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Posted on June 29, 2015 by

Here’s the Times (Scotland edition) last Wednesday:

timeswednesday

A lot has happened since then, of course.

Here’s the Scotland News page of the Times website the next day. As you can see at the bottom left, the paper published a piece pointing out that Wednesday’s front-page splash and editorial leader were completely and utterly wrong, although weirdly the false version was still in place, unedited, as the main story on the page.

timesthursday

The new story was unequivocal about the first one being drivel, though it was careful to pile the blame on its source rather than the paper’s own failure to fact-check:

“Buckingham Palace made a humiliating climbdown last night, insisting that it had not intended to criticise Scotland over concerns about cuts to funding for the monarchy. 

Sir Alan Reid, the Queen’s treasurer, issued an unprecedented statement as he moved to end a growing dispute over the SNP government’s willingness to pay for Scotland’s share of royal spending.

He said that the Palace had never intended to make a ‘criticism of Scotland or of the first minister or to suggest that the first minister had cast doubt on the continued funding of the monarchy’.”

Yet the Scotland News page on Friday looked like this – with the corrected version having now vanished but the wrong version still the main article:

timesfriday1

And here’s Saturday, with lots of new news but still the same lead:

timessaturday

And here’s Sunday:

timessunday

And here’s Monday:

timesmonday

The Times has now led its Scotland News section with a story that it knows to be complete and utter rubbish for six straight days. (The allegation was known to be nonsense on Wednesday too, because it was debunked more than six months ago.) Other news has come and gone, including the paper itself fleetingly printing the true version, but for almost a week the Times has insisted on telling the lie.

The original article hasn’t been amended in any way to point out that it’s untrue. At the time of writing, the page still contains a prominent column-top link to the thundering (and equally wrong) “insurrection!” editorial, but no longer contains even the small and well-buried link to the correct version that was there on Friday. Someone coming back from a week-long holiday would have no idea the story was total drivel.

The utter contempt for Scotland betrayed by the continued existence of the article is one thing. But at £26 a month for a digital subscription, you’d hope the UK’s most esteemed and famous newspaper would at least think a little more of its customers.

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      The fast-moving world of news | Politics Scotla...

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    1. No no no...Yes says:

      I’ve heard the term lazy journalism but this is a prize winner. Alternatively, it could just be blatant propaganda.

      Complaint on it’s way to the regulator yet?

    2. Macart says:

      No, they really don’t.

      If any title epitomises the establishment, its the Times.

      Scotland has no media, and one title out of all the major dailies available does not a democracy make. The current Scottish government, the independence movement and indeed the wider Scottish body politic will never receive a fair hearing from the UK media… not ever. Their singular failure to represent fairly their readerships says it all really. We’re not part of their corporate/state world view and hopefully never will be.

      We’re doing this the hard way, they’ve made this abundantly clear. Their problem though, is that we are still doing it without them.

    3. Luigi says:

      It’s a favourite propaganda technique of the MSM:

      Publish a lie, headline it possible, ignore the rebuffs and keep printing it for as long as possible to maximise the effects. If necessary, publish a tiny wee retraction a few weeks later, trying to avoid it appearing like an apology.

      Job done.

    4. Calgacus says:

      The BBC and The Times used to be well respected for their journalism but they have been shown up as nothing more than lying propaganda for our imperial masters.

      A lot of credit for this must go to Rev.Stu and the many cybernats who tirelessly expose the sheer and utter mendacity of these lying cheating colonial bastards.

    5. call me dave says:

      The Times they are a changing…but not yet it seems.

      Well done for keeping an eye on that false story but it’s what we ‘up North’ expect from the MSM and ‘The Thunderer’ is no exception.

      The Observer.
      Promises are not being kept.

      https://archive.is/N1B9h

    6. ahundredthidiot says:

      If anyone still thinks that this is accidental, lazy or otherwise really needs to take stock of their own sanity.

      To suggest that there is no agenda against Scotland makes no sense…..we are trying to break away from the institution, threaten the seat at the security council, deprive our southern neighbour of our oil, take the blue out of their flag, stop Andy Murray celebrations at Wimbledon, I could go on and on.

      Sure as shit there is an agenda. And it will get worse before it gets better.

    7. thomaspotter2014 says:

      Maybe it’s a dodgy memo leak from another establishment outlet?

      Events are heading in a Monty-Pythonesque direction,that’s for sure.

      Would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sinister

      What we’re looking at right there is the begin of the end days of the old order.

    8. call me dave says:

      David Torrance…not so much circumlocution in his latest article but stating the bleeding obvious in the Herald about the real labour party and that branch office one ‘up North’

      Things ain’t what they used to be right enough. 🙂

      He gets paid for this stuff!

      No link as I cant be bothered and I’ll never get the time back.

    9. George Campbell says:

      Is there any way in which a charge of malicious mischief can be brought against the perpetrators of this lie?

    10. One_Scot says:

      Quote from twitter,

      ‘It’s kind of worrying that the UK’s most renowned “newspaper of record” has journalistic standards so much lower than mine.’

      To be honest, I don’t think they could tie your shoelaces.

    11. Dcanmore says:

      well, the whole world has to know about it too i.e. SNPBAD.

      There’s no such thing as ‘newspapers’ any more (at least in the UK), just propaganda sheets wit a bit of commentary. But then again the greatest trick they ever pulled was to pretend they weren’t.

    12. Benjamin says:

      They keep phoning me because I had digital subscription for a while during the referendum. They don’t really like it when I tell them I won’t be paying for it again because I’m not a fan of racism

    13. Hamish100 says:

      Maybe we can organise on behalf of the people of Scotland a ” Liar of the Year Award” with sub categories
      ie
      Pretendy News Editor
      Pretendy Journalist
      Pretendy paper ( north british edition )etcetera

      Maybe we could go further and have the liars political award.

      EX PM award (no vow intended)
      Ex SoS for Scotland — oh the person has won that one already!
      Special award called “bayonet the Scots” goes to ……

      sponsors needed of course. How about IRN BRU? tea cake manufacturers, bankers?

    14. Clootie says:

      …newspapers informing the public!
      …newspapers fact checking a story! (especially a negative story about Scotland)
      …newspapers giving a balanced view on internal and World affairs!
      …newspapers printing retractions OR removing false stories!

      All have as much chance of happening as a socialist leading the Labour Party.

    15. Capella says:

      Why has the site favicon changed to a white V on a red square?

    16. The Man in the Jar says:

      I`m utterly sick of all this. Talk about second class citizens. Do they think that we are all daft?

      “Better Together” Aye right!

    17. Andrew Scott says:

      Has no-one to whom they would at least listen contacted them to ask why they’ve done this? I don’t include myself in the last of those The Times would listen to. It’s fine to complain but the perpetrator needs to be complained to. No?

    18. Bittie Glakit says:

      Thinking about how to reach the MSM hostages. What if—there was a ‘Town Crier’ competition, where any likely lad or lass, could don a three cornered hat, take a bell and a scroll and find their way to the centre of their town or village, where there would also be a wee table with leaflets and a few bods in attendance.

      The potential town crier would ring the bell and cry, ‘Hear ye, hear ye’, and a small group would run to form a nice semi circle and get their cameras out. The idea being that when the town crier had finished, the videos would be uploaded to twitter, and a special Face-book page for comparisons and judging.

      They would be judged on:
      Presentation – Appearance, apparel, stance, presence.
      Voice—Clarity of speech, engagement with audience.
      Content– Items of news not on BBC, some history—eg twenty years ago this
      happened, and an item of local news. – Not to exceed 5 mins

      The judges could give points for each category then a voting poll could be arranged every week/month where we could all vote. The voting address would be on the leaflets along with the items of news and links to interesting sites.

      If there were a contest, and prizes to be had,-£50? it would give people ‘permission’ and an incentive to do it. I’m sure folk would get onto their local drama group for a costume, and have a go.

      If newspapers can’t print the truth, perhaps a return to an older method of communication will take a trick.

      Should I get my coat?

    19. Doug Morrison says:

      I went to the Times site after reading the above and was invited to contact an advisor. It turned out it was a sales advisor. However…

      Hello, you’re chatting with The Times and The Sunday Times Live Chat Team. How can we help?

      You’re now connected to one of our online advisors.

      Wesley: Hello, you’re chatting with Wesley from The Times and The Sunday Times Live Chat Sales Team. Can I take your name please?

      You: Why are you still displaying the “Scotland to cancel funding for Queen” article, when you have already acknowledged – getting on for a week ago – that it is completely false? You even briefly published an acknowledgement of the fact it was wrong.

      You: Doug Morrison

      Wesley: Thank you Doug Morrison, my apologies, you are currently chatting with The Times Live Chat Sales Team.

      Wesley: If you would like, you can send us an email regarding this to feedback [at] thetimes [dot] co [dot] uk.

      You: Thank you, will do.

    20. Craig V says:

      The lie has been told now for nearly a week. Other rags carried this story too. A number of people in England now believe this to be true. We are already the bad guys so….. Make it true. What are they going to do about it? Tell on us! They already did that and people have moved on, even if the Times had not. Do you think the Purring Queen would stop going to Balmoral in protest? Does anyone actually care what she does? Everytime they fabricate or over egg a story to make us look bad the damage to our reputation has been done and we still try and play nice, correct them, assure them they are wrong and the press put fingers in their ears. Forget that tactic, say ok then, we did, we will, we are going to.. They can only report it again and look silly. This time we really mean it, last time we made it up , but this time honest..!

    21. allan thomson says:

      And on it goes . Silly really, the prospect that it is not deliberate. It is! Despite a lifetime of pessimism regarding independence this union is clearly now terminally ill!
      We still however must strive to build alternative media until such time it can approach their reach. Keep up the good work! The resounding silence of unionist trolls on this issue speaks volumes!

    22. desimond says:

      A Sigh of The Times.

      Tip your waitress!

    23. heedtracker says:

      London Times used to thunder. Now its just like all the rest of them, a bunch of UKOK wet farts getting ever more desperate attacking democracy in their Scotland region.

      Actually on balance, British broadsheet hackdom is even more savage at monstering Scottish democracy than teamGB tabs. Its quite an achievement but its likely that some Times hacks own a large Scotch shooting estate or three, or at least daddy does. If not, it’s no doubt the dirty digger shit stirring as per.

    24. K1 says:

      Happens a lot Capella, have never known why, just is, wouldnae worry aboot it, it always converts back at some point. I always tend to think he’s just fiddling aboot wi buttons he disnae unerstaun. 😉

    25. Robert Peffers says:

      @Capella says: 29 June, 2015 at 12:03 pm:

      “Why has the site favicon changed to a white V on a red square”

      No idea, Capella, but it isn’t new and has been that way on all three of my machines for a very long time.

    26. Robert Peffers says:

      @The Man in the Jar says: 29 June, 2015 at 12:14 pm:

      “I`m utterly sick of all this. Talk about second class citizens. Do they think that we are all daft?”

      Don’t know if they think us all daft but as long as I can remember, and that’s not Yesterday as I’ve been an SNP supporter since 1946, they have treated us as if we were daft.

    27. BigMac says:

      Noticed that many of the Scottish rags have been suffering a bit from loss of advertising revenue.
      Should we be complaining to the advertisers about the lies told by their publishers?

    28. Effijy says:

      There is no doubt in the justification in making a complaint to:

      https://www.ipso.co.uk/

      The so called press complaints body for the UK.

      There is a sound case for listing the complaint under “Harassment” as there is a daily barrage of
      misinformation printed against the good people of Scotland.

      Free speech is all very good and well, but never should a so called journalist be free to print a story without any form of investigation into the facts.
      Nor should they have the right to repeatedly print misinformation after the foundations for the story have crumbled into the dust.

      Has the Queen been informed of being used as a Pawn in this Rag’s sordid game?

      This uk media mafia make Pravda look like the Reader’s Digest.

    29. Rob Outram says:

      Complaint sent, will let you know what response I get if any, assuming it’s even worth reporting.

    30. Another Union Dividend says:

      Mark Macaskill in yesterday’s Sunday Times still claiming Neil Hay described unionists as “quxxlings”.

      So another IPSO complaint should be in order.

    31. Stoker says:

      The Rev wrote:
      “The Times has now led its Scotland News section with a story that it knows to be complete and utter rubbish for six straight days.”

      So what are the SNP’ PR department doing about this?

      They have a responsibility to take action against these blatant lying bastards and protect the Scottish electorate from these embarrassing smears on our country.

      It shouldn’t be constantly left to the general public to make complaints to a compliant UKOK media regulatory body.

      They should be fined very heavily for these blatant lying smears or shut down. The individuals writing the lies should also find themselves in the dock being sued.

      Hammering these liars is long overdue!

    32. Big Jock says:

      It’s not lazy journalism. It’s lies. They lie because they can.

    33. G H Graham says:

      That’s how propaganda works. The more bizarre, surreal & fantastic, the better. Especially when comically untrue rubbish is printed by titles, once believed to be above scrutiny.

      The Times stands alongside the BBC as two key mouthpieces of the British Establishment, working to maintain the status quo; an irony free zone of suspicion, jingoism, indoctrinated nationalism & sneering condescension, especially towards “foreigners”.

      The French then, are illogically accused of being lazy despite enjoying productivity levels 30% higher than the British. China & Russia are accused of being corrupt & undemocratic yet the House of Lords bursts at its velvet seams with over 800 unelected Peers, some of whom are convicted criminals.

      In 2009, Jack Straw, then Home Secretary proposed that Peers would be kicked out for criminal behaviour if they had spent MORE THAN one year in prison.

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/5857910/Peers-guilty-of-serious-criminal-offences-to-be-expelled-from-House-of-Lords.html

      Amazingly, the House of Lords claims not to keep a record of who has transgressed ….

      https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/convicted_criminals_in_the_house

      And Scotland? Well, We’re considered a threat to the stability of Great Britain. You know, the state that likes to brag about fair play & honesty.

      Some have even tried to prove this national characteristic with science …

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3335100/British-sense-of-fair-play-proven-by-science.html

      But nowhere in the scientific paper did the researchers recognise the chronic, nasty invective published by titles such as the Daily Mail, from which they would surely have adjusted their conclusions …

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/10/nick-clegg-its-daily-mail-really-hates-britain

      There is no better example of a title projecting on behalf of the country it pretends to defend, self harm & hate because deep down, it actually finds itself deeply repulsive.

    34. Stoker says:

      BigMac wrote:
      “Noticed that many of the Scottish rags have been suffering a bit from loss of advertising revenue. Should we be complaining to the advertisers about the lies told by their publishers?”

      Yes, a concerted effort by those who know how to write well, with the back-up from the rest of us, informing them of our intentions to boycott their products, should they continue to fund these liars, would be far more effective than contacting IPSO.

    35. Haggis Hunter says:

      The media in Scotland is run by the British establishment, they must be so out of touch if they think that Scots really want to pay the Queen.
      From what I can see, it would be an extremely popular policy if we didn’t.

    36. Capella says:

      @ K1. Robert Peffers
      OK Thanks. Wondered if it is a security checking bot or V for Vendetta!

    37. shiregirl says:

      Count me in. IPSO complaint on it’s way. Fed up with this guff in the msm everyday. This isn’t laziness, it’s game playing and part of an agenda.

      Well done Rev, hope you are enjoying the sunshine – don’t know how you have the time to fit it all in.

      In a complaining mood today – (o/t, but scunnered as I have just tried to buy an item from a firm in England who offers free and fast Uk delivery to most of UK but will not even deliver for extra money to Aberdeenshire).

      🙁

    38. Capella says:

      @ G H Graham
      Agree about the propaganda effort and the MSM. It extends to online ops as well says Glenn Greenwald:

      https://archive.is/VTeN2

      It is essential that as many people as possible understand this, which is why this site is so valuable.

    39. Doug McG says:

      Nobody mentions the Murdoch word here . Since he showed up in the UK all those years ago he has been using the power of the media to support politicians who will in turn support him and his megalomania.

      His dark prince Mr Coulson was released from prosecution with no case to answer , whilst sitting amongst a pile of lies , what was the payback for that? I wonder.

      The banking elite and increasingly senior media figures are untouchable in this country and make our politicians look powerless. Last year Alex Salmond looked to have brokered a deal with Murdoch but it never really came through , no surprise , he has picked up the remains of the Daily Record at no cost, just by appearing neutral , he is not , he is 100% backing himself . We can’t trust him or his papers or his TV channels.

    40. G H Graham says:

      Long before he threw most of his principles into the Tory waste paper basket, Nick Clegg demonstrated an uncomfortable but accurate insight into the British psyche when he concluded a fascinating article published in “The Guardian” in 2002 with this ..

      “All nations have a cross to bear, and none more so than Germany with its memories of Nazism. But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off … We need to be put back in our place.”

      Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/19/eu.germany

      Perhaps “The Times” needs a dose of ‘Clegg’s Remedy’?

    41. boris says:

      Can anyone confirm the rumour that the BBC Trust is to be disbanded and the BBC chain of command responsibility is to be transferred to Ofcom?

    42. Big Fraud says:

      @BigMac @Stoker

      100% agree. That could actually produce results if co-ordinated properly.

      As busy as this website’s estimable custodian no doubt is, a Wings post detailing the companies who contribute most to the advertising coffers of the Times, Telegraph and Mail in Scotland could be an invaluable document.

    43. Les Wilson says:

      Well if you keep repeating a lie as true, often enough, many then believe it.
      That has to be their game right?, but for reasons more sinister.

    44. Bill Fraser says:

      Shocking !!When will a full and true apology be printed?

