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Wings Over Scotland

The Birds And The Bs

Posted on October 29, 2019 by

Wings Over Scotland celebrates its 8th birthday this Thursday. And it looks as though we just might be in for a genuinely unexpected surprise party.

Because very suddenly, through sheer dumb luck, and for the first time in over three years, we can actually see a tantalisingly almost-viable route by which the SNP could, almost entirely accidentally, lead us to independence.

It’s a route which hasn’t been opened up by strategy, because the circumstances that have been (perhaps) delivered by the whirling insane maelstrom of UK politics couldn’t have been predicted 48 hours ago, let alone 40 months.

It’s a route beset by an almost comical number of obstacles and potholes, completely unlit, which it may already be too late to get to the destination by, and which the party will need to execute a 100mph U-turn to even start driving up. But a route it is.

Unless everything has changed since yesterday afternoon – which it very well might have – today will see an attempt by the government to do what it failed to do yesterday and trigger a general election. This time it appears that the SNP and Lib Dems might vote with the Tories, giving them the numbers to get it through Parliament.

(This will have to be swallowed rapidly by all the SNP diehards who’ve spent most of the last month screaming at us that under no circumstances could the party ever vote with the Tories to get what they want because it would be political suicide.)

So that’s Obstacle 1. Should the election be successfully triggered, Obstacle 2 is that the Tories have to win it, for multiple reasons which hopefully we don’t need to spell out yet again here for people who weren’t listening the last 65 times.

Obstacle 3 is that the SNP have to explicitly treat the election as a plebiscitary one, conducted solely on the premise of it being a de facto vote on a second independence referendum, for which the party would need to secure not only a majority of seats but a majority of the vote.

(Theoretically they could instead quite reasonably frame the election as a proxy indyref in itself, citing the imminence of a disastrous Brexit as an emergency, and simply then declare independence if they got over 50%, but we think it’s a safe bet to say that’d be a step too far for the party leadership.)

That isn’t only an extremely tall order – the SNP currently sit at around 40% in the polls and have done for a long time – but also requires the party to adopt a position which wasn’t merely rejected at its conference only a couple of weeks ago without even a debate, but which was actually booed and angrily attacked by the party faithful.

(And furthermore, a position which could and probably should have been adopted in the 2017 election, or just deployed in July 2016 with the justification of already having 56 out of 59 MPs and half of the vote, without the need to have wasted three years on the stockpiling of pointless and unused additional mandates.)

Obstacle 4 is actually achieving that 50%+1. If it fails, the Unionist parties will be able to legitimately say “You expressly said this was a vote on a second indyref and you lost it, again. We are fully democratically entitled to reject another referendum.”

Obstacle 5 is that the SNP must then immediately formally request a new Section 30 order. We should allow a marginal possibility that the UK government would agree to do so. But infinitely more plausibly it would refuse, so Obstacle 6 is that the SNP would have to very very rapidly conclude the referendum bill currently making its way through the Scottish Parliament, then announce that it intended to hold an independence referendum on a specified date at the end of 2020 or very early 2021.

Realistically it’s already too late for that to happen because a referendum anywhere between November and February in Scotland is madness on toast, but since we’re expecting a legal challenge anyway it’s a bit of a technicality.

The UK government will attempt to block the vote, taking the matter to the Supreme Court (possibly via other courts along the way). The timescale of this process is difficult to gauge – unlike the Benn Act cases, this will not be seen as a matter of immediate mortal urgency to the UK requiring all other business to be shoved aside –  and it’s very difficult to see it being concluded before the next Holyrood election.

Obstacle 7, therefore, is that pro-indy parties need to secure another majority in the Scottish Parliament to ensure the opposition can’t force the case to be abandoned.

Obstacle 8 is of course that we need to win that case. Legal opinion remains highly divided on the subject, and it requires us to believe in the court’s neutrality. But since that’s always been the case, at least it’s not a new problem.

And finally, Obstacle 9 is the small matter of actually winning the referendum, should everything else up to then have fallen our way.

By that time we should be able to assume that Brexit will be under way, but unless it’s been a no-deal then it will by no means be complete, so we can still expect the arguments that we shouldn’t make such a drastic choice until we know what it looks like. (Those arguments will still be awful and dishonest and irrelevant, but that didn’t stop the No camp in 2014.)

We’ll also have to deal with an electorate that will want more constitutional arguments like it wants to be set on fire and thrown to rabid wolves in a leaky shipping container on the Moon, but since we’re assuming we got over 50% of the vote twice by then, that should be the least of our worries.

So it’s fair to say that it’s not going to be easy. A lot of flighty feathered creatures need to be coaxed and safely transferred from shrubbery to hand. It’s distinctly possible that this new runner will clatter clumsily into the first hurdle. It remains, if we may mix our metaphors still further, a very long shot. But a shot it is, so let’s see how today goes and hope for a happy birthday to us.

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  1. 29 10 19 11:56

    The Birds And The Bs | speymouth

248 to “The Birds And The Bs”

  1. turnbuldrier says:

    yay!! progress (of a possible sort…)

    Oh, happy birfday, by the way.

  2. Ruglonian says:

    I’ll hope for a happy birthday for Wings, but I’m not putting any money on it 😀

  3. winifred mccartney says:

    No one ever said it would be easy but with right on our side surely the people of Scotland will vote yes because if they don’t they really will deserve everything the tories/labour will throw at them.

  4. Macbeda says:

    Happy Birthday to you.

  5. Den Cairns says:

    It’ll be pure pimps. Bappy Hirthday by the way!

  6. Rob Outram says:

    I am genuinely surprised at this move by the SNP and hope that behind the scenes they are attaching section 30 conditions as I type. Boris wont care as long as he wins and if his Scottish rump lose their seats he probably could reasonably appear to be being reasonable in allowing it. The main problem is holding him to any private agreement.

    Anyway Happy 8th, I see you also celebrated by shipping out WoS presents yesterday. Thanks!

  7. MajorBloodnok says:

    There’s light at the end of the tunnel. It could be a train coming the other way, mind you. But at least it’s something.

  8. Patrician says:

    I have said on twitter for while that if we become independent in the next couple of years it will be by accident not design.

  9. bobajock says:

    I hope you note that another Scottish GE, should it need to happen to get a majority of pro-indy MSPs …

    needs another indy party on the list system.

    Waiting ….

  10. SilverDarling says:

    The LIb Dems and Tories will be using the election as a proxy remain/leave vote and Labour will be split.

    As long as the SNP make it crystal clear what they are campaigning on and what the result means, we have something to aim for. We need to look out for lots of BBC/ Scotsman/Herald obfuscation and muddying the waters with MPs being drawn into convoluted debates on Education or other devolved areas.

    We must set be absolutely crystal clear on what is reserved and devolved at every debate and hustings and shut down the attempts to fudge the issues. The constitution should be at the forefront and we need Joanna Cherry to take the lead there.

    This may be a great opportunity. Here’s hoping you can retire at 8!

  11. PRJ says:

    I said something similar yesterday on face book, but I don’t think we need 50%+. We need the SNP to stand on the policy of a vote for them is a mandate for independence and secondary a legal referendum. Winning that vote gives them a legal mandate to demand independence through a confirmatory referendum. This could go one of two ways. 1) A legal challenge before a referendum or 2) A legal challenge after a referendum. As the election was fought on a pacific mandate then the legality would be recognised internationally, it would only be Westminster that will make it difficult.

  12. Bob Costello says:

    Mind you, it would have saved a lot of speculation had this been the plan from the start as it should have been

  13. hackalumpoff says:

    Obstacle 1 approaching fast, here’s the government’s election bill

  14. Fireproofjim says:

    It’s a can of snakes.
    Still, any port in a storm. (A couple of very dubious mixed metaphors there. Sorry)
    We will win big in a GE by demanding an Inderef2 in our manifesto, then Westminster will find it difficult to refuse.
    And happy birthday to Wings. Where would we be without it.

  15. ronnie anderson says:

    I wont be blowing any candles oot the noo , it will be a long long day. So many imponderable’s in the one thread sheesht .

    Rev Thanks for your kind words on Friday re my semi retirement from the Wings Stall , i’ve left it in safe hands with Ruglonian & the rest of the Volunteers .

    Dow,s lounge is booked from 11am until 5pm tea/coffee will be available , limited in snacks so’s bring your own .

  16. ghostly606 says:

    The main SNP focus for the GE will be Brexit I bet. Yes, independence will be discussed, but not in the manner you hope for.

  17. Stuart MacKay says:

    Surely all these obstacles exist regardless of the route being taken. The only real difference is that they all need to be actively demolished instead of waiting for time and circumstance to wear them away. If independence has any real momentum and the numbers are on our wide then overcoming them should not be too much of an effort. Doing this on a strict timetable actually has the advantage of concentrating minds. The result of which independence will be immeasurably stronger from the effort.

    Ladies and Gentlemen start your engines.

    Happy Birthday!

  18. Bob Mack says:

    Rumours spreading that the party may renege on their own vote due to resistance from MPs in Westminster.

    Lets hope not.

    (Head in hands)

  19. ronnie anderson says:

    Dow’s pub Dundas St opposite side entrance to Queen St station .

  20. mike cassidy says:

    And already there’s uncertainty about that 12/12 date.

  21. Fireproofjim says:

    And now Labour say the will support a GE in December.

  22. ScotsRenewables says:

    Looking forward to Nicola’s speech on Saturday. Though she may have to rewrite it more than once before then.

  23. mike cassidy says:

    Worth remembering May had a 20% poll lead when she called a GE to consolidate her position.

    Could Corbyn be a two-trick pony?

    And leave us with stalemate again?

  24. callmedave says:

    A mere bagatelle Rev. Happy Birthday!

  25. IndyCrone says:

    Seen the line up for Saturday. Let’s say I’m in no way hopeful. You can lead a party to water, but you cannae make it drink.Happy birthday Wings.

  26. Breeks says:

    Obstacle 3, where a UK General Election is transformed into a ‘Scottish only’ plebiscite on Independence will fail on the precise Constitutional grounds as the 2016 UK Brexit Referendum, which hasn’t transformed into a ‘Scottish only’ sovereign Remain vote… largely because nobody has had the balls to defend Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty.

    No only did Scotland’s Brexit mandate give Scotland the opportunity to lodge an irremediable constitutional dispute and develop it into a Scottish Constitutional Backstop over Sovereignty, but our ant-Brexit mandate also skipped through the other Obstacles listed above, because it won, in a recognised referendum, and it won emphatically and unambiguously. (something an IndyRef might struggle to achieve).

    We had WON our Independence in 2016, WE WERE THERE! – not because we had a majority in favour of Independence, but because we had a majority in favour of staying in Europe while the rest of the UK left, and that irreconcilable, binary rupture between the two sovereign Components of the Union would have left the Union untenable. It could not have survived.

    The only way we could fuck it up would be through voluntary acquiescence and having our sovereign mandate overruled… pretty much the way the SNP actually has fucked it up.


    All this talk of have a vote, win a majority and the World will respect it is pure Catalonian style delusional wishful thinking. No Constitutional integrity, no legal personality. You’re not sovereign, you’re a subject of a sovereign. It’s up to them to allow your vote to stand or be ignored.

    We are squandering so much time and resource trying to re-invent the wheel which was already invented and Tailor made to fit us in 1320.

    We’d WON a landmark democratic mandate that was more than adequate to kill off the Union in 2016, that was our ‘Bannockburn’, but we are in the process of squandering the opportunity of Independence because our leadership has failed to grasp the potency of Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty. They are allowing OUR sovereign will to be overruled!

