Wings Over Scotland

“Because all she’s done so far is prove that there’s no UK leader SO incompetent that they can’t, at a bare minimum, successfully foil Nicola Sturgeon.”

And the worst of them all just ignored her.

One day soon all her gloating will be thrown back at her.
All things must pass and she’ll soon be seen as an embarrassing footnote in the story of Scottish independence.

It’s a grim truth and yet, people still think she’s some kind of hero. For whom?

This WM shitshow is the last of the many golden gifts to the cause of Scots independence that will come before people’s appetite for change is erroneously satisfied by a Labour government. After those 5 years, the whole world will be in spiralling out of control and survival will occupy too much of people’s thoughts and actions to leave room for constitutional politics.

When it comes to providing Scottish independence, Sturgeon the betrayers incompetence knows no bounds. It won’t matter how inept or how much infighting breaks out within the Tory party or Westminster in general, Sturgeon will cling onto this union and Scots will suffer the consequences.

Ian.

So, Sturgeon the betrayer intends to see off other PM’s, that tells me independence isn’t on the cards at all.

The issue is too many see it as “us v them”, for which read “Holyrood v Westminster” but with some ordinary punters imagining that Holyrood is “on their side” and they are part of “a team”, as opposed to both Parliaments being rammed to the gunwales with self-interested catchphrase spewers.

The idea that you could be unhappy to varying degrees with the performance of the main parties/politicians at both Holyrood AND Westminster is alien to far too many folk (I include here unionists who pretend that what the Westminster parties are serving up is somehow acceptable, because that’s their “team” and therefore they must laud that and denigrate Holyrood at all turns).

Until that changes (for enough people), we are stuck in this endless loop of “Nicola need not do anything much at all to be a hero, and if you disagree you are a Yoon!”. The tragedy is that the folk who think like that do not understand they permit the stasis and lack of action, which results in the decline we can all see. If you are happy with politicians doing nothing, they WILL do nothing, because it’s the easiest thing to do.

The British state broadcaster doesn’t want you to see this.

“Thousands of views and growing for our Party Political Broadcast on the Cost of Living Crisis that the BBC wouldn’t let us broadcast this autumn.”

link to twitter.com

Sturgeon could be the only person on the football field and still she wouldn’t score a goal for Scotland.

“Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
21 October, 2022 at 1:52 pm

Swear to God I saw someone on Twitter call her a “genius” this morning.”

Twitter strikes me as the manifestation of the “infinite number of monkeys” idea, so someone somewhere must therefore be proclaiming that vbery thing…

@Grodon Currie 3.32 pm

Good to see Angus talking sense, although it’ll never catch on the the SNP of course.

If only we had a functioning media in Scotland that could hold all these SNP MPs and MSPs to account and doorstep and hassle every one of them relentlessly until they answered why they weren’t supporting Angus’ idea.

A few ‘Alphabetties’ making charges of sexual assault against Angus MacNeil will soon shut him up!

Wot? You think she’s not that devious?

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned and right now Angus MacNeil is pushing his luck.

He’s looking like one of these ‘Albists’ which Sturgeon hates.

Sturgeon will dismiss any criticism of the SNP coming from Independence supporters as coming from these Albists.

She’s got the cult all worked about Alba.

Dave, Iwelumo missed but he at least took the shot…

Astonished says:
21 October, 2022 at 3:55 pm

I firmly believe Sturgeon/Murrell will become the most hated people in Scottish history. And the vile alphabetties, the plotters and the cowardly nuSNP MSPs and MPs not far behind.

Hopefully before it reaches that stage they will gone!

Thing is, she was given one job… To witness the LAST UK Prime Minister, not sit on her arse while five of them roll past.

Now she’s even gloating because she’s spun the job out for 8 painful years, still hasn’t delivered a damned thing, drained the coffers empty, but wants a pat on the back for nothing except indolence and failure. She makes my skin crawl.

Still, I wonder how many Independent Scottish First Ministers she’ll see come and go while she’s serving time in prison. I hope it’s a round half dozen, and one or two of those are Alex Salmond… 🙂

link to twitter.com

Truss was only in PM for 44 days, but ignored Sturgeon throughout. I think that puts Truss ahead in the “promises kept” score.

She also nearly wrecked the UK, bless her, which Sturgeon hasn’t even attempted in 8 years, so that’s Liz Truss two ahead isn’t it?

link to twitter.com

Jesus wept… Mhairi Black clearly doesn’t do irony…

I’m fucking speechless.

Breeks posted on 21 October 2022 at 5:06 pm
link to twitter.com

“I’m fucking speechless.”

And no fuckin wonder you’re speechless. She was given an open goal; her English interviewer states a very good point about all these reasons being arguments for independence and what does she say?

“Ah’d take a General Election right now, tee hee hee”

There you go, folks, proof if you ever needed it. Sturgeon’s Nasty Party have went to Westminster to settle-in rather than settle-up. What a fricken self-serving embarrassment. Boycott Westminster elections.

It is likely there is anything suppressing the percentage or propping it up even? I’d have thought with immigration and demographic changes we’d be seeing a long term decline.

That’s an interesting one. You’d think that with demographic change if nothing else the % in favour of indy would be growing as we keep being told the younger generations are much more in favour of indy than the older generation. That means some other factor must be in play.

Can we really be losing as many or more folk who formerly supported indy than we’re gaining from “new” voters who have come on to the electoral register over the past 8 years? Maybe it’s women horrified at the rank misogyny of GRA reform/Self-ID?

I wonder how many % points BoJo’s second stint as PM will be worth?

It only takes one rotten apple to spoil the barrel !

“A ‘shock and awe’ campaign is under way to revive Johnson, but a win isn’t in the bag” link to archive.ph

Andy Ellis

Well that was my question.

It’s sort of taken as a given that young folks are more pro-indy but specific numbers aren’t published very often. Then you add in all the anguish of all the aprons being flown by the immigrants and it’s surprising the figure is flat, given that there must have been substantial underlying changes in the voting base over the past years. Add to that all the uncertainties over how polls are conducted and it’s starting to look like the numbers might be getting the same treatment as the inflation figures.

