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The Labour case for Trident

Posted on July 17, 2016 by

This is prospective Labour leader Owen Smith on the Andrew Marr show this morning, explaining why he’ll be one of the 65% of Labour MPs voting in favour of the renewal of Trident next week:

Let’s just see if we can get this straight once and for all.

1. Labour wants to spend £200bn on a new Trident system so that it can then scrap it as soon as possible in multilateral disarmament talks, (incurring billions of pounds more in decommissioning costs), with a supposed long-term goal of completely eliminating all nuclear weapons on the planet.

2. That’s a bit like buying a Ferrari to replace your Ford Focus because you want to reduce carbon emissions by putting it in a car crusher. But weirdly, the last time a Labour government attempted to bring about some multilateral reductions, the idea of total disarmament was completely ruled out as “non-negotiable”.

browntrident

3. Owen Smith tells us that we need Trident because the world has become a more dangerous place. (We’ll generously gloss over the finer details of exactly how he plans to use nukes to defeat ISIS.) This, presumably, is why successive Labour and Tory governments have reduced the capability of the existing Trident fleet by almost half, first from 200 warheads to 160 and then from 160 to 120.

4. Labour wants the UK to have the strongest possible nuclear arsenal in order to use it as a bargaining chip in disarmament talks at some unspecified future date. The UK’s 120 warheads represent approximately 0.7% of the world’s current stockpile, so Labour’s position must be that it can leverage those 0.7% in order to bring about the removal of the other 99.3%.

Labour, then, is telling us that for every one warhead the UK decommissions, it can persuade the rest of the world to give up 142. We commend their ambition, and can only imagine that Labour are AMAZING at poker.

(We’re not aware of any cuts by other powers as a quid pro quo for the UK’s recent reductions from 200 warheads to 120, incidentally.)

5. Labour MPs and MSPs in constituencies with nuclear weapons installations, such as Jackie Baillie in West Dunbartonshire and John Woodcock in Barrow, simultaneously insist that the reason the weapons must be retained is to protect astronomical numbers of supposed jobs reliant on them.

Yet at the same time we’re told that the ultimate objective is to get rid of the weapons. So the goal is to keep the jobs in order to work diligently towards losing them again, rather than using the money to create jobs which would be sustainable in the long term.

That’s a bit like investing all your savings in Betamax video recorders the day after the DVD player is invented.

6. Even if we accept the wildest estimates of such MPs regarding the number of jobs reliant on Trident – which range from around 500, according to the MoD, up to absurdly inflated claims of over 20,000 – the lifetime cost of the system is expected to be in excess of £200 billion. That’s £10m per job over the 40-year period, or £250,000 per job per year.

We suspect that if you offered every employee dependent on Trident £125,000 a year for life to sit at home and watch box sets of Game Of Thrones, they’d snap your hand off. But instead Labour’s policy is to spend twice that much while ensuring that the employees get paid much less, and while trying its hardest to destroy their jobs.

So, in summary: get rid of nuclear weapons by buying more of them, in order to protect jobs by trying to get rid of them, because the world has become more dangerous so we have to give our weapons away. Have we missed anything?

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    1. 17 07 16 12:59

      The Labour case for Trident | speymouth

    611 to “The Labour case for Trident”

    1. Vestas says:

      You’d have to be clinically insane to believe anything Oily Owen says. He embodies pretty much every unpleasant characteristic you can imagine in a politician.

      Venal self-serving scum doesn’t even begin to cover it….

    2. Macart says:

      Nope! That pretty much sums it up.

      They want to run the UK you know. Scary or what?

    3. heedtracker says:

      3. Smith tells us that we need Trident because the world has become a more dangerous place

      It has and its mostly down to red and blue tory Westminster. Anyway best value for money/bnag for buck option is sticking nuclear missiles on trucks and driving them round and round English cities like London that actually want them. Its no different from stashing Trident nukes in multi billion steel tubes 30 miles from Glasgow and a lot cheaper.

    4. defo says:

      “We suspect that if you offered every employee dependent on Trident £125,000 a year for life to sit at home and watch box sets of Game Of Thrones…”

      £25 k would do it !

      As per, you expose the irreconcilable paradox Stuart.

      Let’s see if Angus and the gang can get it through to some thick headed people tomorrow.

    5. HandandShrimp says:

      Translation

      “We have to renew Trident if that is the advice of the political analysts…first and foremost I want to be elected, everything else is secondary”

    6. Woody says:

      Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up ? I never did understand why so many issues get conflated with independance, they seem pretty separate to me. You can certainly believe in one and not the other.

      The current instability in the world was not “mostly” caused by the last two UK govt at all btw, wtf ?

      Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ? Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc

    7. defo says:

      Woody
      Yes
      Yes
      No.

      Anything else ?

    8. Robert Roddick says:

      I watched these interviews. The Labour Party is in a far greater mess than I could ever have imagined.

    9. Is it even worth discussing Labour lunacy anymore? Nobody is listening to them anymore in Scotland.

    10. Breeks says:

      Labour!

      Bringing ludicrously expensive WMD Weapons of Mass Destruction to a city near you. Especially near you happy campers in Glasgow.

      Viewers in Scotland have their own program, Scottish Labour ludicrously expensive WMD’s, Weapon of Mass Distortion, the BBC, coming to a livingroom near you.

    11. defo says:

      BTW
      A couple of hundred billion will keep the trough topped up for ages. Lots of lovely NEDs.

    12. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      Perfect example of not only having two diametrically opposite positions but articulating them in one interview.

      Serious logic problems.

    13. G H Graham says:

      And the nukes have to be at HM Clyde because it’s a long way from London & we’re Better Together.

      Yes, they could be stored in the south east of England but our constituents would object & since most of the Establishment lives there too, we’re keeping them in Scotland.

      Any questions?

    14. Not much we do not HAVE to know about in your best of all worlds and kindest of unions Woody. Are you wan o those Am happy in poverty UK/FUK. It is so wonderful down there.I believe there is a train there very hour Woody. And nae greetin faced Scots just celebratory english nationalist. The best in the world.

    15. Grouse Beater says:

      More information on aftermath of nuclear war here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1bI

    16. Dr Jim says:

      We must keep nuclear weapons to preserve jobs in Scotland as this could lead to closures of Greggs affecting Jackie Baillie directly

      We all know what’s going to happen The Tories’ll vote for it the Red Tories’ll vote for it the SNP will vote agin it the odd Lib Dum will faff about the Greens’ll vote agin it they’ll all natter all day about morals and poor people and say they’re all sorry to be doing it and it’ll be overwhelmingly carried as usual

      So there you are public they very seriously took all day to vote the way they were going to vote before after and during the debate and who gives a monkeys about what you think

      Coz we know what happens if the public get a vote don’t we
      they might vote to scrap it and just like Brexit they wouldn’t know what to do with the result

      And for the Jeremy Corbyn supporters, if it came down to his deciding vote he’d keep the damn shit and he knows it
      It’s just a lovely and easy position to be the protest party man when you know you’re going to lose so he wears his protest beret and marches with his deluded minions until that whopping great ministerial pension pot’s at it’s highest level so he can retire for the good of the party or his health

      Aah Politics, difficult to work out innit

    17. heedtracker says:

      Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ? Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc

      No.

    18. Tam Jardine says:

      Any idea what the plan is for the 4 vanguards? I mean, it is not as if they could just tie them up in a dock, say, 10 miles from our capital city and leave them there to rust?

    19. Marcia says:

      Don’t faint but from what I read on twitter, Scotland on Sunday’s editorial is anti-Trident renewal.

    20. Chic McGregor says:

      Woody
      “Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up ?”

      Only the ones with human DNA which at last check was 100%.

      Can’t vouch for other parties though.

    21. Tam Jardine says:

      Woody

      Defence is one area in particular you will find there are plenty wingers with extensive knowledge. It is remarkable really.

      As for areas this site’s posters are not total experts in- I’ve yet to see much evidence wingers have knowledge of backing down, giving up or getting back in the box.

    22. Bob Mack says:

      We’re you ever in a toy shop as a child and wanted something really badly ?
      The trick to actually getting it ,was to feign reluctance and express sympathetic views about it’s cost.

      These people have never grown up. They want it, but have to express reluctance to try and satisfy a voting demographic.

    23. Bob Mack says:

      @Woody,

      I consider myself pretty well educated. I have two degrees, but let me tell you, I have learned more on this site than I ever did in daily life. There are plenty of smart and informed people posting on this site. Try absorbing what they tell you.

    24. rongorongo says:

      WRT Trident, I particularly liked Wee Ginger Dog’s likening of the UK’s stance to that of Norma Desmond:
      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/writing-a-prescription-of-our-own/

      Plus Frankie Boyle, of course:
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/17/britain-spend-billions-trident-government-cyber-attack?

      also Ian Jack’s Long Read on Trident:
      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/feb/11/trident-the-british-question

      It is particularly remarkable that Westminster is debating the commissioning of a weapons system that would not go into action for another 12 years – while there is serious debate about whether they would have control over its main base for that many months.

    25. Grouse Beater says:

      Woody: “Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil”

      Do all unionist trolls have to make public their idiocy?

    26. Grouse Beater says:

      A nuclear war is guaranteed universally devastating that the winner is down to the last man standing.

      More here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1bI

    27. Valerie says:

      What a massive tw”t that Labour guy is.

      Labour are so bloody irrelevant for the next decade, they should just broadcast the test card for a few mins. A wee girl with a clown is a fitting tribute.

      Only the Tories, led by May, think this is the ideal time for this vote.

      We are shit on their shoe.

    28. mike cassidy says:

      Frankie Boyle archived

      http://archive.is/aKOmI

    29. Jack Murphy says:

      Trident.A North Britain perspective from Engerland.
      BBC Scotland Politics on-line:-
      “…………….A source close to Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said: “This government was elected on a manifesto to build four ballistic missile submarines to replace the current fleet. We committed to hold a vote and we need to have this now given the time it takes to build and test the submarines.

      “All MPs will have to decide whether to gamble with our national security. The SNP will be voting to weaken our security and to close Faslane, Scotland’s biggest employment site.”

      Scotland’s biggest employment site?

      Archived: http://archive.is/IvpxH

    30. Hugh Kirk says:

      Welcome to Owen Smith’s world of batshit crazy and fucked-up thinking.

    31. Breeks says:

      The big problem isn’t renewing Trident, it’s renewing Trident then handing the launch codes to Labour.

      Actually, that’s not quite true. The big problem IS renewing Trident.

      Launch codes without any missiles to launch is just sudoku, and even Labour can’t hurt anybody with a number puzzle.

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Well summarised.

      It’s all about BritNats pretending to be much bigger fish than the wee herring they really are.

      It’s what Scotland is up against – the fear of Greater England losing status and prestige. Losing Scotland, losing their precious WMD club membership.

      As for Trident costs. What they aren’t considering is that Scotland is highly likely to have become an independent country within the lifetime of Trident MkI, far less its replacement. They will have to factor in early decommissioning or expensive relocation.

      The footprint in Scotland is twofold, as I understand it. Faslane is a deep water access naval base, and Coulport is an WMD storage facility. I can foresee a presence at Faslane being negotiated in a complex Indy deal. Perhaps a lease for ten years. Coulport seems to me to be a totally different entity. I could not imagine Scotland continuing to actually store another country’s nukes. It’s unimaginable and probably unacceptable internationally.

      So, in the current debate on Trident, Scotland’s constitutional status and the Brexit crisis are far more than just an elephant in the room!

    33. Valerie says:

      This is how bloody ridiculous it is having a nuclear deterrent. The UK continually has the piss ripped, by the Russians just observing from above and below.

      The Russians have very high tech, that many only dream of. They took some of it for an outing when they entered Syria, a great chance to show off some incredible weaponry.

      They have just devised an almost silent submarine, that has missiles with a 900 mile range.

      This pathetic and dangerous cold war with the Russians beggars belief, and even idiots like Erdogan and Kerry have recently been make friendly noises about Russia.

      Another major reason to be out of this warmonger union.

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/raf-cuts-nimrod-patrols-allows-russians-spy-trident-submarines-warn-experts-1503626

    34. Ian says:

      ‘He later studied History and French at the University of Sussex. He worked for the BBC as a radio producer for 10 years, working on a variety of programmes in both Wales and London, including Today for BBC Radio Four and the weekly politics programme Dragon’s Eye for BBC Cymru Wales television.[8]

      Smith then entered the biotechnology and pharmaceuticals industry for five years, and in 2005 became head of policy and government relations for pharmaceutical corporation Pfizer, where he was paid £80,000 a year to lobby for the company.[4] Leaving Pfizer in September 2008 he subsequently joined Amgen, another pharmaceutical company’

      So his main experience is as a lobbyist. Obviously the guy to lead (new/newish/a bit to the right/a lot to the right/just give me the money – delete as applicable) labour.

    35. tiny tam says:

      Rev you, obviously, haven’t been paying attention to APD, at £250k a job whilst paying the peons (lets be generous £50k thats £200k that can be used to educate our future mathematicians in bailiematics). Plus as our patriotic roll as the 51st state of the USA (ignore that Brexit crap) we can reduce their costs of a weapon they’d obviously, as history tells us, never use.

      Anybody seen an aircraft carrier with aeroplanes on them recently? Naw, me neither.

    36. Dan Huil says:

      WMD: a waste of money.

      Britnats: a waste of space.

    37. Dr Jim says:

      I’ll tell you what we ARE experts at @Woody
      We’re brilliant at not being stupid at least more than once
      your lot enjoy making a habit of it

    38. mike cassidy says:

      Oh, dear!

      Frankie Boyle was not joking about ‘Windows For Submarines’

      A must read!

      http://archive.is/kip4P#selection-1855.0-1855.476

      And here’s a taste.

      Critics point in particular to the Royal Navy’s decision to install a variant of Windows XP as the operating system on its missile-carrying Vanguard-class submarines. It was cheaper than the alternatives, but Windows for Submarines, as it is called, is also more vulnerable to malware as it comes off-the-shelf. This also means there are more bugs in circulation that could affect it, and every time a submarine comes to port and gets a software patch, it is newly vulnerable.

    39. defo says:

      The programme, spelled out again for those of the hard of hearing.
      Liking the detail though. MAY 2017 ?

      “When asked if she would be happy to have an independence referendum in the first half of next year, she said: “I will have an indyref if I come to conclusion that is in the best interests of Scotland.
      “I’ve always said that. It would be up to Scottish people ultimately to decide if that is right way to go.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36819182

    40. Betty Boop says:

      @ Woody

      Outclassed – now sit at the desk at the front of the class and come back when you have done your homework.

    41. ronnie anderson says:

      Its not now a case of Beam me up Scottie.

      Rev book me in fur ah Physiatric Evaluation. Politicians like Owen are a danger to one’s mental health

    42. Calum McKay says:

      The more that labour are exposed the more it becomes evident that Corbyn and McDonnell are the only two labour politicians with common sense, morality and decency, the rest are confused self serving clowns like this guy smith and his colleague eagle.

      Two forces are emerging in the fight for Scottish independence, firstly the competence of the SNP leadership and secondly that both labour and tories are a shambles. How can yo get to brexit with out a plan, the only party who had a plan was the SNP.

      I see eagle and others are deploying a tactic used in the Scottish independence referendum, namely claiming people are being beastly to them, if your only policy is this, you alnt got a lot going for you.

    43. Artyhetty says:

      No doubt at all is there that the vote will be to renew this abomination, funny word that, abomb-in-nation.

      Surely, absolutely not one politician, and we know they will all be unionist ones, can ever stand in parliament and moan on about poverty, foodbanks, job cuts, austerity, homelessness, not funding the NHS, etc with a straight face, having voted to renew WMDs. Oh, wait, they don’t do they.

      What do they stand for? Who do they stand up for? (we know) What are they being paid a nice wage with all the perks, for?

      Take your disgusting nukes down south, if you want to keep em, the jobs will still be there then, just not in Scotland and which yoon ever cared about jobs in Scotland.

    44. Robert Kerr says:

      @mike cassidy

      Reminded me of the “divide by zero” leads to ship “dead in the water” incident with US Navy.

      https://gcn.com/Articles/1998/07/13/Software-glitches-leave-Navy-Smart-Ship-dead-in-the-water.aspx

      Yes, us wingers know a thing or two about most things, and have long memories.

      Enjoy the schadenfreude.

    45. Bugger (le Panda) says:

      Woody, who gave you that name, your Mammy?

      She dun well.

    46. call me dave says:

      Trident is one of the deepest fault lines in UK – Scottish relations after Brexit, and not just because support for renewal appears waning in the opinion polls.

      Tomorrow’s motion will be opposed by 98 per cent of Scotland’s MPs, with only the Conservative Scottish Secretary, David Mundell, likely to support it.

      From a more eclectic article by McWhirter:

      http://archive.is/KRlCu

    47. Effijy says:

      Spot on Rev ! You know your stuff alright.

      Can I just remind everyone that the former Chief of the UK Army has confirmed that the USA hold the launch code to these missiles in secret, and although the Labour and Tory Parties may wish to launch a Weapon of Mass Destruction, at some point, they must ask the USA, if they are in agreement and are willing to release the code?

      The UK Pays for it and the USA can play with it?

      Could we also look at the extremely unlikely situation where Russia starts to invade their former satellite countries, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania?

      Lets say the Russians are not doing as well as they would have like in the battle, they decide that the UK Army based along these borders are the problem, so in frustration they fire a Nuclear Missile at Rosyth, hoping to take out Westminster’s Trident Missiles that are based there.

      Glasgow and Edinburgh and everything in-between are destroyed in a Nuclear Holocaust. (That’s me gone for good)

      Westminster who is OK down in London asks the USA if they would mind passing on a launch code to a UK nuclear sub already at sea. On this occasion they agree.
      They fire at the Russian City that Launched the Missile attack, Ostrov, on the Russian Latvian Border.

      The Missile wipes out millions of Russian, Estonian, and Latvian men, women and Children just a few minutes later.

      Both parties now cease fire.

      Radiation from both strike areas drifts in the winds for hundred of miles and covers the whole of Scotland with deadly radiation that now covers our Reservoirs, our arable crops, the grass eaten by our cattle and sheep, etc.

      Any Scottish survivors eat and drink what they can find, and soon afterwards die of Radiation Poisoning.

      Same thing is happening in Russia, and to our NATO allies in Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.

      Can I ask if anyone in their right mind can see this as
      a victory and an opportunity that we don’t want to pass us by?

      The NHS is running out of funds as more and more of the nation become elderly and infirm.

      Educational Budget are cut and all parties outside of Scotland want to charge for university education.

      Infrastructure does not have the money to invest in Rail, Road and Air passenger travel.

      The Nation doesn’t have the money to pay off the hideous interest terms of the PFI Funded Schools and Hospitals.

      The UK has millions of families now dependent on Food Banks. Could some extra money remove the need for them?

      The Tories have already attacked the Disabled as the support they require is considered too expensive.

      Anyone think that the above list of essentials could better use £200,000,000,000 than some war mongering politician’s proposals for bombs that will kill you and the innocents of some foreign lands?

    48. Woody says:

      @Dr Jim
      Quite the thing that, yet your are determined to plough headlong into another referendum that you will lose.

      The russians do not have amazingly high tech that the west can only dream of, this site is full of some of the most ridiculous claims i’ve seen in some time. Most of their shitty cruise missiles fell on Iran.

      Supposing that the SNP even won another referendum, I wouldn’t be so sure that they would get rid of the nuclear base, the NATO member that is responsible for dismantling part of NATOs deterrent.

      Arrogantly pontificating about stuff you know f all about and repeatedly attempting to belittle and insult any opposing voices, despite said voices being the clear the majority of the of the country you claim to have the best interests of at heart, is a pretty good barometer of your intelligence and superiority complex, and is why you lost the last referendum and will lose the next one.

    49. Macart says:

      Partnership.

      Remember that word after the debate and vote.

    50. Valerie says:

      @Mike Cassidy

      I’ve read that item before.

      I don’t know why anyone in the UK would believe Trident is the answer to any of their fears.

      China and Russia are so far in front, we can’t even see them.

      France didn’t prevent a suicide nutter from driving that truck. Hollandes response – join the Reserves, get used to this, and we will do more bombing runs on Muslims.

      With men like him in charge, we have no chance at peace. Expect some type of craziness here shortly.

    51. Robert Kerr says:

      @Woody

      Bruce and the spider old chum. I was taught that at primary school.

      We shall ultimately be free. One ref?, two refs?, three? however many it takes.

    52. Woody says:

      This is again a genuine question not rhetoric, would you be happy if all NATO members gave up all their nuclear weapons ?

    53. Valerie says:

      @Effigy

      The only upside to that scenario, is that the irradiated Walking Dead, will head South, to partake of the ‘broad shoulders’ our union with the UK, affords us.

    54. Valerie says:

      @Woody

      Genuine question how many NATO members have nuclear weapons?

      Do your homework, as suggested.

    55. Bill Hume says:

      If we must have trolls, I must say, Woody is good value for money.

    56. Dr Jim says:

      @Woody

      I wouldn’t dream of belittling or insulting you when you make such a wonderful job of doing that yourself in whatever country you might be referring to, or are you having a difficult geography moment again
      I also had no Idea you were an expert on Russian munitions and where they intended to fire them and at whom, but I’ll bow to your obvious superior knowledge on all things decided by Mr Putin and his country

      Perhaps if you applied the same diligence to the affairs of whichever country within the United Kingdom you live you might not come accross as someone who appears to be interfering in other peoples countries that are none of your business

      Maybe Mr Peffers is about and can give you a short compact history and geography lesson at the same time
      I’ll just give you the really short version

      The United Kingdom is NOT a country, learn that and you’re on your way to being less of an Arse

    57. Woody says:

      @Betty Boop
      eh, whatever.

      @Robert Kerr
      Who are “We” ?

    58. heedtracker says:

      Woody says:
      17 July, 2016 at 2:12 pm
      This is again a genuine question not rhetoric, would you be happy if all NATO members gave up all their nuclear weapons ?

      So loads of insult and then a stupid question. You’re on fire today Woody.

    59. Woody says:

      Erm, what has the number of NATO members who have nuclear weapons got to do with the question ? FFS what does listing those individual countries have to do with your answer ?

    60. MarkerPost says:

      The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, to which UK is a signatory, prohibits development of new nuclear weapons systems. How do Owen Smith et al reconcile that with their support for spending 200 billion on Trident renewal? (I know, I know, it’s “just an upgrade, it’s not a new system”, but you can hardly persuade other countries not to bend the rules by bending the rules yourself).

    61. Woody says:

      How is it a stupid question ?

    62. gerry parker says:

      @Bugger 1:56.

      Sprayed the screen with coffee and biscuit there Jim.

      🙂

    63. John Sweevo says:

      “can only imagine that Labour are AMAZING at poker” NO they are a busted flush

    64. Woody says:

      Dr Jim,

      So i have insulted myself ? Clever.

      How can someone who is Scottish, lived and worked in Scotland all my life, raised my children here etc be “interfering” ? I think you are the one showing how much of a total dick you are with your patronising bullshit about “your” country. It isn’t your country any more than it is mine, so you can fuck right off with that shite.

      I also had no Idea you were an expert on Russian munitions
      But you seem happy to accept that “Valerie” is – not only Russian, but Chinese. Interesting that isn’t it.

    65. Alan Crerar says:

      I noticed that there was the convenient announcment a few days ago that the UK is purchasing 9 Boeing P8 maritime reconnaisance aircraft, to be based at Lossiemouth with the promise of ‘up to’ 2000 jobs. These were, it was said on the BBC, ‘to protect Trident and its replacement’. First of all, who thinks this will happen? And anyway the ‘protection’ Trident will get from it will be zero once the shooting starts – the P8 ‘eyes’ will be first target to be splashed.
      A wee bit of background that I know Wingers will already be aware of, but is worth repeating for the appropriately named Woody’s education, The Boeing P8 is based on the 1964 designed 737 airliner that carries Woody to Magaluf every year. Updated certainly, big and slow? Oh yes. (the Boeing, not Woody!) Those won’t be roundels painted on the side, they’ll be targets.
      So who got the backhander for cancelling our (admitedly 1947-based) Comet-derived Nimrods? Show me where this helps our balance of payments deficit?
      From Trident to Kevlar vests, the defence procurement of the UK stinks of wastefulness and inefficiency. And its not even any good for defending the UK – its ‘force-projection’ at its civillian-killing best.

    66. heedtracker says:

      Woody says:
      17 July, 2016 at 2:28 pm
      How is it a stupid question ?

      Well what’s it got to do with the Westminster renewal vote next week, and has teamGB actually got between £167bn and £225bn to lash out on a weapon that they cant ever use?

      Rancid The Graun piles in too-

      “SNP urges Theresa May to delay vote on Trident renewal
      Party’s Westminster leader says Tories and Labour are in no fit state for decision after month of ‘backstabbing and navel-gazing’”

      Westminster’s so fcuked up they cant even hit the art 50 button, let alone the big one. Their nuke vote’s clearly just part of Westminster’s political games Woody, squeeze JC, force out Lab’s red tory war hawks. Eagle loves a bloody good war though, well they all do. Its only fackin money and if one does go off in Scotland, its the end of the sweatie problem too.

    67. Alan Crerar says:

      Since I mentioned Magaluf hosing Woody’s hols, this is maybe a good time to point out to that namesake of a dick that Spain was a nuclear-hosting nation and subsequently had them removed from Spanish soil so the likes of Woody can come back from touring the English theme pubs there without glowing in the dark.
      A courtesy not yet extended to tourist visiting the West Coast of Scotland.

    68. mike cassidy says:

      If anybody needs a nuclear laugh –

      and you will laugh in a wtf way –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1ya-yF35g

    69. Iain More says:

      Do all Blood and Soil British Nationalists have to be psychopathic cretins? Question directed at any waste of oxygen, Answer is obviously yes.

    70. Dr Jim says:

      @Woody

      Losing your temper now, that’s usually the way with Unionists when they can’t talk you to death
      Or maybe you’d like to offer a new Vow or a promise that all will be better together under the control of your lot
      Of course none of your lot know what they are doing about anything at the moment except for one thing, they know they want to control Scotland and it’s the only thing they’re United on

      And it is my country and you’re also not Scottish because it doesn’t matter where you were born to be Scottish
      I have friends with names like Humza and Ahmed who are as Scottish as me and if you were for real you’d know that
      And no true Scotsman would be happy about another country stealing from it then claiming we never had it in the first place
      Even you Unionists accept you’re proven liars over and over

      I’ve no more time for you or your kind

      Peddle your domination elsewhere

    71. Meindevon says:

      Just wondering…does EVEL not influence Owen Smith’s future hopes of being pm? I thought he has a Welsh seat.

      Can he be considered pm material if he can’t vote on English matters like Scottish MPs?

    72. A2 says:

      This is just the established PLP line, I’ve got a letter from Ann McKechin back when she was my MP which is pretty much word for word.

    73. Valerie says:

      @Woody

      Where have I or anyone claimed to be munitions experts? You have heard of research, I presume?

      You see, folk like me don’t like the smell of bullshit with our news. We like something called evidence, facts etc., so we set out and acquire it.

      And the answer to your NATO question? Yes.

      The whole Trident thing is sad Willie waving, which obviously still has its admirers.

      It’s a pity as a father, you see nuclear armament in your child’s future. It’s better that way, eh?

    74. Hamish100 says:

      Out last evening with some brexiters, pro nuclear types.

      They were labour and tory. They hate Nicola Sturgeon. The tory’s love May. (obviously the Salmond effect is wearing off).

      If we stay in the UK union – Scotland will have nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors (submarines) floating / sometimes submerged, heading up on down the Clyde and up the West coast. We can go to war again, against our will.

      EU Union– none of the above.

      Was asked if I agreed to unelected EU reps. I asked if they agreed to the House of Lords.

      ps if it wasn’t for the Union Andy Murray wouldn’t win Wimbledon. I asked if Scotland’s lack of football success was due to it. Blank stares. We will end up like Greece.

      Hard work the rUK’s

    75. Cuilean says:

      Trolls are wee beasts

      who love a fine feast.

      Don’t overfeed them,

      They think then you need them.

      Don’t make their day,

      Or they won’t go away.

      Trolls hate being bored

      So please just ignore.

      [Oh, and fcuk off Woody].

    76. Bob Mack says:

      @Woody,

      The new Russian Yasen class Severodvinsk starts it’s sea combat trials this month.

      It is as quiet as the American Seawolf class and can do over 20 knots without producing cavitation from its props. It is Titanium hulled with a liquid metal cooled reactor. It is very advanced.

      The design has caused Western naval intelligence some concern.

      Some of us do know of what we speak.You clearly don’t.

    77. Valerie says:

      Here’s why we shouldn’t poke the Bear, and why Trident is redundant.

      See Woody, you don’t need to be an expert, just open minded.

      Russian capacity, and that’s only what they are willing to.divulge.

      http://archive.is/ziqxI

    78. Effijy says:

      Woody! F*** Off with your pal Buzz Lightyear! Disnae Work!

      Most of you will know that Scotland and Norway have much in Common.

      We have similar populations, revenue from oil fields found at the same time, both were/are tied to a neighbouring countries, and both know they are better off Independent.

      Norway, who became Independent was able to build up an Oil
      Fund, a Fund that now exceeds $600,000,000,000.

      Scotland, because it was lied to by Westminster, doesn’t have anything in any fund, as it has been squandered by
      incompetent and greedy UK politicians and their “friends”.

