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Wings Over Scotland

Why Scotland can’t afford a No

Posted on May 08, 2014 by

We can do this in one picture, folks. Remember barely a fortnight ago, when the Tories were wailing about how there wasn’t enough immigration into Scotland to sustain its economy in the coming decades? Here’s a little snippet of data from a Survation poll for the Daily Mirror earlier this week.


Well, there’s a dilemma, eh? Scotland need more immigrants, but the rest of the UK is absolutely desperate to have fewer – so much so that it’s 67% more important than the cost of living, twice as important as the state of the economy, over three times as important as unemployment or debt, and FIVE times as important as the NHS.

Immigration policy is reserved to Westminster. Which way do you see that going?

If Scotland stays in the UK, it will be starved of the human resources it needs to support its economy. It won’t be able to raise enough taxation to pay for public services (especially as Labour plans to pile expensive, pointless bureaucracy on top of the tax system if it wins in 2015).

And as nobody will get elected on a platform of tax increases, that means EVEN MORE austerity on top of what’s coming to the rest of the UK. Goodbye prescriptions, goodbye free tuition, goodbye bus passes for old folk, goodbye council tax freeze.

We normally put funny stuff up at this time of night. But it’s been a pretty angry day today, and we weren’t really in the mood. The UK electorate is demanding that the Westminster government implements a policy that will cripple Scotland’s economy for a generation. Which party do you think is going to stand up to them?

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    155 to “Why Scotland can’t afford a No”

    1. call me dave says:

      I’m genuinely surprised at that statistic 25%.

    2. Calum Craig says:

      Completely agree with the caption for the picture. I’ve mentioned it before but being married to a “foreigner” makes me very aware of this kind of issue. The UK is slipping ever rightward driven by the UKIP loonies and a xenophobic press.

    3. Taranaich says:

      You’d think the snarky fowk of Britannia would just say “well if those Jocks want immigrants, why don’t we just send our surplus up there?”

    4. gordy201 says:

      The biggest worry of a no vote is what is going to happen to the UK when we have a new Tory UKIP coalition because labour are unelectable with Miliband in charge and the Lib Dems are in all honesty finished as a serious party in the UK after getting into bed with the Tory party. you also have the planed in out vote on europe then you have Harriet Harman planning to repeal the Human rights act and thats before you have UKIP driving the already right wing tories further and further right a no vote is going to leave Scotland in the hands of power mad xenophobic little englanders and if we do get independence then I also feel sorry for the rUK who will have to live with whats coming.

    5. Drew says:

      Surprised to say the least. Yet BBC give Farage another outing on QT tonight.

    6. Murray McCallum says:

      The scale of those who are concerned with the level of immigration will ring a bell with certain Labour politicians that are always talking about “foreigners” and “foreign” in a negative way.

    7. Greannach says:

      It’s strange that Inequality and Fairness didn’t feature among the priorities. Isn’t it?

    8. Edmund says:

      I’m not surprised at the 25% at all. If you live in the overcrowded south-east, with an NHS that’s being slowly crippled, unmantained privatised water meaning yearly floods followed by hose-pipe bans, no social housing and the prospect of having to find quarter of a million for a starter flat, then it seems like all these problems would be solved if only there were fewer people clogging up the place.

      From this vantage point, I can very much understand the rise of UKIP. Looking around, it seems like we can’t afford to provide for the people we have already – never mind more incomers.

      Of course the real root of all these issues is Westminster mismanagement and an industrial policy which puts all investment (and therefore most of the jobs) inside the M25. If politicians worried about providing proper services and improving the living standards of ordinary people then we’d be able to be more welcoming.

      As it is, don’t be surprised if UKIP come first in this month’s elections.

    9. Croompenstein says:

      Stuart – Goodbye ‘free’ prescriptions 🙂

    10. heedtracker says:

      Its the fourth most unequal country in the world with extraordinary pressure on collapsing public finances and wildly spendthrift Westminster. All Farage has to do is blame the foreigner.

    11. Piemonteis says:

      Talking of polls, there was one out the other day of young people between 17 and 21 across the UK. What stood out was how politicised Scottish young people seem to be compared to the other “regions” of the UK.

      There were far less “don’t knows” and “would not votes”, and in the equivalent question to the one the Rev looked at above, much less people saw immigration as problem for the country and for them personally than in England and Wales.

      Also of interest is the question on who should lead the country. Hint: Scotland’s answer varies wildly from the other parts. The debt question is also telling.

    12. Alba4Eva says:

      Scotland has to stop feeling responsible for what England does.

      Its’ like we are the parent of an out of control kid, who is on a mission to feck its life up.

      …We have tried… We honestly have, but it’s looking like time to just let the kid make its’ own mistakes and maybe… just hopefully, maybe, learn from them.

      …we just can’t be responsible for these mistakes any more. Enough.

    13. kendomacaroonbar says:

      Labour PPB on Stv Scotland tonight

    14. Croompenstein says:

      If we win the election I’ll give every man, woman and child a thoosan pound each to spend on whatever you want, I’ll also hand out free chocolate and ban VAT – See, it’s easy to make promises when you haven’t a slim panatella chance of winning said election! Come on STV!!

    15. Jim Bo says:

      I feel your anger Rev. This is the issue which first convinced me last year that we need a Yes vote. My non EU wife and baby are currently prevented from living with me, a Scot, in Scotland, due to the fact that I don’t meet the Government’s arbitrary minimum income threshold.

      There are thousands of others like us, but only a Yes vote will bring about the desired change of policy. I can’t stand to think of the alternatives!

    16. Greannach says:

      Piemontis – As political colossus Johann Lamont would say, ‘I’m astonished’. I hope old people like me (over 40) will stop saying young people are switched off, in this country at least. I’d be interested to see results for Wales disaggregated from England’s Midlands.

    17. Democracy Reborn says:

      Reminds me of Thatcher’s infamous 1978 interview : the fear of “being swamped by people with a different culture”. The circle of life…
      One must reasonably assume that some of the respondents who say that immigration is the most important issue are ‘working class’ Labour voters. You know, the ones that Scottish Labour tell us we can’t leave to the mercy of the Tories.

    18. Lewy Tee Bee says:

      @Piemonties, Don’t know if that survey has been discussed here yet but it’s extremely interesting how the young people have answered the questions (those from Scotland), I thought all the 16-18 year olds were Alixsammin hating Britnats! 😉

    19. Ken500 says:

      Turkey’s voting for Christmas

      The right wing Press and the lunatics are running the asylum

      Run for your life. The English working class voted for Thatcher. The class system.

    20. hetty says:

      Aside from the fact that people in this poll seem to have their priorities all twisted round the wrong way, there are no questions about whether people want change in how their rich bully boys admin actually manage things. The mismanagement of the economy is criminal and it aint the ordinary man and woman in the street creating the mayhem. Such deliberate manipulation of the people, and utter dysfunction by uk govenment is staggering, or even, astonishing! Argghhhh!

      I seriously hope it is a YES vote, for all of our sakes.

    21. Ken500 says:

      UKIP on 18% down 2 points – phew

    22. Sinky says:

      Did anyone go to this evening’s Alistair Darling / Jim Eadie referendum debate in Edinburgh? how did t go?

    23. Calum Craig says:

      @Jim Bo,

      You have my sympathy- we moved to the UK together late 2009 but doing that is now impossible thanks to changes in immigration policy.

      Possibly my biggest “pet” hate about the whole thing is the cost of a UK visa- a grand for my wife’s initial two year one then another grand to get permanent residence. The only rationale I can think of this (as my 3 year Japanese visas cost about 40 quid) is to keep skint foreigners out.

