The topics of the day
Posted on
September 26, 2014 by
Rev. Stuart Campbell
Can be discussed below. (We don’t know what they are, we’re on holiday.)
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A tall tale
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Video
Probably a robbery
Transphobia
Its very odd that the No campaign felt it had to make its Devo Max/Home Rule vow After they say they sampled the postal vote.
The No campaign was in a panic after sampling the postal vote.
Does that tally with claims that the PV’s sampling told them they were well ahead.
I smell shite.
Better Together played every dirty trick in the book and in the end fear and greed won the day.
On 19th September I felt and still feel that the outcome should be declared null and void due to purdah being breached and more powers being offered at a time when many postal voters had
already voted and returned their ballot papers to the Electoral Registrar.
The ballot papers asked: “Should Scotland be an independent country? Yes. No.” At no point did they ask: “Would you vote to stay in the UK if more powers were delivered to Scotland?”
This is a technicality although I doubt anything will be done about it. However, over 1.6 million of us voted for Scottish independence and we’re not going to give up now. If anything, we’re even more determined that we’ll be an independent country in the not too distant future.
Catalonia to hold referendum. Spanish Central Government to declare it illegal. So much for democracy.
So, next week is the Tory conference; October – 2 by elections; November SNP conference, Catalonia by election (maybe) and stage 2 of the solemn vow.
henry McLeish predicting huge fall out for Labour.
Enough to keep us occupied while Stu on holiday!!!
Letter from Her Majesty the Queen to David Cameron
Dear David,
Thank you for your e-mail containing your carefully worded apology and the YouTube link to the Tom Jones hit “What’s New, Pussycat?” Philip chortles uncontrollably every time I play it.
Now, I really must say, David, I was surprised that you felt the need to phone me in the first place to inform me that my kingdom was still united. Are you under the impression that I do not possess a television, simply because I do not have a television licence? Growing numbers of my lesser subjects know that the two do not necessarily go together. Also, in future, you ought to look at the clock before you phone. Some of us need to sleep, you know.
Now, let’s come to the “purring” issue. I have discussed this at length with my servants and advisors, and we have arrived at two possible, although very different, explanations. The first of these is that what you heard was in fact Philip snoring in the background. Sometimes he sounds like a dysfunctional steam train, but every now and then his snoring tails off into something akin to the sound of a purring cat. The second, and, in my view, more plausible explanation is that you and the other Bullingdon Boys were so drunk on champagne that you completed your inane ramblings on the phone before dialling my number, and the purring sound you heard was in fact the dialling tone.
Kind Regards,
Elizabeth.
The almost febrile appetite for war shown by commentators on the BBC is truly frightening,
When (god forbid) we see Scottish servicemen coming home AGAIN in bodybags will the People who felt we were “Better Together” still feel that way?
P.S On the talk of ‘more powers’.
The Unionists have really shot themselves in the foot. They offered and promised through their print media and major politicians all sorts of , “Devo max”, “Home Rule”, “as close to Federalism as possible in the UK”.
I watched Question Time on Thursday, probably for the last time for the forseeable future, but Rory Stewart, Tory MP was on and made a fairly interesting point. I’m surprised that Swinney didn’t chase him up or clarify it.
He said “Scotland will get Devo Max, no ifs, no buts”.
I take it he doesn’t know what Devo Max is, 😉
Did anyone else not catch this?
@Bill Halliday:
I’m not an expert in geology, but I don’t think you can correlate coal seams and oil resources. Both ultimately are produced by the anaerobic decomposition of organic materials but under different conditions. Besides, coal formation stopped at the end of the Carboniferous, whereas oil is more recent (Jurassic, Cretaceous). Besides, since coal is more ancient, it should be found at a deeper level than oil, which means that coal mine shafts would be sluiced with oil, should both coexist at the same place.
I like the ivy thing. It’s very difficult to get rid of and eventually takes over…
link to opendemocracy.net
Hi all
Re the various TV/broadcasting initiatives starting up: I agree that we need to pull together all the various strands, as something that truly reaches the parts that the internet doesn’t reach, is going to need all the funds and resources it can get.
I can confirm that the people behind Freedom TV are totally genuine, and currently working as professionals in Scottish broadcasting. I can utterly vouch for their credentials. Their plan was/is to provide a variety of different programmes, including documentaries, perhaps a bit of comedy, etc – AS WELL as news and political stuff. They approached me to join with them, to which I had agreed). They had not realised that there were other initiatives, e.g. Broadcast News starting up at the same time.
When I pointed this out, they instantly made an approach to Broadcast News to see if they could “join forces” in some sort of way. I don’t know the outcome of that approach just yet, but I will also make sure that they are aware of Kendomacaroonbar’s project, and the others too.
I think it’s just a case of several start-ups starting up simultaneously, in the wake of the referendum result. That’s understandable. Everyone’s busy doing the day jobs, not necessarily following all of the comment threads on Wings etc (like wot I am!) to find out about other ones, and I think that is the only reason it appears (for the moment at least) like it’s a scattergun approach. I think (and hope) that within the next few days these various projects will link up – at least contact each other – to work out a plan of action that we can all support. And most importantly, one which will have the most viable chance of success. Let’s just give them a bit of time to get organised and to form their strategy.
Just my tuppenceworth, for what it’s worth.
@ nana smith
I totally agree here something is not right
Couldn’t we set up local Blether Meetings on Saturday mornings? It was a very successful idea in many areas running up to the referendum.
Even if we don’t have premises I’m sure local Yes supporting cafes and coffee shops would be glad of the extra business and it would be an informal platform for discussions on local and national politics.
