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The ugly game

Posted on March 12, 2019 by

Tonight sees what’s likely to be a highly-charged Scottish Cup quarter-final replay at Ibrox Stadium. Defeat will effectively end the losing side’s season, and games between the participants, Aberdeen and Rangers International, have tended to be fierce affairs ever since the latter club was formed in controversial circumstances in 2012, with this season’s clashes already having seen numerous red cards.

(Mainly for the home team’s temperamental striker Alfredo Morelos.)

Football authorities will be hoping for a minimum of flashpoints on the field which might lead to repeats of shocking recent scenes of abuse and violence from spectators, which have prompted the nation’s media to wring its hands in theatrical angst and demand that something be done.

The public’s view on the subject, meanwhile, has remained absolutely consistent.

By a margin of three-to-one, voters support the proposals being driven by SNP MSP James Dornan to introduce “strict liability”, which would punish clubs for the actions of their supporters with consequences far more substantial than the trivial fines the SFA and SPFL currently impose, including the docking of points.

(A sanction which is in fact already available to Scottish football’s governing bodies, but is normally only applied to clubs in the lower leagues.)

People probably won’t, however, be expecting their views on strict liability to count for anything, because the clear wishes of the public were repeatedly and comprehensively ignored over the last attempt to solve Scottish football’s crowd-behaviour problems, the hugely popular Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act.

 And voters have an opinion on that too.

By more than 3:1, poll respondents thought it had been a mistake for the opposition parties at Holyrood to unite to repeal OBFA last year. And on both questions, as previously, the view was shared right across the spectrum, with fans of every team and non-supporters alike all firmly behind strict liability and against the repeal of OBFA.

Just a quarter of Celtic fans – in whose name most opposition to OBFA was invoked – think its abolition was a good idea. Only 17% of supporters outside Glasgow wanted it gone, and a tiny 8% of non-football fans.

(The alternative plan “fit for 2018” which Scottish Labour promised to bring forward to tackle sectarianism at football after repealing OBFA has, to everyone’s astonishment, entirely failed to materialise 15 months later.)

As we’ve observed before, there has never been another example in the history of the Scottish Parliament where a law was so overwhelmingly popular with the public yet uniformly castigated and eventually overturned, in direct contravention of what voters of ALL parties and all demographics wanted, without a murmur of protest in the media.

(Because the Scottish press salivates like a frenzied pack of Pavlov’s dogs every time supporters misbehave, and would be robbed of far too many lurid, juicy stories were sectarianism and violence ever to be ended.)

So while the Scottish public cries out for action over the blights of sectarianism and violence that still sour the nation’s favourite sport, those who profit from those curses – its two biggest clubs, the media and opposition politicians – will continue to reject it. It looks like Scotland’s shame will be with us for the forseeable future.

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    324 to “The ugly game”

    1. Cubby says:

      You will wait a long time for Kelly and the Labour Party to do anything. What did they ever do when they ran Scotland before the SNP – nothing. The media love it as well. It gives them something to fill up their news programmes instead of reporting on important things like the ongoing looting of Scotlands wealth by Westminster.

    2. Jardo says:

      Just ban (senior?) football/soccer in Scotland. There’s none of them any good at the game. Any ‘players’ who perform to a decent standard can go elsewhere… as they do anyway 😉

    3. John Lowe says:

      Exactly why Labour especially wanted the OBFA. Keep the people distracted and divided so they and their pals the TORIES. Can return us to the 2 party monopoly were they run us and our country down.

    4. Liam says:

      What Jardo says.

      Vastly overrated game.

    5. Giving Goose says:

      In a future Scotland I would like to see the ability to take people like James Kelly to some sort of panel to answer for their actions while in political positions, with sanctions an option.
      Let’s be clear, if anyone is harmed as a result of the removal of the OBFA, then Mr Kelly should be found in contempt of the public viewpoint and responsible for harm done.

    6. mountain shadow says:

      And whilst we talk about sectarian bigots, it appears that Brexit for the 65 million citizens of the UK is in the sole hands of Arlene Foster.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      The problem is that many of the papers are staffed by fans of these teams, and do their utmost to defend them on their pages. Sectarianism is slowly dying in Scotland but not fast enough.

      Other cities in England have had similar problems, especially those who had ports and docks just like Glasgow and Edinburgh.
      They however have in the main, consigned the religious element to the past.

      Just how a football club which is run as a business is seen as representing your values I am not sure, but what I do know is that in indirectly representing your club as one side of the religious divide other is profoundly good for business.

      Yet Ibrox and Parkhead are full of supposedly devoted people, who neither attend Church or Chapel nor take an active part in the daily life of such entities. They will however go to their respective stadiums and join in the chanting and singing against the other beliefs.

      It seems illogical, yet serves the function of being easily ruled by division. Hence why many politicians use it to promote themselves. Arlene Foster has been to Ibrox on a few occasions.

      One day we will learn. One day.

    8. heraldnomore says:

      ‘Only 17% of supporters outside Glasgow wanted it gone,’

      That’s a bit of a step you’ve taken there Stu. Should it not be better phrased as ‘ Only 17% of supporters of teams other than the Ugly Sisters wanted it gone’?

      I completed that survey. The Other Club that I follow, is in Glasgow. Football exists beyond the Premiership, beyond the SPFL, and the punters all have opinions.

    9. While I agree with the stance the SNP had on the OBFA, and generally support Strict Liability…

      I gave up attending Scottish football once I had the joy of seeing Hibs FINALLY win the Scottish Cup. From that point, it became impossible to ignore how badly the game is ran, where the benefit of two clubs who are the focus of Scottish ‘publications’ is the only thing that matters to the imbeciles that run it.

      You can’t expect anything to be be done unless the SFA is wholly replaced by a different (and probably European) group, that wants to create the greatest standards across the board that it can.

    10. Robin says:

      What gets me most is the amount of people out there who sit and comment on twitter, sports pages and other news feeds saying why hasn’t the government done anything about it?

      I try my hardest to explain that although OBFA may not have been the best legislation, it should never have been repealed!

      It gave the knuckle draggers carte blanche to go hell for leather with their wee song sheets!

      I’m not singling out any team specifically but we all know where the majority of them come from and it ain’t in the NE of Scotland.

      Sure we have plenty of them up there that make their weekly pilgrimages but I’ve never seen a sash wearing flute band or the other mob doing their version anywhere in Aberdeenshire.

      Anyone who thinks this shit is not connected is deluded. Anyone who thinks its not all clubs who have a problem, are also deluded.

      Its just some clubs seem to have an element of core support that still differentiate from others based on the school they went to! Its an idealism that I don’t understand and never ever want to nor want my kids to have to deal with.

    11. galamcennalath says:

      I’ve always found the whole thing puzzling. I’ve never been to a football match, certainly never will now. Common sense tells me the majority of spectators will be law abiding citizens wanting to follow the sport. However, why does football uniquely attract groups who actually want to misbehave?

      If someone was to invent a new spectator sport which was accompanied by ritualised crowd bad behaviour, how long would it last? It would all be shut down and banned. I’m not suggesting that solution, but it does highlight the ridiculousness of the situation.

      I would have thought “strict liability” was an obvious move.

    12. Artyhetty says:

      I wonder if there is anything the Scottish government could do, like maybe introduce an act to make it illegal to shout abuse and or drink at football matches.

      They could call it the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act. I am sure the British Nationalist parties and the Greens will be calling for that to happen, yes, that’s right isn’t it, because they wouldn’t want to see violence and sectarianism abuse at the football, now would they?

    13. yesindyref2 says:

      I don’t know about the clubs being docked points, couldn’t they just dock the supporters?

    14. Abulhaq says:

      Sectarianism is a handy tool for the Unionists to proclaim Scots as unfit for self-rule. Divisive, controlling, mendacious? Us? We only do the master’s bidding. We’re on the square, we keep the ‘faith’.

    15. Capella says:

      The SNP could certainly put an OBFA pledge in their next manifesto. Looks like it would garner mass support.

    16. Fergus Green says:

      The solution is to dock points and make clubs play behind closed doors, with no TV coverage. Nothing else will work, as long as the SFA is run by the footballing equivalents of Murdo Fraser and James Kelly.

    17. Gordon says:

      How about shark filled moats round the pitch?
      Could be good entertainment at the many boring games on offer.
      To be serious, paying peanuts to stewards is never going to get them to risk physical harm.
      Lifetime bans on those who attack players + jail time needs to be mandatory.
      Behaviour at football grounds is part of the reason I follow ice hockey now. Players knock lumps off each other and shake hands at the end of the game. Crowds appear to be 50/50 male/female and I’ve seen babies days old at a game.
      Way to go.

    18. Cubby says:

      The clubs could make a start by introducing a ban on national flags. It’s a CLUB football match not an INTERNATIONAL match. It’s supposed to be Scottish football but you hardly ever see a saltire. There is no justification for British, Northern Irish or Irish flags. BAN THEM. Offenders to be banned for life.

      Also ban any sectarian flags and those who bring them to games.

      In practical terms easy to do.

      Will this happen – nae chance. Too many bigots in charge at the clubs.

    19. Artyhetty says:

      The Britnats were desperate that the OBFA be repealed because it was effective in reducing violence and abuse as well as drink fueled violence outside the grounds. There’s a reason for the Britants’ insistence the act was forced out, it’s called divide and rule.

      When idiots go all cave men at the football, in Scotland, it portrays Scotland as narrow, small minded, backward, sectarian, scary and to be avoided, to the outside world. Britnat job done.

      A peaceful, forward looking, life affirming, socially responsible Scotland is not acceptable to the Britnats, it doesn’t suit their narrative, it doesn’t suit their motives
      in ensuring Scotland is kept shackled like a rabid dog, fed scraps, bearing rotten teeth, skin and bone, beaten and trodden down into a total wreck.

      The idiots at the football. well some could well be paid provocatuers as well. Put nothing at all past the Britnats!
      They are very experienced and dividing, ruling violently, and conquering a country for their resources.

    20. Bobp says:

      Are we talking about strict liability inside/outside the stadiums , or both?.

    21. Bobp says:

      Good post Artyhetty.sums it all up really.

    22. I comment regularly on the use of Celtic and Rangers as ‘divide and conquer’ fodder for the Brit Nats.
      At the time I called out James I will Not Sit Down Kelly, Murdo The Queen’s Eleven Fraser, and Professor Two Jobs (He was at Glasgow Uni this week wetting himself in the presence of one of his Blue Tory Grand Masters, Jeremy Rhyming Slang insteaed of at his ‘day job (sic) on the Opposition benches at the Scottish parliament) Adam We Are The People former Socialist Republican but Now Arch Right Blue Tory Fascist Tomkins, all three of whom are political rejects on Jobs For The Boys’ Gravy Train.

      Shame on the Greens for backing bigotry and sectarianism.
      I blame them all for the first inevitable death through hatred and psychopathic violence.
      There may be the ‘perfect hat trick’ tonight.
      Rangers penalty, Aberdeen perpetrator sent off, and an Aberdeen disallowed goal.
      A ‘small minority’ of 20,000 Rangers ‘fans’ referrered to by the rest of us as ‘pathological murdering hooligans’,will fill the airwaves with The Billy Boys, No Surrrrenur, and Rool Britannia, under a Yooonian Star.
      From Aberdeen a few hundred knuckledragger ‘Casuals’ will seek out and find Blue soulmates to kick lumps out of each other while terrorising Glasgow citizens and visitors.
      Ranjurs will win by hook or by crook.
      They are the Brit Establishment Club, even in these so called enlightened days.
      They even have an England Hero as manager now.
      Kelly and the Red Tories rely on hateful sectarianism and bigotry to keep their sinking ship afloat.
      And the mugs don’t seem to mind the clubs Boards and Owners making indecent fortunes out of hatred, bigotry, and violence.

    23. Bobp says:

      Gordon 11.43am. Whit! You mean there are nae catlick or proddy ice hockey teams? Dearie me whits the world coming tae.

    24. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 12 March, 2019 at 11:37 am:

      ” … I don’t know about the clubs being docked points, couldn’t they just dock the supporters?”

      I think you miss the whole point there, yesindyref2. The offending supporters already get docked but not by either the clubs or by the football authorities. These may ban the offending supporters from the ground but it is left to the police and the justice system to deal with the offenders and that means it is, as usual, the public that pays for justice being done.

      Charge the clubs with the expense of prosecuting the offenders and charge them more for policing the supporters. When it costs these so called, “Clubs”, which are factually business ventures and when it hits their profits they will take effective action.

    25. Benhope says:

      A couple of weeks ago Professor Tom Devine was interviewed on STV.
      He clearly stated that research had shown that sectarianism had pretty well disappeared from normal life in Scotland in areas like employment and job opportunities because of factors like inter marriage and the increase in secular beliefs.

      All those commentators who constantly parrot ( it`s a society problem not just football )are lying, wrong, wrong, wrong.

      It is very precisely a football problem. Bring in strict liability and confront the 90 minute bigots and the Ugly Sisters.

      Clubs should not be crucified for individuals causing disruption when they manage to evade a steward but held accountable when 5,000 fans are chanting/singing sectarian abuse at someone like Steve Clark.

      Sectarianism in Scotland is very much and almost entirely a football problem.

      SFA and SPFL must show some leadership and grow a pair.

    26. Graeme J McAllan says:

      It has to be strict liabilty, which will NEVER be implemented by the Glasgow Football Authority which is staffed by former players and supporters of the GFA – a proud Scottish tradition of the patients running the asylum 🙁

    27. Millsy says:

      This is not the forum for an intelligent discussion on the causes of hooliganism and /or sectarianism in Scottish Football which has deep roots in the treatment of fellow ‘Brits’ by the London rulers of the UK over centuries .
      Even on the posts on here so far there is a significant level of ignorance /naivete or deliberate obfuscation which obscure the ‘facts’ .
      I do agree with Stu that the OBFA was a step in the right direction to resolving some of the deep-rooted malign influences in our society( Football is only a reflection of what happens elsewhere )and needed tweaked NOT abolished .

    28. Jeff says:

      O/T UK Attorney General; “…unless the UK could prove the EU was acting in bad faith in future, there was “no internationally lawful means of exiting the Protocol’s arrangements, save by agreement.”

      What are we waiting for then? Scotland already has this legal right under international law?

    29. Bob Mack says:

      Strict liability is the way to go. If these clubs were penalised it would not take long before they brought the fans to heel. Finance is everything. Follow the money always.

      As an aside, I still get reports from my family of sectarian singing at a number of Scottish clubs. It is deep rooted.

    30. Jeff says:

      To leave he UK that is!

    31. BrianW says:

      Is James Kelly well know for his time keeping?

      Only he says in that newspaper report that he will be ‘..developing an anti-sectarianism strategy fit for 2018,..’

      Is he still stuck in 2018?

    32. Does anyone really expect to see any sensible legislation to tackle sectarianism any time soon from Labour’s James Kelly?.

      The sensible thing Labour, Tories, Libdems and Greens should have done, if they were unhappy about Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act.

      Would have been to have brought forward their own alternative plans to replacing the act before they voted to abolish it?

      I suspect the temptation for greens along with the three Britnat parties who were quite happy to abolish the OBFA Was to get one over on the Scottish Government

    33. Ian Phillips says:

      Sectarianism sells tickets. As long as it does, it will continue.

    34. euan0709 says:

      Where is James Kelly MSP. Expert in all things Fitbaw and Great Wise One ?

    35. Cubby says:

      O/T sorry so soon.

      Cox the attorney general in Hof Commons today says

      ” it is extremely important to remember that there is always a right to terminate a treaty unilaterally if circumstances fundamentally change. So there is no question we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply”

      So for those naysayers re terminating the Treaty of Union 1706/7 – there you are from the UK govs most senior lawyer.

