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Wings Over Scotland


The Neverending Mandate

Posted on September 28, 2022 by

This probably merits more attention.

Because the SNP are now openly, publicly telling you that they’re never going to achieve independence for Scotland, nor even make any meaningful attempt at it.

Let’s look at that statement for a moment – bearing in mind it comes from someone very close indeed to Nicola Sturgeon.

The last sentence is what the SNP have been telling us for the last six or seven years: that the UK government will be unable to democratically resist a mandate from the Scottish people for another indyref.

They’ve kept telling us this as UK PM after UK PM has done precisely that – David Cameron then Theresa May then Boris Johnson then Liz Truss have resisted mandate after mandate after mandate with no difficulty whatsoever, and no sign that it’s caused them any sleepless nights.

The SNP have won eight elections in Scotland since the indyref: Westminster elections in 2015, 2017 and 2019, Holyrood elections in 2016 and 2021, council elections in 2017 and 2022 and European election in 2019. None of them were close-run victories – they won the Euro election by 23 points over their nearest rival, and only the 2017 council election saw a winning margin in single digits.

There has been a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament for every single day since the 2014 referendum. Were Scotland a normal democratic country, we would be out of the UK by now. Parliament would have voted for it, just like the UK Parliament did for Brexit, and that would have been the end of the matter. The UK Parliament did not require or seek permission from the European Parliament to leave the EU. It simply exercised its democratic right as the body representing the people.

(Even though there has never been a UK Parliament where pro-Brexit MPs represented over 50% of voters in an election – in the wholly-Brexit-focused 2019 election, pro-Brexit parties got just 46% of the vote, compared to 49.6% for pro-indy parties at the 2021 Holyrood election.)

Pro-Brexit MPs could, of course, point to the Brexit referendum itself as their mandate. But now the SNP are telling us that even if an election they are treating as “a de facto referendum” delivers over 50% of the vote, they’ll still simply go back to Westminster with their caps in their hands and “demand” another referendum like they’ve been doing for over half a decade.

In other words, the election won’t be an indyref at all, but merely a referendum about a referendum, which the UK government will be under no obligation to attach any significance to, because the SNP itself has just given the UK government carte blanche to say no forever.

(“There is no route to independence that does not involve the agreement of the UK government.”)

So if you wait ANOTHER two years for the SNP to actually do anything, it still won’t count. They’ll just class it as yet another “irresistible mandate”, exactly the same as the previous eight that the UK Government resisted.

And when they resist this one too – which they will, because why on Earth wouldn’t they? What do they have to lose? Votes in Scotland? LOL – what will the SNP do? Make the NEXT election ANOTHER two years down the line ANOTHER “de facto referendum”, then repeat forever when Westminster knocks that one back too? This is already their last-ditch Hail Mary option and they’ve just told you they don’t really mean it. We’re still just begging on bended knee for something we’re never going to be given.

(The idea that it’s “politically” impossible, as opposed to legally impossible, is just absolute nonsense. We already know that whoever wins the next UK election, Labour or the Tories, will have stood on a manifesto of unequivocally refusing a second indyref and will therefore have its own mandate on behalf of the whole UK to keep Scotland firmly locked in the basement.)

The only way a de facto referendum can work is IF YOU ACTUALLY TREAT IT AS A REFERENDUM – that is to say, if you get over 50% of the vote you DO go ahead and declare independence, bypassing the UK government and appealing for international recognition under the UN Charter, noting that all other peaceful avenues have been comprehensively exhausted.

It’s actually the way most countries in the last 100 years have done it. It wouldn’t be plain sailing. But anything less than that is just throwing in the towel before the start of the fight. “Do what I want or I’ll jolly well ask you again in the future” is not a strategy, it’s a surrender.

Safely assume, readers, that Mhairi Hunter – the First Minister’s election agent, loyal servant and close personal pal – would not make public statements that did not reflect the First Minister’s position. This is SNP policy now. The “de facto referendum” has just been revealed as merely another empty, meaningless fart of rhetoric aimed at the infinitely gullible. More of the same, because if the mug punters are still swallowing it why would they stop shovelling it?

There are no secrets here. No journalism, no analysis was required to uncover the scam. They’re just telling you, right out in the open, if you can be bothered to hear. If you still believe in them – and there are still diehard SNP loyalists who read this site despite everything – ask yourself exactly what it would take to make you see. For as long as these crooked charlatans have control of the SNP, there will be no independence.

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Duncan Clark

If you encounter any bears whilst on patrol, please let us know. Being torn apart by an angry ursine is becoming a better option than another day in Sturgeon’s NuScotlandshire.

Scott

I’m sick fed up of the lies spouted by the SNP about legality of anything. If there’s no law against a thing, it’s lawful. How fucking thick are they all?

There’s an Act of Scottish Parliament devoted to referendums.

Also, in Scotland nobody can stop a petition organised by or on behalf of the people on a single issue. It can run over a set period, rather than a one day exercise.

It’s democracy in action from the bottom up, as our constitution allows for. A de facto referendum that still allows dissent to be recorded.

It can be restricted to those whose birth is recorded in our national registers, electoral registers in situ, a special register. And public funds are available to organise such a thing.

I’d do it, but can’t for health reasons.

Robert Hughes

It IS ” politically ( and rationally ) impossible ” to believe there is the remotest possibility of Independence under this mob of utter frauds . Epitomised by the ” we never even discuss Independence ” likes of Hunter .

If , come the next UKGE/SGE , anyone , Alex Salmond included , tries to tell us we MUST vote SNP – they can fuck-off .

These fucks will never get another vote from me as long as the current regime is in power – even if another cheek of the same Devolutionist arse takes over in the event of Sturgeon fulfilling her – real – ambition ie …getting a seat on the gilded Globalist Gravy Jet

FiferJP

SNP don’t have the bottle for independence.

Frank Waring

A country can only _negotiate_ its independence if the country it is negotiating with, is (a) willing for them to become independent, and (b) prepared to negotiate in good faith. Neither will ever be the case for the proto-rUK. Independence first, negotiate later — is the only imaginable way.

Scott

UK Government does not own either Act that enabled its existence, the monarch does by virtue of the treaty Queen Anne created.

In Scotland, the monarch is beholden to the people’s expressed will.

The end.

Get on with it.

orri

If there was any clearer indication that a plebiscite election was at all viable it’d be her attempt to kill it in the womb.

She was rejected at the polls in an STV election where people who supported independence deliberately avoided voting for her.

She knows that in a post independence Scotland that not only would the support for the SNP fall but the election process’s at all levels of government would probably be far more proportional than Holyrood’s, never mind Westminster’s.

This is simply someone who doesn’t want the gravy train to end. Who needs eternal student politics where fuck all is actually achieved to make a wage.

Basically it’s sabotage.

As will be the case if by some chance the Supreme Court give the green light to a referendum next year, there’s a general election before then, and the SNP don’t stand for a mandate with at least an option for UDI if the incoming Westminster decide to block said referendum. Perhaps via emergency legislation amending the Scotland Act. Or by simply legislating the referendum away on behalf of Holyrood.

Merganser

I have repeatedly said the SNP are not a party of independence and the sole intention of the so-called de facto (or any other type)
referendum is designed simply to keep them in the trough for as long as possible. I am puzzled that so many people haven’t seen this.
But even in the light of this open admission they will probably carry on as before. I wonder what it will take for them to see the light.

Republicofscotland

I get the feeling that the UKSC will knock back the mock indyref, and Sturgeon will use the next GE to obtain as many SNP MPs as possible, when that happens independence will be kicked into the long grass until 2026, when it will be wheeled out again to fool the indy masses once more.

Sturgeon will never attempt an indyref without Westminster’s consent, in other words whilst she’s FM the unions safe and secure, the question must be how much damage she’ll do to the indy movement and Scotland before she exits Bute House, and will we still be in a position to leave this union by then.

lothianlad

I have never desoised a political leader more than sturgeon. I used to cheer the loudest at her conference speeches, but thanks to this site, I have been awakened to the treachery.
Lets hope other SNP diehards do the same and ditch this treacherous woman.

lothianlad

Sturgeon is out too sabotage the independence cause. The SNP members are scared of her. Time for them to wake up and challenge her!
For Scotlands sake!

lothianlad

Of course she doesnt want independence…. ‘She’d be in Jail’!!

Ruby

“There is no route to independence that does not involve the agreement of UK Gov.”

This is about the 20th time I’ve posted the following:

Nobody should be agreeing to a de facto referendum everyone should be demanding a section 30.

If Sturgeon can’t come up with a section 30 then we should be demanding her resignation and someone with some political savvy put in her place.

At the same time we should be taking matters into our own hands.

All demonstrations should be happening in London. There would be more of a chance of attracting international press coverage there than a demonstration held in Glasgow or anywhere in Scotland.

There should be demonstrations demanding the ‘cozy slippers’ do something and demonstrations demanding a Section 30.

What has Sturgeon done to get a section 30? What have the ‘Cozy fuckers’ at Westminster done?

Effijy

There are a whole commonwealth of countries that have informed Westminster to get on its bike as they declared themselves independent.

Are the SNP telling us we are too wee, too stupid to walk a well established road.

Scotland needs a party of independence and quick.

Vivian O’Blivion

Wot? Declare UDI and wave goodbye to the (responsibility free) gravy bus? The Gilruth / Dugdale hoosehold grosses an absolute minimum of £250k per annum.

Hatuey

“bypassing the UK government and appealing for international recognition under the UN Charter, noting that all other peaceful avenues have been comprehensively exhausted… It’s actually the way most countries in the last 100 years have done it.”

You know the first thing the UK Government would do if Scotland threatened to bypass the Section 30 process and do as you suggest above?

They’d offer us a Section 30.

Iain More

SNP are now superficially and Indy Party. Aye the good Jocko Uncle Tom is in ruddy good health in the SNP.

James Che

Rev Stu .
Am I supposed to be surprised, Shocked? , angry, ? disappointed,? upset with the snp,? the Scottish devolved government?

None of the above I’am afraid. They are all part and parcel of a false front of democracy from a English government.
And I mean a english government both in england and Scotland,

The English parliament entered the created Great Britain government without votes in 1706/ 1707.

The Scottish parliament closed its doors before the Great Britain parliament came into existence.

Hence no legally completed treaty of a political union in 1706 or 1707.

Confused

No one could have predicted this.

I’m shocked … shocked …

James Che

Vivian O’Blivion,

UDI is illegal for governments to proceed with, not people. There is a distinction between the two.

Ruby

Hatuey says:
28 September, 2022 at 3:56 pm

You know the first thing the UK Government would do if Scotland threatened to bypass the Section 30 process and do as you suggest above?

They’d offer us a Section 30.

Is having a ‘de facto referendum’ not a threat to bypass the section 30?

MaggieC

Rev Stu,

Just to let you know that I’ve not received an email about this post, I wonder if this has happened to anyone else ?

I’ll tick the box again re notification of new posts by email.

Ruby

Vivian O’Blivion says:
28 September, 2022 at 3:55 pm

Wot? Declare UDI and wave goodbye to the (responsibility free) gravy bus? The Gilruth / Dugdale hoosehold grosses an absolute minimum of £250k per annum.

Why do you think we didn’t have this ‘cozy slippers’ problem in 2014?

panda paws

“There is no route to independence that does not involve the agreement of the UK government.”

Yes, there is. Indeed, several routes actually. Just none that the nuSNP are willing, never mind able, to take!

Rab Davis

I look forward to the SNP conference next week where we will be told by the almighty one of how to conduct ourselves during IndyRef2 campaigning.

The contradictory thing about her Code of Conduct is that there is no IndyRef2 to campaign for.

And we can always live and hope that some totally pissed off member rushes the stage where Sturgeon is sitting on her throne, and rams her crown down her throat.

SURELY some member will put Sturgeon in her place at conference.

Sturgeon seems to have total control over every,,,,

member
Councillor
MSP
MP

She also has total control of all Holyrood committees, the judiciary, the Police.

She has total control over every aspect of Scottish life that you can think of.

We are living through a Dictatorship.

The chaos that is happening regards Westminster and the cost of living should be our perfect opportunity to make a move for Scottish independence,

But instead we are going over the same ground we covered eight long years ago.
There must be someone, somewhere,,blah blah blah.

I HATE NICOLA STURGEON!!!

James Che

There is no point in repeatedly hitting your head against the same brick wall.

The native people of Scotland will have to do it for the politicians that deliberately look blockages.

We know that if the pretend devolved government currently managed by the snp on behalf of the UK will not question the breaches of the treaty of the union,
Never mind wether the treaty of political union is actually valid.

David Henry

As most people who know will already know I am not a radical type person. I do listen to others point of view even if at the end I don’t agree with them.

My time in the SNP was always focused on a road to deliver independence until I realised that the SNP was no longer a democratic party and that it was being used by a small group to place radical extremists at central positions within the party. Vetting was being used to stop decent people being selected as candidates and independence was not allowed to even be discussed.

The Alba Party was launched just over a year ago and the Yes campaign has started to relaunch only much wiser than before. Groups like #AUOB, #Salvo and even the group I am a member of #SSRG have helped release the Yes movement that has been kept captive by the SNP since 2015.

Well no longer, Scotland’s future is not the political play thing of the SNP or its leadership. Political leadership and political will is now being offered by Alex Salmond and for that we should all be grateful. A vision supported with experience and plenty of political will. If you want an end to injustice, want to help make a better fairer more equal society then join the battle. Join Alba support the SSRG, sign up to Salvo and join every AUOB march.

Our ancestors must be watching and wondering what took you so long?

YFS
David Henry

James Che

Rab Davis,

NS is just running the devolved government in Scotland the same as the devolved english governments in the Counties of England,

Before her it was Mundell or O Connell, but all of the same creed,
It matters not who is governor of the Colony, but that it is treated with the subjection and suppression of a Colony.

Hatuey

“Is having a ‘de facto referendum’ not a threat to bypass the section 30?”

That depends on how you frame the defacto referendum. They seem to be framing it as another mandate to discuss independence; there’s no compelling threat behind it.

Actually, as the article suggests, the SNP is really threatening to keep doing nothing, and they want another mandate for that.

The only people that will feel threatened by this are real independence supporters.

Shug

I hope anyone attending the SNP conference understands this and makes some sort of demonstration.

Either Nicola, (the knasher) we know her history, grows a pair of balls or she should resign. If not, it is time for the party, MP’s and MSPs to dump her

James Che

Panda Paws.

I agree with you, Yes there are other ways, and violence is not one of them from the Scottish side,
The UK government would just love to send in the army or police to beat us back into submission like the did in 1707 and later.