Send a search party out for G Brown, missing from Parliament when a vote was required wither to send war planes into Iraq , naw don’t bother, no one wants him there , now that he has done their bidding , re the referendum and his input,.
What a dog!, gone back to being “North British ” again no doubt .
Scottish, Catalonia, Quebec Independence are quite different. Do not confuse them.
Just as EU and the UK Union are quite different. Do not confuse them.
Look at the history,
For shale oil and related matters, the best is to consult the US EIA report:
link to eia.gov
Surely amongst the lawyers for YES there must be concerns regarding Westminster setting out to urge foreign countries to state opposition to Scottish independence.
I feel this is one area we should be pressing for some action against. For them to malign and denigrate a country in such a manner is disgusting and for Scots mps to allow or even facilitate such measures is an appalling injustice.
Watched QT on the iplayer (no TV licence 🙂 ) the smarmy lassie asking if the SNP will give up on independence and admit the union is permanent, well Lesley Riddoch tore her another arsehole with her answer saying it wasn’t just the SNP who want independence. The deflated look on smarmy girls coupon was TV Gold
Get a boat load of WBB shipped up to Orkney/Shetland, they are out of the loop. Get more distributed in Fife etc. Start campaigning now.
The Unionists are bombing Iraq/ME poverty and deprivation, while people can’t heat and eat in Scotland. Get the message out,
The SNP are funded by it’s members, not Banks, Unions or Interet groups. Get the message out.
Gordon Brown is in New York, tax evading more..
Surely there is a gap in the market for YES cafes or coffee shops ..
Is the vesbar still the Yesbar?
I agree with retaining the YES brand. It could be the YES Alliance, or YES ALL for short.
Are the newsletters still being circulated? I wonder how we can distribute news such as fracking licences, Ian Wood’s fracking plans (if true) progress of the DevoMax/Federalism timetable, if any, and war games. etc etc
I’m sure the Unionist parties have also noticed there is a GE in 2015 and the MSM needs to stay on a war footing till then, and beyond.
With wars, fracking, more austerity, fears for the NHS, pension age could rise to 70 and back peddling on more powers, the 55 haven’t had long to wait to see how better things are going to be.
I believe vespar still yesbar and there is yes gathering tomorrow 1pm
NHS privatisation in action:
link to theguardian.com
@Valerie says: 27 September, 2014 at 12:44 am:
“Can everyone please refer to The British Labour Party in Scotland as I think that would be fabulous marketing – BLab for short.”
But, Valerie, is the Labour Party a British wide political party? Do they figure in the Republic of Ireland, Bailiwick of Jersey, Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Isle of Man? Would that not be a case of using the Westminster propaganda that they, the legally elected Government of the United Kingdom, (but unelected de facto government of the country of England), are all Britain?
You can hear it every time they open their mouths, (which is frequently), Cameron says he is, “The PM of Britain”, sending in the,British Armed Forces” into Iraq. The truth being he is only PM of the United Kingdom, part of Britain and is sending in the UK’s armed forces. The BBC does exactly the same thing telling us the the British Fighter Jets are being sent in to bomb the Iraq and Syrian Islamic countries.
Now pay close attention to this item on this mornings BBC Newscasts (The emphasis is mine.) : –
Headline = Four charged over £100m cocaine find.
Four British men have been charged with drugs offences after the seizure of more than a tonne of cocaine off the Irish coast on Tuesday.
The Drugs haul has an estimated street value of more than £100m, according to the UK’s National Crime Agency, (NCA).
It was seized when the Irish Navy intercepted a yacht off the Cork coast. Three men arrested on board have been charged with drug trafficking in Cork.
A fourth man in the UK has been charged with conspiracy to import cocaine.
So what of that Irish Navy?
Is not that a non-United Kingdom British Navy?
I’m sure the No campaign were pretty satisfied with the postal vote. If that had been all the information they had, maybe they would have sat back in the final week or two.
The thing is, a lot of the postal votes were cast before the late surge to Yes started, and they knew that. They also had up to date private polls and they knew from these that Yes was ahead. Both sides had private polling evidence putting Yes at about 53%.
That was why they went with “shock and awe” in the last week, culminating in the Vow.
have been saying this for days
westminster has hijacked the terms Devo Max and homerule
we should only talk of Full Fiscal Autonomy from now on
Robert, that’s the Irish Navy, as in Republic, and a very nice Offshore Patrol Vessel too, the LÉ Niamh (P52).
Still lots and lots of comments on here in denial about what actually happened. Why didn’t so and so do this or that? Why didn’t this personality appear more often? Why didn’t YES address such and such?
What actually happened was that we faced an information blockade
The WWB was an inspired reaction to that
The fact is it didn’t matter how good or how bad our literature was. It didn’t matter who did what on our behalf. It didn’t matter what rebuttals or what a statements we made in support of our positions. They weren’t reported in the media or they were completely distorted buy the media.
Jesus Christ and the Angel Gabriel would have had a bad press or no press at all. Some of our literature was first class. Some of it less so. The second newspaper had a silly bidding war on the front page but had really good stuff inside including a full layout of our pension plan and among other things. We hammered the threat to the NHS very comprehesively.
The white paper had hugely detailed plans and costings and no independence procession was ever so well served in a campaign. But we still faced huge numbers of people who hadn’t read it saying it was rubbish BECAUSE THE MEDIA TOLD THEM THAT.
That was what happened.
The WBB was a magnificent addition to our armoury and it is till being asked for.
We are keeping our YES shop open
We are going for bigger premises
We have an explosion of membership in the YES parties and huge new commitment
The media and unionist lies are coming home to roost because of the work that was done.
Did we perhaps do something right?
