrayal of the people it’s alleged Labour represent. I feel your anger, Rev. Campbell, and my motto is don’t get mad, get even.

    Anger at the attack on the more vulnerable of our society by this disgusting govt. And now the Red Tories is what is fuelling this movement.

    They just don’t get what is happening. So I’m caught up now on our Better Together country, fracking, a new nuclear dump, proposal to ship Scottish water down south via some mega canal, a cover up of a fire and leak at Dounreay, and another announcement of something for nothing culture by Labour.

  30. joe kane says:

    Labour Friend of Israel Reeves is an ex-London banker who has never had a real job outside the City-Westminster bubble.

    Her recent attempt to get racist Daily Mail readers to vote for Labour in the Rochester by-election was vile.

    Labour are to the right of the Tories on welfare and immigration.

  31. Devorgilla says:

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/14bn-plan-to-share-scots-water-with-england-1-3613430

    O/T but anybody seen this? Plans to ‘share’ Scottish water with SE England, and a SG spokesman being quoted on it.

  32. Fiona says:

    @Capella

    She isn’t in the Labour Party: she is in the Nulabour party. They are tories

  33. Dr Jim says:

    I’m reminded of Ruth Davidson’s bid for FM speech when she said “Free stuff’s good but i’m happy to pay for my prescriptions after all the NHS saved my legs” Well Hockey sticks that kinda makes the point you did’nt know you were even making does’nt it? Coz if you had to pay we would be exactly like America would’nt we, and we dont want that do we?…Oh!..wait a minute Labour and Tories Do, i keep forgetting…Silly Me

  34. Jamie Arriere says:

    What is growing abundantly clear here is that no matter how great the need is in the country, no matter how many foodbanks there are, no matter how many are put out of reach of affordable rents, no matter how many pensioners are having to choose whether to heat or eat, these Labour bastards are not going to make the effort to meet these needs.

    They are not going to forego their nuclear weapons, their private finance projects, their grandstanding in foreign wars, close the tax avoidance loops, and risk their own comfortable lifestyles & expenses, and are too busy identifying their scapegoats.

    They are politically & morally bankrupt, and anyone still attached to this pernicious shower needs to give them the last click of the scissors

  35. yesindyref2 says:

    Very random the YES movement and not organised. I just dropped a small pile of The National flyers down the nearest YES shop and they were delighted, on the table and in the window straight away. The YES bar last night were happy to take a pile as well.

    But I think that’s why being a part of YES is so popular, it’s not “following orders”, it’s total randomers deciding randomly on doing something useful – and random.

    NO was very top down, and it’s a wonder it won, last time.

  36. Jim Arnott says:

    I was privelged as a young man to listen to the great man himself, Aneurin Bevan. He will indeed be burlin’ in his grave at the crass stupidity of Rachel Reeves and the rest of her “New Labour” ilk.

  37. Keith Hynd says:

    I’m not surprised by the statement this stupid woman espoused after all 1. she is a member of the red tory party. And 2. Just look at her! take a close look! she is most definitely an Ed Milliband clone!!!

  38. Les Wilson says:

    I spoke to god about Slab/labour, Forgive them father” for they know not what they do” and asked him again to forgive the poor souls.

    I waited his heavenly response and it was swift to come ” Fxxx Off! and it was thunderclap loud!

  39. BrianW says:

    Oh.. so Labours selling it as a ménage now is that it?

    Ahh.. I see what she’s done here. She’s opened her mouth, let words troupe out of their own accord without actually giving the topic any thought what so ever..

    What surprises me though, is that you’d think the inherent values of the Welfare State that Labour espouse should be so ingrained, that slip ups like this just shouldn’t happen.

  40. Tackety Beets says:

    @yesindyref2
    I took the liberty of firing out your link to National Form on my FB and Twitter Accounts.
    I assume you wouldn’t mind .
    As you say , we don’t wait for commands , we just get on with it on our initiative .
    Thanks

    Welcome to all our New Posters .

