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Wings Over Scotland


We know this one

Posted on October 16, 2018 by

We’re pretty sure it was “Listen to you about being ‘better together’, so that they ended up with a Tory government they didn’t vote for but which was imposed on them by the people in a much larger country, and which has a long track record of imposing brutal, callous welfare policies on the poor for largely ideological reasons, and which has entirely predictably continued to do so”.

It’s not rocket science, hen.

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    126 to “We know this one”

    1. Kangaroo says:

      Absolutly Stu. Totally despicable treatment of people who have done nothing to deserve it.

      Perhaps someone may have alledgely been “Bought and sold for record gold.”

    2. Muscleguy says:

      Short Kezia response: But, but Scotland too poor for welfare.

      Expecting it in 3, 2, 1 . . .

      We are not of course too poor.

    3. Street Andrew says:

      Well said, Stu.

      Spot-on.

      Presumably you believe in redemption ? Perhaps Kezia is redeemable. If we are patient enough we may see her accept the light of humanity and reason. (?)

    4. Greannach says:

      What are Kezia Dugdale’s crocodile tears in aid. Dugdale crusaded on the side of David Cameron and Ruth Davidson during 2014 to ensure that Scotland remained under London (AKA Blue Tory) control.

    5. Capella says:

      Brilliant. Succinct, accurate and irrefutably logical. Should be posted everywhere.

    6. One_Scot says:

      Honestly, sometimes you just wonder, are unionist politicians just taking the piss, or are they really that stupid.

      Seriously, if we cannot break free from these clowns soon, I may never stop crying. 🙁

    7. Julie Lewis says:

      Completely agree, except, could you drop the hen? It sounds funny I agree, but is another example of language that is a bit dismissive that is only applied to women, and therefore I would feel more comfortable reading this if the word were not used. Cheers.

    8. Macart says:

      That Ms Dugdale even has to ask the question…

      Just wow. 😮

    9. Collie says:

      Rev,

      There are rumours that the Roll Out of Universal Credit has been put back to November 2020.

      Lets hope so.

    10. Robert Alexander Harrison says:

      This is what it means to be British in Scotland just accept everything done by Englanders elected government even though you rejected them then blame someone else or wonder what happened because you wanted this over scotland having powers of an independent nation to change everything and in kezias case she is that stupid and after all this she still wants the union theyshould put her face in the dictionary to define what a lost cause truely is.

    11. Dr Jim says:

      “Under NO circumstances will I ever support Independence”

      That’s what Kezia Dugdale said, “NO circumstances” so what’s the point of her high pitched whining when any government of England by the power of ten to one votes over Scotland can do whatever it wants anytime it wants

      Perhaps Kezia Dugdale believes her existence and job security are soley based on her ability to make that noise every time the English government do something she actually voted for by keeping them in charge

      “I’ll keep fighting Tory injustice” said Kezia Dugdale, right after she votes for it, then she says “The only way is to get a Labour government” then she says “I can’t support Jeremy Corbyn” then she says “How can anybody trust the Labour party”

      I think there’s a name for folk who enjoy punishment being inflicted upon them, and there’s a name for what Kezia Dugdale is as well

    12. Collie says:

      What is it with you whinging Scots,,don’t you know Harry is going to be a dad.

      Rule Britannia.

    13. Holebender says:

      Sturgeon must resign!

    14. Collie says:

      As someone posted a few days ago,,Kezia has to stay on the side of her paymasters at the Daily Record, so no matter how bad this Union is, she will stand by it.

      Kezia can also be found in the dictionary under the term “self centred bastard”.

    15. galamcennalath says:

      It really is overdue time that some key characters of BetterTogether faced up to the reality that they made a terrible mistake. BT talking heads deceived and conned 100,000 of Scots into remaining under inevitable zero-mandate Tory rule. If the likes of Dugdale honestly believed anything different would happen then they are absolute fools.

      Let’s face it, though, many knew exactly what they were doing. They are loyal British Nationalists whose alegience is to London. Others had personal vested interests in maintaining the UK system.

      Exactly what Dugdale’s motives were, I don’t think are entirely clear. However, It is never to late for an admission of getting it totally wrong.

    16. defo says:

      Despise is a strong, ugly sentiment, best kept in reserve for a very select few.
      Like her, and her Mentor Lard Foo.
      This shit isn’t some abstract notion of identity, or party politics.
      It’s serious. Real lives ruined.
      It’s people just like us, being unfairly put through hell, for nothing more than the advancement and self promotion of seriously fucked up individuals, who care sfa for no one and nothing beyond what stares them in the mirror.

    17. Brian Powell says:

      My take is that Labour love this, in fact the Tories, Labour and the unions love ordinary folk to stay with Labour in Scotland.

      People have been in unions and voting Labour for many decades. The Tories don’t mnd because they have been beating the unions for decades, membership keeps falling, Tory Governments reduce union power, and while they control Westminster and finance they control Scotland.

      Labour likes unions because the members supply them with money and votes.

      Unions have their workplace officials and members fighting one small ‘battle’ after another so they never have time to ask, is this the right war and could we do this better?

      Unions have great office space in London and do international conferences with expenses.

      My take is Labour, Tories, tory bosses and unions don’t like the independence movement or the SNP or the the Scottish Government because it gives people the chance to decide on the ‘war’ or the peace, and how to achieve them.

      Keeping ordinary people fighting class and work place skirmishes ties them down and means the powers of Tories, Labour and the unions are never really challenged by people deciding “the society we want is this”.

    18. orri says:

      It’s simple really.

      The principle behind Universal Credit is to make savings by amalgamating all the benefits someone is entitled to into one
      thus cutting down on administration costs whilst there should be no difference in what recipients get.

      However you’ve got tories in charge and presumably a new computer system on to boot. So rather than simply streamlining the system they can’t resist introducing tests. Remember ATOS with bonuses for reducing claims even after a point where that should be near impossible. If it’s a new computer system on top then they get the added bonus of blaming problems on that.

      As I said, there nothing in principle wrong with the idea of Universal Credit. The problems lie in the hands of a government using it to mask their own agenda.

    19. Clootie says:

      Kezia hang your head in shame!
      Scotland and especially the poorest are suffering because you championed the Better Together message AND more recently “Vote Tory” in Scotland. Had it not been for the LibDems, Labour Branch and the DUP we would not have had a continuous Tory Government driving through austerity and Brexit.

      Kezia do not try to dodge YOUR share of the responsibility.
      Brown, Dugdale, Rennie, Darling, Murphy, Leonard, Lamont’s, Campbell, Carmicharl, Wallace and many, many more are why we are at this point.

      It is no surprise that the Tories behave as they do. What is surprising is that the Labour branch found them suitable bed mates.

      I hope everyone in Scotland remembers the treachery of the Labour Branch Office – Union before a Nation’s people.

      The audacity to blame others when you helped them is disgusting.

    20. Dave M says:

      Rocket science is about as simple as physics gets, Stu… 😉

    21. Robert Peffers says:

      @Street Andrew says: 16 October, 2018 at 10:44 am:

      ” … Presumably you believe in redemption ? Perhaps Kezia is redeemable. If we are patient enough we may see her accept the light of humanity and reason.”