TV licensing – I see that loads of wingers are cancelling their tv licence and this is a good thing, I haven’t had a tv licence for around five years now and in that time I’ve had a lot of harassment from the tv licensing people. Here are a few points to help out anyone who is new to this world of threats and intimidation:
1) “TV Licensing” is a private company run by Capita on behalf of the TV Licensing Authority, which is the BBC. They run it this way to keep the BBC at arms length from the whole thing. “TV Licensing” try to give the impression they are a government body empowered with carrying out criminal investigations. They are not and they have no special powers in law.
2) They will send you a series of increasingly threatening and harassing letters. These letters always request that you should contact them to explain your situation if you believe you don’t need a tv licence, which seems reasonable. However, you are not legally obliged to contact them and if you do they will continue to send you letters after a while anyway “in case something has changed” and you now need a tv licence. Don’t bother contacting them by post, email or phone. They aren’t really interested and will just defer the letters for three months at the most. By contacting them you’re just letting them know they’ve got a bite. You might even go on their list for special attention.
3) The standard letters come in a variety of styles in an attempt to look more ‘official’ and intimidating. Some will be written in red ink and will tell you that “an investigation has been authorised” or that “our enforcement officers will soon be visiting” or that “your case has been referred to our prosecutions team for legal action” or even that “you may wish to refer to this letter in court“. They are especially fond of quoting sections of legislation and talking about the Crown Prosecution Service.This is all complete bullshit aimed at getting you worried enough to just stump up the cash. Ignore these letters as you would ignore any other junk mail – they’ve got exactly the same legal weight as all the unsolicited shite Reader’s Digest used to send my mum. After eight or nine letters you’ll just go back to the start of the cycle again.
4) Their “enforcement officers” are employees of Capita – salesmen on minimum wage and big commission who go from door to door attempting to intimidate folk into buying a license. They are private citizens just like you and me, they have no special legal powers. They will say almost anything to bluff their way into your house or elicit a confession of evasion. You are under no legal obligation to let them in your home or speak to them or even acknowledge their presence. They can only enter your property without your permission if they obtain a search warrant from a Sheriff and by all accounts this is undertaken vanishingly rarely. They have to have very strong evidence of actual evasion taking place to obtain a warrant and simply not having a tv licence is not evidence of anything in itself.
5) There is dubiety over whether or not “TV Detector” vans exist. Personally I choose to believe that while the technology is theoretically possible, the practical application is not. To date evidence from a “TV Detector” has never been used in a prosecution, which tells you something. Don’t worry about hi tech “TV Detectors” – the most reliable way of detecting a tv in use is looking through a window or listening at a door, then eliciting a doorstep confession from a startled householder.
6) You only require to have a tv license if you watch tv programs live at the time they are broadcast. If you watch DVDs, Blu Rays, iplayer, stv player, netflix, youtube, etc.. you don’t require a licence. You don’t need to detune your tv or remove/unplug your aerial as the offence is using the equipment to watch live tv, not simply having the equipment installed and available to be used.
Finally a quick summary of the above: Ignore the letters, don’t contact them, never speak to their salesmen and don’t worry about detector vans. Incidentally. I haven’t had a visit from TV Licensing in the five years I’ve been – legally – unlicensed.
Morag
I still remain confused by the final vote. It does not in any relate to any feeling on the street.
What I found and still find puzzling was the absolute confidence of the NO team and its supporters before a vote was counted. Did they know something none of the rest of us knew?
john king says:
27 September, 2014 at 8:52 am
Schrodingers Cat says
“We actually won in gordon browns own heart lands
from speaking to the guys who were at the count in Glenrothes, this is the impression they got as the votes arrived from the regions, rosyth and Kirkcaldy were observably YES. Rosyth is one of the few places not in the combined area of the Holyrood constituencies of Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath.
This obviously isnt a scientific poll John, just the impression the observers got in the counting hall
I believe this is in line with the Holyrood elections, i have been trying to post this data for days now but 75% of my posts are disappearing
i’ll try again
‘The Betrayers’ – BBC Scotland Drama Series grousebeater.wordpress
@Faltdubh -yes I did, I only watched it on iplayer cos someone mentioned how good Lesley Riddoch was.
Rory said Scotland will get tax raising powers and welfare powers devolved – Lesley said that’s devo nano.
I hope Rory is allowed no where near the discussions. I believe that we would have a case for declaring the ref null and void if we don’t get full fiscal autonomy cos Broon offered Home rule and federalism.
It would be useful if we could get the exact % that changed from Yes to No after the vow
Faltdubh
When you’re back over, tell them all you’re Scottish and voted YES. Early hours of Friday after seeing it was lost, my son and I were ashamed to be Scottish, talking about using our right to Irish nationaility. After sleeping it off though, soon back to normal, back to the fight – wings helped, as some were already talking about next time.
Dave
The NO campaign and campaigners were super confident, so were the YES supporters I met and “saw” online in forums, including me. It happens they won, we lost.
Ken500
I like your postings. On to the next, GE 6 months indeed.
@ Bill Halliday, AuldA
The term “fracking” is being erroneously applied to several different techniques, more properly referred to as Unconventional Gas Extraction.
In England, UGE is almost exclusively shale fracking, and that has led to the use of the term elsewhere. In Scotland, there are shales; oil shales were mined in the Midland Valley till the twentieth century. But there is also Coal-Bed Methane Extraction, and Underground Coal Gasification (the technique that worries me the most), which obviously take place in the Coal Measures.
I haven’t checked to see what licences have been issued, but the last map I saw several months ago was dominated by sites in the Central Belt.
Just while it’s on my mind, having seen about the cocaine haul yesterday and the LÉ Niamh OPV – the Irish Navy are getting 2 or 3 OPV built at Appledore in Devon.
