stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Summer cleaning

Posted on August 07, 2018 by

Scottish politics is still resolutely on holiday, but in response to an enquiry from Prof. Sir John Curtice today we noticed that we still hadn’t published a few snippets of data from our most recent Panelbase poll. So in the absence of anything else to talk about, we might as well have a wee look.

Our poll showed a strikingly large gulf in support for the EU between independence supporters and Unionists. Were there to be a second EU referendum tomorrow, Yes voters would choose remain by an enormous 36-point margin, and by well over two to one, whereas No voters were a much tighter eight points apart, with only barely over half plumping for Remain.

But even that overstates Unionists’ fondness for the European Union.

Because when asked if there should actually BE a second referendum on Brexit, Yes voters were again emphatic, with more than two-to-one favouring a second shot. But No voters, even though most of them don’t want to leave, also don’t want to vote for it – just over a third backed another EUref, with an absolute majority – 52% – opposed.

In other words, No voters want to stay in the EU, but not if it means rejecting England’s right to overrule Scottish votes. There’s something to mull over for a moment, folks.

Things got a bit more confusing for No voters over the issue of the Irish border. When asked for the best solution to the problem, they were almost exactly of the same mind as Yes voters, with “No Brexit” being comfortably the most popular option (followed, slightly disturbingly, by Don’t Know).

But No voters were less than half as likely as Yes voters to back a united Ireland, and more willing to see various kinds of borders erected.

And finally to some of the most confused people in Britain:

One in seven No voters were willing to endure Scottish independence if it meant getting out of the EU, with slightly over the same number again being prepared to at least consider it. Which is weird, since they currently ARE getting out of the EU as part of the UK, but clearly it’s so important to them that they’d sacrifice the UK for it if they had to.

(The other part of the confusion is largely our fault, to be fair. The question is of such a fundamentally different character to Yes voters that it’s difficult to attach much meaning to their figures. What are Yes voters replying “No” to that question actually saying?)

Make of all that what you will, readers and Prof. Sir John.

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    1. 07 08 18 12:56

      Summer cleaning | speymouth

    371 to “Summer cleaning”

    1. Corrado Mella says:

      With an absolute majority of Yes voters in favour of remaining in the EU and a fractured and confused No side on EU membership and other issues, the current independence campaign should leverage every weak and inconsistent position from the opposition to highlight that the BritNazi Establishment has clearly shown to be indecisive, incompetent, inconclusive, inept and weak on everything.

      The union has been dead for a while, and the stench of decomposition can no longer be whiffed away with frantic waving of the butcher’s apron.

      Now is the time.

      #DissolveTheUnion

    2. Albert Herring says:

      Q.17b doesn’t really make sense in a Scottish context. Presumably Scotland would be leaving the UK in order to develop its own relationship with the EU and “Brexit” would actually be “Engxit”

    3. Holly Teine says:

      I think your poll has thrown up something quite fundamental about the people being polled – and indeed the wider population as a whole. Many people, given a direct and simple question know what to do.

      General election – choose a candidate.
      Referendum – Choose A or B.

      There is no depth to either of these situations unless you want there to be (i.e. you’re particularly politically engaged and have more knowledge about the Parties other than, e.g., Conservatives are good for jobs or Labour will look after people or SNP will mitigate Westminster policies). I think what your poll questions show is that there are many people both in Scotland and throughout the UK who, for one reason or another, don’t go into the extended ramifications of a particular decision, or think about the wider issues, nor do they connect a number of questions together. Thus, you are left with a lot of answers that don’t make much sense or downright contradict each other.

      It’s like that thing where someone says a word and you reply with the first word that comes into your head. It perhaps shows something of your psyche but doesn’t necessarily make any functional sense. Instinct rather than reason.

      Basically, the UK really needs more people to start engaging their brains.

    4. galamcennalath says:

      “One in seven No voters were willing to endure Scottish independence if it meant getting out of the EU”

      Some will be confused for sure and some will be genuine.

      However, some may be folks from elsewhere in the UK who just happen to be living in Scotland. In the minds of this group their country will be leaving the EU, and that matters most to them. They won’t be attached to Scotland and quite possibly intend moving back to their own countries at some point. England (in most cases) leaving the EU is their priority and what Scotland does is less important, even though they live here. I am certain some folks will think this way.

      “What are Yes voters replying “No” to that question actually saying?”

      It might be the “price of Brexit” bit which causes problems. Those who are totally against Brexit don’t have a price to make it happen. They just don’t want it. The “No” could be interpreted as saying nothing is worth making Brexit happen (even if paradoxically it’s something you do want)!

    5. “The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!”

      Oops, the Chequer’s version of Brexit has broken, so now, “The flagon with the dragon has the pellet with the poison, the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true”.
      Confusing isn’t it?
      In Indyref 2, the Scots who favour leaving or remaining within the EU have a clear cut choice to make.
      Well, what was that again? “The Pestle with the dragon has the poison brew…ugh?”

      Is your desire for Self Determination as a given more immediate than your conviction to Leave the EU. Do you see Scotland as an Independent Nation, where the Scottish people make their own decisions about future trade, economic, and political relationships with the EU and the rest of the World?
      Chicken egg, or egg chicken?

    6. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      My quick reaction is that the 13% of former “no” voters and the 18% of former “yes” voters essentially represent the hardline isolationists on both sides. Mention “Brexit” in any context to these people and it’s like ringing Pavlov’s bell. Their eyes glaze over and reason flies out of the window.

      Especially the latter, it would seem.

    7. Effijy says:

      I voted Yes in the Indy Ref, obviously, and I voted Remain in the EU, but I’m desperate for the English to get their straight off the cliff wish and Brexit.

      Its the best option for freeing my country, Scotland.

      I know I shouldn’t but I look forward to meeting the English people who voted Brexit when inflation and interest rates are crippling them and they can’t afford EU produce in the supermarket.

      The Friendly Bankers will reposes their homes, they will struggle to keep in work, and foreign holidays a thing of the past for many.

      Reap what you sow England.

    8. Muscleguy says:

      I sometimes wonder how much Westminster disfunction and incompetence would make even some No voters consider we would be better off running our own affairs.

      To my No voting wife’s credit her move towards Yes was partly the Brexit result and partly positive towards the SNP’s policies and bills about poverty menstruating provision and support for NI women to be treated for free in Scottish NHS for abortions.

      I think I will point out to her the two Glasgow Housing Corps who want to flip the tenancies of refugees to Scottish Assured tenancies to forestall Serco who leases the properties from them from evicting the tenants.

      If this doesn’t show that Scottish civil society is far more liberal and humane than Westminster (Serco being effectively a UKGov agency) then I don’t know what is. I am most encouraged by their intended actions. It makes me proud to be Scottish.

    9. Clootie says:

      …or, I would rather gouge my own eyes out that support Scottish Independence…does the cover it?

    10. Robert Louis says:

      Seriously O/T, but important.

      I just read the FM’s statement on her meeting with the lying English Tory prime minister today. Somewhat oddly, the FM did not mention Scotland once, nor did she mention the fact that Scotland does not want brexit and voted by a massive majority against it.

      Do those things no longer matter to the FM? Are we to assume that the SNP leadership have just decided to stop objecting to brexit? Is it now just a fait accompli? Will we even get an independence referendum? Most importantly, are indy supporters being effectively ‘strung along’?

      The FM’s job is to get Scotland out of Brexit, not advise the Tories how to do it. Wrong priorities I think.

      Serious questions.

    11. Macart says:

      Ah yes, the ‘I’d rather be reduced to cannibalism than consider independence’ problem. They might just get their wish if they’re not careful.

    12. Derick fae Yell says:

      30% of 2014 Yes Voters want to leave the EU is the stand out finding there.

      Add that to the Curtice finding that 63% of Scottish voters would accept free movement in exchange for free trade (which is basically the EEA)http://natcen.ac.uk/our-research/research/just-15-months-to-go-what-scotland-is-making-of-brexit/

      Conclusion. Wait for it.

      EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.

    13. Ross says:

      It’s a shame the last question is so poorly worded. No wonder you get a confused response.

      It’s a question that only works for rUK voters.

    14. galamcennalath says:

      Robert Louis says:

      The FM’s job is to get Scotland out of Brexit, not advise the Tories how to do it. Wrong priorities I think.

      I think Nicola is concerned, as I too have been for months now, that we might be heading for a Blind Brexit (to coin that new, but accurate phase).

      If TMay accepts a backstop on Ireland, and there is a fudged statement on the future relationship, then the Withdrawal Agreement can be signed and a transition period won. Brexit will happen and we might not have a clue what the final deal will be because it could be years away.

      We won’t have a short term IndyRef2 is we stay in the single market. If it looks like going tits up then we can have IndyRef2.

      BUT what does Nicola do if we are headed for a Blind Brexit?

      If that is her concern, then as I say, I certainly share it!

      This scenario very much suits the Tories. Get Brexit and avoid making future relationship decisions which will provoke IndyRef2.

    15. Schrodingers cat says:

      @derick fae ýell

      100% agree

    16. Macart says:

      @ Robert Louis

      No. The FM’s eye is very much on both process and prize, I’d say. The prompt from the FM is for clarity. A clear and unambiguous statement from the Prime Minister that such and such is the outcome of Brexit negotiations.

      Such clarity on positions is what the First Minister pledged to Scotland’s electorate before calling a referendum. That we’d know with some degree of certainty what the deal, if any, was.

    17. Johnny says:

      Galamcennelath @ 1:18pm:

      I think you are correct that this is what the Tories want.

      However, I am not sure it is what the EU Commission or the other bodies want UNLESS it is accompanied by some agreement that the four freedoms will remain in place permanently. What I mean by this is that I don’t think the European negotiators are too interested in just having a transition period only to have all the nonsense and refusals to sign up to the four freedoms kick in again – or, in short, prolong the agony for no good reason.

    18. ScottieDog says:

      “EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.”

      Agree. Takes all this “you’d have to join the euro” lying pish, away aswell.

    19. Auld Rock says:

      Hi Robert Louis, so The Blessed Theresa thinks she holds all the Aces but always remember the words of ‘Black Hearted Alaska Joe’ once said in a poker game, “A loaded and cocked Colt 45 (Indy Ref 2) pointing at your heart Trumps 4 Aces.” Our FM has to walk a very path as she tries to keep ‘YES’ voters on side but more importantly to convert as many ‘NO’ voters as possible to our cause. I sure as hell would not like to be in Nicola’s high-heels at the moment but so far she is achieving a brilliant balancing act. You know, slowly, slowly catchee monkey, so have patience and most importantly we must All stayed united – NO FACTIONS – UNITY IS STRENGTH.

    20. galamcennalath says:

      Johnny says:

      I don’t think the European negotiators are too interested in just having a transition period only to have all the nonsense and refusals to sign up to the four freedoms kick in again

      Not so much the ‘four freedoms’ because they are only relevant for full single market access. My guess is the Tories are more likely to eventually settle for Canada-plus-a-bit.

      That said, I agree that a Blind Brexit is only putting off decision time. That is my worry.

      However, the EU are faced with ongoing chaos in London and a No Deal Brexit which will do huge damage to them too. If TMay is replaced then it’s Tory grassroots who make the choice and the EU know she might be the best on offer, all the alternatives are much worse. The EU may want to keep TMay. Also, they may want to prevent a fall of government.

      So the EU might go along with a fudged further relationship statement and let a Blind Brexit occur. From their perspective this might be the best option in the short term.

    21. Giving Goose says:

      For (Scottish Independence) No voters there is still a great deal of trust, and attachment to, the idea of Great Britain. When these No voters look at GB’s stock, it’s all about Empire, Global Power, Great Power, Standing Alone, 1940, Captains of Industry & Commerce at the helm of SS Britannia etc.

      By comparison in, their eyes, Scotland comes up short.

      The trappings of Great Power status and the myth of Britannia are still strong and obviously continue to cast a strong spell and hold a great attraction. It’s clinging to the brand.

      In the light of Brexit, try to get Leave supporters to talk about details – trade deals, economics etc and they simply cannot. Mention a Spitfire, Dunkirk and imagined past glories and you’ll get broad brush statements regurgitated from the mouth of Boris Johnson, or the pages of the Daily Mail, supporting Blighty being freed from the shackles of the EU and something about those ungrateful French and ****** Germans.

      What actually needs to happen, to shake everyone to their senses, is for a (UK level) national humiliation to unfold. Scottish No and Leave voters need to be able to watch, in glorious HD, the economic and political mess unfold in front of their eyes. Brexit needs to be painful to wake these Scottish voters out of their blinkered bubble world.

    22. Derick fae Yell says:

      ScottieDog at 1:52 pm

      ““EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.”

      Agree. Takes all this “you’d have to join the euro” lying pish, away aswell.”

      It also defangs the ‘Spanish Veto’ scare. They’re not an EFTA member.

      And:
      – the ‘deficit’ criterion scare. EFTA has no requirement for any particular item
      – the ‘have to join the Common Fisheries Policy’ scare. Poor old Union-Bertie Armstrong would have no traction for his tosh
      – partly the ‘hard border’ at Gretna scare. Because the Customs Union position is adjustable to wherever rUK ends up, if we chose to do that
      – the ‘you’ll be out of the EU for years’ scare. It’s irrelevant if we use the EFTA route to the single market, which is potentially quick and simple.

    23. Vestas says:

      Many of you arguing about Brexit etc might be missing a very basic point.

      Brexit cannot continue (on financial grounds) if England loses control of Scotland. Simple as that.

      Think the consequences of that through.

      Not pretty is it?

      This isn’t 2014 for sure, its a much darker place & a PM in office but out of power. The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

    24. Roger says:

      Maybe all it shows is that Brexit and indy are two different issues? It’s possible to be in favour of Indy AND Brexit – or be opposed to both. Some want Scotland out of all unions, some want Scotland out of the UK only, some want Scotland in all unions, and some want Scotland in the UK but out of the EU…?

      BTW, there was a song about QEII back in the 1950s (sung to the air of the Sash) against the queen being Elizabeth the Second – there was a line in it ‘How can there be a second Liz, when the first one’s never been?’, does anybody know what the song was called?

    25. vlad (not that one) says:

      @Robert Louis
      My take on the statement: May is attempting to drag it out forever against the fast approaching deadline. Nicola is ever so gently turning the thumbscrew.

    26. Johnny says:

      Gala @ 2:01pm:

      Perhaps.

      But I also think the EU needs to ‘nip it in the bud’. There is some degree to which things take time but the reality is that the civil service and Westminster must know by now what the various alternatives are and which they prefer. All else is just timewasting and being afraid to make a transparent decision. So do the EU let them keep messing about even though they know the options?

      As to a Canada-type deal, I think it’s a messy one in that you can import a certain amount of a good into the EU but then mega-tariffs get slapped on as if you were a ‘third country’, which you are really (and, IIRC, services aren’t included). Not that you were raising that as a point (just giving your opinion that that’s what the Tories want) but I hope people who have a reason to know come to understand what a Canada-type deal means.

    27. Auld Rock says:

      Roger, the title of the song was, “The Scottish Breakaway” and I think I still have a old vinyl copy.

    28. Dan Huil says:

      I’ve said it before but I still think it would be wise in the run-up to indyref2 for the SNP to guarantee a referendum on an independent Scotland’s future relationship with the EU within the first five years of independence.

    29. ScottieDog says:

      @Derick fae Yell
      I would also add that although complying with the four freedoms, there could be a ‘temporary measure’ of capital controls as we set up a new currency. That precedent was set by Iceland for almost a decade following the financial crisis.

    30. Proud Cybernat says:

      Blind Brexit?

      Is that the one where you’re blind-folded and don’t actually see the hard concrete coming towards you as you topple over the cliff-edge?

      Doesn’t make much difference if it’s ‘blind’ or not–there’s still gonna be one helluva splat at the end of it.

      Both UKGov & ScotGov agree on that much. So, as soon as Brexit becomes a fait accompli or irrevocable, it doesn’t really matter how long it will take for the splat to happen–it’s still gonna happen.

      Surely THAT is the key point? And at that moment, the FM should pull the IR2 trigger.

    31. starlaw says:

      roger 2.28

      The Scottish Breakaway. I’m sure it was called

    32. Maria F says:

      I have to admit that I am surprised at how high the percentage of Yes voters that actually want another referendum on brexit is. This is something I struggle to understand from a democratic, moral and also a logic point of view.

      Let’s look at if from a logic point of view:

      Scotland voted to remain in the EU by 62%. The result was very clear and it is therefore hard to imagine, particularly in the light of the shenanigans of the tories with the negotiations and the theft of power from our Parliament, that it would change in sufficient measure to become the opposite and all the sudden Scotland support and endorse brexit. Such result would of course be the ideal scenario for the britnats, because it would be the only one that truly legitimises brexit in the context of the UK. As we stand, the electorate of Scotland has not endorsed brexit and our MSPs and MPs have not given consent for the UK to be taken out of the EU. At all effects, Scotland is being dragged undemocratically out of the EU against will and without its consent. This could only be morally justified if it is done for the betterment of Scotland: the brexit impact reports and the theft of our devolved powers proves this is not the case at all.

      I may be wrong on this, but I think there actually might be an actual increase in the support for the EU in Scotland. Doing the calculations however, if England and Wales were to keep the same proportion of vote as they did in the last ref, that would not make any difference to the outcome whatsoever. In fact, keeping the same turnout as last June 2016, if the vote in England does not change, the entire electorate of Scotland could vote against brexit and the outcome would not change either. A second EU vote so soon will be a pointless exercise for Scotland.

      The proportion of the electorate in Wales is very small so it is realistically, only the vote of England what might vary in sufficient amount to change the outcome of the referendum. And therefore it is the vote of England what all those unionist politicians talking about this “people’s vote ” are really desperately after.

      So the logic asks:
      if all what you are interested in is the vote in England, why don’t you just call the vote in England? The only situation where such “UK wide” vote makes sense at all is if they expect that the vote in England will be really, really close and they hope the vote in Scotland may actually be enough to tilt it over.

      So basically, what these politicians are after is a repeat of the first referendum: to frustrate the democratic will of one of the equal partners of the UK with the democratic will of the other. This brings us to the moral question: how is it justifiable to maintain a union where you are constantly throwing the democratic will and interests of a partner against the other? And when is this going to stop? Where are the limits of this?

      One of the unintended consequences of the EU referendum is that it has opened the pandora box and exposed the fundamental political and social differences between Scotland and England. It is my view that those differences are now pretty much irreconcilable and that is why these unionist politicians are so desperate to put the beast back in the pandora box and quickly close the lid again with that second EU ref, in the hope that England would accept such outcome (I personally doubt it will).

      Another thing that I feel the unionist politicians are desperate to cover up is the fact that Scotland has not really given consent for brexit. So if they were now to run another referendum to validate “the brexit deal”, should the people of Scotland participate in that referendum, the unionists will be using that result as a proof that we are endorsing brexit. It is therefore in my view a way of legitimising brexit and getting Scotland’s consent for it by the back door. I can’t help by thinking this is a trap. That is why I oppose to this “people’s vote” in the strongest possible terms. By the way, I read their petition for this “People’s vote”. It just talks about “a vote”. It does not really go into a lot of detail of what they want the people to vote for, which effectively leaves them with a blank canvas to put the question they want.

      From a democratic perspective, and in light of those differences between England and Scotland and the fact that the vote of Scotland will not change the outcome, the only thing that makes actual sense logically and that will be democratic for both partners of the UK is to run the referendum in England and give the people of England and Wales the opportunity to choose between leaving the EU or remaining in the UK. But this is a question the British nationalists will never grow a backbone strong enough to ask, hence constantly distracting everybody with our independence referendum. Given the situation, it is not really Scotland, who voted for the status quo, who should be having a referendum, but England and Wales, because they are the ones that rejected the status quo.

      Coming back to Scotland and to democracy, in the EU referendum that took place in June, Scotland was denied a democratic vote and forced to vote as England’s region. Furthermore, when our vote was not in agreement with that of England, it was rejected as disposable. Scotland’s will was overruled. There is no doubt the British establishment will do exactly the same thing again if that is the only way to ensure England MPs keep control of Scotland’s assets. So I have to ask, what is the point for Scotland to take part in such vote? It will be a farce for Scotland as huge as the one in June 2016 was. The only way I would ever support such a vote is if we are offered guarantees that Scotland will not be forced to vote as England’s region and our vote will not be overruled.

