stooges of the Kremlin

Wings Over Scotland


Nazi pugs? Fuck off!

Posted on March 22, 2018 by

The text in the image below might be the scariest words we’ve ever read.

If you’re not sure why, read a little closer.

Do you remember that law being passed, readers? Do you remember the huge public debate about whether it should be possible for the police to arrest, charge and convict people who even those same police openly admitted hadn’t committed any crime?

We don’t, and that’s a little odd. Because there’s a term for that situation. A nation or territory where the police can arrest and punish people who haven’t broken any actual laws, on the whim of any individual officer or an instruction from a superior authority, is quite logically called a “police state”.

A police state isn’t generally regarded as being a good thing. It’s normally the province of brutal oppressive authoritarian regimes like Nazi Germany, or North Korea, or Cold War-era East Germany. And you’re not supposed to be able to turn a democracy into one of those without anybody noticing.

Yet here we are in the UK in 2018 and it just seems to have happened, quietly slipped out on a website with no fanfare or media coverage.

When it was spotted, learned people immediately began identifying all the incredibly serious problems with it. And just as quietly as the page appeared, it was changed, and no longer contains any of the text about things not being criminal offences.

Not that the new version is much less alarming. The highlighting below is ours.

The line “not all hate incidents will amount to criminal offences” pretty clearly implies that some will, so it doesn’t look like anything has fundamentally changed other than the wording. (And however it’s worded, the original version reveals unmistakeably what the police mindset now is on the subject.)

So let’s imagine you say something mildly disobliging to someone in the pub – “I don’t like your shoes”, for the sake of argument. You’re not saying it because they’re gay or disabled or Jewish or anything, you just don’t like their shoes. They’re not too happy – those shoes were expensive – but they don’t think you said it out of prejudice either.

But if someone else – and it could be anyone, from the barman to another customer or an off-duty cop stopping in for a pie and a pint on the way home – THINKS, for no good reason, that you did? Boom, you just committed a crime.

Even though there’s no law against not liking someone’s shoes you’re under arrest, matey. Cancel your plans for the next few hours, because you’re going to be spending them in one of these:

I can verify that that’s a pretty typical representation of a UK police cell, because I spent a day in one last summer. Below is part of the reason why.

As difficult as it may be to believe, that two-year-old tweet to Wings cartoonist Chris Cairns about the painful user interface on Adobe Photoshop was genuinely presented to me, under caution in an interview room, by two ostensibly intelligent adult officers of the Metropolitan Police as proof that I was a dangerous sociopathic maniac prone to issuing “death threats” on social media.

As was this four-year-old one, featuring former Wings cartoonist Greg Moodie, in which we banter lightly about the evil grammatical phenomenon (involving the completely arbitrary capitalisation or non-capitalisation of words) that is “title case”, of which I’m known to have an intense dislike:

The Met had been dispatched to Bath from a presumably crime-free London to deal with these chilling utterances, not by Chris or Greg but by a (“Person” – Ed) I’m still under police advice not to identify on pain of possible re-arrest (any speculation or clues as to their identity in the comments will be deleted and the perpetrator banned), who had also complained that I’d “harassed” her by mentioning her in an uncomplimentary way in some tweets many months beforehand.

I’d made no threats against her whatsoever – not even obviously-joke ones like those above – nor encouraged anyone else to do so, and I’d said absolutely nothing referring to her sex, race, religion, disability or gender identity. (It’s a great shame that you can’t be shown some more of the tweets that were ludicrously presented as evidence of criminal vileness, but see the preceding paragraph.) Yet there I was, in a cell.

After ten hours of detention and four hours of mad, Kafka-esque questioning about why I was so vile and wanted my own cartoonist to commit grisly DIY-based suicide I endured almost three months on police bail, not knowing if any charges would be brought and trying to carry on working without any of my computers, laptops, tablets or phones, all of which the Met had impounded for no reason – the allegations solely concerned a bunch of old tweets, and of course tweets aren’t stored on your computer or phone, but on Twitter’s servers.

(When all the equipment was finally released in November, the police refused to return it to me but demanded I make a 240-mile, six-hour round trip to London and somehow lug back two hefty desktop PCs and everything else on the train. Eventually a kindly officer from Avon & Somerset Police who was on business in London agreed to bring them back with him to his home station in Bridgwater, somewhat more conveniently located a mere two-and-a-quarter-hour round trip from Bath, assuming light traffic.)

But anyway, sanity had eventually prevailed, so it came as quite a shock this week to see a guilty verdict handed down to Mark “Count Dankula” Meechan, a YouTube user from Coatbridge who in 2016 had posted a video of his girlfriend’s pet pug, which he’d taught to raise a paw in a “Hitler salute” when he said “Seig Heil” or “Do you want to gas the Jews?” in the same tone you’d ask a dog “Do you want to go walkies?”

(The joke being that she thought the dog so adorably cute, it would be funny to teach it to react enthusiastically to the worst and most unarguably wrong cue phrase he could think of. In other words, the joke rested entirely on Meechan taking the position that “gas the Jews” was an absolutely terrible thing to say, rather than it being something he was advocating or celebrating.)

Meechan’s YouTube channel had just eight subscribers at the time, all his own friends, but the clip went viral and after three million views the police eventually managed to dredge up someone willing to complain that it was “grossly offensive” under Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003. He now faces up to six months in jail unless he can find £50,000 to mount an appeal against the conviction, and the comments of the sheriff in the case suggest he should expect a sentence at the upper end of the scale.

Meechan’s right to say offensive words in the name of humour had been defended by comedians and Jewish figures alike, including Ricky Gervais, Stephen Fry and David Baddiel, who suggested that the real Nazis would probably have taken a very dim view of anyone teaching a dog to do the Hitler salute, seeing it as mockery. And it turned out that he was exactly right.

The conviction followed just days after police had also questioned under caution a 43-year-old feminist from West Yorkshire known as “Posie Parker”, presumably because her real name is the rather unwieldy Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull. Her offence had been to criticise the actions of the CEO of a transgender activist organisation, who’d taken her 16-year-old son to Thailand for sex-reassignment surgery which was against the law at that age in the UK. (And is now also illegal at that age in Thailand.)

In particular she was in trouble for describing the male-to-female surgery that the child had (willingly) undergone as “castration”, even though the procedure – removal of both testicles, known medically as “bilateral orchidectomy” – unquestionably and simply IS castration by any understood definition of that term.

The police told Keen-Minshull that she was a “test case” for supposed “transphobia” on those grounds, and also that she refuses to refer to biological males as women. She remains in limbo waiting to hear if a prosecution for hate crime will be launched.

But what does all this have to do with the price of stamps in an independent Scotland?

The answer, starkly, is that there is now no longer any effective freedom of speech anywhere in the UK. Literally anything you say can now – if someone chooses to find it “offensive”, or just says that they do, or believes without any reason or evidence that it was motivated by prejudice – result in your arrest, prosecution and imprisonment.

And while that’s bad enough, it’s a particularly big problem when the only media you have on your side is social and online media, because – and we didn’t know this until now – the rules about “offensive” comment are completely different, and far more stringent, for online sources compared to traditional non-electronic media.

The paper-and-ink press still has very considerable power and influence and can defend itself against attempted censorship, intimidation or even regulation, but individuals on websites or Facebook or Twitter or YouTube don’t and can’t, which is probably why the press has barely reported any of this stuff, other than the suitably lurid and sensationalist “Nazi pug” trial.

Although you might think Britain essentially becoming an authoritarian state was fairly significant news, it simply isn’t much of a problem for them.

It’s not illegal to say that you don’t like someone’s shoes, or that they’re stupid, or to make a daft joke, or to teach your dog to lift its paw, or to say that removing a person’s testicles is castrating them, or to believe that someone who meets every scientific and taxonomic definition of the word “man” that humankind has used since the invention of language is a man, not a woman (which is, in context, the opposite of a man).

But it IS now explicitly illegal to hurt someone’s feelings by doing any of those things – even if you didn’t mean to hurt their feelings – and since someone’s hurt feelings are subjective and not measurable, there’s no way that you can ever possibly prove your innocence against such a charge.

It is now an inescapable and undefendable crime, in other words, just to have someone THINK that you were THINKING something illegal when you committed an otherwise totally lawful act.

Your thoughts alone – or rather, simply your perceived, alleged thoughts – can now be criminal in and of themselves. The person accusing you doesn’t even have to be the “victim”, if there is one at all. They don’t need any evidence. And the mere fact of their having accused you de facto proves you’re guilty.

To put it very mildly indeed, that’s a problem for anyone doing anything which might be perfectly legal, peaceful and democratic but which the state doesn’t like. If you need that verified or just want to know where it ends, go and ask someone in Catalonia.

And – quite aside from how utterly terrifying that is in its own right – we presumably don’t need to point out how it applies to campaigners for Scottish independence. In the first referendum the No camp contented itself with merely vilifying Yes supporters in the media, not actually persecuting them. We suspect that when the second one comes around, the stakes are about to get a lot higher.

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    1. 24 03 18 22:16

      Herald journalist apologises after labelling blogger ‘Ultra-nationalist’ – Towards Indyref2…

    2. 25 03 18 23:28

      How writing to the Herald could get you into trouble – soccer doc's blog

    199 to “Nazi pugs? Fuck off!”

    1. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      For those who don’t get the title:

    2. Monica Worley says:

      Note that the definition under Scottish law doesn’t say that about charging anyone for a hate incident.
      http://www.scotland.police.uk/keep-safe/advice-for-victims-of-crime/hate-crime/what-is-hate-crime/
      Thank goodness! Time to move!

    3. Macart says:

      Thinkpol.

      When fiction becomes fact.

    4. heedtracker says:

      Does laughing your arse off at a Pug dog going Heil Hitler, also get you jail time? Just the thought of lined up nazi monsters saluting, with a Pug dog doing it at the end of the line up, is enough.

      See all you vile seps in the Big House soon!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW1hazYKd5o

    5. @BoatyJames says:

      These are very very worrying developments whichever side of the independence debate you come from. Very scary.

    6. John says:

      Scary. Even scarier is the link at the bottom of the Police Scotland page Monica has posted in the first comment. Whilst the content of the page is worthy reading please DON’T let curiosity lead you to click the link titled ‘click here if you want to navigate away from this page quickly’.

      Now THAT redirection is a hate crime!

    7. frogesque says:

      Where exactly do I stand if I’m quietly minding my own business while bedecked in a Yes2 Saltire?

      Suppose I meet some gentle precious wee soul wearing a balaclava, carrying a red, white and blue baseball bat and a Union Bears placard. ( Other bigoted sectarian groups are available). Am I guilty of a hate crime on the grounds that their he/she/it bestie’s mate thinks my garb is offensive?

      FFS!

    8. Proud Cybernat says:

      A reaction by the The State / Establishment of losing its grip over people’s minds. The explosion of Social Media has blown the doors wide open and shown the Establishment for the corrupt entity that it is.

      This is their knee-jerk reaction to try (to coin a phrase) and ‘take back control’.

      Too late is my estimation.

    9. frogesque says:

      Aye richt, it’s back disrupting again.

    10. Ken says:

      Just wondering about the utterly fantastic “I will kill you with hammers”…

      Is *that* gonna have to go!?

    11. Indy2 says:

      Another excellent post Rev.

      keep up the good work.

    12. Bob Mack says:

      Might have to buy my own breakfast in the morning.

    13. Reluctant Nationalist says:

      Well, Indyref2, I apologise. Hurt feelings are enough.

      It’s just a matter of raz until I get carted off by the millicents to diversity skolliwol. Pray for me my bratties.

    14. jfngw says:

      @Monica Worley

      Being in Scotland may not stop you from being under English law, ask Craig Murray as he was taken to an English court despite his comments being made in Scotland. You can only be protected (I think) if your comments don’t travel outside Scotland, pretty difficult on social media.

    15. Bob Mack says:

      Anybody reported that Labour Councillor yet ? He would look good behind bars

    16. Andy-B says:

      We’ve been moving in this direction for years, PC is definitely out of control, it’s a way of controlling the masses.

      It won’t be long before Minoriry Report thinking by the authorities becomes a realisation.

    17. Archbishop of Dork says:

      Could someone please explain the devolved/reserved thing to Richard Leonard in simple terms?

