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The trouble with Corbyn

Posted on August 14, 2017 by

(By the always-excellent Phantom Power Films.)

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  1. 14 08 17 10:57

    The trouble with Corbyn | speymouth

821 to “The trouble with Corbyn”

  1. I don’t trust Corbyn and never will.
    This he said on (16 June 2016)

    ‘Stop blaming migrants and the EU for job insecurity caused by New Labour and Tory Governments.
    Blame Blair, Brown, Thatcher and Major for job insecurity’

    Then on 23 July 2017 of this year he made a 180 degree U-turn claiming “‘Wholesale EU immigration has destroyed conditions for British Workers”.

  2. Street Andrew says:

    Nice one, Phantom.

  3. Sandra Patterson says:

    He’s one man in a corrupt and discredited party. I wouldn’t be surprised it they found a way to ditch him the minute he got the keys to Number 10.

  4. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Fabulous stuff.

  5. Bryan Weir says:

    Excellent dissection.

  6. Conan the Librarian says:

    Take that, Cat.

  7. Brian Powell says:

    I guess no answer yet from C Boyd and Billy Bragg?

    I’m surprised Alan Bissett even thought of voting for Corbyn, unless he lives in Islington. We all know it’s not a Presidential election.

    It’s a weird argument, if one was to ask the average Scottish voter if they would vote for Corbyn in their Scottish constituency, they would either look puzzled or laugh out loud.

    It’s like some bizarre intellectual exercise, but with dire consequences if acted out, only they don’t seem to understand that.

  8. Artyhetty says:

    Excellent. The contradictions at the core of the Labour party, wholesale, should concern all who support and follow them. It is why they are not in power at WM. Labour in Scotland are not autonomous, they do and will follow orders and do and will continue to deny Scotland exercising the democratic right to self determination.

    I don’t think for one moment that the Labour party are not aware of what they are doing in terms of stoking up British nationalism, and in terms of demonising the SNP, in their attempts to portray them and their members as well as those who support Scottish independence, as ethnic nationalists.

    Labour are an establishment centre right wing party, who condone austerity being foisted on the poorest, most vulnerable people in our society.

    They ditched socialism a long time ago. England needs a new left of centre, socially responsible, economically competent, internationalist, political party. Labour are too joined at the hip to the tories now, terrified to be seen to be left wing. It won’t happen, so they are stuck with a dangerously ineffective so called opposition, and a very right wing, insular tory party for the foreseeable future.

    Oohhh Corbyn. Oh indeed. Shame you were so adamant that you would not allign with the SNP. Turning your pretendy lefty nose up at the SNP, just exposed your Britnat, Scotland isn’t a country, North Britain is ours attitude. A disgrace and no friend of Scotland, clear as day, no contradiction there, that much is obvious, for those who care to see.

  9. David McCann says:

    The ever brilliant Alan Bissett!

  10. Les Wilson says:

    First class,usual standard from these guys.

    I think they deserve a place in the Scottish media when the time comes, as well as recognition of what they have done on our behalf.
    Add them to the list along with the Rev, who is indispensable to the Indy movement, there are others of course.

  11. I remember Alan’s predictions on a NO vote in the Independence Referendum, they were spot on.

  12. Gavin Barrie says:

    I’ve tweeted this to Cat Boyd this morning, asking her for her thoughts.

    She’s usually very willing to give her opinion, but I suspect I won’t get a reply to this query.

  13. Proud Cybernat says:

    Scottish nationalism = civic. All people, no matter where they are from, who live and work here had the right to vote in our IndyRef14.

    British nationalism = ethnic. Only ‘British’ people had the right to vote in the EU Ref.

    There’s the difference right there. Scottish nationalism is inclusive, British nationalism is exclusive (exceptional).

  14. galamcennalath says:

    Half way through …..

    “Why would I put my trust in the English electorate to make the right decision on Scotland’s behalf when it’s proven time and time again it just disnae happen?”

    … and that is the central issue. The English MIGHT at some point vote for a centre left government, but for decades now they have voted centre right to far right.

    Even if a UK government which was more in tune with Scotland’s views were ever elected, there is absolutely no guarantee that it will be respectful and fair to Scotland, it will still be London centric. As Alan says, Labour has at its core staunch British Nationalist ideology.

    There is only one way to move forward and that is independence, and it is highly unlikely Labour will ever contribute positively to that objective.

    Corbyn may be a good solution for England, he offers nothing to Scotland.

  15. heedtracker says:

    In fairness, or something like that, losing control of Scotland is an almost incalculable loss to any country, let alone England.

    Its why there really is almost nothing they wont say or do to prevent this ever happening, aka the historic The Vow shyste, we beg you stay, look, we will give you devo-max, a federal UK even, lead us Scotland, to better together tomorrow.

    As soon as they won, forget The Vow and fuck off, you’re British…

  16. galamcennalath says:

    At the core of Scotland’s problems lies non civic nationalism, IMO.

    Sometimes it’s British Nationalism, which is what many in the Labour and LibDems parties adhere to. However, they don’t seem to recognise it, as Alan points out,

    Sometimes however it is English Nationalism which has a particularly nasty streak of the aggressive superiority. Then it become Greater English nationalism and Imperialism. This is what thrives within the hard right of the Tory party and UKIP.

    Then in Scotland we have that stance cringe among Proud Scots Buts. They claim to be British but deep down I suspect they are Wannabe English. They ‘aspire’ to attitudes, values, and behaviour of the English Home Counties. Among this group are the Scottish Tories. Like all Tories, they have the English nationalism of entitlement and exceptionalism.

  17. Les Wilson says:

    Corbyn is exactly how Bissett describes him, the British state must remain unified at all costs. Which shows he will always toe that line and in his view Scotland must do the same.

    He is a British nationalist,something we all should remember, and of course that is just fine for him and his beloved England.

    However Scottish nationalism should have no place in the UK,and what he really is a part of is English nationalism. For that is what we are really up against, English v Scottish Nationalism albeit two different kinds and with two different agendas.

  18. Calum McKay says:

    Agree with every word!

    The parallel with Ireland I have always thought an elephant in the room for labour that has not been been brought to the attention of the Scottish people. british labour’s relationship withe the SDLP exemplifies the policy and feeling towards Ireland. Yet Scotland is treated like a colony behind iour backs. This is further demonstrated by Milliband stating border posts would be needed if Scotland became independent, yet none will be needed post brexit in Ireland.

    The down fall of labour this time round is unlikely to be left / right fight, it will be brexit.

    Corbyn and McDonnell (like May) were luke warm on the EU, hence they never fought for it. By the time brexit comes, those who wanted leave will have diminished interest, they expected exit the next day after the vote and those aginst it will be mobilised as the economic outlook and standing of uk looks disastrous.

    At this stage there are many potential scenarios, but I think the tories will be sufficiently fleet of foot to change tact. But labour will be stuck trying to pacify people whose interest has moved on or voter age churn has seen a shift in Englamd in favour of remain. labour will revert back to being ferrets in a sack we have seen over the past five years.

    The other inconsistencies of trident, immigration and austerity still divide labour, whereas they unite the nationalist movement. labour’s Indian summer is coming to an end, it will be a long a tough Scottish winter for them!

  19. Chick McGregor says:

    It is amazing how a subconscious guilt complex works on the human mind.

    Some of the most innately rude and insensitive types are the biggest promoters of the rules of etiquette and manners.

    Some of the least tolerant and most nasty types you are ever likely to meet are Christian proselytizers. (Or other religions).

    And some of the most naturally ethnically nationalistic types are Labourites.

    Of course, there are also many drawn to each of those for exactly the right reasons as well.

  20. Cal says:

    I said on this very forum way back when Cornyn first appeared on the stage as a serious contender for the Labour leadership that he was a British nationalist. I also said that I thought he was a poor speaker with no spark of passion to motivate people. I still think that but obviously many others disagree with me judging by the huge crowds at his rallies. I struggle to understand his appeal.

    To me he comes across as dishonest. I find him quite cold and calculating, a kind of pied piper character.

  21. Peter A Bell says:

    Alan and I generally see things in much the same way. And I would not demur at all from his conclusions about Jeremy Corbyn, British Labour and their Scottish branch operation. The only thing I have a slight problem with is his reluctance to criticise those self-proclaimed Yes supporters who nonetheless voted for the British nationalist Labour Party in the 2017 UK general election.

    Having assembled and presented a cogent, coherent argument that “voting for Corbyn” is totally inconsistent with the aims of Scotland’s independence movement; and of dubious utility, at best, in terms of advancing progressive politics in general, Alan then offers comfort and succour to those who did the very thing he has just put some effort into persuading us is grotesquely illogical, if not face-slappingly stupid.

    Why? Why hold back? If a course of action is illogical and daft, then it follows that the people who follow that course of action are guilty of doing something daft and illogical. What purpose is served by pretending otherwise?

    Alan is a nice guy. But politics isn’t known for rewarding niceness. Particularly the politics of the British state. We have to be prepared to condemn where this is appropriate. And do so in terms that leave no room for doubt or pretence about the fallacies and foolishness we are speaking against.

    Of course people are entitled to vote as they please. Nobody, that I am aware of, is arguing otherwise. What would be the point in doing so? There is no way to compel anybody to vote in a particular way. Under normal circumstances, we have no way of even knowing how a person has cast their ballot. Of course people can vote in any way they want.

    But if someone decides to publicly proclaim that they have voted in a particular way, they implicitly invite comment on their electoral choice. If they have voted in a way that contradicts previously declared principles, then they are perfectly legitimate targets for criticism on the grounds of hypocrisy. Although we might still opt to set aside such criticism. Particularly if we’re a ‘nice guy’.

    However, if an individual appears to be trying to persuade others to emulate behaviour that undermines a dearly held principle or worthy cause, then surely we have a responsibility to speak out. We have a duty to discourage that behaviour.

    Actions have consequences. If someone asserts that voting for a British nationalist party has no possible adverse implications for the cause of restoring Scotland’s independence, they are either a fool or a liar or both. I, for one, will have not the slightest compunction about saying as much.

  22. heedtracker says:

    Losing control of their Scotland region, and now Brexit, not good. What’s the solution?

    Drag Scotland out of Europe bettertogether with us or,

    David Miliband
    The Observer
    David Miliband: we need a second vote on Brexit deal
    Former Labour minister enters fray over Europe to urge fightback on ‘act of economic self-harm’

    Can we please have indyref2?

    No, you’re British.

    Its creepy how UK hacks tick. Why can’t The Graun gimps say out loud, We need a second referendum?

    Because they’ve blocked one for Scotland.

    So our imperial masters can’t even say the word, referendum.

    It might wind up the jocks.

  23. gordoz says:

    O/T Met Allan Bissett a few times, true gent and def yesser to the core. He’s a socialist AYE in my view, but a realist also – not afraid to address big left flaws & conflict issues.

    If you get a chance go and see his Shows, they say more about the Scotland we live in than any of Cat Boyd or Ross Greers output.

  24. sinky says:

    Excellent should be sent to every North British Labour Party supporter

  25. gordoz says:

    Seriously want to make a point and not insult anyone but Cat (and Ross) would do well to meet up with Allan Bissett and reboot their left /YES thoughts, or at least watch this film and learn something about fringe politics and the dangers of flirting with Unionism.

    Allan has a clear understanding of Labour & Corbyn (no doubt about that)

    Great advice here in this film.

  26. gordoz says:

    Kevin McKenna why dont you go along and chat to Allan and all; but maybe the fitba’ would end up the focus of that discussion?? 🙂

  27. Macart says:

    Another Keeper. 🙂

  28. ronnie anderson says:

    Implosion is always akin to Labour party & long may that continue.

  29. Its a strange kind of politician who supports the right of self determination to the peoples of other countries throughout the World to become independent.

    Yet he opposes and does what he can to obstruct the right to the people of one of the oldest nations in Europe to regain their independence.

    As for Corbyn being a good solution for England, I
    doubt it and suspect the electorate south of the
    border will quickly see through him.

    As the leader of the official opposition, the number of U-turns he’s already made on policies he has already announced doesn’t bode well for the future if he were to make it into No 10 downing street and finds he is unable to deliver all that he is currently promising.

    Just look at what happened to Hollande’s popularity in France once he was elected and failed to deliver on what he promised the people.

    Corbyn will go the same way.

  30. colin alexander says:

    “The most energised Labour campaign I’ve ever seen…. Couldnae beat the most shambolic Tory campaign we have ever seen.”

    The most energised political campaign I’ve ever seen-Indyref- couldnae beat Project Fear.

    A YES campaign MUST win over Labour voters to stand any chance of winning an indyref. 2014, Labour led the BritNat campaign. Mr Corbyn is now leader of Labour – and he is clearly more peersuasive than Ed Miliband or Alistair Darling.

    He will appeal directly to Labour voters to stay with UK Labour by voting NO.

    Since 2014, there has been no YES campaign, it’s all about the SNP. They attempted to translate support for YES into support for the SNP – without offering independence; like Labour without socialist policies.

    Now, under Mr Corbyn, superficially Labour appear to be offering socialism. Seemingly, a party returning to it’s core values.

    The message driven home on here, and by the SNP, Labour and Tories is that support for independence and support for the SNP are one and the same. The political parties have turned Scotland’s democratic freedom into a party political issue -instead of an issue in it’s own right: Scotland’s political sovereignty.

    The Tories and Labour did it deliberately to try and scare their voters away from supporting a Yes campaign. The SNP did it deliberately to corral support for independence into more power for the SNP. Even when the SNP aren’t seeking a mandate for independence.

    Where does that leave the SNP?
    50% in May 2015,(Corbyn becomes Labour leader in September 2015)
    46.5% in 2016,
    36.9% in 2017

    Where does that leave support for independence if another indyref is held?

    Since the SNP hit a winning formula in 2007 there has been no new policies, no new ideas on how to achieve independence. The SNP’s 2017 GE campaign was the worst political campaign I’ve seen. Even worse than the Tories’ UK campaign.

    In 2014 Yes made people interested in Scotland. Since then, it’s all about the SNP. A vote for the SNP is a vote for the SNP.

    They haven’t been fighting for Scotland’s independence for the last three years. Their priority is ruling a puppet devolution Parliament under WM control.

  31. Breastplate says:

    Alan explains things very well but I have to disagree with him when he says labour are a left wing party. That is a pretence.
    They are a right wing party with a left wing leader and the party will drag him to the right before he can drag them to the left.

  32. Lenny Hartley says:

    Peter A Bell very well said, what I tried to communicate with a mate yesterday a lot less eloquently.

  33. ClanDonald says:

    Corbyn doesn’t just hold the same position as the Tories on Brexit, he also holds the same position as UKIP.

    By the way, if any independence supporters are still saying we need to vote Corbyn after this they just simply need to be ignored. We are wasting energy arguing with their rubbish.

  34. galamcennalath says:

    Why does Corbyn support self determination for every nation except Scotland?

    I could hypothesis, however at a fundamental level it should ring big alarm bells about how genuine his supposed believes are. Any of them.

  35. ScottishPsyche says:

    Alan Bissett has really grown in my estimation since the referendum. He does seem to be able to put into words what I often think and cannot say.

    He also seems relatively uninterested in social media wars and giving an anodyne view on the Papers on Radio Shortbread so I trust him more than a few others.

    Corbyn has become a vehicle for power hungry SLabbers unfortunately who will use him and his contradictory views to their own end. Talking of which, what an absolute brass neck that Monica Lennon has – the Paul Nuttall of SLab.

  36. Robert Peffers says:

    @Sandra Patterson says: 14 August, 2017 at 9:52 am:

    “He’s one man in a corrupt and discredited party. I wouldn’t be surprised it they found a way to ditch him the minute he got the keys to Number 10.”

    Corbyn is in the unenviable position of being the central figure in the middle of a Labour party engaged in an internal civil war.

    The Parliamentary Labour Party are Red Tory NuLabour remnants of the Blair/Brown/Darling schism that broke from old Labour’s pseudo-traditional socialist values that only moved rightwards because Middle-England refused to ever elect Old Labour.

    The grass roots membership still believes that the Labour Party proper are traditionally a socialist party but the party had abandoned that ethic long before Blair came to power. This has to be true or Blair would never have got even a sniff of power.

    So now the Parliamentary Labour Party are anti-Corbyn while the grass roots card-carrying membership are pro-Corbyn and the party rules see Corbyn retaining the leadership against the express wishes of the Parliamentary Labour Party.

    In other words there are really two quite different parties contained within the overall heading of, “The Labour Party”.

    Yet everyone, except party members, can see the only solution is for the party to split apart. The Parliamentary Labour Party can then return to their Tory party roots. The main body of the party can then go forward as a socialist party.

    The hidden problem Labour has is that the non-party, socialist voting, punters in the street are far too dim to realise those they imagine are socialist Labour Party candidates are really Tories wearing red Labour rosettes.

    I believe, though, that many of the misinformed people among the electorate are now seeing the Parliamentary Labour Party for what they really are.

    Until then Corbyn is faced with the unenviable task of leading the party and keeping the voters on side while forced to pander to the Parliamentarians who want him gone.

    It will not end happily for either Labour faction.

  37. Dr Jim says:

    All my Scottish friends and relatives say they’re Scottish
    All my Inglish relatives say they’re Inglish
    I have Irish friends who are Irish

    The only British people I hear about are all on the Telly talking about being proud to be British like it’s a Nationality or something, folk in the European Union don’t generally refer to themselves as European Unionists unless it’s for context, they say they’re French or German or Spanish or whatever because it’s who they are
    Even Americans reference themselves as being “from” the US then quickly follow it up by telling you which state, because that’s generally what they’re proudest of or don’t want to be associated with another state they don’t approve of

    So just who are these British? and what drives them to adopt a made up identity other than the one they had naturally at birth
    Are they ashamed of their countries? or are they ashamed to say they changed Inglish Nationalism for the word British to legitimise right wing unpleasantness

    When I was a youngster you never heard the word British except in reference to the armed services or politics now this Britishness has spread like the Flu and used to justify or assert all sorts of nonsense funnily enough just in the same way our American cousins have fallen victim to unpleasantness over there lately

    Maybe those Amish folk have got it right when they warn their young about going out among them Inglish
    (That last part was humour but it does make you think)

    My Identity? I’m a musician and we all know who we are Black White Yellow Pink with green spots, as long as you can do the job you’re in the band

    That’s why I’m in the SNP….same thing

  38. jfngw says:

    @Peter A Bell

    I think it is more powerful to debunk their arguments rather than give them the oxygen of more publicity. I’m not convinced personal criticism wins over many voters, a strong narrative of the positives of why we believe an independent Scotland can be better governed is what interests me.

    The inconsistencies of their position does need to be revealed, but we should steer clear of giving them the tweeting martyr syndrome, the MSM lap it up.

  39. Jack Murphy says:

    Alan Bissett describes in a few minutes the reality of Jeremy Corbyn and the underlying British Nationalism running through the Labour Establishment.

    Thankyou Alan,you’ve put into a few words what I’ve been thinking for a long time.

    One of the best Phantom Power Films. 🙂

  40. Ghillie says:

    Hey hey hey!!!

    It was Crazycat who alerted us to this the really useful wee filum yesterday = )

    Thank you Rev Stu for this today because it needed to be headlined:)

    BUT extra BIG thank you to Crazycat for linking us to this in advance : )

    And thank you Phantom Power Films again = ) and Alan Bissett for not voting SLAB! And for making this film of the latter day Toom Tabard =)

  41. heedtracker says:

    Breastplate says:
    14 August, 2017 at 11:44 am
    Alan explains things very well but I have to disagree with him when he says labour are a left wing party. That is a pretence.
    They are a right wing party with a left wing leader and the party will drag him to the right before he can drag them to the left.”

    And its all because England is a centre right Thatcherite country.

    Its why New Labour er, got elected. Blair was the English toryboy, Brown was the canny Scotch bank manager, because they do like the canny loyal Scotch, ending boom and bust, haha.

    Who was the new New Labour PM Brown’s very first special guest at No.10?
    Brown welcomes Thatcher to No 10

    It only came crashing down, after City/Wall Street bankster fraudsters were finally exposed and either tax the rich or austerity, let the poorest and most vulnerable take the hit. Crash Gordo says he had no clue the City banksters had gone insane with greed but so what, New Labour were history, why take the risk.

    As long as the English voting majority see their house prices rise, their pay go up, their businesses expand, they will vote centre right. And they can tune in to the BBC to be told why its the only option too.

    Anyway its all worked hasn’t it, national debt and deficit’s been fixed, students pay their own uni costs, City slickers are all honest now… why vote JC anyway, must be true BBC Scotland says it is.

  42. Ghillie says:

    Robert Peffers, (yesterday)

    Hear you. It’ll take time and alot of good will.

    Regardless of anyone’s right to the name, the words Britain and British have long been tarnished for me. Won’t be using them without feeling ill for a while. Bonny Isles will do for me for as long as it takes.

    Hey though, that’s quite something to have so much of your family emigrate to the other side of the World. Hope we make up for it a bit now = )

    Have a lovely day folks 🙂

  43. Robert Peffers says:

    @heedtracker says: 14 August, 2017 at 11:14 am

    ” … So our imperial masters can’t even say the word, referendum.
    It might wind up the jocks.”

    I’ve news for you, heedtracker.

    No one needs worry about, “winding up The Jocks”.

    We Jocks are, like those pre-electronic mechanical watches, a auto-self-winding mechanism actuated by movement and that actuating movement is the YES movement.

  44. Murray mcCallum says:

    Great to hear someone talk through the fundamental British nationalism of the Labour Party, it’s many contradictions and policy hypocrisy.

    Many people are placing their faith in Jeremy Corbyn being the leader to crush Scotland’s aspirations of running its own affairs.

    This is exactly how Corbyn’s current progress is being reported. Weird that folks who support Scottish independence have joined the wagon.

  45. Liz says: GAPONSONBY wrote a very good article yesterday.

    IMO this is the reality of folk like Kevin McK & RISE.
    They want others to do the heavy lifting and for them to take the glory.

    KMcK wrote an inaccurate article about Michelle Thompson recently and when she asked for a correction he told her .”she would get over it”
    This is a woman who’s career has been ruined by the UK press.
    Wonder how he would feel if it happened to him

  46. Valerie says:

    Love Alan Bissett, and this is no exception!

    He makes some brilliant responses on Bella sometimes, always full of salient points, just like this.

    Thank you, Alan, and Rev.

  47. heedtracker says:

    Robert Peffers says:
    14 August, 2017 at 12:45 pm
    @heedtracker says: 14 August, 2017 at 11:14 am

    ” … So our imperial masters can’t even say the word, referendum.

    Graun is an odd paper today Rab, very odd, a kind of toryboy place for shy toryboys.

    Independent’s not shy of the word referendum. Although, again to be fair, the Independent is just about the only English paper to be actually and very against Brexit.

    NewsUKHome News
    David Miliband calls for second referendum on Brexit deal to stop UK being ‘driven off a cliff’
    Former Foreign Secretary describes 2016 referendum that triggered Brexit as ‘unparalleled act of economic self-harm’

    Gavin Cordon a day ago387 comments

    Ofcourse the same paper is 100000% No to Scotland being allowed a ref2. That’s not going to happen, its just not British, is the cunning plan.

  48. ronald alexander mcdonald says:

    Brilliant Alan! I suspect that could be the most effective reality check for YES voting Labour people we will ever hear.

  49. Dan Huil says:

    Great stuff. If you want Scotland to regain its ndependence don’t vote for Labour.

  50. call me dave says:

    Excellent dissection by Bisset of the Labour Party North and South in the UK.

    Crystalised all the salient points very well. Good stuff! 🙂

  51. Betty Boop says:

    Really excellent video from Phantom Power.

    We need these folk who formed the backbone of National Collective out on the road.

    Yes groups, get together and get in touch with them and organise events featuring these folk who can speak with passion about this country as well as entertain. Even if only those with our own view of what’s best for this country came along, they hear, they talk, they can pass that energy on.

    You may have read this already, but, another guy who speaks with passion and has quite a few decent ideas wrote this brilliant, inspiring article:

  52. yesindyref2 says:

    Great article in The National by Carolyn Leckie, very inclusive and unifying:

  53. yesindyref2 says:

    Posted that too soon as oft times before.

    The point about such an article being written by Carolyn Leckie is that I’m often critical of her articles even if I don’t always post a comment, as they’re often to one side, and in themselves can be divisive.

    But her article is a real strong effort to be unifying, in the sense that all the disparate groups, views, visions for Independent Scotland have one thing in common, something that is strong enough to hold us all together even if we do often fall out, have angry arguments, hurtle insults, have spats, huge differences of opinions on everything under the sun, including things that are very important to us individually, or as a group.

    And that’s Independence.


  54. donald anderson says:

    The only criticism I would make of this excellent presentation is that Labour does NOT support a United Ireland.

    Labour stood and cheered in the House at the news of James Connolly’s execution, wounded and strapped to a chair, 1916.

    Labour also supported the partition of Ireland in 1922.

    Labour sent the Troops IN to Ireland, Under (Lord) Harold Wilson in 1969 and introduced the Prevention of Terrorism Act, which made them the worst offenders of Human Rights in the EU.

    Wedgie Benn and Mickey Foot supported this and Labour’s zero per cent Pay Freeze. Benn as Min of Tech built more Nuclear plants than the Tories, causing the closure of most of the Scottish mining pits.

    Michael Foot got his claes frae the same Chelsea Charity Shoaps as Jeremiah Corbyn.

    As usual, nothing changes under Labour, except their many faces.

  55. heedtracker says:

    Labour love a good war as much any Westminster gov.

    Labour get another free Guardian pass today. JC’s the ex veep of CND, who will buy Trident 2, just not fire it, maybe. But this commentator thinks world war is coming, having witnessed the last one.

    “Britain also has nothing to be proud of. Since the Iraq war our country has been on a downward decline, as successive governments have eroded democracy, social justice and savaged the welfare state with austerity, leading us into the cul de sac of Brexit.

    Like Trump, Brexit cannot be undone by liberal sanctimony – it can only be altered if the neoliberal economic model is smashed as if it were a statue of a dictator by a liberated people.
    After years of Tory government, Britain is more equipped to change the course of history for the good than we were under Neville Chamberlain, when Nazism was appeased in the 1930s”

  56. Robert Graham says:

    One more time – one more chance how many times have we to listen to this total Pish. Labour have never delivered on their promises.

    voting for any unionist outfit will Never get you independence , it doesn’t matter what name they pretend to use its one party , and remember they didn’t win the last general election, this despite all the gloom and doom and the loss of some snp mps .

