The Labour case for Trident
This is prospective Labour leader Owen Smith on the Andrew Marr show this morning, explaining why he’ll be one of the 65% of Labour MPs voting in favour of the renewal of Trident next week:
Let’s just see if we can get this straight once and for all.
1. Labour wants to spend £200bn on a new Trident system so that it can then scrap it as soon as possible in multilateral disarmament talks, (incurring billions of pounds more in decommissioning costs), with a supposed long-term goal of completely eliminating all nuclear weapons on the planet.
2. That’s a bit like buying a Ferrari to replace your Ford Focus because you want to reduce carbon emissions by putting it in a car crusher. But weirdly, the last time a Labour government attempted to bring about some multilateral reductions, the idea of total disarmament was completely ruled out as “non-negotiable”.
3. Owen Smith tells us that we need Trident because the world has become a more dangerous place. (We’ll generously gloss over the finer details of exactly how he plans to use nukes to defeat ISIS.) This, presumably, is why successive Labour and Tory governments have reduced the capability of the existing Trident fleet by almost half, first from 200 warheads to 160 and then from 160 to 120.
4. Labour wants the UK to have the strongest possible nuclear arsenal in order to use it as a bargaining chip in disarmament talks at some unspecified future date. The UK’s 120 warheads represent approximately 0.7% of the world’s current stockpile, so Labour’s position must be that it can leverage those 0.7% in order to bring about the removal of the other 99.3%.
Labour, then, is telling us that for every one warhead the UK decommissions, it can persuade the rest of the world to give up 142. We commend their ambition, and can only imagine that Labour are AMAZING at poker.
(We’re not aware of any cuts by other powers as a quid pro quo for the UK’s recent reductions from 200 warheads to 120, incidentally.)
5. Labour MPs and MSPs in constituencies with nuclear weapons installations, such as Jackie Baillie in West Dunbartonshire and John Woodcock in Barrow, simultaneously insist that the reason the weapons must be retained is to protect astronomical numbers of supposed jobs reliant on them.
Yet at the same time we’re told that the ultimate objective is to get rid of the weapons. So the goal is to keep the jobs in order to work diligently towards losing them again, rather than using the money to create jobs which would be sustainable in the long term.
That’s a bit like investing all your savings in Betamax video recorders the day after the DVD player is invented.
6. Even if we accept the wildest estimates of such MPs regarding the number of jobs reliant on Trident – which range from around 500, according to the MoD, up to absurdly inflated claims of over 20,000 – the lifetime cost of the system is expected to be in excess of £200 billion. That’s £10m per job over the 40-year period, or £250,000 per job per year.
We suspect that if you offered every employee dependent on Trident £125,000 a year for life to sit at home and watch box sets of Game Of Thrones, they’d snap your hand off. But instead Labour’s policy is to spend twice that much while ensuring that the employees get paid much less, and while trying its hardest to destroy their jobs.
So, in summary: get rid of nuclear weapons by buying more of them, in order to protect jobs by trying to get rid of them, because the world has become more dangerous so we have to give our weapons away. Have we missed anything?
You’d have to be clinically insane to believe anything Oily Owen says. He embodies pretty much every unpleasant characteristic you can imagine in a politician.
Venal self-serving scum doesn’t even begin to cover it….
Nope! That pretty much sums it up.
They want to run the UK you know. Scary or what?
3. Smith tells us that we need Trident because the world has become a more dangerous place
It has and its mostly down to red and blue tory Westminster. Anyway best value for money/bnag for buck option is sticking nuclear missiles on trucks and driving them round and round English cities like London that actually want them. Its no different from stashing Trident nukes in multi billion steel tubes 30 miles from Glasgow and a lot cheaper.
“We suspect that if you offered every employee dependent on Trident £125,000 a year for life to sit at home and watch box sets of Game Of Thrones…”
£25 k would do it !
As per, you expose the irreconcilable paradox Stuart.
Let’s see if Angus and the gang can get it through to some thick headed people tomorrow.
Translation
“We have to renew Trident if that is the advice of the political analysts…first and foremost I want to be elected, everything else is secondary”
Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up ? I never did understand why so many issues get conflated with independance, they seem pretty separate to me. You can certainly believe in one and not the other.
The current instability in the world was not “mostly” caused by the last two UK govt at all btw, wtf ?
Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ? Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc
Woody
Yes
Yes
No.
Anything else ?
I watched these interviews. The Labour Party is in a far greater mess than I could ever have imagined.
Is it even worth discussing Labour lunacy anymore? Nobody is listening to them anymore in Scotland.
Labour!
Bringing ludicrously expensive WMD Weapons of Mass Destruction to a city near you. Especially near you happy campers in Glasgow.
Viewers in Scotland have their own program, Scottish Labour ludicrously expensive WMD’s, Weapon of Mass Distortion, the BBC, coming to a livingroom near you.
BTW
A couple of hundred billion will keep the trough topped up for ages. Lots of lovely NEDs.
Perfect example of not only having two diametrically opposite positions but articulating them in one interview.
Serious logic problems.
And the nukes have to be at HM Clyde because it’s a long way from London & we’re Better Together.
Yes, they could be stored in the south east of England but our constituents would object & since most of the Establishment lives there too, we’re keeping them in Scotland.
Any questions?
Not much we do not HAVE to know about in your best of all worlds and kindest of unions Woody. Are you wan o those Am happy in poverty UK/FUK. It is so wonderful down there.I believe there is a train there very hour Woody. And nae greetin faced Scots just celebratory english nationalist. The best in the world.
More information on aftermath of nuclear war here: link to wp.me
We must keep nuclear weapons to preserve jobs in Scotland as this could lead to closures of Greggs affecting Jackie Baillie directly
We all know what’s going to happen The Tories’ll vote for it the Red Tories’ll vote for it the SNP will vote agin it the odd Lib Dum will faff about the Greens’ll vote agin it they’ll all natter all day about morals and poor people and say they’re all sorry to be doing it and it’ll be overwhelmingly carried as usual
So there you are public they very seriously took all day to vote the way they were going to vote before after and during the debate and who gives a monkeys about what you think
Coz we know what happens if the public get a vote don’t we
they might vote to scrap it and just like Brexit they wouldn’t know what to do with the result
And for the Jeremy Corbyn supporters, if it came down to his deciding vote he’d keep the damn shit and he knows it
It’s just a lovely and easy position to be the protest party man when you know you’re going to lose so he wears his protest beret and marches with his deluded minions until that whopping great ministerial pension pot’s at it’s highest level so he can retire for the good of the party or his health
Aah Politics, difficult to work out innit
Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ? Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc
No.
Any idea what the plan is for the 4 vanguards? I mean, it is not as if they could just tie them up in a dock, say, 10 miles from our capital city and leave them there to rust?
Don’t faint but from what I read on twitter, Scotland on Sunday’s editorial is anti-Trident renewal.
Woody
“Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up ?”
Only the ones with human DNA which at last check was 100%.
Can’t vouch for other parties though.
Woody
Defence is one area in particular you will find there are plenty wingers with extensive knowledge. It is remarkable really.
As for areas this site’s posters are not total experts in- I’ve yet to see much evidence wingers have knowledge of backing down, giving up or getting back in the box.
We’re you ever in a toy shop as a child and wanted something really badly ?
The trick to actually getting it ,was to feign reluctance and express sympathetic views about it’s cost.
These people have never grown up. They want it, but have to express reluctance to try and satisfy a voting demographic.
@Woody,
I consider myself pretty well educated. I have two degrees, but let me tell you, I have learned more on this site than I ever did in daily life. There are plenty of smart and informed people posting on this site. Try absorbing what they tell you.
[…] Wings Over Scotland The Labour case for Trident This is prospective Labour leader Owen Smith on the Andrew Marr show this morning, […]
WRT Trident, I particularly liked Wee Ginger Dog’s likening of the UK’s stance to that of Norma Desmond:
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
Plus Frankie Boyle, of course:
link to theguardian.com?
also Ian Jack’s Long Read on Trident:
link to theguardian.com
It is particularly remarkable that Westminster is debating the commissioning of a weapons system that would not go into action for another 12 years – while there is serious debate about whether they would have control over its main base for that many months.
Woody: “Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil”
Do all unionist trolls have to make public their idiocy?
A nuclear war is guaranteed universally devastating that the winner is down to the last man standing.
More here: link to wp.me
What a massive tw”t that Labour guy is.
Labour are so bloody irrelevant for the next decade, they should just broadcast the test card for a few mins. A wee girl with a clown is a fitting tribute.
Only the Tories, led by May, think this is the ideal time for this vote.
We are shit on their shoe.
Frankie Boyle archived
link to archive.is
Trident.A North Britain perspective from Engerland.
BBC Scotland Politics on-line:-
“…………….A source close to Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said: “This government was elected on a manifesto to build four ballistic missile submarines to replace the current fleet. We committed to hold a vote and we need to have this now given the time it takes to build and test the submarines.
“All MPs will have to decide whether to gamble with our national security. The SNP will be voting to weaken our security and to close Faslane, Scotland’s biggest employment site.”
Scotland’s biggest employment site?
Archived: link to archive.is
Welcome to Owen Smith’s world of batshit crazy and fucked-up thinking.
The big problem isn’t renewing Trident, it’s renewing Trident then handing the launch codes to Labour.
Actually, that’s not quite true. The big problem IS renewing Trident.
Launch codes without any missiles to launch is just sudoku, and even Labour can’t hurt anybody with a number puzzle.
Well summarised.
It’s all about BritNats pretending to be much bigger fish than the wee herring they really are.
It’s what Scotland is up against – the fear of Greater England losing status and prestige. Losing Scotland, losing their precious WMD club membership.
As for Trident costs. What they aren’t considering is that Scotland is highly likely to have become an independent country within the lifetime of Trident MkI, far less its replacement. They will have to factor in early decommissioning or expensive relocation.
The footprint in Scotland is twofold, as I understand it. Faslane is a deep water access naval base, and Coulport is an WMD storage facility. I can foresee a presence at Faslane being negotiated in a complex Indy deal. Perhaps a lease for ten years. Coulport seems to me to be a totally different entity. I could not imagine Scotland continuing to actually store another country’s nukes. It’s unimaginable and probably unacceptable internationally.
So, in the current debate on Trident, Scotland’s constitutional status and the Brexit crisis are far more than just an elephant in the room!
This is how bloody ridiculous it is having a nuclear deterrent. The UK continually has the piss ripped, by the Russians just observing from above and below.
The Russians have very high tech, that many only dream of. They took some of it for an outing when they entered Syria, a great chance to show off some incredible weaponry.
They have just devised an almost silent submarine, that has missiles with a 900 mile range.
This pathetic and dangerous cold war with the Russians beggars belief, and even idiots like Erdogan and Kerry have recently been make friendly noises about Russia.
Another major reason to be out of this warmonger union.
link to ibtimes.co.uk
‘He later studied History and French at the University of Sussex. He worked for the BBC as a radio producer for 10 years, working on a variety of programmes in both Wales and London, including Today for BBC Radio Four and the weekly politics programme Dragon’s Eye for BBC Cymru Wales television.[8]
Smith then entered the biotechnology and pharmaceuticals industry for five years, and in 2005 became head of policy and government relations for pharmaceutical corporation Pfizer, where he was paid £80,000 a year to lobby for the company.[4] Leaving Pfizer in September 2008 he subsequently joined Amgen, another pharmaceutical company’
So his main experience is as a lobbyist. Obviously the guy to lead (new/newish/a bit to the right/a lot to the right/just give me the money – delete as applicable) labour.