I doubt that BoJo will make a difference. This whole situation has been a clown-show from start to finish. An encore by the clown-in-chief isn’t likely to swing people one way or another. Sitting in a cold house for the bulk of the winter will.

Dan, thanks for that. I’m sure the details are way more complicated than Mia portrays, for example, all my Geordie workmates want to move to an independent Scotland. Still it’s pretty clear that the SNP dragging their feet until the magic 60% is just a fantasy / delaying tactics and they know it.

The next few months should stir things up a lot. We should know by mid-November whether the doom and gloom merchants (I’m one) are right and there will be widespread hardship. That will do more for independence than anything else. By that time the SNP leadership will likely have lost control of the ball – maybe a communist revolution will be the thing that saves the Union.

I have absolutely no time for the conservatives, but at least they have the guts to get rid of the person in charge when they are not up to the job. I just wish some in the SNP would develop a spine and do the same.

If I was/were English, whether from Newcastle, Norwich, Manchester or Winchester I hope I would have enough backbone to stay and fight for a better country than to think Scotland is some kind of lifeboat built just for me. Scotland is not the answer to England’s north-south divide.

Andy Ellis says: at 7:30 pm

“If I remember rightly one of the polls after indy – I don’t remember if it was one of Rev Stu’s or not – actually showed that a significant number of people had switched both ways. I suppose we tend to assume most people, most of the time, have set positions, or that once they switch, they don’t switch back?

There are obviously committed folk on both sides who will never change sides, but is it feasible that all of the pro-indy folk now are the same as those in 2014? Or that all of the undecideds now are the same as those in 2014 or since?”

Well duh, obviously folk are influenced to change their positions on Scotland returning to self-governing status for many reasons, such as membership of EU / Single Market access, or women and girl’s rights being severely impacted by Self ID policy, having confidence in the competence of the current Scottish Administers of devolved powers, I’ll tack on war and NATO too now whilst I’m here…

So folk come and go. Yet you have been very antagonistic to folk about scaring the horses of the current corralled less than majority support for Scottish self-governance, which only benefits the current status quo…
I’ve asked you previously about the Venn Diagram of YES supporters, it was along the lines of would you accept gaining 20% of new folk for YES on a new policy position if it meant losing 10% of current Yessers which included yourself.
Fairly sure you have stated you would work against Indy in such circumstances. So it’s only Indy for you if it’s your type of Indy and not what the majority of Scots want.

Andy Ellis

There are two things that brought up whether the polls are showing a true picture or not.

The first is the obvious one. Why so flat for such a long period, given nothing has really stayed the same while stuff like Brexit, participation in elections is declining, etc. etc.

The second comes from a discussion on The Duran (yes, I know) on the upcoming mid-term elections in the USA. The upshot was that the polls were considered wildly inaccurate as they tended, quite obviously, to target people who were receptive to being polled, i.e. those prepared to answer phone calls from random strangers, etc.

The numbers being polled are not that high so it seems that they’d be subject to all kinds of variance. Sample size is a killer in science so that pollsters have the problem solved is stretching things a bit. Then again, they may just be phoning up the same people each time. The whole process might be precise but is it accurate.

That the SNP want to move the needle on a target that never seems to change, come rain or shine, is altogether a little too convenient 😉

Robert G says on 21 October 2022 at 7:25 pm:
“I have absolutely no time for the conservatives, but at least they have the guts to get rid of the person in charge when they are not up to the job. I just wish some in the SNP would develop a spine and do the same.”

Correct, Robert! Just yesterday i found my self contemplating just how much more i detest Sturgeon than Ruth ‘The Mooth’ Davidson. And i never in a million years thought i’d find my self thinking like that. My conclusion was that as loathsome as she is, at least ‘The Mooth’ doesn’t hide the fact she’s a Unionist. 😉

@Dan

So folk come and go. Yet you have been very antagonistic to folk about scaring the horses of the current corralled less than majority support for Scottish self-governance, which only benefits the current status quo…

That’s a misrepresentation. Colour me unsurprised. I’m antagonistic to roasters. My concern has been to stop moonhowlers with extremist positions adversely impacting the chances of converting undecided voters.

Even you are able to discern that those still (just?) in the majority opposed to independence will tend to be fairly far removed from the moonhowlers views on issues. The last thing the movement needs is to be identified with sub-Trumpian conspiracy theorists, Vlad fluffers and covidiots. Sorry if that’s hard for you and others to accept, but it’s just the way it is.

I’ve asked you previously about the Venn Diagram of YES supporters, it was along the lines of would you accept gaining 20% of new folk for YES on a new policy position if it meant losing 10% of current Yessers which included yourself.

You may have done so. I don’t recall the detail. I imagine the devil would be in the detail, no? It would have to be something pretty major for me to think it made independence unpalatable or something I’d actively oppose. Presumably most if not all people would have some red lines. Others may be absolutists and would accept independence no matter what the policy position.

I’ve heard a number of people – mostly GC women – saying they’d now find it hard to support independence because the SNP and Greens would be able to push through GRA reform and self-ID.

I’d certainly campaign – hard – against franchise restriction, but I’m pretty convinced it wouldn’t fly with the movement as a whole anyway, particularly after the Alba leadership poured cold water on it. I doubt I’d be alone on the issue, and from what I’ve seen I’d be happier standing shoulder to shoulder with those who agree with my views, than the views of nativists in here.

On other issues, I’d prefer for example a movement that was pro NATO and pro-EU, and republican but wouldn’t die in a ditch about any of them, and in any case I suspect most will be business for after we actually achieve independence.

Unsurprisingly, I think my views tend to represent those of the majority. If I’m in the minority ona given issue, fair enough. Certainly I think my takes on most of the issues are more representative than those of the moonhowling claque in here, however much they insist they’re in the right, or actually represent the majority. The only thing that would prove it on any given issue is polling I suppose.

I still have some sympathy for Rev Stu’s point from last year WRT the nativism debate:

If we got a referendum tomorrow I don’t in all honesty know if I could bring myself to campaign in it, because it’d be a *de facto* campaign for Nicola Sturgeon’s vision of a hellish, intolerant, incompetent and corrupt Scotland.