    The union failed to win we still have a majority of snp mps , more than the rest combined .

    The union and the defence of it has not progressed and they bloody well know it , but cant admit it , thats why the efforts by their media have increased ten fold , they are worried , their best efforts haven’t worked, Oh dear how sad.

  57. yesindyref2 says:

    When a jpg, taken from the single copy of The National bought every day by the Unionist propaganda unit (otherwise known as BBC Scotland), an image of that article of Carolyn Leckie, arrived on the breakfast tables of assorted mixed Unionist agents, there was weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth at the upset of all their carefully laid plans, which have been brought down to nought, disappeared as though they never were, in their vain attempts to get YES at each others’ throats and parts other beers just don’t reach.

    The 77th will have been choking on their imported K-rations

    National nockers will have been madly looking through their comment database pulling out quote to try to discredit The National

    Unionist sleepers will have woken up and gone back to bed to have nightmares

    Trolls will have been caught in the sun and turned to stone

    David Torrance will have been frantically looking at his well-fingered copy of the “Lexicon of Snide”

    Blair MacDougall will have been checking out who ran the Tory campaign and looking for a safe seat in Australia

    Ruth Davidson will have got straight on to Rightmove while emailing her acceptance of a nomination for UK Tory leader, even to those who never nominated her yet

    Magnus Gardham dug out his CV and updated it for his job search in 2 years time

    David Mundell did nothing

    . . .

  58. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh, and more on topic, Jeremy Corbyn will have put his application in for membership of WFI

  59. heedtracker says:

    call me dave says:
    14 August, 2017 at 1:28 pm
    Excellent dissection by Bisset of the Labour Party North and South in the UK.

    But I am taken aback that any YES Scot could have even considered voting Labour at all, and ever again.

    Look at what they really are, fundamentally and look at what the independent nation state Scotland could become and achieve, shaking off parties like Labour for good.

    Yes Brtinat gimp beeb Scotland’s vote SLab, SNP bad propaganda is relentless here but even so, look at what Labour really are.

    How can any YES Scot even consider sanctioning Trident nukes dumped in Argyll, for giant and major wtf example.

    In the event of nuke war, Faslane is ofcourse a big nuke missile target but no more or less than all other big targets, from London, Paris, Liverpool, Nottingham, Berlin, all big centres of population across Europe.

    So the only reason Trident is dumped in Scotland by UK military strategists is because its too dangerous to be stored in England.

    And yet we have to listen to YES Scots go, I might well vote Lab but…

  60. Fireproofjim says:

    Heedtracker 2.25
    Trident was dumped in Scotland because it is very dangerous. You are right, and it was ever thus.
    Dounreay was not built in Caithness to provide work for the locals. It was built there because it was as far away from London as possible. It was a new type of reactor and nobody knew how stable the fast breeder system would be. There were real fears of a nuclear accident, but if Thurso got irradiated, well too bad, but it is a small town.
    Similarly Gruinard Island was contaminated with anthrax during biological warfare experiments. Again a long way from London.
    Watch out for the plan to bury nuclear waste. It won’t be in the Thames estuary. That’s for sure.

  61. dakk says:

    The bearded hypocrite is also onto his third wife,so he is either very unreliable,a poor judge of character,and/or does’nt take Vows very seriously.

    Just your bog standard Yoon really.

  62. heedtracker says:

    Fireproofjim says:
    14 August, 2017 at 2:41 pm
    Heedtracker 2.25
    Trident was dumped in Scotland because it is very dangerous. You are right, and it was ever thus.

    Its really not though. Look at how teamGB has very rapidly de-militarised its Scotland region, in the last two years, since enough suckers up here voted NO.

    Alex up there knows all this, and yet he actually considered a vote a Lab, and for the UK, and for a Lab crew that marched off to war with neo con USA, virtually creating their endless war on terror.

    Not impressed. If youre a YES Scot, voting Lab is marking an X on the UKOK tory status quo. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Look at how the tories reneged on the super barracks in the central belt, or how they closed RAF Leuchars and Kinloss, despite promising to keep them open, for suckers up here to vote for them.

    Yes, Crash Gordon bought the two giant aircraft carriers for Fife, but that was clearly for his own constituency, and for Britnat loyalists, and what’s next for Fife, in the UK?

    Fcuk all.

    UK gov just spent £100 million dredging Plymouth harbour, not for Trident but to get Crash Gordo’s carriers in.

    Why could they not have been based the carriers in Fife, dear Crash?

    Because they know that sooner rather than later, they’re going to run out of suckers in Scotland to vote Lab, undecided now maybe but as each teamGB passes in Scotland…

  63. yesindyref2 says:

    OT again
    What a tangled web history is, but with the present as well. After this is all over and done (getting Independence) I must get back to it:

  64. Alex Clark says:

    Great presentation of the case against voting for Labour in Scotland if your also a supporter of Scotland being Independent.

    Very well done by Alan Bisset and Phantom Power Films who go from strength to strength. I’d love to see more exclusive filming made by them of the “big guns” both in the SNP and the wider Yes movement.

    Tommy Shepherd would make a good choice for one such film, 10 to 15 minutes seems to be ideal. We don’t need a formal interview in my view, just hearing a bit more of a well kent face talking of their views on a particular topic.

    Alyn Smith on Brexit or the Rev on social media, I would include too journalists, radicles and ordinary people we may never have heard of that are quietly working in the background in support of Yes. For example Wings regular Dave McEwan Hill and how Radio Argyll got off the ground. Lots of topics to be explored.

    Well done Phantom Power.

  65. starlaw says:

    If Corbyne wins a general Election, he’ll be dumped faster than a bad smell The Labour Party are not socialists just an alternative Tory party Scotland needs neither. Don’t believe any true yes supporter would vote Labour… There’s nothing there.
    Faslane is the biggest nuclear target in Britain in the event of any war it will be attacked.

  66. Alex Clark says:

    O/T Anyone that supported GA Ponsonby’s recent fundraiser regarding analysis of BBC political output realting to Scottish matters might be interested in this latest update.

    Even if you didn’t support it, I think it’s an interesting read.

  67. Brian Powell says:

    People in England were desperate for something to come along and ‘save’ them, they thought Jeremy Corbyn was it.

    The tricky thing for Scotland is that the Scottish Government has been doing what he claims he would do. So always more difficult to do new and say you will now do this when you are already doing it and people are getting the benefits! They forget they have it.

    There is a problem if Corbyn did get to be PM, apart from his own MPs being against him, in Scotland the SNP voters and Yes voters, they wouldn’t be behind the Labour Party, none of that energy wouldn’t belong to the Labour Party.

    I doubt if those who go canvassing or filled the streets of Glasgow or campaigned in thousands outside the BBC in Glasgow are with him or Labour.

  68. call me dave says:


    Whatever the ‘subject, politics /history’ younger folk never lived through it and (rightly) must experience it all for themselves. We older folk have seen it and done it, but we are not so smart either that we know all the answers. 🙁

    That is the first Phantom Power film I have watched as I can’t / won’t view the ‘No to Yes’ series because I am still so disappointed that most voters opted to stay with the union in 2014.
    They are too late to the fight and the next chance is anybody’s guess.

    I knew it was a tough ask in 2014 but hoped that Scotland was a country worth backing.
    I’ll always vote YES and hope for what is best but it better come along sooner rather than later for me. 🙂

    Back on holiday!

  69. galamcennalath says:

    Unionists fail to recognise their blood and soil nationalism.

    Unionists fail to see their attitudes as often marginal or even full blown fascist.

    Unionists fail to accept when it comes down to abuse – verbal face to face, or written online – they are the worst perpetrators.

    And to top it all, these are the very things they accuse Indy supporters of.

    Denial, hypocrisy, exceptionalism … it applies to Labour Unionists as much as others.

  70. heedtracker says:

    Brian Powell says:
    14 August, 2017 at 3:16 pm
    People in England were desperate for something to come along and ‘save’ them, they thought Jeremy Corbyn was it

    Fact is though, that last bizzaro snap GE was fought almost entirely in Scotland, by SLab, JC, tories, FibDem, vote for us to stop indyref2 and virtually nothing else.

    JC was merely the bait, in their great 2017 yoon bait n switch fraud on Scotland.

    All of them, Colonel Ruth, Kez, the OO etc, all of them were fighting on the groundwork laid down by the NO to indyref2, just by beeb Scotland attack propaganda alone. since almost the end of 2014,

    So why any of that gave any YES voter at all any cause to even consider for them is an eye opener.

    They wanted it boths ways too. Why not, its not like any BBC Scotland gimp’s going to query them.

    Have they reached peak vote red or blue tory for no to ref2?

    We can probably gauge that by how hard beeb Scotland led propaganda boosts JC for the next couple of years.

  71. Spikethedee says:

    Good analysis.

    My only point would be that, at the end, he did contradict himself by saying that the geographic integrity of the UK appears to be paramount for Labour, but also that they are willing to let Northern Ireland re-unify with the Republic.

    The most telling bit is the bit about Labour using your vote as proof of support for Unionism. We can only vote once, with no conditions attached (ie, I’m voting for you, but only to keep Tories out, or whatever), so until there is a credible alternative, Yes voters MUST vote SNP at every possible opportunity until Independence, then vote according to their particular policy preferences after that.

  72. velofello says:

    Cleverly done, using Corbyn the person – of course Alan cannot vote for Corbyn – and his inconsistencies, to unpick the British nationalist sentiments position of the Labour party.

    O/t, there is a letters page discussion in the National about the influx of English people into Scotland, and concern that they will vote against independence.If I decided to move to Wales I would not not vote in any independence referendum,my view would be that it is for the Welsh people to decide.

  73. colin alexander says:

    So, a vote for Labour… is a vote for Unionism.

    The SNP Scottish Govt mandate for an indyref comes from their 2016 MSP manifesto:

    “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum…if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”


    Angus Robertson, March 2017 said:

    ..all of our efforts are currently focused is trying to convince the UK government to come to a compromise agreement protecting Scotland’s place in Europe,” he said.

    “If that road runs out and if we have to have that referendum, we will be turning our attention to making sure that we are making the case publicly, intellectually and in every other way so people understand the choice of a hard Tory Brexit Britain or a Scotland able to maintain its relations with the rest of Europe.”

    So, the SNP were elected on a mandate that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold an indyref if Scotland is leaving the EU. Scotland is leaving the EU.

    The Scottish Parliament voted for indyref. But Angus Robertson says all their efforts are focused on a compromise to keep UK Scotland (in the Single Market) so there will be no need for an indyref.

    That is a clear betrayal of the SNP manifesto mandate of an indyref if Scotland is taken out the EU – not the Single Market – the EU, against Scotland’s democratic will.

    But I would forgive that and vote for an SNP that explained circumstances have moved on and it’s no longer the most sensible strategy:

    The Supreme Court and UK Govt’s position on devolved powers and the Sewel Convention have shown the whole devolution settlement to be worthless.

    Therefore, the SNP will no longer seek a mandate to administer a devolved government subservient to WM.

    At the next election, SNP politicians will seek a mandate to declare Holyrood the sovereign parliament for Scotland’s people. With parliamentary sovereignty, Holyrood shall be empowered to decide Scotland’s constitutional matters, such as, which powers it will administer – until such time as a majority of the elected parliamentary representatives of the people of Scotland decide Scotland should no longer be part of a United Kingdom.

    If the UK Govt and WM do not legislate to recognise this self-determination in an acceptable manner and timescale to the Scottish Parliament, SNP politicians will lead a parliamentary vote on a declaration of Scottish independence.


    However, the current strategy of the SNP being willing to compromise np Indyref being held, if Scotland

  74. colin alexander says:

    However, the current strategy of the SNP being willing to compromise by cancelling Indyref being held, if Scotland retains Single Market membership, is a clear breach of their manifesto.

  75. yesindyref2 says:


    I drive around mostly rural and island Scotland and have done for years on business, and blether to hundreds and probably thousands of people. I find no difference between incomers and indigenous natives when it comes to YES and NO, when I get the chance to raise Indy.

    But one thing I would add to that is that I find that those who would vote YES often say they won’t vote as it’s not their place to vote, whereas NO voters would just about always vote.

    This is a problem the YES movement needs to address.

    You live in Scotland, you contribute to Scotland in all ways, you’re a part of Scotland, you have a complete right to vote, so please make your vote count. Whichever way you’re going to vote.

    Scotland is an open Democracy.

  76. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Never liked Corbyn.

    Bring back Gordon Brown I say at least he was funny.

  77. heedtracker says:

    Most blatant vote SLabour propaganda, beeb gimp style, so far today. Considering how much vote Slab propaganda BBC Scotland produce like this, you have to ask why SLab are not doing better than 3rd party in Scotland.

    Ministers are being urged to make Scotland a world leader in fighting “period poverty” by making sanitary products free for those who need them.

    Labour MSP Monica Lennon says access to the products should be “a basic right”.

    She wants schools, colleges and universities to be required to provide free items in their female toilets.”

  78. Hamish100 says:

    The so called left wing intelligentsia and I exclude rock in this believe that in order to get Corbyn in power in the U.K. requires less snp MPs!

    No. You need less Tory MPs in Scotland Wales and in England.

    Confused? They seem to be. For this knowledge has been around for the past 50 years.

    Corbyn would work with Sinn Feinn but not the snp! For the latter a party which has always promoted a peaceful franchise.

    Corbyn socialist leanings tells him that Britain is one, Britain is England and England is made up of Wales and Scotland . He can’t help himself. That’s what he has been taught and learned from the London suburbia socialist brigade. Northern Ireland is Irish in his mind, why? Because their Irish!
    Now as for nuclear weapons……..

  79. Reluctant Nationalist says:


    Fuck off fuck off fuck off.

  80. Hamish100 says:

    How blatant of the bcc to promote the labour consultation on “period poverty”

    They already know there is a trial taking place in Aberdeen as to how such precautionary measures could work. Did they say well done Scottish Government for supporting and promoting this?

    A wee press statement from Ms Constance is too week. She should have said ” Glad labour has woken up to this. Are they supporting our trial in Aberdeen?”

  81. Robert Graham says:

    Heedtracker – thanks for the link- I made the mistake of clicking on the comments section, Oh Christ to think there are people out there unattended and totally unsupervised , with access to a keyboard ,
    This Care in the Community has went too far if this is the result, it was like the Scotsman on stilts, then again maybe that’s the point, get all comments on the BBC shut down .

    Nasty devious little f/krs these Unionists.

  82. TheWasp says:

    FFS, first item on disreporting, we are the drunks of the skies

  83. louis.b.argyll says:

    Re strategy,

    Should Scotland ask for a deal?
    .. and if so, would that make us a satellite member of the EU? Or still a puppet on the UK strings.

    A member state within a member state, devolved responsibility with representatives in three parliaments.

  84. mike d says:

    O/t just watched my episode of outlander. “These proud passionate men who lived and breathed for a flag of blue and white. “Aye no wonder Cameron asked Sony not to show it till after ref 2014.

  85. mike d says:

    Sadly now when I go back home to Scotland,and someone is nice to me. I think is this a unionist.?.I cannot bring myself to be nice unless i know otherwise. Sorry if i offend anyone but this is my choice. I just don’t want to integrate with these anti scots people.

  86. crazycat says:

    @ Ghillie at 12.29

    It’s kind of you to mention me, but it was pure fluke that I happened across the Phantom Power tweet on-line (I don’t use Twitter myself) late last night and thought people might find it interesting.

    About that, I was right, I’m pleased to see.

  87. Tinto Chiel says:

    Last time I recall Monica Lennon putting her head above her wee desk at Holyrood was to complain that Christina McKelvie (one of the SNP’s best MSPs) had blocked her on social media.

    Piggy-backing on a socially-just SG policy which BLiS_______d would never have espoused is pretty typical of sad, lost, boilerplate Lanarkshire Labour.

    All given maximum exposure on BBC Scotland, my daughter tells me.

    Query: it’s been a long time since I watched, so who refills the Vichy water in Jackie B’s glass?

  88. Dan Huil says:

    Tinto Chiel 7:11pm

    “Query: it’s been a long time since I watched, so who refills the Vichy water in Jackie B’s glass?”

    Petain[tly] another tractor.

  89. Alastair says:

    BBC investigative journalism at its Westminster Establishment best.
    Big Ben silenced for a few years for refurbishment of the tower. Obvious question completely ducked …. How much?
    Original estimates to committee £4million.
    Mail reporting latest figure is £60 million.
    Any takers for May announcing intention to stand down on Thursday?

  90. Famous15 says:

    Alex Salmond show with Elaine C Smith,Janie Godley and others was fantastic. Grear band too but Alex was not at his singing best but Elaine give it laldy.Conversation very clever from both.

    Noticed Tasmina as producer with worried look stage left. Probably the timing and cueing with an “off the cuff” show must be a nightmare but she need not have worried. Pure dead brilliant!

  91. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dan H: d’accord, mon vieux mechant.

    Ma field disnae dae graves.

    Ah blame The Rev.

  92. Tinto Chiel says:

    Mummy daddy! I meant acutes.

    I await hammers.

  93. mike d says:

    Famous 15. Wish I were there.

  94. Dr Jim says:

    You can always spot the Unionists in the supermarket they hover around the news stand furtively looking right and left before they pick up the Daily Mail or the Express then they fold it title in with their eyes down before they hand it to the counter assistant

    Yes folk who buy the National stand and open it up and virtually wave it around smiling proudly and defiantly before saying hello to the counter assistant because we’re nicer people

    Aye Scotland has changed and no matter what they say, we’re no goin back now!

  95. mike d says:

    O/t Scotland should be asking Westminster and the proudscot but yoons,. IF WE are the greatest devolved wee parliament in the world,where are our broadcasting powers. After all spanish regions like catalonia have this. Wonder how many *proudscotbuts will feel when catalonians vote for indy on 1st October. “Probably those with an iq lower than room temperature,will be more interested in Britain’s got talent. . Sad ignorant people.

  96. mike d says:

    Dr jim 7.42pm yup you must have seen me buyin my copy of the national. Lol.

  97. Tinto Chiel says:

    Dr Jim: I am reliably informed by my newsagent that readers (sic) of the Daily Heil/Express enfold their chosen paper with a copy of Spanking and Cummerbund Monthly.

    Saves embarrassment all round.

  98. If it wasn`t for Kezia Dugdale,and the goons that represent/vote/support Scottish Labour,Corbyn would be PM of a left of centre coalition UK Government,

    he was one of the few that predicted a snap election (Sept 2016 Lab Conf, mocked by political media gimps)so had a lot more time to prepare/organise an effective campaign,

    was in touching distance of the prize,like Doug Sanders with just a three foot putt to win The Open,

    his only flaw was to assume Kezia Dugdale was sane and that in such a tight election Scottish Labour would not advocate voting for his opposition,

    he should have come up here after election swinging an axe,

    he needs to close down Scottish Labour or a least do away with the blairite gimps like Murray,Dugdale,Sarwar,Baillie,Gray,

    Kezia Dugdale`s hatred of her own countries freedom has condemned millions of the most disadvantaged in her precious UK to years of Tory corruption and wanton cruelty.

  99. Rock says:

    Rock (28th October 2014 – And still there were none):

    “Scotland’s enemy number 2 is the Labour party, enemy number 1 being the BBC.”

    Independence is “stone dead” while these two exist.

  100. heedtracker says:

    Independence is “stone dead” while these two exist.

    Why the inverted commas?

    You need a holiday Rock, like this mad old trout.

    The Yanks were surprised at Teresa’s closest allie, Orange Hitler’s 2 weeks off.

  101. Labour have always betrayed the working class and they will never change do you think if labour had been in power we would have free student fees free prescriptions free care for the elderly free hospital car parking and the council tax frozen and more no the SNP are the only party on the u.k. who have helped the working class as I have said before I was a shop steward in the shipyards on the Clyde and I never once voted labour I ran them down for the con men they are and I was laughed at by family and friends well who’s laughing now? I honestly don’t mean to be rude but to me anyone who votes labour must be mad

  102. galamcennalath says:

    Media apparently touting the phrase ‘white nationalists’ to describe US Nazis.

    You see, ‘nationalist’ has connotations of being nasty and wicked and evil etc etc..

    Unless you are a British Nationist. But of course every British Nationalist knows there is no such thing. How could there be? The ‘British’ just don’t do nationalism, that’s what the others do.

  103. ScottishPsyche says:


    Just reading James Cook’s defence of the BBC’s use of the term ‘White Nationalist’ to describe the Nazis in the US.

    I remember watching the Neil Oliver programme where he interviewed a white supremacist who made it very clear his allegiance was to his race, not to the US nation which he viewed as corrupted and contaminated by immigrants. He, like many of his kind, did not see himself as an immigrant or of mixed race because he could go back a few generations to Scottish or Irish colonists. The impression was that he would be happy to see the Southern states break away to form a racially pure state of white supremacy.

    It seems quite naive of Cook to persist with the term.

  104. ScottishPsyche says:

    Probably ‘white imperialist’ would describe these types best as they do seem to feel they are never foreign wherever they go and no nation has anything to teach them.

  105. heedtracker says:

    It seems quite naive of Cook to persist with the term.

    Its just another trick by beeb gimps like this, turn everything on its head.

    Teresa May is just one of several Britnat tories that were the first in Washington to welcome Orange Hitler but why let fact get in the way of domestic attack propaganda like whatisface.

    Telegraph News
    Revealed: the ‘real’ reason why Donald Trump and Theresa May held hands – and it’s not what you think

  106. Truth says:

    Well done and said Alan.

    A lot of sense packed into such a short video.

    Labour in England don’t have Scotland’s interests at heart. Labour in Scotland only have their own interests at heart. It’s always been that way and always will be that way until we are free.

  107. mike d says:

    Scottish psyche 8.50pm. Neil oliver! A piece of excrement who called Scottish nationalists ‘a cancer. Hope this c**t goes like my brother in law,and sister. And dies of it. And f**k any apologists.

  108. Robert Peffers says:

    @Ghillie says: 14 August, 2017 at 12:39 pm:

    Regarding the Term Britain: I was pushed for time and meant to add the following after you said:-

    “Won’t be using them without feeling ill for a while. Bonny Isles will do for me for as long as it takes.

    I do appreciate that the Yoons have seriously debased the term by its improper use. The term literally means The whole of Britain and thus it is an error to use it instead to refer to The United Kingdom, (in Yoonyoonism that is synonymous with England).

    Thing is they cannot reasonably deny they are in error and so have no defence to offer, except pointless bluster, and that only makes them look even more wrong.

    Such abuse is either an indication of the users extremely poor education or, if it is deliberately being used, (or should that be abused), as a form of propaganda, it signifies English blood & soil nationalism. Even then it still indicates the poorly educated numpties don’t know what their own actual country consists of.

    Instead of hate for the poor uneducated numpties we should be taking every opportunity to educate the poor blighters – for their own good you understand, (cough!). It also has the great benefit of disrupting their usual torrent of utter political bullshit.

    You should try it sometime, Ghillie.

    To see the look on some English public school educated numptie when you, (with a straight face of course), adopt your best School Marmish pose and solemnly start informing them their education is sadly lacking. Then add that you are correcting them in their use of the English language and end up chiding them for their use of lowlife gutter slang.

    Mind you I do have the propensity to carry out such outrageous scams with an apparently serious straight face and with what appears to be great authority.

  109. Effijy says:

    I’m waiting on Pres Trump goading North Korea with,
    “You just try taking out Faslane and you’ll be sorry”.

    Followed by Liam Fox chipping in- “You Tell them Donald”.

    How creepy is all this BBC Sentimentality over India’s Independence some 70 years ago?

    The British Killed the natives in their many thousands, stole their resources, taxed them to the hilt, and brokered a partition that would displace millions and kill a million.

    How dare they suggest they ever had an ounce of compassion for India’s people and air brush away British brutality.

    They did a similar teary eye job on the anniversary of the Easter Rising in Ireland. Anther nation who they murdered. raped and robbed.

    Anyone ever hear of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, or Ireland asking Westminster if they would mind robbing them again?

    The BBC Propaganda machine is also outraged by Trump not condemning the White Supremists, but claiming bigotry on many sides?

    The BBC did exactly the same thing when Unionists, many from the Orange Order attacked peaceful Independence supporters in George Square.

    They have reliable sources reporting Independence supporters sticking their heads on Unionist Boots.

    I too suffer from hate, and its a hate that I will have as long as my country is suppressed and denied truth and justice by the UK elite who control the corruption that is Westminster and our Financial institutions.

  110. heedtracker says:

    Oliver is just another Britnat shill. His last BBC archeology blockbuster, Celts in Europe and Britain completely left out Scotland. He’s not just a shill, he’s an intellectual charlatan but he is loaded though.

    That whole archeology series on Europe’s Celts was extremely BBC creepy, on the Celts. Contemporary England loathes Celtic everything basically but its still very weird watching them use a Scottish shill to make sure we get the point, BBC says Celts were bad, bad in the past, v v bad now.

    BBC reverse this week, watching beeb gimps bumming up their long dead British Empire. Oh how these wet farts long for a British time machine and head back the Raj. Scotland’s just small fry really, compared to India.

    Scottish history is unlikely to look kindly on creeps like Neil Oliver though.

  111. Lochside says:

    So Alex Salmond’s latest show had as a special guest David Davies..the snide tory bastard…who apparently is AS’s great pal.

    Well excuse me if I feel like vomiting at the photo of the two of them schmoozing…I’m sorry but I don’t get this old pals act. AS has plummeted in my estimation.All I see now is His stupid gamble with a hasty premature referendum predicated on giving away our300 year old solid sovereign position, consisting of simple majority of MPs for Indy as a basis for dissolution of the Union, for what is now a morass of a devolved clusterfuck cul de sac.

    Nicola Sturgeon tweeting about Clark’s shoes is the tin hat for me. Where is the serious leadership? Disabled Scots are being robbed of their benefits; the young have to emigrate to get away from zero hour contracts and meanwhile are replaced by RUK white flight ‘No’ voters, 40,000 per year. Meanwhile, we’re still sitting here with a nuclear arsenal on our doorstep as Trump and Ruth Davidson’s doppelganger threaten the world’s very existence. Tell that Alex to your mate, the ‘next Prime Minister of the UK’.