    45. Lesley-Anne says:

      Is anyone running a book on how much longer this NON story will remain at number one in the Times’s hit parade of NON stories before it is removed? 😉

      I’m only asking as I think it may still be the number one NON story for quite some time to come yet. 😀

    46. Stoker says:

      @ Big Fraud (1.43pm).

      Good call, i agree, mind you, it could also be a complete waste of time unless people stop helping their cause by posting direct links to their websites.(yes, including you Graham 🙂 ).

      And those who can get their hands on any of the Unionist rags, without buying them, can also help by compiling lists of the main big advertisers within them and submit them for inclusion on said list.

      Access to these rags can usually be gained via public libraries.
      I’m sure there are other ways to access them without paying.

    47. Iain More says:

      Nothing lazy about it, it is pure Brit Nat propaganda and lies. However I am not alone in wishing that it was actually true. I wish the SNP would get on and slash the parasites funding.

    48. Lesley-Anne says:

      boris says:

      Can anyone confirm the rumour that the BBC Trust is to be disbanded and the BBC chain of command responsibility is to be transferred to Ofcom?

      I seem to remember that this was a story being discussed by the paper reveiwers on SKY papers the other night Boris. Perhaps if it does come to fruition then WE may actually get somewhere with the mountain of complaints that are fired off about the BBC each year. 😛

    49. Bob Mack says:

      The next thing is they will have page 3 girls.Probably start with Annabelle Goldie.
      Fully clothed of course.I am sure that will cause some trembling knees in the Establishment.
      Weird people out there!!

    50. Stoker says:

      @ LA.
      “Can anyone confirm the rumour that the BBC Trust is to be disbanded and the BBC chain of command responsibility is to be transferred to Ofcom? Perhaps if it does come to fruition then WE may actually get somewhere with the mountain of complaints that are fired off about the BBC each year.”

      I wouldn’t be too sure of that. If there is any truth in the move you can bet your last it is being done to trick everyone into thinking they are actually doing something about the BBC. When, in reality, all they are doing is avoiding giving Scotland any real control over the establishments propaganda mouthpiece.

    51. Petra says:

      @ Effijy says at 12:46 pm ”There is no doubt in the justification in making a complaint to: https://www.ipso.co.uk/

      The so called press complaints body for the UK. There is a sound case for listing the complaint under “Harassment” as there is a daily barrage of
      misinformation printed against the good people of Scotland.”

      I totally agree Effijy. We should start reporting these newspapers to IPSO.

      This is not unlike the Carmichael affair with some ‘anonymous’ person leaking false data to their pals in the Press. It really p*sses me off reading one article after another quoting ‘a source close to the Government / Queen told me’ as a means to report their biased lies and smears.

      Like those in O&S maybe we should also think of fundraising to get to the bottom of this: obtain the name of the ‘leaker’? Who did they say it was again? The Queens Aide? That would take the ‘purr’ out of their sails.

    52. Dr Jim says:

      If you keep screaming the same thing over and over into someone’s face long enough they’ll eventually give in and become

      An American Soldier

      What happens when you tell “Them” they’re wrong

      The hope is that Mr and Mrs English Person and Unionist Persons will hate us all the more
      They won’t be able to help themselves

      Don’t read it or you’ll end up finding a Pod under the stairs with your name on it ( In black and White )

    53. jackie g says:

      Came across this headline regarding the massacre in Tunisia:

      Blitz Spirit As Brit Tourists Keep Calm And Carry On!

      That’s the spirit old boy stiff upper lip what 😕

      The sad part is they will never learn.

      🙁

    54. Karmanaut says:

      The story is a lie and they’ve run it for a week in full knowledge that it’s a lie.

      Just propaganda.

      But propaganda is self defeating. As soon as you come to realise that a paper prints lies for political ends, then you realise that paper is untrustworthy.

      And why get news from an untrustworthy source? What’s the point? How do you know what’s true and what’s propaganda?

      The Times standards really have fallen. Just recently they ran a story quoting BBC Scotlandshire, without even realising it was satire. Cringeworthy ineptitude.

      You have to wonder what’s happened to their staff.

      Best to stay well clear of publications like the Times, unless you want to stay uninformed. Leave it to the city goofballs who don’t have a clue what’s going on outside London. They seem to be the ones writing it.

    55. Bob Mack says:

      @jackie g,
      Yes,and I have heard sabre rattling already about going in to sort out ISIS.We never learn from our mistakes

    56. Petra says:

      @ jackie g says at 2:27 pm ”Came across this headline regarding the massacre in Tunisia: Blitz Spirit As Brit Tourists Keep Calm And Carry On! That’s the spirit old boy stiff upper lip what 😕 The sad part is they will never learn.:-(”

      I wonder if they’ve carried on looking for the four Scots (members of their so-called ‘In it together Union’) that are still missing?

      And of course as I absolutely despise what’s happened one wonders how the Iraqis and Libyans feel when they read such ‘Bliz Spirit’ articles when hundreds of thousands of their people were blown to Kingdom Come in the name of ‘oil’.

    57. jackie g says:

      Petra says@2.44

      And of course as I absolutely despise what’s happened one wonders how the Iraqis and Libyans feel when they read such ‘Bliz Spirit’ articles when hundreds of thousands of their people were blown to Kingdom Come in the name of ‘oil’.

      Indeed Petra,

      The British establishment at this time are in full flow and loving every minute.

      Teresa May laying flowers on the beach in Tunisia.

      DC using soundbites such as ‘ISIS is the struggle of our generation’ i could go on but i wont.

    58. Jim Thomson says:

      If the Times group of newspapers is still in the Murdoch stable, here’s US contact details I found (includes clue as to e-mail address format)

      The address for Mr. Murdoch is:

      Rupert Murdoch
      Chairman and Chief Executive
      News Corporation
      1211 Avenue of Americas
      8th Floor
      NY, NY 10036

      The main telephone number for News Corp is 212-852-7000, and they
      should be able to put you through to Mr. Murdoch’s office.

      There is no published email address for Mr. Murdoch. However, you can
      see that the general format for emails at News Corp is first
      initial-last name @newscorp.com.

      For instance, the email listing for Teri Everett, Vice President is
      given as E-Mail: teverett [at] newscorp [dot] com.

      So, one can take an educated guess, at least, that Rupert Murdoch’s
      email address is rmurdoch [at] newscorp [dot] com

      I also found a reference in a private database for this email address:

      murdochk [dot] r [at] newscorporation [dot] com

      but I was not able to confirm that it is a viable address.

      I had a quick look for a Twitter account but I decided there’s probably not much point in going down that route.

    59. Alex Waugh says:

      To the tune ‘Tannenbaum aka The Red Flag’

      The People’s rags are black and white,
      and bar a few they’re full of shite.
      The Labour Party’s dead and cold,
      it sold its soul for London gold.

      And while the poorest starve and die,
      the media hoores will smear and lie.
      Though ("Tractor" - Ed)s send us Project Fear,
      we’ll keep the saltire flying here.

      I’d be so happy to hear this, or a variation, being sung by a crowd of pissed-off, ex Labour-voting Scots!

    60. Jim Thomson says:

      A wee health warning about that last post of mine – the date on it is 2006 (sorry – possibly)

    61. Gary says:

      A direct Buck House brief against Scotland on an already discredited story and an enormous splash of fear and mischief making in ‘The Times’

      Any shred of credibility or impartiality of The Crown has finally been destroyed. Both our government and Crown using every dirty trick to work against us, the people.

      They lack legitimacy, they’re using illegal methods for controlling dissidents and having propaganda promulgated via supposedly independent news outlets.

    62. Clootie says:

      Thank you for your email. The Times takes complaints about editorial content seriously. To read our complaints policy, click here. We are committed to abiding by the Independent Press Standards Organisation (“IPSO”) rules and regulations and the Editors’ Code of Practice that IPSO enforces.


      Rose Wild
      Feedback editor
      The Times
      thetimes.co.uk/feedback
      @TimesFeedback

    63. heedtracker says:

      https://twitter.com/DrScottThinks

      Red tory Slabour boys keep their UKOK hate cybernats campaign rolling along horribly online.

      Dr Scott re-tweets all their newspaper’s cybernat hunting attack headlines, SLab’s dossier is going to get them/you/us. He retweet’s Horatio Nelson of the Torygraph’s usual bettertogether red and blue tory world is only way for their Scotland region… etc

      Usual egging on by like of silly old Dunc Hothersall but Dr Scott says in his daily letter to the Hootsman, he’s outrageously attacked by cybernats and that’s all on Sturgeon ofcourse. So no Britnat oil on troubled unionist waters there then.

      They’re an odd bunch though, Dr S tells Hootsman letters readers he once asked Sturgeon something in a BBC Question Time debate. But even that’s not really honest. He’s on almost as many QT debates as tory boy Dimbelby and he’s always shouting “disgrace” very loudly at anyone SNP about anything they say.

      Whether or not you think Sturgeon is a “disgrace,” its jolly rude shouting “disgrace” at her. If you do that on BBC tv, what does the doc expect? Is furiously shouting “disgrace” at anyone, even Scotland’s First Minister, abuse?

      Silly question.

      If you want to know how SLab activists use hard core right wing press to attack Scottish democracy and SNP Scots.gov, Dr Scott Thinks.com is the place to be.

      More to power to them.

    64. Desimond says:

      Perhaps the Times subscribers like to read such stuff hence give the public what they want not what they need.

    65. Petra says:

      @ Gary says at 3:21 pm ”A direct Buck House brief against Scotland on an already discredited story and an enormous splash of fear and mischief making in ‘The Times’. Any shred of credibility or impartiality of The Crown has finally been destroyed. Both our government and Crown using every dirty trick to work against us, the people. They lack legitimacy, they’re using illegal methods for controlling dissidents and having propaganda promulgated via supposedly independent news outlets.”

      Spot on Gary. I thought the Queen was keen to hold the Union together? Seems not. Looks as though she’s still totally (Diana) out of touch with the people.

      Where’s Sir Alan Reid now? Why hasn’t he contacted the Media and told them to cut it out? Told the Times to remove the article? Maybe it’s time that we contacted him and / or the Queen.

    66. G4jeepers says:

      EXTRA!
      EXTRA!
      EXTRA!
      EXTRA!
      EXTRA!
      Read all and doubt it!

      FOI to find out who’s paying for this extended front page advert?

    67. Al-Stuart says:

      Notwithstanding a meagre 3% ‘bump’ over the recent desperate decline, here is the best indicator as to the quality, or lack thereof attaining to this once (supposedly) well regarded organ…

      The Times circulation per day…

      2010 – 508,250

      2015 – 396,621

      DECLINE IN THE TIMES NEWSPAPERS SOLD PER DAY 111,629 = MINUS 21.9%

      At this steep rate of decline, does anyone care to guess if, or when The Times will go out of business?

      People really have stopped listening to the drivel, dribble, lazy lies and contempt being spewed forth by these old historic/hysterical hacks. FACT.

      Source: Audited Bureau of Circulation

    68. H Scott says:

      If/when the Rev commissions the next opinion poll, perhaps we could have a question on support for a republic.

    69. nodrog says:

      I suggest a change of name is in order – The Past Times.

    70. jcd says:

      Sorry o/t (kind of) but just wanted to chuck in my tuppence worth here, I think that the suggestion that the main, regular advertisers in DR, “Scottish” DM etc should be contacted by “readers” (in an organized, timed and coordinated way) telling them that they will no longer consider buying their products/services due to the anti-Scottish stance taken by said papers they are supporting with advertising. This would hit them where it hurts, by which I mean ultimately the papers, of course.

      I and others I know will no longer set foot in Asda, Morrison’s or buy any Tunnocks Baxters products or any other product made by an anti-Scottish business, it’s not hard to do unless for some reason you have no choice, and you don’t miss any of it.

      I remember a couple of posts from a while back suggesting something similar but nothing seems to have come of it.

    71. Dr Jim says:

      @Heedtracker

      I know what I think of Dr Scott
      He’s entitled to his opinion though ( Such as it is )

      Thankfully not shared by the many or we would all know about it wouldn’t we

      Real academics tend not to speak up so much for all the obvious reasons which is a shame

      But little nobody’s like this guy know that

      It’s probably to do with having a ( “Small” Following ) Hmm

    72. caz-m says:

      Re: Clypegate,

      With all this spying going on to make up “lists”, it seems Scottish Labour have come up with a whole new meaning for the term,

      “Grass” roots politics.

    73. Leslie English says:

      This sort of drivel is the reason why I cancelled my subscription. I now no longer take a paper in England they are all tarred with the same brush.

    74. heedtracker says:

      Dr Jim says:
      29 June, 2015 at 4:28 pm
      @Heedtracker

      I know what I think of Dr Scott
      He’s entitled to his opinion though ( Such as it is )

      He gets around. He was in the papers getting his photo taken with Milliband in Embro just before May 7. Hard core red tory unionism with all the trimmings, 110% clypegate fan, usual 130k less students in Scots further/higher education con, we know the rest.

      Strangest thing about these activists, with their vote SLab or else, Scotland is our heartland zealotry, creeping around threatening YES and NO pensioners they’d lose they’re pension, you’ll be bayoneted by Ian Davidson, you’re all in our cybernat dossier etc…its ruined them in Scotland, probably for a very long time.

    75. Roll_On_2015 says:

      OT – Trouble at mill

      Trinity Mirror looks for further job cuts

      Dozens more jobs are at risk at Trinity Mirror after the newspaper publisher doubled cost-reduction plans made just four months ago from £10m to £20m.

      The fresh cuts came as Trinity said that its revenues continue to fall and are likely to be down 11 per cent in the half-year that ends on Sunday. The biggest decline is in print advertising revenues, down by 19 per cent. Digital revenues are up by 26 per cent. The sharpest decline in newspaper advertising has come in May and this month, with revenues said to have fallen by as much as 30 per cent.

      Trinity Mirror are the owners of The Daily Record and Sunday Mail.

    76. A MacRitchie says:

      Glad to see Angus Robertson come out indicating Indyref2 in the next 5 yrs. I hope he means it as using the threat of indyref2 to influence Scotland Bill hasn’t worked one iota so far.

      So have the great and the good eventually come to their senses and realised that the Scotland Bill has yielded zip. The phoney wait and see is coming to its end game when the Scotland Bill is discussed again this week.

      A reality check now dawns and the realisation that no sensible powers will be devolved. No sensible powers were ever going to be devolved by unionists. Westminster will remain the control freak it was designed to be and always will be. This phoney peace is at the end game lets stop threatening an indyref2 and lets get on with it. Holyrood 2016 elections just cant come around quick enough.

      EU referendum is a complete waste of time only taking place to make Cameron look good ie comes away with changed powers to say he is a strong PM in Europe and a yes to stay in EU to add to his legacy when he goes. So lets give him the honour of saying he was the PM who lost the union and he was the last PM of that union onto that CV.

      I might get a shock and be surprised by a no vote in EU ref but not as much as he will that would be something to add to his legacy. He would get the blame for taking us out for buckling under the pressure of his own back benchers and holding a ref on EU in the first place.

    77. Effijy says:

      boris says:

      29 June, 2015 at 1:39 pm

      Can anyone confirm the rumour that the BBC Trust is to be disbanded and the BBC chain of command responsibility is to be transferred to Ofcom?

      Yes it is a genuine story, however I fear that Westminster will just pick one of their dear friends from the House Of Lords, who will make ridiculous judgements in backing up
      their old School Chums and the hand that feeds them?

      Absolutely pathetic to consider the BBC self regulates
      no matter what action it takes!

      They must be stopped and a full Inquiry launched.
      No one seemed to question why not a solitary radio or TV presenter out of hundreds, ever had one good word to say on Independence when we had around 50% of the polls and the referendum itself. Is that what they call reflecting
      the life and times of the peoples of Scotland/

    78. David McDowell says:

      I really like the idea suggested above of the “Wings Over Scotland Propagandist of the Year Awards”. Sort of like “The Razzies”.

      Categories:
      1. “So-called ‘Scottish’ Media”
      2. “London-based Media pretending to to be Scottish”

      Individual Awards:

      Worst newspaper, worst TV, worst radio, worst lie told, (not worst named journalsit as we all know that would just lead to WOS being branded “Nazi thugs” trying to intimidate the poor sensitive wee media lambs).

      If nothing else it will give us a good laugh and vent some of the frustration of having to put up with constant lies that are never exposed or challenged.

    79. ronnie anderson says:

      @ caz-m We must hiv slipped up somwhere over the past few years,why could,nt some inteligent person in the Yes campain thought that Grassroots thingy up.

    80. Hoss Mackintosh says:

      @Petra,

      Yes it is a bit strange that the palace establishment have not asked the Times to remove their website story?

      Perhaps they knew more about why it was released in the first place?

      Either way it does no harm for the Republic of Scotland.

      And as a consolation to the Royals, there will still be a Kingdom of South Britain and Northern Ireland to rule over.

    81. Lanarkist says:

      The Establishment are absorbing the idea of Scottish Independence and throwing out distractions to get them to the Summer recess. This will give them enough time to refocus and finesse their Elite plan.

      Globally things are speeding up, migration, societal collapse, financial collapse, drought, famine, all the things a system in chaos throws up.

      They are in the process of redefining us from trusted servant to strange neighbours in order to prepare the masses for some form of acceptance of a new order to things. They could even decide to make it civilised but it doesn’t look like it!

    82. G4jeepers says:

      O/T

      Ian Murray on RS earlier stating that an independent audit of FFA/R should be undertaken because the SNP (or austerity crusaders as Osborne just called them in the HoC) don’t believe any of the drivvel being spouted on the matter.

