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Wings Over Scotland

The big idea

Posted on August 13, 2019 by

Crazy stuff happens when we have a thought.

Buckle in for a bumpy ride if you don’t like pictures of my ugly mug.

[EDIT: updated with more coverage]

The general reaction of the Scottish media and political sphere was to fall over itself in a rush to find people to immediately rubbish the notion of a Wings list party, which rather suggested to us that it must be a good idea.

The plan to appeal to moderate, mainstream voters was unsurprisingly attacked bitterly by both the most extreme left-wing party at Holyrood and the most extreme right-wing party at Holyrood:

The shriekingly intolerant “woke” end of the Yes movement also went into a complete meltdown, including a demented editorial on a little-read blog which – ironically – had enthusiastically and aggressively advocated voting for fringe far-left parties on the list at the 2016 Holyrood election, insisting that “unity in diversity is a much stronger base for transformative action than one-dimensional party politics”.

(The concept of “diversity” in the Yes movement there presumably being used in its lesser-known sense of “exclusively views that agree with mine, with all others being intolerable outrages against basic human decency”.)

Alert readers may recall that RISE, the party being referred to in that article, gathered just 0.5% of the list vote in the subsequent election, less than a tenth of what it would have required to win even one seat. Its best result was getting 2,454 votes in Glasgow, one more than the “A Better Britain – Unionist Party” which has never been heard of before or since.

(The minimum vote required to win a seat in the region was 14,766.)

But anyway.

The events of the last few days have revealed an alarming lack of knowledge of how the Scottish Parliament’s electoral system works even among relatively politically-engaged members of the public, so it’d probably be useful to quickly lay out a few basics here.

1. Holyrood votes are NOT ranked by preference and are NOT transferable.

You have two votes – one for a constituency MSP to represent your immediate local area, usually a part of a town or city, eg Glasgow Provan. (We’ll call this the “local” vote to avoid having to type the word “constituency” over and over again)

You also have one vote to elect multiple regional MSPs for your general area, eg Mid Scotland And Fife. There are eight such electoral regions in Scotland, each returning seven MSPs.

2. The simplest explanation of Holyrood’s electoral system is that it’s designed to ensure that each party’s total representation – local and regional MSPs combined – is equal to its proportional share of the REGIONAL vote alone.

(In practice this is rarely achieved precisely, but it gets pretty close. In 2016, for example, Scottish Labour got 19% of the regional vote and ended up with 19% of total seats. The Tories got 23% of the regional vote and 24% of total seats.)

On the most recent polls, the total pro-independence regional vote is sitting (as in fact it has been for the last two years) at around 45%, which if the system works as designed would mean Unionist parties having a majority of seats and any vote on a second independence referendum being defeated.

2. The hypothetical Wings party would NOT contest any local seats, only the regional vote. So you’d vote for your local candidate with your local vote (in our Glasgow Provan example the sitting MSP is the excellent Ivan McKee of the SNP), and for the Wings Party with your regional vote.

3. Why? Because in Glasgow, and also in most other Scottish regions, you’d be roughly 10 times more likely to get a regional Wings Party MSP than a regional SNP one from the same number of votes. That’s because the SNP currently hold all nine of the local seats in the Glasgow region.

What that means is that under the Holyrood electoral system the SNP’s regional vote gets divided by 10 (or to be precise, their number of seats in the region plus one) before the counting to elect regional MSPs begins.

So even though the SNP won the actual regional vote in 2016 by miles:

…the EFFECTIVE vote was actually this, with the SNP in fourth place:

Because their nine local seats meant the SNP’s regional vote got divided by 10. Which meant that the seven regional seats were allocated like this:

SEAT 1: Labour with 59,151 votes
SEAT 2: Labour with 29,575 votes (59,151/2)
SEAT 3: Tories with 29,533 votes
SEAT 4: Greens with 23,398 votes
SEAT 5: Labour with 19,717 votes (59,151/3)
SEAT 6: Labour with 14,788 votes (59,151/4)
SEAT 7: Tories with 14,766 votes (29,533/2)

The SNP’s adjusted vote of 11,110 was 3,656 short of the Seat 7 winning total, which means the SNP would have needed an EXTRA 36,569 votes (33% more than they actually got) just to get a single regional seat.

(Because they’d then have had 147,670 and dividing that by 10 would have given them 14,767 and let them pip the Tories to the final seat by one vote.)

So the final outcome of the 2016 election in the Glasgow region was this:

SNP: 9 seats (all local)
Labour: 4 seats (all regional)
Tories: 2 seats (all regional)
Greens: 1 seat (regional)

That’s a total of 10 pro-indy MSPs and six Unionists.

But if everyone who voted SNP on the regional vote had instead voted for the hypothetical Wings Party, the seats would have been allocated like this:

SEAT 1: Wings Party with 111,101 votes
SEAT 2: Labour with 59,151 votes
SEAT 3: Wings Party with 55,551 votes
SEAT 4: Wings Party with 37,034 votes
SEAT 5: Labour with 29,575 votes
SEAT 6: Tories with 29,533 votes
SEAT 7: Wings Party with 27,775 votes

That’s four pro-indy MSPs in the region instead of one. The SNP would still have their nine local MSPs, making an overall total of 13 pro-indy MSPs and just three Unionists, rather than 10 vs 6.

Annie Wells, James Kelly and Pauline McNeill would all have lost their seats (as would Patrick Harvie), replaced by Wings Party candidates.

Multiply that result across eight regions and you’d end up with 24 more pro-indy MSPs and 24 fewer Unionists, for a huge total pro-independence majority of 57 seats, with the new Holyrood comprising 93 pro-indy MSPs vs 36 Unionists.

(The reality wouldn’t be quite that simple due to the specific circumstances of different regions, but the general principle holds.)

And even if only one-third of SNP voters had voted Wings in the region (a more realistic prospect than all of them doing it), the boost to pro-indy numbers in the Holyrood chamber would still be almost as large – the seats would come out at 3 Lab, 2 Wings, 1 Con, 1 Green, or three pro-indy regional MSPs instead of one.

While the Holyrood electoral system isn’t complicated as such, it does take a bit of time to explain, as we’ve just seen. But the short version of all the above is that in every single region of Scotland, a Wings Party vote would effectively count for between five and 10 times as many votes as an SNP one in terms of electing pro-indy regional MSPs.

4. The key difficulty, of course – as this site has pointed out previously – is in persuading SNP voters to make the quite counter-intuitive step of voting for two different parties in the same election. (It’s occasionally been suggested – overly cynically in our view – that the system was designed deliberately to that end.)

In our previous articles we noted, correctly, that SNP voters would normally be highly resistant to giving their regional vote to minor parties like the Greens or RISE or Solidarity, for a whole range of reasons. In the 2016 election, 90% of SNP local voters also voted SNP in the regional vote.

The crucial potential difference this time is we know from polling that SNP voters broadly tend to have pretty favourable feelings towards Wings Over Scotland. If – IF – that were to be translated into votes the tipping point required to actually start winning seats, which RISE etc were always going to fall far short of, would be pretty easily reached.

(For one seat in a region you’d need to get around 1 out of every 7 SNP votes.)

5. But if it didn’t work, could voting for a Wings party damage the pro-indy parties and lose a Yes majority at Holyrood? Well, in an abstract theoretical sense it could do, but in reality the arithmetic is very strongly against that outcome.

The only way it could be a real danger would be if the SNP vote lost a significant number of their local seats and therefore needed to pick more up on the regional lists. Given the shambolic state of Scottish Labour and the Scottish Tories that’s not hugely likely, but some of their majorities are small and nothing is impossible.

So in our Glasgow example, let’s imagine that the SNP lost five of their nine local seats – we’ll say three go to Labour and two to the Tories – and that a third of their regional vote had gone to the Wings Party. We won’t bore you with the full working here, but the outcomes would be these:

SNP KEEPS 100% OF REGIONAL VOTE: 5 SNP, 1 Green, 1 Labour

1/3 OF SNP VOTE TO WINGS: 3 Wings, 2 SNP, 1 Green, 1 Labour 

Result: no change. Both outcomes deliver 6 pro-indy MSPs to one Unionist.

So that’s the theory. Our notional plan isn’t about “splitting” the pro-independence vote, it’s about multiplying it, by a factor of up to 10.

(How much it got multiplied would depend on how many pro-indy voters gave us their regional vote, and also on who won local seats. But current polling suggests that once again the vast bulk of those would go to the SNP, so the likely multiplication factor is at the higher end of the scale.)

Unionists don’t like the plan, for obvious reasons. The Scottish media don’t like the plan, for partly different but equally obvious ones. SNP hyper-loyalists don’t like the plan because they want the SNP to have total power rather than having to work with anyone else, which is a natural enough impulse for politicians (and also would-be politicians) but on the current trajectory will lead to Holyrood’s pro-indy majority being lost in the name of narrow party interest.

And the “radical” woke fringe absolutely hate the plan because they despise Wings far, far more than they despise being in the UK under Tory governments.

To be honest, folks, we can live with that as a list of enemies. And we fervently hope the plan never has to be put into action, because that would mean it was 2021 and the SNP had completely blown both their 2016 mandate and the best chance of winning an independence referendum Scotland will ever have.

But as a Plan B, it looks pretty good to us.

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  1. 13 08 19 16:56

    The big idea | speymouth

603 to “The big idea”

  1. Patsy Millar says:

    STV photo looks disturbingly hairy!

  2. annie says:

    Looks pretty good to me too

  3. Rob Outram says:

    I’m on the fence with this idea. On the one hand I agree that the numbers could add up as laid out, on the other I’d fear for the hammering the candidates would get from the media, unionist politicians and some elements of the SNP.

    Enough of the fence sitting pro independence minded voters might see through the mountain of excrement thrown and vote WOS, but I’m just not sure.

  4. Frank Gillougley says:

    Game on.

  5. Den Cairns says:

    Pretty blinkin good to me n’aw. Think I’ll need to employ Text To Speech and leisurely digest it again in the caboose. Chapeau n Kudos Mr C.

  6. handclapping says:

    Fine, fine. But what currency would you use?

  7. Marcia says:

    The comment from Jim Sillars just made me laugh out loud. He has been trying to split the pro-Independence for years. Good publicity for the website. Advertising that no money can buy. Should attract a few curious soft no’s. That is what we need.

  8. Heaver says:

    Keravan didn’t mention List Votes once! What side is he on?

    Or does he just not possess the mental muscle to understand?

  9. Robin says:

    Who the hell is that ZOOMER Mark Smith????

  10. Christopher says:

    Right, but as a yesser, I do have to say it isn’t super democratic, right? What you’re essentially doing is doubling the weight of the yes vote – if only 45% of people are voting for yes parties, then we deserve 45% of the seats, plain and simple (though with the slight lack of proportionality, 45% could end up with a slight majority anyway). If your ambition is to win support off of labour, or anyone else, who support independence but not the SNP, fine, you have my support. If your ambition is to hack the system, promote tactical voting like this that is a slippery slope towards a united better together list campaign too which can also blow us out the water, then you do not. The whole point of the regional vote is to let people NOT vote tactically – you vote tactically in your constituency, then your true preference in the list. The point is not for SNP voters to get all their constituency seats won, and then transfer across to another indy party to then also completely throw the proportionality off kilter. You end up with yes parties getting 60/70% off the seats from 45% of voters – that is NOT democratic. I want to win, but if we win we are going to win fair.

  11. Camy says:

    I’m trying to remember what the media used to call August…

  12. Thomas William Dunlop says:

    Sounds reasonable. Perhaps make a formal pact with the SNP before hand and you’ll sell it, no problem. The SNP & Wings as the new Romulus and Remus?

    However, I predict that we will need a plan B in the autumn, cause the way things are looking at Westminster, we might have to do a Baltic state type of déclaration of Independence, in the face of an aggressive, right wing, English nationalist government in London, that if it were first successful shutting down Westminster to push Brexit thru, Holyrood etc will be sure to suffer the same fate.

  13. jfngw says:

    I understand the system but vote SNP/SNP basically because there is too much about the Greens policies I disagree with. A Wings (or whatever the party name ends up as) would definitely give me the option of voting for another independence party. Hopefully this is academic and we will already be independent by 2021.

  14. Effijy says:

    With the Rev for it and the Scotsman and Jim Sillars against it
    We can rest assured that it must happen as it’s good for Scottish

    We do need a friendly positive name for the party founded by Wings.
    Scotland First Party?

  15. Macandroid says:

    Rob Outram et al @ 3:48

    I may have to duck from hammers – but what if the SNP supplied the extra candidates who didn’t make it on to the SNP list and stood instead for the Wings party?

    Surely a win win as SNP voters would be more likely to vote for them. Would non SNP folk vote for them? Maybe!?

  16. Ruglonian says:

    Due to folk being comfortable with their understanding of the FPTP system I think they view the Holyrood system, with D’hondt, backwards.

    I want to vote for a pro-indy party to represent me regionally.
    The regional vote is a measure of my representation calculated proportionally and the full range of partys stand for election so it offers the truest choice.
    I view that as the 1st vote.

    With my 2nd, constituency, vote I have – traditionally –
    the choice of Pro-Indy (SNP) or Unionist (Tory, Lab, LD), so with limited options I will lend that to the SNP to ensure that my votes can count towards enabling a pro-indy majority.

    Obviously it’s a different case for SNP supporters whose primary goal is to see an SNP majority and that’s where the ‘2 votes SNP’ safety net guideline comes in.

    However, for all of us who principally want a pro-indy majority in Holyrood, to advance the cause of independence, I think that framing the ‘1st’ and ‘2nd’ vote in reverse enables a much easier understanding of the system.

    I appreciate the discussion that this theoretical party has prompted, especially if it broadens folks understanding now, way in advance of when we actually need it!

  17. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “that is a slippery slope towards a united better together list campaign too which can also blow us out the water,”

    Um, how would that work? It makes no difference to us whether Unionist MSPs are Labour, Tory or Lib Dem. It could only work if a new Unionist list-only party was formed, and who’s got the clout to do that?

    “I want to win, but if we win we are going to win fair.”

    I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the other side isn’t playing fair.

  18. Ian Paterson says:

    Member of the SNP since 1968, not ower fond of everything they do, including Ms Sturgeon, my local MSP, although she is a workaholic and the best regarded politician in the current United Kingdom, bar none.
    I’ve thought about this ‘Wings Party’ since the idea was mooted and I have to say, No, no, no and No again.
    Independence for my country comes first with no additional fear of splitting any vote. The SNP has worked hard over the years to get to this point (maybe sometimes not as hard as it should have, particularly as of late) without a so called friendly intervention which has all the marks of it all going south, if you’ll excuse the pun.
    By all means, once the YES vote has won, another party, as I doubt that the SNP will exist in anywhere near its current format after forming the first government of independent Scotland.
    Please, please reconsider all and any of this, at least until after success in the hopefully soon independence vote.

  19. Cellar Shark says:

    Happy to stand on the list as a potential Wings MSP, even if I have to renounce my SNP membership.

  20. jfngw says:

    The SNP will obviously need to oppose the idea, if they endorse it the unionist will complain that they are effectively the same party and try to manipulate the result in their favour. You can be your bottom dollar they would try to have the new parties votes considered SNP votes if they can get away with it. There needs to be clear separation from the SNP.

  21. Gordon Keane says:

    I think a new pro Independence political Party is a good idea. I think the Greens have gone slightly off the rails of late. (And we need something to replace what used to be Labour) Of course, We do hope that we are Independent before 2021. But it looks like SNP leadership have been prevaricating far too long. Which is unfortunate.

  22. Ian McCubbin says:

    You ve had a real roasting by Express. I defended you saying that one here you proposed a joint way for Independence parties to get more seats.
    Remi fed others that express lies a lot.
    But please Stu fix it take them on

  23. Taranaich says:

    And the “radical” woke fringe absolutely hate the plan because they despise Wings far, far more than they despise being in the UK under Tory governments.

    Which is why I still support Wings, despite how much I loath your metalphobia 😛

  24. Gregory Beekman says:

    If Westminster uses the legal system to cause a delay to indyref2, then the election will happen before the referendum and we should consider using a Wings Party for the regional vote to show Scotland’s comittment to indyref2.

