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Wings Over Scotland


The Sitter

Posted on October 30, 2020 by

It’s important not to understate the magnitude of the chance we’re missing.

Because the SNP’s abandonment of any hope of Scottish independence until at least 2031 – because make no mistake, that’s what happened today at the hands of an anonymous party committee – is all the more criminal when you realise how close to our fingertips the prize is.

(Refusing to consider Plan B means no chance of a viable democratic trigger until the 2026 election, and we already know the SNP think it’ll take another five years after a Yes vote to actually achieve independence. Today’s decision is SO bad that even Cosy Feet Pete Wishart thinks it’s a terrible idea.)

A new poll today gave independence another firm lead – 56% to 44% – but we’ve had a dozen of those now. That wasn’t nearly the most interesting thing about it, which is found when you drill down below the headline.

The poll included two levels for agreement and disagreement, but more unusually also two meaningfully-identical “Don’t Know” options – an actual “don’t know” but also “neither agree nor disagree” for no obvious reason. The final result in a vote very rarely differs noticeably from the polling with DKs removed, so let’s see what we’ve got.

One of the most striking findings is stuck second from bottom on that chart.

“Scotland’s economy would be stronger as an independent country”

AGREE: 45% (18% strongly, 27% normally)
DISAGREE: 29% (8% strongly, 21% normally)

(Excluding DKs: 61%39%)

This is huge, and really can’t be exaggerated. Traditionally this has always been one of the weakest areas for Yes in polling, and to not just be in the lead but in the lead by a convincing 3:2 margin is absolutely massive.

The Unionist press has been especially dishonest on this point in the wake of Brexit, pretending that independence would be an EXTRA layer of difficulty on top of leaving the EU, when – as Wings has been pointing out for several years now – the exact opposite is true.

There would undoubtedly be a downside in terms of trade with England, but it would be more – much more – than offset by the benefits of being back in Europe, and on the side with all the cards in the EU/rUK relationship. Brexit will be disastrous for Scotland, and independence is the only cure.

There are also vast majorities for topical issues like the Prime Ministership of Boris Johnson, the Tory rule of the UK and the coronavirus. But while helpful, those are temporary and no good for relying on – Johnson could be deposed, Labour could win an election or a vaccine for the virus could be found – so let’s pass over them.

Because the REALLY striking findings of the poll, and the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that the SNP’s timid/cynical uselessness is set to squander, are in questions 3 and 5, which are basically the same question.

“Arguments about independence dominate everything and becoming independent would allow Scotland to finally end the debate” 

AGREE: 65% 
DISAGREE: 13%

(Excluding DKs: 83%17%)

“The issue of independence is divisive and by becoming independent it would allow us to finally end the division and move on”

AGREE: 59%
DISAGREE: 18%

(Excluding DKs: 77%23%)

It’s what you might call the “sod it” vote. People outside the political-activism bubble are sick to death of politics, and especially constitutional politics. In Scotland they’ve had it rammed down their throats for the last 13 years, with no end in sight.

On the basis of polling, on the basis of topical opportunity, and on the basis of letting people finally draw a line under years of division and hatred and get on with their lives, it’s this site’s view that a plebiscitary election next May would beyond a reasonable doubt produce a clear and healthy majority for independence, in a manner which would be accepted by the international community.

If we let the whole grim mess drag out for another five years or more, people will just become resigned to it. Brexit will become a day-to-day reality, the new normal, and the SNP’s grotesque hate crime bill will crush any dissent against their rule – if Holyrood still exists at all. It has to be 2021 or we’re screwed.

But the SNP are so determined to dither and delay until the moment passes that they won’t even let their own conference debate it. Just like that Gary Naysmith cross into the box 12 years ago this month, it’s beyond any credible defence.

At least Chris Iwelumo took the shot.

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      The Sitter | speymouth

    211 to “The Sitter”

    1. Wulls says:

      Cue the music……,”It’s now or never”

    2. I think the SNP leadership cannot contemplate any form of independence that isn’t extremely soft and gradual, and they cannot see any way to achieve that while the UK isn’t part of the EU (or at least the EEA), so they’re now waiting for the EU to rejoin before launching indyref2.

      “Skydiving seems rather dangerous from this height, so we’ll wait till we’re close to the ground before jumping.”

    3. Ronnie says:

      poor Chris huvin tae carry that… forever

    4. Ryan says:

      This would honestly make you sick to your stomach. I wonder how “anonymous” this committee is, or is it just another veil for the NEC?

    5. Margaret Lindsay says:

      If I hadn’t resigned my membership last year, I would in the light of the past few days. Do you think the SNP will be calling for “ringfenced donations” now for 2031?

    6. Bill Cowan says:

      Tweet from Smith seems to be either a frightened reaction or possibly something else. https://twitter.com/AlynSmith/status/1322119224471543810?s=20&fbclid=IwAR07vuyIo7IKis4YFB3SE3MBQuYZSf_a_uqtiR30SjpSmVfSB3rx55NqZYU

    7. Thomas Dunlop says:

      Something has to give. Is there anyway to rest control of the SNP from the careerists?

    8. Harry mcaye says:

      I’ve spotted a rare error. It was a Gary Naysmith cross, not Steven Naismith. What do I win?

    9. Ron Maclean says:

      All along we’ve seriously over-estimated the integrity of Nicola Sturgeon and her leadership team. At the same time we’ve seriously under-estimated the strength of an establishment with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. Should we continue to do what we always do? Nothing but wait?

      What can we do? We could stand an anti-corruption candidate against Nicola Sturgeon. Surely we can find at least a hundred members from twenty branches who have had enough. Can we find a candidate for them to nominate?

      ‘All we can do is keep up the pressure, …’

    10. Skip_NC says:

      So basically, the idea that National Conference is the supreme policy-making body of the party is complete bollocks.

    11. Daisy Walker says:

      I posted this on the last thread, but it is relevant.

      Short version, Rev, please do a Crowdfunder for £1million for the purposes of promoting an Indy Scot and informing the public about your Bath Charter.

      @ Rev Campbell says ‘The only meaningful thing that will change this mess is the removal of Nicola Sturgeon and her clique. Realistically that isn’t going to happen at conference with the party riding so high in the polls, because it’s a PARTY conference, not a YES MOVEMENT conference. All we can do is keep up the pressure, wait for what should be an inevitable resignation in the wake of the Salmond/Ministerial Code inquiry findings, and then hope that there’s still time before the election.’

      With respect I disagree. It leaves us, the Yes movement, with all our eggs in one ‘bastard’ and no plan B of our own. The Cash for Ash scandal in NI should show us, just how insulated from justice are the BritNat chosen ones.

      The biggest lever to oust NS and co, would be a Criminal Investigation into her actions for multiple suspected acts of Fraud, and the Embezzlement of the IndyRef2 fund.

      Even if the Police were to entertain that, and in the first instance they would bat it back to the complainer to contact the Electoral Commission, arguing that they were the authority best placed to deal with it – which is not true, but won’t stop them trying.

      The Police would take their own sweet time on this, and it would take a minimum of a year before they published any kind of result.

      Given their actions re AS, I would seriously doubt their integrity on this, and it may even hinder further public disclosures, were they to libel a token charge with the Fiscal….

      The Yes movement, badly needs a pick up, but more than that, they need a plan and someone to vote for. Once they have that, they can and will campaign

      With or without full lockdown, the nearly / only effective method of campaigning just now is going to be via leaflets, and billboards, bumper stickers… and we MUST have someone to vote for at Holyrood (SNP or other) who will have as their manifesto your Bath Charter for Indy.

      One group who put the SNP lackadaisical approach to Indy absolutely in the shade was the ‘Led By Donkeys’ group in England. And I don’t doubt for a second that part of the inspiration for their Gallas was the IndyRef in Scotland.

      You have crowdfunded for the Wee Blue Book 2, and it is ring fenced.

      What would happen if you were to crowd fund now, to start campaigning now, for Indy For Scotland, and set the target at £1 million. The emphasis being on Billboards, and posters, and your Bath Mandate.

      At the very least it would put a fighting fund back in the Indy Camp’s kitty… and piss off some greedy, light fingered souls in the SNP.

      And in the mean time, on a local level, local candidates – some of whom might just currently be in the SNP – come to the fore and get ready to stand for election on this issue. Our very own plan B.

      And lets be ever so slightly devious here, were a local SNP candidate to campaign for Holyrood on ‘yet another mandate sometime in the future’… and in that the last month have their road to Damascus moment…. and drop the whip and sign up to your Bath Charter – the voters would know exactly what it was and what they were, or were not voting for.

      I’m sure there will be a few who would do exactly that, if the feedback they got at the doors was telling them it was that, or not getting re/elected at all.

    12. The Dissident says:

      @Bill Cowan

      I wonder if the statement of the reality Daddy Bear talks about will come from the same planet as Colin Beattie’s statement of reality?

    13. Sarah says:

      Craig Murray is standing for President – of the SNP.

    14. Scozzie says:

      David Bryne said it best…once in a lifetime, letting the days go by, same as it ever was….I hold these corrupt MSPs and MPs in total contempt. And the ones who stay stay silent even more. Same as it even was indeed….road to nowhere.

    15. Graf Midgehunter says:

      “….after it was rejected by a key party committee.”

      Which committee would this be:

      The secret Murrel protection commmittee.
      Where’s the money gone committee.
      The Wokey woo-woo committee.
      Stuff the members committee.
      Settling down in WM committee.

      This whole disaster is like a huge boil that’s getting bigger every day, the pimple should have been lanced at midnight of the 31 January this year. ToU busted.

      Do the SNP have the guts for another try 31st of December? Cowards – no way.

      A plebiscitary election next May? It has to be 2021 or we’re absolutly screwed. Next on the dodo list.

    16. Livionian says:

      Well this is it. Time is running out. Another decade (god help us) of SNP rule will harm independence further. People personalise politics and people will get sick of Sturgeon and her illiberal agenda. SNP will become another Scottish labour. People will be put off independence purely because of this (the sort of voters who vote for a party purely because they like the pretty colours on a candidate’s tie). And it is these swing voters that decide our democracy (unfortunately).

      We need a solution out with the SNP. And we have no time to lose. If anyone has any ideas I am all ears. Economic policy is not all that important to coalesce around in the short term. We need an alternative strategy for independence, and I am willing to link as with anyone who feels the same way

    17. Robert Graham says:

      I guess it’s a who blinks first standoff then

      The SNP management firmly believe they have the YES movement and independence supporters in some kind of political straight jacket along with the public and are betting these polls are right

      I have never liked the idea of being forced into any corner particularly by politicians , anyone from the SNP management reading this please Note I don’t have to vote for your party , ok some good welcome things have been achieved while the SNP were in government but the Main Aim in fact the No 1 Objective has so far been woefully neglected ,Avoided and relegated downwards on the To Do list, and publicity stated it’s off the Table until this pandemic is over, that could be some time

      I have had the feeling for some time this SNP management are embarrassed by the YES movement and their push for independence,it appears a whole centre right party is being formed to gather support from those people who are not really that bothered about a independent Scotland

      I could be wrong but I haven’t seen anything that gives me confidence this SNP in it’s current form and under this leadership really wants to rock the boat and upset the English Establishment

      With all due respect SNP management that was not the Deal I was offered in return for my Vote so cough up or get out of the bloody way no more Jam tomorrow pish yer times up the only reason the SNP exists is because of independence support because your new found pals who used to support unionist parties will drop support as soon as the word Independence is mentioned maybe that’s why we haven’t heard it mentioned recently .Dont want to scare the new pals eh .

    18. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Livionian

      ‘We need an alternative strategy for independence, and I am willing to link as with anyone who feels the same way’

      The Indy kitty needs replenished – as much for moral as anything else.

      If Wings Over Scotland were to do a £1million fund raiser with a view to stating the case for a plebescite Holyrood election (Bath Charter), utilising Billboards, bumper stickers, posters, leaflets, etc. Firstly he would get it!

      The Yes Movement would do the legwork.

      That would provide the voters with the info they needed, and a plan on what to vote for, and what to campaign for.

      Alternative local candidates would come to the fore in this period, sign up to the Bath Charter and put pressure on SNP to grow a spine and a pair of balls. It would be our leverage, our ‘we’re back’ statement and our method of delivering Indy.

      I never contributed to the missing IndyRef2 fund, because, I was not impressed with what they had produced during IndyRef1. I was highly impressed with the Wee Blue Book, and that, more than anything, put the tools in the hands of the campaigners…. I was keeping my contribution for him.

    19. Sarah says:

      @ Daisy Walker, Ian Brotherhood and others: I agree we need to do something – the new parties that the Rev advocated don’t cut the mustard as yet. If the Rev formed one I think that would be a better-run and backed party than the current crop.

      Meanwhile a Wings fundraiser, a protest camp as IB suggests, and a manuscript Covenant would all be useful. Oh and a petition to Holyrood demanding an immediate vote/election.

    20. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I’ve spotted a rare error. It was a Gary Naysmith cross, not Steven Naismith. What do I win?”

      Doh! I mistook Stephen Fletcher for Naismith in the video. Although as it CLEARLY SAYS GARY NAYSMITH IN THE ARTICLE I’m sure I don’t know what you’re even talking about.

    21. Malcolm Crate says:

      I have supported the SNP all my life, with the sole purpose of achieving independence, I have never voted for them on the basis of their proposed policies to govern. If they wont make independence by whatever legal means available as there main manifesto pledge then am out. My vote will now go to whatever party is willing to say if they were to gain a majority or a controlling share of MSPs at the next election they would declare UDI. A one line manifesto with no other policy commitments is all that is required.

    22. Stuart MacKay says:

      Every second from now takes further and further away from rejoining the EU. If we gain independence 5 years from now then it’s going to be a number of years after that before we can demonstrate the ability to follow the EU rule book. So it really is now or never.

      If there ever was a plan to utterly cripple Scotland’s chances of a better future and keep us tied to Westminster then you couldn’t find a better road than the one the SNP leadership have us on now.