    I don’t know why I bother. It’s like speaking to fkg brick wall.

    Maybe I should just give up, and save my pennies up to put a massive bet on at the bookies that win, lose, or draw the next result of a Scottish Election won’t be legally binding on Westminster. The only problem with that notion is that it’s so fkg screamingly obvious the bookies won’t take the bet.

  27. Alasdair Stirling says:

    What do you expect a legal challenge will achieve? A Section 30 is completely in Westminster’s gift and no count in Scotland or England will order the UK Government or Westminster parliament to agree or grant a Section 30 in regard to an independence referendum (or anything else for that matter). As far as I can see, all that a legal challenge can achieve is to have a independence referendum ruled within the competence of the Scottish parliament. So far so good, but that doesn’t compel the government in London to recognise the result of referendum far less act upon it to negotiate independence.

    Unfortunately, I rather think that the UK government would simply announce that such a referendum is unsanctioned (by a Section 30 order) and therefore of no effect and not binding upon them. Such an announcement would almost certainly see the Unionist community boycott the referendum (as happened in Catalonia) and effectively invalidate the result. Worse than that, it would likely depress turnout well below that of 2014 such that, although we win, such a victory would be with fewer votes than the 1.8 million that independence secured in 2014. Such a result would be both a victory and a disaster.

  28. Clapper57 says:


    Lory Lordy Peter Lilley just said on Sky news…SNP won’t want an election when Alex Salmond trial on because….it will show what the SNP have been up to…Adam Boulton FAILED to pull him up by saying well we cannot speculate on someone’s guilt surely OR rope in their respective political party….innocent until proven guilty…also what does “show what the SNP have been up to ” mean in the context of the allegations against Alex salmond ?

    Also going by Peter Lilley’s logic …does the Charlie Elphicke case where he is accused by two women of sexual assault a case which will also be going to trial…does that show what the Tories have been up to ?…not forgetting Theresa May unsuspended him AFTER he was suspended for these allegations so that he could vote on her deal….definitely shows what the Tories were up to…and what and who their priorities were in Elphicke’s case….clue..not the alleged victims but definitely the alleged perpetrator….and the Tory party.

    Well as if we were in any doubt….mucho political capital IS going to be made of this case….however this is a ‘Live’ case so peeps better watch what they say….Lilley yet again proving why he is one of many elite members of the uber Tory C**t squad.

  29. Sharny Dubs says:

    Going on past record there are so many ways the SNP could shoot themselves in the foot!

    It’s a chance, let’s hope we finally stagger over the line!

    Happy birthday!!

  30. Ian Brotherhood says:

    Forgive me if this has already been clarified…

    On Obstacle 4:

    ‘Obstacle 4 is actually achieving that 50%+1. If it fails, the Unionist parties will be able to legitimately say “You expressly said this was a vote on a second indyref and you lost it, again. We are fully democratically entitled to reject another referendum.”’

    Are we talking about 50%+1 of votes cast, or the entire eligible electorate?

    *has a wee shudder, remembering ’79*

  31. jfngw says:

    If we don’t grab this opportunity then it is basically over in my lifetime. I’ll probably just stop voting if we fail, what’s the point when we will have given another country control over Scotland. We would deserve the full bhoona of WM, no more of this mitigation nonsense, spending our block grant to cover WM deficiencies. In fact I may vote Tory in revenge, the worst of both worlds.

  32. Liz g says:

    What I was hoping is that Nicola announces the date ( not that one ) on Saturday,on which the section 30 request will be demanded.
    With an assurance that there will be no ignoring it this time.
    Preferably the morning after the General Election .
    The SNP MPs could then be a lot more disruptive in Westminster till the matter is settled…

    Happy Birthday Wings.. Keep on Keeping on …..

  33. schrodingers cat says:

    making an election a plebicite on indy and or a vote for indyref2 isnt a problem, it is only a matter of wording,

    eg, in 2016 we were concerned about putting indyref2 in the manifesto, ie, if we said we would hold indyref2 and remain won, we would be bound over to hold indyref2, if we didnt put indyref2 in the manifesto and leave won, we wouldnt have had a mandate to hold indyref2

    it looks like we will win back many of the seats we lost in 2017, a night of snp gains, which will give us a mandate to call for a s30, seeing joswin losing her seat would be worth waiting up for 🙂

    if in the unlikely event we did get 50%+ of the vote, it could be argued there is no point in having indyref2,

    in truth, what happens after a ge is unknown, it will depend on the result in england, a hung parliament is possible, but the fptp system is designed to avoid them. most likely boris will win an overall majority, even if the no deal brexit party stands against him.

    boris can then pass his deal or opt for no deal, close reading of the tory manifesto might clarify his intensions.

    boris winning and leaving with no deal is the worst case senario, but it will ensure a swing to yes

    we then follow the path laid out,
    1. demand a s30
    2. if they refuse, legal action
    3. if we lose, we hold a holyrood election, a 2nd indy party will ensure a unionist wipe out
    4.if they still refuse a s30, SNP MPs walk out of the commons and the indy movement needs to switch to civil disobedience

    i think CD is inevitable

  34. Michael Stuart McCreadie says:

    Imagine if UK Gov had had to jump through identical EU hoops for the mere chance of a Brexit vote

  35. schrodingers cat says:

    mike cassidy says:
    29 October, 2019 at 11:10 am
    Worth remembering May had a 20% poll lead when she called a GE to consolidate her position.

    Could Corbyn be a two-trick pony?

    And leave us with stalemate again?


    good, a hung parliament will give us leverage to get a s30

  36. finnz says:

    Every journey begins with a first step. We now need to take that step, and make sure its a bloody big one.

  37. Muscleguy says:

    In terms of the courts the SNP if they’re sensible will have a case ready to go into the Outer Court of Session the minute the Section 30 refusal is in. Thus pre-empting HMG. It might still end up in the Supreme Court of course but the arguments and rulings from the CoS will have to be taken into account by the Supremes.

    So a court case played right could be an advantage. But that is the only silver liining I see.

    Except for the potential unicorn of the SNP declaring ‘this is a referendum vote’ energising the base and perhaps seeing Green and maybe some Labour Yes voters lending the SNP their vote in that circumstance and getting us over the 50+1% mark. It may be The Party has private polling putting that hypthetical to folk but it seems a shoogly peg to hang a winter election on. bad weather on the day and all bets are aff.

  38. Ian McCubbin says:

    You are totally right in this. Inside the top of SNP I know John Swinney sees this. If he does you can bet your last Scottish Puund Nicola does as well.
    I hope and pray all ducks lined and they go for it.
    BTW did urge the 1997 mandate way at Sunday North Tayside CA.
    Pete Wishart was n’t having it. He will rue the day.

  39. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Are we talking about 50%+1 of votes cast, or the entire eligible electorate?”

    Votes cast, of course. People who don’t vote don’t get a say.

  40. ghostly606 says:

    Going to correct myself at 10:55am, independence at heart of SNP election campaign:

  41. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Rev –

    ‘Votes cast, of course.’

    Fair do’s.

    So long as that’s perfectly understood and agreed by everyone involved.

  42. Mist001 says:

    Quote from Iain Blackford in the Grauniad today: “He added that in Scotland “we have the insurance policy of having a referendum on independence”, which the SNP intends to make a key election issue.

    An insurance policy? When did they get Westminsters permission to hold a referendum? I Must’ve missed that.

    And all this time, we’ve been whining about getting a section 30 and the SNP have been sitting on an insurance policy all along.

  43. Alibi says:

    “Votes cast, of course. People who don’t vote don’t get a say.”

    They did in 1979…

  44. SilverDarling says:


    Davidson has resigned her Lobbying job. Maybe looking at BT 2 instead. I mean she surely couldn’t have actually had some insight that it was spectacularly poor judgement?

  45. Happy Birthday Wings

  46. Socrates MacSporran says:

    The problem we will have will be the attempts of the pro-Union media to frame the argument as “SNP Bad.@

    We have seen this in past elections since the SNP first formed the Scottish Government. In TV debates, anti-SNP members of the audience or the panel will be allowed, indeed encouraged to attack the SNP’s record as the Scottish government, while discussion on items over which Westminster does have the say, or, in our hypothetical scenario of making it about Independence, will not be encouraged, or allowed.

    It will, as always, be wall-to-wall SNP Bad, and the SNP’s candidates MUST NOT ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN.

    Refuse to talk about matters which are Holyrood’s remit. Just say: “That is a matter for Holyrood, not Westminster, and this is a Westminster election,” then get it back to Independence.

    They – the three Unionist parties – will try everything to avoid that subject, and their pals in the media will be right behind them on this.

  47. mr thms says:

    Reported that Labour are now backing the GE.
    A Tory victory is not assured since the Brexit Party will take away a lot of votes from both the Tories and Labour.

  48. J Galt says:

    As an SNP member I will of course vote SNP in East Ayrshire.

    However I’m hoping that Boris will win an overwhelming majority in England which will give him a big majority at Westminster.

    I hope this annoys the (present) SNP hierarchy!

  49. SilverDarling says:

    @ Socrates MacSporran

    Yes we must encourage a firm ‘That’s devolved’ everytime. Refer to these guys with a hashtag at every opportunity?

  50. Bob Mack says:

    @Socrates McSporrran,

    Your right of course. We need to come up with a strategy to counteract this. Something we could all do or contribute to.

    There is a wider audience out there and how they perceive for want of a better word ” Propoganda” will be vital. Our message must be more memorable and inspirational and directly aimed as being plausible, to appeal to that wider group.

    It can be done.

  51. schrodingers cat says:

    being saying this for months

    they can try and stop referendums but they cant stop elections?

    every vote from now on, whether a referendum or election will be fought on this ticket until we get 50%+1

    it is fairly certain the snp will win a majority of seats in scotland but might not win 50% of the vote. no matter, we can still pursue a s30 in westminster and the courts.

    at any time the polls show support for indy climbing above 50% we can dissolve holyrood and re run the same manifesto.

    in fact, from now on, this will be the snp position until we do win over 50% of the vote.

  52. Mist001 says:

    Remember though, the core business of the SNP now is stopping Brexit, so I wouldn’t hold out any high hopes of the SNP campaigning on a platform of independence. Stopping Brexit will be the strategy.

  53. dadsarmy says:

    THIS is what Sturgeon tweeted 2 days ago:

    with the 6th part being this:

    6/ Finally, all of this Brexit chaos is being imposed on Scotland against our will. To stop this ever happening again, we need to be independent – which is why the demand for #indyref2020 will be at heart of @theSNP campaign. ENDS

    which is why the demand for #indyref2020 will be at heart of @theSNP campaign

    Seems very clear to me, all that’s needed is to hold her feet to the fire to make her keep her promise (and the SNP).

    Which is why it’s absolutely neccessary to vote SNP this General Election (vote for whoever we like if it gets to the Holyrood Elections without Indy Ref 2 as that promise would be betrayed), AND turn up on Saturday for the Rally in Glasgow in George Square starting at 1.30pm with STURGEON as the main speaker.

  54. schrodingers cat says:

    Angus B MacNeil MP
    So election in December is NOT done & dusted.
    All hinges on votes for EU nationals and 16 to 17 year olds…
    If that amendment passes Gov is likely to pull the Bill.
    If it doesn’t pass then Lab and ALL opposition parties expected to remove support
    Upshot Boris loses either way

  55. Alasdair Angus Macdonald says:

    Congratulations on sustaining this monumental effort for such a long time. When we become an independent country we will owe you – and many of the other bloggers, with some of whom you have had a fractious relationship – sincere thanks.
    You have (mainly) raised the quality of information provided, have debunked the lies of the media and have unpicked the nuances of the debate.
    This must take its toll and, I can understand at times when the tensions boil over, but you have done a great job and can continue to expect my financial support.
    VENCEREMOS! (Even though you are not a socialist!)