      Now then, Street Andrew, I’m a very patient, man. I’m also a very forgiving man. However, I’m not that patient and I’m not that forgiving. Perhaps that may be because certain people are not that much redeemable.

    22. This political failure list MSP was on QT on Thursday, moved from the Record to the dying Hootsman, still talking pish.
      Dugdale’s Red Tories voted with the Government to implement £32 billion in cuts to welfare and public services.
      Even Commie Corbie who has chucked KD into the long grass to eat grubs and drink puddle water, will follow through with the remaining £7 billion of Osborne’s(!) cuts.
      So, in answer to the Queen of Nothing’s question,
      ” What on Earth have these people done to deserve being left to fend for themselves with less money for food or energy bills?”, they voted for you, Ms Dugdale and your Brit Nat Red Tory Party.
      You are equally to blame for poverty, penury, and premature deaths imposed by our English Imperial Masters.
      Good job.

    23. England is about to erupt, yet this lass still gets air time and column inches, to whine.

    24. manandboy says:

      At a stretch I might use The Scotsman for the bottom of my budgie’s cage, except he prefers a sheet of sandpaper.

    25. defo says:

      Wernher von Braun would probably disagree Dave, not to mention the 400,000 peeps who worked on the apollo programme. The Voyagers weren’t a walk in the park either. 🙂

    26. Clootie says:

      Redemption for Kezia would be easy to achieve. Make a public declaration of your previous error and devote yourself to the Independence movement. However I do not expect that to happen because she will put her own future first…that is what Labour politicians do.

      The Labour voters and members took a different path and moved to the SNP…which only proves my point.

    27. Dr Jim says:

      We had a vote in 2014 so democracy’s over in Scotland for all time and we know this because the new shiny slogan they’ve come up with now is *You can’t have a referendum anyway because Nicola Sturgeon said support needs to be @66%*

      So the referendum that we cannae have we cannae have even more because Nicola Sturgeon said unless we get 66% support for it it’s off, now Nicola Sturgeon at no time ever said any such thing but we see how the frothy mouthed Yoonatics keep running up to the jaiket goalposts and shoving them in then claiming it wisnae thame

      The rules are only the rules when England makes the rules

      Yoons must be constantly applying Savlon to their knees as well as their backs, Kezia should apply some tae her mooth

    28. Luigi says:

      Kezia reveals her true colour. What she’s willing to suffer:

      Endless Tory rule. Blue or red. That’s the price of being British. Everything based on denial and the difficult task of living with one’s self. Managing constitutional and societal failure, and dampening public expectation. The answer to most of her problems is obvious, but true to her BritNat leanings, she refuses to go there.

      Boy do these proud Scottish BritNats who call themselves “socialists” and “internationalists” live in a dark and menacing place. No wonder they never smile, never laugh (unless it’s forced). Poor souls – oh I forgot they don’t have souls – those were sold off long ago. 🙂

      Desperately unhappy people, those stubborn “proud scot but” types. Nothing to look forward to, apart from continuing the hopeless struggle and resist, resist, resist, and look on helplessly, as the indy movement slowly grows and grows. And you know what hurts them the most when they look on? It’s all those happy smiling faces – the happiness, the positivity, the hope of the ones who lost in 2014. They wonder why the losers are so happy when they themselves, who won, are so desperately unhappy. This devastates them. With another IndyRef round the corner, they know that they will have to face their BritNat demons again. As if 2014 wasn’t a painful enough experience. Here we go again. 🙂

      So folks, you know what to do – stay happy. We, the losers, are in a much better place. Be thankful you are not on the other side – how sad would that be? Keep smiling. 🙂

    29. Sharny Dubs says:

      I think the principle is, the people who see through you were never going to vote for you anyway (like us) and a percentage of people who, for whatever reason, cant see through you will vote for you, even if you do spout crap.
      They don’t care.
      They just spout.
      Lets call it “fishing”
      No rhyme,
      Not much reason.

    30. Hamish100 says:

      ….. and still Dugdale holds to the cause of unionism imposing their austerity on the poor.

      Better unionist and tory rather than an independent and caring country.

      The labour unionists are hard to fathom. Independence for all nations but Scotland.

    31. CameronB Brodie says:

      Given her academic background, this woman’s hypocrisy can not be overlooked. Charlatan or ignorant stooge of finance capital and xenophobic intolerance? Patriot to Scotland or British nationalist? Who cares, she’s damaged goods, politically.

      The Political Economy of Brexit
      http://blogs.bath.ac.uk/iprblog/2016/06/27/the-political-economy-of-brexit/

      The Political Economy of Brexit and the UK’s National Business Model.
      http://speri.dept.shef.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/SPERI-Paper-41-The-Political-Economy-of-Brexit-and-the-UK-s-National-Business-Model.pdf

      Critical political economy, free movement and Brexit: Beyond the progressive’s dilemma
      http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/115919/3/BJPIR%20Parker.pdf

    32. orri says:

      The figure is 60% polling for a fairly significant time.

      The 66% is that needed to change the rules of the SNP. So it’s a fall back to the ’79 minimum turnout kind of thing.

      You’d almost think they know the next indyref is going to succeed so are trying to rewrite the rules so it has to meet ridiculous conditions in order to win.

    33. Effijy says:

      Why would anyone even consider printing a statement from this woman?

      Her Party abstained when they had a parliamentary vote on the next round of Tory austerity cuts so they were obviously not against
      it.

      She herself also put forward that people should vote Tory in areas where Labour couldn’t win just to stop SNP winning and puting the people of Scotland First.

      She also needs to remember that she got her job via the back door when rejected by her own constituency. The people don’t want her!

      She like her party and westminster government are despicable!

    34. What does Mundell Davidson and Dugdalei have in common ??? Also why are we hearing about oil rich Arab countries but oil poor Scotland ???

    35. Artyhetty says:

      Kezia Dugdale must be stuck to the floor with the weight of her brass neck. How these people sleep at night is a mystery.

      There are and will be many more children not sleeping at night because they are going hungry as a result of her favourite Tories and their criminal so called ‘welfare’ system. It’s designed to cause maximum damage and it is.

      I read that a school in Middlesborough is having to set up it’s own foodbank for children. In 2018, this cesspit of a UK has foodbanks, terrifying that this will all get much worse with Tory/Labour Brexit.

      Kezia gives not one hoot about the people suffering huge hardship due to her pals the Tories’ Universal so called ‘Credit’. Her faux concern is the most sickening part so far.

      The SNP government are already having to mitigate so many cuts in income to the poorest, at the hands of the Tories. When Tory/Labour cuts to ‘benefits’ are implemented, it impacts not just on peoples’ lives individually, but on councils, on the local economy, and the wider economy.

      The fact that the Tories refuse to devolve U.C. is very telling.

      There you go Kezia, it’s what you bloody well wanted, Tory policies galore! You scheming Tory trougher!

    36. Truth says:

      I really don’t expect Kez and the others benefitting from the political gravy train to “click” with what you have said.

      When though will the average Joe who is being monumentally screwed actually cotton on to these facts? Better still when will they cotton on to these self serving duplicitous arseholes?

    37. Corrado Mella says:

      There’s a specific mental illness that causes this behaviour, and is manifest in many Unionist politicians.

      It’s called Sociopathy.

      Sociopaths are attracted by any form of power and are usually those that raise in the ranks because they’re ruthless and have no empathy. Right bastards and backstabbers.