    33. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh dear, here we go again, the same old hoary “big tent” nostrums still being peddled. After all this time and ongoing UKGov internal division and confusion, it’s hardly progress to still be wanting to add a weak “vassal state” compromise of our own to the mix. A compromise, moreover, for which there is no evidence whatever that it might actually appeal to anyone at all. Mere wishful thinking.

      When are we going to be spared this distractional pre-packaged indy à la carte special pleading? When is the simple message going to be heard above all the axe-grinding: it’s our future to choose in our own way, once we have the power to do it?

      The whole point of Brexit is that it reveals more starkly than anything else heretofore, in all its aspects, how the well-established interests and choices of the people of Scotland are being ridden rough-shod over by the London Establishment, and this iniquity will continue to persist until we summon the courage and resolution to throw off our chains and stand proud. Not nit-pick uselessly among ourselves about anything at all that won’t have a snowball in hell’s chance of happening unless we put first things first.

    34. Johnny says:

      Maria F @ 2:54pm:

      You raise a very good point.

      YouGov were asking recently about whether I supported a ‘referendum on the final deal’ and it was a question I admit I found very hard to answer for reasons as follows:

      i) As you point out, some want it on the basis that they see it as a way to overturn Brexit. On the face of it, this certainly does seem to want to ignore the referendum result from 2016 because….

      ii) no party has bothered to win a mandate for any such thing, yet we have some politicians who are gung-ho for it telling us that the SNP have failed to win a mandate (having won the Greens’ support, which was all that was necessary because that’s how Parliaments work) for indyref 2. They seem to to just want to circumvent the requirement to have things in manifestos and win based on them. If the Lib Dems, for instance, had done well in 2017 and were in a position to get a 2nd ref through Parliament then it’d be fair enough.

      iii) there also isn’t much time for one anyway, presuming 29 March is still Brexit day.

      iv) As you imply, the chances are that it wouldn’t change much and, in any event, Scotland would still be in a position where England decided.

      v) I don’t like the attitude generally of ‘the plebs did it wrong, so the MPs should over-rule them without having asked for a mandate to do so’. Taken to its logical level, what’s to stop them doing the same should Scotland ever vote Yes? Tie us up knots and say ‘nah, just stay cos we know what’s good for you’? If they’d ignore what English voters want, we can be sure they’d do it to Scots (because they do it already).

      On the other hand

      vi) I was tempted to say I wanted it in spite of all this because it might be the only way to protect us from whatever the Tories have planned (but that’s only true, of course, if it changes anything).

      In short, not at all easy but I think it sounds like your principles on the matter are about right. Not that you needed my approval on that point, but just wanted to add my thoughts to your well-made point 🙂

    35. Proud Cybernat says:

      The only situation where such “UK wide” vote makes sense at all is if they expect that the vote in England will be really, really close and they hope the vote in Scotland may actually be enough to tilt it over.

      And, of course, if ever such a 2nd vote ever materialised and the vote in England was still LEAVE but with a much smaller margin and the Scotland vote was enough to reverse the result in England (and overall UK) and keep England in the EU then you can bet your last Scots Poond that it would not be seen then as a “UK vote” with cries in Tory England of not allowing the tail to wag the dog. You can bet that, in those circumstances, WM would find some way to give England what England voted for.

      And if EU-Ref2 did somehow metrialise and REMAIN won it, would they then be calling for a “best of three”?

    36. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      Hi Roger.

      “The Scottish Breakaway”.

      As others have pointed out:-

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpk5FYeaDM

    37. S. Perspective says:

      With all these yeses and no’s can we even sure that all respondents knew what referendum was being discussed?

    38. galamcennalath says:

      Johnny says:

      So do the EU let them keep messing about even though they know the options?

      They shouldn’t, but they might.

      The EU might reason that this disfunctional government is only capable of doing one of two things in the short term – a No Deal (crash and burn) Brexit or a Blind Brexit. TMay might be considered incapable of making the decision that needs to be taken without being replaced by someone worse.

      So the EU might go along with a Blind Brexit and defer the big decision in the hope some sanity prevails at WM, like a general election result which results in a government able to take decisions.

      If I were TMay (heaven forbid) I’d try for a Blind Brexit, declare a glorious victory in achieving a with-deal Brexit, then call a GE in the hope of either passing on the reins or being able to dump the DUP.

      This is also the best chance to thwart IndyRef2 calls, for a while.

    39. galamcennalath says:

      @Me
      @Johnny

      ” Blind Brexit works for May because it delivers something – anything – other than no deal and means she can at least claim to have negotiated an orderly exit from the EU.

      For the country, though, it is anything but a good deal. It would mean surrendering the few negotiating cards we have left and instead relying on a piece of paper – a warmly worded political declaration between the UK government and EU27 – to secure the future. Historical precedent tells us just how poor a trade that would be.”

      http://archive.li/fly7s

    40. Craig says:

      This definitely makes for confused reading indeed, I’m impressed that Prof. John Curtis has asked you for the data, clearly he believes that your sources of information is realible.

      So, yes, I’m intrigued as to what Prof Curtis makes of this as well.

    41. Johnny says:

      Gala @ 3:37:

      Again, you *could* be right but then ‘Blind Brexit’ (at least in terms of a trade deal) was always most likely given that (despite what the Tories kept trying on) the Withdrawal Agreement had to be finalised before the trade deal. The Tories kept trying to reverse this order, but the EU negotiators don’t seem to have been having it.

      But I am also not sure that that not having a trade deal (or being clear on what kind of one they want before Brexit day either) would be quite the Indy-killer the Tories imagine (if you are right about what they envisage). All Nicola has to do is argue vehemently (based on existing governmental estimates) that all possible options (other than either being in the EU or EFTA) are a worse deal….then it doesn’t matter what the Tories eventually arrive at, unless they present either as possible.

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert Louis says: 7 August, 2018 at 12:59 pm:

      “… Seriously O/T, but important.”

      To whom do you deduce it is important to and why do you imagine it is so important?

      ” … Somewhat oddly, the FM did not mention Scotland once, nor did she mention the fact that Scotland does not want brexit and voted by a massive majority against it.”

      Oh! Dear! That’s the FM BAAAAD! Again is it?

      Some Wings commenters are all too obvious in their political leanings. So I suppose I’ll be standing accused of being disrespectful or something – again now.

      Do you perhaps not understand the FM probably realises that the vast majority of those who are likely to read, listen or watch her report already are only too well aware she would, in the first place be talking from a Scottish perspective seeing as she is, after all the First Minister of Scotland, everyone, including the dogs in the street, already knows that the majority of the people of Scotland do not want BRUKEXIT and that is the reason that a massive majority voted against it

      But still and all why miss out on any opportunity at taking a skelp at the FM/SG/SNP?

    43. galamcennalath says:

      Johnny says:

      All Nicola has to do is argue vehemently (based on existing governmental estimates) that all possible options (other than either being in the EU or EFTA) are a worse deal

      Indeed. I also think she should pile on the long list of broken promises, deceit, betrayal, WM austerity, xenophobia, and attacks on devolution. IndyRef2 should be about much more than a response to just Brexit.

    44. cirsium says:

      @Derick fae Yell, 1.11, 2.17, @Scottiedog, 1.52

      Conclusion. Wait for it.

      EFTA EEA is the big tent option that might win a referendum, and then win a Yes vote in that referendum.

      Like that conclusion.

    45. Proud Cybernat says:

      Doesn’t really matter if Brexit is hard, soft, blind, mental-as-anything-stupid – if it goes ahead in ANY form then that triggers the Power Grab on our Scots’ Parliament and that is a ‘Material Change’ right there from 2014.

    46. Robert Peffers says:

      @Macart says: 7 August, 2018 at 1:08 pm:

      … Ah yes, the ‘I’d rather be reduced to cannibalism than consider independence’ problem. They might just get their wish if they’re not careful.”

      Going by the SMSM and unionist MSM that cannibalistic future is hurtling in this direction at a rather disconcerting pace, Macart.

      Just today we have these little items:-

      UK among worst of life expectancy rises.

      Use of online pay-to-watch TV surges ahead.

      Cleaners at the Ministry of Justice and a London Council are on strike over pay saying they cannot afford to live in London.

      Cash-Strapped police officers have taken a second job with some in dire financial straits according to the Police Federation of England & Wales.

      Home equity loans may cost firms billions.

      UK House prices rise by 3.3%.

      Heatwave bonanza fails to boost sales.

      Vulnerable families face energy price rise.

      Pubs closing at a rate of 18 per week.

      Pound Sterling down -0.08%

      Police warn over no-deal Brexit.

      Fox- No-Deal most likely Brexit outcome.

    47. Robert Peffers says:

      @ScottieDog says: 7 August, 2018 at 1:52 pm:

      ” … Takes all this “you’d have to join the euro” lying pish, away aswell.”

      You have to be a total absolute moron to believe that any EU members state is forced to join the Euro. The UK itself is a founder member state of the EU and has not ever been forced to join the Euro. Neither has Sweden.

      There are a total of nine countries out of the 28 member states that have not joined in having to adopt the Euro – Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, Sweden, and the United Kingdom) are current EU members but do not use the euro.

      In any case the EU cannot force anything upon members state because every member state can veto anything – the EU has no way to enforce anything it works by consensus not compulsion.

    48. Guybrush Threepwood says:

      For many British Nationalists, the idea of ‘Britishness’ is more important to them than everything else when it comes to politics. Even NO voters who voted for remaining in the EU will always vote to retain the UK no matter what is done to Scotland. The broken promises, the treatment of Scotland and our Parliament is all acceptable to them. Deep down they know this is an unequal union but they are happy playing this junior role so long as they can wave a Union Flag.

      I know this as my own father is one of those of British Nationalists.

    49. remo says:

      The Grauniad has an article about how the farmers think we will run out of food in a year. It contains a table giving HMRC food import/export values. The whisky and salmon figures are interesting. Would these be part of an independent Scotland’s exports and money? Grudging one sentence saying that whisky and salmon are amongst the things where exports are greater than imports. Check out the values in real money. HMRC’s own figures.

      Can’t do the link thing. Can’t do the archiving thing either. Search “uk run out of food no deal brexit national farmers union”

    50. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derick fae Yell says: 7 August, 2018 at 2:17 pm:

      ” … It also defangs the ‘Spanish Veto’ scare. They’re not an EFTA member.”

      Oh! For God’s sake!

      There isn’t a Spanish veto scare and there never has been and it you do not know how to put that stupid claim to an end you sure as hell fail as grass-roots activists.

      Not only has Spain never made such a threat but the Spanish Government have categorically denied they would veto a Scottish Membership if Scotland did have to apply to join the EU.

      The guy that kicked off that idiocy was none other than José Manuel Durão Barroso who is a Portuguese politician and nothing to do with Spain. He was previously the 11th President of the European Commission that is the EC not the EU. The EC are the paid for civil servants of the EU but he always said it was his personal opinion. He was also the 115th Prime Minister of Portugal. Thus nothing to do with Spain.

      In any case it would be utterly stupid for Spain to veto an independent Scottish bid for EU membership for the Spanish Fishing fleet is the largest in Europe and their fleet relies upon access to the Scottish fishing grounds.

      Why would the Spanish government harm their biggest economic industry by vetoing out Scotland? To do so would see Scottish fishing grounds barred to EU member states including Spain.

      Look at these news reports:-

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spain-foreign-minister-alfonso-dastis-no-veto-independent-scotland-eu-membership-application-a7662531.html

      https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-wont-block-scottish-eu-membership/

      https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-membership-spain-scotland/

      Noo awa and dae yer homework and stop spreading Westminster propaganda for the unionist cause.

      Print out any or all of those articles and act like grass-roots activists.

    51. Brian Powell says:

      Robert Peffers

      I think it’s more of a ‘limp wristed bat at the FM/SG/SNP?”

    52. Cubby says:

      Guybrush threepwood @5.28

      Totally agree. British Nationalists do not care a jot for Scotland. It may be where they live but they see themselves as British and as long as they can still call themselves British that is all that matters to them. Look at the state Ni Ireland got in to but they did not care as they could still call themselves British. Most discussions I have had with Britnats ends with them saying I am British and I will remain British. Arguments/points of fact etc harm done to people in Scotland – mark them down as not interested. Stockholm syndrome is very strong in these people.

    53. Breeks says:

      OT.

      Boris Johnson, the UK’s Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs openly ridicules Muslim Women for wearing burkas, and defiantly refuses to apologise. He’s the Foreign Secretary FFS!!!

      Irreverent Rascal? Or toe curling embarrassment?

      Oh yes, I forgot, the Tories need a convincing Tweedledum to make Tweedle-Rees-Mogg look like the electable lesser of two evils for the next UK Prime Minister.

    54. One_Scot says:

      Lol, ‘Prof. Sir John Curtice’, only in the madcap world that is the UK.

      Hopefully, one day we will wake up from this nightmare.

    55. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Could almost feel the deep pain of BBC Scotland tonight when the excellent education/Exam figures came out. Made a big issue of Higher passes (which hit their highest ever level recently)which dropped from 77% to 76.8% FFS.

      Agree with Guybrush Threepwood at 5.28. We are now largely into emotional grounds in the independence campaign. Our future will be decided on the grounds of national self respect and millions/trillions/zillions/deficits discussions are worn out.

    56. John Young says:

      Does anyone know when this polling was carries out as I thought Remain in Scotland had moved from 62% to over 70%?

    57. Ian McCubbin says:

      Prof John quoted in the Courier that an independence referendum is not likely in next 5 years as Nicola Sturgeon values her job more than the country and its people.

      Fine coming from Tory sympathisor.

    58. galamcennalath says:

      @Dave McEwan Hill
      @Guybrush Threepwood

      All indications are that around half of 2014 NO voters are BritNats. Illogical attachment with a deep rooted belief system. These will be very hard nuts to crack.

      The other half voted NO for a variety of reasons … self interest, security, EU membership, safeguarding state pensions, believed in devolution, believed the Vow, genuine felt the UK was the safer option, Devil you know etc etc. …… as far as I am concerned they are all persuadable.

    59. Footsoldier says:

      @Breeks 6.49pm

      Boris Johnson, the UK’s Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs openly ridicules Muslim Women for wearing burkas.

      He did not ridicule them, speaking aloud he thought they looked like letter boxes.

      Are thoughts now to be banned and wrong thinking corrected?

    60. One_Scot says:

      ‘Prof John quoted in the Courier that an independence referendum is not likely in next 5 years as Nicola Sturgeon values her job more than the country and its people.’

      If he genuinely said that, then he is even more of an idiot than I thought he was.

    61. @Robert Peffers

      I remember,the now departed RIP, British Nationalist Charles Kennedy asking Cameron at PMQ`s to remind Scots that President of EC Junckers had warned that,

      “applicant states who want to join the European Union face a complex, difficult and drawn-out period of up to, perhaps, five years?”

      this was the day after Mr Junckers had clarified that he was referencing new East European applicants & Turkey and had absolutely no bearing on Scotland`s membership,

      Charles Kennedy must have known about Junckers clarification yet still brought this lie into to the Sacred Mother of UK Parliaments.

    62. Clootie says:

      Footsoldier7:34

      Boris didn’t ridicule them….are you kidding!
      You do know he wrote an article on it. It wasn’t to a mate in a cab.
      ?

    63. call me dave says:

      Update:

      NHS Tayside writes to MSP over payment claim
      12 minutes ago

      https://archive.is/Iq3ij

    64. Arthur thomson says:

      I just observed a ‘report’ from the BBC’s Scotland correspondent about May’s meeting with the FM. A completely meaningless ‘report’ from a half-witted mouthpiece for Westminster.

      Channel 4 reported from the Edinburgh fringe, a clear metaphor of Scotland’s fringe role in all matters British. The only positive was the FM’s body language when she shook May’s hand at the meeting. There were no sweet smiles.

      All this just reminds me of the colossal odds we are up against. And yet we are on course to win providing we hold our nerve and avoid throwing the sucker punch. That is the strategy the FM is following and rightly so.

    65. Jason Smoothpiece says:

      Footsoldier

      I think Boris Johnson and anyone else is entitled to their opinion.

      I personally feel uncomfortable when I see ladies in Burkas, I have to suffer that discomfort as the ladies are not breaking any laws by so wearing.

      However Boris is a senior government minister and god save us all a potential PM.

      He simply cannot come out with that sort of stuff.

      Sadly its like attacking poor folk muslims are an easy target for the Tories.

      Even if you don’t like the lifestyle of some people we have to live together attacking a group of folks who are different is not acceptable even if you suffer some discomfort.

    66. Marcia says:

      John Young – 7.14 pm

      1018 Scottish voters, fieldwork 21-26 June 2018

    67. schrodingers cat says:

      the spanish veto “scare” is just that, a scare story, not founded on any truth

      but it was a scare used frequently and many people believed it. aided and abetted by andrew marr, barrossa played his part but he didnt get the promised nato position that cameron had agreed to.

      derick is correct. efta/eea shoots this scare story stone dead

      scare stories are scare stories rp, i know you didnt believe them but i also know derick fae yell never believed them either

    68. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      All:

      “Boris is a senior government minister”

      No, he isn’t Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson is a backbencher as he resigned his post as Foreign Secretary following the Chequers Agreement.

      http://archive.is/jtMlf

      Foreign Secretary is now Jeremy Hunt.

      “However Boris is a senior government minister and god save us all a potential PM.”

      Potentially, and this explains his dog whistle comments around burkas aimed at getting the Far Right Neo-Fascists to support him.

      Remember he is getting in with Bannon and the Alt Right.

      https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lesterfeder/boris-johnson-steve-bannon

      “God Save the Queen and her Fascist Regime” indeed.

      🙁

    69. Brian Powell says:

      Ian McCubbin

      Does that mean the Prof backs Independence?

    70. Brian Powell says:

      One_Scot

      It would also suggest the Prof supports Independence.

    71. yesindyref2 says:

      @Brian Powell
      I felt Prof Curtice was a devo-maxer, he’s an enthusaistic sort of person anyway, but seemed more enthusiastic in his blogs when the surveys showed support positive for more powers sort of thing, and if he’s realised devo-max is a dead duck, perhaps even Devolution itself after the power grab abd conetempt shown by Westminster, logically he could move to being a YESser. But I doubt he’d do that publicly. Other previous NO-voting devo-maxers could though, and there’s a few of them around. It’s fertile ground for YES.

    72. Liz g says:

      Jason Smoothpiece @ 8.37
      Well said Jason
      My take on the Burka thing is slightly different…..
      No government should be telling anyone what they can and cannot wear.
      Full stop no exceptions
      I take this line …. not just as a woman despite the long history and the still present issues of being judged by what we wear…
      But also as a Scot who’s ancestors were banned from wearing or even owning tartan!!!
      This was done then to assimilate people and that’s what’s happening now!!
      It is for me no a religious thing,an ethnic thing, or a gender thing, although all those things are important.
      But rather it’s that Governments have no business making rules like that not in the 1700 and certainly not now…..
      It’s not what they are for and we shouldn’t put up with it.

    73. Fred says:

      Well said Liz, Boris is a tub-thumping clown who should have got hard-labour for that Bullingdon outfit! Are beards to be banned next as they hinder ID?

    74. yesindyref2 says:

      I think the don’t knows for the last 3 of the 4 tables, are very encouraging. And they also show sadly, why the call for Indy Ref 2 still has to wait.

      Seemed to me in Indy Ref 1 the move was from NO to don’t know, and then from don’t know to YES. Hopefully these tables reflect that as as a target for Indy Ref 2.

    75. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 7 August, 2018 at 7:34 pm:

      ” … Are thoughts now to be banned and wrong thinking corrected?”

      Of course thoughts are not banned for no one but the thought thinker knows what the thought was. When the though is verbally expressed it ceases to be a thought and becomes a comment.

      I’ll demonstrate that for you :-

      Guess now what I’m thinking about you and your comment!

      Now I’ll demonstrate what I think about Boris – he’s a raving idiot.

      Dit you spot the difference?

    76. Al Dossary says:

      About the only thing I would ban in so far as clothing or dress goes is the ridiculous stereotype that dictates that everyone (male) in any semi-supervisory posting or above wears as a minimum a collar and tie, or even a suit & tie. Europe, the Americas and the rest of he world get on fine with just smart, casual.