  56. schrodingers cat says:

    Jeremy Corbyn
    No Deal is now off the table so tonight Labour will back a General Election.

    We’re launching the most ambitious and radical campaign for real change our country has ever seen.

    This is a once in a generation chance to build a country for the many, not the few.

    It’s time.

  57. schrodingers cat says:

    snp backing of the PV campaign has brought over many nos to yes so it has been a successful political strategy

    it only contradicts our demand for indyref2 if it happens and remain wins

    nb. the second this ge is announced and becomes official, the campaign for a PV will die off completely

    no contradiction then

  58. callmedave says:

    As mentioned previously.

    Ruth Davidson backs down on plan to take job with lobbying firm

  59. Bob Mack says:

    Apparently twitter incicating Labour frontbench and whip resignations over decision to back general election. Labour as you would expdct fracturing yet again, just in time to be unelectable.

  60. Scott says:

    Re Davidson.
    Ruth Davidson backs down on plan to take job with lobbying firm.

    Why no comments allowed by BBC if had been SNP person it would have happened.

  61. desimond says:

    Happy Birthday, lang may yir lum reek.

    Ive no idea what is happening these days.
    I still cant believe we signed a letter to EU with the Lib Dems..what the hell were we thinking?

    Then the talk of voting with Tories…why?

    Even abstaining allows some political wriggle room but going all in with Tories and Lib Dems leaves very small room to manoeuvre when it comes to calling them out during an election debates.

    Im starting to fear the horror that is Swinson will not only survive a GE vote in East Dunby but actually look good enough to vote for to other Scottish folk.

    The SNP look all over the place at present and its gonna take some amount of work to get this all on track as necessary.

    I pray the SNP Media team get Joanna Cherry front and least she can always be relied to remember the #1 priority is Independence.

  62. schrodingers cat says:

    desimond says:
    Im starting to fear the horror that is Swinson will not only survive a GE vote in East Dunby but actually look good enough to vote for to other Scottish folk.


    where? from who?

  63. schrodingers cat says:

    callmedave says:
    As mentioned previously.

    Taxi for Davidson 🙂

  64. Auld Rock says:

    Let’s dump the negativity, for G’s sake let’s just remember that we are all supposed to be AUOB!!!!

  65. I’ve been pushing for this for a while now: that the GE should *specifically* be about obtaining a mandate for an S30.

    The only part I disagree with is the toughest obstacle:

    >for which the party would need to secure not only a majority of seats but a majority of the vote.

    There’s no need to aim that high or to be that specific. Instead, just *generally* talk and talk and talk (to Yessers at least; other messages for soft Nos are fine) about securing a mandate for an S30.

    There is no need for any party in any GE to get over 50% of the vote to claim a mandate for anything, and especially not in this election, where no other party is likely to top 35%. GEs are not referenda.

    Different story, maybe, if the SNP were aiming to secure a mandate for indy itself in the GE. But a (second? Third?) mandate for an S30? No. A majority of seats would be enough, and 70%+ of the seats would certainly be enough.

    Such an approach would fire up the troops on the doorsteps so we have no repeat of the milquetoast 2017 shambles, and would secure the mandate we need to pressure Johnson or the courts over the S30. But as you say, it has to be made explicit that this election is about obtaining that mandate.

    The biggie, as everybody knows, will be what the courts decide. But lets get these other ducks in a row first.

    Haven’t time to read all the comments now, so apologies if others have already said all this.

  66. frogesque says:

    Davidson’s been sacked/decided not to take up her lobbying role.

    Guess the useful idiot’s not so useful after all.

  67. chicmac says:

    It should be 50%+1 of the total indy party votes, not just the SNP.

  68. Jack Murphy says:

    Happy 8th Birthday on Thursday Wings and Stu.

  69. Brian says:

    I really want Independence but why do i have the feeling it will get fucked up again and this time by our own side?

  70. Can’t believe I just said “ducks in a row” in public. Sincere apologies for the David Brentspeak.

  71. mr thms says:

    Mist001 @ 12:25 pm
    Remember though, the core business of the SNP now is stopping Brexit, so I wouldn’t hold out any high hopes of the SNP campaigning on a platform of independence. Stopping Brexit will be the strategy.

    They are connected.

    During the Scottish Referendum the EU Commissioner said an independent Scotland can only ‘join’ the EU under Article 49.

    For that to happen the UK has to leave the EU, since it is the member state.

    The EU Withdrawal Act 2018 is a very significant piece of legislation that benefits Scotland.

    Scroll down to

    Aspect 2: The European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 as a ‘continuance clause’

  72. Davidson’s name reported on BBC as being on Tory election material already circulating in Scotland

    No mention of the scandal

    Maybe the BBC feel Joe Swinson is not up to the job of maligning the SNP in this election

    They might be better to ask a few on here to do the job

  73. Lochside says:

    Clapper57 says:
    29 October, 2019 at 11:22 am

    ‘Lory Lordy Peter Lilley just said on Sky news…SNP won’t want an election when Alex Salmond trial on because….it will show what the SNP have been up to…Adam Boulton FAILED to pull him up by saying well we cannot speculate on someone’s guilt surely OR rope in their respective political party….innocent until proven guilty…also what does “show what the SNP have been up to ” mean in the context of the allegations against Alex salmond ?’

    This is Lord Lilley, leading Brexiteer who is a Director of Idox, the company that ‘lost’ 1.1 million Brexit postal votes. The company that also was involved in the Indyref electoral process. Lilley, a right wing Thatcherite who is able to slander both AS and the SNP with impunity live on tv. And the Britnat nascent fascist state is going to allow an S30 and a free and democratic Indyref2?….well, like many others, I live in hope. See you at Freedom Sq. on Saturday.

    BTW Happy Birthday Wings and well played REV, I salute your indefatigability!

  74. Jack Murphy says:

    Hoping this is the final word on this Thread re Davidson.

    5 days ago the BBC reported this significant truth:

    ” The UK’s largest PR trade body, the Public Relations and Communications Association (PRCA), has criticised Ms Davidson’s appointment.

    PRCA director general Francis Ingham said: “It is simply wrong for lobbying agencies to employ legislators. ”

    “The possible conflict of interest in doing so is clear, and damages the reputation of both our industry, and of the political process.”

  75. robbo says:

    If SNP get 50+ MP’s returned in this GE and wipe Tories and Labour out in Scotland how could a request for s30 be legitimately refused?- just asking like

  76. Lochside says:

    Any bets Davidson has been offered at least double her £50k to lead BT mark 2..and .. a chance to take up her PR role again post the vote?

  77. Scozzie says:

    Happy birthday Wings.

    Section 30 is dead duck and the SNP have backed themselves into a corner over these last 3 years. But it is what it is and they need to throw a spanner in the works now.

    I think the SNP should go ahead and demand the S30 with the expected refusal or ‘now is not the time’ fudge and then kill it as an option citing WM will not cooperate in good faith. Thus announce a referendum is no longer achievable with the current WM regime and they will activate other options.

    Following this, they should formally state to WM that they will declare independence on the basis of a 2021 HR election win – and if they can manufacture a dissolution of HR to hold an earlier HR election all the better. They should also state that any crackdown from WM on Scotland exercising our democratic legitimacy will lead to the Courts to test our sovreignty of the Scottish people to dissolve the Treaty of Union.

    The SNP need to be prepared to u-turn on their preferred route of indyref2. And I hope they’re nimble enough to change tactics – we need to play hardball now.

    It throws our existing mandates in the bin but I’ve long since held the view that NS wants to can kick to 2021 anyway. S30 refusal would give her the justification to kick the can down the road to 2021.

    They need to shake things up and take risks. Right now I don’t see any boldness but I hope to be surprised.

  78. dadsarmy says:

    Good to see Wings moving back to the mainstream of Independence, just in time for the probable GE which the SNP have said they will be fighting on a platform of #indyref2020, and of course, Indy Ref 2 – in 2020!

    Won’t be long now.

    It’s a YES from me.

  79. dadsarmy says:

    Is there something about the following, people with cloth eyes don’t or won’t understand?

    Sturgeon 2 days ago about the coming GE: “which is why the demand for #indyref2020 will be at heart of @theSNP campaign

    Check it out.

  80. Iain Hamilton says:

    Lochside says:

    “Any bets Davidson has been offered at least double her £50k to lead BT mark 2..and .. a chance to take up her PR role again post the vote?”

    I’d go for the double that she’s in front of her mirror, right now, practicing her angry face.

  81. Capella says:

    Happy Birthday Wings! I’m glad to see a positive line of argument on the SNP strategy. However, they have always argued for an election to get rid of the Tories so that is not new. If anyone is backed into a corner it is Boris Johnston and possibly also Jeremy Corbyn.

    Labour have obligingly adopted the SNP demands for 16 – 18 year olds’ votes and EU citizens’ votes. They are also agreeing that a date earlier than 12 December is required. It could be argued that it is labour and the Tories who are voting in support of the SNP and Lib Dems. Reframe.

    Nicola’s well timed speech at the Glasgow rally will fire the starting gun on the independence campaign.

    However, re campaigning for independence in an election – I was at the SNP conference and heard no booing or attack on the Plan B debate. Chris McEleny was given the Platform to make his case. Everyone listened attentively. It was put to a vote of members who almost unanimously voted against. But campaigning in a GE for independence is not the same as having a formal Plan B.

    So things seem to be moving along nicely as we speak. Of course, who knows what will actually happen before the voting in the HoC ends. Fingers crossed.

  82. Republicofscotland says:

    It hasn’t a snowballs chance in hell of succeeding. In reality we all know that come next year Johnson or whoever is PM will say no for permission to hold a second indy ref.

    In reality the SNP are banking on the next PM saying no to raise their stock even higher come the next Scottish elections in 2021. Only then is there a real possibility of holding a second indy ref.

    However by then Johnson or whoever is the British PM might have focused on derailing another indy ref, and the full weight of the unionist machine will, once again be on its feet, fighting fit without the hinderance of an initial Brexit to worry about.

    2021 later in the year looks like something actually might happen and not 2020.

  83. Bradford Millar says:

    Hey Rev are you going to apologise after your diatribe aimed at Nicola the other day unlike you Nicola and the SNP knew what they were doing by putting the motion forward with the Lib Dems was aimed at humiliating Labour into showing some back bone … which has now worked … This is the last extension the EU was going to give to us … something had to give …. now get behind the SNP campaign to get Indyref2 and stop being a little bitch

  84. Republicofscotland says:

    Dadsarmy @14.02.

    Looks like Sturgeons Twitter feed is crawling with Denison barracks boo boys.

  85. If the SNP did win a majority of seats in the GE with 40% of the vote, and the Tories were to claim that that cannot be a case for independence.

    Then if the Tories Winn the GE with a majority on 35% of the vote, surely the SNP could make the comparison?

  86. callmedave says:

    Tories stumble out of the chamber like drunks from the pub as Blackford rises to speak. 🙂

    Mind you they have heard it all before. But maybe a new twist today ….with an amd perhaps. 🙂

  87. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    schrodingers cat @ 11:34:

    if in the unlikely event we did get 50%+ of the vote, it could be argued there is no point in having indyref2

    Absolutely (on both counts).

    It’s enough to go to the country on a clear up-front manifesto demand for IR2 in the coming year (and the earlier in the year the better, IMO). No self-imposed hurdle needed. What follows a likely successful campaign on that basis will follow.