    23. Robert Graham says:

      Sarah : 12:46
      Ha Ha very good, any chance of Craig being admitted to the SNP in any roll would cause more than a few Heart Attacks total apoplectic Shock more likely .
      Sorry can’t stop laughing and I bet Craig is in stitches as well , someone actually wanting Independence my that’s a novelty eh Totally Alien to the current Leadership IMHO .

    24. Stuart MacKay says:

      Sarah

      Time also for businesses to step up and start saying how Brexit is going to screw us over. I’ll bet that will focus minds quite a bit.

    25. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “If Wings Over Scotland were to do a £1million fund raiser with a view to stating the case for a plebescite Holyrood election (Bath Charter), utilising Billboards, bumper stickers, posters, leaflets, etc. Firstly he would get it!”

      I very much doubt that. This month has been our biggest of the year traffic-wise, and bigger than a fair few months of 2019 as well, but much of our content this year has pissed off a large chunk of people, including some donors. Accordingly I’d be surprised if a fundraiser got near to previous years’ totals, especially amid all the financial stresses and uncertainties of the coronavirus, and with the festive season also looming. (And also without the ability to publicise it daily on Twitter.)

      I still don’t currently intend holding one this year, because tbh kicking lumps out of the SNP isn’t what I started this site for, but we’re still expecting the final bills for the Dugdale case at any moment and when we get them I may invite readers’ views on whether we should try to top the Fighting Fund back up.

      It’s also good to hang fire for a little while yet, because if Nicola Sturgeon somehow survives and looks like leading the SNP into the 2021 election after all, then frankly the game’s up for independence and it’ll be time to decide how to dispose of what’s in the FF now and go and find something else to do with my life.

    26. Mike Fenwick says:

      (@ Rev Stu Campbell – I hope repeating this from the last thread does not break any convention/rules you may have)

      With no technology involved, 70 years ago, 2 million Scots signed a Covenant, one by one they stated their collective and unified demand for Scotland’s future.

      There is today an example using technology, the Scottish Digital Covenant, some are suspicious of it, some don’t have the required ID to participate, but does that mean there are not alternatives?

      Discussions to create and offer that alternative are underway.

      Question: If you were offered an alternative – not using blockchain – but as a parallel method of repeating what 2 million Scots did 70 years ago would you participate?

    27. Kenny says:

      Yes, new strategy badly required, I’m fit to burst.

      On other stuff: a fairly prominent and staunch SNP Twitter account who I thought was finally coming round to questioning events, today tweeted her intention for SNP 1 & 2 for next year. I cannot fathom the ability folk have for simply refusing to see a thief stealing from them, from under their very nose. Incredible.

      Yes, new strategy, badly required.

    28. Joemcg says:

      I think what made it worse was that George Burley put big Chris on instead of Kris Boyd. I’ll always remember the look on Boyd’s face on the bench after the miss. His bread and butter. Is there a metaphor in there somewhere? Cherry sitting on the bench?

    29. Big Jock says:

      I was at the game Stu. Can’t describe the look of disbelief on my fellow fans faces. Typical Scotland!

      You could describe what we are not doing now as typical Scotland. We have won already, but we somehow manage to lose again.

      The SNP leadership are a total failure. We must have a peoples uprising to remove them. I haven’t a clue how we do this.

      The anger is growing though.

    30. Big Jock says:

      BTW , big Chris is a great guy despite that miss. Coatbridge’s finest.

    31. Sarah says:

      @ Rev: you did say that if no-one set up an alternative party, then you would do so. Well, as I said above, the alternative parties aren’t really very appealing – no big hitters nor brilliant organisation. You and Alex could do a whole lot better.

    32. James Che. says:

      Some of us have been saying for a while that this is no longer a political party agenda, they fail us and can be infiltrated.
      This is a people moment, we need to make the move, we need to show some of our old 2014 happy inspiring all together momentum,
      To a certain degree I agree with what you say Daisy. however there is no time left to sort out the SNP, to go through the long winded processes for police or routing out the dead wood.
      south of the border their not waiting for anything, they make the moves legal or not, Brexit and draconian measures along with stealing powers from Holyrude are already on the move in Westminster,
      So far we have watched them approaching with our eyes shut and our fingers in our ears,
      We’re not even sure we will have a devolved government by spring time that carries any weight.
      I do agree that the people can display banners from their houses and gardens, stating we the people want to end the treaty of the union. Or a statement similar. We can place posters all over the country side saying the same,
      We do not need to write to snp or to police or whomever else that does not listen to us, let us take the initiative, take back control and display to anyone and everyone what we want and expect,
      How could snp, conservatives, labour, Lib Dem’s, bbc, or any other media ever again, tell the world that the Scottish people are fed up with the division that independence causes,
      Let our voices be heard immediately,
      No lock down rules would be broken, no need for marches, no need for awaiting for responses to letters or complaints, that are rebuffed or evasive. No need for raising funds,
      Step 1. Is letting our own voices be heard, not through some spokesperson who is playing delay tactics.
      Every other media and its dog throws out their opinion of what the Scottish people want, except us, that should not be the reality.
      Let passers by spread the word by taking snaps of all the posters and banners hanging from every window, car, wall or fence, in every town or countryside, post them on all social media, platforms and blogs,
      We need a voice and with some urgency.
      If some landlords will not allow posters or banners from your house, then make or buy Scottish flag curtains. Where there is a will there is a way, for our voices to be heard, it would soon be reported, around the world.

    33. Meg says:

      If the Scottish branch of the Labour party declared independence from Keir Starmer’s increasingly right wing party, then declared it would strive to bring in an early vote on Independence they could easily beat the SNP in an election.

      But they would not need to actually do it. UKIP managed to get the UK out of the EU just by frightening the Tory leadership.

    34. Breeks says:

      With all due respect to the List Parties, I think it’s time for a fully blooded YES Party fighting for seats on an Independence ticket,… but, and here’s the big disconnect, I think Holyrood is not right vehicle for doing it. We need to ski off piste for a bit.

      We need an Independence Convention set up outside of Holyrood, with representatives swearing fealty and allegiance to the sovereign Constitution of the Scottish Nation, and unfortunately too, it would seem we need to see them denouncing the faux authority of Holyrood as a device that is complicit with Westminster’s colonial encroachment over Scotland.

      The clever bit which NEEDS to be done, is to somehow wrestle the “legal personality” of Scottish Government away from Holyrood, and see the new Independence Convention recognised as the true governing authority of Scotland. That’s the tricky bit. It may be necessary for Holyrood to be denounced as a Vichy type assembly, which broke faith with the people and sold out it’s own integrity when it arbitrarily set aside the Scottish sovereign mandate to Remain in Europe.

      It’s not exactly a comforting prospect, and a difficult path beset with difficulties, but Independence might be easier to secure without the distracting complication of a pseudo-sovereign Holyrood Assembly which is not what it appears, and which doesn’t respect the sovereign Constitution of Scotland, principally the popular Sovereignty of the Scottish people.

      It’s not the new ‘party’ that’s the tricky bit, it’s the new rule book we need to play by, and having that rule book recognised by the International Community.

      We need a workaround, but I actually think we have one. I think the answer needs to be the Independence Convention does set itself up, but rather than contest elections, instead it champions a legal test case denouncing Scotland’s unlawful and unconstitutional subjugation, and bypasses Holyrood altogether as a complete irrelevance.

      The Convention doesn’t need to “be” the Scottish Government, nor indeed have any electoral mandate, (although it surely could ‘adopt’ Scotland’s 2016 Remain mandate to help it’s case). It will suffice just have a legitimate case that can be won in a Constitutional Test Case at the UN. If the Chagos Islanders can do just that, then surely a Scottish Independence Convention can do likewise and bring forward a legitimate grievance concerning Scotland’s unlawful colonial subjugation.

      I know that sound’s hairy, but think of it this way, instead of forming a political party to contest an Election, we form a political party to contest a legal dispute, a Constitutional Dispute of UK Sovereignty and colonial subjugation recently suffered upon Scotland.

      Correct me if I’m wrong, but if the colonial subjugation of one Nation by another can be proved real and actual, and the overruling of Scotland’s legitimate sovereignty can be established beyond doubt, then the validity of Scotland’s right to dispute it’s subjugation will carry the case all through the UN process by itself, and any nagging doubts about the credentials of the Independence Assembly will be irrelevant.

      To my knowledge, the Chagos Islanders did this, but contested their case as Islanders, NOT the official Government of the Chagos Islands.

      I think a Scottish Independence Convention could do the same thing, bring forward it’s case before the UN, without ever needing to be the “Scottish Government”. It’s an unnecessary complication. Being “Scottish Citizens” might be enough.

      See what I’m getting at?

      If UK Sovereignty is “split”, riven by dispute about Scotland’s subjugation being deemed unlawful, then Scotland will have secured a retrospective Scottish Backstop on Brexit; either Brexit is halted (and it’s too late for that), or the subjugation of Scotland becomes synonymous with the destruction the Treaty of Union if and when that subjugation is deemed to be unlawful.

    35. CameronB Brodie says:

      So it appears that an ‘elite’ group within the NEC are as hostile towards democracy and international law, as the Tories. If only our political and legal systems were not components of British nationalism. Or the indy movement ‘lead’ by parochial authoritarians who place their politics above the law, which they appear to be entirely ignorant of, as well as intensely hostile.

    36. Donald Raymond says:

      This is so depressing, so near and yet so far

    37. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      That’s it settled then the SNP are officially against independence, certainly for a long time.

      While there are those who criticised this site for anti SNP rhetoric some of which was quite harsh but truthful they must now admit that they were wrong as the party they support has effectively stood down.

      I left the SNP this year but intended to continue to vote for them to keep things moving in the right direction and certainly don’t want Labour or Tories in power.

      Now I don’t think I will vote and that’s a first for me.

      The time has arrived for the formation of a new pro Independence Party. I am aware it will take time to build but with the SNP now off the park it appears to be the most appropriate thing to do. We need ONE new party for independence not 3 or 4.

      I would say thanks to the old SNP campaigners who, like myself, walked the streets putting leaflets through doors long before SNP were what they are now.

      There will be many disappointed old SNP types today I hope they find a welcome in our new Independence Party, whatever it will be called.

    38. CameronB Brodie says:

      If Scots ever want to enjoy the benefits of democracy, then we simply must hold an indy plebiscite in 2021. Further delay will most probably ensure Scots will be unable defend to their legal identity, as our legal Establishment will have enabled expansionist English nationalism to expunge Scotland’s contribution to the Natural law. WHICH WOULD BE A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY. So here’s a look at “The Intersection of Natural Rights and Positive Constitutional Law”, AS WE SIMPLY CAN’T TRUST OUR LAW OFFICERS to defend Scotland’s democracy from English fascism.

      https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2263&context=facpub

    39. James Che. says:

      I also believe that any change over of prime minister will happen in the spring time, crossing over Scottish elections, again tying our hands and vote in Holyrude, if were going to be heard and shown to be heard, we must display it across Scotland before December, before Scottish elections are (supposed) to take place,
      Let’s us all gain momentum in step 1, inspire the yes movement in Scotland for a second time, let people know they are not isolated and nothing is happening,
      Once we have achieved this, our voice for independence, we are back on track, and the hopelessness of feeling we have no voice, or direction will subside and we will inspire each other.
      Because the aim of politicians is to instil hopelessness into us, we must not let this happen.

    40. Daisy Walker says:

      The link to Pete Wishart says”

      ‘This is a mistake. We need this Damaging Debate concluded so we can Unite round a way forward’.

      Pete Wishart will NEVER EVER EVER get my vote again, and I’ve voted SNP all my adult life.’We need this DAMAGING DEBATE CONCLUDED’.

      We need Pete’s political career ended I would suggest. Luckily every time he opens his windy month that day gets nearer.

    41. Scozzie says:

      I’ve been cynical of NS and the SNP since 2017 and remember about 18 months ago saying (tongue in cheek) that the SNP would still be talking about indyref 2 in the 2025 HR election. This article has made me think that this is now a real reality.

      I stand ready to do my bit when a real push for independence occurs (even though I’m 10,000 miles away). There’s a big international community that supports independence, please be in no doubt of that. But I’m just over watching this shitshow from afar now and can’t imagine how you are all feeling.

      I hope Wingers shed more sunlight on the SNP and SNP members push hard on getting the SNP cleaned up and cleared out (although I have my doubts they can be brought back from the brink).

      In which case I hope a genuine independence party can rise from the grassroots to take on the task of achieving independence for our people.

      ‘Keep on keeping on’ Wingers. Gonna bow out for now.

    42. Alison Brown says:

      The YES Movement needs a Plan B if the SNP can’t even be bothered to debate one.
      Suggested Plan B option …..

      Alex Salmond leads one of the List Parties.
      At least 50% SNP voters vote for him on List.
      (Will the SNP put independence in their manifesto? Surely?)
      Between all pro Indy Parties we get a clear majority in votes for Independence.
      The YES Movement becomes the official opposition in Holyrood.
      We demand a debate in Parliament to discuss dissolving the 1707 Union forthwith.
      Would the SNP vote against?
      Would they?
      If we can’t get something like this to work it’s 2026!! At the earliest!!

    43. Astonished says:

      I cannot believe this . I will not tolerate it.

      By the 30/11/20 they have better changed their minds or they will not have a party.

    44. indyfan says:

      I see James Johnson has already suggested a plan to ‘save’ the union. Interestingly it talks about ‘postponing’ indyref2 rather than flat out denying it ( when Sturgeon’s popularity no longer at an all time high, Brexit less of a pressing issue etc).
      https://www.politico.eu/article/five-ways-to-save-the-united-kingdom/
      The way the SNP are headed, they won’t even need to do that, the SNP will have done it for them.

    45. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Not fingering anyone specific but there’s no point moaning like a bunch of sad auld self-pitying whingeing fannies.

      We are where we are and we can’t say we weren’t well warned by our host.

      So let’s just get on with it – ‘plot, plan, strategize, organize and mobilize’.

      Right now I suppose we’re on, ehm, let me see…aye, probably ‘plot’.

      😉

    46. Beaker says:

      @Ian Brotherhood says:
      30 October, 2020 at 2:57 pm
      “Right now I suppose we’re on, ehm, let me see…aye, probably ‘plot’.”

