The unplucky 13
Pictured below are Ruth Davidson and her 13-strong* cohort of Scottish Tory MPs.
When they were elected earlier this month, the group rushed to tell anyone who’d listen that they were ready and willing to “defy” the UK leadership and act (ironically) as an independent party, standing up bravely for the people of Scotland.
They would be able to do so, they said, from a position of “unprecedented influence”, because without the Scottish Tory group Theresa May cannot get a majority to pass any legislation, even with the support of the DUP. It could be reasonably argued, then, that for that reason Ruth Davidson’s 13 are at least in theory the most powerful group of Scottish MPs in Westminster history.
So what concessions have they extracted with all that power?
Today sees the key debate and vote on the Queen’s Speech. Theresa May needs the votes of both the “independent”, “defiant” Scottish Tories and the DUP to win. And here’s what the respective groups have achieved from that negotiating position:
DUP: £2bn over two years, and very likely more to come
SCOTTISH TORIES: £0.00
Top defiance and influence there.
Readers may like to speculate on whether the spectacular absence of a single extra penny for Scotland – even after David Mundell bullishly and very explicitly promised lots more money just four days ago – is attributable to:
(a) the Scottish Tories simply being pathetic, snivelling lapdogs about as likely to actually stand up to the PM as set fire to their own testicles,
(b) their never actually intending to secure any money for Scotland at any point in the next five years at all, because that would in practice be money for the SNP to spend, or
(c) both.
As for us, all we’re saying is, don’t hold your breath for the Scottish Tory revolution.
.
*Alert readers will have noted that there are in fact 15 people in the picture. For some reason MSP Rachel Hamilton also gets in – we can only assume it’s in a desperate attempt to make the whole thing look like a bit less of a sausage-fest.
” look like a bit less of a sausage-fest.”
Ooh, you are naughty – but I do like you!
What’s the collective for a bunch of tory wet farts?
They get to bray from the benches at Westminster with their cronies.
That’s all they want.
They don’t give a testicle for Scotland.
Their might be a GE election called in a month or two, as TM says “ now is not the time “ I hope Labour do not back it this time and force the Tories to take all the blame for brexit and Scotland.
You refer to Davidson’s “13-strong cohort.”
I believe the subsequent article proves the lie of this adjective in this context.
Yours, etc.,
Those who thought that voting for the Tories would see them standing up for the people of Scotland really need to get back into real world.
Because the Tories in Scotland are never ever going to stand up and defend our people and country from the policies of a Westminster Tory Government.
We’ve already seen that with the £1Bn deal between the Tories and the DUP for Northern Ireland.
C. Definitely C. In fact, a whole bunch of Cs.
Defiance? Never. Inluence? Hardly. Putting the needs of Scotland first? Unlikely. Mmmmm….answer C for me. Plus they’ll most likely try to make life as uncomfortable for Sco Gov as possible (and consequently, the rest of us). I hope the next 12 months is “interesting” for them.
@wull2
Except Labour, at UK level, are 6 points ahead in the polls. Now Corbyn might want to take stock since trusting the polls at the start of an election campaign didn’t work out too well for the Tories. But he has making lots of noises about how will be the PM in 6 months etc so may have little choice in the matter for fear of looking weak.
He is also not getting any younger and needs to become PM soonish if he is to do it at all.
Their role is to vote as loyal British Nationalists to maintain their Union and a Tory government. The Scottish region of Greater England will have zero consideration.
That is how they campaigned in two elections. And that is what Scots who voted Tory must have desired.
Let us watch how this bunch vote at Westminster very carefully on matters pertaining to Scotland for the entirety of this parliament . It will be a good indicator to the people of Scotland where their Tory representatives true interests lie . It will be a tool to get them out at the next election !
Heedtracker; Twarts would seem appropriate. A right bunch of twarts. Works for me, feel free to use it.
The new tories sold Scots down the river within a week of taking their seats at westminster!
So more ‘wee willie winkies’ rather than ‘saveloy’ then.
@heedtracker.
A Splatter would do.
‘C’ I think.
People can’t say they weren’t warned. Mind you, I doubt very much that the people who voted for a Tory really gave much of a shit about representing Scottish interests or anyone’s interests but their own.
Well done them.
You get who and what you vote for.
Well I have them a week. Did nothing but attack @SNP.
So have now resorted to out them on Twitter. Luke Graham has been my biggest coverage. He was born and brought up in Swindon. Not that I hold that against him.
However his only link with Scotland is he won OPS seat and has no link or knowledge of area or Scottish politics.
He told me he would be happy to represent me ddespite our differing views on ‘separatism’ I corrected him on that.
Yesterday he voted against amendment to remove pay restraint on public sector workers.
He has a very restricted constituency surgery list covering less than half his constituency.
I hope all those who switched from Tasmina Sheikh a very good constituency MP are happy with London based Luke, who rest a weekend cottage from his election agent Alistair Mair.
If he is typical of the 13 then they will only undermine any gains and benefits SNP have brought to Scotland.
We need independence more than ever.
This group are bought and paid for by WM Tories for benefit of union and South East England.
This is where Luke Graham has his home and makes his money.
I very much doubt that the people that voted for these clowns could give a fat rats ass if they stood up for Scotland as long as there is NO REFERENDUM!!!!
Mundell has testicles?
They are tantric MPs. Voting to support Scotland is a power, so in not voting for Scotland they are retaining that mystical energy, focussing it as they meditate on the godhead (possibly May)…
…or they sad lobby fodder, happy to crush the poor, disadvantaged and disabled underfoot and laugh like deranged hyenas at defeating a motion to increase pay for nurses, fireman and policemen whom they expect to pick up the pieces of their corrupt and failed policies.
I leave the choice to you.
heedtracker says:
What’s the collective [noun] for a bunch of tory wet farts?
A “Mundell”.
“Mundell has testicles?”
Of course Mundell has testicles.
What else would May have him by.
!3. Unlucky for some.
“They are tantric MPs.”
Homeopathic. Beaten, watered down, and totally undetectable.
@Fred
I fear that remark can be construed as homophobic.
As far as a collective noun is concerned my favourite is “An Infestation of Tories”
Normally you put the wee bauchles at the front – are they trying to hide their wee ref?
Yeah, we saw them exerting their power yesterday. They could have ensured an end to the public sector pay cap, but collectively chose to back their masters and the DUP, ensuring the firemen and nurses, amongst others, remain skint.
Discussion just now about 1% tax to fund public sector pay, but no suggestion that reversing the hike in the higher rate starting point, foregone in Scotland, could be the answer to that one.
There is hope. Guy on far right (pardon the pun) is wearing a YES badge 😉
Tory voters, my parents included don’t think about public sector pay caps etc. My dad feels sorry for Theresa May. That’s how far out of touch people are.
mosstrooper says:
29 June, 2017 at 9:56 am
Heedtracker; Twarts would seem appropriate. A right bunch of twarts. Works for me, feel free to use it.
A skidmark of scotch tories?
You have to salute them though, they really do not give a flying fudge about what non tory Scots might think of them.
DUP getting at least a billion quid pay off, probably more than double, you’d think English tories might take the opportunity to show us all that Scotch tories really are batting for their Scotland region, say half a billion to Holyrood, show the plebs they’re tory serious, lovely chance to smite evil SNP, again, give Colonel Ruth something to come out of hiding for, not just another bunch of yoon bullshitters, but nah.
Its all going on the UKOK deficit/debt anyway, which is then used to terrorise vile sep Scots.
BBC Scotland gimps will mop up the DUP payoff. Just another day at the office for Pacific Quay attack propagandists.
“about as likely to actually stand up to the PM as set fire to their own testicles”
gun to my head, I really don’t know which I would rather have them do…
No money for Scotland? These are Tories. They’ll strive to extort the money to pay the DUP party FROM Scotland.
Can’t make out the buttons, but is that a regimental dress uniform Air Vice Marshall Davidson is wearing today? Or am I just looking at a very ordinary redcoat?
Collective name for the Westminster Tories baker’s coven?
Also need to remember that not one of them is thought good enough for a junior ministerial role at the Scottish Office or to be a bag carrier for Fluffy.
However, I do predict with confidence that they will very soon have sussed out how to maximize their return from the Westminster expenses gravy train
Sad really, when you realise just how many so-called Scots enthusiastically collaborate with the enemy. Fifth columnists one and all, whether they be M.Ps, M.S.Ps, M.E.Ps or councillors, not forgetting the part of the electorate who voted them into office.
The hundreds of years of brainwashing by the Westminster Establishment has certainly worked a treat for so many to be taken in, even to this day, by the propaganda that has them working against the best interests of what they proclaim to be, “their” country.
It’s bad enough having to jump to Westminster’s tune because of the September, 18th, 2014 result, but just imagine how much worse it would be if they were the Scottish Government.
It has always been a source of mystery to me why any citizen of a country would not wish their own people to govern them, but it seems a substantial minority in Scotland are quite happy for another country to be in control over most aspects of their lives.
Lets hope when Indyref2 comes along, that this time they are still a minority.
heedtracker 9:42
Twacks…. acronym:The Wild and Crazy Kingdom; a collective noun for ducks; a mix between Fuck and Twat.
I made the mistake of clicking on the picture to enlarge the Yes badge.
Boy, that was a mistake.
Ugsome shower.
And chocolate teapots.
(Thought the sausage metaphor was getting a bit racy).
Anyone who knows anything about westminster politics, knows they have to vote with the tory government or they would simply be sacked, any westminster government will do this, its not a new thing, remember Mrs Lamont , she was once the labour leader in scotland, as far as i know she was asked to sack one of her people in scotland, she refused, she had to resign, that’s just another way of being sacked, she said i will not be treated as a leader of the scottish branch of the labour party, i think she is now doing a fairly decent job on various committees in our parliament, i bet this lady had wished she had taken up with the SNP when she was younger, because of all the lies she came away with as the labour leader, she knows that changing sides for her is not possible ever
MajorBloodnok@10:15
A Disease of Tories more appropriate. Toxic waste spewing all over Scotland
Its not just thinking Scots who can’t understand why their fellow countrymen keep putting our country and its people down at every opportunity.
When I came out of the Guards, I didn’t have any interest in politics whatsoever.
However I was on a course at Oriel engineering training services, there was an Englishman there who I became friendly.
One day he said to me one I don’t understand you Scots, I thought he meant our language, he said no.
He went why do you Scots allow another Country to govern you?
If you Scots governed us English we would be demanding our independence, so why aren’t you Scots demanding yours?
I couldn’t give him answer,because its something I had never thought about.
Arlene Foster and The NI DUP got £billions for Northern Ireland,
Arlene`s political ideologies aside you would have to say `well done` she certainly squeezed Theresa for as much as she could get,
hopefully the bribe money won`t be squandered and all the citizens of NI will benefit,
as for The Scottish DUP (Davidson`s Unionist Party) and her Dirty Bakers Dozen of MP`s she held out for an honorary colonelship some beads and a mirror,
all for the benefit of Ruth Davidson.
Theses creatures are not Scots any more than the DUP MPs are Irish.They would be in the DUP if they lived in Northern Ireland.
They believe they live in a country called Grate Britin.
That,and they are just a wee bunch of pompous selfish snobs.
I doubt there will be any Papist Yoons among their number,but who knows.
I was wondering how the chap from Swindon was getting on. Ochil and South Perthshire is a bit of a commute.
Keep us posted Ian.
My area is now graced with a Mr Bowie. I have absolutely no idea who he is. Will do some research.
Perhaps we can submit an occasional update on their progress in Westminster, defying TM and the DUP. Seems they have all fallen at the first hurdle.
Macart 10.06am. Yes the proudscot loyal and english immigrants who voted for this lot, couldn’t give a f**k about Scotland or its interests.
Peter -The answer is of course that the majority of Scots have become so used to being told what to do. That they have become institutionalised. How many prisoners leave prison after 40 years and end up back inside.
There is a certain comfort for some people in being incarcerated and given just enough to survive. They often think of the world beyond the walls, but it’s just a dream to them.
The yes voters are the ones inside the prison who continually plan their escape as they can see how bad things are. We must open their eyes to the world beyond the union and make them realise that freedom begins with the first step…and it feels wonderful.
An ‘Excreta Of Tories’
I haven’t been able to access the Torygraph site for the last 3 days – all I get is ‘Server Error’.
Anybody else having the same problem?
One has to keep an eye on the lies excreted by the Bad Guys and their media fan club.
@mike d
A point of origin doesn’t make you a Tory voter.
How and ever, being selfish, intolerant, bigoted and empathy free helps.
ScottieDog: A few weeks ago, I was behind a car on the A90 that had a large Conservative Party sticker and an equally large Yes2 sticker in the rear window. Maybe it was the same bloke.
I’ve started calling them the “invisibles”.
I don’t expect to change their name in the future.
How sweetly ironic.
I bet Colonel Gadaftie was hoping for May to have such a thumping majority that her own little cohort would have made little difference to the overall picture – which is what usually happens in UK GEs. We normally get what England wants. We have this time too it’s just that a minority party in Scotland is effectively propping up the Tories in London.
Had the anticipated thumping Tory majority been delivered then Roofies Babies would simply have been lobby fodder. Now they do actually have the ‘power’ to exert ‘power’. Hell – how the eff did that happen, they must be asking themselves. “It’s no’ supposed tae be like this,” they’ll moan. “This’ll make us look bad if we don’t DO SOMETHING with the POWER we have over May.”
They have power they never wanted thus they have power they will never use. And all of Scotland is watching – and taking note.
How sublime.
Glenn Campbell – would you rather have Scottish MPs in WM shouting Scotland’s interests from the rooftops, arguing Scotland’s case every inch of the way or have a bunch of Tories with genuine leverage who do precisely nothing?
It’s an easy choice Glenn. And all of Scotland must now surely see that too.
I see that this crop of ne’er do wells are following Mrs May’s lead in seeking isolated rural locations for their photo-ops. Probably a good idea!
Gail Hughes 11.30am. Maybe he is trying to fool yes voters into voting tory. Lol
Gail- Now that is pure mental!
Was it Mundell, is he a double agent?
Wasn’t there 13 at the Last Supper?
Just sayin’.
Guy on the left has a great beer gut going on.
Sitting doing sod all but braying from a sedentary position, will add more heft nicely.
There are no Scots amongst them
They are Scotland deniers!
Macart ll.29am. So what i said is a lie then? Some people just don’t like the unpalatable truth.
Update: Andrew Bowie MP, WAK, ex Royal Navy officer. Educated Inverurie, Britannia Royal Naval College (Dartmouth), Aberdeen University.
Was head of office for Liam Kerr MSP and also was rural affairs advisor for Ian Duncan MEP, now Lord Duncan of course.
Well the Tories are certainly acquiring a bit of a military air. I wonder if he will become an Honorary Admiral?
What a shower of useless windbags.
They’ll find that they are listened to as much as 56 SNP MP’s were.
The only difference now is that Mundell will have other colleagues to moan with.
Saddened to read in the local rag that the Battle of Bannockburn Commemorations at the Rotunda on Saturday were visited by a United Irishmen Flute band ( from the outskirts of Glasgow, mostly about 19 years old it seems) who:
“marched up the drive playing their instruments to near the statue of King Robert the Bruce, where the main march had gathered.”
This has never happened before!
The arrival of the Irish Republican band ( surely that is the wrong description?) led to an angry exchange of words between their members and activists and the group “Siol nan Gaidheal” who were at the Rotunda area.
This is going to happen with increasing frequency folks – be careful on your YES stands.
Colonel Gadaftie has unleashed the monster.
However, the better news is that Stirling SNP and Labour councillors plus one of the suspended Tory reprobates (acting as an independent) voted down, by 15 votes to 9, a motion from Tory Councillors asking that a letter be sent to NS “urging the SNP to abandon its support for another vote on this divisive (Indyref) issue” backing an amendment that ‘local voters expect Stirling council to deal with local issues and leave constitutional issues to the national parliament’.
All this begs the massive question – who is being divisive in Britain today?
heedtracker says:
29 June, 2017 at 9:42 am
A ‘squitter’?
The Dirty Bakers Dozen
What a bunch of winnets…
O/T but relevant – Someone on a previous thread said they thought a lot of Scots are just plain thick and go where their pushed , Nothing i have seen recently contradicts that view , Despite the recent disasters and the obvious strain on the emergency services , and all the guff praising them the tories still managed to vote down a call for a relaxation of public sector pay , with that vote the tories were shown as bloody liars who dont give a f/k .
The 13 who could have shown a conscience , lack the basic moral compass and whats more they lack a Spine and are Gutless Cowards .
Am I the only one to realise that the amount for Scotland is a NEGATIVE number? If one billion is paid to Northern Ireland with no consequentials, does that no mean we put up roughly £100 million of that?
@mike d
I never called you a liar Mike, but I won’t label a vote to a nationality. There are a good number of posters on this site who are of English origin, or who have family members of English origin.
All parties and no parties. Home grown and all points of origin.
That’s the aim.
admiral said at 10:47am:
“Also need to remember that not one of them [Davidson’s Tory MPs] is thought good enough for a junior ministerial role at the Scottish Office or to be a bag carrier for Fluffy……”
To clarify for Newbies to Wings—Ian Duncan failed to win a seat in Scotland at this years’ General Election,however within days he was ennobled by Theresa May and her Majesty the Queen to join Bra Tory Baroness Michelle Mone and other appointees in the House of Lords [The Upper Chamber].
His undemocratic role in the governance of Scotland is in the Scotland Office,Whitehall London,as Under-Secretary of State where he will undertake duties including supporting/assisting Her Majesty’s Secretary of State for Scotland,David Mundell.
Ian Duncan was an elected Tory Member of the European Parliament [MEP]—-he’s resigning.
you’ve spelled “they’re” wrong, at the start of option b)
We need Independence sooner rather than later…..get rid of Tories they are only interested in looking after themselves.
Makes me scunnered looking at Ruth the mooth and her cronies
you’ve spelled “they’re” wrong, at the start of option (b)
Meg merrilees on 29 June, 2017 at 11:45 am:
All Councils are responsible for granting parade permissions within their own boundaries and decisions are normally made in agreement with the local police force. In this case Stirling Council and Stirling Police will be to blame for the clash of events. An investigation would seem appropriate.
The one on far left is Bill Grant. He originates from Rankinston Ayrshire once a small mining village with one road in and same road out. Father was a miner!Doubt he ever went back near it once he got the bus out one day after 1974 when the pit shut.
He always dresses the same. Jacket, jeans, check shirt and brogues. See he’s bought a new outfit for the commons a dour grey suit like the man he is.
I used to live in rankinston robbo. Drank in the bung. But i stayed away from Drongan with all they zombies floating about lol.
Liam says:
29 June, 2017 at 11:45 am
heedtracker says:
29 June, 2017 at 9:42 am
What’s the collective for a bunch of tory wet farts?
A ‘squitter’?
A skitter, of scotch tories?
Excrement and scotch tory does seem to have a ring to it.
For a collective noun I can’t decide between “a stench” and “an embarrassment”.
Your suggestion that gonads might be inflammable has me worried since I recall a school friend looking up ‘fart’ in a dictionary and finding it defined as “a small explosion between the legs”. Technically correct, but a little worrying all the same.
Did someone say the Scottish Tory MP’s needed a kick in their Barnett consequentials … maybe I misheard 😉
Macart i would never have a pop at the English guys/girls who have made Scotland their home, and want what we all want (my wife and 2 children are English). I think i get annoyed/frustrated by English voting tories who move to Scotland and want to impose those policies on us.
Watching FMQ’s now.. Nicola stop being so fucking nice to the tRuthless fuhrer, the smug lying piece of shite
Another Union Dividend
I see BBC Ceefax is leading with hyperbolic “Scots economy in precarious condition” to which the appropriate response is “That is why we need to get out of the bust UK state with its £1.8 billion debt which is hugely damaging Scotland’s economy”
“you’ve spelled “they’re” wrong, at the start of option (b)”
I don’t think so. I think ‘their’ is correct.
Robbo 11.59am. I am sure he (bill grant) now lives in the huns town of Maybole Ayrshire,where I’m sure he’ll fit right in.
hello stuart, upthread 11.53
I don’t believe it’s a sp error, rather more an unusual way of framing the sentence, but happy to concede otherwise if required.
Mind you, I might be in bed by then, here in the Antipodes.
Bob p says:
29 June, 2017 at 12:03 pm
I used to live in rankinston robbo. Drank in the bung. But i stayed away from Drongan with all they zombies floating about lol.
Aye Bob. Drongan will be the usual shitely place this weekend and next and will never change there. My domain years back was
damell-in lol much the same there,but i could go out there as i never lay down tae them.AND they kent it.
But it just goes to show how the world in Scotland has changed when the likes of him can win as MP for South Ayrshire and take a seat as a TORY at WM coming from a mining village in the back of beyond! It’s a strange old world ain’t it.
Don’t suppose you ever came across him when he grew up there?
Proud Cybernat says:
29 June, 2017 at 11:37 am
Wasn’t there 13 at the Last Supper?
::::::::::
Yes, but only one Judas.
“…UK state with its £1.8 billion debt which is hugely damaging Scotland’s economy”
£1.8 TRILLION debt that’s damaging Scotland.
@mike d
It can be frustrating Mike. There are days when it feels like pushing a pea uphill with your nose trying to convince new Scots. I’d say newcomers still trying to get their head round Scottish politics are the most… challenging. It takes some a while to acclimatize to be sure, but as evidenced by the excellent Journey to YES vids by Phantom Power, it’s not impossible to change the union viewpoint.
As for those who’ve always voted Tory and likely always will? Some folk you just can’t change. It’s who they are and what they believe. Tory from their toes on up.
“Mundell has cojones?” nuthin homophobic aboot that! He husnae!
Leslie Riddoch excellent in todays National.
@Big Jock
29 June, 2017 at 11:25 am
I completely understand what you are saying, as others posters have said on other threads, its like the Stockholm syndrome.
Undermine peoples confidence in themselves by telling them they are not programmed to take decisions and that after being part of a 300 year old most successful union in history their country is an economic basket case which couldn’t survives as an independent country.
But there are plenty of other sources including people from other countries which would educate them as to why its better for them to govern and take decisions themselves and get the Government they vote for.
I suspect for some it maybe that they simply can’t be bothered because it would contradict what they were conditioned to believe.
So the Tories have voted to maintain the public sector pay cap? Where’s Nurse Claire’s pointy-pointy, accusatory, finger when you really need it?
Or do Tories have to take some kind of hypocritical oath?
These gits are much more likely to make sure that Scotland’s budget, (sorry, crumbs sent to Scotland once they have taken revenues including a few quid from our worthless oil) is cut by £2billion, and some more cuts to what should be EU money for Scotland which the UKgov divvy out how as they see fit, ie, Scotland gets the crumbs, again.
Anyone who laughed at WM yesterday when they rejected ending the pay cap, well, they are the lowest form of human being. They will laugh on the other side of their faces one day. I hope they rot in hell.
Anyone who condones and celebrates a cut in pay to our public service workers I hope never needs to go into hospital or need a fire putting out. If it were me, and I knew who they were, I would give them a toy water gun to put their house fire out. Here you go, it’s all we could afford!
These gits who work against Scotland are just despicable. What happened about the one who seemed to not even live in Scotland. They are corrupt as hell the lot of them, sewer dwellers.
You can tell they are not my favourite characters can’t you. Anyone lacking in ethics and empathy should not be working in politics.
eh? I am naive, have a good day all!
@ Gail Hughes at 11.30
This appears to be genuine (I think; I’m happy to be corrected):
https://www.facebook.com/ConservativeVotersForScottishIndependence/
They have a twitter account, too.
………
@ everyone talking about they’re/their – the use of the possessive is correct. It’s one of many aspects of English that are slowly being altered in common usage, and it will eventually become obsolete. But currently, it’s the right part of speech to use.
It may help if you eliminate option a), so that it reads
That should make it obvious that they’re would not make sense. The only possible alternative is them, which is wrong but will be what takes over in the future.
Re BBC Ceefax
If as the BBC say the Scottish economy is in a precarious position-then it doesnt say much for the union does it? Considering it has happened under the uk union aka London Governments financial watch/mismanagement. Work that one out yoons and stop being utter mugs taken for a ride by wastemonster!
Robbo 12.23pm. Didn’t really get to know many people in rankinston,as i stayed there at my sisters for about 3 mnths after my divorce. Couldn’t get a job anywhere (early 80’s).so hightailed it down that long Hill outa there for London. Best thing i ever did. Lol.
G@12.16
Actually, it should be ‘they’re’. A shortened version of ‘they are’. Their, would be for, ‘their’ contempt for the people. Oh I dunno, maybe it can be either! English was never my favourite subject, I find German easier to understand. My son says that the english language is the worst and most complicated and daft language on the planet.
Colonel Blimp and her bawless britnats. Tractors.
Many Scots seem to have forgotten just how disastrous the tories were for Scotland. They have now had lesson No1 to jog their memories, with no doubt many harsher lessons to follow.
Though, as others have said,many who voted tory this time don’t give a damn about Scotland anyway. “Better 100 years of the tories” etc.
“My son says that the english language is the worst and most complicated and daft language on the planet.”
First we chop a tree down, then we chop it up. 😀
Thirteen Tory MPs from Scottish constituencies who simply CANNOT vote for Scottish interests at Westminster otherwise the Tory Government would probably be defeated.
These 13 MUST know how their seats were won and what purpose they are meant to serve viz. the defeat of Scotland’s Independence.
They will be at Westminster till near the end of the Brexit negotiations and/or the next Independence Referendum. They will be needed if Theresa May is to cling to power and complete the task of securing the future of the British Establishment by preventing Independence.
England is in the biggest mess since the Black Death in the mid 14th century when around 40% of the population died of disease caused by fleas. Today, the disease is greed – the principal symptom of Neoliberalism – brought to these shores by Ronald Reagan who infected the brain of Margaret Thatcher, and the rest is history.
All 15 of the people in the above photograph carry the same disease. Greed is what gives them their energy and motivation, while Scotland’s wealth is the object of that same greed.
It’s that simple.
13,,,,Unlucky for the majority of Scots.
Less then a month and already proved to be the supine 13.
Stoker 11.55
Interesting point. To be pursued…
I wonder if it is relevant that an onlooker said;
‘ from what I could see the flute band didn’t take part in the main march. They marched up the drive, playing their instruments to near the statue of King Robert..where the main march had gathered.’
