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Wings Over Scotland

The good, the bad and the other one

Posted on October 13, 2018 by

(We apologise for the late arrival of this week’s toon, due to MI5 on the line, probably.)

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    672 to “The good, the bad and the other one”

    1. yesindyref2 says:

      @CBB 6.52
      I see what you mean there too. Might look at a Brexit poll tables … mmm, no sigificant difference when don’t knows are removed, but 3.9% male don’t knows compared to 12.7% female, that is very significant.

      Anyway, tea time 🙂

    2. mr thms says:

      It won’t just be ‘trade’ negotiations being discussed after the UK leaves all of its EU treaties (and other treaties).

      UK and devolved governments have spent two years drafting legislation to incorporate EU law into UK (and English), Scots (pending a Supreme Court decision, and Welsh law (Yes, Wales has its own EU Continuity Act).

      It would need a change to the constitution of the UK, or another vote on independence, but this scenario makes it easier for Scotland to apply to rejoin the EU under Article 50, part 5.

    3. call me dave says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Aye I’ve heard that one too…Anyhoo! 🙂

      As long as Nicola is one of them I’m OK with that.

      Googled mine since posting: King James V death bed thing?


      You keep posting your stuff, there’s plenty of folk who read them but I tend, sometimes, to glaze over a bit when it gets too deep.

      Now Rock’s are easier to digest… 🙂

    4. Bob Mack says:

      Did anyone catch Theresa May saying the vote would be held on 27th Nov? That is the date the EU Court of justice was due to hear the case on article 50 and the possibility of revoking it.

    5. Dan Huil says:

      @Bob Mack 7:17pm

      Here’s Joanna Cherry asking:

    6. Petra says:

      This is what we can look forward to ……. fracking ……. if we don’t get out of this so-called Union.


      The National: ‘New study reveals surge in independence support among young women’.

    7. Nana says:

      @Bob Mack

      Today I asked @theresa_may if she wants the #meaningfulvote on 27 Nov, the same date as #ECJ hears Scottish case on whether Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked, because she’s afraid of MPs knowing the answer to that question before they vote.


    8. Tackety Beets says:

      Ken500 @ 10.31.

      My Great gandfathers & both grandfathers attended 1358 giving me some limited knowledge.

      Firstly Free Masons are NOT a secret society, there are plenty books to read on the subject.
      They are a Society Of Secrets.
      Catholics are banned by the Pope from attending see Wiki.
      A persons religion takes no part in selection/aceeptance.
      My understanding is that the main criteria is to be of a nature that would not bring the “craft into disrepute”

      Google Grand Lodge, home page & scroll down to Freemasonry and Religion it clearly states their position is neutral, likewise on Politics. Both are clearly for the individual. They do not discriminate between any of the things you mention.

      I have no knowledge on the female side except that they have the equivalent & Eastern Star etc

      Its not for me to defend them, but I feel your post DOES NOT reflect reality.
      My understanding is that they do a lot of other charitable stuff too.

      Sandy @ 3.07

      I agree Sandy and I bet there will be Masons who are Wingers and deserve to be represented in the true light. As far as I’m concerned they are welcome here, as they are in communities around Scotland.

    9. jfngw says:

      Reporting Scotland shoe in question about indyref from the FM speech ,no other questions mentioned. This was merely a mechanism so they could then have a Conservative on air talking about an indyref. Last word given to the Conservative about indyref from a speech that at no point mentioned an indyref as far as I’m aware.

    10. Boudicca says:

      Yes Bob Mack, I heard that too. TM waffled over that as usual.

      When the SNP guy was speaking, all the MPs talked over him so you couldn’t hear. The speaker eventually told them to can it at the behest of gestures from the other SNP mps, but they soon started again and drowned him out. Silent of course to lister. To Bono and the rest. Disgraceful. I am so angry.

    11. Boudicca says:

      Oooops that should read Bojo not Bono, damn predictive text. Although…….

    12. Bobp says:

      Boudicca , disgraceful? No. But expected yes. These scum have no respect for Scotland, its people, or its politicians. To them we are second class. Time now overdue to get rid of these fcuking vampires sucking our nations and our peoples lifeblood away.

    13. CameronB Brodie says:

      call me dave
      “Now Rock’s are easier to digest… ?”

      That takes some gall. 🙂

    14. galamcennalath says:

      “[May] she faulted the EU for insisting on a “backstop to the backstop — effectively an insurance policy for the insurance policy” that would keep Northern Ireland but not the rest of the UK in the bloc’s custom union. “

      THE backstop IS to enable NI to stay in CU only IF the UK leaves. That is it’s sole purpose. That is why Ireland and the EU want it.

      So what is May on about?

      If she sees THE backstop as a 2nd one, what does she see as the 1st backstop?

      This is just an unsophisticated attempt at smoke and broken mirrors IMO.

    15. Gfaetheblock says:

      Mr Peffers @2.54

      You are incorrect on atributing of Scottish exports via English ports, see link and extract from Scot gov below. GERS is quite clear in how these are attributed.

      Are Scottish goods which are exported via ports from the rest of the UK counted as international Scottish exports?

      Yes. The ESS publication measures the destination of goods exported from Scotland regardless of the port from which they leave the UK.

    16. Iain mhor says:

      I just knew bad news was being buried under the Royal Wean.
      Ochone Ochone for the barley bree! Is it no bad eneuch it cams maistly fae the sassenach the noo!

    17. Iain mhor says:

      @gfaetheblock 8:17pm
      Estimated, best guess, kinda, probabably, should be under normal circumstances etc. is also what the relevant documentation says.

      “Scotch Whisky exports to the rest of the UK are estimated based on GCS responses, as HMRC do not collect information on trade within the UK”

      “While undoubtedly some exports to the rest of the UK will be re-exported, including as part of other products, it is not possible to say exactly what this proportion is”

      Continues ad- infinitum
      Blah de blah de blah.

    18. Tinto Chiel says:

      O/T but a long, old thread so bear with me.

      Seems England are 0-3 up at H/T in Spain. Cue premature ejaculations on-line ablaw the dyke re “Football’s coming home” (I shit you not).

      However, I humbly submit:

      Ya bass…..

    19. Rock says:

      No one at Westminster gives a damn about what Nicola says, except the imponent SNP MPs who have achieved ZERO for Scotland.

      Mark my words – Nicola is not going to call an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed and Scotland is at the mercy of Westminster.

      Challenge to the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here:

      With the honourable exception of Hamish100, does a single one of you have the guts to go on the record and state that there will definitely be an independence referendum before Brexit has been completed?

      Robert Peffers?

      Liz g?


      Dave McEwan Hill?



      Brian Doonthetoon?

      Thought not.


    20. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Gfaetheblock @ 8.17pm

      To quote from the official Scottish Government website:

      “The aim of GERS is to enhance public understanding of fiscal issues in Scotland. The primary objective is to estimate a set of public sector accounts for Scotland through detailed analysis of official UK and Scottish Government finance statistics

      “GERS estimates the contribution of revenue raised in Scotland toward the goods and services provided for the benefit of the people of Scotland. The report is designed to allow users to understand and analyse Scotland’s fiscal position under different scenarios.

      You may notice, I have twice highlighted, GERS is based on ESTIMATES, and, as we all know – estimates are not actual certified figures.

    21. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Oh Rock

      You are terrible Muriel!

    22. Pete says:

      Sandy/Tackett beets
      Regarding the Masons, they pop up in some unlikely places.
      Was in Havana, Cuba about 10 plus years ago where I met a Swiss professor from Zurich who was a Grand Master and was visiting Cuba to meet with the Castros who were all masons.
      If you look at the fantastic buildings in Havana, albeit in a ruinous condition, you will see lots of Masonic signs on the walls, namely compasses etc.
      On the home front, when my father died, my mother was visited by an almoner who offered to assist in putting me through university if we were short of cash.
      I hold the organisation in the highest esteem.
      They are unfairly vilified.

    23. Gfaetheblock says:

      Iain moor ar 8.34

      Mr Peffers was referring to exports external to the uk, rather than internal to the uk. The treatment of external to the uk exports is quite clear in the Scot gov doc.

    24. CameronB Brodie says:

      OK, I’ve gone the full critical dialogical feminist perspective on this one.

      Weaponising feminism in the Brexit debate: women’s organisations and the need for nuance

      Brexit will not necessarily dismantle women’s rights, says Alice Chilcott. It does represent a threat to women’s groups that get funding and shared expertise from the EU. Unfortunately, a lack of nuance – on both sides of the Brexit debate – makes it hard to move beyond the ‘low politics’ of emotional appeals.

      Just before the referendum, the Mirror and the International Business Times both ran a piece by Suzanne Evans of the UK Independence Party blaming immigrant mothers for depriving British women of ‘a safe place to give birth’. In the IBT version, Evans stated that ‘half of all maternity units in the UK turned away women in labour’ in ‘just one of the horrific downsides for women of Britain of being a member of the EU’. In fact, this represents just one example of many rather cynical attempts to weaponise women’s rights in the Brexit discussions….

      Women, equality and the UK’s EU referendum: locating the gender politics of Brexit in relation to the neoliberalising state


      This paper uses a feminist state-theoretical approach to explore the development of Brexit and argues that the UK’s EU referendum and its aftermath reflect a gendered politics embedded within the ongoing neoliberal restructuring of the state. Directing attention to the struggle to protect women’s interests, maintain equality strategies, and more generally infuse a gender dimension in political discussions, the paper emphasizes the risks of Brexit for women and gender equality. It concludes by asking how at the current conjecture – when European regulation on gender equality is being framed as ‘stifling’ economic growth – we can build up a fairer and more equal United Kingdom.