I’m not sure I could bring myself to campaign along side the SNP just because we share a common goal, but I’d campaign for the movement in general.

If ‘politics is the art of the possible’ then the return of Boris Johnson may be proof whether we like it or not. There doesn’t seem to be any legal or constitutional hurdle, it’s all about whether or not he can resist the temptation to emulate Churchill.

Sturgeon can bump her gums about it all she likes, it won’t make any difference. Her opining on ‘democractic imperatives’ and suchlike only underscores the impression that she is succumbing to some form of messianic complex. It’s almost as if she feels she’s too big for the Scottish stage, that the rest of the world needs and deserves her help. (A bit like Blair come to think of it.)

If we reduce everything to basics, no matter how unlikely or unpalatable they may be, we have to imagine whether or not there is any realistic prospect of her leading the SNP into the referendum, be it next October or years down the line.

If the answer to that simple question is ‘no’ then we have to work out how she can be removed. Because if she cannot be removed – by legal, peaceful means of course – then some of us are not prepared to waste any more time and hope on the independence cause. We can’t be expected to linger forever, waiting for something which is never going to happen.

She is not just damaging the prospects for independence – she is causing mental health problems with her behaviour and policies.

As a friend wrote to me recently (he is a long-suffering Motherwell fan) – ‘It’s the hope that kills you.’

The second comes from a discussion on The Duran (yes, I know) …

Oh FFS…you “know” but you’re still just going to limbo right under that bar huh?

“Overall, we rate The Duran as a Questionable source based on far-right-wing bias, promotion of Russian propaganda, right-wing conspiracies, a lack of transparency, use of poor sources, plagiarism, and failed fact checks.”

link to mediabiasfactcheck.com

I’m gonna post here, something I posted on Facebook a wee while ago.
—————————————

The problem we have in Scotland is that, for years, under Alex Salmond, the SNP did a good job of managing Scotland and attracted voters to the concept of “SNP”, whose initial principle in their constitution is the independence of Scotland. Under his management, we had indyref 2014, which we, for some unfathomable reasons, declined.

When we declined to vote for independence, Alex resigned and entered the world of media production, via his show on RT.

His successor, Ms Sturgeon, saw this as a threat to her power and put together a plot to “kill him dead”, resulting in all the “Alphebetties” crawling out of the SNP woodwork to make spurious accusations against him. It was proved in court that the most serious accusation of (attempted) rape couldn’t have happened – because she wasn’t in the building that night!

Then the Alba Party was formed in early 2021, and Alex was asked to be leader. He accepted. There has been an almost total blackout in the mainstream media regarding Alba.
Neal Hanvey and Kenny McAskill (both ex-SNP, now Alba) have been doing the work in Westminster, that we would expect from the SNP. But the SNP have settled in to Westminster, rather than settling up.

The majority of voters are, comfortably, voting for the SNP in local council, Holyrood and Westminster elections, not realising that the SNP no longer fights for its first principle, i.e., an independent Scotland.

And what about the SNP policy of allowing men to declare themselves women in 3 months, with no medical intervention? Men, saying they are women, going into female prisons, then committing rape on real women?
This country, Scotland, used to be inhabited by people with common sense. Seems that ‘common sense’ is not required by those in charge of the SNP these days.
And it’s not just we voters they’re ignoring, it’s the party membership as well.
link to craigmurray.org.uk

That video of Mhairi Black… no sense of urgency, highly entertained at the ‘drama’ of Westminster, not the multitude of use of the words ‘Britain’ and ‘we’ when talking about ‘we are a laughing stock’, ‘we can’t keep doing this’ (NB – not real quotes, writing from memory and paraphrasing).

Very firmly placing herself in team GB’s camp, with a late shout for the company slogan, ‘Independence?, Oh yes, that thing’.

One commentator below the line, stated she looked like an unwashed, itchy, junkie and wondered when she last washed her hair.

Sadly, I don’t think they were being unfair.

Sold out.. for a KitKat.

Wha wid be a ("Tractor" - Ed)s knave? If only the SNP MP’s had such high standards.

Well Off-Topic, but I hope a few people will see it.

Yes East Ayrshire’s hub/shop in Kilmarnock will be closing at the end of the month. We will be having a closing down sale tomorrow and Sunday 10-4 (with the possibility of opening by arrangement at other times during the following week, or the next weekend if there’s still stuff to shift).

It’s at 31C Titchfield Street, Kilmarnock, KA1 1QW. That’s a couple of doors down from the MP’s office, and a block or two up from the Galleon Centre. If you want to contact us about weekday opening, we are at yeseastayrshire[at]gmail[dot]com and on twitter, facebook, and LinkedIn.

@Dan 10:32

How did “the yoof” vote in the EU referendum then?

The overwhelming orthodoxy was that we should vote to stay – is that how they voted?

Alf Baird reckons an inability to break free from the dead hand of external control is dead cert evidence of colonisation. Are you saying it’s only some of us older Scots who have the smarts to work this out?

If so, not looking good for Scotland’s future.

But to be fair. If the next generation of Scots don’t want Indy, as in they don’t want control from Edinburgh, and they do want control from Brussels, then at least they are capable of logical thinking.

Cos that’s a fundamental fact that seems to elude many on here, including yourself. There are no independent nations in the EU.

Independence, or EU membership. Think it through and pick one, Dan.

Crazycat 10.43pm

Sorry to hear your Yes Hub is closing.

Is that due to lack of local Interest?

If it is, it is surely another sign of the impact (or lack of it) Sturgeon is having on the Yes movement Scotland wide.

Everything about Sturgeon is designed to suppress interest in the YES Movement and any independence campaign.

She is one detestable spiteful bitch.

John Main says:
21 October, at 11:46 pm

“How did “the yoof” vote in the EU referendum then?

The overwhelming orthodoxy was that we should vote to stay – is that how they voted?”

