The politics of hatred
It must be bewildering being the SNP sometimes.
You win a historic third election with a second massive landslide, getting more than twice as many seats as your nearest challenger – the first time such a thing has ever happened in a Holyrood election – on the back of what’s (self-evidently) by and large a very popular policy programme and record, and before you’ve even taken your seats in the chamber all the parties you just thrashed out of sight line up to explain how you’ve been doing everything wrong.
And as alliances go, they don’t get much less holy.
Last week’s Times came with a whole shopping list of SNP plans the opposition might unite to derail, and the first one looks like being the Offensive Behaviour (Football) Act. Just four years old, the OBFA has been the subject of relentless attacks in the media and from the other parties since its inception.
Right across the press and politics spectrum, barely a voice can be found speaking up in favour of the Act. Except, that is, for the voice of the people.
A YouGov poll last summer, after the Act had been fully operational for more than two years, found that it retained overwhelming support from the public, with over 80% of all respondents backing it and just 12% opposed.
Another poll at around the same time by Panelbase had similar results – excluding Don’t Knows the margin was 81% to 19% in support. The Panelbase poll even broke down respondents by whether they were interested in football and which club they supported, but still found huge majorities in favour right across the board, including more than 2:1 margins from fans of the two clubs particularly targeted by the Act, Celtic and the new “Rangers”.
Even though largely symbolic (police can’t arrest thousands of people en masse), and despite some poor drafting and a considerable degree of obstructive hostility from the judiciary, the Act has a good history in court. In 2013/14 a great fuss was made over almost half of those prosecuted under the OBFA being acquitted, but those stats were freak – previous and subsequent years saw much higher conviction rates:
So the “unworkable” allegation is nonsense, and so is the “unfair” one. In its four years of operation, and despite frequent media hype, nobody has yet identified a single OBFA “martyr” – that is, someone subjected to a life-altering injustice at the hands of the Act – although that fact does nothing to prevent the often hysterical protestations of those on both sides of Scotland’s sectarian divide determined to believe that the legislation is aimed at persecuting them alone.
(Certain elements among Celtic and “Rangers” fans have a bizarre apparent desire to use Scottish football matches not just as a platform for airing their traditional ancient grievances about Irish history, but also to conduct a proxy war between Palestine and Israel, in their endless quest for victimhood status.)
Yet despite the Act’s enormous popularity and serviceable record, the opposition is determined not to offer constructive suggestions to iron out any of its undoubted flaws and wrinkles, but to destroy it utterly.
That they’re choosing to do so at the precise moment that the new “Rangers” enters the Premiership for the first time, bringing the prospect of regular “Old Firm” clashes to the fixture list, is a level of cynical, naked political opportunism that’s breathtaking in its malign and spiteful recklessness.
It’s easy to see the motivation of the Tories. As we’ve been pointing out for several months now, the Ruth Davidson No Surrender To The SNP Party has nailed itself firmly to the mast of old-school 1950s sectarian Unionism, usurping Labour as the main opposition party by openly pandering to a Loyalist and British-nationalist minority that’s never really got over the end of institutionalised religious discrimination.
As for the aforementioned Labour, our best speculation is that having been utterly wiped out in Glasgow at both Westminster and Holyrood elections, holding not a single constituency seat in what was once its impregnable heartland, the party is tossing a grenade over its shoulder as it’s ejected from the premises, determined to leave the SNP inhabiting nothing but scorched earth.
(A more charitable explanation would be that it’s merely blind tribal hatred of the Nats, manifesting as determination to secure any sort of victory over them no matter what the cost to Scotland, as with the Edinburgh trams in 2007.)
The Lib Dems and Greens are rather harder to fathom. The latter’s manifesto pledge to abolish the Act came with no reasoning other than that the OBFA “arbitrarily criminalises football fans”, a definition of the word “arbitrarily” that we don’t recognise – rugby, shinty and curling fans have no history of violent bigotry in need of remedy.
(The Green manifesto also claimed that the answer to the problem was instead to “support community action against sectarianism and other forms of anti-social behaviour in fans’ own clubs through greater empowerment, such as fan ownership”. If that doesn’t stop Neanderthals singing “The Billy Boys” we don’t know what will.)
The Lib Dems offered even less justification, other than including their OBFA-repeal policy at the bottom of a long list of pledges headed “Restoring Liberties”.
It’s incomprehensible to this site that the first priority of the opposition parties and media on the loss of the SNP’s majority is seemingly to send a message to the world that Scotland wants to encourage large groups of people to openly express their bigotry in public again. But it’s even more inexplicable that they’re choosing to do so with proven flashpoints for such toxic behaviour about to reappear on the horizon.
As ever, the price of those “liberties” will be paid by others – not by Ruth Davidson or Kezia Dugdale or Willie Rennie or Patrick Harvie, safe in their middle-class homes far from Ibrox and Parkhead, but by innocent bystanders and abused wives.
(Dugdale thinks it’d also be a smashing idea to bring alcohol back into the equation, if there might be a few quid to be made out of it. What could go wrong?)
But the morality of it all is one thing. We no more expect morality from politicians than we expect gourmet cooking from cats.
What we can’t for the life of us work out is why opposition politicians who’ve just been told to get stuffed by the electorate – James Kelly, the Labour MSP who’s said he’ll bring a repeal bill forward, was rejected by his constituents by a thumping 3,743 votes just days ago – think that the road to recovery lies in ganging up to smash some of the most popular laws ever passed by any government.
The OBFA is just the first step. We could be in for an interesting five years.
Wonderful article, thank you.
A cynical attempt to reintroduce divide & rule perhaps? and throw in some alcohol for good measure.
“That they’re choosing to do so at the precise moment that the new “Rangers” enters the Premiership for the first time, bringing the prospect of regular “Old Firm” clashes to the fixture list, is a level of political opportunism that’s breathtaking in its malign, spiteful recklessness.”
Well yes, it is. But if there is a sudden surge in sectarianism largely due simply to old firm matches returning, with long suffering Glaswegian non-bigots having had a nice break for a couple of years, and that happens to coincide with all 3 London parties ganging up to abolish the one act against football sectarianism, well…how does that look?
As always, the ability of the Tory-Labour-LibDem alliance to actually think things through beyond ‘this’ll score us a point against the SNP who we despise utterly even if the electorate quite like them’ is non-existent. It would almost be funny if it wasn’t Scotland and people in places like Glasgow who suffer over and over again due to their idiocy.
“Why would they choose to repeal this Act” think the answer to that s just because they can. Hell mend them.
Buoyed by this news, I’m sure we’ll be treated to the full repertoire of The Rangers songbook on Saturday. Cannot wait!
….yes I am being sarcastic
All MSPs who vote against this thoroughly sensible law should be made to attend the next old-firm match, and spend the first half in the rangers crowd wearing a celtic top, and the second half in the celtic crowd wearing a rangers top (if they survive the first half, that is).
Empires control the population through tactics of divide and rule and sectarianism in Scotland serves that function – keeping two parts of the same society at each other’s throats rather than working together to make things better.
This is precisely what the Unionist parties are up to – they are detecting a dangerous unity developing in Scotland (particularly in Glasgow) and they need to nip that in the bud before people wake up and kick them out altogether.
As for the Greens – not sure but probably just a bit of pathetic muscle flexing to try to humiliate the SNP. Remember that the Greens voted to push the trams through too, purely to discomfort the SNP and with no thought of the financial consequences for the people of Scotland.
Fan owner ship will stop the more disconcerting chorus of the Billy Boys.
It is now: –
We are up to our knees in balance sheets
Audit and we die…
For we will follow the ebt rules…
Opposition parties are going to join forces and oppose the government, I get it, but on this subject, really?
Of course, Mr Kelly’s constituents can always let their views be known to him…
I’m sorry but this is a seriously ill-informed piece about the legislation and it’s inner workings as well as the affect it has had on peoples lives. This bill is so bad it has united football fans from Edinburgh to Glasgow, from Perth to Aberdeen against it.
This reads as a complete propaganda piece.
But then again it’s only football fans who’s lives are being ruined for no reason, who cares about them. Not like this attitude has caused any disasters like Hillsbrough or anything is it.
You mention sectarianism three times in this article, that’s three times more than the bill itself does.
This is a terribly written piece of legislation that is the result of knee jerk gesture politics.
“This bill is so bad it has united football fans from Edinburgh to Glasgow, from Perth to Aberdeen against it.”
Oh fuck off. The protests at non-Glasgow grounds have been literally two or three people, and even in Glasgow a few dozen at best. The anti groups are laughably tiny, they just shout loudly and get amplified by the media. What’s the biggest EVER protest mounted in opposition to the Act? 50 people? Fewer? Show me pictures.
Presumably they are doing so in the hope that this will support their “Ulsterisation” of Scotland narrative.
It is indeed reprehensible to stir all this up at a time when Rangers are again about to reach the top flight, with some of their fans (please note I say *some* not *all*) believing it to be some sort of ‘revenge mission’ for ‘wrongs’ done to them in the past. I think (justly or not) there is a lot pent-up anger there and I don’t think these politicians are being at all responsible in trying to gain from stoking it.
It’s even worse when you consider that any further electoral gain from pursuing this is likely to be minimal anyway (have the Tories not already won a lot of the UK loyal vote?) so it’s a wrecking tactic designed to play up ‘divisiveness’.
The question of whether and how to re-draft the existing Act is a wholly different matter…..
Spot on, the sectarian divide was manufactured by our masters in London as a divide and conquer policy., in their eyes it was/is a success. Looks like the Ulsterisation of Scotland is their plan.
When Ruth the Mooth brings forward her proposals to repeal the Act I hope Nicola fixes Ruthie with a steely stare and recites slowly and carefully the unedited sectarian abusive chants at her and asks her to confirm that her vision for Scotland is one where foul abuse is to be encouraged. It would be interesting to see if presiding officer Ken McIntosh would allow Nicola to utter the words in the chamber – it would be hilarious if he ordered her to apologise for unparliamentary language and even more hilarious if Nicola were to refuse to withdraw and be suspended from the sitting.
Such a moron sometimes Rev. Existing laws were fine when used this act has been a sham. Now leave football to those who understand it. Given your previous commentary on other football related matters you would think you would leave it well alone.
I always thought the flooding onto the Glasgow streets of hordes of abusive, nazi-saluting Orange Order yobs on 19th September was orchestrated. But I didn’t think any of the mainstream unionist parties were responsible.
Looks like I was wrong. Divide and rule every time. How often will people fall for this?
Good holiday article!
Scotland has an issue with bigotry. We all agree on that. I’m sure the vast majority would like to see it disappear. I don’t believe this is the correct legislation to achieve it.
Firstly, there is the inconsistency in the fact that a person could sing a song in the street which is not illegal, other than tempting breach, but sing the very same song at a football match it becomes one!
Secondly, handing the police the role of determining what is or isn’t offensive worries me.
If political songs are to be proscribed, then make it explicit and clear!
I think it might be a poorly drafted law….but it’s needed.
Anyone who doubts that need only spend a lonely and soul destroying 90 minutes in the wee ‘away’ corner at Ibrox.
Once you’ve wiped off the bile and spittle you can cherish your memory of all those ‘traditional’ songs.
The other side of Glasgow is little better.
MajorBloodnok: “Remember that the Greens voted to push the trams through too, purely to discomfort the SNP and with no thought of the financial consequences for the people of Scotland.”
Nah, the Greens backed trams because they run on leccy rather than diesel.
“The latter’s manifesto pledge to abolish the Act came with no reasoning other than that the OBFA “arbitrarily criminalises football fans”, a definition of the word “arbitrarily” that we don’t recognise – rugby, shinty and curling fans have no history of violent bigotry in need of remedy.”
Yeah, the “arbitrary” angle is completely bizarre. It’s like saying drink driving laws arbitrarily target drivers.
The law may not be perfect but unless a better alternative is put forward what is the point? Do the opposing parties really want it to go back to how it was?
Do the Tories think it will be a distraction from what they are doing? The Scotland Office cartoon seems to show they view us a children.
Also think the other parties are being idiots if they line up behind Tories in this. Surely what they want to do if differentiate not allow Ruth as opposition leader narrative to continue.
Every comment so far is ‘on the ball’, excuse the pun.
AuldGranny yours is probably accurate and the most scary. If the Unionists can stir up enough sectarian trouble at the football grounds, then ‘Ulsterisation’ will be all they talk about and they will say Scotland will be descending into a place that Westminster will have to step in and ‘take control’ and I wouldn’t put it past them to remove the Scottish Parliament.
“the inconsistency in the fact that a person could sing a song in the street which is not illegal, other than tempting breach, but sing the very same song at a football match it becomes one!”