In other words they did not march on the road and only within the grounds of the monument.
I’ll report back at a later date.
@stuart
think Stu used `their` to mean the `Scot Torys`.
Did Nicola Sturgeon not miss a trick over farmers’ CAP payments at FMQs?
This is EU money and UK government syphoned off an unfair share of Cameron’s rebate which should have gone to Scottish farmers.
The fact that 80% was paid over in November is not widely known and again highlights fact that SNP doesn’t have a proactive rebuttal unit which could post responses on topical bread and butter issues on the SNP web site so that the 120,000 members can find these easily at http://www.snp.org.
Unless SNP wins Holyrood next time round there will be no IndyRef2
PS IAN MURRAY in Edinburgh Evening News to-day claiming that he strenthened the Scotland Bill but no mention of his abstentions and opposition to all SNP amendments .
Can’t find an online link.
A lot worry about ‘their’ or ‘they’re, it looks like it should just be ‘they’. So either could be an auto-correct thing, if he uses it, or when reformatting the sentence it was missed. Does it matter, I understand the point.
Well the bottom line is that 10 DUP politicians have just managed to WANGLE £200 million per head, paid by us the UK mainland tax-payers, with more money, Billions, to come of course.
Poverty stricken Scotland with it’s manifold resources and assets, ESPECIALLY in comparison to NIreland, is now with 9% of the UK population forking out £222 million to this bunch of morons.
No doubt some of this money will be siphoned off to add to their dark monetary donations to undermine our battle to achieve our Independence.
They say that £millions more will be spent now on enhancing broadband in NIreland which was already on the way to being the best fibre broadband network in Europe, thanks in the main to EU funding. That’s the EU that the DUP sleekitly attempted to undermine, and succeeded, with the use of their secret donations.
‘Foster claimed the fibre network will help Northern Ireland attract new types of business, as well as provide much-needed connectivity for existing businesses. ”100% access to broadband is a very powerful selling point for us, she said. All sectors rely on connectivity. It does free up people to live in rural areas, she added. They don’t have to go to London, they don’t have to go to New York.”
http://www.alphr.com/news/broadband/363124/northern-ireland-to-have-best-broadband-in-europe
Meanwhile many areas in very wealthy Scotland, such as Orkney, Shetland and the Highlands (with all that oil and gas) rank LOWEST of the 389 UK areas monitored, the Scottish Borders has the 28th slowest speed and Glasgow and Edinburgh have been ranked 193rd and 264th in the table.
Handy don’t you think if you’re trying to repress a Nation, suppress information, depopulate the country and scupper their economy?
http://theukbulletin.com/2017/06/27/scottish-areas-worst-for-broadband-speeds-says-which/
Davidson has tried to explain this situation away by saying that Scotland has had additional money ‘gifted’ by Westminster in City deals. She seems to have missed the obvious and that is that NIreland isn’t a City, has also received City deal funding and also receives more money per capita than Scotland through Barnett. Additionally the amount of money the DUP are receiving now puts City deal dough to Scotland look like peanuts.
Davidson et al at Holyrood and their mates in London constantly berate the SNP in relation to our NHS, education and so on (better than theirs). £2.9 billion, our share, however would have gone a long way to dealing with the challenges that we face in these areas and also in alleviating poverty. The £2.9 billion that we ain’t going to get as Theresa May quite tellingly pointed out yesterday to Ian Blackford ”he’s a Nationalist not a Unionist” at 12.21pm.
Note too the out and out lying, Tory erse, Mundell, who’s supposed to be representing Scotland, smerking away on the benches.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/de9cc815-b492-4d39-8bd0-23f8ca2b0e59
I just wonder how much it will take for some Scots to see the light. If this latest kick in the teeth doesn’t, what will?
DUP/Westminster about to declare direct rule of Northern Ireland?
Who puts out these photos? If it’s ‘Story HQ’ then their attention to detail is pathetic.
The tank, their ‘leader’ has blinked!
In these days of digital imaging there is no excuse for putting out a photo where someone, particularly the person centre front, has blinked. You can take dozens of photos and simply keep the one that works.
A complete lack of care, which probably stems from the top.
A final thing, none of the sausages are wearing ties – what is the tank trying to prove with an edict like that?!!
Ooops the £2.9 billion share for Scotland mentioned in my last post relates to one year only. Over two years it would be £5.8 billion.
OT
So if we’re putting the YES band together, then who do we contact? How do we link in to the central nervous system?
I had an idea a couple of days ago about an open letter to Michel Barnier to relate the problems we have with our media, and to ask for him to insert a formal clause or condition into the Brexit negotiations whereby Scotland secures a degree of autonomous broadcasting set up in time for the ScotRef debate. The plan was to invoke a Declaration of Arbroath type of format, but take that format, and through YES, try to get as many signatures as possible from Scotland, Scottish diaspora, and YES minded Europeans. The aim being to get our document signed by hundreds of thousands of people, from Scotland and all over Europe.
I’ve mulled it over a couple of days, and I still think the idea holds water. The idea might actually work, the letter/petition might actually deliver some broadcasting, nothing too ambitious but “something”, the mini campaign within a campaign could oil the wheels of the YES machinery, small pledge favours like the seals at the bottom of the real Declaration of Arbroath could be a distinctive fund raising idea, and the whole Declaration of Arbroath context chimes with getting Europe up to speed with Scotland’s sovereignty and its significance in Brexit.
I’ve also talked about instigating a Festival of Journalism, and summits to discuss Brexit issues which combine to bring EU Leaders to Scotland, and marry this idea with the concept of a new written constitution which has the same Declaration of Arbroath at its heart.
2020 is the 700th anniversary of the Declaration, which was in itself a plea for help from a beleaguered Scotland to the powerbase of Europe, and the Document that did it is a UNESCO Memory of the World. We could if we so desired choose to make something with resonance. It strikes me all of these Irons put into the same fire could be fashioned into something unique and potentially very powerful for Scotland, and capture the mood of the people.
If there was a YES committee, or some kind of core coordinating group, I’d really like to see the idea moving forward because it strikes me the idea has YES running through it like Brighton Rock.
What do YOU think? If we want to go further, what is the next step?
Aah – Scotland’s 13 Tories… Didn’t they “do well”?
No, I didn’t think so either.
Ross Thomson was quoted a couple of days ago in The Scotsman as saying that the Scottish Tory MPs at Westminster would “always fight for Scotland’s corner and we’ll do so from the heart of government”.
On the basis that extra funding is only going to Northern Ireland, it seems that the Tory-Scot “fighting spirit” has resulted in them being given a sound thrashing, and left hanging over a barbed wire fence with nothing to show for their efforts.
To add insult to injury, all this damage was inflicted by their own party!
As the military might say, a case of a “blue on blue” incident?
Genuine question. If the Scottish referendum, for whatever reason, is not held until 2020 or 2021, after Brexit is finalised, will European citizens living in Scotland still be allowed to vote?
Some more dis-ingenuity from the Tories at Holyrood. They want free personal care extended to those under 65 with dementia. Nothing wrong with that, but they also want tax cuts at the same time. A bit of positioning to put the SNP budget under pressure rather than any actual interest in those with dementia I suspect. Beware of the Tories apparently bearing gifts, they have other motives.
Of course reported by BBC as not supported by the SNP, we see how it works BBC, we’re not fooled.
Boab couldn’t have gathered a bigger bunch of machine weirdos than this crowd of misfits if she had tried. Mundell is almost normal compared to the rest of them. You make a very good point when you said the Scottish tories didn’t, and will not ask for money to be spent in Scotland because that would mean giving it to the SNP. Party politics at the expense of your own country as long as the evil SNP don’t benefit.
The Ruth Davidson Chocolate Teapot Party
Re background above on Tory MPs – Bill Grant lives in Ayr. Popular councillor for 2 terms mainly for personally keeping streets clean. Did not stand in May council elections as family against/said he’d done enough/health reasons/time to relax and enjoy life. I can only guess he let his name be put forward for GE to garner personal votes, never expecting to win. Can’t believe he is happy at having to be in London 4 days a week and all the hassle of setting up local office and holding surgeries. Candidate for missing votes at Westminster? early by-election??
O/T
From yesterday’s PM questions, Gavin Robinson (DUP) requested assurances and agreement from the minister regarding industrial strategy in NI and to enter into discussions with the ministry of defence regarding the golden opertunity for shipbuilding in NI. The assurances and agreements were confirmed by the minister.
The possibility of the transfer of the frigate contract to NI was flagged up on wings a week or so ago when May was seeking the help of the DUP.
Take note upper Clyde.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
29 June, 2017 at 12:16 pm
Another Union Dividend
The Uk Debt is around £1.7 trillion and heading to 90% GDP totally unsustainable. In 2005 it was around £0.5 trillion so much for good financial stewardship by our masters in Westminster.
@Breeks 1:47pm
Interesting idea. The Declaration must be celebrated but if it was Scotland alone doing the celebrating I could imagine the britnat bbc treating it as something parochial. Far better to get other nations to publicly acknowledge the importance of the Declaration, and to do so in an official manner. An official invitation to the FM to address the EU parliament would be a good idea.
The Boaker’s Dozen!
As predicted Ruthie goes for farm payments – Why doesn’t Nicola let the chamber and the BBC know the history of these payments, Ruthies bosses down south have never made these payments on time, hit the tories right between the eyes, and get up and slap the fecker . Oh and here comes Kezia missing the target once again, she’s past any kind of benefit of the doubt, she’s just Thick .
Strange that they put the tiniest wee guy at the back. Apparently he’s got extraordinarily tiny hands too which explains why he’s a ref and not a goalie.
Stories on BBC Scotland Politics page with comments open for the usual barking mad Nicola hating morons to pile on:
Scots economy in ‘precarious’ position
Government to ‘fall short’ on farm payouts
PM refuses to answer SNP’s DUP question
Sturgeon puts referendum plans on hold
You would think there werent any other political parties in Scotland. Ive been waiting in vain for a Kezia or Ruth story with comments open. This will be the subject of a complaint soon.
Breeks first port of call for Yes movement is at:
http://www.mobilise.scot/
As well as registering you will also find a facility to feed in ideas.
jfngw says:
29 June, 2017 at 1:53 pm
Some more dis-ingenuity from the Tories at Holyrood. They want free personal care extended to those under 65 with dementia
They are a bunch of hypocrites. When did Tories ever give a shit about free anything for anybody. Let’s see their Westminster colleagues campaign for free personal care!
Quite transparently just political point scoring.
Good idea Breeks. A petition makes sense. What about contacting some key individuals (we all know who they are) and see what they think before you dive in? What they can add to this, if anything? I’d start with Craig Murray.
Between one thing and another we’ll get there.
@gus1940 says: 29 June, 2017 at 11:26 am:
“An ‘Excreta Of Tories”.
in view of the poor, sick, old and disabled that have died by way of Tory Policies I’d have suggested, Aa Murder of Tories”, except the Crows got there first.
https://plus.google.com/+RobinFearon/posts/3JviWQLeGu4
“The Uk Debt is around £1.7 trillion and heading to 90% GDP totally unsustainable. In 2005 it was around £0.5 trillion so much for good financial stewardship by our masters in Westminster.”
That should be the first question at PMQ every week.
A theory: delayed gratification.
Ruth will hide out from the current storm, but will get a bauble from May Bung #2, in 2019 when the current deal runs out. Cue Scottish MSM cheering, timed to spike the SNP’s guns as they announce indyref2
A ‘suppuration’ of Tories.
*boak*
@ heedtracker says:
What’s the collective for a bunch of tory wet farts?
How about a ‘litter’ of Tories?
@Glamaig
It’s more than points scoring, it’s a bill that if passed has not been budgeted for. Not sure what the timescale is, but these type of bills should include a revenue source and if there is none what the proposers want cut to finance it.
I think the SNP need to take a very hard look at their PR . How is it the Unionists seem to be on the case of anything the SNP does that they do not like , (which is most of the time ), within seconds . They proceed to have it reported far and wide in ALL MSM for every Tom , Dick and Harry to see and hear . Someone should be up to speed on the SNP PR case 24/7 and be ready with rebuttals . They also need spokespeople that are well versed in their answers and can take on criticisms with good sound arguments , good strong voices , overriding the Gary Robinson ‘s etc. of this world
Breeks @1.47pm
Re – anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath in 2020, are you aware of local plans? See https://www.dundeeandanguschamber.co.uk/news/Plans-Announced-for-Arbroath-s-2020-Declaration-Celebrations-_0_3385.html (I’m not involved – just came across this by chance.)
This is an occasion that also needs to be marked nationally.
jfngw says:
29 June, 2017 at 3:26 pm
it’s a bill that if passed has not been budgeted for.
Apparently its 3000 people compared to 85000 over 65s (figures from dude on Radio Shortbread this morning so no warranty) so possibly could be budgeted for, but then opens the way for demands for every medical condition under the sun to demand free personal care which is probably not sustainable. Every time its knocked back its another SNP BAD. So cynical.
Good point though, all bills should come with a proposal of how they are going to be paid for.
If the DUP can get 1.5 million extra with 10 votes whet will Mundell get with 13
Bi chance here fro Ruth to show her metal
UK is £1.7 trillion in debt,
why not just print more money?
why keep borrowing?
Quantitative easing put billions into economy but didn`t effect inflation.
All that talk! all that bluster!We all knew it was bullshot but I really do wish they would go back to their day job! (prior to the labour party supporters electing them)
Be afraid, people. Looks like direct rule for Stormont.
Whilst it’s been suspended in the past, it’s never been under these circs, with DUP in the gov’t cabinet
Whilst I’m sure the people of NI have no wish to go backwards, how can this situation be interpreted as anything other than a deliberate step backwards, aided and abetted, by the UK govt.
I wonder if this is where the DUP wanted it to go when they knew to Tories would need them.
I still haven’t figured out what a Scottish Tory voter is made of never mind a Scottish Tory MP. I’m totally at a loss here.
I mean do so many people in Scotland, that is 28.6% really want to see Tory policies enacted. Theresa May almost gave the game away when before the election she boldly stated that the winter heating allowance would be means tested.
Then that your home would be sold if you required care in your own house due to infirmity in old age. We have £9000/year tuition fees in England and Wales. I’m old enough to remember that there were no fees and you actually got a grant to help with costs when you went into tertiary education.
The Tories never stop bleating about the attainment gap between wealthier households and the poorest households. How do landing students with £10’s of thousands of debt at the end of their courses reduce that gap? Obviously it doesn’t, only the poorest remain in debt as the wealthiest will ensure their sons and daughters have no debt by shouldering the burden themselves.
I’ve read that the DWP Atos and Capita tests costs more than the money “saved” that they remove from the disabled. Who is benefiting?
The Government is spending more money assessing whether people are fit to work than it is saving in reductions to the benefits bill, a damning official report has revealed
The study by the National Audit Office (NAO) found that the Department for Work and Pensions is handing over £1.6bn over the next three years to private contractors who carry out the controversial health and disability assessments.
But at the same time, the Government’s own financial watchdog has warned that savings in benefits payments are likely to be less than a billion pounds by 2020 as a result of the new tests.
https://archive.is/CxSEa
So just who are the type of people in Scotland that would vote for more of this disgrace? I’ve no idea but they aught to take a good long look in the mirror.
I thought it was already decided, it’s a
TWUNT of tories
I wasn’t Stewartb @ 3:32, but thanks.
I hope Angus Council holds the Declaration of Arbroath in much higher regard than Stirling showed towards the similar 700 year anniversary of Bannockburn, with their armed forces day deliberately programmed to coincide. Quite shameful.
I can’t think of any more fitting backdrop to the anniversary of the Declaration, than to see that event as one of the first civic events to be held in a new and Independent Scotland, at the centre of Europe and in tune with our worldwide diaspora.
13 Tories . Which one is Judas? All of them? Doubting Thomas? Did I hear a cock crow or is it cluck?
Only the DUP has the true blue answer direct from the big Guy/ess/other/ prefer not to say, in the sky.
Here’s a complete list of the Scottish Tory name and shame MPs:
Aberdeen South Ross Thomson
Angus Kirstene Hair
Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock Bill Grant
Banff & Buchan David Duguid
Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk John Lamont
Dumfries & Galloway Alister Jack
Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale David Mundell
East Renfrewshire Paul Masterton
Gordon Colin Clark
Moray Douglas Ross
Ochil & South Perthshire Luke Graham
Stirling Stephen Kerr
West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine Andrew Bowie
Thepnr – Spite pure and simple vindictiveness, they can so they do, As the laughter from Ruthie and her wee gang when presented with the disgraceful Tory vote against the relaxation of the wage cap on public service workers, assisted by Scottish Tory MPs, let’s face it they don’t give a f/k it’s all a jolly game, the sight of Dugdale assisting the Tory party is sickening beyond belief .
Ah but Thepnr none of those policies were on the election literature it was all no second referendum.
Looks like the DUP have scored again with NHS England picking up the tab for the abortions of NI women.
And in name order: (Scotland’s name and shame Tory MPs)
Andrew Bowie – West Aberdeenshire & Kincardine
Colin Clark – Gordon
David Duguid – Banff & Buchan
Luke Graham – Ochil & South Perthshire
Bill Grant – Ayr, Carrick & Cumnock
Kirstene Hair – Angus
Alister Jack – Dumfries & Galloway
Stephen Kerr – Stirling
John Lamont – Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk
Paul Masterton – East Renfrewshire
David Mundell – Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale
Douglas Ross – Moray
Ross Thomson – Aberdeen South
Another fudge on the cards for Stormont , direct rule from Westminster is the last thing T May wants or could afford .
@heedtracker
A “tantrum of Tories” would seem to be an appropriate collective noun for them.
Saw it today but cannot remember where – if anyone knows, please give the attribution.
@Scot Finlayson
“UK is £1.7 trillion in debt,
why not just print more money?
why keep borrowing?
Quantitative easing put billions into economy but didn`t effect inflation.”
Indeed. The central bank, the Bank of England now owns one quarter of UK debt. It’s effectively cancelled as there is no interest paid on it.
The remaining ‘debt’ is actually our saving, since govt bonds are really just savings accounts held by pension funds, banks etc. The return on these bonds is guaranteed since the UK is the sole issuer of pounds.
The thing that isn’t talked about is that the money must exist before a bond can be issued so there is actually no need to issue debt. That would of course upset the bond markets who would be pleading with the government to issue more debt!
The real problem in the UK is that of private debt (bank created money) which sits at around £5 trillion. £1.5 trillion of that is household debt (mortgages, credit cards etc). There will certainly be no moves by the treasury or the Bank of England to buy that back, although this is exactly what needs to happen – effectively a modern debt jubilee.
A herd of arseholes
from the day they were born
and till the day they die.
Tr—-rs everyone of them.
I agree with everything that’s been said about these disgusting tractors, but let’s also not forget about the enormous damage that was inflicted on Scotland and the Scots by liebour over 50 years , pre and post Blair .
IMO Corby and his resurrection is also going to pose significant problems for indy 2 ,we also have to keep highlighting their incompetence in and out of government, highlighting and reminding people of their abstentions when it comes to welfare ,benefits ,bedroom tax and supporting tory policies , the electorate have proven they have short memories we have to keep reminding them that liebour are still red tories
BTW Breeks that is a great idea a petition aligned with the Arbroath anniversary
@another union dividend@ 1.27pm
You say that if the SNP do not win the next holyrood election there will be no indyref2 !
Did you miss the FM’s speech the other day, and subsequent interviews, where she was very clear that indyref2 was absolutely on the table in THIS parliament ?
Why should anyone wanting independence, vote SNP at the next Holyrood election if the mandate won at the last Holyrood election is not acted upon ?
If that mandate is not used BEFORE the next Holyrood election, there is a real chance the SNP will lose it.
The “Thralled Thirteen” shall not escape continual scrutiny, in this day of the interweb, and criticism when deserved, scorn when merited, and derision when demanded.
Back to Mundell….
Faced with giving the SNP Scottish Government an extra £3bn via barnett on the back of the DUP deal, Mundell has CHOSEN to shaft the Scottish People to party political point score against the SNP.
He seems incapable of realising that if the Tories at WM were seen to be giving Scotland £3bn, that might actually HELP the tories up here…!!
While the SNP SG would SPEND the money, the tories could have claimed the CREDIT for giving it to them.
Instead they chose to tell Scots to fuck off.
Open goal missed by the tories, all because they hate the SNP.
Then the Scottish tory group compound their error by voting AGAINST a public sector pay rise in line with inflation rather than a real terms CUT of AT LEAST 1.7%.
Are Scottish public sector workers paying attention to this stuff ?
Vote No, get a tory government.
Get tory, get a pay cut.
Still think we are better together ?
If so, what exactly IS better together about this stuff again ?
Yes, a true Dozy Boakers Dozen.
But the thing is, they have to move beyond Ruth’s flatulent rhetoric now. It was relatively easy for her to zone in on many people’s current neurotic aversion to the Brexit consequentials, but now they have to deliver. Many voters just wanted easy validation of their state of denial, and Ruth gave it to them in spades with her “no to indyref2” spiel. (Backed up of course by her naive little helpers Kez and Wee Willie and backed to the hilt by an ever-eager BBC.)
Now in this unique situation they should have more power than the DUP. If only they were willing to do what the SNP will certainly do given the chance, and stand up for Scotland’s interest, instead of acting like useless muppets.
How quickly people can forget. A lot of people, especially in rural areas, have been lulled into thinking that SNP governance is failing, but with this load of useless twats in WM, they will soon discover what true failure is like. (As eg. did those voters down south who had their wild little flings with UKIP and even the NF in some places.)
Maybe there is a payoff planned for later, as Tamson said upthread @ 15:05, but (among other things) the SNP really do need now to keep highlighting the Davidson Unionist Party’s collective inability to achieve anything worthwhile within their self-imposed Tory Unionist straightjacket.
@twathater
That was before the upsurge in bloggers, twitter, facebook, and even MSM forums.
The Thralled Thirteen [1] can run, but they can’t hide.
[1] Saw that elsewhere, (poster RH), but it might not be his own incredibly accurate depiction of the teacake Tories.
A wee suggestion.
Every single time the Thralled Thirteen vote, an article showing how they voted, and what they voted on?
Only in the Scotland region and Another proud Scot buts day. Whatever you say about vile seps, imagine being this much of a scotch cringer.
http://www.irvinetimes.com/news/15380298.Saltire_removed_from_North_Ayrshire_HQ_following_flag_debate/?ref=fbshr
Well according to Mundels wiki page , it says he only has one testi , but its a “goodin’.
Wow !!
Just read this…http://archive.is/sk5BF
Ruth Davidson ain’t going to like this…!
geo
Mundell has no say in what happens, the Westminster Tories decide.
@Heed
Good stuff. The Independent councillor had the best quote:
Councillor Ian Murdoch said he would abstain in the vote, adding: “I’m so embarrassed we’re even debating this.”
Problem for gungho gallagher is that all Scots just about respect the Saltire, and many unionists have been “taking it back” for Scotland.
He’ll have pissed off many on his own unionist side.
Death of the Union by a thousand drips.
geo
Mundell has no say in it, the Westminster Tories decide.
Rowett is trying to create some sympathy for Davidson, May and Davidson sink together.
This is completely off topic,
Am I the only person that is still surprised by BBC Scotland website not having one single peep about the fact that every local authority and housing association block of high flats in Scotland has been found (as one would expect) to have non-combustible cladding.
Far less about the regulatory failure, starting with the Blair Government, down south.
The Financial Times incidentally has a decent article, by Judith Evans and Robert Wright, that actually manages to mention us, and fairly accurately dissects the regulatory mess in England.
geeo @ 17:08,
Well, there you go. Just one early example of what I was sayin’.
Tory Brexit is still pending, though the “phoney war” period will soon be over. US banks also now doing hardening testing for what they can see coming.
This is peak Tory in Scotland, I do believe.
There will only be another GE if the Cons agree and as much of a disaster as May is, they won’t vote against their own party if they think Corbyn will win.
During 1st indy ref we were always very polite to the no voters.
This time I wont be.
I’ll be calling them out for what they are – wee sleekit courin’ timorous beasties.
McColm was on twitter the other day saying he hated indyref1 cos it made him feel stressed and upset – I paraphrase a bit.
He needs to man up
e
yesindyref2 says:
29 June, 2017 at 5:12 pm
@Heed
Good stuff.
Our bonnie wee flag.
Fuck em all, tories, red and blue:D
@bjsalba
http://evolvepolitics.com/a-tantrum-of-tories-ok-with-poverty-but-find-glastonbury-fans-disgraceful/
@John says: 29 June, 2017 at 3:28 pm
“I think the SNP need to take a very hard look at their PR . How is it the Unionists seem to be on the case of anything the SNP does that they do not like , (which is most of the time ), within seconds.
Sheesh! They are out in strength again today I see, but just in case it is an actual Indy supporter this time, I’ll just explain it again for him and the hard of thinking. The rest of you just scroll on past as you have all heard it before and know the truth.
The SNP notice just as quickly as the Yoon Loons, John. In fact most of us can predict exactly what is about to come our way from the Westminster Establishment before they have had the chance to think about it.
Thing is that no matter how hard the elected to office SNP Councillors, MSPs, MPs and MEPs work at it the Westminster state Broadcaster, the Westminster backing wealthy media barons and the state funded security services, (including the 77th Brigade of The Soldiers of the Queen of England). Will be put on the case immediately.
Meanwhile the same bunch of government funded, (a.k.a. taxpayer funded), paid for numpties will be studiously ignoring anything and everything that the SNP tries to propagate and guys like you will be deliberately casting doubts about the SNP while claiming to be Indy supporters.
The most recent example is the BBC fake-news headlines, “Sturgeon U-Turn on Referendum”. There was no U-Turn and it wasn’t Nicola that deferred the calling of the referendum it was the Mayhem realisation that the UKExit was not going to be the UK laying down the conditions and the EU agreeing to the idiots demands. Thus the revelation of when the UK’s exit will be clear has been put back.
The SNP/Sturgeon claim was always that there will be a referendum when the terms of UKexit becomes clear.
Now we have the latest set of lies. “The Scottish Economy in, ‘Precarious’ position’. Of course the Scottish economy is in a precarious position because it is tied to the United Kingdom’s economy and that UK economy is currently in debt to the tune of £1.8 TRILLION.
