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How to turn kids into racists

Posted on August 18, 2018 by

Several right-wing media outlets, including the Scotsman, the Scottish Daily Mail and a far-right Unionist website called the Unity News Network have in recent days picked up on the findings of a newly-published study commissioned by the Scottish Government on young people’s attitudes towards immigration.

To give you a flavour of the Unity News Network, it was most recently seen making a Facebook post that captioned a fascinating colour video of London in 1924 with the words “Before Sadiq Khan, Before Terrorism, Before Acid Attacks, Before Moped Gangs, Before Mass Immigration…. Who wants Britain to go back to that time?”

(Some sample reader replies include: “How wonderful, we want our country back” and “It wasn’t the murder capital of the western world then I wonder why it changed was it a black cloud that descended on it?” For perspective on that claim, London recorded 80 murders in the first six months of 2018, compared to 141 in New York.)

And yet UNN still managed to put the least racist spin on the story.

Because it only headlined its piece with the (accurate) stat that 30% of Scottish teens want immigration reduced. The two supposedly grown-up newspapers both chose to lead with a highly distorted suggestion that “two-thirds” of young Scots were hostile to immigration – something they achieved by adding together the numbers who wanted immigration cut with those who were perfectly content with the current levels.

The Mail went with “a total of 65 per cent are against further growth in the numbers of people moving to the UK”, while the Scotsman’s line was “Almost two-thirds of Scottish teenagers think immigration levels should be cut or remain the same as they are now, according to official research”.

But why would you bracket people wanting no change with people wanting change? There’s no logical justification for doing so, any more than there is for spinning it the other way. The actual figures are:

Keep the current amount of immigration: 35%
Less immigration: 30%
More immigration: 15%
Don’t know: 20%

Most media coverage of polling excludes Don’t Knows, so each of the following is an equally arithmetically-legitimate way to report the findings:

“HALF OF SCOTS TEENS REJECT IMMIGRATION CUTS”
(Because 50% want the same amount or more)

“NEARLY TWO-THIRDS OF SCOTS TEENS REJECT IMMIGRATION CUTS”
(Because the above figure becomes 62.5% if you exclude DKs, and in a media world where 38% is “almost half” that’s definitely close enough to two thirds)

“MOST SCOTS TEENS REJECT IMMIGRATION CUTS”
(Because the “winning” option in the poll is “Keep it the same”)

“ONLY 30% OF SCOTS TEENS WANT IMMIGRATION CUTS”
(Because the other seven in ten didn’t say they did.)

Or to be the most balanced, factual and fair of all, of course, you could simply go with “SCOTS TEENS SPLIT ON IMMIGRATION”.

Readers might therefore justifiably find themselves wondering why the Scotsman and the Mail have decided to use the formulation that makes young Scottish people appear the most anti-immigrant. Because at least with the Unity News Network it’s pretty much out in the open.

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    1. 18 08 18 14:56

      How to turn kids into racists | speymouth

    195 to “How to turn kids into racists”

    1. Proud Cybernat says:

      Thank fuck there are only two Scots teenagers who read the Daily Mail & the Scotsman. And they only picked them up for their grans.

    2. Kenny says:

      Because that lets them slowly build the narrative of Scotland as at least as racist and xenophobic as England. The glee with which unionists celebrated any research of that nature in 2014 continues now. They desperately want to prove that firstly we’d all vote UKIP if we didn’t have the even more insular and racist SNP to vote for, and secondly that Nats especially hate all inabootcomers, especially the hated English. It’s mostly a lot of pish, but what else do you expect from the Great British Media?

    3. Seepy says:

      Looking at the stats, the 16-17 age group (who have the vote) are more likely to be positive about immigration. Younger children (more susceptible to media reporting?) and children from more deprived areas have less favourable views. Let’s hope that these stats can be improved over time by better education on how important immigration still is to the Scottish economy.

    4. Geordie says:

      Yes, the ‘why’ is the most obvious aspect to this so-called journalism. Because these papers ALWAYS have an agenda lurking in the background and a purpose to a headline. Right-wing anti-immigration is an obvious starter for 10, but in Scotland it can usually be traced back to anti-Independence pro British nationalism at the core.

    5. Foonurt says:

      Thae unionist erses, tryin tae turn yoan Scoattish young yins’ heids.

      Iz thae, tenn tae bae fur Scoattish Independence.

    6. Dr Jim says:

      Go to any childrens nursery
      Children don’t see the colour of other kids faces when they’re playing with the coloured toys so who tells them when they grow up they’ll still like the colours but they’ll hate the people with the coloured faces

      See you don’t have to like other people if you don’t want to but there’s a big difference from when the hate part comes in

      Indigenous peoples throughout the world learned to fear the white man because they knew they were at risk of being killed by them, it seems a lot of white people haven’t learned we’re actually the baddies here

      Mostly!

    7. Gary45% says:

      Proud Cybernat@12.46
      They actually try and make paper aeroplanes out of them, but find they keep crashing.(shot down)

    8. HandandShrimp says:

      Who can spot their racist Brexity agenda 🙂 🙂 🙂

      The press really are the worms of our souls.

    9. CameronB Brodie says:

      I wouldn’t be surprised if Scots teenagers are turning against immigration. The press and media have been selling somewhat racist English/British cultural exceptionalism, for a while now. Just watch the paper reviews on the BBC or Sky, for example. Or do you think Farage and UKIP were honestly given due representation on the BBC, prior to the Brexit vote?

      Media impact on natives’ attitudes towards immigration

      Abstract

      The raise of negative attitudes towards immigration in the last few years is an undiscussed truth. Several theories on the determinants of sentiments towards immigrants exist and have been empirically tested. A first explanation states that natives oppose immigration because they perceive immigrants as potential competitors in the labour market; a second theory states that anti-immigration attitudes are based on the belief that immigrants represent a net welfare burden for the country. Other theories focus more on cultural and ideological explanations, such as the diffusion of cosmopolitan outlooks or the deepness of traditional values. However, although it is widely believed that media influences individuals’ attitudes towards migration, little conclusive evidence has been produced to this effect.

      Based on data from the ESS, the Standard Eurobarometer survey and the Dow Jones Factiva database, this study provides evidence that media has a strong power in shaping people attitudes: both individual level and country level analyses show that the amount of time spent in news reading about political and current affairs and the overall amount and content of news on immigration published by national media in each country are significantly related to immigration attitudes. However, the relationship between natives’ attitudes and news on immigration involves some endogeneity problems, since the direction of the causality is unclear. This study shows that natives’ perceptions depend significantly on the presence of other newsworthy events, which are clearly unrelated to sentiments towards immigration such as the Olympic Games or natural and technological disasters, but crowd out news on immigration. I argue that this is evidence of the persuasive power of media in shaping natives’ perceptions.4

      https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e7d5/ef9f049d1a34829c957ff51be1a70c6fd234.pdf

      Media and Their Role in Shaping Public Attitudes Towards Migrants
      https://gcm.unu.edu/publications/articles/media-and-their-role-in-shaping-public-attitudes-towards-migrants.html

      Identity, Belonging and the Role of the Media in Brexit Britain

      Abstract

      Since the referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU, there has emerged a highly controversial picture of Britain as deeply polarised along racial, ethnic, class, geographical and generational lines. Crucial to this much debated image is the idea that the ‘white working class’, and particularly older generations of people, living in post-industrial areas of Britain were motivated to vote Leave because they are anti-immigration and dissatisfied with the loss of national sovereignty; this is in contrast to the younger middle class ‘cosmopolitan elite’ that reside in the South East of England and who are thought to represent the pro-Remain camp.

      While much of the scholarly attention on Brexit has focused on competing narratives in the media and debates amongst political elites, little attention has been paid ethnographically to everyday experiences of post-Brexit UK. Our aim is to explore with a diversity of research participants from a wide range of different social backgrounds what they think about questions of immigration, local, national and European belonging in the face of Britain’s exit from the EU. To do this we will conduct ethnographic research with residents from different geographical areas across England (the North East, the South West and the East Midlands) and from differing ethnic, migration, age, national, religious and class backgrounds. The fieldwork will include in-depth interviews with family members and within broader social networks to explore how research participants’ attitudes are shared and reproduced (or not) within families, across generations, amongst friendship networks and neighbours. Emphasis will be put on the ways in which individuals across differing identities and geographical locations share similar or contrasting views on questions of immigration and national belonging, and attention will be paid to the differing emotional registers that shape people’s engagements with what it means to belong or not to Britain and Europe.

      Because the media has become inseparable from political and social processes our ethnographic study is especially innovative in its exploration of how everyday uses of the media frame people’s attitudes on these issues. Our contention is that to understand the role of the media in informing people’s views on immigration, belonging and identity, we need to understand what the media narratives on Brexit are, and how people deploy these narratives (or not) in their everyday discussions. To do this, we will conduct a quantitative media content analysis to identify themes, images, tone and frames in the media coverage (including television news, local and national newspapers and Twitter) from the time of the referendum campaign to the present day. This media analysis will afford a broad contextual landscape within which to position individuals’ views on immigration and belonging. We will also introduce selected media narratives into our fieldwork interviews and discussions allowing us to explore the types of knowledge individuals mobilise to engage with diverse media representations on Brexit. This process will be contextualised within participant observation of individuals’ daily media practices with a focus on practices relating to news on Brexit and its outcomes.

      Our findings will inform: a) strategies implemented by local organisations to tackle social polarisation and inequality within the fieldsites; b) national government policies on social cohesion and migration; c) media and parliamentary debates about the role of the media on influencing public understanding and democractic processes especially in the current ‘post-factual’ and fragmented media environment; d) debate with British publics on issues of immigration, national and European belonging and the role of the media in shaping public opinion on Brexit. These are issues that resonate internationally given the growing global sense of profoundly shifting political and media landscapes.

      https://gtr.ukri.org/projects?ref=ES%2FR005133%2F1

    10. Robert Peffers says:

      “Make the lie big, keep it simple, keep saying it and eventually they will believe it,”. This quote is attributed to the Third Reich’s propaganda supremo, Dr Joseph Goebbels.”

      It says it all really.

    11. CameronB Brodie says:

      P.S. I hope folk noticed that the University of Exeter study views Brexit as an English affair. It is, after all, so why should Scots have the quality of their social environment undermined as a consequence of English concerns. Such questions don’t bother the Prime Minister though, who expects Scotland’s support. Bizarre conduct or an internalised sense of superiority, from a woman who’s action suggest she is deeply hostile to cultural/racial difference.

    12. Jack Murphy says:

      OT. All Under One Banner [AUOB] March and Rally from Dundee—Camera 2 film has now been ARCHIVED and is available to watch here—-beginning up in Baxter Park down to Magdalen Green.

      Just over one and a half hours.

      Independence Livestream:
      Camera 2 :
      https://livestream.com/IndependenceLive/AUOBDundee2018-second-camera/videos/179075999

    13. Danny says:

      Talking of racists, Nigel Farage is going to tour “The Country” and hold rallies to remind people that Leave means Leave.

      He told Sky News this morning that “We voted to become an Independent Country…”

      And watch out for the SNP getting kicked down the pecking order for any future BBC “Question Time” programmes to make way for their Nige.

      I think Nigel needs to explain which “Country” he is talking about.

      Maybe our resident historian Mr Peffers could enlighten him.

    14. Ken MacColl says:

      The “Scottish” Daily Mail and the “Scottish” Daily Express hardly surprise us with their presentation of Scottish news stories. Both consistently represent their news through a mist of extreme right wing views and have done so over decades.The Mail was a regular apologist for Mosley and the British fascists and the Express was a champion of the now wholly discredited Edward 8th and his coterie of Nazi sympathisers.
      Sad to see the once respected Scotsman confirming its descent into the same company but it is merely confirming a lurch that was started several years ago when editorial control landed on the desk of the diminutive arch unionist Andrew Neil. Present circulation figures suggest a publication teetering on the brink of extinction and who really cares?

    15. Breeks says:

      They turn our Nationalism into fascism.
      They turn our hospitals into crisis centers.
      They turn our resources into debts.
      They turn our hopes into despair.
      They turn our European friends into aliens.
      They turn our democracy into antidemocracy.
      They turn our football supporters into sectarians.
      They turn our history into myth.
      They turn their myths into our history.
      They turn our seas into dead zones.
      They turn our hillsides into wastelands.
      They turn our children into dullards.
      They turn our elderly and sick into parasites.

      Now they are turning our kids into racists?

      God help us escape this loathsome affliction of a Union and free us all from these poisonous, malignant propagandists forever.

    16. Foonurt says:

      Iz Rev. Stuart pitsit, wae huv tae mak wurr ane heidlines, fae union guff.

      CameronB Brodie – ah wee bit licht readin!

    17. Proud Cybernat says:

      Our Father…

      https://i.imgur.com/JPeTQdt.png

    18. Shinty says:

      Thanks Jack, I’ll have to wait and hopefully see it tomorrow on youtube. Tried to watch livestream earlier but it just buffers constantly.

      Well done to all who organised and attended today – looks like a great turnout.

      Saw the UKOK turnout, please tell me these ‘moonie’ posters were photoshopped and fake news.

    19. jfngw says:

      Well I suppose since all their project fear stories have turned to dust they need to go even lower. I expect the unionist side to use this type of propaganda during the next indy campaign, they have nothing else.