      Or as Tomkins MSP would say – it’s the law.

    36. Marcia says:

      A Survation poll done about the same time as the Rev’s poll has

      Survation (Scotland)

      Westminster voting

      SNP : 40%
      Con : 24%
      Lab : 23%
      LDem : 8%

      SNP : 49 (+14)
      Con : 5 (-8)
      LDem : 4 (=)
      Lab : 1 (-6)
      Changes with GE2017

    37. Capella says:

      James Kelly is too busy developing Labour’s Finance policy to bother about football now. When Richard Leonard is First Minister, James Kelly will be Finance Minister. Something to look forward to.

    38. Capella says:

      @ Cubby 1:12 pm

      Cox the attorney general in Hof Commons today says

      ” it is extremely important to remember that there is always a right to terminate a treaty unilaterally if circumstances fundamentally change. So there is no question we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply”

      Oh happy day! Can we have this in writing, please?

    39. Bobp says:

      Cubby 1.12pm. Except you Scotland.

    40. Clootie says:

      We must have consequences for anti social behaviour related to religious bigotry. At football, on Orange Walks, in the workplace….everywhere it appears pressure needs to be applied.

      If Scotland is to thrive then the abuse of Drugs, drink and Bigotry must be tackled.

    41. Gordon says:

      Bobp at 12.05
      3 Scottish teams in the Elite league, Fife, Dundee & Glasgow, 1 Irish, 1 Welsh, the rest English.
      Been going for over 4 seasons now and have see one minor incident, an irate Fife fan losing it and his pals sorted him out.
      I despair for Scottish football. Bigotry is on the rise. Sectarian sing from Hearts fans, eh!

    42. Petra says:

      Has anyone contacted James Kelly to request an update on his “alternative plan?” What work has he carried out on this so far? If we can’t get a hold of Kelly maybe Patrick Harvie could tell us how his Labour mates are getting on?

    43. Gordon says:

      Singing! Bugrit.

    44. Eck says:

      Fitba violence and hatred is no really a Scottish thing or a Proddy/Tim thing, it’s a fitba thing. Consider Boca Juniors v River Plate or Fenerbahce v Galatasaray to name but a couple of examples? Is it a tribal thing? Some sort of weird hangover from our neanderthal past?

    45. Robert Louis says:

      Today at just after 1pm, (1303 onwards)

      In reply to Tory MP, Bill Cash, the English Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox said (and this is a verbatim quote)

      …it is extremely important to remember, that their is always a right to terminate a treaty, unilaterally, if circumstances fundamentally change, so there is no question that we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply

      Their you go, Scotgov. Get it done. End the treaty of 1707, unilaterally. the English attorney general says you can. Indeed, he says you have the RIGHT to do so.

    46. Robert Louis says:

      Apologies Cubby, I didn’t see your post above.

    47. Dr Jim says:

      If you went to the Cinema and assulted the person sitting next to you you’d be thrown out,if you verbally abused that person you’d be thrown out, if you threw objects at them you’d be thrown out because when the Cinema charges you an entry fee to watch a film it takes on a legal responsibility

      Many times in the past pubs have been closed by the police and councils using their powers of withdrawal of licence

      Football’s had it’s chance, the clubs have been using sectarianism to advance their ticket sales for the whole of my life, they like the idea of vitriolic hatred it sells tickets, but in that selling of tickets the same rules as Cinemas and Pubs and Disco’s indeed anywhere where a member of the public is charged an entry fee to participate in a public event the law applies but football has always ignored the law because they think they’re too big and too popular and they pay more tax (sometimes) to have that law applied to them

      Some people will argue that supporters will dress up in other clubs colours to cause trouble to enable that club to be punished, so what, that has nothing to do with the law offensive behaviour is offensive behaviour no matter what colour your shirt is, the club has a legal responsibility and if it can’t or won’t find a way to exercise that responsibility that’s what the law is there to do

      Remove their licence and force them to apply to the court to have it reinstated and watch how quickly football decides to clean up its act

      For 70 years I’ve been listening to *Aye but ye cannae because* from football clubs, take away their licences to operate and the so called fans will get it quick and co-operate with the police to remove the element that even they cannot want within their ranks

    48. galamcennalath says:

      Brexit, there are some cracking amendments! Hope they all go to a vote …

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/amendments-to-consider-a-people-s-vote-revoking-article-50-and-scottish-independence-1-5932550

      “Scotland should not be forced to leave the EU against its will and that its “best future” lies in becoming an independent and sovereign member of the EU.”

      ” …. require ministers to authorise a Scottish independence referendum.”

      I assume the object is to have them voted down by WM this making the undemocratic situation clear.

    49. Cubby says:

      Robert Louis@1.36pm

      No problem Robert it is well worth repeating.

      He also subsequently ( in response to Owen Paterson MP ) says “. …… unless there were a fundamental change in circumstance under Article 62 of the Vienna convention of the law of treaties. ”

      The Britnats in London are well aware of this situation. They just do not want Scots to understand their rights.

    50. Baldeagle58 says:

      Cubby says:

      12 March, 2019 at 1:12 pm

      O/T sorry so soon.

      Cox the attorney general in Hof Commons today says

      ” it is extremely important to remember that there is always a right to terminate a treaty unilaterally if circumstances fundamentally change. So there is no question we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply”

      So for those naysayers re terminating the Treaty of Union 1706/7 – there you are from the UK govs most senior lawyer.

      Cubby, how have our SNP MPs responded to that statement from the Attorney General? Do you know?

    51. Dr Jim says:

      Brexiters love banging on about unelected people in the EU when what they mean is England didn’t elect them

      Scotland didn’t elect the Tories or Labour or Lib Dems or DUP
      but they still have more of a say over Scotland than the people we did elect by a huge majority, the SNP

    52. Cubby says:

      Cox then goes on to repeat the statement re article 62 of the Vienna Convention on the law of treaties a further 3 times in response to questions from MPs.

    53. Capella says:

      Debate started and Theresa May croaking ominously. Speaker stated at the beginning that he wasn’t taking any amendments. so he is ruling out the SNP amendment.
      https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b6cf0fc5-ae6f-4672-b8e7-d89603fdf018

    54. ross says:

      leaping a bit on strict liability and a leading question. There are huge percentages for “Don’t know” even under those circumstances.

      If you had got rid of the preamble I would have taken the result more seriously.

      You are well aware of how preambles work. I like your investigative journalism but your latest polling are full of leading questions.

    55. tom kane says:

      Pshew, Stu!

      This is another of those areas where your diligence is beyond refute. But, isn’t it shocking that not a single, well funded MSM news outlet, or national British Broadcaster has gone out and found out, what you have so simply discovered.

      Your questions are clear and uncajoling. You have a breadth of response right across all the clubs. And the only possible conclusion from this work is that all those agencies, and that’s political parties in Scotland too, who took it on themselves to rubbish the OBFA, when it was so welcomed in Scotland, did so for ulterior motives.

      A bit like the BBC stacking a QT audience in Motherwell with radical sectarian views. Perhaps only for an ulterior motive too.

      We really are up against it… People want to see Scotland unable to escape from its sectarian past. Well, they had better get used to it. Because that past does not define us.

    56. I’m considering betting on ‘the perfect hat trick’ to which I alluded earlier.
      The Brit Nats need all the help that they can get.
      The Hootsman and Herald Britland lied online today that May had brokered a deal that would win the day in the HoC.
      Of course she didn’t, but that doesn’t stop or Dead tree Scrollers from pushing the Yoon Cause.

    57. Scottish Steve says:

      When I was younger, other boys would look at me like I was an alien when I said I didn’t support either Celtic or Rangers. They looked at me as if I was an even stranger creature when I said I hated football.

      This kind of shit is partly why I hate the game. I’m not keen on sports in general but if I was, I think I’d choose to watch a more interesting sport than football. I might be gay but watching a bunch of overpaid, sweaty men play with balls while other men shout and scream at them from the stands is not my cup of tea.

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @BrianW says:12 March, 2019 at 12:35 pm:

      ” … Only he says in that newspaper report that he will be ‘..developing an anti-sectarianism strategy fit for 2018,..’
      Is he still stuck in 2018?”

      Stuck in 2018? Kelly is stuck in 1618.

    59. Robert Peffers says:

      @Peter McCulloch says: 12 March, 2019 at 12:38 pm:

      ” … I suspect the temptation for greens along with the three Britnat parties who were quite happy to abolish the OBFA Was to get one over on the Scottish Government.”

      Correct, Peter, but as predicted here on Wings, it has led to such a spectacular backfire that it has blown the calendar head right out through the opposition’s bonnet.

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      In fairness maybe it was too subtle. What do they do to some dogs, like corgis? And presumably the hooligans are mostly male, but don’t have tails …

    61. Cubby says:

      Baldeagle58@2.06pm

      None them were called to speak by The Speaker. HofCommons has now moved on to EU withdrawal agreement with May struggling as her voice has gone south.

    62. Old Pete says:

      Teresa May lying through her teeth. Her croaky voice just makes her speech even worse, think she’s going to lose yet another vote.
      If only voters in Scotland had voted Yes to regain our Independence in 2014, then we would never have been in this UK mess.

    63. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 12 March, 2019 at 1:18 pm:

      ” … Oh happy day! Can we have this in writing, please?”

      We already have it in writing, Capella, it is recorded in Hansard for all time.

    64. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May just admitted that support for Scottish Independence and Irish reunification has increased but at the same time trying to use as blackmail to the HOC it to get her rotten deal through

    65. Nana says:

      That moment when the attorney general of the UK in #brexit debate talking about the #backstop, makes the case for Scotland to hold a second independence referendum to leave the United Kingdom. In England parliament is sovereign, in Scotland, the people are
      video here
      https://twitter.com/MJKIndependent/status/1105463873363165184

    66. Dr Jim says:

      Theresa May by mistake has just included blackmail into *Englands* democracy

    67. Dr Jim says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is a trained lawyer while Theresa May is a trained liar

    68. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says:12 March, 2019 at 1:34 pm:

      ” …it is extremely important to remember, that their is always a right to terminate a treaty, unilaterally, if circumstances fundamentally change, so there is no question that we have a right to exit if those circumstances apply””

      How many times must it be pointed out to you, Robert Louis, that as the people of Scotland are legally sovereign, (it is a basic tenet of Scots law), it is not possible for a Scotland government with a people’s mandate to unilaterally terminate anything.

      If you are legally sovereign your word is law. It really is that simple.

    69. Cubby says:

      May delivering a real rule Britannia speech. She calls subjugating Ireland for centuries a “complex relationship between the countries of these isles”.

      Scots Tory Lamont pops up to ask her to tell the SNP to get lost with any request for an independence vote. Tories who present themselves as bastions of democracy – what a sick joke these people are. These are the same types of people who revelled in invading and killing people throughout the world to create the Brutish Empire – they talk about democracy for themselves at Westminster but implement dictatorships for others.

    70. Breeks says:

      The point being missed by the Attorney General is that the U.K. can exercise it’s sovereign right to walk away from a Treaty, but there are grave consequences when the treaty in question is an Internationally recognised Peace Treaty like the Good Friday Agreement.

      The UK could indeed flout the Good Friday Agreement, but if it did, it would be pilloried by the International Community, and find itself ostracised, sanctioned, and excluded from the global community as appropriate for a rogue or failing state which doesn’t respect its obligations.

      The U.K. could forget about Trade Deals and exports, the end of free movement would occur alright, for all U.K. citizens, and foreign assets would be seized or impounded.

      Reading between the lines, the US is already begininning to telegraph its punches about the peace in Northern Ireland, and Its own roll in the Good Friday Agreement.

    71. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 12 March, 2019 at 2:48 pm:

      ” … In fairness maybe it was too subtle.”

      No, yesindyref2, it wasn’t too subtle – I just chose to ignore it to make a more serious point.

    72. Petra says:

      Thanks for the Cox and National links Nana.

      Video: Jacob-Rees Mogg in “pensive” mood because over and above knowing A50 can be revoked, due to the Scots, he’ll also be well aware of the implications of Cox’s speech for Scottish Independence and thinking to himself that Cox is a real fool.

      As to T May with an IQ of 180 versus Nicola Sturgeon with an IQ of 80 I can’t wait to see them going head to head when the Independence debates commence. May (and Davidson) would be slaughtered hence they’ll no doubt trundle out Gove to replace her. I can also see thousands of EU politicians (millions Worldwide) laughing their heads off at the very thought of Treeza May being more intelligent than Nicola Sturgeon. She’s, May, been accused of being deluded and that seems to fit the bill of her seemingly suffering from delusions of grandeur. High time that she was frogmarched off to bedlam in a straitjacket. Long overdue in fact.

    73. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      At the moment, I can’t decide which is the bigger turn-off, protected sectarianism in the beautiful game or Brexit debates (and incidental Scottish put-downs) in the Palace of Fools.

      (Though from the latter you can tell how nervous the Tories are getting over the adverse effect it can have on Scottish public opinion.)

    74. Another Union Dividend says:

      Sky News cuts off Ian Blackford HoC speech mid stream while BBC News doesn’t even broadcast Ian Blackford’s speech.

      Some balance from our state broadcasters on a day when Batty Jill Stephenson complaining in local press of SNP bullying the BBC.

    75. Baldeagle58 says:

      Another Union Dividend says:

      12 March, 2019 at 3:39 pm

      Sky News cuts off Ian Blackford HoC speech mid stream while BBC News doesn’t even broadcast Ian Blackford’s speech.

      Some balance from our state broadcasters on a day when Batty Jill Stephenson complaining in local press of SNP bullying the BBC.

      Typical ‘unbiased’ British State Broadcaster then!
      Is there a link available to the whole of Ian Blackford’s speech?

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      No worries.

    77. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says:12 March, 2019 at 3:32 pm:

      ” … you can tell how nervous the Tories are getting over the adverse effect it can have on Scottish public opinion.”

      Indeed so, Robert, and when people get nervous they tend more towards silly blunders. These blunders are now coming thick and fast. It certainly looks like the Westminster Establishment is both very nervous and very accident prone.

    78. Tom Busza says:

      Anyone recording Ian Blackford’s speech in HoC at the moment?

    79. Tom Busza says:

      It’s good. Very moving.

    80. call me dave says:

      Hey! Parliament tv just kicked me off air as Blackford was in full flow. Cant get back in after numerous attempts and all my other open live links working fine.

      Shurley schome mishtake? 🙁

      Ah! Back in again lost about 5 minutes there.

    81. sinky says:

      Blackford live on BBC Parliament Channel but finishing now.

      Meanwhile The Ferret tackles May’s claim.

      #Factcheck: The Prime Minister claimed there was a £1,400 dividend of UK membership for Scots. We gave this a new verdict on our scale: Unsupported

      https://theferret.scot/theresa-may-uk-dividend-fact-check/

    82. Tom Busza says:

      “The world looks on in wonder as to what the U.K. is going to do” Ian Blackford HoC 12/3/19

      “Stop the world, Scotland wants to get on” (Winnie Ewing) Ian Blackford HoC 12/3/19

    83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Tom Busza @ 16:04,

      This whole business makes an absolute nonsense (among other things) of the oft-repeated Red Tory claim that Scottish independence is inward-looking.

    84. Macart says:

      Pretty certain Ian Blackford left the chamber with few doubts there. It’s up to them of course, but were I in their shoes? I’d take the fella’s words seriously.

      Their choice. 😉

    85. Dr Jim says:

      Ian Blackfords speech was a belter now being followed by Nicky Morgan who is an idiot, ignore the remainers in Scotland she says and think of the people who voted leave, it’s not about percentages she says, eh well yes it is says me and so does democracy, what a stupid woman Nicky Morgan is

    86. Dr Jim says:

      Oooh nearly forgot Jeremy Corbyn replies to Stuart McDonald that Scotland isn’t relevant

      If you had any doubts folks you shouldn’t have now because that was pretty clear

    87. Tom Busza says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland 4.09 pm

      Agreed.

