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Three days in politics

Posted on October 27, 2019 by

It’s a long time, apparently. Because while a general election on 12 December would be a “barking mad” idea according to the SNP’s Westminster leader Ian Blackford on Thursday, having one on 9 December instead is genius.

So in a month in which this site has been extensively screamed at by SNP diehards as the work of a “traitor” and an “MI5 plant” for suggesting that maybe the SNP could vote with the Tories (or perhaps just abstain) to let Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal go through in exchange for a second indyref, the official SNP plan is to now vote with the Tories to give them the election Boris Johnson has been trying to call for weeks – which all polls suggest he’d win, allowing him to enact any sort of Brexit he wants – but to cleverly NOT get a second indyref out of it.

Y’know what, folks, we can’t even be bothered.

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    1. 27 10 19 13:56

      Three days in politics | speymouth

    331 to “Three days in politics”

    1. Lollysmum says:

      I know how you feel Stuart 🙁

    2. Andrew Parker says:

      Fair comment – we should’ve voted thrpugh May’s bill 2nd or 3rd time round, England /Wales would have what they voted for and we’d be halfway to (an effectively borderless) Indy by now.

    3. Gavin Barrie says:

      same here Stuart ;-(

    4. Jon Drummond says:

      The cherry on the empire biscuit is Nicola Sturgeon’s rallying cry for Indy Ref 2 next weekend.

      Couldnae script it…

    5. Lenny Hartley says:

      I can only assume tha5 the SNP have a cunn8ng plan to get a section 30, probably the courts but if they had listened to you three years ago !!

    6. bobajock says:

      Deal with Tories? Ar you kidding, this is the worst, most duplicitous UK Gov ever.

      Noone can trust them.

    7. Bob Mack says:

      I know Stu. I know. (Shrugs shoulders).

    8. Scott Borthwick says:

      Yep. SNP seem lost.

      Happy birthday. Away and enjoy yourself. Sadly, this crapola will all still be here when you get back.

    9. cctxt says:

      ditto

    10. AuldAlliance says:

      There’s no way the Tories would offer an indyref2 exchange.

    11. Garrion says:

      Me three

    12. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “Deal with Tories? Ar you kidding, this is the worst, most duplicitous UK Gov ever.”

      “…so let’s just give them what they want for free.”

      FFS.

    13. Bob Mack says:

      The only thing I can think of Stu is it being an attempt to embarrass Labour. That is the only thing I can fathom.

    14. Robert Louis says:

      Just games and chicanery, which is typical of Westminster. The SNP should be having nothing to do with any of these games and nonsense. They should be standing back, merely pointing out that Scotland voted against brexit.

      THIS is what happens when SNP MP’s are down in London too Long, they lose perspective on what matters. They start to think that their game play and pseudo negotiations (in whcih the SNP gain nothing) are somehow ‘making a difference’.

      It’s about independence. England can do whatever kind of mad brexit stupidity it wants, Scotland wants to have nothing to do with it. The SNP need to focus on SCOTLAND and delivering on what SCOTLAND wants. England voted for brexit, that is their choice, Scotland wants to stay in the EU. THAT is their mandate, nothing else.

    15. Col.Blimp IV says:

      How does a Bill that subverts the fixed term parliament rule without a 2/3 majority work?

      Would the Tories vote for a No-Confidence in themselves motion?

      Will the Labour Party vote for their own oblivion?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaNWYHmUvI

    16. Mist001 says:

      Sturgeon and the SNP are no more than regional administrators who have been found out. As is shown on an almost daily basis, they’re completely inept when it comes to playing with the big boys at politics. Everyone runs rings around them.

      Maybe there really isn’t a ‘plan B’ because there wasn’t even a plan A in the first place apart from telling the cybernats that ‘independence is coming’ so as to ensure the money keeps coming in and the gullible will vote for them.

      I find myself constantly thinking about some Tory MP who during the 2014 referendum said about the SNP; ‘By the time we’re finished with them, they be lucky to hold a meeting in a room above a pub’.

      How I laughed at the time but the guy seems to be right!

    17. mike cassidy says:

      Is it a serious offer?

      Or are they just trolling Posh Boy?

      Cos he seems to be wallowing in the trough of

      Look they won’t give you the people a GE.

      Or maybe they’re trolling Corbyn as well.

      Anyway you lie down Stu in prep for your team lying down to Celtic!

    18. Josef Ó Luain says:

      The people you refer to as “diehards” will always and forever be incapable of seeing beyond their calcified thinking and positions.

    19. Capella says:

      Do you think an SNP victory Scotland and a Tory victory in England might be the best backdrop for Indyref2 with the added bonus of delaying a no deal cliff edge?

      I’m assuming the SNP leadership believe they can get a s30 even if they have to go to court for it.

    20. Breeks says:

      Hey, I’ve just had a great idea!

      No, it’s not the same thing I’ve been banging on about since the Ice Age. It’s a subtly different plan.

      Just for giggles. Why don’t we pretend we’re a sovereign country, and pretend we can revoke Article 50 unilaterally, and then pass the time waiting for an election by having a massive acrimonious bun fight over constitutional sovereignty, and finding ourselves already independent by polling day?

      Wouldn’t that be nice surprise for our Government? (Better sign the warranty and tear up the receipt so they can’t take it back to the shop and change it for something else…)

      Then we can all spend a relaxing family Christmas in Europe…

    21. Effijy says:

      FFS?

    22. J Galt says:

      The 12th of December in Scotland might not be that different from the 12th of June – we don’t live in Siberia – so yes a bizarre statement from Blackford.

    23. Bob Mack says:

      @Capella,

      Peter Bell deals with exactly this in his blog in the link from Ian Brotherhood.

    24. Sharny Dubs says:

      Sigh

      Used to be I pledged support for the SNP as the only vehicle that can deliver independence despite their many faults, but with each passing day!!!!

    25. jimnarlene says:

      Playing Westminster politics is a game we’ll never win.

    26. Ruglonian says:

      *checks SNP’s blind faith robots for malfunction, sees none, despairs*

    27. Col.Blimp IV says:

      bobajock says:
      27 October, 2019 at 12:04 pm

      “Ar you kidding, this is the worst, most duplicitous UK Gov ever.”
      ” Noone can trust them.”

      I don’t doubt that for one minute … just take a look at the guy FFS.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cly_2pGTNw

    28. gardennat says:

      I have been an avid reader,and funder, of this site for over six years. I have also been a member of the SNP for over fifty years.
      It looks as though I am going to have to choose where my loyalties lie.
      I don’t think there is anything on this site for me anymore. Bye!

    29. Ahundredthidiot says:

      Maybe we dont want independence….just to moan all day about the terrible tories.

      I think it was Jefferson who said it was the pursuit of happyness that was most important…..

      Scots happy with their lot, whinging all day about hard done to they are, embarass me….they are losers.

      Securing Scotlands independence was always going to involve getting our hands dirty.

      Perhaps my Party just dont get it.

    30. HandandShrimp says:

      Thought the SNP position was to call it for the 5th rather than the 12th to ensure students could vote and to avoid the Xmas parties. The 9th is a Monday. Is that a Lib Dem idea?

      In other news I see Aberdeen host Celtic. Celtic may have said hold my beer to Leicester but I’m not sure they need anyone to hold the beer.

    31. Cubby says:

      “Y’ know what folks we can’t even be bothered.”

      Well sadly that has been obvious for some time now. However, the Cairnstoons are still excellent though.

      ” the official SNP plan is to now vote with the Tories to give them the election……”

      I doubt you are party to what the SNP plan is assuming they have a plan at all.

      Your posts are now like a Party Leader in a political party attacking the main political party in Scotland.

      BTL is now more and more becoming a home for only the ultra loyal Wingers and phoney independence supporters who are delighted about the continual criticism of the SNP.

    32. Ahundredthidiot says:

      gardennat

      I dont believe you….you’re a plant.

      good bye.

      and if you come back, you will have proved me right.

    33. galamcennalath says:

      A single issue general election is a bad idea. Folks should be considering a range of policies and manifestos. Why? Simple – in the UK the dreadful FPTP system will deliver a ‘winner’ on as little as 35%. So, if Johnson has his GE he probably gets an overwhelming majority to change the fundamental makeup of the UK with minority backing.

      The flip side is the SNP could also do well out of a GE right now.

      The question really is, how do the SNP plan to capitalise on a landslide while London is in the grip of the mad bad far right?

    34. Bob Mack says:

      @Gardennat,

      Sorry friend, but burying our head in the sand to avoid seeing hearing or reading about problems is not the way to go. Dont do that.

    35. Republicofscotland says:

      Is there any indication that the SNP asked Johnson for the right to hold a second indyref in return for backing a GE? Is it possible its being kept quiet for now?

      Or are the SNP just missing the big picture, (deliberately or not)and hoping only to do well in Scotland?

      The latter (returning possibly 50 MPs to Westminster) won’t really help obtain independence. In reality they have no real clout in the HoC.

    36. Ahundredthidiot says:

      I will be going to George Sq next Saturday.

      My whole families SNP membership is on the line (double figures)…NS better have something to offer or our flag will be leaving the field. We’re not there for a fucking day out.

      we will never vote No and breaking ties with the SNP will be hard as none of us have ever voted for any other Party.

      That is where we are at folks…..some people need to fucking wake up.

    37. Capella says:

      @ Bob Mack – well I’ve now read Peter Bell’s article and find it riddled with logical errors. He might as well have written one sentence: I don’t like Nicola Sturgeon. That would have been shorter and wasted less time.

      Like Peter Bell and many others, I don’t have access to the SNPs inner strategy. But I do give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are working to a plan. I can only guess at the outlines.

      Polls suggest that the SNP will wipe the board in Scotland and the Conservatives in England. Let’s see what happens now and how much cold water the BBC pours on this idea. That will be a difficult thing to do while promoting the Tories election dash. I wonder how they will manage it.

    38. Colin Alexander says:

      Are the SNP competing with you Stu?

      Stu: SNP tactics are rubbish.

      SNP: You think that’s bad? Look! This is even worse.

    39. kapelmeister says:

      The SNP can get an indyref out of Johnson much more easily by withholding Holyrood’s consent over the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.

      A good election first, with the SNP gaining 14 to 18 seats from the red and blue Britnats, then, from that strong position, if the Tories are still in power, refuse consent to WAB.

    40. Street Andrew says:

      Oh dear. Independence is fucked, then ?

      Let’s all lie down and die in a ditch with Boris.

      When we wake up we’ll realise it’s all just been a bad dream.

    41. mr thms says:

      Macron is waiting on the UK to provide the reason for their request for an extension and if he does not get one the UK will leave the EU at 11:00 pm on 31st October.

    42. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ahundredthidiot

      Re garennat

      I doubt if anyone who joined the SNP in the 60’s, doesn’t see distention about the notions presented by some the SNP’s “I’m not a Nationalist…but only Independence will deliver us to The Trendy Lefty middle-class intellectual Nirvana”, types.

      As a long-overdue breath of fresh air – One can only bite one’s tongue in the name of party unity, for so long.

    43. Breeks says:


      mr thms says:
      27 October, 2019 at 1:10 pm
      Macron is waiting on the UK to provide the reason for their request for an extension and if he does not get one the UK will leave the EU at 11:00 pm on 31st October.

      Correct. 4 days time, Thursday, and there are 27 wildcards with a veto, all on a default leave option if there’s no consensus.

      Part of me hopes there’s no extension, and revocation of Article 50 becomes an emergency option we are compelled to attempt, unilaterally, on Wednesday, or Thursday at the latest, and hopefully justify our sovereign prerogative to the ECJ retrospectively.

    44. Bob Mack says:

      @Street Andrew,

      No ,indy is not fecked. The road to it is just not clear.

    45. McDuff says:

      Some of us have been warning for some about the SNP’s lack of direction and passion and have been labelled trolls as a result.
      The party is in a rudderless boat without a compass crewed by lethargic and inert individuals. We are talking about independence for our country but there is no fire of inspiration.

    46. Mist001 says:

      @ McDuff

      Exactly right.

    47. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Ahundredthidiot says:
      27 October, 2019 at 12:56 pm

      “I will be going to George Sq next Saturday.”

      Yeah me too, the first time I will be getting up of my fat arse for Scotland in a long while … Let’s hope Nicola’s speech will be worth price of the train fare.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaDBET0oij8

    48. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “I doubt you are party to what the SNP plan is assuming they have a plan at all.”

      They literally just said what their plan was.

    49. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

      “The SNP can get an indyref out of Johnson much more easily by withholding Holyrood’s consent over the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.”

      Jesus.

    50. Bob Mack says:

      Now we can have a real good guess at why the Tories have put a load of civil servants into The Scottish Office.

      They are actively planning to run most of Scotlands business,regardless of Holyrood after Scotland failing to stop Brexit. We have been fighting against our own interests trying to save all the UK.

      Bacm to the drawing board.

    51. mr thms says:

      UK preparations for Brexit includes the opening of the first Brexit Transport Information Point for hauliers.. in Belgium.

      https://mobile.twitter.com/UKinBelgium/status/1186987898480058368

    52. Golfnut says:

      Last GE the SNP had little time to advocate policy regarding Westminster, instead they were hammered continually on perceived nonsensical failures in performance as the Scottish Government at Holyrood. Maybe they will have learned from that and have nothing in their manifesto relating to what they will do at Westminster, only Holyrood, independence, sovereignty of the people and power. Just a thought. Maybe we should wait and see the contents of the manifesto, rather than ridicule the date of the GE which may serve to keep us temporarily in the EU for a little longer.

    53. velofello says:

      Johnson will play with a S30 request like a cat with a mouse.Don’t afford him the opportunity. Just get on and hold one. Legal? Are we really concerned that Johnson and his cronies will question/challenge it’s legality? The world witnesses the treatment of our MPs at Westminster.

      The SNP should declare that voting for the SNP in the general election is further endorsement of the mandate to commence independence negotiations with the UK.

      The inactivity of the SNP troubles me. Where are the follow leaflets following their conference that explains and gives credence to the promises made? Blink and you’d have missed TV coverage so just what %age of the population are aware of the promises made?

    54. lumilumi says:

      kapelmeister says:
      27 October, 2019 at 1:08 pm

      The SNP can get an indyref out of Johnson much more easily by withholding Holyrood’s consent over the Withdrawal Agreement Bill.

      A good election first, with the SNP gaining 14 to 18 seats from the red and blue Britnats, then, from that strong position, if the Tories are still in power, refuse consent to WAB.

      I have a palace in Valyria I’d like to sell you.

      Why would Johnson, with a strong majority in Westminster, give a diddy about what the piddy little provincial council in Holyrood says?

      PM Johnson will, at best, ignore Holyrood (like the WM government have done before), at worst, shut down Holyrood “temporarily, in the national interest” or some such, and govern Scotland through the new, expanded Scotland Office. (See: NI)

      Of course it’s wrong and a democratic outrage, but what can you do? The EU or the UN won’t interfere in the UK’s internal affairs (see: Catalonia).

    55. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Stu.,

      You summaries the word oxymoron brilliantly.

      How can the SNP commits political suicide so easily, and for free. At least Arlene and the DUP got £1 billion before the Tories threw them under a bus. Ian Blackford is throwing himself under the big red London Bus to save Boris the bother.

      Ian Blackford is a very intelligent man and a passionate political speaker, but how or why is he walking into a bear trap with Jo Deputy PM Swinson?

      And for nothing other than to land us all with 5 years of Boris Johnson as Prime Minister and the cripple-killing Tories.

      The SNP high command have utterly lost the plot and the SNP diehards are screaming at this website instead of shouting at their MPs and MSPs. At EVERY constituency SNP branch meeting.

      That’s me done, at least for now. I “lent” the SNP my vote so they would use it intelligently. Am not voting SNP for a while, and NOT voting for the other parties either.

      Stu., if you establish a YES Party, you have my vote, but the SNP will need to stop Kamikazi Blackford from killing of Scottish Independence. The 56, no sorry, we lost a lot of SNP MPs in 2017 and Nicola + Ian didn’t notice… the 35 SNP MPs will dwindle back down to 12 again. Political kharma. But why?

      Apart from Ian Blackford killing off IndyRef2, there was something interesting about democracy on CLICK this morning. Stuart, it might be of interest to you as it is a high tech and software based thing being beta tested on small laws just now, but strangely… uniquely it seems to be helping get rid of political crap and helping the electorate help their politicians to make good laws.

      Better reading about that thank Ian Blackford selling out Scottish Independence for fcuk all. Someone maybe go sell him magic beans for his beanstalk adventure.

    56. Balaaargh says:

      If Ian Blackford were my MP, I’d be at the branch meetings calling for him to be deselected.

      A GE will deliver a Tory majority regardless of how it manages to get called. As much as I didn’t want to trust the Tories to deliver an S30, this idea is even worse.

    57. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      P.S.

      Stu.,

      Here is that link to the AI effort to help the electorate help their politicians make better laws.

      It is on beta test just now with some small statutes, but the results are fascinating…

      https://tinyurl.com/Troll-Proofing-Democracy

    58. ScotsRenewables says:

      Ahundredthidiot says:
      27 October, 2019 at 12:41 pm

      “Maybe we dont want independence….just to moan all day about the terrible SNP”

      There, fixed that for you.

    59. kapelmeister says:

      Lumilumi

      Supposing Johnson had the nerve and the support of his party and the civil service to shut down Holyrood, such an action would be a force magnifier for Yes. Pro-devo unionists would detect to Yes in significant numbers.

    60. ScotsRenewables says:

      For those who don’t understand why the slightly earlier date is important, have a look at this New Statesman article:

      https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/10/liberal-democrats-and-snp-have-plan-9-december-election-will-it-work

    61. Bob Mack says:

      @Kapelmeister,

      We can have the whole of Scotlands population and then what?

      You stil! need a route to Independence before the Tories and Westminster close them al! down.

    62. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Aye, Stu.,

      Happy Birthday to your good self.

      May your birthday present be the SNP HQ reading Wings and deciding to extract a permanent transfer of the Section 30 Order from Westminster control to Holyrood.

      And all those SNP diehards here, if you truly believe in Scottish Independence, please get your erses down to your constituency branches REQUIRE your MP to attend and MANDATE them to listen to you and extract a PERMANENT SECTION 30 ORDER TRANSFER TO HOLYROOD by including it in that effing amendment Ian Blackford and his mad seagull friend is proposing.

      Many happy returns Stu.,

      P.S. I feel guilty for not buying you a present when you just sent me my clever wee WOS fundraiser gift. A smart metal McSwiss knife credit card thingy. Excellent.

    63. Breeks says:

      The thing is, because the SNP doesn’t fully embrace the Constitutional argument, it makes the purely democratic argument phenomenally difficult to win. You’re playing a game where your opponent can, and does, rewrite the rules for you, and ignore the rules himself. That’s not the Arthurian quest for the holy grail and gold standard democracy, it’s plain stupid.

      I fail to understand why the SNP insists on making life difficult, when Scotland’s Constitutional Sovereignty is right there in your grasp and at your disposal. Full marks for dedication and perseverance, and I don’t mean that flippantly, because Westminster must be royally unpleasant, but “now” would be a really good time to start actually winning this Constitutional stand-off, BEFORE we suffer the impact of Brexit.

      If Brexit was democratic issue to resolve, you’d probably want an organisation like the SNP to vote for. But as I’ve said, the Democratic component of Brexit ended in 2016 and gave us exactly what we wanted, and from that day to this, we’ve been floundering to make our mandate hold water. It’s not a democratic deficit which stymies us, but a constitutional deficit, where our democracy is not respected as sovereign.

      Ian Blackford MUST stand his ground and be good for his word… Scotland will NOT be removed from Europe against it’s will.

    64. kapelmeister says:

      Bob Mack

      “You still need a route to independence”.

      The way to independence isn’t a road. It’s a battle of manouevre.

    65. msean says:

      I don’t know (lol) but it seems to me that there are English voters who don’t want Scotland,most seem to be Brexit party customers.

      Top Tip:Why not give them an SNP candidate to vote for in the brexity constituencies,see if they really mean it. 🙂

    66. yesindyref2 says:

      Politician says something different 3 days later, surprise!

    67. Bob Mack says:

      @Kapelmeister,

      What does that even mean ? Sounds very pedantic.

    68. Joe says:

      Look on the bright side – at least you see it. There’s some people who have forgotten that Scottish Independence is a concept and not a party or political leaning.

      The situation is this – the Union needs Scotland, not just because it wouldnt be ‘the Union’ anymore but purely economic reasons. Ive never heard of 5 million ordinary people just walking away from the result of a referendum with 1 trillion+ of oil and gas, endless potential in renewables, water and thats just the energy/commodities. In fact the UK would be a far more democratic place than we give it credit for if they DID allow that to happen.