      KEYWORDS: Austerity, Brexit, Feminism, Gender Equality, State Theory, Women’s Rights

      Brexit as a scandal: gender and global trumpism


      ‘Brexit’ was a watershed moment. It has made visible the major faultlines and fissures that underlie the so-called ‘United Kingdom’ (UK) and our increasingly globalized world. But the precise nature of those faultlines and fissures requires multiple strands of critical analysis and interpretation. To date, most analyses have highlighted the socio-economic class and immigration or rather race/empire reasons for the Brexit vote neglecting their gendered dimensions. Building on the framework developed in Scandalous Economics we show how gendered analysis both illuminates and complicates dominant explanations of the Brexit vote.

      We interrogate the agents of Brexit – highlighting the paradox of men’s dominance of the Brexit campaign and women’s rise in the political crisis that ensued after the referendum vote. We also examine the intersectional inequalities that have made Brexit conceivable from a gender perspective, and its likely impact given the austerity policies and global chains of migrant labour upon which the UK economy depends. We conclude that critical feminist political economy broadens as well as globalizes our analysis of international political economy. Moreover, this analysis of Brexit is a lens which can be used to interrogate the spread of populism aka ‘Trumpism’ elsewhere.

      KEYWORDS: White male elite (Bullington Club), social reproduction, scandal and scandalous, intersectional inequality, glass cliff, women’s leadership

    25. cirsium says:

      @Petra, 15 October 7.23pm

      It’s not just the geology. It is also the disposal of the toxic water. The US has a big problem

    26. Bob Mack says:

      Eminent professor just making the valid point that as soon as the UK signs any trade deal with any partner outside the EU then border controls will become immediately effective in Ireland to control and preserve regulations.

      In effect no matter which way it goes a hard border is inevitable

    27. Tinto Chiel says:

      @self 8.36: forgot to archive.

      Have applied bastinado to feet.


    28. Bob Mack says:


      Only an idiot answers his own questions then congratulates himself on being right.

    29. Bob Mack says:


      Then GERS should show the total of exports for oil and gas which is almost exclusively a product from Scotland. No ? Funny that.

    30. Reluctant Nationalalist says:

      @ RJS

      Brodie Boy’s prolific postings are hardly ever to the point, even when tenuously grasping to be related to the subject at hand (‘Re:’ smh), and are never, ever readable in any good way. A jumped-up, socially impotent mature student who smugly cyber-swims in the synonym sea of quasi-intellectual psychologese, and who utterly fails to understand reality; or: a total prick who should stick solely to off topic.

    31. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalalis
      We know where you’re coming from though, eh?

    32. Bob Mack says:

      @Reluctant Nationalist,

      Depends I suppose on your ability to understand human behaviour. Everything he posts is actually text book stuff from which you could learn if you had the inclination or patience. I like it.

    33. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalalist
      How would you approach protecting the interests of women and gender minorities from the likely harmful impacts of Brexit? Or is that too much of a wanky, intellectual, question for you. Are you sure this blog is your natural habitat?

      We know where you are coming from bud.

      Anti-feminism and anti-gender far right politics in Europe and beyond

      The rise, over the last two decades, of the neo-nationalist, populist right is now a well-established fact across the political landscape. But the precise permutations taken and modes of organisation and affiliations on specific issues such as anti-LGBTQ rights, which many of these groups have pursued, is often less well-known. Two recent books, one by Bruno Perreau titled Queer Theory: The French Response (2016 Stanford) and the other edited by David Paternotte and Roman Kuhar titled Anti-Gender Campaigns in Europe, (Rowman and Littlefield 2017) make significant inroads in filling this gap, each of them focusing on Europe, and in particular on questions of sexuality and gender.

    34. Bob Mack says:

      Imagine posting” who smugly swims in the synonym sea of quasi intellectual Psychologese” and calling somebody else jumped up. Ha ha ha

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      Bob Mack
      I’d sussed the prick months ago. 😉

    36. Nagger says:

      Bob, I’m a fairly thick cunt, but I still managed to get into a decent uni at 17 y/o and ended up getting an MA in Psychology, so fuck off with the ‘inclination’ comment you wee hack. I’m fairly confident this…politically correct slug who merely regurgitates theory that happens to arouse his loins (for you can bet that there’s stuff out there that doesn’t), can’t teach me anything meaningful. Glad you like it, though.

      He stinks the comment section up, but I don’t suppose that matters as Stuart clearly gave up on it a long time ago.

    37. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Bob, I’m a fairly thick cunt, but I still managed to get into a decent uni at 17 y/o and ended up getting an MA in Psychology, so fuck off with the ‘inclination’ comment you wee hack. I’m fairly confident this…politically correct slug who merely regurgitates theory that happens to arouse his loins (for you can bet that there’s stuff out there that doesn’t), can’t teach me anything meaningful. Glad you like it, though.

      He stinks the comment section up, but I don’t suppose that matters as Stuart clearly gave up on it a long time ago.

    38. Ken500 says:

      @ Always appeciate your posts

      Thanks CameronB Brodie. Alway informational

      Hope your health is stable. The daily struggles. Take care.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      Some Psychologist. Studied human behaviour but can’t allow yourself to skip over what you don’t like? Remedial classes for you buddy.

    40. Ken500 says:

      Ignore the ignorant low life

    41. Thepnr says:

      Reading a few articles on the Herald there, not mcuh of interest really in the articles themselves but the comments below.

      They are now as bad as the Scotsman, it only takes a handful of uber-yoons to get a grip and the end result is a disaster zone. That’s a pity, pre Indyref there was some fairly decent discourse could be had there between both groups of supporters but certainly not now despite the valiant efforts of a few who try to keep things reasonable.

      The likely result is just like the Scotsman and all pro-independence arguments will disappear, and those people become even less likely to read the paper online. Can’t help but suspect that it’s all the work of the green ink brigade from SIU.

      The crazy thing about though is that they are adding to the woes of both papers falling readership and engagement by those not really caught up in either side and ultimately the rabid ultra-yoons will destroy the papers that support them.

    42. CameronB Brodie says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      Your David Torrance and I claim my £5 book token. Fuck off you complete fannybawz.

    43. CameronB Brodie says:

      Cheers Ken500, I can’t complain. Always try to. 😉

    44. Gfaetheblock says:

      Bob Mack @9.07

      Whataboutery much?

      I was correcting mr peffers on spirits.

    45. Tinto Chiel says:

      @RN: I tuned out long ago after the “Reluctant” bit in your handle.

      Your willy-waggling bad language suggests you have no argument to lose.

      I rarely understand Cameron B but I can be taught 😛

    46. Bob Mack says:

      Heinz Kohut is a good read for those obsessed with self.

    47. call me dave says:


      UK economy heading for worst year since crash, say economists.

      Forecasting body blames growing risks of no-deal Brexit as it downgrades estimate

    48. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Bob, Fruity choice of words was intentional, I’ll leave you to struggle to find out why
      Brodie, you’re a piece of shite, and I don’t know how you can look yourself in the eye.

    49. stu mac says:

      @Thepnr says:
      15 October, 2018 at 9:44 pm
      Reading a few articles on the Herald there, not mcuh of interest really in the articles themselves but the comments below.

      They are now as bad as the Scotsman, it only takes a handful of uber-yoons to get a grip and the end result is a disaster zone.

      There was a time a good while back when regardless of the article, some good discourse was possible in the Herald. That was because the comments were properly moderated. It didn’t mean there was lots of pro-Indy, although there was some, but a variety of opinions were there and there were few outrageous ones. Even handed and fair, well relatively.

      Then that stopped. Cut backs perhaps? Moderation now seems non existent in papers like the Scotsman and Herald and really vile stuff gets posted. Gave up on both and sounds from what you say that they aren’t attempting to fix it.

    50. CameronB Brodie says:

      Tinto Chiel
      I’m aware that ‘some’ of the stuff I post is ‘taxing’ but I can’t think of a better way to communicate complex concepts relevant to the debate. I do find it rather revealing that an MA in Psychology is hostile to post-modern critical social theory and shit. Perhaps I’m just reading too much into things? 😉

    51. Liz g says:

      Reluctant Nationalist
      He could sure as shit could teach you some manners!
      But mibbi you should just stick to the Revs writing.. especially the bit about playing the ball and not the man.
      I’d be happy to explain what that means and I’ll use wee words if You’re struggling?

    52. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Fuckin scum.

    53. Iain mhor says:

      A brave try.

      “ESS is designated as a National Statistics product”
      Statistics Product, statistically, based on data, which is an estimate
      “ESS is the only official source of Scottish exports which includes ESTIMATES for both goods and services.
      ONS also recently produced EXPERIMENTAL statistics ESTIMATING international exports of services from Scotland, based on the existing UK ITIS publication. Their figures for Scotland were different from those produced in ESS due to differences in methodology and data sources”

      “Are Scottish goods which are exported via ports from the rest of the UK counted as international Scottish exports?”
      Yes. The ESS publication measures the destination of goods exported from Scotland regardless of the port from which they leave the UK”.

      “For some companies operating in Scotland, their products are feeding into a global supply chain. For example, they may sell a good to a company in England who subsequently incorporate it into a product which is exported internationally. In such a situation, only the sale from the Scottish company to their customer in England would be counted as a Scottish export. It would be recorded as a Scottish export to the rest of the UK”

      I think we already covered tje following however:
      “While undoubtedly some exports to the rest of the UK will be re-exported, including as part of other products, it is not possible to say exactly what this proportion is”

      Statistically, estimated, best guess, probably, under normal circumstamces, within the parameters we have arbitarily assigned based on things it is not possible to say…
      zzzzzz rinse and repeat.

    54. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ CBB: quite.

      I blame my mother for not eating enough herring.

      Keep on trucking, mon vieux.

    55. Bob Mack says:

      Trans ? Or personality disorder? Who knows or cares?

      No more replies. You have become what you hate.

    56. CameronB Brodie says:

      Oh, there goes the dumy. Ha ha ha ha ha.

    57. Thepnr says:

      @stu mac

      I reckon it’s beyond fixing and the comments would be as well to be shut down. Maybe in the not too distant future all newspapers will close comments. The Guardian already heading that way and as for the BBC. Well you know there view on allowing comments on Scottish stories, they don’t.