      Not only do we not have that $600,000,000,000, but as a nation who does not have the power to borrow any money, our Westminster Masters apportion a share of “Their” dept
      upon us at some $20,000,000,000.

      Now Scotland doesn’t want to buy new Nuclear weapons, and doesn’t want them on our soil, but our broad shoulders
      at Westminster wants Scots to stump up their share of the replacement costs, at around $20,000,000,000.

      So Norway, who sits next door to Russia, unlike Scotland, broke away to become independent, and didn’t spend any money on nuclear weapons, appear to be roughly better off than Scotland by some $640,000,000,000.

      I think I’d like Scotland to use the old weapons on Westminster, become Independent, and be the most successful nation on planet earth!

      Plan B, Just become Independent of Westminster corruption!

    79. Hazel Lewry says:

      So,how did France’s nuclear arsenal keep them safe from a lunatic in a truck?

    80. Spikethedee says:

      Has anyone ever answered the question of what would happen just now if faslane became unusable, either through terrorist attack or a natural disaster?? There must be some kind of fall back position to use another base somewhere, isn’t there??? With such expensive multi-billion pound equipment, the government can’t surely have not had a second viable base available, can they??

      If not, why the hell not?? If so, why not base them there permanently instead of somewhere they are not wanted??

    81. Bob Mack says:

      @Hazel Lewry,

      Spot on Hazel.

    82. The Isolator says:

      Bob Mack,

      Nice one ,saved me jumping in there..Christ on a bike how thick are these freakin unionistas?

      Woody ,do some research ffs.

    83. Hamish100 says:

      With nuclear weapons it is a moral issue for me. Not a political soundbite.

      As a wee boy I remember watching the race riots in the USA on TV as a result of segregation. I knew what was right and what was wrong helped by my parents.. I couldn’t believe that people could be treated so badly because of their skin tone.(how does a racist with colour blindness resolve their fears?).

      I remember the Cuban Crisis and asking my dad if we were going to die. He didn’t answer but I could see his concern for his family. Now we are in 2016. I have children and grandchildren and we still have racism in the USA and those in power tell us we need the improved nuclear weapon systems in order to get rid of them. It was wrong then it is wrong now.

      The old lies regurgitated and tarted up.

      This time though we can learn the truth from various sources. Even woody above should he wish too.

    84. Valerie says:

      Why we are being dragged into a nuclear war by USA, the biggest murderer of civilians on the planet.

      I watched Putin receiving the large block of Western press, which he does, quite regularly. He actually said to the throng, I don’t know what I have to do or say to make it clear to you that Russia is the one under threat.

      They are getting very sick of the game.

      http://archive.is/C4yt1

    85. Bob Mack says:

      @The isolator,

      Yeah mate. What nobody has mentioned yet is the new satellite technology coming on stream ,from both East and West, which makes it possible to track subs even in the deepest oceans. They reckon by 2018 stealth sub sea warfare will be impossible.

      So why invest all that money in something that will be obsolete anyway ?

    86. Chossy says:

      Renewing trident is daft, however multilateral disarmament works just like you would think, so if you reduce yours by a set percentage then the signatories follow suit, so for every one the UK does destroy then yes 140 odd should go. Nothing crazy about that it’s how it works if it didn’t work like that then it wouldn’t be multilateral. It would be who has the most left over still has a fair few left Iver.

    87. Chitterinlicht says:

      Great summary and analysis.

      For as long as i can remeber i wanted these weapons out of my country.

      They are an abonimation and economic absurdity.

    88. Woody says:

      @DrJIm

      And no true Scotsman would be happy about…

      I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.

    89. Tam Jardine says:

      To unionists it is a complete no-brainer that Scotland remains in the UK and that we all just need to bite down, shut up and put up with whatever is chucked at us- whether it be nuclear weapons we don’t want stationed near our largest city or withdrawal from the EU against our wishes.

      Anyone who opposes this view is other-ed- denigrated as zealots, nationalists, anti-English etc etc.

      Here is a wee thought- try persuading a country to take Scotland’s place in the union. Obviously Ireland is a non-starter- they got well out long ago. Would the Netherlands consider hosting trident? Downgrading their parliament? Leaving the EU on the whim of English voters? Would they accept all their income being funnelled through London and getting whatever London decrees sent back? And being derided all the time as subsidy junkies?

      What about Belgium? Or Denmark? Norway are already not in the EU- would they consider hosting trident in one of the many fjords and sending their oil wealth to London?

    90. Ruby says:

      Talking about what goes on in Labour politician’s minds is pretty boring.

      I think I’ll wind-up Woody instead of discussing Labour.

      ‘Woody’ is probably one of those words banned on ‘The Scotman’he probably thinks it’s fun when someone quotes his name & their post is put into moderation.

      Why you might ask would the name of a character from Toy Story be a banned word on ‘The Scotsman’?

      Probably for the same reason that ‘massive johnson’ is banned.

      Woody I would say is a pretty appropriate name for BriNat trolls.

      A Woody for those who don’t read American trashy novels means a giant dick.

    91. velofello says:

      Having a woody is an american expression, guess we have one here. Woody really is standing up and being noted.

    92. Ruby says:

      Woody

      Why are you posting on Wings?

      Why on earth do you call yourself ‘erect penis’?

    93. heedtracker says:

      Woody says:
      17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm
      @DrJIm

      And no true Scotsman would be happy about…

      I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.

      The real worry, or tragedy, is that your mindset dictates that we will have Trident 2 and its all down to this rule Britannia world power and presence stupidity. Trident 2 is clearly no defence against any threat but so what, England is an imperial nation and will be given a seat at the captains table. Scotland can like it or lump it. We cant afford to pay for higher education or decent pensions but we must be able to fire nuke missiles.

      Exact same Rule Britannia mentality Brexited Scots too but again, tough luck, England doesn’t want EU citizenship, so youre not getting it either.

    94. Thepnr says:

      @Woody

      Your own loathing of the now more than 50% of Scots that support Independence is plain to see.

      Tuck your shirt back in your drawers your crack is showing.

    95. Dr Jim says:

      Aw is @Woodlouse away in the huff, diddums

      I don’t think he liked me, well anybody really

      Anyway no time for these folk pretending they’re trying to discuss stuff when all they really want is to impose stuff
      The referendum’s likely coming and most people pretty much know where they stand since the Brexit vote, but this time business is on our side and the clever brainy types as well

      Only the Meeja will oppose now and Mini May Davidson
      coz Kezia is too blinded by tears to choose the future for the wee babies and Willie Rennie will shake his head and say I personally don’t want this to happen but if it’s what the people want what can I say, do you want a photy of me on a bouncy castle

      Scotland, land of the free and home of the, well, free

    96. Grouse Beater says:

      Woody: “How can someone who is Scottish, lived and worked in Scotland all my life, raised my children here etc be “interfering”?

      Another poop scoop finds no crap on site.

      A Scot are you, with family? But think Scotland should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?

      Hope to god you sent your kids to a good school. Your argument is idiotic, your manners and courtesy suck.

      For all we know you could claim to be Che Guevara’s cousin, or the Pope practicing written English.

    97. Ruby says:

      Has there been any discussion about the new currency?

    98. Graeme says:

      Woody says:
      17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm

      @DrJIm

      And no true Scotsman would be happy about…

      I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.

      I don’t disagree with everything you’ve said on here but if The “majority of men and women” you talk of is the 55% who bought the lies and deceit of the establishment you love so much during the the independence referendum you’re wrong.

      I can’t talk for everyone on here but I don’t loath them I pity them and I doubt very much they are still a majority.

      So if you’ve had enough go pick up your flute and your sash and join the rest of your Britnat hate mob I’m sure they’ll agree with everything you have to say and quietly piss off

      Graeme

    99. TJenny says:

      Hmm – Are flutes wood-wind?

    100. Thepnr says:

      @Ruby

      Plenty discussion on our new currency. We jocks should spend all our scroats on new nuclear missiles. Were keeping the food banks open which at least shows when it comes to spending the scroats in our pocket we at least have our priorities right.

      Dint we just!

    101. TJenny says:

      Hah, Graeme, seems our posts crossed, but great minds eh! 🙂

    102. Stoker says:

      Another argument used by Unionists on the siting of their WMD’ is that there are ‘no deep water ports capable of doing the job’ in England.

      Absolute shite with diarrhea on top!
      Even if there wasn’t any, have they never heard of dredging?

      The reasons they don’t keep these WMD’ down in England are obvious. Apart from the very real dangers the English don’t want them there, especially their money classes and any attempts to site them on English coastal waters would send a majority into one helluva hairy fit.

      The other obvious reason London is hell-bent on these murderous phallic symbols is to keep in with Uncle Sam. I mean, what good would the old ship USS Britannia be without weapons?
      FINANCIALLY SUNK AND ABANDONED!

      BTW, another great article Stu, thanks!

    103. Paul Wilson says:

      It would appear that the Labour party have learned absolutely nothing from their electoral defeats especially in Scotland. Watching the two challengers to Corbyn was enlightening in the sense that they still feel a sense of entitlement and that if they keep spouting the same garbage eventually we will all start believing it. Orwell’s 1984 comes to mind with his terminology of Double Speak being the Labour party’s policy.

    104. Phronesis says:

      The International Court of Justice gave its Advisory Opinion in 1996 on the legality of the use or threat of nuclear weapons, in response to a resolution of the General Assembly of the United Nations. Reflecting the Opinion on the legality of Trident, whilst it cannot be concluded definitively that the threat or use of Trident is illegal, at the very least the legality of the programme is brought into considerable doubt

      ‘After sketching the historical development of the body of rules which originally were called “laws and customs of war” and later came to be termed “international humanitarian law”, the Court observes that the cardinal principles contained in the texts constituting the fabric of humanitarian law are the following.

      The first is aimed at the protection of the civilian population and civilian objects and establishes the distinction between combatants and non-combatants; States must never make civilians the object of attack and must consequently never use weapons that are incapable of distinguishing between civilian and military targets.

      According to the second principle, it is prohibited to cause unnecessary suffering to combatants: it is accordingly prohibited to use weapons causing them such harm or uselessly aggravating their suffering. In application of that second principle, States do not have unlimited freedom of choice of means in the weapons they use…

      The Court observes that, in view of the unique characteristics of nuclear weapons, to which the Court has referred above, the use of such weapons in fact seems scarcely reconcilable with respect for the requirements of the law applicable in armed conflict…

      In the long run, international law, and with it the stability of the international order which it is intended to govern, are bound to suffer from the continuing difference of views with regard to the legal status of weapons as deadly as nuclear weapons. It is consequently important to put an end to this state of affairs: the long-promised complete nuclear disarmament appears to be the most appropriate means of achieving that result

      http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/index.php?sum=498&p1=3&p2=4&case=95&p3=5

      It’s not just lawyers who are concerned- medics are also opposed to Trident renewal.

      ‘War and conflict are major causes of human suffering. They also cause environmental degradation, contribute to global warming, perpetuate inequalities and undermine democracy. Nuclear bombs and other indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction are incompatible with the public health aims of safety and health protection.

      But a vast complex of standing armies, militias, weapons manufacturers, arms traders and politicians promote war, violence and militarism out of self-interest and greed, or because they fail to see better alternatives for resolving conflict and disputes.

      Health professionals have a long history of being engaged with various aspects of war in a positive manner. This has included: providing humanitarian relief; facilitating ceasefires and the cessation of conflict; promoting disarmament and peacebuilding; and providing impartial evidence on the perpetration of war crimes.

      Medact grew out of the medical peace movement (see history) and is the UK-affiliate of the Nobel Laureate ‘International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War’ (IPPNW).

      Medact continues to promote disarmament; seek the abolition of nuclear weapons; and reduce the power and influence of the global military-industrial complex. It promotes the universal right to health as a platform for peace building and more effective international diplomacy and cooperation’

      http://www.medact.org/peace-security/

      Trident renewal should be considered in relation to the findings of Chilcot and the fall out from Iraq which asks many questions of trust, accountability, governance, morality in our political leaders. Some of whom clearly still struggle with the appropriate political responses to the issues that threaten humanity globally and which require international solutions- addressing inequalities and the development of sustainable food and energy resource.

      More simply there is no democratic mandate to renew Trident in Scotland.

    105. Not Convinced says:

      Actually there is one redeeming feature to a decision to join with the USA in developing Trident 3. (It can’t be Trident 2 BTW, because Trident 2 is what we already have!)

      The reason I say that is that one of the alternatives the UK government could go for would be developing our own system from scratch … And when you look at the UK’s track record in developing complex defence systems (e.g. CVA01, Polaris Chevaline, Nimrod AEW, Nimrod MRA4 to name just the really well-known ones), that should make anyone feel queasy! (I’m sure BAe would claim they could develop one, but based on the past record I’d suggest they’d bust their budget by a factor of 5 or more and not actually produce a working system at the end.)

    106. Papko says:

      The referendum’s likely coming and most people pretty much know where they stand since the Brexit vote,

      @DrJim
      I don’t think anyone knows where they stand, nothing has been sorted, or established yet, there will be positives to Brexit though.

      One of them will be Scottish exports will surge, supplies of Fish, Whisky and Shortbread will be eagerly gobbled up by Johny Foreigner.
      This is all due to the SG promoting and investing heavily in community driven projects and workers cooperatives, where Scotland poor and vulnerable and hitherto unemployed are getting properly rewarded for their high skill sets.

      Whats not to like when Scots, living in Scotland, run businesses for Scots.

      Oh and the pound has dropped 20% , so our goods are a lot cheaper, that helps as well.

      😉

      After Indy in 2017 I will buy a Kilt and lobby for some business from the SG , will have to get my donations to the YES side in quick though and make them hefty.


      but this time business is on our side and the clever brainy types as well”

      they have been missing up to now ?

    107. Valerie says:

      @Woody

      You don’t understand debate. You questioned our non support of Trident, we gave you lots of opinions and facts.

      Keep up your end, and tell us why it’s needed, or why we should continue with the UK union – that is surely an open goal?

      You are using that lame ‘you hate everyone’.

    108. CarolDuhart2 says:

      American lurker here. The reality is that anything big enough to trigger nukes would be at least a continent-sized war, in which having Trident would be at best an afterthought.

      The big powers who have nukes on foreign soil have always kept complete control over them. Russia didn’t allow Castro access to its nukes, either. (I don’t know if China has any nukes off its territory). One reason I suspect is that of secrecy. Another, is to avoid them being taken hostage by various government and governmental factions. The United States has done the same (remember the fuss over SS-20’s in Germany?)

      Trident is a relic of the Cold War, when some felt that Britain needed some sort of deterrent against Russia.

    109. James Barr Gardner says:

      Bob Mack says:
      17 July, 2016 at 3:44 pm
      @The isolator,

      Yeah mate. What nobody has mentioned yet is the new satellite technology coming on stream ,from both East and West, which makes it possible to track subs even in the deepest oceans. They reckon by 2018 stealth sub sea warfare will be impossible.

      So why invest all that money in something that will be obsolete anyway ?

      Not forgetting the the speed of evolution in autonomous deep underwater drones !!!!!!!!!

    110. davidb says:

      Our First Minister is on the Marr Show at about 37:30 on Iplayer.

      Strewth she’s good.

      I can see now that perhaps the position we wanted before Brexit of the UK being kept in by Scottish votes with the English narrowly voting to leave, may in fact be what are being offered. Bearing in mind that Labour is going to be unelectable, and UKIP can blame the Scots instead of Brussels, who knows what the eventual outcome is going to be. And meanwhile Farage, Gove, Cameron and Osborne are gone while Boris has been given the dream job of having to go round the world appologising for his previous statements.

      I’m still preparing for a May/2017 ID2, but maybe it will be back to 2020 again after all. Nail biting stuff.

    111. Sassenach says:

      Walk quietly, woody seems to have gone – or is he just changing names!!! Pity, he was funny in a thicko kind of way.

    112. Liz Rannoch says:

      Great article as usual, although it fried my brain a bit and had to read it a couple of times (well it’s about labour innit?)

      Anyway, I don’t need to know anything about them to know they are the worst thing humans have invented.

      BTW watch out for sneaky moves from cruella d’evel (sorry if that’s already been done) and her non-government such as:

      https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/10/mod-trident-scotland-independence

    113. Sassenach says:

      davidb – Nicola was good on Politics Scotland an hour later, where the Brewster never landed a blow.

      She should do all the BBC interviews for the SNP!!

    114. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby: “Has there been any discussion about the new currency?”

      Can’t be until the report with recommendations is release … to allow time for another torrent of falsehoods and derision from unionists to subside.

    115. Capella says:

      Late to the thread so sorry if this has been mentioned but:
      If we have had nuclear weapons all these years and the world is a much more dangerous place now then that surely demonstrates that nuclear weapons are a wast of money.

      Try not invading Arab countries and bombing them.

      The Sunday Herald has an article on how they are not independent but controlled by the USA.
      http://archive.is/CSDlw

    116. gerry parker says:

      @ Tam Jardine.

      And just think if Scotland offered itself to any other country in the world on the basis of its current relationship to the UK.

      Take all our taxes and resources, have army, navy and air force stationed here as well as WMD’s, talk to the world on our behalf.

      all in exchange for some pocket money.

      The queue would be a long one.

    117. carjamtic says:

      Scotland’s own people have well noted that’s Scotland’s influence on UK foreign policy,whether Iraq,Trident,rendition flights or EU fishing policy,is negligible…almost ZERO.

      Meanwhile Scotland’s own European backyard offers plenty examples of small independent democracies contributing to global development (out of proportion to their size).Eleven of the EU member states are the same size or smaller than Scotland and they were all able to decide for themselves about sending troops to Iraq or having nuclear bases on their territory.

      An iScotland will be a strong supporter of international law and of the network of intergovernmental institutions,NATO,WTO,ITU to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons,we would have DIRECT representation,on the many organisations that contribute to the effective management of global interdependence.

      Within this framework an iScotland would decide on three key relationships,EU,UK and with collective military alliances.

      The key defence decisions facing iScotland,would be on nuclear bases and NATO membership,most likely would be the end of British nuclear bases,the either neutrality (Sweden,Austria,Ireland,Finland,Switzerland) and non NATO membership or non-nuclear membership like Norway.

      #scotlandsvoice

    118. Grouse Beater says:

      It’s not only Trident the USA control but England too.

      All that diversionary nonsense from wee Englanders about being controlled by Brussels, and not a sausage about the control from the USA.

      They control NATO policy, which means how we spend out taxes, Israeli policy, internal policy towards terrorist insurgents, armament distribution, cultural colonialism, broadcasting, trade with many South American countries, decades of trade with Cuba, the list goes on and on.

    119. Albaman says:

      I think James Clark Maxwell would have great difficulty working out an equation on the likelihood of the world powers agreeing to a multinational agreement to rid themselves of all types of neuclar weapons.
      Whenever I hear any politician declare his/her option is for a multinational agreement , I just know that they are “at it”, and have no intention of voteing to remove neuclar weapons.

    120. I’m with Hamish100 on this one – I was a child of the late 1950’s – all other persuasive arguments for ridding ourselves of these abominations aside. For me it comes down to simple morality.

    121. Papko says:

      @GB

      If as you say England is controlled by USA, what countries are NOT controlled by USA, and how will iScotland compare to them.

      Interesting point you made about “cultural colonialism”, at least with indy Scots wont have to go to California to fund their film industry, their will be plenty of investment from the SG and better films too.

    122. Robert Peffers says:

      @Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 12:22 pm:

      “Do all Scottish Nationalists have to swallow the “nuclear is evil” juice before they sign up?”

      No.

      ” … I never did understand why so many issues get conflated with independance, they seem pretty separate to me. You can certainly believe in one and not the other.

      Seems to be rather a lot of things you do not understand, Woody. Could you explain why that might be?

      BTW: How do you expect to understand Scottish, or indeed any form on independence, when you seem unable to even spell the word correctly?

      ” … The current instability in the world was not “mostly” caused by the last two UK govt at all btw, wtf ?”

      Your evidence for that particular claim is what precisely, Woody?

      “Is there anything that you guys are not total experts on ?”

      Yes! There are a few but not very many. You see, Woody, some of us have been studying all and every aspect of the Scottish and English kingdoms historic relationships for many decades. My own personal studies in those matters goes back at least 70 years.

      ” … Foreign affairs, macro economics, history, political theory, the middle east, monetary policy….etc etc”

      Oh! Dear! Woody, you missed out the theory of Relativity, Quantum Physics, Nuclear Physics and the differences between the English legal system and that of the still independent Scottish legal system.

      Truth is, Woody, we do indeed have experts in almost everything under the Sun and beyond that fairly insignificant star and its planetary system.

      I did have to laugh at a one particular Westminster political pundit. He referred to our place in the Universe as, “One of a vast number of Solar Systems in the Universe”.

      It had flown right over his wee pointy head that the star at the centre of our little insignificant planetary system is named, “Sol”.

      Thus the star we Earth dwellers call, “The Sun”, or , “Sol”, is a unique title for our very own little planetary system there are no other, “Solar Systems”, in the entire Universe.

      So why do you persist in attempting to troll your betters and stop spouting your utter Westminster Propaganda pish all over this forum?

    123. BrokenUnion says:

      The arrogance of this leader pretender by ignoring and defying the vote of the Scottish Labour party to scrap trident says it all.

      It says it all about how much consideration Labour Headquarters and many English Labour MPs have for the ‘Scottish branch’ of the party: none.

      I wish Kezia and co opened their eyes for once and for all and see it for what it is: most labour MPs in Westminster don’t give a fig about Scotland or anything to do with it unless it is
      a. votes so they can look powerful
      b. resources that can be sucked up into the Westminster coffers
      c. available space so they can put the hazardous radioactive crap they don’t want any near their voters in the South because it could affect their popularity in the vote.

      Time for Scotland’s home rule my Lords. Nothing less will do, so please don’t waste your unelected time generating alternative acts of union.

      This trident mess is another reason that shows just how broken and unequal this union is:

      The Scottish Parliament voted to reject trident renewal in 2015 so why is it that this nation has to be silenced and forced to accept it when its own parliament voted against it? why is this nation forced to contribute to the costs of this obscenity? Why is our parliament silenced? Where is the equality and democracy on that?

      Where is the ‘precious union’ that gives each partner equal voice Mrs May because I don’t see it anywhere.

      I don’t know about the rest of you but I am getting increasingly fed up and less and less tolerant with all those mediocre politicians from England feeling that they have the right to patronise and lecture us on what is ‘best’ for us and what Scotland ‘should do’, when they do not live here, they do not work here, they do not pay their taxes here, they do not see the poverty in some areas here, and more importantly they do not have to suffer here the consequences of their biased and incompetent decisions. I would like to say to those: You are in no position to lecture us, so back off.

      Different polls not only in Scotland but in the whole UK seemingly show that a majority of the UK citizens reject the renewal of Trident so, Mr Smith, do you really want to renew trident? Then, in respect to all those UK citizens that do not want their tax money to be used to renew this obscenity, why don’t you set up a kitty with all those MPs at Westminster, who like you feel that this useless expense is a necessity to show off internationally your power and you pay for it yourselves?

      Also, Mr Smith, please don’t forget that we don’t want this toxic nuclear waste of space here in Scotland endangering our people, so, how about you take it down and put it on the pond in your back garden so you can admire it from your window every day when you get up? No pond in the back garden? Well, sir, there is always the Thames right in front of Westminster, isn’t there?

      I would like to mention to Mrs May and her new cabinet that for as long as those in her party, Labour and LibDems persist in silencing, ignoring, demeaning and override our parliament (as it surely will be the case in trident) you cannot talk about a Union:

      Ms May Your Union was placed on a hospital bed after being subjected to a heavy bashing by your predecessor and his spin doctor who got a lordship because of that, so the cons could win the election. The different perception between Scotland and England with regards to the EU has placed your Union on life support.

      My hope is that this Trident vote that your party is pushing for will be the brave hand that finally switches the assisted ventilation of your expiring Union off. RIP

      As per your comment regarding Scotland ‘voting overwhelmingly in favour of the Union’, well, PM, as I said above, which Union? Because the Union Scotland voted for in 2014 doesn’t longer exist after enduring the bashing of your predecessor and the deadly assault by the £350m-a-week-for-the-NHS brexiteers.

      There is no denial that far more people voted in favour of the EU Union than in favour of remaining in the UK union, so, doesn’t that tell you something?

    124. Papko says:

      @GB
      “Another poop scoop finds no crap on site.

      A Scot are you, with family? But think Scotland should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?”

      English are you, with family? But think England should be ruled by another country. Got any in mind?

      Yet Scottish nationalism is civic and English nationalism is all blood and soil.

    125. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 17 July, 2016 at 1:04 pm:

      ” … Do all unionist trolls have to make public their idiocy?”

      Och! No! Grouse Beater, that fact is taken as read by the general, non-unionist, person.

    126. Gail Hughes says:

      I am not sure of the relevance of other NATO members giving up their nuclear weapons. There’s only two, the USA and France. France, like the UK, keep their own system apart from NATO nuclear sharing so it would make little difference to the UK or NATO if France gave up its independent nuclear capability. The USA are the only member state who contribute nuclear missiles to NATO’s nuclear sharing.

      So far I haven’t heard of the UK planning to leave NATO, but as they seem intent on leaving the EU, the EHCR, and presumably, as May seems intent on denying Scottish people the Article 1 right of self-determination, the UN I wouldn’t put it past them.

      Assuming the UK stays in NATO, what purpose is served by having an independent nuclear capability? The saying about having a dog and barking yourself comes to mind. Do we not trust our NATO allies to act in our defence if we are subject to nuclear threat? Or are we planning to embark on a nuclear attack on some other country without NATO’s backing? Or even attack one of our NATO allies? I don’t know, I can’t imagine what the scenario would be where the UK engaged in a nuclear attack on another country that NATO were not prepared to undertake. Who are we going to attack that our allies won’t? Nobody, is the simple answer. If we did, and assuming any of us survived, the UK would be the pariah country of the world for decades to come. Even North Korea wouldn’t want to know us.

      The thing is an unusable waste of vast sums of money. It serves no worthwhile defensive purpose. It’s only point is to buy a permanent seat on the UN security council to try and retain the illusion that the UK is still a major world power.

    127. crazycat says:

      @ Meindevon at 2.59

      Smith is the MP for Pontypridd, and it was certainly pointed out that Stephen Crabb’s Welsh seat would make him an unsuitable Tory leader.

      Presumably a Labour government would try to repeal EVEL before it affected Smith, but I would think it would be hampering enough while he was Leader of the Opposition.

      He’s an extraordinary numpty, anyway. As a non-owner of a TV, I’d never heard him speak before watching the clip at the top of this article. Woeful.

    128. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      If we have had nuclear weapons all these years and the world is a much more dangerous place now then that surely demonstrates that nuclear weapons are a waste of money.

      I thought that too, and has been pointed out, France has suffered several horrendous attacks despite her nuclear capability.

      o/t – with my last comment, for the first time I got the “you are posting too quickly” message. I think I double-clicked the submit button. When I retried with a single click, it posted with no message. I’ll try that again with this comment.

    129. crazycat says:

      Single click works; now to try double-clicking again.

    130. crazycat says:

      Single click works; now to try double-clicking again.

      (That generates “duplicate comment”, so not the answer. Mystery remains.)

    131. Stoker says:

      Woody Woodpecker is obviously a BUM bandit.
      His opening gambit on this thread was to ridicule its contributors.
      Game over, debate lossed Woody! Good for the post count though!

    132. gordoz says:

      just read @Woody says –

      What a wee immature idiot.

      GTF

    133. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Whenever I hear any politician declare his/her option is for a multinational agreement , I just know that they are “at it”, and have no intention of voting to remove nuclear weapons.”

      Completely agree, Albaman. Such weapons are simply immoral and obscene and anyone, like Smith, who says he would use them should be led away by the men in the white coats. I wonder how many CND members will be in Labour’s 65%? And how many here in Scotland voted No, despite a Yes vote guaranteeing Trident removal? That really stuck in my craw.

      I see Pull-String (“There’s a Trident in my boots!”) Woody is back.

      Dearie, dearie me.

    134. Paula Rose says:

      The “you” in the “you are posting too quickly” is plural so don’t take it personally.
      Btw nice piece on current by Robert Peffers on the previous thread.

    135. Ruby says:

      Papko

      Can I ask you what it is you are trying to achieve by posting on Wings?

    136. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 17 July, 2016 at 1:28 pm:

      ” I could not imagine Scotland continuing to actually store another country’s nukes. It’s unimaginable and probably unacceptable internationally.”

      Very true, galamcennalath, but have you considered this aspect of the matter?

      The international anti-proliferation laws and particularly those of the USAsians that are against any new nations becoming nuclear powers.

      If the United, Kingdom ceases to exist, (and as a two partner United Kingdom it legally will cease to exist upon the Scottish Kingdom’s withdrawal from the union), then both nations Status Quo ante is reversion to their former status as two individual Kingdoms.

      Then both are in exactly the same position and neither has any legal right to claim to still be a United Kingdom as neither kingdom is united with any other British kingdoms. Indeed there were no other British Kingdoms in 1706/7 and the Kingdom of England then already included both Wales & Ireland.

      So both kingdoms will be nations that never were nuclear powers. What will the international bodies like the UN or NATO have to say about that?

      More to the point, what will those nations with ambitions to become nuclear powers have to say?