      So the UK needs Scotland.

      The EU in turn needs the UK to stay in the EU. There isnt a situation where the UK leaves the EU and it not pose very large (lethal) problems for the EU in its current state.

      Firstly – any tariffs the EU imposes on the UK will be mirrored by the UK. This means access to the 6th largest economy in the world, just off the EU shore will be more expensive. The EU (whether you believe this or not) is in a very weak economic position and that is an understatement. We have had the longest period of economic growth in history and euro interest rates stayed at zero. German Bunds well below 0. The ECB stopped quantitative easing at the beginning of this year and have restarted it. The European banking sectors market cap is 3x euro GDP. Compare this to an almost 1 to 1 for the US. Deutsche Bank produced a report calling for restructuring of the EU banking sector to help mitigate potential problems but the truth is European banks are not in a healthy position. German autos have done very poorly and given their portion of German GDP they simply cant afford to have high tariffs on their UK exports.

      Second – a hard Brexit and a lowering of taxes on corporations (before you scream just remember Ireland and Sweden have lower corporate tax rates than the UK) would mean that the UK would be on the receiving end of serious foreign investment. Im not saying this would be a good or bad thing for ordinary people. Just that its a high likelihood.

      Third – if the EU does decide to play nice and allow the kind of trade options that dont hinder UK and EU businesses then the rest of the EU, under the restrictive single currency, taxes and regulations will wonder what the point is. Nationalist parties across the EU are making big gains already.

      In short – the future of the EU after Brexit is to either seriously reform and allow more autonomy to individual economies or to fail entirely. Scotland is one of the main negotiating points for the EU – there is a pro EU democratic mandate and Britain needs Scotland.

      With all this (and more that I cant be bothered typing) the SNP has and will continue to work for EU and not the Scottish people. If you look at it through the lens of ‘keeping the UK in the EU at all costs’ then their behavior makes much more sense than the pretend ‘representatives of Scotland seeking independence for Scotland’.

      Im not pretending here that the UK will be peaches and cream in the immediate aftermath of a proper Brexit, but it is very often overlooked what the situation is for the EU.

      This, if you are cynical enough, is fair explanation for why certain parties act the way they do.

    69. Bob Mack says:

      Case in point. Why the hell are we concerned about forming alliances in Westminster with political partys who all refuse to let us decide our future. They want us to help with their Brexit preference but decline to look at allowing Scotland
      any leeway to decide its own future.

      Thats just mad,

    70. lumilumi says:

      As much as it pains me to say this, I think the SNP have majorly dropped the ball over the past couple of years.

      Right now they come across as just another party playing WM political games for short-term party political gain.

      Scotland being a part of the UK taints the politics in Scotland. It’s become mostly about indy (and, gahhh, Brexit!!). The fact is that within the UK, Scotland, or Scottish parties, or people of Scotland can never hope to have much influence at all.

      An independent country of about 5M people can easily support a proportional representation multi-party parliament. We in Finland do. One of the problems Scotland has is the old British political culture of FPTP and the desire of people to have their “own” MP (or MSP) instead of several regional MPs (or MSPs).

      Believe you me, even regional MPs (like all ours are) fight for their local matters. The locality is just larger than your village or part of a town/city. It’s as if people looked at the bigger picture…

      But changing political culture is very slow. Holyrood was constituted as partly PR, but not too much, kind of multi-party, aiming at coalition consensual governments (the norm in most European countries, and seen as a GOOD thing), but that all changed when the SNP became the plurality or majority party. Then the UK parties banded together to make Holyrood basically bipartite. Because it’s the only political culture the UK knows.

      Scottish independence supporters are just as guilty of perpetuating the old WM political culture. Calling list MSPs, such as Murdo Fraser (excuse me, while I laugh for a while) “unelected” and questioning their legitimacy as MSPs is questioning proportional representation.

      The problem Scotland has is letting political parties decide the list ranking – closed list – not very democratic. We got rid of it before I was born.

      In my country, it’s open list. Each party puts up candidates and whoever within the party list gets the most votes tops the list. Same for 2nd, 3rd etc. The parties cannot decide who tops the list.

      Then it’s all counted according to the d’Hondt, and we end up with a parliament that broadly reflects the popular vote.

      Sure, sometimes the popular vote doesn’t go the way you want, and the last places can be a bit counter-intuitive, but you end up with a parliament that reflects the popular vote. 22% this, 20% that, with other parties at 17%, 15%, 8%, dribs and drabs. No one party in our Parliament ever gets an outright majority, and if that happened, we’d view it as an aberration, an abomination, a dictatorship. Just a different political culture born out of a different electoral system.

      The problem Scotland has is getting used to a semi-PR system in Holyrood while tied down to the Westmister FPTP system, which permeates the political thinking of the electorate and even Scottish, SNP politicians.

    71. Colin Alexander says:

      So:

      What’s the most creative / entertaining way of spoiling your ballot paper without using swear words?

    72. Merkin Scot says:

      ‘The Liberal and SNP plan……’,announced in the Beeb this morning, just won the Libs a few more seats in Scotland at the next GE.
      .
      Jesus Wept.

    73. Bob Mack says:

      @Colin Alexander,

      Just vote Green.

    74. Colin Alexander says:

      Bob Mack

      Greens won’t be standing.

    75. Colin Alexander says:

      Clarification:

      Scottish Greens are planning to stand in *some* seats; (16) so far, but not in my constituency yet.

    76. ahundredthidiot says:

      ScotsRenewables @ 2.29

      and yet here I am, still a member……for now.

      Saturday is D Day for NS.

      Now, away back and iron your union flag.

    77. lumilumi says:

      kapelmeister says:
      27 October, 2019 at 2:29 pm

      Lumilumi

      Supposing Johnson had the nerve and the support of his party and the civil service to shut down Holyrood, such an action would be a force magnifier for Yes. Pro-devo unionists would detect to Yes in significant numbers.

      Johnson, I think, could quite easily get support in his party and the (English) civil service to implement “temporary” measures to ensure the “national interest” amid the Brexit chaos. Mostly the oil.

      Yes, such an action might be a magnifier for Scottish independence support. But what to do with it? Scotland will have been declawed, especially if (when?) Holyrood is suspended. Hard to see a nice, happy clappy way to independence for a long time.

    78. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 3.12
      Well the SNP haven’t ever made any secret of the fact that “right now ” their priority is keeping the UK in the EU.
      It’s their motives for doing so that are up for speculation!
      And how long the SNP support will tolerate them doing so?
      Their given reasons are plausible enough and I’ve no doubt this suits the EU down to the ground.
      There may indeed be “understandings” agreed on the down low which unfortunately seems to be the way of Global Politics right now.
      I suspect this is what people around the world are getting to the end of their rope with.
      Keeping the electorate confused and speculating and having a secondary agenda that we all only find out years later is sadly normal political practice.

      The SNP seemed to take the view that to get anywhere they had to play the Westminster system and it seems to have paid off.
      There clearly have been talks between the EU and the Scottish Government and we don’t know what has been agreed.
      All we do know is the SNP/ Scottish Government are prioritising stopping Brexit.

      But we also know that to have had Indy Ref 2 right after the Brexit vote or even with the 57 MPs in 2015 would have been ridiculous as we had just had the 2014 vote.
      But so far the time spent stopping Brexit whither or not it’s at the behest at the EU or not has been time spent damaging the Union too and damaging it beyond repair.
      So the UK Union will end even if Brexit doesn’t happen.
      The question then becomes…..
      Who does the EU need more Scotland or England
      The Continuer State thing has not been agreed upon.

      As to whether or not we are walking away with our resources after a Yes vote,your not being clear exactly what you mean?
      How do you imagine Westminster could force us to stay?

    79. Liz g says:

      Bob Mack @ 3.19
      I suspect Bob that it’s because it’s not going to happen.
      They are calling Johnston’s bluff and heading off all this bluster about “the SNP don’t really want an election they have been given the chance to vote for it and didn’t take it”
      Yes it’s ( as I was just saying to Joe ) political game playing and they all do it.
      It’s no a master plan at all,it’s just what they see as political talent and what they’re supposed to be doing.
      It’s just pissing people off now though!
      I just hope that in the early years of Indy we make it VERY clear up with this we will not put.

    80. Ian Foulds says:

      Breeks says:
      27 October, 2019 at 12:28 pm

      ‘…..Why don’t we pretend we’re a sovereign country, and pretend we can revoke Article 50 unilaterally, and then pass the time waiting for an election by having a massive acrimonious bun fight over constitutional sovereignty, and finding ourselves already independent by polling day?’

      At a meeting yesterday a number mooted the possibility of peaceful, civil disobedience. I am sure this might be one of a number of possibilities that might be up for consideration.

    81. lumilumi says:

      Liz g says:
      27 October, 2019 at 4:13 pm

      The SNP is political game playing. Badly.

      The sad fact is that earlier, they stood away from that kind of UK (English) politics shenanigans, and could claim “higher ground”.

      Now they’ve probably lost the “higher ground” for no gain. They appear just as twisty-turny as all the other UK parties and politicians. Making all their MPs look shifty at best, frauds at worst.

      Well done. :slow clap:

    82. Lochside says:

      As Jim Morrison sang ‘You cannot PETITION the lord with prayer’..well Jimbo may have gone to that big gig in the sky..but the idea of petitioning any power supernatural or human asserting its colonial entitlement over us makes me want to puke.

      All I see is Blackford, a merchant banker, posturing and playing the Westminster game of pantomime and Sturgeon tweeting into the ether whilst Boris and his chums are playing for real…..they have fucked over their own playpen so why the fuck will they listen to the squealing imprisoned farts of the SG?

      I and others warned on the ‘hive mind’ (where is the deranged GEEO entity now?) that we are about to be emasculated of our ‘parliament’ and its limited power, which the SNP have colluded with..never challenging the constant breaches of the Union Act.. and direct ruled as North Britain by these Etonian gangsters.

      Where’s the resident bore, who for years asserted without any legal backup from the SNP that we were the only equal partners with England in the UK Union? Yet went quiet when the arse end province called ‘Norther Ireland is de facto getting slung bribes and de jure being allowed to get a better deal than us?

      Oh and by the way ‘Joe’ and ‘Mist100′ you are both new on here aren’t you? and we’ve got your number…it’s ’77’.
      Weird scenes inside the goldmine right enough.

    83. Mist001 says:

      @ Lochside

      How about you fuck off with your 77 shite?

    84. Liz g says:

      lumilumi @ 4.33
      I don’t think so lumilumi ,they’ve made mistakes to be sure,and they’ve played within the Westminster system,absolutely.
      But I’d ask what do you suggest they did?
      Sit back and let the Tory’s get on with Brexit these last year’s,like Labour did with Thatcher?
      They didn’t choose to be in the Westminster system we did that in 2014.
      They may very well have some sort of arrangements with the EU and are stuck with them till it all plays out.
      The EU and the Scottish Government had no way of knowing just how insane the politics of Westminster would become or how long this nonsense would go on for.
      I would have said back then that the best time to run Indy Ref 2 was during the ” Implementation period ” when Westminster was fighting for Trade agreements it was ill equipped to negotiate,but the implementation period has never came.
      It could even be argued that the realisation of this is what caused the big push for the no deal crash out?
      In the meantime the Scottish People have no exactly stood up for themselves either…. Aye…

      We’ve been told often enough if we truly want independence all we have to do is demand it as a majority.
      While I agree with the Rev the Scottish Government should have secured the section 30 or mapped out the alternative last year,and, failure to do so was taking an unnecessary risk with independence happening soon….
      But if …. If and ands were nuts and nuts we’d all have granola….. 🙂
      Independence is still on the table…..
      And IMO there are many of those MPs who are very admirable people in the way that they do their job in Westminster all things considered!
      Not to mention the alternative to them is nay real alternative at all.

    85. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander

      The Electoral Commission’s guide for those who count the votes requires that rejected votes be classified and counted under four reasons for rejection:

      – absence of official mark [polling station stamp];
      – voting for more than one candidate;
      – writing or mark by which the voter could be identified;
      – unmarked or void for uncertainty of voter’s intention.

      I would go for clearly making an X in the box for the SNP candidate in black ink (ever wondered why they provide a pencil?} and in red or green ink in the party description section write … “I’m for Independence – Are You? or some other words of warning or advice.

      That way the teller will place your ballot in the “doubtful” tray and the candidates and election agents will be in attendance when the returning officer decides and explaines why your vote has been either allocated to the SNP candidate or rejected.

      http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdf_file/UKPE-doubtfuls-booklet.pdf

    86. WeiWei says:

      Spotted this on Politwoops @deleted by mps what does everyone make of it ? 🙁

      I for one am very disheartened.

      Angus B MacNeil MP (scottish-national-party) tweeted :
      Not to depress anyone, but we don’t even have a Plan A up and working …. ? Depresses me mind ??

      0 0
      Angus B MacNeil MP Deleted 9 days ago after 3 minutes, tweeted using Twitter for Android

    87. Colin Alexander says:

      I thought it’s quite funny about how useless the SNP are, until I stopped and remembered: these are the same people that are supposedly creating the strategy and leading the fight for indy.

      That soon wiped the grin off my face.

      ———————————————————-
      77TH Brigade on here?

      To use an often quoted phrase:

      Why would 77th Brigade want to criticise the SNP when they would be interrupting the enemy making mistakes?

    88. ahundredthidiot says:

      Lochside re 77 numpties

      I will give you joe, yes.

      Those poor deluded fools, still playing for queen and country. One day they will develop a mind of their own…..and either face it and deal with it….or bury it and be angry for ever.

    89. Colin Alexander says:

      Col.Blimp IV 5.17pm

      Interesting. Thank you.

    90. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin A – it is ‘oft quoted phrase’

      but then, you’re a fucking muppet aren’t you.

      Please state, for the record, that the 77th are all a bunch of stupit wee boys and lassies withoot a mind o’ their own. Slaves in fact, of the Empire.

      Go on – say it? – and don’t just ditto – actually post it.

      Prick.

    91. Liz g says:

      Ian Folds @ 4.31
      We’re a very long way from civil disobedience Ian.
      But I’ve heard conversations too… And it’s quite fascinating to hear some of the things that are being suggested,Scottish inventiveness is certainly alive and well!
      The bit I don’t get is….
      When Westminster and It’s minions speak of, the Empire the Commonwealth, Ireland and how valuable the UK is to the EU.
      We can all see how delusional it is!
      They might even believe it on some level too,but we all know it’s never going to happen.
      Why then are we in Scotland prepared to believe that Westminster could hold us?
      Oh they’ll Mibbi try to say they will,but their propaganda has done too good a job in their own population.
      The best they will manage is to try to keep some assets that we think are ours E.G. Our share of the treasure held in trust for the nation by Auld Lizzie… wait till ye see the One Nation Tory’s decide we’re two Countries after all when we start asking about that.
      They are scrambling around ask we speak to find a Federalism deal they can sell to us. That doesn’t sound like an administration confident that it could keep us beyond our agreement to me!

    92. Colin Alexander says:

      On ballot paper:

      x beside SNP then written in ink:

      I’m voting for the SNP IF they will declare the Union dissolved if they obtain 50% +1 of the popular vote in Scotland.

    93. wull says:

      At 2.33 pm above, ScotsRenewables called attention to an important article in the New Statesman, which comments on the thinking behind the LibDem Bill for a 9th December election, and indicates why the SNP will support it. I too recommend that article. Its explanation of why there is a real difference between a 9th December and a 12th December election should at least be considered, and not automatically ignored or rejected. There may be more to this than meets the eye, and the SNP strategy might not be quite as daft as it seems.

      I think all pro-Indy Wingers should at least give it a try.

      I have tried to copy and paste the link below. However, if, as I suspect, my efforts have not been successful, just scroll up to ScotsRenewbles at 2.33 pm. There you will get it again, in a way that definitely does work.

      http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/10/liberal-democrats-and-snp-have-plan-9-december-election-will-it-work

    94. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin A

      btw….I might be in the back office……and have you on camera…..testing you…..maybe I’m the double bluff….maybe I’m the coffee girl…..you’ll never know for sure.

      (Now I’m inside your head – and it’s not a good view!)

    95. dadsarmy says:

      Well I did say our job was to spread rumours and confuse the enemy, and everyone on this thread is doing a wonderful job including the author! Sorry I’m a bit late to the party, here’s my contribution to the kool-aid fuelled tower of babel.

      Has anyone seen Keith Brown and Joanna Cherry in the room at the same time?

      Thought not.

    96. Mist001 says:

      New Statesman link works fine.

    97. ahundredthidiot says:

      Colin A @ 5:33

      You’re probably still wondering what blew your cover (because you’re a bit thick) – it was referring to the SNP as ‘the enemy’

      Myself (and quite a few others) are comfortable criticising SNP policy on Brexit – but mark our words Sir, the SNP is most definitely not ‘the enemy’.

      Time for you to change handle me thinks.

    98. velofello says:

      It is beginning to look like the SNP are morphing into a UK establishment party. Contentedly abiding by the archaic Westminster rules and conventions of an unwritten constitution.

      Forming a pact with the LIbDems! With Swinson? Carmichael? Carmichael, who with Mundel tried to destroy the political career of Nicola Sturgeon.

      And where is the SNP visible and vocal support for Alex Salmond? A career devoted to the SNP and the party cannot bring itself to welcome him to the conference? Why is the civil servant Evans still in position?

      I’ve only ever voted SNP. At the last Council election I abstained due to shades of candidate entryism from SNP HQ.

      We need a Wings party. Call it whatever, but make clear it’s unswerving intention, independence.

    99. The SNP is trying to stop Boris from getting his bill through Parliament and carrying out Brexit with or without a deal before the end of the year.
      No deal means no transition period.

      And don’t forget the imminent new tax rules going to come into play in January 2020. The mere fact that the Tories have even hinted that there could be an election on Boxing Day shows how desperate they are to beat that deadline, and perhaps that is why Oliver Letwin has now even come on board and wants the Bill he amended to be re presented so that he can now vote it through.

      The SNP wanted to have a vote of NO Confidence in the Tory Government to try and remove them from power but no-one else in the opposition was in agreement to follow that route.

      So, having been unable to get Swinson to agree to allow a temporary government headed by Corbyn for three weeks to take control and get us past October 31st, they are now trying to get numbers, without Labour, to again tie Boris’ hands by calling an earlier election. Having said all along that they will back an election only after No deal is firmly out of reach.
      Have to agree tho’ that it does feel uncomfortable to be doing a deal with Swinson .

      The slightly earlier GE will reduce the number of days sitting at WM that the tories can try to get the bill through and as explained in the New Statesman Article above, it also allows for genuine parliamentary time afterwards to get a new administration up and running before New Year. Which also allows the SNP to have the necessary people in place to fight a WM front. But it does feel risky.
      If there is to be an election then maybe it is better to be the person calling the date rather than reacting to the tory machinery.

      Boris’ popularity is dropping as more and more people realise the detail in his agreement.
      He has united N. Ireland against it – no mean feat!
      Has lost the support of the DUP, is running a minority government and has division in his own Cabinet now.

      Meanwhile, the SNP at Holyrood is pushing through the new legislation relating to holding referendums in Scotland and that is expected to be in place by the end of the year – so trying to play for time is a bonus for Holyrood business.

      I will be there to hear Nicola on Saturday and who knows what will have happened by then but things are moving fast so anything could be reality by then.

      To those who say they’ve had enough and are giving up I say hang on in there –
      is there another option at this stage? We will need every vote we can get to push things over the line so be ready to vote.

    100. Colin Alexander @5.41

      Your suggestion will render your ballot paper invalid and the vote will be lost – but I’m sure you knew that….

    101. Liz g says:

      Wull @ 5.42
      I read it earlier and while it’s a credible reason for the SNP to have floated the idea… I still think it’s to call Johnston’s bluff and head off the accusation that the SNP are only paying lip service to an election!
      This is the kind of thing ( while we don’t want Scottish MPs at Westminster at all ) that highlights the advantage of the Scottish MPs not being Labour voting fodder anymore!

    102. Sarah says:

      Many/some of the SNP MPs are not politicians. They only stood for election after the 2014 referendum because they thought Scotland needed them. I’m thinking of people like Dr Philippa Whitford and Joanna Cherry QC.

      They are hugely intelligent and are focused on Scotland regaining independence. I am sure that they will have been consulted by Ian Blackford as to the best way forward.

      I am therefore not in total despair. Yet.

    103. Liz g says:

      Meg Merrilees @ 5.57
      He knows!

    104. Col.Blimp IV says:

      :
      27 October, 2019 at 4:33 pm

      “… Making all their MPs look shifty at best, frauds at worst.”