      It is actually quite amusing, in 2014 they said you can’t use the pound. In 2019 I suspect they may be claiming we should be using the pound. But why would we bond ourselves with something that looks like it could be a failing currency. Funny how Tories didn’t want the Euro as you lost the freedom of exchange rates, etc. But some are keen on worldwide cryptocurrencies that you have virtually no control over.

      Personally I’m going to try and stick to the positives, what are we losing by leaving the EU, a lot more than remaining in the UK as far as I can see. Don’t let them drag us into the propaganda pit of negativity, drive our own agenda, rather than just responding to theirs.

    20. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Aye, this is just a trial outing for the next big anti-indy strategy – playing the racist card.

      They see that a number of former yes voters went overboard for Brexit because of concerns about immigration – concerns boosted by Leave and the likes of their “Turks getting into the EU” lie, plus the usual suspects in the right-wing media – and they hope to lever that split with new assaults. And who better to turn on first but the young, the ones most likely to vote for indy/EU?

      You would think that no-one who well recognises the media lies about indy Scotland could possibly be fooled by the xenophobic lies they retail otherwise, but it seems there are some, alas. It’s a Pavlov dog whistle for them.

      Prepare for this one to be big come IR2. It’s going to be dirty, since the BritNats have nothing else left.

    21. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      jfngw @ 14:42,

      Snap!

      Though if we time it right, it will be “choose indy to keep open the chance to remain in the EU until we can choose for ourselves”.

      If we wait after March.2019, the mandate for IR2 effectively expires with it. There will be a widespread sigh and a weary acceptance that what is done is done, so quit moaning on about it.

    22. robertknight says:

      Preaching to the converted, surely. Those who read such piss-soaked rags no doubt already subscribe to the idea that all the problems endured by the great Yookay of Great Britain & British Ulster will be resolved when the Johnny Foreigners are turned away and told to go live in France.

      Deluded…

    23. Derick fae Yell says:

      Other way around, Robert J Sutherland. If Brexit happens, and the UK leaves the Single Market as well as the EU, the mandate is triggered in April 2019, because then we will have been dragged out of the EU.

      Far from weary acceptance we then have an immediate opportunity to present independence as a positive alternative to life as a neglected province of Brexlandia. Vote Yes to join the Single Market and return to Europe.

    24. galamcennalath says:

      The narrative projected by BritNats (politicians and their supportive media) is that the SNP/Scottish Government are pro immigration so to attack that position they generate fake news which suggests people want the opposite.

      Just another SNPBaaad story. And not a very credible one because their own facts disput it!

      But hey, no BritNat ever let facts get in the way of their crude propaganda.

    25. Shinty says:

      Saw this and thought it was inspiring “Those who do not move, Do not notice their chains”

      https://twitter.com/LesleyRiddoch/status/1030792798038048770

      WARNING BTL British Nationalists frothing.

    26. mogabee says:

      So we can add scumbag and racist to those ‘newspapers’ credits?

      Bye bye papers…

    27. jfngw says:

      I’m just trying to figure out how they are going to rebrand ‘Vote No Borders’ for the next indyref, are they just going to drop the ‘No’. In fact I presume as their slogan is effectively redundant to them the indy movement can now claim to be the ‘Vote No Borders’ choice. After all it really is the only grass roots movement, no dark money, no MSM propaganda.

    28. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Derick fae Yell @ 15:24,

      I reckon my understanding of human psychology is way better than yours. There’s only so long you can keep an issue going, and once the deed is done, there will be no popular support whatever for revisiting the issue, no matter how bad in the short term it turns out. We’ll have Ruthie on steroids all over the BBC with “sit down, shut up, it’s done now, live with it”.

      It’s this wishful thinking that somehow the sunny uplands will appear all on their own accord as a consequence of bad things happening that really, really depresses me. Instead of seizing the moment while life remains in the issue, there are clearly some who just can’t wait to throw the whole dang opportunity away.

      We had a promise to have a real choice while it still mattered, and I’m not the only one who is holding the SG on account for that.

    29. galamcennalath says:

      There’s another way to consider the figures.

      More, same, and less immigration ALL mean a net flow of new arrivals into the country.

      All three positions support some level of ongoing immigration!

      NONE of the options imply that many of those questioned actually support zero net flow of new people.

      In that respect, a far right position of ‘no more immigration’ or worse, send some recent immigrants home, is being not being measured. Those opinions probably do exist, but only in a tiny minority, I’m certain.

      Saying ‘less immigration’ doesn’t actually mean anti immigration, and is nothing like as extreme as the possible far right attitudes!

    30. Robert Peffers says:

      @Derick fae Yell says: 18 August, 2018 at 3:24 pm:

      QOther way around, Robert J Sutherland. If Brexit happens, and the UK leaves the Single Market as well as the EU, the mandate is triggered in April 2019, because then we will have been dragged out of the EU.
      Far from weary acceptance we then have an immediate opportunity to present independence as a positive alternative to life as a neglected province of Brexlandia. Vote Yes to join the Single Market and return to Europe.”

      Yes, Derick fae Yell, but your mind is not clouded with, not so, hidden agendas. You have to ask yourself why would genuine indy supporters want to rush headlong into a referendum that as yet has no clear majority for a win? There is absolutely nothing that could be worse for Scotland, for independence and for a stable government of Scotland than losing yet another referendum.

      When it happens, and that choice is not, as so often portrayed in the anti-independence media attacks, all up to only Nicola Sturgeon, (the SNP does not operate in that manner). The FM is not a dictator and is more like the spokesperson for the SNP.

      Nicola has always been very clear that she requires a mandate from the entire electorate and not just from the party faithful. She has the responsibility to serve the party as the SNP Party Leader but is responsible to the whole kingdom of Scotland as the First Minister of the Scottish Parliament.

      She also has a whole host of both government civil servants and party advisors. I’d venture a guess she is the best informed leader of any party in the UK.

      The way these people urging a premature referendum would have us believe is that Nicola alone will decide if and when. It just doesn’t work like that, except, perhaps at Westminster and look where that has got us.

    31. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      galamcennalath @ 15:47,

      Ah, but propaganda works, especially if it taps into common insecurities, even if it is completely counter-factual.

      Nicola & Co have been ambivalent about the EU, so it’s hard to attack the SNP directly on those grounds. But Nicola has been very clear about the position on immigration, so that has to be the attack point. One of the headlines I caught in passing today was lambasting her directly on that point.

      The difference in SNP attitude over these two interrelated issues has continued to puzzle me, because immigration is what lies behind most of the anti-EU feeling, so if Nicola insists on making a stand on one, she loses nothing by making a stand on the other as well. And by putting immigration to the forefront as she has (nobly) done, she invites exactly the kind of pernicious attack that is now under way.

      The only surprise is that it has been a long time coming.

    32. galamcennalath says:

      Shinty says:

      WARNING BTL British Nationalists frothing.

      Wow. Isn’t it totally ironic that BritNats – Tories, UKIPers, Brexiteers, OOists, Greater England Nationalists etc etc – suggest that Scottish pro democracy activists have far right tendencies!?

      A lot of those moaning would be quite content to see a butcher’s apron in every classroom, with kids singing GSTQ, hand on heart every morning.

      It does genuinely puzzle me. Ok, we know it’s being used a cheap negative jibe. However, how many of them are so blinkered or halfwitted enough to not see the way their UK is headed? Then again, some BritNats would clearly welcome a pretty sharp right turn!

    33. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      me @ 16:12,

      Oh, and just to add, if the SNP funk this Brexit challenge as they did the UKGE in 2017, the electoral losses they incurred then will be peanuts in comparison.

      We elect the SNP for a fundamental purpose, and it isn’t to keep on running away.

    34. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 4:12 pm:

      ” …
      I reckon my understanding of human psychology is way better than yours.”

      Now why does that claim of superiority not surprise me, Robert? After all you do seem to imagine you are far, far better at judging the situation than is the First Minister of Scotland/Leader of the SNP and all the Scottish Government advisors, legal teams as well as those of the SNP and not forgetting that a very large proportion of the MPS and MSPs elected by the people of Scotland are from the legal profession.

      Yet Robert J. Sutherland, all by himself, is much better placed to judge these matters and regularly claims as much on an open forum.

      Aye!
      Richt!

      But Hey! We are all entitled to our opinions and to freely state them.

      That applies to you, Derick fae Yell and to me also.

    35. schrodingers cat says:

      nicola has an electoral mandate for indyref2 if scotland is pulled out of the eu against its will

      as yet, we are still in the eu and many people believe brexit wont happen so until it does, and we know definitively the results of the brexit negotiations, nicola doesnt have a mandate for indyref2

      pretty straight forward, i cant see why folk have a problem understanding this

    36. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 16:51,

      Please don’t get up to your old tricks of putting words into my mouth, RP. I made my comparison with one particular poster and it wasn’t Nicola, so don’t presume. (Unless she’s masquerading and you know it – oops!)

      I’m still holding on to her promise that we will have a timely choice that matters, as I’ve already made clear. I simply take exception to those who seem to disagree with her on that.

    37. JGedd says:

      I am not an absolutist about the timing of the next independence referendum. I am glad that is not my decision to make since I understand the arguments on both sides and I find both sides make a good case.

      However, one thing makes me lean towards a sooner-rather-than-later scenario and that is the relentless tide of SNPbad propaganda and anti-indy propaganda out there. The longer actual campaigning is in abeyance, I feel that the constant attacks on a daily basis have an insidious build-up of effect. It’s like death by a thousand cuts.

      As I said though, I am glad it is not my decision and as a Scottish fatalist, I will tend to accept whichever way the coin comes down. Politics is often like a game of chance and perhaps only in retrospect can people second guess what should or should not have been done.

    38. Clootie says:

      …in summary the usual crap from “Scottish” journalists following the unionist spin.

    39. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 16:51,

      As for questions of judgement, I simply ask readers to weigh up for themselves the two possibilities if we crash out with Engexit without a choice: an instant uprising of the people against the affront, or a weary acceptance of a done deal.

      Given all that has happened so far, which do you, dear reader, think is more likely?

      Look to what Ruthie did back in 2017 with the SNP on the defensive and think how bad it could be next time, if we let that happen as some clearly do.

      Forget wishful thinking and wilful axe-grinding and think about that. That’s all I ask.

    40. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 17:13,

      Nicola has several times made a solemn promise to us that we are going to have a meaningful choice. (Ie. one taken while it still matters, not one after the party is all over.)

      I don’t see why some people like you have such a problem with that.

    41. Cactus says:

      Hey kids…

      Independence callin’…

      Westminster fallin’.

      X.

    42. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 4:40 pm:

      ” … Oh, and just to add, if the SNP funk this Brexit challenge as they did the UKGE in 2017, the electoral losses they incurred then will be peanuts in comparison.”

      Oh! Aye!

      Did you mean, (when you used the Westminster Propaganda trick of shortening titles to the initial letters of UKGE), as the “United Kingdom Genera Election”, that the election that has only one purpose and one purpose only? TO ELECT A MEMBER OF THE PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM FOR WHATEVER CONSTITUENCY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM ANY PARTICULAR VOTER IS ELEGABLE TO VOTE IN,”

      “We elect the SNP for a fundamental purpose, and it isn’t to keep on running away.”

      Bloody hypocrite!

      In the first place you do not elect the SNP – You elect ONLY a MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT TO REPRESENT YOU IN A PARLIAMENT. You do not elect a political party. BTW: it is not unknown for a candidate, once elected, to jump ship from the party they were in when elected and join another party. That Great, Anglo/American, wartime Leader, “Winston Spenser Churchill did so several times.

      In practice, however, you choose that candidate according to that candidate’s promises in their manifesto and the candidate may not even officially belong to a political party and thus only have a personal manifesto.

      The point is that in the election you refer to YOU, (and lots of others), were fooled into believing that you/they were voting for some other purpose than to elect a constituency MP for some other reason.

      A UNITED KINGDOM GENERAL ELECTION could not influence anything other than to elect, “UK MPs”, because it has no other purpose than to ELECTS A MEMBER OF THE UNITED KINGDOM GOVERNMENT – and thus Robert, you blew it.

      They set out to fool you, Robert. They succeeded.

    43. sassenach says:

      schrodingers cat says:
      18 August, 2018 at 5:13 pm
      “nicola has an electoral mandate for indyref2 if scotland is pulled out of the eu against its will”

      Maybe i’m wrong (has been known!), but didn’t the original mandate say something like “….an event, FOR EXAMPLE being taken out of the EU”?

      So there are other reasons available to trigger the mandate being used, like loss of powers etc. Indyref 2 has surely never been just about the EU alone?

      However I will accept whatever Nicola decides, I trust her judgement.

    44. schrodingers cat says:

      sassenach

      possibly, but in reality the biggest issue of the day is brexit

      we need to know exactly what is happening with brexit before we jump.

      we lost ground in 2017 because of exactly that, people wanted to know what brexit actually meant, not someones predictions.

      we are looking at the possibility of another euref or more likely another general election in the next couple of months.

      we need this issue settled, clear blue water, before we launch indyref2

    45. yesindyref2 says:

      It’s all very simple really. From the SNP 2017 manifesto, easy-read version:

      Scotland’s choice
      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final
      deal is known, it is right that Scotland should
      have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not be forced on Scotland no matter
      how damaging it turns out to be.
      ” (my bold)

      Says it all, in easy to understand language.