      Although I probably could be easily persuaded to ban the bowler hats so beloved of the Black Lodge and the top hats of the old etonians like the Moggster etc.

      That 300 years after the English tried to eradicate the Scottish persona we are on the cup of independance is a miracle in itself.

      The burka is to the racist xenophobes symbolic of extreme Islamic unfortunately. Which is probably why it gets such bad vibes in Britain.

      Yet here in the home of Islam that is Saudi I would estimate that less than 5% of women wear the burka. Yes they do all wear an abaya, most of the women wear a veil in public but especially amongst the younger ones it is becoming more and more common for them to just wear a headscarf with the abaya.

      I’m not getting into the whole women’s rights thing etc in the middle east (or Canada atm!) – its just an observation their dress. It’s their tradition that women dress in that way, just as 80% of Saudi males wear a thobe and ghutrah daily.

    77. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 9.57
      Thanks Fred…. I often said “ much mair bloody surveillance cameras and I’m getting a burka”… and I’m only half kidding…
      We forget that it wasn’t all that long ago most adult woman wore a head scarfs when they were out and about.
      Round about the time The Nun Story and the Sound of Music were popular movies.. there was nae issues then with those very similar garments… so as you say that clown is shit stirring (well you actually said tub thumping but I’m no as polite as you)..

    78. Daisy Walker says:

      Tartan Burkas, now there’s a thing.

      If the Burka had been invented by a man, great sonnets would have been written about him and about its use in freedom fighting. The Molotov Cocktail would have nothing on him or it.

      Imagine if you will, you were a female, living in a culture, that made owning property illegal for women, having a career, freedom of movement, the right to drive, the right to vote, the right to speak and have an opinion in public. All not allowed, for the little women.

      Instead, you can belong to a husband or a father, and express these things in the privacy of the family home, if your allowed to do so. And if you question this, your told, your such a precious little thing, and your beauty so great, that no red blooded male would be able to restrain himself from sexually assaulting you, that decency dictates you stay enclosed.

      So one day, you turn the tables, taking all of the above at face (no pun intended) value, you neatly turn the tables. You put on the Burka, and in doing so, now you can preserve your dignity and walk in the street, now no-one can judge you on your looks, no-one can see if you are amused, cheerful, angry, sad, grumpy, empathetic, bored, and the list goes on. Your opinions, even unspoken, remain cloaked. And if your opinions are not valued publicly in any event, why should anyone be upset if a person takes control of the means to keep them private.

      Studies have shown that female faces are more mobile and expressive than males, and that men deliberately try to cultivate the ‘poker face’ to keep their cards to their chest. Its a power thing.

      And the Burka, out powers them every time.

      Think if you will of the angry, middle aged, white men of last years Question Time Audience, angry at the poor, angry at foreigners, angry at womens lib, angry at Europe, angry, angry, angry. What was that tweet, ‘not one of these men would give you your ball back’.

      Then think how apoplectic the Burka makes them feel, and allow yourself a wee internal smile. Some wee wifey in the middle east out played them beautifully. Makes burning bras look thoroughly silly.

      Wouldn’t tartan burkas at the BBC protest be a great thing. Now there’s a thought.

    79. Tackety Beets says:

      Daisy Walker , you got me there …..Tartan Burkas

      I’ll make a point of bringing it into conversation next time I speak to my friends at the Mosque.

      I think it would certainly feel better & less uncomfortable for old gadgies like me.

      Tbh its extra nice seeing pink or tartan turbans.

      Is it because we feel they want to integrate or gel with our culture that makes our sub conscious trigger a more favourable feeling.

    80. Liz g says:

      Tackett Breeks @ 11.10
      Tartan is the new black…. I love it… wouldn’t it be great if it took off..
      And the bonus would be the exploding heads of the bigots…. they wouldn’t know what to do with it lol..

    81. Danny says:

      A lot of European athletes staying in the Hotel which is also where my gym is.

      I explain to them that I would rather see them win a medal rather than any BritNats.

      I also to them that the Butchers Apron is toxic in Scotland and that the thought of “God Bless Lizzie” getting played is just too much for most Scots. Hence our “Anybody but Team GB” stance.

      It can be very satisfying enlightening our European cousins on just what is happening in Scotland in 2018 regards Independence and the EU and our relationship with them from south of the border.

    82. ben madigan says:

      always said all scots nats should wear a little tartan – whatever you’ve got to hand at home, no need for major outlay!

      – scarf, socks, gloves, cap, hat, wrap, bag, belt, tie, hair ribbon etc

      if tartan is going to be the new black for burkas, headscarves, niqabs etc – our muslim ladies will be spoilt for choice of colours!
      And won’t they look nice!
      PS What a boost for our local fabric industries!

    83. manandboy says:

      FWIW. Nicola is on Theresa May’s shoulder in this run-up to Brexit day and poised to make her move for Scotland. May however knows that in this position, Nicola has the advantage as she can cover all May’s moves. So May wants Nicola to make a move, to hand the advantage to May. That is what today’s meeting in Edinburgh was all about.

      To change the analogy, May wants Nicola to pick a horse and place her bet, even though the Brexit ‘horses’ have not been officially declared (ie. including the UK’s horse, the choice of the kind of deal May wants.)

      Put simply, if Nicola makes her move for Independence before the Brexit deal between the EU and the UK is agreed and signed, then the UK Government will choose a deal which will include measures which will scupper Scotland’s move to Independence.
      But Nicola is far too savvy to fall for that one.

    84. Phronesis says:

      Excellent and disciplined journalism from the Washington Post reporting on a high profile trial of how to rob banks. Who knows where the money laundering trail will end. Shell companies, fraudulent accounts, false business returns and channeling dubious money streams into UK lobbying campaigns. Not a burqa in sight.

      ‘Paul Manafort, President Trump’s onetime campaign chairman, is on trial in federal court in Alexandria on bank and tax fraud charges. Prosecutors allege that he failed to pay taxes on millions he made from his work for a Russia-friendly Ukrainian political party, then lied to get loans when the cash stopped coming in…Earlier in the day, Rick Gates testified how he used to at times create fake invoices to submit to offshore banks to get them to wire funds to Paul Manafort to support Manafort’s lifestyle. Now he has testified he would at times use the same process–to cause banks to wire money from an account belonging to Manafort into a company controlled by Gates himself…

      After Trump’s election, Gates went to work for the committee organizing Trump’s inauguration… Gates’s former boss requested that Gates use his position in the Trump campaign to offer a series of favors to Stephen Calk, the founder and CEO of Federal Savings Bank, one of the banks that extended Manafort a loan in 2016…Rick Gates has now testified to helping Paul Manafort defraud banks while seeking loans in 2016 in a second way…Rick Gates is now testifying that he gave a bank fraudulent home insurance documents at Paul Manafort’s request, so that his boss could get a loan from Citizens Bank…Manafort owns an apartment in Trump Tower…

      Much of the prosecution’s case will hinge on its ability to connect Paul Manafort and his Ukrainian benefactors to various accounts and companies that were set up intentionally to disguise their involvement…some of the payments were for a “lobbying campaign in the U.S. and the U.K.”

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/08/07/paul-manafort-trial-day-6-live-coverage/

    85. Thepnr says:

      @manandboy

      I’m with you on that one.

    86. yesindyref2 says:

      “COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum..

      There are several techniques for the control and manipulation of a internet forum no matter what, or who is on it. We will go over each technique and demonstrate that only a minimal number of operatives can be used to eventually and effectively gain a control of a ‘uncontrolled forum.’

      Technique #1 – ‘FORUM SLIDING’

      If a very sensitive posting of a critical nature has been posted on a forum – it can be quickly removed from public view by ‘forum sliding.’ In this technique a number of unrelated posts are quietly prepositioned on the forum and allowed to ‘age.’ Each of these misdirectional forum postings can then be called upon at will to trigger a ‘forum slide.’ The second requirement is that several fake accounts exist, which can be called upon, to ensure that this technique is not exposed to the public. To trigger a ‘forum slide’ and ‘flush’ the critical post out of public view it is simply a matter of logging into each account both real and fake and then ‘replying’ to prepositined postings with a simple 1 or 2 line comment. This brings the unrelated postings to the top of the forum list, and the critical posting ‘slides’ down the front page, and quickly out of public view. Although it is difficult or impossible to censor the posting it is now lost in a sea of unrelated and unuseful postings. By this means it becomes effective to keep the readers of the forum reading unrelated and non-issue items.”

    87. Liz g says:

      Ben madigan @ 11.52
      Aye and that fool Boris would be indirectly calling for a ban on Tartan or insulting it..
      Up with that .. we will not put…
      A win win for the ladies I’d say

    88. ben madigan says:

      @manandboy who said “if Nicola makes her move for Independence before the Brexit deal between the EU and the UK is agreed and signed . . . .”.

      The brexit deal at the moment includes the Withdrawal Agreement and an outline of the future EU-UK set-up. The WA may be agreed and signed sometime before Xmas 2018 but needs to be ratified, which will take us up to march 2019 – brexit day.
      The 20-month transition/implementation period is only available if the Withdrawal Agreement is signed and ratified on time.

      March 2019 the UK will be out of the EU and will start negotiating its future partnership.

      I don’t know when our FM is going to make her move. October is rumoured but I don’t think she’ll have a much clearer picture by then. I may be wrong.

      I personally would not feel happy if Scotland were to be taken out of the EU and left at the mercy of Westminster.

      indyRef2 timing is by no means an easy call. I don’t envy Nicola her job at the moment because the fate of a nation rides on her decision.

    89. Gary says:

      To me what this shows is that the polls have low numbers and that in itself might skew the answers.

      Putting that aside though, not everyone who replied understood the question. For example, the poll was among those ‘likely to vote’ and yet one of them replied that they ‘would not vote’ so there’s that (NB it was a Naw voter)

      But on issues of borders I think that there is also the issue of your average voter wishing to be democratic and seeing that the vote IS actually respected – despite not having voted for it themselves. In addition, I think many misunderstood the figurative ‘border in the sea’ and thought it an ACTUAL border in the sea.

      Many are fed up listening to Brexit on TV, can’t say I blame em! And they have switched off and don’t actually know or understand therefore some of the proposals that have been put forward in regard to the Irish border.

      It reveals more about attitude than intent, I think. Naw voters tend to be reactionary and are in favour of Brexit with a hard Irish border, probably because they’ve always wanted a hard Irish border. But also, not every YES voter voted Remain. Yes voters aren’t a homogenous group who voted Remain, vote SNP and see themselves as left of centre.

      We need to remind ourselves that Independence supporting is an issue that EVERY political persuasion can get behind. It’s more about democracy than about a political view point…

    90. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEEx3oUuiII

      Did Boris mean ‘Niqab’ when he said ‘Burqa’?’ The Niqab just makes them look like ninja nuns, and doesn’t really arouse any particular feelings in me. The Hijab can be quite sexy. The Burqa just makes me feel sadness towards the woman.

    91. yesindyref2 says:

      @Gary
      1,018 respondents is completely standard for a poll, and gives as they say, a 3% margin of error.

    92. Fred says:

      Amongst some of the North African tribes I believe it’s the guys who cover up their coupon while the women are bare-faced! 🙂

    93. Breeks says:

      Take a step back, clear your mind, and read the comments in the thread.

      https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1026920603444502528

      No rage or frothing at the mouth, but a mature and measured demolition of the British Media and BBC.

      There’s a video too of Theresa May being jeered in Edinburgh, and you can catch a wee glimpse at the end, it isn’t a small crowd either.

      I dunno. I get a profound sense the times they are a-changing. – But not at the BBC.

    94. Danny says:

      Breeks 6.41am

      The “booing” at Treeza video.

      https://twitter.com/ladyhaja/status/1026887705505001472

    95. Cactus says:

      iUpdate due from Nicola in October 2018, excellent… of course depending on what happens in the now-time with Theresa & the Tories ‘Blind BrUKexit negotiations’, that iUpdate may come sooner than anybuddy expects.

      3 days remaining to go BBC / STV demonstrationers. 🙂

      BYOB, all tartans welcome.

    96. ScottieDog says:

      @manandboy
      “FWIW. Nicola is on Theresa May’s shoulder in this run-up to Brexit day and poised to make her move for Scotland. May however knows that in this position, Nicola has the advantage as she can cover all May’s moves. So May wants Nicola to make a move, to hand the advantage to May. That is what today’s meeting in Edinburgh was all about.”

      I was thinking along the same lines.

      I also think people need to start seeing the good ship Blighty listing badly before they will jump. At present the BBC etc are doing a pretty good job at keeping a lid on closures, job losses etc but they can’t do that forever.

      Timing is key obviously.

    97. Dorothy Devine says:

      breeks , I wonder if that tweet was made to encourage dog’s abuse to be used in a future attack of all things independent /SNP/Nicola/anyone who disagrees?

      I well remember that tearing up of the SNP manifesto and the desperate trip to the USA to find some embittered folk to denounce Scotland , the SNP and Alex Salmond over the release of a sick man with a decidedly dodgy conviction,.
      He manage to broadcast half of what a senator said about boycotting Scottish goods

    98. Dorothy Devine says:

      Happily the other part was found and there was no intention of so doing.

      Trust the SBBBC?? Never again.

      P.S dont’t know why the first bit shot off- apologies.

    99. Ghillie says:

      Daisy Walker @ 10.48 pm

      Thank you for a really interesting take on the wearing of the Burka.

      I do not find it acceptable that anyone is forced to dress in any particular way against their wishes.

      Equally, I cannot understand the vehement opposition to women wearing robes of their choice.

      I see these robes as elegant. If the women wearing them are happy then that is grand.

      As for Burkinies (sp?), that is a garment that would very much suit my own latter day sense of modesty and decency!

      Tartan Burkas?! How cosy!

      Boris Johnston is a huge embarrassment to himself. No one else could possibly be interested in the silly wee twat.

    100. Ghillie says:

      Nicola Sturgeon dominated the headlines yesterday!

      True to her word, Nicola is keeping us posted 🙂

    101. yesindyref2 says:

      So, since my brain hurts and I’m going to rest it for a week or two (likely story), I’m going to post this thing in small parts, and it’s all about “Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum”. It’s based on the old wild UseNet days or even before, so some isn’t totally relevant, but I’m sure people will be able to adapt it. Wasn’t me found it, someone I thik I remember who, posted the link weeks ago.

      The thing is this, in 10 weeks we are likely to be thrown into a short IndyRef campaign, maybe not much more than 3 months. It could of course be later next year, rather than sooner, but I have my doubts.

      So I think we need toughening up, and more aware of the techniques of misinformation and misdirection. Trolldom I guess you could say. Not to practice them, but to be able to recognise and ignore, or counter. Now, if nobody like it, tough. If the Rev doesn’t like it of course, he can ask me in his accustomed polite manner to kindly desist old chap.

      First is the Conclusion, the first part I posted last night, but will again soon.

      BE ALERT! Scotland needs Lerts.

    102. yesindyref2 says:

      ————
      CONCLUSION

      Remember these techniques are only effective if the forum participants DO NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM. Once they are aware of these techniques the operation can completely fail, and the forum can become uncontrolled. At this point other avenues must be considered such as initiating a false legal precidence to simply have the forum shut down and taken offline. This is not desirable as it then leaves the enforcement agencies unable to track the percentage of those in the population who always resist attempts for control against them. Many other techniques can be utilized and developed by the individual and as you develop further techniques of infiltration and control it is imperative to share then with HQ.
      ——————-

    103. Macart says:

      @ Nana

      A few sobering ones there Nana. Mind you, there’s little enough to find humour in these days. Although…. the booing of Mayday as she skittered from door to car bracketed by ‘burly men’ did bring a smile. I also note that Ruth came out of her hidey hole for a closed shop photo op. No meet n’ greet. No questions allowed. No accountability. Just click and run.

      ’bout right for a Tory.

      Also noted that those brave souls in PQ didn’t doorstep Mayday as they did the FM. Which given the current state of public trust they enjoy in Scotland (that being next to zero), pretty much didn’t do them any favours. Just what are they for at this point?

      Anyroads. Much appreciated Nana. 🙂

    104. Baldeagle58 says:

      Morning Nana, thanks for all the Links.

      I see that the BBC ‘Understands’ re NHS Tayside. Is that the same level of ‘Understanding’ that Jenny Marra has, and will it be capable of ‘Understanding’ the Facts as given by NHS Tayside?

      If the facts don’t match their ‘Understanding’, will we ever get to hear them anyway?

    105. Famous15 says:

      The BBC web site reports that Jenny Marra MSP (Labour) has turned 90.0000 into slap in the face £3000,000. Labour economics and denial of workers contractural rights? AND it is on the day that HS2 are reported to pay one quarter of workers over £100,000 in wages.

      Almost choked on breakfast. ‘Scottish” Daily Mail a SNP goooood story on “Robin Hood Tax” of Amazon to be diverted to ailing High Streets. ( rates)

      However Police Scotland getting it in the neck . Why is it I now feel able to walk our streets anywhere at any time and I am almost 80. I am not naive about these matters as in time past I have been attacked and in the seventies even hospitalised a couple of times. Whatever the SNP and the polis are doing wrong please keep it up!

    106. Famous15 says:

      Of course that is a typo. 300,000 ok.

    107. cearc says:

      Ah, the burka. The perfect garment for that bad-hair day when a red sock got in the wash with all your favourite clothes.

      ‘Faces should be uncovered in public’. A campaign strongly promoted by OWN (Organisation for the welfare of midgies), funded by the skin-care industry but opposed by the bridal-wear industry. Or is it an evil sassenach plot to make western Scotland uninhabitable for 6mths of the year.

    108. Luigi says:

      Famous15 says:
      8 August, 2018 at 8:48 am
      The BBC web site reports that Jenny Marra MSP (Labour) has turned 90.0000 into slap in the face £3000,000. Labour economics and denial of workers contractural rights?

      The Labour party should be taken to court over this. Surely the law has been broken in some way with all this lies and slander?

    109. Ghillie says:

      cearc @ 9.07 am 🙂

      Burkas might just be the perfect solution for getting back up the hill from the beach, through the bracken at sun down at peak midgie attack time!

    110. Derick fae Yell says:

      Manandboy

      “if Nicola makes her move for Independence before the Brexit deal between the EU and the UK is agreed and signed, then the UK Government will choose a deal which will include measures which will scupper Scotland’s move to Independence.”

      Spot on.

      Gordon McIntyre-Kemp’s recent articles on Business for Scotland make the same point. The big issue now is whether there will be clarity by March 2019. Talk of ‘Blind Brexit’ muddies the water further, if it wasn’t murky enough!

      In passing – the BBC’s contemptuous ‘Sturgeon’ rather than giving the lady her proper title of First Minister is quite revolting. Surely any open minded undecided/soft No person must wonder at that.

    111. Ghillie says:

      yesindref2trollslayer @12.13 am and @ 8.24 am

      Yes yesindyref2 !

      Thank you for providing that insight into trolling techniques.

      The more we are aware, the more we can be ready to challenge, correct and then ignore the wannabe underminers.

      Thank you from a grateful lert.

      Actually folks, this is a seriously valuable tool we all need to have.

    112. Fred says:

      Fancy, ah used tae think a Burka was a biler fur claes, the heids o Marra, Fraser & Gray should be put in wan & biled! Boris tae if a big enough model can be fund!

    113. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ghillie
      Thanks for the appreciation. I’m going to spin it out, one by one, maybe one a day, because all at once I think it loses the point. Or I lose the plot, not sure which.

      What I’ve noticed is that whenever Wings gets new publicity, it also gets new attack. Probably aimed at the new batch of readers. Hence why you get some people passing themselves off as regulars. Ooops, that’s covered by a later point 🙂

    114. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Here comes the highland iraqi
      Big fat eyes and a haram bahookie

    115. cearc says:

      DfY,

      It would be a good placard slogan for saturday.

      ‘It’s First Minister to you not Sturgeon’

    116. cearc says:

      Fred,

      Giving away your age there! The days of using a wringer in the back court, wearing a headscarf of course.

    117. Mark Fletcher says:

      Hey! Reluctant Nationalist! You have UKIP tendencies and write doggerel. Your contributions to this site are doubly unwelcome.

    118. Confused says:

      Schopenhauer might be the first troll – or it could go back to Diogenes and the old Cynic v Sophist war. This stuff is old.