      Maybe that’s the aim of the uber-yoons, to get comments shut down so as pro-indy voices don’t get heard. Who knows, but if it is then they’re too late. Our voices are being heard alright and in more important places than newspaper btl comments.

    58. ElGordo says:

      ” Reluctant Nationalist says:
      15 October, 2018 at 9:53 pm

      Bob, Fruity choice of words was intentional, I’ll leave you to struggle to find out why
      Brodie, you’re a piece of shite, and I don’t know how you can look yourself in the eye.”

      Interesting choice of words and phrasing.. Which particular type of nationalism are you reluctant on?

    59. Ken500 says:

      Masons are in a secret society. They meet is secret. Anyone can’t join. People are invited to join. They can Black ball who they like for any reason. Membership is not free and open to all. It is unequal. Women can’t join on equal status. They are racist, sexist, and bigoted,

      They should not be allowed to stand as candidates. Candidates have to declare a declaration they are fit people to be representative, Honourable people who do not lie. They lie. They are not representational of the population because of their status of membership. They lie. They are part of a secret society,, unequal. People are not allowed to join. They black ball people without reason, Women don’t have equal status. They are racist and bigoted, Blsckballing people with no reason.

      They support the British State to whom they give allegiance. The Royals. They are the Head. The order of the Garter.

      If they want to support Independence. They are members in an Organisation that does not. An Organisation which is against Independence in any way, shape or form. People who support Independence are out of place in the Lodge. They are acting against own best interest and remaining in an association, which is actively totally against Independence.

    60. Gfaetheblock says:

      Iain mhor,

      This getting a bit odd. The original post was about whisky and gin exports from Scotland, not products that are part of supply chain, unless there is a market in English blends that I am not aware off. It was Scottish wisky, going via an English port, not being classed as a Scottish export. It is a lie.

    61. Bob Mack says:


      Therefore the amount of whisky and the money paid for the infrastructure i.e. docking, transport admin ,to enable it’s export all gets attributed to Scotland? Amazing, English ports giving Scotland credit for their export business. What was I thinking?

    62. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 15 October, 2018 at 8:17 pm:

      ” … Are Scottish goods which are exported via ports from the rest of the UK counted as international Scottish exports?”

      Well if that is the case they have changed their methods. However that extract and answer you quote doesn’t make sense.

      This bit – “Are Scottish goods which are exported via ports from the rest of the UK counted as international Scottish exports?

      In the first place to make any sense it should use either, “vie”, or, “from”, but not use both. In the second place why use the term, “International”? All exports are international that’s why they call them exports.

      If indeed that is an official answer it still doesn’t excuse the Westminster thieves and here is why.

      Lets just consider oil and gas. Oil and gas are taxed at the wellhead by the Barrel and by equivalents for gas. Thus every unit is taxed directly and fed into Her Majesty’s Treasury. It doesn’t come to Scotland. Then they tax each litre of refined fuel as it leaves the refinery and for every litre of fuel sold by UK filling stations they Charge Road Fuel Duty & VAT.

      Same goes for Whisky, Gin and other spirits all have alcohol duty and VAT added. That is after they have already been taxed when leaving the bonds.

      I’m still not convinced that Scottish Exports, for example the Scotch exported by those companies registered with head offices in London and exported from Heathrow and through the Chunnel go onwards as Scottish Exports especially if bottled in England.

      Likewise, farm & Fishing produce landed in Scotland but processed and packaged in England. Once again, the tax and duty goes to Westminster.

      None of it accrues to a Scots Treasury because there is no Scots treasury. It’s a fiddle and it always has been.

      Then Westminster has the hard neck to claim it subsidises Scots with English taxpayer’s money. First of all it is UK taxpayer’s money. Yet the Scottish per capita GDP is normally higher than that of England and some are bent enough to think that comparing the whole kingdom of Scotland per capita GDP to the per capita GDP of one English region is a reasonable comparison. As you did when kicking off this argument.

      So even if I am wrong on that one count the overall picture is robbery by Westminster. The fact remains that even without the oil & gas revenues the average Scot pays more per capita into the Westminster Treasury than the average Anglo, or indeed the average UK taxpayer.

      This because the average per capita of Scots is higher than the average per capita of the rest of the UK. So don’t even dream of claiming it is unfair to compare the Kingdom of Scotland to the Kingdom of England, (three countries). When we are regularly regaled with the comparison of the whole of Scotland to just London as you did when kicking of this particular argument.

      The point being you selected probably the most densely populated area of Britain, (and I do not mean the United Kingdom part of Britain), to compare to by far the least populated country & Kingdom in The United Kingdom.

      Comparisons are only valid if you compare like with like – and you did not do so. Hence the present argument.

      You do remember that is why I replied to your comment don’t you?

    63. Kangaroo says:

      NI/RoI Border

      As I understand it, the EU offered NI the ability to stay in the CU and SM in exchange for customs checks in the Irish Sea and the DUP said NO.
      Remember the DUP did not back the GFA either, so presumably they are not too fussed about a return to the troubles.

      Is TM merely using this to get UK wide concessions from the EU?

      I would think a move to offer a border poll would cause the DUP to fold and accept the EU’s offer.

      If I were the EU I would publicly state that a Border poll may be required to move the negotiations along, then do nothing and agree to nothing and let the clock keep ticking. The pressure on the DUP and the Tories would keep ramping up.

    64. Phronesis says:

      We are fortunate to be exempt from this in Scotland. One more reason on a growing list for an autonomous Scotland. The planet is heating up, ecosystems are being destroyed and eventually populations will literally fall into the sea.The time for leadership on alternative energy plans is now.

      ‘Fracking releases large amounts of natural gas – which consists of both CO2 and methane – directly into the atmosphere. In fact, fracking wells leak 40 to 60 per cent more methane than conventional natural gas wells. This happens when water is forced down into a fracking well in order to fracture the rock formations…Fracking is not a clean or green form of energy… Many communities are taking action against fracking in order to protect their water and mitigate climate change impacts’

      ‘We found evidence for negative health effects of in utero exposure to fracking sites within 3 km of a mother’s residence, with the largest health impacts seen for in utero exposure within 1 km of fracking sites. Negative health impacts include a greater incidence of low–birth weight babies as well as significant declines in average birth weight and in several other measures of infant health’

      Currie J, Greenstone M, Meckel K. Hydraulic fracturing and infant health: New evidence from Pennsylvania. Science Advances. 2017;3(12)

      ‘The evidence suggests that presently utilized setbacks may leave the public vulnerable to explosions, radiant heat, toxic gas clouds, and air pollution from hydraulic fracturing activities…Our results suggest that setbacks may not be sufficient to reduce potential threats to human health in areas where hydraulic fracturing occurs’

      Haley M, McCawley M, Epstein AC, Arrington B, Bjerke EF. 2016. Adequacy of current state setbacks for directional high-volume hydraulic fracturing in the Marcellus, Barnett, and Niobrara Shale Plays. Environ Health Perspect 124:1323-1333

      The EU should take a stronger regulatory line & follow Scotland’s lead in putting public and environmental health first. The enthusiasts and profiteers of fracking won’t be living within a 3km radius of a fracking site;

      ‘Member states are cherry picking what they want to apply on the recommendations and not using it as a basis of making their strong regulation for fracking. Some member states made it clear that they cannot afford or are ill-equipped to deal with certain fracking challenges. There is lack of monitoring capacity among MS for different reason including conflicts of interest and corrupt practices.
      The public concerned with fracking activities are consulted only as a formality and not with the expectation of a constructive feedback that can be used in a decision making process of which they are either given short period to review complicated documents. Some states are just transposing the Recommendations in their regulatory framework just to convince the EU Commission that they are complying with the EU law and not taking seriously the impacts of the fracking’

    65. ElGordo says:

      “Reluctant Nationalist says:
      15 October, 2018 at 10:00 pm

      Fuckin scum.”

      He “shall” be fucking scum. . . .

      You can rely on the education, to remember punctuation.

    66. Collie says:

      Royal weddings, Royal babies.

      Brexit must be worse than we thought.

      All good news for Indy of course but for fuck sake, don’t let the English know that.

      It’s oor wee secret.

    67. Gfaetheblock says:

      Bob Mack

      Ports are businesses. They provide a service, which they are paid for. That does not change the attributation of the products that go through them. A German supermarket selling the whisky also has infrastructure, but they are also taking a profit on the transaction, as they are a service provider, not a manufacturer. That whisky is not now German.

      This website is a bit bonkers tonight.

    68. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just ’cause I like to niggle, in a post-colonial, feminist standpoint, sort of way. 😉

      Strands of Feminist Theory


      In the 1970s, many feminists were concerned with developing theory which could help explain women’s oppression and which could indicate how that oppression could be challenged.
      By the second half of the 1980s, many theorists had turned away from the search for over-arching explanations of women’s subordination and were analysing particular issues and problems.
      Sometimes this analysis was aimed at policy-makers and/or activists but sometimes it was mainly intended for an academic audience.
      Feminist research and publication expanded considerably, not least because of the development of Women’s Studies programmes.

      Radical feminism has developed in a number of different directions in the UK since the 1970s. Within this broad strand, there has been more emphasis on differences between men and women and on celebrating the positive aspects of the values and characteristics traditionally associated with women. Some radical feminists have taken Black feminist criticism seriously and incorporated issues of racism, class oppresssion and imperialism into their analysis of patriarchy.

      Contrasting Debates and Perspectives from Second and Third Wave Feminists in Britain: Class, Work and Activism;sequence=1

      The Study of Populist Radical Right Parties: Towards a Fourth Wave


      Since the start of the third wave of populist radical right politics in postwar Europe in the early 1980s, more articles and books have been written on far right parties than on all other party families combined. What are the main insights about the populist radical right that these hundreds of articles and books have provided us and what should future studies of the populist radical right parties focus on? This article critically assesses the progress made in recent research by focusing on four key aspects: scope, data and method, causes, and consequences.