I like the idea of a PARALLEL COMMUNITY OF SCOTS.

Don,t need to knock out or disturb the devolved government, and bring down the wrath of Uk aggression on our shoulders.

James Che

A PARALLEL COMMUNITY OF SOVEREIGN SCOTS to be precise.

The Devolved governments hold over scottish sovereignty would quickly be deminished.

Rab Davis

James Che 4.48pm

You say is doesn’t matter who is running things in Scotland.

I would have to disagree with you on that one.

Sturgeon is our First Minister.

She holds all the cards.

She is leader of the Pro independence Party SNP.

She is head of a YES majority at Holyrood.

She has the ear of the Westminster government.

She has the power to take our case for independence to international bodies.

She could go down the Claim of Rights road.

Sturgeon has ALL the power,,we have NONE.

So, until she moves her Arse out of Bute House, we are stuck with her and her gradualist road to Indy.

That is why every comment throughout the Indy movement is so full of frustration.

The only way Sturgeon will be removed is by internal manoeuvres from MSPs and MPs.

The rest of us will need to sit it out and hope it happens sooner rather than later.

Mass Protests outside Bute House might get things moving,,,I’d be up for that.

Scott

Rab Davis says:
28 September, 2022 at 5:09 pm

James Che 4.48pm

You say is doesn’t matter who is running things in Scotland.

I would have to disagree with you on that one.

Sturgeon is our First Minister.

She holds all the cards.

Does she, aye?

Not even creations of the Scotland Act can impede a petition from the sovereign population of Scotland.

[eg: Should Scotland repeal Union with England Act 1707? Yes/No – held on a central register]

Statute law provides for this very scenario, as well as it being a common law right.

Rab Davis

Sturgeon is an incompetent, power hungry narcissist.

That’s about the biggest compliment I can give her.

Rab Davis

Scott 5.21pm

I will go down any road that leads to Scottish Independence.

I will fight with every fibre of my body for Scottish independence.

So Scott, if you say we have an option that bypasses Sturgeon, then I’m up for the fight.

I just need pointed in the right direction.

Is your option something the likes of ALBA would run with?

Needs more information about it to be in the public domain.

Outwith the Wings bubble.

stuart mctavish

MH tweet can probably be explained away as a clumsy effort to pressure the supreme court since the defacto referendum, being indyref2 (or indyref3 if indyref2 on 19 October 2023 was somehow too close to call), means that they wont have a mandate for indyref2 in any event.

That said, having denied ALL Scots a say in indyref 2/3, it will surely make it easier to deny the new Scots a vote in indyref4 – so maybe it does add a bit pressure regardless.

mike cassidy

Is it now time to ask why?

Was Sturgeon always a kidon independentista?

Just interested in the ego massage of the top job

And happy to surf the indy desire to get it and keep it

Or is there something else going on?

I’m not partial to conspiracy theories

But those whose job it is to preserve the union could not have been dealt a better hand than such an SNP First Minister

A chance byproduct of devolution

Or something more organised?

100%Yes

Look out for the 5th of November 2022 announcement from Salvo.

I would have thought this was a perfect time for the New SNP to say to Liz Truss give us a S30 order or the SNP will bring forward an early holyrood election and use it as a plebiscite. As we know the New SNP isn’t genuine about Indyref2 because if they were what better time to end this union than today when Westminster is on its knees begging.
Let not forget Sturgeon gave the Tories their majority and put Johnson in Downing street when the Tories couldn’t get anything passed.

I’m a bit fed with this Indytruck and his accomplice and how the New SNP are the only party in town.

Derek

“Hatuey says:
28 September, 2022 at 3:56 pm

You know the first thing the UK Government would do if Scotland threatened to bypass the Section 30 process and do as you suggest above?

They’d offer us a Section 30.”

We could always refuse said Section 30…

John Main

@Scott says:28 September, 2022 at 2:41 pm

“In Scotland, the monarch is beholden to the people’s expressed will.

The end”

Ah, but on a question where half of the people’s expressed will is for one thing, and the other half of the people’s expressed will is for the opposite, which half should the monarch be beholden too?

Thus we see the difficulties arising from the foolish decision by the Indy movement to allow the republican carpet-baggers to climb on board.

The half of the people whose expressed will is for Indy are also assumed to have an expressed will to terminate the monarchy. Hardly surprising if the monarch makes the decision to listen to the other half of the sovereign Scots instead.

And that’s before we remember that it is mostly the Indy half of sovereign Scots whos mouthpieces have been recently hurling spiteful and cowardly insults at our monarchs, alive and dead.

The Kingdom Of Scotland was founded around 843. The Kingdom of Scotland pre-dates the union of 1707. There is absolutely no reason why it can’t post-date the union.

Other than the malice and petty mindedness of the ideological purists who are as determined as ever that it will be their kind of Indy, or no Indy at all.

Louise

Peter grant basically said the same thing that the next election they would be in Westminster

TenV56

Revenge against Alex Salmond and any who support him? She is a spiteful wee wumin now. She’d rather deny us the chance & risk losing devolution than deliver now. She’ll hand the reigns to duffer Robertson, if still around, and walk away having NOT lost the referendum. but SNP will lose seats & votes on her successors watch not hers. to fear to try in case she fails! As for Swinney. he is a state agent!

Scott

@John Main’s latest episode of begging the question

You can’t assume something that hasn’t been expressed. And it most certainly has no standing in Scots law if anyone does so.

yw,hth etc…

sarah

Should we not petition Holyrood, demanding they exercise the Claim of Right which specifically states that if the king [or equivalent leader] fails to protect us from the English then that leader will be deposed?

The Scot gov constantly states that England-dominated Westminster is causing harm to the Scottish people. I think we would all agree with that. It follows that the Scot gov is not currently protecting us from the English.

Holyrood and the Scot gov should on our behalf inform Scottish MPs that they should withdraw from Westminster and then, at the least, consult we the people for our instruction as to withdrawing from the Union.

If Holyrood won’t protect and serve our common good they will have forfeited their right to govern.

By laying this responsibility of upholding the Claim of Right directly and explicitly on Holyrood, it will be clear to all whether our MSPs are loyal to the Claim of Right or actually think that they are sovereign instead.

Rather than launching a Holyrood petition and starting from scratch, perhaps all the salvo and liberation signatories could be asked for their agreement to support the petition. Plus Alba, ISP, Scottish Socialists and other membership listed sources. That would raise a significant number of signatories quickly – it is important to act quickly because as we saw today, disaster can happen overnight.

Big Jock

Indeed. If people still can’t see what’s right in front of their noses, they must be snorting cocaine.

Until Sturgeon goes, it’s game over.

Hatuey

The real point I was trying to make, Derek, rather than some hypothetical point, is that Westminster would back down in an instant if the SNP had a leader that showed even a hint of spirit and resistance. That’s a guess, of course, a guess because it hasn’t come close to happening.

The SNP has a leader that thinks success is measurable in selfies and, as far as I can make out, the only other issue she seems to genuinely care about revolves around allowing men into womens’ toilets.

The SNP hasn’t stood up to the Tories once since she took over. Not in any meaningful way. Blackford’s performances in the Commons over the last few years have been nothing but embarrassing.

Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey done more in a few seconds to inspire us than that whole shower of sub-prime troughing fakes managed in 8 years.

If I lived in a marginal, I’d vote for anyone to get rid of an SNP politician — Tory, Labour, anyone, I’d vote for them, no problem. That’s where I am today.

If you think that’s going a bit too far, just calm yer weesht. Because that’s where you’re all probably going to be in two, three, maybe four years, when the penny finally drops.

You will all enjoy watching the SNP vote collapse some day, though, just as you enjoyed watching Labour support collapse (for the same reasons).

In political terms it’s probably all we realistically have to look forward to, our next evolutionary step into the UK abyss; and it’s only right that you should enjoy punishing those who brought this dire situation about.

I can handle Westminster’s disregard for us. I can handle scumbag Tories treating us like crap. We’ve been dealing with that stuff all our lives. What I can’t handle is the smug SNP imposters pretending they’re on my side.

Ewen A Morrison

I agree very much with most of what’s being said here, especially what David Henry says: “Scotland’s future is not the political plaything of the SNP or its leadership”… There’s been a massive change since Alex Salmond’s time as our First Minister, along with his experience and strength of political willpower.

Westminster feared the original SNP and knew That Ending the ‘UK’ was an inevitability… Scotland regaining its place among the world’s independent nations would
end the United Kingdom AND alter many international relationships as well… Predicting what these alterations might be is too difficult, but we can be sure that they will affect more than Scotland itself!

Many – if not most, pro-independence voters have a strengthening feeling that our people do recognise that our cause is embraced and driven by good social knowledge and in a manner that was never possible before. Good politicians will always matter; however, the internet’s here for most of Scotland’s people and this bodes well for all of our futures!

Again, with David’s words: “Our ancestors must be watching and wondering what took you so long?”

Big Jock

Sturgeon has given up on independence. This metamorphosis occured about 2017. She has made her bed , and will continue with devolution until she retires.

There are various reasons for this. Firstly tactical blunders ,after winning mandates. Showboating trying to stop Brexit. Having no plan when May said now is not the time. Personal issues which compromise her, the Brits have stuff on her.

Inability to think outside the box. Obsessed with keeping the media and unionists on side. Having no plan for independence.Not listening to others. Being very cold hearted and downright vindictive.

All in all a right piece of work. She conned us all. We all fell for it at some point. The empress has no clothes.

Derek

“Hatuey says:
28 September, 2022 at 10:52 pm

The real point I was trying to make, Derek, rather than some hypothetical point, is that Westminster would back down in an instant if the SNP had a leader that showed even a hint of spirit and resistance.”

Aye, but if we had said leader then we wouldn’t need Westminster to back down – which was what I was getting at.

As for your point about voting for anyone but the SNP; I’d spoil my ballot before voting tory. Never voted for them; never going to.

Hatuey

“As for your point about voting for anyone but the SNP…”

That isn’t my point, not exactly. I’m saying I’d vote for anyone if it gave me a realistic chance of punishing the SNP. I’m way beyond hoping they’ll change and actually do something, as you might have gathered.

The vote is all we have and we have every right to use it as we see fit. It isn’t necessary that you vote positively for things you believe in; it’s not football.

What matters is that you vote wisely, where circumstances permit.

Of course, it’s complicated. We have options like Alba to factor in, etc.

Rab Davis

Hatuey 11.47pm

Regards voting for anybody but SNP,,,I remember on this very site last year there was a push to vote for Sarwar in Sturgeon’s constituency vote.

Even the Rev Stu put it forward as a viable plan.

If it had succeeded, then Sturgeon would have lost her seat and we would have had a new First Minister.

But the Sturgeonisatas on here just couldn’t stop themselves from calling out anyone who would consider doing such a thing as a Yoon.

They just didn’t get the big picture.

And to this day those very same people STILL don’t get the big picture.

And even when you try to explain the problems Sturgeon has caused in big easy to explain words,,,, they STILL don’t get it.

That is why we are where we are.

And no doubt the same nutters will be screaming from the rafters next week in Aberdeen at the SNP conference when their cult leader enters the arena.

Christopher Pike

Yet, somehow Indi-Car Gordon Ross, Wee Ginger Dug, Chris ‘eh, eh, eh, eh, eh, eh’ McCusker, Lesley Riddoch and all the other gullible YES types continue to put their faith in the current SNP-Green coalition.

Independence isn’t going to happen and you guys won’t get another chance for at least 10 years.

Christopher Pike

Hatuey says:
28 September, 2022 at 10:52 pm

Kenny MacAskill and Neale Hanvey done more in a few seconds to inspire us than that whole shower of sub-prime troughing fakes managed in 8 years.

———

Both will lose their seats at the next election. The Tories and the SNP have been in power for too long, it’s time for a change both at Westminster and Holyrood.

Hatuey

That’s right, Rab, I was one of those calling for people to vote Sarwar on here. I didn’t mind being called a Yoon either. And I’d have genuinely loved to see him win.

The SNP is the enemy of independence. They’re very effectively blocking the space that a real independence party might occupy. Once you know that, once you realise we’d have more chance of independence if the SNP didn’t exist, everything falls uncomfortably into place.

Hatuey

The might lose their seats, Pike, but if they do it’ll have nothing to do with the SNP being in power too long.

It’ll be more down to BBC Scotland joining forces with the SNP to slate and/or de-platform them; they’ve been conspiring against real independence supporters and the independence movement itself for a good 5 years now.

Christopher Pike

David Henry says:
28 September, 2022 at 4:45 pm

A vision supported with expeIf you want an end to injustice, want to help make a better fairer more equal society then join the battle. Join Alba support the SSRG, sign up to Salvo and join every AUOB march.

——————

1. Injustice exists in every country. How would Scotland become the only nirvana on the face of the Earth?

Christopher Pike

Hatuey says:
29 September, 2022 at 12:31 am
The might lose their seats, Pike, but if they do it’ll have nothing to do with the SNP being in power too long.

It’ll be more down to BBC Scotland joining forces with the SNP to slate and/or de-platform them; they’ve been conspiring against real independence supporters and the independence movement itself for a good 5 years now.

——-

15 years is too long for any government to be in power.

twathater

@ Robert Hughes 2.30pm I am with you on that Robert , I refused to vote for these cocks in frock loving cowards at the last election irrespective of AS’ pleas , I also couldn’t vote for ALBA as I felt their rep was a grifter

I issue fair warning to Gavin Newlands and George Adams I will never vote for you or your party again , you have and are betraying Scotland and the Scottish people by your cowardice in the face of a perverted narcissistic bully , we know the snp pervs are fed back info from this site , maybe if people started publicly telling their own MP’s and MSP’s they will NOT be voting for them or the pervert party they might worry about being thrown off the GRAVY BUS

I also noticed on the Bastard Biased Corporation politics show that bbc reporter David Wallace Lockhart was sticking up and making excuses for humza useless in his appearance at NHS committee today, UNBELIEVABLY he was citing that Westminster was not giving Scotland’s NHS enough money and that humza didn’t have enough borrowing powers or didn’t have enough finances to boost recruitment, Does that NOT appear suspicious when at every opportunity the Bastard corp decries Scotland

Maybe nicoliar is being helped to stay in power

Breeks

Those expecting Sturgeon to “change” and properly push for Independence, I’m sorry to say, remind me of people who wrote letters of complaint about the BBC, to the BBC, believing the bias against Independence was some kind of oversight.

