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From man to pig and pig to man

Posted on November 10, 2015 by

Below is an article taken from the UK media today about the Scotland Bill.

pigs

Give it a read through, and pay attention. There’ll be a very short quiz at the end.

DEMOCRACY HAS DELIVERED, AND THE WHINING SNP IS ABOUT TO COLLIDE WITH ECONOMIC REALITY

What is that high pitched whining sound? It’s the SNP grievance machine cranking into action.

Even thousands of miles away it can be heard on social media if you follow the right/wrong people, who are furious that the substantial new powers for the Scottish Parliament do not, yes, you guessed, go far enough.

After a week in which, after their farcical approach to tax credits, when they didn’t know how to use the new powers coming the way of Holyrood it was also crystal clear that the SNP didn’t even know what these powers are.

For people whose single political aim is independence for Scotland, everything that doesn’t deliver independence is an outrage. That was the source of perhaps half of last night’s anger, and there was never anything that could be done about that.

The Scotland Bill, debated by the Commons this week, is a pacification strategy designed to appease the troublesome tribes in the northern part of the kingdom.

We can now expect a great song and dance from the Nats about this latest ‘outrage’ – their view not mine – from the Conservative government, all of which will do nicely with their friends in masking the appalling mess they have on their hands with the policies of which they’re already in charge at present but which have always been devolved.

There is good news though. The SNP grievance machine, which has hummed along so successfully in the last year since the referendum, is starting to malfunction. Last week, the party was made to look very silly on the question of tax credit cuts.

There is a clamour north of the border for the UK changes being introduced by George Osborne to be mitigated. The SNP initially said it did not have the powers to do so. That’s Westminster’s fault, again, apparently. Ah, no, actually it can mitigate the changes, pointed out everyone else. It just has to find the money to do so.

And this debate and last night’s anger also starkly demonstrates the limits of trusting a party whose sole aim is independence with running a powerfully devolved government. The SNP have demonstrated time and time again that their every political decision is a calculation about how to make independence more likely, not a calculation of how to make Scotland a better place. Scotland deserves better.

However, forever moaning about a referendum keeps the Nat ‘ultras’ happy – all those new members who want another vote, no matter if it does result in another defeat. La Sturgeon wants to play a longer game but in the short-term a whinge about those dastardly Tories will maintain the gripe quotient perfectly well.

Though the Scottish Nationalists are fond of conflating party and national interest they no more speak for Scotland than right-wing euro-fanatics within the Tory party speak for Britain.

Most of Scotland voted No last September. The question ‘What kind of country do you wish to be?’ received the answer ‘A British one’.

Supporters of last year’s Yes campaign have been sold the lie that if they only keep the flame alive until a second referendum can be forced on the Scottish people, they will be able to set aside the democratic choice of Scots made last September.

As a result, too many of our fellow Scots are unable to move on. It is time for the leaders of the former Yes campaigning parties to lead, and tell their followers that a new phase has begun.

It is easy to complain, and in politics it is more fun. Feel the flush of righteous anger. Shake your head at the incompetent antics of the government of the day or an uncaring Westminster elite.

Yet, governing – with extensive tax powers, as the Scottish Parliament now has – is much more difficult than opposition. There are choices to be made, all the time. Funds are limited and competing voices demand their share of scarce resources.

The dawning of reality will almost certainly not be enough to wake up sufficient Scottish voters from their sleep in time for 2016 Holyrood election. The SNP simply has to keep pushing the dream of the “45” (the 45% of Scots who voted for independence) and get that vote out. In contrast, the Unionists are splintered in three parties.

Beyond that, there is hope. The SNP’s broad coalition spans left-wing voters wanting higher taxes, middle class middle-ground voters wanting “free” stuff and core Nationalists obsessed with securing a second referendum.

It was easy to hold this lot together, when the complaint of insufficient powers was the focus. It may be more difficult several years down the line, if it becomes apparent to reasonable people that complaining about powers always was cover, created by a party elite obsessed with breaking up the UK.

As long as powers were the focus, they did not have to resolve or confront internal contradictions that apply in normal, non-constitutional polities, on questions such as the size and power of the state, or the best levels of taxation and spending. Life is about to become a little more difficult for the SNP.

The passing of the final Commons stage of the Scotland Bill and the fulfilment of the Vow is to be widely welcomed. A powerful Scottish Parliament within a strong United Kingdom is what Scots voted for. It has been delivered.

The perma-grievance politics of the SNP and much of the erstwhile Yes campaign saps the will of decent people and undermines democracy. This politics of division needs to end.

So, now for the question: was the above written by:

(a) Alex Massie for the Spectator?

(b) Alan Cochrane for the Telegraph?

(c) Iain Martin for CapX?

(d) Duncan Hothersall for LabourHame?

The answer, of course, is (e) all of the above. We lifted paragraphs out of all four hacks’ diatribes* and pasted them together more or less at random, unedited, to see if it was possible to tell them apart or even see the joins. We’re thinking of submitting it to the Daily Mail under Chris Deerin’s name and seeing if we can get paid for it.

It’s a telling piece, which efficiently and accurately summarises the attitude of both Labour and the Tories to the Scotland Bill. Both parties have leapt on it with glee, forgetting even to pretend that it’s about anything other than making life difficult for the SNP and punishing the 50% of Scots who voted for them. (And everyone else.)

The uncontrolled excitement may yet be premature. The Bill has yet to pass through the Lords, and more importantly to receive the required legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. As the gruesome details become clear, public support – already distinctly lukewarm – may die entirely.

The Scottish Government has already made clear it’s prepared to block the bill if it considers it to be against Scotland’s interests. It’s currently very difficult to see where a great deal of public opposition to that view would come from.

(Almost the only positive on offer as far as voters are concerned is the power to mitigate Tory tax-credit cuts, but the incredible difficulty, complexity and cost of the move – now that Labour and the Tories have teamed up to block the devolution of the credits themselves – provides a strong case that the power isn’t worth the price.)

The failure of the loaded and booby-trapped Scotland Bill would kill once and for all the idea that Westminster could be trusted to deliver the sort of home rule that Scots consistently say they want. The crass, insulting Tory-Labour stitch-up played out in last night’s Commons “debate” is a bad look for the Union.

So we hope Alex-Iain Cochersall writes many more triumphalist, belligerent articles gloating about how the new powers will bring about the humiliation of the SNP (far and away the most popular government in Scotland’s history) and vengefully reduce the nation to a broken financial wreck unable to support its people. We could only dream of being able to construct a more compelling argument for independence.

.

.

Paragraphs:
1, 2, 7-8, 15-20: Martin
4, 9, 13-14, 21-22: Hothersall
3, 6, 10: Cochrane
5, 11, 12: Massie

Title: Hothersall/Martin

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    628 to “From man to pig and pig to man”

    1. Chic McGregor says:

      OT Yipee! Ponsonby’s indref MSM record documentary crowdfunder just hit 70%, what a last minute effort by Wingers. wd.

      Past the cred point, but let’s see how much more we can do.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/how-the-bbc-stole-the-referendum-the-documentary#/

    2. Alan Mackintosh says:

      BDTT, nope, before I stuck up an image as an avatar, the generated pixel one was the same every time I posted. So the different avatar indictates a different log-in detail. As the name is the same, the email must be different, which triggers the pixel avatar.

    3. SonOfAGunn says:

      Will we ever find out who wrote the Frenchgate memo?

    4. Ronnie says:

      Final offer-

      A ‘suppuration’ of journalists.

    5. Lanarkist says:

      OT.

      Much deliberation over collective noun for Journalists all over this thread and the history of literature…

      Seems a scoop of Journalists is favoured currently although in Corp Media in Scotland that would surely be an extremely rare sighting!

      A Propaganda of Journalists?

      Maybe Rev Stu could decide!

    6. Sensible Ruby says:

      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      11 November, 2015 at 11:47 pm
      Re: avatars, re: sensibledave.

      Are these not just randomly generated (by WordPress) avatars because SD doesn’t actually have one?

      <Ruby replies

      Yes they are randomly generated but they stay the same. Mine is always purple with pink bits.

    7. dakk says:

      Chic McGregor

      ‘a cocophany of c***ksuckers’

      I do like that.

      However the problem with that,is that it is an insult to c***ksuckers everywhere by associating same with journalists.

    8. Tackety Beets says:

      Re Avatars Like BDTT , I thought WP produced a random pattern if Nothing registered . Thanks for the correction Alan.

      I was scanning some older posts recently and I noticed Doug Daniels current Avatar seams to have changed even on old his posts too.

      So much to learn , I am known as a great source of useless information.

      Notice Federal Broon was a bit off with Gary Gibbon on Ch4 , who are yea ?

      FMQs tomorrow? It’s bound to exceed last weeks fantastic entertainment.

