The topics of the day
Posted on
September 26, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Can be discussed below. (We don’t know what they are, we’re on holiday.)
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26 09 14 09:26
The topics of the day | FreeScotland
Ignored
The inland shipping weather forecast?
“The inland shipping weather forecast”.
Darling flips house, strong to gale force,moving south. Lamont strings sentence together, low to nil, mind wandering, south south east.
To be continued……go on…
still bias on news reports – Greens membership doubled snp doubled but the numbers are vastly different – how to lie with statistics and even simple arithmetic
3rd Iraqi war, UKIP conference, Boris for PM, the areonautical attributes of pigs, westminster acting in the best interests of Scotland.
There, that’s enough to get the juices flowing.
As for the Inland shipping forecast I am sure that is a subject we canal join in.
(I’ll get my dressing gown)
Warm current of air coming in from the SNP regarding new membership surge.
Meanwhile chilly winds emanating from the Labour heartlands and icy blasts forming over liberal highlands.
Down south take cover as a barrage of farage is causing a shitstorm.
For those on holiday particularly near the coast be sure to cover up with sunblock as the sun has come out to play.
It appears that I have received an e-mail from the Weir Family donating £800,000 because they like me.
It is from an anonymous e-mail address in Australia! WURRAFUK.
Anyone receive the same wither don’t open it and pit it in the bin or if you do open it, do not reply or click any links and bin it.
JimnArlene
That’ll do, now discus.
UKIP progressing true to form, and feeding off the Rotherham tragedy on pretext of faux outrage. Lowlife scum.
Ukip’s Scottish MEP David Coburn admits to #C4News he didn’t vote in Scottish Referendum because he’s not registered to vote in Scotland.
https://twitter.com/MichaelLCrick/status/515407189302071296
Many knew this here already I guess, but it´s only real news now because London reports it. Oh well…
@BtP
Now discus? this is either an olympic sport or a small Amazonian fish. What a diverse crew we are.
SNP membership now 65,000 with 39,500 new recruits.
Watched Question Time last night.
Has anyone asked any Labour representatives exactly what they mean by devo max / quasi federal system as espoused by Gordon Brown?
A “vow” of silence more like from the North British Labour Party on the subject.
Mosstrooper
OK two sses!
You a teacher?
Predictive text programme.
🙂
Talking of the lowest of the low, BBC have broadcasted, BBC World during the night anyway, a voiced opinion from a Scottish girl / lady whose father was beheaded by IS.
She said we should wipe them off the map.
My comment about lowest of the low applies to the BBC, not the relative whose opinion is understandable.
To use her opinion as a political football is unforgivable
To compound the disgrace the lady had a Scottish voice.
Discus
Better than a javelin?
Ten minutes of Call Kaye this morning, quite enough. It’s about fracking to be allowed anywhere and as one caller said we gave up any control of energy policy, and much more, last Thursday. Hopefully the 55% will be the worst affected.
Dan huil says
“Discus
Better than a javelin?”
I have a question,
Is a pole vault a safe where you keep expensive poles?
Mosstrooper, get my dressing gown while your at it.
Friday. Day off no news is good news.
Crowd funder reached total within 20hrs.
PS
Ryder Cup for the folk like me not BBC or signed up to sky.
http://u-peak.me/sky4.html
Just back from Barcelona after sorrow of ref result.
My wife and I did our best to celebrate our 30th and for the most part it was a v/good substitute for reality for a while. But the feeling of the death of something beautiful was never far away; especially after the good old brittanic bampots in George Sq celebrated in their own vile and practiced hateful way.
(Never again should we witness such scenes in OUR land)
Let me tell you though, the personal feeling of shame in comparrison to being a normal person with normal issues coming from any normal country was paplable. It was hard to look Catalans in the eye; honestly.
People knew where you were from and what had just happend. You could see in there eyes the combined envy and pity in what had peacefully been arranged and then thrown away so easilly and stupidly.
Suspect if these fine people get such the chance it will be a ‘landslide YES’ as they have a favourable media in part at least.
Anyway just to say if you thought suffering 4 days of CNBC / BBC World News / Bloomberg was bad normally, try it on the back of an ‘indy ref’ where they are taking credit for the BIG money big boys lining up with the UK govt to reel in any upitty seperatists. Christ you could smell the champers through the TV glee at a united GB ( the Yanks were the worst)and that loudmouth idiot Obama at the UN; what a let down that clown is. Freedom is a great thing everywhere apparently escept Scotland ( What a tool).
The worst was coming back to ‘North Britain’ where in the past touching down at Glasgow left you with the feeling of being a ‘Stranger in a strange land’ via UK border control.
A few UKOK stickers soon helped the reality of our current sorry situation kick in. Well Scotland now I know.
Until Independence I will always remain a ‘Stranger’ in this new (voted for)’Strange Scot land’
(NB : Very proud of the Youth vote in Scotland but sooner we are shot of the Scots Greys ….)
Graham B
Ian wood wil be affecte alright. Probably to the tune of millions.
Quite frankly I think pressure should be heaped on the Daily Record editor for printing Devo-rubbish promises on behalf of Westminster without actually scrutinising what it means, and then leaving the issue as ‘job done’.
Of course I still think any Independence supporter should never buy the DR again. They are losing on average 10% of their circulation year-on-year so helping them meet their demise a bit sooner is something that can be done now.
• Don’t buy the Daily Record
• Stop paying the TV Licence
If the independence movement is serious about breaking the back of Unionism in Scotland then those two actions need to be carried through.
Another day, another day closer to Devo Max!
Right?
We told you so but just for the record…
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scottish-householders-rights-to-object-to-fracking-to-be-removed-108e.aspx
Have been contemplating reporting WoS to Trades Descriptions re their on-line shop wares…
My son bought me a T-shirt for Father’s Day (oh, he’s such a nice lad to his dad!)…but I’m REALLY disappointed. It’s just ‘700-year old stock’ … has ‘Hundred of us remain alive’ printed on it, whereas it should either say:
‘65,000 and counting…’
or
‘1.6 million + between 15 & 20% of the soft ‘NO’ vote, that can and will be loved back over due to the broken promises, lies and sheer downright imperialistic cheek of the British establishment (politicians and media) in their treatment of a national cause that is just not going to go away’
Thought I was serious for about half a sentence there didn’t you?!
What exciting times you’re living in ALBA these days – can’t believe how you’ve collectively picked yourself up from 7 days ago and have re-grouped with avengeance!
SO PROUD OF YOU ALL here in CYMRU/Wales.
@GrahamB,
We can stop them if we have the will.Protest and blockade.
But in other media things are happening.
Dr Bateman and Newsnet have plans. The written word and the spoken word. And we know of Jack Foster’s astonishing crowdfunder which gives great heart for getting something other than Pravda on our screens. Bella Caledonia are taking a long hard look at things; Common Weal too.
In the background there’s The Caledonian trying to get off the ground. And of course there’s the blogosphere, with The Rev leading the charge.
We need to think what might be possible to try and aim for here. Is it practical, leaving commercial aspects aside, for all of these to work under one umbrella? Are we better with three divisions – spoken word, eg Bateman Broadcasting; written word from all; and televisual with the Fear Factor boys?
I guess we’ll all happily chip in for all when requested. But how far can the structure go? Is one operational board likely to produce a working package? Can the logistics be brought together and made to work?
Should we, the consumers, leave it to the lead players to do as Bateman and Newsnet have done, and meet for a chat. How do we get all the players into one room at the same time and leave them to see what may emerge? Discuss.
Was thinking, Maybe the next S.N.P. party conference could be held outdoors as the numbers attending maybe huge.BBC Pacific Quay carparks possibly?
Re fracking. Just wait till the NO voters start bleating.
I was telling my friend about this long before the vote and she passed the info onto her daughter’s mum in law. They live in a beautiful area which has a small loch beside their home. They didn’t believe fracking would be allowed in Scotland so I guess they will be objecting now.
Hey Ho you reap what you sow.
Let’s unite the UK. Let’s go and bomb some people. Feckers.
It’s one thing to ‘move on’, quite another to ignore the absurd. No matter how irritating for many on here it may be to raise it, but does it seem irrational to suggest that one area of the ref ballot that was not independently monitored was the final tally of YES and NO votes? Let’s put it this way, should it have been?
GrahamB says: 26 September, 2014 at 9:35 am:
“Ten minutes of Call Kaye this morning, quite enough. It’s about fracking to be allowed anywhere and as one caller said we gave up any control of energy policy, and much more, last Thursday. Hopefully the 55% will be the worst affected.”
Had Kaye wi the wan, ‘e’, on the radio but was through the kitchen making a cuppa. I though I heard her claim, “We are net importers of oil & Gas”. I shot off an email pointing out Scotland is a net exporters of both and England, (a.k.a, The Uk, a.k.a Great Britain), are the net importers. Which means we are subsidising England/UK/Britain.
“I need to be alone. I need to ponder my shame and my despair in seclusion; I need the sunshine and the paving stones of the streets without companions, without conversation, face to face with myself, with only the music of my heart for company.”
? Henry Miller, Tropic of Cancer
@john king says:26 September, 2014 at 9:37 am:
“I have a question,
Is a pole vault a safe where you keep expensive poles?
Mosstrooper, get my dressing gown while your at it.”
Nah! John, you got the spelling wrong it is, “Poll Vault”, and it is where the Westmionster, (de facto parliament of England), hide the real results of Scottish referendums.
It is situated just next to the vault where they hide McCrone Reports, Correct Scottish Oil reserve forcasts and such like.
Chinese crabs invade scottish waters
Robert Peffers says
“Nah! John, you got the spelling wrong it is, “Poll Vault”, and it is where the Westmionster, (de facto parliament of England), hide the real results of Scottish referendums.
It is situated just next to the vault where they hide McCrone Reports, Correct Scottish Oil reserve forcasts and such like.”
SHHHH
If Morag hears you she’ll come for us,
you dont want Morag on you case Bob it aint pretty 🙁
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfJiPPsHJEQ
Shipping forecast:
The depression that gripped scotland is moving away to the south to be replaced by a freshening system that should cool temperatures.
The recent erratic behaviour of the Thames estuary bullshit stream seems to have dissipated in a return to familiar patterns and the coming months seem to herald a reaping of the whirlwind originating in the Middle East.
Labour, lib dem, Tory sectors forecasting fair-hellish.
Back to war in Iraq possibly this time to protect Tory Blair’s Oil shares, we know he make millions off them and pays less than 10% tax but how many others got shares in Iraqi oil also
Interesting line from John McTernan in article on hootsmon.
“The real political news is elsewhere. UKIP are looking for two by-election scalps – in Tory Clacton and Labour Heywood and Middleton”.
I wouldn’t wish Ukip on anyone but if they take those two then huge opportunity to sell prospect of Tory/Ukip coalition after next GE in May. That could be a huge vote boosted for a One Scotland platform.
Had a wee twitter exchange with Ken MacDonald last night. It seems those nice BBC Scotland programmers have shafted him again. His RS Headlines programme, which had been shown in the schedule for return this Sunday morning (Huzzah!), has been downgraded to late Saturday night (Booo, hissss). Bar Stewards.
I’ve hunted through the schedule and see that the terrible Crossfire is still with us on Sunday, but no sign of Ken either this Saturday or next.
I suspect the hand of London in this.
I picked this one up from somewhere, I think it was on Newsnet Scotland but not sure as I had cut and pasted several notes to myself from my morning’s news trawl into notepad.
This is a cite to a site on setting up a freeview channel. I haven’t read it all yet so cannot really comment yet : –
http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/86325/36558_DUK_Guide_for_launching_a_channel_on_DTT_V4_Arial_font.pdf
gordoz.. that’s no really the attitude.. plenty of the elderly voted yes too. But Gordon Brown (huchtoo) put them in fear for their pensions. Anyway, have a look at what’s happening around ‘the 45’ (which is surely rapidly approaching the 50 already) and remember the sun shines on the righteous.
Had an interesting conversation about Scottish politics at the weekend with someone who had forgotten a certain politician’s name.
OTHER GUY: Ach, ye ken who ah mean. That wummin wae a mooth lik a burnt-oot fuse box.
ME: Johann Lamont?
OTHER GUY: Aye, that’s her.
Just a couple of todays news stories…
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/opinion-Simple-paragraph-end-domination-Scotland/story-23004424-detail/story.html
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/molly-harvey-and-john-harvey/after-vote
Have not read all comments but the article in the Independent is quite revealing. If the over 65’s had been excluded from voting in the Referendum the result would have been a 55% + for Yes, This I think clearly shows the fear-mongering was a factor with the elderly, are the 3 stooges proud of their achievement, scaring our old folk, I for one will not let them get away with it. I have heard the Proclaimers have a new hit song on the way ,its dedicated to all those companies whose comments were intimidating it goes like this Barrhead Travel NO MORE, Standard Life NO MORE , RBS NO More, Asda NO MORE. and an Icecream & Crisp manufacturer from the North East NO MORE. Lets show them what the repercussions can be for trying to intimidate us
At least the Rev’s got holiday money
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/25/scotsman-pays-out-wings-over-scotland-over-accusations-against-founder-rev-stuart
The Director General of the BBC has confirmed that despite Pacific Quay sitting on a viable drill site, the Scottish Government will not grant an exploration license.
Tomorrows headline today:
Salmond finally tells BBC: Frack off.
(one for Battlestar Galactica fans there!)
This got a great reaction yesterday, but events have overwhelmed recent threads, so here’s a re-post of Richie Venton’s latest blog entry.
Stirring stuff –
‘The Struggle Continues…’
http://richieventon.blogspot.co.uk/
Heard a wee bit of “Call Kaye” this morning. Guy was talking about energy policy being held in London but that he didn’t recall fracking being raised as an issue during the Indyref campaign. I decided to waste 10p and text to the effect that this could be due to the fact that the news agencies involved in setting the agenda didn’t want it discussed. Doubt that it would get read out…..
Looking forward to more trustworthy and objective journalism from the projects such as that proposed by the Dateline Scotland duo.
Earthquakes forecast right across Central Scotland after torrential downpour of fracking licenses.
At least the Rev’s got holiday money
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/25/scotsman-pays-out-wings-over-scotland-over-accusations-against-founder-rev-stuart
We are being given all the conversational ammunition we need to get our country out of the clutches of these vile, greedy, lying evil bastards in westminster.
Its just a pity that too many people were apathetic, timid, gullible and downright ignorant to make it happen this time. We could have avoided a lot of damage.
However i am preparing myself bit by bit with information and facts, because i intend to take on any future debate i have head on and win it thoroughly for Scottish independence through sheer weight of facts.
What is great is that the people who know that our independence is vital are not suffering from a lack of passion, its keeping it in control thats hard!
Wait till your well-to-do why-take-risks types have their home devalued and their health impaired due to fracking underneath them. When the pensions are cut. The oil is already now looking much more longer-term than was sold during the campaign. ‘Vows’ broken. NHS being whittled away. Etc.
Its going to be bitter sweet these ‘I told you so moments’ isnt it? But I intend to capitalize on every single falsehood and gently make everyone I know (and people i meet) who was ‘no’ leaning feel as foolish as they have proven themselves.
How anyone could have believed what was being spun, given the last few decades, is still beyond me. I guess when/if i do understand that ill have a deeper knowledge of the human mind because for now i just cant grasp it.
Ok, just musing onto my keyboard.
Regarding a new channel for ordinary people to be able to watch what’s really happening in Scotland..
Could we even have a mainstream channel set up that even starts about 7pm at night (dare I say it like BBC3 or BBC4) to cut back on air time but still hits the time that most folk sit in front of the tv? Maybe a main news at 7pm or 8pm (so not to clash with mainstream news channels).
Any SNP, Yes campaigning literature printing on it the details of the channel, times etc to get the word out.
I cancelled my tv licence the other day and I am waiting on the refund (9 months) which I would
gladly send to the ‘fund’.
I was also made redundant last month after 23 experience in the logistics industry and would happily use my time volunteering to help set up or get involved. I live in the Cumbernauld area so if anyone needs me then please give me a shout. I am happy to help in anyway possible.
We can do this and get the REAL news out there!
Wee story to share:
Down in London and met with old workmates, One English ( Wigan), one Argentinean ( Buenos Aires).
The referendum comes up and Argie mate says it was always likely people would be too scared and these new powers were a sort of win.
After pointing out exactly how no new powers are actually coming I then raised the topic of BBC being more hated than Tories in Scotland. They were astounded. I explained why half of Scotland wants it done away with and they shook their heads ala Jola astonished, and said “Buts its THE BBC!”
I laid out history of media in the campaign ( they didnt even know anything about Nick Robinson etc) and concluded by warning them that one day soon, they will sadly learn what lies at the dark heart of the BBC editorial process.
@Ian Brotherhood
That’s good stuff! I’ll be sharing that with others.
The REAL News in Scotland
Maybe we should create one of these threads like “The Curse of Gnome”. For those of you unfamiliar with Private Eye they used to regularly feature people with egos who had opposed them in court as they regularly fell from grace and got into trouble. In this regard, Trinity Mirror who own the Daily Record have admitted yesterday phone hacking took place in the past. Unfortunately for the Record Trinity don’t have the giant pockets of Rupert Murdoch when the celebs come to sue. Just like Records became eclipsed in the 1980s it might be the thing which does for the English owned group.
Regarding fracking in Scotland, I thought that Holyrood had the final say in the planning process so could ultimately block any application?
IMPORTANT MESSAGE:
Time to boycott the economic arm of the British State. Hit them were it hurts! Cancel all mainstream media newspaper, magazine and online subscriptions: move your money out of British financial institutions and into local credit unions, cancel sat and cable subs, rip-up BBC/TV Licence demands. And do not trade with those companies who threatened to move out of Scotland. If 45% of the Scottish population distance themselves from UK institutions, this will send a strong message to London.
THE SCOTTISH PEOPLE HAVE ECONOMIC POWER! BOYCOTT BRITAIN! DO IT NOW!
Tony Blair. Ed Miliband. Nick Clegg. David Cameron.
Iraq.
Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Do you realise how deranged that makes you sound?
The promise of Devo Max has already become Devo plus and the promise to retain the Barnett formula has already become the “Reformation” of the formula into something completely different and as yet undefined.
Morag
You channeling your inner voice again?
Wee maps of fracking stuff.
frack-off.org.uk/locations/
decc-edu.maps.arcgis.com/apps/OnePane/basicviewer/index.html?appid=203a356506a640d886730b1f2b2371e8
Sorry don’t know how to active link.
Clacks YES held a meeting last in Alloa over 100 hundred people turned up and offered their views. The general concensus was we are not going anywhere. Yes Clacks will remain as a campaigning organisation next target 2015 GE. Unionist parties beware.
@
Cag-does-thinking
Gordon Brown
@ Morag
Whom?
🙂
Does anyone know whether the YES Alliance is coming together? (I don’t do twitter but am thinking I will have to). If they could set up a website etc then we an collate all the latest from blogs and non-establishment news.
David says:
“However i am preparing myself bit by bit with information and facts, because i intend to take on any future debate i have head on and win it thoroughly for Scottish independence through sheer weight of facts.”
If there is anything positive that the Ref. has shown, it is that the large majority of the Scottish population now know that the BBC + other TV channels and MSM are biased propagandists of the establishment. All the YES Alliance and many, many DKs and NO folk have seen it for themselves.
We may have the sheer weight of honest facts but as we’ve seen, they don’t get broadcasted to the majority of households so they don’t get the facts.
BBC/MSM dominate the news distribution in Scotland
More stuff that the BBC don’t like to report. The MSM too, with very few exceptions.
Child sex inquiry into MP ‘blocked by senior police’
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4217138.ece
More here –
http://theneedleblog.wordpress.com/
Labour Peer Lord Janner, QC, has over 20 allegations of child abuse levelled at him. Police told not to investigate. NB – Sources are the Observer and The Times.
You think Labour are bad? The Tories have even more skeletons in their closets.
This story just keeps rumbling on and. If the whole truth ever comes out it could bring the entire WM House of Cards down around us.
@Dave Lewis – any ideas why Clacks was overall No/
“The inland shipping weather forecast”
Green SNP SSP, Fair, 45, rising quickly
RBS Asda shoppers, 55, falling quickly
TV Licence, high pressure, falling quickly
Scottish soldiers sent to war, falling quickly
Dawning realisation, rising slowly
Stephen Armstrong, obviously. Who’s he? Coming on here screaming in caps-lock about boycotts.
Fracking Powers
———————-
Newsnet August 15th 2014
http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-news/in-brief/9593-scottish-government-says-no-to-whitehall-fracking-plans
Scotsman August 15th 2014
http://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/scottish-government-defy-westminster-over-fracking-1-3510927
The amazing power of Google eh!
Midgehunter, you’re in a bubble. Only a minority of the Scottish population knows that the BBC is a biassed propagandist. And that’s our problem here.
@heraldnomore
I think that we are better with separate enterprises, not necessarily split between different media types, but to appeal to different audiences.
Derek & NNS seem to be aiming for the middle-class, serious types. Wings & the Dateline guys perhaps a more incisive, challenging approach, Bella the avant-garde approach. And as many more as we need.
Scotland needs at least two independent newspapers – a broadsheet and a tabloid – to provide decent, Scottish alternatives for the Scotsman/Herald and the Record/Sun buyers. I don’t think a free paper would cut it, frankly, as they are never taken seriously – even the Metro after more than a decade is still discarded when you reach your stop, despite often having some good articles.
We need not just a news programme or two, but an entire channel to ensure these programmes actually get broadcast. This is the area these guys need to get together and discuss. I hope that, under the Yes umbrella, everyone sees the benefit of working hand-in-hand, not as one entity but as several, with the same common goal. We need the diversity.
Whether people power can contribute to that is an other matter – if we state loudly and clearly what we want and need, that should help form the scope of their projects but whether they include everything we ask for in their plans is up to them.
I know they don’t have to include our ideas- we’re already Yessers – but the grassroots voice is one that still should be heeded.
Obviously
I still think we need a pro-independence daily newspaper in Scotland. However, the problem is that sales are decreasing in this section of the media.
@Morag. 12.04,
Not sure about two letters S in the word biased. Somebody was looking for an extra S earlier on. Bugger the Panda I think. Could you pass one to him?
Bugger the Panda 9.15am
“Talking of the lowest of the low, BBC have broadcasted, BBC World during the night anyway, a voiced opinion from a Scottish girl / lady whose father was beheaded by IS.
She said we should wipe them off the map.
My comment about lowest of the low applies to the BBC, not the relative whose opinion is understandable.
To use her opinion as a political football is unforgivable.”
STV made this their top story last night BtP. Preparing us for war. BBC Scotland and STV are nothing more than Westminster “patsies”, the mouthpiece for London lies.
o/t does anyone know if there are 45 pin badges available from anywhere in silver or blue along the lines of the wee silver Yes pin badges, a good few of the lads on the rig are looking to get them.Cheers in advance.
@ClanDonald
Bravo…doff of the cap for that cracker!
i have been helped by this grassroots group, below.
do not feed wastemonster, if able, form or support similar groups.
fact, £1.6bn pa is being ripped out of the sick and disabled’s hands in scotland.
help fight against these savage cuts, fight sanctions job center sanctions.
fight against in work poverty, 0 hr contracts, fake unproductive self employment.
all this leads to rise in foodbanks.
http://edinburghagainstpoverty.org.uk/
Gordon E,
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/283832/Planning_v3.pdf
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/archive/National-Planning-Policy/themes/minerals
We have to also bear in mind the removal of control by the House of Lords over renewable energy policy and the fact that their report into fracking was authored by four peers with considerable business interests in fracking companies.
Furthermore, we should remind ourselves that the opencast coal companies recently did a ‘runner’, in effect, by declaring bankcrupcy and failing to have sufficient funds for clean-up despite the existing policy and it’s “more explicit guidance” … ” on the issues that should be taken into account when determining whether a proposal is acceptable”
So technically, yes, planning is under Holyrood control for now, but for how long if it gets in the way, or how effective it can make it, is a moot point.
Midgehunter says;
“BBC/MSM dominate the news distribution in Scotland”.
Aye, and it’s pointless telling them of their blatant deceit and bias.
They have made it very clear that they don’t care.