      Now Richard, some powers are called devolved because they’re near. While some powers are called reserved because they’re far away……..near…..far away………near…….far away…….aw forget it!

    18. yesindyref2 says:

      Cats actually understand everything you say, and exercise thought control at will.

      I will obey.

    19. Thepnr says:

      It follows then that reporting someone you hate of a hate crime is also a crime in itself. Ridiculous.

    20. frogesque says:

      Well, on second thoughts, fuck this shit they can’t put us all in the Tanty.

    21. Ken500 says:

      The Police chiefs should be put in jail for breaking the Law and given diversity training. Until they understand their role as public servants. Serving the public not criminalising them illegally. Or just consult a lawyer, if that is affordable.

      You do not have to open the door to the Police. They will put a note through the door. They will soon get fed up spending hours on end to break the Law. On malicious complaint. Wasting Police time and public money. They are building an empire trying to criminal the population. Yet letting misogynist, bigot and racist thugs patrol the streets. Ruining the economy.

      Moray Council will not put up the Council tax for the wealthy. Now complaining about having no money. They should step down. Not fit for public office. They can’t count or read a balance sheet. Useless incompetence.

      May off looking for EU support. She wants out of the EU.

      ‘They are in, with opt outs. They want out with opts in’. Useless incompetents. They haven’t got a clue.

    22. Greg says:

      Truly very worrying for Indyref2.
      And I’m always very careful to follow the rules on comments here as I do not want to be killed by hammers.
      Greg #BringScotlandHome

    23. Greg says:

      Shiiiit!!!! 😮

    24. JLT says:

      And Orwell’s vision of a Airstrip One takes another step forward in becoming reality.

      Not only do we have the hourly dose from the ‘Ministry of Truth’ aka the BBC telling us what the enemy is doing in Eurasia, but it is in our best interests to have a closer relationship with Oceania to the west.

      On top of that, Airstrip One’s slogans of the current period include “War is peace”, “Freedom is slavery”, and “Ignorance is strength” are doing wonders for the masses, while any thoughts against Big Brother will now be treated as ‘thought crime’. Such individuals who so much as tread from the governmental path will be arrested and detained for doctrinal re-evaluation and retraining.

      While austerity is enforced by the ‘Ministry of Plenty’, the ‘Ministry of Truth’ continues to deride every organisation that attacks Airstrip One; especially the great enemy, Emmanuel Goldstein; also known as Jeremy Corbyn, who will be shown in his Cossack hat standing at the Kremlin and therefore must be denounced as a puppet of Eurasia.

      Seriously …I f****** well doff my cap at Orwell. The man was an absolute visionary.

    25. Ken500 says:

      More Tory – unionists trying to control or shut down the internet for political reasons. Nae chances. Who votes for these incompetents. Brainwashed people.

    26. jfngw says:

      I suppose to protect ourselves we should all use a reliable VPN, never use your real name and a burner email address when posting on any sites. This requires not using twitter, facebook or similar as you are leaving too many personal traces.

      It’s just a lot of effort and the politicians actually want to shut us up.

    27. Breeks says:

      Well that’s another dystopian 1984 box ticked…

      Big Brother Snoopers charter. Check.
      View Screens in your homes full of State Propaganda. Check.
      Daily 2 Minute Hate. Check.
      Political Doublespeak. Check. Check. Check. Check.
      Rewriting of history. Check.
      Demonisation of Political opponents. Check.
      Constant War with RussoAsia or Arabasia. Check.

      What’s missing? Ah yes, of course. Thought Crime. Now a formal reality. You can go to jail, not for what you think, but for what somebody thinks you think. Check.

      Can I order my boiler suit now?

      War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength.

      I think some rogue at Eton has slipped Orwell’s 1984 into the 19th Century Modern Studies Curriculum and now the Toffs think it’s a feckin’ instruction manual for all the Sons and Daughters of the Empire being programmed for Governance in the Colonies…

      …And theres a criminal conviction already! No not for the dangerous inflammatory hatred printed in the Daily Mail or Express, but for the only man in the Country with the foresight to train his dog to salute Fascists. Mark my words, before very long, they’ll be training dogs to make us all salute the Fascists too…

      Now why am I not finding that wee quip especially funny???

    28. David Bruce says:

      I’m so grateful I live in Scotland where the Police (Service of Scotland) have guidelines approved by the Lord Advocate (we’ve seen a fair bit of the current incumbent recently) on investigating and reporting crimes/complaints.
      (I’ve pasted the guidelines on Hate Crime from the PSoS website below.)
      The police, in Scotland, investigate complaints and if there is sufficient evidence submit reports to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service. The COPFS decides whether or not to initiate legal proceedings and which process, Solemn or Summary and at which of the three Courts those proceedings will be heard. I don’t recognise this country wherein the police can arrest, charge and convict a person.
      As for the ‘saluting dog’, was training the dog to respond in such a way funny, I’ll judged or offensive? It’s in the eye of the beholder. Was it a good idea to post the footage on the internet? Evidently not.

      And yes, I get your point about the stakes being upped and the abuse of power, it should cause us concern. It’s worth remembering how often has this site has highlighted abusive and threatening tweets. The answer, as WGD has frequently stated, is to rise above such behaviour when challenging British Nationalists who are obviously talking pish.

      (From Police Scotland website)
      What Is Hate Crime

      Definition – Crime motivated by malice or ill will towards a social group by:

      Race.
      Sexual orientation.
      Religion/faith.
      Disability.
      Transgender/gender identity (Offences (Aggravated by Prejudice) Act 2010).
      Hate crimes are abhorrent and target marginalised and vulnerable members of our communities with devastating effect on both victims and their families.

      Police Scotland is committed to making it as easy as possible for victims to report hate crime.

      We have identified hate crime as a high priority under the classification of violence, disorder and anti-social behaviour and continue to place a high priority on such crime, with the aim of:

      Increasing the confidence of victims to report hate crimes/incidents.
      Adopting a multi-agency response to dealing with hate crime.
      Increasing action against perpetrators through intelligence led pro-active policing and robust enforcement.
      We continually review incidents and crimes to identify current and new trends, and target our resources accordingly.
      A hate incident is any incident that is not a criminal offence, but something which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hate or prejudice.

      If you or someone you know is the victim of hate crime, we have various ways that you can report it. Call us on 101, visit your nearest police office or use our online form.

      Third party reporting

      In some cases victims/witnesses of Hate Crime do not feel comfortable reporting the matter directly to the Police and may be more comfortable reporting it to someone they are familiar with.

      To ensure all victims/witnesses are able to report Hate Crimes, Police Scotland works in partnership with a wide variety of partners who perform the role of 3rd Party Reporting Centres. Staff within 3rd Party Reporting Centres have been trained to assist a victim or witness in submitting a report to the police and can make such a report on the victim/witnesses behalf.

      Examples of 3rd Party Reporting Centres participating in the scheme range from Housing Associations to Victim Support offices and Voluntary Groups. Find your nearest Third Party Reporting Centre.

    29. Legerwood says:

      Reporting Scotland tonight led with a report on the Labour Councillor who made remarks about Humza Yousaf.

      When introducing the report the standard warning was given: ‘people may find some of the language offensive’.

      Is this now a crime if someone decides they are offended?

      The law used in the pug case seems to be a UK-wide law.

      And people thought the OBFA was a badly drafted Act then this came out of the woodwork!

    30. Daniel says:

      Could one not, for example, issue a number of similar complaints against members of the government? It wouldn’t take an extreme leap of thought to consider, the arguing for, writing of, or voting for, of any legislation regarding reductions in benefits to disabled persons as hate crimes. Doubly so, as said legislation has been linked to thousands of deaths.

      Wouldn’t it be a simple matter of people launching a number of these accusations at many MP’s before the legislation around this was deemed utterly farcical and thrown out?

    31. RedStarTrout says:

      I’ve just read an article on the Scotsman website by Martyn Mclaughlin about certain councilors and their need for diversity training.
      How do I go about reporting the entire comments section (with a few exceptions) to Police Scotland or to the Met?

    32. galamcennalath says:

      It’s all about the system losing control. The online world is informing folks and shining lights on powerful figures and organisations like nothing before ever has.

      So they scrabble to do two thing:-

      Firstly to give themselves tools to deal with individuals who poise a threat. Initial ‘test cases’ will be on marginal subjects, but once precedent is set, they can be applied to shield authority and maintain control. More than anything, it won’t be application, it will be the ever present threat of application which keeps people quiet.

      Think of Orwell’s 1984. There were no laws and nothing was illegal, however anyone stepping out of line could expect harsh treatment!

      Secondly to use the online world itself for manipulation and control. And we’ve seen much about that in the last week with Facebook, dodgy apps, and election opinion changing.

      A solution? Create a state where the constitution and legal system protects its citizens from these threats rather than deploys them against its own population.

    33. Dorothy Devine says:

      If the MSM and so called journalists were actually doing their job , perhaps the internet would not be needed.

      Alas and alack ,they are doing the bidding of their masters and no longer the Fourth estate the buffer twixt our Lords and masters evils reporting without fear or favour , ferreting out the truth and showing folk up.

      They have negated themselves and boy are they sore losers.

      Having watched the twisted reports on Russia ” the war of words ‘ as some pillock decided to call the response from the Russian ambassador to the inept , insulting Johnson , I despair .

      I do hope the Russian people and their leaders know that there are many who mistrust the output of Westminster and their sycophantic, manipulative media.

    34. Street Andrew says:

      Added to which the hysterical waves of media hype about terrorism has been used to justify an increasing number of police personnel carrying arms.

      “Kafka-esque” gets pretty close.

      The irony is that much of this creeping authoritarianism is being stealthily introduced by the very people who insist they believe in ‘small government’.

    35. Dr Jim says:

      Good replacement for OBFA

      Does this mean we can have all the so called singing football supporters arrested before they leave the house then coz they offend me a great deal..Oooh and the orange lot as well

      The Polis’s phone’s gonnae be ringin aff the hook

      Remember tae keep lookin doon when yer oot in case sumdy disnae like yer face, and nae smilin, that could be interpreted as smirkin threateningly

    36. John Thomson says:

      Wonder if they will use this before, during or after July marches

    37. heedtracker says:

      I do hope the Russian people and their leaders know that there are many who mistrust the output of Westminster and their sycophantic, manipulative media.”

      It also begs the question, where is the The European Convention on Human Rights in all this?

      Oh shit, we’ve just lost our EU citizenship aside, there is a clear listing here of rights and none of them are, “excuse me officer, I have been offended by this youtube vid and I want to report a crime.”

      https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/what-european-convention-human-rights

      so not excluding all the rest of the rights EU citizens presumably are protected by and from

      the right not to be punished for something that wasn’t against the law at the time (Article 7)
      the right to respect for family and private life (Article 8)
      freedom of thought, conscience and religion (Article 9)
      freedom of expression (Article 10)
      freedom of assembly (Article 11)

      Which of these does the Heil Hitler Pug dog video contravene or did plod break EU human rights law?

    38. Robert Louis says:

      Some may find this interesting;
      https://www.economist.com/news/britain/21738377-british-institutions-may-not-withstand-authoritarian-populist-wave-it-could-happen-britain

      As for the pug thing, I kind of think prosecuting the guy is utterly absurd, and the sheriff responsible for the conviction needs to think again. Goodness sake, just a daft video. Nobody is forced to watch it. If they find it offensive, they can switch it off.

      I hope the guy takes it all the way to the court of human rights, just to show the court responsible and the police involved how ridiculous the world thinks they are. Scotland has too many police officers if this is how they spend their time.

      Madness. This is about freedom of speech and a growing trend towards a police state.

      The tweets the rev were arrested for are just ludicrous. That the police would waste their time on such utter, utter nonsense, beggars belief.

      A police state doesn’t happen overnight. It happens slowly bit by bit, new law after new law, until freedom is removed. But by then it is too late, and you can no longer speak out or stop it. Oh, and neither can politicians. A police state is an awful trap for a country.

      These are scary times. The politicians need to get a f******* grip, and stop the hateful rhetoric.

    39. Greannach says:

      I’m offended by Nationwide Building Society adverts on grounds of good taste. I feel that the poets/performers are targeting me for having high standards.

      Can I get them and the woman from the Trivago advert jailed? I’m sick of them.