The “inconstancy” of recognising that one drunken eejit bigot wandering along the street singing a totally offensive song is different to a whole load of drunken eejit bigots singing the same song in a crowd of thousands, many of whom are tanked, a minority of whom will be out looking for a fight, some of whom will be families just trying to have a decent day out? That’s not an inconsistency – that’s recognising where and why there is a specific, major problem.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The politics of hatred It must be bewildering being the SNP sometimes. You win a historic third election with […]
The OFBA came up on the doorstep quite a lot during the campaign; the chief argument against being that it targeted fans ‘unfairly’ for being fans. In other words – football was being picked on simply because it was the most obvious manifestion of a wider sickeness.
And there’s a smidgeon of truth in that. You might argue that the whole ridiculous ‘marching season’ is just as offensive in its own way – perhaps far more so to people who have no interest in football. But further legislation runs the risk of veering into the draconian – banning marches altogether and so forth.
We’ll only see the disappearance of sectarianism when there’s a change in culture which makes it as unacceptable as overt racism. We can make a start by booting out local councils who depend for support on being far too cosy in their links with ‘tradition’, funny handshakes and all the rest. And without getting into the whole ‘faith schools’ business, we need to do far more to stop sectarianism arising as a consequence of the divide.
Right folks let’s get busy on this one – what proposals do people have to amend this act and improve it? Seems to me we need something but the present version is not the best it could be.
As far as I am aware there is no list of songs and individuals are targeted rather than the clubs. Would a docking of points if certain songs are heard be more effective? Any other suggestions?
Naked unashamed opportunism! What else do we expect from those who wish to divide and rule us rather than run the country for us.
These minority opposition parties are utterly contemptible for trying to play the sectarian card.
Davidson, Dugdail, Harvey and Rennie, get a grip! Listen to the people and stop playing with fireworks.
Rev Stu,
It would be interesting to find out which supporters had been prosecuted under this act?
You cite that either cheek feels victimised by the Act but I just wonder how many of either group has actually been penalised when you consider The Dons/Hearts/Hibs et al.
I would be quite happy to see the Act amended as it is a bit vague on what and what isn’t defined as Sectarian.
IIRC last year, the blue bigots were trying to get every other fan in Scotland prosecuted for calling them Huns – how that translates as being sectarian I have no clue.
You don’t see many Dons’ Fans having a cry for being called Sheep S******g B@st@rds
For certain people this could be deemed as being just as offensive.
Personally, my view is that the Clubs themselves should be held more accountable.
First offence – massive fine
Second offence – closed doors home game for offending team and if the cretins persist – points deduction
Pretty sure it’ll stop pretty quick after that.
“I would be quite happy to see the Act amended as it is a bit vague on what and what isn’t defined as Sectarian.”
I’d have no complaints if the opposition were lining up to demand it be revised and improved. It’s a bit of a dog’s breakfast. But abolishing it is madness.
This is from the Daily Mail.
So it must be true.
Under 17 GAME Celtic V Rangers at Firhill
link to dailymail.co.uk
Divide and rule from and early age. James Kelly and Tank commander know it makes sense.
This is a worrying time for the indy movement.
It is now clearer why that Torrance eejit and the STV one are promoting the word Ulsterisation.
There will be a concerted effort probably using agent provocateurs to stir up sectarian hatred.
SLAB have used the ‘divide’ for their own purposes in the past.
The vast majority will need to be on our guard as the media will play up any incidents to the max
Thankyou for once again exposing the sick heart of opposition politics in Scotland.
@ Simone – spot on. But we know that the other Unionist parties are idiots and do the Tories work for them. Indeed it is the Super Idiot, James Kelly, who is putting his name to the Bill.
The SFA have a part to play in this surely. These sectarian songs, on both sides, shame Scottish football and Scotland.
Can’t the Scottish government get them to be tougher on the problem?
@Cath
No-one mentioned drink, in my scenario of inconsistency. If a law is broken, numbers and state of inebriation should not be mitigating factors or otherwise.
O.B.F.A.,
Doing nothing is not an option, unless your in the political opposition.
kinivie -ban the funny handshake. Agreee but how do you propose this will happen?
You also say “And without getting into the whole ‘faith schools’ business, we need to do far more to stop sectarianism arising as a consequence of the divide.”
Why not get involved?
ALL parties including the SNP are scared of someone getting up in the pulpit saying vote for the other guy.
How radical is this— all children go to school from the same street, they attend the same classes but time out is permitted to ensure religious observance.
It is time for the repeal of the 1918 act and have a Community Schools act.
No more religious discrimination in schools, where you cannot be promoted because you have the wrong faith (or none). All parties are scared of this. Schools are currently being designed and built to segregate children. Shameful.
As for private schools they are NOT charities and should not be treated as such.
It is extremely nasty and worrying. Yoon culture gets ever more creepier, the more they get rejected at the ballot box. We’re plagued by a ghastly tory BBC led media but lets get them out of our councils next year too.
“The OBFA is just the first step. We could be in for an interesting five years.”
Therapy 😀
link to youtube.com
Divide and rule has always been the base for keeping control of locals. Now it will be the last ditch attempt of unionism in Scotland. They really have nothing to lose now, they don’t have the popular vote (and is constantly slipping away) so resort to scorched earth policy of sending Scotland back to the dark ages as long as it keeps the union together.
It’s all about ownership, the land, sea and people, losing Scotland would be a seismic event against the Brit-Nat Establishment. It will be akin to a revolution which those in power always fear. The next five years will determine if Scotland will break free and be independent or will forever be owned by others with no interest other than revenue and power.
Is there a possibility, howevere wee, that Slabour might abstain? Any possibility? At all? That they might abstain? Do they really want to chant and sing, once more, to the Tory tune?
Just asking.
Paula Rose says:
“Would a docking of points if certain songs are heard be more effective? Any other suggestions?”
I’ve said this for years. Within a few months the moronic element would get the message that they are killing their teams.
@ Paula Rose
What about a “Corporate Responsibility” clause. If a commercial organisation allows the law to be broken openly and takes no steps to remedy that, then it is the managers and the directors of that organisation who are responsible.
“No-one mentioned drink, in my scenario of inconsistency. If a law is broken, numbers and state of inebriation should not be mitigating factors or otherwise.”
That’s just utter nonsense. Of course crowds numbers and state of inebriation make a difference – a massive one. You have a huge issue when drink, hatred and large crowds all get together, and that’s precisely why so many families and kids have been unable to attend football matches in the past. It’s not pleasant, it’s not safe, it’s just bloody horrible to have crowds of tanked up people who’s key aim is causing offense and creating violence.
Having a law against singing a song – however offensive and nasty that song is – would be nuts. If a drunk (and lets be honest, these eejit bigots are always drunk when wandering along the street singing offensive songs) individual sings a song, he risks getting his head kicked in by some random bigot of another persuasion. Fine. Who cares? If the police need to intervene at some point, they do. Having a law against singing deliberately offensive songs, designed to create trouble at an event with thousands of people – most of whom are out for a good day and don’t want trouble is a completely different thing. Insist there should be a “right” to go all out to create sectarian trouble at football matches is just beyond bonkers.
“We’ll only see the disappearance of sectarianism when there’s a change in culture which makes it as unacceptable as overt racism.”
Which is the OBFA’s main achievement. Decades of lecturing people about smoking had almost no effect. Making it illegal indoors did more to make it socially unacceptable than a thousand public-information films.
The OBFA has a very limited effect in terms of criminal convictions, but it’s a really important gesture/statement. That’s why the arguments about “existing laws” are such a lot of horseshit. We’ve had most of those laws for a century and they got nowhere.
“Would a docking of points if certain songs are heard be more effective?”
It definitely would, but it’ll never ever happen. If the football authorities had started doing that years ago the OBFA wouldn’t have been necessary.
“Having a law against singing a song – however offensive and nasty that song is – would be nuts. If a drunk (and lets be honest, these eejit bigots are always drunk when wandering along the street singing offensive songs) individual sings a song, he risks getting his head kicked in by some random bigot of another persuasion. Fine. Who cares?”
Me.
“The Unionists are on a very dangerous tack. What they are doing is trying to build up a situation in Scotland where sectarianism is manifestly worse than it has been for the last five years.”
”Is that a good thing?”
“Ask them, they are doing it deliberately.”
‘What we can’t for the life of us work out is why opposition parties who’ve just been told to get stuffed by the electorate – James Kelly, the Labour MSP who’s said he’ll bring a repeal bill forward, was rejected by his constituents by 3,743 votes just days ago – think that the road to recovery lies in ganging up to smash some of the most popular laws ever passed by any government.’
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”
I am sure that ‘insanity’ and ‘stupidity’ in that quote could easily be interchangeable.
I am not a great believer in deeming someone stupid just because I do not agree with them, but when it comes to Yoons, they do seem to be mentally wired differently.
Agree Paula Rose and Rab Dickson, dock them at least three points for the first time it happens, six the next time. I’m damned sure it would stop it within a few weeks.
The main problem with that idea is the SFA, who are spineless, useless, and dae precicely SFA.
If, this is the best the opposition can do, amongst all the other things that need tackled in this country, with more of Georgy Porgy’s cut coming doon the line, God help us.
It’s time the opposition grew up. Awe right, you want to repeal this bill. Tell us then, what do you propose to put in it’s place, or do we just sit back and put up with awe the rubbish that goes along wi a gemme o’ fitba for some of these eejits. Come oan the ruth the mooth, whit ideas hae ye goat. We’re a’ waitin.
Does it really matter if the act gets removed at this stage?
It has been in place for years yet still every single The Rangers game you can hear the “tiny minority” up to their knees in the blood of Catholics clear as a bell.
The police don’t care.
Even if they did, a few hundred of them wouldn’t be able to arrest the thousands (tens of thousands at Ibrox games) who are guilty.
For me the only positive I can take from this is, if this is the best the Yoons have to offer to improve Scotland future, then there is really no place for them in a future Scotland.
It really is now only a matter of time before the younger generation reject this morally corrupt union.
The OBFA might not be the best but it is a step in the right direction going by the figures produced.
I don’t think the offensive singing and chanting will ever be stopped completely in the near future, but we must try to limit it if possible before eradicating it altogether.
Been going to football for more than 50yrs and things are a bit better than long ago, remember the bottles flying and the pitch invasions.
This Unionist tactic will only make things erupt again. It only needs a small spark to start an inferno.
With the 2017 council elections looming it’s great to see slab siding with the tories to destroy a popular law that actually makes people’s life better. Do you think they will ever learn?
simple
in 2017
take control of gcc
then ban orange walks
#(non)Greensbad
#(non)GreensUnionist&NOPartybad/corrupt/nondemocratic&ilegal/bunch/of/rejects
Sectarianism will only disappear when Gov take positive action to stop it. The only thing that has ever put a stop to Offensive loutish behaviour is the Offensives Football Act. A bad Act but it works.
That is why they are all complainting. .
The thing that will stop sectarianism is church membership falling. Church membership is falling faster than a sieve losses water. Sectsrianism is one of the causes.
Gov should have stepped in long ago. To stop Orange Marches in Glasgow every week. Intergrate
education, etc. These measures should have been taking long ago. Until sectarianism was wiped
out. It is illegal, non equal, unfair on every level, supports criminal behaviour and costs the economy £Millions/Billion. Causes violence and stops investment.
The rejects had better stop they illegal abnoxious behaviour. Trying to muck up the economy and people’s lives.
2017 wipe them out and then sectarianism can be tackled at the roots. Root causes.
Docking points will never happen. The Clubs would be out of business. There is no provision under Scottish Law for ‘collective punishment’.
A few thoughts on this.
Ridicule is one answer to people indulging in sectarianism.
Perhaps a very loud and visual campaign on Social Media to get the following recognised and enter popular culture.
In answer to Religious sectarianism;
God doesn’t exist, so stop being an Arse.
In answer to Tribalism; i.e. sectarianism based on support for a football team;
It’s only a ball/game/scarf – Don’t be an Arse.
In answer to sectarianism based on Irish roots;
Don’t be an Arse, you’re not Irish.
In answer to exclusively Rangers sectarianism;
Don’t be an Arse. The Queen isn’t.
If you’re stuck for identifying the source and just want to generalise.
Use one of the following;
Only an Arse; Don’t be an Arse; Neanderthals aren’t Arses;
Of course, any politician that uses this subject as a political “football” is a Huge Smelly Arse!
Etc
Make the clubs responsible, progressive fines for repeated transgressions. I see that as the main way to go some way to stopping it. The clubs can then threaten to remove offenders from the club and grounds.
Given the prospect of financial losses, the clubs will HAVE to try and prevent this. It will not stop altogether it is ingrained.
To be banned from the club and it’s games would calm a lot of supporters. Not all as I say, but I see it as the only option.
“Even though largely symbolic”
Perhaps that is the definition of good legislation.
I have never being to a football match. I never will. So I can only talk in general terms about what IMO makes for a law abiding society.
Are laws in place just to fine and imprison transgressors? Or, are they to clarify what behaviour is expected by (literally) law abiding citizens?
Having a set of rules, enacted by our duly chosen representatives, plays a huge part in what makes a society civilised. In a perfect society those rules would be respected and never broken.