    9. Chic McGregor says:

      OT Since we are on a new page of comments, might I reiterate a popular call in the latter part of the last comments page for consideration of donation to the London Calling proposed documentary based on G A Ponsonby’s book.

      IMHO it is very important that we have an audio-visual record if only for future historical reference, in regard to the ignominy with which the BBC and others of the MSM have conducted themselves diring the indyref (and since).

      Here is a taster of what such a documentary might be like.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q6UNiziLzE

      In the past few hours, even though a bit late in the day, the crowdfunding has burst through the 70% point thanks to last minute giving by Wingers and others.

      Even at this stage, your contribution could add significantly to the 70+ % already achieved, even if you are still bleary eyed from just getting up.

      https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/how-the-bbc-stole-the-referendum-the-documentary#/

    10. K1 says:

      I just checked the end of the ‘Scottish Labour Party of The Day’ thread and you’re correct Ruby, there are three different avatars for his posts during those exchanges.

      I note too that most posters are ‘assigned’ the same avatar, but I do remember a while back noticing my avatar had changed, and then seemed at a later point to have changed back to the original one. And I have never altered my email address.

      So, looks like none of us are entirely clear on this?

      Only Stu would be able to explain this. (maybe)

    11. bert says:

      The Guardian reports that Lady Paton and Lord Matthews were sitting in an election court in Edinburgh, as a committee of the House of Commons.

      Note that Ann Paton (Lady Paton) was appointed to the Privy Council in June 2007 (source) and is therefore beholden to ‘the crown’.

      See this blog post on the legal ‘Obiter J blog for information on the Privy Council, in particular the Anonymous comment which references an essay by by Gerald Reaveley James, entitled ‘My experiences, the Scott Inquiry, the British Legal System’.

      an excerpt…

      “The other area which is key to overall secret control outside Parliament is the Privy Council. It is important to note that all main members of the Cabinet become members of the Privy Council as do leaders and sometimes the deputy leaders of the opposition parties.

      The Privy Council oath which all members take means they cannot freely discuss any matter they are informed of or told of “Under Privy Council terms”. This means that the Cabinet and opposition leaders cannot discuss freely in Parliament or elsewhere any matter told to them on “Privy Council terms”. This means in practice that the key MPs cannot discharge their democratic duties. It is in effect a gagging system like Public Interest Immunity Certificates dispensed by Judges on application of Government and its agencies. All senior Judges and Appeal Judges are Privy Councillors as is the Lord Chancellor, The Attorney and Solicitor General and other invited and key persons. This secret unelected body has a wide range of powers. On the surface other permanent secretaries, sometimes the Cabinet Secretary and certain members of the established aristocracy are Privy Councillors. The appointment is for life…”

      So I suspect the Carmichael case outcome will be honed “Under Privy Council terms” by the various House of Lords Privy Councilors & democratic justice will not prevail, (although I think that a public backlash may hopefully/eventually see the back of Carmichael….)

    12. Tam Jardine says:

      Angra Mainyu

      I have heard people say Devo-Max has never been properly defined or agreed upon. The description you then make is the only one I have ever heard anyone use ie full autonomy except on defence and foreign affairs.

      It sounds lovely- the best of both worlds… security and stability. It is so popular because it is seen as less final, less scary and confrontational I suppose- it also allows people who want to remain in the UK but feel patriotic about Scotland and want to strengthen Scotland’s sense of itself to express themselves. Fantastic.

      We cannot take it. Devo max would have to be agreed by all parties concerned unlike Independence. It is for England to decide what level of devolution we receive. And we have just all had a masterclass on what level of devolution we can expect to receive.

      A no-vote was achieved on a wooly, hazy, vague manifesto of ‘extensive new powers’ and the media built this up to be the equivalent of devo-max or federalism. 45% of people voted for Scotland to have full independence. I have no doubt in my mind that there is a large number of no-voters would have voted for devo-max. There are probably a fair number of Yes voters would have taken devo-max over Independence if it had been on the card. All Yes voters would have taken it as a second prize.

      So a referendum where the majority of people wanted a minimum of devo-max followed by a lanslide election where the SNP won demanding the substantial powers promised including full fiscal autonomy ie devo max.

      We could have election after election on this but England decides what level of devolution we receive.

      So much as I agree with you that devo-max or FFA has merit, is popular and may be a stepping stone to independence as we will never be granted it it seems like a moot point.

      Scotland is divided- aye she is. Had the referendum not been such a farcical pastiche of the UN Charter of Self Determination I would be content to leave the matter for a generation.

      As it is the sands are shifting and Scotland is losing patience with Westminster. I hope the SNP have just fired the first volley in a war against the UK state- rejecting the Scotland Bill will certainly provoke a reaction from down south and it may well draw more Scots into the schiltron.

      The SNP certainly need to change it up and go on the attack. But devo max as a possible constitutional arrangement is now dead. It died on monday.

    13. Petra says:

      I’m on my IPad so can’t attach a link however check out Sandra White SNP MSP re. Jewish issue. I can’t believe that she’s done this. What a fool! Nicola Sturgeon has enough on her plate.

    14. osakisushi says:

      Ruby

      Thanks for posting these archive links. Amazingly, I remember reading two of them. Funny not available at the original sites.

      We can hope. If not, IR2 on first Thursday in July 2019 may work.

    15. bert says:

      If the Carmichael judgement goes in favour of the 4 Orkney petitioners, I will be mighty surprised, but very pleased. Does anyone know when the final judgement will be issued?

      ^ further to my comment before regarding the Privy Council, note that Alistair Carmichael himself is a Privy Councilor!, as are SNP leader Angus Robertson MP, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, former First Minister Alex Salmond and former Scottish Parliament Presiding Officer George Reid.(source)

      The clue is in the reference title : if an MP/judge etc. is referred to as “The Right Honourable”, then they are a Privy Council member.

      It is a rather archaic Privy Council Oath that has to be sworn (first revealed by Tony Benn)

      “You do swear by Almighty God to be a true and faithful Servant unto The Queen’s Majesty as one of Her Majesty’s Privy Council. You will not know or understand of any manner of thing to be attempted, done or spoken against Her Majesty’s Person, Honour, Crown or Dignity Royal, but you will lett and withstand the same to the uttermost of your power, and either cause it to be revealed to Her Majesty Herself, or to such of Her Privy Council as shall advertise Her Majesty of the same. You will in all things to be moved, treated and debated in Council, faithfully and truly declare your Mind and Opinion, according to your Heart and Conscience; and will keep secret all matters committed and revealed unto you, or that shall be treated of secretly in Council. And if any of the said Treaties or Counsels shall touch any of the Counsellors you will not reveal it unto him but will keep the same until such time as, by the consent of Her Majesty or of the Council, Publication shall be made thereof. You will to your uttermost bear Faith and Allegiance to the Queen’s Majesty; and will assist and defend all civil and temporal Jurisdictions, Pre-eminences, and Authorities, granted to Her Majesty and annexed to the Crown by Acts of Parliament, or otherwise, against all Foreign Princes, Persons, Prelates, States, or Potentates. And generally in all things you will do as a faithful and true Servant ought to do to Her Majesty so help you God”

    16. crazycat says:

      @ Petra

      I’ve just had a look and I agree she should have been much more careful (the article I looked at said it had been “retweeted in error”). I also certainly regard the original tweet as anti-Semitic, something I’m very sensitive to.

      But, as far as I could see, she did not add anything to her retweet, and as has been mentioned recently in connection with someone else retweeting Nick Griffin, a retweeet is not an endorsement.

    17. osakisushi says:

      A Suppository of MSM journo’s works.

    18. call me dave says:

      A little EU poll of the countries.

      https://archive.is/CS47N

    19. Dave McDave says:

      @Petra @crazy cat
      While I do agree with you that it was an unsuitable tweet for a public figure to forward, knowing it would get more scrutiny than the average punter’s, I don’t agree with you about the original meme being specifically anti-semitic.

      It is a dig at the money-men, the capitalist pigs, and their war-mongering pals. It is a dig at the bank, not because of the Jewish name or origin, but because they have their grubby little trotters in a large percentage of current global conflicts, and it alludes to them profiteering by financing both sides as they continue their centuries-old crusades into the 21st century, with million dollar weapons.

      Most complainants seem to miss the fact that the 5th little atrocity-committing piggie doesn’t have on some Schindler’s List type yellow star of david, but the blue and white flag of the State of Israel. Any friends I have who are jewish, abhor the situation out there and are of the opinion “not in my my name”.

      This meme has been doing the rounds for a while now. Why are no Brits upset that one pig’s British? Why aren’t the Americans complaining it’s having a pop at one of their banks (or their penchant for war), where are the Muslims, so upset they’ve declared a fatwah on the cartoonist for depicting 3 piglets who commit atrocities in the name of Allah? By the Jewish logic, the cartoon would actually be three times more anti-Islamic than anti-semitic. (Another way to look at it is the cartoonist has purposefully chosen 3 who kill “in the name of Allah” and 3 who kill “with God by their side”, so no one faction is being singled out.)