      Claiming that wrenching Scotland away from the nurturing breast of our beloved EU will cause all manner of social and financial calamities.
      Does not really square – with telling people that divesting ourselves of the parasitical UK will be no more complex than changing your mobile phone provider.

      Even less so, If they were to succeed with their three-year mission to thwart Brexit despite the people of the UK having vote to LEAVE the EU in a referendum…yes a REFERENDUM the very thing they claim is the five-star gold standard way of getting us out of the UK.

      The twenty-year-old me would never have even contemplated voting for such a bunch of duplicitous charlatans far less felt morally obliged to join them in the aftermath of the ’79 Referendum betrayal.

      Has the SNP leadership actually morphed into something as awful as the Labour Party of Dalyell, Dewar, Robertson, Wilson, Cunningham, et all…

      …and me into one of the brain-dead old fossils that I would accost on the doorstep who would freely admit that the Labour party were worse than useless but would be voting for them nonetheless – because they always had done and were too old to change now?

    105. ahundredthidiot says:

      Col.Blimp IV

      ‘Has the SNP leadership actually morphed into something as awful as the Labour Party of Dalyell, Dewar, Robertson, Wilson, Cunningham, et all…’

      No. Labour took people and communities for granted – pushed them down even, to secure their position. The SNP have done, and continue to do, a fantastic job for Scotland at a National and Local level.

      Our beef is strategy on brexit – that’s all.

      so,

      Easy. Easy.

    106. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Colin Alexander

      EXcellent.

      They would have to argue the toss as to whether it was – or was not a vote for the SNP candidate.

      Bummer if it was ruled invalid … and turned out to be the +1 that was needed. LOL

    107. Golfnut says:

      @ dadsarmy.

      ‘ well I did say our job was to spread rumours and confuse the enemy ‘

      Our job, yes, but not the Scottish governments. Nicola has already been referred to as a liar, God only knows what the reaction would be if she behaved like Johnson or Corbyn, Swindon, Davidson etc, to long a list to print out here.
      The SNP’s job is to get us out of this union, that’s the plan, sharing the strategy for achieving that outcome is nonsense.
      Let’s face it the ‘ barking mad ‘ on here are having difficulty with no information, they’re still arguing about what currency we should use, I’m sorry but coping with a detailed strategy from what I’ve seen is beyond them.
      For arguments sake though, let’s say that Nicola broadcast her detailed route to ending this union, not only would we have every Tom, dick, and Harry finding fault, we would have just handed the enemy a stick to beat us with.
      Once the establishment machine was set in motion, we would have wall to wall media coverage, broadcasts, print, thinktanks, legal opinions, right wing EU malcontents all lining up to tell us we can’t do it, its a bad plan, what’s your plan b. Sound familiar.
      Don’t be under any delusion, Westminster will have gamed this, prepared for as many eventualities as they can. The longer Nicola keeps quite about her strategy, the less time Westminster has to attack it.

    108. Ian Foulds says:

      Off topic

      Just a reminder:

      BOTH POLITICIANS AND DIAPERS NEED TO BE CHANGED OFTEN AND FOR THE SAME REASON.

    109. Liz g says:

      Col. Blimp IV @ 6.09
      I think your missing that it’s the Westminster system that’s rotten to the core
      And I’m afraid you’ve bought into the underhand narrative of old that it’s just no worth voting cause they’re aw the same!
      In Aw these years have ye no worked out that the biggest lie of all is that Westminster want you to vote…
      They don’t they really don’t.
      Don’t be a fool man pick up that pencil…tell yer friend’s.

    110. Col.Blimp IV says:

      ahundredthidiot

      A bit hyperbolic I’ll admit but thinking about that strategy and its implications brought to mind the phrase “White-man speaks with forked tongue” and I could not help but hark back to the days when the SNP always held the moral high ground with the Unionists being lower than a snakes’ belly.

      Ian Blackford was around back then too … never one to be trusted any farther than you could throw a medium-sized Hippopotamus.

    111. Liz g says:

      Col.Blimp IV @ 6.36
      Did ye live in a Hovis advert back then Col. B ?
      The SNP were and are Politicians and it’s no exactly their fault if you couldn’t see it !

    112. lumilumi says:

      Liz g says:
      27 October, 2019 at 5:17 pm

      lumilumi @ 4.33
      I don’t think so lumilumi ,they’ve made mistakes to be sure,and they’ve played within the Westminster system,absolutely.
      But I’d ask what do you suggest they did?

      That’s the 64 million dollar question.

      But meekly aquasencing to Westminster ideas and votes sure as hell isn’t going to result in independence for Scotland. I’d say less focus by the SNP in Westminster games, more focus on independence, and Holyrood as the legitimate expression of the sovereignty of the people of Scotland.

      Which can easily be ignored by the Tory goverment in Westminster. They’ll cite the English idea that the monarch is sovereign but has conceded sovereignty to parliament. Self-congratulating each other on “the mother of parliaments” along the way. They’ll quite easily ignore Scotland’s fundamentally different idea of sovereignty.

    113. ScotsRenewables says:

      Meg merrilees says:
      27 October, 2019 at 5:55 pm

      No deal means no transition period.

      . . . which means no way for Scotland to stay in the EU as it transitions to independence.

    114. Joe says:

      @ Liz

      Yeah, they stated their priority is keeping the UK in the EU. That obviously implies ‘at the cost of Scottish Independence’. They are therefore not a Scottish National Party but an EU National Party in all but name.

      As for the Scottish resources thing – I dont want to be too negative here but the prospect of the UK, indebted as it is and with a difficult post Brexit few years ahead will allow Scotland to cut loose with the bulk of UK energy resources (among many other things) after offering a simple straight up referendum is simply unrealistic.

      You can kind of wargame the scenarios (assuming they even agree to a referendum):

      1 – because we dont want the kind of ‘chaos’ caused by Brexit (remainers not accepting the result) it would have to be won by a substantial 60% majority.
      2 – assuming this was won they could easily pretend that because the Scottish people arent oil investors, international trade experts, global politics gurus etc that they ‘didnt know what they were voting for’. They would also use every little dirty trick the remain camp has used in the Brexit referendum.
      3 – if number 2 was not successfully pushed then organised Unionist violence would erupt and there would be a surprising amount of Nationalist reprisals. This state of unrest would lead Westminster to call a halt to the process while security forces are deployed to provide stability until ‘peace and normality has been established’.
      4 – while 3 is happening the basis for independence would be undermined – economically Scotland would be made to suffer by any means and the results would be blamed on the ‘chaos caused by the independence referendum’.
      5 – people would be steadily worn down into accepting a situation of perpetual stasis until such time support for independence is sufficiently low and another indy ref can be held at such time as supports the Unionists, which they WILL win and that will be the end of that.

      Thats the most likely scenario and apart from stage 4 mirrors exactly whats being done to people on Brexit.

      It could get much dirtier also – MI5 would already have assets close to political figures and even senior political figures themselves and somehow, just somehow, every time a resolution could be won through it would escape any kind of realisation. If it gets VERY dirty then those evil dirty nationalists would set off a bomb somewhere crowded (you know, to undermine public support for themselves) with maybe a reprisal by Unionists on Scottish politicians who arent agreeable to British wishes?

      The above is the basically the intelligence services 101 on how to achieve political goals in a nation. Its been played out many, many times.

      Scottish people need to be focused and want independence more than security, more than wealth, more than ‘happy open border BS’. They also need to stand solid on democratic principles (which hasnt happened with Brexit) then maybe there’s a hope. Trouble is – the UK is actually still a good country relative to most others to live.

      However the SNP are absolutely not that, even if they were actual committed nationalists. Which is laughable now.

      Only solution I see that doesnt involve winning some sort of war – let the bastards keep the oil and the gas. Offer them cheap water and renewable energy production and then fight like hell to get out.

    115. Liz g says:

      lumilumi @ 6.49
      Playing by Westminster rules is exactly what the people of Scotland asked them to do whither they realised it or not.
      We’ve given Scottish politicians nae other mandate,except to not Brexit. Is that no what they’ve been doing all this time?
      They do have a wee side effort to point out that Independence is still our best option going on.
      But again they need us Scots to get behind it for it to have effect,so again specifically what else are you suggesting could help?
      And Westminster can indeed ignore our wishes,but only for as long as we’re prepared to let them.
      Us and a vote, it seems to me, is the key that unlocks Independence!
      They seem to be organising the vote part but even then we can bring it as far forward as we’re prepared to demand.
      And how much we’re willing to demand it is the real 64 million $ question.
      We either start shouting about it or we accept the SNP time table….And I don’t fur a minute fault the Rev fur shouting!

    116. Cubby says:

      The vast majority of this thread is sadly once again SNP baaaad.

      BTL is in the main a mixture of idiots and Britnats.

    117. ScotsRenewables says:

      This is an SNPBaaaad blog now Cubby . . .

      Wonder what Nicola would have to do on Saturday to cheer Stu up.

    118. Old Pete says:

      Apart from civil war how are the SNP meant to gain Scotland its Independence ? Any sensible and practical ways forward would be helpful ?
      Blaming the only party that is totally in favour of Scotland and our people seems pointless if there are no sensible and practical alternatives.

    119. callmedave says:

      update:

      Brexit election: Government to ‘look at options’

      https://archive.is/hubnP

    120. Colin Alexander says:

      Cubby

      Feel free to argue the merits of SNP policy re Brexit and Scottish indy, if you see any.

    121. Shug says:

      I can’t help think that the snp make such proposals in the full and certain knowledge that the unionists will stop or ignore them
      Having done that these options are closed and crash out will happen reinforcing the case for indyref2

    122. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 7.09
      Aw behave yerself Joe,that’s just buying into the British Nationalists bullshit.
      Even if half of what you said was a quarter true and we speak the war speak of Westminster.
      Your forgetting that when Westminster was pulling all that shit off we were right there with them.
      We know them better than they know themselves.. Aye..

      Your seriously suggesting we have over our territorial waters and all its resources in case Westminster does what???
      Wind up the Orange Order?? Plant a few false flags??
      Those days are long gone…. The Orange Order have nae real power here and false flags don’t work anymore either we see them for what they are and that kind of defeats the purpose.

      Think about what yer sayin man…. We hand them our resources to enable them to always afford to wage some kind of war on us…
      We’ve already done that it’s called the Treaty of Union…
      And ending that folly is the whole point!!
      Boy they really done a number on you… These the people who think Boris Johnson’s prime minister material and Charles should be a king and your scared of them?
      They’ve never held a country yet that’s rejected them and yes those countries sometimes paid a high price fur it.
      But they didn’t share the island with those people and that made their risk less!

    123. Sunniva says:

      I agree this is a bad move. But only if it works. It would need Labour to back it. Since Corbyn has denounced it as a ‘stunt’ that seems unlikely.

      It’s not going to happen.

    124. Colin Alexander says:

      Old Pete

      If it ever came to civil disobedience, whose side do you think the SNP politicians would be on?

      Whose side were they on when it was Stu v Kezia?

      Or to put it another way: who pays their salaries?

      Who did they take an oath of allegiance to?

    125. Gary45% says:

      Troops, just had this conversation with my wife, we are both SNP/pro EU.(although not happy with the new Franco’s Spanish Government and lack of humanity from the EU) at the moment.
      After a lengthy talk came to the conclusion, no extension, no GE and leave the EU on the 31st October.
      The 3 month extension will be a waste of time, government holidays and if an election is called, Parliament will be closed so there goes the 3 months.( can, kick, down, road)

      Then and only then when the sh*t hits the fan regarding the disaster that awaits the UK post Brexit, maybe Scotland as a whole will realise where we stand in the UK bubble.
      If Scotland is still that gullible then FU*K IT.
      The wife and I have done our bit trying to help the nation, trudging in the pissing rain leafleting etc. but when you realise enough is enough, hell mend them.

    126. Shug says:

      As Indyref2 develops I hope stu has a plan for managing the unionist that will attack and try to bring down this site

    127. Liz g says:

      Joe @ 7.09
      Also I said earlier that the priority of keeping Scotland in the EU,was the priority – at this time – …
      It is implying nothing other than that’s an instruction from us that needs dealing with as it’s happening.
      It is not mutually exclusive of Indy Ref 2 by any stretch of the imagination and your being disingenuous to claim that it is.

    128. Liz g says:

      Shut @ 7.45
      Will attack… Will..??
      I’m supposed to be decorating. 🙂

    129. Cubby says:

      Scotsrenewables@7.24pm

      “Wonder what Nicola would have to do to cheer up Stu”

      Nicola Sturgeon replaces Cosgrove at centre forward and scores a hat trick for Aberdeen for a world record 50 successive matches.

    130. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @
      They will be on the side of law and order of course.
      To do otherwise would be tantamount to a declaration of war and right up Westminster’s street!
      Civil disobedience is no the business of the SNP it’s the people’s business only!

    131. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ 7.41
      Oh and Auld Lizzie Windsor would do well to remember that oaths a two way street.
      Until it’s to the Scottish Constitution and then more terms and conditions ( TBA )attach!

    132. galamcennalath says:

      The voters of the UK returned MPs in 2017. This was the midst of Brexit deliberations and every voter had no excuse for not understanding the issues. A huge problem for both May and Johnson is, these aren’t the MPs they wanted! The peoples’ chosen representatives don’t suit their agendas.

      Johnson dislikes the mix even more and is scared shitless by their opinions and potential. That’s why he’s been delaying, proroguing, limiting their choices, and wanting them replaced.

      They have passed the second reading of the current Withdrawal Agreement Bill and now wish to proceed to amendments. They would probably tweek the WAB to improve workers’ rights, probably soften Brexit to include customs union, and perhaps even insist on an EURef2.

      This the not in any way the Brexit Johnson and his far right cabal want. Their simple solution is a crash out ‘no deal’. And MPs have probably denied that.

      What next? Who knows!? A interesting week ahead.

      Truth probably is, most YES supporters are less interesting in the second English Civil War, between Executive and Parliament …. we want to know what the SNP are going to do and when we actually dissociate from WM permanently.

    133. Ian Foulds says:

      Liz G at 5.40pm

      Of course I hope you are right!

      Ian

    134. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Liz g said

      “Did ye live in a Hovis advert back then Col. B ?”

      LOL!

      The “For as long as there is a hundred of us still alive…” bit of the Declaration of Arbroath, is the maxim that governs my every thought.

      “…cause they’re aw the same” is an over-simplified truism, which I agree despite being politicians the SNP once had an exemption from. To have even a faint chance of becoming an SNP MP, the time, effort and expense necessary would tend to deter career orientated carpetbaggers from giving such a herculean quest a moment’s thought.

      The advent of the Scottish Parlament and the SNP’s subsequent electoral success, there and at Westminster, changed things a bit.

      Before Holyrood there were not much more than a dozen people whos jobs were linked to the SNP now there are at least 100 elected representatives, add to that their PAs, Researchers, Special Advisors and a greatly enhanced HQ Staff and you have a lucrative career structure that did not previously exist.

      It would be naive to assume that they are all motivated by nothing other than a desire to help set their country free regardless of cost to themselves(like in days gone by), and that none of them are” NATS of Convenience”, there to push an alternative agenda or to line their pockets courtesy of the public purse, or with a little help from those who would like better access to the public purse.

      But be assured, I will continue to vote for them….[everything goes into soft focus sepia and the Hovis theme starts to play in the backgroundd]…A bit like they twats who used to flog the Socialist Worker at Demos with the poster saying – “VOTE LABOUR – BUT FIGHT FOR A SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE”

    135. Colin Alexander says:

      Liz g says:
      27 October, 2019 at 7:51 pm
      to Colin Alexander:
      “They will be on the side of law and order of course”.

      Is that English law or Scots Law? The British Order?

    136. dadsarmy says:

      What’s funny but contemptibly pathetically sad at the same time, is those who complained time after time that Sturgeon didn’t go to any marches or rallies – for 5 years – and now that she is going to be the main event at one – the first for 5 years – are complaining about her going and what she’s going to say when she hasn’t even said it yet.

      Wha a load of old sewn-up arseholes.

      Rally George Square starting 1pm on Saturday 2nd November – next week. With Sturgeon the main speaker.

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17995925.national-rally-janey-godley-confirmed-join-line-up/

      Some won’t be able to make it, fair enough. Some are more likely to be there in the company of manky shirt – or even IN his shirt.

      Just. Fucking. Get. There. If. You. Support. Independence.

    137. Athanasius says:

      There’s a cycle to these things, Stu. Phase one is about taking it out of the cupboard, dusting it off and convincing people that it’s serviceable. That’s what the SNP have done. Now you need somebody who’ll actually wear it out in the open. Trouble is, after decades of work on the ground, the SNP have finally come within touching distance of their goal, and now their bottling it. Phase two is the collapse of the SNP and its replacement by people who are serious and determined.

    138. Bill McLean says:

      Any one else having trouble accessing The National on line?

    139. Dan says:

      @ dadsarmy at 8.23pm

      A few considerations. It’s too short notice for many to attend, or for YES groups to arrange buses, no way George Square will hold anywhere near the amount that attended Edinburgh march a few weeks back so every chance many won’t even be able to see the stage.
      Clocks have gone back so I’ve decided I’m not riding my bike in the cold and dark on boring ass motorways to get home.

      That’ll be me a total defeatist I guess. But I’ve been to virtually all the marches in some capacity and I’m done with marching now.
      We managed to get over a supposed significant tipping point with the last Edinburgh march.
      It’s time to shit or get off the pan.

    140. Liz g says:

      Colin Alexander @ 8.08
      I believe it was Nicola who said in 2014 that all current laws would remain as they are on the day of independence unless we change them..
      And no matter what the jurisdiction hurting people is always illegal under any law!

    141. dadsarmy says:

      @Dan
      That’s nice dear, any excuse in a storm.

      TAKE THE FUCKING TRAIN.

    142. Liz g says:

      Col Blimp IV @ 8.07
      Well look on the bright side,the SNP haven’t had a century or more to let the rot set in and we’ve the Rev shining a light on them too!
      The SNP haven’t ever had a tame media even here, and that’s just how it should be.
      No matter what anyone says they can’t say that.
      Then with Indy and a Constitution as some Auld long deed party once sang..
      Things Can Only Get Better 🙂 and real change will follow …

    143. doug_bryce says:

      Stu : just the other day you were complaining that Brexit being cancelled would end SNP claim for IndyRef2.0

      Now you are arguing that general-election means brexit will happen. Now – Tory Brexit is clearly a shite-show and will be a disaster. However it is paradoxically also the golden ticket for convincing 50+% of Scots that independence is the best option.

      The real boogie-man / awkward question for SNP is a peoples-vote.

    144. Liz g says:

      Dan @ 8.36
      You’ve nothing to beat yerself up over my friend
      You’ve played your part …. And then some.
      I’d rather you didn’t take the bike at this time of year either 🙂
      It is a wee shame you won’t make it but it was indeed very shot notice.
      I think there will be too many for George Square as well but I’m sure if they had to change it to the green they will.am

      Anyhoo….. Just in case you did make it and for anyone else reading….
      Friends of Wings ( the stall people ) have booked the upstairs hall in DOWS just off George Square from 11.00am.
      To get a seat or a comfort break or just to say hi….. And a drink obviously… 🙂
      Should be a good day…

    145. dadsarmy says:

      @Dan
      Still plenty of buses and seats, less than an hour and a half each way, £7.20 return if you don’t have a discount card plus £1 booking fee.

      Rally from 1.30pm to 3.30pm.

      Give yourself time for lunch before and a pint afterwards – after all, you won’t be driving. Bus is comfortable – I’ve been on it to go to the Edinburgh march, and I had to get into Glasgow first and back out again. Some people come from Shetland.

      https://uk.megabus.com/route-guides/edinburgh-to-glasgow

      Or is there some other “handy” excuse …

    146. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Liz g says:
      27 October, 2019 at 8:46 pm
      Col Blimp IV @ 8.07

      “… ? and real change will follow …”

      I’m sure it will…

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBlaMOmKV4

    147. dadsarmy says:

      @Liz g

      I think there will be too many for George Square as well

      I certainly hope so, I’d like to see crowds from Central Station to Buchanan Bus Station, from High Street to Hope Street.

      If they can do it in Barcelona.

      ———–

      Any more excuses from anyone else: “There’s no room in Glasgow”?

      It might rain? Oh dear, this is Scotland.

      There really is so much patheticness around, with people preferring to moan, whinge and hold grievances AGAINST the SNP.

      Well moaners, whingers and grieveance monkeys, put up, or SHUT UP.