      I wouldn’t be surprised if some are now on the drink or drugs (or both) 🙂

      O/T – BBC Parliament channel (I know, careful) now showing the results programme from the 1974 general election. Quite a novelty watching Labour win seats in Scotland…

    47. Johnny Martin says:

      I see a lot of folk on social media giving it ‘how would you feel if the SNP didn’t get a majority and you never voted for them?’ with, of course, the idea being that the voter should feel guilty for passing up the chance of indy.

      Presuming for a moment that the leadership’s heart is in it and they do mean to pursue indy, it’s interesting that this question is never turned on them in the form of something like ‘how would you feel if you lost the trust of voters and they gave up on you, so you lost your majority and your party couldn’t pursue independence?’.

      That this is never phrased in this way is telling, imho, about who wants it more and who seems to have the responsibility to others in certain eyes, i.e. it’s up to you to be good voting fodder or ‘it’s your fault we can’t proceed!’

    48. Skip_NC says:

      This may seem a little O/T but it isn’t really.

      Here in the USA, polls are narrowing in broadly the same way they were in 2016. There is still a reasonable chance that Donald Trump will be re-elected and his chances are increasing. fiverthirtyeight.com can run all the numbers it wants, using its opaque algorithm, but polls in the battleground states (Florida, Pennsylvania, & North Carolina being the main ones, but also Wisconsin in the last few days) are beginning to see an uptick in Trump support.

      So why does this matter? With Scotland out of the EU, the USA-UK trade “deal” will be horrendous, but under a Biden presidency, it may be mitigated somewhat. The SNHS is toast either way, but we can expect Biden to tighten, for instance, food standards for Americans, which would affect standards for Scotland. However, a Trump win with his one-way isolationist agenda will unleash a catalogue of horrors upon Scotland if it remains part of the UK.

      If Trump wins, you have a matter of weeks to move towards independence before irreversible changes are wrought upon Scotland and its inhabitants – the sort of changes that will make Thatcherism look like an afternoon tea party. I have never been a fan of direct action. I came of age in the early 1980’s and have always held out the hope that elections will, in time, give us what we want. However, now I am warming to Ian Brotherhood’s idea of getting out on the streets. That should be an insane idea in the midst of a pandemic (and COVID-19 is very real) but surely it is no more insane than doing nothing until the ballot boxes are wheeled out next May.

    49. A Person says:

      Breeks is right, it’s gaslighting, like domestic abuse. “You want independence? Well, you’ll have to have Drag Queen Story Time”. Similarly, “if we don’t get a majority it’s your fault for asking questions”. Standard domestic abuser tactics.

    50. Johnny Martin says:

      Skip_NC @ 15:13pm;

      Interesting post.

      I am following from afar and have noticed this apparent narrowing.

      As you say, the SNHS might well be screwed either way.

      My take has been that Trump would probably try to participate enthusiastically in any carve-up, i.e. take some for himself.

      Biden, on the other hand, wouldn’t do so but wouldn’t do much to stop it either, i.e. some months ago he more or less promised Wall Street sorts that nothing was going to get in the way of their free-for-all party.

      I suppose we are then left in the position of hoping that ‘wing’ of the Democrats holds true to its pledge not to allow a deal if the GFA is endangered but even then there is probably nothing to stop Boris and pals selling more of the NHS off to US entities even if a trade deal is not in place.

      Worrying times.

    51. kapelmeister says:

      Sturgeon and Murrell and their selfish confederates have cheated Scots out of independence. If Salmond, Cherry or McAskill had been leading the SNP these last 6 years we would already be free.

    52. C Griffiths says:

      Isn’t the court case by Martin Keatings court case ongoing with regard to Section 30. If he wins the case, the Ukgov won’t have a leg to stand on.

    53. Lizg says:

      Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
      30 October, 2020 at 1:47

      ,* because tbh kicking lumps out of the SNP isn’t what I started this site for,*

      It’s also good to hang fire for a little while yet, because if Nicola Sturgeon somehow survives and looks like leading the SNP into the 2021 election after all, then frankly the game’s up for independence and it’ll be time to decide how to dispose of what’s in the FF now and go and find something else to do with my life.

      ……………………….

      Rev I’d take bets Plaid Cymru would bite yer hand off if you went and helped get Wales their independence.
      I can’t see the Welsh being so fucking stupid that they’d wait years with positive polling, and not go for it.
      if you can do half for them as you’ve done for us…..they’d probably not be so dammed tribal and let you do your job….. till the end.
      I would be gutted if you did go work for Wales, of course I would , but also take the view ” it’s nae loss what a freen gets ” and I’d wager that the fools who still drink the kool aid here will be the very ones who feel your absence most when the other boot drops….( probably right on Holyroods neck too.)
      Especially when BBC Scotland broadcast Welsh Independence Day Celebrations right into our wee colonial hames….

    54. kapelmeister says:

      Scoundrel though he was, at least Benedict Arnold changed into a British Army general’s uniform. The Murrells have betrayed, yet still want to lord it over us and pretend they’re for indy.

    55. Tony O'Neill says:

      Dear Alex salmond,your country needs you more than it ever has!.What say you on this clusterfuck?

    56. Helen Yates says:

      This is heartbreaking, I can’t for the life of me see how she can survive this enquiry but if she does then we know she has some great power behind her and for me that means Indy will never be delivered under the SNP, there are too many long time members and supporters who have fought for too long for indy to allow these rogues to destroy the dream and especially when we are as close to the prize as we’ll probably ever get, we must all keep the pressure on and hope we can get shot of the lot of them before the election otherwise there will be no point whatsoever in voting SNP, if she survives I’ll never vote again.

    57. Marie Clark says:

      This is so disappointing , not surprising, but disappointing.

      I will very seriously have to consider my vote in May since independence is obviously off the agenda for the SNP. FFS.

      Alex, your country needs you, come on out and gies haunners.

    58. Garrion says:

      But Stuart, as an obvious MI7/77 Brigade anti SNP mole, why are you proposing a clearly feasible path to independence that the SNP are specifically and unambiguously refusing to consider?

    59. Andy Hay says:

      You can tell it all stinks by the sheer lack of MSM coverage the enquiry is getting.

      They are extremely happy having Sturgeon around.

      The slightest wee sniff of blood had them printing garbage for weeks on end before this.

    60. Tony O'Neill says:

      I remember the time mahri black was canvassing in my street the very first time she got elected. I said to her I hope you get elected,you will be getting 7 votes from my house,I also said to her don’t let the power of that place corrupt you and see it as a seat on the fucking gravy train,just like labour did.I made it clear to her my family are voting for you to get us out of this shorty union. Well mahri,you and the snp are nothing but fucking liars!!!.You,map Tom Arthur,councillor Andy Steele can now,gtf!!!youve now lost 7 votes from my house at every future election, and probably many more Fucking ("Tractor" - Ed)s!!!?????

    61. The Dissident says:

      @Skip_NC

      I’m afraid I can see little evidence that Biden would do anything to mitigate a trade deal in our favour.

      Indeed, I might argue that Biden is much more in hock to big pharma and corporate America in general and that it could well be WORSE under his ‘leadership’.

      What I have no doubt of is that a Biden presidency will allow US foreign and military policy to fall back into the hawks that ran the show under Obama/Clinton and that many more of our young men and women will be sacrificed on the altar of American imperialism as a result.

      We need to be careful what we wish for. Once again America has the most abysmal choice to make. FWIW, I agree with you that a Trump win is looking more likely. In fact the early voting stats should be absolutely terrifying the Democrats.

    62. Brian McGrath says:

      Who would think that the party of independence wants it less than they have led us to believe.

      It’s worse than the old Labour promise to scrsp the House of Lords and yet after 100 years the place is full of them.

      Yet we’ll still have the same voices telling us we are wrong.

    63. holymacmoses says:

      Wings: One more try: YES?

    64. Robert Graham says:

      Eh off Topic Again

      Just had a wee look at the other eh blog you know the one

      Does anyone have the heart to break the News to them ,

      Sorry folks you are not on the way to the promised Land , what you are all seeing is a carefully manipulated Mirage , it’s not there honestly it isn’t there , turn back before you are All severely disappointed IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN you have been fooled can’t you see it yet.

      Oh well they were warned poor suckers, what’s worse is paying to be deceived , just like the BBC

    65. Fionan says:

      Breeks says:2.19pm

      I for one would be happy to go down that route. It is a plan, and a plan is what we need right now, whatever alphabet letter it has. It sounds a realistic plan, and along with Martin Keating’s work, could help to break the current deadlock, snp saying ‘no plan B’ and boris saying ‘no s30’. I am disappointed that no one else has suggested supporting it although most seem in agreement we need a plan. I think the alternative would be a stalemate with Yessers gradually giving up and drifting away with the dream dead in the water.

      Rev Stu, I am so angry by now, (I have never been able to afford much by way of donations to Wings but have done so with what I was able)that I would be making donation after donation each time some cash comes in, to help fund that £million. I have seen many of the people who drifted away from Wings now drifting back and I do think any fundraiser could be successful. You could always do a smaller one and see how it goes and launch successive fundraisers till the Fighting Fund reaches that £m.

      I think it will be another disaster for the Yes movement if you give up on Wings – right now I think you are we non-snp-ers main centre, or hub. As well as being just about the only reliable source of facts and info. I think that really would be the end of indy – please dont give up now!

    66. Skip_NC says:

      The Dissident, as it happens, I think a trade deal would not really be “in our favour.” I just think that a Biden administration would seek to overturn, very quickly, some of the Trump administration’s Rules. The Food & Drug Administration and US Department of Agriculture would be pivotal in this. The point here is that the Rules would be overturned for Americans so a fortunate by-product would be benefits for Scotland.

      Could those Rules be overturned in a future Republican administration? Yes, in a heartbeat. I suppose it depends on what sort of Republican party emerges in the event of a Trump loss. Will the future be one of the Trump family? Could we see someone in the mould of John Kasich emerge? Or will it be someone in between? But, for now, if Biden wins, we have four or eight years of a more moderate administration.

      As for Big Pharma, I agree with you, hence why the SNHS is toast, whoever wins. I’ll simplify that for those who don’t understand the ins and out of US politics and elections:

      It does not matter who wins the White House; without independence the Scottish National Health Service will die and die soon. Accept that and be ready to fight for it.

      The Dissident, the thinking behind my post was more on a post-Brexit trade deal, but, yes, Joe Biden will have some political debts to pay off. He has to pay off Wall Street, which is where the threat to the SNHS comes from, in my view. He needs to pay off the left in his party and I suppose that is likely to be environmental issues. He has to pay off Republican voters. Tough call, that one. I suppose it depends on the sort of Republican that votes for him, which will become clearer as the votes are counted. If he gets votes in Eastern North Carolina, for instance, does that mean he has a constituency of foreign policy hawks? If the votes are in the non-coastal West (eg, Colorado & Arizona) will have to pay off the fiscal conservatives/socially liberal types? That would be more of an internal matter, I think.

      There is much that will happen between now and Tuesday, and beyond. It is possible that we will not know the winner until December 13th or 14th.

    67. Republicofscotland says:

      I’m getting pretty pissed off at Sturgeon and her clique, kyboshing the chance of Scotland becoming independent at every turn, she’s effectively doing the bidding of the union.

      I’m actually at the point that I’m so disgusted by them that I’m seriously considering not giving them any of my two votes. If independence is going down then so should the SNP, they need to learn a cold hard lesson. I’d rather give my vote to one of the other independence minded parties at Holyrood who actually want Scottish independence.

    68. holymacmoses says:

      We surely have a goodly number of goodly people who would stand and win against the SNP?

    69. The Dissident says:

      @Skip_NC

      Thanks for the insight.

      I have a lot of trouble believing (most) of the polls. I spent a lot of time all over the US in the run up to 2016 and always thought Trump would beat Clinton but I’ve not been back since just before that election.

      I don’t get the impression that the need for change is on the agenda much and, if it was, what change would Biden actually represent? – he doesn’t seem to know himself.

      Are folk just going to stick with the devil they think they know? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised to see Trump increase his EC majority next week.

    70. Iain More says:

      I was at that game and we didn’t deserve to win it. If it wasn’t for Craig Gordon and some woeful finishing by the Norwegians we would have been humped 6 or 7 nil that day.

      The fact that Yes is now in the lead in Opinion Polls has nothing at all to do with the SNP or Nic Sturgeon. It is all down to ordinary Yes voters keeping the dream of Independence alive . With a few rare exceptions,only an SNP Party hack would say that the SNP has been selling Scots Indy the last 6 years. Of course the SNP has been purging the Party or attempting to purge of vocal proponents of Scots Indy.

    71. crisiscult says:

      I agree with some other posters about the value of Wings (not just for the work he does but the motivational style – clearly something very lacking in the SNP).

      I’m quite convinced we’re in a Quebec 1995 moment. Okay, they had the vote and lost, but there’s little doubt in my mind that they’d be where they are now whether they had the referendum or not i.e. indy is nowhere there now. Let’s go for it now. If we don’t, I’m not optimistic there will be the chance again.

      That means throwing everything at it now. In terms of action and funding (my donation), I’m prepared to do much more now than I’d have been three years ago for example.

      So my message to everyone, but especially the Rev, is like the moment they’re going to destroy the body in Shallow Grave “Come on, all or nothing”.

    72. David R says:

      If a new pro indy party is formed would have mixed feelings about the SNP being included on the voting wheels

    73. Stuart MacKay says:

      Just got my email about the virtual conference. I guess they must be hoping I’ll return. There’s one item of interest:

      An independent future for Scotland

      You’ll notice that’s not the same thing as “The future for an independent Scotland”

    74. cirsium says:

      @Skip_NC, 4.47pm
      It does not matter who wins the White House; without independence the Scottish National Health Service will die and die soon. Accept that and be ready to fight for it.

      It is not just the SNHS which will die without independence. It is the publicly owned Scottish Water and any chance of developing a vibrant renewables industry.

    75. CameronB Brodie says:

      “It does not matter who wins the White House; without independence the Scottish National Health Service will die and die soon. Accept that and be ready to fight for it.”

