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Wings Over Scotland

The cut-off

Posted on August 03, 2019 by

The Times leads its Scottish edition today with a piece on Ruth Davidson’s collapsing popularity with Tory members, which it helpfully illustrates with a graph.

Alert readers will notice, however, that for some inexplicable reason the graph ends more than a year ago, in July 2018, with Davidson’s rating still at a very healthy 54% – some three and a half times what it is now. So we’ve fixed it for them.

You’re welcome, lads. Go Team Ruth!

Because in politics, folks, timing is everything.

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  1. 03 08 19 12:56

    The cut-off | speymouth

159 to “The cut-off”

  1. Alexander Wallace says:

    The Scotish MSM remind me of Don King after Ali defeated George Forman at the rumble in the jungle.Don King trampled all over his man (George Forman) to get to Ali’s corner to be with the winner. The same is happening now with the Scottish MSM trampling all over Ruth the get to Jo Swinson.

  2. Truth says:

    And that’s what we pay you for. Good catch on the graph.

  3. Sharny Dubs says:

    There you are Stu once again dong the leg work for those poor hard pressed (cough cough) “journalists”

    Your such a good egg!!

    Ruth who?

  4. defo says:

    FTP types will still follow follow .
    That seems to be a UK wide poll, any ‘regional’ sub-sets Stu?

  5. Doug says:

    The Beechgrove garden beckons.

  6. manandboy says:

    Well done, Stu.

    There is no end to BritNat Tory Media lying and scheming. But then it goes with the English Colonial mentality.

  7. kapelmeister says:

    Looks like The Times doesn’t fully keep up with the times.

  8. kapelmeister says:

    The unionists don’t need Ruth anymore anyway. Not now they’ve got the charismatic, shrewd, witty, clued up and quintessentially Scottish Alister Jack to champion their cause.

  9. galamcennalath says:

    Changed days since the media would have you believe Davidson was First Minister-in-waiting!

    Did something specific happen over early 2018, then again in the last few months? Or, is it simply that such a superficial construct has a vey short natural shelf life?

  10. Peter A Bell says:

    Does media coverage track Davidson’s popularity? Or does her popularity track media attention? And is there any reason we should care?

  11. Den Cairns says:

    Agreed, timing IS everything. Patience troops…

  12. manandboy says:

    The Tories apparently, think of Scotland’s Independence as an ‘obsession of the Scottish National Party, even though independence is totally normal for a country.
    Furthermore, is not Brexit all about restoring England’s independence. Isn’t that what ‘Taking back Control’ is all about.

    If it’s good enough for England and the rest of the world, then, of course, it’s good enough for Scotland.

    Legally, Scotland is not a Colony. But England has persuaded itself that it is. Much like a thief quickly comes round to thinking that the stuff he has stolen belongs to him. Like all the British Colonies which made up the Empire.

    But it’s all coming to an end.

  13. manandboy says:

    Ruth Davidson’s carefully crafted Media image, reminds me of the Daleks in Dr Who. Inside the shell was a nasty, horrible little creature with a very bad attitude, consistent with an angry bully, and which was totally dependent on the machine around it. As is Ruth Davidson dependent on the media machine, especially the BBC and Donalda McKinnon.

  14. ScottieDog says:

    Quite tragic in a sense, like Frankenstein’s monster.
    They created her and they’re going to end her career.

  15. Ottomanboi says:

    Paradoxically it might be that Unionist Ruth is just that bit too strong Scotch for BJ.
    Glenalmond produces the watered down, denatured kinda Scotchman many dahn sahth are more comfortable with.

  16. manandboy says:

    I haven’t watched TV for years now, choosing to get all my info and entertainment via the internet. I confess to using the BBC online news on occasion, but I have recently concluded that reading BBC output is a complete waste of time.

    I’d sooner buy rotting fish.

  17. Hamish100 says:

    When the Times starts talking down Davidson it can only mean there are moves to take over the MSP as tory branch leader

  18. Robert Peffers says:

    @Doug says: 3 August, 2019 at 12:06 pm:

    ” … The Beechgrove garden beckons.”

    Aw! Cummon, Doug, be fair, she’s not compost quite yet.

  19. John Alexander Ferguson says:

    There is half a dozen wee Ermine breathing a huge sigh of relief.

  20. Robert Peffers says:

    @kapellmeister says: 3 August, 2019 at 12:15 pm:

    ” … Looks like The Times doesn’t fully keep up with the times.”

    Indeed, kapelmeister, but, “The times they are a-changing”:-

  21. sassenach says:

    Does this we’ll maybe get ‘Car Crash’ as the new Tory leader, if Rooth is going, going, go…….?

  22. sassenach says:

    Where did that ‘mean’ disappear to??

  23. Arthur Thomson says:

    And then there was Swinson.

    Even the dimmest in Scotland are going to cotton on some time.

  24. Jack Murphy says:

    For NEW READERS of Wings here’s a classic film from 4 years ago:
    A Must for all committed to Scottish independence.

    ‘Jim Murphy Saviour of the Union’

    Davidson next?

    14 minutes of sheer genius.

  25. galamcennalath says:

    Why would the WM worshipping Tories have a member of Holyrood as leader? Answer, they did when it suited them.

    Soon, Holyrood and everything about it will be sidelined to be replaced with power from their ‘real’ Parliament in London.

    The Scotland Office ( or whatever it’s called ) has been in planning for years. The Tories only saw Holyrood as a temporary blip. Davidson’s demise may have been inevitable while she remained an MSP. Now they have become more radical under Johnson, the power shift will be accelerated.

    It would be in keeping with Johnson’s approach to have an MP rather than an MSP as northern branch leader

  26. Dan says:

    @Robert Peffers at 1:03 pm

    Hey, compost is useful!
    To keep with the horticultural theme: She, and her party’s past and continuing antics have an effect on Scotland that’s more akin to blight on tatties…

  27. Arbroath1320 says:

    I may be wrong here but I suspect the Colonel is being teed up to become the new Political pundit from Scotland for the BBC. 😀

  28. Black Joan says:

    Maybe tRuthless should reflect on that “witty” cringe comment she offered up in 2016: “I’m delighted we have such spectacular surroundings . . . Usually they put the Scots in a place where nothing can be broken. Or stolen for that matter!”

    Her ingratiating cringe has come back to haunt her now that the new multi-billionaire Tory regime has no room for what it sees as non-public-school Scots oiks like Davidson and her pal Mundell.

  29. Artyhetty says:


    In fact the media all but had her down as winning the election in Scotland in 2017, and therefore she was actually First Minister, in their deluded tiny minds. Ah well, they did try, but then they failed.

    Had pals in England, Labour voted who ‘quite liked her’ and thought she was ‘funny’. Says it all really.

  30. jfngw says:

    It only seems like a few months since Ruth Davidson was being promoted as the potential next Tory leader in Westminster, now they are questioning if she should be Holyrood leader. How quickly that crown slips. Will she go with more dignity than David Mundell, unceremoniously dumped after prostrating himself at Boris Johnson’s feet.

  31. CageyBee says:

    @ Jack Murphy
    Despite bring on this site on a almost daily basis I had not seen that video so thanks for the share. Usual succinct and cutting cartoon from the holiday kid

  32. SilverDarling says:

    There is also a distinct lack of voices supporting her. Even sycophantic Daisley is a bit quiet. It is as if she has already gone. How strange. I wonder who they have lined up as her replacement? Has to be a Brexiteer, any recent converts in the Scottish Parliament?

    The Tories showing how ‘Ruthless’ they can be…

  33. SilverDarling says:


    Are the National and the SNP trying to pre empt the new WBB? I see a few SNP politicians re tweeting the supplement debunking Yoon myths.

  34. Calum McKay says:

    What control does Ms Davidson have over Mr Jack and Mr Thomson?

    None whatsoever, Ms Davidson is a leader in name onlly!

    More concerning is Mr Jack’s plan to cover Scotland in union jacks post brexit, straight out of the 101 rule book on how to govern colonies in the nineteenth century!

    What a clown and I haven”t even seen him interviewed on the TV yet!

  35. Scott says:

    We know how the MSN treated her but not anymore no one to protect her now.

  36. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Could it be Ross T MP as Colonel Yadaftie’s replacement?

    Thought it strange he missed out on a job after being BoJos Campaign Managin Scotland duriythe leadership contest.

  37. Effijy says:

    I received a letter from the House of Commons today.
    It was from the young Labour MP who marginally stole the
    Hard working Margaret Ferrier’s seat at the last election.

    I had never heard of the boy before or after the election until now.

    He proposes that I could make an appointment to see him if he
    Can help me with benefits, pensions or National Insurance matters.

    Again like Ruth he obviously sees our community as scroungers
    Only looking for benefits.

    I’m thinking about making an appointment to see if he can offer any
    Advice on how soon Scotland could become independent.

    I’d let be to see him squirm on why Labour hid the McCrone Report,
    The details of the Dunblane massacre, the stolen 6,000 miles of
    Scottish waters, the PFI Con and why their councillors.spent
    Thousands to stop female workers receiving equal pay.

