There is nothing you can do
…that will satisfy the Unionist parties. Last night Ruth Davidson told STV viewers that even getting more than 50% of the vote in a general election wouldn’t give the SNP a mandate to pursue their manifesto policies.
She was echoing the words of Kezia Dugdale just over a year ago:
So that’s clear. Davidson has reversed her previous view. There is now no peaceful democratic avenue by which the people of Scotland could express the wish for a second referendum which the two main Unionist parties would accept. They have EXPLICITLY said, in full public view, that they would reject any democratic mandate.
And that’s frightening.
(50%, we ought to note in passing, is in itself a red herring. That’s not how democracy works. No UK government has achieved 50% of the vote in generations, and indeed it’s 16 years since one even scraped through 40%.)
In many other countries that sort of stance has led to armed insurrection and terrorist violence. In Northern Ireland – not some far-off banana republic but part of the UK – it led to decades of appalling murders and countless thousands of lost and ruined lives. It’s incredibly disturbing that the Tories and Labour appear to want Scotland to be driven down that path by closing down democracy as an option.
The Scottish independence movement has been the most peaceful campaign in the history of national self-determination anywhere on Earth. Not a drop of blood has been spilled in its name in almost 100 years. One guy got hit with an egg one time and that was it. (Though of course the Scottish media portrayed it as somewhere on a par with the Enniskillen bombing anyway.)
We fervently hope that the increasingly demented, belligerent, angry and provocative intransigence of the Unionist parties – along with their constant reckless inflaming of the known violent elements on their own side – does not succeed in what is an ever more apparent aim of changing that fact. There’s nothing they’d love more.
That’s exactly what they want. Divide and Conquer. Rule #1.
I think this was the exact point Bernard was trying to get over. And Ruth Davidson walked right into the trap. Ha ha. And well done Bernard.
The unionists know that peaceful movements have a far higher chance of success than armed struggle. They are goading us into losing our cool and provoking us. No chance.
Think Gandhi, think satire, think happy, joyous marches, think peaceful meetings, think discussion, think Wings.
I’m honestly surprised Ruth Davidson hasn’t gone with the slogan “No Surrender to the SNP”…
Smacks of rearguard action. The yoon ba’ is burst, and they know it. Facial expressions are a dead give away.
Denial of a means to enact self determination is illegal under the ICCPR treaty, of which the UK is a signatory.
They have no constitutional basis to deny it either.
UN time.
It is a thin veneer of civility and respect for democracy, tory British nationalism. May’s publicly called Scots YES vote extremist.
What Terry said.
Ours is a peaceful movement and always will be, no matter how much the Yoons try and stoke and provoke violence.
Davidson – in the words of one Mhairi Black, “You’re talking shite, hen.”
Grenda “No surrender to the SNP”
I bet that IS being said sotto voce in the “right” circles.
It is clear that the unionists have decided that they need to start a civil uprising amoungst the “proud scots” to await a response from nationalists ,so that they can send in the Black and Tans…history repeating itself.. I hope not but .. Westminster never gives in without a fight in its colonies. They have a track record on this going back many centuries. Stick to the democratic path and we will win, they have already lost and they know it.
They have been at this provocation malarkey since 2014…
I personally think that in the event of a yes vote the carry on in George Square was meant to spook Scotland into a wee quiet backtrack of some kind, otherwise look at what could happen.
To get some thing started and see if they could keep it going.
They know violence, they are good at it.
If we are right about Scotland’s wealth and potential,an independent Scotland becomes the main competitor to London and they need to do all that they can to subvert that.
London’s performance is all they have got.
Our job is to keep our own hot head’s in check,we can’t afford to rise to it.
They are much better at this stuff than us,and, while long term they could never win,why go along with their shit.
It would only hold us back.
A Scotland in chaos only leaves the way clear for a London open for business!!!!
IMHO….after a yes vote is in….. the number one priority is to get establishment broadcasting out.
Even then we need to be very very vigilant about who and what takes it’s place.
Something in our Constitution about foreign ownership and restrictions on the percentage of ownership perhaps??
I have suspected for some time that given the near hysterical opposition to Indyref2 for the obvious reason that they know YES will win this time together with the disgusting attempt at Ulsterisation of Scottish Politics that the end game of our colonial masters is that as a last resort they will provoke not just civil disobedience but violence by fair means or foul with the use of agents provocateurs.
This use of their age old strategy of Divide and Rule would suit them perfectly and allow them to impose Direct Rule, closedDown Holyrood and send in the troops.
I trust that Scots will resist this provocation and that any hotheads tempted to fall for it will see sense and resist the temptation.
Contrast the peaceful movement of Scottish independence with the very recent Unionist murder in NI.
Unionists can commit murder but it’s played down.
Ruth the mooth bending the truth as usual.
Nicola S did say a vote for SNP in 2015 was not a vote for indy because at that time we needed a strong Scottish voice to get Smith delivered.
Of course we all know that was a sham but the motions had to be gone through so folk could see it for what it was.
Excellent article.
That needed to be said in a widely read and spoken about forum.
The people of Scotland including unsuspecting Unionists must be made aware of what these people are up to and what they stand for.
I can’t imagine Putin passing up the opportunity for mischief at the UN by calling for sanctions on the UK when they deny a legitimate, democratic request from Scotland for self determination.
I can imagine that May and Ruth and the Tories believe that they are above such low level laws as the UN Charter and that it only applies to countries that don’t speak the Queen’s English.
We need to remember the Battle of George Squuare in 1919. When Churchill sent in English troops and troops from other parts of Scotland to quell what the Brit Government thought was a Bolchevist revolution. Glasgow members of regements were locked down in fear that they would go over to the side of the people. A 10″ Howitzer was set up at City Hall to intimidate the people.
I don’t think it’s too imaginative to foresee the British government doing whatever it needs to do, including not only intimidation, but violence to keep Scotland from becoming independent. Ruth and Kezia have tried lies and false accusations against an amazingly successful Scottish Government. Now they are resorting to intimidation. Where will it go from here?
We must respond as Gandhi and the Indian patriots did during the Salt March in 1930; respond to violence with civil disobedience. We must peace for independence, not fight for it.
The point of a scottish nation – 0
the point of a scottish parliament – 0
the point of scots voting – 0
Oh well i am glad thats cleared that up the unionist parties believe we are just an extention of greater england with funny accents .
I trust we will all sleep better tonight knowing we’re being looked after by another country and their people , how f/kn lucky are we .
They clearly know the game is up but don’t know how to navigate the next few years until Scotland is independent. Their views are very dangerous and clearly illegal under international law.
Scotland will be independent and we’ll achieve it in a peaceful and democratic manner.
Scotland’s very own Ian Paisley there…..”Scotland says NO”
Passive resistance and civil disobedience.
It worked for Ghandi and it will work for us.
RIP Democracy eh Ruthie babes?
One does wonder at the sanity of alienating ones electorate.
Meanwhile I am calming / enjoying myself listening to Runrig , Skippinish, Dougie Mclean ,Gerry Rafferty et al.
What a plethora of talent Scotland has -rarely to be heard on BBBC Scotland or so called Scottish television.
As you could expect Rev Stu, here’s the thing.
Nothing on this Earth could make me other than I am, peaceful, loving and kind. As are the people of Scotland.
The message from me and my kin though is, Independent Scotland is the only way forward.
THAT is what the unionists are up against.
They will not ruffle our feathers. Nothing to ruffle = )
LOVE SCOTLAND = )
LOVE ALL THE PEOPLE OF SCOTLAND : )
Here we go = )
Don’t know if this is happening with anybody else, but can’t access wings, mungain or wee ginger dug from favourites on kindle. Keeps coming up as privacy problem. Works ok with the other favourite sites, only seems to affect Indy sites.
Ruth and Kezia, directed by Theresa May’s handlers, are going down a very dangerous road now. Well done Bernard Ponsonby for calling them out. Glenn Campbell has also seen the implication of what Kezia is saying.
To save democracy, voting SNP is a moral imperative.
So even if Theresa May gets over 50% of the vote she won’t have a mandate?
The follow up question that nobody asks.
Dorethy Devine, what lovely taste in music you have = )
To say britnats like Davidson are arrogant and ignorant is now a massive understatement. Davidson and her ilk are… well, I was going to use the “T” word but I think the Rev still bans it so I’ll use “tractors” because I know you all know what I mean.
With all this violent revolutionary talk in mind..,
Is Mr Cairns up to doing a Delacroix rip off, with NS as Liberty?
Sans tits out. Obvs.
I said it back when Kez said something similar to this, it’s a dangerous line they are pushing. As the article says, when you leave people with no peaceful avenue to take eventually it’ll lead to violence. I’d never condone it personally, but I’m sure there would be some out there who would eventually go down that route if they felt pushed or cornered enough. Let’s hope it never comes to that.
If you know the history of Ireland then you will know that the British State has no problem using its security services or paramilitary groups to incite and carry out acts of violence on its behalf. They then provide material for operations and alibis for all involved. This has happened since the turn of the century and indeed is still happening.
I think you are spot on Rev. The British State wants confrontation to justify intervention. Whilst condemning from afar they then they take back control to Westminster.
Interestingly when Orange Lodge Counsellors were elected the Lodge released a statement declaring these Counsellors were promoting the political interests of the Lodge rather than the Conservative Party.
They are indeed militarising the Unionist movement, so we must keep our cool. Words, not acts of violence will win this battle. I fear nothing or nobody, but experience has taught me that violence is a short term winner only. Longevity comes from peace and resilience.
We must try every road possible.
” One guy got hit with an egg one time and that was it.”
I think this statement may be factually incorect. I seem to recall an older yes supporter getting their arm broken and a pregnant yeser being kicked in the belly.
At the end of her “grilling” on STV did you notice that she winked at Bernard Ponsonby should we read anything into that or does it just show her arrogance.
To me she is an ignorant person who will lie always and not even have the guts to reply to emails which calls her out.
It’s noticeable that some online unionists are become bolder about their loyalist/ orange/ lodge roots. In one way this is a good thing, Scotland is diverse, and if we think of ourselves as at all tolerant we we should welcome it. Engage with our neighbours, let’s not other them.
To add to my previous comment, given the Tories embracing of all things Orange, loyalist and No Surrendery it does start to seem like they are intentionally driving the country down a Northern Ireland type of road. Which if it does eventually come to some sort of violence they’ll inevitably blame on the SNP.
Perhaps that’s their end game? They know they can’t win at the ballot, or they see it as too risky now, so discredit/demonise the SNP by pushing people into violent action. Again, I hope not, but it’s a troubling thought.
O/T. Please Share.
YesBikers for Scottish Independence
21 mins ·
OK GUYS AND GALS ATTENTION PLEASE!!!!!
As you are all aware this Saturday has and is most likely going to be the biggest pro Indy march to date BUT. With all the new roads and constant roadworks in and around glasgow and the showcase especially PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE plan your rout to the showcase especially coming from Edinburgh direction as it is not sign posted BUT THERE IS NO EXIT AT THE SHOWCASE ON THE NEW MOTORWAY. so please plan your route before hand .
Entry to Showcase Cinema Via Langmuir Rd A752 .
During the last indy referendum I was talking to a corporate lawyer who was up on holiday from London. He told me that the biggest impact of Scotland gaining independence was that it was being achieved via the ballot box would have a huge impact around the world and was something that was somehow very worrying to London. Guess there’s no money in peaceful revolution.
He fully supported Scotland’s independence as he thought would be a great example to other countries.
It is very worrying that our political leaders are so eager to shut down democracy.
Sadly I have been thinking this for years, that those among us the so-called Proudscots of the Tory, Labour and Liberal parties are so deranged that they will gambit straying from democracy to block the peoples emancipation at any cost.
Yes our political liberty and emancipation is at risk here folks.
The Media of Scotland really need to wake up to this and be very, very careful in taking the Westminster line to frustrate legitimate political struggle. That includes Ponsonby, Campbell, McKay and the rest.
Frustrating Democracy is not clever at all. I cant understand why our commentators are being so cute & coy about challenging this head on ?
Did anyone seriously think the tories/establishment were going to let Scotland peacefully get their independence. Not their modus operandi.
I heard a Tory on Sky Adam Boulton earlier say: Sacrifices have to be made in order to project Britains power around the world and maintain it’s position as a global leader
When I hear Tories talk like that I know exactly what they mean and who is going to be sacrificed for “Britains” greater good, and it’s never the ones who say this stuff or their children
The UN is the only peaceful route but remember the Brits only respect what they want to if or when it suits them
They’ll bend over backwards for the Irish because they fear a return to the days when they pissed off the Irish too much, instead of talking to the Irish they bullied them
Scotland will get the bullying treatment heavy duty because they don’t fear us
Now I would not suggest repeating the Irish answer to the Brits but I might suggest not telling them that and making them feel so comfortable they can do whatever they like
One last thing, Britain ALWAYS negotiates with the people they like to call terrorists, and we’re already at extremist level and even ultra extremist separatists and many other names they’ve dreamed up for us
See, you can be a really big terrorist like Saudi Arabia or America and the Brits see that as an opportunity and decide to forgive all sins in the justifiable name of commerce
Unlike the establishment parties and their support, we do respect the concept of peaceful democracy and democratic mandate.
Let’s keep it that way.
iPod-Mori poll ” scotgoes pop”
SNP 43
Tories 25
Slab 25
Ldims 5
Greens 1
Great points made in this WoS article! Ever since RD started wittering on about fratricide and now courting the yoon vote, it has always been a fear in my mind that violence will be the next tactic from their playbook. If anyone wants an idea of what could be, then only look back to the scenes from George Sq after the Indy vote in Sept 2014. That is not our Scotland.
As always, it is important to remember, hope over fear!
Brian macleod 11.04am exactly brian,a bit like the loyalist/mi5 collusion murder of pat finucane irish human rights lawyer.aye there is no level to which these agent provocateurs/murderers won’t stoop.
The unionists are going down a very dangerous road – I wrote to everyone I could think of when RD made her speech at the David Hume Institute when she made her “People do not want Brexit to be used to start yet another fratricidal conflict” comment and wrote to the PM, the Conservative Head Office, RD, and the Presiding Officer in SP as well as the police saying I regarded her language as incitement. It was also a complete lie.
I received a reply on behalf of the PM thanking me for my letter and taking the time to get in touch. The other replies were just as bland and did not address what she had said at all. That was in Feb 2017 and the situation is just getting worse. RD knows what she is doing and that makes her an even more dangerous and sad person. She knows she cannot win by reasoned debate because she knows Scotland has been treated abyssmally – just think McCrone or read MT’s biography when she stated that Scotland would have been so rich with oil it would have been embarrassing and labour people were just as guilty because they knew too.
We are not stupid and we are not aggressive or violent and will not be verbally bullied by people who should know better. They just make it more and more obvious every day that they believe independence will come for Scotland and this is what scares them. I do not see any of the other countries who became independent in the last century queuing up to rejoin the UK.