    I’ve just about had it with the ‘keep quiet’ mob on here. Meanwhile we sit here waiting for the tories to either implode or more likely negotiate a face saver that will sink Indy forever.

  112. Capella says:

    Spot on, Alan Bisset. Spells out exactly why independence supporters can not vote Labour. If you do vote Labour, you are not an independence supporter. Nothing to add.

  113. crazycat says:

    @ Lochside

    If there hadn’t been a referendum, how long might it have been till there was a majority of MPs? What would have caused the necessary increase from the 6-12 that had been the peak for decades?

    In 2012 I did think calling a referendum might turn out to be premature, but without it, I don’t see that Labour would have lost all those seats in the Central Belt. After the Coalition, the LibDems would have suffered regardless, but there weren’t enough of them. SLab needed to blot their copybook to remove the Westminster/Holyrood split vote, and the referendum achieved that.

  114. Brian Powell says:


    Presumable Oliver left out Wales and Ireland too?

  115. Ahundredthidiot says:

    I just keep getting 21jump street flashbacks….

    ‘Infiltrate the dealers, find the suppliers’ (bangs table and repeats)….except mine goes….

    ‘Vote SNP, get your independence’…..

    Banging table

  116. Lochside says:

    crazycat….but look at where we are now….we have a kid on ‘parliament’ with no power or status which will be shut down on the basis of cost in the new Repeal era approaching. All powers taken back into Westminster’s control. And…as ever..outvoted in The Motherfucker of Parliaments.

    We’ve been out manouvered and disarmed by undemocratic means that should have been challenged from the bent Ref result onwards. Instead…retreat after retreat. What have we got now? docked tails and politically correct bullshit…and our ex leader as one half of a pantomine horse act with fucking David Davies, while Tasmina does the stage management. Oh what a lovely war right enough!

  117. Capella says:

    @ Lochside – the BBC chose to highlight Nicola’s tweet about Clarks labelling girls’ shoes Dolly Babe and boys’ shoes Leader.
    The BBC chose not to highlight Nicola’s tweet condemning race hate crimes and stating there is no equivalence with protesters protecting tolerance.
    Never mind the fact that labelling 50% of the population baby dolls and the other 50% Leaders is sexist and unacceptable. Never mind the fact that the state broadcaster chooses which issue to highlight.
    How come the only thing bothering you is that Alex Salmond chose to invite David Davis onto his show yesterday?

  118. crazycat says:

    @ Lochside

    I know; but for all those years I wondered what on earth would make the crucial difference, and I didn’t have an answer. I still don’t, but I’d rather not just slide into resignation and despair.

  119. heedtracker says:

    Brian Powell says:
    14 August, 2017 at 10:20 pm

    Presumable Oliver left out Wales and Ireland too?

    I dont know, I can’t remember:D

    Wales was part of Roman Britain right enough.

    Its all just so intellectually dishonest though, of a shill like Oliver, to call Roman England, Roman Britain. But to erase such an important part of world history like this, merely for that grand old Britnat cultural domination of Scotland today, is pretty ghastly. Oliver gets really well paid though.

    Ofcourse all British historians do it, its certainly how the English perceive their country, that Scotland was a wild wasteland of nothing much at all.

    But Hadrian’s wall did chop the British isles in half and they had to do it because they just couldnt conquer the now Scottish Celts. And they really did try.

    If they had succeeded in conquering the half of the British isles now known as Scotland, it would probably have changed the course of world history.

    Would there have been a British Empire, in a British isles not conquered by Rome. Almost certainly a thing called England would never have existed, let alone the now world wide Anglo Saxon English language.

    No British Empire would have meant no 20thC world wars, no WW1, no WW2. British colonial genocides in Africa, the Americas and Australia would also have never happened, not without the British Empire.

    You can do counterfactual history all night but an appalling shill like Oliver and ofcourse the BBC, are stealing all our history, not just Scottish history but world history too.

    He really is a walking disgrace/just another BBC gimp, with loadsamoney!

  120. Highland Wifie says:

    Agree totally Capella – listened to some of the discussion re. Dolly Babes this morning on Radio Shortbread but had to switch off as Kaye was just having too much fun continually repeating “Nicola Sturgeon says..”
    She was almost beside herself with joy as she stressed every word of her quote whilst making it clear she didn’t agree. Most of the contributors were trivialising the debate along the lines of ‘there are more important things for our FM to be talking about’. No serious discussion about the creeping sexualisation of our girls at increasingly young age. It was just another stick to beat Nicola with.

  121. Capella says:

    Excellent article by Craig Murray on Culloden. Some small redress against the mountain of lies about our history. Hope it is the first of many.

  122. Footsoldier says:


    Letting off steam and quite right too and I agree with his sentiments. I am a frequent visitor here but an infrequent commentator.

    Far too many people on here wasting their time speaking to the like minded and given the length of some posts and their frequency, it’s clearly a pastime. Far better to use your time productively out in the field as part of some pro indy organisation speaking to those who voted No at the indyref1.

    None of my many “getting on in life” pro-union friends will be converted to Yes by websites. Face to face is the only way in the absence of a pro indy media.

  123. yesindyref2 says:

    Neil Oliver’s a dick. He’s also boring. He’s a boring dick.

  124. Lochside says:

    Capella…the tweet about race hate ok…but if you cant see what Im angry about then fine. I don’t see where we are going as a movement…so I’ll let you get on with it.I’m pig sick of suits gladhanding and back slapping while people are lying about our streets in sleeping bags when we should be one of the most equal and fair countries in the world.

    I despair at people stupid enough for believing they are voting ‘for Corbyn’ in Scotland…when they can’t and he doesn’t appear anywhere on a ballot paper. And hundreds of thousands of selfish bastards voting for Ruth Hitler and her OO orange shirts. i’ve reached the end of pointless bleating in an echo chamber and pounding pavements and trying to convince people who are only interested in celebrities and their new phone.

  125. Velofello says:

    @ Lochside, we have a “kid-on” parliament because the politicians negotiating then trusted their counterparts with respect to the terms. Now the Supreme Court are “not minded” to interpret intent of the terms, they conviently fall back on wording of the terms. Possibly the Supreme Court ruling might just arouse the complacent among us to feel insulted.And to repeat the Arab saying I learned in my travels:-

    Batter to have an Englishman as your enemy than as your friend. As an enemy he will try to bribe you, as a friend he will try to sell you.

  126. Footsoldier says:

    Nicola should know the media will pick up on these trivial asides such as Dolly Babe. Pity she didn’t slip in the opening of the new M8 in the same tweet.

    Every pronouncement no matter how trivial should include a positive on SNP achievement or a dig at the oppo. SNP hierarchy are dreadful at this. Take lessons from the Tories, they always get a plug or a dig in no matter what is being discussed.

    Afraid all this do gooding, fairness, equality, poverty blah blah is doing nothing for independence at all.

  127. Capella says:

    @ Highland Wifie – I’ve just been watching “Hidden Numbers” about the black women in America who worked as mathematicians and programmers on the NASA space programme in the early 60s. Nobody had heard of them until now.

    Racism and sexism galore and, of course, paranoia about “The Russians” who had a man in space first, Yuri Gagarin in 1961.
    The Soviet Union also had a woman in space in 1963, Valentina Tereshova. But the Hollywood film chose not to mention that embarrassing fact.

    It is totally unacceptable that corporations are still trying to label women “baby dolls” whilst boys are “leaders”. Nicola is absolutely right to call them out. Of course, she is subjected to the usual sexist drivel on twitter about wearing high heels.

    BTW the recommendation of the film “Hidden Numbers” came from Roseanna Cunningham.

    Can be seen on no guarantees about the site.

  128. heedtracker says:

    Lochside, if you have done even a tiny amount of what Alex Salmond has for Scotland, Scottish independence, Scottish nation statehood, social democracy, the future of Scotland, you name it…

    Maybe we should get them to fight each other Lochside, Charlottesville style.

  129. Alex Clark says:

    I was at the Alex Salmond show which is purely for charity and admit to being gobsmacked when he introduced his special guest as one David Davies the Brexit secretary.

    It was explained why they became “pals” they both worked hard together in the HOC in order to have Tony Blair indicted for war crimes by taking the UK into war in Iraq.

    I’m not surprised that Alex Salmond could work with a Tory with this particular goal in mind.

    Also as Capella poined out, Nicola Surgeon will express many views on many topics. She doesn’t though get to choose which ones the media will run with.

    OK Nazi’s or shoes? “lets go with the shoes”. Not her fault.

  130. ScottishPsyche says:

    The point about the Neil Oliver documentary was that he was also trying to make a link between Scottish nationalists and white supremacists. There were quite a few comments here at the time about his lack of credibility both as a historian and social and political commentator.

    I am quite aware of his Unionist bias and the comment I made up thread was to point out that he could not get the white supremacist to give the answers he desired. The documentary specifically focussed on the role of Scots and Irish in the slave trade and American Civil War.

    Jeez, I’m not citing Neil Oliver as a source of anything except ridicule.

  131. Lochside says:

    Heedtracker…you’re a great one for exhorting others to ‘do something’ yet all you ever seem to do is talk in riddles about Adam Tompkins…maybe you two should get together and consummate your love hate relationship.

  132. Alex Clark says:

    I was at the Alex Salmond show which is purely for charity and admit to being gobsmacked when he introduced his special guest as one David Davies the Brexit secretary.

    It was explained why they became “pals” they both worked hard together in the HOC in order to have Tony Blair indicted for war crimes by taking the UK into war in Iraq.

    I’m not surprised that Alex Salmond could work with a Tory with this particular goal in mind.

    Also as Capella poined out, Nicola Surgeon will express many views on many topics. She doesn’t though get to choose which ones the media will run with.

    OK race hate or shoes? “lets go with the shoes”. Not her fault.

  133. Alex Clark says:

    Apologies for the double post, thought the word Nazi’s could have been on the filter list. Seems not.

  134. Capella says:

    @ Lochside – I understand the frustration that things are not moving more rapidly. I wish we were already independent. But there was a majority voted NO.
    The way forward is, I believe, to hold firm with the left of centre policies which the majority of the voters support. There are areas such as housing policy which should be moving faster, I agree. But I’m as guilty as any about not turning up to branch meetings and putting forward proposals. That’s not Nicola’s fault.

    In the meantime, websites like WoS provide an invaluable service in spreading the light. It has a huge readership. Keep the flame burning, Stu can’t do it all by himself.

  135. gus1940 says:

    I can’t stand yon unionist lapdog Neil Oliver.

    If you want a Scottish presenter of historical and other factual documentaries give me Professor Iain Robertson – he is excellent, accurate and interesting – he really knows his stuff unlike the wee longhaired ponce with the bag.

  136. colin alexander says:


    14 August, 2017 at 10:05 pm

    14 August, 2017 at 10:27 pm

    Well said. Refreshing to read someone say it how it is, instead of the constant rubbish about how wonderful the SNP are.

    The manifesto pledge was an indyref if Scotland leaves the EU against her will.

    Since it’s become clear that’s happening, the SNP have been desperate to bend over backwards to the UK Govt to avoid delivering an indyref – in a clear attempt to try and avoid their manifesto commitment to deliver an indyref.

    The SNP are all about WM devolution, not about independence.

    People like me are losing / have lost trust in them.

    There are no votes now. There is a window of opportunity for the SNP to win back that support by coming out fighting 100% for independence.

    Just, don’t hold your breath waiting for that.

    Donald Dewar’s gilded cage ( WM devolution) is the SNP’s priority.

  137. Robert Peffers says:

    @Footsoldier says: 14 August, 2017 at 10:53 pm:

    “Far too many people on here wasting their time speaking to the like minded and given the length of some posts and their frequency, it’s clearly a pastime.”

    That exemplifies your attitude, Footsoldier, short-sighted and very wrong.

    Many of the regular commenters on here have been chapping doors, delivering leaflets and keeping branches alive for many decades. They have been working all their adult lives for Scottish independence.

    They are now old, sick and/or disabled and can no longer do what they have been doing for many decades throughout their lives.

    I am now in my 80s, I’m both ill and disabled and mostly housebound, but, Hey! “I’m only doing it as a pastime.”


    Nana Smith is not exactly in her prime now either and is not in the best of health. She works bloody hard furnishing links and her work is greatly appreciated by everyone.

    Smallaxe too is not in the best of health – but Hey! He can always use Wings as a pastime, can’t he?

    Those are just a few of the Wingers here, “talking to the converted”, but if it were not for those of us who slogged it out through the lean years for the independence movement there wouldn’t be an SNP or an independence movement now.

    What is more that, “Talking to the converted”, can, and does, impart information and corrects mistaken concepts that just might help those who are still able to get out on the streets.

  138. heedtracker says:


    Maybe youre a nice guy just sounding off but its pretty clear what I mean. There’s a whole industry at work trying to destroy people like Salmond and the SNP ofcourse. They dont need any help, that’s why we should let them get on with it.

    Like I said though chum, if you’ve done anything approaching Alex Salmond’s extraordinary political life’s achievement, and against the most ghastly tory creep show in the West too, I mean there really is certainly nowhere else in Europe in the grip of so many scumbag tories and their gimp BBC, where was I?

    Oh yes, get off your arse and do something instead of attacking those Scots that do.

    And leave my Slovene girlfriend out of this.

  139. Capella says:

    @ Robert Peffers – well said. Every contribution is valuable. Who knows which aspect of the movement will convince a reluctant NO to change sides. Everyone is doing whatever they can and that is something to celebrate.

  140. Fireproofjim says:

    I have long wondered what I missed concerning Adam Tomkins.
    Please explain the “Slovene girlfriend”.
    I guess I was on holiday or something. Thanks.

  141. Alex Clark says:

    The media will always be selective in what they print regarding the SNP and Independence. They will always choose to print SNP bad.

    They will describe David Davies and Alex Salmond as “pals” without explaining that they worked together in order to try and indict Tony Blair for war crimes. A big omission.

    They will take a tweet about shoes (which was really about gender profiling) from Nicola Sturgeon and put it all over the radio and TV while neglecting to tell you of her objection on the same day to what was happening in Charlottesville with the Nazi demonstration that Trump refuses to condemn.

    We need to get smarter at reading the news, what is omitted is as important as what they are willing to print. You can’t trust them, so if it smells fishy it probably is. Go and look it up for yourselves is as much as you can do really. Never take their reports at face value, especially statistics on health, education or crime.

    The truth is out there, your job is to find it for yourself, then let others know that the press are lying. We do have that power.

  142. heedtracker says:

    Please explain the “Slovene girlfriend”

    Some other time but,

    well it was one of the greatest love stories ever told, and it all began btl, on stinky old Graun’s scotland section, a long long time ago, he was only the gorgeous pouting BetterTogether Ljubljana branch manager, you know what these hot blooded Slovenians are like, today he’s a Scottish tory MSP, came 4th in the general election, treated like future Scottish FM, by massed ranks of beeb gimps in Pacific Quay, its a long long way from Slovenia:D

  143. Capella says:

    One reason the media chooses to ignore Nicola’s condemnation of race hate and support for diversity, is that they are busy labelling the Charlottesville Nazis “white nationalists”.
    Neil Oliver got a whole BBC documentary to smear the Scots as Ku Klux Klan racists.
    That narrative would be hard to sustain if Nicola’s attack on racism was widely known.
    So you won’t hear about it from the state broadcaster. Doesn’t fit the narrative.

  144. Highland Wifie says:

    Yes we do tend to be written out of HIStory. Thanks for the link. Will check it out tomorrow.

  145. Chick McGregor says:

    “Oliver is just another Britnat shill. His last BBC archeology blockbuster, Celts in Europe and Britain completely left out Scotland. He’s not just a shill, he’s an intellectual charlatan but he is loaded though.

    That whole archeology series on Europe’s Celts was extremely BBC creepy, on the Celts. Contemporary England loathes Celtic everything basically but its still very weird watching them use a Scottish shill to make sure we get the point, BBC says Celts were bad, bad in the past, v v bad now.”

    I take your point, after a lifetime study of the subject, that a mainstay of ‘English identity’, at least that embraced by their elite class if not the hoi polloi, is the notion of ‘not Celtic’.

    However, let me briefly give a very potted background.

    When Rome first began on its imperialist project which was to became the prototype for modern imperialism, most of Europe, the Northern 2/3, was ‘Celtic’.

    The term ‘Celtic’ should not be taken to infer anything like a political unit, on the contrary, politically it consisted of, at best, loose and temporary confederations with frequent internecine tribal warfare.

    However, classical contemporary commentary points to pretty much a pan cultural continuum in social practices, religiosity, art and design and linguistically throughout the region.

    Rome’s first attempt to exert imperialist control ended very badly for them, with the Celts under Brennus sacking Rome and holding it to ransom.

    Rome, and hence nascent imperialism, could have been snuffed out completely at that stage, but the Celts love of gold was too great and they relinquished their hold on the city for a suitably large amount of the stuff.

    After that, the Romans began a new strategy. Colleges were set up to teach military leaders about the concepts of divide and conquer, ‘Pax Romana’ and other forms of bribery. The modern basis of imperialism was born.

    To give an example. Celtic tribes were wont, on occasion, to migrate en mass. One example is the Helvetii from approx. Switzerland today. They decided to up sticks and settle in what is now Western France. This was contrary to the imperialist Roman needs at the time so this was ‘corrected’ and the Helvetii were forced back to the Swiss area they came from.

    That episode is well documented in history as related by the classical scribes, if the numbers involved were probably exaggerated.

    But now, to get back to the point somewhat, we come to the less well documented case of the Cimbri. Who they? Well these are the people who occupied the area of Europe from which the Angles-Saxons-Jutes were to come from to Britain several centuries later.

    The Cimbri are described by contemporary classical scribes as sometimes being linguistically ‘Celtic’ and sometimes ‘Germanic’.
    Archeology reveals distinctly ‘Celtic’ artistic sensibilities for the area, like the Gundestrup Bowl, even if the artifacts were often themselves shown to be sourced elsewhere.

    It is also clear, that, like the Helvetii, they attempted a mass migration which was thwarted by the Roman Empire.
    What is not so clear is whether in this instance, the wannabe migrants were returned to their home area or not, but then why wouldn’t they be?

    The point being that, while the incoming Anglos, Saxons and Jutes into the British Isles in the 5th to 7th centuries were undeniably linguistically ‘Germanic’ by then their origins were quite possibly ‘Celtic’.

    So the much vaunted (wanted?) supplantation of British Celts in England by a Germanic people, as promoted by ‘days of Empire’ historians like A. J. P. Talor is not just logistically nonsensical (nothing like supplantation could have or did happen) but may have been by a people who were themselves ‘ethnically’ Celtic in origin.

    In fact, modern haplotype mapping using SNP data has shown a significant hike in so called ‘Celtic markers’ in the Jutland, Schleswig-Holstein area of Europe compared to the immediate surrounding area.

    The existence of an ethnic differential between ‘the English’ and ‘the Celts’ within these islands is looking more and more like wishful thinking by the English academic elite.

  146. Liz g says:

    OT… Not sorry cause it’s ….. educational!
    While we are oan the subject of Slovenian Girlfriends and their meaning!!!
    Anybody fancy tellin me what a Ligger is???
    Did Google if ages a go but there were several possibilities!
    So cause I am pretty sure it’s no a complimentary term, I just kid-on I know !

  147. G. Campbell says:

    Chris Deerin is still unhappy that Yes voters laughed for about a month at his fantasy Britain article from 2014.

    Chris Deerin: The coarse politics of identity drags us all down
    The Herald, 15 August 2017

    Like most violence, large and small, from razor gangs on the streets of Glasgow to 1980s football hooliganism to the Rwandan genocide to the gas chambers of the Second World War, you do not have to dig very hard into what’s happening across the Atlantic to uncover a politics of identity at its root. This vile creed seems baked in to human nature, and has been exploited by chancers, demagogues, and the plain wicked throughout the centuries. Its tenacity mocks the idea that we are any more morally evolved than those who have come before, or that we will ever be so. We may be able, in our Western fastness, to turn away from the immiseration of, say, the North Korean people, or the monarchical score-settling of Tsar Putin, but it’s all one world, and every country displays its own variety of decay. As Albert Einstein put it, “nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race.”

    For some of us, it was an allergy to this tribalism, to the spasmodic urge to divide into us and them, that made a Yes vote in the independence referendum of 2014 utterly unthinkable. This is not to suggest the leaders of the SNP were culpable (although the dreadful Alex Salmond sailed close to the wind), but it was easily found among the wider Yes movement. After writing an article explaining why I’d be voting No, I was subjected to days of online vitriol and called, among other things, a white supremacist, a racist, a cap-doffing lickspittle, a ridiculous cringing joke of a human being, Uncle Tom in a kilt, and a bitter ("Tractor" - Ed). If the intention was to woo me to the cause, I confess the chosen method fell short.

    And here’s the identity-free article he’s referring to.

    Chris Deerin: We Scots have a clear moral duty this year – to stay British
    13 January 2014

    Britain allows us to plug ourselves into a vast network, to be citizens of a globally minded country that has always based much of its military, intellectual and economic success on Scots and their genius. The idea that it is rational or desirable to erect barriers between our nations seems both impractical and unpleasant to me. I find the suggestion that we’re anything other than one people utterly bizarre.

    But when my daughters are grown and ask me how I voted in the great referendum of 2014, and to explain my choice, I won’t say all this. I’ll tell them something else.

    I will tell them that I think the argument for the continued existence of our United Kingdom is first and foremost a moral one: that our country embodies values that are unmatched anywhere else in the world; that it stands as a beacon to those who are struggling their way towards modernity, through civil wars and ethnic tensions, through tyranny towards democracy, through poverty and corruption and the oppression of the spirit; that it spends blood and treasure on protecting the world’s most vulnerable people – on stepping in – because it is the right thing to do. I will tell them that Britain is beautiful.

    I sometimes think we are a victim of our own success, that we have grown complacent about our extraordinary achievements. There is a sort of British reserve or self-deprecation in our refusal to make a fuss over ourselves, our history, our relentless self-invention and adaptability. We should appreciate all of it. Scotland and England buried centuries of enmity to form a union that has been the most enduring, peaceful and prosperous political project in human history. We built institutions that ensured stability as other nations lost themselves in civil war. We ran much of the world – and it is impossible to imagine the British empire without Scots, who accounted for about half the East India Company and a striking number of colonial governors.

    We have built a welfare state to care for the poorest and most vulnerable among us, and worry constantly about whether we are doing enough or getting it right. The key policies of this Conservative-led government are reforms to welfare and education, and even those who disagree with them should concede that the intention is to improve the lot of those who have the least.

  148. yesindyref2 says:

    So Will Self who I’ve never heard of apart from the times he gets punted in the Herald for some odd reason, thinks that Edinburgh’s New Town is antisceptic and denuded.

    He should take a long hard look at London. They can’t even get Big Ben to chime the hour, apart from twice a year.

    He’s another dick.

  149. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Chick McGregor @ 00:54,

    To avoid any misunderstanding (not least by those actively seeking it out), for the benefit of those who are unfamiliar with the term in this context, it might be worthwhile to mention that the “SNP” to which you refer is not somehow an attempt by the dastardly nationalist party to dabble in genetic manipulation and create dodgy alt-history (=grin=), but the well-established technical term “single nucleotide polymorphism”, or “mutation” to we ordinary folk.

  150. Liz g says:

    G.Campbell @ 1.29
    OMG….If this island was ever like that??? Even I would consider staying in the Union…well, for about 5mins I would.
    Then I would mind what was (with the help of some Scots it has to be said) done to those other countries.

    The most successful Union, says this, Chris,is it ?…Em… Successful fur who exactly??

    Not ordinary Scots,we saw none of the benefits from robbing the resources of other countries..nor for that matter did the ordinary people of England.
    In the glory day’s of the Empire,most of the people on this island were dirt poor, aye!….or have I got my history wrong?
    I do wish the Successful-ness of this Union was more clear…in other words …where is it???

    This claim is often made an nothing is ever offered to back it up.
    The MORAL thing to do is to demonstrate the validity of the claim,of, the Success of this Union,a pro bono moment,right enough!
    What say you Chris Deerin ?… let’s have the “”Moral”” case for “”Scotland”” in the Union, for the people living in it now , and no the people who have died in it’s clutches?

  151. Dr Jim says:

    Speaking to the like minded is about support and reinforcement and a darn good thing when surrounded by pretendy Yes supporters constantly talking down that support
    and attempting to undermine the cause of the real Yes movement

    We know the internet is full of “concerned” folk who would like nothing better than to create a loss of faith in the SNP because that would leave us all the choice to vote for, erm, well let us think, who could that be then?

    Hold on while we scratch our collective thick heads and think, coz we’re all that stupid

  152. Ghillie says:

    Dr Jim, I like what you say there 🙂

    ‘Speaking to the like minded is about support and reinforcement’

    I will carry that with me.

    Thank you = )

  153. Ghillie says:

    Hey there Crazycat, credit where credit is due! Well done for being an ALERT READER = )

    MR PEFFERS! Where on Earth did you pick up the notion that I was capable of a ‘best school marmish act’ ?! 🙂

    The very idea, indeed.

    I have been thinking about all you have said.

    Yes, we have been robbed of our feeling easy with the term British.

    I grew up hearing ‘the British Government’, ‘the Great British Empire’, the ‘British Army’.

    As I recall, it wasn’t called ‘the UK Government’ etc.

    I am Scottish, much as I love all of the parts that make up these Bonny Isles =)

    BUT I will ask the next person who tells me they are British what exactly that means to them. Then run a synopsis of your shared knowledge past them =)

    Especially if that is expressed as their reason for withholding Scotland’s Independence.

    Ach well, numpties the lot of them! Have a lovely Tuesday folks! =)

  154. Vestas says:

    @ Fireproofjim 15 August, 2017 at 12:00 am:

    I have long wondered what I missed concerning Adam Tomkins.
    Please explain the “Slovene girlfriend”.
    I guess I was on holiday or something. Thanks.”