In our less that perfect country it appears 80% agree with the OBFA and those breaking this law are usually found guilty.
As the Rev says, those transgressors have never achieved the label ‘martyr’, as they might should the law be a bad one.
I hope the SG get a majority on this should it be tested.
THIS IS ABOUT FOOTBALL
I wrote, when OBFA hit the statute book: this was bad law, poorly drafted and hurriedly introduced. I still hold this to be the case, but, this cannot alter the fact – some sort of law was needed.
Why was it needed? Because Scottish football had proved incapable of self-policing. Bad behaviour at Scottish football matches, in particular when the Bigot Brothers meet, is nothing new. Although, sectarianism, religious bigotry and Northern Irish political history had nothing to do with the first, and thus-far biggest riot involving the fans of the BBs, they have been rioting and causing unrest since 1909. In the 107 years since, football has never done enough to lance the boil.
It cannot be denied, one side’s “sectarian song” is another side’s “Irish folk song”. a group of people singing a song in a Belfast pub on a Friday night is one thing, 30,000 singing the same song, in a Glasgow football ground the next day is quite another.
The two clubs, and to try to blame one more than the other is to open the can of worms called: “Whitabootery”, know, sectarianism sells, so, they are under no pressure to do anything about it. The SFA ought to have acted lang syne, but, perhaps the two clubs are too-big and too-powerful to be brought to heel by the rest. If they will not act – they should be forced to act. OBFA us an effor at implementing the action the game of football refuses to take.
Well it hasn’t taken the fekking Greens too long before they showed their Unionist colours has it?
As a young man I used to go to a pub near Glasgow cross prior to the game. Inside the front door was a sign which read “No colours OR people of Colour”.
I lived in or around the West of Scotland all my adult life and have seen first hand both the “friendly” rivalry and the hateful bigotry as well. It still exists under the pseudonym banter.
I have known people killed for their particular allegiance to a team and have witnessed mass brawls on Shettleston Rd between rival supporters of the Old Firm
The clubs encourage bigotry because it is the basis of their business. The politicians now encourage it because it is the vote base for power. People are used and abused for the end game of others ,and seem happy to comply.
I detest the Cancer of sectarianism in all its forms coming as I do from a religiously divided family. Neither have enough redeeming factors to mitigate for these choices.
“The OBFA might not be the best but it is a step in the right direction”
This is the thing really. I don’t think many of us would be lining up to claim the OBFA is the best legislation in the world. There’s a lot wrong with it. If the opposition were offering constructive suggestions for changing or re-drafting it to make it better, or radically alternative ideas to combat sectarianism, they’d be vaguely useful as an opposition.
A Westminster alliance (aided by the Greens) to simply abolish the one attempt that has been made to address the sectarian issue in Scotland – one that was generations overdue – just makes them look even more pointless, spiteful and dangerous to Scotland than they already did. And that’s saying something.
This reminds one of the ganging up against minimum alcohol pricing.
“Strong possibility” of terror attack on UK from Northern Ireland as threat is increased to substantial
link to mirror.co.uk
I suspect that the sudden narrative conflating nationalism with “Ulsterisation” has been meticulously timed.
This cynic will be keeping a watchful eye on whether any terror attacks take place in Scotland, in support of their narrative.
Capella, you’re a very staunch defender of Patrick Harvie and the Green party, so what’s the real Green deal on this particular Green blocking?
What’s Green about sectarian violence, is probably too trite to ask but it would be interesting to hear your views.
Thank you for the article and your additional comment at 11.22.
People who are against this piece of legislation argue that it should be repealed because so few people are charged under this law and a lot of them are found not guilty or the case dismissed Specious arguments.
It is not the purpose of any law to hit some target number of prosecutions. Neither is its purpose to guarantee guilty verdicts every time.
If there are technical issues with the way the legislation is written then they can be addressed without repealing the law.
The very fact that the legislation exists sends a message to people about what society finds acceptable and what it does not.
This whole repeal business is pure political point scoring by the other parties who see it as a way to score an easy ‘victory’ over the SNP and never mind the consequences for the people who will suffer if it is repealed.
wgd, pure dead brilliant
The Union is killing us, and the Union doesn’t care. But we care. And we’re not going to go down quietly. No more a hacking cough, Glasgow rings with the death rattle of the Union. We’ve had enough of this crap. Last year we evicted the Labour MPs that have sat on their hands for generations, filling their pockets at our expense. This year we cleared out the MSPs. Next year it’s the council’s turn. We’re going to change this city. We’re going to change Scotland. We’re going to change the world. We’re going to show you a Glasgow effect that is going to ruin the Union’s health, we’ll take back the levers of power and control. And this time it’s not the people of Glasgow who will suffer from a short life expectancy, it’s the United Kingdom whose days are numbered. We’ll show the Union a real Glasgow effect.
There must be some people sitting thinking, ‘Well, that second vote to the Greens seems to have worked out a treat, not.’
Scotland wont change unless we vote to change it
Oh wait we just did that, but getting the SNP elected again was not as high on some folks agenda as others so here’s the result and it wont be the last
Every one, yes, every one of these opposition parties will now exercise every little bit of their new found power to screw over the SNP on every piece of business there is so there’ll be plenty of opportunity for those who thought it would be OK to vote another way like the media said because the SNP were going to win really really Ginormously well this is the payback for that
The bitterness of the other parties is only matched by their irrelevance but in order to make themselves relevant they’ll team up every chance they get and they’ll smile nicely for the camera while they do it
There’s a whole raft of legislation to destroy coming up and all four opposition parties will take full advantage so maybe perhaps when the council elections come up folk will have the chance to prove the opposition wrong and vote SNP this time to show them we don’t have short term memory loss
It certainly proves that wee “Rainbow Parliaments” and or Coalitions don’t lead to better or bolder decisions does it when something that was helping tackling sectarianism says NO off you go and
sing once again joyfully about murdering somebody else over something they believe in that never existed in the first place, another lie fabricated by man in order to control other men
It still works though
Thought I’d drop this in here:
link to imgur.com
Good article by The National on this issue:
link to archive.is
Critics of The National will be pleased to hear that it is almost impossible to get one in newsagents, specially W.H.Smith ones. In the rural North East only the Coop keeps a few copies. I have an online subscription so can still access articles.
Both sides of the Old Firm thrive on sectarianism and bigotry hence their initial and continued joint opposition to the legislation.
Recently a “fracas” during Celtics recent title clinching win at Tynecastle resulted in several Celtic fans being detained by Police as they attempted to enter the ground without valid tickets.
They “gloriously”splashed the incident across social media where irate Celtic fans could clearly be heard blaming the SNP,Nicola Sturgeon and Police Scotland for the injustice of it all.(expletives and reference to religion just for good measure).
Seriously In the same week as The Hillsborough verdict it actually beggars belief but that’s what we’re up against.
I very much hope that the Greens do not allow themselves to be played like a drum by the Blue Tories. That is precisely why the Red Tories are in the mess they are in — and in perenial decline.
Harvey could play a blinder by letting this thing be put to a vote… and actually vote alongside Nicola to defeat the Unholy Trinity of Blue, Yellow and Red Tories.
It would put the Greens at the centre of attention afterwards, something a fourth placed party badly needs.
As the Act is so popular among the people of Scotland, this could be VERY good PR for the Greens… all eyes on next year’s council elections, remember?!?
Fraser at 10:30 “But then again it’s only football fans who’s lives are being ruined for no reason”
I’m sorry but their _lives are being ruined_ by not being able to sing about being up their knees in fenian blood etc during the course of a football game?
That is the funniest thing I’ve read all week.
@Cath
your missing my point. My point, removing numbers and drink, is about the inconsistency around the fact that I could sing a song which is NOT ILLEGAL – when sung at a football match comes under the determination of a police officer.
Imagine any other activity becoming illegal due to being at an event. Knitting. You can knit all day on your doorstep, but take that knitting to the pictures and you are subject to arrest!
That’s what I have the issue with. Besides, the police don’t tend to arrest people at the games. They film them, gather intelligence and then arrest them with a dawn raid at their homes – like terrorist or drug dealers!
While I would like to see the Offensive Behaviour (football) act amended and strengthened.
However the naked opportunism of the leaders of the Tories, Labour, Libdems and the greens who want to see this act abolished is a sight to behold.
If they do manage to succeed in abolishing the OB act
Then Patrick Harvie, Ruth Davidson, Kezia Dugdale and Wullie Rennie must be held to account if there is any increase in offensive behaviour and domestic abuse resulting from the repeal of the act.
Hamish100 at 11.12
You want to make absolutely sure that we will never get independence?
Just hack off a huge community in Central Scotland that is now in huge majority supporting independence.
MajorBloodnok says:
“keeping two parts of the same society at each other’s throats rather than working together to make things better.”
This has been historic policy at all levels in Scotland.
My understanding was that Catholics (Irish immigrants) and Protestants (clearance victims from throughout rural Scotland) were housed in separate areas purposely to foster competition and prevent a united workforce.
Similarly, Catholic schools were set up by local authorities intentionally to separate from an impressionable age. It is often thought that Catholic schools were begun because of pressures of the RC church. Propaganda. Unionist and business dominated local authorities wanted to reinforce the sectarian divide in every way, intentionally.
This divide and rule was part of ‘class warfare’. Now it is still being used for different anti democracy purposes.
@ heedtracker
I don’t agree with the Greens on this issue. Let’s see what happens in a vote. If they vote against the SNP they will have shot themselves in the foot – not for the first time.
Perhaps if the act is repealed the SNP could write to UEFA informing them that they no longer have a means of preventing sectarian behaviour at Scottish football and if alcohol is permitted, the increased risk of violence.
That they could aid UEFA by continued monitoring and reporting of such misdemeanors but any measures or sanctions would have to be their responsibility.
e.g. Crowdless European ties or complete bans from European competition for the clubs involved.
Much like the Named Person service, it’s difficult for me not to get extremely frustrated with people over this.
I’d written about my youth and the role sectarianism had in it on my blog before. As the son of a protestant father & catholic mother, I got hit with both barrels, from both sides. My pals at Scouts making anti-Catholic remarks; my schoolmates making anti-Protestant remarks.
I loved playing sports as a small boy. I enjoyed football for the first few years of primary. But when celebrations are marked by singing songs of violence against your family, even the game itself starts to lose its luster.
I distinctly remember the first time I heard “The Billy Boys.” We were all about 8 or 9. Because I was in all-protestant company, they felt it was fine to sing it, belting out that line. They knew fine well my mother was Catholic, my grandparents and aunt & uncle. They sang it, knowing they were singing about my mother – my family.
And I remember when my school friends talked about “the proddies.” That they had no souls; they didn’t believe in God; they wanted to kill all the Catholics. They knew fine well my father was Protestant, my paternal grandparents, and cousins. They said these horrible things, knowing they were talking about my father – my family.
This never went away. Football was synonymous with sectarianism – with hatred, mistrust, abuse. Any time the abuse came up, I was the target, regardless of which side I was on – for the truth was I was on nobody’s side, because no-one was on my side. And I got sick of it. I was sick of hearing about Bobby Sands. I was sick of the Sash. I was so sick of it, I couldn’t even stand to watch a game of football, much less play it. To this day, I skip the Rev’s Twitter whenever he talks football – because football has been so poisoned to me I just can’t stand it.
So forgive me if I don’t have much sympathy for people whose “liberties” are being “trampled” on because they may face consequences for singing abuse. What about my liberties? What about my right not to be the target of sectarian abuse by my mere existence? Your right to sing about being up to your knees in my ancestor’s blood ends when you find yourself one of thousands thundering a song of hatred – because that’s what it is, no matter what you dress it up as.
And guess what? That applies equally to the other side. Yes, there’s a historic problem with anti-Catholicism in Scotland – but “elevating” Bobby Sands to the Protestant hate anthems is acknowledging that singing a tribute to an Irish martyr central to the sectarian Troubles during a game of football is powerful and emotive in entirely the wrong ways.
I’m sick to death of this “controversy” for something that has overwhelming backing from the people. I’m not being “anti-working class” – my family history is of engineers, electricians, cleaners and soldiers. I’m not being “anti-football” – this is not about the game at all. I’m not being “anti free-speech” – this isn’t “free speech,” it’s abuse. I’m asking for people to recognise that their “liberty,” their “tradition,” their “free speech,” to sing sectarian songs has given me, personally, nothing but pain and misery.
God. Enough. I’m done.
The ideal outcome is that the Greens do the ‘decent thing’ and vote with the government.
Perhaps there can be a fig leaf for them, regarding their manifesto, with a commitment from the government to promote further anti sectarian social initiatives.
Great article Rev Stu – hit the nail on the button.
I expected the three yoon parties and the MSM to big up the sectarian vote in Scotland – that is what they have always done – Divide and Conquer.
Not sure what the Greens are up to though on this?