Sturgeon isn’t perplexed on how to deliver Independence any more than the BBC was perplexed about delivering unbiased reporting. There is no intention whatsoever of doing so, but they string along the gullible by perpetual lies and duplicity.

Sturgeon has betrayed the Independence Movement and hasn’t a grain of remorse about doing so. Those who cannot see that need to open their eyes.

To bastardise a phrase attributed to Johnny Armstrong, a Border Reiver conned, deceived, and undone by betrayal by James V. “I am but a fool to seek grace at a graceless face, but had I known you would have taken me this day, I would have lived in the Borders despite King Harry and you both.”

We are but fools expecting Sturgeon to recant her wilful betrayal. It was never unintended, and she will continue to con the gullible until the last act. She should properly be impeached and then jailed or exiled from Scotland.

If the Claim of Right can remove a King from his throne, it can remove a charlatan and betrayer from her seat.

Robert Louis

RevSTU, the indy movement really needs your input. This single article is proof alone, if ever such proof were needed. I read the SNP submission to the supreme court, and even amongst their assertions of universal rights etc.. they placed the caveat that indy needs the co operation of Westminster. They really do not know how to negotiate, do they?

For independence, the SNP apprently have zero political acumen. They openly admit their hand, before Westminster even questions them. They are like a man selling his car for 10k, who when a buyer comes to look, then without question openly states, ‘oh, of course I know you won’t want to pay 10k, I kind of expect to only get 7k’. So guess, what the buyer starts their negotiation from 7K downwards.

Compare and contrast the current ("Quizmaster" - Ed) SNP, with Salmond. When elected he simply said we will have a referendum on independence. He didn’t equivocate, or publicly state that he must seek London’s permission. It rightly put the sh*tes up Westminster, and so the section 30 was agreed.

Like I say the current SNP have zero understanding of how to deal with a colonial thug like Westminster.

But, beyond all that, as Rev STU points out, their has been a pro indy majority since 2014, and any genuine politician who genuinely wanted independence would have gone ahead and done it. The SNP are locked in a colonial mindset that they must beg permission for this and that from Westminster.

Their is an old saying, and it is so very, very true. Power is not given, it is taken. Salmond knew it, but the current clowns in the Scottish government are just cowards of the very worst kind. Feart to actually stand up for Scotland, feart to even attend independence marches, feart to act without begging London’s blessing first.

London and England is f***ed. I mean seriously, it is right royally f***ed. NOW is the time to strike, NOW is the time for independence. Not next year, mibbes, if the English pretendy ‘supreme’ court ‘allows’ it, but NOW.

I just want independence for Scotland. I want out of this English colonial sh*tshow. I do not care how or who gets us it, I just want independence, and away from this corrupt craven, colonial, bullying, theiving, criminal English colonial governance.

I look forward to seeing Nicola Sturgeon at the indy march in Edinburgh tomorrow. Aye, right! An utter fraud, if ever their was one. She’ll probably phone London for ‘permission’.

Robert Louis

Oh breeks at 0420am,

Possibly your best post ever. I like that last sentence;

“If the Claim of Right can remove a King from his throne, it can remove a charlatan and betrayer from her seat.”

John Main

@Breeks says:29 September, 2022 at 4:20 am

“If the Claim of Right can remove a King from his throne, it can remove a charlatan and betrayer from her seat.”

Maybes, Breeks. A lot of heavy lifting being done by that “If” though.

Sure and isn’t there a poem and/or song called “If”?

That’s a work of fiction too.

Robert Louis

If we genuinely had a pro indy leader in Scotland, they would this very day, announce an indy referendum by the end of this year. Then sit back and watch as the money markets in London crash. It is called leverage.

I hope their is a good turnout in Edinburgh on Saturday, for the independence march.

Thinking of breeks comment at 0420am, to paraphrase the declaration of Abrborath;

‘..Yet if she should give up what she has begun, seeking to make us or our country subject to the rule of England or the English, we should exert ourselves at once to drive her out as our enemy and a subverter of her own right and ours, and make some other Scot who was well able to defend us our leader…’

Independence for Scotland by ANY means, with or without the SNP and Sturgeon.

John Main

Our resident over-achiever, Hatuey, makes his predictions above.

I’ll make mine.

The Tories have nailed shut their own coffin with Truss inside it. She won’t be resurrected, even given a national emergency of 1940’s proportions.

Starmer is in next, mostly because it’s … erm, his turn, but also because see Truss above, etc. etc.

The tide of SNP support in Scotland being on the ebb, some voters will simply follow the fashion and turn to Labour, which is going to be polished up to look bright and shiny and new, and will have “learned from the mistakes of the past”.

Will this be the result of “BBC propaganda”, or will it simply be sovereign Scots using their votes as they see fit? I predict 5 years of interminable wrangling BTL on here, or on its successors.

Look on the bright side. Maybes Blackford, and some of the other ones few can name, will be sent hamewards, tae think again.

John Main

@Robert Louis says:29 September, 2022 at 7:08 am

“sit back and watch as the money markets in London crash”

You left out the bit about the popcorn, Bob.

Here’s the thing. When/if the money markets crash, millions of Scots will see their savings/pensions/investments wiped out.

Not a problem if you sit in your bedroom, posting fatuous comments online all day, although even somebody in that lucky situation might want to ponder where their benefits come from.

But for many of us Scots, as the over-achieving Hatuey observes above, it’s a wee bit more complicated.

Now, obviously, I am prepared to live the rest of my life in an unheated hovel, subsisting on oatmeal and water, if that is what it will take to gain Scotland’s freedom.

But I don’t presume to speak for anybody else.

Luigi

I don’t think the current weak SNP leadership is against an independence referendum per se. It just seems to be that it (and one woman in particular) is terrified of losing one and has no idea how to win one. Bad combination. The only option is to scrabble about looking for something easy to be decisive about. Someone easy to pick on.GRA, climate change anyone?

Willie

So that’s it.

No amount of votes, no amount of mandate, no amount of public opinion, in fact nothing at all will give Scotland its independence save the agreement of England.

Or at least that is what this freak Hunter at the heart of the SNP commend clique says.

So what then is the reason for voting for the SNP.

Time we cleared the SNP out. And you know what that is about to become reality. Real resentment against the useless non delivering SNP is now building across the electorate.

I say this too as an ex 37 year member.

Rab Davis

Sturgeon should face up to the reality that the SNP are a busted flush,,and wrap up the Party Conference next week with this appropriate little jingle from Nat King Cole.

“The Party’s Over”.

youtu.be/pJdjm0GERcg

Very apt lyrics.

“The party’s over
It’s time to call it a day
They’ve burst your pretty balloon
And taken the moon away
It’s time to wind up the masquerade
Just make your mind up the piper must be paid

The party’s over
The candles flicker and dim
You danced and dreamed through the night
It seemed to be right just being with him
Now you must wake up, all dreams must end
Take off your makeup, the party’s over
It’s all over, my friend.”

Chas

The majority of posters on here realise that Sturgeon and the SNP are the ones preventing the push for Independence. The SNP under achievers are simply too comfortable in their troughs and have ready made excuses for their many disasters. All of them are themes on ‘it is all Westminster’s fault’. Lots of people in Scotland currently believe that!

If Independence is somehow miraculously achieved in the short term. say the next 5-10 years, it will be with the SNP running the show. This scenario is just as frightening as the current Tory shambles in Westminster.

There is no ready answer. I see few people within the political sphere in Scotland, from any Party, whom I would trust to run a successful Independent Scotland. I won’t mention MONEY as this seems to upset those with tartan blood in their veins. I do however suspect that the lack of it, over the coming years, might influence their thoughts.

70% of the electorate have no real interest in ‘Politics’ other than what they are fed by the media. A significant number do not even bother to vote.

There are 2 main issues before the real Independence movement
1) How to get rid of Sturgeon. When she goes the SNP will disintegrate
2) How do we influence the media to report the reality of how things currently stand in Scotland.

Mr Salmond is on record saying he has the ammo to achieve the first. Now is as good a time as any to use it. Although I do accept that ‘timing’ is crucial.

The second is more difficult. Stu does his very best but unfortunately his target audience is limited. If he had a weekly column in one of the National newspapers, this would help but who would employ him?

Of course we could always bleat on here endlessly about 300 year old treaties etc, in which only a very small number are remotely interested.

Solutions have to be practical and realistic. I don’t see any on here. All I see is wishful thinking and desperation.

Ian McCubbin

Well at last the evidence of federal state. The only hope for Independence now is Alba and ISP rising and gaining seats in councils and Holyrood. Independence is now back 10 years as these parties will take time to reach a majority.

revjimbob

I was pleasantly surprised when the SNP declared that the election would be a de-facto referendum. Of course I assumed that meant declaring independence if won. I underestimated the timidity of the modern SNP. God help us.

Gayle

Mhairi Hunter’s comment tells you that she does not understand international norms. Nor what it means to be sovereign. These 2 basics should see her removed from office as she cannot perform the primary obligations of her job as a Scottish government representative.

Her comment basically states that a sovereign nation state party to a binary international treaty must have consent from its treaty partner to denounce the treaty it is party to.

This first of all ignores the inalienable sovereign right of states which entitles every state party to a treaty to unilaterally denounce said treaty, a right which is further enshrined in the VC and UN Charter among others, and that as a sovereign nation state Scotland has the ultimate/supreme authority which means no act, government or court of England (whether classed as WM/UK or otherwise) has any say on the matter or any matter pertaining to Scotland.

The reason why she makes this ridiculous claim is because many folk genuinely do not understand what it means to be sovereign or Scotland’s true status. She hopes that folk will simply take her comment at face value and believe it as they have done when the Scottish gov (MPs) claim that their devolved admin (MSPs) has authority over them but is beholden to the English (WM/UK) Government, their mere treaty partner. This lie is told so often that Scots repeat the claim when they say, in the same breath, that Scots are sovereign (have supreme authority) – a claim backed up in law – but Scottish matters are reserved to their treaty partner – England (WM/UK).

It has been abundantly clear for many years that SNP have no intention of suspending the treaty let alone denouncing it. Scots need to completely bypass their government who do not even recognise themselves as the government of the sovereign state of Scotland (this is the real difference between Scotland and England. The English government, political parties and establishment do recognise themselves as the government of the sovereign state of England. It is why they will always band together despite political differences. At the end of the day the sovereignty of England is sacrosanct. Scotland on the otherhand doesn’t even know the difference between their government and their admin and where each sits let alone where authority lies.)

Perhaps understanding these aspects will stop Scottish representatives from pretending they are powerless to act on any matter as Scots will finally hold them fully to account.

As said above, it is time to bypass the SNP Scottish government. They are happy to sit bak and watch the destruction of Scotland and its people so long as they personally benefit from the status quo. The Act of Salvo has been enacted and the Proclamation of Edinburgh made. Now to take it to the next level and get it internationally recognised.

Andy Ellis

It’s been obvious for a while that the current SNP is to all intents and purposes a devolutionary party. It’s become the IPP, but without even their stomach for disrupting Westminster. Echoing what some others are saying above, the only way the movement will make progress in the short to medium term is if the SNP rank and file membership reclaim their party from the Sturgeonite cabal. The precedent of the failed attempt to cleanse the NEC the other November is hardly encouraging in that regard.

Only a revitalised SNP which accepts that it has to work in concert with other pro independence parties and accepts that a majority of 50% + 1 votes (NOT MPs or MSPs!) is a de facto Declaration of Independence, not just yet another mandate for another referendum, is capable of delivering the result we want in a reasonable timescale. Destroying the SNP or trying to replace it the way Sinn Fein replaced the IPP isn’t going to happen quickly.

The onus is on current SNP members and supporters to act: either they cleanse their party, or defect. If they don’t, we can assume they are intensely relaxed about independence being delayed for the “real” generation yoons keep banging on about. The responsibility for that doesn’t lie with the British nationalists, it lies with the SNP. Time for their members to put up, or shut up.

James Che

Rab Davis,

Sorry I did not respond to you yesterday, got very busy sawing wood, with hubby.

It does not matter about the snp or NS running the english devolved in Scotland we are well aware of the historical MO since 2014, It is globalist in its actions.

Unless you have a fairy wand it ain’t gonna change, changing your lead horse does not change the carriage it is pulling.
And its the carriage that is the dead weight.

I tend not to look at the smaller details in this case, but at the bigger problem,
It is short sighted to believe that the devolved government will suddenly change into a Scottish government if we change the leader,
All leaders of parties swear an oath to the Crown, upon entering the devolved government to work wether SNP, tories or labour, lib dems.

All parties we vote for are supposed to represent the Scots whom voted for them,
The Scottish people are Sovereign.
All the political party members in the devolved government abandon you or I as our represenatives as soon as they swear an oath to the crown,
They then represent the British government and king Charles.
Not Scots or Scotland.

James Che

Rab Davis,

That is why you will never hear a union man or woman in Scotland shouting Out with the Devolved government,

Everyone who shouts “off with her head” (metaphorically) at NS is only wanting to be leader for themselves,
those that do best at stopping Scottish independence from the devolved government get rewards, not from the Scottish people, but from England, then they can collect their ermine and titles from Westminster.
Or a high globalist office after they leave as leader of Scotland,

That should tell you all you need to know about the devolved government not representing Scotland or its people.

Changing leaders for another just as like minded, in the same government structure will not help Scotland,
As the laws and the method of the Structure in Scotland are not Scottish.

James Che

Scott,

Hi, I apologise that I couldn’t respond to you earlier Re “it does not matter who is leader in the devolved government in Scotland.”

It doesn’t,

It it still a english government that was is partially devolved to Scotland for management branch office purposes.
Any one that enters that building and swears an oath to the crown, ( No matter who it is) immediately is working for king Charles government, and throwing away yours and my Scottish Sovereignty as our representitives,

Thus They have no intention of gaining Independence for Scots and Scotland.

Republicofscotland

BBC radio Shortbread aka radio Scotland, bumming up Sturgeon’s performance at FMQs today. Sturgeon dodged difficult question on the ferries fiasco, and the price Scots pay for energy, instead she focused on the PMs mini-budget.

You know whose side your FMs on when the oppositions main propaganda and state broadcaster takes her side.

The UK government are in turmoil yet again, and our treacherous FM still won’t get us out of this union. It’s obvious that she isn’t interested in saving Scots from this awful union, she’s determined to make sure Scots suffer this union for as long as she’s FM.

Republicofscotland

SNP selling off the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum and the City’s Chambers and other assets to pay costs.

link to 12ft.io

Of course, the SNP as a whole has wasted a hundred of million of Scottish taxpayer’s cash on the Ferries fiasco, and roughly £10 million on trying to imprison Salmond, not to mention other irregularities.