      JKR and her anti-BDS chums should remember that publicising Israeli atrocities is NOT anti-semitic. If I share a video of IDF murdering an 8 year old, or shooting dead a grandmother while she’s driving her car, I do it to highlight the Palestinian’s plight and no other reason.

      Anti-Israeli anger should not be mistaken for anti-semitic prejudices.

    20. Simon says:

      @Dave McDave

      I would have completely agreed with you if I hadn’t put my glasses on to look at the image more closely and noticed a Star of David above the word Bank. That alone makes it anti-semitic.

      Without that red Star of David it is what you suggest.

      From now on when Sandra White talks about Palestine she will have that image associated with any thing she says efectively branding her an anti-semite.

    21. inkypic says:

      it is just really sad…..

    22. Ken500 says:

      Cameron had the cheek to write to his Local (Tory?) Authorities about cuts to local services which his Administration caused, by cuts to their budget.

      Israel will fail because it is an Apartheid State, which destroys the economy. It survives because of US financial support, which is waning. The illegal wars cost Trillions. The US supports an apartheid State which would not be tolerated in the US. More US citizens are killed by each other than terrorists every year. 30K+ those killed without proper medical care

      Catalonia is not voting by a majority for Independence. 2Million out of 4.4million voters, 5.5million electorate. pop 7.5Million. ‘Foreign’ EU citizens resident in Spain are not allowed to vote in regional or National elections in Catalonia (Spain?). Spanish administration is breaking EU Law. No equal
      rights. There is more support for Scottish Independence. A 5% swing.

    23. Ken500 says:

      The UK is run by a secret Privilege Society. The Privy Council. The Royals are not impartial.

    24. john king says:

      James Caithness @4.39 yesterday

      Its interesting that none of the links you gave James work, any thoughts on why that would be?

    25. Petra says:

      @ Ken500 at 6:44am

      Ken this is Chunky Mark’s take on Cameron writing to his local (Tory) authority. Seriously scary! A ‘must watch’.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFR8IBdXdJE

    26. mumsyhugs says:

      A ‘Carmichael’ of journalists!

    27. Petra says:

      @ Dave McDave says at 3:54 am ..”While I do agree with you that it was an unsuitable tweet for a public figure to forward, knowing it would get more scrutiny than the average punter’s…..”

      Dave Sandra White probably retweeted the image by mistake (and deleted it immediately) but as you say .. more scrutiny … CorpMedia will make a meal of it.

      She and Nicola Sturgeon have had to send letters of apology to ScoJec and a petition is now doing its rounds demanding that she (Sandra White) resign.

      I’ve read that the Star of David is depicted on Bush and Obama’s faces but the image is too small for me to make out.

      Click on the links to see Sandra White’s and Nicola Sturgeon’s letters of apology.

      http://www.scojec.org/news/2015/15xi_antisemitism/msp.html

      http://www.facebook.com/sandrawhitesnp/photos/a.198339823524569.49776.197000670325151/947478465277364/

      http://www.scojec.org/news/2012/12i_condemning_racism.html

    28. caz-m says:

      O/T

      London BBC telling us that the Prime Minister of India is visiting the UK (England) today and will sign trade deals worth Billions of pounds with us.

      The only problem with these trade deals is that they seem to be between England and India. Similar trade deals were set up between the UK and Saudi Arabia.

      The problem with all these deals with foreign governments seems to be that they only involve English companies.

      The final insult surely has to be when BBC Scotland gloat at the rising unemployment in Scotland compared to England.

      I wonder if it could have anything to do with the fact that the English are grabbing ALL the plumb contract and Scotland gets the dregs?

    29. A urinal of journalist

    30. Ken500 says:

      Vote NO you get nothing. People in Scotland were warned.

    31. caz-m says:

      I think a petition should be set up to force David Mundell to come in to the state broadcaster’s studios at Pacific Quay for a one hour interview. Questions should come from a selected studio audience.

      I know Mundell will never agree to this, because he is a coward. And Ex BBC Scotland reporter, Ruth Davidson MSP, is getting all the favours she could ask for from her former colleagues at PQ.

      Scottish Tories really do get the kid glove treatment from our impartial Scottish press.

    32. caz-m says:

      BBC Scotland asking if athletes who finished in second place behind a Russian drugs cheat should now be awarded the gold medal.

      So, BBC Scotland, does that mean that the guy who finished in second place to Alan Wells will now be awarded the gold medal?

    33. Scott Borthwick says:

      caz-m says:
      12 November, 2015 at 8:26 am

      Scottish Tories really do get the kid glove treatment from our impartial Scottish press.

      I read that as ‘imperial Scottish press’. Right enough either way, I think.

    34. Inkall says:

      @Petra

      To be honest I don’t understand why anyone uses twitter when it is so shoddily designed that one accidental brush of a touch screen can cause such issues.

      Presumably the retweet was in total isolation as if it had been part of a conversation then the whole lot would be being posted.

      I do find the scojec writer’s decision to bring up their criticism of the Scottish governments stance on Israel a little ironic considering the issue is one of posting negative Jewish stereotypes online.

    35. manandboy says:

      The Tories are to close all 170 HMRC offices and transfer their entire operation to 13 regional outsourced call centres.

      I wonder who will benefit most from all this? Do you think it might just be the developers who snap up the 170 parcels of land and buildings at cut price?

      Nah. The Tories would never do such a thing.

      The 1% will be unaffected naturally, as they hardly pay any tax at all.

      It’s at times like these that you wonder just what is the truth behind the decision.

      The Tories – the party of carnage. And four more years of lots more to come. Isn’t life in Scotland so much more exciting since we voted to remain in the UK with our Imperial Masters watching over us, protecting us from all the threats which surround us. Better Together.

    36. Petra says:

      Nana great links as usual.

      It’s not difficult to see the direction we’re taking in this country now.

      Gagging Bill, Surveillance and Spying Laws, Legal Aid cuts (changes to LAPSO Law has caused the number of new legal cases to drop by more than two thirds in two years), Chilcott delay, focus on arms trade (BAE UK third largest arms dealer in the World) and more prisons to be built …. privatised no doubt

      http://prisonwatchuk.com/2015/03/03/prisons-the-path-to-privatisation/

      And of course repealing the Human Rights Act with, for one, exemption from prosecution for soldiers committing human rights abuses overseas. You can clearly see why they don’t want SNP MSP Joanna Cherry QC on their Committee.

      It’s a bad day when Joseph Cannataci UN Special Rapporteur on Privacy states that ”Theresa May’s proposed surveillance and spying laws are worse than scary and that the the draft Investigatory Powers Bill heralded a “golden age of surveillance” unlike any that had come before”.

      Mr Cannataci accuses the British Government of an “orchestrated” propaganda campaign through its allies in the media to get the law passed with public consent. “We’re now at the stage where for the first time we have an absolute offensive.”

      Labour says the bill should have more safeguards and oversight but has not come out strongly against it (surprise, surprise)!

      The intervention from Mr Cannataci is not the first time the Government has provoked the ire of the UK. The international organisation is reportedly launching an investigation into human rights violations in the disability benefits system, and has previously criticised the UK’s ‘xenophobic’ approach to migration and refugee policy.’

      https://archive.is/hgu2l

      ‘The UN’s newly appointed special rapporteur on privacy, Joseph Cannataci, has described digital surveillance in the UK as “worse” than anything imagined in George Orwell’s totalitarian dystopia 1984.’

      http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2015-08/25/uk-digital-surveillance-joseph-cannataci

      UN Declares: “UK Has Weakest Oversight Of Surveillance In The Western World”

      http://truepublica.org.uk/united-kingdom/un-declares-uk-has-weakest-oversight-of-surveillance-in-the-western-world/

      ?

      ?

    37. Famous15 says:

      Retweeting does not show endorsement.

      Wings regularly retweets zoomers like TruthTeller to draw attention to their ravings.

      Retweeting draws attention to a tweet but does not often show endorsement.

    38. gus1940 says:

      Unless my memory fails me all these offices were sold off to an offshore based company several years ago.

      Once they are vacated by HMRC the buyers will really be able to cash in.

    39. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana You been busy with all those links ( did you get any sleep) but welcomed links,all the Bestess to You & Malcolm.

      Naebody better triffle wie ma Avitar,it tain me long enough tae get it up & thanks to Patrician for doing it.

    40. Ruby says:

      Sensible Ruby says:
      12 November, 2015 at 12:03 am
      Brian Doonthetoon says:
      11 November, 2015 at 11:47 pm
      Re: avatars, re: sensibledave.

      Are these not just randomly generated (by WordPress) avatars because SD doesn’t actually have one?

      Ruby replies

      Yes they are randomly generated but they stay the same. Mine is always purple with pink bits.

