A trick we’ve seen before
The Scotsman is delighted to have some bad news to report:
So, the number of teachers is falling, right?
Well, no.
Alert readers who know how to interpret the Scottish media might have had warning klaxons blaring in their heads already, on account of the Scotsman’s inexplicable comparison to 2008 – a date of no particular relevance to anything except that it marked the beginning of the financial crisis which led to the UK government’s austerity programme and the slashing of the Scottish Government’s budget.
But what would happen if we were to pick a different arbitrary starting point?
What we’d actually find is that secondary-school teacher numbers in Scotland have been rising for the last three years, in keeping with pupil numbers. In previous years they’d fallen slightly, also in keeping with pupil numbers.
(The movement in any given year, in either direction, has never been more than roughly one teacher per school of 800-900 pupils.)
If we go back to the start of the century – the first full year of devolution – there was one teacher for every 12.95 pupils in Scottish secondary schools. After the last eight years of austerity and budget cuts there’s now one teacher for every 12.27 pupils, which is a modest improvement.
(It’s the same ratio there was in 2005, after a decade of economic boom.)
Let’s just do that ratio for every year:
It’s… it’s not exactly a cliff edge, is it?
The truth of the matter is that the number of teachers in Scottish secondary schools has in real terms barely moved in 20 years, and the movement there’s been over that period has been a positive one. The figure has been almost completely static since UK government austerity began in 2010.
Literally the ONLY way you can portray it as a perceptible decline (and even then it’s still a tiny one) is to arbitrarily count from 2007 or 2008, which by a quite astonishing coincidence is the time period the Scotsman and the Tories have chosen.
It’s all rather strikingly reminiscent of a story we ran in 2016, when another increase in teacher numbers was again presented by the Scottish media with the most negative spin possible, by singling out individual local authorities where numbers had fallen.
And that’s because in Scotland, all news must be bad news.
Teacher numbers must have fallen. What else could explain the dire numeracy skills of these journalists? Remedial classes required.
Sighs ruefully!
Jeez you are good Rev.
Unionism supporters must absolutely hate you for calling out their media manipulation.
Are Editors at Scotchman now using placement students for their front line research material ???
Ahhhh, The Scotsman, reporting a drop in maths and English teachers with a picture of a chemistry one. Fuds.
They’re so sleakit. And by now so obvious.
Where ‘up’ means ‘down’ and ‘falling’ is the ‘equivalent’ of rising and where ’23 317′ is less than ’23 150′ which itself is less than ’22 957′ you’ve got to congratulate the journalists at the Scotsman and the Tories for their excellent numeracy and English language skills.
Must be coz of the ‘plummeting numbers of teachers.’
Groan.
Sigh.
The BBC and the rest of the British Nationalist MSM don’t even try to hide it or dress up the propaganda anymore. Just downright, blatant lies. How can any year in the past be carefully selected to compare with the present situation?
It’s like saying there is no evidence of global warming because the earth is considerably cooler than it was three million years ago.
This deliberate attempt to misinform readers makes my blood boil.
Scotland also has a better teacher per pupil ratio than anywhere else in the UK. Don’t see that mentioned in the Scotsman’s story either.
Another great article from Wings.
It is important that we get such stuff out to the public via social media, phone ins and letter columns as the Brit Nat media has an inbuilt bias.
Don’t leave this to others as everyone who believes in an independent Scotland needs be more pro active and keep showing Scotland in a positive light particularly compared to the shambles public services are in England and Wales.
Its amazing how Scotland’s overall “everything/being” became “SH*TE” when the SNP came to power.
Must be true cause the Yoon meja says so.
“Aye Right enough”.
Dunno how Rev manages to make these connections in his heid. Mine’s getting nippy just thinking about it…
🙁
I had a debate with a teacher over the recent pay award.
They argued it wasn’t good enough and if the country wanted to address teachers leaving in droves the offer would need to be better.
I pointed out similar stats and observances to Stu, that the number of teachers is closely correlated with the number of pupils and there was no evidence of teachers leaving in droves. The response was irrational nonsense followed by then deleting everything they had said.
Might also be worth considering the falling birth rate too. Pupil numbers no bolstered by immigration either. So teacher numbers rise in the face of falling pupil numbers?
‘We’ve just released new birth figures – 12,580 births were registered in Scotland in Q4 of 2018, the lowest ever Q4 total. That’s 5.9% lower than Q4 of 2017.’
link to twitter.com
Englaisi media in Teneriffe
Express/Mail/English media all the same May has got ah good deal
Hows yous all at home behaving ah hope.
My wife was a headteacher in a primary school and pupil numbers dropped year after year in a labour held area. Rather than upset parents they kept schools open for years which were undersubscribed and nearly empty. Millions of pounds was wasted.
Simply reporting the news isn’t what these hacktivists do.Yes,that’s right: HACKTIVISTS.
Eh? The article is about English and Maths teachers.
Not the total teacher figure.
For this article to be coherent please tell us the
Per pupil ratio for these subjects.
Does anyone still doubt that articles like this Scotman one are anything other than contrived propaganda?
Is it not obvious that the object here was to write another piss poor SNPBaaad story?
How many countries in the world have as much fake newsn their media?
Why is it great Sinky?
He’s conflating a report about English and Maths teachers with TOTAL teacher numbers.
Nailed them again stu
Suck that up bbc
Not to defend the MSM or anything, but the comparison (whilst welcome for overall knowledge in arguments with Labour types) doesn’t really work. The article is specifically about Maths and English teachers. The total teacher number doesn’t really refute their statement as we could be seeing a huge rise in gender studies teachers or some other such new age rubbish.
And knowing the Maths and English scenario is quite important as these are the 2 most important subjects for anyone applying to almost any further education.
Ah the good old Hootsmon, sister paper to the Edinburgh Evening Times who have been running a poll about people wanting another indy ref. … or not.
Incompetence and ignorance seems to run in the “family”.
I wonder what could possibly go wrong? 😀
link to twitter.com
link to twitter.com
When will this rag close it’s doors?
It is not being kept open by sales. So who is paying?
Totally agree Ian B 😀
Ronnie we always behave – you’re the bad influence man 😉
Hope you’re having a good rest btw
@ ronnie anderson – happy holiday Ronnie – you’re missing Yet Another Momentous Week in Politics in Old Blighty. Lucky you!
Clootie says:
It would serve no purpose for it (and others) to continue beyond independence. Much of their raison d’être has become pro Union / anti Scottish propaganda so traditional media business models are irrelevant. After Indy, any reason for continuing will be have gone.
The same is probably true for all the old Scottish broadsheets. The tabloids might survive on gossip, murder, and fitba for a while. ‘Scottish’ versions of English papers must have a very low life expectancy.
Bbc Politics live again ignores the SNP and cuts out coverage of Kirsty Blackman’s response to Chancellors Spring Statement. Scotland doesn’t count for the London media that influences those who don’t closely follow politics
Ross says:
13 March, 2019 at 12:56 pm
Why is it great Sinky?
He’s conflating a report about English and Maths teachers with TOTAL teacher numbers.””
……………
The factors which affect total teacher numbers – decrease in the number of schools, decrease in the number of pupils – will also act to reduce the number of teachers in any given subject area.
Therefore just reporting the fall in the number of teachers of English and Maths is fairly meaningless and, as such, misleading.
Only by showing the number of teachers in each of the subject areas over that time period as a percentage of the teachers in each subject area and comparing those figures to the fall in English and Maths, as a percentage of total number of English and Maths teachers at each time point can you then say that the fall in E&M is above what you might expect when the number of schools and number of pupils are declining.
That is a lot of number crunching. In the absence of that comprehensive data then noting the fall in the total number of schools and number of pupils goes some way to explaining the fall in the number of E&M teachers.
Reporting it in the way the newspapers have done without the context provided by including the fall in the number of schools and number of pupils is deliberately misleading.
The Rev has provided that context.
galamcennalath says:
13 March, 2019 at 1:43 pm
Clootie says:
When will this rag close it’s doors?””
…………
Hopefully not too soon given that Brexit may interrupt supplies of toilet paper.
Legerwood I disagree. You’re quite correct to point out the flaw in the article and its cherry picking of data to serve its own agenda, but to state that the trend overall for teachers is going to be similar for English and Maths without providing evidence really doesn’t add up. Without the figures to hand one could easily make the opposite conclusion- the Maths and English results must be total outliers and that’s why the hootsmon has jumped on them.
Normally the Rev refutes these things very well, but on this occasion I don’t think the claims of the article have been addressed at all.
Using surrogate data is almost always unhelpful and often harmful.
[…] Wings Over Scotland A trick we’ve seen before The Scotsman is delighted to have some bad news to report: So, the number of teachers […]
@Ross 12.53
I agree ratios are needed but I think the original article omits them as well? The problem is the screaming headline which immediately conjures up images of children leaving school illiterate and innumerate because of the lack of teachers.
I don’t know about the CfE but I was aware that previously pupils could avoid both English and Maths at Higher and avoid one or the other at Standard grade in some schools if they wanted, something never allowed in my day. Maybe the numbers in Maths and English, which were always historically high, fell and are now picking up.
All speculation of course, which is why these articles are so damaging. Maybe some clarification all round would be more useful from the MSM.
I think the Mail goes on class numbers rising as well. Again headline only but I wonder if it mentions whether some are composite classes because of the falling intake at P1?