Rev you, obviously, haven’t been paying attention to APD, at £250k a job whilst paying the peons (lets be generous £50k thats £200k that can be used to educate our future mathematicians in bailiematics). Plus as our patriotic roll as the 51st state of the USA (ignore that Brexit crap) we can reduce their costs of a weapon they’d obviously, as history tells us, never use.
Anybody seen an aircraft carrier with aeroplanes on them recently? Naw, me neither.
WMD: a waste of money.
Britnats: a waste of space.
I’ll tell you what we ARE experts at @Woody
We’re brilliant at not being stupid at least more than once
your lot enjoy making a habit of it
Oh, dear!
Frankie Boyle was not joking about ‘Windows For Submarines’
A must read!
link to archive.is
And here’s a taste.
Critics point in particular to the Royal Navy’s decision to install a variant of Windows XP as the operating system on its missile-carrying Vanguard-class submarines. It was cheaper than the alternatives, but Windows for Submarines, as it is called, is also more vulnerable to malware as it comes off-the-shelf. This also means there are more bugs in circulation that could affect it, and every time a submarine comes to port and gets a software patch, it is newly vulnerable.
The programme, spelled out again for those of the hard of hearing.
Liking the detail though. MAY 2017 ?
“When asked if she would be happy to have an independence referendum in the first half of next year, she said: “I will have an indyref if I come to conclusion that is in the best interests of Scotland.
“I’ve always said that. It would be up to Scottish people ultimately to decide if that is right way to go.”
link to bbc.co.uk
@ Woody
Outclassed – now sit at the desk at the front of the class and come back when you have done your homework.
Its not now a case of Beam me up Scottie.
Rev book me in fur ah Physiatric Evaluation. Politicians like Owen are a danger to one’s mental health
The more that labour are exposed the more it becomes evident that Corbyn and McDonnell are the only two labour politicians with common sense, morality and decency, the rest are confused self serving clowns like this guy smith and his colleague eagle.
Two forces are emerging in the fight for Scottish independence, firstly the competence of the SNP leadership and secondly that both labour and tories are a shambles. How can yo get to brexit with out a plan, the only party who had a plan was the SNP.
I see eagle and others are deploying a tactic used in the Scottish independence referendum, namely claiming people are being beastly to them, if your only policy is this, you alnt got a lot going for you.
No doubt at all is there that the vote will be to renew this abomination, funny word that, abomb-in-nation.
Surely, absolutely not one politician, and we know they will all be unionist ones, can ever stand in parliament and moan on about poverty, foodbanks, job cuts, austerity, homelessness, not funding the NHS, etc with a straight face, having voted to renew WMDs. Oh, wait, they don’t do they.
What do they stand for? Who do they stand up for? (we know) What are they being paid a nice wage with all the perks, for?
Take your disgusting nukes down south, if you want to keep em, the jobs will still be there then, just not in Scotland and which yoon ever cared about jobs in Scotland.
@mike cassidy
Reminded me of the “divide by zero” leads to ship “dead in the water” incident with US Navy.
link to gcn.com
Yes, us wingers know a thing or two about most things, and have long memories.
Enjoy the schadenfreude.
Woody, who gave you that name, your Mammy?
She dun well.
Trident is one of the deepest fault lines in UK – Scottish relations after Brexit, and not just because support for renewal appears waning in the opinion polls.
Tomorrow’s motion will be opposed by 98 per cent of Scotland’s MPs, with only the Conservative Scottish Secretary, David Mundell, likely to support it.
From a more eclectic article by McWhirter:
link to archive.is
Spot on Rev ! You know your stuff alright.
Can I just remind everyone that the former Chief of the UK Army has confirmed that the USA hold the launch code to these missiles in secret, and although the Labour and Tory Parties may wish to launch a Weapon of Mass Destruction, at some point, they must ask the USA, if they are in agreement and are willing to release the code?
The UK Pays for it and the USA can play with it?
Could we also look at the extremely unlikely situation where Russia starts to invade their former satellite countries, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania?
Lets say the Russians are not doing as well as they would have like in the battle, they decide that the UK Army based along these borders are the problem, so in frustration they fire a Nuclear Missile at Rosyth, hoping to take out Westminster’s Trident Missiles that are based there.
Glasgow and Edinburgh and everything in-between are destroyed in a Nuclear Holocaust. (That’s me gone for good)
Westminster who is OK down in London asks the USA if they would mind passing on a launch code to a UK nuclear sub already at sea. On this occasion they agree.
They fire at the Russian City that Launched the Missile attack, Ostrov, on the Russian Latvian Border.
The Missile wipes out millions of Russian, Estonian, and Latvian men, women and Children just a few minutes later.
Both parties now cease fire.
Radiation from both strike areas drifts in the winds for hundred of miles and covers the whole of Scotland with deadly radiation that now covers our Reservoirs, our arable crops, the grass eaten by our cattle and sheep, etc.
Any Scottish survivors eat and drink what they can find, and soon afterwards die of Radiation Poisoning.
Same thing is happening in Russia, and to our NATO allies in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.
Can I ask if anyone in their right mind can see this as
a victory and an opportunity that we don’t want to pass us by?
The NHS is running out of funds as more and more of the nation become elderly and infirm.
Educational Budget are cut and all parties outside of Scotland want to charge for university education.
Infrastructure does not have the money to invest in Rail, Road and Air passenger travel.
The Nation doesn’t have the money to pay off the hideous interest terms of the PFI Funded Schools and Hospitals.
The UK has millions of families now dependent on Food Banks. Could some extra money remove the need for them?
The Tories have already attacked the Disabled as the support they require is considered too expensive.
Anyone think that the above list of essentials could better use £200,000,000,000 than some war mongering politician’s proposals for bombs that will kill you and the innocents of some foreign lands?
@Dr Jim
Quite the thing that, yet your are determined to plough headlong into another referendum that you will lose.
The russians do not have amazingly high tech that the west can only dream of, this site is full of some of the most ridiculous claims i’ve seen in some time. Most of their shitty cruise missiles fell on Iran.
Supposing that the SNP even won another referendum, I wouldn’t be so sure that they would get rid of the nuclear base, the NATO member that is responsible for dismantling part of NATOs deterrent.
Arrogantly pontificating about stuff you know f all about and repeatedly attempting to belittle and insult any opposing voices, despite said voices being the clear the majority of the of the country you claim to have the best interests of at heart, is a pretty good barometer of your intelligence and superiority complex, and is why you lost the last referendum and will lose the next one.
Partnership.
Remember that word after the debate and vote.
@Mike Cassidy
I’ve read that item before.
I don’t know why anyone in the UK would believe Trident is the answer to any of their fears.
China and Russia are so far in front, we can’t even see them.
France didn’t prevent a suicide nutter from driving that truck. Hollandes response – join the Reserves, get used to this, and we will do more bombing runs on Muslims.
With men like him in charge, we have no chance at peace. Expect some type of craziness here shortly.
@Woody
Bruce and the spider old chum. I was taught that at primary school.
We shall ultimately be free. One ref?, two refs?, three? however many it takes.
This is again a genuine question not rhetoric, would you be happy if all NATO members gave up all their nuclear weapons ?
@Effigy
The only upside to that scenario, is that the irradiated Walking Dead, will head South, to partake of the ‘broad shoulders’ our union with the UK, affords us.
@Woody
Genuine question how many NATO members have nuclear weapons?
Do your homework, as suggested.
If we must have trolls, I must say, Woody is good value for money.
@Woody
I wouldn’t dream of belittling or insulting you when you make such a wonderful job of doing that yourself in whatever country you might be referring to, or are you having a difficult geography moment again
I also had no Idea you were an expert on Russian munitions and where they intended to fire them and at whom, but I’ll bow to your obvious superior knowledge on all things decided by Mr Putin and his country
Perhaps if you applied the same diligence to the affairs of whichever country within the United Kingdom you live you might not come accross as someone who appears to be interfering in other peoples countries that are none of your business
Maybe Mr Peffers is about and can give you a short compact history and geography lesson at the same time
I’ll just give you the really short version
The United Kingdom is NOT a country, learn that and you’re on your way to being less of an Arse
@Betty Boop
eh, whatever.
@Robert Kerr
Who are “We” ?
Woody says:
17 July, 2016 at 2:12 pm
This is again a genuine question not rhetoric, would you be happy if all NATO members gave up all their nuclear weapons ?
So loads of insult and then a stupid question. You’re on fire today Woody.
Erm, what has the number of NATO members who have nuclear weapons got to do with the question ? FFS what does listing those individual countries have to do with your answer ?
The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, to which UK is a signatory, prohibits development of new nuclear weapons systems. How do Owen Smith et al reconcile that with their support for spending 200 billion on Trident renewal? (I know, I know, it’s “just an upgrade, it’s not a new system”, but you can hardly persuade other countries not to bend the rules by bending the rules yourself).
How is it a stupid question ?
@Bugger 1:56.
Sprayed the screen with coffee and biscuit there Jim.
🙂
“can only imagine that Labour are AMAZING at poker” NO they are a busted flush
Dr Jim,
So i have insulted myself ? Clever.
How can someone who is Scottish, lived and worked in Scotland all my life, raised my children here etc be “interfering” ? I think you are the one showing how much of a total dick you are with your patronising bullshit about “your” country. It isn’t your country any more than it is mine, so you can fuck right off with that shite.
I also had no Idea you were an expert on Russian munitions
But you seem happy to accept that “Valerie” is – not only Russian, but Chinese. Interesting that isn’t it.
I noticed that there was the convenient announcment a few days ago that the UK is purchasing 9 Boeing P8 maritime reconnaisance aircraft, to be based at Lossiemouth with the promise of ‘up to’ 2000 jobs. These were, it was said on the BBC, ‘to protect Trident and its replacement’. First of all, who thinks this will happen? And anyway the ‘protection’ Trident will get from it will be zero once the shooting starts – the P8 ‘eyes’ will be first target to be splashed.
A wee bit of background that I know Wingers will already be aware of, but is worth repeating for the appropriately named Woody’s education, The Boeing P8 is based on the 1964 designed 737 airliner that carries Woody to Magaluf every year. Updated certainly, big and slow? Oh yes. (the Boeing, not Woody!) Those won’t be roundels painted on the side, they’ll be targets.
So who got the backhander for cancelling our (admitedly 1947-based) Comet-derived Nimrods? Show me where this helps our balance of payments deficit?
From Trident to Kevlar vests, the defence procurement of the UK stinks of wastefulness and inefficiency. And its not even any good for defending the UK – its ‘force-projection’ at its civillian-killing best.
Woody says:
17 July, 2016 at 2:28 pm
How is it a stupid question ?
Well what’s it got to do with the Westminster renewal vote next week, and has teamGB actually got between £167bn and £225bn to lash out on a weapon that they cant ever use?
Rancid The Graun piles in too-
“SNP urges Theresa May to delay vote on Trident renewal
Party’s Westminster leader says Tories and Labour are in no fit state for decision after month of ‘backstabbing and navel-gazing’”
Westminster’s so fcuked up they cant even hit the art 50 button, let alone the big one. Their nuke vote’s clearly just part of Westminster’s political games Woody, squeeze JC, force out Lab’s red tory war hawks. Eagle loves a bloody good war though, well they all do. Its only fackin money and if one does go off in Scotland, its the end of the sweatie problem too.