      What a lovely country we live in…

    24. Ken500 says:

      Daily Mirror readership falling to under 1million.

    25. Alba4eva says:

      Jim Bo… I have come across such incidences in my own experiences. In my humble opinion, it is utterly unacceptable that any single family (ie. mum, dad and children) are kept separate on this planet because of nothing more than other men claiming false rights to land.

      If nothing, for the children.

    26. caz-m says:

      STV couldn’t have read my very strongly worded email yet about their bias news bulletin at 6pm.

      Bernard Ponsonby stood as a Lib/Dem in a Govan by-election a few years ago, so we know were he stands in the Independence debate.

      I didn’t hear what was said tonight.

      Was it more Jam Tomorrow bullshit from Ed?

    27. Flower of Scotland says:

      Who reads the Daily Mirror these days? I don’t believe that poll. The paper has skewed it!

      After a day listening to Lamont, Davidson, and Rennie, I just want out of this awful Union!

      QT on now! Farage! He gets all the publicity in England ! They couldn’t give a dam about Scotland!

    28. Paula Rose says:

      Lots of lovely boys and girls in our new even more beautiful Scotland, she will remember us forever.

    29. Ken McIntosh says:

      Westminster has deprived this Scot of my EU human rights. My wife of 25 years and mother of our British citizen son is not permitted, as a Commonwealth citizen, to live with me in our home in West Lothian. We’ve never been apart for more than a couple of weeks before these hateful rules were imposed. She is only allowed to be here for 6 months in any year. We cannot be together this year till July. I’m voting YES, and when the Yes result is achieved, she’ll stay on here because, after September, no-one from the rUK Border Police would dare come to my home to throw her out of Scotland. Voting yes means, amongst the other thousands of reasons for Independence, allowing expat Scots who have made the (ghastly) error of falling in love with a non EU national to return with their families to this wonderful country and remake their lives here. A yes vote removes the Westminster Xenophobes power over us all.

    30. rab_the_doubter says:

      Has anyone seen the Britain First FB page. Looks like theyre setting up a ‘protection force’ for Farage. And with that lovable lack of self awareness which idiots like them have they are all wearing black.

    31. heedtracker says:

      Just caught end of newsnicht with Brewer and one more Spectator ligger Massie jnr. says Scotland would vote UKIP but we have the SNP instead. Does teamGB far right ever look at what’s actually going on in Scotland eg. SNP routinely attacked by UKIP etc for immigration policy and Scotland remaining in the EU, even after England leaves.

    32. Ken McIntosh says:

      @Jim Bo, @ Calum Craig

      My sympathies as well, English Tests required to be run by the British Council, A private Contractor being used instead of UK embassies handling the applications, and the time works out at 5.5 months for it to be approved, and you have to be outside the UK to apply! I reckon we spent some £10,000 applying, travelling and living in rented accommodation for some 5 months.

      He’ll mend the Home Office!

    33. Greannach says:

      OT but NOB Orders have changed their website. Now justifying their existence. Must be as a result of pressure from their grassroots members. They still seem to be NOBs. Isn’t that strange?

    34. Peter Macbeastie says:

      Rab_the_doubter; I have never had the misfortune nor the inclination to see that page, but a friend who is normally of sound mind has been sharing pictures from it. You know the type of picture; the ‘share if you’re against whatever nasty thing we’re trying to make you guilty about if you don’t share, you horrible person’ type of pictures.

      So when someone else posted the piece from their page you mentioned I pointedly shared that and tagged the person in question pointing out, for around the tenth time, that Britain First are a bunch of far right fuckwits and the only reason they were posting the guilt trip pictures was to gain exposure.

      Not a dicky bird out that person relating to the BF fuckwits since. Sometimes pointing it out means less than showing someone exactly what it is you have a problem with.

    35. Ananurhing says:

      Does anyone else think Alex Massie could be Alasdair Gray’s love child?

    36. Anne Lawrie says:

      The protection force for Nigel Farage from Britain First which will be saving him tomorrow from us unruly and unwelcoming scots, are even boasting of having armoured vehicles. I wonder if they will be allowed to use these in Edinburgh. It’s supposed to be a silent ‘backs turned’ protest against him. We’ll see…

      Answering another question, I was at the Darling / Eadie debate. No cameras except college students, as part of their course, but nothing really of value or note, except some heckling for Alisdair. Same old, same old – play some old tapes of Alisdair and you’ll get the gist. Even I know his scripts off by heart now!

    37. JWil says:

      Just watched Question Time. Nigel Farage really has got the backs up of the three main parties. Their people on the panel would hardly let him be heard, but in spite of it he was getting big applause from the audience.

      I only heard one person getting close to saying that the reason that people are not being deflected from voting for Farage, irrespective of the dirt digging on him, is that the main parties are basically corrupt and have already proved it.

      It’s exactly the same kind of treatment that Alex Salmond gets from the unionists.

    38. caz-m says:

      They kept this quite.

      More powers for all UK cities. Meeting held in Glasgow today at the invitation of Glasgow City Council.

    39. Greannach says:


      I remember when Bernard Ponsonby stood for the Liberals. The night after, in Bennets in Glasgow, Bernard was there and took a lot of banter from the lads who were mainly SNP. He took it all in good part and is a good guy. It’s the editors, not the newsreaders or reporters who decide the agenda. Lay off the likes of Jackie Bird – she can read a Teleprompter and that’s her skill, maybe her only one. What Bernard took as a banter is now defined as abuse or monstering by unionists, the wee delicate souls.

      Next instalment – car – Lang Stracht, Aberdeenn

    40. Jim Bo says:

      @Calum Craig
      Yes, sounds like you were “lucky” to get in before the rules were changed 2 years ago. The other reason other than money is so that they can appease the masses by trying to show them a reduction of immigrants. Because of EU free movement, the Government go after those who they can exert control over; e.g those with non EU spouses. I also have a Japanese residence btw!

      Not to mention a breach of the European convention on human rights which a certain Ms May would like to remove us from!

    41. Truth says:

      @Jim Bo

      There is a massive loophole for you to exploit.

      It is called the Surinder Singh Route. Please read as much as you can about it and see if it is for you.

      You may wish to start with the following link which provides an excellent overview:

      I had it in mind in case we had any difficulties, but fortunately my wife and I are through it all and out the other end now. You have my sympathy.

      I’ll leave you with one final thought (once you’ve read the link): Isn’t it great that Rep Ireland speaks English 😉

    42. Taranaich says:

      Scotland has not had the levels of immigration some parts of England have, where the levels of it have put a real strain on public services and local people are passed over for jobs because employers regard them as idle loafers and prefer easy-to-exploit newcomers who don’t know about the minimum wage and expect to work long hours.
      If iScotland does allow large scale immigration of unskilled as well as skilled and this results in hundreds of thousands arriving in a short space of time, then the attitude of the people already here will change sharpish.

      These problem are not the result of large scale immigration, they’re the result of deliberate Westminster policy.

      There’s a strain on public services because the government prefers to prop up the banks and feed the Trident monster rather than boost the NHS, keep fire stations open, or prevent catastrophic floods from happening.

      Local people are passed over for jobs because there is a massive underemployment problem relative to the country’s population, and the jobs that do exist are zero-hour contracts or below a bearable living wage – and, as you say, migrants are easier to exploit.

      And there are massive concentrations of migrant populations in the south-east because that’s where Westminster’s doing the most development & requires the most cheap labour. They don’t speak English because Westminster has destroyed the social programmes which facilitate integration and familiarisation; they live in what amount to ghettos, because they don’t feel safe in a country which has Go Home posters everywhere.

      Unlike Westminster, the Scottish government aren’t stupid, or reckless, or outright immoral enough to do what Westminster’s immigration has done to the people of England – migrants and natives alike.