      Anyway, here’s the 38 techniques

      http://www.mnei.nl/schopenhauer/38-stratagems.htm
      http://www.wendelberger.com/downloads/Schopenhauer_EN.pdf

      Wings is the frontline in an information war, so just be aware.

    119. Proud Cybernat says:

      O/T

      Why hasn’t the FM pulled the IndyRef2 trigger yet? Well, I’ve just been reading the SNP 2016 GE Manifesto and read this:

      “We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.”

      Thing is, neither of these conditions in the party’s manifesto have (yet) been met. The opinion polls do not (yet) show clear, sustained majority wanting indy and nor have we (yet) been “…taken out of the EU against our will.” That ‘material change’ has yet to occur.

      If, however, on 29th March 2019 becomes the UK’s “Independence Day” (as many Brexiteers are already claiming it to be), and the UK officially leaves the UK, THEN Scotland will have been taken out of the EU against its expressed wish. THEN the FM can legally act to fulfill the party’s manifesto pledge and set a date. But not before.

      I suspect this may be what is behind the FM’s perceived ‘hesitancy’ in naming the date for IndyRef2.

    120. Legerwood says:

      Nana says:
      8 August, 2018 at 7:07 am
      https://thoughtcontrolscotland.com/2018/08/07/labours-education-spokesman-iain-gray-tricks-the-guardian-as-higher-pass-rates-increase/
      …………………..

      The article above that you gave the link for has been removed. I wrote a comment but by the time I hit ‘post’ the article had gone possibly because the prof had realised that linking the pass rate and birth rate was not the right way to look at the results, thus the conclusion drawn from it – exam pass rate had risen – was flawed

      He did say at the end of the article that he was not sure of the numbers and how he was using them was correct. It wasn’t which was the gist of my comment.

    121. yesindyref2 says:

      @Mark Fletcher
      Indeed, and think about style in the past if you’ve noticed, and compare that to a new “name”.

    122. Proud Cybernat says:

      “..and the UK officially leaves the EU…”

    123. galamcennalath says:

      cearc says:

      wearing a headscarf of course

      It is often forgotten that in Scotland within (my) living memory, an adult woman would rarely leave the house without her head covered. Wee hats or head scarves were the norm to maintain respectability.

    124. naina tal says:

      Lookin at yon Maybot coming oot the building in Embra, ah’m comin roon tae thinkin Burkas micht hae their guid points.

    125. TD says:

      Proud Cybernat at 10.44 a.m.

      I agree with most of your post. However, when you say that the FM can “legally” act when the manifesto conditions are met, I do not agree. The FM can legally hold a referendum now. Parliament has authorised the holding of a referendum. The only issue is whether it is yet politically wise to do so. There is no law which states that a government can only do what is in its manifesto, nor is there a law which states that a government must do everything in its manifesto. These are purely political decisions.

      In making a decision on the timing of a referendum, Nicola Sturgeon has to judge when the announcement will have maximum impact and when the chances of success in the referendum are highest. I am sure we would all rather win a referendum in a year’s time than lose one now. Personally, I trust our FM to make the right judgement on that. But it is a political judgement and not a matter of law.

    126. Thepnr says:

      “Pound euro exchange rate: GBP declines after Nicola Sturgeon blasts Brexit progress” Daily and Sunday Express

      That’s the Express readers told then. Nicola BAD!

    127. Proud Cybernat says:

      In her IndyRef2 update in October, the FM should state something along the lines of:

      Should Article 50 of the EU Charter be enacted on 29th March, 2019 and the UK departs the EU taking Scotland out also against the expressed will of the people of Scotland then, in accordance with our party’s 2016 election manifesto pledge, there will be a 2nd Scottish Independence Referendum to be held on 1st June, 2019.

      Get the boot in, Nicola. And don’t ask them – tell them.

    128. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Mark and Yesindyref, you’re welcome.

    129. jfngw says:

      @naina tal

      I suspect you are more likely to see John Humphrys in a pub having a drink with someone in a burka than see the media in Scotland ever feel they need to question BrexitisBrexitMay or DarkMoneyDavidson on any subject. They merely exist to deliver the latest UK parties handout literature as gospel fact to the gullible.

    130. HandandShrimp says:

      People wearing burkas do look like letter boxes and Goths look like a Hammer Horror set having a tea break. The rules should be…

      1) People can dress as weirdly as they like.

      2) People can pass comment (especially if it is funny).

      3) People can’t tell other people what they can wear (notwithstanding uniform requirements for professions like fireman etc.)

      That obviously cuts all ways and people can’t cite religious exceptionalism if they don’t like a bill board or whatever.

      Live and let live.

      As long as Boris wasn’t rabble rousing to incite a ban on burkas then there a lot of other things he should resign for before this.

    131. Breeks says:

      Loving the banter of Theresa May being boo’d.

      “If it was Glasgow she’d need a hard hat for all the eggs, tomatoes, and Scotch pies we’d throw at her”.
      “Aye, but we’re stockpiling food for Brexit”.

      Well it made me giggle out loud.

    132. HandandShrimp says:

      I see the Guardian is running with a “Sturgeon may delay indy vote decision”. As soon as I saw the headline I thought “Oh, Severin is back”

      Sure enough it is Severin. No comments so I haven’t read it.

    133. Macart says:

      @HandandShrimp

      The FM does have them confused. 🙂

      It also appears that ‘fishing’ has become a favoured pastime with journos and the political class.

      Guess they’ll just have to wait till October then. 😎

    134. Giving Goose says:

      Re HandandShrimp says –

      Several years ago in London, a group of lady tourists, in full veils, asked me to take their group picture.

      They lined up, I pointed the camera and I called “Cheese.”

    135. Robert Peffers says:

      O/T:

      Here is just one example, taken from that twitter thread linked to on this thread, of why there are so many strange referendum, election and opinion poll results.

      This guy:- Martin Lipinski – asks this question on the twitter link posted on this thread. He is replying to those Scots who are commenting upon the Theresa May visit to Edinburgh where she gets roundly booed.

      “Yet you want to “rejoin” the EU with it’s unelected leaders. Great logic.”

      He then gets challenge on that claim of unelected leaders of the EU and retorts:-

      “When did you vote for Juncker? Or any of the others in charge? Do you even know their names? I can’t provide a positive answer to any of those questions. I’m sure you can’t either.”

      Now this exposes him for the idiot he is and he is not untypical of the types who blight Twitter with their claptrap.

      The truth being that the former Luxembourg Prime Minister, Jean-Claude Juncker, is The President of the European Commission. He is not thus the EU leader but is the EC president or leader.

      Yet Martin Lipinski, thinks that Jean-Claude Juncker is a leader of the European Parliament and he, Lipinski, then says, “and all the other leaders”, who he cannot even name and thinks no one else can either.

      The fact, instead of the fake fact, is that the entire, “European Commission”, over which Juncker presides are, “Commissioners”, (the clue is in the name). They are the paid for Civil Servants of the European Parliament. a.k.a. Paid for employees. Thus they selected and given their jobs by the elected Members of European Parliament.

      As such Juncker has absolutely no decision making powers he is commissioned to carry out the decisions made by the elected members of the European Parliament. However, like the civil servants of the Westminster Parliament, their remit is also to research and advise the European parliament and the European parliamentarians – who then decide for themselves if they take their Civil Service’s advice.

      Quite obviously Martin Lipinski doesn’t understand how the European Union works and I have no doubt also has no idea of how the EU member state Veto works and thus he votes accordingly in his unmitigated ignorance and stupidity in the belief that the EU leadership are unelected tyrants. He is your typical BR UKEXITeer.

      Incidentally, Mr Lipinski later ask the Scots Twitterers who they think will pay for their benefits if not the English taxpayers. One must wonder why such ignorant people are even allowed to be enfranchised to vote.

    136. Proud Cybernat says:

      BBC R2 News:

      “Oh, Boris is just Boris.”

      Fuck off! Adolf was just Adolf!

    137. Jack Murphy says:

      Re the Labour MSP Marra and her allegation of a “£300,000” payout by NHS Tayside.

      Jenny Marra was also well out of order and a bit spiteful in 2012

      PHARMACY MILLIONAIRES

      https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.com/news-and-analysis/pharmacists-profit-from-misery-of-addicts-says-msp/11111135.article

    138. Famous15 says:

      Jenny Marra gives a huge slap in the face to every honest citizen of Scotland,

      World War 1 was an imperial war and all the media having a violent sexual climax on how good the killing machine was is bonkers.Not in my name.

    139. Danny says:

      Robert Peffers

      Excellent post sir.

      Don’t be put off by the Bully Boy tactics of a certain individual. That guy has problems trying to fit a Scots mind into his English body.

      The majority will respect your views, so keep them coming.

      PS

      Did the Bully Boy in question apologise to you for telling you to Fuck Off the other day?

      If he hasn’t yet done so then may I suggest he rights that wrong in his next post.

    140. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links, Nana.

      In particular Brexit Reality:

      http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/expert-schools-james-obrien-on-brexit-facts/

      and Westminster / DUP and Scotlandshire:

      ……”I must be clear that this only applies to MSP’s from the Scottish Parliament and not MP’s from Westminster or AM’s from the Welsh Assembly.”

      https://universalcreditsuffer.com/2018/08/07/dwp-downgrades-msps-ability-to-help-scots-on-benefits-then-tells-them-were-on-holiday/

      ……………………………..

      Burqa:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa

    141. Bobp says:

      I registered back home in Scotland to vote yes in 2014. Back down in England i voted leave the EU ( even though a committed remainer) as i knew if Scotland voted remain this would force indy ref 2. We need our referendum before brexit is complete, or they will hold the ‘ scotch fast’for eternity.

    142. Macart says:

      @Famous 15

      Not many ways you can interpret Ms Marra’s actions. Huge numerical error, as in massive? Or misrepresentation in an attempt to mislead. Ineptitude or a cynical exercise? Either way, an action intended to cause as much public harm to an opponent as humanly possible.

      Y’know, politics as it is practised.

      Same wossiname, different day. Ms Marra may find though, that the publics’ tolerance for that kind of politics is wearing gie thin these days.

    143. Thepnr says:

      Nicola’s Dilemma?

      As far as announcing a date for a second Independence referendum goes what is the “best” Brexit outcome in the coming months?

      That one is easy to answer, no withdrawal agreement is reached with the EU and the UK leaves the EU with no deal and then guaranteed chaos for many months if not years. No problem for Nicola in calling a date then, she would call it within days of No Deal being announced and it is this scenario which would give the absolute greatest possibility of a Yes victory.

      However for these very reasons I believe that it also the least likely outcome, Westminster don’t want this and neither do the EU so some compromise outcome to keep the show on the road at least until the end of the transition period is more likely. For this to be possible the right form of wording in the agreement will have to be found over the Northern Ireland border issue. Not an easy task but not insurmountable either if both sides want to kick the can further down the road for now.

      Next up then sometime in the New Year is that the withdrawal agreement and the future framework will have to be passed both in the EU and Westminster. The EU shouldn’t be a problem as there wouldn’t have been an agreement without their backing in the first place.

      That leaves the HoC where it could go either way and Nicola has to consider both outcomes in any plans she has for a second Referendum on Independence. Let’s first assume that the HoC reject the “deal” which will need the support of the SNP to do so then we are most likely looking at a “peoples vote” and EU2 with an extension to article 50 agreed by the EU to allow the time for a vote to take place.

      This possibility is not good for the opportunity to call a Indyref2 particularly if the outcome of such a vote was to be Remain and the whole thing about leaving the EU is called off. Nicola Sturgeon would be put in a very difficult position with this outcome and a date for a future referendum could be put off indefinitely under these circumstances. Something I’m sure no one want’s to hear.

      The reality though is that such a result would also end in chaos being caused throughout the UK, not least within the Tory party itself which would break apart. It’s highly likely that the SNP would benefit from such chaos so instead of a referendum might the SNP stand on a certain General Election with Independence front and centre of it’s manifesto? A big gamble but still something that has to be considered.

      Now let’s say that the SNP abstain on the vote to accept or reject the deal and the Government win so there is no EU2, we leave the EU on 29th March and enter the transition period until Dec 2020. What would that mean for Nicola’s decision on when to call Indyref2?

      This is the so called “Blind Brexit” and that one doesn’t leave much wriggle room at all and makes for a very difficult decision from Nicola. The easy option for Nicola in this case is also to delay making that decision on Indyref2 until nearer to Dec 2020!

      This is why it’s a dilemma, so many outcomes are possible and any one could happen. We don’t even know yet what all possible outcomes are and mine are just guesses same as everyone else’s.

      Only one thing is certain and that is that there will be a 2nd Independence referendum and it will decide Scotland’s future direction. Choosing the time to get that decision right and give the best possible outcome of a Yes victory is a job for someone with the wisdom of King Solomon.

      All I believe, is that we couldn’t have a better person in place than Nicola Sturgeon for when it comes to making that decision. Guess we will all just have to be patient, for now.

    144. Dan Huil says:

      Britnat May can only offer Scotland more arrogance and ignorance as she bleats for support for her brexit from the Scottish government.

      The latest Johnson stooshie is another small example, as opposed to the massive example of the brexit boorach, of political meltdown occuring, not just within the tory party, but within England itself.

      Scotland and the FM must take advantage of England’s disarray and lethally stick the boot into this miserable union with England.

    145. Derick fae Yell says:

      schrodingers cat 7th, 8:54pm

      Thank you!

      Of course I didn’t believe the bloody ‘Spanish Veto’ scare story!

      But people did.

      What EU citizens didn’t believe, correctly, was the line in the White Paper that Scotland could just stay in the EU via A48.

      I’m rather ashamed to admit that I believed it, and spread the WP line, despite it being obviously debatable, at best. And despite it being contrary to what three successive EU Presidents, and the Commission, have said on multiple occasions. I was wrong. Must do better.

      We cannot repeat the failed strategy of 2014 if we want to win.

    146. Derick fae Yell says:

      Thepnr 1:36

      superb post. One further option.

      Use a Westminster election to obtain a mandate for a referendum in the name of a majority of Scottish MPs

      They don’t need a S30.

    147. Fred says:

      @ Cearc, watch yer Acme wringers! Made in the Calton apparently. The bilers are scarce & eagerly sought after by keepers who bile stags heids in them!

    148. frogesque says:

      To all those British Nationalists currently getting orgasmic over WW1, I give

      Liam Clancy: The Band Played Waltzing Matilda

      Can’t get a Choob linky but easily found if googled

    149. galamcennalath says:

      Thepnr says:

      Nicola’s Dilemma?

      I agree with your analysis.

      Also playing on Tory minds will be the possibility of IndyRef2 and how they might best avoid it. They must know that if circumstances justify IndyRef2 then those same circumstances mean a Yes result becomes possible, even probable.

      What matter most to the Tories? I reckon their highest priority must be to maintain the UK, no Tory PM wants to go into history as the one who killed the UK! Their next priority is to achieve Brexit, any Brexit. And third on their list is to achieve the least damaging Brexit within their self imposed red lines.

      If I’m right, they will act to minimise the ‘excuses’ for IndyRef2.

      I also reckon they will throw absolutely everything at BritNats winning the next Holyrood election. The dark money will flow in, dark crafts will be deployed. Their media will try everything. Fearmongering, lies, fake news, faux promises like we have never seen the like of. They know if they can prevent a pro Indy majority, the threat is over, probably permanently. Devolution will be rolled back. Nothing can then stop Project Greater England.

      In an ideal world, the Tories will do something really stupid, cause widespread indignation in Scotland, and ‘invite’ IndyRef2 under favourable (for us) circumstances.

      Patience is difficult! In Nicola we trust!

    150. Lenny Hartley says:

      O/T and not even Indy related but I know Wingers are an extremely generous bunch.
      There is a Motorcycle Race Team in Edzell which is in needs of some funding to get to the Manx Grand Prix at the end of the month. Whats new you ask, well this is a team with a difference in that the team is comprised off kids who are finding it difficult to stay on the straight and narrow or find jobs. The team helps these kids to communicate, learn teamwork and to trust others.
      I have seen them turn round kids who were destined for the scrapheap. A very worthwhile cause.
      https://www.gofundme.com/help-hedzup-racing-get-to-the-manx

    151. Albert Herring says:

      @frogesque

      Or stick with the original and best.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG48Ftsr3OI

    152. Macart says:

      @Thepnr

      Good post and agree. Right now it’s about what hasn’t happened and what we don’t know. The clock is ticking down and options narrowing, but that doesn’t mean outcomes are set in stone. Folk panicking won’t help either.

      Calm appraisal. In fact calm in general, is need now more than ever. The right person is on the job.

    153. Effijy says:

      I work in Glasgow and today trying to keep appointments in around the City have been an unmitigated disaster.

      The Road Race has for some unknown reason has been designed to loop the City and stop all forms of road transport.

      I was in Milngavie this morning and wanted to travel 2-3 miles down into Balmore Industrial Estate.

      Boclair Rd Blocked at the end of it.
      Canniesburn Roundabout block at my chosen exit.
      Temple RD closed at Junction with Cowal St,
      Great Western Rd Blocked, Hyndland Rd Blocked
      Dumbarton Rd Blocked, Rosevale St for the Expressway blocked
      Motorway then up to Springburn Rd, Blocked,
      around that to Colston Rd, Blocked,
      around that to Springburn Rd Blocked,
      Kirkintilloch Rd Blocked,

      I spent 2.5 Hours trying to travel 2-3 miles?
      One client today called of going to their work as they couldn’t figure out a route to get in?
      Another should have visited our offices but again, gave up trying to get there.

      I noticed that at every junction that I failed to cross 2 black men in hi vis jackets. Not one of them had reasonable English in order give me a clue how to get to my destination?

      I asked Policemen at different junctions and they too claimed to be lost as to how I might travel?

      Glasgow City Council had no contact number to make inquiries
      nut do have a very long form that should take half an hour if you would like to get advice on having food parcels delivered to your stranded car.

      I’m all for Glasgow hosting events in order to raise the economy but this ridiculous route must have cost the City £10’s Millions.

      There must be thousands of barriers that have been hired, positioned and to be uplifted.
      Hundreds if not thousands of people kitted out hired to lean on the barriers at every junction.
      Who pays for the Police Presence?

      During my 2.5 hour tour of blocked junction roads, I never seen or heard of a single cyclist?

      Why didn’t they hold the road race around Loch Lomond and keep
      the City economy working?
      Why didn’t the race start at daylight 6am and finish before 9am?
      Why are we showcasing the Pot Holes and Litter of Glasgow Suburbs
      when we are surrounded by natural beauty spots?

      I’d love to know the estimated cost of holding this road race, and the impact that it must have had on business between lost revenue and lost wages from employees who couldn’t make work.

      If it must finish in the city then why not one access route closed between Glasgow Green and Loch Lomond or wherever?

      Please learn a lesson from this most stupid of “organised” sports events.

      n

    154. starlaw says:

      Listening to May gobbing of yesterday I noticed how she loves to use the Union word a lot … EG Our United Kingdom..Kingdom being always used singular when in fact it should be Kingdom’s as there are TWO Kingdoms. I feel we as Scots are being treated as the disappeared Kingdom and it is now time to reassert our position as members of the United Kingdom’s, and should stick an apostrophe s every time we write or say Kingdom’s

    155. frogesque says:

      @ Albert Herring 2.05

      Many thanks.

    156. HandandShrimp says:

      Jenny Marra demonstrating that Labour have learned how to copy Trump’s fake news manipulation of the media?

      File under “just another dodgy politician”

    157. Fred says:

      @ Effijy, I had a similar experience, parked at Kirkintilloch Road in the Briggs & hoped to catch a taxi on the other side at Colston or the Milton. Not a taxi to be seen however. My own fault, should have listened to advice or started earlier!

    158. Clapper57 says:

      @ Thepnr @ 1.36pm

      Thepnr that was a very good and well written post….softly softly catchee monkey…..hold hold hold Nicola…will be obvious when time is right….they would love to force her hand but hopefully she will resist.

      Best to wait until their on the ropes and we can see the whites of their eyes before firing the starting gun…I’m sure when Brexit The final chapter unfolds the justification for Scottish Independence will be a much harder argument to dispute as a logical course for Scotland….what will be their alternative option for Scotland ….to go down with the Captain with all hands on deck ?…..Sorry rather sail away to safety on Indy lifeboat than choose to sink with the pirates who sunk the bloody ship.

      David bleedin Cameron…You had one job …sigh !