Yet every single penny of Scottish raised revenues goes directly into the UK Treasury and we only get back from Westminster what little Westminster thinks they can get away with returning as the Scottish Block Grant.
The truth is that the Scottish average annual Per Capita GDP is more often than not above that of any other country in the UK and thus above the UK average annual per capita GDP.
That means each Scot on average contributes more revenue to the United Kingdom Treasury than any other UK country. We are thus, by the UK’s own figures, subsidising the rest of the UK.
Scotland’s economy is governed entirely by what Westminster does with the UK economy and it is thus on Westminster’s watch that Scotland’s economy is consistently poor. Furthermore Scotland will continue to remain poorer than England as long as we are tied to Westminster and are paying a higher Per Capita GDP than everyone else.
Westminster, via the State MSM and Broadcasters, lie to us every day. They claim we are ALL in, “Austerity Measures together”, which is plainly total lies. The statistics show the top rate taxpayers in the UK, who pay the least percentage of tax, have more than doubled their personal wealth.
You are not under any kind of austerity if you can more than double your personal wealth and you most certainly are under Austerity Measures when the poor, the jobless, the sick, the disabled and the old are dying from the direct results of the Westminster austerity measures.
So notice, John, the great increase, and ever increasing, numbers of commenters on Wings all claiming the SNP are ineffective at Westminster and claiming the commenter is an Indy Supporter.
How effective the SNP are bears no resemblance whatsoever to the news where they are and the news where we are. are.
@John
“I think the SNP need to take a very hard look at their PR . How is it the Unionists seem to be on the case of anything the SNP does that they do not like , (which is most of the time ), within seconds . They proceed to have it reported far and wide in ALL MSM for every Tom , Dick and Harry to see and hear .”
That is the establishment machine at work, pure and simple.
My suggestion, which I have made ad infinitum, is that the Scottish Government sets up a week day lunchtime TV phone/text in programme on Holyrood TV called ‘Ask The Government’.(or similar name).
The programme would feature a host to keep nutters and disrupters at bay and to make sure the live questions are from reasonable, but otherwise ordinary, members of the public on any political issue of the day.
There would be a Government spokesperson there to answer the questions they feel competent to answer. Hopefully, most. Unanswered questions would be retained and answers read out at the start of the next programme by the host.
Massive step forward in transparent Government and a vehicle to correct any errors or misconceptions the SMSM may be guilty of on an almost immediate basis.
Being on the spot like that is not easy and mistakes of memory and understanding will be made, but given the live context of it, provided corrections are forthcoming, I am sure the audience will make allowances.
The MSM will hate this but I cannot see any grounds on which they could object.
Because the spokesperson has volunteered to give up their lunch break, they cannot even be accused of neglecting their parliamentary duties.
The programme would also be recorded for later streaming throughout the day.
I think such a programme would quickly become a go to resource for those interested in politics especially in politically interesting times, like an election or referendum.
For balance, there should also be an equivalent ‘Ask The Opposition’ programme available.
@geeo
The author is, I think, an Indy sympathiser though. I forget!
Valerie, at 349pm
The DUP, now they are in such a poweerful position in London, do NOT want Stormont to resume, despite their pretence to the contrary. This way, the DUP will effectively run N.Ireland via London, and all the other parties including Sinn Fein will be shut out. The DUP don’t need Stormont anymore. Indeed it would just obstruct them.
This was what the Tories wanted too, since it will make brexit much easier to impose on N.Ireland – something the DUP are very happy to support.
These were the things which I believe took most time for the agreement between the tories and DUP, NOT the blood money.
It is a terribly thing this current tory government have done. They are, I do fear, opening a proverbial can of worms. Even the former Tory PM, John Major warned against this.
History in just a few years will I think look back on this and effectively shake its head in disbelief.
@geeo
Thanks for the link, that was worth a read. WTF has happened? Imagine getting reports like that everyday in our MSM.
I know, I know it isn’t going to happen but see how powerful it is, to be honest I was shocked at how powerful it was. Your archive link didn’t include the comments and is maybe just as well.
Got to take care of the blood pressure LOL
A snotter of tories 🙂
Graeme
@Heed “Our bonnie wee flag.”
Ah yes, indeed. I’d guess 90% or even way more of all of the People of Scotland feel that way.
gungho gallagher insults all of us 90%. Just the strident unionist activists will be delighted, which makes them the odd ones out, not us. He’s another drip.
@Chick McGregor
‘Ask The Government’ is a fantastic idea and one I believe as you do that can’t be stopped. Get your idea onto the new website now.
You’ll be doing all of us a favour.
http://www.mobilise.scot
Regarding N.Ayrshire labourtory council and its worship of the butchers apron. I have to say, I’ve been noticing over maybe the last six months, saltires just disappearing from public buildings, where union jacks are still in place. It might just be coincidence, but maybe it isn’t. Who knows.
Either way, it now seems pretty clear, with this union jack nonsense (which is straight out of the N.Ireland bigot handbook, courtesy of the DUP) that both Labour and Tories in Scotland have effectively been taken over by the orange lodge bigots. This is why Tory and labour councillors are so cosy working together. Pretty obvious really – but apparently not to Kezia. Or Corbyn for that matter.
Thepnr,
Regarding ‘ask the Government’. This is something, for all his faults, that Putin regularly does, with people calling in from all over russia. The sessions last several hours. Of course the usual Putin caveats apply, but I think ask the Government in Scotland is a very good idea. More useful than FMQ’s.
@Thepnr
I registered within minutes of the launch and that was my introductory suggestion.
Will be off line for several hours possibly a couple of days, my next post might be from Oz Minor.
This should be one of the first for the name and shame stories to be spread far and wide.
After all the recent events this scum just carry on regardless. They have no soul,they have no heart. A disgrace to humanity.
http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mps-cheer-blocking-labour-amendment-give-fair-pay-heroic-emergency-services/
Wonder if that nurse on QT is still blamming NS ? I think maybe erm no
@Petra
“One year and nine months is not years”. True enough, but you can bet it will be years by the time the UK Govt stops dragging its feet about giving a Section 30 for permission for a legally binding referendum.
Sovereignty can be explained by: Scotland’s Parliament having the final say on matters affecting Scotland.
You may have a point about the average voter being unable to understand all the issues and being fed lots of false information by the BBC and newspapers in particular. Sources of information that many older voters rely on.
I would say that same basic problem affects indyrefs just as much. So, that’s part of the reason why Project Fear won.
I suggest you tell Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP about this problem. They are the ones that favour referendums.
I would rather Scotland gains independence by UDI following a democratically run Scottish General election where pro-independence MSPs gain a majority of seats by a pro-independence manifesto and thus have the democratic mandate to declare UDI.
But mention UDI on here and the devout believers in the hallowed independence referendum take a hairy fit, as it suggests something other than their “infallible” plan to deliver independence.
Point out that the first referendum plan FAILED and the economic situation in Scotland is now WORSE and it is predicted to get much worse and all you get is insults in response. Not one logical, sensible answer in response about how to win an indyref2 in that situation.
I think the general consensus is that YES lost because the SNP failed to put a credible economic case for independence. Since 2014, it still has failed to do that.
So for many No voters it’s a case of: better the devil you know than the devil you don’t.
The UK Govt has walked all over Scottish democracy ever since. More than ever. The Smith Commission was a walkover for the Unionists.
Scotland would have been better having Sooty and Sweep negotiating for Scottish interests for all the SNP negotiating team achieved. Harsh words, but sadly true.
Hopefully, the SNP have learned from those failures. However, there is no evidence to suggest they have ( or haven’t).
What’s the answer for many Wingers to the difficulties ahead? Hold another indyref and by magic these NO voters will for some unexplained reason vote YES next time. These “stupid, cowardly, Yoons”( not my words, but the words of some of the keyboard patriots on here). These “traytor scum, slaves to Westminster” will suddenly back independence.
Why would they? The only answer some of the more illogical Wingers can come up with is insults and an illogical belief that a referendum has magical powers that turns No voters into YES voters.
I WANT INDEPENDENCE FOR SCOTLAND.
The problem is: I’ve yet to read how you are going to get enough people to switch their vote from NO to YES while convincing enough of those who voted YES last time to vote YES again.
Project Fear is stronger than ever. There is no YES campaign (yet).
Independence is not a lost cause. I believe it is winnable, but we need more than an indyref.
We need credible and convincing, persuading economic arguments(and political arguments) as to why we should go through the upheaval and disruption – and RISK – of creating a new, much smaller political state. We need a stronger case than last time. A better presented case than last time.
We need a majority in favour of independence BEFORE any indyref campaign begins.
So, how do we achieve that? Please do tell me.
Stu, does a great job in exposing the lies, letdwons, failures and corruption of the Unionist politicians and pro-Unionist media. That’s an important part of undermining the Unionist’s cause. Exposing their propaganda as just that, propaganda mince.
But by itself, it’s not enough. Not only do we need to discredit the false arguments in favour of the Union.
We need CONVINCING PROOF, independence is the best economic choice for voters at the time when voters are putting their x on the voting paper.
Great quote by the way from Sturgeon in her twitter thing:
“Q. ‘How did you stand up for Scotland, Sec of State?’ A. ‘I made sure that when the Tories sold Scotland out, we did it transparently’.
@Chick McGregor
Have a great time down under, don’t worry we won’t miss you 🙂
Why stop at ‘Ask The Government’?
How about adding:-
Ask The Colonel.
Ask The Dug.
sSk The Willie.
Today we have the spectacle in WM of the DUP tail wagging the English dog, and strangely not a word said anywhere agin it. Instead the Tories in that woeful place cheer and bray away, the Dozy Davidson Dozen all the while cravenly sitting on their hands and spinelessly voting their masters’ bidding.
@colin alexander: “you can bet it will be years by the time the UK Govt stops dragging its feet about giving a Section 30 for permission for a legally binding referendum.”
In fairness there’s a good few / many Indy supporters think the same thing, but it ignores that Sturgeon was going to make an announcement in Holyrood about this “further steps”, which got cancelled because of the Election, and has now been “reset” – an incredibly clever use of words by her.
I’m completely certain myself that when it is asked for, it most certainly will NOT drag on at all. But I’m not going to explain myself. Mum’s the word 🙂
trying again, sorry if this appears more than once!
STV’s number one news story. According to the Fraser of Allander Institute Scotland is heading for recession which their figures should prove when released next week. All down to, in the main, Scots not spending and our dire oil situation.
Nicola get us out of this, ASAP, PLEASE.
A passing thought.
The BBC, the rest of the media, the unionist parties, and uncle tom cobblers and all, rushed to throw the slop bucket all over the SNP during the General Election campaign.
The problem with throwing out the contents of the slop bucket is it’s always a good idea first to test the wind direction.
Just watched FMQ’s just switched off again.
Ruth Davidson you couldn’t give her a red neck with a blow torch.
The presiding officer needs a word, apparently Ruth can demand silence to be heard but the FM has to shout over the desk slappers to make her point.
I truly look forward to an iScotland when all the parties will be working FOR their country instead of forelock tucking to WM. Only then will Scotland truly flourish.
@colin Alexander
What is this Colin? A change in shifts from COLIN ALEXANDER to colin Alexander?
Your a bam colin as you post from just two days ago shows.
No indyref2 says Nicola Sturgeon.
Wise decision.
Now’s the time to put my plan into action.
Put YOUR plan into action? LOL Guess you believe that your smarter than the FM and the entire Scottish Government and their advisers.
I’ve read most of your posts on Wings, same old tripe over and over. You whinge like hell when someone pulls you up, you seek sympathy and are nothing but a big crybaby.
Your looking for economic arguments then watch this from economist Richard Murphy and Phantom Power films. I doubt you will find a better argument anywhere else/
https://wingsoverscotland.com/a-fundamental-difference-in-approach/
We need a majority in favour of independence BEFORE any indyref campaign begins.
No we bloody well don’t. We can start the campaign right now, this very minute. We only need a majority in favour of Independence when the campaign is over.
colin or COLIN take a break, give it a rest. Your losing out here.
O/T… Misreporting Scotland
Headline report: ‘Scotland is edging ever closer to recession.’
Despite the headline…the report was mainly POSITIVE..stating that the awaited latest GDP figures are expected to show a ‘modest’ amount of growth but that the figures are expected to improve later in the year.So why run with the ‘Doom & Gloom’ headline then? Talk about ‘glass half empty’ .Pathetic state
propaganda unit.I truly loathe them.
C. 🙂
If Scotland is teetering on recession, then the headline should be.” Scotlands economy flatlining under the Union”.
@yesindyref2.
Absolutely with you on the Section 30 order.
When it is FORMALLY requested (and remember, it has not actually been asked for yet) it WILL be granted.
We could tell colin, but he would not understand why….
So officially if we want single market we are gonny have to be independent to get it.
Lets start creating the vision and smiles the naysayers. No use spending vast amounts of energy trying to persuade people who are ideologically attached to the uk.
If we are still part of the uk by the next scottish elections, and the only party willing to facilitate a referendum are the snp, they will be re-elected.
@ Chick McGregor.
Ask the government!!
A great idea, inspirational infact…. let’s get it out there.
So looking forward to the ask the opposition segment too.
colin or COLIN take a break, give it a rest. Your losing out here.
Troll rookie, get them farting about with some pointless diversion, is the first step in the trolling ladder to class A Troll.
If you say Rock 3 times he pops out, like beetlejuice.
Proudscotbuts take note, October 1st the catalonians will show you what having a backbone means,when they vote for independence from Madrid.
I see that DUP/Westminster has “reset” the deadline for Stormont talks. Where our FM leads lesser mortals follow. Britnats’ Empire 2.0 gets funnier by the day.
Petra says:
29 June, 2017 at 6:21 pm
“STV’s number one news story. According to the Fraser of Allander Institute Scotland is heading for recession which their figures should prove when released next week. All down to, in the main, Scots not spending and our dire oil situation….”
Did they by any chance play Chopin’s Funeral March in the background?
To think we should be worrying about recession when we are being dragged towards Brexit is like strolling the deck of the Titanic and worrying about wearing a scarf because there’s a bit of a nip in the air.
Thepnr @ 6.43
Was it Yogi or Boo Boo that claimed to be “smarter than the average bear”?
I Always think which one are you when I see those Union Bear people.
You would be a amazed at the amount of times there’s an uncanny resemblance.
Have never been reminded of the Care Bears though..funny that!
re; Breeks@5.28
Excellently put. These yoons are there to distract, lie and blame the SNP at every opportunity for this sick, rotten to the core, disgusting so called union. Looks like the new tactic is to faux SNP support, and even blame them for er, not having control re the media message, when we all know that the UKOK media in tandem with the UKgov/establishment and their dodgy pals are setting the agenda.
They are orchestrating all messages and stories (and they are stories) which are piped into living rooms, and across the dirty, nasty right wing rags’ front pages every day, 24/7. It is a freaking scourge on our democracy. If they could they would fase flag violence as well and still might stoop that low.
You just have to look at what’s happening in countries like Venezuela to see how far the right wing will take things to oust a left wing democratically elected government. Especially if that country has some much sought after natural resources that could make the country a social and economic success. Oh no, not having that. The greedy, selfish, immoral gits will do anything to undermine democracy if they want something
Scotland ‘ heading for recession’ eh. Oh how the yoons will love that. Surely then, we are not ‘better together’. What’s england heading for, oh yeh, with Scotland’s oil, a booming economy, N.I too. Brexit, who will really feel the effects, I think we all know.
LOL 😎
Then again, Ruth and her unplucky 13 could start a band, call themselves Chubby Chancer and the coalition of chaos and have a perfect hit with Anarchy in the UK 🙂
Well the DUP ten stood up for NI and got a £1 billion branch from the Westminster magic money tree.
What did Scotland’s thirteen Tories do, did they withhold their thirteen votes. Hoping to gain some leverage for Scotland, did they hell, they sat back and kept schtum. The thirteen, aren’t interested in helping Scots, just Davidson and the Tory government.
O/T but interesting.
https://reprieve.bsd.net/page/s/third-direction
It seems Tory voters in Scotland have voted more money for Northern Ireland and are happy to foot 10% of the bill. I suppose there are some who think that’s a result.
The automatic responses to the nonsense about Scotland’s “recessions”are several.
“So after 300 years of a union we are a economic basket case? And we should just continue more of the same?”
“So UK with a debt of £1.800,000,000,000 UK is hanging onto Scotland to send us money. Are you f***ing stupid?
“OK. Just let us free. We’ll look after the oil ourselves”
“The Scottish economy being hugely damaged by being trapped in a bust and debt ridden UK economy. We need out and get control of our own resources”
“Another Union dividend,is it?”
and so on. We shouldn’t even contemplate trying to pull out facts and figures. We don’t have the books
13 eh? Unlucky for some. Hell mend the arseholes who voted for these bawbags.
@Dave McEwan Hill
I didn’t even bother commenting on it. That growth commission must be due to report some time, so as far as I’m concerned I’m waiting to see what it has to offer.
Mike d.
And I think we should try and get some Saltires out there showing support. There is never a lack of Catalonian flags at our events.
So now we know, following the behaviour of Labour tonight, that their stance on brexit is EXACTLY the same as the tories. They could have supported the idea of the single market, but didn’t. What an utter bunch of wastrels they are.
O/T
Ok, pop quiz time.
1. Which ‘Scottish’ politician features on the front cover of the orange lodge of Scotland newspaper ‘The orange torch’?
Hint: It isn’t Nicola Sturgeon.
It’s a toughie.
With the neanderthal, drunken, orange bigots marching in Glasgow this weekend, Glasgow will be a no-go zone for NORMAL decent Scots.
@Robert Louis
Without googling the answer I’ll go for Colonel Gadaftie, if not them Murdo Fraser.
mike d,
“Yes the proudscot loyal and english immigrants who voted for this lot, couldn’t give a f**k about Scotland or its interests.”
And they will always have a vote in any referendum on Scotland’s independence from England.
Otherwise the “Quinoa eating liberals” posting here would riot.
Arthetty
Are you possibly trying to include a link with your post?
I had this some months ago where i posted about 3 times with ‘No Show’ before I realised that my youtube link included the ‘http bi and the Rev doesn’t like that!
Saw the “Quinoa eating liberals” at the Apollo in 83. They were shite then and never heard much from them since.
Thepnr,
“I still haven’t figured out what a Scottish Tory voter is made of never mind a Scottish Tory MP. I’m totally at a loss here.”
“So just who are the type of people in Scotland that would vote for more of this disgrace? I’ve no idea but they aught to take a good long look in the mirror.”
Thepnr (10th May 2015 – The power of the press),
“Embrace the NO voters, even the Tory ones if you hope to reach your ultimate goal.”
Rock,
“Target and embrace the ones who can be persuaded.
That is why the Radical Independence Campaign was so successful and the Yes campaign in the SNP “heartlands” a disaster.
Do you seriously believe that spending limited resources on persuading Tories in Scotland to vote for independence is a good idea?”
Having been “embracing” Tory No voters for the last two years, surely you should know what they are made of by now?
I get it that you hate the tories, no news there, I don’t like them much either. However, it is a bit ridiculous to expect them to vote against the queen’s speech at such a perilous time for the new government. I can’t think of a time when SNP have ever voted against the whip, with the exception of the two who resigned re NATO and Thompson and McGarry when trying to hang onto their Westminster seats.
The SNP 56 didn’t achieve anything of note over the last 2 years, I am more interested what happens over the course of this parliament, however long that lasts.
Paula Rose,
“Ah but Thepnr none of those policies were on the election literature it was all no second referendum.”
Effectively, 63% voted for “no second referendum” while 37% voted for one.
Admit it or not, the independence cause has suffered a major setback.
PS. Congratulations on being elected an SNP councillor.
The SNP 56 didn’t achieve anything of note over the last 2 years, I am more interested what happens over the course of this parliament, however long that lasts.”
Didnt the SNP just you know, govern, govern Scotland with the power that Holyrood does have.
We all know that the BBC Scotland led tory yoon machines says the SNP have got to go NOW, but could you at least be a bit more specific, perlease!
And yes, we know, Scots kids are iletrate, it must be true, Jackie Bird says so.
@Gfaetheblock
And what did that pathetic lot of 41 Labour MP’s achieve in Scotland prior to 2015?
Here it is again. Here they all are arriving in Glasgow and getting the pish ripped right out them hahaha I play this just to wind up you and Rock up and make the rest of us smile 🙂 🙂 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&t=60s
Robert Louis,
“This was what the Tories wanted too, since it will make brexit much easier to impose on N.Ireland – something the DUP are very happy to support.”
Rock (9th June – Some things we know),
“The DUP are more right wing than the Tories and pro-Brexit.
In them Saint Theresa has found the perfect partners.”
geeo,
“Absolutely with you on the Section 30 order.
When it is FORMALLY requested (and remember, it has not actually been asked for yet) it WILL be granted.”
I thought it had already been formally requested.
Which prompted Saint Theresa to call a snap election to avoid giving a response.
big question is what do the Scottish Tory MPs do for Scotland? well firstly including ruth the mooth they all hate Scotland and they do for Scotland what an ashtray does for a motorbike – useless and pointless
From the BBC today, it seems that the Scottish economy is on the brink of recession and it has nothing to with Brexit or the down turn in one of our major revenue streams, the North Sea Oil Industry???
Of course no mention that Brexit is destabilising the European and World economies let alone Scotland’s.
No mention that Westminster has retained every fiscal lever that could boost the Scottish economy, but yet any economic problems must be SNP’s.
Could the fact that some of Scotland’s share of the UK economy must now go to the corrupt £Billions that the Tories are handing the DUP.
If our economy is on the brink, why hasn’t extra monies going to the DUP, when they already get more money per head than Scotland?
Why has the corruption of the DUP giving £500,000,000
to their supporters in subsidies for burning bio fuel pellets in empty barns?
When the Sinn Fein MPs sit down to resolve their differences with the DUP, can anyone expect the Tories to be impartial when their government totally depends on the DUP?
Don’t you just love the Tories putting forward the idea of the SNP increasing the age related support to dementia sufferers while continuing cuts are applied to our budget by their Westminster Masters.
We were also advised to negate the Tory Bedroom Tax, which mainly affected the disabled, and of course they say that the SNP should also pay for the Tory R*pe Clause.
Strange that they think every cut to Scottish budget means that we have more money to spend, and yet although we should pick up the tab for these brutal tory cuts, they also say spend more and live within your means???
Let’s not forget Mundell trying to screw Scotland out of £7 Billion.
Let’s not forget that every part of the Tory Vow to Scotland was broken, if not smashed, and never forget that that Scottish Tories had the power to demand the a share of the DUP money, but what the hell do they care about Scotland, when there might be something in it for themselves.
heedtracker,
“The SNP 56 didn’t achieve anything of note over the last 2 years, I am more interested what happens over the course of this parliament, however long that lasts.”
Didnt the SNP just you know, govern, govern Scotland with the power that Holyrood does have.”
Don’t you know that it is MSPs that govern Scotland, not MPs?
The SNP MPs had no chance of ever achieving anything at Westminster.
The only thing they could and should have done would have been to return home when the “vow” was not delivered, and cause a constitutional crisis.
Rock (29th May 2015 – A dereliction of duty),
“Our 56 MPs are outnumbered 11 to 1 at Westminster.
The Scottish parliament has very limited powers and it seems it won’t even be able to hold an independence referendum in the future.
We can no longer continue playing a game with rules that guarantee that we can never win.
Who is happy to wait for a generation?”
Thepnr,
Devolution, minimum wage, management of the global financial crisis etc.
Heedtracker
The MSPs do, not the MPs, who seemed focused on sitting in certain seats and clapping
Thepnr, Agree 100%, but surely ” now IS the time” for either SNP or YES to put together a flyer of all the good , and, all the bad the tories have done or, intend to do, and get it to all,and keep it in the news as much as possible, we need to keep it in the minds of people what the tories are all about.
“Quinoa eating liberals”
That’s a bit of a shame for the liberals, can’t this Quinoa get its food from elsewhere? It should have charged for its appearance on the cover of that orange porch thing.
Quick thought @yesindyref2 says at 4:59 pm
“That was before the upsurge in bloggers, twitter, facebook, and even MSM forums. The Thralled Thirteen [1] can run, but they can’t hide.”
The rise of bloggers, twitter, facebook (WoS et al) is the reason that BBC Scotland give it a “Colonel Gadaftie or Fluffy couldn’t make it”.
If they (Gadaftie or Fluffy) don’t make a recorded statement then it can’t be used to point out their hypocrisy or lies online to a larger audience/proportion of the electorate.
A wee update on the votes/abstentions of the 13 and the 7 BLiS plus Wee Wullies ‘winners’ as a “look at what you voted for, worked out well didn’t it?”
No place to hide for these bu99ers.
Oh dear, are you feeling depressed yet? That’s the objective of the trolls. Ignore them and keep posting right over their heads.
Grind you down hahaha by the likes of Rock? That’s a fantasy of theirs. By the way Rock you were late clocking on tonight 20:20 is your starting time yet you never clocked on until 20:34.
Your wages have been docked and your quartered.
Full circle. If I may remind readers of:
THIS.
Chris Cairns had it. It still speaks to us. It says “Here lies danger”. They are lining up shouting “You have all the taxes now, So fix your ecomony.”
The SNP message needs to be very smart to be snuck out just to be heard, and to provide the explanation that one or two month at the controls will not turn the economy.
Re the Irvine story over the replacement of the saltire with the butchers apron. The Tory and labour Councillors from Largs should be told that the Viking festival in Largs should only have the Saltire flag flown.
Maybe we should turn up for its parade with a sea of saltires led by the First Ministet?
Some people, prefer “Who Wants To Live Forever”. Personally I prefer Radio Gaga, started at about 20:20. Kind of reminds me of May’s vision for Empire 2.
@Thepnr –
🙂
The bold Rock, god love ‘im and his wee personalised files…
He’s the WOS equivalent of yon Japanese knotweed.
Rock
I don’t read Indy papers.
There was no referendum on Indy.There was a general election for the uk to give May more seats. Now she has the UU courtesy of a few £billion from the magic tree and supported by the Tory 13. Ulster first says the britscot Tories.
Boy didn’t the Tories surrender. More from the brexiters to come.
