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The ultimate Scotlanding

Posted on October 20, 2019 by

So, almost a third of you are bloody idiots and we’ll just have to deal with that.

The good news is that at least there couldn’t be any unforeseen consequences.

But oh no! What’s this?

And let’s just spell it out, because some people are clearly a bit dim: if the above scenario materialises, the SNP will be in an alliance with the DUP to stop Brexit and kill independence.

The DUP? The Tories don’t sound quite so bad now, do they?

If there’s a vote on a second EU referendum, the SNP have painted themselves so completely into a corner they’ll have no choice but to vote for it. The parliamentary arithmetic is such that it would very likely pass.

So the first thing that would happen would be months more torture for all:

But that’s just the start. Polls suggest that while the majority of UK voters currently want Brexit to happen, they’d also vote Remain were there to be a new referendum. We wouldn’t want to bet any money on it, but it’s certainly highly possible that Remain would win and Brexit would be cancelled, having achieved nothing but years of ruinous damage to the economy and Britain’s standing in the world, and a toxic legacy of wholly justified hatred of all politicians that would take generations to heal.

(The alternative possibility, of course, being that Leave won again anyway and we had to – shudder – start the whole mess over again from scratch.)

We’re not at all clear who the government would be in this situation. It seems crazy to imagine that an administration bitterly opposed to a new referendum could be forced to spend months carrying it out. But it also seems wildly implausible that the opposition could agree on a “caretaker” PM who’d be in place for months rather than days.

The one thing we can say with absolute 100% unequivocal certainty, though, is that if a new EU referendum comes about there will be no indyref before 2021.

We knew this really anyway, of course, but organising and campaigning for a new EU referendum will take us into summer 2020, and since October is the last possible sane date for a new indyref before the next Holyrood election it would be completely and utterly inconceivable that it could be done in time even if everyone agreed to it.

More to the point, there’d be no defensible reason for it. As we’ve pointed out before, the SNP’s mandate for a second indyref is premised on Brexit. If Brexit is stopped, that mandate is gone. The UK government – whoever it was – would be acting entirely legitimately in refusing any Section 30 request, because the democratic justification for it would no longer exist. Any court challenge to a refusal would be starting out on very dodgy ground.

The SNP could of course stand in 2021 on a manifesto of renewing the mandate. But on what basis? The legitimate grievance of a forced Brexit we didn’t vote for would have been invalidated. Unionists could argue, fairly, that Scotland had been key in keeping the UK in the EU, and was a valued and important member of the United Kingdom whose voice mattered and made a difference.

So what would be the realistic prospects of a nation absolutely exhausted by (at that point) almost a full decade of constitutional wrangling and bitter division voting to start it all up again?

For a credible independence case from a general election, the SNP would need >50% of the vote. They couldn’t even (quite) achieve that in 2015, at the crest of a tsunami. Since then they’ve shed about a fifth of their support. They’re currently polling at around 41% for Holyrood constituencies and 37% on the list, which is a long way short, and are engaged in an apparent determined attempt to alienate as many voters as possible, whether it’s women over transgender issues or workers over a new parking tax, right down to anyone opposed to barbarically mutilating little puppy dogs.

The policy of devoting all its energy to forcing Remain on England and Wales against their wishes might be about to explode in the SNP’s face in the most catastrophic way imaginable. (Assuming, as we will here for the sake of argument, that the party is in fact still genuinely committed to achieving independence rather than just shoring up its own devolved power.)

A more spectacular example of Scotlanding it would be pretty difficult to dream up. Sometimes, the danger is the devil you didn’t see coming.

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      The ultimate Scotlanding | speymouth

    303 to “The ultimate Scotlanding”

    1. ClanDonald says:

      Don’t we also have a mandate based on a shift in opinion?

      If the UK votes to remain there will be riots on the streets of England and an even greater resurgence in right wing politics, alienating Scotland even further. The demand for independence can only increase.

      If the UK gov do refuse another indyref then surely the EU courts will swiftly confirm Scotland’s right to self determination under international law? (I hope…)

    2. Muscleguy says:

      Yup, pretty much this. After marching us up to the top of the hill post the Brexit result then leaving us stranded because Nicola was in a strop over the SNP’s comically misconceived GE campaign added to failing to defend the mandate for indyref2 in the face of The Ruth Davidson Party. Their voters in key seats stayed at home and big hitters hit the dole queues.

      Boo hoo. There would always be casualties in gaining Independence. A good leader should know this and carry on regardless.

      To pursue GRA in the face of public opposition is just witless. Why? to seem down with the kids and in touch with the zeitgeist? Where was the need not to scare horses for indyref2? I’m fecking scared. Well done that woman.

    3. Stoker says:

      I’d do a deal with the devil if i thought it would get us to indy. Can you just imagine the irony? The Tories doing a deal which will seemingly guarantee their cash-cow gets to bolt from its Westminster shackles. What’s not to like? Where do we sign?

    4. Bob Costello says:

      I think Stue there are some of us that did see it coming, last week I personally went through my second ever worst day of being called an asshole for having the temerity to suggest that the SNP should back the government on condition of section 30 being given and I think Wings went through a similar experience for stating the obvious.

      By the way, my worst day of being called an asshole from the SNP faithful was on the occasion I organised a”road map to independence” rally in 2016 and asked the SNP to speak on it and that was in Dundee the Yes City

    5. Joe says:

      I cant believe that anybody who supports Scottish independence could hold the idea that whatever happens to the Brexit vote wont happen to a positive indyref result. By not respecting the Brexit result you tie the noose by which Scottish independence will hang. You will all have deserved it also.

    6. Frank Waring says:

      One problem with this argument is that it equates a ‘Remain’ victory in a UK-wide democratic referendum with ‘…..forcing Remain on England and Wales against their wishes’.

    7. tartanfever says:

      I often wonder if the SNP believe that independence will only be won when the general population actually feels the effects of a hard Brexit rather than just the threat of it.

    8. Bob Mack says:

      I have no idea who is lead strategist for the SNP,
      but they should be sacked with immediate effect.

      This has been an omnishambles from beginning to end.
      Imagine voting with the DUP, the political wing of the UDA.

      That wil! go down wel! in the West of Scotland wont it?

    9. niall says:

      all the section 30’s and mandates in the world won’t solve the problem. a referendum where better together mk 2 can say “you are voting for a hard border with England” is unwinnable.

    10. HYUFD says:

      Even I as a Unionist would admit had the SNP joined the pro Brexit Tories and the DUP in March or again in voting against the Benn Act we could have gone to No Deal and a real chance of Scottish independence.
      Now the likely outcome is either the Boris Deal (and with a weary 52% of Scots wanting Brexit done now that would be acceptable) or extension and revoke or Remain.

    11. HYUFD says:

      https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/1184399764168859648?s=20

      Either way by allying with the LDs, Labour and Tory Europhiles to stop No Deal for the UK rather than just allowing it for England and Wales and pushing indyref for Scotland, the SNP have made a huge gaffe. The chance May never come again

    12. Effijy says:

      Rev,you have put us in front of a mirror that we don’t want to use, but I do see
      That we are floating in a sea of options that are corrupt and unpalatable.
      we must now grab The only lifebelt and leave the officers from the bridge to their own self inflicted destiny.

    13. Millsy says:

      Your logic seems pretty sound , Stu . However as far as Independence is concerned i don’t see it standing or falling by Brexit .
      Independence is far more than just the UK leaving/remaining in the EU. If you think that being dragged out of the EU was the only reason for a section 30 Order then I cannot concur . Personally , I believe that if that is refused ( whether Brexit happens or not ) then we take the route we should have taken all along – attack the Treaty which created the Union . It has been breached so often that it looks like a Swiss cheese !
      Take the fight to the courts !

    14. awizgonny says:

      What deal? If the Tories would have wanted a deal they would have asked for it. They didn’t need a deal. And they still don’t.

    15. ScotsRenewables says:

      I’m posting this without Nana’s permission, but wanted you – the rump who still bother with this site – to see it.

      Morning Nick,

      I’m a bit under the weather with a virus and after effects of hospital treatment.

      Well, I asked for folks to use the comments section while I was at my hospital appointment. Only two people bothered which reinforces my belief our efforts are not appreciated.
      Your own comment on Wings was ignored and so with that in mind I’ve decided to give it up. We tried our best, but I find it pretty sickening that the work we put in for free seems to be a waste of time. How are we meant to know if people are reading and sharing if they won’t even take time to comment and by now I’d hoped more wingers would have stopped by to show a little support.
      I have constant pain from deterioration in my wrist bones but I worked through that to provide daily links.
      I’ve been looking for some time to see if the page is being shared and in all this time I have only found one person (Petra) doing so. Norman was tweeting the link every morning to minimum response.

      After all this time sourcing links for wings and now here, people can easily find information for themselves as all the site links have been provided.
      We are going to work on projects in our own area in the hope an independence campaign begins soon. Thank you for the use of your site and perhaps someone will come forward to take over but somehow I doubt it. From past experience working on other projects, getting people to ‘do’ something to help the cause is not easy.

      Nana

      Personally, I’m sick of the lot of youse, pathetic squabbling losers, egoist fantasist and concern trolls alike. Look at Catalonia – that’s comittment. Scotland is pathetic, it deserves to be ground under the heel of Westminster. Only the SNP are even trying.

      If no-one wants to use it indyref2.space will be shut down.

    16. Sohail Bhatti says:

      Just a thought. Spain could veto Scotland’s membership, unless we absolutely too the fine line of legality. Don’t like it, but Westminster support for a Plebicite would overcome Spanish concerns. UN view is we just go for a general election mandating Independence. However, would have difficulties joining EU given Catalan issues…

    17. brewsed says:

      Yes, this is just stating the obvious; if there is a second EU referendum, remain may well win and, if it does, the current mandate for Indyfref2 falls. However, if this scenario does come to pass, Englandshire will start to tear itself to bits, possibly quite horribly, a scenario I would not really wish on anyone, but one which will do no harm to the independence movement and, just image the reaction of Englandshire, if the Scottish remain vote (and the Northern Irish one) tipped the balance.

      Popcorn futures anyone?

    18. ScotsRenewables says:

      BobMack you make me puke.

      At least HYUFD is honest.

    19. Alexander MacDonald says:

      What an absolute bore that you’ve turned into Stu.

    20. Bob Mack says:

      @Millsy,

      That is exactly what Stu has been advocating for the last two years.We have wasted that time by playing Englands game by Englands rules. Now to al! intents and puroses we are locked
      into that til! it plays out.
      What a waste.

    21. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      Puke away.

    22. Adrian B says:

      As we saw in the House of Commons yesterday several times the Conservatives treat the SNP with contempt by getting to their feet and leaving the chamber when Johanna Cherry got to her feet to ask a question.

      Jacob Rees-Mog then walked out when Patrick Grady got to his feet and started to ask a question.

      If you *think* Conservatives treating elected ministers with contempt guarantees a Section 30, then I don’t know what to say in response.

      As far as I am concerned, asking for a section 30 right now is a complete waste of energy. The General public in Scotland are not thinking about Independence in the number that you think are.

      We also know that our own side hasn’t been out on the streets working for Independence over the nice dry summer*

      *There are exceptions to this and its the same small band of better focused activists and well kent-faces that have kept basic events running.

      The Indy movement needs less armchair voices and more down to earth activism. This is YOUR Indy too, so get active and stop complaining that the SNP haven’t already done it all for you.

      Independence is for all of Scotland – get out there and work your little socks off, we will get a Referendum in time. But we win this BEFORE a date gets called and the Unionist Propaganda stats hitting hard.

    23. robert alexander harrison says:

      Brewsed we already got a taste of that the week of the supreme court with englanders hitting social media to tell us scots to fuck off because the supreme court for once ruled against England.

    24. Johnny says:

      Of course, people can always change their minds re the EU and their 2016 vote.

      However, I don’t see that anyone has won any kind of mandate to hold a second EU Referendum to this point. The Lib Dems ran on it in 2017, and were crushed.

      The justification would seem to be “IT’S ALL SUCH A BIG PANIC SO WE JUST HAVE TO TRAMPLE ALL OVER REQUIREMENTS TO HAVE A MANDATE!!!”.

      A few weeks ago, there was a talk of a General Election and had parties been standing on a manifesto pledge of 2nd EU Ref with Remain on the ballot, that’d have been fair. But they don’t want that now, because they suspect they would lose.

      So they won’t bother to try and collect a mandate.

      Meanwhile, the SNP can collect as many mandates as it likes, only to be told “tough luck, Jock, you’re not getting a referendum on independence!”

      It’s as hypocritical as fuck, and Yessers cheering it along have lost the plot.

      Now, I would state that had the rules at the beginning of the EU referendum process been set out to include a confirmatory vote from the beginning, then that would be fair. You’d have had a first stage which would have been a question of principle about staying in the EU (at which stage, the politicians should not have been bothering voters about how difficult something is to implement or not) and a second stage with a couple of implementation options when these had been considered.

      But the Tories didn’t want to do that, for fear it would make people think it was okay to vote Leave (and how did that work out?).

      So, no, it’s going to look like “cheating” to people who went into the process without being told of any later confirmatory vote. You can argue all day about whether it’s more sensible or not to hold a confirmatory vote, but it’s not going to change the fact that a substantial number of people are going to feel like it’s a ruse.

      If we have learned *anything* from all this nonsense, I’d like to think that when we become independent (whenever we actually get a chance now), we will write in an approved process for how we would run future referenda.

      In short, there is an initial question on principle, a later question on choices of implementation, and options that lost previously only get included whenever someone has won a mandate to include them at an election after the referendum.

    25. Colin Alexander says:

      Stu

      Is that you just realising the SNP are pro-devolution Unionists under Ms Sturgeon?

    26. Alan says:

      The lesson of the last few years is that most people don’t really change our minds once we make them up. All polls show a startling demographic skew between Yes/No, with No being sustained by mostly older voters.

      Stopping Brexit won’t “kill independence”. It only defers it by a handful of years – unless a bunch of old, spiteful Yes voters abandon the cause because it didn’t happen quickly enough for them.

      I cannot see the unionist parties making a genuine comeback anytime soon. They’re trapped in their respective niches. And the best thing? They did it to themselves! In 2017, they had a chance to bring in competent new faces. What did we end up with? Swinson & Jardine back. The Tories brought in a bunch of bad jokes(which they did in 2016 too). Labour’s dire – they replaced Dugdale with Boyack.

      You probably know them better than I do. Are any of them likely to become First Minister before the SNP provides a third holder of that office?

    27. ScotsRenewables says:

      It s the SNP or the gun, and it ain’t going to be the gun, Scotland lost the appetite for that over 200 years ago (thank fuck)

      You are all just so much hot air. Not one suggestion as to how PRACTICALLY achieve independence.

      Gum-bumping drivellers. All the good guys have left the site, does that not tell you something?

    28. Jock McDonnell says:

      Spain might threaten a veto on Scottish EU membership, its been suggested on HM BBC often enough. If they did so of course it might encourage & legitimise external interference in their own affairs. Not sure they would welcome that. Plus without Scotland in the EU, the North Sea is closed to Spain in large part.

      We must never be the prisoners of fear. The future is uncertain by definition, the only comfort is the power to decide & to act.

    29. ScotsRenewables says:

      Coco Boko

    30. defo says:

      It’s the DUP who have shifted position !

      Not that i’m for a re-run of 2016 mind.

      What’s increasingly bothering me, is who let in the creepy crawlies get into positions of power within the SNP?

    31. Adrian B says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      I am sorry to keep hearing stories like this, it has been damaging for some time, and seeing folk get worked up over a lack of a section 30 is hurting at ground level.