At least we know what the Labour and the Tories will lead on at FMQs this week.
@Martin
The tables they are using are here, table 3.9.
link to www2.gov.scot
They are excluding teachers that teach English and Maths as well as other subjects. Including these, it’s difficult as the totals for the previous years don’t indicate if these dual teachers are included, they are the highest numbers in Eng & Maths since 2012.
Why do you think those two headlines are incompatible? One says the number of Maths and English teachers has fallen. The other says thee number of teachers in total has risen. It is perfectly conceivable that both these statements are true.
It’s covered by the teacher pupil ratio, but in those 20 years there was a drop in birth rate, not sure how many years of if consistent. Like this / last year because of Brexit.
Looking ahead 10 or 11 years, there would therefore be a slightly lower need for teachers. So a chart of births in a year would also help.
jfngw
That’s good, but it still doesn’t solve the issue. Looking at overall teacher numbers to prove the hootsmon article wrong is as flawed a method as looking at the English and Maths teachers in isolation over a one year period in telling us what we want to know. I’m aware that unless the Hootsmon had themselves started this with subset reporting this would all be moot, but start it they did and I’m afraid that’s the thing we need to challenge.
We should call Professor McClownFace to check these numbers for us.
– and tell us how many degrees he’s got as well.
been doin some economicalist researching of my own – do you know …
50% of people are BELOW average, think on that.
we have an SNP gubmint, think on that.
– coincidence, no?
under a Labour, unionist govt, 50% of people were ABOVE average – thinkon that.
ABOVE or BELOW. Your choice.
changed my view entirely. wait till lenny-the-dick hears about this.
What will all the foreign newspaper owners do when Scotland shortly becomes independant?
I doubt the journos concerned are innumerate. It’s like Creation ‘Science’. I was visiting my eldest sister down under a while back and they had a ‘Science’ mag from the Creation ‘Science’ Institute and it had as a cover article something I knew about. The twisting of it made my head hurt but it was absolutely obvious that whoever wrote it MUST have properly understood the science in the first place in order to be able to distort it in that way.
The Americans call this Lying For Jebus. I think Unionist rag/MSM TV journos are Lying For Brenda/Theresa. This is deliberate not due to innumeracy.
Who actually buys the Scotsman, you’d need to be a right doom and gloom monger to purchase such a rag. Thankfully its circulation is not ehzt it once was.
@Legerwood
“Therefore just reporting the fall in the number of teachers of English and Maths is fairly meaningless and, as such, misleading.”
Sorry but it’s not meaningless at all. It’s extremely important to know what proportion of total teachers are in those subjects. And the proportion of those teachers to pupil.
I would suggest it’s fairly meaningless and misleading to bulk all teach together and give an overall figure actually.
@SilverDarling
I’m not suggesting the article being analysed is perfect. I like WoS for debunking this kind of thing but his analysis doesn’t do that. He also omits context.
There’s absolutely no context given at all from WoS on Maths and English teachers in his article. His first question has nothing to do with the point being made in the article. That should give anybody pause for thought.
I’ll call out when our side have it wrong too.
@martin.
Clearly you are not here to be convinced of anything.
You have had at least 2 explanations yet still you bump your agenda.
Its not our fault you cannot understand those explanations.
Maybe you should have paid more attention in School.
Although Educational Theory is not my speciality, I think the the ‘fundamental British values’ (FBV) agenda is problematic.
link to if.org.uk
‘Our education system may be far from perfect, but criticism should at least be based on solid research…’
…and, sadly, that cannot be said about the latest report from the Education Policy Institute, writes one investigative journalist
link to tes.com
Criticisms of educational research: key topics and levels of analysis
link to tandfonline.com
The Great British Values Disaster – education, security and vitriolic hate
link to irr.org.uk
OT – jings
Apparently the “Malthouse Compromise” is back in play. Well, if it relies on tech like cameras and ANPR the chances of any such equipment surviving along a 310 mile long border with as many as 275 crossing points as the BBC describe it, through largely Republican land as someone somewhere back in Dublin possibly wearing jeggings pointed out, for more than one night, is precisely nil.
I suspect that if the Colony, Scotland, was somewhere in Africa, the Scotsman would have been the subject of more than a few accidental fire investigations.
The broadcasting of lies ought to be a criminal offence. But then, this is the motherland of the British Empire – lying for over 300 years.
@geeo 13 March, 2019 at 2:56 pm
What a blinkered and unengaged response. I have no agenda except the hatred of surrogate outcomes. I’ve had 2 explanations about how teacher numbers in general can be assumed to be reflected in the maths and english fidures. Assumptions are dangerous and damaging.
Resorting to personal insults is petty and beneath the level expected on this site. I’d wager my educational achievements would surpass yours, if I were the type to engage in that sort of tripe.
According to the hootsman and the other presstitutes it wouldn’t matter the subject , whether it be edumacation or finance the SNP SG are baaaaaddd and the britnat onionist parties would always do better
I mean you only have to look at the super dooper administration taking place in the other UK countries where presstitute reports recently highlighted that head teachers were appealing to parents to set up direct debits to fund not only school materials but also the maintenance of the fucking buildings their kids are taught in , they have suggested these DD’S should be for £ 12 to £ 1400 pounds per annum per pupil WTAF.
Instead of apologising , rationalising or excusing the baaaaddd SNP administration we should be highlighting the huge clusterfuck that the liebour and tory parties are making in their edumacation administration
Michael Gove right now showing in the HoC, what a miserable wee spineless turd of a creepy wee suck up, he is. I don’t know why he doesn’t just crawl right up Theresa May’s a**e.
The most important subject taught in British schools including University, is British Propaganda. It is also the premier subject in the Lifelong Learning scheme. So a spokesman for the Conservative & Labour Party is alleged to have said.
Martin@3.02pm.
I bet your da’s bigger than my da’….!!
What a pathetic entity you are.
geeo says:
13 March, 2019 at 3:25 pm
Says the anonymous person who failed to grasp any of my points, started a personal attack and accused me of an agenda? My response was appropriate and heavily influenced with satire. Perhaps you should go away and think about how you engage in polite debate with people.
It is reported that sources inside West Bromich Albion are tipping Steven Gerrard to take over as head coach with immediate effect following the sacking od Darren Moore.
WBA still have an outside chance of an automatic promotion chance so the Midlands club are prepared to offer £6 million in compensation to RFC if Gerrard agrees to leave Ibrox this week.
Rumours that Tavernier and Morelos will be Gerrard’s summer targets are played down by the Ibrox Board as Press speculation.
Now that’s what I call news these days.
Gove is a fecking wee arse of a man
Gove is a fecking wee scamp of a man
Gove is wee fecking shit
BTW watched the indy14 prog on bbc jockland last night , was impressed by the highlighting that WOS was the place to go for the truth and the debunking of the lies spewed by the msm media , I wonder how many new people will visit to find out if it is indeed true
Also noted that AS then and NS now are facing the same onslaught of currency questions , why don’t they give grumpy bob’s (keys ) forthright reply that Scotland ALREADY has it’s own currency the Scottish pound and will continue to use it , and the bank of england is not owned by england but is jointly owned by Scotland , and when we leave we will be looking for our share of the proceeds
Some folk aren’t going to like this but not everything in the philosophical direction Scotland is taking is peachy. The direction of travel is sound, it’s just that some of the footing is sounder than others.
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Critical approaches to education-based meritocracy: the case of Britain
link to sirisacademic.com
PRIMARY EDUCATION: WHAT IS AND WHAT MIGHT BE
WHAT WORKS AND WHAT MATTERS: EDUCATION IN SPITE OF POLICY
link to robinalexander.org.uk
This is why we need Wings.
re. Michael Gove. The man’s a total buffoon.
link to educationengland.org.uk
I would quite like to hear Tinto Chiel’s take on all of this…
“Broadsword calling Tinto Chiel…Broadsword calling Tinto Chiel…”
🙂
Gove, if this is his pitch for the top job, get us out of there pdq. Things may fly at the screen shortly.
Plummeting Crashing, all hope is lost, disaster looms, the end is nigh, carelessnes recklessnes cavalier attitude the SNP are the devil, the trouble is comics like the Scotsman have been doing this for so long they can’t get out of the habit and they could think about hiring a maths teacher to count their sales figures for doing it, nobody believes this nonsense anymore, a teacher leaves, there are more training up to do the job just like any business that has staff turnover, but no, comics like the Scotsman try to make their ridiculous point by almost inferring a person cannot and will never be replaced by another because Scotland is incapable of finding people to fill a job
Just like Michael Gove poses as a human the Scotsman poses as a newspaper, and everybody can see right through Michael Gove
Back from 1943 to 1948 in secondary school, no teacher taught only English or maths, they usually taught geography or history as well.
O/T
Big bribe to the “Borderlkands” from Hammond announced today. Mundell must know his bum is oot the windae
O/T
Corrected. Message to self – correct copy before posting it
Big bribe to the “Borderlands” from Hammond announced today. Mundell must know his bum is oot the windae.
@Robert Louis
I think he did and she’s taking a dump.
Jack collatin at 3.35
I wonder if the bears know that Gerrard went to a kafflic school and his fourth child is called Lourdes.
@Ross 2.45
Fair point.
We are not here to slavishly agree about everything. If we can do it reasonably then even better. We are probably all more accomplished at critical reading than 6 years ago!