      Aye me hearties….bottle of rum…Captain’s Turdseye…yo ho ho…..whoa whoa end of nautical references mateys….fir nows.

    159. Petra says:

      Yeah good post, thepnr. Just about sums it up. Nicola is walking on a tightrope right now and all I can say is thank God we’ve got her on our side and not Rennie or Leonard. Worst still, Davidson. Can you imagine that, eh?

      ………………………….

      @ HandandShrimp says at 2:57 pm ….. ”Jenny Marra demonstrating that Labour have learned how to copy Trump’s fake news manipulation of the media? File under “just another dodgy politician.”

      That’s the name of the game now and I reckon they’ll up the ante as time goes on …… right up until Indyref2. The Unionist politicians spout a pack of lies and the BBC and STV (and newspapers) broadcast the lies far and wide. And then when it’s found to be a load of old porkies no BBC/STV public correction is forthcoming. I would suggest however, H&S, that they’re not manipulating the media at all. They all work in concert with each other. All in it together. A rat pack, in other words, of politicians and media personnel.

      ………………………

      ‘Scottish rape charity in funding crisis for not doing ‘enough for men.’

      …”In an interview with The National, manager Isabelle Kerr said a BBC Children In Need grant had been denied on the grounds that the organisation does not work with male survivors….”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16406240.glasgow-and-clyde-rape-crisis-funding-cut-for-not-doing-enough-for-men/

      ………………………

      ‘What is Ross Thomson doing in Japan?’

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16404353.what-is-ross-thomson-doing-in-japan/

    160. heraldnomore says:

      O/T I see Aldi’s flour is going to have to go on the No Thanks list – new packing with full on UJ badging. Not in this house.

    161. Dan Huil says:

      @Clapper57 3:28pm

      After all that nautical stuff shouldn’t you rename yourself Clipper57?

    162. Alba woman says:

      ‘Patience is genius’. one thing Nicola has in spades is patience. Could it be she is also a genius politician !

    163. ronnie anderson says:

      http://www.facebook.com/events/1780123655376085/

      Please promote this event on F/Book / Twitter ect .

    164. stu mac says:

      @Breeks says:
      8 August, 2018 at 6:41 am
      Take a step back, clear your mind, and read the comments in the thread.
      https://twitter.com/GlennBBC/status/1026920603444502528

      =========

      Interesting link. Inspired me to go and buy the red badge. (https://the-bonny-badge-company.myshopify.com/search?q=is+that+true).

    165. call me dave says:

      @stu mac

      Aye! They’re no happy bunnies on BBC Glen’s twitter 🙂

    166. Clapper57 says:

      @ Dan Huil says: 8 August, 2018 at 4:32 pm

      “After all that nautical stuff shouldn’t you rename yourself Clipper57”?

      ———————————————————-

      Ahoy Dan …are ya being Cutty Sarky Lol.

      Have a good evening Dan…..though don’t go OVERBOARD….shiver me timbers me name be Captain Clapper57…only Clipper when I cut my nails.

    167. gus1940 says:

      The contrast between the pictures of Nicola and the Maybot in Edinburgh yesterday was interesting – Nicola with a stern determined face showing that she won’t be messed about while the Maybot gave her usual impression of a dithering jelly.

      On the Maybot again she nearly went down on her knees in front of Prince Williamm in Amiens today.

      The metropolitan media are in full near hysterical mode frantically publicising somebody called Princess Eugenie as if she is some kind of goddess. What has this parasite ever achieved?

    168. jfngw says:

      I wonder who fed Ms Marra with the numbers, stitched up like a kipper.

      Good tactic, feed them mince and they will bring it up on Rep Scot.

    169. Cactus says:

      Host Iain Dale slagging off the BBC on the LBC wireless there.

      Calling out their bias live there.

      Autumn sweep next…

    170. jfngw says:

      I assume that Jenny Marra will now be campaigning for the abolition of the resettlement grant for politicians that are removed by the public from their seats. Because this in my book is the same ‘pay off’ that the NHS Taydside used, being sacked and your contract ended.

      I suspect thi suggestion would just be laughed at as ludicrous by most politicians. They see no irony in their self serving protests about others effectively on a similar contract.

    171. Alba 46 says:

      Re Jenny Marra

      She lied. She received information that she was too lazy to check.

      She should be reported to the Presiding Officer for misleading the public and reprimanded / suspended. She should also be removed from her position as chair of a Holyrood committee.

      As for the westminster funded BBC’s role in this, job done. No need to check the information, it came from a British unionist therefore it must be correct.

    172. Terence callachan says:

      English people living in Scotland of which there are about 800,000 mostly want Brexit just like English people living in England.
      English people living in Scotland nearly all vote against Scottish independence but Brexit is more important to them so if it’s a choice one or the other they will choose Brexit
      However it’s not one or the other , that’s a fact
      England plans to have Brexit and plans to retain control of Scotland ,they will do anything to acheive both.
      There will not be another Brexit referendum
      English people living in Scotland ( apart from a few thousand that have Scottish partners ) will once again vote against Scottish independence and it is highly likely that the statistics will show that had English people been refused a vote on whether their country ENGLAND should continue to control Scotland or not ,the YES side would have won easily.
      It is without doubt the massive amount of English people that voted in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum that swung it in favour of NO, we should not let this happen again, it is completely undemocratic for English people to be able to vote for their country England to continue controlling Scotland no matter where they live , where they live is immaterial in this matter.

    173. brewsed says:

      A quote from the scottish sun on 23 May 2018, ‘Tonight a BBC Scotland spokesman said: “Since the referendum, which we reported fairly and accurately, we have continued to provide a high quality news service.” ‘

      How did that go then?

    174. yesindyref2 says:

      I think I’ll go on to Part 2 of “Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum.”, as I’ll be busy next dew days and might not get to post it.

      ———–
      Technique #2 – ‘CONSENSUS CRACKING’

      A second highly effective technique is ‘consensus cracking.’ To develop a consensus crack, the following technique is used. Under the guise of a fake account a posting is made which looks legitimate and is towards the truth is made – but the critical point is that it has a VERY WEAK PREMISE without substantive proof to back the posting. Once this is done then under alternative fake accounts a very strong position in your favour is slowly introduced over the life of the posting. It is IMPERATIVE that both sides are initially presented, so the uninformed reader cannot determine which side is the truth. As postings and replies are made the stronger ‘evidence’ or disinformation in your favour is slowly ‘seeded in.’ Thus the uninformed reader will most like develop the same position as you, and if their position is against you their opposition to your posting will be most likely dropped. However in some cases where the forum members are highly educated and can counter your disinformation with real facts and linked postings, you can then ‘abort’ the consensus cracking by initiating a ‘forum slide.’
      ————

    175. wull2 says:

      Looking through the squirrel slot.
      Is that a iceberg I see.
      Is it time to man the life boat or do we wait until we see the white of the iceberg.

    176. yesindyref2 says:

      It was also an appropriate time to post it 😉

    177. galamcennalath says:

      Terence callachan says:

      English people living in Scotland of which there are about 800,000

      Where do you get that figure from? Sounds very Labour-esque.

      2011 Census

      Scottish 4,445,678 83.95%
      Other British 417,109 7.88%
      Irish 54,090 1.02%

      Although a majority of non-Scots, voted NO in 2014, many did vote YES.

      The same is true of Other EU citizen because they believed that would secure EU membership.

      Also, I have heard it said that a small majority of Scots born folks who voted did support YES.

      A line has to be drawn as to who can and can’t vote. For me, living here and paying taxes should give you a say.

      Times have changed since 2014 …. totally … IMO a well run campaign against a background of Brexit damage can persuade most to vote YES next time. I exclude the 20-30% of fanatical BritNats who are ideologically and illogically tied to their UK.

      May folks voted NO for reasons other than cult UKOK following. They are all now up for grabs, English born or not.

    178. sandy says:

      Starlaw @ 2.43pm.

      Apostrophe is in the wrong place. If belonging to both the Kingdoms, should be Kingdoms’. Eg “It’s the Kingdoms’ responsibility”- ie the responsibility of both Kingdoms.

      I don’t mean to be pedantic but many are confused with regard to positions of apostrophes.

    179. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Terence callachan at 7.28

      There are over 400,000 English people living in Scotland not 800,000. There are several of them in my branch of the SNP and others who do shifts in the YES Forward Shop in Dunoon. None of them want Brexit though several of our Scottish colleagues do. Latest opinion polls are now showing a small majority against Brexit in England.
      On my observation younger English people living and working in Scotland in significant numbers support YES and they are just as easy to persuade as our own people – sometimes easier in fact. If we want to win the next referendum persuading them to vote YES is the way to go and this only can happen if we are generous and friendly to them and ask them to support us.

    180. frogesque says:

      @Terence Callahan 7.28

      Some sweeping statements there, anything to back them up?

      This English vote for this, that, mibees aye, mibees naw or whatever fair gets tiresome.

      There are solid English For YES folks, go look at there website. Regretably there are Scots born and bred who will vote NO even if it made their granny and their wanes homeless. Just go to any site with even mild affiliations to a certain footie club or the OO. be prepared to wash your brain with Lysol afterwards though.

      Be careful of generalising, it gets folks backs up, especially those English here who are trying to convert NOs

    181. frogesque says:

      @yesindyref2: 7.51

      aye mebee @7.28 lol

    182. galamcennalath says:

      “May letter aims to rally grassroots Tories to Chequers Brexit plan”

      It is also being reported that she suggested Nicola back her plan.

      Why is TMay continuing to flog this deceased horse? It died within a couple of days of being released.

      In her letter to her members …

      “The script preps Tory members to answer questions such as “is this Brexit in name only?” and “won’t the EU just reject this?” which includes the reply “both sides have to compromise”.”

      Really? The EU has put multiple options on the table yet TMay persists in cherry picking which is just not going to happen.

      I smell shite! More and more it looks like the Chequers so called plan was never meant to be taken seriously and is just a cover to allow TMay to blame the EU for not ‘compromising’.

      http://archive.is/kIgYQ

    183. Clapper57 says:

      Well kick ma donkey…seems lying is contagious…well as far as health stories are currently concerned…below is a tweet from today from NHS Borders twitter account :

      “We would like to point out that A&E waiting times figures in the @bordertelegraph today are incorrect. NHS Borders saw an average of 92.6% of patients within 4 hours in the last year (June 2017 – May 2018) not 85% as printed. We have asked Border Telegraph to correct this”.

      2:13 AM – 8 Aug 2018

      Re the above this is just fine and dandy…oh oh social media fake news fake news….ya really thunk so ?….Has Border Telegraph been speaking to someone whose first name rhymes with Henny and surname rhymes with Barra…..well they say everything comes in three’s…..So what next ?……..Confucius says lie once and forever you be known as a lying fanny or fannies………………nb. fanny/fannies not exact translation purely my interpretation on appropriate term under CURRENT circumstances….actually appropriate for PAST and FUTURE too.

      Will this Lie Fest ever end ?…….rhetorical…tis a DNA trait of those Diehard Tories who proudly wear the colours Yellow/Blue/Red …..the rainbow Unionist warriors ….soon to die off politically in a country near ,dear and here for many on this site.

      My cup runneth over with the choice of news programmes on different TV channels….my oh my so many channels to watch and listen to the news……all reporting news stories that are half cooked…with main ingredients left out….half baked stories not worth digesting and not really worth serving up…same old tired recipe used …..fattened up with an unhealthy dose of codswallop smothered in over processed junk and they wonder why we all want to go on a diet .

      nb.Dan Huil no nautical terms were used in the creation of this post…..only culinary ones….what call me now…. Chef57 ?

    184. call me dave says:

      £100,000 grant to help Glasgow asylum seekers facing eviction

      https://archive.is/cqahD

    185. Scott says:

      RE THe Fire Sale.

      Will this be costing UK more money.

      https://on.rt.com/9bzl

    186. Confused says:

      Some links to help us all defeat the “naughty people” –

      https://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/2012-10-28/cointelpro-techniques-dilution-misdirection-and-control-internet-forum

      http://washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/the-15-rules-of-internet-disinformation.html

      http://washingtonsblog.com/2011/05/twenty-five-rules-of-disinformation.html

      http://www.brasscheck.com/martin.html

      Did you know “hoodwinked” is a masonic term, as is “diverting the discourse”?

      Better shut up before I go the “FULL_ALEX_JONES” … (Never! go the FULL-alex-jones) – sad times for the internets favourite amateur vaccinologist and water-filter salesman. Oh well.

      A couple of types I’ve noticed on Wings –

      – the FUDs (Fear Uncertainty Doubt peddlers) – they want indpendence SO MUCH but theres ALL THESE PROBLEMS WE NEED TO SOLVE FIRST

      – the new-handle eager beaver zealot who posts a LOT of slightly over the top, too inflammatory stuff – then they make “we should be doing X” statements, where X is some utterly counterproductive shit that no one would take seriously – this is pointed out, eventually – then they flounce off calling everyone “trolls” who are “not serious about independence”. “Nicola is holding back the cause, we need new leadership” – yeah, she’s dropping the ball at every turn … yawn

      Of course, no one really knows anyone here, though I understand some of the regulars have met in person. Even I could be an MKULTRA-ed Manchurian Candidate deep cover sleeper – certainly I get a lot of blackouts and lost time, but that may be my love of macallan and co-codamols.

      Otherwise, rather quiet … some stupid labour cow dun something stupid … film at eleven … pope remains catholic … boris johnson remains offensive …

    187. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      O/T but pretty terrifying

      caitlinjohnstone.com/2018/08/08/that-time-trumps-iran-advisor-threatened-to-murder-a-un-officials-children-to-start-the-iraq-war/

    188. ronnie anderson says:

      livestream.com/IndependenceLive/BBCProtestEvent

    189. Danny says:

      Talking to a Celtic supporter today in the East End of Glasgow and asked him his views on Scottish Independence,, and his answer was:

      “Am no intae awe that Scottish stuff, am an Irish Republican”

      It kinda leaves you speechless.

      So it seems there is still a bit of work to be done regarding getting the message out to oor ain folks.

    190. sinky says:

      Usual BBC London TV News editorial judgements. Headlines for Ruth Davidson’s comments on Boris but no mention of the First Minister of Scotland attending the Amiens commemoration event.

    191. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Here’s an idea.

      Neuter the Union Jack flag. User it in support if Scottish independence.
      “British for Scottish independence” or “Britons for Scottish Independence”

    192. jfngw says:

      @sinky

      It’s just how the BBC works, they use the slow drip-drip of Davidson promotion (I think she has been on the Network BBC more than the FM), there objective is to have her FM at Holyrood. I don’t think I have ever seen a quote from the UK Labour Party leader in Scotland being on the network news (neither has Rennie but that is actually a godsend), they are totally banking on Davidson.

      The Tories have the 1950’s Holyrood syndrome, if you make yourself aloof and unavailable the more they believe the common people will respect them and believe they are intellectually superior. When we know many are just self serving parasites that are there to line their own pockets.

      We always need to remember the BBC are one of the best propaganda outfits in the world, we shouldn’t underestimate them. We are not their target audience and they know we have their number, they don’t even try to persuade us.

    193. Robert Peffers says:

      @Danny says: 8 August, 2018 at 1:17 pm:

      ” … Don’t be put off by the Bully Boy tactics of a certain individual. That guy has problems trying to fit a Scots mind into his English body.”

      Och! Danny, they don’t bother me. I left school and joined Rosyth Dockyard as an apprentice. Now the yard had re-opened when WWII was in the offing and the War Department, (as it was then), had an internal recruitment drive in the southern yards, and there were quite a few more southern yards back then, to come to Rosyth.

      Now any Englander that had been passed over for promotion saw their chance for not only perhaps several steps up the Civil Service ladder but got a great deal in selling up a home they owned and getting resettlement grants and lots of new houses the WD had requisitioned in Scotland. Rosyth was built as a new Garden City and the new council estates at the bottom end of Dunfermline were taken over.

      They built, “Tin Town”, in Rosyth with corrugated Iron and that eventually became known as, “Dolly Town”, as they improved the wee houses.

      There wasn’t a single Scots person employed on the management side at Rosyth for a lot of years. It was probably around the 1970s before Scots began to make any significant inroads into management.

      Also with the advent of WWII, places like the then new private estate at Colinton Mains in Edinburgh and a new housing scheme in Falkirk were commandeered and filled with English immigrants.

      Rosyth village became known as Little England and it still is filled with those of English descent today.

      Under such English domination in the working environment we apprentices very soon learned not only how to suffer or deflect the barbs but most also learned how to more than hold their own.

      Can you just imagine the fate of an Englander who made the usual idiotic claim that Hadrian built a wall to keep out the Scots or that Hadrian’s built the wall as the border line?

      They were thus attempting to browbeat in me a history buff and Hadrian’s wall is built entirely in England and there is quite a way further north to the border.

    194. Legerwood says:

      sinky says:
      8 August, 2018 at 10:07 pm
      Usual BBC London TV News editorial judgements. Headlines for Ruth Davidson’s comments on Boris but no mention of the First Minister of Scotland attending the Amiens commemoration event.””
      …………..

      BBC Reporting Scotland in their 6.30 pm bulletin had a report on the ceremony at Amiens today. The report mentioned the FM’s presence at the ceremony and included a brief interview with her.

    195. Danny says:

      Robert Peffers 10.47pm

      Brilliant trip down memory lane there regarding the Rosyth area.

      Morayshire and more recently Aberdeenshire have similar “Little Englands” popping up in their areas.

      That is why we don’t have Alex Salmond as an MP anymore. The little englanders and UKippers and Unionists got together and all voted Tory to oust oor Alex.

    196. Robert Peffers says:

      @Terence callachan says: 8 August, 2018 at 7:28 pm:

      ” … English people living in Scotland of which there are about 800,000 mostly want Brexit just like English people living in England.”

      Have you any solid proof of that Terence? For I know a goodly number of SNP MPs and MSPs are English born and/or born of one or more England Parents or have one or more non-Scots Grand parents.

      ” … English people living in Scotland nearly all vote against Scottish independence but Brexit is more important to them so if it’s a choice one or the other they will choose Brexit.”

      Again I see no hard evidence for that claim and for some years now there have been banners carried at marches, rallies, protests and meetings by English people for Scottish Independence. Not to mention a fast growing faction in England demanding a Parliament and independence for England. They indeed have websites on the web.

      The rest of your post borders upon being racist and I’m not even going to go there.

    197. Dr Jim says:

      *Experts*

      Tomorrows Herald has *experts* to tell Scotland it can’t be an Independent country
      I have a question, how does one become an expert in something one has never done on a country that has never done it before, even though umpteen others have done it quite successfully thanks very much

      *Experts* told us the world was flat, experts told us we would never fly, experts told us we would never go to the Moon

      Today we talk to phones and they answer back to tell us which way to turn on the road to go somewhere, they add up numbers for us, they can even tell us where the nearest Tai food restaurant is if we’re hungry, all that and they even let us talk to our friends if we want to over great distances around the world, *experts* told us all that was not possible, Star Trek fictional nonsense they said

      Yep the Herald has *experts* to tell us things all right

      I laugh in the pussy faces of their *experts*

    198. Clootie says:

      …in the interest of balance. Does anyone have an example of Jenny Marra telling the truth!

    199. Cactus says:

      Hey Dr Jim, howde 🙂

    200. remo says:

      You’re back Dr. Jim! Whoopee!

    201. Liz g says:

      Hi Dr Jim
      Welcome back X

    202. yesindyref2 says:

      Yay, Dr Jim!

    203. Robert Peffers says:

      @Danny says: 8 August, 2018 at 11:05 pm:

      ” … That is why we don’t have Alex Salmond as an MP anymore. The little englanders and UKippers and Unionists got together and all voted Tory to oust oor Alex.”

      Aye! Danny but I think they did us a big favour. The SNP people who were ousted have proven to be great assets when set free of the restraints of parliamentary protocol.

      Those who have not I believe are been got ready to front the next indyref campaign – that’s only speculation on my part, though.

    204. call me dave says:

      @Dr Jim

      Excellent! 🙂

    205. mike cassidy says:

      The aroma of fakenewsfeckery.

      The Rev has retweeted a claim by someone from the AEK Athens London Supporters Club of despicable behaviour by Celtic supporters.