      The main argument is that, although the scope of scholarship has finally moved beyond the usual suspects, meaning that more issues and parties are studied today, theoretical innovation, particularly with regard to explanations of the
      electoral success of populist radical right parties, has been marginal since early 1990s. Moreover, studies of party effects remain limited in number and scope, focusing mainly on immigration policies. Today, we need research which more explicitly acknowledges and theorizes the diversity within the far right party family, and goes beyond the paradigm of the outsider-challenger party.

      Keywords: far right, populism, parties, Europe, new research agenda

    69. Gfaetheblock says:

      Robert peffer.

      Yes, you are wrong. If you do not think it makes sence, you should pick up with the Scottish government.

    70. ElGordo says:

      to be fair tho cam, it is spoiling my lurking, it’s a couple of page downs and then scroll backup and readjusting, much happier just scrolling through and absorbing, as normal

    71. Iain mhor says:

      I’m a wee bit wannert’ the noo. 24 hr int. travelling and nae sleep, I canny mind whit ah’ve posted today, so if anything was bollox apologies. Except anything relating to GERS haha that can be rammed up the hole.
      Oh and I also have qualifications weeping oot ma ringpiece, but I’ll be fucked if ah kin fit a carpet. Though I can weld like a motherfucker. I tend towards Socratic rather than Hegelian dialectic and Spinoza can suck me. I wouldn’t invite Nietzsche to a party, but I bet I could have convinced Albert Camus to stick on a party hat and play twister.

      I tend to like most comments here. Passes the time when “Fallt aus” is on every other bastard board.
      Carry on Mr CBB. & Mr RN do elucidate.

      See that’s just pretentious now eh? I”ve had a wee dram admittedly, jist the wan + nae sleep.
      Actually, now I’m no wanting tae start a rammy but –
      See @Cactus (hello) gauny tell me how ye can text and format sae perfectly when yer intimating yer pished?
      Stoned mibbe. But I’ve had wan drink and nae sleep and this has taen me hauf an hour!
      Ye must be blessed wi powr’s we hae nane o’

    72. Bob Mack says:


      I think you miss the point. Scottish businesses are paying directly or indirectly,English ports to export our goods because Scottish ports have been run down to the extent that they cannot do so.

      Imagine that revenue was accrued here in Scotland instead of Hull or whatever. Even better, imagine how the hinterland around Scottish ports would develop, and all bringing economic benefits. Is that so strange?

    73. yesindyref2 says:

      @Gfae / @Bob Mack

      5. Export of Scotch Whisky in bulk
      As it is illegal to mature Scotch Whisky outside Scotland, Regulation 7 also makes it illegal with immediate effect (as from 23 November 2009) to export any type of Scotch Whisky in an oak or other wooden cask. It is permitted to continue to export Scotch Whisky in bulk using inert containers such as appropriate plastic drums or steel containers.

      5.2 However, Regulation 7 makes it illegal as from 23 November 2012 for Single Malt Scotch Whisky to be exported from Scotland other than in a bottle labelled for retail sale

      So while all single malt whisky has to be bottled in Scotland and hence sales attributed as exports including to the rUK, as far as I can see blendeds can be exported in bulk, therefore with greatly reduced value, to for instance England, further blended and / or bottled there and exported as an export from England at the higher bottled price, and counted as an export from England. Which can then export them abroad.

      I gave up on this years ago, too much work tracking it all down and the trail is perhaps deliberately fudged, but there’s little doubt for me that at least some of the “export to the rUK” is indeed re-exported, hence fudging the figures.

    74. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m sorry mate, I just feel the quickening. 🙂

    75. yesindyref2 says:

      As far as I can see basically, whisky could be blended in Glasgow as in Teachers, sent down in a tanker to England and bottled there, for the full value to be attributed to England even. I’ve no idea though WHERE the dreaded Teachers is bottled 🙂

    76. CameronB Brodie says:

      Iain mhor 😉

    77. sandy says:

      Ken500. @ 10.20pm.

      Had a quick reluctant glance. Utter PISH. (Other posters, excuse language usage)
      Hope your not a member of any committee, Ken.
      OOps, I’ve replied breaking my vow.

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      The actual alcohol duty would in all cases be attributed to Scotland when it was taken out of bond.

      Except for one wee very small minor tiny insignificant problem.

      Whisky can be moved from bonded warehouse to bonded warehouse. THAT I could find no detail on whatsoever. I gave up, more fun watching spiders crawling up the wall and placing bets.

      Oh, and then there’s gin of course almost as big as whisky now in Scotland. There ARE no similar regulations protecting the brand of Scottish or Scotch Gin.

      Unionists hide behind this trail “Scotch Whisky has to be matured in Scotland”. “It has to be bottled in Scotland”. First part true, second part only partly true. They also call it all a myth, even export duty. Not so I think, export duty exists, but it’s 0%.

      We’ll never know the true extent of this until Independent, maybe not even then – spirit can be exported in bulk all over the world, though of course an Independent Scottish Government would be perfectly within its rights to bring un different regulations covering all whisky, and gin if it wanted to. Scotland could get a GI for alll whisky and gin, something the UK might not be interested in doing on our behlaf, even if there was a demand for it (there might not be).

      Which does mean, however, there may not be any reduction in figures at all at the moment. It’s one of life’s mysteries.

    79. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, that was pretty boring.

    80. Sarah says:

      O/T What is an alternative to using Facebook? Someone btl on here mentioned the system they now use instead of Facebook and cited all the advantages of the alternative.

      Would someone be kind enough to remind me of the name?

      Thank you.

    81. Bob Mack says:


      Correct. Over the past few years there are many companies around England developing their own whiskeys ( as they spell it). On websites like Whiskey Exchange they advertise among their products “blended” whiskey which is made from whiskey from around the UK. Undoubtedly Scotch as there are only seven distilleries able to produce whisky in England.

      This would fit in with what you say.

    82. Gfaetheblock says:

      Bob mack,

      Thanks, I did miss your point. Development of a Scottish port suitable for the used of modern super tankers, would be good for income but not actually sure I would want to live near one, nor how economically viable it would be. Can that not happen now though?

    83. CameronB Brodie says:

      Just in case folk think I’m overly confident just because I’ve been posting here for some time, that wouldn’t give the full picture. The thing is, RN is apparently repulsed by educational material recommended by a Planning School approved by the Royal Town Planning Association. A School that was ranked top in the UK, the year I graduated.

      I might be rusty but I like to think I used to have a good nose for the way folk swing.

    84. Iain mhor says:

      @gfaetheblock 10:41pm
      It’s not that odd.
      The presumption is that ESS figures are what is.
      The ESS and others play sweet melodies upon a blue guitar and lull the senses ”

      They said, “You have a blue guitar,
      You do not play things as they are.”
      The man replied, “Things as they are
      Are changed upon the blue guitar.”

      “My heart aches, and a drowsy numbness pains
      My sense, as though of hemlock I had drunk,
      Or emptied some dull opiate to the drains
      One minute past hath the GERS figures been released…
      Was it a vision, or a waking dream?”

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      I spent probably a couple of weeks worth of effort over a month or two trying to track it all down during indy Ref 1, and a couple more full days when the “Export duty is a myth” was being pushed “look the ScotGov say so themselves”. All I did this time was look up the definition, the rest is memory.

      But I doubt a team of 100 researchers over 6 months solid could track it down just using the interent, it would need real world questions which would likely just get the answer “That’s commercially sensitive information”.

      ho hum!

    86. Tackety Beets says:

      Sarah @ 11.24

      I assume you mean MeWe ?
      I have not quite got used to it yet, but intend to keep at it.

      Indy Car Gordon Ross is using it too.

    87. Bob Mack says:


      Supertanker perhaps,but container and freight shipping as well as airport development (Prestwick) most definitely.

      Supertankers already load up at sea and go directly abroad in any event, Creating the infrastructure as in all commerce would be costly but would undoubtedly pay it’s way in job creation and higher capacity in the longer term.

      Nicola has talked about the need to develop our infrastructure in past speeches.

      There are many suitable historic sites which can be redeveloped.

    88. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      CameronB Brodie,

      O/T Well, I seem to have set off some kind of hornets’ nest with my previous comment, even though it was not my intention to offend but rather to assist, for the mutual benefit of us all.

      Surely one crucial lodestone for posting anything on the main thread here is: does it reach out to the casual uncommitted visitor and hopefully bring them a little closer to independence, and conversely does it say nothing that might deter the same?

      I also have my favourite topics about which I could readily discourse at considerable length – maybe we all do – but I am humble enough to understand that they would convince no-one and would merely clog up each thread with isolated non-sequiturs that engender no useful discussion whatever. So I desist. I merely ask you to consider the same.

      Given the small number of degrees of separation between any two topics, one can of course indulge in sophistry to justify any discourse whatever under the sun, but when you get around to “experiential womenhood” (whatever the h*ll that is) and all suchlike exotica, how many casual readers do you think are going to be converted to indy because of it? And how many are instead going to think they have stumbled into pseuds’ corner and depart in haste, never to return?

      Of course, it’s easy enough to skim on by, and I suspect that in fact with such voluminous arcana the vast majority of readers do exactly that, but why should it be necessary to break up interesting and timely discourses in such a disjointed manner? I ask you earnestly, is there not just a little self-indulgence in it?

      I don’t say don’t write this stuff, I merely encourage you to place it in the O/T section, which is precisely and specifically intended for such matters.

      As I already said, when you post comments like the rest of we mere mortals, I typically find them interesting, pertinent and accessible. And long may it be so!

      Horses for courses, my friend.

    89. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      ElGordo, I laughed, but only because I think you know exactly what an ‘expletive attributive’ is.