      @Dr Jim 4.12 pm

      Blackford played a belter… May’s face was a picture.

      But why so many green seats visible (on both sides of the “place”) in such an “important” debate?

    88. Any trouble at a match. Both teams should be made to play their next home match without spectators.

    89. Jack Murphy says:

      Ian Blackford MP opening speech may be found here on Parliament TV.
      Just scroll back down to 15:32:01

      https://tinyurl.com/y3jr4fjq

      Courtesy of Parliament TV [Commons]

    90. Jack Murphy says:

      This is a more secure reliable link compared to my 4.26pm one.

      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b6cf0fc5-ae6f-4672-b8e7-d89603fdf018

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @sinky
      Thanks for that ferret fact check link, very useful – bookmarked.

    92. Robin says:

      DR Jim @1.19

      “Some people will argue that supporters will dress up in other clubs colours”

      I’m pretty sure that every single Aberdeen fan I know would rather smash their own balls with a hammer than wear either fitba top from the bigot brothers and I would reckon that would go for the majority of football supporters in general.

    93. Tom Busza says:

      What was she said then? Andrea Jenkyns (Con):
      “Why should we ask the EU for permission to Leave…?”
      The irony

    94. Dr Jim says:

      @Robin 4.34pm

      That position was the argument of the football authorities in Scotland as presented on STV Scotland tonight and BBC Reporting Scotland

      The argument being that not all football supporters are actually supporters of football but supporters of hooliganism
      and how can authorities tell the difference

      My assumption of what they mean is that there are plenty of people who’ll turn up anywhere to any football match wearing any colour of shirt just to be bad baskets because they hope to get away with it as anonymous within the crowd

      I’m sure there are many people who turn up to your teams matches you don’t know and could have come from anywhere and you can’t vouch for them, much as you might wish you could

    95. Heart of Galloway says:

      “If we can’t save the U.K. From itself now is the time to save Scotland – an independent Scotland at the heart of Europe”. Ian Blackford’s parting shot in what was a passionate yet measured speech. May’s deal is doomed. Game on.

    96. cearc says:

      If somebody with the requisite software and skills could do it. It strikes me that a CD of the anit-Scottish comments from the HoC over the last couple of years, that many people don’t see would be quite a powerful campaigning tool.

      Could change some minds about our place in this ‘glorious union’.

    97. Dr Jim says:

      Dominic Grieve says all four of the United Kingdoms nations have been disrespected

      I would have said three of them but OK

    98. manandboy says:

      NEIGHBOURS AND RIVALS
      My tupp’nce worth on the topic of the day.

      Professional football across the globe, thrives on football rivalry. Scotland is no different, nor is it limited to Glasgow. Years ago, Airdrieonians and Albion Rovers were rivals, as were Airdrieonians and Motherwell.
      Neighbours make good rivals in football. And rivalry is very good for the game, at all levels. Indeed in all team sports.

      It’s just that rivalry grows out of culture, and a powerful element of Scotland’s culture for 450 years has been anti-Catholic sectarianism, which, with irish immigration after the so-called ‘Famine'(1845-1849) was given a real turbo-boost. But Scotland’s historic sectarianism is not irish catholic-British protestant sectarianism, though they are mixed, and that too has given centre-stage to the football version. It is the latter which now dominates the sectarian map of Scotland as well as the media, due to its very popular and public nature.

      However, Scotland’s media are not however much interested in rivalry, they prefer sectarianism. The teams at Ibrox and Parkhead are rivals alright. But who cares. It’s the ‘sectarian’ aspect that sells papers and gets attention on TV.

      Furthermore, the SFA is itself weighted along ‘sectarian’ lines. It wouldn’t work if that organisation were made up 50/50 of blue & green. It just happens to be blue, as befits all manifestations of the Establishment in Scotland.

      It’s just a pity that football rivalry in Scotland is so downplayed. But there’s no escaping sectarianism. It’s like today’s heavy rain – it soaks everything. Name me a place in Scotland which is sectarian-dry, there’s not many. We’re in some state for a country looking for Independence, and us all tainted with the cultural poison of sectarianism. Some call it a cancer.

      On a brighter note, Independence will cut the supply of Unionist-fed, politically motivated sectarianism, that great stalwart of British Colonialism, used across the Empire to undermine the indigenous instinct for self-determination and independence. There is real hope in that. No hope in the Union.
      Hey, I gave you a thrupny bit. You owe me a penny. Thanks.

    99. Paul Cochrane says:

      OBFA was such a poorly drafted and shockingly consulted over law that the SNP allowed the thickest politician in Scotland, yes, James Kelly, to get it removed from the statute books. We didn’t listen to the Law Society, Tom Devine, Sociologists and even the UNHRC but blasted right ahead because something “had to be done.” Imagine losing to Kelly.

    100. I’ve tried three times now, twice on Safari and once on Google, following Ian Blackford’s speech at WM this afternoon. His speech jumps from 15.44 and 20secs to 15.46 and 59 seconds obliterating the interruption from Stephen Kerr, my MP.

      https://parliamentlive.tv/event/index/b6cf0fc5-ae6f-4672-b8e7-d89603fdf018?in=15:42:06 Very odd!!!

    101. Strong feeling that a GE is coming down the line. Not sure what will happen re Brexit – post-poned or cancelled

      A GE will not allow EU folks to vote so even if the SNP make their manifesto an Indy ref we will have a hard fight.

      We need an indy ref to get the younger vote and the EU residents vote.

      Hope I’m wrong.

    102. SilverDarling says:

      I like the way the SNP MPs are reinforcing the mandate at every opportunity now. JC was caught off guard badly by Stewart McDonald and May was rightly focussed on and chastised by Ian Blackford in his speech for her habitual smirking derision.

      It will be interesting to see if there will be any support beyond the usual sympathetic handful for their amendment – if it is chosen that is.

      On a football theme, hopefully, they will capitalise on all the own goals the Tories have been scoring in their speeches. Also, it seems Dougie Ross will be attending the birth of his first child tonight instead of voting. Too late to get a proxy vote apparently.

    103. SilverDarling says:

      @ Meg Merilees

      Same here, parliament.tv is acting up something terrible.

    104. Capella says:

      @ Meg Merilees – my Opera browser is having trouble playing the HoC feed too. It was reasonably OK at first but now gets stuck after half a minute and nothing will get it going again.

      Maybe the whole of Europe is tuning in. Or maybe it is just a rubbish connection (like everything else in the UK).

      I did hear Ian Blackford state loud and clear that Scotland won’t be dragged out of the EU against our will.
      That’s what I want to hear. So I will try later when the vote is imminent to see what is going on.

    105. Ghillie says:

      What was TM thinking when she chose this date?

      Beware the Ides of March,and all that.

    106. One_Scot says:

      Beginning to think it will either end with No Deal or No Brexit.

    107. galamcennalath says:

      Never have we heard ‘the mandate’ repeated so often from so many SNP politicians. “Scotland should not be taken out against its will”. And followed by stating the obvious that Indy represents an alternative choice which we must have the opportunity to make.

      I sense the starting pistol is being raised in the air.

    108. SilverDarling says:

      Does Stephen Crabb know what happened on Ben Nevis today? Seems a somewhat crass metaphor at this time.

    109. Welsh Sion says:

      I guess it would be blink and you missed it (always assuming the MSM actually showed it in the first place) but this is the Plaid Cymru position.

      (Source: e-mail to Party Members today.)

      Dear Member,

      With Brexit continuing to cause havoc at Westminster, here’s a brief update on Plaid Cymru’s work as we defend our country from the dangers of leaving the European Union without a deal.

      Leaving the EU without a deal would be a disaster for Wales.

      Here are five ways Plaid Cymru is safeguarding Wales against ‘no deal’.

      We put forward an amendment with the SNP in Westminster on 15 January calling for an extension of Article 50 to avoid the damage ‘no deal’ would cause to Wales and Scotland

      We laid down a successful motion in the Assembly on 16 January to reject ‘no deal’ under any circumstances

      We put forward an amendment to the Welsh-Scottish governments’ joint motion on 5 March unequivocally calling for a People’s Vote to take ‘no deal’ off the table for good

      All our MPs will vote against ‘no deal’ this week and will vote in favour of extending Article 50

      We are continuing our campaign for a People’s Vote – the only way of stopping ‘no deal’ for good

      Regards,

      Member of PC and SNP

    110. Cactus says:

      “It’s a countdown to extinction for the Tories in Scotland and it is them for whom the bell tolls and their time is indeed at an end…”

      Countdown to the next unmeaningful No-Deal vote:
      https://howmanydaystill.com/its/mays-latest-no-deal

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hk1LzKELoo
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeqGuaAl6Ic
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11sSQvoElhQ

    111. yesindyref2 says:

      @SilverDarling
      The pace is gathering and its a win-win yet again.

      If Bercow doesn’t select it, it’s potentially another straw in the upcoming constitutional stushie – and puts the UK Parliament into more disrepute.

      If it’s selected and voted down, it’s potentially another straw in the upcoming constitutional stushie – and puts the UK Parliament into more disrepute.

      It it’s selected and voted in, well, it’s good in itself!

    112. yesindyref2 says:

      I’ve seen a couple of negative takes on the Survation poll, but here’s more like it:

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17495536.new-poll-finds-majority-of-scots-want-another-independence-referendum/

      and of course SGP (where perhaps the above comes from:

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/03/65-of-scottish-public-want-second.html

      sorry if posted before, busy day.

    113. Graeme says:

      According to Luke Graham MP for Ochil & South Perthshire Scotland is not a country it’s a Principality, This from a so called Scottish MP

      FFS Nicola get us out of this fucking union

    114. Dr Jim says:

      So what’s happening with the SNP at Holyrood says Jackie Bird to Bryan Taylor who then proceeds to tell us all about what the Tories think, and given that they’re all for Brexit now as opposed to when they voted against it because it was such a bad thing they now say it’s all the SNPs fault that Brexit is bad

      Yup that’s the BBC in Scotland for you

    115. Trouble between fans 1500 years ago,

      Chariot Racing in Roman Byzantium,

      The Blue team fans against the Green team fans rivalry often erupted into gang warfare, and street violence had been on the rise in the reign of Justin I (518–527), who took measures to restore order,

      when the gangs murdered a citizen in the Hagia Sophia. Riots culminated in the Nika riots of 532 AD during the reign of Justinian,

      the Nika riots took place against Emperor Justinian I in Constantinople over the course of a week in 532 AD. They were the most violent riots in the city’s history, with nearly half of Constantinople being burned or destroyed and tens of thousands of people killed.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots

    116. Nana says:

      O/T

      Michel Barnier says

      Listening to debate in @HouseofCommons : there seems to be a dangerous illusion that the UK can benefit from a transition in the absence of the WA.
      Let me be clear: the only legal basis for a transition is the WA. No withdrawal agreement means no transition.
      https://twitter.com/MichelBarnier/status/1105531020575678466

    117. robbo says:

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1dHX9EX4AAa3bp.png

      This survation if true looks a bit better! . Still need to conquer south Scotland though. The north will fall when fishermen get done.

    118. CameronB Brodie says:

      So you want to get serious about tackling sectarianism in Scotland and the nativistic social pathology it perpetuates? Well here’s some Educational Sociology and stuff that I think provides vital context for rational action.

      Sectarianism, anti-sectarianism and Scottish football

      Abstract

      In 2012, the Scottish Parliament voted through anti-vilification legislation known as the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act. Among those most prominent in opposing this have been supporters of Celtic Football Club. This paper looks at the history of the term ‘sectarianism’ as a means to understand the act and to consider some of the rationale behind Celtic supporters’ resistance. It includes reflection on aspects of the social, cultural and religious context within and without football, which have contributed to the act’s construction and opposition.

      https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17430437.2014.976008?src=recsys

      The Sectarian Iceberg?
      https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/full/10.3366/scot.2015.0081

      Catholic Schools and Sectarianism in Scotland: Educational Places and the Production and Negotiation of Urban Space
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.2304/pfie.2012.10.5.507

      Sectarianism and state funded schooling in Scotland.
      A critical response to the Final Report of the Advisory Group on Tackling Sectarianism in Scotland.

      eprints.gla.ac.uk/114642/1/114642.pdf

    119. galamcennalath says:

      Graeme says:

      According to Luke Graham MP for Ochil & South Perthshire Scotland is not a country it’s a Principality

      Oh … they would soooo love that to be true!

      Well, tough. No matter how hard they wish that were true, they can’t change reality and a millennium of history.

      Now here’s a question. If Graham believes Scotland is a principality, does he believe England is too?

    120. North chiel says:

      Must be something important happening outwith the “ branch office” at Pathetic Quay, as “ heavyweights”. Campbell and Bird are centre stage at the “ so called” mother of Parliaments ( must both be seeking promotion opportunities from “ Head office” as they no doubt keep doing their “ bidding”). Meanwhile “ tootle-oo-the noo” has to make do with “ the pretendy Parliament” in a faraway land . Professor poultice has now arrived on the scene to give Jackie the answers she undoubtedly wants from his “ polls”. Christopher appears with not a hair out of place to forecast imminent inclement weather blowing in. Not “ hot air” from him unfortunately ( unlike his PQ colleagues)

    121. Dr Jim says:

      Ooh does that mean we have a Royal as a Prince like Wales
      Whoops no we don’t so can’t be a Princedom then and if we were I don’t recall anywhere in the act or treaty of Union Scotland being referred to as such

      They’ll try anything these Yoons even to pander to the uneducated Royalists who’ll no doubt try and rattle that out on Twitter later

      Scotland’s Kings and Queens must have just been in the drag business eh

    122. Welsh Sion says:

      Why you can trust the BBC (Part 538).

      ________

      From tonight’s webpage:

      19:04

      Another MP announces support for May

      Conservative MP tweets…

      Craig Tracey MP
      ?
      @craig4nwarks

      Having given tonight’s vote an awful lot of consideration & thought over last few days, I have decided I will be voting against the Govt motion tonight.

      19:00 – 12 Mar 2019

    123. Welsh Sion says:

      PS Cymru has not been a Principality since 1535, either, Dr Jim! 😀

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      @Welsh Sion
      Classic. I had to check it out, it was so daft:

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47529293

      The BBC genuinely is a mixture of biased and absolutely incompetent. They make good partners with May and her Z-team.

    125. Ken500 says:

      No wonder the terraces are empty. Racists, bigots and paedos running the clubs. Getting away with criminal behaviour. Fraud, violence, cheating lying. Overpaid prima donnas. People can’t be bother with the nonsense,

      Brexit violence mounting up and exploding. People getting really angry and annoyed. It coming out through other channels. Including sport. They need to get involved in exercise and meditation.

      The complete and utter Westminster shambles. What an absolute mess. Criminal behsviour. Astonishing.

      Either way. It will bring to support for Independence.

      A guy has his child in the Commons. The child will have more sense than the rest of the rest of them.

      May and the Tories on the way out. This carry on will finish them off.

      The average Tory Party member is male and over seventy. Small party numbers. The Tory Party could die out. This could finish them off. Johanna Cherry got a word in. Pointing out the failure.

    126. Macart says:

      Yeah… Even when the inevitable collapse of their cosy gentlemans club is staring them right in the face? They’re still playing party politics. Zero redeeming qualities between the ‘big’ two. Not humility. Not courage. Not sincerity and certainly not honesty. Too busy angling for advantage over one another and nary a thought for the populations in their care.