    46. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 17:33,

      For all your customary verbiage and bluster, RP, you manage to completely miss my point. The SNP suffered a political setback in 2017 which the rest of us recognise, even if you still don’t (or won’t).

      It doesn’t matter a damn in which context it occurred, it still happened. And it certainly shook a section of the SNP quite badly, not least the WM contingent. Fact. (Staringly obvious fact, actually.)

      It’s taken until fairly recently for the party to regain its confidence, with that wee walkout of the HoC being the high point that cheered us all up, and took most SNP parliamentarians by surprise into the bargain, as they were honest enough to admit afterwards. But for some in the SNP that confidence clearly still hasn’t arrived yet.

      And please don’t call me a hypocrite. Your tendency to indulge yourself in ad hominem attacks at the drop of a hat are unworthy. There’s nothing I’ve said or you have said to justify such a vile slur. Kindly keep your cheap insults to yourself.

    47. yesindyref2 says:

      Or of course from the full version of the SNP 2017 UKGE manifesto:

      Scotland’s choice
      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      Brexit must not simply be imposed on Scotland no matter how damaging it turns out to be.

      Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate. If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future – when the time is right and the options are clear – would be democratically unsustainable.” (my bold)

      known

      That’s “known”, NOT implemented.

    48. yesindyref2 says:

      That promise from the SNP 2017 UKGE manifesto, by the way is on page 08 SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY MANIFESTO 2017 – in the section called “OUR KEY PLEDGES ”

      PLEDGES

      You can’t get more absolute than that.

      https://www.snp.org/manifesto

      Check it out!

    49. Footsoldier says:

      The SNP should be in campaign mode with answers. It is little wonder branches are struggling to get members out canvassing on the doorstep again.

      OK lets say I’m out canvassing and I knock the door of a soft No who then asks me about currency, pensions and armed forces. What answer do I give him? Official party line please.

    50. Hamish100 says:

      There was no way that the SNP could or would be able to hold onto the number of seats in the 2017 election.

      Anyone thinking that are delusional.

      They still won however.

      The First Minister is playing the correct game. Allow the tory brexiteers and tory unionists fight amongst themselves until the last minute. Why not after all.

      The choice will then be brexit or Independence. The tories will have damaged themselves. Labour are damaged and libdems are nowhere.

      The reorganised Herald, Hootsmon, Mail, Express, Sun, Record, Times, Guardian, P&J, Sunday Mail/ Post, STV, BBC, all are against us. So lets prepare ourselves.

      The choice is Brexit or Independence.

    51. boris says:

      Paisley and Liam Fox are working hand in hand with the Sri Lankan government. Voters in NI might get the chance to vote Paisley out of office but we need to keep chipping away exposing the gredd of the Tory and DUP politicians

      https://caltonjock.com/2018/08/18/liam-fox-and-ian-paisley-tarred-by-the-same-brush-the-tory-party-and-the-dup-cultivate-a-regime-of-shame-scots-should-vote-for-independence-and-get-shot-of-them/

    52. Clapper57 says:

      My post last night on a previous thread re David Byrne in two Edinburgh bars..twas a wind up…aagh I should have checked out pictures !

      If it wasn’t for those pesky young uns….etc etc

      However have it on good authority…the Ghost of Xmas past was deffo in both Royal Oak and Captains Bar on Xmas eve last year…oh yes.

    53. Schrodingers cat says:

      @dad’s

      Known. Yes. But we won’t know until October or Nov which will leave no time for indyref2 before we leave in March. Ergo it will be just after we leave. Probably may 2019

    54. galamcennalath says:

      There was a big political rally in Scotland today. Folks getting out and making their opinions known. The media is full of it! Yup, a thousand people turned up in Edinburgh today to call for a second Brexit referendum. Anything else happen, I wonder?

    55. Terence callachan says:

      The SNP did not suffer any setback in 2017 they won more seats than the rest added together get that……labour conservatives lib Dems added together had fewer seats than SNP that is a resounding win in anyone’s book but of course British nationalists presented it as a setback because SNP didn’t win every single seat like they did last time …..pardon me I think they won every single seat except two last time.
      Running scared are the British nationalists
      I looked eye to eye with the dozen or so British nationalist Union Jack waving crazies at samuels corner reform street dundee today and it was plain to see that they are weaker and quieter than the Glasgow march a few months ago , they were laughed at today in Dundee when they spotted the front of the AUOB march coming down reform street and promptly switched on their silly recording of rule Britannia ,ridiculed as the fools they are, to be honest some of them didn’t look the full shilling as they say in Dundee.

    56. Lenny Hartley says:

      Michty me, a report which was alright on misreporting Scotland showing what they reported as 16 thousand people having fun in the sun marching through Dundee!

    57. Clapper57 says:

      Met jdman today at WOS stall in Dundee…what a really nice guy…had a teeny weeny chat….nice to put a face to a name !

      Was hoping to meet Ian Brotherhood to thank him for putting my son’s football video on his twitter account …maybe next time in Edinburgh !!!

    58. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 5:21 pm:

      ” … As for questions of judgement, I simply ask readers to weigh up for themselves … “

      Well no you do not. You push very hard for several quite clearly wrong things that you claim or believe.

      I’ve stated several on this topic.

      The mandate was given to the Scottish Government – that is clearly true as the mandate was debated in the chamber and an almost unanimous agreement passed by every party in Holyrood.

      Not as you consistently aver – to Nicola Sturgeon.

      I’m not going to look it up but memory tells me only Murdo Fraser voted against it. No. matter – as the majority of MSPs accepted the mandate.

      It is thus not up to either the FM or the SNP to use it but will be up to them to put the matter to the Holyrood parliament for acceptance. Nicola has not the legal power to act like a dictator as does a UK PM.

      Furthermore the mandate given was on condition there was a material change and that change can not have taken place until the United Kingdom has actually been taken out of the EU. In theory Westminster could rule it as illegal if it was held before that material change. BTW: Holyrood could claim, correctly, that even a change in the current conditions was a material change if the UK remained in the EU but with a different set of agreed conditions, i.e. a new deal with a change in the, “Freedoms”, as they stand just now.

    59. starlaw says:

      STV had good coverage of Dundee march on their Scottish news bulletin. But Started of announcing… Tens of thousands had marched in Dundee then during the course of the bulletin stated that 6,000 ha attended… well one of them must be right.

    60. yesindyref2 says:

      @cat
      Well, Octoboer would give time for a March Ref, with ballots being on a Thursday, my favourite being 14th March 2019, the Ides of March kind of thing, working backwards makes Dec 2018 for the start of the campaign though 3 months is not absolutely neccessary, and therefore 2 months to get through the legislation before that. Plenty of time, and as for the unionists greatest fear and therefore their vain threat, that Westminster won’t “grant” a S30 order, there are reasons they probably would, and as an emergency measure as well. I’m not going into those:-)

      Howsoever, I’ve read that pledge loads of times, along with something else in the manifesto, and just clicked that what it says is “Scotland should have a choice about our future”. Pure and simple, and uncomplicated.

      And if that’s giving too much away, good, with my interest in defence, security and Intelligence (and counter-intelligence), I’m a firm believe in the phrase “confusion to our enemies”.

      And that’s all I’ll say about THAT!

    61. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 5:26 pm:

      ” … Nicola has several times made a solemn promise to us that we are going to have a meaningful choice.”

      Aye! That bit’s true.

      ” … (Ie. one taken while it still matters, not one after the party is all over.)”

      No! That bit is made up by you. No such promise has been made. In fact you contradict yourself in making it. In fact it is only now that Nicola has, (loosely), given an indication of when it will be called and even then it is when it will be called – not when the people get to vote upon it.

      Don’t take my word for it here is the official Scottish Government’s statement:-

      https://news.gov.scot/news/parliament-backs-independence-referendum

    62. yesindyref2 says:

      Those marches have got to continue, the unionists really don’t like them and are flapping around like a wind-sock in a bluster.

    63. Tam the Bam. says:

      Believe it or not Auntie actually reported a crowd estimate of 16,000!

    64. Referendum1707 says:

      Starlaw which one was was right?

    65. Meg merrilees says:

      Regarding a material change

      I think the phrase was ..’ a material change such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against her will’ ….

      but surely,
      the WM government taking the Scottish Gov to Court to contest a Bill passed in the Scottish Parliament by a cross-party majority;
      WM telling us that we cannot have a Legislative Consent Motion and that irrespective of whether we say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ both will be taken as consent;
      Mundell standing up in the H of C and saying that Scotland ‘is not an equal partner in the UK Scotland is just a part of the UK’ – breeches the terms of the treaty of Union;
      Creating the Supreme Court which is supposed to have seniority over Scots Law…

      surely anyone of these is a material change that radically alters the terms of the Treaty of Union and as such nullifies it. Therefore even without Brexit we could cite a number of material changes.

      Brexit is the strongest because it links back to broken promises after the Indy ref in 2014 but there have been some corkers since then.

      Well done to all those who marched in Dundee. Brilliant.

    66. sassenach says:

      Tam the Bam @7-16pm

      BBC Scotland website saying “SNP Stuart Hosie said 16,000 attended”.

      Interesting attempt to make it appear the SNP were in charge!!!

      Still as devious as ever are the State propagandists.

    67. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The headline in today’s “Scottish” Daily Express took my breathe away.
      They don’t usually put their lies in huge letters on the front page.

      We need a Sunday National that says “LIARS!” in huge letters across its front.

    68. Ken500 says:

      GE soon. SNP will win most of the seats. The Tories will be out. No Brexit. The only way for the Tories to get out of their mess. Then another IndyRef. Scotland’s growing away in any case.

      Great March. Good videos on the Courier.

    69. Derick fae Yell says:

      Robert Peffers

      “the mandate given was on condition there was a material change and that change can not have taken place until the United Kingdom has actually been taken out of the EU”

      EXACTLY!

      Gordon McIntyre-Kemp’s recent articles on Business for Scotland are a bit more realistic than some other views. No referendum can be called until it can’t be wrong-footed by a snap election, Brexit being canceled, Brexit being so soft it basically doesn’t happen, A50 being extended: any number of things.

      April-May 2019 is the absolute earliest that a referendum could be called.

      The minimum time, unless Labour and the Lib Dems vote for an emergency timetable (hahaha!) from a referendum being called, and the vote, is about a year. 6 months for the Bill to be passed, and 6 months to the vote.

      There won’t be a referendum, immediately, without a S30. Why would the UK Prime Minister, whoever it is by that time! grant a S30 for a referendum they’d risk losing? Not a chance. They are arrogant, and stupid – but not THAT stupid.

      So what do we do then? The Greens won’t support an unconsented referendum. The boycott tactic used by the Spanish unionists worked. Expect the same here. Things have moved on from 2012.

      Westminster can’t have it all ways. Either the Scottish Parliament is sovereign, and can hold a referendum. Or Westminster should respect the Scottish Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum (hollow laughter)

      Or, if Westminster is sovereign – a majority of Scottish MPs can hold a referendum, requesting that the JVBs, and/or Holyrood, assist in the admin.

      If that was refused, then the only democratic course left would be a direct mandate for Independence via a majority of Scottish MPs. Ireland 1918 (except with the Empire now long gone). ~
      ~
      After that, it gets a little harder.

      Sorry – that got a bit tldr. Take home point. The ‘meaningful choice’ does not include ‘Remain’, because there’s zero possibility of being independent in time.

      The option is ‘Join’, not ‘Remain’.

      Various people on here differ on what we should join. The bottom line is the Single Market A. S. A. P.

    70. yesindyref2 says:

      SNP 2016 manifesto BEFORE the EU Referendum: “material change such as …”

      SNP 2017 AFTER EU Referendum: “At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.”

      also from the 2017 SNP manifesto:

      Last year’s Holyrood election delivered the democratic mandate for an independence referendum. The recent vote of Scotland’s national Parliament has underlined that mandate.
      If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists. And, in such circumstances, any continued Tory attempts to block the people of Scotland having a choice on their future – when the time is right and the options are clear – would be democratically unsustainable.

      1. 2017 is later than 2016
      2. 35 MPs is a majority of the 59 MPs from Scotland so
      3. The SNP have a mandate for the election PLEDGE which was:

      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.

      That is totally unambiguous, and is a pledge.

    71. Cactus says:

      They are in the bar…. that’s where ahm lookin like’

      Aye ahm lookin’ frae afar.

      Fuckin’ Dundee.

      Ahm in the ivy.

      Boozy Cow.

      Dundee.

      14 of 17 likey likey like.

    72. Derick fae Yell says:

      Yesindyref2

      “At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.”

      Correct. The question is, when will that be?

      A year ago an assumption that there would be an outline deal by October 2018 was reasonable. Basically because the EU needs six months to ratify the deal.

      Anyone think there will be a coherent deal by October?

    73. Cactus says:

      Cbillin with and within….. IVY.

      FUCK like!!!!

      Cunt like.

      Cunt.