      Ruby replies

      I posted the above using the moniker ‘Sensible Ruby’ as an experiment as I wondered how someone could have three different accounts and the same user name.

    41. Jim says:

      Fucking call Kay with an E; On capital punishment a caller talks about the recent case of the guy that killed his stepsister describing cutting her body up and leaving it to rot.

      Then call Kay with an E 2 minutes later says she wont go into details for the sake of the family yet she allowed that cunt to describe exactly what happened to the poor wee girl.

    42. Andrew McLean says:

      O/T
      Speaking to the good lady last night, whilst watching a programme about an English accident department I mentioned the new Glasgow hospital as one of the most advanced hospital in Europe, ” oh no that’s a bad thing I have read bad things about it”
      The power of negative narrative by the cooperate media and the state broadcaster!
      Why do our media hate Scotland? No really it’s a illness they have, self abuse, yes that’s it ! a bunch of self abusers, that sums them up nicely!
      I hear the Herald is in trouble? And the Scotsman is close behind, both surviving on click bate! Wonder when the loses will get to big and they collapse?

    43. Nana says:

      @Ronnie Anderson

      Best sleep I’ve had for a while Ronnie. Not seen you around these parts much lately. Didn’t see you in the court yesterday. Hoping you are ok?

      Norman says “Hello Ronnie”

    44. Ruby says:

      What was ‘sensible dave/the sensible daves’ planning on doing with the numerous accounts?

      Was he/were they going to pretend to be different people or are they different people.

      I’m just curious but I really don’t care! They can call himself/themselves ‘sensible dave’ ‘Jezerna Rosa’ ‘Colin Rippey’ ‘John McIntrye’ ‘OBE Kevaverage’ it’s all the same to me as for the most part I just ignore them.

      I have to admit every now and again I wind them up and that is always good fun!

    45. Nana says:

      @Petra

      Thank you for your own links.

      I love it when folk take my links and add their own. That is the power of Wings, ideas take flight and information shared.

    46. Ruby says:

      Andrew McLean: Do you think the MSM media is 100% to blame or should your ‘good lady’ be held partly responsible?

      😀
      I’m including a smiley face in the hope that you don’t find my post to be rude & insulting to your ‘good lady’

    47. louis.b.argyll says:

      Tam Jardine,
      Re Catalonia, are you suggesting that Scotland should have an affair?
      ..as a way out of an abusive relationship..

    48. Ruby says:

      FMQ on today.

      Will there be a ‘cludgie of journalists’ at Holyrood today or will it just be Cochrane?
      I can never figure out why he goes to Holyrood when he could just do what the rest of the ‘cludgie of journalists’ do and watch it on TV,

      Perhaps he has to collect all the ‘leaks’ & ‘press releases’ which would be too ‘sensitive’ to send via email.

    49. Silver19 says:

      OT: It’s just incredible Brown the Clown is saying SNP must top up tax credits or back Tory cuts (the letter n is missing on that headline 🙂 after his very useless party just voted not to allow the devolution of tax credits to Scotland :- https://archive.is/uAhkS

    50. sensibledave says:

      Ruby 9.21

      … I have no problem with you checking with the Rev. If I have more than one avatar, and they are not randomly generated, then it will only be because I have misspelled my email address when responding via my iphone, rather than my laptop (which “offers” me my email address).

      I really wish that I had a more interesting tale to tell Rubes, but the reality is very boring I am afraid.

    51. Jim says:

      Carmichael tried to get revenge on Nicola Sturgeon for making him look a total fud in the STV debate.

      Help me Rona!!!

    52. Ananurhing says:

      Having just read Torrance’s fawning opinion piece in Monday’s Herald, Can I suggest a Whore of journalists.

    53. Capella says:

      @ Nana
      What a fantastic rant that was from Chunky Mark, “Is David Cameron the Most Stupidest Person in Britiain?”. Great. Thanks for the link.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFR8IBdXdJE&feature=youtu.be&a

      As before, the link to the Mirror article had a side link to an article on a Labour Councillor stupidly abusing a constituent on Facebook. This is Terry Kelly the Renfrewshire Council Planning Convener. Labour are looking into it.
      https://archive.is/Vcmw3

    54. Petra says:

      O/T

      The Daily Record with their usual callousness has published an article about Scot Sandi Thom and included a heart-breaking video of her in ‘Facebook meltdown’ after BBC Radio 2 refused to put her song on their playlist. Bauer Radio also rejected her song.

      The Daily Record has described her behaviour as a ”bizzare outburst”.

      I don’t think it’s bizarre (she’s 5 months pregnant for one) as she says “without their support (BBC Radio 2) it can’t be a success and the other massive network in the UK which is Bauer has also said no. The head of music said no to any interviews and playlists. That is basically 22 million people across the country who will not get to hear this song because of one person’s decision.”

      I LOVE her song and WILL be buying it.

      Watch as Scots singer Sandi Thom has Facebook meltdown after BBC Radio 2 refuse to put her song on their playlist.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV1n5aAKl9c

      Sandi Thom – Earthquake (Official Lyric Video) NEW SINGLE

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASBQyGK_WzU

      Sandi Thom – Earthquake (Live Acoustic Performance) – NEW SINGLE

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGSVwt-HPpk

    55. Flower of Scotland says:

      @john king

      You can google or duckduckgo the Jock Scot blog. I did.

    56. Andrew McLean says:

      Ruby
      Of course my good lady is 100% not to blame, how very dare you, if you were a man I would call you out as a cad and bounder, for the mere suggestion ! 😉

      But seriously if the only source of information is complete pish like the record what can you do? I read Kevin’s Twitter as a link from something and read a Scottish labour guy say that the SNP voted for the tax credit cuts? FFS he is a adult Scotsman! I wonder for our country if people actually agree?

      Re the Labour Party tax credit demo, why doesn’t Nicola hold a press conference tomorrow night to demand the Labour Party in Scotland condemn the Westminster labour MPs for voting or abstaining , by the way an abstention is a vote for when you are a minority, and get leaflets to hand out in the towns where they are holding their lie fest?

    57. Dave McDave says:

      @Simon
      Thank you for the clarification, I had zoomed in on the image on my phone but it was low quality and the red star at bank was illegible as was the writing on the Israeli flag on the piglet. I gathered from other forums it said “mossad” but the majority of complaints I read about it were focused on the 5th piglet’s flag and not the other star.
      I agree that this changes the cartoon slightly but I still feel it’s an over-reaction especially as too many people are quick to accuse Scotland (and the SNP) of being anti-semitic due to the support the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign has here.

    58. Nana says:

      @Caapella

      Mark is a good person that’s for sure. When he’s in a fury man is he furious. I was ranting along with him.

      Re the labour goon and labour looking into his actions. No doubt that will take the same blind alley route as looking into the actions of Ian Smart.

    59. DerekM says:

      how about a scrotum of journalists

      And sensible Dave is correct for once if you mess up your email address (ie put a coma instead of a dot which is an easy mistake to make)it will give you a new avatar.

    60. Ken500 says:

      Westminster ‘Trade’ deals are just a publicity stunt to borrow more money, off the balance sheet. £25Billion for a nuclear power plant which will be over time and over budget. A Humber Tidal barrage scheme, £9Billion, was cancelled by Labour. They are dumping nuclear waste in Ethiopia.

    61. galamcennalath says:

      Petra says:

      “… Scot Sandi Thom …. BBC Radio 2 refused to put her song on their playlist. ”

      More and more we will see the exclusion of anything Scottish from English media.

      Sad, but perhaps an inevitable consequence of our struggle for self determination. We are already outsiders.

    62. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave 2 says:
      12 November, 2015 at 9:52 am
      Ruby 9.21

      But you’ve not really told us what toryboys in your neck of UKOK, south east is it, think about this full on red/blue toryboy monstering of Scotland’s electoral choices, as in, The SNP grievance machine, whiners, perma-grievance politics etc

      Think its going to work sensible? As you know, Scotland currently has to listen to BBC Scotland in particular tell us how shite we are at everything, which may ease off a bit if they can actually get a red tory like Dugdale in to office, or maybe not.

      Thoughts sensibledave 2?

    63. Petra says:

      @ Nana says at 9:39 am ”Petra thank you for your own links. I love it when folk take my links and add their own. That is the power of Wings, ideas take flight and information shared.”

      How true Nana. Educating ourselves and others along the way. It’s the Scottish version of, and antithetical to, Westminster’s interpretation of ‘pulling and sharing’.

    64. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Nana I,ve been busy with Maryhill Foodbank buisness,& car troubles, I wasent venturing out in the rain in Edinburgh, but watched Carmichael hearing online. I do read as much of the post as I can, so,s tommorow its Foodbank distrabution, Sat toy appeal at Candleriggs, then wrapping presents at Maryhill ( want to give us a hand)lol.