@Phil
This is where YES has to shout from the roof tops – “one country one currency”
Anything else is giving power away.
YES must make clear the limitations of the Scottish parliament.
The MSPs do, not the MPs, who seemed focused on sitting in certain seats and clapping
Its called Westminster opposition innit.
What Westminster oppositions do do, I dont really know, try to look like they’re electable and then become government.
Ultimately we have to ask what’s the point in Scots voting in Westminster GE’s at all.
Last snap GE was a big success, for carefully focused and tory targeting attacks, with lots of tory dosh piled in to specific constituencies.
Most prominent SNP MP’s for last 2 years? Angus Robertson, Alex Salmond, Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, gone.
How good were they? well clearly you can argue either way how good they were, but the fact that they are gone, says a great deal more.
Tories, red and blue are on the hunt now.
BBC Scotland shysters do the long slog SNP bad dirty work, tory big bucks precious blitz, and the SNP they hate most, or the best ones, are history.
There are several other SNP MP’s that just made it this time, Mhairi Black for one but massed beeb gimp monstering will do for her, just as they did for Tasmina.
All they have to do is just not report any thing about them, then monster them.
My MP was a really sharp young guy Callum MacCaig, Beeb gimpery, neo fascist Voice of the North Press and Journal simply ghosted him. Now his replacement is a tory arsehole.
2015 GE
Party Candidate Votes
SNP Callum McCaig 20,221
Labour Anne Begg 12,991
Conservative Ross Thomson 11,087
Liberal Democrat Denis Rixon 2,252
2017 GE
Party Candidate
Conservative Ross Thomson 18,746
SNP Callum McCaig 13,994 31.5
Labour Callum O’Dwyer 9,143
Its a relentless BBC Scotland led assault on Scottish democracy now.
Its even btl WoS. A creep like Rock slams into the SNP, anyone who he thinks he can monster, ever read anything even remotely positive or interesting about the SNP commented by gits like Rock? ofcourse not. It’s all lensed and targeted at one thing, getting the SNP out.
And that really will be the end of Scotland, probably for good.
@Gfaetheblock
management of the global financial crisis
Are you trying to tell me that Labour were successful in managing the financial crisis? Maybe not, I hope not else you show yourself as a deluded fool.
Ah great stuff, rummaging througth the archives I found some early footage of the Thralled Thirteen. Just still shots, but they’re hardly animated anyway, are they?
So the big question is – which one represents which Scottish constituency?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGor7ZyCawI
So in precis Gfaetheblock,
“In war time, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies.”
Change war truth for the tories, red and blue, in Scotland today.
Thepnr
Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. They stopped the complete collapse of the uk economy, saved countless Scottish financial services jobs and protected one of the key industries of well paid jobs in Scotland.
You may have different analysis, I would be happy to hear it and I may disagree, but I am not going to start insulting folk.
With Ruth Davidson’s MP’s (that’s how they canvassed) now holding the WM balance of power I wait with baited breath for BBC Scotland or STV to ask her what they intend to do about the reserved economic powers that drive the Scottish economy. What changes in policy at WM are they proposing to improve Scotland’s growth prospects.
Now they have voted to improve the economic prospects of NI, I would presume they already have a plan for Scotland. Or maybe not.
But I suspect it will be the usual Scottish media focusing purely on the SG and not even mentioning the limited economic powers that are devolved.
In a few months we might need the expenses spreadsheet the Rev highlighted a while back revised.
totally off topic – but i hope you all enjoy this wee spoof song!!
https://eurofree3.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/dup-con-deal/
Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. They stopped the complete collapse of the uk economy, saved countless Scottish financial services jobs and protected one of the key industries of well paid jobs in Scotland.
You may have different analysis, I would be happy to hear it and I may disagree, but I am not going to start insulting folk.
“They” were in charge of the UK economy, what “they” then had to save, by borrowing several hundred billion quid, throw at the same City rich, that they were supposed to be governing, who just carried on a massive bonuses as ever.
Lord Darling got rewarded with his seat on Morgan Stanley board and his lordship, how many actual working people have paid the price though, who cares, they can fackin vote Labour again because Labour is changing so much?
Look at the scumbag,
http://www.thenational.scot/comment/14858963.Kevin_McKenna__Blair_betrayed_Labour_s_principles_and_is_reaping_the_rewards/
National Front Page
http://www.facebook.com/thenationalnewspaperscotland/posts/1772183049738395
@Gfaetheblock
Well in my opinion you are totally wrong, they should have let the banks fail. Those that caused the crisis in the first place.
How much difference do you think that would have made to the ordinary punter? Absolutely none in my view. The bastard banks gambled with all our money, none of it is theirs. It is our savings our life insurance and our pensions that they pissed against the wall.
Then a rotten government gave them more money because they fucked up. Despicable and we’re all still paying for it now. It’s called austerity and you are living with that right now.
Today we had a vote in parliament to lift the Cap on public service pay. It was defeated as the Tories and DUP are in power, you think that this is fair?
Bail out the bankers, screw the public service workers to pay for that bailout. Your a knob if that’s what you believe in.
They stopped the complete collapse of the uk economy, saved countless Scottish financial services jobs and protected one of the key industries of well paid jobs in Scotland.”
K MacKenna, not of the tory Graun shit show, this time.
“I’m told that Morgan Stanley is a far better run financial services unit these days; nonetheless they will be comforted that they have acquired the services of a man who threw billions at our own financially incontinent banking institutions around the same time as Morgan Stanley was benefitting from the largesse of USA tax-payers. All things considered, this seems like a very good fit.
It was a good week too for Gordon Brown, Blair’s Iron Chancellor and his immediate successor as Prime Minister. Brown was appointed to the board of Pimco, the world’s largest bond manager.”
Goggsie Broon, I saved the world, having ruined so much of it, I’m went off the scales, then I bullshitted the democracy out of Scotland 2014.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTz47bRozWw
I really need to get a tv licence again:D
@Gfaetheblock
Would all have been very laudable except you missed out they had been in control of regulation for 10 years and were caught with their trousers down when the shit hit the fan.
Gordon saved the world, funny then, still is.
Collective noun ?
I’m going with; ” a consequence of tories “
Aweright ronnie anderson ~
That’s quite a cutting headline on ra National.
Onwards unto ra truth.
Cheers bro.
X.
Thepnr
You have just assume a load of other things that I don’t believe in, then called me a knob. Calm down. It was a global crisis, obsentively based around US sun prime mortgages, that involved many global banks. The way Britain dealt with its bank has generally been well regarded internationally.
The vast majority of finically services staff are in average wage range jobs, on the phones, dealing with customers, supporting IT. I haven’t modelled the contagion in the economy of these banks had failed, but there would have been mass unemployment, and negative knock impact to many industries. This would have massively reduced the over tax take In the uk the last decade, causing austerity to a massive extent, the finial crisis was an was a terrible situation, any way of resolving would have had massive negative consequences but to blame one government in one country for a global situation is somewhat naive.
I think not increasing public sector workers pay, esp nhs and lower paid is a disgrace when it has been knocked back in both Westminster and holyrood, although I think we need to look at a degree of reform in this sector to allow more variation for regional cost of living and performance related pay.
Anybuddy watching that QT thingmy ra nite?
Any good or baaaaad…
Ahm hoose-sittin’ ra night, so gonna watch it later.
For research purposes only.
For Scotland.
X.
Regards labour and the city of London. Worth a read of nick shaxon’s book treasure islands which tells you exactly how deep labour were in with the city of London (and in many cases still are btw).
Sarah smith’s dad who everyone remembers fondly embarked on the ‘prawn cocktail’ offensive to woo the bankers to the newly reformed Labour Party. Not so innocent.
To be fair John Macdonnell was wholly opposed to Balir’s capitulation to the square mile and very much vocally opposed it at the time, but to applaud new labour after the financial crisis is a bit like thanking a driver doing 100mph in a 40 for returning to the scene of the accident.
The banks couldn’t be allowed to fail, simply because It would have brought the entire payments system down. I remember reading a chilling account that America was about 24hrs away from systemic collapse. No more using cards to get fuel – it would be government money only I.e cash.
Think about the number of fire arms in that country.
The scary thing is that nothing has changed. Even Martin Wolfe of the FT has described banks as part public entities simply because they HAVE to be guaranteed by government due to their strangle hold on society. THIS Is one huge argument in my opinion for independence – a mittlestand banking system like Germany.
McKenna obviously doesn’t understand how the macro economic levers work. In a recession, automatic stabilisers kick in – when the private sector becomes depressed, the govt payments automatically kick in by design. Brown didn’t have to do anything except let the system balance the economy by running large govt deficits. You take these safeguards away you get Greece.
What should have been done is that debtors should have received a sum of money in order to deleverage and bring the levels of private debt (due to bank inflated house prices) down to sustainable levels. Less debt would mean more disposable income and a quickly functioning economy.
Of course since then, the government has used its money creation powers to pump up the stock exchange rewarding those with the biggest portfolios. (QE)
The above should be a major part of the reason folk vote YES.
Liam Fox crying crocodile tears over Grenfel towers..apparently he was present at the burning tenement where 8 died in an arson attack during the Glasgow Ice cream wars….can anybody confirm his?
The way Britain dealt with its bank has generally been well regarded internationally.
The vast majority of finically services staff are in average wage range jobs, on the phones, dealing with customers, supporting IT.
So it was them that destroyed the world, economically then?
You lot had quite a time in your say 14 years of Westminster power.
Lets leave aside the great PFI black holes of money Crash Gordo and assorted Lab nutters built, you lot happily helped destroy the middle east, charging off to war with neo fascist USA George Bush’s mob. It looks like endless war too, with who knows how many dead, a million some say, destroyed countries like Iraq, rolling civil wars across the middle east, endless terror threat here in this fucking awful union. Its hard to know where it’s all going really.
With Wall Street, the City is the global finance industry and Labour clearly hadnt the faintest idea what they were being run, how far and how bad it had been run, until one of the top City spivs chapped on Lord Darling’s backdoor, he says.
Its likely that a psycho like Brown did know exactly how awful the City was and yet did nothing at all, until it all crashed. It hard to know which is worse.
And ofcourse none of these fantastic City frauds even saw the inside of a courtroom.
To cap all that, Brown and Darling then destroyed Scottish independence, not with argument, but with complete and utter The Vow lies, the great Labour historic fraud on Scotland and good old fashioned terror.
@Gfaetheblock: “I think not increasing public sector workers pay, esp nhs and lower paid is a disgrace when it has been knocked back in both Westminster and holyrood”
The budget this year was already set when the SNP knocked back the Labour motion in Holyrood. And it’s not a “not increasing”, it’s a 1% cap – same as the rUK.
*** BUT *** what the MSM won’t tell you is that the SNP are taking that 1% cap off for 2017-18. Whereas Westminster – aren’t.
OT..not sorry
Does Liam Fox Vote to cluster bomb other people’s children?
?
Does Liam Fox put everything I care about at risk of incineration?
Jist Wundering
Cause he now needs an acting award if he did.
S_L_O_W—-HANDCLAPPING….He his nae shame,bit worse than that he his nae soul!!
@ whoever wrote “With the neanderthal, drunken, orange bigots marching in Glasgow this weekend, Glasgow will be a no-go zone for NORMAL decent Scots.”
On 18 May, the SNP formally took control of Glasgow city council as a minority administration (SNP 39 seats, labour 31).
Is there no way Glasgow City Council could re-route the flute?
To some isolated spot/deserted carpark/ industrial estate? that would inconvenience no ordinary glaswegian but would still guarantee the Orange Order’s Right to march along the Queen’s Highway.
Can anyone identify a Queen’s highway anywhere near Glasgow, given that roads are maintained by local taxpayers?
Let them march to their heart’s content there or up and down and round and round some deserted place, followed by their supporters who have to march too, as they will no longer be able to just line the high street
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_City_Council_election,_2017
Kerry-Ann Mendoza on QT representing the new media, what price on the next QT where we are, an invite for Rev Stu ?
Lochside @ 11.36
I can’t confirm..but…as I was trying to say above..
When ye can use yer power to…
Kill other people’s children,by cluster bomb…. I would struggle to believe that ye actually care about human life in any form!!
That’s what makes his performance particularly abhorrent.
Shhhugar, nearly forgot.
STV – about recession – Maurice Smith, Business Commentator (write on the Herald some times):
“Actually the Scottish economy has been under-performing UK for many years now, we’ve had issues about growth over the last couple of decades at least, and party beacuse the Scottish economy performs as a regional economy, and it’s a perjorative word, but a branch economy, so we’ve … etc.”
So that’s the answer to the fing unionists, we’re a regional economy, a branch economy, so what do you expect? And it’s happened for decades, not just under the SNP.
So get that right up you UJ kilt and vote YES next time ya bas.
TheWasp @ 23:49,
What, the BBC reverting to “generous mode” now that they think indyref2 is “off the table”?
Huh.
Better not rescue them from their own sorry self-delusion, then…
frackemall
Trust everyone is being all sweet and lovely xx
Ben madigan @ 11.48
While I have said things along those lines Ben,it was very much toungue in cheek (I was for shutting a lane on the M8 to get them through the City, while annoying the least amount of people)
But please don’t forget,,, to ban any march will ban our march,and potentially everybody’s march… that’s not good!
The right to march is no ment to protect the marches every body likes…. it’s the one’s naebody likes that need protection.
So leave them alone tae protect yer ain rights…and mibbi take a wee bit o comfort in the fact that they are doing all the fighting to protect OUR right to march,how reasonable dae we look by ..Emmm…well… just,, letting them!
The question is…
At what point does Scotland say..
Waaaaait a minute, there is something amiss here.
Vote for freedom.
H-bound.
X.
Shengus!
Ah’ve left the beers in the freezer..
It’s gonna be an ICED beer return.
Ye ever been there afore?
Feck AYE.
Wherever you sleep tonight…
That is ur tiki post..
That’s ur HOME.
Fly ur flag.
Be good.
Lochside @ 11.36
The Doyle family tragedy happened in April 1984 when Liam Fox was 22 and could have been a junior doctor in whichever Glasgow hospital treated the Ruchazie victims – 5 died at the scene, 1 in hospital
But as someone upthread said it didn’t stop him from voting to bomb innocents abroad.
H.
Bullsaye’s on till uno.
Dart players going well.
X.
Ronnie anderson
I was looking at the national front page and saw this in the comments:-
The tories are looking for campaign managers, deadline end of August – October election
We’d better get our skates on with that YES campaign
Contestant:
Q) How many years are there in a millennium??
A) One million… wrong!
Actual A) 1,000.
You know.
Fuck Brexit.. every way BUT win.
Nae speedboat or caravan for you pal.
Knightmare!
Stewart frae stoney
ashtrays on a motor bike – i love it. great description of the tories. Bestest ever!!!
“Every which way but win.”
Dat’s more like it.
QT in 10mins.
Me time.
SCO*
X.
Ten, ten and ten.. They got the treble.. They got ra fiesta!
Well done.
Thrilled to bits!
+£451.
They got the treble.. 10 times..
XXX.
😉
No diversity. The Tory MP’s are all Male, white and middle class. They are not representative. Most of them are liars. Davidson is a total liar. The Cap IT investment is paid for EU funding. Not the Scottish taxpayer. It is being introduced to stop fraud. It will save €Billions in fraudulent claims etc.
When anything goes wrong the industry is bailed out with £Billions of public money. Mad cow etc. Farmers are being paid from a fund. They have to apply to the fund to get it. They have to apply to get subsidy funding in any case. Some are getting paid CAP earlier than usual. Some farmers get the biggest payments £Millions. They should publish a registry of payments. The wealthy farmers get the most and buy up more land with the money given. Some investors buy farms and land as an investment. Hedge funds and Tory MP’s. Trying to get favours.Land is exempt from tax. To keep larger farms together. They produce more. Many farms are businesses so pay tax on any profits. Corporation tax etc. Tax on revenues generated by wind turbine. Boost to the economy.
Ress Mogs mother in law got £100,000 to maintain a manor houses. No mention from the Tories about the extra CAP intended for Scottish struggling farms which the Tories took and misappropriated. Giving to farmers in the south.
No mention of the 40% tax on the oil sector since Jan 2016. Costing thousands of jobs in Scotland. The SNP Gov had done wonders in Scotland in a difficult situation.
Orange Marches are banned all over parts of Scotland (even predominately Prot areas). No one supports them They are an unequal, exclusive diverse Organisation, Nom representative and secretive. It really is astonishing the no of Marches in Glasgow harming the economy. It is ridiculous. Helicopters monitoring abusive football matches. How much public money it is all costing. Other people are not interested in it but have to pay for it.
Scotland is secular. A majority is not religious. The Churches have rights above the Law The equal opportunity employment.Laws. People can be employed in terms of faith/religion.
NI has always had more funding than any where to keep the unionists quiet. £42Billojn. Twice as much as anywhere. Norwegian levels of funding subsidies etc
Aweright ken500 ~
Nice, we good.
Cherrs bro.
Cherrs…
Is dat like..
Chairs! I was unpluckyish.
Featherin’ me wings.
Be subtle.
Be loud!
Be.
Ken 500 @ 1.13
NI gets more money per head because it has more powers devolved and the extra money goes to supporting those powers.
Sincerely hope it doesn’t mean devolved NI government is back in Westminster control.
Smallaxe, aye summon thee fine fellow..
Aye ahm the genie.
How do?
Yes!
CC sssooooon.
Happy holidaze!
Make a wish…
What’s yer wish FOR SCOTLAND, Scotland?
I can make all 3 of em come true.
SO can you.
Lead.
GO!!
X.
Feel FREE to come in early hour LTLurkers…
S’yours too.
RA!!!
🙂
Yesindyref2
Fair point, just read that in the guardian. Good to see
@Gfaetheblock
The Gaurdian is useful. In normal times it’s happy to be anti-Indy and anti-SNP, but if anything comes up that’s more important to it, it’s happy to discard that and compare Scotland favourably, even if that actually praises the SNP.
Ra is Glasgow.
RA is ra sun.
RA is yer eye aye.
RA is yer penial gland.
You are ra.
Use it.
X.
Hey Scottish teachers ~
How yee’s doing…?
Enjoy ur break.
Ur cool.
Feel the build.
It’s resonating.
Everywhere.
Awe around.
Scotland.
Everywhere.
Yes.
L.
Scotland is an integral part of the UK. As such, its economic fortunes are quite literally at the whimsy of Westminster. Scotland can, at best, tinker round the edges of UK economic policy. Anyone, and I mean anyone, hearing some report from some thinktank telling you that *right now* Scotland is struggling/in recession/shrinking growth or any other of the assorted negatives and concluding that this means Scotland *cannot* be independent is an absolute FOOL.
That tells you the exact opposite. Scotland is stymied by the union. It cannot use macro-economic policies to its betterment. It cannot decide to raise the minimum wage or change immigration policy. At the whim of Westminster politics, Scotland is an afterthought. Like a big massive fart during a cigar after an 8 course meal. For a moment it was fun but was quickly forgotten and never mentioned again. Someone else thought they sensed it for a moment but kept schtum, in case they embarrassed anyone…
The worst thing about the British media is the confusion they sow – quite deliberately. Yet it’s absurd to anyone with a grasp of economics to suggest that upon independence, any fake or real “recessions” wouldn’t reverse instantly!
What does anyone actually think happens when a country, loved and famed and even revered around the world, a country whose people are loved globally, achieves independence?
Investors lose confidence and pull everything out and suddenly we’re Greece? LMAO that is an idiot’s tale right there.
“Tonight we’re in Hastings and welcome to ra QT”
Here we go… allocations aye should be better.
Wherz ra money tree gonna come from?
Track back to ra money.
Not impressed.
Anwayzzzzz…
TALK ABOUT SCOTLAND.
RAAAAA!
What did you have for your dinner tonight?
A packet of Rolo’s.
Quality aye.
Cheers.
Eat or heat, heat or eat, take yer choice, if not at all.
Our homeless!!!
Hey Cactus!
Scotland!
Mair than able.
Mair than capable.
Plenty o friens.
Nae enemies (save the Auld yin) 😀
Aweright Az ~
Cheers bro / sis.
Tell me.
Plenty mair than able aye!
We are aye.
We are Yes.
We are Scotland.
We are 🙂
Fortunately, ahm fortunate enough to NOT be on the rolo diet.
Ra lasagne is in ra oven.
Let’s GO Glasgow!
We are the key..
To be FREE.
Respect.
Yes!
X.
Yaaaaaasss!!! Glasgow I like!!!
If ye know the auld advert…
You’ll understand..
The last Rolo!
Loveage.
Us.
Question Time was shengus.
Nae surprises.
Nae energy.
Nae neigh.
Summer is rapon us… let’s get busy adventurers of the free.
Cheryl Crow is right…
“A change, a change would do you good.”
Scotland.
Ah know… It’s Sheryl.
I smell the garlic.
Change you!
@aff tapic ~
Man vs Grub.
Me vs Family Size Lasagne (avec garlic bread)
Washed down with a..
Burp!
4X.
Respect freexom!
Cough cough!
Oh to be a refugee in Scotland…
What’s it like. How does it feel, friends?
We are welcome.
Tell us?
Please.
Love.
X.
Brw, me 4:01am refers to an announcer on the bbc tv.
He say, “Respect freedom”.
And he coughed.
We heard it.
Hey! Who was born on a today..?
Are you lovin’ n givin’.?
Yes you are.
Yes we are.
We are one.
We are ten.
We are millions!!!
Yes we are.
Man beats food.
Yaaaaaaaaas!
Ahm sweatin.
Cheers Az.
🙂
NB: tis gettin’ brighter… RA is a good sun a rising..
Completely O/T
This weekend we are being treated to yet another reprise of The Dunkirk Evacuation no doubt with all the usual stiff upper lip cliches..
While I would never criticise the actual achievement of evacuating so many I have always been curious as to why nobody has questioned whether or not it would have been possible to stay and fight indefinitely.
After all if it was possible to evacuate over 300k troops would it not have been possible to reinforce and supply them given that they still had all their tanks, guns and transport.
While the Germans probably had air superiority The RN was several times more powerful than the Kriegsmarine and as the Germans found out at Stalingrad tanks are at a distinct disadvantage in urban fighting.
Just a thought – I wonder if anybody else has opinions on this.
Scotland is everything.
It’s a superb speedboat.
+£299.
Nite.
An economy is the fiscal state of a nation or a region based on production and consumption of goods, services and the supply of money. The nation state has finer and wider control over all assets, natural resources, tax base and revenue streams. It controls the production of the currency used by all regions within its state borders and the legislation which fixes the terms of regional budgetary requirements.
A region may grow its economy, by making best use of whatever assets central government allows it competence over, or by attracting inward investment. It does not necessarily follow that the region will enjoy the full benefits of this growth however as any state accrued profits may not return to region which generated this revenue stream. The state may decide for instance, that such monies may be better served bolstering other parts of its overall economy in other geographical locations. Or it may just be a greedy, grippy bastirt that likes pishing yer assets up against a wall for its own pleasure.
That’s yer pooling and sharing right there and THAT is the difference between a national and regional economy. The terms (not the amount) of a regional budget are fixed in one direction but not t’other.
Scotland as a nation has a very limited and finite control of its own assets and revenue streams. Whilst we have leave to print our own currency, its overall control lies elsewhere. Our natural resources are not ours to bargain with and only marginally benefit from. Taxes from our products go to the treasury of another country. Competences for our administration and services are at the gift of a central government dominated by people we didn’t vote for. Our budget subject to forces and legislation largely beyond our control and voted on by that same government and house full of people we don’t know and have no control over.
Personally, I won’t listen to any pish from Harrison (never grows old), Dugdale or Rennie about what the Scottish Government should do to offset or mitigate anymore. Scotland has and is treated as a regional economy. We can grow, but we don’t control. We can grow, but don’t necessarily benefit. We can grow, but we can still watch families in our streets queue at foodbanks. We can grow, but watch our kids starve. We can grow, but watch our government struggle as it’s budget is cut year after year.
You want a government to do something about problems facing our services? You want a government to do something about our institutions, or whatever else you feel needs fixed, including our economic woes?
Then give them the power to do it.
If government fails when it has total control of every major aspect/lever of your economy that’s because they’re criminally inept and you’d think require replacing PDQ. Sadly and in ‘normal’ circumstances, that’s beyond the Scottish electorate’s ability to alter. We gave that ability away in 2014 I believe.
In short, if you voted NO or Tory/any other unionist party, then you don’t get to bitch about the state of this, that or the other in Scotland. The people who did that, chose to give state control of their economy to another beyond their control and that’s on them.
Keep me right crazycat…
It’s not the penial gland, no no.
It’s your ‘pineal’ gland.
Ye get it in yer heid.
Back to school for me and it’s the holidays.
Work, rest and PLAY.
@ Macart 5.32 – spot on. That is the concise summary of our economic situation that needs to be circulated widely. Hone and repost! Why should the insomniacs be the only ones to benefit!
Watched the “Hector” prog’ & Neil Oliver’s complaint that the folk in Nova Scotia were more Scottish than him! says it all really!
Liam Fox is a con artist, I knew somebody who was in his class in E.K & he maintained that he was the same age as him, & not what he makes out!
26Million Russians died defending the West. The Russians defeated the Germans and paid the highest price. 1 in Six of the population died. Their economy was devastated. They became slightly paranoid after two world wars 1 & 2 devastating their country. A Revolution 1917.
France and Britain 1/2Million each died in Europe (smaller pops) Devaststingly bad as well. The ignorant, arrogant European Royals (inbred British) caused the 1WW. Jealousys’ and rivalries. The divine right to rules. Every time there is a commemoration, the Tory Royals should apologise.
Fallon wants to start a 111World war with Russia. Spending £10Billion a year on squint redundant weaponry. The Westminster crooks are sanctioning and starving women & children, vilnerable people. They are just the pits. Dirty cowards. The Tories are despicable. Total liars.
The criminals at Westminster want eternal war. The EU wants peace. They have maintained the peace in Europe and the rest of the world. The UK/ US are warmongers destroying the world economy. The amount the US spends on redundant weaponry is a disgrace. It has the highest debt
and threatens the world economy. People in the US and worldwide are starving.