    (I still reckon something will break before any kind of direct action is needed. The current British state is a hollow husk.)

    Step by step. We just have to take the next one now. Resolutely.

  88. Bob Mack says:

    @Bradford Miller,

    Stu owes nobody anything. He never promised to keep Scotlznd in Europe or to have an independence referendum.

    Somebody did though.

  89. red sunset says:

    Happy Birthday Wings. And well done Stu for keeping this going so long. So many others on here have not been able to last the pace. When the history of this campaign is finally written, Wings will be centre forward.

  90. wull says:

    Congratulations, and very many thanks, to Wings for providing 8 years of such excellent service to the pro-Independence movement and to all of us. This time next year, will it be a 9th birthday? Or will that be unnecessary, since the goal will already have been achieved? If it hasn’t, I think we will be on the cusp of it … and Wings won’t reach the grand old age of 10 …

    But if I am wrong, and we still haven’t scored that winning goal, please don’t despair … Keep on keeping on.

    Whatever happens today – and almost anything could happen (as. indeed, could absolutely nothing) – we still have it all to play for. And, let’s be positive: we ARE winning. We really are, even if it’s still a wee while to go before the full-time whistle blows, and we have not yet finally won … But we are well on the way …

    I can still see Johnson pulling this bill, as he almost certainly will if an amendment passes allowing either European nationals to vote, and/or those aged 17-and-18-years-old. But if he does that, it will only add still further evidence of his anti-democratic credentials. Even without the votes of Europeans and younger citizens, this is still a mighty opportunity for us, and for the ultimate success of the independence campaign.

  91. Ahundredthidiot says:


    afford yourself a wee pat on the back

  92. Terry says:

    He he. You’re naughty but I like you rev. I get your drift.
    Time for another party to give snp the boot up the bum they need.

  93. Willie says:

    Never truly understood why a majority of MPs was never enough for independence.

    That’s what Brexit in Johnsons deal with the EU is about. Enough MPs and out.

    But not so for Scotland!

    For Scotland a different hoop.Only by a referendum denied by the same MPs who took us out of the EU will Scotland be reason enough

    This time the MPs don’t count. Well they fickin should!

    Or what of a 60% rule or whatever else to keep Jocko jumping and denied indy. wh

    Like many members I am distraught at how devolutionist and meekly compliant SNP policy appears to have become as Nicola dances to Westminster’s tune.

    Time to mandate the GE as our independence General Election.

  94. Josef Ó Luain says:

    @ Alisdair Angus McDonald

    Happy Birthday, Wings!

    The Rev is no Socialist, and that’s a glaring fact, but he’s, as you suggest, pretty damn good at what he does.

  95. Clapper57 says:

    @ Lochside @ 1.36pm

    yep Lochside, he is a piece of work.

    I remember that shocking speech he gave where he attacked single mothers on benefits when he was in Thatcher’s cabinet…you can still see the bitterness and cruelty etched on his face….like many of his Tory soul mates namely Michael Forsyth, Tebbit and too many others to name he is bereft of compassion , empathy or decency in the callous view he holds in relation to those who are less fortunate .

    That fact that he is brexiteer on steroids as in Uber Uber Brexit preferably rock hard…more money to be made… should be a shock to no one…those Tory Uber Brexit mob are a totally repugnant tribe who are more diligent in ensuring their own needs are met than the needs of those less fortunate souls that Tories like him so easily disregard and berate….some of the more ‘ordinary’ brexit peeps are in for a shock when they see how their beloved Tory party will ‘take back control’ and apply ‘their laws’ to replace EU laws…now that will definitely be an exercise beneficial for the few and NOT so much for the many me thinks….and will be orgasmic to people like Lilley.

    BTW I knew about that swine’s involvement re postal votes..he can GTF with that come Indy Ref 2….nothing would be beyond that C*&$……for sure.

    BTW BBC QT better not have that C**% Forsyth on when in Glasgow.

  96. dakk says:

    Happy birthday Wings Over Scotland.

    We’re going to need you now more than ever.

    Finally the moment I didn’t think would come is almost upon us.

    Brexit britain or Indy Scotland?

    A second chance to save Scotland from the filthy british liars and thieves.

  97. manandboy says:

    Patrician says: at 10:29 am
    “I have said on twitter for while that if we become independent in the next couple of years it will be by accident not design.”

    I subscribe to that, Patrician. Indy2014 showed that Scotland would probably need a ‘weakened’ England, or some other outside force, in order to gain Independence.

    Back then, of course, no one could have predicted, even in their most extreme fantasies, that England would engage in such self-destruction as we have seen. And, it’s not finished yet, not by a long way.

    The ‘avalanche’ of Brexit self-harm continues to tear England apart, causing unimaginable damage to the political institutions, particularly, the Unionist Alliance of Labour and the Conservatives, but not forgetting the Electorate itself.
    It will be very interesting to see how they vote in the forthcoming General Election. Should be quite a show, and in mid-winter too. Can’t wait!

  98. manandboy says:

    Sorry, Stu, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

  99. Gary says:

    You’re beginning to sound like the SNP leadership. Because isn’t at least part of this what they’re planning anyway?

    I understand why you are critical of the SNP stance on Brexit but remember whilst the THREAT of being dragged out ‘against her will’ (Scotland that is) is a real rallying call for Indy the actual FACT of Brexit works AGAINST Indy. What I mean is that Scotland remaining IN the EU and rUK being OUT will be an opening for Unionists to campaign claiming that the Breit fiasco would ‘be as nothing’ to ‘breaking up the UK’ Which is in fact nonsense BUT could play well for them among the more nervous floating voters who may, as last time, not have worked out that Westminster likes telling porkies. In part, they ARE right, it WOULD be problematic but not AS problematic as us continuing in the UK and being dragged into the mess that England & Wales voted for. We would be SO much better off as part of 28 members in the EU with a seat at the table than part of a ‘union’ where we have NO voice and is hell bent on our destruction…

  100. manandboy says:

    A very controversial ‘senior advisor’ wouldn’t be of much use to Tulchan, starting with tarnishing the firm’s name and heaping bad publicity on the business.

    In short, she was cancelled.

  101. Fireproofjim says:

    Margaret Thatcher actually said that if Scotland sends a majority of independence supporting MPs to Westminster they should have it.
    Currently the Tories have about 38% of the votes yet can drag us all out of the EU and deny Scotland any rights.

  102. Clapper57 says:


    “Ruth Davidson has quit her PR job before she even started. says the debate about it has become “increasingly contentious” and if she has to choose between that job and Holyrood, then “I choose the parliament”.

    Sorry how is she CHOOSING the parliament…it is my understanding she is NOT going to stand in 2021 so clearly in the long term NOT choosing the parliament…would have made more sense to give up the MSP role….but that would have made it seem like she WAS being inappropriate in her choice of new job…as all have said….surely the above quote from Philip Sim should be :

    ‘ Ruth Davidson has quit her job…as been rightly called out that as an MSP her new job was a conflict of interest so in order to look as if she is doing something noble she has given up her new PR job….obviously still looking for another lucrative role outwith the parliament…preferably one where , for people like her, there will be mega money for minimum hours’

    Was she not contending that nothing wrong with new PR job in relation to her still being an MSP..has she been advised (told) by colleagues tis one or t’other…not both…after all there is an election soon to be ……….lost by them Lol

  103. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “What do you expect a legal challenge will achieve? A Section 30 is completely in Westminster’s gift and no count in Scotland or England will order the UK Government or Westminster parliament to agree or grant a Section 30 in regard to an independence referendum (or anything else for that matter). As far as I can see, all that a legal challenge can achieve is to have a independence referendum ruled within the competence of the Scottish parliament. So far so good, but that doesn’t compel the government in London to recognise the result of referendum far less act upon it to negotiate independence.”

    I don’t think they’d refuse if they’d lost in court over the referendum’s legality. I can’t GUARANTEE that, but that’s my view.

  104. manandboy says:

    Guardian news line reporting :-

    Government will pull bill if amendments to give vote to EU nationals or 16- and 17-year-olds pass, says No 10 source
    Peter Walker Peter Walker
    If anyone had any doubt about this, Downing Street has confirmed it will withdraw the general election bill if MPs attach amendments to extend votes to either 16- and 17-year olds, or EU nationals.

    Boris Johnson’s spokesman had already said such a move would bring “administrative chaos”, and go against the convention that changes to the franchise are done over time and via consultation, but went no further.

    However, a No 10 source confirmed such amendments would be fatal to the bill:

    You cannot honestly argue that you are supporting an election on 12 December and vote for a change in the franchise. It’s quite clear a vote to change the franchise would create a six-month delay.”

    A hiccup – or cardiac arrest?

  105. Cubby says:

    If the GE goes ahead at least that will be the last time we hear Kate Hoey, Labour (but really Orange Order) speak as she is standing done.

  106. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    manandboy @ 16:27,

    Seems Angus MacNeil was mistaken then, Boris is going to be kept twisting impotently in a cage for at least a while longer, then. A cage to which he even has a key! Heh, heh.

    If this were a TV series, you wouldn’t dare make this up!

  107. Terry says:

    Well said this Winger.

    Bob Mack says:
    29 October, 2019 at 3:15 pm
    @Bradford Miller,

    Stu owes nobody anything. He never promised to keep Scotlznd in Europe or to have an independence referendum.

    Somebody did though.

  108. You know those hedge fund sharks who paid for Johnson’s leadership campaign and will make £8 billion from shorting the pound after Brexit wreck the UK economy? I wonder if they might be interested in something similar with Scottish independence. I.e. bribe Johnson to facilitate independence and thereby wreck the English economy for a second time, so they can make more billions shorting the pound again.

    It’s a serious question. Why wouldn’t they want to do this if it’s working first time round?

  109. Famous15 says:

    Remember the Alamo!

    Remember “lobbygate” Look it up and reid it!

    Remember the people have the power .

    Over seventies should pass their vote to younger people on future matters.

    If Europeans and 16 year olds do not get to vote I will not agree to a GE.

    The righteous always triumph.

  110. Capella says:

    Alison Thewliss told the HoC that allowing 16 – 18 year olds to vote would not be difficult as they are all registered to vote in the LA elections in England. They are, of course, already registered in Scotland.

    The EU citizens who have settled status, will also be registered somewhere.

    So not a reasonable excuse to pull the bill.

    Kate Hooey doesn’t want them to vote because she knows that will alter the result. So it’s a purely mendacious attempt to gerrymander the election.
    No taxation without representation.

  111. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Famous15 @ 16:55,
    Capella @ 17:12,

    It’s not clear to me whether the “16-17+EU” amendment is the opposition parties merely making a point to the country about democratic deficit, or if it is a genuine sticking point.

    I guess we’ll see soon enough

    As for the antediluvian Kate Hoey, the unacceptable face of Unionist Labour, the sooner gone from public life the better.

  112. schrodingers cat says:

    amendments on 16/17 year olds and EU nationals have NOT been selected.

    corbyns 9th dec ammendment has

  113. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Breaking news: the “16-17+EU” amendment(s) haven’t been accepted for consideration. Only the earlier possible election date.

  114. Colin Alexander says:

    SNP winning the election: reinforced mandate for indyref2.

    SNP standing on pro-indy ticket only: Greens and other pro-indy parties step aside this time.

    50% +1 of the votes cast in Scotland for SNP gives mandate to declare Scotland a sovereign state.

    However, the greatest success for Nicola Sturgeon and the current SNP leadership has been as British devolution administrators. I can’t see them wanting to give that up.

    Happy Birthday Wings!