      Aye that’ll be what PWC were doing providing free services to the offices of one Shady SoS – independent and impartial my hwiry ginger arse.

    83. ronnie anderson says:

      Noo who wiz it that said ah wiz ah auld fart.Age is only ah number.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mL5nVQZSDw

    84. pmcrek says:

      Expecting a Times exclusive on the Zinoviev letter any day now..

    85. icyspark says:

      Scotland Bill second reading now live:

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/live/bbcparliament

    86. Vronsky says:

      The other, perhaps paradoxical, result of this sort of ‘journalism’ is that the SNP governs without any sort of objective scrutiny. Every attack we see in the press or the BBC we now routinely dismiss as misinformed or malicious right-wing havers. It would be good to see some disinterested analysis of issues like the CalMac dispute or the Curriculum for Excellence, but it’s not to be had.

      Mind you, I suppose the same applies whoever is in power – witless mud-slinging at the SNP, equally witless hurrahing for Labour.

    87. Dr Ew says:

      The newspaper of record…

    88. Dr Ew says:

      …levels of utter bullshit is, of course, really little more than a more syntactically snooty mouthpiece for Murdoch.

      Since, however, Labour is forever claiming Murdoch is such a pal of Salmond’s you’d have thought one word from Eck would have had this gone, skooshed, oot the gemme.

      Perhaps Murdoch is not a friend to the SNP after all.

    89. heedtracker says:

      @Vronsky, “contrary to media reports” is probably burned in the souls of everyone SNP.

    90. Kevin meina says:

      Ian Murray is an annoying prick he couldn’t care less so why not sit down and shut the fuck up.

    91. ronnie anderson says:

      Cmon down its the Sale of the Century.Naw no you,your ah Pleb.

      Peter Bone presented a Privitization Bill for the Sale Of BBC

    92. Chic McGregor says:

      Time to revisit the Tartan Mushroom awards idea.
      Which newspaper?
      Which TV news programmme?
      Which radio news programme?
      Which newspaper journalist?
      Which TV journalist?
      Which broadcaster?
      Which newspaper article?
      Which ‘expert’?
      etc.

      has shovelled the most shit on the Scottish elecorate in the past year.

      Of course, filmed as they receive them.

    93. Petra says:

      O/T

      Latest manipulative claptrap from the Daily Record. Covering up for their Tory pal Mundell, not confronting his lies or omission of true facts. The Daily Record continuing to CON its readers with regard to the VOW.

      ‘Stand & deliver: Daily Record quizzes Tory Scots secretary David Mundell on the Scotland bill and what happens next (29/06/2015).’

      ‘The new Scottish Secretary in the Tory cabinet wants Daily Record readers to hold him to account for delivering The Vow.

      When I (Mundell) told Parliament I wanted Daily Record readers to hold me to account for delivering The Vow published in this paper before the independence referendum, I meant it. Today sees the start of one of the most important stages in making that happen and delivering to Scotland the powerhouse Parliament we deserve. Over the next 48 hours, MPs will be debating our plans to give a huge range of tax and welfare powers to Holyrood through the Scotland Bill. How these powers are used will have a direct effect on how much money a future Scottish government take from our pay packets and the level of benefits paid in Scotland. The Daily Record and its readers spoke for Scotland with The Vow. A strong Scottish Parliament within a strong United Kingdom. My party, along with all of Scotland’s other main political parties, promised to deliver on that after the last general election. Now most of the big ticket items are agreed – even the SNP accept the Scotland Bill will give the Scottish Parliament big new powers over tax and welfare. And there are serious changes too in areas like energy, transport and elections which often barely get a mention. At this crucial moment in making good on that promise, I want to spell out exactly what we are doing, why we are doing it – and maybe bust a few myths at the same time.”

      Is the Scottish Parliament being made permanent?

      Mundell: The Scottish Parliament is here to stay – and now the law will spell that out. It is inconceivable that our Holyrood Parliament could be abolished without the consent of the Scottish people. If any government ever tried, it would spell the end of the United Kingdom, plain and simple.The Scotland Bill puts that into law in black and white for all to see, as the Smith Commission said it should …..

      What about the talk of “vetoes”?

      Mundell: There are no vetoes – it’s as simple as that. In some areas, Scotland’s two governments will have to agree the timing of when a change is made, because these are huge transfers of power and money and we need to make sure we do it right ….

      Should we go further in devolving tax and welfare powers?

      Mundell: First, let’s remember what IS being devolved: tax powers worth £15billion – including control over how much income tax comes out of your pocket – and a welfare package of £2.5billion. Taken with everything else in the Bill, they will make Holyrood one of the most powerful devolved parliaments anywhere in the world …. It delivers in full the recommendations of the Smith Commission set up to deliver The Vow.

      Those recommendations were signed off by all five of Scotland’s main political parties, including the SNP …

      So there’s no chance of changing the Bill?

      Mundell: I didn’t say that. I have always made clear – and again I mean it – that we will listen to sensible suggestions which will be to the benefit of Scotland within the United Kingdom. Indeed the whole point of having the Bill examined line by line in Parliament is so people can suggest changes. But those changes must reflect the will of the people as seen in the referendum result, must improve the Bill – and must make sense for Scotland …

      What about full fiscal autonomy (FFA) then? Is that on the cards?

      Mundell: No – because that is about as far away from sensible as it is possible to get. Let’s put it into context: Accepting the SNP plan would leave us with £10billion less to spend by the end of this Parliament. And, according to the SNP’s own figures on oil tax income which were slipped out last week, it could be even worse ….

      The SNP might think that’s a price worth paying to get closer to their dream of independence, but I don’t think it is – and I don’t think Record readers do either …

      What happens next?

      Mundell: I want to get this Bill turned into law by early 2016 – in time for the Holyrood elections. That is important because we need to know how the next Scottish government are going to spend our money. For the first time, Scotland’s political parties will have to look voters in the eye and say whether or not they plan to take more out of our pay packets through taxes.

      That is the logic of what the SNP say they want to do – yet they seem awfully shy about being upfront with voters about it. That is where the focus of attention should now rest – it’s the next great debate in Scottish politics. This Scotland Bill really will give those who want the honour of serving in our Scottish Parliament real power. It’s time for them to start telling us how they will use it.

    94. Chic McGregor says:

      PS also need an online media awards ceremony.

    95. Juteman says:

      OT.
      Just completed a Panelbase poll. Wings was one of the choices about where I got my political news fix.
      You are mainstream now, Rev. 🙂

    96. call me dave says:

      I don’t see or hear anything that proffers well for the full devolution of income tax for Scotland in the WM debate.

      WILWIE’s: Work in London live in Edinburgh

      Never heard that before, must get out more! 🙁

    97. call me dave says:

      WILLIE sorry.

    98. msean says:

      House of Commons. How can the Scottish Government be sure of its tax yield when another house has control of the bands?
      Answer: (basically)You voted no.

    99. Paula Rose says:

      If Georgie Osbourne describes the SNP as “anti-austerity crusaders”, he won’t mind being called an “austerity jihadist” will he?

    100. chris kilby says:

      Our paper of record…

    101. chris kilby says:

      # Come gather ’round people
      Wherever you roam
      And admit that the waters
      Around you have grown
      And accept it that soon
      You’ll be drenched to the bone
      If your time to you
      Is worth savin’
      Then you better start swimmin’
      Or you’ll sink like a stone
      For The Times they are a-changin’.

      Come writers and critics
      Who prophesise with your pen
      And keep your eyes wide
      The chance won’t come again
      And don’t speak too soon
      For the wheel’s still in spin
      And there’s no tellin’ who
      That it’s namin’
      For the loser now
      Will be later to win
      For The Times they are a-changin’.

      Come senators, congressmen
      Please heed the call
      Don’t stand in the doorway
      Don’t block up the hall
      For he that gets hurt
      Will be he who has stalled
      There’s a battle outside
      And it is ragin’
      It’ll soon shake your windows
      And rattle your walls
      For The Times they are a-changin’.

      Come mothers and fathers
      Throughout the land
      And don’t criticise
      What you can’t understand
      Your sons and your daughters
      Are beyond your command
      Your old road is
      Rapidly agin’
      Please get out of the new one
      If you can’t lend your hand
      For The Times they are a-changin’.

      The line it is drawn
      The curse it is cast
      The slow one now
      Will later be fast
      As the present now
      Will later be past
      The order is
      Rapidly fadin’
      And the first one now
      Will later be last
      For The Times they are a-changin’. #

      They are a-changin’ for the lot of ’em…

    102. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rob Outram says: 29 June, 2015 at 12:51 pm:

      “Complaint sent, will let you know what response I get if any, assuming it’s even worth reporting.”

      There might be a case for contacting the World’s better media outlets and telling them we Scots are being lied to by the UK media. Throw in a bit of accusations along the lines of it being worse than that of the Third Reich.

      For example Time Life had an article : –

      http://time.com/3490218/a-brutal-pageantry-the-third-reichs-myth-making-machinery-in-color/

      So may take the chance of doing a follow-up. Perhaps not but the website is worth a visit.

    103. Ken500 says:

      HoC Ian Murray was texting. Someone behind him is typing.

    104. HandandShrimp says:

      After Gregg Moodie’s cartoons I am having difficulty separating in mind the Mundell/Murray double act.

      Unionists are all one – nothing but a bunch of tractors*

      *By which I really mean tractors….slow and a total pain in the arse if they are in your way on the road to somewhere.

    105. Dal Riata says:

      Mundell says:

      The SNP might think that’s [plans for FFA; the £10b black hole lie] a price worth paying to get closer to their dream of independence, but I don’t think it is – and I don’t think Record readers do either …

      Fluffy the Toady, Scotland’s one and only Conservative MP, acting as His Master’s Voice, tells the Scots – with their 56 out of 59 SNP MPs, what’s best for them… and those ever-dwindling numbers of Daily Record readers.

      Do one Fluffy the Toady. And take your Daily Record and their made-up “Vow” with you.

    106. Paula Rose says:

      @ Ken500 – is that typing or clyping?

    107. K1 says:

      snigger…

    108. ClanDonald says:

      @Petra: “Mundell: First, let’s remember what IS being devolved: tax powers worth £15billion – including control over how much income tax comes out of your pocket – and a welfare package of £2.5billion.”

      So Scotland gets responsibility for £bs of the welfare bill but only has access to increases in income tax to cover it?

      Meanwhile London keeps all our oil, whisky, corporation tax and VAT revenues.

      And the tories in Scotland actually voted for this? What suckers. The London Tories wouldn’t piss on the Scots tory voters if they were on fire.

    109. Rock says:

      Pravda GB has been repeating the same lies ever since the SNP won the 2007 Scottish election.

    110. Dan Huil says:

      Mundell and Murray still working together for the benefit of the British establishment.

    111. Luigi says:

      It’s about time the Scottish government went Greek:

      “Enough of this nonsense, we will hold a snap, consultative referendum on whether we should accept our watered down nothing, or hold out for FFA. Let’s see what the Scottish people decide!”

    112. Dr Jim says:

      Every now and then I stop in wonder at Why? folk voted NO, I still find it difficult to comprehend that knowing what Scotland should know about Westminster Governments that they could still do the silliest thing a Nation could ever do to itself

      To turn down the chance, not to deprive your children of something , as the Unionists argued , but to give them the opportunity to create something more than We ever had

      Why wouldn’t anybody not want to stand outside their front door and know, This is my country,
      You have to wonder what went through people’s heads to make them choose “Not” to have a country

      I wish that every NO voter, NO it should be made compulsory that every NO voter be made to watch Mundell’s performances against Scotland along with his Labour best mate Murray over and over till they say bloody sorry for what they’ve done to their own country

      Win them over I hear you say
      Anybody who can be as stupid as those who voted No and haven’t already rushed to apologise can’t be saved

      Trouble is neither can we (Or can we)

      Indy 2 anyone?

    113. A MacRitchie says:

      Petra @ 7:28

      Doesn’t surprise me of what has been printed there. Unionist will always twist facts ,deny the truth and perpetuate lies to confuse, mislead and hide the facts. They do not want more powers to go to Scotland and never have. This is why The devo max option was not allowed on the Indy ref ballot paper. To maintain power.

      The powers being transferred are useless and are being implemented to make the Scottish Gov. look bad in the future. I.e. raising tax to offset welfare cuts.

      They are hoping this will go against SGov. So they have to keep telling the lie the Smith Comm is being delivered in full because they cant get out of the huge continuous lie they have created.

      The reason sensible powers are not being transferred is because they know the more powers Holyrood has the greater the chance of UDI which is gaining power and the road to declaring of independence.

      Hosie himself has just told bawhead Murray he is afraid and wants to give the Scotland bill as little as possible.

      Tommy Shepherd has told Blubbering Mundell he is restricting change and living in a parallel universe…….nice one.

    114. Valerie says:

      I feel like crying looking at the HoC just now. SNP turned out in high number, and literally around 9/10 other people. Carmichael sitting on his own.

      What is the point of discussing Air Passenger Duty to the nth degree, when we know nothing is going to change? Are SNP really trying to persuade a few members of their agenda?

      Fancy dress guy has mutton chops tonight, very elderly and tired looking.

    115. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi chris kilby.

      For you…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNN3Xvt_wbU

    116. Rock says:

      O/T

      If Greece defaults, it will be the UK, German and French banks that have been making a killing out of Greece’s problems that will suffer the most.

      This time it will be impossible for austerity practising governments to bail them out with public money.

      I can’t wait for Greece to default.

    117. Ken500 says:

      Mundell is a liar. The £10Billion Westminster takes from Scotland for Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Along with the equivalent of £Billions, secretly taken from Scotland by Thatcher and the McCrone Report kept secret.

      Scotland could tax ‘loss leading’ drink and introduce a land tax on non productive land, etc. In the UK land is exempt from tax. People buy estates in Scotland to evade tax. Scotland exports 25% fuel and energy to the rest of the UK. Scotland is the source but pays a higher cost because it is colder. For parity Scotland should pay 10% less and the rest of the UK should pay 1% more.

    118. msean says:

      It seems that the Greek Government can hold a referendum in the space of less than a fortnight.

    119. Rock says:

      Dr Jim,

      “Indy 2 anyone?”

      Yes, a “consultative” referendum with the question:

      Should the Scottish government declare UDI tomorrow?

    120. Stoker says:

      Ooops! Look out Massey Ferguson there’s a new “tractor” company in town, they’re calling themselves Murray Mundell and i hear they have employed one of the best “mechanics” in the business, a guy by the name of Carmichael. Though, rumour has it, he’s not as good at fixing things as he thinks he is.

      This new “tractor” company apparently has the full backing of Westminster and The City of London Investments.
      😉

    121. Luigi says:

      Simple consultative referendum:

      Should the Scottish government:

      A: Accept the watered down Smith proposals, as offered by WM?

      B: Reject them on the basis that the Vow has not been delivered?

      C: Reject them on the basis that the majority of people in Scotland desire FFA (the true compromise between status quo and independence)?

    122. R-type Grunt says:

      When we do decide to go for another referendum we must not have a long lead-in! If people in Scotland don’t understand the issues by now then they never will. We cannot give the enemy time to circle the wagons. Call a snap referendum in say, two or three months, at most. If not then declare UDI & we’ll sort it out in the international courts.

      We must stop allowing the terms to be dictated by our opponents.

    123. Robert Peffers says:

      Anyone else find it utterly hilarious that the Little Englanders in the commons debating the Scotland Act, (and thus a current United Kingdom issue), keep referring to the areas like Newcastle and Carlisle as, “The North East”.

      Where the hell they think Dundee, Perth, Aberdeen, Peterhead, Montrose, Forfar, Elgin – et al, are situated is anyone’s guess. What a shower of total wallies.

    124. Stoker says:

      Mundell Murray & Co – Tractor Specialists for The City of London.

    125. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      The Scottish people have no need to declare “UDI”, as Robert Peffers and others have explained over the past few months.

      As I understand it, because the Scots Parliament was never dissolved and is back in situ, and the people of Scotland are Sovereign, all that is needed is a majority of MSP’s elected on a mandate of ‘dissolution of the Act Of Union, 1707’, or on a mandate of holding IndyRef2.

      Perchance, someone can tell me if I’ve picked it up wrong.

    126. caz-m says:

      Brian Doonthetoon

      Brian, caught up with a previous post of yours regarding a rally at PQ. Thanks for letting me know that there is a “Hope Over Fear” rally on the same day, 19th September George Sq.

      I’m up for that one alright. I was just wanting some kind of meet this year.

      There is a link/petition to try and get the Proclaimers to make an appearance.

      https://www.change.org/p/the-proclaimers-charlie-and-we-the-undersigned-ask-that-the-proclaimers-charlie-and-craig-help-raise-our-voice-at-our-hope-over-fear-event-at-george-square-on-september-19th-2015?recruiter=11686206

    127. Grouse Beater says:

      MSean: It seems that the Greek Government can hold a referendum in the space of less than a fortnight.

      Yes, when democracy calls it takes a left-wing government to show how it works.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/greece-cheated-and-bullied/

    128. Macart says:

      @Valerie

      No, they’re trying to show that they care just as we do. Also just as we do, they know that nothing was ever going to be devolved by that parliament easily if at all. But their job was to go down there anyway and fight our corner, make the arguments and hold that system to account. That was their promise to the Scottish electorate.