You were saying it’s a truism that the yoof rebel against the prevailing orthodoxy, and that the overwhelming orthodoxy on the question of EU membership was to stay, so…

link to letmegooglethat.com

The only way that Labour can be electable in Westminster is if Tories get to the point where they are utterly un-electable. By the way things are going, that will be happening in the next two years.

When this happens, what will happen to the SNP support? It is fair to say that the recent electoral success of the SNP has been done to ex-Labour supporters. If so, if Labour looks electable in Westminster, it is also fair to say that they will ditch the SNP in the hope of a Labour Westminster victory.

Could by the SNP ambition with the support for the Union is due to holding onto these ex-Labour voters and desire to have a General election now is to get another term in Westminster before the hypothetical disintegration of voters that I had previously mentioned?

James Che @ 4:48 pm

“A few theories.”

Yes, theory explains what we see in practice, and postcolonial theory tells us all we need to know about how a national party behaves to delay and block independence during the decolonization process.

As Frantz Fanon said: “inside the dominant National Party the will to break colonialism is linked with another quite different will: that of coming to a friendly agreement with it.”

link to yoursforscotlandcom.wordpress.com

@Hatuey

The evidence suggests his views are not popular though.

OK, let’s see your evidence. This is WoS: you have a fine example over years of Rev Stu marshalling evidence and fisking the cliams of unionists and British nationalists.

The fact that a handful of contrarians in here agree with you on some issues proves precisely nothing. We’re talking about how these issues and policies play out amongst the Scottish electorate as a whole, the independence movement more narrowly, and amongst swing voters we need to convince to change from No to Yes.

The fact that James Che is monomaniacally obsessed with the Treaties of Union and uses an intellectual splatter gun to spam this place with her pearls of wisdom doesn’t mean her views are popular, still less that they have any intellectual or academic weight. Similarly with those pushing conspiracy theory based stances on vaccination, Vlad’s aggression and war crimes or restricting the franchise.

Even someone with your obviously limited horizons can’t honestly be expecting us to accept that the views of a handful of moonhowlers is at all representative? We know there’s an overwhelming – and growing – majority in support of EU membership for example. There zero evidence of any desire by the majority to be neutral and not join NATO: if there was the opponents and folks who view the USA and NATO as the “Great Satan” would be shouting it from the rooftops.

So…again…show us the money.

Personally I think he’d be more at home with the SNP’s NATO cheerleader, Stewart McDonald, than say Alba’s Sheridan.

I’m certainly closer to the the mainstream on issues like NATO and the EU, but I’ve got little else in common with SNP loyalists. You’re going to have to up your game a bit if you’re insisting there is only one true path to independence Hatuey.

Most folk will have a a range of views on different subjects: we’re not all obliged to agree on every topic. On lots of issues I’m probably closer to Sheridan’s views than those of McDonald and others, but I’m certainly not as far left as Sheridan or the SSP kind of platform some would like to see. It is worth remembering the % of votes the far left gets in Holyrood elections though.

I disagree with Alba on NATO membership, just as some people in the SNP disagree with their party’s stance on NATO and the EU. I agree with Alba not the SNP on GRA reform and self ID. I agree with Alex Salmond that franchise restriction is a bad idea.

It’s not easy to see an ill-intentioned actor like you clumsily trying to other people who have the temerity to disagree with their woo-woo views as Sturgeonites, closet yoons or tractors*.

The protests in France and elsewhere today suggest there are alternative approaches to politics available to us and should give us all hope — more hope than is offered by sitting on the sidelines moaning and pointing to Nicola’s obvious flaws, without advocating for anything that resembles a solution.

When has the UK or Scotland ever looked to the French example? I know a fair few folks are predicting civil disobedience and barricades on the streets, but a lot of the rest of us have our doubts.

However hard it may be to accept, the likelihood is that most folk will wait it out hoping for some external intervention to bring about early elections (whether Tory party internal politics or the markets making it known the Tories time is up), or they’ll wait for the next scheduled elections.

Extra parliamentary routes are possible of course: they always have been. Whether the predictions of some that they are imminent, and what form they take, remains to be seen.

And this one is well…so very true.

“You should be able to exit a treaty in the same way you entered it. International law recognises the three: changes of circumstances, violation of fundamental conditions of the treaty and lack of good faith from a partner in the treaty as perfectly valid reasons to unilaterally terminate the treaty. We have experienced the three. Scotland does not need a referendum to exit this treaty in the same way it did not need one to enter it. The only thing we need is a majority of anti-union MPs WILLING to use their mandate to terminate the union. Clearly the overwhelming majority of those we elect in 2019 are not willing.”

This happens unfortunately to most organisations. Instead of serving the people who elected them for a specific purpose, they have become self serving.

It’s a pity the SNP have become so bereft of ambitions of Independence but that’s how it is.

It is good to try and improve society as a whole but that’s not why most people vote for them. What should be their prime goal has become nothing more than an election time catchphrase, to be used and then dumped due to “circumstances”.

During the last GE, (or perhaps HE, they are beginning to blur) the tory party in Scotland put a large picture of Nikla on their campaign billboards outside all the polling stations.

Not only was this a breach of the law in terms of campaign material at polling stations, (should only be the name of the party/emblem and candidate name)… but it was a fundamental strategic error in terms of campaigning, and is known to backfire all the way.

Psychologically, people see the face and the name, remember them and vote for that person.

Not to put too fine a point on it, no matter how ironic and cutting you think your message is about a politician – you never put their picture and name on your literature. Never.

Given the experience the Tory Party has, and the resources… and for all their sins, they do know how campaigning works, all the tricks of the trade so to speak, then this ‘error’ was inexplicable.

Today, the National newspaper, has a picture of Boris on the front cover.

It is possibly the only picture on earth where Boris has his hair combed, his shirt pressed, his suit buttoned up and looking smart, and it has him standing outside No 10, looking nothing short of presidential.

Any minute now, SNP loyalists will come out with the tired old phrase… ‘best recruiting sergeant Indy every had’… and all talk from our SNP leadership will be of a GE.

Nicola Sturgeon has committed to re-joining NATO if Scotland becomes independent.

What Nicola needs to say is when we are independent we can make decisions about Nato, the EU, the UN G7 and all the rest.