  38. silverbuick says:

    Looks like a severe case of ‘ruth’ rot to me. Couldn’t happen to a better person, or could it?

  39. galamcennalath says:

    Could it be that Davidson fall came in two phases, as implied by the graph?

    First one last year. Reason? Pass.

    Second one in the last few months could this be part of the far right über Brexiteer takeover of the Tory party which has been going over the same period? Like Mundell, Davidson no longer fits.

  40. Effijy says:

    I can’t find the link to the see how Wings are doing
    In the poll to establish who has the worlds best political
    Web site.

    I know the answer but I just want to see confirmed 100% so
    That Westminster can see it through the tears in their fascist eyes.

  41. Liz g says:

    RE…. Ross Thompson et all
    It’s a pet theory of mine that they are being held in reserve to front ” Better Together 2 “.
    If true,I look forward to asking continuously how Scotland’s drug issues are better delt with in the Union?
    Especially since this is an issue they could speak to 🙂

  42. sassenach says:


    When I go to the voting site, you are unable to vote just now – a message tells you nobody is there ‘at the moment’??

    However Wings is well in front , having 80% of votes cast, and I think Craig Murray may be next with 6%.

  43. Effijy says:

    Thanks Sassenach,

    Sounds like the Tory Scottish office IT team are working
    Again this weekend.

    So many technical faults seem to happen to all things that
    Support Independence?

    If the Rev doesn’t win by a mile we know it’s been hacked.

  44. jfngw says:

    I see the LibDem’s are about again displaying their hubris, no deal with the SNP for pro-Remain seats (I don’t really want one). But remember this is a party that worked with the Tories and Labour to oust as many SNP MP’s in 2017 by not really contesting some seats. We have a Leave parliament because the LibDem’s helped 13 Tories get elected, just think about that next time they spout their ‘we are the biggest Remain party’.

    I see these three London based parties as representatives of another country at Holyrood, only supporting ideology if is the ideology of another country. The LibDem’s in Scotland, pro EU unless England decides to leave.

  45. Ken500 says:


    Can’t get a US trade deal if the Good Friday Agreement is not upheld.
    Can’t get a US trade deal if tax evading US multinationals have to pay tax.
    Can’t get a US trade deal. US protectionist.

    Mad cow came from Alabama. Cost £Billions.

  46. Jack Murphy says:

    CageyBee said 1:54 pm:

    ” @ Jack Murphy
    Despite bring on this site on a almost daily basis I had not seen that video so thanks for the share.
    Usual succinct and cutting cartoon from the holiday kid”

    Ah! CageyBee you’re a lurker. [smile]

    As a music lover,I particularly enjoyed the cleverly used clips of Tony’s Theme from Scarface and the Battle Symphony played by The Berlin Phil.

    All the best.

  47. stu mac says:

    Boris Johnson’s fake radicalism…

    … (what about him isn’t fake?)

  48. stu mac says:

    Peter Bell’s latest: Bust the Myths! Bust the Union!

  49. Hamish100 says:

    Arbroath1320 says:
    3 August, 2019 at 1:26 pm
    I may be wrong here but I suspect the Colonel is being teed up to become the new Political pundit from Scotland for the BBC. ?

    Could be right. After all, the bbc friends of Dugdale ie Smith got her a wee number wi Glasgow Uni/ Smiths Trust

  50. Dr Jim says:

    They can’t replace Davidson with Swinson, Swinson isn’t in the Orange Lodge and they’ll have to keep going to England to get their statements from her

    My bet’s on the new Scottish branch Tory leader Murdo Fraser and his backing band the Laffer Curve as the never won an election man ramps up his bid for leadership over the media created Davidson wummin that never was (Corbyn’ll put her up for a peerage so she can sit wae Annabel Goldie)

    When Holyrood resumes watch out for the new improved Willie Rennie demanding more attention because the Lib Tories are about to take over the world …….if only the damn SNP would just get out of the way and let them

    People keep voting for that damn SNP, so undemocratic of them, because there’s no appetite for them you know

  51. Scozzie says:

    Good riddance, hopefully we never need to see her face again in a generation…or is that a lifetime?

  52. Republicofscotland says:

    Dr Jim @4.24pm

    Aye Wee Willie Rennie, the world could be coming to a end and Willie’s last words would be, Will the First Minister rule out a divisive second independence referendum.

  53. CageyBee says:

    Jack Murphy says:
    3 August, 2019 at 4:07 pm
    CageyBee said 1:54 pm:

    ” @ Jack Murphy
    Despite bring on this site on a almost daily basis I had not seen that video so thanks for the share.
    Usual succinct and cutting cartoon from the holiday kid”

    Ah! CageyBee you’re a lurker. [smile]
    Well YES and no I post so intermittently that it comes across like that

  54. red sunset says:


    Can you get back to me on Jim195706 AT outlook DOT com ?

  55. They had Ming Campbell on lbc this morning spouting his spin this is the man who claimed for two regency bed cabitnents for his flat on his expenses and was part of power sharing with Cameron and the tories Clegg with his no student fees lies and a present leader who says even if a.second Ref., voted again to leave she would refuse to accept it she is refusing to accept democracy she has no place in politics aye liberal democrats if it was not so vile it would make laugh and let’s not forget the liar Carmichael what a shower you must be of low intelligence to vote for them or stark raving mad

  56. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    jfngw @ 15:55,

    I see that (our) James Kelly is proposing the SNP call the FibDem bluff over Remain – not a bad idea, actually – but from what you write it looks that those bumptious “only we support the EU” pretenders have gone into retreat already.

    Ruthie at least had some heft, and look how mightily she has fallen. Swinson hasn’t even risen. Just like BoJo, she has her eyes firmly set on her main chance in England, leaving Scottish matters in the hands of her bumbling factor Wee Willie, who is a joke. (Or maybe just a pretend joke.) Oh, that Jo Grimond’s fine legacy in Scotland has withered to this!

  57. Ahundredthidiot says:

    ‘we’ve fixed it for them’ ….had I a womb and a vagina I would want to have your kids…

  58. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    Ming Campbell also sold off the Post Office on the cheap.

    Something even Thatcher the architect of privatisation wouldn’t countenance.

    FibDem British Nationalist Liars

  59. Meindevon says:

    I’ve decided I’m going to do a poll in of my lovely English friends.

    Asking them 1) who is the SOS? 2) his deputy? 3) who is the leader of the Tories in Scotland and 3) how well is that leader doing?

    Actually think it will be a waste of time. They’ll have no clue and no interest.

  60. Robert Peffers says:

    @Republicofscotland says: 3 August, 2019 at 4:50 pm:

    ” … Aye Wee Willie Rennie, the world could be coming to a end and Willie’s last words would be, Will the First Minister rule out a divisive second independence referendum.”

    I wonder if Wee Wullie Rennie realises all referendums, elections of any procedure requiring a vote is designed to be, “divisive”, to ascertain which of two or more factions, circumstances or candidates has a majority vote from opposing factions. This is the sole function of all forms of voting.

    Perhaps when the next election for anything from a seat on a local council to who will be the next leader of the LibDems in Scotland, or even if Scotland should end the union, occurs Wullie will refuse to stand, or vote, as he is quite obviously very much against any form of divisiveness and any procedure that requires a vote is divisive.

    Indeed being of such mind can Wullie actually do his duty as an MSP without taking part in votes and thus being divisive?

  61. Sandy says:

    The colonel & fluffy.
    Reminds me of the lines of a Krisofferson song.

    “When you climb that stairway to the bottom, no-one’s watching except that mirror on the wall”.

  62. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Meindevon @ 18:34,

    Well, why would they? For most ordinary English people at home, Scotland is a kind of Brigadoon-entity that doesn’t quite exist. They know that any actual Scots they may meet are honorary-Engish in a peculiar kind of way, and that’s about as far as it goes. Benign indifference, mostly (unless whipped-up by rabid tabloids).

    It’s the English Establishment who mainly have a problem with us departing, I think. Their first and nearest colony and the last one to reject their overlordship, it would be the final humiliation for them.

    (Oh, and the resources of course. But my bet is that the stronger of the two is their powerful need for face-saving.)

  63. David says:

    Jo Swinson is the new goody 2 shoes messiah Ruth is past her sell by date . Annoyed Boris and her own members over Brexit .So is Nicola about to pass her sell by date if she continues to show no idea on how to get a 2nd Indy ref .Never mind the timing.

  64. Ottomanboi says:

    The Scottish Renaissance will only begin when the last vestige of ‘Britishness’ is flushed out of the system.
    British Unionism is ‘provincial’, cosy, anglo-centric, uninmaginative.
    Take a deep breath!

  65. Colin Alexander says:

    It would be good to see some Tories, Labour and LibDems coming out for Scottish sovereignty / independence and respect for Scotland’s vote to Remain in the EU.

    Even if their domestic politics differ from yours, any support for independence should be welcomed.

  66. starlaw says:

    David 6;56pm
    Hi David its August . . Hiking season, off you pop.