Even NATO was able to beat up on Scotland’s Indy plans. There was one defence plan in the White Paper, for £2.5 billion annually, and share of UK assets, plus co-operation, with membership of NATO.
I think next time two plans are needed, Plan A and Plan B in all cases where the overall plan is dependent on other parties, such as the UK Government – e.g. currency union.
For defence I’d have the White Paper £2.5 bn defence Plan A with frigates, able to contribute to UN sanctioned NATO operations, and an undertaking to match the average NATO spend if it rises to 2% annually according to the Wales conference. But the Plan B would be if NATO put us at the back of the queue behind Tuvalu and the dark side of the moon for membership – never mind our strategic importance and Iceland gap. It needs to be in the next SG Indy plan, clearly laid out.
Plan B would be “A’ the Blue Bonnets” or similar e.g. MacDonald, but no frigates, perhaps 6-8 OPVs, 3-4 of them with helo deck and Lynx / Merlin or similar. If no share of assets, build them at Scotstoun or re-open Govan if BAE still too busy at Scotstoun with the T26. Would need fast jets, but just enough for our own needs. Gripens would do the job, even though my preference is the more expensive Typhoon. £1.6 bn a year budget.
That might make NATO think again about sending in its Secretary General and his bluster. Scotland style defence, not UK-style if you don’t want us as a full member of NATO, then we’ll be a Partener for Peace like Ireland – or Russia.
Dave, the problem was that the people who were going to vote No weren’t on the streets. And there were quite a lot of them.
@yesindyref2 says:27 September, 2014 at 1:29 am:
“Pensions was the worse one though, I checked the ONS graphs and figures for that, dependent population versus working age popualtion, and it was very easily defended “faster ageing population than the rest of the UK”, my left foot.
I checked too, yesindyref2, and the figures for the Palace of Westminster dependent population in the House of Lords versus working age population in the House of commons showed the HOL vastly outnumbered that of the HOC and that’s without accounting for the faster ageing, already overaged, members in the HOC. Not only that but both lots already have their outstanding HOC pension to fall back upon.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
Yes Dave, that is something which was made obvious prior to the vote, not least by Cameron himself. In 24hrs he went from a snivelling wreak to a very happy confident guy, witha smug look that betrayed him.
They DID, I am sure, know something that put them in a comforable place.
Someone of some body should draw up a list of companies that advocated they and their staff should vote No.
We should boycott them.
It seems to me hypocritical to have your money in an RBS account, for example, and still be happy to business with the crooks.
I wonder where they got all these people who were going round telling old people they’d lose their pensions, after years of having practically nobody on the streets. Did they somehow mobilise the Labour and Tory activists at the last minute? Given the number of reports of them doing it, there must have been a lot of people on the doorstep.
I think Cameron became confident mainly because they were doing a lot of private polling though, and knew it was working.
Another random thought. The strategy adopted by ScotGov and YES could be thought of as getting the YES % up to the 50% finish line.
A different more bold strategy might have got it over the 50%, but it might just as well have sent it back to say 33% YES, which would have finished Independence, not just for 2-3 years or a generation, but possible forever.
Perhaps a two stage process with a fair chance of getting over the 50% the first time, but building a steady momentum towards Independence support was the only safe way to do things for the ultimate aim of Independence for Scotland.
@Dave McEwan Hill
I think Yes did everything it could have done. It looks like it came to soon for the many people who are still emotionally committed to No. That is not to say we should not critique the Yes campaign, and learn lessons.
Morag: And there were quite a lot of them. [No voters]
Beware of promoting a fallacy.
According to post-polling analysis, over 25% of No’s were Yes until the last day convinced (fooled?) Devo-Max was on its way.
It is therefore possible to argue that a majority of Scots want the greater part of self-governance without full independence – the ‘best of both worlds’ as they see it.
If that notion could be secured without the possibility of rescinding powers, in whole or in part, I suspect that number would increase dramatically.
However, to have any real force internationally it needs to include a Scottish veto against mass destruction weapon renewal and war.
That aside, to the whinging English I ask, why keep hold of us if you don’t want us to be dependent? We are, after all, asking for independence.
I see the brave ukippers are telling Scotland not to abuse the English
Huffington post if anyone wants to bother reading the guff.
@Crazycat:
If you mean some form of gaz extraction from coal seams, yeah, obviously that would coincide. One has not to recall the large number of explosions having taken place during coal exploitation to figure out that where there’s coal, one can also potentially find abundant quantities of gaz.
But there cannot be any form of unconventional hydrocarbure extraction in the Highlands. The Caledonian folding has taken place in the Devonian, that is even before Carboniferous. Thus, there is no way any growing vegetables could ever have been trapped underground to undergo the decomposition process leading to coal or oil. Apart from ore (uranium maybe?), there is no energy to be retrieved there.
Dave McEwan Hill’s point about ‘the feeling’ is something I noticed here in Argyll. I’m not political, have never visited the Yes Shop but driving up to Dunoon town on Thursday evening was to pass people waving Scottish flags all through Sandbank. Folk were walking along Argyll St in Dunoon waving our flag, folk were amazing.
It was like the Berlin Wall coming down again and our nation was uniting – awkward analogy but the old time I felt this before was 1989 in Berlin.
And then, for Scotland, it went wrong.
Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath Combined HE and GE results
2005 GE
Labour 24,278 G.Brown Chancellor
SNP 6,062
Tories 4308
Libdem 5450
58% turnout
2007 HE notional
Lab 24240
SNP 17040
Torys 6190
Libdem 7450
Turnout 45%
2010GE
Labour 29,559 G.Brown PM
SNP 6,550
Tories 4258
Libdem 4269
62% turnout
2011 HE
Lab, 24300
SNP 23400
Tory 3685
Libdem 1422
46% turnout
Grouse Beater, whether they were 55% or 47%, there were quite a lot of No voters and they weren’t out in the streets. Many of them were very old.