      Common sense has been thrown out of the window and acting like the Brexiteers is de rigueur, amplified and rewarded. If there is a reason that we don’t get Indy – then it isn’t because we don’t have a section 30 and will never be granted.

    32. Colin Alexander says:

      The Labour Party in Scotland are such Muppets that they cannae figure out that if they adopted the same -optional extra indyref based on s30 permission from WM – policy, there would be almost ZERO difference between them and the SNP.

      The SNP almost lost most of their seats in 2017. Corbyn Labour adopts indyref2 and the SNP are back to single figures at WM.

      And it will all be Sturgeon and her sheep’s fault.

    33. defo says:

      delete “in”

    34. Bob Mack says:

      @Alan,

      Old spiteful yes voters as you term it,in many cases have devoted their life to indy.I dont think they wil! change that for any reason.

      This is not about voting indy in any event .Its about how that comes about.Thig is the issue everybody disagrees on.

    35. hazelwoods says:

      This needs a wee bit longer to be checked for possible “No Deal Now” get out clause then let it pass. This will allow a Transition period. During that period there would be support from EU to hold an indyref2. Johnson and Co could happily let that proceed because it would take the eye off what they were up to.

      UK will assume that Brexit under The Deal will be complete by December 2020. This gives the indyref2 mandate. We get our YES vote and EU agree to a further transition period for Scotland while our membership is negotiated. We could still hold EU citizenship.

      We all know that Johnson is still hoping to get away with No Deal at the end of the Transition Period. Hell mend them, just let them get on with it. Out on Johnson’s deal with a transition period gives a little protection for Scotland. Not much, I know, but a little. And I have every faith that such a scenario has been discussed internationally and support will be there for a would be independent Scotland. Particularly one that has fought this right wing maniac government.

    36. Adrian B says:

      “The SNP almost lost most of their seats in 2017. Corbyn Labour adopts indyref2 and the SNP are back to single figures at WM.

      And it will all be Sturgeon and her sheep’s fault.”

      Aye, Colin – it is also 35 degrees C in the bright and sunny Borders today as it is everyday.

      Go and have a biscuit.

    37. Peter A Bell says:

      “More to the point, there’d be no defensible reason for it. As we’ve pointed out before, the SNP’s mandate for a second indyref is premised on Brexit. If Brexit is stopped, that mandate is gone.”

      Total shite. The mandate is not now, nor was it ever, predicated on Brexit. The mandate is predicated on ‘significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014’. Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will is mentioned only as an example of such ‘significant and material change’. The language is in no way vague or ambiguous. It is not open to reasonable misinterpretation. It says what it fucking says!

      No sane person can argue that there has not been ‘significant and material change’ since 2014 REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS WITH BREXIT.

      Besides which, the SNP ALWAYS has a mandate to pursue the restoration of Scotland’s independence by virtue of the fact that this aim is explicitly stated in the party’s constitution.

      The SNP has made some serious tactical errors. Among them, a narrative which too closely associates the independence cause with Brexit and painting itself into a corner with a commitment to the Section 30 process. But NOWHERE and NEVER has the SNP stated or implied that it’s mandate disappears if Brexit is stopped.

      If anybody wishes to dispute this, they may do so only with the hard evidence of an official statement by the party.

    38. Adrian B says:

      @Stoker’

      I’d do a deal with the devil if i thought it would get us to indy. Can you just imagine the irony? The Tories doing a deal which will seemingly guarantee their cash-cow gets to bolt from its Westminster shackles. What’s not to like? Where do we sign?

      Go and join your local Yes group, do something like talk to No voters, listen to them on Brexit, listen to them on Independence. Reassure them, give them some options to their concerns but above all be respectful.

      Try to engage again at a later date and listen, talk with them across various subjects. Allow them to move, many of them are at 2014 levels of scare stories, The Currency, Could Scotland afford to be Independent? What about the border?

      Listen to people, be someone that they can talk with.

      Don’t anyone dare slag off the SNP for failing to ask for a section 30 because that plays to the Unionist favour on the ground.

    39. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      “Al! the good guys have left the site”. Laughable.

      The people that have left are the quitters,the gullible,the SNP devotees whose belief is unshakable but misguided.

      The rest of us will carry on. Stick that in your pipe.

    40. Johnny says:

      Peter @ 12:45pm:

      Agree there. SNP should be going into all elections with manifesto pledges to pursue independence and (as you say) it’s in their constitution so people expect nothing less.

    41. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “One problem with this argument is that it equates a ‘Remain’ victory in a UK-wide democratic referendum with ‘…..forcing Remain on England and Wales against their wishes’.”

      Well, no.

      Currently public opinion in E&W is that they’d vote Remain if there was to be a second referendum, but what they actually WANT is for Brexit to be carried out now. There is no majority support for a second referendum. But if one was FORCED on people by Parliament, against their will, most would probably vote Remain in it because you don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.

    42. Simon Curran says:

      @Peter Bell
      Well said. Brexit is merely a symptom albeit a painful and big symptom. Why does Scotland need independence because it is not an equal union and the interests of Scotland will always be sacrificed to those of England.

    43. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “You are all just so much hot air. Not one suggestion as to how PRACTICALLY achieve independence”

      Actually two very clear, specific and practical suggestions. Neither of which are guaranteed successes, but which is still two more than you’ve come up with.

    44. Bob Mack says:

      @Peter A Bell,

      Maybe you need to remind the SNP of tnis ?.

      Stu I thknk is commenting on the situation as is, rather than what it should be.

    45. ScotsRenewables says:

      Peter Bell – well said.

    46. Colin Alexander says:

      Peter A Bell

      http://archive.is/yzzDS

      “Scotland’s independence referendum could be called off if Theresa May acts swiftly to offer a compromise, according to the SNP’s most senior figure in Westminster”.

      https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/national/15154146.angus-robertson-brexit-compromise-for-scotland-may-help-pm-avoid-new-referendum/

      “Angus Robertson told the Guardian his party’s priority was to protect Scotland’s membership of the European single market, and he was pressing the Prime Minister to offer a special deal to make this possible”.

      Also: “Mr Robertson told the Guardian: “There may only be days, may only be weeks, but where all of our efforts are currently focused is trying to convince the UK Government to come to a compromise agreement protecting Scotland’s place in Europe.

      “If that road runs out and if we have to have that referendum, we will be turning our attention to making sure that we are making the case publicly, intellectually and in every other way so people understand the choice of a hard Tory Brexit Britain or a Scotland able to maintain its relations with the rest of Europe.”

      That strongly implies the SNP have been willing to ditch indyref2 for stopping Brexit.

    47. mogabee says:

      I do hope you’re right Peter.

    48. ScotsRenewables says:

      Care to re-iterate those solutions, Stu?

      In words of one syllable for us misguided SNP fanboy idiots?

    49. Auld Rock says:

      I would gently point out the bleedin obvious, yesterdays march through London by up to a million people was all very peaceful and civilized and I personally see nothing wrong with a little ‘verbal’ barracking. After all, if it had been a few hundred years ago and they were leaving the old Scottish Parliament they would have had to endure a severe ‘pebbling’.

      Now switch your thoughts to Barcelona or Hong Kong and several others that sadly show what happens when governments get above themselves and ignore the people. Just think how that march yesterday might have turned out – remember the ‘Poll Tax’ riots???

      I’m not advocating violence in any shape, size or form but only pointing out that even long, slow-burning fuses eventually go ‘BANG’.

    50. Mist001 says:

      Like it or not, Brexit is happening in less than two weeks time. What the fuck makes Sturgeon and the rest think they have time to stop it now?

      So, why are they still trying? They had the golden opportunity yesterday to obtain a section 30 but didn’t bother because they still think they can stop Brexit in UNDER two weeks!

      Are they deliberately dense or are they behaving in a more sinister manner?

      Sturgeon KNOWS full well that her strategy was completely wrong and that she, Blackford and the rest fucked up monumentally yesterday. That’s why she’s in the papers this morning telling the gullible yet again ‘Don’t worry, independence is coming.’

      They need to be run out of Holyrood and Blackford? Who’s going to pull him up over his ‘We won’t allow Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against it’s will’? It’s going to happen and he’ll just behave as if nothing has changed.

      Just last week on here, I showed that I was willing to cut the SNP some slack but not now, not after yesterday. They’re taking independence supporters for mugs and the majority of independence supporters are so thick, they’re allowing themselves to be taken for mugs when really, they should be up in arms about this and marching on Bute House in protest.

      Talking of protest, I hope people have been taking note of Catalonia. They’re showing Scotland how to do protest marches properly, none of this AUOB shite. Another thing, there are plenty of photos and drone footage from Catalonia, no need to photoshop the evidence like they do in Scotland to try and convince people that the marches are bigger than they actually are.

      I’m not seeing many Scottish saltires in the Catalonian footage either.

      The independence ‘movement’ (it doesn’t actually do much moving) is an absolute shambles in Scotland, it really is, taken for a ride by the charlatan Sturgeon and her cronies and falling for it EVERY time.

      I’m fucking furious and disgusted. I was embarrassed after Scotland turned down the chance of independence in 2014, the only time in my life that I’ve been ashamed to be Scottish but frankly, events since then have just become more embarrassing.

      And you get pricks on here bleating about how the Rev should tone down his ‘attacks’ on the SNP simply because he’s not fooled by them either and is telling the truth. Snowflakes stamping their feet because they don’t like to hear the truth and flouncing off, ‘never to return’.

      A line in the sand was drawn for me yesterday and if anyone’s serious about achieving independence, the line should have been drawn for them too.

    51. winifred mccartney says:

      The major problem with this scenario is that a tory promise for a S30 is worthless. Change of leader/govt and it is no longer valid.

    52. Colin Alexander says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell

      You’re criticising the SNP with their indyref based on permission from WM but doing a Brexit deal for s30 is basically just as bad or worse. As they both come down to putting Scotland’s independence in the hands of the enemy.

      I believe your other suggestion is: Declare indy first then hold indyref.

      That makes more sense. In fact, it’s a very good idea. It’s how Norway and Latvia democratically achieved EU and internationally recognised independence.

    53. Colin Alexander says:

      ScotsRenewables

      I’ve said them in my comment.

    54. Johnny says:

      Well, Winifred, that’d be an issue with a government of any hue at Westminster.

    55. ScotsRenewables says:

      ‘Declare Indy first’

      Aye, with no popular support, no mandate and no legal basis in international law.

      Moronic idea. Or tractorus. You choose.

    56. Bob Mack says:

      @Mist 001,
      The line in the sand was drawn two years ago. How !ong can fruxtration endure. Who knows, but everythjng has a breaking point.

      Wh at we see now on Wings is exactly that playing out.
      Some advise holding the line whilst others want go forge ahead and use the opportunities presented now. The result is disharmony even though we all want the same thing

      Eventually the patient will too ,become impatient as this takes its course at the present rate.

      That I will guarantee.

    57. Capella says:

      @ ScotsRenewables – so sad to hear that Nana is not well and also disappointed in the response to her posts on your site. I admit to being one of the culprits who didn’t leave a comment and didn’t visit on a regular basis. I have spent most of my online time on this site and loved to see her links here.

      There are a lot of regulars who have now left the site. The regular attacks on the SNP, atl and btl undoubtedly put people off. Me too.

      I persist in the hope that a campaign mode will resume. For that, we need the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon at the forefront of the fight. There is nothing that would please the unionists more than to see Nicola and the SNP lose support and I have no doubt that their efforts are going into bringing this about.

      I’m stubborn enough to ignore the siren calls.

    58. defo says:

      Winifred
      Once the process is started, who’d dare try to stop it?
      What a recruiter for Yes that would be!

    59. Colin Alexander says:

      ScotsRenewables

      The SNP manifesto until 2000 was Scotland taking control FOLLOWED by an indyref, both following the election of a majority of SNP MPs.

      Ms Cherry has re-iterated it only takes a democratic event.

      Only Sturgeon says it must be indyref s30. She gives no legal basis for this. Just talks about it being the “legal” way.

    60. Helen Yates says:

      I believe that Independence stopped being the goal of the party the day Alex Salmond stood down.

    61. ScotsRenewables says:

      There are no new opportunities, no new route to independence. Any form of UDI, any non-sanctioned referendum, is a recipe for disaster and would Bury the cause for years. Which is of course what you want.

      We are on the verge of getting somewhere, and all these sleepers appear An absolutely classic operation by the British state.

    62. Mist001 says:

      @ Helen Yates

      I agree.

    63. Jock McDonnell says:

      It might be an idea if the SNP did play coy about supporting a 2nd Brexit ref this week. Something to generate enough headlines. Something where they could be ‘blamed’ by brexiteers if the SNP eventually vote for a 2nd Brexit ref.

      Of course – a 2nd referendum is not a given & there is much argument to be had. What would the question be for example ? Deal, No Deal, Remain ? Why should the SNP support a blank slate ?

      Blackford should give no guarantees of what he will support. We often sell the jersey too easily in this country. Make a big feckin fuss, that’s what the Irish do, on both sides.

    64. ScotsRenewables says:

      ‘Democratic Event’…. Well, yes, as long as at least 51% of Votes are cast for it. On a reasonable turnout, and on a single-issue campaign.

      No sign of voters being ready to support this.

    65. Davie Oga says:

      All it would take to unite everyone in the independence movement and a majority of Scottish people is for the SNP leadership is to say enough and announce a date for a referendum.

    66. ScotsRenewables says:

      Mist001 says:
      20 October, 2019 at 1:25 pm
      @ Helen Yates

      I agree.

      Aye right. And where did you two little Yoon sweeties come from I wonder? Not seen either of you here before.

      Strange.

    67. Breeks says:

      Jesus H. Christ. I despair.

      If the Scottish Government would simply raise the saltire ensign and declare to Westminster and Brussels that Scotland was rejecting Brexit on Constitutional grounds. An intrinsic part of that Constitution is already in action, Scots Law, which has already held Westminster to account three times now. Where are you, our Government???

      I appeal to you Nicola, raise that ensign and give Scotland a mainsail where everybody can set aside their differences and squabbles and start pulling together in one direction like we did in 2014. This idle bickering is YOUR fault, it is your enigmatic procrastination which has bred stagnation and exasperation wherever you’ve gone, and it doesn’t matter whether that was the intention, stagnation and exasperation has been the result. Bring an end to it.

      We can still, even now, secure our future as an Independent Nation by using the injustice of Brexit to clobber Westminster under the proverbial ton of Constitutional bricks, paralyse their resistance to the Constitutional omnipotence of Scotland’s LAWFUL sovereignty.

      Give us all a common progressive objective. Not more Peoples Vote filibustering. Not some pissy, wishy washy Referendum we need to bargain for, but red line, deadlines whereby Westminster either bows to the sovereign will of the Scottish people and acknowledges Scotland will NOT be Brexited, OR the bipartite Union Treaty of the UK is deemed to be dissolved. Red line deadline Boris, and there’s no bung big enough.

      Yes, we will have our democracy respectfully served, but AFTER this national emergency, AFTER we have made safe the Nation from colonial usurpation of Scotland’s Sovereignty, we will hold a plebiscite and offer our people a smorgasbord of constitutionally sound options on how we wish to proceed as a Nation.

      We need not fear a democratic resurrection of the Union, because a dead treaty cannot be resurrected. God forbid we would ever want it, such a Union would require new negotiation with England from scratch. ‘Good’ luck to any mad fool trying that.

      Give us leadership Nicola. Give us that tall ship Mainsail which all of Scotland can fill with hopes and aspiration, as a precursor to the assured Constitutional emancipation and Sovereign Independence for Scotland. You could end all our bickering and remove the heat from this bubbling cauldron of dissent and acrimony. But you’ve got to ACT lassie!

      We MUST lodge a Constitutional defence of our Nation, and use Scotland’s Sovereign Constitution to defeat Brexit, and/or tear the Union apart trying.