James Che

I have nothing against the monarchy in general,
But monarchy should be a little better behaved than the British monarchy have been,
In Scotland we are supposed to hold the monarchy to account as we are Sovereign,
But our monarchy have had dodgy dealings and characters for a good length of time.
If you swear oaths and allegiance’s to a monarch in the Scottish devolved government then you are stating that you have no wish to be sovereign to hold them to account in Scotland.
All that enter the devolved government give Scottish their sovereignty away.
As a represenitives of your scottish sovereignty, how do you feel about any Scottish independence party doing this to you?

Cnoc y Dorth

Rev. stu – I’m glad you’re still writing these posts despite the fact that they’re so depressing.

I’m not an expert but I think the Catalunyan situation is an interesting parallel. Spain is a very young state in its current iteration and people’s cultural identity there is quite complicated – but it’s very clear that destabilizing one of the constituent members of the EU was completely unacceptable to many other states. It’s illogical to presume that the UK will be willing to let Scotland leave the union at any point in the next 20 years. The passage of time might change things – younger generations are much more pro-independence, and a large majority (of 60-70%?) would be more difficult to refuse – but that’s one heck of a gamble to take when you’ve had a series of terrible governments.

I think the SNP should just campaign for the next election with the clear stance that they’ll unilaterally declare independence if they win a majority of the vote. I think I could write the manifesto for them – it would go like this: ‘Do you really think Scotland would be worse off as an independent country than as part of a state that has followed Boris Johnson’s government with Liz Truss?’ As a government, they could ask public services and all organizations to start contingency planning for this eventuality.

Like you’ve suggested repeatedly, the SNP have a clear democratic mandate to declare independence now – a far stronger mandate than the Truss government has. The current situation will inevitably lead to the fracturing of the independence movement. But from the outside it looks as if some SNP MPs /MSP’s have been dazzled by the comfort of their political lifestyle and have forgotten why they were elected into power in the first place.

Merganser

To be sung at the SNP conference to the tune of Joseph Haydn’s ‘Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser’:

Glorious things that she has spoken,
All from Nicola she’s our God.
Promises that have been broken,
We don’t really give a sod.
Plastic fannies
For the trannies
What are women? We won’t say.
Salmond busted,
Ferries Rusted,
Independence? Not today

James Che

Did A S, swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen when he entered the devolved government as first minster?

If So, why did he offer up Scottish peoples Sovereignty to the Crown?

This is the problem of our voted for Scottish representatives, they sell “theirs” and our Scottish Sovereignty for a seat of position in a english constructed devolved government,

This is what happened in 1706/ 1707,
Why are they so proud to sit in english constructed parliaments and readily give up their integrity. and honour.

Same reasons I suppose, they feel inadequate as a Scot in their self esteem.

James Che

It is all very well king Charles recognising the Scottish claim of Right as in the political treaty of the union, in his assession speech,

Then taken that Claim of Right back from the Sovereign Scottish people through the structure of the devolved government members swearing a oath of allegiance to him through the back door.

Playing Smoke and mirrors with Scots Sovereignty.

Hatuey

Andy Ellis, you put a lot of emphasis on the rank and file SNP membership doing something to remove the current leadership and getting things back on course.

When other people suggest things like that you ask for details of how it can happen and a timeframe.

So, please provide details of how you think that might happen and a timeframe.

Please don’t consider that an invitation to inject more flimflam.

James Che

Coverts, and the converted.

We go to the polling stations and vote, to lend our sovereignty.
We vote in our chosen representatives of what we want and how we feel. With that sovereignty.
The winning candidates you chose promise you all your dreams to come true near enough.
Off they trot down to holyrood parliament with your lent Sovereignty.
When they arrive, the first thing they do is betray you by giving your lent sovereignty to the Crown, through an oath of allegiance,
They are no longer obliged to follow your mandates, but to follow the Crowns,
The Crown sits in Westminster parliament.
Your scots Sovereignty has now completed its transition as given.
Scots Sovereignty is now under the english Westminster parliament.

The fault lies with the UKs insistence that all whom become a member of the devolved government in Scotland must swear allegiance to the Crown.

No one in the devolved government in Scotland is now obliged to follow your Scottish Sovereign vote.
It has been lent and tranferred down south.

James Che

Through the mechanisms of the devolved governments oath of allegiance to the monarchy crown in Westminster the Scots will never get what they vote for.

The problem is not just the snp’s willingness or any other political for that matter to be a ("Tractor" - Ed) to the Scottish voter, it is the insistence of the Westminster construction in Scotland that insists this is done to the Scottish voter.

robertkknight

I’d love to say I believe the SNP in their claim to be better for Scotland and pro-Indy.

Unfortunately, I’m currently occupied picking up some stuffing that appears to be falling from the back of my head. I must be missing a button somewhere.

Anyone got a hand-held mirror I can borrow? I can’t quite see where the problem is…

Ruby

link to twitter.com

Well said that woman!

Alf Baird

James Che @ 3:44 pm

“The Crown sits in Westminster parliament”

And Scottish Ministers are ‘agents’ of the Crown, which helps explain why we are going nowhere near independence with SNP elected ‘nationalist’ majorities.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey 3.12 pm

Andy Ellis, you put a lot of emphasis on the rank and file SNP membership doing something to remove the current leadership and getting things back on course.

When other people suggest things like that you ask for details of how it can happen and a timeframe.

So, please provide details of how you think that might happen and a timeframe.

Please don’t consider that an invitation to inject more flimflam.

There’s no flim flam involved in my original post, but I wouldn’t expect any other response from you and your ilk naturally.

The SNP membership are the only ones capable of doing the job of changing the SNP in the “reasonable” short to medium terms timescale (absent Sturgeon and her cabal being barred from office or jailed for som reason….and good luck with that!), because the only other way is to wait for the electorate to use their votes to give the party a bloody nose. Sadly, lots will still vote for them even if Sturgeon and her team are still in charge.

I have very little faith that “cunning plans for indy” will produce results in the short to medium term, however hard their proponents wish otherwise. Of course I may be proven wrong and will happily eat humble pie and admit my egregious error if Salvo and/or SSRG or anyone else waft us to the sunny uplands of independence in 2023.

In fact, I’d say it’s probably more likely that the SNP will be changed from within as a result of electoral set backs at the next GE (whether its HR or WM) than it is that “cunning plans” will bear fruit, but if that’s how things play out we’re already talking about what then happens after the election which could be a few years away.

As I’ve said before, I’d love Sturgeon (or an SNP without Sturgeon if that could be arranged) to deliver an ultimatum that the refusal of a S30 order would result in her resigning as FM and precipitating early plebiscitary HR elections, by which I mean real plebiscitary elections where 50% + 1 votes equals de facto independence, not just a mandate for another referendum. Sadly I don’t see that happening absent some political earthquake. Sturgeon isn’t ever going to do that, and I have my doubts the SNP without Sturgeon would do it either.

So that leaves us in the hands of the SNP membership. They’re the only ones in a position to effect change before the next scheduled GE. If that doesn’t happen, and assuming there is no deus ex machina in the form of a political crisis which presents us with a better opportunity, then the alternative is to do to the SNP what Sinn Fein did to the IPP. Timescale wise I think we’re looking at 5 years minimum.

Different alternative futures are of course available.

Wee Chid

MaggieC says:
28 September, 2022 at 4:14 pm
Rev Stu,

“Just to let you know that I’ve not received an email about this post, I wonder if this has happened to anyone else ?”

I didn’t get one either.

James Che

Alf Baird.

Precisely so Alf,

So independence will never come to Scotland through the devolved government or any sworn in members to the Crown regardless of party or political leaders, they no longer hold allegiance to the Scots in Scotland.

This is something that all of us are just beginning to realise,
The structual instrument of the the devolved government converts the Scottish Sovereign vote to englands parliament automatically the Crown and through our representative betraying us upon entering holyrood devolved parliament.

Effijy

SNP selling off the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum and the City’s Chambers and other assets to pay costs.

Strange non of the U.K. media outlets care to mention this is Labour’s bill as it was they who paid for layers to fight for 10 years to stop equal pay for women.

Even SNP spokesperson did like to lay the blame for this where it belongs.
What are they using for brains?

Skip_NC

James Che @ 2:15pm Alex Salmond’s oath is at link to youtube.com

If a foreign government imposes a particular oath on another parliament, it seems to me that there there is very little the major opposition party can do, other than what the SNP under Alex Salmond did then.

Derek

“John Main says:
29 September, 2022 at 6:57 am

Sure and isn’t there a poem and/or song called “If”?”

There is; a poem by Kipling. “If you can keep your head when all around you are losing theirs…” and so on.

It was also the basis of a very good logic/poetry cartoon in Private Eye recently.

Rab Davis

Ruby 5.39pm

Eddie izzard is NOT a wummin???

Well my flabber is well and truly gasted.

And all these years I could have sworn Mrs Izzard was woman,,,She looked so genuine.

ronnie anderson

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but LIZ G ( wings over scotland stall ) passed away this morning . She’ll be sadly missed RIP LIZ .

Rab Davis

I would like to hope that some good comes out of the impending crash in the economy.

Could it be the dynamite that is laid under the arses of our comotose Scottish electorate and drive them into the arms of the Scottish independence movement.

The problem with that Idea is that you need a strong Indy leader who is going to light the touch paper and lead the Indy charge.

Unfortunately our leader is the worst Indy leader in living memory,,,,and going by her track record, will probably miss this gaping open goal.

If, by any chance there is any SNP member reading this post,,,, will you be brave enough to take to the floor at next week’s SNP Conference and tell Sturgeon her time is up,,, that you and your fellow members have absolutely NO confidence left in her leadership and she must resign at the earliest opportunity.

Please,, just one of you grow a pair,,, Scotland is depending on you.

John Main

James Che

There is nothing “the crown” can do to stop the people of Scotland, duly represented by their chosen political leaders, from declaring an iScotland.

NOTHING

Just at there was nothing “the crown” could do to stop the UK joining the EEC.

NOTHING

And nothing “the crown” could do to stop WM ratifying the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties.

NOTHING NOTHING

Nothing “the crown” could do to stop Brexit.

NOTHING

Nothing to stop the Iraq war, blowing up of sorely needed coal-fired power stations, Covid in house imprisonment, the establishment of the Hollyrood house for pointless gentlefolk, or Blundertruss tanking the pound.

NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING

The Crown does not have any control over the democratic process in the UK, nor in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales.

It’s a simple enough concept to grasp.

Hatuey

I specifically requested no flimflam.

He gave me flimflam.

You almost arrived at the essential truth of the situation but pulled back at the last minute, Andy…

Independence isn’t possible through the ballot box. Actually it’s even bleaker than that — the ballot box isn’t possible through the ballot box.

Scottish politics is a rigged deck.

John Main

@ Merganser says:29 September, 2022 at 2:13 pm

Great lyrics.

I don’t know the music you name, but in ma heid, I tried “Ode To Joy” from Beethoven’s ninth and it seemed to fit well.

And, after catching some of our glorious leader’s performance at FM questions today, Ode To Joy is what may have been elevating my heart rate and blurring my vision.

Maybes.

Dan

@ John Main

Queen’s lawyers secured amendment to Scottish green energy law

link to bbc.co.uk

Brian Doonthetoon

Hi ronnie anderson at 6:55 pm.

You let us know,
“Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but LIZ G ( wings over scotland stall ) passed away this morning . She’ll be sadly missed RIP LIZ.”

That’s a shock! She always struck me as ‘hale and hearty’. She’ll be missed WHEN we, eventually, get the WOS stall back in action.

Dan

Ach Ronnie, really sorry to read that sad news about Liz. 🙁
I’d noticed she hadn’t been commenting recently. She was always a friendly face to chat to at the Wings stalls, and she also wrote many a decent and balanced post btl here on Wings.
May she rest in peace.

Brian Doonthetoon

Craig Murray’s written a fairly good summation of why the SNP had to submit an intervention to the SC case, which, kinda, contradicts Bain’s submission.

link to craigmurray.org.uk

Rab Davis

Brainwave!!!

What if we all RE-JOIN the SNP.

We then put forward a vote of no confidence in the present leader,and then pick a leader of our choosing.

Or doesn’t it work like that anymore?

Back to square one!!!

Dan

@ Rab Davis

A few of years back I suggested it would be an easier / better option due to lower membership numbers for folk to join and takeover Labour in Scotland and actually turn them into a Pro Scottish Indy Labour Party.

John Main

@Hatuey says:29 September, 2022 at 7:34 pm

“Independence isn’t possible through the ballot box”

Let me correct that one.

The specific flavour of Independence that appeals to Hatuey isn’t possible through the ballot box, because a stubborn and recalcitrant 50% of Scots want no part of it.

Assuming that Hatuey, as resident over-achiever on here, speaks for many, that leaves the Indy movement with a choice.

Expand the constituency of Scots who will vote yes by changing the flavour of Indy on offer. For example, bring the monarchists on board by toning down the hysterical republicanism. Stop insisting that a vote for Indy is a vote for EU federalism, by toning down the Brexit hysterics. Get some Scottish Tories on side by appealing to their natural, human desire to get on in the world and stop insisting that iScotland will be a shirkers paradise where the feckless end up with the same as the grafters.

OR

Continue on the same losing path for the next decade, endlessly insisting that only the ideologically purist strain of Indy is acceptable.

It’s 97% inevitable which choice Hatuey goes for. But for the rest of the usual suspects on here, there may still be hope.

Breeks

Brian Doonthetoon says:
29 September, 2022 at 7:41 pm

That’s a shock! She always struck me as ‘hale and hearty’. She’ll be missed WHEN we, eventually, get the WOS stall back in action.

Liz G? Oh no. I always liked and appreciated her comments on here. Genuinely sorry to hear that.

Breeks

Rab Davis says:
29 September, 2022 at 7:46 pm
Brainwave!!!

What if we all RE-JOIN the SNP.

What if we joined ALBA and SALVO instead…

Merganser

John Main @ 7.39pm

The tune is known also as ‘Austria’. It is the music to the German National Anthem as well as the well known hymn ‘glorious things of thee are spoken’ by John Newton.

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey

Talking of flim flam……

Independence isn’t possible through the ballot box. Actually it’s even bleaker than that — the ballot box isn’t possible through the ballot box.

Utter bollocks of course, but hardly unexpected given your MO. It’s not going to be achieved except via the ballot box. The fact some people are enamoured with the “cunning plan for indy” route doesn’t mean it’s going to produce results.