Hopefully, the Greens will see sense and work with the SNP on this and other future policies and not be pulled into an unholy alliance with the yoons.
I do not think it would be a wise move to piss off the SNP so early in the 5 year term. I cannot really see any of the yoon parties joining with them to push through any of their progressive and left wing policies.
Greens should consider this very carefully!
They (The Fascists United) seem to be putting foreward the argument that it is a bad law because there have only been 79 convictions.
‘A report published earlier this year revealed there were only 79 convictions in 2014/15, under the legislation, with opposition parties stating the figures demonstrated the law is unnecessary.’
That seems to me to suggest that the law acts as a deterrent.
galamcennalath
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if a breakout on Green support was extracted, that there was considerably more than 80% of them in favour of the act.
Green fact is pretty straight forward. They are going to use James Kelly repeal bill to flex their new Holyrood muscle. Its the UKOK way of the game.
To be fair, it wouldn’t matter to the Greens what this was all about, lets just see how powerful we are and we know that the tory BBC led UKOK media will boost us to UKOK heaven, when we do deliver that massively tasty UKOK blow to Sturgeon.
Or is all of the above just going to make WoS reading Greens go, stop being horrid to us Greens, do as we say and be nice to us, or we’ll even block ref 2. Oh yes we will.
One answer would be to make the club responsible for the conduct of fans.
They can deal with fans when it affects their revenue streams so why not their image?
Rangers tried to placate everybody by signing the odd Catholic here and there. An act which would have received no publicity in any other country in the world,but made front page news here in Scotland, so rare an event it was.
Celtic tried to muzzle the Green Brigade from indulging in their views,but eventually came to a compromise.
Laughably today I hear the Tories are trying to introduce a Bill on extremism and racial and religious extremism which covers even the topic we are discussing,whilst here in Scotland the Tories are trying to ramp it up. Sick world of the Union.
‘Scottish Tory chief whip John Lamont said: “Having prevented the SNP from gaining an overall majority, we can now use the powers of the parliament to scrap some of the bad laws they passed in the last one.
“To do that, opposition parties need to work together’
It will be interesting to see if the opposition parties do work together. If they do I think they merit the name ‘Fascists United’
Will John Lamont be the spokesman for the ‘Fascists United Group or will it be James Kelly.
Heedtracker 11.54
You will find the Green position here.
Now if those sings were expressing hatred of LGBTs ….
link to greens.scot
“There is no place for sectarianism in Scottish football, however Scottish Greens believe that the Offensive Behaviour in Football Act (2012) unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression and is not the most effective means of addressing these concerns. We support the repeal of the Act and instead would support fans to take action against sectarianism in their own clubs through fan ownership.”
I suppose no matter how the Greens vote, it will at least let everyone see their true colours.
mike cassidy says:
16 May, 2016 at 12:20 pm
Heedtracker 11.54
Thanks!
“We support the repeal of the Act and instead would support fans to take action against sectarianism in their own clubs through fan ownership.”
Wonder how Green support would go down at Ibrox. Greens are at a fork in their road to wherever the feck they think they are going.
Greens can either go after toryboy world in Scotland (because blue tories are the actual owners of their Scotland region) like what the SNP do do, in Holyrood and Westminster every day or they can work hand in hand with yoonsters like the BBC, SLab, Ruth MacThatcher etc, to take down Sturgeon.
Its a toughee Greens. But it really shouldn’t be.
For those trying to shift the blame onto football
I’ve yet to hear a ball sing anything or beat anybody up or hate anybody, it’s a game taken over and misused by racist sectarian thugs for their own ends
It’s not football violence, it’s people violence and I don’t care who’s side anybody is on they’re ALL wrong and the only way they’ve managed to get away with it for so long is crowd anonymity,and that makes them cowards thinking they can hide amongst others
Whether the law is bad good or indifferent is totally meaningless, it’s a start and that’s what’s important and the SNP were prepared to make a start but it seems others just want to stop the SNP and couldn’t care less about the law, although we’ll hear the bleating excuses to the contrary from the Parties either hoping to claim some Kafflick votes from one side or Prodisint votes from the other and in truth neither will come to pass because these thugs don’t even have any allegiance to the religion they claim to support
“Even though largely symbolic (police can’t arrest thousands of people en masse), and despite some poor drafting and a considerable degree of obstructive hostility from the judiciary,”
With the utmost respect, you’ve just conceded the pointlessness of the law in the first place.
If, by your own admission, a law is unenforceable, symbolic and guilty of poor drafting (not to mention judicial hostility – the experts in the law) then it does raise the question: what is it’s point?
It has no function if it can’t be enforced. It has no credibility if, by its supporters own admission, it’s badly drafted. And it has precious little ethical credibility in the law if the judiciary are, to quote you, “hostile” to it.
If anything is ‘unholy’, surely it’s retaining a law under these circumstances?
If this act were to he repealed it would make the Scottish Parliament appear as an absolute shame. A bunch of mostly rejected, non directly elected MSP repealing an act in opposition to those directly (for the most part) by the people, of which those people largely support it.
Somewhat makes the House of Lords look legitimate… Perhaps that’s going too far but you get the point.
Taranaich
I so agree with all that you have said.
Capella says:
16 May, 2016 at 12:01 pm
Local newsagents carry the National here but complain because of the few copies they get from Menzies.
Tescos always have them as does the Coop but the Coop hides them on a shelf and not on the main stand where all the other daily’s are!
Very well said, Taranaich. It is abuse and politicians who want to allow it are enabling abuse whether they acknowledge as much or not.
The mitigating factor being put across by some apparently is that this is happening in a crowd in a football stadium. Were the incident to happen in the middle of a busy shopping centre by a group of say 40 supporters would this be different?
Are we really saying that we are tolerating a venue where singing about hate,bigotry,and violence against others is acceptable I. E. in a football stadium?
If that is the case then we are saying it is acceptable in the “right” circumstances.
It wouldn’t long for the supporters of club A to suss out that singing Club B’s sectarian songs could be a points winner!
Will the Greens really be so stupid as to align with the Blue and Red Tories, and Carmichael’s Truth party?
If Patrick Harvey is clever he should do a deal to vote with the SNP to stop the act’s repeal then introduce an amendment which they could back.
I suspect this is a big deal because Ruth & freinds are desperate to show they can live up to their bravado post SS16 & this is their very best chance of putting a cohesive voice on any matter.
The reality is that is just two Vote can be show that it would be wrong to destroy a very popular act but to work from it. Then the illusion the the unionist media has cast of a ham strung SNP will be put to rest.
galamcennalath at 12.08
Catholic Schools were not set up by local authorities. They were set up by Catholic parishes to provide schooling in areas of Scotland where a large immigrant Irish population was facing massive discrimination including resistance to allowing “wee taigs” into local schools. The 1918 Education Act was an act of generosity which brought these underfunded schools into the support of the state education sector. They are only supported in areas where the size of Catholic population justifies their provision.
Oddly enough “faith schools” don’t seen to cause any problem except in Scotland. One wonders why?
Isn’t the problem perhaps a residual anti Irish anti Catholic bigotry which was in fact perfectly respectable in Scotland until fairly recently.
The fact is that if we were starting today all schools would be secular (except those funded by faith organisations which those organisations have every democratic right to do)but we are not starting today. There is historical baggage and remains a totemic issue for a large community in West and Central Scotland. Much of this was the Labour core vote. They are coming with us now. Show some respect.
“There is no place for sectarianism in Scottish football, however Scottish Greens believe that the Offensive Behaviour in Football Act (2012) unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression and is not the most effective means of addressing these concerns. We support the repeal of the Act and instead would support fans to take action against sectarianism in their own clubs through fan ownership.”
Are the Greens arguing that we should be able to express ourselves in any way we want? Are they proposing to have all race/hate crimes repealed?
What kind of action are they proposing fans take against sectarianism? Are they proposing that fans police the football stadiums?
It’s always disappointing that these opposition politicians are never able to come up with an alternative solution to the problem.
Great article, this has to be exposed at every opportunity, for what it is, unionist, opportunist, SNP baaadd.
Just look at what these dangerous, criminal, lying cheating gits are saying. They want to scrap an act which actually keeps the peace to all intents and purposes. Whatever the faults, so called of this act, just to look at the graph, we can all see that it is effective in ensuring that this deliberate, imbecilic and orchestrated behaviour is kept at bay, and out of our communities.
The attempts by the unionists, to stoke up fear and hatred in Scotland has been unsuccessful, so what better way to reintroduce divide.
As I have said here before, I was shocked at the contempt held by friends, family and acquaintances in NE england last year, towards Scotland. Some saying that we would ‘end up like Syria’ and that we were nigh-on a fascist state. UKok state run media, will demonise Scotland, because once you create even an illusion of discord and division, you have the right to go in and sort the barbarians out especially when they are your direct neighbour.
They will do their best to reach their goal, to portray Scotland as an uncontrollable, sectarian, barbaric state, for all the world to judge.
Dangerous bigots have no place in Scotland, we have to make sure to counter this attack from the unionists at all levels, the real criminals are those with the power, and those who choose to create divide, ie the london UK government unionists, and not those who work to keep the peace, ie the SNP government.
What a job we have on our hands, the debunking of the lies and fear tactics is very much an ongoing concern, in fact it is becoming even more essential that we have WoS and WGD, and Carltonjock etc.
Will there be free chibs supplied at the matches?
There are many issues facing Scotland – being allowed to sing about washing your knees in blood or whatever isn’t high on my to do list. That it is for others sopeaks more of their lack of imagination than anything else. They might also consider that the primary flash point has not existed for the last four years either.
They could repeal this and then when the wheels come off start demanding the Scottish Government “do something” all over again.
Velofello @ 12.46
(1) It already happens.
(2) Yes.
The unionists scoured the legislation for their best chance of inflicting an early defeat on the SNP.
It has nothing to do with good law or bad law. It has nothing to do with the lives of those in Scotland. It is merely scalp hunting for any “victory” can be amplified by the MSM into a Ruth Davidson (Unionist win).
A law that the people like and helps end decades of bigotry is reduced to political point scoring. I hope at least a couple of non-SNP MSP think long and hard before they jump on this particular bandwagon.
@ Ruby
I think what they are proposing is that clubs should not be private companies run by Boards of Directors, but should be owned by the fans, like Barcelona. I have no idea how they propose to engineer that situation.
But I know very little about football. Even what I do know is probably wrong.
Could thousands of Orange Order bluenoses belting out GSTQ at an Old Firm game constitute offensive behaviour? Might we actually see people arrested for singing our beloved national anthem? Heaven forfend!
Can someone help me out ,under the OBA which specific songs are deemed to be the illegal ones?
i know if I smoke in Buchanan Galleries i am breaking the law.
I know if I drink 5 pints and drive I am breaking the law.
However if I attend a football match I have an idea which songs are offensive, however I do not know which are illegal.
Does anyone know, or is it at the whim of a passing PC Plod?
Great piece, Rev.
It matters not that some idiots choose to call this piece prejudiced, the facts are laid out before them.
Lots of good suggestions about getting the clubs to shoulder the burden of the knuckle draggers, as opposed to the public purse, and folk like me who don’t care about football.
The police and Womens Aid, have supplied the figures for increase in domestic violence after Old Firm games, and this has been going on for DECADES.
I suppose when it’s the last gasp.of the Union, and there is no case for it, you have to dredge in the latrines for something to use against the SG.
I thought Harvie hedged slightly yesterday with Brewer, who was peeing his pants to raise this with Harvie.
Harvie muttered about taking it back into a Justice Committee for amendments, rather than repeal. If he has any sense, he will discuss it with the FM, and work out the strategy.
Curtailing freedom of expression? My fking arse!
@:Fraser says: 16 May, 2016 at 10:30 am:
“I’m sorry but this is a seriously ill-informed piece about the legislation and it’s inner workings as well as the affect it has had on peoples lives.”
Nah! You are not in the slightest sorry. You are delighted in attempting to jump on the same band-waggon as the rest of the minority political parties in Scotland.
Furthermore, also like the opposition parties at Holyrood, you make a seriously doubtful claim, “This bill is so bad it has united football fans from Edinburgh to Glasgow, from Perth to Aberdeen against it.”
Of course it has, there is an exodus from all corners of Scotland, (and a few more from Ireland), to any football encounter involving the two most sectarian orientated and historically Irish, supported clubs, (and not even only when they play each other). I doubt, though, it involves a majority of the actual followers of the other city football clubs.
If that constitutes, “united football fans from Edinburgh to Glasgow, from Perth to Aberdeen against it”, then Ah hae muckle doots mony o thaim micht be supporters o Aberdeen, Dundee, Dundee United, St Johnstone, Hibs, Herts or indeed ony ither toon’s ain clubs.
The statistics not only show the legislation is supported by a majority of Scots but other stats show that the sectarianism, involved by those two teams in particular, has resulted in a constant loss of support for top flight football right across Scotland.
Very strange that anyone would be trying to raise sectarian tensions in Scotland when we’ve all seen the mess that made in Northern Ireland.