  67. sassenach says:

    David @ 6-56pm

    “Nicola past her sell-by date”??

    Oh my aching sides!! Did you not see her mastery of Boris and Union Jack at Bute House?

    Away and play with the traffic, wee man.

  68. Robert Peffers says:

    Perhaps Wingers would appreciate a little culture this fine Saturday evening?

    How about this:-

  69. Benhope says:

    Hamish 100 @12.59.
    Could not agree with you more. When The Times comes out to rubbish prospective FM Roothie it means the time is up.

    The men in grey suits have decided she is a busted flush and it is time to move on to try and find another stooge (yes but scot ).

    Good luck in that. The plebs are becoming worryingly aware of the true facts behind the MSM spin.

  70. Legerwood says:

    Jockanese Wind Talker says:
    3 August, 2019 at 6:32 pm
    Ming Campbell also sold off the Post Office on the cheap.””

    It was Vince Cable and it was Royal Mail that was sold off on the cheap.

  71. Clapper57 says:

    Well we are now in HYPERSPACE….that is we are all HYPER and seemingly lost in Brexit SPACE….RESISTANCE is apparently futile as the DARK FORCE of the Lib Dems advance their REBEL ALLIANCE.

    Jo VADER is now masterminding her evil ATTACK OF THE CLONES as she surreptitiously trys to imitate the EMPEROR Ruthless as she realises , that for the SNP , THE FORCE AWAKENS but the PHANTOM MENACE also knows as Edna and on a good day Willie plots with Jo VADER to overthrow the RESISTANCE of the FORCE.

    Meanwhile in a chocolate GALAXY FAR FAR AWAY…. called MARS BAR I think…..there is a ROGUE ONE carping from the sidelines ….who on planet Earth…. is known as Alex Double Barreled Hyphenated Surname but to his fellow Lib Dem SPACE CADETS he is commonly known as EWOK DOUBLE BARRELED HYPHENATED SURNAME..the RESISTANCE know him by the name STORMPOOPER…together, they, the EMPIRE , fight right dirty …….like the true IMPERIAL officers that they are……. to show the RESISTANCE that the EMPIRE STRIKES BACK…. eh by gum that they do.

    Jo VADER is a servant to the EMPIRE and her one weakness is tis hard to hear her words when she speaks …especially the over pronounced emphasis on her vowels as she speaks…..she got rid of the rasping sound though when she removed her VADER mask….now more whiny and less breathy….still annoying but understandable with sub titles.

    CHEWBACCA whose is known on Earth as Christine’ EX EMPIRE Tory On The Outside But Still EMPIRE Tory On The Inside’ Jardine is a WOOKIE that has tendency to turn COOKIE whenever anyone mentions THE FORCE….especially it AWAKENING….cause though she thinks that SOLO she can take on THE FORCE….. she is usually hampered by the STORMPOOPER and THE PHANTOM MENACE LIGHTweightSABERS always set on stun….that is they stun anyone who has the misfortune to be in their presence…….but CHEWBACCA thinks we are better together as a part of the EMPIRE….she’ll STRIKE BACK if ya say yir goin wae THE FORCE….usually she makes sounds like RRRWWWGG and RAWRGWAWGRR but the RESISTANCE is more than a match for her…… and the sounds she makes do not translate well with those of us in THE FORCE….all hot air or as we in the FORCE say all Kirstene Hare…another (hot) air head.

    As sure as there is always STARS in the sky there will also always be WARS…and Jo VADER is no stranger to STARS ( Shocking Tory Alliance Rightwing Stooge) or WARS ( We Are Really Swindlers) not just any Swindlers this is Swinson Swindlers…….guess we need to tell Jo Vader that the FORCE is strong and RESISTANCE is futile…..also her REBEL ALLIANCE will itself be destroyed by the EMPIRE because the EMPIRE ALWAYS STRIKES BACK…..

    ps….I heard Edna lost his heart to a STORMshipPOOPER….cause he too likes to carp…but he knows his plaice. The old Trout…..better watch out cause STORMPOOPER might be angling for his job….or am I just fishing for gossip…..

    Now to have my EMPIRE biscuit….takes some FORCE to break it….would be better to CHEW BACCY than eat this biccy…..munch munch or to enunciate Swinson style MOUNCH MOUNCH………Duuh Duuh da da da Duuh Duuh da da da Duuh Duuh Duuh da da….Your IMPERIAL MASTERS are forming an ALLIANCE…bow down to your IMPERIAL MASTERS ……..

    I am going mental mental chicken oriental..normal service will be resumed once we get our Independence….

  72. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    I stand corrected @Legerwood says at 8:08 pm

    That economy with the truth probably qualifies me as a FinDem Candidate


  73. Dr Jim says:

    The main ploy of the detractors and Unionists now seems to be to endow Scotland’s First Minister with powers she doesn’t have then criticise her for not using them, or the lot who pretend to be Yes supporters who demand the FM just be FM for them and them alone and demand that she *dae sumthin*

    It’s like they have a desire to portray themselves as even bigger tossers than they already are, but hey as long as the intellectually challenged fall for it, which they do

  74. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Nice to note that despite some nonsense posted on here the National has today confirmed the fact that it is the only newspaper in UK that is actually increasing its hard copy sales.

    It’s front pages have been brilliant. “Back Door Boris” was a cracker.

    Today’s copy debunking the myths is a very useful development.

  75. Ben Starav says:

    Ruth Davidson was cunning enough to turn the last two electoral contests into unofficial referendums on Scottish independence and it worked beautifully. The EU elections were to be third time lucky until a dastardly SNP took the field and threw another tin of yellow emulsion over the map.

    So the colonel’s endless boasts about ‘Team Ruth’, ‘Her MPs’ and ‘Her Brexit terms’ have been ruined by BoJo and the unintended consequences of the EU referendum. The humiliation of ‘operation arse’ scrambling into ‘operation kiss ass’ has been a joy to behold with further humiliations eagerly awaited. The party’s over for this cruel, shallow, little operator. Peak Ruth has arrived. Even a carpetbagging trip down south has been rolled up.

    It’s easy to forget that it isn’t the DUP which provides a Tory working majority rather the total, utter aberration of 13, 13! SCOTTISH CONSERVATIVE MPs. The next snap election can’t come quick enough because it means the ‘Scottish’ Conservative’s natural representation at Westminster restored to none or one.

  76. Thepnr says:

    @Ben Starav

    The next snap election can’t come quick enough for me either, I also believe the Tories will be reduced to at best a single representative in Westminster.

    In the past Fluffy held that role but now that he is no longer SSOS he too could be out leaving no Tories at all as Scottish MP’s.

    Just let BoJo or any other Tory after an early election try and refuse a Section 30 order to an SNP Scottish Government with 90%+ of Westminster MP’s when they themselves have NONE.

  77. Sinky says:

    @ dave mcewan hill

    Good music on bbc alba tonight. Eurovision choirs followed by Belladrum. Much better BBC than the London offerings but can’t get it on freeview for some reason

  78. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Thepnr –

    If Mundell isn’t well and truly hoofed come the next GE? I give up.

    That’s my fuckin ‘red line’ right there and I swear to all known gods that I will stick by it.

    Many of us well-remember the Greens role in helping him hang on last time. Whether it was intentional or not is immaterial – it must not happen again.

  79. Thepnr says:

    @Ian Brotherhood

    Totally agree wrt the Greens. They need to be honest and accept that in a FPTP system they have absolutely no chance of haveing an MP elected from Scotland to Westminster.

    They should do the right thing and not contest any Westminster seats. The Scottish Greens future lies in an Independent Scotland where they will be fully represented by a proportional system. To get there we need independence and that starts by getting rid of ALL the Unionist MP’s if we possibly can, by standing aside then they make that more likely.

    Who wouldn’t want rid of Mundell in Scotland other than a tiny number of misguided Tories in the Borders?

  80. Heart of Galloway says:

    O/T Up in the Galloway Hills today my partner and I bumped into a couple of lassies on horses making their way along on old drove road above Carsphairn.

    I got talking to one, Misha was her name, who hailed from a town in north Wales about 25 miles across the border from Chester.

    Purely by chance I had my Yes2 t-shirt on (de rigeur these days).

    “We have only been living here two weeks”, Misha told me, “But we love it here. We moved to Scotland because we knew we would feel at home here.

    “You know there’s another independence referendum coming?” I asked.

    “Of course I do. That’s one reason why we came. Your Remain vote was another.”

    “But how will you vote?”

    “Why, ‘yes’ of course! And I know a lot of people who have come up here to do the same.”

    I held her hand for a second and smiled and thought “feck me, we are going to win this.”

    Then I thought – we MUST make the referendum voting process ours from start to finish – preferably with EU scrutiny.

    The Electoral Commission – for many reasons, its failings over blatant Leave campaign cheating in the EU ref and its changing of the indy ref question not being the least of those, should be allowed nowhere near the referendum.

    Nor should Idox, the firm of which the loathesome former Tory minister Petert Lilley is senior non-executive director.