70th anniversary of the George Orwell novel `1984`,
first published in June 1949,
UK/Scottish politics and media,
“You are a slow learner, Winston.”
“How can I help it? How can I help but see what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.”
“Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.” .
OT
That order to mainland EU I mentioned, courier is 48 hours guaranteed standard priority. Good price too, hardly any more than to the H&I – and that’s a great price relative to other couriers, the one I use, just 50% more than “inland UK”.
re. our critical reading skills,
link to skillsyouneed.com
Critical thinking
Critical reading
link to library.leeds.ac.uk
Succeeding in postgraduate study
Session 4: Critical reading and writing
3 Being critical in your writing
link to open.edu
Robert Louis
Probably because he would find the way blocked by James Kelly’s legs.
@SilverDarling
What I used to do to get the news was read the Telegraph and the likes of the Guardian (can’t remember which other main one was labour), and see what’s in common, fair chance it’s near the truth. Or maybe the Record and the Mail! I kept a salt cellar ready when watching the BBC. Scotland was never properly covered of course, by any of them, though the Glasgow Herald was pretty good in those days, way better than the London-centric Scotsman.
‘I’d wager my educational achievements would surpass yours, if I was the type to engage in that sort of tripe.’
I think you just did show that you are indeed into that sort of tripe. =)
Betcha Latrine’s in Leaskys cluster.
ross @ 2.45 pm
Ok, I shall put it another way.
From 2008 to 2018 the number of teachers of English fell from 2992 to 2473 which is 519 teachers. This is a drop of 17%.
From 2008-2018 the number of maths teachers fell from 2787 to 2364 which is 423 teachers. This is a drop of 15%.
From 2008 to 2018 the total number of FTE teachers fell from 26067 to 23317 which is 2750 FTE. This is a drop of 10.5%
Therefore the drop in the number of teachers in E&M is 7% and 5% above the average fall in numbers due to decline in the number of schools and in the overall number of pupils over that decade.
Therefore there is a drop in numbers but not a collapse. The actual drop equates to less than 1 teacher per school, assuming an even spread which, in the absence of a more detailed breakdown, is a working assumption albeit a shaky one.
This can be filled by supply teachers until the next cohort of teachers arrive from Uni and there are two such times during the course of a year. Students studying at Stirling uni can do a Diploma in Education concurrently with their degree. This adds 6 months into the length of a degree but means they join the job market in January a full 6 months ahead of those doing a degree followed by a one year PGCE.
The newspapers were wrong to use raw data without context. The Rev was correct to point out the bigger picture although he may not have delved into it as deeply as some may have wished it still emphasised the point he was making.
.
Rev Stu.,
I am still furious with the SNP and how they mistreated my friend’s registered charity. Fiona Hyslop is a disgrace and should not be in office.
But whenever I get anywhere near voting Labour or considering a no vote at IndyRef2, your website keeps me sane.
Your forensic style is worthy of a Pulitzer prize.
This thread and the utter disgrace of The Scotsman newspaper’s lies, especially with your demolition of their dissembling bring me back to voting yes every day.
For what it is worth, I think there are a lot of ex-Labour voters like me that sometimes feel they are being let down by the SNP. But whatever grumble I and others may have, the SNP are 100 times better than SLAB and a million times better that the Tory rape-clause Ruth, disabled killing Tories ( http://www.calumslist.org ).
Rev, please keep up the good work. Thankyouu.
Dave McEwan Hill @4.09 pm.
So it’s true!
Gerrard is leaving Ibrox for WBA and taking Tavernier and Morales with him!
Shock! Horror! Shockaroonie!
Hold the front page, and pages 32 to 46.
Or maybe not.
I wouldn’t put it past some enterprising Dead Tree Scroller to build a ‘story’ out of our bit of fluffery.
A considerable proportion of the mugs who still actually buy the Hootsman or Herald Britland are Blue and Green knuckledraggers who would venture out into the street to check out the splattered moggies and pooches if you casually remarked that it was raining cats and dogs.
“Gerrard laughs off report of an approach by WBA to take over as head Coach as troll prank.”
See pages 36 to 38 inside.
This is how the Brit Nat Propaganda Machine works now.
Lies travel half way around the world before the Truth has got its boots on.
Murty to return as caretaker manager?
@yesindyref2
Definitely best to read as widely as possible.
I can’t recall the source but I read somewhere that if you got beyond the horrible content, the Sun was actually good at presenting complicated information in an easy to read way. The reading age was the same or lower than for the Record (8yrs old?) but the Record really dumbed down the core points.
The Telegraph and Financial Times style and content came in at about 17 or 17.5 yrs. I would think many of these ratings have changed since then with most dumbing down probably due to the Internet collating article from different sources.
I must try to find it.
Just catching up on the debate, missed most of it.
Kenneth Clarke (of the hush puppy shoes and some good jazz):
Talking a bit of sense there in the HoC debate.
Also condemning the way the EU referendum was run.
Smuggling in Ireland will now be a growth industry. 🙂
It appears that Westminster is heading for a complete breakdown.
Normally in such cases, patient recovery is slow and difficult and quite beyond the capacity required for normal working, including communication in both directions.
MPs are human, Westminster is a human institution ; we are not going to see a quick recovery and a return to normal working. This is a true crisis and a genuine breakdown in the making.
This situation has serious implications for Scotland, Northern Ireland and the EU – and later perhaps for Wales. But most of all for England itself.
As has been noted elsewhere – these are uncharted waters. No one knows what lies beneath what can currently be seen. Westminster has chosen to set a very dangerous course indeed under its somewhat hapless Captain.
There is no rescue service for Brexit.
Meanwhile, the people in the streets, shops and buses where I live, are largely oblivious to what is going on. Certainly, no one is talking about it. Perhaps they’re depending on the British Brainwashing Corporation to tell them what to think.
Legerwood @ 16:33,
A commendably informed and apposite response, as is your wont.
Far more convincing than a rapid descent into petty insults merely because someone dares to question some of the article specifics.
MPs to vote on Malthouse Compromise. What seems astonishing is that it appears to be a ‘compromise’ among Tory views. At this late stage, after the EU and UK have agreed a WA, pissing around with internal Tory negotiations is mad!
Malthouse appears to be … Leave on No Deal, but get a two months extension so the ‘no deal, can be orderly, Eh? Then behave for two years like the UK is still an EU member until trade deal is sorted. I think the chances of the EU changing direction and agreeing to this are zero.
If MPs pass this nonsense then we are all in the shite!
call me dave @ 16:46,
On the R4 lunchtime news, he was commending a customs union. Seems some of the less deranged Tories are finally getting round to the same place where the SG was a whole two years ago.
Not that people would ever likely find that out from the media.
Excellent stuff from Stephen Gethins NE Fife SNP.
We do have a good selection of SNP MPs elected from the last elections better all round than anything darn Sarf in my opinion!
Might have a few more soon but I’d rather they were ploughing a furrow in Holyrood in an independent Scotland ASAP.
If May has orchestrated this clusterfuck in order to encourage support for the withdrawal of A50, then she is a political genius. I don’t think her record in office supports such a conclusion.
The Brexit vote was instigated as a means of settling internal Tory division over EU membership. It exposed Britain’s constitution to populist direct rule and was thoroughly compromised with dark money from oversees. The Prime-minister has lost control of English politics, which is no longer recumbent but now rampant in it’s exceptionalism.
Rev, I will keep your statue in Independance Square Polished
And shining in all weathers.
Must be Westminster Dark Money going to the Yanks who own
The Hootsmon’s Hilarious Howlers Pamphlet.
It’s costing someone a lot of money to maintain
This seldom read suicide note.
CameronB Brodie @ 17:16,
Which makes it all the weirder that May keeps dogmatically insisting she is only respecting “the will of the people”.
An “advisory” will that’s set in concrete and can’t possibly be allowed to change, of course.
Referendums have always been a convenient part of the toolkit of the demagogue.
@SilverDarling
Yes, I think it was the Record and Sun, not DM – though the Mail was good for Money Mail in those days. Yes, Sun, because it had the horse racing, you could get the Racing Post (or was there one before that?) in the bookies 🙂
Some heat rather than light being generated BTL today regarding the article on English and Maths teacher numbers in Scottish secondary schools.
As jfngw says @ 1:59 pm, the key source of census data is Table 3.9 here: link to www2.gov.scot
As well as giving the number of teachers (‘full time equivalents’) with English or with Maths as their ‘main subject’, the table also gives the total FTEs for ‘all subjects’, in all cases since 2008.
It seems reasonable to suppose that the total FTEs for ‘all subjects’ will be influenced by the total number of pupils, especially if a key metric for policy makers is the Pupil/Teacher ratio and at a time of public funding constraint. It seems to me that Stu’s article makes a related point and provides relevant, important context.
However, his article doesn’t shine any light on the data relating specifically to teachers of English and Maths, the subject raised in The Scotsman.
Given that English and Maths are two core subjects taken by most (all?) pupils then one might reasonably expect the FTE number of teachers whose ‘main subject’ is either English or Maths to track the trend in the ‘all subjects’ FTE data. From a quick look I don’t think it does: the overall reduction in numbers since 2008 (a date chosen simply because it’s the oldest data given in the census’ table) appears to be greater for these two subjects than for the ‘all subjects’ category. (This could be checked out by plotting the data in Table 3.9 with a little more effort but I need to catch up on Brexit matters just now.)