      You all know at least one in your circle of friends and acquaintances.

      The end result is that we’re usually dictated by a gaggle of minus habens hobbled by a mental illness.

      If we don’t get a grip on this and start demanding anyone in a public or private office of relevance is subject to a stringent check against dehumanising psychiatric illnesses, humanity will not be safe from this rot, this cancer that is slowly eating it from inside.

      Global warming? Sociopaths exploiting today’s resources for profit fucking over the future of our children without a hint of guilt.

      Tax evasion? Sociopaths taking money away from our local and national economy, hobbling the circular economy and making everyone poorer.

      The examples could go on and on, and at the centre you can always find sociopathic behaviour.

    38. Elizabeth says:

      Whenever I look at her girnin dial with its pained expression and hear her dronin on about the how bad the Tories are behaving to the poor and disabled, I think “you charlatan!”

    39. Effijy says:

      I am a Trade Union member although it cant really do much for me these days due to changing professions but I recall some previous
      employers who would happily return to Dickensian days if it were not for the unity the trade union provides.

      As a reminder to other Trade Unionists here, you can like me make it clear that you do not pay the levy that goes toward keeping the Labour troughers in a job.

    40. Sarah says:

      @Corrado Mella – totally agree with you about psychiatric testing for all politicians. People without empathy can be brilliant in certain roles, and as subordinates, but NEVER as law makers or in overall charge of projects which involve people.

      Another fundamental change to the law relating to politicians is that they must always speak the truth – no lies or manipulation should be permitted. It is a disgrace that “political lies” are legally acceptable hence Alistair Carmichael getting away with it.

    41. Millsy says:

      ”Get me back in the Jungle – I’m a failed celebrity/politician !”

    42. Alex says:

      Well said, Stuart.

      Yet more breathtaking hypocrisy from Red Tories of all hues. As we all know, it’s baffling, is it not, that they can’t see the irony in all this: not to mention the SNP having to mitigate every callous, cruel, and cataclysmic English Parliament cuts to the most needy in our society.

      Mind you, does anyone listen to Kezia these days? Did anyone ever? Or, for that matter, HM’s Oppostion led by the chappie in Islington North.

      Like all BritNats, their simian-like slavery to Westminster would be amusing were it not so perilous to Scotland.

      And I’m proud to be a hanger-on!!

    43. Luigi says:

      Hamish100 says:

      16 October, 2018 at 12:07 pm

      The labour unionists are hard to fathom. Independence for all nations but Scotland.

      They don’t really believe what they preach.

      It’s all about personal career (and lifestyle that goes with it). “Me, myself and I”. Sociopaths with no true feelings for others, but clever enough to fake it. This is why the celebrities (popstars, authors, actors etc) and wannabe celebrities (politicians) are so keen on crude gestures and virtue signals. “Look at me: How nice I am, how generous and how concerned and caring I am!”.

      The genuine article would do good deeds quietly with no fanfare, but the racket these sociopaths make gives the game away – it’s all theatre and only done because it benefits Number 1.

    44. starlaw says:

      Kezia Like so many of her Labour Party will always uphold the rights of the poor. Poverty is the reason the Labour party was formed and in order to defend the poor Labour will happily assist in the creation of the poor.
      Labour sit in the House of Commons voting for or abstaining on Tory legislature which drive people into poverty.

      A bit like Foxhunters releasing fox cubs in the area they wish to hunt over at a later date.

    45. Gary45% says:

      This may be something someone has posted previously. (mibees naw)
      We know how the Unionists work on the gullible public, I can guarantee that there will be voters in Scotland who will believe the SNP are guilty of said UCs. Duggers and her ilk should hang their heads in shame.
      Expect the same mealy-mouthed excuses when the Brexit Shitania hits the fan.
      SNP Baaad as always.
      Mes Bo de fer.

    46. Ottomanboi says:

      Kezia Dugdale, famous for being vice-president of Aberdeen Uni. Dolly Parton soc. and for proposing the H of Lords should be deposited on Glasgow. There is other stuff but nothing quite beats Dolly Parton for honing that intellectual gravitas.

    47. Of course Kezia dugdale doesn’t want remind people by mentioning how she was part of the tory campaign telling us how we were better together.

      Or how she suggested to people to stop the SNP in seats Labour weren’t going to wing to vote tory

    48. Clootie says:

      Effigy

      Sadly I have to disagree.
      In the same way that Labour politicians abandoned their members needs for a life of comfort. Many Trade Union leaders treat their members as a political instrument.

      The original founding values of both Labour and Trade Unions are valuable and needed now more now than ever but those trusted with that responsibility have to often failed those who placed their trust in them.

      I give you INEOS as a recent example. A professional trade unionst abused a facility for the benefit of the Labour Party and the ensuing conflict left the employees worse off. Another case of “for the few, not the many”. I am happy to be corrected by good arguement if my example is considered flawed.

    49. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      BBC R2 (Jeremy Vine) about to give Crash Gordon the whitewash treatment. IndyRef2 must be very close.

    50. Scottish Steve says:

      The poor and vulnerable are suffering for the ideology of people like Kezia. The Union above all else. So long as we’re in the precious UK, people will continue to suffer the onslaught of nasty Tory governments. Kezia and other unionists in Scotland can help change that. But will they? I doubt it. The UK state must come first.

      Yet they call us nationalists.

    51. Sharny Dubs says:

      Thing that gets me, what’s with the hairstyle?
      Echo’s of one DUP leader, reminds me of when my ma used to lick and spit my mop to keep it doon, aye and use a safety pin to hud my school scarf tight behind my back so I couldnae reach it!!

    52. Dr Jim says:

      Just watching Ross Thompson on Politics live on BBC2 getting his face slapped by a more knowledgable Irish politician but still the idiot Tory carries on talking, and it occurred to me that not one of the Scottlsh Tory MPs is representing the wishes of their constituents or their country in fact they’re doing the opposite in representing the country of England and its voters expressly opposed to the people of Scotland who voted for them and in a different time would have been unable to return to Scotland for fear of being hanged

      Kezia Dugdale did exactly the same thing here in Scotland when she asked people to vote Tory in the full and certain knowledge of what they would do when elected

      The SNP to the best of its ability do exactly what the people who vote for them ask of them but their ability to do what is asked of them is constantly hampered by people like Kezia Dugdale and Ross Thompson who don’t represent their own constituents or country

      The folk who swither over how to vote or for who really aught to consider whenever they vote for a *UK* party they will always always be betrayed by those parties because the Scottish branches of those parties are in charge of NOTHING and when elected they obey the will of the larger main party who’s interests are NOT in Scotland but in the larger voting population of England who are taking us out of the EU that we didn’t vote for

      So the old phrase of vote Labour get Tory holds true, you only get Labour when England votes Labour and on current form that’s never going to happen so what ya gonna do swithering Scotland

      If only there was something? Hmmn?

    53. Dan Huil says:

      Red tories like Dugdale are hypocrites. Their hatred for Scotland knows no bounds.

    54. Hamish100 says:

      OT/
      Noticed in the National Dave McEwan Hill tacit support for the Daily Record. I agree with Dave on many things but a few SNP/ Pro Indy speakers in the Record is only a tactic by the Record to hold onto some pro independence supporters like Dave for sales. The fact its pro labour as Dave thinks is good (AS ITS NOT TORY) but it still means it is pro brit-nat union. Until as a red top it supports Independence for Scotland its a no from me.