      Worth taking note. When you use their particular practice of politics? When you deliberately and callously divide and subdivide your populations without any care for the fallout and for personal advantage? THIS is the shit show that’s waiting for you at the end of that particular road.

      Westminster will be Westminster. Just sayin’ like. 😎

      Anyroads. Running low on choccy raisins.

    127. yesindyref2 says:

      Wales is a country and with apologies, anyone who refers to it as Principality is Rip Van Winkle.

    128. manandboy says:

      Brexit debate on Parliament TV.

      Many different points of view, expressed through a variety of talents, but one thing is obvious there is no convergence. There is no movement toward consensus, there is no weighing of the arguments and no changes of mind.

      In this, there is a reflection of the electorate, as I see it, whereby each camp is quite fixed in its support and very few are switching either way. Such is identity politics.

      Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement will not pass, if the speakers I heard are anything to go by.

      With no ability to come and go, and therefore little possibility of consensus and agreement, there will be no extension beyond 29th March unless MPs agree to a 2nd EU Referendum.

      Westminster is in a deep and dangerous hole, and May only knows how to dig deeper.

      The avalanche continues. Please stand clear, Scotland.

    129. Welsh Sion says:

      Ha – yesindyref2.

      Notice the BBC have amended it. We have a mole here on Wings (who follows Welsh Sion!)

      Thanks for your support.

    130. Macart says:

      Yes 242 – No 391

      Majority 149

      Ooft!

    131. Ken500 says:

      Media bigging up Blair because he had a large majority. To blow the world to bits and crash the world economy. Killing millions of people, destroying the world, wasting £Trns and causing Brexit.

      What a bunch of hypocrites. Psycho bastards. Most of them should be put in jail. Including the loud mouth bully Bercow. Infantile.

      May finished. Rejected 149.

      Goodness she has lost her voice. Now lost her position. Finished.

    132. Welsh Sion says:

      BREAKING:

      Theresa May’s Brexit deal has been defeated in the Commons by 391 votes to 242, a majority of 149.

    133. yesindyref2 says:

      Ooops. But I think there’s another last ditch meaningless vote to come, next week is it?

    134. Welsh Sion says:

      How appropriate BBC report this @ 19:22 … 😉

    135. 242:391 She lost.

      Seems tomorrow that T May will herself vote against a NO Deal

    136. gus1940 says:

      Typical BBC – and it’s back to Brillo as soon as Ian Blackford stands up to speak.

    137. seems YET AGAIN that no one else’ view on brexit matters only May and Corbyn – no coverage of Ian Blackford.

    138. yesindyref2 says:

      “May: I will vote against a no-deal Brexit”

      I think this increases the chances of no Brexit, possibly what she’s been aiming for since she was voted Leader and hence PM. History will tell.

      But Indy Ref 2 could still go ahead, just not in such an urgent hurry.

    139. galamcennalath says:

      Will the EU allow an extension just to carry on more of this fiasco?

    140. from the BBC LIVE coverage:

      The SNP’s Westminster leader Ian Blackford says people will be looking at Parliament “with despair”.

      He says MPs should vote to rule out no deal and extend Article 50 to allow for a referendum on Brexit.

      “We have a responsibility to end the uncertainty,” he says.

      Article share tools

    141. Legerwood says:

      galamcennalath says:
      12 March, 2019 at 6:56 pm
      Graeme says:

      According to Luke Graham MP for Ochil & South Perthshire Scotland is not a country it’s a Principality””
      …………

      Anyone told Betty she has been down graded? Has Ross Thomson volunteered to go tell her?

      Worth repeating: In Scotland the Queen wears a different crown, bears a different coat of arms and flies a different Royal Standard.

    142. Petra says:

      Joanna Cherry seen nipping out right after the vote to be interviewed by Channel 4. Bottom line is: she said ”No Deal has to be taken off of the table and we require an extension, longer than 3 months. Then put the vote to the people that is Big T’s Deal and Remain. For her, she said, as 62% of Scots voted to remain in the EU they should be afforded the opportunity to vote in another Independence referendum.

    143. Dr Jim says:

      So Rip Van Prince Charles Winkle doesn’t even have a principality to Prince it over
      Does this mean he is (to use Theresa Mays words) a Prince of nowhere and Camilla’s married to a fraudulent gigalo claiming a title he’s not entitled to

    144. TheItalianJob says:

      @Gus1940

      Soon as I heard Brillo’s voice on the BBC I switched to Sky. Ian Blackford’s reply was transmitted in full. When he was finished up next was Vince Cable and Sky switched to their own commentators and he was shut out. Ha Ha. But he is in a minority party after all.

    145. Legerwood says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      12 March, 2019 at 7:33 pm
      seems YET AGAIN that no one else’ view on brexit matters only May and Corbyn – no coverage of Ian Blackford.””
      …….

      Joanna Cherry gave it laldy on CH4 news.

      Saw her leaving the chamber after result announced so figured CH4 wanted her for an interview and sure enough up she popped.

    146. CameronB Brodie says:

      I think I’ve already posted this one but worth a re-post, I think.

      ‘Sectarianism’ and Scottish Football:
      Critical Reflections on Dominant Discourse and Press Commentary

      Abstract
      This article provides a critical discourse analysis of Scottish newspaper reports relating to football and ‘sectarianism’ in Scotland. It claims that there is a powerful and longstanding ideological ‘framing’ of sectarianism in sections of the Scottish press that is latently power-laden. This discourse attempts to construct and reaffirm a unified non-‘sectarian’ core identity that ‘real’ and ‘authentic’ Scots (should) share in opposition to a set of sectarian ‘others’.

      The various connotations attached to sectarian and sectarianism, together with their use in particular ways that reflect an ideological hegemony, are illustrated. Much of the press’s treatment of sectarianism is shown to lack sensitivity to the historical, hierarchical and relational aspects of religious, political and ethnic identities in Scotland.

      Keywords: Scotland; football; sectarianism; hegemony; press

      https://www.research.ed.ac.uk/portal/files/15243355/_Sectarianism_and_Scottish_football.pdf

      The Sectarian Myth in Scotland
      https://link.springer.com/book/10.1057%2F9780230505131

      Territoriality and Sectarianism in Glasgow: A Qualitative Study
      equalityinsport.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Territoriality_and_Sectarianism_in_Glasgow_-_Report_tcm4-584986.pdf

      Gangs, Sectarianism and Social Capital:
      A Qualitative Study of Young People in Scotland

      citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.1001.5653&rep=rep1&type=pdf

    147. galamcennalath says:

      A thought. If you live in Scotland you should have a Scottish tax code. I wonder if Tory MPs from Scotland all have Scottish tax codes?

    148. Big Del says:

      See all the “ THIS country” shit from these commentators on SKY news
      It is really boiling my blood, along with the “When we are a free and democratic country”
      Comments………

    149. geeo says:

      Just back in on time to catch treeza being pummelled again.

      What happened to the amendments ?

      Were none selected ?

    150. call me dave says:

      The EU: Tusk has been quick off the mark.

      If the UK request an extension there better be a bloody good reason….or words to that affect! 🙂

      Parliament tv…useless today maybe too many folk watching only got the sound. That’s twice today.

      Oh well!….off to the footie replays. Raining in the capital.

    151. Lenny Hartley says:

      Geeo, SNP amendment was not selected, dont know about the others.

    152. Just clarifying a few things in my mind:

      Please correct me if I’m wrong

      if T May’s deal has been defeated does that mean the Withdrawal Bill ( containing the power grab) has been annulled – hence no power grab?
      If we leave with NO deal there is no transition period it’s straight out the door and WTO tariffs.
      if MP’s vote for an extension it has to be agreed by all remaining 27 countries
      if any EU state disagrees with an extension we don’t get one so e.g.unlikely but – Spain could veto unless we ‘give back’ Gibraltar

      presumably if MP’s have voted down ‘no deal’ and we are refused an ‘extension’ that only leaves ‘revoke Article 50’ owing to no time left and presumably that leads to a GE as a sort of 2nd referendum

    153. Pretty sure HM The Queen would not agree with Luke Graham that Scotland is a Pincipality

    154. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees says: “Article share tools

      That’s no way to talk about the Tories!

      Oh, well, maybe it is 🙂

    155. Welsh Sion says:

      Dr Jim,

      You should know that Welshies do not recognise anyone post conquest and the initial investiture of a foreign ‘Prince of Wales’ in 1301 (the son of Longshanks, obvs.) as being the titular Head of our country.

    156. Welsh Sion says:

      Princes of Wales since then (other than Owain Glyn Dwr – the one we do recognise) have been from “any country but Wales”.

    157. sandy says:

      Swedish MEP on C4 news.

      EU pissed off with WM (English) Parliament.

    158. yesindyref2 says:

      @Welsh Sion
      Welsh parents, Welsh till the day they died in spite of living in and around London for most of my life, apart from my birth years where they lived in Scotland. I’ve lived most of my life in Scotland, just the few visits to Wales. It explains a lot 🙂

    159. geeo says:

      Thanks for that, Lenny.

      By not picking it, WM are clearly trying to avoid a majority of Scottish MP’s voting for indy/indyref and having it on official parliamentary record.

      Shitebags.

    160. Yesindyref2

      NO idea where those last three words came from I literally copied and pasted the paragraph from the BBC Live feeder the vote.

      Maybe my laptop is also expressing an opinion on the events of the night!

    161. CameronB Brodie says:

      re. Luke Graham MSP. He is bio-neurally pre-disposed to see things that way. All he has done is open his mouth without engaing his capacity to reason, subsequently, exposing his base anti-Scottish prejudice. The “cring” is strong in that one.

      Left wing or right wing? It’s written in the brain
      https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2010/dec/left-wing-or-right-wing-its-written-brain

      Fear and Anxiety Drive Conservatives’ Political Attitudes
      Can brain differences explain conservatives’ fear-driven political stances?

      https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/mind-in-the-machine/201612/fear-and-anxiety-drive-conservatives-political-attitudes

      Differences in gray matter structure correlated to nationalism and patriotism
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4945903/

    162. galamcennalath says:

      Tusk … “The EU will expect a credible justification for a possible extension and its duration. “

      Simply begging …. “we want to keel our bun tight going” …. hardly seems credible.

      So what would be credible justification? A GE? A referendum on TMay’s deal versus Remain?

    163. yesindyref2 says:

      I have this feeling that the ERG are going to end up taking most of the blame if there’s no Brexit at all. Oh what a shame. Rees-Mogg sent back in his time machine, but without benefit of silver spoon. He’ll make a good chimney sweep brush.

    164. Ken Clarke suggested earlier that there be an extension till 2020 to allow time to actually work out what the UK really wants to do, during which time the UK begins to work through the trade deals and come up with answers which would hopefully mean the backstop would be worked through and sorted by the time there was a final vote to leave.

    165. Apparently T May herself said today during the discussions in HoC that whatever happens tonight, if the vote falls ‘you will not be able to blame the EU’.

      Now she is admitting that she will vote against a no deal tomorrow.

      I’d love it if she decides to resign and phones up Nicola tonight saying I’m so pe’ed off with all of them that i’ve decided to agree to a section 30 before I resign – well , we can dream!

    166. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sorry, Luke Graham MP. He’s still an obnoxious git who clearly feels empowered to display extreme prejudice against Scotland. With that sort of attitude, he’s a stick-on racist if ever I saw one. And he’s Scottish. That’s how fucked-up Scotland’s social identity is thanks to British nationalism.

    167. cearc says:

      Scot Finlayson,

      Lessons from history. Time to nip it in the bud, methinks!

    168. galamcennalath says:

      So what would be credible justification for an A50 extension?

      Much media talk of renegotiation. I think there is ZERO chance of the EU reopening negotiations with the present shower of incompetents. It would be a waste of time, effort, and money.

      There could be a GE where Tories and Labour put forward clear manifesto proposals on Brexit. When the winner delivers on those promises. What this doesn’t allow for is a hung parliament especially where horse trading (by the SNP with Labour, for instance) changes the manifesto commitments! An GE goes no guarantee of sorting out the mess. IMO the EU might not see a GE as credible justification.

      Let the people decide. A referendum of the already agreed WA versus Remain. Here, I think the EU would be delighted by this proposal! I suspect England might opt for May’s deal, so IndyRef2 can follow swiftly.

    169. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Watched a magnificent speech from Anna Soubry (she is a spectacular orator) followed by actually painful mince from Owen Paterson. I couldn’t work out what he was supporing until his final sentence. Plaid lady was great. Then I had to go out. By all accounts Blackmore had been bang on the button again.

    170. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Well, I must admit that I got today’s call wrong. Phew! After the hints at UKGov removing the backstop unilaterally, followed by the “11th hour” flight to Strasbourg and the EU “clarification”, I was afraid for a while that I might prove right. But there seems no confusion the Tory Party, the UKGov and the English-dominated HoC won’t indulge themselves in.

      The next vote ought to be a cert unless the Brexists can pull a surprising fast one somehow. But could the ferrets-in-a-sack possibly fumble the Art.50 extension the day after, though..?

    171. call me dave says:

      @Meg merrilees

      Aye if only.

      @yesindyref2

      Good early catch. re: National. 🙂

    172. call me dave says:

      You tube footie link: Sorry its Queens 11. 🙁

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31oKF_2duuk&feature=youtu.be

    173. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 20:22,

      A PV is still by no means certain, but the most interesting scenario with it would be if England marginally votes Leave again but Scotland swings it for Remain. They would be practically begging us to “go indy” then.

    174. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      RE: General Election.

      A wee whiley ago, I posted this in the “One Way Or The Other” page.

      I’ll repeat it here.

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      12 March, 2019 at 8:14 pm

      Hi Thepnr at 7:19 pm

      You typed,
      “I would have thought so but do Labour or this new TIG lot want one? I’m not so sure but the Tories could call one anyway in the expectation they will win.”

      My own thoughts…
      If there is a GE, the SNP should use the “Maggie Mantra” as their manifesto, ie, if a majority of pro-independence MPs are sent to Westminster, then we Scots have the right to withdraw from The Treaty of Union and regain our status as an independent country.

      I think that Labour would be down to one or no Scottish MPs, the Tories would also be decimated. The Lib-Dems – who knows?

    175. Republicofscotland says:

      The unionists use sectarianism to divide us, they don’t want to see it diminished.

    176. call me dave says:

      The FM says in the National

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17495811.read-first-ministers-full-response-to-mays-humiliating-brexit-defeat/
      —————————————————————-
      “Ruling out ‘No Deal’ and extending Article 50 would stop the clock on Brexit and enable another referendum on EU membership to be held. We will support any such referendum, provided it has the option to remain in the EU on the ballot paper.

      —————————————————————–
      Provided that it has the option to remain in the EU on the ballot.

      I am reading that as referring to Scotland? What does that mean and how can it be on the ballot?

    177. jfngw says:

      The vote is in, BBC Scotland bumps River City for Eastenders. Even their flagship soap takes a subordinate position to soap about the east end (of London).

    178. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Lenny Hartley –

      Bercow announced pre-debate, to some surprise, that he had selected no amendments.

    179. Petra says:

      Well worth listening to Joanna Cherry from 17:28pm on (two / three speeches with a couple of short interventions). Brilliant stuff from her. Pointing out the seriousness of the situation as T May laughs, smirks, makes faces and encourages others to do so. Total contempt for Scotland and that we will be holding another referendum and YES that we will win it this time around. She also points out that Scotland, England and Wales are Nations with NIreland being a Province. She follows on from B Johnston and makes reference to him as he sits with a face like fizz.

      https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b6cf0fc5-ae6f-4672-b8e7-d89603fdf018

    180. geeo says:

      Sky News has spoken.

      “The SNP dont want a GE because, and they will not like me saying this, but they are on the decline”

      Sky News’s Jon Craig.
      ……

      Aye, right ye are son.