We will just continue to make our case and treat everyone with respect and love.
The behaviour by the Unionists in George Sq after the referendum result was a clear provocation. The police didn’t cover themselves in glory. The two sisters who defiantly stood with their saltire were not protected by the police, worse, they were arrested – for their own safety – I believe was the reason given.
There are +20 Tory candidates standing for election who were facing prosecution for excess spending – the Electoral Commission had already issued a fine on the Tory party, that action surely indicates wrongdoing, perhaps complicit rather than wilful individual wrongdoing by these +20 candidates, that these individuals are being allowed to stand for election by the Tory party is a pointer to it’s moral compass.
Keep the Heid has to be our mantra, for sure we will be provoked.
Macart says:
31 May, 2017 at 11:50 am
“we do respect the concept of peaceful democracy and democratic mandate.”
Well said, Peace Always my Friend.
I’ve long said this next election would see 1 Parliament remain, Holyrood or Westminster. One way or another, I think its coming to pass.
If the Tories get in, then there is a clear and present danger that Holyrood will be ransacked of power ( cloaked as “realignment due to Brexit”) at the very least or indeed removed altogether and sold off as a Hotel.
Don’t kid yourself our democratic rights matter, they only matter to us and Westminster ( including Labour, Lib Dems ) will crush anything that dares annoy them.
All this talk of UN etc
How exactly does that or how exactly would that happen then? How do you see this working..genuinely interested as I reckon (and fear) Scots apathy could be bigger than any anger should Westminster duly stick the boot in.
There are no dark places the British State won’t visit in order to try to deny self-determination.
Divide & conquer is their nice side, tanks on the streets just shows they care, creating violence a means to an end (ghastly business but what can one do with these savages?).
They don’t understand the world has changed & Britannia is now on the outside, alone & toothless. If there’s one thing all Scots excel at it’s being thrawn – our genetic stubborn will means we keep putting one foot in front of the other, each step will bring a peaceful Indy closer.
Looking forward to the rally this Saturday – peace and good humour all the way! That’s how it should be done, and how we will eventually prevail! 🙂
I paraphrase only slightly, but did not Sir Nicholas Macpherson say of the 2014 campaign that ‘when the territorial integrity of the British state is impugned, the normal rules do not apply’.
That was – ostensibly – about civil service impartiality. Does anyone believe they would now apply ‘rules’ to prevent themselves resorting to darker and more sinister forms of threat, machination and coercion?
The tories appear to be pressing eveyone’s buttons except the SNP and Corbyn.
Scottish labour may as well merge with the tories. labour have the cheeck to call themselves progessive, what is progressive about placing jack boot on top of democracy?
It’s a pity Kezia had not embraced her right wing credentials sooner and gone and joined the tories!
Peaceful we are and peaceful we remain = )
Peace always folks =)
IN THE WORDS OF ONE OF WINGS’S GREATS = )
Excellent, Stu. You’re amazing.
How we still struggle with the Emperor’s new clothes.
As we all know, when Unionism is under pressure, what is otherwise covered up, is revealed. What we are seeing openly displayed by May, Davidson and Dugdale is a refusal to apply democracy to Scotland. The method of refusal is by simply refusing to accept the truth. By so doing, Unionism is refusing to engage in the necessary process through which the purpose and effects of democracy are made real.
This is how the British deal with their Colonies. It is how they retain power and control over Scotland and retain a secure platform for the continuous exploitation of Scotland’s vast natural wealth and at the same time provide themselves with the security blanket known as Trident.
That just leaves the brainwashing. Sorted. According to the English, Scotland has no wealth and is dependent on the kindness of England to support it through charitable donations, known as the Barnet formula.
Scotland’s historic tragedy is that too many believed the Colonial fairy story whereby the Crown will save the natives from impoverishment in exchange for control of the land and sea and everything on it, in it and under it. In 2017 however, fewer and fewer Scots believe in English fairies, hence the antics of May, Davidson and Dugdale when confronted with the truth.
We now live in the time for self-determination for Scots. That’s about all there is to it. In resisting, the English reveal their true colours as a nation of plunderers and liars.
May, Davidson and Dugdale only talk the way they do because they dont realise we can see them as they are. They are naked, dressed only in lies.
In complete contrast, Nicola is clothed in the truth. Everyone can see that. Except of course those who are blind to the truth, the principal effect of propaganda.
The British Unionist Establishment is the Emperor and he is stark naked. Very soon, the European Brexit negotiators, who don’t believe British Propaganda, will tell us just how naked our Colonial Masters are.
Ruth the Mooth and the Dug well they might as well strap on the swastikas and put on the jackboots and be done with it. It is a nice day here so I think I will go out and do some goose-stepping for them but I doubt that even that would remove the sneering scowls from their faces.
Peaceful means and a referendum are the route of choice, if that does not work or Yoons resort to violence t5hen UDI would be just as fine. If the really resort to violence, I spent 29 years in South Africa and I am well versed in the use of shotguns, rifles, automatic weapons and handguns. Would I want to resort to that no, but if someone threatens my life, well hands are well trained too.
Looks like the yoons are gearing up for a false flag occurence or something, be very convenient especially before the GE, but definitely if any independence referendum #2 was set in stone.
Obviously the tactic right now is to distract, from their no policy GE, just SNP bad and while we are at it, and they are at it, outright no to these pesky Scots, to create at some outrage. Stirring that big wooden spoon. Win seats back at the GE, job done they thinks.
Desperate.
Re Saturday’s Rally it is to be hoped that troublemakers do not turn up – I think we all know who I mean.
However, if they do turn up it is imperative that nobody reacts to any violent provocation and leaves dealing with it to the forces of law and order.
The view of the people does not matter. The unionists have 99percent of the media.
This is our modern democracy…the unionist media and politicians will decide our future…forever!
The Scottish Parliament democratically decided there should be another referendum. That should be the issue settled – unless the Scottish Parliament voted to change that decision – which it hasn’t.
UK unionist party leaders in Scotland all refuse to accept that democratic decision. The UK Govt won’t discuss it.
If the new UK Govt – after 8 June 2017 – will not accept that democratic decision, then what then?
Nicola Sturgeon would not answer that. NS says it will be unsustainable for the (presumed) Tory Govt to continue to deny Scottish democracy. That is also a presumption.
Some say she should not have to answer that hypothetical question just yet. Fair enough: Don’t play all your cards too early etc.
If NS is wrong and a future UK Govt continues to block another indi-ref, then there are choices:
1. Accept WM is sovereign. But keep complaining in the hope that one day the UK Govt will back down and issue a Section 30. Basically, the same situation as now.
2. Assert Scotland’s sovereign right to self-determination as a country. We don’t need permission from the UK Govt. The Scottish Parliament is Scotland’s democratic voice.
The pro-Scottish democracy candidates stand on a mandate of Scottish self-determination in an election: Scotland’s Parliament will have the power to decide on Scotland’s constitutional future if a majority of candidates are elected on this manifesto.
Thus, if they win a Scottish election it gives them the mandate to declare that Scotland’s Parliament has the authority to decide to hold independence referendums – or declare UDI – if MSPs democratically votes for these.
After the election we can see what the UK Govt says. We can than see the SNP’s / Scottish Govt’s response.
If things don’t go well, I support option 2.
Looks like the Mori poll is finally a regular Scottish poll too not just a sub-sample or one of the more offbeat Survey Monkey type things.
It would appear to suggest that the SNP vote is holding rock steady at 43% and the Tories are dropping, as they are across the UK.
Bad news for Ruth. She might not even come second.
I see Corbyn has said he will do the debate tonight so May really does look like a bag of wind, afraid to face up questions.
If this election ends up as a hung parliament I think the Tory grandees might be a tiny bit upset with May. 🙂
I was wondering why they are so angry all the time.. Do they see polling that we don’t? Ruth watp Davidson doesn’t do well under pressure..
Did anyone see the channel 4 reporter ask Nicola the question” Why is Ruth Davidson so good?”.. I was gobsmacked!
winifred mccartney@12.00
Excellently put Winifred. 🙂
Some great comments in response to a great article. Have a sunny day all.
Peace always, where is small axe?
O/T but is it too soon to get odds on the next conservative party leader? May is finished even if she wins the election as she has been shown to be weak and unstable. Credit where its due this is smart politics by Corbyn http://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-to-take-part-in-live-tv-debate-10899431
Brilliant decision by Corbyn to take part in tonight’s debate – one has to laugh.
Wibbly Wobbly Giraffe Woman left sawing through the branch on which she is sitting.
I look forward to the reaction from the Tories.
I know that it is too much to hope for but it would be great if those participating go easy on attacking Corbyn and in unison knock spots of the absentee.
This has been one of the strangest election campaigns I can remember. I can’t remember another instance of where the divergence been Scotland and Rumpuk has been so clearly demonstrated or where the campaign has taking so many twists.
Theresa May and Ruth Davidson began very ebulliently, Ms Davidson knowing her boss would win and that she would be elevated to fame on May’s coat tails. That’s changed and both are looking weak and wobbly. Davidson’s harsh shoutiness has returned and the guffawing laughter and silly faces have left the stage.
Jeremy Corbyn seems to be making great strides in England and Wales, but Kezia Dugdale cuts an abject figure, whether she’s shrilly urging Labour voters to consider if they should actually vote Labour at all or appearing ill at ease in weird photo ops.
The Liberals seem to be courting votes from the flora and fauna of Scotland.
In this country the SNP will probably lose a few seats, unfortunately. The Tories might pick up a few. Labour and the Liberals should hold on to what they have. In England and Wales it looks like the Tories could be in trouble, unless Corbyn wins the election for them. May should have been on a winner after the Manchester bombing, but she seems able to achieve very little.
Interesting.
Communication it seems to me is the key.
We didn’t all go away after the no vote, because we communicated? with each other.
We didn’t have to rely on the MSM to tell us how things were going for the vow.
It’s not only those who are at home during the “right” hours who can see what’s going on in Westminster or Holyrood anymore.
We can also share with each other what we have found out and offer an opinion on it.
For the first time Scotland was able to take a good look at the Westminster form of government to see if it wanted to ratify the Treaty arrangements of 1707,as they were explained to us????
We did this peacefully and without violence, but and it’s a big but, we kept watching and talking…..3 years it lasted.
So aye from a Westminster point of view,
We will stay for….
3 years if they keep it peaceful
But they get over 3 centuries when they use force..
Seems to me it’s obvious that they will revert to force.
I am thinking that’s? why they have always encouraged/allowed this pretendy soilders thing to go on, espically in and around our largest population centres?.
Under normal circumstances those institutions would be an insulating slur on the police and the military and their ability to keep us safe.
The inference being a loyal group of men are required to keep the order of things, men who won’t surrender, by default implies that the police/army would.
Yet strangely enough no one ever asks if that’s why they think are there.
Do they believe that our Police and Armed Services are shit and only “they” by refusing to surrender can save the country!!! really???
I think that they are humoured and tolerated? be used as and when the establishment need them.
There will be an attempt to stir trouble and these so called loyalists group’s will be used and used badly.
By an establishment that doesn’t and never has given a shit about them really.
All we can do…. is make it clear ” we are no playin pal, we’ve a country tae build “!!!
So we keep talking and talking about the Yes movement not being interested in going down that route.
I suspect that because we can communicate, better now, than that at any point in history…..civil disobedience will be much more effective and much more imaginative than it’s ever been any way,and it’s certainly much more inclusive.
Every demographic can participate… violence is a young man’s game mostly…..
But being governed ONLY by the consent of the governed… everyone can do that.
How do we know ? Well … A V Dicey told Westminster this, a very long time ago,in the bit Jacob Receec Mogg never talks about.
BBC r4 vote tory lunchtime news says its going to be 50-70 tory majority June 8. Apparently tory thinkers like tory ex senior vice tory party chairman thought 150 tory majority was too high perhaps. Why has May ducked another tv debate, not asked by tory beeb gimps?
Kezia says she hears things all the time on the doorstep regarding a second referendum and runs with that feedback even though there is no evidence that she is telling the truth.
Does she not realise how sad and insulting that is to the voters of Scotland who have given a mandate to the SG to hold a referendum and it has been passed through parliament and she comes on to national tv and spews out whatever comes into her head.and thinks we should believe her.
What a state the Labour Party is in when this women is all they’ve got to represent them in our Parliament.
It would appear to be a malaise throughout Blis. I was at a hustings in Argyll and the Labour candidate was so poorly versed up on anything and at one point he had a bit of a barny with the audience, he had no idea how to act in a debate. Nobody agreed with anything he said and he even beat Alan Reid to last place.
As others see us. Currently on a boat sailing between Sweden, Denmark and Norway. Flying the pre 1707 ensign (red with saltire in top corner instead of the butcher’s apron). At each harbour locals come and speak to us and unprompted ask when we think Scotland will become independent, express astonishment that the vote was lost in 2014, then move on to Brexit and laugh at the silly decision before concluding with uncomplimentary remarks about Mrs May comparing her most unfavourabley with Nicola. Why is it people from near neighbour independent countries can so easily see what the Con/Lab/Lib unionist numpties who have a vote in Scotland cannot see? It is a real mystery.
I hope all this tory talk about not respecting the voters opinions comes back to haunt them. They said the same re the Scottish Parliament,useful to remember when they want re elected to it.
Red Squirrel.
“There are no dark places the British State won’t visit in order to try to deny self-determination.”
I hope that is not true.
As I’m sure others can as well, I can think of some horrendous ‘final solutions’ to their Scottish problem, if the currently ruling ultra Britnat cabal are psychopathic enough.
Cruella now in her safe south west giving her speil. She looks worried now,really worried.
If we have to contemplate UDI at some date then we have to be in control of the public revenue otherwise the Haves who are in the majority in Scotland will see their lifestyle under threat and the Have-nots will fear there will be no public funds to pay their pensions, benefits, etc.
The fact is so many of us are comfortably off middle class who own our homes and are unlikely to support UDI unless the Scottish government has already control of all necessary public funding before Independence.
Annual Ground Rent which could be introduced by the Scottish Parliament under existing devolved powers should would provide that control and drive the necessary fiscal wedge between the rUK and Scotland.
She who holds the purse has the power.
The SNP conference changed party policy on this. Time for our Leaders to develop this without any delay. A consultation could be opened until October 2017, followed by a bill in January 2018 with the law coming into force April 2019 just in time for the Scottish People with more money in their pockets able to assess Brexit et al.