  115. dadsarmy says:

    The 16/17 year old and EU National is pure politicking, and is unreasonable to spring without a fair amount of debate over weeks. No harm in them doing it all the same, and no wonder those amendments weren’t selected.

    Key thing I think is to get this stupd GE over with ASAP.

  116. velofello says:

    Eight years since I mused..”who’s this abrasive Wings son of a gun?”. All strength to you, I’m really enjoying the flight.

  117. dadsarmy says:

    Pooh, who dropped that!

  118. Sinky says:

    Those banking on SNP to win 50 seats should keep in mind that the Greens are contesting most Westminster seats which they didn’t do in 2017,

    It was the Greens’ misguided intervention that helped Ruth Davidson gain her Holyrood seat in Edinburgh Central.

  119. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dierdre Brock MP just gave a stonker of a speech in the HoC. Looks like the SNP are ready to come out of the starting gate with exactly the fighting spirit we all want to see.

  120. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Sinky @ 17:29,

    I appreciate the sensitivities, although Buffalo Gal was in a Holyrood constituency contest, which was somewhat different. But if the ScotGreens want to waste their precious resources and demonstrate their total irrelevance in a UKGE, that’s of course their democratic privilege.

    Though no doubt we’ll have Lord Hee Haw along in a jiffy encouraging us to give them a chance.

  121. Mist001 says:

    I don’t know about anyone else but if the GE is confirmed tonight, it’s going to feel like such a weight off my shoulders, after all the stress of Brexit and the SNP position. At long last, there’s going to be some clarity and action at last!

  122. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Regarding Jo Swinson (sufferer of irritable vowel syndrome), Leader of the FibDems current parliamentary seat, assuming she is true to her word and not a proper Carmichael (no laughing at the back!) and intends to defend it.

    So the Leader of the 4th largest party at Westminster only has a majority of 5,339

    This makes the seat a marginal.

    Turnout 2017 vs 2015 was down 3,070 (potentially SNP not getting the vote out).

    An Election Manifesto with Indy front and centre and a campaign which manages to spike the MSM/BBC devolved issue smoke and mirrors BritNat Propaganda campaign should see the SNP regain the seat.

  123. Andy Anderson says:

    Happy birthday Wings.

    Your work and efforts for indy is appreciated even though you may annoy us now and then. You do a great job.

  124. AberdeenPict says:

    Wait a miniute though! we are getting well ahead of ourselves here, we need the guidance of Federal Broon with his Oracle, Sage like wisdom, when are they wheeling him out? 🙂

    Happy Birthday Wings.

  125. Capella says:

    I don’t agree that the EU citizens vote and 16 – 18 year old vote is “pure politicking”. Both of these groups will overwhelmingly vote for a Remain party. There are 3 million EU Citizens and most are tax payers. “No taxation without representation” is a basic democratic principle, capable of fomenting revolution.

  126. Heart of Galloway says:

    Many happy returns to Wings.

    If the Dec 9 GE comes to pass Stu’s forensic skills in taking apart distortions and lies of the MSM and their sock puppets at Holyrood and Westminster will be needed as never before,

    Roasting BawJaws on a spit may be great sport. But his media chums will part company with all ethics and reason, all professional standards and integrity, in their campaign against the independence movement.

  127. Al-Stuart says:

    Happy Birthday Stu. and Wings,

    Bradford Millar says…“Hey Rev are you going to apologise after your diatribe aimed at Nicola the other day unlike you Nicola and the SNP knew what they were doing by putting the motion forward with the Lib Dems was aimed at humiliating Labour into showing some back bone”.

    Bradford Millar, Nicola and Ian Blackford have taken a HUGE gamble with the lives of many people with disabilities.

    Ian Blackford has managed to BOUNCE Labour into voting for a general election.

    BUT with Labour 15% behind this far right wing Tory Party the SNP now supporting the Tories are doing three things…

    1). A HIGH risk of the SNP condemning hundreds of thousands of vulnerable people with disabilities to FIVE years of Boris killing them with the vicious Tory DWP welfare reform death factories run by the lethal Tory henchmen… ATOS + MAXIMUS + CAPITA.


    2). The SNP will NEVER be forgiven by THOUSANDS of former Labour voting folk who joined the SNP in 2015 and “lent” their vote to the SNP. If the SNP have condemned us to FIVE more years of Tories Westminster rule those “lent” votes will be repossessed.

    3). Ian Blackford’s legacy in 2019 is likely to be 40 year anniversary to the infamous 1979 allegation that the SNP Tory supporting vote caused Margaret Thatcher to be elected. That risk should make decent SNP folk shudder.

    No matter what the forensic analysis of the 1979 SNP involvement in electing Margaret Thatcher and 18 years of Tory rule is, the fact that the SNP LOST 9 of our 11 SNP MPs at that time should be cause for thought. Fact: the voters told the SNP they were wrong back in 1979.

    Ian Blackford is an investment banker. He gambles with other people’s’ money. He is now gambling with the future of the SNP thinking he will secure 56 new SNP MPs. But if, as the polls for 2019 December GE indicate is likely, the 1979 SNP support of the Tories being repeated mean our current 35 SNP MPs may well go down to 11 SNP MPs again.

    Blackford will be fine. He has a juicy banker pension + MP pension.

    As for the likes of Paul Reekie who DIED from welfare reforms in Edinburgh, Ian Blackford will have some questions to answer.

    This post is in answer to Bradford Millar…

    Bradford Millar says:
    29 October, 2019 at 2:20 pm
    Hey Rev are you going to apologise after your diatribe aimed at Nicola the other day unlike you Nicola and the SNP knew what they were doing by putting the motion forward with the Lib Dems was aimed at humiliating Labour into showing some back bone … which has now worked … This is the last extension the EU was going to give to us … something had to give …. now get behind the SNP campaign to get Indyref2 and stop being a little bitch

    Al says: Bradford Millar, your are a very rude guest.

  128. ahundredthidiot says:

    wee ruthie on the news acting all stupid

    the only woman I can comfortably refer to as a nasty wee prick

  129. Terry callachan says:

    In a general election Scotland doesn’t need 50% of the votes we just need an increased majority of seats after all the british hailed the Tory 13 as a win.

    In a Holyrood election SNP just need to maintain or increase the number of MP,s they have.

    Both of these will be reason enough to go ahead with a Scottish independence referendum.

    All those in Scotland wanting Scottish independence will vote SNP in all three votes.

    All those not wanting Scottish independence will vote tactically in the first two then they will vote NO in the referendum.

    No need for SNP to overcommit what achievement is needed to validate a Scottish independence referendum.
    A simple increase in seats in each election will be enough.

  130. The Supreme Court upheld the Theaty of the Union of the Scottish and English Parliaments when it deemed that Westminster was sovereign, not the prime minister, not the Monarch when Boris decided to prorogue Parliament. That same court would decide that the Scottish people are sovereign. These two sovereignties were decided in 1689 and included in the Treaty of Union. The Treaty was signed between two INDEPENDENT countries, any one of which could rescind the Treaty if it so wishes. This would be recognized in all international courts.

  131. Wynn Thorne says:

    I think you can see that the SNP have played their cards much better than any of the other parties and more cleverly than you gave them credit for on this website. As I said before the route to independence is Gorbachev not Yeltsin.

  132. dadsarmy says:

    I take it you didn’t bother reading my reply on the previous thread you spaffed your shouty rude Cobynista crap on, here it is and the posting after:

    It points out that with benefits devolved to Scotland, ATOS and Capita are being sacked in Scotland. Meanwhile, according to your own UK wide website Reekie died in Edinburgh – in June 2010 scant weeks after the Tories won the May election, and it was Brown and Blair that brought in ATOS and Capita, the Tories just kept them going.

    The party you are trying your hardest to get people not to vote for IS THE ONE THAT IS GETTING RID OF ATOS AND CAPITA.

    Dadsarmy says Al-Stuart is either totally ignorant of Scotland or deceitful.

    And here’s an article today from The National – that’s the Indy supporting newspaper in Scotland:

  133. Liz g says:

    Now I know we’re all going to be told that the people of Scotland were promised “once in a Generation”
    I suggest reminding anyone who says it that we were also promised “Dead in a Ditch” 🙂

  134. Bradford Millar says:

    Al-Stuart says

    lives are being lost and welfare being cut to the needy as we speak .. as Labour continues to pussyfoot and make no effort to deal with Tories they are stricken with fear how much longer have the people of Scotland to wait before these Shysters find a back bone and take the tories on ?? how much longer have we to wait ?? this will more than likely be the last extension UK gets to avoid Brexit … we cannot afford not to act failure to act will see us out of the EU with no deal via default … if you are not happy then tough

  135. Bradford Millar says:

    too much is at stake for us not to act…. point me out 1 time Labour has supported a SNP motion in Westminster and you demand the SNP be tied to these shysters … speaks volumes to me your attitude does

  136. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Thanks for all your efforts Stu, we are getting there, slowly but getting there.

  137. willie says:

    @ Fireproofjim:

    Bang on Jim, circa 38% of a vote to the Tories, a minority government and then a majority of MPs voting in the Commons and we are all out of the EU.

    No fucking ifs or buts, if that’s what a majority, ever so small vote, then out it is.

    Consider then 56 out of 59 SNP MPs and they can all go and fuck themselves with a big stick. Sorry about the language but it exposes the difference.

    Unless we mandate our MPs in Scotland for an exit from the UK its turkeys voting for an early Christmas to return a Tory majority.

  138. Mist001 says:

    O/T but the Paul Reekie I knew was different from the one who’s been lionized since his passing. Welfare cuts didn’t help of course, but that doesn’t tell the whole story, IMO.

  139. Fireproofjim says:

    The nonsense about over seventies, like me, not getting a vote on the future of our country is infuriating when you think that it was people like me that kept the Independence movement going when it was considered to be an eccentric fringe.
    It won’t happen off course but if it did I would be first to call for National Service to be re-introduced, with extra discipline for sixteen to twenty year olds.
    That’ll show the ungrateful wretches.

  140. mike cassidy says:

    Oh and happy birthday to the grumpy old man in the pub.

    Long may you grump!

  141. Iain mhor says:

    Happy Birthday and Congratulations Wings!

    Can’t argue too much with the individual points, though I’m not sure they are all required, nor the 50% +, but lining them all up is certainly the strongest scenario.
    Still ironic, that in order to obtain what Scotland apparently deems the apex of democracy (referendum and wide ranging enfranchisement) it can only do so through ‘lesser’ or ‘inferior’ democratic processes; much of which disenfranchises many Scots and does not require majority voting. Though I note there are whispers of expanding a GE to 16yr olds and EU voters, as in Scottish elections.

    Hey ho, the games afoot…

  142. Mist001 says:

    December 12th it is. The amendment for the 9th was defeated.

  143. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Looks like SNP abstained and the motion for an Election on the 9th December failed.

    20 of a majority for BoJo

    35 Abstentions for SNP

    Did they think it would pass without their votes?

  144. robert boland says:

    It’s not the first time Sky news have come up with the Alex Salmond thing, Just last week they brought Nicola Sturgeon into the mixture,suggesting she was involved in a cover up and why SNP don’t want an GE early next year,during the Salmond trial.. The Britnat media have begun sowing their seeds of doubt amongst the public.

  145. Iain mhor says:

    Garrgh, it appears the amendment to include 16-17 yr olds has not been selected. No taxation without representation eh? Aye it’s barely fifty years since 18 yr olds got the vote. If they had their way, it would be males, property owners and over 30’s only, again.

  146. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    OK ignore my post at 8:10pm

    CommonsVote App Hasn’t updated so looking at wrong vote.