    43. Col says:

      This dawned on me a good while ago. Thank god our media will give it the due attention needed. Cough. This is of huge significance in this debate.
      There was blood in that cough by the way!
      Scotland is screwed if we vote No and i`m sad to say but i`m young and will probably seek better opportunities elsewhere. We really do have one chance at this!

    44. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Smokeball (11.58) –

      Are you familiar with the terms ‘socialism’ and ‘capitalism’?

      Do you know – even roughly – what each means?

      If you don’t? please do yourself a favour – read stuff.

      If you do? Fuck off.

    45. Breastplate says:

      Is it possible Nigel Farage has been on Question Time more than David Dimbleby now?

    46. Democracy Reborn says:

      @ Hugh wallace

      Hugh, just read the Independent article. Apparently, the No side think Fife could be crucial to the result & Gordo’s their “star striker”!

    47. Roger Mexico says:

      Smokeball says:

      Edmund has a point, if you are living in an already crowded part of the UK, you don’t want more arrivals
      I feel that Scots are a wee bit smug on this subject “Look at these nasty xenophobic English, voting UKIP and moaning aboout immigrants. Bunch of racists they are. Not like us Scots, we love everybody and everybody will be welcome in the new Scotland, because we’re not racist like those nasty English”

      Well we should be able judge that by looking at Survation’s data and seeing what different areas of Britain thought was “the most important issue facing the UK today”.

      And we can indeed see that “Too much immigration” is indeed the most popular choice generally with 25%. Whereas in Scotland they picked, er, “Too much immigration”. With 27%.

      (The area most prone to immigration, London, actually had one of the lower scores for this with 17%).

      Now these subsamples are pretty small and not properly balanced and they certainly don’t prove that Scots are more anti-immigration than the English. But they certainly don’t give any grounds for smugness about Scottish virtue either.

      It’s also interesting just how much this is a class/employment issue. The ‘lower’ your socio-economic group, the more likely you are to give immigration as the thing that troubles you most. (Only 15% for AB, 32% for DE). The reason is presumably that the more professional, highly paid jobs are the more mobile and so most likely to benefit from the mobility of labour; unskilled workers are hardest hit by being undercut by cheap imported workers.

    48. Truth says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Come on Ian, play nice. He didn’t say anything so bad.

      I’ve always felt quite proud that Scotland’s minorities speak in Scottish accents. That in itself is an indication of integration. It is also a testament to their willingness to participate and our willingness to accept them. It has in no small part been helped by the relatively low level of immigration.

      Having worked for the last three year in Birmingham (though now back in Scotland), I have seen how a large city with a wide and varied ethnic mix has integration problems. The specific problem being that no matter where you are from or what culture you belong to, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of others of your culture with whom you can interact.

      This leads to many not even learning any English, never mind adopting a local accent.

      When I returned to Scotland, I was struck by how “white” it was. On topic I am not surprised at all by the 25% figure given. It was all anyone went on about down south. And here’s the thing that may shock you, just as many of Indian/Pakistani heritage would bang on about it as well.

    49. charlie says:

      Daily Mirror not mentioned wages, bankers, fear of unemployment, zero contracts, pretty much etc. Let’s hear for the opposition to this govt’s policies…

    50. charlie says:

      Daily Mirror not mentioned wages, bankers, fear of unemployment, zero contracts, pretty much etc. Let’s hear it for the opposition to this govt’s policies…

    51. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @’Roger Mexico’ & ‘Truth’ –

      If the Survation poll (sponsored by the Daily Mirror) had listed:

      ‘Whitehall/Westminster/The ‘City” as a ‘factor’, or listed them separately, that wouldn’t have altered the figures?

      You pair are having a laugh.

      And ‘Truth’? –

      ‘That in itself is an indication of integration. It is also a testament to their willingness to participate and our willingness to accept them.’

      Would you like to elaborate on that?

    52. Truth says:

      I did hesitate once I wrote that sentence, as it could be misconstrued as you have perhaps tried to do with your emphasis.

      In the context of where I said it I think it makes perfect sense. Taken out of context and with certain words emphasised I think it can take on a new meaning.

      So would you care to elaborate on why you have taken it out of context and emphasised certain words?

    53. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Truth –

      If you ‘would care’ to turn up in Dundee tomorrow evening (Jolly’s, Broughty Ferry, anytime between 7-9.30 or so) I’d be more than happy to deconstruct your racist shite one syllable at a time. (In private, of course.)

    54. Horseboy says:

      Just found this:
      Pro-Scottish Independence Online Radio Station,


      OnAir 24/7 broadcasting now on a Auto DJ 3hour LOOP, and LIVE during office hours with Live Chat Box!!live/c1em5

    55. Truth says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I’m very disappointed. You are seeing something that is not there.

      I wasn’t actually aware that this table was provided for respondents to choose from and genuinely believed it was what people volunteered. So I do tend to agree that had bankers bonuses etc been on the provided list then of course the numbers would be different. (I’m not in the habit of clicking Daily Mirror links even if they are archived – but I should have read more closely before venturing into the debate)

      It’s interesting that the theme of the last few days has been the smear politics of the no campaign.

      What is sad is that instead of explaining why you did what you did, you have “played the man” as Stu would say and resorted to smears.

      I doubt it will impress don’t knows visiting, and like I say I am disappointed as I thought highly of you.

      As for your generous invitation I’ll have to decline. I’ve got better things to be doing like spending time with my (non-European) wife and our kid.

    56. Truth says:


      There’s also

      I used to listen to them on the radio app on my old Nokia, but it doesn’t show up on this new Android thingy.

    57. Horseboy says:


      Thanks superb.

      Didn’t know of “YesOnAir” or “IndyScotRadio”.

      In Aberdeen the YES scene is too quiet.

      Gonna try and get these two radio station names out there, on Aberdeen local radio stations.

      Trying to get the Youth vote informed.

      IndyScotRadio is broadcasting from Glasgow, for all Scotland.

      I’m trying to drum up a noise here in Aberdeen!

    58. pmcrek says:

      So basically in 100 years time Scotland will not be viable as anything other than a retirement village for the metropolitan left in London.

      They still wont talk to the few remaining working class locals though…

    59. Ken500 says:

      Faradge is a charlatan and a liar, an immigrant family that has been milking the EU and public funds for years. A crook basically. Immigration in Scotland is approx the same as the rest of the UK. 10%

      The immigrant issue is a ploy by the right wing press and charlatans like Fradge to keep on milking a system from which they have benefitted for years, including Scotlands revenues for years. it’s a disgace and is not the reason for the unemployment figures in the UK. London S/E supports EU membership. The disgrace is Farage (an immigrant family) uses and abuses the immigration issue in this way. Fradge is a crook. The UK is one of the most difficult countries to settle in the world. Westminster foreign policy destabilises and causes poverty in the rest of the world. The British Empire was one reason people came here just as the British went all over the globe and still do. The Oil industry depends on immigration, along with many other industries. The hysteria over immigration is a red herring. A total distraction to the (foreign) multinationals paying no taxes in Britain. That is what is damaging British industry and causing unemployment etc.

      The lunatics are running the asylum. Farage is a danger to a stable society.

    60. Ken500 says:

      Is Fradge a tax exile?

    61. CameronB says:

      As far as I’m concerned racism is simply economics in technicolor. Unless Scotland and Scots are unaffected by economics, Scots are as prone to racist tendencies as anyone else. Discriminating against colour is no different to discriminating against the poor, apart from the former having had several centuries of broad church support. Capitalism doesn’t really work without other-ing.