So part of the changes in English and Maths teacher numbers may be linked to an overall change in pupil numbers but there seems to be another factor in play.
jfngwt @ 1:59 pm noted rightly that Table 3.9 also gives data for the number of teachers who teach English or Maths but do NOT identify these in the census as their ‘main subject’. It is my reading of Table 3.9 that unfortunately it only gives such data for 2018. (It may be that census publications in previous years will provide comparable data for pre-2018.)
The availability of teachers for English or Maths classes in any given school could be substantially influenced by having ‘dual’ subject specialists on staff. (Of course there is a wide rage of subject specialists that might be able to contribute to the teaching of say Maths as a subsidiary subject at some level – e.g. teachers of physics, chemistry, computing, business studies.) This is not factored in to The Scotsman article.
The final point to make is that the same census, specifically Table 8.2, provides data on Pupil/Teacher ratios for Secondary Schools since 2008 by Local Authority area. Again from a ‘quick look’, it appears that although this ratio remains pretty constant over time in some LAs it varies over time (and in different ways) in others. Intuitively, given that English and Maths teachers will account for large proportions of the teaching workforce, variations in how LAs have performed, especially the larger LAs, in maintaining their own Pupil/Teacher Ratios could have a substantial influence on English and Maths teacher numbers. And who employs teachers? Very largely the LAs.
(Given the data that have been published, I suspect that the raw, unpublished census data will include by date and by LA, teacher numbers for English and for Maths by both ‘main subject’ and subsidiary subject categories.)
Robert J. Sutherland
I think it fits her narrow personality and apparently racist attitudes. Though she started as a Remainer, we know she is apt to push political expedience past common decency. Or to put it more bluntly, she’s wholly untrustworthy.
I think she’s a Tory cultural nationalist and views Brexit as a means of securing English cultural integrity against brown people, whilst simultaneously consolidating austerity and expanding the scope for further de-regulation through the rejection of the “Precautionery Principle”.
Scotland, if you like neo-corporatist fascism implemented through the majoritarian abuse of constitutional power, vote to remain part of the UK!
Mmm, apparently the 13 “Scottish” Tories objected to the use by Mike Russell of the hashtag #RagmanRoll.
I’m guessing they wouldn’t have understood #JohnDeere …
@stewartb
The earlier reports do give the previous years totals for teachers in dual subjects (I typed my first response before I checked), if you have the hours to do the comparisons. But you are correct just distilling these raw numbers into a conclusion about the state of education will inform you of nothing useful.
I used ‘dual subjects’ but some teachers may teach multiple subjects but I think everyone will understand what I’m referring to.
Good work, 9/10.
Teacher numbers must be reduced, though, but only by one.
Whoever was responsible for teaching James Kelly MSP should be relieved of their duties immediately.
Speaking of which, has Kelly handed in his football hooliganism project yet
13 March, 2019 at 1:43 pm
Clootie says:
When will this rag close it’s doors?”
Minor correction, but Portacabins only have one door!
…and there are hundreds of thousands programmed to believe this stuff. We need England and the Union like the Black Death.
At Westminster the mp for Orkney and Shetland told May that a bird watching building on Fair isle had been destroyed by fire. He asked/ begged for government aid. She replied that a ‘’Scotland Office minister’’ would be informed. Plainly the Scottish Government is incompetent to handle this.
Carmichael, of course, has form. with his threats of O&S secession; London rule being so Cool.
OT re. Brexit. Sorry for the length of post but contemporary British nationalism scares the hell out of me. If this is the cavalier approach of Westminster to the rule-of-law and human rights, at the birth of a new state, “Brexitania”, then heaven help future generations as economic conditions tighten.
What will the constitutional status of Brexitanian Scots be, in tomorrows’s Tory wonderland?
link to academic.oup.com
I see the Tory Caroline Spelman tried to stop her amendment being voted on.
The one rejecting leaving the EU without a Withdrawal agreement at any point.
Sadly for her, her co-signatory to the amendment from labour, Yvette Cooper, said actually, it WILL be voted on.
Whit they like !!Pathetic.
Wouldn’t worry about it too much Stu. Nobody up here reads the pathetic shite that is The Hootsman.
Ayes 312
No 308
MPs reject no deal brexit in any circumstances !!
Is there a word bigger than an omnishambles ???
@Robert Louis says: 13 March, 2019 at 3:08 pm:
” … don’t know why he doesn’t just crawl right up Theresa May’s a**e.”
Whatever makes you imagine he has not already visited that warm, dark and smelly place before, Robert Louis? Perhaps that is the reason the PM always tends to have a sore throat when faced with her HOC bad sessions.
I think everyone is in a state of limbo at the moment.
Every time you think it can’t go on any further, up pops another deadline date.
On and on it rumbles.
@geeo says: 13 March, 2019 at 3:25 pm:
” … I bet your da’s bigger than my da’….!!
What a pathetic entity you are.”
Yes, geeo, but your spelling checker is better than his spelling checker.
According to Robert Peston the vote is non binding.
RP@7.25pm.
🙂
No Deal is STILL the default option for 29th March.
@geeo 7.17
Galactoshamblesmaggedon. 😎
None of these votes are binding according to Moggy and the law currently is that we are leaving on the 29th with No Deal.
Brian Powell @ 19:32,
Well of course. Voting it through is just a piece of additional wishful thinking. (Assuming the poison pill of the so-called “Malthouse Compromise” amendment is rejected.)
Unless the HoC explicitly cancels Brexit, default continues to be “no-deal”.
There goes the ‘Malthouse Compromise’
Now we have the farce of, basically, the Government motion has been replaced as the main motion, by the Spelman amendment, so they are now voting on trying to reverse the amendment via the main motion !!!
And it takes nearly an HOUR to get absolutely nowhere if the main motion is now defeated.
The government will now be voting AGAINST its own motion, because of the Spelman amendment winning !!
This would have taken 5 minutes at Holyrood ffs.
Apparently there has been resignations. Please make it be Mundane. 🙂
Whatever it means in reality, the vote to reject ‘no deal’ is a relief.
Stage by stage, the SNP’s compromises are being adopted.
And England, the North of Ireland and Wales may yet be saved from the worst ravages of exit from the EU.
Whatever happens, Scotland will be Independent 🙂
Will Mundell abstain? In normal times this would mean he would quit! Will he threaten to resign…again?
“We are operating in new political landscapes” ” normal times”.
Revoke or no deal!
No Deal is good for Scottish IndyRef2.
We want the biggest Brexit car crash imaginable.
The PM has just headed into the “No” lobby to vote against her OWN #Brexit motion.
You literally couldn’t make this up.
link to twitter.com
4 cabinet ministers have abstained – Gauke Rudd Mundell Clark – I’m told and are hoping to keep their job. “It was made clear ministers who voted against will be sacked”
link to twitter.com
I live in a part of Scotland to where many folk from Northern Ireland have moved since the Troubles began in 1969. Most are of a unionist persuasion.
Among them are many decent, hard working people. Others are sour, vicious bigots and proud members of the Sammy Wilson fan club.
Almost without exception their zealotry in opposing Scottish independence knows no bounds. And that ingrained pro-union stance has bridged the generations.
Any why is this relevant? The DUP is currently pursuing a no surrender Brexit policy which is alienating moderate Protestants in droves and, in a supreme irony, smashing dowm barriers on the road to a United Ireland.
Should that happy event occur there is a downside for Scotland – the likely arrival of hordes of Unionists diehards on Scottish soil.
And how would these migrants vote in IndyRef2? We all know the answer to that.
That’s why Scotland has to get to our political promised land first – before the British-imposed border in Ireland is removed by a majority reunification vote which may be much closer than we think.
Geeo @ 7.17pm.
Is there a word bigger than an omnishambles ???
– How about “Supercalifragilisticexpialidocioushambles”?
Chaos in HoC. UKGov has U-turned and 3-line whipped Tories, but even ministers are apparently now inclined to rebel.
Word is Sarah Newton has resigned as a minister in the lobbies
link to twitter.com
UKGov defeated. Disaster for Dis-May, but she robotically persists.
Whipoed the vote and lost by another 39 votes!!
Treeza, still having no deal….!!
She is demented.
Lol, May has just said this was a waste of time.
@welsh sion.
Even that is not big enough now !!
Well, geeo. I tried. (I come from the country of Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch, remember!)
Wish I’d have stockpiled the popcorn, though! *Sigh*
The Bastards at the BBC have done it again – as soon as Ian Blackford stands up to speak they cut to Brillo.
O/t
BBC fucking bastards again cut off Ian Blackford on a point of order
Apparently Fluffy abstained. Of course we know he’s not the resigning type…
FGS! Where’s Lewis Carrol when you need him.
Blackford there letting rip, almost declaring independence. 🙂
H Benn: Indicitive propositions suggested.
Parliament tv live link:
link to parliamentlive.tv
OT again re. Brexit. Are folk not amazed how English parlimentarians appear unconcerned that the British constitution has just be hijacked? I’m not as I understand the cult of British nationalism.
link to verfassungsblog.de
CNN live HoC coverage gives Ian Blackford’s speech in full, and that of Vince Cable, then cuts back to the commentators when Rees-Moggy starts.
Heh, heh.