      We are so close to realising our Independence, yet I fear in my heart you can empty the wind from our sails as fast as we can fill it. Come on Nicola, make the right choice, cry havoc and let slip Joanna Cherry. They won’t turn their backs and walk away. They’ll run.

    68. ScotsRenewables says:

      I expect the date to be included in the forthcoming S30 request

    69. Adrian B says:

      For all the lost souls that cannot fathom why the SNP is still fighting for Scotlands place in the EU, Here is the SNP EU Election manifesto for May 2019:

      https://www.snp.org/eu/

      This is clearly a large part of their thinking in any future Independence campaign given that Brexit is wrapped up around Scotland leaving the EU against Scots voters will.

      The SNP are not fighting to keep England in the EU as much as shaping the version of Brexit that does least damage to England, Wales and Northern Ireland because that defines borders and trade/travel telecommunications and all of Westminster’s existing responsibilities even when we do get Independence.

      We will not become Independent the day after a vote takes place, there will be a period of discussion and talk about the divorce procedure and who gets what/ who pays for what. This period was thought to be possible in about 18 months in 2014, but If the UK keeps the existing 2 year transition period before they are out, then there will actually be minimal damage to see in this two year time frame – that isn’t great if you thought that a sharp cliff edge would bring folk to support Indy.

      Once we vote for Indy we will likely have a two or three year period before Scotland can really say that we are once again a the fully Independent country of Scotland.

      It is our transition period that for us, we will still be in the UK and Brexit will still apply to us and any damage through harsh policy due to brexit will impact on the people and business of Scotland.

    70. Colin Alexander says:

      ScotsRenewables

      If Sturgeon came out with majority of snp mps AND 51% of the popular vote for straight declaration of indy, that would be a fair compromise, but she wont’t.

      S30 is her gold standard line.

    71. ScotsRenewables says:

      Breeks,

      In case you hadn’t noticed, Scotland does not have an internationally recognised constitution.

      Sick of your overblown crap as well.

    72. ScotsRenewables says:

      Coco,

      Didn’t notice anyone had called an election.

      Polls not showing anything like 50% for the SNP at the moment. Without a step-change it would fail.

    73. Bob Mack says:

      @Scotsrenewables,

      Classic operation by the Britixh State ? No. Its ckassic difference of opinion only on the way forward.

      You so uncertain that anybody questioning your views must be an agent of some kind.

      Please dont join a debating club. Its not for you believe me.

    74. Mist001 says:

      Sturgeon should have been sitting in Bute House this morning with a written AND SIGNED section 30 order to be held within a specific time frame.

      Instead she’s grubbing about hoping for a second Brexit referendum, doing deals with the DUP and the rest. It’s a fucking shambles.

      I cannot express how furious I am.

      Mind that couple that won all those millions on the lottery and gave a million to the SNP to help achieve independence? I bet they won’t be so foolish with their money in the future, they were fucking scammed by the SNP.

      There is an URGENT need for an alternative independence party in Scotland and I don’t mean the Wings idea, because this shower of shits couldn’t deliver the fucking milk, let alone anything big. Nobody could do worse than the SNP, put it that way.

    75. awizgonny says:

      You’re still all arguing on a scenario predicated on something that will never happen. The Tories don’t need a deal. If they did they would have made the overtures, and we would have heard about it one way or they other.

    76. ScotsRenewables says:

      Good post AdrianB

      Common sense observations.

    77. Mist001 says:

      @ ScotsRenewables

      How about you fuck off with you ‘Yoons’ shite, you gullible fucking idiot?

    78. Adrian B says:

      @Breeks,

      Not going to happen. It is a democratic vote that the SNP seek from the people of Scotland that says that the people of Scotland vote to be Independent.

      “I appeal to you Nicola, raise that ensign and give Scotland a mainsail where everybody can set aside their differences and squabbles and start pulling together in one direction like we did in 2014. This idle bickering is YOUR fault, it is your enigmatic procrastination which has bred stagnation and exasperation wherever you’ve gone, and it doesn’t matter whether that was the intention, stagnation and exasperation has been the result. Bring an end to it.”

      Nicola has always said that she will act once the details of Brexit are known. The UK Government are intent on changing the date to add to confusion. If the original March 2019 date had been met, then we would all be further down the road.

      See SNP policy on Europe at the May 2019 election for SNP policy.

    79. Bill Hume. says:

      I think you are being a little harsh to those who would turn down a deal like this.

      Reason? Like me I just would not trust the Tories to keep to any deal.

      Frankly, you can’t trust the lying bas***ds.

    80. Colin Alexander says:

      Correction: 50% +1 of popular vote for pro-indy candidates at GE.

    81. SilverDarling says:

      @Helen Yates

      I agree. I think the FM felt she wanted to carve out her own strategy and distance herself from him personally. She took the slow cautious route hoping that No would be won over gradually. Independence would come along by itself if the SNP could just stay in power long enough.

      Unfortunately events got in the way.

      As for any of the other strategists in the SNP at present. Well, Ross Colquhoun admits to being one…

    82. Colin Alexander says:

      ScotsRenewables

      The SNP don’t seek a mandate for indy at General Elections, they seek a mandate to have a Strong Voice at Westminster and to support British Labour.

      Who’s to say what level of support they would get if indy mandate ONLY was the SNP manifesto.

    83. Colin Alexander says:

      Scotsrenewables

      And please stop the trolling insults

      you’re disgracing the indy movement with such childish conduct.

    84. Tatu3 says:

      I visit nana’s links most days, there are always a few that are interesting reads.
      I didn’t know to comment so apologies there.
      The infighting on here is just unbelievable. The only people benefiting from it is the anti independence side.
      When you read up on Scottish history it seems to be a very Scottish thing though – infighting.
      The SNP are not perfect, but they are our only official way out of the uk.
      I don’t understand what Stu is up to, but he no longer appears to be fighting for independence. This is what NS actually said:

      “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

      Quite clearly says “if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people…..or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014.
      Brexit was ONLY used as an example.

    85. Effijy says:

      I’d like to apologise to Nana who has been a revelation over the years
      Her commitment and dedication in supporting independence has been inspiring

      I foolishly thought Nana’s latest finds were all being forwarded here to Wings.

      I love this lady and she will never be forgotten.
      I’m sure future generations of an independent Scotland will marvel at her endeavours.

      We all must stick together as our Oil revenue is used to promote propaganda
      And disruption to our cause.
      The papers, TV, Radio the 77th brigade and whatever name the underground Cambridge Analytics use are costing vast sums but no limit on expenditure if if it keeps Scottish revenues in their pocket

    86. Bob Mack says:

      @Tatu,

      Infighting on here ?

      Perhaps you need to read how factions in the SNP tried to have one of our shining lights Joanna Cherry deselecfed from her seat.

      Perhaps you need to read Angus MacNeills twitter feed where he is baffled by the SNP strategy of leaving tnings to get to this state.
      Perhaps you should read about the placement of people determined to push through GRA without proper cnsultation.

      Wings is not the problem. Its only a symptom of the problem. Leadership nedds clear polular messages. They are failing in that remit.

    87. Colin Alexander says:

      The SNP, the evidence indicates, were offering a deal to Theresa May to completely drop indyref2 for EU Single Market / Customs Union membership.

      The SNP already betrayed their election manifesto by doing that.

      They also betrayed sovereign Scotland’s vote to Remain full members of the EU.

      There’s no doubt, the SNP have prioritised British Brexit over Scottish sovereignty and Scottish independence.

    88. IndyCrone says:

      Agree to all you say! Turns out the party I thought we’re for independence are really revolutionised or devo maxers. Their lack of engagement and direction on this is shameful.

    89. John says:

      With the language now on this site it is extremely clear to the old guard this site is now nothing more than a Yoon playground .All serious contributors are leaving and you are left with the dregs , barring a few diehards and it won’t be long before they go . So , SIU job done , magnificent trolling , Stu you have created a monster ! .

    90. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      I wil! hold my nose and vote for them anyway, if only to keep my own dream alive. I hope anothef Indy party is started soolner rather than later.

    91. Bob Mack says:

      @John

      People actually disagree sith your world view? Shameful

    92. Breeks says:


      ScotsRenewables says:
      20 October, 2019 at 1:34 pm
      Breeks,

      In case you hadn’t noticed, Scotland does not have an internationally recognised constitution.

      Sick of your overblown crap as well.

      Ok smart arse. Where does Scots Law get it’s authority from then? Please enlighten the congregation.

    93. HandandShrimp says:

      Given this is Brexit something else will happen…as would seem to be the tradition of Brexit.

      Gove appears to believe we are crashing out on No Deal in 10 days time. If that happens there will be a No Confidence vote and an early election. Unfortunately Boris could, despite the Tories getting the boot in Scotland and Wales, win in England and have a majority. If that happens it will be a serious constitutional pickle. Labour will have one of their night of the long knives and we have to hope that Boris’ majority is tight enough to make the thought of Scotland in some looser arrangement attractive. If he has a comfortable majority I could see him parking tanks on the Holyrood lawn.

    94. stuart mctavish says:

      “Sturgeon should have been sitting in Bute House this morning with a written AND SIGNED section 30 order”

      Alternatively she could have had it printed on front page of daily record under the promising headline, BJs Vow.

    95. John says:

      Bob Mack
      I could have put a big bet on that you would be the first to reply , happy trolling !

    96. Breeks says:


      Adrian B says:
      20 October, 2019 at 1:40 pm
      @Breeks,

      Not going to happen. It is a democratic vote that the SNP seek from the people of Scotland that says that the people of Scotland vote to be Independent.

      Tell me Adrien B, in what conceivable way would such a referendum be in any way impinged if it was first underwritten by the secure and formal acknowledgement that the people are sovereign? Because I can promise you a Referendum occurring after Sovereignty has been forfeited or conceded by default, will count for absolutely nothing.

    97. mogabee says:

      The only reason that folk are attacking Stu is because they do not want truths to be discussed and debated.

      The SNP began by taking us in a dangerous direction with GR reform and when folk started questioning this aspect they realised that the party was not listening, not standing up for women and seemed not to be taking us to indy either.

      Instead of shouting down Wings why don’t we wait until it’s too late before having our say… (sarcasm)

    98. Artyhetty says:

      Not had time to read many comments yet, but in the event of a second Brexit referendum ( they can have another one, Scotland, back in your box lolz), the UK English government will go to town on Scotland with bells on.

      They will punish Scotland like no one ever experienced before by god will they. Look at how they have treated SNP MP’s even yesterday. I still think that most of the people of England will NOT thank Scotland or empathise, or support Scotland when things go t**s up and Scotland becomes a third world country, with their English army on our streets, and every single drop of our oil, our water, and every single gram of our gold is removed from Scotland.

      North Britain, occupied, terrorised, and wrecked as a functioning country. The EU, and all those nice people in England thanking Joanna Cherry yesterday and cheering at parkiament square, ‘yeah!!!!’ will turn a blind eye to the likely destruction of Scotland, massive loss of jobs and damage to our economy.

      It’s quite often the case those that care the most and work fiercly for fairness and equality especailly for their neighbours, come off worst. The way people see it, the good folk facilitating a good outcome, are secondary, and are quickly forgotten. Scotland needed to look after number one, just like everyone else does. The Scottish cringe is alive and well sadly.

      Scotland will be forgotten. The forgotten land, very depressing.

    99. Bob Mack says:

      @Breeks,

      Bravo sir,bravo. Game ,set and match

    100. Adrian B says:

      For those that think that a twitter poll about doing a deal with the Tories or the DUP is in any relevant, please explain why the conservatives leave the chamber of the HoC when Johanna Cherry stands up to talk.

      If you think that this level of respect clinches a section 30 for the Scottish government, then you a being deceitful.

      A Section 30 isn’t forthcoming from BJ and his Government right now because they don’t need nor want SNP support.

    101. Bob Mack says:

      @John,

      Then at least you could have won at something.

    102. Artyhetty says:

      Damn typos, serves me right for being so negative, or is realistic I never know.

    103. Adrian B says:

      Breeks,

      In which manifesto is this sovereignty that you talk of.

    104. cirsium says:

      Rev – I don’t think that the UK government of whatever establishment party is agreement-capable. What is more to the point is the Scottish government accelerating its referendum legislation. The right of self-determination is not a prerogative of states but an inalienable right of peoples, collectively and individually.

    105. John says:

      Bob mack
      What s child of Boris you are .

    106. Bob Mack says:

      @John,

      Posxibly. He did get zbout.

    107. Adrian B says:

      mogabee says:

      “The only reason that folk are attacking Stu is because they do not want truths to be discussed and debated.”

      Its about the section 30 order and why we are not getting one. There is plenty getting debated.

    108. lurking idiot says:

      Stu, I know you’ve probably gathered this by now but you can’t just ignore that doing a deal with the tories on this scale would be political suicide for the SNP. The strategy would only be successful in a vacuum where peoples ill feeling towards the tories had been completely removed. Unfortunately that will never happen because people don’t function like that, they can’t just turn off their emotions and ignore the hypocrisy of it.

      I’m not denying the logical nature of the strategy but people are illogical and you can’t just wish away the stigma of doing a deal with the tories. It’s like a mountain on the geography of the political battlefield, you need to accept that it’s immovable and work around it. It’s hard enough trying to persuade people at this point to vote for independence nevermind trying to suddenly convince them that doing deals with tories is fine and dandy now, especially after the SNP have spent decades (rightly so in most cases) building them up as the devil incarnate. It’s a rule that’s already been long set in stone.

      Just look at how long it’s taken the Lib Dems to even slightly recover from alliance with the tories. It’s not an option that bears fruit.

      And I have to add that it’s really meaningless all these people saying they’d do a deal with the devil if it could deliver independence. It’s fine for YOU maybe but as we’ve already seen from the rough twitter poll, not everyone is willing to sell their soul and that will likely always be the case. These particular political attitudes are just too entrenched.

      No offence but this idea always seemed like a dead end to me, I don’t understand how you even got to the stage of putting it forward as some practical possibility. It’s not something the tories would even offer the SNP as it’d be too toxic from their perspective as well. Working with a party dedicated to breaking up the precious United Kingdom? Forget it. Too many of their voters would hate it.

    109. Breeks says:


      Adrian B says:
      20 October, 2019 at 2:22 pm
      Breeks,

      In which manifesto is this sovereignty that you talk of.

      Declaration of Arbroath 1320. Ratified by the Pope and Dowager Queen Isabella in the 1328 Treaty of Edinburgh/Northampton.

      It’s not a manifesto. It’s a Sovereign Constitution, with contemporary International Recognition.

    110. cirsium says:

      @Adrian B, 2.19

      Good point. Think of the walk-outs on Ian Blackford. During the debates after the Smith commission, the MPs of the establishment parties did not bother to debate any SNP amendment and only streamed into the House of Commons to vote against them.

    111. Famous15 says:

      What do you call a collection of concern trolls?

      A yoonery?

    112. Graeme says:

      John says:
      20 October, 2019 at 2:04 pm

      “With the language now on this site it is extremely clear to the old guard this site is now nothing more than a Yoon playground .All serious contributors are leaving and you are left with the dregs , barring a few diehards and it won’t be long before they go . So , SIU job done , magnificent trolling , Stu you have created a monster ! .”

      —————————————————————-

      I don’t remember you as being one of the “old guard” although you’ve maybe been a lurker like me, so do you think Stu should give up this site and quit blogging ?

    113. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous15,

      Your fitting for a tinfoil hat is scheduled for Tuesday

      Regzrds
      Bacofoil

    114. Andy smith says:

      John,
      Yeah, seems to be that as polls swing more and more towards yes, the snp come under more attacks from”independence ” surporters on this site who’ve never posted before.