      Their job is to affect what they can and what they can’t highlight for all of the Scottish electorate to see. Most importantly be seen to be doing the job we sent them there to do. Even if all they can do is participate as fully as possible, carry our wishes forward and make as much noise as they can whilst doing so, they will have fulfilled their promise to the Scottish electorate. More importantly will be Westminsters response to this participation.

      They need to be aware that there will eventually be another referendum and that we are watching very closely how they treat our representatives, how they regard our wishes carried forward by those representatives and of course we’re following closely their complete refusal to enact pledges made to the Scottish electorate in return for their referendum vote.

    129. caz-m says:

      Ronnie Anderson

      Got my orders today Ronnie, I have to go offshore tomorrow. I will miss the Holyrood rally.

      Will definitely make the 19th Sept rally. Will see you before that. Wouldn’t mind a visit to Maryhill Foodbank with you.

    130. O/T

      Making steady progress with the billboards campaign idea. We could do with a couple more people to help co-ordinate the thing initially.

      Any of you lovely wingers willing to help out? Please get in touch over at the forum. http://counterpropforum.com/

    131. Cadogan Enright says:

      @No no no…Yes 11.22

      Yes please – I am sure the retraction will be just as generous

      SERIOUSLY – formal complaints do have an impact – especially where a reply to the regulator has to be written – I used to work in the media industry – and people try to avoid really annoying unnecessary work – and it drives them (even if unwillingly) to improve their work

    132. Dal Riata says:

      @Ken500 says:

      “In the UK land is exempt from tax. People buy estates in Scotland to evade tax.”

      Correct. But not only estates, Scottish forests, too, are another tax dodge:

      The Guardian, October, 2010:

      “Back then [the 1980s], Schedule D tax relief was available to people planting up a forest. A rush of wealthy investors quickly piled into forestry in an attempt to gain the tax break with the rather unlikely result that the likes of Steve Davis, Richard Attenborough, Terry Wogan and members of Genesis all became owners of large forests in Scotland. (Earlier this year, Attenborough sold his 1,700-acre forest estate on the isle of Bute to a collective of islanders for £1.4m.)”

      I remember when Steve Davis came to the area were I’m from to enact his tax dodge – sorry – ‘break’. He and his sidekick, Barry Hearn, (this was when Davis was at the hight of his snooker powers and Hearn was his manager) were escorted around in a helicopter to view their multiple-acre sized up-coming possession. I know from whom it was bought and how it was bought. It was an open secret by all involved that the whole enterprise was a tax scam.

    133. Last attempt to post this vanished into the ether, apologise if duplicate.

      O/T

      Making steady progress with the billboards campaign idea. We could do with a couple extra people to help co-ordinate the thing initially.

      Any of you lovely wingers willing to help out? Please get in touch over at the forum (email address is on homepage).

    134. A MacRitchie says:

      UDI

      Is a bit of a grey area I believe in recent times only three SNP politicians have brought this up in recent times and it is very foggy as to the rules of how this would work? If this was a simple solution to all our problems why have more people not suggested going down this route?

      It is foggy because we could because of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights…….peoples right to change nationality if they desire to.

      However UDI requires power and we don’t have it at the moment that’s why powers are being refused by UK.

      If the UK get to scrap and replace UDOHR I doubt they will include anybody the right to break away.

      The people declare UDI when politicians fail them.

      So there’s another reason why we could.

      So there might not be a legal reason as to why we cant?

      However there is the problem with the UN as to who would recognise Scotland as an independent country without going down the referendum route. As with the case of Kosovo when only 108 countries of the 193 voted to recognise it as an independent country and it took years of discussion before the UN came up with the decision so this may be why UDI is not a favourable option.

      Couldn’t find an explanation of Big Eck’s reasoning behind his alternative to referendum but maybe someone can expand on why he sad it?

    135. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “The Scottish people have no need to declare “UDI”, as Robert Peffers and others have explained over the past few months.”

      As I understand it, because the Scots Parliament was never dissolved and is back in situ——-”

      Robert Peffers is a pedantic bore and you will be too if you join in with his pedantry.

      Not even the SNP is paying any attention to the historic legal basis of the treaty of union.

      The current political thinking and practice within the SNP, the only party that can lead us to independence, is that only a democratic Yes vote in a referendum can lead us to independence.

      Whether we will ever get a democratic Yes vote in a referendum is another matter.

      The unionists rigged the last referendum and would do the same again.

      And they have on their side the 70% elderly British nationalists and 90% selfish middle classes who voted No and will always do so as long as they live.

      To have any chance, the next referendum must be according to our rules and the rotten to the core Electoral Commission must have nothing to do with it.

      And Pravda GB must be banned from reporting anything about the referendum.

    136. msean says:

      Where did all those MPs come from 🙂 , must be some sort of super pub nearby. I think if they haven’t attended the debate,they shouldn’t be allowed to vote as they may not be properly informed.

    137. Sinky says:

      In HoC Stewart Hosie really nailed Ian Murray firstly over procedures then later exposing Murray’s ignorance of the Scottish Parliament’s Fiscal Commission and pointed out Murray’s unholy alliance with UKIP over his daft amendment which would have allowed members of House of Lords to sit on an “independent” committee overseeing Scotland’s budget.

      I also noted that no more than half a dozen Tory and Labour MPs attended the Scotland Bill debate but all turned up in droves to vote at the end of the evening.

    138. Mealer says:

      A MacRitchie 10.08,
      I think Mr Salmond was referring to a future scenario where London and Edinburgh might agree ever more powers for the Scottish Parliament until one day we woke up to find Holyrood controlling everything and,almost by default,Scotland being independent.This is the route New Zealand took to independence and is very different to UDI.

    139. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Can we stop this futile discussion about UDI?

      You can only seriously declare UDI if you are entirely confident that the apparatus of state – the police,the armed forces,
      the parliament,local government, etc etc are with you and will back you.

      We can go independent through a referendum (the clearest method) and the SNP has settled on this or through a parliamentary vote when the government has won a national election (best with a majority of votes cast) at which the assumption of independence on a majority had been on the manifesto the people had voted for.

      Some Irish attempted a UDI in 1916 but got jailed and executed. In 1918 however Irish nationalists took 78% of the vote in a Westminster Election in that part of the island we now know as the Republic of Ireland. They quite legitimately declared themselves independent in 1919 (though UK pre UN refused to accept that and started a war)

    140. Effijy says:

      Petra says:
      29 June, 2015 at 2:26 pm
      @ Effijy says at 12:46 pm ”There is no doubt in the justification in making a complaint to: https://www.ipso.co.uk/

      Thanks Petra!

      I registered my complaint with IPSO and I did raise that same point about this being a repeat of French Gate where no investigative journalism takes place, and where all parties confirm the story to 100% fictitious, only for the press to
      continue with the lie as a headline banner.

      The media’s biased back-up of Carmichael’s lies put another fraud into parliament and wasted £1 million of the limited funds available help those in dire need.

    141. Husker says:

      This is part of a concerted effort by the unionist MSM to attack the SNP. In a democracy where difference of opinion is essential, it is valid and healthy part of the political process.

      However, given the extent that the SNP has on Scottish society and political life, in their attempts to attack and undermine the SNP, they are attacking and undermining Scotland, in particular business confidence and perception of us south of border which in turns affects tourism.

      At the moment, without in-depth studies, it is hard to gauge how much an effect these concerted attack by the media is having on confidence in our economy by outside investors as well as tourist numbers. Regardless of the scale, it is got to get through to some Scottish unionists that these attacks are aimed at Scotland not the SNP and they are potentially harmful and potentially to their own livelihoods and the future prosperity of their children.

      They surely can’t be that ideologically blinkered to realise that this most stop and the hysteria by the media they support be turned down quite a few notches?

    142. Grouse Beater says:

      Sinky: I noted that no more than half a dozen Tory and Labour MPs attended the Scotland Bill debate, but all turned up in droves to vote at the end of the evening.

      Slave Labour?

    143. majestic12 says:

      O/T

      I posted this on off-topic on 18th June, along with some follow up comments from me and the sterling sorts that hang out there.

      In light of the recent atrocities in Tunisia, Kuwait and Kobane I think it important that certain facts are brought to wider attention. Stupid Labour dossiers and other inane distractions are just that -distractions. On reading the documents contained in the link, I have to wonder if we are observing the law of unintended consequences in action, or am I being much too generous in that interpretation?

      Complicity through proxies can lead to a defence of plausible deniabilty, but when incriminating documents are released through FoI and the courts, it’s awfully hard to keep saying, “It wisnae me, honest.”

      http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/

    144. A MacRitcchie says:

      Mealer 10:40

      Ah well there is nae chance o that happening as every clause the SNP has put forward has been defeated especially on clause 33 54 tonight.

      As I’ve said UDI is a bit foggy and what you describe re NZ sounds a bit like UDI as my understanding of it is that you have the powers to run a country as to virtually to be running the country yourself which enables you to declare UDI?

      Really is unclear as to what it actually means then.

    145. Iain More says:

      Those who think the greedy grasping corrupt sleazy bankrupt Brit Nationalist State is going to ever let Scotland have a fair Referendum are impersonating ostriches.

    146. Tam Jardine says:

      Husker

      They surely can’t be that ideologically blinkered to realise that this most stop and the hysteria by the media they support be turned down quite a few notches?

      On the contrary – it must continue. In a situation where the demonising of the SNP and the people of Scotland serves the interests of the establishment and that of the SNP it can only continue.

      We are in the process of independence. Forces are at play that cannot be easily undone. Our resolve is being tested but the UK/British Empire has been through this process many times before and the end result is always independence.

      And if the SNP becomes mired in scandal or becomes part of the establishment and sells out another party will take up the cause.

      Dave dismisses UDI… probably 90% of people south of the border are unaware of the term but we need a far stronger mandate than we have right now to carry the backing of the people and make it stick.

      I’m as impatient to free Scotland from Westminster rule as the next man- we just need to hold the course. Westminster are currently doing all the running on this. The trajectory is pointing in one direction only.

      George Osborne’s punitive budget (at a time when my retail job suggests the economy is finally starting to motor) will push us further towards our goal

    147. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Rock.

      You typed,
      Robert Peffers is a pedantic bore and you will be too if you join in with his pedantry.

      Ah well, you’re entitled to your opinion but I believe you should argue with people’s views, not insult them personally.

      In my world, I wouldn’t, face to face, presume to call someone a ‘pedantic bore’, because I disagreed with their input into the conversation taking place. I would put forward my own point of view to counter their opinion.

      If you have a problem with Robert Peffers’ posts, then you should argue why he is wrong – play the ball, not the man.

    148. ronnie anderson says:

      Am gone tae ma bed disspondent, but NOT Defeated

    149. Robert Peffers says:

      @Brian Doonthetoon says: 29 June, 2015 at 9:22 pm:

      “The Scottish people have no need to declare “UDI”, as Robert Peffers and others have explained over the past few months.

      As I understand it, because the Scots Parliament was never dissolved and is back in situ, and the people of Scotland are Sovereign, all that is needed is a majority of MSP’s elected on a mandate of ‘dissolution of the Act Of Union, 1707?, or on a mandate of holding IndyRef2. Perchance, someone can tell me if I’ve picked it up wrong.”

      Almost right, Brian Doonthetoon, The bit about the Scottish Parliament only being prorogued, (not officially wound up), was only by way of explanation as is what’s coming now.

      The whole thing is down to who was legally sovereign in The Kingdom of Scotland and who was sovereign in the three country Kingdom of England before 1688, from 1688 to 1706/7 and who is sovereign now.

      So the first thing to understand is what is meant by, “Sovereign”, and I can do no better than quote the Oxford Dictionary which says this : –

      sovereignty/ n. (pl. -ies)
      1 supremacy.
      2 self-government.
      3 a self-governing state.

      So, historically it goes like this : –

      In Christendom, That was Europe, the law was , “The Divine Right of Kings”, and that gave all monarchs, “supremacy”, by God given right. However, God’s representative on Earth was the Pope, (nae sectarianism back then), and so the Pope was the International Authority of the time.

      To cut a long story short the events : –
      The Scottish King inheriting the Englsh Crown but unable to form a united kingdom.

      The English Glorious Revolution made the English Kingdom a Constitutional monarchy.

      The Treaty of Union made one Kingdom and one Parliament but with the Monarchy in the English Kingdom legally Sovereign but the royal power vested in the Parliament while in Scotland the people remain legally sovereign.

      There is the real situation that the Establishment is attempting to ignore. The People of Scotland have never legally given up their sovereignty.

      “In other words the Westminster Parliament is only sovereign in England, Wales and Northern Ireland as it takes it’s sovereignty from the English Crown who signed away their right to exercise their powers, or explained another way the Englsh Monarchy, (William & Mary), in order to obtain the Crown delegated their powers to parliament.

      While in Scotland the people of Scotland remain legally sovereign. Thus, when we elect an MP, or an MSP, what we are legally doing is giving our elected representative our sovereign mandate to wield our legal sovereignty.,

      So if either we elect a Westminster MP or a Holyrood MSP who has run on a manifesto ticket of withdrawing from the Union they can legally do so. You thus must realise that in order for this to legally stick the most simple way is for a majority in either parliament to belong to a party that has such a promise in their manifesto.

      To make that clear – if the SNP had said in their GE Manifesto they would walk out of Westminster and return to Holyrood to run Scotland it would have been legal as they represent the Sovereign People of Scotland.

      Think of it this way – An upper house of the 62 former Westminster MPs, (the other three could please themselves), and a Lower House in Holyrood, (the reconvened old Scottish Parliament). In following Elections the Holyrood members are already composed of more than one party and the next upper house election could see a valid opposition in the Upper house.

    150. Phronesis says:

      Ethics,concern for the well- being of others is a key element of a common,universal human nature and significant form of human solidarity described perfectly in the opening paragraph of Adam Smith’s Theory of Moral Sentiment

      “How selfish so ever man be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature,which interest him in the fortune of others ,and render their happiness necessary to him…pity or compassion,the emotion which we feel for the misery of others’

      Astonishing isn’t it that our ruling elite think that glib comments about the ‘anti austerity crusaders’ are acceptable given UKOK’s economic incompetence. We are all supposed to have mirror neurons in our brains that induce empathetic responses to others who are suffering – one can only deduce that UKOK have all had a mirror neuron bypass – revelling in their retrogressive policies that will create more poverty and inequality.

      The YES campaign had a positive realistic vision for an independent Scotland and remains relevant -basically it was the groundwork for Indy 2.

    151. Patrick Roden says:

      Dr Jims Says:
      “Every now and then I stop in wonder at Why? folk voted NO, I still find it difficult to comprehend that knowing what Scotland should know about Westminster Governments that they could still do the silliest thing a Nation could ever do to itself”

      Remember the people born in Scotland voted Yes, it was those who were born elsewhere who tipped the balance to a No vote.

      All the SNP need to do is hold a second referendum saying that only people who live in Scotland and were born in Scotland will be eligible to vote (taking the European Referendum as a guide)and we will have our independence.

      We need to stop all this moral high ground nonsense and start fighting back and fighting dirty.

      It’s within our grasp if our leadership want it…they need to grab the opportunity with both hands and tell Westminster we Scots will not be pushed around like this any longer.

    152. boris says:

      A “Claim of Right” was issued in 1826 by those in Scotland who believed the union wasn’t working, Scotland was being misgoverned, and that whatever the initial aims of political union were, they weren’t being satisfactorily fulfilled.

      Two years after Sir Walter Scott urged “The Scottish members of parliament should therefore lose no time – not an instant – in uniting together in their national character of the Representatives of Scotland.” Scott never lived to see his “representatives” unite.

      In 2015 our representatives remain divided. Westminster continues to dominate Scotland. But there is a way forward. Our politicians should heed the words of Walter Scott and unite behind a common cause. Scotland has the right to be an independent nation.

    153. crazycat says:

      @ Patrick Roden

      Remember the people born in Scotland voted Yes, it was those who were born elsewhere who tipped the balance to a No vote.

      Really? Everyone born in Scotland voted Yes and no-one (not even me) born in England did?

      I’m getting pretty sick of this rubbish. Convert the Scottish-born No voters and you won’t have to worry about anyone else. We’ve been through this time and again and I’m finding it increasingly offensive. I didn’t choose where I was born any more than you did. I spent hundreds of hours and thousands of pounds campaigning last year and I won’t be excluded by you.

    154. Dumb Unicorn says:

      O/T

      I noticed this morning that the article in the BBC on the Scotland Bill showed a picture of a very well attended commons chamber. To be fair the debate hadn’t taken place yet, so they didn’t know how many MPs would attend, but their choice of picture is very telling. I’m so used to their ‘subtle’ embellishment of the truth to fit their agenda that it just made me laugh.

      And sure enough, someone has posted a picture on SNP twitter this afternoon showing how many MPs of various colours actually did attend the Scotland Bill debate – which was pretty much what people in Scotland have come to expect. It is however exactly what the BBC expected to happen, and exactly the reason why they chose the picture showing the opposite (which of course is still there, albeit further down the article).

      The BBC knew that the attendance would be low, except for the SNP, and they don’t want people to notice that, because it plays into the hands of the independence movement. So they display the opposite in the hope that people will see their picture instead of the truth.

      Even if you pointed it out, many people will think these things happen by accident, because of lazy journalism, but the BBC are deliberately manipulating the public’s view of the world at every turn. Every article, every picture is carefully considered to try and steer society’s view in the direction they want. It’s no longer news, it’s no longer journalism.