Their earlier piece from Edinburgh even manages to find a couple of young women who volunteer that they want indyref2. You know, the people that the BBC mysteriously never seems to find, somehow.
They also report that several ministers appear to have resigned.
Absolute scenes as May’s government devoid of humility refuses to allow the motion to become legislation. Same deal to be put before the house tomorrow – jeez.
Nana 7.48
WTF!
Does that mean May voted against something her ministers were told they risked their jobs if they voted against?
Are we really that far down the hole with Alice now?
@ call me dave says at 4:46 pm ….. ”Smuggling in Ireland will now be a growth industry ?”
No doubt Call me dave. How on earth will they manage to regulate the most extensive cross-border road network in Europe with 208 cross-border roads? That’s twice as many as those crossing the EU’s entire eastern external frontier. But don’t worry the master race based in London will nail it.
People trafficking will rise and of course the whole set up leaves us wide open to terrorists (not home grown) waltzing right in.
link to independent.co.uk
…………….
Add to that:
‘The UK will be locked out of Europe’s policing and security databases after Brexit, EU’s chief negotiator says.’
……”Britain will be locked out of EU policing and security databases after Brexit, the bloc’s chief negotiator has confirmed. Michel Barnier said the UK would also lose access to the European arrest warrant and that UK representatives would no longer have a role in managing agencies such as Europol and Eurojust.”…
link to independent.co.uk
…………………………………….
‘CROSS BORDER ORGANISED CRIME THREAT ASSESSMENT 2018.’
link to justice-ni.gov.uk
Speaker Bercow ‘boiler’working for his money tonight. 🙂
Ghillie Not what polls show, without hard Brexit no poll has anything other than a clear lead for No to independence in Scotland, the Commons is voting in line with what Scots want tonight by making clear it will never accept No Deal, so why should Scots want to leave the Union? Indeed we may even stay in the single market and Customs Union if May’s Deal keeps getting rejected or even jave no Brexit at all.
Government business tomorrow is a motion on extention of article 50 dependent on the House voting for her deal. Lots of real anger about making extending article 50 conditional.
If your hard enough call a motion of no confidence, says Peter Bone MP (Tory) 🙂
As Dom said no deal is good for indyref2, the Commons has voted to permanently reject No Deal tonight
CNN guest reckons that Dis-May will try a third time next week and if she wins, she will ask the EU for a short “technical” extension.
If she loses, it will be a long extension, a complete “clean slate”, including UK participation in the upcoming EU elections.
Oh, and she is toast.
@ Nana says at 7:48 pm … ”4 cabinet ministers have abstained – Gauke Rudd Mundell Clark – I’m told and are hoping to keep their job. “It was made clear ministers who voted against will be sacked”
link to twitter.com
That wee lying runt Mundell was interviewed on Scotland Tonight … just last night …. and went on about how bad a No Deal Brexit would be for the UK and (after thought) Scotland. When asked how he would be voting today he stated categorically that he would be voting against it. Forget about him resigning, resigning, resigning. He should be sacked. Get him out!
link to thenational.scot
Robert J Sutherland
I’m following the ongoing discussion in the H o C just now after this evening’s votes and discussing the business for tomorrow.
MP’s gradually realising that tomorrow’s motion mentions March 20th as the deadline of MP’s to agree a deal with the EU at which point the PM will ask for an extension.Mp\’s indignant that they feel they are being ignored.
So, yes, it looks like may is going to try and get her vote through a third time – a third meaningful vote – by March 20th, SNP again pushing for revocation of Article 50.
Total frustration on the floor.
HYFUD = Ragman Rolls signatory. Aiding and abetting Better Together.
Would Mundell be making way for R Davidson to be S of State in Scotland, I wonder?
HYFUD
the H o C has voted against NO deal at any time however, as it is a statutary law, an advisory motion from the house apparently cannot alter a statutory law unfortunately Rees -Mogg has got this right.
It needs the UK Government to change the statutary law. So it looks like we have to wait now till the 20th March.
I see fuddy is back blithering.
Try this fuddy.
If article 50 is revoked, and ukexit cancelled, what is to stop the SNP Scotsgov putting a motion to Holyrood seeking permission to renegotiate the treaty of union with WM ?
Why ?
Well, they could reasonably argue that the behaviour of WM and the contempt shown for Scotland over the near 3 years since the ukexit vote, cannot be allowed to happen again, and as such, WM agrees to new terms suitable to Scottish needs, or Holyrood will vote on a motion to dissolve the treaty of union.
How bout that then, fuddy ?
Drew Hendry MP did a great job when interviewed on CNN a few minutes ago.
HYUFD
No deal would be a disaster for both Scotland and England. Now, fuck off you tit.
Meg
No Deal means Nicola can FINALLY fire that IndyRef2 starting gun.
A win win for us.
HYUFD
Unless it’s your intention to confuse the issue, of course.
@meg merrilees.
Yeah, watching it as well, plenty SNP MP’s stayed behind to put the boot in.
Most of the unionists long since scuttled off to quaff champers it seems.
Easy to see why the ‘leader’ of the house is called Andrea Loathsome.
All those saying what are the SNP doing, emm…turn yer telly to parliament tv, a full 40 minutes since treeza fecked off, the SNP are still there holding the tories to account.
No Deal is ideal.
Oh dear, Dom, you have not been paying attention tonight, have you ?
Yesterday I commented that I expected May to use the rejection of a no deal vote to reintroduce her deal. I thought I was being too cynical but it looks like that’s what she is going to do.
Elsewhere I believe Mundell was on his way to vote against no deal but was suddenly caught short by an attack of the skitters, great shame but at least he won’t have to resign … again!
Geeo The SNP can whinge as much as they want, if hard Brexit is avoided the polling is clear, Scots will not vote for independence and the Commons has made quite clear tonight it will vote for extension and EUref2 or even revoke Brexit over No Deal and a Government would not survive unless that was delivered
geeo @ 20:43,
That’s cute. Having given the BritNats 4+ wasted years of full opportunity to do the right thing themselves by their indyref promises, now we are to prod them with stick-and-carrot in a re-Union offer or we walk.
Somehow I can’t see them even taking that last-of-all-last-chances opportunity. So much so that it isn’t even worth the effort, IMO.
Better to dump the diversions and cut to the chase now.
Correct my last post, it was this morning not yesterday. It’s hard to keep track now, every day another vote, another government defeat. They are all melding into one.
Meg Merrilees See my last 2 lines above
Geeo
Why have I not been paying attention,, please enlighten me
Worth reading.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
No Deal is ideal (for IndyRef2)
I see that in the wake of today’s catastroshambles in the HoC, Loball is back in a panic, desperately trying to maintain that the deck really isn’t sloping.
Even though we can all feel it.
(Gaslighting does have its limits.)
The little Engs will toe Mays line..and vote for her deal .
After that, it’ll be up to how fast Scots can grow a spine !!
Anybody else on here find it strange that the spineless wonder Mundell abstained? His beloved boss votes against a No Deal Brexit and he abstains?! Something’s not quite right there.
@HYUFD
Such confidence, such fear. Now is your chance to spoke the SNP then, why are you so afraid to take it?
dom
That’s a truly short-sited and idiotic comment. How do you think a declining right-wing England will help Scotland? And don’t embarrass yourself by suggesting it brings independence closer.
All the SNP see doing is throwing hand grenades right into the middle of the Westminster Brexit debacle.
The SNP plan is to disrupt and cause as much chaos as possible. A plan that is paying dividends.
Brilliant strategy most likely thought up by our illustrious leader Nicola.
Cameron b
you are allowed your opinion, and I must surely be allowed my opinion
Democracy, remember?
Anybody else got this Brexit feeling.
link to youtube.com
“All those saying what are the SNP doing” you ask @geeo says at 8:50 pm
Simple
They are artfully getting their distain for Westminster and TMays Tory Governments handling of Brexit and the democratic deficit shown to The Sovereign People of Scotlands 62% vote to remain EU Citizens fully signed up to the benefits of The 4 Freedoms recorded in Hansard as a matter of public and historical record.
dom
Fair comment but I think you’re still a tit if you think “no deal” is in any way desirable from a Scottish perspective.
Oh, we have a Coco-substitute now, I see…
@ Macart says at 9:03 pm … ”Worth reading.” link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Thanks for that Macart. Well worth a read right enough.
…”Meanwhile there are reports that certain Brexiteers in Leave.EU and Ukip are lobbying right wing governments in Italy, Poland, and Hungary in an effort to get them to use their veto against any extension of Article 50. According to reports a group of Conservatives went to Poland last week in order to lobby the far right Polish government against any extension. So much for “We want the British parliament to be sovereign.” Now we have Nigel Farage and the Brexists begging the EU for help to leave the EU. There’s a word for conspiring with foreign governments in order to damage the interests of your own country. It’s not a pretty word.”…
…………………..
@ dom says at 9:12 pm … ”Cameron b – you are allowed your opinion, and I must surely be allowed my opinion. Democracy, remember?”
Spot on Dom.
If the WM English majority were to manage to agree a ‘best deal’ to put to the EU and that deal were rejected by the EU 27 what then? No Brexit? A danger signal that referendum results effectively mean zilch? Are we on a vicious loop? In a HUIS CLOS situation where hell is WM trying to find a nonexistent exit and Scotland is trapped in a state run by hellish, bickering other people?