    115. Proud Cybernat says:

      Aye Rev – the FM might have extracted an S30 order from BawJaws. But look closer FM – he hasn’t bloody signed it.

      NEVER. TRUST. A. TORY.

      The right moment for the FM to act decisively will come. There’s nothing more certain. But it’s not there – yet.

    116. John Silver says:

      Stu.
      The SNP would not be “voting with” the DUP any more than the DUP would be “voting with” the SNP.
      They would both be voting against a Tory government that has no credibility.
      Do you seriously think that enabling Boris’s Brexit will have no electoral consequences for the SNP? It would certainly lose them my vote.
      While there is the slimmest of chances that Brexit can be stopped, that is what the SNP should work towards, both because it is the right thing to do & also because if Scotland were to become independent & join the EU, the road to independence will be much easier if the rUK is in the EU too. You may have noticed recently that trying to avoid a border in an island with one country in the EU & the other outside is a wee bit difficult!

    117. Mist001 says:

      @ Andy smith

      That because you don’t pay attention. If you did, you’d find quite a lot of information about me in particular on previous posts and threads.

      The funny thing is that I have my avatar on public display for all to see whereas the ones that whine about new posters, don’t. Something to hide, perhaps?

      If you spent more time scrutinising the actions of Sturgeon and the SNP instead of looking for ‘Yoons’, independence might get somewhere.

    118. jfngw says:

      Complicity comes cheap here, only a referendum, even the DUP had better ambitions for a deal with the Tories.

      I believe the quote in the manifesto was a change of circumstances, I think there is more than just Brexit that has changed since 2016, including the removal of the Scottish Parliaments powers. So a request now doesn’t just sit with Brexit, whether the SNP will use this route I’m not sure but if they don’t achieve a referendum by the end of next year they have effectively failed. It may then be time for a more radical independence party.

    119. Bob Mack says:

      @Andy Smith,

      If, you can be bothered to look back you wil! find most have had posts over a long long time. If you can be bothered that is

    120. Andy smith says:

      Mist
      It is …50% in polls ?

    121. Adrian B says:

      Breeks says:

      “Declaration of Arbroath 1320. Ratified by the Pope and Dowager Queen Isabella in the 1328 Treaty of Edinburgh/Northampton.”

      It’s not a manifesto. It’s a Sovereign Constitution, with contemporary International Recognition.”

      It is from 1320, but it shouldn’t really feature in winning over no voters from 2014 – which is where our priority needs to focus. The Arbroath march will be popular due to its timing and significance. it really isn’t a vote winning point for those that had their reasons to vote no in 2014. They need more basic assistance on the same 2014 questions.

      We don’t win the next indref by either talking only to ourselves and letting ANY political party do ALL the campaigning.

      Join a local yes group and listen to previous no voters worries and concerns, assist with *some* possible options and set them on their own journey away from unionism and in the direction of at least accepting an Indy Scotland as being a reasonable option that most of Scotland can get behind.

      When we move enough of these folk away from the Union that they thought existed, then we start gathering greater more powerful direction of momentum – even before Nicola gets a chance of announcing a date.

      If we all put in the work, then we all reap the rewards.

    122. Colin Alexander says:

      How are people on here unable to debate political opinions without resorting to slagging each other?

      Am I back at Primary School?

    123. Balaaargh says:

      Fair few folk today need to wind their neck in, calm down, take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

      Don’t engage with the trolls. Don’t engage with posters you think are trolls, just because they have a different opinion doesn’t make them wrong or less committed to Indy.

      Personally, I’m taking Rev’s piece today with a pinch of salt. It’s an opinion piece, his opinion, and I disagree with it. He gets to say it, I get to disagree with it. For starters, twitter polls are not a reliable source of polling information. 🙂

      All the blethering in WM is not going to change the two critical facts:

      1) We leave on the 31st October by law. That’s eleven days, a week on Thursday. Gove has already announced Operation Yellowhammer is kicking in. The more amendments and the more debate that happens wastes time and increases the chances of being out. A good filibuster by Rees-Mogg and his pals in the lords and that’s it, we wake up after Halloween out of the EU.

      2) There is no guarantee of the EU agreeing. That’s 27 other governments who all have to say yes – again. 27 coins to toss and get the same result. Maybe they’ll come back tomorrow and say “Sure, take your time to get the legal bit done. We’re going nowhere” or maybe they’ll wait until 10PM on the 31st having watched WM tear itself apart and had a good laugh before saying, “you know what, we’re bored now. See you later.”

      We are in unprecedented times. Anything can happen. At this point, probably literally anything could happen including the Thatcher and Churchill statues in WM being possessed by their ghosts and slugging it out in the lobby about what to do.

      The utter shitshow about Brexit continues to feed the fire of Indy. There are still too many “what if’s” to say the SNP is hemmed in or has lost.

    124. Liz g says:

      Famous 15 @ 2.34
      LOL… Good one.
      And they think we’ve all gone away!
      It’s going to be quite the thing to reclaim this space when the campaign starts.

    125. awizgonny says:
      20 October, 2019 at 1:37 pm
      You’re still all arguing on a scenario predicated on something that will never happen. The Tories don’t need a deal. If they did they would have made the overtures, and we would have heard about it one way or they other.
      ———————

      Maybe the most sensible comment in the thread. I support Stu’s proposal, but it simply isn’t going to happen.

      Brexit is never going away, even if there was a second referendum, which I doubt. The Tory press would’t allow it, and too many down south obey those papers. Whichever way Johnson’s deal goes, English politics for the next decade will remain in its current Brexit quagmire. The only thing that might end it is full-blown fascism.

      All of which means that indy is never going away until it’s finally achieved.

      Good to see Neil Mackay and AUOB talking mass civil disobedience now. That’s Plan C, and it will have nothing to do with the SNP.

      In the meantime, I’m off with my crew to stick up copies of indyposterboy’s posters on some trains.

    126. Artyhetty says:

      Re;Balaaargh@3.07

      Good comment. Things are changing by the hour.

      Trying not to despair too much, yet!

      Have a good Sunday all, and let’s stand together!
      🙂

    127. Bob Mack says:

      If anybocy needs reminding then look at Chrus Cairns cartoon. “The Candle” he printed on this site after the referendum.I cried that morning al! over again.

      Remember how you felt then because I most certainly do.

      I wil! never feel that way again. I want to believe but I need proof that the battle is being fought and p!anned just as hard by our leadership. I think it isnt. Thats all

    128. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If you’re planning to attend the Friends of WOS gathering in Glasgow next week, please give us a heads-up on O/T.

      Just need a rough idea of numbers so that Ronnie doesn’t have to humph too many sausage rolls.

      😉

    129. Papko says:

      I have never claimed to be an Independence supporter, but its obvious to me, that Sturgeon has no appetite for Indyref2 because she knows it fail.
      Look at the GE results in 2017 and half a million (SNP Voters) did not turn up.
      For whatever reason, maybe they don’t vote often, changed to other parties or apathy set in.
      But You don’t want to set off on a campaign when you need 2 million votes realistically (to win indyref2).
      Brexit has already shown that its almost impossible to enact real change when half the country oppose you, so how are the Mckay Sweeney and Cunningham going to cope under similar duress?

      Sturgeon knows she has the AUOB marchers and the “activists” to placate and she must somehow keep them on board and her powder dry, when they are spoiling for a fight.
      So she bangs the table and knows that it will never be granted, knows she will never pursue other means, and hopes that Indy can be forgotten about, and she can somehow keep her high profile job in the media spotlight.

    130. Shug says:

      If I pay a fine with a cheque but dont sign it am I ok
      Am I holding two fingers up at the court
      Now we will see if scottish judges are men of substance or wimps

    131. James says:

      Another poll. ?

    132. James says:

      Who carries out these polls? Or are you just making it up?

    133. Graham says:

      I agree that too much time has been spent playing by Westminster establishment ‘rules’.

      I feel the SNP has a divided membership and therefore an inconsistent/incoherent strategy. It seems a proportion of its members are not committed to independence (at least, not as their priority). I even wonder if some proportion of its members are members for the very purpose of diluting the party’s focus on, and drive towards, achieving independence?
      Certainly trying to please all its members and voters is not only impossible for its leadership and strategists but must drastically weaken party resolve and effectiveness in pursuing that goal.

      Westminster notwithstanding, there have been repeated popular and Holyrood mandates to pursue independence. I think the SNP should bite the bullet: stand Holyrood candidates on an unequivocal manifesto of /declaring/ independence (not just asking for a Section 30 order to hold a referendum) within the new Holyrood term.
      And it should be prepared to ditch any members and former voters who don’t like that.
      I’m sure that stance would galvanise existing supporters and some who have grown disillusioned with perceived lack of progress.

      The SNP should also this time make a clear prior public declaration that what matters is that voters’ second (and indeed first) votes be given to whichever pro-Indy candidate or pro-Indy party voters may favour.
      That would be a generous gesture, likely to be better-received than their previous air of entitlement and dismissal conveyed in asking for both first and second votes, to the exclusion of other pro-Indy candidates and party/parties.

    134. Cubby says:

      Liz g@3.09pm

      THE RISE AND DECLINE OF WINGS

      Liz, this is what happens when you give credence to the “it’s just holding your gov to account ”

      Wings above and below the line is now a total disgrace. When Colin Alexander is the standard – then you know Wings has lost the plot.

      Nothing but despair and concern trolls. None of them ever post any criticism of the Britnat media/politicians. It’s all SNP/Scotgov/Sturgeon baaaaaaaaaaaaad. There is so much material for Britnats baaaaaaaad but all they post is the opposite. Wings has been taken over. Some genuine Wingers may want to reflect on their contribution to this sad state of affairs.

      If you recover Wings from this I will be the first to salute you. Posters like Bob Mack claim they want to debate, but they don’t, they just want to drive people away who do not want to post SNP baaad all the time.

    135. David McKenzie says:

      I’d love to read the article you’d have written had the MSM printed something like this a year ago

    136. Liz g says:

      Shug @ 3.28
      While it would be fun if the Court punished him,I don’t think for a minute it will!
      What I’m hoping for is that they decide that sending a second letter signed by the Speaker would ensure that the Court could be sure that the Law was complied with.
      That would exercise their power.
      Show they believe Johnson was a liar.
      That an unsigned Lester wasn’t good enough.
      And that the end result was the outcome the Court directed.
      Boris Johnson cannot really complain,if the first letter was adequate the second would be moot.
      If it was not adequate then the Court was correct and he tried to subvert the Court order!
      That’s what I’d do….But judge’s are a strange lot. 🙂

    137. Republicofscotland says:

      Lets not forget if Brexit is somehow cancelled, it’s likely the EU would return to its 2014 stance of acting cold towards a independent Scotland.

      Plus EU nationals and UK folk who’ve moved to Scotland hoping to avoid Brexit would more than likely vote no again in another indy ref if one ever materalised.

      Add in Better Together and the whole media machine would turn the tables on us saying if you vote for independence you’ll be out of the EU.

      Sturgeon wants to remain in the EU, by somehow cancelling Brexit, it appears likely that, that scenario would probably be a deadly blow to independence.

      Finally if Sturgeon achieves her goal and the UK remains in the EU, and we lose all the voters who would’ve voted for independence due to Brexit, we’ll also have the new hub to contend with as well in Edinburgh, with its projected attempts to syphon powers and undermine Holyrood at every turn.

    138. Capella says:

      @ ScotRenewables – I agree with your assessment of where the SNP is ATM and why we are blessed with so many unionist commenteers ATM. The two are connected. It’s a reason to be cheerful. The stakes are very high.

      But, never engage with trolls, never discuss trolls. Just scroll on by and treat them with the ignoral they deserve.

      @ Ian Brotherhood – I am sorry I can’t make it to the WoS party next weekend. It’s just a bit too far away. But I hope lots of people do make it and post back on here. It’ll be a great opportunity to dissect what is happening (not least, on this site). 🙂

    139. @Bob Mack,

      `I cried that morning al! over again.` !`m sure you d!d,

      everyt!me ! see your mon!ker on the comments ! cry.

    140. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Hi Stu.,

      A big thanks for giving your ALL over these past few years. If only the SNP had considered a “Plan B” a long time ago, or even just listened to the logic of your argument and the evidence of the polls undertaken by WoS.

      The SNP were right to start out on the SAVE ENGLAND FROM BREXIT but have gotten tramlined and painted themselves into “that” corner.

      Now Scotland will get the shafting of a lifetime as the SNP missed several opportunities to negotiate a Section 30 order. Maybe Nicola can learn something from how the DUP get what they want!

      Now we must all prepare for FIVE years of Boris Johnson and far-right Tory mayhem. FIVE years of Scotland being ignored, abused, dumped on and all the other excrement that will come our way.

      There is one last hope: but we shall have to wait until after “that” trial next year. He has returned to the helm of the SNP before. After FIVE years of Boris and Brex5hit that Scotland rightfully deserves, plus the deaths of the disabled…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      … Scotland may have a new appetite for giving all of this IndyRef2 another go.

      If Alec came back, by the time we were all in a winning state again, the “once in a generation” mantra will have been extinguished.

      Such a shame the current SNP leadership missed an open goal.

      ———————-

      Also on a minor point, Stuart, thankyou for your answer to that ignorant “Scottish Renewables” poster.

      Several folk tried to reason with him/it/her but just got dog’s abuse from him/it/her.

      ———————-

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      20 October, 2019 at 12:56 pm

      SCOTTISH RENEWABLES POSTED “You are all just so much hot air. Not one suggestion as to how PRACTICALLY achieve Independence”

      Rev Stu., replied to “Scottish Renewables” poster…

      Actually two very clear, specific and practical suggestions. Neither of which are guaranteed successes, but which is still two more than you’ve come up with.

    141. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      How much rubbish can you spout. I have been posting on Wings a lot longer than you. Check it out then get back go me

    142. Douglas says:

      Stuart,

      I don’t agree with your idea or any notion of gaining Independence via a cunning ‘pact with the devil’.

      While we are still in the Union we should try to do the right thing, even if it’s not expedient.

      A deal with the Tories to arrange a Brexit acceptable to ERG, the Xenophobes and the Big money trying to dodge tax would be morally wrong (and very quickly punished at the ballot box).

      Yes, a second Brexit vote might be used against us but the British will always try something. A clear prospectus will help but I know that the British will negotiate in bad faith, that is why we need as many friends in Europe as possible.

      Brexit alone is not the only reason for revisiting Independence, the way that Scotland has been treated since 2014 is. Brexit is part of that, even if it doesn’t happen (unlikely).

      I agree with Peter Bell and you that the SNP leadership has handled this in a baffling way. Having paid the price of following this course, I don’t think we should abandon it now.

      The best outcome all round would still be Ireland (+/- the six counties), rUK and Scotland all as Independent EU countries. As you point out, Brexit is so important to many, we may end up being chucked out if we stand in the way (it’s their fault for giving us a vote). I’d even settle for the Singapore route.

    143. defo says:

      The ‘oil’ word’s been mentioned, and please correct me if i’m wrong, but doesn’t the taxpayer actually subsidize the Tories mates for extracting the cursed stuff?
      Taxes are added after leaving the refinery.

    144. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 3.48
      Thing is Cubby,a lot of Wingers are by now in touch personally.
      We are all still around and in direct communication with each other.
      There’s a whole ven diagram of us in almost every corner of Scotland.
      So the current targeting of Wings might look like it’s working but it only ” looks ” that way.
      We all see what’s going on and I think you’ll find that when the Campaign is up and running Wingers will be too.. Many of Them 🙂

    145. Famous15 says:

      Cubby be careful Bob Mack will send you a tinfoil hat to pretend that he is not a Unionist

      If it talks like a Unionist,smells like a Unionistalks like a Unionist then ask Mack for his opinion and he will tell you he is an Indepenfdentista like him. OK.