    Google “abiesalba” and choose the grauniad result. Then join the dots yourself 😉

  155. Footsoldier says:

    @Robert Peffers

    I did not intend to insult anyone and I will defer to your seniority as you have about 4 or 5 years on me and I too still struggle out despite bad hips.

    I stand by final comment, few seniors No voters will be converted to Yes by websites and there are a lot of older No voters out there. I really would like to see indy before it is too late for me.

    Over and out!

  156. Hamish100 says:

    Mike d – to wish anyone to die of cancer is unacceptable.
    Now do you have something to say that will promote independence?

  157. Golfnut says:

    @ G Campbell,
    It never fails to amaze me how individually blinkered or just plain stupid or just downright dishonest unionists seem to be. They talk of British values, but they don’t recognise the lies and misinformation told in defence of these so called values, they don’t acknowledge their own complicity in theft and murder, not only from the past, but what’s happening now. They seem to be incapable of equating the same xenophobic british nationalism with the white supremacists in America or the alt right everywhere else.
    It takes a special kind of a deluded mindset to be a Britnat.

  158. Simon Curran says:

    Excellent stuff by Alan. I just hope it gets out out of the ‘echo chamber’ to those who voted Labour in the mistaken belief that they can actually deliver for the people of Scotland.
    However popular Corbyn might be (and we may already have reached peak Corbyn time) the PLP itself doesn’t move with him on and SLAB certainly doesn’t. And even if Corbyn was elected how long would it last before England elected another right wing Government that Scotland didn’t want and we’re back to the same old, same old.
    Labour needs Scotland, Scotland doesn’t need Labour.

  159. Sinky says:

    Call Kaye on about Baby Boxes “Is it worth £8
    million ” of your taxes?

    • Phone
    0500 92 95 00
    • Sms
    • Email
    • Facebook
    • Twitter

  160. starlaw says:

    call kaye

    callers mostly lined up last week. Loaded prog. from Unionist
    Propaganda machine

  161. Golfnut says:

    Just another thought,
    Who decided that London became the capital of the uk, was there an act of parliament that confirmed its position. The seat of government is in the City of Westminster, and that by all accounts is separate from London. Huge amounts of our money is spent in the upkeep and improvement of London because its the ‘ capital ‘, but Edinburgh is my Capital City not London.

  162. galamcennalath says:

    In the coming days we will see some actual Brexit plans and negotiating positions from the Tories.

    This morning the msm is full of talk of temporary customs union. I think this statement, found in the Independent sums that up …

    ” Karel De Gucht …. suggested the EU would accept the status quo on customs for several years only its terms.

    They would be Britain abiding by decisions of the European Court of Justice, paying contributions – and not seeking to sign preferential trade deals with third countries. “ [text only]

    Which won’t be how the Tories see their plan!

    Also, Davis is saying there is no progress on the divorce bill, and the Irish aren’t happy with any border restrictions, ever.

    The third immediate area for discussion, citizens’ rights hasn’t been mentioned.

    Has there been any progress at all? It’s not looking good!

    IMO it still looks like the Tories want collapse, but also want to blame that on the EU for not being ‘reasonable’?

  163. heedtracker says:

    Chick McGregor says:
    15 August, 2017 at 12:54 am

    Hi Chick. Great info but my thesis:D
    is much broader than this.

    BBC gimps and shills like Oliver not only duck away from the global impact made by Hadrians Wall and the creation of Scotland, they also love bumming up the Roman Empire too.

    That last whole Celtic Europe thing he did was pretty good on Halstatt Celts but the whole overall presentation was extremely negative about them.

    Pejorative doesn’t come close.

    Oliver’s whole phoney concept of this apparently mysterious pan European warrior culture, way back in the mists of time, who even beheaded their enemies you know, for shame, was all to make the Celts look bad, v v bad.

    Yet compared to the Romans, one of the most savage and barbaric cultures that ever existed…and you get my point?

    Anyway its hardly a surprise that cultural bullies and shills, BBC style, which some of our chums in the south and Pacific Quay ofcourse are, well they are never going to explore the fact that Celts of Scotland didnt just defeat the might of Rome, their triumph over Roman imperialism created England today and changed the course of human history.

    Or what would the world now be like if England had never existed, as it almost nearly didnt?

    Creeps like Neil Oliver are far more than just money grubbing BBC gimps and shills.

  164. jfngw says:


    Ah, your Slovenian girlfriend. She lost her appeal in 2016, the darling of a certain crowd in 2014 turned against her on her return. These online affairs can be fickle.

    I can never forget how she would lecture me on my stupidity in 2014, Madam Cut & Paste was how I remember her so affectionately. I gave up the Guardian/Observer so no longer see her sporadic writings.

  165. Black Joan says:

    Call BBC UK O-Kaye oozing contempt for “cardboard boxes”, £8million of taxpayers’ money etc etc.

    Business as usual.

    Note cardboard box, not baby box.

  166. Black Joan says:

    UK-OKaye working hard there to counter enthusiastic response to baby boxes from Royal College of Midwives.

    RCM thinks Scottish Government done good. Tsk tsk. Voice of authority daring to imply SNPGood. Dismissed briskly. On to the next caller.

    Oh dear. The next caller is enthusiastic too.

  167. Tatu3 says:

    At least the £8 million on baby boxes benefits every baby in Scotland, what about the millions (billions?) spent on Crossrail and HS2, which will benefit (and I personally cannot see any actual benefit) only a few. Know which I’d rather my tax was spent on

  168. jfngw says:

    The voice of the UBC in the last 24 hours.

    M8 completed linking Glasgow & Edinburgh almost 60 years after first UK motorway, but critics say good infrastructure is thorn in Scotland’s side, businesses should be transporting our goods on buses. Never vote Green you are destined to live in poverty if you do.

    Baby-boxes bad, another waste of money, no doubt it could be diverted to compensate London for its garden bridge losses.

    Introduction of free sanitary products championed as Labour initiative despite the SG already running a pilot project in Aberdeen.

    Get your ‘facts’ from the UBC, but check elsewhere for the truth.

  169. heedtracker says:

    jfngw says:
    15 August, 2017 at 9:50 am

    Ofcourse He won the Scottish ref 2014, all the way from Ljubljana, Slovenia, but Abbie’s vote NO or else you Scottish fascists btl Graun stuff, got more and more hysterical as 18th Sept approached.

    Professor Smirky burst into Graun btl life again with the Brexit ref last year, just as enraged again at anyone even considering Leave this time, btl the Graun.

    Ofcourse as branch manager of Better Together Ljubljana, England voting Leave and Scotland voting Remain is as much a threat to his beloved UK as was indyref1. Which is why Abbie was wheeled out to go nuts at England’s Leavers.

    Its partly why he’s quite interesting to watch, btl toryboy online, old Prof Smirky, all the way from Ljubljana. He’s the archetypal political carpetbagger, sees a main chance, goes for it and lets face it, Scottish PR Holyrood is a glory of tory carpetbagger main chancing.

    If he sticks at it, he really will get to the Lords and then, wont the neighbours be sooo jealous.

    Adam Tomkins MSP?Verified account @ProfTomkins Aug 9
    Rampant Rangers 6-0.


    Frank Smith @fwas1903
    Replying to @ProfTomkins
    What is your connection with ‘Rangers’ and why do you support them?

    Adam Tomkins MSP Retweeted Frank Smith
    Well, to start with, they’re my local team. That ok?Adam Tomkins MSP added,

  170. galamcennalath says:

    heedtracker says:

    Celts of Scotland didnt just defeat the might of Rome, their triumph over Roman imperialism created England


    The Battle of Brunanburh in 937 further reinforced the makeup of these isles. English nationalists claim England stood against its surround enemies and their nation was born. An alternative view is say that English expansion was permanently halted at this pivotal battle.

    The English won but were so depleted their plans to conquer their neighbours were abandoned.

    As a result of the Roman experiences and Brunanburh, the emerging England was permanently confined to the southeast 40% of these isles.

    Truth is, many South British believe that the entire island is in fact England, because England and ‘Britain’ are synonymous in their minds. In part, this can be blamed on the twisted version of history which is promoted.

  171. Terence callachan says:

    I believe corbyn is a socialist but he is constrained by the right wing labour politicians that took control of the Labour Party during Blair,s years as leader.
    He cannot speak truthfully because he so often has to say what the right wing of his party want him to say and then on other occasions he is brave and reveals his true position.
    This is why people do not trust him and this is why so often he changes from supporting membership of EU to hard Brexit and soft immigration to hard immigration and Northern Ireland being part of uk to Northern Ireland reunification with Eire and for then against then for trident etc etc etc
    You never know where he stands on important issues because he is always changing and contradicting himself .
    Basically he wants power but can’t get it because of this confusing stance on important issues.
    As a Scot I will never ever vote labour again in my life having voted and been fooled by them for thirty years I feel betrayed they did not ever care about Scotland they only wanted our votes to tip the balance in their favour across uk.
    Scottish independence allows us to choose our government and also allows us to dismiss it and choose afresh, we never get this crucial human right as part of uk

  172. Macart says:

    Public record… etc.

    Mr Corbyn on other folks right to independence and self determination last year.

    “It’s about a political strategy that brings to worldwide recognition the plight of the people of West Papua, forces it onto a political agenda, forces it to the UN, forces an exposure of it and ultimately that allows the people of West Papua to make the choice of the kind of government they want and the kind of society in which they want to live,” he said. “That is a fundamental right.

    Just sayin’ 🙄

  173. heedtracker says:

    galamcennalath says:
    15 August, 2017 at 10:34 am
    heedtracker says:

    Its not just that beeb shills lik Oliver lie to us all about our past, its all far more interesting than what the idiot tries to spin UKOK out of it all.

    Roman conquest of the British isles was a very close run thing indeed. Boudiccan revolt almost wiped the two Roman armies in the south west of England. One half of the Roman army got wiped out, as they returned from slaughtering the whole of Celtic Druidic culture on Anglesey. The other half managed to defeat and slaughter perhaps 200,000 people, probably one of the most catastrophic and violent losses of life ever seen before or since on the British isles, Black plague excluded. But it was all still extremely close.

    Or look at Anglo Saxon king Harold. Had he lost to the Vikings at Stamford Bridge, who essentially controlled at least the upper half of England, weeks before losing to the Normans at Hastings, again, England would probably have never existed, as we know it at least. But Scotland did, does, will always, because our forefathers could not be beaten, by anyone:D

    Once again, creeps like Neil Oliver are much more than cheezy Britnat presenters on the BBC history channels:D

  174. galamcennalath says:

    Further to my comment at 9:23 about the Tories’ Brexit plans.

    Nicola …

    Ms Sturgeon posted an initial reaction to the customs union plan on Twitter, saying: “Seems UK gov is back to its daft ‘have cake and eat it’ approach to Brexit. They should commit to staying in single market and customs union, period.”

    Recurring theme, the Tories just don’t seem to want to negotiate seriously. Why? Think as mince? Quite possibly! Or is it a plan to walk away and blame the EU?

  175. starlaw says:

    Got it wrong with call Kaye this morning,….she did not do to well but was clearly not listening to what some callers were telling her but persisted in her own misinformation.

  176. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Vestas @ 07:16,
    Fireproofjim @ 00:00 (15.Aug.2017):

    O/T The Graun profile is no longer available, it seems, but this contemporary posting from WGD is still available and might help:

  177. liz says:

    @sinky – you should read some of the downright nasty, mean comments about baby boxes.
    ‘You shouldn’t have a baby if you can’t afford it’, ‘I didn’t need etc etc, ‘waste of money, blah, blah

  178. Dan Huil says:

    Westminster britnats seem determined to carry on with their arrogant and ignorant attitude towards the EU negotiations. They really are self-important scum. [I hope Ireland sticks it to them this week]. It means there is going to be a very hard brexit. It means there is going to be another Scottish independence referendum. IMO that referendum must take place well before the next Holyrood election.

  179. Chick McGregor says:


    Yes. The Romans may have perfected Divide Et Impera with their creation of provincialisation and deliberate fomenting of dissent between opponent groups but they were also masters of propaganda.

    Hadrian’s wall is a case in point. An obvious and concrete symbol of the limitations of Rome’s power which had to be countered with spin.

    So we have Roman commentators saying things like the people North of the Wall lived on swamps in tents, there was no cultivation olf the land and the people merely subsisted by hunting and eating berries. The obvious implication being that there was nothing North of the Wall worth having and that the people were beyond help.

    That is, of course, arrant nonsense which flies in the face of all the archeological evidence. Stone and wood structures and dwellings in Scotland existed from the Bronze Age and before. Crannogs, Brochs, Soutterrains etc.

    Likewise, deforestation from the Bronze Age shows that farming had been established long before the Romans arrived in Britain. Dietary analysis shows that throughout that period the staple foods of inland Scots were cereal crops and milk i.e. arable and dairy farming not berries and meat.

    There was a possible diminution in farming in Scotland during the Roman occupation as hinted at by a partial reforestation in the period but that may have simply been due to a direct effect on the Scottish population by Roman activities or may imply that prior to the Roman invasion Scotland had been a net exporter of food to Southern Britain.

    But to get back to what I think is your main point, I agree it is altogether more interesting the willingness of some ‘academics’ to accept anything anti-Sottish.

    Even today you can find supposedly serious academics who choose to regurgitate Roman propaganda, like the spin on Hadrian’s Wall without question despite the archaeological facts being known and available to them.

    That, in many ways, is far more revealing.

  180. yesindyref2 says:

    abiesalba was Jezerna Rosa who used to post on the Herald until David Leask wanted to do an article about her, when she mysteriously disappeared. To be found on the Scotsman I think, forget the handle.

  181. Capella says:

    A Truth and Reconciliation court might be necessary to resolve the depth of loathing now felt for the lying Labour Party.
    The Tories have always been arrogant liars and thieves,. They hardly bother to pretend otherwise.
    But Labour has been a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Pretending to support and represent the “working man” it has stolen resources form the poor to enrich the wealthy. It has prosecuted illegal foreign wars, armed vile dictators, saddled Scotland with nuclear weapons and reactors, cut the welfare state and upheld the wholly undemocratic House of Lords.

    It lures well meaning bur deluded young people into its fold then corrupts them with promises of a ministerial car, a seat on the board of Morgan Stanley and an ermine cloak with £300 a day and all the subsidised Aberdeen Angus you can eat.

    Their wee coterie of expense account journalist shills earn fat fees printing their press releases.


  182. Cadogan Enright says:

    off subject – CAN YOU HELP?

    I have been making a series of complaints to the BBC, escalating to Ofcom, on their practice of running headlines on the catastrophic English NHS on the UK National News, but without reporting that the issue in question is managed well in one or other of the 4 Nations in the UK (usually Scotland).

    E.G. ambulance service, social services, mental health, cancer waiting times, A&E, maternity, and so on and so forth.

    THE LATEST is the waiting lists for routine surgery which has hit all time records in England at over 4 million, and also record levels in N.I.

    I cannot find the corresponding figure for Scotland – which leads me to suspect that there is no issue in Scotland – as if there was it would be widely headlined on BBC Scotland.

    Can anyone help me find the statistic?

    Can anyone help me find this statist

  183. Dorothy Devine says:

    Ah! Jezerna – a name with which to conjure.

    Forever attacking Scottish independence by given us any other b^ggers wars of independence , forever smug , lengthy and WRONG!

    Forever btl in the Herald and Guardian.

    Ah! Jezerna , I wonder where you are now? Lecturing? MSP? 2 jobs? Touting for Tories? BBBC ‘expert”?

  184. Valerie says:

    @ Cadogan

    This seems to be the home of up to date stats. I can look for you, but not sure if there is a direct match to English descriptors.

  185. Valerie says:

    @ liz

    I find I can’t wade around in the filth of Unionists comments for too long these days, it’s pure unadulterated hatred.

    Yesterday, I left a comment on Humza Yousafs Twitter timeline, that I had reported several of the accounts for racist filth. It went quiet.

  186. heedtracker says:

    But to get back to what I think is your main point, I agree it is altogether more interesting the willingness of some ‘academics’ to accept anything anti-Sottish.

    It is purely British propaganda Chick. All part of the cultural domination of England over Scotland. Oliver is merely a British propagandist. Its made Oliver very rich but the loss for Scotland is incalculable, at the hands of these frauds.

    Scotland is covered in archeology, literally littered in it, from all Scottish mountain and hill tops, to our parks and gardens. All of it is almost entirely Scottish. Look at mesolithic or stone age Scotland. In Orkney today, they’re digging far more than anything found at Stonehenge.

    There is some Roman remains here, a bit of Viking here and there, some Norman fiddling but its all Scottish really.

    “Even today you can find supposedly serious academics who choose to regurgitate Roman propaganda”

    Look at the great Mary Beard black Roman Britain tragedy, an esteemed and respected academic and yet she deliberately excludes Scotland completely. At this famous English academic’s hands, least half of the British isles, becomes the whole of Roman Britain and then modern UK. Its what they do to Scotland across the whole of British academia, and its all a giant con.

    Or they really just cannot bring themselves to say out loud, Roman England and Wales too.

    And what it does do ofcourse, is allow outfits like the British Museum to display Scottish history, in the British Museum and call it NON Scottish, because if your British mindset is entirely, Scotland doesn’t exist now, and it didn’t really exist in the great UKOK past this is what you can do.

    These should be on display in Lewis today.

    “What are they?
    These chess pieces form a remarkable group of iconic objects within the world collection of the British Museum. They were probably made in Trondheim, Norway, about AD 1150-1200.”

    Or probably, they were made in Scotland, but that would mean they could get them back, the Scots.

  187. yesindyref2 says:

    @Dorothy Devine
    Yes, “she” used to go into hissy fits and personal insults when DDM, AG or I corrected her or challenged her.

    “She” is probably gone off to try to reunify Yugoslavia. I got the impression she was one of the 2% who voted against Independence for Slovenia.

  188. galamcennalath says:

    liz says:

    downright nasty, mean comments …..‘You shouldn’t have a baby if you can’t afford it’

    Now that would a society I would not wish to be part of!

    So, in the minds of these sick people the future of the human race should only be in the hands of the better off!?

    It’s like, in their minds, they have reduced babies to the same status as a new car, big hoose, fancy clothes. Sickening.

    In any sane country, we need collectively to protect society from such attitudes!

  189. galamcennalath says:

    Valerie says:

    I find I can’t wade around in the filth of Unionists comments for too long these days

    Nor I. I occasionally hold my nose, cover one eye, and peek briefly over the wall just to remind myself of just nasty many of those who oppose democracy and self determination actually are.

    It is grim over there on the dark side. 🙂

    However, I am always left with a clear and positive view …. if that is what their UKOK is all about and they feel that is the best way to defend and promote it, it’s already irrecoverably doomed.

  190. Capella says:

    @ RJS – thx for link to Wee Ginger Dog 2014 post on Jezerna Rosa.
    One of the comments had this interesting link to apparent spook advice on disrupting online forums. Worth a glance!

  191. heedtracker says:

    From Scotch cringers like Neil Oliver to actual Scots, who work for a living.

  192. Alex Clark says:

    @Cadogan Enright

    Cancer Waiting Times

    Chronic Pain Waiting Times

    NHS Waiting Times – 18 Weeks Referral to Treatment ect. ect.

    All can be found here:

  193. Dr Jim says:

    Brexit plan in place now

    Brits say, we’re trying to do the deal Ma we really are but it’s them Ma it’s them they’re being rotten to us Ma

    Euro folk say, What are those Brits on about now we never discussed any of the stuff they say they did

    Well at least we’re all sure that the best possible deal is no deal which is the best possible deal, but maybe not definitely depending on various scenarios if there are other options which there aren’t, unless maybe

    Everybody clear on that? or will we string it out for years to kid the public on that we know what we’re talking about and at the end of the process everybody will be so sick of it and so bored of it they won’t care and will vote Tory all over again because as we all know Joe Public has a goldfish memory and we’ll promise them other stuff by then, so it’s all Goood!

    It’s called grind the public down to a state of total doom laden apathy where they see no hope and just give in out of mental exhaustion and even death would be preferable by this point

    Local Labour councils have been using that tactic forever

    Scotland must not give in to this long lingering death that’s being inflicted on us or we’ll never get out of it

    Repeal the Act of Union as it was never democratically proposed or voted on by the population of Scotland therefore it’s invalid and to hell with referendums
    I wonder if we’d get away with that? why not?

    Sharks and Dolphins are the same colour
    but they’re not the same are they, I see myself as more Dolphiny, don’t mix with sharks they eat you if you turn your back

    Too obvious?

  194. bjsalba says:


    In the absence of Nana I thought folks might enjoy this Irish take on the latest WM babblings on their Brexit plans.

  195. yesindyref2 says:

    That cryptome article is well worth bookmarking. The counter to one is that you have to do your own prepositoning, or negate an opposing preposition by replying. It requires a certain amount of dedication and page refreshing. I did consider a counter of having my own fake accounts, but decided to keep it honest instead.

  196. yesindyref2 says:

    Incidentally, for a list format forum like this, the first few comments and the last few are the most important ones. You get the odd poster goes onto an old thread and attacks the National for instance, or says like “yeah I agree with everyone, the English / OAPs are dying off / rich middle class / divisive divisive shouldn’t get to vote in the Indy Ref”. It’s why 3 or 4 wingers used to do some policing of threads, and the thing to do is either negate the postings, or just indulge in some idle chatter so the offending posting slides UP the page.

  197. Chick McGregor says:


    I suspect the preponderance of stone structures on Orkney and stone Crannogs on other islands is mainly down to the lack of availability of wood due to wind and salt spray.

    When wood is available, it is arguably easier to work and is definitely a better insulator so why use stone?. Of course, wooden structures do not usually survive from ancient times to the present.

    This can lead to a misinterpretation that stone builders were somehow superior to wood builders.

    Lack of readily available wood was also common in the Mediterranean plus the stone there is soft and easy (ish) to work. Result was plenty of stone structures which survived to the present unlike wooden structures in the forested regions of Europe to the north.

    Even large Oppida (cities with many thousands) in Celtic areas having been built of wood have simply disappeared over time but are known due to classical commentry.

    It can lead to a present day distorted view of the level of Celtic civilization which existed generally in Europe.

    Of course, some would have that there never was such a thing as ‘Celtic’ at all. Simon James springs to mind, although he seems to have reigned in a bit on that one in more recent times.

  198. Capella says:

    Request – I can’t find online the quotation attributed to Reynard Heydrich about how to suppress any feeling of pride in one’s own culture and people in oppressed populations. it seems to have disappeared from Google.

    Can anyone link to where this quote is found?

  199. heedtracker says:

    Chick McGregor says:
    15 August, 2017 at 1:16 pm

    I suspect the preponderance of stone structures on Orkney and stone Crannogs on other islands is mainly down to the lack of availability of wood due to wind and salt spray.

    No Chick Orkney, like much of Scotland was heavily wooded and warmer too, during the mesolithic period and into the bronze and iron ages.

    Orkney could very quickly become forested again.

  200. Chick McGregor says:


    The lack of wood on Orkney explanation is not mine. I have come across it several times. Don’t ask where, I can’t remember.

  201. bugsbunny says:


    This may be what you are looking for?


  202. Alex Clark says:


    “Depriving the people of their national consciousness, treat them as a tribe and not a nation, dilute their national pride, do not teach their history, propagate their language as inferior, imply they have a cultural void, emphasize their customs are primitive, and dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly.”

  203. galamcennalath says:

    The Tories’ latest document outlines how the UK could look to negotiate a ‘highly streamlined’ border with the EU, or a new ‘partnership’ with no customs border at all.

    AND … at the same time UK wants trade deals with say the US.

    Are they totally stupid? Or, do they think we are all totally stupid and believe they are serious?

    Under the circumstances the Tories profess to envisage, food products could arrive in the UK from the US after a trade deal. At present many of these items are deemed unfit for human consumption in the EU. Then, with a ‘highly streamlined’ or ‘no customs border’, UK companies could export items to the EU containing banned US products.

    The EU’s rules, regulations, and trade deal exist to ensure market and consumer integrity. So … Nae chance!

    The way a customs union works is the members trust each other to adhere to common standards at their borders with the world beyond. The Brexiteers dream is to have different more relaxed standards than the EU.

    Every informed voice says you are either in the single market, or you not.

    The Tories asking for cake and eat it, again, are just playing games. But with whom?

  204. jfngw says:


    I engaged with the ‘Slovenian’ a few times but it quickly became clear this was a propaganda device rather than a private individual. With the speed and quantity of the posts it looked more like a team rather than an individual.

  205. bugssbunny says:


    Alex got the Quote before I could. On that last list of quotes I would avoid the last one. I just cut and paste, never reading the actual quotes first. The last one looks like the kind of forum the likes of the Glasgow George Sqaure Unionist crowd would adore. What with them being fascist scum and all that. Looks like a poison filled forum the flute players and drum beaters would love. Sorry about that.


  206. Tinto Chiel says:

    Capella: “Deprive the people of their national consciousness, treat them as a tribe and not a nation, dilute their national pride, do not teach their history, propagate their language as inferior, imply they have a cultural void, emphasise their customs are primitive, and dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly.”

  207. Alex Clark says:


    That just shows the extent of the Tories joined up thinking. It’s not joined up at all but all over the place. Buffoons.

    We cannot have trade deals with countries outwith the EU yet expect the EU to treat us exactly as they do now when they themselves have existing trade deals with the RoW.

    The craziness of the UK’s Brexit negotiators just goes from bad to worse.

  208. Tinto Chiel says:

    Sorry, too slow on the draw, Capella.

  209. Capella says:

    @ bugsbunny @ Alex Clark @ Tinto Chiel – many thanks for the links and the quote. There sure are some wacky sites out there! But the chilling message of the quote is worth keeping in mind so thx for finding it.

  210. Alex Clark says:


    The website I linked to from a brief glance also seems to be a hotbed of right wing neo-leberalism of the more respectable variety if there is such a thing.

    I suppose there is not a great demand for quoting Reynard Heydrich on too many mainstream or left wings websites.

  211. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker says:
    15 August, 2017 at 1:34 pm
    Chick McGregor says:
    15 August, 2017 at 1:16 pm

    Orkney could very quickly become forested again.


    I don’t know about ‘very quickly’ but there was a 15 year project (1997-2012) to plant trees in Orkney. Relatively low key but judged a success. Seemed to be small scale, community based projects.