      What about children advertising Andrex? Cou

    40. Iain mhor says:

      @Monica Worley

      Hmm I’m not so sure about not being charged. But you may have your finger on the nub of it all the same.
      There appear to be two seperate categories there.
      Hate Incident & Hate Crime.
      “A Hate Incident is any incident that is not a criminal offence, but something which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by hate or prejudice”

      A Hate Crime is a “Crime motivated by malice or ill will towards a social group…”
      “We have identified hate crime as a high priority under the classification of violence, disorder and anti-social behaviour…”

      It appears ‘hate crime’ is certainly going to lead to a charge as a criminal offence (violence, disorder, Asbo)
      But as you pointed out, there does not appear to be a specific criminal offence classification for a hate incident.
      However, I see it being easy to conflate a hate incident with a hate crime and to be honest I don’t see where it’s delineated, the text itself appears to be conflating the two.
      “Hate Crimes/Incidents”

      Having some passing experience of the “Polis” I don’t fancy my chances of engaging them in semantics and convincing them not to chuck me in the pokey!
      Laws sneaking in under the radar eh, don’t you just hate that…err oops.

    41. Robert Louis says:

      street andrew at 652pm,

      Totally agree with you re the armed police. I see them standing outside holyrood, and their is no need for it on display in that way. None. This is not London.

    42. ALANM says:

      I was working in a pub in Largs when the Race Relations Act 1976 was passed (with the best of intentions of course). The landlord observed that until that day he’d be able to refuse service to anyone at his sole discretion without giving a reason. Following this change in the law he could now only refuse service to any white person without giving a reason. Make of that what you will.

    43. HandandShrimp says:

      A lot of the No side including mainstream journalists and of course Spanner used incredibly intemperate language gainst the Yes supporters.

      How even handed will the application of this be…he asks suspecting he knows the answer.

      Thought the dog thing was very poor taste but never expected he would be jailed. There has to be some sort of common sense applied to hate and offence.

    44. Bob Mack says:

      It would appear the police have conferred this power on themselves. The Communications Act 2003 issued guidelines which clearly indicate that if a posting is intended for humour ,even if it is offensive or distasteful to one or many,it should not be considered an offence.

      It seems the police therefore have become the judges of that, but if the court follows the guidelines there is no way they would gain a conviction for many posts that I have seen.

    45. CmonIndy says:

      This will collapse in on itself as thousands of claims get showered on already stretched police forces.

    46. Britain nowadays seems to be populated with thin-skinned people.
      As my old granny used to tell us when we went home crying, sticks and stanes’ll brake yer brains but names will never hurt ye. I’m now 86 years old.

    47. kinters says:

      The biggest shock was the Scottish Greens voting to repeal the Football Act which will give more power to the thugs on the terraces.

    48. Clive Scott says:

      It cannot have been pleasant to be a guest of PC Plod for 4 hours and thereafter kept in limbo for 3 months. On the other hand, what a fantastic insight into the trembling heart of the establishment. Makes me wonder if Londoners could bring down May and overturn Brexit if they got out on the streets like they did for the poll tax all those years ago.

    49. Harry mcaye says:

      On the plus side, maybe we can now get Brian Spanner put in the pokey.

    50. Captain Haddock says:

      On the plus side it probably means that most daily mail and other tabloid journalist should be spending a lot of time talking to the Met. All it takes is for us to be offended on someone’s behalf and they’ll have to endure similar “treatment” to that of Stu. The only difference being that they actually use hate speech and are offensive.

    51. Things really have become very stupid when the police, be they in England or Scotland, are entertaining complaints of the type brought against Stuart Campbell. It is not uncommon to hear callers to radio phone-in programmes complain about police inaction in England on cases of burglary, petty theft or damage to property, which are real actual crimes. While I am not libertarian, I think that the authorities in the UK (all of them) really do need to take a close look at themselves. I also think that some elected Scottish politicians (SNP included) ought to start thinking clearly before rushing to complain about things they have seen on twitter.

    52. Amazing that the police have the time to do this when, according to today’s news, an HMIP report suggests that some 999 calls are taking several days to answer. (England and Wales.)

    53. KingBoab says:

      So, anyone with a disability could claim hate crimes made against them by the Tory government. Interesting.

    54. Bob Mack says:

      @King Bob,

      No sorry. This Act only applies to Communications.

    55. ALANM says:

      A lot of people here are missing the point. When the police – as they do in England – have the power to decide whether or not a crime has been committed and the right to assume you’re guilty until you’re able to prove yourself innocent then you’re living in a police state.

    56. Bob Mack says:

      The basic premise of any law is innocent till proved guilty.

      However the police can arrest question and charge you but you are still innocent till proved otherwise in a court of law.

    57. Vestas says:

      Only thing which surprised me was the source of the complaint – and only in that it was so far down the food chain it beggared belief.

      You live in England same as me Stu, so you know how the English police view “banter” which would be a hate crime outside England & Wales.

      There’s a reason the CPS (Crown Office) is so named & its not because it acts in the interests of plebs.

    58. ronnie anderson says:

      Hip hip Hooray that’s the end of the Daily Mails & Express headlines noo the Mets oan the case , an if ah go doon sooth & sumbudy caws me Jock I’ll be deeply offended .

    59. Effijy says:

      Rev, we need to have a fund raise to get you out of Fascist England and buy you flat in Sunny Aberdeen near the beach.

      Absolutely horrific government South of Scotland.
      They attack the disabled, refuse benefits for weeks on end to people who have been working for 50 years and paying Insurance contributions, they no longer have a Police force that can support the community, they are privatising and killing off the NHS, they invest £Billions in bombs while millions of it citizens are going hungry and trying to access food banks.

      We have got to part company with these beasts from the South!

    60. Normski says:

      “I can verify that that’s a pretty typical representation of a UK police cell, because I spent a day in one last summer…”

      When did they start installing beds?

    61. fillofficer says:

      20 yrs ago it was suggested that there would be an epidemic of Creutzfeldt–Jakod disease because of the BSE crisis.
      maybe this is what they were predicting
      its all gone nuts, whole hazelnuts

    62. Robert Louis says:

      O/T, BUT IMPORTANT TOMORROW.

      Remember, the hands off our parliament demo tomorrow at Holyrood. Make sure you go, don’t assume ‘others’ will do so. This is a chance to make it clear to London that the parliament belongs to the people of Scotland. It is not a plaything for unelected English lords and (astonishingly) bishops from the church of England.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/hoop-hands-off-our-parliament/

      It is very, very important to get a good turnout – otherwise London will just carry on assuming nobody cares. The blatantly biased, anti-Scotland BBC will of course only show it, if their is a poor turnout.

    63. ronnie anderson says:

      Am mortificated when sumbudy picks their nose in public do we hiv tae issue the polis wie paper hankies .

    64. Meg merrilees says:

      So we’ll be about to see the last QT programme ever tonight then!!! No more utter tosh.

    65. Meg merrilees says:

      Oh, and does that mean we can complain if we find Boris Johnson’s ‘Hitler remark’ offensive?

    66. Mad Unionist says:

      That cell looks like luxury and better than throwing up under the Heilanmans Umbrella after shooting up. When I was in the Tobago St nick in the Calton people had written their names oan the wa and ceilin wae their shite then they bit their nails. Breakfast was hot water with milk and rolls with blue moulded spam. The Glesga polis had a sense of humour. Your honour he accidentally fell doon the stairs.
      Aye Glesga is ma hame.

    67. Brian McHugh says:

      I’ve honestly come to the conclusion that we are living in a time when the powers that be have successfully pitted the left against the right, to such a point that the sane middle have fuck all chance.

    68. stewartb says:

      Robert Louis @8:30 pm

      About your “O/T, BUT IMPORTANT TOMORROW.”

      You write: “It is very, very important to get a good turnout – otherwise London will just carry on assuming nobody cares. The blatantly biased, anti-Scotland BBC will of course only show it, if their is a poor turnout.”

      Just want to re-inforce your comment – right now, this is even more important to be at than an Indy Event. We need a huge turnout for this – just hope the choice of day and the publicity will prove to have been fit for purpose.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/hoop-hands-off-our-parliament/

    69. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      1984:

      War is peace, Freedom is slavery, Ignorance is strength

      2018:

      Brexit means Brexit, Take back control, Our Precious Union, UK Single/Common Market

    70. Ken500 says:

      Many people would call Lorna Taylor a hero. Getting the Tories telt. The cheating, lying, deceitful Tories.

      Lesley Roberts is not.

      The DR is rubbish.

      Robin McAlpine will put people off Independence. Haverer. A fifth columnist. Nicola can’t speak out on Reserved matters because people voted NO. Not part of the brief. Not worth the hassle. Get them another way. Find another way around.

    71. Meg merrilees says:

      Hoping for a good turn out tomorrow at Holyrood – neighbour and self will be there.

      Don’t let the weather put you off folks – it’s a crucial moment in our country’s history.

      mustn’t say anything to offend anyone though…

    72. W.J.Watt says:

      “A police state isn’t generally regarded as a good thing. It’s normally the province of brutal oppressive authoritarian regimes like Nazi Germany, or North Korea, or Cold War-era East Germany. And you’re not supposed to be able to turn a democracy into one of those without anybody noticing.”

      One thing that all these nations did was make it nigh on impossible to own a firearms and to disarm the masses, Hitler, Stalin and every other tyranical nation did it, the UK did it 20 years ago and it is the main reason the gun owners of America hold the 2nd amendment dear

      I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.”

      The thing I love about the oath of allegience is Defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC, and when you take into the equation the 2nd amendment which was brought in partly because of Lexington and Concord , battles fought in 1775, came about when British troops sought to seize privately owned arms , belonging to the colonists.

      The 2nd Amendement reads “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.” The well regulated Militia , pretty much means that the people would be trained and disciplined which was necessary to enable the fledgling nation to remain a state that was not ruled again by a tyrannical ruler, like what happened when it was run by Westminster before the Americans tried to make a sea of tea up in Boston, and the no taxation without representation.

      It has been thought although no evidence shows that Thomas Jefferson said “When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.”, well that is the way Britain is headed now, but they made sure that no one can easily start an uprising by making sure pistols and handguns were banned after Dunblane, and Semi automatic rifles over the calibre of .22 rimfire were banned after Hungerford, and when some circles claim Thomas Hamilton was forced to commit Dunblane before his links to the government paedophile ring would be made common knowledge(Tinfoil hat territory, I know) but the people of Scotland cant stop a British tyrannical police state, and that is the way the sheep have walked into the trap, over the pond, the liberals are using kids to try and curb gun laws, being a post apocalyptic writer makes you think some scary things, and if you read many post apoc or dysotopian sci fi books as I do, the ways things are going are turnng Science Fiction into Science Fact,

    73. Bob Mack says:

      “In the end we shall make thought crime literally impossible, because there will be no words with which to express it”

      Not my type of world at all. Can soldiers now face charges forswearing in combat?

      Can thugs get bigger sentences for swearing at the police than for urinating in a close?

      The mind boggles.

    74. OT. My niece Siobhan Collatin visited us from Toronto for two weeks in the summer. She thought Scotland was looking wonderful.

    75. Rock says:

      “I can verify that that’s a pretty typical representation of a UK police cell, because I spent a day in one last summer.”

      You should get out of this police state before they get you for good.

      Rock (13th June 2014 – “To the editor of the Scotsman”):

      “Remember that you are now the 2nd biggest threat to the Establishment and they will do everything in their power to get you.

      My advice to you would be to move to Iceland – NOW – and carry on your work from there.”

    76. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “The Police chiefs should be put in jail for breaking the Law and given diversity training. Until they understand their role as public servants. ”

      The role of the police has always been to protect the Establishment and their police state from the “plebs”.

    77. yesindyref2 says:

      Scroll on by please. Nothing to see here and I mean nothing.

    78. Rock says:

      Ken500,

      “Nicola can’t speak out on Reserved matters because people voted NO. Not part of the brief. Not worth the hassle.”

      In that case why did Nicola and the SNP make utter fools of themselves by standing “shoulder to shoulder” with Saint Theresa in condemning Russia?

      Shouldn’t Nicola have kept her mouth shut as this was clearly a “reserved matter”?

      Everyone and their dog knows that the Russian state had nothing to do with the alleged poisoning of the British spy and his daughter.