      Hey U kids like…

    74. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Clapper57 –

      Sorry to have missed you. I was told that a glamorous blonde lady had been asking for me and that you hadn’t long gone. Just my soddin luck, as usual…

      (PS Hope your boy got some decent coverage of his film, it really was impressive stuff. Did he ever send it to Cosgrove & Cowan? That’s the type of thing they sometimes pick up as a talking point and okay, the world cup’s done but it’s still a brilliant effort worth attention.)

      😉

    75. Cactus says:

      Hey Rev… cheers bud.

    76. yesindyref2 says:

      @Derick fae Yell “Correct. The question is, when will that be?

      Since the pledge is to give Scotland a choice, then it must clearly be while Scotland still has a choice, which is therefore BEFORE Scotland is dragged out of the EU against our will.

      It doesn’t mention a date, it’s an event, and when the media hournos talked about a date they were always wrong, it’s event-driven, not date driven. If the negotiations were extended another 2 years by the EU-27 + UK, for instance, it would be another 2 years or so down the line, until the event is imminent.

    77. wull2 says:

      What we require the likes of Indycar to produce a Indycar five minute fact of the day, something we can share on FB to all our friends telling the truth, not what the Scottish media tells us.
      A five minute fact a day to keep WM away.

    78. yesindyref2 says:

      “media hournos” oops, a typo. Either that or a freudian slip.

    79. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 6:00 pm:

      ” … For all your customary verbiage and bluster, RP, you manage to completely miss my point. “

      Och! Yer no daein ower bad in the, “customary verbiage and bluster”, bit yourself Robert. Especially the bluster bit.

      Actually I’m not missing your point – I’m highlighting it’s weakness’ and pointing out the glaring errors – which probably accounts for all that bluster.

      ” … The SNP suffered a political setback in 2017 which the rest of us recognise, even if you still don’t (or won’t). Now where did you get that, (wrong), conclusion from, Robert.

      Where do I indicate I fail to recognise the SNP did not suffer a setback in 2017? I’ve never denied that fact – please show where I have claimed otherwise? I have though contended that the cause was not due to the SNP’s actions or was their fault. Simply because that would be totally untrue. In fact most of that excess verbiage, (you should read what it says instead of what you imagine it says).

      The fault, as I am fed-up attempting to explain, lies not with the SNP – the ONLY party in the entire United Kingdom that fought a GENERAL ELECTION AS A GENERAL ELECTION.

      Please look up in a dictionary what a GENERAL ELECTION is meant to do.

      The reason the SNP suffered a set-back is two-fold. The first being that when there has been a previous ground-swell election in which a party gains a massive change in the voting pattern the following elections tend to swing at least partly back again – as do intermediate by-elections. Strangely enough in the case of the SNP at Holyrood they pattern has not yet seen any significant return towards the previous Labour party domination of Scottish Politics. It was thus on the cards for a swing back following the SNPs previous nearly a whitewash result.

      The second part is that it was not the SNP that made the mistake of choosing to fight a campaign NOT not about electing MPs to Westminster but on totally irrelevant matters. The fault lies with such as you who were fooled by the unionist parties and the unionist controlled media into thinking A GENERAL ELECTION, was not a general election but was about any other thing than A GENERAL ELECTION.

      The Westminster Establishment successfully fooled a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate together with the normal swing-back after a near whitewash previous election.

      Thing is you are still being fooled even yet and anyway, the proclaimed, “Defeat”, by the Westminster Propaganda wing is further evidence of the Scottish voters being easy to fool.

      The truth being that the actual result of the election you are forever claiming was a defeat was in fact that the SNP still emerged as the biggest Scottish contingent at Westminster to the extent that they became the third largest party in the House of Commons. No mean feat when they only stand candidates in Scotland and Scotland is only one tenth of the total electorate.

      ” … It doesn’t matter a damn in which context it occurred, it still happened. And it certainly shook a section of the SNP quite badly, not least the WM contingent. Fact. (Staringly obvious fact, actually.)”

      Well as a matter of fact the context does matter a damn and taking it your way is certainly how the Westminster Establishment has gone overboard in presenting it. The question is why is there averred indy supporters going all out to follow the Westminster propaganda line? Care to tell us your particular reason, Robert?

      ” … It’s taken until fairly recently for the party to regain its confidence”. Has it? Or is that just your own, and the Westminster Establishment view, Robert. I noted there were many quite raw, young first time MPs from Scottish constituencies but they did not seem to me to lack anything in confidence. Perhaps a little overawed but certainly not lacking in confidence.

      The truth is there is no other party in Westminster that works quite so hard nor with the same honest commitment as the SNP. Their attendance in the chamber can be judged whenever the division bell rings. At which point the other parties Lobby fodder troop out of the bars and eateries to vote but the SNP are in the main already in the debates.

      ” … with that wee walkout of the HoC being the high point that cheered us all up, and took most SNP parliamentarians by surprise into the bargain, as they were honest enough to admit afterwards. But for some in the SNP that confidence clearly still hasn’t arrived yet.”

      So, Robert, if as you claim, ” … But for some in the SNP that confidence clearly still hasn’t arrived yet.” You will have no problem quoting and, “clearly”, proving your claims?

      ” … And please don’t call me a hypocrite. Your tendency to indulge yourself in ad hominem attacks at the drop of a hat are unworthy. There’s nothing I’ve said or you have said to justify such a vile slur. Kindly keep your cheap insults to yourself.”

      What insults would those be, Robert, and what, in your opinion makes them cheap?

      I honestly see your incessant false claims, which incidentally always fall in line with the Westminster Establishment’s perceptions and lack the benefits of and real hard evidence, being in essence only your own claims and a very anti-SNP biased view. You are far more likely to be castigating the SNP than you are to be critical of the unionists either political, or journalistic. You may not be anti-independence but you sure as hell are anti-SNP and Anti-Nicola Sturgeon.

    80. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      Sorry for butting in, by the way 🙂

    81. yesindyref2 says:

      Sorry, me again, but you have to laugh.

      Herald top item: “3 hrs ago
      Hundreds of campaigners rally to demand public vote on final Brexit deal”

      National top item: “2 hrs ago
      16,000 turnout for Dundee independence march”

      http://www.thenational.scot/news/16505473.auob-dundee-march-sees-16000-independence-supporters-turnout/

      LOL

    82. Clapper57 says:

      @Ian Brotherhood

      Glamorous !….they should have went to specsaver Lol.

      Yeh sorry I missed you and other wingers…had to go hubby was tired.

      Not sure if he sent it to the two peeps you mentioned will ask him when I see him…anyway hopefully will meet you and other wingers in Edinburgh in October.

      By the way wanted to speak to you to say thank you so so much for putting video link re my son’s Youtube footy video on your twitter account…my son was cheeky and actually tweeted a link to WOS twitter a/c wahahaha…told him no way will he retweet it as he does not know you and he has to be careful …was worth a try though.

      Twas a lovely day today and weather was fab.

      All the best and have a fabby evening .

    83. Robert Peffers says:

      @Footsoldier says: 18 August, 2018 at 6:28 pm:
      ” … The SNP should be in campaign mode with answers. It is little wonder branches are struggling to get members out canvassing on the doorstep again.”

      Well without going too deeply into individual doorstep questions there is one coverall answer to those questions you quote as being asked.

      ” … OK lets say I’m out canvassing and I knock the door of a soft No who then asks me about currency, pensions and armed forces. What answer do I give him? Official party line please. ”

      Dunno if it’s official party line or official SG line, (and they could differ), but I do know what I would answer if confronted with any of the examples you quote. That’s if I didn’t actually know the SG or SNP specific line.

      It goes like this, “The Currency/Pensions/Armed Forces issues in an independent Scotland will be decided by The independent Scottish Parliament at Holyrood by whatever government the legally sovereign people of Scotland have elected to represent them after we have taken back our independence”.

      Note that you probably do not know the political party the legal occupier follows and really do not want to step on their beliefs.

      If that is further questioned I would probably add “After all it is normal for any other country in the World to decide its own countries policies rather than have the country next door do it for them to suit the country next door.”

      I might then add, “Would you let your next door neighbour tap into your electricity, gas and syphon off your car’s fuel?

      Would you let them tell you what you can and cannot do in your own home? Would you let them control what you watch on your TV?

      So Mr/Mrs?Miss/Ms why do we let the country next door decide things for us that usually suit them but not always suit us?

      The point being that while the occupier on the doorstep might be very much brainwashed against the SNP they may well fancy a real Scottish Tory/Labour/LibDem or even UKIP party in power in Scotland and it may surprise them to consider their favoured political party running Scotland particularly as I often detect real leanings towards independence right here on Wings while at the same time the Winger is over critical of the SNP.

      There is absolutely no guarantee that an independent Scotland would always return an SNP government. There is also no guarantee that current staunch SNP members will not drift off to the right and left after independence.

      It’s a whole new ball game after Independence.

    84. Chick McGregor says:

      Just got back in time for the end of the march in Dundee.

      Had been at the Runrig farewell in Stirling the night before and an early start would not have been advised, 😉 also had to drop the sister-in-law off at the rugby thingy in Perth.

      Music, or some of it, is getting better at these rallies.

    85. galamcennalath says:

      Re ‘final deal’.

      Negotiations pre Brexit are about the Wishdrawal Agreement under Article 50 – citizen’s right, dosh payable, and the Irish border. When this gets agreed the UK wins a bonus transition period.

      Post Brexit they can begin to talk about future trade under Article 218.

      However, the Tories are trying to make this complicated. They don’t want to sign a binding WA which commits them to an Ireland backstop of effectively keeping NI in the single market, if the future trade deal falls short of that. They want the non binding statement on future relationships which accompanies the WA to solve the Ireland issue. They want to cherry pick enough to satisfy both Irish border obligations and the DUP not wanting an alternative border in the Irish Sea.

      That’s where they are stuck. They hope the EU will blink and concede to cherry picking.

      The REAL final deal will be the future trade arrangements worked out in several years, if we’re lucky.

      Nicola is well aware that we might Brexit knowing much less than a lot of people suggest! Recently she used the very apt phrase Blind Brexit, which has appeared. That’s why she pushed TMay for some clarity, also recently.

      The People’s Vote, supposedly on a ‘final deal’ is distinctly disingenuous! What those pushing for it really want is a rerun of EURef with a Remain win second time. The supposed ‘deal’ doesn’t really come into it!

    86. sassenach says:

      Robert Peffers @ 9-19pm

      Good post, those ‘answers’ of yours should be printed on flyers for handing out. Perhaps, even without any SNP logos, so that they will be, hopefully, read by folk supporting other parties (and not just cast into a bin if they think it’s just another Party leaflet).

      It is true that everything is open to all political parties, AFTER independence – but let’s get it first!!

    87. Robert Peffers says:

      @wull2 says: 18 August, 2018 at 8:35 pm:

      ” … What we require the likes of Indycar to produce a Indycar five minute fact of the day, something we can share on FB to all our friends telling the truth, not what the Scottish media tells us.
      A five minute fact a day to keep WM away.”

      In fact Gordon is on YouTube most days on his own channel:-

      http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3zYIkrxlj4lqqKxLvbDByw

      Why not subscribe to it?

    88. Macart says:

      What came first, the indyref or the GE? Until No.10 makes a definitive statement? It alters nothing really. The damage has already begun according to Mr Carney. What? Cost of £40bn so far? Hundreds of pounds in costs extra for every household in the UK over the past two years. Smaller businesses reliant on the EU for supply chains and already hanging on by their fingernails after 10 years of austerity, facing imminent closure. Indeed, a fair few are going to take the swan’s path regardless. Horses, stable doors etc. The slightly bigger are going to find it hard enough, but they’ll survive if we make the right choice. The consequences of not making the right choice?

      Pretty well covered here: https://reaction.life/hard-brexiteers-dont-understand-consequences-wto-deal-brexit/

      What comes next isn’t about avoiding damage. It’s about damage limitation. It’s about changing and rebuilding. It’s about our kids and their future. EU, EFTA? Don’t much care. Single market, CU access and the rights umbrella of the ECJ and ECHR? We should all care given the alternative. That’d be continued Westminster government by the by.

      So. Indyref or GE? Given the shape of UK politics and UK/EU negotiations, there’s a fair chance both aren’t outwith the bounds of wossiname right now. Personally, I’m going to keep on chatting to folk whether the FM says go or no in the next few months. I’m going to pretend there’s an indyref or a GE tomorrow and at some point? That’s going to be exactly the case. Each of us convince just one more person. Hold out a hand for a place on the lifeboat. Let folk know we actually care about them.

      Worth a thought.

    89. Footsoldier says:

      Robert Peffers @9.19pm. A reasonable reply.

      The reason I asked was after Mrs May announced the last GE, our SNP branch was in full campaign mode but try as we might to avoid independence issues (because SNP hierarchy said that was not what the GE was about) it was mainly what we were asked on the door step.

      Seeking help, we were advised by a senior SNP figure to turn such questions to a different topic because again we were not campaigning for independence at the GE (no one told the opposition). The result tells the story, even if we “won” losing so many seats was a major blow.

      Now we wonder why turnout at local branches has fallen and the once formidable army of canvassers has somewhat withered.