    55. Petra says:

      The Labour Party cannie quite make up it’s mind if they’re actually Tories or not … as per usual. Kezia encouraged Labour supporters in Scotland to vote for the Tories. The Labour party voted along with the Tories in support of austerity cuts.

      They’ve now set up a petition to do away with Universal Credit

      https://action.labour.org.uk/page/content/stopuniversalcredit

      Whilst there’s signs of them backtracking.

      http://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/anger-and-dismay-after-labour-back-tracks-on-pledge-to-scrap-universal-credit/

      In other words neither party, Labour or Tory, are to be trusted. Support and vote for the SNP, the only political party that stands up for Scotland, but more than anything stands up for the sick and vulnerable.

      …………………

      You tell them Mhairi!! ”They cannie shout you down.”

      ‘Mhairi Black MP: speech on Universal Credit, Commons Opposition Day debate.’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZcaKKYEQsQ

    56. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Petra @ 1.47pm

      JINGS!!! You tell them Mhairi. What a barn-storming speech. I am so glad Mhairi is on our side, I’d hate to take a broken pay home to her.

      That lassie is a star.

    57. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim says at 1:14 pm …. ”Just watching Ross Thompson on Politics live on BBC2 getting his face slapped by a more knowledgable Irish politician but still the idiot Tory carries on talking, and it occurred to me that not one of the Scottlsh Tory MPs is representing the wishes of their constituents or their country in fact they’re doing the opposite in representing the country of England and its voters expressly opposed to the people of Scotland who voted for them and in a different time would have been unable to return to Scotland for fear of being hanged” …

      I saw the tail end of that programme, Dr Jim, with Ross Thompson using his final comment to put the boot into Police Scotland / the SNP. Probably agreed on with BBC’s Jo Coburn beforehand. He’ll be popular with Police Scotland .. NOT.

      And that’s the second time he’s been on TV today that I know of. The Unionist dupe.

      What a shower. He’s not representing the wishes of his constituents as Dirty money Davidson and ‘Scotland has the most powerfully devolved Parliament in the World’, Mundell are concerned about NIreland, but to h*ll with the fact that 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU. Strange one, eh? I’m beginning to think that they actually detest the Scots.

    58. Calum McKay says:

      Crux is, if you are in a union with a country who has ten times your population you dance to their tune not yours – this is the essence of the relationship between Scotland and England. Where the toxicity arises from, is that no official party or body outside of the SNP plainly outlines this to Scots. It is very evident to English people, but not Scots.

      It is not in labour or tory interests to spell the nature of the union clearly to Scots, so they don”t and in doing so perpetuate a false belief, of a union of equals. The belief is cemented and supported by the press and bbc.

      This belief of an equal partnership is now being eroded for Scots by 2014 indy Ref and brexit. It’s up to us on behalf of Scotland’s future to capitalise upon the changing dynamic and mindsets to secure independence!

      As for Keshia – I wonder if the money she received from labour for her court costs is tax deductible?

    59. jfngw says:

      I’m not sure what Ms Dugdale is complaining about, we are getting the policies which were already in the pipeline when she campaigned in 2014 for us to be part of them. Her party didn’t vote against the austerity when proposed for by the Tories, Ms Dugdale and her party are part of the problem not a solution.

      There is one solution but I believe Ms Dugdale would prefer Universal Credit than countenance that Scotland could do this differently. So basically I’m not really interested in her self serving whining whilst indirectly supporting these policies.

      It’s the same level of concern that Labour have for the GCC women, fake superficial support as long as it doesn’t harm Labour.

    60. Petra says:

      @ Socrates MacSporran says at 1:59 pm …. ”Petra – JINGS!!! You tell them Mhairi. What a barn-storming speech. I am so glad Mhairi is on our side, I’d hate to take a broken pay home to her. That lassie is a star.”

      Isn’t she just SMS. She gets right down to the nitty gritty and gives the cruel, callous and totally inept Tories, ALL Tories (and Labour), a REAL showing up.

      …………………….

      Just a wee reminder, folks, of how far the overall situation has totally deteriorated in the UK (England). And I don’t want to hear another Unionist MSP complain about our SNHS or Social Care Service during FMQ’s at Holyrood or via their Unionist media foghorns. If this (just ONE example of how many?) was going on in Scotland it would be splattered all over the media day and night and night and day for months to come. SNP Very, Very Baad. The SNP of course with no control over the DWP along with approximately 85% of all powers.

      Both posted by Nana previously and should be considered together, imo.

      http://www.thecanary.co/uk/2018/10/08/the-dwps-latest-round-of-staff-bonuses-is-a-disgusting-disgrace/

      https://twitter.com/pickledpuffin/status/1049062963712352263

    61. dakk says:

      So much research,so much sound bite engineering from british nationalist Dugdale.

      So little sincerity.

      Only if she ever had real financial hardships herself might we ever hear an honest word from this yoon career politician.

      In fact empty rhetoric is all I’ve ever heard from any britnat Yoon.

    62. Petra says:

      Oh and I meant to say check out the comments section.

      https://twitter.com/pickledpuffin/status/1049062963712352263

      ”It was part of an investigative article highlighting 1.8 million disabled that are waiting for accessible housing & experiencing difficulty because of #pips & benefit cuts.”

      ”The first gvt ever to be investigated by the UN for disabled human rights violations. Quite an achievement.”

    63. yesindyref2 says:

      I actually saw the Dimbledore show at 2 or 3 in the morning a day or two back. Most effective from our POV Val McDermid, third most effective Mike Russell, not his fault, Dumbledore kept sticking his wand up his own donkey over the top of Russell.

      But second most effective Kez Dugdale. For us, even if she didn’t realise it.

    64. Cubby says:

      Can’t say I have ever worked anywhere where there is a subsidised bar permanently on the work premises. If they want to improve behaviour in the H of Commons (200 people have come forward with behaviour complaints) then perhaps it is time to get rid of the bar.

      Do any of the devolved parliaments/assemblies have on site subsidised bars?

      Ross Thomson ( no p ) also stated today (politics live ) that all parties voted for the Introduction of Universal Credit. Does anyone know if the SNP voted for its introduction or is Scotlands own Tory Bampot lying again.

    65. yesindyref2 says:

      Interesting point made last thread by the way by someone, that Dimplebum had no problems talking over the top of Russell, was able to with Dugdale but not so easily as she had good presence and a sincere face, even did it to Rusk Thompson who has charisma and a bit of a baby face, quite a few Tories are like that and always have been, surely the only reason they get elected.

      But he didn’t dare do anything with Val McDermid, nor did Dimbore touch Falmouth Nelson. They’re not politicians.