    I liked the ” Feil Gype ” handle , all part of what makes this site addictive .
    Brilliant !

  41. tombee says:

    @ Rev.
    You have said it all Rev. No further comment required, except, They really have lost the entire plot. The rotting fruit has fallen from tree of enlightenment at Labour HQ.

  42. Bob Mack says:

    Heard the exact same line from a Conservative minister last week. Labour policy is n longer based on principle, but rather on the perceived need of the moment. Their clear line of policy did not even get through to the three stooges interviewed today, who spent most of the time looking at each other before answering a question, in an attempt to make sure they were not differing too much. However I now know what Labour stands for. Self interest in a nutshell.

  43. yesindyref2 says:

    Tackety Beets
    Thanks for that, yes please, everyone welcome to fire it out all over the place! None of my stuff is copyrighted, all is free to use.

    There’s a better page for The National now launched with a link for digital subscriptions, the form looks like it’ll work OK, and seems to have a bit for those who subscribed by text.

    http://thenational.scot/

  44. The above “water story” for those who refuse to give chip wrappers like the Northbriton a hit – https://archive.today/WlNIM.

  45. @Devorgilla

    That water thing is a great idea. Scottish Water is in the hand of the scottish people, it’s not a reserved matter. We could bill the reverse of how the electricity is billed.

  46. Alex Clark says:

    @Yvonne Maclean

    Welcome! was great to meet you and your husband last night, glad to see you have taken the plunge and put up your first post.

    A word of warning though it can become addictive.

    As for Rachael Reeves, her and Jim Murphy could be soul mates.

    This is why, in Scotland at least Labour are haemorrhaging support at a rapid rate, NS’s appeal yesterday at the Hydro to Labour voters to “lend their vote” to the SNP in the GE will reap dividends.

    Any labour supporter with at least a smidgeon of decency knows that this is the only way that Scotland will make progress.

  47. Bob Mack says:

    The last time I heard anything like this was when Scrooge said,” Are there no workhouses”. I better be careful, I may jut have contributed to the Labour Party Manifesto there!! .

  48. Robert Roddick says:

    A civilized state is defined by how it treats the young, the old, the sick and the disadvantaged.

  49. Lollysmum says:

    O/T

    Just spent the last 3 hours or so trying to watch RIC Conference held yesterday. I’m sooooo disappointed in the content on the event page. Coverage begins on the last 10 seconds of Patrick Harvie’s speech, other speakers were good particularly Saffron & Michelle but Patricks contribution was important.

    Next session was Mass Forum 1-bits missing from speeches where it looked as though signals dropped & the film caught up so making nonsense of what was being said as chunks were missed by the viewer. Last speaker was Lesley Riddoch. The filming ended when she was talking about who should be standing for GE15 i.e. way before she was finished & before the actual mass feedback session started.

    I now have to hope that others filmed the speeches & post them to Youtube.

    I don’t want to be overly critical of independencelive.net because they have done some brilliant work but surely an event as big as this conference should have needed a backup camera. Is it lack of resources-money, people, equipment etc & is there any way we can help to improve this for the future? It certainly left me disappointed that important pieces were missing so the viewer doesn’t get the full picture.

    The next film was on a completely different subject but by that time I’d given up.

  50. Billy Mac says:

    And to add to what that silly woman said, we had Jim Murphy claiming he was a socialist later on in the Scottish part of the program.
    Both of them went unquestioned by the interviewers, suprise suprise.

  51. fred blogger says:

    Lollysmum
    seen alan bisset/cat boyd RIC contribution?
    cat was very sharp, and brilliant.

  52. mike says:

    Best post for a while. It sickens me how Labour paint themselves as an alternative to Neo-liberalism. They are so desperate for votes and power they have sold their soul.