    62. heedtracker says:

      Con/Dem Britain good, Scotland bad. I love the smell of right wing lies in the morning. No doubt BBC in Scotland morning news will do everything it can to explain why Scotland in the EU is “difficult if not impossible” says Barroso on the Andrew Marr show and so on. Isn’t Friday BetterTogether Jim Naughty day at Pacific Quay? Jim’ll fix it.

    63. manandboy says:

      Apologies for being off topic, but in response to the Weirs,
      The pro-UK Better Together campaign said “everybody should feel free to express their view without fear of abuse”.

      That’ll bring and end to the No Campaign’s slurry spreading then.

      As if.

    64. fergie35 says:

      I’ve heard people complain about the immigrants, and Eastern Europeans, so they will vote No never quite figured out why this would make them a unionist, as England has far more immigration. The Eastern Europeans do the jobs that some people, who call themselves ‘working class’, would refuse to do, which leads me to think they are not working class. I couldnae give a monkeys what class or race anyone is, so long as they work to contribute if posssible. I think the Tabloids stir it up with stories that lead people to hate certain groups.

    65. fergie35 says:

      I like the message that appears when your mouse hovvers over the 25%

    66. CameronB says:

      It is certainly an opinion. but is it political?

    67. Mike says:

      I only see evidence of how easily it is to manipulate the perceptions of massive swathes of people by media and constant focused dialogue.

    68. john king says:

      What’s happening to the posts?

    69. Arabs for Independence says:

      o/t what a dreadful,one-sided, unchallenged, sycophantic interview on GMS at 07:40.

      The impartial Admiral The Honourable Alan William John West, Baron West of Spithead GCB DSC PC and former First Sea Lord and former security advisor to Gordon Brown talked uninterrupted for more than 10 minutes with the ever grovelling James Naughtie.

    70. galamcennalath says:

      Scotland can’t afford a NO for many reasons.

      “the UK’s nuclear deterrent would have to stay on the Clyde until at least 2026.” ….. Not the reasonable few years suggested by the SNP.

      Personally, I would say ‘get them out by Independence Day.’

      Obviously there will be a lot of interconnected negotiations prior to formal Independence, and allowing a few years to relocate the WMDs could be a valuable ‘give’ in negotiations. However the arrogance of Westminster, demanding at least 10 years!

      If the negotiations don’t go smoothly …. Send them packing within months!

    71. Ken500 says:

      Hammond is a liar

      He also claimed it would take three years and cost £27Billion.

    72. heraldnomore says:

      And NHS Waiting Times get the Newsnet treatment that other journalists couldn’t, or wouldn’t do.

    73. Aikenheed says:

      Gala & Ken
      This’ll be their opening gambit in the negotiations then?
      That’s the negotiations they are not planning for of course……..

    74. Graeme Doig says:

      Haley and James show on GMS. My blood pressure really suffering. Not sure i’m going to survive to see our victory

    75. fergie35 says:

      @galamcennalath says:
      (Scotland can’t afford a NO for many reasons.

      “the UK’s nuclear deterrent would have to stay on the Clyde until at least 2026.” ….. Not the reasonable few years suggested by the SNP.

      Personally, I would say ‘get them out by Independence Day.’)

      Couldnt agree more with you. It makes me uneasy, for my children’s sake, having these weapons of mass murder in our back yard.
      Do they have a plan B? Their arrogance indicates they dont.

    76. CameronB says:

      CAUTION: Chatham House (formerly the Royal Institute of International Affairs), is not an impartial source.

      Asia’s Oil Supply: Risks and Pragmatic Remedies.
      (currently off-line for site maintenance)

      Dire strait, why Asia must prepare for an oil shock

    77. heedtracker says:

      Now that Lord Patten’s gone from BBC £145k per year director general thing, its going to be interesting to see if Farage is on telly as much as he is now. Will the next DG be so far right and so hot for UKIP’s no more Jonny foreigner in teamGB, we’ll actually and probably not even notice the difference.

    78. scottish_skier says:

      “Now these subsamples are pretty small and not properly balanced and they certainly don’t prove that Scots are more anti-immigration than the English. But they certainly don’t give any grounds for smugness about Scottish virtue either.”

      I might also add the poll asked about the ‘UK’ rather than Scotland. At the moment we constantly hear on the UK [largely English] news how many believe it [England/the rUK] has an immigration problem and UKIP are going to do well as a result. Maybe it [England/the rUK] does have a problem? How are Scots supposed to know otherwise unless they travel to England frequently which the vast majority do not?

      A Scotland-wide poll asking clearly about Scotland would I imagine not be anti-immigration free. From voting patterns however, we’d expect this less of a concern than the rUK though.

      At the 2010 election, under FPTP (so small parties lose shares to tactical voting), UKIP + BNP got 5.6% UK-wide. In Scotland, it was 1.3% In 2011, under a PR-type system, this was 1.7%.

      UKIP are polling up to ~30% UK wide for the EU. In Scotland, the average of Scottish polls since Xmas is 8% (rather limited here and 3/4 are one pollster). These are comparative proportions to past election results; the anti-immigration parties getting ~3.7* more support UK-wide compared to Scotland.

    79. CameronB says:

      Not having read the Chatham House publication, I don’t know if it acknowledges efforts Iran is making towards boosting world peace and business.

    80. Jim Thomson says:


      Bear in mind that the new DG has to be approved by some Westminster committee or other. Curb your enthusiam 🙁

    81. CameronB says:

      Chatham House now on-line.

      This paper identifies priorities for policies to mitigate these uncertainties. The supply risk for liquefied natural gas (LNG) is different from the oil supply risk for Asia and is touched on only briefly in this paper.

      This paper identifies five priorities in the development of policies to mitigate these uncertainties:

      Establishing a process involving the IEA, China and India to facilitate a very rapid and convincing announcement of a coherent response to any major disruption in Middle East oil supplies;

      Further developing schemes by which exporting national oil companies (NOCs) hold stocks in importing countries;

      Clarifying the policies of crude and oil-product exporters for allocating supplies between domestic consumption, exports and bunkers when those supplies are curtailed by disruption, especially in Asian product-exporting countries;

      Developing mechanisms to target a rapid release of emergency stocks to companies affected by force majeure disruptions; and

      Promoting government and industry cooperation at the national level to ensure continuity of supply to consumers in the event of disruption.

    82. heedtracker says:

      @Jim Thomson, its interesting to speculate how a £4 billion per year outfit like the BBC works though, with producers phones going and its the DG, he wants Farage on Question Time for the next 52 weeks, Greens are ok, no jocks, f the welsh, keep up smearing Salmond and get Naughty up there to Pacific Quay and sort out the sweaties, etc.

    83. Jim Thomson says:

      Listened to the Naughtie v Angus Robertson “interview” at around 8:15. Naughtie pushing for Angus to confirm that we had no problem with nuclear weapons “in our waters” after Angus clearly stated the Scottish waters had an element of international waters applicable to them under maritime law. Naughtie obviously didn’t want to acknowledge that and wanted a soundbite for use later.

      Angus, however, missed an opportunity to remind Naughtie that we, in Scotland, also pay a huge sum out of our revenues to host a nuclear weapons system that we don’t want, or need. Naughtie kept pushing the line “why would the rest of the UK tolerate having to pay for relocation that they didn’t want?” The absolute irony was completely ignored.

      I also have a major problem (sorry, OCD/hobby-horse time) with Naughtie’s use of the word “were” in a singular context. For goodness sake, the word “was” IS available for use. [takes deep breath … and, relax]

    84. Chris Cairns says:

      Completely O/T but I thought I’d just mention The Herald has actually printed one of my letters! Naw, seriously – first time in about two years. Maybe I shouldn’t write in green ink more often …

    85. caz-m says:

      “Lay off the likes of Jackie Bird”

      You have got to be havin a laugh, this is tongue-in cheek, surely Greannach.