    66. Dr Jim says:

      @Petra

      The more you appear on TV and outrage people the more they pay you and the more often you appear on TV, ad infinitum (Nigel Farage)
      Ross Thompson Like Kezia Dugdale is a self serving money grabbing little twit with no real concern for anybody they’re supposed to serve, it’s all about career and money, principles just don’t even come into it with these types and it goes all the way to the top, future personal management of self and how much can you accumulate in the shortest possible time before you’re found out and thrown out

      Take Jacob Rees Mogg, lovely well spoken well mannered gentleman with all his money in Dublin and Luxemburg and nothing in his beloved England, now you’d think if he was all principled up about the success of his Big British Brexit he’d invest in his own country but nope Jacobs money is elsewhere where it can do him the most good not the country he purports to love

      The England House of Commons might as well be the politics version of Big Brother or Love Island or you could say *The only way is politics*
      Like the old saying goes Politics is just acting for ugly people
      They’re not all ugly but I think you’ll get my meaning

      I like the old saying handsome is as handsome does, that’s why all the SNP folk look lovely

    67. Auld Rock says:

      Liza Nandy, MP, from Corbyn Labour HQ admitted on Politics Today at 12:15 to 13:00hrs that she didn’t know much about what was happening in Scotland. Was I surprised? Not in the least.

    68. Capella says:

      Let’s not forget that it was a Labour government that first outsourced work capability assessments to ATOS in 2008.

      The test was designed when Tony Blair was prime minister and introduced when James Purnell was Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Citizens Advice said of it: “Bureau advisers have expressed grave concern at the number of people unexpectedly being found fit for work”. New eligibility criteria were drawn up over the course of 2009 and given legal force in 2011[4] by David Cameron’s coalition government.

      Kezia’s hero, Tony Blair and saviour of the banks, Gordon Brown.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_Capability_Assessment

    69. jfngw says:

      O/T

      I see Mr Mundell is furiously denying he threatened to resign. There is some concern that it took him 2 days to deny this. Simple answer I suspect is that he has been stuck in the toilet since he read it on Sunday. The lion, tin man and scarecrow all encapsulated in a single personna, it’s quite impressive.

    70. Les Wilson says:

      There is not really anything surprising about this,denial is the yoons mantra. We know well what they do.
      With Kezie we do have another reason rather than simply following the cause of unionism.

      She needs to earn money, and she will add to her coffers, by writing anything that condems, yet supports, the better together syndrum.

      So as long as she gets interviews, invites on to chat shows, tv and radio she will be happy and will make some bucks.
      In that, she is going tory, that is what they excell at.

      She really cannot be serious with her concerns, because she still stands with them. I guess being two faced is also a tory normal, Kezie makes it obvious they are not the only ones who behave that way.

    71. jfngw says:

      Best comedy on TV, Ross Thomson lecturing an Irish politician on GFA, gets his arse handed to him on a plate. Next week he challenges Brian Cox (scientist) on the theory of black holes, apparently he has never came across one.

      The people of Aberdeen really need to apologise to us for electing this imbecile and bringing down the reputation of Scotland.

    72. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Whats that smell? Why its Scottish Labour of course definite whiff of sulphur.

      They would be funny but sadly it actually quite sad.

      Better together, hows that going?

    73. Macart says:

      Just saw a clip of the Ross Thomson appearance.

      OH. MY. GOD.

      What I’d like to know is, just where was the adult supervision? 😮

    74. susan says:

      Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat. All are Britnat parties and not to be trusted, let alone voted for by any self respecting Scot.

    75. robertknight says:

      Kezia Dugdale – Spokesperson for the Galactically Stupid!

    76. Proud Cybernat says:

      SNP strategy to ensure maximum YES vote in IR2 clearly emerging with entry to EEA (rather than full EU – we’d be out anyway – but perhaps with a full EU membership ref after indy). That’s what this looks like to me:

      “If the UK Government does not take up this sensible and practical position, then given the strong desire of the people of Scotland to stay in the EU, the Scottish Government would pursue a differentiated approach for Scotland that would allow us to stay in the European Economic Area (EEA) as set out in Scotland’s Place in Europe.

      The SNP is strongly committed to giving Scotland a choice on our future at the end of the Brexit process. Our proposal on the European Single Market and Customs Union membership offers the strongest foundation – short of continued EU membership – should, in future Scotland choose to be independent and seek to rejoin the EU.”

      https://www.snp.org/3-takeaways-from-nicola-sturgeons-speech-on-scotlands-place-in-europe/

    77. Legerwood says:

      O/T

      NHS England sending patients with eating disorders to Scotland for treatment because of lack of capacity in their system.
      Link to Guardian article

      http://archive.li/Sq4nB

    78. Bill Hume says:

      Dear Rev. Hen? HEN? Naw, mair like a headless chicken fluttering aboot…………disnae ken it’s already dead.

    79. Douglas says:

      Can anyone who is concerned about the implementation of Universal Credit (UC), and other benefits, please check out this FB page, it has wealth of help and information and if you join the group the admins and members will try their best to help:

      http://www.facebook.com/groups/ESAsurvivalguide/?ref=br_rs

      In addition, this website is also full of resources for those of you applying for UC/ESA/PIP etc:

      http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

    80. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Poor Kezia. Labour’s Better Together faustian pact was predicated upon Buggins’ Turn, where eventually when the English couldn’t stand any more Tory bitter medicine, Labour would get their little guest spot in No.10 to rule over all. Except that they were immediately shafted by Cameron, boundary changes and all, and given the indecisive shambles they’re in over Brexit, don’t appear very likely to triumph even if May does give them the chance.

      So Whiny Gal and the rest of NorthBritLab are reduced to trying to pretend black is white and night is day, that all the UK oppression visited upon us over these last years because of their own party’s craven abstention or even willing support in the HoC, and its total rejection in the Smith Commission of any significant additional powers for Scotland, is somehow, magically, all the fault of the SNP instead.

      The Glasgow equal-pay dispute writ large. Mind-numbingly uninspiring and breathtakingly hypocritical.

      But more and more of us are getting wise to that now. They are damning themselves by their own negativity and ineptitude. The more Kez whines, the more pathetic she looks, and the faster the miserable lot of them sink into well-merited obscurity.

    81. Az says:

      BOOM! Superb, back of the net.

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      OT = Defence
      An F-35B has conducted the first Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) on the HMS Queen Elizabeth. Previously the landings were by hovering at the side of the ship then moving in and landing vertically, similar to the way the Harrier did. Now it can fly forward (slowly) and land from behind without the cats and traps the Yanks have. Great video here:

      https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/f-35-conducts-first-shipborne-rolling-vertical-landing-on-hms-queen-elizabeth/

      This is an advanced technique which has many advantages. First, in the Falklands, if the Harriers returned from a mission without using their ordnance they had to drop it in the sea before landing (and maybe even dump fuel) which is costly, and not very good for the environment! Second it reduces wear and tear on the hardened and heat resistant deck, and third on aircraft landing gear wheels and even the airframe itself. I’d guess it’s quicker as well, who knows, meaning more sorties.

      Significance for the RN is obvious, in terms of cost savings and even deck repair and availability of aircraft.

      The QE is moving along fast, and it may well be ready before the targetted 2023 IOC (Initial Operating Capability) but also before emergency deployment capability in 2020 with a few aircraft (the UK now has 16). There’s a little speculation this will be good to counter the threat from the Russians. But something I’d say is that it could also mean the ability to act as a conventional deterrent would be available sooner as well, which could help to reduce tension. How that could affect nuclear deterrent plans, who knows, it seems increasingly clear to me the UK with Brexit will not be able to afford the Successor replacement of Vanguard, which could of course still be cancelled.