    I saw one such attempt on Hoy where, despite some natural shelter from the wind, the trees were still bush-like in appearance. Not aware of seeing a huge increase in woodland areas on recent visits and Any other wooded areas tended to be a bit straggly.

    The wind seems to be a constant problem.

  212. geeo says:

    What really gets my goat about labour, is not that they are anti independence, that is their view and they are entitled to hold that view, even if it is electorally devastating in Scotland.

    What bursts ma tits is that labour are opposed to DEMOCRACY in Scotland.

    By vowing to deny Scots an electorally mandated independence referendum (ratified by a majority in the Scottish Parliament) labour are no longer DEMOCRATS.

    Which is strange, because whenever brexit is mentioned, all the remain supporting Labour politicians say the same thing…

    “I am opposed to brexit, but as a democrat i accept the will of the electorate”.

    Labour politicians are not democrats, they are hypocrites.

  213. Capella says:

    @ bugsbunny @ Alex Clark @ Tinto Chiel – I was disappointed that the Heydrich quote was not in Wikipedia or some other open online source. So I couldn’t find it and I didn’t know enough wording to search for that.

    I have found lately that many quotes attributable to people like Mussolini, Goebbles et al are disappearing form Wikipedia or doubt is cast on whether they actually said that.

    Two examples are the quote of Mussolini (approx) “Our politics are called Fascist but would more appropriately be called Corporatism”.

    Goebbels: The Big Lie repeated often enough will be believed (or words to that effect).

    Is it historical revisionism or scholarly scrupulosity! Somebody must have said these things.

  214. Robert Graham says:

    Looks like the BBC have given up all pretence of impartiality and are actively promoting the government line on Brexit negotiations,
    This however is easily checked as the EU has and are being totally open about what is really going on,
    We will be presented with two conflicting views of events, No prizes for guessing the most convincing of the two I would believe, this should convince even the most sceptical as to the role of this wing of government known as the BBC.

    Given its past form the BBC are now in danger of giving the game away, will they be careful and cautious or will Tory dogma and arrogance take precedence ? , What’s your answer Mr Fox ? .

  215. Tinto Chiel says:

    Capella: the Heydrich quotation seems almost too good to be true, since it describes the Establishment policy which has created the Scottish Cringe. I’m still trying to find a reference to the original German but no luck yet.

    Stuart McHardy quoted it during an excellent talk he gave in Embra a couple of years back.

  216. Macart says:

    @Robert Graham

    Last press releases on the EC site.

    Next couple should be beauts given the latest releases in UK meeja.

  217. Capella says:

    Tinto Chiel – yes it is striking in it’s relevance. On that website you linked to there is an embed black JPEG with the Heydrich quote and “Project Fear” added!

    Maybe, like propaganda and concentration camps, suppression of self determination in “inferior races” is another technique the Nazis learned from their British cousins.

    Perhaps the translations of the Classics in Eton and Rugby provide the blueprint. The Romans were flatly opposed to conquered people organising anything at all – not even a fire brigade – lest they develop ideas of competence.

  218. Tinto Chiel says:

    Yes, and the Establishment seem to think they are the heirs of the Roman Empire, the poor wee souls.

  219. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    In constitutional terms the Labour Party is not a unionist party but in UK terms it has adopted that position. A very significant section of the Scottish electorate have historic revulsion to Union Jackery and in fact have voted Labour in west central Scotland in part because of it. The Labour party support in Scotland is not unionist by any conviction but it’s leadership does not represent any honest position however. This is its achilles heel but we only damage it by introducing continuously the prospect of a better country that independence offers.
    Do we understand this?

  220. Liz Rannoch says:

    @ Cadogan Enright 12.04

    How about this one? Seems to give stats but by SNHS area.

    @ Others Heydrich quote – just asked hubby – who said this?

    After not much thought he said Margaret Thatcher!

  221. bugsbunny says:

    Capella and others, you might like this. I put that quotation into google search and found this…


  222. Alex Clark says:


    That’s truly frightening, check the logo on the link you posted with this one that might be more familiar. Holy moly!!

  223. Alex Clark says:

    They are identical. Should I laugh? Don’t know really 🙁

  224. Capella says:

    @ bugsbunny – great link to Stuart McHardy site. But even he doesn’t say where he got the Heydrich quote. Maybe we should ask him.

    @ Alex Clark. Creepy isn’t it! I’m joining a few dots here that are maybe not so historic as Heydrich’s day.

    To add to the mix – that Simple Sabotage Field Manual I linked to earlier has these – oh too familiar – instructions:

  225. Alex Clark says:

    After a bit of sleuthing think I can relax, it looks like the original source of that picture on the renewamerica website came from this source:

  226. yesindyref2 says:

    Jesus wept, that sabotage manual is a real keeper 🙁

  227. Capella says:

    @ Alex Clark – well spotted. I noticed from the jpeg info that it was uploaded in September 2015. So plenty time to crib it from the indy campaign. Shrodinger’s Celt posted it in 2013.

    But again – so very relevant!

  228. yesindyref2 says:

    I really love this one:

    Julia Hartley-Brewer?Verified account @JuliaHB1

    My Uber driver just proudly told me that his car has “zero emissions”. I replied “I couldn’t care less.” Now he’s looking sad.

    No idea who she is.

  229. yesindyref2 says:

    Actually, everyone should read that to be able to see if it might be being used against them, and even if not sure, be aware and counter it where possible. For instance:

    (10) To lower morale and with it, production, be pleasant to inefficient workers; give them undeserved promotions. Discriminate against efficient workers; complain unjustly about their work.

    I’ve seen that in the workplace. but suspect the reason is to hide the user’s own incompetence, and marginalise anyone they see as a threat to them.

  230. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Macart @ 14:50,

    What still amazes me (though by now it really shouldn’t) is how actual relocation measures are being enacted by EU organisations (as mentioned in one of your links) and also less publicly by commercial organisations, yet you don’t hear a peep about any of it in the media. Yet during the indyref1 campaign, the Scottish public were continually being beset by wild scare stories about how much supposed damage all the imagined business flittings were going to cause.

    The fake stuff was turned up to 11, yet the real actual ongoing damage happening now is turned down to zero. Yet so many people still depend on these supposed “news” sources…

  231. Capella says:

    @ yesindyre3f2 – yes I think many of us can recognise a few of those sabotage ploys. But, as you say, was it deliberate or just incompetence. Hard to tell. But it’s quite a catalogue of wickedness.
    Perhaps we will all be a bit more alert in future.

  232. yesindyref2 says:

    Could be worth a WOS article or two, modernised and made specific.

    YES2 could certainly do with some “Counter-intelligence”, or some sort of informed counter unit. There’s certainly amateur efforts directed against Indy, and effective Indy blogs, bloggers, posters, campaigners, but possibly also some more organised ones.

    Great work though Capella, perhaps you should be head of SCI (Scottish Counter-Intelligence) …

  233. galamcennalath says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    Re the EU agencies moving out of the UK.

    Presumably the UK citizens who work in those organisations won’t be relocated? If the UK leaves and they aren’t citizens of the EU then I suppose they wouldn’t be applicable for EU jobs.

    So it is not a case of simply jobs moving, it must be a case of UK citizens become redundant. And, the opportunity for a lot of new jobs with the new hosts.

    Clearly just the tip of the Brexit iceberg that UKOKintanic is heading for, but it should be much more news worthy.

  234. starlaw says:

    The Heydrich – sabotage ploy, either came from the Roman or British Empire.
    This was the system used all across the Empire especially in India.

  235. ian says:

    Labour,socialist not as I understand it.Having lived on this planet for 58 ye

  236. jfngw says:

    BBC confirms in its coverage of India/Pakistan independence celebrations that nothing positive can come from self determination. Everyone turns into murderous thugs it would seem.

    Just waiting for the new series ‘Independence: A Warning from History”.

  237. Capella says:

    @ yesindyref2 – unfortunately I can’t take the credit. The link is from a comment by someone called partialtrust on the weegingerdog website post about Jezerna Roza, heedtracker’s Slovene girlfriend.
    I just disappeared doon the rabbit hole.

  238. ian says:

    Sorry don’t know what happened to my post,anyway.Labour, socialism not as I understand it.Having lived for 58 years on this planet and having lived in Glasgow on and of for at least 30 years in that time I experienced their “socialism” first hand.They betrayed a working class city and in all that time the city was held back by their lack of vision and jobs for the boys.If we continue to kid ourselves that people like corbin are going to change this we have only ourselves to blame and get all we deserve.

  239. bugsbunny says:

    Dave McEwan Hill,

    Was Adm Tomkins MSP once an Independence supporter?

    See BBC gone all Yoonie Tunes over an Alex Salmond joke at the fringe. FFS.

  240. Alex Clark says:


    It appears that he once was in favour of an Independent Scotland.

    In 2004 Tomkins spoke at a Scottish Socialist Party rally on Calton Hill in Edinburgh to call for an independent Scottish republic. He also co-authored a book on the subject with Alasdair Gray, but his position on republicanism now seems somewhat unclear.

  241. galamcennalath says:

    That Heydrich quote. It is a perfect description of what a Proud Scot But has been conditioned to believe and has become!

    Proud Scot Buts …

    – have lost their true national consciousness
    – don’t believe Scotland is a nation
    – have little or no national pride for Scotland
    – ignore their history
    – their language is English, often with a ‘received’ accent
    – their culture is English with a tartan veneer
    – they see Scottish customs are inferior
    – and they dismiss Scottish independence outright

    Clearly, Heydrich understood the cringe and its value to the imperial project!

  242. Foonurt says:

    Awfae folk, awe thae labour wans. Ah git ah sicht, ah yoan rid tie.

    Heedtracker – maist plants, including trees/shrubs, huv ah mycorrhizal-fungal symbiont through thurr seiyull.

    Efturr twaw thoosin years, it depletes within thurr seiyull, withoot presence ah trees/shrubs.

    Aye, ye huv wind, jist lik yoan Ooter Hebrides. Bit trees/shrubs wull finit ah sair fecht. Wae nane, urr oannlae ah wee bit, ah yoan mycorrhizal-fungal symbiont through thurr seiyull. Sae thae dee, urr struggle.

  243. Macart says:

    @Robert J Sutherland and yesindyref2

    And that’s the tip of the iceberg. The poor souls inhaling the usual meeja fumes have no idea of the epic omnishambles heading their way.

  244. Clootie says:

    Corbyn is a unionist and his views on democracy and Internationalism crumble when tested by the topic of Scottish Independence.
    It is impossible to hold his stance on Ireland and yet argue against the self determination desires of Scots.
    He is therefore a hypocrit and he cannot be trusted by the Scots. When you factor in the open unionist red Tory views of the Scottish branch office and their open opposition to Corbyn it iwould be madness to vote for the Labour Party.

  245. yesindyref2 says:

    The British Establishment including the BBC are talking up Davis, and the UK will set the terms of Brexit and the transition period, which will of course be according to the UK’s total wishes and according to plan.

    But it’s a totally risky strategy as it’s almost 100% certain the EU-27 don’t share the UK’s sense of self-importance, and the UK establishments’s over-confidence will blow up in its face. Even the identity between “Britain” and “UK” might become a thing of the past, the UK will be the current duff political part, the Britain a thing of longing for past gories glories.

    That sort of thing 🙂

  246. galamcennalath says:

    It’s going to be a hard Brexit!

    Or, is it just prudent preparation?

    ” ….. it is essential that the UK is prepared for all possible outcomes on customs arrangements ….. the UK would treat trade with the EU as it currently treats trade with non-EU countries. Customs duty and import VAT would be due on EU imports. “

  247. yesindyref2 says:

    That position paper is really really stupid. It’s not the EU-27 countries it’s threatening, it’s the businesses within them.

    As a (micro) business, if I see a potential problem with a supplier I look for alternatives, and if and when I find one I might well switch my business to the new one, rather than take the risk of being let down with an important supply at a crucial time from the potentially dodgy one – before the problem actually happens. I have done this.

    Which means that even before Brexit, exports from the UK to the EU are going to drop as demand falls, because prudent EU-27 countries will switch suppliers. They might not even be EU-27 suppliers, with this nonsense going on, even “third countries” (non-EU) which are established are a better bet, as tariffs and procedures, paperwork and electronic, are already in place

    There are always alternative suppliers. It’s a big planet.

  248. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 16:57,

    The article you referenced begins:

    “The United Kingdom has warned EU member states to make contingency plans to mitigate the risk of customs delays…”

    The hoary old “Fog in Channel, continent cut off” view still alive and well, I see. =grin=

  249. Robert Louis says:

    At just what point, will somebody (anybody) step up to the plate and call this brexit nonsense out for the rubbish it really is. Seriously, these Tory and Labour morons are literally dragging the uk into the abyss, from where their will be little chance of return.

    Just a simple example, anybody who has ever shopped with many current high street retailers, or with Amazon, will know that in many, many cases, the goods are despatched from a central European depot somewhere within the EU, and certainly not within the UK. IF the current plans actually are imposed upon Scotland, people will be forced to add import duty to their online purchases.

    This is just one tiny, tiny example – yet the consequences could be horrendous for jobs and supply chains within the UK. This Brexit nonsense has simply got to be stopped. It is absolute madness, with no benefits whatsoever.

    When will the MP’s who supposedly oppose brexit at Westminster develop a spine, and actually start speaking out on this madness, and calling it what it is.

    I hope and pray the SNP will call a referendum BEFORE more irreperable damage is done. The sooner the better. Once brexit actually happens, it will be far, far too late.

  250. yesindyref2 says:

    @boris: “The estates are owned by the 10th Duke of Buccleuch and 11th Duke of Queensberry, who also inherited three earldoms and many other titles together with a fortune in excess of £300million

    I presume the 11th Duke of Queensberry is the descendant of the 2nd Duke, the well-rewarded “Queen’s High Commissioner” who also somewho managed to become the Scottish Parliament’s high commissioner in its totally corrput sell-out negotiations over the Act of Union with England.


  251. Valerie says:

    @ yesindyref2

    I’ve already read that EU countries started seeking new supply chains from last year.

    I wondered if UK businesses have felt it, and decided they have to be more forceful in their views about a cliff edge. There is SO much departure and watering down of the Tory position of no deals, that I’m actually, for the first time wondering if Brexit will happen.

    Farage has been honking on all channels today.

  252. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Louis
    If Independent Scotland could be in the EU, but the rUK out of it, the Border Reivers would return as the Border Smugglers.


    I might move to the Borders …

  253. bugsbunny says:

    I may be wrong Boris, but is that the same Duke of Buccleuch who is a descendant from James Douglas, the 2nd Duke of Queensberry who helped procure the Act of Union with England in 1707?

  254. Alex Clark says:

    Troll Spotting due to be published soon by some Scottish writer or other. Precis:

    “Each individual troll has a single topic to deal with, they do not deviate from that topic and encourage others to join them in discussion of their chosen topic. The goal is deflection from anything relevant to the subject of the article.

    Effectively they are one trick ponies who will repeat themselves on the same subject day after day, week after week and month after month in order to disrupt and/or inflame disagreement”

    The’re all quiet today mind, mibbee a teabreak or a group hug LOL.

  255. yesindyref2 says:

    By a mixture of bribery, blackmail and threats. It’s also why the Scottish Parliament never reconvened before the 1st May. Families were threatened. Strangely the BBC website has some articles on it, as though it’s schizophrenic, though in fairness they probably come from BBC2 documentaries rather than BBC1 state propaganda. A lot of family letters, diaries and archives may have been destroyed in Scotland in the culture exterminations which happened for about 200 years, but the same, my guess, didn’t happen in England nor even from the likes of the said Duke. They’re seeing the light, bit by bit, and “history” is being re-written.

  256. Graf Midgehunter says:

    Chick McGregor

    Your little chat about the Scots and Celts fascinates me whenever I get back north of Hadrians Wall. I love history..!

    I live about 20 min. away from the old Roman/Celtic-Germanic border – the Limes (pron. Lee-mess) which ran on the Continent from the North Sea to the Black Sea.

    The whole area drips with history from just about every tree and stone. There are Roman remains everywhere and a lot of the hills are covered wih Celtic Hill Forts.

    As with the Scots this is as far as the Romans got to before being defeated by the tribes and left to live their own lives behind the Wall. 🙂

    Try these World Heritage Sites galore:

  257. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Alex Clark: “They’re all quiet today mind…”

    No they’re fuckin not.

  258. Alex Clark says:

    fuck off fuck off fuck off!

    That was your last post on Wings, what have I said about repeating yourself Hahahahaha.

  259. Tinto Chiel says:

    “A lot of family letters, diaries and archives may have been destroyed in Scotland in the culture exterminations which happened for about 200 years…..”

    Yes, but never fear, Yesindyref2, at least in recent years we’ve had some real Scottish historians, like Murray Pittock, who is also an expert on Scottish literature. His works on the Jacobites are dynamite and finally allow us to see them as patriots from all over Scotland who have been completely misrepresented by Whiggish writers for 250 years.

    You have to feel sorry for Murray, though, having to rub shoulders at Glesca Uni with Heedtracker’s silly smouldering girlfriend.

    No love lost there, I’ll bet.

  260. colin alexander says:

    SNP manifesto:

    “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum…if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

    “being taken”. Not taken, not left, but being taken. That’s the process of leaving, not having left. That’s NOW. Brexit is negotiating Scotland being taken out of the EU. Brexit date is March 2019( unless all parties agree to extend negotiations).

    Nicola Sturgeon has announced she will give an update on Indyref2 in Autumn 2018.

    Autumn is September to November. The Scottish Parliament would have a maximum of 7 months and a minimum of 3 months from an Autumn 2018 FM announcement of Indyref2 till Brexit day in March 2019 – if the SNP were to fulfil their manifesto commitment to give the Scottish Parliament an indyref while Scotland is being taken out of the EU.

    In the meantime the SNP have repeatedly sought to backtrack on that promise by offering the UK Govt deals that would take Scotland out of the EU against Scotland’s will.

    From the SNP’s own website:

    “Scotland’s Brexit plan: what you need to know
    By Liam Furby, 20/12/16:

    1. At the heart of the proposals is a framework to keep Scotland’s place in the European Single Market.”

    Not the EU.

    It goes on to discuss the negotiation of the return of EU powers following Brexit.

    The SNP had no mandate to attempt to negotiate away Scotland’s place in the EU. Their mandate was a referendum if Scotland is being taken out of the EU.

    Jeremy Corbyn, a man that goes back on his word. Not to be trusted.

    Just like the SNP over the EU and Indyref2.

    I didn’t vote for the SNP in 2016. So, I guess I can’t complain.

    But as a supporter of independence, it just confirms to me that the SNP’s commitment is to ruling Holyrood as WM’s administrators of devolution.

    The SNP is not a party whose priority is achieving independence for Scotland.

  261. yesindyref2 says:

    @Tinto Chiel
    I read Craig Murray’s article, and it was eye-opening. I hope he does a lot more of that, it’s the background YES2 can use. Indy Ref 2 won’t be won on history, but it can make people think, and maybe see the present through new eyes as well.

    The indoctrination over the last 300 and odd years has been appalling.

  262. Alex Clark says:

    On this very thread, very informative and worthwhile contribution?

    Apologies for the language on his/her behalf LOL

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    14 August, 2017 at 6:15 pm


    Fuck off fuck off fuck off.

  263. yesindyref2 says:

    I’m really loving the over-egged Devil’s Advocate postings, to help solidify opinion and re-consolidate YES by presenting the alternatives in an absurd fashion.

    Keep up the good work and welcome to Wings!

  264. Hamish100 says:

    Colin Alexander

    “I didn’t vote for the SNP in 2016. So, I guess I can’t complain.”

    And yet you do.

  265. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Alex

    Curses! You may have won this battle…

  266. galamcennalath says:

    Robert Louis says:

    call this brexit nonsense out for the rubbish it really is

    I confess to feeling guilty. One side me sees a shit awful Brexit as likely to lead to Scottish independence. And that is something I desperately desire for my country. However, that view condemns millions of English to a very uncertain and surely worse off future.

    England’s demise may be Scotland’s salvation, and as I say, that makes me uneasy.

    I rationalise it in part by reminding myself that over half of them voted for far right parties in the 2015 GE and again more than half chose Brexit. They have themselves to blame and should not be allowed to drag us down with them.

  267. Tinto Chiel says:

    “The indoctrination over the last 300 and odd years has been appalling.”

    And once people can see it at work in the past, they can draw their own conclusions about how the MSM and BBC “shape” our news today.

    Once eyes have been opened, there’s no going back to the dark.

  268. Cadogan Enright says:

    @valerie and Alex about midday today


    Complaint will be published eventually on

  269. Dan Huil says:

    @galamcennalath 6:20pm

    You’re a kinder person than me since I couldn’t give a damn about “England’s demise”. Not in the near future at least. Consider everything destructive England has done to the people of Scotland over the centuries. As you say we must not be dragged down to England’s level. When Scotland regains independence we can demonstrate to the people of England how a small independent state can operate successfully. They might even benefit from our example.

  270. yesindyref2 says:

    “Once eyes have been opened, there’s no going back to the dark.”

    Happened to me in 1972, and I’d obviously been aware of it unconciously, the way sport was presented mostly perhaps, as when someone close to me pointed it out, realisation was nearly instant. I also knew a lot about the background of the Cold War, and since that day was able to look at the one-sided way the UK Gov and the media including the BBC presented it with – criticism. Even took to listening to “BBC World Service”.

    Some service.

  271. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    galamcennalath @ 18:20,

    Another way of looking at it is that a majority in E+W had the balls to vote for what they believe in and are determined to make it happen, come what may.

    We can sympathise with the substantial majority there who have more internationalist leanings, and believe that they will soon enough be proven right, but all the same, they are grown-ups who have taken a decision as a country and are going to see it through.

    That has a certain admirability about it. If only we had been the same in 2014. We would be free of all this ongoing crap.

  272. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    me @ 18:41,

    Oops, ultra-obvious error. Substitute “substantial minority” for “substantial majority”…

  273. louis.b.argyll says:

    That’s right folks, once let in, the light of truth is absorbed into our ‘normal’/ ‘knowledge’ -regardless which philosophy etc.

    Live in denial if you want…but why would you, never mind should you.

    Take your love of tradition to the grave, sure, on yersel, just don’t create an unnatural society for those who follow, because of that tradition.

  274. yesindyref2 says:

    It’s the reason I suggest picking a distorted item of news that has nothing to do with Indy, the SNP or even Scotland, and highlighting it to people so they have to acknowledge how the media distorts the news. It could be about Rangers or Neil Lennon, the price of food with “inflation at 3% per year” when prices of staples are going up 50% in supermarkets, anything which is close to whoever we’re talking to. Brexit is a good one, but maybe too politically un-neutral for Indy supporters.

    Then with any luck they’ll mistrust ALL news and find out for themselves.

  275. Not Convinced says:

    Clootie said on 15 August, 2017 at 4:55 pm
    Corbyn is a unionist and his views on democracy and Internationalism crumble when tested by the topic of Scottish Independence. It is impossible to hold his stance on Ireland and yet argue against the self determination desires of Scots.

    Indeed! AIUI he opposes independence for Scotland on the grounds that he wants to maintain the territorial integrity of the UK? Now it’s not a viewpoint I subscribe to, but he has a viewpoint and a reason for it so fair enough. However, as you say, if he holds to that viewpoint then logically he also opposes Northern Ireland leaving the UK and for precisely the same reason!

    Presumably he is also opposed to the existence of the Republic of Ireland and doesn’t agree with the Anglo-Irish Treaty of 1921?

  276. colin alexander says:

    Said Hamish 100:

    ““I didn’t vote for the SNP in 2016. So, I guess I can’t complain.”

    And yet you do.”

    Aye, that’s right. Because, though I personally never gave the Scot Govt any mandate in 2016, I voted Remain. I have voted SNP many times for their Independence in EU policy ( even though that’s a contradiction in itself).

    So, I’m not pleased they have taken it upon themselves to negotiate with the UK Govt, to agree with the UK Govt, that the UK Govt can take Scotland out of the EU with Scot Govt approval, following a Remain vote, when they clearly do not have a mandate to do that.

    Their democratic mandate is to offer an indyref while Scotland is being taken out of the EU.

    The SNP have no mandate to approve Scotland leaving the EU following a Remain vote.

    Popular sovereignty is not the Scottish Govt’s; it is ours.

    Scotland’s people self-determined EU membership.

    The SNP are breaching the people of Scotland’s right to
    self-determination by negotiating Brexit.

  277. Tinto Chiel says:

    “Then with any luck they’ll mistrust ALL news and find out for themselves.”

    Yes, I think those wee conversations at the bus stop or down the shops, quite oblique to obvious party politics, can be effective at nudging previous No voters to a realisation of the dire nature of our media. As you say, it could be almost any news item as a trigger.

    I sometimes think all-badged-up conventional canvassing can make our potential targets all defensive and closed-off to our message. And they don’t like you invading their territory/doorstep.

    Post-modern nudge, nudge, wink, wink may be the way furrit 😛 .

  278. Sunniva says:

    Brexit was never about Brexit. It was about anything but the EU. It was a blind stupid protest vote by left behind people who were manipulated by Rupert Murdoch into voting Leave against their own better interests, scapegoating the EU for 40 years of the effects of Tory policies by their own British governments. Nothing admirable about stupidity.

  279. yesindyref2 says:

    That’s the spirit 😎

  280. scottieDog says:

    I sit with my head in my hands when my mum remarks that Jacob rees mog would make a fine PM.
    This is someone who has carers in for free every day of the week.

  281. yesindyref2 says:

    @Tinto Chiel
    Yes, their guard’s down, you’re in their personal space, and they’re kind of – trapped.

  282. colin alexander says:

    In one breath the SNP can’t justify Indyref2 on the basis of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the sovereign will of the majority of the people in Scotland who voted Remain,

    Then adopt that same policy of approving an EU exit – if the UK Govt would do the Scot Govt a wee deal on the side.

    The sovereign will of the electorate of Scotland should be
    non-negotiable. Scotland voted for EU membership.

    Manifesto pledges and the democratic will of the people should be respected no matter which party is in power either at WM or Holyrood.

    Or do special rules apply when it’s the SNP?