      Iain Mhor, I think that powr of his is maybe a powdr. Christ I wish I was stoned, then I could nod along to Brodieboi’s posts.

    90. Hamish100 says:

      I think people with MA’s in whatever should express themselves better. It is maybe tiredness mixed in with a babysham or two but it does make WoS less interesting. Any new person looking in probably leave even quicker never to return

      Effen B’s are only funny when Matt McGinn tells the story. Anyone else is just boring and promotes independence not one jot.

      Just my view

    91. ElGordo says:

      ” CameronB Brodie says:
      15 October, 2018 at 11:08 pm

      I’m sorry mate, I just feel the quickening. ?”

      We all do, there can be only one! was just experiencing it a wee bit too much on my page down the last wee while, I get it, the point, but, for the lurkers it could spoil the experience of the debate, the discussion, referencing o/t can be a bit preachy, wings viewed massively, and its a link into the forum, and most will go there once, from whatever side, i like the forum, its real, the reference stuff makes it look a bit loon, i’m just a lurcher, not a contributor, you guys make it, don’t break it

    92. Legerwood says:

      All the posts about whisky, where it is bottled, labelled etc may be academic after Brexit when the brand protection it gets from the EU as do many other identifiably Scottish products.

      I don’t see the UK going to bat to protect it. To the Brexiteers it is a bargaining chip to put into the pot to secure a trade deal…any trade deal.

    93. yesindyref2 says:

      SIC now up to over £24,000 – 80% of the way to its first target to get it started and branded.

      A lot of people have reservations about SIC because it could try to impose a far left agenda on the whole movement which would lose the Ref before it’s even called. I think give it a chance to prove it won’t.

    94. Liz g says:

      Hamish 100 @ 1.50
      Babbysham oan a Monday?
      Tell us … whits life like oan the edge there Hamish?
      And who is Effin Bee?
      Should we friend them on Facebook ?

    95. ElGordo says:

      Beware far left agendas and their state actors.

      Now is not the time 🙂

    96. Iain mhor says:

      @RN 11:50PM
      Hehehe! Now that made me laugh at least 😉

    97. CameronB Brodie says:

      Robert J. Sutherland
      I just thought a gendered and culturally aware insight into the forces that shape Britain’s political economy, might be useful to some.

    98. Dr Jim says:

      Don’t know where Teachers whisky has gone to now but it used to be bottled in Springburn Glasgow just next to Petershill Jrs Football park

      You could smell it from half a mile away when I was a kid

    99. Lenny Hartley says:

      Robert Peffers, oil and gas has not been charged at the wellhead for some considerable time (Petroleum Revenue Tax) PRT was zero rated on 01 Jan 2016 , it only applied to fields that were approved prior to 16th March 1993 . What they are now doing to hide tax revenue from Oil and Gas as well as the Ex Reggio scam is charge Oil And Gas Production Companies 30% Corporation tax instead of standard 20% , of course companies like Shell move their profits to lower tax regimes so their exposure to UK Corporation tax is very low which helps to explain along with ex regio why the UK is reporting tax revenues for oil and gas in the low hundreds of millions whilst The figures for Norway adjusted for same production are in tens of Billions of pounds.
      They are allowing Multinationals to pay little or no tax on Oil and Gas in order to put out Propaganda that the Oil is a declining asset.

    100. Bob Mack says:

      @Cameron Brodie,

      They are politely saying “shut up” Some not so politely

      Goodnight Cameron, time for my bed. I enjoy your stuff.

      Nice to know your welcome eh? Newbies will just love that. Everybody welcome on Wings . Oh my aching ribs.

    101. Bob Mack says:

      @Dr Jim,

      Bottled in Italy I believe.

    102. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      SIC are far-left? Like totalitarian collectivism, that sort of thing?

      Or is it just the smaller RIC under that umbrella, who seem to want a more equitable distribution of spending and wealth, nationalisation of energy and industry, and stricter rules on banking and corporate practice. Y’know, the kind of thing most people want. I would’ve thought that was a vote-winner.

    103. sandy says:

      Robert J. Sutherland @ 11.49pm.

      Well said.

      What annoys me is that although opinions are welcomed & can make for lively & sensible discussion, there are those who ‘opinionate’ then continue to “ram it down your throat”. In other words, that is the only opinion that matters. Extreme bigotry in my book. Rather undemocratic, don’t you think.
      These people know who they are yet they wonder why they are treated with disdain.

    104. ElGordo says:

      ” Reluctant Nationalist says:
      16 October, 2018 at 12:23 am

      SIC are far-left? Like totalitarian collectivism, that sort of thing?

      Or is it just the smaller RIC under that umbrella, who seem to want a more equitable distribution of spending and wealth, nationalisation of energy and industry, and stricter rules on banking and corporate practice. Y’know, the kind of thing most people want. I would’ve thought that was a vote-winner.”

      I imagined you doing backward rolls as your were saying that

    105. ElGordo says:

      ” Reluctant Nationalist says:
      16 October, 2018 at 12:23 am

      SIC are far-left? Like totalitarian collectivism, that sort of thing?

      Or is it just the smaller RIC under that umbrella, who seem to want a more equitable distribution of spending and wealth, nationalisation of energy and industry, and stricter rules on banking and corporate practice. Y’know, the kind of thing most people want. I would’ve thought that was a vote-winner.”

      I thought of you doing backward rolls as your were saying that

    106. ElGordo says:

      ” Reluctant Nationalist says:
      16 October, 2018 at 12:23 am

      SIC are far-left? Like totalitarian collectivism, that sort of thing?

      Or is it just the smaller RIC under that umbrella, who seem to want a more equitable distribution of spending and wealth, nationalisation of energy and industry, and stricter rules on banking and corporate practice. Y’know, the kind of thing most people want. I would’ve thought that was a vote-winner.

      “I pleasured you, while you squeaked it”

    107. Cubby says:

      No one on Wings gives a dam about what Rock says. Rock = boring boring boring British Nationalist troll who just cuts and pastes the same old crap.

    108. Kangaroo says:

      Peter Bell with questions on Scottish Independence Convention

      Could easily be a 5th column with its own political agenda.

    109. yesindyref2 says:

      @Bob Mack
      Yes, follow the whisky trail from Teachers to Allied Distillers to Diageo to Italy. Or maybe not, and how much. I think Teachers may have been a bad example 🙂

    110. Famous15 says:

      Hi Wingers or as some of the trolls sound…whingers,can I tell you that even if Nicola was Saint Theresa’s love child or Alex really was guilty of whatever,I would still support Independence because I was of that obvious opinion before they were born.

      No , I wish Stu would leave Trans and sevco alone but buckeroo (cf) asallgood academicso say
      thatis san ferry anne.

    111. Cubby says:

      I always find it amusing when lying Britnats then quote or link to other lying Britnats to prove their lies. Especially all the GERS crap. Yes you know who you are.

      Why should we believe anything the UK gov says. Perfidious Albion.

    112. CameronB Brodie says:

      That’s the Royal Town Planning Institute, obvs.

      I’m not trying to show off, I copy and paste because folk tend not to click links. I do try to edit down to the essentials.

      The Political Economy of Brexit

      The UK’s vote to leave the European Union is a pivotal moment in British history. Over the past forty years, the UK’s economy has become increasingly intertwined and dependent on its relationship with the other EU member states with both the EU and the UK’s economic landscape irrevocably fashioned by its membership. Brexit takes both parties into uncharted territory. At such a time of uncertainty, what can we say for certain about the UK’s economic relationship with the EU and what might be the likely flashpoints for negotiations and the unintended consequences of Brexit?

      Enemies of Brexit?

      It is becoming increasingly clear that Brexit is serving as the trigger for a culture war involving universities. As with virtually everything that surrounds Brexit, the manifest causes and symptoms of this may have nothing to do with the European Union, and may not even have very much to do with universities as they actually exist. But Brexit is all about political theatre, in which symbols and mythical creatures are invoked and slayed, and higher education is becoming one of the imagined demons that supposedly stands in the hero’s path.

      For those who have little knowledge of higher education – how it works, how it succeeds, the strains and risks it currently faces – this is a fabulous opportunity to unleash resentment on what appear from a distance like citadels of privilege and arrogance. That resentment must have been brewing for some time to have reached these proportions, but is now being fed daily by right-wing newspapers (both broadsheet and tabloid) with the help of the more outrageous Brexiteers, such as Chris Heaton-Harris MP.

      Liberalism after Brexit
      A fantasy of ‘Liberalism in One Country’[i]

      Given that Brexit was an event imagined and delivered from within the Conservative Party, one of the most important analyses of it is Matthew d’Ancona’s examination of how the idea shifted from the party’s margins to its mainstream over the post-Thatcher era. Two things in particular stand out in his account.

      Firstly, the political plausibility of Brexit rose as a direct response to Tony Blair’s dogmatic assumption that European integration was a historical destiny, which encompassed the UK. No doubt a figure such as Blair would have discovered a messianic agenda under any historical circumstances. But given he gained power specifically in the mid-90s, he was one palpable victim of the fin de siècle ideology (stereotyped by Francis Fukuyama’s ‘end of history’ thesis, but also present in Anthony Giddens’ ‘Third Way’) that the world was programmed to converge around a single political system.

      Neo-conservative faith in violent ‘democratisation’ was Blair’s worst indulgence on this front, but a view of European unification (and expansion) as inevitable was responsible for inciting the Tory reaction within Westminster. Europe could have been viewed as a particular historical path, adopted in view of the particular awfulness of the European 20th century. Instead, in a Hegelian fashion, the idea of Europe became entangled with the idea of ‘globalisation’, and the conservative reaction was to refuse both.

      Secondly, Tory Brexiteers view the EU as an anti-market project, which blocks economic freedom. This is also weirdly ahistorical. Firstly, the EU was established specifically to entrench the market as the organising principle of European coordination, as a way of preventing further war between France and Germany. When the Left complains that the EU is a ‘neoliberal’ institution that elevates the market above national democracy (see Wolfgang Streeck’s piece on this), this is correct. The Left should recognise that, in terms of its foundational goal, it’s been remarkably successful.