      Significance for Scotland is that SRVL could make my hope for a £400-£500 million LDA / LPH cheaper in terms of lifetime maintenance and repair, for any maritime state wanting a seaborne fast jet capability, which would in its turn, make it more neccessary not just desirable, for iScotland to have the same. It could also mean more orders for the B variant which would bring its price down, and maybe in my opinion as low as £80 million each (same as the A) by the time we’d be buying them, with a decrease in through lifetime operating cost. I think (could be wrong) the F35 is supposed to have a hull life of 9,000 hours but the B somewhat less – this could increase that hull life, and hence reduce the all-in lifetime flying hour cost. Maybe even a small fuel saving per landing.

    83. frogesque says:

      @jfngw, @ Makart:

      Ross Thomson is so far up his sel’ he can play Rubber Ducky on his tonsils. A child pretending to be an adult.

      In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, “What a maroon!”.

    84. Collie says:

      Why would anybody even think we were bothered about whether a dud jet lands on a white elephant of a ship that belongs to the English Navy.

      You have tried before keeping us updated on the progress of these doomed jets and the response from me is the same,,,who gives a flying fuck what the English or their Navy are doing.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      OT = Defence
      Forgot to add the Osprey has also landed on the QE, this is a pretty weird aircraft / helicopter capable of being used for air refuelling and also quite big transport capability, the UK is looking at them at the moment. Not cheap. Well worth a look all the same. I think Italy and Spain use them on their smaller carriers.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey

      This could augment the HMSS Scotia LDA, and give it a good capability for disaster or refugee relief, helping to dual her purpose. Add a fresh water osmosis plant for the Scotia, similar though maybe smaller than the QE’s, and some of the cost could even be genuinely taken out of the international aid budget, helping to spread the cost for the defence budget. Perhaps also with a superior operating hospital on-board, with a medic fly-in capability. Personally I’d like to see “dual purpose” built in during the design and even strategy stages. We defend, and we help those in need.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      @Collie
      I didn’t ask your permssion to post the defence information, and I don’t have the slightest intention of doing so in future either. Scroll on if you don’t like it.

    87. Collie says:

      Fuck England, Fuck her Navy and all who sail in her.

    88. frogesque says:

      @Collie: 5.58

      So long as England has a navy and Scotland doesn’t then there is the capability to interfere in our waters and potentially block our ports.

      We need to be interested.

    89. Collie says:

      Here we go again.

      The usual pricks buttin in and flying the English flag.

    90. Petra says:

      @ Dr Jim @ 3:34pm ……….. “The England House of Commons might as well be the politics version of Big Brother or Love Island or you could say the “only way is politics.”

      Just about sums them all up Dr Jim. On the otherhand I doubt the celebrity numpties on shows like Big Brother or Love Island are as greedy, cruel and callous as their superficial mates, ham actors, sitting in the London House of Horrors.

      ………

      @ RJS …. ‘Labour Party in Scotland track record.’

      I can’t wait for us to get our Independence and find ourselves in the position of being able to inform the Scots about what’s been going on (for decades / centuries) from McCrone, to Smith to the Equal Pay fiasco to Dugdale encouraging Labour supporters to vote for the Tories. The same goes for many journalists (not all) in Scotland. Too bad people don’t queue up at the dole anymore, because that, a long line of them, would be a wonderful sight to behold, imo.

    91. Collie says:

      Another fanny butts in flying the flag for England.

      I don’t give a fuck about England or her Navy.

      And what the fuck are you smoking mate, do you honestly think England will blockade Scottish ports?

    92. Petra says:

      What about getting lost Collie? And take your disgusting language with you. Both comments apply by the way to your Unionist mates who were on here last night.

    93. Famous15 says:

      Collie where did you come from? Very suspicious all this anti English bile. I think you are a troll.

      Trying to get this site blamed for racism? Begone buffoon..

    94. Capella says:

      @ yesindyref2 – ignoral is the best tactic.
      I know nothing about boats and planes but I do think Scotland needs an army, navy and air force for defence. Sooner the better. Glad somebody here knows what they’re talking about.

      Recommend Ken Burns’ “The Vietnam War” on Netflix. It’s about a liberation struggle from colonial exploitation. Costly way to do it but they had rubber and tin and our oligarchs wanted to control that. Luckily, we don’t have any precious minerals. 🙂

    95. Colin Alexander says:

      I was going to comment on Labour but, now is not the time for party politics, in my opinion.

      Benefit cuts are just one serious symptom of a greater problem, an unjust, unfair, undemocratic United Kingdom.

      The best solution is for us to get out of this UK.

      Time for an independent Scotland where the poor are treated with compassion and also given a chance to improve their lot in life, if they can.

      There should be a minimum income for all, with no means testing, so if couples want to live together and one or both manage to find some work, they should not be punished or criminalised for this.

      Individuals and couples should not have to fear getting a job because it means losing some or all of their benefits, leaving them worse off, especially if on a low or zero hours contract or casual work. The effect of this is that people are discouraged from work and discouraged from building stable family lives.

    96. Golfnut says:

      Who gives a f##k about the English navy.

      Scotland should, We should be interested, because its our money as well as theirs that’s being used. Because we will be entitled to forces assets or the financial equivalent once this union is binned. We need to be interested because we will have to create a defence force.

      Thanks for the info Yesindyref2

    97. Lenny Hartley says:

      Collie my Border Collie is smarter than you, he is also obedient if you are like the rest of the breed bugger off back from where you came from, there’s a good boy.

    98. Valerie says:

      @Golfnut

      I agree with that. Definitely think it’s worth keeping a weather eye on how the UK is tooling up. Always worries me as to where, and to what end this military gear is being deployed.

      I think in common with many, I want nukes out, and an appropriate military presence that patrols, and is akin to the Irish peacekeeping role, helping in war torn areas to give aid.

      As you say, we also contribute.

    99. yesindyref2 says:

      OT – defence
      Thanks for all the comments, and I agree. Even to considering England, or the rUK, or whatever’s left of it after Brexit, as a potential threat over the next 50 years. The UK has a defence spending strategy over 50 years, it’s incomplete as they’re only now (blind ignorance) considering gloabl warming and the opening up of the Arctic and its resources.

      They would also have to consider a potential threat from iScotland on its borders, or from the point of view of weakening their defences. And iScotland would have to also consider composing our forces to be ready for any threat, or even some breakdown in the society of our next door neighbour over the next 50 years, riots, disorder, looting.

      I was criticised in The National last year I think, as a “warmonger” by a fellow Indy supporter, and it did make me think. I’d already considered dual purpose implicitly, but have put more effort into making it clear. But also the humanitarian purpose affects and should affect, the composition of forces, perhaps not including the air force though I guess in a warzone it could provide defence.

      One of the things about armed forces is you get a well trained, well-disciplined, well equipped and motivated – and paid – body of men and women, used to acting as teams. And that is bound to be useful for relief efforts. It maybe leads even to more inclusion from civic society, perhaps even to the extent of offering an alternative to imprisonment for offenders. I’d like to see an informal TA, where you can just turn up and get some training for a bit of a laugh – and exercise.

      Anyway, a prime purpose is that for Indy Ref 2, nobody, even outside impartial anlaysts, can criticise iScotland’s capability for defence of our realm 🙂

    100. Andy-B says:

      I don’t buy it Dugdale knew what she was getting into when her party slithered into bed with the Tories.