It will be great to have alternative sources of information from people who do care and do their own job without first having to check with the repugnant and stagnant Westminster.
Great things are emerging in this country, and these days are exciting for those who have hope.
Pro indy/devo max media is important, especially in a more traditional vein than blogs/websites/twitter. As Morag pointed out most the public are unaware of media having bias. With an alternative we’ve a chance of approaching these people on a level or platform they are familiar with. We can’t expect the elderly to all immediately take to the internet with new tablet PCs, even if it would probably benefit them in many ways.
There’s been lessons given in the indy ref campaign, we just have to be able to learn them.
Are we talking tv here or just youtube stuff. I would hope it is the latter.However, is broadcasting not under Westminster control? I have not read every post here yet so allow me to ask the point.
If, indeed Westmister does control the tv broadcasting, I cannot see any way they would allow Scottish specific material to be broadcast. They do not want any truths about how they treat us, to go to our masses. So I assume a plan of some sort is being thought out, maybe someone could explain.Thanks.
David Cameron says that “IS” have declared war on us, so we need to go to war against them.
Is he talking about England, the UK or Europe?
Who have “IS” declared war against?
And why is there only TWO countries (UK and France) out of TWENTY EIGHT European countries that are going to war against “IS”?
What are countries like Belgium, Sweden, Poland etc… going to do about “IS”?
Don`t think Stu is the Sun ,Sea and Sand type. More like two weeks playing all the new computer games that he has missed out on in the last 2 years. With a weekend in heart of darkness ( London ) at the Eurogamer Expo 25-28 September 2014.
Just a thought , the whole Referendum could be scripted into a great computer game. I think some of the lads and lassies from Freedom City (Dundee) with there background in the games industry should think about it.
Great characters on both sides.
A fight between The Establishment and Grassroots/Freedom fighters.
Could be called `REFERENDUM`
Rough Bounds, the double s is traditional UK spelling, accepted by my spellchecker which rejects the single s as a US variant. Creeping Americanisation is all over the place these days.
I see the Freedom TV fundraiser has reached its target. That’s encouraging.
Add value to the campaign to abolish the Television Licence,tell STV and its advertisers,Sky salesmen,TV and DVD retailers that their market in Scotland is shrinking, thanks to disenchanment with the television tax.
RE IS. They are a danger to UK and France because UK and France bomb them. Airstrikes in Syria today hit IS sites (allegedly) and oil refineries. Aljazeera http://tinyurl.com/kggehlz
My understanding is that “The West” armed ISIL via Turkey and Israel as a means of attacking Assad in Syria. Just like our previous creation, Al Qaeda, they run amok with their arsenals of western weapons. Arms manufacturers clean up twice over.
I think that we need to move quickly to get some kind of slogan or name of a new organisation that we can rally round.
The YES campaign seems to have disappeared, so we need a new brand.
The youth of Scotland got right behind the YES campaign, but if there is a vacuum, they will start to lose interest. That is the last thing we need.
And not just the youth of Scotland, we must get something put together to keep ALL of those who voted for Independence interested.
So, I hope someone comes out with a word or words that we can get on posters and badges, that can be put on cars, windows and flag poles again.
I still use the YES material but I think we are in need of a re-branding.
Bugger
Can i get a copy of email, i maybe able to run tests. #ExpectUs
Thanks @Caroline
Fracking
I should also add a link to the original Press Release from Scot Gov – August 14th 2014.
http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Ewing-objects-to-UK-plan-to-drill-under-homes-without-consent-fd1.aspx
`the licencing of onshore oil and gas activities is a reserved matter managed through the competitive bidding process for licences known as Petroleum Exploration and Development Licences (PEDL) and issued by the UK Government’s Department of Energy and Climate Change (DECC);`
And FOE article which is useful…
http://www.foe-scotland.org.uk/node/1869
From Aljazeera on airstrikes on oilfields in Syria and Iraq:
“The raids aim to cripple one of ISIL’s primary sources of cash – black market oil sales that the US says earn up to $2m a day.”
Looks like IS is doing better with their black market oil than Scotland!
Re: I.S.
When does Cameron ask for the views of RBS, ASDA & Sainsbury’s?
@ The Rough Bounds
Chortle
@ Bill
You lost me. Can you expand, svp?
BtP
Dearie me. I just read John Harris’s article on the Guardian about the referendum and its aftermath. It is a good article, but the comments below are so depressing. It is the usual turgid comments from unionists/Brit nats. Apparently the SNP are on the extreme right wing of the political spectrum, they are a capitalist party (like the others are not?), they are anti-English, Salmond was apparently anti-English during the campaign, and loads more of this kind of a rhetoric. I am afraid the Guardian is beyond saving when it comes to Scottish politics.
It is a shame because John Harris, Geroge Monbiot, and some others get it and understand what has been happening here. However, most of the comments are just so warped, that there really is not much point in engaging with it anymore. It is a complete waste of time. The Slovenian is back and going on about the SNP being totalitarian or some such.
http://marksimonfrankland.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/the-45-its-called-defiance-and-its.html
@ Bill
Gotcha, the Weirs
I don’t do. at least I try but it is a bit like an ostrich trying to fly, Twitter.
Send me your e-mail address to
innerbearsden@gmail.com
thanks
Oh no, the arch-unionist, Michelle Moan’s bra company is in financial trouble. Heavy losses it says. What a wee shame:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/business/company-news/heavy-loss-in-final-financial-year-of-mjm.25433302
Lots of good stuff for short and medium term. However as we ponder such a range of options keep the eyes on the overriding next step. Eliminate Labour on 7th May 2015.
@Capella
I cannot believe that the US/UK seriously have/want? to bomb oilfields.
I see the BBC are talking up public support for bombing Iraq. If anyone has any doubts that the BBC are nothing more than the Government’s Propaganda wing then they can lay those doubts to rest.
muttley 79
The oil fields are in Syria, thus in the long term affecting the Syrian economy, the oilfields I.S. control in Iraq are left alone.
@Muttley 79
Re Guardian. No need to read it. George Monbiot has his own website and has a good article on how the media shafted the people of Scotland here
http://www.monbiot.com/2014/09/16/remote-control/
Re oilfields – warplanes are bombing ISIL’s makeshift oil facilities. The Aljazeera article explains
Those ever sensible German’s have banned fracking for at least seven years. I wonder why?
@Caz-m
Branding of new Yes movement. I think it should be called
ONE SCOTLAND
– its non-party political, its Inclusive for the No voters, it doesn’t mention Yes or Indepenence or Nationalist explicitly.
I see that for some odd reason Nicola has changed her facebook back picture to One Scotland as well ? Don’t know if that’s the name for a new SNP campaign ?
Aljazeera link I posted above with article on bombing oil fields: http://tinyurl.com/kggehlz
Re ONE SCOTLAND don’t you think it is only a matter of time before the tabloids are comparing that to ein reich? Does it matter? I suppose they will continue their malicious personal attacks no matter what the people of Scotland want. It’s Nicola’s turn now.
ClanDonald,
Insufficient support?
IMO we need a freesheet, call it 55+ 😉 aimed at that demographic that still reads and believes newspapers. Its a population that is resistant to change so they would not buy a daily Scots Independent but would, as they do now, help themselves to anything “free”.
We couldn’t ask Stu to be Editor as the tone would have to be “How could Westminster be so inconsiderate after we voted for them.” rather than Stu’s “Fuck off, that’s what you voted for.”
The main problem for such a paper is getting it distributed. When it can be shewn that it is reaching the grey demographic advertising will flow to it, they’ve got the money. How to ensure it reaches the greys is the problem to solve?
I was just chatting to Colin Fox of SSP who is back out in Stirling today campaigning again for Yes / Independence (as Alex Salmond said – a star).
Colin is absolutely up for SSP being part of an Independence Alliance for the Westminster GE. There were 4 SNP mp’s in Sunday Herald saying the same thing. The SNP will no doubt be arried away at moment with all the new members but I don’t think that will cut it with Labour voters at a GE whereas an alliance with LFI, SSP etc and non-political party movements like RIC and National Collective could sway a lot of voters.
Any support out there for a One Scotland coalition amongst WoS’ers ?
Anyone out there with high level contacts to SNP who could test this further ?
Any new Scottish television initiative have simply got to be on Freeview.
initiatives
Fyi posted on previous entry, A Balharry
I see Jack Foster etc are saying they have enough cash and are suggesting people put their cash into other ventures, how much do they know of the other TV ventures.
Never heard of the folks behind Freedom TV and Ref TV, which I was involved in for the Fringe, saw all the key players leave after the 14 programmes at the Hill Street Theatre. Worth asking why that might be. We were all volunteers and many high profile.
Suggest people think carefully before they pledge their cash.
I’d have thought if Broadcast News was serious about a rival to the BBC etc they’d need all the cash they could get.
Who knows.
Interesting to note which folks have contributed over the last two years to the range of indiegogo’s on offer. Think for myself, sure like others, sit at around 35.
I only mention it as it seems odd to me that people now asking for people’s well earned cash, appear not to have contributed to any others.
In the, yet to be delivered, promised land be careful of the takers.
Clearly the online offerings they mention, we know who they are, no problem there.
I’d suggest contributing to them Bella and Bateman, and for the record, as Ms Riddoch, is fond of saying, ‘I’ve no skin in any of them’.
Forgot to say, Colin Fox says SSP have had 2000 new members since last week which has about TRIPLED the size of their membership – bodes well for campaigning effort given increase in Greens and SNP as well.
Alistair: That labour stooge over on twitter, Duncan Hothersall, uses the One Scotland branding on his twitter account. He seems to think it means all of Scotland’s defeated 45s should unite together with Labour and accept our shared, common future as part of the uk forever.
Not sure how compatible this is with his beloved Labour party’s slogan, One Nation, but hey…
Anyway, if we do adopt the “One Scotland” as a yes brand, we need to make sure everyone is aware that’s what it is, and not some united with labour initiative, so we would all have to help promote it far and wide.
https://twitter.com/dhothersall
@alistair
I originally thought a Yes alliance would be good in the aftermath of the No vote. However, there is a major problem with it. It would almost certainly provoke a backlash among unionist parties and most importantly, No voters. You could up with a situation where people are not voting on the issues per se, but based on how they voted in the independence referendum.
@handclapping
Put in a plain envelope inside the Sunday Post and the Peoples’ Friend.
DC Thomson would never do it, except for filthy lucre, of course.
Just a couple of things, I read a couple of days back the sale of the “Double Tree Hotel” in Glasgow or Edinburgh ? and was completed for 25 – 28 million, but what piss’s me off was the fact their had to be a NO vote first before the sale could be done.
What the fuck are we meant to be if we had voted YES, LEPER’s, are we so f-ing bad as an independent country they would not even trust us enough to buy a scabby hotel.
Remember the name “Double Tree”.
Their has been a few comments in the last few days about how high a majority some of the Labour MP’s have in Scotland regarding the next general election. Well I would say that all labour MP’s are starting blank after the referendum, don’t hold back on letting everyone know how much those bastards mis-called and run down our country for the past two years. And always insist they are called the “red Tories” who answer to the Tories down at Westminster, don’t let up on them they deserve absolutely no mercy.
Lets make Scotland a Tory free zone next general election, whatever the colour.
Can I thank this website for keeping my spirits up. The fabulous Wings team have been so brilliant when I needed information – particularly in debunking all the MSM rubbish – and all the contributors’ comments have been great. I love reading the posts and am learning so much from you guys. That means on a one-to-one level I can still keep informing people. My anger is still sticking in my throat, so much so that I prefer to call the UK government WestMONSTER!!! One of my male pals got in touch with me yesterday. He’s doing amazingly well out of the oil business. I asked him what he voted. It was Yes and when I asked why his reply was, “Because I’m human.” I wanted to blub all over again… Thanks, peeps!
@B(tP)
Sort of like Nye and the NHS “Stuff the bastards’ mouths with money”.
You would have to include the Express and the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party’s members’ newsletter to get all the old fogeys
@ClanDonald – hothersall using One Scotland. So he does, that’s depressing. Its exactly the same logo that Nicola is using. Anyway, bigger political potatoes than nobodies like me will no doubt come up with something but I feel they need to do something quickly so all the good will and momentum doesn’t dissipate.
@mutley, Yes you could get a No backlash but it would either be Tories having to vote labour to keep the One Candidate out (and they wouldn’t do that in the Morningsides of this world) or hard core Labour voting Labour anyway. The liberals might vote labour I suppose. If there isn’t a mandate for immediate independence after WM GE from such a coalition then it will keep all the No voting SNP supporters voting for alliance, and attract all the movement groups as well – the end result being to wipe out as many Red Tories as possible.
ISIS has transmogrified to ISIL.
“Islamic State incl Levant”.
The LEVANT Encompasses all the Eastern Coastal countries of the Mediterranean.
With the Levant included in the Commons War Proposition – Syria is an inclusive target.
According to rat Galloway, ISIL HAS ONLY 20,000 Fighters and ZERO Bases.
Freedom for Iraq.
Freedom for Syria.
Zero Freedom for Scotland.?
Look closely at the EU Nation State of Cyprus where UK has 2 x British Army Bases and an RAF Base that we in Scotland FUND via our taxes.
After DECEMBER 2014 Scotland will be left with ONE RAF Base – exactly the same as Cyprus.
We in Scotland pay for both.
RAF Lossiemouth in Scotland.
AND RAF AKROTIRI IN CYPRUS.
Before Diet Devo-Max we paid to MUG OURSELVES.
Day of the topics 4 for a pound at asda.
@ Votadini Jeannie + Piggy
Scotland needs at least two independent newspapers – a broadsheet and a tabloid – to provide decent, Scottish alternatives for the Scotsman/Herald and the Record/Sun buyers. I don’t think a free paper would cut it, frankly, as they are never taken seriously – even the Metro after more than a decade is still discarded when you reach your stop, despite often having some good articles.
We need not just a news programme or two, but an entire channel to ensure these programmes actually get broadcast. This is the area these guys need to get together and discuss. I hope that, under the Yes umbrella, everyone sees the benefit of working hand-in-hand, not as one entity but as several, with the same common goal. We need the diversity.
I’ve gladly donated to most of our causes from Wings to the new attempts in broadcasting. I know that we need to sometimes take small steps just to get started. So anything which improves our media presence in any way must be supported.
However, if we want to break the Beeb/MSM dominance we need a very big stick, we need to fight them in their own back yard and beat them at their own game.
The telly and newspapers are still read and watched in most households, the’re not going away so we have to join them to get our message out.
Even if we have a good selection of professionally produced programmes on the internet we still need a computer to access them. I fear that we’ll have an internet bubble of yes enthusiasts all interested and chattering to each other but still not penetrating the mass of “go home and switch the telly on” folk.
The No vote dividend: new war in the middle east, fracking under people’s houses allowed, Times reporting cuts to Scottish budget, promises already slipping, oil being talked up again.
@allen
So you’ve been into ASDA? Boycott breaker! LYNCH HIM 🙂
The ‘One Scotland’ tagline has 2 issues for me.
1: It sounds like a Scottish spin off of Ed Milibands Disraeli ‘One Britain’ rip off.
2: It reminds me of The One Show on the BBC, a ramshackle embarrasment with presenters crying about how they should have a vote in Scottish referendums. And so was the One Show.
Names arent most important right now. We just need to ensure momentum and interest is maintained and encouraged. Lets reorganise at various levels ( parties,online-media etc) and then worry about whats on the banner we work under.
As Juliet would say:
“What’s in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;”
Aye Scotland
Red Tories – NEVER more like a pale shade of pink. The sooner we end their gravy train the better.
Auld Rock
Think about it.
SECURING A NO VOTE TO SECURE THE GOLDEN EGGS
The UK Government applies all the combined forces of the
State (less the military.)
Embarks on the most disgraceful PR campaign ever see in GB.
Denies meaningful access to any TV Radio and Print media
to the opposition
Lies it’s soul into, and 3 tours around Hell.
Terrorises the elderly with lying threats to pensions.
Solicits threatening support from other Heads of State
and leaders of Big Business.
Trashes Scotland’s right to self determination while
showing absolutely no respect whatsoever to it’s people.
– this is the thinking bit –
Now why would Westminster & the City of Greed
expend all that time and energy
on a nation of subsidy junkies which is
genetically not programmed to make political decisions?
Is generosity to Scotland in the Tory DNA ?
Is kindness toward poor Scots in the Tory DNA ?
We’ll take that as a double negative.
So what then, is the explanation ?
Of course, you all know the answer fellow wingers.
But I’m going to spell it out anyway.
Scotland is England’s Goose that lays the Golden Eggs.
Westminster & the City of Greed know EXACTLY
the mind-blowing galactic value of Scottish oil & gas.
Had it been a Yes vote on the 18th
there would have been a rejection of the result by
Westminster and quite possibly tanks on the streets on the
19th.to quell the riots.
If you find that impossible to believe,
(and I have some sympathy with you,)
may I humbly suggest you are not reading
what’s actually written on the wall.
It’s the Goose what did it.
Without massive reserves of oil and gas,
Westminster & the City of Greed
wouldn’t give a toss for Scotland.
Actually, they still don’t.
It’s only the eggs they care about.
But there’s more . . .I know – it’s difficult -one last
bit –
We are RELYING ON DEMOCRACY to give us Independence
Westminster is NOT relying on Democracy to prevent it.
IMO, we in Scotland, need to take that on board,
going forward, as they say.
handclapping
Inside the War Cry?
Dave,
Yes this is true i read it the other day.he said that it would only be completed if there was a no vote.I am amking sure they do not get my custom or anyone else’s what a complete arse** i know some buisness people and can assure you they would never stoop to tactics such as blackmail! obviously a complete Tory bast**d
I kind of take Alison’s point about the Freedom TV fundraiser. I think that’s why it’s gone relatively slowly – nobody knows who’s behind it. I certainly wouldn’t punt the sort of money I was punting to Wings in that direction, but on the other hand sometimes it’s worth giving something a wee push just to see what happens.
Jack & James’s fundraiser had already made its target before I got a chance to contribute, but I wanted to put in a wee bit to be part of it. The other one has made its target now too. I might give them a fiver later just to keep in touch and see what happens there.
Something needs to destabilise the BBC/ITV stranglehold on the news agenda in Scotland, and he who doesn’t make mistakes doesn’t make anything.
“OUR SCOTLAND”
won’t notice much the wee change of letters
“one to our”.
Morag
It is Ken McDonald aka kendonmacaroonbar or Wings fame, one of them anyway.
@B(tP)
I dunno. I’ve only been sold one once, when I lived opposite a pub. They probably picked on the neighbours as the clientelle at the time were spikey green hair, Doc Martens and piercings.
May I submit a “Creative Idea”.
Anyone who has ever had dealings with the Pension Service or Jobcentreplus or with Social Services will know that the Mill wheels grind slow and long.
My last dealings with NIC`S TOOK OVER 5 MONTHS to resolve via snail mail.
The ConDem Govt has elected to “Fast Track” all these dealings via the Interweb.
Subjecting those who have zero Internet access to a 3rd Rate system.
Where is their “Human Rights”.?
As a sleekit move “Wingers” can CAMPAIGN to ensure every Pensioner in Scotland gets a FREE TABLET and an INTERNET DONGLE (£150 ?), thereby by-passing the MSMand allowing uninformed Pensioners and the POOR to enjoy Internet access – but more importantly – give them access to WoS, Bella and etc.
Untold billions for WAR and war wagons and aircraft carriers – but a 3rd Rate system for the old, infirm, poor and the Unemployed.?
Just an idea,?
As 45 and 55 make 100 how about “100 Scots”?
@buggerthepanda
Freedom TV is not Ken’s thing, that’s something else, as I understand.
Whatever folks fund I only ask they think about what and who they’re funding.
Alison
@DoziR
Our Scotland – I like that even better…
Totally agree with Andrew Haddow @ 1:32
Any new TV initiative must be shown on Freeview. I believe all ‘terrestrial’ TV signals are now digital since analogue was phased out. Therefore anyone who watches TV has access to digital either by their set or by the wee box thing. Internet TV wouldn’t work as well IMHO – poor streaming speeds in many parts of Scotland make it unwatchable.
Not sure how hard it would be to fund a channel on Freeview, but when you see some of the garbage channels on there already like shopping etc then surely it’s do-able.
But they have to come together on this. The latest indiegogo fund raiser has to come together with Freedom TV and the Caledonian paper thing. No point in all these media proposals going their separate ways to try and achieve the same goal i.e.unbiased reporting of facts.
Personally, if a newspaper comes out of it then I would gladly subscribe and would also like to see an App made available for those of us who are often working abroad. It would keep us up to date and all the current MSM papers have app formats. No problem subscribing to an App either.
But please can those behind these fantastic initiatives get together and channel all the creativity and energy (and money) into one well thought concept for the TV side at least. Its the only way to take on the BBC etc at their own game.
@buggerthepanda
Here is Ken’s fundraiser they are SERIOUSLY struggling
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2349839
@ Albalha says:
26 September, 2014 at 2:18 pm
@buggerthepanda
I’ll check Alison
Jim
Only 31 weeks until the UK General Election.
And there are, what, 41 Scottish MPs?
We could have a thread dedicated to the SLabbers who helped Better Together secure their victory. Potted biographies, size of majority, quotes relevant to indy-ref, expenses-claims details etc…
It could resemble a ‘Top Trumps’ set – ‘at a glance’ ranking of who deserves to get hoofed more than others, and which are most liable to defect/resign/fold under the pressure.
Not sure how it would kick-off, but alphabetical order seems as fair a method as any, in which case, first up for shaving would be…?
@Albalha
Posts crossed.
Yes you are right
Jim
@Ian
wasn’t that someone’s suggestion for the wee Red book ?
I think it would be brilliant to pull that together with strong graphics to put the boot in.
Don’t know if the Rev Stu would be up for that ?
We would want our channel to operate at least 1800-2230 and could well rerun the previous days output from 1330-1800. We should try to nick Real TV as the name so our news would be the Real News.
Real Scots TV
Apologies if this is a loooong read but, it was in an e-mail from a learned society that takes a small fortune off me every year.
“5 More Years of Expenditure Cuts
Sir Bob Kerslake, outgoing head of the civil service, is right to remind us that if Britain is to ever balance its books then at least five more years of spending cuts are in prospect. Looking at the most recent set of figures from the ONS, it may well need to be ten years unless some more radical moves are made to cut government expenditure and these are accompanied by rising taxes.
Speaking at the ‘Institute of Government’ Kerslake talked of ‘five more years of austerity’ in public sector spending. “The first five years have been challenging” he said but “the second five years are likely to prove harder [to achieve] for three reasons.” The first, he said, was that “because the easier savings had already been made.” The second was that “we will likely be doing this against a background of a growing economy and greater competition for good staff” and the third was because “the sense of urgency that underpinned the first savings programme will have been reduced.” This all made very reasonable sense albeit no doubt rather unpleasant to the ear.
No relief then and the notion that, because the economy is seemingly growing quite nicely again at the moment, the deficit problem can be allowed to take care of itself. That notion was rightly destroyed by Kerslake in what appeared to be a sensible and well-delivered speech. Looked at another way we might say that if the budget deficit was say 12% in 2010 it is only down to 6% today.
The Coalition Government is well aware that its efforts to cut the deficit have still got a very long way to go yet and it also knows that with debt still rising we have yet to even begin to think how and when we will start to pay this down. Of course, the economy is now quite definitely on a much sounder footing than it was back in 2010 – thanks to the efforts of Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne. We can also believe that from this point on the amount of taxation collected by the Treasury will also rise as a direct result of actions taken by the Chancellor and by the greater level of activity in the economy. I may not like the fact that the economy is being driven by consumer spending as opposed to manufacturing increasing, that we are seeing rising imports and far too few exports but this is at least better than nothing. We are, of course, a consumer economy at heart and you all well know where I stand on that point and my deep seated belief that somehow and very soon we must start making far more of what we consume and export more.
Of course there are also dangers to face as exampled by the increase in scale of geo-political events and threat, the seeming reappearance of the ‘cold-war’, weakness in the EU economy and even small signs that the ‘growth’ we like to talk about may not be all that it is supposed to be. The year ahead will certainly not be easy and it may be impacted by any and all of the above. Relying on growth to balance the books, nice idea that it might be, is not going to resolve our problems.