A GE then? In England that might mean a night of the long knives for the ‘main parties’ as the electorate gleefully collects scalps. So not at all likely.
However, for Scotland it could well be the solution to our recurring national ‘put down’. Another reason it will never happen.
An SNP ‘stuff you’ walk out?
dom@9.02pm
Emm….The House of Commons making it very clear a no deal will not be tolerated ?
While it may be a non binding vote, the speaker made it clear during points of order that there ARE ways to ensure that the view of the house (no deal) can prevail.
The speaker cannot spell those ways out, but MP’s will know.
Did you stop watching before that bit ?
Straight from trolling Scotland’s FM the FUD decides to pay us a visit, things are obviously hotting up now when Theresa May just outvoted Theresa May
There isn’t enough internet to describe these people anymore
@HYUFD says: 13 March, 2019 at 8:59 pm:
” … The SNP can whinge as much as they want,”
So, HYUFD, what parts of, “The United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of Kingdoms”, and, “The people of Scotland are legally Sovereign”, and, “All International Treaties can be ended by either party if the treaty’s conditions are substantially changed.” is it you fail to understand?
Once Unionists had a clear endorsement for the Union in 2014’s Scottish Independence referendum, no need for another one, especially if a hard Brexit is avoided
@Robert J Sutherland 9.00pm
Yeah ….okay then champ.
Seems you did not understand my post you referenced then.
In that scenario, WM could NEVER agree, nor be seen to agree, the terms Scotland would present to them.
You also seemed to ignore the context in which i put that SCENARIO.
But hey, we know your motives from old.
Petra
Some on here think it is their opinion and only their opinion that counts, all other opinions which differ from theirs is open to abuse and threats to that poster.
Lighten up guys, take on board all opinions and then come back with a civilised reply.
Robert Peffers Scots have no interest in independence as the polling in Scotland shows if hard Brexit is avoided
Robert Peffers@ 9.29pm.
So, HYUFD, what parts of, “The United Kingdom is legally a bipartite union of Kingdoms”, and, “The people of Scotland are legally Sovereign”, and, “All International Treaties can be ended by either party if the treaty’s conditions are substantially changed.” is it you fail to understand?
……..
Em…ALL of it, i would imagine..!
Fuddy aint the brightest.
Petra@9.07
Mundell only thinks of Mundell+ Fluff Junior.
Like the rest of his ilk, he has no morals when it comes to looking after the citizens who put him in his job.( The prize of the Ermine cloak and a job for like for the wean comes before anything else.)
This whole sorry mess was caused by the Tories fearing the rise of the ultra right wing supporters of their party.UKIP. (There are other factions involved which will come to light in the future.)hedge funds, etc.
History will show future generations, what “The Mother of All Parliaments” was really like, contempt doesn’t even come close, piss up in brewery the same.
And the Tories would still win a GE if called tomorrow???.
You could not make it up.
Sorry to see The Britnat troll HYFUD is back. – nothing but a boring pain.
As I pointed out previously May did not promise to implement the legal change to remove no deal if HofCommons voted for it and she seems to be sticking to that. May demonstrating the usual characteristics of Britnats – lie, deceit, break promises, untrustworthy etc etc. It’s amazing some MPs still expect her to be straight and honest with them.
My long term forecast of no deal united Ireland and independent Scotland seems to be still going strong.
@HYFUD
Can you not read? Check out the BIG TABLE Q15 and Q16:
link to wingsoverscotland.com
And here’s one for Mundell, your boss:
There was an Old Man with a beard,
Who said, ‘It is just as I feared!
Two Owls and a Hen,
Four Larks and a Wren,
Have all built their nests in my beard!’
Geeo
No Deal is the.legal default option.
No time for bringing into law any other deal.
Do try to keep up.
Oh dear, dom, who to believe, you or the speaker of the house when it comes to parliamentaty procedures….its a toughie !!
Apparently, the 4 abstaining Ministers are NOT being sacked.
So open revolt by ministers is tolerated in treeza’s Government.
Who knew…
geeo @ 21:32:
You really can be a hyper-aggressive obnoxious little twerp. Care to elaborate rather than just slyly insinuate…?
@HYUFD
Strange your waters tell you no, mine say Yes will poll between 60% & 70% when the referendum is called.
P.S. Polling is irrelevant, it is the mandate that counts, SNP has real mandate at Holyrood and Westminster for Scotland, they have had the referendum endorsed at Holyrood by a clear majority. We are just waiting patiently (some impatiently) for the event.
But you’re not really here for that are you, it’s more of a trolling exercise. Probably sitting guffawing into your G & T while typing.
He may as well come on here and tell us that the ‘Scots can whinge as much as we want’ as it is after all the Scots who vote for the SNP…does he not see how fucking insulting he really is?
Or does he not see that we see how insulting he really is by coming out wi this utter tosh btl here?
Do fuck off Simon.
At RJS
You think that is “hyper aggressive” ???
Deary me!!
Plenty know what you are. Not exactly 100% pro indy, and you often spread unionist propaganda on here.
Accidently i’m sure…
No Deal Brexit is the wake up call many Scots need.
They need a shock to their system, to let them see what being part of the UK really means.
They need to be hurting to finally bring them round to thinking that Independence is the only logical way out of this disaster.
Has anyone got a link to Ian Blackfords speech that was cut by the British State Broadcaster? Parliament TV isn’t now playing it. 🙁
dom
Sorry for the insult, but as a very capable disabled individual who understands a bit about ethical governance and stuff, Brexit scares the shit out of me. A “no deal” scenario that Scotland is unable to escape from, is something I don’t dare to even imagine. Scotland is geographical situated next to England, so can’t escape a “no deal” scenario, even through independence.
Brexit fucks Britain but it will hurt Scotland even if we choose independence. The rational course of action is to try an minimise this impact. The SNP have satisfied this ethical requirement, IMHO. Time to move on.
#DissolveTheUnion
link to onlinelibrary.wiley.com
Brexit and the Moral Vision of Nationhood
link to mereorthodoxy.com
The Relationship between the Brexit Vote and Individual Predictors of Prejudice: Collective Narcissism, Right Wing Authoritarianism, Social Dominance Orientation
link to frontiersin.org
A historic day in the HoC. Michael Gove is a despicable piece of work. I expect he will be the next Tory leader and we can thankfully depart the Union.
Ian Blackford repeated that Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against our will. I expect that’s why the BBC cut him off because they know he will get the message out there.
Has May resigned yet? I can scarcely bear to look at what is going on any longer. And I don’t eat popcorn or choccy raisins.
OK, a quick effort
There was an old woman from Maidenhead
A divided incompetent party led
To leave the EU
They all did a poo
Which amused that old woman from Maidenhead
The results of 2014 and 2016 should be permanently fixed in stone?
In a democracy, people can change their minds. Any political system which sets out to prevent people changing their minds is not a democracy!
British/English nationalism have now become totally incompatible with democracy.
There was an old man from Chippenham
Whose brain was as fuddled as eggs and spam
When they asked for his vote
He gave them a pound note
That pythonesque man from Chippenham
geeo 21:45,
Maybe you could attend the next Wingers get-together and try saying that again to me in person, you slimy argumentative little shit.
@dom says: 13 March, 2019 at 9:12 pm:
” … Democracy, remember?”
What democracy might that be, dom?
There technically cannot be democracy in the United Kingdom.
he terms, democracy and kingdom are an oxymoron. You see it is like this in kingdoms, (with only one exception0, the king or Queen is legally sovereign and that means the people are the sovereign’s subjects. It isn’t called The United Kingdom because it is a democracy.
Now about that one exception – it is the Kingdom of Scotland where , in 1320, the law changed and the monarch became only king of Scots – not king of Scotland. He was declared to be the chosen leader of the people and the people had the right to drive him out if he failed in his duty to protect the people’s sovereignty. That instantly turned a sovereign monarchy into a real democracy.
This is not so in the Kingdom of England and Westminster rule by the rule of law of England and English law has a legally sovereign monarch. Westminster is not a democratic government.
There was an old crawler called Gove
Who put both his feet in the stove
When they said it was out
He went off with a pout
That weak-willed and weird old cove
I’ll stop now!
Baldeagle58 @ 21:46,
As I mentioned upthread, CNN covered his speech live in its entirety, but alas I don’t know what may be on their website (yet).
Why would the EU offer a long extension. They know Scotland may well vote for Indy and after all Scotland is the part of the Union which has unparalleled resources. They would be allowed to join rather quickly.
What actually does the rest of the UK offer the EU?
Answers please.
Robert J. Sutherland says:
13 March, 2019 at 9:59 pm
geeo 21:45,
lmao
Soz made me chuckle in this drab dreary events of today.
Anyhow I’ve just we back to default settings, reset my mobile, home computer and house clock back to default 13-9-14
The Indy ref is in 5 days Monday!!!!!! -don’t forget the last 5 years was a dream.!
You can thank me later for adding near 5 years to your life
Concerned about a diagnosis of memory loss, a possible dementing illness, personality disorder, delusional illness? The presentation of all of the above is typically the behaviour of the Mother of all Parliaments this evening . ‘Mother’ would probably score zero in her MMSE – with day-to-day memory loss and forgetfulness, she can’t concentrate, plan or organise, struggles to find the right word, lacks perception and orientation in time and place . We must be kind and empathetic towards Mother- she needs to be where her care needs are most appropriately met- as far away from Scotland as possible.