    181. Legerwood says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 8:11 pm

      I think you will find that Luke Graham was born in Swindon not Scotland.

    182. North chiel says:

      Just a thought , if no deal is ruled out and HOC votes for article 50 extension , if the EU rule out an extension would the HOC have to revoke article 50 to avoid a “ default” no deal Brexit??

    183. Welsh Sion says:

      From one of my bosses on Twitter:

      Adam Price

      @Adamprice
      ·
      1hr ago

      In better times, both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition would be resigning tonight. May for a second crushing defeat. Corbyn for choosing a red Brexit deal over a dead Brexit deal, ignoring his own party’s policy of a People’s Vote. Westminster at its worst.

      ________

      Sums it up perfectly. Nail on the head, Adam.

    184. Tackety Beets says:

      2 up Mmmm

    185. Petra says:

      O/T

      The more the merrier.

      ‘Former No voter sets up independence-supporting STEM group.’

      ”An organisation bringing together science, technology, engineering and maths experts who support independence has been set up by a former No voter.

      Craig Berry, 26, from Glasgow, launched the group STEM for Independence to persuade people working in the science and technology sector to back independence and vote Yes in any new referendum on the issue.

      “Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) is the lifeblood of Scottish industry. Scotland has built up a vast knowledge base within STEM subjects and continues to lead the world within some areas. However, the UK economy relies too heavily on the South East and London as economic centres. Economic development focuses on advancing these regions at the expense of the other regions of the UK,” said electrical engineer, Berry.

      He added: “With independence, Scotland and our universities will be in a stronger position, as a sovereign nation state, to invest in our STEM capacity, limited to the economic availability of investment. There are almost one million people in Scotland that work in STEM industries or occupations. We need a campaign which will not only speak to those people, but give them a voice. Other people within the UK may be fed up with experts, but Scotland isn’t.”

      “We have a wealth of experts in Scotland that are involved with the STEM community, academics who have built a long career in STEM, and we can begin to give these people a voice so that the independence movement is ready for the next referendum on Scottish independence.”

      He added: “It is our belief that independence can offer Scotland a more equal and democratic society. Giving the STEM community the platform to help shape that society will ensure that we can change Scotland for the better. STEM for Independence will take that role on and ensure the STEM community can have a voice in the independence movement.”

      Berry said he voted No in 2014, but had changed his mind gradually since then, coming to the view that Scotland lacked democratic power and influence within the UK. It is now his firm belief that Scotland would do better economically if it became an independent nation.

      STEM for Independence has six signatories to date: Ivan McKee, the Scottish government minister for trade, investment and innovation; Dr Kirsty Ross, an outreach officer working in pure and applied chemistry; Dr Craig Dalzell, head of research and policy at think-tank Common Weal; Carol Monaghan, SNP MP for Glasgow North West; Lorna Slater, engineering project manager at Orbital Marine Power and operations co-convener at the Scottish Greens and Dr Keith Baker, a fuel poverty researcher at Glasgow Caledonian University.

      Berry has written a number of reports for Common Weal, including articles on automation, democratising artificial intelligence and the need for public-funding to see Scotland’s space industry develop.

      To coincide with the launch, a paper written by Berry highlighting the negative impact Brexit will have upon research funding in Scotland will be published. It will warn that Scottish universities receive around 10% of their research income from the EU, totalling round £105m a year.

      He urged people to come forward to help support the new organisation. “With just a modest budget we can ensure we have the resources to effectively convince people within the STEM community that it is in their benefit to create an independent Scotland,” he said.

      More information on the group can be found at stem.scot/donate

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/17493087.former-no-voter-sets-up-independence-supporting-stem-group/

    186. Papko says:

      @Brian 8.11
      “My own thoughts…
      If there is a GE, the SNP should use the “Maggie Mantra” as their manifesto, ie, if a majority of pro-independence MPs are sent to Westminster, then we Scots have the right to withdraw from The Treaty of Union and regain our status as an independent country.”

      If that was actually in the SNP manifesto, you would find that the other parties will either merge into on pro-union party. Or put up only one candidate per constituency, and the other two will step aside.

      I.e. if the Lib-dems had a good chance of second place in a particular constituency the other parties will give them a free run and put no candidates forward, thus unifying the Union vote in every constituency.

      In other words the Yoons will do, what they do best, form a Union.

    187. Heart of Galloway says:

      Nicola Sturgeon was brilliant on The Nine right now on Scotland’s right to choose a better future. It was noticeable that a quiet fury lay behind her words as she laid into May’s stupid arrogance and refusal to listen to reasoned Scottish Government proposals for compromise for the last 33 months.

      The FM said a call on IndyRef2 would be made as soon as this final chapter plays out re no deal/GE/extension, possibly “within days”.

      Over the piece coverage was very good with an interview with Stephen Gethins opening the programme. The contrast with Britto Brillo and the EBC’s censoring of Ian Blackford could not have been more stark.

    188. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      An interesting take on our situation, Papko.

      How do you see our way forward, to independence?

    189. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legerwood
      Thanks for the correction.

      So Luke Graham MP’s hostile prejudice towards Scotland, looks like it’s simply unvarnished racism. I wonder if (t)Ruthless condones such belittlement of her nation, by one of her yoon colleagues?

      Is her loyalty to the Crown or to her fellow Scottish nationals. Which Crown?

    190. CameronB Brodie says:

      Someone needs to introduce the STEM group to post-modern critical social theory and the biopsychosocial model of health. Both are grounded in Critical Realism, so should be right up their street.

      Critical–Cultural Theory, Media Power, and a Multieffect Reality

      Abstract

      This entry moves beyond the traditional juxtapositions of cultural, critical, and discourse studies on the one hand and media effects studies on the other, by showing in detail how these perspectives differ in their understanding of power. First, the specific relationship between media effects and power is analyzed.

      Then, a four?tiered model that combines a discursive/material dimension with an internal/external dimension of power is presented and elaborated, showing the contingency and complexity of effects, specifically by studying two key signifiers from within the media field: the audience and the media professional. These examples provide support for a critical–cultural theory perspective that addresses social reality as a multieffect reality and avoids unidirectional analyses of media power.
      https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781118783764.wbieme0094

    191. McDuff says:

      jfngw
      Right on. And why isn’t Riverside shown across the UK, you have soaps from the north west, east and south of England that are shown nationwide. And why is the hugely popular Still Game not shown across the UK.
      In fact there are more dramas and entertainers from the Rep of Ireland on our screens than Scots. Of course its a deliberate policy to keep everything in Scotland parochial, localised and in a box.

    192. Legerwood says:

      CameronB Brodie @ 9:48 pm

      It took a wee bit of digging to find that. He seems to be a bit coy on the subject.

    193. Sarah says:

      O/T The Rev on Twitter refers to the indyref docu that he is in. Is it tonight? I haven’t got a TV licence so I hope any Wings viewers will give their reaction on here!

    194. Terry says:

      Woo hoo! The rev. Again!!

    195. Terry says:

      Ah. The wee blue book.
      Actually this is a pretty good documentary.

    196. Capella says:

      Stu is tweeting about the documentary. It sounds as if it is good. I don’t have a TV licence either so not watching.
      Shows that the BBC can actually make a decent programme if they want to. But they usually don’t want to.

    197. Jock McDonnell says:

      With 17 days to go, Paul is wearing a badge.
      FFS

    198. Famous15 says:

      Milton! thou shouldst be living at this hour:
      England hath need of thee: she is a fen
      Of stagnant waters: altar, sword, and pen,
      Fireside, the heroic wealth of hall and bower,
      Have forfeited their ancient English dower
      Of inward happiness. We are selfish men;
      Oh! raise us up, return to us again;
      And give us manners, virtue, freedom, power.

    199. Ken500 says:

      YES/NO revenue programme on at 10pm. Serialised. It might be available on the internet. They were reports given in the media of the contents. Some person who was in the YES campaign. A nobody? People have never heard of him. They were taking SNP monies and funding and wasting it. Then they slagging Rev Stu off and the cybernats.

      This spokesperson? gave an opinion that people vote NO because of Rev Stu and the so called ‘cybernats’. A complete fabrication. With the little Blue Book and giving accurate stats Rev Stu did more than anyone to help the IndyRef and get people over to YES by calibrating the main facts and figures. Doing the job a responsible MSM should have done. Rev Stu beats them at their own game and rings circles round them. Having the best influential Independence supporting website. They do not like it st all.

      On the web some of the usual suspects were making rude comments and the usual rhetoric of abuse. The abuse they constantly complain of gettiing. Showing it goes both ways. Kettle black, They have absolutely no self awareness. Slagging off other folk, looking ridiculous. Groundhog Day. Rev Stu gave a reply. They just became more abusive. They even started to make comments about apprearance. Losing the argument. Pathetic, ignorant, arrogant and infantile.

      Someone might link it. Or do a search on the internet.

      The news outlet who deleted and banned Independence supporters, constantly. Unionist politicians were availed first comments. Breaking regulations. Biased Propaganda. No fair moderation. Now going down the tubes, to oblivion.

    200. Ronnie says:

      Great, another football post while the world burns around us.

    201. Ken500 says:

      It could have been a balanced programme? The Press giving the usual biased review.

      There might be parts available. Knowing the BBC. Low viewing figures.

    202. Jon Musgrave says:

      Ya Beauty, great result for the Dons tonight… 😉

    203. CameronB Brodie says:

      Sectarianism in Scotland is condition resulting from British nationalism’s hegemonic tendancies, so how about some hardcore Sociology and a bit of Cultural Theory?

      An ‘Anti-Sectarian’ Act? Examining the Importance of National Identity to the ‘Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act’

      Abstract

      The 2010-11 football season in Scotland was affected by many incidents of violence and threatening behaviour. Fans of the two Glasgow clubs, Celtic and Rangers, were involved in the majority of these incidents. Players and officials of Celtic were targeted by Loyalist terrorists and sent bullets through the post. The Scottish government felt that many of the incidents were motivated by religious, ethnic, and national hatred, and introduced an Act of Parliament in order to tackle the problems that had arisen.

      The ‘Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Act’ came into law on 1 March 2012, representing a governmental judgement that Scottish football is negatively affected by inter-communal tension. The Act criminalises violent incidents and threatening behaviour related to the expression of religious hatred towards football fans, players, and officials. It also explicitly targets expressions of hatred on ethnic and national grounds. This is significant because in the contemporary era, much of what is termed ‘sectarianism’ in Scotland is directly related to national identity, particularly British and Irish identities.

      The modern iconography of Celtic and Rangers has comparatively little to do with religion, and relates to differing visions of Scotland, the United Kingdom, and the island of Ireland. Incidents that are termed ‘sectarian’ are often best examined through the prism of nationalism, for in contemporary Scotland it is national identity that is most significant to those who perpetrate the actions that the Act seeks to tackle.

      Keywords: Football, Scotland, Nationalism, Culture, Unionism, Sectarianism

      http://www.socresonline.org.uk/20/2/14.html

      Popular Culture, Sport and the ‘Hero’-fication of British Militarism
      https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0038038512453795

      The rise of ‘no religion’ in Britain:
      The emergence of a new cultural majority

      https://www.thebritishacademy.ac.uk/sites/default/files/11%20Woodhead%201825.pdf

      How cultural theory can help us to better design and implement social impact bonds
      https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/culture-theory-organisational-relationships/

    204. Famous15 says:

      See what happens when Utilita sponsors you and you forget to top up the meter. You go broke like Our Power.

    205. Dr Jim says:

      HYFUD is trolling the FM now with all four of his pals

    206. SilverDarling says:

      O/T

      Ha! Paul Masterton having a wee tizzy on Twitter at Mike Russell over the hashtag #RagmanRoll.

      https://twitter.com/PM4EastRen/status/1105607938872352768

    207. Petra says:

      Big T’s speech was fairly short but telling, IMO, in that she actually mentioned that all of this Brexit (whatever) could “damage the Union.” Seems that the penny has finally dropped. She also looked as though she was ready to burst oot greetin throughout the speech. Shades of, feeling sorry for herself, Thatcher?

      They’re voting on the No Deal fiasco tomorrow. Seemingly T May herself will vote against it, as per Peston. That’s the woman who told us all that No Deal was better than a Bad Deal (hers). Changed her mind again?

      And then onto voting for an extension of A50 on Thursday. I would laugh my head off if someone vetoed it, say Spain (better still the RoI). That would put the cat amongst the pigeons with them having to vote for revocation of A50 versus No Deal (or Treeza’s lousy deal again) between now and the 29th March.

      Well it looks as though there WILL be an extension, for a valid reason, and then what? Will Treeza have to tell them what she wants it for, such as a GE or EuRef2? Then tell us?

      ……………

      STV’s Scotland Tonight programme:-

      Ross Thompson, B Johnston’s pal, was the only Scottish Tory to vote against T May’s deal.

      Mundell doesn’t support a No Deal Brexit and he doesn’t want another EURef either. Rather he wants an extension of A 50 to vote on a “variation of T May’s deal.” Plan C or is it D? You couldnae make it up.

      Nicola Sturgeon sticking to her guns re. her timing for IndyRef2. She’ll make an announcement when this mess is clarified.

      Paul Sweeny, Labour MP, said the Scottish Tories have shown no spine whatsoever in protecting Scotland.

    208. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Petra @ 23:38:

      Paul Sweeny, Labour MP, said the Scottish Tories have shown no spine whatsoever in protecting Scotland.

      Kettle calling…

      Huh. I would be more impressed if he and his chums in NorthBritLab had been spending their time and effort attacking the Tories instead of collaborating with them and constantly attacking the SNP.

    209. dakk says:

      The Ugly Game is it? Right enough Stuart

      It’ll be all sweetness and light, and Beautiful Game posts on here for months now after that stunning away win coupon buster from Dons.

    210. Petra says:

      Support the National folks. We need it now more than ever.

      WGD:-

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/03/12/how-much-longer-can-we-put-up-with-this-mess/

      ……………………

      RJS (11:45pm) …… “Kettle calling.”

      Oh I know RJS. Over and above everything else that’s wrong with them, Unionists politicians, they seem to suffer from a total lack of insight. On the other hand his negative remarks about the Tories and complete absence of SNP Baad comments made for a refreshing change. Shock in fact, lol.

    211. chicmac says:

      I had a dream last night.

      The Presiding Officer at Holyrood asked of the chamber:

      “Will whoever was responsible for the repealing the OBFA please stand up.”

      Then I only heard a pathetic little voice saying:

      “I will not standup. I will not stand up…” repeatedly.

      I was awoken by my wife who asked why I was giggling.

    212. Benhope says:

      Despite the protestations about the posters dislike of comments about football, this thread started about the Rangers v Aberdeen game.

      Ken500 7.14 repeats his mantra: the terraces are empty, the clubs are run by racists,bigots and paedos.

      The basic foundation of this site is facts and truth. Your above comments are totally false. Attendances at Scottish football matches are at about a 10 year high.Many of the club directors, secretaries, tea ladies, supporters give their time for free and put their hard earned money into their beloved clubs, especially in the lower leagues, so cut this crap from our true facts blog.

      You obviously have no insight into Scottish football. Your posts are always a constant repetition of previous posts. OK, it fills the thread but unless you have something original to contribute perhaps you should have a wee think!

      Dons beat Rangers 3 times in Glasgow in one season. What a night!

    213. Petra says:

      You just wonder how many non-politically minded Scots are aware of the fact that ten despicable DUP (the political front for the Orange Order and worse) politicians are calling the shots for a Nation of over five million people?

      That’s the type of message that we should be getting across on our banners etc (and in the 2019 edition of the wee blue book, Stu …. hopefully!). You know a wakey, wakey, before it’s too late, type of message. Waken up to the fact that they’re infiltrating our Scottish Councils already, have an eye on Holyrood, and are no doubt planning to go “walk about” more often and further afield.