Since I mentioned Magaluf hosing Woody’s hols, this is maybe a good time to point out to that namesake of a dick that Spain was a nuclear-hosting nation and subsequently had them removed from Spanish soil so the likes of Woody can come back from touring the English theme pubs there without glowing in the dark.
A courtesy not yet extended to tourist visiting the West Coast of Scotland.
If anybody needs a nuclear laugh –
and you will laugh in a wtf way –
link to youtube.com
Do all Blood and Soil British Nationalists have to be psychopathic cretins? Question directed at any waste of oxygen, Answer is obviously yes.
@Woody
Losing your temper now, that’s usually the way with Unionists when they can’t talk you to death
Or maybe you’d like to offer a new Vow or a promise that all will be better together under the control of your lot
Of course none of your lot know what they are doing about anything at the moment except for one thing, they know they want to control Scotland and it’s the only thing they’re United on
And it is my country and you’re also not Scottish because it doesn’t matter where you were born to be Scottish
I have friends with names like Humza and Ahmed who are as Scottish as me and if you were for real you’d know that
And no true Scotsman would be happy about another country stealing from it then claiming we never had it in the first place
Even you Unionists accept you’re proven liars over and over
I’ve no more time for you or your kind
Peddle your domination elsewhere
Just wondering…does EVEL not influence Owen Smith’s future hopes of being pm? I thought he has a Welsh seat.
Can he be considered pm material if he can’t vote on English matters like Scottish MPs?
This is just the established PLP line, I’ve got a letter from Ann McKechin back when she was my MP which is pretty much word for word.
@Woody
Where have I or anyone claimed to be munitions experts? You have heard of research, I presume?
You see, folk like me don’t like the smell of bullshit with our news. We like something called evidence, facts etc., so we set out and acquire it.
And the answer to your NATO question? Yes.
The whole Trident thing is sad Willie waving, which obviously still has its admirers.
It’s a pity as a father, you see nuclear armament in your child’s future. It’s better that way, eh?
Out last evening with some brexiters, pro nuclear types.
They were labour and tory. They hate Nicola Sturgeon. The tory’s love May. (obviously the Salmond effect is wearing off).
If we stay in the UK union – Scotland will have nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors (submarines) floating / sometimes submerged, heading up on down the Clyde and up the West coast. We can go to war again, against our will.
EU Union– none of the above.
Was asked if I agreed to unelected EU reps. I asked if they agreed to the House of Lords.
ps if it wasn’t for the Union Andy Murray wouldn’t win Wimbledon. I asked if Scotland’s lack of football success was due to it. Blank stares. We will end up like Greece.
Hard work the rUK’s
Trolls are wee beasts
who love a fine feast.
Don’t overfeed them,
They think then you need them.
Don’t make their day,
Or they won’t go away.
Trolls hate being bored
So please just ignore.
[Oh, and fcuk off Woody].
@Woody,
The new Russian Yasen class Severodvinsk starts it’s sea combat trials this month.
It is as quiet as the American Seawolf class and can do over 20 knots without producing cavitation from its props. It is Titanium hulled with a liquid metal cooled reactor. It is very advanced.
The design has caused Western naval intelligence some concern.
Some of us do know of what we speak.You clearly don’t.
Here’s why we shouldn’t poke the Bear, and why Trident is redundant.
See Woody, you don’t need to be an expert, just open minded.
Russian capacity, and that’s only what they are willing to.divulge.
link to archive.is
Woody! F*** Off with your pal Buzz Lightyear! Disnae Work!
Most of you will know that Scotland and Norway have much in Common.
We have similar populations, revenue from oil fields found at the same time, both were/are tied to a neighbouring countries, and both know they are better off Independent.
Norway, who became Independent was able to build up an Oil
Fund, a Fund that now exceeds $600,000,000,000.
Scotland, because it was lied to by Westminster, doesn’t have anything in any fund, as it has been squandered by
incompetent and greedy UK politicians and their “friends”.
Not only do we not have that $600,000,000,000, but as a nation who does not have the power to borrow any money, our Westminster Masters apportion a share of “Their” dept
upon us at some $20,000,000,000.
Now Scotland doesn’t want to buy new Nuclear weapons, and doesn’t want them on our soil, but our broad shoulders
at Westminster wants Scots to stump up their share of the replacement costs, at around $20,000,000,000.
So Norway, who sits next door to Russia, unlike Scotland, broke away to become independent, and didn’t spend any money on nuclear weapons, appear to be roughly better off than Scotland by some $640,000,000,000.
I think I’d like Scotland to use the old weapons on Westminster, become Independent, and be the most successful nation on planet earth!
Plan B, Just become Independent of Westminster corruption!
So,how did France’s nuclear arsenal keep them safe from a lunatic in a truck?
Has anyone ever answered the question of what would happen just now if faslane became unusable, either through terrorist attack or a natural disaster?? There must be some kind of fall back position to use another base somewhere, isn’t there??? With such expensive multi-billion pound equipment, the government can’t surely have not had a second viable base available, can they??
If not, why the hell not?? If so, why not base them there permanently instead of somewhere they are not wanted??
@Hazel Lewry,
Spot on Hazel.
Bob Mack,
Nice one ,saved me jumping in there..Christ on a bike how thick are these freakin unionistas?
Woody ,do some research ffs.
With nuclear weapons it is a moral issue for me. Not a political soundbite.
As a wee boy I remember watching the race riots in the USA on TV as a result of segregation. I knew what was right and what was wrong helped by my parents.. I couldn’t believe that people could be treated so badly because of their skin tone.(how does a racist with colour blindness resolve their fears?).
I remember the Cuban Crisis and asking my dad if we were going to die. He didn’t answer but I could see his concern for his family. Now we are in 2016. I have children and grandchildren and we still have racism in the USA and those in power tell us we need the improved nuclear weapon systems in order to get rid of them. It was wrong then it is wrong now.
The old lies regurgitated and tarted up.
This time though we can learn the truth from various sources. Even woody above should he wish too.
Why we are being dragged into a nuclear war by USA, the biggest murderer of civilians on the planet.
I watched Putin receiving the large block of Western press, which he does, quite regularly. He actually said to the throng, I don’t know what I have to do or say to make it clear to you that Russia is the one under threat.
They are getting very sick of the game.
link to archive.is
@The isolator,
Yeah mate. What nobody has mentioned yet is the new satellite technology coming on stream ,from both East and West, which makes it possible to track subs even in the deepest oceans. They reckon by 2018 stealth sub sea warfare will be impossible.
So why invest all that money in something that will be obsolete anyway ?
Renewing trident is daft, however multilateral disarmament works just like you would think, so if you reduce yours by a set percentage then the signatories follow suit, so for every one the UK does destroy then yes 140 odd should go. Nothing crazy about that it’s how it works if it didn’t work like that then it wouldn’t be multilateral. It would be who has the most left over still has a fair few left Iver.
Great summary and analysis.
For as long as i can remeber i wanted these weapons out of my country.
They are an abonimation and economic absurdity.
@DrJIm
And no true Scotsman would be happy about…
I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.
To unionists it is a complete no-brainer that Scotland remains in the UK and that we all just need to bite down, shut up and put up with whatever is chucked at us- whether it be nuclear weapons we don’t want stationed near our largest city or withdrawal from the EU against our wishes.
Anyone who opposes this view is other-ed- denigrated as zealots, nationalists, anti-English etc etc.
Here is a wee thought- try persuading a country to take Scotland’s place in the union. Obviously Ireland is a non-starter- they got well out long ago. Would the Netherlands consider hosting trident? Downgrading their parliament? Leaving the EU on the whim of English voters? Would they accept all their income being funnelled through London and getting whatever London decrees sent back? And being derided all the time as subsidy junkies?
What about Belgium? Or Denmark? Norway are already not in the EU- would they consider hosting trident in one of the many fjords and sending their oil wealth to London?
Talking about what goes on in Labour politician’s minds is pretty boring.
I think I’ll wind-up Woody instead of discussing Labour.
‘Woody’ is probably one of those words banned on ‘The Scotman’he probably thinks it’s fun when someone quotes his name & their post is put into moderation.
Why you might ask would the name of a character from Toy Story be a banned word on ‘The Scotsman’?
Probably for the same reason that ‘massive johnson’ is banned.
Woody I would say is a pretty appropriate name for BriNat trolls.
A Woody for those who don’t read American trashy novels means a giant dick.
Having a woody is an american expression, guess we have one here. Woody really is standing up and being noted.
Woody
Why are you posting on Wings?
Why on earth do you call yourself ‘erect penis’?
Woody says:
17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm
@DrJIm
And no true Scotsman would be happy about…
I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.
The real worry, or tragedy, is that your mindset dictates that we will have Trident 2 and its all down to this rule Britannia world power and presence stupidity. Trident 2 is clearly no defence against any threat but so what, England is an imperial nation and will be given a seat at the captains table. Scotland can like it or lump it. We cant afford to pay for higher education or decent pensions but we must be able to fire nuke missiles.
Exact same Rule Britannia mentality Brexited Scots too but again, tough luck, England doesn’t want EU citizenship, so youre not getting it either.
@Woody
Your own loathing of the now more than 50% of Scots that support Independence is plain to see.
Tuck your shirt back in your drawers your crack is showing.
Aw is @Woodlouse away in the huff, diddums
I don’t think he liked me, well anybody really
Anyway no time for these folk pretending they’re trying to discuss stuff when all they really want is to impose stuff
The referendum’s likely coming and most people pretty much know where they stand since the Brexit vote, but this time business is on our side and the clever brainy types as well
Only the Meeja will oppose now and Mini May Davidson
coz Kezia is too blinded by tears to choose the future for the wee babies and Willie Rennie will shake his head and say I personally don’t want this to happen but if it’s what the people want what can I say, do you want a photy of me on a bouncy castle
Scotland, land of the free and home of the, well, free
Woody: “How can someone who is Scottish, lived and worked in Scotland all my life, raised my children here etc be “interfering”?
Another poop scoop finds no crap on site.
A Scot are you, with family? But think Scotland should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?
Hope to god you sent your kids to a good school. Your argument is idiotic, your manners and courtesy suck.
For all we know you could claim to be Che Guevara’s cousin, or the Pope practicing written English.
Has there been any discussion about the new currency?
Woody says:
17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm
@DrJIm
And no true Scotsman would be happy about…
I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.
I don’t disagree with everything you’ve said on here but if The “majority of men and women” you talk of is the 55% who bought the lies and deceit of the establishment you love so much during the the independence referendum you’re wrong.
I can’t talk for everyone on here but I don’t loath them I pity them and I doubt very much they are still a majority.
So if you’ve had enough go pick up your flute and your sash and join the rest of your Britnat hate mob I’m sure they’ll agree with everything you have to say and quietly piss off
Graeme
Hmm – Are flutes wood-wind?
@Ruby
Plenty discussion on our new currency. We jocks should spend all our scroats on new nuclear missiles. Were keeping the food banks open which at least shows when it comes to spending the scroats in our pocket we at least have our priorities right.
Dint we just!
Hah, Graeme, seems our posts crossed, but great minds eh! 🙂
Another argument used by Unionists on the siting of their WMD’ is that there are ‘no deep water ports capable of doing the job’ in England.
Absolute shite with diarrhea on top!
Even if there wasn’t any, have they never heard of dredging?