    The company was heavily involved in managing the postal vote process and in its own statement to shareholders, said it successfully provided “the majority of electoral services” for the 2014 Scottish referendum and that it managed the highest turnout in recent years for a major UK election. Ahem.

    Make of that what you will.

    I know for an absolute fact that there were ballot boxes in Dumfries and Galloway taken to the count without a police escort – unlike General Elections. This may be completely innocent, but eyebrows were raised at the time.

    Voter registration/eligibilty, postal/proxy vote applications, polling day arrangements, the conyeyance of ballot boxes to the count and the count itself MUST be iron-plated to ensure there is no jiggery-pokery.

    For there are no depths to which our imperial masters will not stoop to ‘bind Scotland fast’ and it would serve us well to remember that our unionist friends have a declared and dangerous intent to preserve the integrity of their ‘precious union’ at all costs.

    There is far more than Scottish independence riding on a yes vote.

    A Scotland reborn would be a major catch for the EU, a new social democratic state with an abundance of resources occuying a crucial strategic position in the North Atlantic. And it would have an ovowed aim of ditching nuclear weapons, NATO or no NATO.

    There are certain forces who would go a long way to try to stop that happening by multifarious means, including the subversion of democracy.

    We must be on our guard to ensure the wishes of our people prevail.

  81. Heart of Galloway says:

    *Make that ‘avowed’! Jeezo.

  82. Thepnr says:

    @Heart of Galloway

    The only time you can be certain that the individual ballot papers in a ballot box at a polling station are “legit” is when it is still in that polling station.

    From 07:00 until 22:00 the ballot boxes never move and members of the public are regularly coming in and out so everything is in the open.

    That’s why I believe that before they leave the polling station the boxes should be opened and the votes countes in front of representatives of the political parties and other registered groups.

    The votes should then be replaced in the boxes with the count summary, the box sealed and the count is then verified at the central polling station where the result is to be collated and announced. At least that makes sense to me.

  83. Sinky says:

    Heart of Galloway

    Electoral comission needs to prevent students and holiday home owners being allowed to register in two areas.

    Also inly those registered to pay Scottish Income Tax should be allowed to vote in Scotland.

  84. Clapper57 says:

    @ Ian Brotherhood @ 10.13pm

    Yep Ian….after all the Greens stood aside to help the Lib Dems win Brecon election….in REMAIN ALLIANCE….so let’s see if they are as committed to Remain and Indy come next election…

  85. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Heart of Galloway –

    Hear hear to all you wrote above.


  86. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Heart of Galloway at 10.40

    Great post. I am concerned that the SNP keeps saying “the postal vote is secure” when the European Commission (and several leading legal figures in England) has described it bluntly as “a recipe for large scale fraud”

    I was at the Glenrothes by election some years ago and was never so sure that we had won an election in my life – then nearly 9000 postal votes (against a usual less than 2000)saved it for Labour
    The returning officer admitted he had only checked one in six as there was so many though legally every postal vote has to be checked against its application (and he disqualified a substantial number of those he checked) and then THE VOTING RECORDS INCLUDING THE POSTAL ONES GOT LOST when the SNP asked to check them. I thought we might have learned – but no – every time somebody expresses concern about the postal voting (recipe for large scale fraud)system they are pilloried as “conspiracy nuts”.

    Anbody that believes that a regime that has armed gangsters to kill people on the streets of Northern Ireland,conspired violently to destablise other states all round the world and carelessly killed millions in the process and has inflitrated all our institutions including the SNP wouldn’t fiddle with the postal vote to prevent it losing Scotland and its huge resources is dangerously deluded and naive.

    A&B constituency recorded a 96.7% take up on the postal vote at the referendum. This figure is not in doubt. This is physically impossible as it was in four other constituencies (three of them usually SNP). There has never been any explanation for this.

  87. Clapper57 says:

    @ Heart of Galloway @ 10.40pm

    Cracking bloody post btw….everything you said was spot on.

  88. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    As an aside about the dangerous insecurity of our voting system I contested Hamilton West and Blantyre for the SNP at a regional election. The day after the result (Labour success)I had a phone call from a Parish Priest who asked me “Mr Hill, how did the Labour Party know I voted for you and the SNP yesterday?” “Because the Labour Party in reality was in charge of both sides of the process” I told him.

  89. jfngw says:

    For those who wondered what the actual LibDem position regarding Scotland/EU and them being a Remain party, here in black & white (with some coloured bit) is the definitive position.

    They are a Remain party but only in terms of the UK, with the EU it is really down to what England decides. If England votes Leave then Scotland will leave no matter how we vote.

    They will claim Scotland could swing the vote of course, just in the same way as we could hold the balance of power at Westminster, something so rare it is unlikely.

  90. Heart of Galloway says:


    Sounds iron-plated to me. Such an arrangement would act as a failsafe for the count and would exponentially increase openness and transparency.

    However, the eligibilty of folk to be on the register must come under similar scrutiny, as must the whole postal vote fandango.

    On the latter, it is my (bitter) experience that the Tories – and, by extension the no side – build up a huge lead in the postal ballot before the ‘real’ votes are cast on polling day.

    There have been occasions where that lead has been the deciding factor in who won and lost. Witness Mundell’s escape in 2015.

    There were 800,000 postal votes cast in indy ref. A typical 70-30 split in favour of ‘no’ would equate to a 320,000 PV majority (560,000 to 240,000) – pretty damn close to the overall no majority c 400,000.

    Some of the PV tallies were scarcely credible – 96 per cent in Argyll and Bute – and led to unsubstantiated claims that the ballot had been in some way tampered with.

    For the avoidance of doubt the archaic PV system needs to be overhauled.

    In recent years the

  91. Heart of Galloway says:


    Aye, 96.7 per cent in A&B was it? The deid voted from the grave right enough!

  92. CameronB Brodie says:

    “British Unionism is ‘provincial’, cosy, anglo-centric, uninmaginative. Take a deep breath!”

    Then let go, exhaling slowly through the mouth, expelling the air from the top of your lungs and ensuring to use your diaphragm to push the air up and out. Concentrate on controlling your breathing and emptying your mind of everyday concerns. Don’t force the concentration though, breathing is natural so your mind should be able relax along with your body. Continue for a few minutes until you feel calm, centered and ready to take on the world, or has passed-out and are now lying on the floor.

    Here’s some free advice for Dugdale, in her new post at that British Labour think-tank at Glasgow Uni. She should focus on encouraging Scots to engage with their embodied popular sovereignty. Well, her task is to foster popular political engagement, is it not?

    The Constitution of India: Popular Sovereignty and Democratic Transformations

    Developing the Relationship between Popular Sovereignty and Constitutionalism

    This chapter examines Gandhi’s and Nehru’s ideas about constitutionalism and its relation to popular sovereignty. The idea of popular sovereign power that was conceived in extremist thought became profoundly significant for subsequent political thinkers such as Gandhi and Nehru. However, the way in which the idea was developed as a foundational premise for future political ordering differed significantly in the thought of these two leaders. Gandhi’s ideas of social and political organization, based on direct exercise of political authority by the people and as a continuing act of popular self-governance, was one that later political thinkers such as Nehru had to confront.

    Its revolutionary and mass-based form of political activity led to an understanding of the special status of the Constituent Assembly as a body of the people in the process of constitution making. Nehru’s understanding of constitutionalism and its relation to popular sovereignty was powerfully influenced by his engagement in Gandhian politics. For Nehru, the process of constitutionalism had to be legitimated through popular political engagement.

    Gandhi, Nehru, Indian constitutionalism, popular sovereignty, Indian constitution, political engagement

  93. CameronB Brodie says:

    I forgot to suggest breathing in, preferably through the nose, after you have exhaled. Silly me. 🙂

  94. Thepnr says:

    Paul Hutcheon in the Herald has now picked up on this article and the fall from grace of Ruth Davidson in Tory members eyes.

    “Davidson, who is appalled by the prospect of no deal, is already feeling the pressure internally. A survey of Tory members by Conservative Home, an influential party blog, found that her approval rating was as high as 84% after the 2017 election. But opposing Johnson has carried a cost. Her rating last week slumped to 14%.”

  95. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Dave McEwan Hill @ 23:11,

    The postal vote procedures have been considerably tightened since back then. In Glasgow at least, every postal application is validated, even though there are a considerably greater number of them these days. The administratative procedure has also been tightened further since the Ruthie debacle. (I know, because I made the effort to check the process in person, as anyone can do if they care to, instead of pontificating from afar.)

    But. The postal voting system was indeed rightly criticised in the courts, and like you I have my reservations.

    The postal voting system checks against pre-registered signatures, and aims to exclude attempts at personation, ie. someone trying to vote as somebody else. That was a weakness in the past, and may well still be attempted. I’ve seen (because you can view it happening on a screen in real-time) the machines automatically reject obvious mismatches, some of which are clearly caused by the right person (often elderly, one suspects) using a slightly different form of signature (eg. adding a middle initial not previously registered, or vice-versa), and sometimes it’s something that looks entirely different. (hmmm) In theory at least, people whose vote is rejected for whatever reason get a second chance, but short time scales could actually disenfranchise genuine voters.