Bear in mind that Yes really did win among the demographic that took to the streets.
In the Kingdom of Fife we have a saying
“Some say the deil is deid and buried in Kirkcaldy”
in May 2015, He will be
@caz-m says: 27 September, 2014 at 8:52 am:
“I don’t care what the logo name is, but we are drifting here. We need leadership from the “top”.
Nah! caz-m, we don’t need leadership from the top. What happened during the campaign was something wonderful and extraordinary. A very large portion of the population of Scotland began a grass-roots movement that took on a life all of its own. We mostly all belonged to some organization or other but some belonged to none. Yet we worked together and did what we needed to do and by heavens we almost made it. Note that at one point the YES campaign leadership were disassociating itself from WoS but none of the grass-roots campaign wavered for a moment and YES shops and stalls continued to hand out Wee Blue Books. The dog had long syne stopped wagging it’s tail and the people of that tail, those at the grass-roots, were wagging the dog.
From here on till independence this tail is going to wag the dog, or any other organ that tries to stop us and that includes the Establishment, her Majesty and the BBC & MSM. So don’t wait for orders from the top – just do it, but listen to the leading organizations for they are also now part of the Grass-roots.
Nothing succeeds like an idea whose time has come, (Aiblins yon wis jist a budgie wi nae wallies, Ah wis thinkin o’?).
@CrazyCat:
Something an independent Scottish government should get involved into:
Thorium as a safe and green nuclear fuel:
link to scientific-alliance.org
Morag: there were quite a lot of No voters and they weren’t out in the streets
They had no need to be. No is no.
What motivation is there to demonstrate it publically, none if you’re physically frail. Even on the penultimate day of the vote No diehards were few in number compared to the congregations of Yes voters.
Exactly. I was just replying to your comment about the vote not reflecting the feeling on the streets.
Oh sorry, not your comment, it was Dave who made the initial comment I was replying to.
quinie frae angus, thanks for the input on alternative broadcasting proposals. I’d been guided to “Broadcast News for Scotland”
link to indiegogo.com
by ‘Wings’ and (BNS shall we call it, second thoughts SNB)
at >300% of their interim funding request are aiming donors to others including “Freedom TV”.
We were way too cosy cocooned in Wings and NewsNet to realise just how many folk were still getting info from traditional media, mainly TV.And just how many of the 55 were “I’m all right as I am” Jacks who didn’t want to be seen for the selfish b******s they are?
Maybe we should have realised from the EU Elections that we were missing something. Like UKIP had a 10.5% average in Scotland.(14% in Moray)That was over 140,000 votes on a 33.5% Scottish turnout. If you project that up to an 84% turnout for the referendum it’s heading on 340,000 UKIP supporters who think the SNP are a crowd of Edinburgh Lawyers who want a Jacobite on the throne and Holyrood shut down.
Does G. Brown have to be a tax exile? I thought his £150,000 ex PM allowance was Tax free. And what about this Charity that flies him and Mrs Brown around in a Private Jet?
@Faltdubh says: 27 September, 2014 at 9:30 am:
“He said “Scotland will get Devo Max, no ifs, no buts”.
I take it he doesn’t know what Devo Max is.”
Rory knows but isna cairn.
@yesindyref2 says: 27 September, 2014 at 11:32 am:
“Robert, that’s the Irish Navy, as in Republic, and a very nice Offshore Patrol Vessel too, the LÉ Niamh (P52).
Yes, I know it is. My point is that there are eight different countries in Britain and only four of them are parts of the United Kingdom. Thus, (whether the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom like it or not), all eight are parts of Britain.
The Westminster United Kingdom parliament, (the de facto Parliament of the country of England), has no legal claim to be all of Britain, nor to tell anyone calling any British country home, they are not British. The Republic is a part of Britain as are the three Crown Protectorates.
This calling themselves Britain and every United Kingdom thing British is just the English Establishment doing a bit of Willie Waving. The Establishment has the inferiority complexed person’s need to feel they, “Punch above their weight”. Listen to them with that in mind.
A typical Cameron speech – “I am sending my British Air Force to bomb Iraq and my British Government, led by my British Conservative Party have decided to not put British armed forces British boots on the ground and I phoned the Queen of Britain and she purred at the good news. I’ve never heard any British Royal person so please at what my British government and my British Armed Forces are doing to Iraq”.
Thing is the government is the UK government and its crown head is not Queen of Britain. Furthermore the armed forces are the Queens as is the Parliament and government.
When Scotland disunites the bipartite United Kingdom I will still be every bit as British as I am now. I’m comfortable in my Britishness, Scottishness and manhood. I do not need to Willie Wave to boost my ego.
@Dave McEwan Hill says: 27 September, 2014 at 11:39 am:
“I still remain confused by the final vote. It does not in any relate to any feeling on the street. What I found and still find puzzling was the absolute confidence of the NO team and its supporters before a vote was counted. Did they know something none of the rest of us knew?”
I’m with you on that Dave. In this wee village we had a great YES presence since well before the poll opened. The local MSP turned up just around lunch time and set up a table. I was driving round the village with flags flying and Tannoy going and got a text to tell me about his arrival. I was just about to turn onto Main Street. By the time I got to his location he had packed up and gone. Apparently another van had passed him with a tannoy going and he just fled. Any NO campaigners there had been were few, didn’t hang arround and were very down in the mouth.