Further government cuts are absolutely inevitable no matter who takes charge of No 10 Downing Street next year and, as Sir Bob Kerslake rightly suggests, these will be far more difficult to implement than the first round of what I myself would, compared with what I remember in the 1970s, merely call ‘very mild austerity’ that we have recently had.
This time next year, whatever government has emerged from the General Election in May 2015, will be well down the road on the Comprehensive Spending Review process. By then all areas of government are supposed to have decided, or to be in the course of, deciding their future budgets and working within the boundaries set by the Chancellor and the Treasury. We all have our own personal views on what should or should not be done to achieve savings of course and I suspect that most of us also have what we might regard as untouchable areas. My own, as you well know, would be defence and while I accept that is probably not practical to take such a view in financial terms, I can only remind that I take such a view because I well know too much of defence is already running on the tank that is nearly empty in terms of available capacity. Demands on defence are certainly very high and we must, in the interests of freedom, democracy and the many threats that we face, make ourselves very aware of this.
Here’s another reminder that national debt will be close to £1.6 trillion or more when it peaks. And with just eight months to go to the election and the Office for National Statistics reminding us two days ago that public sector borrowing in the first six months of the year was £45.4 billion, be in no doubt that there is still a very long way to go yet in terms of solving our deficit problems let alone working out how we intend to pay down the debt.
Far from cutting tax, I would probably have to say that if we are going to get out of this mess we are going to need to think about raising as opposed to cutting taxes very soon. The other truism that we ignore at our peril is to believe that after all the cuts are done that we would actually be spending less on health, education, welfare and social costs. The fact is that no matter how fast you push through cuts, demand pushes the cost up. If there is any good news on the economy, apart from the return to some kind of growth, it is that low interest rates have been beneficial to the Treasury in terms of the cost of managing our debt.
That at some point we really must come to terms with the unacceptable level of cost that health, education, welfare and social costs including pensions is costing this nation, nothing is going to suddenly change. But I will make myself extremely unpopular predicting that the problems we still have can only be resolved by reducing expectation of what the state can be expected to provide, by making further across the board cuts in spending and by raising as opposed to reducing taxes. Indeed, they can only be resolved by strong leadership and determination to succeed.
CHW (London) 26 September 2014
Howard Wheeldon FRAeS
hwheeldon@wheeldonstrategic.com”
I did warn you it was long… 😛
Peter Murrell on Twitter
Well-ell-ell-ell! You make me wanna shout. Look the numbers jumpin’. 40,197 @theSNP newbies. Be part of it, join now https://my.snp.org/join
SNP membership STILL rising !!
40,000 new members is amazing.
IMO, we need to get behind the SNP at Westminster and not split the vote with Greens, SSP, Solidarity.
Other pro-YES parties have a chance at Holyrood with PR, but not Westminster with First-Past-The-Post election.
With a close result in the UK election, 20+ SNP MP’s could actually make the difference between Devo-Max and Devo-Nano.
It is the most practical and realistic chance we have of progress in the short term.
Campaigning with the simple focus on ‘Maximum powers for Scotland’.
Nicola should also attract more female voters, and be harder to attack than Alex.
I like ‘Scotland Rising’ to get away from the ‘exclusive’ 45 thing but still a nod to the ‘glorious revolution’ we’ve all been hoping for. Also because we are down but not out and hopefully on the way up with numbers growing.
@handclapping they
also do washing line 20m £1.50
I like the sound of “Scotland first” / “Scotland 1st”.
Non-political, party free, positive, open to all parties in an alliance.
SSP – Scotland 1st SSP – Scotland first
SNP – Scotland 1st SNP – Scotland first
Greens – Scotland 1st Greens – Scotland first
More Powers for Scotland
https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/promise-for-Scotland
what is it with labour, who thinks job seeking and brutal sanctions creates jobs and well being.
tory localism act is a good thing, and subsidizing employers so that they no longer need to pay wages, is good for our economy, and creates employment.
that TTIP will save the NHS.
we need a well funded jobs creation bank, not a chance of getting it now though.
i value perma-culture, work share, worker coops, food growing coops, food coops, eco-houses, land rights, polly tunnels, hydroponics, aquaculture, solar capture et al and eco-villages, with central resources hub.
http://permaculturenews.org/author/george%20monbiot/
what do we have now a cascade up effect centralized system, all trickle down plugged, that will never change until we #indyscot.
end poverty NOW!
@manandboy
“The UK Government applies all the combined forces of the State (less the military.)”
They actually did use the military against us, a few times in fact, they illegally employed the military top brass to speak out against Scottish Independence and as we know the military should at all times be apolitical.
The only thing they didn’t do was to send armed forces against us, but only because they ran out of time and probably their next move if Yes had prevailed.
@Alistair –
re: Wee Red Book.
Yep. Have heard that mentioned, but not sure if it specified the Top Trumps angle. I may have subconsciously nicked it…
Still, it’s a good one. And if we did it alphabetically it wouldn’t be long before we got to everyone’s favourite Lab Rat, JaBa.
@ David, 12;59pm
Wait till your well-to-do why-take-risks types have their home devalued and their health impaired due to fracking underneath them.
Wait till they find out they can’t insure their homes because of fracking in their area!
Here is Ken’s fundraiser they are SERIOUSLY struggling
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2349839
That’s a shame, but it just looks hopeless. The target is enormous and they’ve barely got off the ground in nearly a fortnight. Nobody has punted it to us so I for one didn’t know about it. Now it just looks like money down the drain.
There can be no better demonstration of how corrupted and disgraceful the union parliament at Westminster is, than the charade taking place today.
The media gleefully tell us, that all 3 main parties (by which we should guess they mean the three main parties in ENGLAND, Labour Libdem and Tories)have already agreed to support the bombing of Iraq. Yet all day the members of those parties stand and utter the most hollow platitudes, in what they call a ‘debate’, in the full knowledge they will all support the Bombing of Iraq anyway.
A sham of a democracy.
Meanwhile, the BBC gleefully tell us we can expect a Westminster vote result around 5 pm today (I wonder what it will be???? doh!), whilst SKY news are in full right-wing Fox news mode, excitedly telling us about all the types of missiles ‘our boys’ will soon drop on brown people (AGAIN), with (and this is their words) “a very precise degree of precision”. Did anybody at SKY news ever study the English language?
My message to the armed forces of the yookay, is, NOT IN MY NAME. The RAF is a disgrace.
And just to think, we could have walked away from all this last week, if enough Scots had not been misled and deceived by the BBC and british Labour party, and simply voted YES, instead of NO.
@ Midgehunter, 2:42pm
I like the sound of “Scotland first” / “Scotland 1st.
Not bad, but, I prefer “Allofusfirst” a la Robin McAlpine or “People First”
Here’s the link again to the post ref Survation poll showing voting intentions for the Westminster 2015 election and the Holyrood 2016 election.
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Where-Next-for-Scotland-Tables.pdf
You will see that SNP are on 49.2% for Holyrood but only on 34.7% for Westminster. My guess is that most people see the SNP as a Scottish only party and don’t see the point in voting for them for Westminster. That needs to be changed. We need to spell out why the Indy parties should be elected to Westminster.
Because this is a FPTP election we also need to ensure that the vote isn’t split. There will be more polls to come so a close watch on what is happening will help plan the priorities.
On Iraq
I asked a friend, who has just returned from Iraq (10 miles from Mosul), if the war was mostly being fought from the air or on the ground and he told me it is mostly being fought on the television and in the newspapers.
Total communications are not allowed with anyone outside the area. Pictures are beamed into towns and areas showing utter devastation in neighbouring areas and the population just up and leave.
Once his brother phoned him and told him not to go to the airport as TV pictures were showing the airport under attack and on fire. He was standing in the airport and everything was business as usual.
Ah the power of state controlled propaganda. I’m glad it doesn’t happen in this country!
onwards,
I agree with you regarding Westminster. The name of the game will be SNP. Firstly, they have the clout for Westminster elections, secondly, they will have the quality candidates required, and thirdly, with the best will in the world, only the SNP have the experience and money at winning Westminster seats.
I think there is a much better chance to get SSP and Greens elected in some key seats at the Holyrood elections.
I really want the next Holyrood parliament to have a large number of SNP, but overall a majority of pro indy people in the parliament.
So, IMHO, Greens and SNP will need to agree to help SNP for Westminster, but then SNP MUST, MUST, MUST agree to help greens and SSP, in certain KEY targeted seats for Holyrood.
Over to you Nicola (or whoever becomes the new leader of the SNP (Nicola)).
@ Morag, 2:51pm
Here is Ken’s fundraiser they are SERIOUSLY struggling
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2349839
Hate to use these words, but, the media appeals really need to think about “pooling and sharing” (sorry) in terms of funding, ideas and talent.
I think there is a lot to be said for getting together before diving off in different directions.
On a lighter note. Watching the excellent accompanying video on the article in “The Drum”. During the interview with Rev. Stu I noticed a copy of The Sensational Alex Harvey Band album “The Impossible Dream” in the background. Does this mean that the Rev knows who the man in the jar is?
This comment will probably only make sense to Stuart Black (AKA The Mafia Stole My Guitar) 🙂
http://www.thedrum.com/news/2014/09/25/scotsman-pays-out-wings-over-scotland-over-accusations-against-founder-rev-stuart
@ Albalha
@buggerthepanda
“Here is Ken’s fundraiser they are SERIOUSLY struggling
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iscot-a-free-fearless-news-service-4-scotland/x/2349839”
I’ve gave something but to be honest we have plenty internet news providers and they don’t reach OAPs. We need our own TV and radio station.
“You will see that SNP are on 49.2% for Holyrood but only on 34.7% for Westminster. My guess is that most people see the SNP as a Scottish only party and don’t see the point in voting for them for Westminster. That needs to be changed. We need to spell out why the Indy parties should be elected to Westminster.”
The 49.2% must learn that if they want to continue with a well run Scotland then we need MPs in Westminster to make sure we get the funding for it. Simple.
@JoeSwan
And anyone who complains about their property being fracked under will first have to own up to how they voted in the referendum. No voters will then be ritually laughed at and told this is what they voted for. Yes voters will be given cash for a judicial review.
That was for Capella, sorry.
Colin I just asked him and he tells me he has just finished a promotional video.
Remember he did that animated 3-D Wings logo before the Ref?
@Onwards
Admire your SNP commitment, however there are a fair few Westminster FPTP’s they have no earthly chance of winning. So fine, let them stand unopposed in the circa 34, I think they can win, BUT they need to step aside in the others.
Time will tell. How capable is the SNP of playing nice with the other children.
Re my comment at 3:02pm Apologies to Vambomarbleye. 😉
I see the BBC is backing the bombing of Iraq and probably Syria saying we have to stop these evil terrorists. They also repeated the lie that Assad in Syria used chemical weapons when we it was the rebels who used them – http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/uns-carla-del-ponte-says-there-is-evidence-rebels-may-have-used-sarin-in-syria-8604920.html
Anybody else noticed that reporting is becoming utterly biased for example in Ukraine the media terms the fighters there as “Russian/Moscow/Kremlin backed separatists” yet in Syria we refer to them simply as “rebels”.
We have been here before throughout the 1980’s the UK armed the Mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets only for us to fight them what about a decade later in 2001.
highseastim I was a a YES shop picking up a couple of t-shirts this afternoon.
The lady advised that they are hoping to have badges in shops next week.
‘iScot’ is an interesting name but I personally prefer ‘MaScot’. Sounds luckier.
PreScot would be perfect for a Pict-dedicated webTV.
Newsnet and Derek Bateman joining forces
http://www.newsnetscotland.scot/index.php/scottish-news/9789-newsnet-scotland-and-bateman-broadcasting-set-to-join-forces
Re: BBC
There is a video going around on facebook explaining how to cancel the TV license.
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152464663018650&fref=nf
You can cancel, and then phone the TV licensing to remove their ‘implied rights of access’ to your property.
This will stop TV license enforcers coming to the door.
The number one point is that in order to get fined, you basically have to incriminate yourself.
By ADMITTING to someone at the door, that you watch live TV.
Just having a TV isn’t enough – because it can also be used for DVDs, videogames, internet streaming, iplayer, and other catch up services.
“Regarding fracking in Scotland, I thought that Holyrood had the final say in the planning process so could ultimately block any application?”
I’ll answer that – the House of Lords removed those powers in case we tried that:
http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-politics/8428-fury-after-unelected-peers-strip-power-from-scotland
Whilst I admire Bateman and nns idea I think they are doing it wrong. It’s politics and current affairs. That’s just preaching to the converted and looking crazy to the rest and not attracting new viewers.
Original programming of comedy, drama and game shows are needed to get people to watch the channel and then stick around for the news.
A fairly cheap x factor of singer-songwriter when the winner gets a contract with an Indy label and the chance to tour Scotland would cost next to nothing to put on.
Get some of the Scottish wrestling groups to stick a weekly show on. It’s nonsense but it gets viewers.
Write a couple of dramas and comedys. They can be produced fairly cheaply and look expensive and if they’re good they can be sold abroad.
A football talk show costs a pittance and will also get viewers and rev Stu could even do a weekly video gaming show.
In amongst that put some news and current affairs broadcasting. Politicians will always appear on it for free anyway so that should be easy enough to do. The only important bit is to make sure it is actually impartial and fair and holds everyone to account so it’s not just seen as a state mouthpiece. You wouldn’t want to just be a mirror image of the BBC but a genuine broadcaster asking difficult questions of everyone involved. That way it can continue long after we are independent.
If you got 2 warehouses in an industrial estate you could make and film everything there bar outside shots for entertainment shows.
A budget on 2-3million would be needed as a start-up. Most of that could be got fairly easily through lotto funding, government grants and a bit of sponsorship. The rest would need to be made up through advertising and selling your dramatic content.
Common weal and business for Scotland would be the better pair to do it.
Call the channel the scottish corporation of television.
Website could be scot.scot
@jeremy the lawyer
You are trying to run before you can walk. First steps first rather than some big bang that offers a lot of targets to laugh at. As for the Commonweal and BfS they can get involved if they want after things get going but note they do not have broadcast or journalistic experience. Let’s let those with broadcast and journalist experience go first eh?
@jeremy the lawyer
some great ideas there Jeremy. Send them to Derek and you might nd up on the planning team!
While its laudable this talk of a News station, it still sounds like preaching to the converted and doesnt divert the fact that the majority of NO voters will still go to current Media for their information.
The freeview suggestions etc, how many watch STV Glasgow etc…hardly anyone across the whole of Uk watches local stations.
Are there still enough undecideds where a new News station will make a difference?
Great to see it work of course but i think a hint of realism is needed now and again before we all go a little bit “Lets have a demo in the campus” Grange Hill stylie.
Specific MP\MSP targetting is an interesting suggestion which could have significant immediate impact.
Jeremy the Lawyer
Are you taking the p**h, x-factor, game shows, baking shows… come on. Eastenders set in Glasgow, Sauchiehall Street instead of
Coronation Street.
What we absolutely need is a hard hitting news programme, investigative journalism the truth about what is going on in the world we live in, not inane, coma-inducing pap.
Ok Folks we need to target S.Lab M.P’S at the G.E. 2015. As a start 2 of the leading Labour M.P’S on the M.S.M were Jim Murphy and Douglas Alexander. They must be ousted for their behaviour and “Politics” against Scottish Independence. It won’t be easy to oust Jim Murphy (or will it), he had a majority in East Renfrewshire of 10,420 over the Conservatives, Lib Dems ( 2 Unionist Parties) with the S.N.P coming 4th!! in the 2010 G.E. on a 77.3% Turnout. Jim has been my M.P. since 1997 and has done well for himself and has feathered his own nest comfortably since then. Douglas Alexander has also been an M.P. for Paisley & Renfrewshire South since 1997 and like Jim Murphy has also feathered his nest too!! Douglas Alexander had a majority of 16,614 over the S.N.P in the 2010 G.E. on a 65.4 % Turnout and should be an easier target than Murphy. I despair for the people of Paisley voting for this Man when you see the state of Paisley under his tenure as their M.P. These are 2 examples and we need to target the rest of S.Lab feeble M.P’S,and get organised to ensure they all fall in the G.E. 2015.
Citizen TV
citizen.scot
I own that and
freescot.land
Sat 20th Sep: Evening Times: “SHIPYARD bosses are going ahead with plans to build a state- of-the-art frigate factory on the Clyde after the country rejected independence.
Work on the construction of a hi-tech facility costing more than £200million is to go out to tender in a few months’ time in the hope Glasgow will be chosen to build a new warship fleet”
When the Type 26 contract is announced, expected end of this year unless more design changes, that will be one stick less to beat us around the head with.
@muscleguy
Journalists and broadcasters can make shows but making a show is the easy bit compared to getting it seen. The platform is what is important.
I think putting a political show out there is running before walking because nobody wants to sit down at night and think. They want entertainment and brain off and zone out then once they’ve calmed down then think for a bit after. There’s a reason the one show is on at 7 and political programmes are on after 10.
Get people to like the content and they’ll hang around for the news. If you base it on news only then your audience is gone after a slow week.
Herald Fri 19th Sep 2014: “THE former chief executive of Clydesdale Bank’s owner has declared that National Australia Bank will get out of the UK market eventually.”
So – Vote NO for banks to move out of Scotland.
Could I suggest in Stu’s absence, a regular keeps a track of these stories for him? I’m just an irregular interloper!!!
A. N. Surgent
People watch comma inducing pap. There is no point making great news programmes without a market for it. You need both entertainment and factual programming or you just end up looking like a manic street preacher.
South park has more biting comment on a lot of current affairs than most news programmes.
You can’t tell people what to think. You can’t challenge their dogma. They won’t listen. You have to use subtle manipulation to make them think they are thinking. Then they feel smart and people like that so they keep coming back and then you work your angle.
It’s a long game. It’ taken the BBC and the papers years to perfect the art of subtle manipulation. And it’s why advertisers make so much money.
@Albalha:
“Admire your SNP commitment, however there are a fair few Westminster FPTP’s they have no earthly chance of winning. So fine, let them stand unopposed in the circa 34, I think they can win, BUT they need to step aside in the others.”
Are there any Westminster seat in Scotland that the Greens, and SSP have more chance of winning than SNP ?
I think SNP has the chance of major swings in every seat, if they campaign as a wide-appeal pro-Scottish party that simply campaign to push for the maximum amount of powers for Scotland. To always put Scotland first.
They could widen their appeal under Nicola.
And green supporters can surely see the SNP have many of the same aims. For green energy and against Trident.
We are now at 50% power from renewables.
I just don’t want to split the vote.
Tommy Sheridan is right.
That would be the worst mistake we could make.
The NO campaign will split between all the London parties.
YES support needs to focus to beat them.
The same FPTP effect is true in England.
UKIP has little chance of winning Westminster seats outside by-election protests.
They will start to get back behind the Tories, with promises of this EU referendum.
And if polls show Labour falling behind, then there is a good chance of taking every central Scotland Labour seat, from voters looking to protect Scotland.
Ed Miliband is hardly the most inspirational character to vote for anyway. He comes across as some weird nerd, and has never had a real job outside politics.
Stumbled across this news outlet:
http://www.scotsindependent.org/
Very SNP oriented though (not a completely bad thing).
For branding, couldn’t we go for ‘Alba Gu snooker loopy!’, ‘Hail Alba’, or even just ‘Alba’?
When I was at school I had a friend whose father was Welsh. We were talking one day and he mentioned that his dad was in Cymru. I hadn’t heard the name before so asked where Cymru was. He said that was where his dad was from, and so I said, “oh, so Cymru is Welsh for Wales then?”. He said, “No, Wales is English for Cymru.” Impressive answer I thought.
@ Albalha 1.34
I agree. People need to be careful about the pedigree of what they are contributing to.
Some of these are clearly legit…. others maybe require a bit more circumspection.
Also note that there are now several media initiatives up and running, it would make sense for some coordination here. I hope someone is on top of that otherwise we will end up with half a dozen failed attempts when we could have had 1 successful one.
and their FaceBook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Scots-Independent-newspaper/114472891935057?sk=info
I understand what you are saying but the tv has replaced religion as the opium of the masses, its designed to keep you safe in your own wee bubble, as far removed from Iraq as the foodbank at the end of your street is.
Theres a new awareness thats awoken and thats what the new media has to tap into, it shouldnt be in direct competition with traditional media it should be a strong alternative.
Sorry, last post was a reply to yourself Jeremy
Corruption at the heart of the UK.
Corruption at the heart of the UK.
@Alan of Neilston
Just my musings but from knowledge of East Ren, there are a lot of middle class folk who would have or possibly still do vote Tory/Lib Dem (the old Eastwood constituency used to return Tories). Those voters will presumably never vote SNP or anything further left. The only hope, I’d have thought, is fielding a Socialist type candidate in that constituency, no SNP candidate, with the main focus being to hammer home that the Labour candidate will a) vote with the tories or b) in Government, be as right wing as the tories.
added to above, that SNP members campaign for the socialist candidate.
Scots Independent has been going for years and years. It tended to lean towards the fundamentalist end of things and was very supportive of cultural aspects such lallans dialect ect. Not sure if it still has that feel. It’s distribution was usually through various esoteric channels. There used to be a guy went round the pubs on Byres Rd selling copies, dressed in kilt. SNP never really embraced it as an official organ. My dad was a lifelong subscriber, but it never really appealed to ‘cosmopolitan scum’ like me (see McDiarmid v Trocchi).
I agree that tv is the opium and new media the sobriety.
Unfortunately, more people prefer opium.
Infiltration is better than confrontation. Spike the water with your own ideas. A lot of people still think the internet is the reserve of the nutter and the paedophiles, but trust tv even though it has had just as many nutters and paedophiles over the years.
If a government wants to take down a group it infiltrates and destroys from within, finding the weakest members and changing them. We should do the same. Make our way of thinking the norm, not the exception. Make those who disagree appear like the nutters. Create our own group of new celebrity endorsers.
We can’t win if they cheat and we play fair. If they aren’t going to play fair then we have to cheat. I want to win
Check out the image now leading the WOS Twitter feed – that’s the type of thing I’m on about for the Lab Rat Top Trumps – a Lab MP (anyone know who he is?) with his O/O buddie.
On the topic of small publications – someone earlier mentioned Private Eye and it occurred to me that a similar satirical/informative style publication could fill a gap instead of trying to create a proper Newspaper. Most of the information that passes through Wings could easily be reformulated for copy, being both informative but in a style that entertains. The very effective cartoons for instance would be perfect for the ‘zine’-like style. You could publish once a month or fortnightly if successful.
Just an idea …
@Bugger (the Panda)
“Colin I just asked him and he tells me he has just finished a promotional video.
Remember he did that animated 3-D Wings logo before the Ref?”
I’m not disputing the mans talent, the animated wings logo was amazing, just the need for another internet news source.
I wish him well in his endeavour but I would like to see a new TV broadcaster than can reach those people that don’t or won’t use the internet.
Then again I would also like to see an truly independent Scottish newspaper.
I would like the WOS to be a bit more slicker as well, but all of this is just what I want and my opinion 😉
@Ian Brotherhood
Is it Graeme Morrice?
http://www.labour.org.uk/people/detail/graeme-morrice
We live in such a completely corrupt country it is amazing we got 45% Yes.
@jeremy the lawyer
“We can’t win if they cheat and we play fair. If they aren’t going to play fair then we have to cheat. I want to win”
Absolutely agree 100%.
We need to get our ducks in a row for the next time, have our experts lined up, have our business and celebrity endorsements ready and be prepared to out the lords and ladies who come out against us.
There is no point shaking our heads when the other side is lying, we have to be ready to out their lies and shame them in the publics eyes.
We also need a war chest so we can out spend them 10 fold just as they done to us this time, and never mind the electoral commission saying we can’t, it never stopped them this time and it shouldn’t stop us next time.