The reasons they don’t keep these WMD’ down in England are obvious. Apart from the very real dangers the English don’t want them there, especially their money classes and any attempts to site them on English coastal waters would send a majority into one helluva hairy fit.
The other obvious reason London is hell-bent on these murderous phallic symbols is to keep in with Uncle Sam. I mean, what good would the old ship USS Britannia be without weapons?
FINANCIALLY SUNK AND ABANDONED!
BTW, another great article Stu, thanks!
It would appear that the Labour party have learned absolutely nothing from their electoral defeats especially in Scotland. Watching the two challengers to Corbyn was enlightening in the sense that they still feel a sense of entitlement and that if they keep spouting the same garbage eventually we will all start believing it. Orwell’s 1984 comes to mind with his terminology of Double Speak being the Labour party’s policy.
The International Court of Justice gave its Advisory Opinion in 1996 on the legality of the use or threat of nuclear weapons, in response to a resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations. Reflecting the Opinion on the legality of Trident, whilst it cannot be concluded definitively that the threat or use of Trident is illegal, at the very least the legality of the programme is brought into considerable doubt
‘After sketching the historical development of the body of rules which originally were called “laws and customs of war” and later came to be termed “international humanitarian law”, the Court observes that the cardinal principles contained in the texts constituting the fabric of humanitarian law are the following.
The first is aimed at the protection of the civilian population and civilian objects and establishes the distinction between combatants and non-combatants; States must never make civilians the object of attack and must consequently never use weapons that are incapable of distinguishing between civilian and military targets.
According to the second principle, it is prohibited to cause unnecessary suffering to combatants: it is accordingly prohibited to use weapons causing them such harm or uselessly aggravating their suffering. In application of that second principle, States do not have unlimited freedom of choice of means in the weapons they use…
The Court observes that, in view of the unique characteristics of nuclear weapons, to which the Court has referred above, the use of such weapons in fact seems scarcely reconcilable with respect for the requirements of the law applicable in armed conflict…
In the long run, international law, and with it the stability of the international order which it is intended to govern, are bound to suffer from the continuing difference of views with regard to the legal status of weapons as deadly as nuclear weapons. It is consequently important to put an end to this state of affairs: the long-promised complete nuclear disarmament appears to be the most appropriate means of achieving that result
link to icj-cij.org
It’s not just lawyers who are concerned- medics are also opposed to Trident renewal.
‘War and conflict are major causes of human suffering. They also cause environmental degradation, contribute to global warming, perpetuate inequalities and undermine democracy. Nuclear bombs and other indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction are incompatible with the public health aims of safety and health protection.
But a vast complex of standing armies, militias, weapons manufacturers, arms traders and politicians promote war, violence and militarism out of self-interest and greed, or because they fail to see better alternatives for resolving conflict and disputes.
Health professionals have a long history of being engaged with various aspects of war in a positive manner. This has included: providing humanitarian relief; facilitating ceasefires and the cessation of conflict; promoting disarmament and peacebuilding; and providing impartial evidence on the perpetration of war crimes.
Medact grew out of the medical peace movement (see history) and is the UK-affiliate of the Nobel Laureate ‘International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War’ (IPPNW).
Medact continues to promote disarmament; seek the abolition of nuclear weapons; and reduce the power and influence of the global military-industrial complex. It promotes the universal right to health as a platform for peace building and more effective international diplomacy and cooperation’
link to medact.org
Trident renewal should be considered in relation to the findings of Chilcot and the fall out from Iraq which asks many questions of trust, accountability, governance, morality in our political leaders. Some of whom clearly still struggle with the appropriate political responses to the issues that threaten humanity globally and which require international solutions- addressing inequalities and the development of sustainable food and energy resource.
More simply there is no democratic mandate to renew Trident in Scotland.
Actually there is one redeeming feature to a decision to join with the USA in developing Trident 3. (It can’t be Trident 2 BTW, because Trident 2 is what we already have!)
The reason I say that is that one of the alternatives the UK government could go for would be developing our own system from scratch … And when you look at the UK’s track record in developing complex defence systems (e.g. CVA01, Polaris Chevaline, Nimrod AEW, Nimrod MRA4 to name just the really well-known ones), that should make anyone feel queasy! (I’m sure BAe would claim they could develop one, but based on the past record I’d suggest they’d bust their budget by a factor of 5 or more and not actually produce a working system at the end.)
The referendum’s likely coming and most people pretty much know where they stand since the Brexit vote,
@DrJim
I don’t think anyone knows where they stand, nothing has been sorted, or established yet, there will be positives to Brexit though.
One of them will be Scottish exports will surge, supplies of Fish, Whisky and Shortbread will be eagerly gobbled up by Johny Foreigner.
This is all due to the SG promoting and investing heavily in community driven projects and workers cooperatives, where Scotland poor and vulnerable and hitherto unemployed are getting properly rewarded for their high skill sets.
Whats not to like when Scots, living in Scotland, run businesses for Scots.
Oh and the pound has dropped 20% , so our goods are a lot cheaper, that helps as well.
😉
After Indy in 2017 I will buy a Kilt and lobby for some business from the SG , will have to get my donations to the YES side in quick though and make them hefty.
”
but this time business is on our side and the clever brainy types as well”
they have been missing up to now ?
@Woody
You don’t understand debate. You questioned our non support of Trident, we gave you lots of opinions and facts.
Keep up your end, and tell us why it’s needed, or why we should continue with the UK union – that is surely an open goal?
You are using that lame ‘you hate everyone’.
American lurker here. The reality is that anything big enough to trigger nukes would be at least a continent-sized war, in which having Trident would be at best an afterthought.
The big powers who have nukes on foreign soil have always kept complete control over them. Russia didn’t allow Castro access to its nukes, either. (I don’t know if China has any nukes off its territory). One reason I suspect is that of secrecy. Another, is to avoid them being taken hostage by various government and governmental factions. The United States has done the same (remember the fuss over SS-20’s in Germany?)
Trident is a relic of the Cold War, when some felt that Britain needed some sort of deterrent against Russia.
Bob Mack says:
17 July, 2016 at 3:44 pm
@The isolator,
Yeah mate. What nobody has mentioned yet is the new satellite technology coming on stream ,from both East and West, which makes it possible to track subs even in the deepest oceans. They reckon by 2018 stealth sub sea warfare will be impossible.
So why invest all that money in something that will be obsolete anyway ?
Not forgetting the the speed of evolution in autonomous deep underwater drones !!!!!!!!!
Our First Minister is on the Marr Show at about 37:30 on Iplayer.
Strewth she’s good.
I can see now that perhaps the position we wanted before Brexit of the UK being kept in by Scottish votes with the English narrowly voting to leave, may in fact be what are being offered. Bearing in mind that Labour is going to be unelectable, and UKIP can blame the Scots instead of Brussels, who knows what the eventual outcome is going to be. And meanwhile Farage, Gove, Cameron and Osborne are gone while Boris has been given the dream job of having to go round the world appologising for his previous statements.
I’m still preparing for a May/2017 ID2, but maybe it will be back to 2020 again after all. Nail biting stuff.
Walk quietly, woody seems to have gone – or is he just changing names!!! Pity, he was funny in a thicko kind of way.
Great article as usual, although it fried my brain a bit and had to read it a couple of times (well it’s about labour innit?)
Anyway, I don’t need to know anything about them to know they are the worst thing humans have invented.
BTW watch out for sneaky moves from cruella d’evel (sorry if that’s already been done) and her non-government such as:
link to theguardian.com
davidb – Nicola was good on Politics Scotland an hour later, where the Brewster never landed a blow.
She should do all the BBC interviews for the SNP!!
Ruby: “Has there been any discussion about the new currency?”
Can’t be until the report with recommendations is release … to allow time for another torrent of falsehoods and derision from unionists to subside.
Late to the thread so sorry if this has been mentioned but:
If we have had nuclear weapons all these years and the world is a much more dangerous place now then that surely demonstrates that nuclear weapons are a wast of money.
Try not invading Arab countries and bombing them.
The Sunday Herald has an article on how they are not independent but controlled by the USA.
link to archive.is
@ Tam Jardine.
And just think if Scotland offered itself to any other country in the world on the basis of its current relationship to the UK.
Take all our taxes and resources, have army, navy and air force stationed here as well as WMD’s, talk to the world on our behalf.
all in exchange for some pocket money.
The queue would be a long one.
Scotland’s own people have well noted that’s Scotland’s influence on UK foreign policy,whether Iraq,Trident,rendition flights or EU fishing policy,is negligible…almost ZERO.
Meanwhile Scotland’s own European backyard offers plenty examples of small independent democracies contributing to global development (out of proportion to their size).Eleven of the EU member states are the same size or smaller than Scotland and they were all able to decide for themselves about sending troops to Iraq or having nuclear bases on their territory.
An iScotland will be a strong supporter of international law and of the network of intergovernmental institutions,NATO,WTO,ITU to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons,we would have DIRECT representation,on the many organisations that contribute to the effective management of global interdependence.
Within this framework an iScotland would decide on three key relationships,EU,UK and with collective military alliances.
The key defence decisions facing iScotland,would be on nuclear bases and NATO membership,most likely would be the end of British nuclear bases,the either neutrality (Sweden,Austria,Ireland,Finland,Switzerland) and non NATO membership or non-nuclear membership like Norway.
#scotlandsvoice
It’s not only Trident the USA control but England too.
All that diversionary nonsense from wee Englanders about being controlled by Brussels, and not a sausage about the control from the USA.
They control NATO policy, which means how we spend out taxes, Israeli policy, internal policy towards terrorist insurgents, armament distribution, cultural colonialism, broadcasting, trade with many South American countries, decades of trade with Cuba, the list goes on and on.
I think James Clark Maxwell would have great difficulty working out an equation on the likelihood of the world powers agreeing to a multinational agreement to rid themselves of all types of neuclar weapons.
Whenever I hear any politician declare his/her option is for a multinational agreement , I just know that they are “at it”, and have no intention of voteing to remove neuclar weapons.
I’m with Hamish100 on this one – I was a child of the late 1950’s – all other persuasive arguments for ridding ourselves of these abominations aside. For me it comes down to simple morality.
@GB
If as you say England is controlled by USA, what countries are NOT controlled by USA, and how will iScotland compare to them.
Interesting point you made about “cultural colonialism”, at least with indy Scots wont have to go to California to fund their film industry, their will be plenty of investment from the SG and better films too.
@Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 12:22 pm:
“Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up?”
No.
” … I never did understand why so many issues get conflated with independance, they seem pretty separate to me. You can certainly believe in one and not the other.
Seems to be rather a lot of things you do not understand, Woody. Could you explain why that might be?
BTW: How do you expect to understand Scottish, or indeed any form on independence, when you seem unable to even spell the word correctly?
” … The current instability in the world was not “mostly” caused by the last two UK govt at all btw, wtf ?”
Your evidence for that particular claim is what precisely, Woody?
“Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ?”
Yes! There are a few but not very many. You see, Woody, some of us have been studying all and every aspect of the Scottish and English kingdoms historic relationships for many decades. My own personal studies in those matters goes back at least 70 years.
” … Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc”
Oh! Dear! Woody, you missed out the theory of Relativity, Quantum Physics, Nuclear Physics and the differences between the English legal system and that of the still independent Scottish legal system.
Truth is, Woody, we do indeed have experts in almost everything under the Sun and beyond that fairly insignificant star and its planetary system.