Scotland – a nation in waiting, a country that is grown up and responsible an oasis of sanity, calm dignity and talking sense compared to the incoherent ramblings of ‘Mother’.
galamcennalath
That’s what I suggest when at uni, perhaps that’s what got my ticket marked? 🙂
9:34pm
Fluffy on the BBC:
Speaking to the BBC, the Scottish Secretary David Mundell says: “The Cabinet should now act on the will of the House – that is to deliver our exit from the EU with a deal.”
“The prime minster has my full support in that,” he adds.
When asked if he should be sacked for not voting with the government, Mr Mundell said: “If you vote against the government, as some ministers did, you resign and accept responsibility for doing that.
“I did not vote against the government.”
________
Yep. He hasn’t resigned (yet). Quoi de neuf, pussycat ?
Those votes tonight will, imo, have the Maybot laughing all the way to the rechip factory. She won a watch tonight with those HoC votes, no mistake.
She runs down the clock a couple of more weeks and then says to parliament, “Okay – so this house voted not to leave without a deal? Well there’s a deal on the table – MY deal. Take it or leave it.”
Who framed that motion? It should also have explicitly excluded the May ‘deal’ currently on offer. (Yes, I know HoC rejected it but that doesn’t stop the Maybot somehow tweaking it to present it again for another vote which is what she’s planning to do on 26th March).
Oh she’s no’ as daft as we think with her political shenanigans.
That’s where we’re headed. Her deal or we crash out. And when push comes to shove, how will HoC vote?
BBC giving the impression that domestic produced products will be cheaper with no deal. Not sure what their evidence is for this, as competition from abroad will cost more. I would suspect local producers to raise prices to just below new import costs to recoup any export loses.
Anybody that makes things is trying to get the best price and make more profit. I don’t think they will see themselves as some social service.
Blackford’s speech for anyone who missed it
link to twitter.com
@HYUFD says:13 March, 2019 at 9:31 pm:
” … Once Unionists had a clear endorsement for the Union in 2014’s Scottish Independence referendum, no need for another one, especially if a hard Brexit is avoided.”
Balderdash! Political views change all the time and that includes referendums. That is why there are general elections. They give the electorate regular chances to change their minds and throw out the last government they chose and vote in another one.
There is, of course, another point. The people of Scotland are legally sovereign. BTW: Your Tory Government acknowledged that as legal fact by not opposing the Scottish Claim of Right in the UK supreme Court. So, when a majority of the Scottish Electorate say, “Enough”! the United Kingdom ends.
Now here is a stone cold fact for you – Westminster is legally the parliament of the United Kingdom. There is no legally elected parliament of the Kingdom of England. Thus, when Scotland ends the union the United Kingdom parliament instantly ends and there is no one elected to rule England. No one in the entire World needs to pay the slightest heed to the Kingdom of England. It will become a headless corps overnight.
jfngw @ 10.20
They might be spinning the “Tariff” announcement that’s been slipped out today…
Which if what they are reporting is correct means different trading arrangements for N.Ireland,which is Westminister’s way of protecting the Good Friday Agreement an international TREATY….. Which is all very fine….
BUT they forget,arranging for one part of the Union to have a trading advantage over Scotland may break that other TREATY that Westminster is signed up to….oops!
Robert oeffer
When I said democracy, I was reminding another poster of my right to have an opinion,,,I wasn’t talking about Westminster democracy.
I’m afraid you are miles off what I was actually talking about.
dom
So do you still think “no deal” is good for Scotland’s best interests?
Out SNP leafletting in Stirling tonight about what Brexit really means. Got thumbs up through the window from some of the recipients.
Crazy scenario at WM. Nicola has said she may even set out her intention to use the Indy ref mandate within the next few days….
T May supposedly bringing back her deal for a third time next week.
Fluffy voting against the Government then flatly stating that he hasn’t so he won’t be resigning – will T May boot him out?
What is going through (t)Ruthless’ head just now?
Have to admit it has been a pleasant experience to listen to FMQ’s without her.
What a farce. A government who try to vote down their own motion in the HOC and fail. Led by an inveterate liar who pretends that her repeated humiliations have changed nothing.
Over the last few years TM has indulged in an escalating abuse of power involving bribery (DUP bung, honours system etc.) and the use of the carrot and stick to whip her own MPs into line to protect her position and further her goals. Her incompetence, which first became apparent during her term as Home Secretary, is legendary as is her deference to the monied elite who pull her strings. There is a glaring conflict of interest between her role as PM and her husband’s business interests which should have precluded her from high office. As was once said about another prominent tory there is something of the night about her. Witness her demeanour on the government benches when Corbyn, Blackford or other opponents are speaking. She exudes malevolence as she gives them the evil eye and, before she could even possibly consider what is being said, her head begins its robotic side to side movement entirely reminiscent of the nodding dogs which festooned the rear windows of cars a few years ago.
The days of TM as PM are numbered but the damage she has done will endure for many decades. Her government bears responsibility for the impoverishment and misery of a huge number of our fellow citizens and the untimely deaths of many more. Regrettably she will never face a court of law in this life but, as a vicar’s daughter, she should know enough to fear judgement in the next.
Proud Cybernat @ 22:13,
Aye, that’s clearly the Maybot strategy. Wear everyone down by endlessly repeating her friendless vote in the hope that MPs give in just to stop their brains melting. Problem is, the ardent Brexists know that by stalling every vote, UK plunges out with no-deal. Which is exactly what they want.
By majority voting back when to approve the triggering of Art.50, Labour shilly-shallying and all, the HoC put a metaphorical gun in the hand of the mad Leavers. And ultimately the only way to disarm them is a majority vote for a PV or a majority vote to withdraw the request to leave.
If there isn’t a majority for either, which is all too possible, the lunatics are steering and the road has finally run out.
Though judging by the increasingly blunt statements from Ian Blackford et al, the SNP have an alternative plan and also the necessary intent to use it.
There is a house in Westminster
They call the flailing pun
And its been the ruins of many a country
And god I know we’re one
@Liz G
Sorry I was really referring to items with tariffs, not clear in my post. The zero rate offer will in fact hurt local producers if they are currently in competition.
@HYUFD says: 13 March, 2019 at 9:33 pm:
… Robert Peffers Scots have no interest in independence as the polling in Scotland shows if hard Brexit is avoided.”
What polling would that be, HYUFD? The Scottish Government have a mandate and not from an opinion poll either. Not only that but the Scottish Parliament confirmed it with a cross-party vote.
However, neither of these carries more weight that the legal facts that the Scottish Claim of Right was affirmed by the United Kingdom, not the Kingdom of England, government when they acknowledged the Scottish Claim of Right by not contesting it.
Do you actually know what the Scottish Claim of Right is, HYFUD? Furthermore, do you understand that Scottish Law is independent from English Law and there is no such law as United Kingdom Law?
I’ll spell it out for you. The Scottish Government has a clear mandate from the legally sovereign people of Scotland and Westminster has consistently broken the terms of the bipartite Treaty of Union.
Now within the past week one of Theresa May’s Cabinet declared in the House of Commons, (thus it is recorded in Hansard), that in an international treaty either party can end the treaty if there is a substantial change in the terms of the treaty. The Treaty of Union that begat the United Kingdom is an International Treaty.
Now the idiot was talking about the EU treaty between the EU and the UK and he was so bloody stupid as not to realise what he was saying. Now if that information doesn’t frighten a Unionist like yourself then you are at least as stupid.
Got it now? The EU/UK Treaty is no less an international Treaty than the Treaty of Union and if it is good enough for the UK it is good enough for the Kingdom of Scotland.
Now here is another wee fact for you to consider – The Scottish MPs at Westminster, The Scottish Government First Minister and many MSPs at Holyrood and MEPs at Brussels have said in recent weeks, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against the will of the People of Scotland”. Not if, not maybe not with anyone else’s permission. They categorically state, “WILL NOT BE DRAGED OUT”, and we do not need anyone from a foreign kingdom’s permission to do so. As admitted by a UK cabinet minister within the past few days.
Are you worried now, HYFUD? What you going to do about it – send in the(cough!), British Army?
As Robert Burns said, “It’s coming yet fir aa that”.
A selection of choice comments from the G.
* “I honestly can’t comprehend how we’ve ended up with such a diabolical shambles as this government and the opposition.”
* “It’s been more than 2 years of total timewasting and self inflicted harm for absolutely no benefit and there seems to be no end to the insanity.”
* “What’s deeply saddening is that the split between remain and leave is still remarkably close despite all the evidence that leaving is an utterly insane choice.”
* ” “It … sends a message … to the whole world,” croaked Theresa May to the Commons on Tuesday night, “about the sort of country … the United Kingdom will be … in the years and decades ahead.”
Heard loud and clear around the world :
A backward looking, fearful of the world country led by an abject set of Parliamentarians .
A country that will self immolate rather than be pragmatic , a country wth a Constitution that prevents a rudderless and incompetent cling onto power.
It sends the message loud and clear , we are UTTERLY DELUDED , we will look inwards , we hate foreigners and expect the World to fall to our feet with trade deals that are one sided and only in our favour.
We ARE a laughing stock. Worldwide.”
* ” The situation is, for want of a better expression – f***ing embarrassing.”