  53. ronnie anderson says:

    Westminster troughfers bacon saved thos week by Louis Hamiltons winning F1,its wall to wall TV/Print team GB & no mention of Ruin’d Britania.keep peeling the Onion Rev they’re rings are getting tight’r & theres nae roseie rings fur them,
    alltoghther now ring a ring of posers,the collective sneeze in May & We blaw them away.

  54. Grizzle McPuss says:

    O/T Excuse my manners. Apologies Stu.

    @Yvonne Maclean good to meet you yesterday, glad you took Ronnie’s advice not to lurk anymore.

    @ronnie andersonr. A pleasure to meet you yesterday Sir. You did somewhat confuse my three sons with talk of lurchers & chocolate, so I’ve sent them to WoS back-posts.

    @morag. There is an SNP (Tinto / Clydesdale) meeting tomorrow (Monday) in Biggar @7.00pm

  55. caledonia says:

    Excuse me for being thick but what is the difference between the RIP and the SNP (just the main points will do)

  56. HandandShrimp says:

    With Michael McCann MP tweeting that the RIC convention were Trots I think anything even remotely related to socialism brings a modern Labour MP out in hives.

    We live in strange times.

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    So, views of that page I posted with The National flyer so far, by far most referred from WOS, some from SGP, some from FB:

    Visitors 286

    VIEWS BY COUNTRY (today)

    United Kingdom 260
    United States 5
    Bolivia 3
    Czech Republic 3
    France 3
    Canada 2
    Sweden 2
    Ireland 2
    Hungary 1
    Finland 1
    Portugal 1
    Belgium 1
    Thailand 1

  58. @Lollysmum

    Be thankful that we can watch something outwith the doctoring by the MSM ALAN BISSETT READS THE PEOPLE’S VOW AT RIC CONFERENCE

    Lesley Riddoch: an alternative media? is at 7.30pm tonight.

  59. ScottieDog says:

    Yet, we allow banks to create money from nothing, charge us interest then wreck the economy and expect tax payers to bail them out, giving them bonuses to boot.

  60. Paula Rose says:

    Nope – not trots but the trit trot of unicorns’ hooves.

  61. AuldA says:

    @YesIndyRef2:

    There’s a better page for The National now launched with a link for digital subscriptions, the form looks like it’ll work OK, and seems to have a bit for those who subscribed by text.

    Thanks! I hadn’t been checking since this morning (frankly I didn’t expect the team to work a Sunday). Works fine, I’ve been able to subscribe for the full five issues. Thanks so much also to those who have so kindly proposed to buy it for me.

  62. Lesley-Anne says:

    Sorry if this has been linked to already.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/new-scottish-poll-piles-pressure-on-ed-miliband-1-3613482#.VHIWivkT9Xc.twitter

    Here’s the best bit though. 😛

    The Scottish sample put Mr Miliband on 12 per cent as the best Prime Minister, compared to Mr Cameron at 24 per cent while Labour on 23 per cent was only just ahead of the Tories on 22 per cent and 18 points behind the SNP on 41 per cent. 😀

  63. Alex Clark says:

    @Lollysmum

    Maybe just a little unfair to those doing their best with Independence Live. They are not professionals but learning their trade.

    I can’t remember exactly what their last fundraiser raised but it wouldn’t pay for a week of Jim Murphy’s nor Anas Sarwars “expenses” (£4000/week).

    Funny how many Independence supporters may be rushing to buy the National tomorrow, including me even though it is owned by the establishment and who are obviously are in it for the potential profit it may generate. Yet felt unable to contribute even a couple of quid to our own home grown media.

    One thing I can say for those working tirelessly at Independence Live is that they are definitely NOT in it for the money.

    If the 1.6m who voted Yes gave Indy live their BBC license fee to Independence Live then of course I would expect better, not going to happen anytime soon though, don’t you think?

  64. Helena Brown says:

    Welcome Yvonne and I wish like you I was able to meet fellow wingers but unfortunately the dug won’t let me. We are beginning to resemble the Scottish Government Cabinet. The more women the merrier.