I did have to laugh at a one particular Westminster political pundit. He referred to our place in the Universe as, “One of a vast number of Solar Systems in the Universe”.
It had flown right over his wee pointy head that the star at the centre of our little insignificant planetary system is named, “Sol”.
Thus the star we Earth dwellers call, “The Sun”, or , “Sol”, is a unique title for our very own little planetary system there are no other, “Solar Systems”, in the entire Universe.
So why do you persist in attempting to troll your betters and stop spouting your utter Westminster Propaganda pish all over this forum?
The arrogance of this leader pretender by ignoring and defying the vote of the Scottish Labour party to scrap trident says it all.
It says it all about how much consideration Labour Headquarters and many English Labour MPs have for the ‘Scottish branch’ of the party: none.
I wish Kezia and co opened their eyes for once and for all and see it for what it is: most labour MPs in Westminster don’t give a fig about Scotland or anything to do with it unless it is
a. votes so they can look powerful
b. resources that can be sucked up into the Westminster coffers
c. available space so they can put the hazardous radioactive crap they don’t want any near their voters in the South because it could affect their popularity in the vote.
Time for Scotland’s home rule my Lords. Nothing less will do, so please don’t waste your unelected time generating alternative acts of union.
This trident mess is another reason that shows just how broken and unequal this union is:
The Scottish Parliament voted to reject trident renewal in 2015 so why is it that this nation has to be silenced and forced to accept it when its own parliament voted against it? why is this nation forced to contribute to the costs of this obscenity? Why is our parliament silenced? Where is the equality and democracy on that?
Where is the ‘precious union’ that gives each partner equal voice Mrs May because I don’t see it anywhere.
I don’t know about the rest of you but I am getting increasingly fed up and less and less tolerant with all those mediocre politicians from England feeling that they have the right to patronise and lecture us on what is ‘best’ for us and what Scotland ‘should do’, when they do not live here, they do not work here, they do not pay their taxes here, they do not see the poverty in some areas here, and more importantly they do not have to suffer here the consequences of their biased and incompetent decisions. I would like to say to those: You are in no position to lecture us, so back off.
Different polls not only in Scotland but in the whole UK seemingly show that a majority of the UK citizens reject the renewal of Trident so, Mr Smith, do you really want to renew trident? Then, in respect to all those UK citizens that do not want their tax money to be used to renew this obscenity, why don’t you set up a kitty with all those MPs at Westminster, who like you feel that this useless expense is a necessity to show off internationally your power and you pay for it yourselves?
Also, Mr Smith, please don’t forget that we don’t want this toxic nuclear waste of space here in Scotland endangering our people, so, how about you take it down and put it on the pond in your back garden so you can admire it from your window every day when you get up? No pond in the back garden? Well, sir, there is always the Thames right in front of Westminster, isn’t there?
I would like to mention to Mrs May and her new cabinet that for as long as those in her party, Labour and LibDems persist in silencing, ignoring, demeaning and override our parliament (as it surely will be the case in trident) you cannot talk about a Union:
Ms May Your Union was placed on a hospital bed after being subjected to a heavy bashing by your predecessor and his spin doctor who got a lordship because of that, so the cons could win the election. The different perception between Scotland and England with regards to the EU has placed your Union on life support.
My hope is that this Trident vote that your party is pushing for will be the brave hand that finally switches the assisted ventilation of your expiring Union off. RIP
As per your comment regarding Scotland ‘voting overwhelmingly in favour of the Union’, well, PM, as I said above, which Union? Because the Union Scotland voted for in 2014 doesn’t longer exist after enduring the bashing of your predecessor and the deadly assault by the £350m-a-week-for-the-NHS brexiteers.
There is no denial that far more people voted in favour of the EU Union than in favour of remaining in the UK union, so, doesn’t that tell you something?
@GB
“Another poop scoop finds no crap on site.
A Scot are you, with family? But think Scotland should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?”
English are you, with family? But think England should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?
Yet Scottish nationalism is civic and English nationalism is all blood and soil.
@Grouse Beater says: 17 July, 2016 at 1:04 pm:
” … Do all unionist trolls have to make public their idiocy?”
Och! No! Grouse Beater, that fact is taken as read by the general, non-unionist, person.
I am not sure of the relevance of other NATO members giving up their nuclear weapons. There’s only two, the USA and France. France, like the UK, keep their own system apart from NATO nuclear sharing so it would make little difference to the UK or NATO if France gave up its independent nuclear capability. The USA are the only member state who contribute nuclear missiles to NATO’s nuclear sharing.
So far I haven’t heard of the UK planning to leave NATO, but as they seem intent on leaving the EU, the EHCR, and presumably, as May seems intent on denying Scottish people the Article 1 right of self-determination, the UN I wouldn’t put it past them.
Assuming the UK stays in NATO, what purpose is served by having an independent nuclear capability? The saying about having a dog and barking yourself comes to mind. Do we not trust our NATO allies to act in our defence if we are subject to nuclear threat? Or are we planning to embark on a nuclear attack on some other country without NATO’s backing? Or even attack one of our NATO allies? I don’t know, I can’t imagine what the scenario would be where the UK engaged in a nuclear attack on another country that NATO were not prepared to undertake. Who are we going to attack that our allies won’t? Nobody, is the simple answer. If we did, and assuming any of us survived, the UK would be the pariah country of the world for decades to come. Even North Korea wouldn’t want to know us.
The thing is an unusable waste of vast sums of money. It serves no worthwhile defensive purpose. It’s only point is to buy a permanent seat on the UN security council to try and retain the illusion that the UK is still a major world power.
@ Meindevon at 2.59
Smith is the MP for Pontypridd, and it was certainly pointed out that Stephen Crabb’s Welsh seat would make him an unsuitable Tory leader.
Presumably a Labour government would try to repeal EVEL before it affected Smith, but I would think it would be hampering enough while he was Leader of the Opposition.
He’s an extraordinary numpty, anyway. As a non-owner of a TV, I’d never heard him speak before watching the clip at the top of this article. Woeful.
@ Capella
I thought that too, and has been pointed out, France has suffered several horrendous attacks despite her nuclear capability.
o/t – with my last comment, for the first time I got the “you are posting too quickly” message. I think I double-clicked the submit button. When I retried with a single click, it posted with no message. I’ll try that again with this comment.
Single click works; now to try double-clicking again.
Single click works; now to try double-clicking again.
(That generates “duplicate comment”, so not the answer. Mystery remains.)
Woody Woodpecker is obviously a BUM bandit.
His opening gambit on this thread was to ridicule its contributors.
Game over, debate lossed Woody! Good for the post count though!
just read @Woody says –
What a wee immature idiot.
GTF
“Whenever I hear any politician declare his/her option is for a multinational agreement , I just know that they are “at it”, and have no intention of voting to remove nuclear weapons.”
Completely agree, Albaman. Such weapons are simply immoral and obscene and anyone, like Smith, who says he would use them should be led away by the men in the white coats. I wonder how many CND members will be in Labour’s 65%? And how many here in Scotland voted No, despite a Yes vote guaranteeing Trident removal? That really stuck in my craw.
I see Pull-String (“There’s a Trident in my boots!”) Woody is back.
Dearie, dearie me.
The “you” in the “you are posting too quickly” is plural so don’t take it personally.
Btw nice piece on current by Robert Peffers on the previous thread.
Papko
Can I ask you what it is you are trying to achieve by posting on Wings?
@galamcennalath says: 17 July, 2016 at 1:28 pm:
” I could not imagine Scotland continuing to actually store another country’s nukes. It’s unimaginable and probably unacceptable internationally.”
Very true, galamcennalath, but have you considered this aspect of the matter?
The international anti-proliferation laws and particularly those of the USAsians that are against any new nations becoming nuclear powers.
If the United, Kingdom ceases to exist, (and as a two partner United Kingdom it legally will cease to exist upon the Scottish Kingdom’s withdrawal from the union), then both nations Status Quo ante is reversion to their former status as two individual Kingdoms.
Then both are in exactly the same position and neither has any legal right to claim to still be a United Kingdom as neither kingdom is united with any other British kingdoms. Indeed there were no other British Kingdoms in 1706/7 and the Kingdom of England then already included both Wales & Ireland.
So both kingdoms will be nations that never were nuclear powers. What will the international bodies like the UN or NATO have to say about that?
More to the point, what will those nations with ambitions to become nuclear powers have to say?
I do hope Papko & Woody are posting here in order to convince others of the merits of being in the Union.
I have a few questions to ask.
Owen Jones is just another Tory that wears Labour colours. Most of them do, no reason to be surprised that a man like him says he would “press the button.” Most of them would. One million dead, so what says a wannabe Labour leader.
Well he says he would at least. Actually pressing it is something else entirely.
I just can’t understand the Labour party anymore. Woody and Papko make more sense as delussioned as they may be.
Who in their right mind would listen to them? So why would anyone care what a non entity like Owen Jones has to say?
I believe it’s the end of days. The Union is over, Scotland has been left with no other choice.
Trident hasen’t been the trigger austerity has and it’s disgusting to know that the likes of Owen Jones did not vote against this.
He and his like are history I’m certain of that, even their own members hate them.
Thanks Crazycat re Smith and EVEL.
Apologies for being a Pap. Smith and Jones all sound the same to me.
One reason for Trident is so that England, posing as UK, can keep their place at the big boys table called the Security Council.
The just wanna be a big poser with damn all substance.
Owen Smith appears on the scene bidding for the title thickest man on Earth when Woody turns up to snatch it from his grasp.
Do we really have to explain the obscenity of nuclear weapons or their relevance in practical terms in the 21st. Century.
In a joint article for the Guardian, Labour’s shadow defence secretary, Clive Lewis, and Emily Thornberry, promoted from shadow defence to shadow foreign secretary following mass resignations from Labour’s frontbench, said the vote was “shameful” and “a political game”, when parliament could have been discussing the Nice attacks and the coup in Turkey.
“There is nothing new in this debate – a vote in principle was agreed in 2007 – and nothing whatsoever will happen as a result,” they write. “It is being held simply to sow further divisions inside the Labour party. The Tories know that those with strongly-held principles on either side of this debate will vote with their consciences, and the media will turn that into a fresh Labour crisis.” Guardian
Is this true is the vote tomorrow just a political stunt?
This Trident vote is a contemptible trick. That’s why we are abstaining
Parliament will decide on Monday if the UK’s nuclear submarine fleet will be replaced. But it’s simply a ludicrous exercise in political game-playing
As the world reels from the Nice massacre, on Monday parliament should be expressing our solidarity with France and discussing what we need to do to protect our own citizens from similar attacks. We should also be debating how to stop Turkey’s government using the weekend’s events as justification to increase repression of free speech and democratic opposition.
But instead, the government will spend Monday turning national security into a political game. A seven-hour debate will be held, not to ask parliament what should be done to fight the current threats of extremism and instability but on whether, in principle, Britain should have four new nuclear submarines ready to use in 30 years’ time.
There is nothing new in this debate – a vote in principle was agreed in 2007 – and nothing whatsoever will happen as a result. It doesn’t authorise any new funding, or establish any new mechanisms for the delivery or oversight of the programme. Guardian
‘Tom Watson argues that we can’t afford not to replace our nuclear deterrent
Tomorrow’s Trident vote is taking place even though parliament has already made the funds available to renew our nuclear deterrent. So this is little more than partisan political game-playing from the Tories.’ Observer.
@Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 2:02 pm:
“Quite the thing that, yet your are determined to plough headlong into another referendum that you will lose.”
What evidence do you offer for that conclusion, Woody?
But they will win another referendum, Woody. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that can prevent it.
Do you know the quotation of Victor Hugo that states:-
” … I wouldn’t be so sure that they would get rid of the nuclear base”
Please yourself about that, and you are entitled to hold that opinion, Woody. Thing is that the Scottish parliament is overwhelmingly opposed to nuclear arms in Scotland.
Other facts speak for themselves. There is only a single Tory MP elected to Westminster from Scotland, There is only a single Labour MP elected from Scotland to Westminster. The rest are opposed to nuclear arms.
Could you repeat the rest of your diatribe, Woody? In reasonable English, or even in Lallans Scots, Scottish Standard English or perhaps the Gaelic? I’m dreadfully sorry but I couldn’t make sense of what you were attempting to impart to us.
@ crazycat – I was just quoting Owen Smith’s opening remarks in the first 18 secs. “I believe that the world has got more insecure more volatile over the last few years”. So our nuclear weapons haven’t made the world safer.
Maybe he could think about why the world is more volatile and insecure. Could our aggressive attacks on Arab countries have provoked them to retaliate? Did he also vote to bomb Syria?
Corbyn opposes this madness but, of course, he wants to get rid of him.
I hope the Scottish people take note of tomorrow’s vote and resolve to rid ourselves of this plague.
Surely the prospect of Donald Trump in the Whitehouse should make even the most ardent fan of WMD slightly worried?
He plans to increase the US defence budget and seems so thirsty for conflict that it seems madness to have anything associated with the US military on our soil.
Are the UK government still in thrall to the US even after Chilcot?
Britain’s Weapon of Mass Destruction
link to banthebomb.org
Capella
Good point!
Every Scottish MP with the exception of David Mundell is opposed to Trident.
Ruth Davidson in her Mail on Sunday article claims that all the MPs except David Mundell have got it wrong because polls say people in Scotland want Trident.
It’s quite weird that all these pro-Trident voters didn’t vote for more pro-Trident tories?
From The Times:
On Labour feuding, she cackled: “Labour is still fumbling with its flies while the Tories are enjoying their postcoital cigarette, after withdrawing our massive Johnson. Sorry, that’s not even my speech; that’s just a text from Stephen Crabb.”
Ah so it was Stephen Crabb who wrote her script! I thought it might have been Jackson Carlaw! Pretty weird text to send a female colleague.
How true is Tory Ruth’s claim re polls?
link to cnduk.org
link to archive.is
‘Opposition to full renewal is highest in Scotland, the home of the Trident fleet. Some 38 per cent of Scots oppose any form of renewal, while 36 per cent back full renewal and 26 per cent favour non-nuclear submarines.’
Papko: “Yet Scottish nationalism is civic and English nationalism is all blood and soil.”
Absolutely.
We offered continued integration with England but under self governance. We do not want to govern England, nor turn it into our weekend holiday resort and playground, or steal its chickens from the coup.
We can defend England if attacked but decide not to join it in wars abroad we think illegal or unwise. We have no imperialist ambitions. A country too wee, too poor and too feckless isn’t going to take to the boats and pillage Sweden, now is it? Our gunboat will be too busy protecting our oil wells and fishing territories.
Listen – know thine enemy: do you think you could turn your energies to protesting about all of England’s legal off-shore refuges? There are many and varied. That way might return some fat taxes to England, taxes to alleviate England’s faltering NHS. The EU had just voted to ban offshore bases when England dumped the EU.
You’ll get nothing out of Scotland by spitting at it for being assertive about its civil rights. No taxation without representation….
A Long Read
link to theguardian.com
@ Papsqueeke
Now we’ve just gotten rid of the Woodlouse talking his England domination crap, are you made of sterner stuff do you think
Just because you have more people in one country doesn’t mean that gives you any right to control another when that other rejects your control
Get the point Papsqueek Scotland doesn’t like what you say and what you do and what you are, so you are rejected
That means take NO for an answer and take care of your own country, if your loyalty is to England that’s fine and dandy and as it should be and good luck to you with it
Half of my family is English and while they don’t agree with me they have at least learned one thing
Scotland’s affairs has become none of their business as I hope very soon that England’s will be none of mine
Maybe one day the Welsh might have a proper say in their land too or the Irish manage to sort their differences
The point as I’m sure you must be grasping by now is the Independence movement in Scotland is trying to do something FOR our country
What you and your kind do is preach AGAINST a peoples rights instead of FOR something
That makes you unacceptable and you stand for nothing
As do all Unionists
The UK holds about 1.4% of the world’s nuclear warheads
Rancid The Graun’s got a thing on it
Numbers of nukes by country. So much for START.
80
Israel
120
India
130
Pakistan
215
UK
260
China
300
France
7,000
US
7,300
Retired*
Reserve/non-deployed
Russia
Guardian Graphic | Source: Federation of American Scientists May 2016 estimate. *Awaiting dismantlement
England can easily stash Trident on the south coast. French Trident’s sub base is in Brest, which is much the same terrain and geology as the Devon coast. Coulport’s meant to be massive though.
TeamGB nuclear holocaust, be part of it, 1.4% of it.
link to tinyurl.com
Interesting one where people in Scotland are asked a different question from people in England
I wonder if this is the poll Tory Ruth was referring to.
Owen Smith,Woody and their like will survive a nuclear attack
along with the rest of the Cockroaches. 😉
Postulating the way to avoid stockpiling nuclear bombs is to stockpile more nuclear bombs is clearly deranged.
That argument advocates a balance of terror.
But no one can tell if a first strike will stop retaliation, or even be a timely or accurate first strike
After a thermonuclear war the only question to ask is:
Will the survivors envy the dead?
Nice round up on why planet toryboy’s using a £200bn weapon to nuke Labour.
link to archive.is
Fallout girl Kez says YES to Trident, SLabour says No, Westminster Lab say YES, constituent Labour say Maybe, although BBC Scotland freak show piled in with Kez to nuke the SNP last year.
“Kezia Dugdale: Trident savings ‘can’t be spent 12 ways’
Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale says any money saved by not renewing Trident “can’t be spent 12 ways” unlike the position set out by the SNP.”
All the UKOK gits have their own shithead agenda with UKOK nuclear war.
Nicely put Grouse Beater at 8:01pm
There are 8 nuclear armed nations USA,Russia,France,UK,Isreal,India,Pakistan, and North Korea out of 140 odd at the UN Who do we deter? Why are we in the minority club of 8? Should we be?
Interesting question posted in the comments of
link to archive.is
“Warmongering politicians are the ‘clear and present danger’. They should be removed from power immediately, their authority taken from them.”
More here: link to wp.me
@ Capella
I know you were quoting Owen Smith – I was agreeing with you that he was being stupid.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Labour: putting the fist in pacifist.
Well, as Kevin Hague tweeted 6 hours ago (about 15.00 17th July):
link to twitter.com
“we must avoid facts & figures because voters understanding economic reality is unhelpful to our cause“.
Perhaps that’s why he hasn’t published my reply to his blog, which I posted on the 16th July early morning – more than a day earlier than his tweet, my reply to his second reply to me:
“dear yesindyref2
you really should read my reply to you above – and get back to me after you’ve read the linked report (and had time to digest what the word “effective” means in my post)
i’m kidding obviously – you won’t read the report because you’re clearly far too committed to indy at any cost to risk having your faith challenged by inconvenient facts
15 July 2016 at 11:45 ”
link to web.archive.org
So here it is, just in case he “lost” it:
——————————
“Well, I came here looking for “fiscal transfer”, after seeing it used a few times in forums for a figure of £15 bn (including one that said from England to Scotland), to see if this blog was its origin. Yours at least is down to £9 bn, though also incorrect.
Saw that blog entry and paper (you’re deflecting to) weeks ago thanks, would take twice as long to pull it apart as it took to write it.
Anyway, for this: “Scotland currently receives an effective fiscal transfer from the rest of the UK of over £9bn pa”.
“Scotland currently receives”. How do you know? GERS 2014-15 came out in March 2016, 2015-15 isn’t due until March 2017, and we’re now into 2016-17!
“an effective fiscal transfer”. No such thing, there is either a fiscal transfer or there isn’t.
“from the rest of the UK”. No, fiscal transfers in the UK happen between central government and devolved governments, or vice versa. There is no mechanism for transfers between devolved governments, and England doesn’t even have one, nor does the rUK.
“pa”. No, there is no regular figure, it can vary from year to year.
On top of that, there is no official published figure I could find for any year for the “fiscal transfer”.
The UK Government in its anti-independence white paper – an equivalent of part of the Scottish Government’s pro-Independence White paper – both with a corresponding bias – has this:
“Fiscal transfers are automatic across the UK, which supports higher welfare and pensions spending in Scotland“. (also techincally inaccurate, nevermind)
Take a look via PESA at 2014 for instance and you get UK pensions + Welfare = £256 billion, Scotland = £22 billion. £22 billion is approximately the same per capita for Scotland as £256 billion for the UK, so according to the UK Gov’s definition of “fiscal transfer”, the “fiscal transfer” for 2014 was a big fat £0 – either way.
That’s why I quite kindly suggested you look up what “fiscal transfer” actually means.
Come back to me if you find another official definition of “fiscal transfer” that suits your £9 billion figure.”
——————————
I guess my comment is unhelpful to his “cause”. Whatever that is.
@Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm:
“I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.”
Err! ‘Scuse me, Woody, but what country do you refer to?
It cannot be Scotland as the majority of Scots are against nuclear weapons and even against nuclear power generators.
If you actuarially imagine our country to be The United Kingdom”, could I request that you sound out that title, “United Kingdom”. You know like they used to teach the children to read?
K-I-N-D-O-M spells Kingdom. It does not spell out C-O-U-N-T-R-Y.
There is a very good reason why it is named The United Kingdom and that reason is because it actually is an agreed union of only two, equally sovereign, formerly independent Kingdoms.
There are the signatures of only the two kingdoms extant in the British Isles in 1706/7 when the treaty that gave birth to the United Kingdom was signed.
Now here is a stone cold fact – there is not a single mention of the words, “country”, or, “Countries”, in the Treaty of Union document and neither word is mentioned in the two former Kingdoms parliamentary Acts of Union.
Yes the United Kingdom does indeed contain four countries but the Kingdom of England annexed the Principality of Wales in 1284 by the Statute of Rhuddlan and the Kingdom of Ireland Parliament passed, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the English Kings head in 1542.
By the way – regarding expertise of nuclear matters. I was employed by the Admiralty for 50 years in Rosyth Dockyard.
When the first RN nuclear submarine was on its way to Rosyth Dockyard I went out with the Pilot Cutter and boarded HMS Dreadnought by the May Island and sailed in with her to the Dockyard.
That was because I built the first complex safety system of supplies for docking a nuclear submarine during refit, repair or refuelling and I needed to fit the connectors to couple it to the safety systems.
Later I was involved in the installation of the CCTV systems used during these dockyard operations. Later still I was transferred into the RADIAC Lab. That is :- “RAdiationDetectionIndicationAndComputation.
It involved the calibrating, testing, repair and maintenance of the various equipment involved in detecting all forms of radiation and the radiaton’s effects upon living things. That was both in the Lab/workshop and on board HM Ships.
So, Woody, you could say I do know a thing or three about nuclear weaponry and submarines.