As a devoted football fan I full support this article. I would like to see the football authorities held to account for their non action.
I don’t look forward to the return of Der Bosch/Evil Empire to the SPFL but my beloved Dundee United craftily managed to escape next seasons fixtures with them.
BTW, what part of incitement do those screaming about their freedoms not understand?
Why is it that these alleged football fans can’t attend a match for 90 mins, and enjoy the sport, without singing these songs?
But I know very little about football. Even what I do know is probably wrong.
That probably applies to the Greens of Scotland too.
Its interesting how, Scottish Greens believe that the Offensive Behaviour in Football Act (2012) unnecessarily restricts freedom of expression, yet same Greens totally ignore huge Scottish OBFA majority support, and ofcourse Greens are only in Holyrood thanks to D’Hondt.
Its all about what your Green definition of freedom of expression is maybe.
link to wingsoverscotland.com
The Scottish government I hope will put it to the vote as is and make the opposition parties vote it down because that will make the National news on all platforms UK and EU wide and will show up Scotlands petty opposition for what it is
The Tories, Labour, Liberal Democrats and The Green Party
ALL
SUPPORT sectarian offensive behaviour at football matches
Nearly forgot Labour wants to bring back Alcohol as well
Good for business they say, they must mean A&E business I guess
The three main Unionist parties all have a long history of vested interest in sectarianism: both ends to the middle. Patrick Harvie is being courted by the Unionist media to vote against the SNP and may be just daft enough to just do that and sign his own suicide note.
What songs are offensive? Come on guys.You know the score on that one. I know the words to many of them and I have not gone to football for many years.
Your songs on either side are offensive to either my mother or father coming from mixed marriage. ( Imagine ,I even have to use that phrase to describe my parents).
There are plenty of acceptable ones.
For example:
“Founded in 1899 by a group of Swiss, English and Catalan footballers led by Joan Gamper, the club has become a symbol of Catalan culture and Catalanism, hence the motto “Més que un club” (More than a club).
Unlike many other football clubs, the supporters own and operate Barcelona. It is the second most valuable sports team in the world, worth $3.56 billion, and the world’s second richest football club in terms of revenue, with an annual turnover of €560.8 million. The official Barcelona anthem is the “Cant del Barça”, written by Jaume Picas and Josep Maria Espinàs.”
That would reduce the malign influence of what Kenny McKenna calls “the Blazerati”.
I don’t see how the greens proposal for fans to own football clubs will put a stop the offensive behaviour at football matches.
If Labour sides with the tories on this one, they can kiss there councils goodbye. The rank and file will not support religious bigots on their streets.
After a referendum which NO narrowly won, a general election in which one Tory MP was returned and a Scottish election in which they got just 20% of the vote, the Scottish conservatives have deduced that the most important issue facing the Scottish people is the offensive behaviours at football act. Stunning!
It’s clear to me where the offensive behaviour is coming from, the red and blue tories standing shoulder to shoulder, as ever.
My hope for the future is these political poisonalities,never hold power/influence again in our country,they shame themselves,they shame Scotland.
Not it my name.
@Gary says: 16 May, 2016 at 10:39 am:
“Such a moron sometimes Rev. Existing laws were fine when used this act has been a sham.”
The stats prove, Garry that the act has been exactly the opposite of a sham. They prove to have been highly effective. Thus, Garry, to claim the Rev is a Moron only serves to indicate that there is something moronic in reading those states and failing to grasp their significance.
“Now leave football to those who understand it.
Are we to take it as read that those who, “Understand Football”, would be YOU Garry?
Given your previous commentary on other football related matters you would think you would leave it well alone.
Oh! Aye! What other commentary related matters would those be, Garry? Do please elucidate for we poor uncouth, uneducated, misunderstood morons who lack knowledge of the finer points of the Beautiful Game?
I’ll put that another way for you, Garry.
Are you now, or have you ever been, a supporter of a sectarian orientated, Irish political/religious motivated, Glasgow based Football Club?
See and mind tae tell the truth, Garry.
Try googling either Rangers or Celtic fan forums and look at the content therein. Coming as it does from people who identify themselves from all walks of life.
Plenty of references to Taigs, Tarriers, hun scum, fenian, the choice is endless. It happens outside the grounds already so why do we need to allow it inside as well? Have a happy family day out dodging the objects thrown (coins) and letting your kids hear both sides of the religious debate set to music. Teach them to participate whilst they are young and impressionable.
You know you want to.
Really, when you step back and have a right look at this, it’s no more than the opposition deciding to try and give the SNP government a bloody nose Just cause we can, so there.
Pathetic. As I said earlier, Ruth, where are your policies, amendments to the bill, or even an idea might be welcome. But just because you think that you won the election you have to try and prove SNP BAAAAD, cause I’m the big cheese aroon here. Gie’s a break. Are you trying to keep this up for the next 5 years.
Never did trust the greens, and they seem to be showing their true colours already. SLAB, should be afraid, very afraid. There’s still the cooncil elections to come next, and we’re no din wi’ you yet.
As an Arab myself, I think I’m not in a minority of thoe supporters of OTHER teams saying I don’t really care about this legislation. Generally I don’t agree with singling out any particular groups for special treatment or attention, whether that be creating a label specially for Jews (anti-Semitism) or for those obsessed with Irish religion and history. Did the polls ask how much people cared?
What I do care about is Unionist parties sitting down looking at weaknesses in the SNP to attack them and at the same time build up loyalty from a minority of (probably mostly) bigots who actually DO care about this legislation and are opposed. Like big Jim’s ‘vote for me I’ll let you drink at the footy’, I don’t think this form of populism is going to get you too far and it makes you look a bit Micky Mouse in your quality ratings, but let’s face it, that’s been the biggest problem for Labour and LibDems (at least in terms of public perception) for a while and maybe the Tories want to join them.
As for Scotland’s seemingly unique fascination for Irish history and Catholics v Protestants, I think it’s sadly a bit of a distraction from the real discrimination which takes place today against immigrants and economic under classes. I always remember a law tutor of mine years ago saying that she didn’t notice a lot of religious discrimination amongst the Judiciary in Scotland: they all seemed to have gone to Glasgow High or St Aloysius.
”Right across the press and politics spectrum, not one voice can be found speaking up in favour of the Act.
*** Except, that is, for the VOICE of the PEOPLE.” ***
Well that’s it in a nutshell Stu. That’s why the SNP have managed to ”win a historic third election with a second massive landslide, getting more than twice as many seats as their (your) nearest challenger – the first time such a thing has ever happened in a Holyrood election – on the back of what’s (self-evidently) by and large a very popular policy programme and record ….”
THEY listen to the people but it’s clear that the ‘Unionist’ parties in Scotland don’t, rather are listening to their ‘Ulsterisation hype’ bosses in London …. Again. ”Do all you can to discredit Nicola Sturgeon and smash the SNP / Independence movement no matter the impact on Scotland. Divide and conquer.”
They think they’re being smart …. hey ho look at how powerful we are, however the Scots are watching them all VERY closely now and this move wont be doing them any favours especially if sectarian violence and disgusting rhetoric exacerbates.
I can see where the the Tories are coming from. Westminster has exploited just about every country on the planet and when they see that they’re going to get kicked out they divide the country and leave the population at each others throats, such as in India and Palestine.
The Libdems led by Rennie come across as a bunch of troublemaking dullards that, as ONE example, stymied the opportunity to do away with the Corroboration Law / protect Scottish children from paedophiles. The Greens? I don’t know where they’re going with this but should keep in mind they they can fall more quickly than they rise …. like a sponge cake
However it’s SLab that I can’t get away with. Every time that they’ve been decimated recently I’ve heard SLab MSPs, such as deadbeat James Kelly, state that one of the things that they’ll have to do in future is get into their communities and speak to the people. I’ve been really dumbfounded by this, thinking why not before now, and have an image in my head of them all sitting behind closed doors, too disinterested, lazy or feart to go out, stabbing each other in the back or quietly filling in their expense claims forms. They don’t even have to go out and speak to people just sit on their ar*es as usual and take a look at the polls. 80% of people agree with the SNP …. DON’T agree with them.
Wasn’t this one of the issues that brought about Murphy’s downfall? And then there’s Kezia Dugdale advocating reintroducing alcohol at the games. Kezia that bleats on constantly about caring for children, concerned about their education and angered about the life chances of children in care. She says she wants to tackle poverty, injustice and child / domestic abuse but against the advice of experts who have pointed out that alcohol plays a large part in such abuse (and children being taken into care) she is quite happy to turn a blind eye to the misery being created by the drunken father / husband taking his fitbae teams loss out on his wife and children. Women sitting at home keeping their fingers crossed that his team wins. If not hell on earth for them all that night / weekend.
Maybe the SNP not having a majority is the best thing that could have happened. We’ll now see what the Greens plan to do. We’ll also see how often kamikaze SLab continue to ‘pal it’ with the Tories to the detriment of the Scots / Scotland. If they do they’re over and out and we may find that some of the 500,000 people who voted for them last week will finally see the light and join us.
What the opposition parties intend doing has nothing to do with societal need and everything to do with attacking the party of government.
Decades in power, they did nothing. Now though? Now apparently they’ve developed an opinion. Damaging a party they all equally detest or see as a threat is purely coincedental I’m sure.
Taranaich very well said, on Arran even until the fifties Catholic Families were not welcome, at that time most jobs and houses were in the gift of the Laird. Even today there is a very strong bluenose following on the Island , however I’m glad to say that many are for Indy.
My Catholic Paternal Grandmother married a Protestant, two girls were brought up Catholic whilst the two boys were brought up Protestant . how daft is that? I have taken the sensible path of
Rejecting the superstitions of Iron Age goat Herders and religion, well apart from Pastarafarianism !
Bob Mack says:
16 May, 2016 at 1:22 pm
What songs are offensive? Come on guys.You know the score on that one. I know the words to many of them and I have not gone to football for many years.
As I said earlier Bob we all know what is offensive, however which of the many offensive songs are deemed “illegal?”
I truly would like to know
There were only two seats in Glasgow where the SNP got less than 50% of the vote, Rutherglen and Kelvin. the old firm grounds are in neither. Not sure if local councils can pass by laws banning some songs in certain conditions or not. Wouldn’t trust the current lot in Glasgow to do so.
As to the domestic violence increases. There’s nothing in those reports that show the increase is unique to old firm games. For instance derby games in other cities might also show increases. Nor is there anything said about whether the result has any bearing on where those incidents are liable to take place.
@Doug Daniel says: 16 May, 2016 at 10:44 am:
“Nah, the Greens backed trams because they run on leccy rather than diesel.”
Nah! Even if that were indeed the case, Doug, it only serves to highlight the total lack of proper scientific knowledge behind The Greens more quirky and idiotic policies.
As long as the main bulk of the UK’s electricity is generated from Nuclear, (the most dirty, dangerous fuel in existence), Diesel, Gas and Coal then electricity is not, in any way, a greener option for transport of any kind.
All those electrically powered trams achieve, (at the present time), is to move the bad effects of electricity generation from tram served city centres to the local sites where the power is generated, mined and processed.
Now, in my book, that is Nimbyism of the most cynical and ignorant kind.
It also helps to increase the total load of toxic waste matter away taken away from cities into other. more green, places. They do not dispose of nuclear waste, ash and CO2 in the city Centres but do so in more remote beauty spots.
Try telling the Greens that though and you will be attacked just as vigorously as they now seem about to line-up yet again with the Unionist hate-mongers.
Sorry – should have added the link. The above quote about Barcelona is from their Wikipedia entry.
link to en.wikipedia.org
There is also a list of fan owned clubs worldwide. The only Scottish team on it is Hearts.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Peter McCulloch asks what good having fan owned clubs will do. I don’t know. Perhaps the Greens did some research before they made it their policy.
my beloved Dundee United craftily managed to escape next seasons fixtures with them.
fiendishly clever they arabs, so they are… 🙂
nicola should just have a quiet word with uefa, get them to monitor, with iphones, the crowds at these grounds. video images of people singing offensive songs should incur immediate fines and repeat offences banning from european competition. she could ask the sfa but they are too scared of the old firm.
As you all know I am committed to bringing clarity, substance, and impartiality to all discussions. Here is my analysis.
The OBFA legislation is essentially sound but it has been implemented in such a way as to make it look like the sectarian problem is a problem of two equal sides who are equally guilty. The media plays a part in this too and uses this device with with other issues like Israel-Palestine.
The truth is that one side is largely to blame and is much more sectarian than the other. That’s my personal experience of the problem. I think the Police in an effort to make it look like a problem shared equally on both sides of the divide have been targeting Celtic fans more than Rangers fans.
I dont support football or any team. The game bores me to tears. I am not of catholic or protestant faith and have absolutely no interest or anything to gain here whatsoever.
I understand that it is probably easier to deal with the problem if we blame both sides in equal measure but the truth on the ground suggests that isn’t very fair.