      Nicola Sturgeon:-

      https://mobile.twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1105396715706818560?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

    214. Thepnr says:

      So we have a vote Wednesday to accept or reject no deal. I think the result is more than obvious.

      Then we go into the vote on Thursday for an extension to Article 50. Well it seems likely that parliament will vote for an extension to article 50, no other choice exists if your honest.

      That’s now your pinch point, the UK ask for an extension and will the EU agree? I’d say they would definitely agree if there was a definite purpose but that looks unlikely at least to me.

      I can’t see at this stage any “definite purpose” being put forward but I’m still certain of an extension being agreed.

      The question is for how long?

      Two months or so is totally useless and everybody knows this, that is not enough time for another election never mind another referendum.

      The EU elections do matter and remember that Westminster can revoke article 50 at any point up until March 29th or later if given an extension. To me that says there is only one sensible thing to do and that is for the EU to give an extension for at least another year and force the UK to take part in the EU elections.

      The EU will tell the UK don’t bother coming back for and further discussions until you have made up your minds on what you want.

      This isn’t going to end soon I don’t think, if an extension is requested and granted then May must resign, she’s a bam though that might have to be shoved out the door.

      If she does go then that means a general election, more popcorn.

    215. CameronB Brodie says:

      Legerwood
      Thanks for your interest in my links on the previous thread. I’m not claiming to have all the answers, I’m simply pointing folk in directions they may not have been aware of, and which might help shed some light on problems our media are part of.

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, LOL, it’s an ill wind that blows etc. I was going to email some EU customers the next day or two to see if they wanted supplies before the stupid Brexit, but one got in last night with a nice big order – precisely because of the stupid Brexit. I guess they were watching the vote with shaking heads.

      It’s proforma meaning I get paid in advance (in GBP), which means I have more money to get some supplies from the EU before stupid Brexit makes it difficult and probably more expensive, plus some supplies dependent on the dollar considering the pound might crash and make THAT more expensive. Still at 1.31 which isn’t bad considering. I’ll have to try to make sure I keep enough so we eat. Beans on toast anyone? Again?

      A nail-biting time for any business doing business outside the stupid suicidal UK.

    217. msdidi says:

      Here is an interesting wee film about Luke Graham … http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PdgBswuYGk&t=11s

    218. Cubby says:

      For those asking about the BBC Scotland programme on Indyref1 watched both episodes and didn’t think much of them.

      Way way too much again on Murphy and his terrible terrible treatment when on his iron bru crate. Just like at the time the BBC went on and on about this. Never mentioned independence supporters getting their cars vandalised at Clarkston toll in his constituency when at a rally.

    219. yesindyref2 says:

      The BBCScotland Indy ref 1 and 2 programs are on iPlayer, I got them via Sky. Just half way through the first, and it got me thinking, so here goes.

      I remember fine the 2011 election results, what a wonderful thing that was, one win after the other as parts of Scotland turned yellow for 53 seats, plus of course the 16 list seats for an SNP overall majority. But did people vote SNP for Independence in 2011? I know a lot didn’t, they just liked the SNP performance, so here’s the first attempt to put some figures on that, from Oct 2012, just looking at SNP voters.

      https://web.archive.org/web/20160303183413/https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Scotland/SPOM_Oct12/Scotland_SPOM_Oct12_charts.pdf

      With 30% overall for YES, SNP voters were 80% YES eliminating don’t knows, but even more striking, just 67% YES keeping them in. 17% NO, 16% don’t know.

      In the event, according to Ashcroft immediately after the Ref, it was 86% YES, 14% NO. So 19% of SNP voters moved from NO or don’t know, to YES.

      Don’t ask me what point I’m trying to make, I huvnae got a scoobie.

      I think the series is a must watch, it’s bringing back memories 🙂

    220. yesindyref2 says:

      And, by the way, very relevant to what’s going on now – and will be during Indy Ref 2.

    221. Iain 2 says:

      O/t It is ironic the the state broadcasters output is falling on deaf ears through their earlier lies and the rise of Netflix and Amazon.

    222. Petra says:

      Professor John Robertson:-

      “Professor Murphy states that, “London is giving away Scotland’s oil revenue.”

      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2019/03/12/how-much-of-uk-oil-bonus-is-scotlands-how-much-is-it-worth-how-much-tax-revenue-will-we-get/

    223. yesindyref2 says:

      So, the current possibility I’m toying with is:

      1). Brexit cancelled “We’ll do it properly next time”
      2). ERG blamed as they made it impossible to get a deal
      3). May steps down so leadership election for the Tories
      4). Hammond who’s been quiet is asked to step up to the plate
      5). Indy Ref September it’s a YES
      6). Tories re-elected in 2022 in the rUK

    224. Nana says:

      Links

      https://www.gov.scot/news/growing-scotlands-export-performance/

      @Feorlean: “This Brexit deal will cause a crisis in the labour market across Scotland. And problems for Scotland in terms of competitiveness with Northern Ireland.”
      video
      https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1105479771599835136

      “…if that doesn’t crystallize the argument for Scottish Independence then I don’t know what does.” @NicolaSturgeon gives her take on tonight’s Brexit vote and what this means for Scotland’s future.
      https://twitter.com/BBCScotNine/status/1105584429412409344

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17494887.watch-mike-russell-says-david-mundells-role-has-no-function-at-all/

    225. Nana says:

      https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2019/03/65-of-scottish-public-want-second.html

      Podcast
      https://www.lesleyriddoch.com/2019/03/samantogether.html

      So. Here are the #NoDeal tariffs. Let’s just take a moment & remember who once told us that #NoDeal was better than a bad deal – @theresa_may take a bow & then please leave the stage
      https://twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1105729268078780416

      Beware the ides of March….
      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/300518970613534/

    226. Nana says:

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/theres-simple-solution-irish-backstop/

      Theresa May is at it!
      https://twitter.com/SamuelTBButler/status/1105594952623579136

      Lost & ruined: May humiliated once again by Commons
      http://archive.is/jL77W

      European council president sets out red line for extension to Britain staying in the EU
      http://archive.is/Xvx7v

    227. Nana says:

      This is very *very* important: tomorrow’s vote on a No Deal Brexit will not take no deal off the table, regardless of the vote outcome. Imagine it like a door that can only swing one way. If MPs vote in favour of no deal, that confirms and accelerates that outcome.
      https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1105564508343451648

      https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/tom-watson/news/102462/former-new-labour-rivals-bury-hatchet

      The Great NHS Heist
      https://www.facebook.com/TheGreatNHSHeist/videos/602489120196403/?t=0

      https://www.centreonconstitutionalchange.ac.uk/blog/westminster-should-acknowledge-and-respect-majority-northern-ireland

    228. Nana says:

      The UK is proposing to introduce tariffs on a wide range of imports in the event of a no-deal Brexit.
      https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2019/0313/1036033-brexit/

      British oil major BP successfully lobbied the Trump administration to roll back key climate regulations preventing the release of methane into the atmosphere, despite claiming to support the Paris agreement to limit global warming to well below 2C.
      https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/2019/03/12/bp-lobbied-trump-climate-methane-obama/

      Fake, foreign and far-right: Dodgy accounts uncovered pushing Brexit agenda on social media
      http://archive.is/tSuhZ

      http://www.brexitshambles.com/legal-challenges-have-revealed-brexit-puts-our-democracy-at-risk/

    229. Golfnut says:

      @Thepnr

      Or… today’s vote is all about transferring blame to the EU.

      This is a last minute rejection of a ‘NO DEAL’, the EU have made it clear that an extension requires a definite purpose, but if no definite purpose is put forward, the EU will not allow an extension. No deal by default. The media headlines will scream, bad EU, they won’t give us an extension.

    230. admiral says:

      A question for you all:

      Are the English not genetically programmed to govern?

    231. Robert Louis says:

      So today, instead of a ‘meaningful vote’ to take no deal off the table, the twisted corrupt lying bast***s in Downing street have worded the motion in such a way to ensure that no deal WILL happen, no matter how MP’s vote.

      This is just outrageous. It is an absolute affront to democracy AND COMMON SENSE.

      Scotland MUST,MUST,MUST get out of this ASAP. Come on Scottish Government, FFS what the F are you still waiting for.

      How much more of this stupidity must NS wait to see, before she knows it is a bad idea??????

      GET US OUT OF THIS insanity.

      (and YES, I am shouting), FFS.

    232. Ken500 says:

      There could be a GE or a EU Ref .soon. The total shambles is a disgrace, put the Tory/unionists and others out of their misery.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Do not be distracted by Polls in any way. They have often been wrong. So have the others so as to manipulate the vote. So they and their associates make money dealing on the stock markets. Do not trust them. They are used to manipulate the vote, especially on tight margins. The SNP must win a majority for better governance and Independence. Do not be fooled.

      Vote SNP/SNP and get another person to vote as well.That will get it over the line tor an outright majority. For a better run country. Independence is in the grasp. It has never been closer.

      Why have the Tories and the Westminster Gov not resigned. They are a world laughing stock,The Westminster unionists and others are cruel and nasty liars. Sitting in priviledge while they try to destroy the world. Habitual liars. Nearly every word they utter is a lie. A cabel of ignorant sychophants . Making illegal billions from other people’s unnecessary misery. Most of them should be kicked out of office or retired. They are so corrupt.

      The only thing SKyMSM get right is the time. Most of the time, they do not know what time it is.

      How much longer can this shambles continue for pity’s sake, Someone should put them out of their misery. Who do they think they are. Sychophant, lying psycho bastards.

      Another day even more chaos. Vote SNPSNP. Get someone else to vote too as well. For Independence. It will be inthe bag for a better future.

      .

    233. Ken500 says:

      The best time to have an Indy Ref is when it can be won. Due process must be followed. Or is not democractic It should go through the Ballot Box. Patience is a virtue. Ca canny. Let the dice fall. Let the runes align. Then is the time to act. It will be soon in any case. The SNP willl jniw when to act. Just enjoying the exciting ride. The pantomime of incompetence. To the Westminster collapse. Then use the vote. Do not be distracted. There is not luxury for that. SNP/SNP straight down the line. To victory. Get behind them. Stop criticising but start back up at every opportunity. When the Campaigning starts. It just need a slight push. A slight margin.

      Joanna Cherry got criminal Johnstone tell. Hanging his head in shame was a sight. He has had a make over trying to be PM. No chance now their vision shattered but still doing damage,

    234. Nana says:

      After the night the PM lost her voice, the second meaningful vote & control of Brexit, govt today kicking off with a publication of No Deal tariff plan (this via @EdConwaySky); 87% of imports will have zero tariffs. Only 13% of imports will face tariffs, inc beef, dairy, cars 1/
      https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1105727323335204865

      It’s here – the new tariff spreadsheet for all imports from across the world into UK including Europe eg 10.6% on all cars
      link to pdf here
      https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1105738024921505797

      Nissan to stop manufacturing Infiniti models in Sunderland, 250 jobs affected
      http://archive.is/zDtXp

      MEP Philippe Lamberts on last night’s vote
      video
      https://twitter.com/OxfordDiplomat/status/1105576464798412800

    235. Breeks says:

      What does rejecting No Deal explicitly mean? It is literally nonsense.

      No Deal is the default condition reached when the time runs out and there is still no agreement. Isn’t ruling out a No Deal akin to King Canute trying to turn back the tide?

      The only mechanism available to the UK with any capacity to “rule out” a No Deal is to revoke Article 50. It’s the only thing left in Westminster’s toy box. They might request an extension to Article 50, but that isn’t theirs to deliver, and does nothing to alter the prospect of No Deal, so ruling out No Deal must mean something else.

      Unless people were watching different reactions than the ones I was seeing last night, I think there is a very credible possibility there will be no extension beyond March 29th, or, assuming the EU can be persuaded the UK can deliver material progress, a short extension until the EU Elections which might begin as early as 23rd May.

      That Mid May extension leaves 69 days from now, to agree a new deal the EU will not renegotiate, or carry out a people’s vote which there isn’t time to conduct. Europe already asks the incisive question, what can be achieved with a postponement?

      It isn’t even clear whether the UK can still revoke Article 50 beyond 29th March, because once the deadline expires, it is debatable whether it remains Article 50 which is extant, or whether it has altered to become the charitable goodwill and sufferance of the EU which prevents the sky falling in.

      I’d give it 50/50 chances for a 6 week extension to Article 50, but chances for a longer extension beyond that are fanciful. Europe can, and in my opinion will, end this tiresome Brexit conjecture by throwing the kill switch on March 29th, with the possibility of a token stay of execution until mid May.

      The UK has 16 days to present Europe with a credible resolution to Brexit which it hasn’t been able to deliver in two and a half years. It is too late for any negotiation, too late further referenda, and too late for general elections or leadership changes. Instead it offers up a commons vote to rule out no deal which means wargle fargle fumdum…

      The EU would be just as well to ask the UK whether it intends to revoke Article 50 before March 29th, otherwise the UK will wake up on 30th March outside Europe.

      We have 16 days Scotland. 16 days. Save ourselves before March 29th.

    236. Ken500 says:

      So much happening. So much to read and watch. Where to start? An impossibility.

      It is still freezing even though it is March. In like a lion. Out like a lamb. When will it lighten up. A bit like Westminster unionists A bloody slaughter of their own making. Imbeciles of intransigence. Incompetent. Scotland is making it’s own way now to future decisions and destination.

    237. Macart says:

      @Nana

      James O’Brien not mincing words there Nana and in answer to his last question? The correct answer is no. No you wouldn’t trust the word of any of them.

      Which is precisely why it’s come down to process and legality, because morality and ethics are about as rare as chicken teeth in the political world. These creatures don’t do ethics and they’re only on the barest of nodding terms with honesty (sometimes not even that). The current crop infesting both government and honourable (cough) opposition respect only two things. Something a lot bigger and badder than them, or the weight of laws national and international when properly applied.

      Worth a thought. 😎

    238. Breeks says:

      By the way, when Europe asks what can be achieved with an extension of Article 50, it isn’t a rhetorical question.

    239. Ken500 says:

      Ireland could be United as well. A win, win. Moving into the 21st Century. A historic time in history to remember. That is memorable. A change in the world order for peace and prosperity. Not creating misery. More folk to get their freedom of expression and prosperity. What a great time to be alive. improving every minute.

      The Tory Party could be gone because of their behaviour. The average member is male and over seventy. Relatively small membership. This chaos and confusion could kill them off. Thirty years into oblivion. Never to resurrect. The life sucked out,

    240. Footsoldier says:

      I simply do not understand Nicola Sturgeon pushing for a second EU referendum. The outcome cannot be predicted and if it is remain in the EU, Scottish independence is effectively dead as former NO(to independence) voters will be even more entrenched in the status quo.

    241. Ken500 says:

      There is no need to shout or get frustrated. Even though it is annoying. Shouting turns people off and makes folk lose their voice and their sanity. Repeating the same mistake over and over, some people never learn. Don’t get angry, get even. Use your vote. Scotland is going it’s own way in any case.

    242. Ken500 says:

      It is better to remain in the EU for Independence. For EU fuller support that is preferable. Practical support.

      To honour people in Scotland wishes. A large majority want to stay in the EU. A democracy.

    243. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana. That link, below, just about sums the situation up now. The vote today is just a paper exercise. Treeza May doesn’t want a No Deal Brexit, as per Peston and others. I wouldn’t be surprised to see her dump the ERG crew / the DUP and erase her red lines by going for a deal that will command the support of the vast majority of parliamentarians, in particular the Labour Party. Peston also pointed out last night that Theresa would be crafty enough to threaten Corbyn with revocation of A50 becoming the default position.