      The problem is, that many of us who have already noticed their tactics become blasé about it, we stop watching, we think because we’re wise to it that we can just laugh to ourselves and roll our eyes (which is what I did this morning). But we shouldn’t. We should continue to shout and complain, and point out all the misrepresentations and the deliberate twisting of storylines and pictures. Once people see what is happening, it’s hard to un-see it, so it’s vital to keep shining a light on it. The more people who are wise to it, the less power it has.

      So thank you Wings 🙂

    155. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @majestic12 (11.13) –

      Hear hear.

      The post-9/11 narrative has become predictable – all politicians dutifully queuing-up to trot out the usual platitudes.

      ‘Predictable’ soon becomes ‘boring’, and people, like animals, are not capable of being bored and afraid simultaneously. That’s why ‘Project Fear’ (as a microcosm of ‘Shock & Awe’) just doesn’t work – we’ve heard it all before.

      The SNP’s 56 will surely do their best to act as a spanner in the WM works, but the positive and creative work of rebuilding Scotland after three centuries of exploitation and relentless, brutal, debilitating contempt has to come from those of us who are not compromised by party-political and/or profit-based concerns.

      The real advances are going to be made by those who are not fettered by ‘history’. The artists, writers and musicians who help bring a new, refreshed Scotland into being are those who will have the freedom of leaving politics to trustworthy politicians, and be able to concentrate on raising the bar in their respective fields.

      So much recent art has become about ‘protest’, it’s easy to forget that one of the main reasons for protesting is to create a society where real artists can be left in peace to get on with what they do best – not waste time and energy thinking about the huge cast of worthless fuds who exert such dominance over all our lives.

      ‘Work as if you were living in the early days of a better nation.’

      Hmm…yeah…does anyone know how Alasdair Gray’s doing?

    156. Dal Riata says:

      He of the ‘pronounced’ vowels and strange Scottish accent, Fraser Nelson, in an article in today’s (June 29) Telegraph subtitled:

      “On issue after issue, Scottish opinion is to the right of Nicola Sturgeon and her nationalist party”

      … said the following (excerpts from his article):

      “For all of her success, Nicola Sturgeon is not quite ready to pick a fight with the Queen. Scotland’s First Minister was at great pains to deny reports that she is withholding money due to the Crown, but the story was damaging because it seemed so plausible.(bolds are mine)

      “In fact, since devolution, Scots have become significantly more likely to agree with the splendidly patriotic assertion that “the world would be better if people were more like the British”.”

      “On issue after issue, Scottish public opinion is significantly to the right of the Edinburgh political elite.”

      “If you believe that countries are about people, not politicians, then Britain’s nation fabric is strong – and getting stronger. There’s a wonderful saying in Scots: “We’re all Jock Tamson’s Bairns.” It means that, in spite of superficial differences like accents and skin colour, we’re pretty much all the same. A sentiment that holds more true for the residents of our small, windswept island than the SNP will ever allow.”

      There speaks the delusional, wishful-thinking voice of the UKOK Britnats.

      Do also note the bolded (mine) sentence for some idea of why the Times has persisted with their “Scotland to cancel funding for the queen” story – “… the story was damaging because it seemed so plausible.” – and their disgraceful “Insurrection” editorial. Keep the story prominent, truthful or not, make it seem “plausible”, and therefore “damaging”. Plant the seed of doubt. Job done!

    157. Grouse Beater says:

      Dal Riata

      More utter drivel from the ‘what can I write next?’ half-Nelson. A dire editor of a dire publication.

    158. “crazycat says:
      30 June, 2015 at 12:12 am
      @ Patrick Roden

      Remember the people born in Scotland voted Yes, it was those who were born elsewhere who tipped the balance to a No vote.

      Really? Everyone born in Scotland voted Yes and no-one (not even me) born in England did?”

      hear, hear, crazycat! I – born here, so what – want independence for various reasons, the biggest of which is my desire to live in a fairer, more equitable, more peaceful society. You don’t achieve that by disenfranchising a swathe of your inhabitants at day zero. If Patrick Roden had been born here, moved to Timbuktu the next day, and came back to vote in a referendum, how could he have any more right to decide the country’s future than a non-native long term resident?

      The mind boggles. Let’s leave that kind of ethnocentric, half baked, jingoistic bumff to Tories, trolls, and other arses.

    159. Robert Peffers says:

      @Mealer says: 29 June, 2015 at 10:40 pm:

      “… This is the route New Zealand took to independence and is very different to UDI”.

      How hard is it to understand, Mealer, that it is not legally possible for a properly mandated majority of the legally sovereign people of Scotland to declare UDI?

      Fact 1 – The Kingdom of Scotland made the People of Scotland legally Sovereign in 1320 by the Declaration of Arbroath.

      Fact 2 – England were paid and agreed this was so by the Edinburgh-Northampton Treaty in 1328, (Thus The Treaty of Union declared Scottish Law Independent in 1606/7).

      Fact – 3 The three country Kingdom of England became legally a, “Constitutional monarchy in 1688/9”, and thus the monarch of England remains legally sovereign but William & Mary signed their exercise of their sovereign powers over to the English Parliament but as Scotland was still an independent kingdom that had no effect on Scottish Law.

      Thus if the legally sovereign people of Scotland specifically mandate their democratically elected representatives, either at Westminster or Holyrood, to dissolve the Union with the Kingdom of England it is legally NOT UDI – but an equal bipartite partnership ending by one party deciding to legally dissolve the partnership. The facts being that West minster only has sovereign power over Scotland by the sovereign will of the people invested in their democratically elected MPs. If the people do not give their sovereign power to their elected representatives then neither those members nor Westminster has legal sovereignty over Scotland.

      Can you disprove any of the above facts?

    160. I get the impression Fraser Nelson means what he says there. His problem is probably myopia rather than malice. He knows plenty Scots, but they all live in London or in castles on shooting estates. He needs to go on safari to a housing scheme. The gonk.

    161. Grouse Beater says:

      Scunterbunnet:
      The people born in Scotland voted Yes, it was those who were born elsewhere who tipped the balance to a No vote.

      University analysis afterwards pointed to the majority of Scots voting for their country’s sovereignty, whilst the majority of incomers considered themselves British first, and voted No, no matter how much they said they valued the ‘quality of life’ in Scotland.

      Make of that what you will, but it’s a hellova hurdle to get over next time.

    162. Grouse Beater says:

      Ian: does anyone know how Alasdair Gray’s doing?

      Not well. You don’t heal quickly at his age.

    163. Dal Riata says:

      @Grouse Beater at 12:36 am

      Indeed.

      Whenever I have the misfortune of seeing and hearing yer man on TV, my body goes into an uncontolled state of repeat intervals of Tourette’s syndrome and cyclic vomiting syndrome, and all while suffering terribly with irritable bowel syndrome…

      Fraser Nelson should come with a health warning!

    164. msean says:

      This union just doesn’t work. Try to stand and we get voted down,but at least the snp are trying to stand up. The NO side made promises in front of the whole world,now break them on live tv not even a year later.

      You would think that Labour would at least vote in a way that might help them at next years Scottish Elections,even if they lost a commons vote doing so. 3 MPs outweigh 56 MPs,real democratic.504 against,we now need to leave.

    165. Dr Jim says:

      @Patrick Roden

      Thing is mate, I’ve got Pakistani friends English friends and one Indonesian Pal and they all voted Yes

      I understand the frustration but that’s not the road to go down

      There’s no legislating for who will do what at any given time and if you start picking and choosing who can and can’t do something by virtue of their ethnicity then in my book you just became a UKIP Tory Britnat and I’m sure that’s not your intention

      When you want the dice to fall a particular way and it doesn’t you get the “Want to do it again different fever”
      Gamblers get it all the time, actually it’s a quite normal reaction to depression

      ( If only I had done this or that it would have been OK )

      You want a do over, but no mistakes this time
      I’m right with you about the anger and the upset but watch out for becoming what you don’t like about the opposition

      Look at Cameron he’s blaming Muslims for some of their kids not doing the right thing (since when did anybody’s kids become perfect)
      Cameron blames poor people for being poor
      Disabled for being disabled
      No immigrants here
      Scotland being full of Scots
      Doesn’t like the Bog trotting Irish
      Welsh are an irrelevance

      Only Gypsies and Jews left for goodness sake

      And these are the people who claim We’re the Nazis ( Sheesh )

    166. @Grouse Beater @12:56am

      English immigrants voting no is indeed a “helluva hurdle” … but the answer is definitely not to deny them a vote, or threaten to.

      I talked a few English-born folk around to the Yes side – based on the possibilities for improving inclusiveness and social justice after independence. You can rule those conversions out if pro-Indy people start talking about examining birth certificates at the polling booth.

      Apart from that, many of the new (born-here) supporters of independence who made up the 45% would be disgusted at the prospect. Either because they come from a socialist/internationalist background, or because they’re 2nd or 3rd generation descendents of immigrants themselves. A LOT of Yes supporters were sold on the idea of Civic Nationalism last year. They’d leave the National Movement in droves if there was even a hint that ANYONE in independent Scotland will be ‘second-class-citizened’ or ‘othered’ based on their ethnic or national origins.

      We’re arguing for democracy: we need to rigorously eschew undemocratic practice, even where we stand to benefit. We HOLD the moral high ground, and we’re winning from that strong defensible position. Let’s stay there and complete the win.

    167. Grouse Beater says:

      The answer is definitely not to deny them a vote, or threaten to.
      I didn’t. But I retain the right to be unhappy with their belligerence at my nation’s expense. I am of the opinion few will change their mind. They consider to be British is grown up; to be Scots is to be provincial. To me, ‘British’ is insular.

      We’re arguing for democracy
      Which is exactly what they assume is theirs being British. A few might waver when they understand Scots ARE internationalists – we want to connect with the rest of the world on our own terms and not through a ‘British’ proxy.

    168. crazycat says:

      @ Scunterbunnet

      Yep – and thanks for your support earlier.

      Patrick’s original suggestion would have the next referendum decided by Ian Murray, David Mundell, Alistair Carmichael, Kezia Dugdale, Margaret Curran, Gordon Matheson and Ian Davidson, but not by Philippa Whitford, Tommy Sheppard, Christian Allard, Deidre Brock, Tasmina Ahmed Sheikh, Mike Russell or Aamer Anwar.

      I want to win next time, and “birthplace nationalism” (it’s not even ethnic) isn’t the way to do that, as far as I can see.

    169. Grouse Beater says:

      Scunterbonnet: English immigrants voting no is indeed a “helluva hurdle”

      You’ll note I never mentioned English once in my post.

      Not only English, posh Jocks too voted No. Many Chinese voted No. Chinese, those of the older generation, Han and Cantonese especially, tend not to mix with ‘westerners’ but instead to create their own closed community – a difficult society to have assimilate our ideas.

    170. K1 says:

      Joseph Stiglitz has his say in the Guardian and highlights what the real issues are regarding Greece:

      “But why would Europe do this? Why are European Union leaders resisting the referendum and refusing even to extend by a few days the June 30 deadline for Greece’s next payment to the IMF? Isn’t Europe all about democracy?

      In January, Greece’s citizens voted for a government committed to ending austerity. If the government were simply fulfilling its campaign promises, it would already have rejected the proposal. But it wanted to give Greeks a chance to weigh in on this issue, so critical for their country’s future wellbeing.”

      Run Greece, run for the fucking hills…

      https://archive.is/ZSHTO#selection-1585.1-1585.16

    171. Camz says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill

      “They quite legitimately declared themselves independent in 1919 (though UK pre UN refused to accept that and started a war)”

      It begs the question. How far would England go to keep its seat on the permanent security council?

    172. Joemcg says:

      Crazycat-so Patrick’s idea which you dismiss out of hand probably guarantees a yes but you want your vote entitlement which would put the whole vote in the balance again but it doesnae matter because you could still get to vote?? Eh???

    173. Capella says:

      @ Dal Riata
      Good find. Fraser Nelson is pointing out how defamatory the Times article is with that remark “but the story was damaging because it seemed so plausible”. In other words “we know it isn’t true but it sounds plausible so it will be damaging.”

      Well Nicola’s a solicitor so I suppose she will know when it’s worth pursuing damages.

      BTW agree with Scunterbunnet and crazycat re ethnic nationalism – to be avoided like the plague (of measles as Einstein once described it).

    174. Charles Edward says:

      The Times always has been a strict establishment propaganda tool.

      The Financial Times has an article about Bill Gates wishing to support renewable energy research with 2 billion.
      University of Dundee Scientists have been working on an anti- malarial drug which might go a long way to stopping the spread of the disease. Their work has been published in Nature.

      Bill Gates will have read about this.
      He may now be aware that Scotland has world class Scientists working on projects he feels strongly about. He has donated many millions to the research and treatment of malaria.

      He may not be aware that Scotland also has world class renewable energy research being conducted here. Both the research and industry development need funding to push forward into the future.

      Dynamic intelligence requires effective leadership.

    175. john king says:

      Joemcg @3.11
      The only flaw with that argument Joe is that you assume the Scots who voted yes would do so again under a ruling that non Scots would not be allowed a vote,

      I’ll tell you who wouldn’t vote yes under those conditions, ME,
      we go together OR NOT AT ALL!

      If we’re going to start our new country by excluding some of our citizens in deciding its future what does that make us?
      I’ll tell you what it makes us, no better then the people we want to leave,
      we at a stroke become the very thing we despise most about Westminster

      We do that Joe and they’ve won, I think that’s why Cameron played the UK citizen card with the EU referendum, he’s only too well aware were going to have another independence referendum and he’s gagging for us to follow his lead because he knows full well the inclusive nature of the YES campaign was its greatest strength and it was oh so close to succeeding, he wants to make sure he hobbles that horse before the race and the best way to do that is to encourage division.
      If the argument is strong enough, no amount of British nationalism will stop it,

      Now MORE THAN EVER we need to stand together and show we cannot be divided!

    176. JLT says:

      To be honest (and I’m still debating over writing an article for Wings about the similarities of politics between Scotland 2015 and Ireland 1919), that somewhere down the line, and I think it will come, that the SNP and Westminster will finally lock horns in a vicious way in Westminster and that the train really comes off the tracks as it turns into a screaming match.

      I suspect it will revolve around Europe (I can see Nicola visiting Brussels looking for guarantees about Scotland’s place remaining in the EU should the vote end the wrong way). I believe such visits will be deemed treacherous in Unionists eyes.

      That’s when it will get truly interesting with the press. I believe the tone of language and rhetoric then will go not only through the roof, but will also hits the pits of the lowest standards.

    177. Ken500 says:

      Anyone who has watched Mundell and Murray’s performance in the Commons should be black affronted. What a pantomime. Westminster is a disgrace. It makes people sick. It should only take another five years to make Scotland Independent. The Unionists squabbling over VAT. Another example of how Scotland economises and is penalised. Paying VAT on Police and Fire services.

      The Tories have lost £134Billion in tax revenues since 2010. In 2010 £600Billion a year was raised in tax revenues in the UK. Now it is £466Billion Scotland raises what it spends but could raise more by cutting Trident/illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Putting a tax on ‘loss leading’ drink, a land tax on nonproductive land etc. In the UK land is exempt from tax. Develop the Oil on the West and investment on the Clyde, building turbines, liners and frigates. It could get Renewable Grants from the EU. Westminster indecision blocks EU Grants to Scotland.

      It would be quite legitimate to have a residential qualification 2/3 years in another Independence Referendum or when it is 60/40 Yes in the Polls. Soon there will be no Unionist politicians in Scotland, 2016/17. Especially the way Westminster is carrying on. Sanctioning and starving the vulnerable. The Tories are cutting the disability living allowance, which allows disabled people to live independently and work. More disabled people will be in residential care which is totally unfair and is much more costly. The Scottish Gov will once again have to mitigate these cuts.

    178. Ken500 says:

      There are few similarities between Ireland 1919 and Scotland 2015, apart from the wish for fiscal autonomy/Home Rule/Independence. In 1919 no Universal Sufferage. (1928) 1WW. There was a Bill for Irish Home Rule intended in Westminster delayed by the 1WW. Religious discrimination in Ireland. The Unionists in Ulster took up arms. Ulster raises £14Billion in tax revenues gets £8Billion. Rewarded for bigotry. Demographically Ireland could soon vote to reunite.

      Scotland has always gone through the Ballot Box. Now has more representational governance at Holyrood.

    179. Ken500 says:

      What Mundell and the Tories want Scotland to do is keep on handing over £10Billion for Trident/illegal wars, banking fraud and tax evasion. Then to increase taxes in Scotland for public services. People in Scotland aren’t buying it.

    180. Macart says:

      @John King

      The argument for independence was always strong John. The opposition just had to be louder, more repetitive and more widespread. Their argument of fear and doubt had access to the highest reaches of government machinery, the entire UK media network and three major party propaganda machines. It was always going to be louder despite the fact it was nine tenths pish. They’ll do exactly the same thing next time too… and they’ll fail.

      Despite all of that advantage they managed to haemorrhage 20pt of a 30pt+ lead. They’re so terrified of a resurgent SNP post referendum, they’re still fighting the last referendum every day of the week in their own press (its not our press). Because of the shear size of the SNP presence, they are supposedly guaranteed more media coverage and yet we hear nothing but opposition commentary. Why is that do you think?

      Because they’re doing exactly as we expected of them and being a regular pain in the arse to the government of the day.

      Those deceiving pricks wanted participation, well they’ve got it. How they respond to it will inform the Scottish electorate quite adequately as to how they and their wishes are regarded. So far Westminster seems hell bent on consigning Scots to being second class citizens, their representatives scorned and mocked, the publics wishes kicked in to touch out of hand and with an arrogance and ignorance second to none.