    137. Ruby says:

      I do hope Papko & Woody are posting here in order to convince others of the merits of being in the Union.

      I have a few questions to ask.

    138. Thepnr says:

      Owen Jones is just another Tory that wears Labour colours. Most of them do, no reason to be surprised that a man like him says he would “press the button.” Most of them would. One million dead, so what says a wannabe Labour leader.

      Well he says he would at least. Actually pressing it is something else entirely.

      I just can’t understand the Labour party anymore. Woody and Papko make more sense as delussioned as they may be.

      Who in their right mind would listen to them? So why would anyone care what a non entity like Owen Jones has to say?

      I believe it’s the end of days. The Union is over, Scotland has been left with no other choice.

      Trident hasen’t been the trigger austerity has and it’s disgusting to know that the likes of Owen Jones did not vote against this.

      He and his like are history I’m certain of that, even their own members hate them.

    139. Meindevon says:

      Thanks Crazycat re Smith and EVEL.

    140. Thepnr says:

      Apologies for being a Pap. Smith and Jones all sound the same to me.

    141. Macbeda says:

      One reason for Trident is so that England, posing as UK, can keep their place at the big boys table called the Security Council.

      The just wanna be a big poser with damn all substance.

    142. Clootie says:

      Owen Smith appears on the scene bidding for the title thickest man on Earth when Woody turns up to snatch it from his grasp.

      Do we really have to explain the obscenity of nuclear weapons or their relevance in practical terms in the 21st. Century.

    143. Ruby says:

      In a joint article for the Guardian, Labour’s shadow defence secretary, Clive Lewis, and Emily Thornberry, promoted from shadow defence to shadow foreign secretary following mass resignations from Labour’s frontbench, said the vote was “shameful” and “a political game”, when parliament could have been discussing the Nice attacks and the coup in Turkey.

      “There is nothing new in this debate – a vote in principle was agreed in 2007 – and nothing whatsoever will happen as a result,” they write. “It is being held simply to sow further divisions inside the Labour party. The Tories know that those with strongly-held principles on either side of this debate will vote with their consciences, and the media will turn that into a fresh Labour crisis.” Guardian

      Is this true is the vote tomorrow just a political stunt?

    144. Ruby says:

      This Trident vote is a contemptible trick. That’s why we are abstaining
      Parliament will decide on Monday if the UK’s nuclear submarine fleet will be replaced. But it’s simply a ludicrous exercise in political game-playing

      As the world reels from the Nice massacre, on Monday parliament should be expressing our solidarity with France and discussing what we need to do to protect our own citizens from similar attacks. We should also be debating how to stop Turkey’s government using the weekend’s events as justification to increase repression of free speech and democratic opposition.

      But instead, the government will spend Monday turning national security into a political game. A seven-hour debate will be held, not to ask parliament what should be done to fight the current threats of extremism and instability but on whether, in principle, Britain should have four new nuclear submarines ready to use in 30 years’ time.

      There is nothing new in this debate – a vote in principle was agreed in 2007 – and nothing whatsoever will happen as a result. It doesn’t authorise any new funding, or establish any new mechanisms for the delivery or oversight of the programme. Guardian

    145. Ruby says:

      ‘Tom Watson argues that we can’t afford not to replace our nuclear deterrent

      Tomorrow’s Trident vote is taking place even though parliament has already made the funds available to renew our nuclear deterrent. So this is little more than partisan political game-playing from the Tories.’ Observer.

    146. Robert Peffers says:

      @Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 2:02 pm:

      “Quite the thing that, yet your are determined to plough headlong into another referendum that you will lose.”

      What evidence do you offer for that conclusion, Woody?

      But they will win another referendum, Woody. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that can prevent it.

      Do you know the quotation of Victor Hugo that states:-

      “All the forces in the world are not so powerful as an idea whose time has come”.

      ” … I wouldn’t be so sure that they would get rid of the nuclear base”

      Please yourself about that, and you are entitled to hold that opinion, Woody. Thing is that the Scottish parliament is overwhelmingly opposed to nuclear arms in Scotland.

      Other facts speak for themselves. There is only a single Tory MP elected to Westminster from Scotland, There is only a single Labour MP elected from Scotland to Westminster. The rest are opposed to nuclear arms.

      Could you repeat the rest of your diatribe, Woody? In reasonable English, or even in Lallans Scots, Scottish Standard English or perhaps the Gaelic? I’m dreadfully sorry but I couldn’t make sense of what you were attempting to impart to us.

    147. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – I was just quoting Owen Smith’s opening remarks in the first 18 secs. “I believe that the world has got more insecure more volatile over the last few years”. So our nuclear weapons haven’t made the world safer.

      Maybe he could think about why the world is more volatile and insecure. Could our aggressive attacks on Arab countries have provoked them to retaliate? Did he also vote to bomb Syria?

      Corbyn opposes this madness but, of course, he wants to get rid of him.

      I hope the Scottish people take note of tomorrow’s vote and resolve to rid ourselves of this plague.

    148. ScottishPsyche says:

      Surely the prospect of Donald Trump in the Whitehouse should make even the most ardent fan of WMD slightly worried?

      He plans to increase the US defence budget and seems so thirsty for conflict that it seems madness to have anything associated with the US military on our soil.

      Are the UK government still in thrall to the US even after Chilcot?

    149. Stoker says:

      Britain’s Weapon of Mass Destruction
      http://www.banthebomb.org/archives/wmd/index.htm

    150. Ruby says:

      Capella

      Good point!

      Every Scottish MP with the exception of David Mundell is opposed to Trident.

      Ruth Davidson in her Mail on Sunday article claims that all the MPs except David Mundell have got it wrong because polls say people in Scotland want Trident.

      It’s quite weird that all these pro-Trident voters didn’t vote for more pro-Trident tories?

      From The Times:
      On Labour feuding, she cackled: “Labour is still fumbling with its flies while the Tories are enjoying their postcoital cigarette, after withdrawing our massive Johnson. Sorry, that’s not even my speech; that’s just a text from Stephen Crabb.”

      Ah so it was Stephen Crabb who wrote her script! I thought it might have been Jackson Carlaw! Pretty weird text to send a female colleague.

    151. Ruby says:

      How true is Tory Ruth’s claim re polls?

      http://cnduk.org/campaigns/no-to-trident/opinion-polls

    152. Ruby says:

      https://archive.is/5R9Ft

      ‘Opposition to full renewal is highest in Scotland, the home of the Trident fleet. Some 38 per cent of Scots oppose any form of renewal, while 36 per cent back full renewal and 26 per cent favour non-nuclear submarines.’

    153. Grouse Beater says:

      Papko: “Yet Scottish nationalism is civic and English nationalism is all blood and soil.”

      Absolutely.

      We offered continued integration with England but under self governance. We do not want to govern England, nor turn it into our weekend holiday resort and playground, or steal its chickens from the coup.

      We can defend England if attacked but decide not to join it in wars abroad we think illegal or unwise. We have no imperialist ambitions. A country too wee, too poor and too feckless isn’t going to take to the boats and pillage Sweden, now is it? Our gunboat will be too busy protecting our oil wells and fishing territories.

      Listen – know thine enemy: do you think you could turn your energies to protesting about all of England’s legal off-shore refuges? There are many and varied. That way might return some fat taxes to England, taxes to alleviate England’s faltering NHS. The EU had just voted to ban offshore bases when England dumped the EU.

      You’ll get nothing out of Scotland by spitting at it for being assertive about its civil rights. No taxation without representation….

    154. Dr Jim says:

      @ Papsqueeke

      Now we’ve just gotten rid of the Woodlouse talking his England domination crap, are you made of sterner stuff do you think
      Just because you have more people in one country doesn’t mean that gives you any right to control another when that other rejects your control

      Get the point Papsqueek Scotland doesn’t like what you say and what you do and what you are, so you are rejected

      That means take NO for an answer and take care of your own country, if your loyalty is to England that’s fine and dandy and as it should be and good luck to you with it
      Half of my family is English and while they don’t agree with me they have at least learned one thing

      Scotland’s affairs has become none of their business as I hope very soon that England’s will be none of mine

      Maybe one day the Welsh might have a proper say in their land too or the Irish manage to sort their differences
      The point as I’m sure you must be grasping by now is the Independence movement in Scotland is trying to do something FOR our country

      What you and your kind do is preach AGAINST a peoples rights instead of FOR something
      That makes you unacceptable and you stand for nothing

      As do all Unionists

    155. heedtracker says:

      The UK holds about 1.4% of the world’s nuclear warheads

      Rancid The Graun’s got a thing on it
      Numbers of nukes by country. So much for START.

      80
      Israel
      120
      India
      130
      Pakistan
      215
      UK
      260
      China
      300
      France
      7,000
      US
      7,300
      Retired*
      Reserve/non-deployed
      Russia
      Guardian Graphic | Source: Federation of American Scientists May 2016 estimate. *Awaiting dismantlement

      England can easily stash Trident on the south coast. French Trident’s sub base is in Brest, which is much the same terrain and geology as the Devon coast. Coulport’s meant to be massive though.

      TeamGB nuclear holocaust, be part of it, 1.4% of it.

    156. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/h54xlem

      Interesting one where people in Scotland are asked a different question from people in England

      I wonder if this is the poll Tory Ruth was referring to.

    157. Smallaxe says:

      Owen Smith,Woody and their like will survive a nuclear attack
      along with the rest of the Cockroaches. 😉

    158. Grouse Beater says:

      Postulating the way to avoid stockpiling nuclear bombs is to stockpile more nuclear bombs is clearly deranged.

      That argument advocates a balance of terror.

      But no one can tell if a first strike will stop retaliation, or even be a timely or accurate first strike

      After a thermonuclear war the only question to ask is:

      Will the survivors envy the dead?

    159. heedtracker says:

      Nice round up on why planet toryboy’s using a £200bn weapon to nuke Labour.

      https://archive.is/Wg8RM

      Fallout girl Kez says YES to Trident, SLabour says No, Westminster Lab say YES, constituent Labour say Maybe, although BBC Scotland freak show piled in with Kez to nuke the SNP last year.

      “Kezia Dugdale: Trident savings ‘can’t be spent 12 ways’
      Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale says any money saved by not renewing Trident “can’t be spent 12 ways” unlike the position set out by the SNP.”

      All the UKOK gits have their own shithead agenda with UKOK nuclear war.

    160. Paula Rose says:

      Nicely put Grouse Beater at 8:01pm

    161. Ruby says:

      There are 8 nuclear armed nations USA,Russia,France,UK,Isreal,India,Pakistan, and North Korea out of 140 odd at the UN Who do we deter? Why are we in the minority club of 8? Should we be?

      Interesting question posted in the comments of
      https://archive.is/UeDmQ

    162. Grouse Beater says:

      “Warmongering politicians are the ‘clear and present danger’. They should be removed from power immediately, their authority taken from them.”

      More here: http://wp.me/p4fd9j-1bI

    163. crazycat says:

      @ Capella

      I know you were quoting Owen Smith – I was agreeing with you that he was being stupid.

      Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

    164. John McCall says:

      Labour: putting the fist in pacifist.

    165. yesindyref2 says:

      Well, as Kevin Hague tweeted 6 hours ago (about 15.00 17th July):

      https://twitter.com/kevverage/status/754675946658131968

      we must avoid facts & figures because voters understanding economic reality is unhelpful to our cause“.

      Perhaps that’s why he hasn’t published my reply to his blog, which I posted on the 16th July early morning – more than a day earlier than his tweet, my reply to his second reply to me:

      dear yesindyref2

      you really should read my reply to you above – and get back to me after you’ve read the linked report (and had time to digest what the word “effective” means in my post)

      i’m kidding obviously – you won’t read the report because you’re clearly far too committed to indy at any cost to risk having your faith challenged by inconvenient facts
      15 July 2016 at 11:45

      https://web.archive.org/web/20160717195438/https://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-and-case-for-scottish.html

      So here it is, just in case he “lost” it:

      ——————————
      “Well, I came here looking for “fiscal transfer”, after seeing it used a few times in forums for a figure of £15 bn (including one that said from England to Scotland), to see if this blog was its origin. Yours at least is down to £9 bn, though also incorrect.

      Saw that blog entry and paper (you’re deflecting to) weeks ago thanks, would take twice as long to pull it apart as it took to write it.

      Anyway, for this: “Scotland currently receives an effective fiscal transfer from the rest of the UK of over £9bn pa”.

      “Scotland currently receives”. How do you know? GERS 2014-15 came out in March 2016, 2015-15 isn’t due until March 2017, and we’re now into 2016-17!
      “an effective fiscal transfer”. No such thing, there is either a fiscal transfer or there isn’t.
      “from the rest of the UK”. No, fiscal transfers in the UK happen between central government and devolved governments, or vice versa. There is no mechanism for transfers between devolved governments, and England doesn’t even have one, nor does the rUK.
      “pa”. No, there is no regular figure, it can vary from year to year.

      On top of that, there is no official published figure I could find for any year for the “fiscal transfer”.
      The UK Government in its anti-independence white paper – an equivalent of part of the Scottish Government’s pro-Independence White paper – both with a corresponding bias – has this:

      Fiscal transfers are automatic across the UK, which supports higher welfare and pensions spending in Scotland. (also techincally inaccurate, nevermind)

      Take a look via PESA at 2014 for instance and you get UK pensions + Welfare = £256 billion, Scotland = £22 billion. £22 billion is approximately the same per capita for Scotland as £256 billion for the UK, so according to the UK Gov’s definition of “fiscal transfer”, the “fiscal transfer” for 2014 was a big fat £0 – either way.

      That’s why I quite kindly suggested you look up what “fiscal transfer” actually means.

      Come back to me if you find another official definition of “fiscal transfer” that suits your £9 billion figure.”
      ——————————

      I guess my comment is unhelpful to his “cause”. Whatever that is.

    166. Robert Peffers says:

      @Woody says: 17 July, 2016 at 3:52 pm:

      “I’ve had enough of this pish. This shitty echo chamber has only proved correct my gut feeling about the loathing you lot have for the majority of your country men and women.”

      Err! ‘Scuse me, Woody, but what country do you refer to?

      It cannot be Scotland as the majority of Scots are against nuclear weapons and even against nuclear power generators.

      If you actuarially imagine our country to be The United Kingdom”, could I request that you sound out that title, “United Kingdom”. You know like they used to teach the children to read?

      K-I-N-D-O-M spells Kingdom. It does not spell out C-O-U-N-T-R-Y.

      There is a very good reason why it is named The United Kingdom and that reason is because it actually is an agreed union of only two, equally sovereign, formerly independent Kingdoms.

      There are the signatures of only the two kingdoms extant in the British Isles in 1706/7 when the treaty that gave birth to the United Kingdom was signed.

      Now here is a stone cold fact – there is not a single mention of the words, “country”, or, “Countries”, in the Treaty of Union document and neither word is mentioned in the two former Kingdoms parliamentary Acts of Union.

      Yes the United Kingdom does indeed contain four countries but the Kingdom of England annexed the Principality of Wales in 1284 by the Statute of Rhuddlan and the Kingdom of Ireland Parliament passed, “The Crown of Ireland Act”, that placed the Irish Crown on the English Kings head in 1542.

      By the way – regarding expertise of nuclear matters. I was employed by the Admiralty for 50 years in Rosyth Dockyard.

      When the first RN nuclear submarine was on its way to Rosyth Dockyard I went out with the Pilot Cutter and boarded HMS Dreadnought by the May Island and sailed in with her to the Dockyard.

      That was because I built the first complex safety system of supplies for docking a nuclear submarine during refit, repair or refuelling and I needed to fit the connectors to couple it to the safety systems.

      Later I was involved in the installation of the CCTV systems used during these dockyard operations. Later still I was transferred into the RADIAC Lab. That is :- “RAdiationDetectionIndicationAndComputation.

      It involved the calibrating, testing, repair and maintenance of the various equipment involved in detecting all forms of radiation and the radiaton’s effects upon living things. That was both in the Lab/workshop and on board HM Ships.

      So, Woody, you could say I do know a thing or three about nuclear weaponry and submarines.

      Put it this way – you cannot understand how the instruments work electronically unless you understand at least a good deal of Nuclear Physics and even a bit of Quantum Physics along with your electronics theory.

      You cannot calibrate, for example, a Geiger Counter without being able to handle safely the highest to the lowest radiation of all types that the instrument can detect.

      Incidentally we also did Chemical & Biological Warfare detectors.

      Guess how we could managed to calibrate them without knowing and handling biological and chemical warfare samples? We covered all RN gear from Newcastle to the Northern Isles and also did a bit of work for the Army, Air Force and on occasions even the Scottish National Museums and Hospitals.

      It is illegal, and very dangerous, to use uncelebrated instruments.

    167. Papko says:

      Ruby says:
      17 July, 2016 at 6:19 pm
      Papko

      Can I ask you what it is you are trying to achieve by posting on Wings?

      @Ruby
      I enjoy reading the rev’s articles and the interesting points raised.I am interested in Scottish Independence and this site is dedicated to it.

      I read the comments and when I see what I consider an anomaly I ask for a clarification.

      I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example.

      I am not a “Troll”, as having a differing viewpoint, is what living in a democracy is all about.

      Woody is arguing from a different POV it seems, nor do I have strong opinions on Trident, I accept most of the arguments here for its phasing out.

      Being outvoted form time to time is part of living in a democracy.

    168. Connor McEwen says:

      Did some bugger in Australia Prof. W. Mitchel or other, no wind up daein that. Gie money fur ordinary folk instead of the Banks and arms companies.

      http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=33911.

      Deja vu . There is one somewhere

    169. Dr Jim says:

      I see you’re still here Pap and you think we live in a democracy yet 58 of 59 of our MPs say NO to WMDs, the Scottish parliament votes overwhelmingly NO to WMDs and that is the representation of Scotland’s wishes yet Westminster says well actually we don’t care what you want Scotland you’re having them and you’re also paying for them AND we’ll transport them right through the centre of your most populated city at night by truck whenever we want AND you’ll just have to put up with the over 100 radiation leaks into the Clyde as well

      Do you see what irritates Scots about that, because if you don’t or if you don’t care you prove the point as to why we want rid of you people
      Like I said Unionist thugs are rejected

    170. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Yer a rogue. 😀

    171. crazycat says:

      @yesindyref2

      Hague’s tweet that you quote isn’t about a “we” that includes him, or his cause (as your last sentence implies you think).

      It’s meant to be a description of Peter Bell’s way of thinking.

      It matches his last sentence to you.
      I assumed you realized that, right up until the very end. Then I wasn’t so sure.

    172. Papko says:

      Like I said Unionist thugs are rejected

      😉 civic to the last Dr.Jim.

      I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.

      Everyone in Scotland has a vote in the GE, elect MPS and they go to join the other 650, as our country is divided into constituencies, and the majority in any particular constituency gets to elect their MP.

      (Normally over last 40 years the Govt in power is voted for by 35- 45% of the electorate).

    173. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby,
      My experience of Papko is, he’s not an ankle biter or an incessant yapper. He’s curious to learn and doesn’t repeat one line opinion moronically as a troll will when he gets replies that answer his point. You’ll note he tends to move on. I’ve never found him unintelligent.

      Got to sign off soon – I begin Monday at 8am filling 280 tons of 200-250mm rock into 200 gabion baskets piled one upon the other, to shore up my hillside, or ‘brae’ as I should call it in Scotland. (Gabions: a Roman invention.)

      I see it as a metaphor for Scotland protecting itself.

      Now where did I put my steel capped boots?

    174. Ruby says:

      Papko says:
      17 July, 2016 at 9:08 pm

      I read the comments and when I see what I consider an anomaly I ask for a clarification.

      I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example.

      Ruby replies

      Ha! Ha! Ha! That is a cracker!

      You are asking for clarification on behalf of people you imagine are reading these comments but are afraid to comment themselves!

      Do you hear their voices in your head? Do you imagine them as Unionists or Independence supporters?

      OK so I know what you have to offer these readers you imagine are too scared to comment what do you have to offer people who are not afraid to comment? Why should I read your posts?

      You say you are not a ‘troll’ but are you a wind-up merchant?

    175. Connor McEwen says:

      BERKSHIRE. JOABS. LOBBYISTS. JIST OAR THE ROAD FAE WHEESHTMINSTER.

      ARMS LOBBYISTS including ROYALTY. SAY NO MORE.!!

      ROYALTY ARE BIG SHAREHOLDERS IN NUKES AMONG OTHERS

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      @crazycat
      That wasn’t the point of my posting – or attempted posting on the blog, I just added that to my posting here because it was there – and pertinent to his not putting up my comment.

      @Macart
      I try my best 🙂

      I’d have liked to have had a go at other blog postings, but they’re so convoluted, so long (and boring), and he switches in and out of total figures and per capita figures and back (obviously not a scientist or mathemetician), I’d have had to write about 20 pages to demolish them. This was an easy target.

    177. ScotFree1320 says:

      This from Der Spiegel:

      “Neither London nor Paris is playing a central role in the current debate over disarmament. France and Britain make the point that the United States and Russia must disarm themselves to the level of the two European countries before any need will arise for further negotiations.

      This situation is highly unlikely to say the least!

      —-

      Meanwhile, back in the real world:

      Russia poised to unleash “Son Of Satan” ICBM.

      It is, according to the Russians, “capable of delivering up to 12 warheads via its multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicle (MIRV) payload at a range of 10,000km.”

      “The RS-28 boasts “an array of advanced antimissile countermeasures” plus “higher speed performance”, designed to thwart any anti-ballistic missile (ABM) system.”

      The missile is, “capable of wiping out parts of the earth the size of Texas or France”.

      Russia hopes to completely replace the ageing R-36M2 – of which it has deployed 58 since 1988 – by 2020.

      So just these 696 warheads alone are able to lay waste a whole continent.

      —-

      Russia has always kept pace with US technology and has often been ahead: First man-made satellite to orbit Earth: Sputnik, First human to orbit Earth and return safely: Gagarin.

      Russia also possesses the record for the biggest explosion ever produced by humans. The Tsar Bomba, detonated on October 30, 1961, remains the most powerful man-made explosion in human history.

      Get this: “One participant in the test saw a bright flash through dark goggles and felt the effects of a thermal pulse even at a distance of 270 kilometres (170 mi). The heat from the explosion could have caused third-degree burns 100 km (62 mi) away from ground zero.

      A shock wave was observed in the air at Dikson settlement 700 kilometres (430 mi) away; windowpanes were partially broken to distances of 900 kilometres (560 mi). Atmospheric focusing caused blast damage at even greater distances, breaking windows in Norway and Finland.”

      That’ll be the same, non-nuclear armed Norway then.

      The nuclear arms race really is utter madness.

    178. crazycat says:

      o/t but quite amusing and worth bearing in mind:

      https://archive.is/OlZGC

      We of course are wise to such tricks.

    179. Ruby says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      17 July, 2016 at 9:44 pm

      Ruby,
      My experience of Papko is, he’s not an ankle biter or an incessant yapper.

      Ruby replies

      You obviously know him better than I do. I read one of his posts and decided to waste no further time reading any more. He went onto my Barbara Carland list.

      I normally have a one strike and your out policy however today I was totally bored with the debate about Labour idiots so I decided to wind-up the trolls.

      I didn’t find his/her answer to my question as to why he/she is posting here very convincing.

    180. Robert Peffers says:

      It is illegal, and very dangerous, to use ***uncelebrated***
      instruments.

      Damn that bloody spool chocker!

    181. Robert Peffers says:

      Grouse Beater says: 17 July, 2016 at 9:44 pm:

      ” … Now where did I put my steel capped boots?”

      Probably, Grouse Beater, it is next to your steel crash helmet or even on the other side of your tinfoil hat.

    182. Grouse Beater says:

      In the event of a thermonuclear strike on a single nation that attracts no retaliation, here are the recuperation statistics (not recovery, recuperation) as calculated by the US Defence Department, expressed in hundreds of thousands dead:

      DEAD………….. ECONOMIC RECUPERATION

      2,000,000……… 1 year
      5,000,000……… 2 years
      10,000,000…….. 5 years
      20,000,000…….. 10 years
      40,000,000…….. 20 years
      80,000,000…….. 50 years
      160,000,000……. 100 years

      You can bet not a single British Trident-luvvin politician knows those figures if asked.

    183. derek says:

      If the Rev will allow me, not as well penned as his article on the same subject but I’m trying to get it out to as many as we can..

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152330161197762&set=gm.654807421276787&type=3&theater

    184. crazycat says:

      @ yesindyref2

      Thanks for the clarification. It was your reference to “his cause, whatever that is” that perplexed me. It’s now clear that was a general remark, not aimed specifically at his tweet.

    185. j says:

      Papko says:
      17 July, 2016 at 9:31 pm

      I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.

      I was an engineer in Barr & Stroud for over 35 years, it does not take a lot to sink a submarine especially at depth. With the advent of autonomous deep water drones it becomes a much easier task. Trident is obsolete now and in the future more so, flogging a dead horse is the mark of an idiot or a lunatic, take your pick!

      I wish for my descendants to grow up in a free and fair Independent Scotland. As for England/Westminster/Elite in their collapse of the empireas they call it, they are welcome to it, they will be remembered as thieving. murdering barstewards.

    186. Papko says:

      @Ruby
      You are asking for clarification on behalf of people you imagine are reading these comments but are afraid to comment themselves!

      Do you hear their voices in your head? Do you imagine them as Unionists or Independence supporters?

      Dear Ruby
      There are 300k unique visitors to this website every month ? (I am sure the REV mentioned something on those lines)

      Yet only a few dozen regular commentators (say 50?),why do the other visitors not post?

      I say because they may be too shy, be they Yoons or Nats, (300k is the popn of Fife approx,how do I know what every person in Fife thinks),I don’t, I just guess, and equally so do you.

      Ruby, if we were meeting in a Church Hall in Kirkcaldy say ,and people were speaking and discussing a topic, and someone asked for a a clarification or made a point seldom made.

      And the other people in the Hall asked “why are you commenting, speaking even, you are a Wind up merchant etc”

      Would you describe such a meeting as “civic”.

      Would you say that being able to speak freely without fear of intimidation or mockery is important in a free country.
      or would you prefer silence, would you rather one view point was heard, and some folk looked at the floor sullenly.

      You’d do well to think of them that listen silently, they have a vote like everyone else.

    187. Gary45% says:

      Most cost effective way to save pennies on Trident?
      The Tories have a massive Johnson in Europe now, he is basically a WMD, I reckon you could buy him a rubber gimp mask and an orange for a lot less than the cost of Trident.

      The Israelis will tell America what the UK will do regarding Trident, we have NO SAY in the matter.

      Ask our southern cousins if they would still replace it if it was being kept on the Thames?
      I know the answer.
      Indy Ref 2
      Tick Tock.

    188. Dr Jim says:

      You do have to laugh at these Yoon clowns with their our country crap, they used to think that about other countries they stuck their flag in and called it theirs until those countries threw them out kicking and screaming

      America was a big one if I remember rightly, those guys fair gave the Empire a right good kicking and then learned how to be just as obnoxious afterwards, so much so the “British empire” sucks up to everything the Americans tell THEM now (you will have WMDs you will you will) OK then
      Poodle springs to mind there

      I wonder if they told the Yanks they were being blood and soil Nationalists when they were trying to hold on to that country, I know they told the same story to the Irish

      It’s amazing how the rhetoric never changes and kinda boils down to If you won’t do as you’re told you’re lesser mortals and you’re misbehaving and you don’t know what you do because we know better

      And yet every country who’s dumped the wonderful UK hasn’t ever asked to be let back in, not one e.v.e.r

      I wonder why not eh

    189. yesindyref2 says:

      @crazycat
      No, thanks for pointing it out. I did see it was after retweeting a quote from Peter Bell, but tacked it on to the posting here. Just as well I didn’t refer to it though in say a comment on his blog, as it leaves an easy denial and total evasion “yesindyref2, read my tweet, that wasn’t the point I was making you fool”. But of couse it was “smart-arse” incidental to the point I was making. I must do better!

    190. call me dave says:

      O/T

      Hi! Anyone know if there was news in the court from earlier in the week?

      Labour MP Marie Rimmer on trial over ‘referendum assault’

    191. Grouse Beater says:

      Ruby: “He went onto my Barbara Carland list.” 🙂

    192. ahundredthidiot says:

      O/T

      sorry, have to share. two loony yoonys at work shouting their mouths off when NS is on Andrew Married show. you know…’once in a life time…jimmy kranky…better together…rangers back in the league….immigrants are a problem’.

      Problem for them is this. 8 other guys in room, all keeping their own counsel. Two years ago, with milder language, it was roles reversed.

      Come what MAY.

    193. Ruby says:

      derek

      Very interesting & informative article.

    194. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @ahundredthidiot –

      Hang in there.

      ‘He who laughs last…’

      😉

    195. Paula Rose says:

      Papko honey you are rather late to the reality – many of us are here cos the nice clever ones make us welcome and answer our questions.

    196. James Barr Gardner says:

      Papko says:
      17 July, 2016 at 9:31 pm

      I am not sure what the vote in the Commons will be for Trident , would expect 400 or so of MY MP’s out of the 650 we have altogether , will vote for it.

      In reply.

      I was an engineer with Barr & Stroud (Suppliers to the Royal Navy for over 100 years). It does not take a lot to sink a submarine especially at depth, with the advent of autonomous deep water drones which are speedily evolving. Therefore Trident (Vanguard Class Submarines) at present is obsolete and it’s Successor Class Submarines are obsolete even before they are designed.