  65. jimnarlene says:

    They really are a sinking ship, without a rudder. The sooner they sink below the waves, the better.

  66. CameronB Brodie says:

    The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism, read by all aspiring English Socialists.

  67. Chic McGregor says:

    Never mind Keir Hardy, Harold MacMillan and just about every other pre Thatcher Tory PM in the 20th C, will be spinning away.

  68. Helena Brown says:

    Why does anyone who wants the Tories vote Labour, they get the incompetent Tories. I hate the Tories so I am beginning to find difficulty in finding a word which quite encompasses the Labour Party. You could imagine Rachel Reeves to be a fifth columnist but they are supposed to keep it low out of sight, she is so out there that she is impossible to miss.

  69. Morag says:

    Hi Yvonne, great to meet you last night and great to see you posting.

    I have a wee apology to make to everyone I was hugging and kissing with at the Counting House. Taranaich was quite right, I was ill. I’ve come down with a nasty bug and been in bed all day. (So much for my special birthday treat of the Hunger Games followed by dinner at the Dakota, that was planned for today.)

    So if anyone develops a nasty cough, a sore throat and a splitting headache, it’s all my fault.

  70. galamcennalath says:

    Well said, Stu. Who ever imagined the day when a Labour politian would need a lecture on what the welfare state is!?

    Just shows the Red Tories are more Tory than Red!

    Perhaps Con and Lab are the Royal Blue Tories and the Sky Blue Tories. Or, is there even that much difference? If that’s the way a shadow Labour minister thinks, then our southern cousins can expect their welfare system to fall apart with all party collusion!

  71. Lesley-Anne says:

    Look out folks if Nigel Dodds gets his way the voting paper in May next year may just have two names on it … YES Alliance … NO Alliance. 😛

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/nigel-dodds-unionist-parties-should-forge-pact-in-scotland-and-northern-i.1416763066?utm_source=www.heraldscotland.com&utm_medium=RSS%20Feed&utm_campaign=Scottish%20News&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

    I wonder if that nice Mr Dodds has thought up a name for his united party in Scotland. 😉

  72. Lollysmum says:

    Alex Clark at 5.42

    Yes I know that which is why I said I didn’t want to be overly critical. I supported the last fundraiser for them & have followed them on most of their events & especially the Catalonia marathon event they broadcast.

    I know they aren’t in it for the money which is why I said is there anything we can help with if it’s a matter of resources. .

    I tried looking at it as a new person would coming to RIC & wanting to know more as I did & not as someone just wanting to have a pop at Delboy and the others. This event has been reported in the national press & anyone searching for coverage of it would have found themselves on IL’s web pages.

    Your response comes across as having a go at me for speaking the truth when really I was just looking for answers to their dilemma yesterday because the answer isn’t always money- it might have been just people on the ground. Clearly I wasn’t supposed to ask-I’ll remember that next time.

  73. Yvonne Maclean says:

    Thanks Alex, Grizzie McPuss, Helena and Morag for responding to my post. Looking forward to contributing to wings posts.

  74. Morag says:

    One thing that really bugs me about all this is that the intention seems to be to make me pay twice.

    Think about it. If you’re one of the people who hasn’t needed to take out of the system, then by the original vision you still get benefit from it. You get the benefit of knowing that your less fortunate fellow citizens are being looked after. Because of this you don’t have to spend your life feeling guilty that the poor and the sick are facing destitution, because your contributions are helping to support them.

    But now what? If the contributions of the well off and the healthy are disappearing into the government’s coffers never to be seen again, supporting these people becomes the responsibility of the very people whose contributions are vanishing. As well as paying in to the system and maybe never taking out, we have to pay in all over again in charitable contributions.

    And then, there’s nobody to say when you’ve contributed your fair share. Someone with modest means and a soft heart may be constantly guilty and constantly giving, while the rich and heartless may give nothing. Or may get sycophantic headlines for a contribution that seems large but is actually peanuts to them.