There were no further signs of NO at the polling place until around 08:00 – 09:00pm when a bunch of them arrived and seemed rather elated as if they had heard something. I seemed strange at the time and still does.
Robert, that’s the point I was addressing before. Yes were in the streets and visible. No were indoors, and there were rather a lot of them. Many were very old.
Bear in mind we WON in the demographic that was out in the streets.
One of the other polling agents in my village expressed concerns early on when she noticed extremely elderly people, people who don’t often leave their houses, being helped into the polling station by their middle-class Tory offspring. These people probably don’t normally vote, but they were being “got out” on a massive scale.
@crazycat says: 27 September, 2014 at 12:20 pm:
“In Scotland, there are shales; oil shales were mined in the Midland Valley till the twentieth century.”
Aye! Tell me about it? I was born among it. Tow of my uncles worked all theit lives in it, one though volunteered for the KOSB’s in WWII but returned to his job at Pumpherston Oil Works after demob.
Here’s a wee poen I wrote some years ago.
RID BINGS
There’s a feature O’ the countryside that’s kent aboot these pairts
The “Big Rid Bings” roond Pumpherston an’ Cawther and thone airts,
They’re relics O’ an industry that Scotland gave the nation.
When Yanks claim they discovered ile I’m filled wi’ indignation,
Fir roord aboot the Lothians a’ biddy kens the tale
O’ hoo it startit when a man got “Paraffin” frae shale.
An’ hoo throughoot the Lothians the monuments that sprung
Gave testimony tae the fact it startit up wi’ “Young”.
Yon Yanks micht ca’ it “Kerosene”, bit I’ll tell you the tale
O’ hoo the oil industry wis startit wi’ the shale
And many were the benefits that “Paraffin” did bring
Braw candles, lamp oil and, of course, the famous, – –
“Big Rid Bing O’ Lothians”
Many things came frae the shale, candles and medication,
Lamp oil, polish an’ sich like, an’ fir your education,
Detergents and the fuel oil then became a michty factor
Tae fuel the stoves an’ blawlamps,aye, an’ even fuel the tractor.
In many airts aroond the world they did its praises sing,
Bit roond aboot the Lothians we got the – – “Big Rid Bing”
The “Paraffin” brocht jobs and wealth to places roond aboot,,
Prosperity went han’ in han’ wi’ “Rid Bings” there’s nae doot.
Winchburgh, Oakbank, Pumpherston, the names roll aff the tongue,
Aw came tae life and prospered frae the industry O’ Young.
Broxburn, Bathgate and Upha’, the Cawthers and Dalmeny,
I canna’ name them a’ because there are so very many.
Bit a’ guid things cam tae an’ end, the shale wis nae exception,
The shale ran oot, and so did work, there could be nae decepion.
The works at Pumpherston ran oan processing ither things,
Bit ither airts got left wi’ naethin’ bit the “Big Rid Bings”.
Still yit, that’s no’ the end O’ things, the industry lives on,
They’ll spread the rid blae on the roads ’til the “Big Rid Bings” are gone.
By Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers.
Very Good Robert 🙂 We had the big red bings in Ayrshire too
@Morag says: 27 September, 2014 at 1:15 pm:
“I wonder where they got all these people who were going round telling old people they’d lose their pensions, after years of having practically nobody on the streets.”
I didn’t see any NO activists anywhere in the village and even the leaflets were delivered by the Postal Servive.
No, “NO”, campaigners were at the polls except the local MSP and councillor and those only briefly. However I live on the outskirts of the village and I was told by some of the old folks, I’ve known since I came to Fife to be near my work in 1962, that they had been visited by strangers to the village who told them pensions were to be removed from Yessers. In fact the old folks were warning me I could lose my pension and I knew they had been intent upon voting YES just days before.
Thorium
Yes and abundant, but not weaponisable.
test
???????????
Watch Ruth Davidson’s comments on the BBC wed site or youtube about knowing the results of the postal ballot before they should have been ‘officially counted’ – 10pm on the Thursday night.
She freely admits to what is completely illegal.
Davidson made it clear certain people were making contact to report how the “tallies” were going. That is illegal without even getting into votes being tampered with. [I am not a conspiracy theorist.] Clearly some involved in the sampling were there to report back to agents there who weren’t just present to check all was fair but to collect the tally reports.
She makes it clear how it was done and that it was done at all is illegal. She is astonishingly candid about it. She makes it clear that the results were being sampled which isn’t what sampling is about. That just means checking that the vote belongs to the right person. [I think; I had never heard of it before]
Glenn Campbell actually points out to her that sampling is about verifying the identity of the voter, not checking how that person has voted. Fair enough. But she makes it clear there were people there tallying votes within “certain Local Authorities”. It is really quite extraordinary. She also says “We’ve had people at every sample opening around the country and the results have been very positive for us.”
So there are two groups here who have broken electoral rules in the sampling process. One group are within those sampling the votes who were used to “tally” votes – and the other group would be agents present being told the way people had actually voted and then passing it on to BT anyway, though maybe also to Yes..
This raises questions too about some Local Authorities failing to ensure Electoral rules were followed to the letter. It means the whole voting system at the end of the day was corrupt, even if possibly in a minor way. But if it meant in a referendum a campaign strategy would be altered, then it is very serious.
It is in the hands of the police now but we must not let it drift into long drawn out discussions which will mean a little wrist slapping. This is an offence worth a fine of £5k or a year in the clink.
We must not let this get buried. 36,000 views on YT already, but it must go wider than the Yes camp. Here’s hoping.
Ailsa Craig: We must not let this get buried. 36,000 views on YT already, but it must go wider than the Yes camp. Here’s hoping.
Many thanks for the heads up. Fascinating stuff.