      Did it even happen? Where is the evidence?

    79. Brian McHugh says:

      The first time I ever heard the term “The UK single market”, I said to myself “Oh fuck, here we go!”

    80. Muscleguy says:

      @frogesque
      A pertinent question. I happened to walk to the shops today wearing a black fleece with a Yes badge, A RIC ‘Another Scotland is Possible’ badge, a CND symbol badge and a Bu Choir badge. It was dry and not absolutely Baltic so I wasn’t wearing my coat with just a Yes2 and a CND badge on it.

      Now, this was in the Yes City and thus far I have only ever had, post Brexit result when I redonned them, positive reactions. But this is Broughty Ferry and we return two Tories to DCC before anyone else gets a look in.

      Fortunately I’m mild mannered but broad shouldered, flat stomached and somewhat toned and I don’t get bothered, much.

      Our two, supposedly sectarian, fitba teams actually seriously considered amalgamation not that long ago. Their supposed affiliations are only brought up when when fans of either of the Old Firm arrive in whichever ground is the ‘wrong’ one. Much to the bemusement of the locals.

      I think perhaps we should separate out the Old Firm into the Bias League all by themselves then the rest of Fitba can quietly forget about sectarianism.

    81. Ian Brotherhood says:

      If anyone is still using FB, could you please stick this up?

      The question is:

      ‘Should Stuart Campbell of Wings Over Scotland close his Twitter account?’

      (23 votes in the first 5/6 mins, 96% saying No)

      https://twitter.com/ianbhood/status/976937981184499715

    82. yesindyref2 says:

      @Ian B
      That was probably Rev’s emergency kitten voted Yes.

    83. Brian Doonthetoon says:

      hi yesindyref2 at 9:45 pm.

      You typed,
      “Scroll on by please. Nothing to see here and I mean nothing.”
      I agree. No point in kinterin’/rockin’ the lifeboat of independnce.

    84. Robert Peffers says:

      @Breeks says: 22 March, 2018 at 6:42 pm:

      “Well that’s another dystopian 1984 box ticked…”

      Always look on the bright side of Life, Breeks.

      They’re going to need bigger prisons, more police stations, more courts and more equipment like handcuffs and police vans.

      Get your portfolio built up now before the share prices go through the roof.

    85. yesindyref2 says:

      @BDTT
      Thing is as well, two of those who reply have got far more interesting things to say, just reading with interest their exchange on the last thread.

    86. Ken500 says:

      The Police in England are taking days to answer 999 calls that are supposed to be answered in an hour. Reported crime is not being investigated. Shortage of funding and manpower. May has be called out for telling lies about Police cuts.

      Yet they can question people for telling a joke Non appreciated.

    87. Dr Jim says:

      Evidence just in who poisoned the Russian spy
      it was a war medal manufacturing company that doubles in poppies and wreaths

      but they’re well respected and believe in God so undeniably British and American

    88. Robert Peffers says:

      @ronnie anderson says: 22 March, 2018 at 8:06 pm:

      “an if ah go doon sooth & sumbudy caws me Jock I’ll be deeply offended.”

      Ach! Ronnie, ye canna dae that, they’ll jist ca ye Sweatie insteed.
      ;-))

    89. Jock McDonnell says:

      British passports should be ‘made in England’ – got that jockie, ok.

    90. Famous15 says:

      So much bullshit so much deflection.

      The fucking dog had bugger all to do with it.It was the accompanying comments saluting the gassing of Jews.

      What is it about racism?I hate the State of Israel treating the Palestinians abominably but my complaints are diluted by eejits saying racism is not racism.

    91. kinters says:

      Question Time,,what a load of english nonsense.

      The sooner we are out of this Union the better.

    92. mike cassidy says:

      Dr Jim 10.29

      ???

    93. kinters says:

      The SNP Defence Secretary on QT getting stuck into the Russians and taking the Tory Prime Minister’s side regarding this poisoning.

      Hard to watch

      The SNP are better keeping as low a profile as possible when it comes to this poisoning because they are digging a huge hole for themselves.

    94. Capella says:

      Orwellian and Kafkaesque at the same time.
      Stu will need a cast iron backup system. Another few thousand in the fundraiser needed?

      I wonder if the difference in Scots Law means the same procedures wouldn’t apply here.

    95. Old Pete says:

      Stuart McDonald not performing well on QT, not representing my views as an SNP member well at all.
      Think the SNP need to up their game when they are on the TV or radio, do they get any media training ? If they do then they need a rethink. We will need strong representatives if we are to win a future Independence referendum.

    96. Dr Jim says:

      @mike cassidy

      The insane ramblings of my conspiracy theorists mind

      Just my way of referencing the fact still nobody’s produced any evidence as to who did the bad thing except Britain says Russia tells lies and Russia says Britain tells more and bigger lies and everybody seems to be whipping it up and it reminds me of the *There are definitely WMDs let’s get a war going* and the guy who said there weren’t any WMDs turned up coveniently dead and again nobody could provide any evidence of why

      Or the SNP guy who was going to expose peers and Tories in a sex scandal and he amazingly turned up dead

      In the end all sides blame each other for their own ends but we the people never find out anything until thousands of us get dead and thirty years later when it’s too late and distant in the memory for folk to even care they do it all over again

      So it might as well be the guy who makes the war medals who did it coz in the here and now he’s the only ordinary guy who makes any money out of it, not the company because they’re probably a secret

      But have you noticed how happy all the politicians in Europe and America are now, slapping each other on the back and smiling at each other at the idea of upsetting the Russians together as one

    97. Capella says:

      Update from Craig Murray whose site is still under a DDOS attack. He is asking for others to retweet or circulate this article.

      https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2018/03/boris-johnson-a-categorical-liar/

    98. Terry says:

      @kinters
      Good points on bbc qt Snp rep. He also referred to ‘the country’ and he meant the uk!!! Robert Peffers should be getting him some education there.

      On a serious note the uk isn’t a country and I’m really surprised to hear an elected Snp mp saying that. If you say it you think it. Where’s the chance of Indy if our own Indy MPs think and speak like that?

    99. heedtracker says:

      kinters says:
      22 March, 2018 at 11:48 pm
      The SNP Defence Secretary on QT getting stuck into the Russians and taking the Tory Prime Minister’s side regarding this poisoning.

      Hard to watch

      Attaboy kinters, stick that yoon boot in hard. Its not a surprise your smearing the SNP with what ever it the tories are up to but have a wee peep at Channel Four News here, then a smearing you can go

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ

      Channel 4 News
      Published on 19 Mar 2018

    100. mike cassidy says:

      Dr Jim

      This is an interesting read on the poisoning.

      And as a double bonus

      the headline is a geographical lie

      and the comment below the article is ‘abrupt’.

      http://archive.is/q6iCH

    101. Hamish100 says:

      QT– I agree McDonald TOOK THE WRONG TACT on the programme. I am surprised this was allowed to happen

      As stated by others on here where is the training for being on news media? where is the policy?

      Gung ho suits the tories not the snp. Bad show. Not in my name.

    102. mike cassidy says:

      Re Question Time

      Did the SNP guy couple his comments with remarks about Tory Party’s Russian donations?

      Cos that’s the only reason I can come up with for the SNP approach.

      Yes these Russians are terrible – and you hypocritical b……s take money from them.

      If he didn’t, that’s very worrying.

    103. Hamish100 says:

      QT – when I say my country I mean Scotland. So when a snp MP means the uk he needs to ask why he is in the snp. The suspicion I have had is too many new intake members after 2007 jumped on their career bandwagon. We need to be radical and yet true to the cause of independence.

      just my view as one who attended my first snp branch meeting in the ’70’s along with 3 others!

    104. Old Pete says:

      As an SNP member my country is Scotland, a Scotland shackled to the United Kingdom. I feel embarrassed and let down when SNP representatives intimate that the UK is their “country”
      Surely Scotland and hopefully soon an Independent Scotland should be their “country”

    105. heedtracker says:

      just my view as one who attended my first snp branch meeting in the ’70’s along with 3 others!

      They’re human beings not deities, right? Although it must take a lot of guts to be an SNP MP in this farce union.

    106. Hamish100 says:

      never asked for anyone to be god like. Mcdonald had an open goal but mis- hit. Does he not know he is to represent Scotland?

      For the Russian issue better to wait and see what facts may come to the surface before gung ho. That was his decision and nothing to do with the farce union.

    107. Davie Oga says:

      12:33
      Although it must take a lot of guts to be an SNP MP in this farce union.

      Oh Aye. The courageous decision of whether to have the subsidized moet or dom perignon? Which bank to stick the 76k? It’s like having 35 Mandela’s.

    108. Davie Oga says:

      Is Blair Jenkins in charge of a secret media training initiative?

    109. geeo says:

      Oh look…old stinky pete is back…!

      Yet another pretendy SNP member..*(sigh)*

      Fooling nobody.

      And Yes, Mike Cassidy, he did indeed make comment on tories taking russian money as donations, (really rattled tory twat James Cleverly) as well as russian black money being rinsed through the London financial sector.

      The trolls forgot to mention that though.

      He performed very well imo.

    110. Chick McGregor says:

      There is only one possible solution for housing those millions of the population deemed offensive to the democratically empowered regional majority, Gulags. PFI funded, of course.

    111. Liz g says:

      Capella….
      Sorry I didn’t reply yesterday because ….reasons.
      Anyhoo..
      I suppose I was tryin to say that anyone who didn’t know that Facebook & other companies wouldn’t just stick to advertising.. Should have.
      They are not,at a basic level, doing anything that every campaign hasn’t done before!

      Yes if they have acted outside of the law then they should be brought to account,but ye have tae wonder why is it not the electoral commission that’s in line for more power’s, they should,I would have thought, been “all up in this”?

      Something’s up to be sure…probably as I said to stymie any more referendums and to get control of social media!

      This company CA,and others (they cant be the only one) it could be argued are no very good at what they do.
      Clinton didn’t win.
      Remain didn’t win.
      Theresa May didn’t win (a majority)
      all these were ment to be the sure thing…

      And if (which was your original concern) they were involved in indyref 1!
      Cameron didn’t get his 70% plus either,which we are led to believe was a sure thing too.

      The reason for this,I think, is while those companies could access Facebook….. So could the voter’s.
      They might have collected information on the electorate, but they,in a sense, have to believe it,and can only work from that…..We don’t.
      I think it would be fair to say that everyone looks at stuff that they could never afford,would never attempt and could never agree with!
      Nobody really tell’s the truth on Facebook… and MOST importantly…. We are not obliged to!
      We don’t Have to join it and if we choose to,we can find and use a whole load of opt outs.

      The real danger to our online privacy doesn’t come from social media.
      Social media is dangerous to Westminster and the Media.
      That’s the real problem…. But not for us.

      Think for a minute about all the information you HAVE to give the Government or you will be punished some how.
      You canny lie or even give a fake name.
      Facebook doesn’t do that..
      Facebook doesn’t demand your toilet habit’s…
      That’s ATOS.
      We don’t get to opt out of computer file’s at our GP and keep a paper one!
      All of that is put on the net somewhere!!
      Every part of life seems to be logged,to some server somewhere.

      Facebook is the least of our worries as voters, data collected from them, is unreliable any way and I would argue that most of our friends on Facebook are a bigger influence and, that most of them that are are actually known to us and would somehow be an influence anyway.

      The fact that it’s “out” now that,campaigns will target Facebook and Twitter,just like they did the phone back in the day can only help.
      For all their money they couldn’t overcome the grassroots, or Cameron would have had his 70%+….so don’t worry so much!
      We just need to stay on Facebook and do our stuff..

      Oh and just to be clear…I fecken hate Facebook

    112. Chick McGregor says:

      Andrew Neil, snidely inferring that Putin’s 77% was virtually a vote of no confidence given past Soviet presidents getting 99% while completely failing to mention the reality that Putin’s first victory was only 52-53% and he has steadily increased his majority ever since.

      Also making with the Novichok = only Russia meme when America has disposed of almost 8000 rockets with Novichock war heads by loading them on to a ship and scuttling it in the Atlantic East of Atlantic City. What happens when they corrode through? you might ask.

    113. Old Pete says:

      Well stupid fruit cake geeo, one must bow to your vast knowledge and intellect.
      With ‘dicks’ like you geeo pushing “the cause” maybe that is one reason we fell short in gaining Independence in 2014.