Re constituencies like East Renfrewshire and the Tory voters. I think the traditional Labour vote is easier to overcome, because the BLAB have compromised themselves so badly by advocating austerity. But I think to really tip the balance in Scotland, to gain a good 10% or 15% of the voters, we need to make inroads into the conservative middle-class areas. I think we need something like a political wing of Business for Scotland. Look at Michelle Thomson, for example. Someone like her would be a perfect candidate to put up in the south of Scotland or some of the Tory heartlands in Edinburgh, Perthshire, etc. Business for Scotland are not right-wing in any way, they are totally opposed to nuclear weapons, they want a German social-democratic model with strong trade unions and no income inequality. I think we really need an active political group that might appeal to the more small-c conservatives, ramming home the need for an economy orientated on Germany (yes, I know Germany has its own problems, but it is an economic powerhouse and mentioning Sweden might be enough to scare off some fearties with the prospect of, gasp, socialism!).
Watching the live news from the temple of war, I hope all No voters feel responsible for the deaths that are about to happen in their name.
With the Rev away I can talk behind his back, and my suggestion would be to discuss ways of helping him make WOS an even better resource.
I’m thinking a sticky thread, where, after discussion OT in a regular thread pehaps, a trusted regular can post a link to a news article + very brief descriiption / URL, or an idea. Rev could then use that thread and clear it out after to keep it easy to read.
I’ve noticed a few times Rev thanking someone for drawing his attention to something, but I know myself it takes 10 times as long to read a long threaed, as it does to make a posting even including some research and analyis.
@onwards – you ask ……
….Are there any Westminster seat in Scotland that the Greens, and SSP have more chance of winning than SNP ?…
Okay counting in strong independents, not just the SSP, or Greens, here a few for starters that I don’t think the SNP can win;
Orkney and Shetland – Edinburgh South – North East Fife – East Dunbartonshire – Berwickshire/Roxburgh/Selkirk – Edinburgh North and Leith – Edinburgh West – Aberdeen South
Oh and I also predict there’s a real chance the SNP could lose Perth and North Perthshie to the Tories.
@ Jim Thomson/Ian Brotherhood
Yes, it is Graeme Morrice; I’ve just searched for the image in google. He was speaking at the Bathgate Boyne celebrations of East of Scotland Orangemen and “issued a clarion call to preserve the union”.
I don’t want to link to britishtogether.co.uk, but anyone who wants more details need only right-click on the image and do the same search I did.
I’m still chasing a true copy of the original signed “Vow”.
A Parliament Briefing Paper*, available at the link,
http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN06987.pdf
refers specifically to “a joint signed statement of undertakings, which was published in the Daily Record, under the headline, “The Vow””.
No uncertainty here; this joint signed statement must be made available through official party sources, either Lab, Lib or Con.
* Reference
Scotland: Devolution proposals
Standard Note: SN/PC/06987
Last updated: 23 September 2014
Author: Hazel Armstrong and Paul Bowers
Section: Parliament & Constitution Centre
I think SNP has the chance of major swings in every seat, if they campaign as a wide-appeal pro-Scottish party that simply campaign to push for the maximum amount of powers for Scotland. To always put Scotland first.
Sounds like a thoroughly well thought out strategy backed by incisive analysis, bound to win it in Edinburgh North and Leith, perhaps you could be our campaign manager?
Albaha
Perth and Perthshire was SNP 19,118 Tory 14,739 it would need a 9.1% change, a 4.6% swing from SNP to Tory.
There’s apparently 20% of SNP voters voted NO, but still voted SNP at Holyrood, no idea of Westminster. If Devo-Max or something close isn’t delivered, I’d have thought the swing would be to SNP, not away from them.
Hi everybody. Does anybody know of a definitive list of all the YES shops (with adresses and contact details) that opened during the campaign ? Would this not be an invaluable networking tool to help fight the general election in 9 months?
I worked out of the Largs YES shop and always wanted such a list during the campaign but could never find one (or create one). Any help with this would be greatly appreciated .
braco
Ian Wood awarded fracking tender…
https://twitter.com/HopeOverFear_14/status/515481512436056064
@ilyana
So let’s look at the 2010 results for EN&L on a 68.4% t/o;
Labour 37.5%/Lib Dems 33.8%/Cons 14.9%/SNP 9.6%
Now for me a good Green candidate could do very well if the SNP stood aside. Of course we could just leave it all to the SNP and have the debacle of the third Euro Election seat, witnessed this year.
@yesindeyref2
Re Perth/N Perthshire, time will tell, just an early prediction on may part.
Wrong albaha
Nef is defo a target, if you look at what happened in the he you will see
I don’t get this blank ballot on the back argument folk are going on about – I know for sure 100% my ballot was blank on the back but I don’t know why it’s so significant?
Can someone let me know.
@braco
here are a few I found a month or so back – no phone numbers though. Also some added by others when I put it out on a wings thread at the time.
Irvine, High Street KA12 0AL
Glasgow, 136 Hope St. G2 2TG
Stirling, 67A King St.
Leith, 7 Easter Road.
Kirriemuir (can’t find an address)
Dunfermline, Bruce St.
1 High Street, Brechin
Inverness, Union Street
Kilmarnock, John Finnie St.
High Street Elgin.
Oban, 125 George St.
Bo’ness, 19 South Street (info hub)
Largs
Stranraer
There were a lot of others popped up towards the end of the campaign too.
http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2014/09/devo-max-what-it-is-and-why-it-wont-happen/
@“ClanDonald says: 26 September, 2014 at 1:07 pm:
Oh no, the arch-unionist, Michelle Moan’s bra company is in financial trouble. Heavy losses it says. What a wee shame.”
Mone’s a slip atween c-cup and ti* -Err! Err! Lip.
@Albalha
My thinking too, or a Left Alliance candidate of some sort. This is going to be a really hard gig as we are up against Mark Lazarowicz, very hard working constituency MP and I think the lowest expenses claims of them all. He manages to pull votes all the way from the very rich New Town area to the Flats in Leith.
@Schrodinger’s cat
Re NE Fife, based on 2010 I wouldn’t have seen the SNP as an easy winner, perhaps you’re predicating your view on the Fife breakdown of the Sep 18 results (I don’t have that data)?
Curious either way.
Meeting tonight Alness
September 27 at Alness Westend Community Centre at 7pm
http://www.ross-shirejournal.co.uk/News/Ross-MSP-calls-Alness-meeting-to-harness-Yes-campaign-positivity-26092014.htm
Jeremy the lawyer has understood what’s needed.
You don’t win by talking to your own faithful, you have to get inside the comfy zone of the telly tubbies. It’s their back-yard and if you want their votes then you have to go to them to get it.
Bread and circus is what they’re used to, lace it with your message.
Below is my reply received today from my democratically elected Labour representative at Westminster – regarding the vote re military action today. Give her her due the reply was prompt , honest and to some extent considered. I have already made it clear in my letter that her party has lost 3 Labour votes in my household over recent times, and that if she wants to represent the interests of Scottish people she would be advised to join another political party….
I know that they have some kind of pairing system at Westminster which I don’t fully understand but seems she will not be voting today ( her non vote will balance out another non vote the other way I think) but would support bombing if she were there – in other words she is pushing the button to kill people by proxy in the name of the British people …..
‘Thank you for contacting me regarding the possibility of UK involvement in air strikes against ISIL in Iraq.
The appalling brutality of ISIL – including taking British aid workers hostage and their campaign of atrocities against people of all religions and nationalities – will have shocked many people in our constituency and across the UK.
As you know, the House of Commons has been recalled today to vote on a motion proposing that the UK should agree to the request by the Iraqi Government to join the coalition of countries – including many in the region – that are taking part in air strikes against ISIL in Iraq. You can find the text of this motion here:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmagenda/ob140926.pdf
I have been giving this issue a great deal of thought over the last few weeks, and in particular over the last few days. I have found this an extremely difficult decision but, on this occasion, I have decided to support the motion.
I am clear that in doing so I am not giving support to any open ended or wider action. It is also important to emphasise that there is a clear legal basis for this action following the request by the Iraqi Government for the UK to join this broad international coalition. There is also no question of British ground forces being committed.
The motion does not propose British involvement in air strikes against ISIL in Syria. The Leader of the Opposition has been very clear that this would require a further motion in the House of Commons and has urged that a Resolution on this should be brought before the UN Security Council.
I believe that any military action must be accompanied by a wider political and diplomatic strategy in the region – in particular providing ongoing support for an inclusive and democratic Iraqi Government that can combat ISIL and restore stability and security.
I know that there are strongly held opinions on this issue but I hope that this response sets out my position clearly. Due to constituency commitments I will not be in Parliament today, but if I were I would vote in support of the motion.
Thank you once again for writing to me and for sharing your views.
Yours sincerely
Sheila Gilmore MP
Edinburgh East
Here’s the definitive document on broadcasting via Freeview IN NEW ZEALAND (and I’m just womdering why we don’t have such clarity here in the UK):
http://www.freeviewnz.tv/media/3500/freeview-service-provider-code-of-practice_sep2014.pdf
What we get is this:
http://www.vision247.com/services/freeview
Why should a prospective content provider/broadcaster have to “get a quote”? That implies some form of variability dependant upon ability to negotiate and/or other unspecified modifiers.
@Jeremy the Lawyer,
For the love of all that is good (and no disrespect meant to the Rev) but gaming shows must not be allowed on TV, they are AWFUL! The only half-decent one was GamesMaster and even then only when I was 14!
@Robert Peffers, 5:34PM
You could say that she’s boobed! 😀
Jim Thomson,
Thanks for that . Don’t you find it amazing that YES Scotland high heedyins never bothered to set up a simple web page with a running list and contact details of the shops as they appeared? Total incompetence or a method of keeping all control through the centre?
Either way it has left any nascient grassroots YES political movement at an enormous disadvantage. Getting a definitive list of the shops (and so their local organisations and non party political activist base) should be a top priority.
Has anyone any ideas of how to gather this info together before they are all completely disbanded?
Over here on the west coast of Scotland the RAF resumed low-level flying runs a week or so before the referendum: these haven’t been seen for quite some time.
Since the No vote has been secured the rush to war is now on. Were those RAF flights just coincidental? Aye, right.
Also, a friend in Cyprus has been aware of increasing numbers of fighter jets in the skies there. Again, coincidence? Aye, right.
This new war has been in the planning for a while. The referendum had to be won first, though – whatever it took.
The hysterical levels of fear-mongering and lies by Westminster/Better Together (and Obama, big business and Bilderburg ‘attendees‘) as the referendum approached attest to the opinion that winning the refendum was never about the people of Scotland, but about having control over the substantial Scottish oil and gas assets – all the better to fund the warmongers warmongering.
Go to Scotland Votes. Westminster, change the percentages to the most recent opinion poll predictions and the site will calculate the possible balance of seats in Westminster
http://www.scotlandvotes.com/westminster
Most recent is the yougov poll 25th September:
http://ukgeneralelection2015.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/yougov-who-you-want-as-governing-party.html
SNP 38%
LAB 33%
CON 16%
LD 5%
GRN 4%
UKIP 3%
@Ivan McKee
Ivan, is it possible that you or someone from Business for Scotland could try and co-ordinate the new media projects? People seem to be rushing to start different ones, and I not sure how much they are co-operating with each other, if at all. Since last week, we have Derek Bateman teaming up with Newsnet Scotland, with Jack Foster and others (possibly Wings) starting a fund raiser, and now Bella Caledonia. There are others as well. I agree with your post above. There is a good chance that projects will overlap each other, and thus there effectiveness will be diminished. Would it not be better if you or someone with a business background tried to get them round a table, and try and get some compromise and co-ordination?
Bella has an article on Scottish media. It states that there is going to be a Yesmedia conference soon to discuss collaboration and the best way forward.
Sounds like a positive development.
@alistair says: 26 September, 2014 at 1:23 pm:
” … its non-party political, its Inclusive for the No voters, it doesn’t mention Yes or Indepenence or Nationalist explicitly.”
You do know the difference, Alistair, between nationalism and self determination, don’t you? Not only that but much of the war and destruction laid at the door of, “Nationalism”, was in fact at the wrong door. For example the United Kingdom’s form of nationalism is actually expansionism as it was the Kingdom of England making political, military and financial attacks upon Scotland to take over Scotland as they had already done to Wales, (1284) & Ireland, (1542). As also was that of Hitler’s Third Reich who were also intent upon taking over other people’s nations.
Scottish benign nationalism bears no resemblance to such crude expansionism that is wrongly described as nationalism – correctly described as self-determination..
@ Jim Thomson
Apologies if this is a loooong read but, it was in an e-mail from a learned society that takes a small fortune off me every year.
“5 More Years of Expenditure Cuts
Sir Bob Kerslake, outgoing head of the civil service, is right to remind us that if Britain is to ever balance its books then at least five more years of spending cuts are in prospect. Looking at the most recent set of figures from the ONS, it may well need to be ten years unless some more radical moves are made to cut government expenditure and these are accompanied by rising taxes.
Speaking at the ‘Institute of Government’ Kerslake talked of ‘five more years of austerity’ in public sector spending. “The first five years have been challenging” he said but “the second five years are likely to prove harder [to achieve] for three reasons.” The first, he said, was that “because the easier savings had already been made.” The second was that “we will likely be doing this against a background of a growing economy and greater competition for good staff” and the third was because “the sense of urgency that underpinned the first savings programme will have been reduced.” This all made very reasonable sense albeit no doubt rather unpleasant to the ear.
No relief then and the notion that, because the economy is seemingly growing quite nicely again at the moment, the deficit problem can be allowed to take care of itself. That notion was rightly destroyed by Kerslake in what appeared to be a sensible and well-delivered speech. Looked at another way we might say that if the budget deficit was say 12% in 2010 it is only down to 6% today.
The Coalition Government is well aware that its efforts to cut the deficit have still got a very long way to go yet and it also knows that with debt still rising we have yet to even begin to think how and when we will start to pay this down. Of course, the economy is now quite definitely on a much sounder footing than it was back in 2010 – thanks to the efforts of Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne. We can also believe that from this point on the amount of taxation collected by the Treasury will also rise as a direct result of actions taken by the Chancellor and by the greater level of activity in the economy. I may not like the fact that the economy is being driven by consumer spending as opposed to manufacturing increasing, that we are seeing rising imports and far too few exports but this is at least better than nothing. We are, of course, a consumer economy at heart and you all well know where I stand on that point and my deep seated belief that somehow and very soon we must start making far more of what we consume and export more.
Of course there are also dangers to face as exampled by the increase in scale of geo-political events and threat, the seeming reappearance of the ‘cold-war’, weakness in the EU economy and even small signs that the ‘growth’ we like to talk about may not be all that it is supposed to be. The year ahead will certainly not be easy and it may be impacted by any and all of the above. Relying on growth to balance the books, nice idea that it might be, is not going to resolve our problems.
Further government cuts are absolutely inevitable no matter who takes charge of No 10 Downing Street next year and, as Sir Bob Kerslake rightly suggests, these will be far more difficult to implement than the first round of what I myself would, compared with what I remember in the 1970s, merely call ‘very mild austerity’ that we have recently had.
This time next year, whatever government has emerged from the General Election in May 2015, will be well down the road on the Comprehensive Spending Review process. By then all areas of government are supposed to have decided, or to be in the course of, deciding their future budgets and working within the boundaries set by the Chancellor and the Treasury. We all have our own personal views on what should or should not be done to achieve savings of course and I suspect that most of us also have what we might regard as untouchable areas. My own, as you well know, would be defence and while I accept that is probably not practical to take such a view in financial terms, I can only remind that I take such a view because I well know too much of defence is already running on the tank that is nearly empty in terms of available capacity. Demands on defence are certainly very high and we must, in the interests of freedom, democracy and the many threats that we face, make ourselves very aware of this.
Here’s another reminder that national debt will be close to £1.6 trillion or more when it peaks. And with just eight months to go to the election and the Office for National Statistics reminding us two days ago that public sector borrowing in the first six months of the year was £45.4 billion, be in no doubt that there is still a very long way to go yet in terms of solving our deficit problems let alone working out how we intend to pay down the debt.
Far from cutting tax, I would probably have to say that if we are going to get out of this mess we are going to need to think about raising as opposed to cutting taxes very soon. The other truism that we ignore at our peril is to believe that after all the cuts are done that we would actually be spending less on health, education, welfare and social costs. The fact is that no matter how fast you push through cuts, demand pushes the cost up. If there is any good news on the economy, apart from the return to some kind of growth, it is that low interest rates have been beneficial to the Treasury in terms of the cost of managing our debt.
That at some point we really must come to terms with the unacceptable level of cost that health, education, welfare and social costs including pensions is costing this nation, nothing is going to suddenly change. But I will make myself extremely unpopular predicting that the problems we still have can only be resolved by reducing expectation of what the state can be expected to provide, by making further across the board cuts in spending and by raising as opposed to reducing taxes. Indeed, they can only be resolved by strong leadership and determination to succeed.
CHW (London) 26 September 2014
Howard Wheeldon FRAeS
hwheeldon [at] wheeldonstrategic [dot] com”
I did warn you it was long… 😛
I am not sure what your purpose was in posting this. However I think it deserves some kind of response and although I am not best placed to make it I will have a go.
First. Why does it assume we have to “balance the books”? In the post war period the uk public debt stood at 232% of GDP, compared with around 90% now. Yet that period was one of the most successful for ordinary people in our history. Public spending was not cut: indeed the welfare state was implemented while public debt was more than 200% of GDP. Income tax was certainly higher, but as in Scandinavia, there was a clear understanding that it was related to the services and there was not the same antipathy to income tax there is now. Fact is a rise in income tax rates is insignificant for the vast majority, who would not even notice it. One of the ironies of the current pervasive narrative is that the neolibs have persuaded people that they are on the same side as the very rich wrt to income tax: this is not true.
The key difference is the economic policy pursued. Under a keynesian type of policy the prime responsibility of government is to ensure that there is full employment. That has the effect of raising tax revenue and reducing the payments under the social security provisions. Austerity has precisely the opposite effect, and thus makes the problem it is trying to solve worse. There can be no doubt about that, so far as I can see. It follows that in a time of economic hardship government deficit spending should rise. And there is no problem in doing that so long as you have a sovereign currency.
Second: the truth of what I say above is demonstrated by experience. As the piece you quote says, the policy he advocates has been in place for at least 5 years and it has not produced the outcomes predicted and sought. The debt continues to rise and the tax receipts continue to fall. So even on its own terms it fails.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25944653
http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_debt
It is arguable that the deficit has reduced in recent months, though the target set has been comprehensively missed,as was inevitable. But that begs the question: if debt is not a problem then reduction of the deficit is pointless, because the aim of deficit reduction is reduce the debt, or at least to stop it growing. For those of us who believe that to be entirely wrong headed both policies are frankly crazy.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2014/sep/23/budget-deficit-george-osborne-lot-of-explaining
Third. The article says the economy is quite definitely on a much sounder footing that it was in 2010. On what terms can this assertion be justified? The author himself says this is consumer driven, and regrets it. He also acknowledges that the UK imports more than it exports. He rather glosses over the implications of that but it is nothing short of disastrous.
The problem here is that the “improvement” in the economy is measured by such things as growth in GDP: and that kind of abstract number is useless in these circumstances. Much of the “growth” represents another housing bubble in the south east and that adds nothing at all to the real economy: the dangers need not be spelled out, since we have seen the effect of that so recently.
Fourth: the author describes the current austerity as “mild” compared to the 1970’s. Orly? There were no food banks in the 1970’s so far as I am aware. Pensions were higher in relation to wages than they are now, and so were benefits. Such an assertion can only be made by an imbecile, or one who is very comfortably off and who bears the misfortune of others with admirable stoicism – in other words a bastard (these are not mutually exclusive, btw). He goes on to special plead on behalf of defence, which he says is running on empty: as empty as the bellies of children in poverty? Yathink? In a pig’s eye! But if there is such a problem in defence how is starting another war a good idea? I do not think “freedom and democracy” means what he thinks it means.
And he goes on to make it explicit that we cannot afford education or health or pensions for the people. What kind of society does he then envisage? Why can we not afford those things we could afford before in this rich country where the economy is “improving”?
Where I do agree with him is that whichever party wins in 2015 they will adopt his recommendations. That is because they are all neoliberals and they all accept the premise this is built on.
There are alternatives and they need to be discussed sensibly and as a matter of urgency. In particular the contradiction at the heart of his analysis needs to be addressed: if we do not produce and export; if we do not ensure full employment; if we do not attack the notion that rising house prices are a good thing so that most people are in debt and are unable to buy much, then we are doomed to regress to the 19C and beyond: which is very comfortable for the financial elite and no accident. But let us at least not let such people pretend that they would like a better society but to their regret it cannot be achieved. For that is the big lie
The crass hypocrisy of George Galloway knows no bounds. News for you George – This is the Britain you campaigned for. You lay down with dogs & you get their fleas.
Scotland Votes also tells you which seats will change hands. For example with SNP on 38% it predicts 20 seats will change from Labour or Lib Dem to SNP including Aberdeen North and South, Falkirk, Stirling etc. We would want to increase that percentage to 50% or more!
@ braco
I agree it was annoying not being able to find a list of shops during the campaign. The shop in Kilmarnock has closed (lease came to an end), but there was some talk of trying to get other premises to campaign from.
Have to say I am getting tired of disappearing posts. I am using Firefox, what on earth is the problem?
Albalha @ 5:05
You mentioned Aberdeen South in your list. With any luck the recent pics of Anne Begg the MP for that area, campaigning for No with the NF guy might help some other party get in there.
If MP’s are good for their constituencies then it will be hard to remove them, no matter which party they represent. My parents always voted for Donald Stewart, the first SNP MP in Westminster. They voted for him because he was good for the area and worked hard for the constituents, but they never really supported the SNP or their policies.
Also, I think that our current MP, Angus B MacNeil may have a hard job retaining his seat for the SNP. He seems to draw a lot of criticism from various sides.
Just my opinion.
Braco
From BT dot net right at the top “I want to take a moment to say thank you. Thank you to you, the volunteers and supporters who have put their heart and soul into this campaign.”
From YES Scotland:
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@nigerianpirate
Interesting re Western Isles, on a 66.1% t/o it was SNP 45.75 share against Labour at 32.9%, but as you say if voters are unhappy with him as an MP and Labour field a good alternative who knows.
And Aberdeen South, one wonders. Can’t see that as an SNP win from their current 4th, 11.9% share, may take a very good independent.
Morag,
“Coming on here screaming in caps-lock about boycotts.”
Even Stuart has encouraged a boycott of the BBC. Don’t you agree with that?
Many posters here have started boycotting RBS. Don’t you agree with that?
If we have any principles, we MUST boycott businesses which so blatantly scaremongered about independence.
Not sure if the good Reverend is open to cheeky requests for plugging blog posts but, if so, here’s something I wrote that I think might strike a chord with some people (perhaps 1.6 million of you).
“The Beast Must Die! Why Scottish Labour Must Come to an End” – http://bit.ly/1xpTFQG
I really believe that the first major task of the independence movement is to quash Scottish Labour. They present a mental barrier that Scotland needs to cross in order to go forward (a psychological Rubicon, as it were). I think this is obvious to many people, and we’re absolutely getting there, but it needs to be done sooner rather than later, so we can move on quick to the next phase.
Anyway, ignoring my blushes, this is a piece I’ve written on this, full of honest to goodness raw rage and unashamed ire.
@Albalha
Not convinced at all that the Scottish Greens or the SSP are better placed to win a constituency seat in the general election next year. The SNP has by far the most members and resources of the three pro-independence parties. With first-past-the-post I can’t see how the Greens or SSP could win a seat. 2016 is a different story.
Capella
Thanks for that, taking Holyrood 2011 rounding up to the minimum 90% total you get:
SNP 45% – 48 seats
Labour 27% – 10 seats
LibDems 6% – 1 seat
Tories 12% – 0 seats
The trick is to get people to vote the same way for Westminster, as they do for Holyrood.
@muttley79
I’ll say it again, the SNP, imo, have the chance of winning around 34 MPs and the rest could be strong independents, Green, SSP etc.
The SNP are really not everyone’s cup of tea, including among Yes voters.
So Dundee West they can win, but Edinburgh South or Orkney and Shetland, for example, they can’t, but a very strong well known Yes campaigner can.
Of course, as I also keep saying, it depends on whether the SNP want to play with everyone else, we’ll see.
@Capella says: 26 September, 2014 at 1:29 pm:
“Re ONE SCOTLAND don’t you think it is only a matter of time before the tabloids are comparing that to ein reich?”