    Ultimately, the marginal decisions still devolve to an electoral official. And even if this process were 100% successful in what it does do, what it just cannot possibly do is:

    + check that the original registration was genuine in the first place (and not some entirely fictitious person, or some real person who did not actually qualify to vote)


    + ensure that the (correct) person signing-off the ballot is the same person who actually cast the accompanying vote. Not least because people who are incapacitated can get a “helper” who is supposed to be neutral, but could actually be someone with an agenda. And then there’s eg. the situation of large extended families with a tradition of male dominance and little privacy.

    Consequently, I believe that (apart from a minority of obvious exceptions), voting should be like justice: not only done, but seen to be done. By presenting themselves individually in person and voting by themselves. The Electoral Commission =ahem= takes the opposite view, believing postal voting increases electoral participation. But by whom exactly, one might well ask…?

  96. CameronB Brodie says:

    So there you go, Dugdale’s job actually requires her to support self-determination for Scotland, as hell will freeze over before English nationalism accepts Others as equals. The work on the new constitution for Britain suggests it is modeled on Spain or Israel, and offers little potential for constitutional justice for Scotland. So she either supports the development of Scotland’s social democracy, and pushes for indy, or she commits to her ideology and undermining Scotland’s best interests (see the full-English Brexit).

    Definition and development of human rights
    and popular sovereignty in Europe
    Science and technique of democracy, No. 49

    The human right to democracy – a moral defence
    with a legal nuance

    The principle of all sovereignty resides essentially in the nation. No body or individual may exercise any authority which does not proceed directly from the nation.62 (Article 3, Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen)

    (1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

    (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

    (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal
    and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.(Article 21, Universal Declaration of Human Rights)

    Every citizen shall have the right and the opportunity, without any of the distinctions mentioned in article 2 and without unreasonable restrictions:

    (a) To take part in the conduct of public affairs, directly or through freely chosen representatives;

    (b) To vote and to be elected at genuine periodic elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot, guaranteeing the free expression of the will of the electors;

    [c] To have access, on general terms of equality, to public service in his country. (Article 25, International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights)

  97. Dan says:

    The old electoral role that was ditched after 2014 indyref had 4.2 million folk on it.

    IIRC the following GE in 2015 with the new role had 3.6million. I’m not entirely sure if that 3.6million figure was made up of all folk registered on the role, or if it was only those eligible for the particular GE voter franchise, which would eliminate 16 & 17 year olds plus EU Nationals. NB, the above numbers are those on the roles and include those that didn’t vote.
    I spent quite a bit of time looking into this after 2014 but soon realised it is made extremely difficult for a member of the public to scrutinse the system. The local electoral roles are held in libraries, it is against the law to copy any details but limited notes can be taken, as soon as a new role is released you are not allowed access to the previous one, so that on top of the way the lists are compiled makes it pretty much impossible to check for fraudulent activity prior to reporting it.

    I continually hear of and have seen screw ups with the voting system.
    The Electoral Commission and political parties have access to the Electoral Role every time it is updated. One has to hope they are prudent enough to run comparisons each time there’s an update for analysis and to monitor for anything suspect.
    I am no IT genius but it must be simple enough for some techy types to run a program that can highlight the differences from each change to look at in detail. I imagine the vast majority of registered folk will be a constant, so focusing on the changes, and breaking them down to constituency level where activists can check changes with local knowledge should be relatively straightforward.
    It’s not rocket science and you can see that the Conservative party can consistently get their vote out, so clearly they have a system in place that attempts to maximise their votes. A sensible strategy might be to emulate such a system. Some constituencies are won by just tens of votes.
    What happens with military votes if for example a regiment is moved to a different location? Do these people and families suddenly appear on the local role?

    I’ve seen firsthand the vote registration system has numerous failings, including a long deceased person still getting a polling card sent to them even after the deceased’s estate had been legally wound up and the property sold.
    I took the polling card into the local electoral office myself and asked how this was possible as dead people tend to have trouble responding to letters that require them to confirm who lives at the address for voter registration purposes, plus it is supposedly an offense not to respond to the letter… All I got from them was “mumble mumble, we’ll see to getting our records updated, thank you, goodbye”.
    It’s hardly confidence inspiring.

  98. Confused says:

    I am really glad at the level of attention wingers are putting towards the voting processes.

    I thought in 2014 “something stinks” almost immediately – ruth davidsons smirk before the count began, then the day after, the way people in the streets stared at one another.

    – the voting patterns looked statistically anomalous to me, and coupled with the strange rules – no photos, no exit poll, postal votes mixed back in not counted separate – it looked suspiciously like the thing was setup to be rigged.

    – the easiest way to do this would be to flip postal votes, 200K to give the right margin.

    A couple of court cases in England had the judge remark on the vulnerability to fraud in the postal vote.

    In other countries, extremely high postal votes and razor thin margins are usually flagged up as suspicious.

    Wasn’t there a court case about fraud in Dundee? – but then the ballots were destroyed, accidentally.

    Twitter support for pro-independence was gauged 2:1 in our favour. I also heard, that restricted to native scots, we would have won anyway, albeit on a razor thin margin.

    The thing about hard brexit and boris – this is obviously unpopular – but if it puts indy support at 60, then that becomes the level at which postal vote flipping no longer works. In which case they will fight tooth and nail to avoid ever having another indyref – which is why the sovereignty/s30 yay or nay-issue, needs to be thrashed out in a proper court.

    Next time, its Jimmy Carter and the UN, transparent ballot boxes with holographic seals, local counts, and a postal vote only if you have had the last rites.

  99. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Hungary offering £30000 to couples, to encourage them to have three children; if the family bring a third child in within a certain time frame, the debt is cleared. (Google it)

    Kind of makes you think about who the leaders of our much wealthier country answer to. Sweet dreams.

  100. Terry callachan says:

    To confused your post at 1.57am

    Have a read f the rules for registering to vote.

    Some bits say you have to be “ RESIDENT” at an address to be able to vote

    Some bits say you have to be “REGISTERED” at an address to be able to vote

    The use of the words resident and registered apply to different types of vote ie local council elections , general elections , referendums

    Can anyone think why they would not just see the same word for all ?
    And why would they se these two different words

    Clearly there is a difference between being resident at an address and being registered at an address

    I’m suspicious

  101. Robert Louis says:

    Dave McEwan Hill, and Heart of Galloway, and others,

    Totally agree, regarding many points being raised.

    Postal voting process is so liable to abuse, it is verging on a corrupt process.

    The electoral commission has shown itself, repeatedly to be unable or unwilling to properly regulate and PUNISH those who seek to gerrymander elections, either through ‘dark money’ (as with the Tories in Scotland), or via double voting (folk from England with second holiday homes or flats up here), and so on. The electoral commission is the proverbial ‘chocolate teapot’ of democracy.

    The Scotgov MUST involve EU officials in overseeing the next referendum. If they do not, then they are guilty of incredible naivety.

    This is NOT conspiracy theory, it is just good common sense. With London we are NOT dealing with a fair or indeed democratic third party. As rightly pointed out, a system in London that hired thugs in N.Ireland to do their ‘dirty work’, and in many other nefarious exploits, such as the Chagos islands, where the wholly and completely just IGNORE the rule of law.

    Westminster will do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to keep its vice-like grip on its free oil supply which it steals from Scotland.

    Westminster and its ‘scottish’ apparatchiks (including the electoral commission) simply cannot and MUST not be trusted come indyref 2.

  102. Terry callachan says:

    The postal voting system is lax, as I mentioned previously the loose wording of being
    registered at an address or being resident at an address for voting are used in a fashion that to me doesn’t show good enough definition of purpose.

    Furthermore the rules on proxy voting are very loose too, you can vote on someone else’s behalf if they are a close relative plus up to another two people in addition to that who are not relatives and all that is needed is a form completed with a signature from those you will vote for, but if they can’t sign it can still be accepted !
    I wonder how many people who are unable to handle their own affairs because of loss of faculty loss of memory etc are having their vote made by someone who cannot possibly determine what the incapacitated person would vote for.

    It’s impossible to know how well the officers in charge of this whole process do their job.

  103. RM says:

    The 2014 vote was rigged, yes were leading panic set in then Gordon Brown came in to save the day, everything happened to quick and the result was to far apart, Gordon Brown wouldn’t change people’s minds maybe 2 in a 1000 maybe! Think the postal vote did the damage.

  104. sassenach says:

    I always find it hard to get my head round the fact that in a two-sided referendum vote, one side completely controls the voting organisation and count.

    Hardly inspires trust in the process, does it?

  105. Graeme says:

    I’ve no doubt the 2014 Referendum was rigged although I’ve no evidence to back it up, but I live in Dundee and in the lead up to the vote Yes was everywhere,car stickers, banners, flags etc everyone I spoke to was yes,

    I remember watching the results on the TV as they came in and although I knew we lost before the Dundee vote was announced I waited to see the Dundee vote believing it was gonna be a massive Yes and I couldn’t believe it was only around 52% as I remember, it just didn’t feel right.