      The Tories are ideologically opposed to the concept of social justice, as their primary psychological motivations are the protection of privilege and an intolerance of difference. This is extremely dangerous, as they are also opposed to international human rights law and the precautionary principle. So they are ideologically opposed to scientifically informed ethical rationalism, and are instead intent on liberating the interests of capital from the constraints imposed by human rights.

      So Scotland really needs to up the game in defense of our health system, as it has no future in Brexitania. Which means our legal Establishment’s determination to outlaw a respect for biological reality, is simply working in the opposite direction. In fact, the GRA agenda and Hate Crime bill simply support English fascism. So here’s a look at “The role of metacognition in human social interactions”, AS WE SIMPLY CAN’T TRUST OUR LEGAL OFFICERS to protect our human rights.

      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3385688/

    76. Skip_NC says:

      That is a good question, The Dissident. I’ve just taken a look at the early voting stats in my county. Now, this must be taken with a large dose of salt. There are twenty early voting sites and, during the early voting period, any voter can got to any voting site.

      The heaviest turnout has generally been in the areas where Donald Trump did surprisingly well four years ago. My county (Wake, NC) generally votes 60%+ Democratic in county-wide elections, but if Trump can mitigate his losses in Wake County (2nd largest of 100 counties by some way), it will help him in the statewide vote to secure North Carolina’s 15 Electoral College votes.

      I ran a few different scenarios on fivethirtyeight.com yesterday and most plausible results point towards the winner in Pennsylvania also winning the Electoral College. If Biden wins the Great Lakes states and squeezes wins in Florida and NC, he will probably win enough without Pennsylvania. Here is one scenario that shows that: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-biden-election-map/#WI:0,MN:0,MI:0,NC:0,MT:1,ID:1,WY:1,UT:1,CO:1,NM:0,AZ:0,ND:1,SD:1,NE:1,KS:1,OK:1,IA:1,MO:1,AR:1,TN:1,AL:1,LA:1,KY:1,IN:1,OH:1,WV:1,MS:1,TX:1,IL:0,SC:1,N1:1,N3:1,N2:0,M1:0,ME:0,NV:0,NH:0,NY:0,AK:1,HI:0,VT:0,MA:0,CT:0,RI:0,NJ:0,VA:0,MD:0,GA:1,WA:0,OR:0,CA:0,FL:0,M2:1,DC:0,DE:0

      So if Trump wins Pennsylvania, all he needs to do is keep Florida and North Carolina in his column and he wins.

      I do hope the link works.

    77. Mac says:

      I saw some youtube clip or something recently of an irate builder and his work lads smashing a new garden fence and patio to smithereens while shouting about how the lady who asked them to do all the work had never paid them, cheating all these lads out of their wages.

      They reduced everything they had built but not been paid for to splinters and rubble in minutes. No view to salvaging the materials… just making sure the rat bitch who screwed them was screwed as well.

      Obviously it would be better to save the SNP if we can but if we can’t then I am of the same view as Mr Builder.

      I’d rather fucking destroy the SNP than just hand it over to these woke rat bawbags.

      If we are going to give up on the SNP then we have to deploy the Samson option and bring the house down on their rat heads as well. Fuck em.

    78. Ian Brotherhood says:

      I don’t understand how any Scot – let alone a member of the SNP – can interpret this as anything other than a kick in the teeth.

      I’m sure there are Scottish Tories out there who will be quietly astonished and embarrassed for their SNP colleagues in the Holyrood and Westminster parliaments.

      It is an affront to anyone who has any respect for ‘democracy’, no matter what sector of the spectrum they happen to occupy.

      Shame, shame, shame…

      🙁

    79. Republicofscotland says:

      The only chink of light I can see is if Sturgeon is found guilty of breaking the ministerial code and she has to stand down, taking that other treacherous bastard of a husband with her in the process prior to next years elections. That might leave a gap in which a independence minded body could be slipped into.

    80. Elmac says:

      Republicofscotland @ 4.55pm

      Don’t consider it – do it! Most of us on here have had their eyes opened to the fact that the current SNP hierarchy have no intention whatsoever of pushing independence. To vote for them is worse than a wasted vote. I will vote for the best alternative party that actually wants independence on both the list and constituency vote. If none are available I will vote for someone standing as an independent who I think will do his best for his constituency. Of course everything changes if Sturgeon, Murrell and their acolytes are cleaned out of the party, but there are too many sheep in the membership to make that happen any time soon and we are fast running out of time. I am resigned to the fact that the only way forward is to start again with a real independence party.

      This is not just about votes. The Sturgeon cabal are vampires on the back of the membership. They go through money like there is no tomorrow and they appear to have already illegally blown over £1/2 million of money donated for the sole purpose of financing the next referendum campaign. The quickest way to being rid of them is to cut off the flow of money. I assume, like me, you no longer pay membership subs, donate, or participate in fund raisers for them. We need to get that message out to everyone else with a grain of common sense. Much better if these funds went to an entity prepared to use them for the purpose they were raised.

    81. Graeme says:

      At the expense of sounding smart and believe me I’m not but this comes as no surprise to me, the tipping point for me was when Nicola said on the Andrew Marr show that independence is off the table until Covid is sorted out and it’s economic legacy, That’s the key words here “and it’s economic legacy” that was Nicola telling us independence isn’t gonna happen in the foreseeable future she didn’t use these words for nothing because the economic legacy can be 10 years, 20 years, 30 years whatever she wants it to be.
      If we want independence we’re gonna have to take it out of the politicians hands

    82. Mac says:

      And just to throw another metaphor or two in there.. if we are hoping for new political shoots coming up to replace the SNP then the best thing that could happen is a devastating forest fire.

      The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire
      The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire
      The roof, the roof, the roof is on fire
      We don’t need no water, let the motherfucker burn
      Burn motherfucker, burn.

    83. indyfan says:

      c griffiths says @3.22
      Isn’t the court case by Martin Keatings court case ongoing with regard to Section 30. If he wins the case, the Ukgov won’t have a leg to stand on.

      Looks like the Scotgov is actively fighting the Scottish people in this case. Scotgov lawyers working with Lord Advocate.

    84. Tartanpigsy says:

      Sole aim for now has to be Sturgeon out ASAP.
      It can’t wait

    85. Mike d says:

      Breeks 2.19pm. Seems like as good a way as any to go, we’ve got to do something.

    86. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Graeme (6.01) –

      ‘If we want independence we’re gonna have to take it out of the politicians hands.’

      This times a bazillion.

      And there are all sorts of ways of doing that, but we have to start right now.

      This is where the Yes movement will be tested – we have the numbers, aye, but this is when we find out what depth and quality we have. Broadcasters, bloggers, artists of all sorts, analysts, legal beagles, ex-Forces and intelligence service-folk who know how the State ‘thinks’. Many many more of all since 2014. And we have the ‘economic case’ on our side too if that poll is even remotely accurate.

      The only thing we don’t have is the actual SNP.

      Well, quelle fuckin dommage – if the SNP doesn’t have anyone left who actually believes in indy and is prepared to confront the leadership, to hell with them. We don’t need people like that because, in truth, they do not represent any of us. Pete Wishart doesn’t represent me and the people I’ve come to know over the past decade. Neither does Alyn Smith or Nicola Sturgeon or Peter Murrell or Rhiannon Spear. And their weird supporters don’t represent me either – the Mhairi Hunters and Cameron Archibalds and Doug Daniels have nailed their colours to a very wobbly mast and we won’t forget the damage they’ve already done (especially the vicious targeting of good people like Grousebeater) and continue to do to the reputation of the movement generally.

      I don’t care if it sounds like an exaggeration to say that the struggle is now ‘existential’ but for a lot of us it might as well be. (If Stu’s forecast is right then I’ll be 68 before we get another shot at it.) So, fuck it – Brexit is the horrible backdrop for the last chance a lot of us have, so we’re as well just throwing everything we have at it.

    87. Sylvia says:

      Replying to @Skip_NC, 4.47pm

      America already has claws into the Scottish NHS in the form of (IHI) Institute for Healthcare Improvement, 53 State St 19th floor, Boston, MA 02109, United States. They first started dealing with the SG in 2007 and more recently appointed to reform the SNHS. Between 2012-2018 they earned £2,243,921.43 from the SG. https://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/28877.aspx?SearchType=Advance&ReferenceNumbers=S5W-20725&ResultsPerPage=10

      IHI also have a Fellowship programme of which our National Clinical Director, Jason Leitch of the Scottish Government participated in. “He was a 2005-06 Quality Improvement Fellow at the Institute for Healthcare Improvement (IHI), in Boston, sponsored by the Health Foundation, he is now a Senior Fellow at the IHI”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Leitch#Education

      In 2013 they recruited Derek Feeley a Civil Servant who was the Chief Executive of NHS Scotland, he joined as Executive Vice President on September 1, 2013.
      https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10001522/Scottish-NHS-chief-executive-resigns.html

      He later became President and CEO of IHI. Here he is sending best wishes to ELFT at the Annual QI Conference on 22 March 2016. https://qi.elft.nhs.uk/resource/message-from-derek-feeley-2/

      He returned to the UK this year and joined ELFT as an advisor to the Board and executive. https://www.elft.nhs.uk/News/ELFT-Scoop-Quality-Improvement-Leader-as-Advisor-
      In addition he has also been appointed by the Scottish Government, to chair an Independent Review of Adult Social Care. https://www.gov.scot/groups/independent-review-of-adult-social-care/

      The cofounder of IHI is Don Berwick ( a former adviser to Barack Obama) who appears to have “ a finger in every pie”. “Recently I was delighted to be invited by Healthcare Improvement Scotland to work with some of the most senior leaders across all the NHS boards in Scotland as part of a master class on leading for improvement”. https://blog.healthcareimprovementscotland.org/2017/04/06/professor-don-berwick/

      He is also involved with NHS England https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/about-us/whos-who/don-berwick

      He is also a director of LumiraDx who has recently announced they will introduce a Coronavirus testing service returning results from swab tests in only 12 minutes, costing £120.00. https://www.boots-uk.com/media-centre/press-releases/new-covid-19-testing-service-now-available-in-boots-uk-stores/

      The CEO of LumiraDx is Ron Zwanziger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Zwanziger He founded Alere in Waltham, Massachusetts. LumiraDx US addess 221 Crescent St, Waltham, MA 02453, this is 12 miles from IHI in Boston.

      Boots the Chemist is now American owned, Walgreens Boots Alliance, Inc. is an American holding company headquartered in Deerfield, Illinois. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walgreens_Boots_Alliance

      The Chief Executive of NHS England is Simon Stevens, formerly corporate Executive Vice President and President of the United Health Group Minnetonka, Minnesota. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Stevens_(healthcare_manager)#UnitedHealth

      All well connected!

    88. Effijy says:

      Every dirty trick in and out of the book will be used by
      Both parliaments to ensure Martin Keatings court case fails.

      I contributed to the fund as I’m desperate to take in the political corruption
      that abounds in this country.

      Armed with bribery, promotion, Betty Gongs and physical violence if necessary,
      Nothing is going to stop politicians stealing Scotland’s resources and right to self determination.

      We have already seen the law being broken by the law on several recent occasions without redress.

    89. Skip_NC says:

      Cirsium @ 5:38pm, I had forgotten about the public water supply. That is, indeed, a concern. When I moved here at first, I lived in New Jersey and the municipal water supplier had sold out to a commercial business. The water cost a fortune. It was almost as cheap to buy bottled water. Here in North Carolina, water is supplied by the city to its residents (still metered though) and to most of the municipalities. The price of a gallon is not bad, but they have added “environmental” fees on top over the years. That’s what happens when you live in a “liberal” city with “I’m alright Jack” upper middle class chinless wonders running the council and subordinate boards. Does that sound familiar?

      I have had water directly from the tap a couple of times – literally. We have always used a filter, either through a line in the fridge or by filling a jug with a filter.

    90. Mike d says:

      Graeme 6.01pm aye I noticed boris didn’t take Brexit off the table till covid and its financial aftermath is sorted out.Quite frankly as lothianlad lad has repeatedly said. These barstewards are ‘bought and have sold.

    91. Andy White says:

      Agree. The repurposing of the SNP, in the wake of public antipathy to the gender and hate crime side projects, and Independence rigor mortis, will take 10 years. The golden hour is passing. In the meantime England’s Brexit project will eviscerate our economy, and that failing state will agressively seek to neuter our parliament, SNHS and other national institutions. Thereafter, we will be back to 1990, in a worse position, but at least will have a new generation of SNP politicians, who, like Alex, will never fail to argue for the benefits of Independence in every speech and interview they make.

    92. Mike d says:

      Effijy 6.28. It’s a guarantee that Martin Keating’s court case will fail. C’mon unionist court. His next step should be the ECHR or will that be too late?

    93. Daisy Walker says:

      Rev,

      It makes sense to hold off on a crowdfunded until after the Dugdale settlement – wouldn’t want her to get greedy….

      But in all honesty go for it. The Wee Blue Book did more to co-ordinate and educate the Yes Movement than anything the SNP produced.

      The SNP lost votes aplenty in 2017 GE – because all the lent votes, were not convinced of their commitment to Indy.

      They were brought round since then with promises of one more Mandate, just one more Mandate…. and because Brexit B Day was still away’s away. Well that games a bogey. And Covid is pissing people off now, and they are fed up with St Niclas’ daily sermon.

      If your campaign put a WBB2 through every door, educated the voters on the dangers of Brexit, and the need for the (Bath Charter) plebiscite Holyrood Election… local yessers can identify and ready the candidates (some of whom will be SNPers) for each area – for votes 1 and 2 if needs be.

      Billlboards in every town, bumperstickers on every yessers car….

      And if they don’t, well you will have more than done your bit, and no-one will be able to say they didn’t know what they were ‘failing’ to vote for.

      Two things stick out…

      The Kirkcaldy candidate in the GE …Neil who’s second name I can never remember… dumped by the SNP who told their members NOT to vote for him – well he won and he did so because those same SNP members knew what was right and what was not.

      And the nature of the Holyrood election itself. In peoples’ hearts it has been situated in importance, somewhere between council elections and GE elections, and the 2 votes has always enabled them to protest on the second vote, or give a local ‘good guy’ a chance.