It will be up to the Scottish electorate and only the Scottish electorate to decide and that is the beauty of independence.

You want Scotland to be a member of NATO then vote for a party that supports NATO membership.

Andy Ellis

>Oh FFS…you “know” but you’re still just going to limbo right
>under that bar huh?

Nobody is free of bias and everyone has an agenda. That’s been written in mile high letters for the past few years so it’s impossible to be objective. The best one can hope for is compare opposites and dig around for nuggets of reality somewhere in the middle.

For extra halo points: I try to be upfront on where I am coming from. If I get info from somewhere I like to state the source so people can make their own judgement.

Lets take a look at that site:

link to mediabiasfactcheck.com

“Overall, we rate Wings Over Scotland Left-Center Biased and Questionable based on the promotion of conspiracy theories, poor sourcing, a failed fact check, and the use of hate speech.”

And yet here you are.

link to en.wikipedia.org

Media Bias/Fact Check (MBFC) is an American website founded in 2015 by editor Dave M. Van Zandt. It uses a 0–10 scale to rate sites on two areas: bias and factual accuracy. It has been criticised for its methodology and accuracy.

link to en.wikipedia.org

@RoS 10.22 pm

Possibly because, quite deliberately, in occupied countries there is not a system of citizenship in place that allows for that. The Falklands and Gibraltar have that system though.

A simple category error on you part. No matter how many times this is explained to hard of thinking nativists, they just don’t get it. It’s like explaining “small….and far away” to Father Dougal FFS!

Scotland is not an occupied country or a colony however hard the proponents of the colonialism snake oil tout it. Only the nutter fringe believe this. The UN does not accept Scotland as a non-self governing territory. It DOES accept that Gibraltar and the Falklands are non-self governing territories.

However hard you, Mia and “Scott” try to insist Scotland is the same as Gibraltar, The Falkland Islands or New Caledonia it just isn’t true.

As a result, the comparison is false. The CORRECT comparison is with other countries which have held self determination referendums, which have all used residence rather than ethnicity, blood line or citizenship criteria. Of those that have applied a qualifying period of residence, most have used 24 months.

These are the facts. Nativists might not like them, but they can’t change them.

RoS @ 10.29 am

The only thing we need is a majority of anti-union MPs WILLING to use their mandate to terminate the union. Clearly the overwhelming majority of those we elect in 2019 are not willing.

That’s an assertion, not a fact. The accepted hurdle for achieving independence is demonstrating that a majority of Scots voters support it. The number of MPs supporting it is immaterial, because as we saw in 2015 it was possible to gain 56 of 59 MPs on 49.97% of the vote.

To be accepted by the international community and Scottish and British unionists the movement needs to demonstrate a clear majority in favour, in response to a clear question from parties or a movement which has asked for a clear mandate for independence in a referendum or plebiscitary elections.

Cunning plans for indy will only be countenanced in the event of the British nationalists being seen to act in bad faith, and/or using repression or violence to stop the exercise of self determination.

“Cunning plans for indy will only be countenanced in the event of the British nationalists being seen to act in bad faith, and/or using repression or violence to stop the exercise of self determination.” – Ellis

Does refusing to countenance another referendum count as bad faith or repression?

I’m voting NO if Sturgeon doesn’t commit to iScotland joining the CND, PPU & Leaders for World Peace.

Actually that’s not true. I would vote NO if I thought Sturgeon would have any power in iScotland.

As someone said on Twitter ‘I’m voting YES to get rid of the SNP.

Ruby says:
22 October, 2022 at 12:06 pm

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Excellent question Scott.

Ooops sorry I want to take that back.

All these questions are all being to look like

‘Ask the professors’ The two professors being Andy Ellis & John Main 🙂

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Edit

All these questions are beginning to look like ‘Ask the professors!’ or maybe it’s an interview with mega stars.

I can’t figure out who is at fault here re all these questions. Well I can but I’m being good today!

@Hatuey

I’m confused, Andy.

But if public opinion can be changed on independence, it can be changed on other things too. That’s axiomatic.

Yes, your posts are often confused. We’re trying our best to set you right, but sometimes people are just beyond help. Still, it’s worth pointing out where they are wrong (or just trolling for the bantz) “pour encourager les autres” who might be less confused.

I already said that it was possible for people to change, and that this had been shown in previous polls one of which was referenced by Rev Stu a while ago. An opinion poll is a snap shot of peoples views at the time they are asked. The poll discussed asked if people had changed their views on independence and showed that indeed a reasonable % of folk (I think it may have been as much as 10% but it was a while ago….) had changed from supporting Yes in 2014, to supporting No.

I remember it surprised me at the time as I’d seen hardly any public evidence of people going from Yes to No. Similarly however, the poll showed quit a lot of former No voters switching to Yes.

I neither said, nor to I believe, that individual people’s views are fixed and immutable. What we have to go on however is what their views are now. Unless you’re one of those who doesn’t trust any polling, such opinion polls and the results of elections are all we have to go on.

We can’t continually focus on the the deck being stacked against us (whether the MSM deck, the “Western liberal economic orthodoxy” deck, or the “scientific orthodoxy” deck, as an excuse for the lack of progress in the independence movement. Media bias between 2012-14 didn’t stop us adding >15% to the number of people supporting independence, so what explains the fact it’s been in stasis for much of the last 8 years?

It’s a huge cop out used by those lacking in imagination. You can insist all you like that e.g. the views of those who think Vlad and his nice bunch of lads are right, and that the folk of country 404 “had it coming”, but that doesn’t mean it’s accepted by more than a handful of cranks, still less that it is objectively true.

Even this week, we’ve seen evidence of swathes of opinion amongst Tories that BoJo should become Prime Minster. I doubt there are many takers in here that this would be the right thing to do, but we all know lots of frothing brexiteers and those John Major used to refer to as “the bastards” in his own cabinet many moons ago, who think there is a conspiracy to keep him out an that they represent mainstream opinion.

@Hatuey

Do we surrender and rigidly tailor our political views to bring them into line with public opinion when we all know public opinion has essentially been shaped — at the very least contorted — by the self-serving sociopathic crackpots that have editorial control over the MSM?