    148. Liz g says:

      Doug bryce @ 8.52
      A people’s vote will destabilise England even further and was never very likely to happen.
      But if it did….. A second referendum within 3 years of the first destroys the ” we’ve voted for unspecified generations and need to wait at least 10 years +++++ ” argument “.
      So it’s an argument that fits Scotland’s Brexit result at no real cost to the Yes Campaign….
      And for what it’s worth Scotland has now past the “Generation” time specified by Westminster for N. Ireland.

    149. Liz g says:

      Col Blimp IV @ 9.04
      Why thank you for that Col B.
      A beautiful song and the images were inspirational xxx

    150. Capella says:

      @ Bill McLean – I can access The National online OK.

    151. dadsarmy says:

      Just in case anyone didn’t know that there’s an Independence Rally in George Square organised by The National next Saturday at 1.30pm to 3.30 pm, with Nicola Sturgeon, the Leader of the SNP and the First Minister of Scotland, speaking (amongst others, another to be announced every day this week):

      https://www.thenational.scot/news/17996006.richard-walker-join-nationals-rally-help-demand-indyref2020-right/

      Fed up with staying at home navel-gazing over Brexit? Reading blog articles telling you Indy Ref 2020 ain’t going to happen because, errr, reasons?

      Have a day out, meet like-minded people, bring saltires, YES badges, placards, fishing rods, enjoy the craic.

      Independence is on its way and IT WON’T BE LONG NOW

    152. Dan says:

      dadsarmy at 8:38 pm

      Ha ha, no need to make it personal as I was just pointing out the logistics of trying to plan for events with short notice when large numbers are involved.
      Our local YES group estimates it takes two days worth of time to fully arrange initial coach booking, setting up eventbrite ticket management and finance collection, creating passenger lists and info sheets, bus marshals on day etc.
      AUOB marches took months to plan and even with that time they still got pelters by many on here for breaching some regulation or other.
      How can the National put all that together and have it all planned to the letter in a week?

      “Take the fuckin train” – Clearly spoken from a person that knows how well isolated rural communities are served by public transport…

      Edit: I see you have posted again at 9pm but it doesn’t relate to rural communities.
      There’s no further excuses from me that you seem to be implying I’d find.
      FYI I’ve pretty much committed the past 5 years to formerly SNP and latterly YES group activity in a voluntary capacity. Hundreds of hours and probably thousands of pound spent on those activities. Nevermind the sacrifice that entailed and hours lost to my own personal life / family and work.
      This seemingly eternal can kicking is all very well for those in positions of being paid to do politics, but it is unsustainable for many activists and this inevitably leads to attrition.

    153. dadsarmy says:

      That’s George Square, Glasgow, YES City!

      Well, one of them with apologies Dundee.

      Freedom Square!!! 1.30pm 2nd November 2019!

      Indy with Sturgeon !!!!!

      Be there or be Square – Geordie Whelps Square – geddit?

    154. dadsarmy says:

      @Dan
      Sorry, for some reason I thought you were coming from Edinburgh.

      As for 5 years of your life, try since 2012 flat out for me, busy during the national conversations if you know what they were, pushing Scotland and Indy (and devolution) on UseNet, telling Dutch, germans, French and even Swedes about it before then, and pushing Devo over resistance from Labour and shop stewards and even to start with from SNP back in 1979, and Indy from 74 onwards. All for not one brown cent.

      Give me a shout when you’ve caught up at the back …

    155. Golfnut says:

      For arguments sake though, let’s say that Nicola broadcast her detailed route to ending this union, not only would we have every Tom, dick, and Harry finding fault, we would have just handed the enemy a stick to beat us with.
      —————-

      That’s fair, Golfnut. But surely there’s plenty of room between what you describe and the ultra-minimalist messaging we Yessers are currently getting from the SNP.

      If they’d like to use their current leverage at WM but for some reason are being thwarted, can’t they just tell us so in general terms? Even when it did appear they’d used their leverage to secure those mealy-mouthed Labour commitments for an S30, they never told us they’d done so — instead it had to appear as gossip and reading between the lines.

      I am way more pro-SNP than many commenters here. I understand the necessary triangulation and the need to address soft No Remainers far more than the indy rank and file, and believe this strategy is partially responsible for Yes consistently topping 50%.

      But is there not a possibility we’re being taken a wee bit too much for granted here, at least as far as messaging is concerned? Would it really kill the leadership to tell us they’re at least considering how to use their current leverage to secure an S30? Just some small indication that this has at least crossed their mind?

      More generally — and I know I’m a broken record on this — the SNP need to stop being so seemingly honourable and therefore predictable not just at WM but online too. We’re no longer in the twentieth century. It’s perfectly possible to segment your message for many different audiences. So if, let’s say, you don’t want soft No Remainers to know that you’re trying to leverage Brexit to obtain an S30, then only send that message on social media to confirmed Yessers. And so on.

      TLDR: The SNP’s current shortcomings may not be in overall strategy but in its messaging re same.

    156. Defo says:

      The electoral commission must have a fast track service

    157. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Dan

      I feel your pain, I wish I had a bottle of wine or whisky for every bottle of wine and whisky I donated for raffle prizes over the years.

      It won’t cost me that much in time or money to get to George Square but I recall taking my son and his pal to Dundee on the train for some video game event … That was a pricey expedition.

    158. Socrates MacSporran says:

      Watching (again) on BBC4, the excellent documentary about the men who built the Clyde-built liners.

      They have just shown Jimmy Reid’s marvellous: “There will be no hooliganism, there will be no vandalism, there will be no bevvying” speech.

      Would that Nicola can come up with something equally electrifying and uplifting when she speaks on Saturday.

    159. Phronesis says:

      Scotland, the entire country, did not vote for Brexit, the loss of workers’ rights, our democratic institutions, economic calamity and the degradation of state support for Scotland’s citizens. The Tories have spaffed £35 billion– an underestimate- up a wall on their hopelessly entangled constitutional failures.That is not the sign of competent government, WM is not a functioning democracy.
      Scotland in another country with a functioning government, its foundation built on human rights and democracy, independence is on the horizon, visible and within Scotland’s grasp.

      ‘We conclude from recent GDP data that the slowdown of business investment offers
      the most probable and clear evidence of a negative Brexit-related impact. Compared to a post-crisis average path of increase of 4% a year, we calculate a cumulative
      shortfall of business investment connected to the Brexit decision of some £35 billion…there are strong grounds this time as to why a recession of some depth and duration is likely in a no-deal Brexit, due to a combined demand and supply shock of exceptional scope and character…In conclusion, we can be sure that – if Brexit goes ahead – the argument about the scope for deregulation will quickly become louder, and more pressing, with the rightwing of the business community sensing that this is their golden opportunity…to wrench the UK by political force out of its vast complex network of EU links, and to hardwire it into the US economy, in a way that irrevocably connects the UK politically as well as economically into the American system. This brings perceived benefits to both the ‘free trade and deregulation’ wing,and to the hard right Brexit base, who see Trump as a symbolic figure to admire…From an economic standpoint, there is no serious Brexit scenario in which the UK benefits economically’

      https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PEF_BrexitWrench_Digital_-pages-5-8.pdf

    160. Mist001 says:

      I predict on Saturday that Sturgeon will announce ‘Independence is coming’, there will be a huge cheer from the crowd, but no explanation will be forthcoming regarding how independence will come and if anyone gets the chance to meet her face to face, you won’t be allowed to ask about SNP policy.

      In other words, the whole event will just be preaching to the converted.

    161. doug_bryce says:

      @LizG. Fair point! Peoples vote does rather cancel the ‘once in a generation’ argument.

      Soon it the direction of brexit will be clear. Very soon those who voted UK / EU in Scotland will need to choose which union they wish to be part of. A small swing will win it for YES.

    162. dadsarmy says:

      Time to sign off, here’s one I’ll share with you not long out when I met my wife. Well, she wasn’t my wife at the time you understand.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cs3Pvmmv0E

      You gotta have faith. Seems to have disappeared here, including the Rev.

      Time for the Return of the Jedi Faith!

    163. lumilumi says:

      BTW, why is it such a problem to have a GE on a Monday instead of a Thursday? Why Thursday, anyway?!?

      Thursday seems to me an idiotic day to have a GE. A weekday when people have work etc. In my country, all elections (local, parliament, president, EU) are on a Sunday. It’s deemed the day most people don’t have work.

      If you have work or anything else on polling day, you can vote in advance. In person, in hundreds and thousands of “advance polling” places. Shopping malls, schools, post officies, libraries etc. You have to present proper ID (driving licence, passport, photo ID card), your polling card (vote) will be sealed in an envelope only to be opened on the actual polling day.

      If you vote on actual polling day (always a Sunday), you have to go to the designated polling station and prove your identity (driving licence, passport, ID-card) before being allowed to vote.

      Not everybody might have a driving licence or a passport but in our country everybody can get a photo ID-card for €5 or summat. I don’t know the price exactly but it’s about a pint or two of beer. I’ve never had one, I’ve always used my driving licence as ID. Also, I always make sure I have a valid passport. Just in case I have to travel somewhere. It’s an expenditure, €50 over 5 years or something.

      Anyway, no-one is allowed to vote without proper ID in my country. No dodgy postal votes. Our electoral rolls are centrally held. kind of “big brotherish”, but we think the British system is horrific, it seems so open to all kinds of abuse, especially the postal vote. Maybe you think your system is just fine?

    164. Cubby says:

      Mist001@10.11PM

      Can you not get your free Prozac in France. Is that what is bugging Mist. Travelling to Glasgow to see for yourself. Naw – didn’t think so.

      You would make the Rev I M Jolly seem like the life and soul of any party.

    165. Liz g says:

      Mist 001 @ 10.11
      And???
      Preaching to the converted has value.
      This we can see in
      The Religions…
      The Endless cycle of Royal births deaths and marriages…
      The back catalogue of a Band..
      The repeats of old war movies…
      Strictly big brothers x factor dancing…
      Fecken fitba….
      And the AUOB marches…
      Clearly this stuff works.. So why not?
      We now know the deal that Westminster and the EU have cooked up and which ever way it all goes we know what the choices open to the UK are and they’ll take one of them!
      So why not have a rally,it will mean so much to everyone who has campaigned all year and thought they were only picking it up again next spring.
      If there’s some kind of announcement great ( not even sure if it’s an appropriate occasion for a major announcement ) but hey ho, at the very least Nicola being there will showcase the numbers we not only held but built up…. Us..the Yes movement we did that and we deserve our First Minister to see what she carries with her into Indy Ref 2!

    166. Liz g says:

      doug bryce @ 10.16
      That’s how I see it too Doug.
      It was always going to be pick a Union.
      And the one with the “Article 50” get out clause is a no brainer .
      When the British Nationalists ask why if being in a Union is so bad do Scots immediately want to join another.
      That’s the answer,because the EU has an article 50 and as soon as that Union stops working for Scotland we can leave it too.
      The Brext fan’s moan at it taking 3 years to get out of the EU…… Scots have been trying to dump the 1707 Union in one way or another ,well since 1708 and even our chance to do so in 2014 was nobbled!
      So the Union with the clearly marked exit has to be the obvious choice 🙂

    167. lumilumi says:
      27 October, 2019 at 10:26 pm
      BTW, why is it such a problem to have a GE on a Monday instead of a Thursday? Why Thursday, anyway?!?

      Thursday seems to me an idiotic day to have a GE. A weekday when people have work etc. In my country, all elections (local, parliament, president, EU) are on a Sunday. It’s deemed the day most people don’t have work.
      ——————-

      Yeah, but you live in a normal, sane, progressive northern European democracy of the type we Scots hope to emulate one day. Meanwhile, we’re ruled by the equivalent of some tramp smearing himself in his own leavings while proclaiming himself the planet’s greatest genius, chucking his muck at anybody looking on while demanding they kiss his fungus-covered toes, declaring that he’s taking back control as he makes himself a crown out of pizza vomit, day after day, year after year.

      Your insights here are interesting. Keep them coming.

    168. Golfnut says:

      @ Unionist Media BDSM.

      I don’t believe the S30 is anything more than smoke and mirrors( personal opinion ). No unionist/ British party could or would be trusted to deliver an S30, therefore no point getting people’s hopes up regarding that issue. Labour’s mibbes aye, mibbees naw, mibbees later should have really killed any notion that that was the way forward. I believe we are heading for the courts, that sovereignty will be at the very heart of whatever excuse is used to get us there.
      Westminster, the Crown and her ministers will be forced to defend their actions over the last 3 yrs.
      I can’t wait to hear some arsehole stand up and defend a clause denying that the very basis of the political union between Scotland and England, the requirement of consent, was removed by Parliament and signed by the monarch.

    169. Bradford Millar says:

      seriously Stu you can’t expect the SNP to continue to toe the Labour line when they are petrified of a general election they will never support a general election, Corbyn and Labour are not trust worthy either we need out of the UK as quick as both the SNP and Lib Dems are exasperated by Labour’s in-action … if SNP win 50+ seats and Tories and Labour win 0 seats between them then they will be in no position to block Indyref2 … remember last year Nicola received confirmation from Scotland’s top constitutional law lord

    170. Swami Backverandah says:

      Do the SNP think against this backdrop that they potentially gain more seats in an upcoming GE.
      And voting with Labour against a majority Tory Gov. might be a better bargaining chip for a future Indy ref green light.

      Then it’s Labour’s to lose the Union. Easier to get a Yes vote in those circumstances.

    171. mr thms says:

      I read a claim in a Guardian article that the UK Government had spent £6.3 bn this year on preparing for a No Deal Brexit!

      So, should the UK accidently leave the EU at 11:00 pm on the 31st October and Westminster decides to hold a GE, the public will have the choice of voting for the Tories and their new trade deals and spending of EU ‘savings’, the SNP and the Lib-Dems rejoining the EU (under Article 50, part 5) and Labour’s new WA and a confirmatory referendum.

    172. Al Dossary says:

      @Lumilumi & BDSM media,

      The issue over ID is that for some reason Westminster is afraid to introduce an ID card system. Every 5 years or so, the govt. of the day pretends to want to introduce an ID card. Then they set their lap-dog media to attack the system, quoting claims of police and authorities abusing the system, Orwellian state etc. and the idea is quietly dropped again for another 5-10 years.

      Meanwhile most Europeans roll up at the UK border control using their ID card to enter the country whilst we are carrying a bloody passport to enter any other country, or even return to our own country. The EU requires a valid form of ID to travel – the passport being the only UK recognised document for its citizens.

      Every country in the world manages just fine with an ID card, yet the UK is afraid to introduce one?

      I can roll up here with in Saudi with just my ID card and fingerprint to take out a 12 month mobile contract. Done, whereas in the UK you need passport & driving licence or passport plus 2 utility Bill’s because they do not have something as simple as a little piece of plastic proving who you are.

    173. Ghillie says:

      Stuart, you know very well that you are presenting a skewed version of the steps being taken by the SNP through this complicated and constantly changing situation in Westminster.

      Just look at those who applaud your words here.

    174. Breeks says:

      I’m a bitter critic about SNP strategy from a Constitutional perspective, and make no apology for it, but, if the SNP and LibDems hadn’t made the prospect of an election appear practicable, then Europe, and France in particular, might well have opted to veto an Article 50 extension and we’d be out of Europe on Thursday.

      Don’t count our chickens either…

    175. Robert Louis says:

      O/T

      Meanwhile, as the organisations in Scotland that previously used to stand up for gay rights, run around dizzying themselves with made-up pronouns and similar piffle not associated with gay rights, one of the most notorious homophobic businesses in the USA has opened up its first two outlets in the UK, in Scotland.

      Chik fil a, is notorious in the USA as being reportedly one of the funders of aggressive anti-gay organisations. It seems they have some kind of association with MacDional hotels and resorts in aviemore and the cairngorms national park.

      If you believe in equal rights for all people, then you might want to give them a body swerve, as many folks do in the USA.

      This is just the tip of the iceberg of the kind of fundamentalist ‘born-again’ extreme right wing rubbish we will have imposed come the England-enforced brexit, when the UK (and Scotland) is forced to let every rotten, unwanted business in America come over here.

      Scotland can do so much better than this.

      https://thinkprogress.org/chick-fil-a-still-anti-gay-970f079bf85/

    176. Liz g says:

      Robert Louis @ 7.12
      Thanks for the heads up Robert.
      We all have to be very aware gay rights just like all other rights are all too easily rolled back.
      We need to stay vigilant.

    177. Willie says:

      I must be missing something or am I.

      We, the SNP vote with the Tories and Johnson gets returned with a majority and then delivers whatever Brexit he wants.

      Meanwhile, the SNP stand in the cold calling for a Section 30 Indy Ref 2 that Johnson will never grant.

      Or has Johnson told the SNP that he’ll give them Indyref2 if they put him in power. Then he can fight the Indyref with all the power of an emboldened Tory majority government.

      Maybe getting us into a position of abject powerlessness is the plan to wake us up. I don’t understand this and more so when MPs like Joanna Chirry QC says she’s spent only marginally more than I hour speaking with Nicola.

      But maybe there is a cunning plan. Maybe Europe will facilitate a deal – England out, Scotland in, NI in, and an independent Scotland. Mnnn? – sounds a bit far fetched to me.and then some.

    178. Willie says:

      Mind you, the SNP have form for voting with the Tories.

      In fact did they not in the 1970s vote with them to bring down the Labour government and usher in Thatcher.

      Well they did. It was a mistake and Labour played it back to them for years whilst Thatcher screwed Scotland. You do many thing in politics but the SNP voting with the Tories, Dave for the 1970s mistake has not, at least maybe until now, been one of them.

      Let’s hope.

    179. Mark Russell says:

      This => https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/27/brexit-politics-britain-england-union

      “But the deepest change since 2016 is the weakening of the United Kingdom’s inner bonds. Theresa May went around preaching about “our precious, precious union”. This puzzled me, given massive English indifference. Ask somebody in Durham or Exeter why the union matters, and you get a blank stare, a shrug and perhaps a mumble. Then I understood: it wasn’t Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland that was “precious” to her, but “the union” in the abstract – a sort of legitimising halo hovering over Westminster’s anointed. It’s a cult confined to Britain’s ruling caste and, of course, to Scottish and Irish unionists who genuinely have something to lose.

      The “great rest of England” seem to have felt for many years that if the Scots want to leave, “it seems a pity but it’s their right”. Few southerners would feel diminished. Many believe, incorrectly, that England subsidises Scotland. Since 2016, Scotland’s heavy vote to stay in the EU, and the SNP’s incessant campaigning against any sort of Brexit, have become a severe irritant to “British” politics. Devolution is working more scratchily month by month, and the common English assumption for the past few years has been that Scottish independence is inevitable. Curiously, this is not how it looks in Scotland, where minds change slowly and where it’s far from certain that the next independence referendum will drag the yes vote over the line.

      In the union of four nations, one – England – has 85% of the population. What the past three years have shown is that the big partner is no longer concerned to put its own interests behind those of the others. A poll this year showed that Tory voters would be ready to “lose Scotland” (revealing words) if that ensured Brexit. In turn, devolution only made sense when all four nations were inside the European Union. If England in 2019 can no longer remember why the union with Scotland and Northern Ireland once made sense, Brexit has delivered the United Kingdom to the hospice of history.

    180. McDuff says:

      Willie 8.10
      No you are not missing something, you are spot on.

    181. Abulhaq says:

      The SNP’s desire to consort with British/Westminster/Unionist politicians is a strategic disaster.
      Sturgeon is being outmanoeuvred by more skilled and ruthless English politicians who do not give a damn for ‘weedy little Scotland’.
      Frankly given the current SNP leadership style, who can blame them. We look utterly pathetic.

    182. Jock McDonnell says:

      Lets not forget Mrs Thatcher won a GE which was due in 1979 after a 5 year parliament & a winter of discontent with trade unionists striking against a Labour government. The UK wanted change & Labour had betrayed Scotland with their 40% rule. Quite a few Scots voted for Thatcher. Thats democracy UK style.

      The situation now is different. Here is a chance to kick the Tories out. I am sure Labour will be eager to join in that battle.

    183. Iain mhor says:

      This will be your first visit @Willie? 8:16am

      That particular subject has been covered here over the years and BTL, to such depths, that I can only conclude this is indeed your first time here – In which case welcome(?) and try the “Reference” section link up in the top right there to help bring you up to speed.
      It will perhaps help protect you from abuse and from inadvertently(?) writing further keech.

      For your especial interest try this one:

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/36-years-of-discontent/

    184. Grey Gull says:

      Not everyone in the SNP singing from the same sheet. Angus Neil on Radio Shortbread this morning not at all happy about the SNP/Libdem election proposal.

    185. jeff says:

      “McDuff says:
      28 October, 2019 at 8:21 am
      Willie 8.10
      No you are not missing something, you are spot on.”