NI receives higher funding for it’s bigotry, sectarianism and unionism of a minority. Gets paid to keep quiet. The unionist do not obey UK Law. A Law unto themselves of discrimination and bigotry. Ruining their own economy. NI raises less than £28Billion of taxes but gets 50% more funding £42Billion (1.8million people) Norwegian levels of funding. According to the UK Gov accounts. They try to keep it hidden.
Scotland gets drained of all its resources and revenues and has illegal taxes imposed by Westminster unionists. Taking £Billions out of Scotland and wasting it on grotesque projects of no value. People in Scotland have to pay for it. £20Billion a year. Scotland would be better off. Independence in the EU. For a better run more equal, fairer. happier country.
EU membership cuts the Defence bill. Shared Defence and strength is one of the main advantages of EU membership. Shared security and fundamental rights upheld. Including the rights to self determination and basic human rights,
gus1940 says @ 30 June, 2017 at 4:58 am
I don’t have an indepth knowledge of the incident or the period. I had recently read Bernard Montgomery’s autobiography recently and he painted a less than rosy picture of the British army at the time and of the operation between the BEF and the Europeans Allies against Germany before Dunkirk.
It is telling that he had actively trained the troops under his command for withdrawal in the months beforehand. The impression I got from the book was that British military command was a complete shambles and it was indeed a miracle that so many troops were evacuated.
It does really remind me of the current Brexit where we have people in charge who haven’t got a clue and couldn’t run a piss-up in a brewery.
It is possible that the Allies could have defeated the Japanese in the Far East. Instead of surrender/defeat at Singapore. Both lines of supply was fully extended. There would have been no need for atomic weaponry at Hiroshima. The Japanese were trying to find a way to surrender. Still a paternal dominated society. The behaviours were questionable. Allies with a maniac for revenues and influence. Everything changes but things stay the same? Among the political class. Social economic rhetoric in Britain. Chinese call Britain. A small
island without influence or Empire’ Sums it up living in the past.
‘Scotland the land of invention and discovery’ Sums it up. One of the first countries to have tertiary education. TV, radio, tele communications – led on to the internet. Advances in medicine. Engineering etc. World class. Scotland never got rewarded for it. The Oil resources etc illegally and secretly taken and misappropriated. By Westminster criminals and liars. Trying to destroy the world economy.
O/T
I read that the cladding used in Grenfell Tower during its refurbishment was changed from Zinc Sandwich Type to Aluminium Sandwich because the Aluminium type was cheaper and saved the owners £300,000. This has been claimed to have greatly contributed to the deaths of a yet unknown number of the residents. That death-rate now stands quoted as, “At least”, 80 people.
The BBC report ends with this sentence :-
“There is no suggestion a deliberate decision was made to cut safety.”
It must be such a great comfort to the surviving relatives of dead people to know there was only a motive by the owners to save money rather than a deliberate motive to endanger the lives of the survivors loved ones.
Is there anything the state propaganda broadcaster will not spin to help the Westminster Establishment?
@Capella
“Why should the insomniacs be the only ones to benefit!”
I don’t know about benefit… 😀
For myself, the quiet hours are best for thinking things through, looking at issues from a different perspective as it were. Or simply cutting through the bullshit and tissue of lies fed to us on a daily basis.
It’s also a good time to escape the hurly burly of the daily thread and put some thoughts, opinion or insights out for working through.
That and Cactus is always there to give folks a lift. 🙂
we finally got clarification from liam fox and the lbc tory guy last night
we are leaving SM, not because we want to but because the eu says we have no choice.
too bad no one asked them what status we will then have, wto?
schrodingers cat
So all the EU effectively did was apply the rules it had said it was going to work to, the ones it told everybody about but Fox and Co didn’t bother to know about.
So the UK leaves the sm because the Brexiters are thick shits, who think the whole world works according to Westminster party politics machinations rules.
Anent “The Dunkirk Spirit”.
Back then, the English got out, the Scots of the 51st Highland Division were unwillingly left behind – and invented The Reel of the 51st Division to pass the time in their Stalag.
Today, the English still want out of Europe, but, this time, the Jocks will willingly stay behind. And I think we will be dancing while the English are in an unhappy prison of their own making.
Plus ca change as our old European allies say.
Dunkirk: A soldier’s tale!
When I returned at the end of the war?
From the stalag where I’d been confined
I read of the battles the Allies had fought:
Stalingrad, Alamein, and the Rhine.
Wi’ pride in their hearts people spoke of Dunkirk where defeat had become victory.
But nobody mentioned the Highland Division
They’d never heard of St. Valéry.
No stories no statues for those that were killed,
No honours for those that were caught.?
Just a deep sense of shame as though we were to blame
Though I knew in my heart we were not.
So I’ve moved to a country I’ve come to call home
But my homeland is far O’er the sea.?
I will never return while my memories still burn
On the beaches of St. Valéry
Peace Always
You’re correct Macart.
What worries me however is whether a Scottish government which for decades can do nothing to prevent the plundering of our oil and other resources by Westminster suddenly believes it has the power to negotiate our trade in such issues with Europe.
It’s a disarming belief that Brexit will somehow be ok because Westminster cannot bargain away Scottish resources, but for that to be true, we need to start reading the small print on sovereignty and being a lot more bloody minded about wielding it. If we can stop Westminster plundering our resources then for 40 years why haven’t we? Or if we cannot stop Westminster plundering our resources, then are we deluded about saving ourselves from Brexit?
I’m not at all comfortable with letting Brexit negotiations unfold with a view to disrupting their conclusions after the deal is done and merely awaiting ratification. We need to nail this issue of sovereignty now, before the Brexit negotiations settle down to business, with Scotland either in the fight or held remote from its own interests.
Theresa May wanted all dissent and the SNP crushed in that General Election. Why would she do that unless she anticipated the SNP hampering the Brexit negotiations at every turn? Not sitting back to reject a deal once it’s been done. More hampering and interference please, less “wait and see”, and “not being too hasty”.
We are being steamrollered and excluded from the Brexit proceedings, we seem dangerously complacent that sovereignty will somehow save us, but bizarrely disorganised about implementing that sovereignty.
In over 300 years, why has Scotland never sought to test the issue of our ostensibly “watertight” sovereignty with the integral weakness and flawed preambles in the Act of Union? Isn’t it about time we did? It does seem a rather incautious oversight in a campaign for Independence don’t you think?
We seem muddleheaded and clumsy about an issue that should be pristine and crystal clear. If we understood sovereignty better, we would know that simply electing an SNP majority in Scotland is a democratic manifestation of Scotland’s sovereign will, but instead of seizing Independence on that elected mandate, the SNP confounded that mandate by seconding themselves to a referendum which returned a conflicting result. Err, did we just shoot ourselves in the foot with our own democracy? How fickle of us.
We have a sovereign population which elects MP’s and MSP’s to wield our sovereignty, but contradict the mandate we give them in an election with a contradictory mandate we gave them in a referendum. It wasn’t Unionism which stymied us, it was our own bumbling interpretation of what sovereignty actually means and the boundaries which define it.
It strikes me we are making the same fundamental errors we always have. We seem to only have a notional understanding of the brass tack issues we need to sort out, when what is really needed is a forensic understanding of laws, jurisdictions, constitutional interpretations and precedents. Before we put things to the test, isn’t it wise to sort out what it is we are testing???
Let me repeat it. It isn’t Unionism which stymies us but our own bumbling interpretation of Sovereignty. We need to get our constitutional act together, because in YES2014, Brexit2016, and May’s General Election this year, we have given Unionism three free chances to get its act together, and despite their withering incompetence, they are slowly doing it. We are now sailing close to dangerous territory where it might very well be better organised Unionism which does stymie us.
We NEED to reset our own game, not just with the timing of ScotRef, but the WHOLE constitutional dogs breakfast.
For as long as we believe the problem is wrestling our sovereignty from the clutches of Westminster, we are failing to understand that the sovereignty we want back is the same sovereignty we are forfeiting to Westminster in the first place. As a matter of utmost priority, put our own constitutional house in order first, and the unconstitutional house of Westminster has its myths and illusions shattered.
Every day this fog in our heads continues, we are defeating ourselves with a lack of constitutional rigour.
Please. For the umpteenth time of asking, can we Commission a Judicial Review at the Court of Session to define and expand on the exact status of Scotland’s constitutional sovereignty?
liz g and others; I hope this helps, liz.
http://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/orange-walk-glasgow-saturday-roads-13251144
Peace Always
@ Smallaxe – good poem, who wrote it?
The men of the 51st who weren’t killed became POWs in Bavaria and Poland for 5 years. Many died as prisoners and others developed illness including PTSD. Once home, their lives and those of their families and children, were affected by the stress. I know because I was one of them.
It’s what I mean when I say that we have no broadcasting service that can reflect back our shared experience and lived reality. There are no documentaries, plays, book readings or discussions about such devastating episodes in our history. Each one was left to get on with life in isolation with no attempt to examine the facts, which are inconvenient to the Westminster Establishment.
@Brian Powell
Spot on. Anyone taking the slightest notice in the past year, would know how the EU were presenting their stance. They have been, and continue to be transparent.
That knob, Fox, and the msm will just continue to collude over how evil the EU is, and they have a punishment agenda. The majority lap it up, that is very clear.
Every week I think I will give QT, televised hatred, a miss. But, hope takes hold, that I might hear something factual, and every week, I’m rubber necking at a car crash.
I’ve got to the stage, I’m loathe to say, I don’t want to visit south of the Border, such is the picture this programme presents, every week.
On LBC this morning. England to have £6.1 billion spent on upgrading roads and motorways. How much does Scotland have in total to run the entire country again?
Capella; Full story here!
http://punditwire.com/2012/11/29/scotlands-forgotten-heroes/
Peace Alway my Friend
Breeks 9.25
Its along time since I broached the self same issue ie defining Scots Sovereignty via the Court of Sessions , given that it would cause a constitutional dilemma for the Court system ie Who do the College of the Court in their oath of allegiance uphold 1st the Scottish Sovereign People or the Crown of England.
Apologies for O/T but does anyone know what has happened to Peter A Bell’s “Scoop it”?
I thought the asterisk on “13-strong” would lead to some sort of “13-stable” joke.
Charled De Gaulle fought alongside the 51st HD most of the way to St Valery en Caux after Dunkirk.
His thoughts on Scotland, strangely rarely quoted in the MSM:
http://www.electricscotland.com/france/degaulle.htm
There are some fine monuments atop the cliffs there to our very brave men.
Macart 5.32am. Absolutely spot on post.
Capella: if you don’t already have it, “St Valery: The Impossible Odds”, Bill Innes, Ed. 2004, Birlinn, describes the experiences of two Gaelic-speaking soldiers after capture.
@Chick McGregor Great idea Chick , this is the kind of engagement I was hoping for , not the rant of Robert Peffers who seems to think he is the Oracle on Scottish Politics ! .You just have to scroll through the comments on WOS to see how frustrated we are of the constant hammering by the MSM we get ,yet seem powerless to do anything about it. Something needs to be done to address it , your idea would be a great start , more suggestions welcome !
O/T
I miss Nanas links but am offering a couple of items for perusal.
To my mind it explain why Nicola wants to concentrate on Brexit, and negotiating a deal for Scotland.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/06/28/lse-continental-breakfast-3-whitehall-feels-the-strain/
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/the-brexit-talks-opening-positions-on.html
@Capella (9.40) –
I’m no historian, just a normal dude who likes to ‘think’ he’s fairly well-read, but I first heard of the 51st right here on WOS, btl – it may even have been yourself who raised it. I then came across the book TC mentioned at 10.11, two, maybe three years ago.
Totally agree with your general point regarding how we can’t get to tell our own stories for ourselves. Instead, we get balloons like Neil Oliver offering the occasional ‘expert’ interpretation with the BBC imprimatur all-but guaranteeing that normal viewers will swallow it whole. It’s insidious and profoundly dishonest.
@ Tinto Chiel – thanks, I will get that. I was recently given “St Valery and its aftermath” by Stewart Mitchell but haven’t yet read it.
It is sad that the men are all dead by now so it is too late for them. But at least the younger generation can discover the truth. No doubt it is dismissed by the British as more grievance.
@ Smallaxe – thx – interesting read. Just one correction – they weren’t ordered to surrender. The last order was “every man for himself”. And that is how it has stayed ever since.
Also, Peter Scott – the bird man who had some navy role at the time – wanted to go across to France to rescue the 51st but was ordered by Churchill not to. There was an article in the P&J decades ago which was of great interest to the survivors.
O/T again
When I was a young man I worked beside Auld Tam. He had been captured at St Valery and spent the rest of the war in the salt mines in Poland, then on a farm in Germany. He was a fluent German speaker and also read books in the language. He had nothing but respect for the German people and he actually married the daughter of the farm he worked on after the war. But he hated the english, as he felt that the 51st had been sacrificed as they were only Scottish, and he said his father had told him similar stories from WW1
If the MOD has a tricky situation they send in the Jocks, why sacrifice their own regiments, the jocks are expendable, the poor buggers then have to fight for their lives.
bjsalba, and others who are missing Nana, our Lady of the Links!
Nana is unwell at the moment and has had a recent family bereavement so needs some time to recover.
Links coming soon!
Peace Always
Valerie says:
You’ve made me realise that subconsciously I’ve been thinking the same.
I have lived in England, and have had many excellent caravanning holidays along the south coast.
It is now over 10 years since I lasted visited England. And now I really just don’t fancy it. Sad what the BBC, the gutter press, and disgusting politicians have done to the perception of a whole country.
such ancient history is an inspiration for our movement and the memory of such injustices help drive us forward. But such legal niceties such as sovereignty are just that, legal niceties. They can and have been overturn as and when required.
I dont see how either help us in our present situation.
since the GE, there has been much gnashing of teeth and tearing of clothes about our powerlessness in the face of the unionist media onslaught but scottish victories always happen in the face of adversity and always because of the mistakes our larger neighbour makes.
take comfort in the fact that brexit is the unionists nemesis, not ours and we are positioned to take advantage from the fall out. re the bounce went out of corbyns bungie yesterday
We will win our independence, of that I am sure, but not through our own endevours, indeed, perhaps despite them. No, We will win our independence because brexit is the UK’s darien venture
@ Ian Brotherhood – there are a few Wingers who are related to ex soldiers of the 51st and have commented btl.
If there were 10,000 captured and who knows how many killed on the beaches, there are plenty of descendants affected by the aftermath. All individually piecing together what really happened.
Neil Oliver would be incapable of researching this. It is too much of a stain on the idea of “Britishness” he identifies with.
A Truth and Reconciliation committee would have been more appropriate. But sadly, the principals are all dead now.
LINKS; From the Lady!
Cancer funding;
https://news.gov.scot/news/funding-for-cancer-services
Why indyref is not going away;
http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/and-this-is-why-indyref-2-is-going.html?spref=tw
Scotland – EU relations as Brexit talks unfold
http://www.businessforscotland.com/scotland-eu-relations-brexit-talks-unfold/
Peace Always
auld highlander says:
General Wolfe said that Scottish soldiers should be sent into battle because “they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall.”
LINKS;
The Tories are laughing at us again!
https://randompublicjournal.com/2017/06/28/the-tories-are-laughing-at-us-again/
Send us the right message and we will deliver;
https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/send-us-the-right-messages-and-we-will-deliver-independence/
Scotland’s space industry;
http://www.businessforscotland.com/stb-scotlands-space-industry/
Peace Always
I think we can refer to the above rable of tories as the ‘faker’s dozen’
Or maybe the ‘taker’s dozen’
LINKS;
The media illusion around Ruth Davidson is as hollow as a Tory promise;
https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/11250/neil-mcleod-media-illusion-around-ruth-davidson-hollow-tory-promise
In Gratitude, by Rab Bruce’s Spider;
http://rbs.postach.io/post/in-gratitude
A renewed search for Yes amidst the debris of Brexit;
http://newsnet.scot/archive/renewed-search-yes-amidst-debris-brexit/
Peace Always
It’s not impossible to dramatise our history though. The play “Black Watch” was very popular a few years ago. Maybe because everyone had heard of the Black Watch though not many know its origins.
5 minute clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j_DqmTXHP8
Liam Fox is a liar. More interested in squandering £Billion/Trillions and lining his own pockets and his cronies with public money. Then the health and best welfare of the citizens. Causing hardship in the world. Now lying even further about the EU to cover up the criminal actions of the Westminster unionists Kept under the Official Secrets Act. Now lying to cover up their illegal acts against the best interests of the people.
They lie about the EU all the time. Blame the EU for Westminster mistakes. Try to divert attention for what the Westminster Tory/unionists have done. The lies that have been told.
Best wishes to Nana. Get well soon and have a rest. Thanks a Billion for all you do. You are amazing. Bless. Thanks
LINKS;
My Day In The Council Chambers – Debates and Disbeliefs;
https://davesworld2017.wordpress.com/2017/06/29/my-day-in-the-council-chambers-debates-and-disbeliefs/
At Momentum we’re back in campaign mode because an election is coming
http://archive.is/HuX3B
Grenfell meeting in Chaos
https://twitter.com/ConnorGillies/status/880485304410546181
Peace Always
When they make a Scottish Saving Private Ryan or,
http://www.hbo.com/band-of-brothers
you’ll know Scotland has finally returned to nation statehood.
Further to my original comment re Dunkirk and the subsequent postings re The 51st. Highland Division and St Valery is it not the case that further south where fighting continued a decision had been taken by our colonial masters that a second evacuation of British Forces was planned with surprise, surprise this time The 52nd. Lowland Division selected as the sacrificial rearguard.
They were only saved by the fact that the French surrendered which enabled a full evacuation including The 52nd.to take place before the Germans arrived. Said evacuation included the tragic sinking of the Lancastria.
I’m not 100% sure of the accuracy of the above but it is certainly something I have heard mentioned on several occasions.
Perfidious Albion.
Re The Dunkirk evacuation is it not a fact that the French were very bitter and felt betrayed.
@Bill McLean, 9.59
Peter Bell has two sites Scotto Voce/Many Voices – One Scotland and Referendum 2018/Scoop.it
LINKS;
Corbyn sacks rebels;
https://www.politicshome.com/news/europe/eu-policy-agenda/brexit/news/87132/jeremy-corbyn-sacks-frontbench-rebels-after-49-labour
“I honestly feel that if this was a white person attacked by an Asian…it’d be all over the news.;
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/880487382407053314
Ten Blue’s bottle it;
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/06/10-tory-mps-who-spoke-out-against-the-pay-cap-and-then-voted-for-it/
Peace Always
Had a look at other comments and never noticed this book being mentioned although of course I may have missed it, if so apologies but Saul David’s ” Churchill sacrifice of the 51st Highland Division” is worth reading. Isbn10:185753039x
Also worth noting that there were a lot of Jocks who were put into brutal Japanese hands after the fall of Singapore, all due to high command incompetence.
It’s a bit like the public skool boy Tories running the UK just now, total arrogance, racism and incompetence that completely dissed the Japanese, I remember reading an Allied Intelligence report at the War museum at Senkota Island just off Singapore. It said something like this “The Japanese are small in stature and can’t see, they have rifles like the cowboys and Indians and have Aeroplanes made out of old tin pots” they never mentioned the thousands of bicycles they used to cycle down the Malay Pennisular and panic the good old English General Percival into surrendering , nae bad 20,000 to 30,000 Japanese soldiers on pushbikes defeating more than 80,000 well equipped Allied forces, bet the Japanese could not believe it, they had hardly any ammunition left and very long supply lines.
I’m very confused today!
The single market was the red line for the SNP. WM just voted not to retain membership of the single market in the Queens speech. So it won’t even be a negotiation point.
So we now know it’s a hard Brexit whatever way we cut it. The SNP want to start building support for independence. But they haven’t named a date only that they will come back to parliament in 14 months!
It’s pretty difficult to galvanise and build support without actually having a date to aim for. It is a kind of limbo we have been left in.
Is anyone else now banging their head against their desk!
LINKS;
EU negotiator says ECJ should still be able to fine UK after Brexit;
http://archive.is/RsDzh
What if I told you that Councils had been ripped off to the tune of £2bn+ but the media aren’t reporting it as “too complicated..”;
https://twitter.com/Gian_TCatt/status/880540009127792640
Documents published as part of the European Commission’s approach to transparency on Article 50 negotiations with the United Kingdom.;
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiations/negotiating-documents-article-50-negotiations-united-kingdom_en
That’s all folks! Have a great day, the weekend is NIGH!
Peace Always
@galamcennalath, 10.54
The full quotation from General Wolfe is
“they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall. How better can you employ a secret enemy than by making his end conducive to the common good?”
Better Together in one sentence.
Big Jock says:
It’s pretty difficult to galvanise and build support without actually having a date to aim for.
———————–
why? we have been doing it since indyref1. each bad news brexit story is an opportunity for us to gain support
@http://www.scoop.it/u/peter-a-bell Bill McLean , here is link
Neil Oliver is a creepy example of UKOK unionist shill. Last big BBC archeology thing he did BBC wise, Celts of Europe, Oliver lied and lied his little shill arse off.
Oliver explained over Roman Empire invaded, conquered, colonised and Celtic Britain, he even lies about Scotland in his intro blurb.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06kpzcv
“The Roman army turns its attention to an island of rich resources, powerful tribes and druids, and advanced military equipment – Britain. This episode tells the story of the Celts’ last stand against the Roman army – a revolt led by another great leader, the warrior queen Boudicca.”
All of this beeb shyst deliberate ignores what actually happened in Celtic Britain.
Oliver blots out completely why Rome only conquered almost exactly half of this British archipelago, why we have Hadrian’s wall, why we have almost no Roman archeology in Scotland, why we have a Scotland and England today at all.
There will be great stories about how Celtic Scots defeated the might of the Roman Empire, for 400 years and went on to develop a highly characteristic Scotland we know today, very different from England, starting at language, if you like.
Even if you are a unionist beeb gimp like Neil Oliver, pretending that Rome defeated the whole of ancient teamGB, thereby wiping out all Celtic Europe let alone Scotland, you’re excluding how the history of the world was affected by the accidental creation of England, by Roman imperialism.
If Rome had failed to colonise the half of Britain they did, barely holding out at Newcastle, then no Roman Britain means no British empire, no British Empire, no WW1, no WW2.
Who knows, maybe Napoleonic Europe would not have gone on to produce a Hitler but you can take it further too. No British/English empire, no colonisation of the planet, no mass African slavery, no USA, no Australia, on and on it goes.
And yet all of this is blotted out by a sneaky wee unionist gimp with a very silly hair do.
He is minted though, have to give unionist shills that much. There’s loads of money to had lying for this farce union.
The Scots like the subjets of the British Raj were kept in check by the favourite English colonial policy of divide and rule. The picture of this sickening collection of smirking,spineless North Brits shows how easily and cynically they manage it.
Thankfully, the Indian Raj has gone, the Scottish ‘Raj’ and its decayed trappings are now long overdue for that dustbin of history. This one-sided ‘game’ has gone on too long.
@Big Jock
“Is anyone else now banging their head against their desk!”
Yes me too. Hard to campaign indefinitely.
A loan scheme in the interim would help the farmers , but there again Scottish Gov thought of that 1st, mibee’s Colonel Gadaftie will recommend that to Teresa.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/scot2.scot/permalink/1048816498586494/
Oops.
Oliver lies to his viewers that the Roman Empire invaded, conquered, colonised and Celtic Britain, he even lies about Scotland in his intro blurb.
@ cirsium 11.18
Isn’t that blood chilling?
Worse, nothing much has changed in terms of philosophy, and variants of it are openly practiced on Scotland every single day.
The background and education of the elite, all geared around this.
There are some days I find the ugly inhumanity overwhelming, such as Grenfell right now.
Poor Mrs Cameron, she’s so skint. The bit about Jura owned by David Cameron, “registered in the British Virgin islands tax haven” is very yoon culture, 21st century.
https://www.rt.com/uk/394616-samantha-cameron-wealth-david/
http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-virgin-islands-offshore-haven-where-trillions-are-hidden-2017-6?r=US&IR=T
“…mibee’s Colonel Gadaftie will recommend that to Teresa.”
‘Colonial Gadaftie’.
Fixed.
Heedtracker at 1140am,
quote “And yet all of this is blotted out by a sneaky wee unionist gimp with a very silly hair do.
He is minted though, have to give unionist shills that much. There’s loads of money to had lying for this farce union.” Aye, money and shiny baubles and robes.
Burns had it right, ‘bought and sold for ENGLISH gold, such a parcel of rogues in a nation’. Lots of Massey Fergusons in Scotland to this day. Lots.
I despair at anybody who pays the smallest bit of attention to what oliver has to say. Indeed, the same contempt should be held for ALL BBC ‘historical’ output relating to Scotland – or as they would call it ‘Britain’.
Christ on a bike.
Just listened to John Beattie chatting to the Grand Wizard of the Ludge about the parade tomorrow.
More normalisation of this shit. It’s all overt now, the Ulsterisation process well under way.
May couldn’t rout the SNP with a snap election, so Plan B swings into place. The same FUCKING plan used by the Empire in Ireland.
Send in the Ulstermen.
Big Jock
I posted last night that I’ve seen a link stating that ‘the Tories are recruiting for campaign managers deadline 30th August – October election.
Maybe Nicola realises things will change before ere long hence her ‘saying-something-but-not-really-changing-anything’ statement with it’s tip off to the YES movement to get going.
gus1940 says:
The Dunkirk evacuation was completed on 3rd June 1941.
The 51st division was attached to the French army, rather than the BEF. On the 4th June they successfully attacked the Germans on the Somme. The next day, gains were lost by a German counter attack and the Argyll’s badly hit.
When the French collapsed, General Fortune requested evacuation from Le Harve. Churchill refused. The excuse was to boost French morale, the reality was to fit in with the ‘fake news’.
The 51st surrendered at Saint-Valery-en-Caux on 12 June.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13411989.After_Dunkirk__Churchill_abandoned_the_Highlanders_at_St__Valery/
[Won’t archive]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/51st_(Highland)_Division#France_1940
The Lancastrian was sunk on the French Atlantic coast two weeks after Dunkirk while evacuating other UK and French forces.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lancastria#Sinking_and_its_aftermath
The common theme in all this is that UK forces continued fighting in France after Dunkirk. At the time there was a news blackout and the government spun the ‘fake news’ that Dunkirk was the end of fighting in France.