      So it’s bit like flogging a dead horse, if you do it you’re either an idiot or a lunatic, take you pick !

    197. ahundredthidiot says:

      ian B

      I hear you. I don’t think we’ll be laughing though, not initially. Times will be challenging, but worth it in the medium to longer term.

      We have too much going for us which is probably why UK wants to hang on to us.

      I think, for me, the most depressing thing is that our fellow Scot

    198. ahundredthidiot says:

      fat fingers, shit phone

    199. Ruby says:

      Papko

      Sorry you’ve lost me.

      When someone in a Church Hall in Kirkcaldy asks for clarification is he/she asking on behalf of the other attendees who he/she imagines are too shy to ask for clarification?

      You ask:
      ‘Would you say that being able to speak freely without fear of intimidation or mockery is important in a free country.’

      That depends on what the person is saying and what you mean by intimidation & mockery. I would say people have the right to boo someone or give them a slow hand clap if they think they are talking rubbish or being highly offensive.

    200. Cadogan Enright says:

      GA Ponsonby Has to be one of the two most devastating critics of the BBC, Challenged by Prof Robertson

      Their focus on State Propaganda allows the Rev to blast the wider Corporate Media

      http://indyref2.scot/bbc-scotland-elites-and-other-british-nationalists

      Wish we had them as a separate column on wings

    201. ahundredthidiot says:

      ….is partially brainwashed

    202. Ruby says:

      Grouse Beater says:
      17 July, 2016 at 10:45 pm

      Ruby: “He went onto my Barbara Carland list.” 🙂

      Ruby replies

      I hope you’ve got your jammies & nightcap on and you are tucked up in bed preparing yourself for a day of hard labour shifting 280 tons of rock!

      Is it Edinburgh rock? You might need to call on the Rev to help you shift that amount of candy.

    203. Grouse Beater says:

      “Nicola Sturgeon will consider holding a second referendum on Scottish independence in 2017 if the Westminster government starts to leave the EU without settling the UK-wide approach promised by Theresa May.

      Asked on the BBC’s Sunday Politics Scotland programme about her position should article 50 be triggered in December – as proposed by the newly appointed Brexit minister, David Davis – without the Scottish government being “on board”, Sturgeon said that was why she was making preparations for a second independence referendum.

      “Of course at that point that would be an option and a decision that I would have to consider,” she said.”

      Let’s hope the weather is great that month!

      Night all.

    204. Michael McCabe says:

      @ Grouse Beater 9-44pm Have you Checked Your Feet ? Really like the links you put up.

    205. heedtracker says:

      I think there are many people who may read these comments and be afraid to comment themselves, so I step into the breach so to speak and set an example”

      Paps, the voice of the people, the peoples Paps, Paps, peoples champion, Paps to the people you great big skid mark.

      All that does is show how bought and paid for tory shyters and brain-washer’s all give themselves the same “peoples champ” tags. Where I’m from its the neo fascist “Voice of the North” Press and journal but all these spivy outfits do it to. Daily Record, Scotland’s champion, rancid The Grain, Facts are sacred, they’re really not in the least for that crew but its got that cheezee sanctimony upper middle class spivs think suits them.

      The Peoples Paps. Forward with Paps. Paps is. Are you? No Paps, No Comment. Sunday isn’t Sunday without the Sunday Papko. Paps you can use. All the Paps that’s fit to Pap.

      May the Paps be with you Papko.

    206. ahundredthidiot says:

      is capitalism a sin?

      is Communism an option?

      Shit. my jury is out.

      or is there in an inbetweeny?

    207. yesindyref2 says:

      OT
      You’ve got to admire Alex Salmond’s style. Interviewed by the Daily Mail he said that Cameron should put Andy Murray forward in his retirement Honours list. He said Andy Murray would be “the most popular Scottish knight since Sir William Wallace”.

    208. yesindyref2 says:

      Papko, oh Papko.

      Doesn’t come across as a troll to me. Nor even a Unionist, just someone perhaps with an open inquisitive mind. Curses!

    209. Chic McGregor says:

      The likely fallout map for one accidental Trident missile warhead detonation at Faslane. (assuming prevailing Westerly wind.)

      http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f390/chicmac/FaslaneFallout.jpg

    210. Capella says:

      @ crazycat – I got it. 🙂
      Just wanted to get the quote right as he is so irrational. Maybe that’s a marketing technique!

    211. defo says:

      Boules in the mooth Nelson ? What a wank !
      How many boabys did he sook to slither up the greasy pole ?
      More than a few, by the sound of it.

      Just another erse with no part to play in an independent Scotland.

    212. Chic McGregor says:

      Cadogan Enright

      Agree. Also Paul Kavanagh.

    213. Valerie says:

      @Papko 9.31

      You surely understand the democracy deficit you have described there? Scotland taking all the risks, the contamination, the danger, with no say?

      Scotland can never hold sway in Westminster with 59, yet EVEL was introduced to further cut back on any say.

      Whatever Scotland has, or doesn’t have, should be decided by the people who live here.

      300 years of this ‘union’ and where are the benefits? I accept there are unionists who are sentimental, but for people like me its about social justice, fairness, democracy nearer to the people, and just plain logic.

      I don’t often explain it, and we are portrayed as rabid nats, or romantic Braveheart types, and they exist too, but to many it’s about living in a more just society, that we help shape.

    214. Chic McGregor says:

      The red line in the sand for Nicola is very simple.

      If Brexit talks do not incorporate, up front, a serious attempt to see how Scotland can remain in the EU, then she withdraws from those talks.

      End of.

    215. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Chick.

      I played around with that web site a couple of years ago. Good that it lets you choose wind direction, for example.

      Here’s an example I came up with:-

      http://dundee3js.freeforums.org/download/file.php?id=475

      http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

    216. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Apologies, “CHIC”!

      8=)

    217. Vambomarbeley says:

      I have been in nuclear bunker command centers. When you see the graphs for working out the fall out according to size of war head and wind. It’s bloody scary when you see it laid out on a map table.
      You would think we would have learnt from the war in Japan and the various nuclear accidents.
      Once one missile is in the air there is no going back. It ends with two men crawling out of a shell hole bayonet in hand trying to kill each other.
      Apptely known as MAD. Mutually assured destruction.

    218. Papko says:

      Paps, the voice of the people, the peoples Paps, Paps, peoples champion, Paps to the people you great big skid mark

      Thx for the measured, balanced response @Heed tracker

      You do have a way with words.

      With Independence , Scotland will need a an official escort for foreign dignitaries, when they arrive at Holyrood.

      Put a Sioux Indian headdress on and skip along in front of them with your cheerful chants.

      😉

    219. Brian McHugh says:

      Having Nuclear Weapons doesn’t appear to be making France any safer.

    220. Papko says:

      Valerie says:
      17 July, 2016 at 11:53 pm
      @Papko 9.31

      You surely understand the democracy deficit you have described there? Scotland taking all the risks, the contamination, the danger, with no say?

      With all respect Valerie, I don’t see the deficit you speak of, as everyone in the UK has the same vote equally, that is cast every 5 years

      Were each nation to be treated equally, then you would only need one representative for each nation, and they alone would speak for each one.
      Our FM would speak for the Scots, but she could still be outvoted by the other 3.

      I can agree with much of the arguments against Trident as espoused on this thread, its obsolete etc , but If I am out voted, I lump it.
      Just like Brexit, or the referendum on PR, we have to respect the majority for democracy to work.

    221. Ruby says:

      ‘With Independence , Scotland will need a an official escort for foreign dignitaries, when they arrive at Holyrood.

      Put a Sioux Indian headdress on and skip along in front of them with your cheerful chants.’

      I think I’d better put him back on my Barbara Cartland list.

    222. Papko says:

      300 years of this ‘union’ and where are the benefits? I accept there are unionists who are sentimental, but for people like me its about social justice, fairness, democracy nearer to the people, and just plain logic.

      I think the country is great and everything is fine, but if its not enough for you. I wonder what the solution can be, or indeed if it can be solved.

      I don’t often explain it, and we are portrayed as rabid nats, or romantic Braveheart types, and they exist too, but to many it’s about living in a more just society, that we help shape.

      I totally respect your views Valerie, by asking questions and clarifying, I hope to reconcile them.

    223. Ruby says:

      ‘With all respect Valerie, I don’t see the deficit you speak of, as everyone in the UK has the same vote equally, that is cast every 5 years ‘

      Definitely going back on my Barbara Cartland list.

    224. Ruby says:

      http://tinyurl.com/l5wj2hm

      A video for Ruth Davidson, David Mundell, Kezia Dugdale, Owen Smith & all the other pro Trident politicians to watch before they say their prayers and go to bed!

    225. Meg-merrilees says:

      Fascinating interview on R4 Westminster Hour tonight. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07klcy1#play
      listen in at about 43 minutes in.

      Trident is NOT an independent deterrent;
      USA knows where our subs. are at any time through Waterspace system and can destroy Trident missiles with their extremely powerful Aegis anti-ballistic missiles which are currently on 30 warships in the Atlantic. They own Aldermaston and provide us with explosive material for nuclear warheads.

      Dr Dan Plesh of London University said that no British PM could be confident, even at very short notice, of firing Trident without America preventing it either through a cyber attack, physical interruption of communications, hunting down our submarines as they know pretty much where they are or by firing Aegis missiles at them.

      It’s not a question of whether a British PM could order it to be fired more a case of whether America would stop it!

      I tried a longer post but it doesn’t seem to have appeared. Apologies if the longer version shows up later.

    226. Tam Jardine says:

      I find it interesting Brian montieth is suggesting the next indyref will not be a yes no question but rather the more neutral remain very leave.

      That seems nonsensical and designed to confuse. A positive vote for indy would be to both leave one union and remain in the other and a negative indy vote would be to leave one and remain in the other.

      So I would suggest that a simple yes v no option on the proposition would be much more sensible and clear for the electorate.

      Lots of egos and alter egos on here tonight. Wingers and those who disagree but clearly have found a home here and enjoy this site.

      Peace to all- we are not killing each other so I can take a little sledging and dispute.

      Tam out x

    227. Vambomarbeley says:

      Thing to remember is that trident comes out of the defense budget. It doesn’t have its own budget. So the conventional forces suffer shortages because of it. So it not really money to be used on anything else except defence. Then the the forces would actually have the gear they need and decent facility’s.

    228. crazycat says:

      @ Papko

      Within the last couple of days, I’ve seen a statement, attributed to the MoD, that Trident is too dangerous to be based in England.

      I don’t have a proper reference for this, so have not been able to assess how reliable it is, but if it’s genuine, are you really ok with the implications of it?

      If it’s too dangerous to be based in England, it’s too dangerous full stop, and I’m not happy having it foisted on me by MPs from England (or Wales or Northern Ireland).

      I understand that you are regarding the UK as a whole, and if it is renewed, it has to be put somewhere, but even the MoD seems to be admitting that it does not matter if Scotland is endangered, so long as England isn’t. (A stupid attitude, since fall-out doesn’t know where the border is. Maybe it’s really only the south-east it’s too dangerous for, but there would be knock-on effects even there.)

      Does that really not annoy you? It’s just democracy?

    229. Sandy says:

      “Labour can’t hurt anybody with a number puzzle”.
      Except themselves. Reference Jackie Baillie.

    230. Brian McGrath says:

      So when I was at school back in the 90’s my mate and I set out to do a project on what would happen in the event of a nuclear attack on Scotland and the UK.

      After gaining as much information as we could and reading up about it, we both decided not to do the project as it was one of the scariest things we had ever read about.

      Our school library also had a book , gifted from a school in Hirohima that showed the effects of radiation on people (Women and children) that made us sick.

      I really don’t think anyone can really understand how truly horrifying these weapons are and even building and maintaining them should be seen as a crime against humanity. They aren’t precision weapons…the Mass part in the WMD gives that away.

      Apologies for a link to the Daily Mail but the images they have are pretty specific.

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2101508/Want-know-effect-nuclear-bomb-home-town-Theres-app-that.html

    231. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      My personal feeling is that the next Indyref’s question should be the same as 2014, to avoid confusion:

      “Should Scotland be an independent country?”

      By the time that next Indyref vote comes around, I doubt that the majority of people in Scotland will be ignorant of the implications of what they’re actually voting for.

      An independent Scottish nation, with the freedom to choose the kind of country they want to live in.

    232. yesindyref2 says:

      @Papko
      The UK is part of the EU, and there’s the council of Ministers which make the main overall decisions. Thing is, that for vital issues like whether the EU grows closer or changes its treaties, or adopts a trade treaty with the USA or Canada, the UK gets a veto in the CoM. Therefore whatever it is being proposed doesn’t go ahead.

      The UK also didn’t have to consult with its fellow members about its decision to leave the EU, it held a Referendum unilaterally, voted Leave, and there’s nothing to stop it. The EU doesn’t get a say in that decision, even though the UK is currenly a member. Well, that’s free and open democracy, in that way at least, the EU is fully democratic.

      Scotland is a devolved part of the UK. But there is no council of Ministers in the UK. Scotland doesn’t get to veto trade agreements, changes to human rights, or memberships of the EU. We also in theory can not hold a Referendum on leaving the UK without the UK’s permission. In other words, the UK doesn’t have a free and open democracy. Scotland can not leave it without its permission, nor can we choose external relationships, nor can we decide who to trade with or not, that is up to the Central Government – Westminster. Nor can we choose whether or not to have nuclear weapons on our soil.

      Scotland however is part of both the UK and the EU. 55% voted to stay in the UK. 62% voted to Remain in the EU. If we stay in the UK, then we leave the EU, and continue to ahve all our external realtionships controlled by the UK, and it’s the UK decides whether or not to place nuclear missiles on our soil, bury nuclear waste under our rocks. subsidise green energy, and control the rate at which our energy providers provide electricity to the grid. As a full member of the EU, well, that’s all up to us.

    233. yesindyref2 says:

      What I remember from the Cold War days is that if a nuke was air-detonated over Holy Loch, at that time a US nuclear base, there would be a tidal wave 100 feet high up and down the Clyde. That was me drownded then.

    234. K1 says:

      crazycat?

      From Daily Record 8th January 2013:

      ‘TRIDENT nuclear bombs are too risky to be based in the south of England, but it’s fine for Scotland, according to the UK government.

      The Ministry of Defence says that the nuclear submarines currently housed on the Clyde could not be moved to the Devonport base in Plymouth because an accident there would endanger too many lives.

      Responding to a Freedom of Information request from the Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, the MoD said: “Neither the Devonport naval base nor the dockyard safety case permit the berthing of an armed submarine.”
      At least 11,000 Plymouth citizens could be killed in a worst-accident scenario envisaged by the MoD, and that is deemed an unacceptable risk.

      Why then does the MoD insist it’s fine to keep these killers anchored just 40 miles from Scotland’s biggest city and centre of population? Put starkly, Scots lives are worth less. Back in 2000 the MoD envisaged a hypothetical accident involving Trident in Faslane. It concluded “societal contamination” resulting from such a disaster was OK.

      No wonder CND have thrown their weight behind an independent Scotland.
      It’s the only way to get rid of these obscene weapons, whether we live in Devon or Dumbarton.’

      http://archive.is/zW7yp#selection-2455.0-2482.0

    235. galamcennalath says:

      Chic McGregor says:

      “The red line … a serious attempt to see how Scotland can remain in the EU, then she withdraws from those talks”

      Nicola is currently using vaguer terms, probably being open in exploring all options. However, when it come down to putting something concrete together, I agree that full EU membership should be the objective.

      Obviously, WM thinks simply having open trade is sufficient. Well, it certainly shouldn’t be. The EU is also about all sorts of rights which we would lose as part of isolationist UK.

      Basically, there should be no Brexit at all, only EngWexit. We should be staying.

    236. geeo says:

      I am just going to say one thing here, the ready brek eaters were way ahead of nukes in the ability to make folk ‘glow in the dark’.

      “Ready Brek, we will light you up cheaper than Trident, and your skin will not peel off…”
      ….
      I’m not kidding here, you never see Trident and Ready Brek in the same room, hmmm…
      ….
      I was going to have you all imagine a big button with the number 50 on it, and Boris standing over it, glowing in the dark.
      Theresa behind Boris, captured like a shadowy creature, drearily illuminated by Boris’s glow.
      Opposite this dour dark scene is Nicola with her tartan heels and bright shiny SNP/EU combi badge , smiling in the aura of brightness emanating from her badge.

      Behind her are EU leaders beckoning Nicola over, as the relevent european nations words for ‘Welcome’ fill the air around them.

      The caption which sets this scene is simple, Ready…..Brexit ?
      …….
      Don’t blame me for the above, blame the indulgence of a ltd edition Blair Atholl 5 year old malt.

      Goodnight all. ??

    237. tony Coyle says:

      Regarding Trident, Vanguard, and Successor: they are the equivalent of investing heavily in fixed-position infantry tactics after the First World War. Stupid, outdated, and doomed to failure. Even worse than that they’re a boondoggle that can’t even be used. The biggest challenge in in the modern world is not a ‘rogue nuclear state’ – it’s non-state terrorism: nukes, submarine launched or not, won’t do anything to solve or mitigate against that.

      With regards to NATO: Scotland would be a valued member even if all it did was provide access to its waters. The Scottish waters of the North Atlantic are tactically much more valuable than the North Sea/Irish Sea and English Channel which are all that would remain to England post independence.

    238. yesindyref2 says:

      The European Policy Centre with, ironically. Van Rompuy as president (Tusk’s predecessor as Council president), has published a paper by Graham Avery of “Scots are EU citizens and their citizenship can’t be taken away” fame, which sets out better than anything can, all the pros and cons for the case for EU membership continuation.

      http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

      Recommended reading – just 4 pages. A warning:

      … That would leave Scotland the option of declaring independence unilaterally, which would weaken its international position.

      Just aboout all goodies though:

      Since Article 50 will modify the geographical scope of the EU, it could take account of the Scottish case.

      no country has ever been obliged to join the euro or Schengen unless it wished to do so

      Scotland’s chances of remaining in the EU are good.

      From the economic point of view, it is in the EU’s interest for it to remain: from the political point of view, to refuse Scotland after its vote to remain would
      be a bad signal

      Finally (well, earlier than some quotes):

      On these questions of procedure, the choice of Articles is an important matter for examination by legal experts, but what will be decisive for Scotland’s accession is the political will of Europe’s leaders.

      RealPolitik – what we used to say before, like.

    239. yesindyref2 says:

      Mmm, timed 5 minutes after my posting here, a reply to my posting on the “average” blog appears, along with my posting.

      So it appears average thinks that the “onshore deficit gap” using “underlying” figures from GERS is a fiscal transfer from the rUK to Scotland. Ooops. And that “cherrypicking” pensions acording to the UK Gov’s own definition is, well, cherrypicking. Oh dear.

      Anyway, I achieved what I wanted – the tactics of limited objectives. Doesn’t look like wayback wants me to rearchive so here’s the other one (just in case of any edits!):

      http://archive.is/pApFl

    240. Dorothy Devine says:

      reported in the Telegraph March 2014 ,a report I missed,

      “Military chiefs have launched a major investigation after a Royal Navy warship accidentally fired a torpedo at a nuclear dockyard.
      HMS Argyll was moored at Devonport Naval base in Plymouth when the 9ft missile suddenly shot out of its starboard side during a training drill.
      Workers watched in disbelief as the tube-shaped projectile flew through the air before blasting a hole in a security fence and slamming into a storage container.
      The torpedo was an unarmed version used for testing drills so it merely thudded into the metal container and did not explode.
      Nobody was hurt but shocked Navy bosses ordered an urgent investigation into the incident that took place inside a high security area where Britain’s nuclear submarines are refuelled and repaired.”

    241. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      There’ll be hammers along any minute now for that link Dads. 😀 LOL

      Another interesting wee tidbit which is left off from GERS:

      http://www.gov.scot/Resource/0046/00469028.pdf

      You’ll find page 17 interesting. I saw it posted yesterday by Lindsay Bruce on Revs twit feed, but its been doing the rounds since.

    242. heedtracker says:

      Hopeless slam Paps. Just stick with your

      “I think the country is great and everything is fine, but if its not enough for you.”

      Why you’re bothering to Pap us anyway Paps is another UKOK mystery. Tory BBC led media does it all a bit better. Look at it Paps, the Daily Paps, Sturgeon very bad glory.

      2 o’clock Daily Mail yesterday

      Nicola Sturgeon suggests she has a veto over when to trigger Brexit process after Theresa May put Scotland in a ‘very, very strong position’

      Brigadier Mustard, CHiPs, United Kingdom, 16 hours ago
      This woman is the Gerry Adams of SNP. She is dividing Scotland and turning many English against the Scots.
      ReplyNew
      424
      11360 likes

      Eleven thousand, three hundred and sixty Papkos, Paps?

    243. Dorothy Devine says:

      And from the Guardian Jan 2013,

      Britain’s nuclear-armed submarines cannot be moved from Scotland to the Devonport naval base in Plymouth because they do not have safety clearances to dock there.

      The disclosure has huge implications for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) if Scotland votes for independence and a new government demands the withdrawal of the nuclear fleet.

      The MoD has revealed that the safety arrangements for Devonport do not permit the presence of submarines carrying Trident nuclear warheads. The MoD’s safety experts are not considering changing that.

      The problem is that the dockyard is in a densely populated area and, if there were an accident, thousands of people would be at risk. The worst accident scenario envisaged by the MoD would kill up to 11,000 people in Plymouth and would not meet the official criteria for what is acceptable, according to a new report.

      So stuff the Scots and their massive population within 20 odd miles of Faslane eh?

    244. Dorothy Devine says:

      Guardian Jan, 2013,

      Britain’s nuclear-armed submarines cannot be moved from Scotland to the Devonport naval base in Plymouth because they do not have safety clearances to dock there.

      The disclosure has huge implications for the Ministry of Defence (MoD) if Scotland votes for independence and a new government demands the withdrawal of the nuclear fleet.

      The MoD has revealed that the safety arrangements for Devonport do not permit the presence of submarines carrying Trident nuclear warheads. The MoD’s safety experts are not considering changing that.

      The problem is that the dockyard is in a densely populated area and, if there were an accident, thousands of people would be at risk. The worst accident scenario envisaged by the MoD would kill up to 11,000 people in Plymouth and would not meet the official criteria for what is acceptable, according to a new report.

      So stuff us eh?

      I am getting duplicate message so my apologies if this turns up twice.

    245. Macbeda says:

      I wish people who write would provide some clarity of definition.

      Avery’s very good paper is a case in point (6:52am).

      I keep getting these mixed messages of British government or UK government.

      Which is it?

      It surely cannot be both or am I just a thicko?

    246. heedtracker says:

      JC’s hit the button. Rancid The Graun says

      Jeremy Corbyn
      Jeremy Corbyn vows to vote against Trident renewal as Labour divisions deepen
      Labour leader tells the Guardian he has been campaigning for peace all his life and will put nuclear disarmament at the heart of his re-election campaign”

      Toryboy’s deploy UKOK’s £200bn+ nukes and wipe out New Labour, JC fires nukes straight at his own red tory Labour coup. Its the UKOK red and blue tory Westminster tactical nuke war now. It’s only £200+bn for the sucka taxpayer, dumped on the jocks.

    247. Ruby says:

      I’ve made bold the parts of the article I find most interesting in this Sunday Times article.

      http://tinyurl.com/js6yycg

      ‘Waiting for a national approach puts the Brexit ball in Sturgeon’s court’

      Following on from preview:

      commitment to public service.

      It was supposedly Jamie Webster, a trade union convener in the Govan shipyard, who termed Sturgeon a “nippy sweetie”, but he says that he also called her “an able yin” and fully intended it as a compliment. And as we all know, former Tory minister Ken Clarke described May as a “bloody difficult woman … I get on all right with her and she is good.”

      What these descriptions say to me is that both leaders are tenacious in pursuit of what they believe in, and are the kind of politician with the dedication as well as the courtesy to be fully briefed for every meeting that comes in their line of duty, and to know the issues inside out.

      In an age when mediocrity is no bar to rising in politics, and when you could be forgiven for thinking that soap opera script writers have taken over from the spin doctors, Scotland and the UK as a whole are fortunate indeed to have two such grown-ups in charge. It is their very ability that makes the political contest about the Union and future of Scotland so fascinating.

      No-one is denying that Sturgeon has an immensely difficult job if she is to translate the 62% vote in Scotland to remain in the European Union into a majority for independence in a future referendum. But I think that navigating the UK out of the European Union, and trying to harmonise the competing visions and multiple versions of what Brexit looks like, is even harder.

      This was summed up for me in May’s comment after her apparently friendly meeting with the first minister on Friday, when she said that: “I won’t be triggering article 50 [to leave the EU] until I think that we have a UK approach and objectives for negotiations — I think it is important that we establish that before we trigger article 50.”

      It was interpreted as cleverly putting the ball into Sturgeon’s court, and making Brexit a game for all the British family. I’m not so sure.

      Decades ago, a prime minister may have been able to credibly claim a single national interest when voting patterns were broadly similar north and south of the border. But those days are gone, and the previously steady pace of Scotland diverging politically from the rest of the UK went into warp drive in the aftermath of the independence referendum. It seems light years instead of less than two since the three examigos — David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg — rode to the rescue of the “no” campaign with the vow of a much stronger Scottish parliament.

      There is a book of Irish political quotations called Phrases Make History Here, starting from 1886 and setting out the power of language in changing the course of a nation.

      We need not go back anything like as far to see the same potency of words in the Scottish political debate, and the impact of a broken pledge.

      In the run-up to the 2014 referendum, Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson said unequivocally in a TV debate that voting “no” “means we stay in, we are a member of the European Union”. That was more than 18 months after Cameron first announced his in/out referendum policy.

      Scotland getting dragged out of Europe against its democratic will — with “project reality” turning out to be the opposite of the “no” campaign’s rhetoric — is a breach of faith so profound that many who were convinced that we were Better Together in 2014 are seriously considering the case that we are better independent now.

      If the prime minister waits for a single “UK approach and objectives for negotiations” to materialise, then article 50 will be getting invoked round about the same time as hell has frozen over.

      Scotland voted decisively to stay in the European Union, for the single market and freedom of movement, and it seems clear that these fundamental aspects are what the first minister’s standing council on Europe are stressing.

      “Remain” means remain.

      South of the border, a relatively slim “leave” majority was achieved by demonising immigrants, and trashing freedom of movement and the importance of the single market.

      I wish May luck in divining a single UK negotiating stance out of these diametrically opposite positions. There is at least poetic justice in the fact that the three Brexiteers — David Davis, Liam Fox and Johnson — have been handed Mission Impossible. If Scotland’s referendum result is not respected and arrangements made accordingly, another independence referendum would certainly be justified.

      The UK government has no detailed Brexit plan yet, so there is logic as well democratic validity in seeking to shape it on the basis of what Scotland voted for. May passed the onus to the Scottish government on Friday — and, like all skilled leaders, Sturgeon likes nothing better than to have the ball at her feet.

      @KEVINJPRINGLE

      IF MAY WAITS FOR A UK APPROACH, ARTICLE 50 WILL BE INVOKED ABOUT THE SAME TIME AS HELL HAS FROZEN OVER

    248. The Isolator says:

      How true Heedtracker@7.46 how very British of them?
      This will be the same Adam’s invited round to No10 for tea when Bliar was “fixing” the Good Friday Agreement on behalf of the Yank slush funders to the IRA.

      They would gie ye the right boak… hypocritical shitehawks.

    249. Ruby says:

      yesindyref2 says:
      18 July, 2016 at 4:58 am

      http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_6836_scotland_and_the_european_union.pdf

      Recommended reading – just 4 pages. A warning:

      “… That would leave Scotland the option of declaring independence unilaterally, which would weaken its international position. ”

      Ruby replies

      That looks very interesting.

      Are we bothered about our international position as a warmongering nation being weakened?

    250. Alan Mackintosh says:

      @ Yesindyref2, dunno if you saw this RT on Stus twitter via Lindsay Bruce but thought you would be interested.

      https://twitter.com/RogueCoder250/status/754649610891751424

      Oil and Gas processed on rigs and exported appears in “Unknown Region” figures. This was £37.3Bn, almost twice the value attributed to Scotland, £19.6Bn (2014 figs)

    251. Robert Louis says:

      If you want to find out how craven, complicit, pathetic and subservient the ‘UK’ media is, you need only watch two interviews on national TV with the English defense secretary Michael Fallon this morning.

      At around 0730, he was interviewed by the facelifted Eamonn Homes on SKY, where not one thing Fallon said was challenged – or true. Apparently, Scotland benefits massively from trident, in the form of 7 or 8 thousand jobs – something which is comletely and demonstrably untrue. The number of staff who work on the NUCLEAR warhead Trident submarines is 520 – and most of those are contractors who do not live locally. This went completely unchallenged by Holmes, Then we were told Scotland had to have the nukes, as Scotland voted to stay in the uk, and that is that. Well done ‘NO’ voters.

      The real killer however, was the assertion that trident is the largest employment site in Scotland – this is utter bullsh*t. The single largest employer in Scotland is the Scottish health service, by a very large margin.