    What is your view on legal challenges to a new indyref, either brought by the Scottish Government to show Scotland doesn’t need permission to hold one or by the UK Government to show the opposite and ask the Courts for an injunction to halt indyref2 plans until the matter is resolved legally?

  25. Some important questions for most SNP voters would be

    1. “could we trust the new party? Would it behave in a mercurial manner and make it impossible for the SNP to govern competently?”

    2. Would it undermine the SNP on critial reforms like the Greens did when they voted to bring back sectarianism in soccer in Scotland – a huge boost for Unionism which thrives on racial, religious or other divides.

    3. Would it be a Campbell-led party that did not realise it was taking votes on-loan from the SNP and just bog down the governance of Scotland in policy nightmare wrangles?

    4. The key reason why middle of the road folk vote SNP is that they know that despite the propaganda on the BBC and press, the SNP run the NHS, Fire Service, Police, Education, social services etc etc better in Scotland than Labour does in Wales or the Tories do in England or the assorted crackpots do in NI (from time to time). Would Wings candidates understand this or just head off in their own canoe?

    5. How would candidates be selected? How could be ensure that they did not have more regard for themselves and their personal objectives than any understanding that they were elected to ensure a pro-independence majority in the Scottish Parliament?

  26. Unionist Media BDSM Club says:

    “5. But if it didn’t work, could voting for a Wings party damage the pro-indy parties and lose a Yes majority at Holyrood? Well, in an abstract theoretical sense it could do”


    One of the strongest arguments Stu has put forward is that if nearer the vote it looks like his plan might actually backfire, then he’d kill it off.

    As long as that was stuck to I really don’t see what the problem is. We either gets a plan that secures a pro-independence majority, or we get the status quo.

    In any other walk of life, you’d be mad not proceed with a plan on that basis.

  27. Fairliered says:

    If the SNP doesn’t want a new pro Independence Party, the answer is in their hands. Persuade your leaders to call a referendum before the next election – and start campaigning for it now!

  28. Taranaich says:


    Right, but as a yesser, I do have to say it isn’t super democratic, right?

    These aren’t super normal times. The very existence of the Scottish Parliament is at risk. It’s being discussed quite openly by the same people who are taking the UK out of the EU – and Scotland with it.

    I am abstaining from commenting on The Big Idea, as I have a bet with someone that there will be an indyref within this Parliament’s lifetime, which we will win, making this proposal obsolete. The entire point of Rev’s proposal is that it’s purely to ensure Scotland’s self-determination is not anti-democratically prevented by a cabal of parties funded, controlled, and operated out of Scotland.

  29. King Boab says:

    As an SNP party member I would be happy to resign from the party and stand for wings if needs be. I hope like yourself it won’t come to that and hopefully even the suggestion is enough of a kick to get the ball rolling again as I think there is too much waiting and seeing going on just now.

  30. Jings Lad – you must have been up all night getting through this lot, kudos to you my boy.

    I admit – I knee jerked when I first read the sBBC bollocks about you, that you were taking the SNP head on effectively splitting the Scottish votes. NOW having read and understood where you’re coming from and where you’re trying to get too – makes bloody good sense to me.

    You have my support and I suspect the support of many others too.

    Now sBBC – what are we going to do to you when we do get sIndependence – off to the knackers yard for most of you sados methinks.

  31. Andy Anderson says:

    If we do end up needing plan B in May 21 then this is a great idea. If the SNP do not work with list Wings then after independence they loose my vote. I hope common sense prevails.

  32. Albert Herring says:

    Hmm… people who supply deadly arms to despotic regimes, starve their own disabled citizens, deport elderly people who have been here since they were young children, think YOU’RE despicable?

  33. Conan the Librarian says:

    The sixth photo wasn’t bad…

  34. Newburghgowfer says:

    Put me down to contest Aberdeen as a Candidate. When does crowdfunding start, lets get the ball rolling?

  35. Capella says:

    Sounds great to me. Someone said that you can’t game the dHondt system but you can gamble with it. As you’re a gambling man I expect you’ve calculated the odds.

    My only quibble is – don’t rule out running in 2021 even if there is a successful independence referendum next year. The last thing we want is for a newly independent Holyrood to be stuffed full of the chancers currently gracing the chamber.

    Murdo no more, Wells no more, Tompkins no more, Kelly no more..

  36. Proud Cybernat says:

    Perhaps worth mentioning Rev that the Wings Party would not stand in South Scotland to give the SNP a clear run at the List seats they presently hold there.

    Also, I think this should go ahead whether we win IndyRef2 or not.

    Imagine we win IndyRef2 only for negotiations with WM to stall and go beyond May 2021. Imagine then a Unionist majority passing a ‘Confirmatory Referendum Bill’. Wings Party need to be in there to ensure that kinda shit cannot happen.

  37. Ian R Murray says:

    This seems like a fair way to tackle the unfairness of the D’Hondt system (in our case overwhelming support for an Independence Party, SNP)
    Many Scots voters still do not understand the voting system and do not “vote till they puke” the new party will give voters a positive destination for their vote.
    Start working on the manifesto Rev
    The OBFA which was brought down with the help of the sleekit Green party should be in there.
    Go Rev !

  38. David R says:

    May I propose Twisted Sister’s “We’re not gonna take it” as your parties theme tune

  39. Sharny Dubs says:

    I like the cut of your jib young Campbell.

    Count me in

  40. Richard Bruce says:

    The facts set down here, (concisely and clearly put as usual), has certainly persuaded me. I was sceptical at first, but reading this has made me change my mind and support you in this. So I really hope you go ahead with this plan because we in Scotland certainly need this kick up the backside more than we have ever needed since indyref. Roll on the Wings Party, we need you.

  41. MacAnRi says:

    Not sure about this – I always thought the list was the top up i.e. the bit that attempts to bring the proportionalty to the FPTP ‘local’ vote

  42. Ian brice says:

    The idea works in principle, however a new party isn’t the answer and not one set up by a controversial person.
    SNP and greens will do surely. The greens are already set up, have infrastructure and a voter base.

  43. ross says:

    This could be a good idea but you’re not the man to lead it.

    I like you but your profile won’t allow this to be a success.

    Salmond understood Sturgeon had to lead GE2015.

    Someone else should take this on.

    Your power is in quick information and rebuttal. There’s a difference between site views (mostly in private)… and discussing your name in public. You’re liked in private, not public. And that has an impact in electoral campaigns.

  44. Ann says:

    For Scottish government elections I have always voted SNP / Green, however with the shennanigans with the Greens in the current parliament I wasn’t.
    If Wings stood in the Regional vote, that’s where it would go.

  45. Liz g says:

    Proud Cybernat @ 4.41
    That’s how I’m thinking,as I’ve said on WGD and that Bella Caledonia site…
    I find the thought of that lot of British Nationalists inflicted on Holyrood on that bloody list,negotiating Scottish assets, liabilities Constitution and Faslane chilling.
    We need some way of ensuring that it’s Scottish interests that are being looked after and not Westminster’s.
    Not to mention as you said attempting to reverse the Yes vote.
    Although it I’m reading it right we’ve probably just horrified the Rev 🙂

  46. Martin says:

    Makes sense. I’ve grown uncomfortable with giving list vote to greens (as I previously did) so an alternative would be braw.

  47. Roland Smith says:

    The name of the party would matter I believe. Not sure what it would be. We would need to crowdfund the people standing and I would hope well known bloggers would stand, Rabbthe Bruce, , grousebeater, et al. I think a smart idea would be to state that in all policy areas they would back up the SNP but would fight tooth and nail for an independent Scotland. Preferably own currency pdq and Norway option to start with.

  48. Clootie says:

    Did some idiot say “they wanted to win fair?”. What planet has he been on.

    I never agreed with my second vote going to the greens. I do not trust them.

    I am sold on a Wings Parthy. It makes perfect sense to deny unionists and loony Harvie seats.

  49. Republicofscotland says:

    As you point out if the unionists and their media buddies hate the idea, it must be a winner for us.

    I hope the SNP sort themselves out and name the date, but if they make an arse of it then Wings will get my list vote.

    Oh I’d love to see the back of Kelly, Wells, Rennie, Cole-Hamilton, Tomkins etc, it would be worth it for that alone.

  50. Robert Peffers says:

    Seems to me some Wingers memories are short. In past Holyrood elections there were both Wingers and other SNP supporters who were of the opinion many of the SNP electorate were too stupid to understand the voting system and thought they had to choose other than an SNP candidate as their second choice party to vote for on the list vote. A sort of, “vote for the party you like best then in the second part vote for the party you like second best.

    That is some thought the hard of thinking electorate thought they couldn’t vote SNP/SNP and thus their list votes went to their second preference party and that was why the Labour, Tory and LibDems got more candidates into office from the list vote.

    That means, if it were true, the confusion may end up with even less votes for the SNP next time round.

  51. bobajock says:

    Benn saying this for a while.

    List seat allocation is a joke – designed to get the unionists in.

    A name for the party? WoS? SIP? perhaps SNP2?

  52. Thomas graham says:

    Simply put;Britnats played the tactics well last time and we played the tactics poorly.Tactically,this is much better.

  53. Clootie says:

    “…not a Party set up by a controversial person”. Do you mean like Farage? You prefer more established stable leaders like Arlene Foster or Boris Johnson!

    The Rev has presented an excellent idea. It needs support and promotion not negativity. Do you want Annie Wells etc instead?

  54. Andrew Davies says:

    I Remember the last vote, where tommy Sheridan proposed a similar idea, I totally bought into it.
    By diluting the regional votes into more pro-indy, not like now where the unionist have a majority of list seats. One MSP in particular Murdo Fraser has gained year on year.
    So it’ll be SNP 1. Wings 2.

    If we need to vote that is.

    I’m hearing rumours the the snp are pushing through the ref bill after summer recess, so fingers crossed.

  55. Liz g says:

    Ian brice @ 4.47
    If not the Rev …. Then WHO?
    The Greens have had 5+ year’s and haven’t broken through!
    And let me tell ya Ian, every female activist I know (about 60 + at a rough count) are not only active in the Yes movement but are also active in campaigning against the GRA.
    They are angry and won’t ever vote Green again and are also angry with the SNP and Holyrood in general.
    I’ve been the one trying to keep independence as their priority and their votes on track for the SNP,and I’m not even the member.
    These women campaign hard and mainly to other women.
    If independence wasn’t so close I doubt many of them would vote for the SNP.

    It’s been demonstrated that there has been enough of them to make the SNP back off and much of Holyrood stayed quite mute on the subject when they did.
    So that tells me there’s quite a voting block out there finished with the Greens and able to be persuaded to give their vote to another party!
    There is a real danger that when the Yes vote is in these women will then punish the SNP like they are itching to do now….

  56. Josef Ó Luain says:

    Political futures/outcomes don’t come as “certainties” all wrapped-up in neat wee parcels. Who, therefore, can say with anything like certainty what a Wings Party might deliver? I’m, nonetheless 100% behind this initiative.

  57. Clootie says:

    As regards Party name I would like the word Independence loud and clear in the title to emphasise the message.

  58. Bill Hume says:

    Not fair….NOT FAIR???
    Using our heads to ensure a majority of independence MSPs are returned to Holyrood, gaming a system that was designed to ensure the SNP NEVER had a majority in Holyrood, is NOT FAIR???
    Get real people……this is brilliant.

  59. Dr Jim says:

    It’s a Yaay from me!

    I’m a SNP member, most on here already know that and I doubt very much whether officially the SNP will say anything for or against Wings because that’s just not their style

    One thing is sure if Independence supporters take a moment to examine this proposal and understand that it could lead to the removal of the Unionists in Holyrood such as Murdo Fraser, Annie Wells, Richard stupid Leonard, James idiot Kelly, Michelle Ballantyne, that pompous buffoon Patrick Harvie and a whole host of other total dunderheids from Scotland’s parliament to be replaced by folk who want what the rest of us want then don’t try and hold me back because I’ll be cheering this on for that reason alone

    Westminster cheats lies and breaks promises all over the place then fills up our parliament with the liars who said they didn’t, this is a chance to remove them so get on with it Stu, make it happen, politics is for the people, Stu’s a people and he has the right to use the system just as any other person does, except he’ll be using it to make sure we get our country back, after Independence everything politically will change anyway so why not change it now

    Instead of waiting for the SNP to flog themselves to death doing things in the accepted political way which gives all the advantage still to Westminster, so let’s bugger Westminster up by doing it ourselves

    What couldn’t be more desirable than putting one over on the Great British power by outgaming the system that always keeps them in with a shout

    Do you want to hammer the nail in yourself or keep giving shots to the Unionists who’ll keep bending it so it won’t go in

  60. Andrew Brown says:

    Great idea. Go for it. You can count on my vote.

  61. CJ Robertson says:

    I’m delighted at this development, as someone who has been shouting that we (pro-Indy) should be doing this ever since reading Marky Booth’s excellent blog which demystified the Holyrood voting system.
    A Party with a single aim: maximise a pro-Indy presence at Holyrood should do well. Also, because there’s no prospect of holding power by forming Government, this Party doesn’t even have to have a fully-formed prospectus covering all issues.
    We just need to make sure the candidate list is right…

  62. mr thms says:

    I am interested to know what would the outcome be if the Scottish Parliament voted to change the process for electing a List MSP?

    What would the outcome be if the Regional List vote is replaced with a National List vote

  63. Clootie says:

    Final thought. Why don’t we at least plan to target a couple of regions at the next Scottish elections as a minimum. If Farage can do it in weeks we must be able to finance and select candidates for the Scottish elections. I think Glasgow should be one of them.

  64. Ruglonian says:

    *Wings stall info*

    Hey folks,
    The Wings stall will be in attendance at the Aberdeen rally this coming Saturday (17/8).

    As far as we know it just now, following the guidance put out by AUOB, we will be in amongst all the other stalls at “the far side of Castlegate nearest the Salvation Army building”.
    You’ll spot us a mile away though with our awesome banners!

    As you all know we aren’t shy in asking folk to roll up their sleeves – the Friends Of Wings stall is a success because everyone pitches in and makes it so.
    If you’re about before the march then come and help us set up, or get in amongst it once the march is over!
    Mr Ronnie Anderson will be holding court as usual, dishing out free abuse if that’s your thing 😉

    There’s a group of us travelling up from Ayrshire and the all over the Central Belt so we expect to see all you NorthEasters out in force to put on a good show for us!!

    If anyone wants to formally register themselves as a volunteer for Aberdeen, or any upcoming events, then leave a message for me on O/T.
    See you Saturday 🙂

  65. As the Rev said, you can bet the opposition will not fight fair. The Establishment will use anything and I mean anything, to keep control of Scotland.

  66. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – I second that. I would never vote Green now. They are even more deranged over the GRA Self ID issue than the SNP. And if the SNP don’t unequivocally guarantee women’s human rights then I won’t vote for them either.

  67. stonefree says:

    @ Macandroid at 4:05 pm

    That concept is so flawed,SNP rules that you can be a member of another party, You can’t vote for another party,so where does that leave your proposal?
    If they went a head with it regardless,they have a problem IF all who have been drummed out the Brownie, for the reasons specified decide to sue their arses off, and that could/would lead on to other cases related to the action of the members removal

  68. stonefree says:

    Sorry should have been
    SNP rules that you CAN’T be a member of another party,

  69. Al says:

    An interesting idea but it would best if there could be careful polling work done on the run up to the close of nominations to ensure the best chance of having the desired effect. The new party should be prepared to pull its candidates from a region, possibly at short notice, if it looked like it would actually damage pro-indy numbers in particular regions or if it did not look likely to meet the threshold needed for 1 list MSP in that region. The South region in particular looks like it would need care.

    There would also need to be some mechanism for the vetting of candidates since their history is more likely to come under media scrutiny than those of other parties.

    Of course we hope for a Yes vote before the 2021 elections when none of this will be necessary.

  70. Clootie says:

    @Robert Peffers

    You are quite correct that the SNP vote will go down. It could go down by 10s of thousands but it will not make a difference to their seat total. However those same votes which are currently wasted could have the double effect of excluding Unionists and delivering Indy supporting MSPs.

  71. mike cassidy says:

    Curtice doesn’t rate this.

    That tells you its doable – in theory!