Rab Davis

Breeks

Yes, in an ideal world ALBA would be the way to go.

I was thinking more in the immediate future,,, Sturgeon is the roadblock that needs cleared out of the way right now.

I’m just going through different scenarios as to best unseat Sturgeon within the next year or so.

I am already a fully paid up member of ALBA, but they are more of a wake call to the troughers of the SNP in the short term.

Sturgeon holds nearly all the cards,,,not them all,,, that is why we need to keep thinking of different ways of ending her reign of terror.

One day, one of our ideas will do the trick,,, God loves a trier.

John Main

@Dan says:29 September, 2022 at 7:41 pm

@ John Main

“Queen’s lawyers secured amendment to Scottish green energy law”

link to bbc.co.uk

Dan,

Fair point but no knock out blow.

To deliver the KO that flattens my argument, you would have to come up with an example where The Crown worked to stop a democratically arrived at law or plebiscite being put into universal effect.

Simply seeking a personal or institutional exemption to a law is not in the same league.

Here’s another example supporting my argument. The famous call from Cameron to The Queen at which she “purred with pleasure” at being told No had won.

If the vote had gone the other way, she may well have howled with grief, but DC would still have been calling her up to tell her what was going to happen, whether she liked it or naw.

In summary, “The Crown” can no more stop us Scots becoming independent than can the 1745 Duke of Cumberland.

And it’s ludicrous to maintain otherwise.

Chas

Andy Ellis

Whilst I admire your tenacity in continually responding to the oddballs and the nutters give yourself a break and let them wallow in their deluded self importance.

Although I have to admit that the latest drivel ‘Independence is not possible via the ballot box’ is up there with the best of the tripe they post.

Did you not know the fairies will bring it very soon. Mind you I see a few on here that are ‘away with the fairies!

Andy Ellis

@Brian

Craig Murray’s written a fairly good summation of why the SNP had to submit an intervention to the SC case, which, kinda, contradicts Bain’s submission.

Seconded. Powerful stuff from Craig: shows the SNP up as the devolusionists they really are.

McDuff

You have told it exactly as it is rev and it makes me sick to my stomach.
I do drone on about this but i still don`t understand why there isn`t a rebellion amongst at least some in the SNP at this betrayal. Are they all so shallow and base that they are just in it for the money and don`t give a sod for independence.

Merganser

Brian @ 7.44

Craig’s article is well worth a read.

I have been posting for weeks that the Plebs Biscuity election is a con and will achieve nothing but bums back on seats for the SNP troughers, and this article spells out why that is the case.

I hope more people (including Andy Ellis) will now see the trap they have fallen into , and stop promoting it as the way forward.

Dorothy Devine

Ronnie , so sorry to hear that like Brian I thought of her as full of energy and she was the woman who halved my ironing in one piece of advice – go crumpled ,body heat will deal with the worst wrinkly bits in the clothes ,( obviously!).

christine

This is a calculated betrayal, in plain sight, that still feels shocking to me. Like many others, I spent so much time, energy and money in campaigning for a political party which was mandated to “ get Independence done “. The SNP is now known to be a complete sham- “ a thing that is not what it is purported to be “.

Sturgeon has presided over a litany of abject failures in governance. As a failed lawyer, she was found guilty of professional misconduct and a dereliction of duty in respect of a client who was a victim of domestic abuse. How can a “ feminist to her fingertips “, in her own words, fail to protect a vulnerable and distressed woman in need of legal protection?

She has failed to listen to the legitimate and serious concerns about womens’ rights and safe spaces ( not valid, it seems ) , endangered by the mindless progressivism of the SNP’s fetishistic, deviant and downright dangerous GRA ideology.

I am ashamed and horrified in equal measure the Sturgeon believes that children have the capacity to understand and consent to life changing medication and mutilation at the Sandyford Clinic in Glasgow. Her GRA poison is seeping into our schools.

She conspired to “ get “ Alex Salmond and others. The never ending list goes on. How much more will her loyal voting fodder thole? A scots word meaning endure, something the scots seem to excel at.

In Dante’s Inferno, the deepest circle of hell was reserved for the Judases, the betrayers.

wull

Very sorry to hear about Liz G. May she rest in peace.

Great lyrics Merganser. Thank you.

Andy Ellis

@Merganser 9.17 pm

I don’t accept it’s a trap. Plebiscitary elections (real ones, not the SNP’s milquetoast version as preparation for asking for another mandate) are the only route to achieving independence in the short to medium term.

There isn’t going to be a referendum, and putting faith in “cunning plans for indy” is just magical thinking unless you already have an overwhelming majority in support.

That *might* happen at some point in the future and we can do to the SNP what Sinn Fein did to the IPP, but people who place their faith in methods other than the ballot box are punting independence in to the long grass.

John Main

@Andy Ellis says:29 September, 2022 at 9:40 pm

“people who place their faith in methods other than the ballot box”

IMO it’s always the same one or two perps.

Each time I read one of their posts, I see an image of Viz’s Big Vern “getting the toys aht”.

My bad. The reality is no laughing matter.

Merganser

Christine @ 9.32.

Inferno, the first book of the Divine Comedy. The Sturgeon government is a comedy, but there is nothing divine about it. Circles 8 and 9 represent Fraud and Treachery. Enough said.

Will Scotland progress through purgatory and paradise and eventually see the light? Only when the fraudsters and the betrayers are removed.

Breastplate

Very sad news about Liz G, my condolences to her loved ones.

Merganser

Andy Ellis @ 9.17

At last you see the point: Sturgeon’s ‘de facto referendum’ has no teeth, no point whatsoever on its own and is now admitted to be effectively worthless by Sturgeon’s right hand spokesperson. (Except to get the SNP back in charge for another term)

There is a hope that there is a split starting in the SNP, as Craig indicates, which has tried hard to put a stronger case to the Court for a meaningful, legal referendum, but Sturgeon has pulled the rug on their arguments by publicly conceding what she has and making them make a similar concession.

That split needs to be widened. How much momentum it has will be seen at the forthcoming conference. Fingers crossed.

sarah

Bad news re the SNP intervention in the Scot gov case to the Supreme Court from Craig Murray’s blog today: the SNP intervention was only permitted by N Sturgeon on condition that the SNP explicitly stated that they are NOT arguing that they can secede without Westminster’s permission.

I am speechless. WHAT is the point of the intervention then? And what is the point of Sturgeon?

A glimmer of hope comes from the fact that, per Craig, NS was forced to allow the intervention because about 20 MPs were outraged at the feeble submission by Dorothy Bain. Please God these MPs find some backbone and start opposing the evil ones currently running the party.

Back to the gloom, however – Bain is to pursue some truly frightening pieces of legislation – abolish the non-proven verdict; abolish jury trials in sex assault cases; GRA. Terrifying.

Hatuey

Craig Murray’s latest confirms the point; a referendum on independence isn’t possible through the ballot box as long as Westminster says it isn’t, a plebiscitary election can’t lead to independence without Westminster’s consent, and here’s the best bit; it isn’t Westminster that’s saying all that, it’s the so-called party of independence.

The most “cunning” and far-fetched moon-howling plan for independence that currently exists is officially the idea that it’s possible by conventional means through the ballot box.

That might change but at the moment and for as far ahead into the future as I am able to reasonably predict, I don’t see where the change is likely to come from.

Feel free to enlighten me, but I bet you can’t do so without stringing together a bunch of things that don’t seem possible or very likely right now. In other words, I bet you can’t do it without entering into the realms of pure fantasy.

Like I said, Scottish politics is a rigged deck.

twathater

Like others posting I was sorry to hear of Liz G’s passing and I pay respect to her loved ones , the good thing about Liz is she stood for no nonsense , she was down to earth and appreciated the fact that others didn’t always agree with things that were being proposed but never failed to put her point across diplomatically , INDY has lost another WARRIOR

McDuff

Craig Murray.
That’s about it.

John Main

Next UK General Election could be as late as January 2025, so still two and a bit years away.

Next HR election could be as late as May 2026, so still three and a half years away.

Anybody claiming there can’t be any changes to the political landscape in Scotland over these time periods is effectively saying there is something politically wrong with us.

Because in other European countries, these time scales allow for the emergence, growth, and assumption of office by new groups, parties and politicians. And the adoption of quite radically new policies.

The new PM of Italy being just the latest of that ilk.

Are we really believing that in the next three and a half years of perma-crisis, the political logjam at HR will remain ummoved? The same, tired and discredited faces will shout meaningless insults at each other, day after day? The same half-hearted apologies for ineptitude, laziness and low-level corruption will be tholed by us Scots?

Naw. Seems most unlikely to me.

Ian Brotherhood

Condolences to everyone who knew and campaigned with Liz G.

🙁

Ruby

link to tinyurl.com

“Do you think you are smarter? What’s your tiny age?” His father thundered as his mother timidly scooped him out of the scene and sent him out to play.

One day, the boy saw a gathering at a distance. He climbed up a tree and spotted the flag of the royal chariot jutting up above the crowd . He heard horses gallop in unison and people chatter with excitement. “The Royal procession!!”, the boy said excitedly. He swiftly jumped down the tree and ran towards the crowd to see the king.

After squeezing his way through the crowd, he was finally able to find place in the front row of the gathering,

Lo and Behold!! The Emperor was perched on the chariot puffed up in pride. He was stark naked! He had a grandiose smile on his face. People showered songs of praise. The clergy clapped. The procession moved forward slowly with trumpets playing and horses trotting in a rhythmic ‘clippety clop’.

Someone whispered “Clothes can only be seen by people who are clever”

I often feel a bit like the child in this story in that I get a sense that something isnae right.

For example I questioned why Dorothy Bain didn’t know what the law was vis-à-vis Holyrood holding a referendum and had to ask the SC. It turns out she didn’t know the law or was pretending she didn’t know the law.

Again with the ‘de facto referendum’ my gut feeling was something no right about that. It seems more & more people are coming to that conclusion.

Way back when Mark MacDonald was fired for sending a text I was highly suspicious of Sturgeon. Turns out I was correct to be suspicious.

“Clothes can only be seen by people who are clever”

I’m going to stick with my gut feelings ‘cos I don’t want to start seeing clothes that aren’t there.

There are advantages to being ‘pork’ as in ‘you can’t educate pork’ a phrase often used by Andy Ellis to describe me.

X_Sticks

ronnie anderson says 6:55 pm

“Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but LIZ G ( wings over scotland stall ) passed away this morning . She’ll be sadly missed RIP LIZ”

Very sad and unexpected news Ronnie, I heard last night from Gillian. Liz always seemed to be in good health when we were doing the Wings stall, but of course it’s been quite a while since we’ve all been together. She will be missed. Condolences to all who have been touched by her passing.

jockmcx

T’is over…now…if theres no action…if theres no rage..now.

T’is done….goodbye and good luck…..slaves!

Ruby

Chas says:
29 September, 2022 at 8:46 pm

Andy Ellis

Whilst I admire your tenacity in continually responding to the oddballs and the nutters give yourself a break and let them wallow in their deluded self importance.

It would appear you are asking the impossible. How would you explain Ellis taking a “time out” from ignoring me to post these two mile long posts?

See

link to wingsoverscotland.com

link to wingsoverscotland.com

These ‘Apartheid Boys’ as I call them made the decision to ignore all ‘the oddballs and the nutters’ a week or so ago but they don’t seem to be able to carry it through.

Mark Boyle has either decided that everyone is an ‘oddballs or a nutter’ or is now using a different moniker.

What about you Chas are you one of ‘Apartheid Boys’ are your posts exclusively for Andy Ellis, John Main
& Mark Boyle?

Looking forward to your reply to this ‘oddball & nutter’s’ post?

Andy Ellis

@John Main 9.55 pm

I reckon you’re right. The “cunning plans for indy” mob represent a fraction of those who are actively engaged in Scots politics, whether on sites like this and/or in conventional politics via parties, Yes groups or other interest groups. Oddly they seem to have somehow convinced themselves that they have traction in the broader movement and in the general population and that their desired outcomes will happen because *reasons*.

Andy Ellis

@Merganser 10.24 pm

At last you see the point: Sturgeon’s ‘de facto referendum’ has no teeth, no point whatsoever on its own and is now admitted to be effectively worthless by Sturgeon’s right hand spokesperson. (Except to get the SNP back in charge for another term)

Well no, because as Stu just finished pointing out it wasn’t clear at the time the SNP first announced their change of policy what they *actually* planned. Just as there was confusion at the time about whether they meant a majority of seats and/or a majority of seats, it now seems clear that their view is that a victory in a plebiscitary election is just another mandate to add to the mandate cupboard.
It makes you wonder if the policy was made up on the hoof. If, as Craig Murray claims, there was a rebellion by 20 or so SNP MPs, then it would explain the half baked nature of the announcement.

Whether those MPs or enough (any?) of the membership have the political cojones to challenge Sturgeon and her cabal remains to be seen. Experience to date would suggest not, but who knows. I wouldn’t bet the farm on it. I suspect things will have to get a lot worse before the scales fall from the eyes of the ultra loyal or those that are just lumpen supporters or the types who keep banging on about “eyes on the prize, why can’t well just have a group hug and sort things out after we win”.

I suspect most of us agree that there isn’t going to be another referendum any time soon, even if we disagree on little else. That being so, the $64,000 question is what we think is going to happen over the next few years, and what path has the best chance of delivering independence in the short to medium term.

It seems clear to me: the only way it’ll happen is if the SNP leadership is changed, and the movement forces early “real” plebiscitary elections. Failing that, an unreformed SNP has to be tackled head on and replaced as the engine of the independence movement, which I’d suggest is a much longer task.

If you have a quicker alternative that doesn’t involve fanciful plans for UDI, petitions and routes by-passing ballot boxes altogether…..I’m all ears!

Robert Hughes

” Expand the constituency of Scots who will vote yes by changing the flavour of Indy on offer. For example, bring the monarchists on board by toning down the hysterical republicanism. Stop insisting that a vote for Indy is a vote for EU federalism, by toning down the Brexit hysterics. Get some Scottish Tories on side by appealing to their natural, human desire to get on in the world and stop insisting that iScotland will be a shirkers paradise where the feckless end up with the same as the grafters. ”

Not sure about the last part of this statement – is anyone ” insisting iScotland will be a shirkers paradise ” John ? Can’t say I’ve noticed if they have .

The rest is sound advice .