      Again around 0740 Fallon interviewed by the blatantly propagandist and anti-Scotland mouthpiece, the BBC. In that interview, not one of his false assertions was challenged, and he was allowed to cite North Freaking Korea as a threat. Here’s the news flash for the BBC, North Korea is still technically at war with South Korea, so it is utter nonsense to cite North Korea as a nuclear threat to the UK. The first missile strike by North Korea would be at ONE country, South Korea.

      I despise these weapons being put in my country by an English dominated, undemocratic Government not elected by Scotland. It is an utter obscenity. They are located right next to Scotland’s largest population centre – something NO OTHER COUNTRY would eve do. But then, in English eyes, Scotland doesn’t matter anyway. Scotland is expendable.

      If they are so good, put then in England, right near the home counties. near Tory voting places. Then see how popular they are.

      So angry at the conniving subservient media in this country, and these lying ***** red and blue Tories in London who happily talk of nuclear submarines and warheads, just as long as they are nowhere near their house. See how their Tory voters in surbiton, Surrey would appreciate having Nuclear warheads transported through their major cities (they are driven right through the centre of Glasgow)every few weeks.

      To hell with the lot of them.

      Below is the link to a very good piece, with relevant cited data, from Wings. Worth reading.

      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-chocolate-teapot/#more-58677

    252. Ruby says:

      Macart

      ‘There are also a number of traders who act within the UK on behalf of foreign companies overseas, operating as ‘ghost presences’. The RTS system categorises this ghost trade as ‘Unknown region’.’

      I’m asking this on behalf of all the shy readers who are afraid to comment. 🙂

      Can you please clarify in simple terms what the above means.

    253. Ken500 says:

      The Tories cheated,lied and brought electoral rules in 29 seats. They won 25 of them with a 12 majority. When will the Law be enforced and the cuprits apprehended. They should never have won the GE and made all this mess. The SNZp should have held the balance of power and Scotland could have stopped them. If. labour had got it’s Act together. Not fallen into dissent to help their associates the Westminster Unionists criminals, who break the Law. The U.K. Is finished.

      The reason why the Westminster Unionists criminals and their want to leave the EU is so they can continue tax evading with impunity. They do not care who they destroy to do it. They have been sanctioning and killing innocent people for yeses so they can tax evade and embezzle £Billions of public money for them and their associates. The EU was clamping down on tax evading.

      17million who voted out of 63Million population is not a majority. The majority in the UK want to remain in the EU. They are being taken out again their will. The Tories will never win another election after this chaosphere. The Tory/Unionists are finished for another forty years. The UK Union is finished. Within two years Scotland will be gone. Their WMD will be gone. They can o longer strut the world as warmongering MSP’s murderers their power will be diminished.

      The US is at civil war, The population, as expected, is turning on it’s selves and the US administration because of the Gun Laws and weak administration. So is France, The US/UK and France have been illegally bombing the Middle East for years, leading to their own demise. Impoverishing the world and destroying the world economy for the personal wealth of the corrupt politicians. The people are abandoning democracy and taking up direct arms against each other.

      Scotland is well out of it, becoming a prosperous European country that does not engage in conflict with it’s neighbours. Or their, cheating lying, warmongering politicians, Trident is a complete waste of public money. It is costing Scotland £Billions and endangering it’s existence. Greenham Common 20 mins from London was shut in 1992 because of protests. If Westminster Unionists want to maintain it and continue the danger. Moor it in the Thames and they can pay for it. A few contaminated hulls alongside might concentrate their minds.

      Scottish Oil revenues paid for Canary Wharf and Tilbury Dock etc. Thatcher secretly took the lot and claimed Scotland was subsidised. They can destroy it coming out of the EU. No more trading Euros by the London banking sector. An increased deficit to bear. Any country in Europe can trade overseas in the the rest of the world but they will not get the advantage of the EU trade deals. Or grants and favours which will cost more and a list of revenues,

      Scotland could be building frigates to patrol it’s shores and stop Scotland being invaded with tons of drugs destroying communities and damaging the economy. It is drugs that are the world danger and destroying countries. The Tories are finished in any case, as they play out their charade. Complete and utter criminals. Never ever trust a Tory. Or a Unionist politician. They are selfish, greedy, ignorant back stabbed out to defraud the public purse for their personal gain. Most of them should be in jail. Thank goodness the SNP are trying to keep Scotland safe from the duplicity.

    254. Macart says:

      @Ruby

      Extraregio, the unknown region. That black hole certain folks bang on about isn’t nearly so black, or indeed much of a hole. More a divot.

      The economic territory of a country can be broken down into regional and extraregio territory.

      The extraregio territory is made up of parts of the economic territory of a country which cannot be attached directly to a single region.

      The extraregio territory consists of, among others, national air-space, territorial waters and the continental shelf lying in international waters over which the country enjoys exclusive rights; territorial enclaves, embassies, consulates, military and scientific bases; deposits of energy and natural resources outside the continental shelf of the country, worked by resident units.

      The nomenclature of territorial units for statistics (NUTS) provides a single, uniform breakdown of the economic territory of the European Union. NUTS is the territorial breakdown for compiling regional accounts.

      ‘Nevertheless, a Scottish share of North Sea oil is never formally alluded to as part of Scotland’s net fiscal position and is treated by HM Treasury as extra-regio resources.’

      And moving on.

      Good catch on that Times piece Ruby. Can’t say as the fella is far wrong on his reasoning and yes this most recent turn of events in Brexit is indeed as he says ‘a breach of faith so profound’. But that’s not the beginning of such instances, its merely the latest in a long line of breaches of faith over the past 23 months.

      Hopefully it will be the last.

    255. Alan Mackintosh says:

      Ruby, I’ll comment if I may. The unknown Region is used to indicate (afaik) economic activity that it is difficult to allocate to one geographical area. But if you look at my link a couple of posts above regarding oil and gas exported “off-rig” you’ll see that “unknown region” may be used as a way of obfuscating things.

    256. Stoker says:

      The following article is by The Torygraphs Chief Political Correspondent and shows exactly why The BUM are failing – deception!

      Sturgeon: I can block UK exit from Europe
      http://archive.is/uT5vu

      Note how the article never quotes Nicola saying those words or anything even remotely close. The one quote they do have states:
      “I think we are in a very strong position. That is a position that I am going to use as well as I can.”

      I’m 100% sure fellow Wingers will agree that comes nowhere near what The Torygraphs headline claims. Unionist liars!

    257. Bill says:

      Unknown Regions are Grid operators – oil fields directly exporting oil to EU countries. It’s how they’ve hidden the oil wealth from you.

    258. Ruby says:

      Cheers guys thanks for all the info re ‘unknown region’

      What about these ‘ghost traders’ what are they up to?

    259. Bill says:

      During indyref1 I like many of you had to learn stuff I didn’t want to learn in order to persuade people with facts, I didn’t want to learn about GERS or BoE fiscal framework, I’d have been better off studying for my unlimited Chief Engineers exams but that went on hold.

      Now I’ve got to learn about Regional Trade Statistics!

      When will this madness end?

    260. Smallaxe says:

      @ Robert Louis

      I saw those interviews this morning,it was disgusting the way
      everything said was taken as gospel.It only reinforces that
      the MSM is our clear and present danger.Somthing must be done
      about them and quickly! Peace.

    261. Breeks says:

      Why is it whenever people talk about nuclear weapons, I feel there is an idiot standing very close by.

      I do not want them. I do not want Scotland to have them. I never, ever, want Scotland to use them, nor even threaten to use them. If Scotland ever was to use them, or facilitate their use, then I would carry the burden of shame it brought upon me as a Scot until the day I died. Which, in all fairness, might only be a few brief minutes.

      Whatever happened to those talks about the UK’s mothballed second carrier being refitted as an emergency hospital ship and fast reaction vessel to move aid quickly to scenes of global disasters? If we can afford to squander billion after billion sneakily toting the vileness of nuclear filth around the world, then I’m damn sure we could run to a state of the art hospital ship on permanent standby.

      What is wrong with us that we value warships above aid ships? I feel quite sure they would run to their full capacity, unlike the beached whale that is Trident. (Quite literally too – HMS Astute). I know it is a fanciful pipedream, but imagine if the EU sponsored an Aid Carrier full of doctors, rescuers, aid helicopters, disaster relief equipment, generators, de-salivation units, communication equipment, temporary shelters, and imagine too if Scotland had given due cause for Europe to name it the EAC Caledonia.

      I know it’s a pie in the sky pipedream, but it happens to be the kind of Scotland which I want see, and something to be proud of berthed at Faslane for the self same strategic speedy access to the high sea and North Atlantic. Imagine the despair lifting in the hearts of broken children who have lost their homes and families to hear the Caledonia is standing off shore and help is on its way. Imagine too the chronic irony if she was steaming past idle American carriers and heading full speed for Los Angeles…

      And no, I don’t care if it’s called the Caledonia, but it might be rather splendid if it was…

    262. Lenny Hartley says:

      Vambomarbeley @1256

      Think the changed the accounting of Trident to the defence budget when the clunking fist was in charge,mpreviously it used to be the the f.o. Budget.

      I may be wrong but that’s what the old grey matter is telling me.

    263. Robert Peffers says:

      @Papko says: 18 July, 2016 at 12:26 am

      “With all respect Valerie, I don’t see the deficit you speak of, as everyone in the UK has the same vote equally, that is cast every 5 years

      The reason YOU don’t see the deficit the lady speaks of, Papco, is because of your own personal closed mind political leanings. These you share with the rest of the despicable unionist cabal.

      As to that question of UK democracy, it can only be democracy if it works correctly with the electorate all treated with equality. In this dis-United Kingdom that equality does not exist – and it never has.

      The situation at present has been manipulated by the Westminster Establishment to such a degree that the inequality is now at its widest ever gap between the English and the rest of this dis-united kingdom.

      This is why we now are about to see the end of the United Kingdom Parliament and, in all probability, the end of the two kingdom royal realm. Whether Scotland continues to be a royal realm, with non-sovereign monarchy, post independence is a rather moot point.

      First of all the United Kingdom is legally a union between only two equally sovereign Kingdoms. Westminster has never subscribed to that legal fact and the actual relationship has been manipulated to be a union of three, unequally devolved, countries, (That is three unequally devolved countries ruled over by the country of England that effectively treats itself as the United Kingdom.

      England is legislated for by Westminster under English law. It adjusts all its legislation to, (mainly), comply with the differing legal systems of the other three countries.

      England also funds itself directly as the United Kingdom with United Kingdom direct funding. While the Westminster Establishment decides, by the Barnet Formula, the block grants it will disburse to the other three underling countries – no block grant for the Englanders, though.

      Then the Westminster Establishment decided to introduce EVEL, (English Votes for English Laws). Thus we have N.I. getting the most devolved powers and the highest per capita block grant. Next comes the Scots, with the Welsh trailing at the back of the devolution queue and England not in the queue but directing what everyone else will get and do.

      Democracy has always been very nebulous in the misnamed United Kingdom but has never been so far from real democracy as it is today.

      Hence the United Kingdom, as such, is about to end and the biggest losers of that ending will, without doubt, be the English, (and in particular the city state of London). This is because they are at present the main gainers and thus have the most to lose and lose it they will.

      All great empires have eventually fallen and that is the main lesson World history has taught since the dawn of time. The second World history lesson teaches that that all great empires will fail to prevent it happening.

    264. Slightly O/T, but not really.
      There is a view that Smith has been added to the Labour leadership mix to ensure that the Maoist Militant Corbyn wins a second time, and this will provide the perfect excuse for the 170 odd Tony Blair New Labour Red Tories to break away and form the ‘New’ SDP, with four of five Lib Dems joining them, and a target of victory in the 2025, or 2030 GE’s Down There.
      The majority of Unionist, Red Blue or Jaundiced Tories, support Trident penis extension Down There. NIMBY rules. It’s only Scotland in ashes if ‘oops!’ happens.
      Ian Murray and Liar Carmichael may soon be in the same Party. Now there’s a thought.
      Kezia Dugdale will return from her US State sponsored Neo Liberal indoctrination with yet another moral and political dilemma.
      Will she join the New SDP, pro Trident, comfortable with ‘the filthy rich’, or will she become a Trotsky Militant overnight? I suspect that she will ‘go large’, and join the neo conservatives.
      Meanwhile Scotland is expected to suck it up. We are expected to meekly accept Isolationist England and a Tory Government of any hue for whom we didn’t vote in perpetuity.
      It is, as they say, a no brainer.
      Independence soon. There is now truly no alternative.

    265. Les Wilson says:

      Call kaye, guy saying 40,000 jobs reliant on Trident.Apparently the figure dealing with them in Scotland is officially 520 so where are the rest based?

      Undoubtedly there will be a fair amount in England, but we are talking 25 miles from our biggest city.I think there would be uproar if they were based anywhere in England.

      Scotland is at high risk due to being a first strike target, via something we do not want, but it is the best place for England to base them, their safest place for them, far away from the warmongering elites.

      If England wants these weapons then they should shift them to their own patch and leave Scotland free of them to pursue our own path in the world. Why do callers in the kaye show, not storm the call in to point that out and do it strongly, funny how the dangers to us personally are not spoken of.

    266. gordoz says:

      Ahhh morning off work in Scotland ….

      Accidentally came upon Call K there, on ‘UK state broadcaster’ propping up the pro Nuclear side of the debate on trident renewal.

      Arguing with armed forces Nuclear ‘testing’ Vet going over the history ???

      Prof K : “That’s the History” … “But we’ll still have nuclear energy in Scotland even if we get rid of trident”

      Now there’s brains for ye’ ???

      Didnae think o’ that ya wee cybernat yesser di ye !!

      (OK – Last part my words but perhaps her thoughts; or “Touche ya cyberbass?”)

      What a muppet.

    267. Dr Jim says:

      We’ll take the next caller now, so you’re against nuclear weapons, Yes I am, Oops sorry we have to go over to the weather now

      I’m afraid that once again the United Kingdom of England will tell Scotland to F..k off again, but we all know that don’t we

      In the news today Scotland is being misrepresented and outright lied about in the papers on the telly and on the radio and until WE do something about it, it will be ever so

      Our FMs words are lied about every day our MPs our MSPs and every supporter of Independence is and will continue to be lied about

    268. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Anyone catch the full name of the pro-Trident tory arse on CallK? Morris or Maurice something-or-other…

      Depressing amount of utter stupidity on show.

      All the Brexit bollocks aside, the democratic outrage this vote represents would surely count as ‘a material change’ worthy of triggering Indyref2.

      Mundell, The Bushbaby From Hell, yet again receiving attention and racking-up more brownie points with his WM handlers for no other reason than being the odd man out…

      Sickening.

    269. ahundredthidiot says:

      Boris Johnson in emergency landing.

      Looks like the knives are still out, I mean, you would think they would’ve learned their lesdons from bodging the job on Farage!

    270. Ian

      Might be Maurice Corry from Helensburgh. Tory councillor and newly elected MSP

    271. Chic McGregor says:

      “Prof K : “That’s the History” … “But we’ll still have nuclear energy in Scotland even if we get rid of trident””

      And if we get rid of nuclear energy we will still have Uranium and Radon in the rocks of the Highlands.

      Not to mention Strontium, which was actually discovered there. Hence the name and the only element name of Gaelic derivation.

      Clearly, he is not a level of risk man.

      A nuclear power station accident may be more likely but the consequences nowhere near as catastrophic.

    272. Greannach says:

      I had never heard of Owen Smith before last week. Watching his interview confirms why his profile has been so low.

    273. Dr Jim says:

      I saw this morning a peace campaigner suggesting moving the WMDs to England if they wanted them so much but of course even if they do want them what they don’t want is to have them actually IN England
      England is a country that gets all up in arms about a windmill going up and spoiling the view so the very idea that they would house their own WMDs is I’m afraid in the realms of fantasy, plus the UK Government would not consider moving them there because the protest marches against it would be in the millions

      As long as we’re stuck as part of the good old UK of England we’re stuck with their waste disposal people plants as well

      Although I do know a man who knows a man who can remove them in a day, he says

    274. Stoker says:

      Regarding BBC’ UKaye show IanB writes:
      “Depressing amount of utter stupidity on show.”

      Aye, and to think, the BBC ploughs £31m every year into Radio Scotland. Thank goodness i don’t give them a penny!

      How the BBC spends its £5B annual income:
      http://archive.is/dT1GG
      _____

      Les Wilson wrote:
      “Why do callers in the kaye show, not storm the call in to point that out and do it strongly,

      Les, for all we know they probably do at least try but all calls go through a vetting procedure and it is up to some faceless producer or whoever to decide what calls get aired and what calls get binned. It’s all about control and manipulation – balance and truth just don’t get a look in. It’s The BBC (aka London’s Voice)!

    275. gordoz says:

      It is a real shame that in Scotland the people only get to hear one directive, UKOK, via the the airwaves and TV networks. (And 90% of press coverage is the same).

      Are there no plans for alternative broadcasting stations or media groups? This really needs sorted now.

      Heard Stuart Cosgrove / Dr Eamon Oneill going on about it via John Beattie show at one point, but seems to have died a death.

      It would have to be reg subscription driven as advertising would be a major problem as many companies are happy to promote their support for the Union; it appears those who support Independence appear to be to be much more shy.

      Small local stations with Yes sympathies would be good be we all want somewhere to go to get our point over without the usual interruptions (if you know what I mean).

      (A yes registry of companies and suppliers who support indy would also be excellent)

    276. Tam Jardine says:

      Did anyone catch the stat K was using to try and tell the SNP guy there was not a majority against trident.

      It went something like: 36% are opposed to trident, 34 percent support trident and want it replaced (I know it is the subs and not trident that are being replaced etc) and the rest were supportive of non nuclear submarines.

      It sounded absolutely ridiculous and I wondered if anyone had the actual stats she was trying to use.

      The whole premise of the programme was amazing- not ‘do you agree with trident renewal’ but rather (I paraphrase) ‘your mp (who is almost certainly SNP) is against trident: how do you feel about that’. It is presented then that the SNP are not representing public opinion.

      There is one word for it: propaganda.

      Re extra regio- there is a breakdown on what makes up the extra regio amounts on the graph linked to above. I will see if I can find it again.

    277. Ken500 says:

      2nd rate Tory reject will not be deciding Scottish policies. It will just make Tory politicians even more despised. The Tories are finished. They were not elected but cheated and lied to win an election. They broke electoral rules. Punishable by prison.

    278. Mike d says:

      We’ll never get the truth out till we get devolved broadcasting.

    279. gordoz says:

      A big point that often missed is that you simply cant fire one missile as a warning. One goes they all go, and as soon as they launch they are detected and an all out response is automatically on the way.

      So .. when you fire yours, you are automatically dead.

      Trident = Suicide (Who knew ‘Pro life suicide’ as a deterrent)

      Yaaay lets vote for it; whats not to like; yipee ky Kaye M F !!!!

    280. gordoz says:

      @Stoker

      That’ll be yer filtering process then.

    281. Tinto Chiel says:

      Enjoying my holiday reading, “How David Cameron saved Scotland…” by Owen Dudley Edwards, where he cuts Call Me Dave off at the knees, but very charmingly and with great erudition.

      Just read this bit, where he asks our now ex-PM, “Why on earth would you spend a penny on the obscene uselessness of Trident? You know we can never use it, or that we even have the pleasure of imagining we can could use it, since its use can only be allowed under orders from the USA. Weapons of mass destruction are forbidden to mere suspects of being thought new holders on pain of great power invasion. NATO cannot demand their ownership, and if it did it would logically have to invade itself. And as you well know, the United Nation can never alter the terms of its founder-member the UK (from the height of World War II) remaining on the Security Council with its veto”
      (p. 186).

      The SC aspect was something I’d never considered. Anyone here able to confirm ODE’s view?

    282. ahundredthidiot says:

      For me, this guy is simply reflecting the level of apathy regarding WMD in the West.

      When you look at what is happening in Turkey, South China Sea, alienation of Russia on every front, including sorrounding her with NATO bases and the madness driving US foreign policy, and if you don’t think that there is a clear and present danger to Faslane, then there is nothing anyone can say to wake people up to the danger right on our doorstep.

      Fascists invaded Poland in 39 on the basis of a lie after a flood of lies delivered by their propaganda machine – yet people here still fail to see the parallels with Iraq in 03.

      Sad really.

    283. K1 says:

      ‘In the run-up to the 2014 referendum, Scottish Tory leader Ruth Davidson said unequivocally in a TV debate that voting “no” “means we stay in, we are a member of the European Union”. That was more than 18 months after Cameron first announced his in/out referendum policy.’

      Aye…did he? Did he fuck.

      Here’s how that disnae stack up…

      Why would Davidson ‘unequivocally’ state ‘no means we stay in’ if Cameron had stated there was to be an EU ref 18 months, before the Indyref?

      This EU pish has been going on for decades in the Tory party…it was not and never was in a GE manifesto till GE15…everything before that was speculation.

      It was the Yes side who pushed this possibility of potentially being ‘dragged out of the EU’ should the Tories get in the following May 2015 and put the EU ref in their manifesto. Ruth Davidson was countering that very argument when debating this issue before the Indyref.

      They are rewriting history…

      End.

    284. Papadox says:

      The U.K. Nuclear deterrent is probably the biggest con trick and longest running, perpetrated by the establishment on the people of these islands. It is a joke and always has been! Makes them feel important and kid the population that they are important.

    285. Stoker says:

      Cadogan Enright wrote:
      “GA Ponsonby Has to be one of the two most devastating critics of the BBC, Challenged by Prof Robertson Their focus on State Propaganda allows the Rev to blast the wider Corporate Media”
      http://indyref2.scot/bbc-scotland-elites-and-other-british-nationalists
      “Wish we had them as a separate column on wings”

      I totally agree, lost count of the amount of times i’ve thought that. It would also allow Stu a wee bit of extra breathing space, not to mention hugely increasing the threat of WOS.
      🙂

    286. Inkall says:

      A country our size doesn’t need nuclear power either. If I remember right by population share we have had more nuclear plants built here than there have been in England.

      Just more putting the dangerous stuff far away, and probably still charging them to connect to the national grid on top of that.

    287. Stoker says:

      @ gordoz (10:45am): Correct!

    288. Legerwood says:

      Tony chiel @ 10.48am

      When the UN Security Council came into being after WWII there were 5 permanent members, China, USSR, UK, USA and France – the ones on the winning side in the war.

      Only one, the USA, was a nuclear power at that point. The others may have been working towards building nuclear weapons but did not at that point have them. Therefore permanent membership did not rely on having nuclear weapons then or now.

      In recent years there has been discussion about extending the number of permanent members. Germany, Brazil and India have been possible candidates but only one, India, is a nuclear power.

      Therefore if the UK gave up Trident it would not have to give up its seat as a permanent member of the Security Council.

    289. Capella says:

      @ Stoker
      I see from the Telegraph breakdown of how the BBC spends its £3.7b, BBC Scotland is missing. Radio Scotland spends £31m, BBC Alba £9m, so that accounts for £40m. They take in £300m from the licence fee.
      http://archive.is/dT1GG

      At the select committee meeting in Glasgow they said that £190m was spent in Scotland. I wonder what on?

    290. Ruby says:

      Tam Jardine says:
      18 July, 2016 at 10:40 am

      It is presented then that the SNP are not representing public opinion

      Ruby replies

      That was what Tory Ruth said in her Mail on Sunday article.

      According to Ruth the only MP who is representing the public is David Mundell. She said according to the polls people in Scotland are pro-Trident.

    291. Dr Jim says:

      There’s a wummin in Helesburgh wae a tropical fish shoap thit wants WMDs so that’s it Scotland will yeez jist shut up
      Coz we’re gonny pit that wummin oan the telly aw day sayin that till everybody realises that’s whit folk want, an huv yeez nae sympathy fur that wummin wae the tropical fish shoap thit could lose hur business coz of aw they thoosands and thoosands o joabs thit’ll be loast

      Scoatland’s sic a pain in the Erse

    292. Legerwood says:

      Tam Katrine @ 10.15 am

      The latest poll that I saw was published by the Herald, and commissioned by it, on 13th July 2016.

      The poll showed support for Trident replacement at 44% which was down 10% from the figure published in a February poll but still more than were against renewal. The article in the Herald then gave a breakdown of how the various groups within the people polled had responded.

      Sorry, I can’t give the link but the article was their main front page story that day.

    293. Tinto Chiel says:

      “Therefore if the UK gave up Trident it would not have to give up its seat as a permanent member of the Security Council.”

      Of course, Legerwood, what Westminster suggests to The Great British People is that that is exactly what would happen and this is used to perpetuate WM’s Phallic Obsession with WMD.

      Just another entry in their Big Boy’s Bumper Book of Lies, it seems.

      Mind you, they’re all they’ve got.

    294. Andrew McLean says:

      Great article Rev,
      Went off grid this weekend no internet, no phone or TV signal either, just beautiful Scottish rain, heather and bracken, mountain and stream, and more and more beautiful Scottish rain, in fact so much rain I didn’t see the No Camping signs so missed the joy of completely ignoring them!

      So this morning tuned into BBC state broadcaster ( for Scottish viewers only), got weak interview with defence secretary who is clearly promoted above his ability, then Call K first caller, George form Glasgow, says Wee Nick when referring to the First Minister for Scotland? I didn’t listen to another word, as I had him as fool, and best never to listen to them least it rubs off. But I assume he was regurgitating whatever shit he had for breakfast, all without interruption from K.

      Honestly I fear for that woman’s sanity, having to listen to wee sexist bigoted pish stained arseholes, and that’s just the political wing of the BBC.

      In my humble opinion the Yoons are getting restless, you can always tell, they get all superior and violent, and taking about the GB, as a actual physical entity, instead of a idea, a construct well past its sell by date. Personally I think they realise they are on the wrong side of history! and no amount of pretending the Tories are on some sort of resurgence in the media will change that, they are losing the battle, day by day they are in retreat, and like a wounded animal just as dangerous.

      Well without giving a precise date, and seeing our day of summer is almost apron us, can we please start the Indy Ref 2 debating stage officially now?

    295. Grouse Beater says:

      Mundell, Bushbaby From Hell, again receiving attention and racking-up more brownie points with his WM handlers for no other reason than being the odd man out.”

      On Westminster Bridge Mundell stood
      Chewing his beard through lack of food.
      “This beard” moaned he, “Is crap to eat.
      But a damn sight better than Shredded Wheat!”

    296. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Tam Jardine@10.40am

      Ah, the, loaded phrase, ‘how do you feel about that’. It is used when someone has been badly treated and feels hurt, and needs therapy. To use that sort of language about a vote on trident, weapons of mass destruction is as you say, pure propaganda. People making important decisions for you, god forbid!

      I do remember that the media attempted to paint independence supporters as ‘too emotional’. I had friends in england, who said we were all ‘far too emotional’. It’s a classic tactic to paint your enemy as basing their views and decisions on emotions, not rational, not logical. It puts them down, demeans them and means you can step in and take charge, even lock them up if necessary for their own good.

      The yoons must employ people to go through the psychology books every day, looking for a new angle to feed into their media so as to portray the people of Scotland and their democratically elected government as incapable. Luckily it’s not working for the most part.

    297. Stoker says:

      @ Capella (11:32am):
      Well spotted, i was wondering who’d spot it. Yes, exactly, and if i remember correctly, pre referendum, Scotland’s contribution to the BBC was allegedly £300m, with Scotland getting somewhere in the region of £80m(?) or £120m(?) back, pooling & sharing indeed! I’ll see if i can find that article, it was on Newsnet.

    298. Capella says:

      The transcript from the Culture Media and Sport meeting in Glasgow is now online. Some interesting questions at Q550 onwards:

      Q556 Ian C. Lucas: Why is it, do you think, that there is not a nationally-recognised Scottish drama at the present time?

      Alan Clements: It is hard to say. I think Scotland slightly went out of fashion. At the time of the referendum there was certainly a sense of, “Would we commission a Scottish-based drama out of a country that may be a foreign country in six or nine months’ time?” There was certainly some of that. That is slightly fashion-driven. The process is more structural, because a lot of the writers are in London, the agents of the writers are in London, and it is very difficult. This is not unique to Scotland. This is true in Wales and even more so in Northern Ireland.

      http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/culture-media-and-sport-committee/bbc-charter-review/oral/35086.html

    299. Dr Jim says:

      Just watched the BBC weather for tomorrow and it looks to be a fine day in Scotland and according to the BBC Map now that Scotland has shrunk further, Glasgow is very close to Stornaway now so I may go for a walk there as I haven’t been for years

      Should be back in time for tea at a good stretch of the legs

      (Sigh)

      If the FM called for a demo, right now would be a good time
      and I think a fair amount would be likely to show up
      Either Edinburgh or Glasgow, let’s face it according to the BBC weather map we’re right next door to each other

    300. Capella says:

      @ Stoker
      I haven’t read the evidence from Ken MacQuarrie and Gary Smith yet but at first glance it is not promising, offering more of the same strict focus on “contemporary” stories. No “Outlander” style historical dramas for us then.

      Q432 Chair: So that they do not have a kind of caricature Rob Roy/Braveheart view of Scotland?

      Can anybody tell me what is wrong with Rob Roy and Braveheart? Since when did strict historical accuracy become a criterion for writing drama? Shakespeare is notoriously biased, not least in Macbeth, but that doesn’t stop the BBC spending a lot of money producing his plays.