  147. TJenny says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker – I think they voted for the bill to hold it on the 9th, which failed and they abstained from ? 3rd readng?

  148. TJenny says:

    JWT – posts crossed in the ether.;-)

  149. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Capella @ 18:02,

    I’m not sure this was a response to a post of mine, but if so, I agree with you completely. My point was rather that it might have been an attempt to underline those very issues, albeit in circumstances in which there was no realistic expectation that it would in fact succeed in the current HoC. (As indeed proved to be the case.)

  150. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Nae bother @TJenny, I jumped the gun.

    Ayes 438

    No’s 20

    I suspect the 20 are DUP, Change UK and Green who will be bombed out as this GE will be all about Indy in Scotland and Brexit in rUK.

    12th December is the date for the domino to fall.

  151. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker @ 20:29,

    12th December is the date for the first domino to fall.

    Sorted. =grin=

  152. James says:

    I can’t see SCOTTYLAND ever being independent. Too many dumb fucks.

  153. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Definitely was wrong at 8:10pm

    SNP voted FOR 9th December.

    19 Ex Tory “Independents”

    3 Change UK

    10 DUP

    Kate Hoey

    282 Tories

    Voted against

    Apologies once again.

  154. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    NEXT domino to fall @ Robert J. Sutherland says at 8:35 pm

    A fair few, Claim of Right Vote unchallenged etc. have already dropped

  155. Capella says:

    @ RJS – there were a few people saying that it was all “politicking” – dadsarmy specifically. But I do think they make a serious point about the democratic franchise and highlight what a rotten borough Westminster is. And it all goes into Hansard.

    In fact, the most eloquent point was made by Jo Swinson when she spoke about how wonderful it was to see young people coming out of class and going to the polling station to cast their votes in Scotland.

    Same with EU nationals having the vote. Tories demanded to know where else in the universe foreigners get to vote. Alison Thewliss pointed out that Scotland was much more democratic than most.

    Never miss an opportunity.

  156. Terry callachan says:

    So Scottish oil is set to last at least until the year 2050

    At least thirty years left

    And England and its insiders in Scotland keep telling us there’s not much left and will be running out soon

  157. Capella says:

    If there was any politicking it was probably in the date. SNP demanded December 9th. Tories insist December 12th. Tories win. Trap closes.

  158. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    So completely wrong at 08:39pm

    The 20 were:

    11 Labour

    3 Change UK

    3 Plaid

    1 Independent from NI

    Caroline Lucas

    Angus Brendan MacNeil

    2 Tellers (so only 18 against)

  159. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker @ 20:41,

    Heh, heh, touché!

    Let’s look forward to a fair few more falling ere lang.

  160. dadsarmy says:

    Both I’d say. Nothing wrong with a bit of brinkmanship politicking all the same, as long as it doesn’t work – the 16/17 and EU which would have meant the TGories killing the bill. So yes, another domino, a just in time domino, if there’s to be time for a possible PV AND Indy Ref 2 in 2020.

    And yes, the SNP would have to support the PV and hope it failed. More damn politicking!

  161. Mist001 says:

    This IS the peoples vote, it’s the closest anyone will get to a second referendum so unless people in rUK are happy with another five years of Tory rule, then it’s time for Remainers and everyone else to step up to the plate and either shit or get off the pot.

    As for us Scots and despite all the SNP criticism, we have no option, we all have to vote SNP.

    Still, I can’t help but think of Iain Blackfords words, that it would be ‘barking mad’ to hold a GE on 12th December. I wonder what he’s thinking now?

  162. mike cassidy says:

    Ian Blackford

    It is up to the Labour Party and others in England and Wales to do their job in defeating the Conservatives. We will do that in Scotland.

    “But the simple fact remains that we cannot sit back and allow this prime minister to take us out of Europe.

    “In Scotland, we have got that alternative if the UK is determined to do that – we have got that insurance policy of being able to have a referendum on independence and making sure that we stay in Europe

  163. mike cassidy says:

    Ian Blackford

    We can’t be held back by Westminster anymore – the SNP will take that message to the public

  164. dadsarmy says:

    OK I guess:

    #GE19 is on and @theSNP is up and running. I’ll be joining @AlynSmith in Stirling tomorrow as we launch our campaign to stop Brexit and demand Scotland’s right to choose independence. Good luck to all our candidates and teams. #voteSNP

    Has to be stop Brexit too I guess to maximise the vote, and put the context to independence. Otherwise as well the LibDems could do the PV thing and steal some vote.

    So yeah, got my support and of course vote.

  165. Daisy Walker says:

    All I want for Christmas is my ain country, my ain country, a Scotland Free
    All I want for Christmas is my ain country, my ain country, a Scotland Free.

    Many happy returns Wings – and thanks for all you do.

    So a GE on 12/12 – and the uni students voting from home – that may actually help us. Quite high proportion of English students at Edinburgh and St Andrews – will need to head home to mummy and daddy’s residencies and vote to keep the wheels on the Brexit bus in the Home Counties.

    Likewise the Greens standing in seats across Scotland – I don’t think this will be an issue. This is going to be about Brexit and Indy all the way, and the MSM is not going to be able to keep Brexit off screen, because the GE plays to an English audience.

    Fingers crossed. Best wishes to all.

  166. dadsarmy says:

    Yeah, reading replies there, I too would be worried about muddying the message and maybe it should be all about Independence. 50-50 the SNP have gamed this thoroughly and know what they’re doing. Shrug.

    Because of Brexit there are previous NO and even current voters want a Ref and I don’t think they know which way they’d vote in it yet.

    But it’s all to play for as they say 🙂

  167. dadsarmy says:

    I’m gonna guess by the way that Joanna Cherry will be another speaker on Saturday.

  168. Cubby says:

    There will be a few Britnat Scots Tories updating their CVs over the next few days. Hopefully my Tory MP Paul “The Geek” Masterton gets the boot back to wherever he came from never to be heard from again.

    Vote SNP for Scottish independence.

  169. mike cassidy says:

    I dedicate the first btl to all the trolls on this site.

  170. Capella says:

    @ dadsarmy – it’s a win-win! Actually, the Tories probably wouldn’t have pulled the election but, no matter. The campaign has begun.

  171. mike cassidy says:


    Your man Masterton has got a voter.


  172. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    dadsarmy @ 21:48,

    But independence is the surest way by far for Scotland to get Remain, so the two messages are perfectly consonant. The FibDem way to a UKOK PV “promised land” just isn’t capable of delivering (another FibCon coalition, this time a Leave-Remain one, anyone?!), though there may well be some disappointed waverers who discover that all too late. (Especially down south where they have little alternative.)

    The one who has the most convincing offer to end the Brexit farrago will win big, I reckon.

    “Vote indy, end Brexit”, two juicy birds with one stone!

  173. Sarah says:

    Rev: many thanks for persevering for 8 years come Thursday with your dissection of the disreputable state of Westminster, the Establishment and the media. And for the Wee Book series.

    You have battled on through some terrible experiences, the worst probably being the seizure of your computers by the Met. The next worst being some of the insensitive and/or unappreciative commenters btl.

    No doubt a medal is being designed as we speak to be awarded to you by the Scottish state idc.

  174. Cubby says:

    GE 2019

    The vote in Scotland has to be unequivocal – AN SNP LANDSLIDE.

    No ifs, no buts, about this that or the other. The only way the Britnats will win is if they convince you not to vote SNP. Vote SNP to return Scotland to its natural state of independence. Vote SNP to bring an end to the horrendous UK and let Scotland flourish.

    Ignore the Doom and gloom merchants that post on Wings.

  175. ElGordo says:

    So Stu,

    I hope the big huff / social engineering experiment / flaming the twats is now over, and you’re happy to be back on track with our lives work.

    A Pee Birdy!

    Welcome home

  176. doug_bryce says:


    If Scotland doesn’t hold firm and return SNP landslide in these circumstances then we really are f–ked.

  177. dadsarmy says:

    It’s pretty convoluted but it’s all been a slow win-win I think, even Angus B McNeil being a rebel rebel. It kind of reminds me for some really weird reason of the Berneray Leverburgh ferry he’d know fine. It zigs, it zags, it zags it zigs, there’s a green a red a green a red, then a green again. Has problems with low tides and even has the odd cancellation, but gets there in the end! And usually with all in the wait Q as well 🙂

  178. ahundredthidiot says:


    ….here son, wi’d ye like tae buy some gunpowder wae yer pocket money?

    gie me a break.

  179. dadsarmy says:

    Even better if somehow some manage to keep the EFTA option open – but Sturgeon did suggest it could be EFTA first so maybe that’s that done. And who knows, Labour might put a CU onto a deal if they get enough in the GE with the “minor” parties to make a confidence and supply government.

  180. Mist001 says:

    I don’t sign petitions as a rule but I broke the rule and signed this one. Would anyone here like to do the same?

  181. dadsarmy says:

    Breaking News:

    UN to send in a humanitarian taskforce after extensive reports of vowel torturing by Jo Swinson.

  182. ElGordo says:

    Establishment pulling out all the stops on newsnight

    Maitlis been double dipped in tea bags tonight

    Not to mention the coife & raptor cheek bones on the kids blood rep

  183. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    This petition is worth a signature too, @ Mist001

  184. ElGordo says:

    Maitlis not even giving us the cheeky golf club committee pleasing orange peel upskirt, must be serious stuff

  185. jockmcx says:

    What do you get when you vote labour?
    Answer– Tories!

    The EX labour voter song…

  186. Effijy says:

    Boris will get a majority with the English vote.
    He will be in power for the next 10 years
    This will make a 20 year span of increasingly fascist Tory Governments.

    When will Scottish Labour voters realise that a vote for Labour gives Scotland
    A Tory government determined to attack and suppress our nation.

  187. call me dave says:

    Guest Nick Downes (Britain Thinks ?) lets cat out the bag there on Radio 5 when he reports back on some things people have said about Brexit but has to quickly correct himself after two examples.

    1. Make ‘England’ great again
    2. United ‘England’….err hmmm!!

    3. Bring the ‘country’ together….. Aye! 🙁

    Obviously never crossed the wall just got as far as the Watford gap!

  188. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    PM BoJo and Deputy PM Faradge (no typo)?

    “The Brexit Party hopes to wipe out Labour’s heartlands in the north east of England and Wales as it prepares to campaign for a ‘clean break Brexit’ – but has left the door open to a pact with the Tories.”

    BoJo denying the Tories will do a deal so that means it will almost certainly happen!

    GSTQ & Her Fascist Regime will be worth a few % points to YES in Indy Ref 2

  189. Kangaroo says:

    Happy Birthday Wings.

    Stu you have done a wonderful job over many years, despite the knockers we are all very grateful for your enterprise and commitment. Congratulations.

  190. Kangaroo says:

    ahunderedthidiot @ 10:39

    Is there a crowdfunder for that?

  191. Mist001 says:

    @ Jockanese Wind Talker

    The link doesn’t work for me. Maybe because I’m outside the UK?

  192. dadsarmy says:

    Good tidings we bring
    To you and your kin;
    An election for Christmas
    Indy ref in the New Year!

    We wish you a merry Brexmas and a happy new Era.

  193. Kangaroo says:

    OK Heres my tuppence worth

    1. GE Tories win on 12th December
    Withdrawal Bill passes in January and the UK is no longer a member state of the EU on 1 February 20.

    2.GE SNP wins Scotland on 12th December
    Referendum Bill passes and receives Royal Assent before end of December.