      It’s time to ask why we want independence. I cannot think of a country in the last 100 years that has sought independence simply to be better off financially yet that seems to be what we are tying ourselves up in knots explaining. I see little change from previously in gearing up. What happens if a GE is called in the autumn – is the army of canvassers fully equipped and ready to go?

      Being better off economically is not what independence is about, good government brings that. It is much more than that but we never hear it.

    90. jfngw says:

      Good to see all the celebs (well the Pointless level of celeb) up in Edinburgh telling us we need to stand together to support another chance to stay in the EU.

      They seem to have forgotten that only one MP from Scotland voted to have a referendum which we were then forced to take part in. Then after Scotland voted to Remain, by a larger margin than staying in the UK, we were told to shut up because the people of England had decided we would be leaving.

      I have no interest in taking part in another referendum, Scotland’s position was clear, we voted to stay.

      If we agree to take part in another referendum we are basically agreeing that the people of England will decide Scotland’s future, in theory Scotland could decide England’s future but the numbers don’t look good, 85% against 8.6%).

      I’m afraid that boat has sailed, independence is a requirement no matter how England votes in the future. The recent behaviour at Westminster towards Scotland has made it imperative, we can no longer accept being told to shut up and hang onto Westminster’s coattails, no matter how bumpy the ride. The Westminster Unionist parties have made it clear, they have no respect for Scotland’s opinion on any matters of significance and if we disagree they will simply remove the powers we have.

      The current slogan is ‘Scotland is Now’, the new slogan should be ‘Independence is Now’.

    91. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      yesindyref2 @ 20:47,

      Not at all. I have to take timeouts at the moment anyway. But it is refreshing to see challenged in black/white the usual suspects attempts to rewrite SNP policy on the hoof!

      And it is these attempts that have me worried. We all know that timing is crucial, but these folk keep on erecting barriers of their own making, and you have to wonder why.

      As I said, if the SNP duck the issue before March next year, I believe it will be a let-down with consequences far greater for the party than 2107. And I’m not alone in thinking that.

    92. wull2 says:

      Thanks Robert Peffers, I subscribe already, what I was trying to say we require a 5 minute max of facts, I watch the whole show but most people would not, especially on their phone (data allowance)

    93. jfngw says:

      @footsoldier

      One thing that needs to be pointed out is the ScotGov can’t endlessly mitigate the cuts imposed by Westminster. Things like free personal care and free tuition will be put under threat by staying in the Union if the block grant effectively reduced. it has to be made clear the ScotGov have no control over this grant and the powers it does have can’t really make a large enough impact on its income.

      There should be a pretty straightforward answer for pensions and armed forces. The currency one is more difficult, saying it will be down to the elected government after independence would I suspect be seen as being evasive. This really needs someone to produce a set of options that can be easily explained then tell them they will get to decide. This is basically the same answer I think but it seem less evasive.

    94. Shug says:

      Does anyone have a photo of the hundreds of remainers that demonstrated in edinburgh today
      The herald says humdreds can anyone disprove and show the lie

    95. Cactus says:

      Nae trains tae Glasgow left frae Dundee… oan the train tae Edinburgh like…

      Where’s good to go Edinburgh like?

      Graveyard sleepy?

    96. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Footsoldier at 9.51

      Very good post. We did try to tell SNP HQ we were losing seats because the SNP support comes out at its best only on the independence question but got no response.

      Our opposition certainly knew what the big question was and hit us with it continuously and we made no response on it.

      We couldn’t get our members to put the useless leaflets out.

      That “snap” election had only one good effect for the SNP. It stopped an incipient rebellion across the party across the country on the appalling vetting procedure manipulation and other elements of the previous council elections.

    97. Danny says:

      As I have said before, fairly new to the site but I have to ask a question that I think the majority who use this site would love to know the answer to:

      Does this Cactus chap overdose on LSD every night before he starts posting on Wings?

      Some of his comments are “way out there man”,,know what I mean?

      No insults intended, just a genuine question. LOL

    98. yesindyref2 says:

      @RJS
      A lot of people think that. A pledge is a pledge, and if broken there can be no futher trust. But it’s not a date though, it’s the terms of the deal being known, and if there was a year extension say, agreed between the EU-27 and the UK, then it puts things back a year. Sturgeon and the SNP have no control over that.

    99. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Robert Peffers @ 19:13, 20:36, etc.

      me:

      (Ie. one taken while it still matters, not one after the party is all over.)

      No! That bit is made up by you. No such promise has been made. In fact you contradict yourself in making it.

      “Contradict myself”? How? Are you really that obtuse? What kind of sovereignity (as mentioned in your reference) would the people of Scotland have if they are allowed to have this vile thing forced upon them without their explicit consent?

      …….

      The truth being that the actual result of the election you are forever claiming was a defeat

      There you go again, twister. How dare you? I never claimed anything of the sort, ever. This is just one example of the kind of distortion you apply after you get a rush to the head because someone has dared to disagree with you. You may be a very prodigious writer, but it would help a lot if you actually bothered to read and understand the actual case being presented first.

      My point, to spell it out to those with poor comprehension skills, is not that the SNP “lost” in 2017, since they did remarkably well in fairly adverse circumstances, but that they clearly felt they had lost significant support. This was not merely my imagination, as you seem to be implying. Hence notoriously the Wishart reaction of “wait till 2021/sometime/whenever” that got a very dusty reception at the time – and no wonder! – but which still seems to be lingering with some. (And that’s what worries me.)

      As for your notion that the SNP were the only ones to fight the UKGE according to the Peffer Rules, well so what? It obviously didn’t serve them best, however “correctly” you think it was fought.

      As for the rest of your voluble blundering, I really can’t be bothered. I refer to indyref2‘s recent postings for the precise details of your party policy, which you clearly don’t seem to grasp. Or like some, are now attempting to massage completely out of shape, which is far, far worse. (Politics, eh?)

      But if you or anyone else thinks that it’s going to be consequence-free to be dragged out of the EU along with England et al before we get to choose as promised, at eventual elections (any elections) you are going to get a nasty surprise that will make the wee dent of 2017 look like a tea party.

      As for your attitude to people you take against, I’m not the first to comment on an unpleasant tendency to demean people in your responses.

    100. Famous15 says:

      Reflecting after a good day I notice the usual suspects bullying oor Nocola into an early call.

      Well y’all early callers should get all the adverts for premature ejaculation you deserve.

      Me? I know how fine the judgement is and OK if we all had my awareness it would not be so difficult but we live in a world full of stress and fears and these must be assuaged,so I trust Nicola’s
      judgement when the YES button is pushed.

    101. jfngw says:

      @shug

      Not many decent pictures online, most taken at a low angle to make it look crowded. This is the best I can find.

      https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/brexit-news-peoples-vote-gavin-esler-scotland-remain-stop-brexit-5-1467271.jpg?r=1534623273846

      Doesn’t look that crowded, maybe a couple of hundred. I wonder how many were trained in. Be careful of the news sites as they seem to be adding pictures from elsewhere into the stories to give the impression of a much larger rally.

    102. Cactus says:

      Aweright Danny.

      We love you.

      Mwah x.

    103. yesindyref2 says:

      The important thing in the 2017 UKGE is this anyway, and that was achieved by 35 to 24 – a very clear majority of SNP MPs:

      If the SNP wins a majority of Scottish seats in this election, that would complete a triple lock, further reinforcing the democratic mandate which already exists.

      But I’d say that while the 2016 manifesto was a little vague with its “material change“, the 2017 which supplants it was outright and very clear in its pledge:

      At the end of the Brexit process, when the final terms of the deal are known, it is right that Scotland should have a choice about our future.“.

      That is a very clear mandate for the SNP, and thence the Scottish Parliament. It’s possible the rest is largely incidental and indeed, misdirection, to take attention off that. It’s certainly had the unionists running around in circles biting their own tails.

      Woof!

    104. Danny says:

      Stay safe Cactus.

      Your posts are entertaining and ………………..a wee bit different man. LOL

    105. yesindyref2 says:

      One of the great things about these marches is the media, and that they’re all over the place. The people of Glasgow, Dumfries, Inverness, Falkirk and Dundee all know that the marches happened, and then they see the absence of reporting of them in the media. Let the media destroy itself.

      Any planned for Aberdeen, Ayr, Fort William, Perth, Aviemore? Stornoway, Lerwick?

      @Famous15
      Do you seriously think Sturgeon can be bullied by anyone?

    106. Danny says:

      I see the “English Plant” is trying to show us all how really Scottish he is.

      Sometimes you can try too hard.

      It is a dead give away Englander, we all know where your heart really lies,,and it isn’t in Scotland pal.

    107. Meg merrilees says:

      Yesindyref2

      You have to laugh but also grimace…

      NO mention of the Runrig farewell concerts on BBC Scotland website and especially not on the Tayside and Central Scotland section.

      Surely that is of interest to quite a lot of people in Scotland??

      Just who makes up these headlines and decides what is the lead story???
      At least they acknowledge that a lot of people marched through Dundee today ( unlike Stirling/Bannockburn which was pretty invisible)

    108. Haggishunter says:

      Dundee the day.
      Saw about 20 toffs with union jakes and 20 thugs with union jakes also, but they were all similar (racists (except for the financial situations))
      The homeless sitting on the street got smiles and donations from us.
      I stopped to crack with some Germans, Poles, English, Greeks, an Indian mannie and an Irish couple, as well as a Bobbie from Blairgowrie and a Collie dog puppy. Everyone was relaxed, even some of the Union Jake flyers looked to be happy, but their flag is a symbol of racist hatred, while our Bonny saltire isn’t anti anybody, despite how the BBCSkyLabServativeDems try to spin and drag it down to their level.
      As far as I could tell, the march was a huge success in terms of interaction and respect. Only the British establishments face (aka bbc, sky, daily mail, MSM etc etc) tries to discredit the Scottish culture.

    109. ScottishPsyche says:

      The rally in Dundee looked fab but it looks like the luvvies for EU vote pantomime in Edinburgh will take centre stage for the Unionist press. Rory Bremner talking down to folk on Twitter who challenged his EU before anything else stance. Also disappointing to see Tanja Bueltmman saying she was receiving abuse. Folk were just trying to show her how condescending it was to ask that love for the UK should motivate us to vote to remain again.

      It is sickening the way Scotland always has to sacrifice its ambitions for the greater good of the UK in these peoples eyes and they cannot see how fed up we are about it.

    110. yesindyref2 says:

      @Meg merrilees
      At least the Herald did carry it this morning in an amusing article by Ton Gordon. Which may have helped turnout, who knows. I wait with bated breath to see the Sunday Herald cover it! Summer’s no use to me, too busy, though I almost made the Dumfries one on the way back from a Lakes trip which never actually happened (ran out of time so did it by phone instead). Edinburgh on the other hand is the right time of year, just 50p to book on Stagecoach, and maybe a hostel overnight …

      Ah well, a 5 hour job now to stop procrastinating about.

    111. Phronesis says:

      Another fantastic, uplifting AUOB march in Dundee today – a credit to the YES movement, civic nationalism and the politics of hope and aspiration .The perfect antidote to the WM politics of fear and loathing.
      The key to success is passion and resilience – not apathy and capitulation. It is a shared passion for determining our collective fate, to build an economy that rewards entrepreneurial spirit and supports the entrepreneurial state that sustains YES groups that exist at all levels of society throughout Scotland. A small country that can use its wealth wisely to invest in its infrastructure, education, healthcare for future generations without the pernicious influence of WM and its associated racketeers.

      It is pleasing to know that Scotland is a country- the Treasury notes this repeatedly in data sets – Wales is also a country as is N.Ireland. Regions are noted in England- but there is no region of Scotland – it is definitely a country. Scotland’s independence from WM is the seismic political event that will re-calibrate the failed British political system.

      https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/726871/PESA_2018_Accessible.pdf

      Which means that there is no need for Scotland to vote in another EU referendum. Scotland already voted to stay in the EU, as Scotland the country.

    112. Highland Wifie says:

      Most surreal moment of the day for me:-
      Exchanging blown kisses with one of the UJ flying wifies as we passed Desperate Dan.
      I felt the lurv. Lol. 🙂

    113. Cactus says:

      Ha ha ha like.

      Aye love Wings like 😉

      Danny’s got the hallucinogenic acid for us all, gie us some, ah pure love lucy in the sky like.

      Yer aweright pal…

      Sitting at Platform 11 waiting for the last one Danny, gie us a song dude…

      Did U ken that Ebenezer is good?

      Diamonds.

    114. Robert Peffers says:

      @Robert J. Sutherland says: 18 August, 2018 at 11:03 pm:

      In reply to Robert Peffers @ 19:13, 20:36, etc.

      Well Robert I started to reply to this comment that was utter garbage with so many holes in your attempted arguments it was becoming far too long. Then I decided to ignore it. You really cannot defend some of the stuff you spouted.

      I had to stop when I got to the bit where you claimed I had made the United Kingdom’s, “Peffer”, (sic), Rules for running a United Kingdom General election.

      This was a bit after the one where you claimed I was, “Implying”, things. I do not imply things, Robert – I’m far too honest for that – I bloody well say then out loud and clear.

      You, on the other hand make lots of claims as truths that are no more than your own personal opinion and you rarely, if ever, either explain your logic or offer proofs.