The UN resolution on decolonisation, adopted by the general assembly 1960. There may be a few comforting thoughts in there:
Recognizing the passionate yearning for freedom in all dependent peoples and the decisive role of such peoples in the attainment of their independence,
Aware of the increasing conflicts resulting from the denial of or impediments in the way of the freedom of such peoples, which constitute a serious threat to world peace,
Considering the important role of the United Nations in assisting the movement for independence in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories,
Recognizing that the peoples of the world ardently desire the end of colonialism in all its manifestations,
Convinced that the continued existence of colonialism prevents the development of international economic co-operation, impedes the social, cultural and economic development of dependent peoples and militates against the United Nations ideal of universal peace,
Affirming that peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law,
Believing that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in order to avoid serious crises, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,
Welcoming the emergence in recent years of a large number of dependent territories into freedom and independence, and recognizing the increasingly powerful trends towards freedom in such territories which have not yet attained independence,
Convinced that all peoples have an inalienable right to complete freedom, the exercise of their sovereignty and the integrity of their national territory,
Solemnly proclaims the necessity of bringing to a speedy and unconditional end colonialism in all its forms and manifestations;
And to this end Declares that:
1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.
2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.
6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.
Very frightening stuff. These video clips need to be sent to every computer in the UK. In Scotland the words should be printed out and put through every door in the country using the title “Unionist Parties cancel Scottish democracy”.
FFS what next, Yoons in black or brown uniforms.
BJ says:
31 May, 2017 at 1:33 pm
Kezia says she hears things all the time on the doorstep regarding a second referendum and runs with that feedback even though there is no evidence that she is telling the truth.
She ought to stop canvassing her own house and get out more. 🙂
Had to send the URL for this article to everyone in my computer address book.
admiral @ 1.52
Thing is she is no hearing that in her own house,well the one she grew up in anyway… LOL
To recount, they only agreed to IndyRef1 because they were certain they would win.
Firstly the polls looked good for them at the beginning.
However, they also had a plan to be enacted if things got close. Everyone knew DevoMax was the preferred way forward for the largest group. They only had to offer it as part of the NO package, and a win was theirs. They did. They lied about actually delivering it.
They didn’t play anything like straight when they were odds on to win. The democratic process was thoroughly abused.
Now roll forward to a world of broken promises, austerity, social cruelty, far right Tory rule, and Hellish Brexit likely. Does anyone think the Unionists believe they are likely to win a straight Indy versus Brexit Union referendum? They certainly won’t!
So now they say it can’t/shouldn’t/won’t happen – because when it does happen, their Union is over.
Westminster and Unionists really don’t do democracy, it’s for foreigners. They do rule by elites, dictat, and elected minorities.
My hope is that the EU sticks up for its own citizens in the coming negotiations and that includes the Scots and Irish who want to remain EU citizens.
IMO it would be reasonable for post negotiation referendums in Scotland and NI … as part the EU deal. Oversight by the EU/UN and result held as binding by them.
“All your base are belong to us” – Ruth
Why do you think the forces based in Scotland have been reduced, they are playing a sleekit game in case things go wrong for them.
They have had an awful lot of practice and will have strategies galore to help them suppress the people.
However these never seem to have won in the long term, just remember all who have challenged the British state for Independence have gone on to win.Exception being the construct of Northern Ireland,which does what it was designed to do,slit Ireland. Even that may now be on a shaky peg.
In Scotland they will be hard to remove, because this has been a 300 year old occupation. They are deep in every institution we have and constantly promote Westminster wishes in many underhand ways.Scots know that now, but did not realise how deep it goes until recent years, our eyes are now open.
We need to involve the UN, and we also need independent monitors in place to ensure we are not subject to their cheats, trickery and outright threats.No more pussyfooting, the world needs to know just how the vampire state of the UK really works.
Democracy is not something they need nor want.
However, we sure do.
Terry @ 10:42,
I especially like the “satire” suggestion. The more ridiculous the Unionists look (or make themselves look), the less support they will get. When people start laughing at you, you’ve really lost.
Greannach @ 13:12
“Rumpuk” – it took a second for my penny to drop, not having ever seen it before, but it’s much more ridiculous-sounding than rUK, so I like!
(Split Ireland)-typo
Can we please stop referring to UDI? This is a term unionists use to disparage independence seeking supporters – they wish to draw a comparison with Ian Smith and Rhodesia in the 1960s.
The term we should be using is “legally dissolve the Treaty of Union” as a result of countless breaches by the other party to the Treaty.
Kezia visits Mr and Mrs Addams and their family a lot because I believe they have values
Boom Boom!
According to the Times “front page with foty) as Nicola Sturgeon was presenting her manifesto new figures emerged to show the SNHS in meltdown
I read no further
Ruth Davidson says she’ll keep the Union together even if she has to fight for it
I think it’s pretty plain what she’s getting at, or is it inciting
Bring the army in to Scotland?
Do they no know we’ve got eggs!
Unleash hens!
Has anyone asked Rape Clause Ruth the following:
“If a new political movement stood, in either a Holyrood or Westminster election, whose sole manifesto pledge was to hold a second independence referendum and they subsequently won either a majority of seats or of votes in Scotland, would she still say it was an unwanted referendum”?
If not, then why is it different when it is one of many manifesto pledges (as in 2015 & 2016)? If so, then how the hell can she call herself a Democrat???
Amber Rudd will lose the Blue Tories half a million votes.
The Tories are crashing and burning, which I whimsically mused a few weeks ago during May’s ‘Now is not the Time’, phase.She makes Corbyn look like the Cary Grant of politics.
In the space of 48 hours Rennie, Dugdale, and Davidson thrice denied the sovereignty of the Scottish Government, and the cock did not crow.
Mundell’s and Brown’s greatest devolved parliament the world has ever seen, apparently is not.
What does it say about the Branch Managers that they are still pocketing the cash to destroy Scotland, and deny the democratic process?
Latest forecast 50 SNP MPs.
What then?
@Graeme McCormick
re : Annual Ground Rent
Wouldn’t any “extra” money raised within Scotland then see a re-adjustment in the Westminster block grant, and therefore no actual extra money in total?
Not sure if that means we have more or just the same monetary powers mind you.
Aye, the Unionist parties just arnie interested in Scotland’s future. They’re only ever interested in that of the current UK. Democracy for Scotland within the current UK is not available.
Sure, be outraged, feel angry, get motivated… but keep the peace.
Always.
General Election day is the best way to express the above emotions, by marking an X beside your candidate whose party can offer you freedom of choice for Scotland.
Headlong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ke1I94kUX4s
Clive Scott in Scandinavian waters says: “Why is it people from near neighbour independent countries can so easily see what the Con/Lab/Lib unionist numpties who have a vote in Scotland cannot see? It is a real mystery.”
A mystery, Clive, which may be solved after Independence perhaps, as the British addiction to secrecy, shared my most who commit crime, ebbs south.
As for today and tomorrow, how many in Scotland would entrust the management of the next Independence Referendum to this Tory Government which has a record of conduct against the poor, the handicapped, the disabled and the unemployed which borders on the criminal and is on an industrial scale.
Q. Is this Conservative government of such high morality and solid ethical principles, that it would never contemplate subverting democracy by interfering in a Scottish referendum, especially one in which unimaginable wealth is at stake?
A. No.
Q. And can anyone point out to me the moment when the Conservative party of the 2010 Government, which, it is widely reputed, administered the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum impeccably, underwent such a radical collapse of moral fibre and morphed into its present disgraceful condition?
A. No one.
Then logic compels the conclusion that the finding that IndyRef14 produced a trustworthy result is unreliable, to say the least. The leopard did not change his spots.
If the people of Scandinavia were astonished at the 2014 result, what will they think if the Referendum of 2019 is also lost, again under Unionist administration?
How long will it be before the political classes in Scotland cease to trust the Unionist Establishment so implicitly.
Clive, I wish you fair winds in your sails and a benign sea beneath your hull, and the safe enjoyment of your trip in the lands where people see the obvious. Perhaps Scotland will be one such land soon.
Artyhetty says:
31 May, 2017 at 12:59 pm
winifred mccartney@12.00
“Some great comments in response to a great article. Have a sunny day all.
Peace always, where is small axe?”
Smallaxe is here, loving the amount of Wingers talking Peacefully about Peace. Peace is the only way, Love the unionists and Fascists out of our Peaceful and Beautiful Kindom Nation! Peace and Love confuses the hell out of them, they don’t know how to fight it. 🙂
Peace and Love Always to ALL Peace Loving People
History has proved time and again that the the UK government is not bothered how many people are killed and maimed, this was proved most recently by the IRA who for years bombed left right and centre and it wasn’t until they hit Canary Wharf and other establishment targets which was costing the cash that the negotiations started.
Logical conclusion? If a referendum is not allowed the most effective way forward is to hit soft industrial and commercial sites.
IE. Electricity and water supplies to England over the border.
Whilst I don’t condone this I can see this happening,
Arse covered!
Just caught a snippet of tRuthless speaking to Gordon Brewer (today?)
She comes across as a basket case!.
Even Gordon interrupted her long-playing record of ‘ I can stop the SNP and her long list of failures of the SNP guff’ to say
‘But they won the election!’
She didn’t even pause for breath… and answered with only a vote for me and my party can stop the SNP. She just comes across as petty, desperate and STUPID.
The previous information on the BBC website is all about T May and J Corbyn, talk of leaders’ debates, policies, hung parliaments and she is rattling on about Independence…
Totally inept!
Some-one needs to inform Davidson and Dugdale that point blank refusing to respect the will of the people, and telling the people they can’t have what they voted for is not democracy, it’s dictatorship.
“Ruth Davidson says she’ll keep the Union together even if she has to fight for it.”
Go on Ms Davidson. Get in your tank and get to work. Because we will not be in any tanks. But we WILL stand in front of your tanks to defend our democracy. What will you do then Ms Davidson? Blow defenseless people out of your way? Because that is precisely what you will have to do if you want to “fight” for your precious Union. You will have to slaughter defenseless civilians here in Scotland. There is a word for that, Ms Davidson, up there in your Brit tank. You are on the road to genocide.
You want to do that, Ms Davidson? Really? If so, just remember this:
http://imgur.com/IHOhW6L
What this article illustrates (and very well) is that all this Unionist talk of “no mandate” is merely a thin veil over what they really think, which is “no, never”. But they know that they can’t actually say that out loud, since they are afraid it would provoke a rightful backlash (especially if said by an English politician like May).
They are afraid and in denial, but wearing increasingly threadbare clothes, desperately trying to claim that somehow it’s “we” who don’t want it when it’s actually only them that don’t want it, and for a staringly obvious reason.
They are running very scared now that they can’t win a second indyref. Their false scares and lies will all come back to haunt them, and they will lose.
FEART.
@Cybie
We’ll fight them on the eggbox, we’ll scramble the troops, We’ll fry them, we’ll boil
Too much?
Wouldn’t the worlds media just die laughing if we came out in force and threw eggs and flour at the sojers
Total irrelevant to the big picture. Just wait until
real Brexit begins to bite and the English economy starts
to crackle and burn.
At that point they will concede anything to the Scottish government to prevent anymore damage to their economy from the EU.
My thoughts a few days ago…
https://anindependentscotsman.wordpress.com/2017/05/27/ruth-davidson-playing-the-sectarian-card/
Theresa May: “A vote for me and my team is a vote to blah, blah, blah … ”
Ruth Davidson: “A vote for me and my party is a vote to blah, blah, blah … ”
These people will never belong in the category of thinkers – their every utterance leaves me with a feeling in my gut akin to that which must have been felt by the cowpunchers of the wild west when they witnessed the arrival of the first sheep farmers.
@Dr Jim,
We can have our very own ‘Thistle Revolution’
If they are so sure that ‘now is not the time’ and the majority of the Scottish people don’t want independence then why not just hold a referendum?
Simples!
If they’re right, they will win it with a landslide.
Mind you, they felt they were going to win this General Election with a landslide now I read today that T May has been asked if she will stand down if there is a hung parliament. She’s even saying that if people vote anything other than tory, there could be a hung parliament!!!
Apparently there is an all out attempt for labour to win East Reading, only a 6,500 majority for con. Huge crowd turned out for Corbyn.
To quote John Lennon…
“When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you – pull your beard, flick your face – to make you fight. Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor.”
To destroy our own infrastructure is as stupid as rioting,and someone sent to repair it could get hurt.
We must be smarter than that.
I agree that revenue rasing legislation should be good? to go when we are out,but would also caution that it probably would be deducted from the block Grant,if put in place first.
Also doesn’t the bill for policing any disruption get sent to Holyrood….so why would Westminster care?.
We need to create an alternative economy, remember how spooked they got with the peer to peer lending thing a few years back?
Prevent revenue from getting to Westminster…
Why it’s almost like keeping more of your own money.
So you can choose what to spend it on!
We already have “other” economic activity and Westminster are never done telling everyone how much revenue is lost,and it’s a lot,a very lot.
But those are mostly illegal,we need to identify leagal ways of keeping money from flowing south.
For example get rid of loyalty cards….. advertising won’t pay as much for our shopping history.
One bank account and one credit card only
But local business in a points scheme like the OLD co-op system if they? join the Scottish alternative economy!
Stuff like that is where we begin to disengage from Westminster in the absence of a vote.
Oh and actually demanding our shop’s take the euro….a fully trade able currency I believe.
A kind of Pay Pal barter system for services between our selves and cash payments where possible.
Disengage from the UK economy don’t damage Scotland or any Scots.
I have said previously that when Wibbly Wobbly May gets knifed in the back that whether you agree or not with her politics Rudd is my tip for the top Tory job.
Try to think who else she could send into the firing line instead of herself for tonight’s debate – Boris, Fox, Davis, Hunt, Fallon, Gove, Duncan-Smith, Rees-Mogg, Redwood, Cash?
I suppose she could send in The Chancellor but he seems to have fallen out with her and in any case is a bit of a busted flush after his budget fiasco.
On the strength of the news output of the past few years and the ever more mental statements from supposed party leaders and public representatives of the establishment parties, I’d say most normal folk would have a ready response by this point.
Walk out. Walk away and tell them to get on with it. Tell them they could have their union. Disband the Holyrood parliament. Forget decades of effort attempting to bring democracy to the people. Let Westminster enact any legislation it wanted and allow the population to feel its full unabridged, undiluted effects.
Let the corporations rob the public blind, frack the bejebus out of the central belt, empty the oceans of fish and fossil fuels. Send our human and civil rights back to the stone age if they will. Remove every benefit and service at point of need and allow them to balance the books they themselves wrecked on the backs of the aged, the infirm, the poor and basically anyone who hasn’t the strength or a voice to complain.
When you hear barking mental cases tell you they’d fight to protect something which has catastrophically failed those its supposed to serve, govern and protect in peace and safety. When they would raise their hands against their own people, their own communities, then you know reason, ethics, morals and simple human empathy are well beyond them. They don’t apply in their world view.
That there are those who actually do choose to stand for public office in the face of such injustice is a miracle. That they put up with everything the media and the political class throw at them and attempt to stem or mitigate the shit storm of disastrous legislation, misplaced anger, deceit, criminal negligence, ignorance and arrogance and go back for more, because it’s the right thing to do? I don’t honestly know what that would take. What kind of dedication, belief or courage. Knowing what you’re going to walk into every day you’re in office and exactly what you’re up against.