      But in Scotland writers are advised not to bother writing anything set in the past. Why? And I recall recently a playwright saying that he was told not write anything mentioning philosophy as that would be too intellectual for us peasants.
      Link to committee as a tiny URL
      http://tinyurl.com/z4av6lp

    301. D says:

      A woman sent a text in to the Radio Scotland Kaye Yoon Phone Yap program this morning. She said that because Trident is difficult to dispose of there is no point in getting rid of it.

      Did she understand that renewal means replacement. All the costs of disposal and all the costs of new kit as well.

    302. call me dave says:

      FM announces £420M flood protection scheme in Newton Stewart today which puts another radio shortbread piece in the SNP bad jigsaw.

      I wondered why two local traders in Newton Stewart were being given a carte blanche remit this morning to moan about ‘no flood help’ (apart from a grant they got from SG of course) and stating the FM and SNP had to do better.

      Russell Brown ex MP labour turfed out by Richard Arkless SNP at the last election so it’s not all bad apparently.

      All makes sense now, good old auntie get your blow in first dampen down any good news 🙂

      http://archive.is/qwn5k

      PS: Your call!

      “Too many people phoning in, so were moving on George” “Got to get as many folk on as possible” says K to a Trident opposer.

      and then on the next call to Dave ‘loves Trident’ after a bit…”Just you hold on there Dave we’ll come back to you”…then some plonker guest chats about the need for Trident and all those jobs… plenty time for Dave to get back in. Hello! 🙁

      Funny old radio shortbread world…I switched off the car radio then.

      (I know …I know!)

    303. Robert Kerr says:

      O/T.

      Just a thought on relocating the subs and warheads from where we are to where they are.

      Can there be PoI requests please for the safety cases for armed subs in Devonport and Faslane?

      Compare and contrast!

      Come on CND. Come on SG. Come on Greens. Do not take facile excuses from the BritNat state!

      This time it’s for keeps!

    304. Legerwood says:

      Re the BBC licence fee and the amount spent in Scotland from Kevin McKenna writing in the Guardian on 13th July 2016

      “” The BBC annual report, just published, carries for the first time regional licence fee figures as well as expenditure. In it, we see that while Wales gets around 95% of its licence fee back and Northern Ireland gets around 72%, Scotland gets a mere 55%. Almost to a man and a woman, every journalist I’ve spoken with inside BBC Scotland says what amounts to the same thing: BBC Scotland is only deemed to be important if it makes programmes for the network. The idea of commissioning dramas and documentaries for a Scottish audience is an alien one. London simply dismisses the concept of high-quality Scottish drama.””

      Hope that helps.

      Apologies to Tinto and Tam Jardine for mistakes with their names in earlier posts – predictive text at work again.

    305. carjamtic says:

      O/T

      Capella @ 12:29

      This is the recommended reading list from BTL posters WoS,I searched online library and have reserved 4 (max)4,5,12 and 13.

      1. The Liberty Tree – Murray Armstrong

      2. Mac Beth & Wallace – Nigel Tranter

      3. Dunsiname – David Greig (play)

      4. Rob Roy McGregor His Life & Times – WH Murray

      5. My Wound is Deep (trilogy) – Raymond Campbell Paterson

      6. Culloden – John Prebble

      7. Sunset Song – Lewis Grassic Gibbon

      8. A Great & Terrible King: The Forging of Britain – Marc Morris

      9. And King Hereafter – Dorothy Dunners

      10. King of the Night, Worms of the Earth –Robert E Howard

      11. Scotland’s Future History – Stuart McHardy

      12. And The Land Lay Still – James Robertson

      13. Joseph Knight – James Robertson

      I am no expert but seems to be some excellent material here for TV,plays,films if only somebody was interested.

      Thanks for the recommendation wingers 🙂

    306. Dan Huil says:

      “But in Scotland writers are advised not to bother writing anything set in the past. Why?”

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/mac-Findlaech-D-M-Raine-ebook/dp/B00DIGH06K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1468842853&sr=8-1&keywords=macbeth+mac+findlaech

    307. Stoker says:

      I can’t find the Newsnet article i was thinking about but i’m getting strong recollections the information i was thinking about was actually part of a petition organised by Lynda Williamson on Newsnet, a petition which is now closed. I’ve come across these two excellent articles though:

      The price of the BBC
      http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-price-of-the-bbc/

      Scotland short-changed over BBC licence fee
      http://newsnet.scot/archive/scotland-short-changed-over-bbc-licence-fee-says-culture-minister/

    308. Jack Murphy says:

      TRIDENT and BBC slanting news.

      BBC Headquarters spouting this nonsense to it’s UK WIDE listeners from Broadcasting House on it’s TODAY programme at 02:02:36:-
      “The vote will also be used by the SNP who will vote against Trident to underline what they claim as the growing divide between Scotland and the rest of the UK” !!!!

      That’s the News from London—-pick up that baton BBC Pacific Quay for the rest of the week—-run with it,run,run,run.

      Subtle and not so subtle slanting ‘News’!!

      On BBC IPlayer —-if Scotland’s interested anymore:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07kld0f

    309. Papadox says:

      Can one or more of the pro trident yoons please breakdown the 40000 people employed on thr trident program. Especially the number employed in Scotland and their location? Total breakdown would be very enlightening. Facts and truth only please.

    310. Nana says:

      As there is a vote on the trident obscenity later today,here are a few links

      http://www.cnduk.org/cnd-media/item/2505-trident-will-cost-%C2%A3205-billion-not-%C2%A331-billion-heres-why

      https://theferret.scot/westminster-trident-nuclear-independence

      Peter Curran links to a video on Hiroshimo. Heed his warning, this is harrowing.
      https://twitter.com/moridura/status/754974644948566016

    311. Dr Jim says:

      @Capella

      Been saying it fot years Braveheart good movie along with others, they’re movies not documentaries, it’s just another example of anti Scottishness to tear down anything uplifting about Scotland
      Do we think John Wayne won all the wars everywhere, of course not but you don’t hear the Americans complaining, coz it’s a movie
      Did Dickie Darling Attenburgh win all the British stuff?
      Did Alien NOT really happen Jings

      Anti Scottishness, and it’s a constant bombardment from all things Yoon, it’s become so ingrained now it’s become cultural to belittle Scotland

      The funny thing is they use the telly to do it to best effect but if it hadn’t been for us idiot Scots they might not even have had tellys

    312. Dorothy Devine says:

      Do you think those at the BBBC have missed the fallout maps which encompass Pacific Quay as well as the rest of us?

      Or are they so well paid they can skedaddle to a safer environment whenever the button is pressed ?

      Is the Herald being blackmailed into publishing some of the atrociously bad articles ? I can think of no other reason ,particularly that unofficial biographer – jings ! what an amount of ordure that chap pumps out.

    313. Fred says:

      George Kerevan excellent on Labour’s addiction to nukes in today’s National, also Carolyn Leckie’s feature on the proposed Lochaber Buy-out, even if the lassie does mix her smelters up, Kinlochleven shut years ago!

      @ Grousebeater, filling gabions is tricky work, too many stanes & they bulge, preventing the lid fitting. But 200+ tons is one of the labours of Hercules

    314. Capella says:

      @ Carjamtic
      Great list. And we have plenty of talented writers who could produce more. After all, the writer of “Outlander” was an American contemporary author, Diane Gabaldon, and she extensively researched the mid 18th century Scottish background for accuracy. And that was banned on broadcast TV.

      What seems to be strictly verboten is Scottish people broadcasting our own reconstruction of historical events. We are cut off from our roots. Poldark, Upstairs Downstairs, Downton Abbey, Peaky Blinders, Call the Midwife etc etc is fine for England but no equivalent is tolerable for us.

    315. heedtracker says:

      carjamtic says:
      18 July, 2016 at 12:54 pm
      O/T

      Great list of Scotland’s pantheon. But go further into our Celtic heritage and there’s a vast array of Celtic gods like

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/myths_legends/northern_ireland/ni_7/article_1.shtml

      and

      http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Cr-Dr/Cuchulain.html

      One of the great victories in the battle to UKOK anglicise the Scots has been the airbrushing out of our Celtic history and heritage, they hope.

      Finally watched the Thor movie last night by Sir Kenneth Charles Branagh and that’s all based on Scandinavian gods, obviously. Holywood did a terrific Beowulf movie, the Anglo Saxon war god story, starring Sir Ray Winston, another great English lover of the Scots:D

      greathttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0442933/

      Maybe the Scots Celtic heritage has been erased by unionists and ofcourse BBC Scotland would never even think of trying anything like Thor or Beowulf. Even so, no matter how hard yoon culture pretends Scotland and its heritage is not much at all, the Celts of Scotland defeated the might of Rome and then kept defeating them. There’s maybe some dramatic energy in that 500 year slice of Scottish history alone.

      If you want to see how effective anglicisation of Scotland has been, listen to yoon culture dismiss the same Celtic Scots that forced the building of Hadrian’s wall. The teamGB rules the waves cringe will make you throw up though.

    316. Capella says:

      @ Dan Huil – ta for link. Duly downloaded to kindle. 🙂

    317. Stoker says:

      Wee update folks – looks like this will be debated now.
      For the first time (from a Scottish perspective) Berwickshire, Roxburgh & Selkirk lead the race, hotly pursued by Banff & Buchan.
      http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=133618

    318. Connor McEwen says:

      For Scotland, in the case of independence, the capital flight threat of 2014 is now reversed. As the EU’s outpost on the British mainland, it can expect inward investment from both finance and even productive industries, should it achieve independence.

      Pinched that bit from Nana http://mondediplo.com/2016/07/03brexit

    319. Stoker says:

      WOS Twitter running with #RealDeterrents

      I don’t do Twitter, yet, so here’s my contribution:

      I keep a meat cleaver in my bedside cabinet!
      Never had any livestock passing through!

    320. CameronB Brodie says:

      Capella
      The African-American ‘story’ was re-framed in the ’70s, largely as a result of a growing awareness among slave descendants, that their history had been stolen by the white institutions of academia and mass-media. They weren’t happy and wouldn’t put up with it.

      The same will happen here, though hopefully we won’t have to burn any central business districts down to get the message across.

      Whats your Name “Kunta Kinte”
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMPFQo5V-lA

    321. Artyhetty says:

      posting again as it said ‘you are posting comments too quickly’ which is b********ks.

      Re;Capella@12.11

      Probably already been pointed out but would that ‘slightly out of fashion’ mean that they could no longer make demeaning, piss taking, ridiculing and ridiculous drama programmes without it being blatantly obviously a put down of Scotland and the people of the nation of Scotland?

      Of course they also wanted and still do want to remove any notion of Scotland having an individual, unique and creative identity all of it’s own. It’s for the benefit of our neighbours, divide and rule, the usual.

    322. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Paul Mason doesn’t miss and hit the wall.

    323. defo says:

      Grouse,
      Don’t fill them 1 at a time, line them up and fill a bit in each (1/2 fill to start).
      Then repeat along the line. That helps stops the bulging Fred mentioned.
      Did you not ask Rory the Tory ? He knows a thing or two about stanes.

    324. Dr Jim says:

      I watched the video of the young black guy in America who shot the cops and it was strange
      The guy wasn’t a mad terrorist type or an angry nutter he was just a young frustrated bloke trying to get a message out

      No question he was wrong but he said something interesting on his video “Bullies don’t understand words” there was no shouting or swearing it, he was pleading

      Normally when these things happen your mind instantly condemns the perpetrator of the crime but in this case even though he was wrong to do it I felt sorry for him, and what looks very much like these folk are being so badly treated by the authorities in that country they feel driven to have no other option but to fight back and if they do the consequences will be even greater against them

      Racism and Sectarianism are the same tools employed by the UK government in order to hold their place in office and the effect of that was seen at the Holyrood elections when Ruth Davidson and some of her MSPs employed the same method
      to garner support

      Even now on Twitter and other social media sites it’s getting worse and the rewriting of various referendum issues is coming to fore again with the Yoon side becoming more vicious and angry in their abuse towards all things Independence

      Long term they can’t win but they can create sufficient trouble as to cause direct interference by the Tories which we’ll get the blame for and could subvert the drive for Independence and that would suit them just fine

      Remember George square, the Yoons did it, but WE got the blame

    325. Robert Peffers says:

      @Calum McKay says: 17 July, 2016 at 1:52 pm:

      “The more that labour are exposed the more it becomes evident that Corbyn and McDonnell are the only two labour politicians with common sense, morality and decency, the rest are confused self serving clowns like this guy smith and his colleague eagle.”

      The parliamentary Labour party must be the first party in history that set itself up to stand in direct opposition to its own rank & file membership.

      Remember that the rank & File membership includes the trade Unions, The TUC and The STUC who finance the party. So these imbecilic Parliamentarians are about to alienate the grass roots of their own party.

      Now consider that to get re-elected these numpties have to be selected as a candidate by their own particular local party branch and that branch can de-select them. Mind you the Parliamentary Labour party have got away with sending a man up from London with an approved list of candidates that does not include sitting members of councils and the Holyrood and Westminster sitting members.

      However, they cannot really force a branch if push comes to shove. This present Labour party internal kerfuffle would seem, to we outsiders looking in, like a mass suicide bid or at least a serious attempt at self-harming.

      Just why would the Labour Parliamentarians set themselves against their own membership?

    326. Capella says:

      @ Artyhetty – well there is a remake of “Trainspotting” being filmed. But at least Trainspotting was a vibrant take on urban yoof. But if you’re not a junkie, alcoholic or thief there’s little chance of being reflectd in the MSM cultural offerings. Ye’ll have had yer tea.

      But better get back on topic. The HoC debate on Trident renewal is about to start at approx 3.30.

      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b1c546fa-3dbb-472a-8bee-d463ed8f5a6d

    327. Liz M says:

      Dr Jim @ 2.58pm

      You should go and read Mark Franklands post

      “All over the world pigeons are coming home to roost”

      which covers this very subject.

    328. Valerie says:

      Dunno why some of you guys are not liking Call Kaye!

      I tuned in just in time to listen to – are you a steamer or a flusher – another boring diatribe on the state of the presenters blocked sinuses.

      Almost as riveting as – do elasticated waistbands make us fat?

      I really must remove that Swiss army knife from the car. Far too attractive looking.

    329. Legerwood says:

      Nana @ 1.16 pm

      Re the Paul Mason article. I noticed he mentioned the relatively small percentage of young people voting in the EU referendum.

      There were a couple of articles shortly after the referendum debunking the low figures Mr Mason quotes and stating that time-out was higher than first reported. One was in the Guardian. Here is the link with apologies for not archiving but can’t do it on my tablet:

      http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/09/young-people-referendum-turnout-brexit-twice-as-high

    330. carjamtic says:

      Heedtracker @ 1:36

      Brilliant,added to list.

      🙂

    331. Stoker says:

      On the subject of Trident! I’ve been playing around on this links map http://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=133618 and trying to work out how many constituents live on England’s south coast.

      In 38 constituencies which make up that coast, from St.Ives to Dover, there is a recorded population of 3,765,195 according to the maps constituents details.

      I was just wondering what would happen if one of those Trident missiles hit the Isle of Wight. Note, i have not included figures of other nearby constituencies further inland, only those that form the English south coast, including the IoW.

      Depending on conditions etc it would seem that millions of the English population would be at risk from Trident but it’s good enough to park the bastards at the heart of their allotment (aka Scotland).

      Roll on Scottish independence so we can rid ourselves of our ASBO neighbours’ toxic toys.

    332. crazycat says:

      @ Macart / Nana

      Paul Mason’s article is very good, but he may be wrong about the percentage of the young who did not vote (which is something he refers to several times).

      There was an initial estimate, and then another nearly double the original one. I assume these figures come from polling after the event, rather than an actual calculation from the marked polling station registers – how would anyone know how old voters were without a lot of (intrusive and probably illegal) further research?

      It may be that “the young didn’t vote” will become one of those pieces of received wisdom that are not actually true.

    333. Hamish100 says:

      Listened to the twat Smith from the GMB union at lunchtime. We must spend billions to keep the GMB going. We are living in an amoral world he venom’s, so illegal nuclear weapons are alright? Lets have biological weapons and create jobs. His twisted mind was that red clyde siders built war munitions so nuclear weapons must be ok. I kind of remember of tanks in George Square. No doubt this was alright if they were GMB members!! So it is the SNP fault it is Labours fault it is lib dems fault it is the tories fault for not renewing?!!
      So he then asked MP’s to vote today for renewing trident–proposed by the Tories. One mixed up trade yooniist. All the shipyards will close on the Clyde as well. Didn’t he support Curran and that mob saying the Clyde is safe with them. How many frigates could be built in place of nuclear missiles and submarines and be of more benefit? ps to GMB Subs aren’t built on the Clyde.

      GMB Scotland website states “Scotland Logo Website Currently Under Construction”. Destruction more like.

    334. crazycat says:

      @ Legerwood

      Snap! My internet connection was playing up, so I was unable to see that you had got there first.

      Here’s the archived version of the Guardian article:

      https://archive.is/CG407

    335. Another Union Dividend says:

      I see the perennial Trident abstainer Ian Murray has been appointed to Kezia Dugdale’s “shadow cabinet” .

      Do third parties normally have shadow cabinets?

      Must be a very long shadow in Scottish Labour’s case.

      Anyhow according to Sunday Times he’s going to Rome for his 40th birthday.

    336. People carrier says:

      The Scandinavians are not celts. Neither is a large proportion of lowland Scotland, whose ancestory resides with the Angles. Scotland is a heterogeneous nation. Just how amazing is it that such heterogeneity can result in a nation, relatively comfortable with itself.

      IMHO we missed a clear opportunity with BBC ALBA to include the Scots part of the country. What a channel that would have been. I watched the BBC ALBA documentary on Prince Juan Carlos the other night, which I thought was fascinating. It does some very fine work with respect to European topics.

    337. Lochside says:

      Re. ‘Call UKAYE’: I used to be a contributor, not often, but now and again. However, after a few impassioned pro Indy contributions,I found that I was not getting callbacks whereas in the past I was eagerly asked if I wanted to speak.

      I don’t listen often now as I knew from then on that they were censoring the contributors. Individuals like ‘Morag’ from Dundee and ‘George’ from Inverurie who were excellent, unlike me, and articulate proponents of Indy belief also have become noticeable by their absence.

      State censorship?…..no State manipulative propaganda masqueradinga as free speech. The difference now is that the game is up….we all know….but the rest of our population who listen regularly…do they still believe?

    338. Vambomarbeley says:

      Breeks. Totally agree with you. A number of aircraft carriers around the world ready to respond to disasters.
      Kaye. Steamer or snorter. I was the one that told her to get a kenalog injection in her backside. Or a prick in the arse. For her both are sound medical advise.

    339. Andrew Fernie says:

      “Effijy says:
      17 July, 2016 at 2:01 pm

      “Can I just remind everyone that the former Chief of the UK Army has confirmed that the USA hold the launch code to these missiles in secret, and although the Labour and Tory Parties may wish to launch a Weapon of Mass Destruction, at some point, they must ask the USA, if they are in agreement and are willing to release the code?”

      I’m sorry (don’t get me wrong, can’t wait for the day we get rid of Trident) but that’s simply not true. There is no PAL (Permissive Action Link) system used by the Royal Navy, therefore there are no codes. The authority to launch rests with the submarine’s commanding officer, subject to the agreement of his command staff.

      https://ukdjcdn-b4d.kxcdn.com/uploads/2014/07/UK-Nuclear-Deterrent-FOI-Response.pdf

      What is true is we’d likely struggle to maintain Trident in working order for any length of time without American assistance. There are already plenty of compelling reasons for getting rid of Trident, no need to add fictional ones.

    340. Chic McGregor says:

      Console ourselves that the spectre of Boris and The Donald fronting a new unreality TV show “Have I got Nukes to be Fired” is at least in temporary abeyance.

    341. Stoker says:

      Stu asks on WOS Twitter:
      “Quick check, folks – are comments appearing any faster since our server upgrade? Should be more or less instant now.

      For me on here it’s occasionally aye but mostly naw!
      And my wee space invader type avatar has gone AWOL!
      🙁

    342. Brian McHugh says:

      Fact 1… No nation is going to use a Nuclear attack against a non-nuclear threat.

      Fact 2… If any country attacked a non-nuclear country with a nuclear weapon, then some other country would see it as a direct threat to their national security and respond with full force.

      Fact 3… (developing fact 2), If a state attacked the UK with nuclear weapons, then the Americans would see that as a direct threat to American national security and would respond with full force.

      Fact 4… South Africa got rid of their nuclear arsenal… and have not suffered any additional threat.

      Fact 5… China, India, Russia and the USA having nuclear weapons is all the deterrent that is required globally. France, the UK and Isreal add nothing to the balance by having nukes, other than sabre rattling.

      Fact 6… North Korea, Iran or any otber rogue nation having nukes is irrelevant to the issue, as if they were stupid enough to use them, they would be annihilated by the USA… along with just about ever country, with or without nukes… but definately if you are a country with them.

      Which leads us to fact 7… If you have nukes, you are definately a primary target for attack by nukes.

      Fact 8… All politicians who state that we live in a world of threats and require nukes to act as a deterrent against said threats, is either a bit stupid and has not thought it through… or is a liar.

    343. mike cassidy says:

      This appointment of Murray sets a precedent.

      http://archive.is/bbdI6

      A Westminster MP representing the interests of a devolved parliament’s party.

      Reversing that, Davidson could have been appointed in place of Mundell, a devolved parliament’s MP representing a Westminster party.

      As they say, devolution is a process.

    344. galamcennalath says:

      From Sky News …

      “Michael Fallon has warned MPs not to gamble with the UK’s security ahead of a vote on renewing the Trident nuclear deterrent. The Defence Secretary said the country needed to retain its nuclear capability because of the rise of Daesh terrorism … ”

      … is he completely and utterly bonkers!?

      Instead of using drones to attack pickup trucks is he seriously proposing the alternative of melting everything and everybody around them for a kilometre?

    345. macnakamura says:

      Parliament live ……. Lab MPs on their feet to congratulate May not just on her appointment but on bringing Trident to the floor of the House ……. and abusing members of their own party.

    346. One_Scot says:

      Posted at 16:35:55

    347. One_Scot says:

      Took just under ten seconds.

    348. harry mcaye says:

      Lochside – Don’t forget Scott from Edinburgh aka Dr Scott Arthur. He was on again last week. The subject was opinions on the new PM. Within about a minute he had turned it into an attack on the SNP.

      I think THEY phone HIM!

    349. mike cassidy says:

      re those funny and scary ‘windows for submarines’ stories yesterday –

      don’t worry about a thing
      because everything is gonna be all right.

      http://archive.is/FDPIh

    350. Dr Jim says:

      This morning it was 8.000 jobs by lunchtime 10.000 around 2pm 12.000 and the latest was from a union guy who to be fair wanted it scrapped, his tally was 50.000 jobs

      A bit like the cost of Trident I’ll play the QI joker and say

      “Nobody knows”

      Or nobody’s telling

    351. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 18 July, 2016 at 4:58 am:

      “… That would leave Scotland the option of declaring independence unilaterally, which would weaken its international position. ”

      Here’s the legal facts and they all have precedent in both the independent Scottish law and in the international courts.

      The concept of Scotland declaring independence unilaterally could only happen if the Holyrood parliament were to declare Scotland independent without having a clear mandate from the legally Sovereign people of Scotland.

      Let me explain that concept further. First of all there is absolutely no documentary evidence that the Westminster Parliament has ever had actual legal sovereignty over Scotland. In the first place the United Kingdom is indeed a Kingdom with only two documented Kingdoms as equally sovereign members.

      Then there is the fact that in 1688 the Kingdom of England’s law system changed from the Monarch’s word being law, (The Divine Right of Kings), to the three country kingdom becoming a Constitutional Monarchy. The reason being that under English law a sovereign, just by being sovereign, could not defy God who appointed them, and thus could not give up being sovereign.

      What they could do was abdicate as monarch so that their successor would then be God’s chosen sovereign leader. You know the old saying, “The King is dead, Long Live the King”. Think about it – The Glorious Revolution of 1688 was the parliament throwing out the sitting monarch- so why would a parliament seeking to take full control invite another monarch to replace their monarchy? Why not just become a republic and never worry about royalty again?

      So, in 1706/7 there was a fundamental difference between English & Scottish Law as the two systems were incompatible and English law ruled that the Scots, being sovereign, could not renounce their sovereignty. Thus the treaty agreed they both remained independent and the people of Scotland, being sovereign, cannot be guilty of unilateral actions.

      To put that another way, under English law the elected MP is exercising the sovereignty of the Monarchy of England.
      It is, after all legally, “Her Majesty’s Government”, but in Scotland the elected MP is exercising the sovereignty of the people of Scotland in Her Majesty’s Government.

      Then we have the legal precedents mentioned in this cut & paste from Wiki, (It is NOT a WIKI opinion but is quotes from Scottish courts and Scottish judges):-

      >Some jurists have suggested that, following the Act of Union 1707, the principle of parliamentary sovereignty may not apply in Scotland. Although no Scottish court has yet openly questioned the validity of an Act of Parliament, certain judges have raised the possibility. Thus, in MacCormick v. Lord Advocate, the Lord President (Lord Cooper) stated that “the principle of the unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinctively English principle which has no counterpart in Scottish Constitutional Law”, and that legislation contrary to the Act of Union would not necessarily be regarded as constitutionally valid. Also, in Gibson v Lord Advocate, Lord Keith was circumspect about how Scottish courts would deal with an Act, which would substantially alter or negate the essential provisions of the 1707 Act, such as the abolition of the Court of Session or the Church of Scotland or the substitution of English law for Scots law.

      The establishment of the Scottish Parliament has meant that the area of parliamentary supremacy is redefined.[citation needed][original research?] For example, although nuclear power is not within its competence, the Scottish government successfully blocked the wishes of the UK government to establish new nuclear power stations in Scotland using control over planning applications which is devolved.[16] While it remains theoretically possible to dissolve the Scottish Parliament or legislate without its consent in relation to Scotland, in practice such a move would be politically difficult.

      So that is clear – if the Scottish parliament on its own declares Scotland independent then that is a unilateral declaration of independence.

      If, however, they hold a referendum that results in a majority of the sovereign people of Scotland voting for independence then the Scottish people’s sovereignty is paramount and legal under international law.

      That point has legal precedence as the case of the Lockerbie Bomber proves. Although both the USA and the UK claimed they had jurisdiction the international law courts ruled that as Scottish law was independent, and the alleged crime was perpetrated within Scottish Air space the Scottish courts had jurisdiction.

    352. Tinto Chiel says:

      People carrier says:
      18 July, 2016 at 3:55 pm
      “The Scandinavians are not celts. Neither is a large proportion of lowland Scotland, whose ancestory resides with the Angles.”

      Can’t quite agree with you there, People Carrier. True, there was Anglian penetration in the SE from Bernicia but the rest of Lowland Scotland was British. The kingdom of Strathclyde was centred on Dumbarton Rock and its ecclesiastical centre was Glasgow. This name, along with many others, like Paisley, Renfrew, Moscow (stress on second syllable), Linlithgow, Penicuik is of Old Welsh origin. In the east there was also Gododdin, another British statelet. Once Dumbarton Rock fell to the Vikings in 871 their power waned swiftly and Gaelic began to fill the vacuum in most of lowland Scotland, hence the large numbers of such names below the Forth/Clyde line which,strangely, are rarely talked about.

      I agree with you about our being a heterogeneous nation and about BBC Alba: when I used to watch it I really enjoyed Eorpa, the only programme which looked at Europe on the BBC without imperial condescension or sneering.

    353. yesindyref2 says:

      We all live in a glowing submarine, a glowing submarine, a glowing submarine

    354. Iain More says:

      Come on boys and girls we need those Nukes to vaporise Daimler, Volvo Global, MAN, Scania and Navistar as they are the largest manufactures of trucks in the world, they were the last time I looked.

      I guess the French deterrent isn’t working. Not that the EBC or any psychotic Brit Nat would ever point out that uncomfortable fact.

    355. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      Yup, well put. And negates any talk there was or will be about the Westminster Government being able to ignore a democratically held referendum result – whether Section 30 sanctioned or not. Could be a lot of hassle in court, of course. Including which court is supreme.

    356. Robert Peffers says:

      Anyone interested can view the Westminster debate live here:-

      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Commons

    357. sinky says:

      Idiot on radio saying Trident / Faslane creates 12,000 jobs in Helensburgh.
      Population of Helensburgh including pensioners and bairns is 14,000

    358. Gary45% says:

      Regarding the Empire Broadcasting Corp,(Shortbread region)
      They vet every caller (to even out the bias?!?!) which we all know is total bollocks.

      Years ago I got banned from Jimmy Dungs radio 2 show for basically not buying their pish.( you know when it happens, because you no longer get through to the show, and if you do they never phone back.)
      Best thing to do is agree with their pish and when you get on air let rip.

      Shortbread is even worse, the presenters are garbage, K wi anE has some hasbeen from the highlands on her show today, I think she is now a regular, her qualifications? probably kisses K fae the valleys arse.
      I used to listen daily to Shortbread, now I laugh at Gary Rubberheid on GMS, and only listen to hear what LIES they are broadcasting to the morons.
      Cosgrove and Cowan are fine but the rest are SHITE.
      At least I don’t give,and will never give the bastards another penny in licence fee.

    359. Glamaig says:

      OMG I cant believe what Im hearing. I had to switch the radio off. Radio Scotland going in hard with ‘we need to build WMD that can obliterate half the planet, because it creates jobs, and Helensburgh will go down the tubes without it’.