Well said, Capella. The people of, “NO”, (consequence), are great ones for missuse of their own native language, (some seem to speak it as natives of Outer Mongolia).
Listen to Cameron and you will hear him talk of either Great Britain, Britain or, “The Country”, when he actually means The United Kingdom. He speaks of, “The British Armed Forces”, but Britain does not have Armed Forces, they legally belong to, “Her Majesty”, as, The Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and the Soldiers of the Queen. Britain has eight countries and only four of them are parts of The United Kingdom.
Then we have Westminster, although still called, “The Parliament of the United Kingdom”, and officially still legally elected as a union of only two kingdoms that contained four countries. Yet Westminster has relegated Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to the status of regions of a United Kingdom that Westminster has made into a quadratic union of four countries with Westminster now the de facto Parliament of the country of England.
It has thus become as described by David Mundell as, “The Treaty of Union extinguished the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as The United Kingdom”. So the 1707 Kingdom of England has finally annexed the Kingdom of Scotland. That is if we Scots are stupid enough to allow them to get away with it.
Rock, people are entitled to refuse to do business with anyone they like. They’re also allowed to talk about it and even try to persuade others to do the same.
Screaming OTT rhetoric in all-caps is exactly the sort of thing that will get published in outlets like the Torygraph or the Huffington Post to show what dangerous fanatics we are. One wonders if that might actually have been the point of the post in the first place.
@Albalha
“And Aberdeen South, one wonders. Can’t see that as an SNP win from their current 4th, 11.9% share, may take a very good independent.”
you can see on Scotland Votes that, with the current SNP voting intentions of 38%, both Aberdeen North and Aberdeen South change from Labour to SNP.
Crazycat,
I think it was worse than annoying as it really decreased the ability of shops to coordinate among themselves and relay solutions to common problems encountered by each new opening. The wheel had to be reinvented far far too often. It also meant that stock was unable to be moved quickly and efficiently from shops with low turnover to ones with high volume periods such as festivals and holiday weekends. YES headquarters in this respect were amateurish and a web page with a contact list would have allowed the shops to simply deal direct with each other. All this damaged our campaign and so the chances of winning an independent Scotland.
Maybe now, post referendum, I am starting to see why that decision was taken by the professionals setting up YES in the beginning. It has left what was a nation wide network of experienced non party political activists without a way of talking to each other nationally. Each local group is isolated meaning activists are being drawn into old school nationwide political parties through lack of an on hand and workable alternative network.
Imagine YES’s network of experienced non party political activists had a voice at the moment and were able to organise themselves to speak with a single authorative voice? Would that not add a great deal of fresh political blood, vitality and practicality to the debate on the best way forward to fight the Westminster GE in 9 months time?
My own view, for what it’s worth, is that the top priority for any campaign is to destroy labour in Scotland by whichever means able, constituency by constituency. No labour in Scotland, no unionist authority in Scotland and therefor no union (short term). Ref. the Chekoslovakia break up after their 63% referendum rejection of splitting post Velvet Revolution. Shortly after the two countries none the less still split and without another referendum.
It’s not so many years ago the SNP didn’t have a candidate in all seats for Westminster. From the Holyrood %ages in scotlandvotes.com, target the remaining LibDem perhaps with a Green or Independent candidate with all support behind him/her, and in the 8 remaining Labour seats a mixture, perhaps with SSP the priority.
Morag
The more I read your posts the more I like you 🙂
@capella
Aberdeen North I have as an SNP win, but not Aberdeen South, time will tell.
I think what a lot of people need to realise is that a lot of SNP support at Hollyrood is simply down to the council tax freeze.
A lot of these people simply do not support the idea of independence. They are Tories at heart and voted no. They vote SNP for the council tax freeze and because it keeps labour out.
It will be a challenge to get these people onside. Even more so if we don’t understand the above in the first place.
@Albalha,
So Dundee West they can win, but Edinburgh South or Orkney and Shetland, for example, they can’t, but a very strong well known Yes campaigner can.
Of course, as I also keep saying, it depends on whether the SNP want to play with everyone else, we’ll see.
Spot on!
Morag,
“Screaming OTT rhetoric in all-caps is exactly the sort of thing that will get published in outlets like the Torygraph or the Huffington Post to show what dangerous fanatics we are”
Get real, Morag. What effect did playing nice have on the likes of the Torygraph and the Huffington Post? They still branded us dangerous fanatics didn’t they? You don’t want us to play according to their rules do you?
Read the post again, it is NOT all-caps, only caps at the start and end. Apart from that, I can’t find any fault with his comments.
As I said in a previous post, we will have to turn into Spartans if we want to get independence. That means helping each other directly, especially the poorest.
That can be achieved by an economic boycott of big business and using any money saved to help the poor.
? Love is in the air ? ?
Morag and Rock,
Just in relation to your posts, I think your right, Morag, that the media will pick up on anything they can to make the independence look like a swathe of fanatics.
The thing is, as we’ve seen, they’ll do that anyway. The pro-indy movement was immensely peaceful an dhunous in its conduct, with anger yes, but always tempered with the aforementioned humour.
I can’t help thinking that the time for us playing nice, just because we’re fearful about how the media present us, is gone.
The bias of the media and its fervent and indeed fanatical opposition to Scottish independence is now well known even outside of the indy movement.
I don’t think we have to quail before them any more. I think it’s time to square up to them and show that, where media is concerned, we can do it better.
There are signs that this is happening and imagine if we, the activists, can create a media network that actually starts to rival the mainstream established media.
As I say, there are signs that this is happening. I think we should keep pushing it and not let the media set the agenda.
We’re biting back, big time.
Sorry this is a bit rushed. My supper’s ready!
Here’s the Government stuff on fracking – it’s been around for a while. Surprised it didn’t seem to make it on to Yes Scotland’s campaign agenda, unless I missed something. It would’ve been huge, particularly among the home-owning section of the 55%…
https://www.gov.uk/oil-and-gas-onshore-exploration-and-production
@ braco
I agree with everything you said in your post about the shops.
@ capella
Does Scotland Votes use Uniform National Swing (UNS) to calculate which seats might change hands? I’m not sure that’s useful in Scotland, and with the uncertainties about how much an incumbency factor might help LibDems, or how UKIP might fail to win but still affect the outcome in lots of seats, it may not be useful anywhere else either.
@Kenny:
This site is pro-Microsoft…
🙂
There is a lag between when the message is committed and when it appears on the site. Not always, but most of the time. Might be a protection against flooding. Might be a bug of the CMS. There’s no way to tell.
Any alternative broadcasting has to be on Freeview and Freesat, as several people have pointed out.
Being online alone is pretty unless as that reaches the ‘yes audience’ only.
There’s a problem with Freeview, as anyone who lives outside the cities knows. The is no spare capacity on rural relays! They didn’t even make proper allowance for BBC Alba.
And, city dwellers also tend to be more Yes inclined than rural people.
Just had my topic of the day and it did indeed have a hazelnut in every bite 🙂 They do seem to be a lot smaller than I remember when I we’rt lad
We are developing a strategy to deal with BBC propaganda.They are developing a strategy to deal with incontinence.
@Pictish Ninja:
YES supporters ARE fanatics. They even eat haggis.
Truth,
Yes, the SNP have spent the last twenty years successively decoupling independence from their party political offering via the promise of a referendum on the subject. Now people are acting all surprised when SNP heartlands have taken them up on their offer of voting SNP for holyrood but NO in a referendum. I have great respect for the SNP and this position has only become clear post NO so no criticism is intended for using it as a possible strategy to independence. Unfortunately it failed and we must all face that fact
YES Scotland plus all the minor parties plus all the groupings such as RIC, women for Indy , business for Scotland, common weal, YES shop network etc etc PLUS the SNP were however able to deliver a YES in the labour heartlands!
It’s in these heartlands that we need to destroy labour. It stands to reason that the best tool to achieve that is a continuation of the YES mechanism that has already succeeded in that task rather than revert to an SNP political party that has historically and manifestly failed to make the headway in Westminster constituency labour heartlands the country now needs.
45% is not enough to win in a Yes/No referendum. It is plenty however to sweep the board in a multi party first past the post Westminster election. Especially in labour constituencies where voter turn out is pathetically low. YES did deliver that hard to motivate section of the non voting wring class electorate anther thing SNP alone have consistently failed to achieve.
Rock, when someone shows up here with a name I never saw before, and immediately posts exactly the sort of thing the unionist rags like to highlight to show what evil nutters we are, I get suspicious. Your mileage may vary.
Not sure the last message was sent. Sorry if it appears twice:
@Pictish Ninja:
YES supporters ARE barbarians: they eat haggis and love it. 😐
@ivan Mckee 4:14pm
Very solid advice Ivan. Some coordination and cooperation required to make the most efficient and effective use of all our resources.
Very important; newsnetscotland requires some help getting some extra names for petition against EBC PC. PLEASE HELP IF YOU CAN. VERY IMPORTANT. THANKS.
53% of the Scottish Electorate did not vote to keep Scotland in the United Kingdom.
We need to Know not Guess or make assumptions as to why people voted the way they did or even why they did not vote.
Would a questionnaire delivered to the whole electorate be feasible now there are nearly 100,000 activists.
With the answers we could be a lot more precise in targeting the areas that made people vote No.
Let me say it another way:
The YES Campaign relied on DEMOCRACY to give us Independence
Westminster relied on INTIMIDATION to prevent it.
Lets start those conversations again. Not for a Yes vote but to persuade your family, friends and neighbours to become involved by joining a pro-indy party.
It’s not important if they can’t donate any time at all but are at least seen to be contributing to the cause. Many, many will do this with just a little persuasion. We can make Scotland the most politically active country in Europe if not the world.
No one said it was going to be easy, get talking once more and make those membership numbers grow. There are still 1.5 million potential recruits out there.
Recruit one peerson each and…
Just five Welsh MPs voted against a new war in Iraq.
http://welshnotbritish.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/did-your-mp-vote-against-war-in-iraq.html (2 PC, 3 Lab)
What’s the figure looking like in Scotland?
SNP membership 67,027 54 mins ago, seems to still be growing at average 300 per hour apart from night-time.
@Albalha says: 26 September, 2014 at 1:34 pm:
“I see Jack Foster etc are saying they have enough cash and are suggesting people put their cash into other ventures, how much do they know of the other TV ventures.”
To be fair, Albalha, They only asked for enough cash to do the work of finding out if it was a possibly goer. The initial work will involve a small professional staff who not only will need paid but need a resonable front to deal at the level of other Terrestrial Digital TV broadcasters.
They cannot be too shoestring as to not be taken seriously by the Freeview people. There are other ways of getting on Freeview. There is the Community Channel for example. I’m of the opinion that it is pointless, (to paraphrase the old advert), to put anything on-line, “that will not reach the parts other broadcasts reach”, as it is those older and poorer Scots who are not on-line we need to reach.
That means Freeview TV and/or DAB Radio. Reason being that to set-up other terrestrial Radio & TV channels would mean building aerial masts and transmitters. Way out of a crowdfunding outfits range.
@braco
The strategy of the SNP to decouple independence from the rest of the party policy was successful in getting us to this point. I agree with that. The problem of this strategy is that effectively the SNP has not been arguing for independence in its own right for 20 years or so. Since the 1990s the SNP has been gradualist. It worked to get a parliament, then to get into office for the first time in 2007, then more powers and then 2011, and the holding of an independence referendum. I believe gradualism has been very good as a policy. The major drawback is that it prevented or restricted arguments for independence until 2012 to 2014. Even until the Edinburgh Agreement was signed in October 2012 there was still talk of more powers.
galamcennalath
Yes, a lot of areas in Scotland have to have satellite or get nothing.
Welsh not british
8- 5 SNP, 3 LAB inc anne begg
Newsnet Scotland, really do people want to fund them? They’re basically an SNP mouthpiece, fine if you’re into that but not if you want to support independent media, whatever that really means in the current landscape.
Personally I think the Newsnet fuelled anti BBC demos were a mistake and no doubt put people off voting Yes, let’s not forget, change for many is tough and, anti BBC Scotland demos weren’t the most constructive use of campaigning time.
Interesting to note that no RIC speakers turned up they were too busy getting the Yes vote out in the poorer parts of Glasgow and Dundee.
I wonder if we could do something with the Community Channel.
Have a wee scan here : –
http://www.communitychannel.org/info/advertising/
Sorry
10- 5 SNP, 5 lab
Sorry iScot. I’ve read your blurb but Dateline Scotland has already showcased their wares and was also endorsed by Stu. So my money has gone there. Hope you can still make a difference though, however it ends up.
Check for yourself
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britain-goes-war-iraq—4330312
Not sussed out how to do archive yet
@crazycat
I’ve no idea whether they use UNS or not as their website doesn’t give details of methodology although you can email them and ask.
I think the main value is to get a picture of what is possible given changes in percentage support. SNP are on 49.2% for the Holyrood election. I guess the reason their support is lower for Westminster is that people do not see the value in electing a Scottish party to Westminster. Perceptions might change if the SNP campaign on delivering Devo max (plus getting rid of Trident?). I’m leaving out the question of other parties such as the Greens as Westminster is a FPTP election. Perhaps someone with greater knowledge than me about how voting trends work can comment.
@braco 7.20pm
I get your point about the direction the SNP took to get their gains, but they are electable to centre right voters so we need use both the SNP – good record in Gov up here, don’t scare them with higher taxes on the middle earners etc, to get them to commit to Yes ( insert name here) alongside / in tandem with the centre left, left voters whom RIC, SSP, WFI , LFI etc have done such a fantastic job motivating to the Yes campaign.
I just like to say this is my first post and you guys make me so proud to be here in Scotland right now.
@Robert Peffers
“You do know the difference, Alistair, between nationalism and self determination, don’t you?”
Jeezo, who or what gives you the right to speak in such a patronising manner to anyone on this blog. The context of the discussion was how Yes can be rebranded, Nicola S having adopted the phrase on her yes book. Oh wait,I forgot, you seem to think you’re the only one on here who knows the history of the union and the nationalist movement.I bow to your obviously superior knowledge. Wonder how many votes that will get come next election.
Thanks, archive is easy.
Just visit http://archive.today
Paste the link in the first box and hit submit url then it’ll reload. You can copy the archived link as soon as it appears or if there’s a certain section of text you want to highlight, select it and the link changed auto-magically.
Hello againi muttley,
Yes I agree with your analysis of how the SNP has made advances and got us the referendum. We lost that referendum and in the SNP heartlands to boot. All I am saying is that new knowledge must be accepted and factored in to however we decide to move forward to gain independence. As it stands at the moment I am far from convinced the SNP as a party alone is the best hope for independence in the short to medium term.
The YES campaign has added significant new weaponry to the independence movements armoury and we now need to calmly analyse how best to continue to deploy them (and more importantly refine the target).
My top target would be Labour in Scotland at the next Westminster elections. They are the unions fingers clinging on to the Scottish cliff edge. Prize them off one at a time and the union will fall to its death.
@capella
There is also Electoral Calculus, which does use USN. It has a regional calculator at
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/userregpoll.html
Did I just read that Sir Ian Wood has just been awarded the contract for fracking? Reward for services to the union? I feel we have just been shafted.
anyone here seen this you tube video about a guy who found a bag full of yes vote polling papers, found next to a bin in duke street , by someone by the name of john son of david citing electoral fraud
Welsh not British
Thanks, just tried and it worked. Yeehaa 🙂
I want to know if these are valid voting papers, first.
Easy enough hoax to carry out. Anyone who had a postal vote had the opportunity to make as many copies of the ballot paper as they liked. Anyone who wanted to wind people up could then pull a stunt like this.
The way the poly bag of papers was found seems very suspicious to me.
@braco
Kudos to the SNP for getting Scotland a referendum in the first place but I totally agree that the SNP alone is not the way to Independence.
It has been reported that at least 37% of Labour supporters voted Yes, this is huge as many of them will not be returning as supporters of the Labour party.
Labour left them, there is no doubt of that, these supporters are the ones with their eyes open and are signing up in great numbers to the SNP, Greens and SSP. We all have different political views, though these differences in general are small. We do share though one common goal and that is to escape from the clutches of the Westminster establishment.
We absolutely need to put aside all these minor differences in pursuit of the one common aim. We can do that I’m sure, let’s unite in a common cause and blow the other lot out of the water in 2015 and 2016.
Morag,
“the sort of thing the unionist rags like to highlight to show what evil nutters we are”
The unionist rags presented us as “evil nutters” all the way to the referendum anyway. They ignored the much worse anti-independence “evil nutters” posting on the rags.
Are you so frightened of these rags that you want to impose censorship, the very thing you (rightly) don’t like newsnetscotland doing?
I can’t see anything ‘evil’ or ‘nutty’ about calling for a boycott of businesses that stole our independence by their scaremongering and lies.
In this rotten to the core system where even the Electoral Commission is biased and dishonest (distributing Better Together lies, CBI), an economic boycott to further our cause makes perfect sense to me, whether the rags like it or not.
Even Alex Salmond (in his constituency speech after resigning) had a go at Asda and BP for their scaremongering.
if he does take them to the ec , if they are real would they admit it , what happens if they are , is duke street near a polling station or a count hall , anyone know who this guy is , is he gen or is he a wind up merchant.
@handclapping
Thanks. Will try it out.
If the SNP membership keeps growing, it may actually pass the UK conservatives figure of around 170000. Then Labour on 190000.
If YOU haven’t joined and Indy party, you think about it!
@thedogphilosopher 4:47 pm
“On the topic of small publications – someone earlier mentioned Private Eye and it occurred to me that a similar satirical/informative style publication could fill a gap instead of trying to create a proper Newspaper. Most of the information that passes through Wings could easily be reformulated for copy, being both informative but in a style that entertains. The very effective cartoons for instance would be perfect for the ‘zine’-like style. You could publish once a month or fortnightly if successful.
Just an idea …”
Brilliant idea – “Private Aye”!
@braco
Yes, I agree that SLAB need to be targeted. As to the SNP, I would expect Nicola Sturgeon to be more adept at targeting urban Labour heartlands compared to Salmond.
I agree we need to target Labour in the run up to the next election. One way is via the trade unions.
Those of us within unions need to be more active within their inner workings. They always counter complaints about their policy with “change it from within” so why don’t we do just that.
Cut their funding. All unions are now obliged to have a separate political fund, which you can opt out of. Use this option, opt out, and let them know why you are doing so. Encourage others to do likewise.
If you can, a final option is of course to simply find a union that is friendly to your ideals.
How do you do that “archive” thingy?
IMO t.v. Channels and newspapers are a great idea, but will not reach the 55%. Regarding the G.E campaign, I’m sure SNP will run a positive message. So it will be up to us to fight dirty! The only way to convert labour voters is to expose labour via traditional advertising. I was thinking bus stops, billboards, public transport, newspapers etc. I realise this is an expensive option, but better to crowd fund this rather than media only we will view.
@crazycat @handclapping
OK I’ve fed the stats into the Electoral Calculus site and here’s the result (if this works)
http://tinyurl.com/q927krv
Shows same gains as the Scotland Votes site including Aberdeen North and South, Aberdeenshire, Edinburgh East and West etc.
If the link doesn’t take you to my results page then just type in the Yougov figures and run the predictor.
SNP 38%
LAB 33%
CON 16%
LD 5%
GRN 4%
UKIP 3%
If we are serious about independence, it will be vital for the SNP, the Socialists, the Greens, Labour independence activists, RIC etc to put aside their political differences and put up single Yes candidates for the 2015 Westminster election.
And they should not be SNP only. All interested parties must get together and work out the best candidates to unseat the unionists.
If Tommy Sheridan can support a vote for the SNP, there is no reason why the SNP cannot support a vote for Tommy Sheridan in a seat where he has a good chance of winning.
Same for other non-SNP Yes leaders.
And we must not give a damn whether the rags, the BBC or the British establishment like it or not. From now on, we play according to our rules, not theirs (within the law of course).
@alistair says:26 September, 2014 at 1:46 pm:
“Anyway, bigger political potatoes than nobodies like me will no doubt come up with something”
Whoa! There! Alistair, This is NOT a Big Political Potato”, movement. It is a grassroots movement and that means a bottom up movement and that is the pure beauty of it. We should cling to as much of what got us here as we can so I suggest we retain, somewhere in the title/slogan the word YES for the whole Western World identifies us with it.
Something like, “YES we’re still here”.
Or even, “YES we’re here”.
or “YES we will”.
or,”YES we can”.
or, “Oh! YES we will”
The author of that video.
@joe
…is he gen or is he a wind up merchant.
Joe I think the clue is in his on-line name, ( john son of david). On-line psychotic by the sound of it.
Alex Clark ,
Totally agree. Hope the SNP leadership are big enough to take all that on board and remain the guiding hand from WITHIN the greater multi party, non party and Indy grouping YES movement that succeeded in uniting 45% of the voting public behind scottish independence, in the face of shameful all encompassing establishment fearmongering, lies and manipulation.
Fingers crossed. But time is of the essence as the second bite of the cherry is less than nine months away and that incredible 97% voter registration figure still in play (especially in those low turn out west of scotland labour heartlands).
Hello people
I’m new here so this is an introduction for me although I’ve been reading through the forum for a few days now,
I’ve always been a supporter of independance and voted SNP since the first time I was eligable to vote although I never believed it could ever happen.
I’ve been totally ambivillant towards the referendum campaign thinking we’ll vote we’ll lose and we’ll never see it again untill the last few weeks leading up to voting day when I began to believe we might just do it, in fact in my city of Dundee it looked like a certainty
The Unionists may have won the day but they had to lie, beg, cheat and intimidate to do it and that makes it a shallow victory and one that won’t stick
since the results my emotions have been a mixture of anger, sadness and sheer disbelief we turned down this opportunity, but as the dust settles and my mind clears I’m left with the feeling that all the Unionists and their media machinery have achieved is to expose themselves for what they really are, there is not one grain of integrity left in any of them especially Gordon Brown.
The fire is still burning and If we can expose them to more people and wipe them out of Scotland at the next general election surely we can force another referendum only this time we win
Graeme
Grendel
Copy the link that you want, go to archive today website, paste it in submit url box, when it comes up copy it and then paste it on this site or wherever. I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Bt54bATIE
ahem
Here are the seats the SNP are predicted to win from Lab and Lib given the Yougov voting intentions. Note the Roxburgh seat is a Con gain from Liberal (Michael Moore) Some very famous heads would roll including Danny Alexander, Menzies Campbell, Malcolm Bruce, Ann Begg, Frank Doran, Robert Smith, John Thurso. Perhaps the other parties would be able to win in other seats? Of course this depends on how voting intentions change over the next few months.
Aberdeen North
Aberdeen South
Aberdeenshire West and Kincardine
Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk CON gain from LIB
Caithness Sutherland and Easter Ross
Dunbartonshire East
Dundee West
Edinburgh East
Edinburgh West
Falkirk
Fife North East
Gordon
Kilmarnock and Loudoun
Livingston
Midlothian
Ochil and South Perthshire
Stirling
@ capella
Thanks for doing that. I did try to reply to you earlier but my comment refused to submit. It more or less said:
Electoral calculus annoyed me years ago with this heading:
“As a large and distinct region of the country, Scotland enjoys its own political atmosphere. Polling in Scottish newspapers and media also allows us to make specific predictions for Scottish seats at Westminster.”
I drafted a stroppy message to them, but never sent it. Maybe a bit late now.
@Robert Peffers:
YES minster?
https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/adam-ramsay/quick-note-on-party-memberships-in-uk
Accroding to that Conservative membership UK is 134,000 with Ruth Davidson claiming 12.000 for Scotland in 2012.
Shuggy @ 7.12pm
I’ve been thinking the same thing… Why wasn’t this made more public, cus whilst it was on my radar, nobody on either side was making much noise about it.
according to this site – there will be no Devo max or Home Rule for Scotland http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2014/09/devo-max-what-it-is-and-why-it-wont-happen/comment-page-1/#comment-226864
@snode1965
So it will be up to us to fight dirty! The only way to convert labour voters is to expose labour via traditional advertising. I was thinking bus stops, billboards, public transport, newspapers etc. I realise this is an expensive option, but better to crowd fund this rather than media only we will view
Good idea.
It’s blindingly obvious that there has to be some kind of Yes Alliance for 2015.