    146. Bob Mack says:

      @Scot Finlayson,

      I would to if I expected to be mauled again. I sympathise.

    147. Famous15 says:

      Hunting in packs.

      Tag teams united.

    148. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous 15,

      Want to meet me at the Wings night out. Id be up for it

    149. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous 15,

      That last comment sting a bit ?

    150. Famous15 says:

      Only after you attend an anger management course.

      “You can’t handle the truth”

    151. Famous15 says:

      Bob if you are the genuine article you need to work on your people skills.Your constant belligerence and negativity would make William Wallace doubt his commitment.

    152. North chiel says:

      “ We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another Independence referendum if there is clear & sustained evidence that independence is the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people “.
      OR If there is a material change in circumstance such as being taken out of the EU against our will.

      THAT IS EITHER ONE OR THE OTHER OR BOTH BEING A MANDATE FOR INDYREF2.
      This means precisely that whether we remain or leave the EU PART ONE of THE MANDATE REMAINS IN EFFECT.
      What is there not to understand about “ the mandate” ??

    153. Bob Mack says:

      I used to teach anger management courses. What makes tou think Im angry?. I find al! this conspiracy theory stuff going kn here absolutely fascinating. I reaaly do.

      Now, if Im what you think I am ,then Im quite prepared to walk into the lions den of a Wings get together. Are you?

      You can ask me anything.

    154. Famous15 says:

      Good for you.

      Now say why independence would be a good thing.

    155. Mark Russell says:

      This was Ian Paisley responding to Ian Blackford yesterday in the debate. Generally speaking, when you’re on the same side as the DUP, you need to rethink quickly…

      Ian Paisley: The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that he and I come to this from very different perspectives. However, I believe we should be united on this issue today. This is not a good deal for Northern Ireland, and I plead with him not to suggest that what would be a bad deal for Northern Ireland should be a good deal for the people of Scotland. If this had applied to the people of Scotland, I would be voting against it for his sake and for his people’s sake. That is why I encourage him to vote against it for our sake.

      Ian Blackford: We will certainly vote against it.

    156. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous 15,

      You see how things become confabulafed. incicate to me just ONE postk ok mine where I say indeenddnce would be bad. Il! wait. You can go back to pre 2014 referendum when I waS postjng

      On the other hand you wil! find many recent posts of mine which criticise SNP strategy.

      You are creating something that doesnt exist like many other posters. It is confabulation

      I apparently started posting amazingly enough before the” 77th brigade “ever existed.

      I was before my time obviously

    157. Papko says:

      ONE of THE MANDATE REMAINS IN EFFECT.
      What is there not to understand about “ the mandate” ??
      @North.

      You may well have a “mandate”.

      In 2015 GE SNP garnered 1.5 million votes and 50% of the vote on a 75% turnout.

      In 2016 Holyrood elections SNP got 1 million votes on a 55% turnout and 46% of the vote.

      In 2017 SNP gathered 1 million votes on a 67% turnout 37% of the vote, crucially over 1.6 million Scots voted for parties of the Union.

      Thats why the starting gun has not been fired for the “democratic festival of peace and love” or Indyref2 as you prefer.

      There is no sign of a change in voting patterns to get the ball over the line.

    158. Liz g says:

      Mark Russel @ 4.34
      Well “on the side of the DUP” is a bit subjective don’t ye think.
      I mean if the vote was about child protection for example you wouldn’t expect the SNP to vote only in opposition to the DUP,that’s not how politics works.
      There are only Two sexes… But there are many different political positions,none are binary,or based in science..
      Really more of a feeling at a particular point in time subject to change and not particularly good natured!

    159. Famous15 says:

      OK Bob ,mea culpa.

    160. shug says:

      I have found recently that many unionists bang on about Sturgeon being decisive obsessive and belligerent

      Previously it was Salmond

      The common theme from unionist of every shade if they hate

      It is the one thing they have in common

    161. doug_bryce says:

      Brex-shite is happening irrespective of what Scotland does or thinks. Once it happens the time will be right to strike. We are no where near peak chaos for the UK yet

    162. Iain mhor says:

      I think the last time I had a vote on anyone’s policy was around 2017, it was a General Election if I recall.
      I don’t even like MP’s.
      I think the next time I get to vote on anyone’s policy is 2021, Scottish Elections to Holyrood I believe.
      I’m not long back ‘in country’, so I may have missed a ballot paper in amongst the junk mail. The one where I get to vote on current SNP policy.
      I didn’t see one for a ballot to elect the local Sheriff either, nor was there one to vote in a local council election. It appears that there are a lot of things I’m not being asked to vote for. Though I did get to press a button to comment on the state of airport toilets.

      I have a sneaking suspicion, that my opinion on current political decisions isn’t being sought, or even required for them to occur. I’m sure if I disagree with any of it, there is a mechanism whereby I can register my view and affect the outcome. For the life of me I can’t think of anything though.

      Well, I can think of one, but its not very fair to the elderly, infirm, women or children, who can’t swing as hard as me – not particularly democratic, so can’t be that. Though I believe, historically, it’s deemed acceptable in most European countries and quite popular globally, as a way to effect change without any hanging around for the postie delivering a plebiscite.
      Ahh, it is that, isn’t it? D’oh, what am I like.

    163. mr thms says:

      The National has published a stirring itinerary for the 700th anniversary of the Declaration of Arbroath in 2020

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17980786.planning-great-2020-mark-arbroaths-role-history/

      (It is behind a pay wall, but if you have Chrome browser it can be read in incognito mode)

    164. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Capella –

      Cheers.

      Dunno how much appetite there will be for discussing certain prickly topics but we’ll have a good time anyway.

      Bummer you can’t make it. Maybe another time?!

      😉

    165. Colin Alexander says:

      I offered a positive suggestion: If there’s a General election:

      Pro-indy parties get 50% +1 Scotland declares union dissolved.
      Immediate recall of all Scots MPs to Holyrood.
      Holyrood Declared parliament representing Scottish sovereignty.

      If pro-indy win that does not reach 50% +1, indy sought by indyref.

      Manifesto has no other policies, as SNP etc will never be UK Govt. so no need for UK Govt manifesto policies.

      That’s a positive compromise from a YESSER critic of the SNP.

      Anyone back that compromise?

    166. Liz g says:

      Iain Mohr @ 5.05
      Elect a local Sheriff ?

    167. Liz g says:

      Ian Brotherhood @ 5.12
      And sausage rolls… Don’t forget tae mention the Sausage Rolls

    168. Famous15 says:

      Colin Alexander, does this mean we are really,really bad bandits. Do we get to go to jail.Does the Daily Mail get to call us terrorists.Will the Daily Express call us thugs. Will anyone say that is soooo very Social Democratic, Will we still be Civic nationalists. Will we? will we?

      Do tell Colin,clever Colin Alexander. No need for tinfoil for that one ,

    169. Bobp says:

      Shug 4.52pm .shug, mother Teresa could have been the first minister, and it would still be the same old same old unionist sh**e……….see that effin mother teresa

    170. t42 says:

      Sundays are turning into a 77th brigade chatboard on here, must be on double-time.
      Don’t know how you can look at yourselves in the mirror sometimes.

    171. Capella says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood – yes definitely if there is another meet up. It’s a 10 hour round trip to Glasgow though so a bit daunting at this time of year. I’m sure it’ll be fun. Keep us posted.

      Greggs does vegan sausage rolls BTW – Liz g 🙂

    172. Colin Alexander says:

      No matter how indy is achieved, it will never be acceptable to the Daily Mail, Express etc.

      You can never please all the people, despite what Nicola suggests.

    173. defo says:

      Andy Murray is a total effing Hero!

      European open champ

    174. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      O/T Andy Murray wins the tournament in Antwerp.

      So I guess the BBC will be announcing a “British win”.

    175. dadsarmy says:

      Apparently a second EU Ref could be organised in up to 22 weeks, and with a Brexit extension being needed it’d be very unlikely to be any longer. So 22 weeks from 31st October makes it Thursday April 2nd, 2020.

      Much of the Indy Ref 2 groundwork can and would have been done, so either 8 weeks or 14 weeks from then, leaving a week to get it started makes it Thursday July 16, 2020, after another 15 weeks maximum actually needed.

      So yes, there’s PLENTY of time for both an EU Ref and Indy Ref 2 next year, and all wrapped up in time for Santa.

    176. callmedave says:

      O/T

      Murray wins final. 🙂
      —————————————————————–
      I too hope to see the judges tell our PM his presence is required in court.

    177. Shamur says:

      As others have mentioned we will still have a mandate even if we stay in the EU. Nicola just said during an interview last week that there will be a referendum on Independence no matter what. She stated Brexit is a prime example of why Scotland should be independent, so we can charter our own course, making and being responsible for our own decisions, I’m ad-libbing but you get the gist.

      I for one am happy to wait it out. Thankfully Nicola said she wouldn’t do a deal with the Tories. I didn’t vote but would be in the 1 third also.

    178. O/T

      WELL DONE Andy Murray – just WON the European Open singles championship against Wawrinka.

      What a fighter.

    179. Bobp says:

      unionists hate.its in their ‘kulture’and DNA.

    180. Bobp says:

      So that means Andy’s British then?

    181. Bob Mack says:

      Incredible comeback from Andy Murray. Such courage and determination following major surgery.

      What a battler he is.

    182. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Mark Russell @ 16:34,

      I reckon that the DUP, whatever their particular political standpoint may be, is beginning to realise that they have something important in common with us: whenever our usefulness to London ceases, we are completely expendable.

      Conclusion: the only way out of that situation is to break definitively with London.

      If I were in the DUP leadership, I would seriously contemplate doing a deal with the Republic that would give their people continuing influence in a reunited Ireland, since if they just hang on and resist change, their demographic will slowly but inexorably sink, and their party along with it.

    183. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Not sure if Starmer is really in control of Labour policy, or just trying to push out his own boat again, but it’s interesting to speculate what happens next if there is an EURef2 and the UK remains in the EU thanks to the Scottish vote.

      The possibility of an extremely unlikely “velvet divorce” suddenly becomes a notch or two less improbable.

    184. callmedave says:

      Andy Murray: Briton
      Beats Stan Wawrinka to win first title since hip surgery

      There ye go! 🙂

    185. Muscleguy says:

      I think if we had gone all indyref2 in urgent response to the Brexit vote and gone to law to test if the original S30 is still in effect (as some learned opinion has it at least arguable) then firstly SNP voters would not have sat on their hands in the last GE and Nicola would not have got cold feet all of a sudden.

      So I put the whole farago of it down to Nicola and her advisers being too cautious/craven (choose your epithet). Ruth would still have gone all ‘No referendum’ on us but it would have been easier to counter by pointing to what we are doing anyway and polls would have been different in response as well.

      And public opinion to WM blocking that S30 and ScotGov getting all legal on their arses wold have gone down well I think. Instead it was ‘oh okay then’ and damp squib ‘let’s wait for Brexit clarity’.

      We could have had and won indyref2 by now (having moved the polls by campaigning). Also the strain of it all would have brought out the worst in the Establishment alienating more Scots and given the EU cause to cut up rough at no ScotGov people in the negotiating room over Brexit. They asked apparently but it seemed our ardour for it had dimmed by then.

      Making HMG negotiate with both the EU over Brexit and Us Plus the EU looking over our shoulders over Indy would likely have caused WM to either go even more haywire or throw in both towels. If Brexit had been cancelled once we’d already voted Yes it wouldn’t have mattered much I don’t think. Public attention would have moved onto all the excitement and news of building things up and where we go then. Brexit would have been someone else’s problem and at best we would simply breathe a sigh of relief at the border issue going away.

      As it polls show over 70% of folk are relaxed about a hardening of the border. I suspect most folk want to be able to keep the Gammon types out.

    186. ahundredthidiot says:

      This is a really good piece Stu, I cant help thinking that Brexit – not through any sort of deliberate design – is distracting people to the point where some people can no longer see the wood for the trees. Perhaps this is to be expected, it is a monumental political shift.

      For me though, Brexit takes second place to Scotlands Independence, but I respect that for some people, our independence plays second fiddle to their personal principles – in refusing to do a deal with Englands Tories.

      Pride – one big fat ugly Sin – possibly the worst of all the sins.

      One way or another – Scotland will get what She deserves.

    187. Cubby says:

      Does anyone really think that if remain eventually wins (not that I think it will) that all those leavers and the leave politicians who have wound up all the leave voters are just going to say ah well we lost and go away.

      The Brexit madness will go on and on no matters who wins the first round.

      What ever happens with Brexit in the coming months there is a clear mandate for Indyref2 as Shamur says above. More and more people in Scotland will see a better and happier future in deciding our own destiny

    188. Giving Goose says:

      Keep an eye open for Operation Yellowhammer activity in Scotland.
      It could take any form.

    189. Cubby says:

      Liz G@4.04pm

      Liz, thanks for the positive reply.

    190. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Muscleguy @ 18:03,

      I have to disagree, at least in part. And I say this as a fully-paid-up-member of the “proactive tendency”. The SNP may have chosen the wrong election strategy back in 2017, but too many voters then were totally unready to face another indyref, and the Ruth-Davidson-vote-for-Ruth-Davidson-no-to-indyref2 Party exploited that reluctance very cleverly. Too many people still wanted to believe in unicorns. So it was essential to wait and let the consequences of Brexit sink in naturally. That process of maturation has now happened, even if there remains an ever-present danger of backsliding by voters willing to give the UK “just one more chance”.

      A visible English backlash to even the danger (to them) of an IR2 might be enough though to keep them on our side. A definitive end to prospective ongoing uncertainty remains a strong selling-point.

    191. ewen says:

      Well, the way I see it is we can be complete shits and back Brexit or we can hold to our principles and oppose it. As it is there has been material change since 2014 and that is mandate enough.
      How many have asserted that they have no animosity against the people from other parts of the UK yet are willing to to put them in the shit to get independence. How tory of you all.
      From a life long campaigner for independence, not one who defected from Labour. And I don’t vote SNP. I have been out of the SNP longer than many have been in it.

    192. Cubby says:

      DO A DEAL WITH THE TORIES

      Discussing this at all is just nonsense. It is nothing to do with misplaced pride.

      This is just fantasy. Did the Maybot during all those years and her cancelled votes and subsequent actual votes ever give even the smallest hint that they wanted a deal with the SNP. NO

      Will Johnson ever want a deal NO

      So why is it being discussed – more SNP baaad – not the Daily Mail variety but the SNP baaad all the same.

    193. dadsarmy says:

      @ewen
      Even if I did twitter I wouldn’t answer such a meaningless poll. It’s like asking “Would you turn down killing a dog if it was the price for not killing a cat?”.

      My answer is I wouldn’t do either.

    194. Cubby says:

      I believe too many people posting are letting their personal loyalty to the site owner cloud their judgement.

    195. defo says:

      And conversely Cubby, the SNP faithful here can bear no criticism of the blessed Nicola. (who i like, and admire)

    196. jfngw says:

      All those who come here and post about the sovereign people of Scotland and then back a plan that requires Scotland to horse trade a deal on the promise of backing something Scotland voted against, maybe should think it through. You are basically saying we are not sovereign and our future choices will always be at the whim of another country.

      To be honest Scots don’t seem to have the balls that the Irish have, too many will sell their countrymen down the river for a bit of self advancement, this has been the case since the parliamentarians sold out Scotland at the time of the union. Now they frequent the house of parliament decked in their ermine robes.

      I sometimes think many Scots will only become independent when England tell them they should.

    197. Col.Blimp IV says:

      I reckon the SNP and PC should strenuously DEMAND, if possible by an amendment to the Brexit Bill requiring a vote, that Scotland and Wales be included in the Single Market and Customs Union.