    I want to pay fair taxes to know that my fellow citizens are being looked after. This government and Labour want to take my money and give me nothing.

  75. liz says:

    My thoughts on the new Independent is that it’s not for the ones who get their info on-line, which I will continue to do but for those who still rely on the MSM/BBC.

    Someone earlier said they would drop them off in old folks homes, which is a good idea.

    I would be up for posting them through doors but I suppose this week I will def buy it so it doesn’t fold.

    Don’t really trust any MSM fully.

  76. T222Deracha says:

    Just cancelled my SNP membership because of the petty and vindictive actions of East Ayrshire Council when collecting unpaid Council Tax. Labour are f***ing useless and sadly the SNP, in cahoots with the Tories are just as heartless as the rest of them! Scotland is well and truly f***ed now that the SNP has shown it is similar in tactics to the other useless political parties. How poorer people would have fared under the SNP in an independent Scotland, if they were treated the same way they treat folk struggling to pay the Council Tax makes my blood run cold. Poor Scotland abused under the Union and mistreated if independent. Sorry, but some people really need to wake up!

  77. Alex Clark says:

    @Lollysmum

    Yes, sorry. I’m sure we are both supportive of what little media we can get via the internet. I watched some of the RIC conference live yesterday before leaving for Glasgow and it was fine.

    The thing for me though is that basically because of the way things are with our mainstream media we rely on people like Kevin and Del, the Rev ect to show us something different that would otherwise likely be unreported.

    I totally agree that if it was just a matter of resources then we should all help as best we can, unfortunately it’s not just that because it relies on mobile networks having sufficient bandwidth in the area they are streaming from. I know from experience that this is not always possible.

    I didn’t mean to come across as griping at you so I hope you accept my apology.

  78. Paula Rose says:

    @ Lollysmum – I read Alex’s comment as agreeing with you and highlighting the funding paradox. Please always comment without worry – we are a community of loving folk (most of the time).

    @ Morag – my delight in seeing you again has strengthened my immune system, get well soon honey.

    In general – please do not confuse Labour voters with the “party”, we have to win them over – they will respond to a true articulation of their core beliefs.

  79. gus1940 says:

    I am having problems with the procedure for taking out a subscription for the Digital Edition of THe National.

    The site accepted my details and subscription for 5 Digital Editions @ £1.50 using my Debit Card.

    However, it then displayed a screen asking me to select what editions I wanted. It showed Edition for 9/11/ 2014 which I obviously didn’t want . I tried to delete that but all that happened was that it selected 9/11 and left me with just 4 subs to go. There seemed to be no way to select my desired dates.

  80. heedtracker says:

    Their giant just round the corner problem, is teamGB is bust. Can they keep psycho borrowing or do they go after the people that can’t say anything but then they blow hundreds of billions on Trident 2 in the third most unequal western state on the planet. Quite an achivement after 70 years Labour right to rule over Scotland. Their zealots won’t got quietly and liggers at the Record, BBC etc will try and terrorise Scots to make them vote Labour, but it’s all over now.

  81. liz says:

    @T222Deracha – could you explain what went on in East Ayrshire?

  82. Bob Mack says:

    @ T222DERECHA,
    FIRST OF ALL I HAVE BEEN WHERE YOU ARE.. Secondly Councils run on a process like Westminster, where there are constant civil servants who follow and apply the rules dispassionately, regardless of who is in power. Sorry for your situation.

  83. morag towndrow says:

    gus1940 same Happened with me , but I just went on to my subscriptions page & there was the record of 5 editions starting tomorrow.

    Prepared to agree on “stupid” as a description, even “ridiculous”, but very uncomfortable with “hateful” even as mockery.

  84. AuldA says:

    @Gus1940:

    Same thing here. Well, I suppose we somehow flubbed it. I somehow guess you’re not able to pick the future releases, but only past or present ones. Let’s wait some hours.