      That’s funny, wish people would stop peddling this pish – James Callaghan remembered the events differently – it was back stabbers in his own party that brought the gov. down. The SNP had no option but to withdraw support when Callaghan reneged on his devolution promises.

    186. hackalumpoff says:

      Freshly grilled links here:

      https://indyref2.space/forum/forum/links/

    187. Grey Gull says:

      Sorry, should have been Angus McNeil.

    188. Tackety Beets says:

      Ref Angus MacNeil on GMS this morning.

      I’m sure a link will appear, meantime it’s just after 2 hours 35 into the program. Circa 8.35am

    189. starlaw says:

      EU allows an extension until January 31. Boris calls an election on Dec 9 and blames winter election on the SNP as it was them that asked for Dec 9 .
      MSM led by the BBC will have a field day with this.

    190. manandboy says:

      THIS TORY GOVERNMENT UNDER BORIS JOHNSON IS THE POLITICAL EQUIVALENT OF DRUNK DRIVING.

      “All in all, another vintage week in the national journey. We remain in the wandering hands of a government that doesn’t want 16- and 17-year-olds to vote because they aren’t mature enough, but will go on strike if it can’t get its election exactly when it wants it. Meanwhile, 16- and 17- year olds are having to bunk off their childhoods to draw the attention of infantilised adults to the looming risk of ecological and social collapse.

      One month ago, members of Boris Johnson’s government were lining up to tell teenagers that missing one day of school was unacceptable and wrong. Presumably we’ll now hear from those same ministers how missing weeks of your six-figure-salary job running the country is right and heroic. What a time to be existing, when the best escape route feels like giving Xboxes to politicians, and waiting for the nation’s children to grow up.” (Marina Hyde in the Guardian Fri 25 Oct 2019 15.49 BST)

    191. Breeks says:

      hackalumpoff says:
      28 October, 2019 at 8:54 am
      Freshly grilled links here:

      https://indyref2.space/forum/forum/links/

      I visit you hackalumpoff, but not sure my ‘alternative’ opinions on stuff is what you really want on a forum just getting started. Might not be lumps who’d get hacked off. 😉

      But I appreciate the links and tremendous work being done. You make so many people that much better informed. Be patient, give it time, and people will come.

    192. Breeks says:

      American deregulation on terrorists…

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/trump-isis-baghdadi-leader-dead-uk-border-terror-fighters-syria-a9173456.html

      “And I actually said to them, if you don’t take them, I’m going to drop them right on your border and you can have fun capturing them again”. Brexit to end freedom of movement and Control immigration? That’s “Freedom of Movement” Trump style….

    193. HandandShrimp says:

      Do feel a wee bit sorry for the chap who had B-day 31.10.19 tattooed on his arse or where ever

      Well not very sorry…mildly sympathetic….or at least not actually laughing.

      So on to an election it would look like unless Labour and nervous Tories combine to block that too. In which case we really are in groundhog day. Or is that Boris’ cunning plan. Block an election, fail the terms of the extension and crash out?

    194. hackalumpoff says:

      @ Breeks
      Thanks for that.
      You are welcome to comment, or even start your own topic!
      It would be a shame if there were no alternatives, down with this sort of thing.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT9xuXQjxMM

    195. Well the SNP in bed with the lib dems after the Carmichael sago as the song goes when will they ever learn when will they ever learn ???

    196. Stoker says:

      McDuff wrote on 28 October, 2019 at 8:21 am

      “Willie 8.10 No you are not missing something, you are spot on.”

      Folks, “McDuff” & “Willie” are a pair of pish peddlars. Ancient guff debunked many times and long ago.

      See Iain Mhor’s reply @08:44

    197. Anybody notice the subtle change on the media this morning….

      Last night and 6.00 am this morning it was the Lib Dems and the SNP who were calling for a GE on Dec 9th – but nobody was really that sure how it would go down so all being a bit cagey.

      7.00am Labour may be considering backing the GE call from Lib Dems and SNP

      8.00am Labour def going to support the Lib Dems SNP motion and EU possibly going to back it

      8.30 am EU has agreed to extend till Jan 31st, also support the Lib Dem proposal for a GE

      8.45 am Jo Swinson does a car crash of an interview about the Lib Dem proposal to ask for a Dec 9th election – no mention of the SNP and she has no answer when asked what if Boris wins, has time to rally troops and crash us out before Jan 30th – er, um, gulp, oh look a squirrel… end of interview

      and the water is calm again…. close shave there BBC … don;t have to mention that sweaty word on the radio again today SNP , SNP, SNP – oh how they hate to say that unless it is about SNP BAAAAD.

      9.00am news The EU has granted extension till Jam 31st, Oct 31st deadline gone.
      The Lib Dems are putting forward a motion to ask for a GE on Dec 9th…..

      Hypocriteus Maximus.

    198. twathater says:

      Recd my multitool this morning , thanks Stu

    199. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Ha!

      Just got my wee Wings multi-tool thing through the letterbox. Totally forgot about that, didn’t realise I was getting a ‘perk’.

      Soo-perb!

      🙂 🙂 🙂

    200. Breeks says:

      Has anybody actually asked Europe how they’d feel about Scotland killing off Brexit with a devastating Constitutional Intervention? The might actually like the idea.

      Can’t we send all 27 Nations a wee petition to sign, to formally recognise Scottish Sovereignty, then leave it in an envelope above fireplace at 10 Downing Street, then we all just scarper in a taxi?

      It’s a little bit of what everybody wants…

    201. Ian Brotherhood says:

      Here’s link to new ‘Forum’ space in Nana/Norman’s pad. A few familiar names already commenting.

      https://indyref2.space/forum/topic/put-your-feet-up/?part=3#postid-126

    202. Flower of Scotland says:

      Keep the rUK guessing. Play them at their own game. It’s working!

    203. hackalumpoff says:

      Ian Brotherhood says28 October, 2019 at 12:08 pm
      “Here’s link to new ‘Forum’ space in Nana/Norman’s pad.”

      Just a wee clarification, it’s not our pad, we a squatting at Scotsrenewables pleasure. And there are plenty spare rooms.

    204. HandandShrimp says:

      The whole election thing is a mess but I’m not sure I see any immediate alternatives. Corbyn could have tabled a no confidence vote but hasn’t and he did call for an election almost every PMQ for the last 6 months. Now the EU have taken a No Deal crash out on the 31st off the table it is Boris with his we are “definitely leaving no if’s no buts” that is on the back foot.

      The real problem is that Labour have drifted up shit creek without a paddle. They falter ever more in the polls each day. The SNP look solid. 45% in the opinium poll yesterday would give them a healthy return and give the unionist cause a torn face. However if Boris wins in England we could end up trapped in a very hostile environment with no simple way out. Unless of course that win is closer than Boris would like and he considers letting us go. That might happen but I can’t say it is a basket I would put any eggs.

    205. mike cassidy says:

      So if Posh Boy loses today on a vote for 12/12

      Its have a vote tomorrow for 9/12

      Now clearly 9/12 is a fantastically superior day

      Why else would the SNP and Libdems suggest it

      So the SNP and Libdems are going to look very stupid if they don’t vote with the Tories tomorrow

      And if that goes ahead

      Then

      On the back of that nice bit of collaboration with the Tories that we were told could never happen between the SNP and the Tories

      we can enjoy the spectacle of maybe as many as 59 SNP mps howling at the moon for the next five years

      Joy of joys!

    206. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Angus Brendan MacNeil MP was on the BBC this morning. The report states…

      SNP MP Angus MacNeil on #bbcgms

      ?? He’s “agog” at the SNP backing a 9th Dec election
      ?? Says fellow SNP MPs “jaws were on the floor” at the plan
      ?? Dec election gives Johnson “Christmas & birthdays all rolled into one”
      ?? SNP are “nowhere” on getting a Section 30 for IndyRef

      Oor Angus… maybe time for a new SNP leader at Westminster?

      PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE WILL SOMEONE WORK TO GET SCOTLAND AWAY FROM THIS FESTERING UNION AND THE LETHAL TORIES?

      For the diehard SNP about to 5hit on my head on this thread, the reason I am so angry is the SNP are giving Boris the keys of 10 Downing Street to kill more of my friends…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      If two of your friends were on that wretched list and you had to watch the toxic Tory DWP kill your friends, would you not be angry? How do the SNP diehards allow this to happen?

      I think the answer why Ian Blackford wants a General Election… now, is shown right here…

      Flavible Polling Projection

      CON: 399 (+81)
      LAB: 146 (-116)
      SNP: 53 (+18)
      LDEM: 30 (+18)
      PC: 3 (-1)
      GRN: 1 (-)

      Oh dear.

      The temptation that Iain Blackford will serve out his sinecure in the best club in London with AN EXTRA 18 SNP MPs is clear to see now.

      IMHO this London empire building securing a handsome “Third largest U.K. Party” has turned Ian Blackford’s head. Grown his head as his ego is massaged by the “London Set”. Wannabe Speaker Lord Pete Wishart and the private pals across the aisle are well kent back home in Scotland.

      So there we have it. Thanks to the LONDON SNP PARTY, we are to get five years of Boris Johnson as Scotland’s Tory Prime Minister. For what in exchange? NOTHING.

      Are more dead disabled folk in Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, Inverness and the rest of Scotland a price worth paying for Ian’s empire building ego trip in that billion pound Palave of Westminster? The auld investment banker has his eye on that juicy Westminster “Short Money”. He took his eye of the IndyRef2 ball a long time ago.

      The pollsters forecasting EIGHTEEN additional SNP MPs miss some crucial matters…

      A large tranche of us will be abstaining in the general election IF the SNP FAIL to include permanent transfer of the Section 30 protocol to Holyrood.

      If Ian Blackford gives Boris Johnson his general election without extracting the Section 30 transfer, then two other things will happen…

      1] Pete Wishart will face a “TRUE INDY PARTY” ppc standing against him in the next general election.

      2] Ian Blackford will face a “TRUE INDY PARTY” ppc standing against him in the next general election.

      The thesis and analysis are on this Wings website for the SNP leaders and MPs to read.

      Angus, if your fellow SNP MPs jaws are on the ground over this, please can you do something to get a grip down there?

      There are sufficient folk up here in Scotland so furious with Blackford propping up a Tory government AND giving Boris FIVE years in Downing Street that we HAVE now set in motion the process for forming a new Independence YES political party in Scotland.

      We should not have to be anywhere near considering this.

      Angus, it’s maybe time all the SNP MPs out of the loop got hold of Blackford and ask him what the Hell he is playing at? Please.

    207. Robert Kerr says:

      Totally O/T

      Good News from Buenos Aires.

      The Peronistas are back!

      https://www.rte.ie/news/2019/1028/1086034-argentina-election/

    208. schrodingers cat says:

      What have the snp achieved

      joanna cherry stopped no deal, at least for the moment, and they have ensured that a ge will now happen before we brexit

      many here think this is a mistake, but in taking this line, support for YES has increased to 50%

      without this increase, whether we get a s30 or indyref2 is irrelevant.

      to that end, i support their endevours.

      ask yourself though, will the snp stop brexit? since labour and tories support brexit, this is highly unlikely. boris will very likely win an overall majority. good. support for yes will only continue to rise.

      will boris agree to a s30? i dont know, cameron’s first comment to salmond when they met after the 2011 snp landslide was that indyref1 would never happen but it did. there remains the question of whether wm can legally block the s30

      what has wos achieved? well stus new wos party may not be for everyone, but since he announced the idea, he has argued very successfully about the wisdom of standing another party on the list in he. he has highlighted the nature of the electoral system.

      having more than one indy party on the list will produce the same results. their are 3 unionist parties on the list, this doesnt stop them from hovering up the vast majority of list seats.

      unlike stu i believe we should do this at the next he regardless of whether indyref2 is held before, simply to ensure a grand unionist coalition cant reverse a yes vote.

      i dont need anyones permission to stand 4 list candidates in fife and mid scotland under the YES banner

    209. schrodingers cat says:

      The thesis and analysis are on this Wings website for the SNP leaders and MPs to read
      ————

      no they arnt, stu never proposed standing candidates in constituencies at hollyrood elections, or indeed, ever at westminster elections

      only morons or trolls think this would be a good idea

    210. ScotsRenewables says:

      A large tranche of us will be abstaining in the general election IF the SNP FAIL to include permanent transfer of the Section 30 protocol to Holyrood.

      I love the way posters on here imagine they are speaking for a great swathe of voters when in fact they are just posting on a blog and speaking for themselves.

      I imagine a fair number of voters for all parties are scunnered with their particular party, so I guess the abstentions will all cancel each other out.

      If abstaining is your thing though then Labour are your party !

      I will be voting SNP at the forthcoming GE no matter what, as the chance of a viable pro-indy party coming into existence by September and taking any significant share of the vote is zero. And if abstentions and/or voting for fringe parties deny the SNP seats then hell mend you.

    211. Cubby says:

      Blair Paterson@10.57am

      When will you ever learn to stop posting a lot of rubbish. The SNP are not in bed with the Lib Dems. Total nonsense.

    212. Stuart MacKay says:

      @Al-Stuart

      There are quite a lot of ‘ifs’ in your assertions.

      You’re clearly missing the fact that with 53 SNPs in London and no movement then Blackford’s days in the Palace of Westminster will be well and truly numbered.

      You’re missing the obvious result of the Flavible Polling Projection – that’s how the political situation is going to play out. Boris wins, because Brexit and Labour are finished. With an increase of +81 seats for the Conservatives, what the SNP did or did not do is of little relevance. Their only sensible course of action is the S30 or better – otherwise it’s the chopping block for them too.

    213. Helen Yates says:

      The dream will never die! It seems to me it’s not only dead but it’s already buried, at least for the foreseeable future. sickened doesn’t begin to describe my feelings right now.

    214. Cubby says:

      Britnats or useful idiots posting on Wings will always be able to think up reasons to tell you not to vote for the SNP the party of Scottish independence in a GE. Only more useful idiots will fall for it.

    215. Cubby says:

      Wings BTL stinks these days of Britnats.

    216. Helen Yates says:

      ScotsRenewables says:
      28 October, 2019 at 2:17 pm
      A large tranche of us will be abstaining in the general election IF the SNP FAIL to include permanent transfer of the Section 30 protocol to Holyrood.

      I will vote for the SNP at the upcoming general election simply because we have no viable alternative, I will however do it while gritting my teeth.

    217. scotspatriot says:

      Go on, don’t vote for the SNP, in the forthcoming GE !
      You’ll have assisted the British State, big time !
      Well done you !!

    218. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      ScotsRenewables @ 14:17,

      Amen to that. And shouting corrosive disengagement tactics in acres of bold print doesn’t make what he wrote any more true or representative either.

      Whatever our impatience for more evident progress – and many of us undoubtedly feel that – to refuse to support the SNP at this crucial juncture would be the self-evident height of folly. A repeat of 2017? Who but our opponents could possibly benefit from such an insane act of self-harm?

      Deliberate mischief-making or childish pique? – we’ve seen both. There has been a spate of fools and knaves busy on here of late. Some people should be getting badges saying “Whingers” not “Wingers”. All I can say is that if you can’t offer some useful insights and positive encouragements to stick together and see this tricky thing through to the end, whatever your personal reservations, you’re not contributing. Hollow claims of support or “being representative” impress no-one – it’s productive thinking that is the proof of genuine support.

    219. mike cassidy says:

      The SNP’s open strategy is to bet the bank on being given a section30 that would legitimise an indyref2.

      There’s nothing britnatish about pointing out that there is no evidence that it will be given.

      The only thing changing that game is holding the balance of power.

      Anything less and it’s moonhowling til the next generation …

    220. dadsarmy says:

      You have to wonder which one is pinstripe. Or which ones 🙁

      Then there’s Carlaw Jackson, Murdo Fraser, Adam Tomkins and all the rest of the merry crew.

    221. twathater says:

      Does anyone on this site actually think that the SNP can stop brexshit , not so long ago we were all complaining that the SNP were wrong to be supporting a PV because that would undermine our reasons for indy , and they should just let brexshit happen and concentrate on our independence , now because they are going for a GE we are raging that the tories will probably win that GE with a majority and doris will shaft us jocks

      Labour have fucked us over continuously for at least 80 years and are still doing so , by their will they won’t they ,will they agree to a sect 30 maybes aye maybes naw maybe when the coos come hame ,maybes if wir awe good boys and girls

      Fuck it have a GE , elect as many SNP candidates as possible , DEMAND a sect 30 order from whatever TWAT is in power , and if refused or now is not the time , take the bastards to the ICJ and PROVE that the union is corrupt

      Enough with all this politicking pish , no matter who is in power we SCOTS will ALWAYS be SHAFTED . The rest of the uk don’t give a flying fuck for us so let’s reverse that ideology and look after SCOTLAND
      And if Nicola and the SNP don’t do it , Stuart get yir big boy troosers looked out you’re needed

    222. dadsarmy says:

      Unionist objectives – see it from their eyes:

      1). There’s a General Election coming up – discourage people from voting for the SNP.

      Why? Because if the punters are really STUPID enough to believe the fakers and the SNP get only 29 MPs, then that’s it for Independence for at least another 5 years and look at 1979 which some incredibly obvious fakers will refer to, it took neaerly 30 years for the SNP to get over 6 MPs again. (fx: rubs hands) that’s it till 2047. Get less than 40 and the SNP are going backwards, we’ve had peak SNP – and Indy.

      2). Perusade the dumbass readers that it’s a waste of time going to the Rally on Saturday.

      Why? Because if there’s less than 10,000 it’ll be “Sturgeon can’t even get 10,000 to march with her for Independence” [1]. Game over for Indy. So the square is too small, it’s raining, why did it take Sturgeon so long, her speech is crap, she’s crap, the SNP are crap, Blacksheep [2] is crap, we’re doomed, violence in the streets, UDI, look at Quebec.

      [1] Do you seriously think the Unionists care if it’s a Rally or a March? They’ll already be deliberately conflating the march that starts at 11.30 which has nothing to do with the Rally in George Square.

      [2] Yes I know, but look at who misspells it regularly.

      And so on ad infinitum. Maxima carborundum – wear the buggers down with unionist lies.

      Cop on dumbasses.

    223. Liz g says:

      Cubby @ 2.38
      Aw don’t worry Cubby,it’s too little to late.
      Most new reader’s BTL will visit in the later part of the Indy campaign.
      Right now regular Wingers only engage if they can be bothered.
      We’re all in touch with each other in one form or another now, and involved with other projects for Indy,but we haven’t really gone anywhere 🙂

      We know the value of Wings fine well come the day, and in the meantime watching these dubious posts has value too,they’re not as clever as they think they are!
      I reckon the Rev could make a fortune writing a book after Independence, he has their internet history and an uncanny ability to find what’s relevant to expose…. And they handed it to him for free.
      LOL

    224. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Cubby @ 14:36,

      For once I do believe we agree!

      I didn’t approve of trying to shut down open debate about alternative strategies for going forward, and I have been chafing as much as anyone on here about an apparent lack of progress, but we have a responsibility to be grown-ups about this as well. We have to be humble enough to recognise that there may be things going on in WM and elsewhere of which we necessarily know nothing as yet, and we need to trust our leadership simply because they have earned it by hard work and dedication. Our correct response is not a self-indulgent “my road or the high road”.

      If there have been mistakes or misjudgements in difficult times, well, that’s human. We may eventually have the luxury of hindsight to pick all that apart at our leisure, but now is clearly not that time. We need to be sticking together and resolutely looking forward. There is an election coming up that we need to be fully-resolved to win as convincingly as possible, as visible proof of our solid democratic underpinning.

      Empty generic whinging, whether about the quality of many current postings or the assumed “misguided strategy” of the SNP leadership, only threatens to drown each thread in a sea of unfocussed misery. We need ideas and hope, not useless “white noise” which only serves our opponents.

    225. @cubby 2.36 well said, totally true

      difficult to see the point of Wings at the moment

    226. @Robert J Sutherland 3.23

      If we hang around long enough may be Stu or Peter Bell or some of the pond life currently inhabiting this site will tell us activists for independence where the magic wand is hidden.

      If they can find it great – but until then negative harping is worse than useless

    227. Liz g says:

      Robert J Sutherland @ 2.55
      Hi Robert J
      Hope you’re feeling better.
      Sorry you didn’t make it to the night out but if you’re well enough for this Saturday!
      We’ve booked Dows from 11am for Wingers to have a place to meet up,have a drink,get a seat, to eat a packed lunch,use the loo or just dump their stuff.
      And obviously stay on in town after the event.
      All are welcome 🙂

    228. schrodingers cat says:

      mike cassidy says:
      Anything less and it’s moonhowling til the next generation …
      ————

      no. we ask for a s30, if refused, we challenge it legally. all the time, support for yes will continue to increase

      if the legal challenge is delayed or refused, then we force holyrood election, I believe their is enough support for other indy parties on the list, ensuring the unionists get wiped out.

      if wm continue to refuse s30, we move to a campaign of civil disobedience

      blockade grangemouth and aberdeen airport.