However, we are now into party politics and exactly what kind of deal might be struck we shall know in good time. But it would surprise me if the Greens & SSP did not insist on at least one seat each to target. Apart from anything else, both parties have a lot of new members to train up and get used to election campaigning, and they can do that much more effectively if they are the lead campaigners in given seats.
Morag’s point about putting up independent candidates in some of the (mostly) Lib Dem areas is a good one. There are a number of impressive non-party people who made their mark in Yes who might be prepared to do this.
On a more sombre note, it’s worth remembering that the Labour machine proved effective in the end – however much we may have derided it. They saw their priorities clearly – command the MSM – go all out for the older vote – keep their loyal voters loyal. Even that (despicable) ‘if you don’t know, vote No’ probably worked. The happy-clappy anarchic forces of Yes gave them a nasty scare, but in the end the old methods won.
So – we re-enter the campaign sadder but wiser. Gone are the carefree balloons and the Yes cafes for all comers. It’s back to the hard grind – making sure we target what we need to target and find the most effective way of doing that.
We had an interesting debrief in West Lothian. Yes won where we concentrated heavily on traditional door-to-door canvassing – it’s a correlation, no more than that. It may be that all our fun high-viz stuff swung very few votes indeed. The No campaign ignored that kind of frippery and just pumped out the negative message relentlessly. And won.
As someone said, personality and constituency work generate loyalty, and from that point of view Alistair Carmichael is probably as safe as oil is for the next 100 years. He does work for his constitunecy, particularly regarding crown estate. Charles Kennedy is possibly also safe, regardless of overall swing, though mmmm, perhaps not now – Independence did bite there.
Generally though I’ve noticed that Scotland is becoming as tactical voting as England at times, unlike in the 90s or before when I used high loyalty factors in Scotland and Wales (and NI) as opposed to tactical voting factors for England, to get a 1 seat error on a PC mag disk computer program from the 1997 election and exit poll. Jon Snow was still oiling his swingometer! Wish I still had that program, the data was fully updateable.
Which makes most seats up for grabs.
Well, that’s what happens when you declare that your campaign is the grass-roots and only the grass-roots, and then simply leave them to get on with it. Some things are done well, but some things are not. A lot of effort may be put into things that have no effect at all. Some fertile initiatives may simply not find a backer.
This to me was one of the main failings of Yes Scotland. They seem to have had the idea that they could simply sit back and let the grass-roots get on with it. No thought about identifying weaknesses and plugging the gaps, no thought even of putting reinforcements in to help in promising areas where the grass-roots were stretched.
I spent a long time trailing round outlying areas with Yes literature. As the campaign wore on, I realised the literature was getting less and less useful We were told that everything had to be “pitch-perfect”, but when it appeared it was bland and anodyne. I wondered if I was doing cargo cult campaigning.
We wondered for ages, what the Yes campaign was doing. People spoke about keeping powder dry, waiting till you could see the whites of their eyes, rope-a-dope and so on. We expected some sort of intervention near the end. I was told the third independence march was cancelled because Yes had a detailed programme for the last four to six weeks and that didn’t fit in it. But nothing happened.
I don’t know how much difference it would have made if Yes Scotland had been more pro-active. If Yes Scotland had produced an equivalent of the Wee Blue Book. If they had supported the RIC in getting out the vote in deprived areas. I’d feel a bit better if they’d tried though.
It’s blindingly obvious that there has to be some kind of Yes Alliance for 2015.
if you want to precipitate a unionist alliance then go ahead, this will kill the yes camp stone dead, our only chance is to win big in 2015, alliances must wait for the 2016 HE
the greens and the ssp dont even contest GE’s? why do the snp need to form alliances with them for the GE?
better if nicola appointed patrick harvey as minister for the emvironment in her first cabinet
just been reading about non-partisan democracy; are there laws in UK against standing for election when you are a member of a political party but not labelling yourself under that party e.g. SNP candidate standing as ‘Scottish Socialist alliance’ or some title that doesn’t actually exist as a political party?
Sorry if that’s a stupid question.
THE MAKER TO POSTERITY
Far ‘yont amang the years to be
When a’ we think, an a’ we see,
An a’ we luve, ‘s been dung ajee
Bi time’s rouch shouther,
An what was richt an wrang for me
Lies mangled throu’ther,
It’s possible–it’s hardly mair–
That some ane, ripin efter lear–
Some auld professor or young heir,
If still there’s aither–
Mey finnd an read me, an be sair
Perplexed, puir brither!
“What tongue dis your auld beukie speak?”
He’ll spier; an I, his mou to steek :
“No bein fit to write in Greek,
I wrote in Lallan,
Dear to my hert as the peat reek,
Auld as Tantallon.
“Few spak it than, an noo there’s nane.
My puir auld sangs lies a’ their lane,
Their sense, that aince was braw an plain,
Tint a’thegither,
Like runes upon a standin stane
Amang the heather.
“But thinkna you the brae to speel;
You, tae, maun chow the bitter peel;
For a’ yer lear, for a’ yer skeel,
Ye’re nane sae lucky;
An things is mebbe waur than weel
For you, my buckie.
“The hale concern (baith hens an eggs,
Baith beuks an writers, stars an clegs)
Noo stachers upon lowsent legs
An weirs awa;
The tack o mankind, near the dregs,
Rins unco law.
“Your beuk, that in some braw new tongue,
Ye wrote or prentit, preached or sung,
Will still be juist a bairn, an young
In fame an years,
Whan the hale planet’s guts is dung
Aboot your ears;
“An you, sair gruppin to a spar
Or whammled wi some bleezin star,
Cryin, to ken whaur deil ye are,
Hame, France, or Flanders–
Whang sindry like a railway car
An flees in danders.”
By R. L. Stevenson
Didn’t realise that there is a Scotland page in the Eletoral Calculus site. Ran the Yougov figures again (unfortunately no option to add Green or SSP) and the picture is even better with Alisdair Darling and Mark Lazarowicz also losing to SNP on current voting intentions.
http://tinyurl.com/lxataos
Oh come on folks, I think we are over-analyzing this.
The YES campaign made a few mistakes, but overall it was a fantastic campaign. It was just a bridge too far, that is all.
The people of Scotland are not yet ready for independence. Not quite, but they are closer than they have ever been,thanks to a wonderful grass roots movement, and some amazing blunders by BT. The NO vote came through in spite of BT, not because of it.
Another Scottish referendum is off the table for the foreseeable future. And perhaps just as well, since the 55+ group remain stubbornly resistant to the concept of independence. The only scenario I could imagine within the next 5-10 years that would warrant one would be if the UK threatened to take Scotland, against its will, out of Europe, following the expected EU referendum in 2017. In my opinion, a referendum on full independence remains a bridge too far. We may take the 45% to 49%, or even 51% within 5 years, but this is not guaranteed. We need to consolidate our gains, and strengthen the hard YES, before the next big push.
In the meantime, we have to press Westminster for as much power as possible, and show that we are fighting for Scotland, not just fighting for independence. In the short term, every effort must be made to ensure that unionist parties (well, one in particular) loose a significant number of seats in 2015. It won’t be easy – Labour still command huge majorities in the central belt. However, this is also where support for independence is strongest (hence Labour are now rather worried!).
Labour are vulnerable in their strongholds and can be defeated. If the SNP go soft on independence and future referenda for a brief period, and campaign on a Devo Max ticket in 2015 (as the demonstrated current choice of the majority of people in Scotland), then Labour would find it very difficult to stem the leakage of huge numbers of traditional voters. Even if DevoMax cannot be achieved under the current Westminster stranglehold, DevoMax remains a hugely popular aspiration and any party seen campaigning for this has a natural advantage. There is a real opportunity to irrevocably damage the Labour unionist strongholds in Scotland. The Labour Party is, rightly, seen as the last big unionist hurdle to Scottish independence. Without the full collaboration of the leadership of the Labour Party, Westminster would have lost Scotland last week.
In order to take Labour seats, however, it is absolutely vital that those first time voters, who came out in their thousands to vote YES last week, are encouraged to do so again. A tall order, now that many will be disappointed and may revert to non-engagement, but vital nonetheless.
http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/userpoll_scot.html
For just Scotland
Hello hand clapper.
What is this thing you have about ‘old people’. Is it old people in general or just perhaps those of a senior disposition who for one reason or another voted ‘NO’?.
If it’s just those who were were NO voters, then why not make that clear. Not that it makes it correct.
But, if that is the case, why do you find it necessary to maligne them as free-loaders, suggesting that they might only be interested in news illustrations if they came free of charge and suggesting, rather patronisingly, certain other illustrations more likely to be read by them like, for example, the daily Express or the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party litrature in order to “get to all the old fogeys”. Such a demeaning term, don’t you think?. Would the Rev really have suggested that they should, FUCK OFF YOU VOTED FOR IT ?. Surely not.
Another quote you used related to something Nye Beven used during his campaign to create the N.H.S. In his attempts to ‘win over’ medical practitioners. Namely, STUFF THE BASTARDS MOUTHS WITH MONEY, We’re you really referring to vulnerable old people when you quoted “NYE”. Or all of the NO voters?.
well CLAPPER, what is your problem?.
Is it not possible for you to consider that during all of the concentrated attacks on the aged, the sick or infirm, by the mass media, and being told by the likes of Gordon Brown and constantly by Jim Murphy, and others, that the old in particular would find their pensions in jeopardy, that that would tend to frighten the life out of old people.
Particularly those on a meagre state pension with no other income to fall back on is it too much to understand how vulnerable they would feel and therefor vote accordingly.
So, how about reflecting on some of what you have posted and give it a break.
@Capella
Menzies Campbell is definitely retiring. I think we all know where he is likely to end up…
I am not convinced about having a formal electoral Yes alliance. I thought it would be a good idea in the wake of the result, probably trying to remain positive. However, I do not think it will work. Firstly, if a formal Yes alliance stood, then unionist parties and voters would react against this, and there would be a backlash. They are still in the majority, 55 per cent. As the Libs Dems are going to get hammered in Scotland because they did a deal with the Tories, unionist voters are either going to vote Labour and Tories. It would shore both parties up. Ideally, I think it would be better to see the continuing decline of the Lib Dems and the Tories in Scotland, with the pro-independence parties making inroads into SLAB’s remaining heartlands in urban areas. A formal Yes alliance would be welcomed by the Scottish Tories in particular. They really believe in the Union, and it would really galvanise and motivate them imo.
@Snode1965 at 8:28
At last. Agree 100%. All the new media ideas are excellent but they won’t reach the 73% of over 65’s who voted No. They will still get their news from the BBC and the Daily Record or Daily Mail. Why do you thin there is such a big difference between SNP voting intentions for the Scottish Parliament and Westminster Elections. The Labour Party will play the same card that they have used over and over again and it will be repeated on a daily basis by the BBC and all the newspapers, namely that “if you vote SNP you will let the Tories in”. This is the message that the Labour Party will use to win their Scottish seats at the next election. This is the message that needs to be totally discredited, or better still aim to discredit the messenger – The Labour Party itself. This can only be done by using the unionist supporting media against them however costly that may be.
I love toys. With electoral calculus, 45% SNP, 22% Labour, 10% Tory and 6% LibDem it’s also bye-bye Margaret Curran 🙂
With regard to agreeing a Yes Alliance, it certainly has its merits.
Even if the SNP were to pick up 40 seats on their own next year, can we really be sure of what kind of quality these new MPs are going to bring. In fact, perhaps the downside of the SNP’s majority in 2011 was precisely the fact that a number of those who won their seats, or got in on the list, are basically not very good MSPs (see Walker, B., although there are several other cases).
With a Yes Alliance, and with candidates coming from a range of backgrounds, this quality and personality would likely be increased, with members already known to the public from Business for Scotland, Radical Independence, National Collective, as well as the Greens and SSP: Michelle Thomson, Cat Boyd, Maggie Chapman and Colin Fox to name just a few.
Also, in terms of feet on the ground, I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that the SNP would have more than the other parties. For example, if the Greens target one Glasgow seat and let’s say they have 3,000 Glasgow members, you would imagine they would all campaign in the target seat, rather than campaign for the SNP where they live. Whereas, the SNP activists would be spread further.
Someone in the SSP might be able to tell me this, but I believe they’ve got a decent setup in West Dunbartonshire, and that’s where they have their only councillor. And despite the high Yes vote there, the SNP haven’t had much success there in recent times, so maybe an SSP candidate would be more likely of attracting the Labour vote. Getting the CND actively involved in that area would also be positive, to make sure the anti-Trident camp there get out and vote.
I see the Greens have already announced a candidate for Edinburgh East, and it’s the Edinburgh Uni rector. I thought that might have been more of a likely SNP win, with the Greens perhaps concentrating on Edinburgh North & Leith, and Edinburgh South in Edinburgh.
However, if Green and SSP voters vote for the SNP where they have to, will the majority of SNP voters do the same for them? Perhaps some polling is in order to find out.
kininvie
Tommy Sheridan against Margaret Curran or Ian Davidson 🙂
I do wish that Morag would quit with her constant egotistical, superiority complex based snide criticism of other posters comments. As if Wings is her property. Then she criticises newsnet for its mod policy, but at least newsnet makes sure commenters aren’t subject to the kind of abuse that Morag seems to believe is helpful to the Yes campaign ongoing. Ok she did plenty work leafleting etc but then how many potential yes voters has she scared off with that moaning carping bullying tone in virtually all her comments. Rant over.
@muttley79 –
Ming will never retire. Ever.
And even if he does, there’s no room for him or other newcomers in the HoL. (:))
@Luigi
Makes sense.
As for yes alliance provoking unionist backlash, I’m not so sure. Based on my own experience of no voters, I can’t see Tories voting for Labour and vice versa. Just my feeling. Also, the referendum had a huge turnout on BOTH sides. if we’re getting out the vote, will they? No was a default position for many. They have no sustained interest in what’s going on.
Perceptive piece in the New Statesman about Nicola becoming First Minister. NS seems quite fair about Indyref.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/why-salmonds-departure-wont-weaken-snp
for you Fiona
Just because
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_RjlIPuqyc
PEACE
@Morag
On the march: I did not have a problem with it being called off this year. Marches and rallies really only preach to the converted, or serve as a feel good factor for those already convinced Yessers. There was always the chance that there would have been an incident, it being so close to the vote as well.
Spectator article by Alex Massie saying that despite surge in SNP membership, Labour are not dead yet in Scotland:
“It’s all too easy to forget how impregnable Labour’s position in the west of Scotland really is. Easy to forget because it is so depressing to remember. There are 18 western constituencies in which Labour won more than 50 percent of the vote in 2010. Eighteen.
A Scottish Mail on Sunday poll last sabbath reported that Labour still hold a six point lead over the SNP when it comes to Westminster voting intention: Labour 39, SNP 33, Conservatives 18, Liberal Democrats 3.”
Archived article here: https://archive.today/njmQD
Morag
All I did was Herald postings, and before that Guardian, apart from talking to people. From the sidelines YES Scotalnd were appalling. I read a (genuine) YES supporter saying he went into the YES building, ignored, Jenkins walking straight past, them having worried looking conferences. He went into the NO one, handshake Blair McDougall or someone else, welcomed, smiles, no push.
YES directors resigning, paid, new computer kit a fortune, made a meal out of being hacked and police. Pleny of money donated even if less than NO, billboards balnd and meaningless, newspapers boring and on about Trident, no substance, no easy check-list, no refuting the NO lies.
From one YES shop I went into it was their own material, very little lying around you could take away, not their fault, they funded it, not YES.
I think we all held our peace during the campign, don’t rock the boat, though I made a few critical postings in the Herald about their garbage website which didn’t even work properly with all browsers. Even a unionist poster agreed, and he must have been delighted it was so rubbish!
braco at 8pm
None of the SNP “heartland” seats have an overall SNP majority in them. We hold them all on a minority of the total vote and there was no high expectation that we would easily win them in a YES/NO referendum
Robert Peffers
Posted by me earlier on today:-
I think that we need to move quickly to get some kind of slogan or name of a new organisation that we can rally round.
The YES campaign seems to have disappeared, so we need a new brand.
The youth of Scotland got right behind the YES campaign, but if there is a vacuum, they will start to lose interest. That is the last thing we need.
And not just the youth of Scotland, we must get something put together to keep ALL of those who voted for Independence interested.
So, I hope someone comes out with a word or words that we can get on posters and badges, that can be put on cars, windows and flag poles again.
I still use the YES material but I think we are in need of a re-branding.
Robert, I think there was a bit of cross wiring going on between you and Alistair.
He was only replying to the above comment made by me.
I hope you read my comment Robert, because I would like to know if YES is going to get a re-branding or not, and your input would be gratefully appreciated.
Luigi @ 9.33 bang on!
fionan
Im with Morag, what she says regarding the Official YES Campaign is spot on.
Piemonteis
I don’t theink the quality of the SNP MPs will matter one bit, it’s their voting power, that’s what matters.
I’m in NE Fife in the No village! Full of English quite well to do people, all absolutely against Scottish Independence! I had my YES badge ( the wee shiny one! ) on tonight. Was told in no uncertain terms that there was a No in the Referendum and we don’t want anymore discussion about it, even though I didn’t bring it up!
This is Ming Campbell’s district. They even think that it’s a good thing to bomb Iraq!
Morag is right in one thing! I wondered too what the YES paper was all about! It was amateurish and embarrassing!
I listened to John Swinney on the big debate today. He was aggressive and fantastic! Why during the Referendum campaign was he quiet and indecisive! I groaned when I knew he was going to debate!
I’m cheesed off! I’ve been a loyal member of the SNP for 38 years but they could have been much more aggressive. What about McCrone?, what about fracking! I’m not seeing the future!,
I’m off to a rally in Edinburgh tomorrow with a heavy heart! Don’t get me wrong. I have always supported Alex Salmond and the SNP, but I’m not sure things went well in this last year! I was always waiting for the big ” event ” , promised to clinch it! I’m 68 years old and I don’t think I’ll see Scotland Independent!
On the announcement of Ian Wood getting the fracking licence.
A month or so ago, when he came out with his ridiculous U-turn on oil and managed to lose 8bn barrels, a quick google search came up with some interesting business news.
The traditional servicing division he’s known for in Aberdeen is declining fairly rapidly and recognising this, he bought a fracking company in the US. The Wood Group are doing very nicely out of it – it’s obvious that this is the company future as it’s the only operation they have that makes any money.
These results were released within days of the infamous Wood u-turn we witnessed on the BBC.
Coincidence that now he’s given a fracking licence ? A little pat on the back for his weasel words methinks..
@indyref2
There is no way that SLAB are only going to get 22 per cent of the vote in the general election next year. It would be great if it happened, but realistically no chance.
@Piemonteis
The more I think of a formal Yes alliance the less convinced I am of its merits. It would galvanise 55 per cent of those who voted No. They would regard it, almost certainly correctly, as the Yes campaign continuing, despite getting beat in the referendum by a majority vote. It would make them collectively more hostile to independence. I agree with Luigi’s post at 9:33 pm. We need to campaign for more powers for Holyrood under the UK system. To continue as a Yes campaign would be disastrous, and it would really piss off more than 50 per cent of the electorate at a stroke. By doing so, you would make winning a future independence referendum all the more difficult, perhaps impossible.
Cheers A N Surgent:
https://archive.today/D1mWY
@Ian Brotherhood says: 26 September, 2014 at 2:32 pm:
“There are, what, 41 Scottish MPs?
59 from Scotland but that’s including the SNP members. However, The Boundary Commission published detailed proposals to cut seven Scottish MPs, reducing the number from 59 to 52. I cannot remember if that is to go ahead.
The SNP puts up a candidate in every constituency anyway but I would suggest the SSP might have a better following in some more traditional former Labour constituencies.
SNP playing the long game with the vote “NO” today. They know that Cameron is going to be sending his fighter jets into Syria in the very near future.
That turns the UK bombing campaign into an illegal war because Syria did not authorise the UK to enter it’s air space.
The SNP will then use that as another reason to get out of this rotten union. I think they call it, “roping a dope”
@Flower of Scotland
Just you keep hanging on in there, you’ve managed for 38 years and you should never say never. Stranger things have happened and there is something in the air.
Yeskndyref2
Tommy Sheridan should contest Ian Davidson’s seat. He is the local candidate.
The Indiegogo Broadcast News for Scotland appeal is a ba’-hair off £30,000.
A magnificent effort all-round.
But let’s get this in perspective – Alistair Darling has, in the not too recent past (April before last if memory serves?) made even more, by providing three speeches (to different business ‘lunches’) in just one day.
And isn’t The Frothing Cock-ring on 20k (allegedly) now that his bosses got the result they wanted?
Yesindyref2
I would argue that in a Westminster parliament that is less the case. Even with 40 MPs, the votes of SNP MPs would not be guaranteed to make a difference. Arguably, their main task would be to make things difficult for the government, and that’s more likely to happen with stronger characters.
In my view, the 2020 election will be the crucial one, not the one next year. There is next to no chance of a referendum within the next parliamentary term, but shortly after, who knows. And to ensure the election of pro-independence MPs is sustainable and not just a one-election stand, they need to be re-electable in a personal capacity, otherwise we end up with the “monkey in a yellow and black rosette” situation that has ultimately destroyed Labour.
Muttley, I agree with you about the march, it was better not to do it. I just wondered, where was this carefully orchestrated last few weeks of the Yes campaign we were being told about when the cancellation happened? It didn’t materialise.
You know I’m not a fan of conspiracy theories. So I’ll not say any more about what I sometimes wonder about all this.
Luigi said and a couple of people have supported his approach that we should be seen to be pushing over the next period for Devo Max. This is likely to be what every other party says that it is going to deliver fully after the General Election, so how does the SNP and/or Yes differentiate itself?
Also, 45% of a large voting population wanted independence. How many of them will come out to vote if this is watered down to Devo Max.
tartanfever
I searched for quite a time for anything new about Ian Wood and fracking, and can’t find anything. This could be the usual cyber-rumour, best to wait until confirmed.
Mutley
Why not? Labour were the vigorous party in the referendum, and if there’s no significant powers forthcoming, they can be hit, and hit hard. Then there’s Miliband and Labour’s increasingly right-wing policies, child benefit, the rest of it. Times are changing, and a significant number don’t vote the way the generations before them did.
Rebrand: YES “soon”.
@Robert Peffers (10.24) –
Sorry mister, I should’ve specified that I was referring to Scottish Labour MPs.
(It is 41, right?)
One of the reasons I thought we’d win was that we had the strategists planning this. That the SNP was full of people who had been waiting their entire lives for a shot at a Yes vote, and had the political acumen to run a winning campaign.
Now I realise very well that we were doing not too badly until the last two weeks, and then we were bludgeoned to death by the BBC and others. But it seems we were doing not too badly despite Yes Scotland rather than because of it, and the napalming followed by the devo-max bribe were kind of predictable.
A large part of the mistake seems to have been this idea that if the other guy is running a negative campaign, all you have to do is run a positive campaign and you’ll win. That’s psychobabble bollocks. But they believed it. So they thought all the had to do was keep smiling at the voters and getting us to pass round pictures of happy smiling Scots and it would all be fine.
The last referendum broadcast was very good, compared to patronising Better Together lady, but it wasn’t enough. We had to address the smears and the scares specifically, and it wasn’t done for fear of being “negative”.
Where did all the Weirs’ money go anyway?
@Flower of Scotland
I have to agree about the Yes newspapers. Very little or no substance in regards the content. Very bland as well. We were going for independence, not handing out average editions of a local newspaper! No individual leaflets on pensions, currency etc, pointing out the simple facts.
on ‘rebranding’ –
As and until there is agreement on all these things, it’s worth noting that ‘I Voted Yes’ = IVY.
Perhaps some bright spark could do something with that – sprigs of ivy, badges, a tasteful line in wooly jumpers etc etc…a kind of code, like the wee white rose.
There were some specific leaflets sent as pdfs to members. I printed out some for our public meeting. “Gains of Yes for…” families, pensioners and so on. But these were kind of boilerplate too, and there’s a limit to what an individual with an inkjet printer can do. I never saw printed copies of these.
They mainly kept saying, well Scotland is a rich country so we’ll be able to do all this stuff. Which was actually true, but you have to be a wee bit more specific about where it’s all coming from before people believe you.