      SNP representatives need to be careful in what they say and do as the MSM is waiting for any opportunity to destroy them, the SNP and our chance of Independence.

    114. Artyhetty says:

      So all in all, akin to a witch hunt. Anyone could say their neighbour was a witch in those dark times, and so they were persecuted, tortured and most often murdered.

      It looks like laws no longer mean anything, if anyone including the police can act as accuser, when no evidence is required to arrest someone. Scary days.

      Human’s have lost the plot, if they ever had it in the first place. Stupidity abides and the rational has flown out the window. We need a second enlightenment, or some investigation into what’s being put into the food, or something.

      Maybe people need more vitamins, or a commonsense jag. I always wondered why no one developed a medicine or something that could induce sharing,caring, tolerance, and commonsense, those positive, human traits, the ones we should expect in the 21st freaking century”!

      But no, humans are turning on each other, ultimately it will result in self destruct, because if people cannot cooperate with each other, for the good of all, we are all truly fckd!

      Goodnight, hope tomorrow goes well. Hope to be there.

    115. Chick McGregor says:

      @Hamish100

      The seeming haste and enthusiasm with which some SNP politicians, if you believe the poisonous SMSM, have jumped on the Neo-McCarthyism bandwagon is causing alarm amongst party members in this neck of the woods.

    116. Artyhetty says:

      Re; Liz g@1.18am

      I think you are right, facebook only has so much reach and influence, most people over the age of 16 avoid it. It’s a scapegoat right now.
      Twitter is imo a fantastic information sharing platform, good and bad. It’s controlled and targeted in many ways, but again, like facebook, you can bypass the rubbish.

    117. Liz g says:

      Artyhetty @ 1.39
      Yes Twitter is a great platform to share information on.
      Although other than reading it,beyond my capabilities so far.
      I hope the Rev doesn’t decide to leave it but could understand if he did.
      His article above is truly scary!

      I think we (the public) need to mibbi take a look at if we are going to put up with this.
      It’s our space and how long would it take before we are having to tell our kid’s they need to watch what they say.
      Right now it’s adults that are being caught out, but kid’s tweet too!
      And being kid’s,they can be nasty to and about each other.

      I don’t know what the answer is to this.
      But there must be some sort of counter measure to prevent anyone being targeted in this way.
      At the moment all I can think of is the OBAF act and one of the times that it couldn’t really be enforced was when too many people did it at the one time…there might be something in that?

      Of course bringing our Government within slapping distance would sort it P.D.Q….
      Might even balance out the English electorate a bit better as well?

    118. yesindyref2 says:

      Scotland is our country, and so is the UK until we become independent, when the rUK will become a neighbouring country.

      Many in Scotland think of the UK or Britain as a country, and it’s them we have to reach out to, if we want a majority YES vote.

      country: a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory.

      Hence both Scotland, and the UK are countries, same as Wales and Northern Ireland.

    119. Dr Jim says:

      It’s the apathy I can’t be bothered with

    120. Breeks says:

      It makes me profoundly sad that tomorrow’s history books will be obliged to contain references to Boris Johnson, when a more appropriate tribute to the dangerous, warmongering, fat headed, blabbermouth arch-narcissist would be for history to quietly erase all mention of him. Perhaps the present should take note…

      But before all that, perhaps I need to remind myself what Winston Smith did for a living…

    121. Ken500 says:

      People can make a complain against the Police. Just write a letter. Or get a lawyer to if it can be afforded. It is worth it. Regrets or an apology might be forth coming.

      Can no one make a complaint about Spanners? What’s good for the goose etc. Police Scotland is wandering about like a gormless turkey. Making poor decisions. No head because of the belated unionist corruption. There soon? will be a new Chief who maybe knows the Law and complies with it. A start has been made. Getting rid of the old dross. Hopefully take the Force in a more democratic direction. Free of unionist corruption and influence. The Masonics Fifty years of Labour. Or more Heads will roll.

      The SNP (Spring) Conference is coming up? There will be much discussion. Some people will get telt in no other terms. On reserved issues SNP has little sway or say. Some people voted NO and were conned again. Get over it. There are other ways around. What has to be said in public might not be said in private. The best the (SNP) Gov can do is to help deprive Tories of Russian money. Hypocrites and crooks. Tories in total denial SCL was controlled by Tories acting illegally but the mud will stick. Never trust a Tory – unionist.

      Putin stuck up for Scotland against Cameron. One of the only one’s. Putin has really taken Russia forward. From a chequer pass. Russia is still trying to improve quite a massive task. Putin rewarded with majorities that politicians in the West can only dream. An extremely popular leader. Russia supplies EU gas. A lot of gas will be sorted out. Malicious insults. Russia saved the West in 11WW. Saved Britain and took the flak. Now May is trying to cosy up to Merkel but wants to leave the EU. Destroy the economy. Not very credible.

      Putin sorts out the corrupt oligarchs. That is why they are all in London trying to buy favour. The Tories are in their pocket being bribed with vast sums to rip off their own country with stolen funds, Most of them are greedy crooks. Including the British spies betraying their own county and causing death and destruction around the world for money. Despicable.

      Johnston and M15 planted the chemicals. Johnston is a corrupt, crooked greedy liar bring grubed by crooked Russians in exile. Stealing public money. That will rebound on May. She will be voted down in the Commons. The backlash wil take affect. Labour -Unionist could have taken her down on 12th Sept 2017. 8? of them voted with the Tories

      The QT audience was once again fixed with Brexiteers. All the audience were under 30 but were not representative as usual. 73% of younger voters voted to Remain that was not reflected in the audience. QT production team at it again. Fixed, biased non representative audience. Brexit plants.
      Just another fix up.

      A guy has been refused Cancer treatment and is in a hostel because he can’t access benefits because of Brexit. May refusing to do anything,

      Will some big shot, human rights lawyer not stand up to defend Mark Meechan in an appeal.against the small minded Sheriff. Masonic? An appeal would raise funds. They must be rolling in alresdy . A gofund would be successful.

      The Felbers still need funds as well to fight Home Office tyranny. £ would do.

      Go to it.

    122. Ken500 says:

      It wasn’t so long ago that the Tories were anti German. Now they are anti Russian. There is more crooked money in it. Turncoats. Sold to the nearest bidder. They would take crooked money from anyone. Greedy, troughing sucking pigs. Enough is never enough for some people. They can go to hell. Or thirty years in the wilderness. Never to recover.

      Anything that bothers people. Just write a letter or an e-mail. to the perpetrators. Can be quite cathartic. Better than fuming in silence.

    123. Bill says:

      Couldnt agree more ablut the closing line, next indyref will be beligerent and bloody dangerous.

      I had a similiar experience on Twitter, during a discusion with fellow Yes voters we were taking the piss about the Media calling us terrorists: I joke I had recipes for home-made semtex. A full 6 months later Police came on the evening of the 2015 Elections. A certain Englishman living in Kinross who was a know Troll with many many accounts used the screenshot and timed the complaint for the day of the election. He knew Id be at a polling station volunteering for SNP, he hoped for a “high profile” arrest at a Polling station of an SNP member.

      The Police were thick as mince that came into my house and explained they were inverstigating the possibility I was making bombs!

      I asked them, did you just rock up my door, get invited into my house and now sit on my sofa holding the belief that I could have a bomb? They both looked at each other and said, no. “We are duty bound to investigate complaints”.

      I was astounded to say the least. I explained who made the complaints and it was “for political point scoring from Loyalists. They just wasted your time and used you.”

      God help us if you lot vote No again. Please dont do that.

    124. ronnie anderson says:

      589. CRAIG MURRAY’S BLOGS ARE UNDER ATTACK AND KEEP DISAPPEARING – HOPE THAT THIS ONE GETS THROUGH. READ FULL POST BELOW…
      > Boris Johnson A Categorical Liar, 22 Mar, 2018 <
      Evidence submitted by the British government in court today proves, beyond any doubt, that Boris Johnson has been point blank lying about the degree of certainty Porton Down scientists have about the Skripals being poisoned with a Russian “novichok” agent.

      Yesterday in an interview with Deutsche Welt Boris Johnson claimed directly Porton Down had told him they positively identified the nerve agent as Russian:

      You argue that the source of this nerve agent, Novichok, is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of it?

      Let me be clear with you … When I look at the evidence, I mean the people from Porton Down, the laboratory …

      So they have the samples …

      They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, “Are you sure?” And he said there’s no doubt.

      I knew and had published from my own whistleblowers that this is a lie. Until now I could not prove it. But today I can absolutely prove it, due to the judgement at the High Court case which gave permission for new blood samples to be taken from the Skripals for use by the OPCW. Justice Williams included in his judgement a summary of the evidence which tells us, directly for the first time, what Porton Down have actually said:

      The Evidence
      16. The evidence in support of the application is contained within the applications
      themselves (in particular the Forms COP 3) and the witness statements.
      17. I consider the following to be the relevant parts of the evidence. I shall identify the
      witnesses only by their role and shall summarise the essential elements of their
      evidence.
      i) CC: Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst
      Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the
      findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples
      tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent OR CLOSELY RELATED AGENT.

      The emphasis is mine. This sworn Court evidence direct from Porton Down is utterly incompatible with what Boris Johnson has been saying. The truth is that Porton Down have not even positively identified this as a “Novichok”, as opposed to “a closely related agent”. Even if it were a “Novichok” that would not prove manufacture in Russia, and a “closely related agent” could be manufactured by literally scores of state and non-state actors.

      This constitutes irrefutable evidence that the government have been straight out lying – to Parliament, to the EU, to NATO, to the United Nations, and above all to the people – about their degree of certainty of the origin of the attack. It might well be an attack originating in Russia, but there are indeed other possibilities and investigation is needed. As the government has sought to whip up jingoistic hysteria in advance of forthcoming local elections, the scale of the lie has daily increased.

      On a sombre note, I am very much afraid the High Court evidence seems to indicate there is very little chance the Skripals will ever recover; one of the reasons the judge gave for his decision is that samples taken now will be better for analysis than samples taken post mortem.
      ——————————————————-
      This website remains under a massive DOS attack which has persisted for more than 24 hours now, but so far the defences are holding. Some strange form of “ghost banning” is also affecting both my twitter and Facebook feeds. So please:
      a) Feel free to repost, republish, translate or spread this article anywhere and anyway you can. All copyright is waived.
      b) If you came here by Twitter, please retweet but also in addition create a new tweet yourself containing a link to this post (or to any other site on which you have placed the information)
      c) If you came here by Facebook, again please share but also in addition create a new post yourself which contains the information and the link.

      The state and corporate media now have evidence of the vast discrepancy between what May and Johnson are saying, and the truth about the Porton Down scientists’ position. I am afraid to say I expect this to make no difference whatsoever to the propaganda output of the BBC.

      This begs the question why should the High Court order a Blood , that would be the 1st thing Porton Down would do .

    125. Robert Louis says:

      Dr Jim at 0311am.

      Well said. Comment of the month. 🙂

      Talking of apathy, remember today is the day for the hands off our parliament demo at Holyrood. This is not an indy demo, but one to protect the parliament from London interference, and the Tory power grab (they can’t get elected to government in Scotland, so just steal the powers from us back to London instead).

      So, get down to holyrood, if you can. Don’t assume ‘others’ will do it for you.

      https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2018/03/22/hoop-hands-off-our-parliament/

      https://twitter.com/ScotNational/status/976933285522739201

    126. Nana says:

      Information commissioner will have to wait until at least Friday to enter the offices of Cambridge Analytica

      [in order to give them time to shred and destroy evidence]
      http://archive.is/MycF6

      Britain’s political parties are poised to grant themselves special powers to use personal data to find out how people are likely to vote, despite the Cambridge Analytica scandal, The Independentcan reveal.
      http://archive.is/tt1Up

      https://www.politico.eu/article/spain-holds-back-brexit-transition-deal-over-gibraltar-bilateral-agreement/

      This is what the EU immigration app will look like
      http://archive.is/y7oe0

    127. Nana says:

      https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/us-business/trump-to-pause-looming-metal-tariffs-for-some-countries/article38321067/

      Read about Trumps new best pal here
      https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/976979226158133248

      Bernie Sanders?Verified account @SenSanders 7h7 hours ago
      More
      John Bolton was part of the effort to mislead the US into the disastrous Iraq war and has supported military action against North Korea and Iran. He was too extreme to be confirmed as UN ambassador in 2005 and is absolutely the wrong person to be national security advisor now.

      https://www.publicintegrity.org/2018/03/20/21623/john-bolton-eyed-trump-post-leads-super-pac-employed-cambridge-analytica

    128. Ken500 says:

      It is just wasting Police time but the Police are involved in it. Letting themselves be used. Allowing racists and bigot thugs roam the streets. Give gross offences but putting people in cells over night on fake ‘charges’ that can never come to Court. Of malicious complaint. It is costing a fortune and a waste of public money. Then they are always complaining about having no money or adequate budget. Absolutely no common sense or natural justice.