      Whether it was agreed or not the MPs of all Parties would be forced to reveal themselves as anti-Scot or not.

      If Labour and the Lib-Dems oppose the Idea and it fails, The SNP would have every justification for abstaining or even voting with the government, on the grounds that to remain in a Union with people who are so clearly hostile to the wishes and well being of the people of Scotland is utterly unacceptable.

      If such a move was to Succeed – Scotland would be spared the imagined travails of Brexit and the SNP might even be lauded as heroes.

      If it was to fail we would still have the “substantive change in circumstances” reason for Indyref2 and an electorate fired up with a genuine sense of grievance to help get the desired result.

      If the SNP continue their pan-British Remainiac stance…

      If they succeed – there would no plausible reason for Inderef2 being foisted on a plebiscite-weary electorate and even if they got one there would be fewer reasons for those not already committed to Scottish independence to vote yes.

      If they fail – there is still a good excuse for Indyref2 but they would be universally derided as serial ignorers of referendum results, playing silly games, when they should be trying to fix the things that matter to the people – NHS waiting lists, potholes, a failing education system etc

    198. scotrock says:

      Wings is the best go to site for the alternative information to Brit Nat propaganda.
      I don’t always agree with Stu or other commentators but I sure want WoS to continue.
      The information on this site is invaluable for independence supporters. Hence why Yoons attack it. I will continue to support this site

    199. ben madigan says:

      @ Robert J. Sutherland who said:

      “If I were in the DUP leadership, I would seriously contemplate doing a deal with the Republic”

      The DUP’s only raison d’etre is the Union –
      As far as brexit is concerned they want a hard border in ireland so as to do away with the belfast/Good Friday Agreement, which they never suppported.
      They will never contemplate doing a deal with the Republic because they would simply disappear with their power citadel in Northern ireland.
      Even though they love money I doubt if there is enough to buy them off!

    200. Capella says:

      Great to see “Briton” (BBC) Andy Murray back on form. His mum has been tweeting clips, Nicola has retweeted his mum’s clips, various people have retweeted the retweeted clips…

      An inspiration for us all – never give up 🙂

    201. defo says:

      ben
      The paramilitary boys have long given up on ideology, and are now making a killing holding the monopoly on drugs.
      The DUP by extension, are similarly motivated.
      see
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_Heat_Incentive_scandal

      The other lot are the same, and have been for decades.

    202. Colin Alexander says:

      English law and Scots Law differs in the execution of documents.

      I hope Mr Johnson received correct advice about whether his EU letter complies with Scots Law.

    203. Graeme says:

      @Rev
      Re your twitter question about No 10 I believe it was inside right

    204. callmedave says:

      The Observer view on Boris Johnson’s sorry Brexit deal

      http://archive.is/VM7ed

    205. callmedave says:

      No No!

      Old style footie was a 1 : 2 : 3: 5 formation (1 = goalie)

      then 2=right back 3=left back
      then 4= right half 5 centre half 6 = left half
      then 7= right wing 8= inside right 9 = centre forward
      10 = inside left 11 = left wing

      Viewed from the goalkeeper.

    206. Welsh Sion says:

      Capella says:
      20 October, 2019 at 7:16 pm

      Great to see “Briton” (BBC) Andy Murray back on form. His mum has been tweeting clips, Nicola has retweeted his mum’s clips, various people have retweeted the retweeted clips…

      An inspiration for us all – never give up ?

      ________

      I thought the original inspiration for not giving up was Robert the Bruce and his eight-legged friend. 😉

      But I bet the BBC (and others) would call him a ‘Brit’, too! 🙂

      Congrats to Andy – and to my national rugby team. 😀

    207. callmedave says:

      Jings! Now i’m checking what I just said…. 🙁 Dearie me.

    208. Noticed that the first up of its fat arse, when Joanna called a point of order in the commons, was the Brutish Nationalist and Unionist favourite Uncle Jock Stephen Kerr MP misrepresenting the poor folk of Stirling,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alQ-HHaeonA

    209. dadsarmy says:

      A couple of interesting opinions:

      https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2019/10/09/jeff-king-the-prime-ministers-constitutional-options-after-the-benn-act-part-i/

      e.g. as an extreme taster “Any person who considers helping to plan or execute such a scheme should think very carefully. As made clear above, the scheme would be unlawful and notoriously so. Executing it in secret might well constitute the crime of misconduct in public office, an indictable offence carrying a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

      and

      https://verfassungsblog.de/why-the-european-council-must-not-reject-an-article-50-extension-request/

      It is a democratic decision which the EU must respect, for else it would be expelling a Member State against its own sovereign and democratic will. Art 50 does not allow this, as the ECJ confirmed in Wightman. The European Council may determine the length of the extension, and impose certain conditions, in agreement with the United Kingdom. But it cannot refuse this extension.

    210. callmedave says:

      @Graeme

      You were / are right. Sorry.

      From the goalie the numbering was left to right up the rows.
      So No10 was the inside right. Right winger No11.

      I had no problem with No 9 I just frittered about in the middle.

    211. Daisy Walker says:

      Just in, so haven’t read all of the above. Apologies if this has already been suggested.

      If there is to be an EU Ref 2. On the same day, at the same time, Scotland holds a second Indy Ref 2. This will be our guarantee that our vote will be respected.

      For those who have moved from No to Yes given the shambles of WM/Brexshit – the change is made, although some might waver at the thought that England might have changed its mind.

      Offset by the English Nationalists with holiday homes in Scotland – they would have to chose which home to vote from.

      The issue of doing it with or without a S30 – will not exercise the voters in any way if they are having to go to the polls on that day anyway.

      And the results of Scotland’s majority vote was not ‘respected’ in the last EU Ref now was it – so what use would a s30 be when we get a yes vote majority. These arseholes don’t even respect the Good Friday Agreement and that’s an international treaty.

      The SNP started out saying Scotland doesn’t need another EU Ref because of the 62%, then it said no IndyRef2 could be called until the effects of Brexit were known/felt, and always and only with a fools gold s30 standard.. from Boris! And now they fight to save England from its own choice, because they don’t want them damaged economically.

      God what a muddle. Meanwhile what is clear – NS said IndyRef 2 will be next year. I understand she cannot ‘name the date’, but in view of that timescale I would very much like to see the campaign started.

      Looks like the Rev called her out correctly on that one and next year was never intended.

      Dear EU, if you are going to grant another extension, please, please, please don’t include the Tax Haven legislation in it. The sooner that kicks in, the sooner the mad bams in power and driving this nonsense will fu@> right off.

      Thanks.

    212. Terry callachan says:

      WOS is wrong here.

      1) the Scottish government voting against brexit from the very start and continuing to do so is perfectly reasonable given that two thirds of people in Scotland voted against brexit.

      2) the DUP were originally in favour of brexit until they found out what the finer details demanded by the EU were going to be then they changed their mind to be remainers

      For WOS to say that the SNP are in bed with the DUP is mind bogglingly idiotic and quite frankly gives the impression of
      “I had an opinion and even though it was proven erroneous I’m going to stick with it and make ever more ridiculous claims to support it”

      3) WOS saying that the SNP mandate for another indyref is premised on brexit is a half truth because we also know that f there is any other major change of circumstances it would bring on another indyref too, well there are increasing items of major change in circumstances that qualify for another indyref as each step of brexit unfolds , the refusal to keep the Scottish government informed and included in discussions , the walking out of hundreds of MPs whenever an SNP MP rises to speak in Westminster etc etc.

      It’s still likely that brexit will happen
      When it does
      Scottish government will call a Scottish independence referendum

      There’s a lesser chance that brexit will stall and another referendum will be held

      There’s a lesser still chance that brexit will be cancelled

      Which of those should the Scottish government follow ?

      The first is the sensible option because it sticks to the plan

      Following WOS advice would have sunk Scottish independence with the Westminster vote yesterday
      because brexit would have passed with the SNPs votes but if no trade agreement was reached within 12 months with the EU a no deal brexit would proceed and SNP would be named on the support bill.

      What we see here is WOS gambling once again on a hunch , a hunch that is second favourite .

      Gee who’d have thought

    213. Grey Gull says:

      Scotrock@7pm
      I agree. I’ve been lurking for years and occasionally posting on this site. Can’t say I’m enjoying much of the chat these days but people like Stu are invaluable to the Indy movement. It’s always good to have different views and to be able to express them. The WBB was inspirational. Hope it’s not too long before we’re distributing WBB2.

    214. Graeme says:

      callmedave says:
      20 October, 2019 at 8:07 pm

      @Graeme

      You were / are right. Sorry.

      From the goalie the numbering was left to right up the rows.
      So No10 was the inside right. Right winger No11.

      I had no problem with No 9 I just frittered about in the middle.

      Beg to differ Dave Right Wing was No 7 No11 was inside left I think

    215. Col.Blimp IV says:

      callmedave

      Eh!

      No, you were right the first time.

      No 11 is left-wing, football or rugby.

      left-wing can mean anything you want it to mean in politics though.

    216. doug_bryce says:

      @Terry callachan
      Correct : DUP have got into bed with SNP.
      Not the other way round.

      There is nothing Scotland can do to cancel Brex-shite.
      SNP tactics are sound. Look what happened to Lab and Con as result of not having defined position on EU

    217. Sunshine says:

      Cold Blimp 1V @6.55
      I am not too hot on the procedures at Westminster, but I would have thought that an SNP amendment to the leaving bill asking for the same deal as NI, would have been a given.
      There maybe reasons why that isnt possible.

    218. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Grey Gull (8.14) –

      Hope you’ll comment more often.

      It does get a bit wearing, I know, seeing the same names all the time, and even worse when they just repeat themselves endlessly, but the most obvious antidote to that is a greater variety of voices and views.

      🙂

    219. Terry callachan says:

      Colin Alexander your post 5.15pm

      I would go with that for sure

    220. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Sunshine

      They proposed it way back in the early days of Brexit, when the tories thought they were holding all the aces.

      I think the SNP abandoned the idea and went with the “people’s vote” anti-tory alliance angle.

      The goalposts have moved since then and I would think that resurrecting it is by far the best move they could make.

    221. callmedave says:

      Thanks folks on the footie thing.

      You all know I have my address stitched on the inside of my jacket

      🙂

    222. dakk says:

      No.10 is definitely inside left.

    223. Daisy Walker says:

      Very very sorry to hear Nana is poorly, and can only apologise for not visiting her links when they moved sight. I do read extensively, but never got into the habit of going to the new site.

      Keep well Nana, and thanks for all your efforts. We can only do our best.

    224. Grey Gull says:

      Thanks, Ian (8.21). As you say “voices and views… “ I think the online thing is different, has the potential of good but it also isn’t living in the real world. I had to turn up in my local on the Friday after Indy1 and face unionist voting friends…and they are friends. None of them were gloating, at least not to my face, because I live in a small community and we all have to get on. I just keep trying to persuade them that there is a better future for Scotland. And there is.

    225. Col.Blimp IV says:

      dakk

      Strange how something everyone would have known 20 or 30 years ago has become something of a mystery.

      That said 30 odd years ago I would have been able to name the majority of the players in the SPL, today I would be lucky to name more than 2 or 3 players from half of the teams in the league and none at all from the other half.

    226. Iain mhor says:

      @LizG 5:19pm

      Yeah, one of those many things I don’t get asked to do, like decide what the SNP or any other politico should be doing over Brexit, about Indy, or to cast a vote to decide the colour of the lights used in Clyde navigation.

      I enjoy some of the discussions and theories about what should or should not be happening; but like deciding on who the local Sheriff is (or if there should even be one) it has absolutely nothing to do with me. I’m not being asked for my input. Nor have I any democratic way to affect the outcome. There are other ways apparently, but I’m not currently asking others, nor is anyone asking me, to participate in them. Perhaps that is the error and solution.
      Next scheduled plebiscite is Spring of 2021. Until then, maybe a sternly worded letter to a politician of choice or something might work. I highly doubt it though.

    227. defo says:

      ^^^^
      And so it starts.
      PC gone mad etc etc

      Only bright side is it’s happening now, time for damage limitation & modern memory loss

    228. callmedave says:

      OK: Here is the Guardian explaining it:
      —————————————————————-
      “The numbering system originates from the accepted formation of a team up to, and including, approximately the end of the 1960s as a 2-3-5 formation [firstly coined by Arsenal manager Herbert Chapman in the 1920s]

      “As the teams were generally printed in pictorial representations in match programmes and newspapers (with goalkeeper and the TOP, forward line at the BOTTOM), this is how the numbers most logically scanned across from left to right and DOWN the page:

      The Guardian’s take on the world of football

      “1 goalkeeper; 2 and 3 full-backs;

      4, 5 and 6 half-backs (right half, centre half and left half);

      7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 forwards (outside right, inside right, centre, inside left and outside left).
      ————————————————————-
      So I was right the first time after all as some said.
      It was the way the programmes were printed.

    229. galamcennalath says:

      Daisy Walker says:

      If there is to be an EU Ref 2. On the same day, at the same time, Scotland holds a second Indy Ref 2.

      Very sensible. Avoids the need for vetos etc (which would be unlikely anyway).

      It would settle everything at once. People can vote in both with their personal choices, the two are necessarily tied together so any permutation is a valid option.

      Regardless of what England votes, if Scotland voted Remain again, and Yes, then the path is clearly Independence in Europe.

      If Scotland was daft enough to vote NO then it is explicit that we take the EURef result at a UK level.

    230. Col.Blimp IV says:

      cynicalHighlander

      Shame that we can’t “self-identify” as Citizens of Independent Scotland and have our Passports amended accordingly.

    231. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      I concur, callmedave.

      #10 was inside-left and #11 was the left-winger. I played that position in my BB football team and my two heroes were Shug Robertson of Dundee and Davey Wilson of Rangers, who both sported #11.

    232. dadsarmy says:

      Football! I know this one.

      There’s a team of 22, and you get 5 half forwards, 6 centre swingers, 7 striking backs who aren’t paid enough (as if), and 4 walk-on goal-sweepers. They’re drilled in formation by a silly-leg on umpire, 2 line-wicketkeepers and 6 muppets who all wear big gloves on one hand only. They usually fire blanks. The coaches and horses occupy pits on either side of a big park where they tune up and change the spark plugs.

      I think that’s about it.

    233. Bob Mack says:

      News coming out in The Times that EU wil! offer extension till end of February that can be cancelled if deal agreed.

    234. Col.Blimp IV says:

      dadsarmy

      I thought that was how they line up for the Eaton Wall Game.

    235. dakk says:

      Col Blimp IV

      Yeah suppose words can go out of fashion just like other things.

      Keep hoping bri nylon y fronts make a come back.

    236. ben madigan says:

      @defo who said
      “The paramilitary boys have long given up on ideology, and are now making a killing holding the monopoly on drugs.
      The DUP by extension, are similarly motivated”.

      Totally agree the DUP are in close cahoots with Loyalist paramilitaries – It’s an openly known secret that the UDA/UVF are their back-up boys when things don’t go as the DUP want and what they want is a hard border (security jobs for their boys and girls) and to take back control in NI.

    237. Terry callachan says:

      Scotland should not have to have another EU referendum

      Certainly not an EU referendum like the last one that was a U.K. wide referendum because our five million votes count for nothing against the fifty million of England

      Why would we make that mistake again ?

      We could have another EU referendum if it is to decide if Scotland only stays in the EU or leaves
      a Scotland only referendum
      We should attach a condition though
      And that is that it’s a joint EU referendum and Scottish independence referendum

      The question being

      Do you want to leave the U.K. and remain in EU
      OR
      Do you want to remain in U.K. and leave the EU

    238. Col.Blimp IV says:

      dakk

      Brushed Nylon y-fronts would be great in the winter.