    I spoke to a canvasser and he felt exactly the same, he and his fellow canvassers thought it was gonna be 68-70% in Dundee judging from what they was hearing on the doorsteps.

    Sometimes a gut feeling is all we have to go by and my gut feeling is telling me it was was rigged

  106. Willie says:

    Meanwhile the new Prime Minister visits a developing country disaster in the making at Whaley Bridge and declares that a failing dam …… “ is dodgy but stable “ and that the thousands of homeless residents ,,,” will be provided replacement homes “

    What a superficial response from the elitist moron now ensconced as the UK’s fascist PM.

    If this dam breaches a small town of 6,5000 will be swamped under a billion litres of water destroying the homes in what will be a third world disaster in a so called first world country..

    With already over 2,000 residents forced from their homes with fifteen minutes to get out, these folks are now in their third night of temporary shelter praying that the dam will not breach. But breach it might despite the makeshift attempts to place sandbags as emergency services attempt to reduce the dam’s water level.

    But how did it come to this. How did a major structure like this come to be in the condition that it is. Dams are supposed to be highly regulated structure that are checked regularly. How were the weaknesses not spotted. Why did the structure not have an emergency valve system capable of quickly reducing dam levels quickly in an emergency. Especially so, when their need had been previously recognised.

    Well it is not too difficult to realise that with all of the hollowed out public service and the years Tory underinvestment and austerity that absolutely critical infrastructure like this dam has been allowed to crumble and rot.

    And crumble and rot it has. An example of crumbling Britain under an elitist Conservative Government and if the village town is washed away a signal to the world as to what a poor unregulated country the UK is.

    No wonder the BBC are playing it down, asking no questions as to why this has happened, how many other similar dams could be at risk.

    Dodgy but stable said the man at the top. You’ll all be alright and then he fucks off whilst the poor bastards wonder if they’ll ever return to their homes.

    Bo ho ho, indeed Boris ….and if the dam collapses?

  107. Terry callachan says:

    If you check rules about voting you will see that it says you can vote by post in
    England Scotland wales
    But not Northern Ireland for some reason

    If you are away from home or abroad

    You do not need to give a reason why you are away or abroad

    As I’ve said before I think the use of the words
    “resident at an address ” and “registered at an address ” in the rules for voting are misleading on purpose

    Just how many people think that these two phrases mean the same thing and treat them as such
    And just how much checking do the checking officers do to find out if a person registered at an address are actually resident there

    I don’t think they do any checks other than send a form once a year to the address asking the occupier who lives there

  108. Sinky says:

    Another cracker from SNP basher Michael Glackin in Sunday Times. Without any thought he compares Ireland’s GDP without giving the actual rate of growth while blaming Derek Mackay for Scotland’s low growth.
    Clue. One of these countries is independent

  109. RM says:

    Anyone living in Scotland would have to be residents for at least ten years before being eligible to vote in an independence country’s vote.

  110. wullie says:

    Heart of Galloway
    Interactive Voter Response:
    Official Household Enquiry Response Website for Highland and Western Isles Electoral Registration Office

    Copyright © Idox plc.
    looks like idox are in the system ready to serve the union.

    I filled the form in some weeks ago

  111. Effijy says:

    I had to laugh at Bojo the Clown on the news where
    He flew in to use his superior intellect in assessing
    The situation.

    “ We have a dodgy dam that is still holding.
    We have to repair the dam to stop the water coming
    Out and flooding the homes below”.

    Pure Genius only ever equaled by a wee boy in the Netherlands
    Who stuck a finger in a Dyke.

    Can I clarify that the comment above has no intentional link with a Scottish Tory Leader!
    The term Dyke should only refer to a retaining stone wall .

  112. robbo says:

    Cheer a dreich Sunday morning up. Apparently some wee guy with funny tash isn’t happy.

  113. Effijy says:

    BBC news proclaiming Boris is giving a bonus £1.8 Billion to the NHS.
    In the last few days he also offered an extra £2 Billion for No deal preparations
    He is to up the £1.5 Billion bribe to the DUP and of course he suggested that
    He will pick up the over budget Crossrail costs and split £300,000 with the DUP, Scotland and Wales.

    So it seems like Boris in times of austerity can pledge £1 Billion for each day he has been PM.

    Rumour Bojo is planing to build a Multi-Story building In Money Forest Way.

  114. call me dave says:

    Oor Maggie ‘the current bun’ still not sure of independence.
    Going down with ship!

    Given the key to the door and a free pass she tells the interviewer on radio shortbread …Naw! Can’t do it. 🙁

  115. Hamish100 says:

    With The Tories promises on pretendy “extra money” to everybody under the heading of fiscal responsibility they will need to put the figure on a bendy bus with the extra length.

    Oops have the done the bus thing already? ?

  116. galamcennalath says:

    All evidence suggests Scottish LibDems are not serious about staying in the EU.

    When their oppose Brexit for the whole UK strategy fails, what’s their Plan B?

    They will jump off the cliff with all their other BritNat buddies!

  117. naina tal says:

    R M/Graeme
    Like you, no doubt in my mind there was joogery pokery going on in the referendum. Remember we were against at least 3 political parties with a long history of dishonesty in all its various forms. What they did was quite clever (in a cunning sort of way). They to all intents and purposes avoided the smoking gun by using ALL the frauds that different people have since suspected. But they spread the frauds around. Stolen postal votes here, missing ballots there etc. So we couldn’t get a good hit at them.
    There were of course the universal ones: The vow! And the entire English political system including Civil Service illegally involving themselves.

  118. Capella says:

    Before the 2014 referendum, Local Authorities updated the electoral roll to ensure that each individual completed the registration as opposed to the “head of household” doing it. This was to remove the possibility of fraud – they said.

    Some LAs also announced that registration would be used to track down historic poll tax dodgers, thus threatening people in deprived areas who would be the most likely to dodge the tax (and to vote YES).

    Alex Salmond quickly announced an amnesty for historic poll tax non payment.

    After the referendum, prior to the 2015 GE, there was a second update of the electoral register but this time the “head of household” was reinstated as the person responsible for filling in the returns.

    That’s my recollection FWIW.

    In any future referendum we should definitely do as Craig Murray has advised and bring in the EU body who oversees elections to ensure fairness, the OSCE.

  119. jfngw says:


    The LibDem’s plan B is to leave the EU, they see the Remain position as an opportunity. But it is an opportunity to gain seats, nothing else, their idea is other parties should stand down to give them a free run. They have no intention of doing this in Scotland because they would need to stand down in nearly every seat.

    Never trust a LibDem, they are basically Tories that weren’t quite good enough to make it in the Tory party. After Brexit they are more than likely to vote for every Tory policy, just look at their leaders voting record to get an idea of their morals.

  120. jfngw says:

    Having seen some of the uber unionist journalist it would seem their greatest worry is that independence will restrict access to the Scotch Pie. Maybe we just need to reassure them that these pies will still be available after independence (they should have EU protected status, the pies not the journalists).

  121. McBoxheid says:

    SilverDarling says:
    3 August, 2019 at 2:06 pm


    Are the National and the SNP trying to pre empt the new WBB? I see a few SNP politicians re tweeting the supplement debunking Yoon myths.
    It makes sense to have the message coming from as many sources as possible. If it was only Wings over Scotland, people might think “Oh, that Stuart Campbell, he’s that foul mouthed nationalist from Wings over Scotland I’ve read about on twitter. I don’t trust him.” Having it from as many sources as possible might just convince the not yet decided that it must be true.

    If you are a true blue one nation britnat, then you would probably throw any WBB straight in the bin, because you would not want to read anything written by a Scottish nationalist. Hearing it from many sources might plant that seed of doubt.

    If you are one of the undecided, having it come from more than one direction might get you to start thinking about all those dodgy party politics that you had a wee bit of doubt about, like the rape clause, like tory fiscal policy, like the one nation guff, like the extremists in the cabinet.

    If you were a Ruth Davidson or David Mundell fan, you might disagree with their being sidelined and although you have believed the Westminster message in the past, there is now a wee bit of doubt in your mind. The same message from multiple sources might be what it takes to realise that there is another way.

    The fact that all the lies have been debunked by many, will make you think about your country in other terms. Make you realise that Scotland is not the only country in the world that would fail at independence.

    60 odd other nations have broken free of British rule and none of them have asked to be taken back under the heel of imperial greed and deceit.

    The more sources the message germinates from, the harder it is to close that message down.

  122. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    What a spectacularly good read is the Sunday National today. Throughout.
    I almost felt sorry for Ruth Davidson after Andrew Tickell’s evisceration of her.

  123. Douglas says:

    Graeme says:
    4 August, 2019 at 8:12 am
    “I’ve no doubt the 2014 Referendum was rigged although I’ve no evidence to back it up, but I live in Dundee and in the lead up to the vote Yes was everywhere,car stickers, banners, flags etc everyone I spoke to was yes”

    Absolutely, in my constituency Edinburgh North (Leith) in the build up to the Ref there were plenty flags (Yes & Saltires), stickers, banners etc out. In the final week, there was almost a festive atmosphere on Leith Walk and there seemed to be an optimistic feeling amongst people. How the vote come out at 60% No and 40% Yes, I will never know. However, as my polling did not have a bar code, I have always suspected some foul play.