  72. J McC says:

    I believe this is a good idea, although perhaps a different party name, given the way the press smear the readers and supporters of this blog.
    I don’t understand why some people worry that the new party would be a single issue party and otherwise would cause problems for the governing of the country. Surely readers of the blog are here because they like to see proper evidence backed arguments from Stu, and nonsense from MSM being methodically taken apart. Anyone elected from a Wings party would surely only vote on matters based on proper evidence and reasoned arguments, not vote based on instructions from Stu. As long as candidates are properly vetted, and are sensible, ordinary Yes voters, this can only help with the good governance of the country – until the aim of independence is achieved, and new elections can take place.

  73. John Jones says:

    I’ve been arguing this for years, just didn’t have a party to vote for. Had to vote SNP x 2, there will be a lot of convincing talk from me to fence sitters if this comes about.
    I still can’t see a probability of any come back from the unionists unless they decide to only put up one list candidate in each area, then it would be wings against yoon. Be really interesting to see if they could agree to amalgamate to put up one representative.

  74. Bill Hume says:

    SNP rules do not state that you can’t vote for another party.
    Nobody can dictate how you vote.

  75. Clootie says:

    @ Stonefree


    How many SNP members currently hold their nose and give their second vote to the Greens. You do not have to be a member to vote for a Party. You obviously cannot stand as a candidate unless you surrender your SNP membership. I know a great many people in the SNP who place Independence above their party membership.

  76. Morag says:

    Back in 2016 I was hugely opposed to the ldea of SNP voters voting Green on the list for two reasons.

    One was that I was concerned that if the SNP vote slipped a little the party would lose out on a constituency seat or two and then fail to recoup these on the list, leading to a lower number of SNP MSPs even if the Greens did pick up the list seat. I don’t see Green MSPs as equivalent to SNP MSPs, or as committed to independence.

    The other was that I disapprove on principle of trying to game the AMS system like that. In that system your list vote is the important one as it signifies which party you want to form the government and controls what the overall balance of power is in the parliament. It seems wrong to vote for a party you don’t want as your government, and it also seems like cheating.

    Taking that second point first, I’m past disapproval. If the system can be gamed to our advantage, go for it. In particular while I always had serious reservations about the Greens and thought that giving them more seats at the expense of SNP seats was a bad idea, this is a different proposition. First, I’m getting disenchanted with the SNP both as regards lack of preparation for another indyref and their proposal to abolish all single-sex provisions in Scotland. I’m confident a Wings party would be sound on both these points. And second, the entire look and feel of this is different. It’s cat among the pigeons but in a good way.

    So that just leaves the practicalities. Would this stratagem actually deliver, or might it lead to the election of a unionist on the list if the indy list vote was split three ways between SNP, Green and Wings? That’s an imponderable, and even opinion polling can only give a rough estimate.

    On principle, if the numbers look as if they might stack up, that is, if it looks as if enough SNP supporters would go along with it to make it viable (as never seemed likely with the Greens, let alone RISE), I’m all for it.

    My own region is South of Scotland, and it’s the one place where a list SNP vote is pretty much guaranteed not to be wasted but actually to contribute to getting an SNP MSP elected, this would be a particularly hard call. I know we needed all the list votes we could scrape up here in 2016 to get two list MSPs to offset the Tories that were getting elected in some constituencies. AND ONE OF THESE LIST MSPs IS JOAN MacALPINE! I’d be pretty bloody gutted if she lost her seat because of this and I think a lot of other people would be too. If she’s high on the SNP list in 2021 then I think I’d have to vote SNP on the list, and I’d question whether Wings might even consider standing aside in this region.

    But as for the other seven, go for it.

  77. Lou Nisbet says:

    “I want to win, but if we win we are going to win fair.”

    -Yes I’m sure Wallace and Bruce thought that too. The blue yellow and red tolies would love the idea too.

  78. John Brown says:

    Sounds very attractive to me in Edinburgh where currently I have no Indy constituency MSP and no Indy List MSP.

    To cap it all I have a LieDem MP.

    Totally disenfranchised after casting all my votes SNP. D’Hont honks!

  79. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 5.22
    I’m hearing that all over the place too Capella.
    And a fair few of these women,who know I hang out on Wings have said to me un prompted that Wings has been brilliant in backing women up in this.
    They’ve noticed and they appreciated it.
    I can’t see how a few expletives would cancel out the support they feel Wings gave to Women when they felt their whole Parliament wasn’t listening to them.
    The British party’s can’t counter it either because they too were all on board with the GNR

  80. Truth says:

    @Effijy 4:04pm

    How about Scottish Rational Party?

  81. Truth says:

    On second thoughts we’ll get called “Rats” or “Scot Rats”.

  82. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Not sure about this – I always thought the list was the top up i.e. the bit that attempts to bring the proportionalty to the FPTP ‘local’ vote”

    It is. What bit of the article contradicts that?

  83. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 17:06,

    It seems that you still don’t understand how the AMS system operates, RP. As Stu shows, the SNP actually did reasonably well in the list vote, but it was all for nought, as winning virtually all the constituencies in almost all regions meant that all those list votes were discounted away to nothing. As Stu also correctly points out, the SNP would have to do preternaturaly well to gain any more list MSPs, an impossible task. (As the system was deliberately fixed to do.)

    The only “fly in the ointment” that I can see is the potential for reverses in the part that almost everyone except (our) James Kelly seems to be casually taking for granted: the constituencies. The strategy only works if the SNP continue to hold on to the vast majority of those, even absent a “Wings” challenge.

    Stu discounts this on the grounds that as things stand the BritNat opposition is on the slide and unable to mount an effective challenge there. But that’s perhaps just a little too facile. The opposition could adopt Stu’s plan in mirror image: ensure that in each constituency only one of the Unionist parties mounts a significant challenge and all the others put up what in effect are dummy candidates (to keep the Electoral Commission happy) and give these no publicity and little expenses. Thereby in effect putting up a single opposing “BT” candidate to attract a combined tactical vote.

    This is not purely theoretical, since it is exactly what was done to some extent in the UKGE of 2017 to gain disproportionate LibLabCon wins, gains which recognisably set the SNP back on its heels for quite some time.

    It’s not at all clear that, were it to come, the SNP could survive such a unified challenge unscathed, and might then need the list vote far more than is being assumed. Unlike STV voting, there is no transfer of support – it’s one fixed voter call for list just as for local. And with the BritNats getting ever more desperate, far more likely they might attempt a do-or-die last stand.

  84. Thepnr says:

    A single Unionist list party standing in place of the Tories/Lab/Lib just doesn’t work. It actually makes them worse off with just one party getting all the Unionists combined votes.

    Using the Revs example of Glasgow and 100% of the SNP list ( voting going to Wings and 100% of the Unionist vote going to a single Unionist party, produces much the same result except this time the Greens will retain their seat and Wings gain 3 seats.

    Much more realistic though is Wings getting say 25% of the SNP list votes. This results in Wings with 2 seats, the Greens 1 and the Unionists 4.

    3 Indy supporting seats instead of 1 and two less Unionists in Holyrood is the result.

    Thr real point I’m trying to make here is that the Unionists cannot improve their position by including a Unionist only list party. In fact if the current Unionist parties also stood alongside a new Unionist list candidate then it would actually dilute their vote, resulting in less seats.

    The fact is in Glasgow they have 6 out of 7 of the seats anyway and this cannot be bettered no matter how you do the sums using Unionist votes only.

  85. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – Stu has been tweeting about the GRA issue for some time. I’ve followed up many Wings links and have followed a great many other sites on my own twitter account.

    Clearly Stu has demonstrated a grasp of the core issues and shown great courage in posting his views. I believe the vitriol poured on Stu from the Greens and from Kezia Dugdale is because of this and not because of any non existent “homophobia”.

    It is quite possible that a mass migration of the women’s vote from the SNP to the Wings Party will happen if the SNP do not change course. Obviously, we can’t migrate to the Greens.

    But it is still not too late. There is no need for the SNP to get embroiled in what is a UK Labour/Conservative party mess. First, they will have to ignore all these lobby groups which have been bending their ears for too long.

  86. geeo says:

    A point worth noting also, the article talks of pro Yes parties winning 93 seats.

    If Holyrood 2016 had been ALL FPTP, then based on the SNP Percentage of the 73 actual FPTP seats won, the SNP would have won 104/129 seats.

    No majority in 2016, but many more FPTP seats than last time (2011) resulted in a massive loss of List seats in 2016.

    So for this to work, SNP would certainly need to dominate the FPTP seats.

    Having said that, if Indyref is not delivered by 2021 due election, its possibly academic, as the SNP vote could crash badly.

    “Vote SNP 2021 for indyref mandate” when you failed to use the last one, is political suicide.

    Which is why all these ideas about a new party is not likely to be needed, looks more like a prodding stick exercise.

    Dont get me wrong, if needed, i would vote wings.

  87. Michael Stuart McCreadie says:

    I wonder how many more Wings readers this wee stooshie has already generated. The more the unionist media covers it the better, and the more likely the idea will take off.

    But (fantasy I know) just imagine if SNP listers became “Wings Party” listers instead, with not a single SNP lister in the lineup for the next Holyrood elections. And they might be persuaded to do it because their chances of election could improve, maybe considerably. Imagine the coverage the unionist media would give it as it clambers frantically to concern-troll the Wings Party chances.

    It’s the kind of high-profile coverage the Indy movement just doesn’t get. Do it.

  88. galamcennalath says:

    It’s a plain and simple message. Aimed at two groups, I think.

    Firstly, If the SNP don’t deliver an IndyRef2 before 2021, RevStu will come along and sort it out for them.

    Secondly, the BritNats want to fight Holyrood 2021. Desperately. This, they have believed, is there chance to prevent an Indy majority and get us all back into our box. RevStu’s plan will scupper that for them well and truly!

    Firstly, I still trust Nicola and hope she will deliver, soon. In which case it all becomes academic. I was dreading things going beyond Holyrood2021 with having had a successful IndyRef2. Now it doesn’t look so bleak.

  89. Andy says:

    I suggested something similar a few years ago and was shot down in flames for it. Various objections were raised such as, the SNP would never go for it (and?), the anti-independence parties would do the same cancelling out the votes, the press would have a field day shooting it down and digging the dirt on every candidate on the list, Westminster would move very quickly to change the rules, and many more. So what would be different to the events of the last couple of years? Properly managed and publicised, the idea is still a good one.

  90. Conan the Librarian says:

    James IV wanted to fight fair at Flodden. He got his army and himself chopped to pieces.

  91. Muscleguy says:

    I dropped in on ScotGoesPop and noticed James Kelly has doubled down on this SNP Fanboi thing the same as last time and again is against actual provable maths which you did and I pointed out to him last election numerous times to ‘SNP SPECIAL, SNP SPECIAL’ as responses from him.

    I doubt a Wings party would garner all the SNP votes in Glasgow but you might still pick up 2 and the Greens will keep theirs so that would be three Yes seats on the List there. The Greens come top in no regions to my knowledge so Wings is unlikely bar a mass realisation of reality amongst the SNP SPECIAL people out there so You might not touch any of the Green seats maximising the Yes vote as is the aim.

    I will probably still continue to try and elect a Green on the Tayside List but I wouldn’t waste a List vote on the SNP.

    What are the SNP going to do to get out of this electoral bind? not stand candidates in winnable constituencies and disenfranchise their voters there? ask people NOT to vote SNP? not likely. So they are stuck winning all or most of the seats in regions and facing huge divisors on the List so SNP List votes will continue to effectively be worth 1/10 of a vote for a Yoon party, the Greens or Wings.

    Another thing I pointed out numerous times to Kelly only to be met with the above and ‘the SNP might not win all the seats’ in the face ALL the polling to the contrary. For a supposed psephologist this was more curious than his denial of mathematical reality amounting just to more Special Pleading.

    I have a science PhD in a highly numerate science, my wife has a degree in pure maths and our youngest is in Bioinformatics, we are a very numerate family so refuse to accept what he puts forward. I’m also not in the SNP so I don’t feel it necessary to pretend all the Suns in the universe shine from them or get all insecure defensive over the idea of other Yes vehicles.

    It was the same with the party’s history of the referendum where the contribution those of us in RIC made was airbrushed out of the picture. Without RIC to canvass in the Estates and closes for them Yes would not have got anywhere near 40% let alone 45%. We even did stuff for Yes Scotland and coordinated our canvassing so we were not in the same areas at the same time. I will never forgive that, it was small minded and ungenerous.

    I think you should be careful about this idea Rev, post Independence you might find yourself with a tiger by the tail and negotiating for coalition govt. Are you up for that?

  92. Cubby says:


    If you think Scotland is currently experiencing democracy then you really are not paying attention.

    One of the key reasons I have all my life been a supporter of Scottish independence is the lack of democracy in Scotland. Your point would be a fair one if we were an independent country and did not have politicians in the Scottish parliament who want to keep us in the Prison called the UK.

    Think again please.

  93. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Perhaps make a formal pact with the SNP before hand and you’ll sell it, no problem.”

    You can’t make pacts like that in Scottish elections, it’s against electoral law. The SNP would never do it anyway, and I’m not sure I would.

  94. Oor Linda says:

    I think your giving them The Fear! ????

  95. robbo says:

    Anyone against this idea is Yoon.

  96. Peter Mirtitsch says:

    The problem with RISE was that it turns out that they weren’t really all that indy oriented and were just jumping on the bandwagon to gain favour, or so they thought. They spent most of their time attacking the SNP and supporters, and pretty much ignored the unionists.

  97. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Quick question: is it public funds that the SNP use to pay Salmond the £500K they owe him for being silly dunderheads (d’oh!)?

    I remember when Elish Angiolini was under a bit of hot scrunity for being accused of using public money to fund a private action against Robert Green – it’d be a shame if this current delivery of justice on poor Mr Salmond’s behalf could be seen as a theatrical way of funding his upcoming touchy-bum case.

  98. Doug says:

    “I want to win, but if we win we are going to win fair.”

    Never drink coffee while reading Wings comments. I nearly choked to death on it when I read that, and I’m still finding drips that snorted out my nose on my desk.

    I don’t want to win fair. I want to win in extra time with Maradona punching the ball into the net and drink their sweet tears of rage and frustration. Bitter? Moi?

    Let the SNP fight a good clean fight. Let the far left wring their hands with angst and bemoan in incivility and division. Our job is to win destroying as many reputations of corrupt unionists and their untouchable financiers as we can in the process.

    State our case. Tell the truth. Then play the man, not the ball. THEY set themselves up for this with the idiots they trundle out unexamined by our precious union’s tame media.

    BTW, Stu, offshore your IT, and have backups for when they take that down too. They’ll see that as a weak point and go for it again.

  99. Muscleguy says:

    BTW I will opine that post Indy when electoral systems come under Holyrood’s purvey it should be changed to no regional Lists, just one big national one like other normal democracies do. You will need a lower limit for seats such as 5%. But the divisors would have to remain.

    Back in New Zealand with many more parties and even the wrinkle of seats reserved for Maori (yes really) voters are more sophisticated with a national list. Politics is still basically Left, Right, Green and Maori. Just different parties along the spectrum. We even have an overtly libertarian party in ACT. The NZ Labour party is actually Centre Left, imagine that!

    You may have heard of the PM, she got her picture projected onto the Burj Kalifa in Dubai and got the Social Media bigwigs in to be told off by the world big boys and girls in Paris. I bet Nicola is full of admiration and a bit jealous.

  100. Richardinho says:

    Technically, this may not split the nationalist vote (assuming the SNP continues to win in the regional seats), but it certainly has the potential to split the nationalist movement because you’ll have two pro-indy parties with a different set of policies which may come into conflict with one another.

    Ultimately, the SNP though does not own the independence movement and it’s probably a bad look for it to suggest that it does. It’s a bit off for them to attack the Tories and Labour for being unionist then complain about a non-unionist party appearing.

    As an SNP member – though with no official capacity – I’d suggest the best reaction from them is silence. This party may help them, it may hinder them, but what would be worst of all would be starting some bitter personalised feud over it.

  101. Cubby says:

    Previously voted SNP/ Greens as my second vote was probably always going to be wasted if I voted SNP/SNP. Had subsequently resigned myself to SNP/SNP as I was not going to vote Greens after the disgraceful OBFA betrayal by the Greens. If SNP voters can be educated as to why this works then brill. I would certainly vote SNP/Wings. Easy for me to say as I am not an SNP member.