      Of course it achieves the single market through a high level of bureaucratic and technocratic planning (such as anti-trust, standardisation, consumer protection), allowing it to be represented as ‘socialist’ by those who cling to a Victorian or anarchic idea of what the market should look like. But there is no contradiction between technocracy and market competition, indeed the latter has depended on the former ever since the rise of business corporations and market regulation in the final decades of the 19th century. David Graeber’s Utopia of Rules explores how this confluence of markets and bureaucracy works…..

    113. Valerie says:

      Thought I’d share. I’ve downloaded the pdf file, and looking through it is fascinating. Lots of info put together by Scottish Enterprise, so high level figures in here, and recent.

      Also mentions Brexit. Worth a look, I didn’t realise just how many jobs it supported just now, 14,800 direct, which in turn supports 48,000 in wider maritime industry.


      Scottish Ports: Gateways for Growth… · PDF file

      As the Scottish Government’s economic and community development agency for north and west Scotland, … Scotland’s ports are vital enablers of the wider maritime

    114. Cubby says:

      I believe Ireland is heading in the direction of a hard border and a border poll will also take place before or after the hard border is introduced.

      If the Irish vote for a United Ireland then best wishes to them in taking on the responsibility for all the Britnat nutters in the North.

    115. Iain mhor says:

      Seen as it’s a wee bit late and anent the Whisky industry:
      Worked in it.
      When ye’ve sat at a H&S briefing at Port Dundas and the phrase “Epicentre” crops up, ye tend tae listen.
      A big ring encompassing Queen St.Station tends to twitch the nethers.
      The “Industry” dizny need its hand held.
      It has, shall I say, its own global enforcement against counterfeit goods. It’s a wee bit more international than HMRC is what I’m inferring…
      It has a more than adequate analysis of the global demographic of potential whisky markets.
      Does Facebook /Google/ Apple have everything on you down to the keks you buy?
      Scotch Whisky can tell whit day ye cacked them.

    116. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m posting far too much probably to take my mind of an unweldable corroded subframe in wife’s car ho hum, new one’s cheaper than it looked like this morning all the same, and old one maybe even still under long warranty apparently. Wish me luck I could do with it. Anyways get a load of this:


      Oh, it’s plain YES, not YES We Can. I’ll have to change back my avatar.

    117. CameronB Brodie says:

      If you had read any of the material I have posted, you might appreciate I’m attempting to broaden minds. I’m not punting any ideology, far from it.

    118. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      @ ElGordo

      Are you sure it’s ‘I pleasured you’, not ‘you received pleasure’?

    119. CameronB Brodie says:

      Here’s a wee snipet I didn’t post. This from The Political Economy Research Centre (PERC), a centre for the cultural and political analysis of economic life, at Goldsmiths, University of London.

      The key question is what happens when these various ideals collide with the reality of British capitalist society in the 21st century. The immediate fall-out has been ugly: a 500% rise in reported racial hate-crime, British researchers being dumped from European research projects and early signs of economic decline. But how might ‘Liberalism in One Nation’ work in real sociological terms? I think we can envisage it playing out differently in three strata of economic activity and social class….

    120. Capella says:

      @CameronB Brodie – keep on posting Cameron. I don’t manage to read every post but it’s good to have the choice. People who aren’t interested can just scroll by.

      Same to Ken500, repetition is necessary sometimes. As with Robert Peffers posts on constitutional matters, it doesn’t always sink in at first glance. And I agree – the psychobastards should be in jail, not swanning around the planet on private jets sowing death and destruction on perfectly innocent people.

    121. Iain mhor says:

      @Yesindyref2 12:59
      I weld like f**k
      A rotted unweldable subframe?
      What in the name of the auld gods type of motor is that?
      Although, to be fair, this country will destroy anything.
      All that “We took our vehicle to the most inhospitable…”
      It’s usually the Andes or the Arctic and a dry climate.
      Cold is f**k all.
      Park yer heap o’ shite at Troon for a year and come back wi a skip I say!
      Anyway, good luck wi the warranty…

    122. Molly says:


      Went to the Scottish Convention last year. There were loads of topics covered including a future currency, an interesting talk by Pensioners for Yes, Wee Ginger Dug etc.

      From what I remember it was exactly the opposite from what Peter Bell is saying.

      The Scottish Independence Convention didn’t want a top down approach and was encouraging everyone to work in their own groups and join up with others etc although following a discussion from the floor, it was made clear a lot of people felt some kind of central point was required and definitely other speakers rather than just politicians would be helpful.

      I’ve also attended a talk by Peter Bell and (perhaps mistakenly), my impression was he was very much in favour of the SNP doing the talking.

      Personally I think it would be more difficult for the Gordon Brewers to treat other speakers from different backgrounds with the same contempt than the politicians but that’s just my view.

      At the end of the day the way I see it the more the merrier

    123. CameronB Brodie says:

      I’m not re-reading everything either, I wouldn’t be able to keep up. 😉

      Feminist standpoint isn’t an ideology and I’m not showboating, though I am a vile sep.

      Feminist Standpoint Theory

      Feminist standpoint theorists make three principal claims: (1) Knowledge is socially situated. (2) Marginalized groups are socially situated in ways that make it more possible for them to be aware of things and ask questions than it is for the non-marginalized. (3) Research, particularly that focused on power relations, should begin with the lives of the marginalized. Feminist standpoint theory, then, makes a contribution to epistemology, to methodological debates in the social and natural sciences, to philosophy of science, and to political activism….

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s all a load of personalities, and the idea is it’s my way or the highway.

      Walking’s good too 🙂

    125. Iain mhor says:

      I need tae sleep, please don’t any wingers sleep for abuse.
      In the name o the wee man! Speak yer mind!

    126. Molly says:


      Attended the Scottish Indy Convention last year.

      It was the exact opposite of Peter Bells scepticism

      It was questions from the floor if I remember right which raised the issue of a central contact if you like and the speakers/ organisers were very much keep doing what you’re doing as groups,forums, street stalls etc .

      I might be wrong because I’ve attended a few ‘gatherings’.

      Funny enough I’ve also attended a talk by Peter Bell.

      Again might be wrong but got the impression he was very much for the SNP doing the talking.

      Personally I think it would be harder for the Gordon Brewers to treat non politicians with the same contempt as he treats ‘some’ politicians and not every Yes or potential Yes voter is an SNP voter so it widens the conversation.

      The more the merrier I would think?

    127. Kangaroo says:

      Molly @1:39am

      I was just posting the link as some people may like to read it before they decide to make a donation. Better to be forewarned and considered. Others may have different views or have a deeper insight.

    128. sandy says:

      Cameron B;
      Your not one of these. You research things &, indeed, help broaden the mind.
      It’s the self-opinionated, single-minded, myth-believing know-alls who get on my goat.

    129. CameronB Brodie says:

      My mistake. 😉

    130. sandy says:

      Mr Peffers reminds us of incidents based on well researched facts as I have previously posted.

    131. Robert Peffers says:

      @Iain mhor says: 15 October, 2018 at 8:34 pm:

      ” … Estimated, best guess, kinda, probabably, should be under normal circumstances etc. is also what the relevant documentation says.”

      Yes, Iain mhor, you have the right of it. The Yoonatics wear very restrictive blinkers 24/7/365. These are not worn on the eyes but on the intellect. They thus only see, hear and understand what they are told to understand and even then they don’t understand anything but the propaganda fed to them even in the womb.

      This one is a typical example and he/she/it has form. BTW: have you noticed they almost all use genderless nom de guerre while commenting on Wings.

      I came across this typical example of such brainless parroting very early this very morning:-

      A Tory peeress who spouted this, “Tory peer says Scots must remember south-east England ‘pays their bills”:-

      It is significant that this particular example here on Wings reads are refers us to documentation that if we actually reference it doesn’t say what he/she/it claims it does yet has the temerity to claim it is we who are reading it incorrectly.

      This particular set of fantasy claims has been getting drummed into the people by the Westminster Establishment far longer than the length of the average lifespan of living people. Unfortunately there are still a far too large proportion of the people of Scotland too intellectually challenged to read and understand the truth that stares them in the face.

      This Tory peer is simply parroting a myth that cannot stand up to even quite simple thought.

      The mentality is that everything belongs to Westminster and that includes the tax paid throughout the entire United Kingdom, though they carry that untruth even further by imagining that Westminster governs all of Britain.

      It flies right over their little pointy heads that the tax is gathered from the entire populations of both Kingdoms of the United Kingdom. A bipartite United Kingdom they envision as a single country composed of four distinct countries but over which England, (a country without a legally elected parliament(, has full sovereignty.

      This particular brainless wonder carries this idiocy to even greater depths of ignorance and idiocy by imagining that the entire tax revenue of the British Isles belongs only to London. Yet in normal years the Scottish per capita GDP is higher than that of England. the current defender of these ideas here on Wings even had the hard neck to attempt to compare that high density London populations per capita GDP to that of the entire low density populated kingdom of Scotland.

    132. Petra says:

      @ Molly says at 1:26 am …. ”Kangaroo – Went to the Scottish Convention last year. There were loads of topics covered including a future currency, an interesting talk by Pensioners for Yes, Wee Ginger Dug etc. From what I remember it was exactly the opposite from what Peter Bell is saying. The Scottish Independence Convention didn’t want a top down approach and was encouraging everyone to work in their own groups and join up with others etc although following a discussion from the floor, it was made clear a lot of people felt some kind of central point was required and definitely other speakers rather than just politicians would be helpful” … At the end of the day the way I see it the more the merrier.”

      I was at the SIC Convention in Edinburgh last year too Molly and yes ”it was exactly the opposite from what Peter Bell is saying.” In fact a large number of influential independence supporters don’t seem to agree with him either.