      But if you follow the thread, something much closer to home is exposed.

      https://twitter.com/AEKinLondon/status/1027127112224976896

    206. Dr Jim says:

      I got lonely withoot ma freends

      Thanks chaps and chapesses I’m grateful

    207. Highland Wifie says:

      @Dr Jim
      🙂 🙂 🙂

    208. TJenny says:

      Dr Jim – Welcome back. 🙂 (We knew you’d need Wings for your sanity).

    209. Col says:

      Nice idea Dave, that would wind the British Nats up no end. Brits for Scottish indy group, when can we get this up and running? The most important thing though would not be about winding anyone up but actually showing that you can be British in an indy Scotland.

    210. Cherry says:

      So glad you’ve come back Dr Jim. I always enjoy your wicked wit and sense of humour! 🙂 😉

    211. Still Positive says:

      Welcome back Dr Jim – missed your comments.

    212. ben madigan says:

      lovely to see Dr Jim back after his wee holiday!

      We all need a short break now and then!

    213. K1 says:

      Oh thank God your’e back Dr Jim!

      Couldn’t bear the prospect of our next indy campaign without you on here 🙂

    214. Dr Jim says:

      Aww you guys!

      And they say we’re the baddies

    215. Macart says:

      @Dr Jim

      Good to see you back. 🙂

      And yes, experts. We’ve got experts too.

      Last time out, people chose to believe Yoon experts. Mind you, as they were daily given a mahoosive soapbox and mass meeja saturation to spread their doooooooom, that’s not entirely surprising. Didn’t work out so well for Scotland’s population.

      In fact it appears their ‘experts’ were quite demonstrably wrong. I believe the technical term is…talkin’ pure pish.

      Mibbies this time folk’ll be more open to our experts opinion? 😎

    216. yesindyref2 says:

      I’m going to take a contrary view on McLaren’s report, as is my wont, and say it’s a good contribution to the SGCR debate, and perhaps a main purpose of the SGCR is to draw such fire, which could be easily predicted to happen. I had a quick look at the Scottish Trends report and this caught my eye (well, TBH I was looking for it):

      (having also said the euro should be examined as it’s a better bet than before)

      4) Further currency options and details
      . . . As a result, there is notable support amongst a number of economists for a separate Scottish currency at the point of independence, whereas business interests are more sympathetic to the continued use of some form of sterling.
      . . .
      The SGCR may have been better off softening up public and political opinion to allow for a wider debate on this subject rather than making a straight choice now

      http://scottishtrends.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/GrowthCommissionReview-B.pdf

      Well, I think there are some who might think this would be a good time to go a little MMT. Here MMT, good little MMT, have some foodies, show us what you got!

    217. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Scotland!

      It’s party time again:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcutzDBC9aQ

      UNDER ALL CIRCUMSTANCES READ WINGS OVER SCOTLAND.

    218. Dorothy Devine says:

      Glad to see you back Dr Jim , you know there are special people on this site who add so much to the debate , take the sting out of irritation , relieve depression and educate and you are one of them!

      Cactus , when we regain our independence and the eightsome reels are in full swing and hooch ,I expect you to be leading the whole thing off!

    219. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy Devine

      Eightsome reels are ok, but if you want to live dangerously I’d suggest a strip the willow.

      Not for the faint hearted. 🙂

    220. Nana says:

      https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/meet-the-man-writing-stop-brexit-across-europe-with-a-van-and-gps-tracker-1-5642099

      https://www.politico.eu/article/two-false-choices-for-britain/

      The ratcheting up of a No Deal Brexit scenario could leave 500,000 Brit expat pensioners losing their annual up rating and end up like ex pat pensioners living in increasingly poverty stricken circumstances in Australia and Canada.
      https://www.byline.com/column/22/article/2256

      https://alisonmortonauthor.com/2018/08/on-being-british-in-europe-now/

    221. Marie Clark says:

      AH! Dr Jim, coulnae resist us ony mair . Great to see you back posting again, we all missed you. Hope you feel better, a wee break really does you good.

      Indy is not far away now, and we need you and everyone else for the final push.

      As for the latest “expert” well it’s in the Herald piece by Tom Grdon. Says it all really.

    222. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Macart

      Re Strip the Willow: My late wife reckoned, in all the rugby club dances we went to in our young days – before the weans got in the way – her feet never once touched the floor as she went down the line at that particular dance.

      Mind you, I will never forget the look of sheer terror on the faces of my footballing cousin’s English team mates, as they watched the Dashing White Sergeant being danced at his wedding. Then we did Strip the Willow…..

    223. gus1940 says:

      If you thought that Tractor Tom Gordon’s piece in The Herald re McLaren’s latest Project Fear nonsense was bad try reading The Scotsman’s hysterical scare nonsense commenting on McLaren’s ‘report’.

    224. Socrates MacSporran says:

      I don’t know about The Herald, but The Hootsmon’s take on the McLaren report in Scottish Trends has got the usual trolls positively foaming at the mouth on their website.

      Funding their mental health treatment just might be the biggest problem facing our post-independence health service, the wee souls.

    225. Tam the Bam. says:

      O/T

      Just a wee heads-up to a programme beginning @9-00am on Radio 4 featuring Alistair Darling on the topic of ‘populism’.
      Now I wonder why he has been invited to air his thoughts?

    226. Macart says:

      @Socrates MacSporran

      “Dashing White Sergeant being danced at his wedding. Then we did Strip the Willow…..”

      Jeez! The poor souls. Pfft! Footballers. Lightweights. 😀

      Mind you, for working up a thirst (not to mention a sweat), it’s just the thing.

    227. brewsed says:

      The Orcadian strip the willow really sorts out the sheep from the goats.

    228. brewsed says:

      Another link for you all
      https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-08-09/wto-rules-are-no-panacea-for-the-pain-of-brexit

      Strange how we have to rely on the non-msm to find out what is going on.

    229. yesindyref2 says:

      Time for Part 3 of “COINTELPRO Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum”

      ———-
      Technique #3 – ‘TOPIC DILUTION’

      Topic dilution is not only effective in forum sliding it is also very useful in keeping the forum readers on unrelated and non-productive issues. This is a critical and useful technique to cause a ‘RESOURCE BURN.’ By implementing continual and non-related postings that distract and disrupt (trolling ) the forum readers they are more effectively stopped from anything of any real productivity. If the intensity of gradual dilution is intense enough, the readers will effectively stop researching and simply slip into a ‘gossip mode.’ In this state they can be more easily misdirected away from facts towards uninformed conjecture and opinion. The less informed they are the more effective and easy it becomes to control the entire group in the direction that you would desire the group to go in. It must be stressed that a proper assessment of the psychological capabilities and levels of education is first determined of the group to determine at what level to ‘drive in the wedge.’ By being too far off topic too quickly it may trigger censorship by a forum moderator.
      ————

      It’s maybe more intended for UseNet where people can post different topics, but threads can be hijacked, whereas Wings as long as the first 12 or 20 posts are on-topic the Rev doesn’t mind, and much of the value comes from those who post other interesting information and links. But it can still apply with intrusive interruptions and distractions.

    230. IZZIE says:

      I see Rape Clause Ruth has managed to comment on Boris on ‘Victoria’ pity she couldn’y comment to BBC Scotland.

    231. ronnie anderson says:

      Dr Jim ah hope you got the sunshine during yer wee sabbatical , ah hope yer well rested cause we need aw the hawners we can get .

      Welcome back.

    232. jfngw says:

      I was wondering how long it would be before the MSM would do this years rubbishing of any exam results, two days seems to be the answer.

      I don’t remember this annual attack on the exam results prior to the SNP coming to power, I only remember the record number of passes as being the headline objective. I could just be forgetting of course as it’s a long time since the unionist were in power at Holyrood.

    233. Colin Alexander says:

      If we consider the Union of 1707, the ruling classes of Church of Scotland and Scots Law went along with it as long as their privileged status was protected.

      Then, as now: as long as I’m alright (Union) Jack.

      If the independence movement wants to get the legal Establishment on-side for independence, the Scot Govt should propose that if the people reject independence again, the Scots Law system will be hugely reformed by being assimilated as much as the Treaty of Union allows by copying, in many cases the more modern, fairer English legal system, and that English Law trained solicitors can freely practise in Scotland.

      Watch the cosy Scottish Establishment of protected, antiquated and corrupt Scots Law legal system abandon their love for Union when it means they have to compete for jobs the same as the rest of us within the so-called, misleading term, commonly referred to as the UK single market.

    234. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Highly recommend Tarff Advertiser piece Nana. Peter didn’t miss and hit the wossiname. Also the LSE piece travels in the right direction regarding BPT as they call it. Having said that some of their terminology regarding political and national relationships could do with a right pull through. Still, all in all, a reasonable summary of the state of UK politics.

    235. yesindyref2 says:

      This is from a later bit: “wenty-Five Rules of Disinformation”

      4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.

    236. Robert Peffers says:

      @Col says: 9 August, 2018 at 12:25 am:

      ” … The most important thing though would not be about winding anyone up but actually showing that you can be British in an indy Scotland.”

      Aye!

      Richt!

      When I said, some years ago on Wings, that I was Scottish, and by reason of being born in Britain, (in Midlothian), I was and would remain British.

      I got pelters in spades. Perhaps the leading voice in the welter of criticism was a certain, “Rock”, who has continued that attack ever since. Often pasting a link to my long ago made comments made here on Wings.

      I’m every bit as British as a Cockney Pearly King born within earshot of Bow Bells and certainly more British that the Royals of the, (cough!), British Royal Family.

      In 1714, Queen Anne died, and her direct Stuart line came to a juddering halt. This caused a big problem for Westminster because the, around 50, of her nearest in line relatives were all Catholics.

      The 1706/7 Treaty of Union’s real reason rose to the surface for the Treaty was specifically designed as a strictly Christian Protestant sectarian means to directly discriminate against Roman Catholicism.

      So the Westminster Establishment passed over all of the direct line and gifted the crowns of both signatory kingdoms of the United Kingdom. The minor royal Georg Ludwig, the Protestant Prince Elector of Hanover, got both United Kingdom crowns and the British royal house changed from Stuart to Brunswick-L?neburg-Hanover, with its main links and family connections to the ancient German royal houses of Welf and Este.

      The stark truth is that the Kingdom of England would rather have the remote Germans Royals than the real direct line of Scots descent established when Elizabeth I of England died without issue.

      But they don’t want you to know that.

      Are you listening Rock? Don’t bother attempting to reply to me I do not directly read your pish.

    237. Fred says:

      Who tells mair lies than Pinocchio? A photo would be good!

    238. Nana says:

      @Macart

      I liked the Richard North article and brexit will kill the sandwich.
      Anyone got good jam recipes for the jeely piece

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16406901.henry-mcleish-europe-could-hold-key-to-scottish-independence/

      https://itisintruthnotforglory.wordpress.com/2018/08/09/send-in-the-clowns/

    239. Macart says:

      @Nana

      Snap! Just posted a link upthread to Liz Castro’s highlighting of the same ECHR view. 🙂

    240. call me dave says:

      Henry in The National

      Human rights …within the context of Westminster .. etc..

      Same old. Henry 🙁

    241. Nana says:

      Oops Macart, I didn’t see your comment.

      I’ll have to brush up my alert reader skills 🙂

    242. Cubby says:

      Danny @ 10pm

      Any chance of clarification as to how an Irish Republican is one of “our oon folks”.

    243. call me dave says:

      Tarff Advertiser certainly spelling out the possible stark consequences that could follow if darn Start plays hardball.

      Shurley schome mishtake… old neighbours won’t push us to the brink and beyond!

      🙂

    244. Danny says:

      Cubby 10.36am

      “Any chance of clarification as to how an Irish Republican is one of “our oon folks”.

      Baffled me as well Cubby. The guy is a Glaswegian of Irish descent.

      His thinking takes us back to the 70s when the IRA really influenced the way a lot of Celtic fans thought. They sided with the IRA in wanting the Brits out of Northern Ireland and wanting a United Ireland.

      My take on him is he is an old fashioned Labour voter where Scottish Independence does not even register in his mind.

      He comes across as being happy with the status Quo in Scotland but still has an issue with the British in Ireland.

      Complicated I know but I think he is typical of a lot of Catholic Labour voters stuck in a 70s time warp.

    245. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana
      Socrates MacSporran
      Macart

      Here the very manny that kin gie yous aw direction .

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0DXDV1xThU

    246. Macart says:

      @ ronnie anderson

      😆

      I thought that’s how everyone learnt? 😉

    247. Nana says:

      Hey Ronnie, I’m dizzy watching that video.

      By the way “are ye dancin”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k45uSUi8AI0

    248. Marie Clark says:

      ronnie anderson @ 11.06 Aw Ronnie you are naughty, but I like you.That brought back a lot of memories, I was just a wee lassie when I seen that, so it’s a long long time ago.

      Nothing wrang wi a guid strip the willow, especially the Orcadian yin.

    249. hackalumpoff says:

      Dancing down memory lane
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE_47RU7xnse

    250. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana

      Sos Nana ah hiv tae decline yer Ladies choice request, clydesdale kickin ma ribs in oan ma 2nd coarse of Amoxicillin for Pleurisy, need tae save ma energy’s for Sat BBC BIas Protest , im sure you wont be stuck for choice of a partner on Wings .

      BTW ah hiv ah good recipe fur Apple Tart , do you ken where ah kin find ah free range apple tree lol.

    251. ronnie anderson says:

      hackalumpoff Aye you go at yer ain pace Norman lol we aw could trip the light fantastic in our day ( nae acid uased ) noo we hiv tae watch oot incase we trip ere lol .

    252. ronnie anderson says:

      Marie Clark We were aw wee when Mr Pastry wiz oan the Roon Screen , the only Stripping the Willow we kin dey noo is if sumbudy pulls the branches doon fur us .

    253. Petra says:

      Thanks for the links Nana.

      October is the deadline!

      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/2225485774147403/

      …………………………….

      Macart says at 9:50 am …. ”Hunh! Who knew?”

      https://twitter.com/C4Ciaran/status/1027445348745269248

      ………….

      Hahaha! I reckon Jim Rodgers knew, for one Macart.

      90 cents? Not quite at 80 cents yet, as per Jim Rodgers. And could it drop further?

      ”If the Scots leave why won’t sterling go to 80 cents …. If the Scots leave they are going to take their oil … Little England doesn’t have much to sell to the world anymore ….”

      Take note of frightened Annie in the red dress, lol.

      4:50 mins in.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM9bokmUr0w

      …………………………..

      Welcome home, Dr Jim X

    254. Nana says:

      @Ronnie
      Sorry to hear you’re not well at the moment.

      “do you ken where ah kin find ah free range apple tree lol.

      Aye Ronnie, in my garden but you’ll need to climb a ladder 🙂

    255. Legerwood says:

      Report in the Herald online that Labour have been fined £140,000 for illegal data collection during GE.

      “”A COMPANY which helped Labour target new mothers in the general election has been fined £140,000 for illegally collecting and selling personal data on more than 1m people.
      The UK Information Commissioner’s Office (ICO) imposed the penalty on the parenting advice site Emma’s Diary, also known as Lifecycle Marketing (Mother and Baby) Ltd.””

    256. ronnie anderson says:

      Wee update on Bbc Bias protest its intended to create a Twitter storm at 2pm ( hashtag ScotlandCalling ) . Please Share .

    257. ronnie anderson says:

      Nana ah’ll be ok if the Clydesdale wid chist lay aff kicking ma ribs lol . Me n ladders no compatible noo

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaVSkh5Hy-U

      Ah come crashing doon .

    258. CameronB Brodie says:

      “No voters want to stay in the EU, but not if it means rejecting England’s right to overrule Scottish votes.”

      From a critical realist, post-colonial feminist perspective, No voters appear to have internalised the subordinate social role ascribed to them by British nationalism, which gives preference to English cultural values and practice. This is a deeply rooted and culturally damaging social pathology that requires an educational approach to address. Scotland desperately needs a ‘critical thinking space’ if it is to counter this culturally produced ‘subordinated subjectivity’.

      A new path for the discussion of Social Representations: Advancing the topic of subjectivity from a cultural-historical standpoint

      Abstract

      This article discusses a new approach to subjectivity from a cultural-historical standpoint and the possible links that this new definition could have with the theory of Social Representation (SR). One of the facets of this cultural-historical approach to subjectivity that makes this dialogue with SR theory possible is that subjectivity in this definition does not constrain individual phenomena. Rather, subjectivity as it is defined in this paper is a new ontological definition of human phenomena, whether social or individual, that brings into light the symbolical-emotional character of human phenomena. The concepts that shape Social Representation Theory as subjective configurations are discussed, as well as the consequences of this definition for the development of psychological theory. Social representation, as is assumed within the present paper, might be considered an important building block for the further advancement of a definition of subjectivity that is not exhausted by individual subjectivity.

      Keywords social representations, social subjectivity, subject, subjectivity, subjective senses

      http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0959354315587783

      Ideology, Hegemony, Discourse: A Critical Review of Theories of Knowledge and Power
      https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/f66b/93d70a3ba41d23704c25d24f0e1a82935d0e.pdf

      Creating Subjectivities
      https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/sub.2008.8

    259. Macart says:

      @Petra

      Jim Rodgers isn’t wrong and yes, the young lady in the red dress did get pretty flustered at the very thought. It’s the truth about the UK that dare not…etc.

      Wealth and wealth creation has a basis, a solid asset/s upon which it rests. Preferably a mixture of assets manufacturing/production, natural assets such as hydrocarbons, minerals etc and of course services.

      UK has no major manufacturing to speak of these days and those who do manufacture major goods such as say car manufacturers operate franchises from overseas head offices with an eye to a foothold in the EU market. Natural resources? Take a wild guess where the vast majority lie. Services? Of which financial services make up the bulk of the income. Again heavily reliant on the selling point of EU market access.

      As I said. Mr Rodgers has a point. The dip is nowhere near bottom as yet.

    260. Terence I agree with every thing you say about English people living in Scotland should not be allowed to vote on the future of Scotland the record shows that 80per cent of them voted no in the last ref., no other country would allow this to happen and as for Mr., Peffers I still say he is a troll I stopped reading his posts

      ,

    261. geeo says:

      October is going to be huge.

      Deal or No deal becomes apparent.

      The SC case delivers its verdict.

      Edinburgh Indy March.

    262. Fred says:

      Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon are both part English. So am ah, so ye kin fuck off!

    263. Liz g says:

      Fred @ 1.07
      This is the kind of thing that Yesindyref2 is getting at in his 9.38 post
      isn’t it?

    264. Abulhaq says:

      You can tell we’ve reached the political doldrums when Boris Johnson’s flippant comments on the burqa, a garment emblematic of repressive Salafist fundamentalism, get serious coverage.
      We’ve had Davidson’s disapproval so just waiting for Nicola & co to join in too.

    265. sassenach says:

      Blair Paterson @12.44pm

      Awa and bile yer heed!

      I came to Scotland 59 years ago, and spent my working life educating children in Scottish state schools. My own family are all Scottish born (and we are all SNP members).

      To have a numpty like you deride my claim to a vote because I happen to be ‘English born’ is almost racist in attitude.

      Say what you like about Mr Peffers, I’d still rather read his interesting stuff than your own garbage.

    266. Sinky says:

      Blair Paterson is talking nonsense and should look at how Montenegro won independence referendum despite having 28% of population Serbs who didn’t want to break away from Greater Serbia.

      Denying a vote to English born residents is as stupid as allowing Scots in England a vote on independence.

    267. call me dave says:

      Scots independence: Shock tactics

      Douglas Fraser earning his corn

      https://archive.is/iHFek

      PS:
      I remember my mother teaching me the Highland Schottische?

      It didn’t go well at the School dance. 🙁

    268. HandandShrimp says:

      Blair

      Even if what you suggest were to be desirable, which I think it isn’t, it would be scarcely practical.

      Of course those recently settled in Scotland may have torn loyalties but that is part and parcel of establishing a modern democracy. Our task is not to fret about all a couple of percent of the vote but rather to convince the majority and take those of a nervous disposition along with this. It is said that about 70% of the EU voters voted No, This would likely be 100% Yes in a second vote. The situation with other No voters might well be more fluid too as Brexit crashes on the beach and burns.

      To establish our country on some sort of ethnicity basis is a dead end, a dead end likely to cause bitterness and division. It is not the way to go which is why we didn’t go that way last time.