    Never had a problem in theory just the practical problems of people understanding. From some of the posts above some people still not fully understanding. Also the Britnat media lies just confuse everyone ( intentional most of the time).

    I would go for this even after a successful Indyref2 vote if Britnat politicians/parties are still to be in existence at the next Holyrood election. I would also keep any manifesto clear and simple.

  102. Jason Smoothpiece says:

    Mmm, interesting stuff….

    Need to very carefully vet any potential candidates only decent types with no baggage..

    Decent types like me!

  103. David says:

    He is flying a Kite to promote the site he wont do it all the Flack is coming from yes circles and press outlets and Stu why did you pick the Times of all papers to give an interview to .

  104. If it ever gets to Plan B time ,count me in!

  105. Thepnr says:

    Here’s an easy way to think of why a Unionist list candidate cannot improve the Unionist result in terms of seats.

    They are very few “wasted votes” from supporters of the Union that a Unionist candidate could make use of in order to win additional seats.

    The regional seats are mainly held by Unionists in the first place which does them no good, they’d just be swapping deckchairs on the Titanic between themselves.

  106. Johnny says:

    Re Cadogan’s post and, in particular, the suggestion that any “Wings Party” or party set up with the same aim having to realise that it was just being “lent” SNP votes.

    That might be true for some (or even the majority) of those Yessers who would consider it.

    However if we get to 2021 and have had no indyref 2 despite repeated pledges that we would have had one (and remember it’s being stated that we will no matter what) then I’d be voting for the “Wings Party” or whatever party it was offering to push things further down the road faster because I quite simply wanted to.

    There’d be nothing “tactical” about it. I consider the constitution to be the defining political issue of the moment, and the party would chime most closely with the urgency I feel regarding it.

    As I feel easy with that, I don’t have to get wrapped up in worrying about “what if enough other people don’t do it?” because I’d be voting based on having been promised something and being unhappy that it had not been delivered.

    In this case, in fact, it would be more like I was “lending” the SNP my vote for the constituency vote.

    I hope very much that there’s no need for it, but I will vote to give the SNP a kick up the arse on this if I need to in 2021.

  107. Older Lady says:

    1. It has been shown that the Holyrood voting system (Additional Member System) is not fit for purpose. It has resulted in dead-beat unelectable members sitting year after year without ever having won a public election. This produces a very poor standard of MSP. At the very least there should be a ban on standing for more than two terms as a list candidate. If the member cannot win a constituency seat they would be obliged to stand down.

    2.However, Independence is an absolute priority now, and everything that can be done, must be done. The Wings proposal is a good one. It makes complete arithmetical sense. Sadly, although I would vote for a Wings list candidate, I fear that the might of the Evil Empire would conspire against the plan.

    3. My idea: Another party is formed, “The SNP List Party”. This would have the blessing of the main SNP, but would be a separate legal entity, registered as a new party with the electoral commission. This SNP List Party would ONLY stand on the lists (and the main SNP would ONLY stand in the constituencies).Therefore the voters would actually get something closer to the desired outcome, as there would be no penalty for getting most or all of the (FPTP) constituency seats.

    4. Ethics/morality? Would my plan be democratic? Yes. Far more democratic that the abomination of Westminster which means that the voters in Scotland NEVER get the political outcome they voted for. For most of my long adult life the benchmark for getting independence was always to get an SNP majority of Westminster MPs. So when we got 56 out of 59 MPs did we get Indy? No. Did anything change? (only for the worse!)

    5. Clarity of message. If we don’t have Indy by 2021, then the message must be clear. If SNP (plus SNP LIST Party) get a combined majority in that election then that is it…VICTORY. The next morning we commence the negotiations and Independence Day is 364 days later.

    ONE item on the manifestos of the TWO parties.
    SNP = Vote SNP for Independance on your constituency ballot
    SNP LIST PARTY = Vote SNP LIST on your regional list ballot

    6. Job done!

  108. JOML says:

    I’m sure Craig Murray would consider standing. Elaine C Smith? Michael Stewart? These 3 cover a broad spectrum and that’s only the immediate names that spring to mind.

  109. Ian R Murray says:

    If the Tories were in the SNPs shoes they would have done this years ago.

  110. Richardinho says:

    What happens if this works really well at the next election and the Wings Party gets lots of list seats and the SNP gets lots of regional seats, but then during the next parliamentary session the support for the SNP falls where it is now needing list seats? Would the Wings Party stand aside?

  111. Linda McFarlane says:


    Pure. Dead. Brilliant.

  112. Artyhetty says:

    Ooo, it’s got the Britnats really feart, so that definitely stands for something! This is good. It has given WOS loads of publicity, it has brought the actual voting system, for Holyrood elections to the attention of people, especaillybtjose who maybe knew to Scotland and may not know much about it all. It is also good, because it means that it’s time for a wake up call, for all of us.

    We are possibly, probably if not careful, sleep walking into a huge, Brexit, British Nationalist far right wing trap. It really is not looking good, and Scotland might well be the first victim of the far right at Westminster, ie via them dismantling Holyrood.

    Certainly the IDEA of having a conversation about just exactly how things might go, in terms of he enforced Brexit and the Britnats’ timescale, and how Scotland needs a plan B, will do no harm, imo.

    Taking a measured view on this at the moment, ruling nothing out, gathering the facts and political nuances (!) being thrown about by the media, is how I see it.

    Lots of work ahead, lots to discuss and consider, soooo, let’s ‘ keep our heads while all about are losing theirs’! I think that was Rudyard Kipling, he did say some OK things.

  113. Artyhetty says:

    Lol! especaillybtjose, was meant to say, especially those! Blimey, btjose eh! .

  114. Hamish100 says:

    The Rev as the new Farage?

    Feeling a bit nauseous!!

    Whose your deputy dog since you reside in Anglettere?

    Arise Sheridan!!! Nope it’s not my suggestion just messin around lol

  115. ahundredthidiot says:

    I don’t care how we win

    So long as we WIN

  116. Fergus Green says:

    Andy says:
    13 August, 2019 at 6:09 pm
    ‘I suggested something similar a few years ago and was shot down in flames for it’.

    Quite a few of us have floated this idea over the past couple of years Andy.

    Good to see Stuart has come around to our way of thinking 🙂

  117. Liz g says:

    Richardinho @ 7.04
    I would imagine that the reorganisation of Scotland’s political scene would have taken shape by then.
    We would not have London controlled or British loyal party’s in Holyrood! They would be only Scottish…
    And if we were sensible and managed to get our Constitution to forbid Holyrood signing us up to any more unions with out an automatic get out clause the threat of, and any campaign for, reunification should be neutered.
    So no one needs to stand aside and the SNP can campaign for all the votes it wants too like in a normal country.
    Not to mention that since people are struggling with the current voting system it needs to change!

  118. ahundredthidiot says:


    I am an SNP member – and it’s easy for me to vote SNP/Wings

    easy peasy – if this is how we win.

  119. Alabaman says:

    Bloody well nailed it Stew, !!.
    Can the S.N.P. institute a situation whereby they have to go to the Scottish people with a Scottish general election ?, hope so can’t wait to use the Rev’s political party.

  120. Fergus Green says:

    Assuming all goes to plan and we win Indyref the second in 2020, I would still want to see a Wings/YES party hoovering up the list votes at the following Holyrood election.

    And I’ll tell you for why.

    The BritNat parties will continue to fight dirty and do everything they can to reverse the democratic Yes vote. They might even roll out Gordo with a fresh vow.

    A thumping pro-Indy majority in 2021 elections will consolidate the YES vote and pull the rug out from under the Unionists.

  121. Alabaman says:

    P.S. In the way he describes.
    (It’s a bugger when one can’t add or amend the original comment)

  122. ahundredthidiot says:

    I would like to see the SNP ‘endorse’ this idea/welcome it…..or even say they think it’s a good idea to help them achieve and independent Scotland

    Unionists would be in meltdown

  123. crazycat says:

    @ Thepnr

    The threat of a single unionist candidate is not in the regional/list vote, but in the constituencies. If they gain there, a larger number of pro-independence list seats is required to compensate. That might not be unachievable, of course, although no-one would know, when standing in the voting booth, what the eventual seat distribution will be. That makes all tactical voting in a mixed system a gamble to some extent.

    @ Ruglonian at 4.06

    In the very first Holyrood election, the list vote was regarded as “first”, and the constituency vote “second”. I don’t remember that it had any official status, but the Greens produced a load of stripy posters exhorting people “First Vote Green”. In keeping with their ethos, they re-used these 4 years later, by which time the perceived order had reversed, and they ended up asking voters to do something impossible, since back then the SGP had at most 1 constituency candidate.

  124. Andy smith says:

    Snp member and you can count on my vote, as for the “fairness” of it..I don’t give a fuck, we’ve been shafted for 300 years by Westminster crooks and their Scots lackeys,the rule book is out the window as far as I’m concerned, it’s win at all costs .

  125. findlay farquaharson says:

    aw man, am gonnae wake up sweatin an screamin in the middle of the night the night

  126. Robert Louis says:

    ANY plan, which will rid us of the odious, and frankly vacuous Murdo Fraser (who is no more than a leech on the public purse), is a good idea.

    But, of course none of this will be required, because the SNP are committed to independence, as their NUMBER 1 priority, and will therefore use their multi-layered, clear democratic mandate for an independence referendum before then.

    I mean, the SNP will do that, won’t they?

  127. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Visited Bella Caledonia yesterday – what an eye opener.

    I was shocked to discover, what a vile Scheming, Duplicitous, Transhomophobic, Teuchter-Hating, Neo-Facsist, Censorship-Monkey and Unionist Plant the Reverend Poopy-Pants really is.

    I thought I would add some of my own thoughts to this melting-pot of inclusive good-will and democratic free-thinking … Unfortunately every syllable is awaiting “MODERATION” and will no doubt continue to wait until hell freezes over or until a Non-binary or Gender-fluid person learns how to shed his penis or grow a new one at will.

  128. Cubby says:


    Glad to hear it. I hope there are a lot more SNP members thinking the same.

  129. Ken500 says:

    Change the voting system. Beyond stupid. One person, one vote. Just ridiculous. Evans illegal voting system. The electorate does not even understand it. No one does.

  130. Liz g says:

    Good Grief
    Did the Rev bully that Bella Caledonia guy at school or something.
    It’s absolutely insane over there.
    What a shower!
    And Pictatrandom the next time you’re over on here you can mibbi explain why you think I take ” a Blairite snpbad “line?
    In your own time!!
    Because no one sure as shit answers any questions over there!
    They just muse motives, devise back handed insults and imagine they know exactly how the world should work.
    Petra should be right at home,but Ledgerwoods a fool.

  131. Ged says:

    This has real logic running right through it. I’m snp all the way but if it means we can starve the unionists of seats I’m all for it. My only concern is Stuart himself. He could have an argument in an empty room and does seem to be a loose cannon. Also, would he work with the snp or just cause a massive stushi? Probably.

    Other than that concern, I would seriously consider voting for a wings candidate.

  132. Ken500 says:

    Alex Salmond got legal expenses. Not compensation yet. The action was funded by fund raising. Evans should pay it.

  133. cynicalHighlander says:

    The List Social Democrats LSD . Way out man. go for it.

  134. Patrick Roden says:

    Something not discussed by the Rev or by others, is that even if we do win our independence before the next Holyrood elections, we will still need an alternative party for people who are feeling bitterly let down by the SNP and their bizarre attitude to science/sex.

    We need an alternative to the SNP, AFTER independence, that does not include the people who have been lying to us from Labour/Tory better together.

  135. manandboy says:

    For me, the Wings backed second Independence Party is exactly what is need to strengthen the Independence cause.

    Objectors and detracters are merely prisoners of their own anxieties.

    As for Stu’s colourful language, Peter Capaldi’s character, Malcolm Tucker in the hit series ‘The Thick of It’ dealt with the language issue years ago. Stu’s speaking style may not be to everyone’s liking, but in the present day, it’s part of the background of everyday discourse.

  136. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Fergus Green says:

    “The BritNat parties will continue to fight dirty and do everything they can to reverse the democratic Yes vote. They might even roll out Gordo with a fresh vow.”

    I don’t doubt it.

    Do you think the Unionists cheer on the English, when they watch films like Braveheart or Outlaw King?

  137. george wood says:

    @Fergus Green & Andy

    The maths were obvious last time, but there was no credible party for the 2nd vote. The Greens pitiful performance has shone that to be true.

    This time round, you will have a much more mainstream choice for the 2nd vote, meaning that you don’t have to choose between hoping it will work with SNP 1&2 and voting for a party which backs sectarian bigots and is enthusiastic about flushing women’s rights down the toilet.

  138. manandboy says:

    Typo, ‘needed’.

  139. Bob Mack says:

    Big idea. Great idea. Do it.

  140. CameronB Brodie says:

    You’ve been reading too many of my posts. 😉

  141. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    Clootie at 5.15

    Exactly. “Independence Coalition” would be accurate and do the job.
    But the SNP would have to be on board with the plan and not stand SNP on the list,though there would be absolutely no reason why SNP members could not be part of the coalition with SSP, Greens, Solidarity and independents. Wouldn’t it be brilliant if Labour members who favour independence were included.
    Would give the 40% of Labour voters who support independence a good route to vote for it.

  142. Thepnr says:


    “The threat of a single unionist candidate is not in the regional/list vote, but in the constituencies.”

    I’m well aware of that but then we’re talking about something totally different, a single Unionist Party in Scotland. Doesn’t seem feasible and the best they could hope for is an unsaid agreement to support a single candidate from one party in each constituency.

    I think there we are getting into the realms of fantasy and the electoral commission might have a word or two to say on this.

    Same goes for an idea of the SNP endorsing a Wings party, just won’t happen as it’s against the rules. If there is going to be polling undertaken on this then I’d hope it’s a larger sample than normal and can be broken down into the regions to give a better idea of realistic numbers in each region.

    At the end of the day it will all come down to the quality of the candidates, the more well known and trusted by the Independence movement and Yes support the better obviously.

  143. Terry callachan says:

    It was the bettertogether lot who first brought in tactical voting the media helped them a lot allowing Ruth to explain the plan day in day out in the newspapers and on BBC radio and tv.
    For that reason I find it rather odd that people are saying it isn’t playing fair to go for Regional seats only with a new pro Independence Party.
    Very odd indeed.

    Furthermore we had the vow which turned out to be lies just a trick by the bettertogether lot.
    Then we had Carmichael lies
    Then we had Boris on the bus lies

    Over and over again the British nationalists lie and cheat with the aid of the BBC and the newspapers and the Westminster parliament

    I say do it
    Go for it
    Plan it
    Advertise it
    And let’s give them a taste of fight back
    If the rules allow it then it’s not cheating it’s a great idea

  144. george wood says:

    @Morag 5.37pm

    I believe the Wings party won’t stand in the South of Scotland region.

    I don’t know how the SNP do their Lists, but, if head office have anything to do with it, Joan McAlpine may find herself shunted down the list.

  145. CameronB Brodie says:

    george wood
    You forgot that senior officials within the Green party appear to believe it possible to stop climate change. For a party built around the idea of sustainability, this suggests a staggering lack of understanding. Climate change can not be stopped, but we can mitigate its worst effects.

    The Greens are political chancers, riding on the back of the public’s fears about ecological disaster. And yes, they appear to be structurally misogynistic.

    I hope a WOS party is not needed, but it would provide a much needed alternative to voting for woke authoritarians.

  146. stonefree says:

    @ Col.Blimp IV 7:31 pm

    “Visited Bella Caledonia yesterday – what an eye opener”
    Saw that. I thought it was the Herald with the dubious Murdoch referencing link, and then it got worse …

  147. Col.Blimp IV says:

    george wood

    Remember Margo MacDonald?

    Victim of Salmondeeni gerrymandering.

  148. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    I’ve seen a couple of mentions in the past 24 hours or so, that a new party should be named “SNP2”.

    I can see the Electoral Commission coming down on that like a ton of pricks.

    My next suggestion? We could paraphrase a long-running ad campaign – a new party could be “Scotland’s Other National Party”…

  149. ElGordo says:

    What happens with 2021 Scottish parliament elections after a 2020 indyref yes result?

    Will 2021 elections be suspended or go ahead?

    If 2021 elections go ahead, this will most likely during a withdrawal negotiating or transition period?