      You cannot deny that you are a well known unfair critic of Nicola Sturgeon, the SG, the SNP and all who sail in her. All this claptrap about the SNP, or Nicola or the SG running away is utter Westminster propaganda. Sometimes you even put the Daily Mail to shame by outdoing their anti-SNP daily dirge of dirt.

    115. Liz g says:

      Danny @ 10.56
      What has it to do with you, me or anybody else..
      The Rev says..
      Play the ball ,, not the man..
      And it will be mair in yer line if ye mind minded that…

      Dae ye have anything useful tae say aboot Indy???
      Or are ye mair interested in oor Cactus and whit he gits up tae???
      Indy is fur everybody!!!
      Cactus is his business …and not yours…
      This is no a sweetie wife site…
      Dae ye have a thing tae say that’s no jist gossip???

      I’m waiting!!!!!!! Sweetie!!

    116. Grouse Beater says:

      Black propaganda will never cease until Scotland takes control of its own destiny.

      Your essential weekend reading:

      Jacobite rebellion: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mR8
      Megalodon v Statham: https://wp.me/p4fd9j-mQh

    117. Liz g says:

      Highland Wifie @ 12.17
      Saw that too..
      And waved right back at them..
      It’s new.. but it’s Auld???
      As in.. they were Auld … keep on smiling,, I say.
      What say you Highland Wifie??

    118. Thepnr says:

      Well done to all those that managed to make it along to Dundee yesterday for the AOUB march. If you couldn’t make it yourself for whatever reason, well not to worry as the BIG one is in Edinburgh in October and I hope to see you there.

      For now here’s a wee video that I think captures the atmosphere in Dundee yesterday. Pretty good job whoever you are 🙂

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VmxIVEMLnQ

    119. Liz g says:

      Thepnr @ 3.55
      Dundee certainly knows how to throw a party…
      A great day..
      onwards to Edinburgh…. A high bar indeed!!

    120. Macart says:

      Huh! Apparently there was a bit of a demonstration in Embra yesterday, some celeb talkers (Menzies Campbell, Gavin Esler, Rory Bremner) and hunners attending. Basically demanding another EU referendum sorta thing. ‘Cause, y’know, Brexit is a bit of an omnishambles. It was a vote won on the smallest of margins by shameful, ill informed (also allegedly illegal) campaign. Democracy undermined, outrage, catastrophic outcomes, yada, yada, yada.

      Who knew? (file under no shit Sherlock) Oh, and welcome to our world.

      Well? Fine as far as it goes I suppose. All worthy intentions. ‘Cept of course that some of the folk doing the talking deny there’s any need for Scotland to have a repeat referendum on what are equally justifiable grounds. Welcome to our world Messrs Esler et al.

      Small point for those folk to consider. Scotland doesn’t require an EU referendum to remain in the single market/CU. In point of fact there’s only one referendum we require. It’s one which would halt a permanent exit from the EU/single market/CU (ask Mr Verhofstadt about that) and end the democratic deficit and catastrophic idiocy of Westminster government at a stroke. Its a win win kind of ballot.

      Also? For the 4th march in a row this summer, numbers well north of 10k once again turned up to hold a wee march and demo of their own. Pretty much in order to make that very point.

      Just so our day trip visitors know? Scotland’s electorate don’t require any instruction on how to keep up to date on Westminster’s many political idiocies, or democratic hypocrisy.

    121. Macart says:

      Mmmm. Should read “Welcome to our world indeed Messrs Esler et al.”. It’s early/late and I fell asleep on the couch. (sigh)

      Definitely bed time.

    122. Shinty says:

      “Just so our day trip visitors know? Scotland’s electorate don’t require any instruction on how to keep up to date on Westminster’s many political idiocies, or democratic hypocrisy”

      Well said Macart.

      I had something else to say but it would have involved some big sweary words and it’s a bit early to get me started.

    123. yesindyref2 says:

      Talking about Lucy’s diamonds and looking for Mollie, here’s a piece of smoke from way beyond the Canadian sky, and into the outer limits of the space time continuum.

      http://archive.is/GflTZ

    124. yesindyref2 says:

      Still, at least the Herald does briefly cover Dundee.

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16584923.thousands-gather-for-dundee-all-under-one-banner-march/

      Not as much as the 16,000 did all the same! Wish I’d been able to go, Dundee is my favourite city.

    125. Fred says:

      Aye and the weather looked a lot better than Glesga’s! Hope to make Edinburgh in October!

    126. Clootie says:

      …still in Dundee 🙂
      Well done AUOB and everyone who made the effort.
      A great route!

    127. Ken500 says:

      Scotland doesn’t need another EU Ref. It has already voted Remain. Despite the criminal cheating and lying by Leave and Westminster, Most of them should be in jail. It needs another IndyRef because of the criminal lying and cheating by Westminster. Especially over EU membership.

      There was an EU support event in Edinburgh by those who want EU membership but do not want the EU principles of equality, justice and self governance in the UK. Unbelievable.

      There will be a GE soon. To get the Tories out off their mess. A complete and utter shambles. Trying to ruin the world economy. After that another IndyRef. Get Labour out of the way. They are destroying their own Party. Totally useless. A shambles. Take the fight to the Tories, The SNP will win. Self governance, Independence. Or a different arrangement.

      Well done to all who marched. Just get out and vote to those who can’t manage to march.

      Courier had some videos.

    128. Highland Wifie says:

      @Liz g 1.26
      I say amen to that!
      We need that independence soon cos I don’t want to be marching when I’m that auld. 🙂

    129. Robert Louis says:

      So, Yesterday, a bunch of complete no hopers stood in Edinburgh to tell Scots they need a second vote on the brexit deal. Seriously, WHAT F*CKING PLANET ARE THESE PEOPLE FROM?

      In case it has escaped notice to the absolute t*ssers who came up to tell Scots what to think yesterday, here’s a wee summary.

      In 2016, Scotland voted by a resounding margin AGAINST BREXIT. In Edinburgh (of all places) the vote was 75% AGAINST brexit. Every single polling constituency in Scotland voted AGAINST brexit. Every single one.

      What has happened? Scotland has been totally ignored and is about to be pulled out of the EU against its wishes by England and our colonial English overlords. The people of Scotland are to be forcibly stripped of their EU citizenship and rights, wholly against their wishes. Our democratically elected Scottish Government has been totally ignored and insulted on a near daily basis, and England has legislated to steal powers from the Scottish parliament – a Scottish parliament that was mandated by the people of Scotland.

      And here’s the real clincher, people in Scotland are really angry about it. I and many in Scotland would happily have Gove, Johnson, May, Mogg, Corbyn, farage and all the other Westminster tory and LABOUR clowns responsible dragged into the streets of whitehall, stripped naked, horse whipped, have both their EU and ‘British passports removed, chucked on a boat and left adrift at sea, without a country and without a hope. Each and every one of them will go down in history as the most pathetic self-serving, selfish, inconsiderate, dangerous and damaging politicians England has ever seen. They are literally destroying not just Scotland, but England too. Hell mend them.

      We are sick and tired of all of them and their stupid nonsensical ‘brexit’.

      So, given all of that, why would anybody in Scotland want another vote on brexit? Scotland’s wishes will just be ignored AGAIN.

      It is only the views of England which are noticed. Scotland said NO, but England said Yes, so Scots views don’t matter. That is why Scots want independence, so we are no longer treated as England’s plaything, to be abused as England pleases.

      England can choose what ever deal it wants on brexit – hard, soft, whatever, I really don’t care.. Scotland is staying in the EU.

      We don’t want a vote on the brexit deal, and we certainly don’t ‘love the ‘yookay’. Scotland wants a vote for independence, so we can put an end to this type of enduring misery perpetrated by England upon Scotland for over three hundred years.

    130. starlaw says:

      Radio Shortbread this morning, banging on about the remainers rally in Edinburgh and suggesting all remainers should rally to the flag of this movement lead by Vince Cable. Not a mention of the biggest by far Remainers Party who the Scots are Rallying around.
      Remainers in Scotland already have a Party to Rally around and its not based in another country.
      Well done to those who remain seated during GSTQ at the tattoo and sending a message world wide.

    131. Ken500 says:

      Scotland loses £Billions to Westminster Treasury with policies totally wrong for Scotland, £4Billion+ a year in the Oil & Gas sector has been lost since 2010 to Tory high taxes (when the price is low). 40% since Jan 2016. Higher before. Losing 120,000 jobs in Scotland. Scotland has to pay on average £4Billion on loans not borrowed or spent in Scotland. HS2, Hinkley Point etc which will damage the environment and the Scottish economy. Making journeys longer. There are much cheaper effective alternatives. Just a total waste of money. The railway in the north of England and Scotland should be improved and times reduced. Less flights would be needed.

      Scotland loses out with EU grants, renewables and CAP payments etc because of Westminster indecision. The Westminster Treasury took £160million of EU funding intended for Scotland farmers, Scotland as part of the UK receives the lowest payments in the EU. Scotland pays £Billions more for the military. Trident etc. The fishing industry totally mismanaged by Westminster. Throwing back dead fish for years. Instead of using bigger nets like the Norwegians,

      Scotland loses £3Billion? to tax evasion, UK tax Laws are not enforced. The Scottish Gov can’t borrow (ie very little) The Westminster Gov borrows and spends pro rata £10Billion more in the rest of the UK. £100Billion, £50Billiin public. £50Billion private (Chinese) etc. Too high and has to be paid back. PPI. The Tory slush fund.

      Irish Repbulic kept the £. Punt pegged to Sterling until 1998 then changed to the Euro. Had major growth within the EU, Scotland has so much more natural resources etc by comparison. Scotland could be booming. More prosperous, equal and cohesive. Like most of the EU. Founded to stop wars and starvation in Europe. If Scotland gets better off so does the rest of the UK.

      Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion has cost Scotland dear. The fraud and corruption at Westminster. Now trying to ruin the world economy. Sanctioning and starving people. Killing and maiming millions worldwide. Funds that could be better spent relieving poverty. Instead of bombing the Middle East to bits for years. A total tragedy,

      Is there no traffic allowed on the old Forth Road bridge. Is it still being repaired? The point of two bridges was to relieve the traffic congestion.

      OAP can’t use their (bus) travel passes on the Trams The trams are running undersubscribed and under priced by comparison. That is not fair. Edinburgh the weathiest city in Scotland has subsidised public funded transport.

    132. Ken500 says:

      Scotland trades more with the EU (£15Billion) + EU geavts and ECB investment, and overseas (£5Billion?). Than with the rest of the UK (£10Billion). Without Oil & Gas revenues. Scotland is self sufficient in food, energy and fuel. Exports the surplus. Scotland should be really wealthy without Westminster chronic interference. Illegal and secret manipulation and taking of Scottish resources.

      Iraq, Dunblane and Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. Thatcher etc used the Official Secrets Act to deprive Scotland. The McCrone Report, the Barnett Formula and secret accounts used to embezzle and deprive Scotland. ‘This must be kept secret’, written on the documents. Every manufacturing facility shut down. Civil war with the miners. The Poll tax and violent unrest.

      Blair and Brown were no better. Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Most of them should be in jail for crimes against humanity. Breaking International Law and every Law that they make. Supporting apartheid States and absolute despot monarchies. Regimes that would never be supported in UK, France (US). They carved up the Middle East and stole all their resources. Ruined the world economy.

      Sanctions against Russia etc are just counter productive. Since 1990’s 150Million (USSR) have gained self determination and self governance. The Russian pop (USSR) has halved. 150 million.

      US (pop 328 million) spends $611Billion on the Military. 1/3 of all world spending. The 2nd highest in the world. They can’t afford it. Bankrupt.

      Saudi Arabia (33million pop) spends $69Billion. The highest pro rata in the world.

      Russia (150 million) spends $66Billion.

      China (1.3Billion pop) spends $228Billion

      UK (pop 65million) spends $47Billion.

      Shared EU Defence costs keeps costs down.

    133. Les Wilson says:

      Clootie says:
      Totally agree, these guys are doing a grand job. Here is to Edinburgh, hopefully the biggest of them all. Do we know the route? Meadows- Calton Hill, worked well last time.

    134. Ken500 says:

      The LibDem /ConDems caused the Tory EU Referendum and the rest of the mess. Their collusion and hypocrisy. Total hypocrites.

    135. Danny says:

      Liz g 12.55am

      Did you read my post at 11.27pm?

      You were probably that drunk you couldn’t read it.

      Liz g, you come across as someone who drinks too much and thinks very little. A very aggressive, sweary little person. (Not Nice)

      Try reversing that process hen, it works wonders and stops you making a complete arse of yourself.

      You stupid irrelevant little woman.

    136. Danny says:

      The Herald:

      Iain Macwhirter
      Political Editor

      “As hopes of indyref2 fade, are we seeing the birth of New SNP?”

      http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16584883.as-hopes-of-indyref2-fade-are-we-seeing-the-birth-of-new-snp/

      Does MacWhirter know something we don’t?

      Nicola Sturgeon has ALWAYS said that IndyRef2 will be announced when it becomes crystal clear how Brexit will end up. Which is looking increasingly likely like a No Deal, crash out of the EU Brexit.

      Don’t fire until you can see the whites of their eyes, then let all hell break loose.

    137. Breeks says:

      Ha ha ha.