      I don’t know who will be choosing the broadcasting team for SBC, but the present BBC Scotland team must be barred from ANY job on SBC.

      I have heard SBC would buy out the contracts from the BBC for the technical staff at Pacific Quay, which is fair enough.

      But if Burd, Frazer, Campbell, Kaye, Taylor, Bradford and all the rest of them get a job at Pacific Quay after Independence, I will personally hound them out because of the part they played in trying to run down my country on behalf of the Westminster Establishment.

      I despise everyone of them, and would not rest until they either moved to England or retired.

      I don’t want that filth contaminating our new broadcasting corporation.

    86. flirb says:

      Possibly my biggest “pet” hate about the whole thing is the cost of a UK visa- a grand for my wife’s initial two year one then another grand to get permanent residence. The only rationale I can think of this (as my 3 year Japanese visas cost about 40 quid) is to keep skint foreigners out.

      The policy of this government is to set the charges for some immigration applications to be well above the cost recovery level “to reflect their value to successful applicants”. Translation: we gouge because we can.

      This gouging started in the early 2000s under New Labour, when I was taking my own trek through the immigration system on my way to becoming a naturalised UK citizen. In 2002, when I arrived, an application for Indefinite Leave to Remain was, believe it or not, free. Today it costs £1,093. (Add another £400 if you want to apply in person!) By the Home Office’s own reckoning, the actual cost to process such an application is £248. Naturalisation cost £68 in 2003. Today it’s £906. (Unit cost: £144.)

      Visa and naturalisation fees have also risen explosively over the past twelve years.

    87. Caroline Corfield says:

      You know it may well be that Scots are also concerned about immigration as Roger Mexico pointed out with the data, however a closer examination of the Scottish attitude to immigration would find a subtle difference between what Scotland and England think an immigrant is.

      The fact, as Truth has said, that many newly immigrant people pick up the local accent, that many first and second generation take on our sometimes dubious cultural attributes ( example- choosing Celtic or Rangers to support with all the other stuff that entails) makes them in Scottish eyes non-immigrants. We even put up with folk like my grandfather telling us the Dutch are a wonderful people while his grasp of that language descends to baby babble.

      I know several Scots who think immigration is too high but they’re not suggesting the local Italian restaurant sends everyone who’s not second generation back to Italy, nor indeed the local Rangers supporting cornershop owner be repatriated.

      In England there is a group of people who would agree with that mentality too, people like my father-in-law, who don’t like folk who won’t integrate and are concerned about cultural swamping (a thing whipped up out of nothing by the Daily Mail et al).

      But there are groups like Britain First, the BNP, the EDL, heck even UKIP, who have support for the idea that everyone must go, regardless of their accent or their generation, or their degree of integration, and that strict rules are then applied so the likes of Farage’s wife can get back in.

      Those groups do not have the support of the Scots, otherwise you’d have already noticed the SDL featuring more prominently in your news bulletins and UKIP would not be losing deposits. So again, the result of a poll needs to be filtered through the lens of cultural preconceptions and semantics and we know they are different in Scotland to the bulk of the population in the English SE, so why pretend the word immigrant is well defined everywhere as the same thing?

      And London figures are so low because London is very cosmopolitan, there aren’t many people going to suggest they support a policy that might see themselves repatriated.

    88. North Chiel says:

      the Scottish electorate surely must see what is “coming down the line”.If “no” wins then Cameron specifically will “take all the credit” on the back of the Westminster Euphoria(make no mistake they will have “won” the government equivalent of the Eurolotto”).The subsequent press and media “fanfare” (the media “acclaim”/”outpourings” be equivalent to the London olymics x tenfold),and will sustain Cameron and the Tories right through the general election campaign, thus he will be swept back into downing st ( at very worst with a minority govenment,but make no mistake , the BBC and PRESS will ensure this outcome).
      The traditional Labour vote in Scotland SURELY can see what this will mean for the next 5 years for OUR COUNTRY SCOTLAND.?

    89. CameronB says:

      Trying to get back on topic. Mote from Chatham House, a report submitted as evidence to the to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, House of Commons, on 1 October, 2012.

      The evidence submission focuses on the implications of UK EU policy if Scotland secedes from the United Kingdom. It argues that the impact for the UK would be profound and irreversible and lead to a significantly diminished role for the UK within the European Union.

    90. flirb says:

      Incidentally: I’m (obviously) not a Scot, but I’m an enthusiastic (or should I say desperate?) supporter of independence. I’ll waste no time moving north following a yes vote.

    91. Onwards says:

      Comments mow open on the BBC Olympics article.

    92. Macart says:


      Did the indyref feature at all as an issue in this poll?

    93. Craig P says:

      O/T – I have noticed a new tactic of argument (new to my friends, anyway), that everything is and always will be shit, what difference will independence make, so we might as well stick with the shit we’ve got now.

    94. goldenayr says:

      Have emailed Willie Rennie regarding his comments in this article.

      He appears to condone,by omission,the actions of the far right group “Britain First”.And I’ve asked him to clarify his position and rectify it if he’s been misrepresented.

      Interesting to see what happens.

      Is the organisation of paramilitaries an escalation of Project Fear.

    95. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “as Roger Mexico pointed out with the data”

      As “Roger” knows full well, and even pointed out in his post before going on to totally ignore it, SUBSAMPLES ARE WORTHLESS. The same subsample that showed Scottish voters concerned about immigration also had them opposed to leaving the EU by a huge margin of 50-25, with UK voters in favour of leaving.

      I refuse to engage in ANY discussion based on a subsample of fewer than 100 people.

    96. Tam Jardine says:

      Great piece. The ongoing theme of the no camp seems to be the ability to use 2 completely contradictory arguments to attack Scotland and the Yes campaign. This is why collusion of the press, bbc and stv are warping this referendum and will skew the result.

      Think how far ahead we would be in the polls with an honest, vigorous media in Scotland and the widet UK pressing every weak spot in both sides rather than colluding with No. We are going to have to win this the hard way.

      Immigration is just part of the issue in Scotland. Will need to seek out stats but longterm we need to look at what can be done to make it possible for working families to have more children. I got a wakeup call when visiting family in Norway. State support for nursery fees is high, one off payment per child makes our support from government look derisory. For a working couple over here to have more than 2 bairns nowadays is I guess fairly unusual.

      I always found it crazy the idea of people being unable to afford to have children in a country with an aging population but we have suffered from the right wing mantra of personal responsibility and low state assistance for years. The Conservatives use this aging population as a stick to beat us with without looking at the cause or ways to remedy.

      And I say this simply from my personal experience and that of friends and family – I’m no expert.

      Watching question time last night was a bit of an eye opener in seeing how even Caroline Lucas was getting lumped in with the other Westminster parties as anti UK is ergo out of touch with English voters.

      Strange days indeed. Struck me that maybe the English people need to leave Europe for the sake of their own renewal, so they can finally figure out the role they want to play in Europe for the future. Just don’t drag us out with you.

    97. ronnie anderson says:

      Another thing in relation to the costs of Faslane,

      The Nuclear fallout Shelters for the Elete, how much is

      the costs of maintaining them ,its never been mentioned

      anyone any ideas.

    98. Roger Mexico says:

      Ian Brotherhood says:

      If the Survation poll (sponsored by the Daily Mirror) had listed:

      ‘Whitehall/Westminster/The ‘City” as a ‘factor’, or listed them separately, that wouldn’t have altered the figures?

      Possibly. But the same thing would apply to those replying in rGB, just as much as in Scotland. And most people in rUK are probably as alienated from that trio as the Scots are.