Takes someone special to do that I’d say. It’d be a shame to appreciate their efforts only when they’re gone and you don’t have them watching your back anymore. Be a shame if when you needed protecting, there was no one you could count on or call upon.
Maybe some readers could and should think about that. What if there were no SNP, or Greens, or YES movement? Do people truly believe Scotland would be a better place right now?
If these two parties continue this line then I am sure there will be renewed calls within SNP for UDI. It is difficult bit achievable. What Davidson is saying is already a breach of article 1541 of UN charters of the rights of nations to secede from a larger union of nations.
They continue this at there constitutional peril. This is made very clear in SNP manifesto page 29 where it says ….any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice……….would be democratically unsustainable.
So that is the marker line drawn.
We will see over the next 18 months to 30 months how this works out. One thing is sure the UK union is ending its just a matter of when.
@meg merrilees 3:31 PM
Of course they are sure that ‘now is not the time’.
As far as they are concerned, the right time will arrive when Scottish oil reserves are exhausted.
Liz g @3.52
I don’t think anybody would propose damaging or destroying Scotland’s infrastructure in the event of a tragic descent into violence.
If the Unionists persist in their denial of democracy to Scotland it may become necessary to resort to civil non-violent disobedience but that should not take place in Scotland. It would be done to do as much financial damage and inconvenience south of the border.
How about a modern day equivalent of The Jarrow March of the 1930s – A Peaceful March For Scottish Democracy From Holyrood To Westminster.
If the marchers were to be assailed en route and resisted the temptation to retaliate it could attract the sort of worldwide attention the marches led by Martin Luther King in the 60s achieved..
Dr.jim 2.15pm. ‘Bring the army into Scotland ‘ Any serving scotsman or woman with an iota of pride or decency should refuse to carry out any orders against an invasion of their country. No military prison would be big enough to hold them .
Liz g @ 15:52:
Actually that’s a notion I have been thinking about also. As well as having our own currency proper, an iScotland would have the power to enact such a measure. It wouldn’t need to be compulsory, though, just voluntary. It would be great for the tourist trade; many businesses would be very happy to do it.
Gus 1940,i like your style of thinking.
It does make ye wunner whether the Tories really want to be holding the Brexit baby. Curious this surge for Corbyn on the back of the most hostile media (well we win that one here) in England against him.
We’re not going to turn on one another in Scotland, Dugdale and Harrison are eating themselves alive, I was really quite disturbed by Dugdale’s lecturing of an audience member after he told her she hadn’t really answered his question and her bizarre responses to Glenn (ahm ripping up the snp manifesto on the telly) Campbell’s simple question. Ruth’s dictatorial demeanour is becoming more and more obvious, I think they’ve both fallen for their own hype.
Isn’t it fascinating they can’t find anyone in Scotland who thinks another referendum on the back of the Brexit deal is a fairly reasonable proposition? We are signatories to the Treaty which defines this Union, we will be having a say about whether we go along with Tory madness or not. It’s not complicated.
The internal polling must be terrifying if they are at this stage before the GE election. So as others are asking, what do they do when we shaft them next week? Where do they go from there?
Having asked that, I’m reminded of aw the hullabaloo wi Jim Murphy, another one who wasn’t off our screens or newspapers, he was hailed as the ‘saviour of the union’. Recall how he tried to get drink back intae the fitba and was running about in a Scotland shirt doon by the Clyde. Recall also how he couldn’t let go of the reigns when it was clear he was fucked? He’s not been seen since, so let’s not worry too much about Kezia, she’s gone by next weekend, As for Ruth unless she pulls 15 MP’s oot her arse a similar fate awaits her.
So who’s next? I’ll huv a stab at Tompkins for blue and Rowley for red.
Oh and don’t think Police Scotland aren’t watching this shit too.
We must find a way to circumvent this no indyref no matter what, from the unionist parties and PM.
For Davidson 99% pro independence would be ignored.
Got it . She’s in charge . She can sit on a big tank .. Got it
No Heil surrender in her blinkered wee eyes. Sorry Davidson but an increasing majority of folk don’t agree with you. You are not omnipotent. Your an ex no very good BBC scotchland reporter and we ain’t frightened.
You are.
K1,re police Scotland,i loved when Nicola said in her manifesto speech about Warminster giving back the vat they imposed on police Scotland.
I can’t believe May, Davidson and Dugdale are writing their own lines. These three are employees. This will go on until we either get Independence or until we flush out the real powerbrokers.
The Westminster government of any hue is a Vampire that sucks the resources of all countries it ever took over by any means,
fair( unlikely) or foul.
Scotland is their long lasting diamond, to suck dry of all we have is their need. The real shame, is on those who help them do it, yet pretend to be “proud Scots”
Me @ 3.52
Oops…for got to add the most important bit.
A Scottish Savings bank.
Just to be clear I am not advocating hurting or boycotting?
English business or goods.
I am saying Banks are fair game but mostly it’s the VAT returns? to Westminster that we need to stop,where we can.
But should the news get out that half of Scotland have removed all of their savings to place them in a “National” Bank regardless of the actual term’s of this, not many are up to speed on how banking actually works, remember, all the “Bank of England, the clue is in the name” and we bailed out “your”Scottish bank’s stuff.
English people would I think reciprocate in kind…
Thats when the Bank’s frightened of contagion would make Westminster end the Union.
Dr jim 2.13pm it won’t be ruthie fighting to keep the union together,it’ll be her loyalist stormtroopers.
How do we start a bank? Seriously, can we not just do this?
Liz g
London will be hurt bad with brexit
http://uk.businessinsider.com/french-central-bank-chief-says-clearing-cannot-remain-in-london-2017-5?yptr=yahoo&ref=yfp
Nearly £800000000 a day goes via the eu clearing bank in London.
Hard brexit, no deal brexit it’s still ouch
Aye Bob, me too…Nicola’s no daft 😉
Gus 1940 @ 4.10
Not directly Gus, someone far up spoke about water and electricity going down south being cut.
Now they didn’t say by who,so I didn’t reply directly,but I can’t see Holyrood doing that.
Someone else farther up mentioned that they had had firearms training….so you can see why I said what I did.
The Westminster establishment have spilled enough Scottish blood …..not one drop more as far as I am concerned.
Liz g @ 16:26:
Completely agree about that too. The very first piece of wanton destruction of the Scottish social fabric that Thatcher committed was to privatise the old TSB. Something that the so-called “trustees” signally failed in their duty to protect. Like a lot of other Tory collaborators and carpetbaggers since.
It has to be UDI. They will not give up Scotland. Be prepared.
Grafter i think that’s a certainty now. They will respect nothing else.
I do somewhat believe that this General Election has been called solely as an attempt to frustrate Scottish Independence and had very little to do with Brexit.
In fact it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the Tories had made their minds up about Brexit already and are planning to walk out of the negotiations. They appear to have done very little preparation at all for the negotiations unlike the EU.
David Davis boasted of having “over 100 pages” of Brexit detail. You aught to listen to this crap, it’s truly unbelievably naive.
Basically he said that the UK government had 2 white papers you know what they are, a major speech at Lancaster House by Theresa May and a 5 page letter.
That’s it, simply unfucking believable 11 months after the Brexit vote. No, I’m sure the plan is No Deal which is what makes me think that this election is all about Scotland.
They knew Nicola Sturgeon had a plan if refused a section 30 order and would announce that plan after Easter, the sudden annoucement of a GE and another U-Turn has prevented Nicola Sturgeons plan being announced. For now.
I also believe that it is quite possible that the Tories have inside knowledge at what is going on behind closed doors with the SNP strategy, would be surprised if they didn’t. No collection of people is watertight, think of the likes of Alex Bell ex speechwriter for Alex Salmond or Jim Sillars. These two in the recent past appear to want to damage the Independence cause rather than help it.
The SNP will be aware of this too, long term we will win and violence will never be necessary nor the solution. Scots will not accept that, only democratic means will ensure victory.
The EU hasn’t really got into Scotland’s Independence game yet. It would in my thinking be unwise to separate ourselves from the 27 member states of the EU. UDI – we’re not even close to that.
Forgot the link to David Davis waffling pish on the Today program Radio 4. Well worth a listen, stupidity abounds 1.39 sec clip.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p054cvjy
Robert j Sutherland @ 16.26
There were lots of the wee Independent one’s too, like the Dunfermline, all to get everything into London.
As far as I can see Robert if they block a vote,and we won’t let them do violence….. It’s as they say “The economy Stupid” we are no done yet.
And their economy is going to be a weak spot for a wee while espically banking.
Ye should look at the link Hamish 100 put up (thanks Hamish) ooft, ouch and crash bang…..so we very non violently of course just need to supply the wallop.
May l remind the yoons that violence and terror are a cam oddity open to all not just them and I would also point out that some of the most passionate Irish freedom fighters were Protestants Wolfe Tone being an example he is looked on as the father of Irish nationalism and he was a landowning Protestant so don’t take anything for granted
Re cloggins post on Charter 1541 (1.50pm)
My favourite bit of the charter…
……….
“3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence”.
……….
In other words, Now IS the time !!
Beware infiltrators pushing a dialogue of violence,
corrupt and destroy from within is a favourite of the UK state,
anyone on the Independence side advocating violence or vandalism or even just bringing it into conversation must be viewed with suspicion,
they,the state,will want it to be seen that we started any trouble which will legitimises their retaliation,
as said above remember the uproar and outrage by the complicit media over a sticker on a door and a thrown egg,(any hacks ever interview egg guy),
and also two people having an argument on a Glasgow street was called by BBC`s James Cook as `absolute chaos on the streets of Glasgow`
the only weapons we will ever need are social media,3/4G camera phone,and a sense of humour.
Sorry to be a cynic but I believe the Tory’s plan all along is to throw the election, that’s why RD and the Dug can say anything they like, in fact the more extreme the better, then Corbyn can step in get rid of the Dug and say “there there it’ll be all right now”, and split the indy2 vote (good cop bad cop). Brexit is going to be a cluster Ferk whoever is presiding, the single aim now is to maintain the union or they (WM) are screwed.
Exactly Blair 5.15pm.charles Stewart parnell founding father of irish nationalism,a protestant as well,which should tell everyone religion isn’t important.it should all be about self determination and betterment for ones country and people irrespective of colour or creed.
@ Scot Finlayson: “Beware infiltrators pushing a dialogue of violence.”
____________________________________________
‘The lifts are faun!’
[An oration given to Boston in 1844]:
“To hear their harangues on the eve of the election, one would suppose that the fable of Chicken Little was about to become a truth, and that the sky was actually falling.”
K1 says:
31 May, 2017 at 4:32 pm
How do we start a bank? Seriously, can we not just do this?
Credit Unions is probably better way to go than banks. Get every local town to open a credit union.The Establishment don’t like them and can’t control them the same.Work much like a group co-op.
‘I also believe that it is quite possible that the Tories have inside knowledge at what is going on behind closed doors with the SNP strategy, would be surprised if they didn’t. No collection of people is watertight, think of the likes of Alex Bell ex speechwriter for Alex Salmond or Jim Sillars. These two in the recent past appear to want to damage the Independence cause rather than help it.’
I would add that I’ve a hunch the SNP have inside knowledge regarding the Tory strategy too. There are back channels operating between all parties, we’ll be surprised in years to come when the true picture emerges of what was happening outwith the public view. Also Alex, I rather think Nicola et al would have let them know what ‘after Easter’ meant. Ergo ergo. We need our MP’s back in Westminster, none of us should underestimate ‘connections’ and we should not assume that every ‘element’ of the establishment’ is against our cause.
I’m in complete agreement with Thepnr and Scot Finlayson.
They will have had these spies and agent provocateurs in place for longer than Mr Peffers has been a member of the independence movement. They’ll be good at it too, after all they have had centuries to perfect their technique.
We don’t have to look very hard to see that the people who are used to carry out the violence, the cannon fodder, have no idea that they are being used.
So we have to adopt the Gandhi doctrine, and not allow ourselves to be led down a path which plays into their hands.
If Brigadier Ruth is going to get into her tank to save the union, let’s hope it’s a septic tank.
It says it all that BBC and STV reporters are too stupid to pick up on this point and hang them by it
Either that or they do understand their stupidity and are covering for them
Either way I see a place for a court room or a reconciliation committee post independence to examine their behavior
I notice the record is saying women being discriminated against in Glasgow was a boys only club issue and not a labour party/trade union issue
Nice one !!!!
I don’t think we should get wound up by this. It’s just a load of Yoon wind and piss.
We should pay close attention to the Catalonian approach.
I suspect they have found a peaceful solution to Spain’s unwillingness to recognise their right to self determination.
The First Minister will do the same here. Exhaust all democratic means one at a time so that you can evidence to the International community that your right to self determination is being denied.
@ Sharney Dubs who wrote “I believe the Tory’s plan all along is to throw the election, . . . Brexit is going to be a cluster Ferk whoever is presiding, the single aim now is to maintain the union or they (WM) are screwed”.
Glad to see you agree with this analysis!!
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/05/21/corbyn-for-pm-its-a-great-british-thing/
Arlene Foster calling for an increased Unionist vote in N.Ireland to show the Sinn Fein that the people of N. Ireland do not want a ‘divisive and destabilising border poll for generations’…sounds awfully familiar.
What is it about these Unionist politicians who keep telling their people what they don’t want but don’t seem to tell them what they want.
She keeps banging on about remaining in the Union but is ignoring the fact that a majority voted to remain!
Maybe she’s a distant relative of tRuthless?
I agree with many here who believe that all the unionist parties are doing their darnedest to push pro-indy buttons in order to cause anger & hopefully violence, be it physical or verbal. Either way, the unionists could then justify troops being sent in to close down Holyrood as the ‘den of iniquity’ where the ‘separatist’ rebels hang out.
Which is why I am extremely grateful to have the SNP government we do. In spite of the extreme provocation, each of the SNP members, MPs or MSPs, are more than capable of ignoring the button-pushing and still give an excellent account of themselves where it counts – in each of the Parliaments.
I know some pro-indy members feel that our Government is TOO laid back for Scotland’s good. But I’m of the opinion that in the climate of trying to make pro-indy people angry enough to vent in a violent manner, our SNP representatives actually have the patience and the ability to bite their tongues and get on with things. They are NOT so easy provoked and in spite of all that the provoking they do, that drives the unionists wild more than actual violence would. Being patient & turning the other cheek means there is no justification for pulling Holyrood down.
I get angry much too quickly and open my yap more than I should, when provoked. Were I an MSP, Holyrood would have been closed down long ago. Thankfully we have people voted in that don’t have my quick temper. They’re patient – and good at driving home their point with more appropriate words then I’d have (though let me say, I DO NOT swear!), when they get the chance! They are the ones that are keeping Holrood open for us. They’re keeping Independence alive for us. And I give them two big thumbs up for that.
I wonder. Who would rise up AGAINST their fellow Scots if an NI situation were to come about? Terrifying thought that my neighbour could hold me with such contempt!This language has to stop, there are enough nutters out there looking for a war!