    269. Colin Alexander says:

      In Scotland’s democracy where “the people are sovereign”, the people vote for another indyref, but it’s one person, the FM, that decides if one will be held. (Or is it Theresa May? )

      Either one: Something wrong there with the democratic model in devolution Scotland.

      If no indyref is held after the people voted for one, it will be a democratic outrage.

    270. Confused says:

      This is a good one, riffing on the theme of “information war”

      https://jacobinmag.com/2017/07/israel-social-media-app-idf-shin-bet-bds

    271. Macart says:

      @yesindyref2

      Interesting posts on dilution and disruption. Worth reading.

    272. Col says:

      What about a 5 year residency rule for the vote? I don’t think English folk should be excluded from the vote but surely if you actually call Scotland home and are not just passing through on a short term contract with your employer you are showing a commitment to the country. Holiday home owners definitely shouldn’t get a vote!

    273. Proud Cybernat says:

      One Day at a Time…

      https://i.imgur.com/HbRugcb.jpg

    274. Big Del says:

      If this was us Brit Bias corp. would be all over it!!!
      (Cant archive sorry)

      https://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/crime/falkirk-msp-s-defiant-disgust-over-postal

    275. call me dave says:

      That Falkirk MSP story.

      https://archive.is/iyRCF

    276. Fred says:

      @ Liz, indyref is spot on, you could mebbes even make a case for anybody called Blair being a bit suspect!
      Semper Vigilo hen, Semper Vigilo.

    277. Cubby says:

      Danny @10.56am

      Many thanks for the further info. It is amazing the thinking that goes on in so many people’s heads in Scotland re Independence. So a Glaswegian supports Irish independence and a United Ireland but not Scottish independence. Go figure that one out.

      The British State, its empire, its political parties and its media have created a whole host of mixed up people. Westminster has a lot to answer for.

    278. Referendum1707 says:

      HandandShrimp said –

      “It is said that about 70% of the EU voters voted No, This would likely be 100% Yes in a second vote.”

      If the SNP don’t announce a date soon there won’t be any second vote. It’ll be Welcome To Serfdom.

      Help this fundraiser boost support for independence. (800,000 pro indy leaflets, among other things)

      https://igg.me/at/yes-we-can

    279. sandy says:

      Roger @ 2.28pm

      Go to utunes & type in “The Scottish Breakaway”.
      Since the original, there have been a few additions/adaptations/slight variations.
      If anybody can come up with these variations, etc, would be much appreciated.

    280. sandy says:

      —or even utube.

    281. wull2 says:

      Before I forget.
      I would like to thank the BBC for the free publicity for Wings.
      To all the new readers tell everyone you know to vote YES this time.

    282. Les Wilson says:

      Thinking about Boris, and his recent comments. I think that he is not stupid and would have known what would be the outcome, and the tirade that would follow. These comments were made I believe to a newspaper, so not a mistake, it had a purpose. So what is he really up to?

      One thought that crossed my mind, was that he may be angling towards UKIP, if he were to join that crowd, he will have applause ringing in his ears, he would also possibly take some prominent Tories with him.
      That would rejuvenate UKIP and perhaps that is his idea, be the leader and bring new blood into it and make it a threat to other parties.

      Then in a GE, he could hope to win and become PM, as I do not see he will get that as it is. But in charge of UKIP, he could then be a big threat with a chance of winning.
      If he did, god help us all. Just my thoughts.

    283. heraldnomore says:

      Wings goodies arrived today, whoopee. Big thanks to AyeMail.

    284. Petra says:

      @ Macart says at 12:40 pm …… ”Petra – Jim Rodgers isn’t wrong and yes, the young lady in the red dress did get pretty flustered at the very thought. It’s the truth about the UK that dare not…etc.

      4:50 mins in.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM9bokmUr0w
      ……………..

      There’s a number of videos that I use when I’m trying to get a point across to a prior No voter and that’s one of them. It’s particularly good in the case of people who say that we have no oil now or we have some but it’s worthless. Then you have people saying, ah but Jim Rodgers said that when the price was high. Well no he didn’t. If the date of the video is correct the price had dropped to 47 dollars a barrel.

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/oil-price-march-22-2017-2017-3

      Since he made his comments it’s now at around 72 dollars a barrel and the forecast is that it will hit and go over the 100 dollar mark.

      https://longforecast.com/oil-price-today-forecast-2017-2018-2019-2020-2021-brent-wti

      What I also find very interesting about that video is that the lady in red hears him say that England (around 53 million pop) with little to export will find itself in some financial mess, if it loses Scotland (5.3 million pop) and its oil. In other words our oil is worth an absolute fortune (even at 47 dollars).

      She then chunters on about ”whether or not Scotland could afford to leave.” Eh!

      Jim Rodgers goes on to say, ”but they (Scotland) don’t have gigantic debts.” She says ”They do have a lot of social (?) transfers from England.” Has it not dawned on her that they, Westminster, are just ”transferring” SOME of our own money back to us?

      That video content bursts a number of myths, including the constant Unionist mantra that England subsidises Scotland. Well NO, it doesn’t. What it does highlight is that we are / and have been (for decades) subsidising them. And that video of course only relates to our oil. Not the MANY natural resources that Scotland has been blessed with or our food and drink industry etc, etc, etc.
      ……………………..

      @ Proud Cybernat says at 3:35 pm …. ”One Day at a Time…”

      https://i.imgur.com/HbRugcb.jpg

      Hahaha! Brilliant.

      Addiction and dependency are often linked to mental health problems, such as anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts. High time someone considered suing the BBC / STV and / or our newspapers for pumping out a load of demoralizing propaganda, that’s seriously injurious to our health. Not kidding by the way!

    285. call me dave says:

      @heraldnomore

      Oh Yes! Forgot to mention that I got mine too. 🙂

      Lovely new badge for me. My granddaughter off with the rest 🙁

    286. mike cassidy says:

      Les Wilson 5.47

      If Johnson is heading for UKIP, he must be hoping they have short memories.

      “And I have read that there are some people – probably the type who are thinking of defecting to Ukip – who present themselves at A&E with barely credible injuries sustained through vacuum cleaner abuse.”

      http://archive.is/IQtNJ

    287. Cactus says:

      Off topic ~

      Ah’ve been listening on the wireless to the talk about helping to address people who try to and are successful in committing suicide (hmm SO if the taking of ones life is suicide, then the giving of ones life is sacrifice… as the opposite.)

      If the intention is to help further address this within the next four years (and all the knock-on effects that go with it,) aye know of one sure way that will help…

      It’s called being a normal independent country with opportunities and engagement galore. Sometimes hope alone can see people through the darkness.

      Hope can help more than 1 in 5.

    288. Undeadshuan says:

      @billpaterson you are a new 77th squadie posting here.

      I was born in england but have supported independence for years.

      Fuck off back to yer barracks ya bawheid numpty!

    289. sandy says:

      Let’s be honest. Boris is an educated, somewhat intelligent, fool lacking in common sense, a typical hooray-henry/buffoon with little time for anybody but for those of the same airt.

      Maybe he didn’t stick his reproductive appendage in some unfortunate animal’s mouth but he is certainly sticking it elsewhere to the detriment of us all.

      Selfish b*****d.

    290. Gullane No4 says:

      Re Blair Patterson.

      My English wife and one [probably two] of my English daughters now all living in Scotland would be quite mortified if you prevented them voting for an Independent Scotland.

      Also goes for two or three of my circle of friends.

      If you live in Scotland you have a vote…….anything else is just nonsense.

    291. Undeadshuan says:

      @remo

      Archived for you

      UK could run out of food a year from now with no-deal Brexit, NFU warns

      https://archive.is/j8pcj

    292. Thepnr says:

      Still much talk around the date of the next referendum and I watched one of Nana’s links this morning about exactly that.

      https://www.facebook.com/indycargordonross/videos/2225485774147403/

      It is a video from IndycarRoss that he made yesterday, I’ve only watch a couple of his videos before but this one disappointed for a couple of reasons. He states:

      “I should add to this that the very latest date that the British government can agree any kind of trade deal with the European Union will be the 18th of October this year.”

      “Because on that date the European Union meet…to discuss what the British have proposed and what the Europeans have countered with and to decide what exactly the British government is going to be given in terms of a future trade deal after Brexit. And also will there be any kind of…period for transition between being in the European Union of out of it.”

      The 18th Oct is not “the very latest date that the British government can agree any kind of trade deal”.

      That date is for a scheduled meeting of the European Council before the final scheduled meetings of the year on 13/14 Dec. At the beginning of the talks between the UK and EU it was agreed that the 18th Oct would be a suitable date for agreement between both parties to be put forward to the EU and UK parliaments for ratification of the Withdrawal Bill and the Future Framework agreement.

      That’s my second point, a “final trade deal” won’t be reached for years after the UK has left the EU, the Withdrawal agreement will be a legally binding document but the Future Framework is not. It is a set of guidelines that both sides can work with in aiming to obtain a final trade deal.

      He next goes on to say that:

      “At the moment, as far as we know the transition period is off the table because the British government has failed to meet the criteria which that was based upon. So that leaves us with a sudden Brexit with No deal on the table at the moment that we know about.”

      Again that is incorrect, the transition period has already been agreed and will last until Dec 2020 provided the withdrawal agreement is in place. Nothing has changed here and of course without a withdrawal agreement we crash out so there can be no transition but nothing is off the table.

      “From the point of view of the Independence campaign and the arguments in favour of having this referendum, we cannot leave it any later than October, and in fact October in my own opinion is a little bit too late to start thinking about holding the referendum.”

      This is an opinion, nothing more and of course he is entitled to it. I disagree, why should our decision on when to have a second referendum be tied in to an artificial deadline that the British Nationalists can ensure will never be met?

      After a little more on Nicola’s discussions with May he goes on:

      “Now, many of us in the Independence movement are extremely impatient at the moment to hear exactly when this is gonny happen, because most of us believe that if it doesn’t happen before October the 18th then the whole movement towards Independence will start to fragment. Because people are very, will get very angry at the leadership of the SNP throwing away the opportunity presented by this Brexit deal or no deal or whatever deal it turns out to be.”

      This is probably where I am most disappointed in his video. Why on earth should the “movement towards Independence will start to fragment”?

      This is crazy talk, it says that if in two months time Nicola hasn’t given us a date then we’re all taking our ball back and no playing any more. This isn’t a game and we’d all be better if we can appreciate that it’s a long game that so far we haven’t managed to win in more than 300 years.

      I realise of course that a good many are champing at the bit as too am I but I wouldn’t jeopardise this chance for the sake of some more time to make sure we get it right.

      I absolutely agree that it should be before the end of this parliament for one simple reason. I don’t see any circumstances ever, with the screw up that is Brexit and this government where we will ever have a better opportunity.

      Let’s not screw this one up through lack of self control. Stay calm, let Nicola decide and we have a much better chance of supping the sweet taste of victory and not another of bitter defeat.

    293. Petra says:

      I’ve posted this in full because the National newspaper link contains the word ”r*pe.”

      Please note if you are new on here that the use of certain words result in your comment disappearing into the ether (as happened to me yesterday).

      Anyway it looks as though Westminster in conjunction with the BBC are doing their utmost to scupper as much as they can in Scotland.

      BBC Children in Need have denied that this (GRCC do not do enough for males) was the reason. So why not actually, and publicly, divulge why they have terminated the grant?

      ………………………

      ‘Scottish Government gives r*pe charity in cash crisis £35k.’

      ‘Staff at Glasgow and Clyde R*pe Crisis (GRCC) had already told women and girls they would no longer accept new people onto the the waiting list for face-to-face help as a consequence of a funding loss.

      Manager Isabelle Kerr said they could not cope after BBC Children in Need declined to renew a three-year grant, claiming she had been told this was because the female-only service does not “do enough for males”. However, BBC Children in Need denied this was the reason.

      Today Equalities Minister Christina McKelvie said the Scottish Government would provide the £35,000 needed.

      McKelvie, who represents Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse, said: “We will continue to engage with R*pe Crisis Scotland to assess this situation and to take a long-term approach so that local r*pe crisis centres can continue to provide vital services not just in Glasgow, but across the country.”

      But after that statement was made, Forth Valley R*pe Crisis Centre (FVRCC) revealed it too had to limit services, capping the waiting list for those in the Falkirk area.

      Managers said the three-month pause was because they are “still trying to reach a funding agreement with Falkirk Council”, despite “overwhelming and increasing demand” from the public.

      However, work with those already receiving support will continue.

      The team said: “We are extremely saddened by this outcome and are continuing to discuss our funding position with Falkirk Council.”

      A spokesperson for the Scottish Government said it urges the local authority to engage with FVRCC in a bid to resolve the funding issue.

      Meanwhile, Kerr said she was “overwhelmed by the quick response” from the Scottish Government, along with the “amazing generosity” of supporters.

      An online appeal drew a rush of donations overnight, reaching around £10,600 by yesterday afternoon. That will be topped by an additional £2200 in gift aid.

      Thanking all who had helped, Kerr said: “The support we have had today has been phenomenal.

      “Tomorrow we begin the work of getting those support services back on track and the waiting lists reduced.”

    294. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Judging by reaction on Twitter, many indy supporters are not aware of the BBC demo on Saturday.

      Please, if you are on Twitter/FB or anything else, let your followers know.

      It’s from 1-3, Saturday, Pacific Quay. There’s also a Twitterstorm planned for 2pm sharp using #ScotlandCalling There is no organised rally/march prior to the demo – just go straight there. People are playing it by ear as to what to do afterwards but it seems likely that a lot of Wingers will head for either the Counting House or The Clutha (the usual haunts).

      😉

    295. Dr Jim says:

      I listened with great interest to BBC Scotland reporter Andrew Kerr as he bowed his head and with deep deference interviewed the Very Reverend Mother Andrea Leadsom of the UK Conservative government by asking virtually no questions at all

      So reverential was this interview that Reverend Mother Leadsom was allowed without question or pause to speak in superior but gentle warm tones on the subject of Brexit, a subject she knows little about but nevertheless gently and warmly informed Andrew Kerr of the BBC that the UK was confident and clear on it’s objectives and not to worry all will be well, one could almost hear her makeup creakily wrinkling as she must have looked down and smiled almost in his direction but not quite because Very Reverend Mothers of the Conservative party may not be interrupted mid sentence or mid flow, this is just not done don’t you know

      Andrew Kerr of the BBC said Yes Maam thank you Maam as the interview came to a close, no doubt by a soft hand gesture as the flicking away of a minor irritation, I am forever your humble servant as are all right thinking Scots and I’ll be backing away from you as I bow lowly like the inferior oh so inferior person that I am

      Thank you Thank you Thank you Andrew Kerr of the BBC mumbled, chin on his chest eyes downcast in the way all good Scots should behave when fortunate to be in the presence of the holiest of holies

      A Conservative Reverend Mother

    296. Macart says:

      @Petra

      “Has it not dawned on her that they, Westminster, are just ”transferring” SOME of our own money back to us?”

      Weeellll, she’s either being incredibly disingenuous and patronising to a fabulously successful financial commentator and investor in world markets, or its the far simpler answer of no, she has no idea. 😎

    297. crazycat says:

      O/T

      I’m intending to be at Paciifc Quay on Saturday. If anyone* there could provide me with a small bundle (maybe 20-30) of leaflets about the Dundee AUOB march/rally, to give out at Yes East Ayrshire’s shop, I’d really appreciate it.

      I know there is a leaflet because I’ve seen a picture of it in a tweet, but I don’t have a twitter account so can’t contact the person who posted it (if I could even find the tweet now).

      *It would need to be someone I know, I suppose. Or if anyone is aware that leaflets will be given out anyway, I’ll just look out for that.

    298. ronnie anderson says:

      Details
      image-409745182887492
      0.61MP 960 x 640 512.41KB

    299. Petra says:

      @ Ronnie anderson says at 7:55 pm … ”Please Share.”

      http://www.facebook.com/search/top/?q=bbc%20protest%20event

      Ronnie it’s not showing up.

    300. Fred says:

      If Pacific Quay was doing its job, government ministers should be crapping themselves at the thought of coming to Scotland instead of the grovelling treatment which they’ve become accustomed to.

    301. uno mas says:

      Good to see you posting again Dr Jim!

    302. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Have been tweeted the following by @WinoGentry which may be of interest to those attending the BBC demo on Saturday:

      ‘If you do go, switch off your mobile phone before you arrive – deny Box 500 the opportunity to tag & monitor your comms with covert IMEI sweeps – if you support Scottish Indy you’re a threat to the British State, so a legitimate target under CT legislation. What we did in NI.’

    303. Bobp says:

      Dr jim. Love your posts along with proud cybernats.

    304. Bobp says:

      Sassenach 1.23pm. I dont think the problem in scotland is with english BORN people living in Scotland. I think the problem is with english tory/no voting colonialists moving to Scotland.

    305. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      We have to start calling them out on the democracy question now.

      I am about to write to every unionist MP amd MSP and ask them if they agree to the Claim of Rights which establishes the sovereignty of the Scottish people and their right alone to chose their constitutional future and to the United Nations Charter on the Right of All People to Self Determination without interference by any other body,a central tenet of that Charter.

      Answers (or evasions) should be interesting but let us deal with this issue now

    306. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “…of interest to those attending the BBC demo on Saturday, ‘If you do go, switch off your mobile phone before you arrive'” @Ian Brotherhood says at 9:34 pm

      Also remove the battery (if you can).

      Security services have the ability to turn them on remotely without you realising.

    307. Capella says:

      More censorship. Facebook has deleted a Venezuelan news analysis site. Looks like an alternative to these global US corporations is becoming essential if internet equality is to survive.

      Nor has it gone unnoticed that Facebook recently partnered up with the Atlantic Council, a NATO-backed think tank, to “protect democracy” and root out “misinformation and foreign interference” on the platform. Venezuela’s neighbor Colombia became a NATO “global partner” in June, the first and only Latin American nation to do so.

      https://on.rt.com/9c3e

    308. schrodingers cat says:

      its like the fukcin waltons in here at the mo

      i prefer it when bob peffers slags everyone

    309. Liz g says:

      Shrodingers cat @ 10.17
      Whits up wi the Waltons….a fine family and a moral in every tail

      Are ye tryin tae give MSM ammunition…. Cybernats so horrible they would even hate the Waltons
      A vote tae bann the Watlons is fur efter indy…remember..duh!!

    310. Proud Cybernat says:

      What Thepnr said 6:48pm.

      My thoughts exactly.

      Slowly, slowly, etc, etc…

    311. Thepnr says:

      @Liz g

      A vote tae bann the Watlons is fur efter indy…remember..duh!!

      Hahaha nice one 🙂

    312. Capella says:

      The Waltons grew up to be the richest family in America. Maw n paw’s store is called Walmart.

      http://uk.businessinsider.com/how-the-waltons-spend-their-fortune-2017-7/

    313. Breeks says:

      Thepnr says:
      9 August, 2018 at 6:48 pm

      It is a video from IndycarRoss that he made yesterday, I’ve only watch a couple of his videos before but this one disappointed for a couple of reasons….

      It’s one thing to be patient when it’s your choice to be patient, but it’s a much riskier strategy to presume that everybody else has the same patience as you do.

      All the subtle innuendos and Constitutional shadow boxing might be terrifically exciting for political anoraks who take an interest, but a lot of folk are wholly disconnected with what’s going on, are close to despair, and aren’t getting an pro Indy stimulus whatsoever. IndyRef2, or Sovereignty by Constitutional edict, is going to get off to a cold and faltering start with a helluva lot of inertia and complacency to be overcome.

      Campaign? What Campaign? You don’t need to reveal your whole strategy, but FFS throw the troops a bone every now and again. There’s the delicate wee issues of morale and exasperation which should be taken seriously before it turns to sullen resentment.

      Gordon Ross is spot on. Peter Bell is spot on. Craig Murray is spot on. There is a limit to folks patience, a lot of folks are feeling tested, and right now there’s a lot of commendable restraint in the ether but frankly, it’s not being suitably commended.

      If the long October “wait-and-see” when it comes delivers yet more procrastination and indecision, well…. let’s just hope it doesn’t eh?

    314. Danny says:

      You get the feeling the whole of Scotland is in limbo at the moment.

      Even the BBC Protest has been ignored by a lot of hardcore Indy supporters.

      Until Nicola fires the startin’ gun, this feeling of hesitancy will continue.