  124. Colin Alexander says:

    The YES campaign also canvassed voters directly and their own canvassing figures indicated that YES was likely to lose.

    We are overlooking the biggest issues here: much of the NO campaign was based on falsehoods. The biggest lie being The Vow, that Scotland would obtain Home Rule, Devo to the Max, following a No vote. (Not forgetting a NO vote guarantees Scotland’s membership of the EU).

    When winning a referendum is based on who can tell the most persuasive lies and make the most convincing false promises, and false predictions, without ever being held to account for those, it renders the whole referendum process as corrupt. The same happened in 2016 for EU Ref. The right-wing factions of the Tory party etc told the biggest whoppers to win. They are now the UK Govt or its allies.

    Let’s not overlook the fact the YES campaign also played this game of predictions regarding oil prices and most notably future mutual co-operation between rUK and Scotland to enable a smooth transition to an independent Scottish Parliament with ongoing monetary and institutional union. Does anybody still believe a smooth transition with mutual co-operation, all done and dusted in 18 months from devo-Scotland to indy-Scotland?

    Probably the biggest reason YES lost is because the NO campaign exposed the YES campaign’s incredibly naive false premise that the UK would give prior agreement to cooperate and work with Scotland if Scotland voted YES, especially regarding sharing the Pound.

    The truth was later admitted by the head of the cUK Civil Service: that independence for Scotland was regarded as a dangerous threat to the UK State, just like a war situation, so was treated that way.

    Which brings me back to vote rigging. The UK state will try to win, at any cost, by any means. The first casualty in “war” is the truth. Democracy is often another casualty of war.

    And the UK state still has 99.9999% of the influence on media outlets, including 100% of the BBC.

  125. misteralz says:

    I’m not the only one who felt like that on September the 19th, then? Everywhere felt shellshocked. Everywhere.

    In other news, I’ve just filled out my online Visa application for Curaçao. And I was able to fill in the correct country of birth and nationality. I usually lie in protest, tbh.

  126. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Colin Alexanderat 11.58

    “The YES campaign also canvassed voters directly and their own canvassing figures indicated that YES was likely to lose.”

    Can you provide any evidence to support this contentious statement?

  127. Terry callachan says:

    Hello wullie your post at 9.01 re idox doing the online collation of household residents in Scotland.
    I checked a bit about the company , there is a presentation on YouTube that they made to secure the contract with Glasgow council it’s worth watching, the company is registered in England and it’s head office is in England.
    Their solicitor is someone who worked for midlothian council
    The directors have worked with each other in other companies
    Not that any of this means anything but it does strike me as odd that we could not get a Scottish company to do this work

  128. galamcennalath says:

    Andrew Tickell’s article on Davidson in the National is good, but his description of where the Tories in Scotland are, is spot on …..

    “The party of Alister Jack. The political wing of Scotland’s private schools. The landlord’s and landowner’s friend. Uncritical proponents of mass incarceration, however much it costs, and however little good it achieves. A party for people prepared to put up with any indignity at the hands of the UK Government, so long as the humiliation comes fully Union-Jack branded.

    And that’s all there is. A union preserved for a time. A triumph of personal PR. The husk of an unthinking party, tactically soulless, largely unreformed, surviving on one slogan, boosted by a few seats but exerting no real influence on anything that matters.”

    The state of the BritNat parties in Scotland is a reflection of the health of the Union – terminally ill with very little meaningful life left. It it wee an animal, it would cruel not to put it out of its misery.

  129. Hamish100 says:

    Colin Alexander – you do really throw in statements without evidence don’t you!

    Just watched BBC dateline London 5 non Scots ( 2 English) talk at length about Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland and of course England. I wonder if this is called BBC balance?

    Yip no Irish or Welsh representation either so why did we have polly Toynbee ( pal of Tony Blair) telling us what we think? The BBC link man did try to emphasise that the level of potential violence in Scotland was less than in Northern Ireland over Brexit. Unbelievable.

  130. galamcennalath says:

    Hamish100 says:

    I wonder if this is called BBC balance?

    As things stand, for balance we would need to have other programmes with panels comprising only SNP, Green, and independents like The Rev and WGD.

    They would sit and discuss Westminster issues and topics outwith Scotland. No BritNat input whatsoever. And of course they would be broadcast UK wide. Folks in London would get no alternatives to watch.

    That WOULD be balance in the current regime!

  131. Cubby says:

    If anyone really thinks Colin Alexander is a Scottish independence supporter then they have not been paying attention.

  132. SilverDarling says:

    Andrew Tickell is able to peel away the layers of failed politicians like no other political commentator. I love that he has directed his laser focus at Davidson.

    I remember his dissection of Johann Lamont trying to work a room and how ill suited she was to her role. It was excruciating.

    When he writes his great novel the characterisation will be superb.

  133. sassenach says:

    I liked it better when we referred to Colin Alexander as “Coco”, he is fooling naebody!!

  134. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi Graeme at 8:12 am.

    You typed,
    “I remember watching the results on the TV as they came in and although I knew we lost before the Dundee vote was announced I waited to see the Dundee vote believing it was gonna be a massive Yes and I couldn’t believe it was only around 52% as I remember, it just didn’t feel right.

    I spoke to a canvasser and he felt exactly the same, he and his fellow canvassers thought it was gonna be 68-70% in Dundee judging from what they was hearing on the doorsteps.”

    Dundee was actually 57% Yes.
    Here are the 4 Yes-voting authorities, with the turnout in each.

    Dundee 57%……………….. Turnout 78.8%
    West Dunbartonshire 54.0% Turnout 87.9%
    Glasgow 53.5%……………..Turnout 75%
    North Lanarkshire 51.1%….Turnout 84.4%

    The average turnout across Scotland was 84.6%.

    The highest turnouts were all in No-voting authorities. The top 4 were,
    East Dunbartonshire 91.0%
    East Renfrewshire 90.4%
    Stirling 90.1%
    Falkirk 88.7%

    Maybe voters in Dundee and Glasgow assumed from their own cities that it was gonna be a Yes result nationally and didn’t bother voting?
    What if Dundee and Glasgow had had an 85% turnout – and all the extra were Yes votes? That would be an extra 73,705 Yes votes (Glasgow 48,550; Dundee 25,155).
    Add these to the 1,617,989 actual Yes votes and we would have had 1,691,694 against 2,001,926 No votes.

    The problem would then appear to be that even with increased turnout, not enough voters were persuaded to vote Yes.

    Info from:-

    An interesting comment further down that page:-

    Allegations of voting irregularities

    Ten voters discovered that someone had voted under their names at polling stations in Glasgow,[460] a method of fraud termed ‘personation’, and this led to an investigation by Police Scotland.[460]

    During a BBC results broadcast, Scottish Conservative Party leader Ruth Davidson said that “No” campaigners had been “taking tallies” of postal votes and that those showed that the “No” campaign was in the lead.[461] This resulted in complaints to the Electoral Commission because the Scottish Independence Referendum Act 2013 stated that people attending proceedings related to the receipt of postal votes must not attempt to ascertain the outcome or “communicate any information” from that voting.[461] The Electoral Commission, who could not investigate criminal allegations, passed the complaints onto Police Scotland.[461] A formal investigation was subsequently opened,[462] which concluded that there was no criminality.[463]

    According to official Russian observers, the conditions under which the votes were counted were not up to international standards and that the procedure used made it impossible to check on irregularities.[464] Russia’s criticism came just months after the international community had rejected the results of a Kremlin-backed referendum held in the Russian-occupied Ukrainian territory of Crimea.[464] Russian officials said that the strong performance of the Scottish National Party (SNP) at the 2015 UK general election confirmed their suspicions about the Scottish independence referendum.[465]

  135. robbo says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    4 August, 2019 at 1:12 pm
    Hi Graeme at 8:12 am.

    Aye, the shocking thing for me in that debacle was Stirling and Falkirk voting NO.

    Wullie Wallace would be wondering from thon place up – WTF,why did I bother!

  136. robbo says:

    Brian Doonthetoon says:
    4 August, 2019 at 1:12 pm
    Hi Graeme at 8:12 am.

    Aye, the shocking thing for me in that debacle was Stirling and Falkirk voting NO.

    Wullie Wallace would be wondering from thon place up high – WTF,why did I bother!

  137. Colin Alexander says:

    Dave McEwan Hill

    I have never seen the canvassing figures by the YES campaign, have you?

    However, Alex Salmond was reported in the Guardian on 17 September 2014, as saying: “”We’re still the underdogs in this campaign”. Unless he was lying, I see no reason why he would say this, if canvassing showed a clear YES lead.

    Other quotes indicated he believed momentum was for for YES and the vote would be much closer than many expected.