This reminds me of a seemingly weird anomaly from the book Freakonomics — putting more cops on the beat results in an increase in crime. In other words, cops cause crime. Sounds weird but it’s true because the increased number of cops detect more crime. That seems to be what is happening with this OBFA in respect of Celtic fans.
@ Robert Peffers
O/T Electricityy no longer produced by coal fired power stations in Scotland as of closure of Longannet in March this year.
link to bbc.co.uk
Dean MacKinnon-Thomson says: 12:38
“If anything is ‘unholy’, surely it’s retaining a law under these circumstances?”
unenforceable you say? but if you read the article it has a conviction rate of 82%, contrast that statistic with that of around 90% of those reporting rape will never see their case reach court?
I think your argument needs reviewing.
James Kelly ?@JamesKelly 6m6 minutes ago
If there’s an EU poll today, that’ll be the first for a whole week. Unbelievable at this late stage. #EUref
Comfirmation of our discussion yesterday about eu ref polls
What is illegal?
Let’s say you write a song about hatred of gay people or those with disability.That would be illegal.
Anti catholic songs describing them as foreigners ,unwashed, someone you would kill ( up to our knees in fenian blood,surrender or you’ll die). The famine song.That’s a goody about how anybody not Scots protestant should “go home”.
On the other side, the same. You see my friend religious intolerance is just as much an offence for inter Scots relationships ,as it would be to stand outside an Indian restaurant berating them and singing insulting songs at themfor being Muslims. It is about catholic/ protestant intolerance of each other. Thankfully not the majority.
My, my, this OBFA is an emotive issue.
One or two posters have mentioned a list of “banned” songs; difficult to put together. Some songs, sung at folk clubs or at pubs, are entirely inoffensive, but are very much so sung at football.
For instance, The Sash is,on reading the lyrcs, an Ulster Loyalist song, with no inoffensive lyrics – but when 80% of a full-house Ibrox crowd is belting it out, to many people, it is offensive.
Back in the early 1960s, BBC Scotland did a folk music programme from Edinburgh. The show always ended with all the artistes joining-in with one song. One evening, they ended the show, which went out live, with a massed rendition of The Sash. Nothing wrong with that, The Corries (then ‘The Corrie Folk Trio’ with Paddy Bell) led off, everyone joined in. I was watching at my cousin’s tenement home in Springburn, when he recognised the song, my uncle immediately turned-up the sound to full volume and opened the front door – to let the Catholic family across the landing, with whom he generally got on well, have the full effect.
It is such gross stupidity which the OBFA attempts to curb.
On the other side, “The Fields of Athenry” is a very-familiar Irish song. It has become something of an anthem for the Irish national side, and the four provincial professional rugby sides – it even features at Liverpool games. Great song, but, at Old Firm games, when sung by the Celtic choir, it doesn’t half wind-up the opposition.
I still maintain, if the football authorities really cracked down on the clubs – told them, this is offensive, you are responsible for your fans’ behaviour and if you do not stop them behaving this way – you will lose points, then the offensive behaviour would stop and we would not need this act.
But, I am not holding my breath for this to happen.
And don’t forget, Artur Boric “the Holy Goalie”, got into a wee bit of bother: “for crossing himself in an aggressive manner”, as he wound-up Ra Peepul.
Just goes to show. “Rugby is a thug’s game played by chaps for the entertainment of gentlemen, and football is the beautiful game played by the lads for the entertainment of …”
More seriously, I have been to one big rugby match in the last few years, at Murrayfield. Absolutely no problems being in the ‘wrong’ support area.
As you point out, Rev, the law is supported by what I would call real football fans. This petty attempt to oppose the SG rather reeks of Bitter Together vindictiveness, and to top it off James Kelly, Mogadon Man himself, recently evicted by the people of Ru’glen, starts thumping the table and shouting the odds.
Supporting the retrograde and divisive elements in the Tory and Labour parties is not a good look, surely, for Patrick Harvie.
Do they really think saying, “Look, we all got humped at the election but we’re all going to vote agin the SG just ‘cos we can” is going to impress people in Scotland?
Next up: The Incredibly Sinister Memorandum of Understanding!
Eek! 😯
And well said, Taranaich and ArtyHetty.
AhuraMazda says: 2:03 pm
“As you all know I am committed to bringing clarity, substance, and impartiality to all discussions. Here is my analysis.”
the cops are bigoted, and if there were no cops there would be no crime,
You go on holiday and when you get back you find the lunatics have multiplied!well here is my tuppence worth, if the bigots are squealing then the law is working, sectarianism is a cancer, labour lived my that cancer, as did the Tory’s before them, but Scotland is on the move, we don’t want this cancer eating our young any-more, and Sturgeon is the surgeon to do the job.
‘As you all know..’ Sorry lost me about there.
That the first order of business for these 65 msps should be scrapping THIS piece of legislation shows you where their priorities lie.
I think it will turn into one of they boomerangs. We have, what, 20 old firm games coming up over the next 5 years and whatever trouble occurs in Ibrox and Parkhead and on the streets of Glasgow- Nicola will be able to look across the chamber and ask the 65 if they were happy to have given the SNP a bloody nose.
I will be emailing all of my opposition regional list MSPs who are there to represent me and not their leadership to ask them to vote against repelling this piece of legislation.
It only takes a couple of MSPs voting with the SNP to avoid this. I will remind them that if there is a rise in sectarian violence as a result of their actions they will be responsible.
I would urge everyone to do likewise- by all means suggest ways in which the laws can be improved and if their are positive suggestions I’m sure the SNP would be delighted to work with them to improve it.
Don’t forget David Cameron referred to both the famine song and Billy Boys as ‘just a song’.
Someone will die early next season; merely for wearing a replica football strip, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
In advance , I lay the blame squarely at the feet of WATP Adam Tomkins,and The Queen’s Eleven Murdo Fraser,and Ruth Davidson, for resurrecting Teddy Taylor’s ‘and Unionist’ tag.
You may recall that bringing back hanging and the birch were two of Teddy’s USP’s.
He freely admitted that the Tories in Scotland courted the sectarian loyalist vote.
He didn’t give a fuck.
Someone will die. I find these warped little games played out by notably the Tories, but also the Kellys Murphys and Dugdales of the Unionist sewer pit, to be subversive, rabble rousing and downright dangerous.
How deep in the shit will these people sink, just for a shot at the gravy train?
Patrick Harvie: get a fucking grip!
Electric vehicles in general separate the energy extraction apparatus from the bit doing the transporting. Depending on line losses being able to use transmission lines makes it even better than on board batteries.
Not having to carry the generator, regardless of fuel, means its weight is no longer a concern so features that might make it more efficient or capture harmful emissions can be implemented that would be skimped on if it was mobile.
Not forgetting that there can be more than one source for the electricity which can either be renewable, fossil or nuclear. It’s a bit of a two edged sword.
What might be considered stupid though was going for tram rather than trolleysbus. The latter would have been a shit load faster to install and get running. Even if you wanted to do away with the driver modern control systems could cope.
I have no personal opinion on this act, nor any interest. Junior league is about my mark, and I haven’t had time for years to go to a match. To me Premier league is all about grossly overpaid prima donnas looking for an Oscar.
But I’ve been asked my opinion by sensible posters in the Herald as they think it’s bad, and do I think something should be done about it? My answer was similar to the first line of my posting.
What this tells me – theses are sensible posters – is that it’s a bad act and needs to be either greatly changed, or indeed, repealed.
The 65 will outvote the 63 to overturn the ‘insert the policy’ just because! That’s the gist of it as most have already pointed out.
In spite of this particular policy being popular in Scotland and the knowledge of the appalling statistics of a 43% increase in reported domestic abuse on most old firm games.
Risky strategy for the smaller parties…Oh! that’s them all them
I’m not in favour of this law being repealed, but I must admit I’m having a hard time working out how The Fields of Athenry could possibly be seen as sectarian.
BBC Scotland used to show endless Scottish football riots in close up, so they’ll probably by boosting Kelly’s thing.
From that BBC Scotland generation, here’s Eddie Mair, who kicked off his GERS £15bn black hole Scotland r4 PM interview with Swinney, ” John Swinney, you should be begging the thanks of no voters now?”
link to archive.is
REVEALED: BBC radio presenter earns £425k for hosting just FIVE hours a week
Tasty.
Britnats would love to see a rise in sectarianism in Scotland. Britnat hatred for Scotland knows no bounds.
It’s also essential not to set a precedent that lures the non-Tory parties into accepting abolishing rather than amending laws. Remember that even though, thankfully, human rights legislation is devolved it still remains stated policy by some at Westminster that the existing laws be entirely scrapped in order that a UK Bill or Rights be introduced.
The law in question is simply one more of the making it fucking clear to the public not to be a nob kind. It’s in the same vein as those against using a hand held mobile phone whilst driving settling the argument about whether that’s dangerous driving or not. The same might also be said about speeding although there’s still an onus on the driver to adjust for weather conditions.
In terms of the SGP’s “principles”, they will be horse-traded to within a hair’s breadth, and maybe beyond, as they try to figure out what is REALLY important to them, or rather, their leadership.
Staying visible, and having “influence” is all they will care about. Their green credentials will be in tatters within a few months if they head off down the pro-sectarian, pro-(multi-colour) tory route.
Yesindyref2,
“These are sensible posters” Judged by what criteria? I remember Donald Findlay Q.C ,getting caught out singing .
Sectarianism has tentacles in all parts of society. You would imagine the SNP who are trying to keep the legislation, came from another world. They have lived ,worked ,studied and grown up here.Theh know the scale and reach of the problem. They are trying to reduce this vile part of Scottish everyday life and commit it to where it belongs.The past.
Rev Stu.
you asked for evidence of more than 50….. you asked for pictures
link to heraldscotland.com
link to scotzine.com
The Buffalo Sha**** ( Rider) will have to get her own nasty, bigoted party into line first. That Murdo Fraser guy- what a fuckin stupid, ignorant twat !
macnakamura says:
16 May, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Rev Stu.
you asked for evidence of more than 50….. you asked for pictures
That was 2013, this is 2016 and the people of Scotland disagree with this “mass rally” of not 3000.
Yoon culture wants to drag Scotland into the gutter, like the good olde days but this is democracy. Oh wait, the Green blockers are coming.
link to youtube.com
Sectarianism is one of the major shames of Scotland, and now so is unionisum.
To try and remove a law that helps reduce sectarian behaviour without having something better to replace it with, is nothing more than immoral.
If the union parties and the greens get together to vote out this legislation just to have a pop at the Scottish government, then hell mend them.
The same tactic was used in the first minority SNP government with the Edinburgh tram fiasco and look how that turned out.
its a cheap shot by a bunch of cheap pricks.
@Joannie,
Fields of Athenry was not in itself offensive.It pointed out the cruelty of the British judicial system of the time,but others which were sung such as we’re off to Dublin in the Green had verses changed by the support to include” bayonets slashing Orange sashes etc. ”
Propoganda crowd style.
@Bob Mack
I get you, thanks for the explanation.
heedtracker says:
16 May, 2016 at 2:51 pm
macnakamura says:
16 May, 2016 at 2:43 pm
Rev Stu.
you asked for evidence of more than 50….. you asked for pictures
That was 2013, this is 2016 and the people of Scotland disagree with this “mass rally” of not 3000.
===========
Okay you are right,it was 3 years ago and opposition to legislation should only be once in a generation !
All legislation is meant to act as a deterrant. The purpose is not to get as many convictions as possible, but to discourage people from acting in unacceptable ways. If the convictions are relatively few, this is a sign that the deterrant is working.
Successful prosecutions are not lacking, but the fact that they are not as numerous as might have been expected means, precisely, that the SNP’s Offensive Behaviour Act is having the desired effect.
Let’s face it, most people have no idea what exactly the law says. All they really know about it is that they can now be prosecuted for singing sectarian songs at football matches. Therefore they don’t do it any more, even if they used to. And that is already a very good thing.
However badly worded it might be, this law is effective. And the vast majority of Scots like the effect it is having.
So what happens if members of the Scottish Combined Idiotic Parties (SCIP) get together to abolish it? What kind of message will that be for those people who had begun to desist from their erstwhile offensive behaviour?
Does it not simply tell them – these idotic beneficiaries of the SCIP abolition – to go and belt it out all the louder.
SCIP’s message to the bigoted minorities who are hell bent on poisoning the wells of Scottish football is this: ‘Go ahead, you Idiots, and be even more offensive than you ever were before! Disgrace us all!’
By abolition, the SCIP will not simply be ‘allowing’ but actively ‘encouraging’ the singing of offensive sectarian songs at football matches. They will thus deal a blow to the whole anti-sectarian movement, of which the SNP’s legislation was only a part.
However much the Combined Idiots of SCIP may whine about leaving the problem to be addressed by voluntary initiatives – just listen to the manifest nonsense of the Greens’ manifesto on the matter – there is no way of getting back to the situation that existed before the Act was introduced.