    65. Dorothy Devine says:

      Ronnie , your shed is bloomin’ lovely!

      Andrew McLean , you say the Herald is in trouble – how much trouble? Lots and lots I hope!

      This would be a good time for us all to stop buying or clicking on the damned thing in the hope that the final push is a great big shove!

    66. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “Scotland’s electoral choices, as in, The SNP grievance machine, whiners, perma-grievance politics etc”

      The American Declaration of Independence was basically just a good moan and a long list of grievances.

      Did the trick, though! 🙂

    67. Sinky says:

      @ Ruby says:

      Iain Macwhirter’s article in Herald to-day re Brown and Major speaking out against tax credits somehow omits to mention Labour’s own goal of voting against taking responsibility for tax credits out of Tory control and passing it to the Scottish Parliament.

      Is there a conspiracy of silence by our newspapers and broadcastings over Ian Murray and all other Labour MPs voting with the Tories on tax credits?

    68. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 10.24

      “But you’ve not really told us what toryboys in your neck of UKOK, south east is it, think about this full on red/blue toryboy monstering of Scotland’s electoral choices, as in, The SNP grievance machine, whiners, perma-grievance politics etc

      Heedy, I’ve told you umpteen times – but you either don’t read – and you simply refuse to understand.

      Let me try to help you understand. Tell me what you know of the issues facing people living in say, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire.

    69. Another Union Dividend says:

      A handy bit of info when engaging with right wing trolls

      Business for Scotland has been voted the top business and financial blog in the UK.

      The blog topped the rankings ahead of stiff competition from nine others, including the UK’s so-called “Money Expert” Martin Lewis and David Smith, economics editor of the Sunday Times.

      Vuelio said: “Business for Scotland is a business community and business policy think tank for Scottish businesses. Aiming to ‘educate, inform, engage and persuade’, the site was formed by Gordon Macintyre-Kemp in May 2011 and has been at the heart of the Scottish political debate over the last 12 months. Will it still be a “UK blog” in 2016?”

      The Vuelio Social Media Index ranks the most influential blogs across a variety of topics and interests.

      http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scottish-business-buzz-12-11-15/

    70. Capella says:

      @ Petra
      Same with sport. Eilish McColgan and Libby Clegg not getting Olympic level funding this year for Rio. With Russian athletes banned and Scottish ones having to hitch a lift to Rio Team GB should stand a better chance of medals?
      https://archive.is/MHcss

    71. galamcennalath says:

      Sinky says:

      “Is there a conspiracy of silence by our newspapers and broadcastings over Ian Murray and all other Labour MPs voting with the Tories on tax credits?”

      It would certainly look that way. They made the whole ‘SNP can mitigate’ a big story, yet this follow up ‘Labour make the situation worse’ story, which should be even bigger, is no where.

      The right word has to be “conspiracy” rather than coincidence.

      The underlying question Is, ‘by what mechanism is such consensus coordinated’ … Who wields this power, In other words?

    72. Ruby says:

      DerekM says:
      12 November, 2015 at 10:21 am
      how about a scrotum of journalists

      And sensible Dave is correct for once if you mess up your email address (ie put a coma instead of a dot which is an easy mistake to make)it will give you a new avatar.

      Ruby replies

      TUT! What a killjoy! I was having fun winding up ‘sensible dave’

    73. heedtracker says:

      Heedy, I’ve told you umpteen times – but you either don’t read – and you simply refuse to understand.

      Another weak toryboy dodges very hard NOT questions. Come on sensibledave 2 or is it 3 today sensible?

      What do you, a hard core toryboy in the south east of teamGB land think of the far right toryboy attacks up there in this one WoS compilation?

      Its not hard sensibledave 2.

      Here’s another far right toryboy ragin awa at those who just will not stop voting SNP! its pure undistilled red/blue toryboy outrage, as he heads for the greatest unelected trough in the world, the House of Lords, mmmm, free money, for life, nom nom nom. its the UKOK way.

      http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/centralising-illiberal-catastrophic-the-snps-one-party-state/

      “Imagine that the ruling party controlled 95 per cent of MPs, and policed the political culture through a voluntary army of internet fanatics who seek out and shout down dissent”

      Shrieks far right in Scotland toryboy as it cab get, before you hit the lodge.

      So sensibledave 2, you’re up…

    74. Jaygee says:

      O/T perhaps.
      I don’t remember there being a discussion on this site regarding the other source of income the press have. That is Govt.,council and other publicly funded agencies advertising.

      Who decides which paper gets this income. I’m sure the people participating in this blog appreciate the leverage available to these agencies.

    75. Molly says:

      Actually Sensible Dave, just had an article by George Monbiot drop into my emails, where he discusses Oxfordshire in detail.

      A man by the name of David Cameron has written to complain, he is ‘ disappointed’ by the councils proposals to make “significant cuts to frontline services- from elderly day centres, to libraries, to museums.”

      He asks “why Oxfordshire has not focused on making back office savings”? Or sold off its property no longer required?

      The council leader did point out they have already done this , cutting 40% of its most senior staff , 2800 jobs in total.

      Mr Cameron then claimed the ‘ cumulative cuts in the county since 2010 amount to 210m .

      This is not the cumulative figure this is the annual figure!

      What’s also interesting and I’ve just checked on FT.com, in 2009/10 council inspections in England made to local factories etc was 56, 175.

      In 2013/4 this was slashed by 91% to just over 4,900 with ” 53 councils opting to abandon procedure altogether”

      Been trying to clarify whether health and safety was devolved in the Scotland Bill but if inspections are down in England by 91% , it will be interesting to know why not .

    76. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 10.53

      I note, once again, that you didn’t read my comment – and you have clearly not read any of my previous comments – or you wouldn’t keep repeating yourself.

    77. Nana says:

      http://theorkneyvole.com/2015/11/11/voles-down-south-thank-you-for-getting-us-this-far-home-soon/

      I feel if Carmichael gets away with it then mps will basically be given the green light to lie as much as they want.
      Mind you would anyone notice.

      Seems the lib dems like to keep their party dirty…

      http://www.buzzfeed.com/sirajdatoo/the-libs-dems-have-just-elected-lord-rennard-to-its-governin?bftwuk&utm_term=.uvWgvx1dr#.qo2y4NDrv

    78. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      12 November, 2015 at 10:58 am
      Heedy 10.53

      Chicken sensibledave 2. cluck cluck. Ask a toryboy a simple question, he runs away.

      Or as future Lord Tomkinski of Ljubljana says, you’re getting the “policed the political culture through a voluntary army of internet fanatics who seek out and shout down dissent” treatment.

      Dear dearie me sensibledave 2.

      To be fair though sensibledave, you’re nothing like as bad as far right toryboy creep outs like the above Spectator nutter, But like him, you are no doubt being paid.

    79. Onwards says:

      Tam Jardine says:
      12 November, 2015 at 12:41 am

      So a referendum where the majority of people wanted a minimum of devo-max followed by a lanslide election where the SNP won demanding the substantial powers promised including full fiscal autonomy ie devo max.

      We could have election after election on this but England decides what level of devolution we receive.

      —–

      But we have never had a referendum on what level of home rule Scots want.

      SNP MP’s were elected for all sorts of reasons, including generally standing up for Scottish interests.

      45% wanted independence but no-one can prove what exactly the 55% want.

      Until we have a referendum question on a specific amount of powers, we can’t say this is the will of the Scottish people.

      Yes, devolved powers are negotiable, but we could have a question along the lines of:

      “Do you support the Scottish Government negotiating a devolution agreement with the UK government where the following powers are devolved to the Scottish Parliament: ?”

      Then we have a genuine public mandate that is harder to ignore.

      The way I see it, the Scottish Government cannot just go into this Holyrood election with no short-term progress promised on the constitution. They need to be the aspirational party.

      I don’t how the SNP can credibly refuse the limited new powers on offer, but it needs to be made clear they are inadequate to grow the tax base, and need to be upgraded as soon as possible.

      A ‘Devo-Plus’ referendum might even get support from Labour and Tories here. If not Ruth Davidson, then many actual Tory voters, when they see they are getting hit with higher personal income taxes because of no alternatives.

    80. Edward says:

      Not sure if this has been suggested
      But for my input, would suggest a collective noun for journalists is ‘A Sphincter of Journalists’

      After all they usually talk out of it and/or are half way up each others 😀

      Try saying to a journalist ‘a sphincter says what?’ and see what they say, most likely they will say ‘what?’

    81. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Onwards [I don’t how the SNP can credibly refuse the limited new powers on offer, but it needs to be made clear they are inadequate to grow the tax base, and need to be upgraded as soon as possible.

      A ‘Devo-Plus’ referendum might even get support from Labour and Tories here. If not Ruth Davidson, then many actual Tory voters, when they see they are getting hit with higher personal income taxes because of no alternatives].

      Was that Scotland Bill farce not enough to convine you, we,re 2nd class.