      If anybody can find a more fatuous argument for building nukes, please let me know. Civilisation is lying in radioactive ruins, but its ok because some shopkeepers in Helensburgh managed to retire with a reasonable pension.

      I can imagine a few thousand people across Scotland nodding in unthinking agreement with this piece. Can we please introduce logic and critical thinking as mandatory subjects in our schools as a matter of urgency?

    360. One_Scot says:

      Yup, we absolutely need WMD.

      Saw some biddy saying that her shop would fold if it were not for the Westminster Government spending hundreds of billions of tax payers money.

      If that’s not a powerful overwhelmingly convincing argument for Trident, then I don’t know what is.

    361. Stoker says:

      sinky wrote:
      “Idiot on radio saying Trident / Faslane creates 12,000 jobs in Helensburgh. Population of Helensburgh including pensioners and bairns is 14,000”

      Did you get the name of the show this took place on?
      What radio station was it on? Was it challenged?

      These details are important Sinky so we can expose the lies and lack of credibility emanating from certain radio stations and shows. The more we call their broadcasting into question the more we destroy any credibility in the minds of the uneducated.

    362. Macart says:

      Angus Robertson there making the situation crystal clear to the government benches with a cracking contribution. 🙂

    363. Effijy says:

      Andrew Fernie says:

      18 July, 2016 at 4:08 pm

      “Effijy says:
      17 July, 2016 at 2:01 pm

      “Can I just remind everyone that the former Chief of the UK Army has confirmed that the USA hold the launch code to these missiles in secret, and although the Labour and Tory Parties may wish to launch a Weapon of Mass Destruction, at some point, they must ask the USA, if they are in agreement and are willing to release the code?”

      Hi Andrew, In you counter post above, you advise that this is not the situation and Westminster does not need US permission to fire Trident Missiles.

      I need to ask why the former Head of the British Army would make such a claim?

      He certainly has taken on the powers that be with this statement, one that he could not possibly benefit from.

      I would expect Westminster to deny this as it may kill off a few Russians, who might die laughing at UK payment for US controlled missiles.

    364. Effijy says:

      Just seen an MP ask Mayhem if she would press the Trident Button if she knew it would kill 100,000 innocent people.

      Instantly she answered YES!

      As an Innocent who care about himself, family, neighbours-well most of them, colleagues, my country and the world in general, I see her statement that she would be happy to kill me and all I care about, if she and the Tories keep control.

      Now that we have established that May doesn’t give a damn who she kills, we must work all the for Independence and sever all ties with these corrupt beasts.

    365. Meg merrilees says:

      Re Stoker @4.19pm I have tried to post 3 times and none have shown up. Here is the short version without a link…

      Basically may I suggest that you listen to the Westminster hour last night (Sunday) on BBC R4. about 44 minutes in.

      Dr. Dan Plesh from London University is interviewed re Trident.

      He states that Trident is not an independent deterrent as the Americans know where our subs. are thru their Waterspace system and if a British PM tried to fire Trident, they can prevent it either by a cyberattack, thru physical interruption of communications, hunting down our subs. or using their extremely capable Aegis anti-ballistic system to shoot it down. These Aegis missiles are currently installed on 30 warships in the Atlantic.

      He also said it was not a case of a British PM being able to fire it more a case of America not preventing it.

    366. frogesque says:

      @stoker 5.44

      It was on r shortbread, Drive Time, 5.00pm give or take.

    367. Grouse Beater says:

      Defo: “Don’t fill them 1 at a time, line them up and fill a bit in each (1/2 fill to start). Then repeat along the line. That helps stops the bulging Fred mentioned.”

      Hey, good, timely advice. Will do.

    368. Effijy says:

      STV now framing support for Trident.

      The truth is Yes 520 people directly employed in supporting Weapons of Mass Destruction, would need to be redeployed in building and supporting the new Scottish Navy!

      So we can keep the Taxi Drivers and Sweetie Shops of Helensburgh gainfully employed, we can now have a Navy that patrols our seas, and we do not need to have Nuclear Weapons
      on our door step that could wipe out every living thing between Helensburgh and Glasgow inclusive.

      STV must have forgot to mention that aspect, but they did remind everyone that only that Bad SNP Party will be voting unanimously to scrap Trident.

    369. Vambomarbeley says:

      Would we not be better with a anti missile system. How ever if you hit a missile in flight. I assume there has to be fall out some where. Is the fall out nuclear.

    370. yesindyref2 says:

      @Macart + @Alan Mackintosh
      Thanks for that, been browsing through between times. What’s interesting about it as well is that the Scot Gov are really starting to get on top of this. They’ve been improving GERS for years, more in relation to cutting down and actually attributing the “non-attributable” expenditure the UK Gov lumps us with e.g. infrastructure projects “on behalf of the whole UK”. It’s good they’re doing it with revenues too.

      I do know there’s the SNAP project but never found the time to really dig through it. There was the HMRC experimental regional analysis – that report shows that it’s pessimistic with its figures for Scotland, which I think were already better for Scotland than in GERS.

      Anyway, perhaps Lindsay Bruce is doing a bit of research, more power to his elbow, It’s tiring work, but it does get faster as you get a feel for the thing. As @Bill posted earlier, it’s amazing and sad at the same time, the knowledges we’ve had to pick up to fight the cause of Indy.

      Meanwhile, there are 56 pro-Indy MPS in Westminster, all entitled to put in written questions to which answers are required. Time I think for them to make a real nuisance of themselves to get the knowledge we’re completely entitled to get.

    371. Song42 says:

      OT
      Livestream Gerry, is down at the Westminster Trident demo if anyone’s interested n wanting to watch it. He says he’ll be there for about half an hour. There’s a few talks happening – on the stage.

    372. Bob Mack says:

      They never learn. Aside from the moral questions raised by nuclear weapons, their use must be called into question militarily.

      During the First World War this country was still utilising cavalry charges as a means of attack. Only after realising the effects of modern weaponry did they learn.

      At the beginning of the Second World War, they were still using bi planes for offense.

      Today they are going to invest in a weapons system that will be obsolete within the next few years. Even the current Vanguard class might not escape this fate.

      New underwater detection technology can already detect submarines through satellite and drones. Russia, China and the US already are improving these technologies monthly rather than yearly.

      To be blunt,one defence expert said they could detect a fish faring in a shoal from hundreds of miles away.

      We learn nothing, but make the same mistakes again and again.

    373. People Carrier says:

      Tinto Chiel
      “Anglian penetration in the SE from Bernicia but the rest of Lowland Scotland was British. The kingdom of Strathclyde was centred on Dumbarton Rock and its ecclesiastical centre was Glasgow. This name, along with many others, like Paisley, Renfrew, Moscow (stress on second syllable), Linlithgow, Penicuik is of Old Welsh origin. In the east there was also Gododdin, another British statelet. ………….”.

      Agreed Tinto Chiel. I should have developed the examples more as you expertly note above. It was simply an attempt to provide an example of our heterogeneity.

      Totally agree regarding Eorpa.

    374. old highlander says:

      Mayhem would without a second thought press the button on us too.

    375. yesindyref2 says:

      @Effijy
      Those 520 jobs are specialised for nuclear as far as I remember, so couldn’t be so easily be redeployed, but I also remember that some – many – of them are non-resident, living perhaps around Devonport as Astute basing and maintenance is carried out there (though planned to move to Faslane). So a limited number – 300 perhaps – would have to relocate with Vanguard / Trident.

      BUT this won’t happen for 10 years by which time some would be retired I expect, and if aspects of the Trident operation were transitioned out of Faslane during that 10 years as is likely, GMB are blowing it out of their posterior.

      As for the other 12,000 whatever the figure is, some are in design or associated jobs, and some of those might also be relocated over time. But the majority is like grounds maintenance, police, buying, warehousing, logistics, channel clearance, paingint and decorating even. All of them would stay for the planned naval base and SDF HQ.

      I think having the HQ at Faslane is a great idea, the loction was picked for security and access, and with a bot of friendly landscaping, could make it one of the most secure HQs while opening that beautiful coast to more tourism, and an extension perhaps of the John Muir walk from Helensburgh to meet up with the Kintyre walk.

      Oh, and the benefits to Helensburgh apart from employment are fairly negligible. There are on-site concessions for shops, a supermarket and restaurants, plus a large accomodation block. For the big shop, the residents do what others do – go to the big supermarket elsewhere.

    376. Stoker says:

      @ Meg merrilees (6:08pm)
      Hopefully he’ll see these posts and be aware of the problems still existing and something will get done about it Meg.
      _____

      @ frogesque (6:11pm)
      Thought as much! Thanks for the confirmation!
      Some things never change, eh!

    377. schrodingers cat says:

      People carrier
      The Scandinavians are not celts. Neither is a large proportion of lowland Scotland, whose ancestory resides with the Angles. Scotland is a heterogeneous nation. Just how amazing is it that such heterogeneity can result in a nation, relatively comfortable with itself.

      the lowlands of scotland did see an influx of, at least, anglo saxon culture, especially language, from 500 ad onwards, but with the norman invasion in 1066 and the incorporation/consoladation of the lowlands by Malcom Canmore during the same century, the boundaries of modern scotland were created and the very concept of Scotland, a country with numerous cultural and linguist peoples was born. it was at this time that even the term Scots and scotland became current in scotland and elsewhere.

      from this point onwards that the people of the lowlands, glasgow, edinburgh, fife, the NE, and the gealtacht, started to refer to themselves as scots. it retains a tenuous link to the 6th century dalreadian scots, through kings and Gaelic, but only in a similar way that the Welsh “Tir na Bhreatain” clams to descend from roman britannia

    378. yesindyref2 says:

      @Vambomarbeley
      Problem is where they’re launched from, there’d need to be anti-missiles nearby, because for instance Trident reaches Mach 10 in around 2 minutes, and supersonic – hypersonic – interception isn’t easy. The Yanks gave up and are perhaps only just restarting R&D. Once it reaches sub-orbit, it splits into multiple warheads which free-fall. I guess taht gives no heat signature to lock onto, and a relatively small radar signature to pick up. Some warheads might get intercepted, some would get through.

      SLBMs (Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles) can be fired from anywhere in the 9/10s watery planet we live on!

    379. Bob Mack says:

      @Vambombarbeley,

      Trident multiple warheads are travelling over 18,000 mph when they Re – enter the atmosphere.I know of no system that could track them and destroy them ( that is in existence.)

    380. James Barr Gardner says:

      BBC yet again talking phish Vanguard Class Submarines carry 16 missiles not 8 as quoted several times by the BBC. Each Missile has at least 10 warheads.

      Strike 1 – Exit from the EU.

      Strike 2 – Trident renewal.

      Strike 3 – I’am sorry but because of Strikes 1 & 2 We’re going for IndyRef2. NOT IN MY NAME.

      I’ve now volunteered for IndyRef2. This time We shall Win!

    381. heedtracker says:

      Nuke debate Westminster style is pretty hideous with usual toryboy creeps sliming around, one reptile says nukes stop state on state war, but whataboutery the UK/US Iraq invasion and their WMD which didn’t do them much good at all. Why are we reined over by toryboys again?

      Where’s that idiot sensiblePapko when you really need the voice of planet toryboy.

    382. Dr Jim says:

      Space gun, we need a big Space gun

      Theresa May says we have to think about future threats we don’t know about yet and protect our children from them whatever they may be

      So it’s perfectly logical to need a big Space Gun to defend ourselves against the bad aliens that might, or might not, come

      Coz in the movie Nukes were no good and couldnae get through their shields, so defo a Space Gun

    383. Graeme Doig says:

      Stoker @ 5.44

      I didn’t hear all the shite peddled by radio shortbread but they did read out my text challenging the employment figures.

      In a twenty minute period I heard three different stooges state three different figures.

    384. Onwards says:

      mike cassidy says:
      17 July, 2016 at 1:40 pm

      http://archive.is/kip4P#selection-1855.0-1855.476
      ———

      That article contains a reference to the UK’s army of 1500 “facebook warriors.”

      https://archive.is/Q4Bdc

      ———–
      The 77th Brigade, to be based in Hermitage, near Newbury, in Berkshire, will be about 1,500-strong and formed of units drawn from across the army. It will formally come into being in April.
      The brigade will be responsible for what is described as non-lethal warfare. Both the Israeli and US army already engage heavily in psychological operations.

      Against a background of 24-hour news, smartphones and social media, such as Facebook and Twitter, the force will attempt to control the narrative.
      ————-

      You can bet there is a squad of paid posters against independence. Scottish self-government will be considered a more immediate threat to the UK state than any army.

      Unionists joke about cybernats, but there you go – the UK actually has an official online propaganda army attempting to influence public opinion.

      If there is a second indyref, maybe YES supporters need to get together and try to balance things out over social media – rather than sticking only to a bubble of pro-indy sites.

    385. yesindyref2 says:

      Spending a few idle moments, couple of interesting short articles about drones and subs, and low frequency computer enhanced sonar for detection:

      http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/transparent-sea-the-unstealthy-future-of-submarines/

      http://breakingdefense.com/2015/01/growing-teeth-upgunning-the-surface-navy/

      Does kind of put 1 continually at sea boat into context, which, apart from cost, should be a consideration before committing to spend £200 billion over the next 35 years.

    386. Ken500 says:

      They need Trident to protect them, when they have bomb the Middle East for years and stolen their resources. Warmongering liars. They have been warned once Scotland is Independent. They will not be illegally basing Nukes in Scotland. They have been told. When the Ministry of Defence and Blair are sued that might concentrate their corrupt vacant minds. Dirty liars. Unelected vacant coupons.

    387. Papko says:

      “Where’s that idiot sensiblePapko when you really need the voice of planet toryboy.”

      Cheers Heed

      Just for the record I voted Remain ,and am opposed to Trident renewal (prefer a phasing out over next decade).

      Been reading a great book and thoroughly recommend it to you

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Britain-Made-Modern-World/dp/0141007540/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

    388. msean says:

      Read that unstealthy future of submarines piece,what is the point of them anymore if they are able to be detected,except that some can’t realise that it’s over for them. The whole point is stealth,if you don’t have that,it is defunct.

    389. Hamish100 says:

      EFFIJY -writes

      “Just seen an MP ask Mayhem if she would press the Trident Button if she knew it would kill 100,000 innocent people.

      Instantly she answered YES!

      As an Innocent who care about himself, family, neighbours-well most of them, colleagues, my country and the world in general, I see her statement that she would be happy to kill me and all I care about, if she and the Tories keep control.

      Now that we have established that May doesn’t give a damn who she kills, we must work all the for Independence and sever all ties with these corrupt beasts.”

      Does that make WHITSHERNAME better or worse than a person with mental health and anger issues drive a truck at innocents?

      The various churches seem quiet at the moment. Normally they are very vocal. Lets hope we hear from them tomorrow. It is morally wrong.

    390. Robert Peffers says:

      @Alan Mackintosh says: 18 July, 2016 at 8:42 am:

      ” … if you look at my link a couple of posts above regarding oil and gas exported “off-rig” you’ll see that “unknown region” may be used as a way of obfuscating things”

      Can’t it just, Alan.

      In the case of the North Sea extra-regio area as used by the UK government when accounting for oil & gas revenues it is a very obvious obfuscation. The point is that with the United Kingdom being a two party Kingdom that contains four countries and one of those Kingdoms is the single country Kingdom of Scotland the definition of extra-region territory is quite obviously a legal fudge.

      The thing is that under the International Law of the Seas they do not deal in Kingdoms but in countries and the International Law of the Seas recognises that the country with legal jurisdiction over around 95% to 98% of the oil & gas producing areas of the North Sea is the country of Scotland. In the event of any criminal activity in that area the case would needs be dealt with by the Scottish Police and the case brought before a Scottish court and tried under the independent Scottish Law.

      This extra-regio thing has already been fought out in the international courts over the case of the Lockerbie Bomber’s prosecution. The United Kingdom attempted to claim the case fell under their jurisdiction, as did the USA. The International courts decided the air space over Scotland was under Scottish Jurisdiction. The Scottish taxpayer alone paid for the investigations, the collecting of evidence, the cost of the prosecution and the cost of holding the sole convicted person in a Scottish prison.

      BTW: The costs of policing the North Sea oil & Gas Installations is met by the council tax payers of the nearest adjacent council area to a particular installation.

      They get no financial help from the United Kingdom Government – either directly or indirectly. They do, though, get help from Holyrood due to the Council Tax Freeze. As there is a premium paid by Holyrood to those councils who freeze the council tax, (that’s all of them I believe).

      Mind you Stirling and Aberdeen made noises about increasing the tax but both expected to still retain the premium while upping the council tax to their residents.

      So there you go – when it comes to paying out for policing it is Scotland’s territory but when it comes to collecting the revenues and Crown estate profits it all belongs to Her Majesty’s Treasury.

    391. Phronesis says:

      Apart from killing enormous numbers of citizens there’s also the tricky issue of environmental justice;

      ‘Nuclear hazards, linked to both U.S. weapons programs and civilian nuclear power, pose substantial environment justice issues. Nuclear power plant (NPP) reactors produce low-level ionizing radiation, high level nuclear waste, and are subject to catastrophic contamination events.

      Justice concerns include plant locations and the large potentially exposed populations, as well as issues in siting, nuclear safety, and barriers to public participation. Other justice issues relate to extensive contamination in the U.S. nuclear weapons complex, and the mining and processing industries that have supported it.

      …distributional justice issues of NPP sites in the U.S. and related procedural injustices in siting, operation, and emergency preparedness… justice concerns involving the U.S. nuclear weapons complex and the ways that uranium mining, processing, and weapons development have affected those living downwind, including a substantial American Indian population… the problem of high-level nuclear waste and the risk implications of the lack of secure long-term storage. The handling and deposition of toxic nuclear wastes pose new transgenerational justice issues of unprecedented duration, in comparison to any other industry’

      Kyne, D. and Bolin, B. Emerging Environmental Justice Issues in Nuclear Power and Radioactive Contamination. Int.J.Environ.Res Public Health 13(7). 2016

      Meanwhile… America is conflicted about ‘Flawed Pentagon Nuclear Cruise Missile Advocacy” and Congress is also fumbling about trying to quantify the costs of a redundant weapon

      ‘…The scary part of this is that a majority in Congress appears to have accepted these poor justifications for the Long Range Stand-Off missile (LRSO). The majority leadership in the Senate Armed Services Committee recently rejected …to delay funding for the LRSO to allow Congress to better study the justifications.

      The rejection made use of many of the same false claims, spin, and vague overstatements that the DOD letters contain… in the next sentence, DOD essentially told the lawmakers that unless they approved more money for the LRSO program to advance it further, they cannot be told what the cost will be.

      This is tantamount to blackmailing and wrong because several officials privately have said that they have already seen preliminary briefings on estimated life-cycle costs for both the LRSO missile and W80-4 warhead.

      Providing false claims, spin, and vague overstatements about the requirements and mission of the LRSO is bad enough. But unless President Obama during his remaining time in office decides to cancel the LRSO program, it could end up costing the taxpayers $20-$30 billion over the lifetime of the weapon for a nuclear weapon the United States doesn’t need’

      http://fas.org/blogs/security/2016/06/dod-lrso-letter

    392. mike cassidy says:

      Worth reminding ourselves of the high moral standing of the establishment which wishes to renew trident.

      http://archive.is/LxzvI

    393. DerekM says:

      And so we see who is really in control of the UK international arms dealers are us ,i know the nukes are the big headline but in the end they are no more than arms,it was never going to be stopped they are all in up to their necks in the deal.

      We can however with indy have it removed and not play a part in the gross arms industry that the UK sneaks about in.

      Vote indy or have some of vlads Tuplov M`s pointed at you.

    394. Stoker says:

      @ Graeme Doig (7:03pm)

      Oooo, get you, one of the chosen few getting through 🙂

      On a more serious note Graeme, i think Stu puts it perfectly over on the WOS Twitter when he says:
      “Auschwitz was a big employer. It didn’t kill a fraction as many people as one Trident missile could. Piss off with the “jobs” argument.”

      Hard to counter that, eh! Well done btw on getting your text through, wish i could have the temperament to listen to and monitor these programmes but any attempt would have me erupting blood within a week so i leave it to others mostly.

    395. Robert Louis says:

      Labour, the party of red Tories. Just watched Vernon Coaker of the labour party, wearing his red tory tie, in the house of commons, praising Theresa May and the Tory Government, whilst making a speech in praise of nuclear bombs. I thought he was going to cry he was so emotional.

      THAT is the modern Labour party. A bunch of cringing, Tory worshipping establishment goons, happy to spend billions on nuclear bombs, while their own constituents queue up at food banks to feed their kids. Un- Freaking-believable.

      ‘Socialism’, the Labour way.

    396. msean says:

      I am noticing again how the commons chamber is almost empty of the 650 MPs.

      Will watch as the lobby fodder ‘fall out’ of the bars to vote for Trident carrying submarines,without participating in the actual debate.

    397. call me dave says:

      Lots of SNP MPs on duty but where is the majority of the WM government …. Oh! the hordes will appear from the bars soon to ignore all the arguments and vote to continue with Trident, as expected.

      Most labour to vote for Trident lots to abstain 🙂 and a few to vote against.

      PS: Some humour!

      I’m shocked at this opportunity spurned for us in North Britain.

      http://archive.is/UFuGY

    398. defo says:

      If it’s existential threats yer after, £200,000,000,000 would be a great start on working out a way of keeping our emergent silicon based overlords friendly. !

      And/Or
      A awfy lot of dead Jihadi’s.

      Or
      In the region of 6,666 new hospitals @ £30m a pop.

      Or
      Twice that many super dooper shiny new primary schools.

      Or
      200bn Corneto’s. Summer, woohoo !

      Grouse. Your welcome.

      If you sold that 200T of rock at £1 per 0.0001g …

      Breathtakingly stupid. And not very nice 😉
      At least Hansard keeps a list of those responsible, it’ll come in handy.

    399. Fireproofjim says:

      The MOD has always geared up to fight the present war with last war’s weapons.
      In 1916 at the battle of Jutland the navy had Radio, but the admirals preferred to use flag signals resulting in lost communications and confusion.
      In 1945 they completed the commissioning of HMS Vanguard, the biggest ever British battleship despite the fact that battleships had been shown years before to be obsolete with the sinking of numerous battleships by aircraft from aircraft carriers. Vanguard never fired a shot in anger.
      Now they have put almost all their naval eggs into two enormous carriers which are a sitting target for anti-ship missiles and which are totally visible at all times to anyone with access to satellites.
      Trident was invisible when it first entered service but new technology means it will soon be trackable wherever it goes.

    400. Calum McKay says:

      Has anyone else detected that lately when a labour mp is being interviewed or making a speach they are reiterating the following:

      “Through and through labour”

      “Steeped in labour values head to toe”

      Or similar other such protestations of loyalty.

      If you have to state this type of declaration of loyalty, frankly I smell bull shit! I see it as a hastily cobbled together strategy to combat Corbyn”s undoubted loyalty.

      Makes you think back to the days of Souness and the millionaire badge kissers!

    401. galamcennalath says:

      Every Scot should ask themselves … who and what is the biggest threat right now to my job, health service, savings, pension, social safety net, justice, children’s education, privacy, environment, citizen’s right, security, and identity?

      I won’t give anyone a second guess as to what I think the biggest clear and present threat is!

      And, Trident is part of the problem, not in any way a solution.

    402. Tam Jardine says:

      Ruby

      From the RTS stats:

      “The ‘Unknown region’ includes:

      -Trade carried out by persons or entities which cannot be matched to a region

      -Data relating to Natural Gas and Electricity direct from pipeline and grid operators

      -Oil exports to EU countries direct from North Sea oil rigs

      -Government trade

      -Channel Islands and Isle of Man trade”

      I am trying to find their breakdown of these figures which is not easy on my telephone.

      Just to clarify though- the unknown region figures (for 2015) appear to account for £31.1billion exports AND £35.8 billion imports… so it does not merely skew the export figures.

    403. thomas says:

      @ shrodingers cat6.45pm

      Not wantin to take this off topic about history but just to say that a large proportion of lowland scottish being descended from the angles is one of the biggest myths in scottish history right up there with symeon of durham saying that edinburgh was founded by the angles.

      Thats no true , there was a tiny amount of angles on the seaboard of dumfries and galloway and the area of the lammermuir hills that had a small angle population somewhere between 630 ad to around 860 ad when they were hammered and driven south by the scots and danes and gall gaidheals from man and dublin.

      The teutonic scottish lowlander was an 18th century invention by the scottish cringers of the time , lowland gaelic was still being used as a community language in places like barr in the late 18th century.

      There were more scnadinavians in scotland than there ever were angles over a far longer period of time but this is rarely mentioned yet for obvious political reasons the small angle presence in the far south and east for a few hunner years is massively overplayed.

      The vast majority of scottish lowlanders are nothing to do with the angles.

      The english language in scotland was spread by the norman french not this mythical angle population .

    404. Lochside says:

      So Fanny May Might……quote ‘kill one hundred thousand innocent people’….a malevolent grimace, followed by a hissed ‘yes’.
      This is the despicable female sociopath now in charge of this rotten and corrupt state.

      Meanwhile our North Korean modelled media pump out unadulterated lies to the dumb,uneducated and disconnected. Barrow apparently need the jobs….building them but not living cheek by jowl with them…well sorry if I look like someone who doesn’t give a fuck.

      I (and many others) will repeat: Until the SNP start using real political artillery to demolish the BBC instead of powderpuff pop guns..we will struggle at best to win any referendum. That kind of WMD …Westminster’S Mass destruction…IS WHat we really need.

    405. galamcennalath says:

      call me dave says:

      “the hordes will appear from the bars soon to ignore all the arguments and vote”

      Aye. One of the many many things wrong with WM. Anyone not attending the debate should not get a vote.

      You might as well send hens to represent you.

    406. Clootie says:

      All day I have been listening to…Labour Politicians pushing support for a Tory policy to enable the UK to strut on the big stage…AND the media trying to convince me that the Billions spent will help keep a few local jobs. In the case of the latter they neglect to mention that a Scottish Naval base would exceed that promise several fold.

      The battle within the Labour Party is all about Whitehall keeping it’s two right wing parties in play. They don’t care which party is in power because THEY will always win any vote at Parliament.
      The U.K. Power brokers now have full control. All they had to do was filter the “professional political class” into each party and permanent control is assured.The Trident vote is future.

      The label Blue Whitehall or Red Whitehall is probably more accurate. It doesn’t matter how you vote because your choice is the puppet on the left hand or the puppet on the right hand leading to the puppet master remaining in control…the illusion of democracy.

      …OR we could chose Independence!

    407. Hamish100 says:

      Labour MP’s lining up pro – nukes with my TU.. GMB

      HE WHO PAYS THE PIPER….

      It also seems to be attack Corbyn support the tories.

      What a bunch.

    408. Mike d says:

      Lochside 8.31pm.agree till the gloves come off, and we retaliate against the lying cheating propagandist scumbag ebc. We will never move forward.

    409. Hamish100 says:

      Seems Cooperative sponsored MP’S ARE ALSO PRO NUKES. Curious.

    410. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      The Rev has beaten me to the draw, it seems. The “jobs” aspect being quoted by some of the unions is indeed complete tosh. If the Trident spend were maintained, the money would pay for jobs wherever it landed, whether to alternative armed forces or to something else entirely. (Though they won’t admit it in public, even the armed forces’ top brass – navy included – realise that Trident is the insatiable cuckoo in their funding nest.)

      This never was about jobs, it was always about UK prestige. Just the same as with Scottish independence – the BritNats never come out and admit it but what really bothers them so much about indy is their abject fear of loss of precious amour propre. Hence their absurd contradictory stance in wanting so desperately to hang on to a country full (as they claim) of whinging freeloading scroungers.

      The BritNats obsession with deadly toys is a complete distraction, a completely fictive defence, while again and again they cravenly surrender without resistance genuine prime national economic and intellectual assets such as the chip designer ARM.

    411. Smallaxe says:

      Smallaxe was admitted to hospital this afternoon for his
      Scheduled surgery,he has asked me (his Wife)to thank all who
      sent him Love,Light and Prayers (his words).I thank you all as
      well,he sends you all,Peace,Love and Happiness to you and yours.Soar Alba!

      PS. He says not to leave any replies to this post as he does
      not want to take the thread off topic.Thank you all.

    412. Macart says:

      @Yesindyref2

      Thought you might like that one. 🙂

    413. Tam The Bam says:

      The £:$ exchange rate plummetted after the Brexit vote by at least 10%.

      As the UK is paying the US for these shiny new subs/missiles surely the price should have gone up by that much in £ terms.

      An extra £20bn added to the cost surely?

    414. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath:

      You might as well send hens to represent you.

      Well, at least hens would be alive and pecking. The Labour abstainers don’t have any outward sign of sentient life whatever.

      The living dead – Zombie representatives!

    415. Mike d says:

      Onwards 7.o4 pm.aye but the trolls of the 77th brigade cannot give one good reason why we are better together at the end of any debate. Other than,too wee, too small, and too stupid

    416. call me dave says:

      Mhairi Black didn’t say the renewal of Trident was just WM ‘willy waggling’ but her wee gem of a speech meant much the same as far as I was concerned. 🙁

      Alan Brown MP SNP made the same points and demolished the jobs spin and the costings too so ‘No blank cheque for Trident’

      Our side are winning the arguments but will lose this particular battle tonight and it will not be fully reported in the media tomorrow.