The assumption an automatic return to EU membership in an iScotland is a guaranteed YES vote-winner is , at best , questionable . It could be the case it will only be the position of already confirmed Indy supporters ; but could be a deterrent to the crucial * undecideds * ? ” Could ” being the operative word , but why risk it ? Was the position previously not that such a decision would be put to a Referendum ? That seems to have been sidelined , replaced by an EU membership act of faith

Republicanism ( my own preference ) might be the ideal – is it not about time the notion of dynastic privilege / superiority went they way of Divine Right ? But , again , is it worth the potential foot-shooting making it a definite intention Post-Indy might entail ?

We might add to this the now carved in stone S.G shibboleth – Immigration Good ( and it’s corollary ie Critics of Immigration * Racist * ) .

Granted – given Scotland’s * demographic timebomb * of declining birth rates + increasing retirees , the need for some immigration seems inarguable ( let’s forget the OTHER * demographic timebomb * for now ) . Fair enough , but Pre-Indy , it will be necessary to lay-out as clearly and honestly as possible the nature and scale of such immigration ; where they will live ( I hear the area around Bute House is pretty nice ; also Kelvinside , Newton Mearns , in Glasgow ) and the likely impact on Social Services , Housing , NHS etc . Otherwise , this issue too could be a net YES vote-loser .

It’s already the common , public perception that the SNP are the Party of Immigration – and , to be fair , that doesn’t seem to have damaged them electorally , so far : but , come an epochal event like a Scottish Referendum , this question would take on an altogether different complexion .

For the record …..I’m not against Immigration , per se ; I just don’t assume it is an ipso facto , unalloyed good .

See Sweden

Ruby

Hatuey says:
29 September, 2022 at 11:15 pm

That might change but at the moment and for as far ahead into the future as I am able to reasonably predict, I don’t see where the change is likely to come from.

Do you think it’s possible that change will come from people demanding change?
Is jockmcx correct is saying:

T’is over…now…if theres no action…if theres no rage..now.

T’is done….goodbye and good luck…..slaves!

Are people in Scotland just resigned to the fact that we are too wee, too poor, too stupid to do anything. We can’t do anything unless Nicola tells us what to do?

Do we just continue to have these social gatherings where people march about town waving the AUOB flags while being ignored by our politicians & the MSM?

I do believe people have become desensitised to these AUOB marches.

Ruby

A Section 30 is the solution.

Why is everyone focusing on everything other than a Section 30?

Do we really just ‘lie back & think of England’ and accept that it’s OK for Westminster to say no to a Section 30?

Is everyone happy just to be living in a colony being dictated to by Westminster?

What does the rest of the world think of this dictatorial behavior on the part of the UK Government?

I’ll bet nobody outwith Scotland knows anything about this.

Effijy

Did anyone else see the BBC trailer last night were they spent 2-3 minutes suggesting they report from wherever the story is and have it checked.
If you see it on the BBC it’s the truth.

What a sickening piece of propaganda from Westminsters favourite puppet.

How about they make a documentary on Prof John Robertson’s extensive list of how they use
tried and tested methods to make a conjured up stories look like reality.

Chris Darroch

Such a commitment, would serve to hinder or prevent future attempts at independence, as this kind of ruling or understanding would sit there as pending, for as long as the British Govt like it.

Ian Brotherhood

For those who would like the option of accessing RT, it streams here:

link to odysee.com

Republicofscotland

The British propaganda machine the BBC takes over the Kelvinhall in Glasgow with a new studio, ITV owned STV will also use the studio for productions.

The SNP’s Susan Aitken, leader of Glasgow City Council has lauded the move.

shug

Given what Truss is doing to mortgage rates and what Nicola done to the private rented sector by freezing rents, one wonders one wonders if there will be a private rented sector at all.

Talk about rocks and a hard place

Hatuey

Ruby, I have no problem with what jockmcx said above.

I have a problem with those who repeatedly slated and continue to slate all routes to Indy that don’t involve the ballot box and Westminster’s permission. The revelations in this article and Craig Murray’s latest confirm that they were wrong.

I’m a traditionalist when it comes to independence. That means I believe the best way to achieve it is the tried and tested way that most other countries succeeded with.

There is no prospect of a section 30. There is no prospect of the SNP putting up any serious resistance to Westminster’s refusal to facilitate one. And now it’s clear that the “plebiscitary election” route — assuming it involves the SNP — is going to be another waste of years that leads to nothing.

That means the ballot box is dead. All the votes we supplied over the last 7 years have been wasted. We can keep hoping and voting but the SNP is entrenched — there’s no prospect of serious change.

It’s over as far as using your vote is concerned. The ballot box is a dead parrot.

Sure, there’s Alba. In 10 years, assuming everything goes really well, it might be able to play some part in a hung parliament.

Breeks

Hatuey says:
29 September, 2022 at 11:15 pm
Craig Murray’s latest confirms the point; a referendum on independence isn’t possible through the ballot box as long as Westminster says it isn’t, a plebiscitary election can’t lead to independence without Westminster’s consent, and here’s the best bit; it isn’t Westminster that’s saying all that, it’s the so-called party of independence.

I think that’s true, but I get there from a different direction.

I firmly believe that the SALVO / Constitutional approach is going to be the game changer, and Westminster is going to have a devil of a job containing it, because a lot of what happens will happen outside Westminster’s jurisdiction.

The awkward problem for SALVO is not I think Westminster, but a democratically elected Administration, allegedly pro-Independence, setting it’s face against Scotland’s Constitution and essentially disputing Scottish Sovereignty.

The World, at least the UN, will see the appropriate “Liberation Movement” pushing for International Recognition of Scottish Sovereignty, but sovereignty which Scotland’s own “elected” Government won’t even recognise. What Nation on Earth will be persuaded to recognise Scotland if Scotland’s democratically elected, pro-Independence Government doesn’t?

What an embarrassing farce for the whole Independence Movement, and the blame for lies squarely at Sturgeons feet. How I detest that fraud of an individual.

What price for a wee bit of courage at the SNP Conference and Sturgeon the Betrayer ousted? Please God let it happen… but there are few left in the SNP known for their courage.

If Sturgeon walks away from this Conference with her rancid wee clique intact, it’s the end of the SNP, and instead of attacking Westminster, I fear SALVO will need time to dig around the Records Office and uncover some Ye Olde Worlde Impeachment protocols to hobble Holyrood before we take Scotland’s plight to the International community.

We’ll be delayed by that, and Sturgeon will press ahead with losing her doomed IndyRef, and screwing up our chance of Independence for the next decade.

Robert Hughes

” T’is over…now…if theres no action…if theres no rage..now.

T’is done….goodbye and good luck…..slaves! ”

Yip , the Fat , Bearded Lady is singing ( oooo * misogyny * * sexism * * body-shaming * and * transphobia * in one sentence , I’m outta here before the Thought Police arrive ) .

I agree with H’s prognosis re the ” Ballot Box ” – Polly’s deid

We could attempt to enlist some Pro-Indy monks n adopt a novel

Carmelite n Ballot Box strategy .

OPUS DEI OVER FEAR

Watcha reckon me ‘earties ?

Merganser

Andy Ellis @ 8.55 says: ‘It wasn’t clear at the time the SNP first announced their change of policy what they actually planned’.

I see. So that’s the reason you and others fell for it: the naughty SNP didn’t tell you the whole truth from the start.

Given Sturgeon’s track record it was perfectly foreseeable that there was bound to be a sting in the tail and now you are being stung.

There is no point in accepting anything Sturgeon or the SNP says at face value.

I hope you have learned a lesson from this and don’t make the same mistake again.

I don’t profess to know the way forward with independence. All I know is that it doesn’t lie in the hands of the SNP, and until they are removed from office and replaced with genuine independence seekers no progress will be made.

James che

I am sorry to hear about Liz G, our condolences to her family and friends,

James che

The Crown sits in UK parliament,
Members of the Scottish government have to swear an oath of allegiance to the Crown if they wish to enter as a politician,

If it means nothing, Why the need for it? and is not controlling the decisions of Scottish politicians, then,

Scrap the oath of allegiance to the Crown in the Scottish devolved government. Simple.

James che

Those that purpose only one method to gain independence for Scotland are certainly making a big effort to keep us on a narrow selected route to democracy.

All the work being done by the other grassroots groups towards independence for Scotland have out shone all the politicians put together in one year,
They have made the effort to look towards other alternatives, that have a preference to begging.

It astounds me to realise that the politicians of Scotland have made no effort to contest the view of Westminsters position of presumption that it is solely in a treaty of union by itself in all the years the devolved parliament in Scotland has existed.

James che

The Scottish politicians we voted in over the last years into the devolved government have made no effort to protect the Scottish Constitution. And yet a fair percentage of them have law backgrounds.

Nor had they reminded or informed the Scots of the ” Claim of Right” in 1706/07 treaty of the union since the devolved parliament first opened.
until the last few years, when they realised the people of Scotland had got wind of it,

The occurring theme of keeping Scots ignorant of their rights, is becoming history.

Hatuey

That’s right, James Che, they’ve insisted that we stick to that road and attacked anyone who alluded to alternative routes. Everything in this article and in Craig Murray’s latest tells you they were naive and wrong.

robertkknight

@Hautey

“Everything in this article and in Craig Murray’s latest tells you they were naive and wrong”.

Switch “niave and wrong” for “cunning and deceitful” and you’ve got the measure of Sturgeon and her lieutenants, including those in the legal profession.

James Che

Hatuey.

Thing is the only route they wish us to take is within the rule system that was made to prevent Scottish incependence.

The begging bowl method, where the system is rigged, they even change the goal posts on percentages needed when it suits them,
Own the voting franchise.
And then decide if they will take part or recognise the results of democracy.

James Che

A question for those genned up on this topic a little bit more than I.

Is the treaty of union Ratified in domestic law?

Andy Ellis

@John Main 7.22 am

Anybody claiming there can’t be any changes to the political landscape in Scotland over these time periods is effectively saying there is something politically wrong with us.

I’m afraid you might be right, there IS something politically wrong with us to tolerate the current situation and not bring about change. In the end the buck has to stop with the people as a whole. We get the representatives we deserve. If we don’t like what they do, we change them using accepted constitutional means. In extremis, if they are preventing change, acting illegally or using violence, we depose them. That’s how it works.

Are we really believing that in the next three and a half years of perma-crisis, the political logjam at HR will remain ummoved? The same, tired and discredited faces will shout meaningless insults at each other, day after day? The same half-hearted apologies for ineptitude, laziness and low-level corruption will be tholed by us Scots?
Naw. Seems most unlikely to me.

I’ve heard these arguments before that essentially “something has to give” and that due to the upcoming economic crisis the people will rise up and ensure a sea change in our politics. Really? They might I suppose, but given our history I don’t like the odds. There is nothing in our past that suggests the Scottish or British people will somehow contrive to bring about radical change to our governments and their policies this time as opposed to during past crises.

We don’t have the history of constitutional change, coalition governments and the rapid formation of new political parties you see elsewhere. It’s not impossible of course, but I remain unconvinced. We’re still saddled with a creaking crypto-medieval system of government. No electoral reform, no abolition or wholesale reform of the House of Lords, no radical policies to tackle social inequality, environmental concerns, education, the health service, pensions and social care.

The problem for Scots is that their devolutionary parliament and representatives at Westminster don’t have the power to force Westminster to do anything. They don’t hold the balance of power like the IPP did a century ago. They can’t bring the system to its knees, because they are easily outvoted.

Maybe when the Scots who still support the SNP and believe their promises realise they’ve been had, but I don’t see that happening until AFTER the next elections. Given what we’ve seen of the anti-democratic nature of the SNP’s internal governance, do you honestly see the rank and file membership overthrowing Sturgeon’s leadership before then? It could happen if there’s an upsurge of discontent or civil unrest due to economic shock to come, but equally it might not. If we were going to have La Diada style demonstrations and uprisings of the people invading Bute House and the Viceroy’s new offices in the High Street in righteous indignation, we’d already be independent!

Andy Ellis

@Hatuey 11.15 pm

…and here’s the best bit; it isn’t Westminster that’s saying all that, it’s the so-called party of independence.

Which is why I said above, the only way to ensure a “real” plebiscitary election is for the SNP to change tack, and treat a victory in plebiscitary elections as de facto independence, not just another mandate.

The only way that will happen is for the SNP membership to force the change, or for Scots voters to vote for parties promising it. The former could produce results in the short to medium term, the latter only in the medium to long term. Tell me which part you disagree with or think is wrong?

The most “cunning” and far-fetched moon-howling plan for independence that currently exists is officially the idea that it’s possible by conventional means through the ballot box.

You keep asserting this, but it becomes no more convincing for the constant repetition. The ballot box is the only plausible way. All the cunning plans positing routes which bypass the use of a majority in a referendum or plebiscitary election are dead ends.

There are no legal or constitutional short cuts which stack up. Putting your faith in them kicks independence in to the long grass and makes it a racing certainty that it won’t happen for a real generation.

Feel free to enlighten me, but I bet you can’t do so without stringing together a bunch of things that don’t seem possible or very likely right now. In other words, I bet you can’t do it without entering into the realms of pure fantasy.

I’ve sketched out the possibilities and potential timescales as requested, now you airily dismiss them as impossible or fantastical, while asserting (again) that the deck is stacked against us, and that as far ahead in to the future as you can see you don’t see how it will change. Seems like the dialogue of despair to me.

You have no realistic alternative, but insist the game’s a bogey. A lot of us will be dead before independence happens relying on those advocating “cunning plans for indy”.

desimond

Just a thought, but who are the alternative voices in the SNP?

You know..Starmer has Corbyn and his fans
Even Truss has Ken Clark and other sceptics within the Tory party.

Who are the “other perspectives” in the SNP?

I dont think Joanne Cherry is interested since being sidelined and I dont see anyone making any ripple let alone waves so how will it ever change?

Is Glorious First leader Nicola ever to be challenged let alone replaced?

James Che

I heard there is a distinction between ratified domestic law and international law when it involves the treaty of union from its conception.

Republicofscotland

The mock indyref is a ruse, to adhere as many indy supporters to Sturgeon as possible for when the UKSC denies the right for Sturgeon to hold it, and it must, the stability of the union is imperative at all times, then Sturgeon can say I tried but the UKSC said no. Another reason the UKSC must say no, is that Sturgeon would be found out, assuming yes romped home and nothing came of it.

Now with the mock indyref out of the way let’s look at the plebiscitary GE, I’d fully expect the SNP under Sturgeon to run with the GE billing it as a plebiscite, this cunning plan would see almost all indy supporters back it in the hope of winning as many indy minded MPs seats as possible, the emphasis being on the SNP obtaining the majority mid 50’s or so.