  283. yesindyref2 says:

    Here’s one. You’re at something and it’s sunny and someone says

    “Fine day”.
    “Yes it’s great, and they forecast rain and gales. Mind you, as usual that was for London”.
    “They don’t realise that on the west coast we have our own microclimate”.
    “Yes, they’re so ignorant of Scotland. They’re even saying the NHS is in desperate trouble, whereas with our SNHS being totally different, thanks to our amazing NHS staff, Scotland’s hospital A&E performance has been the best in the UK for 27 months.”

    Job done, a little seed.

  284. Robert Peffers says:

    Ach! Weel!

    I’ll jist awa back tae playin ma computer game.

    Nae pint in readin ony ither bits o Wings.

    This hale bliddy blog hae’s mair SNPBAAD bleaters oan it the day than the hale day ootpit o the BBC propaganda wireless and picturkist pit thegither.

  285. colin alexander says:

    Ach, it’s a sair fecht when naebody on Wings, and even Robert Peffers, has no rebuttal to my criticism of the SNP’s handling of Brexit.

  286. mike d says:

    Hamish100. 8.18am. I apologise for that tasteless remark,and said it in the heat of anger. Profound apologies once again.

  287. K1 says:

    It’s not that we don’t have a rebuttal Colin, it’s that we genuinely don’t give a fuck what you write and scroll past. Nothing personal mind, just taking your advice 🙂

  288. Robert Peffers says:

    Nearly forgot to mention the BBC item that David Davis is defending the Westminster Parliament’s decision to silence the chimes of Big Ben, (the bell in the Westminster clock tower).

    Isn’t it a great pity Big Ben cannot silence the, just as loud, propaganda that the Westminster Parliamentarians blast at us and their broadcasters repeat at us 24/7/365?

    Mind you I suppose we could always try kidnapping the ravens from the tower of London!

  289. Rock says:


    “I despair at people stupid enough for believing they are voting ‘for Corbyn’ in Scotland”

    The too selfish, too British Nationalist and too stupid remain a majority.

    While Nicola was busy flogging a dead horse – a separate deal for Scotland which was never going to happen – this majority consolidated itself.

    SNP support fell from 50% to 37%.

    We are as far from independence as ever.

    The too stupid form about 5-10% of the unionist majority. It is this group which needs to be targeted.

    But our worst enemies are the clueless pompous armchair pundits posting here who are incapable of seeing things as they are.

    They are hell bent on wasting time and resources on trying to convince the most hardcore unionists while ignoring those who are much more likely to be won over.

  290. K1 says:

    Oh and it’s ‘naebdy’, get yer handler tae sort yer lousy Scots diction oot will ye no.

  291. bjsalba says:



    And they have not moved the EU agencies – or Euro-clearing – yet.

    It ain’t tip of the iceberg more like the first pebble in a landslide.

  292. Rock says:


    “Heedtracker…you’re a great one for exhorting others to ‘do something’ yet all you ever seem to do is talk in riddles about Adam Tompkins…maybe you two should get together and consummate your love hate relationship.”

    Centuries of reading The Guardian has reduced him to this sorry state.

    I don’t think he has posted a single coherent, meaningful post here, but given the volume of his posts, I might have missed it.

  293. jfngw says:

    The channel that brought you, pre-watershed, Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, DLT and many other plus the wit of Jim Davidson is shocked at an Alex Salmond joke. So much so that it deserved more air time than the, to put the BBC emphasis, cardboard baby boxes.

    This joke required an interview with the first minister. Having now seen the joke, it’s not that funny actually, it hardly merited being reported never mind the time devoted to it.

    Rep Scot outlook, free baby boxes bad (SNP initiative), free sanitary products good (SNP initiative but Labour in Rep Scot reporting).

  294. yesindyref2 says:

    Oh dear, the rock has crawled out from under the slug.

  295. colin alexander says:


    Jist tae please ye. Full, or should that be fu’ Glaswegian dialect :

    Dis naebdy hiv a rebuttal ae ma posts aboot the SNP manifesto oan Brexit?

    Naebdy bothered wan wie or another aboot the SNP mibbie betraying thur manifesto, bit defnitely betrayin Scotland’s democratic mandate tae remain in the EU and hiv an indyref while Scotland is bein taken oot the EU against hur will.

  296. yesindyref2 says:

    Shocking, simply shocking. You should pass a bill for a referendum.

    Oh, sorry, I forgot.

  297. K1 says:

    Okay okay…

    Dis naebdy huv a rebuttal ‘o ma posts aboot the SNP manifesto oan Brexit?

    Naebdy boathurd wan way or t’other aboot the SNP mibbe betrayin’ thur manifesto, but definitely betrayin’ Scoaltin’s democratic mandate tae remain in the EU and huv an indyref whilst Scoatlin is bein’ taken oot the EU against her will.


    Naw, cause abdy’s fed up readin’ yer same old shite that ye repeat endlessly.

    Now awa dae somethin’ useful wi yer time laddie and gies peace…always. 🙂

  298. Capella says:

    Still hunting for the Heydrich source but no luck. Had a look at Frantz Fanon “Wretched of the Earth” about colonialism as a likely source, but not able to search the book. An interesting speech on getting rid of the colonial mind-set here:

    However, WelshnotBritish searched for it in 2013 and drew a blank. But the results of his/her research are interesting:

  299. HandandShrimp says:

    Seems to be an awful lot of torn faces over Salmond’s Festival show success and equally torn faces over baby boxes. In the case of the latter I think rival politicians are convinced the SNP are doing something that might turn out to be popular….deliberately.

    In the case of the former I suggest that some of the greeting faced churnalists try putting on a one man show during the Festival and show us how it should be done.

  300. Alex Clark says:


    The likes of you and I, and others that have read Wings for a while are totally immune to the SNP bad bullshit of the MSM. Slowly but surely the Scottish public in general are becoming immune also due to constant exposure.

    One can only take so much bullshit before saying “haud oan a minute”? That’s where we are now, an overdose of bullshit will surely stop you from partaking ever again and the Scots have been force fed more bullshit propaganda in the last five years than they could possibly ingest in twenty.

  301. Capella says:

    Nicola Sturgeon deftly dismisses the faux shock over Alex Salmond’s joke. Is there no end to this politician’s skill?

  302. Alex Clark says:

    Trump must surely be on the way out now. Check this performance, totally beyond belief for a US president to carry on like this.

  303. Tinto Chiel says:

    Interesting stuff on the quote, Capella.

    Beginning to wonder if it was all too “good” to be true.

    But the Czechs seem quite happy with their lot now, and Prague is a great city.

    Of course, they don’t have VichyVision…..

  304. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Would the Daily Heil possibly be joining in the latest faux outrage against Salmond? You know, the paper that had the “legs-it” front page when the FM and PM met up? Was that even the point of the new (alleged) joke?

    Lately we had the eagerly-outraged left, now it seems to be the turn of the eagerly-outraged right again.

    Ho hum.

  305. Capella says:

    @ Tinto Chiel – good work there by WelshnotBritish but annoying that the source can’t be identified. The historian Callum MacDonald might have known but sadly the link is to his obituary in the Independent (apt).
    Will carry on at first light!

  306. yesindyref2 says:

    Sturgeon: “Occasionally Alex is not as funny as he thinks he is”

    Perfect. Now it just makes anyone who continues look stupid.

  307. Lizg says:

    K1 @ 9.17
    Well said….and in the most Peaceful way too….as Always

  308. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Here, something I noticed about that friends-of-Trump rally – there seemed to be protesters carrying assault rifles around with them, proper assault rifles. How the fuck did they manage that?

  309. beemer says:

    Keep your eye on the big prize

  310. colin alexander says:

    Ach well, Wingers. Enjoy Brexit Scotland and the Great WM devolution power grab, courtesy of the compliant SNP (Puppet) Govt and their Tory masters at WM.

  311. Highland Wifie says:

    Thoroughly enjoyed Alex Salmond’s Fringe show today.
    Surprise guest was John Bercow who said that, though he felt it wasn’t appropriate to make comment on the situation in Scotland, if you believe passionately in something you should never give up and in the words of Churchill you should ‘keep buggering on.’ Good guy I decided (Bercow not Churchill!)
    It was good to see Michelle Thomson in the audience too.

  312. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    If you have a Kindle or similar (I don’t) would it be worth looking at this?:

    or this (which you’ve referred to, I think – I can’t find your post to check), also available for e-reader?:

    The latter has a “look inside”, which leads to the Kindle version, but only includes the first few pages, which do not refer to the quotation.

    There are other titles available about the subject, but only as proper books.

  313. TheWasp says:

    I followed a link on the Rev’s Twitter which took me to Colonel tRuthlesses feed. I saw few pictures showing that Damian Greene was in Alloa, which nobody I’ve spoken to knew about, on the 11th, along with our shiny new MP, the boy Luke. They were pictured outside his “office”, actually where I used to work, which was empty when I passed last week. They were also pictured pouring over plans on a gap site which has been empty for years with no sign of anything being built on it in the near future. As they used to say paper takes on anything, but this sham looks like smoke and mirrors to boost the faithful

  314. yesindyref2 says:

    @Highland Wifie
    He’s obviously doing a great job Alex is. Goodwill.

    Hearts and minds, hearts and minds!

  315. crazycat says:

    @ Reluctant Nationalist

    Virginia is an “open carry” state:

    The table about halfway down that article says this:

    Open carry is generally allowed without a permit for people 18 years of age and older. The following cities and counties have exceptions that disallow the open carry of “assault weapons” (any firearm that is equipped with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or is designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock) or shotguns equipped with a magazine that holds more than 7 rounds: the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, and Virginia Beach and in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, and Prince William. These restrictions do not apply to valid concealed carry permit holders. Stated differently, you may open carry an assault weapon/shotgun with more than 7 rounds with a permit in the aforementioned locations, but do not need a permit to do so in any other locality in Virginia.

    You will notice that Charlottesville is not one of the cities with restrictions on the open carry of “assault weapons”.

  316. Alex Clark says:

    @Highland Wifie

    Thanks for that, I wish i was lucky enough to go everyday. I got David Davis on the first day, yesterday was Elaine C Smith who my wife would have preferred now today John Bercow who must have been interesting.

    The British Nationalists must be beelin 🙂

  317. heedtracker says:

    Graf Midgehunter says:
    15 August, 2017 at 5:41 pm
    Chick McGregor

    Hadrian’s Wall really is incredible. Its maybe been used as a local quarry and then rebuilt again, for Victorian tourism but the earthworks are breathtaking. Its like they’ve just left but they were there a long time.

    It looks like the Romans did succeed in defeating Celts right up to Strathclyde about 25 years later, where they built the Antonine Wall but they were forced out and back again to the wall. There is a string of Roman army marching camps that loop around the Highlands, coming close to Aberdeen and Stonehaven, ending up with a fort at Inverness but they may have been used in later invasion attempts.

    If youre into it, they are really worth seeing as they seem to follow the ancient Celtic roads that linked the Lowlands with the north, well not follow, they were deliberately built on these roads and they are huge too. Some have massive stone works that look half finished.

    They are quite tricky to find but when you do get to them, you get an idea of how really big Iron age military invasions worked, forts and camps a day’s march apart, most if not all within view of the North Sea and the probable Roman navy.

    Scottish Roman archeology is completely different from the English in all kinds of ways. And then there’s this,

  318. Alex Clark says:

    President Trump is on the way out, can’t see him surviving the Nazi Charlottesville carry on for much more than a few months.

  319. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Cheers crazycat. I kind of knew some places had looser restrictions, but I never knew that a) some allow open-carry of assault rifles, or b) you can take them to a rally where police are somehow meant to be the ones who keep control. Intense.

  320. Dan Huil says:

    Is Westminster about to accept a de facto united Ireland with its new proposals on unique customs non-border between north and south Ireland?

    If so it’s the first step towards the end of the so-called united kingdom.

    Wonder what the DUP thinks.

    Good night.

  321. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – the book by Callum MacDonald is the most likely source of the quote. Will have a look tomorrow once I summon up the will to read about such a nasty piece of work as Reinhard Heydrich. Thx for the links.

    Talking of which – can’t believe how bad things are in the US now. “Trump – A Study in Tyranny”.

  322. orri says:

    If you rephrase the Alex Salmond “joke” so it’s you saying it about him it miraculously becomes a barbed reference to his lack of sexual prowess and inability to make women climax it being unlikely that it’s about them all being frigid. A bit shit and pantomime but not really sexist.

  323. Still Positive says:

    Have been away at Broughty Ferry since Monday lunchtime to see one of my grand-daughters staring school, now yesterday and have only been on-line since just before 6 (Now yesterday) have been catching up with posts. Some very interesting.

  324. Ghillie says:

    Oh! Is that you away Colin?

    Cherriebye then.

    Good luck and best wishes pet =)

  325. Chick McGregor says:

    Heedy et al

    One of the more amusing things is whenever Tacitus’s reported speech by Calgacus is mentioned.

    The vein-popping paroxysms displayed by the U-crowd and the unified chorus of “Tacitus made it up!” is a comedic sight to behold.

    Of course, they have absolutely no more idea whether he made it up or not than we do.

    However, those familiar with it cannot but conclude that the negative way the Roman Empire is portrayed in it must be a very unlikely depiction of choice by a Roman propagandist. Especially one with the added pressure of reporting on his father-in-laws achievements.

    Example extract:

    “If their enemies have wealth they want it; if they’re poor, it makes no difference, they still hunger for power. Nowhere, east or west, is enough for them – they’re the only ones who lust after everything alike, rich or poor. Abduction, massacre, plunder they misname ‘law and order’. Where they make a desert they call it ‘peace’.”

  326. Still Positive says:

    Me @t2.39

    Starting school NOT staring school – although she may do that!

    She is going back today! And she wasn’t first out.

  327. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    A long time ago I saw a film (not in the cinema, so I suppose it must have been on television) about the demise of RH. It was absolutely tragic; the men who killed him were in a cellar which was being filled up with water to force them to surrender. I assume that was accurate. Then there was Lidice.

    Decades of peace since are clearly a good thing, but they do allow people to forget, or even deny, what came before.

  328. mr thms says:

    colin alexander @ 11:19 pm

    “Ach well, Wingers. Enjoy Brexit Scotland and the Great WM devolution power grab, courtesy of the compliant SNP (Puppet) Govt and their Tory masters at WM.”

    I have a different opinion. Scotland does not have the power to make treaties. Perhaps that will come in the Scotland Act 2020. What we do have is the Scotland Act 2016. I’ve read it introduces ‘shared power’ for the first time. Which begs the question ‘What shared power?’. The only ‘power’ that fits the bill are the powers coming back from the EU, and that begs another question, ‘How did the Smith Commission know the UK would vote to leave the EU?’. I believe Article 50 is and always has been about the internal enlargement of the EU, and nothing the UK, EU or the Scottish Government has said or done thus far has changed my opinion, only enhanced it.

  329. Alex Clark says:

    @Still Positive

    You were in the Ferry! Guessing it was Forthill Primary you Granddaughter was going to.

    Shame I missed you then, should have let me know 🙂

  330. Valerie says:

    Was at Yes Cumbernauld tonight. They organised for The National road show with Paul Kavanagh and Ginger of course. Ginger just nonchalantly strolled around the room, visiting everyone.

    Gallium Baird, Editor of The National was there, and we had a wee chat. Lovely young man, very committed, and Paul was excellent, of course.

    Almost 100 folk there.

    Going to see my hero in his show on Thursday. Good to be among Indy folk, gave me a lift tonight.

  331. Alex Clark says:


    Never give up and never give in. I don’t mind living in a “bubble”.

    It means I’m with friends.

  332. K1 says:

    Aye at least it’s no soapy bubble we’re in*

    *coat awaits ma departure

  333. crazycat says:

    @ Capella
    I’ve now found a way of looking at the MacDonald book:

    (hope that works; I’ve not used tinyURL before! I’d googled “dismiss independence as a barbaric anomaly”, so you can try that if it doesn’t)

    It looks as if the “quotation” may be assembled from several different sentences, which would explain why it cannot be sourced as a whole.

    For instance:

    A second line of attack was mounted through an SS racial official imported by Heydrich: ‘In order to convince the Czechs…that they must be considered merely as a tribe and not as a nation

    and a page or two later, referring to a 19th century German concert hall in Prague, which had been converted into the Czech Chamber of Deputies, until RH reopened it with its original function:

    As he remarked cuttingly at the reopening ceremony: ‘The organ console at which Anton Bruckner…once sat…[was] smashed with an axe to make way for a bust of Masaryk.’ This one sentence asserted German artistic superiority and dismissed Czech independence as a barbaric anomaly.

    (ellipses original, my bold)

  334. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    The link does work, fortunately.

    As well as being separate sentences in the book, the first set of words I’ve emboldened are a direct quote (not clear whether it’s from RH, the SS official, or someone else) and the second set are MacDonald’s own thoughts.

  335. Alex Clark says:


    One smart lady though I’ve always known that. Glad your on our side 🙂

  336. crazycat says:

    @ Alex

    Thank you. I’m glad you’re on my side too.

    Although generally I’m relieved to have escaped my last job, there are times when I miss doing research, so things like this are entertainment! (Keeping my hand in, too.)

  337. Lizg says:

    Valerie @ 1.29
    Hey Valerie,I was at Yes Cumbernauld too.
    Was a really good night wasn’t it.
    While of course Ginger was the real star,both of them did very well,and were well received.
    We could have done with another couple of hours,it went so fast.

  338. Breeks says:

    Reluctant Nationalist says:
    15 August, 2017 at 11:57 pm

    When I was in the US, I stayed with a host who took us to a quarry to shoot some rounds with his magnum pistol. It was a random decision, off the cuff and hadn’t been planned, so I was quite surprised when he also pulled a semi automatic carbine from under the seat of his van. I don’t remember the caliber, but it was high velocity. Not military spec, but a bizarre “what on earth is this designed to do” curiosity, and why would you carry it under the seat.

    The round was too small for serious hunting, and the semi automatic function was a bit weird. It was a full-on battlefield weapon, but with a girlie small caliber round without military stopping power.struck me it was neither one thing or another, but a kind of hybrid weapon for Rambo types to pose about with, but exercise a little restraint in using small caliber ammunition. Don’t get me wrong, it was quite lethal, but no elephant gun.

    He was military, in the Navy, and I asked how easy it was to get hold of an assault rifle, and leave it kicking around under a seat in your van. He said there were some some restrictions, but easily got around. You could for example do a very simple correspondence course to call yourself a weapons instructor, and then be free to legitimately buy anything from full spec military assault or sniper fifes through to grenade launchers and machine guns.

    Kinda scary, especially when the fella later on revealed he had quite a short fuse and could be petty and childish. Quite challenging to see the guy really blowing his top because somebody accidentally tripped over the guy rope on his tent, and while knowing he had an assault rifle and 44 Magnum in his van. Scary dude.

    This was 1986 near Boston. I didn’t keep in touch.

  339. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    @ Breeks

    Haha. Wow.

    I remember watching some youtube video a while back where some guy fired off a full auto AKS-74U, which is a crazy little carbine, into a pond like it was nothing special, just another day in ‘murica *deliverance banjo music*. The thing heated up so much I was surprised it didn’t blow up. The guy was…well, g’dayum .

    I found it –

  340. Dorothy Devine says:

    Regarding guns in the US , my nieces husband could walk into a hotel room specially hired by gun merchants, in Alabama and buy a gun, any gun or so he reckoned.

    I liked the Michael Moore film where banks were giving away a free rifle if you opened an account – presumably they had the sense to hang on to the bullets , or maybe not.

    Strange country , where guns are available to most if not all , and they watch their children die at the hands of classmates and do nothing about it – the gun lobby must be very , very strong.

  341. Hamish100 says:


    Gush gush gush. BBC south on the tele.The Queen Betsy aircraft carrier arrives at Portsmouth . England is great once again. Millions spent on dredging the harbour to allow it in . No aircraft mind and it looks like the whole population of Faslane , Helensburgh are on deck . Nice wee earner for Portsmouth without the risk of nuclear bombs

    Rule inglatera, don’t mess with us.

    Just a thought couldn’t just one iceberg or Exocet do a bit of damage. Pity there ain’t enough other ships going spare.

  342. Chick McGregor says:

    Still remember the shock when shopping in K-Mart in SLC to see what I first thought was a bubble-pack of batteries dangling on a hook but then noticed they were bullets.

    On another occasion an American engineer I was working on a joint project with, who BTW gave everyone he worked with a bullet key-ring, told me he had a lucrative sideline in importing Uzis from Israel. Their direct import was banned, but he was able to import un-assembled kits legally which customers could then simply assemble themselves.

  343. yesindyref2 says:

    Sheesh, the BBC can’t even get the QE right. The guy said she can carry a maximum of 36 jets. Not correct, it’s over 50 in surge conditions, if no rotating wing (or a handful) were aboard.

    A good few months of trials left to go. First deployment in 2020 I think.

  344. yesindyref2 says:

    QE has I think 3 Phalanx CIWS which would shoot down the subsonic Exocet with no problem.

  345. Smallaxe says:

    A former Tory adviser breaks ranks and dishes the dirt on senior Conservative links to the far right [TWEETS];

  346. Macart says:


    They’re a bit rubbish with store bought drones though. 😀

    Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    So finally got there, eh? A few more months of trials, as you say, and then ready for… deployment or mothballing?

    Securing suitable aircraft is becoming a bit of a pressing issue at this point, not to mention, in current isolationist politics, a reason for being. Mr Hammond and Mr Fallon need to get their calculators out, not to mention having a good chinwag on policy at this point.

  347. Hamish100 says:

    Indy 2, 3 Phalanx CIWS to shoot down an Exocet. Ahhh they have bullies!

    What if there is 4 missiles or 5 or a torpedo. Ships can sink — even big ones.

    Indy2 are your ex military? Surely you rember the Falklands.

  348. Hamish100 says:

    Bullets. Oh for an edit function.

  349. Jock McDonnell says:

    Interesting discussion on 1947 last night on Newsnight.
    One female panellist eventually said that the focus should be on 70 years of Independence, not the British notion of ‘partition’ – which is what the British obsess over.
    Kirsty couldn’t shut her down fast enough for holding views incompatible with unionist group-think.

  350. heraldnomore says:

    Borders. Remind me again how the discussion went on the same subject a few years ago?

  351. Still Positive says:

    Alex Clark @ 1.15

    Yes, it is. Sorry, didn’t think to mention it in advance.

  352. Brian Powell says:

    Hamish 100

    The new aircraft carriers have a defence system that can deal with missiles traveling at 2500 mph. The Russians have new missiles with 3,500 to 4000 mph speed.

    The carriers would be sunk without too much trouble.

  353. Fireproofjim says:

    You are right.
    The two Czech soldiers who killed Reinhardt were trapped in the cellar of a church, whose pastor was sheltering them. The Germans flooded the cellar but the soldiers shot themselves rather than surrender.
    You can visit the cellar where there is a memorial.

  354. Valerie says:

    @Liz g

    Yay, another Winger there. You might have seen me on my feet taking pics. I was wearing my blue Yes #indyref2 t shirt, and sporting a black bin bag, clearing up at end.

    Glad you enjoyed, my friend Angela was organising, and nervous. Hope to see you at the Yes meeting at end of month.

  355. Smallaxe says:

    On this Day: 16/8/1958.

    Construction of Forth Road Bridge to begin – archive;

  356. Sinky says:

    Call Kaye now bigging up a Tory MSP proposing to allow Headteachers to ban mobile phones in class which is a power they already have. Now trying to get a Tory “No to a second referendum” spokesperson. Now English “expert” telling us Scottish education system is rubbish.

    Another case where BBC takes Tory / Labour press releases at face value and do no proper research.

  357. Les Wilson says:

    Lots of excellent postings on this thread.
    Does anyone know if there are any Youtube postings on Alex at the festival ?

  358. Liz g says:

    Valerie @ 9.09
    I remember you now (From the Tee Shirt)
    Tell your friend she did well.
    The contact sheet didn’t reach me though.. I was probably at the loo….
    So yes I would love to come to the meeting…but can you stick up the details please?
    Mibbi over on off topic if you want to be very good,but here is fine by me if yer feeling risky and all radical!!!

  359. Lenny Hartley says:

    In a previous life I used to work in the Oil Industry, I visited the States often, once in Houston a consultant we used to use heard I was in town and invited men out to dinner with his missus, we were in an Outback Steakhouse and as they had a farm in Waco the discussion came round to the Waco siege which was still fresh in the memory. They were on the side of the nutter who caused the deaths of scores of people including children, we were discussing the right to bear arms when he pulled a Magnum 45 out of a holster under his jacket. I nearly fainted! His missus then produced a small Derringer type gun from her purse,
    Both of them were pensioners, could not believe it, she even complained that they would not let her take her gun into the courthouse when she was doing jury duty!
    I worked for American companies for over thirty years, gotta say nice people but mad as a box of frogs. One of my mates had a theory that if you take people out of a temperate North European climate and move them enmass to the baking hot States it fries their brain, he could be right!

  360. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Highland Wifie at 11.21 pm

    We got on very well with John Bercow when he was Tory candidate for Motherwell South in 1986/87. Quite supportive in fact and said he had no idea why more Scots didn’t want to be independent.

  361. Smallaxe says:

    Les Wilson says:
    “Does anyone know if there are any Youtube postings on Alex at the festival?”

    Nothing, so far Les, but here’s a clip of him talking about it.

  362. Highland Wifie says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill
    Good to hear that. Confirms my first impressions. He seems to be a man of integrity but also doesn’t appear to take himself too seriously. He gave a good account of his own political journey from fairly far right views to what he now describes as the centre. I have the greatest respect for anyone who admits to a change of perspective and doesn’t cling to old ideologies for the sake of it.

  363. gus1940 says:

    Things must be getting really desperate at Johnston Press.

    The Scotsman has been reduced to including contributions to the main body of their propaganda sheet from some of the regular loony brigade who fill their letters and comments sections.

    In the last week we have seen examples of the above with notable loonies Keith Howell and Clark Cross being given by-lines.

    Another of The Scotsman’s more crazed letter writers Richard Lucas has surfaced this week in the letters section of The National.

  364. Smallaxe says:

    I’m nothing like as good as Nana, but here are some links;

    By, Colin Alexander, naw it couldnae be him, could it?