      It’s worth pointing out that if you look at MORI’s long-running issues index asking “What would you say is the most important issue facing Britain today?” where people can reply anything they want (it’s a face-to-face poll rather than online), the latest figure for issues surrounding Immigration was 19% across Britain and 15% in Scotland.

      That’s also not really a significant difference, especially when you consider that MORI’s open options meant that 16% of Scots chose constitutional issues (only 1% in England) which would have decreased the percentages for all the other possibilities and wasn’t an option in the Survation poll.

      The point that everyone is studiously avoiding is that about a quarter of those asked gave “Too much immigration” as “the most important issue facing the UK today” both in Scotland and rGB. So using the GB figure as reason why Scotland must separate is not a very strong argument because public opinion is little different in Scotland.

    99. Jim Bo says:

      Flirb, why not move up before a Yes vote and join in the fun?

    100. Ken500 says:

      Scotland has been depopulated by Westminster economic policies. Immigration is NOT a problem in Scotland (or the rest of the UK) Scotland is half empty. The UK is one of the hardest places to settle in. In all Western democracies (Europe), without immigration the populations are falling. If all immigrants left and all emige returned the population of the UK would be higher.

      A Referendum on EU membership in the UK would vote YES

      20% support Fradge 80% do not.

      Fradge is an alcoholic in need of counselling.

    101. Ken500 says:

      8 People own the majority of the land in Scotland. Many absentee foreign tax evading landowners.

    102. Jim Bo says:

      @ Truth

      I’m well aware of the Surinder Singh route thanks. It’s thanks to him that I’ll have my family living with me in Scotland next year. Just damn annoying to miss what is guaranteed to be an incredible set of events this year. Try keeping me away in September though!

    103. call me dave says:

      Trident being discussed on Morning Call. A person who at 21 was sent as a guinea pig to watch the British hydrogen bombs being tested during Operation Grapple at Malden Island and Christmas Island in the Central Pacific Ocean.

      He was pensioned off 3 years later suffering from radiation symptoms.

      Anyhoo! He said something I had never been aware off in Wick and Hull.

    104. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Roger Mexico –

      re Whitehall/Westminster/City of London

      ‘And most people in rUK are probably as alienated from that trio as the Scots are.’

      The decisions made in those places affect every one of us every day – we want to make more of those decisions for ourselves. It really is as simple as that, and your playing the race card is desperate stuff.

      Others here are better qualified than me to analyse your cavalier use of stats and sweeping generalisations about public attitudes. The UKOK camp have fired their big guns – the Euro and the Pound blew up in their faces, and now we’re into the race/sectarian phase.

      It won’t work.

    105. flirb says:

      Jim Bo: Not feasible, alas!

    106. Truth says:

      @Jim Bo

      Wonderful news. You’d be surprised how many people have never heard of that route.

      Glad things are in hand, and you’ll be with your family where you should be.

    107. Truth says:

      @scottishskier & Caroline Corfield

      Careful now, Ian Brotherhood will be branding you racists as well.

    108. Tam Jardine says:


      Not a foregone conclusion UK would stay in EU I’m afraid. Support for an exit extends way beyond kippers. On this site survey alone it sits at 34%.

    109. Desimond says:

      Hell of a lot of anger from the Rev lately, me thinks he needs a hug, or something else starting with a ‘h’

      And no, im not volunteering!

    110. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

      Ok, I respect the opinions of those who say they don’t like Jackie Bird, it’s up to you whom you like and dislike after all. I’m just not sure you are aiming at the right target. Jackie Bird, like her or not, is merely a newsreader. She’s a personable auto cue reader and low level interviewer who does little more than read out what’s given to her, or repeat points said over her ear piece. She’s really not who you should be aiming your bile at. Really, “Don’t shoot the messenger” ; same with Catriona Shearer and Sally Magnuson.

      Now, on the likes of the *reporters* such as Eleanor Bradford, Glenn Campbell, Douglas Fraser, and Brian Taylor … there should be a special level in purgatory reserved for these deceitful, ("Tractor" - Ed)ous, lying b’stards. Sorry for the strong language, but I genuinely think they have taken tainted coin and deserve no quarter post independence.

      Exception to this is James Cook. I’ve had several conversations with him by twitter and I’ve seen a shift in his reporting over the past year. I think he’s pretty ok. Still not as independent and neutral as I’d wish for, but heoesnt indulge in the outright baiting and lying that Bradford, Campbell, Fraser and Taylor do.

    111. caz-m says:

      Ed Miliband pledge,

      “The Labour leader promised to give Holyrood more control over income tax, housing benefit and the work programme”.

      Listen to unionist Bernard Ponsonby trying to sell the latest bullshit from Miliband.

    112. misteralz says:

      O/T, but just been out for a wee cycle to help get some strength back into my buggered knee and saw on the community noticeboard that BT are holding an ‘undecideds’ meeting in Banchory town hall tonight. Exclusively with BT speakers. Fortunately, there’s an open Q&A session later on. Any Wingers able to make it posed as undecideds, then ask a few pertinent questions?

    113. Triangular Ears says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      I think you should apologise to Truth. I know him very well personally and he is not racist at all as you have so casually thrown around. He has married a non-European woman (who actually lived outside Europe too at the time) and has been subjected to the racist immigration rules himself with his wife, which had the potential, like others on here, to separate him from both his wife and child.

      I met you at the Glasgow Counting House meet and I have been generally impressed with your comments here and videos on Youtube and so on, but I think you’ve really jumped the gun here and made wild assumptions that simply aren’t true.

      Perhaps this is due to the heat of the debate, but since it’s now a new day I’d suggest re-reading your comments and consider if they have been over the top.

      Your highlighting of “them” and “us” is clutching at straws. Immigrants, by the very definition, are a “them” until they come here, aren’t they? And the “us” in his innocuous comment is quite clearly including non-white people in this country too as he already explained that similar anti-immigration comments are made by those (in Birmingham in the example) who are themselves from ‘immigrant stock’, for want of a better term.

      Quite how that can be racist I’m not quite clear.

      One final point. If Truth was a racist, why would he be telling Jim Bo about a loophole in the immigration rules to allow more non-EU immigrants to come here than might otherwise? Your accusation simply does not stack up and I think an apology is appropriate.

    114. misteralz says:

      Oh, and the flyer wasn’t there yesterday afternoon…

    115. Roger Mexico says:

      scottish_skier says:

      I might also add the poll asked about the ‘UK’ rather than Scotland. At the moment we constantly hear on the UK [largely English] news how many believe it [England/the rUK] has an immigration problem and UKIP are going to do well as a result. Maybe it [England/the rUK] does have a problem? […]

      A Scotland-wide poll asking clearly about Scotland would I imagine not be anti-immigration free. From voting patterns however, we’d expect this less of a concern than the rUK though.

      I think it’s possible that people were answering with a “UK head” on, but as the MORI figures show even given the possibility of picking more local issues, the effect is still there. I was actually surprised how high it was in Scotland in both polls, given that the pressures from immigration on for example housing would be less.

      YouGov do a similar tracker[1] that asks:

      Which of the following do you think are the most important issues facing the country at this time? Please tick up to three

      where the ambiguity of “the country” might help Scots take of any possible “UK head” (depending on which country is important to them). The latest figures for that[2] show “Immigration and Asylum” at 51% generally but 41% in Scotland. Significantly lower, but still high and the second most popular choice as it is in rGB.

      YouGov also ask the same question with the words “you and your family” replacing “the country”. Interestingly this causes immigration to drop down the hit parade to fifth across GB with 17%. The drop is particularly strong in Scotland where it goes down to 5%, which rather supports the idea about resource pressure from immigration being less in Scotland.