Of course, there will be some sort of challenge to it being a plebiscitary GE in which Sturgeon will back down after a bit of toing and froing with regards to legalities, but in the end the union will remain intact, and Sturgeon will have her tranche of MPs and any notion of independence will disappear like snow aff a dyke in Spring, only to reemerge in 2026.

James Che

We are weaving our way through our laws,
through the Sovereignty of Scots, through the Scottish Constitution,
Through democracy issues and self determination,
Through international laws and domestic laws.
Through the Claim of right and colonisation.
Through the treaty of the union ownership.

All this is being investigated, not by the devolved government and all who sail in her, But by the Scottish people. Us, and it will take years,
It is good that we will be able to prove our point from Scotland in a few years time, on many of these issues

Do we have years given the state of Scotland and Britain now?
Given the advertising taking place in MSM daily of Scotland as a new place of residence for those living outside of Scotland getting more buck for your money if you buy in Scotland,

I wonder how quick these things would be challenged and sorted by the UN and other Countries if the SCOTS of Scotland decided to leave the Union,

I would love to See how Westminster protested to the UN that it considered Scotland was no longer a a recognised participant in the treaty of the union by Westminster.

I would love to see Westminster explain or could explain away the colonisation of the treaty of the union by Westminster itself.

I would love to see Westminster try to explain to the UN how the old English 1706 parliament of Westminster entered directly into the British parliament with out ending the english parliament session until 1708.

Ruby

Hatuey says:
30 September, 2022 at 11:02 am

I have a problem with those who repeatedly slated and continue to slate all routes to Indy that don’t involve the ballot box and Westminster’s permission. The revelations in this article and Craig Murray’s latest confirm that they were wrong.

Who are these people? The Apartheid Boys?

Hatuey says:

There is no prospect of a section 30. There is no prospect of the SNP putting up any serious resistance to Westminster’s refusal to facilitate one

The way I see it zero effort has been put into obtaining a section 30.

Now that we have discovered the SNP are doing nothing I feel we should be highlighting that fact by protesting outside Westminster.

Maybe with placards appealing to the Tories to help us since the ‘Cosy Slippers’ have broken their promises and are doing nothing for Scotland. 😉

I don’t have a problem with discussions about alternative routes but we always come back to the same problem …… the SNP.

James Che

I would love to see Westminster would explain to the UN how it was refusing democracy, the Right to Self Determination to Scots in the treaty of the union.

I would love to witness Westminster squirm under UN questioning on wether the treaty of the union took place under Duress and threat to the Scots, by a army being sent to the Scottish borders in 1707 to quell the protests.

I would Love to hear the UN question Westminster, on how many articles of the treaty of the union t have Westminster breached since 1706/07.

Andy Ellis

@Merganser 11.44 am

I see. So that’s the reason you and others fell for it: the naughty SNP didn’t tell you the whole truth from the start.

Given Sturgeon’s track record it was perfectly foreseeable that there was bound to be a sting in the tail and now you are being stung.

We didn’t fall for anything. We took it at face value on the information available at the time, which was that Sturgeon had undergone a Damascene conversion to doing what many – including Rev Stu – have been advocating for years, firstly to put the issue of the legality of a non-S30 sanctioned referendum beyond legal doubt via the SC, and if that decided Holyrood lacked competence to pursue the only other available route: plebiscitary elections.

The sting came recently, as it was not obvious when first announced that Sturgeon’s plebiscitary election was simply a precursor for another step. Plebiscitary elections don’t require a second step, but we have to disabuse the SNP of that belief

There is no point in accepting anything Sturgeon or the SNP says at face value.

I hope you have learned a lesson from this and don’t make the same mistake again.

Tell it to all those still supporting and voting for them.

I don’t profess to know the way forward with independence. All I know is that it doesn’t lie in the hands of the SNP, and until they are removed from office and replaced with genuine independence seekers no progress will be made.

Great, you have opinions and no solution. Virtually all of us agree the SNP won’t deliver, but the hard fact is it remains the party supported by the bulk of the movement. Unless its current leadership is removed and it changes tack, I agree the only realistic alternative is to remove them, but how long do you think that is going to take? A year..? 5…10?

I’d prefer not to wait indefinitely. There are likely to be a few years before the next elections, so there’s some time to prepare. There’s no guarantee the SNP can be changed or rendered fit for purpose though, and “tqking it down” isn’t going to be achieved overnight. If you have a better plan though, let’s hear it.

James Che

I would love to see how Westminster could explain away the inconsistency between the treaty of the union Calendar dates for Scotland and Englands parliaments from 1706 –1707 signing,
until the amendments of the English calendar in in 1752,
The English parliament had officially ratified the Scottish parliaments side of the treaty of union consecutively for roughly 46 years prior to it being officially submitted to Westminster.

Upon changing the Calendar in England in 1752, England lost 11 days in the treaty of the Union.

robertkknight

desimond @ 2:10 pm
“Just a thought, but who are the alternative voices in the SNP”

There aren’t any. Those who want to see an Independent Scotland in their lifetime quit, leaving the troughers and biology deniers to f**k it up all by themselves and kill off any chance of Indy ever happening.

But so long as Westminster keeps on writing those cheques, the SNP will be happy as pigs in sh1t.

Welcome to Sturgeon’s perma-devolved Scotland folks. A banana republic, just without any bananas.

Ian Brotherhood

@robertknight (3.22) –

At least banana republics are republics.

(And they own their bananas!)

😉

James Che

So England was officially missing in the treaty of the union for 11 days of the British parliament.

Was it supposed to renew its side to the treaty of the union being as those 11 days were null and void?

How does Westminster parliament hold on to the idea that the 1707 treaty of union that created the British parliament has been continuous with 11 missing days in England.

It dates and amount of days differ from Scotlands dates and days in the treaty of the union and as the British parliament,
As Scotland due to its calendar, does not have 11 missing days.

Benhope

Queen died 3.10pm.Public announcement 6.35pm. Cause of death, old age. Message: none of your business peasants !!!

James che

England,

Absent from the treaty of the union and the British parliament for 11 full days and nights.

James che

Ian Brotherhood.

🙂

Republicofscotland

A professor and Plaid Cymru, shootdown the Westminster figures that an indy Wales would start off with a £13.5 billion deficit, sound familiar.

At least the Welsh indy party has shot it down, I recall the SNP under Sturgeon was at one time going to publish a counter to the GERS figures to show that they wouldn’t apply to an indy Scotland, but nothing came of it, no surprise there then.

link to 12ft.io

Breastplate

RoS,
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Wales got independence before Scotland.
Good luck to them, either way.

Merganser

Andy Ellis @ 3.04 says: ‘Great. You have opinions but no solution…I’d prefer not to wait indefinitely…If you have a better plan let’s hear it.’

If I had a sure-fire, quick way of achieving independence I would be happy to state it. For me to say that Sturgeon et al should resign, and that Alba should unite with what’s left of the SNP, is not a plan; it’s barely wishful thinking. And Alex has been so damaged by the plotters that the person with the most ability has been effectively side-lined.

Whilst I haven’t given up hope of seeing Scotland become independent in my lifetime, I have to concede that this is a strong possibility at my age.

I would at least derive a crumb of comfort to see Sturgeon and her charlatans exposed for what they are and what they have done. This for me is the most important first step that has to be taken on the road forward. I’m sorry I can’t offer you a quick fix.

Ian Brotherhood

Link for full version of Scottish Prism episode recorded at the Eagle Inn, Coatbridge, on Sept 18th.

Roddy MacLeod (aka Barrhead Boy) is joined by Eva Comrie, Sara Salyers, Yvonne Ridley, Phil Boswell and Tommy Sheridan.

link to youtube.com

Ruby

I’ve got a new audiobook.

It’s called ‘The Diary of a Secret Tory MP’

Anyone read this?

I’m keeping it for the Coronation when I’m planning on doing more spring cleaning.

I’m expecting there to be more sex, more violence, more motor cycle gangs & more cleaning tips (ie red wine stains removal) than in ‘Mrs Harris goes to Paris’

Dan

Ah well, John Main will be proud of my exploits as I get my “Brexit” A Game on and make innovative bramble jam from more foraging exploits.
M. Boyle seems to have finally evaporated so I hopefully won’t be accused of being a Guardianista like I was after the locally sourced and seasonal crayfish gumbo creation…

TBH it was one of aspect / dare I say benefit of “Brexit” that I hoped would get more promoting in carbon footprint reducing terms, in that we should be eating more locally sourced and seasonal fayre.
Initial taste tests of da jam are extremely positive, and this also has the bonus that these berries just grow without all the grief of pests control like sawfly devouring my blackcurrant bushes.

Ruby

What about a book called

‘The Diary of a Secret SNP MP’

(Almost!) True Stories from the Heart of Holyrood & Westminster.

That could be fun!

In description of ‘The Diary of a Secret Tory MP’ it states

The Diary of a Secret Tory MP is an outrageous spoof of the classic political journal that pulls back the Lulu Lytle curtains to expose extraordinary goings-on at Westminster across a tumultuous twelve months.

I had to google ‘Lulu Lytle curtains’ now I’m wondering what type of curtains could be used in

‘The Diary of a Secret SNP MP’

Any suggestions?

link to tinyurl.com

I’ve just re-watched ‘Rory Bremner Goes to Holyrood’ and it turns out writing ‘The Diary of a Secret SNP MP’ would be very difficult ‘cos there are no SNP scandals & and on top of that nobody knows who any of the SNP politicians are.

John Main

Dan

Naw, you’ve got me wrong.

Are you sure you’re not my sister posting under a pseudonym?

She is a wee bit of a Brexit sceptic, so for her birthday, I got her a selection of continental cheeses, all bought from my local shop. And all on the list of stuff we were telt would be unavailable, or eye wateringly expensive after Brexit.

Washed down with a bottle of Prosecco, something else that Project Fear telt us would be impossible to get. Now it seems to be cheaper than ever.

Not being critical, Dan, but this time last week I would have been applauding your efforts re food miles.

This time this week, somebody has deliberately released 778 million standard cubic meters of methane into the atmos, meaning that if all of us live to be a thousand, our recycling efforts and foodmile concerns will still count for naught in comparison.

So by all means continue with the foraging if it saves you money. But for anybody else, hoping to save the planet, get a life. You’re wasting your time.

P

What do you make of Angus MacNeill and Joanna Cherry ?
Still with new snp, still tweeting as if an snp Indy is real.

Ian Brotherhood

Oooh-er, how ‘inconvenient’ is this?

‘At the UN Security Council a resolution to condemn Russia over its referendums in Donetsk & Lugansk to come under Moscow’s umbrella FAILS after China, Brazil, India, Gabon refuse to vote with NATO proxy countries.’

link to twitter.com

John Main

Rrrruuuubbbbyyyyyyy!

Ruby!

They’re posting about UK raine again.

FFS. No wonder you never made Milk Monitor.

Asleep on the job. Unless …

It can’t be that your selective outrage is only aimed at posters you don’t like. Naw.

stuart mctavish

@John Main

forever blowing bubbles?

If its nordstream you thinking of there should be isolation valves at least every 16km so if the pipes did have methane in them, and each pipe blew either side of a valve, the most that should have been lost is in the order 100,000 m3 (4 x 16000m x 1.5m2) which, if compressed to 70 bar/1000psi, would be in order of about 5 million scm (I think)

Geri

Wings, exactly.
That’s why some of us have been banging our head at the buzz words often touted to thwart even an attempt at independence – the whataboutery about international recognition & what will the international community think.. it’s beyond tiresome became no one can know unless we have the balls to try it cause sure as shit Sturgeon doesn’t. & The international community won’t say shit until actually presented with a decision to make.

I wonder, if Labour win next GE, if they’d have an attempt at a people’s vote, & we find ourselves back in the EU under the UK member state. Jeez, that’d surely be another missed sitter of getting us out the UK while its out of the EU & is fast losing friends.

Ruby

Ian Brotherhood says:
30 September, 2022 at 10:25 pm

Oooh-er, how ‘inconvenient’ is this?

‘At the UN Security Council a resolution to condemn Russia over its referendums in Donetsk & Lugansk to come under Moscow’s umbrella FAILS after China, Brazil, India, Gabon refuse to vote with NATO proxy countries.’

link to twitter.com

That is interesting Ian. I wonder if there will ever be a UN security Council resolution condemning the UK for refusing to allow the people of Scotland a referendum.

Robert Hughes

” I wonder, if Labour win next GE, if they’d have an attempt at a people’s vote, & we find ourselves back in the EU under the UK member state ”

Zero chance of that , Geri .

Starmer – political Ed Gein that he is , has eviscerated Tory ideology , not in order to kill it , but to wear it : such is the fit , it could almost have been made-to-measure . He’s going to ” Make Brexit work ” . He’s yet to elaborate on how

In fairness , England voted for it , so , let them have it , all of it . The willie of the people must be respected ; even if it is used to sodomise their rights , interests , social/economic wellbeing .

Sturgeon – Evangelical Gender fanatic- removed Scotland’s 62% Remain prophylactic and chose to adopt the missionary position , to lie back and think of England .

The Supreme Power

HER reward will be entry to the Land of Silk & Money .

Scotland – What/where’s that ?

It’s a county just north of Berwick-upon-Tweed.

Ottomanboi

For information.
link to ireland-calling.com
Sturgeon = Redmond?
Enough of the hand wringing.

Rab Davis

Very important events in the coming days,,, which in my opinion will give us a much clearer view of where we are at this point on our journey towards Scottish Independence:-

SNP Conference 8th-10th October Aberdeen.

Supreme Court ruling 11th-12th October London.

ALBA Conference 15th-16th October Stirling.

These three events will shape our immediate future.

Hang on, because we are about to hit the summit of the Indy rollercoaster ride.

Hatuey

You’d think a scientist would know that methane in the atmosphere only lasts about 10 years… actually probably less.

We know who did it because Biden and Nuland told us in advance they were going to do it.

The timing is interesting. With public opinion in Germany turning against the war and people starting to question the necessity of power cuts during the winter, we were hearing more and more calls for nordstream gas to be brought back online.

In the background US energy companies are making a fortune, with exports to Europe up dramatically. Of course, US arms manufacturers are making a killing too.

“Taking out” nordstream will come back to haunt the US. It was an act of stupidity that the majority of Germans will see through. It’ll lead to more people demanding an end to the war and may even lead to NATO being dismantled.