      It is not that anyone is turning their back on Indy, it is just a natural human reaction we have when there is no target in front of us to aim at.

      This is a good thing, because when we finally get the date for IndyRef2 we will fire out the starting blocks like a bat out of hell.

      God help the unionists who try to get in our way.

    315. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Thepnr (6.48) –

      Just caught up with previous comments.

      Thanks for taking the time to transcribe those section and laying out your considered criticisms.

      It seems that almost everyone has a slightly different take on what is or should be happening, but very few of us have any real leverage on the current course of events (which, in itself, is surely a microcosm of the constitutional arrangement?).

      I like Indycar’s stuff a lot, especially when he puts the boot into Mundell, but he sometimes comes across as too trusting in his ‘sources’. No matter how highly-placed those sources may be, they can’t be any higher than the UK’s PM and Scotland’s FM, and, let’s face it, even *they*, or The City don’t appear to know what the fuck’s going on overall.

      As you say, Gordon is entitled to voice exasperation. Where it becomes problematic is when he *appears* to be talking on behalf of others: what others?; how many does he know personally?; what % of the indy-movement do they constitute?; what will they do if Nicola doesn’t act as they wish?

      The Tories have been digging this big Brexit-shaped hole for years now, and nothing seems to affect their determination to keep going. Why on earth would any indy-supporter want to stop them? Let them carry on, while giving the Scottish electorate the occasional reminder of NS’s caveat about ‘changed circumstances’…

      Yes, we should wait. Not because we have to, but because we want to, having identified the most favourable outcome. What some, like Gordon, are describing as ‘frustration’ could and perhaps should be interpreted as a sign of impending success.

      ‘Hold!..Hold!…Hold!….Hold!’ an aw that jazz…

      😉

    316. sinky says:

      Sky News on about Chief Constable and state of British policing.
      When will London Broadcasters understand devolution has existed for 20 years.
      This is what Yes supporters are up against when bulk of media in UK distorts Scotland’s news.

    317. Jim says:

      They, the yoons, are definitely losing their grip on reality.
      I have had an account with the BBC for years for my sins and used to like debating on their HYS although the letter limit is quite frustrating although but maybe understandable.

      Anyway, I discovered although maybe I was being naive to start with, multiple user accounts spewing unionist propaganda, one or two even forgetting that people were watching as the comments they posted under a certain name, also changed as they posted another comment using another alias.

      After a while of reporting this, I found that I was no longer able to post, i.e, posting something and waiting, yet nothing appearing whilst others continued posting at will with seemingly no problem as to their content appearing in the thread.

      Now it seems I am banned from posting as nothing I post appears on HYS.

      I have tried using a VPN and registering another account but to no avail as my posts do not appear even after the period of moderation as to whether the comment breaks their house rules so can only imagine that, no matter if I use a VPN, they have my IP logged somehow and my posts will not appear.

      As I have said, they must be losing their shit, 1: if they feel the need to allow multiple user accounts for Yoons which only proves how little support they now have an 2: they feel the need to silence the views of one person.

      Big brother got here sooner than I thought, Wings and the likes of Alex Jones, no matter what you think of said Jones, have something in common, as they have both been silenced for views that do not match the propaganda of the established powers that be.

      Jones has been silenced for now but Mr Campbell is a clear and present danger to the Union and I pray that he keeps safe as it can only escalate and he needs to be extremely wary of this fact.

    318. Thepnr says:

      @Breeks

      If you’ve been paying attention then I’m sure you will have noticed that the MSM love nothing more than to pronounce that the FM is “hesitating” or changing her mind over Indyref2.

      No she’s not, it’s always been the case that when “Brexit is clear” she will outline her plans for another referendum. This from March 2017.

      “As I set out earlier this week, we are not proposing a referendum now – we are proposing to give the people of Scotland a choice once Brexit is clear but before it is too late.”

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39292049

      Well Brexit is far from clear at the moment and if it is CLEAR by October then I g=fully expect Nicola Sturgeon to reveal those plans for a second referendum.

      The real point of my earlier post though was this. It was talk of the Yes movement “fragmenting” if we don’t get a date by October. What kind of horseshit is this?

      Where is the commitment?

      Does anyone really believe that most people still active in the Yes movement would abandon their positions because Brexit isn’t clear and we don’t have a date?

      Well I’d guess there are some that feel that way though I’m not one of them. I’ll give 100% support to gaining Scotland’s Independence from now until another referendum is called and then I’ll give 150%.

      I want us to win next time, giving up because you may disagree with the timing is not in my DNA.

      Get in there with the head down when the pipes are played.

    319. Robert Peffers says:

      @sassenach says: 9 August, 2018 at 1:23 pm:

      ” … I came to Scotland 59 years ago, and spent my working life educating children in Scottish state schools. My own family are all Scottish born (and we are all SNP members).

      You make a great point, sassenach, and illustrate it with personal experience. The SNP, even in the years when they were being portrayed in the MSM as akin to a terrorist organisation, were at heart an inclusive movement. If they had not been so I most certainly would not have supported them.

      They didn’t have an easy job weeding out the more militant factions and I, even as a boy, always suspected a lot of the more aggressive actions were being orchestrated by,”The Establishment”, agents. Down at the grass roots the SNP was always law abiding and democratic. It opposed the Establishment but did so legally and democratically.

      As for Blair, this present instance is not the first time he has pushed this daft idea of banning anyone he classes as ethnically non-Scottish by birth from voting in a country they may have chosen to live in most of their lives.

      Well I’ve been around Scotland a fairly long time and I know of few Scots with a totally Scottish family history.

      My own two Grandmothers were of Irish descent. One a, Rielly and Catholic and the other a Macquire and Protestant, but the male Peffers line has been directly traced back to the mid 1600s. The name itself is derived from old Scots term peffer which means a flat area of land between two rivers. As indeed Strathpeffer is.

      One thing, for sure, was that those two marriages insured there was absolutely no sectarianism in my family and little tolerance for sectarianism by any family members. Racism too was off the agenda and three of my aunts married English men. These ladies had gone to London and become Civil Servants due to a lack of good job opportunities for better educated females in the Scotland they were born in. Scotland’s greatest export has always been her peoples.

      Anyway, I’m digressing from what I set out to say.

      I see a sea change through the years of how Scottish nationalism is viewed by such as the EU member states. It used to be that the SNP were viewed as rebellious and disruptive element against the United Kingdom/British state.

      Now Europe sees the SNP as a great force for European Unity and it is The Westminster Establishment Europe now sees as the rebellious and disruptive element.

      Would that have been the case if the SNP/SG were attempting to bar other than Scots born people from voting in independence referendums? I think not and, going by the fact Blair gets little support for his racist views here on Wings proves the point there is little support for that view.

      I believe it would prove counter productive and many life long indy supporters would leave the party.

    320. Robert Peffers says:

      @schrodingers cat says: 9 August, 2018 at 10:17 pm:

      ” … its like the fukcin waltons in here at the mo
      i prefer it when bob peffers slags everyon.”

      Hey1 You! I don’t slag everyone off. Only those, whether by intent or by malice, advocate things that are bad for the indy movement.

      The fact is we know that the Establishment have always had plants in any movement that is contrary to the Establishment’s views and actions. Whatever makes you think they have none on Wings? (I mean besides the obvious low level numpties).

      Believe me I’ve met more than a few in my 50 odd years as an Industrial Civil Servant with a Scottish independence supporting background.

      Matter of fact I was, more than once tipped off by people in upper management positions to be careful as I was under surveillance for some particular thing or other.

    321. Juan says:

      For those who are impatient (aren’t we all), take part in local Yes groups, be sure and go to marches encouraging others to do likewise and definitely be at the Anti propaganda demo outside the BBC/STV HQ’s on Saturday.

      As SOVEREIGN Scots we don’t need to wait on any politician. We can surely excercise our Claim of Right, without the permission of any politician. What’s to stop a Sovereign Scot signing a Declaration to Dissolve the Union Now and having others do so if they agree? Collect 2.7 million signatures (of Scots (regardless of origin of birth)living in Scotland and deliver two copies. One to Holyrood (or Nicola) and the other to Westminster (Mayhem). Declarations would have to be verifiable. Even if Westminster ignore it, Nicola couldn’t. She’d have to call the referendum but would do so knowing there’s already a majority in favour. Even if this takes months to plan and execute, we’d be promoting independence among our fellow Scots and keeping busy. Idle hands and all that.

      I’m not pretending to have all the details worked out how this would be done. It’s just a suggestion. We have over 100,000 SNP members and a grassroots infrastructure itching to do something.

      If you’re tired of waiting, and have a better idea or workable solution to how Sovereign Scots can excercise our Sovereign will, I’m sure I’m not the only one that would love to hear it and if it’s plausible, help make it happen. What’s wrong with going door to door asking people to sign?

    322. Daisy Walker says:

      Dr Jim, so glad you haven’t left us.

      Cactus, your last comment was brill.

      O/T

      How much oil do we export? How much oil do we use?

      If we export more than we use, then pay international rates for our fuel… How does this compute.

      Be like growing your own spuds, giving them away, then buying Sainsbury’s UJ bagged tatties at 3 x the price. WTF.

      Scotland trades 4 x as much with England than it does with EU.

      God knows how England will pay for anything without Scotland’s oil and gas, but never the less. How do we start to tackle this one.

      If we can’t do it with one fact, we need to do it with Chinese drip drip (fact) methods, and we need to do that now. And we need to be realistic, some organisations either cannot, or will not.

      So its on us. And our target audience is in Scotland. Know your audience, we have a natural affinity with shite case scenarios.

      Peace and love folks. We are not there yet, but we are close. Dig in.

    323. Macart says:

      Thepnr is correct in his quotation of the First Minister’s statement on a future referendum. It’s pretty much also a description the mandate to hold one too. No. 10 has to declare a final date and deal/no deal scenario with a clear, unambiguous intent to take Scotland’s population out of the EU without our consent. Not nearly. Not threatens to, but signed, sealed and ready to deliver.

      I’d say THAT constitutes a MATERIAL change in circumstances. THAT constitutes the mandate caveat sought in the SNPs manifesto. A specific circumstance named and permission sought of the population to carry through an action. The numbers of MPs/MSPs allow for the action to be carried through. The greater the number, the easier it is to legislate for and act upon. If the conditions of the circumstance aren’t met? You can fill in the rest. It’s back to plan B and slowly, gradually, building consensus the hard way. Scotgov only acts on the permissions sought from and given by the electorate.

      Yeah, scary as hell and frustrating doesn’t begin to cover it, but it’s where we are.

      Given the economic and political situation UK gov currently finds itself in (which is to say biblically bad), it kinda lets you know why No.10 have been a tad vague though, yes? Why that can keeps getting kicked further down the road at each time of asking? They’re fully aware that the nanosecond outcomes are clarified, a whole new can of worms opens up in both N.I. and Scotland. They’re attempting to narrow that window of time for the devolved legislatures and at the same time buy themselves a little extra with the EU.

      Beyond that, it’s not just a matter of calling a referendum. It’s a matter of winning one. The timing to fulfill that mandate will, as can be seen from the current actions of UK gov, be tight. A tough call to make if you’re in the FM’s position I’d say. A helluva balancing act.

    324. Breeks says:


      Thepnr says:
      9 August, 2018 at 11:23 pm
      @Breeks

      …….it’s always been the case that when “Brexit is clear” she will outline her plans for another referendum. This from March 2017

      Yes, but for many folks Brexit, and the subjugation of Scotland’s Remain vote have been clear enough since 2016. For some, like me, there is no Brexit deal whatsoever that is acceptable. I do not require forensic explicit knowledge of Westminster’s detailed proposals. By definition, those proposals embrace leaving Europe, and bang! – that’s already a deal breaker.

      When we hold the winning hand, as we are led to believe we do with Scottish Sovereignty, why don’t we just seal the deal and win? What are we waiting for? Why are we waiting for it? Why are we still talking about a referendum? Why isn’t Scotland seizing the initiative and putting obstructions in Theresa May’s path?

      If, God forbid, and may the Earth open upand swallow us, but IF we somehow screw this up and fail to secure our Independence, we willlook back on 2016 – 2018 and ask ourselves what more we could have done. The list will make for some uncomfortable reading.

      I accept that Nicola Sturgeon is vexed about Brexit, yes, diligent, fully engaged and fully focussed, but a great many of us knew enough about Brexit to cross our personal Rubicon in 2016. Seeing the final, final, Brexit Deal written in blood on parchment is just unnecessary. Brexit means expulsion from Europe, ergo Brexit is unworkable and there is no last ditch delicate compromise to evaluate. Why do insist there might be?

    325. Ghillie says:

      Breeks, I’m guessing that not enough people feel the way you do, and I do and many many folk do…YET.

      But it is coming =)

    326. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ lovely ladies Dorothy and Daisy ~

      Here’s a lovely link for yee’s.

      Summer Nights:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPUb4Wsi9kI

      It’s TGI FFS Friday. 🙂

      Love 24/7.

    327. Golfnut says:

      @ Breeks and Macart.

      I have a lot of sympathy for the FM, the pressure must be enormous. Balancing good governance, while at the same time wrestling with probably the most malicious and incompetent government ever elected in the UK.

      But, the people of Scotland’s expressed will by Referendum is that we stay in the EU, our Parliament has backed that position and by a majority our MP’s at Westminster have opposed Westminsters withdrawal bill.

      We will never get clarity from Westminster on just how bad leaving the EU will be, and the media have failed miserably to do its day job by reporting honestly on what’s been happening, do we really think that that situation will improve, I certainly don’t.

    328. Nana says:

      A north-east project could be the “stepping point” to begin large-scale use of technology to reduce carbon emissions in the UK, according to its manager.
      http://archive.is/78iZn

      https://peterabell.blog/2018/08/09/the-habit-of-malice/

      Why should Remain-voting Scotland back a Leave plan that even Brexiteers don’t support? // @AlexSalmond
      https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/1027571742624178177

      https://infacts.org/nothing-funny-about-mays-cold-war-with-edinburgh/

    329. Cactus says:

      Mornin’ Ghillie ~

      Aye have a summer song for you x.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFNZtubvc5Y

      Starring Ronald Villiers on Latin Harp. 🙂 🙂

      Have a great day y’all.

    330. sinky says:

      Good article in Herald by Kenny Macaskill saying yes supporters would be far better knocking on doors and finding out individuals concerns on Indyref then addressing them rather than marching or staging BBC protests.

      10000 door knockers would make a real difference

    331. Dorothy Devine says:

      Morning Nana and thank you for my breakfast reading – it may be my evening reading as I have been on Granny duties for 24 hours with more to come.

      Cactus , thank you – that fair woke me up, particularly as I had Olivia and John in my head because of the title!That is some guitarist!

      Macart, the very thought of Strip the Willow fills me with aching bones , general dizziness and exhaustion!
      Can I no just stick to the sedate Eightsome reel?

    332. Fred says:

      Brexit will of course be catastrophic but the punters on the street have not swallowed this fact YET or it would show in the polls. We could even have a scenario that the choice is between Indy or Boris?
      Nicola will wait till she sees the whites of their eyes. Stop pullin at the lead like a good dug!

    333. Fred says:

      @ Nana, thanks for the Scottish Steel link. Liberty House saved Dalzell & also the Lochaber smelter, previous owner Rio Tinto intended to close this. Now Mr Gupta is already intending to maximise power production at the Kinlochleven dam, is building a massive windfarm in the Monadhliath for green-steel & plans an alloy-wheel production enterprise beside the Lochaber Smelter. All good news & real jobs in Lochaber & Lanarkshire!

    334. Nana says:

      Good morning Fred. As you say, it’s all good news.

      Here’s something that gave me a wee boost. These voting boards have appeared at the Black isle show, Turriff show and other events around Scotland. The ones I’ve seen have all shown similar results

      Orkney
      https://twitter.com/HelenArmet/status/1027569754138202112

      Islay
      https://twitter.com/Feorlean/status/1027657880537903105

      One more link

      CBI urges government to drop ‘blunt target’ on immigration numbers
      http://archive.is/57idm

    335. Highland Wifie says:

      Morning Nana.
      Those links to the voting boards at agricultural shows are very encouraging. Reality starting to sink in more widely I hope.
      I’m feeling the frustration of everyone who’s expressing impatience at the lack of action at the moment. It’s the calm before the storm. We just need to keep the eyes on the ball and be prepared for what’s coming.
      Oh and go boost the numbers at every protest/march possible starting with the BBC on Saturday.

    336. Ghillie says:

      Cactus @ 7.36 am

      That is so lovely!

      Very needed and appreciated right now. Thank you xx

      Have left it up for my sons to hear =)

      Worth a listen a folks 🙂

    337. brewsed says:

      Thanks Nana for all the links.
      The voting boards could / should catch on.

    338. Macart says:

      @ Dorothy Devine

      🙂

      @ Nana

      Cheers Nana. Another good crop.

    339. Lenny Hartley says:

      Breeks @ 05.53 am. Whilst us Yes anoracks are impatient to get the firing gun started on Indyref2 There is still half off the country against Independence. It would be folly to go before we and the voting public know how Brexit is going to affect us. There is plenty of time before the mandate expires, I see Gordon Ross is talking pish again saying that the Yes movement will fracture if there is not a decision this October, gave up listening to him when he said that to sweeten the deal with the RUk (peffer alert!) we should give all our oil to them. I trust Nicola will with the advice of some of the best political brains in the UK if not Europe will choose the best time so that we Win and not moan on Wings for another generation about how she got the timing wrong.

    340. Nana says:

      @Highland Wifey
      I’ve seen one or two boards at SNP stalls asking questions on Brexit.
      Here’s one from last weekend in Elgin
      https://twitter.com/ElginSNP/status/1025738312173215744

      @brewsed you are welcome and yes I agree the boards are a good idea. A simple way to start conversations, answering concerns while gauging patterns.

    341. jfngw says:

      @Dr Jim

      You will need to do more than change your IP address, lots of sites now use profiling to identify individuals, I don’t know if the BBC go to this level. I would start by clearing out all the BBC cookies in your cache. Other do things like collect information regarding the hardware in your computer (screen resolution).

      I keep a separate browser that clears out the cookie cache every time it is closed. Allows you to read certain sites that restrict access to a few stories a month.

      If you want better anonymity try using Tails on a USB stick rather than Windows (or any ordinary operating system).

    342. Nana says:

      Morning Macart 🙂

      My last comment should read “while gauging voting patterns”

      One more link for now

      http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2018/08/10/news/concerns-raised-about-border-stop-and-search-zone-1404017/

    343. Petra says:

      Great links this morning Nana, and many positive, from a Tory joining the SNP to the steel situation to the voting boards.

      We’re getting there folks. Have patience and faith in Nicola Sturgeon. Scotland means more to Westminster than leaving the EU, for without us and out of the EU England is well and truly scuppered. Nicola has to make a move when the time is right, not a second beforehand as Westminster WILL no doubt have a plan B, a plan B in place to demolish hers.

      All we can do, in support of Nicola / the Independence cause, is to continue to attempt to convert others on here and in the real world, in the shops, streets and pubs etc. Use banners, posters and fliers (and a wee coloured book, hopefully).

      And when the time comes there should be exit polls, the Polish media bias monitoring group in place and the use the Northern Irish postal voting system. Add to that a five year residency franchise, a ban on holiday home owners voting and we’re home and dry.

      ……………………….

      NIrish voting system:

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-systems-in-Northern-Ireland

      …………………………….

      For example this is the the form that you have to fill in if you want a postal vote or to appoint a proxy to vote on your behalf (in this case if you are disabled). The only acceptable reasons for not voting at a polling station relate to disability, employment or education.

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/getmedia/2b6668fd-6ceb-4fb1-b315-09f6dde3b1b8/Indefinite-Absent-Vote-Disability-Website-CURRENT-FORM_1

      …………………….

      When you vote at a polling station you will be required to produce one of the following documents (with photograph) to confirm your identity:

      A UK, Irish or EEA driving licence (photographic part) (provisional accepted)

      A UK, Irish or EU passport (note: EU passports are not accepted at UK Parliamentary elections)

      An Electoral Identity Card

      A Translink Senior SmartPass

      A Translink 60+ SmartPass

      A Translink War Disabled SmartPass

      A Translink Blind Person’s SmartPass

      http://www.eoni.org.uk/Vote/Voting-at-a-polling-place



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