      Of course there is always the argument that local people could not find a candidate on their own – not without a party to do proper, experienced vetting…. like wot that SNP do… Oh… If we do it we might just select someone not connected to Yousaf!!!

      How about you do the crowdfunder – on your terms – and see how well it goes. If it fizzles out to nothing I’ll agree with you, but just this once, I think your reading it wrong.

    94. Daisy Walker says:

      Rev,

      I’ve sent you a link to the video Graeme and I have done, Can you let me know as soon as possible if you’re not interested in it, so I can try elsewhere.

      Many thanks.

    95. This true story sums up the obsession of waiting for Sec30 while other options are made available,

      `As flood waters rose, a man was on the porch of his house and prayed that God would save him from drowning in the flood. Just then, another man came by in a row boat. The man in the boat invited the other man to get in, and he’d save him. The man on the porch said, “No, thanks, I’m waiting for God to rescue me.”

      The water kept rising and the man had to go to the second floor of his house. As he looked out the window, he saw a man in a motor boat come by. The man in the boat invited him to get in because he had come to rescue him. The man in the house said, “No, thanks, I’m waiting for God to rescue me.”

      The waters kept on rising. Soon the man was forced to climb up onto his roof. A helicopter flew by, and a man inside lowered a rope and shouted down for the stranded man to climb up the rope.

      But the man still wouldn’t get in. He just said, “No, thanks, I’m waiting for God to rescue me.”

      Well, eventually, the flood waters rose above the house rooftop, and the man drowned.

      When he got to Heaven, he asked God why He didn’t rescue him from drowning when he had had perfect faith.

      “What more do you want from me?” asked God. “I sent you two boats and a helicopter.” `

      true story.

    96. Mac says:

      If all the current SNP voters, who felt more loyalty to Alex Salmond (and the type of SNP he fostered and led) than this ‘knot of vipers’ (that Nicola has meticulously replaced it with), did not vote… then I doubt even Nicola’s seat would be safe.

      They seized power in a slow motion silent coup. They do not have grassroots support at all at SNP voter level. They are relying on deception at every step.

      Don’t vote for them 1 nor 2. It is that simple. In one cycle we can smash them.

      The Joanna Cherry’s of the movement would soon resurface. The Rhiannon Spears’, the Murrells etc would not.

      They are not fighting by the Marquess of Queensberry Rules in case you have not noticed… so nor should we.

    97. Daisy Walker says:

      Anyone know when the candidates selected for SNP will be announced?

    98. Stuart MacKay says:

      G H Graham, thanks for the Sid Vicious video.

      In return, once the Woke are in charge, y’all will have to sing this, with enthusiasm, every morning before heading off to do your part to recover the economy from covid,

    99. Stuart MacKay says:
    100. Stuart MacKay says:

      Bah, the Rev is filtering out links from vimeo.

    101. Bob Mack says:

      @Stu,

      Don’t ever give up Stu. You may have lost many donors to the site, but as time goes by,and more and more Indy supporters even if they are SNP membership diehards come to realise they have been sold a pup they will return to to this site to tell the whole unvarnished truth.

      They cannot exist in a diet of “next year” or “secret plans” indefinitely.
      They will one day open their eyes again to unpleasant facts.

      I have been involved with your site for years and more often than not you analyse situations really well.

      I believe the SNP cries of Independence are an empty vessel.

      They have no desire to achieve that goal in spite of their protestations. Actions speak louder than words, and yet opportunity after opportunity is ignored without explanation.
      Brexit,Internal Market Bill,Scottish Sovereignty, all passed up for the elusive Section 30 which we know will never happen.

      Time is in particular your friend Stu. It is the enemy of those with false promises and hopes. Stay strong.

    102. ben madigan says:

      Dec 31st will be a big deadline. I think some action should be taken before that, if possible, so as to stop/delay cutting the last ties with the EU and, as is becoming clear, hopes for Independence and indeed the continuing existence of Scotland as we know it.

      Joanna Cherry has not, as someone above remarked, seemed keen on moving legally to challenge the Treaty of Union or defend Scotland’s right to independence (see Breeks’ suggestions over the past months). But she’s not the only top level QC in Scotland.

      Perhaps the Rev Stu could spend a little of Wings’ fighting fund on consulting and getting an opinion from another one. Maybe the people who are handling Martin Keating’s case?

      We would at least know whether or not a legal challenge is feasible and if so, how it could be done. And decide in consequence

    103. Dan says:

      @ Daisy

      I understand the SNP MSP candidate selection ballot closes on Nov 6th.

      Watershed moment.

    104. Ron Maclean says:

      For the moment I would caution against individuals putting themselves forward into positions of conspicuous activism. Some who offended a vindictive establishment have already been singled out for retribution. First of all we should demand that those sitting comfortably on the proceeds of their alleged allegiance to independence rise up and find the energy to publicise and fight the corruption and nepotism within the movement. It would help if a credible figure would come forward and give a lead. That won’t include anyone on the way to Windsor Castle.

      Kenny MacAskill has been making encouraging noises for some time. Angus Brendan MacNeil and Chris McEleny have been thwarted again and might decide, along with others, to come into the light. Craig Murray might win the Presidency. Martin Keatings might win his case. Nicola Sturgeon might be brought down. Too many mights maybe but all is not yet lost.

      Please don’t give up.

    105. Bob Mack says:

      Joanna Cherry cannot be expected to lead ahead of the Government she serves. Indeed where was the majority of the SNP when she was fighting the cause of prerogation?

      She stood almost alone with a few others including an English QC and gave a bad look to Nicola and the SNP. Probably that’s one of the reasons they want her out.

      Me Cherry has done more than another SNP member to date ,unless you know otherwise.

      She is tied to this bloody useless party and that’s why she has not done far more.

    106. ScottieDog says:

      @ben madigan
      I’ve been thinking the same about brexit day. I’m hoping against hope that in the event of a hard brexit and a further request for a referendum is refused then there will be a a change of pace and direction by the SNP. I can only think that the reason for sticking to plan A (for the time being) is to send a message to the international community that this is/was the only game in town. Hard brexit plus denial of s30 then it’s plebiscite election (unless by the end of January for example, the U.K. govt grants an indyref in 2021)

    107. TJenny says:

      I have a wee flutter of hope that we will see Duncan Hamilton QC, coming to the fore in our fight for indy. He gave a really inspiring speech the video you can find on Grouse Beater’s tl.

      I have often wondered why he disapperaed from the fray in lead up to 2014, but take hope from the fact that he was in court on Alex’s side.

      Now there’s a man we coud all get behind.

      Is he the leader we’ve ben waiting for? Aided and abetted by oor Stu, Alex, JC,etc?

      Oh, how I hope so.

    108. ben madigan says:

      @Bob mack
      I agree Joanna Cherry is highly intelligent and competent and has done an awful lot. As you said, her party membership maybe precludes her from doing more. OK Fine.

      So if the Rev Stu decides to ask for a legal opinion, he should opt for a legal eagle who is not tied to any party and will (hopefully) make an impartial call on the feasibility of a legal challenge, one way or the other.

      If it’s not feasible we can say “Fine. That road’s blocked. Stop talking through your hat, Breeks”

      If it is feasible we can say “Fine. That road is open. It’s probably an uphill task. Are we up for it or not? And if so, how do we set about it”

    109. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Ron Maclean (7.16) –

      Hear hear.

      Dangerous times. What’s happening to Julian Assange is nightmare material, and we can be sure the same forces who enabled the persecution of Craig Murray, Alex Salmond and Mark Hirst will take great interest in anyone making moves to unseat the FM and her coterie.

      No-one reasonable expects Alex Salmond to make some kind of triumphant return through the streets of Edinburgh, but it’s hard not to imagine that some – and they’re right to remain nameless for now, for the reasons you allude to – are ready and willing to put themselves forward when the time comes.

      There was a rumour, around a fortnight ago, that some WM-based SNP people were discussing a return to Scotland because they were so appalled at the behaviour of the SNP NEC. I don’t know if that’s true and I can’t even remember where I heard it but if there’s any factual basis to it then the very same people must now be as perplexed as they are angry – why the fuck should they traipse away down there every week, to take dog’s abuse from a HOC that clearly despises them, knowing that back home, the ‘mother’ party is kicking anything vaguely indy-shaped a decade hence? FFS, why wouldn’t they just want to chuck it?

      I don’t buy the cynical line that they’re all in it for the money. Most, perhaps, but all? No way. And those who aren’t must – surely?! – be considering options.

    110. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Not sure if anyone,’s posted already

      Get on it.

      twitter.com/joannaccherry/status/1322232859906789376

    111. ben madigan says:

      @ Scottie Dog
      What worries me is
      1) AFAIK the SNP does not want any discussion of Plans B,C etc at Conference so Scotland will be left with only the Section 30 Plan A.Which seems to prevent the type of action you are hoping for.
      2) What Westminster is going to do after Jan 1st to “take back control” and hobble the SG’s powers, being effectively unrestrained in its power and scope of action
      3) the effects of a very thin or no Deal Brexit on Scotland

      If a legal challenge is feasible, it might provide some protection against these events, as Breeks has often argued.
      It might not.
      That’s why I think we need to know, one way or the other.

    112. Bob Mack says:

      @Ben Madigan,

      Only two weeks ago she told the Commons that the Internal Market Bill was breaking the law and the Treaty of Union.

      She called for the NEC of the SNP to be disbanded.

      This lady is on our side. I am certain she would ake action if she had the funding just as she did with prerogation.

      Funding a court case like this would run to probably a half to a million quid. Joanna may not be that wealthy.

      Why are the SNP not challenging this illegality which breaks the Scotland Act and other Statutes? Money?

      At least she tries to put her head above the parapet which I’m sure doesn’t go down well with HQ.

      What can we do? Contribute if asked. We could also selectively vote for SNP candidates who share our aims and ignore those who do not. Defeat might be an issue, but as Stu says, it might be well into 2030 before we get another opportunity to vote for Indy.

    113. Daisy Walker says:

      OT – Forgive my ignorance about the hierarchy of the SNP

      The position of President of the SNP – is that a new one – who is ‘president’ just now.

      Glad to see Craig Murray applying and highlighting it at the same time… but Michael Russell – did he not stand down from Holyrood to retire? Thus making way for mszzz Speirs…

      Why, if he wanted to stay in politics, and not retire, is he standing for ‘President’?

      What is the wage packet attached? I’m going to take a REALLY big guess here, and suggest it is not any less than the current wage of an MSP. Given the current state of ANP finances – can they / we afford it?

      If it is a new position? Being created… is that wise, it looks awfully like they will need to locate !/2£ to repay shortly.

      Do the employment terms and conditions include legal cover, including indemnity for fines?…. asking for a friend.

    114. CameronB Brodie says:

      There is ample public law with which to effectively defend Scotland’s democracy with, though our legal Establishment have pledged allegiance to the Crown in Parliament, which considers itself above international law. So are not particularly interested in supporting Scotland’s democracy, only their ideological outlook. Which appears to be compatible with English Torydum and the far-right.

      http://cilj.co.uk/2020/07/15/right-to-health-an-enforceable-international-obligation/

    115. Jeremy says:

      @Scot Finlayson (6.50)

      The story about the man in the flood… I do remember that Ronnie Corbett also told a very similar one to that in one of his chair monologues in The Two Ronnies.

    116. Ron Maclean says:

      The President is a National Office Bearer. National Office Bearers do not receive remuneration for their work. The President is an honorary position in the Party, elected in recognition of distinguished service to the Party.

      The National Executive Committee is composed of –
      (a) the National Office Bearers;…

      Answering for a friend.

    117. A Person says:

      So for my sins I had a look on Twitter.

      Kevin McKenna shared Joanna Cherry’s post disagreeing with this terrible decision.

      In the comments below are lots of despairing Yessers who know what’s going on, combined with quite a few gloating unionists.

      But about the same number of responses are from people who have names like “Scottish Sovereign Champion” but then somewhat undermine their self-image by coming out with things like:

      -“unbelievable all you Wingers attacking Nicola, she has a secret plan that she can’t discuss in public in case Michael Gove hears her”
      -“playing the long game, waiting to increase support for indy after a no-deal Brexit”*
      -“the EU will make sure we get independence” [this one was new to me and involves a remarkable lack of agency]
      -and of course, our old favourite “after Nicola wins a landslide next year Boris will give her a referendum”.

      It’s like None-So-Blind-As-Don’t-Wish-To-See Bingo!

      If this has been co-ordinated by MI5 they will be laughing their heads off. And in a way it is almost funny the level of delusion and cult-like adherence to The Leader.

      But I have a feeling that it is a more straightforward, but no less sinister, case of “power corrupts”.

      *= your reminder that indyref1 was called with Yes at 28%.

    118. McDuff says:

      I still can`t understand why the non Sturgeonite SNP MSP/MP`S are not vigorously opposing the FM for turning her back on independence. What`s wrong with them, Is it all about the money and their perks and cosy jobs.
      I am screaming with anger at this wholesale betrayal of our country and its people.

    119. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ron McLean

      Thank you for your reply. As I said at the start – forgive my ignorance… 1/2£ unaccounted for funds make me a tad cynical and suspicious.

      I’ll be very relieved if Mike Russell is one of the good guys in all this.

    120. J Galt says:

      Stuart MacKay@7.08pm

      Laibach!

      Have you seen their “Anglia” vid?

      They have the Lady to a T!

    121. Habib Steele says:

      Could some YES organisation call a National Constitutional Convention, which could agree to an organise a plebiscite? The question should be something like, “Do you require the Scottish Parliament to pass an act withdrawing from the Treaty of Union with England?” The answer would be a simple YES or NO.

      It seems to be that Craig Murray would be an ideal Chair of that Convention.

      If that does not happen, it seems to me that we need a new Independence Party to field Candidates for constituencies and the List.

    122. Kenny says:

      Stu: “if Nicola Sturgeon somehow survives and looks like leading the SNP into the 2021 election after all, then frankly the game’s up for independence”

      No, au contraire! It is more vital than ever to fight for independence, to remove Sturgeon and Holyrood (a unionist one-chamber assembly and not the real Scottish Parliament) from our land.

      It is not independence anyway. It is “re-independence”.