    239. crazycat says:

      @ Daisy Walker at 8.10

      I also (idly) wondered if there could be two referendums on the same day. We have had a referendum combined with an election (2011), and that did not cause any obvious problems.

      It would be doubly important to keep the Yes/No question, though – imagine two Leave/Remain ballots, with most people voting in two opposite ways!

      (There are of course plenty of other reasons for not changing the question, not least the impossibility of “leaving” a union in which one is a founding partner; I was just thinking about the potential for chaos and confusion.)

    240. defo says:

      ben
      Yes, control = power=£££

      Please don’t say anything to them though mate, I need my legs for work
      🙂

    241. Cubby says:

      For goodness said how many times does it need to be posted that you end the UK not leave it.

    242. Daisy Walker says:
      20 October, 2019 at 8:10 pm
      Just in, so haven’t read all of the above. Apologies if this has already been suggested.

      If there is to be an EU Ref 2. On the same day, at the same time, Scotland holds a second Indy Ref 2. This will be our guarantee that our vote will be respected.
      ——————–

      EU Ref 2 is unlikely IMO, but if it does occur you’re absolutely right. If it was possible to synch the two referendums that’s the way we should go, for the reasons you mention and also the EU Ref would help avoid Shock and Awe II. The eye of Sauron will be elsewhere while Frodo and Sam, and Gollum (Manky Jaikit? Blair McDougall? Please let it be Blair McDougall), destroy the ring.

    243. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Cubby

      But if we terminate the UK rather than just leave it.

      They will have to think of a new name.

      Britty McBritface anyone?

    244. chicmac says:

      My position.

      1. Scotland independent but in the EU with England in the EU.

      2. Scotland independent out of the EU but in EFTA/EEA England in the EU.

      3. Scotland independent in the EU England in EFTA/Canada lite type deal.

      4. Scotland independent out of the EU but in EFTA/EEA England
      in EFTA/Canada lite type deal.

      5. Scotland in the UK and the UK in the EU.

      6. Scotland independent in the EU but England out of the EU on hard brexit.

      7. Scotland in the UK but both out of the UK on a non catastrophic deal.

      8 Scotland in the UK and both out if the EU on a hard brexit WTO rules basis.

    245. Colin Alexander says:

      Has Nicola Sturgeon become like Lieutenant Colonel Nicholson in Bridge over the River Kwai film?

      So proud of his achievements under the Empire ( the building of the bridge); he does all the can to save the bridge, even though he’s now helping the enemy (the Japanese Empire) by doing so.

      Remember the tune Colonel Bogey when you see Nicola on the TV trying to save the British Empire from Brexit.

      Brexit, the one thing in the last five years that has shifted voter opinion towards indy.

    246. call me dave says:

      Jings!

      Stephen Nolan ripping brexiteers a few new ones tonight on radio 5
      about what they know on the Boris deal.
      Nolan is from NI and, I think, he’s lost patience and shooting them down on almost everything. There’s plenty numpties out there who should have to pass a test first to vote.
      They don’t even know NI is in the Union and worse they don’t care!
      Scotland is getting the same treatment.

      It’s all going to be alright on the night they trust Boris.
      FGS! We got to get out folks.

      —————————————————————-
      In continuing news BBC says:

      Bercow not likely to allow a MVote as the same question can’t be asked twice

      Inner Court open for business in the Morning!

    247. Colin Alexander says:

      call me dave

      Thanks.

    248. crazycat says:

      @ Cubby at 10.02

      If your comment is aimed at me, please re-read the last paragraph of what I wrote.

      You will be aware that the Electoral Commission was recently toying with the idea of a Leave/Remain question.

    249. Colin Alexander says:

      The Bridge Over the River Kwai = UK state (and devolution under the SNP)

      The demolition charges = Brexit

      Japanese Empire = British Empire

      Lieutenant Colonel Nicholson = FM

      Demolition commandos = Yes movement

    250. Mist001 says:

      @ chicmac

      5. Scotland in the UK and the UK in the EU.

      Is exactly what will happen if the SNP get their way but there will be an added bonus that if there ever is an Indyref2, then Sturgeon and the SNP will have to explain to everyone why they’re dragging Scotland out of the EU.

      My blood’s still boiling. Why can’t they understand this? Or maybe they do.

    251. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Daisy Walker @ 20:10,
      galamcennalath @ 21:02,

      While your common point about turnout is unanswerable, I would disagree about timing for two reasons:

      + It is only after the EU question has been definitively settled one way or the other, and particularly with the likely consequence of an English Leave, that a sensible vote on indy can be cast, at least for the “swing voters”, ie. the ones we need to convince to win. (Even conceding Peter A. Bell’s perfectly valid point that Brexit isn’t by any means the only “mandate issue”.)

      Combining the two votes allows some to continue to indulge their fantasies about the former by voting “no” for the latter. The fog of self-delusional options must be gone before IR2 can happen.

      + Mixing two different issues in a combined plebiscite adds unnecessary confusion to each issue/vote. To win IR2, we need sharp focus on the one paramount issue. No distractions to lead anyone astray.

    252. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      crazycat @ 21:57,

      And two entirely different styles of question, as you mention, exactly typifies my second point @ 23:00.

    253. Gerry says:

      @dadsarmy posted something about the Advocate General for Scotland last night being hauled in front of the Bar Standards Board. Turns out that his charge sheet was added on the 16th, and it’s for “acting in a way likely to diminish the trust and confidence which the public places in a barrister or in the profession” (rule 5)
      Keen assured the court that BJ wouldn’t act in any way so as to frustrate the letter intent. If that’s the reason behind the charge, it could get interesting. Due up on the 29th.

    254. One thing that Stu and others are right about it is that the SNP seem to be failing to use this brief period of leverage in Westminster, due to being *too* consistent and therefore predictable in their Brexit stance.

      With the current scramble to get support for EU Ref 2, the SNP might just be able to thread the needle as follows.

      They agree to support EU Ref 2 in the HOC if ONE of the following happens:

      1. They’re granted a permanent transfer of all constitutional and broadcasting matters to Holyrood. (This could be negotiated down to a S30 if necessary).

      OR

      2. For EU Ref 2 to result in the UK leaving the EU all four countries have to vote for it.

      And the SNP make it clear that this is a *choice* for Labour and the Lib Dems. They simply have to grant us one of these and we’ll support the second EU ref.

      I cannot see Labour in particular agreeing to 2, so that leaves them with 1 as their only option. If they reject that too then that’s on them. We gave them two requests fully supported in Scotland and they turned them both down. Then Labour go into a GE having to defend blowing their one chance at a second EU ref because they wouldn’t give Scotland *either* of its requests, and therefore facing EU obliteration in England and Wales too.

      Even this is unlikely to succeed, of course, but it’s surely worth a try. Use the leverage we now have, not on the Tories but on Labour.

    255. chicmac says:

      @Mist001

      Disagree. I think their position, and mine, is that if England goes hard brexit then the consequences would be so catastrophic (largely for themselves) that an independent Scotland, even in the EU, would inevitably be subject to very severe collateral damage. Not just on trade, of course, but also as a target destination for the inevitable refugees from England (which I am sure is one of the main reasons the EU does not want a hard brexit). Also the historical belligerence on record for England does not rule out the possibility of attempted military annexation for Scotland’s resources.

    256. Sandy says:

      Preston is a hemeriod. Anyone agree?
      Damned annoying to listen too. Seems every interview he conducts is 80% Preston, 20% interviewee – and a pain to listen to. If he doesn’t like the answer, change tack.

      (A pain in the ass is useful as it indicates something amiss. A hemeriod is completely unwanted.)

    257. dadsarmy says:

      @Gerry
      Thanks, I saw your other reply. Added on the 16th – yes, interesting. Reported on the 13th in the Mail on Sunday:

      https://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-scottish-mail-on-sunday/20191013/281724091310732

      No details given, not surprisingly. Curious.

    258. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sandy.

      For future reference…

      haemorrhoid

      Or more simply, a dose of the piles. Still a pain in the @r$€ though…

      8=)

    259. dadsarmy says:

      @Gerry
      I’d have to re-read the court prorogation transcript thing which I can’t be bothered doing, but I do have a vague memory of him being a bit snide about a QC – maybe O’Neill can’t remember. I just vaguely remember raising an eyebrow as they don’t normally do that. So it might just be a slap on the wrist type of thing. Mind you, he did do that a little about Wolffe back in Miller. I think he gets a bit rattled, and he needs to address the argument, not the person.

      #faircomment seeing how he’s a QC 🙂

    260. manandboy says:

      Some are being fooled, some are not. What is key, is that Johnson/Cummings are trying to pull a fast one on the electorate. In other words, Johnson & Cummings are nothing more than cowboys, attempting a rip-off.

      “Johnson’s schoolboy manoeuvre of sending an unsigned, photocopied letter requesting an extension (as mandated by the so-called Benn act), together with a signed one encouraging the EU to refuse that request, shows just how contemptuous he is of a law passed by Britain’s sovereign parliament.
      Although his lawyers probably ensured that his conduct did not violate the letter of the law, it certainly violated the spirit of the law.”

    261. Ghillie says:

      ScotRenewables @ 12.09 pm

      I am now on it!

      Funnily enough I was going to go straight to Nana’s links just now but thought I’d give Wings one last chance.

      Glad i saw your post – that is just the nudge I needed!

      There are so many excellent Indy sites and articles to follow but by the time I’ve scoured Wings btl it is time to get on with other things.

      Heading straight over to Indyref2 now and Wee Ginger Dug. And Scot goes Pop – to hear a voice I have had always respected in the past.

      I won’t give up on Wings. There are too many great posters. Just won’t be my first port of call and so much dross to skid over.

      As for Stuart’s continuing line of personal reasoning – I utterly disagree. Chris’s cartoons are always good though.

      Love to Nana. Her links added such alot to this site. A real loss to Wings.

      See you over on indyref2 🙂

    262. Iain mhor says:

      @Unionist Media-BDSMC

      #1 is a non starter, that would require a complete rewrite of the Scotland Act and more importantly, in doing so, invalidate UK Parliamentary Sovereignty. I mean, yeah what’s not to like, but no, not going to happen for the same reasons.

      #2 Alex Salmond already proposed that the first time around. It garnered (checks notes) no support based on some kind of principle of invalidating UK Parliamentary Sovereignty or somesuch.

      Membership of the EU, the EEC, EFTA, ECSC Common markets and many similar projects, have always been on a shoogly peg and “divisive” because they all have one failing – they all threaten, in some way, UK Parliamentary Sovereignty.

      There is a bit of a thread running through UK politics, it is the root cause of so many, many problems. Perhaps best summed up as “Dieu et mon droit” – which concept existed before there was even such a thing as a UK Parliament for it to apply to.
      As soon as there was though, it settled down comfortably within it, like an old dog in front of the fireplace – never a stray cinder to dislodge it.

    263. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Cubby & Liz,

      When I started reading this website it was because: “Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary.

      Nowhere did I see Wings Over Scotland being marked out as a slavish cheer-leader for the SNP. Did you?

      I tore my Labour membership up after Tony Blair joined the Iraq War and started killing cripples in the UK.

      At that time a brave Alec Salmond stood against the Iraq War when it was NOT fashionable. A highly principled leader. So I joined the SNP.

      A couple of years ago, I cut my SNP card in half after Fiona “my door is closed” Hyslop shafted a charity one of my friends helped to start.

      BUT, I still vote SNP as I want Scottish Independence.

      The huffy few on here who tut and moan are best to take the high road. Don’t let the door catch yer erse of the way out.

      Those SNP stalwarts that are still in the game are ENTIRELY justified to be a wee bit paranoid. Yes the MSM is horrendously bias and anti-SNP. Is that not why Stuart Campbell started his WoS website? To balance out the media a little.

      However, anyone who wants the SNP to be idolised by an uncritical website is stupid.

      Right now, here in Scotland, we need to be smarter than Dominic Cummings. Against all odds the Downing Street psycho and his glove puppet Boris have brought the Tory Party and the UK to is knees. How Cummings got past any security vetting is an utter mystery.

      The webmaster at WoS has a brilliant brain and is a logistic genius that cuts through the carp and PROPOSES a way we can secure IndyRef2 AND Scottish Independence.

      But the SNP will not listen to the polling. It insists on SAVING ENGLAND FROM BREXIT.

      Just take a look at Chris Cairns’ cartoon at the top of this thread!

      Is there any ONE of those political parties INSIDE that fictional pub that gives a rats ar5e about Scotland?

      NOPE.

      Even at 2.11am on Monday 21st October 2019, London Labour are about to SELL OUT SCOTLAND and join the Tories in the voting lobbies to secure the LABOUR list of demands.

      SO WHY OH WHY ARE THE SNP NOT EVEN CONSIDERING LETTING ENGLAND GO?

      THE SNP’s first duty is to secure a section 30 order (ironclad in irrevocable legislation).

      THE SNP’s NEXT AND MAIN DUTY IS TO GET US INDYREF2 AND WIN IT.

      The DUP sold what souls they had for £10 billion from the Theresa May. Boris threw them under a bus, but at least they got a lot of money for their infrastructure projects.

      Labour already had 14 of their MPs vote WITH Boris Johnson or abstained last Saturday.

      Later today, London Labour will sell out Scotland to get what the Labour Party wants.

      It would be a helluva difficult thing to get Ian Blackford to negotiate for a watertight Section 30, but if not now, then it will be never.

      Think about that. Never, ever will we get a Section 30 chance again.

      The British State has never been so weak. At any other time they would NOT allow Scotland to have another Independence referendum.

      This is not an ANTI-SNP issue. It may be an ANGRY-WITH-SNP matter, but park that.

      We need to get Hamish the Lion’s paws on that Section 30 Order.

      There is a VERY NARROW WINDOW where Boris and his cronies WILL grant Scotland a Section 30 order.

      Please listen to Stuart. Read some of these articles again, and again and again until you GET IT.

    264. Sandy says:

      Brian D @ 11.27 pm.
      My spelling is not too bad. Used to get 10 out of 10 at primary. However, medical terms were not high on the agenda. Did study Latin and some Greek in senior years but not to the extent of the buffoon currently in the news.
      Phonetics come in handy sometimes.

    265. twathater says:

      If you think the arguments on here just now are annoying try explaining this to voters
      https://twitter.com/jammach/status/1185992322036748294

      FFS please somebody explain how this PC lunacy is going to get us independence , or are ALL these twatterers , yoons ,plants , 77th brigade or just SNP BAAAADERS We are fucked

    266. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sandy.

      The word I always have to check is “diarrhoea”.

      8=)

    267. Sinky says:

      Excellent stuff from Joanna Cherry on Radio Scotland at 7.40 this morning. Well worth a listen.

    268. Cubby says:

      Crazycat@10.55pm

      My comment was not aimed at you. Your comment was not read by me when I was posting. Check the times. Apart from that there is no reason that my comment should apply to your post as it makes complete sense.

    269. Cubby says:

      Catalonia Protests

      Demonstrators throw bags of rubbish towards Spanish government Building.

    270. Proud Cybernat says:

      “Think about that. Never, ever will we get a Section 30 chance again.”

      Ach away and gie yourself a talkin’ to. And I’m no SNP member or acolyte.

    271. Abulhaq says:

      Politicians of all parties when unbound are ultimately self-serving. Scotland must have a constitution that clearly restricts their powers and prevents situations such as we have now.
      Sovereignty is ultimately exercised through the electoral ballot box.
      Nationalists should be actively advocating a GE.
      One trick referendums, we know well, simply suck!

    272. Tam the Bam. says:

      Sinky @ 7-46

      I agree..she was excellent.

      Thought Gary Robertson gave the Scots toryboy Brodie a well-deserved roasting.