It’s well documented of British and English agent provocateurs at work. So grafter and PAL push off.
We ain’t fooled by such comments. It’s like the wee boy at the back of then class wanting to egg someone on to fight someone else. Look around their no where to be seen.
GE then brexit arguments for a yard or so, failing economy. That’s when the independence referendum is making the Tories feart.
Year or so
As Ruthie has inadvertently boxed herself into a corner by going all out and labelled this as a Independence vote, Should we take her at her word, if any of the Unionist parties fail to gain a majority, and fail to have more MPs elected than the SNP , then she and her fellow Unionists have failed , will she accept Scots have told her and her pals to get to f/k .
The clip at the top of the page gives the answer, even if we elect every mp she won’t accept the result, what now then ? , they don’t accept the parliament so what’s the next move , ? .
I believe the government our government need to start really annoying Westminster , what have they to lose, at Hollyrood they have bent over backwards to accommodate other parties, they could have voted to control every committee , why be so accommodating f/k them , withdraw all cooperation agree to nothing, starting with detailed replies to questions they don’t listen to , treat them the same way our MPs are treated , in short stop reacting and start being proactive .
Graeme McCormick says: “If we have to contemplate UDI at some date then we have to be in control of the public revenue.”
UDI can be declared as a means of then negotiating to amicalbly settle the terms of the divorce. We aren’t colonial america or Kosovo. We aren’t at war with the UK.
MSP candidates don’t need to stand for UDI. They can stand to empower the Scottish Parliament to hold referendums or UDI. Only if the UK refused to respect that would UDI be required.
As a declared independent country negotiations would begin and come under international law. Any dispute could then be referred to the ICJ.
Scotland and rUK would have legal and financial obligations that would need to be settled. There would be continuing cooperation on certain matters of mutual benefit.
The difference is that legally it would be sovereign country and sovereign country. No longer would Westiminster be sovereign over Scotland’s Parliament.
It’s time for the sovereign people of Scotland to stop asking for permission from the unionists to exercise our democratic rights. If over 50% 0f voters support pro-independence parties at any future general election, that is a declaration of independence. No need for a referendum.
Referendums are just a delaying tactic.
The only argument the westminster lot have against Indyref2 is time. Not enough time has passed since the last Indyref – only a bit under three years. But of course it’s ok to hold another UK general election after only two years.
The amount of time that has passed since the last vote (Indyref 2014 or UK GE 2015) is irrelevant. It wouldn’t matter if it was one year or five. What matters is whether there have been changes that validate the need for another vote.
So what has changed since the last UK GE that justifies another UK election only two years later? Well Brexit of course, but since the majority in England & Wales voted to leave the EU, it’s certainly not Brexit that forced another UK election. All we’re left with is political infighting and maneuvering at Westminster as a reason.
What has changed since Indyref 2014. Being dragged out of the EU after being promised the only way to stay in was to vote no. On day one after the Brexit vote two things became obvious – the leave campaign had been based on lies and there was no plan. Even now after almost a year since the Brexit vote, the UK government still don’t have a plan or even, according to David Davis their ‘Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union since 2016’, an analysis of what Brexit will mean to the UK economy.
It does beg the question – leaving aside the xenophobic immigration nonsense, if real economic realities hadn’t been established, on what basis did people decide to vote at the Brexit referendum? Turkey’s voting for Xmas for sure. The general consensus appears to be that the UK is heading for severe economic consequences caused by Brexit. The financial markets certainly thought so immediately after the result.
So holding another UK election is ok when nothing materially has changed since the last election, but holding another Indyref is not ok when massive material changes have taken place.
All they have is to avoid discussing what has changed since the last Indyref and focus only on ‘it’s too soon’. Except of course for another UK election. They have a phrase for this sort of thing – utter bollocks.
That is an extremely encouraging poll from STV. It will have been done before the SNP manifesto launch and before the Tory meltdown had become irreversible.(this could be highly significant in Tory SNP held targets)
After a relentless battering across all the media for months our vote has hardly moved at all
More useful is the suggestion in it that Labour will only win one seat making the campaign that the only way to beat the Tories in Scotland is to vote SNP a winner and making an anti Tory alliance tactical vote behind SNP in a number of seats very possible.
Can I remind everybody that when we went into the last election the polls were suggesting we might just get 40 seats. We got 56.
I’ve said this many times and am repeating myself. Anyway I’d be dead against a declaration of UDI without majority support of Scotland’s electorate.
The evidence for majority support could come via a referendum or a vote for either the Scottish or Westminster Parliaments in which this intent was specifically stated in the manifesto’s of those seeking a mandate from the Scottish people for Independence.
The main danger in this approach is that it would likely be boycotted by the Unionist vote in Scotland so where would we be then? Catalonia had a vote on the 9 November 2014 on Independence where 81% supported it yet the turnout was just between 37% and 42%.
No official turnout was ever given though it is clear that those that opposed Independence boycotted the vote. The final outcome of this vote was that the President and Vice President were barred from public office for 2 years and 18 months respectively as well as given large fines.
Nobody has ever thought that gaining your Independence would be easy with all the obstacles that the ruling country can through in your direction. There will come a day though where the demand for it is overwhelming and the Unionists will have to accept that it is over.
I think for us supporters of Independence though it is absolutely vital that we don’t get drawn into the dirty tricks and fall for them.
If that takes more time than we might wish then patience is a virtue. After 310 years of English domination I’m sure we can afford to wait a bit longer.
Give them No excuses for completely closing down talk of Independence.
The SNP are divisive by asking you what you want
Three Unionist parties in Scotland offer the people no choice in their futures and there are people who say I’m voting for that, no choice sounds dashed good to me by Jove, I don’t want a choice, damned annoying things choices don’t you know, much better for politicians to go right ahead with anything they want to do so that if it goes wrong
I can just go back to the way things were and blame them
Damned SNP and their choices!
I hope they apply the ‘notional’ arithmetic Dave McH to our seat count, we had 72 Scot MP’s afore devolution? So if we’ve tae expect 50 seats this time, we’ll really be gaining those ‘lost’ 22 seats that might have been in play if we hadn’t had devolution all, ah mean that’s how the BBC count innit? 🙂
There is no chance of a UDI by the Scottish Government.
Thepnr mentioned the plan is for the UK to walk away from the table.This was opined (word of the day) months ago and i believe TM and Co will seek to create the EU as the villains
The problem could be no Tory majority and a coalition attempting to fulfill the best deal for the UK when the deal is going to be brutal
These branches managers, Harrison and Dugstail are paid Brit schills and stooges and along with Annie Wells and Tompkins and Rennie should all be stripped of their seats in our parliament. If they don’t recognise the legitimacy of Holyrood and it’s legislation then how can they take the wages and swear the oath of loyalty?
‘re.their incitement to violence, I would like Police Scotland to be involved in public warnings against this type of public language. They do it with football managers and supporters so why not with tank commander and her pal?
As I noted many times the Police were negligent and plain useless at snuffing outthe loyalist riot of 2014.I hope they are ready to deal that lot the next time…as it is surely coming.
Our movement will remain peaceful and good humoured. The agent provocations of the past are transparent to the Sussed Yes movemment and will not be contemplated or tolerated. So any trolls advocating anything other than political action can GTF!
Thank you, thank you Stuart for repeating this n unflinching terms. Readers who have followed Wings since before the Independence Referendum will recall that there is only so long before the down trodden will burst into open violent revolution. It happened in America when the people were ignored, it happened in France, it happened in Burma, it happened in Malaya, it happened in Cypress, it happened in India, do you want me to go on. In all these Countries there was one common denominator, an intransigent bunch of ‘Dark’ manipulators with only there self interest to the fore.
Whatever the outcome please, please keep it peaceful as it was in the run-up to the 2014 Indy Ref. Let’s keep it this way but let’s keep warning them that they can only keep people down for so long – a bent stick will eventually break.
Auld Rock
O/T
Labour are a shower of bastards and Kezia Dugdale is an utter phoney. I too hope the people of West Lothian girutflot on 8th June
‘The dirty truth about the Labour-Tory West Lothian coalition’
https://t.co/yoCHpYvl9U?amp=1
We’re made of willow Auld Rock, they can bend us all they want, but they will not break us. We’re winning this, their rhetoric reveals they know it too. They two will be gone soon enough, and we’ll still be here…send in the clowns cause we know how to laugh in their faces.
Will Angus Robertson get asked any question?
Angus Robertson just nailed Corbyn on lack of support for open market and restricting eu freedom of movement.
Until we get over 50% supporting Independence in opinion polls,there is nothing we can do.
Until that happens, Westminster has no problem in blocking Indyref2 regardless of election results. A hung parliament might be of use, but the unionists would probably freeze out the SNP.
Lets have less talk of UDI and of electoral mandates and focus on the thing that matters, which is getting the polls over 50%.
Just had a Tory leaflet through the door, it says;
“Only Ruth Davidson’s candidate, ‘Struan Mackie’, can beat the SNP here in Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross”
We now have the Ruth Davidson party.
Angus as usual has been very impressive,the rest of the uk must wonder about the abilities of their leaders in comparison.
Amber Rudd and the tories are going down like Black Death in 1665 London.
If that audience represents the wider electorate, in 8 days time Theresa ain’t going to win feck all.
Angus being very well received, see what happens when you present your argument honestly and with facts !
Ask yourselves this, why are the Unionists frothing at the mouth over Scotref – they are shitting themselves, that’s why.
They will use every dirty trick in the book to get us back in our box.
Oh, and for the forelock tuggers – Scotref is not Westminsters gift. We don’t need their effing permission.
A crucial and uplifting reminder of the peaceful and inspiring Independence movement during the IndyRef campaign.This is a crucial moment.The obnoxious Ruth Davidson and her cohorts are blatantly and gleefully disrespecting peoples intelligence and threatening to disenfranchise the people of Scotland.
Our unanimous and persistent quiet defiance of their power is giving them the heebie-jeebies.A normal election usually has candidates and parties canvassing for votes on the basis of what’s in their manifestos.The Unionist Parties in Scotland have a collective mantra of No IndyRef 2 and that’s it.This is farcical and malicious.
But addressing this crucial moment cannot come at the expense of strategy, process and intention.We must hold our collective nerve and trust in the SNP and each other to continue on our peaceful journey.
Like many others, I can’t wait for this sham election to be over.Indyref2 next and we’ll hit the ground running.
Thats strange…Only Ruth Davidson’s candidate Luke Graham can beat the SNP in Ochil and South Perthshire
ian murray says:
31 May, 2017 at 7:29 pm
“There is no chance of a UDI by the Scottish Government.”
Quite agree – and quite right. Laughable.
Which foreign states would recognise Scotland as independent, without proven democratic credentials?
The only way – with or without a Section 30 – is a majority through a referendum.
@TheWasp
Yes very strange, it’s like the spreading of a virus. Seems to have started in Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross as reported by Jim, you’ve reported that it has reached Ochil and South Perthshire.
I can confirm that the virus has spread to us here in Angus.
Only RUTH DAVIDSON CANDIDATE Kristene Hair can beat the SNP.
Pharrppp!
Tories are toxic. Ruth Davidson thinks she is not toxic.
Sorry Ruth we are catching on. You are even more toxic than your party so keep on saying vote for the Ruth Davidson party.
A bigger ego than a hot air balloon!
george wood at 8.11
Opinion polls have no legal or constitutional validity whatsoever.
We require no other mandate than that we received in the Scottish parliament.
Anybody who thinks we can trust opinion polls we don’t own, run, pay for or supervise hasn’t been around very long.
And they were wrong at the last GE, wrong on Brexit and wrong in the US.
If we start an independence campaign with their figures showing us anywhere in forties we will win.
That is why they are squealing
Amber Fudd going down like a dose of the clap.
Angus Robertson bangin’ on about independence all the time during the debate. So predictable eh ??
The loyalists for Britain will be livid !
I could never vote Tory; they remain toxic – but, I thought Amber Rudd was far-more impressive than Mother Theresa and her tiny proud Scot but Minnie Me coule ever have been or could be.
Angus Robertson, it goes without saying – did very well.
Robbo @ 6.09 & K1
Sorry I took so long to reply K1.
I do think we should seriously look at this anyway as well.
I think we should have moved in this direction after the no vote.
It would have given us something to get behind and lot’s of time to make a success of it.
And opened up the opportunity to have had the option to actually have invested our money in Scotland by this point in time.
Espically in response to the Brexit vote and the Westminster pronouncements since.
But hey ho we are where we are.
Also
Robbo? while I take your point that credit unions are easily set up and the people get a say, which is great and should be encouraged to be prevelent in Scotland anyway.
What I was getting at was the effect on the English electorate of us putting all our savings into the new Scottish National Bank….The SNB.
This is a legal and non violent thing to do, it’s our right and our choice,we need no one’s permission.
But the Establishment has done such a number on the English electorate with regards to us,they will as I said probably as is their right do the same thing as best they can,right back.
In response to outrage from the media and the banks.
This will cause a stushie for the Bank’s and apparently they are easily spooked…wee shame that….but it wasn’t us that mislead their customers on how banking work’s.
That was Westminster and the Bank’s themselves
The result will be that this time it’s the establishment that has to try and get a basic explanation of banking across not us.
I would go farther and make it clear Scottish currency will be called Stirling,it will be easily distinguished from Sterling, because Stirling is a Petro currency,and we will leave it up to the BOE to describe what Sterling is…if it turns out to be a royal something currency? fine by us.
Because once again it’s them that have to explain the difference not us and it might also mean a better understanding for some of a Petro currency it’s self.
I could also see espically at PMQS every time the Nationalist not National mistake is made SNB getting mixed up with SNP,a shout out every week for our bank or the other MP’s get the name right.
It would be a bank that needs no advertising fund we could do that….. again no law against it.
But if we are serious about asking half the country to put their money into SNB it has to be a proper bank.
A credit Union won’t have the same effect.
We need to get a hold of someone who knows banking,and that we are sure prioritises Scotland over money,and ask him…Alex can ah have a word…to see if it’s doable.
We should be asking the politicians about this as well,and we should be doing it now, because Holyrood? would need to be involved somehow.
Whit are they going to do ban us from banking next, trying to tell us where we can save.
We should also be asking if others are interested and see what kind of support is out there for keeping money in our economy and not London’s.
Would love to hear what you others think, espically if you know about banking.
Did any British colony get independence by democratic and peaceful means?
Anyone believe they will let us be the first one?
Watching the roving reporters on the news tonight, I do not think they were quite getting the answers they were looking for.
I don’t believe a word of these opinion polls.
Tanks outside Holyrood if May wins? DIRECT rule from Westminster? Tory packets elevated to HoL and given posts in the Scottish Office as of yore irrespective of the democratic vote!
Wee notice outside Holyrood. Only when all voters vote for independence will it be granted.