      Dont whatever you do try reversing a Tandem.

      There is no Devo Whatever.

    82. Jack Murphy says:

      Sinky said at 10:35 am 12th November
      @ Ruby says:

      “Iain Macwhirter’s article in Herald to-day re Brown and Major speaking out against tax credits somehow omits to mention Labour’s own goal of voting against taking responsibility for tax credits out of Tory control and passing it to the Scottish Parliament.”

      Is there a conspiracy of silence by our newspapers and broadcastings over Ian Murray and all other Labour MPs voting with the Tories on tax credits?”

      Worth e Re-post from me—-NEVER FORGET—
      The Labour Party alliance with the Tories on Tax Credits,AND the newspapers’/broadcasters’ silence.
      NEVER FORGET.

    83. Ananurhing says:

      Edward

      Ananurhing says:

      11 November, 2015 at 5:10 pm
      Lanarkist.
      Collective noun for journalists.
      A Sphincter?

      Given that was the first and last word on the matter, I’d say that suggestion is carried.

    84. K1 says:

      O/T I’ve deliberately misspelled by email address by changing one letter in my address before sending this comment.

      The reason I am testing this is because as far as I’m aware askimet doesn’t allow a new person’s post to post right away, in effect it is moderating before allowing. Also I want to see if ma avatar is affected by the misspelling.

    85. Ken500 says:

      Do any of them have children?

      The reason for Wing’s success is it is Unionist free. They have wrecked every other website.

      Thanks again Rev Stu.

      The ‘Scottish’ Bill is irrelevant. It changes nothing. Everything remains the same. It is impossible to make relevant change without control over spending.

    86. K1 says:

      It’s been an hour and a half since I posted a comment with one letter misspelled in my email address.

      The comment I posted has not appeared, so far.

      I did this to test whether askimet moderates a ‘new’ email address and if and when it allows it through whether the avatar is altered from the posters ‘assigned’ correct email address.

      I’m now going to test whether a spelling error in my ‘screen name’ has the same effect.

      As this is now a ‘dead’ thread hopefully no one is around watching my investigation. I’m attempting to find out how it is anyone can have three different avatars appear on any thread and be the same ‘person’.

      Boring but interesting (for me)…not intellectually stimulating though.
      🙂

    87. crazycat says:

      @ Dave McDave at 10.11

      The problem with the images that Sandra White retweeted is not so much their detail as their style.

      Rupert Murdoch is not Jewish. But he is depicted pulling the strings of political figures in exactly the same way that Jewish bankers were shown (in cartoons, not photographs) controlling politicians in German publications in the 1930s.

      The cartoon also mimics the style of Der Stürmer – such images are inextricably associated with anti-Semitism. The portrayal of pigs, which are neither kosher nor halal, is an added insult to both Jews and Muslims. (I rather like pigs, so it saddens me that they are used as symbols of greed and venality and dirt.)

      There is of course a difference between being opposed to the actions of the Israeli government and being anti-Semitic (though the two are not mutually exclusive), but those images are not making that distinction.

    88. K11 says:

      I’m posting this with an altered ‘screen name’, with my correct email address.

      Again to see if askimet moderates the comment, thus delaying its posting, and also to see if the avatar is changed by this.

      I’m also interested in the time delays between posting as either a ‘new’ ‘screen name’ with same email address, or ‘new’ email address with the same screen name.

      So this comment should show up at some point as K11 rather than K1. Or not at all.

      When I posted my correct email and correct screen name, my comment appeared within a moment of posting. Let’s see how long this one takes. (yes I am talking to maself).

    89. crazycat says:

      @ K1

      I would expect a different e-mail address to trigger moderation and a different username not to. (I’m interested in the outcome of your tests, even if no-one else is!)

      The sensible one’s multiple avatars are not new, however, so any moderation of his “mistakes” will have taken place some time ago and both/all his addresses will now be recognized straight away.

    90. K1 says:

      Yes, that makes sense crazy cat, as we can see, my altered ‘screen name’ has not resulted in moderation or change of avatar.

      So his former ’email’ mistakes are now recognised as himself because askimet does not moderate it as a ‘new’ email address.

      So, it’s not the screen name that triggers a new avatar.

      It’s the email that triggers new avatars, he has posted under ‘misspelled’ emails that askimet now recognises as ‘known’. Each misspelled email has triggered a unique avatar.

      Ergo three different avatars when he posts.

      Well, I think that is that crazycat. Mystery solved.

      There’s only one sensibledave. Let’s face it one’s enough.

      My ‘misspelled’ email post from midday ‘should’ now show up at some point with a different avatar.

      Case closed.

    91. Taranaich says:

      @Angra Mainyu: Taranaich, no offence intended, I appreciate your response and I usually find what you say illuminating, but it seems to me there’s a contradiction in sayin “never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” and then going on to conclude with “we’ll only get a thrashing if we don’t wise up, and realise there’s only one way to make sure the Tories can never hurt Scotland again.”

      On one hand you seem to be suggesting we do nothing and on the other suggesting we do something (without saying what exactly).

      No offense intended, but I am suggesting nothing of the sort: to be perfectly clear, I am suggesting that there is a time to let the enemy make mistakes, and a time to act. A argument could be made for both, but I think the sheer audacity and outrage we’ve been seeing speaks for itself.

      I don’t know why you take “never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake” to mean “allow any transgressive behaviour.” If we allow transgressive behaviour to stand, then it isn’t a mistake, because they got away with it. The point is that we don’t let them get away with it at a point where we can actually do something about it. It’s not letting people walk all over us, it’s strategising for the best opportunity to act.

      The Scotland Bill has to be ratified by the Lords, and subsequently agreed by Holyrood. Neither of those things are guaranteed: we know the Lords are looking to block devolution of abortion laws, and the SNP have voted against “devolution” when they felt it was either detrimental or unnecessarily expensive without accompanying powers (food labelling, for example.)

      To further military metaphors: when the cavalry’s charging and you have pikemen, you don’t send the pikemen forward to charge with their swords: you get them to stay put, dig in, and let the horsemen skewer themselves on your spears. There is a difference between standing strong in the knowledge that the over-confident and enthusiastic enemy think they will run you down, and laying down your arms and letting the horses ride over you. That will only happen if we simply meekly accept the Scotland Bill, do everything Gordon Brown suggests, and just let it destroy Scotland further. Do you really think the SNP will let that happen?

      I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt then and assume you are wrong.

      Whether I am right or wrong can be verified as follows: in the next 2 or 3 weeks I will guarantee you they move towards dismantling Barnett.

      What if I agree with you that they will move towards dismantling Barnett?

      Once again – interrupting a mistake is not the same as letting them get away with it.

    92. DerekM says:

      @ Ruby

      sorry Ruby i just thought it should be pointed out that even a zoomer liberal eejit like our sensible Dave can get something right once in a blue moon lmao

    93. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 11.10

      “…. But like him, you are no doubt being paid.”

      Heedy, have you ever stopped for one minute to imagine what it is like to KNOW exactly who you are, what you do, and who pays you – whilst some loony keeps telling you that you are someone else? At the same time, the loony doesn’t actually discuss anything, they just keep writing the same twaddle, post after post, without rference to anything I might have written in response. Remember Heedy, I asked you what issues the people in Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire are concerned about?

    94. Tam Jardine says:

      Louis.b.argyll

      Yes – well put. It is a whimsical notion, but my point is that unions of countries are not evil in themselves, but a union between two distinct countries with such a disparity in population is not Working for us.

      I hate the term ‘separatist’ as it suggests an insular outlook, much as the term ‘unionist’ is wholly inadequate for people with absolutely no love for the idea of a union between Scotland and England. There are plenty of imperialists we call unionists.

      Those amongst us who are vehement supporters of the imperialists of Westminster up here – I don’t know what term to use but it ain’t a good look

    95. Tam Jardine says:

      Onwards

      Thanks for responding but I can’t bear to repeat my earlier post. We will never be given devo max and if the events of this week have not convinced you of that, nothing will.

    96. Andrew McLean says:

      Sensible dave

      I know what bugs the good burghers of Oxford, I know the town well so I can speak with personal knowledge here, actually there is hardly a town in England I haven’t walked through or worked in, or Wales for that matter, similarly there isn’t a local authority department I haven’t had a coffee and biscuit in, or very rarely been chucked out off. So what’s your point?

    97. sensibledave says:

      Andrew 2.54

      … you know I am happy to engage with most people, most of the time. On this occasion, I am trying to pursue a point with Heedy (vain hope I know) so I will wait for Heedy.

    98. Ruby says:

      Are there no forums in Oxford/England where ‘sensible dave’ could go to discuss politics?

      It seems very strange that he comes onto Wings to discuss politics.

    99. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      12 November, 2015 at 2:33 pm
      Heedy 11.10

      “…. But like him, you are no doubt being paid.”