I expect the Mansion tax will be, “kicked into touch” in favor of a UK wide property revaluation, since the last one was done over 25 years ago, well before the various property bubbles, crashes and subsequent increases occurred. The revaluation would increase the levels of, “Council Tax” substantially.
Another severe hit on the income of the electorate.
http://caltonjock.com/2014/09/26/the-mansion-tax-pie-in-the-sky/
Like the idea of a secret code 🙂 I have changed my FB avatar from a pee the bed flower (after the vote) to a nice unicorn yesterday, as I’m trying to move on. Joined the SNP, and have done all the little consumer things as well. However, peed off again, as I’m in the central belt and reading up about Fracking – ARRRGGHH! So MANY things this week – 1 week after the decision, and we are in a war again. My local area is doing a food drive tho, I think inspired byt the George Sq thing, so will defo do that. Today’s Scotsman – Nicola warns of a 2nd referendum 🙂
Electoral fraud…by john son of david
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ewcSKlWFcs#t=24
As and until there is agreement on all these things, it’s worth noting that ‘I Voted Yes’ = IVY.
Perhaps some bright spark could do something with that – sprigs of ivy, badges, a tasteful line in wooly jumpers etc etc…a kind of code, like the wee white rose.
Ian, my immediate reaction to that is, that’s brilliant! That could be the brand we’re looking for! Only three letters, like “Yes”. Simple and obvious.
I’m probably running ahead of myself, maybe it’s too excluding of No voters, but in principle, I like it.
IMO the UKGE15 (FPTP) and SGE16 (PV + lists) both need completely different stratergies and tactics. Both however have as a target the elimination of the Labour party in Scotland.
The GE15 requires a Yes Alliance to work together to put up the best possible candidate for each of the very different constituencies. This means that all the voters for YES must vote for this candidate regardless of party affiliation. It’s FPTP so the collected votes could make the necessary difference.
SNP candidates would probably make up the largest contingent spread out over Scotland. The Greens should go for the affluent, environmentally minded areas of e.g. Edinburgh.
SSP/RIC, central belt opportunities and here I’d love to see Sheridan go for one of the Labour strongholds in Glasgow. 🙂
As for the Tories or Labour indirectly helping each other out – no way! After the Ref. they’ll hate each others guts.
Ian Brotherhood
I have been doing a wee bit of homework on my local Labour MP Douglas Alexander. I will do everything I can to get this piece of shit kicked out of his “safe seat” in Paisley South.
He has a majority of 16,000, so it will take a bit of shifting, but I think if the right SNP candidate is put up against him, then it is possible to win the seat.
I will use the Devo-Max lie as one of the main reasons for his removal.
I think the support will grow for the SNP candidate the closer we get to the election because many thousands voted for YES in this area.
Bye-Bye Dougie Bye-Bye…
Tonymac, that video is a wee bit suspect. The guy seems to have form as a stirrer, and it would be very easy to photocopy a ballot paper and set that up as a hoax.
Let’s just see how it runs, and if these ballots are proved to be the genuine article. I’d put a modest bet on them being photocopies. And on the madder sections of the Yes movement refusing to accept it even if they are.
Fech yir westmonster intervention.
We a’kent it wis comin.
Why did you no’ fecht agin it?
Commit to be positive.
Commit to unity.
Commit to honesty.
Commit to Independence.
Mistakes are a powerful learning tool.
We are all doing our best – even when we are not at our best.
No one, but no one, is perfect.
Criticise the opposition; sympathise with your own side.
Practice forgiveness; it builds community.
Cry together; celebrate together.
Reflect alone.
Mindful of your own strategy, always keep an eye on your opponent.
Independence is not for the weak; be strong.
A week later and I’m still fucking angry at those who voted no. We could be on our way to creating a fair and equal society, full of hope and optimism for the future, taking our place on the international stage, looking forward to at last gaining access to our enormous wealth.
But instead we’re going to war AGAIN, can look forward to more cuts and austerity and god knows what else those bastard politicians at Westminster will throw at us. And how’s that vow working out for ya.
Those 63% of Labour supporters who voted no, take a good look in the mirror and ask yourself if you did the right thing. You should hang your head in shame. It’s like a sick joke. Rant over.
FWIW, IMO (etc etc, all the usual disclaimers) we should go full-tilt ad hominem on the Scottish Branch of the Labour Party, and do it with no mercy or remorse.
I’ve already told my MP, Katy Clark, that I’m going to campaign (and vote) for whoever has the best chance of getting her out. She’s a good MP, and I have a lot of respect for her (as many SSP colleagues do) but she was there, on the Main Street in Saltcoats, handing out Better Together scare-stories with her name on the leaflets, only a fortnight before the poll.
None of them can be allowed to get away with what they did. I’m not an historian, but I’d wager that future academics will have the behaviour of so-called ‘Scottish’ Labour MPs ranked right up there alongside the furtive and squalid shenanigans associated with the so-called Squadrone Volante, prior to the Union in 1707.
It was an utterly brazen and shameful betrayal of the people who made their party possible to begin with – the only ‘fair’ result, after what we’ve all endured, is that Labour’s hegemony is SEEN to end.
We know it’s over ‘bar the shouting’, but it has to be emphatic, ruthless, and final.
Every Labour MP in Scotland is fair game. The ‘good’ ones will see the writing on the wall and jump elsewhere, or declare themselves independents. The rest? Hell mend them.
Roll on May 7th.
@ChrisB
Labour is in a strong position during Westminster elections in Scotland because they always play the same card: ‘Only labour can beat the Tories-Everything else is a wasted vote..’
But this time it could be different.
There is genuine anger with them by a large number of their traditional voters.
Everyone saw how they worked hand in hand with the Tories.
Red Tories..Blue Tories.. little difference.
Wonky Ed has no Scottish connection unlike Blair or Brown.
And their proposals for extra powers are the weakest of all..
SNP would have a strong selling point.
Protecting Scotland and pushing for maximum powers with whoever gets in.
Perhaps they should just call themselves ‘The Scottish Party’ and campaign under a Saltire – the YES flag 🙂
Nobody here seems to have noticed that all the press and media was against us. That is why we never got as much of our message across as we would have liked. The YES newspapers were full of information in simple and easy to read form and nearly contributed to a win against all the odds.
I’m getting a bit pissed off by the attitude of some folk on here. Of course it is always easy to criticise after the event. We all got mounds of promotional materials and some of it was absolutely excellent, particularly the “Your Choice” and the “Your Future” leaflet and booklet.
This is why I had a completely packed Dunoon Burgh Hall meeting tonight setting up the organisation to carry on the fight
Morag,
If it was up to me, I’d put you in charge.
You sound like you know what you’re doing.
I’m reminded of the motto of the S.A.S –
‘The precise use of force’.
Effective in elections too, I would wager.
Just watching Fahrenheit 9/11. A salutary reminder of what we’re up against in the form of power and money ( primarily oil/energy)
Mr Wood (Sir my arse) in whatever guise he takes (Yesindyref2) has already been given a mighty public nod and wink to access to his favoured fracking licences.
@Morag
I have no idea what happened in the last few weeks. Unfortunately, Brown was given loads of coverage in the mainstream media in the last 2 weeks or so. Maybe Salmond and Sturgeon etc ran out of steam, it would not really be too surprising given the effort they put in. Salmond looked exhausted when he gave his resignation speech.
You are right in that there was very little rebuttal about pensions, and the currency issue was handled very badly indeed.
I agree that the positive always beats the negative was utter bullshit. The SNP leadership took this as an article of faith after the 2011 election. Big, big mistake!! We only really started making series inroads when we warned about the threat to the NHS of a No vote. We had a guarantee in writing from the UK government that pensions were guaranteed in an indy Scotland. Why was this not shouted from the rooftops? Where was the warning about the danger of leaving the EU if we voted No? Where was the critique of the British state? Back to earlier, who came up with the positive always beats the negative in political campaigning? It clearly does not. Hello, George Bush senior versus Dukasis (sp) anyone. So many questions…
@ morag
The Yes campaign managed to get 44.7% of those that voted despite being trashed by television,radio,newspaper,bought specialists,big/small businesses,the great and the good of society,Presidents past present and future ,numerous world statesmen,and Bowie.And a dubious Postal Vote.
The only way to get the Yes message to the people was through the grassroots ,sites like Wings with its contributors from all walks of life but with one goal to educate and inform the Scottish people with the `facts the papers leave out`.
binned yes votes
this link seems to work(Last one disappeared)
youtube.com/watch?v=VPhNL2Cc8hQ
Morag
You mean like the SNP membership has coincidentally more than doubled after a YES vote?
A few unionists speculated on that one over the last 2 years.
Yes, the expression going was “Keeping their powder dry”. It’s still dry.
Piemonteis
In the right circumstances, poll showing substantially more support for Independence like perhaps 60%, devo-max not happening, promises broken, scare stories unfolded like “oil’s running out”, and the reverse of scare stories happening, cuts caused by Westminster not Holyrood, I could see a referendum in less than 2 years.
It would only need a short campaign, and all the preparation work done already just dusted off, legislation passed, referendum bill passed, EC got ready, Rev Stu put in charge of YES Scotland. Could be very quick, 6 months tops.
Ian Brotherhood
Ivy, Brilliant, that one is in a league of its own 🙂
Quite a few people I know mainly of the female variety don’t like the 45 as it seems to militaristic for them with connotations to the 1745 uprising.
A quick google comes up with this Celtic meaning of Ivy – its a perfect fit 🙂
The Celtic meaning of the ivy deals with connections and friendships because of its propensity to interweave in growth. Ever furrowing and intertwining, the ivy is an example of the twists and turns our friendships take – but also a testimony to the long-lasting connections and bonds we form with our friends that last over the years.
Another tribute to friendship as well as the test of time is the ivy’s ability to grow in challenging environments. The ivy is incredibly durable and can withstand harsh conditions. This is symbolic of our ability to stick by our friends no matter what.
@Dave McEwan Hill
Nobody here seems to have noticed that all the press and media was against us. That is why we never got as much of our message across as we would have liked.
Sorry Dave but I think your having a laugh, have you read even the posts in this one thread, almost everyone here knows we were robbed of a Yes victory because of the media bias. Seriously do you read Wings? or just read your own posts?
Dave, the Yes literature was far too weak. Look at the way the activists devoured the Wee Blue Book when it came, and the effect it had!
I religiously delivered the last newspaper to all my round. I was a bit shocked when my opposite number to the east, an enormously experienced activist, told me she still had half of hers in her garage as she thought it was so poor it risked putting some people off! When the Wee Blue Book showed up, despite having some misgivings about Stu (she came across some of the black propaganda), she set off again and delivered it everywhere until we both ran out.
(It was on her garden path that I fell carrying the box of WBBs, having driven to Melrose to get more supplies for us both.)
I was trying to explain to a wavering No neighbour that we’d be fracked and we risked getting new nuclear power stations in Scotland with a No vote. She kept saying, but why is nobody telling us these things. Me standing in her house wasn’t enough. She at least needed it on a leaflet.
tried to post this earlier but it doesn’t seem to have gone through. This article seems to see no hope for Devo max or home Rule for Scotland
http://opinion.publicfinance.co.uk/2014/09/devo-max-what-it-is-and-why-it-wont-happen/?
Morag says:
26 September, 2014 at 10:50 pm
Tonymac, that video is a wee bit suspect. The guy seems to have form as a stirrer, and it would be very easy to photocopy a ballot paper and set that up as a hoax.
————–
found on twitter
“PLEASE ASK HIM TO CONTACT @newsundayherald ..”
Agree with your point
repost link sorry..
And of course I realise it was the BBC (mainly) that killed us. That’s what I referred to as napalming, in the last couple of weeks.
For months I was declaring that I felt like a victim of domestic abuse, the way the BBC was constantly battering my dreams. In the last couple of weeks I felt as if I was on the wrong end of a seal-clubbing exercise.
That doesn’t mean Yes Scotland played a blinder though. They didn’t.
Futher back on Wings I made a few posts where I expressed doubts about the strategy. I got pelters for most of them and I shut up because I hoped to be proved wrong. It was only suspicion at that stage anyway. I wasn’t proved wrong though.
@A.N.Surgent says:26 September, 2014 at 3:49 pm:
“What we absolutely need is a hard hitting news programme, investigative journalism the truth about what is going on in the world we live in, not inane, coma-inducing pap.”
Inded, A.N. Surgent, “What WE need is indeed a hard-hitting news programme”, but that is NOT what the people who voted NO in the referendum need. However, to attract an audiend you need to do several things. One is to have something to bring first time viewers back again and, as it is a new venture, it needs to be good but cheap to either produce or to buy in.
We do have several top class musical artists and groups who are independence supporters. What’s more they have to not just bring in one age group so there are the Scottish Fiddle orchestra and such like. Another great puller of returning audiences is a game show. Another idea is buy in something like re-running Take The High Road. A weekly film. A Scottish TOTPS, (Top of the pops Scottish). Not to mention a phone in.
Have a look at a programme guide and you will see entire channels with old movies and road rage stuff but those are for a niche type audience and not what is needed
If you want to see how it has already been done review how BBC ALBA got itself off the ground and look at it now? Sports on Saturdays too. Then you have your dedicated political programmes and of course Scottish, European and World News. When you cannot afford to produce a show or buy one in then you have a Scottish Shopping channel when you are not on air yourself. This spreads the costs between you and the shopping channel.
You know, Jack and James seem to have looked into this fairly carefully. I don’t know the detail of what they’re planning, and I don’t imagine they’re going to tell any of us at this stage, but I doubt if they need people on Wings making format suggestions. They’ll have thought all that stuff out, and it’ll mainly be a question of what can be made to work.
Midgehunter
I think the 2016 strategy will be most difficult to negotiate. It’s a long way away, and this is fantasy politics, but just imagine the SNP were only stand in the constituencies, promoting a second vote Green (or SSP, or both) strategy. If the 2011 vote shares were replicated and we imagine all SNP 2nd votes transferred to the Greens, the seats according to ScotlandVotes would be as follows:
SNP 53 (-16)
Green 45 (+43)
Labour 21 (-16)
Tory 8 ( -7)
Lib Dem 2 ( -3)
Margo ( -1)
In other words:
Independentistas 98 (+26)
Unionists 31 (-26)
This is very basic and won’t happen though.
Personally, I’d love to see the SNP choose not to stand list candidates and instead put their current list members up for election next year. The likes of Humza Yousaf vs. Anas Sarwar for Glasgow Central. And that would be a fair incentive for getting out and campaigning. Win or bust.
Again though, this is purely academic because it won’t happen.
Morag
Two issues that YES Scotland went very quite on were, Oil down the West Coast of Scotland and BBC Bias.
If they had pushed these two issues harder it would have spread confidence amongst the YES campaign and could possibly have increased it’s vote.
Is Blair Jenkins still in charge?
Even now, we are still in the dark about a lot of things.
I’ve been taking a break for a while, but thought I’d drop in to say hello to everyone. Hello, everyone!
As far as I’m concerned, there were two major factors which led to the 55%:
1. Labour, Lib Dem and Conservatives consistently and persistently lied, be it about the “dangers” of independence, or the “guaranteed” powers coming Scotland’s way
2. The mainstream media were all too happy to perpetuate those lies and complicit in suppressing the truth which revealed the deception
Better Together targeted the pensioners. Pensioners are the last vestige of a generation which actually respected the media: they remember coming around the radio and TV, listening to what the Prime Minister had to say. They still trust the UK government. They still trust the BBC. Despite all that’s happened, the paradigm shift required to move from accepting & trusting the government & media, to skeptical, is simply too great for them. To acknowledge the possibility that the government & media might be lying to them is monumentally challenging.
Right now, I see only two targets for 2015 – the BBC, and Labour. They were the most complicit, they did the most damage, they are the ones that must be dealt with. We’ve sold the positive case for independence, but the 55% simply weren’t willing to listen. Will they be willing to hear us out now that one week later fracking licensing has been issued, the Scottish block grant is being cut, Labour plans to freeze child benefit and cut winter fuel allowance, and the UK’s invading Iraq for the third time?
Labour and the media. Destroy them, and we take Scotland back – before it’s too late.
I have been having very dark thoughts about some of that for quite some time. A few people chewed me out when I kind of mentioned them a year or more ago, and I hoped I was wrong. Stu thinks I’m wrong and I respect his judgement.
Hell, I think I’m wrong. It’s just that sometimes I kind of wonder. I like my conspiracy theories debunked, after all.
The plain fact is that the referendum campaign started at 25-28% and was an obvious fail, so everyone and their dog (sorry Muttley) thought it was fair game to come out against Indy with all their scares and tosh and like NATO Rasmussen and the other ex and former blah blahs scaring us back under our cowering slimy stones.
Well it ended up at 45%, and there was that one wonderful poll that put us ahead. Next time the polls are likely to have YES in the lead from the start otherwise there’s probably little point in having a Ref, and they’ll all be a lot less likely to risk antagonising the hell out of us then. Even Westminster will be thinking of a future ally rather than a regional revolt.
Next time big business and ex-presidents and retiring EUcrats alike will be able to just go feck themselves.
Talking to caz-m there. Taranaich talks a lot of sense as usual of course.
I would like to see people try to help the SSP position themselves as an alternative to Labour. Of course, they are, but I fear Labour voters are just too fat-headed — plus Labour are on the telly all the time.
Morag, are you in the Kelso/Jedburgh SNP branch? Will I see you at the meeting on the 6th of October? By the way, the Kelso food bank are apparently very short of all supplies; I’m going to a meeting about it on Wednesday 8th of October, if you or anyone else you know is interested. Kelso North Parish Church, the Pillar Room, 7pm.
@ John King
Thank you: that is beautiful and I have not heard of them before 🙂
I think one of the reasons the Yes Campaign stuff was so ‘ neutral’ was because , despite being optimistic, the SNP Govt ( initially the big driving force before the Yes movement over took it) never lost sight it was still representing all of Scotland.
It never seemed to dawn on the Unionist side and the BBC , when they threatened and bullied ( and let’s face it, the last two weeks in the run up , were an absolute disgrace) they were offending as it turns out 45% of the electorate. Let’s face facts they did not care. They do not care .
The politicians will come and go but the BBC have really done themselves some damage. After their coverage of the Referendum, I now refuse to watch the BBC , have cancelled my license and will personally tell everyone and anyone I meet if they skewed the facts about the ref, why would I believe them about Syria etc.
Just as a wee aside,is there any reason why we can’t have a Secretary of State elected to represent us from Holyrood ?
Natasha, no. I’m Tweeddale.
@ YesIndyref2
We need to have the Scots informed, all fired up and burning for indy before we get to a Ref.
Look at the Catalans, they WANT indy.
@crisiscult says: 26 September, 2014 at 4:26 pm:
“Just my musings but from knowledge of East Ren, there are a lot of middle class folk who would have or possibly still do vote Tory/Lib Dem (the old Eastwood constituency used to return Tories). Those voters will presumably never vote SNP or anything further left.”
May I remind you that the Constituency Borders Commission are making changes and cutting the numbers of Scottish MPs this comming GE. I read an article some time ago that stated several, mainly Labour, big names are going to struggle to get re-elecxted.
I pay my TV licence annually. It’s not due to run out till next momth. I’m not going to renew it, but right at the moment I’m still legal to watch what I like.
I haven’t had the TV on in more than three weeks, apart from a couple of times the Plaid guys staying with me wanted to watch something.
Okay, maybe we’ll still meet up one day. Hope so! After all, the Borders is a small place. 🙂
@David McEwan Hill – I’ll answer you once and once only, why do you think we are all talking about getting a new media if we weren’t aware of the entire MSM, except the Sun Herald, and BBC against us.
SO I assume you have not read any of the posts but jumped straight in with your own comment
The proposed changes to the constituency boundaries have not come into force. The LibDems voted against them in revenge for Cameron not letting them rein in the House of Lords.
@Morag. If this worked I should have an avatar of Thistle and Ivy – a traditional scottish combination.
About your “concerns” if they are the same as mine, I also wondered.
BTW there is some dick on twitter claiming to be part of the 45 trying to stir it up that the Rev is MI5.
This is because they know the value of this site – and also why we have so many trolls come out of the woodwork.
All of us wingers need to be very alert.
I also think our celebrity YES supporters could have done a lot more.
Where did Annie Lennox go to. We never heard from her all the way through the campaign. She and other could have made a kind of Live Aid style song as a rallying anthem for us. And the Proclaimers could have been a lot more vocal, along with Deacon Blue.
I hope we have ALL learned from the first Campaign and we will be more battle-hardened for Referendum mark II.
It is not for me to speak for David McEwan Hill, but I read his post rather differently.
To me his point was that the Yes campaign was very good indeed, and it is not reasonable to blame the failure on that campaign, because the problem is not there. If I am right in my interpretation then I agree with David Mcewan Hill. Sure, we did not do everything right; and we should learn lessons: but some of the posts here seem to go beyond that, and I do find that uncomfortable.
About this believing the TV malarkey. We seem to be condiitoned to do that, these days.
Look at the people who use YouTube to make points you’d think would be better made just by writing it down. Look even at the way people make posters of quotes to illustrate the person saying them.
Look at the hoax videos purporting to show vote-rigging. The two that apparently showed tellers working showed no wrongdoing at all. You couldn’t see what was written on the ballots in question, or indeed in the case of the young lad whether it was even a ballot paper he’d written on. But the voice-over said, this woman is putting Yes ballots in the No pile and this lad is filling in a blank ballot for No, and people promptly started declaring all over twitter that that was what the clips actually showed.
I think this says something fairly fundamental about how TV gets its message across. It’s something we have to duplicate.
@ Piemonteis
I hadn’t got round to the 2016 election but I did have something similar in mind to what you wrote.
It doesn’t mean SNP in all direct votes and only SSP/Greens on list places. We’d still need SNPs on some lists because they’d be quite simply the stronger candidate.
Each constituency has to be individually targeted.
I’ve got a stalker who even has some sort of wiki page declaring that I’m MI5. All because what I discovered about the Lockerbie investigation doesn’t fit with the conspiracy theory he has been peddling for over 20 years. It’s not that he’s wrong, it’s that I’m a government agent tasked with covering up the fact that he’s right!
You’re not ANYBODY these days until someone has accused you of being MI5. I even had emails to my work address threatening to report me to my employer for breaking my contract by moonlighting for the security services.
The bit of the Yes campaign which was very good indeed was the grass-roots. And to be fair to Yes, they said right at the start that their strategy was to circumvent the inevitable media bias by having the grass-roots come up from under them.
But you can’t let the grass run wild. You have to support it and direct it where it’s most needed, and fill in the bits it can’t reach. Yes Scotland just sat back and went through the motions.
@Taranaich –
‘Right now, I see only two targets for 2015 – the BBC, and Labour. They were the most complicit, they did the most damage, they are the ones that must be dealt with.’
Amen!
Talk about ‘succinct’?
The man is back…
Could I just say a bit about the Yes campaign that hasn’t been spoken about or discussed very much on these forums and it needs saying.
Because I feel it wasn’t explained very clearly to many No-leaning and D/K’s and cost a lot of Yes votes.
While the aims of trying to build a ‘social justice’ platform from which we would challenge and reverse the appalling child poverty projections for the next weeks,months and years must surely be a worthy goal,No voters and D/K’s confused the issue as a target for funding of benefit dependents.
It felt for some that admirable objectives of finding insights and solutions for the most deprived and rundown areas,of which there are many all over the country-and they need all the help they can get- the message they percieved was in fact an endorsement that it was ok to be benefit dependent for life.
Let me make it clear that they were presumably talking about a percentage of people who could but choose not to ever work,or even consider such an endeavour.This does exist for all kinds of reasons but its there.
But a certain feeling for some was that they would be footing that bill,and they chose not to with a No vote.
With issues of long term unemployment-alcohol and drugs related problems- which have produced a benefit dependency culture as the only option for people to exist,there are issues that need addressed and supported.
It was said to me by a lot of the No voting employed middle class ‘haves'(as opposed to ‘have nots’)electorate,especially the sort of ‘Thatcher’s children’variety, that they believed the connection with social justice was a sort of endorsement of allowing the’benefit culture’-of which it has to be acknowledged as existing-would be allowed free rein to perpetuate-all paid for by their taxes and savings.