      For every part of that vow that bites the dust another of those said independence, but not yet, becomes independence very next chance I get.

      And they’ll get that chance. All they have to do is give the Scottish government permission when it is asked and the Scottish Government will follow the settled will of the people of Scotland. Y’know, like a government should.

      UDI is the government telling the people what to do. A referendum is the people telling the government what to do.

    181. Ken500 says:

      Merkel is playing chicken over £5Billion, which could affect 500million people and lose much, much more. Greece will get it’s bailout.

    182. Sinky says:

      Does anyone know if SNP put forward an amendment to Scotland Bill to include devolving Broadcasting to Edinburgh?

      If so when will it be discussed?

      btw how archaic Westminster is when they wasted over an hour last night over voting on Scotland Bill which by using technology (and many were using their tablets when debate was ongoing) could have been done in five minutes?

    183. Anne Lawrie says:

      Before IndyRef2 the postal vote needs to be seriously sorted or the usual suspects will ensure Scotland’s future is headed for an abyss. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578776/Scrap-postal-votes-elections-fixed-says-judge-warns-ballot-rigging-probability-parts-Britain.html

    184. Grouse Beater says:

      We are going to hear a lot from Murray as Scotland’s only (almost) opposition MP. BBC phantom ‘balance’ and all that.

    185. Dorothy Devine says:

      Apologies for OT Rev – I as going to post this on a Herald article then thought better to post it amongst friends who can rant and rave at me if they choose.

      I was horrified by the events in Tunisia and extend my sympathy to all involved but what kind of imagination can exonerate itself from the blame of deaths and carnage in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria and attempt to point fingers in every direction but its own?

      What kind of imagination allows for body parts strewn in streets form the effects of ” shock and awe” and not realise that retribution would be sought one way or the other?

      Who is an insurgent? Someone who fights for his country against an invasion force?

      Who chooses those that are ” stable” enough to own WMDs and those who should be bombed back into the dark ages for ” possibly” having them?

      Who chooses the reports the media broadcasts and prints?
      Where are the weeping mothers , fathers , children and heartfelt pleas from those countries we have bombed into democracy for their own good?

      Ms May said , “How could a place of such beauty, of relaxation and happiness, be turned into such a scene of brutality and destruction?”
      Easy Ms May , just bomb it , roll in the tanks and hey presto!

      What arrogant superiority Westminster/Washington demonstrate to the world.

      I have ever thought that to try and claim the high moral ground was a dangerous and foolish exercise.

    186. Mealer says:

      Robert Peffers 12.53
      In my earlier post I was simply giving my opinion on what Mr Salmond was meaning.There are various routes to independence.I gave NZ as one example,where the country just sort of drifted into independence.Another might be Czechoslovakia where,from memory,the Czechs and Slovaks voted in a referendum for continued union but the politicians found they couldn’t or wouldn’t make it work and they went their separate ways anyway.
      If a Scottish government were to declare independence with out a “London Agreement” I think it would,to all intents and purposes,be considered a Unilateral Declaration of Independence by the international community,regardless of the legalities,who would only consider accepting it if backed by a referendum.I don’t dispute your position on the legalities.The Scottish people are sovereign.

    187. Robert Peffers says:

      @Husker says: 29 June, 2015 at 11:02 pm:

      … “They surely can’t be that ideologically blinkered to realise that this most stop and the hysteria by the media they support be turned down quite a few notches?”

      Are you sure about that, Husker?

      I most certainly am not.

    188. Kevin Evans says:

      Seen a few post mentioning Greece. My thoughts on Greece and the anti austerity politics it is trying to introduce is that the EU and other interested nations must let Greece fail if they go in the direction of ending austerity because if it succeeds then the cats out of the bag and other nations will follow.

    189. Nana Smith says:

      @Dorothy Devine

      Wholeheartedly agree Dorothy. Excellent post.

      That May woman is a ghoul, loathsome arrogant typical tory.

      Murdo Fraser yesterday on Greece tweeted

      So how’s that anti-austerity thing working out for Greece?

    190. Ronnie Anderson says:

      @ John King 6.02 And Im anither wan who will hitch up the Horses tae ma wagon & LEAVE.

      Im FUCKING sick tired people re-visiting this them & us, every other week.There is no them & us,we,re people who live /work in Scotland ,of any hue ( with or without purple dots).Get your arses in gear & go out on the streets & convince the People who voted NO.

      I havent spent the last 3 yrs on the online/ streets/demos campaining,for IDIOTS on here to cause devision.

      We have support from People outside Scotland,lets keep it that way.

    191. Ken500 says:

      Daesh are the fighters funded and supported by UK and the US to fight against Assad in Syria. The UK, US and France are responsible for the destruction and poverty in the Middle East for the last 100 years, especially since the 11WW. The Balfour Agreement 1917. Support for absolute, despot Monarchies, the illegal wars etc. The lies. Churchill took all Iran’s Oil. When the PM objected. M15/CIA destabilised Iran and put the PM in jail. The documents are held in the archives.

    192. Grouse Beater says:

      Nana: Link to Corbyn – one of then few MPs who made public his contempt for Westminster brutalism organised against an SNP elected government.

      https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/ian-sinclair/polly-toynbee-jeremy-corbyn-and-limits-of-acceptable-politics#.VZFDpIFX-uM.twitter

      Excellent appraisal of Corbyn.

    193. Nana Smith says:

      O/T

      I’m sick and tired of corrupt money men & politicians controlling people’s lives causing misery and harm.

      Paul Mason’s video blog from Athens

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjUAHrV3eIw&feature=youtu.be

    194. Another Union Dividend says:

      Grouse Beater @ 8.40 says:

      We still hear a lot from Ian Murray’s chief publicist / hachet man Dr Scott Arthur…. to-day lambasting SNP in Herald’s letter pages.

      Herald also reports Labour complaining about Alex Salmond earning £13,000 from books and articles etc.

      Wonder how much Ian Murray got from Daily Mail for his venomous article on Neil Hay’s three year old tweets?

    195. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy

      Good post Dorothy, well said.

    196. Grouse Beater says:

      Murdo Fraser yesterday on Greece tweeted: “So how’s that anti-austerity thing working out for Greece?”

      The cruelty of the colonial mentality beggers belief. His remark should have been, “So how’s austerity working out for Greece?” They’ve endured over five years of it, brutally imposed draconian policies.

      https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2015/06/29/greece-cheated-and-bullied/

    197. galamcennalath says:

      EVEL? What about SVSL?

      Last night at the West Midden, yet another disgraceful display.

      All amendments to the Scotland Bill get voted down by English MPs who don’t even have the decency to turn up to the earlier discussion. Most almost certainly don’t have a clue what they are actually voting for, or against.

      UK parliamentary proceedings at their ‘finest’ – avoiding democracy at all costs!

      This Union is a stinking putrid corpse which needs to be buried, an soon.

      I defy anyone to make a positive case for its continuation.

    198. Famous15 says:

      Politics programmes on Sunday are so relaxed that Unionist politician let slip that without Scottish Oil the UK would be in recession.Just think that through. Where is there room for FFA black holes if he was correct. We are being duped.

      We must never accept welfare compensation powers or top up powers without FFA. It is a trap.

      All our taxes or none. More powers are simply more burdens unless FFA is applied.

    199. Robert Peffers says:

      @Grouse Beater says: 29 June, 2015 at 11:03 pm:

      ” … I noted that no more than half a dozen Tory and Labour MPs attended the Scotland Bill debate, but all turned up in droves to vote at the end of the evening.”

      That, Grouse Beater, is the normal modus operandi of, “The Lesser Spotted Party Hack”. This exotic species, of the none too rare, party animal, are not genetically programmed to listen to reasoned debate but they instinctively obey the division bell. Much like Pavlov’s Dogs, they blindly vote as instructed, and are pre-programmed, by the party whips.

      These whips, in strict obedience to their respective party cabinets, in turn obey the diktat of their respective leadership and the leadership in their turn are directed by those who finance their political parties.

      i.e. The Conservative Party are controlled by international big business and the international financial sector. Modern Labour are increasingly also under the control of the same overlords but slightly deflected by the money donated by the Trade Unions with mainly unwillingly paid political levy imposed upon their membership.

      In fact the House of Commons was designed to be unable to house the full compliment of members in the debating chamber and is provided with individual, “Offices”, and many top quality eating, drinking and leisure places to keep the lobby cannon fodder happy and out of the way.

      In fact, for all the use many of these elected persons are, they would be better employed staying at home in their constituencies dealing with the day to day local and regional business for their constituents. Unfortunately most such party hacks are not even mentally equipped to cope with that.

    200. Grouse Beater says:

      AUD: Herald also reports Labour complaining about Alex Salmond earning £13,000 from books and articles etc.

      Amazing. £13,000 less tax.

    201. Sinky says:

      Good article on last night’s House of Commons FFA debate.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/deafening-cheers-as-westminster.html

      A photo of the empty Tory and Labour benches should be required viewing for all NO voters.

    202. Petra says:

      O/T

      This issue of who is allowed to vote in the next Indyref is extremely emotive as we all know from previous discussion on this subject. And lest we forget WE wont be deciding who will be allowed to vote either so it is no more or less than a debate on here.

      However as billboard advertising (content and location of) has been mentioned and many of us spend a great deal of time canvassing and so on I reckon that it would make sense for us to be aware of the facts.

      Edinburgh University has carried out the biggest study in Scotland, involving thousands of people, and their research findings highlighted that the majority of Scots born here voted YES while voters from elsewhere in the UK said NO. More importantly the way that the latter group voted was absolutely crucial to the outcome.

      Nearly three quarters of people who had relocated from elsewhere in the UK voted for the Union as the concept of ‘Britishness’ was important to them due to having an allegiance with their birthplace / prior home location.

      An interesting result emerged from the study and that was that it was different for voters who originally came from outside of the UK with the majority voting YES, as they had made a conscious decision to move to Scotland.

      Age was a major factor with the divide between YES and NO voters becoming even wider the more aged one was.

      More than 62 per cent of voters aged 16 to 19 backed Independence.

      The YES side also had a majority among voters aged 20 to 39, whilst voters aged 40 to 49 were split almost exactly down the middle.

      But 50 to 59 year olds (52.9%), 60 to 69-year-olds (56.3) and voters aged 70 or older (65.7) were more likely to vote NO.

      Religion also played a part with Roman Catholics more like to vote YES than Protestants.

      Research carried out in relation to analysis of ‘identity’ exhibited the following results:

      Scottish not British group – 88.6% voted YES.

      More Scottish than British – 60.4% voted YES

      Equally Scottish and British – 18.6% voted YES

      More British than Scottish – 12.4% voted YES

      British not Scottish – 10% voted YES

      I understand that individuals who have relocated to Scotland or have even lived here for most of (or all of) their lives feel absolutely insulted and very angry indeed by any suggestion of them not voting in a future Scottish Referendum. They don’t want to be excluded or disenfranchised especially as many of them have worked their butts off, and continue to do so, to acquire Independence for Scotland.

      I also know that many Scots, well over 800,000, who have relocated to rUK also felt absolutely insulted and very angry from being excluded and disenfranchised from the last Referendum, especially as many of them have had to relocate to find work.

      I know I’ll probably get shouted down on this but if individuals who have relocated to Scotland can vote so too should those Scots who have relocated to places in rUK. Why should they be discriminated against? So too should our Scottish Servicemen and women who have been relocated to England and further afield by Westminster.

      I would also, at least, put a 2 year residency restriction on right to vote to eliminate migrant workers, some students and those who decide to rent a property in the weeks leading up to a Referendum. Individuals who own holiday homes in Scotland should be excluded altogether imo.

    203. Nana Smith says:

      @Grouse Beater

      Sadly Mr Corbyn does not fit in with the corporate/msm agenda.

      Burnham’s their man. If my memory serves was it not Millburn and Burnham who began the NHS privatisation.

      I’m sure someone on here will put me right if I’ve got it wrong.

    204. frogesque says:

      Ronnie Anderson says:
      30 June, 2015 at 9:07 am
      @ John King 6.02 And Im anither wan who will hitch up the Horses tae ma wagon & LEAVE.

      Im FUCKING sick tired people re-visiting this them & us, every other week.There is no them & us,we,re people who live /work in Scotland ,of any hue ( with or without purple dots).Get your arses in gear & go out on the streets & convince the People who voted NO.

      I havent spent the last 3 yrs on the online/ streets/demos campaining,for IDIOTS on here to cause devision.

      We have support from People outside Scotland,lets keep it that way.

      Well said! I convinced my NO voter, Sottish born partner to vote SNP at the last GE, this is a long and delicate process lol!

      The real hard core problem is the Scottish born OO (why are orangutans orange? Oook!) sympathisers and supporters who think they are “‘ra peeeple”

      English born residents (and the concerned and elderly for that matter) can at least be approached and debated with, they may not in the end agree but they will listen – it’s called democracy.

      I have an identity, it’s Scottish to the core despite what it says on my birth certificate. Simple residency is the easiest and fairest system for a democratic IRef#2. Anyone who doesn’t want to stay and work towards a better Scotland can always go to a perceived better land elsewhere – I genuinely hope they will prosper.

    205. Alastair says:

      Re Alex Salmon’s £13,000 form a newspaper.
      To put this into into perspective Boris Johnstone is on £275,000 a year from the Telegraph.

      Seem a much bigger story for the Herald.

    206. @Grouse Beater

      For clarity, my previous rant wasn’t addressing your reply… I was still arguing in ma heid with Patrick R. I think we’re all on the same page here, but sometimes we’re singing at different tempos 🙂

    207. unionismisnotnormal says:

      Dont know about you but this Country is starting to feel more and more like a Colony everyday. A IndyRef2 on our own terms only not Westminsters or UDI?

    208. Nana Smith says:

      This tweet sums up last night’s farce. Deliberately insulting to all Scots.

      Alan Brown MP ? 12h12 hours ago

      Chamber been empty all night but now watch as the Tories and Labour troop in to vote against Scotland yet again

    209. Robert Peffers says:

      @Rock says: 29 June, 2015 at 10:16 pm:

      “Robert Peffers is a pedantic bore and you will be too if you join in with his pedantry.”

      Thank you very much, Rock. From you I will take that as a great compliment.

      “Not even the SNP is paying any attention to the historic legal basis of the treaty of union.”

      That, Rock, as explained already, is because the historic facts are by way of an explanation of how the legal situation extant today is arrived at. It is the independent legal setup existing today that is the important point.

      The existing sovereignty, and legal standing, of the monarchy, and thus the Westminster Parliament, in the three country Kingdom of England is different to the monarchy’s and Westminster Parliaments legal standing in Scotland. That fact has always been totally ignored by the Establishment as the historic facts I post prove beyond doubt. That is, of course, the very reason I post and cite the history that proves that point.

      “The current political thinking and practice within the SNP, the only party that can lead us to independence, is that only a democratic Yes vote in a referendum can lead us to independence.”

      Laughably you miss several important points in that above paragraph. First of all you cannot presume to know what the current thinking is within the SNP – any more than I can. Secondly the independence movement is wider than just the SNP and indeed there are many supporters with no party loyalties. Thirdly, “only a democratic Yes vote in a referendum can lead us to independence”, is total claptrap. All referenda are legally advisory only – unless backed up by a democratically mandated promise of intent and a legal framework to support them.

      The rest of your post is utter bollox and needs no comment from me.

    210. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Since I refuse to give Uncle Rupert any more cash than I can help, can anyone tell me: has the lie been taken down off The Times website yet?

    211. Nana Smith says:

      Should have phrased it better by saying Westminster deliberately insulting to all Scots.

      Sure you all knew that’s what I meant?

      anyway here’s another link

      http://www.itv.com/news/2015-06-30/welfare-dependency-report-condemned-as-misleading-and-spin/

    212. Petra says:

      @ Sinky says at 8:27 am ”Does anyone know if SNP put forward an amendment to Scotland Bill to include devolving Broadcasting to Edinburgh? If so when will it be discussed?”

      They have Sinky. It should come up for discussion soon but you can bet your bottom dollar that the ‘most devolved Parliament in the World’ wont get it.

      @ Anne Lawrie says at 8:28 am ”Before IndyRef2 the postal vote needs to be seriously sorted or the usual suspects will ensure Scotland’s future is headed for an abyss. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2578776/Scrap-postal-votes-elections-fixed-says-judge-warns-ballot-rigging-probability-parts-Britain.html

      Anne this is one area that we should really focus on when canvassing. Over 800,000 thousand people used postal votes and if the article you have posted and the Argyle and Bute analysis of the postal vote CON is anything to go by it seriously weakens our chances of winning.

      @ Dorothy Devine 8:40am says: ” …. I was horrified by the events in Tunisia and extend my sympathy to all involved but what kind of imagination can exonerate itself from the blame of deaths and carnage in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria and attempt to point fingers in every direction but its own? ….”

      Dorothy I agree with you 100%. Westminster and the USA have a LOT to answer for. Cameron announced yesterday that he’s setting up a committee to help understand IS (AS and AR have both tried to correct DC on this one. It’s Daesh not IS) ideology and why UK residents want to join them. They could save themselves a great deal of time and money by asking the likes of us or send their team to say Iraq and ask some of the locals there. Anyone who does attempt to bring this up in the Commons is cut off and / or ridiculed. No doubt made to feel like a tractor. What’s happened to Chilcott and if it ever does get published is it going to be another whitewash? Tony Blair, Jack Straw et al should have been dragged off, kicking and screaming, to the Hague some time ago.