Who is doing or advocating that? Of course public opinion can change. You can’t think the “sociopathic crackpots that have control over the MSM” are simultaneously all-powerful and yet unable to roll back the % in favour of independence. If they were, wouldn’t we be on less than 45-50% in favour? Of course the MSM can help shape and direct opinion, but it also reflects it.

However hard you and other wish it were otherwise, the fact that an overwhelming majority believes in something doesn’t mean they are wrong or being manipulated, and it doesn’t mean that those holding a minority view are party to some secret knowledge or information that the public are either not privy to, or too dumb to understand, it’s just that they won’t necessarily agree with the take of the minority on any particular issue.

I can for example argue with John Main that he’s wrong about the EU, but I suspect it would do no good. He’s convinced being in the EU is a mistake. Similarly, I’ll never convince RoS that Vlad is a sociopathic war criminal and this his views on country 404 are deeply repugnant and reflect only a tiny majority of the movement. Even Craig Murray, whose take on international issues I don’t always agree with, was moved to post recently in his piece on Vlad’s illegal annexations:

I probably dislike western governments in a deeper and more informed way than they do; it just does not lead me to the ridiculous illogicality of believing that because the west is bad and run by warmongers, rival warmonger P utin and his oligarchs must be better.

If you want to understand NuSNP on the Britain first mantra,

Read the White Paper, Levelling up Britain.

Anyone really interested in independence would be looking more seriously at the Treaty of the Union,

For that is what ( union ) people do not want you to question, and quickly dismiss the idea from your thoughts.

It just happens to be the very thing that Westminster is trying to re-new into a more compelling treaty format.

One wonders why they feel the need to do that?

AHemmm.

Reading you’re posts from the past year you have been in hot denial that Scotland has been Colonised at all in any way whatsoever.

While Alf Baird and others were alert to that political position of Scotland,

I don’t think it is incompetence per se. It is precisely as she has always said, at each step. She hasn’t actually lied to us in a straightforward manner: she has implied all along that she will not take us to independence, will do nothing to push for it. It is we – or at least, some of us, who have interpreted her every move as being for independence. The faithful still believe she will take us to independence by nothing at all to advance independence – just read the letters page in The National every day. Full of statements of faith, and faith alone.

When the Supreme Court says NO, or if it fudges the question, she will blame it and Westminster again, the faithful will scream and shout, the plebiscitary GE will be raised yet again, and gradually, as the clamour dies down, an excuse for dumping that will emerge. The mouthpieces are already creating caveats. All NS has ever done since 2014 is to dangle carrots and withdraw them again.

It has not been a case of Westminster doing this that or the other, it is, as the Rev says, the determination by NS not to take advantage of any of the opportunities presented. It is determination because no one could be that timid or cautious (and she is rarely timid or cautious in any other context – think GRA Reform). Nah. This has been the game all along: continued and lucrative devolution, troughing for MPs and MSPs, SPADS and other hangers-on without any plan for our future except broad hints that we will all have to suffer even more pain.

The SNP is a British party now, settled in and cosy. All the spleen is manufactured. All of it is quite deliberate. It will continue till the SNP is voted out of power eventually, as all governments are, unless something dynamic occurs. Soon. Whether she goes now or later, she will waltz off into the sunset and straight into another lucrative sinecure. These b******s always do, leaving the rest of us to our exquisite agonies.

@Andy Ellis

I am on balance opposed to the EU because there is plenty of hard evidence of how it shafts small countries like Greece. There is plenty of hard evidence of how it denies democracy in large countries like Italy.

That said, if the people of Scotland, having been told accurately and fairly what the pros and cons of EU membership would mean for them, and then having decided we want In, I would have no problem with that.

I have always had, have now and will continue to have in the future, a reasoned aversion to anybody describing a country that is within the EU as independent. That won’t change.

Seems to me that anybody lying through their teeth to claim that Scotland can be both independent and in the EU is a malign actor. I can think of no good reasons why anybody would persist with that self-evident, self-contradicting lie.

Lorna Campbell.

I agree with your comments, But take it one step further,

Not only is the snp working and settled into a Nu British snp party trying to rule England and Wales as party, but the place they rule the roost from in Scotland is also British Legislated,

That reduces the chances of self determination for the nation and Country of Scotland under our Claim of Right to a suppressed people with no voice.

Lorna Campbell.

It has gone under the radar for a long time that Scotland is governed by two British governments. Not one.

I think Scotland may be more inclined to near a split on joining the EU,

But The British snp party in Scotland trying to gain a foothold across the border might be thinking along the same lines as the Anti brexiteers down south fighting to oust the vote of England and Wales in Westminster.

This Nusnp are not considering putting the vote to the Scottish people should we gain our independence, but rather takes the dictorial position and undemocratic approach of railroading the Scottish people into their policies of war, trans, and the EU.

Andy Ellis

But it’s not guaranteed to be a “limited surrender of sovereignty”. There’s the rub.

Look at the situation in Italy right now. Italian voters have delivered a mandate for radical change to the Italian government.

But it’s not going to happen, because fundamentally, the EU says it can’t be allowed.

Now ask yourself: does Scotland have a cadre of towering intellects and competent managers with their hands on the levers of devolved power, all ready and waiting to take us full throttle to the sunlit uplands of Indy? Does it fuck.

I can see why the dross infesting ScotGov are so keen to hand all the major and difficult decisions to Brussels. The only reason I can see for ordinary Scots to agree with this is that they share the same assessment of ScotGov’s abysmal abilities.

Too wee, too incompetent, a view held by the majority of Scots? That’s a crying shame.

But it’s not guaranteed to be a “limited surrender of sovereignty”. There’s the rub.

It’s not fucking Hotel California! 🙂 There’s an off ramp as our friends down south just showed us.

You’re over estimating the power and will of the EU. If it was so all powerful, it would have slapped down the Hungarians and Poles long since for their anti-democratic stances on judicial independence for example.