      33% of uk petrol comes from grangemouth by lorry tankers. blocking helicopter flights at aberdeen would bring oil production to a halt.

      the campaign will go on, you can howl at the moon if you wish, just dont get in the way of others who prefer to continue the fight

      jeezo, the whinging from some folk in the yes movement is painful to hear. have a look around you and see what other nations need to do win their independence and count your lucky stars

    229. Gary says:

      There are far too many SNP westminster MPs and prospective parliamentary candidates rubbing there hands at the comfortable lifestyle there.

      Far too many Egos and careerists. We used to criticise liebour for that.

      Either the SNP is playing an absoulute blinder or are benefitting from the utter incompetence of the unionist parties.

    230. dadsarmy says:

      @Gary “There are far too many SNP westminster MPs and prospective parliamentary candidates rubbing there hands at the comfortable lifestyle there.

      Nice one Gary, so let’s vote them all out as vengeance, that’ll cramp their style, they won’t have their comfortable lifestyle any more wil they, mnerr mnerr mnerr, that’ll teach them.

      Meanwhile that’s Independence bye-bye for another 30 years.

      But you knew that, didn’t you Danny?

    231. Gary says:

      I see you are saying “cleverly not get a second indyref out of it” again. And you HAVE outlined a plan for how that is possible ie SNP vote with the Tories to get Brexit done in exchange for a second referendum. Which is a little naive, at least, or suicidal at worst.

      Politics doesn’t operate in a vacuum.

      The perfect indy vote is Scotland parting ways with the UK with BOTH still remaining in the EU. That way the ‘Better Together’ group CAN’T argue about the consequences of a ‘hard border’ with the EU etc and how it would cut off all trade. Because ONE thing we do know about the unionists is that they’ll turn on their heel and argue against whatever it is that they just said, and that sometimes that actually works!

    232. schrodingers cat says:

      dadsarmy says:
      @Gary

      —————

      fnarr fnarr 🙂

    233. scotspatriot says:

      Gary…..you don’t know what you’re talking about.
      Are you sure you’re not typing in Green Ink ?

    234. dadsarmy says:

      @cat
      Next we’ll be getting people posting “Don’t vote YES because it’s a referendum and we shouldn’t accept Westminster Rule”.

      Right-o.

    235. crazycat says:

      @ anyone it may concern (and a bit belated because I’m catching up on the threads)

      I know gardennat, and he is NOT a plant (though he does grow them).

    236. Bob Mack says:

      @Cubby,

      Its just a simple fact people feel different degrees of urgency towards a particular goal. You have to respect that.

      Some will blame various people or organisations they hold responsible for that frustration.

      Its just human nature.

      Ps I wil! buy you a pint if your in Dows on Saturday.

    237. schrodingers cat says:

      @dads

      or worse, ken will come on here and tell folk to vote snp 1 and 2 in the ge and spoil their ballot papers 🙂

    238. callmedave says:

      That despicable bearded ‘Scot’ Mundell and the ither chancer Stephen Kerr throw wee keppies to Nicky Morgan Minister for digital Technology roll out by running down the SNP Gov on broadband again.

      Naturally she joyfully smashes it for six!

      Oh now Andrew Bowie another Scots Tory piles in too…Jolly Hockey sticks.

      🙁

    239. mike cassidy says:

      Mr Cat.

      It was meant to say moonhowling til the next general election

      Cos that’s the logical outcome of the SNP’s approach.

      Section30,please

      No!

      Ad infinitum til a GE where they hold the balance of power

      Realpolitik as opposed to Politepolitik.

      Whether they would back a campaign of civil disobedience.

      They could start with not taking their seats at Westminster

    240. schrodingers cat says:

      mike cassidy says:

      Realpolitik as opposed to Politepolitik.

      Whether they would back a campaign of civil disobedience.

      They could start with not taking their seats at Westminster

      —————

      no, the snp cannot support civil disobedience, at least in public, neither can they support a wos vote 2 in public, even if they agreed with the idea. they would run foul of the electoral commission.

      it is their job to follow all democratic and peaceable means at their disposal, civil disobedience isnt their job. its ours.

      walking out of westminster for good, mmm, yes, but as a tactic, it is a use once only weapon. for the moment, catalan mps still go to madrid, they are only waiting for the right moment, the point where it will have the maximum impact.

      we should do the same

      so yes, if the snp follow the path before us and wm still refuse a s30, then “howling at the moon” is all they can do, that is the snp’s job. they are the political wing of the indy movement.

      eg, we can organise a dont pay the bbc licence campaign. mps cant. they would be arrested and excluded from political dicourse, ie shut up. this is exactly what the brit establishment wants

      we, however, are not mps and have other options open to us.

      leave the politicians to get on with howling at the moon, it is what they do.

      why not put forward your ideas for civil disobedience if the s30 is refused?

    241. Clapper57 says:

      No sane person would believe any of Bojo’s Brexit PITCH or that nonsense about him rather dying in a DITCH that Halloween No Deal date was always gonna SWITCH so yet another Bojo Brexit plan encounters yet another GLITCH his premiership is going the same way as that Theresa May WITCH the lesson learned being that political life is sometimes a F**$$%* BITCH.

      After three years plus now Labour are starting to TWITCH telling other parties what to do well that’s a bit RICH they’ve hummed and hawed now they’re offering more of their usual shite SANDWICH with Corbyn up in Scotland acting like a uber Unionist SNITCH blaming the SNP cause he sees his party in Scotland encountering a major HITCH.

      Rainbow Tories Yellow Red and dark money BLUE I really think it’s time that they all just F**%%** WITHDREW because for us Scots they collectively offer nothing NEW and the peeps on here know that is so absolutely F**%%$* TRUE so now is the time we Scots bade them all ADIEU no more Unionist parties because independence really is long OVERDUE and we are sick of paddling up shit creek inside the Union’s shit CANOE but peeps let’s not forget it’s been peeps just like the Rev STU who have tried to help us in fighting for our country’s RESCUE so with his help let’s try and see this shit THROUGH cause I for one am of a mind that if we don’t go soon they’ll have us stuck to them like F**$$** SUPERGLUE.

    242. Lollysmum says:

      O/T
      For all those who say they were never taught their history, here’s a way to get some of that knowledge out there. A yesser brought up as a Tory was horrified when she found out that everything she’d been taught was a lie. She started researching archives for articles about Scotland’s history & set up a website: Random Scottish History.

      She also decided that people really ought to know what the Treaty of Union says to give them ammunition to fight the cause of independence. So she set up a crowdfunder

      https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/treaty-of-union-articles

      with the aim of producing an illustrated book in time for Christmas. With 3 days to run it’s funded to 69% & hoping to get it over the line so she can donate copies to schools so that pupils today will know at least that part of their history.

      The books will be hard backed limited editions. there will be no further print runs of them so do yourself a favour donate more than a fiver & get a copy for yourself or your favourite wean. I’ve donated twice to get two copies. This is too important to miss & will be something to treasure.

      Can Wingers help this get over the line?

      Thanks all oh & see you Saturday in George Square 🙂

    243. Lollysmum says:

      @Liz g at 2.38pm

      Ooh I look forward to the revelations.
      Maybe see you at Dows Saturday or the Wings stall. 😉

    244. Liz g says:

      Lollysmum @ 6.19
      LOL…. See ye there xxx

    245. Dan says:

      Long day at work and just catching up now, but feel the need to make this post.

      dadsarmy says: at 9:45 pm

      Give me a shout when you’ve caught up at the back …

      Oh, I didn’t know Indy campaigning was a fucking competition.
      Genuine Indy campaigners, both new and old all do what we can in whatever way we can due to our personal circumstances.
      There is absolutely no need to try to diminish anybody’s efforts to try to get one over on somebody.

      @dadsarmy at 3:18 pm

      Your post incorporates many individual aspects plucked from different commenters’ posts and you have pooled those aspects together to build a narrative that no single person conforms to.
      It’s a piece of piss to take one particular thing a poster says, strip away context and make that poster appear to be carrying out “unionist objectives”.

      EG: Tell readers “This forum is dying”.

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-unbreakable-lock/comment-page-2/#comment-2496597

      dadsarmy says: at 3:42 pm

      @Gary…
      … But you knew that, didn’t you Danny?

      Stated by someone using a second username…
      For clarity, could you please confirm when you state “Danny” you are referring to the previous but now long banned poster called Danny and not myself, as we wouldn’t want current btl readers to mistakenly draw the wrong conclusion. TIA

      PS. I’ll still buy you a pint if we happen to meet up at some point. lol

    246. robertknight says:

      If this latest ‘cunning plan’ falls flat on its arse then next year’s SNP Annual Conference best not be held in Dunoon – Yessers will have most of the senior SNP delegates traipsing up and down the beach on all fours with children strapped to their backs, for it’ll have been proven that’s all they’re good for! Anyone fancy an ice-cream?

    247. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Scottish Renewables,

      You fail to answer the question of why Ian Blackstock is joining up with “Jo Deputy PM Swinson” to support Boris Johnson so the Tories and LibDems get their General Election. While Blackford leaves the SNP with NOTHING! The LARGE TRANCHE of people that joined the SNP after IndyRef1 have been shafted… by Ian Blackford

      SRenewables, you are also a failure in your snide comment.

      In 2015 I joined the SNP and paid my dues. I had hope. I attended the SNP Branch meetings. If you are really an SNP member you WILL recognise the point I now make…

      It is a verifiable fact that each and every SNP Constituency Branch had a “LARGE TRANCHE” of former Labour voters who were disgusted with the way NEW LABOUR had ignored their duties and treated their electorate with arrogant contempt. Ergo many of us joined the SNP.

      SRenewables you know and I know that in many branches there were difficult relationships as SNP Branches were flooded with former Labour refugees!

      I experienced great courtesy from the long term SNP members. But myself and 24 new members in a room full of 45 SNP members in total, felt like we were second class citizens. We were politely tolerated by the diehards and fundies. Our votes helped ensure 56 SNP MPs. But we were never truly accepted. You typify one of the reasons why.

      I was at the hugely attended SNP conferences with Alex Salmond handing over to Nicola Sturgeon.

      But with 4 years of Nicola’s well meaning wish washy torpor, it should be clear to even the most dimmest of renewable lights that those days are gone. The most recent SNP conference was a shadow of the heady days following the IndyRef1 rebound.

      So I am pretty sure, having seen the polls, the charts, and with the eyes in my head that the SNP are sadly on a self-inflicted downward trajectory. Or do you dispute the loss of many SNP MPs in 2017? How would that happen without a LARGE TRANCHE of people who used to vote SNP leaving?

      Treating the “new” SNP Members like 5hit on just a “blog” as you put it, is not going to help. How are you stopping those of us headed for the exit door from leaving permanently?

      I am listening to Jo Swinson in parliament bragging about “her” deal “supported by the Scottish National Party” and that fills me with disgust.

      Maybe you and other SNP diehards should go and read Angus MacNeil’s article on page 4 today in The National where he says he will defy the SNP whip. Why???

      So, Scottish Renewables, you ask many questions and poke a lot. In reciprocation, please tell me this…

      What the fcuk is Ian Blackford doing getting in bed with the LidDems and Tories WITHOUT extracting a Section 30 statutory, permanent transfer to Holyrood?

      Maybe time for you to start answering some questions on this “blog” rather than being cheerleader for the SPS (SNP Paranoia Section).

      ————-

      Scottish Renewables says…

      I love the way posters on here imagine they are speaking for a great swathe of voters when in fact they are just posting on a blog and speaking for themselves.

    248. Jock McDonnell says:

      Where’s Ken BTW ?

      Anyway, for all the criticism that is thrown at the SNP, it should not be forgotten that people like Mike Russell, John Swinney & Derek MacKay are fully committed to Independence. If you have met them or listened to them, you will know this. And the FM is too. Maybe its not as gung-ho as some of us would wish, but NS has not been in control of events. Westminster could have changed the game at any time.
      Now the end-game is upon us. Its eyes on the prize folks, not wishing things had been done differently.

    249. Gary says:

      @ dadsarmy 3.42

      I didn’t suggest vote them all out at all.
      But far too many have been seduced by the Westminster lifestyle.

      Many a red Clydesider was tamed by the Westminster system. The end result was they list their passion for the cause.
      The SNP is in danger of this too.

    250. Footsoldier says:

      Apart from the SNP, is there a central point of contact anywhere which joins together all the independence and Yes supporting organisations and groups, or is it all an uncoordinated endeavour?

    251. Fairliered says:

      Footsoldier says:
      28 October, 2019 at 7:30 pm
      Apart from the SNP, is there a central point of contact anywhere which joins together all the independence and Yes supporting organisations and groups, or is it all an uncoordinated endeavour?

      IndyApp

    252. Mist001 says:

      So, they’re going ahead with a 12 December GE, the thing that Iain Blackford described as ‘barking mad’, yet he’s supporting it. WTF?

      And Swinson pressing for a 9 December GE, so she could get the student votes. After Cleggs flip-flop on tuition fees, why does Swinson think she’ll get support from any students?

      WTFx2.

      And Labour even bothering to contest any GE.

      WTFx3!!

      Who ARE these people???

    253. schrodingers cat says:

      Al-Stuart says:
      Scottish Renewables,

      You fail to answer the question of why Ian Blackstock is joining up with “Jo Deputy PM Swinson” to support Boris Johnson so the Tories and LibDems get their General Election

      ——————

      1. the snp will win big in the ge in scotland

      2. once the tories win big in england, we will finally know what brexit actually means

      3. then we can launch indyref2

      whats not to like.

      a ge is going to happen, dont doubt it. the only question is how it will come about. all parties are wary of being seen to support the tories or being blamed by the electorate for bringing down the government. historically, the electorate punish parties for bringing down governments.

      this goat rodeo is almost played out

      your claims that the snp have sold out are as pathetic as they are shrill.

      you fight the battles that are in front of you, not those you imagine or wish into existence. next battle is a ge, priority is to get as many snp mps elected and unionists binned as possible.

      if you aint with us, get out of the way

    254. schrodingers cat says:

      that’s snp policy btw

    255. dadsarmy says:

      You couldn’t make it up!

    256. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

      “Trumps plan for the NHS” on Channel 4 now (or +1 in an hour):

      Dispatches has found that secret meetings have taken place between senior civil servants and representatives of US pharmaceutical firms where the price the NHS pays for its drugs has been discussed.

      A source with knowledge of the trade talks told Dispatches that British trade negotiators have already held six official meetings with their US counterparts to talk about what might be in any trade deal.

      Precise details of what has been discussed has been kept strictly confidential. But a Whitehall source has told us that drug pricing has been on the table in all six meetings.

      The source told Dispatches how US drugs firms have been given direct access to British trade officials.

      Dispatches has been told that as well as meeting with the US government, senior British trade officials have held face-to-face meetings with representatives of US drug firms, none of which have been declared.

      Our source also told us that there have been five secret meetings between senior British civil servants and the US pharma industry. Two in Washington and three in London.

      The most recent being in August after Boris Johnson had become Prime Minister. The source told us that drug “price caps” were discussed in at least one of these meetings.

      We asked the Department for International Trade for a response on what we’ve discovered.

      They said: “The sustainability of the NHS is an absolute priority for the government. We could not agree to any proposals or medicines pricing or access that would put NHS finances at risk or reduce clinician and patient choice.”

      Dispatches discovers how Donald Trump’s allies and US drug giants want to force the NHS to pay more for US medicines.

      This is what “The Atlantic Bridge” and the rest of the Tory Disaster Capitalists have planned for Post Brexit UK.

      It won’t be on any BritNat Election Leaflets though!

    257. schrodingers cat says:

      Footsoldier says:

      Apart from the SNP, is there a central point of contact anywhere which joins together all the independence and Yes supporting organisations and groups, or is it all an uncoordinated endeavour?

      Fairliered says:
      IndyApp

      its a grassroots org, join your local yes group and go with the flow. why do we need a central point of contact? another blair jenkins etc?

      200,000 yes supporters managed to organise a rally without any yes scotland. whats the problem?

    258. ahundredthidiot says:

      schrodingers cat @8:02

      Point 1 – already achieved

      Point 2 – That can be reasonably predicted, and if true…..

      Point 3 – May well become a moot point due to Point 2

    259. Defo says:

      I imagine ‘our’ Tory MP’s are champing at the bit for their December date with destiny.
      Now there’s a happy thought
      🙂
      Maybe the Proclaimers could do us a tune
      “Ross Thompson no more, Bad Hair no more, Kerr nae mair ….

    260. Col.Blimp IV says:

      Al-Stuart :

      I have only recently started reading this blog and was frankly appalled by the antics of what you describe as the SPS and their acolytes from day one.

      The way they almost invariably attack the motives of anyone who is even mildly critical of any aspect of party policy, tactics, or apparent inertia, without making much of an attempt to rebuff any of the points raised – beyond invoking the “need to know” defence.

      This leads me to suspect that they may be the real fifth columnists who they claim to be defending the independence movement from.

      Just a thought, but who would want to belong to a community that is dominated by a bunch of smug supercilious arseholes, maybe these 77th brigade bods are smarter we have been led to believe.

    261. dadsarmy says:

      Some try all the same.

    262. schrodingers cat says:

      ahundredthidiot

      this is the agenda, get with it

      we need to go through these phases, regardless of how purile we think them

      the democratic road map must be exhausted before we start digging out our claymores from the thatch

      at which point, the silence from the biggest detractors on this site, will be deafening

      its comin’ yet fur a’ that……. etc etc

    263. schrodingers cat says:

      ahundredthidiot says:
      schrodingers cat @8:02

      Point 1 – already achieved, …….and then set back in 2017

      Point 2 – That can be reasonably predicted,……. predictions are wishful thinking for the impatient. we now need certainty

      Point 3 – May well become a moot point due to Point 2……… may well, might, could. should……. if wishes were winged arseholes, this place would be a fukcin airport

    264. schrodingers cat says:

      Defo says:
      28 October, 2019 at 8:18 pm
      I imagine ‘our’ Tory MP’s are champing at the bit for their December date with destiny.
      Now there’s a happy thought
      ?
      Maybe the Proclaimers could do us a tune
      “Ross Thompson no more, Bad Hair no more, Kerr nae mair …

      ——————

      lol, brilliant

      im stealing that meme 🙂

    265. Col.Blimp IV says:

      schrodingers cat says:

      “2. once the tories win big in england, we will finally know what brexit actually means”

      Water under the bridge, I know – But we would have known that yonks ago, had we not been a party to all the “the electorate are morons who did not know what they were voting for Bullshit”.

    266. schrodingers cat says:

      Col.Blimp IV says:
      Water under the bridge, I know – But we would have known that yonks ago,
      —————–

      would have, might have, should have………….

      but we didnt, neither did/do the electorate.

      very shortly everyone will know for a fact and those who speak in conditionals will be relegated to the cheap seats

    267. schrodingers cat says:

      we would have known that yonks ago,

      alternatively

      we would have been after having had knowledge of that yonks ago….

      gigo

    268. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Al-Stuart @ 18:41,

      All this heavy-duty shouty negativity, it’s wearying and counter-productive. If that’s not your intention, then wise up please. Otherwise we’ll be drawing our own conclusions.

      Your call.

      ————

      Col.Blimp IV @ 20:19,

      I have been on the receiving end of this tiny set of people more than most, and it has had no effect whatsoever on my committment to supporting the party in their crucial current efforts. Why should it? The SNP isn’t responsible for every self-identified supporter (whether merely short of interpersonal skills or plain outright fake), so why even bother to make an issue of it in the context of the public sphere, whether in a coming election or whatever?

      It’s the policies and strategies that matter, surely?

    269. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 20:51, etc., etc.,

      Some pertinent and delightfully-succinct postings today, s~cat.

      Not to mention some very welcome light relief, heh, heh.

    270. I thought with FTPA you needed 2/3 of the house to vote for a GE or a vote of no confidence,

      so how,why,where can an election be called with just a simple majority vote in the house,

      what is/was the point of FTPA.

    271. Big Del says:

      Sky news there 9.05. SNP want an election before the Alex Salmond court case in case news of a cover up by Nichola Sturgeon comes out.. how do they get away with this stuff????

    272. Defo says:

      Glad to be a service Cat.
      There’s bound to be a “we’re you up for Thompson “ type moment to relish.
      I can almost see the puir wee soul now, stood on the scaffold, petted lip a quivering, as a new reality unfolds.
      ‘Boris will see me alright! Won’t he?’