      @ Another Union Dividend says at 9:36 am Grouse Beater @ 8.40 says:

      ”We still hear a lot from Ian Murray’s chief publicist / hachet man Dr Scott Arthur…. to-day lambasting SNP in Herald’s letter pages. Herald also reports Labour complaining about Alex Salmond earning £13,000 from books and articles etc. Wonder how much Ian Murray got from Daily Mail for his venomous article on Neil Hay’s three year old tweets?”

      God they’d make you laugh. £13,000? Labour politicians, such as Murphy, Curran and Sarwar, were at the TOP of the claims expense league … greedier than the Tories … and we have Labour Politicians such as Blair the Billionaire and Lord and Lady Kinnock making over 10 million on the gravy train. You could go on and on .. Darling and Brown .. as the list is endless.

    213. Ken500 says:

      Scotland already spends £10Billion (raised in Scotland) on Welfare benefits, (higher pro rata) than the rest of the UK (£84Billion?). £6Billion on (UK) Pensions (lower pro rata). £68Billion? in the rest of the UK.

      What will Scotland do on Welfare. Mitigate the cuts coming from Westminster as they do already. £100Million and grow the Scottish economy.

      Imagine them cheering in the Commons to deny democracy. Despicable.

    214. Silverytay says:

      As others have stated far better than I can , if you live and work in Scotland you get a vote at the next referendum .
      The only stipulation I would make is that you have to have been a resident in Scotland for at least 2 years .
      This would stop people from down South abusing their holiday homes and it would also stop members of the O.O coming over from Ulster and staying at friends homes and voting .
      Saying that , I also know many people from the O.O who voted YES and are only in the O.O due to family and friends .

    215. galamcennalath says:

      @frogesque
      @Ronnie Anderson

      “Simple residency is the easiest and fairest system for a democratic IRef#2. ”

      I completely agree.

      While allowing Scots who reside outside to vote has some merit, it introduces ethnicity which is something we much avoid at all costs.

      We are better than Cameron et al who wish to exclude non UK citizens from the EU vote. Ethnicity is a card WM would have no difficulty in applying. We want a different Scotland.

    216. Robert Louis says:

      So, last night we witnessed English MP’s joined by Labour’s only Scottish MP, Iain Murray, voting down the promise made prior to the referendum.

      However, insulting and undemocratic as that is, the truly astonishing part, was watching as those MP’s cheered the vote against Scotland. If I were an SNP strategist, aiming for Scottish independence, I would be overjoyed.

      Unionists, as ever, cannot help but gloat, whilst further making the case for an end to London rule.

      With each sneering remark from Labour’s Iain Murray, and each patronising insult against Scots from the unionist parties and the English run media, the job of obtaining another independence vote, with a YES result, becomes that much easier.

      Last night was a very good night for Scottish independence.

    217. Macart says:

      @Sinky

      Yeah, they cheered. Barring three, 58 voted for and as a block (504) the rest mainly voted against and they cheered.

      I wonder what they think they’ve won?

      They’ve just made two things absolutely crystal clear to Scotland’s electorate. 1. That no vow, no federal solution and no powerhouse parliament will EVER be voted for by Westminster establishment parties and 2. That in their arrogance and ignorance they consider Scotland’s electorate, their representation, their parliament and their aspirations as second class in all respects.

      Well done them.

    218. Robert Louis says:

      Please folks stop letting people drag the debate to one side with the intentionally divisive ‘them vs. us’ debate. What if overweight people mostly voted NO, should we exclude them, or what if people called John mostly voted NO, should we exclude them??

      Who voted in the referendum was simple, if you met the requirements to be on the electoral register, then you could vote. That is how it should be. That is democracy.

      Please do not lend any credibility by engaging in debate with those who seek to stir up such division.

    219. Petra says:

      @ Sinky says at 9:52 am

      ”Good article on last night’s House of Commons FFA debate.

      http://scotgoespop.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/deafening-cheers-as-westminster.html

      A photo of the empty Tory and Labour benches should be required viewing for all NO voters.”

      Thanks for that link Sinky. Well I don’t know if thanks is the right word as it’s just made my blood boil.

      This should be posted all over the Internet as too should the Daily Records question and answer fiasco with Mundell. Mundell lying by implying, for example, that our Parliament is still permanent and stating that there are no vetoes included in the Scotland Bill. And of course the Daily Record ensuring that their readers continue to be treated like mushrooms by conveniently turning a blind eye to his lies.

    220. James Dow says:

      looking at Scotland from afar {Australia} reminds me of the TV show “the dome”. That’s just what Scotland looks like.
      Covered by a great dome, with one portal in it where the daily shit disguised as MSM is trucked up from England to be shovelled in to be consumed by the natives.

    221. Nana Smith says:

      The big lie

      Last night was Westminster’s chance to be rid of the so called subsidy Jocks, so why on earth would they vote against the Scotland bill.

      Any folk watching that shameless vote last night and not seeing why they vetoed the bill need to have their brains located and rebooted.

    222. Robert Peffers says:

      @crazycat says: 30 June, 2015 at 12:12 am:

      “I’m getting pretty sick of this rubbish. Convert the Scottish-born No voters and you won’t have to worry about anyone else.”

      You are far from alone, crazycat, and you can add to your comment the, just as stupid, claims that it was the elderly that sold out Scotland. All such claims do is annoy other dyed in the wool independence supporters.

      Statistics can, and often are, able to be twisted to suit the user’s own prejudices. I’ve supported independence and the SNP since I was a schoolboy in 1946. I have known many people in Scotland, who were born furth of Scotland, who have also supported the SNP and independence in that time.

      Indeed if not for such as I, and them, the SNP would have died out in the many lean years. Furthermore, I was around when the ultra-Nationist organisation, Siol nan Gaidheal, (Seed of the Gael), were expelled from the party, as were any semblance of, “The Scottish Liberation Army”. There always has been a lunatic fringe and it has always been resisted by the mainstream SNP.

      Extremism has always been discouraged by the mainstream party and rightly so. Read this though and wonder: –

      http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/Pages/SRSMArticlesWhiteSettlersGoHome.aspx

    223. as Ken500 said,

      “It would be quite legitimate to have a residential qualification 2/3 years in another Independence Referendum or when it is 60/40 Yes in the Polls.”

      Yes. While the idea of excluding/including voters based on place of birth is invidious, a residency restriction seems completely fair to me. And it would mitigate against all sorts of postal vote fraud and address fraud that were suspected in indyref1.

      I’m not sure how you get people to prove their residency in a fair way, though, without being overly intrusive?

      And (seriously) I’d only allow postal voting by people who have some recognisable reason to do so (over 70, or certified sick or disabled by a doctor, or live significantly further from a polling station than a postbox). A secret ballot, conducted by turning up in person and making a single mark on paper and popping it into a sealed box, is the best way of achieving a fraud-proof election. Some people need to use postal votes, but 20% of the electorate is taking the pish.

    224. Dr Jim says:

      Voting thing ruffling folks feathers again when the answer is simple
      Nobody should be allowed to vote unless they’re going to vote Yes

      What we need is mind control, we could fill up the Telly with shows about how bad the Union is
      Have the BBC only report bad news about the Union
      Get experts to rubbish Union financial
      claims for their argument
      Front page news every day on the really bad Unionists
      Make sure they’re called derogatory names relating to dictators of the past

      Damn! They already did that to us
      I thought it sounded familiar

      Ooh! just while I’m on, the Henry Jackson Society thinks “Britain” should just kill all the Moooslims
      Funny Enough, I thought they’d say that

    225. Proud Cybernat says:

      Look, Scotland–it’s simple. You decided that you wanted to remain a part of our club. In our club you don’t get to make up your own terms of membership. You abide by our club rules. Got it? Good.

    226. Molly says:

      Nana smith been trying to find out , did the Labour, the Tories and Liberals really vote for the Police and Firebrigade in Scotland to be the only emergency services in the UK to pay VAT ?

    227. Joemcg says:

      Residency is probably always going to be the rule apart from the EU referendum! But hear me out and no pedantry or historical facts hypothetically if the German nation were in our shoes and had the same vote but the massive polish community said no do you honestly think they would just shrug their shoulders and say c’est la vie or das ist leben? Think you know the answer.

    228. Mealer says:

      Proud Cybernat 11.33
      Sounds fair enough to me.”and if you don’t like it,sling yer hook”.Except that’s not what they promised the people of Scotland before the referendum.

    229. David Wardrope says:

      O/T (and a bit ranty),

      On the subject of Bills, I find the article today about identifying schoolchildren (England and Wales) as possible extremists based on their behaviour quite a bit unsettling.

      I always thought that the Extremists Bill sounded so vague when it was unveiled, and after reading the UK Governments definition of an extremist I’m convinced this will cause much trouble in future.

      Cynically looking at the Government definition of an extremist (“Vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs”), you could say that once the Extremists Bill goes through Parliament, it becomes part of the British values and so to oppose it vocally or actively could be considered an extremist action. Disliking the idea of a monarchy is extremist. My kids draw Saltires on their pictures at school, is that against British values?

      That is all.

    230. Nana Smith says:

      @Molly this is all I can find at the moment. Tweet from last night

      RIDICULOUS our police are the only force in the UK to pay VAT & the b***ard Tory says ‘decision’s been made’

      No doubt that went against us as well. We seem to pay for everything in this union.

      From Dr Paul Monaghan last evening

      Debating more powers for Scotland. Sir Edward Leigh (Con) is arguing an excellent case for Scotland. David Mundell is laughing. Says it all.

    231. galamcennalath says:

      Postal voting. Many countries allow early voting at special locations manned for a few weeks prior to election. IMO the able bodied should always vote in person, postal votes should be available only on health grounds.

      If we had early voting stations then those away from home on Election Day could vote ‘in the normal way’. Simple, not too expensive, less open to fraud.

    232. Petra says:

      Carol Monaghan SNP MP talking to Chunky Mark.

      Carol Monaghan MP Fighting Austerity 1/3

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lD6BDAaxvc

      Carol Monaghan MP Fighting Austerity 2/3

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X5x4gqu7iw

      Carol Monaghan MP Fighting Austerity 3/3

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpkwCJLppfQ

    233. Marga says:

      Interesting stuff on the possibility of expelling Greece from the EU – it might be worth monitoring EU statements for implications for an independent Scotland:

      e.g. Danuta Huebner, tweet quoted in Guardian:

      A Member State’s expulsion from the EU or #EMU would be legally next to impossible #Greece @EU_Commission http://www.pism.pl/files/?id_plik=19093

      So what about the expulsion of a region or its people? Watch this space, something may be said that commits the EU.

    234. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scunterbunnet says: 30 June, 2015 at 1:48 am:

      “English immigrants voting no is indeed a “helluva hurdle” … but the answer is definitely not to deny them a vote, or threaten to.”

      Great Post, Scunterbunnet, but here’s a thought for you.

      Those immigrants to Scotland from other United Kingdom airts who came to Scotland because they thought Scotland as a better part of, “Britain”, to live and who then voted NO, because they still felt more British than Scottish must surely now be discovering that, as far as, “The Establishment”, are concerned, they too are going to be treated in exactly the same manner as every other person that Scottish law, (and the SNP), considers, “One of the Sovereign People of Scotland”.

      That factor, in itself, is often enough to convert them from feeling just another, humble, “British”, subject of the English crown in Scotland into a proud member of, “The Sovereign People of Scotland”, defined as, “Those of any colour, creed or country of origin who are mainly resident in Scotland and who are registered to vote in Scottish elections”.

      Failing which they are very soon about to find themselves suffering exactly the same United Kingdom Government economic discrimination and legal sanctions they voted for the Establishment to impose upon native born Scots in the recent referendum and General Election.

      In which circumstance they have three personal choices they can make as British persons living in Scotland :-

      (a), Feel they are now one of the people of Scotland and become independence supporters.

      (b), return to live in England where EVEL applies and remain British.

      (d), idiotically remain as British subjects in Scotland and continue to blame the SNP and their Scottish ambitions for independence for their now poorer economic situation.

    235. Marga says:

      OT should have gone on last post, sorry, Rev.

    236. Bob Mack says:

      There is no “them” and ” us” in Scotland .There is only “We”. In all honesty, I can put my hand on my heart and say that only over the past three or four years have I come to understand that there is a valid case for independence.This did not make me a “tractor” prior to this.I love my country,and always have done. To instill the belief of deciding our own future was not a simple task.I consider myself intelligent in many areas,but had never focused on why we could be separate frm the rest of the U.K.

      This has come about from information,research.and reading sites like this.No doubt there are many like me and possibly many more still to be swayed to that viewpoint.
      What they require from us is a convincing arguement,and pointers to where they can find the truth for themselves.
      No doubt there will be those who will never change,but you don’t win converts to any cause by keeping them firmly outside your own narrow definitions of what makes a true patriot.
      Give them knowledge ,not ridicule or insults.

    237. Robert Peffers says:

      @john king says: 30 June, 2015 at 6:02 am:

      “The only flaw with that argument Joe is that you assume the Scots who voted yes would do so again under a ruling that non Scots would not be allowed a vote,

      I’ll tell you who wouldn’t vote yes under those conditions, ME,
      we go together OR NOT AT ALL!”

      Great post, John, and exactly my own feelings too.
      We all go together as the sovereign people of Scotland or we don’t go. Why bother becoming independent if we are remaining the same as what we despise?

    238. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Dorothy Devine at 8.40

      Marvelous piece

      When is the West going to admit that the US/UK axis is the axis of evil?
      When will it say sorry? Is there anyway Scotland can say “sorry – not in our name” ?

      There is photograph burned into my head. I used it in one of the Saltire newspapers I put together for Argyll and Bute SNP. It is of a line of dead Iraqi children on the floor of a shed in Bahghad.

      I really,really, really hate the bastards that did this

    239. Nana Smith says:

      O/T

      Scotgov wants to know what the EU means to you.

      http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/newsandmediacentre/91022.aspx

    240. Snode1965 says:

      Reaching out to No voters.
      IMO the majority of No votes were due to risk aversion. Concerns over their jobs, mortgage rates etc were very real to these folks. Therefore a “silent” vote was the easiest option for many. Yes perhaps they felt a little guilt voting against their country or the realisation of their insular Thatcherite perspective.
      How do we change these voters to the Yes side? I have no idea….but I imagine life will have to get an awful lot worse for all of us, before they even consider it.

    241. Petra says:

      @ Nana Smith says at 11:59 am ”No doubt that (VAT) went against us as well. We seem to pay for everything in this union.”

      Nana Police Scotland are losing out on £23m every year. This is the equivalent of employing 680 police officers and of course this loss has become even more important in light of forthcoming cuts as three quarters of their budget relates to employing personnel.

      When we had 8 forces in Scotland previously they were exempt from VAT however now that the Scottish Police Authority and Police Scotland form a single force they are being forced to pay VAT. Not one of the 43 forces in England and Wales have to pay it.

      When this anomaly has been put to the Treasury they say it’s because Police Scotland and the Scottish Fire and Rescue Services (£10m VAT loss) are now part of a central government organisation. However the Police Service of Northern Ireland don’t pay VAT and neither does the National Crime Agency.

      Unison say that the Scottish Government knew that if they reformed the services, to become a single force, they would lost VAT exemption, as per a letter to Holyrood from former pensions minister David Gauke (2012).

      No matter the case it seems to me that the Scots are being booted up the er*e, ONCE AGAIN.

    242. Petra says:

      Scotland Bill now being discussed in the Commons. Murray starts off ………..talking as though he is speaking for ALL Scots. Cracks me up.

    243. Wp says:

      Proud Cybernat, sadly most no voters know that’s what they voted for and are happy with it. Thankfully the tide is changing. Once Yes has a majority (might even be that already) it can only go one way.

    244. ronnie anderson says:

      @ Robert Peffers 10.23. you put the tin lid on that, ya auld pedant you,only in the nicest possible way lol.

      Some people have ah information intolerance level,ave a long wie tae go Robert keep on keeping on.

    245. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 30 June, 2015 at 7:51 am:

      ” … UDI is the government telling the people what to do. A referendum is the people telling the government what to do.”

      No Macart it is not. UDI is exactly what those initial letters say it is, “A Unilateral Declaration of Independence”, and that word, “Unilateral”, is defined as – adj– involving one only of several parties ; not reciprocal.

      It has nothing to do with whether it is legal, illegal, or with or without a mandate from the electorate. It is quite simple one political party declaring independence.

      In Scotland there are several independence supporting parties and even, at least, two of the unionist parties are pseudo-home rule parties.

      The facts are plain – under Scotland’s independent legal system the people of Scotland are sovereign. That being so, when the Sovereign People of Scotland democratically elect a person to represent them in anything, they delegate their sovereignty for that elected person to exercise on their behalf.

      In the rest of the United Kingdom the legal situation is quite different in that within a, “Constitutional Monarchy”, the Monarchy, while remaining sovereign, gave away their sovereign powers to the elected parliament to exercise on behalf of the Monarchy.

      There are thus the implications that if the sovereign people of Scotland either demand a certain action of their elected representatives, or if the elected representatives run on any particular manifesto promise, then as sovereign people they have mandated the persons they elected to legally take certain actions.

      So a Scottish government with a majority mandate to take a certain action do so legally under the independent law of Scotland. The present problem is that the present majority SNP government at Holyrood did not foresee needing a specific mandate for as they did not expect such a landslide result.

      The same goes for the majority of SNP MPs at Westminster – even Alex Salmond was surprised at the actual size of the SNP GE results.