    3. The Prime Minister is then faced with the having to agree
    a S30 for indyref2 as either
    A) ScotGov goes ahead with indyref2 anyway, or
    B) ScotGov states that the Scottish people voted for the
    UK to Remain and the Sovereign MANDATE must be
    respected therefore the UK Union is dissolved.

  194. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    It’s a link to the petition for “ Official observers from OSCE ODIHR to monitor the next Scottish referendum.” @ Mist001.

  195. mr thms says:

    Professor/Sir John Curtice says the smaller parties will win over 100 seats between them, which will make it difficult for Labour and the Conservatives to win an overall majority government.

  196. manandboy says:


    At the time of the Act of Union in 1707, Scotland’s population was about a million, while England and Wales was about five and a half million. In Union, England and Wales has grown to fifty five and a half million, while Scotland is now 5.3 million.

    In 1707, England was roughly five times larger than Scotland. Today, Scotland is eleven times smaller than England.

    The population of England rose by 27% between 1900 & 1950,
    and by 17% between 1950 and 2000.
    The population of Scotland rose by 12% between 1900 and 1950 and by 1% between 1950 and 2000.

    These figures point clearly to two different democratic trajectories spanning the term of the Union. This was no accident.

    Had Scotland’s population grown at the same rate as England during that period, then the political profile of the UK would not be so heavily weighted in England’s favour.

    And what is happening in Westminster politics today, with Scotland still under English Rule would probably be quite different as well.

    On December 12, Scotland has a chance to do something about that situation.

    Time to get out the smelling salts.

  197. Heart of Galloway says:

    We may not fully appreciate it yet yet, but the coming days and months will determine whether Scotland survives or dies, withers or thrives.

    Much energy – probably far too much – has been spent on here arguing the toss about tactics and strategy. I have been guiltier than most.

    Well, now the die is cast. And all those pent up frustrations that caused so much sniping in the ranks have an outlet at last.

    No-one can gainsayn that the yes movement has been fractious of late.

    Much gnashing of teeth and kicking of heels has accompanied the seemingly interminable inaction.

    The AOUB marches have been hugely important is maintaing motrale and resolve.

    The last in Edinburgh when 200,000 took part was a joyous celebration of the open inclusive independent country Scotland will soon become.

    And now, after what appears with hindsight to be a brilliant piece of political choreography, Nicola Sturgeon will address an independence rally in Freedom Square on Saturday.

    Her speech will come five days after her MPs’ bold move brought a prevaricating Labour Party to the GE table.

    I have no idea what she will tell the tens of thousands present, what words she will choose ot what pledges she will make.

    But one could suppose she will say that the waiting is over.

    That Scotland’s right to choose will not be thwarted.

    That IndyRef will be held in 2020.

    That a yes vote will see Scotland regain her place in the European family of nations – a family from which we have been too long absent.

    That the first step on that journey must be an SNP advance on December 12.

    And that the defeat of Boris Johnson’s Scotland-hating baker’s dozen will be top priority.

    She may say something else if the Referendums (Scotland) Bill has received queen’s assent by that date.

    Something along he lines of the new law putting IndyRef2 beyond legal doubt. And thereby securing international backing.

    This is, of course, pure guesswork.

    Whatever transpires, December 12 happens to be my daughter’s birthday. The day promises to be special in more ways than one for my lassie.

    We have all had our is about to make history

  198. HandandShrimp says:

    Well we are once again off to the polls. Although the Tories lead by a fair bit that may pare back a bit once people take stock of what having Boris in charge for 5 years would actually be like. Curtice could be correct and it could be another hung parliament. If that happens they may start chucking themselves off the top of the EU parliament.

    Boris is not a pleasant man and he bears grudges, can’t see him doing anything for Scotland, Liverpool, in fact anywhere north of Watford. He may sell NI to Trump. If the polls are correct the SNP are going to do a fair but better than 2017. It may be another impressive sweep of the board but as the Tories make a point of ignoring Scotland’s elected representatives winning at Westminster isn’t an end in itself. However,it will be a serious setback to the unionist cause here in Scotland, give Boris little to work with and send a very clear message to the EU.

    There is no credible alternative. Vote SNP.

  199. cynicalHighlander says:

    Heart of Galloway wish your daughter a happy birthday from me.

  200. dadsarmy says:

    If it does go wrong for the Tories I’m not convinced it was a mistake so much as they were trapped and BoJo had no other option because of his over-confident bravado which is really all bluff and bluster.

    And I think that might come out loudly in the GE campaign. Which would all make a hung parliament more likely, but with the DUP not having the balance of power.

  201. jockmcx says:

    A song made for the tory brigade!

  202. Al-Stuart says:


    Just in from work and saw two of your posts on this thread. When you use words such as “spaffing” it simply puts the “scroll past” finger into action. You and I will never agree.

    Some day some bright spark will write his or her Ph.D thesis on the merits/demerits of the BTL world. The fact that 80% of human communication is non-verbal reduces the written narrative here and so often in sinks to casual abuse and gratuitous insults that very few would tolerate face-to-face.

    Mea culpa too. I am not normally so grumpy. But the durge that passes for coherent debate by the diehards is unhelpful in the extreme and escalates the mutual dysfunctionality.

    Stuart Campbell kept me (and a small group of offsite friends engaged). They all got Wee Blue Books for Christmas after Christmas and that really helped. Several YES votes were secured.

    Diehards, be like Stuart!

    I will never vote Labour again. As the mantra goes for so many of us: “Labour left me, I didn’t leave Labour”.

    Now the SNP are leaving me cold.

    DA, do you read the posts that Stuart Campbell writes? If yes, then how can you stand by and let this happen…

    I think a lot of what Stuart terms diehards here maybe need to have a long think. Yes they are 100% right… the 77th Brigade will be on this forum. But SNP people here should know better. They are throwing the baby out with the bath water by assuming every voice that has the audacity to question the SNP deity is an MI5 lurker.

    The resultant, constant abuse gets genuine people who “lent” their votes to the SNP so riled and grumpy that they lose interest.

    Now I routinely scroll by the usual suspects and frankly it is bliss.

    What people like me crave, in order to justify the internal battle of conscience on which party to vote for, many here need some decent quality debate.

    This guy URL linked below has some good points that make those who are impatient with the SNP leadership think maybe there is a Plan that is set to be launched..

    The actions and hallmarks of numerous SNP leader visits to senior EU people (about rejoining he EU) and nuanced consideration of the French buying a big building in Edinburgh for the purposes of an EU consular style office in an Independent Scotland may be circumstantial, but Barrheasboy’s Blog is a 1,000 times better than the dispiriting snide references on here being a tractor (sic) or 77th Brigade plant.

    I wish Stuart Campbell a very happy birthday. His articles, research and logic are impeccable. It is just a crying shame this site has so many supposedly intelligent and honourable diehards letting paranoia grip them so badly.

    That link to Barheadboy had a very good rejoinder to a concern I have. The 600 page document we produced prior to IndyRef1 was abused by Unionists. So SNP leadership being circumspect this time round is kind of canny. When a cogent argument is presented, people that are pro tem SNP voters but suffer the scars of already leaving Labour and are NOT wedded to the SNP appreciate that understanding and quality of debate.

    Unfortunately, the usual suspects here do not get it. So the do an incredible amount of damage.

    Or is the delusion that the SNP ALWAYS had so many members post-2014 without new people from other parties joining up, something that diehards ascribe to?

    Perhaps it would be mutually beneficial if diehard SNP supporters just scrolled past floating voters and Labour voters who have “lent” their vote to the SNP and refrained from offering dogs abuse. The diehards would then do LEAST harm to the Scottish Independence cause,

    I for one am very happy to reciprocate. From now on I will be scrolling past those BTL abusers with alacrity and pleasure

    referenced in the previous thread

  203. Al-Stuart says:

    Dads Army,

    When you write that I am ignorant and deceitful about ATOS + CAPITAL + MAXIMUS, and you go on with the jam-tomorrow hallelujah praise of the Scottish Government treating the disabled with respect, your words ring hollow.

    I prefer facts. Not least but I volunteer at a suicide prevention charity, hence getting home at this ungodly hour.

    DA you are 50 shades of wrong.

    So many of us at the rock face of welfare reform deaths and despair are getting more than a bit cynical about promises that you refer to. Why? Because Jeane Freeman, however well intentioned, is failing to deliver. I may have a harsh view, but you try talking someone down from leaving their life. Night shift after night shift. Time is not our friend. The SNP are procrastinating on SO MANY FRONTS.

    DA, I would be more tolerant of SNP shortcomings, but I saw first hand some of the dodgy things that go on in SNP Branch meetings. Rather that air the details here and ensure MSM have a field day over some disgraceful conduct, I ain’t saying anything here. But Jeezo, people like you wind others up to the stage where it is all too tempting to lift the telephone and speak to a journalist. Do you understand my point? Were I a real tractor, that call and many others about the SNP would have been made ages ago.

    Meanwhile your post above where you call me ignorant and deceitful is all the evidence I need to have your number pal. You are not doing your cause any good at all.

    So welcome to the “scroll-past” list. Like Stu., Campbell’s block-list. Scroll-past list gets rid of unwanted abusers like you. Cheerio James Beck.

  204. Robert Louis says:

    Looking forward to the rally for independence on Saturday in George Square Glasgow, even more now.

    Looking forward to hear what the FM will say.

    Provided indy is right up on the list for the SNP at this election, we need to get right behind them, today. Let’s start attacking our REAL enemies. I’ve posted many times here, heavily criticising the SNP strategy, and whilst not totally happy, I for one will be backing them all the way to the ballot box at the election.

    No other option is better for Scotland. It must be SNP. (I am assuming they will not let us down on the indy thing this time in the manifesto and campaign).

    Indy is now the only way to stop Scotland getting dragged out of the EU against its wishes.

  205. Robert Louis says:

    Let’s get rid of every single Tory MP in Scotland.

  206. Robert Louis says:

    I mean via votes, in case anybody gets worried. 🙂

  207. Effijy says:

    BBC Breakfast TV at it as usual- discussing Tories, Labour, Liberals, Plaid and the Green’s place in the election.

    Anyone missing?


    I’m not following why the 12th has been agreed when SNP and Libs wanted the 9th.

  208. Effijy says:

    Be clear the Scottish NHS is the best performing in the UK by a mile.

    With the many remote rural areas to support and our history of poor diet and
    Alcohol abuse and £2 Billion of our budget cut by Westminster.

    Are you stupid enough to think SNP officials designed ventilation systems for hospitals,
    Do you think they acted as the Clerk of Works.

    Approved Architects and proven contractors where employed by the approved means and in every
    Major project of magnitude some part goes wrong and a fix is required.

    With regard I won’t tell you why SNP is bad, I’d be happy to spend a few hours telling you why the Westminster parties are industrial strength BAD for Scotland for centuries!

  209. Gordon says:

    Everybody now wants to vote for SNP after spending years criticising them. Some people will have to eat porridge when they help deliver Independence.

  210. Joe says:

    From a majority of Scottish seats with a cast iron mandate down to this witheringly unrealistic long shot with 9 potentially fatal pitfalls.

    Sorry folks but the Torys are no longer the political party most in the way of Scottish independence.

  211. Breeks says:

    Al-Stuart says:
    30 October, 2019 at 4:10 am

    This guy URL linked below has some good points that make those who are impatient with the SNP leadership think maybe there is a Plan that is set to be launched..

    I agree with most of that article, up until the end.

    I won’t rehash the issue of sovereignty yet again, people are tired of it, but I would point out there are two ways to damage and undermine Scotland’s Constitutional strength and sovereignty;

    The first route to misfortune is to acquiesce with our subjugation. If a thing is unlawful, you have to overturn it in law until what’s right prevails. If we don’t even respect our own Constitution, then who else on the planet do we think inexplicably will?