With respect to your point about the depth of the talent puddle in Scotland, and the prospects of rule by the likes of the SNP, isn’t that another argument for having more talented EU technocrats doing it properly on our behalf? 🙂

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Oooh oh!

It’s ‘cunt calling!’

I wonder which of his two personalities it is today?

I think I’ll just say ‘hello’ and hang up!

Nah nah na nah nah!

I hung up before he could even say ‘moonhowler’!

It seems that many Countries are beginning to suffer under EU policies and the financial funding given OR withheld to Countries depending wether or not a Country agree with all EU policies,

There is a lack of compassion from the EU to individual Countries that are struggling, and the bigger construction of the EU favours the top down method of politics.

Germany is not doing so well right now, nor is france, Italy, I can see the original EU folding as the smaller Countries want out.

The paragraph doesn’t state that Scotland is an occupied country, I take from it that it merely points alternative views on types of votes, besides the one that you often insist much be the route, even though there’s no laws governing that.

No idea what that word salad even means. Can you say it again in English?

Is it not a fact that we entered into this union in a similar fashion and without the public having no vote on it, and with Scotland being a sovereign nation as it was at the time of joining the union, and still is for that matter. I’d find it very difficult to argue that we cannot leave this union in the same way it came about.

It’s a fact, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to our current situation. We can’t just say because parliament 300 years ago voted for the union, our MPs tomorrow can just vote to dissolve the union. Have at it though if you’re so convinced and see how far you get. What you find hard to argue is neither here nor there really. You’re just some guy online, as for that matter am I.

Actually leaving the union involves a process which will have to be arranged, agreed, put in to operation and accepted not just by Scots, but by the rest of the world…..unless you’re happy to live in the equivalent Northern Cyprus without the sun

Assertion, I doubt you know what would be acceptable and what wouldn’t, the international community had no problems and have had no problems with how we entered the union, a majority of MPs is the only thing we need.

Unfortunately for centuries our MPs have put party and self-interests ahead of Scotland.

Of course I don’t know, it a best guess. You don’t know either. There is no supra national King of the World to impose a solution either, so…..what’s your point caller? That’s right, you don’t have one, because you don’t know what you’re talking about. The international community 300 years ago wasn’t the same.

The international community today doesn’t really give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the Treaties of Union, Claim of Right, Declaration of Arbroath. They’ll be more impressed with a majority of Scots having the balls just to vote for it.

If we keep voting for such feckless MPs is that somebody else’s fault, or our own?

link to wingsoverscotland.com

John Main says:
22 October, 2022 at 2:37 pm

@Ruby 12:31

“Ask the professors”

Does that mean you have abandoned your belief there is only one of us?

Asking for a doppelgänger.

You talkin’ to me you ‘ignorant racist cunt’?

link to wingsoverscotland.com

Oh no! Vichy sellouts!

Any ‘collaboration horizontale’ involved that merits a very, very short haircut?

I do like a good sex scandal and there hasn’t really been one since the Perfumo, Keiller, Mandy Rice affair.

Lord Sewell in his orange bra was getting close but it ended very abruptly.

It would be great if we could hear more about the ‘crime passionnelle’ invovling a ‘fer a repasser’ & loads of french kissing. Ooh la la!

I guess money talks or maybe the expression in this case should be ‘money means no talk’

The people of Scotland did not have a democratic vote that put NS into office.
That she falsely claimed that the Snp were head of the independence movement was echoed in the MSM and Westminster corridors.
And still had that perception until recently when the Snp realised that the independence movement were talking and thinking on a alternative path,

Up pops the illegal code of Conduct where a political party tries to enforce its views on the whole population and nation of Scots.
Even if the people are in another political party or non at all,
like a yellow star principle that would be the ultimate control of the people and thus the grassroots independence movement they had little control of.

This pattern of dictatorship is long standing, and soon enough she would have us in the economical ghettos under surveillance she could.

But this top down unelected politicians dictatorship methods can also be noticed with non elected leaders ( by the people ) in the EU,
Which originally we joined for trade reasons but eventually became all consuming and controlling towards other Countries finances and politics,

I am not surprised that NS has followed the same template for the Scots,
Little by little eating away at the rights of a people, of a nation, of a Country. By a small and steady change of laws that at first go unnoticed until the ideology becomes so large you cannot help but notice the snp misled you in the same way we entered the EU,

No indyref, we should exit the union the way we entered it, it been good enough for Westminster and the international community, for over three-hundred years as to how we entered this union WITHOUT an indyref, it should be good enough for them that we exit it without one.

“What is a fact is that the Scottish people and nation did not vote to join the treaty of the union all.”

James Che.

That is correct, English spy Daniel Defoe, reported widespread rioting on the streets on entering the union, the people were NOT represented, yet the likes of Ellis is adamant that we must have an indyref to leave the union.

“The international community today doesn’t really give a flying fuck at a rolling donut about the Treaties of Union, Claim of Right, Declaration of Arbroath.”

Elis.

And you know this because, or are you guessing again Ellis? checking your past form the latter seems more likely, wouldn’t you agree?

@Ruby 3:56

Pace yourself, otherwise you’ll never see last orders.

Do you have a favourite A&E, or do you prefer the frisson of never knowing where you will regain consciousness of a Sunday morning?

Hey Johnny M, talking of folk getting tired an emotional at the end of the nicht, what’s yer (not)truism for this evening? 🙂

And seeing it’s teatime and some folk may be having chips… Had one of these machines working in the field next to my hoose today. Very impressive display of engineering product at around half a million quid!

2 min vid of modern tattie lifting machine.
link to youtube.com

Now tell me the engineers that designed and built this couldn’t run a country better than the current crop (farming pun) of politicians…

Nick Walsh is the new Hugh Dallas, a cheat and an incompetent. There, just had to get that off my chest, ever since Celtic/Hearts’ first clash of this season. OK! As Yous were, back to politics now. 😉 LOL!

To the founder members of the Bonnie Purple Heather Brigade, continually boring the sane amongst us to death, with their constant repetitive drivel.
Please tell us how we will leave this Union and when?
Please tell us who will govern an Independent Scotland?
Please tell us how the majority of the electorate, who currently do not seek Independence, will simply accept the wishes of the minority.