    123. willie says:

      I think Rev a crowd funder would be very successful.

      The information that you have forensically disseminated has been invaluable. Your platform moved the independence momentum hugely back in 2014. We didn’t win, but we came close.

      No one ever said this was going to be easy. For whatever reason, and there will be many, the SNP has been rotted from within. Funny that isn’t it. How many other independence movements trying to escape the British have met with that.

      But the SNP is not the independence movement. We are bigger than that. It is a tragedy that the SNP have gone the way that they have but there are dark forces about.

      Your web traffic is up. So what does that tell you Rev Stu.

      Keep it up, your contributions have and are delivering. We are all in this together and you are delivering your part in helping us all try to get to where we need to be.

      And if we need to destroy this rotting corpse of a once great party then we will. But I think, I suspect, I hope we will cut out the cancer, and get it back to health.

      A lot can happen between now and May 2021. You might even get canonised or beautified before then Rev Stu for your role as an Eminence Grise.

      Yes, I like the sound of that – His Eminence the Rev Campbell!

    124. Saffron Robe says:

      If ever there was an idol with feet of clay then Nicola Sturgeon is it. However, she is being held in place by powerful forces and there is no guarantee that she can be removed by the end of the year. It is also clear that she is determined to make sure that the irrevocable breaking of the Treaty of Union goes unchallenged, because both she and Boris Johnson know that the longer it goes unchallenged, the harder it becomes to challenge at a later date.

      I would suggest that at the end of December some kind of public declaration is made by a group of leading pro-independence figures on behalf of the people of Scotland that we are aware that the Treaty of Union has been irretrievably broken and that we no longer recognise the legitimacy of Westminster’s rule. Our independence would be ratified in May’s elections via the same route or similar as detailed by Stuart.

    125. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Imagine Scots twenty years hence, trying to make sense of what’s happening right now?

      You never know – someone as gifted as Gil Scott-Heron could come up with something like this…

      ‘What we getting ready to deal on is the Sturgeongate Blues…’

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeVtR8wVkY4&ab_channel=SoulStylistJukeBox

    126. twathater says:

      LADIES and GENTLEMEN I assume you are all as sickened as I am with NS’s damp squib , her duplicity and her obviously taking the SNP VOTES for granted, If you REALLY want to show her that WE are RAGING and we will NOT accept her BLACKMAIL and FALSE PROMISES WE have to do something collectively and within covid restrictions

      I am AGAIN punting my declaration idea, if Rev Stu is agreeable he could put up a PDF form that we could all download, scan and send to Nicola Sturgeon our MP’s and MSP’s, we can send the scanned documents via email to all SNP MP’s and MSP’s and FLOOD their inboxes or we can post the declarations to them, we have to do SOMETHING and it may gain the attention of the media (or not)

    127. CameronB Brodie says:

      Without moral content, legal diktat contains zero legal force, only authoritarian force. Such law is simply “excessive legal instrumentalism”, which is pretty much the sort of legal practice that enabled the Nazis to do their thing.

      Unfortunately for Scotland, ‘our’ Lord Advocate apparently supports similar legal practice, as he apparently rejects the Natural law. So he is unable to respect the Moral law. Subsequently, he’s not going to able defend Scotland’s democracy, as his legal practice actively undermines the foundations of international law. So here’s a look at “How an Instrumental View of Law Corrodes the Rule of Law”.

      http://via.library.depaul.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1304&context=law-review

    128. kapelmeister says:

      The post of President of the SNP may be largely honorific but the upcoming contest for it between Craig Murray and the Sturgeon approved candidate Mike Russell has assumed a symbolic significance of vast proportions.

    129. Terry says:

      I said both times to fight the Dugdale keech. Hindsight is great as on reflection they were probably after distracting Wings and bleeding your funds. That’s also been their tactic with Alex.

      Anyway YOU CANT STOP! We need you. And Alex too.

      Joanna cherry, Philippa, Angus, kenny, Chris. You guys rock but another request – Get the other fearties to speak up!!!

      We haven’t come this far to let the unionists and the toom tabard murrells win.

      Scotland free or a desert.

    130. twathater says:

      MY DECLARATION

      As a dedicated supporter of independence for Scotland I hereby declare that I Bob Scot of 1 Independence Way, Scotland, will NOT VOTE FOR THE SNP in the forthcoming Holyrood Election or any further elections until and unless the leader of the SNP currently Nicola Sturgeon states categorically, unequivocally and publicly that the forthcoming Holyrood election will be a plebiscite, that if a majority of independence supporting parties are elected to Holyrood that would constitute a demand for a declaration of independence and will immediately dissolve the union of the UK,Which will require negotiation for the separation of assets and interests

      That is a rough draft subject to amendment BUT WE have to let these c++ts know that we are serious without violence

    131. Clydebuilt says:

      “(Refusing to consider Plan B means no chance of a viable democratic trigger until the 2026 election, “

      Is that refusing to consider Plan B

      Publicly, or not at all?

    132. Ottomanboi says:

      Not about Johnson, Brexit, EU, Covid-19, England….but Scotland, a nation with a distinct identity, a nation that has made a world contribution well above its weight and is ‘inferior’ to none.
      That ought to be enough for Scots, with any sense of self-worth, to end the subservience of the Union.

    133. Elmac says:

      Rev.

      Am a bit concerned by some references to the need for you to keep going. I was not aware you were contemplating otherwise unless I missed something. Would like to put in my pennysworth – please do not underestimate what you have achieved and how important you are to the independence cause.

      Currently there is clearly a split in the Yes ranks with many old names preferring to comment on the WGD site. They are the gradualist nicey nicey lot who refuse to accept reality and are convinced that the current SNP leadership want independence and that the leopard (Bojo) will change his spots if we ask him often enough. People do not like facing hard truths but the day of reckoning is fast approaching when even the most gullible of them will see the light. Let’s hope it is not too late. In the meantime please keep telling it like it is. You have a large following who will be happy to contribute to any fund raisers, myself included.

    134. CameronB Brodie says:

      Btw, I though it unnecessary to point out that Westminster’s cultural hostility towards the Natural law, along with the institutional racism it accommodate, has led the ‘British’ Parliament to write Scotland out of history. How very ‘Nazi’ of the ‘Mother of Parliaments’.

    135. susanXX says:

      The SNP seem to have slipped into the ‘party of devolution’ mould, happy to strut upon the stage of minor importance as long as they seal their credentials with woke policies. They can get stuffed!

    136. holymacmoses says:

      It’s time for people to realise that SNP is now an official WM Unionist party along with Labour, Libdem and Conservative. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Independence and like the other three the parties, the name is a meaningless irrelevance.

    137. holymacmoses says:

      Ironically. I do think it’s possible that Nicola Sturgeon has brought up the ‘no plan B thing’ in order to divert attention from her problems in the Alex Salmond betrayal . I think she looks after herself (and her husband) first and foremost and is employing some misdirection to take the heat off while she gets a few more lies put together.

    138. Effijy says:

      This could be BIG?

      Faye Brown
      Friday 30 Oct 2020 10:02 pm
      Boris Johnson is reportedly preparing to impose a national lockdown from as early as Wednesday amid concerns hospitals across England are being overwhelmed.

      The restrictions could see everything except nurseries, schools, universities and non-essential shops close until Dec 1, according to The Times.

      The newspaper reports that the PM held a meeting this afternoon with senior cabinet ministers Rishi Sunak, Michael Gove and Matt Hancock.

    139. AYRSHIRE ROB says:

      Just when you thought Trump couldn’t get any worse-he dumfounds you.

      Trump

      “You know the doctors get more money for declaring a death from covid.” What a disgusting human this privileged bastard is.

      Over a 1000+ doctors and nurses have died in US helping to care for people and this bastard insults their sacrifice.

      Horrible person

    140. Daisy Walker says:

      One legal action that needs to take place before 31/12/20 is a qualified lawyer (that is all that is required) registers with the EU a legal complaint against the Internal Markets Bill within the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement.

      That complaint can be legitimately lodged with them by any qualified lawyer… (and i seriously doubt that the EU didn’t intend that;)

      Once lodged the hearing takes place, under European Court of Justice laws, with and EU Judge and has 4 years (from time of registering) to complete….

      Not to put to fine a point on it, it puts a bloody great spoke in the wheels of the British Empires plans…

      Deeply pathetic, that it is me, instead of one of our highly qualified elected reps who has picked up on this little gem…. My one hope is that they’re keeping it close to their chests and will lodge it late December.

      They will forgive me if I’m not to fucking trusting in that policy. We should crowd fund it soon and push for it now.

    141. Daisy Walker says:

      ‘Effijy says:
      30 October, 2020 at 11:12 pm
      This could be BIG?

      Faye Brown
      Friday 30 Oct 2020 10:02 pm
      Boris Johnson is reportedly preparing to impose a national lockdown from as early as Wednesday amid concerns hospitals across England are being overwhelmed.

      The restrictions could see everything except nurseries, schools, universities and non-essential shops close until Dec 1, according to The Times.

      The newspaper reports that the PM held a meeting this afternoon with senior cabinet ministers Rishi Sunak, Michael Gove and Matt Hancock.’

      So, personell wise, the only people there were the Finance Minister, Health and Gove (the only Unionist there who knows exactly how much Scotland is worth to England0…. Hmmm

      Its as if the recent polling is being believed. Full lockdown, to support NS, and keep us off the streets and doorsteps campaigning.

      BILLBOARDS, BUMPER STICKERS, T SHIRTS, BALOONS… POSTERS, ANYTHING VISUAL FOLKS.

      TELL THEM WHY THEY NEED TO VOTE FOR THE PLEBISCITE – THE BATH CHARTER. THE WHO THEY VOTE FOR WILL COME AFTER.

    142. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Can anyone who is interested in helping establish a ‘protest camp’ in Edinburgh before Brexit comes into effect please declare themselves?

      Discussions are already happening – we can include you if you like.

      Hoots!

      🙂

    143. James Che. says:

      Keep going stu, we know at times we dumb found you and you feel like your hitting your head against a brick wall, but the numbers are up here on your site,
      Your not failing at all, I am reading down all the comments, and like many others we now realise that we the people, have to display what we the Scottish independence movement want, we’re talking, discussing, trying to find ways around the snp problem, you’ve made most of us realise that we have to move fast, and it has to be the grass roots that make action happen, all I can say is don’t be disheartened stu, the road might have taken a bend making some lose their way, but more are joining and walking that road together, with you, Head up .
      Of corse their are a few here still saying we should wait, and a few still trying to hang on to the hope that they can change the snp at short notice, there will always be those that fear monger us into not making a move, such as look what happened to Craig Murray. Look what happened to Alex Salmond etc etc,
      Let us be straight talking here, the Scottish people did the grass roots movement in 2014, not a political party, by the people acting together as one grass movement en masse it is very hard to challenge or imprison a whole nation as long as we don’t break the law.
      Working together as a nation highlights our cause on the international stage. That was what happened in 2014,
      We need to show that, as a majority in Scotland, we speak together as one voice for independence of Scotland and its nation of people,
      The very first step is to have the banners, flags, bumper stickers, face masks, posters, hats, scarfs, badges etc on huge display all over Scotland, wherever you look permanently, until we have made the visual impact that we stand and work together as a nation, I said it before, this can be done even during lockdown,
      Those whom live in Glasgow or Edinburgh, near snp or holyrude could Have a better influence and impact than others, but that should not deter any individual from joining the nation of Scotland to gain independence of their country. For those that want our country to be fair, and democratic, free from awful politicians and bad governance , stand up and be counted, it’s time for the people in the nation of Scotland to have a voice as one.

    144. mr thms says:

      An interesting video

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb5W8UkrVBc

      “Brexit: What is the Internal Market Bill and does it break international law?”

      The key part..

      “What is in the Internal Market Bill? Basically it’s about how different parts of the UK trades goods with each other because after the transitional arrangement ends all parts of the UK will no longer be ‘bound together’ by EU’s laws. This means different parts of the UK could make their own laws in certain areas which could create issues if a business in one part of the UK tries to sell goods and services to another part with different rules. The Internal Market Bill aims to remove these barriers of trade between the different parts of the UK making sure that any goods and services which can be sold in one part of the UK can also be sold in another part of the UK. The devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales aren’t happy about this because they may have to accept goods from other parts of the UK as decided by the government in Westminster, even if they set different standards.”

      So what happens next and how long will the process take?

      http://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/brexit-deal-infringement-procedure

      “Brexit deal: infringement procedure”

      As a result of the UK Government’s decision not to remove the provisions in the Internal Market Bill by the end of September, the European Commission announced on 1st October that it was launching an infringement procedure against the UK.

      “What is in the Internal Market Bill? Basically it’s about how different parts of the UK trades goods with each other because after the transitional arrangement ends all parts of the UK will no longer be ‘bound together’ by EU’s laws. This means different parts of the UK could make their own laws in certain areas which could create issues if a business in one part of the UK tries to sell goods and services to another part with different rules. The Internal Market Bill aims to remove these barriers of trade between the different parts of the UK making sure that any goods and services which can be sold in one part of the UK can also be sold in another part of the UK. The devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales aren’t happy about this because they may have to accept goods from other parts of the UK as decided by the government in Westminster, even if they set different standards.”

      the (If the UK drops the Internal Market Bill due to international pressure, does this mean Scotland is independent?

    145. holymacmoses says:

      Daisy Walker says:
      30 October, 2020 at 11:23 pm
      One legal action that needs to take place before 31/12/20 is a qualified lawyer (that is all that is required) registers with the EU a legal complaint against the Internal Markets Bill within the terms of the Withdrawal Agreement.

      ………………..

      have you contacted Ms Cherry with this?

    146. Hatuey says:

      I can’t believe how pessimistic and defeatist people on here can be at times. Even Rev is talking about doing something else with his life and the possibility of Sturgeon somehow hanging on.

      Fuck all that.

      If Sturgeon hangs on, the SNP are going to lose a lot of support. That’s our leverage.

      We don’t have the power to force the issue, but we can definitely do enough harm to scupper their chances of achieving a majority in the 2021 election.

      They know that but it strikes me that a lot of people here don’t.