    I agree we wasted one token, but I don’t mind too much, as long as my subscription is registered and I can get the first edition for history! 🙂

  85. Lollysmum says:

    Liz you beat me to it @ 6.37

    I would be surprised if it was true. After all it was SNP (Alex Salmond) who went on the warpath about councils chasing historic Poll Tax debts.

    Isn’t this covered by the money set aside to mitigate bedroom tax etc? I know that both are covered in England by the Discretionary Payments system where its been adopted (only by 54 councils out of 140+). But then what do I know-I could be completely wrong.

  86. Lollysmum says:

    @Heedtracker at 6.36
    Yes quite correct. Govt isn’t collecting enough taxes to cover it’s expenditure & hasn’t for some time which is why Osborne is borrowing more to service UK debts (only we’re not supposed to know that-I found it on RT). Companies & wealthy individuals not paying tax has landed us in this mess & I expect a crash to happen very soon.

  87. Capella says:

    @ Gus1940
    @ AuldA
    I don’t think the first edition is available till tomorrow. Try again on Monday.
    I sometimes buy the Sunday Herald online and once you pay your £1.30 you can select any edition to read because they have an extensive back catalogue. The National isn’t actually out yet but they are probably using the same format and in time you will be able o select an edition.

  88. SquareHaggis says:

    Saved 145.50 on the TV tax today so i’ll be buying 50 copies of the National tomorrow and posting them through the doors in my street. If the result looks favourable i will repeat the process for the rest of the week, So it had better be good.

  89. Lollysmum says:

    @ Alex Clark

    Apology accepted & yes we are both on same side.I just want us to be the best we can be particularly when indy supporting groups are showcasing themselves in the public domain. NO folks are quick enough to criticise without us giving them ammunition. I’m in process of cancelling my TV licence (much to the disgust of my 9 yr old grandson) & IL will get that money.

    Paula Rose-thanks for your post- I did think before I posted that someone might be affronted by my comment however I concluded that we can’t expect others to ‘speak truth to power’ if we can’t do that here. I’m CEO of a charity & if something doesn’t work the solution lies in asking why & then doing what we can to fix it. I don’t play the blame game as there’s nothing to be gained by it. Thanks for the reassurance.

  90. Silverytay says:

    SquareHaggis
    What a great idea of posting them through letter boxes .
    If the National continues and does a good job of promoting independence then it might be a good idea if we all start buying extra during the G.E campaign and post them through peoples letter boxes .

  91. AuldA says:

    @Morag:

    After what you said, I’m rather happy I didn’t come yesturday 🙂 Nevermind, I hope you’ll get rid of that nasty bug of yours quickly. I can hand you a debugger if you want… 😐 (Don’t worry, I’m also coughing like a phthisic).

    I concur with what you say. Care for the poor (though in a well-run state there should not be any poverty), the disabled, the ill, etc. should be covered by the taxes. Charity institutions should be funded by the state, at least up to a sufficient level to insure their correct functioning.

    But everything could be so simplier if we were just responsible enough and just got rid of money…

  92. Ken500 says:

    When ConDems came to power, £600Billion was collected in taxes in the UK. £120Billion was borrowed. – £720Billion.

    Now £490 Billions is raised in taxes in the UK. £110Billion borrowed. – £600Billion.

    Debt repayments are £52Billion.

    If taxes had stayed the same. People on average earning and above paid £20 a week. The deficit would have been paid off. £30Billion+ is lost a year in tax evasion from (foreign) Multinational companies making vast profits.

    Scotland raises more in taxes and spends less (pro rata).

    There are reports Immigrants will not be able to claim benefits for two years, but no one can claim benefits unless they have paid NI for two years? Unless they are sick or disabled.