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh yeah, I forgot. The ScotGov’s detailed paper was surprisingly and satisfyingly similar to my ideas, which I think means two sources arriving at similar compositions (navy and air force). But ScotGov’s was written in 2013, when the carriers were considered to be a waste of money but have since started being considered as immensely powerful strike groups, which changes the world balance a little.

      And the F35 / F35-B which I thought was a waste of space as did many, has really matured into being a leading fighter, and is changing the composition of maritime strategies worldwide as well. The ScotGov 2013 defence paper would need to be updated with these changes.

    102. Golfnut says:

      @yesindyref2.

      Spot on.

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      @Golfnut
      The QE is a carrier and takes aircraft. Kind of duh. What really impressed me, surprisingly for a defence buff, and got me thinking was this (I saw it earlier than this article):

      https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/aca-detail-hms-queen-elizabeth-converts-seawater-fresh-water/

      To ensure the crew has a supply of fresh water while at sea, a £1 million reverse osmosis system draws in sea water and produces 540 tonnes of fresh water a day

      That includes having showers, cooking, washing dishes, clothes the lot. Take nearly half that even and run dirty and it leaves 300 tonnes a day spare.

      300 tonnes = 300,000 Kg = 300,000 litres, at 2 litres a day for drinking water = 150,000 people in a hurricane / tornado / earthquake / tsunami, where water gets dirty and causes cholera, all the other nasty things. All for just £1 million, and somewhere to put it, power it, carry it – and distribute it.

      That, to me, is massive.

    104. Ken500 says:

      The Tories (ConDems) have cut £3Billion a year from welfare since 2015. Intended £3Billion a year cut for 6 years, They are sanctioning and starving people. They are despicable. Heartless coarse swines. Denying people their dignity.

      Frank Field now objects, what a total hypocrite. . He voted with the Tories for these cuts. Made speeches agreeing with them, He campaigned out of the EU, He got de-selected So now he has changed his tune. What a hypocrite. Lower than the low most of them should be in jail. They are just wicked. There was not need for any of this,

      2015/16 £533Billion was raised in taxes in the UK, more in Scotland pro rata. The Westminster unionists can borrow what they like. Scotland has to pay off the debt even though it was not borrowed or spent in Scotland.

      2016/2017 £628Billlion was raised in tax in the UK, Another £92Billion? Is that included? From other sources EU grants etc) Scotland raise £60Billion. More pro rata. Plus the rest. Does Scotland get the 1/12 of the £92 Billions. £7.5Billion. Doubt. It. There was obsolutely no need for this. The Westminster Gov had more than enough to prevent their.appalling behaviour. It costs more for social services. etc, To try and sort the problems out.

      Brexit is all about Tories evading tax.

    105. Ken500 says:

      That’s weird.

    106. Cubby says:

      Capella@6.47pm

      Ken Burns The Vietnam War Netflix A series of superb films.

      A stunning piece of work. If you want an insight into what some people will endure/give to get rid of colonial invaders then this is the one. It also lays bare the deceit and lying of a number of USA administrations. Thank goodness Harold Wilson kept the UK out of that war. Pity Blair didn’t follow him with regards to Iraq.

      We in Scotland just have to go down the road to a polling station and vote to be a free country. The Vietnamese endured hell for decades to get their freedom. Westminster seems to think it is still an imperial power.

      Why does the UK need two massive aircraft carriers? My answer – travel around the world in style bullying smaller countries. Why the hell can countries not just keep their armed forces out of other countries.

    107. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2 8.02pm

      Must admit, that’s what I’d heard and thought myself. Haven’t kept up to scratch of recent times on the defence angle.

      Thanks for the update. 🙂

    108. Phil says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      16 October, 2018 at 8:18 pm
      Re: defense matters, carriers, etc …

      Yer actual carriers “Project Power”. Your description above suggests that a look-a-like vessel could “Project Relief”.

      Fitted with heli-decks, cargo-lift copters, water supply systems, ATV-cargo vehicles, storage for food, tents, radio coms, what-have-you in the list of immediate disaster relief needs.

      I recall ships converted to eye hospitals, aircraft the same.

      A “Relief Carrier” instead of a “Power Projector” with multi-national funding may be a useful tool when/where ever needed.

    109. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 16 October, 2018 at 6:47 pm:#

      ” … I know nothing about boats and planes but I do think Scotland needs an army, navy and air force for defence.

      That’s the key. Indeed it is, Capella but aircraft carriers have only one use – as a floating airfield to carry attack aircraft to far off countries in order to attack far off countries the aggressors aircraft cannot easily reach.

      Thing is they are slow compared to aircraft or missiles and by the time the carrier has sailed to the foreign land to attack it the war is over as the enemy launches missiles that not only take out the carriers and their escorts but some will be targeted at the country sending the aircraft carriers towards thmem.

      Thing is these days aircraft carriers are obsolete. Aircraft can fly longer distances now. In the Falkland war old obsolete Vulcan bombers flew to the Falklands and bombed the Argentinian airfields on that airfield.

      Anyway quite simple aircraft carriers are offensive weapon and have no defensive use.

    110. Ken500 says:

      Did Dugdale write it in the Oress? Unbelievable. She caused it. Her and the unionist Parties. All in it it together. They should be apologising. Lie, after lie, after lie.

      Do all these people who vote Labour, Tories and LibDem but support Independence not realise they are part of the problem. They are cutting off their nose to spite their face. The LibDems are starting to send out their excessive pamphlets again.

      The unionist Parties are totally against Independence for Scotland. They will do anything against it and try to stop it. Ruin Scotland’s economy. They lie, cheat and refuse to negotiate. The VOW They takes black funding. Break electoral Laws. They behave criminally and illegal. Anyone who voted or supports them will never get Independence if the unionists they have their way, Dugdale even illegally told her Party members to vote Tory,

      They should be voting SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. If they support it. Or are they cardboard supporters,. Step out of the darkness and into the light.Thry know you want to. How can people be supporting Parties that do not want Independence in any shape or form. If they support it. If they are supporting or members of unionists Parties. It does not make sense. Surely they realise.

      The Tories and unionists have been warned for years not to bring these changes in. They all supported it. It is just shameful. The harm it would do. They gave the wealthiest tax breaks and attacked the rights and funding of the vulnerable. What a way to carry on.

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      OT and NOT connected with anything else in this thread.

      Personal abuse against us pro-Indy posters in the MSM is increasing, including mysoginistic, sexist and even homophobic attacks where relevant, and we’re being told to “go away”. I think we’re also being followed with attacks in friendly forums, which may be differently slanted.

      For anyone else in that position, this is GOOD NEWS as it shows the panic in the breasties of the Unionist beasties. Keep the head up, keep polite and reasonable, and keep right on to the end of the road.

      Which won’t be long now.

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, wrong thread 😳

    113. Welsh Sion says:

      Dudfail strikes again!

    114. yesindyref2 says:

      @Phil
      Indeed it could. My preference is dual purpose, but it all depends on the policitians of an Indy Scotland, which could in terms of Government, be way different from the UK “model”.