      A properly balanced Scottish poll would be ideal of course but what evidence there is shows that that Scots are almost as likely to see immigration as an important issue as rGB. This may well be derived mainly from the media rather than personal experience, but the same thing is also true for those elsewhere, though the difference is particularly striking in Scotland.

      Again the main point I’m making is that public opinion in Scotland is not so different from it is in England and Wales on these issues and to claim that there’s an enormous gulf that only separation can resolve is simply making a very weak argument for independence. And as the No campaign demonstrates regularly, weak arguments undermine your case, rather than reinforce it.

      [1] Normally fortnightly, but because of Bank Holidays the most recent is 7-8 April.

      [2] Sample size 187, so Stu can stop sulking.

    116. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Triangular Ears –

      I did not call Truth a racist. The language he used in that post, by his own admission, can fairly be interpreted as such. I was perhaps too hasty in responding to his post, as Truth was in his interpretation of the Mirror stats.

      If it’s a misunderstanding, fair enough. I apologise.

    117. goldenayr says:

      Ian Brotherhood

      Stop trying to impersonate me.

      I thought I was the only one allowed to be castigated on here?

    118. Truth says:

      @heraldnomore 8:20am

      That’s a bloody outstanding newsnet article, thanks.

      I loved the snippet from the BBC website in 2006 at the bottom!

    119. Blair paterson says:

      I am from Greenock I worked in the shipyards and when they were closed I moved down to England for work I now live in Camberley and the number of emigrants here and in the surrounding towns is very ,very large I must admit I am not happy with this I feel in the minority now so I would say to my fellow scots just wait until the emigrants come flooding in to Scotland and then see how you feel about it seeing is believing so I will be voting for ukip enough is enough I do not mean to upset or offend anyone but this is how I honestly feel Vote yes

    120. CameronB says:

      I’ll keep out of this. 🙂

    121. caz-m says:

      Gavin Barrie (Jammach)

      The Burd at BBC Scotland is as guilty as the rest of her ("Tractor" - Ed)ous unionist scumbag colleagues.

      Would you honestly have that piece of trash reading the news to an Independent Scotland.

      You’re not related to her, are you?

    122. goldenayr says:

      Thank you for your support..:-D

    123. Truth says:

      @scottish skier

      We could also use a much larger sample and consult the survey on this very website (top right of page for the uninitiated).

      On the subject of immigration at the time of writing 8% believe we should discourage immigration where possible, and 41% believe the current approach is roughly right.

      Now I know joining up survey results is not particularly liked around these parts, but that’s nearly 50% of readers of this site who would most likely not be in favour of increasing immigration.

      My own personal belief is that emigration of our people is a far bigger issue, our young people in particular. I believe an independent Scotland will create more opportunity for all, and hopefully stem the outflow of our people for economic reasons.

    124. Rossman says:

      That YouGov poll of young people highlighted by Piemonteis showing the significantly higher levels of engagement with politics and optimism for the future amongst young Scots is one of the most genuinely uplifting and hopeful signs I’ve seen this year – let’s keep it going onwards and upwards!

    125. Jammach says:

      Blair, ok, let’s be frank. Are we talking brown skinned immigrants or white skinned immigrants? 🙂 Previous, I lived in Wolverhampton and worked for Birmingham Midshires, a company with a very healthy representation from the local British Asian population. Still got many friends from there, but they were mostly British born adults who’d grown up speaking multi-language and they were very open both in adapting what they liked of British Culture whilst still being proud of their heritage.

      Fast forward to modern Edinburgh where I am now and it’s sizeable Polish community centred around Gorgie. Lovely folk. We have some Polish colleagues at my work, they’ve settled here, married, raised families, they bring in cakes on their birthdays and religious days … we have good banter about culture, politics, etc.

      I have a young British Pakistani couple living in the flat below me. We occasionally cook for each other, look after eachother’s places when we go on holiday … What’s common in all this? Integration and respect. I think, as a whole the Scots excel at this. Other parts of the UK, sometimes not as much. I like my multi-cultural Scotland because we don’t, by and large, have ethnic ghettos with people people peering suspiciously at each other over high fences

    126. Liquid Lenny says:

      Greannach re Jackie Birds talents, she is very talented, brilliant and very funny after dinner speaker and fantastic singer to name but two.

      Caz-M We are going to have to live together after we win this. If people are not on our side its our job to convince them otherwise not ostracise them.

    127. X_Sticks says:

      misteralz says:

      “BT are holding an ‘undecideds’ meeting in Banchory town hall tonight.”

      Thanks for the heads up misteralz.

      I won’t be able to go as I’m (very last minute) going to go down for a brief Jolly at Broughty Ferry, but message passed on, so hopefully some of our lot will manage to attend.

    128. velofello says:

      @ caz-m,

      C’mon now,your comment and opinion on Jackie Bird does you no credit.The BBC, now they are a legitimate target,so fire away on Aunty – what a deceit to call the BBC Auntie.

    129. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      caz-m at 10.33

      Bernard Ponsonby is no unionist I can assure you.
      I have just watched the clip you suggested.
      He does no more than report what Labour says and in no way tries to sell it, describing Labour as the more timid of the unionists and their present pitch as greatly watered down.
      Perhaps you watched something else.

      We have enough enemies without inventing extra ones.

    130. Truth says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      If it’s a misunderstanding, fair enough. I apologise.”

      Taken out of context and emphasised it’s not very nice is it?

      There are a lot of people who’s views you may not care for, but that is frankly another debate. One we can all have after we secure a yes.

      One thing is for sure there are bigots, mysoginists, racists, homophobes and more on both sides of this debate. If you want to cast aside everyone but pure of heart yes voters, you’re not going to win in September.

      Nobody should have to tolerate vile opinions, but neither should anyone have to tolerate baseless accusations or adulterated representations of what they said to create a bad impression, for what were, in essence, innocent observations.

      Racism is a form of ignorance that can be broken down. It can’t be broken down by shouting racist at people. It’s a process similar to turning no voters to yes.

      I don’t want to be part of a site that turns people away or discourages debate based on their beliefs or opinions. And I believe your behaviour will put some people off.

      We need everyone to pull together to get our independence, then we can get on building that better Scotland, where we can enlighten those with distasteful beliefs, and where we can be proud to welcome those of other cultures.

      Apology accepted.

    131. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “We have enough enemies without inventing extra ones.”

      I have enough enemies without having to keep shouting LINE BREAKS! at people who should know better by now…

    132. Misteralz says:

      X_Sticks – I was hoping you or Gordon would pick up on it! I’m nowhere near as active in the campaign as I’d like to be – two young children see to that – so if I can help out any other way then, well, y’know…

    133. X_Sticks says:

      Misteralz says:

      “so if I can help out any other way”

      There will be lots of papers to fold as the new Yes paper is now out….

      Folding the papers really IS getting your hands dirty 😀

    134. Cath says:

      “The biggest worry of a no vote is what is going to happen to the UK when we have a new Tory UKIP coalition”

      Though in a very bad way, it is almost worth voting no just to watch – from abroad somewhere – Scottish Labour unionists types howling about it and trying to placate people who voted no based on “definite more powers” when devolution is being rolled back.

    135. ronnie anderson says:

      Labour ad on Daily Politics attributed to Douglas Alexander

      now for definite the Loony,s are in charge of the Labour


    136. X_Sticks says:

      Sorry O/T for Stu

      I was hoping to have my Wings badge(s) to add to my collection on my daft Yes hat for the get together in the ferry tonight – but haven’t got them yet.

      Am I alone, or have you just not had time to get them out yet?