      You’re an activist and that’s fine sensibledave 2. So once again

      But you’ve not really told us what toryboys in your neck of UKOK, south east is it, think about this full on red/blue toryboy monstering of Scotland’s electoral choices, as in, The SNP grievance machine, whiners, perma-grievance politics etc

      Think its going to work sensible?

      Youre probably not aware of how its all UKOK going up here but

      https://www.holyrood.com/articles/news/polling-shows-snp-leads-scottish-labour-34-cent-constituency-vote

      You’re probably the kind of toryboy so self aware you have no idea how much you’re doing for Scottish independence, nothing at all or rather a lot sensibledave 2.

      Keep it coming toryboy!

    100. K1 says:

      I think it was established on the thread were he threw a complete tantrum Ruby, that he is here for ‘intellectual stimulation’, as he isn’t get any in his neck of the woods.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/scottish-labour-party-of-the-day/

      When I pointed out to him that he described coming onto Wings as also lacking in ‘intellectual stimulation’, I could only surmise by his summary of what it’s like for him to have nae pals tae talk to about politics, cause they all pretty much agree with each other (58% Tory vote). That of course it must be the case that he Does come onto Wings for ‘intellectual stimulation’.

      Of course other questions were also put to him, regarding his reasons for voting Tory, much as Heed repeatedly asks, but he never answers those. As he prefers to insult everyone who does not see it his way, and then flounce off in a big cream puff.

      I keep asking him: Why do you vote Tory dave?

      But he just won’t answer that, as his contorted logic forces him to be of the view that we are all English hating freaks when we ask simple questions regarding his being on Wings, and regarding his political stance on various subjects under discussion. He goes into a complete rage and tells people they are idiots, pathetic, racist et al.

      Which when you think about it, is a bit ‘strange’, cause this is a politics blog were people speak to each other about politics?

      And not only that, this is The Number One Scottish Independence site on these isles and he keeps coming on here and telling everyone that they are wrong not because they are, mind you, because he says they are.

      Which isn’t really a ‘debating’ stance as far as I can work out, just an immature outburst of someone who deems ‘irrational rants’ as not helpful, but indulges in said behaviour when no one agrees with him, or has the common sense to dispute his contorted logic.

      So you’d think he would ‘engage’ so’s at least he could get some of that ‘intellectual stimulation’ that is so lacking in his neck of the woods?

      But nah…

      Now he’d rather chase Heed about the threads, cause I think he’s his favourite right now. Heed seems to provide some sort of ‘stimulation’ for dave, but I don’t even think dave understands what it is about Heed that drives him so wild…

      …you old devil Heed…you had him at ‘toryboy’ 😉

    101. K1 says:

      On a less frivolous note. I think he’s lonely. And he enjoys the attention.

    102. Ken500 says:

      Perhaps Alex-Iain Cochersall could disclose exactly what Scotland spends £12Billion (the so called deficit) on in rest of the UK.

    103. heedtracker says:

      K1 says:
      12 November, 2015 at 7:26 pm
      I think it was established on the thread were he threw a complete tantrum Ruby

      Sensibledave 2 is merely a tory who loves the way the UK has worked out over the last say 30 years of red and blue toryboy rule. The only flaw really is that red and blue tory rule has made the south of east of England very rich indeed and that’s where sensibledave 2 is farting out his UKOK stuff from.

      Scotland running its own affairs in a PR democracy is probably not so good for rich south east of England and probably very good for Scotland. So Scottish independence just can’t be allowed to happen, not in red or blue toryboy world, as we all now know.

    104. K1 says:

      Quite Heed, he’s drawn to something though, do you really think he’s a paid up troll, or can he just not stand the ‘Scots’ seeing through the Tory red/blue fog, maybe he’s jealous of us? (smirky smiley thingy)

    105. Sensibledave says:

      ….. Been out, and now watching the mighty Quins kick some French (South African actually) butts around the Stoop on catch up. K1, Ruby and Dumbheed. – I’ll touch base tomorrow and continue your education. Heedy, got an answer on October and bucks yet – or haven’t you got something you can cut and paste on that subject?

    106. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Sensibledave.

      Have you ever thought of getting involved in the discussions at this English blog?

      http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/

    107. sensibledave says:

      Brian 11.27

      …… Been there, done that. Helena Brown (a regular here) is regular troll there!

    108. Sensibledave says:

      …. Check out the comments on the “12 things you should know about Tory Tax Credit cuts”. You will see reasonable people arguing politics and policy – without rancour. Apart from Helena!

    109. heedtracker says:

      K1, sensibledave’s a blue tory activist probably. Appear like Joe Bloggs concern trolling then all of sudden technical stuff that really only activists know and care about blurts out. And why not.

      Blue toryboys are extremely well funded so there will be a few of them hanging Cif’s like WoS. Dirty deeds done dirt cheap, then moved on to greater things, right sensibledave 2?

    110. K1 says:

      I see your point Heed…from what he said to BDTT he’s certainly familiar with other blogs…something disnae add up right enough.

      ***long spoon fetched from drawer…***

    111. K1 says:

      Sensibledave does hold some interesting views, he can’t seem to fathom that the people btl on AAV, on the article he cites above, are outlining exactly what many have outlined on Wings.

      The couple of people he ‘chats’ with are very economically literate and understand the wealth being sucked upwards at the cost of the poor and vulnerable being left with a pittance. All under Tory (There Is No Alternative) austerity measures.

      But dave doesn’t insult them or throw tantrums, he just ‘slips away’, because he can grasp what they are on about and sniffs the air realising they are getting too close to discovering his shallow outlook, disguised as ‘intelligent discourse’.

      And when his support for the Tories comes under the spotlight, that’s the signal…he’s gone. Never answers that question. Has nothing to say in response to the actual content that is being raised atl and obsfucates within the btl comments. Avoiding genuine dialogue, meanwhile going on about how ‘honest’ or ‘genuine’ he is in what he is sharing.

      Is it because they are ‘English’ that you don’t attack them with your absurdly insulting patronising condescending shit dave?

      One of your views I found enlightening was this little gem:

      ‘Rarely, is the other end of “fairness” discussed. Just how much money should the state take from the earnings of an individual, in any circumstances? If a Consultant Surgeon is working hard and earning, because of his skill and experience, £250k per annum, How much money should we, in all “fairness”, take off him/her in taxes? 60%? 70%? What about being “fair” to him or her? At what point have we crossed the line from fairness – to exploitation? I don’t expect to receive much support here for those views!’

      You really do have to wonder about him being some sort of ‘ordinary’ Tory. This is a deeply ‘unnatural’ view to hold unless you are one of those in that ‘bracket’ yourself/ mix with those who hold such views. IMO.

      A Tory on stilts.

      Or as Heed suggests, a troll…swimming about btl with an ugly agenda.

      So, that’s the end of my own personal investigation of sensibledave.

      Here’s my final word to or about you dave:

      Guid luck tae ye, an a wish ye nae harm.

    112. sensibledave says:

      K1 7.57

      So, assuming you read through that thread, what did you find?

      Did you find a Tory Activist? Did you find someone who toed a “party line”. Did you find someone who praised the implementation plans of the Tories on WTC? Did you find someone espousing different views to those I have expressed here on Wings? Did you find someone looking for a fight – or someone, reasonably intelligently, debating specific issues with other interesting people? Even though I was clearly in a minority, did you see the way people debated with me – arguing points, debating philosophical approaches with me – without resorting to insult?

      You wrote “This is a deeply ‘unnatural’ view to hold unless you are one of those in that ‘bracket’ yourself/ mix with those who hold such views. IMO.”

      … and there is your problem K1. You find it impossible to understand that someone might care about “fairness” when that fairness doesn’t apply to themselves! Every elector has the right to be expected to be treated fairly K1. Although the Consultant Surgeon earns over 8 times as much as me – I believe he should still be treated fairly. You don’t care about him, he probably doesn’t vote for the party that you support – so squeeze him until the pips squeak is your preferred option. And your only rationalisatio for me holding that view isthat I must be one of “them” – and to care about the Consultant Surgeon is “unnatural”.

      That, my friend, highlights a huge difference between you and me.

      Anyway, I trust you will pass on your investigation report to Heedy – not that it will make any difference though. As I write, Heedy will already be working on a new theory.

      BTW, on the two avatar thing, when I use my iphone to make a post, I have noted that it automatically puts capital letters at beginning of ones name and email address.

      If I look above, I sometimes see sensibledave with a capital “S”. … ooops Heedy and Ruby! – another paranoid obsession blown out of the water!

    113. Ruby says:

      It’s pretty sad that ‘sensible dave’ has to post on Wings.

      What on earth is happening in England. Do people not talk about politics?

      It’s pretty worrying that people in England who are interested in politics have to resort to posting on Wings.

      The reason it is pretty worrying is because we here in Scotland are reliant on the English electorate to make all the decisions on our behalf.