      Just listening to the views of some politicians that are telling BBC presenters that the No Deal vote today if won will take that deal off of the table for all time coming (words to that effect). The ignorance of some people involved in running this country just beggars belief.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1105564508343451648

    244. Ken500 says:

      More evidence of Tory criminal child abuse and cover up at the Inquiry. All coming to light after they destroyed documents and denied. Liars always get found out.

      Thatcher knew of the abuse. She was told by the Police. It was known at the time. She said, ‘boys will be boys’. Politicians abusing children. The Police and M15 covered it up and used it for blackmail. Tried to keep it secret under the Official Secrets Act. ‘D’ Press notices.

      All coming out now. More devastating evil corruption. Most of the. Should be in jail.

      Peter Morrison was going to be charged for abusing a fifteen year old boy in public toilets and made to resign. The PM (Thatcher) Office phoned the Chief Constance to pressurise him to drop the charges (illegal). Morrison was just given a warning. A warning could not be reported in the local paper. Too many incidences to mention of criminal activities of Westminster, Most of them should be in jail.

    245. Ottomanboi says:

      The problem here is the English their establishment, their parliament, their political ‘mindset’, their cultural provincialism, their post-imperial pretensions and their arrogant notion of being ‘exceptional’ and somehow better, more reasonable than everyone else.
      There is an existential civil war going on in the heart of Englishness. Let the ‘most sophisticated electorate in the world’ get on with it.
      Engaging with the English and their internal spats has never done us, or the world, any good. We in particular have had centuries of troubled contact and immersion to show for it. Enough! Gloves off! Fight! Victory!

    246. manandboy says:

      The pressure is clearly continuing to affect some Yes supporters. Some even appear to think that Nicola is a one-man-band, making decisions from solitary confinement in a locked room deep in the bowels of Holyrood.

      Get a grip, lads. We can do so much better. Whatever happened to ‘Bonnie Scotland, we’ll support you ever more’?

      If you have stress then confront it. Try to avoid projecting personal stress onto others in a tirade of blame. Very human I know only too well, but it never makes things better. Quite the opposite, I’ve found.

    247. Bobp says:

      Footsoldier 8.33am. Thats got me stumped as well.

    248. jfngw says:

      I am still half expecting some duplicitous manoeuvring by T.May. Have them reject no deal then say as her deal is the only one on the table they are in effect accepting that deal. Currently my cynicism is off the scale, so maybe being too suspicious.

    249. TD says:

      Breeks at 8.05 am

      “It isn’t even clear whether the UK can still revoke Article 50 beyond 29th March, because once the deadline expires, it is debatable whether it remains Article 50 which is extant, or whether it has altered to become the charitable goodwill and sufferance of the EU which prevents the sky falling in.”

      It is absolutely clear that the UK can revoke Article 50 during any extension period and it is not debateable at all. Look at the ruling of the court in the Wightman case.

      The relevant words are:

      “…the answer to the question referred is that Article 50 TEU must be interpreted as meaning that, where a Member State has notified the European Council, in accordance with that article, of its intention to withdraw from the European Union, that article allows that Member State — for as long as a withdrawal agreement concluded between that Member State and the European Union has not entered into force or, if no such agreement has been concluded, for as long as the two-year period laid down in Article 50(3) TEU, possibly extended in accordance with that paragraph, has not expired — to revoke that notification unilaterally, in an unequivocal and unconditional manner, by a notice addressed to the European Council in writing, after the Member State concerned has taken the revocation decision in accordance with its constitutional requirements. The purpose of that revocation is to confirm the EU membership of the Member State concerned under terms that are unchanged as regards its status as a Member State, and that revocation brings the withdrawal procedure to an end.

      http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=208636&pageIndex=0&doclang=en&mode=lst&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=3630485

    250. Breeks says:


      Footsoldier says:
      13 March, 2019 at 8:33 am
      I simply do not understand Nicola Sturgeon pushing for a second EU referendum. The outcome cannot be predicted and if it is remain in the EU, Scottish independence is effectively dead as former NO(to independence) voters will be even more entrenched in the status quo…

      Unless it’s all a ruse, then I see no point to it either. It reeks of one idealistic step forward, that is blinkered and blind to the seven or eight practical and Constitutional steps backwards and several trips and stumbles over our own feet. All it can deliver is a superfluous mandate we don’t actually need, have already got anyway, yet which it seems we are about to squander for nothing in return.

      The only thing that forestalls despair is Ian Blackford asserting Scotland will not be removed from Europe against its will. But increasingly I wonder to whom such words are addressed, since there is no accordant anxiety apparently stirring in Westminster or Brussels. Are we merely content to have it mentioned in Hansard? Where is the potency behind such words?

      I hope the people’s vote waffle is just a smokescreen, because in my judgement, Scotland has barely more than two weeks left to put up, or shut up.

      If May is now reduced to mere political carrion, then the UK now has no credible interlocutor with Europe 16 days before the Brexit deadline. Scotland MUST exploit this political vacuum and bring Scotland’s sovereign Constitutional competencies to the top of Europe’s agenda.

      Don’t wait for IndyRef2 or EuroRef2, it has to be now, and good progress and traction secured before March 29th. We MUST show we have the political appetite for this.

      I hope the people’s vote strategy is a ruse, but sadly, I can’t say it is with any heartfelt confidence. It’s insipid enough to be the real thing.

    251. yesindyref2 says:

      Oh what a beautiful morning,
      Oh what a beautiful day,
      I’ve got a wonderful feeling,
      Everything’s going my way.

      Eh, oh, sorry, how’s it going for the rest of you?

    252. orri says:

      If there is a second EU ref then there’s a possibility that any Remain win will depend on Scotland’s votes.

      If that happens then expect any push for indyref2 to be high on the agenda of Brexiters.

      If it narrowly misses then it shows opinion in Scotland hasn’t moved an inch.

      Besides which the Great Fire of London kind of showed why you might be concerned if your neighbour decides to burn down his own house.

    253. K1 says:

      Much like indy when we lost in the event of a 2nd eu vote if remain won, Leave would continue to pursue EU exit +the uproar in England after a remain win. They would vote Tory (Johnson as Pm?) and we’d still be at mercy of democratic deficit.
      Independence is not predicated upon ‘no deal’ UKexit. UKexit mess just provides more manure for Indy2.

    254. Another Union Dividend says:

      Prof Ronald MacDonald quoting his numerous degrees obviously rattled in Scotsman letter pages after being accused of being a Better Together propagandist.

    255. Breeks says:

      Thank TD… I did kinda know that and was playing Devils advocate a wee bit, but happy to stand corrected.

    256. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Pretty much as expected. 🙂

    257. manandboy says:

      Ottomanboi. So right. A stethoscopic diagnosis of the corrupt energy powering the British Establishment.

    258. Dr Jim says:

      Ronald McDonald says Never mind the intelligence feel the width of my degrees

    259. Robert Peffers says:

      @Dr Jim says: 12 March, 2019 at 7:37 pm:

      ” … So Rip Van Prince Charles Winkle doesn’t even have a principality to Prince it over.

      Not quite, Dr. Jim. There is lots of confusion over this but the truth is that kingdoms, principalities and so on have little to do with geographic countries and countries have little or nothing to do with political states.

      For example in 1603 the union of the crowns was only a personal union for the then sitting monarch. The kingdoms he inherited remained independent kingdoms. Furthermore the countries within the kingdoms remained geographic countries.

      However the Kingdom of England was composed of three countries because, under the rule of law of, “Divine Right of kings”, it was legal for a monarch to annex a kingdom he/she had conquered and England, Wales and Ireland all had Divine Right as their rule of law – only Scotland did not.

      Which brings us back to the legal error of equating kingdoms with countries and/or political states. Thus the United Kingdom cannot ever be a country as Westminster assumes because Scotland’s rule of law, since before 1320, was not Divine Right of Kings.

      Hence the Westminster need to force a Treaty of Union in 1706/7 to form a United Kingdom. Under Divine Right there would have been no need for a Treaty Of Union as there would have been a legal union in 1603.

      Which brings up the erroneous idea that north and south Ireland are two different countries. What they are is one country divided a.k.a, partitioned by political rule. The country of Ireland is still the country of Ireland but is, “partitioned” politically. Not quite the same thing – unless you have the Westminster colonial mindset.

      A kingdom need not be a country and neither kingdoms or countries need be a political state. Example – The USSR was a political state but was never a country – it is now reduced again to being many countries.

      Monarchies, geographic countries and political states are all quite different things. The British Empire contained many countries but had only one monarch.

    260. mike cassidy says:

      Nana and Macart.

      If you thought James O’Brien’s slicing and dicing of Twohats Cox was good

      Have a look at what the extreme right wing had waiting in the wings once he made the judgement he did.

      http://archive.is/5OOpz

      One hat for each buttock, presumably!

      As for the btls….

    261. Dr Jim says:

      @Robert Peffers 9.34am

      I was actually sarcastically paraphrasing Paul Mastertons stupid attempt at belittling Wales and Scotlands positions in the world but some folk thought I was having a go at Wales position but that wasn’t the case, I’m well aware Wales is a country but many Unionists prefer not to be aware of it because it suits their denigrating agenda and brainwashing of the Twitter trolls they feed who engage in repeating their tripe

      I perhaps could have been more sarcastically obvious in my attempt at ridiculing Paul Masterton and that didn’t come across as well as it might

    262. manandboy says:

      jfngw says:

      I am still half expecting some duplicitous manoeuvring by T.May…. Currently my cynicism is off the scale, so maybe being too suspicious.

      Me too, jfngw, when I think on the Establishment, the Tories in particular, I sometimes think of a rattlesnake in a glass case with a mouse, and the rattlesnake says, ‘it’s OK, I won’t touch him.’

    263. Ken500 says:

      Tesco ad. ‘Nanna’s magic soup’

      Wings – Nana’s magic links.

      Thanks Nana – excellent. Thanks a billion Rev Stu and everyone for the info. Totally brilliant.

      Thank goodness for the internet.

    264. Dr Jim says:

      Tory MP Chris Skidmore on National TV just blamed the SNP for no deal Brexit

      That man’s mixed up in the head

    265. Old Pete says:

      Kaye Adams phone in very even handed with a good number of ro Independence callers. Not as biased as normal ?

    266. galamcennalath says:

      yesindyref2 says:

      1). Brexit cancelled “We’ll do it properly next time”
      2). ERG blamed as they made it impossible to get a deal
      3). May steps down so leadership election for the Tories
      4). Hammond who’s been quiet is asked to step up to the plate
      5). Indy Ref September it’s a YES
      6). Tories re-elected in 2022 in the rUK

      As likely a sequence as anything!

      I would say 5) & 6) are the most likely. How we get there is all a bit nebulous.

      The ERG (and DUP) 2) have been the problem. TMay set out her far-too-hard red lines too early to appease them. And since then she has continually tried to err to hard, while WM general opinion is soft. So they certainly deserve blame – from campaign bullshit right through.

      A point about 3) & 4). Tory leadership elections have two candidates chosen by MPs which then go to the membership, unless only one comes forward. ERG will try to keep a candidate in the running because they would be chosen by the wider membership. The Tories, however, have history of whittling down to two in WM using a stalking horse who then drops out leaving one. That tactic could be used to block out the ERG candidate! At requires considerable sanity from most Tory MPs!

      The other aspect in all this is an A50 delay which seems to me more likely that 1), cancellation. The EU might allow a short delay easily but would need a significant shift from the UK. Or, perhaps when the EU conditions are laid out, your 1) & 2) are all that’s sensibly left.

      We will know soon enough.

    267. Breeks says:

      Tweet from MichelBarnier…

      “The EU has done everything it can to help get the Withdrawal Agreement over the line. The impasse can only be solved in the #UK. Our “no-deal” preparations are now more important than ever before.”

      From the EU’s perspective Brexit is a two horse race, Withdrawal Agreement, or Hard Brexit.

      Withdrawal Agreement fell at the second to last fence last night.

    268. Ken500 says:

      Wales is a principality but could still be autonomous and run it’s own Gov/admin. Have better control and freedoms of actions. It people vote for it. Country (state) status and rights could be conferred. There is still higher support for Independence in Scotland by comparison.(pro rata). That could be considered.

      Wales voted for Brexit.

    269. Ken500 says:

      Arrogant Pell sentenced for child sex abuse. Will die in prison? Worldwide interest. Liars always get found out.

    270. manandboy says:

      The mystery remains. To Yes voters, the case for Scottish independence could not be any clearer, while for No voters, they just dont see it, and they refuse to believe the evidence.

      Same with England and Brexit. The benefits of remaining in the EU are overwhelming to Remainers, but Leavers see nothing of that, believing instead in Britain’s glorious new future free from the control of the EU.

      In this binary way of doing politics, not only are we witnessing a tectonic shift, but also the inevitable start of an era of upheaval and of unpredictable and unprecedented change.

      We all have memories of good times in the past. I say treasure them, for bad times are coming. And in fact, are they not already here, courtesy of the Blue Tories, with a little help from the Red side of the Unionist Establishment.

      Independence for sure, our top priority. But around us, things are coming apart at the seams.
      Eyes wide open, Scotland.

    271. Arthur Thomson says:

      Oh dear. Brexit seems to be in a bit of a mess.

      But the soft spoken one sees this as his opportunity to promote his 19th century ideology – if his country is reduced to rubble then that just makes the proles easier to herd. Of course the EU are so stupid that they know nothing about him and will be seduced by his soft voice and platitudes. He will have a deal in no time, perhaps.

      It probably explains why I’m poor but my money is still on Article 50 being revoked after another referendum.

    272. chicmac says:

      IY2

      Hammond?
      WTF?
      Why go for the monkey or the grinder when you can have the organ???

    273. Arthur Thomson says:

      Re blaming the SNP for no deal, this is unsurprising. We all know how crafty these Jocks can be when they are on the make. It was a mistake allowing them into the Mother f…er of all Parliaments in the first place. Show them a bit of respect (guffaw) and this is what happens. They make us look like the fucking idiots we actually are.

      ‘Nigel, I say Nigel …….’ ‘Jeremy, I say Jeremy ….’

      Schadenfreude is such a bitch.

    274. cearc says:

      Old Pete,

      Perhaps they’re having difficulty finding ‘noes’ that are smart enough to use a phone.

    275. Dr Jim says:

      Once the Tories realise there might be no Canapes and Lobster for lunch with their Sauvignon Blanc in the cheap dining room of the HOC

      They’ll buckle

      Hit them in their taste buds

    276. Liz g says:

      OT
      Just an FYI while I remember..
      Everyone should check the origin of their pet’s food before we are taken out of Europe!
      It can take time to change a brand without problems…
      Jist Sayin.. 🙂

    277. hackalumpoff says:

      BREAKING NEWS

      Theresa May is made redundant

      https://twitter.com/brj1937/status/1105712720907825152

    278. Haven’t people understood yet that we scots are to blame because we twisted the arms of the European negotiators up their backs, to force them not to give into Westminster’s demands.

      And we like Nicola, are too stupid to understand how good Theresa’s deal really is, which is why our MPs voted against it.

      Isn’t it amazing just how ungrateful we are to such a benevolent Westminster, which knows best what’s good for us

    279. manandboy says:

      Liars always get found out, says Ken500. Except that England has been lying successfully to Scotland, (and everyplace else) for 312 years, and still they haven’t been found out completely. A policy of secrecy and lies has served the British Establishment very well indeed.

      Enter David Cameron & now Theresa May, upholding the tradition of Colonial centuries, and fooling, as intended, the naive and the gullible, those who can be fooled all the time – particularly, or so it seems, in Scotland.