      Goodness knows what will happen if the Tories get the UK out of the EU. A free for all of humans rights. It is bad enough now. The corruption and bias. Downright lies.

    129. Ken500 says:

      Just on time. Here’s Nanna

      Thanks a Billion. You are a gem.

    130. Bell™ says:

      If we fight each other the Police State wins.

    131. Liz g says:

      Further to my post – RE Facebook last night…

      We as a movement tend to ridicule, avoid and not make use of any medium that we think is “infected” by the Westminster establishment.

      While they might indeed,and almost certainly are,using Facebook!
      It doesn’t mean in this instance we should stop,this is one thing that they don’t have ” actual ” control of.

      We used it last time …. and used it well.

      I would take the view,in that respect, nothing has changed.
      And we should keep right on using it in Indy ref Two!
      Jist sayin ….

    132. ahundredthidiot says:

      SNP on QT

      My review of my party membership coming under more pressure. Where are all their heads at over this Russia BS.

      Bring back Alex Salmond!!

    133. ahundredthidiot says:

      …and this count dunkula thing….

      Jesus, talk about the main stay of democracy having the life squeezed out of it. Anyone who agrees with the assault on free speech worries the life out of me.

      yes, yes, terrible, vile, disgraceful…..grow up. We need to get serious about this now, if this fella goes down, all is lost. ALL.

    134. Jeanne Tomlin says:

      Perhaps some of you who are so convinced the man did nothing wrong can explain to me how putting out a video in which you shout over and over again, ‘Gas the Jews’ is a joke.

    135. Breeks says:

      I cannot physically get to Holyrood today, but while the body fails when it’s the body that counts the most, the spirit and soul is there supporting the HOOP demo.

    136. Capella says:

      @ Liz g – thx for comments. But now I have to go out so will reply later! I don’t use Facebook so am at a loss about how voters could be persuaded to stay at home. However, there’s no doubt huge numbers of SNP voters didn’t vote last year. Voter disincentive is an SCL speciality.

    137. frogesque says:

      O/t

      Realy crap morning, pissing down. Perfect for pudicks!

      No matter, off tae Embra for HOOP rally, hope to see some of yous there.

      Frog.

    138. Macart says:

      Ta Nana. 🙂

      Mr Kelly isn’t wrong in his post and I suspect Mr Greer has missed the point altogether of Scottish politics and its relationship with Scotland’s population. With three mandates in place ANY attempt by ‘UK’ gov to either deny or negate a Scotref can only be seen in one possible light.

      You have to be serious about holding a referendum without an S30. The S30 itself is the only way HMG can exercise any control or presence within a campaign. ‘S up to them tho (shrugs). Scotland’s population have an absolute right to self determination. It’s not a region, but a country with recognised international borders and history. The UN are pretty damn specific on matters of self determination of a population. Scotland is a partner in a union, a bilateral international treaty and as such if one partner has changed the nature of that union unilaterally… which in this case it has. Then the people have every right to revisit that last set of promises made, re-evaluate and determine for themselves their future political relationship.

      S30 isn’t a permission slip by one partner giving leave to another. The Scottish population don’t require any other country’s permission to decide how they wish to be governed. They need only mandate and empower a willing political representation of their own to carry out their wishes.

    139. Breeks says:

      Wow. The Information Commissioner is STILL waiting for a warrant to enter the Cambridge Analytica offices, while the police and fire brigade have a cordon around the area which puts the cordons around the Salisbury crime scenes to shame.

      Makes you wonder if the fire in the skip out the back perhaps got out of control.

    140. Undeadshuan says:

      Cambridge analtica fingerprints on 2014 independence referendum..

      “In 2014, MoD officials worked with SCL Group on “Project Duco” to analyse how people would interact with certain government messaging.”

      https://archive.is/zP1do

      https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/caltonjock.com/2018/03/22/cambridge-analytical-scl-chiels-wha-winna-ding-and-canna-be-disputed-remember-the-2014-referendum-a-stitch-up/amp/

    141. Ken500 says:

      The absolute corruption at the heart of the Westminster unionists know no bound. It is absolutely corrupt beyond belief. The Tory Party are total and absolute criminals. The UK is not a democracy but in the hands of absolute crooks. The Unionists Party greens are all crooks and liars. Self interested deniers. Habitual liars.

      Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. To get out of this corrupt undemocratic Union. Appalling crooks. Murdering millions of people.

    142. cearc says:

      Best wishes and thanks to everyone heading to Holyrood today.

      Or should that be G.IV Bridge?
      http://thenational.scot/news/16109725.The_Department_for_Exiting_the_EU_doesn_t_seem_to_know_where_the_Scottish_Parliament_is___/

    143. Ken500 says:

      Let no one be in any doubt. Gerrymandering in an election is punishable by Prison, That is why there is supposed to be a one person one vote, secret ballot, with Purdah. Electoral Laws on funding for equality. Being broken by Westminster unionists with impunity. They make the Laws and break the Laws. Do enforce the Law. The UK is not a Democracy. The Unionists Parties have broken Electoral Laws and betrayed democracy and lied about it. Corruption and criminality is rife.

    144. Les Wilson says:

      If I put a sign at my door “No Tories -EVER!” along with another, “That goes for Labour too!”
      Am I offending their rights to annoy me?

    145. Robert Peffers says:

      @Old Pete says: 23 March, 2018 at 1:28 am:

      “Well stupid fruit cake geeo, one must bow to your vast knowledge and intellect.
      With ‘dicks’ like you geeo pushing “the cause” maybe that is one reason we fell short in gaining Independence in 2014.”

      Aye! Auld Pete but there is only one logical reason for a self-proclaimed indy supporter to air any form of criticism of the SNP/SG on Facebook, Twitter and particularly on an open, and openly declared, independence website like Wings.

      That one reason is to publically put down the SNP, the SG, the independence movement or the particular victim they have chosen to vilify and thus ultimately harm the best interests of Scotland and the people of Scotland.

      If real indy supporters have any criticisms to make they make them at their local branch or directly to the elected member, or to SNP paid for official, they find fault with. Make no mistake, these are all able to be communicated with and that includes the First Minister herself. They all openly publish their contact details:-

      http://www.parliament.scot/msps.aspx

      These de – tractors of the SG, SNP, indy movement know exactly what they are doing and the sheer number of them that suddenly come out of the woodwork to support their wee chums but who generally retreat back into the woodwork after their job is done proves the point.

      These people are here on Wings for no other reason than to wash dirty linen in public. If they were genuine they would not be harming the cause they claim to support.

      We all have our differences of opinions with SNP/SG individuals from time to time but we do not all air them on Facebook, Twitter or especially on an open forum like Wings for we all know that will harm the independence cause.

      So there you go, Old Pete, if you are genuine why are you washing dirty linen in public?

      Get onto that Holyrood web page, identify the person you disagree with and tell them directly what you claim they have done wrong – or get to the local branch and complain there.

      If you cannot manage to a local branch then try this:-

      https://www.snp.org/

      or specifically:-

      https://www.snp.org/your_team

      There is no genuine excuse for a genuine Indy supporter washing dirty linen in public when the SNP are the most open and democratic party in, (at least), the United Kingdom.

      If you really wanted to make a real change you won’t do so by airing your grievance’s on an open to the public forum.

    146. Gregg says:

      “The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly.” Abraham Lincoln

      I’d imagine that a few thousand ‘complaints’ that some tory MP or other had hurt the feelings of some third party would result in a very quick repeal.

    147. Ottomanboi says:

      Scottish nationalism is by its nature subversive. It is inimical/prejudicial to the existence of the British state. Many nationalists also dislike Britishness and all the trappings of what they consider an antiquated, functionally anti-Scottish institution.
      Disliking the UKGBNI, in a true democracy is legal, but it begs the question that given its purpose and aims to what extent has Scottish nationalism itself been subverted.
      The British state has much face, prestige and influence to lose by the dissolution of the Union. All establishments react when sensing threat or loss of control. We ought not to assume blithely that we have not been ‘got at’. The UK after all has a long history of misinformation, dysinformation and black propaganda. Indeed without it that Empire wouldn’t have lasted so long.

    148. manandboy says:

      HOOP demo at 12 noon at Holyrood.

      BBC weather are forecasting a sudden sharp increase in windspeed in Edinburgh from 19mph to 40mph at precisely 12 noon today, and then, exactly 2 hours later, forecasting a sudden sharp decrease from 40mph to 21mph.

      The pressure on the English Establishment must now be at warp force when they are resorting to fiddling the weather forecast to try to dissuade people from supporting a demo in favour of devolution for Scotland .

      Yes, you’re right – I don’t believe anything the BBC tell me.

    149. Robert Peffers says:

      @Old Pete says: 23 March, 2018 at 1:28 am:

      “Well stupid fruit cake geeo, one must bow to your vast knowledge and intellect.
      With ‘dicks’ like you geeo pushing “the cause” maybe that is one reason we fell short in gaining Independence in 2014.”

      By the way, Old Pete, the same applies to you as applies to Kinters. You adopt the very same Argumentum Ad Hominem style of attack as he and Rock. It is just another factor that mark your group of commenters out. If you do not know what Argumentum Ad Hominem is go look here:-

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

      Kinters was called out for beginning his/her diatribe against an SNP minister by attacking his weight and other totally irrelevant characteristics. That’s Argumentum Ad Hominem – attacking the person but not the logical argument.

      Same applies to someone attempting to criticise Ruth Davidson by calling her a fat person. Being a fat person in no way addresses the political point that is supposed to be being made. It is made much worse by being used by supposedly indy supporters.

    150. jfngw says:

      Good week for the BBC to ask a SNP MP on, it was short notice as they couldn’t tell us everyone who was going to appear on it last week.

      Not a good decision for the SNP to appear, they were always going to be put in the ‘Russia’ straitjacket. I didn’t see it (never watched a full programme for years) but from what I read if they were going to appear they needed someone with more nuance that the person that did go on.

    151. Old Pete says:

      Robert Peffers sorry but you don’t know me. You claim we should not air our dirty washing in public if we support the SNP. Are you attempting to close down debate ? Must we always agree with you and the likes of geeo who seems a disgusting bull dog of a person if their posts are anything to go by on here.

      The SNP as we have discussed at our branch need to be far more savvy when dealing with the MSM in all its forms.
      If they are trained then they need better training, not all are as gifted as our local MP Phillippa Whitford and Mr McDonald was piss poor last night. From discussions at our branch meetings, due to the vast numbers now in the SNP it needs better organization and ideas to get more members involved. You see the same folk at meetings all the time, the same folk run it, organise it and generally deal with the hierarchy.
      I am quite happy to contact the SNP directly. I know people more skilled than myself have done so on media training, but are they listening ? going by Mr McDonald’s performance they ain’t listening.

      Sorry I dared to post on this Mr Peffers but I am not alone in being disappointed in how many of our SNP representatives perform so poorly on the TV and radio. But you single me out?

      I am proud to be in the SNP and push the case for Independence when I can, don’t presume only your opinions are valid and attempting to block free speech does you no favours.

    152. ahundredthidiot says:

      The new Extremist is the far left, politically correct, 67 genders, nut job social warrior – they have just gone too far. Politicians are terrified of challenging them and passing laws nobody wants, now our institutions are starting to give in to them too.

      Freedom of speech is effectively a thing of the past – for the time being.

      It seems that people are no longer capable of holding a debate which is multi factored, instead it is boiled down to schoolyard jibber-jabber. Take the ‘equal opportunities’ debate not being able to comprehend the fact that ‘you can’t have equality of outcome’ being built into it – it appears that most people are not intellectually capable of understanding that – these people make perfect Extremists.