Fake news, lying, spinning, deceiving, and screwing Scots is nothing new.
Heedtracker – Oliver is a sham!
Another interesting statistical fact (not Unionist opinion) is that the Romans tried very, very hard to conquer ‘Scotland’ – there are more Roman Army marching camps north of Hadrian’s Wall than anywhere else in the world!
Don’t believe the British Nationalist propagandists who say the Romans decided not to conquer Scotland because of the weather or because we too wee and too stupid!! We defeated the biggest most dominant military force that has ever blackened the face of this planet and we should be might proud of our forebears for achieving that.
Meg merrilees says:
It would seem suicide for the Tories to call another GE. However, if the only objectives which matter are retaining their Union and implementing Brexit, then a probable Labour will would be likely achieve both.
This is a complete shite storm and perhaps the Tories don’t really want to be at the helm.
In a Scottish context, polls suggesting Labour might win would damage the SNP further.
In round figures, a million and a half voted YES. In 2015 almost as many voted SNP.
In elections since, the SNP has received around a million votes.
The enthusiasm has waned. It needs to be re-ignited. And IMO only an open and active quest for independence will achieve that.
Valerie says:
30 June, 2017 at 12:33 pm
“Send in the Ulstermen.”
Send in the Clowns!
Fixed that for you Valerie,
🙂
Peace Always
Bill McLean on 30 June, 2017 at 9:59 am:
Is this what you’re looking for?
http://www.scoop.it/t/talking-up-scotland
__________
Gala wrote at 12:36 pm:
“[Won’t archive]”
So? And? For those of you not wanting to help support the Unionist agenda against our cause by clicking on that direct link to a BUM rag, just Google Scotland’s Fotgotten Heroes and you’ll get as much access to that story as you need without helping the Unionists. Here’s a archived sample: http://archive.is/Uszy3
Breeks
Have you put your idea of the Court of Sessions, Sovereignty challenge v the Union on the
mobilise.scot website?
Time is crucial.
galamcennalath says:
30 June, 2017 at 10:54 am
auld highlander says:
send in the Jocks
General Wolfe said that Scottish soldiers should be sent into battle because “they are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall.”
The epitome of the “British” military, the “thin red line” stems from the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean war, when the British forces found themselves perilously off balance, with a strategic charge of Russian cavalry which threatened to seize the British held port of Balaclava, and had if fallen, the British would be left without supplies, reinforcements, or escape. The only thing standing between the Russian cavalry and the port was the “thin red line” of the 93rd Sutherland Highlanders, which couldn’t form squares as drilled to defend against cavalry because the Russians would have swept past to take the port. They met the Russian cavalry charge in line formation, somehow the line held, and the Thin Red Line was immortalised by a Times reporter who described the events he witnessed.
At Waterloo, the British lines were under intense pressure from the French, but the line was held by 92nd Gordon Highlanders. They’d fought a vital action the day before at QuatreBras and lost half their strength, and lost a further third of that depleted strength at Waterloo. The line was faltering and threatening to break when the famous intervention of the Scots Greys bolstered their defence. Heartened by the support, the Gordon’s reengaged the French and held their line. French were routed, Major General Sir Denis Pack rode up and said, “You have saved the day, Highlanders.”
I’ll be honest with you, these accolades are conflicting. The guts, bravery and fighting spirit is of the very highest order, and by all accounts these Scottish soldiers were fiercely proud of Scotland and being Scottish, but they must too have believed in the Empire.
I don’t know, but I wonder perhaps whether they’d have marched into battle for Wellington as proud British Unionists, but maybe had their own journey’s to Yes when they later returned home to find their families displaced and removed from their homes in the clearances.
When the British Government tried to recruit men for the Crimean War, the same thin red line Crimean War, there were only 3 Highland Regiments. Perplexed, the Government asked “where are the Highlanders?”
“We have no country to fight for! You robbed us of our country and gave it to the sheep.
Therefore, since you have preferred sheep to men, let sheep defend you!”
Robert Louis says:
30 June, 2017 at 12:30 pm
Heedtracker at 1140am
He’s worth listening to though, merely to have the eye popping experience of Brit nats lie to us, not just us, but anyone at all.”
Gimps like Neil Oliver are not just liars, they’re deliberately stealing our past, what makes us what we are today.
Beyond that, they’re robbing humanity of a clear non rule Britannia understanding of the how and why of all our lives, across the planet.
Ofcourse Oliver’s just another money grubbing shill, beeb’s got thousands of Scotch gits just like him, absolutely determined that Scottish history be buried completely. He’s certainly well remunerated.
Try saying out loud to anyone not Scots, Scotland defeated the Roman Empire, if it wisnae for Celtic Scotland, there’d be no England, let alone a USA or Australia, New Zealand etc…well its an interesting reaction, a reaction all down to shills like Oliver.
Look at what we all lose though, when professional britnat liars like Neil Oliver go about their UKOK workaday business.
Scotland is a nation forged in a 400 year war with the might of Rome and we won. For over 1700 years, Scotland was attacked but defeated invasions by several countries and people, Angles and Saxons, Vikings, Irish, Danes, Normans, English, all tried to invade and take over Scotland and all of them were defeated, by the Scots, defending their country.
Countries do die though and a gimp like Neil Oliver is just one of thousands of liggers and shills, all trying desperately trying to kill off our country, Scotland.
Can our 2000 year old Scotland survive being destroyed from the inside?
Watch this space:D
Why are they not wearing their sashes ? Perhaps Murdo Fraser can help them source some ?
Talking of redcoats – did anyone watch Outlander on More4 last night?
Galamcennalath
I agree that the tories would be crazy to call another election by October – however they are barely limping along as it is. How little afloat will T May’s gov be by then? and it is conference time…
Not sure how Europe will react to that proposal!
If direct rule is re-introduced in N. Ireland, they might want to drop the DUP as ‘expendable’.
Hammond or next wannabe PM can promise to lift the public sector pay cap in their manifesto.
Dangerous for the SNP – yes as tRuthless’13 stooges won’t have done much damage by then but, Nicola could come out for Indy as a result of yet more unstable leadership and the decision yesterday to reject the Single market. Who knows what the future holds- we have constant work to do.
What a year!
Achnababan says:
30 June, 2017 at 12:40 pm
Heedtracker – Oliver is a sham!
Another interesting statistical fact (not Unionist opinion) is that the Romans tried very, very hard to conquer ‘Scotland’ – there are more Roman Army marching camps north of Hadrian’s Wall than anywhere else in the world!
That’s pretty much all there is of Rome in Scotland. It looks like they tried to invade several times, their marching camps show this. It certainly looks like the Antonine wall was built a generation after Hadrians wall as part of a big colonial invasion, all clearly a disaster, despite the odd Roman villa being found along its length. So they all had to leg it back over the great wall of Hadrian.
Neil Oliver’s thesis, that Britain was Celtic Europe’s heroic last stand, after being wiped on the continent by Romans like Julius Caesar, really is the most appalling and politicised UKOK lie.
Celtic Europe lived on as the Scotland we know today, and Ireland ofcourse. And ofcourse, Celtic Europe is still here, today.
The Romans?
Its why its funny listening to UKOK britnats going nuts over Celtic road signs. From multi millionaire con artist Neil Oliver, to Celtic road signs enraging yoon culture. What a bunch.
O/T
I heard an item on the Radio this mooring about a project to re-introduce wolves and Lynxes to the British countryside following the successful re-introduction of Beavers and Bustards ( both of which are relatively small to medium sized and are not carnivorous).
A couple in DEVON are breeding wolf cubs which they hope to be release in the north of SCOTLAND and there is talk of other people releasing Lynxes in Kielder Forest.
Oh yes, farms would be reimbursed if livestock was taken as they might lose some lambs, but it’s really to control Deer.
Then they interviewed a farming couple in the ENGLISH borders who were obviously not too keen on the idea as it would affect the country’s foodstocks.
Finally one last word to the animal breeders in Devon – would you like to see BEARS re-introduced in Scotland?
Oh yes, that would be really good.
Be careful when out and about, folks – we might be the last to find out if these projects go ahead after all, it’s only to control deer.
And is it not the case that an entire Roman legion disappeared in Scotland without trace?
Somewhere north of Dunblane?
Interesting mentions of another election in the thread, if Scots vote Labour and Labour manages to get in it will be handing Scotland back to the Westminster Tories, simply because they control Westminster most of the time.
But many Scots are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. I guess worth remembering most of the Labour MPs in Westminster are Blairites, that’s the same type we got rid of in 2015.
Neil Oliver is a “tractor” to Scotland which is why the britnat bbc loves him. Don’t pay the bbc tax.
O/T but going back to the Fire and cladding issue. I note that the cladding insulation material is no longer stated as PE, Polyethylene, but the less flammable PIR. Mentioned in Telegraph but I shan’t give link.
However
https://www.celotex.co.uk
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisocyanurate.
This latter link states that a serious toxic combustion product of PIR is Hydrogen Cyanide. aka Zyklon B of well known infamy.
What price serious journalism?
Meg I see that it is now more than likely that the SNP will have to fight another election.
https://www.rt.com/uk/394594-general-election-campaign-tory/
Time to make sure the SNP get their vote out. We can take those 6 Labour seats back by simply getting some lazy SNP voters out to vote. If we can get over 40 next time then the Yoons can’t use the same attack as it’s an increase in Mp’s.
The SNP vote collapsed remember that. The turnout in 2017 was 66% and in 2015 it was 71%. 5% can make such a difference even if we only get 3% of that.
http://www.thecanary.co/2017/06/30/tucked-away-conservatives-website-good-news-everyone-wants-tories-out-image/
Only Americans can apply lol .
O/T BBC being very coy about how much they are paying the new cricket deal with Sky as part of a new five-year broadcast deal for the England and Wales Cricket Board worth a combined £1.1bn in which Sky retains the bulk of the rights after beating off its subscription rivals BT Sport.
KIV in view the £1 million a year they pay for Scottish football rights
Breeks at 0925am,
I wholly agree with you regarding Scots sovereignty. To my mind, if you were an alien just landed in Scotland, and read the treaty of union and how it was passed, then were told how things are currently run by an undemocratic and unrepresentative parliament in England, you would likely just scratch your head, and simply say, ‘National sovereignty is what a people believe it to be. It is not governed by law in the same way as other matters, since by definition, Scotland is still a country with its own fully intact legal system, and constitution‘.
People are so brainwashed by the hyperbole of Westminster ‘sovereignty’, it is like they cannot see the obvious reality right in front of us. Scotland is, and always has been a sovereign country, but is currently governed by the English parliament in Westminster by our own choice.
Their is NO law holding Scotland to London rule, none. The treaty of union, despite its wholly undemocratic signing in the first place, is a voluntary treaty between two partners, England and Scotland, and like any other treaty can be ended by either party. It does not allow England solely to determine if Scotland ends the treaty or not, or indeed whether England would accept such a move. That is why this notion of London blocking the holding of just a referendum is such utter hogwash. It really is class A bull.
The treaty of union is not magic. It doesn’t possess special qualities that no other international treaty holds. It is simply a written agreement between Scotland and England, and it is the only reason for Westminster currently abusing Scotland. Their is no other agreement, law or contract. None. Scotland’s situation is wholly and completely different to the situation of a region within a single country wishing to secede. Different in every single way.
The UK is NOT a single country. It is a voluntary union of collective countries and territories.
The second Scotland chooses to be independent, is the very same second when what London says or wants ceases to be relevant, and starts to be the opinions of a foreign state.
P.S, does anybody believe for even one minute, that if English people were being controlled and abused by Scotland in the same kind of way as Scotland currently is by England, that they would obediently doff their collective caps and ‘play by the rules’. No, not for one second. They would stand up and say ‘Enough! Carry on behaving towards England in this way, and we will unilaterally end the union treaty immediately’. No country would tolerate it, and they would not make themselves jump through political hoops in order to do so. They would just get on and do it.
Only in Scotland do we have supine (and sadly I do include the SNP) politicians who feel they need to play by London’s made up and highly changeable ‘rules’. It is patent nonsense.
Meg merrilees says:
I thought single market was an SNP red line. It’s rapidly becoming clear that membership and customs union won’t be part of the Brexit the UK will be seeking. However, it’s early days and let’s face it, there are two possible outcomes to the negotiations – the UK accepts what the EU wants (with a bit face saving tweeting at the edges) or a walk way.
As soon as it becomes apparent the single market is not on, the SNP as a party needs IMO to go full on for YES.
The Scottish Government and Parliament needs to sit tight until ‘no single market’ is official, then call IndyRef2.
Those two things are quite distinct.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9oJyjDWAAAY4Nd.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9oJwI8W0AEjRcw.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9oJ1BHXgAAGKdu.jpg
for folk interested in scottish history
quite a lot of roman finds in scotland (in red) but invariably military constructions
agreed gala
the effects of leaving the sm need time to take effect
that is the backdrop we will need to indyref2
Capella at 106pm,
It is somewhat shocking that Scotland is likely the very last country in the world to see outlander on terrestrial television. So many tourist come here looking for outlander locations, yet most Scots have not been allowed to see it.
Of course we now know that the Westminster Government persuaded SONY not to show it here, in the run up to the referendum in 2014. I wonder why????
Meg merrilees says:
30 June, 2017 at 12:59 pm
Breeks
Have you put your idea of the Court of Sessions, Sovereignty challenge v the Union on the
mobilise.scot website?
Time is crucial.
Have to confess Meg, in a lot of the stuff I say, the reason I say it is I kinda hope there’s enough SNP folks dropping in to read Wings that the better ideas might catch on, and develop a bit momentum and take on a life of their own. These aren’t my ideas, I’m just regurgitating what others have said to me, I’m just too lazy to type credits at the end.
I’m also mindful that Joanna Cherry was one of the founders of Lawyers for Independence, and feel pretty sure if anybody has a good grasp of Scottish legal position in constitutional terms, then that’s Joanna Cherry, so perhaps there is a technical obstacle that prevents it.
What say you Ronnie Anderson? What obstacles did you come up against? Is the subject old news and efforts to pursue this have been tried before but floundered?
See this is the type of discussion, bouncing ideas around and sharing of information should be part and parcel of the broadcasting we watch on TV, with progressive debates and consultations which precede the technical formality of the vote. We need a constructive narrative which promotes a much better understanding of the real issues of constitutional debate, and probes those issues to get to the bottom them. What we do get is BBC hysterics, game show type leaders debates, and inflammatory confrontational trial by “journalist”, and I use the term journalist very loosely.
Just imagine if Phantom Power Films did an hour long factual breakdown of the constitutional anomalies and irreconcilable paradoxes of the Union we are in, and drew meaningful comparisons with the Sovereign freedoms of Independence, and we somehow got that aired on TV, whether as a documentary or a formal Party political broadcast. We’d be having a whole different and vastly more informative debate about Independence.
Let’s take our lead from the Tories, who seem so terribly worried about our education, and work towards getting our voting population a damned sight better informed and constitutionally literate before the next referendum. Not only will the BBC NOT do that, I feel sure they will actively seek to prevent it.
Best advice I can give mobilise.scot is to come and read Wings.
Meg merrilees says:
30 June, 2017 at 1:19 pm
And is it not the case that an entire Roman legion disappeared in Scotland without trace?
Somewhere north of Dunblane?
They almost certainly did, slaughtered basically. No wonder. Rome had decided on genocide and slavery for all Celts. Caesar took over a million slaves from Gallic France.
This is actually not a bad history from the BBC, but check the publish date.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12752497
There was nothing assured about Roman invasion Celtic Britain. They were nearly defeated twice. Initially on the way back from slaughtering all Druidic culture, sheltering in Anglesey. The victorious Roman legions returning to London were wiped out completely.
Not long after, the second and remaining Roman army in Britain was nearly defeated again, but they turned it around, defeated the Celts, and probably killed so many, its one of the Iron age’s greatest loss of life in the British isles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_Street
So being conquered by the Romans for Celts, really was the end. Its extremely likely that Celtic Scots knew exactly how to win. And they did:D
Its really important to remember that everything you’re ever told about Scotland’s history, Bronze age, Iron age, dark age, almost all of it stems from just a few snippets found in ancient written histories, either Roman, Anglo Saxon, and Christian.
And its all aimed at denigrating and diminishing the nation state of Scotland, that none of them could defeat, no matter how hard they tried.
If their is another election, and the SNP want my vote, then they need to show their teeth, and stand up for Scotland’s place in the
single marketEU, and defend Scotland’s democratic vote to remain within thesingle marketEU.They need to attack full on, the utter nonsense duplicity and hypocrisy of the Tories and Labour.
meg merilees: lost Roman Legion here’s the hail story
youtube.com/watch?v=v5Uk-QpOHBA
Breeks at 152pm,
I like your idea of a Phantom power hour long special on the constitution and the union, things like McCormick Vs Lord advocate (from when we still had Scottish lord advocates who actually cared about Scotland and its laws) and so on. Sure many on here would fund it.
That’s 2 in a day. Keep going breeks.
@schrodingers cat says:30 June, 2017 at 10:48 am:
” … I am sure, but not through our own endevours, indeed, perhaps despite them. No, We will win our independence because brexit is the UK’s darien venture.”
While I hate to disillusion you, schrodingers cat, I feel it will. perhaps, help your understanding of how we got into this mess in the first place.
The entire Darien episode was without any doubt a Westminster undercover victorious plot to subjugate Scotland and it began a long time before the actual Darien expedition began. Here is the truth on the matter :-
The long held English ambitions to subjugate the British Isles as The Kingdom of England was thwarted by the Scottish wars of independence. What followed was the Declaration of Arbroath, in 1320, and the agreement of the Holy Roman Se that not only was Scotland an independent kingdom but that Robert The Bruce was Scotland’s rightful king.
Yet still there was no peace until the Treaty of Edinburgh-Northampton. As part of which treaty. on 17 July 1328 the boy who was to become King David II of Scotland was married to Joanna of the Tower, the six-year-old sister of Edward III. However, there was no issue from that marriage.
Then, as a result of that marriage of convenience, King James VI of Scotland inherited the Crown of England in what the English still wrongly still claim as, “The Union of The Crowns”. There was only a personal union of the crowns for James VI & I which is why he bore the designation of James was as the I & VI, there was thus no actual United Kingdom.
What happened, though, was a rebellion by the Westminster Parliament of England against their monarch of England that the English call. “The Glorious Revolution”, of 1688 when the English deposed their monarch and imported the foreign King Billy & Queen Mary of Orange and crowned them on condition they legally delegated their sovereignty, (Devine Right of Kings), to the Parliament of England.
As Scotland was still an independent kingdom in 1688 their rebellion did not depose the monarch of Scots and that began what the English still maintain was, “The Jacobite Rebellion that did not end until 1745, almost 40 years after the Treaty of Union was signed. The Jacobites could not rebel against a monarch not their own.
What followed is a story longer concealed than the MacCrone Report. The English had introduced what is known as, “The English Navigational Acts”, the precluded all others for dealing with the English Colonies except by use of the English Mercantile Marine and they included Scotland in that ban.
These Navigational Acts resulted in the English going to war with several European nations and had a knock-on effect upon the American War of Independence. These wars left the English Kingdom with a massive National Debt and there were several schemes mooted to get the English Parliament out of that debt.
The winning scheme was that proposed by the London Scot, William Patterson. This was to instigate a subscription Scheme to raise money from private investors to bail out the English Crown, (Parliament).
It was only fair that the rich merchants who had become very rich as a result of the Navigational Acts should stump up the cash to compensate the crown for fighting the wars to protect the English Mercantile Marine. This scheme led to the formation of the private company, “The Bank Of England”, so called NOT because the Crown Owned it but because the Crown Banked with it. It remained a private Company until 1946 when THE UNITED KINGDOM Nationalised it.
Then, 1n 1706/7 the same London Scot, William Patterson, was in Edinburgh instigating the Darien Expedition that bankrupted, (not Scotland), but the rich Scottish landlords who were also the Scottish Parliamentarians. What is not generally known, or taught as Scottish history, is that William Patterson was an employee of Sir Robert Harley who was the English Parliament’s spymaster. As Was the author Daniel Defoe who was also in Edinburgh and had the ear of those under pressure Scottish Parliamentarians.
Do not take my word for it – do your own research and you will find documentary evidence exists of all I have claimed in the comment above. Check out Sir Robert Harley, Daniel Defoe and William Paterson yourselves and do not ever again accept that what passes as the Scottish History you were taught is the actual truth.
What is not generally known…………..
I’m well aware of the subterfuge by westminster in the darien affaire and also the catalogue of mistakes by the scots.
the company was set up by Robert Blackwood and James Balfour, I own Balfour’s family home
so no disillusionment on my part and no increase in my understanding either robert. but thanks for the potted history
Anyone who didn’t watch the BBC documentary about the Marquis of Bute last night. Please watch it on catch up. He said he was born a nationalist and never waivered. Very ahead of his time when the union was all the wealthy cared about.
Meant to mention at the time, however it seems more current since the DUP bung deal.
Was over in Amsterdam a couple of weekends back. As a Europhile I felt just as at home in the capital of the Netherlands as I do in our own. I’m an unrepentant remoaner.
We spent bloody ages in the Rijksmuseum. Enjoyed the entire gallery dedicated to the Battle of the Medway – the Dutch make a big deal of their total spanking of the pre-union Royal Navy, wonder why the English don’t?
Unsurprisingly, there’s a gallery pretty much dedicated to William and Mary – we mused as to whether this could be a shrine for Orangemen – actual stuff they owned and touched! – the bigots could be at one with their deity… but I doubt that lot would set foot in an art gallery.
heedtracker says:
30 June, 2017 at 1:53 pm
Meg merrilees says:
30 June, 2017 at 1:19 pm
And is it not the case that an entire Roman legion disappeared in Scotland without trace?
Somewhere north of Dunblane?
They almost certainly did, slaughtered basically.
——————–
not certain, the 9th legion (Legio IX Hispana) story is disputed by many historians.
perhaps one day we will find the archeological evidence to confirm this story
Meg merrilees 1.18pm.
Private zoos were banned in Britain in 1976, but many owners released the animals into the wild rather than have them put down. So we already have wild animals roaming around in Scotland. I saw a mountain lion in the woods near Arrocher some years ago at around dusk, they are nocturnal, so you are unlikely to encounter them in daylight hours.
The small head and long heavy tail were unmistakable. I was never so happy to reach my car as I was that night. I can’t say I’m looking forward to meeting a wolf or a bear if they are allowed to roam here.
The unionist/orange order/ant-SNP tactical vote has led directly to their votes propping up a weakened Tory government now in the pockets of extremists who are anti-abortion, anti-gay and sectarian with direct links to terrorists. But, on speaking to those who actually voted Tory, they are unashamed! The lunatic fringe are taking hold and the BBC are happily colluding with them. Ruth Davidson and her coven of conservative creeps wish only to damage Scotland from the sidelines. Why do they hate their own country so much??
Questions:
1. How does an indyref stop Scotland being taken out of the Single Market by the UK Govt while it’s part of the UK?
2. How do you counter the argument Scottish independence would be a vote for uncertainty, as Scotland would be out of the EU / Single Market / United Kingdom?
January 2017 trade figures quoted by the BBC say:
rUK = £49.8bn
EU = £12.3bn
You could point out: “the size of the total European Union market is around eight times bigger than the size of the market across England, Wales and Northern Ireland”.
Also, if Scotland joins the EU the bargaining power of the EU in making trade deals with others would be probably be more preferential than that achieveable with rUK post Brexit.
Scotland could perhaps join EFTA which allows Single Market access and bilateral trade deals.
Just reinforcing previous comments about the Romans. In Rome itself there is a map in stone depicting the full extent of the Roman Empire. It does NOT include the land later known as Scotland. If the Romans themselves regarded our land as unconquered it sure as hell was.
Re: the union and Darien
What really IS less well known (well I didn’t know, anyway) was that the serial criminal, debtor and treacherous English spy, Daniel Defoe, was born Daniel Foe, but changed his name to Defoe, so it sounded grander – at least according to a recent article about the union treaty in The National.
@scunner
I was in the Rijkmuseum many years ago. Quite amazing and awesome art to see. I remember the huge ‘Night Watch’ being quite arresting, and always a tight crowd around it.
The other museum which is just breath taking is the Uffizi in Florence.
Gary says:
I’m sure you meant that to be rhetorical, but I’ll answer anyway – because they just don’t see Scotland as a country.
When they say the are Scottish, they mean it in the same way as someone might say Liverpudlian or Yorkshireman.
They will admit to being partial to a little local culture – tartan and shortbread. They will support the Scotland rugby team. They will jump around at ceilidhs. But that isn’t what 21stC enlivened and increasingly self aware Scotland means to most of us.
I suppose the key thing is, being born in Scotland doesn’t make you Scottish!
After the ’45 General Wolfe had a cunning stunt planned for the Clan Macpherson, Cluny remained in Badenoch for many years as he had the French gold & couldn’t go to Paris for obvious reasons. Wolfe had his informers, Macpherson of Killiehuntly being one, & the plan was for a body of Redcoats to kill Cluny at one of his hiding places in Laggan, the clan would wipe them out in turn which would give Wolfe the excuse to exterminate the Macpherson’s . “Can you believe I was once so bloody” he said in later life. The duke of Gordon claimed that the ’45 was the best thing that ever befell his Macpherson tenants, the cattle trade was booming & the tacksmen were flush with Louis D’or, paying off their arrears of rent & buying commissions for their sons in the British Army with French gold. Killiehuntly received £800 as his share of the loot which he banked in Edinburgh then informed the authorities. He was lynched after the service at the old Laggan Kirk by a party of women organised by Lady Cluny. Many of the clan served with Wolfe in Canada. Them wiz the days!
Re the term “Scottish Wars of Independence”.
I have always thought this a right weasely expression employed by Yoon historians. It implies we only were independent from 1328 and the treaty of Northampton (? iirc) when in fact Scotland had never been conquered at any time before that. The use of this term effectively reduces our independent status to less than 400 years (1328-1707).
“Wars of Resistance to English Invasion/Assimilation” would be a better term. Stuart McHardy has much to say on this topic.
Sneaky buggers, the Yoonsters: “Doing Scotland down since 1707”.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40447121
Every reason to expect an early election. Plus the Tories now see May as the enemy of their party. If they could guarantee an election victory they would sack her tomorrow.