    417. msean says:

      These are Labour party MPs,but in all honesty,they sound like right wing Tories. They will never again win a UK general election again while folk can vote for real Tories.

      Liked Alan Browns quip re warfare in the Tory party.

    418. clan rossy says:

      mayday calling mayday calling

      im going to press the button

      boooooooooooooooooooooooooom

      ah thats the moaning fucking

      scots sorted should have done it years ago .

      my god what a monster that may is we really
      have to get out of this union . jesus christ
      she did not even flinch when she said it .
      the snp mps should just boycott wastemonster

      no one gives a shit what they say down south
      our voice does not matter it is becoming very
      depressing . the snp mps should just come home
      declare u.d.i. join the eu and build a big fucking wall at
      border .

    419. Graeme Doig says:

      Aye Stoker. It’s no easy being me (winky smile thing)

      It’s mind boggling the lengths Westminster and its unionist lackies will go to justify this ego trip of theirs.

      And there’s eff all we can do about it …

    420. defo says:

      Auntie at it again-already.

      “Labour MP Roger Godsiff tells MPs that he was formerly a multilateralist who had “never been a member of groups like [the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament]” but that he has changed his mind.

      “The world has changed and that’s why I’ve changed my view,” he tells MPs- going in the opposite direction of prospective Labour leader Owen Smith ”

      Gon yersel Rodger

      Why not say in the same direction of the current effing leader ?

      Rhetorical. U no.

    421. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      H Andrew Haddow.

      You beat me to it so I’ll just point out that the “Empire” book, so highly thought of by Papko, was published in 2004, 2 years AFTER “How the Scots Invented the Modern World”.

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Scots-Invented-Modern-World/dp/0609809997/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468872186&sr=1-1&keywords=How+Scotland+Invented

      See thae britnats? Green cheese comes to mind…

    422. heedtracker says:

      The £:$ exchange rate plummeted after the Brexit vote by at least 10%.

      The ARM £24bn, $32bn takeover today was another hideous example of tory BBC led propaganda. Thanks to planet toryboy Brexit, the Japanese have jumped on a 10% price drop bargain but that’s not how the tory media ‘s blasting it out at everyone. BBC’s just a total party politic broadcast on behalf of Snatcher Thatcher 2 and the Conservative and unionist party, incredible corruption of broadcast mass media not seen in the UK since yesterday.

      Half of the toryboy’s debating in Westminster this eveing look and sound pissed up too.

    423. defo says:

      Surely there’s none of them low enough to sell a renew vote for the sake of internal party politics and/or personal advancement ?

      Nah. No ‘normal’ sane person…

      Mind, the thank-you ‘drink’ on £200,000,000,000 worth of tax payer funded contract’s greases the way into a truck load of Non-exec directorships .

      Same as it ever was.
      Feel the fear, and scream if you want to go faster.

    424. call me dave says:

      Seems like the pro Tridents have not got enough MPs in the house to speak up for their case (what a disgrace) as the Speaker Bercow having to call all anti-Trident SNP and N Ireland MPs. 🙂

      Shepherd;Law and Ferrier all excellent. 🙂

      Not a red face to be seen on the other benches but they’re sullen just the same.

    425. Tinto Chiel says:

      People Carrier, you might find this interesting if you haven’t seen it before:

      http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/scotsirish.htm

      Have just listened to those Tory braying donkeys after May said she would press the nuclear button. What appalling people they are, matched by the Blairites heckling Corbyn. Why don’t they just cross the floor and join the Tories? I see Crispin “Poppers” Blunt is only voting against on cost grounds, so stuff the moral considerations.

      I would make them watch Doctor Strangelove on a continuous loop but they probably wouldn’t get it.

    426. heedtracker says:

      “Tories want a blank cheque for these useless weapons, and for what? To preserve Westminster’s self-indulgent image of importance.”
      Mhairi Black MP

      It certainly is, lots of smarmy tories doing the colonial master baiter thing, sticking it to the vile seps. But to be fair, its kept all the UKOK toryboy twits contended, happy and glorious to long rein over us, and off WoS cif tonight. Funny that.

    427. Mike d says:

      Smallaxe get better soon.

    428. call me dave says:

      Hmm …. Shurley schome mishtake!

      “Hurry up the front bench ‘wind ups’ must begin prompt” says the speaker.

      I thought they have been winding up us Scots for 300 years. 🙁

      Our lot did well tonight as usual and even the folk darn Sarf who dared a peak at the debate must, in their heart of hearts, see the quality of our MPs then compare and wonder WTF!

    429. Mike d says:

      The trolls and their unionist hirelings will never silence our voices. Truth will out.

    430. crazycat says:

      @ defo at 9.08

      Why not say in the same direction of the current effing leader ?

      I quite like that he compared himself with Smith – shows the latter up as an unprincipled crawler.

    431. defo says:

      Kim Jong-un must be pishing his self laughing.

      Ian Fleming was nearly as establishment as you can get.

      Cruella scared of a wee fat asian guy in a funny suit.(he would do his PR no harm by stroking a pussy btw)
      Are you reading Mr Cairns?

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Fleming

    432. Macart says:

      @Mrs Smallaxe

      Just as important as this thread is the Wings community.

      You give Smallaxe our very best.

    433. heedtracker says:

      Also, on the day when UKOK blows a couple of hundred billion on nothing, my pet toryboys are completetly UKOK silent. Wonder why?

      Nothing from Dr NO.

      https://twitter.com/drscottthinks?lang=en-gb

      Kevrage, zip. Well he RT’s a swipe at WoS.

      https://twitter.com/kevverage

      Even my Slovene girlfriend’s got nothing to Trident say. Too busy going mental on rancid The Graun’s comment section.

      https://twitter.com/ProfTomkins

      Oh well, we’ll all go to toryboy heaven together.

    434. jockmcx says:

      Oh dear the snp mp’s are in trouble again,but this time ‘FOR’
      clapping Angus Robertson’s trident speech.

      Is the HOC clapped out yet?

    435. Meindevon says:

      Craig Murray discussing Trident on RT news right now.

    436. Gary45% says:

      No surprise the Yoons are scooping up the Loco Pops in the Westminster bar.
      Empty debate chamber ( apart from the only party who actually work in Westminster)SNP
      We are saddled with this, whether we like it or not, only until we get Independence will we be rid of this situation.
      As said before, war breeds fear, fear brings unrest, then its easy to manipulate the electorate.
      I do not find Russia or Iran a serious threat, according to the empire media they are!?!?
      I cannot believe any sane person could accept having Nuclear weapons on their own doorstep.
      Not in my name.
      Tick. tock
      ps, Smallaxe get well soon.
      Our time will come.

    437. The Great Brutish Empire,

      out of all the most destructive, murderous,evil empires that have existed,

      The Great Brutish Empire is seen by most of the worlds leading historians (outwith UK&NI) as the worst,

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IGHByjToO4

    438. schrodingers cat says:

      mairi black was the only person to highlight the reall danger from accidents, either by chance or terror attack being the biggest risk we face

      #indyref2

    439. liz g says:

      Mrs Smallaxe
      Not derailing a thread at all to take a minute to send our best to one of our own.
      Will you keep us informed of his progress?
      Also please take care of yourself.

    440. Marie Clark says:

      Just been watching channel 5’s ” Big debate” on brexit, on a friends telly. What a waste of time. It’ still quite clear that nobody has any idea what the hell is going to happen. Some of them seem to think that we’ve had the vote and that England is free already. England you’ll note. Sigh.

      Trident is a waste of time and money, and so, quite frankly is the debate at Westminster. We all knew when Cameron called the debate what the result would be. They’ll crawl out the bars and troup through the lobby and vote to keep it. Well if they want it, let them tie it up out side the palace of Westminster. Roll on independence and we can tell them tae GTF oot o’ here.

      Smallaxe, I wish you well with your surgery. Mrs smallaxe, please send him all our good wishes from the wingers.

    441. call me dave says:

      Aye! The ayes have it

    442. defo says:

      What a shower !

      Small compensation when your deid, but at least we didn’t vote for it, and won’t be paying for it !
      🙂

    443. shiregirl says:

      I only hope that when (not if!) we are independent, we kick Trident out of Scotland and park it somewhere that will make our English friends think again – perhaps if it was in the Thames it would get their attention and people would think twice. It’s like they feel that if there was an incident, it isn’t so bad as it’s in Scotland and that’s miles away from London…

      I feel this will strengthen the Yes vote when Indyref2 comes along.

    444. Valerie says:

      @Mrs Smallaxe
      Good strong vibes to Smallaxe for his health and you take care, as well.
      ———————–

      Watched a good few hours of the Trident debate, and as always, SNP did us proud. Many of them popped out of the debate, and vids appeared, of them doing short speeches for CND, who were outside all day.

      Some nice comments on various newsthreads from folk down south about how impressive and gutsy, SNP were, and of course that’s a red rag to YOONS, who jumped in with filth.

      Labour absolutely shameless as some used the debate to kick Corbyn. I wouldn’t pee on these Labour folk if they were on fire. Can’t imagine how Labour members feel if they were looking to be represented by these narcissists.

    445. Grouse Beater says:

      Not a single English politician addressed the glaring contradiction, if they want Trident so badly why not keep it in England?

    446. heedtracker says:

      BBC Newsnight, ex rancid The Graun ligger boosts Owen Smith to red toryboy greatness. Pretty good sales pitch for him too. Owen says Iraq war was v v bad, El Tone is v v bad. Poor old JC/Come on JC:D

    447. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ahundredthidiot @ 10:48:

      Fascists invaded Poland in 39

      In the interests of accuracy on a site notably dedicated to it, it is worth explaining to the innocent and reminding the forgetful that Poland in 1939 was invaded on one side by Nazi Germany and on the other side by the Soviet Union, operating in a notorious secret accord.

      Of course, the above description might be said to fit both sides.

      But it took the Poles 50 years to finally get rid of their more-persistent occupier and become a truly independent country again. (Something that all those who truly believe in the independence of small countries will of course readily welcome.)

    448. msean says:

      I read that book,Empire. Interesting read.The empire used the same tactics on India that they used on Scotland.It’s a lesson on how not to rule.

    449. Luigi says:

      With a new generation of submersible, hunter killer drones just round the corner, Trident 2 will be obsolete before it is even completed. Fact.

    450. heedtracker says:

      Not a single English politician addressed the glaring contradiction, if they want Trident so badly why not keep it in England?

      There are lot of hideous UKOK drivers in this, a lot of it comes down to pure English atavistic power and muscle flexing by the Britnats, you will do as we say Scots and like it.

      Also, during the ref 2014, Trident was pointed directly at Scots voters, vote YES and you lose 22, 000 jobs, nuke protection, NATO might want Scotland but youre a pack of hypocrites, George Robertson in particular telling tales to America that they’d lose Scotland strategically and that that would be a threat to world peace. So all sorts of maniacal Britnat fury riding on the Bomb in their Scotland region.

    451. Vambomarbeleye says:

      We have Liz with her magic hat and now we have May with her magic dildos

    452. Clootie says:

      I expected a strong vote in support of Trident renewal…However I was still saddened when it became a reality…more so than I expected.

      I do wonder how the Labours MPs who supported this can sleep at night…I don’t know how anyone who voted for this can sleep at night.

      I hope the list of those who voted in support is circulated widely.

    453. Dr Jim says:

      Another thing that debate tonight made crystal clear was that half a dozen Jehadis with small arms bombs and a tugboat could take over the Falkland Islands and there’s nothing the UK dould do about it till it was too late (whit a riddy)

      Deter that ya numpties

    454. Effijy says:

      Hamish100 says:

      18 July, 2016 at 7:21 pm

      EFFIJY -writes

      “Just seen an MP ask Mayhem if she would press the Trident Button if she knew it would kill 100,000 innocent people.

      Instantly she answered YES!

      Does that make WHITSHERNAME better or worse than a person with mental health and anger issues drive a truck at innocents?

      Hi Hamish, it makes her exactly the same as equally May
      doesn’t care who she Kills, men, women, or children.

      She shows all the leadership values of Killer Blair, and knows that the UK is corrupt enough to let of any leading politicians crimes.

    455. K1 says:

      Warmest wishes to Smallaxe. I’ve lit a wee candle for him on this night…I echo others in requesting ye keep us informed of his progress Mrs Smallaxe, he’s needed back here on the Wings, there’s the Small matter of an Indy ref2 upon us soon…all hands and good hearts required to be on board…

    456. galamcennalath says:

      heedtracker says:

      “Not a single English politician addressed the glaring contradiction, if they want Trident so badly why not keep it in England?”

      I suppose it shows the clarity with which we can logically associate the concepts of ‘English’ and ‘England’ isn’t shared by most MPs in WM.

      It their mindsets, England, Scotland, Union, UK, and Britain all merge into a fuzzy entity best described as simply Greater England.

    457. James Barr Gardner says:

      Well it’s now confirmed Theresa May is the reincarnated Margaret Thatcher !

      Scotland it’s time to leave this Westminster cesspit of war criminals.

      March on the 30th folks make the ground shake !

    458. dramfineday says:

      Ah Luigi, what you are forgetting is that our subs come with a built in sand bank which, as the drone closes in, they quickly deploy hence appearing to the drone as a bit of harmless landscape………clever stuff seen here in action:-

      http://www.channel4.com/news/nuclear-submarine-runs-aground-off-scottish-coast

      PS best regards to Smallaxe, Mrs Smallaxe

    459. Doug says:

      Having read both the books “How the Scots invented,” i came to the conclusion that many of them were no better than their “masters”.

      http://www.harpercollins.ca/9781554682331/how-the-scots-invented-canada

    460. Marco McGinty says:

      As others have intimated, I would also consider May’s comment akin to those of any terrorist. Deliberately setting out to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in a wartime situation, is an act of terrorism, no matter how or why the action has come about. End of.

      As for this deterrent that nuclear weapons supposedly give us, I would love a pro-WMD unionist to please explain to me why all of those non-nuclear WMD countries have never experienced nuclear attack?

    461. Greannach says:

      People in Barrow in England appeared to TV news to be fully supportive of Trident. Maybe they’d care to store it there in their enthusiasm.

    462. gordoz says:

      Don’t suppose we could move trident to Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale constituency, since they voted for David Mundell & Conservatives.

      Only fair after all ???

    463. Meg merrilees says:

      Disgusted to count that there were only 6 Tories on the HOC benches during Mhairi Black’s speech on Trident, yet finally, as usual, those voting for renewal topped 400!!!

      Someone should bring a motion making it compulsory for those voting to attend all of the debate. ( I know that might mean little work was completed but it might achieve a more balanced, credible democracy).

      Stoker @ 6.42 pm Re the earlier mystery of my 3 missing posts, Mea Culpa! I was typing my own name with a hyphen which confused the system. Won’t do that again!!

      Best wishes to Smallaxe – hoping that the chance of Indy2 will be the spur to a speedy recovery.

    464. Effijy says:

      So Westminster demands, even craves, Trident Renewal!
      Over 80% of the Non-Scottish MPs in Westminster have voted
      to put Weapons of Mass Destruction back into Scotland where it endangers our most densely populated cities, and awaits its use against millions of innocents.

      The Blue Tories have Trained their Red Tory Monkeys so well. They stand shoulder to shoulder with their Masters at ever opportunity, and vote faithfully with them, in hope that one day, they might be able to think for themselves.

      Of Scotland’s 59 MPs, 58 have voted against Trident, so as in Westminster Speak, this means that yet again Scottish Votes, and wishes, mean absolutely nothing to our Colonial Masters.

      If 99% plus of Scottish MPs do not want Trident renewal, and over 80% of the remaining MPs do want it, it means that we are 2 totally different nations!
      We are not compatible, we have opposing moral and priorities.
      Scots are as well to trade off our UK votes for some Beads and a Mirror, or even a shot of Fire Water.
      Our UK vote makes no difference to the outcome in 99% of cases.

      Look also at the EU Referendum, if each and every vote cast by the Scots was for Remain, a 100% turnout, Scotland would still be forced to do the bidding of our Colonial Masters.

      Our position has no connection with democracy!
      We are Demonised, Dictated to, and Dismissed by the English Right Wing.

      I have the greatest of respect for Mahatma Ghandi, a man who lead a peaceful protest, and victory, over the strongest nation on earth, at that time, but I now fear that some Scots will lash out in violence through the frustrations of being constantly lied to and ignored.

      This Nation can no longer continue to squeak from beneath the Tories Jackboot. Stand now and be a nation again!

    465. Tam Jardine says:

      Watched a fair amount of the debate today in the Commons.

      I was struck by the tone coming from the tories, red and blue. They still labour under the misapprehension that the UK is some kind of force for good in the world.

      Despite Chilcot essentially condemning Blair’s government and by extension Westminster for manufacturing a war of aggression and lying to the public, they still think we are the good guys.

      Despite the instability our WM government helped foster and all the lives lost, the devastation to livelihoods, economies and the destruction of property they still think we are a force for good.

      Despite Hans Blix and his team finding no WMDs we went in- and now we are renwing our WMD delivery system.

      The rest of the world must be looking on in absolute amazement at the UK right now. Instead of a quiet period of reflection after conducting economic and diplomatic self harm by voting to leave the EU and the damnation of the Chilcot report- what does good old Blighty do?

      They install a new super right wing government including some of the prime knob-ends who got us into this mess and we green light our new £200 billion nucler submarine aquisition.

      The UK is all over the place right now and despite the pish getting spraffed by both sides in the house in support of the government tonight you would have to say that the biggest existential threat today to the stability of the west is not ISIS or Russia- it is the delusional superiority complex of the political system of the UK!

      And most of the bastards didn’t even sit through the bleeding debate! We need out of this asap.

    466. Capella says:

      Watched the whole debate in the House of Trolls. The SNP were the stars, with some great contributions also from Plaid Cymru SLDP and the Labour rebels.
      But what a woeful performance from the Tory and Labour warmongers. Truly dangerous sociopaths with no compassion.

      We really must get out of this poisonous union.

      Sending warm wishes for Smallaxe. May he be wrapped up in love and the best of care, and Mrs Smallaxe too. Hail Caesar!

    467. cearc says:

      Best wishes to smallaxe and mrs. smallaxe, hope all goes well.

      It is really quite sad that they still consider themselves to be so important in the world.

      Boris Johnson, arriving in Brussels today, “We are not gonna be in any way abandoning our leading role in European participation of all kinds,”

      http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/video/boris-johnson-we-are-leaving-the-european-union-not-europe/

      I am sure the whole of Europe was delighted to hear that they wouldn’t have to worry about not having the Brits leading them! (with the exception of the btl commenters of course.)

    468. Robert Peffers says:

      @jockmcx says: 18 July, 2016 at 10:03 pm:

      “Oh dear the snp mp’s are in trouble again,but this time ‘FOR’
      clapping Angus Robertson’s trident speech.

      Is the HOC clapped out yet?”

      Naw! The hale clamjamfry o thaim are feart they micht get the clap frae the SNP Members.

    469. People Carrier says:

      Tinto Chiel

      Many thanks for the link. Totally fascinating, never knew of that particular viewpoint.

      BTW – when did the Norman nobility start speaking English in preference to French? Is there a distinct period? Is there any evidence supporting the contention that Norman nobles propagated Inglis through southern Scotland? Be very interested to learn about that.

    470. call me dave says:

      Hark the Herald.
      Trident vote:

      http://archive.is/fpRdd

      SNP Summer campaign:

      http://archive.is/aN0is

      Corbyn:

      http://archive.is/Pa4E9

    471. Tam Jardine @ 11.49. Great post.

    472. Capella says:

      Last post has disappeared. No matter. My best wishes to smallaxe and Mrs smallaxe. Wishing you the best of love and care in the days ahead.

    473. carjamtic says:

      I watched the ‘debate’ most of it anyway,I have also tuned into parliament live at other,irregular intervals.

      I have never seen such denial,they do not know what the fuck they are doing,truly astonished at the level of ‘debate’ it’s like going back in time.

      Other’s will remember ICI,it feels the same,once a giant now defunct,gone,finished,try taking a drive around the old industrial areas of Middlesbrough,now just an industrial wasteland.

      It was all blamed on the management,the boardroom,failure to modernise,innovate,invest,it went to the wall.

      Westminster and it’s Red/Blue Tories are going the same way,I can see it,even they can see it,yet they do nothing,why,I wonder….because to own up,to admit that it is unfit for purpose,would be to admit failure.

      It is time to leave,this out of date,out of touch,old place,before it finally lay’s waste to Scotland,they will do anything to hold on to the past,when they were ‘great’ and that includes sacrificing Scotland.

      Even the hacks know it,they must be getting a right few bob,some might think they deserve it,for this amount of lying,today’s charade,for me is the final straw,the last desperate act of an empire on it’s knees.

      I am of the opinion now,that our MP’s can no longer legitimise that place,it’s time to call them home….the Beagle has landed and the yoon dodo is confirmed,no more….evolution, what a bastard.

    474. defo says:

      The coup de grâce.

      “The SNP opposed the move, saying nuclear weapons were “immoral” and the continued stationing of submarines on the Clyde could accelerate moves towards independence.
      After the vote, the SNP said the government “must respect Scotland’s clear decision against Trident renewal and remove these nuclear weapons of mass destruction from the Clyde”.

      Played a blinder, not a second wasted.
      This WILL give us the few % that’s required for NS and the teams bums to be squeak free.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36830923

      As I was saying earlier, about our silicon based overlords…
      They might actually be chlorine based :-0

      “In theory, this storage density would allow all books ever created by humans to be written on a single post stamp,” said Dr Otte.
      Or, by another measure, the entire contents of the US Library of Congress could be stored in a 0.1mm-wide cube.”

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-36824902

      Speaking with the daughters earlier, the 11yr old was angsty about being unable to live & work in/visit the EU when she’s big.
      Looked sufficiently reassured ( dad’s usually right) with the solid prediction that we would never actually leave, by dint of being free before she hits S3, with a probability of 95%, and by the end of Uni (I hope, she has the ability in spades) of around 98%+.
      Further debate (e.g she didn’t know that we had been bought and sold for English gold) had us agree on 99.99 %

    475. schrodingers cat says:

      OT thomas
      @ shrodingers cat6.45pm

      Not wantin to take this off topic about history but just to say that a large proportion of lowland scottish being descended from the angles is one of the biggest myths in scottish history

      I never said they were, i said anglo saxon culture influenced the lowlands from 500 ad onwards, especially linguistically.
      genetic studys shows little descent. undoubtably, after 1066 anglo saxon refugees and slaves came into the area as well, but but even then, these “anglo saxons” from the north of england were a genetic mix of Anglo saxon and britons and in insufficient numbers to leave a large genetic fingerprint in the area, (the normans werent either and they spoke francienne, not anglo saxon)

      the linguistic influence of anglo saxon came from his wife, margret and was the language of the people of the lowlands (along with pockets of Cumbric) the nobles soon after in scotland adopted french as their prefered language of court.

      the point, was that when malcolm canmore came north and defeated macbeth, he was a king of strathclyde, the rest of the lowlands wasnt part of his realm, after defeating macbeth, he controlled the remanants of pictland and then went on to add the lowlands to his realm.

      from local kingdoms (fife, dalriada etc) to a north and south pictland, to pictland, to alba and moray, the present day scotland (the land bit is an anglo saxon term) was a construct started by malcom canmore which included pictland+ Strathclyde+lothian+the borders+caithness and orkney.

      he was one of scotlands most successful kings, creating the boundaries, more or less, we see today. He may have been fortunate as events conspired to help him but eitherway, he brought together quite disparate areas of the north and welded them together into a new kingdom. Scotland.

      im not sure there is even a statue of him in scotland?

    476. Macart says:

      472 for – 117 against and 58 of the latter were Scottish MPs. That’s 58 of 59 Scottish MPs. Almost Scotland’s entire representation to the Westminster parliament and basically the mandate of the Scottish electorate ignored.

      For ‘partnership’ see under sit down and eat your cereal.

      The next and already redundant generation of weapons of mass delusion will be foisted upon a country that rejected them. 520 jobs? The basing of Scotland’s conventional SDF at Faslane and Coulport would have more than secured the area’s employment and long standing relationship with the defence industry.

      £200bn is quite a sum. How many jobs could that generate? How many projects could it fund? How many mouths could it feed?

      In this time of ongoing austerity. A time where Brexit has taken the UK to the brink of yet another recession and that massive already existent debt ain’t getting any smaller, spending £200bn on what is effectively an entirely useless and technologically redundant weapon of mass murder is nothing short of madness. That it is done without the express permission of the host country makes a complete mockery of the term ‘better together’.

      When next the Scottish Government asks our permission to change this arrangement, bear tonight’s vote in mind. Bear in mind Chilcot, Brexit, the Scotland bill, EVEL and broad fucking shoulders.

    477. Ken500 says:

      In a few years unelected, illegitimate psycho May and the rest of the bunch will be gone along with Trident and the rest of the nuclear armament and stations. Never,ever to be elected again. They are finished along with Cameron. It took him a year to destroy himself and bankrupt Britain.. Now they are still trying to destroy the rest of the world, This vote is just an act of provocation. This vote is just another attempt to line their pockets on illegal evasion and War.

      The cowards are hiding behind the Nuclear shield to bomb, kill, sanction and starve innocent people. They are war criminals. When Blair and the Ministry of Defence start getting sued and bankrupted. These pycho bastards will be gone to think again. Back into oblivion. Independence is coming soon to be rid of these lying criminals. Cameron is finished. So will be the rest of them. Dirty, greedy, cowardly, lying criminals. This is just an attempt to line their and their associates pockets with £Billions of public money. They will not get away with it.

    478. Sandy says:

      Talking about contamination & polution, whatever happened to the old American ships which ended up in the North Sea for disposal?

    479. Stoker says:

      Bombs
      Bullets
      Corruption

      I’m a Scot get me out of here!
      🙁

    480. Stoker says:

      Although the result of the vote was something we all expected, it doesn’t make it any easier to take. If i never see or hear from that London cesspit again it will be far too soon. Fair scunnert at being dominated and ruled over by those warmongering agents.
      Mayhem & Co strike again! I hope the wrath of hell visits them all!

    481. Brian McHugh says:

      Labour and Tory’s… two wings of the same ugly bird.

    482. Tinto Chiel says:

      @ People Carrier.

      I’m up early and away most of today but will reply off topic tonight.

      Thinking of Mr and Mrs Smallaxe today.

      If I had time I would link to “Your Attention Please” by Peter Porter. It says it all about nuclear madness.

      The Tories and Labour are like slavering dogs of war.

    483. Ian Brotherhood says:

      The fundraiser just launched by Iraq War Families Campaign Group, currently at £1,930. (All over the news this morning, so I assume it’s only just kicked off…)

      They’ve set a target of £50k on the site but are really aiming for £150k.

      https://www.crowdjustice.co.uk/case/chilcot/

    484. Breeks says:

      With Brexit, England votes white, Scotland votes black. Strike one.
      With Trident, England votes black, Scotland votes white. Strike two.
      With EVEL, England votes black, Scotland doesn’t get a vote. Strike three.

      And all the time the BBC pours poison into my eyes and ears.

      Get us the fuck out of here. Why do we kid ourselves we are living in a democracy when we are the only mugs who respect democracy, yet nowhere is it effective save as a prison cell for our sovereignty?

      How gullable are we to believe Indyref 2 is the only key to our liberation? If democracy is a strength, then why is it the mechanism which cripples Scotland and gives rat faced propagandists absolute freedom of movement inside our borders?

      Democracy has failed us. It is a noble principle, but it has been set upon and abused, and rendered dysfunctional by the assault. Let us revert to Scots Law and assert our popular sovereignty which our laws resolutely defends from all usurpers.

      We’ve tried democracy. We have virtually uniform SNP pro independence representation. Use that mandate. Invoke the Declaration of Arbroath and the Claim of right, and assert our popular sovereignty. End this damned Union which spits in the eye of our democracy. Yes, there will be consequences. Yes there will be resentment in some quarters, but it will be done. The Act of Union repealed, and Scotland will breathe in the freedom to engage with the world constructively and on our terms, not down the barrel of missile launch tube.

      The UK just wants Trident to assure it’s permanent seat on the UN Security Council. Well, what does it say about the UN that permanent seats are reserved for war criminals armed with nuclear weapons who go to war “in good faith”, and do under the flag of democracy what ISIS does in the names of Islam?

      If the UN had the integrity, it would throw the UK out of its permanent seat and put it outside the room.

    485. Sassenach says:

      Tam Jardine @11-49

      Your post needs spreading all over, by internet, on posters, The National (perhaps?), etc.

      Best summary yet!

    486. mealer says:

      Breeks 7.29,
      Na.Nicola has a better plan.Patience and persistence and hard work will bring independence.

    487. galamcennalath says:

      I’d like to see the lot gone, removed from Scotland. If the English are so keen, let them have it in their own territory.

      There are multiple aspects to what gets called simply Trident. Bases, submarines, missiles, warheads. The thing I really really object to is the storage of the UK’s WMD arsenal at Coulport and the transport of these demonic things along our roads and through our towns.

      As I understand it, Faslane is a deep water access base for the submarines to operate from.

      So, I’m pragmatic when it comes to Indy negotiations. As I stated in an earlier comment, we should not allow the WMDs on land. However, perhaps we should be open to a ten year lease or whatever on Faslane. It might be a good trade off for something else.



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