Put it this way – you cannot understand how the instruments work electronically unless you understand at least a good deal of Nuclear Physics and even a bit of Quantum Physics along with your electronics theory.
You cannot calibrate, for example, a Geiger Counter without being able to handle safely the highest to the lowest radiation of all types that the instrument can detect.
Incidentally we also did Chemical & Biological Warfare detectors.
Guess how we could managed to calibrate them without knowing and handling biological and chemical warfare samples? We covered all RN gear from Newcastle to the Northern Isles and also did a bit of work for the Army, Air Force and on occasions even the Scottish National Museums and Hospitals.
It is illegal, and very dangerous, to use uncelebrated instruments.
Ruby says:
17 July, 2016 at 6:19 pm
Papko
Can I ask you what it is you are trying to achieve by posting on Wings?
@Ruby
I enjoy reading the rev’s articles and the interesting points raised.I am interested in Scottish Independence and this site is dedicated to it.
I read the comments and when I see what I consider an anomaly I ask for a clarification.
I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example.
I am not a “Troll”, as having a differing viewpoint, is what living in a democracy is all about.
Woody is arguing from a different POV it seems, nor do I have strong opinions on Trident, I accept most of the arguments here for its phasing out.
Being outvoted form time to time is part of living in a democracy.
Did some bugger in Australia Prof. W. Mitchel or other, no wind up daein that. Gie money fur ordinary folk instead of the Banks and arms companies.
link to bilbo.economicoutlook.net.
Deja vu . There is one somewhere
I see you’re still here Pap and you think we live in a democracy yet 58 of 59 of our MPs say NO to WMDs, the Scottish parliament votes overwhelmingly NO to WMDs and that is the representation of Scotland’s wishes yet Westminster says well actually we don’t care what you want Scotland you’re having them and you’re also paying for them AND we’ll transport them right through the centre of your most populated city at night by truck whenever we want AND you’ll just have to put up with the over 100 radiation leaks into the Clyde as well
Do you see what irritates Scots about that, because if you don’t or if you don’t care you prove the point as to why we want rid of you people
Like I said Unionist thugs are rejected
@Yesindyref2
Yer a rogue. 😀
@yesindyref2
Hague’s tweet that you quote isn’t about a “we” that includes him, or his cause (as your last sentence implies you think).
It’s meant to be a description of Peter Bell’s way of thinking.
It matches his last sentence to you.
I assumed you realized that, right up until the very end. Then I wasn’t so sure.
Like I said Unionist thugs are rejected
😉 civic to the last Dr.Jim.
I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.
Everyone in Scotland has a vote in the GE, elect MPS and they go to join the other 650, as our country is divided into constituencies, and the majority in any particular constituency gets to elect their MP.
(Normally over last 40 years the Govt in power is voted for by 35- 45% of the electorate).
Ruby,
My experience of Papko is, he’s not an ankle biter or an incessant yapper. He’s curious to learn and doesn’t repeat one line opinion moronically as a troll will when he gets replies that answer his point. You’ll note he tends to move on. I’ve never found him unintelligent.
Got to sign off soon – I begin Monday at 8am filling 280 tons of 200-250mm rock into 200 gabion baskets piled one upon the other, to shore up my hillside, or ‘brae’ as I should call it in Scotland. (Gabions: a Roman invention.)
I see it as a metaphor for Scotland protecting itself.
Now where did I put my steel capped boots?
Papko says:
17 July, 2016 at 9:08 pm
I read the comments and when I see what I consider an anomaly I ask for a clarification.
I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example.
Ruby replies
Ha! Ha! Ha! That is a cracker!
You are asking for clarification on behalf of people you imagine are reading these comments but are afraid to comment themselves!
Do you hear their voices in your head? Do you imagine them as Unionists or Independence supporters?
OK so I know what you have to offer these readers you imagine are too scared to comment what do you have to offer people who are not afraid to comment? Why should I read your posts?
You say you are not a ‘troll’ but are you a wind-up merchant?
BERKSHIRE. JOABS. LOBBYISTS. JIST OAR THE ROAD FAE WHEESHTMINSTER.
ARMS LOBBYISTS including ROYALTY. SAY NO MORE.!!
ROYALTY ARE BIG SHAREHOLDERS IN NUKES AMONG OTHERS
@crazycat
That wasn’t the point of my posting – or attempted posting on the blog, I just added that to my posting here because it was there – and pertinent to his not putting up my comment.
@Macart
I try my best 🙂
I’d have liked to have had a go at other blog postings, but they’re so convoluted, so long (and boring), and he switches in and out of total figures and per capita figures and back (obviously not a scientist or mathemetician), I’d have had to write about 20 pages to demolish them. This was an easy target.
This from Der Spiegel:
“Neither London nor Paris is playing a central role in the current debate over disarmament. France and Britain make the point that the United States and Russia must disarm themselves to the level of the two European countries before any need will arise for further negotiations.”
This situation is highly unlikely to say the least!
—-
Meanwhile, back in the real world:
Russia poised to unleash “Son Of Satan” ICBM.
It is, according to the Russians, “capable of delivering up to 12 warheads via its multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) payload at a range of 10,000km.”
“The RS-28 boasts “an array of advanced antimissile countermeasures” plus “higher speed performance”, designed to thwart any anti-ballistic missile (ABM) system.”
The missile is, “capable of wiping out parts of the earth the size of Texas or France”.
Russia hopes to completely replace the ageing R-36M2 – of which it has deployed 58 since 1988 – by 2020.
So just these 696 warheads alone are able to lay waste a whole continent.
—-
Russia has always kept pace with US technology and has often been ahead: First man-made satellite to orbit Earth: Sputnik, First human to orbit Earth and return safely: Gagarin.
Russia also possesses the record for the biggest explosion ever produced by humans. The Tsar Bomba, detonated on October 30, 1961, remains the most powerful man-made explosion in human history.
Get this: “One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 kilometres (170 mi). The heat from the explosion could have caused third-degree burns 100 km (62 mi) away from ground zero.
A shock wave was observed in the air at Dikson settlement 700 kilometres (430 mi) away; windowpanes were partially broken to distances of 900 kilometres (560 mi). Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland.”
That’ll be the same, non-nuclear armed Norway then.
The nuclear arms race really is utter madness.
o/t but quite amusing and worth bearing in mind:
link to archive.is
We of course are wise to such tricks.
Grouse Beater says:
17 July, 2016 at 9:44 pm
Ruby,
My experience of Papko is, he’s not an ankle biter or an incessant yapper.
Ruby replies
You obviously know him better than I do. I read one of his posts and decided to waste no further time reading any more. He went onto my Barbara Carland list.
I normally have a one strike and your out policy however today I was totally bored with the debate about Labour idiots so I decided to wind-up the trolls.
I didn’t find his/her answer to my question as to why he/she is posting here very convincing.
It is illegal, and very dangerous, to use ***uncelebrated***
instruments.
Damn that bloody spool chocker!
Grouse Beater says: 17 July, 2016 at 9:44 pm:
” … Now where did I put my steel capped boots?”
Probably, Grouse Beater, it is next to your steel crash helmet or even on the other side of your tinfoil hat.
In the event of a thermonuclear strike on a single nation that attracts no retaliation, here are the recuperation statistics (not recovery, recuperation) as calculated by the US Defence Department, expressed in hundreds of thousands dead:
DEAD………….. ECONOMIC RECUPERATION
2,000,000……… 1 year
5,000,000……… 2 years
10,000,000…….. 5 years
20,000,000…….. 10 years
40,000,000…….. 20 years
80,000,000…….. 50 years
160,000,000……. 100 years
You can bet not a single British Trident-luvvin politician knows those figures if asked.
If the Rev will allow me, not as well penned as his article on the same subject but I’m trying to get it out to as many as we can..
link to facebook.com
@ yesindyref2
Thanks for the clarification. It was your reference to “his cause, whatever that is” that perplexed me. It’s now clear that was a general remark, not aimed specifically at his tweet.
Papko says:
17 July, 2016 at 9:31 pm
I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.
I was an engineer in Barr & Stroud for over 35 years, it does not take a lot to sink a submarine especially at depth. With the advent of autonomous deep water drones it becomes a much easier task. Trident is obsolete now and in the future more so, flogging a dead horse is the mark of an idiot or a lunatic, take your pick!
I wish for my descendants to grow up in a free and fair Independent Scotland. As for England/Westminster/Elite in their collapse of the empireas they call it, they are welcome to it, they will be remembered as thieving. murdering barstewards.
@Ruby
You are asking for clarification on behalf of people you imagine are reading these comments but are afraid to comment themselves!
Do you hear their voices in your head? Do you imagine them as Unionists or Independence supporters?
Dear Ruby
There are 300k unique visitors to this website every month ? (I am sure the REV mentioned something on those lines)
Yet only a few dozen regular commentators (say 50?),why do the other visitors not post?
I say because they may be too shy, be they Yoons or Nats, (300k is the popn of Fife approx,how do I know what every person in Fife thinks),I don’t, I just guess, and equally so do you.
Ruby, if we were meeting in a Church Hall in Kirkcaldy say ,and people were speaking and discussing a topic, and someone asked for a a clarification or made a point seldom made.
And the other people in the Hall asked “why are you commenting, speaking even, you are a Wind up merchant etc”
Would you describe such a meeting as “civic”.
Would you say that being able to speak freely without fear of intimidation or mockery is important in a free country.
or would you prefer silence, would you rather one view point was heard, and some folk looked at the floor sullenly.
You’d do well to think of them that listen silently, they have a vote like everyone else.
Most cost effective way to save pennies on Trident?
The Tories have a massive Johnson in Europe now, he is basically a WMD, I reckon you could buy him a rubber gimp mask and an orange for a lot less than the cost of Trident.
The Israelis will tell America what the UK will do regarding Trident, we have NO SAY in the matter.
Ask our southern cousins if they would still replace it if it was being kept on the Thames?
I know the answer.
Indy Ref 2
Tick Tock.
You do have to laugh at these Yoon clowns with their our country crap, they used to think that about other countries they stuck their flag in and called it theirs until those countries threw them out kicking and screaming
America was a big one if I remember rightly, those guys fair gave the Empire a right good kicking and then learned how to be just as obnoxious afterwards, so much so the “British empire” sucks up to everything the Americans tell THEM now (you will have WMDs you will you will) OK then
Poodle springs to mind there
I wonder if they told the Yanks they were being blood and soil Nationalists when they were trying to hold on to that country, I know they told the same story to the Irish
It’s amazing how the rhetoric never changes and kinda boils down to If you won’t do as you’re told you’re lesser mortals and you’re misbehaving and you don’t know what you do because we know better
And yet every country who’s dumped the wonderful UK hasn’t ever asked to be let back in, not one e.v.e.r
I wonder why not eh
@crazycat
No, thanks for pointing it out. I did see it was after retweeting a quote from Peter Bell, but tacked it on to the posting here. Just as well I didn’t refer to it though in say a comment on his blog, as it leaves an easy denial and total evasion “yesindyref2, read my tweet, that wasn’t the point I was making you fool”. But of couse it was “smart-arse” incidental to the point I was making. I must do better!
O/T
Hi! Anyone know if there was news in the court from earlier in the week?
Labour MP Marie Rimmer on trial over ‘referendum assault’
Ruby: “He went onto my Barbara Carland list.” 🙂
O/T
sorry, have to share. two loony yoonys at work shouting their mouths off when NS is on Andrew Married show. you know…’once in a life time…jimmy kranky…better together…rangers back in the league….immigrants are a problem’.