      None of us want it to come to that, of course, and that’s why the SNP needs to change. If they refuse to change then they will pay the price in the election.

      They key is not to blink first which, against Sturgeon, shouldn’t be difficult.

      I’m working on the basis that Sturgeon will be gone by Christmas though. The people I know ask me how that will be facilitated, by what means and mechanism, etc. It doesn’t work like that, though.

      When leaders become irredeemable liabilities, they just go.

      Go through all the leaders you have seen come and go over say the last 30 years, Corbyn, Kinnock, Salmond, Thatcher, Blair, Cameron, Swinson, the list is endless and that’s just in this country. How many of them were actually forced to resign because of some vote, mechanism, or procedure? The answer is none of them; they stood aside voluntarily.

      Sturgeon will step aside too because the alternatives are all much more unpleasant, for her, the party, and the cause.

      On a personal level, I think she could probably do with a rest. Life can’t be much fun for her right now. It’s a good time for her to stand down.

    147. CameronB Brodie says:

      Ian Brotherhood
      I’d be up for it, though I’m stuck in Dundee right now.

    148. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ian Brotherhood,

      RE 24/7 campaign in Edinburgh.

      We need to make it one venue (first). I think it needs to be Holyrood.

      And it needs to be shifts.

      A rota – Early, Late, Night.

      Different Cities, Yes Groups need to pick a day and a shift and then try and keep to it each week, repetition.

      Edinburgh – you need to be the glue, there at shift change overs. Continuity. And being realistic, during the working week, early shift, folks from elsewhere will struggle to staff it fully.

      For example, Monday 0900 – 1600 hrs – Edinburgh

      Monday 1600 – 0000hrs – Fifers (they’re nearer and don’t have so far to go)

      0000 – 0900 hrs anyone mad enough (being realistic)

      Tuesday 0900 – 1600 hrs Leither’s (not the same as Edinburghites but geographically close)
      1600 – 0000 hrs, Folk fae the Borders
      0000 – 0900 – anyone wha’s mad enough

      Wednesday 0900 – 1600 hrs Taysider’s If they come in enough numbers they can do some shopping in between times – Edinburgh folk can have a day off.
      1500 hours – 0000hrs – all the people in Stirlingshire who think Alan Smith is a wanker
      0000- 0900 hrs – anyone who is mad enough

      Thursday 0900 – 1600 hrs A lonely yesser from Portobello
      1600 – 0000 hrs, Yessers from eastern part of Greater Glasgow area (on no account refer to them as ‘lesser weedgies – no account)
      0000 – 0900 – anyone who’s mad enough

      Friday 0900 – 1600 hrs Edinburgh-ites
      1600 – 0000 all the Glaswegians + Cactus
      0000 – 0900 all the Glaswegians + Cactus

      Saturday 0900 – 1600 anyone from all over
      1600 – 0000 Dundonians – just so the Weegies don’t get ahead of themselves _ Cactus
      0000 – 0900 Weegies and Dundonians + Cactus

      Sunday 0900 – 1600 People from Perth as long as its respectable
      1600 – 0000hrs – hopefully some more Dundonians to make up for the Perth folk
      0000 – 0900 hrs – anyone still standing and mad enough

      There you go, the above is but one variation. Obviously weekends are easier to staff up, so the Highlanders, Islanders and people from Montrose can get a turn too. And Aberdonians…

      Make each shift a2 x a block of 4 hrs, (roughly) that way it will be easier for folk to commit to, especially if travelling long distances.

      Let the Cities/areas furthest away book their day first (and for them that might be once a month)

      Those closer to Edinburgh can afford to be the backfill.

      Portaloos + Covid clean down procedures will need to be on site.

      A Shetler / Stall to give out leaflets and ensure staff can get a cuppie will need to be there. (All attenidng should bring their own packed lunch/meal)

      Numbers – how many do you need minimum, how many do you want on average, how many can you deal with maximum. Some form of is assessment needs to be done. (This is not as difficult as it sounds – I can help).

      Point of focus – during each shift there should be some form of speaker/ event (not long.. but can be stepped up to be more ‘news worthy’ as events grow.

      Thats’ it for the noo. Just a few ideas. Cheerie.

    149. Daisy Walker says:

      Some form of is assessment should read ‘risk’ assessment .. Doh.

      PS I’m in.

    150. cynicalHighlander says:

      @Ian B 11.41pm

      Only in a financial way.

    151. Hatuey says:

      Ian Brotherhood, my mum and I would be happy to put in a shift, bring some donuts and coffee, make a donation, that sort of thing. She’s a huge fan of your crosswords and will probably ask for your autograph.

    152. Iain More says:

      I have seen the latest opinion poll and I rub my eyes in disbelief. I know now I am living in the Twilight Zone.

    153. A2 says:

      Most of us have at least one snp msp and an MP.

      It’s really up to us to be making it absolutely clear to them that our votes for them are dependent on their commitment to independence and the action to follow that up regardless of the stance of the leadership or the NEC. That means exploring all avenues so preventing that debate is not acceptable.

      They work for us, not the “leadership” and the “leadership” in turn works for them, not the other way round.

      So get your crayons out and get to your constituency office and make it clear that they need to take back control or they don’t get your vote.

      Either the people are sovereign or they aren’t.

    154. A2 says:

      @Hatuey

      “Sturgeon will step aside too because the alternatives are all much more unpleasant, for her, the party, and the cause.”

      That’s assuming that she actually gives a toss about the latter two

    155. Beaker says:

      @A2 says:
      31 October, 2020 at 12:43 am
      “Most of us have at least one snp msp and an MP.”

      I only have an SNP MSP, since the MP likes trains…

    156. Hatuey says:

      A2, true, but I think we’d all agree that she definitely cares about herself.

    157. Breeks says:

      Mac says:
      30 October, 2020 at 5:53 pm
      I saw some youtube clip or something recently of an irate builder and his work lads smashing a new garden fence and patio to smithereens while shouting about how the lady who asked them to do all the work had never paid them, cheating all these lads out of their wages.

      Works on TV, but in reality, the fence, even though it hasn’t been paid for, is the customer’s property, and the Contractor could be charged with criminal damage. The Courts take the view it’s a type of action similar to vigilantes taking the law into their own hands, and they get very jealous and upset if anybody encroaches on their hegemony over justice. Sometimes they even take a darker view of the retribution than they do of the original crime / provocation. The Law likes to look after property owners too, who are obviously a better class of people than these coarse riffraff builder types.

      As for Sturgeon, I don’t think she’ll go until she’s pushed. It will take disaster at the polls to shift that one. I don’t see anyone in Holyrood capable of making her life more complicated, even if she’s broken this code or that protocol. Nobody cares, because Holyrood is broken, and broken by design. There won’t be a public scandal, because the BritNat Establishment needs to protect the illusion that Holyrood has potency. It’s certainly not part of the script for any revolutionary activity to kick off in Holyrood.

      These conspirators, and I’m including Sturgeon, should properly have been expelled from the building, had their properties searched, electronic devices seized as evidence, and interviewed under caution by police for their part in an illegal conspiracy to frame an innocent man have him sent to jail. Where is the justice in ‘holding them to account’ in a Holyrood Inquiry which they’re not obliged to attend, and where ‘they’ control the evidence put in front of the inquiry? You don’t know whether to laugh or cry. It’s a farce. What kind of jail sentence can a parliamentary inquiry hand down? Why is there no criminal investigation? Are we seriously content to have these wretched crooks being above the Law??? Where are the fkg arrest warrants?

      By all means, relish the Inquiry’s capacity to make these criminals look shifty and crooked, but ask yourself why it’s not happening as part of a criminal inquiry. Even before the ‘verdict’, we already know they have evaded justice… at least so far.

      Holyrood doesn’t work, because Holyrood is Westminster’s colonial outpost, and it suits Westminster’s purpose and agenda to have it there, even if only to cynically threaten it’s removal if the Scottish MSP’s get upset and rowdy about something. Behave, or else…

      Scotland requires a TRUE Parliament, a Parliament which is by literal definition, a sovereign seat of Government… not the pretendy wee sham that is Holyrood.

      And yes, I know, it wouldn’t be a ‘sovereign’ Parliament because the people are sovereign, not the politicos, but in the pyramidal hierarchy of sovereignty, Scotland’s “Sovereign” Parliament would indeed be one level beneath the sovereign people of Scotland, but many levels ABOVE the false “sovereign convention” of the UK’s Westminster Parliament. It would be adequately sovereign in effect, and deemed sovereign by description.

    158. Graeme McAllan says:

      Indy Scotland, despite having both hands and one foot tied behind it’s back, continues to shoot itself in the ankle 🙁

    159. Tom says:

      Don’t know and neither agree nor disagree are different.

      If you reply neither agree … then what you are saying is that you have the information and think it would make no difference.

      I have had surveys at work (How well do you think the company is doing?) and it annoys me when they don’t split these two out as separate options.

      Answering Don’t know to how certain questions (like how do you rate the head of department) can be a real burn.

    160. gullaneno4 says:

      12% lead in the polls.
      How has that happened with all of this petty egoistic infighting ?

      I really do not think that Scottish voters are focusing on ‘he said she said’ internal rows but have their eyes clearly on the big prize and our future.
      I really do not care who leads an Independent Scotland.
      Win the battle then sort this minor mess out.

    161. Oneliner says:

      @Graeme McAllan

      It only looks good because Unionism, in the form of Johnson, Starmer and that other guy, has its lower legs missing.

    162. Dan says:

      A potential chance to influence change perhaps.

      Heads up to SNP members – candidate lists for committees/elected positions on NEC are now open for selecting on http://SNP.org through mysnp. Selection of nominees closes on 11th November. For goodness sake do some research & please choose wisely.

      https://twitter.com/MrsKrabapple/status/1322239454547972097

      Some further info copied from email received.

      Next month we’ll hold our first virtual conference over the St Andrew’s Day weekend. The 86th Annual National Conference will take place on Saturday 28, Sunday 29 and Monday 30 November.

      The conference will end with a speech from Nicola Sturgeon on St Andrew’s Day.

      Delegates and member visitors

      If you haven’t yet secured your pass for Conference, please do so quickly. Delegate passes can be obtained via your local branch and member visitor passes by clicking here.

      Nominations

      You can now nominate members for national office-bearer positions and regional members of the national executive committee. Click here to go to our Member Portal to nominate. Those who reach the nomination thresholds will go forward to elections at conference.

      Agenda

      We aim to make SNP Conference interactive and innovative, with a focus on delegates taking an active role. Moving to a new online platform means the format of debates will be different.

      The Conferences Committee has agreed the following structure:

      The conference auditorium will be six sessions of two hours across the three days.
      These will be supplemented by fringe meetings, a virtual exhibition hall, and other interactive features to allow everyone to meet and discuss topics with other attendees.

      Conference sessions themselves will be based around six key debates, consolidated from the many resolutions received. Conference Committee has worked to include as many ideas as possible, so you’re likely to find your own idea included in the agenda as part of a wider resolution.

      The Conferences Committee is working with branches and members who submitted motions to produce these composite motions.

      The “Journey to the Manifesto” agenda will be published on Monday 2 November. The Conference session themes will be:

      NHS and social care post pandemic
      Jobs and the economic recovery
      An independent future for Scotland
      Green Recovery
      Social Justice and Equality
      Scotland in the World

      Branches and members will receive feedback on motions submitted over the weekend, with some non-time critical motions which do not fit into the themes above held over for a later conference.

      In addition to the conference session on independence, a National Assembly on “The Route to Independence” will be held in January to discuss tactics and strategy for campaigning.

      Internal motions have been remitted to the Governance Review convened by Keith Brown. Details on the next steps of the Governance Review will be announced shortly.

      Yours, for Scotland

      Angus MacLeod

    163. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Thanks to all who expressed interest in the ‘protest camp’ idea – will be sure to let everyone know here as and when we have something solid to discuss/aim for.

      😉

    164. paul says:


      gullaneno4 says:
      31 October, 2020 at 9:04 am

      12% lead in the polls.
      How has that happened with all of this petty egoistic infighting ?

      I really do not think that Scottish voters are focusing on ‘he said she said’ internal rows but have their eyes clearly on the big prize and our future.
      I really do not care who leads an Independent Scotland.
      Win the battle then sort this minor mess out.

      We are constantly encouraged to keep our eyes on the prize, but this hermetic leadership is determined, by naked, blind self interest, on a ‘look but don’t touch’ policy.

    165. paul says:

      Ron Maclean says:
      30 October, 2020 at 7:16 pm

      Too many mights maybe but all is not yet lost.

      Please don’t give up.

      Well said, to do nothing is to guarantee failure, anything else exploring possibilities might fail, but a magnificent failure is way above a miserable success.

    166. holymacmoses says:

      The “Journey to the Manifesto” agenda will be published on Monday 2 November. The Conference session themes will be:
      NHS and social care post pandemic
      Jobs and the economic recovery
      An independent future for Scotland
      Green Recovery
      Social Justice and Equality
      Scotland in the World

      Sounds nebulous and flummery enough to avoid answering any real questions.

      <b How about:
      SNP funding for Independence
      Justice and the SNP
      SNP: its role in Scottish Politics
      SNP and equality: has the SNP awoken to issues involved?

    167. Muscleguy says:

      We will soon get to find out if Sturgeon has any integrity left or if she is just about hanging on for the sake of it. The Salmond Inquiry SHOULD do for her if she has any integrity left. It WILL show she was deeply involved in the campaign to get him.

      I am half expect a ‘shock’ resignation from her but I’m not holding my breath over it because I’m less and less sure she has any integrity left. I think it has been burned out and she has internalised her own cult of personality and thinks SHE is indispensable.

      If she jumps we will know she has some integrity left. If she has to be pushed then we will know she doesn’t.

      BTW Jacinda Ardern in NZ showed you can take the reins of your party close to an election and win it if you have integrity and vision.