Grouser

I am sorry to hear about the death of Liz G. She joins the thousands of Independence supporters who worked for Independence but have been cheated out it by NS and her clique actively working against it.
I was able to look an NS supporter in the eye yesterday and explain why there will be no referendum in October ’23. I think I shook her belief but will wait and see.
It has taken the Welsh producing their own figures to prove how much England is ripping out of them. We have been begging NS to produce similar figures for Scotland for years but have met a blank wall. Now she is saying that Scotland will produce figures for Scotland. She has to be dragged kicking and screaming to do anything to promote the case for Independence.
Now Blackford is crowing about the SNP being the official Opposition after the next GE. Great troughers all!
SNP MPs and MSPs please grow a backbone and challenge her.

Republicofscotland

Ian Brotherhood @10.25pm.

It’s not the first time the UNSG has overstepped his remit on this matter.

” UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres had no authority to make statements on the part of the entire organization about the recent referendums in the people’s republics of Donetsk and Lugansk (DPR and LPR) and the regions of Kherson and Zaporozhye, Russia’s mission to UN said on Friday.

The Russian Permanent Mission to the United Nations said in a statement that “administrative functions do not give the Secretary-General the right to make political statements on behalf of the UN as a whole,” let alone to “single-handedly deliver interpretation of the norms of the Charter and the documents of the General Assembly.””

Effijy

The Daily Hail continues to find new levels of pathetic.

Sturgeon out on the street with an aid covering her with an umbrella to stop her getting soaked.

SNP council leader heading to Egypt for a UN conference on climate change where she will receive £25 per day expenses.

Should she have demanded the UN hold it in Govan or refuse to attend this urgent and important meeting.

manandboy

The Indy bus is full but Nicola the driver, won’t start the engine.
So the passengers just get their phones and tablets out.
Ho hum.
Says more about the voters, who appear to have better things to do
than get Independence.
As for Sturgeon, she’s been bought and sold for a long time now.

Someone or something, outwith Scotland, is going to have to get Independence for us.
Scotland has clearly demonstrated beyond any doubt
that independence is beyond our collective capabilities.
Traitors meanwhile, abound, in and around the Scottish Parliament.

Breeks

Ruby says:
1 October, 2022 at 7:13 am

That is interesting Ian. I wonder if there will ever be a UN security Council resolution condemning the UK for refusing to allow the people of Scotland a referendum.

With warmongering Nicola “No Fly Zone” Sturgeon, I somehow doubt Scotland did itself any favours.

Although the number of Nations who recognise and welcome the end of the UK, and by implication the British Empire as a thing, might be harder to call…

I wonder, did Gabon stand in for South Africa? (BRICS).

James Che

Effijy.

Snp going to Egypt.?

They cant find their way to the nearest Scottish independence marches or meetings.

James Che

When you think about those blew up nord stream, and preventing people from having heating and energy this winter for political gain,

I think They should be charged with mass crimes against humanity.

Robert Hughes

” We know who did it because Biden and Nuland told us in advance they were going to do it. ”

What ! Are you suggesting R DIDN’T covertly enter NATO-patrolled waters , surreptitiously lay explosive devices on IT’S OWN ( very expensively constructed ) pipeline , then detonated them whilst gnawing the bones of women ,children and small furry animals ; when it could have simply flicked a switch to achieve the same end ?

You must be one of those crazy Conspiracy Theorists .

If Biden and Nuland’s own words weren’t sufficient to convince the terminally gullible , how about Former Polish Foreign Minister – the aptly named Sikorski’s ( ” The Boeing–Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche is an American stealth armed reconnaissance and attack helicopter ” ) ” Thank you , USA ” message accompanying an image of the roiling sea above the sabotage points ?

Maybe he was thanking them for Mom’s Apple n Democracy Pie *

* may contain traces of nuts

Not to put TOO much emphasis on it ….if you believe this shit

You’re a fuckn moron and shouldn’t be allowed out without the presence of an adult ( if there are such people these days )

sarah

Kenny MacAskill says something very disturbing about the SNP MPs response when he says to them in a cheery way – “it’s great there will be a referendum in 2023”. They look down, away, avoiding his gaze.

Doesn’t sound encouraging, does it? [Kenny gives this anecdote in his speech at the Tranent Wee Alba book event – on Voices for Independence yesterday.]

It is clear that Holyrood and the MPs are NOT protecting us from England and the English. Under the Claim of Right, that they all and Westminster supposedly agree applies in Scotland, they are required to do so OR lose their jobs.

I suggest that all of us email our MSPs and MPs and simply ask them if they agree that the Claim of Right exists. Don’t say any more than that.

When [if] they reply to say of course they agree, then write back to point out that they are required to protect us from all those Westminster policies that they spend their time complaining about. And the Claim of Right empowers them to act NOW, not wait for Westminster’s permission via a court or an election or a referendum.

Tell them that any further delay is unacceptable.

I suggest we all do this because it is clear that our MSPs and MPs don’t understand what the real meaning of the Claim of Right is. They behave as if the people’s sovereignty is handed over to them in parliament. IT ISN’T.

If we had done that it would mean parliamentary sovereignty, just like England’s Bill of Rights said in 1689. Our Claim of Right of 1689 says PEOPLE, not Parliament. It is simple – Scotland is different and our parliamentarians need to know that.

Come on everyone – start to prod our parliamentarians and make them a bit less comfortable. They won’t be worrying about fuel and food bills, will they? They have a damn nerve watching what is being done to us and letting it happen when there is absolutely no reason to do so.

Saffron Robe

Hatuey says:

“We know who did it because Biden and Nuland told us in advance they were going to do it.”

I agree with your comment, Hatuey, which is very well expressed, although I don’t think the environmental impact can be downplayed. It is an environmental disaster of unprecedented proportions and highlights how little they actually care about the environment.

I do not understand how such a heinous act of international terrorism can be carried out in European waters with impunity. Can Europe not see that it has been US policy all along to incite the conflict in Eastern Europe, weaken and cripple Europe’s reliance on Russian oil and gas, and thereby exponentially increase American hegemony? Why does Europe (the EU and UK) choose to do the US’s bidding by siding with neo-Nazis rather than support the well-being of their own people and their own continent? What the US did to the Middle East they are now doing to Europe.

Since the Second World War the US (in league with the UK) has been the world’s leading state sponsor of terrorism with NATO acting as a paramilitary and terrorist organisation. It is time they were declared as such and NATO disbanded for good before we are led to global destruction.

James Che

Hatuey,

Destroying energy supplies as winter approaches is obviously crimes against humanity,

But they could also be charged with a act/s of terrorism.

James Che

I remember Von der Lyion also mentioning there was things the could do to bring governments and countries into line,

They seem not to have thought out how unbelievable the narrative they spun afterwards would to the rest of the world.

Ian Brotherhood

Any of you go to the Edinburgh march?

robertkknight

S N P… Scottish Nowsnoratym Party

sarah

@ IB: no I didn’t go to the march. If I lived within say 50 miles I would have done. I hope to hear that there was a substantial turnout – AUOB are saying 7000.

John Main

I just don’t get it.

There must be half a dozen posts about the war on this thread now, but not a peep out of self-appointed subject monitor, Ruby.

Looks like it’s not “Wings Over Uk raine” that Ruby objects to after all.

It’s alternative opinions that blow her fuses.

Who’d a thunk it, eh?

John Main

@Saffron Robe

You were close to looking as if you were making a valid point, but then you dropped in “neo-Nazis”.

You just can’t help yourself, can you?

Anyways, let me get into the spirit of your post and encourage you to crack on with disbanding NATO.

Be sure to submit regular progress reports on here, thanks.

John Main

@Hatuey 10:20

So when Biden and Nuland say something you want to believe, you believe it?

But when they say something you don’t want to believe, they’re lying through their teeth?

Just checking I have the necessary framework to interpret your posts. This must be a first for you, citing people like them as reliable and believable sources, so it is necessary to understand what has made you do a reverse ferret.

John Main

Stuart Mctavish

Good point, and of course, standard practice on any pipeline for leak isolation.

Reports I have seen online quote the entire volume of the pipeline. Unless the isolation valves are being deliberately held open, there is no way the entire pipeline should vent.

If the isolation valves are open, it introduces an intriguing idea for how the pipeline(s) were blown up. My usual 30 seconds of internet research turned up a photo of the Nordstream pig, so the lines were designed for pigging. It would therefore be feasible to put a crawler into the line (from either end) with an explosive charge attached.

No ships, submarines, or divers necessary.

Andy Ellis

@RoS 10.29 am

Maybe the UN Secretary General just knows an Orc when he sees one? Unlike you he seems to have a functioning moral compass.

Anyway, he was quite right, and within his rights, to call out the Orcs latest cunning plan:

The Charter also empowers the Secretary-General to bring to the attention of the Security Council any matter which in their opinion may threaten the maintenance of international peace and security. These guidelines both define the powers of the office and grant it considerable scope for action. The Secretary-General would fail if they did not take careful account of the concerns of Member States, but they must also uphold the values and moral authority of the United Nations, and speak and act for peace, even at the risk, from time to time, of challenging or disagreeing with those same Member States.

link to un.org

John Main

Andy Ellis

I guess some of the usual suspects on here are wetting themselves with excitement when they conclude that there is indeed a “cunning plan for Indy” after all.

Simply go house-to-house, ordering residents to vote at gunpoint.

It cannot be denied that at a certain superficial level it works, delivering up to 99.2% in favour of the required result.

You have to wonder at the guts of that 0.8% though. I hope they are OK.

And the even better news: if we follow this process here in Scotland, Chad will have our back.

Now where’s my atlas.

Ottomanboi

The Scotch lawyer was so engrossed in detail he failed to see the truck that flattened him when stepping off the pavement.
Scottish nationalism is just like that.
Adieu & the best of luck….you’re going to need it folks, in spades.
Off to Qatar….At least the weather’s warm at this time of year….in sha allah!
Mr Campbell should pull the plug on Wings. It has lost its «raison d’être».

Hatuey

Saffron, I agree, the immediate environmental consequences of the US blowing up the pipeline are undoubtedly very serious. It was an idiotic decision that will come back to haunt them.

Germans generally, more than any other population in the world, are are very environmentally aware and when they weigh up the damage this will cause to marine life, along with the consequences in terms of energy costs, they aren’t going to be happy.

The suggestion that anyone else might be responsible for this doesn’t deserve a serious response.

Andy Ellis

@John Main 6.55 pm

Well indeed. Of course, sauce for the goose and all that. Perhaps Country 404 could just carry on when they clear the Orcs out of the four stolen oblasts and declare the neighbouring oblasts now belong to them?

Any of the constituent republics of the Russian Federation must be wondering about whether it’s worth asking their neighbouring states for help to leave. I’m sure China, Kazhakstan and a few others might be interested…? 🙂

Robert Hughes

” Adieu & the best of luck….you’re going to need it folks, in spades.
Off to Qatar….At least the weather’s warm at this time of year….in sha allah! ”

Same to you Otto .

Take care of yrsel n hope you will maintain yr interest ( and commentary ) in our ongoing Scottish Purgatory

Haste ye back 🙂

Robert Louis

Ian Brotherhood 325pm,

Yes. Heard Chris Law of the SNP speak, and it was as wishy washy as expected. Let me paraphrase one part;

‘If the Supreme court rules in our favour then we will have our vote in October next year. (Loud appaluse and cheers)

But, if it rules against us, then…(and I held my breath waiting to hear what would happen).. we will have to determine just how we can legally progress a referendum. (this was greeted by a much more muted response).

So, yet again, we have somebody from the SNP literally publicly telling London that if their pretendy ‘supreme’ court says NO, then NOTHING will happen. WTF?

Can somebody, somewhere, please, please, please send a copy of the ladybird book of negotiation and Political strategy to the SNP and Chris Law.

What Chris Law should actually have said, was this, ‘if the English pretendy ‘supreme’ court says no, we will hold our referendum regardless, and if that fails we will make the next parliamentary election a vote on independence, and the one after that, and after that for AS LONG AS IT TAKES, as we have four full clear democratic mandates to do so, and independence is OUR RIGHT, under the UN. Scotland will not have its democratic rights denied any longer by English Tories and Labour charlatans. We will use ANY means to secure freedom from English rule, and an end to this one-sided, unwanted, undemocratic, so-called ‘union.

If you tell Westminster, in advance, that you will do nothing when they trash your country and democracy, they will treat you with the utter, utter contempt you rightly deserve. Sadly, I do not doubt that is EXACTLY what Sturgeon will do at the forthcoming SNP conference. No wonder London ignores her. I would too.

In short, the message to London is clear from the SNP, ‘deny us our democratic rights and well, we’ll go away, and think about things, and stuff… and it’s not fair’

Utterly, utterly pathetic. No fight, No political acumen, none.

Ian Brotherhood

@Robert Louis –

Thanks for that report.

Finding it hard to understand why AUOB invited Chris Law to speak at all let alone lead the march. Doesn’t do their cred any good at all.

Andy Ellis

@Robert Louis

What Chris Law should actually have said, was this, ‘if the English pretendy ‘supreme’ court says no, we will hold our referendum regardless, and if that fails we will make the next parliamentary election a vote on independence,

What’s the point of a non-section 30 referendum though? it will not be accepted by unionists, or – at leat arguably – by the international community. If the SC finds against the SG, the movement should come together to agree that every subsequent GE is a de facto referendum. 50% + 1 = de facto independence. Simples. Why complicate matters by hoding another referendum of doubtful utility?

Ian Brotherhood

For those who prefer to make their own minds up about important stuff, here’s a link to P***n’s speech yesterday, unedited and subtitled.

odysee.com/@BacktoBasics:e/Vladimir_Putin_Speech_On_September_30_2022_Eng_Subtitles:1

John Main

And the results are in!

Our resident over-achiever has spoken: it wis the US wot done it.

To think of all these agencies, NGOs, intrepid journalists, defence departments, etc etc, scouring their seismic records, their encrypted intercepts, their satellite tracking records, their capability and effectiveness assessments, their thermal images, their sources and contacts and spies, and all the time, Hatuey, HE KNOWS.

Maybes somebody needs to tip off the UN and save a lot of wasted time and effort: HATUEY KNOWS.

Truly, we are not worthy to share his gifts.

John Main

@Robert Louis

Any info on previous ScotGov attitude to U.K. SC?

If there is a long history of ScotGov/SNP refusing to accept jurisdiction of SC, then it will be consistent of them to reject the ruling under discussion.

Alternatively, if they have been happy to go along with the SC rulings in the past, maybes because it suited them to do so, then impartial and rational onlookers will say, tough tittie.

This is a genuine question BTW. I am unaware that ScotGov has consistently rejected the authority of the SC in the past, but maybes it has and I am just unaware of that fact.