      Imo, we REALLY need this. A ”umbrella” group that’ll pull it all together.


      ‘Fundraiser led by Elaine C Smith launched for indy campaign aiming to keep Yes support above 50%.’

      ”The National columnist Paul Kavanagh (Wee Ginger Dug) said: “I’m proud to be a part of this campaign. It’s time. Time to work. Time to build. Time to make our better Scotland real. We can only do it by pulling together, by collaboration and cooperation, because the way we campaign for our better Scotland will define that Scotland once we win it.”

      ”In the SIC’s fundraising video, MP Philippa Whitford said the organisation “will give you the strategic tools you need … to reach undecided voters and give them the information they need to back independence”.


      ‘What is the Scottish Independence Convention and who is involved?’

      ‘THE Scottish Independence Convention is a stakeholder organisation for all who wish to see Scotland become independent.

      It is made up of national level pro-independence supporting groups, pro-independence parties and representatives from regional Yes groups as follows: Women for Independence; NHS for Yes; Common Weal; Christians for Independence; Scottish CND; Scottish Green Party; Scottish National Party; Scottish Socialist Party; Labour for Independence; Young Scots for Independence; SNP Students; Radical Independence Campaign; Pensioners for Independence; Business for Scotland; Scots English for Independence; Hubs for Scottish Independence (HUSCI); Yes Highlands; Aberdeen Independence Movement; Scottish Independence Foundation.”

    133. Petra says:

      Support the Scottish Independence Convention, folks. We really need it to get us over the line.


      ‘Alex Salmond LIVE@Scottish Independence Convention (SIC) Edinburgh 2017.’

      ‘Tommy Sheppard MP – Build SIC (Scottish Independence Convention) 2017.’

    134. Petra says:

      The Scottish Whisky Industry employs around 10,000 people in Scotland and 30,000 in England. Why’s that?

      ”More than 10,000 are directly employed in the Scotch Whisky industry.

      Over 40,000 jobs across the UK are supported by the industry..”

      And then to add insult to injury many workers in Scotland, such as at Chivas Brothers / Pernod Ricard, are on zero-hour contracts … with all that entails … such being bullied and being laid off.

      That’ll bl**dy well change with Independence.

    135. Robert Peffers says:

      @Gfaetheblock says: 15 October, 2018 at 9:50 pm:

      ” … Bob Mack @9.07
      Whataboutery much?
      I was correcting mr peffers on spirits.”

      Well, Gfaetheblock, no you were not. You were attempting to mislead as has been shown, (and not just by me), You are selectively quoting from a document that when read in full does not support what you claim it does.

      I pointed out several of your claims that most certainly are wrong. Someone, not me, also pointed out that the GERS Figures are all estimates – now tell us who is it who makes those estimates? Factually all figures are from the Office Of National Statistics, (ONS).

      Have you ever made the effort to attempt to make head or tail of their figures? Here’s another fact I’ve pointed out several times. True Scottish history is actively suppressed. I pointed out just the other day that few Scots have even heard of what is severally known as, “The Battle of Old Bylands”, “The Battle of Bylands Abbey” or, “The Battle Of Bylands Ridge”.

      Even fewer could tell you of its significance. Now I just quoted something that if you now attempt to Google, or any other search engine, for it will give you a headache trying to find out anything about this significant fact. Now why do you imagine there has been a concerted effort to suppress such facts?

      Here’s a wee flavour of what I’m commenting about:-

      Try reading that and wonder why most Scots never have heard of the other battles of the Scottish wars of independence.

      Bannockburn was by no means a solitary victory. However, at Byland’s Abbey The Scots captured the Grand Seal of the Kingdom of England and under the Rule of law that prevailed throughout Christendom, (but not the Kingdom of Scotland after 1320).

      The holder of that Great Seal of England was the sovereign Lord of the Kingdom of England. The significance being that if Robert Bruce had so willed he could have legally claimed to be the sovereign monarch of the entire Kingdom of England and the international court of that time would have no choice but to uphold his claims.

      Thing is that Scotland has never attempted to take over other kingdoms by force. Even the Northern Isles were not gained by military force but as a dowry. Furthermore, the Scottish/English border was at one time down on Teeside.

      Scotland, even today, has no wish to colonise anyone else’s countries yet it was Scots Bay Boys who were the first non-native Americans to live, (and die), in Canada.

      They did not attempt to kill of the natives but lived among them, converted them to Christianity and married native Americans. They were looked down upon by the later following Englanders and tabbed as, “Squawmen”.

      A fairly recent survey in the Northern Isles surprisingly revealed traces of Native North American genes within the islanders. Further investigations showed that The Hudson Bay Company used to send the wives and families of deceased Bay Boys, “Home”, to a Scottish Island they had never set foot in.

    136. galamcennalath says:

      ” Britain’s magical thinking won’t make the EU accept the impossible …. At every step of the Brexit process, there has been a reliable way to predict what the European Union will do. …. The trick is to listen to what they actually say “

      ” the Brexit process has followed an EU timetable on terms defined by EU treaties. … European leaders have repeated the golden rule … privileges of membership are unavailable to non-members. Britain must decide what it likes about its current arrangements and then negotiate a price for retaining them. The latest terms and conditions have been regularly updated on the European commission’s website. “

      Certainly agrees with my view of reality!

    137. Robert Peffers says:

      Breaking news from 35 minutes ago:-

      This one is highly explosive if true.

    138. Petra says:

      @ cirsium says at 9:00 pm …. Petra, It’s not just the geology. It is also the disposal of the toxic water. The US has a big problem.”

      ..”Fracking is based on the “hydraulic” process of using pressurized liquid to shatter shale rock to let the oil and gas inside escape. And while that liquid is a mixture of many hazardous chemicals, it is mostly water. And acquiring that water and then properly disposing of the toxic wastewater produced by fracking is becoming a big and expensive problem for the industry…”


      Thanks for the excellent link cirsium. Water is crucial to the process, from beginning to end (dumping), and that’s why Westminster is determined to get control over fracking in Scotland. Scotland with around 5 million of a population, and with at least 31,460 freshwater lochs alone. Then there’s our sea lochs and rivers.

      There’s around 387 lakes in England however most of them are in fact reservoirs and can’t be touched. Between one thing and another England, with 53 million of a population, doesn’t seem to have too much going for it.

    139. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Good catch Robert. Wednesday is looking to be quite the day, though it’d be interesting to be a fly on the wall at that cabinet meeting today.

    140. gus1940 says:

      There is an excellent article on The Scotsman on the Guardian Scotland web site.

      The really interesting thing is the 333 comments which are worth reading as regards the culprits responsible for the paper’s descent into a right wing rag.

      If only it was possible to Tar & Feather Andrew Neil, stick him in the Stocks and pelt him with rotten fruit and excrement.

      Alongside him we could place Massie, Peterkin, Wilson, Monteith, McColm, Stephenson and the rest of the resident uncle Toms.

      I hate to think what the sadly recently departed Albert Morris must have thought of the state of the propaganda rag which used to glory in his pearls of wisdom and wonderful humour.

    141. Petra says:

      Did anyone listen to the Indycar Gordon Ross video that Robert (P) posted yesterday? If not could you do so and tell me (us) what you make of it?

      ”The Scottish Continuity Bill … If it goes to the European Court and we win we would be recognised as being a newly founded state before any referendum .. before we leave the UK .. re-establishing the sovereignty of the people. 11.00 mins in.

      ‘Indycar Gordon Ross 15 10 18 Blaming the Irish for Brexit.’

    142. Kangaroo says:

      Robert Peffers @7:32

      Deal on Gib is nearly done and seems to have been a lot less contovertial than Northern Ireland

    143. Kangaroo says:

      @Petra 8:22

      Re indycar

      Yes I saw that video but what he is suggesting doesn’t make sense to me. I would need to read the submissions to the court, but have not seen any reference to it other than Rob Peffers comments. I watched the entire Continuity Bill case on line but have not seen any link to a reference to the ECJ or other International Court. If you have a ref and I can read the submissions I may be able to provide a reasonable comment. It is obviously of vital importance so we need to be up-to-date with it.

    144. Ken500 says:

      Some whisky companies tax evade and do not pay any tax. Diageo etc. £1/2Millon. Other multinationals? Chivers? The ones Scottish based are required to pay taxes, but they can tax evade. The foreign multinationals do not pay tax. That is why some want to be UK based. HQ London. So they can evade tax under UK Law. Opposing Independence for Scotland. If the Whisky is not produced in Scotland. It can’t be labelled Scottish whisky protected by the EU. In an Independent Scotland the tax Laws could be enforced. A better taxation system.

      The tax is pay into the U.K. Treasury. Does any come back?

      Whisky Association blocked MUP for five years. It cost Scotland £Billions (5+) and early deaths. MUP does not affect the Whisky industry at all but cheap low cost cider etc which was being sold for less than water.Blighting people’s lives. The Scottish Gov/EU give grants and enterprise funding to protect and expand the whisky Industry. The EU is the nearest bigger market for Whisky, although it is sold all over the world, EU menbership protects Scottish Whisky status. It protects it as a Scottish brand. It would be difficult to do without the clout of EU menbership. Other countries could start faking it. Under EU regulations Scottish whisky must be produced in Scotland,

      India and China would try and fake it. They already do but are prevented from claiming It as
      Scottish. Scotland has the trademark on it. EU membership supports the brand. The same applies for other (Scottish) products.

      Many saltires are now being displayed in Markies and Lidls. They seem to have got the message for those who like displays of flags,

      Under EU trade regulations. The minimum pricing decision set a precedent. In relationship to other health issues, Scotland can’t set some taxes (most of them). Can’t lower and higher taxes for health reasons. The precedent was set which could encourage other businesses to healthier practices. Rather than fight or block healthy measures implemented or encourage by the Scottish Gov with EU support.