    273. Tam the Bam. says:

      *Bowie…not Brodie.

    274. Willie says:

      To change tack a little readers may be aware that total Scotch whisky sales are set to fall nearly 5% over the next twelve months. Applied against £4.65m of sales in 2017 ( HMRC supplied figures ) that ISA significant loss.

      But if Trump’s negotiation team post Brexit get their way to allow US distillers to produce and market whisky they can call Scotch then Scottish production could plummet by another five or ten percent.

      Of course it might not be in the Westminster gift to sanction the diminution or removal of Intellectual Property rights to the name Scotch but our friend Trump is trying.

      And in terms of branding, has anyone noticed the explosion in some of the supermarkets as they rebrand all, or nearly all of the meat products in Union Jacks.

      In an attempt at Uber Britishness do you think ditching the Saltire will help Scottish producers, and for that consumers wanting to buy Scottish product.

      These are but a few of the brutal issues that are coming our way. Economic destruction with the concomitant loss of jobs.

      Hard tack indeed for the farmers, distillers, transport companies, bottlers, packagers, engineering support companies and all involved in our food and drink industry.

      And so Scotland the Impoverished awaits us.

      All hail our economic destruction as the Kingdom of eternal union with England awaits us.

    275. winifred mccartney says:

      If the snp were to get into bed with the Tories in return for S30 many many would not vote for them (and rightly so in my opinion) and even if the Tories promised a S30 does anyone really believe they would deliver it. Remember if BJ’s lips are moving he is lying – he is a professional liar and would sell his granny in a heartbeat.

    276. Giving Goose says:

      Please see the latest Lord Ashcrodt polling on attitudes from England towards Scotland (and NI).
      Very interesting.

    277. Willie says:

      Meanwhile apple farmers in Kent and other apple growing areas are having their own problem.

      Seems that with the reduction of EU workers to date 16 million apples or about 1,400 tonnes have been left to rot because the farmers couldn’t secure workers to pick the fruit.

      Not sure what an apple is worth to a farmer but the NFU in the SE are concerned for their mrmbers.

      Could Labour shortages impact Scottish fruit and vegetable growers. Hell no,a rotting crop with restrictions to sale in Europe could never happen.

      Wake up SNP this is a holocaust coming our way .

      Or maybe Scotland needs this economic destruction as form of national self flaggelation

    278. Heartsupwards says:

      no Stu you’re wrong, you know you’re wrong and I won’t waste my time reading you’re tirades any longer. What a waste of a good pro-independence website. I find it difficult to believe that it is still the real Stu writing this balderdash. Shame.

    279. Old Pete says:

      If the SNP get in to bed with the Tories then two members and 6 votes will no longer be with them from my family. Stupid idea and they would never win Independence by doing it, political suicide to support this vile Tory government. Short term gain but long term catastrophe for the SNP, such a stupid idea.

    280. Cubby says:

      Al – Stuart @12.12am

      Gonna no dae that.

      I see you referenced me at the top of that post. A post I did not read and will not read any of your posts due to your previous personal insults towards me.

    281. Cod says:

      “As we’ve pointed out before, the SNP’s mandate for a second indyref is premised on Brexit”

      Is it, though?

      Scottish Parliament elections May 2016 – SNP win, with 46.5% of the popular vote and 63 of the 129 seats (with a 6 seat increase in constituency seats remember, only upset by the loss of AM seats to the Tories)

      EU referendum was not held until 23 June 2016. Now, I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I certainly didn’t vote SNP in the May election on the basis, or not, of the result of the EU referendum. I voted SNP because they are the party who’s sole existence is predicated on getting independence for Scotland. And I would wager I am not alone in that.

      Which means the SNPs mandate is based on the support it gets from the Scottish electorate, rather than an individual issue.

      As to the Tory deal – I’ve said it before, and it was ignored, but the fact is it would have been a wasted effort which would have backfired spectacularly. Johnson would not have done a deal because he wants to exit the EU without a deal. He doesn’t need SNP support for that – it would actually hurt his chances of a no deal exit. And then you would have seen many, many “SNP Betray Voters” headlines in the papers and on TV. It wouldn’t even matter it wasn’t true – readers of this site should know better than anyone, hardly anyone reads beyond the fold.

      As to the testing the S30 in court route – does nobody think that the SNP, with bright legal minds like Joanna Cherry, has not already considered this route? And that there just conceivably might be a reason for the lack of court action so far on the issue? No?

    282. Willie says:

      And how many know that Scotland contract bottles bulk spirits for other countries

      Tranporting let us say bulk vodka from Sweden,bottling here gives revenue that optimises bottling plant economics.

      All part of the current seamless interface that the cross border transference of goods and services facilitates.

      Think car parts, or oil industry equipment or the multiplicity of other goods and services and one gets a glimpse of exactly what cutting oneself off from a harmonised free border market is really going to involve.

      And if Johnson and his ilk have their way it could be with no deal.

      Ah the tens of millions wasted on the compensation to Eurotunnel and the ferry companies without ships.

      Don’t we in Scotland just love our choice of government in Westminster.

      How low can we go. Well maybe we could do well to try and conceptualise in a contempory setting, our neighbours in Ireland during The Famine or Scotland during the Clearances.

    283. Breeks says:

      Can I make a suggestion Rev Stu?

      How about inviting some SNP leaders, or indeed other leaders, to a BTL question and answer session. Say for an hour or half an hour, we can submit questions and our guest has an unmolested chance to answer them.

      I would dearly like to know what Joanna Cherry thinks about Scotland’s Sovereignty, and why it seems a taboo subject to Scottish politicians, while it’s the living embodiment of Scotland’s Legal system.

      I would dearly like to know how adamant Ian Blackford is that Scotland will not be removed from Europe against its will. On what basis, and through which mechanism will it be prevented.

      Give it some thought mibees Rev Stu? An live online interview with BTL questions… ok, so maybe we’d need the questions in advance to stop it going mental, but we could send open questions to a chair person to select forward the question to a live BTL conversation. A kind of online question time… Too daft?

      Maybe see if we can build some bridges and allay some misunderstandings before acrimony and exasperation does irreparable damage.

      Any thoughts?

    284. Colin Alexander says:

      I think Kezia spoke a bit about the psychology of being a high profile politician and for once she hit the nail on the head: They stop listening to ANY criticism. They build a shell, like a crab.

      The SNP have had 12 years in power. They stopped listening to criticism years ago. They live in their own SNP shells.

      The SNP are wrapped up in UK politics, playing the Westminster game. They are now behaving exactly like the British Labour Party in Scotland where repeated criticism and frustration from voters was met with accusations, criticisms and insults. Just like Labour, the SNP have become a party too used to power. A party who see maintaining THEIR dominance as the number 1 goal. A party who has forgotten what they were created and exist to do: free Scotland from the British Empire.

      A party run by SPAds, not run by champions of Scottish independence.

      The SNP are a party of the British State. Westminster SNP. Westminster devolution SNP. They revel in their role as pillars of the British Establishment and their “strong voice at Westminster”.

      I now skip stories about what Ian Blackford said. Like people skip my comments. Same auld sh.

      My allegiance is to Scotland. My goal is independence for Scotland: The SNP’s goal is stopping the UK leaving the EU.
      We are on different paths these days. I now regard the SNP as a hindrance to independence.

      People are becoming increasingly frustrated and disillusioned and already drifting away. The SNP don’t care, as long as they see a majority vote for them. Jobs for the (men / women or however they self-identify) politicians of the SNP.

      I respect people’s right to keep voting for the SNP now the SNP don’t prioritise indy, as people voted for British Labour for 50 years after they turned their backs on socialism.

      You make your choices I’ll make mine.

      Remember to have your photo-id, and get all the pro-indy supporters from the housing schemes of Scotland to have their passports and driving licences ready, if a vote for indy ever comes, cos that’s going to be the situation in the coming months under the Empire.

    285. ScotsRenewables says:

      Breeks,

      What you say sounds modestly sensible but the SNP will never agree at any level now as they will see this site as damaging to the party – witness the mainstream media now getting hold of the gender ID issue – where do you think they got their first heads-up about this? Probably this site.

      Meanwhile, Stu is almost certainly going to get vastly less funding from his next fundraiser, which jeapordises the project to put a WBB thorough every door in Scotland.

      Stu, you may believe you are 100% right and the rest of us are idiots, but did you not forsee the damage this would do to Wings? Bit of a crystal balls-up there IMO.

    286. ScotsRenewables says:

      Coco

      now the SNP don’t prioritise indy

      Good grief! I presume you didn’t watch any of the SNP Autumn conference? Independence was very much uppermost.

      You are just an annoying wee trollbot – no-one listens to you, everyone hates you, fuck off and eat some worms.

    287. Cod says:

      @Colin Alexander

      Copy that post, and keep it somewhere safe, and in 12 months time, dust it off and see how accurate it was.

      By then, the SNP will have asked for, and been refused, a Section 30, and then will have gone to court to test that refusal ( I think they should probably have done that two years ago, but I’m not a QC or a legal or constitutional expert, while the SNP have quite a few).

      The SNP are still about independence. But, they still have a country to run, not all the voters of which supports them or independence – in fact, given the previous referendum result, one could clearly state that the majority of the people they govern do not support independence, more recent polls notwithstanding. They have to be a government of all, not a government of their own supporters only.

    288. Jack Murphy says:

      Giving Goose said at 10:28 am:
      “Please see the latest Lord Ashcrodt polling on attitudes from England towards Scotland (and NI).
      Very interesting.”

      Here’s one of the many links to that Poll:

      ” More than three quarters of Conservative leave voters in England would rather the UK exited the European Union than Scotland remained part of the UK, according to new polling from Lord Ashcroft…….”

      From Holyrood Magazine today:
      https://tinyurl.com/y3b4e2fk

    289. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “No offence but this idea always seemed like a dead end to me, I don’t understand how you even got to the stage of putting it forward as some practical possibility. It’s not something the tories would even offer the SNP as it’d be too toxic from their perspective as well. Working with a party dedicated to breaking up the precious United Kingdom? Forget it. Too many of their voters would hate it.”

      The only problem with your argument is that it flies in the face of all the actual polling evidence, which shows the precise opposite to what you assert.

    290. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “all the section 30’s and mandates in the world won’t solve the problem. a referendum where better together mk 2 can say “you are voting for a hard border with England” is unwinnable.”

      Except we’ve polled on it and actually most people aren’t very bothered. How often does the average person cross the border?

    291. Colin Alexander says:

      Cod

      I dearly wish I will be proved to have got it all wrong and that I will be here in a year or two’s time celebrating independence and eating humble pie about my previous scorn for the SNP under Ms Sturgeon’s leadership.

      We’ll see what the future brings.

    292. finnz says:

      The SNP leveraging their unique position at Westminster is something I would rather they carried out instead of this endless talk of VONC or GEs, or endless amendments to motions that further confuses the issue.

      They have the numbers to extract major concessions from the Government. Just ask for one. The power to hold binding referendums transferred to the Scottish Parliament.

      Just do it.

    293. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’d love to read the article you’d have written had the MSM printed something like this a year ago”

      Something like what, exactly?

    294. Bill Glen says:

      The SNP Will NOT be in an alliance with the DUP to stop Brexit and kill independence.they are doing what they have alway’s done on Brexit, Fighting for the 62% that voted remain, but it would appear that like the Unionist media, you tend to ignore that part,, Just Because the DUP and the SNP are voting on the Same issue does not make them Any kind of alliance,,

    295. Ali says:

      I reckon Brexit means hard border becomes the number one issue in Indyref2, overtaking the still not resolved (in the minds of the voting population) currency question. I think taking a deal with the Tories to accept something Scotland doesn’t want on top of the unresolved currency question and a potential hard border with England means Indyref2 would be unwinnable. I’m not sure that makes me an idiot, although I understand that anyone’s disagreeing with you makes it so from your perspective.

    296. lurking idiot says:

      “The only problem with your argument is that it flies in the face of all the actual polling evidence, which shows the precise opposite to what you assert.”

      Stu, the polling evidence is a fair point but the tories haven’t offered a deal to the SNP yet and I think there must be barriers in their way of doing so.

      The main one I imagine is they’ve campaigned successfully (in Scotland) on being unionists and won seats on that basis, so they need to please that current Scottish subset of their voters. It isn’t a majority of their voters for sure but that’s not something I imagine English tories would be willing to upset. Any wrong move that would risk alienating the Scottish unionist vote just doesn’t seem like a possibility at this stage. I’m sure a substantial majority of English tory voters don’t give a fuck about Scotland as the polling shows but I’m sure the party is aware that upsetting the Scottish unionists could risk what little seats they have left up here. Seats that must surely be on a knife edge by now.

      They don’t want to be seen going behind the backs of the Scottish tories (MPs & MSP’s) and doing deals with the SNP. It’s almost like the backpeddling we saw when Corbyn and McDonnell were seen as being soft on the Scottish independence question. SLab piped up about it and they backpeddled at hyperspeed just because it looked bad. The Scottish and English parties (con or lab) just don’t want to be seen stepping on each other’s toes, they know it looks bad. Only doing a deal with the SNP from the UK tories point of view wouldn’t just be stepping on the toes of Scottish tories, it’d be like stabbing them in the back.

      Now if the UK tories really didn’t care about their Scottish counterparts and just wanted to get Brexit over the line and damage the SNP in the process then I think actually succeeding to do a deal with the SNP would be a really good move from their point of view. That same stigma of “doing a deal with the tories” that the lib dems attained would rub off onto the SNP too and the rot would set in fast. People would be talking about SNP betrayal and it would surely damage them in the polls. I’d actually be impressed if the UK tories were self-aware enough to weaponise their own toxicity like that. It’d be a win-win, get Brexit done while damaging the SNP.

      It won’t happen though, it’s just too risky on the Scottish front and the UK tories are too concerned with stemming the flow of lost votes north of the border. They’ll not upset their unionist base up here by shaking hands with the SNP.

    297. Gary says:

      Firstly, NONE of this will ever happen.

      BUT, if it did..then the SNP would bear the legacy of being known as having done a deal with the Tories to ‘betray the rest of the UK’ to get Indy and Labour would milk that…forever. It would kill them as a party permanently.

      Additionally, SNP (or anyone else for that matter) can only vote on what is in front of them.

      It’s one thing to say that VOTERS would be willing to do this but NO political party would ever do it, they’d be finished.

      These thought experiments ALWAYS assume that politics somehown happens in a vacuum, it simply doesn’t. This can’t, won’t and will not ever happen. Any solution to these problems needs to have more than practicality, it needs to have satisfactory POLITICAL outcomes for all involved (ie the parties, not the voters)

      These thoughts are imaginative and technically possible, just not POLITICALLY possible..

    298. Roderick Stewart says:

      Sorry but I’m not at all keen on a situation where UK is out of EU and Scotland is out of UK but in EU.

      Imagine the border problems – makes the current NI discussions piss-easy to solve.

      I want to see an independent Scotland in the EU and rump-UK in the EU. The only way to do this is to stop Brexit first, then go for indeyref2.

      Alternatively, can we ask Ireland to annexe Scotland?

    299. Stoker says:

      Bored with Twitter i came over to WOS for a gander but found a load of goslings chirping away at each other unaware of the sharks circling below them. Lovely! Am away back to safer waters, less shark-infested.:))

      Btw, i’ll leave you all with the most important & best comment on this thread. Couldn’t have put it any better myself. Bullseye!

      Al-Stuart wrote on 21 October, 2019 at 2:12 am:

      “When I started reading this website it was because: “Wings Over Scotland is a (mainly) Scottish political media digest and monitor, which also offers its own commentary. Nowhere did I see Wings Over Scotland being marked out as a slavish cheer-leader for the SNP.”



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