    So in order to avoid any distractions / bumps on the road during this fragile period then either

    – 2021 elections need to be suspended and declared suspended during 2020 indyref


    – we need the new wings indy party to stand in 2021 to ensure a smooth (strong & stable 🙂 withdrawal & transition

  150. crazycat says:

    @ Thepnr

    …a single Unionist Party in Scotland. Doesn’t seem feasible and the best they could hope for is an unsaid agreement to support a single candidate from one party in each constituency

    Sure – but is that fantasy? It would be if it were official (I wonder if the Electoral Commission would say nothing about an independence coalition on the list), but in 2017 they put up paper candidates and/or promised not to campaign. Remember how upset Ian Murray was when his Tory rival put out a leaflet? He moaned that she’d agreed not to.

    I live in South of Scotland, where the SNP is most unlikely to clean up in the constituencies. Therefore, provided they don’t deselect Joan McAlpine, I’d still vote for them with both votes. Elsewhere, I’d vote for a Wings/whatever candidate no bother. So I’m not trying to pour cold water on the idea itself.

    (I should have specified that I was responding to your post at 6.00pm. not the later one at 6.47.)

  151. ElGordo says:

    “Scotland’s Other National Party”

    How about Scotland’s National Alternative Party?

    SNAP 🙂

  152. Lenny Hartley says:

    Brilliant idea, even if we have wn an indy ref2 in the meantime, the SNP under its current leadership need a kick up the arse and im saying that as an SNP member.

  153. AnneMarie D says:

    This is a great idea and gives a boost to all of us who will put independence before party loyalty. I have always voted SNP and have campaigned in several elections but I do not understand the reluctance of some to move beyond party politics. I fully get that unless SNP win elections we are stuffed but I am not in this to win elections as an end in itself. What is the point of 59 MPs out of 59 if we are still ignored.

    Holyrood is the key to all of this and a new independence party is the answer. All of the usual suspects casually throw about the remarks about SNP losing their majority whilst we scream in frustration, knowing that they know it was a miracle in the first place under the voting system.

    The Rev and candidates will be slaughtered by the Yoons and will need to have very thick skins. As much as I respect Nicola and so many of our excellent politicians, there is no doubt that a wake up call is needed. We don’t want you to manage the country. We want you to help us make a new country and for crying out loud turn up at some of the grassroots marches.

    I live in Aberdeen and we run a YES stall most Saturdays and get a good response so I am quietly confident about the march on Saturday. I will certainly look in on the Wings stall.

  154. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 18:00.

    I don’t know if you were responding to my post just prior to yours or not, but you do illustrate my fundamental point anyway: by focussing on the potential advantages of the lists, it is easy to overlook the potential danger from the constituencies.

    It’s very true, as you say, that there is no advantage to the Unionists from combining on the lists, but that’s not the case for the constituencies. Or to be exact, at least all those constituencies where the SNP only won because the Unionist opposition vote was divided 2 or 3 ways. Now, it might even be divided an additional way by the advent of Farage’s mob, but the potential for a Unionist countermeasure still exists.

    The current SNP list vote is wasted except that it’s there as an “insurance policy” if the constituency vote doesn’t do the job. Remember that the SNP actually did better – got an absolute majority even – when it won more MSPs from the lists.

    The question is this: is the SNP’s list backup really still needed, or is it worth losing on a gamble for the hope of better overall prospects?

  155. twathater says:

    Posted this on prev thread but this one is more relevant

    twathater says:
    13 August, 2019 at 5:48 pm

    I went on to Bella late last night ( morning ) to see what all the fuss was about , TBH the comments re Stu and us readers were vile and hate filled , I like others like Petra and Legerwood but even they and other wings posters were joining in the vilification

    Liz G you were very diplomatic but forthright in your comments ( as usual ) but they fell on deaf ears , small’s only intention aided by certain others was to denigrate and demonise Stu no matter what he proposed or thought , Grouse Beater was also pilloried and abused by a rabid bellacose bam and actually had to threaten legal action for defamation .

    I feel that Petra and Legerwood have gone on a strop due to believing that Stu’s proposal threatens the vote share of the SNP without considering the absolute benefits it COULD have for the indy cause , okay there are risks but there are NO guarantees for any election

    I firmly believe it will have great benefits for the indy cause and would ENCOURAGE formation ASAP, also as has been stated many times , when independent we will NEED new political parties who genuinely believe in Scotland and our citizens and who will work tirelessly to that end

    I sincerely hope Stu that you are not just flying a kite to wind up the britnats

  156. yesindyref2 says:

    Scotland’s National Independence Party.

    The Unionists already talk about “snippers”, it’s free advertising. It also draws attention to why it’s standing by direct comparison …

  157. Alasdair MacGregir says:

    If the ’21 Scottish election turns out to be THE big battle – in other words #indyref2 hasn’t been delivered by either a crushing mandate in a snap UK general election or a deal with Corbyn – then the SNP should do everything in its power to ensure a YES majority in that parliament.

    If that means standing down for a ‘Yes List’ in the second vote they should do it. I think they will. So Wings Party will not be needed. Something even better will happen.

  158. mike cassidy says:

    Could the unionist parties counter this with electoral pacts in the constituencies?

    For example

    A single unionist candidate in Dunfermline would have a good chance of ousting the sitting SNP MP

  159. twathater says:

    I post this again as I feel it exemplifies the duplicitous way the D’Hondt system is used against us , it also highlights the POSSIBLE benefits to our cause and appears easier to understand sorry Rev , Thanks Sean for this breakdown

    Sean Swan says:
    12 August, 2019 at 5:56 am

    Hi my name is Sean Swan and I’m Irish. I hold a doctorate in politics from the University of Ulster and currently live in the US. I teach or have taught British Politics at both Gonzaga University and Whitworth University. I mention the fact that I’m a professor of politics only to indicate that I might just know how the AMS electoral system works.

    AMS elections have two parts. First the constituency vote is counted and seats allocated, then the regional (aka ‘list’ or ‘second’) votes are counted. A party’s EFFECTIVE (as in what counts) vote in the regional vote is the number of votes it received divided by the number of seats it won plus one (usually expressed as Votes/Seats+1). If a party won no constituency seats and got 100,000 regional votes, its effective vote is 100,000 divided by the number of seats it already has (zero) plus one = 100,000. If a party won 9 constituency seats and got a regional vote of 100,000, its effective vote is 100,000 divided by the number of seats it won (nine) plus one = 10,000, So success at the constituency level is a handicap at regional level.

    Take an example from the Glasgow region:
    In the 2016 election in the Glasgow region, the SNP took all nine constituency seats. The results for the regional vote were:

    SNP 111,101 – effective vote (111,101/10) = 11,110
    Lab 59,151 – effective vote (59,151/1) = 59,151
    Con 29,533 – effective vote (29,533/1) = 29,533
    Green 23, 398 – effective vote (23,398/1) = 23, 398

    Labour, with the largest effective vote, took the first seat, reducing its effective vote to 59, 151 divided by two = 29, 575. Labour still has the highest effective vote and takes the second seat, reducing its effective vote to 59,151 divided by three = 19,717. This leaves the Conservatives with the largest effective vote at this stage and they take the third seat, reducing their effective vote to 29, 553 divided by two = 14, 766. Labour now has the highest effective vote and takes the fourth seat, reducing their effective vote to 59, 151 divided by four = 14, 788. The Greens now have the highest effective vote and take the fifth seat, reducing their effective vote to 23,398 divided by two = 11,699. The sixth seat goes to Labour, reducing their effective vote to 59,151 divided by five = 11, 830. The final seat goes to the Conservatives on an effective vote of 14, 766.

    Thus the final tally was SNP 0, Labour 4, Conservatives 2 and Greens 1. Despite the SNP having gained 44.8% of the vote, they end up with no seats, while the Greens, on 9,4% of the vote receive 1 seat. The 44.8% of the regional vote that went to the SNP at the regional level in Glasgow did not elect a single MSP because the SNP had won so many Constituency seats. It was, in effect, a wasted vote. Had the 44.8% gone instead to a party that had no constituency seats, call it the Indy List, it would have won 4 regional seats, labour would have won only 2 seats and the Tories only 1.

    A credible ‘list only’ pro-indy party could do very well – especially if, as I half suspect might happen, a heavy weight like Salmond joined.

    A Party does NOT need to stand any candidates at constituency level to take part in the regional election. The idea that a party must compete at both constituency and regional level is a total fallacy.

    The AMS system can be hard for the ordinary voter to understand – so they need to take it on faith from people who DO understand it that giving the ‘second’ (regional) vote to a pro-indy party besides the SNP is likely to lead to more pro-indy MSPs getting elected.

    I see some people have been moaning about the AMS system, but the reality is that, like it or lump it, it is the system you have to work with.

    Sorry for jumping into this debate, but there were a lot of people commenting on here who just don’t understand how the AMS system works. Stuart Campbell’s idea is totally practical.

  160. Doug says:

    george wood says:
    13 August, 2019 at 8:05 pm
    @Morag 5.37pm

    I believe the Wings party won’t stand in the South of Scotland region.

    This makes no sense.
    [a] Both Tories and SNP won four consituency seats, with Labour getting the last one, so Wings List would have beeen able to pick up one of the unionist seats with only 17k votes. Targeting one unionist seat on each list is ambitious from a standing start but doable.

    South of Scotland 2016 List allocation
    SEAT 1: Labour with 28,036 votes (56,072/2)
    SEAT 2: S.N.P. with 24,043 votes (120,217/5)
    SEAT 3: Tories with 20,150 votes (100,753/5)
    SEAT 4: S.N.P. with 20,036 votes (120,217/6)
    SEAT 5: Labour with 18,690 votes (56,072/3)
    SEAT 6: S.N.P. with 17,176 votes (120,217/7)
    SEAT 7: Tories with 16,791 votes (100,753/6)

    [b] not standing because the SNP are doing ok on that list be taken as an example of passive cooperation and coordination. We have to be seen as targeting each list without fear or favour and with absolutely no overlap on the ground of campaigners or cooperation between them. When it starts every SNP list candidate is fair game though that doesn’t mean money has to be spent attacking them.

  161. sassenach says:

    Regarding naming the new party – I would suggest the word ‘National’ does not appear anywhere in it.

    If it did it would immediately get the ‘…ist’ addition.

    I’m sure Nicola often wishes that word had never been put in the SNP name.

  162. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    I’m working on the assumption that there will be a second Independence referendum in 2020, whether by then the terms of Brexit are known or not.

    Up till now I am in absolute agreement with how Nicola Sturgeon has played her cards with so much being out of her control. The simple fact of sticking to her guns has made it more likely that a referendum held now or at some time this side of another Holyrood election will ensure a victory for Yes than having one say in 2018 would have.

    I don’t deny that Yes may have won a referendum in 2018 if she had bowed to pressure to have one, I would argue with anyone though that could assert that the chance of a Yes victory has lessened by not having one then.

    If we haven’t had that referendum by 2021 then everything has changed and reassessments will need to be made. The most important thing is to even discuss this as a possibility.

    Just because a referendum might not happen in 2020 makes it more important to decide what the Independence movement might do next in that event. We all know that this is what the Unionists are praying for. Doing everything they possibly can to stop a referendum before the next Holyrood elections os as they can somehow miraculously win and prevent another taking place.

    That won’t happen if we keep the faith, all tactics should be examined and this is as good as any. As for those that think the system is somehow being “gamed” I’d totally disagree. Pro-Indy supporters would be using the voting system foisted upon us by Westminster to their advantage.

    You absolutely do not need to be a supporter of the SNP in order to support Independence. Even now 40% of those Labour supporters still left intend to vote for Independence so why couldn’t they be persuaded to support a new party that is not the SNP or the Greens and is standing purely on an Independence ticket?

    I think they just might put their regional votes there as well as many SNP supporters would do. There’s no reason for them not to. The potential pickings are larger than just the votes given to SNP for the regional list seats.

  163. Stephen McKenzie says:

    It certainly sounds a plan that should give great benefits!

    Meanwhile I suspect the MSM are sure another SNP Civil War is breaking out.

    Tin hats on and sandwiches round at mine on Sunday afternoon.

  164. johnj says:

    There are Yoon arse rings all over the UK going half a crown-sixpence at this stuff Stu.

    Sorry if the reference is obscure to many. You need to be a certain age.

  165. John Thomson says:

    I would love to say something truly inspiring about this but can only say “why not” all good ideas start small, you have my support on this. Can I preorder T shirt with “wings for hollyrood parliament” size large please.

  166. Doug says:

    You stick with the brand that works. Wings is what the site is known for, and if its not in the list name, its not going to work.

  167. Capella says:

    @ Col blimp IV 7.31 – thanks for that foray into Bella Caledonia. You’ve taken one for the team there. Have the rest of the week off. What a tonic. 🙂

  168. Liz g says:

    Twathater @ 8.59
    Thank you for sayin Twathater,I only went over there to see what the script was with Petra.Then I found the guy saying that he wasn’t getting answer to his question,so I answered him….. I got nil points and a compete lie about a conversation that I was actually in…
    I’ve asked three times for an answer to my question (answering the question seemed to be a thing) but answer there came none 🙂
    I did think that Mibbi I should let them know that “it’s ok to say ye don’t know the answer” but I somehow think that would be pretty damm unappreciated and I’ve better things to do with my time….
    Like be over here on Wings where a question of mine has never gone unanswered a much more elegant and civilised way to conduct a blogg… Don’t Ye think Twathater? 🙂

  169. Daneside says:

    @ george wood 8.05 The SNP List candidates are selected by combined membership across the South of Scotland Region. Joan was top of list. There was a massive Tory campaign to get fluffy’s son Olly in. Joan lost by only 1270 votes.Even to the Tories, Olly has been a disaster. I would have high hopes that Joan would win the constituency.

  170. Dr Jim says:

    I have seen Bella Caledonia, my eyes my eyes!

  171. CameronB Brodie says:

    re. Bella Caledonia. I tried it a few times but thought it poorly informed and a bit of a middle-class woke-fest. It does appears to appeal to lunatic BritNats like Hotdogstand though.

  172. Colin McGinnis says:

    Well done Stu, your examples show the D’hondt system in black and white. You must go ahead with this, choose your candidates well and forget the “ones the SNP,don’t wont”. Choose your own and get the standard as high as possible. Plus, I disagree that if we get Independence before 2021 you wont be needed, I think you will be needed more than ever, firstly to defend the yes vote, then help set up the Country we all want. It might moving back to Scotland though…haha.
    You have my vote.

  173. Sean Swan says:

    Thanks for the compliment, but this stuff is both my profession and a hobby (how sad is that!) I’ve been dabbling in it for years.

  174. Phil says:

    Two points:
    The party name, as suggested a day or so ago
    Also, analyse carefully which regions to avoid! Good solid SNP MSPs from the List must be protected.

  175. Sean Swan says:

    “The party name, as suggested a day or so ago

    Yippy? Are you sure?

  176. SlimJimmy says:

    If you’re gonna do it,please put up a candidate for East Ren.
    We’re stuck with one SNP,the rest are various colours of tory.
    Not even a Green to vote for.
    Probably should’ve done a moonlight years ago, but too late noo.

  177. Dr Jim says:

    A new Independence party is a good thing for everybody, after Independence do we suppose all the Unionist politicians will be prepared to stand for election in Scotland if they have to swear allegiance to Scotlands people and Scotland’s parliament, I mean most of them are liars and might do it but some won’t knowing they’ve had their chips in Scotland so we’ll need more Scottish politicians and not the England party lot we have now who’s allegiance is to the thing we just got rid of

    Just because Unionist politicians talk with Scottish accents doesn’t make them Scottish, allegiance does that whatever accent they’ve got

    Murdo Fraser is as English and Tory as my uncle Horace in Wolverhampton, two entirely different accents, one purpose

  178. Thepnr says:


    The choosing of a name for a new party is one of the most important things it can do of course, look at the state of Change UK who failed to get it right.

    There are many things to consider, for example if by 2021 there hadn’t been a 2nd Indyref we would be expecting one during the term of the next Holyrood parliament.

    So assuming we thought the brand Yes Scotland would be used again in any non party aligned campaign for the next referendum, would having the word Yes in a new party cause a problem for using it in a referendum?