      I am FULLY aware of how busy you are, so not trying to add to the pressure…

    137. scottish_skier says:

      Again the main point I’m making is that public opinion in Scotland is not so different from it is in England and Wales on these issues and to claim that there’s an enormous gulf

      Your Yougov example isn’t much better – it asks about what people would vote in a British general election before turning to the subject of immigration.

      Oh I agree there’s not an enormous difference. I think most would worry about the concept of mass, uncontrolled immigration for example. My understanding is that in Scotland (17% not born here), integration is better, hence less tension / concerns.

      Part of that is because in Scotland, immigrants are largely free to feel / become Scottish in national identity (check out the census for CoB, ethnicity etc vs natID). In England, for reasons not fully known to me, they feel English is reserved for white ‘indigenous’ people only so instead can only feel British.

      See here for example:

      “Thus, across all Scottish and Welsh groups, regardless of participants’ ethnic backgrounds, national identification [with Scotland and Wales respectively] was much stronger than identification with Britain, although those identities were not seen as incompatible or mutually exclusive.

      The situation was different in England, where there was a sharp difference in the ways in which white English and ethnic minority participants thought of themselves. Most white English participants saw themselves as English, first and foremost, but also as British.

      By contrast, most ethnic minority participants (except for black Africans, as discussed below) saw themselves as British, to the exclusion of any identification with England, since they strongly associated England with white English people.”

      I wouldn’t call this a huge gulf, but clearly a large cross-border cultural difference and one which you’d imagine can part explain differences, however nuanced, in attitudes to immigration.

    138. Roger Mexico says:


      Well we can only work with what we have. There does seem to be some difference, but it’s a lot less than some people hope and Stu was unlucky in highlighting a poll when there was none at all.

      There are far fewer immigrants in Scotland of course – 7% born outside UK as opposed to 13% in England and Wales, though in percentage terms the rise in Scotland may have been greater in recent years. However a lot of Scottish ‘immigrants’ may be secondary, having lived or been raised elsewhere in the UK and greater availability and flexibility of housing may have helped avoid ghettoisation to the same extent.

      Also significant may be the way that Scottish media and politicians have made less of an issue about immigration – in part because emigration was always seen as a greater worry.

      Immigrants seeing themselves as x and British rather than x and English is I think in part due to the rather uncertain nature of English identity itself – though of course an older generation of Commonwealth immigrants often saw themselves as British in part even before they arrived. However I get the impression that the English brand is to some extend beginning to be detoxified and become more geographic and less racial, though this is happening only really in the last few years. To some extent they have the Scots to thank for that, by making thinking about such things less automatic.

    139. Liquid Lenny says:

      Just spend half an hour with an English lady, who is undecided moving to YES, she asked about immigration, I said we need more people in Scotland , so immigrants are welcome. She said no we don’t want more people it will get more crowded, I said, Arran is the same size as Singapore and Singapore has the same population as Scotland, Although Singapore is overcrowded we have heaps of room. She explained that she wasn’t against more immigrants from Europe and beyond but didn’t want more English people moving here as she had moved up here to get away from them!! So guess its a very complex issue..

    140. scottish_skier says:

      There are far fewer immigrants in Scotland of course

      Scotland’s population is ~17% immigrants (those not born in Scotland).

    141. Cameron at it again. Doesn’t mind debating with anyone. Except Alex of course.

    142. Cath says:

      “She explained that she wasn’t against more immigrants from Europe and beyond but didn’t want more English people moving here as she had moved up here to get away from them!! So guess its a very complex issue..”

      That is a fair point, I think. Not in a racist way. But there is something rather nice about getting the train from London to Glasgow and having the entire carriage to yourself north of Preston. There’s something wonderful leaving work on a Friday night and popping your bike on a ferry to Arran or Bute and finding, within 2 hours of Glasgow, wonderful, quiet, unspoiled places where you can escape crowds. It’s also lovely to look at the prices of bedsits in London and consider your mortgage on a 2 bed flat in Glasgow is half the price.

      If I was running Better Together my posters would show unspoiled Scottish scenery with the line, “Why risk our country becoming a booming and busy nation when it’s QUITE NICE being a forgotten yet beautiful backwater?”

      Instead they go for, “you’ll fail and it’ll all go horribly wrong and you’ll end up EVEN MORE OF A BACKWATER THAN YOU ARE NOW!” Which just isn’t credible.

    143. Bill Walters says:

      The British Social Attitudes survey shows that 78% of English people want immigration reduced, compared with 69% of Scottish people who also want it reduced. That’s a difference, but it’s not much of a difference and both populations are clearly anti-immigration by that measure:

      I support increasing immigration – EU freedom of movement provides real economic benefits to us whether people realise it or not – but this idea of a substantial divide in opinion between Scotland and England just isn’t backed up by actual polling on the subject. People in general are anti-immigration and Scotland is no different. We won’t change that until politicians (Scottish, English, whatever) start selling the benefits of immigration to people in a way that they can understand.

    144. scottish_skier says:

      @Bill Walters

      That’s a poll on attitudes to immigration to Britain with a small sub-sample of Scots. As pointed out earlier, many in Scotland are likely to interpret that as meaning England / the rUK and not specifically Scotland. It’s therefore not a reliable measure for Scotland.

    145. North Chiel says:

      Think that there may well be a subtle ipediment in the
      social attitudes survey result swing 69% of scots want a reduction.My thinking is that the “Scottish responder” is actually answering this question from a UK perspective and not a Scotland perspective. (Understandably so because of the press/media coverage is so skewered towards RUK).Thus i would suggest that this could possibly show a higher percentage than actually if the question was posed specifically in a SCOTTISH CONTEXT.

    146. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

      I know I’m in danger of throwing petrol on a fire here, but I’ve been around t’internet since before the Web was invented and I’m afraid, @Truth, you’ve just done something that really rankles me.

      Fair enough when people post a big, long reasoned Ask for an apology. You got it. Be happy. The trick with getting an apology is then to finish your point GRACEFULLY and let the normal conversation flow resume.

      You’ve gone off on another one. That is very, very boring. Be *very* careful about setting yourself up as a moral authority, or arbiter of what people say. That’s Rev Stu’s job. Consider yourself being watched. Politely watched. 🙂

    147. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

      @Truth – oh yeah and whilst I’m on the subject, it’s generally good manners, when accepting an apology, to thank the person giving it. You appear to have missed that out. I’m sure you’ll want to correct this at the earliest opportunity. Thank you 🙂

    148. Truth says:

      @Gavin Barrie

      I’m by no means setting myself up as any moral authority, and have no desire or qualification to do so. I didn’t particularly like seeing another poster being told to fuck off, when I thought it wasn’t particularly warranted. I playfully suggested we play nice. No point fighting amongst ourselves and all that. I also made some observations to add to the debate.

      I then had that post unfairly in my opinion taken out of context with words emphasised to make me look like something I was not. When I asked why this had been done I was “invited” to what I took to be a somewhat threatening situation and my language was called racist.

      Someone who I happen to know in real life has stepped in (unprompted by me I might add) and suggested an apology was in order.

      This apology was predicated with qualifications. My acceptance was predicated with qualifications. It’s give and take. Ian is a poster I had respect for, and still do as a matter of fact. I know he’s big enough to take on board what I said.

      And in the spirit of goodwill and reconciliation, you are indeed correct that it is only right thanks should be given.

      Ian, it takes a big man to apologise, and for that I thank you.

    149. Truth says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Oh and I’ll add that I too am sorry if my “acceptance speech” antagonised you.

    150. Gavin Barrie (Jammach) says:

      @Truth – thank you. Very gracious 🙂

    151. Blair paterson says:

      Jammach i am referring to all emigrants if that was not the case I would have said so vote yes

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