Dangerous times. The promoted cult of May means simply in new Tory speak that the leaders will must be obeyed. In Nazi speak: Der Wille des Führers.
No need to vote after that! Perpetual government that knows best.
The English upper crust’s last gasp! Tragedy is that it is out to destroy Labour and the LibDems down south , but the hapless Kez and Willie do not see that! They are being targetted as well. May’s little will soon be politically liquidated by May’s jackboot hit squads too!
Well that debate was fun, audience reaction particularly amusing if you oppose the Tories.
Looks like the optimism of the Tories for a huge majority has been shot to shreds, after tonight, well maybe no majority is possible though I still don’t believe that although wish for it.
Amber Rudd the worst performer, came across as a, as a…typical Tory. She was laughed at and attacked by the rest of the panel.
Polls in the Sunday papers should be interesting reading for Theresa May, doubt she’ll leave the house that day. She’s taken the Tories from absolute certainty to the possibility of actually losing which is remarkable.
She is an idiot, the jury has delivered the verdict despite what Rock says.
well done Angus – he was given a good reception to most of his answers , a very good showing and a well earned rest for Nicola ,we cant imagine the pressure on her right now shes doing well to stand up to the constant barrage from the media ,every media outlet is out to trip her up , ok we are behind you , trust us as we trust you .
Fergus Green,
“Passive resistance and civil disobedience.
It worked for Ghandi and it will work for us.”
Before leaving, the British bastards divided the people, caused riots, a massive exodus and a million deaths.
Followed by enmity, wars and poverty continuing to the present day.
They divided Ireland and caused bloodshed.
If and when they are forced to let go of Scotland, don’t expect them to leave a smoothly operating country.
Do not underestimate the British establishment from the comfort of your armchairs.
The likes of May are the vilest, nastiest people on earth.
Only if we fully understand that, we might be able to keep things in order.
They will do everything possible to incite us.
No, they are most certainly not fools and idiots.
Rock says:
31 May, 2017 at 9:27 pm
Fergus Green,
You forgot hubble bubble toil and trouble, you fear mongering roaster.
Just been informed its actually double, double toil and trouble Rock.
I am just reading on another site that Amber Judd´s father died on Monday, two days ago, yet she is continuing to campaign and took part in a televised debate tonight.
Maybe I am old fashioned but I find that frankly disturbing and more than a little distasteful.
I don´t really know what else to say apart from maybe, watch your back Theresa!
No, they are most certainly not fools and idiots.
States the biggest fool ever to post on Wings. Covert Tory.
@Rock,
Hong Kong ? New Zealand ? Australia ? Canada ?
Thepnr,
“They knew Nicola Sturgeon had a plan if refused a section 30 order and would announce that plan after Easter, the sudden annoucement of a GE and another U-Turn has prevented Nicola Sturgeons plan being announced. For now.”
Rock (18th April):
“The Tories only make extremely carefully calculated decisions.
Saint Theresa has outsmarted Nicola Sturgeon.
I had long called for a strike while the iron was hot, and call a referendum immediately after the Brexit result.
The unionists were in complete disray and leaderless and the EU’s eyes were on us.
Instead Nicola wasted months flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen.
Now the unionists have re-grouped and are determined to follow their rules and timetable.
Despite everything, we hardly have 50% support for Yes.
Things are nowhere near as easy as some posters seem to believe.
The SNP should now be extremely careful what they promise.
Going for independence with an SNP majority is extremely risky.
Do not underestimate the British establishment.
The SNP should not make any announcements until after the council elections.”
Dave McEwan Hill at 8.51
Electoral mandates are just politicians speak. Both sides are at it over what people are voting for. Neither side are standing on a single issue and so to say that everybody agrees with one policy out of many is not realistic.
Not everybody who votes for the SNP and the Greens supports Independence and people who support Independence vote for unionist parties.
Short of having a referendum every couple of weeks, opinion polls are the best we’ve got to judge public opinion. If we can’t get over 50% in these polls then it is easy for Westminster to ignore these “electoral mandates”.
The consensus following the debate is that Rudd and Nuttall fared badly and that the Tories are furious with the BBC for having an anti-Tory audience.
Jeremy and Angus appear to have been favorably mentioned in dispatches too and Caroline Lucas is getting a fair bit of praise as is Leanne.
The last week is going to be interesting.
Scot Finlayson,
“@Rock,
Hong Kong ? New Zealand ? Australia ? Canada ?”
Hong Kong – they couldn’t match the might of China. Nevertheless, they left divisions behind. Where was the movement for “democracy” when it was a British colony for so long?
New Zealand, Australia, Canada – They destroyed the indegenous populations and populated them with “good white English stock”, on their side whenever needed. Basically, extensions of England.
Closer to home, Ireland is the example to be compared with Scotland.
Handand— @9.41
I agree but would add that Farron did pretty well too.
I think a pretty good time to watch the difference between our politicians and theirs again, like May who treats the public as if we all have the plague.
Here’s Alex Salmond meeting the public as he should do on the streets of Dundee 1st Sept 2014. Joyous so it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6ffJnzboJA
Some people getting carried away on this thread. They have forgotten all those EVENTS that have happened recently upsetting a lot of plans.
Kezia told her councillors not to do deals with the Tories and they ignored her. Then her boss JC recognised the democracy she was trying to ignore and has overruled her on a democratic mandate for IndyRef2, depending on timing which should be able to be agreed. KD is just in a bad mood, fed up and pouting all over the place. Just filling time until someone else takes her place.
Ruth Davidson has put all her eggs into the one basket of ‘we don’t want another referendum’, everyone vote for me. She wants all the Unionist votes together so that she can out vote SNP, but according to the polls that is not happening. Labour and Tories appear to be neck and neck in Scotland so things are not going her way. Like any spoilt brat she therefore tries to change the rules, but who is going to agree? Westminster Tories have their own problems and Ruth is not helping.
Theresa May thought that the Nation was in love with her, even appearing with her financier husband on popular TV so that everyone could see how wonderful she was. The couple went for a walk in Wales and decided this was the best time for a general election, while everyone loved them and before they realised how bad Brexit was going to be. They definitely did not want an election then! While they were making decisions wouldn’t it be great for all the financial companies to provide health insurance for the elderly in exchange for their houses. They could save more money by not having to pay the winter fuel allowance as well, though they would tell them it was means tested but most would just miss out.
Everything was going so well, and then they published the Tory Manifesto and the sky fell in. People here have said that May is not stupid, that she knows what she is doing. Well she does not appear to know much about real people and how they are likely to react, for understandably when she hit her key voters with her policies she started to fall in the polls.
Then tragic events happened and the lack of police and security was noticed and TMay was being scrutinised for her time at the Home Office and the polls fell further and they have not stopped falling yet. TMay tries to recover her place in the polls and Ruth has not amalgamated the Scottish vote as she was instructed.
Meanwhile Corbyn borrowed some SNP policies for his own manifesto and England and Wales loved it. He even managed to get his whole Westminster party to agree the manifesto. No small feat. He is climbing the polls and fast catching up to May. In the MSM he comes across as popular, in touch with the people, anti-austerity and even has the ‘no university fees’ to encourage his many young supporters to get out and vote. HE is the current threat that must be defeated or May cannot have free reign in her dictatorship.
Corbyn, who obviously likes SNP policies, may even be up for an alliance of sorts with the SNP to replace the Scottish seats Labour used to win for themselves. Like the Labour councillors in Scotland joining with the Tories to keep the SNP out, Labour in Westminster may be able to join with the SNP to keep the Tories out. The polls are still shifting. Many in England wish that they could vote for the SNP and could see the possibilities.
So much has shifted in such a short period of time and everything is still to play for. It is much too early to be worried about dirty tricks. At the moment power is in the hands of the people of the UK!
The Scottish Insurrection of 1820 was a put-up job by government agents who incited the weavers into armed rebellion. The 1820 Society is keen to recruit members, see Donald Anderson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_War
The former colonies of Australia & New Zealand both achieved their independence by peaceful means, both enjoyed universal suffrage (including women) long before Britain.
Thepnr
I’ve not had any Tory leaflets yet in Stirling but I was leafletting a street tonight going along about 3 doors behind two perfectly polite, Tory leafleteers.
Ah wis affy tempted to pull their leaflets oot as I was stuffing mine in fur the SNP!
I’ll let you know if the virus has reached here as and when their leaflet arrives.
However, tRuthless did say to Gordon Brewer ‘only a vote for me and my party can stop the SNP’, so we shouldn’t really be surprised.
Re tonight’s debate I was very pleased that Angus stated that he was the Leader of the SNP at WM in his final statement as Im sure some people would wonder why Nicola wasn’t in the debate tonight.
In fact I did hear someone say that early on.
When Angus was pointing out that TM wasn’t there, someone said ‘neither is your leader”
I saw a chart today informing how many times various Tory Ministers and spokespeople have been interviewed on TV/Press/Radio during the campaign.
Amber Rudd manages 33 times whilst Fluffy has managed a total of 3!!!
Re the previous comment about the Tories being furious that the audience was non-Tory partisan, for once the BBC wasn’t able to fix the audience because they thought Corbyn wasn’t going to attend – clever tactic.
Amber Rudd performed well ? – don’t forget her performance at the tory party conference when she said she wanted to introduce a law requiring businesses to keep a list of non-british workers and even her own sister was shocked at her far right comments.
Despite the recent rise in the polls for labour , i have this feeling the result has already been decided and the Tory party are going through the motions , thats why Mayhem dosnt give a toss about going on debates , why bother .
The NO side in 2014 pulled the same stunt by not joining in any of the debates that were happening all around the country why bother when you know the result .
Trust the British state i wouldn’t piss on them , they lead the world in dirty tricks and subverting democracy , they have been at it for a very long time .A lot longer than any of us have been around .As have the people in the shadows who we never see .
@Rock, 9.11
Did any British colony get independence by democratic and peaceful means?
Yes, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
Dave McEwan Hill – I’ve still got my notes from two years ago. In the fortnight before the vote the polls were indicating between 52 and 57 SNP seats. They were pretty much on the money.
I had voted for independence but now I have become apathetic with politics. However, I do from time to time keep in touch with the political scene including lurking in this site.
I would have to agree that some of the commentators on this particular topic are getting carried away. A lot of people are being turned off by the Tories as they are losing the plot and imploding. This will be further reinforced by Davidson’s antics where quite frankly she is losing the plot and sounding hysterical by trying to get the sentence of opposing independence at every opportunity she is given by the media.
Another fact that needs to be remembered is that a lot of middle class Catholics of Irish descent voted to stay in the union and with Davidson’s aggressive tone which smacks of Ulster unionism is going to drive them away.
Whether intentional or unintentional, it does seem to be a tactic of trying and drive the SNP campaign down to the gutter with them. For example, it is frustrating that the Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t try to shut down the constant barrage of the opposition and broadcasters bringing up devolved issues in this UK election but it in the bigger picture, it seems the right strategy of letting them get on with it and politely saying that the Scottish people made a verdict at the last Holyrood election.
In the same way, it is best to just give them enough rope to hang themselves with their hysterical antidemocratic nonsense. It will end up that normal decent people while abandon the Tories when the day comes and they face the point of having to choose to put an x beside them on the voting paper or not.
@Robert Graham
Good points and very true. I think you have it nailed. The No side kept well away from the big debates and meetings in 2014 and look at what RD spewed out on the ref night regarding the postal votes. They knew they had it in the bag weeks before the day of the vote.
Still to catch up on the debate. Been in the Senate House a couple of times as a very proud parent watching graduations. Offspring, from state school, done and still doing amazing stuff in this great university. And all fully funded…thank God!
But even more proud that had he not been on a train to Wales and a meeting at another uni he said he would have been in the protests outside against the government.
(Probably just as well as one member of the family on an mi5/6 troublemaker list is enough! ;-))
Further to my previous post suggesting that Amber Judd was looking to take Theresa May´s job as leader of the Nasty Party I have just been informed that the Tories have approached David Blunkett to take over the Conservatives GE17 election campaign.
Why?
Because he knows how to hold on to a lead 🙂
Followed this thread intently. I’ve always tried to stimulate the debate aound,
‘…the British elite is no respecter of democracy when its core interests are threatened. What do we do if it comes down to them having state power and us not having it ?’
Most indy supporters that I speak to are (correctly) dyed in the wool democrats but, among friends, they can see the predatory nature of our opponents. I’m greatly encouraged by the widespread acceptance, on this thread, that we are a revolutionary movement trying to create new history by carrying out a revolutionary act by democratic means.
Everyone who has taken part in this conversation must talk to all of their friends and contacts about it. Help people to see the task in front of them. We will not be alone. The British establishment is sliding into dementia in the last stages of its imperial power. Their political skills are slipping away.
We have friends in England as well as Ireland and Wales.
We have friends in Europe.
We have an absolute right to self determination.
Davidson, Dugdale et al will be the dross in the dustbin of history.
Keep pushing friends.
@Rock
you were not questioning the history of these countries you questioned whether any country had left the Empire peacefully,which i correctly listed 4,
the list of atrocities perpetrated by the brutal British Empire on indigenous peoples throughout the world is written down with a sea of blood,
`British Values` is the biggest lie ever told,
as someone said before,
`beware infiltrators pushing a dialogue of violence`.
Ah love ah party wie a slappy atmosphere . Ruth Davidson’s candidates will get slapped doon.
I guess that many of us that read Wings are getting a bit nervy at what the outcome of this General Election might be. That’s not surprising, it’s because we care about the result and what it might mean.
Anyways, deep breath and calm ourselves. We’re doing OK and I suspect that it’s the Tories who should be having palpitations and I’m pretty sure that they are right now 🙂
I’m laughing, laughing a lot as it isn’t turning out as they expected. They really are useless tubes, David Davis LOL.
I don’t care cos I is going to see lots of lovely friends on Glasgow Green on Saturday – so yah boo socks to yoons.
Its very reassuring that Mr Corbyn has arrived on the political scene and after adopting SNP policies about the NHS, early years support, higher education, tackling inequalities and taking inspiration from the peace and dignity of the YES movement is getting out and about and appealing to England’s electorate directly who have been, for too long, at the mercy of a particularly toxic brand of right wing politics supported by an equally toxic MSM. Now there is an alternative.
Labour have re-discovered their roots of social justice and deliberative democracy, it would be logical that they recognise that Scotland is a country that should be an equal partner in any political association with any other nation state e.g. England. Wales is also commonly known as a country and N. Ireland is joined onto a country with a very similar name (although WM don’t really like to acknowledge that). A political structure that would be a co-operative of equal nations with reciprocity, mutual understanding and honesty at its core.
And because this is a union of equals then all things being equal means that Scotland should be in control of all aspects of its economy- all revenues raised in Scotland should be acknowledged. Scotland, because it is a country, should also be in charge of all its welfare powers (not a mere 15%), it should be able to develop its renewable energy potential unhindered,determine its relationship with the EU and amongst other things should be able to decide if it wants to retain Trident or spend its share of that expense on other priorities.