    Of course I’ve no idea about that but Yes Scotland is already a brand with scores of little Yes hubs, groups and cafes the length and breadth of Scotland, I’d be careful of treading on their toes.

  179. Effijy says:

    Help! Can anyone explain if the 500,000 payout for Alex Salmond’s
    Legal costs against the Scottish Government is The Scottish Government
    Or the fake Tory Scottish Government in London?

    Who is the person who initiated this illegal attack attack and wasted such a large sum of money.
    Are they to be charged, sacked, suspended?

    No point in looking at UK Media for an honest explanation.

  180. Capella says:

    Hi Sean – glad you’re back. I was just checking the previous thread and saw that you made another couple of posts which the psephology students on Wings might want to read:

    BTW I agree about STV with only one seat available is more like a run off. This has happened in by-elections in Scotland where the SNP gained the most votes but, through the process of elimination, lost the seat because of all the unionists second votes going to unionists. There are really only two options in Scotland now. Independence or unionism.

  181. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 21:28,

    Can’t say I disagree wth any of that, though I believe that even Nicola’s proposed autumn 2020 is too cautious by far, and risks Brexit normalisation. If we’re going to be able to force the issue at all, as the SNP seem to believe, I would far prefer it to be this coming autumn, though we will very likely have to get another UKGE out of the way first.

    Less-than-ideal as that may be, it may still be the key as to what happens thereafter.

  182. Peter B says:

    This is a no-brainier.

    Setting up a political party might need some effort, I’d be happy to offer some support in the Lanarkshire area.

  183. Artyhetty says:

    re; CameronB Brodie @ 7.56pm

    I think you could be correct, I take it as a compliment. 🙂

    Re; what you say @8.07pm about the Greens and climate change, Let’s hope they put their money where their mouth is and don’t drive around in huge cars or fly about the planet all willy nilly. I’m sure they only wanted to stop the new Forth Road Bridge being built, ( Scotland’s main artery for trade and transport etc) to save the planet. Thing is, had the new bridge not been built by the SNP gov, it would have meant a 50+ mile trip via Kincardine, to cross the Forth, when the old, now defunct bridge became unusable. Sometimes, you have to weigh up the pros and cons. I don’t trust the Greens to do that which is why I don’t vote for them.

    The Greens’ keenness to reverse the SNP’s ‘Offensive Behaviour at football act, was out of sheer spite. They should all go sit in the seats, every match, where those who were protected by the act, are now no longer so. These things have a knock on effect, so when you choose to in effect enable a culture of hatred towards some people, it snowballs. Hell mend ’em.

  184. Andy smith says:

    Had a look at the bella site, if Mike small is meant to be onside of independence, we’re fucked !

  185. Effijy says:

    Anyone keeping a tally on Bojo the Clown’s great British fake off hand outs?

    In such a short time he has proposed £2 Billion for the NHS,
    £2 Billion to the Police. £2 Billion to the Prison Service, £2 Billion for Schools, an increase
    In the £1.5 Billion for the DUP, £300 Million split for N.I, Wales and Scotland
    Money for the London Crossrail overspend, Dam repairs, etc.

    Why did we ever think this was year 11 of the Westminster Austerity plan?

  186. mike cassidy says:

    A bit of light relief.

    How Twitter is helping the Scots language thrive in the 21st century

    And how come Cameron Brodie never links to academic articles with titles like this.

    ‘Cin u get aff my facebook hen?’'Cin_u_get_aff_my_facebook_hen'_Variation_and_Identity_Marking_in_Adolescent_Glaswegian_Girls

  187. Scott says:

    Keep going Stuart. You’re doing a great job.

  188. Sean Swan says:


    Exactly – ‘CUK’ was a disaster of a name. You have to be careful with initials because if people can take the piss they will. What about ‘Indy List’? Short, sharp and to the point…

    @Capella – for me the question is ‘what happens then?’ We should have some sort of plan for the future relationships of the nations in these islands (hopefully one that will even bring our Orange brethren in Ballymena along…). Some people seem to have started to thing a bit about this – even in the Gruaniad.

  189. Ian Mackay says:

    I quite like the name: The Independence Now Party.

    Gives an urgency to the matter.

    And shows that the time for soft-soaping is over.

  190. Hamish100 says:

    The First Minister has got us to 52% with patience.
    Now the SNP are being attacked by those pretendy politicians. There is no party, no organisation, no structure, no money. Brexit looms.
    Wakey wakey

  191. Hamish100 says:

    Britnats are smiling

  192. CameronB Brodie says:

    “There are really only two options in Scotland now. Independence or unionism.”

    The traditional political axis of left and right, are no longer adequate to describe British politics. These have been added to by the new axis of pro and anti EU, or progressive and regressive nationalism(s), if you like.

  193. mike cassidy says:

    Effijy 10.36

    Its the Scottish Government paying out.

    And the inquiry into the dodginess of it all is ‘conveniently’ being held back until after the criminal case.

  194. Heaver says:

    Wings Over Scotland.

    Good name, requires the voter to check it out.

  195. Footsoldier says:

    Hamish100 10:54

    Hear hear!

  196. Footsoldier says:

    Me 11.02pm

    Hamish100, wrong time I meant 10.54pm.

  197. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    twathater @ 20:59,

    Oh, Bella, what can one say? Bitterly consumed with jealousy because their beloved radical-left wokey-dokey alternative was a total bust, and now fearing that a more-grounded venture by Stu might really capture public support and totally show them up. Others darkly muttering that it’s “populist”, even though I can’t think of anyone more big on principle than Stu.

    I can’t say I’m completely convinced about this proposed strategy, but it is interesting to contemplate. So I don’t understand why some are getting in so much of an evident strop about it. Too much self-entitlement all round, methinks.

    Above all, it puts the BritNats on notice that their last-ditch hope of stalling till 2021 – in the expectation they can exploit the deliberate vagaries of AMS to eliminate the proindy majority in Holyrood and thus thwart IR2 – is now in serious jeopardy. Time and tide is not on their side.

  198. Thepnr says:

    If this ever does get off the ground then whatever name is chosen should be as mainstream to the wider Yes movement than Wings on it’s own would be.

    I’d be happy enough to put my list vote for a Wings candidate but I couldn’t say the same for everyone that I know. It could still do well but unlikely to do as well as it might with broader appeal focusing on Independence rather than Wings.

    You’ve got to sell this to the public and no matter how many Wings individual hits are/month it is still a limited audience compared to the entire Independence support.

    Seems like common sense to me and I wouldn’t worry too much about specific policies other than support for Independence, seems to me like the Leave UK mob and the Brexit party did pretty well without any plan or policies.

    Take each as it comes and I’d hope that every candidate elected for a Wings/Independence party would have a free vote on any vote in Holyrood,after all Independence is for the whole of Scotland and not just for a wee bit of it. In other words why shouldn’t a Wings/Independence party seek to represent the whole of the country and that means left, right and centre.

    That would throw a spanner in the works I’m pretty sure 🙂

  199. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    “Above all, it puts the BritNats on notice that their last-ditch hope of stalling till 2021 – in the expectation they can exploit the deliberate vagaries of AMS to eliminate the proindy majority in Holyrood and thus thwart IR2 – is now in serious jeopardy.”

    It very much does do that, wait until that realisation strikes home with the parties, their politicians and their media then watch the meltdown. Their problem is that they couldn’t prevent a Pro-Indy majority in 2021. Game over.

  200. Sarah says:

    I really dislike calling Scotland’s assertion of its rights as an equal co-signatory of the Union, “independence”.

    It should be termed “resiling from” or “dissolving” or “restoration of position before..”.

    Anything but “independence” – which suggests we are not entitled to exist already.

  201. Cubby says:

    Ian Mackay@10.53pm

    I like that suggested name. Good shout. I would remove “The”.

    Independence Now Party

  202. Al-Stuart says:

    This article is a class act and fine example why Stuart Campbell commands respect across the Yes movement and also a sizable tranche of ex-Labour voters, myself included (I will never vote Labour again).

    Stu., thanks for your patience and taking all the cr@p that who flung dung from MSM and Bitter Caledonia have been throwing at you, along with the gross misrepresentation by BBC + Scotsman et al., as they evacuate their bowels at the thought of…

    2021 Intake of: “YES Angels LIST” MSPs…

    Lesley Riddoch MSP
    James Cosmo MSP
    Alex Salmond MSP
    Liz Lockheed MSP
    Craig Murray MSP
    Pat Kane MSP
    Eddie Reader MSP
    Paul Kavanagh MSP
    Chris Cairns MSP
    David Hayman MSP
    Rev Stuart Campbell MSP
    Sir Tom Devine MSP
    Val McDermid MSP
    Angus Roxburh MSP
    Rachel Sermanni MSP

    It is with deep regret that MURDO Fraser ceased to be an MSP in 2021. The long suffering Scottish electorate finally found a way to get rid of this Holyrood expense troughing Klingon. His replacement: the honorable and witty Kevin Bridges MSP said he is delighted to swap jobs with Tory Box Heid.

    Murdo Fraser is now appearing at Mother Goose Panto (having failed the audition for Live At The Appllo).

    The 2021 Holyrood intake consist of…

    59 SNP MSPs
    3 Green MSPs
    16 WoS Angels List MSPs

    Total Pro Indy MSPs…

    78 out of 129

    Therefore as a historic 60.46% of Independence supporting Scottish MSPs have been elected to the Scottish Parliament, there shall be a second referendum on Scottish Independence. No Section 30 order is required.

  203. silverbuick says:

    Names are important right enough. The new president of UKIP is upset that people are calling him ‘dickbrain’. His name is Richard Braine.

  204. CameronB Brodie says:

    mike cassidy
    Give us a break eh, I’m very, very rusty. 🙂

  205. ElGordo says:

    Indeed, Wings Over Scotland is the brand, brands take a long time to establish, and brand recognition is key.

    WOS needs to be incorporated.

    If seeking election, to represent the people, our consumers and their desire for a self determining, modern outward looking, civic society, that we are selling to them, it is important for our consumers to know that we are listening and not just preaching (or on the total windup) and that there is a feedback mechanism, their voice will make the difference, channeled through ours.

    So hows about “WOS Ear”?

    This could be marketed well, driven by our consumer saturation, sensation, satsuma & segmentation analysis and also our physical consumer touchy feely interactions at the ballot box, as we will be able to propose and position our candidates on the ballot paper as:

    Stu WOS Ear
    Wullie Wos Ear
    Zammo WOS Ear


  206. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Thepnr @ 23:22,

    I suggest that the most important consideration for the level of support achievable, besides the underlying strategy, would be the calibre and public profile of the candidates prepared to stand. Paul Kavanagh, for example, who would be a great choice IMO, has already indicated he’s not interested. Mayhap that could change in the light of future circumstances, but it would need to be people already well-known and respected by the public. People like Elaine C. Smith, for example.

    Which reminds me, whatever has happened to SIC? After all the initial excitement, they seem to have totally lost the plot, and right now of all times…

  207. ElGordo says:

    There could then be a special secret triggering phrase for votes in parliament:

    “Friends, Wingers, Countrymen(Phonetic), Lend me your ears”

  208. Tam the Bam. says:

    Al Stuart @ 11-28pm

    Sad to say Al….Paul (Wee Ginger Dug) has already stated he would not stand….pity.

  209. ElGordo says:

    But (seriously) does anyone have the serious answer to what happens to 2021 Scottish Parliament elections after a 2020 indy yes vote?

    This is a crucial next step in the process given the representative voting system (and no way of changing this beforehand or after), this could be a potential point of reversal, if not managed via a mechanism such as the one proposed.

  210. Thepnr says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland

    You’re absolutely right in my opinion. The candidates are the party and without top quality standing such as you’ve mentioned I don’t see much impact being made. It only needs even one for each region but preferably 2 to make a difference.

    Still, we will have to wait and see. It’s good to keep the other side guessing in the meantime though eh 🙂

  211. Tam the Bam. says:

    Incidentally….I scrolled down (been away walking in Aberfoyle today) to read all the comments/posts and am surprised not to find a repos…I did..however…anticipate Rev’s reply to Christopher
    t from Christopher(3-56pm) to The Rev’s reply?….I did ..however..anticipate Rev’s reply to Christopher.Good post and good answer.

  212. Al-Stuart says:

    Thanks Tam,

    I didn’t know that. A pity indeed.

    A bit O/T but relevant as this gentleman may well become a WOS List candidate…

    Alex Salmond paid court costs of £500,000+

    Have mixed feelings. Sad to see a once great partnership frosted by this mess.

  213. Tam the Bam. says:

    Sorry folks…should read:
    Surprised not to find a repost from Christopher (I’m a’ walked oot!)

  214. Sue Varley says:

    I joined the SNP after the referendum – purely because I want independence. I vote and support the SNP purely to help bring on independence. SNP is a means to an end.

    Until recently I was reasonably happy with their performance in government so it was no hardship to vote for them. However after all the GRA stuff, especially involving Alyn Smith, even as a party member I was reluctant to vote SNP in the recent European elections as he topped the SNP list, but I had no other choice. For the first time since the referendum I did not join in delivering the leaflets.

    I voted SNP*2 in the last Holyrood elections even knowing my list vote was likely to be wasted because I would not and will not vote for any of the other parties standing on the list at that time.

    A viable independence party with mainstream policies would certainly get my list vote. I hope we are independent before 2021 but I would vote for a Wings-led party whether or not we are independent, if there is one standing in Highland region.

  215. manandboy says:

    Some of the suggested names for the new Party are mind boggling. To be clear, that’s not a compliment.

  216. Tam the Bam. says:


    I suspect the bulk of the names listed were purely ascribed to their indy leanings….Ill add one …Brian Cox (not the science/muso bloke ..the boy fae Dundeh!)

  217. james s says:


    As long as the constituency vote holds, it is near impossible for a list-only party not to work in securing swathes of list seats. The system is geared to monopolise unionist list seats the more successful the SNP get. Even in the worst case scenario where the SNP lose some constituency seats, the shear weight of new YesScotland or whatever list MSPs will still see us with a majority. The risk, in reality, is very small.

    If the SNP bubble bursts for whatever reason this may actually save our parliament from unionist control and we know the game is over if that happens. Indeed, if nearly all SNP voters gave their second vote to “YesScotland”, it is impossible not to have absolute control.

    As for the party itself, my tuppence-worth:

    1) YesScotland or some other name stating exactly the aim. No mention of Wings.

    2) Sadly Stu is too easy a target as leader and will be crucified. Some soft Yes voters could be put off completely by the inevitable onslought and smearing sadly. So Wee Ginger Dug or somebody like him would have to be the figurehead.

    3) No SNP members or recent members can stand. This will be challenged in court if they do and the EC would naturally cry bullXXXX and rightly so.

    4) I’d avoid stating ANY potentially contentious policies on anything in a manifesto. All it could do is lose potential list voters (gender politics etc). Simply state a supply intention to support ANY pro-indy Govt with the sole aim of producing independence in the short term.

    Ho Hum.


  218. Tam the Bam. says:

    lol…..12-02…not 12-15….getting ahead of masel here!

  219. Tam the Bam. says:

    James S @ 12-15

    As previously stated..Paul Kavanagh has no interest in becoming an MSP.

  220. Tam the Bam. says:

    I am genuinely conflicted on this one…not because I’m an SNP member (I am) but the knowledge that the the usual suspects…MSM/Broadcast Media etc….will go to town on Stu and thereby perhaps endanger our CONSTITUENCY vote….and then maybe not….I genuinely don’t know about this.

  221. Garrion says:

    if it offends the bella clique, im in.

  222. Tam the Bam. says:

    Bella are irrelevant.

  223. Liz g says:

    This would be the only Party on the planet with a couple of hundred campaign manager’s… LOL 🙂
    All this advice and these suggestions are wonderful to see.
    I suppose suppose the thing we should really be askin is…
    What is it that WE can do Rev?

  224. chicmac says:

    As someone very well versed in the use of statistics in the semiconductor industry, from the inception of the Scottish Parliament and the D’Hondt ASM method used, I have pointed out that if SNP support could be persuaded to vote for a different indy party for the regional ballot (list) then a majority of pro indy MSPs in Holyrood could be achieved even with SNP support as low as the mid thirties percentagewise (as it then was). The proviso being that Brit Nat parties did not game the system themselves.