    Brexit and devolution: laws and land grabs;

    Could hardcore Tory toff Rees-Mogg really replace PM Theresa May?;

  365. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 15 August, 2017 at 9:00 pm:

    Shocking, simply shocking. You should pass a bill for a referendum.
    Oh, sorry, I forgot.”

    So that comment is the perfect example of what I’ve been attempting to get across for you where your basic approach is causing you problems.

    Neither Nicola Sturgeon, or any other individual MSP, whether in power or not, can pass a bill through the Holyrood parliament.

    The reason you are so often arriving at wrong conclusions is because you persist in your belief that the Scottish Government leader, or the Prime Minister of Her Majesty, is your boss and that you are thus parliament’s servant or even slave.

    All any individual, and that includes you, can do is propose a bill, oppose a bill, propose an amendment to a bill or opposed someone else’s amendment to a bill.

    Nicola can only propose a bill as an individual like anyone else. Furthermore any proposal of any kind must have a seconder or it is stopped dead in its tracks.

    Unlike Westminster where the Prime Minister, (who by the way is NOT legally the Prime minister of the party in power because that title, “Prime Minister”, is actually fully stated as, “Her Majesty’s Prime Minister”, of Her Majesty’s Government of her United Kingdom.

    So legally what is thought to be, “The Prime Minister, of the United Kingdom Parliament”, is legally the delegated representative, of the still legally Sovereign, head of the Kingdom of England.

    They do not, of course, want you to know that and I kid you not.

    Read this link carefully:-

    The Queen of the Kingdom of England legally, “Appoints her Prime Minister”, to, “Her Majesty’s Government”, because of the, then still independent Kingdom of England, parliamentary rebellion that history calls, “The Glorious Revolution”, of 1688.

    Thus in English law, (that applies to all three Kingdom of England countries but not in The KINGDOM & Country of Scotland), the Monarch of England is legally sovereign but, as Queen of Scots the monarch of Scotland is not sovereign under the still independent law of Scotland.

    So the actual legal set-up is not what is actually being operated in the United Kingdom but, as can be seen right here on Wings, getting the truth accepted by even dyed in the wool supporters of independence is nigh on impossible but none the less is the actual legal situation.

    Here, though, is the main restriction placed upon the Holyrood Parliament. It is set up as a devolved bit of the Westminster Parliament and, as the Westminster set up Supreme Court has already ruled, Westminster can abolish Holyrood any time it wishes.

    Now go figure – how can the Holyrood parliament get that Westminster, (United Kingdom parliament of Her Majesty, The Queen of England), into the international courts such as, (not the EU), European Court of Human Rights”, that is part of the Council of Europe and which includes not only the EU but the UK as signatories and thus both subject to the European Court of Human Rights?

    There is only one way that can be done and that is by the SNP, as a party and not just as a Westminster Government devolved set-up, being given a, democratically voted for, majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland.

    That majority has not yet been achieved.

    I’ll put that in a different manner for easier understanding:-

    The people of Scotland are legally sovereign.

    Queen Elizabeth is, “Queen of Scots”, and is NOT legally sovereign under independent Scottish law.

    Queen Elizabeth is Queen of England and is legally sovereign in the three country Kingdom of England but must legally delegate her Sovereignty of The Kingdom of England to the now not actually existent, (unelected as such), Parliament of the Country of England.

    Westminster is illegally operating as the de facto parliament of England but there are no, elected as such, members of the parliament of the England. The last parliament of England was officially ended on the last day of April 1707.

    Yet here you are telling us that Nicola Sturgeon, all by herself, can pass a bill through the Holyrood parliament:-

    A Bill is a proposal for a new law, or a proposal to change an existing law, presented for debate before Parliament. A Bill can start in the Commons or the Lords and must be approved in the same form by both Houses before becoming an Act (law).

    Yet, as a member of the SNP. (The Political Party), you and a seconder can propose a motion and have it either passed or debated and voted for at any SNP branch meeting. It will, if it goes through the full process be put to the Holyrood, or even The Westminster, parliament and, if it wins the vote, become an Act of Parliament as the Law.

  366. heedtracker says:

    We got on very well with John Bercow when he was Tory candidate for Motherwell South in 1986/87. Quite supportive in fact and said he had no idea why more Scots didn’t want to be independent.

    As Mr Speaker in the Commons, I’ve watched him repeatedly step in to aid fumbling, stumbling goon tories, Teresa included, even just by shouting order order, to allow them to get their thoughts together, as they lie their tory arses off, at us. No other party gets the Bercow cover. Its why he’s been the Speaker for a decade near on.

    Never trust a tory, even the “nice” ones.

  367. yesindyref2 says:

    @Hamish 100 / @Brian Powell / @Macart
    Ah well, now you’re all getting technical 🙂

    That was really funny at Invergordon, seems the crew were all ashore having their tea, forgetting to leave a duty watch. How careless. The CIWS should be able to shoot down a drone if it’s a commissioned ship and there’s a crew. Oh well. Some red faces and indigestion in the RN I expect.

    Yes, there’s some debates about such high-speed missiles, there are moves to fit the T45 with anti-ballistic missiles which presumably would be launched from the talked about possibility of a VLS41. And the carriers would normally be escorted, with the Merlins providing AEW.

    There should be F35-Bs though, probably around a half squadron ready for 2020, though I wouldn’t be surprised if there are more.

  368. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert Peffers
    You need to read the thread in sequence to understand my postings to the scrambled @nicol a. You do have an unfortunate tendency to think the worst of people, and jump without thinking.

  369. Tatu3 says:

    My father was born in India (his parents were neither army or civil service). He liked to talk about his everyday childhood, but did not really talk about the horrors that went on on the run up to August 1947. He said some days he would see dead bodies on his way to school. When he was 18, he and his family eventually left India to return to Scotland in 1948.

  370. mike cassidy says:

    Re Heydrich

    There have been at least two English-language films about the assassination.

    Operation Daybreak – 1975

    Anthropoid – 2016

  371. Smallaxe says:


    I’m not surprised that your father did not want to talk about it, absolutely horrific times, I’m glad that he returned to Scotland.

    Warning! this video is very distressing.

  372. Smallaxe says:

    mike cassidy,

    Operation Daybreak is on youtube, here’s part one, the other parts are available also, I hope this helps;

    Operation Daybreak Part 1;

  373. John H. says:


    I’ve heard a few funny stories about events aboard the aircraft carrier during it’s trials. Unfortunately I can’t repeat them here because the people at the top of the MOD don’t have much of a sense of humour about their new toy, and I don’t want to get friends into trouble.

    You can imagine though, that with so many personnel on board, it gets a bit comical at times.

  374. Dorothy Devine says:

    Smallaxe , good morning.

    I think you should x certificate that piece and the awful truth contained, not to stop folk viewing it but to prepare them for the sights of war.

    As Great Britain we have so much for which to answer.

    For all the faux outrage at Russian shelling in Syria , the chest beating over the deaths of civilians and children, there was no video footage of the carnage we inflicted in Iraq – all sanitised.

    Perhaps if folk actually viewed what was done in our name then we as the UK would keep our noses out of other countries

  375. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Dorothy Devine at 11.51am

    We (US and UK) did more bombing in Syria that Russia ever did plus the US/Saudi Arabia funded the ISIS lunatics that invaded and took over Aleppo. Read John Pilger, Vanessa Beely, SCIAF and all the other honest links that will tell you the truth about the massive lies we have been fed about Syria for over ten years. The WMD lies have nothing on the Syria lies.

  376. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker @ 11.49 pm

    Roman camps. There is the Ardoch camp just outside Braco, north of Dunblane which also had a marching camp. There was a Ford over the River Allan and that would give the Romans their route north to Braco.

    Wikipedia has an entry for the Ardoch fort which states: “Ardoch Roman Fort is an archaeological site just outside the village of Braco in Perthshire, Scotland, about 7 miles south of Crieff. At Ardoch are the remains of a Roman fort and several marching camps which included a signal tower. Part of the Roman Gask Ridge, it is said to be one of the most complete Roman camps in Britain, and is one of the best-preserved series of Roman military earthworks in the whole Empire.””

  377. crazycat says:

    Further to what I said about the Heydrich quotation last night:

    I realized this morning that the ellipsis at the end of my first block quote might have contained the rest of the text we were seeking a source for. So he could have said the whole thing, providing MacDonald with inspiration for his own later comment about independence.

    The text following the ellipsis, in MacDonald, is not part of what we were looking for, however, so the omitted portion would have had to be quite long, and MacDonald not the source for the entire thing. (Not on that page, anyway; some resilient person may have to read the whole book after all! Accessing it the way I did is a pain – trying to scroll up and down keeps over-shooting.)

    A second reading of the first bit leads me to think it was a brief for the SS official – he was supposed to undermine Czech self-confidence by showing that various prominent people were of German descent, for instance.

    So, a job description for the SS, resurfacing in another time, another place? Quelle surprise.

  378. Vestas says:

    @ mike cassidy 11:13 am :

    “Re Heydrich

    There have been at least two English-language films about the assassination.”

    Anthropoid is (IMHO) the better of the two films you list, watched it the other week on Netflix.

  379. heedtracker says:

    Legerwood says:
    16 August, 2017 at 12:15 pm
    heedtracker @ 11.49 pm

    Roman camps.

    A must see! But above all else, it’s not of any interest to anyone that really matters, Roman Britain, any Britain, especially British academia.

    As a non archeology, non historian, non academic, I find our chums in the south endlessly blotting out of Scotland’s incredible past not in the least surprising.

    Neither is it much a surprise that those that decide what we should know and understand about Scotland, actually in Scotland, do it to us all, too.

    Everybody’s doing it.

    If I was the decider though.

    I think what’s really fascinating about Scotland, as an interest to the outside world, is that our country is being sat on by the big fat jacksie of yoon rule, but that they get away with it all still.

    Brit nats will Brit nats, through the ages.

  380. Valerie says:

    @ Liz g

    Next Cumbernauld Yes meeting

    Thursday, 31 August, 2017 @ 7.30pm
    Muirfield Comm Centre

    Don’t hammer me, Rev! It’s in a guid cause.

    Hope to meet you properly, Liz.

  381. Highland Wifie says:

    @ heedtracker
    Didn’t say I would trust him only that I have respect for him. A tory is a tory for a’ that.
    There are some whose opinion I respect even if (usually) I disagree. I try not to let the label blind me to the person. I know that sounds a bit sanctimonious – I don’t mean it to be.

  382. Smallaxe says:

    Dorothy, I did put a warning on the clip that it was distressing but then most things that came out of the colonisation of a large part of the planet by The British Empire were distressing. I sincerely hope that I did not upset you, Dorothy, if so, please accept my apologies.

    I hope you have a nice day.

  383. Legerwood says:

    heedtracker @ 12.34

    I have been to the camp at Ardoch many years ago but there is not much to see other than the earthworks – and lots of wild viola if, like me, you go in the Spring.

    I have also been Leptis Magna in Libya which is spectacular, unless ISIS etc have blown it up. I remember standing in what had been the market place looking over the blue Mediterranean on a beautiful sunny day and thinking that at the time of the Roman Empire while some Romans were enjoying the delights of Leptis some poor sods were on guard duty in Bravo! Sort of brought home to you the extent of the Roman Empire.

    I really don’t know why Mary Beard is getting it in the neck for saying what she did. Given the extent of Roman rule in North Africa then it is perfectly possible that people from that region would end up in Britain via service in the army and a posting to Britain. I thought they had found graves/skulls in London from Roman times some of which were African in origin.

    Maybe part of the reason Roman interaction/settlement in Scotland appears to get glossed over is because we have done such a good job promoting the idea that we sent the Romans packing so people don’t dig deeper into the real story.

  384. Smallaxe says:

    Dave McEwan Hill, Hi, Dave, here’s a John Pilger article that you have probably already seen but others may want a look.


  385. Liz g says:

    Valerie @ 12.47
    Thanks Valerie,hope to see you there and meet you properly too.

  386. heedtracker says:

    Legerwood says:
    16 August, 2017 at 1:04 pm
    heedtracker @ 12.34

    Scottish history is glossed over because of England’s endless struggle to dominate Scotland, cultural domination, socio economic domination, now Brexit domination, England’s out, youre coming with us etc

    Hellenistic Roman Imperialism is unique today in that is more or less venerated and worshipped by our tory England neighbours.

    Not for nothing are we surrounded by neo classical architecture, take Bath and Edinburgh, for example. Some yoon culturalists even like to put little plaques on neo classical imperial buildings, helpfully explaining who built them and when but never how they got the money to do it.

    British imperialism copied, embraced, worshipped the Roman Empire, Georgian women dressed in togas, because British imperialism was much the same as Roman, just much bigger, mass slavery, genocide, incredible extremes in wealth, staggering exploitation of most of the UK populace, total environmental annihilation, worshipping of god like empress kings and queens, domination by religions, Catholic, Protestant.

    You can do this all day, grinching abut tory England’s worship of empire, their creepy weepy nostalgia for empire. But its not for nothing that all of the above was also embraced by the Third Reich, this fantasy world of Rome, with exact same desire for empire as the British too.

    All of which explains the how and why of contemporary tory England’s love affair with the Romans and precisely why they exact same mindset, right in to English academia, who ofcourse simply cannot tolerate the concept of a Roman England, defeated by Caledonia…

    is how my Scottish Open University course, Romans in Scotland, units 101, would be all about, before I was fired:D

  387. Andy-B says:

    Kevin McKenna, on indyref 2, get off your backsides, and become dissenters and agitators if you really want independence, we won’t win by being nice.

  388. Robert Peffers says:

    @yesindyref2 says: 16 August, 2017 at 10:56 am:

    “You do have an unfortunate tendency to think the worst of people, and jump without thinking.”

    The last thing in this World I ever do is jump without thinking, yesindyref2.

    The points I’m making are directly quoted from what commenters have posted. People, especially lurkers are reading those comments and no doubt they are influenced by them.

    Furthermore, for the majority of the time I make a point of reading through an entire thread in sequence. Missing only the well known wasters of time who come here to disrupt threads.

    Even then I do allow a, “Benefit of doubt”, until there is no more doubt left to benefit. Then I scroll past these wasters of space but often do see what they are on about by the comments of others who persist on being deflected from the topic.

    The exception is when I am out for entire days at, for example hospital appointments and there has been a very long thread followed by a new topic then I skim the old thread and go on to the new.

    What you interpret as me, “Jumping without thinking”, is my responses to actual comments made here on Wings that are factually wrong and provably wrong. For example I attempted to debate with Rock about The Scottish people’s undeniable legal sovereignty but you cannot debate with a closed mend that only believes it is right but offers no proof or evidence that it’s beliefs are true.

    There is absolute proof that the people of Scotland are legally sovereign and this has been stated by the very best of Scottish legal brains actually on the bench in Scotland’s highest courts.

    Here is, ironically from, “The Scotsman”, an article on the topic of Scottish Sovereignty that should be essential reading.

    The point is that the concept they are legally sovereign under the law of Scotland has been long washed from the brains of the majority of, (and I use this term advisedly to include those, particularly from England, who are immigrants into Scotland), “The People of Scotland“.

    So many of “The People of Scotland“, still are totally ignorant, (and that does not imply they are stupid), of the truth that they are, by law, sovereign.

    Neither, and this too is factual, do the people of the three country Kingdom of England or indeed the EU and the World at large.

    Now ask yourself this simple question, Yesindyref2:-

    If I find it difficult to convince committed Wingers who profess to desire Scottish independence then what chance do the SNP have to convince Westminster, the people of The Kingdom of England, British/English Nationalists, members of the European Parliament or the World at large?

    The fact is to regain Scottish independence is quite simply only a matter of getting a majority of the people of Scotland to accept the totally true fact that they are sovereign and have the legal right, if acting together as a majority, to just tell the World at Large, “We are the legally sovereign people of Scotland and we are now legally ending the failed Treaty of Union that does not recognise our legal sovereignty and treats is as the dominion of the country of England.

    Yet here you are thinking that Nicola Sturgeon has the legal right to just instigate a bill for independence and then declare Scotland independent.

    She, nor any one person can do so and neither can a Holyrood that is a devolved part of Westminster, Unless the legally sovereign people of Scotland give her their majority vote to specifically do so.

  389. Brian Powell says:


    This is just the UK Brexit government, the EU hasn’t agreed to it. They couldn’t unless it applied to Scotland too.

  390. Macart says:

    @Brian Powell

    Pretty much.

    Not sure the EU will enjoy being painted as the potential bad guy here though. Westminster, and in particular the Tory government, attempting to pass off both responsibility and repercussions for the constitutional and economic omnishambles they created onto a.n. other.

    Always a stunning way to win friends and influence people.

  391. Smallaxe says:

    Robert Peffers, I hope you don’t mind but I’ve archived your link to the Scotsman as some people won’t click on it otherwise.

    The Scotsman

    Sir if I may be so bold but arguing the point with coprolite is a waste of your valuable time, Sensei Peffers.

  392. Jack Murphy says:

    Dan Huil said at 7:40 pm last night:
    “Brilliant post by Wee Ginger Dug:

    Yes it is brilliant with this quoted paragraph really jumping out of the page at me:

    “……British nationalism is far more dangerous than Scottish nationalism. It’s more dangerous because it has nuclear weapons and fetishises the military. It’s more dangerous because it is the expression of a state which lacks a written constitution and proper checks and balances on power.

    But above all it’s more dangerous because its core belief is that it is not nationalism at all. British nationalism is the nationalism of the unaware, the blind, the obtuse.

    That’s the kind of lack of insight that has led to Brexit, has led to the shocking rise in hate crimes in the UK since the EU referendum, and which threatens to ruin this country………”

  393. colin alexander says:

    The SNP Scot Govt was elected on this manifesto mandate:

    We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendumif there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will. Scotland voted Remain, but was outvoted by England (and Wales).

    So, why has the Scot Govt been negotiating Brexit terms, soft Brexit, Single Market Brexit, EFTA Brexit? They have no mandate to do that.

    Their mandate was straightforward, if Scotland voted Remain and the UK Govt included Scotland in leaving the EU we would have an indyref while Scotland is being taken out the EU, not after Scotland has left the EU. That’s why the Scottish Greens voted aye for an indyref, then Patrick Harvie spoke out complaining that the FM had procrastinated on an indyref, as it makes it less likely Scotland would still be in the EU by the time any indyref happens, if it happens.

    The Scot Govt had no mandate to negotiate a softer EU exit for Scotland.

    The SNP asserted the Claim of Right, the Sovereignty of the People. The people voted Remain. That is non-negotiable for the UK Govt; non-negotiable for the Scot Govt.

    If Scotland has left the EU before independence occurs:

    Regarding the return of devolved powers, there is little to negotiate: A devolved power is a devolved power. All powers devolved to the EU should go to Holyrood, as that is where devolved powers belong.

    But the reality is, despite people justifiably poking fun at Scottish Labour etc as being the branch office ruled from London,

    The reality is Holyrood is only the branch office of Westminster rule. The FM is only the branch manager of devolved WM power.

    The Scottish Parliament should be sovereign, whether that’s within some Union or as independent Scotland. Until, that happens Scotland is nothing more than regional politics run by branch offices.

  394. Sarah says:

    O/T Get well soon, Rev, and look after yourself.

  395. Chick McGregor says:


    Typical deluded guff from Westminster.

    It is entirely up to the EU who they choose to qualify or not qualify for EU citizenship.

    It is up to Ireland to decide who they confer Irish citizenship on.

    It applies equally to those in Scotland who may hold or could qualify to hold dual nationality with Ireland.

    All the UK could do would be to bring in a general law banning dual citizenship in the UK which is hardly a possibility when you consider how many Indians, Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Americans, Pakistani, Israeli, etc.etc. hold dual citizenship.

    They are merely trying to save face in what is a de facto situation.

  396. Sarah says:

    O/T The Rev tweeted a couple of hours ago that he’s not feeling very well and we’re on our own for a few days. Use the time wisely, folks!

    Get well soon, Rev, and look after yourself.

  397. Jack Murphy says:


    European Commission. Audiovisual Services. 5 minutes.

    ‘Position Papers’ from the UK.

    “The clock is ticking”.

  398. Macart says:

    @Chick MacGregor

    That’s my thinking. They’re simply using this positional statement as an attempt to wash their own hands of any fallout.

  399. yesindyref2 says:

    Nice to see you posting so regularly on wings but sad to say, you are becoming a bit repetitive.


  400. Chick McGregor says:


    Here’s hoping the UKSC are daft enough to over-rule the Court of Session.

  401. Famous15 says:

    So while the Rev is ill Colin Lexander will explain ad nauseam why the SNP should hold indyref2 at the most likely time to fail again. Get cheated again!

    CGHQ needs another less obvious schill.

  402. Robert Graham says:

    O/T – PROFUSE APOLOGIES – skimming through some of the posts i get this feeling i have seen the same point continually being pushed day after day by the same person , a bit like groundhog day , or deja vu, once is fine , twice is a little repetitive , three times and it’s becoming a tad Boring .
    Just a thought .

  403. Famous15 says:

    I was really wishing to say GCHQ shill but the urban dictionary meanin for schill works too W!

  404. Smallaxe says:

    Chick McGregor, it will be worth watching Chick, the lawyers will be rubbing their hands.

  405. heedtracker says:

    Robert Graham says:
    16 August, 2017 at 3:55 pm
    O/T – PROFUSE APOLOGIES – skimming through some of the posts i get this feeling i have seen the same point continually being pushed day after day by the same person , a bit like groundhog day , or deja vu, once is fine , twice is a little repetitive , three times and it’s becoming a tad Boring .
    Just a thought .

    Umm, what’s preventing you from making WoS btl more exciting then Robert?

    Come on Robert, you’re up…

  406. Smallaxe says:

    Robert Graham says: “it’s becoming a tad Boring.”

    It’s the same old song
    But with a different meaning
    Since you been gone
    It’s the same old song

  407. heedtracker says:

    Smallaxe says:
    16 August, 2017 at 4:13 pm
    Robert Graham says: “it’s becoming a tad Boring.”

    6 will get you 10 Robert’s got lashings of amazing new stuff to say, btl WoS:D

  408. colin alexander says:


    No, I’ve said the SNP have no mandate to negotiate Brexit with the UK Govt.

    I’ve made it clear I think Indyref is a stupid idea. The first one proved that. Rigged by the UK Govt from start to finish. Wasn’t my idea to seek that mandate for another stupid indyref. I never wrote the SNP manifesto.

    If they are going to breach their manifesto promises, then they should do it by ditching indyref altogether and seeking independence via an election manifesto.

  409. Smallaxe says:

    So what *is* a mid-spectrum blogger?;

  410. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – apologies for not replying sooner. I was
    a) asleep
    b) out all day

    I downloaded the kindle version of Callum MacDonald’s Heydrich book and will steel myself to search through it. He does seem to use all the elements of the quote scattered through the text. Whether there is a clear statement by Heydrich is still a mystery. To be solved.

    Sorry to hear that Stu is not well. Hope he makes a quick recovery. Looks like this might be a long thread and we are well off topic by now. But interesting.

    Heard on BBC R4 news driving home that Theresa May has said almost exactly what Nicola said two days ago about no equivalence between far right violence and protesters defending diversity. Except the BBC omitted to tell us when Nicola said it.

  411. Smallaxe says:

    A resounding no vote for Alex Salmond, Assembly Rooms, Edinburgh, review: Alex Salmond baaad, says the Telegraph.

  412. heedtracker says:

    Smallaxe says:
    16 August, 2017 at 4:53 pm
    So what *is* a mid-spectrum blogger?;

    Off hand there are a few regular WoS btl commenters who routinely comment btl WoS, “stop commenting btl WoS.”

    Some blame the National, some Alex Salmond, one will even sue for slander, if he cant make people stop commenting btl WoS.

    The one common theme throughout their, stop commenting btl WoS? They are all the most ardent YES votes, since ever.

    Its just that they really want everyone to stop commenting btl WoS.

    Takes all sorts.

  413. Dorothy Devine says:

    Smallaxe , no you didn’t upset me but I thought it might upset some. I believe that these images should be on our news so that we truly understand what war means and how our participation in it leaves only devastation , grief and a need for revenge.

    While the powers that be pretend we are the good guys and cannot face the mirror of history , I feel only shame.

  414. Chick McGregor says:


    “So what *is* a mid-spectrum blogger?;”

    Well if it was a National crossword clue, I’d expect it to be something like (3,6) Joe Bloggs.

  415. yesindyref2 says:

    Dominic Cavendish, Theatre Critic “On the evidence of this, I’d rather have spent a week at the dentists.”

    Poor thing, must be suffering from gnashing his teeth.

  416. Tinto Chiel says:

    “The mirror of history.”

    You’re a poet, Dorothy.

    What has angered me about the 70th anniversary of India and Pakistan on PravdaSound4 is the Establishment subtext which is being pushed relentlessly: “Look what happened when we left these types to their own devices” rather than the reality: “We cut and ran and imposed unworkable boundaries and timescales on an extremely complex society.”

    Almost as if they didn’t want the newly independent countries to thrive……

    Cynical, moi?

  417. Cactus says:

    a) The trouble with Corbyn…
    b) The trouble with May…
    c) The trouble with Cable…
    d) The trouble with Davidson…
    e) The trouble with Dugdale…
    f) The trouble with Rennie…

    Is that they’re all anti-Scottish (they are pro-uk-union only)

    The benefit of Nicola… is that she be for Scotland. iFACT.
    We need at least one politician that’s FOR US and gws boss.

    ***NEW TOPIC mibbies***
    Howsabout yer auld friend the W’s of (N)MD…?

    Bombs be BAD.

  418. yesindyref2 says:

    I’d go for “green” (5). Talking of crossword clues and “scrambled” anagrams …

    … I might have been too oblique with the intended humour. Oh well.

  419. crazycat says:

    @ Capella

    Good luck! It might be possible to skim-read it looking for the salient points without too much distress.

    No need to apologize; not everyone can spend all day on here :).

  420. Chick McGregor says:


    Know I’m being thick but what does ‘btl’ stand for?

  421. Cactus says:

    BTL is for ‘below the line’ dude 🙂

  422. crazycat says:

    @ yesindyref2

    The space was a bit of a give-away! Some people don’t like cryptic crosswords, though I think they are sometimes easier than “quick” ones that only have single-word clues to which there may be more than one answer.