* ” Another sharp, erudite, witty and hilarious essay from Marina Hyde. While we Danes watch British politicians in disbelief and must lay ear to horrible animosities against Britain’s neighbors, we cling to those here at the Guardian, who still represent the Britain we loved so much until a can of worms was opened.”
* ” When I moved from Italy to the UK some 12 yrs ago, I was so glad to leave a politically messed up country for a serious one. Now I am incredulous every day.”
* ” Why are all the media, including Emily Maitlis last night on Newsnight, so amazed at how this faecal tornado is playing out. It’s amazing to me that May is being presented as some sort of tragic victim heroine in all this at the mercy of a parliament of toddlers. This is the situation she deliberately engineered. She came back with basically the same deal as last time, and ‘Shock!, Horror!’ it was rejected again”
* “However bad you might think being governed by Brussels would be, being governed by the Tories is infinitely worse!”
* “However dreadful they are (this Tory Govt) (and they truly are), I’ll always take being governed by people who were voted for over people who weren’t.
Reply
* ” Actually, the British government is appointed by the Queen. You never voted for Theresa May as prime minister, even if you happen to live in her constituency. The government gets its democratic legitimacy through the British parliament’s vote of confidence, just as the EU commission has the confidence of the European parliament. The EU is actually more democratic than Britain, having PR elections. In Britain, an awful lot of votes (such as those for the Greens) are disregarded because of First past the Post.”
Well said Robert, and looking less likely to be via a referendum to me by the minute.
Dissolving the Treaty of Union to protect the interests of Scotland looks like the probable route, assuming treeza tries to over reach herself, with a refusal to sanction a S.30.
Do people really think the Scotsgov will just say “aw shucks…dammit, we give up” because treeza said no to a S.30 ?
Nicola has to ask, and in fact, her (treeza) saying, “yes, ok, no problem, her ye go have a S.30 referendum”, arguably makes our cause more difficult.
Refusal means Nicola and Scotsgov can quote back all and every occassion that we have bent over backwards to solve the constitutional issue, right up until we had no more options.
They will only have themselves to blame.
This final scenario has not happened by accident, where we are and look like going, is the result of years of preparation, mostly while our politicians have helped distract them at WM, shit stirring over ukexit.
People keep asking “what are the SNP doing”?
That question will be answered very soon, and i believe it will be a humdinger.
The Nine debate tonight, right now.
Jeanne Freeman very strong, Geordie bloke in audience pro independence, Aamer Anwar first class, Neil Findlay a sad sideshow, Tory Jamie Green getting pelters, Alex-Cole Hamilton a BritNat joke.
Any applause going is pro-Scotland, second question of the evening is on how can Scottish economy prosper without freedom of movement.
“The only way to ensure the Scottish economy can prosperwith freedom of movement is by Scotland getting out of the European Union,” says an audience member to loud applause.
At last – a true reflection of what Scotland thinks! Now talking is a lassie from Poland whe feels Scottish and wants to stay here. Why the feck is this stuff NEVER aired mainstream and at peak time? Oh wait..
Re yesindyref2 @ 9.36
Couldn’t resist:
A scrawny old biddy called May
Insisted on having her way
She went to and fro
Like a demented yoyo
But got her comeuppance today
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 13 March, 2019 at 9:59 pm:
” … Maybe you could attend the next Wingers get-together and try saying that again to me in person, you slimy argumentative little shit.”
Oh! Dear! that, Robert is a direct threat of physical violence. BTW: There is a very old truth – it goes like this, “it takes at least two to make an argument”. In my book you have, not the first time today, stepped over the line of decency.
Seems you like to dish it out but cannot stand it being dished back. So there you go – both verbal abuse and threats of violence.
JFNGW On current polls there may well be a Unionist majority in the next Holyrood elections and no chance of indyref2 after that point if that is the result and only 2 years to go until those elections
RJS @9.59
You said this:
“Maybe you could attend the next Wingers get-together and try saying that again to me in person, you slimy argumentative little shit”
……..
Not long after saying this:
“You really can be a hyper-aggressive obnoxious little twerp. Care to elaborate rather than just slyly insinuate…”?
………..
Triggered by me saying this:
“But hey, we know your motives from old”.
………..
Clearly irony ain’t your strong point.
Pray tell what scenario do you imagine would happen if i told you what you think i said, to your face ?
Now you are just confirming what you are.
Are you aware of this blog’s rules about threats of violence, implied or stated ?
Shall we ask the man in charge ?
Capella Gove is a Scot
@Bob Mack “What actually does the rest of the UK offer the EU?”
Farce.
It’s an industry potentially worth billions.
Bob Mack The largest financial centre in Europe, one of the top two European militaries alongside France, the best universities in Europe etc and of course Spain is concerned still about allowing an independent Scotland into the EU setting a precedent for allowing an independent Catalonia into the EU
@ Gary45% says at 9:35 pm …. ”Petra – Mundell only thinks of Mundell + Fluff Junior. Like the rest of his ilk, he has no morals when it comes to looking after the citizens who put him in his job. (The prize of the Ermine cloak and a job for like for the wean comes before anything else.)”….
Do you know what Gary, I doubt he’ll ever don an ermine cloak because I reckon that T May, the Tories, Queenie and the parasites that frequent the House of Lords old folks home can’t stick him either. Along with probably 99% of the population of Scotland.
………………….
Mundell was interviewed on Scotland Tonight. Oh right he’s not resigning. Surprise, surprise. He doesn’t support a No Deal Brexit. He just chose not to vote against it??? FGS get me out of here. I actually got the impression, seriously, that he’s totally confused with it all now, lol. Everyone (other than one Tory) being questioned on ST tonight said that Big T should sack him, however she’s not in a position to sack anyone now. What a bl**dy mess.
Peston also saying that normally politicians like Mundell, breaching such a convention, would have resigned before they had been sacked.
Anyway forget about them. Mundell has stated often that a No Deal Brexit would be catastrophic for Scotland and yet he put our country, US, in the position of being subjected to just that. And yeah I know it can happen still, but it’s the principle that counts and he should just p*ss right off now. He’s no friend of any Scot no matter their political colours.
……………………………………
Treeza’s latest threat is that if they don’t vote for her deal … AGAIN … next week they are facing a very long extension period.
……………….
Time for a bit of a laugh. Looks as though we’re all in dire need of it.
Janey Godley …. ‘Theresa Wants My Netflix Sign In.’
link to youtube.com
Heart of Galloway
Firstly , “The only way…” comment doesn’t make logical sense. Are you sure that was the way they said what they said?
Secondly, it’s a bit of a stretch to suggest an irrational comment reflects what the people of Scotland want.
I’m not doubting your sincerity, just wondering if you’ve had a couple? 😉
@Elmac
🙂
You gotta laugh.
– here is a link, a nice long read about the power of money, and the contempt of the super rich and the lack of protection offered via democracy or legal systems; argentina is not a banana republic, which makes it all worse
link to alethonews.com
makes me glad Scotland has so much rain, also makes me glad for the midge as it keeps away the wrong types – but even so, 400 people own all we have, and they are not of us. We have already been “patagonia-ed”.
joe lewis had an interest in sevco-rangers at one point; would consider himself a unionist, I reckon – but he made his first money on black wednesday as he and soros r4ped the GBP – which shows the loyalty of the forex speculator – england without scottish resources will get nailed, which means when it comes down to the post independence negotiations, the use of GBP (for at least a short time) might be ALL the leverage we need to get everything we want.
Robert Peffers Scots voted to stay in the Union in 2014, if Scots ever decided to leave Westminster would become the Parliament of England and Wales (plus probably still Northern Ireland) as it was until Scotland joined the Union in 1707, what an absurd point
This Troll Crap about Scotland Voted to stay abused and ignored
in 2014.
It was corrupt like nothing else previously has been corrupted.
Dark money coming in from the Middle East to the DUP Terrorist Party and into Scotland.
BBC, Daily Redcoat Vow and Daily Hail among all 37 UK newspapers working for the rich by corruption Scotland’s true prospects.
The Purda was broken illegally but nothing was done about it.
The £3 Billion Investment in Scotland’s wind and wave technology, 13 major ships for the Clyde- broken, 3,000 HMRC jobs in Scotland to be secured- Broken, £1 Billion Carbon Capture investment for Peterhead-Broken, extensive new powers for Holyrood to become the most powerful devolved parliament
I the world- so secure Westminster an strip it of any devolved powers it likes for as long as it likes?
How about lying Carmichael wasting £1 Billion of Public Money to slander our First Minister-Off Scot Free.
How about wee Ruth opening postal votes before the count?
Indy Ref 1 result is null and void.
Useful only to show the depths Westminster Corruption factory will go to ensure Scotland’s wealth is pocketed by London.
For pity sake they had out medals for people who came in 4th at sports vents 16 years as another athlete was proven to cheat.
Is that to be a more serious crime than suppressing an entire Nation? Is it hell.
@CBB
I think it was a typo, either NOT being missing, or meaning the Union not the Eurpoean one.
@RJS
Next on the list for “we know your motives”, in no particular order:
1. Angus Robertson
2. Craig Murray
3. Alec Salmond
4. Rev
5. Ian Blackford
6. Blair Jenkins
7. Nicola Sturgeon
8. A.N. Other
Don’t rise to the bait, it’s the same as in the MSM forums, they’re trying to discredit.