    Back in the day, that would have been the SSP, a tactic I then advocated, until Uncle Rupert put paid to that particular avenue.

    At the last election the logical list beneficiary pro-indy party would have been the Greens. This was met with almost universal opposition here and elsewhere. Luckily, enough people did vote Green so that a workable pro-indy majority was achieved, if they had not and voted SNP instead then the SNP would still have had a majority… of ONE, i.e. a heart attack or one enforced resignation away from the pro indy parties losing control.

    So, in principle, it did and still does make statistical sense.

    I know you can sense a ‘but’ coming.

    So here it is.

    It is, of course, crucial that pro-indy parties keep control of Holyrood since that is the only way that an indyref2, section 30 supported or otherwise, can be enforced. However, that is only an enabling requirement for indyref2.

    Much more crucially for the indy ref 2 result itself is the benefit to be gained from the existence of a secondary legitimate pro-indy party. By legitimate here, I mean a secondary party which has a different but specified domestic policy set (its own manifesto). Like the SSP or the Greens.

    That becomes very important when indyref2 gets under way for two reasons:
    1) It removes the ‘one party Nazi state’ accusation which our MSM fifth columnists would otherwise level at the SNP and report with enthusiasm and relish.

    2) It reassures the really, really important middle ground, those soft Nos and soft Yesses who will decide the outcome, that a post indy Scottish electorate would have genuine choice on domestic policies after independence and that they would not be subject to a one ideology party state ad infinitum.

    Unless a ‘Wings’ party is going to produce a thought through and costed range of domestic policies and publish a manifesto and somehow get it generally known about to the electorate then that very important by-product, when it actually comes to indy ref 2, would be lost.

    But I am in a dilemma myself here.

    As I have pointed out before:

    Goal 1 – Achieving a pro-indy majority in Holyrood.
    A secondary ‘list’ pro-indy party only really helps achieve that when the primary indy party support is in the range of approximately 35% to 65%.

    But for the lower figure that is contingent on all or most SNP supporters deciding to lend their ‘list’ vote to that secondary party.

    Obviously at around 50% support they may not need a secondary list party.

    From 50% to 65% a secondary list party should still increase the total of pro-indy MSPs.

    After 65%ish the Primary party will easily win a majority even if facing unionist pacts and at around 85% support would win all the seats, constituency AND list, on its own anyway.

    The SNP are currently in that area where they might win a majority of seats themselves but might also require secondary pro-indy party seats from the regional ballot.

    The above is contingent on nearly all SNP support voting for the secondary party on the list.

    Analysis I have done suggests that even with SNP support at the 45% to 50% level around 20% of SNP support would have to switch to the secondary party for the list to make it likely that SNP list seats lost would be compensated by more pro-indy party list seats. Below that risks that more SNP list seats would be lost than secondary pro-indy party seats gained, but that is iffy and dependant on constituency quirks. You need something approaching 50% of the SNP constituency support switching to the secondary pro-indy party to make it likely that a significant increase in total pro-indy MSP numbers is achieved.

    My dilemma is that I think that a ‘Wings’ party may well be able to achieve that 20-50% vote switch to ensure a pro-indy MSP majority in 2021 despite MSM antipathy.

    Goal 2 – winning indyref2
    My feeling is that the presence of ‘Wings’ pro-indy MSPs as opposed to Greens or SSP pro indy MSPs would be less appealing to that crucial middle ground.

  225. manandboy says:

    About Brexit and its likely impact on Scotland.

    There is a lesson to be learned from the Titanic disaster. It is that had the passengers known that the ship would founder then they would not have boarded, great though the ship was.

    With Brexit, the evidence of impending disaster for the UK economy, especially with a No Deal, is overwhelming. There is no evidence to the contrary, only empty and meaningless promises of a fantastic new global Britain.

    And yet millions of Leave voters continue to ‘buy into’ Brexit. By doing so, they are setting aside hard evidence, in favour of a dream, a wish, a hope for something better.

    Titanic was full of dreams, wishes and hopes, of a new life in a land of promises. But it wasn’t enough, was it?

    It remains something of a mystery that leaving the European Union means so much to so many, so much in fact that they are willing to throw away economic security in the EU, in exchange for a fantasy offered to them by unscrupulous people with a xenophobic chip on their shoulder about Europeans. Or should that be ‘Johnny Foreigner’.

    And so we drift, and not so slowly, toward the perilous rocks of a No Deal separation, from the most successful trading bloc on the planet, on a raft of lies cooked up by the unlawfully funded Vote Leave organisation, many of whom are now meeting almost daily at No. 10 Downing Street, to plan the No Deal chaos.

    So can all 17.41 million leave voters be brought to their senses and disembark from the modern equivalent of the Titanic.

    Let’s hope so. Lifeboats are not included on the vessel which leaves behind the safe harbours and calm waters of the EU.

  226. manandboy says:

    chicmac says:

    “Goal 2 – winning indyref2
    My feeling is that the presence of ‘Wings’ pro-indy MSPs as opposed to Greens or SSP pro indy MSP’S would be less appealing to that crucial middle ground.

    I can’t honestly think of any basis for that feeling, chicmac, but if there were, then I’m sure whatever adjustments might be deemed appropriate, would be carried out with the necessary sensitivity.

  227. twathater says:

    @ Liz g 9.55pm Liz I think there is more chance of getting the formula to change tin into gold than there is to get a considered sensible answer over on Bella , but now that Petra and Legerwood are there they may educate them


    @ Sean Swan 10.12pm I am happy you made the AMS decipherable , you have helped de mystify and educate voters as to how Stu’s proposal could help independence , also nice to know that a Celtic brother in USA is aware of Scotland’s struggle to free itself from the yoonatic yolk

  228. twathater says:

    @ RJS 11.18pm I understand the vagaries and risks that yourself , thepnr , and others have voiced but let’s be honest there are NO guarantees in any elections , it is basically a throw of the dice and voters interest or disinterest as witnessed in 2017 , but we have to show the people that there is a way alongside the SNP out of the uk mess

    As I previously posted and Dr Jim and others opined , before the vote and after independence we are up against the combined unionist uk vote and the corrupt MSM , we have to be prepared to take risks and utilise every opporchancity we have to GAIN the upper hand , there is no reason that if the proper candidates to represent the Free Scotland Party are selected they could not stand before and after independence , apart from the money

  229. Col.Blimp IV says:

    Sean Swan says:
    12 August, 2019 at 5:56 am

    “The results for the regional vote were:…”

    That’s NUMBERWANG !

  230. Camz says:

    You’re just doing this to get parliamentary privilege, aren’t you? 😀

    That alone would piss off the unionists and media no end. Would I vote for your imaginary party? It would depend on who’s lining up next to you on the band wagon, and whether or not the policies are sensible.

    Indy first.

  231. Rsf says:

    Stu, I’m supportive of splitting the 2 votes. I voted SNP 1, GREEN 2 last time in fife which was instrumental in delivering a pro yes majority through green on the list. I also was the main guy who argued with James Kelly on scotgoespop who sadly is rehashing his tired mantra on this. One of the reasons the green 2nd vote didn’t work all that well is a perception that it’s not yes enough. I think Wings needs to be a single issue yes party that would agitate the population and would in attendance at auob marches and at the forefront of driving an alternative strategy to getting independence other than waiting for Westminster to grant a referendum that is never going to arrive. There is 1 risk though which you didn’t highlight… it’s splitting the vote on the list between greens and wings…I don’t know how we avoid that… private discussions? Harvie gets a clear run in Glasgow and greens in Edinburgh etc and Wings elsewhere? Just my thoughts

  232. Ken500 says:

    Campaign to change the voting system. Corrupt as can be. The electorate does not understand it. No one does. First preference votes go in the bin to let 3rd rate rejects in, More unionist corruption. Evans.

    One person one vote is what it should be. Do something positive with Holyrood powers. Get an out right majority. Then change it. The SNP did it before and can do it again. Very likely as the demographics change. Indy support increases.

  233. Noel Darlow says:

    It is said there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Mr Campbell is lying to you all.

    What is a fair election result? One where the number of seats won is broadly in proportion to the number of votes cast. The D’Hondt system actually does a decent job of this.

    Far from handicapping the SNP, as Mr Campbell has suggested, the system actually HELPED create the current pro-indy majority at Holyrood. Both the SNP and the SGP won more seats per vote than any other party.

    In order:

    SGP 27,266
    SNP 31,960
    CON 33,099
    LAB 39,591
    LD 59,504

    The libdems might have cause to complain. The SNP do not.

    FPTP may produce more decisive results but only at the cost of disenfranchising large chunks of the electorate whose votes are simply “wasted” in a winner-takes-all system.

    D’Hondt is a good system which has delivered a pro-indy majority twice in a row. Why try to “fix” something (in the worst sense of the word..) which is not broken?

    If you want to vote for alt-right dinosaurs who sneer at radical lefties, climate change, or gender rights just skip right past the Wings Party and cast your vote for the Brexit Party instead.

    We don’t need that crap in the independence movement. It will hurt us deeply.

  234. Col.Blimp IV says:


    THe method of selecting list MSP’s is indeed confusing but not necessarily corrupt.

    If the Rev’s and Sean Swan’s descriptions of the mechanics of the system leave you a bit baffled. My ink @3:13 am is intended to illustrate to the lay-man how it all works, in a more easily digestible manner.

  235. I posted the idea that there needs to be the equivalent of a Red Bull and Torro Rosso (two Formula One racing teams which compete yet collaborate too) Indy party set up in Scotland ages ago. I’m delighted to see that Wings is thinking along the same lines.

    The Wings party could be labelled “PNS” and use yellow logos on black backgrounds, anything which makes it clear that it’s a 100% pro-indy sister party to the SNP. But that’s where I see the biggest problem. To succeed fully it really has to have the blessing and tacit support of the SNP. Getting this is going to be the hard part. I’m an SNP member but I feel that the SNP has become too managerial and this is preventing it from being the conviction pro-indy party that it used to be. It’s become a bit too focussed on getting on with the day job. While this is laudable and has made Scotland a better place it’s time they loosened their shackles and reverted to being all about indy. Perhaps the very fact that we’re discussing the creation of a “Torro Rosso”, which is intended to support them if they revert to their core reason for being, will shake them out of the complacency which seems to have gripped parts of the SNP.

    It’s a great idea and I hope it happens. I’ll happily help in any way I can. But before we can do this we’ve got to be ready to fight tooth and nail to preserve Scotland’s Government through the next stages of the right-wing Brexit coup.

  236. Bryan Weir says:

    “The plan to appeal to moderate, mainstream voters …”

    I think that, given your penchant for courting controversy and your well catalogued f*** you” attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you, you have little chance of appealing to “moderate mainstream voters”.

    During the hustings the mainstream media will destroy you with recapped stories about Hillsborough, homophobia, etc. You’ll need a very thick skin but feel free to try, I mean Trump made it to the top.

  237. Gary says:

    What the Labour Party, and I think also yourself in this case, had forgotten in recent years is that ALL votes are tactical votes.

    Voting Labour to keep the Tories out, even though you may have been pro Indy all your life. That worked out well for Labour for decades until the Scottish Parliament started seeing more SNP MSPs elected then voters, who had been sick of Labour for years moved across.

    My point is that there would need to be some kind of change to see ANY other party gaining ground. MANY smaller parties have tried what you are trying ie appealing for the ‘List’ vote. It never worked.

    If there was a seismic change in Scottish politics, like full independence, then the SNP might see their votes evaporate. Perhaps not going back to Labour, perhaps an increase in the Green vote for example.

    At the moment however, the tactical votes that used to go to Labour are going to the SNP. Firstly to keep the Tories out of Holyrood, secondly to keep the “uber unionist” Labour Party out and thirdly, for non tactical reasons that SNP are the party Independence and get stuff done in Scotland.

    Sillars (in this case) is correct. It WOULD split the vote. It would make it harder for SNP to govern and would cause day to day problems for which THEY would be blamed and the whole Indy movement would therefore suffer. ‘Look, they can’t even manage to govern what little powers they have’ etc

    Other than decide to run a vote ‘Catalan Style’ and make a UDI there’s little else that SNP can legally do.

    I understand the frustration the impatience and the strength of feeling but in what way could this possibly lead to a resolution? What would having a small number of MSPs in a Wings Party be able to do to resolve this and move independence forward? With the reputation that Wings has as a blog in the political sphere and in the mainstream media it’s not going to be unionists who vote for Wings. It’s unlikely to be ‘Indy-undecided’ Labour voters either. It would only be those who already vote SNP but, like you, are impatient at their lack of action. Any increase in Wings votes will be a reduction in SNP votes and yes, this CAN result in less list MSPs for SNP.

    This would ONLY work if it persuaded non SNP voting electorate to vote for you, it won’t. It just makes their job harder and the case for independence MORE DIFFICULT to put across. The mainstream media has you pegged as being extreme in your views, you being the public face of an Indy party lets them tar the entire movement with the ‘extremist’ tag when the past four years have seen SNP progressively bring talk of Indy to the mainstream and normalise it. Would Alex Salmond EVER have been invited on TV for a UK-wide programme? No, he wouldn’t. But just yesterday Nicola Sturgeon appeared on Loose Women and spoke to the entire UK and got to quash some of the usual press lies about Indy and Scotland. Indy is now mainstream and the majority are now in favour, per the latest polls. And this at a time when there is no active campaigning for either an election or referendum!

    So, I appeal to you, please put aside this thought of forming a party to fight SNP. Hold back, your core audience is in those who have already realised Scotland’s future and you give THEM the ‘ammunition’ to fight falsehoods and misconceptions in their own communities to gradually change opinion.

    The Brexit Party in England is not a comparator. They have voted for what THEY feel is their ‘independence’ and have protested against their own government and voted for Farage’s party to make a point, the Brexit Party won’t see the same success at the next GE. And it’s for the same reason that a Wings Party won’t succeed at Holyrood either – tactical voting. Brexit Party voters will return to voting Tory to ‘keep Corbyn out of No10’

    So please, for all our sakes don’t go ahead with this, we need you here manning this blog and arming US with the ammunition of truthful information that we can convert into support for Indy!

  238. starlaw says:

    call it the Scottish sheep party, copy SNP policies and vote with them every time. Parties reason for existence is just to take list votes. Replace unionist neeps with Scottish Patriot neeps.

  239. North chiel says:

    “Twathater @0210” “Wings” Free Scotland party sounds like a plan .

  240. Fergus Green says:

    The acronym for Yes Independence Party – YIP – would inevitably generate the moniker ‘yippies’.

    The Youth International Party became the original ‘yippies’ in the late 1960s and is still active half a century later as a counter-culture movement specialising in civil disobedience and creative mischief.

    Perhaps a Scottish Yippie movement could emerge?

  241. Simon Curran says:

    o/t Tim Montgomery (founder of Conservative Home) just been on BBC Five Live talking about Philip Hammond and commenting that the UK leaving 40 year old union shows just how problematic it would be for Scotland to leave a 300 year old union. We’re going to hear that particular line a few times.

  242. Hackalumpoff says:

    See Nana’s links here:

  243. Daneside says:

    At least we are having a rational debate on here, unlike some other places.
    Thanks to Sean for a Layman’s explanation.
    The only regions that the SNP took list seats were South of Scotland 3 seats & Highlands & Islands 1 seat.
    I think we accept that no Wings candidates be put up in South of Scotland. And possibly H&I. The other 6 regions are fair game. I no longer have any sympathy for the Greens after their recent antics. A lot of discussion still to be had,but at least we can raise the anti on getting movement for Indy Ref2. I say that as an SNP member.
    A full breakdown can be found here

  244. Hamish100 says:

    I suppose we could all turn up as indy 2 abc and split the vote.

  245. manandboy says:


    The message is : smartphones are being used by software companies to listen to what you say. The UK Government is bound to catch on, if it has not already done so.


  246. Ian Brotherhood says:

    @Capella –

    Cheers for the name-check on the previous thread. I’m not the only one who has pretty-much stopped commenting because I don’t really have much to add to what I’ve said in the past.

    It just all seems so repetitive. Not ‘boring’ as such, but it feels like the same stuff is happening (or not, depending on your viewpoint) and we’re all too close to it to see what progress is being made.