  423. Alex Clark says:

    What Cactus says Chick, the posts not the article 🙂

  424. Clapper57 says:

    Has anyone noticed the trend in BBC news reports where , when they wish to cast a negative spin on any SNP initiatives or achievements , they state ‘some critics’…..and then proceed to highlight the criticism from the nameless ‘critics’…..take last night’s Reporting Scotland on the opening of the newest section of the M8 motorway….this term ‘some critics’ was used as a negative spin on what should have be seen as a positive story for Scottish business.

    How much credence do they expect us to give to the validity of this criticism where no individual, organisation , political party…… or indeed those involved/linked to the source of the criticism e.g. NHS worker , Teacher, policeman is named or willing to appear on camera to voice their opinion/criticism.

    This is surely a mere carbon copy of certain newspapers who quote an ‘unnamed source’ as a justification for writing a critical spin on some article thus giving carte blanche to condemn someone or something with no substance to the story other than an ‘anonymous’ opinion.

    This is not JOURNALISM or REPORTING but mere tittle tattle that could be spread by any individual with an agenda or grudge…..or political motivation……in fact it is nearly on par with certain rabid unionists who write incessantly to newspapers….and whose rantings are constantly published…..a one sided spin heavily biased against the SNP and Indy supporters……God forbid any supposed media organisation would rely on these rabid unionist individuals as their ‘some critics’ sources.

    If there is criticism then I want to know WHO is criticising and WHY they are criticising….because then I can decide if there is a political motivation or personal motivation behind the criticism…..because without this important information which has been omitted , with no reason why the ‘critic’ is unnamed, then I am left doubting the source of the criticism ……..and……the existence of the ‘critic’ at all.

    Thankfully we have WOS monitoring and highlighting the many distortions and incorrect stories printed by a press not fit for purpose, which has prompted many a correction…..albeit a small hidden one……..being made by the media…..indeed the BBC has had to correct a ‘mistake’ made online today re wrong unemployment figures quoted for Scotland……believe STV too quoting same incorrect figure… where was this information sourced………and which lazy journalists made this mistake….I say ‘lazy’ but hey if I were in conspiracy mode I would believe it was deliberate.

    So BBC ….’Some critics’ is just not good enough…..if you…as a public broadcasting organisation….. supposedly….. relaying factual news….. cannot substantiate a criticism you report has been made and actually NAME your SOURCE i.e. the ‘critics’……….. then I say desist from using this vague and unprofessional method and if there is/are ‘critics’ then you need to ensure that he/she/they are willing to put their name/s to their objections/criticisms…..we are surely not in ‘ a journalist never reveals his source’ territory……are we ?….cause if we are then you need to rethink your strategy on licence fees ….because the service you are providing is not a public service that should be paid for by……..the public.

  425. Liz g says:

    Chick McGregor @ 5.54
    BTL = Below The Line
    I had to ask as well a wee while back!

  426. heedtracker says:

    Almost as if they didn’t want the newly independent countries to thrive……

    Cynical, moi?

    Same beeb gimps have been running Salman Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children for their tory book at bedtime slot, or its just finished.

    For this anniversary, same Beeb gimps interviewed Rushdie about this pretty incredible book and focused very much on Partition. Not why it happened ofcourse, who created it or anything but what it meant to Rushdie, whose own family was chopped in half, by a British royal nutter, literally taking a pen across a map of the sub continent, just before British imperialists waltzed out of Indian.

    It was pretty much akin to the whole of the UK gov just quitting today, Whitehall, beeb gimps, the army, the lot.

    But Rushdie’s no fool. He knows not to argue with beeb gimpery, if only because they wont broadcast it.

    Midnights Children


    “The book begins with the story of the Sinai family, particularly with events leading up to India’s Independence and Partition. Saleem is born precisely at midnight, 15 August 1947, therefore, exactly as old as independent India. He later discovers that all children born in India between 12 a.m. and 1 a.m. on that date are imbued with special powers.”

    Beeb gimps,


    Roshan Seth reads Salman Rushdie ‘s novel, abridged in 15 parts by Pat McLoughlin. Mary Pereria swaps name tags on two infants – one rich, one poor. The hero enters a life of renown as India’s chosen Child of Midnight. Part 6. Producer Sheila Fox”

    Even wiki’s wrong.

    Its not, “all children born in India between 12 a.m. and 1 a.m. on that date are imbued with special powers.”

    Its a thousand new born, in the first hour of India’s independence.

    Imagine the first hour of Scotland’s:D

  427. Meg merrilees says:


    I should think Alex will claim that review as a personal success.
    After all, I can’t imagine someone who obviously dislikes AS enjoying a monologue from said person.

    The fact is that the run sold out and the extra shows sold out and the extra, one-off extra show also sold out within days – ’nuff said.

    Wonder if a solo stand-up show by the theatre critic of the Daily Telegraph would even get the slot!!!
    Some people forget that AS has been awarded ‘Politician of the Year ‘on a number of occasions.

    As for the dismissive line ” He raised a few bob for a leukaemia charity” is a bit mean considering he is raising in excess of £1,000 each night.

    I notice the BBC Scotland website states that Unemployment in Scotland is at an all time low – just imagine all those Social security workers and benefit payment folk who’ll be out of work as a result. How could that SNP get things so wrong!

  428. Alex Clark says:


    The use of “some critics” usually refers to the Labour Party in Scotland though why they just can’t say that is a mystery. Or is it?

  429. Robert Kerr says:

    O/T but oh well!

    Mid market live rate for Euro spiked but has settled at a tad over 91.0 pence.

    My good lady is off to the Irish Republic on Friday with a stash of Euros she exchanged GBPs for quite some time ago.

  430. Cactus says:

    On the subject of BTL’s, here’s a similarly known familiar frase…


  431. Tinto Chiel says:

    Amen to that, heed, but The Establishment will no doubt have all sorts of nice little booby-traps and surprises while we try to disentangle ourselves from the dying animal of The Union.

    First up, all sorts of O/O thuggery a la 19/9/14.

  432. yesindyref2 says:

    Glad someone got it! I used to live in Edinburgh for a while and it was a long time before I realised people weren’t being boring it was a completely deadpan humour. It’s just one of the great things about Scotland, the different humour in different parts. Mind you it’s a bit of a problem when you laguh and people get offended because they were being serious.

  433. Clapper57 says:

    Alex Clark says:
    16 August, 2017 at 6:13 pm

    “The use of “some critics” usually refers to the Labour Party in Scotland though why they just can’t say that is a mystery. Or is it”?


    Hi Alex, I am sure most of the time it is……however I believe there are MANY unnamed sources queuing up to criticise under the guise of the ‘some critics’ mask and indeed probably on speed dial to the BBC et al to criticise anything and everything that is linked to the SNP and Indy supporters…..the ‘mystery’ is a real who dunnit …..or rather who dunnit this time….is it not ?

    Have a good evening

  434. heedtracker says:

    First up, all sorts of O/O thuggery a la 19/9/14.

    They played their hand though. It wont be met by teens again.

  435. Cactus says:

    Weapons of Nuclear Mass Destruction (and ra renewal of) are BAD.

    What if shit happens, what would you do in between your last 300 seconds of life then d fellow Scots…?

    Dr Jim called it well.. choose and stand by your door. Strike a pose.

  436. Cactus says:

    It’s always seventeen degrees C in Glasgow 😉

  437. Albert Herring says:

    “some critics” = BBC

  438. colin alexander says:

    “Calls for the devolution of immigration and demands that the Scottish Parliament’s responsibilities over fisheries and agriculture are respected post-Brexit also feature.

    Says The National about the SNP conference.

    Typical SNP: Devolution and begging post-Brexit devolution of EU powers.

    “None of the potential resolutions published in the draft agenda mention Scottish independence.”

    SNP since 2014: Shhhhh! Don’t mention the “I” word. The our Unionist masters might no like it.

  439. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cactus: could you give us your views regarding the extent to which you love Glasgow/Scotland in general?

    To some extent I feel you have been a trifle unclear on this matter….


    PS: remember St Blane’s, Bute.


  440. Cactus says:

    Evening Tinto 😉

    Glasgow is fucking excellent!
    Scotland is fucking excellent!

    St Blane’s noted dude.


  441. yesindyref2 says:

    Okey-doke. To continue the theme of using biased MSM reporting about topics unrelated to Indy, to show just how shit they are, here’s where the QE carrier is actually at with the position of having F35-Bs for her maiden voyage:

    whereas the crap UK media is still going on about her having “no aircraft”. There’s also this that shows that the ski-jump trials of the F35-B by the BAE test pilots are going very well:

    Use the Unionist media reports to discredit itself.

  442. galamcennalath says:

    Reading a variety of articles talking up the idea of an invisible border between NI and the Republic. I just don’t get it at all.

    The aim of the EU is to get the status settled soon, yet surely movement of people and goods depends on the final EU/UK arrangements.

    It’s not difficult to imagine the two parts of Ireland, in say five years time, having totally different regimes regarding immigration, tariffs on imports, and regulations on food.

    What is there to stop (when the UK explicitly rules out checks between NI and the rest of the UK) ….

    – US ‘poluted’ food being bought wholesale in NI and driven into the south?

    – goods which the UK has tariffs on being sourced in the south?

    – goods which EU has tariffs on being sourced in UK and moved to south via NI?

    – immigrants arriving in Dublin and making their way to anywhere in the UK?

    … and so on. A smugglers paradise in the making!

  443. Tinto Chiel says:

    Cactus: message received and understood.

    “The geese are flying high and Venus guards the horned moon.” 😉

    Probs keep SB for the vernal equinox.

    Imagine a Wings outing there: music of the sphere’s ‘n’ that.


  444. Tinto Chiel says:

    I apologise for my greengrocer’s apostrophe in spheres.

    Life’s a mystery, dudes.

  445. Smallaxe says:

    Excuse me, please, gentlemen, I have been offline for a short time, I’m sure none of you will be offended if I address the ladies posts first, thank you.

    Dorothy, I fully agree with you. I will leave the last piece of a poem that I wrote on Wos a while ago.

    Never ending bombs
    are dropping
    No one cares
    no one needs them
    The price to kill
    Would cost less
    To feed them
    The sky cried
    Death and
    Young breath
    Are we to blame
    I die in shame

    Thank you, Dorothy.
    Dave McEwan Hill, thank you for the words that you wrote that same night.

  446. Smallaxe says:

    Meg, Yes, he’s an awful man that Alick Samonn, the money he gives to charities is ridiculous, it’s all tax deductible you know. 🙂

    I saw the good news on the SNP website, isn’t it a great shame though, that when we in Scotland get news that more people have a job we can still feel sorrow and anger that only those that look at a website will hear or read about it.

    Somehow and in some way, this absurd situation can not be allowed to continue!

  447. heedtracker says:

    All dynasties collapse. Good gag btl Graun? Queen of Farts, is the good word too.

    The Hidden Paw 3h ago

    Prince Charles decided to take up walking every day. At the same street corner he passed a whore standing there every day.

    He learned to brace himself as he approached her for what was almost certain to follow;
    “One hundred and fifty pounds!” she’d shout.

    “No! Five pounds!” He said from the side of His mouth, just to shut her up.

    This ritual between him and the pro became a daily occurrence.
    She’d yell, “One hundred and Fifty pounds!”
    He’d yell back, “Five pounds!”

    One day, Camilla decided to accompany her ‘husband’.

    As the couple neared the cat’s corner, Prince Charles realised she’d bark her £150 offer and Camilla would wonder what he’d really been doing on all his past outings. He figured he’d better have a good explanation for his wife.

    As they neared the corner he became even more apprehensive than usual. Sure enough, there she stood. He tried to avoid eye contact as she watched the pair pass.

    Then, the hooker yelled:
    “See what you get for five pounds, you tight bastard!”

  448. Tinto Chiel says:

    Smallaxe: one thing which has really stuck in my craw since 2014 is that a Yes vote would have meant the removal of WMD from Scotland, guaranteed, NQA.

    Yet so many BLIS______d supporters and CND members simply didn’t think it wasn’t important enough, the removal of The Great Obscenity.

    Westminster and/or groovy Corbyn’s Labour will never give up their plutonium tinky-winky. They will hide behind their never-in-a-million-years multilateral shtick until we’re all pakora’d to buggery.

  449. Dr Jim says:

    Russia has a Nuclear weapon capable of wiping out an area the size of France, not a lot of them together, just one!

    I’ll just leave that thought with you

    On another note Morrisons are selling Scottish steak pies in a box with a Saltire on it, but when examined underneath the box as I always do I find the pie is actually made in Bradford
    I’ve been pointing this shit out for a while now because when EU branding protections go post Brexit guess what’s going to happen to Scottish based and Scottish branded goods
    Arbroath Smokies no more, Loch Fyne kippers no more, Harris Tweed no more
    Shall we all sing now and remember the good old days when we’ve always been Fukced by Inglind

  450. heedtracker says:

    Everytime English tory media want to make Scotland look like a news void/region of greater England, like the Graun’s doing all week, they wheel out nothing royals stories.

    Prince Charles letters
    Wednesday 16 August 2017 14.46 BST Last modified on Wednesday 16 August 2017 17.00 BST
    Clarence House should release Prince Charles’s Scottish spider memos
    David McClure
    What the heir to the throne has to say about teacher training may well be of less import than the issue of secrecy surrounding his correspondence

  451. Smallaxe says:

    Tinto, you caught my attention, when you said: “Probs keep SB for the vernal equinox.”

    Ah thocht ye’d coat sumfin aff a lavvy pan!

    You had me concerned for a minute.

    I don’t think anybody else requires an answer, you’re all getting on fine talking amongst yourselves. All is well on Wos, Wingers!

  452. Tinto Chiel says:

    Damn the fears, Smallaxe: pure as the driven keech, me.

  453. yesindyref2 says:

    Just knocked this up for a bit of fun. It is funday after all, our resident comedian is doing his best to keep us amused:

    “Dividing military assets”

  454. Alastair Ewen says:

    Theresa May’s statement on the Irish border question transposed to Scotland….

    OVER the past 12 months, I’ve said many times that while the rUK is leaving the EU, we are not leaving Europe.

    No one voted to end the special ties between the rUK and Scotland or to undermine the unique arrangements between rUK and Scotland which have underpinned the peace process and have been in place well before our membership of the EU.

    I want to show how our proposals will meet the concerns of people who are worried that their ability to travel freely across Scotland and rUK would be affected.

    They want to know whether the unique citizenship rights guaranteed by the 2nd Edinburgh Agreement – and the right to identify as British, Scottish or both – would be undermined. In addition, they want to know if there would be a return to the hard borders that no-one wants to see return.

    Today, we publish a position paper that sets out how we want to approach these and other issues in the negotiations.

    I hope people in Scotland and rUK will see the UK Government is determined to protect the unique arrangements between Scotland and rUK. Protecting your citizenship rights, and protecting the 2nd Edinburgh Agreement, is at the heart of our approach.

    On the citizenship rights guaranteed by the 2nd Edinburgh Agreement, our position is clear. Scotland remains geographically part of the British Isles, but it is also the permanent birthright of the people of Scotland to hold both British and Scottish citizenship.

    This will remain the case, and people of Scotland who are Scottish citizens will remain EU citizens. The rUK wants this guarantee confirmed alongside the other aspects of the Edinburgh Agreement as part of our withdrawal agreement with the EU.

    We also want the EU funding that has helped victims of Thatcher and cross-community groups to continue at least until the current programme finishes.

    We then want to go further, and explore a potential future programme of peace funding after we leave the EU.

    This will need to be agreed between the EU, along with the rUK and Scottish Governments, but I have always said that as part of the deep and special partnership I want to negotiate between the rUK and the EU, there may be specific and valuable EU programmes for which we want to agree the continuation of funding. Peace funding in Scotland is one of them.

    For those concerned about freedom of movement across Scotland and rUK, our proposal is clear: we want to maintain the reciprocal arrangements for the Common Travel Area and all the rights for our citizens that have existed in some form since 1707.

    It allows British and Scottish people to move freely across our islands, and is at the core of the deep social, cultural and economic ties that link us together.

    It goes beyond just the ability to move between our countries without passport controls, and also means guaranteeing continuing rights for rUK and Scottish nationals to work and access public services.

    We believe it is inconceivable that it could change, and we believe that can be agreed early in the talks.

    Of course making sure the border remains as seamless as possible isn’t just about free movement of people. We need to ensure there is no hard border enforced on the movement of goods.

    While the rUK will no longer be a member of the EU customs union, we have set out plans in this week’s paper on customs to seek a deal that allows for the most seamless possible movement of goods between the rUK and EU.

    This is especially important for the movement of goods, not least in relation to agriculture. As Michel Barnier has said, we will need an unprecedented approach for the border here, and this will mean careful work and imaginative approaches but today we set out our key principles.

    The first of those principles is stark: there should be no physical border infrastructure of any kind on either side of the border between Scotland and rUK. I want people to be absolutely clear: the rUK does not want to see border posts for any purpose.

    There are other vital issues we want to address: preserving North-South cooperation, and making sure the all-UK energy market is protected. All of this work only underlines the importance of involving the Scottish Government. That is an urgent goal for me and Secretary of State, David Mundell. And it is one the Scottish Government shares.

    Today I want to reassure everyone in Scotland, that the rUK leaving the EU will not jeopardise things you value profoundly.

    Your citizenship rights are permanent and inviolable; you will be able to work and live in Scotland and rUK exactly as now on a reciprocal basis; and we do not want any border posts between Scotland and the rUK.

    In addition, there can be no question of imposing a new customs border between rUK and Scotland. That would be totally unacceptable to the UK Government.

    I am determined to deliver a good Brexit deal for the whole rUK, and my first priority is protecting the unique and special relationship between Scotland and rUK.

    No one would pretend our history has always been smooth, but as the UK begins a new chapter, it will not mean turning our back on the historic progress that has been made within Scotland, and across these islands.

  455. Smallaxe says:

    I see some Wingers are talking about WMDs, have a look at this, I follow it and email some of them and find it quite informing.


  456. Artyhetty says:


    Just took a look at one of my fave sites, Wow, has anyone else heard about the major cyber attack on the Scottish parliament? I don’t know how to link short URL, but have sent to twitter. Apparently it is unusual as it ‘sustained’.

    See, ‘technology’ section if interested.

  457. Rock says:

    Robert Peffers,

    “People, especially lurkers are reading those comments and no doubt they are influenced by them.”

    “Lurkers” are probably bored to death by the rantings of the Messiah and don’t bother to come back, in my humble opinion.

  458. Artyhetty says:


    Your comment would be quite funny if it wasn’t so freaking true and scary. For that matter, they might as well cancel Scotland as well. 🙁

  459. Tinto Chiel says:

    Robert Peffers, if you’re well and about: could you outline the extent to which you think the Scottish people are sovereign?

    For the avoidance of doubt.

    I keep hearing this annoying mosquito-like sound in my ears from time to time.

    Fanx, and oblige, etc.

  460. yesindyref2 says:

    Yes, read it earlier in the Herald. I was looking for a suitable article to warn that I’m getting a sudden huge increase of emails with encosures of the nature “you wanna be a zombie”, both let through and discarded at my server.

    Don’t ever click on a dodgy enclosure in your emails, folks.

  461. Artyhetty says:

    re smallaxe

    Yep that must be the one. Will check out your link.

  462. Meindevon says:

    I was at a funeral in Plymouth today. Nice guy who was born in Helensburgh but came down here because his father was in the Navy.

    Anyway that’s by the way. Got talking to his niece and her wife who is German. They work at the uni. I took the opportunity to ask if Brexit would affect them. The very nice German lady has a German passport. She has thought about applying for British citizenship or a permanent stay on residency but to be honest her wife said after living (15years) and working and marrying here, she doesn’t feel welcome any more. So far, so sad.

    However they love holidaying in Scotland and are considering maybe moving there. I told them they would be more than welcome…as long as they vote Yes in the next ref of course! Pretty sure they would.

    (Must have been Jock day at the Crem as the next one in line had a piper playing Flower of Scotland…and yes I did shed a tear)

  463. Meindevon says:


    I make a mean chicken broth. Just say the word Rev and I’ll pop round with it! You’re only up the road.

    Get well soon, we need you fighting fit.

  464. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Even my wife who doesn’t pay a lot of attention to political detail was appalled when she found out that that aircraft carrier cost £3.2 billion. I think we should be making much of this.It is not difficult to demolish any reason for that sort of expenditure on such nonsense. I have battered the following screech to lots of newspapers

    “The new UK aircraft carrier that is being boasted of has cost, at £3.2 billion, four times as much as it cost to build Glasgow’s new hospital and three times as much as the new Queensferry crossing of the Forth.

    Aircraft carriers by their nature provide no defence for the country and are only utilised to carry planes nearer to some other area to be threatened or attacked. This (and the other one we apparently are building at the same cost) represents an obscene amount of money spent in the UK trotting along behind the US at the behest of the US with aircraft dependent on the US and with their only possible use in the pursuit of US bullying and warmongering around the world. And they make very big targets as well.

    In Scotland we are expected to applaud this obscene waste of money on the grounds that it has provided jobs. But we could for instance have built as many homes as we needed to completely solve our housing problem while providing many more jobs with that money or even built a Scottish naval presence to patrol Scottish waters in the same way as Norway does with over forty naval defence vessels in its waters, all built in Norwegian yards.

    There is no way any sensible small country would even countenance this sort of imperial imbecility and the sooner we are out of bonkers UK the better.”

  465. heraldnomore says:

    There’s only one person boring the lurkers to death, and it ain’t The Messiah.

    Which reminds me, how many copies of tomorrow’s The National? Full spread on Andrew O’Hagan’s masterpiece to look forward to, and to spread around.

  466. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Aye, when the cat’s away an’ aw that…


    A lot of mischief-making going on tonight, and it’s not all by the usual suspects.

    Youse Spam & HP Sauce rolls best get yer act together smartish – ye’s need new scripts and/or sood-o-nims.

  467. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Dave McEwan Hill –

    re the big aircraft carrier…

    What’s the betting some Scottish smart-arse launches a competition to see who can be the first to land a used condom, fag-end, or similarly undesirable/useless small object on the surface of this vessel?

    ‘Yer Da’s Landed, Eh?’ is the unofficial title of this challenge.

  468. Smallaxe says:

    Meindevon says:
    16 August, 2017 at 8:46 pm
    “I make a mean chicken broth.”

    Where do you get the mean chickens? I’m asking for a friend.

  469. Cactus says:

    There be a saying…

    “Don’t sweat the small stuff..”

    Perspire the inevitable!



  470. Tam the Bam. says:


    Hi there.My younger brother lives and works in Plymouth and we both attended Hermitage Academy .

    *Useless information: I had a torrid affair with a Lieutanant Commanders daughter (do like a slice of navy cake!).

  471. Legerwood says:

    Artyhetty @ 8.19pm

    I should imagine quite a lot of people know about the cyber attack on the Scottish Parliament since it was reported on the news last night and tonight to say nothing of the newspapers etc.

  472. trixy says:

    roll on indyref2

  473. Smallaxe says:

    Artyhetty says:
    16 August, 2017 at 8:29 pm
    re smallaxe

    “Yep that must be the one. Will check out your link.”

    I’m glad that I could help, Artyhetty. That’s what WoS is for.

  474. Meindevon says:


    Well from a mean chicken egg, of course! Tell your friend to man up and ask his own que…oh wait, does he own hammers?

    @Tam the Bam

    Aye those flat black shoes just turn heads all over the place! 😉

  475. Chick McGregor says:


    Had to be said and you did it well.

  476. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Smallaxe (9.11) –

    He did that before the ‘Yer Da’ rules were announced, so it disny count.


    P.S. Love the time-check. Couldny make it up man…

  477. Chick McGregor says:


    Wouldn’t it be great if a drone flying club landed drones on it spelling out the word WASTE?

  478. Liz g says:

    Meindoven @ 8.41
    Likewise I was recently at a family Wedding,got talking to the bestman…. from Norway….. who’s partner is French.
    They both live and work in London,and, had planned their future there.
    Not anymore…..,he said that he doesn’t know anyone in his circles who isn’t planning to leave.
    And this is a high earning/high tax paying couple!
    But he also said….. I would not believe how many had already left,and that it was our news that wasn’t reporting it.
    Ofcourse I did tell him that the fact that the media were failing to report it… I have no trouble believing!

  479. bugsbunny says:


    I wouldn’t be surprised if it either came from GSHQ/MI5 or from Scottish Tory HQ?

    No doubt a certain “Colonel” will be cock a hoop, and shouting “Attention” at her MSP’s. Or in her case maybe “A 10 Chins?”

  480. galamcennalath says:

    Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Aircraft carriers by their nature provide no defence for the country and are only utilised to carry planes nearer to some other area to be threatened or attacked

    Indeed. Carriers are for projecting military power somewhere else, typically far from home.

    This is an interesting list of who indulges in such aggressive technology …

    There are 19 carriers currently active in the world, 11 of them US. A further 8 are under construction and the US has two in reserve.

    I am fairly sure size matters when it comes to aggressive intent. Some are relatively small displacement ie the Spanish Príncipe de Asturias is 16k tonnes and the Italian Cavour is 30k tonnes compared to the Elizabeth at 70k tonnes.

  481. Smallaxe says:

    Liz g says:
    16 August, 2017 at 9:48 pm

    I’d like to ask a question, what would we do if we were Scots by choice (many of us are) and were very understandably uncertain about our future in Scotland?

    Walk in their shoes so to speak.

  482. yesindyref2 says:

    As a bit of a lone voice in a wilderness, never mind anyway, here goes. Dr Craig Dalzell did some work on defence for Indy Scotland, and one of the interesting figures that emerged was that defence spending was worth a coefficient of 60% to the economy, on average.

    So since the QE was built in Scotland (as well as around the rest of the UK in blocks), the cost of £3.2 billion leaves £2 billion in the economy, for a nett cost of £1.2 billion.

    Incidentally, the UK is building a part of the F35 for all aircraft ordered, 3,000 so far, and that’s worth 15% for each one, so the equivalent of 450 F35s built in the UK. That leaves at 60%, 270 F35s in the economy.

    On the other side about 150 of those are for the UK, so by being part of the program, ignoring initial development costs, the UK makes a profit of 80% on its purchase.

    I should work for the Treasury. Debt? What debt!

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