Problem for them is this. 8 other guys in room, all keeping their own counsel. Two years ago, with milder language, it was roles reversed.
Come what MAY.
derek
Very interesting & informative article.
@ahundredthidiot –
Hang in there.
‘He who laughs last…’
😉
Papko honey you are rather late to the reality – many of us are here cos the nice clever ones make us welcome and answer our questions.
Papko says:
17 July, 2016 at 9:31 pm
I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.
In reply.
I was an engineer with Barr & Stroud (Suppliers to the Royal Navy for over 100 years). It does not take a lot to sink a submarine especially at depth, with the advent of autonomous deep water drones which are speedily evolving. Therefore Trident (Vanguard Class Submarines) at present is obsolete and it’s Successor Class Submarines are obsolete even before they are designed.
So it’s bit like flogging a dead horse, if you do it you’re either an idiot or a lunatic, take you pick !
ian B
I hear you. I don’t think we’ll be laughing though, not initially. Times will be challenging, but worth it in the medium to longer term.
We have too much going for us which is probably why UK wants to hang on to us.
I think, for me, the most depressing thing is that our fellow Scot
fat fingers, shit phone
Papko
Sorry you’ve lost me.
When someone in a Church Hall in Kirkcaldy asks for clarification is he/she asking on behalf of the other attendees who he/she imagines are too shy to ask for clarification?
You ask:
‘Would you say that being able to speak freely without fear of intimidation or mockery is important in a free country.’
That depends on what the person is saying and what you mean by intimidation & mockery. I would say people have the right to boo someone or give them a slow hand clap if they think they are talking rubbish or being highly offensive.
GA Ponsonby Has to be one of the two most devastating critics of the BBC, Challenged by Prof Robertson
Their focus on State Propaganda allows the Rev to blast the wider Corporate Media
link to indyref2.scot
Wish we had them as a separate column on wings
….is partially brainwashed
Grouse Beater says:
17 July, 2016 at 10:45 pm
Ruby: “He went onto my Barbara Carland list.” 🙂
Ruby replies
I hope you’ve got your jammies & nightcap on and you are tucked up in bed preparing yourself for a day of hard labour shifting 280 tons of rock!
Is it Edinburgh rock? You might need to call on the Rev to help you shift that amount of candy.
“Nicola Sturgeon will consider holding a second referendum on Scottish independence in 2017 if the Westminster government starts to leave the EU without settling the UK-wide approach promised by Theresa May.
Asked on the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland programme about her position should article 50 be triggered in December – as proposed by the newly appointed Brexit minister, David Davis – without the Scottish government being “on board”, Sturgeon said that was why she was making preparations for a second independence referendum.
“Of course at that point that would be an option and a decision that I would have to consider,” she said.”
Let’s hope the weather is great that month!
Night all.
@ Grouse Beater 9-44pm Have you Checked Your Feet ? Really like the links you put up.
I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example”
Paps, the voice of the people, the peoples Paps, Paps, peoples champion, Paps to the people you great big skid mark.
All that does is show how bought and paid for tory shyters and brain-washer’s all give themselves the same “peoples champ” tags. Where I’m from its the neo fascist “Voice of the North” Press and journal but all these spivy outfits do it to. Daily Record, Scotland’s champion, rancid The Grain, Facts are sacred, they’re really not in the least for that crew but its got that cheezee sanctimony upper middle class spivs think suits them.
The Peoples Paps. Forward with Paps. Paps is. Are you? No Paps, No Comment. Sunday isn’t Sunday without the Sunday Papko. Paps you can use. All the Paps that’s fit to Pap.
May the Paps be with you Papko.
is capitalism a sin?
is Communism an option?
Shit. my jury is out.
or is there in an inbetweeny?
OT
You’ve got to admire Alex Salmond’s style. Interviewed by the Daily Mail he said that Cameron should put Andy Murray forward in his retirement Honours list. He said Andy Murray would be “the most popular Scottish knight since Sir William Wallace”.
Papko, oh Papko.
Doesn’t come across as a troll to me. Nor even a Unionist, just someone perhaps with an open inquisitive mind. Curses!
The likely fallout map for one accidental Trident missile warhead detonation at Faslane. (assuming prevailing Westerly wind.)
link to i51.photobucket.com
@ crazycat – I got it. 🙂
Just wanted to get the quote right as he is so irrational. Maybe that’s a marketing technique!
Boules in the mooth Nelson ? What a wank !
How many boabys did he sook to slither up the greasy pole ?
More than a few, by the sound of it.
Just another erse with no part to play in an independent Scotland.
link to fogonazos.es
Cadogan Enright
Agree. Also Paul Kavanagh.
@Papko 9.31
You surely understand the democracy deficit you have described there? Scotland taking all the risks, the contamination, the danger, with no say?
Scotland can never hold sway in Westminster with 59, yet EVEL was introduced to further cut back on any say.
Whatever Scotland has, or doesn’t have, should be decided by the people who live here.
300 years of this ‘union’ and where are the benefits? I accept there are unionists who are sentimental, but for people like me its about social justice, fairness, democracy nearer to the people, and just plain logic.
I don’t often explain it, and we are portrayed as rabid nats, or romantic Braveheart types, and they exist too, but to many it’s about living in a more just society, that we help shape.
The red line in the sand for Nicola is very simple.
If Brexit talks do not incorporate, up front, a serious attempt to see how Scotland can remain in the EU, then she withdraws from those talks.
End of.
Hi Chick.
I played around with that web site a couple of years ago. Good that it lets you choose wind direction, for example.
Here’s an example I came up with:-
link to dundee3js.freeforums.org
link to nuclearsecrecy.com
Apologies, “CHIC”!
8=)
I have been in nuclear bunker command centers. When you see the graphs for working out the fall out according to size of war head and wind. It’s bloody scary when you see it laid out on a map table.
You would think we would have learnt from the war in Japan and the various nuclear accidents.
Once one missile is in the air there is no going back. It ends with two men crawling out of a shell hole bayonet in hand trying to kill each other.
Apptely known as MAD. Mutually assured destruction.
Paps, the voice of the people, the peoples Paps, Paps, peoples champion, Paps to the people you great big skid mark
Thx for the measured, balanced response @Heed tracker
You do have a way with words.
With Independence , Scotland will need a an official escort for foreign dignitaries, when they arrive at Holyrood.
Put a Sioux Indian headdress on and skip along in front of them with your cheerful chants.
😉
Having Nuclear Weapons doesn’t appear to be making France any safer.
Valerie says:
17 July, 2016 at 11:53 pm
@Papko 9.31
You surely understand the democracy deficit you have described there? Scotland taking all the risks, the contamination, the danger, with no say?
With all respect Valerie, I don’t see the deficit you speak of, as everyone in the UK has the same vote equally, that is cast every 5 years
Were each nation to be treated equally, then you would only need one representative for each nation, and they alone would speak for each one.
Our FM would speak for the Scots, but she could still be outvoted by the other 3.
I can agree with much of the arguments against Trident as espoused on this thread, its obsolete etc , but If I am out voted, I lump it.
Just like Brexit, or the referendum on PR, we have to respect the majority for democracy to work.
‘With Independence , Scotland will need a an official escort for foreign dignitaries, when they arrive at Holyrood.
Put a Sioux Indian headdress on and skip along in front of them with your cheerful chants.’
I think I’d better put him back on my Barbara Cartland list.
300 years of this ‘union’ and where are the benefits? I accept there are unionists who are sentimental, but for people like me its about social justice, fairness, democracy nearer to the people, and just plain logic.
I think the country is great and everything is fine, but if its not enough for you. I wonder what the solution can be, or indeed if it can be solved.
I don’t often explain it, and we are portrayed as rabid nats, or romantic Braveheart types, and they exist too, but to many it’s about living in a more just society, that we help shape.
I totally respect your views Valerie, by asking questions and clarifying, I hope to reconcile them.
‘With all respect Valerie, I don’t see the deficit you speak of, as everyone in the UK has the same vote equally, that is cast every 5 years ‘
Definitely going back on my Barbara Cartland list.
link to tinyurl.com
A video for Ruth Davidson, David Mundell, Kezia Dugdale, Owen Smith & all the other pro Trident politicians to watch before they say their prayers and go to bed!
Fascinating interview on R4 Westminster Hour tonight. link to bbc.co.uk
listen in at about 43 minutes in.
Trident is NOT an independent deterrent;
USA knows where our subs. are at any time through Waterspace system and can destroy Trident missiles with their extremely powerful Aegis anti-ballistic missiles which are currently on 30 warships in the Atlantic. They own Aldermaston and provide us with explosive material for nuclear warheads.
Dr Dan Plesh of London University said that no British PM could be confident, even at very short notice, of firing Trident without America preventing it either through a cyber attack, physical interruption of communications, hunting down our submarines as they know pretty much where they are or by firing Aegis missiles at them.
It’s not a question of whether a British PM could order it to be fired more a case of whether America would stop it!
I tried a longer post but it doesn’t seem to have appeared. Apologies if the longer version shows up later.
I find it interesting Brian montieth is suggesting the next indyref will not be a yes no question but rather the more neutral remain very leave.
That seems nonsensical and designed to confuse. A positive vote for indy would be to both leave one union and remain in the other and a negative indy vote would be to leave one and remain in the other.
So I would suggest that a simple yes v no option on the proposition would be much more sensible and clear for the electorate.
Lots of egos and alter egos on here tonight. Wingers and those who disagree but clearly have found a home here and enjoy this site.
Peace to all- we are not killing each other so I can take a little sledging and dispute.
Tam out x
Thing to remember is that trident comes out of the defense budget. It doesn’t have its own budget. So the conventional forces suffer shortages because of it. So it not really money to be used on anything else except defence. Then the the forces would actually have the gear they need and decent facility’s.
@ Papko
Within the last couple of days, I’ve seen a statement, attributed to the MoD, that Trident is too dangerous to be based in England.
I don’t have a proper reference for this, so have not been able to assess how reliable it is, but if it’s genuine, are you really ok with the implications of it?
If it’s too dangerous to be based in England, it’s too dangerous full stop, and I’m not happy having it foisted on me by MPs from England (or Wales or Northern Ireland).
I understand that you are regarding the UK as a whole, and if it is renewed, it has to be put somewhere, but even the MoD seems to be admitting that it does not matter if Scotland is endangered, so long as England isn’t. (A stupid attitude, since fall-out doesn’t know where the border is. Maybe it’s really only the south-east it’s too dangerous for, but there would be knock-on effects even there.)
Does that really not annoy you? It’s just democracy?
“Labour can’t hurt anybody with a number puzzle”.
Except themselves. Reference Jackie Baillie.
So when I was at school back in the 90’s my mate and I set out to do a project on what would happen in the event of a nuclear attack on Scotland and the UK.
After gaining as much information as we could and reading up about it, we both decided not to do the project as it was one of the scariest things we had ever read about.
Our school library also had a book , gifted from a school in Hirohima that showed the effects of radiation on people (Women and children) that made us sick.
I really don’t think anyone can really understand how truly horrifying these weapons are and even building and maintaining them should be seen as a crime against humanity. They aren’t precision weapons…the Mass part in the WMD gives that away.
Apologies for a link to the Daily Mail but the images they have are pretty specific.
link to dailymail.co.uk