      Here in Scotland we have English votes for Everything.

      What I would suggest ‘sensible dave’ do is set up a blog where people living in England can have a decision about politicians. He could call it ‘MUST GRUMBLE”

    114. Ruby says:

      If ‘sensible dave’ doesn’t like the idea of calling his blog ‘MUST GRUMBLE’ he could call it ‘Wings Over England’

      He could help inform the English electorate (who we are so reliant on to make the right decision ) that they should have a good look at what is being written in the newspapers and whether or not they are being well and truly manipulated by the ‘perception managers’ in the MSM.

      Perhaps the real reason ‘sensible dave’ is posting on Wings is because he is terrified to look at what is happening in England.

      Wings is where ‘sensbile dave’ comes to bury his head in the sand.

    115. Ruby says:

      Ooops typo sorry I’m multi-tasking. I’m bit short of time.

      What I would suggest ‘sensible dave’ do is set up a blog where people living in England can have a discussion about politics. He could call it ‘MUST GRUMBLE”

    116. sensibledave says:

      Ruby – regarding various illogical, contradictory, rants above.

      Good Morning Rubes.

      The SNP has 55 elected representatives at Westminster. The duly elected SNP MPs are part of a 650 odd elected representatives who gather together at Westminster (which is the only place in the whole of the UK where laws are made that affect me) to determine the laws that will affect me.

      Wings is a place where supporters of a party that wishes to affect the laws, that affect me, often gather together.

      I accept that you, personally, don’t want that situation to continue, however, I assume that you will at least accept that it is the case?

      Given that the SNP is involved in UK-wide politics and Wings is a political blog, why shouldn’t anyone in the UK “engage” with the good people here on Wings?

      What are you afraid of Ruby? Why don’t you want your politics and ideology challenged? Why are you so upset if someone disagrees with you on a particular subject matter? Is it that you can’t handle, or are not used to, dissenting voices? Is it that you don’t have the ability to argue your case coherently, so you would rather people were barred than you actually having to think about things?

      I have taken my time to consider your offer of a date. On balance, I think we may have some compatibility issues. So it with deep regret that I have to politely refuse the offer. Please understand though its not you, its me!

    117. K1 says:

      I know the difference between those less fortunate than myself dave, and those who are more fortunate. Nice twisted logic though.

      I don’t defend those on salaries that are beyond the means of the majority of people, who are being crushed by the policies being implemented under a Tory government hell bent on decimating our Social Security system.

      I defend those who are on the receiving end of this: “There Is No Alternative” austerity agenda by the Tories.

      Because it is ‘unfair’ that those at the bottom end of the salary distribution system in the UK, are quite literally having to go to food banks to feed themselves because no matter how hard they have worked, they still can’t make ends meet.

      It is ‘unfair’ that those who need support because they find themselves unemployed, are being sanctioned for turning up 10 minutes late for an appointment, as a punitive regime replaces a once compassionate public service.

      It is ‘unfair’ that people who have long term mental and physical health issues are literally being ‘stressed’ to death. They are being targeted and driven to suicide because the authorities are telling them they ‘are fit to work’.

      It is ‘unfair’ that those who live in council homes are being targeted and driven from their homes because some fuckwit who has never known anything but privilege and financial security decided that having an extra bedroom has to be ‘taxed’ as a means of raising revenue?

      It is ‘unfair’ that those with the least to lose at the top end, are the very people who are ‘judging’ those with the least as the root cause of the problems that were caused by the profligate banking and financial sectors.

      And what is profoundly ‘unfair’ about all of this?

      Is that these are the people running the UK government.

      They are the millionaires, in government positions with their backers in industry and finance, who can take full advantage of every mechanism invented by lawmakers that allow them to hide their wealth, mask their taxes, offshore their loot, manipulate their expenses.

      These people are making these decisions that effect millions of lives with not an ounce of self awareness, not an iota of understanding of lives that they have never had to lead.

      And here you are wittering on about how you care about the surgeon and how you think you know where everyone ‘is coming from’.

      Your’e the political equivalent of ‘Shallow Hal’.

      You don’t address the salient issues dave, you’re more concerned with ‘how you come across’ than you are with the subject at hand.

      Please look at your own behaviour. You have repeatedly ‘resorted to insult’ on Wings when others take a differing view from you.

      It’s disgraceful by your own standards dave.

      No more dave. Our lines and light differ. That’s the best that can be said. Leave it at that.

    118. sensibledave says:

      K1 11.52

      You wrote “I know the difference between those less fortunate than myself dave, and those who are more fortunate… ”

      and “I don’t defend those on salaries that are beyond the means of the majority of people ….”

      So here’s the thing K1. Its a nice speech – but its total fantasy, idealogical codswallop. I know of no party that has serious hopes of getting MPs elected, – that agrees with you – including the SNP.!

      As an example, The SNP Manifesto says “Our approach is to secure a fair (note the word “fair K1) deal for all with those on the very highest incomes contributing a little bit more …”

      … “a little bit more” K1. Correct me if I am wrong, but in your myopic eyes, that means if you think 45% high rate tax is the right figure then you are greedy, selfish, rich loving, poor and sick hating b*****d – but if think it should be “a little bit more”, say 5% more, then you are sainted, fighter for the poor and sick and go straight to heaven – even if that 5% increase doesn’t actually raise any more tax!

      Just in case you didn’t understand me K1. I want the poor to have more, I want a better NHS and I want everyone to have a home – but I do not believe that we will achieve that based upon the politics of envy and hate.

      The way you achieve it is through a vibrant economy with low unemployment, living wages and increased tax coming in from people’s earnings and company profits.

      As was written by the Rev in his recent article:

      “…. But in a geographically tiny unitary state differential tax rates are wildly impractical, because it’s very easy for people – especially the wealthy who would be chiefly targeted – to move their tax address (and/or themselves entirely) out of Scotland”

      and he quoted a Prof who said:

      “… That depends on the buoyancy of the tax base, and equally of course, increasing rates of taxation doesn’t necessarily result in increased revenue. For example, if a future Scottish Government were to decide to increase the top rate of tax from 45p to 50p, then it would be facing the potential risk that those who are liable to that tax decide to move south of the border”.

      Those same issues apply to the whole of the UK. If the UK starts increases taxes then those that are in a position to react – will do so – history shows that.

      We can probably agree that it is extremely frustrating – but that is the world we live in – and we have to deal with that real world reality.

      So spare me your self-congratulatory speeches and your piousness about how much you “care” compared to me. Fortunately, you personally, and no one that agrees with you, will get anywhere near the levers of power to be able to indulge their idealogical fantasies.

      As you will have read on another site. I do not think that high rate tax rates should be political. Its not about politics it is about two things 1) raising cash 2) doing it fairly.

      Having taxes based upon hate and envy fails on both counts!

      If you disagree with me – take it up with the Rev.

    119. heedtracker says:

      Typical, creep back and get your shots in sensibledave 2

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/still-better-together/#more-78531

      “Its not about politics it is about two things 1) raising cash 2) doing it fairly.”

      So what about the above HMRC shyste on your Scotland region. vote NO save your job they were promised by unionists just like you sensible.

      Its clearly a political hit, boost tory vote in London, kick the sweaties hard.

      Or, why would any government pump so much more money and jobs into an already superheating south east of England economy sensibledave 2?

      Because its a red and blue toryboy world and everyone that doesn’t like it can fcuk off.

    120. K1 says:

      Yes Heed, that’s not at all about the politics of hate and punishment.

      That pooling and sharing thing is really working out well for Scotland…innit.

      Better together…Vote No for the ‘fairist’ Union of them all.

    121. sensibledave says:

      KI & Heedy

      Ha ha ! Sneeking?? How do you “sneek” onto a blog Heedy?

      I note that neither have you have got a response to my points – as usual!!!

      More importantly, I also note that neither of you have had the cajones to tell the Rev he is a hate preaching Blue Tory, UKOK, Brit Nat, Poor Hating, NHS destroyer, etc. because of his comments with regards to tax rates. Why is that?

    122. heedtracker says:

      Why is that?

      Modern psychiatry can work wonders sensibledave 2. Good luck with it all. UKOK

    123. sensibledave says:

      Heedy 4.03

      … haha Heedy. … I’ll take that as a win thank you!

    124. Gary45% says:

      Sensible Dave Yin or Twa.
      call you site Whinge over Engerland.
      Davyboy when the day of independence comes we will still love you.
      We are Scottish and don’t hold grudges, “unless you burst our space hopper.”

    125. heedtracker says:

      sensibledave says:
      13 November, 2015 at 4:37 pm
      Heedy 4.03

      … haha Heedy. … I’ll take that as a win thank you!

      In victory magnanimity in peace goodwill. So have a great weekend sensibledave and come back next week to give us vile separatists the sound thrashing we so richly deserved, as sensibledave 3.



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