      So, please wake up, No voters, especially those from among the educated class. The illiterate and the feckless can be excused but not you. You are expected to look at the facts, to dwell on the evidence, to think for yourself, but instead your courage has failed you, and you have chosen meekly to believe the greedy lies of Westminster, and in so doing, have handed endless domination and exploitation to our Imperial Masters in England. And all the while laughing, like you did after Indy14, and patting each other on the back, as if celebrating how clever you are, as distinct from those perceived to be beneath you on the ladder of ability, poor sods.

    280. Bob Mack says:

      Re Nicola going for a people’s vote instead of milking the situation for indy.

      The duty Nicola has taken on is to govern for all of Scotland. That includes those who want to leave Europe. The very minute she alienates them and ignores them ,she has created enemies for life. This is showing them, she is trying everything for them as well as indy supporters.

      It seems difficult to accept at times, but it is necessary when you hold the reins of power for a country..

    281. Nana says:

      Save this and share

      That moment when the attorney general of the UK in #brexit debate talking about the #backstop, makes the case for Scotland to hold a second independence referendum to leave the United Kingdom. In England parliament is sovereign, in Scotland, the people are.
      https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1105463873363165184.html

      Kirsty talking to Victoria live

      @KirstySNP outlining how bad Theresa May’s deal would be for Scotland – even the Chancellor admitted that.
      https://twitter.com/olafdoesstuff/status/1105784538419134464

      EU ambassadors response to latest Irish Border plan : “This will require checks and could eventually lead to violence,”
      ambassadors told
      https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1105790473699016705

      Cabinet 90 mins
      Theresa May indicated she would whip against amendments today (straight no to no deal, Malthouse etc)
      thread
      https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1105769615064477697

    282. Arthur Thomson says:

      Just listened to Nicola on Sky – thanks to Nana.

      Brilliant. A completely coherent explanation of where it is at. That’s what happens when you know what you are talking about. She serves us so well.

    283. Luigi says:

      And so it begins, finally.

      The Brexit train has hit and disintegrated the Backstop buffers at high speed. The front end of the Constitutional train is already half way down the cliff and driver May is out of the cab in freefall.

      However, trains being huge, long, cumbersome beasts, the coaches at the end are as yet unaffected (slow motion crash remember). The momentum is taking them forward to destruction. In the last coach, there’s a gaggle of frightened Scottish red and blue tory MPs and hard NO voters wondering what the hell is going on. They will be put out out of their misery soon enough.

      Brexit Express, pride of the union. 🙂

    284. Nana says:

      NEW: The EU thinks that delaying Brexit makes sense only in three scenarios:
      link to article here
      https://twitter.com/AlbertoNardelli/status/1105787478445867008

      CBI chief Carolyn Fairbairn: says
      https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1105782703327203331

      Boris Johnson under fire over remarks about child abuse inquiries
      http://archive.is/vat7X

      That’s all for today

    285. Nana says:

      Well said Bob Mack at 11.15am

      @ Ken500 Nanna’s magic soup…I’m just off to make that soup from the tesco recipe. It better be as good as my own Brochan 🙂

    286. Luigi says:

      So it looks like a snap GE or EuroRef 2.

      And big trouble down south.

    287. Ken500 says:

      Manchester City trying to get child sex abuse compensation charges settled out of Court. They fear bad publicity. They are trying to cover it up. With NSO’s ? Support the perpetrators and the arrogant bullies. No wonder the terraces are empty. No discipline. About the Law and breaking the rules. Getting away with criminal behaviour. The violence spilling onto the pitch. A disgrace. Brexit increasing violence. People are getting so annoyed and angry. They seek an unhealthy outlet of frustration. Destroying the business. It is only a game. No one can be bothered with it.

    288. Nana says:

      Ach a couple more

      A little update on what’s happening as we enter another chaotic day in Westminster

      https://twitter.com/TommySheppard/status/1105792648374300673

      Today’s agenda
      https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190313v2.pdf

    289. jfngw says:

      Now then..Now then….Now Then. Blond ex TV personality believes child sex enquiry is just money ‘spaffed up the wall’. An unfortunate turn of phrase in any sexual investigation cases.

    290. Breeks says:


      Bob Mack says:
      13 March, 2019 at 11:15 am
      Re Nicola going for a people’s vote instead of milking the situation for indy.

      The duty Nicola has taken on is to govern for all of Scotland. That includes those who want to leave Europe.

      Then please delegate the promotion of Independence to someone who can actually give it their unconflicted attention, and someone who is fundamentally a Constitutionalist rather than a politician.

      Brexit is unconstitutional subjugation and breaks the back of the Union. What part of that needs voted upon? What aspect of that subjugation changes with a new vote?

      Have a people’s vote, win a mandate to stay in Europe, and deliver everything that was already delivered and at our disposal back in 2016. We still won’t have our Sovereignty recognised, we still won’t have Legal Personality, we still won’t be our own Interlocutor. We will still be excluded from UK negotiations with Europe. We still won’t be an independent sovereign nation. We will still be the laughing stock and cash cow of Westminster.

    291. Ken500 says:

      Aye soups alright to sup. Bet Nana’s is ace. Just like the links. Pity about Tesco’s criminality bad fraud. Backing Tories instead of staying neutral. Fiddling the figures and getting away with it. Instead of ending up in jail. It is the Tory – unionist others way, Getting away with murder, Westminster lies and deceit. Now catching up with them.

      A kettle of stinking fish. A cauldron of poison, fettering lies. Sanction and starving people. Needing ingredients from food banks to make a pot of soup. A terrible Westminster indictment. They can rot in hell. When grey judt go away. Disapear into the sunset, For S better dawn. A realignment in the world.

    292. People on here seem to forget that the ref., on 2014 the head eu officials were lining up to condem Scottish independence and look how they are treating the People of Catalonia I voted leave but how people on here think they getting rid of 1master to gladly take on 27 other masters is independence is beyond me .As the song says when will they ever learn when will they ever learn???

    293. geeo says:

      Orri @9.25.

      The Great fire of London was no ‘accident’ in pudding lane.

      It was started to wipe out the plague.

      Great Plague of London: 1665-1666.

      Great fire of London: 1666.

      Coincidence my hat.

    294. Giving Goose says:

      Blair.

      BritNat propaganda appears to have influenced you.
      The EU 27 will not be masters.
      They will be partners.

    295. Ken500 says:

      Nicola and the SNP are doing the right thing, A complete strategy that will not fail. Exactly right. Every move. In any event Brexit, hard soft, GE/EU. They are increasing support for good governance and Independence in Scotland. Protecting people, They are positioning exactly right. Not missing a legitimate move. Gaining support from all quarters, including the people. Until it is time to move. They have not put a foot wrong, Doing the right thing, as usual. Working with the democraph changes, It is almost awesome. Good, smart, caring people. They have never made a bad move or let people down in Scotland/world.

      Standing up for Scotland and the people. They have never got it wrong. Or let people down. Always done the right thing, In spite of massive obstacles and set backs, positioned against them.

      People need to support them. They need all the support they can get, To change the world for the better. A better bright future of a new world order is acheivable.

      Just watch the Tories destroying themselves. They. will disappear into oblivion. Demographics. They have destroyed their own Party. Along with the rest of the ignorant, arrogant incompetents at Westminster. What a shower.

    296. Breeks says:

      Lifted from Twitter…

      Michel Barnier has told senior MEPs this morning that there is no clear majority yet among the member states for any extension at all.

      Guy Verhofstadt: “I am against any extension of Article 50, even for just 24 hours, if it is not based on a clear opinion from the House of Commons in favour of *something*.”

      I repeat myself from earlier… “…when Europe asks what can be achieved with an extension of Article 50, it isn’t a rhetorical question”.

    297. Ghillie says:

      ‘Where Have All the Flowers Gone?’ was a protest song against war.

      Which is one of the main reasons for the European Union being formed.

      Scotland’s place within the European Union will be as an equal member amongst 28 members 🙂

      Scotland is treated with contempt in this corrupt and defunct ‘United Kingdom’.

      There is no comparison. Only contrasts.

      I think we are all aware that many many folk are now deeply regretting their choice to vote Leave.

      Especially those enjoying life on the European mainland who did not realise they could soon be asked to leave in the midst of the British government’s treatment of folk who are living and working in the UK.

    298. Golfnut says:

      @ Blair Paterson.

      So by your reckoning, the 27 other EU members are going to be ganging up on Scotland, making us do things we doesn’t want to do, or is it that all individual states will individually, all by themselves, have power over Scotland. Not really a credible argument, is it.

    299. Ghillie says:

      Ken500 @ 12.21 pm

      Very well said 🙂

    300. Sarah says:

      @cearc 10.42 – Ooft!!

      @Liz g 10.50 – you’re right about pet food origin. I checked my dog’s favourite treat [a lovely meaty sausage] and found it comes from Austria – I bought 3 packets. Might need to eat it myself, of course!

      Nana: many thanks again for the links [no pun intended – see above!].

    301. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Blair Paterson @ 12:09,

      Try some actual fact-finding before parading your ignorance on here.

      If what you said were true, then each of the 27 would be being bullied by all the rest. A mutual bullying society? A most curious state of affairs. And they would all consequently be clamouring to leave.

      Which they very obviously are not. Not one. Not even little Malta.

      That’s the problem with Leaver arguments, they are all just empty slogans, baseless xenophobic slander. mindless windbaggery.

      As has been astutely told about Trump, but applies to Leave just as well, if you don’t realise you’re being conned, you’re the mark.

    302. Ken500 says:

      The EU have no power to act in Catalonia, Spain is a sovereign State. Spain, Catalonia have governance of themselves and Spanish/Catalonia polititicans are the cause of the dispute. In Spain/Catalonia all politicians are corrupt. Total political scandal. All over Spain and Catalonia. Catalonia politicians are corrupt as well. Massive fraud since the 1990’s. Only getting sorted out now, Corrupt people are gong to prison for 50 years. They made £Billions out of the people with corrupt actions. In Catalonia too. The people in Spain despise all politicians with a passion. In Catalonia as well. It has led to a rise in the right wing.

      The EU can’t deal with that. It does not have the right or the legislation. It is individual nations coming together mainly for trade. Do people expect the EU to put troops in. Or what? It would only make it worse. Another illegal war? Do people not get sick of it. The EU was established to prevent war and starvation in Europe/world. In that it has been successful. In Spain people are quite happy in the EU. There is great support for it. Spain/Catalonia benefits greatly from EU menbership. That is why they so eager for it.

      It is a pity EU citizens were not compensated for the Spanish fraud perpetuated on them. In the holiday property scandals on the Costas. 2008 onwards. In cohorts with British businesses and banks. A Law unto themselves. EU citizens lost £Billions and were taken to the cleaners.

      SpainCatalonia has to clear up theur own mess. It has nothing to do with EU governance. Quite the opposite. Spain benefits greatly from the EU. The EU/ECB saved the Spain/Catalonia economy. They lent them lots of money to sort out their financial problems (of their own making.) Some of the loaned money ended up in crooked polticians criminal hands. £Billions of it . That is being sorted and some of the money is being taken for compensation. Assets seized and recompense Although some of it is lost. In Catalonia as well.

      Royalty partners have been charged and ended up in Court. Lawyers, business people,politicians, high ranking civil servants, mayors. Put in jail for years. It is still going on. A major trial just finished weeks ago. Waiting for sentence (50 years). A multimillionaire. £Billions being exchanged and embezzled from the people. Now being seized for compensation,

      There were reports Catalonia was disputing £4Billion (a year?). That was expected to be hand over to central Gov. That was the basis of the dispute. A Spain Court ruled they could keep it. Barcelona/Catalonia is one of the most prosperous/wealthy parts of Spain. There seems to be a system of distribution between the different parts. Catalonia can raised and lower it’s own taxes. It can make it’s own Laws and rules. Automous from Central Gov but not completely financially.

      Catalonia is not Scotland. Different comparable and outcomes. . Catalonia a Provence has more rights than Scotland a country, in a supposed equal Union. Westminster have been breaking the rules since Edward 1. Breaking every agreement before the ink is signed and after. Just as they are now doing with the EU. Trying to destroy it but they are destroying themselves. The Tory psycho bastards, They destroy what they want to maintain and retain by not remainig. Doing the same thing over and over again and getting the same result. Some people never learn. They have not got a clue.

    303. chicmac says:

      Westminster interference in Scotland is far, far greater than EU interference in the UK.

      The EU confines itself to only those things which impinge upon a common market:

      The laws governing the quality of goods.
      The laws governing the free movement and employment of workers.
      The laws governing workers rights (although they allowed the UK to opt out of some of those already)
      The laws governing trade internal to the EU in goods and services.
      The laws governing infringement of basic human rights. (Subordinate to the ECHR).
      EU sourced grant structures, e.g. CAP (in high income areas of the planet food production has to be subsidised otherwise it would lead to vast tracts of food producing land not being used which in a World where starvation is still commonplace, is morally reprehensible. We can’t all just do an England.)

      They do not interfere in:

      Foreign policy, health provision, taxes (corporation, income and VAT), defence, education, justice system (within the overall HR concord), welfare, pensions, media control, housing provision, infrastructure provision policy, drugs policy, transport policy, banking regulation (interest rates etc.), energy policy and numerous other things, because they do not impinge on the common marke so are still up to each member state’s own government to determine.

      Different in Scotland re Westminster.

    304. Thepnr says:

      @chicmac

      I’m being a bit pedantic here but the EU do set the minimum VAT rate.

      “The EU sets the broad VAT rules through European VAT Directives, and has set the minimum standard VAT rate at 15%. The 28 member states are otherwise free to set their standard VAT rates.”

      https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-rates/european-vat-rates.html

    305. sandy says:

      Breeks @12.02 pm.

      SNP is not a one-person band.

    306. Az says:

      Late to this party. Just to say: Green Party, this is why I will find it extremely difficult to leand you a second vote, sould the situation of another Scottish election arrive before independence.

    307. Az says:

      Complete with typos and everything! Lend; should.

    308. Reconvene says:

      am a casual watcher of football, when it is ever on terrestrial TV. But nowadays it’s mostly broadcast on subscription TV channels; which I don’t subscribe to, BBC or ITV only broadcast highlights on TV, late on in the evening of games that have been played that day, or repeats of previous games.

      A while ago when Scottish clubs were regularly at high level in the European league tables and winning trophies or when Scotland was qualifying for the world cup, every body knew who the players were, and knew their names and would cheer at home watching them on TV when they scored goals for their club or their Country. Have a look at the list of famous Scotland’s football players.

      Football on TV has become an exclusive football sport to to fans who watch it on subscription TV with the result that anybody that is not able to tune to these channels will not readily know who those players are, or what their names are. The result is that they are not household names now.

    309. Gary says:

      The withdrawal of The Offensive Behaviour Act was a cynical action on behalf of the opposition parties to dogwhistle support from bigots.

      Previous ‘Initiatives’ on Sectarianism have centred, rather obviously around The Old Firm. Joint press conferences to ask supporters to be nice to each other, blah blah. All very ‘official looking’ to ensure they ‘looked like they gave af’

      But recently, having the misfortune to find myself living across the street from an ‘Old Firm’ supporters club I noted that, despite the club’s earlier announcements on keeping religion out of football, they actually have the Orange Order going on their marches from it and even allow them to use their hall for ‘band practise’ (how much do you need to practise on one of those big drums?) Now the Orange Order would even describe THEMSELVES as a ‘Religious political organisation’ (says so on their website – yeh, they’ve actually got one!) So did this local ‘Old Firm supporters club’ not get the memo – or am I right in thinking the clubs DEPEND on sectarianism for their support? NB I won’t name the actual ‘team’ I’m talking about that have the Orange Marches, just in case anyone would think I was unfairly targeting a particular team…



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