      Westminster Tories have ruined and badly affected the Oil & Gss sector with too high Tory taxes. Taxed at 40% since Jan 2016, more before. It has cost Scotland £Billions of lost revenues and thousands of jobs.

      Scotland has little control over it’s own (major) industry because it does not have the powers. The Westminster unionist totally mismanage the Scottish economy and it leads to stagnation.
      Oil & Gas are still imported when Scotland could be selling it rather than importing it.

      If Scotland gets better off so would the rest of Britain. The Tory -unionists politicians and Parties are bad for business.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence.

    145. Macart says:


      Thanks Nana. 🙂

      I’ll be keeping an eye on Wednesday’s summit and then the progress of the Continuity Bill case in the SC.

      FM hit just the right note yesterday with consistency of message. Next bit should be quite the page turner. 😉

    146. Nana says:

      Morning Macart

      It’s all coming to a head Sam. Going by the amount of negative tweets during and after FM’s speech, I’d say it was a good one.
      The yoons seemed particularly rattled, telling all the old BT lies.

      Fintan O’Toole: Brexit: Ireland and the English Question

      As Britain prepares to leave the European Union, it has become ever clearer, not just that Brexit has profound consequences for Ireland, but that Irish issues have profound consequences for Brexit. Ireland is strongly committed to remaining in the EU, and is thus set to become its only English-speaking member state.
      Scottish Indyref 2014 gets a brief mention

    147. James Barr Gardner says:

      sandy says:
      15 October, 2018 at 11:22 pm
      Ken500. @ 10.20pm.

      Had a quick reluctant glance. Utter PISH. (Other posters, excuse language usage)

      Where is the skill in debate these days ?

      If you go back 100 years most tradesmen were masons so what does that prove? It was a hangup from the medieval guild societies nowadays jobs, universities, colleges, apprenticeships are all gained by merit.

      Strangely in days long past major Scottish projects like Glasgow Royal Infirmary, the Wallace Monument, the Bannockburn Flagpole and many others were erected through the auspices of the Masonic Order with great pomp and fanfare as Masons then were proud to fly the Saltire. Nowadays nobody hears much or anything about their charity activities, still not a lot of people buy newspapers these days.

      Nowadays with Lodge it’s oh we’re APOLITICAL funnily enough exactly what HES said just recently, that brought 100000 plus into Holyrood Park. Well I have said it before and I’ll say it again when are the Masons going to March with a Yes Banner, frankly I personally don’t think it will ever happen. Still you can easily prove me wrong organize A Masons for Indy and then I shall be convinced till then as they say the jury is out !

    148. galamcennalath says:

      Kangaroo says:

      Deal on Gib is nearly done and seems to have been a lot less contovertial than Northern Ireland

      … no DUP makes all the difference 😉

    149. Breeks says:

      I think the Gibraltar situation is different because having a Border there is simplicity itself, and nowhere near as provocative and inflammatory as it is in Northern Ireland.

      There is also no formal Peace Treaty like the Good Friday Agreement which is contingent on there being no Border whatsoever.

      Good luck to Gibraltar, although time will tell whether Spain will bend to a Brexit Deal which doesn’t suit its interests, or veto any deal even supposing Westminster can ever secure one.

    150. Lenny Hartley says:

      galamcennalath Any mention of Cyprus ? Rather complex more complex there! Two sovereign base areas, plus The Troodos radar and listening base in the mountains.

    151. Bill McLean says:

      Lenny – the Troodos site is a “reserved site”, not a Sovereign Base, which is where the difficulties will lie!

    152. Kangaroo says:

      Lenny Hartley @10:23

      Cyprus is mentioned in the gib article.
      “They have spent months negotiating gib. There will be similar protocols for NI and Cyprus” unfortunately nothing more specific.

    153. Petra says:

      Great links Nana. Thanks.


      @ Kangaroo says at 8:34 am – ”Petra, Re indycar ….”Yes I saw that video but what he is suggesting doesn’t make sense to me. I would need to read the submissions to the court, but have not seen any reference to it other than Rob Peffers comments. I watched the entire Continuity Bill case on line but have not seen any link to a reference to the ECJ or other International Court. If you have a ref and I can read the submissions I may be able to provide a reasonable comment. It is obviously of vital importance so we need to be up-to-date with it.”

      ‘Indycar Gordon Ross 15 10 18 Blaming the Irish for Brexit.’ 11.00 mins in.


      ”If you have a ref.” Sorry I can’t help you out there Kangaroo, as I’m in the dark in relation to this too. I haven’t heard anything at all about the Continuity Bill dispute going on to the ECJ. Then again is that something that Nicola is planning to do if she loses at the Supreme Court (always supreme, great or whatever!)? Is it something that she can do? Maybe Gordon Ross himself could clarify what’s going on?

      The following link clearly sets out the case and why Westminster is determined to win it:

      …”This could also impact on the UK’s trade relations, not only with the EU but with other countries. The UK could find itself in the same position as Belgium in relation to trade and some other international treaties, namely that it would need the consent of the devolved administrations to enter into treaties involving environmental measures (including climate change) or trade treaties (including those dealing with agricultural products), notwithstanding that foreign policy is reserved to Westminster. This could undermine the UK’s efforts to enter as quickly as possible into a large number of trade agreements, by causing delay and opening up division through the consent process…”

    154. Elmac says:

      Re Robert Peffers @ 7.36

      Your link was a real eye opener and a fascinating read. Never knew any of this, no doubt because our history has been suppressed. I look forward to the day when our true history is taught in our schools and 1066, Magna Carta, Henry VIII et al are given their appropriate place – on the far margins of our culture.

      Many thanks Robert.

    155. Kangaroo says:

      Petra @10:52am

      Thats why the Continuity Bill is so important. Our Sovereignty is a major issue, as is Westminsters claim of being Sovereign. I am with Mr Peffers on this and believe Westminster does not in fact have Sovereignty as it has not been delegated by the monarch after the UK parliament was created in 1707.
      The outcome of the court case is crucial.

    156. Petra says:

      Just doing what they like now! Democracy my backside. We’re living under the rule of a horrendous kakistocracy.

      @ Nana

      It’s not on the (Unionist) news grumpyscottishman, but it is being reported in the National.

      ‘MP Marion Fellows in call for answers over impact of anonymous benefit claim ‘audits’.

      ..”Figures from the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) service Independent Audit show that from June 2016, there were 10,289 audits of PIP assessments; 17,285 in 2017; and 11,705 from January to August this year. For people who underwent a Work Capability Assessment under ESA, from March 2015, 7185 were audited; 8590 in 2016; 8647 in 2017; and 5423 from January to August 2018.”


      George Kerevan: ‘Good Friday Agreement can only be saved by staying in the EU.’

      ….”Start with a truth rarely admitted: the UK was created by force, deceit and bribery – it was never a voluntary affair. And non-voluntary associations always break up eventually…”

      …”Far from the UK achieving universal adult suffrage in 1918, arguably it only did so in 1998 with the signing of the Good Friday Agreement and the institution of genuine democracy in Northern Ireland. But now it hangs by a thread…”

    157. Sarah says:

      @Tackety Beets 11.45 p.m. That’s the one! Many thanks.

    158. Cubby says:

      I for one am and have been for a long long time sick of hearing about GERS. It is the biggest pile of Britnat propaganda ever invented by the Britnats. I heard Piers (Trump and Gordon Browns pal) Morgan on GMB ITV asking Nicola Sturgeon about Scotlands fictitious annual £13.4B deficit.

      Well what he didn’t say is the figure for Scotlands national debt. Of course if there is such an annual deficit then logically there should be a Scotland national debt of say 100s of billions of pounds. The amount that would have been built up if you had an annual deficit of that amount. There is of course no Scotland national debt. If there is where is it hiding? Where and when does Scotland raise money from the markets to cover this national debt.

      There is only UK national debt ( and a massive debt mountain it is) because the UK control all the revenues and expenditure. GERS is not even economics for dummies it is pure and simple propaganda for the likes of Morgan and the Daily Express to say Scotland cannot afford to be independent when the opposite is true.

      As Wings quite superbly debunked GERS in a recent post please note if I see any posts giving credence to this nonsense then expect critical comment.

    159. Lenny Hartley says:

      Bill Mclean I learned to Ski at Troodos in the Mid seventies and was also detached there for a couple of weeks in 1976 when I was based at Episkopi. It was shortly after leaving the RAF in 1977 that I saw the light and started supporting Scottish Independence. Might have had something to do with the institutionalised racism I experienced 🙂

    160. yesindyref2 says:

      As Wings quite superbly debunked GERS in a recent post please note if I see any posts giving credence to this nonsense then expect critical comment.

      There are two ways of doing that. The first is to attack anyone debating the finer points of GERS, whether on Wings or on some MSM forum, the second is just to make a posting which points out the debunking, points out that Ian Lang started it as a propaganda tool to show that Scotland was a load of scroungers and would be a dustbowl in the case of Independence, and pointing out whatever else you want about it.

      The first gets in the way if for instance a pro-Indy poster is talking to an undecided or a soft NO, going in depth and showing whatever it is, like for instance the economic benefit of some of the spending is in London not Scotland, and that can be disruptive, the second is supportive and you may well be getting a secret smile from the pro-indy debater, as it’s a point they, we or I, are not able to make as we’re tackling it head on.

      I’ve had that in the MSM, two of us tackling it from those two very different points of view, me tackling it head on, the other making the points about it being a propaganda tool and not to be trusted. That works fine.

    161. Bill McLean says:

      Lenny – I also skied at Troodos but in the 80s. Do you remember Smokey Joe’s café at the top? Loved Cyprus and go most years for holiday in fact back just last week. When I worked there I was also a believer in GB but in conversation with a Greek Cypriot learned much about our behaviour there which made me feel very uncomfortable. Did some research and by 1990 decided that we have been mightily deceived about Britain and it’s role in the world. Finally made the decision on Scottish independence about 2005 – wish i’d known earlier what I know now!

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