    115. Ken500 says:

      The SNP want to get rid of Trident and base a Nsvy at Faslane. They want to cut half a Billion from the military budget. They could cut poverty. Scotland does not even have vessels to patrol iit’s shores. Trawlers have to give warnings of anything untoward.

      Scotland could be building patrol boats, supply boats, trawlers. ferries and liners. Norway does. A hundred boats a year.

      Hammond as Defence minister sneered at the idea of Scotland being Independent and having a Navy. He sat and smirked during a Parliamentsry committee discussing Indy. It was shown on the Parliamentary Channel . First he said, ‘It would take three years to remove Trident and cost £9Billion a year. Bargain.He said, ‘Scotland should pay’. After they dumped them in Scotland and left the rotten hulks. Subsequently he said he did not know.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ken500
      I think it was 30 years Hammond said at first, in the end he implicitly accepted 10 years by saying it would take at least 10 years. Probably after Chalmers (respected RUSI defence analyst) came around to less than £10 billion total and a way shorter timescale), which was in his August 2014 paper.

      His humour was good though “1/6th of a carrier. 1/2 a destoryer, 1/2 a sub, 1 frigate”. Once I stopped choking and posting the real (sensibly negotiated by value) share of assets, I had to laugh 🙂

    117. North chiel says:

      Carry on Indyref2 with excellent defence postings , as of course pre referendum the defence scare stories will be in the vanguard of BT2 . “ the Russians , N.Koreans etc etc are coming” .your claymores are obsolete etc .
      Seriously, we need a credible strategy. Perhaps we should laise with say Norway and other Northern neighbours.

    118. Ken500 says:

      EU countries share Defences. It cuts cost. The US/UK start illegal wars. Costing £Billions and causing the worse migration crisis since 11WW. The EU/countries have to try and clear up the mess. The complete and utter scandal. The UK/US have caused a shambles. Total havoc. Millions protested the illegal wars. They were just ignored.

      The US had to give Vietnam huge amounts of compensation. To try and rebuild their country. It is a beautiful place. They people are very amiable. It is very interesting. There is still poverty but it improving.. Ho Che Min City. It has a French influence. People used to speak French.

    119. yesindyref2 says:

      @North chiel
      The SNP and the White Paper were actually fine, though a bit stuck because they couldn’t of course specify the exact negotiated split of assets, so had to take a bit of a guess. There wasn’t really any serious criticism from the Unionist camp apart from “economy of scale”, to which the answer I guess is, look at what Denmark and as you say. Norway have done.

      It’s funny, one of the informed criticims was of the Danish frigates we could copy or have similar: “not as good as ours”. Now a main contender for the T31 is based on the Iver Huitfeldt – a well-respected Danish frigate. Ho hum!

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Royal_Danish_Navy_ships

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iver_Huitfeldt-class_frigate

    120. Ken500 says:

      @ Hammond said it would take three years and £9Billion a year. (Less than is spent on them?) He said Scotland should pay for it. It was on the Parliamentary Channel. Watched it.
      Subsequently he just havered. Nuclear was removed in 1992 from 20 mins from London.. There were protested. Greenham Common. There are still protesters based there?

      That McVey is a disgusting person.

    121. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      This debate is bit odd. We own about 9% of the UK’s defence force and that will be factored into any negotiations on shared assets as we negotiate our independence settlement. We had a defence expert to talk to us in Dunoon. He more or less said we don’t actually want any of the UKs naval or air defence as it is out of date and shite but our share can be used as bargaining in other areas. He referenced the Norway naval presence as a good example. Over forty armed vessels in its waters,most of them small and fast and all built in Norway.

    122. MJT says:

      I was hearing that the foodbank I used to volunteer at is regularly giving out over 100 food parcels in an afternoon. When i was volunteering there three years ago it was around 60 food parcels.

      I hear that in work poverty is the thing now and that having a food bank that can open outside of normal work hours is needed so people who have jobs but are still in poverty can get food parcels.

      I also hear that an extra afternoon might be added, to meet increased demand.

      If 100,000 people posted 25 leaflets, we might be able to reach the whole country in a single day. I wonder what would go on the leaflet. We can still march too.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      @DMH
      Indeed, but if it goes to a share of assets, we’d have no choice but take existing military assets, we’d not be able to insist the rUK give us money (or money off any debt) instead. On the other hand if the rUK wants to be the Continuing UK we don’t need to take a share of debt either, it’s optional accord the Vienna Convention on Succession of State Assets (feeling lazy so I can’t be bothered looking up the real name!).

      Which means we’d get a bare squadron of very good but expensive to run Typhoons for instance, rather than be able to have 2 full squadrons of perfectly good Gripen C/Ds. Same for other hardware.

      Basically we don’t know what the result of negotiations is, so all we can do is a provisional plan, but with a strategy to fill the gaps, and replace UK inherited assets over time as they run out of life.

      Anyway, I’m off to youtube, feel a little drained for some odd reason.

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, Awesome Dance Mix, always brings a smile to my face and a tap to the feet.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV1eKphHFjY

    125. cirsium says:

      @indyref, 5.49 re your post on defence, an independent Scotland would not be in the business of invading other countries or stealing their resources so why would we need an aircraft carrier for force projection? Anyway, with the developments in missile technology, is an aircraft carrier now not just a conveniently oversized naval target?

      Scotland will need some air defences but the F35? Did you see the reports about the grounding of the F35s? For example, https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201810121068841365-F35-Fatally-Flawed-Production-Battlefield/ Would it not be better to buy reliable, battle-field tested aircraft like the Sukhoi SU-35?

      “There’s a little speculation this will be good to counter the threat from the Russians.” Is this “threat” not from the same people who gave us the Iraq war and the mythical WMD?

    126. yesindyref2 says:

      @cirsium
      The Sukhoi is ground only, and personally I’d prefer to go for the Gripen C/D. It’s fast, cheap, and upgraded to take the Meteor missile, same as the Typhoon, electronics from Edinburgh. They’re £2 million a shot but you’d only expect to use the odd one for testing! Over the Horizon, range over 100 km at Mach 4. Basically all air defence is a deterrent, you hope never to use it in anger. It’s a personaly choice mind, but Sweden are in theory neutral though also arming up because of the Russian “threat”. They’ve got apaprently 3 or 400 of them kicking around, and the new version E/F is booked up to the end of the 2020s. Perfect for our needs, planned upgrade to the E/F in the 30s.

      Yes, the aircraft carrier angle is moot, but to operate marines we’d need an amphib support ship, these as well as carrying amphibs and troops, usually take helicopters, have a fair size deck and lifts. Like Albion and Bulwark. So all it needs is to have them designed to take the F35-B, and there isn’t really anything like that VSTOL available, the Harrier 2 stopped I think 13 years ago.

      The F35-B comes with some faults, but even end of run aircraft have faults which need repair. For instance, 5 of the UK’s 16 F35-B are getting new tubes because of a faulty batch. With that capability Scotland could mount a marines operation virtually without other countries support.

      Why? Small countries need shelter, from groups or bigger countries, which means they come to our aid – and we go too theirs. NATO or similar. Which means we need an offensive force, even just for that. Such a self-supporting marines force, with a couple of supporting (probably anti-sub capable e.g. carrying Merlins) frigates with towed arrays, appropriate for a maritime nation, would do that job.

      Hope this makes sense, halfway through starting a job 🙂



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