Either Scotland goes forward by strengthening and improving the legislation, or else it sinks backwards into the age-old mire, now stickier and more slimy than ever, where sectarianism masqueraded as conviction, and was accepted as normal, engrained and ineradicable.
Abolition will act like a bellows, fanning the flame of what should have been the dying embers of sectarianism, and bringing it all to life again. If Holyrood approves it – for that is what abolition means – who can prevent it? Who dare oppose it?
After abolition, the problem will be worse than ever.
The SNP’s law put out the message, ‘you had better not do that!’, and most people conformed. Now the Holyrood SCIP want to send out the opposite message. And, however much they camouflage it, their combined idiotic reflections infesting football grounds and destroying the enjoyment of real fans, will ‘hear’ it the very way it was intended: ‘Just do it! Do it even more than you ever did before! Just sing these offensive songs! And sing them more lustily than you ever have! We permit you; we applaud you; we approve you … ‘
How the Idiotic minorities in our football grounds will revel in it, spoiling the game for everyone else.
And how the rest of Scotland will be reviled by it!
At least everyone will now be aware of the sub-theme that ran through the recent Holyrood election campaign, like an undercover secret agent, without ever daring to speak its name … The Conservative and Unionist Party in Scotland Approves Sectarianism.
And so do all those who combine with it.
But most of us don’t. Most Scots will see through it, and won’t follow the evident sham, and lie, that it is.
All the SNP has to do is to invite the other Parties to join with them in finding ways to improve the legislation, and make it work even better … And if, ignoring that appeal, the SCIP just cry ‘abolition’, the great majority of the Scottish public will know who they are and, at the next opportunity, what to do with them.
Okay you are right,it was 3 years ago and opposition to legislation should only be once in a generation !
Not at all. Whether or not this law is any good, and it may not be etc But whether or not its any good, unionistas like Kelly, Ruth and Harvie repealing, it will just be another big weird stick to beat the SNP and the whole YES movement ofcourse.
If Kelly’s repeal does get the backing of the Greens, you’ll be all be able to sing about killing each other with out worrying about getting nicked for it. And the Green blockers will have done their jobs for the whole UKOK creep show in Scotland.
Just dont kid yourself yoon culture and the Greens in particular, give a hoot about Scottish football.
Is it too much to hope for a Scotland were people treat each other with respect, even if, horror of horrors, they support a different football team? Is it right to be “FANatical” about anything? Is the tribalism that surrounds football good for the game? Why would anyone want to sing a song that causes offence? Why would anyone take offence just because someone sang a song? Will we ever get to a point where supporters (not fans) of both sides at a football game go home happy at having been entertained, content in the knowledge that the better team won?
We should keep the legislation and improve on it where there is a case for doing so. We should keep it because it is attempting to contain a sinister and shameful problem in our society. It is woefully inadequate, but it is better than nothing.
Politicians who seek to abolish the legislation just to give the SNP a bloody nose and because they can are contemptible. In whose interests will it really be if they succeed? Certainly not the Scottish people’s interests. Their view is clear.
Those opposing the OBA can’t explain why their parties haven’t made any serious attempts to tackle sectarianism in Scotland over the last 100years.
Here’s what I fear could be the unionist’s playbook on this subject. Repeal the OBFA, but don’t propose anything in it’s place (or at least, don’t propose anything other than vague “we should do it some other way” quotes). Optionally, follow Dugdale’s lead and get alcohol more widely available at the matches too … Wait for the inevitable public order issues, then claim “The SNP are obsessed with independence when they should be focussing on the problems that Scotland faces today!”.
You wouldn’t necessarily need any agent provocateurs, as alcohol plus the lunatic fringe which exists in football fandom would surely be quite capable of kicking things off all by themselves. If they (the unionist parties) really wanted to play with fire, they could then attempt to be as obstructive as possible (whilst claiming “We’re only holding the SNP to account”!) so as to delay/water-down any attempts to deal with the resulting mess.
I want to think I’m being excessively cynical here, but I fear I might not be?
Sorry everybody, but Ahura has spoken on the issue.
It is deemed that Rangers fans are much more guilty of sectarianism than anyone else in Scotland, including Celtic fans, and accordingly OBFA is being used to distort realities. The bill in itself is probably sound but is being implemented badly and unjustly.
Frankly, football is tedious for me so I shall leave you all to fizzle out on the subject.
All the SNP need to do is promise the Greens a free-speech-preserving amendment to the bill (such as moving more liability onto the clubs), and all the Greens have to do is abstain and let the Unionist parties embarrass themselves.
The same deal could be offered to the Lib Dems, but they don’t really stand for anything and anyway you can’t take them at their word these days.
To be honest, I’d be in favour of MUCH stronger free speech protection (including comprehensive whistle-blower laws that would no doubt discomfit the British State somewhat) and slip them in as part of the deal. Win win.
The Green Grassy Slopes will prove too much for Patrick Harvie, he apparently doesn’t like Alex Salmond, no doubt Salmond had his card marked & knows a phony when he sees one.
@ Taranaich, post of the day kid!
I assume these parties will repeal any other legislation that restricts freedom of expression such as hatred against LGBT or racism.
Until the minority that cant behave themselves get sorted out No Booze and No singing pish songs about centuries old troubles and that should be the end of it.Instead of enabling it these folk really need to give themselves a shake, I live in Glasgow and it certainly is a minority who can’t behave and they shouldn’t be allowed to ruin it for the majority.
Fraser: “it’s only football fans who’s lives are being ruined for no reason, who cares about them.”
“lives ruined” – give me strength pal…. Try comparing this with any refugee from the Middle East today for starters!
@Bob Mack
“sensible posters” based on my posting and reading comments from them for up to 4 years. Donald Findlay doesn’t post on the Herald AFAIA.
In a way this debate shows how much Scotland has moved on and how much the Yoons haven’t.
It will surely only accelerate their demise.
Anent Ruined Lives! there was a young man passing Brigton X & wearing the wrong scarf, whose throat was cut from ear to ear, how’s that for ruined eh!
@Fred, Dat True…
‘The Green Grassy Slopes will prove too much for Patrick Harvie, he apparently doesn’t like Alex Salmond, no doubt Salmond had his card marked & knows a phony when he sees one.’
@ Taranaich,
‘I’m sick to death of this “controversy” for something that has overwhelming backing from the people.’
For all the reasons you state regarding upbringing with this ‘backdrop’, me too. Well said.
Let’s put Davidson, Dugdale, Harvie and Rennie in amongst the bigot brothers at each game, at the segregation sections, and let’s see if they still think it is a good idea. I somehow doubt they would be seen with the riff raff. They just want to pull the pin out of the grenade, throw it into the room and runaway shouting “it was Nicola what did it”
The thing about greens is they lose all their goodness and go mushy, if cocked or too.
Never took ma coat off, it’s not June yet. 😉
cooked too long.
Mmmm….can’t even get the delivery of a one-liner correct. Sorry.
The act was not just about sectarianism only those with a guilty conscience think that.
It was to stop football violence and to help the police make a list of known thugs out to cause trouble,which all clubs in Scotland have including my own Falkirk.
I dont see any English clubs or politicians saying lets go back to the good old days of running battles across our towns and cities where people end up in hospital because of the team they support.
Scotland was never as bad as this but that does not mean we do not have the same problem or that we should not tackle it.
Personally i would like to see the act go further and use the threat the English used get your shit in order or play behind closed doors ,this threat made the good fans out the bad ones and the clubs police their own fans.
Did it work well take a look at English football fans now dads and mums with the kids out for a day of fun,big change from 15 foot fences and the police chasing thugs all over the towns and cities trying to stop them fighting each other.
As for the yoons ganging up let them they are digging their own graves if they think pandering to these eejits is going to make them popular with the rest of Scotland.
Ban orange walks and segregated schools 3 pts off every time a song is sung.End of bigotry as we know it.
@Paula Rose says: 16 May, 2016 at 10:59 am:
“Right folks let’s get busy on this one – what proposals do people have to amend this act and improve it? Seems to me we need something but the present version is not the best it could be.”
Simples, Paula Rose, Just apply the same laws to all such singing and chanting of any sectarian, sexist or racist based matter, by anyone anywhere, anytime.
With the very same provisos as the original act. That is it is in addition to the far too lax existing UK anti-discrimination laws.
@K1, the Brigton case was by somebody called Campbell who hopefully is still inside & another murder out in Lanarkshire where some lowlife knifed another young guy who just happened to be passing. Two tragic deaths is far too many, doubtless there are others.
Football is a minority interest, even in Glasgow.
This does mean as well that if we see certain people in the street we can march straight up and be totally offensive via a deemed football related chanting song and scream it into the face of such people and that be found to be freedom of expression
There are people who will do that in exactly those terms if they should happen across any little power mad Dick-tator who expresses himself in terms of “The people of Scotland have to accept”
(HIS WORDS)
Those same words were used on the Sunday politics to Gordon Brewer in reference to the Scottish Government
Warned Warned and Warned again by this site and others and now the excuses and the reasons and Aye buts and the don’t make enemies brigade, which is a threat of withdrawal of support in the future if they’re not treated nicely for doing exactly what they’re doing now which is screwing the people who’s coat tails they hung on to in order to get them where they are… But we’d better not offend anybody eh ………(Negotiate Negotiate)
Disingenuous is far too polite a word for them
It could be that one of the main purposes of the Act was to foster awareness of sectarian behaviour. If I have this right it expires next year anyway, unless renewed. Perhaps that purpose of the Act has already been achieved, and it’s largely irrelevant if it gets repealed or not.
But for a political party to set out to repeal it, rather than amend it, is insanity. There’s no political capital for them to make out of it, and no useful purpose.
Where there would be sense if they pushed for amendments or a new replacement Act, one more suited for purpose. And on their hand the SNP should react to public pressure in a positive way – offer as part of their programme for the first session of Holyrood 2016, to set up a committee to examine it.
The SNP should do the same for the named person act, with a view to making small amendments. It’s called “drawing teeth”, and coincidentally shows an intent to go for democratic concensus politics, which will really put the other parties back in their box.
Incidentally I heard in the background an interesting comment on the BBC1 program after midnight, to the effect that Cameron is at a disadvantage because he doesn’t have the LibDems to moderate his policies, nor does he have their support.
It’s an interesting idea, bearing in mind the minority SNP Government about to start.
Nice try Ahura. Chucks grenade in then scarpers to watch the fireworks. Not going to happen, mate. Must think we’re a’ zipped up the back here.
LOL
‘The National’ has the Offensive Behaviour in Football Act 2012 on the front page and an article on page 2.
The SG is going to push on with their policy and see how it goes.
In other news:
Torrance and (Big brain) Douglas Alexander all Yooning in the papers.
Finally:
Challenging times…will this (not Scotland’s) oil and gas ever run out. 🙁
link to archive.is
I once worked with the Lynsey Bews who wrote that “story”. A spoiled, rich, little bratty airhead from Edinburgh. Such a surprise she turned out to be a rabid Unionist…
@heedtracker says: 16 May, 2016 at 11:31 am:
” … Me.”
I’ll second that, heedtracker. It is not conducive to good public order to have sects battling it out on our streets.
However, I’d go much further and make any form of discrimination, by anyone, anywhere subject to the same laws. No need to categorise the form of discrimination. I’m 80 next birthday and I’ve seen all forms of really, really brainless discrimination.
Everything from discrimination against ginger hair to just a dislike of someone’s accent.
All the fitba clubs in Scotland should develop an ‘exchange’ programme, whereby each team’s fixture is altered in such a way that the ‘old old firm’ and all other matches’ are played in different parks throughout the fitba season.
So all the fans can turn up to the various places within Scotland to see their teams play in completely different ‘environments’.
Let’s see…now how would ‘that’ go down in Edinburgh, ye know…the Tory/Labour heartlands…d’ye think their ‘core’ vote would like a wee taste of that ‘medicine’ and do you think the Unionist parties ‘swelling’ numbers would ‘swell’ no more?
Can’t help but feel this is a deliberate ploy to ‘divide’ the big Yes city. In fact I’m certain it is.
yesindyref2 @ 3.52.
Re: amending the named persons act.
It is not an Act but just on of the issues covered in the Children and Young Persons Act which all the parties voted for apart from the Tories.
The section of the act relating to named persons has already been subject to judicial review which upheld that section and the appeal against that decision was lost. The groups bringing these actions have now taken the matter to the UK Supreme Court who have still to announce their verdict.
Labour’s U-turn on their support for this during the election was a blatant piece of political opportunism.
I do not see any reason why the legislation should be amended under these circumstances and many reasons why it should not be amended.
If the SG were to give way on this when it has been fully evaluated then they can pretty well kiss goodbye to their legislative programme for the next 5 years. The other parties will have drawn blood and will go for more.
@schrodingers cat says: 16 May, 2016 at 11:47 am:
“simple in 2017 take control of gcc then ban orange walks.