    273. schrodingers cat says:

      you are most welcome Mr R.J. Sutherland

      but i believe my point is well made, what everyone wants is certainty………to that end, this exactly what the unionists have been avoiding

      had nicola known in sept 2018 what brexit actually meant, we would now be knee deep into indyref2. the unionists ploy is to avoid certainty, even today, ian blackford is unwilling to support the tory ge bill, why? he doesnt trust them to call a ge before 1st feb etc, or try to ram bojos deal through the commons.

      the reason bojo is doing this is because the uncertainty is undermining his opposition, including us

      but i believe a ge will remove this uncertainty in scotland and will deliver another 2-3% support for yes. I no longer care how england votes.

      we will cross that bridge when we come to it. one battle at a time etc

    274. schrodingers cat says:

      Defo says:
      28 October, 2019 at 9:13 pm
      Glad to be a service Cat.

      ———

      thus spake zarathustra ……………..or was it marvin the paranoid android ? 🙂

    275. Ravelin says:

      So I got the weirdest of political leaflets in the post from the Tories today. Usual standard stuff, “only we can beat the SNP here”, “don’t give Nicola the excuse for a second indy ref” etc. What is unusual though is who the message is from… Ruth Davidson. Gordon Westminster constituency leaflet but not one mention of the local Tory MP Gordon Clark, never mind being in his name. Its not even from the Scottish Tory party leader, em whatshisname, either, nor, unsurprisingly thier UK party leader, Boris. No, the leaflet is a message from a Holyrood backbench list MP, one who resigned as leader and is on record as not likely to seek re-election. Bizarre. The Cult of Ruth just doesn’t seem to want to die.

    276. Bradford Millar says:

      so the SNP are to wait and wait and wait and wait until Labour grow a pair meanwhile the vast majority of Yessers want action NOW!! …. Rev you need to get a grip and drop the door step sized chip from your shoulder mate

      to many on here posting with a agenda … it’s the Yes movement that is moving things and not Wings, wings like the SNP are not the YES movement they are part of it …. SNP are reacting to demands by the greater yes movement …. how long are we to wait for Corbyn and Labour to act … there MPs are in utter fear of an election …. The EU is not going to continue giving more extensions the way Labour are going we are gonna exit out of the EU on a no deal by default unless Labour grow a pair

    277. Mist001 says:

      @ Big Del

      That’s exactly what I posted here last night (or the night before). It makes sense to me.

    278. Mist 001

      as usual, the devil is in the detail.

      If we get a December the 9th election it means that Parliament shuts up shop this friday – 2nd november, so that they have the 5 week run up to the election.

      This stops Boris from finding some way of getting his bill through the House of Commons this week. Calling a 12th december election, gives him this week to try and get the bill passed. Then calling the election, winning a majority and we’re out of the EU before Christmas. He almost has enough support to get this bill through.

      This early call for the 9th loses the three days now and forces him to have to campaign as a loser.

      Detail…

    279. schrodingers cat says:

      Robert J. Sutherland

      i have had my differences with you on this site in the past but compared to the dross posted by 50% of the riff raff i see today, you’re comments are a breath of fresh air

      ps, really glad to see dadsarmy again

    280. schrodingers cat says:

      you’re = your

      soz

    281. Yasmin says:

      Blackford, blackman, black are not acting in the interest of Scotland. They should be demanding section 30 agt for their votes. Blackford is dreadful and needs to go. Salmond is greatly missed.

    282. Defo says:

      Cat
      I think it was Rimmer
      Which reminds me, Ross had his behavioural inquisition yet?
      Max Bygraves was overrated imho

    283. Phronesis says:

      This is how to exclude citizens from health care, deny their human rights and dignity. Trumpety Trump and Boris Trump don’t care about the NHS or poor people, but it’s not just the poor who should worry. Anyone with an asset – house, savings-anyone with a long term medical condition or precarious employment status should be worried if the Tories sell out the NHS. Scotland’s NHS is worth fighting for, England and Wales’ NHS is worth fighting for. The demise of the NHS is the end of democracy across the UK, but the demise of the UK need not be the end of the NHS in Scotland, England and Wales.

      ‘In 2016, over 40% of all hospital visits resulted in a surprise bill. Without a decisive political solution, they will only proliferate further as insurance companies narrow networks and doctor shortages strain hospitals’

      https://www.golocalprov.com/business/horrors-of-surprise-medical-bills-mindsetter-rickman

      ‘Studies suggest that surprise billing occurs in 20 percent of emergency-room visits — though the rate could be as high as 42 percent. The practice often happens when certain physicians at a hospital — for example, radiologists or anesthesiologists — issue a separate bill because they do not have a contract with the patients’ insurer regarding charges for specific services, even though the hospital is in network…
      If Congress fails to stand up to special interests here, what hope is there for legislation that addresses bigger health-care issues, such as exorbitant drug prices? It is enough to make believers in representative democracy scream in disgust’

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/09/04/no-one-likes-surprise-medical-bills-so-why-does-congressional-action-seem-so-unlikely/

      “Obamacare unfortunately will explode. It’s going to have a very bad year.”President Donald Trump, March 24, 2017 (Pear et al. 2017, A1)
      The sabotage strategies of the Trump administration probably contributed to some decline in exchange enrollments, but stopped far short of causing them to implode…premiums on the exchanges would soar as less healthy people who needed more care disproportionately enrolled. The CBO estimated that 13 million would lose health insurance over a decade as the result of repeal… Rather, and especially among Republicans, ideologically driven policy elites reinforced by the conservative media, the libertarian Koch network, and major donors often pursue options far to the right of the public and many members of their own party’

      https://academic.oup.com/publius/article/48/3/396/4982766

      ‘The U.S. health system is characterized by considerable geographic variation in insurance coverage, access to care, health status, quality of care, and cost of care. As shown in Exhibit 1, 2017 uninsured rates among nonelderly adults with incomes below 200 percent of the federal poverty level (FPL) varied sixfold across states (from 7% in Massachusetts and Vermont to 43% in Texas)… An estimated 44 million people now have health plans that leave them underinsured, with cost protections deteriorating fastest in employer plans, the source of coverage for the majority of Americans (which was least affected by the ACA). With health care cost outpacing growth in median incomes nationally, it’s not surprising that recent polls show the cost of health care to be a top concern of voters… Since human capital is key to the nation’s long-term economic growth — and health is a critical component of human capital — declining health status in any state can have national implications for the ability of the U.S workforce to rise to the challenges of an evolving global economy’

      https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2019/jul/federalism-affordable-care-act-health-reform-2020-election

    284. McDuff says:

      “It’s the yes movement that is moving things”
      Maybe you could explain to me in detail exactly how the yes movement is “moving things”.

    285. dadsarmy says:

      Good to see you again cat, I was thinking of giving up with all the defeatist drivel, much of which actually works out as anti-Indy, whether intended or not – a high proportion being intended by stealth.

    286. anyone find the magic wand yet?

      Oh! too busy criticising the SNP?

      Given up exposing the MSM then?

      Such dedication to Scottish Independence. . . . not

    287. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      schrodingers cat @ 21:44,

      Yes I know, but only on means not ends, and we’re on the same page where things stand right now. Which is just as it should be. When the going gets tough, that’s when you find out who your real friends are (and otherwise).

      Despite the ongoing uncertainties, I believe we’re closer now than we have ever been. Hence the new disengagement play that’s afoot, straight out of the Black Book of tricks.

      It can be too easy to overlook that our opponents are fairly “backs to the wall” now, and we should take real encouragement from that.

    288. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Liz g @ 15:31,

      Hi Liz,

      Thanks for asking. A bad cold is one ordinary misery, but it takes a week of heavy-duty meds on top to get me stable again. But I’m getting there.

      And you can be sure that I’ll be there on Sat or bust. George Square 2019. I’m going to be one of those many faces in a photo that will take a place of honour beside the one of 100 years ago. Unmissable!

      Be there peeps. Fill the square to overflowing and make history!

      Thanks also for the heads-up about Dows, Liz. I will likely be with a bunch of family, but anyway I’ll be sure to pop in.

    289. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Robert,

      Who, might I ask are “we” to “draw our own conclusions” that you refer to? Have you become the Queen and adopted the Royal wee (sic)? Do you own this forum? Are you the school prefect or something?

      As for heavy duty negativity…

      The reason I get very angry with the SNP (that is spelt “angry” not “anti”) is that Ian Blackford is teaming-up with Jo Swinson to give Boris Johnson FIVE years as prime minister.

      That is, at this time a heavy-duty FACT.

      Many of us, approximately 81,140 family members have witnessed or had to attend FAI/ HM Coroners because of the deaths of their loved ones with disabilities by this wretched festering Tory Government and the lethal LibDem ConDem government before them.

      http://www.calumslist.org

      Robert Sutherland do you think this is a joke? Clearly you tire easily at the tragedies befalling other people because of your tender sensibilities. My condolences for your upset.

      I have no time for people like you anymore. Two of my friends are on that fcuking death list. I hate Tories and am becoming less fond of the SNP as the SNP Westminster leader goes rogue and palls up with the LibDems and Tories.

      As for me wising up, I have your number. I know what you and your ilk are at. Power for the sake of power and Devil take the hindmost. At least the Tories know they are the lying nasty party. What sickens me to the soul are self righteous priccks with the holier than thou attitude. That SNP vote winning policy of “respecting those with disabilities”. Aye right. That promise grows faker every day Blackford grows nearer to Jo Swinson.

      Well here is your dose of heavy-duty…

      If Ian Blackford MP, leader of the SNP at Westminster votes tomorrow to allow a Tory government 5 years in power under right wing Boris Johnson, then Ian Blackford will have the bl00d of the disabled on his hands and he will never, ever get rid of that stain. He will be reminded of it for every day that his votes kept the Tories in power.

      Robert Sutherland, I am not playing at politics. I am worried about real world people and the never ending cull of the weak and vulnerable.

      So you wise up.

      As part of that wising up, I suggest you read The National of today’s date (page 4) and consider what SNP stalwart Angus MacNeli MP has to say about Ian. Lackford’s unholy mess.

      There is a time when the debate ends and life changing decisions have to be made. Newsflash on that…

      Time’s up.

      Either cr@p or get aff the pot.

      ————–

      Robert J. Sutherland says:
      28 October, 2019 at 8:53 pm
      Al-Stuart @ 18:41,

      All this heavy-duty shouty negativity, it’s wearying and counter-productive. If that’s not your intention, then wise up please. Otherwise we’ll be drawing our own conclusions.

    290. dadsarmy says:

      Oh dear God. So you have Blackman and Jardine saying the reason they want the 9th not the 12th is becuase they don’t want to dance to BoJo’s tune. Which is going to impress the electorate not at all, to anyone who’s not them it sounds totally pathetic. Then you’ve got Murray who’s basically admitted that Labour want Brexit done because then labour have a chance in the next election. The only one who made sense and said things in terms any electorate could understand even if not agree with was Masterton.

      No wonder the UK Parliament is caboomed, all the opposition really is shite. On the other hand maybe it’s the tactics of mistake and all three are secretly and conspiritorially playing it well, and the idea is to make BoJo overconfident so he keeps voting for an early GE. I’ll go for that one in hope, with a belief factor of vanishingly near zero!

      Oh look, there’s an overhead pig.

    291. Cubby says:

      Just had my personal letter from big mooth Ruth delivered today. She has got to have the biggest brass neck of all the Tories to go with her big mooth. She is eventually retiring from politics and has taken up her outside job with a lobbying firm but can send out a political letter telling you to vote for the Tories to stop the big bad SNP wolf from destroying Scotland. No mention of the Brexit shambles of course. In Britnat Toryland in Scotland Brexit does not exist. No mention that she is retiring as an MSP or that she has accepted a lobby job.

      What is important to the big mooth is the UK.

      ” Send the SNP a clear message – no second independence referendum.”

      ” Because the threat of another referendum on independence is a very real one.”
      ( It appears that big mooth Ruth believes a great deal more than a lot of posters on Wings that Indyref2 is coming to a polling station near you very soon.)

      The last sentence in this paragraph in the letter has to be a masterclass in self delusion: “Today, I remain as committed as ever to maintaining the unity of our United Kingdom. I’m proud of what we have achieved together as a country. Three centuries of cooperation, mutual support and a positive role in the world, promoting peace and security.” The Britnats interpretation of the British Empire that rampaged across the globe murdering, looting and enslaving populations.

      She says: “We said no and we meant it.” That was 2014

      I say – we said remain and we meant it. That was 2016 and 2019.

      Basically her letter is the same as before – don’t vote for any other party other than the Tories if you want to stop independence. However, some diddies on Wings who claim to want Scottish independence say the same as big mooth Ruth don’t vote SNP. These people are either like big mooth a Britnat or just plain idiots.

    292. mike cassidy says:

      Nicola Sturgeon to Andrew Marr

      “What we have to do is have a process that firstly allows us to demonstrate there is majority support in Scotland for independence and secondly we have to have a process that is legal and accepted, otherwise our independence will not be recognised.”

      http://archive.is/dya4C

      So unless there’s a Guenther Schabowski involved at the Westminster end

      http://archive.is/XajXS

      Its hard to see it being anything other than roll the GE dice until we hold the balance of power.

      She was quite ‘in your face’ on that point.

      ” .. I would say this to Jeremy Corbyn, or any Westminster leader who is looking to the SNP for support, if you don’t accept Scotland’s right to choose at our choosing – don’t even bother picking up the phone to me.”

    293. Defo says:

      “Sent in by a viewer, from the small ads at The National “
      ‘Fanatical attention seeking SNP shill?
      Bored of an evening nowadays?
      Try trollingwings.com, it’ll get you off ‘

    294. CmonIndy says:

      I see some folks are not going to vote SNP because ‘I’m not in on their strategy, pig shit fuck’. “But I still want Independence”.
      Has this site really been hacked by the Daily Mail?

    295. dadsarmy says:

      @Al-Stuart
      It’s clear to me that your priority is to get the Tories out of UK Government, NOT Independence. You’d be shouting “Tory Tory Tory – Out Out Out”,not “What do you want – Independence – when do you want it – Now”. And there are two things there:

      1). Why should Scotland throw away our chance of Independence to try to stop the UK remaining Tory with a Tory Government?

      2). It won’t work anyway, even with 59 SNP MPs, England can elect an overall Westminster majority of 326 or more Tory MPs – and probably will.

      Independent Scotland can get rid of ATOS, and will do anyway – if we get keep our Parliament.

      https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/3810-atos-and-capita-to-be-sacked-in-scotland

      Scotland with a population of 5.4 million can NOT be expected to continue to prop up a UK with a population of 65 million – either financially or morally or sociologically.

      Your postings are not about Scotland, they are about the UK.

    296. ScotsRenewables says:

      CmonIndy says:
      28 October, 2019 at 11:14 pm
      Has this site really been hacked by the Daily Mail?

      One wonders . . .

    297. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Al-Stuart @ 22:53,

      I’ve been around this site for some time now, and I’ve not been slow to criticise some of the ca-canny attitudes on display at times, and taken quite a lot of flak for it too, but then you wouldn’t have a clue about that, since you’re just a recent pop-up out of nowhere. With attitude. Because you know best. Your speciality seems to be to tell everyone your’e so gung-ho for indy that you’re so sure we mustn’t vote SNP. (Presumably the Al-Stuartites get your vote instead.) Aye right.

      I like to give newcomers a chance, to see where they are coming from, so after quietly observing a few of your posts I was now just trying to discover where this inherently corrosive attitude of yours was coming from, and see if you had any care about what (negative) effect you were actually having. Now I think it’s clear enough that you don’t, so thanks for that.

      Other people can judge for themselves, but I’ve seen enough now. Arrogant my-road-or-high-road blowhard or another fresh out of the school of Lord Hee Haw, I don’t care. Same bad. As far as I’m concerned – and I’m clearly not the only one – you can take your shouty know-it-all shit-stirring and shove it where the sun don’t shine.

    298. Iain mhor says:

      I think we all know, or should, thay there are no actual mutually acceptable democratic processes, whereby Scotland could achieve Independence.
      It is a galumphing elephant in the room,, but true.
      This is because, there is indeed only one democratic process within the UK Parliament, which is via ‘representative democracy’ under ‘Parliamentary Sovereignty. However Scotland (or at least the SNP) do not judge that process to be democratic. Far be it for me to make any unsubstantiated sweeping statement; but anything less than a majority of the enfranchised electorate in Scotland supporting Independence, would be lets say, unpopular.

      There is no process within the UK Parliament which recognises the majority of the enfranchised Scottish electorate on those terms.

      With regards the infamous S30 (legislation agreed to hold a referendum, as opposed to an agreement to abide by its result) this proposed legislation either has intrinsic merit, or it is conditional. We know it has no intrinsic merit as it has been rebuked. It can only therefore, be conditional. The condition can only be via an acceptable quorum, or enforced legally. It has not been enforced, therefore we can only conclude it is either unenforceable, or perceived to be.

      This leaves conditional via a quorum – that is to say, by numbers.
      The question is, what is the quorum whereby an S30 must be triggered within UK Parliamentary democracy? Should the SNP (or other political vehicle) hold all votes and all seats in all elections – is that the quorum, what are the acceptable numbers – this particular example or something lesser, if so why, and what is the reasoning?

      There is no legislative guidance concerning such numbers currently extant within the UK democratic process. Because of this, an S30, if conditional, cannot be defined as conditional by any metric or mandates, any ‘numbers’ – which means it can possibly only be conditional by another means.

      The only other means (and practically defined by ‘conditional’) is via political trade. Indeed this has been strongly argued for. However, such ‘trade’ is not democratic. Therefore, in the absence of defined conditions for a quorum and considering ‘political trading’ as democratically invalid – an S30 is bereft of any defined democratic process.

      The impasse is clear. The UK Parliament has a recognised representative democratic process, within which Scottish Independence may be sought – majority at Westminster. That process is anathema (or at least suggested to be) to the Scottish electorate. Scotlands process is likewise unrecognised by Westminster. Yet only one process is considered legitimately democratic within the UK and it is the process which is not.

      It appears to me, this must be shown to be the case and must be shown to the Scottish electorate to be the case. For all the despair and wailing and gnashing of teeth; where the SNP continue to exhaust Westminster’s democracy, they can only ultimately show that there must be a choice made. Accept Westminsters representative democracy and accept Independence if achieved via it, or reject it entire for Scotland’s democracy of choice.

      That is a somewhat classic example of a distillation of choices to a duality (if not indeed a false dichotomy) But it is no less a valid political act for that. Of course this is all extraordinarily fanciful and may bear no relation to current political reality, but is worth considering.
      It still does not answer the question of exactly how Scotland has a democratic process towards independence, constrained within the UK’s representive democracy (MP’s) but does steer the Scottish electorate into making a choice of preferred democracy.

      If and when that choice of preference is made and given the means to express it, perhaps we’ll find out what a dangerous quorum is and the political price it will extract. No-one knows how that will ultimately manifest – Until then, wake me for the revolution.

    299. Liz g says:

      Dadsarmy @ 11.14
      Thank you,you saved me the bother of typing that
      Only the voters in England get to decide if the Tory’s get into power and how long for.
      It was true in 79, and it’s true today, it’s been true for 300 odd years…..
      We Yessers have no more fucks to give about anything other than Indy because without it those voter’s impose their nutty governments on us…

    300. North chiel says:

      So what’s new? The Tories are driving for a hard Brexit or “ No deal” . Thereafter , if Boris is still at “ the helm” , he will “ deal” with the “ precious union” issue by strangling Scotland economically until the SNP are forced out of Holyrood ( the state propagandists will relentless try to blame the SNP government for the economic crash due to Brexit in Scotland) . If this results in a “ unionist coalition” in Holyrood then the “ Union Jack” money from “ London” will then be pumped in to replace the EU funding sustaining our Agricultural, fishing , university/ research& development , btransport& infrastructure sectors etc. “ Normally” the Britnat establishment would “ retire” the Tory government , and line up a Labour government ( to negotiate compromises all round to maintain beneficial trade links with the EU via soft Brexit and of course thereafter to maintain and cultivate the “ precious precious union” . However, these are not normal times and it seems that Labour remain forever split on Brexit and the Britnat ( pro Israel establishment) appear reluctant to allow Corbyn the no. 10 keys ?
      Consequently, if there is to be an election on Dec 9th , it will be very interesting to see how the Britnat state propagandists “ frame” the circa 5 week election “ campaign “ . If they back Bojo then I will expect relentless Pro Brexit output. If Labour and others manage to move the argument onto 10 years of Tory incompetence & austerity, food banks, collapsing English NHS service, targeting of the sick& disabled, universal credit shambles , US “ lapdogs” in Downing st etc. then a “ double digit Tory lead could be “ in jeopardy “ and an anti Tory coalition government could be a possibility.