    The second route to misfortune is to undermine popular support for a Constitutional route out of the Union by springing it on people like a rabbit pulled out of a hat. If you don’t want the action ridiculed as a stunt of desperate last resort, I believe you have to be up front about the issue, and proceed surefooted along the route of red lines and ultimatums, where every decision Westminster makes is ruthlessly scrutinised and pilloried for any infraction of Scotland’s inviolable Constitutional Rights and ultimate sovereignty. Eventually, you reach a fork in the road where Westminster goes one way and Scotland goes the opposite way, and the Union simply cannot survive the stress of two sovereign components moving in opposite direction.

    That is why I regularly give the SNP both barrels. First barrel for not defending Scotland’s Constitution, and if, as seems likely, we will end up in a Constitutional Court Room, the second barrel is for the wholly unnecessary obfuscation about the Constitutional arguments and principles which we will in due course be relying upon.

    Westminster can rewrite the law at will, and lie through it’s teeth with impunity, but they cannot overrule Scotland’s Sovereignty. They will however fight us all the way until that ultimate and definitive Constitutional showdown, and even then chance their luck on a last throw of any dice they get their hands on.

    Brexit took us right to that crossroads, where the Union was cleft between one sovereign component which chose Remain, and the second sovereign component chose Leave, and the Union was left hanging by a thread. Instead of standing firm behind our Sovereignty and choice to remain, we stuck our tail between our legs and started to follow “their” road to Brexit. Disaster. WTF???

    At this stage of proceedings, every man, woman and child in Scotland should know the Constitutional issues at play here, and both Yesser and Unionist be fully conversant with the facts, not the fiction. When Westminster is thus given a red line ultimatum to turn back from Brexit or destroy the Union, then both Yesser and Unionist alike understand the chain reaction that follows.

    Instead, the way we have “played” our hand will see our Constitutional trump card berated as a trick card or slight of hand cheat. We should NOT have come this way.

    The demise of this Union is conflated into the myth like-rebirth of a whole Nation like some Phoenix from the ashes, but It isn’t. It’s simply the prosaic and humdrum ending of a Treaty of Union that has for too long been a stranger to justice and equity.

    I hope Nicola does raise the tempo in Glasgow, but for me, I expect another tribute act to Theresa May.. the auspicious press conference and tense media event, just to deliver the same rehash of the same tired old damp squib. I hope I’m wrong, but we’ll know soon enough.

  212. Capella says:

    Just listened to R4 summary of the election. A word from the Tories, Labour and Jo Swinson. No SNP. I think that will be the model for the campaign. So we will be relying on the street campaigning and online.

  213. Richardinho says:

    Predictions: Tory voter to return to the fold giving Boris a huge majority. SNP do well in Scotland taking all but one seat (Carmichael natch.). Media announces end of SNP honeymoon. Boris announces to huge cheers from Labour benches that he’ll never grant a section 30 order and a raft of powers he intends to take back from Holyrood. Sturgeon makes withering speech denouncing this as ‘unacceptable’.

    Please someone tell me how I’m wrong?

  214. Sinky says:

    Call Kaye on General Election at nine o clock

    Sms 80295



    Twitter @bbcradioscot


    On Radio Scotland GMS just now Labour and Tory commentators discussing general election and Labour guy has a dig at SNP who have no representative. This is meant tobe Scotland;s window on the world not London Centric as we get enough of that on all the other BBC, Sky and ITV channels

  215. Swami Backverandah says:

    Happy Birthday Wings, and well done Rev.
    Kudos to your cunning plan.
    First rule of warfare. Create a diversion.
    Well done.

  216. Capella says:

    Still listening to R4 Tory festival of elections – new concept (invented by some Tory Lord O’Shaunessy?) “Workington Man” – ex Labour, can’t vote Tory – so Nick Robinson suggests Brexit – Yes! says Workington Man.

    Now he has Douglas Alexander to discuss the revival of the Labour vote, but not in Scotland, of course.

    I won’t bother listening again to this except for research purposes. OFCOM will be stepping in to enforce balance any minute now.

  217. chicmac says:

    Altogether now (with apologies to Perry7 Como).

    It’s a Tory.

    When there’s no reason why
    But you still need to lie
    You’re a Tory
    When the World seems to whine
    Just cos you say ‘it’s all mine!’
    You’re a Tory

    Bells’ll ring
    To wake you for voting
    We’ll all pay
    For you’re Eton boating.

    When gold bars make you drool
    Like a silly old fool
    You’re a Tory
    When you walk down the street
    You tell crowds that you meet, they’re all plebs
    When you’re out in a scheme
    and pretend its a dream to, ignoray
    Then take a train, while not payin’
    Back to toffland again, you’re a Tory.

    When there’s no reason why
    But they still need to lie
    They’re a Tory
    Red, Yellow or Blue
    Or the UKIP ones too
    They’re a Tory

    Tills’ll ring
    When they claim their expenses
    We’ll all pay
    Really-need tae-pay
    For all their offenses.

    When the ermine calls them
    Whether SLAB or Libem
    They’re a Tory
    Or they preach in the street
    Telling crowds that they meet, ‘tough luck plebs’
    Or if someone shouts ‘Scam!’
    They just take a dram and ignoray
    On a train or a plane,
    Back to Troughland again, they’re a Tory.

  218. Swami Backverandah says:

    Workington Man?

    Wokeington Man prefers Independence for Scotland.

  219. Dorothy Devine says:

    Because yet another Conservative , Piri Patel’s researcher , has been escorted by police from the pub in Westminster , I was reminded of a Scottish Con MP being escorted – so I googled .

    Now usually when one googles a whole list of newspaper comment appears as well as Wiki but in this case not a whisper.
    How peculiar thought I, whitewash in lengthy widths.

  220. Cubby says:

    Britnats are baaaaaaad.

    Well if all these other so called independence supporters can post SNP Baaad all the time.

    Phoney independence supporters are on Wings and they are baaaad.

  221. Shug says:

    Well call Kaye must be on steroids this morning:

    Scottish votes don’t count in brexit it was a uk vote
    Scottish votes don’t count in Westminster
    A nice selection of wise words from down south
    A few brexit votes from the north east

    Don’t ya luv the bbc

  222. Shug says:

    Now we have an Indian voice not wanting Indy!!!!!

    Have now switched her off

    Time for the snp to win all seats, call indyref 2 and move forward

  223. galamcennalath says:

    A GE has been called in which it is absolutely essential for the Indy cause that the SNP do well.

    I for one will be out there campaigning relentlessly. I have misgivings, but the immediate necessity is working to remove BritNat MPs. For other Indy supporters with misgivings this is the time to hold your nose, bite your tongue, and make it happen.

    It’s suddenly become much easier on WoS comments to differentiate between those offering well-meant criticism and those BritNat trolls determined to undermine the cause.

  224. Arajag says:

    Rev Stu Writes:
    (This will have to be swallowed rapidly by all the SNP diehards who’ve spent most of the last month screaming at us that under no circumstances could the party ever vote with the Tories to get what they want because it would be political suicide.)

    Are you going to swallow rapidly now we know the SNP abstained and one voted against?

  225. Hamerdoon says:

    Breeks – this.

    We should have had this fundamental position laid out long ago.

  226. bittie45 says:

    Aye, Shug.

    Also heard that muck this morning. Turned off in disgust.

  227. bittie45 says:

    My last comment referring to Shug at 9:20!

  228. Old Pete says:

    We all have to get behind the SNP now. If the SNP could poll over 50% then they can surely start the process of breaking up this vile UK state. So Nicola big speech coming up on Saturday, we have an opportunity we juxt have to take it.

  229. Capella says:

    Vote SNP to get independence. Vote YES to never have to listen to the BBC again. A winning formula.

  230. Old Pete says:

    We all have to get behind the SNP now. If the SNP could poll over 50% then they can surely start the process of breaking up this vile UK state. So Nicola big speech coming up on Saturday, we have an opportunity we just have to take it.
    Latest polling looks good but we have to get the vote out so Independence front and centre and the rest will follow.

  231. Willie says:

    Let’s make this our independence referendum.

    A simple majority of MPs voting with minority Prime Minister Johnson could have dragged us out of Europe.

    So why then did 56 out of 59 not allow us to move forward. Or even 35 out of 59. Like a beaten cur we seem to just take our beatings, year after year, Parliament after Parliament. And it post Brexit will get worse.

    Thatcher said that if Scotland returned a majority of its MPs for independence then Scotland should have it. Just like Brexit in fact.

    Time therefore to make this our mandate for Independence.

  232. Old Pete says:

    Totally agree Willie, now IS the time.

  233. Cubby says:

    Vote SNP then yes for independence and then we put an end to the Britnat media. Most of these propaganda writers/broadcasters will probably be on the first flight to London to join Neil, Marr, Yoonsberg and Torrance begging for a job.

  234. HandandShrimp says:

    Well the Herald readership are on board if the Herald poll is anything to go by. 57.5% for the SNP 7% for Labour. It isn’t a representative demographic but it has unionist gums champing 🙂

  235. Capella says:

    Reading Yesindyref2 links from Hackalumpoff 9.06 – thx – and see that the advocate general for Scotland (i.e.Westminster’s man), Richard Keen, was in breach of the firearms act. Hauled up by the Bar Standards Board but not guilty of professional misconduct.

  236. galamcennalath says:

    I really do hope this is the last UK general election, ever.

  237. jockmcx says:

    I’ts yesXmas time,yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

  238. callmedave says:


    Aye I read that and The National carrying it too on page 10.
    Fined a £1000. Neighbour reported possible burglary in his property while he was away. Police entered and found the gun 12 gauge out of the safe in a canvas bag. 🙁


    I also heard on the same site Prof Curtis on LBC radio predicting the ‘smaller parties’ getting a probable 100 seats in the GE and so a hung parliament is a good bet.

  239. Andy Hay says:

    I Love how ‘Call UKaye assumed the first caller was a LayBuhhrrr voter.

    I detest that hag.

  240. dadsarmy says:

    Herald poll worth a direct link:

    In a poll of over 1,000 of its readership, as well as the 57.57% voting SNP, there’s 85% Remain removing undecideds, and 66% YES to Independence removing the undecided.

    That’ll be a YES then!

  241. Clapper57 says:

    I heard Sir Ian Wood was gonna be on BBC Debate night tonight….oil running out y’know.

    Brass neck much …will someone just someone cast up his way off ‘predictions’ on oil pre 2014 Indy Ref….I say predictions obvs mean LIES.

  242. dadsarmy says:

    I suspect part of the reason the Herald readers so overwhelmingly back Independence is the posters below the line on forums, no, not so much the pro-indy ones as the rabid anti-ones. Similar for the green ink brigade – keep the posts and letters coming! But we do have to pick them up when they talk garbage, as calmly and politely as we can.

    We’re winning.

  243. Clapper57 says:

    Female deputy speaker got in a bit of a mess last night and Bercow had to come back and take over….

    Guess who is Ross Thomson’s candidate choice for new speaker..

    Lol……yep ….the above lady.

    Judgement…Judgement….why have thou forsaken me….Lol

  244. Clapper57 says:

    Oh I was referring to Eleanor laing…the female deputy speaker in my above post @ 11.42am….Lol

  245. callmedave says:


    Aye I noticed she was struggling with the protocols but the help was there from the anonymous clerks in the front then Bercow was ushered into the chair.

    Mind you I wont miss him at all if WM is no longer part of our Independent Scotland.

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