This doesn’t mention ‘independence’ which seems to provoke such an inexplicably visceral response from those who are professional politicians working within Scotland’s institution of democracy which must be a dark, joyless experience for them if all they can think about is thwarting Scotland the country.
I think I saw a proper political discussion programme on BBC this evening. I didn’t know any of the 4 people whose opinions were asked nor the presenter but the whole atmosphere was of quiet, reasonable conversation. Nobody told lies. Nobody talked over anybody or interrupted them.
How can such a programme be allowed? Well, it was BBC Alba so London doesn’t know about it. I shall be watching again – An Taghadh 2017, all about the general election [with English sub-titles].
Wee willie winkie squirming lol Tosser he is
@Paula Rose
Wish I could join you, but will be elsewhere. You reminded me of this from 2013 which was not reported on any news station and the march planned for 2014 was cancelled.
I hope the rally is successful, just to get people in the mood, watch the Rev handing out Wings badges in the Royal Mile in 2013.
Get there if you can folks, it will be a great day out. Show them we mean business. This is how to do it without violence.
You’ll scare the shit out of them if you do turn up LOL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRQkKiFQIqw
Go Ponsenby- hang him high!
Whoops! Scotland tonights Colin McKay slips up when he says
“So nobody wants another Independence referendum then”
Then follows it up by saying “well just 47%”
Sorry Colin you just put yourself on the naughty boy list Tut Tut
Scot Finlayson,
“@Rock
you were not questioning the history of these countries you questioned whether any country had left the Empire peacefully,which i correctly listed 4,”
I am not sure if you are correct.
Hong Kong didn’t get independence, it was absorbed into communist China.
Technically, New Zealand, Australia and Canada are still “dominions” and are still part of the Empire, in my view.
They have always followed the English imperial line and are full of union jacks.
Just a few days ago, the Australian Prime Minister spoke against Scottish independence.
Contrary to claims made previously, rebellions broke out in both Upper Canada (now Ontario) and Lower Canada (now Quebec) in 1837 and sporadically afterwards. To respond to claims for self rule and the constant possibility of unification with the USA, quasi independence was given to Canada in 1867 with full autonomy not achieved until after WW1.
That guy Rock is a laugh a minute so he is. Cheers 🙂
george wood at 9.41
Sorry George. Opinion polls have no legitimacy whatsoever and we have a mandate. If opinion polls were to establish whether we have a mandate you can guarantee they would never show that
We may have to reference the UN Charter to call the UK’s bluff, which is all it is.
“All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
And even if you are right, I very much doubt they will let Scotland become independent democratically and peacefully.
I have long called for a Ghandi style peaceful campaign.
Rock (10th January 2015):
“It is time we started following Ghandi’s example.
‘Home Rule’, let alone independence, is not going to come the easy way.”
There is something we can do:
The current UK / Scottish Parliament set up is: Holyrood (HR)is subservient to Westminster (WM). WM is sovereign.
WM devolves power to HR.
MSP candidates who respect Scottish sovereignty could stand on a manifesto pledge that they will declare:
HR is sovereign in all Scottish matters, including constitutional matters such as referendums or independence.
However, if Scotland remains within the UK.
HR devolves power to WM.
HR can devolve, retain or recall powers from WM regarding Scotland, as it sees fit to do so.
If HR ever wants to vote on independence referendums or UDI, that is a matter for HR.
If Scotland wants to remain part of the UK, that’s a decision for HR.
HR should be sovereign, as the people of Scotland’s democratically elected representatives.
Whether independence ever happens or not – Scottish sovereignty over all Scottish matters should be established by Scotland’s Parliament.
Brian Nicholson,
“Contrary to claims made previously, rebellions broke out in both Upper Canada (now Ontario) and Lower Canada (now Quebec) in 1837 and sporadically afterwards. To respond to claims for self rule and the constant possibility of unification with the USA, quasi independence was given to Canada in 1867 with full autonomy not achieved until after WW1.”
As I believe, they will not let us go easily.
Could we possibly unite with the Republic of Ireland? Or at least threaten to?
We could then be both autonomous and remain within the EU!
what I don’t understand – if we are a union [2 parties signed the 1707 union] then why is one party in charge, the other subordinate?
Notes from Ulster. There are still unionist paramilitary groups in NI. They have meetings with the leader of the DUP, Arlene Foster.
This from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40104318
In another report
Put border poll off ‘for generations’, says DUP’s Foster.
The leader of the DUP has said maintaining the union with the UK is “by far” the most important issue in the general election.
Arlene Foster said returning a majority of unionist MPs would take the idea of a “divisive and destabilising border poll off the agenda for generations”.
Unionists in Ulster seem to be into this “once in a generation” thing too and not want “divisive” referendums. What a remarkable coincidence.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40104316
Aw geared up an ready tae roll on Sat , pity Rogue Coder cant make it ,10.000/15.000 People is a lot of potential sales not forgetting promoting WoS & more readers .
If you have any spare Wings materials Wee Blue/Black books ,Flags ect we could use it for the Wings stall .
There have been a lot of restrictions ie Food Vans so I would advise packing sandwiches . Tea / Coffee available at the Wings stall.
The thing is it’s really not going to make any kind of legitimate sense in the lead up to next Thursday given the dire position the Tories are facing, even when Tory candidates are saying they are ‘fucked off’ with her:
http://archive.is/bt0jZ
And the polls are narrowing (although not consistently across all polling companies) to an extent that was thought unimaginable when she announced the election a few short weeks ago.
Given how badly the ‘robbing yer houses to pay for your social care’ policy has affected Tory ‘core’ voters with the still uncosted policy in their manifesto. The shambles with her on record at the police federation as Home Secretary accusing the Police of scaremongering when the reality on the ground during the aftermath of Manchester was ‘British soldiers on our streets’ which is a direct conseqence of slashing of police numbers and budgets, that she was warned of repeatedly by serving officers as a potential outcome of those cuts:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/police-officer-theresa-may-cuts-james-obrien/
Her ‘stable and strong’ laughable mantra and her visibly uncomfortable performances and lack of any coherent answers to perfectly obvious questions regarding NHS cuts, welfare cuts, police cuts et al during that weird non debate on Monday, her contrived appearances in hidden locations and empty factories with workers and media being forbidden to ask questions. And now her ‘no show’ on tonight’s actual debate, especially as Corbyn finally got his act together and got out there.
And her disturbing response when asked why she wouldn’t attend the debate tonight, described by Alex Massie, no socialist he:
‘This is not how a credible Prime Minister behaves, looks, or speaks.’
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNews/status/869908350019829760/video/1
Given all of this, I do not foresee how the state can ‘fix’ this election?
There will be more to come, and for the Tories to make any kind of comeback to their previous levels would be nothing short of miraculous, I think we are in danger of underestimating the ‘mood’ in general UK wide and seriously think the Tories are heading for a resl thrashing.
I’m not saying they won’t win. I’m suggesting that May will not be the PM and if you have a wee look at her response to those couple of questions about her ‘no show’ tonight you’d be seriously forgiven for thinking this woman is on the edge of a major breakdown,
And in response to the inanimate pebble further up the thread who seems to think Theresa May has outsmarted Nicola Sturgeon. Utter fucking bollocks. IMO.
Nicola Stugeon is a stateswoman of the highest calibre, May couldn’t lick her high heels.
Rock I really really do feel sorry for you, are you lonely, do you need help? I’m sure Wingers would help you if you were honest.
Hong Kong didn’t get independence, it was absorbed into communist China.
Nope In 1984, the British and Chinese governments signed the Sino-British Joint Declaration which stated that the sovereignty of Hong Kong should be transferred to the PRC on 1 July 1997
Technically, New Zealand, Australia and Canada are still “dominions” and are still part of the Empire, in my view.
Nope again
Just a few days ago, the Australian Prime Minister spoke against Scottish independence.
Who cares, everybody and their dug spoke against Independence.
Rock your wasting your time here and I feel sorry for you. See when you are in a more positive mood about the possibilities and opportunities that Independence will bring then we can talk.
Meantime, maybe bedtime.
@ Rock – are you mad? Scottish nationalism has followed the constitutional route for over a hundred years, and now, just when you have independence almost within your grasp you want to switch tactics to violence and threatening to join a united Ireland??
Don’t be silly. There may be a debate to be had that Scotland could, or should, have taken up arms for independence back when Ireland did after WW1, but that’s a debate for alternative historians, not people on Wings. You’ll get your independence through the ballot box, and a united Ireland will be achieved the same way. We’re not living in 1916 anymore.
Capella
I clocked that interview with Arlene Foster this evening and was chilled when I heard the words ‘Unionist’ and the people of N. Ireland ‘don’t want a divisive and destabilising referendum’ all in the same sentence.
Scary stuff!
Hong Kong never had independence, it was seized by the British empire in the opium wars and sovereignty was later leased by the Chinese to the empire for 100 years. The lease ran out.
As for Australia, new Zealand and Canada, a clearer definition of independence is needed. They might have gained their own parliaments but they were still part of the empire.
The native populations of Australia, Canada and New Zealand were all but wiped out and replaced with colonists. Any peaceful arrangement the British Empire came to with their own people to give them more autonomy is not the same as a former colony being handed back to the natives, which as far as I know has never happened peacefully.
However, that is because that’s the way things were done in the past. In this day and age, a peaceful path to independence is possible and therefore there is no justification for any calls for violent means.
O/T john Pilger on the links of the Manchester Bomber and British Intelligence a must read.
http://johnpilger.com/articles/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know
In indyref2 I was approached by someone I reckon was a black flag agent provocateur advocating violence. I told him to forget it.
On another suspicious occasion a guy I’d never seen before came into the Yes shop wanting an extra large T-shirt, we didn’t have any. He then announced he was a racist and asked what I thought about immigrants. I told him Scotland is under populated and we need more. He left.
It will be worse for indyref2.
@ Meg merrilees – maybe there’s a Unionist training manual with a list of suggested soundbites. Ironic to be fighting an election on the policy of banning polls. But I suppose that’s Unionism in a nutshell. Anti- democratic.
@ Lenny Hartley – good link. John Pilger is one of the few real reporters left. The Westminster cabal has a lot of blood on their hands. Yet all attempts to bring them to justice, like Alex Salmond’s recent debate, are voted down.
Joanne @ 11.44
Well said, I also think that it would be madness to have some kind of constitutional stand off, with Scotland and Ireland looking to each other for ” haunners “, apart from everything else you said.
It gives the myth that the British state are very much more powerful than they actually are, or have ever been,so much so we need to band together to fight…..yawn.
It has always been a con there were never enough people on the big Island to control the little Island of Ireland,never mind all the lands that they did plunder
Espically when we remember that there were millions that never left the big Island anyway???
Most never left their own Town!
So it seems that it was done by bluff and convincing the invaded populations to accept their rule.
All of it….all the time…every time.
Did they EVER win an independance war?
Or did they just know what buttons to push to cause trouble, before they left?
They are, it seems ,no more than Bullshitters,very good one’s it has to be said,but the Emperor really does have no clothes!
But even more than all of that Joannie, I would never want Scotland to become to another Country,what Westminster is to us.
I am hoping to persuade enough people to get that worded properly and get it in our Constitution.
While it is very important that Scots rule and manage Scotland never again to be legislating from another Country,it’s also very important that Scotland never aspire to legislate FOR any other countries…. EVER.
Cooperation with yes…. joint legislators no!
Joannie so sorry I forgot to go back to the start of my comment and correct your name!
My tablet change’s it.
George Wood @ 9:41
These “electoral mandates” are what our democracy is based on. Its how parliament works. You seem to want to question the legitimacy of democracy and favour opinion polls, because presumably you think you’ll get the result you want that way.
Try stepping back a moment please.
The saddest and most astonishing part of all of this is seeing people, even elected politicians, arguing against democracy because they fear the result.
There will be another indyref. That was already voted on in the Scottish parliament. A lot of braver and better people than me died to make sure we have this right. Trying to undermine it is not a good look.
There could be Troubles ahead, but its unlikely.
We dont even know what’s going to happen next week, let alone indy ref2. Maybe there’ll be a hung parliament, with SNP involved. If that happens, there’s going to be more transfer of power to Holyrood, slowly but surely, until its all back in Scotland. Britnats will be frogs boiled in hot water, slowly but surely, there’s the nation state of Scotland.
Dont let the creeps out there like Rock put the frighteners on you:D
The lizard queen- think they maybe some truth in this noo lol
blob:https://vine.co/3e50b55d-02bc-4411-a4ff-4f314e106aee
Jamaica after a referendum on the west indies federation.
@ Liz g – completely agree with everything you said. I think you’ve touched on something a lot of the Brexit crowd don’t get – that the EU is 28 countries co-operating with each other to reach common positions on trade, the environment, workers rights, etc. They seem to think because Westminster isn’t ruling the roost that it must automatically be Brussels ruling the roost and dictating to little Britain. Its a bit sad really.
@joannie
you say,
`is not the same as a former colony being handed back to the natives, which as far as I know has never happened peacefully`.
I think Ghana got its Independence peacefully through the ballot box with native Ghanaians forming Gov.
Add willie rennie to the democracy denying cabal…his interview tonight with ponsonby was excruciating to watch..had to turn off the sound eventually, was the right choice..couldn’t believe the verbal bull waste material this guy spouts…it’s toe curling stuff….nicola has no right whatsoever to be part of the brexit negotiating team….the very idea of Scotland having input or dialogue is unthinkable…no, no, tessy has that covered we are british,voted that way and no exceptions, never, never never…I’m starting to hear shades of mr paisley, minus the accent but with the same vitriol…dugdale, Davidson and wee rennie all singing from the same hymn sheet…not a shred of self awareness between them…how do we deal with these misfits..ignore them, engage them or what..I’m at a total loss of what’s happening, and does the wider public realise what’s happening or care?
@scott finlayson – I’m afraid there was plenty of violence done in the name of Ghanaian nationalism. Like India and other colonies it was unsuccessful up until the post WW2 era when it became unprofitable and politically undesirable to keep hold of a troublesome colony. Then Ghana was “peacefully granted” its independence.
Ah stupidly watched the Willie Rennie wi Bernard show, ah have no wurdz. The bullshit that man has the barefaced cheek to utter in defence of his and the Tories cuts to public sector workers and those in receipt of benefits on the grounds of ‘reducing the deficit’ (which they aren’t and never were ever going to achieve) and the pains he goes to, to extricate himself and his party for overseeing the worst inflicted austerity on those who had nothing to do with the causes that led to the financial crash, are simply beyond speechless.
The rationale that those were difficult times (not for him and his ilk though) and they the Libdems curtailed the Tories are flat out lies, They literally bent over in coalition, they prevented nothing, they did not fight for those who have been hammered, they were full partners in implementing those society damaging policies, and now that little shit has the cheek to say they are the now champions of those very same people that they shafted by uturning to lift the cap on public sector wages?