      The warning from history here is that the rise of the far left tends to generate a reaction in a rise of the far right. Now, I don’t think that that is quite happening yet (thank the Lord), but without a doubt, the stance, opinions and attitude of the people I am speaking with (old and young by the way) is definitely hardening. If it continues it will be bad for left leaning socially responsible parties like the SNP and that bothers me because they are the only vehicle I can trust in to deliver Independence for Scotland.

      Time for courage. Time for our so called Leaders to wake the f*”k up and do their job.

    153. Robert Peffers says:

      @Liz g says: 23 March, 2018 at 2:15 am:

      “Of course bringing our Government within slapping distance would sort it P.D.Q….”

      Ah! Liz g, As a matter of historic fact, there are historical quotes from the days when The Treaty of Union was the main item in the Old Scots Parliament agenda on Edinburgh’s Royal Mile.

      These ran along the lines of the common people claiming that with their own parliament in the Capital city they, the common people, “could stane thir parliamentarians whan thae dinna dae it richt”. It was their way of expressing the view Westminster would be a remote, out of reach, and out of touch, establishment. And so it has proven itself to be.

      Anyway, just by chance I have commented, it reply to Old Pete up-thread, that all MSPs, MPs MEPs, Councillors and even SNP employed party officials can be directly contacted and their contact details are published on-line and I cite website addresses to prove it.

      My motive was to show that criticism here on Wings, on Twitter and on Facebook by claimed indy supporters is Manna from Heaven to the Unionist cause and de(cough!),tractors here on Wings who openly criticise the party are, even if unintended, playing right into unionist hands. Furthermore, criticism on such forums is totally ineffective in bringing about change.

      Direct criticism at local branches will filter back to the person being criticised but, as their contact details are freely available, a direct criticism will, “Stane”, them immediately and will not aid the unionist cause.

    154. ahundredthidiot says:

      2 frogs swimming around the water in the pot arguing over whether it should be gas or electric under them, but at least they both agree it should be slow and insidious like.

      We cannot let the SNP be the third frog, so the critisism on this forum is fair, let’s not over emphasis how important this forum is.

      Nobody is on Wings to be ‘won over’ – that will be done when we recognise the failings from 2014 like the currency question and come up with credible answers.

      And Robert P – stop with the T word, it doesn’t help and is beneath you.

    155. Robert Peffers says:

      @yesindyref2 says: 23 March, 2018 at 2:50 am:

      “Scotland is our country, and so is the UK until we become independent, when the rUK will become a neighbouring country.”

      Nope! Totally wrong, yesindyref2.

      The United Kingdom is, by its own definition, a kingdom, and a kingdom is a Monarchy not necessarily a country, part of a country or more than one country. You define a country and then apply the definition of a country to a kingdom.

      Historically all four countries in the United Kingdom contained numerous small kingdoms. These, though, were all then under the rule of law of, “Divine Right of Kings”. Under which laws a monarch who defeated another in war automatically tagged the defeated monarch’s kingdom to their existing kingdom, As did marrying another kingdom’s queen, or inheriting another kingdom by accident of birth. Thus kingdoms became larger but also became fewer. Countries did not.

      Clearly kingdoms and countries are different things. However, in 1320, Scotland broke the cycle by, the then international authority, The Holy Roman Se, accepting the Declaration of Arbroath. (note the law wasDivine Right: a.k.a God Given Right: a.k.a. sovereignty).

      By 1603 this law became critical in the British Isles as the King of Scots, (not now legally sovereign), inherited the crown of England, (Kingdom not country), but that Kingdom of England had by then, still under Divine Right of Kings, annexed Wales in 1284 and Ireland in 1542, so legally, under Divine Right, The English Kingdom contained three countries. So as the King of Scots was not sovereign he could not just tag, the English Kingdom onto the existing Scottish Kingdom – there was no union of the crowns except personally for James VI.

      Then, in 1688 the Kingdom of England parliament rebelled and deposed their rightful monarchy and replace them with others but the only two extant kingdoms were still both independent.

      However, that English parliament revolt altered the status of the English Monarchy but could not legally affect the monarchy of the independent Kingdom of Scotland. In any case the English changes were relatively small for their monarchy remained legally sovereign and still does so today. The only difference in the English kingdom was that while remaining legally sovereign the English monarchy must legally delegate their Divine Right, (sovereignty), to the Parliament of the Kingdom of England but the Treaty of Union states that Scots and English law must remain independent.

      So, sorry and all that but the United Kingdom has never been a country.

      Furthermore when the only two kingdoms that form the United Kingdom split there cannot remain a n rUnited Kingdom.

      The Status Quo Ante is a return to two independent kingdoms not to an rUK and a Kingdom of Scotland. In other words England is a country – the Kingdom of England contains three countries and the United Kingdom has never been a country.

      Have you any evidence to offer that anything in the above explanation is wrong?

    156. Lenny Hartley says:

      Jonathen Pie has a rant about this just now, well worth watching, unfortunately my ipad will not copy the URL but you can find it on facebook or his website

    157. Iain mhor says:

      Perusing Nana’s links today, the story of Political Parties voting to grant themselves new powers under the Data Protection Bill interested me. Ostensibly it’s to collect and retain voting preferences (actual votes) amongst other things.
      Here is the quote from someone against this proposition:
      Paul Bernal, a data protection expert at the University of East Anglia Law School, said: “There’s a reason that we have secret ballots in elections and that we don’t keep a record of how people voted.”

      I have mentioned this before – When I vote, the registration list has reference numbers beside my name and address . This corresponded with a reference number on my ballot slip (basically it’s a raffle book) With both my ballot slip and the registration list, anyone can tie my vote to me directly and they have done on several occasions. It is therefore not a secret ballot and never has been. I’ve been saying this for decades and wasting my breath.

      “Secret” would involve having unidentifiable ballot papers counted against number of voters – 90/100 registered on the list were ticked as voting, 90 ballots were cast – Answers on a postcard if you can work out any inherent flaws there and yet we are to infer this is how it actually operates.
      I daresay it was a tedious process by hand, but when they are scanned via a barcode or QR type code on the ballot paper, then it is simple to collate. The registration list and corresponding reference numbers are already in a database.
      I assume no-one has ever seen barcodes, QR codes or other identifiers on their ballot papers before, because I’m repeatedly told “It’s a secret ballot!”

      My point is: it’s not a secret ballot but neither should it be. Only if the voting system is open to interrogation by the voters can it be policed. It’s a secret only to the public, therefore can be gamed, manipulated and abused.
      If we are all to have access to a voting database, the question is how to protect actual privacy. The difficulty is how information is redacted so you cannot identify others, but verify your own vote.
      Blockchain or other Distributed Ledger process is a technique which should be embraced sooner rather than later. Failing that, one can only ask for their ballot paper and copy of registration list to be physically returned.

      I asked for that once. It did not turn out well…

    158. Mike McMonagle says:

      Reminds me of the apocryphal tale of Bertie Auld asking the referee “Can I be sent off for calling you a cunt?” to which the referee “yes, you would be red carded”.

      So Bertie asked “Can I be sent off for THINKING you’re a cunt?” The referee says “No you can think what you want”.

      Bertie then stated “In that case I think you’re a cunt”

    159. Old Pete says:

      As regards historical kingdoms and countries as I have read, Mr Peffers I concur with your argument. If or when Scotland finally regains its Independence from the UK the remaining kingdom is England.
      I am not sure the Welsh or all the Northern Irish residents will take well to being considered English provinces ?

    160. Proud Cybernat says:

      BREAKING from Pravda Quay
      with Union Jackie Kim Ono:

      https://i.imgur.com/SHazF2J.jpg

    161. Clootie says:

      @Robert Peffers

      Robert
      I do not disagree with a word of your interpretation. However Westminster simply ignores these facts and has redefined the “Country”. Where do you fight this assertion…in the state run legal system ending at the state Supreme Court?

      It doesn’t matter that you are right. It comes down to where you fight, how you finance the fight and who arbitrates the contest.

      I thank you once again for the historical background but unfortunately I don’t see how it will help our cause. For example a great deal of land would not be in the hands of the few if long established rights and been upheld instead of the arguments of a few well paid lawyers a few hundred years ago.

      Yes you are correct but how will it help us? We will only win if the majority of Scots vote YES now and the past injustices will have no bearing on that outcome.

    162. Dr Jim says:

      Unity wins, it doesn’t matter whether you’re right or wrong ,what matters is one purpose one objective for one end result

      The English government of any colour understands that and it’s why they always win
      The English government don’t care about who’s in charge, they could be the most pathetic waste of space going (Theresa May)
      What the English government do is they find a way to unite themselves behind whoever it is, they’ll change the narrative to suit, they’ll rearrange the lies they tell to fit the objective as long as they win

      Winning an election or a referendum isn’t about democracy and it never has been it’s soley about winning, so creating the impression of believing whatever lie you’ve cooked up to do that is the most important thing

      The trouble with Scotland is it has never understood this principle correctly so Scotland engages in what it always does, arguing over whose democracy is better than somebody elses which gives the English government and its allies every piece of ammunition they need to destroy any democracy Scotland might be trying to achieve by sowing the seeds of the doubters arguments right back and then multiplying them, just in exactly the same way as the tech companies are doing now with peoples facebook accounts and the internet

      If you’re in a battle you don’t think about how you can win it within a set of guidelines as laid down by a decision making process of a committee, you kill the other guy as quickly and effectively as you can then talk about how you did it later in order so you can do it even quicker the next time

      Rules are for fools, you make the rules after you’ve won not before, then you say you’ll follow those rules but only up and until you’re challenged again, then you refer to rule one

      The media in Scotland though they may tell you differently read every word of WOS then they read every word of the comments below to find discord then they set about throwing that discord no matter how small right back at us but again amplifying the extent of its meaning so as to fit their agenda

      The First Minister may say Independence is a conversation but she’s a politician she can’t actually say what it really is or the media would set about her with all the nasty headlines they can muster

      The topic of Independence is not a conversation it’s a tactical war of words and attitudes, Scotland must produce the same united attitude and purpose to win

      Airing differing opinions from each other in an angry fashion serves the English governments case not Scotlands

      If you want a nail hammered in you get a big hammer and batter it, you don’t have a meeting to discuss who uses the hammer or whose hammer you use or if many little hammers would be better, you just hit it a batter

      Job done, Scotland wins

    163. Calum McKay says:

      I think it a case of the establishment wanting their cake and to eat it. Leveson did not sort out the press, i.e. they still lie, misinform and are not held to account, except by Wings and the like. The tapping of peoples’ phones is and was against the law, what was the inquiry supposed to tell us?

      Look at what the papers, bbc and stv have become, a mouth piece for the establishment and titillation for the brain dead. Those at the top still have little to fear from the press and media, they control it, occasionally a sacrifice will be made, this is their “we are in it together” concession.

      The other half of this discussion relates to lawful statement X has made to Y being used by Z to make a complaint against X to the police.

      In your case Stuart, the law (poorly drafted) has wrongly been used to contrive and sex up evidence to enable an arrest. Options being the police were not sure what they were doing or the complainer had a lawyer make a very good case on paper.

      I could think of an example when this law could be appropriate, e.g. mentioning a certain word in an airport.

      Providing the establishment with control over the law / tool that protects them, whilst at the same time, this same law / tool limits the voice of those who disagree with them, win – it’s win for the establishment.

      Mark McDonald’s performance last night on QT was below par, you can tentatively support the uk government whilst awaiting proof, but you cannot be seen to support the clown Johnson – also Mark’s mentioning of “our country”?

      We need to put up some one of the calibre of Keith Brown, knows his brief, combative, direct and talks common sense that people understand!

    164. Luigi says:

      “Rules are for fools, you make the rules after you’ve won not before, then you say you’ll follow those rules but only up and until you’re challenged again, then you refer to rule one”

      Rebellion begins when people stop obeying the “rules”.

      We are approaching that point, me thinks. 🙂

    165. Dr Jim says:

      @Luigi
      Ask yourself
      When have the English government ever in history obeyed the same rules they set out for others

      They change them to suit their own agenda at any given moment

    166. jfngw says:

      The police love these sorts of laws, it’s easy policing, they don’t have to put themselves in danger chasing real criminals, don’t even have to leave the office, just sit down and troll through social media.