    I accept this article seems to suggest my assertion is wrong: but it’s vague about how high YES pollsters recorded support for yes.

    Ultimately, Alex Salmond and the SNP and the leaders of the YES campaign later accepted YES lost the Indyref vote. This does not answer your point regarding pre-vote canvassing but, it if canvassing had indicated YES polling was significantly higher than the actual voting figures, it’s obvious they would have challenged the result.

  138. crazycat says:

    @ Capella at 10.26

    I’m pretty sure you’ve got that the wrong way round.

    Individual Voter Registration was introduced after the 2014 referendum. and remains in place. (It was introduced a few months earlier in England and Wales – the system in Northern Ireland had long been different –

    Alex Salmond’s action re the Poll Tax is described here : – from the date of the article (2 October 2014) this must have occurred after his resignation but before he actually stood down.

  139. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “If you are a true blue one nation britnat, then you would probably throw any WBB straight in the bin, because you would not want to read anything written by a Scottish nationalist. Hearing it from many sources might plant that seed of doubt.”

    I’m all for the National doing this, but the idea that any “true blue one nation britnat” is any more inclined to listen to the National than to Wings is, um, perhaps a tad optimistic.

  140. Petra says:

    Who in Scotland wants to be a party to this?

    ‘UN report finds Westminster has blood of children on its hands.’

  141. Dan says:

    @Douglas at 11:43 am

    …as my polling did not have a bar code, I have always suspected some foul play.

    Some ballot papers allegedly not having barcodes on the reverse was interesting. However, if one looks at how the contracts that cover the voting system are put out to tender and procured, then one can see that it is not a single national process, and for example Angus, Dundee and Perthshire appears to be included in a single contract which runs in 5 year cycles (current one with Idox expiring in 2020), whereas North Lanarkshire appears from a quick search to have awarded a 3 year contract to Idox in 2017 that was previously with another company called Democracy Counts.
    Whether certain areas utilising different contracts and therefore companies and printers explains discrepancies with ballot papers I’m not sure.

    All my ballot papers including and since the 2014 indyref have had barcode and serial numbers on the reverse. I have a routine where every time I vote I take my polling card with me, and once handed the ballot paper I enter the booth and proceed to check then copy the numbers on my ballot paper to my polling card.

    I believe the added complexity and logistics of hurriedly transporting ballot boxes in the dark of night to central counting locations is a bit weird.
    I agree with others up thread that they could easily be initially counted at the polling station where all interested parties, local voters on the electorate, and adjudicators can witness firsthand the outcome.

    Some rural polling stations only have a few hundred voters. I know of one polling station that due to the difficult local topography actually had two ballot boxes, with wait for this… one box only having one person on the electoral list eligible to use it… and I understand they didn’t turn up! Maybe that was because due to those circumstances their vote would not really be be anonymous.

  142. Capella says:

    @ crazycat – you may be right, I’m relying on memory here. But I do think Alex Salmond announced in Holyrood that he was going to stop Local Authorities from pursuing poll tax non payers. It was obviously a move by LAs to deter many poor people (therefore YES voters) from registering to vote in the referendum.

    Unfortunately, I’m not in the mood to research all this ATM – it’s a driech and drizzly Sunday! 🙂

  143. Effijy says:

    Haven’t been in Asda for a few weeks and shocked at so many major price increases.

    Some sardines I buy have gone from 99p to £1.25.

    Other items I make 7,12 and 15% up.

    Guess they are copying rivals Tesco who put up the price of over a thousand
    Items by an average 11%.

    Inflation is only 2%.
    All this before Brexit too.

    Where are the Asda Bosses at Indy Ref 1 who warned an independent Scotland
    Would face these types of price rises?

    Further to travel but I’ll be heading to German owned Aldi and Lidle from now on.

  144. Haggishunter says:

    So, the Brexit English Tory party is having a purge, and Ruth has not been a supporter of BJ.
    She kind of looks silly now, the sycophantic Scots Indy hater has served a purpose and it’s time to get back in her box.
    How’s that feel Ruth? Will you find a day job to get on with?

  145. Orri says:

    Worth repeating that the survey researching who voted how post referendum by its very nature only asked those actually resident in Scotland.

    When you’ve a postal vote registration system so lax all you have to do is promise to think about living here then it’s hardly surprising that it can be abused.

    The result was still a narrow defeat but would explain partly some of the disparity between some areas that were almost certainly Yes if the feeling on the ground was right and that declared.

    A Scottish tax code would sort some of that out assuming the “technical” hitches that has some residents of parts of Scotland not getting one have been sorted. Not a poll tax as such as it’s not flat rate and you don’t pay anything if you don’t earn enough.

    That said. The sneering at those booing Johnson ignores the salient point that even if every single one of them was unemployed by the current standards where an hour a week gets you off the list then he is still the current leader of a party who’s policies provide the backdrop to that situation. Aristos probably did the same even in the tumbril not the way to the guillotine. Now do tax cuts help the lower paid when the government take more from them indirectly through VAT and duties and seem set to take even more of inflation ramps up.

  146. David says:

    Looks as if Ruth is past her sell by date .Jo is the new goody 2 shoes .
    If Nicola does not get a move on with Indy 2 will she be out as well .
    Alec Neil told Alec Salmond on the Alec Salmond show some time ago he knew the Indy ref was lost .I thought lost then night before won .
    I do know in my area which voted no vow made no difference minds were made up .I have a postal vote parties are allowed to be present when boxes are opened and counted .No appeals were made and Salmond would have if he thought anything was wrong and its a lot more secure than online voting or so called online opinion polling want to know what we think go round the doors and ask

  147. David says:

    Sassenach and Starlaw thankyou for your comments and the humour good to see it .

  148. Thepnr says:


    “If Nicola does not get a move on with Indy 2 will she be out as well.”

    Hahaha yes David we all believe you.

    The only thing that’s on the way out is the Union with England, Nicola Sturgeon knows exactly when to play her cards and that will be on her terms.

    As Sun Tzu said “Wait by the river long enough and the body of your enemy will float by you.”

    That is where we are, the bodies are floating past already, look at May, look at Davidson. The stars are aligning with the clown Bojo as prime Minister. How long might it be before he is found out to be the arse that he obviously is?

    I’ve no idea but it really can’t be too long and then Scotland goes hell for leather for her Independence. Keep trying though David, we’re all ears LOLOL

  149. McBoxheid says:

    Rev. Stuart Campbell says:
    4 August, 2019 at 1:34 pm

    “If you are a true blue one nation britnat, then you would probably throw any WBB straight in the bin, because you would not want to read anything written by a Scottish nationalist. Hearing it from many sources might plant that seed of doubt.”

    I’m all for the National doing this, but the idea that any “true blue one nation britnat” is any more inclined to listen to the National than to Wings is, um, perhaps a tad optimistic.
    Possibly, but the more sources that release this info, the greater the chances of it being discussed in conversation where a “true blue one nation britnat” is part of a family conversation, mates down the pub, etc. The slow drip feed of the truth from many sources may well take root, because truth is always the simplest argument.

    Even if these true bluer’s start worrying and want to discuss it among themselves, they can’t get away from the truth. Some might just open their eyes. Of course they will also listen to their party denials, but when the wool falls away from their eyes, they will hate their party, themselves and everyone else too and feel the need to blame someone. (Aye, it will probably be the SNP.)

    When they realise their party has lied to them since the time they were able to understand what they thought the truth was, they won’t want to vote for their party again. They might not vote at all in the indy2 ref. That’s one vote less for their union. But if they are as angry as they deserve to be, (at their party, at the press, at themselves), they might just vote yes.

  150. David says:

    Thepnr That SNP conference in October Indy not officially on the agenda We are hearing nothing about what the plan is if whoever the PM is next year says no and it will be .What then .
    I want us not to leave the EU but come Indy we will be out Has anyone given any thought to should or could an Indy Scotland stand alone .
    That might reassure the people who voted leave at the EU ref and JO whats the plan if you lose your seat at the general election .Labour have suffered because of better together .But your party went one better coalition with the Tories

  151. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Hi David.

    If there is a general election in the next couple of months, I reckon Swinesome will be looking for a safe, English, Lib-Dem seat (eyes on #10), leaving John Nicholson to retake HIS seat.

  152. Gary says:

    I don’t know what happened in Dec 17 but whatever it was has killed her support. Anyone know?

    She can’t blame being on maternity leave either. Whilst her popularity dropped whilst she was away it rose to a similar level upon her return.

    I don’t think I’ve EVER heard of a leader losing SEVENTY PER CENT in her popularity ratings!! And that’s with her OWN PARTY MEMBERS!!

  153. Jockanese Wind Talker says:

    “The 8th of December 2017: The day hard Brexit died”

    Could this be the reason for the slump in 2017, the Withdrawal Agreement including the ‘Backstop’ seen as a sellout of Brexit?

  154. David says:

    Another thing guys when Cathy Newman asked Jo Swinson and Ed Davey in the CH 4 news leadership debate would you press the nuclear button I believe both said yes maybe Stu should investigate

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