  93. Anne Lawrie says:

    Silvertay – I have been doing that with the Sunday Herald, but only one extra copy, which I post through the letter box of a random elderly person who may have voted no, thanks to the MSM & BBC. It’s my own little contribution to their education. It also could help the circulation of the Sunday Herald if everyone did it.

  94. Midgehunter says:

    Let’s hope that by 10.00am every single copy of the National has been sold – that’ll give them some food for thought.

    They could increase the run by 10.000 copies each successive day and see where the potential lands, the content had better be good.

  95. Silverytay says:

    Anne Lawrie
    Thats a good idea for the New Year
    If I wanted to do my estate I would need 600 papers but if the National is any good I could afford to buy 2 or 3 extra daily and cover my estate that way before the G.E .

  96. De Valera says:

    Labour now seem to be in agreement with Margaret Thatcher’s view that ” there is no such thing as society”.

  97. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Morag at 6.16

    Exactly. The crackpot notion that those whose taxes provide the funds for the services then don’t get the benefit of those services unless they pay again is uttered regularly by a wide selection of political halfwits from Johann Lamont all the way to Ruth Davidson.(A much shorter journey than might have been imagined).
    Why would you pay your taxes if that was the case?

  98. Morag says:

    That wasn’t the point I was making in my post, Dave. However I’m entirety in agreement with your point as well. It’s the basis of universalism and I’m a huge fan.

  99. McBoxheid says:

    I missed this one till just now, but thank you Reverend for reminding the red tories what the welfare state stands for. I like many jocks served in the british army because there wasn’t any work in the Highlands and in the end I got a medical discharge post Gulf War 1 and am now disabled and unable to work. I get a War Pension, so my ability to live is covered by it at the moment, but only just. It disgusts me to see politicians of any party prepared to drop their principles for their own personal greed. The people that are unable to help the system should be provided for and not left to go begging to food banks to get enough to eat. Not everybody is born healthy or wealthy and I wouldn’t wish ill health on my worst enemy, but I would dearly love to swap places with these red and blue tory bastards that have no respect for their fellow countrymen and see how they like suffering for a change.

  100. cearc says:

    Morag,

    So far that has been the only positive for me not making it to Glasgow this weekend.

    I hope you feel better soon.

  101. Iain Carlton says:

    In Orkney recently I was shown a 4000 year old skull of a severely disabled woman. The fact that she lived to be an adult was proof that our Neolithic ancestors looked after their weakest members. Perhaps Labour would be better reverting to Stone Age principles before they get any worse.

  102. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Yvonne Maclean.

    Did you manage to get to the Counting House last night; perchance under a different nomenclature?

    Never mind, now you’re posting, you should really subscribe to ‘off-topic’ – that’s where the misfits like/and/or Ronnie and Paula Rose hang out.

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/off-topic/

  103. Morag says:

    Thanks! Me too!

    There was Taranaich saying, you don’t sound well, and me saying, it’s just a tickly cough. Except it now feels like bronchitis.

    I hope I didn’t actually give it to anyone else.

  104. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Cough, cough, barf, mucus, retch.

    Yep, I’m working on ‘default’ Morag. No effect from you.

    8=)

  105. Marian says:

    This is what happens when you allow champagne socialists to run the Labour Party.

  106. Macart says:

    Yeah, that’s about right for today’s Westminster mindset.

    Rewrite history to suit your twisted narrative.

    FFS.

  107. Paula Rose says:

    ( is it possible to have more wonderful friends? )

  108. I remember Rachel Reeves from previous post `Keir Hardie`s grave `she said` Labour are not the party of welfare `and `we are going to go further than the government `
    A career politician no soul.

  109. Footsoldier says:

    Did Andrew Neil challenge her comment?

  110. Steph Daly says:

    In that case . . . I tell all my service users tomorrow with physical and learning disabilities, who have no capacity to earn a wage, to empty their pockets, dispense with all their property including their clothes, leave their homes and roam the hinterland and perish, because they have never contributed?