      Anyone who doesn’t believe the police will abuse their powers just needs to have a quick look at the Sheffield protest. Apparently a plastic trumpet is now illegal.

    167. jfngw says:

      No sign of the HOOP demo being covered by BBC as yet, probably too far for them to travel, the BBC Edinburgh site must be over 100 metres away.

      But don’t worry a they are covering a walrus story, resources are scarce you know.

    168. Kat says:

      Using the UNHRC protected characteristics list they have introduced protection via Hate Crime. Ostensibly to protect the vulnerable in society; the disabled, the elderly etc. All very noble and right. However, as you have clearly shown is your article easily abused by those who object to your views or opinions (or you). It can easily be turned into a tool to stiffle free speech, even between friends and associates on social media due to its public not private nature.

      What we must be vigilant of going forward is that it does not change from protected characteristic to protected persons. For example the current Humza Yousaf incident with the Labour Councillor and all the MP’s at Westminster highlighting the unsocial behaviour on social media. How long before they are amending the current Hate Crime laws to include certain people or groups of people such as elected persons or the police.

    169. Habib Steele says:

      It’s one thing for someone to teach their dog to salute when they say, “Gas the Jews”. It certainly betrays a hateful attitude towards Jews. It’s another thing to put a video of it on social media. To do the latter is more than giving offence to Jews or others who are offended by it. It spreads hatred towards Jews, and creates a social condition in which violence against and killing Jews is acceptable. It’s similar to crowds at a football match singing, “We’re up to our knees in Fenion blood”! Consider the resulting violence!

      There are serious problems with the definitions of hate crimes and hate incidents that you, Stuart, cite. The subjectivity of the offended makes almost any statement or joke a possible crime. But there are other situations, such as events that happened in the past, the denial of which has become, in some countries, a hate crime. The Holocaust is an example.

      I have no doubt that the Holocaust took place. Should the denial that it took place, however, be a crime? Should a denier be prosecuted? The Holocaust is a matter of History. It’s denial causes great offence, not only to Jews, but to others who have studied the history. (I served as Minister of a congregation of Dutch immigrants to Canada, and their children and grandchildren. Our senior members had fought in the Dutch resistance during WW II; some had been imprisoned in concentration camps. One man’s parents had hidden Jews, another lady had hidden shot-down British airmen; I knew too may people who had lived in the Europe of the Holocaust to not be offended by its denial). Should, however, the giving of that offence be a crime, or should the denial in itself be a crime, whether or not it gives offence?

      Is the utterance of threats of violence, or the promotion of violence to anyone a more effective way of protecting minorities and individuals while protecting freedom of speech and thought than something as subjective as the police definitions of hate?

      Compare the Highland clearances. Should denial that they happened be a crime? Surely the proper response is to produce the historical evidence that the events took place! The spreading of the idea that any group of people should be physically attacked, or killed, should be a crime, but should criticising and arguing against people’s beliefs and practises?

    170. Robert Peffers says:

      @Old Pete says: 23 March, 2018 at 11:56 am:

      “I am not sure the Welsh or all the Northern Irish residents will take well to being considered English provinces?

      Whoa! There!

      Wales is indeed legally an English Principality. The King of England issued a decree called the Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 after the execution of the last native born Prince of Wales, “Dafydd ap Gruffydd”, in 1283. This made Wales subject to the laws of England. He promised that the next Price of Wales would be born in Wales. Then he sent his pregnant queen to Cardiff Castle to give birth to the next Prince of Wales and until today the Prince of Wales is the first born son of the English Monarch.

      The King of England was appointed as, “Lord of Ireland”, by the Holy Roman Se, (the then international authority). Their reason for this was that Rome did not like the direction the then Irish Christian Church was going. Later the King of England forced the Parliament of Ireland to pass the Crown of Ireland Act that placed the crown of Ireland upon the King of England’s head. So all Ireland became part of the Kingdom of England until the partition of Ireland. Northern Ireland is an English Province.

      Anyhow, that was not what I quoted. I said that Westminster is now the, (unelected), parliament of England but calls itself the Parliament of the United Kingdom. Yet there is no elected parliament of the country of England as Westminster directly governs England with no one elected as England MPs.

      So Westminster is the de facto parliament of the country of England. That being so means that when Westminster divided up what is legally a two kingdom partnership called The United Kingdom as four countries instead of two kingdoms it broke the Treaty of Union. And thus what small powers they devolved from that de facto parliament of the country of England was English powers and that means Westminster is treating Scotland like their two annexed countries of Wales and N.Ireland.

      The term I used to describe the three countries was not Province but, “Dominion”, and that term is defined as:-

      dominion – noun: dominion; plural noun: dominions:

      1. sovereignty or control..

      Example – “man’s attempt to establish dominion over nature”

      synonyms: supremacy, ascendancy, dominance, domination, superiority, predominance, pre-eminence, primacy, hegemony, authority, mastery, control, command, direction, power, sway, rule, government, jurisdiction, sovereignty, suzerainty, lordship, overlordship.

      2. – the territory of a sovereign or government.

      Example – “the Angevin dominions”.

      synonyms: dependency, colony, protectorate, territory, province, outpost, satellite, satellite state.

      Sadly that is all only too true and Westminster is operating as the Parliament of the country of England and Westminster sees itself as the sovereign authority as the Parliament of the master country of England with the three subservient dominions of the countries of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as their dominions.

      They even claim that the Treaty of Union, “Extinguished”, the Kingdom of Scotland and renamed the Kingdom of England as the United Kingdom.

      I’d be ever so grateful if you, or anyone else, could tell me where I could find a copy of the documentation where this became legally a fact.

      I do know where there is a copy of the document that wound up the last parliament of the country of England on the last day of April 1707 and the document that began the Parliament of the United Kingdom on 1 May 1707 but no documents of any parliament of the country of England being elected from that day onwards.

    171. Jack Murphy says:

      Poster Nana gave excellent links at 7:19am approximately,including a filmed interview with Peter A. Bell on YouTube.
      Thankyou.

      Here is part 2 of the interview:
      YouTube:
      https://tinyurl.com/y75j95es

    172. Athanasius says:

      If you make the process itself the punishment, you can end run around the law, due process and the testing of evidence. That’s the logic behind so-called “hate crimes”, and within its own perverted world view it’s good logic. When your cause is so noble that any disgrace performed in its service is excusable, you’re not going to be put off by ideas of innocent until proven guilty.

    173. yesindyref2 says:

      @Robert Peffers
      As I said, the definition of country (from the Oxford dictionary) is:

      Definition of country – a nation with its own government, occupying a particular territory, districts and small settlements outside large urban areas or towns.

      Both Scotland and the UK have our own government and occupy a particular territory.

      Yours is a historical definition, the dictionary is a current and emotional definition, there would be a 3rd legal definition and even a 4th RealPolitik one.

      The important thing is what the people we need to convert to a YES think, if we have a tortuous argument with them about which definition is the correct one, we’ve lost their interest. That’s not to say the historical one isn’t important, it is, as with the right argument it can help to persuade the NOes to a YES.

    174. Nana says:

      Latest news re EU Brexit future relationship talks

      European Council agreed guidelines on Brexit future relationship are here:
      http://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/33458/23-euco-art50-guidelines.pdf

      https://twitter.com/KirstyS_Hughes/status/977181825008394240

    175. manandboy says:

      Ah telt ye, ye cannae believe a word the BBC say. The forecast was for 40mph winds – but they were 50mph winds!

    176. Weechid says:

      I notice it didn’t mention hair colour – Can I still take the piss out of my ginger friends? Can I still make blonde jokes? If someone calls me a “greetin faced auld grey heided wumman” can I report? Always amazes me that when you call someone a “(whatever) bastard” it’s not the bastard bit but the factual bit that offends. Thank fuck I’m on the wrong side of fifty.

    177. Referendum1707 says:

      Re this thought crime stuff, surely if any tom dick or sally can be offended or “threatened” by some other tom dick or sally’s thoughts which they happen to have put on twitter or whatever, then if everyone starts contacting the police every time something that “could” be construed as “threatening” or offensive appears the whole thing would quickly become a huge joke and police themselves would have to think more than twice about trying to charge someone for some clearly non serious comment.

      So long as people insisted on making serious complaints about each other can you imagine the chaos that would throw the police into?

      And if they show bias about who exactly they want to charge, i.e. they do nothing about britnat pigs making threats to indy supporters but harass and charge indy supporters for calling some particular britnat a moron or something, then bottom line it’s up to people to crowdfund a legal team to challenge and expose them.

      This could be the beginning of another fine mess they get themselves into. Though of course no doubt all would be revealed as we discover through the fair and impartial bbc that Putin and the SNP were behind it all the time, even if some SNP figures appear currently to be angling for a nice wee pat on the head and maybe get their tummies tickled too for being such nice wee servile and grovelling jocks as they jump on the neocon inspired anti Russia hysteria bandwagon.

    178. yesindyref2 says:

      @Nana
      Yeah, the general talk is about “tariffs” in terms of paying some duty. But even without that tariff there’s the “non-tariff tariff”, i.e. paperwork even if it doesn’t cost duty.

      It’s a point few of the pundits giving out on MSM seem to understand.

      Thins is though that even intra-EU there’s a form of “non-tariff tariff” which involves paperwork, or at least electronic bureaucracy.

      It would just be more outside the EU if a cost tariff-free trade agreement can be reached, plus intra-EU it can be done pre border so there is none, whereas outside the EU there’s a physical border.

    179. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Perhaps some of you who are so convinced the man did nothing wrong can explain to me how putting out a video in which you shout over and over again, ‘Gas the Jews’ is a joke.”

      For the reasons explained in the article. I even put them in bold to help the slow-witted.

    180. Foonurt says:

      ‘Sic ’em Pigs’ – Canned Heat
      (B-side of ‘Poor Moon’ (7″) Liberty Records, 1969)

    181. What next; The ducking pond !

    182. Meg merrilees says:

      jfngw

      There were no visible BBC cameras at the HOOP demonstration.
      A few policemen and women.
      All peaceful and extremely good natured. Lots of people, bairns, auld yins, dugs.
      Tommy Sheppard gave a rousing improvised speech, Paul Kavanagh and TWGD were there, pipes and drums and we easily surrounded the Parliament.
      BIKERS FIR YES made a few trips back and forwards and then we all walked away in dribs and drabs to find refreshments and get warm.

      A good day!

    183. alwi says:

      It’s called oppression. To be used against ‘difficult characters’.

    184. David says:

      I used to laugh and hate the whole “PC gone to far” brigade but it really has now gone too far.

    185. Smallaxe says:

      Far enough to be used to our advantage, David. Think of the possibilities for ‘twisting melons’. There could be some people ‘up to their knees in lawyers fees’.
      😉

    186. Robert says:

      “I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind except that you happen to be insane.” Good luck with all that “over there”.

    187. Fearchar says:

      Perhaps you shouldn’t live in a country where police forces can prosecute and also have the power to impugn a citizen’s character with no comeback (some kind of official warning without the right to a trial). In Scots Law, AFAIK, there is a distinction between a hate incident (probably indicating a dodgy neo-Nazi type, but not enough on its own to lead to a charge) and a hate crime, which is essentially a crime with added nastiness. Personally, I don’t see why it wouldn’t be taken into account anyway by a competent Procurator Fiscal and judge, but there’s nothing hidden or sinister about it, nor can motivation alone lead to prosecution, as you seem to be suggesting. Leaving prosecution powers in the hands of the police, on the other hand, as is done in England…

    188. Dillon says:

      As a black independence supporter I’ve always felt included in the movement and still do but some of the comments surrounding this issue dishearten me. Ues freedom of speech is vital to democracy and our movement however the atagonistic nature of this case should be taken into account. I was against him going to jail until I realised that he brought the Tommy Robinson of the English Defence League to court with him. How on earth is that going to prove that you didnt have any racist intentions.

    189. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I was against him going to jail until I realised that he brought the Tommy Robinson of the English Defence League to court with him.”

      Who supports someone is not a good argument for sending them to jail.

    190. Foonurt says:

      Smallaxe – ya dancurr. Boogie oan, doon.

      Mine ye, no sah guid whin yurr huckullt.



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