      All that is required now is either or both of the Holyrood or Westminster contingent to get a specific mandate to dissolve the Treaty of Union, (or at least the shared parliament part of it), for it to be a legal divorce.

      Note that a, “United Kingdom”, legally only concerns the joint royal realm – and parliaments are not royal realms.

    246. Macart says:

      @ Robert Peffers

      What Ronnie said. 😀

    247. Stoker says:

      @ Dorothy Devine (8.40am) and @ Dave McEwan Hill (12.20pm).

      With you both all the way on those posts, very well said.

      And Dave, Scotland can say sorry simply by doing what we’re doing,
      just keep sending representatives to Warminster who will never ever support such barbaric actions.

      We in the Independence movement have absolutely NOTHING to be sorry about but those who support Unionist parties, on the other hand, should be begging for forgiveness until the day they die.

      I often wonder how they’d feel if the same atrocities were visited upon their very own children. They didn’t seem to like it when the IRA were running around giving “the Brits” a taste of their own medicine, albeit on a far smaller scale.

      BTW, before some numbnuts attempts to contort anything i’ve just said, let me make one thing absolutely clear, i do not in any way support or condone the barbaric actions of ANYONE who thinks randomly killing innocent people is the answer to anything.

    248. Jack Murphy says:

      Here’s a link to the Commons Live Scotland Bill.
      As I post this Ian Murray,the sole Labour MP in Scotland is addressing the House over the Despatch Box on behalf of Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition. 13:03.
      Just scroll back for earlier contributions.
      http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/b7839ecf-20e2-445a-9d1d-426c49de986f

    249. Les Wilson says:

      Just want to say something about the EU Greece issue.

      This is actually something we should keep a real eye on. Not because we are financiers of these but it is showing an underbelly of the EU, which is not very good, if not decidedly nasty.

      America and the EU were on collusion to get Greece into the EU for political reasons, not for financial reasons. Indeed it appears, and is widely reported that Goldman Sachs fiddled the Greece financial figures to get them admitted to the “club”

      Now they have literally destroyed Greece financially, while knowing full well that Greece was not as financially strong as they made out, but was made to look as if they were to suit the EU and American political agenda.

      While Scotland is no Greece, and has many financial strengths, thus a Greece scenario would almost certainly not happen here with the EU. However, this does show just how morally corrupt they can be.

      All of this has happened due to the EU and their proxies fiddling the books of Greece for their own purposes. They then blame the Greeks for this debacle which is shameful.

      It makes me reconsider if I actually want to become a part of it, this is a shining example of why.

      I say this with due consideration over these events, and shake my head in sorry for the Greeks, they have been part of a bigger plan, and are paying way over the price.

      My solidarity is with them, but take a dim view of the EU over this. Maybe we should think of this and consider some other way to continue trade with the EU, but not the political connections.

    250. galamcennalath says:

      Wp says:

      “… sadly most no voters know that’s what they voted for and are happy with it.”

      I believe your are literally correct, around half of the 55% will never drop their BritNat identity. They will never be converted.

      “Thankfully the tide is changing. Once Yes has a majority (might even be that already) it can only go one way.”

      Yes, it is inevitable, the way WM is behaving!

      I think it is very important that we remain inclusive. Although some NOs will never be convinced or happy with independence, we need to ensure they don’t fell like aliens.

    251. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Oh, thanks to your good self I’m well aware of the significance of popular sovereignty. 😀

      I see it as basically a timing issue Robert. They need to ask the electorates permission first and as you say even the SNP didn’t foresee the scale of their electoral success at the GE and so at next opportunity of asking…

      Although having said that, I’m sure that the SG/SNP also had to bear in mind the referendum result and opt for the ticket of at least attempting to convince parliament of the need for significant devolved powers first. Hold them to their referendum pledges as best possible. I suspect that bubble needed to be burst in order to leave people in no doubt as to where they stood with Westminster/establishment government. I’d say the vote just past should leave a mark on that score.

      Given recent events, do you think our representatives will be looking for that specific mandate?

    252. Bob Mack says:

      @Robert Peffers.
      I say with the utmost sincerity ,that you yourself are an educational resource which should be more widely disseminated to the people of Scotland. You frame complex matters in beautifully simple terms that even I can grasp first time.
      I do not joke about spreading your knowledge and understanding. More power to your elbow Robert.

    253. Luigi says:

      Les Wilson says:

      30 June, 2015 at 1:10 pm

      Just want to say something about the EU Greece issue.

      This is actually something we should keep a real eye on. Not because we are financiers of these but it is showing an underbelly of the EU, which is not very good, if not decidedly nasty.

      The true face is showing, profoundly anti-democratic. They do not want a Greek referendum.

      How did they manage to hide it for so long?

    254. Petra says:

      This discussion about welfare amendments (Channel 131) is really interesting such as Murray is supporting the SNP on the Scottish Parliament having the ability to introduce a totally new welfare benefit. I hope this gets passed because it means that they can, say, do something for people who have been sanctioned.

      Eilidh Whitford is more than holding her own with the Tories for example supporting carers. Go girl go.

      Graham Allen Labour says ”Scotland is pioneering the ways things should be right across the whole of the UK.”

      Sir Oliver Heard is bleating on about the SP having the power to introduce a new benefit. He says ”amendments to the bill will undermine the sanctions regime which can enforce people to turn up for appointments.”

    255. Anagach says:

      I dont understand the police and fire brigade in Scotland getting charged VAT but not those in England and Wales and NI. If its because there is only one force, could they not have had the “Police Service of Unst” and the “Police Service Rest of Scotland”, as a way to stay inside the absurd rules and to save 10s of millions in extra tax for London.

    256. Robert Peffers says:

      @Kevin Evans says: 30 June, 2015 at 9:05 am:

      “My thoughts on Greece and the anti austerity politics it is trying to introduce is that the EU and other interested nations must let Greece fail if they go in the direction of ending austerity because if it succeeds then the cats out of the bag and other nations will follow.”

      As a certain Scot, (can’t remember his name), put it, It is squeaky Bum Time for the EU no matter what it now tries to do.

      If Greece is now going to be made bankrupt by the EU then, by the EU’s very own stated raison d’être the EU itself has failed. Mind you the whole concept of a common currency among a group of countries with such very different economies was a flawed concept in the first place.

      This was highlighted in the Establishment’s daft efforts to use the shared Euro as a stick to beat the independence YES movement as the economies of the United Kingdom countries are as close to each other as makes little difference and a shared currency was, at least at the time of the union split-up and before the Scottish economy drifted upwards, as close as it is possible to get.

    257. Bob Mack says:

      Just watching again as the Scotland Bill debate is discussed and there are around 10 Unionist Members present.Come the vote,the chamber is packed.They do not even listen to the debate,but turn up to vote regardless.Just indicates that party policy comes first and everyone already knows how they will vote regardless of all peftinent points raised.
      I am not so much wearied by this,but more angered by my frustration.
      Still ultimately this very public snub to the wishes of the Scottish people will have an affect one way or the other.

    258. Robert Peffers says:

      @Scunterbunnet says: 30 June, 2015 at 11:25 am

      ” … While the idea of excluding/including voters based on place of birth is invidious, a residency restriction seems completely fair to me.

      That too is a bit iffy. What if someone, Scottish born, had been, for example, in the armed forces based in England but had left the forces and returned home to Scotland for, say, 103 weeks and was refused a vote as not being resident for 2 years?

      The law for GE & Local authority elections states that you cannot be registered to vote from more than one registered address. So if you come to live with your auntie, in order to vote in that constituency, then you lose the right to vote back where you came from. The simple and fair way to prevent fraudulent registration would be to make registration stick for, say, 5 years.

      If someone moved to another address, just for a single election, they would lose the right to return to the previous address for five years.

    259. Robert Peffers says:

      @galamcennalath says: 30 June, 2015 at 12:03 pm:

      ” … IMO the able bodied should always vote in person, postal votes should be available only on health grounds.”

      You’re not thinking this through, galamcennalath. There are many able bodied voters who are carers for a person who cannot either leave the person they care for nor take them along with them to a polling booth. This could lead, in some cases, to the loss of a vote.

      I do agree that the postal system is far too lax though.

    260. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 30 June, 2015 at 12:52 pm:

      “@ Robert Peffers 10.23. you put the tin lid on that, ya auld pedant you,only in the nicest possible way lol.

      Some people have ah information intolerance level,ave a long wie tae go Robert keep on keeping on.”

      Aye! Ronnie and ye goat them telt that wir no fir excluding fowks but fir including them. I meant to reply but got a visitor and missed the chance.

      You were correct that it would waste your time, and that of many others, who were out in all weathers speaking with people we want to include as the people of Scotland. It is significant that we have SNP members from almost all ethnic groups and from all creeds and colours. Even lots of English people now consider themselves among the people of Scotland.

    261. ronnie anderson says:

      Westminster. Scotland you can huff & puff & we will still treat you like a Clown,we,re getting nowhere fast with these Shysters.

    262. msean says:

      Shouldn’t MPs for English constituencies,even if they are Scottish by birth,be concentrating on the constituencies that they were elected to represent, rather than telling those for other constituencies that they canny dae it when they are trying to make things better.

    263. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 30 June, 2015 at 1:38 pm:

      ” … Although having said that, I’m sure that the SG/SNP also had to bear in mind the referendum result and opt for the ticket of at least attempting to convince parliament of the need for significant devolved powers first”.

      I may well be wrong but I read it as that old fox, Salmond, saw this coming but misread the size of the majority. I had thought, after the referendum defeat, that he was far too quick to resign. I had no worries about continued leadership as I knew how good the existing members were but just thought Eck was too fast resigning.

      However, it looks to me he was, (as usual), way ahead of everyone and foresaw the GE returning a significant number of SNP and perhaps other Scottish independence members from other parties. He said in an interview, (with a link upthread), he felt that a batch of new young MPs at Westminster would benefit from an Auld Heid to guide them. Looks like he was right,

      Then we had Nicola saying that she wouldn’t rule out another referendum but it was up to the people to give the SNP/SG a mandate. There are two ways to do that and one is for the SNP to write it into a manifesto and the other is for the sovereign people of Scotland to demand they do so.

      So it could be that the Westminster contingent are quite happy to suffer the jeers and defeats at the hands of the Establishment if it builds up to a demand for a manifesto pledge of another referendum. Which is where we activists come in. Remember that each card carrying member has the right to attend their local branch and propose such a pledge. If it is seconded then it has to at least considered but could be amended or opposed by the branch but at least has to be minuted and considered.

      Another way is by petition on or off line or both.

      Weel done Oor Andy a win in straight sets, (in a temperature of 41°. That’s torture for a Scot and the almost unknown opponent was no mean Tennis player too.

    264. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 30 June, 2015 at 5:17 pm:

      “Westminster. Scotland you can huff & puff & we will still treat you like a Clown,we,re getting nowhere fast with these Shysters”

      Naw! Ronnie, this is politics and often things are not what they seem. I think the Scots at Westminster just have to turn up and oppose the few Unionist numpties that can be bothered to turn up in the chamber. Just read back through the comments on here and you will see that everyone sees the other MPs from Scotland as exactly what they really are. They also see the three of them cosying up together and even, what laughingly thinks itself as the opposition to the Westminster government is uniting with the Westminster government’s Mundell to bash the Scots Members and hence making themselves, and their parties look very much anti-Scottish. Far more anti-Scottish than just anti-SNP.

      If anyone, with even half a brain, cannot see them as very much anti-Scottish then there is no chance that half-brained person is other than also anti-Scottish and pro Tory..

      Watching the performance of Mundell, Carmichael and Murray anyone can see they are far more anti-Scottish than they are just anti-SNP or even anti-independence.

      Those three are probably doing more to convince former NO voters to vote for independence that the rest of us put together.

    265. Macart says:

      @Robert Peffers

      I think you’re spot on about Alex. I reckon he may have got his sums wrong on the end result, but fully expected a good one regardless. As for the results of the past few days debating/voting, he nailed that as far back as the Paxman interview on election night.

      On the mechanics of your second option, the people calling upon the government. Much like the 2.5mil petition in the fifties, only delivered to the right parliament building this time? 😉

      Well done Andy Murray right enough. I’d near forgot about Wimbledon altogether.

    266. Petra says:

      @ Robert Peffers says at 4:38 pm ”The law for GE & Local authority elections states that you cannot be registered to vote from more than one registered address. So if you come to live with your auntie, in order to vote in that constituency, then you lose the right to vote back where you came from. The simple and fair way to prevent fraudulent registration would be to make registration stick for, say, 5 years. If someone moved to another address, just for a single election, they would lose the right to return to the previous address for five years.”

      Robert I’m sure that I’ve read (somewhere) that rUK students could vote in the Scottish Referendum and continue to hold onto their voting rights at their address / s in England, N Ireland or Wales.

      People living in rUK who have a holiday home in Scotland could use that address to vote in the Referendum that is if they used it for more than 2/3 weekends in the year.

    267. majestic12 says:

      @Dorothy, Dave et al who have mentioned international murder on a massive scale

      We don’t need Trident or any other nuclear armaments to get what we want. Nobody would dare use them. The West has been much cleverer than that.

      Our very own WMD is the radicalisation of Islam. It started nearly 100 years ago when Britain organised and financed the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt under Hassan al Bana. From there we and the US and France have spread wide tentacles, most recently in creating the Taliban, al-Qaeda (which never has existed as a group, just an idea), and the consequent growth of other offshoots such as Jabat al-Nusra and Boko Haram. And now Daesh, which was in existence as long ago as 2001when they beheaded 20 Lebanese soldiers on the Syrian border.

      The evil that has been created and honed by our own governments is almost inexpressible. It all seems to be going to plan, notwithstanding the political platitudes and heartfelt handwringing. It disgusts me. What do you think the relatives of the Brits killed in Tunisia would feel if they knew just how complicit our government has been in creating such an evil ideology that it could engulf the world in another global conflict, and which probably led to their relatives being massacred? And all for access to resources and geopolitical advantage over Russia and China. If young Moslems knew all this, do you think they’d be so quick to sign up? It begs the question, these imams who allegedly turn young minds, do they know for whom they really
      proselytise?

      If you haven’t clicked on the link I provided earlier in this thread, please do so, and google General Wesley Clark(e), the retired American soldier who ran for President on a peace ticket and who blew the whistle on the the whole scam called The Arab Spring. Needless to say he didn’t get anywhere.

      Not in my name, I say, and not in Scotland’s name either, I am sure. We MUST get out of this rotten so-called United Kingdom. Sorry, folks, for the rant, but I feel really strongly about this. While we debate nationalist topics, internationally the world is convulsing and truly heading for the abyss indeed.

      ————————————————————–

      Re the postal voting, if it was rigged, and there’s reasonable circumstantial evidence to suggest it could have been, then we must make sure that further opportunities are denied. I therefore agree with others above that physical polling should be the norm, and that a postal vote should only be issued on a “need” basis. It should not be beyond the wit of the Scottish Government to devise such a protocol.

      As for the Electoral Commission, can we get rid of it, and replace it with a Scottish election/referendum oversight body? Anyone know if we have, or can demand, the power to do that?

    268. Petra says:

      @ majestic12 says at 8:17

      Thanks for that information majestic12. Very interesting.

      I’m sure that some of the relatives who lost their loved ones in Tunisia will be aware, to some extent, of the part that Westminster (at least) has played in creating this evil and causing absolute misery and havoc in many parts of the World. No doubt this will make it even more difficult for them to come to terms with their heartbreak.

      What really gets to me are scenes, such as, of Theresa May laying flowers with such a sad look on her face and then berating the perpetrators. I just wonder how these people can live with themselves: sleep at night?

      They’ve let the genie out of the bottle and I can’t see it ever being returned to that bottle now.

    269. Rock says:

      Brian Doonthetoon,

      “If you have a problem with Robert Peffers’ posts, then you should argue why he is wrong – play the ball, not the man.”

      I am arguing against his pedantry, and yours and his other sycophants’ by association.

      I don’t give a damn about him personally, except that he made a racist comment on this site which he has never apologised for.

      UDI is out of the question, no matter what the treaty of union and the laws of the last three hundred years state.

      Robert Peffers’ regular pedantry on the issue is therefore utterly boring and useless. It has a value of zero.

      Can Robert Peffers name one SNP politician who has said since 2007 that UDI could be used for independence?

      The word UDI must have been specifically mentioned.

      If not, he should shut up once and for all on the issue of UDI.

      The Rev., and many others more knowledgeable than Robert Peffers, have argued on more than one occassion that UDI would be utter madness.

    270. CameronB Brodie says:

      ronnie anderson @ 6:35pm.
      Remind me to get Paula to give you a kiss. 😉

    271. Fred says:

      @ Majestic, good post, America is regarded in the Middle East as the Young Fox, Britain as the Old Fox, the elder taught the younger, including the aerial gassing of civilians in Iraq a centuty ago.

      Ever the pioneer in these matters, the Old Fox initiated the world’s first terror bombardment of civilians when British troops assaulted Copenhagen using Congreve Rockets in 1807.

    272. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      PROUD PEDANT!

      No, I am PROUD PEDANT!

      I am also PROUD PEDANT!

      I feel a badge coming on…

    273. Paula Rose says:

      @ Brian Doonthetoon

      As if it were printed in a stick of rock perchance?

    274. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Never thought of that, Paula Rose.

      Got my background though. You may see them on Saturday, if you’re claiming a bum locale in a charabanc or choo-choo to Holyrood.



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