  111. liz says:

    @Lollysmum – it looks as though you and I are still waiting for some details.

  112. Chic McGregor says:

    Same ‘9/11’ experience, re The National as others above.

    Don’t see any link on the Herald site either which I went in desperation.

    Teething probs I hope.

  113. Chic McGregor says:

    @Marian
    Champagne socialists ignore real pain for the people.

  114. Betty Boop says:

    Aah, the heartless Ms Reeves who espouses, not for the first time, what passes for Labour “thought” these days. Are these “politicians” actually ignorant of the purpose of our welfare state or do they simply pander to whatever elitist policy might bring them power? They obviously feel secure that votes from “middle England” are the way to power. No matter, time to sink them without trace.

    @ Yvonne McLean

    Welcome. Glad to see that you have gotten around to posting here. No pressure mind 🙂 Not too difficult really once you take the plunge! Sat was a good night amidst our Wings friends.

    @ Morag, sorry to hear that you are down with some lurgy. Had I known, I may have brought a face mask (might not be a bad idea!) 🙂 – Worry not, although I spent a deal of time in your company, my rum will have afforded me immunity. Hope you are well soon. BTW, love that hat, very Bohemian.

    @ Alex Clark, 6:23pm, 23/11/14

    Nice recovery, Alex, gentleman that you are! Re our conversation on Sat night, time-out or do as you are doing. No worries 🙂

  115. farrochie says:

    This thread continues the theme:

    Labour will say anything, so desperate are they for every vote. Middle England is their target.

  116. Gary says:

    They retain only the name.

  117. gus1940 says:

    I have now downloaded and printed the first edition of The National and am impressed but with a few reservations tempered with the fact that if they decide to go ahead and make it permanent after the initial 5 editions these may be taken care of without too much prompting.

    The ‘Print All Pages’ option omitted to print the last 3 pages and I had to print these individually.

    While I agree that the facsimile on-line idea is good I would also like to see something along the same lines as the on-line Herald with the facility to make Comments.

    Unfortunately, if it is the intention to hit The Record’s circulation it will be an unfortunate necessity to include the same sort of Old Firm Crap that sells The Record to so many people.

    They should encourage readers to submit articles for possible publication or to suggest topics to be covered.

    Presumably they will have access to all of Newsquests copy of National and Foreign News, Features and Sport so their editorial effort should concentrate on selection from that lot plus primarily Scottish News with the slant being pro- Independence.

    I don’t know what the views are of Rev Stu, Derek B, Craig Murray and those behind Bella C., Newsnet etc. plus Newsquest themselves but would it not be an idea to agree to publish in print and on-line selective articles from the on-line media sites either in full with clickable links throught to the reader comments thereon or to have a section containing an index of articles on the on-line sites with clickable links to them.

    Finally, my impression is that the paper’s aim is to attract the sort of people who read The Herald, Scotsman, Courier & P&J without the sort of FootBall Crap, Soap and Celeb Nonsense and the Titallating Stuff (which has filled the Record increasingly since 18/9 in their desperation) they will not be able to attract readers from that rag and the other Red Tops.

    I can’t help thinking that what we need is 2 new papers one to combat the Heavies and another to take on The Red Tops.

    Meanwhile congrats to The National with the hope that it goes beyond 5 editions all the way through to Indpendence and Beyond.

  118. Jamie says:

    I was so angry I sent her an email mentioning the five Giants and the welfare state , maybe just maybe it might spark a wee memory in her. I won’t hold my breath. What a joke of a labour MP she is. I don’t understand why labour still say they are a socialist party , they are abandoning everything l old labour stood for dat after day. Very sad.

  119. IAB says:

    This needs to be publicised far and wide. The Labour Party we supported is long gone.



Comment - new users please read this page first for commenting rules. HTML tags like <i> and <b> are permitted. Use the live preview box. Include paragraph breaks or I WILL KILL YOU WITH HAMMERS.




↑ Top