    168. Dave says:

      You’re ignoring the FACT that when we dont exclude the dont knows support for Independence lies BELOW 50%. In other words a referendum would be a crap shoot with our ONLY chance lying with a group of dont knows who frankly are the worst of both worlds. If people cant tell which side their bread is buttered on after the last 10 years or so then any reliance on their ability to make the right choice about anything is frightening to say the least.
      Nobody is more impatient for Independence than me but Im not seeing much of an improvement of our chances from 2014 especially when a second Indyref follows on from a total media onslaught of negativity fearmongering and persuasive propaganda and thats without all the dirty tricks the vile mind of Dominic Cummings can come up with or the divisions within the ranks of the Yes campaign such as the ongoing war between Wings and the SNP.
      And you wonder why the Government hesitates?

    169. Muscleguy says:

      BTW a response to this and a way to send a message that it is unacceptable is to vote ISP on the List next May (seeing as there won’t be a plebiscite election). We will hold the SNP’s feet to the fire over this. We are getting ready for it. Legislatively ready.

      Vote ISP and we will be conscience of the Yes Campaign. The SNP won’t know what’s hit them. The Greens will be shamed. Independence and how to get there will be a common, daily subject in Holyrood. The Tories won’t be the only party obsessed with independence 😉

    170. Dave says:

      @Muscleguy

      Oh ok so what is ISPs economic policy? Education policy? Energy policy? Local Government policy? Health policy? Any policy?

    171. Dave says:

      @Muscleguy

      I thought the idea behind another pro Indy party fighting ONLY for list seats was to take them from the pro Yoon parties not the pro Indy parties? So you’d better come up with something better than holding the SNPs feet to the fire over Independence or we’re going to think your ONLY agenda is to prevent the SNP from gaining an overall majority.

    172. paul says:

      I’ll happily sign up.

      An hour or two a week would suit most. have a ticket you can both take on or pass.

      But it is no replacement for an effective political force.

    173. paul says:


      Ian Brotherhood says:
      31 October, 2020 at 9:32 am

      Thanks to all who expressed interest in the ‘protest camp’ idea – will be sure to let everyone know here as and when we have something solid to discuss/aim for.

      ?

      That was what intended to reply to

    174. David Ferguson says:

      @ Dave
      31 October, 2020 at 12:15 pm

      Oh ok so what is ISPs economic policy? Education policy? Energy policy? Local Government policy? Health policy? Any policy?

      What’s the SNP’s policy on any of these in an independent Scotland?

      Didn’t you get the “Wheesht for Indy” memo, you feckin eejit?

    175. Dave says:

      @Muscleguy

      Alex Salmond doesnt believe Nicola Sturgeon was part of the plot to bring him down why do you?
      All the evidence points to Linda Evens being the main player and instigator aided by other subordinate Civil Servants. The Civil Service isnt Devolved it is FULLY controlled and run by the English Government in the case of Scotland from the Scotland Office under Yoonian Jack and before that Fluffy Mundell. These are the people who should be investigated not members of the Scottish Government.

    176. paul says:

      Dave.

      Your attacks on muscelguy are rather unfair.

      He is part of a fledgling organisation called the Scottish Independence Party.

      We do not have great resources, but we will have great people.

      The point is in the title of the party.

      Everything else should be presented as such.

    177. Dave says:

      @David Ferguson

      What does it matter what the SNP policies are for an Independent Scotland when we’re talking about a manifesto for electing MSPs into the DEVOLVED Parliament at the next election?
      A manifesto for an election into an Independent Scottish Parliament should only be written when you’re trying to get your people elected into one. YOU FECKIN EEGIT.

    178. Dave says:

      @Paul

      They are not attacks they are requests for clarification and substance to his assertions and pleas for support.

    179. Dave says:

      @Paul

      Fledgling or not you better be prepared to campaign with actual policies and ideas for each constituency you want to compete for or else you have no right to ask anybody within these constituencies to vote for you. People who get elected to office have a DUTY to SERVE so you better be prepared to SERVE if elected or you’re no better than the Tories labour or Lib Dems.

    180. Michael Laing says:

      @Dave at 12.40pm: “Alex Salmond doesnt believe Nicola Sturgeon was part of the plot to bring him down why do you?”

      Why has Nicola Sturgeon never shown the slightest hint of concern or support for Alex Salmond, in that case? She evidently despises him, for whatever reason. All she has done since the trial is to continue to imply his guilt, and to insist that she was right to launch the investigation into him, despite it being biased and illegal. And besides, as First Minister and leader of the SNP, she is ultimately responsible for the actions and policies of her government, regardless of whether she personally instigated them or not.

    181. Dave says:

      @Michael Laing

      In what way has she shown no hint of concern or support for Alex Salmond? Are you privy to their personal conversations?
      Where has this “Evidently despises him” manifested itself?
      When has she implied his guilt?
      Ive seen several attempts by Yoon media to claim she has implied his guilt but they didnt actually manage to present any ACTUAL examples of her doing so.
      She was right to launch an investigation at the time she had no choice. But the investigation she launched wasnt the one that saw him taken to court. The investigation that dragged him through the courts was the one conducted WITHIN THE CIVIL SERVICE by LINDA EVANS. The investigation Nicola Sturgeon launched was within the SNP PARTY. That one DIDNT end up with Alex Salmond having to go to court.
      Alex Salmond knew that understood it which is why he went to her before the accusations became public.
      You’re making this shite up as you go along.

    182. Chris Downie says:

      I’ve had some real hate directed at me from SNP happy clappers for saying this, but I don’t buy the “get indy, then deal with this” attitude. For years now, the YES movement has had as a central tenet a desire to build a fairer, more just society. It is on that mantra that we must stand in my view, which means starting as we mean to go on and weeding out corruption like this. If we were to press on, knowing this undercurrent exists, only to return to it after achieving independence (I know, I know, but let’s indulge them for a moment) then we would have achieved our goal under false pretences. That would make us no better than our opponents.

    183. Dan says:

      Dave says: at 12:43 pm

      What does it matter what the SNP policies are for an Independent Scotland when we’re talking about a manifesto for electing MSPs into the DEVOLVED Parliament at the next election?

      Well in that case folk would vote for another party such as ISP to protest and represent their views against some of the batshit crazy policies the SNP seem so keen to be pushing at this particular moment in time.

      Turkeys, if informed and included in a voting franchise might well vote for a party that didn’t support stuffing turkeys in an oven…

    184. Dave says:

      @Chris downie

      How do we weed out English Government corruption from within a Devolved Scottish Parliament or with 59 MPs out of 650?
      Dont you think the ONLY way to weed out English Government corruption for GOOD is to rid us of the disunion with England for good?

    185. crazycat says:

      @ Dave at 1.14

      Linda Evans is an actress.

      (So is Leslie Evans.)

    186. paul says:


      Dave says:
      31 October, 2020 at 12:48 pm

      @Paul

      Fledgling or not you better be prepared to campaign with actual policies and ideas for each constituency

      Is that your central directorates policies, right now?

      you want to compete for or else you have no right to ask anybody within these constituencies to vote for you.

      People who get elected to office have a DUTY to SERVE so you better be prepared to SERVE if elected or you’re no better than the Tories labour or Lib Dems.


      If agree with better to serve,which i do not

    187. Dave says:

      @Dan

      What batshit crazy policies are you actually referring to? And what alternatives are being offered by ISP?

      Is the idea to vote for ISP so they can eh em well eh och what dis it matter we’re no the SNP.

      How many Yoon votes are you hoping to get with that ploy?

    188. Dave says:

      @Paul

      That looks like a really badly failed attempt to try and counter my point when you could have agreed and actually come up with reasons why the ISP would serve their constituents better than the SNP.

    189. paul says:

      Paul replies

      quite happily.

      Dave,

      How has our leadership promoted independence?

    190. Dave says:

      @Crazycat

      Im awfie glad we have you here to make the really vital points when needed.

    191. paul says:

      quite happily.

      Dave,

      How has your leadership argued for independence?

    192. Dave says:

      @Paul

      Not sure what you’re happy about you didnt say.

      Well for one thing they held an Independence referendum in 2014 and are winning mandates for a second while waiting for the majority of the Scottish electorate to wake up to reality so they can WIN the second and last referendum.
      Its the majority of people in Scotland who need convincing not the membership of the SNP.

      What have you done recently?

    193. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Skip_NC – drinking water direct from an American tap? You must like taking your life in your hands. I lived in Chicago and its suburbs for over a decade and the water there wasn’t a tenth of the quality of water we have here in Scotland. As for stealing our NHS, the fucking yanks will have a MASSIVE fight on their hands. I will be DAMNED if I let some American parasites suck my lifeblood, like they tried to do when I lived there; I WILL be protesting to the literal and metaphorical death if they try that shite here. Sick of their poisonous, pervasive, contaminating influence and infiltration; all America is doing is ruining the world with its grotesque existence. Bloody mentally and emotionally impoverished increasingly third world Hellhole, dragging the rest of us to Hell with it as it goes.

      My piece I wrote aboot my experience with the yank health ‘care’ system:

      https://whorattledyourcage.blogspot.com/2019/11/coming-soon-to-hospital-near-you.html

    194. Skip_NC says:

      Crazycat, agreed, but Linda Evans’ characters are more believable.

    195. Skip_NC says:

      WRYC, I drank unfiltered water twice from an American tap and both times it was to take essential medication. On one occasion it was because the electric got knocked out and the filter via the fridge didn’t work. I forget why I did it the other time.

      I will look at your link later and share it with my wife, who is a Registered Nurse of several decades’ experience.

    196. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Skip_NC, there are a lot of good people in America, and I still have amazing American friends I made over there. It’s just a pity it has such little regard for human life, and is run (into the ground) by corporate psychopaths. Some beautiful places there, mind you, and I had life experiences I could never have had in this small, tragically increasingly American (especially extremist politics-wise) sometimes-embarrassingly-parochial country.

    197. holymacmoses says:

      Michael Laing says:
      31 October, 2020 at 1:05 pm
      @Dave at 12.40pm: “Alex Salmond doesnt believe Nicola Sturgeon was part of the plot to bring him down why do you?”
      ……………..

      And what Mr Salmond knows is that it will make Nicola Sturgeon feel even worse to *know that he doesn’t believe she could ever betray him in this way*

      It’s a wise way of dealing with the issue

    198. holymacmoses says:

      Dave says:
      ‘The investigation that dragged him through the courts was the one conducted WITHIN THE CIVIL SERVICE by LINDA EVANS. The investigation Nicola Sturgeon launched was within the SNP PARTY. That one DIDNT end up with Alex Salmond having to go to court’

      ……

      Can you explain the dates of what you write here?

    199. paul says:


      Dave says:
      31 October, 2020 at 2:05 pm

      @Paul

      Not sure what you’re happy about you didnt say.

      Well for one thing they held an Independence referendum in 2014 and are winning mandates for a second while waiting for the majority of the Scottish electorate to wake up to reality so they can WIN the second and last referendum.
      Its the majority of people in Scotland who need convincing not the membership of the SNP.

      The majority is there now. >50% for the last couple of years.

      This has been regarded as little more than a grievance by the current leadership.

      What have you done recently?

      I’m waiting for your good guidance, perhaps illustrated by what you have done historically.

    200. Dave says:

      @Paul

      No it isnt. There has been 3 maybe 4 polls since 2014 that have been above 50% when you dont exclude the dont knows. That means a referendum now would be HEAVILY reliant on MOST DONT KNOWS voting Yes which is a HUGE gamble AT BEST. Like I said before its a crap shoot.

      You’re getting good guidance but you’re rejecting it because you want it to be something different.

    201. Dave says:

      @holymacmoses

      “Can you explain the dates of what you write here?”

      If you give me a good reason to.

    202. paul says:

      Dave says:
      31 October, 2020 at 5:45 pm

      Dave says:
      31 October, 2020 at 5:45 pm

      @Paul

      No it isnt. There has been 3 maybe 4 polls since 2014 that have been above 50% when you dont exclude the dont knows. That means a referendum now would be HEAVILY reliant on MOST DONT KNOWS voting Yes which is a HUGE gamble AT BEST. Like I said before its a crap shoot.

      That is most desperate response to general polling I have ever seen,outside the SNPltd
      ,

      You’re getting good guidance but you’re rejecting it because you want it to be something different.

      Not at all,I want it to be patent.

    203. paul says:

      @dave

      I honestly asked for your guidance regarding Scottish independence.

      Can you please wipe your screen down and tell me what to do?

    204. holymacmoses says:

      Last November/December Nicola Sturgeon should have played for Scotland at Westminster and we would be on our way to Independence but all this *pretendy* moral stance game gave Boris Johnson the upper hand. Sturgeon is not only amoral , she’s useless at strategy.

    205. WhoRattledYourCage says:

      Nicola Sturgeon is a silly wee lassie, who never grew up, enjoying playing ‘wacky indulgent aunt’ to all the young zoomers gibbering and capering and parading roond aboot her spewing utter shite that has nothing to do with independence or sanity or rationality. First time she’s been popular in her bookish life. And it will be the last time, too, with the deranged, tedious, hateful shit she’s pulling.

    206. holymacmoses says:

      WhoRattledYourCage says:
      31 October, 2020 at 11:21 pm
      Nicola Sturgeon is a silly wee lassie,

      …….

      You and me – we’re on the same page Cagey

    207. Margaret E says:

      Sent here as Tiers thread now closed
      To Dan 1.37
      Ever read Z for Zacharia? Same storyline, maybe happier ending?

    208. Gregor says:

      Hi stu, do you know if there’s a handy list of folk to nominate on ‘my snp’ to help send a message to hq of who we don’t want? I was on there to nominate Craig Murray but there’s a massive list of positions and I don’t have a clue who most of them are.

    209. Robert Louis says:

      So now the SNP leader, Nicola Sturgeon has shown definitively, that she will NOT ever push for independence, and we enter further lockdown restrictions with the usual nonsense from the lying murderous ‘let them die’ Tories in England, what else could possible happen…

      Oh, I know, the ACTUAL REAL James Bond dies.

      RIP Mr Connery, you absolute legend. A king among men.

    210. Stoker says:

      FOLKS! Possibly some interesting news. I’m in 2 minds about this as I believe we’ve talked enough and actions are now long overdue but since this is the nearest to “actions” we’re currently getting I’m making others aware of it. Please help spread the word. https://twitter.com/AUOBALBA/status/1322815366427561989



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