      As far as Scotland is concerned , a Tory majority government under Bojo with a circa 50 seat SNP win in Scotland must result in a “ do or die fight for Scotland’s very existance” . All options must be considered by our FM as it will be Independence for Scotland or “ death by a thousand cuts” for Holyrood.
      If the Tories are defeated then the SNP and others will be in “ a compromise position” and no doubt the establishment Britnat Labour and Britnat Liberal hierarchy will “ peddle the Federal / Devo supermax line again to the electorate with a Brexit/ “ precious union “ balancing act.
      Perhaps our best chance might be a “ showdown “ with a Tory government and a “ hard or no deal Brexit” or perhaps not? A “ soft SM/CU “ coalition Brexit would this be enough to “ hold the union” re Scotland & N.Ireland or make the economic / trade argument for Independence more favourable ?
      Questions, questions?

    301. Jim McIntosh says:

      @Al-Stuart
      “teaming up with JS to give Johnson 5 years”?

      As Ian Blackford said today to Labour about voting in a GE “we’ll sort out Scotland, you sort out England”. If he can’t thats obviously what England wants.

      What are we supposed to do, wait until Labour either dump Corbyn or he manages to convince a majority to vote for him?

      That could take 5 years anyway the way things are going.

    302. Liz g says:

      Iain mhor @ 12.39
      I think the answer lies in the claim that the UK is a Democracy.
      That’s a valuable perception for Westminster to hold.
      Take the Brexix vote…. It has stood,despite evidence and claims that it was flawed!
      It was a democratic event and the outcome can and is being implemented.
      Even internationally the result stands.
      Parliamentary Sovereignty and the Supreme Court cannot over turn it,even although strictly speaking it was advisory.
      I think this is what Nicola means when she says the thing’s that she does.
      It seems to me it’s an intangible thing but a thing nevertheless….. Otherwise there’s no credible Democracy and we would be held in the Union as we were pre Democracy and being seen to be one became desirable to Westminster.

    303. Cubby says:

      Thank goodness I decided to scroll on by Al – Stuart posts some time ago. All I see on screen whishing past is a lot of bold large characters. I sometimes feel sorry for those of you who make the effort to wade through them (never mind respond to them)- I doubt it will be a rewarding experience. I bet that there is a high percentage of SNP baaaaaad comments most of the time and 100% SNP baaad some of the time.

      Useful idiot or Britnat. – you can make your choice.

    304. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Oh, BTW, I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere on here, but my better-clued-up missis informed me that the superficially-trivial but actually crucial difference between the 9th and 12th Dec for election day is that on the earlier date, Unis are (just) still in session so students are still around and able to vote in person there. Later on they are home and dispersed all over the place.

      At relatively short notice (w. no postal vote) that can make a big diff in a number of places. These are the “small gains” that might make all the difference in a close-run thing.

    305. Breeks says:

      cadogan Enright says:
      28 October, 2019 at 10:16 pm
      anyone find the magic wand yet?

      Oh! too busy criticising the SNP?

      Given up exposing the MSM then?

      Such dedication to Scottish Independence. . . . not

      You missed out the SNP trademarked “Meh, who else ye gonnae vote for?”

      We know the tired old tropes better than you do.

    306. Heart of Galloway says:

      Ravelin @9.27pm and Cubby @10.57pm.

      Here in the south-west country we too have received the aforementioned circular from Ruth the Mooth.

      It is indeed a pile of keech – and has SiU funding written all over it.

      But one sentence among the dross caught my eye.

      And it reinforces what I have said before about the importance – or rather the lack of it – of securing a Section 30 agreement.

      In a bout of uncharacteristic truthfulness, wee Ruthie says: “In the Scottish Parliament, Nicola Sturgeon has introduced legislation for another referendum on independence, with the aim of holding that vote next year.

      “That’s how high the stakes are right now and it’s why I’m asking for your support.”

      The letter says absolutely NOTHING about a Section 30 agreement – let alone the need to acquire one in order to legitimise the referendum.

      In fact, it implies exactly the opposite. Far from portraying Holyrood as subservient to Westminster, the tank commander – probably inadvertently – represents the forthcoming Scotland (Referendums) Act as a real and present danger to the union.

      And she is right. She knows the queen will give her consent to the Bill.

      That once law it will bequeath power to the Scottish Government to hold IndyRef2 according to internationally recognised norms.

      And that crucially it will be something which in the words of Nicola Sturgeon will put the referendum “beyond legal dispute” at home and abroad.

      The MSM has deliberately sought to hide this inconvenient truth – and almost completely succeeded.

      Why? Because at all costs they wish the Scots to remain happy competing for the title of best moaners in the world.

      That we hang on to our proud miserablist tradition of handing out the begging bowl as pathetic supplicants.

      That we stay content with being able to act only at the whim of Boris Johnson and within the limits set by him and his ilk.

      Words such as “permission”, “ask” and “allow” are repeated ad nauseum to reinforce this mantra of inadequacy.

      It is therefore something of a puzzle why many contributors to this site appear to have been sucked down the “we need a Section 30 deal” toilet bowl.

      Or maybe it’s not.

      Others wail about constitutional magic wands as if that were the one true path to salvation.

      So I find it the sweetest of ironies that the reality of where power to hold IndyRef2 really lies – at Holyrood and the delegates of the sovereign people of Scotland therein – has been broadcast in a Tory party leaflet paid with unionist money.

      It is for this reason the Tories know they have to stop the SNP beforehand by the only fleabitten tactic they have left – their “say no to IndyRef2” mantra from 2017.

      They will fail – principally because the SNP has learned a bitter lesson from two years ago, when a disgracefully anaemic GE campaign saw half a million supporters drift away.

      This time the battle will be fought on our terms – with Scotland’s right to choose and independence in the vanguard.

      I’m taking my grandson to George Square on Saturday. It could be a day which will live long in his memory.

    307. Al-Stuart says:

      .
      Robert J. Sutherland,

      You write that you are an old hand here and I am an uppity newcomer. Bless you. You say the exact words that make me feel like I was back at an SNP Branch meeting where only the views of diehard old SNP members were welcome and the new uppity members should sit at the back, surrender their votes to the SNP and shut up.

      BUT YOU MADE A MISTAKE ROBERT…

      Maybe you should check your facts before screaming excrement. Here is a post from 4 years ago that I made. Fact…

      https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-media-they-dont-like-to-talk-about/#comment-2099031

      Robert J. Sutherland, you have your “facts” wrong and are an evidently ignorant person.

      As for your comment, you invited replies. I gave a reasoned argument. You completely ignored it and pile on more 5hite.

      Robert you completely ignore the deaths of two of my friends…

      http://www.calumslist.org

      Then you start policing comments on someone else’s website as if you own the place.

      I am really fortunate in that I don’t know you, I never need to know you. I don’t want to know you and I will never need to read another one of your feckless useless posts.

      Unfortunately, the website owner has to trawl through this impotent guff. Before you make yourself look more arrogant and ignorant, I would suggest you actuallly read what the real owner of this site wrote at the head of this thread. Then reflect on why you are now in the fud club. Go on, have a read. You might learn something. This actual owner guy seems to know his stuff…

      Rev Stuart Campbell writes…

      THREE DAYS IN POLITICS

      “It’s a long time, apparently. Because while a general election on 12 December would be a “barking mad” idea according to the SNP’s Westminster leader Ian Blackford on Thursday, having one on 9 December instead is genius.”

      INSERT PHOTO OF DODO BIRD AND A PHOTO OF SCREAMING SEAGULL

      “So in a month in which this site has been extensively screamed at by SNP diehards as the work of a “("Tractor" - Ed)” and an “MI5 plant” for suggesting that maybe the SNP could vote with the Tories (or perhaps just abstain) to let Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal go through in exchange for a second indyref, the official SNP plan is to now vote with the Tories to give them the election Boris Johnson has been trying to call for weeks – which all polls suggest he’d win, allowing him to enact any sort of Brexit he wants – but to cleverly NOT get a second indyref out of it.”

      Robert J Suhherland, you have completely missed the topic, you have ignored the major issue of Scotland being handed over to 5 years of Boris Johnson and the Tories.

      You contribute very little to the community and society within and out with the internet. No prize for you today.

    308. Liz g says:

      Al-Stuart @ 1.59
      We’ve all lost people,some much closer than friend’s..
      If you want complete strangers to pich a fit over it…
      Have ye thought of the X factor auditioning?

    309. dadsarmy says:

      @Al-Stuart
      Others have probably looked at the website you keep linking to, but for those that haven’t it’s a list of 66 deaths due to the likes of the DWP, ATOS and Capita.

      First thing is that this list is NOT Scotland, it is all over the UK, London, Birmingham, and from Scotland. But the second thing is they date back to 2010 and after, I haven’t checked to see how many in Scotland, nor how recent. Third thing of course is that the DWP is the UK Government, not the Scottish Government. It’s one of the reasons we want to be Independent, but as far as doing anything in Westminster is concerned against a Conservative / DUP Colaition, there really is no chance.

      There is a further clue when that site talks about the bedroom tax – that has been MITIGATED in Scotland for some years.

      You seem to be unaware that benefits are being devolved to Scotland, with the problem being getting the handover from the DWP and setting up IT systems. But there are already some new benefits under devolution, and here’s a ScotGov link about it – there are others I’m sure you can find yourself if you’re genuinely interested.

      https://www.gov.scot/publications/devolution-of-benefits-ministerial-statement/

      Basically speaking you shouting and bawling on this website about the Tory Government in the UK, and shouting and bawling at anyone who disagrees with you, or even shouting and bawling at the SNP, is fuck all to do with Independence.

    310. dadsarmy says:

      @Al-Stuart
      You may also be unaware that in theory at least, involuntary homelessness is against the law in Scotland, probably uniquely in the UK, since 2003 – the Homelessness etc. (Scotland) Act 2003.

      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2003/10/contents

      see also:

      https://www.gov.scot/policies/homelessness/

      Personally I’m not convinced that “anyone finding themselves homeless through no fault of their own” is always looked after by all councils, seems to me at times they say it is voluntary therefore not their fault or repsonsibility.

      Seeme so me that if you are genuinely worried about this you should chase councils and even the Scottish Government to ask them if they actually falsely register people as voluntary and therefore don’t take responsibility for them.

      Now please, stop shouting and bawling.

    311. Roger says:

      Please tell me I’m wrong…but I suddenly had the feeling that all independence is coming to mean is being able to (re)join the EU and become a state in the federal EU they’re creating…the one that’s blind to what’s going on in Spain. The one that’s soon going to abolish national vetoes. So it’s out of one empire and in to another. Joining the EEA/EFTA instead of the EU would be different – there’d still be the Single Market, etc, but not so much Brussels domination – but I’ve a strong suspicion that’s not what’s on the agenda.
      Hi ho….

    312. ahundredthidiot says:

      Had a few bad dreams before I woke up this morning…..

      ……or did I?

      (wake up, I mean!)

    313. Breeks says:

      Heart of Galloway says:
      29 October, 2019 at 1:58 am

      “…..That once law it will bequeath power to the Scottish Government to hold IndyRef2 according to internationally recognised norms.

      And that crucially it will be something which in the words of Nicola Sturgeon will put the referendum “beyond legal dispute” at home and abroad….”

      You can dress it up behind whatever bullshit you like, call it a magic if it gives you a giggle, but if you actually thought about it more before writing, the penny might actually drop about the significance International Recognition of Scotland’s lawful Constitutional Sovereignty… the very thing you decry like the idiot you are.

    314. starlaw says:

      Roger . . Your wrong . . Bye.

    315. Gary45% says:

      Phronesis@10.11pm
      Good post.
      Regarding the health care system in the “States”, I suppose its just another way of “population control” if the weak and poor can’t afford it, the “masters” couldn’t give a fig about them.
      If a world war cannot gather pace in the eyes of the masters, then health care is the only thing that gives them power to control the masses.

    316. Heart of Galloway says:

      Breeks @7.03am

      Once again the paucity of your argument impels you towards insult.

      Last time iI was a cabbage, now I am an idiot. At least I have been promoted from a vegetable to an animate object.

      Your unimpeachable purity reminds me a great deal of the Kirk ministers at the battle of Dunbar, whose pig-headed zealotry was a gift to the enemy.

      So I ask again Breeks, by which means will this “Scottish constitutional backstop” be 1) secured and 2) honoured by perfidious Albion?

      The longer you are silent on this the greater must be the suspicion that there is nothing in the locker, at least nothing that stands scrutiny under the harsh spotlight of political reality.

    317. Sinky says:

      BBC Scotland now having two English Unionist supporting journos discussing parralels with 1979 general election attacking SNP without any comeback

    318. David P says:

      Dear hackalumpoff. Thanks again for your links. They are exceptional, and I appreciate everyone’s hard work putting them together…
      D

    319. Cubby says:

      Heart of Galloway@1.58am

      Excellent post. It would appear that big mooth Ruth has more confidence that Indyref2 is on the way than the Wings site owner and many BTL contributors. The only way to stop it is to stop SNP MPs being elected she says. As you say there is no sect 30 now is not the time crap.

      I too will be there on Saturday. Nice and early to get a good spot in what will undoubtedly be a very busy George square.

      No doubt the moaners will find something to moan about on Sat evening. Most of these moaners will probably not even be there just as they moaned about Sturgeon not being at Edinburgh they were not there either.

    320. Paul says:

      You are doing the Yoons work for them I’m out of here Goodbye!

    321. jfngw says:

      It is clear that the 2017 election had little to do with Theresa May increasing her majority, she had plenty of support to get a deal through with DUP and Labour collaborators. The only logical reason was it was to reduce the SNP contingent at Westminster, it’s hard to argue there is no support if you have over 90% of the MP’s. It didn’t matter by how many this reduction was as they could go with the narrative that the SNP lost and the MSM (esp the BBC) would push this relentlessly.

      Of course the Scots fell for this ploy and duly reduced the independence contingent at Westminster, we are outmanoeuvred again by WM. I’m pretty sure the Irish wouldn’t be caught out by this trickery. Too many Scots with the ‘not my fault I didn’t vote for it’ mentality, the great get out clause for doing nothing.

      If we return as many independence MP’s as possible at any election soon, the balance of power swings back to Scotland regarding WM attitude, they can refuse but we have the impetus (I was going to use momentum but that has too much Labour baggage). It’s up to Scots to show they have the determination of the Irish and the passion of the Catalonians.

    322. Bob Mack says:

      @Paul,

      I never even knew you had arrived to be honest.

    323. Stewart says:

      Aye, it’s difficult.
      But we are only here, talking in these terms, because the SNP realised back in the 90s and 00s that it would have to become the government of Scotland and, somehow, not lose support for itself and independence while there. This is where we are now and we always had to be where we are today if we were going to win independence.
      It’s clear from the comments from your SNP-sceptic supporters here, Stu, that those who oppose the SNP route are themselves divided on how to proceed. Should we be seen to make a deal with the Tories? Should we seek a section 30? Should we “just call it now, Nicola!”? Or should we just slag off the SNP without spelling out an articulate alternative?
      For me, the biggest problem is that we don’t yet have sufficient solid support across Scotland to sustain a deliverable package.
      We lost the 2014 referendum and the fact that, 5 years later, there is no agreed coherent path to independence from either those within or those outwith the SNP, should be a lesson to us.
      We are where we are but there is no agreement on how we progress.
      Even you, Stu, find it easier to criticise others than to set-out a positive plan for the future. You have made a huge contribution to the movement through this site but you are strongest and most influential when you are making the positive case for independence and dismantling the case against and these are what we most need now. Where is Kevin Hague today?
      Brexit is a gift to us, but it is still going to be working for us in 2, 5 and 10 years time. The single most important thing ALL supporters of Scottish independence can do today is to make that case to “the next ten percent.” When 55% and more Scots are hardened independence supporters and are never moving back, the “next step strategies” that we are finding so elusive now, will become clearer and more deliverable.
      So let’s get back to making the arguments.

    324. Bob Mack says:

      So many people blaming Stu for pointing out that the SNP have promised so much,but so far are not delivering.Is that really Stus fault ,or is it anger that he appears by crigicciing them, somehow giving them bad publicity?

      Stu has promised nothing but to help the Indy cause.

      The SNP promise a referendum,to allow the Scottish people a choice of Independence and that Scotland wont be dragged out of Europe against its will. Those are SNP promises not Stu,s

      Yet I see anger directed at Stu for asking why they have not fulfilled those aims as yet.

      Transference is a powerful enemy and I see much annoyance directed at Stu rather than the people who actual!y made those commitments.

    325. Ian Brotherhood says:

      @Bob Mack –

      Looks like Paul just popped in to say cheerio.

      😉

    326. robbo says:

      I don’t fecking care if there’s a GE every fecking month. I’ll vote SNP till every Yoon MP is out on there arse in Scotland.

    327. Iain mhor says:

      @LizG 12:58am

      Yes, in that it becomes a choice of the definition of democracy. There is no platonic pure form of democracy, so we must have whatever is defined as such and imposed.
      I have mentioned before that democracy in the UK is a new and evolving entity, it did not spring ‘fully formed’. In its current form it is barely 50 years old – 18 yr olds did not have a vote until 1969(?) and under the principle of ‘no taxation without representation’ lags behind Scotland as 16 yr olds are not yet enfranchised.

      The grinding wheel turns on the mechanism whereby a choice of democracy can be implemented. It can be implemented by altering existing democracy, rejecting it and/or imposing a new democracy.
      Working within the existing democratic structure (UK) it is difficult, but not impossible to alter it. It is gradualistic and emancipation of various groups and even devolution settlements are testament to that. Though one tenet must remain sacrosanct – parliamentary sovereignty.

      This is where I would take small issue, when you suggest even that cannot overturn the Brexit referendum result. It most certainly can and may yet. It is also where the suggestion (I misplaced who proposed it) that eg an S30 or its equivalent should be secured as permanent legislation.
      Of the many ways to alter the democratic process of the UK, unfortunately that one cannot fly. It requires an override of UK Parliamentary Sovereignty (“PS”)

      Changes which possibly could be made, while retaining “PS” is to define, in legislation, the precise quorum (mandate) required for a temporary S30 (or equivalent) to be triggered and a referendum ‘legally’ held by any of the devolved parliaments. It would still retain “PS”, but the situation would be Parliament requiring to overturn existing legislation, as opposed to the current whimsy – rather more difficult proposition for any UK government (though obviously not impossible)
      Proposing that is one thing, implementing it another. However as it would be applicable across all devolution settlements, it’s possible other devolved parliaments may prove enough leverage for such legislation to pass.

      It is very well that Scotland claims a triple mandate, unfortunately it is Scotlands claim, there is no legislation specifying that any of them automatically triggers the process of enacting a temporary S30. The mandates though, do have a degree of validity (or one anyway – majority MP’s) within the UK Parliament.

      The only operable democracy is within the UK Parliament and the legislation and procedures already exist for Scotland, with a majority MP’s in Westminster, to move for Independence. A declaration of intent to do so (with a confirmatory referendum to ratify if so chosen) should be enough to trigger an S30 and consequent agreement. “Should be” not “will”, however even Thatcher conceded the point, that it is within UK Parliamentary democracy for Scotland to do so.

      At present temporary legislation is continually requested, but the nuclear option has not been used. Nor it appears, has it been threatened, though we cannot be certain it has not. The UK government et-al are very much aware, that Scotland is in a position where it is quite capable of democratically moving for independence within UK Pariamentary, representative democracy.

      The only other option to Scotland, is to impose its own democracy. That is to unilaterally move for independence and hold its own plebiscite. It may be that requires a distinct mandate from the Scottish electorate and could be moved at the 2021 Scottish Elections or beyond.
      But of course, it appears the SNP at least, wish to secure Independence within UK Parliamentary democracy. Unfortunately they cannot both do that and hold a mutually exclusive, democratic Scottish ideal – that of some Scottish electoral sovereign mandate.
      The S30 must either be ‘gifted’, traded for or triggered, by moving for independence at Westminster with a majority of Mp’s. None of these meet the “Scottish ideal” of democracy, though any may bring it about. This is the irony.

    328. Robert J. Sutherland says:

      Al-Stuart @ 13:59,

      Thanks for proving once again to the whole wide world what an arrogant shouty little shit you are. However ineffective I may truly be, at least I don’t go around in a personal huff trying hard to disengage people from supporting independence while pretending to be the big hero.

      (And look, I managed to say all that without any large-scale waste of black pixels.)



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