Are we fucking kidding? Let’s be really really clear about who Willie Rennie and the Libdems are and what they would do if they ever get a whiff of a sniff of power again, if there was ever the possibility of a repeat of 2010 electorally. They would jump right intae the sack wi the Tories again.
They did not go into what was regarded at the time as the ‘natural’ coalition that was there for the taking with Labour, They abandoned every single stance, every principle they had to become the yellow Tories, the Blue Tories little helpers.
Let’s also be clear, they are not democrats, the exact same phrase is being used by him, Dugdale and Davidson over and over again ‘divisive referendum’, like little parroting mirrors of each other. Never trust a Liberal Democrat, they are the bitches of any party that will allow them ‘power’. And it’s power for its own sake, to enrich their own ego’s and pockets. They are a shower of prostitutes.
That’s the most and last I’ve and I’ll ever watch of that little nyaff again in my life. These people are sociopathic nutjobs.
Okay, ah hud a lot of wurdz 😉
Ah see we are on the same page Kat (figuratively and literally;-) )
Put it on wrang thread:
K1 says:
1 June, 2017 at 1:53 am
Nice one channel 4’s Krishnan slams it right back to David Davis as he accuses media of ‘bringing politics into disrepute’, its worth a watch tae see Davis’s face…ooft!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/870012023547072512/video/1
@joannie
all i`m reading about Ghana`s independence is nonviolent “positive action” campaign that lead to a vote,
anyhoo, Hong Kong was returned to its native population without violence needed.
@Scott – Hong Kong was leased from China and returned to China. Hong Kong shouldn’t even be in these types of conversations because its in no way comparable to a colony seeking independence. Hong Kong is a possession being bartered between two large colonial powers, at no stage has it been independent.
Ghana fought the British Empire for over a hundred years, and they didn’t do it with “non violent positive action”. They were unsuccessful, crushed horribly, and before they could get going again, WW2 broke out. In the aftermath of WW2, the British were offloading colonies because they were unprofitable and too much bother.
It was in that post WW2 era that Britain decided to stop massacring the natives and “peacefully grant” the Ghanaians independence.
https://caltonjock.com/2017/06/01/nurse-claire-austin-food-banks-and-pay-caps-the-bbc-debacle-malice-aforethought-the-ambush-on-nicola-sturgeon/
“Thepnr says:
31 May, 2017 at 9:55 pm
I think a pretty good time to watch the difference between our politicians and theirs again, like May who treats the public as if we all have the plague.
Here’s Alex Salmond meeting the public as he should do on the streets of Dundee 1st Sept 2014. Joyous so it is.”
Try telling that to Neil Gray of the SNP who refuses to attend an open and independent hustings in Airdrie. It’s took less than two years for this individual to become what Labour were before him: a party that took the local electorate for granted.
Heads will roll…..on the 6.30pm edition of mis-reporting Scotland David Porter ( Westminster correspondent) explains the format for the election debate later. Banned from the airways, UK No1 Liar, Liar is playing in the background! at about 12 mins http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08ryn41/reporting-scotland-evening-news-31052017
Joannie @ 12.47
I don’t think they get it…. I really don’t..
If they don’t… they are not the only ones.
I have seen prominent American Broadcaster’s claim they are being ruled by Canada and or Mexico, because of a trade agreement.
Then back track to,, it’s a plot by the WHOLE Wureld to enslave the viewer’s and listener’s…… using trade agreements of course….
All the trade agreements are eveil plots.
.. from the same crew in America that as far as I can tell were the very first to have said….Nobuddy can say the words Islamic Extremists Terrorists….or as near as makes no difference around the exact words.
Paul Nutjoabs word for word,tribute act to Alex Jones’s was pathetic.
But..
Seems like they are all copying each others narritive AGAIN.
They forgot about the internet AGAIN
We need an INTERNET POINTS BASED SYSTEM it’s really the only way forward!!! {LOL… cause it really is the only way to go}
K1
Wee Willie winkie would sell his granny, for another go on the bouncy castle.
🙂
Nice wee pic to start the ball rolling.
https://twitter.com/Superfind/status/870012624892833793/photo/1
Pachorse Pete and Ian Murray, its easy to dismiss UDI as laughable, where is your argument and reasoning? You both sound like a Tory and Labour activist when confronted with a possible legal way for a frustrated nation to secede
Remember folks its Dugdale, Davidson and May playing the real dangerous dirty tricks game here.
As for other nations they are watching and SON will have informed some of what might pan out.
Links
http://indyref2.scot/spot-the-democrat
http://www.businessforscotland.com/first-100-employers-sign-bfs-single-market-declaration/
http://www.stirlingsnp.com/snp-call-disgraced-tory-councillors-pay-back-wages-dodging-council-duties/
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/05/31/how-to-make-a-story-out-of-nothing/
http://tarffadvertiser.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/ho-hum.html
Brexit Divisions: Are We Really All ‘Re-Leavers’ Now?
https://www.scer.scot/database/ident-2286
http://blog.independencelive.net/the-dirty-truth-about-the-labour-tory-west-lothian-coalition/
https://www.autonomyscotland.org/ruth-davidsons-anti-democratic-rhetoric-is-dangerous-and-hypocritical/
Tough interrogation from pupils at Brae High hustings
http://archive.is/5NHbC
https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/05/30/claims-of-its-demise-have-been-greatly-exaggerated/
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11070/40000-strong-anti-fracking-campaign-hopes-win-full-ban-scotland
The government is trying to starve refugees out of the UK. It doesn’t work
http://archive.is/rpwHI
https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/86354/excl-brussels-prepared-postpone
NHS faces £500m-a-year bill post-Brexit for returning retirees, says thinktank
http://archive.is/2DzoL
https://www.raconteur.net/business/london-looks-set-to-take-the-hit-from-hard-brexit
http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/
Nana: Good Morning, another lovely day. Thank You, for Your links.
Kettle’s on! 🙂
Peace Always
Much appreciated as ever Nana. 🙂
Good morning Smallaxe, another fine day.
A few more links for later
Hahahahahajaha!!! She’s a thief she’s a liar ..
https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/870043421276336129
https://www.rt.com/uk/390292-tory-dark-ads-facebook/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/germany-theresa-may-donald-trump-complicit-us-policies-europe-security-risk-eu-paris-agreement-a7764661.html
http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/news-comment/2588-the-west-must-face-reality-saudi-regime-is-the-root-cause-of-islamist-terrorism
@Macart
You are welcome. I’ve just had a quick look through the comments and it looks as if some links have already been posted.
Sharp eyed Wingers strike again!
Not even a year since England decided to leap into the Brexit abyss with nutters like Fuhrage, Bojo, toryboy twerps like Mike Gove…
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-worst-performing-advanced-economy-world-post-brexit-slump-election-pound-sterling-a7766286.html
Does anyone believe that the Tories are purposefully trying to get the votes to the edge by trying to push through ever vile policies.
If they lose to Labour then labour will get the blame for anything detrimental during Brexit negotiations and if Scotland votes for Independence.
If they win they will feel that having tested the waters with these policies they could then go ahead and royally screw us as that is what the people voted for!
If they lose to Labour then labour will get the blame for anything detrimental during Brexit negotiations and if Scotland votes for Independence.”
Whatever Corbyn is, he looks like an experienced pragmatist, so if by some miracle he is the next PM, its likely he’ll cut a very soft Brexit deal.
Mayhem’s crew are almost certainly prepared to walk out of Brexit negotiations for that glorious UK Empire 2.0 madness.
End of May
Theresa May tragedy
Tragedy of Enola Gay
It is another day
Hope is the only way
After June 8th, when the SNP retain the vast majority of the WM seats in Scotland, we should start telling Ruth Davidson and the other Scottish Unionist “no ref” losers, loud and proud, that they should “respect the result”!
(In fact, we have been far too passive for far too long over that. It should already have been thrown back in the faces of the whole sorry lot after the pro-indy Holyrood result last year. And the EU referendum result in Scotland as well. Rude Muppet was elected to represent her Edinburgh constituents, who voted by a vast majority to Remain. Now she’s telling them to just shut up and eat their cereal.
If she were a commercial product, people would surely be quoting consumer law by now and demanding their money back!)
I think it’s high time that the oath of allegiance that all MSP’s have to take should be changed to swear allegiance to the people of Scotland and their Parliament, because all this anti-democratic Unionist loose talk by MSPs is dangerous and bringing Holyrood into disrepute.
“sae muckle as tired deep doon”
That little white rose of Scotland.
I find it very hard to believe the Tories want to lose the election. They were way ahead in the polls when May called it. Looks more like hubris. Typical Bullingdon Boy habit of swaggering into a venue, comprehensively trashing it, then swaggering out again leaving others to clear up the mess. They’re confident of coming out on top whatever happens.
But Theresa May isn’t in the Bullingdon Club. Like Ruth Davidson, she’s an oik, a useful idiot.
A few more links before I go out.
https://www.thecanary.co/2017/05/31/many-lies-amber-rudd-told-34-seconds-bbc-debate-video/
http://nyebevannews.co.uk/british-ambassador-why-would-anybody-believe-that-a-woman-who-is-not-even-capable-to-debate-with-her-opponents-would-be-a-good-negotiator/
Chunky Mark does it again. Wee bit sweary
https://twitter.com/chunkymark/status/870183459876212737
Superb piece from Derek Bateman. Reflection on the awful events of Manchester. The blame lies with the murderous jihadists. However, we need to explore and understand the reasons why it happened.
http://newsnet.scot/archive/election-may-turn-extraordinary-weaknesses-strong-stable-theresa-may/
Geez more rubbish through my letterbox, two more leaflets from the libdems [who is paying for this] and two more from the tories.
That makes 7 from the libdems and 5 from the tories so far.
Well what we are witnessing unionist style democracy in action, anything goes as long it on the unionist terms
and advantage.
Of course if Dugdale and Davidson seriously believe they can refuse to recognise any electoral mandate given to the Scottish Government by the people of Scotland.
Then surely that same principle must also apply to the unionist parties here in Scotland, then we should be able to refuse to recognise any electoral mandate they may claim to have at Holyrood and Westminster for the implementation of their policy agenda.
Read somewhere about Conservative/ Unionist policy and voters thrive on privacy and secrets and it got me thinking about the psychology of this. dug out a quote from Freud particularly the pleasure seeking Id.
It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learned from our study of the dreamwork and of course the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of that is of a negative character and can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething excitations. …It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organization, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle.[10]
Sounds likes Theresa’s approach to this election.
The UKs two elections
Featuring in England a Tory party whose support is dropping because they’re doing politics down there and what people say counts whereas in Scotland in the other election where the Tories have gone up but by complete contrast nothing to do with politics but because of sectarian division created by Ruth Davidson in order to win votes
It wouldn’t matter in Scotland if the Tories announced the murdering of firstborn children now because the dye is cast, it’s them or us politics from Davidson now and she doesn’t care how she does it
It will remain to be seen whether her own supporters find this sort of politicking acceptable in the long term
The Unionist parties will blame all this on the SNP which of course is nonsense for it was all three Unionist parties who executed their “divisive referendum” plan in collusion with each other so they could get to this point and once again the stupidity of the Labour party in following their masters instructions will damn them yet again long term
Willie Rennie will always play the innocent in any collusion but he’s as much to blame as the others
The SNP and wider YES support in Scotland is the most inclusive movement you could possibly find anywhere yet the Ruth Davidson party along with her compliant media have parroted the same mantra from the beginning and before this campaign and by repeating the words “divisive referendum” twenty four hours a day Ad nauseam has succeeded in making an offer to the public sound like Armageddon (David Cameron offered a referendum, Nicola Sturgeon threatens one)
Scotland is now firmly stuck in the same political place as Northern Ireland now the very situation the SNP had hoped to avoid, because let’s face it it’s a bad political place to be and without a shadow of a doubt entirely Ruth Davidsons fault
It was the only possible route for her to go down to resurrect what was going to be a dead parrot party in Scotland
But will she ever rue the day she caused this I kinda don’t think so because if there’s one thing Ruth Davidson excels at it’s shifting the blame elsewhere for her long term plan to get that red ermine coat in the same style as her pal Baroness Annabelle Goldie
And Fu.k Scotland
Looks like it worked- don’t hear her saying it much noo.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBOGvfRWsAE0pdG.jpg
Rock,
“Hong Kong didn’t get independence, it was absorbed into communist China.
Technically, New Zealand, Australia and Canada are still “dominions” and are still part of the Empire, in my view.
They have always followed the English imperial line and are full of union jacks.
Just a few days ago, the Australian Prime Minister spoke against Scottish independence.”
joannie,
“The native populations of Australia, Canada and New Zealand were all but wiped out and replaced with colonists. Any peaceful arrangement the British Empire came to with their own people to give them more autonomy is not the same as a former colony being handed back to the natives, which as far as I know has never happened peacefully.”
You are more or less agreeing with what I posted.
Rock,
“Could we possibly unite with the Republic of Ireland? Or at least threaten to?
We could then be both autonomous and remain within the EU!”
joannie,
“@ Rock – are you mad? Scottish nationalism has followed the constitutional route for over a hundred years, and now, just when you have independence almost within your grasp you want to switch tactics to violence and threatening to join a united Ireland??”
You need to visit Specsavers urgently.
Then you will see the ! at the end of my post.
When have I advocated violence? Did you understand what this article was about?
Thepnr,
“States the biggest fool ever to post on Wings. Covert Tory.”
“Rock I really really do feel sorry for you, are you lonely, do you need help?”
No, but you probably do.
I don’t apologise sincerely to someone who calls me bloody stupid without justification.
Robert Peffers says (to Thepnr):
27 March, 2017 at 7:40 pm
“Oh! For the Heaven’s sake stop being so bloody stupid. First of all you are not the person who decides what the purpose of the Rev Stu’s blog is. That’s the Rev Stu’s choice to make. Secondly you probably wouldn’t recognise a real Troll if it was chewing on your ear.”
Thepnr,
“I believe it is my fault that Robert Peffers has stopped posting and if it is it makes me very sad indeed.”
“I too wish to see Robert post again and if I upset you and caused you to leave Wings then please accept a sincere apology.”
Karmanaut 12.37am
Where did I say that I was against Independence or another referendum?
If you think with opinion polls showing support for Independence below 50%, that the unionists are going to roll over and agree to another referendum then you are going to be disappointed. They made that mistake once and they will not make it again.
Electoral mandates don’t mean much, particularly when parties are not single issue parties. Not everybody who votes for the SNP wants Independence and some people who support Independence vote for unionist parties.
I’ve supported the SNP since 1978, but I don’t agree with every policy of theirs. This is normal in politics.
So by Ruthie’s criteria Brexit is cancelled then. She’ll have notified Mrs Strong and Stable of course. Glad that’s all sorted.
What they have also said is, “We know that you are going to win, it is inevitable. But we are not going to allow that to happen, by playing the Dictator card.”