Threads like this are why I love Wings.
Can you imagine a Yoon discussion of this depth and breadth?
Light on bile & disagreements.
Just generally “Grown up” like “normal” people.
Go on, point me at one that doesn’t descend (or just plain start) with insults, truth-twisting, misinterpretation…
Chris Patten, remember him, describes about 70 of his own Conservative party as right wing Nationalists but unfortunately they’re the ones controlling the party, and the worst of the lot is Liam Fox, he then went on to say he wished the others would stand up to them but they’re not likely to
That was in an interview on SKY News with Adam Boulton
Lord Patten went on to say that in terms of the European Union Jeremy Corbyns opinions are no different to that of the Tories and he’s selling folk a big fib if they’re putting their hopes for the EU in him
Lord Patten supports the aims and ideals of the EU and thinks it’s madness not to be a part of it
This man has not much of an axe to grind either way so Corbynites beware
“When they say the are Scottish, they mean it in the same way as someone might say Liverpudlian or Yorkshireman.”
They must wonder how on earth Scotland manages to gain entry into international sporting tournaments and Yorkshire, Lancashire etc can’t.
Mind you – I do wonder myself when Scotland will next manage to gain entry to another major international footy tourny! It’s been so long I’m beginning to think it’s mibbees coz we’re no’ a real country – or something.
But then I read the UK’s definition of itself to the United Nations – “The United Kingdom consists of Two countries (England and Scotland)….”
Nah- we’re defo a country.
Scunner – Because the average bitter unionist hate themselves. They tend to spew their venom out at reasonable people who disagree with them.
It’s the classic trait of any narcissist. They don’t want to debate , they want to shout down and insult. I have an imaginary tinfoil hat that I pretend to physically put on at work. It helps me deal with the unionists spewing out headlines about how bad the SNP are.
A big difference is that my fellow Yes colleagues at work talk quietly amongst themselves. We share stories and opinions or send emails and links. We talk like grown ups but never shout our opinions at the majority who are unionists.
They are a pretty ill informed bunch and we must always remember that. Their anger comes from their own cerebral impotence.
This hat I wear is amazing as it means I never react to their bullying or brainless outbursts. Whenever one of them addresses me personally about the SNP or Sturgeon. I now do the physical pulling on the hat motion. They get the message I am not playing the game and it means I can blank out the insults.
Dr Jim: and didn’t the sainted Jeremy sack three of his shadow cabinet yesterday for supporting a Single Market/Soft Brexit strategy?
He’s no fan of the EU and for once I agree with Patten.
Never mind, some muddy people at Glastonbury chanted his name so everything’s peachy now.
Wonder how long the BBC boosting of JC (those initials, eh?) will continue?
Ok – I mean get to the finals of a major (footy) tourny, not just the qualifiers. Although I’m sure Scottish Tories must wonder why we’re allowed into the qualifiers. Must give many of them a split personality.
Oh…
@Tinto Chiel
We’ve got New Labour who are exactly the same as Old Tories we’ve got Jeremy Corbyns Labour who are pretending to be Old Labour but are really old Tories
We’ve got this new bunch of Tories who are even worse than the Old Tories pretending to be nicer Tories than the Old Tories
Then we’ve got Scotland where they complain about the SNP giving free stuff to babies, building stuff and trying to keep us part of the world
Folk are definitely needing their Heids looked at if they cannae decide who are the bad guys here
Tweak the perspective just a little.
Don’t think of the Act of Union as a contract of Union, but a peace treaty between Scotland and England, which sought to make itself an unbreakable treaty by binding two countries at a sovereign level so no neither country could withdraw.
Just like a starfish grabs hold of its prey to keep it fast, while it extends its stomach to devour the sea urchin. The English wanted Scotland “held” by the Union long enough to Anglicise, woops, make that “Britishise” the Scottish population and create the illusion of one homogeneous culture; a Greater England they’d call a United Kingdom, with ghosts of cultural origins permitted, but nothing more substantial than ghosts.
Scotland was a worthy and difficult foe to crush and keep suppressed militarily, and worse from an English perspective, Scotland had the Law, righteousness, international standing and alliances, and even Papal recognition of Scotland’s inalienable sovereignty, which doomed any military conquest to being a certifiable and inevitable breach of rudimentary international law. You might take Scotland by force, but you couldn’t hold it.
No military conquest of Scotland could ever secure formal legitimacy, because it couldn’t deliver sovereignty to the conqueror. The Divine Right of Kings, sovereignty by conquest, was thoroughly trumped by the popular sovereignty of the Scottish people.
It’s true, for generations the ruling dynasties of England and Europe tried to manufacture legitimate claim on Scotland. “Righteousness” claims can be bought or bullied and history rewritten by the victor, and political or military alliances can shift if there’s enough gold to do it. But Sovereignty? That was the pinch.
Scotland’s sovereignty was unique in all of Christendom. That damned Declaration of Arbroath and its Papal recognition of a popularly sovereign people! You couldn’t beat a Scottish monarch and usurp their Kingdom under God. You could force yourself into the monarchy by wars and marriage, but you were no nearer to any claim on sovereignty. To seize Scottish sovereignty was a Labour of Hercules because wherever there was a Scot, there was a joint custodian of Scottish sovereignty. You could slaughter every man, woman, and child in Scotland, but if even one survived, then Sovereignty still eluded you and was still beyond the reach of any usurper.
Even an uneducated, illiterate population which didn’t even know it was sovereign, was still safe in its sovereignty because what they didn’t know, the law, recognised by God’s eyes and ears on Earth, did.
For Centuries, Scotland was a conundrum for the English Throne. An enemy and an affront on their doorstep. Scotland was for England what the Gordian Knot was for Alexander the Great, a puzzle with no solution. Alexander put a sword through the knot, but putting Scotland to the sword achieved nothing. Scottish sovereignty looked to be right there for the taking, Scottish armies slain, the country ripe for invasion but still, the damned sovereignty was a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, forever out of reach. What could be done?
This question of what could be done, is the essential essence behind the Act of Union. That which you cannot hold or destroy, you have to control.
If you can con the sovereign people, bamboozle them with language, make them believe one thing and doubt the truth of another, distort their culture, make them believe your folklore not their own, bribe their leaders to secure acquiesce to your goals so the peasants are betrayed by their own kind… You know the form, the job of the BBC, but circa 1700.
The Act of Union was a contrived 18th C device to divorce Scottish medieval Sovereignty from the people who might wield that sovereignty, and create the illusion that the power of their sovereignty was safe, recognised, respected, but just removed from them, held hostage in Westminster for safe keeping.. But it is all a con. Ye just cannae do that. It disnae work.
By guile, bribery, intimidation and propaganda, the Union created a conceptual barrier between the sovereign people of Scotland and the sovereignty they held. Deception, and a false constitutional narrative foisted upon a population that was angry, but so tired of war, lay the foundations for a Union that would last 300 years and counting. But it has remained a Union which could never afford for Scotland for learn the truth about its constitutional history.
For 300 years, the United Kingdom has survived by social engineering of our “rulers”, cultural engineering of our “Britishness”, and dilution, suppression, and disinformation about our true cultural roots and identity.
The Act of Union, by no accident but very deliberate design, is actually a very clever and cunning device, and has “affected” Westminster’s control over Scottish sovereignty when it actually has no claim whatsoever over it. Clever and manipulative though it is, it is still not clever enough to remove the popular Sovereignty from us Scots.
The Act of Union cannot remove our sovereignty. It’s all a cunning con to make us believe it has.
People say it doesn’t matter. It’s just a perception. It doesn’t mean anything… but it does.
Sovereignty is abstract. It’s an absolute condition. I don’t want to teach folk how to suck eggs, but it’s important, but also difficult to describe a thing that’s abstract.
It’s like ownership. Ownership is also an abstract concept, and also an absolute condition. What does it actually mean? If you own something, it’s yours. If it’s stolen, it’s still yours. If it’s loaned out, it’s still yours. If it’s lost, it’s still yours. Only if ownership is traded legitimately, by sale or gift, does the ownership transfer on to somebody else. You can steal it, but you don’t own it. You can borrow it, but you don’t own it, you can take possession of it, but you don’t own it.. you get the picture? Forget all the permutations, ownership only flicks one switch. Something is yours or it isn’t – end of debate.
Sovereignty is the same, but the absolute condition sovereignty relates to is not ownership, it is power. If you are sovereign, you have the final, binding, say within and throughout your sovereign jurisdiction, and you cannot be overruled. You have power over something, or you don’t – end of debate.
If you think sovereignty is complicated, you’re not doing it right. It’s very simple. Being sovereign means nobody else is. Quite literally, you cannot be overruled because there is no ruler above you. If there is a ruler higher than you, then you’re not sovereign. They are.
Sorry for the long post folks. They just seem to get longer and longer.
I can’t mind if I read it in the Monty auto-biography or elsewhere,but there was mentions of Scottish officers requesting transport at Dunkirk so he could move his men to other parts of the France in order to stay in the fight.
I’m sure the likes of that and for instance the exploits of Mad Jack Churchill goes down well with the armchair warrior set in regards to the exploits of the ‘Brave Scots’, but I wonder if these types of officers were actually fit for command and were only in the Scottish regiments because nobody else wanted them because they were do dangerous for the men under them?
@Tinto Chiel says: 30 June, 2017 at 4:03 pm:
“… Wars of Resistance to English Invasion/Assimilation” would be a better term. Stuart McHardy has much to say on this topic.
Sneaky buggers, the Yoonsters: “Doing Scotland down since 1707.
They were doing Scotland down a long time before 1707, Tinto Chiel. Did not King David II to be get betrothed in marriage to Joanne of The Tower in a failed effort of England to marry into the Scots royal family?
Only for the scheme to backfire when Jamie VI inherited the Crown of England. However, by both the English resistance to becoming part of the Kingdom of Scotland under the English Law, (then still Divine Right), and the fact that under Scots law he was not sovereign under Scots law and thus did not have Scottish sovereignty to add the English sovereignty to. He never became Monarch of a United Kingdom.
Macart at 5.32 and Breeks at 9.25 – 100%
We need the likes of you, Messrs, Bell, Piper and others whose contributions are valued on this site and other sites, to get this show on the road by way of your knowledge, spreading the word and inveighing the rest of us to assist in the forthcoming struggle and legitimising the position of the sovereignty of the Scottish people.
Thanks,
Ian
Yes, I to believe, Breeks, the people of Scotland are a sovereign people.
And a majority of that sovereign people in 2014 voted to remain part of the UK.
In order to obtain independence and end the Treaty of Union we must convince a majority of our fellow sovereign people here in Scotland to vote to end that Treaty, to vote for independence.
They have their sovereignty – they’re just using it (currently) to stay with the UK.
I fervently hope that changes in the not too distant future.
If though, Breeks, you are saying the Treaty of Union is founded upon the illegal usurping of the people’s sovereignty and thus that the subsequent Act of Union is therefore illegal then that is a whole different ball-game.
And, even if a court case came before the Court of Session and it was upheld that the Treaty/Act illegally usurped the people’s sovereignty, then what?
I rather doubt the 2014 majority who supported remaining within the UK would happily accept that such a decision meant they were no longer part of the UK. I believe the only ‘safe’ way to settle the question is by referendum.
There seems to be growing consensus that there is nothing particularly positive about Brexit for all aspects of the economy;
‘the nonsensicality of Brexit…
It would however be wrong to forget that Mr. Hammond and his supporters only constitute one wing of today’s Conservative Party. Mrs. May’s new ministerial team has had to find room for such prominent Eurosceptics as Michael Gove and Steve Baker. For a number of reasons, the most radical Eurosceptics within the Conservative Party have decided in the short term to acquiesce in Mrs. May’s continuing leadership of the Conservative Party; they have tolerated the major concession made by the British side on 19th June, that of accepting the EU’s preferred timetable for the Brexit negotiations; their major representatives such as Dr. Fox no longer regard as taboo the possibility of a limited “transition period” after March, 2019; and Mrs. May’s government has been allowed to make an initial offer to its European partners on the subject of reciprocal rights for British and EU citizens after Brexit.
But it would be optimistic in the extreme to imagine that the power of radical Euroscepticism or the determination of its many representatives within the Conservative Party have been broken by the results of the General Election…
During the negotiations with Mr. Barnier and his team, it will become clear to the British public that in these negotiations the British government is confronted with a limited and unpalatable range of options. It can choose a merely damaging Brexit, changing as little as possible, as slowly as possible of the present economic and trading relations between the United Kingdom and the European Union; or it can choose a disastrous Brexit, sweeping away to the greatest extent possible the basis on which commerce has been conducted between the UK and the EU over the past forty years and creating an unpredictable economic environment in which the only certainty is that the immediate future will be worse than the recent past’
http://fedtrust.co.uk/a-chaotic-brexit-is-still-a-possibility/
And these are the scenarios:
‘The results of four different Brexit related scenarios are shown below. The scenarios start out narrowly by just considering trade impacts, and are then extended to include broader changes in demand.
• Scenario 0, looking solely at the impact of the “tariff burden” effects suggests that the direct effects of this post Brexit imposition will reduce overall gross output by around 0.5%. Some individual sectors experience output reductions of around 5%
• Scenario 1 considers a larger, but time limited “short sharp shock” to the UK economy as part of failed Brexit negotiations. The overall output loss is estimated at around 5%.
• Scenario 2 considers a more gradual but medium term reduction in final demand estimating that there could be an overall drop in output of over 8%.
• Scenario 3 shows the impact of a more serious Brexit induced recession, led by drops in private consumption and investment. This could have far wider effects, and lead to an average output reduction of over 10%. For some sectors this could lead to reductions of nearly 25% in output…
Claims that a post Brexit world will lead to a dynamic surge in British exports have been found wanting. Tariff protection in many of the world’s fastest growing markets, the BRICS and in Asia are substantially higher than with the EU. NTBs are even higher. The scale of success needed in these markets to make good a 10% reduction in exports to the EU looks improbably high, and is unlikely to be achieved in the near future.
These conclusions suggest that it is in the national interest to secure a “good deal” on Brexit, and it contradicts any assertion that “No deal is better than a bad deal”. It also helps to fill a gap admitted by the Minister for Brexit, Mr David Davis, that no contemporary modeling of the consequences of a hard Brexit has been undertaken’
http://fedtrust.co.uk/our-work-on-europe/hard-brexit-international-trade-and-the-wto-scenario/
Of course Scotland, the country, voted for none of the above.
Just catching up here…
Sovereignty. It was nominally given up by a parcel of rogues, and the people of Scotland have since largely acquiesced in a kind of Faustian bargain with the British Empire. But the Devil has to have his due, and as we know He has plenty of willing little helpers who take their cut.
It’s waking people up from that one-sided compact that’s the key. This curious dependency that keeps so many in thrall, and in some cases even positively unwilling to receive the truth. Institutionalised. It’s this pathetic situation that irks pessimists like you-know-who, I suppose. If we as a people decided to make a change, there’s no Westminster constitutional theory that could or would stop us. In effect that’s what the UKSC said, in its own very subtle way.
It must be very puzzling for people elsewhere in the world who have endured far worse to re-establish their own governance. The EU27 must despair of our failure to react decisively to this Blue-Red coalition Brexit trampling over all our clearly-demonstrated wishes.
Nicola has now presented us with her own challenge. She has in effect said “why do you expect me to do all the heavy lifting, and save you from yourselves? High time you took your share of the burden, so it’s clear that I’m working with real popular support and not just scheming on my own account.”
Which includes people whose judgement is widely respected coming out clear and strong in support of independence, and being given an opportunity to be heard. Like A.C.Grayling – an Englishman, FGS! – but at least it’s a start.
Breeks @ 5.04
That’s a great explanation of Sovereignty.
Your last paragraph is also … I think….. the answer to the question you were asking previously, about why not go to Court,to establish Sovereignty.
To acknowledge that a judge’s opinions are what would define Sovereignty…. would then, it could be argued, put that Judge above Sovereignty.
Although again it could also be argued that we as the Sovereigns have given permission for the judge to do just that……But then this Judge could in theory rule our Sovereignty is now to lie else where,then what?
So practically the judge can only reach one conclusion, therefore there is nothing to actually Judge…and round and round it could go.
Not forgetting the role of the monarch in all this… IE… It might need to be Auld Lizzie Windsor who asked for a judgement,from a judge who cannot play at being the crown when the crown is in the room,or something like that!
She is meant to be the defender of our Sovereignty…
Might actually be fun though to try and involved her in it all….but as I am sure you don’t need told “they” would never allow it..
But even having said all that it’s political Sovereignty we need back…..we have always kept legal Sovereignty.
I think (though couldn’t be sure) that if the Courts ever have a role in the ending of the Treaty,it would be a very specific question probably about which Parliament needs to do what…..but as for Sovereignty it’s self that’s.. us.. that get to say where we want it exercised London or Edinburgh the courts can’t do that.
They can only confirm and enforce which ever decision was made.
Breeks – thanks for the post , as you say a bit long ,but cant really be condensed much or the essence would be lost ,
Well worth a read thanks .
@ Tinto Cheil 4.03
I heard the term ” Wars of Occupation” and have used that ever since
Sorry Tinto Chiel typo
@ Tinto Chiel – Kindle edition of Bill Innes book acquired. Thx
@ Lenny Hartley – Saul David book ordered Thx – ony 1 copy left!
That will keep me occupied for the next week or so.
Do we really need a history website where all these topics can be covered?
“When it ( A Section 30)is FORMALLY requested (and remember, it has not actually been asked for yet) it WILL be granted.”
A draft order for a Section 30 would need approval by the Commons and Lords. A reason I could see them being willing to approve it sooner rather than later is, if they are confident Scotland is going to vote No again, so there is no advantage in dragging it out till 2021 in the hope that pro-indy MSPs become the minority at Holyrood, after the 2021 Scottish election.
Also, the UK Govt may want to try and defeat the independists before the full effects of Brexit kick in and more of the middle class NO voters feel the negative effects in their wallets and purses.
Thus, it may suit the UK Govt to try and defeat the independists earlier rather than later.
CoLiN aLeXaNdEr says:
You’re like a court jester Colin.
You and good old Rock, tragi comic, with quinoa, in an armchair and the finest wines known to man, and woman.
You know, it was a Scot that invented the armchair CoLiN, honest:D
Good post on sovereignty Breeks. But I think the distinction between sovereignty and ownership hinges on the concept of transferability.
Namely, ownership, of virtually anything, is transferrable by agreement (usually involving some payment in money or in kind terms).
However, sovereignty, if it is an unalienable universal human right, is not even transferrable by agreement.
Certainly not by an arrangement made by alleged representatives of the people who are currently sovereign and perhaps not even if every single personage of that people agreed to it.
Nae probs, Fran @ 5.51. I have sometimes been called Tinto Chief, which I kinda like. Wars of Occupation is a much better term than mine, anyhow.
Hope you enjoy the book, Capella 5.56, particularly since you have a family connection.
Some great posts on this thread, but you realise most of us have been off topic for ages?
Where’s the Rev with his Thor hammer? Maybe he’s been winning at the poker.
Both disgusting and utterly shocking! £1.1billion BBC/Sky deal.
http://archive.is/5QVy4
If you pay for a TV Licence YOU are funding this.
Capella @ 17:56,
Actually that idea (“ScotWiki”?) has merit. It could provide a carefully-assembled and fair-minded historical resource for everyone to dip into when needed, and save the likes of RP having to repeat it again at length in threads here.
A simple reference to the relevant web page would then be a more compact and effective response or rebuttal as required.
Maybe such site(s) exist(s) already in some form, of course. But not within my (very limited) ken. If so, knowledge of where and what may be the issue.
Thanks to Cirsium at 1118, John at 1136 and Stoker at 1257 for their help with Peter A Bell “Scoop it”. I had it in my “favourites” list but lost it when changing from Windows 7 to 10. When I clicked the tile the page told me it was unavailable. Recovered now many thanks and sorry for late reply – shopping day!
Just home from the valleys.
What is Ruth Davidson doing towards the good of Scotland. Ms Davidson should be demanding equal rights with the DUP or withdrawing her MP’s support from the tory government.
Failure to do so would be a gross did-service to the people of Scotland.
Robert J Sutherland at 542pm
I admire your determination, but it is simply no good to say ‘we need all of you to do the work’, that is a cop-out. It needs leadership. So, we need to know, who is in charge of the indy campaign? Without leadership we will merely have all the usual suspects telling us they only want independence, but ONLY if it is like ‘THIS’.
We need leadership. Strong leadership.
@ RJS – ScotWiki sounds good. Is there anyone reading with the ability to create such a thing?
It might need a curator of sorts to keep it relevant but there are plenty of topics of interest to get started.
(I hear Tom Devine is retired?!)
heedtracker,
“ever read anything even remotely positive or interesting about the SNP commented by gits like Rock? ofcourse not.”
Rock (4th July 2015 – Scotland’s Embarrassment),
“Green poiticians are opportunist hypocrites just like the Lib Dems.
They know that their policies could never be implemented but play the nice guys to win votes.
People vote for them in good faith, as they used to for the Lib Dems.
Like the 1300 that voted Green enabling the Tory viceroy of Scotland get in with a majority of 900.
Ken500 often says that they are in the pockets of the big landowners and I wouldn’t be surprised if they are.
Patrick Harvey never misses an opportunity to attack the SNP.
Green and Socialist MSPs have their own agendas and would hold the SNP to ransom if the latter didn’t win an outright majority.
Anyone whose top priority is independence must give both their votes to the SNP in 2016.”
Rock (28th June 2017 – Contempt undimmed),
My motto is:
“Always vote, and always vote for the SNP, until after independence.”
Lenny Hartley@ 11.23
I have been doing my family tree for a few months and vague half remembered snippets of conversations by older relatives have come to life.
I had recollections of someone being a POW of the Japanese and being harshly treated but I have since found out the facts. My grandfather’s cousin was taken prisoner in Singapore, and had such a horrific time he didn’t speak about it ’til the day he died. The other POW was my grandmother’s brother William. He served in the 155th Lanarkshire Yeomanry, and died of lack of vitamins in Thailand.
I had no idea about the 155th Lanarkshires so I researched the story, and it is another tale of woe. Hardly any of the troops were killed in the fighting, but they were so badly treated and overworked by their captors that only around a quarter of them survived.
My grandmother’s family stayed in Lyon Street in Glasgow, and if anyone hasn’t read the WW1 exploits of that street, they should check it out
Sorry for the bit of a ramble folks
A quick google search for Scottish history doesn’t inspire any confidence. Apart from Wikipedia, which might be OK, and BBC which definitely isn’t OK there is nothing of much interest. A History magazine (subscription), the Tourist Board and a Scotlandinfo sight which has a “wee” history of Scotland (cringe) which starts off with:
They are always busy fighting wars, and when there is no war they fight against each other
So we can safely say there is no existing history site of note.
Big Jock,
“The SNP want to start building support for independence. But they haven’t named a date only that they will come back to parliament in 14 months!”
Rock (28th June – Slight reprise),
“Admit it or not, the independence cause has suffered a major setback.
The UK will have a “snap” Brexit while we are caught napping with no legislation in place for an independence referendum.”
Proud Cybernat says:
30 June, 2017 at 5:37 pm
“If though, Breeks, you are saying the Treaty of Union…….I believe the only ‘safe’ way to settle the question is by referendum….”
Correct, correct, correct.
If the Sovereignty of Scotland cannot be removed from the people, then Westminster cannot claim sovereignty over Scotland, because they be obliged to respect our sovereignty. That makes the Act of Union unenforceable as a contract, and unenforceable contracts are void contracts.
If you just tore up the Act of Union as void, you’d have a popular revolt amongst Unionists, and you would also have 300 years of constitutional history to reverse engineer. So to simply declare the Act of Union void is a potentiallly dangerous thing to do.
However, the Law is the law. And if you don’t think you’ll like the answer, don’t ask the question. If you trust the Courts to clarify a point of legal principle, then an honourable and diligent Court would do so, dispassionately, and without prejudice or fear of the consequences. I believe the only judgement they could come to would be to confirm the legitimacy of Scottish Sovereignty.
If that is on the cards, and paradoxically despite what I have said I don’t think that’s our best option, but that it should be a desperate last resort. However, as I have said in earlier comments, IF this path did become necessary, I would take the judgement as advisory, but not declare Scotland Independent, but place Scotland in a state of constitutional stasis, neither Independent nor subordinate to Westminster. I would then hold a plebiscite to determine how and in what direction Scotland chose to exit that constitutional no-man’s-land.
The only problem there is that the options listed in the constitutional plebiscite would all have to be compatible with legal edict on sovereignty, so if the current UK Union as it stands is unlawful, it could not be a option on the plebiscite. However, a new Act of Union, that is a consensual confederal Union between two sovereign countries, could be and properly should be an option, with the caveat that such a Union would be a new Act, and require negotiation and ultimately the Consent of the English to deliver.
What I said about the SNP seconding their Election to office through the referendum was correct, but not meant as a criticism. I rather suspect Independence won by a majority of SNP members elected would have similar legitimacy to the legal sovereignty from the courts. It would have been constitutionally sound and legal, but would nevertheless provoke a similar backlash. Unionists would feel conned and disgruntled.
The 2014 referendum once held however, set a benchmark we will have to live with. It gave us an electoral majority straight from the sovereign people saying No. I don’t believe that precedent can now be overturned by the lesser threshold of a majority on elected MP’s. From now and forevermore, a simple FPTP majority of SNP MP’s will never take precedence above a referendum majority. We flicked a switch to NO, which counts as our sovereign voice until we flick the same switch to YES. But don’t be sad, in a true democracy, that is probably the correct thing to do.
The sensible thing to do in my humble opinion is to have the Court of Session put the writing on the wall about sovereignty, but to stop there, effectively know what is in the letter but don’t open the envelope type scenario. We must then be sincere, magnanimous and acutely respectful of Unionist sensibilities, and patient enough amongst ourselves that despite having our sovereignty recognised, we do not enact that sovereignty to render ourselves Independent before there is a democratic majority to support that decision. That means a multi option plebiscite, and that plebiscite would have to afford voters the choice of some kind of Union through which the UK would survive.
By far, a straight electoral fight in an honourable referendum is the most trouble free way of getting over the Indy threshold. But even supposing we were to romp home with a 70% majority, there still remains some likelihood of a backlash. And we do know how long certain Unionists can carry a grudge.