A vow which the BBC & other outlets were all too eager to promote and sell as Devo Max/Home Rule. Some even used those exact terms – Jackie Bird I distinctly recall used the very phrase Devo Max.
Like I said, it was the unionist party’s lies over Scotland’s future in the union, AND the mainstream media’s complicity in perpetuating those lies. The vow was simply the biggest lie: others include “your pensions won’t be safe,” “we might not get to use the pound,” “the NHS will be in danger” etc
@Taranaich – raw meat for the gallery in my opinion. We had them beat my friend and they shat themselves. RIC canvassers reported massive Yes and all the disenfranchised registering to vote were Yes the vast majority of the 16-17 were Yes but we lost. We lost to the evil, corrupt but powerful British Establishment and any hope to win in a fair and free ballot are lost,we cannot win in a situation we can’t control
Taranaich
I remember too the day of the vow thing, Jackie Bird, banging on about DevoMax in an interview [with John Swinney?] and was told it was NOT DevoMax a few times, but she bullied him into silence, by saying, ‘well, let’s just call it DevoMax then, for the moment’, and the next thing the whole MSM jumped on the bandwagon.
My main point is, I have thought long and hard for a week as at first, I could not really speak about the result: I was too upset. There are 2 things we have to get into focus.
1. When the Establishment has power they will do ANYTHING, however low, to keep their hands on that power. Niccolo Machiavelli said, in his book “The Prince”, which although written about 400 years ago is to the point ….
“Deceit, Hypocrisy and Lies are all seen as legitimate weapons in the battle to hold o to political power. ” Sound familiar? This s what ‘big government’, in hand with the City spivs, the landowners, the wealthy, nowadays the media too, does to make sure they keep power. History has shown this to be very true. Unless those holding power weaken, or are made weak, which for a few glorious days they were, before massing together to shock and awe. We have to realise nothing is too low to do. Project Fear, scaring old people, the sick, the vulnerable, the comfortably off, etc. Blatant lies, spoken with no shame, in spite of e.g. the Pensions Minister saying all would be well, they got in there and rammed all the lies home.
We have to realise that is realpolitik, how things work and remember that. If you know your enemy, then you have a chance to explore the weaknesses – which is what Stu did. Getting the message across to a bigger audience is the harder thing to do when all the forces are against you. WOS was a fantastic start and has to grow, but ran up against wild accusations of ‘rabid mobs terrorising the streets and PQ’, in the Press. We have been set off on the right road. We just need to make it a motorway.
2. I have read, watched, listened and thought hard. We have to look at mistakes we made. And accept there were mistakes. Forget in-fighting against the old. Forget conspiracy theories. We lost against a bigger power. Accept where this big government thing won, and be prepared to alter tactics.
The young, and men up to 45ish, were pretty much won over, but not all. The female vote was growing strongly but fell away nearer pension age. With smaller pensions, widowed, alone, they were easy prey to sleazy propaganda. Remember in Scotland the average age of men is scandalously low, leaving very many women on their own in a scary world. The rich, comfortably off, ‘I’m all right, Jack’, brigade are perhaps the hardest to win over as they are the selfish. Full stop. If you have something to lose, you hang on to it. Human nature. There are a lot of them about and either we have to forget about them or get them on to our side. But how?
Perhaps Yes were too ‘in your face’ and need to rethink tactics. Perhaps we were too nice, too confident, too scary for the rich – forgetting that the opposition were playing so dirty. Perhaps we were a bit too short on how to get to that ‘fairer society’, how to deal with the hard facts of the currency issue, [setting up our own style Bank of England with our own share of the assets first?], Perhaps our hopes needed a bit more hard reality, hard facts
Perhaps we have to realise that a lot of people, 2 million of them, are ‘too feart’, even if it shames us.
I don’t have all the answers, tho’ I have lain awake at nights thinking hard about it, and am not near the mainstream in the cities, but a working group, based on all the tremendous talent, Yes threw up – I think of Jeane Freeman, Carol Leckie, Robin MacAlpine, Patrick Harvie, our own politicians in Holyrood [AS isn’t going away!] who have grown up into formidable forces over the years, Elaine C Smith and many others. Such a depth of talent we mustn’t waste it. Maybe it could be more co-ordinated. I am proud of our ‘losers’!
We have lots of Scottish brain power and Nicola is no slouch either, but we are a broad church which is great, but has problems too, being so wide. We maybe did not have the Plan all ready to fit into place and win over the waverers, [there were holes in it] but the foundations are there for the future.
If we accept that some tactics were wrong, that we need more independent publicity and are prepared for low life opposition, we will be ready for the next time. The spirit is there, the energy is there, the desire is there, The behaviour in the campaign was generally good, with a sense of joy in the faces of angry Noes. 1 arrest; 20 so far for the others that Friday night. The SNP has grown in numbers, and they have to grow into a Party that seems a lot more than promises, a bit more feet on the ground,
Most of all we must not sit around moaning and blaming. We have to reorganise, and today’s march and the numbers joining the various parties is encouraging; the dream will never die; we are keeping it very much alive, but we have to be ready for the long, and dirty fight ahead.
I know this is quite a long post but it has been going round in my head for a week now. I have been careful not to just react in anger or sorrow. When the holidaymaker returns I am quite willing and able to make a daytime, rather than sleepless night time analysis of my thoughts, if that is of any help to WoS. [whisper, I did a bit of journalism, in my youth; sorry!]
Until then, it would be good to know any feedback, good or bad, if anyone managed to read it all!
@BtP:
(On Thorium) wrong! I’m sure you can make very efficient swords or good solid clubs with it. Who calls for more? 😉
@BtP:
since you speak French, you can also consult this site :
http://www.enregieduthorium.fr
There is a nice conference by a Nissan engineer on the ‘nuclear’ car.