      Having a wee chuckle this morning trying to figure out where “the people’s vote” fits in to Venn diagram of Scotland’s political landscape.

      I think we need another Venn diagram.

      I’m actually serious. So far it has them in it, and UKIP, but there’s plenty space for all the other delusional pressure groups which are wholly irrelevant in Scotland.

      But well done Dundee! Top marks all round.

    138. Shinty says:

      Danny – I suggest you tone it down a bit.

    139. galamcennalath says:

      starlaw says:

      Remainers in Scotland already have a Party to Rally around

      Indeed, and the BritNats with their media realise this and just how big a threat it is.

      Remain in Scotland approaches 70%, BritNats must be terrified these people see the SNP and Indy as the solution to Brexit.

      It is therefore no surprise they hype a wee gathering in Edinburgh as a counter to the ‘hordes’ marching Dundee! If I were a sceptic, I might believe the Edinburgh affair was pre arranged to coincide.

    140. Lollysmum says:

      @Liz g
      Hope you got back from Dundee ok. By the time we got to thedtation on Riverside Drive the coaches were there. We told the Glasgow coach drivers about you & where to find you. Even gave them a description of you. From what we gathered, you weren’t the only missing passenger.

      See you at the next Wings Night out ?

    141. Tinto Chiel says:

      “It is only the views of England which are noticed. Scotland said NO, but England said Yes, so Scots views don’t matter. That is why Scots want independence, so we are no longer treated as England’s plaything, to be abused as England pleases.”

      Yup, Robert Louis, and having Gavin “No Borders” Astroturfer Esler come up to lecture us on the matter with all the other BBC luvvies ‘n’ shills like Rory B. was particularly galling.

      Another EU ref may be countenanced just to derail our Indyref2, though, if the Establishment thinks we will win it.

    142. Legerwood says:

      O/T
      Kevin McKenna’s take on Michelle Mone in his column in the Guardian online today. Have a sick-bag handy
      http://archive.is/D7dLW

    143. Daisy Walker says:

      Lizg – keep well, keep posting, and smile.

      Cactus – you are my hero – always.

      EURef2…. Scotland voted Remain, and we meant it, we say No to EURef2.

      Which bit of 62% Remain did you not understand the first time. Now you want a re-run, what, so you can ignore our votes again? And how many powers you gonna steal this time.

      Where’s my DevoMax? Hmmm, where is it, show me the road signs pointing to it why don’t you.

      These demands for EUref2, its as if some parts of England have realised, Brexit gives us a democratic and moral right to go for Indy, and they’re desperately trying to undo this. The method, being the same old same old… do as we tell you sweaties, its for the greater good.

    144. Lollysmum says:

      @Liz g
      Hope you got back from Dundee ok. By the time we got to thedtation on Riverside Drive the coaches were there. We told the Glasgow coach drivers about you & where to find you. Even gave them a description of you. From what we gathered, you weren’t the only missing passenger.

      See you at the next Wings Night out ?

    145. Shug says:

      @ifingwat
      Indy ref supporters should attend in future to get real pictures
      I still remember the bbc giving it “there is chaos on the streets of glasgow” at a Jim Murphy box
      show when in reality there were around 30 and they all came with him

      yes bbc we remember

    146. Shinty says:

      A wee reminder folks, Full Scottish on at noon
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwFtXGRIwLs

    147. Daisy Walker says:

      We have to have another EURef2…

      Because when Scotland voted 62% Remain the first time, England couldn’t understand us… cause of our accents.

      We have to have another EURef2 because…

      Opinion polls show support for Remain has gone up even more in Scotland, maybe even 70%, which might just be enough to tip the balance in England, who are going to just love us soooo much for that.

      We have to have another EURef2 because ….

      it will be so much fun watching Truthless Davidson doing another U Turn and campaigning for it. ‘We voted Remain and we meant it, but now we have to vote again and mean it more this time, We say no, but yes, to another Referendum, the people have spoken, but not the right words, now we need to let them speak again.’ (Actually this would be fun).

      We have to have another EURef2 because…

      There wasn’t Vow in the last one, Referendums aren’t proper Referendums unless there’s a Vow.

    148. Shinty says:

      Tinto Chiel @ 9.56 am “Another EU ref may be countenanced just to derail our Indyref2, though, if the Establishment thinks we will win it”

      Exactly, that’s why this ‘peoples vote’ is being promoted in the press. I have an idea, why don’t Engerland & Wales have another vote.

      Scotland has far more important plans to get on with.

    149. Capella says:

      The BBC site does have a brief mention of the Dundee march. Very brief. Ends with this:

      Previous AUOB events this year have taken place in Dumfries, Bannockburn and Inverness.

      Notice anything missing? It’s accurate though.

      Well done everyone who made to Dundee (and home again). I missesd this one but am determined to get to Edinburgh on 6th October. I thought I was at he Glasgow one but after the BBC report I’m beinning to think that was all a dream.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-45232653

    150. Jim says:

      Laughing at the push to get Scots to support a second EU referendum when we voted unanimously to stay so why the heck would we?

      If the rUK wants another vote on the EU then they can run that referendum in their own countries, the only time another referendum on EU membership in Scotland is held is as an Independent country!

    151. Danny says:

      Shinty

      I suggest you mind your own fucking business.

      The drunk, Liz g attacked me on here for NO Reason whatsoever.

      Shouldn’t you have told Liz g to read ALL posts before posting her drunken rant.???

    152. @Ken5OO

      those allowed to use old road bridge,

      Buses (8 passengers +),
      Taxis,includes private hire,
      Motorbikes,
      Emergency vehicles,
      Agricultural vehicle that are unable to use motorway QC,
      Cycles,
      Pedestrians,

      https://tinyurl.com/y96h7fe7

      over 60`s from Edinburgh are allowed to use trams FOC,that includes to Airport,

      Scottish National Entitlement Cards that do not have City of Edinburgh Council as the issuing Local Authority are NOT valid on tram services,

      However, blind or visually impaired holders of Scottish National Entitlement Cards issued by other local authorities can also travel free on trams. (Where entitled, a companion will too.)

      https://tinyurl.com/y8gyzoeq

    153. Terry says:

      Lurker enjoying the site.

    154. Dr Jim says:

      England came to Scotland again yesterday to tell us to do a thing we’ve already done but they were’nt listening to us when we did it so they came to tell us again but more importantly this time because they had *celebrities* and in the big England land that’s far more important than actual people

      The big England land did this in 2014 when they filled Trafalgar Square with *celebrities* to tell us stuff, they filled our TV screens with *celebrities* to tell us stuff but here’s the thing about the big Englands methods of telling us stuff, Scotland doesn’t care who plays football for who or which comedian used to be funny or which newsreader is in favour of what or even a failed politician in a political party Scotland was never interested in anyway

      Scotland is not F…..g *Love Island* none of these people impress us so take yer propositions and stick them as deeply as you can possibly manage into the bodily orifice of your choice because the one thing you big England people aren’t getting away with is sticking yer big England propositions up any of Scotlands peoples orifices ever again, we neither need nor want yer new shiny solution to a problem we don’t have and didn’t create and already voted on the correct way, we didn’t bugger this up

      Deal with yer own English dogs breakfast in England Scotland will deal with Scotland thank you very much, you want to come and live here and pay tax here you get one say the same as the rest of us, not a more important say a bloody equal one 1 one 1 say

      Until then thanks for your interest have a good day and go away ending in *Off*

      See when I get irked

    155. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Legerwood

      Thank you so much for posting Kevin’s latest Guardian article about BMone. I haven’t laughed so hard for ages.

      I particularly liked this bit,

      ‘Mone is now Baroness Mone, having been ennobled by then prime minister David Cameron and following her late conversion to the Conservative party. The extent of the deprivation she encountered growing up in Glasgow’s East End is uncertain, but what cannot be doubted is the intelligence and astonishing capacity for hard work that lifted her out of relative poverty. The rewards she has reaped for this – a multimillionaire lifestyle tinted with glamour and celebrity – are all thoroughly well deserved.

      In the course of this, it seems to me that she has been unfairly vilified and become subject to a whispering campaign that has questioned her ability and the real source of her success. Much of this seemed to be rooted in jealousy and more than a degree of sexism. Perhaps some corners have been cut along the way and there have been some embellishments and belligerence too. I doubt, though, that these have been any worse than similar stratagems deployed by successful male tycoons and for which they are respected and admired.’

      For the rest of the day, I’m going to try and write/post like Kevin. Its inspiring.

      Lashings of faint praise, oodles of unctuous niceness, ladled onto the most undeserving/misunderstood. For surely ‘wha’s like us’. Now I must rush off and dab some fake tan behind my ears, one has standards don’t you know.

    156. Jock McDonnell says:

      SkyNews going with the water shortage issue which affects ‘the country’.
      Oh, aye Jocky, you’re short of water too.

      A narrative is being developed to rip us off.

      And the sad old herald – majoring on a few hundred remainers when there were 16000 Yessers marching in Dundee

      If you need a fundraiser Rev, we will be there.

    157. Robert Peffers says:

      @Thepnr says: 19 August, 2018 at 3:56 am:

      … For now here’s a wee video that I think captures the atmosphere in Dundee yesterday. Pretty good job whoever you are ?

      Viewed and enjoyed that video, Thepnr.

      After I had watched it another one automatically followed it and it gives a much better idea of the turnout.

      Unfortunately I failed to note the YouTube link. However the clip showed the march unbroken as it passed. It ran for around 30 minutes and when it ended there was still no end of the column in sight.

      Taking an average of, say 5 abreast, at an average walking pace should give a better idea of the attendance figures. There is usually a figure quoted from Police Scotland but I have not seen one for Dundee yet. Just a Stewart Hosie estimate of 16,000.

    158. Ghillie says:

      Jim @ 10.35 am

      With on this Jim.

      Scotland voted to stay in the EU. Emphatically.

      Scotland’s next referendum is for Independence =)

      Am thinking mibee the Remainers down South realise they would very much like the rising support in Scotland for staying in the EU to bolster their numbers.

      Sorry folk. We did our bit and did it properly. Now we have way bigger, way more important fish to fry!

      Stand back. Scotland has important work to do 🙂

      Well well done all the good folk who marched in Dundee to get that message across! You looked amazing!!

      See you all in Edinburgh on 6th October 🙂

    159. Danny says:

      Dr Jim 10.45am

      Excellent post.

      “The big England land did this in 2014 when they filled Trafalgar Square with *celebrities* to tell us stuff…”

      I am sure it was Ultra little Englander Dan Snow who organised that BritNat fest in Trafalgar Sq.

      As far as who gets switched off the quickest, it’s a toss up between Dan Snow and Neil Oliver.

    160. Ghillie says:

      Just a wee thought…

      When someone says ‘no insult intended’ –

      I am instantly reminded of the folk who say things like ‘I’m not a racist, but’…

      Just saying like.

    161. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      The Sunday Mail (not the Mail on Sunday) plumbs new depths of anti SNP distortion with its front page today (and several other pages).

      I am actually shocked

      I made the mistake of buying one to see what it was all about. The SNP government gave a small sum of money to an arms manufacturing firm with a small plant in Scotland to encourage it to diversify and move away from manufacturing arms – so Nicola Sturgeon is responsible for bombing Yemen.

    162. galamcennalath says:

      Love a good paradox. How about this one …

      The hard core far-ish right BritNats don’t want an EURef2 because they know it’s just an attempt to get a Remain vote and since they want Brexit, they don’t want it stopped.

      They don’t want an IndyRef2 because they fear (with good reason) that the hard Brexit they wish will probably give a YES win.

      The less extreme EU leaning BritNats want an EURef2 because they want a Remain vote so they can just call the whole Brexit fiasco off.

      The paradox lies with the hard core BritNats. Getting what they do want i.e. a hard Brexit will bring about Scottish independence, which they definitely don’t want. And, getting what they don’t want, I.e. EURef2 and Brexit stopped would also stop the immediate threat on an IndyRef2, which they do want to stop!

      BritNat life is difficult 🙂

    163. Ken500 says:

      All OAP’s should be allowed to use travel passes on the Trams. The whole of Scotland paid not just Edinburgh. More buses have to run at higher expense.

      Should more cars not be allowed to use the old Forth Road bridge. There seems to be congestion and queues on the new Bridge. The point was to reduce overall congestion.

    164. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Danny,

      You post on a public forum and then tell folk to ‘mind their own fucking business’. Hmmm.

      Feel free to disagree with anyone here, but stop with the name calling.

      Not sure that resorting to terms like ‘hen’ and what was it? ‘wee woman’, ‘drunk’- particularly strengthen your argument (if you have one). Kind of make you look sexist

      And for your info Lizg does a power of work for the Yes movement, posts a lot of good stuff here and is well respected.

      Cheerie the noo.

    165. Tom says:

      Nigel is doing a tour of the UK! I hope he comes back to Edinburgh, he got such a marvellous reception last time. I think I might come and welcome him next time.

    166. Daisy Walker says:

      slogans for EURef2

      Once more, but this time with Feeling

      Feelings, not buses

      Blame the Sweaties, not the EU

      Think of the Berries

    167. Danny says:

      Daisy Walker

      Mind your own fickin business.

      Did you really need to post that tripe.

      This started with me replying to a drunken rant by a person who was obviously steamin last night (Liz G).