Mental instability is not pleasant to read or watch.

The non logical boast by the UK parliament site blasts its own foundational existence to smithereans.

Without a Scottish parliament still in existence there is no treaty of the union,

Another act of treachery – an SNP NEC member has told Allan Petrie that the SNP and Greens have agreed that their policy is NOT to move on regaining independence UNTIL there is a Labour government in Westminster which will not interfere with the GRA.

Allan Petrie tweeted this today. [He is an Alba party NEC member.]

Scottish politics is insane and horrifying. For heavens sake – surely there must be some sane, decent SNP MSPs and MPs to oppose the mad dictatorship that is running, no ruining, our lives?

It continues to astound me that those with such a profound dislike of posters here and who make so many disparaging remarks, frequent this site.

I wonder why they don’t have a site all to themselves – maybe they do and no-one visits and they are lonely.

@Ian Brotherhood 9:03pm
I have been on Wings before about infant deaths. We had a red flag, when I commented on that, no response and now another red flag recently. Its how we are set up as a National Health Service. When women in Caithness or Moray decide not to have children should tell you a story. No maternity support there. I have done no research on still births. I am thinking the lost of infants is just as important than any vaccine consideration and associated still births. Of course the lost is equally devastating. Many months ago I commented. Nothing happens in Scotland.

HOW DID THE SNP END UP IN THIS GROTESQUE CUL-de-SAC?

**************************************************************

1. When I joined the SNP in 1974, a mandate for Independence would be obtained when the Party won a majority of the Scottish MPs sent to Westminster. This “Big Bang Theory” was accepted by (almost) everyone, including Margaret Thatcher and, way before her, Winston Churchill. Devolution changed everything in the 1990s when Alex Salmond persuaded most Nationalists (including me) to accept Devolution as a “first step to Independence”. “If only we could show the poor Scottish people that, with limited self-government powers, we could make a go of running things for ourselves, surely the path to full-blooded Independence would be obvious!” This route was to prove an unattainable mirage.

2. Salmond put far too much faith in Nicola Sturgeon in the old days, thinking he could control her. While he attended to constitutional and economics matters as FM, she was his deputy who had free rein over health, social care and other social matters – a huge remit. He trusted her, which he must bitterly regret now! However, she was not on the same personal agenda which I have discovered in my research. Whether they had a “lavender marriage” or not, the Murrells, Peter and Nicola, had a plan for private power and control in political life. I believe Salmond, who is on record as objecting to the pair being at the top of the Party and Government, stated when he was on his way out as FM. It was too late then and the Murrells just ignored him. He should have done something about it when he was in power, not complained afterwards. A few high-profile people, such as Kenny MacAskill, objected but it was also too late. Since then, Sturgeon has successfully ridden two horses as Leader of the Party, with her husband as a mere apparatchik, and, separately, as First Minister, . She has successfully convinced many people – for example within the MSM – that she has Chinese walls in her brain. No pillow talk between the Murrells, of course!

3. One crucial thing that Salmond did was introduce a popular referendum of the Scottish electorate as a necessary step to go through to achieve Independence. “Surely after achieving a majority of SNP MSPs at Holyrood (as in 2011 but not repeated since then) and at Westminster (as in 2015 and thereafter), we could win a referendum of the people”. But it was not to be.

4. This alternative Gradualism (akin to “Steady State Theory” in Physics), plus a a steady Party growth, allowed the SNP to attract: (a) lots of mediocre carpet-baggers who saw a career at Holyrood, one that they couldn’t achieve outside, and (b) lobby and other action groups to latch on to this new rising political movement, not just the usual lefty-liberal types but emerging forces like Feminism, LGBT and others, who seldom saw the pursuit of Independence as their cause, but a suitable “local” vehicle to associate with. These groups returned little to us but Sturgeon (and others) were receptive, new forces within politics to court – and with her particular persona and psyche, she reciprocated.

4. From 1999 to 2007, SNP MSPs were mostly people with real-life baggage with them. In other words, they had earned a living and inhabited the outside world, free from immersion within the political bubble. Salmond did the right thing in 2007 in assembling a pretty competent government who didn’t make too many mistakes. The message was minority, but competent government. Sturgeon was one of the few who didn’t have much experience after she qualified as a solicitor – and a chequered short career it was too. Our circumstances changes in 2011 when in the Scottish Election we were able to “game the electoral system”, winning 69 seats out of 129 (53% of the total) with only 46% of the vote. (Labour choose the wrong “game” by concentrating on constituencies with no dual nominations to constituency and region.)

5. We lost the Independence Referendum in 2014 by 55.3% to 44.7%, a huge margin of 10.6%. In my opinion, Salmond was wrong to resign – stupidly he thought he could still control Sturgeon who was “crowned” with his blessing. Big mistake. The MSP 2011 input had produced a cohort who often thought, largely, that they could rule the world but they had little experience of the actual world outside politics. Few had earned a living in trade, business and the professions. The result has been growing governmental incompetence ever since.

6. Nevertheless, the Government and many MSPs were easy meat for Wokish lobby groups, either due to: their own orientation, being flattered by attention, seeking an easy, cumfy life, or occasionally thinking they were doing good. Also, the Party has been completely corrupted internally, starting in 2017 with the abolition of National Council and the reduction of ordinary member representation and the proliferation of overlapping special interest groups on the NEC. Now NEC controls everything, including direct candidate selection, through the Murrells, Angus Robertson (predictably), Michael Russell (sadly) and several others in the Nicola band of acolytes. Conferences for many years are just Nicola fan-club rallies.

7. There will be no indyref2 next year and Sturgeon and her coterie will play us for sheepish fools until the Party collapses or they leave at their own choice.

This is the story of many organisations, not just political parties. A complete change, either internal generated, or forced upon it, will be required to reverse out this nasty cul-de-sac.

@William G Walker (10.26) –

Thanks for that.

Have posted a link to your comment via Twitter.

Can I ask – what is your take on Swinney?

William G Walker.

A good over view analyses of events with in the Snp.