These are not my personal feeling,but it was there in the minds of some voters.
@ caz-m
It was hard enough to get the truth about the main topics out, like currency,pensions,NHS,Europe,Trident,border control,every time we batted one away they pitched up another scare story.
That double talker Ian Wood corrupted anything to do with oil and Media bias what medium is going to voice that.
Personally I have always thought if it was not for the Black gold we would have been Independent 30 years ago.
Ian B and Morag
Really like the idea of an emblem/code – the problem with ivy is that it is a parasite – so perhaps a problem, even although it can kill its host!
I agree that we need a new umbrella term that must include the word Scotland and a verb to give momentum – something like Scotland Arise or Scotland Advance. Those far more creative should be able to produce something that does not lay itself open to ridicule eg our old favourites UKOK and Bitter Together.
Midgehunter
The good thing is that ironically all the media are now on the side of the growing IVY vines, in that all they are interested in now is not Scotland, but the General Election and the 3 parties.
So, all those 55% that have any memories at all will see increasing scare stories either debunked, or brought to fruition by the Westminster parties, not Holyrood. They can become IWVY – I Will Vote Yes.
Perhaps in some ways we should support the BBC and others – just when it suits us “it must be true, the BBC said it”.
@Morag,
The history of Yes HQ is a sorry one. They were always a bit hamstrung by the SNP sitting on top of them, but even so, the website, the IT, the newspapers, the infighting…:((
In the end, they more or less got it right though, and reduced themselves to providing material for the grassroots campaign they had helped to create – almost despite themselves.
The ‘we’ve gone bonkers’ moment for me was when S-A Somerville, director of communities for Yes, went off to fight a by-election in Dunfermline which the SNP had no hope of winning. A by-election! With independence up for grabs? We should just have let that go and concentrated on the only thing that mattered. It distracted a load of activists and gained nothing.
I hold no candle for top-down control, but the lack of leadership from Yes HQ was shocking. It’s remarkable that Yes groups, acting more or less on their own, achieved 45%
I.V.Y. is a fine logo, as long as nobody puts P.O.I.S.O.N. in front of it.
After all, we have to look at it from the enemy’s mindset.
It’s back to the drawing board lads and lassies. Keep thinking though, we need a new logo, fast.
@Fiona
Very good 🙂
IVY – I Voted YES
IVY – I’m Voting YES
It’s inclusive, for next time. I like it.
I don’t think many people regard ivy as a parasite. It’s pretty and it grows well even where there’s little light.
I could see both actual ivy-themed material, and blue-and white motives exactly like the Yes logos but reading Ivy instead.
OK maybe I’ll go off the idea by morning but liking it now.
Kininvie, I see what you mean. Hell, I fought a by-election in the middle of it all, a year ago, because somebody had to although we had no chance of winning. But at least it didn’t take anything significant from the Yes campaign. The other possible candidate was chair of Yes Borders and that would have been bloody daft.
@kininvie –
‘It’s remarkable that Yes groups, acting more or less on their own, achieved 45%’
Hmm…anyone dare mention ‘anarchy’?
I think we’d have got there if the BBC hadn’t become the absolute mouthpiece of No’s “shock and awe” offensive in the last two weeks. But Yes Scotland could have made it a lot more difficult for them to do that.
@alistair says: 26 September, 2014 at 7:57 pm:
“Jeezo, who or what gives you the right to speak in such a patronising manner to anyone on this blog.
It’s called free speech, Alistair, that’s the same right that allows me to tell you to gae awa an bile yer heid.
caz-m reply A possible campaign name going forward.
SCOTLAND ANEW
And a poem for you
Bruised Heids
Divide and conquer, it’s the English way
Then you are made to pay and pay
Pretty soon they’ll have the clothes off your backs
Then will return for your shoes and your dacks
One thing is clear for it couldn’t be clearer
Your in the hands of an expert shearer
The Empires wealth from the many for the few
At this the English have earned their due
If Scotland can’t learn fro historic example
Then on their heids they deserve a good trample.
James Dow
Another of my predictions
Not waving, drowning
England the drowning man of Europe, clutching at oil slicks, a conjoined Scotland to suffer the same fate.
England’s death notice. Death by drowning
Scotland’s death notice. Death by suicide
I worked for Rupert Murdoch as a manager in three of his plants in Australia for twenty years, and then moved into cross media marketing working on digital platforms utilising all the digital media, supported by variable data text and image printed material. The digital sites were URL based. I managed successful campaigns for .Political parties, Universities, Insurance companies, superannuation fund’s and commercial entities.
Compared to Scotland I would say Australia is very advanced in digital and print support marketing. I believe Scotland does not have a major badged advertising agency.
In my opinion the yes campaign was very negligent in not sourcing every possible up to date technology and proven strategy. I could break it all down but it is of no consequence now, from a design, marketing, and strategy point of view I considered it unprofessional, disjointed, and lacking focus where it was required most.
Before the first shot was fired it was obvious the enemy would dominate all media after all what does the B stand for in BBC {read English} even if a pirate station had to be set up so be it.
Scotland is an easy country for marketing, small land mass, small concentrated population equals reduced costs.
Every washed available data base in Scotland should be accumulated into a master data base file and updated for future independence use. Digital advertising and marketing will be even more powerful by then, and those that use it least today will probably have expired.
Scotland belongs to the young, it is their domain to inherit and manage. And from what I have seen of Scotland’s young folk they deserve their opportunity,
and I an sure they would be more impressive than the current custodians.
Poison ivy – common in the US but not here, though common ivy is mildly allergenic. IVY league – not perhaps a good connotation but again US. Parasitic – only really on something rotten or dying like an old unfit for purpose Westminster parliament!
Definitely appealing to the 65+ generation I’d have thought.
Just as a wee aside to my previous comment re Ian Wood. Current CEO of Wood group is Bob Keillor who in 2002 was part of Halliburton (mentioned more than once re oil dealings re iraq/saudi arabia/George Bush)
It’s a small world.
I know i’m chatting to masel but that’s cool 🙂
I think we could be the IVY league, you know….
Blue Ivy – first try (if it works)
@galamcennalath says: 26 September, 2014 at 8:20 pm:
“If the SNP membership keeps growing, it may actually pass the UK conservatives figure of around 170000. Then Labour on 190000.”
The Labour membership figures are laughable. They count their Social Club Members as party members.
@Morag
Interesting, I think I should consider setting up a fortnightly or monthly Wings Ivy League meeting in Dundee. Chance for a blether, abit of banter and discussion. Who knows where it might take you.
Ban fracking petition gets 26511 signatures in 3 days
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/ban-fracking-in-the-central-belt-of-scotland?source=facebook-share-button&time=1411562932
One way to ruin one of Scotland’s most valuable resources is to poison it.
@ian
I’m more than happy to mention anarchy.
I would be even happier to mention it if we had won!
On the bright side, the Crown Office are getting called in on Wee Ruth Davidson 🙂 Hope they throw the book at her.
Also, on Hope not Hate site this morning (antifa) David Coburn, that UKIP arse, was overheard on a train calling Ruth Davidson a “fat lesbian” Coburn is the UKIP’s spokesperson on all matters gay, stating he does not believe in gay marriage.
Can everyone please refer to The British Labour Party in Scotland as I think that would be fabulous marketing – BLab for short.
Graeme
Just saying we can’t say much about it until it’s confirmed news about Wood and fracking. Wood’s reversal on his 25 million barrel 2012 estimate was a strange one, but not I think, that damaging in itself. Another straw all the same.
Shucks!
It’s just as well I missed out on the conspiracy threads. Truth of the matter is, I think everyone’s right, to an extent. I was present at the count, and I am absolutely positive some amount of skullduggery went on – but since Inverclyde only had 86 votes in it, it’s quite obviously the only region where that sort of thing could swing the vote, without resorting to electoral fraud on a colossal scale (that’s on the order of hundreds of thousands).
But in any case, the only conspiracy we need to concentrate on is the conspiracy by government, business leaders and media titans to lie to the people of Scotland. Can we not appeal to the Edinburgh agreement on this?
It’s definitely arguable whether the referendum could be said to be “fair” or not. The electoral commission as a whole needs a good looking-at for several things.
Has anyone made a count of the number of Yes Scotland broadcasts in comparison to No Thanks? It might be confirmation bias, but I’ve heard that you couldn’t get Gordon Brown off the telly in the last few days with the broadcasts, while there were few – if any – for Yes.
This is a BIG one. As we all know, the BBC have been appalling throughout all this, but between membership of CBI and the clear No-bias, I am certain that the UK government and the BBC have violated this detail beyond all reasonable doubt. We have the UWS study backing us up on this, as well as the training video and other telling events. I definitely think we need a formal inquiry as to the BBC’s role in the referendum.
Once again, I think the UK government has quite clearly violated the agreement with their “more powers” thing. Either they were outright lying to the public, or they were offering something different. Plausible deniability (“we’re just promising what we promised before the 28-day purdah, honest!”). And the FM was quite correct to point out the BBC/RBS/Treasury scandal, too.
How can the UK government possibly defend its “commitment” to “work together constructively” when it has done nothing but undermine, lie, distort and misrepresent everything?
They had their fingers crossed behind their backs.
Or maybe that design (quickly done) – see the gravatar
@Robert Peffers 12.24 RE freedom Of Speech
AND the support of a lot of us
GO ROBERT
@Taranaich (12.48) –
That is a proper ‘Post’, and will, hopefully, appear as such on WOS (unless someone nabs it…)
yesindyref2
I agree about the effects of wood,s comments. Think I was just wanting to make a more general comment about the forces ranged against us.
Think we,re all aware of who and what we,re up against though.
Graeme
Aye, they threw the kitchen sink at us. I was totally hacked off with Salmond, I was about to use that in the Herald and then he used it in a speech. Great minds 🙂
It’ll be more difficult the next time, but pre-emptive action would be needed: “Next they’ll be saying there’s less oil in the North Sea, it must have evaporated – more scare stories” kind of thing. Proactive, not reactive.
There was far too much last minute reaction – or, worse, none. Pensions was the worse one though, I checked the ONS graphs and figures for that, dependent population versus working age popualtion, and it was very easily defended “faster ageing population than the rest of the UK”, my left foot.
For Wealth
For Scotland
Appeals to the need/want/greed element.
Alex Clark
I was in Dundee the 18th, visiting son. Glad I was, at least I was in a 57% YES place, unlike home where it would have been a 75% NO 🙁
Son and I might come, once I get my bus pass 🙂 Mennies perhaps …
No need for IVY when you can see all the letters in Y
I also thought the lack of veracity in the counter arguments from our side re some of these issues was a factor. Despite the lack of compliant media there were opportunities missed by some of our big hitters.
Anyway lessons learned for the fight ahead.
In Glasgow and Dundee can the registers from the polling places be checked to see if the amount of names scored off ties up with the polling cards sent to the counting station, this could help with peoples unease about the strangely low turnout.
And are the registers available for public view , basically to see if your name was scored off?
I haven’t had time to read all of the comments, so I offer my sincere apologies if I’m repeating anything that has went before.
On the subject of Yes, I think this name should be preserved, certainly for the foreseeable future, and especially if there is going to be an umbrella organisation to fight the General Election. Yes is a known entity now, the branding is already there, and some of the literature will still be relevant for the GE (if there’s any left!), thereby providing some reduction in literature costs for the forthcoming election.
So if there is any chance that some of the shops can be kept open, or re-leased for a few more months, it will be invaluable for the GE campaign. Fill them with literature from all of the Yes organisations, and try and maintain the community-based initiative that many of the shops became.
Oh, and a working network of remaining/new shops should be a priority – addresses, telephone numbers and email addresses for a start.
Taranaich
The Celtic League have a copy of a letter sent to the general secretary United Nations High commissioner for Human Rights. In it they highlight not dissimilar points to you.
They highlight their concerns about ‘ manipulation and interference of UK state parties’.
UK were in breach of International Covenant on civil and political rights (iccpr)
1/ solicited foreign Govts/ bodies -NATO and EU
2/ solicited business such as supermarkets / banks
3/UK outlined additional powers ( the vow) after polling had started.
If you google The Celtic League it’s there under campaigns.
We await the response as to dismiss this , would diminish the role or reason for having a Celtic League surely?
Honestly, it’s about as good an answer as I expect from them after the RBS leak. “The code of the schoolyard is binding, it would be shocking to even contemplate breaking it!”
I’m actually working on a post about my experiences on polling day, which will include some really wonderful (and a few absolutely appalling) anecdotes from the voting station & the count. It’s the proudest and darkest day of my life, and I really need to write down what happened.
According to the Lord Ashcroft poll, the three biggest reasons people were voting No were the pound, pensions, and the NHS – three things that were CAST IRON GUARANTEES in the event of a Yes vote, as said by the UK government themselves. This just proves to me the impact of the media, because nobody perpetuated the lie that we couldn’t use the pound more than the BBC and newspapers (nobody save Alistair Darling, of course).
From my own experience in the Yes Inverclyde shop, we have had a great deal of success reassuring pensioners who come in worried about their pensions in a very simple manner: we keep a copy of the DWP letter in the shop and show it to them. I put together a few binders with relevant material for every argument I could think of, but it usually boiled down to just pensions, pound, EU and a few other things like passports or VAT. If the DWP letter isn’t enough, we have a copy of the Scottish Affairs Select Committee where Ian Davidson confirms it, as well as several newspaper articles that cite it. Likewise, I had copies of several posts from Wings about pensions regarding the “aging population” fallacy.
As I said before, I’m not going to tear into Yes HQ, but I will say that next time, we’re not going to
I agree. I still have all my Yes paraphernalia. The 45 is a nice club for Yes voters to join, the 45+ a nice attempt at conclusion, but really, what has changed about our goal and our cause? Nothing – we still say Yes to an independent Scotland, so I say Yes it shall remain. I have no problems with all the other wee movements – the 45, Bruce’s spiders, the butterfly rebellion, one Scotland, etc – but in the end, we’re all still Yes, aren’t we?
I doubted I was the only one. Great to hear the Celtic League have taken action.
@Robert pefffers. Good to read your last your comment. Just shows your class…If your “yes we’re still here” campaign makes it as national campaign for next May you can rely on my vote.
Apologies, off topic AND LONG, sorry, sorry, but I need to vent.
Had an interesting day watching golf with 4 pals I hadn’t caught up with for a long time. My only no voting (he didn’t vote, isn’t registered) pal was there.
All 3 of us very vocal and talking of a missed opportunity, typical Scotland, consumerism rules the roast with most, rich care about money, etc.
Golf talk – the would be no voter “I really like that European jersey” (it was a blue jumper with a Scottish flag on it).
Yes pal “I prefered yesterdays” (the dark blue plain one)
I agreed.
30 mins later “I thought you two Yes voters would love that top” from No man (the Saltire one)
I just said “Nah, Scotland’s no for me the noo”
The other 2 Yessers agreed.
Also, talking about football. I said I was happy to see England beat Switzerland as I quite like their coach. Of course, the No man said the usual “Really? I hope England lose every game”
That’s exactly who we are dealing with. 90 minute patriots, fearties, and ‘proud’ Scots.
Of course it’s petty and we are still hurting, but watching the golf I felt the cringe for the first time and the complete opposite cringe to what the Nos felt (before last Thursday).
I at the moment can’t bare saying or hearing all this ‘proud’ Scot, kilts, Colin Monty saying “The reason the atomsphere is subdued becuase we respect golf” and I’m thinking no it’s not, it’s because most of us are dour buggers who only sing when they are drunk.
A friend of mine was on a bus recently he still has his Yes badge on – An OAP kept turning to look at him the stare, not in an evil way, just kept looking back at him, but not in a “I ken who he is” way she was giving him the look to show she disaproved of his badge.
That is Scotland.
Too cowardly to say anything, just be silent, give an unaproving look before moving on.
I will get over this. I’m heading back to Scandoland for a wee while for work and both looking forward and not to it, still trying to figure out what I say when they ask where I am from – I’ve been mistaken in the past for everything in Europe from Belgian to Albanian – so maybe I can try for Catalonia, or good auld Eireann. Or my true identity, North Brit.
I will get over this, and sorry for taking out on here in a post that may will not read, but at least its out there.
I joined the SNP, I’ll continue the fight, but much like Ray McRobbie’s blog – I needed to get that out.
I passed the old town council house, the Saltire waving ‘proudly’ (I doubt I will ever see that word again and not think of Hastings, Darling, Carmicheal, and whoever else from the No side).
And it’s starting to annoy me, it is my flag, it’s the 45% flag, I don’t care wht the 55% say it most certainly no theirs, but I can’t help but look at it and see i waving and hearing all this absolute bullshite about the Scots being different and so on.
We aren’t at all. We are just a small part of Britain.
We will go again and I will too, and I’ll be more positive in the long-term, but christ, that was good to get off my chest.
Anyhoos, we get back on it and aim for Home Rool the noo 🙂
Yonks ago, someone I know was visiting from the USA and was invited to visit Yes HQ.
Her description of the campaign was that it had no chance; there was no discernable game plan.
Maybe their game plan was to have no game plan, I thought to myself , comforted.
They seemed locked into the offices behind their entrance and only passed into the bland public area to get in or out. Salmond would have sat his desk in the entrance.
We, the people got the 45% vote, Yes the HQ got the money.
Next time, boys and girls, no more MR Nice Guy.
We retaliate first.
I’m in California on holiday and was invited to play golf the other day. My host was an Englishman who has been over here for decades. He’s a nice guy and was the perfect host. One of the other players was American and on the 4th tee he suddenly said, “Hey, I’m sure glad you guys voted against independence, I was worried about my investments.”
I gave him a long cool look and said, “I voted Yes, and so did my son.”
He shut up after that.
Has anybody got a link to this week’s Question Time? I can’t get into IPlayer as I’m abroad.
Andrew Morton, don’t know if this is the correct way , but download Zenmate on Googlechrome – all your i player worries will be away 🙂
Well whod’ve thunk it.
Fracking licences fro sale in Central Scotland, under all of Edinburgh, Central Scotland and Fife. 80% of Scotland live above where they will be drilling.
http://lauracameronlewis.wordpress.com/2014/09/26/sold-from-under-our-feet/
I hope Morningside, Kelvinside and East Renfrewshire disappear down sink holes.
Fracking licences under Morningside, Kelvinside, East Renfrewshire, Ayr
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=veUFAnwo17o
You shall reap, reap, reap, just what you sow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veUFAnwo17o
Better
Salmond was quick to point out that we dont need a referendum to win independence, a majority at the GE, but he is only reminding people that this power is still retained by scotland. In reality, it would be unwise to do this so soon after the referendum. No, it will not be on the manifesto for the GE15. Independence is a long term aim, but voting SNP has never meant independence at any recent election, does voting SNP at council elections bring about independence? The lack of the demand of independence may also attract voters.
FFA and EVEL will be the campaign platform, with the reneged VOW our ammunition. The only vehicule for this is the SNP and 6 months out from the GE and after over 80 years of existence, the largest and most successful party in scotland will not change their name or unite with the greens and ssp, parties which dont even stand candidates at the GE.
The Yes Campaign was not “non Political” it was A political and acted as a booster club for independence. Blair Jenkins lost control of the Yes campaign years ago, it was like trying to herd cats. Good. That is the indication of a true grass roots organisation, Remember, the greens and the SSP were the only other established and registered political parties in the mix, It was RIC, LFI and groups like National collective which were the most successful parts of the YES campaign, Why try and rebrand them? why take pot shots at the YES scotland team who never had power over such organisations? This was the strength of the campaign, not a weakness. BTW, the returns for southern fife showed that thanks to RIC and LFI, We actually won in gordon browns own heart lands and that the total for fife would have been a lot worse for us except for their efforts. So let the booster clubs call themselves whatever they like, indeed, all of the groups have seen increasing memberships since the referendum, including my local YES group, not just the established political parties.
Mcwhirter said that we had been responsable for motivating not only the YES voters but also the NO voters. I think he may be right and that facebook may be the biggest culprit, DISCUSS.
But the BBC were also responsable for getting the Nos to turn out. They wont be here in 6 months they will be too busy hosting the Nigel farage show (some of the tories voters in scotland will break for UKIP, good, they are wasted votes) and the biggest story will be the imminent demise of the LibDems, (they broke for the SNP in 2011) and the labour party is at its weakest in scotland that it has ever been.
two ss’es in discuss
9/10
🙂
Schroedinger
why only 9/10?
No body is perfect, even me.
‘The Betrayers’ – BBC Scotland Drama Series grousebeater-wordpress
It was YES 60% until the ‘VOW’.
It wasn’t the BBC,the YES campaign, Ian Wood,the over 55% or the under or anything else.
It was the illegal ‘VOW’.
25% of NO voters changed their vote – to NO. Blame tbe UNIONIST parties. Vote them out. Scotland can still get Independence from another route.
Cameron would have had to resign, instead of bombing Iraq, again
Faltdubh,
We all deal with this as best we can.Im very comfortable in my mind and in my attitude to No voting Scots. I am not British.I accept the British won the referendum and continue to run Scotland from London,England.For the time being.I have to get along with them and will continue friendships with them.But I am not them. That maybe sounds hard line,but I’m not going to lie to myself and others just to make them feel a bit more comfortable with me.
For computer buffs, especially of the FSF, ‘YES’ could mean ‘Yes to an Enlightened Scotland’ or something like this, with a self-reference.
@BtP:
Fracking licences in Scotland. Oh dear. Scotland can say goodbye to its clean water tables. Nice future amber-colored tap water, but not whisky perfumed… Greed knows no limit.
Independence campaign gets another boost in 6 months. Stop moaning. Start campaigning now. Vote the Unionist Parties out.
There are several appeals ongoing from people wanting to set up alternatives to BBC Scotland. Although the talk is mostly of On-line Broadcasting some are even suggesting a Free-View Channel.
Anyone got any guidance on which appeal or individuals stand the greatest chance of success?
Scotland gets another boost to Independence in May – GE. Stop moaning and start campaigning.
Vote out the Unionist parties. They are totally outnumbered. Take the mandate.
Take Tommy Sheridan’s advice. Invincible.
https://twitter.com/peteriwanoff/status/515606490661797890/photo/1
It was Trougher Brown.
Vote him out.
@Ken500
Completely agree with you. We were winning until the Vow. That is what swung it.
And, that get’s lost in all the other related discussions.
If the MSM had been even more even handed, we would have been winning by more. On the other hand if BT hadn’t been incompetent, we might not have been winning.
We were winning and they panicked, broke purdah rules and offered DevMax/Home Rule.
Now, they either deliver or else ….
Your fight is in your hands. The vote. Get organised.
Hi everyone , restarting Yes stall in Kilmarnock today, round 2 starts here !
Do you think the Wood group is ready to frack under Aberdeen ?
And how about the Balmoral estate – rich pickings there I’ll wager and you don’t even have to get the householders permission.
Water table will be buggered ( apologies Panda) but hey fuckit, it’s only Scotland.
But hing on a mo! Does England no need our lovely pure watter?
If they bugger the watter whit’ll they dae ? De salination and nuclear round the south coast?
I don’t care what the logo name is, but we are drifting here. We need leadership from the “top”.
Do we continue with YES or is there another logo/name in the pipeline.
As I have said, I still have a lot of YES posters remaining and have them on windows in the house and still have stickers on the car but we need to know if we are going to continue with YES.
We don’t want to lose the initiative here.
Someone at the top has to speak out or we risk losing the support of the youth. We are all willing to put on our badges, put up posters or fly the flags, the problem is, which name should be on them.
Schrodingers Cat says
“We actually won in gordon browns own heart lands ”
Got any info on that?
It would be very heartening to see Lochgelly, Cowdenbeath and Cardenden had returned a yes vote,
My own feeling at the polling station was not so good, I felt the general reaction from people coming out of the polling station (generally) in Lochgelly was to avoid our gaze.
Is there not quite a bit of Scotland sits on Granite? Can’t see very much except Radon coming out of that. Perhaps the area between Edinburgh and Glasgow or even the Edinburgh dormitory towns in Fife and to the east and south of Edinburgh. Perhaps even Ayrshire and down toward Dumfries. Basically where there was/is Coal.