      Please butt out and stop trying to impress the “Crowd” Dosy,

      You are also making an arse of yourself hen.

    168. Chick McGregor says:

      It takes something to make the Kardashians appear like a family of intellectuals.

    169. galamcennalath says:

      Why would Scotland (and NI) want an EURef2? As others have said, we gave out opinion in an emphatically clear manner. It was ignored. Why ask us again, if you intend to ignore us again if we vote differently from England, again?

      It’s England (and Wales) who might wish to reconsider their view on Brexit.

      Personally, I think they expressed their view and it should be honoured. England should leave the EU and Scotland and NI should now be given the opportunity to take different paths.

      Ah, but they say it’s all changed, in the same way we say post 2014 has all changed. Has it? What’s different about Brexit now from Brexit pre vote? Not a lot. Look at the official leaflets and info given by the then Tory government about the consequences of Leave, it’s all spelt out.

      One thing which is true though, a surprisingly large number of people seem unable to be to tell when politicians and campaigners are telling blatant lies! The media takes a lot of responsibility for this situation!

    170. Daisy Walker says:

      Nigel Farage is doing a tour – apparently – he has a campaign slogan – Leave means Leave.

      So, that deepens the wealth of human knowledge on the subject some more, doesn’t it.

      Am really liking ‘THINK OF THE BERRIES’. Very Zen.

      One for the tories –

      Vote twice, you know EU want 2
      (As approved by the Electoral Commission – not for other parties).

    171. Famous15 says:

      Something strange with the Queensferry Crossing! Travelling south very congested on approach until the middle of the bridge and suddenly no congestion and little traffic ahead of me. It was wierd.

      Are people “rubber necking” the amazing new bridge,is Alex Coal-Hamilton travelling at 30,are the Tories counting the vehicles crossing the FRB??? Wierd!

    172. Ghillie says:

      Shinty, good on you =)

      Liz g, how are you my friend xxx

      Cactus, you must have arrived just as Edinburgh enacted its own monsoon season. Silly amount of rain falling!

      Our reservoirs are replenishing and our trees drinking like crazy! Long live Scotland =)

    173. I think the third rate Britnat hack Kevin Mckenna has just jumped his own journalistic shark,

      Mr McKenna,what you’ve just written is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever read.

      At no point in your rambling, incoherent column were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.

      Everyone that views it is now dumber for having read it,

      may God have mercy on your soul.

    174. Terry says:

      What a turnout in Dundee yesterday.

    175. Daisy Walker says:

      Dear Danny

      You spelt ‘dosy’ wrong. Should be with a ‘z’. Still never mind petal, sure you’ll improve with time. Like a ken speckled hen.

      Cheerie.

    176. Dave McEwan Hill says:

      Scot Finlayson at 11.43
      Personally I think Kevin was gently taking the p

    177. Flower of Scotland says:

      It was fantastic meeting up with Winger friends. Noticed an increased number of Wings flags on the march. I always carry mine.

      It was a great day!

    178. ScottishPsyche says:

      If just one of these people coming up to tell us how to vote and, more importantly, why we should vote a certain way could step back and look at themselves.

      Just think of the effect a bit of humility, an admission they got it wrong in 2014 when the consequences of a NO vote were clear to so many. Just think how they could engage instead of telling us off for not being compliant and grateful for them wafting across the border now and then.

      If just one of them said they had been wrong or that they would support another Independence vote no matter what, please support a People’s Vote for the EURef, then they might get a better reception.

      Tanja Bueltmann has supported Scottish Independence in the past, was it just because it suited her pro-EU agenda? I cannot understand why she would be so shocked at the Better Together message being so vehemently rejected if she had any understanding of Scottish Politics.

    179. Bob Mack says:

      @Famous 15,

      I think the events in Genoa have made people overly cautious when using suspension bridges.

    180. Chick McGregor says:

      Don’t worry folks, I’m sure Fluffy will come up with a solution after the Coup de’twat.

      National Community Service for the schoolkids during the holidays. A few weeks a year fruit picking, potato lifting, rubbish clearing, gardening etc. That’ll show we don’t need no migrants.

      Of course, some of those shoolkids might form a different opinion after the execise. 😉

    181. Ghillie says:

      Daisy Walker, folk here have a good friend in you =)

    182. Chick McGregor says:

      Yeah Scot,
      I think it was more a piece of subtle McKenna gold rather than him taking it.

    183. Cubby says:

      Dave McEwan Hill @11.04

      The media in Scotland stinks now and it has been stinking of propaganda for a long long time. The papers just play with supporting independence now and again through the odd article just to mess with us. They are all controlled by foreign nationals who have a vested interest in keeping Scotland a prisoner of Westminster. The damage they have done to Scotland and its people is horrendous. They do not deserve any of our money or any of our respect. People who work for these organisations are earning a living running down the country they live in. Total contempt for them.

      Just do not not buy these disgusting propaganda rags. None of them are worth a penny of your money.

    184. @Dave McEwan Hill

      McKenna is not as smart as some folk,himself included, think he is,

      just `cause he talks slow doesn`t mean anything thoughtful ever comes out his trap,(maybe one day),

      although he is not the worse britnat hack the proverb,
      `in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king`, `bout sums up his position in the world of britnat hackdom.

    185. Artyhetty says:

      Looks like the ‘peoplesvotescotland’ so called, remainers on their soap box in Edinburgh yesterday, were there to distract from the huge Dundee independence march, I knew it would feature in the news.

      ‘We love the EU because we love the UK’. Scotland get behind us, or you are being very selfish and abusive for not, on twitter.

      Scotland owes England nothing. Scotland has been treated appallingly for far too long, tolerated it, and is now expected to stand with those who lied about the EU during our referendum in 2014. I do not think so!

      English celebs, you have millions of people you could be shouting at from a soap box, why on earth come to Scotland to tell us we should ‘love the UK’!

      Having lived in Scotland for 300+ years, the ‘UK’ has clearly not ‘loved’ Scotland, but kept her poor and begging. That’s abuse, not love.

      Scottish people have been incredibly patient, and forgiving, now they see how this ‘love the UK’ has conditions attached to it, ie we keep taking your oil, your revenues, house our wmd’s on your doorstep, etc, and you will continue to shut up and put up. Elected majority of SNP MP’s? Ha ha Scotland, we vote and you get what we want, lolz!

      Scotland has to be a bit selfish now, it’s a matter of survival, it’s that bloody simple!

      England sort yourselves out!

    186. Ghillie says:

      ScottishPsyche @ 11.55 am Well said.

      Daisy Walker @ 11.48 am ‘Like a ken speckled hen’ 🙂

      Chick Murray @11.57 am Coup de’twat !!!! 🙂

      Who needs the Fringe =)

      (whisper… are the unionists having this much fun?)

    187. Daisy Walker says:

      @ Ghillie – thanks.

      Do my best, don’t always get it right. And if it means being an ‘arse’ now and again, then so be it. There are worse things.

      Re McKenna’s article – it was fab. Really think KM was trolling his editor rather than anyone else. Made me laugh anyway.

      Well done to everyone at Dundee yesterday. I was thinking of you. 6/10/18 will be there or be square.

    188. ScottishPsyche says:

      Thanks Ghillie

      I must have been composing this the same time as Rev Stu was doing his new article. I’ll repost on the other thread. These Eu2 folk are doing my head in.

    189. Ghillie says:

      Folks, credit where credit is due 🙂

      Wingers do well as Wingers can only do 🙂

    190. Danny says:

      As I said, Daisy Walker or should that be Dosy Wanker, playing to the “crowd” (With a small “c”)

    191. Robert Kerr says:

      Hi All

      Yesterday the guid fowk o’ Lanark held the 24th Annual March and Wreath Laying Ceremony to commemorate the death for “treason” on 23rd August in the Year of Grace 1305 of William Wallace.

      Lest we forget!

      Assembled outside site of his house and listed to the Annual Guardian’s Address given this time by Phillipa Whitford MP and surgeon of note.

      Her SNP presence was complimented by the local MP. MSP. and two councillors.

    192. Highland Wifie says:

      @Dr Jim 10.45am What you said.

      @Daisy Walker 11.11am. What you said.

      Can’t get my head round why people think it’s ok to come steaming up here again to tell us daft Scots why we should be agitating for another EU ref. No sense of irony whatsoever.

      No to another referendum – eh which one Ruthie?

    193. Petra says:

      I see that the Unionist troops are out in full force today. The kiddie-on independence supporters, that come in all shapes and sizes and use a variety of techniques, which includes using each other: talking to, about and even castigating each other with the main aim of trying to ruin this site.

      Meanwhile, I’m visiting the Channel Islands, in, “having the best of both worlds”, Jersey right now, admiring their (totally) pothole, litter free roads and shops with glass in the windows instead of boards. Jersey, forgotten about by Mundell, has one of the most powerfully devolved parliaments in the world. No oil, gas etc, just a wee 9 ml by 5 ml tax haven stuffed full of billionaires / millionaires. No matter the size, it’s great what you can do when your only links to Westminster are Queenie and knowing that you’ll have the Jocks to defend you, if need be, as I was, laughingly, informed of last night. Jocks the ultimate mugs, eh? The main Brexit gripe here is that they didn’t get to vote (not in the EU) and that their Protocol 3 relationship with the EU will have to be renegotiated by some Westminster numptie. Dearie me and too bad, I say, for an island that’s reporting that paupers graves and food bank usage is on the rise.

      Anyway I’ve been trying to keep up with things on here. No mean feat, lol. Some great links / comments, including Dr Jim’s “mitigating” post from a few days previously. I read it out to some locals / tourists who seemed to have some knowledge / sympathy of our plight. What a reaction, from a few tears to real anger followed by a great discussion. Thanks for that Dr Jim X.

      Court Case: Pleased to see that you won that round Stuart. Sends out a message to the Unionist liars, especially the low life’s that attempt to drag Nicola Sturgeon into the fray, and that message is, “it would make sense to reflect on the term “people power”, before you open your big mouth.” And of course count me in Stu, as one of the “people”, lol.

      Michelle Mone: Mone and Channel 4 found a way of highlighting how wee, poor and stupid we are (maybe even get an SNPBaad in?) in conjunction with getting Mone’s daughter some publicity? A future job on the TV? Mone who doesn’t give a damn for the poor, anybody in fact other than herself (daughter being an extension of the narcissistic mother Mone). I’m actually hoping that we ultimately have a hard border between Scotland and England to enable us to keep the riffraff and certain undesirable individuals out, such as members of broadcasting crews and unelected House of Lords parasites.

    194. Liz g says:

      Oh my… been reading the posts backwards so only caught up now..
      Anyhoo..
      Lollysmum @ 9.56am
      Got back ok,but never did find that bus… Thank you for taking the time to speak to the drivers …you are so very kind…looking forward to the next Wings night out and I will fill you in on being stranded in Dundee.. and what to do about it… Ambulance being definitely the fastest route home, but a one point seriously considered arrest!!! We should explore this option at the next night out… LOL X…

      ……………………….
      Shinty @ 9.51am
      Aye Shinty he’s a bit full on… that was a very diplomatic response… I’m going to steal it,, if ye don’t mind?

      ……………………..
      Daisy Walker @ 10.00am & 11.11am
      Thank you Daisy as Ghillie says @ 12.01 you are indeed a friend.
      Sorry you drew the flack for my questions to Danny…but just as an FYI ( all posts are to be commented on I know )
      Any post I make IS yer business as far as I’m concerned..and ye don’t even need tae be sober..X
      ………………………
      Ghillie @ 11.40am
      I am well my friend….and not in the least hungover,thank you for asking.
      Hope you are well too?
      And will we see you at Edinburgh…X.

      ………………
      Highland Wifie @ 2.03
      Thank you for supporting Daisy’s comment,its so heartening to know that we don’t let a derogatory comment stand…
      But,,,then we get right back to business.
      Having read what Wingers have worked through on the next two threads..
      Im pretty convinced there’s an agenda to all of this “people’s vote ” shit!!!
      We are Westminsters cash cow.. They are desperate…
      This stinks!!
      I think Dr Jim put it into perspective.. What would a Scottish vote on the Smith/Myth Commission have achieved???
      We need to watch this…
      They don’t need to be Campaigning in Scotland to reverse Brexit???
      What they …seem…. to be askin!!!?… Is that Nicola ask the YES movement to get behind them.
      We are not there to be of use to Westminster.. they might not understand that now…
      But, they will.. and right soon…

    195. Liz g says:

      Petra @ 2.46pm
      Hope you are having a nice time in the Channel islands..
      Good to hear that you are still talkin up Indy where ever ye go… Yay…
      I know its a bit childish but I’ve always been a bit disappointed that there wasn’t “more” of a border between Scotland and England.. So never saw .. There will be a Border” in 2014 as a threat.
      Ironically if the Borders had been maintained,I suspect that there would have been a better understanding of “The Union” being a Treaty agreement .. and that may??? have made it work!
      Who knows… To little to late anyways,not that I’m complaining.. It was always a stupid arrangement!
      Try Unionsplannin.. tae sumbody as ye will probably find on the Channel islands is twilight zone stuff..
      Any way happy trails Petra… Will we see ye in Edinburgh fur the march?



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