There is however one more dynamic to consider in all of this, and that is Westminster. Westminster acts as though it’s cock sure of itself, and has Parliamentary Sovereignty over the whole UK blah, blah, blah…. But genuinely I wonder how a discreet and internal constitutional adjudication kept confidential between Holyrood, the Court of Session, and Westminster would alter the disposition of Westminster.
If Westminster was to know the game was up, and Scotland was constitutionally out of their reach, then that would be a game changer for Brexit negotiations. Scotland could make its own sovereign commitments to stay in Europe and deal with Europe as an equal, and Westminster, well, they’d have another bad day at the office.
However, I don’t think we should kid ourselves about England and Wales barrelling out of Europe is anything like the whole UK doing likewise. I think the departure of Scotland from the UK would be the big wake up call that could bring Westminster to its senses. The Chunky Marks of England will find their missing cohesion and thing would change very quickly. They are so far gone that Brexit is inevitable, but wiser heads will also know after a brief period of isolation, England will be desperate for a face saving way of getting back into Europe. In that scenario, not only could Scotland provide meaningful help, mediation, and a workable transitional border arrangement, but with the credible and virtually inevitability of a sovereign Scotland still an EU member, Westminster also should think long and hard about doing the dirty on Scotland in the short term through Brexit negotiations. In that possible scenario, Scotland would also have a veto too.
And in that last scenario, where Westminster has to bite its lip and accept that UK is finished, but recognises the benefits of an amicable split with an EU member state, you then have a situation where fuel for British Unionism quietly becomes a lower octane product. That could be an interesting development too.
Interesting time all round.
Big Jock,
“The SNP vote collapsed remember that. The turnout in 2017 was 66% and in 2015 it was 71%. 5% can make such a difference even if we only get 3% of that.”
Rock (24th June – Come On Arlene),
“My prediction is at the next snap general election, the unionists will be emboldened to stand single candidates and there will be hardly any SNP MPs left.
The biggest mistake in 310 years was to miss the opportunity of 56 SNP MPs out of 59, an SNP majority government in Scotland, the non-deliverance of the vow and the remain vote with a big margin to quickly mobilise and call a snap independence referendum when the unionists were in a complete mess.
Admit it or not, the fall in SNP support from 50% to 37% is a major setback to the independence cause.
To get back on track, Nicola must very soon state clearly that there will be an independence referendum before Brexit is completed, with or without Westminster’s permission.
Then go on the attack. Take the gloves off.
No more flogging dead horses – Scotland cannot and will not get a separate deal if and when the UK leaves the EU.”
Patience, mes braves. The SNP have just fought a Holyrood Election, an EU Referendum, put together a compromise plan which should have pleased a lot of people, to stay in the Single market, pushed for that, setup an Indy Ref Consultation and analysed it, plus some other consultation before that I totally forget what it was, then council elections and lastly a General Election.
My guess is they’re absolutely knackered!
Meanwhile however, the People of Scotland are now under no pressure, and this is a good time to talk about it with people, with no pressure to “convert”, kind of along the lines of “Well, what do you think of all this stramash?”.
Hearts and minds, hearts and minds.
Chick McGregor says:
30 June, 2017 at 6:22 pm
Good post on sovereignty Breeks. But I think the distinction between sovereignty and ownership hinges on the concept of transferability….
Correct Chick. No dispute with anything you say.
If anything, Scottish sovereignty seems to be even less transferable than the norm. Lol.
LOL.
Meanwhile the Unionists are doing their crunchie. They’re getting more daft by the minute, the tweet, the post, the statement, and more and more extreme. And very very rude, naughty things, smack smack.
They obviously seriously thought they could bully the SNP to take the Indy Ref “off the table”, and instead have been kicked under the table themselves to beg for scraps. Basically speaking, despite the title of this article, they’re well and truly plucked. Plucked like a chicken bone. Plucked senseless. Plucked up in all sorts of weird and unique unionist ways. At least I think it’s “unique”, sounds almost like it any way.
Unionists are plucked. And they know it!
Robert Louis,
“since by definition, Scotland is still a country with its own fully intact legal system”
The only problem is the Scottish legal system is rotten to the core and the vast majority of lawyers, especially judges, are the lowest of the low.
So called “human rights lawyers” included. They trouser hundreds of thousands while people starve in Scotland.
I can say with 100% confidence that if loud mouthed spineless “sovereign” Scots ever put their money where their mouths are and petition Scotland’s highest court for a definitive answer on “sovereignty”, it will rule in Westminster’s favour.
As, effectively, did the twats at the UK Supreme Court.
It is much easier (cowardly) and cheaper to shout about our pretendy “sovereignty” than to actually try and gain it.
Independence and “sovereignty” will come to Scotland over the dead body of the British establishment.
Destroy the BBC first, even before thinking about independence.
“And in name order: (Scotland’s name and shame Tory MPs)”
Does that mean: “Put forward a positive case for independence, instead of making it a party political argument focused on attacking the Tories and Labour”, has been cancelled then?
If youse alienate the 55% of voters in Scotland who voted Tory and Labour in this 2017 GE by slagging them all the time, how do you expect to get a majority for independence?
@Robert Peffers
@Tinto Chiel
I have always thought that odd. It ignores the nationhood of Scotland prior to England graciously accepting our independence.
There is another historical example which is equally baffling. In Spain the Peninsular War against Napoleonic occupation is called La Guerra de la Independencia Española. Was the powerful country which conquered most of the Americas not independent? Very odd.
The Wasp @ 7.46.
Would be most interested to know name of book re Lyon Street.
I was born in Oakbank Hospital, my paternal grandparents stayed in Wigton Street, my parents in Milton Place and maternal relavtives in Glenmavis/Maitland/Eagle Street with others in various streets either side of Garscube Road.
I’m wondering if there needs to be a hard Brexit so that upon the dissolution of the UK, neither Scotland or England can inherit the UK’s EU treaties? A clean break then for each country, who can then negotiate their own EU treaties. All done under the transitional arrangements of Article 50 of course..
colin alexander says: 8:26 pm
If youse alienate the 55% of voters in Scotland who voted Tory and Labour in this 2017 GE by slagging them all the time, how do you expect to get a majority for independence?
Odd question Colin.
So..what, we should thank them for the blind and ignorant oppression of our basic human rights?
Should we congratulate their non-fact-based-denial of the benefits of self- determination, that 45% HAVE recognised..?
Let us get a few things correct, and out in the open, before we go any further. There is only one legal, “Treaty of Union”, in force in the United Kingdom.
There were two legal, Acts of Union, that were legally applied before there was an actual,“United Kingdom”, but, arguably, neither, “Act of Union”, can now legally be enforced.
Sounds a bit complicated but it really is not. The Treaty was, and still is, a legally binding agreement between two equally sovereign kingdoms. not countries, but, “kingdoms”, and that is very important to understand.
The whole point about sovereignty, especially when that Treaty and those Acts of Union were being agreed, was totally a concept of the Christian belief that there was only one true God in heaven, The concept of sovereignty was that God in Heaven was all powerful and only God in Heaven could delegate Earthlings to exercise God’s Sovereignty. Now here’s the thing.
Both Acts of union were instantly rendered inoperative because both parliaments that passed them ceased to sit as parliaments of the kingdoms they represented. Although, due to a technicality only the parliament of England sat and dissolved itself. The Parliament of Scotland was only prorogued and thus never dissolve.
Thus the claim recently being postulated by Westminster that the Westminster Parliament of the United Kingdom is the continuing and renamed Parliament of the Kingdom of England has no legal basis in fact. The last time a Parliament of the Kingdom of England legally sat was before 1st May 1707 and thus both Acts of Union died with the birth of the newly created Parliament of the United Kingdom.
The only agreement that could legally continue after 1 May 1707 was the Treaty of Union for the only thing either Act of Union legally did was to stop both the existing parliaments having sovereignty over their respective kingdoms. Yet the Treaty of Union is legally a bipartite contract between two equally sovereign kingdoms.
So what of legal sovereignty?
The Treaty, above all else, (in the preamble even), states that no Roman Catholic can be the monarch of the United Kingdom and, article of union Number 19, states that the two legal systems, being incompatible, must forever remain independent as the Kingdom of England’s system legally has the Monarch of England as being sovereign but must legally delegate the Divine Right of Kings to the Parliament of England.
While the sovereignty of the kingdom of Scotland legally remains with the people of Scotland and the monarch, in Scotland only, is the legal protector of the people’s sovereignty.
The instant that the people of Scotland become organised and, as a legally recognised majority, state that Scotland is ending the Treaty of Union – the Treaty of Union instantly has ended. It really is as simple as that for there is nothing, in the unwritten as such, constitution of the United Kingdom that updates the concept that God in Heaven as the sovereign power who chooses the monarchs by accident of birth.
That is they only remain politically difficult until there is a democratically established majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland who can then assert their collective legal sovereignty.
Which makes it crystal clear just why the unionist parties are running hither and thither, bleating in unison, their unionist mantras of, “The Scots electorate don’t want another referendum”, and, “Nicola Sturgeon should take the threat of a referendum off the table”.
The point that they recognise that such a referendum does indeed constitute a threat tells you just why they are permenantly in a state of panic and denial.
Robert Louis @ 18:54,
I do sympathise with your evident frustration, RL, in fact I share quite a lot of it myself. And I wasn’t disagreeing with your essential point, which is why I mentioned the need (among other things) to have civic heavyweights make more impact and not merely observe passively from the sidelines, reserving judgement.
Unlike almost any current player, the SG is behaving responsibly and “looking after the day job”, for all the thanks it gets (including some grumbling from the indy side). That is not nothing, and must consume a lot of effort. Good governance is a necessary condition, although it is clearly per se not a sufficient one.
Revolutions are not formed by one lone individual, no matter how talented or inspirational. All of which, I think, requires that the “Yes” movement had better get going again, and toute de suite. It was a gross error, I believe, to fold post-indy as abruptly as it did.
Reflecting upon recent events with regards to Scotland’s future, it really does feel like Nicola is saying, ‘look I can show you the door and help you towards it, but at the end of the day, it is you that has to decide to walk through it.’
And for what it is worth, I believe if Scotland does not walk through it this time, she never will.
“I have always thought that odd. It ignores the nationhood of Scotland prior to England graciously accepting our independence.”
I quite agree, galamC. Love the “graciously accepting”!
Until recently, most of Scottish history has been written “under the influence” of a Unionist perspective. Gordon Donaldson, I think, called Prebble’s various writings “rubbish”. Maybe that was because the latter was left-wing and closer to the truth than his own dry-as-dust, conformist accounts.
Before Mr Peffers’ posts, I found inspiration in PH Scott’s and David Daiches’ volumes on both our accursed Union and Andrew Fletcher, and these are still the basis of my views on the subject.
Ironically, some English writers produce more balanced and intelligent accounts of crucial events in our history. Alfred Smyth’s volume on the waning of the British kingdom and the arrival of Gaelic in the Lowlands in the Arnold volumes on Scotland is really good.
As always, the problem in Scotland resides with those Scots who don’t mean Scotland when they talk of “my country”.
I know many think ancient history is irrelevant but you really need to know how the Scottish narrative has been twisted and traduced for centuries by those who wish to continually trash us.
yesindyref2 @ 20:03,
I’m wondering if some of the answer, when the time is ripe, might be to emulate the old-style Tupperware parties.
That is, to have indy supporters garner interested neighbours with the offer of some nibbles and wine (or whatever), and play them several pro-indy videos (like the “no to yes” series plus others like maybe an intro by WGD) on the telly, then follow-up with a short but somewhat focussed discussion. (So no room for idle whinging or mutually-reinforcing “whit can we dae”? passivity.)
Such an invite would be of no interest to the local BritNat diehards even if it were foolishly offered, since they would only be spoilers anyway. But “soft-no’s” might be persuadeable, and once exposed to something much closer to the truth – and the whole truth – be weaned off all that BBC propaganda.
I’m thinking that kind of proactive peer-to-peer networking might be especially influential on the womenfolk, who seem to be inherently more hesitant.
@TC –
Kin right.
So many talented folk in Scotland, the telling of our own history will be a boom industry as and when we’re free of Auntie’s death-grip.
Outfits like Netflix are really showing the way – some of the documentaries on there are just soo-perb e.g. ‘I3th’ (all about the history of slavery in the US and why it currently has approximately 2.5 million people behind bars) and ‘Requiem For The American Dream’, a brilliant extended interview with Chomsky.
Imagine all the stories we could tell about Scotland – the bad as well as the good – if we were truly free to make all commissioning/editorial decisions for ourselves?
Those are two great examples, Ian, actually.
“Imagine all the stories we could tell about Scotland.”
Just so.
And yet today John Beattie on VichySoundScotland took the time to interview the OO Head Honcho in an effort to normalise these “hicks, rubes, and drivers of second-hand fords”, no doubt to soften us up for transmission of their hateful walking practice next month.
Good job I don’t swear.
I can’t remember who it was upthread (Breeks?)who recommend we watch ‘The Richest Man in the Empire’ aired on BBC2 last night at 9pm.
I’ve just finished watching it and it is the story of a remarkable man – a 21st century man living in the 19th century. Well worth a watch.
@ Robert J Sutherland at 9.26
Women for Indy did something along those lines about 18 months ago, as part of an exercise to determine the future direction of the organization.
I believe it was moderately successful, though they were concurrently running an on-line consultation and it might be difficult to untangle which ideas came from where.
Nevertheless, it’s clearly an idea worth exploring.
@TC –
I feel a wee bit sorry for Beattie. He took some real pelters on The Twitter today after that broadcast, but it’s possible that he genuinely – as he claimed in the interview – doesn’t know much about sectarianism (esp the ‘Glasgow’ variety) and was trying to find out more.
Truth is, many Glaswegians go from cradle to grave without the faintest idea about what these ‘marches’ are all about. They are so used to it that they think nothing of locking themselves in for entire weekends while mayhem rolls around their neighbourhoods. Cleaning human excrement from your front-garden and/or close is something of a rite of passage for householders in many areas.
The timing of the piece is, however, deplorable, and Beattie should be having a serious word with his producer and/or whoever came up with the bright idea of inviting Grandmaster Whoever-he-wiz to do a cuddly chat. It certainly didn’t sound that ‘comfortable’ – the dude (was it McHarg perhaps) was very shaky and defensive.
Curiously, it all reminded me of a previous RS interview with O.O. high-heid yins. It was on Lesley Riddoch’s show, but it wasn’t marching season. I remember the date precisely because, near the end of her show, after talking to these O.O. guys, she said, approx 1.55: ‘If you’re anywhere near a television you might want to switch it on and watch what’s happening in New York.’ Aye, it was Sep 11th 2001.
You’re being very fair to Mr Beattie, Ian. He may, on account of his Rugby-Private School background, be genuinely unaware of the West of Scotland problem, but surely someone in PQ Towers could have had a word. Alternatively, should someone so naïve be on the airwaves? Much as I loathe Kaye Adams, she knows what’s what, and how.
Numpties are everywhere. I once unsuspectingly objected, as an atheist, mind, to a friend about the O/O marching past an old Catholic church in my home town. His reply was this practice was “part of OUR heritage”.
End of a beautiful friendship.
I find this sly BBC attempt to normalise bigotry all part of Project Ruthie.
Anyhow, we need to plan the revolution, mon vieux. See you on O/T with times, dates, personnel.
😀
Ian Brotherhood @ 10:30 this morn,
The St. Valery story was in the folklore – in the NE at least – when I was young, a diffuse resentment among those who had heard about it by word of mouth, but like many other inconvenient facts, it was never articulated in the public domain. Self-censorship, partly a residue from wartime, I suppose, but also informed by the now-familiar “mustn’t be divisive” attitude of those with ready access to the media.
It is said that history is written by the victors, but not all of them get an equal shout. At least not with Scotland in the Union!
That’s not all in relation to that badly-used division either. Check out the even less-well-known story of the Salerno Mutiny of 1943:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salerno_Mutiny
@Robert J. Sutherland
Yes, that could work, as crazycat says about WFI. Another idea would be some trad song, a little poetry, and that thing that has practically disappeared – the story teller.
Fairly gently nuanced, and with the aim of making people aware of their history, even their neighbourhoood’s history. Target for that would probably be 60+, with some 50+ going and even some a lot younger. People can surprise you.
Totally non-pressure I’d say, come in, listen, enjoy and leave. But it helps to open the mind and heart.
Very precise points Robert, regarding the history of our perceived sovereignty.
England created the illusion that Scotland wished to cease to ‘be’ – with England being more strong and stable and all that.
They couldn’t steal our nationhood, so their Establishment built their entire system of government and patronage around it.
They call their victory ‘Great”Britain’.
They cause Brexit because The EU wants to see the books WHICH WOULD EXPOSE NEW HISTORIC AND MODERN STANDARDS IN ELITISM.
@Robert J. Sutherland –
Cheers.
🙂
I have never watched a Hitler speech. But I am pretty sure I know what he believed. Interviewing an Orange Order fascist, educates no one.
You can describe burning witches as part of our heritage. It’s still shameful, mentally deranged and wrong.
Swap Catholic for Jew and it’s pretty clear how fucked up these people are. They are celebrating oppression. Why does John Beattie need to have a conversation with someone who belongs in Carstairs.
It’s a form of mass psychosis.
Why do the O O play flutes in Scotland?
Because their banjos would get wet in our typical summer weather. There was me thinking it was goats they made squeal.
Simples
Beattie’s interview with the OO wizard is part of the UK state’s plans to accelerate ‘Ulsterisation’ in Scotland. David Torrance flew that scurvy flag several months ago and some of us smelt the stench of a deep state manoeuvre.
The Tories and the UK state tried to destroy the SNP and the Indy movement with the ‘snap elections,…some snap..they were screaming ‘No surrender to Indy’ at the local elections.
It didn’t work..so now it’s the oldest tactics..divided and conquer. .get the prods on side. ..the scabrous orange ones and the rural anti central belt ones.
They’ve encouraged a settlement of loyalists criminals from NI to settle in Ayrshire. .many of whom were involved in September 19th George Square riots. .why?…for the same reasons they were used and protected by British Intelligence in their homeland to assassinate ‘targets’ identified by the same shadowy elements running the fake news propsganda that we are bombarded by day and night on the BBC.
Beattie is an arrogant and stupid dupe. His broadcast was a deliberate provocation aimed at stirring up ancient and diversionary hatreds
I listened to Mr Beattie on BBC today trying to normalise the orange walk as a cultural exerciset
The BBC is trying to support Mays alliance with these people
THe BBC has given prime air time to the lodge inviting people to come along to, join ikon but totally ignored 25000 peaceful families walk through Glasgow supporting yes
Total shame on the BBC and anyone involve Mr Beattie you are beneath contempt
PG McLaughlin @ 8.39
I’ve only managed to scratch the surface with the family from Lyon St at the moment as I am concentrating on the other side of the family at the moment, so most of my research has been on line.
I think there was a book written by a local teacher in the late fifties or early sixties, and it was around that time a commemorative plaque was removed from a brewery or a local pub, and a group was formed to rescue it for the community.
My grans family were the Daly’s from 37 Lyon Street, who then moved to 413 Garscube Road
Lochside @ 23:18,
I didn’t hear the programme, so I don’t know how it was specifically handled, but one can reasonably argue it the other way round, that fully exposing these primitives is exactly what we do want. They tried desperately to keep hidden during indyref1, for example.
Because most ordinary people are turned off by their intolerance and idiot cod historical nonsense, in point of fact.
For years after I landed in Glasgow, and only very occasionally observing some march from a distance, I always regarded them as some kind of raggle-taggle absurdist street performers. A laughable totally irrelevant throwback with vaguely unpleasant undertones.
It seems that close up they are anything but good entertainment to anyone but themselves. Better we all know that, and thereby better understand what Unionism really means.
John Beattie isn’t the first – and certainly won’t be the last – to fall foul of this nonsense.
My late uncle lived in Pennyburn, Kilwinning for as long as it took to raise a family, then shifted to London for the remainder of his life. Part of the reason he left was that he just didn’t know (despite being Glasgow-born) the depth of hatred for Catholics in the area. He was physically ejected from the ‘Buffs’ pub in Kilwinning after being refused service one early-afternoon. The reason? He had green ‘in his tie’. As it happens, he was a Murphy, but they didn’t know that. (Apparently, the landlady claimed to be able to ‘smell’ Kaffliks.)
Does anyone know any of the dozen or so innocent ‘questions’ which reveal which foot one kicks with? They exist. This much we know. But what are they? They change all the time, so you can’t be quite sure, ever. I’ve been listening for years, trying to work out what they are, but I haven’t even come close to identifying a solitary one.
James Kelman mentioned this, in interview, years ago, referring to sectarianism while talking about his novel ‘Kieron Smith, Boy’: ‘The subtleties, they’re extraordinary.’
Aye, Kelman’s right. They’re ‘extraordinary’ right enough, and John Beattie has become the latest victim. Mind the other novelist, O’Hagan? He ‘dissed’ Kilwinning because of this shite and he’s still persona non grata despite being raised there.
It’s fucking pathetic, and no-one with half a brain can possibly raise any logical or moral defence for it.
Having said that, will I go to Saltcoats tomorrow to ‘protest’ against the 4,000 ‘visitors’ my neighbouring town is hosting for the day? No chance.
Will any Glaswegians mount a protest against their city-centre grinding to a virtual halt because 40-odd ‘bands’ are exercising a democratic right? No they won’t.
Why not?
Because these marches frighten people. That’s precisely what they’re designed to do, and always have done. It’s ‘terrorism’ at the most basic societal level, and it works.
🙁
Checkin’ in.
Lift time.
Cheers M.
Reset midnight.
Ian Brotherhood @ 11.55
It’s much worse than terrorism Ian.
It’s also an affront to music.
If they hiv been having band’s since 1690 (which I don’t believe fur a minute,but they believe it apparently)
How come there’s never ever been a musician of note,that learned his craft in an orange band.
Wonder how many finished up in the BBC philharmonic?
I don’t mind that naebody protests at them marching, something tells me that is exactly what they would want.
But somebody should tell the poor sods they canny play a tune
I suspect that’s the real reason everyone that follows the march is pissed,next time I get held up by them, I am going to keep an eye out to try to see if anyone who looks sober can hear!
Ian@11.55
You are bang on with what you say but we need to clarify one point. O’Hagan has been serving the British state for nigh on 30 years as an enemy of Scottish self-determination and a promoter of divide and rule on their behalf. He is not so much concerned with the freedoms of Catholics but with the hegemony of his paymasters in London.
Believe me on that one mate.
The simple fact is that half the population go on to higher education nowadays. Having been separated during their school years these people suddenly mix with people of the opposite “tribe”. They mix with people of other racial minorities.
They discover that your race, religion, sexuality, etc are irrelevant. They intermarry. They learn tolerance. And that cohort of educated people grows bigger each year. As older people die out to be replaced by the new younger tolerant educated people.
The bigotry which has blighted our society – and divide & rule is a feature of the British way of ruling its colonies – grows less and less relevant every year. It is dying out. It is really only an echo in the empty heads of ill educated thugs.
So if you see the faithful disturbing the peace this weekend, take a good look. Then look at the general population on the streets going about their business. The marchers are not a random group. They often look like they have health issues. They are not alas “that bonny”. They are the left behind in our increasingly cosmopolitan society. Pity them. They are being used by the Britnats. They are an endangered species. Like smallpox or polio. They are resisting, but they are doomed.
@Training Day –
Oh, I do believe you friend.
Believe me – I do believe you.
I also believe that similarly vaunted ‘Scottish’ authors such as Rowling and Rankin are mere vassals of The State.
Does O’Hagan lose any sleep over not being able to hang out with his Homies in Kilwinning? Nah, but it was good fodder for a lengthy diatribe in a Sunday supplement. Likewise, Rankin regularly traduces other Scottish authors who don’t ‘do’ genre work, as if they’re somehow devaluing his 30-yr-long mission to TaratnNoirise our culture.
And that’s without even a mention of J.K. and the magic web she has woven for the past two decades…
Blimey, I must sound ‘bitter’, eh?
Aye. I am. And angry as fuck about it.
In a ‘nice’ way, naturally.
🙂
@Ian 12.38
I hear you bud – anger unites us and it ain’t going away anytime soon. I would love to say more about O’Hagan here to exemplify an object lesson in why we shouldn’t believe a single word that emits from the Boswellian Jocks but I stray into litigious territory if I do..
Aye I agree Ian B but whit aboot Chris Brookmyre whose books are very west of Scotland and the earlier ones were very funny, although the latest ones have been much darker.
@Training Day –
🙂
Understood.
Come the day, many will be aquake with the sheer horror of the paradigm-shift required, and no pubescent magician or super-sleuth will help assuage the trauma.
In the meantime…we maun haud wur whisht.
More power tae ye.
🙂
@ Liz g
This is slightly ambiguous, in that it refers to a “fife and drum corps”, but maybe…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Galway
The music itself, as opposed to the rendition, is an interesting tradition (much of it pinched from the other side, of course, with suitably-altered tune titles), as documented here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fife-Drum-Memories-Customs-Tradition/dp/0856407097
That book’s author, Gary Hastings, whom I met a couple of times about 40 years ago , is an outstanding traditional flute player. He’s now a Church of Ireland clergyman (so not a presbyterian, which might be an important distinction) in Galway, but originates from Belfast. I’m not sure if he was in a band, but he’s definitely no bigot, and has made recordings with a Catholic priest who plays the fiddle. His background enabled him to conduct interviews for his research, though.
1st July ’17
Scotland, yeah, it’s like recognising and realising what you need to restore to yourself.
In Glasgow, many of the festivals we’ve previously held, were thereafter cancelled, demolished or moved location (and I guess that was under the previous administration.)
Glasgow, dae ye remember the…
* Glasgow River Festival.
* Glasgow Garden Festival fairground happy beautiful place (1988)
* Glasgow Festival.
* Proms on the Park (GG ~ and when it was libre)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_Garden_Festival
Saying that, some other good festivals a going on the now. The Merchant City fests are worth a shout and TRNSMT is CMNG. But gonnae bring back the above… thank you, please, and boats on ponds x.
http://trnsmtfest.com/
What say new administration…?
Glasg 😉 w’s Much Better.
Count Me In!