Well, not a car with a portable nuclear power source, but a car that burns methanol, itself obtained from hydrogen and CO?, the hydrogen being extracted from water by electrolysis driven by nuclear electricity. No net CO? production (the same amount of CO? used in the methanol synthesis is released by the thermal engine of the car).
Oops. The link was wrong:
http://energieduthorium.fr
In English:
http://www.the-weinberg-foundation.org
Removed my Yes sticker from back window of car because campaign was over. 5 minutes later stopped driving to put it on the windscreen instead. Saw a documentary on Native Americans explaining cutting hair as part of mourning. Decided to shave head to mourn the death of democracy and political truth/accountability. Wanted to keep it shaved for 1month for every year of G.B. Democracy, but thanks to continuous dictatorship over dependencies I will be letting it grow back naturally. More power to the courageous people still flying saltire. Shame on Rutherglen with their very high vantage point flagpole.
It’s pretty simple next time around advise all yes voters not to lodge a postal vote. Make arrangements for anybody that can’t get to the polls to provide transport for them.
Not calling on your ideas about Thorium. Just the Scientific Alliance link. 🙂
link to sourcewatch.org
@Ilyana:
Oops. Thanks for the pointer, I wasn’t aware of that.
So I add this: “DISCLAIMER: I don’t endorse the position of the Scientific Alliance on any other question, but I do nevertheless think their opinion on thorium as a safer mean to produce electrical power is sound.”
The energetic equation of an independent Scotland is a question to be studied. With only two nuclear reactors in use (~ 2GW) — for how long? — Scotland would either need to import most of its electricity, or invest massively in power plants. Winds farms are great, but as with any other green energy, it is intermittent. It has to be backed up by a solid, constant and sustainable source of power. Turning back to fossile fuels like Germany does is just moronic. Since Scotland has no military project, thus no ‘compelling need’ to generate plutonium, then why not opt for a 100% civilian, modern and efficient nuclear power production which would make Scotland a world leader in this new cleaner and safer technology?
The civil nuclear industry has always been the stooge of the militaries. That must change.
In the year 2000 Westminster removed the requirement for serial numbered ballot papers to be perforation franked before issue and the serial no entered against the electors name on the register. I WONDER WHY..
AuldA
Methanol and Ethanol are a wee speciality of mine; biologically speaking.
There was a position some years ago that alcohol fuel cells was the way to go with battery life extension, especially in small electronics like mobile phones but one big stumbling block was taking them onboard aeroplanes.
@BtP:
Then you know that the best way to cure a methanol intoxication is to knock a whole bottle of whisky back. Whisky can save your life.
For further info on green synthesis of methanol and its use as fuel:
link to en.wikipedia.org
AuldA
Yes to the whisky cure or better vodka and the use of a fuel, I used to have a lot of info on the bacterial production of methanol but have erased most of my references.
It is used to make biodiesel and is also miscible in ethanol so can be used in etho-essence. as can glycerol in diesel engines; see above.
I am going back to sleep.
I think Renewables are the way forward.
link to scotland.gov.uk
How far we can go with this given that energy is a reserved matter and Scot Gov only has control over planning remains to be seen.
@BtP: I didn’t know pandas were nocturnal. But thanks for the info. I was told alchemists were extinct, but obviously I was wrong! 😉
@Ilyana: I wish the future could be green only. But pretending that 100% of the energy needs of any reasonably developed country can be covered by renewables is a make-believe, unfortunately. Look at the figures for Germany, which has made huge investments in wind power.
The Scot Gov 2020 Routemap for Renewable Energy in Scotland Document [link in my post above] seems reasonable to me.
Do you have some sources which show why the Scot Gov plans are make-believe.
Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond has said there is “no chance” of more nuclear power stations being built in Scotland.
AuldaA
Norway has 100% + of its electricity generating requirement delivered by hydro electricity, it does have small amount of other energy sources but it doesn’t actually need them. It is a net energy exporter.
Iceland ditto but with geothermal.
Brazil ditto again with hydro electricity.
Not ALL countries can have 100 renewables, it depends on your luck.
Scotland is one of the lucky ones, it could produce a very large proportion of its EGR from tidal + HE if not in fact all of it.
Tidal has the great advantage of being non weather dependent and predictable and this in combination with HE which is nearly climate independent represents a massive reduction in required backup systems which is a major indirect cost for renewables like wind and wave.
AuldA at 1.01
The actual fact is that Scotland produces enough power already without nuclear power if need be. There is a hydro complex close to me which is rarely used but available for use as and when.
Bit silly to ignore the two big hydro schemes coming into use soon and forget about wave and tidal power.
Ok. I apologize for this. My reasoning was based on electrical consumption of a ‘denser’ country. Scotland consumes around 40,000 GWh per year, which would be covered by a 4 GW plant alone (I had France in mind, whose consumption is ten times bigger). What happens here is that the projected renewable capacity is massively oversized to make up for intermittency (27 GW planned vs 4 GW absorbed. ~20% mean efficiency, which is a reasonable figure for wind power).
You can’t compare wind generation with hydro- or geothermal. The latter (can) work 24/24 365/365 at nominal power. (Given it rains enough for hydro-; that reminds me of a joke: “Scots claim it rains only twice a year in Scotland, but each time it lasts six months”)
The problem with tidal is the potential impact on the ecosystem. See, e.g. the Rance Tidal Power Station in Brittany:
link to en.wikipedia.org
But it’s a good idea if you can cope with silt and corrosion.
By the way, it’s nice to see that so many wingers are keen on energy production. Great! 😉
Totally agree dave