Not really too good an idea, Cat.
All that will do is give the other lot a free run and reinforce the OO present claims of victimisation.
There is an equivalent faction in the other sectarian lot who are every bit as bad. Not only that but there have been other team supporters in the recent past attempting to emulate the two main bigoted lots.
I’ve heard it at Edinburgh derby games for example.
I’m always amused by those who ask for examples of offensive songs. They usually already know what these are because they have been part of the childhood memories of most Scots. In fact the words hardly matter because the INTENT of the song is to OFFEND.
A squaddie in the Army can say “Yes Sir” and by tone of voice and by leaving just a little space between those two words manage to show total contempt. It is for that reason you cannot provide lists. Almost the day after the ban came in I listened to a very loud rendition of “…the shoe my father wore”
We are all Scots and we need to reject these attempts at division. If people need a banner or colour to unite under try the Saltire and blue/white and if you want to sing try Flower of Scotland. It is not a freedom of speech issue because two rights clash – the right to offend does not trump the right of another not to be subjected to the assault. ( the classic case of you not having the right to shout fire in a theatre.
If you want to build a fairer society then I cannot think of a better place to start than declaring bigotry unacceptable.
“you asked for evidence of more than 50….. you asked for pictures”
There’s certainly a few hundred there, looks nowhere near 3000 to me. But let’s be super-generous and assume it is – that’s 3% of the average weekly crowds of Celtic and “Rangers” alone. And it’s not like it was a long journey, and it was a matchday so they were already out.
Please – contacted my Green chums, they better not vote with the Unionists on this, its suicide – we all would never vote for them again.
There aren’t all that many Orange parades in Scotland anyway, are there? There’s about 4000 in NI, and one lone parade in the Republic. How many are there in Scotland?
So the Tories big ideas for Scotland seem to be
1. oppose a democratic vote
2. make child abuse easier
3. boost sectarianism
Its not a good look.
ok mr peffers
ban walks from both sides, or at least make them pay the policing costs
most other towns and cities got rid of orange walks in the 60-70s, the sectarianism fizzled out shortly afterwards
as for upsetting celtic and rangers fans… it is pointed out by many that they are actually a very small minority even in glasgow.
i think we, and the sfa, have peddled to them for long enough.
the sectarian chanting is filmed and posted onto you tube every week. a high powered zoom lens should be employed then the offenders posted onto social media. name and shame time. we dont even need to pass new laws to do this.
Employers would feel pressurised to sack people outed in this manner. sexist and racist remarks are no longer tolerated in this society, neither should sectarianism
The classic Yoon agenda, oppose anything that leans towards
a civil society, so lets have Saturday afternoons showing the world arseholes in action.
We can’t have the sweatys looking like they have evolved into a forward, peaceful thinking nation, no lets go back to the good old days of being embarrassed to be Scottish when the knuckle draggers on all sides use 90mins of Shite on a Saturday to vent their spleen much to the amusement of their masters. Looks like pints of “beat the wife up” might be on sale again, after all bad news sells newspapers.
Me cynical???
I remember outside some miner welfare clubs years ago looking like battle fields when the “late” old firm played,if this policy is blocked, then every person hurt whether it be physicaly or mentally, should sue the dickheads who voted against the SNP.
“Lets see the Yoon parties squirm at that idea”.
You never know, this new team called Sevco, Serco, Sebco, Serpico Rangers or whatever, might have sensible fans who will support the bill!?!?
O/T
If “The Donald” wins the election, who would have thought the film Team America would be like watching America under his leadership. (Time to bring back Spitting Image)
“F*CK YEH”
This act was rushed in to cover a multitude of agendas which were decided offensive, according to the SNP. The OBAF act being a part. Offence has a broad interpretation and regardless, it should never be a criminal act on its own. Threatening behaviour and inciting violence, now that is a trigger for a criminal act but not just being offensive without intent. Intent is the key.
Standing on a terrace chanting whatever, should never be a criminal act. Offence should never be a criminal act. If we go down this road, we have lost. Our freedom of expression has been taken away. Look at the Muslims in England, demonstrating each summer, to kill the infidels, burn the police and telling our Queen to go to hell. Now I find that offensive but they have the right to chant what they like. This is the free West and we are a democracy. No one should ever be made a criminal through offensive speech. If we go down that route, we are screwed. This is what happens in regimes like Saudi or Pakistan or Russia etc etc. We are not a regime.
Now just victimising football fans, especially the old firm, is unbelievable. I bet most commenters here on Wings, never go to any football matches, yet are experts on the OF chants. Because it has no effect on your lives, and because you are supporting a political movement, you really couldn’t care less about other people, and find it acceptable to criminalise the common man, to promote your personal political agenda. I suspect these acts are more in way of protecting the immigrant yet to be forced upon us in huge number. Football is the SNP’s excuse to implement laws to prevent us from speaking out in opposition in the future.
The way to tackle sectarianism, is in the primary schools. The single religion school is ridiculous. The forced teaching of other religions on our children, under the guise of education. Religion should be a very very optional extra. It is the root cause of all our modern day problems and it needs to be reigned in. Do that, and we will be on the correct path.
“Look at the Muslims in England, demonstrating each summer, to kill the infidels, burn the police and telling our Queen to go to hell. Now I find that offensive but they have the right to chant what they like.”
No, they don’t. They have the right to chant what they like UP TO THE POINT WHERE IT INCITES VIOLENCE OR CRIME, at which point they’re liable to get nicked like anyone else. It’s not illegal to sing “The Billy Boys”. It’s illegal to sing it IN A CONTEXT WHERE IT COULD PROVOKE PUBLIC DISORDER. Try to get your head round that, it’s fairly important.
the applicability of the legislation is irrelevant. It is a statement of intent.
“All that will do is reinforce the OO present claims of victimisation.”
good
“All that will do is give the other lot a free run”
i would include in the ban any march that praises terrorists and promotes sectarianism. That includes the withdrawal of state funding for catholic schools.
@Legerwood
It’s not major changes needed, in fact it’s little more than cosmetic, but Government’s are not appointed or voted for to sit and say yah boo sucks to opposition parties, they are there to legislate for the people – and respond where neccessary.
What happened is that all of those taking part in the Committees and debates thought about the primary purpose of the Act which I don’t think any single person actually disagrees with, but didn’t cater for what could be called justifiable concern that it would interfere with rights of totally non-offensive parents.
All that’s need is very very minor changes to address that. Judicial reviews have nothing to do with genuine concerns, only the Law. It’s for Governments to address concerns. And much legislation is subject to minor changes in later years, to close loopholes or remove categories to which the legislation should not have applied.
In fact if the SNP respond to public concerns and open this to such minor changes, it makes them look good, not bad, and wrong-foots the opposition parties. They have support from the Greens anyway, and I doubt Labour will really cause any problems.
Dugs and Flying Scotsman day on radio shortbread I’ve had it on in the background most of the day as I get my books together.
I like dugs and the Flying Scotsman but that’s the fourth time and it’s not six ‘o’ clock yet.
PS:
Mundell taking his opportunity and jumping on the caboose as it passes but the SG will be up front driving the train. 🙂
Working together eh!
link to archive.is
“That includes the withdrawal of state funding for catholic schools.”
Which would be a state-sponsored sectarian action.
Tbh, religion can go f*ck itself. Giving legal power to religious nuts on either side is a step backwards. The argument that it could start a riot is daft, does that mean these games arent properly segregated or policed? You could stick your tongue out at one another and could cause unrest. We are basically comparing singing at football matches to saying bomb in an airport, difference between them is one could start panic and crushing and the other a roll of the eyes and a frown. Not against the legislation, im against religion.
Funny rev how you want the hatred at football to be a thing of the past but cant get over your hatred of Rangers, contradicting your stance.
“The argument that it could start a riot is daft, does that mean these games arent properly segregated or policed?”
If 60,000 people decide to have a riot, you’re only stopping them if you’ve got 61,000 police. Or 10,000 police with guns. Is that what you want at football matches?
@call me dave
Strange coincidence with Mundell about the Carlisle extension, considering we were talking about the Borders the last 1 or 2 days.
We’re being watched!
I cannot tell you the exact year, but, it was before 1975. I was at the Ayr Gaiety to see their summer show: ‘The Gaiety Whirl’ starring Johnny Beattie.
He told a contrived and unfunny story, the punch line to which was: “But, you always get trouble with the sash Mia Farrow wore”.
More than 40 years have passed – and we are still having bother with “the sash Mia Farrow wore”.
At least, OBFA is an attempt to end that trouble.
I was just reading the links that Macnakamura posted regarding Celtic fans protesting against the OBFA. I don’t really get it. Surely if you abide by the Law the legislation wont impact on you at all.
link to legislation.gov.uk
@ Joannie says at 4:53 pm …. ”There aren’t all that many Orange parades in Scotland anyway, are there? There’s about 4000 in NI, and one lone parade in the Republic. How many are there in Scotland?”
Joannie there’s loads of data re. the OO on the Scotgov site. Just search for Orange Order parades, costs or whatever. This is one that might prove to be helpful.
link to gov.scot
Douglas Fraser on the BP initiative on the gas field.
I said it was not Scotland gas or oil.
“The pipe line will come ashore on the British mainland”.
“It will supply 6% of the UK needs”
“A big day for the UK Oil & gas sector” etc etc.
PS:
@yesindiref2
Mundell: Aye right!
—————————————————-
Laughing on the bus,
Playing games with the faces,
She said the man in the gabardine suit
Was a spy.
I said, “Be careful,
His bow tie is really a camera.”
“Toss me a cigarette,
I think there’s one in my raincoat.”
We smoked the last one
An hour ago. 🙂
———————————————————-
Be wary of the sectarian unionists. Loss of Glasgow Council is their next big worry – so where better to be seen to be against the Offensive Behaviour at football act than there. Historically “divide and rule” worked for the British Empire in many colonies leading, unfortunately, to massive loss of life. They are now so scared of losing Scotland they will stoop to anything!
Just heard Chris Grayling giving evidence to NI Committee that with the tax varying powers being devolved there are consequences such as if Scotland decided to lower taxes the Barnet formula would not go up to compensate for any loss of income
And here’s the good bit
He said if Scotland were to raise taxes then the Barnet formula would be lowered accordingly
All a bit horses mouth there saying there are no tax raising powers coming to Scotland there are only bits of paper that say there are
So if we use them to raise any money all we’re doing is taxing people for no reason other than making people worse off
Mr Grayling also admitted EVEL was specifically designed to stop the SNP in coalition with a possible future Labour government running England because the good people of England apparently wouldn’t stand for that
Nice to know we’re leading in the UK instead of leaving eh
@Petra
Thanks for the link.
Unclear to me why the greens support the reversal of this law?
As for the unionists, expect the blue of the tories and the red of labour to morph into a royal and loyal purple opposition with the anticipation of an ermine robe at some juncture for selling Scots down the river.
No doubt a bit of purring too!
You want to email me why you wont post my comment or is it only you who can querie, question and goad???????
@call me dave
It’s a clever move from Mundell. A proposed extension does take it into England and via Longtown to Carlisle. Which tightens the bond in the Borders. His “co-operation” gives that more weight, and puts pressure on the Scottish Government.
Personally I’d prefer to see a connection north of the border via Langholm, just north of Gretna with a new through route to Dumfries to tighten the bond east to west of the Borders with D&G – within Scotland. Then where it joins north of the border, trains can go south on the main line to Carlisle, or west to Annan / Dumfries. I don’t know of any proposed route that does that though, and I have a feeling it would be more expensive, probably a lot more.
Henichen
Is it your first post here? If so, all new posters go into moderation for the 1st comment. It has to be accepted manually. Once that’s done any other posts you create will be posted automatically.
“That includes the withdrawal of state funding for catholic schools.”
Which would be a state-sponsored sectarian action.
it is sectarian to fund catholic schools but not jewish or muslim schools. All or nothing
state funding of any religious organisation is undemocratic since most people, nowadays, are not religious.
Promotion of religious groups, fuels sectarianism. the state should have nothing to do with religion. end of.
the state should fund schools, Sure, but if you want your children to be educated about some sky fairy, take them to a church, just dont expect tax payers to fund this.
I didn’t mean through route, I meant loop from the main Glasgow line to join the Dumfries to Carlisle line in the Dumfries direction.
Yes, Mundell did his usual waffle in Edinburgh about no mandate for Indy Ref, threw in stuff about Stubbs appearing before Holyrood on welfare, but I’d say the main thing was to throw this rail spanner at the SNP – and Indy. With the Blue belt at the south of Scotland, anything he can do to cement it, he will.
When these games are broadcast on TV or radio and these ‘songs’ are clearly heard we should lodge complaints with the broadcasters to try and get more pressure put on these clubs to get it stopped.
Quite clearly the SFA is not fit for purpose and is not worth interacting with but if these clubs qualify for European competition we should complain to UEFA who will do something about this disgrace.