    This current stushie with Bella, for example. Liz, you made a decent fist of it over there but I suspect you won’t be going back any time soon. It’s always been the same with Bella, since Rev removed the link from the WOS ‘Scottish Politics’ bar. Following the WOS fundraiser, Mike is always a bit tetchy. But this year? Rev unexpectedly chucks a few gallons of turps on the embers by announcing this ‘party’ idea and Mike duly goes tonto. Of all the thousands of articles and editorials published (in print or online, no matter) since 2011, that piece in Bella is as close to pure ad hominem as anyone is ever likely to find but it’s essentially the same gripes Mike has been harbouring for years.

    So far as the Big Idea itself goes, I’m in. The reasoning has been laid out, above and in the thread previous. None of it is carved in stone.

    The party I was in at the time of Indy1 (the SSP) was infiltrated and eventually de-balled by RISE. That happened because Colin Fox and others got all excited by what was happening in Greece and thought they could replicate it here. Their way of achieving this was to take over the existing SPP branch structures by using the undemocratic ‘coalition’ as an excuse to allow RISE members prior access to SSP meetings. They then took over, putting their own people in positions of influence. This is what some folk call ‘entryism’, and it’s a guaranteed means of completely destroying trust between folk who are meant to be working together. RISE was ideologically driven, and it effectively destroyed a party whose prime motivation was ‘action’.

    This suggested move by Rev/WOS is the opposite – it is the SNP which occupies the more ideological position (much to the frustration of many members) and WOS which appears to be more interested in ‘action’ and the very same thing which so enrages Mike Small (i.e. Stuart Campbell’s ‘opinions’) *can* be separated from the work he produces. (For example, where is the WBB tainted by ‘controversial’ takes on GRA, Gaelic or anything else used to attack him?).

    I’m getting myself confused now, but the basic point is this – inability to differentiate between Stu Campbell and Wings as a brand is, more often than not, wilful ignorance. That point has been made repeatedly btl on the current BC hatchet-job but Mike Small cannot and will not accept it. And he never ever will.

    The ideologues did for the SSP. Many of the same characters (and they know full well who they are) will happily throw indy2 under the fuckin bus if they know that Stu Campbell is attached to it.

  247. Daneside says:

    Where is it splitting the vote, Hamish? Outside South & Highlands, the SNP didn’t get any seats, despite winning the majority of votes in each region. Go and look at the link to see the “wasted” SNP list votes.

  248. carjamtic says:


    Been mulling this over since the Rev decided to tickle some frog derrière’s (it seems ,they do so enjoy the temperature of the water) but they don’t enjoy being woken, cue the clutching of the pearls, the thumping of the handbags and synchronised pinkie extensions.

    The reaction to our Johnny Rotten of the vernacular (but also the classical) has exposed exactly who they are….(what we can do is put a lone piper on the summit of every Munro get them to sound off a few laments, that will show them we mean business, without upsetting the neighbours and we can all go back to sleep).

    Thank fuck for WoS, without him we’d still be stuck with the ‘knit one purl one’ bloggers, wee doilies and in the analogue world of *scotchland.

    USA : Homeland
    Germany: Fatherland
    Russia : Motherland
    Scotchland: England

  249. manandboy says:

    Simon Curran @ 14 August, 2019 at 8:25 am

    The Scottish government, or the SNP Party, have a perfect opportunity to prepare the definitive answer to this piece of attempted brainwashing.
    England Leaving the EU after 40 yrs of derived prosperity, is the same as Scotland leaving England after 300 years of colonial exploitation and suppression. I don’t think so.

    Over to the SG/SNP to do the day job on this, and get a statement out to all SNP members and all Indy social media sites. Or is that not part of their remit. ‘Cos it ought to be.

  250. Dr Jim says:

    I think it’s around 51 countries that have become Independent from the UK since WW11 quite successfully so Scotland will manage OK, whereas no countries have left the EU since that Union began and so far it looks like England and its remaining empire believers are not doing so well

    Perhaps it’s England that has a poor attitude of not playing well with others

    They can’t really claim it’s a UK thing because only England’s Tory politicians are and were involved in all this leaving the EU stuff, Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland weren’t and aren’t *allowed* to be included in the *negotiations*

    Sorry decent English folk but I’m afraid it’s your lot that have crapped it up

  251. Mac says:

    Anyone wondering about ‘fairness and ethics’ of this approach need to get real.

    Scotland is under threat from the rebranded ‘Scotland Office’ headed up by Alistair Jack. This is the UK Government arrived inside Scotland to try to destroy the Scottish Parliament and the SNP.

    He has already drawn the battle lines.

    “We need to leave the EU in a way which works for Scotland and the whole of the UK. We can, and will, leave the EU, and in doing so open up new opportunities for Scottish businesses.

    “We need to continue to defend the Union against those who would seek to tear it apart. In 2014, the people of Scotland voted to remain part of a strong United Kingdom. We will stand up for their decision against those who would try to impose unwanted and divisive constitutional change.

    “At the same time, we need to work with the Scottish Government in boosting Scotland’s economy, which continues to lag behind that of the rest of the UK, in large part due to the Scottish Government’s anti-business and high tax ideology.

    The UK Government will continue to invest across Scotland, including through city and growth deals and supporting our oil and gas industry.

    “There are challenges ahead of us, but I am confident that we will meet them successfully, building a path to a more prosperous country.

    I don’t know what this is, but it’s sure as hell not Scotland Centric.

    And he is another one who wants to swamp us with the UNION FLAG… Over the decades they did the same to Northern Ireland.

    The Union Flag should not be in the majority in Scotland… We have a much more representative Saltire.

    We should start removing Union Flags and boycotting all and any products with this toxic brand and the this obvious attempt at subliminal control.

    Previously, I didn’t care about the Union Flag one way or another. Now I hate it with a passion. Westminster and the Tories .. and the belief that Union Flags are the right way to subjugate Scotland.. have turned me this way.

  252. Lukas Scholts says:

    I think this is the only time I’ve found an article on here that depressed me. Please get on with this unequivocally brilliant plan and stop wasting your time trying to explain it — anyone with more than 2 brain cells gets it, you don’t need to justify or explain it any further.

    The electoral system itself is designed to keep us down, the MSM is almost completely committed to keeping us down, Unionist parties have sided with each other, used dark money, lied, scaremongered, and fiddled democracy in every way possible, all to keep us down.

    Anyone on the Indy side that’s queasy about this idea needs their head looked at.

  253. Mac says:

    ‘One Nation’ strategy by the current Tory Cabinet, can be translated as this..

    ‘Get Scotland back under strict political control by any means imaginable. We should stop at nothing to destroy independence and the support for independence’

    Mark my words…

    Scotland are under the biggest threat for centuries. Politically, culturally, economically and as a distinct Nation.

    The enemy are preparing to launch the biggest invasion yet. They have their strategy decided. They have amassed troops, resources, and are planning fierce attacks. Meanwhile Scotland are not ready, and are, as always, on the back foot.

    History has taught us that the battle ground is strategically important. And yet, we will be drawn to fight Westminster on the Battlefield of their choosing. Further, we will be fighting an unscrupulous enemy who are seeking a massacre, a total annihilation of Scotland’s democracy and self-determination. Westminster wants a ‘North Britain’, a Scotland re-subjugated and to force English rule on Scotland.

    Scotland needs to take the fight to a new battle field of our choice. We should not be fighting Westminster at Westminster.

    We need legal challenges around our democratic right to stay in the EU. It doesn’t matter that its the UK that’s the ‘member’ … This is for Lawyers only. There is a higher question around democratic right of a country, whose party already has a mandate.

    Stop asking Westminster for permission to do something that we already have the sovereign and human right to pursue.

    The fact that Westminster can say no to something that Scotland are entitled to, simply highlights the democratic deficit, which is the crux of the matter. The fact that they believe it is fair to drag Scotland out of the EU has to be challenged in the European Court of Justice, before we are dragged out. And before October 31st

    We need to take Scotland’s case to the EUJ today.

  254. manandboy says:

    Bob Cotton in The National comments.

    “Stuart Campbell did not devise this present electoral system for Holyrood. It was the manipulative Donald Dewar that came up with this D’Hondt system and did it to ensure his version of democracy is not wiped out by the will of the people.

    Stuart Campbell now proposes to stand candidates for the list system to ensure the will of Scottish voters is as truly represented as it can be with this flawed electoral system.

    Self important Unionist politicians, high on their party lists, will be most afraid that their precious guaranteed seats may be snatched away by an upstart upsetting the establishment applecart.

    Stuart Campbell is simply proposing to manipulate a manipulative electoral system.”

    Well said, Bob.

    Though I would take issue with your penultimate ‘manipulate’ word. The Rev Stu is surely and merely countering a deliberate attempt by the arch-Unionist, Donald Dewar, to skew the voting system for Holyrood by inserting a clear and malevolent bias against the SNP.
    It was in fact another demonstration of Dewar as the agent in Scotland of the totally corrupted Blue Labour Westminster Unionist Party.

  255. manandboy says:

    Lukas and Mac, both excellent, both exactly the kind of direct, clear and plain speaking we need in the cause of Independence – and indeed everywhere else, as we are all made to wade through the dark and claggy media swamp.

  256. Frank Gillougley says:

    DIY Democracy – just as it should be. Lovin it.

  257. John Walsh says:

    With a new The Independent Party (name) could agree a pact with the SNP and if the SNP supplied some candidates to stand for the Wings party from the SNP list candidates. There would be less fear of the wings party derailing party policy. Which is what I think makes some in the SNP reticent to embrace the idea. ( the other is folk can’t count)

    Surely a win win as SNP voters would be more likely to vote for them. Would Labour or LibDem voters who want Independence but hate the SNP give that pro Independence Party their second vote also.
    We want to “win nice brigade” don’t understand the Unionist agenda is to win at all cost.

    Got them all talking about electoral protocol though .

  258. Capella says:

    Lukas and Mac – well said. Alister “Union” Jack is behaving like a gauleiter and he needs some lessons in democracy. What the proposed new party is about is democratic decision making. For the Dominic Cummings wing of the Tory party we could shorten that to “Let the People Decide” or “Decisions R Us”.

  259. Breeks says:

    Silly question I really should know the answer to, but who is ultimately responsible for the d’Hont system of PR? If we wanted to change it, who makes the decision?

    The problem isn’t PR. It’s essentially a good idea that minority parties do get a chance to have their perspectives heard, but the problem with Holyrood isn’t the PR, but the share or rather ratio between seats won, and seats filled by list MP’S.

    The affect of List seats is designed to promote balance, but not be the critical determining factor in whether a party can win an outright majority or not.

    Surely a successful PR voting system should only begin to see the material influence of List seats “reigning in” a runaway landslide majority. It cannot be right that a handful of list seats are handed the perpetual roll and privilege of King Maker.

    Don’t change the system, but tweak it. Don’t maintain a balance designed to constrain a popular majority, but rather design it as a mechanism to hold in check a barnstorming landslide.

    It seems to me, this requires a simple alteration to the ratio of list seats, which currently enjoy too much influence on the makeup of the chamber.

    Wouldnt this be a more progressive way to improve the system rather that exploit its weaknesses?

  260. Andy Hay says:

    Nobody who votes SNP and supports Scottish Independence will give a flying firk what the Unionist parties and affiliated media think or say.

    This is what needs to be done, plain and simple.

    Divide and conquer.

    You need to be ruthless to win. It’s not bloody tiddlywinks.

  261. Sean Swan says:


    The Scottish gov – since the Scotland Act was amended in 2016 – read it here >

  262. Scozzie says:

    I love this idea of a new Wings party. It’s the one positive thing to potentially bring about a strong pro-indy arithmetic to the Scottish Parliament seats. Yes, it’s a gamble but but at this stage we need to take a gamble.

    Even if a referendum takes place in late 2020 with a presumed YES result(and assuming the SG go ahead with Holyrood elections in 2021 to give space to enact negotiations); if a high number of Wings seats can be achieved in that election it would bolster our hand in the independence negotiations phase with WM.

    As it stands, due to the terrible electoral system we have it’s possible that in 2021 the SNP would have a very narrow majority or no majority thus relying on the Greens. Since they’ve gone even more ‘woke’ than the SNP, who knows if independence is even high on their agenda these days. So I feel we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by a Wings Party hoovering up list seats holding the SNPs feet to the fire on delivering independence.

    I don’t think the name should involve YES – it will be a tool to tarnish the entire movement. Coz let’s face it the MSM will throw all its got to mud-sling and discredit the new party and I’m certain the Rev is well aware of this (and prepared for it). Keeping Wings in the name means peeps know exactly what they’re voting for and the reputation it carries (so-called controversial or not).

    Having said that, candidate selection means they’ll need to be more chaste than nuns! Coz if there’s skeletons in the cupboard they’ll be dug up like a Hallowean zombie fest (again, I’m sure the Rev expects this in spades).

    I’ve said in previous threads that I feel it very possible that the SNP will try to can kick to seek yet another mandate at the 2021 elections. To my mind, Pete Wishart and co don’t drip feed out these suggestions unless they’re testing to see how acceptable this is to the SNPs core vote (and I don’t doubt for a minute that these musings are done without the FM’s full knowledge). So if nothing else, if the Rev’s plans put a rocket up the SNP’s arses then that is no bad thing either.

  263. Sean Swan says:

    @Breeks – PS, I might be wrong on that, reading sections 5 – 8 closely – so don’t quote me on it 😉

  264. Capella says:

    Interesting thread on the theft of the oil revenues:

    Re Scot Gov changing the voting system. I thought this was already a devolved area but assumed that, if the SNP even think about altering the voting system there will be a massive hue and cry about “vote rigging” in the MSM.
    Does anyone listen to the MSM these days?

  265. One_Scot says:

    When Jim Sillars and the Greens are kacking their pants, you know you’re onto a winner. 🙂

  266. Mac says:

    Capella @10:07

    Remember, it’s not the Union Jack flag.

    It is the Union Flag or the Flag of the Union. Let’s all be clear on this.

    It’s a bit like calling ‘Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson’ – Boris. It’s too familiar and cuddly.

    The Flag we are talking about is the Unionist Flag or Union Flag… It’s the controllers flag…. Let that remind us of what it stands for every time we see it on buildings, groceries or paperwork.

  267. kapelmeister says:

    The small nation of Finland currently holds the presidency of the Council of the EU, the upper chamber of the European Parliament.

    The presidency confers agenda setting powers. Imagine what a Scottish presidency could do to put renewable energy issues on the EU agenda.

    Succeeding Finland to the presidency will be Croatia. A country with a smaller population than Scotland.

    Now contrast that with what Scotland has the prospect of if she stays in that other union. The backward looking one. The prospect of all healthy ambitions being thwarted. The certain prospect of the promotion of docility in Scots by the use of that ubiquitous diabol, the union jack.

  268. schrodingers cat says:

    Breeks says:
    14 August, 2019 at 10:10 am
    Silly question I really should know the answer to, but who is ultimately responsible for the d’Hont system of PR? If we wanted to change it, who makes the decision?

    the people, you stick your proposed changes to the electoral system, stick it in a manifesto, if the electorate elect you, then you have a mandate to change it.

    until that happens, we are stuck with it. this will be the system we fight the next holyrood election under.

  269. One_Scot says:

    Here’s the thing I genuinely have not read any details of this story (for a variety of reasons), but I am aware of it, so I cannot really comment on it one way or the other.

    But, I had the weirdest dream last night about the Revs idea of voting for the SNP for the Constituency vote and Wings for the List vote and the conclusion I came to in the dream was that it was right thing to do to maximise the Independence MSPs.

    Now that I am awake I do not know if it is a good idea or bad idea because one, I have not read anything about it, and two, to be honest I don’t really understand the actual voting system that well.

    I know it is a pointless story but it has made me realise that dreams and the brain are mental.

  270. Mac says:

    Boycott the Union Flag products… and tweet every time you avoid a product with ‘our master’s flag on’

    (I already do)

  271. schrodingers cat says:

    Capella says:
    Re Scot Gov changing the voting system. I thought this was already a devolved area but assumed that, if the SNP even think about altering the voting system there will be a massive hue and cry about “vote rigging” in the MSM.
    Does anyone listen to the MSM these days?


    no they dont, but the ssnp already win most constituency seats and the revs idea would bag us a fair few list seats, ergo it favours us. why would we want to change it?

    if the unionists are unhappy, tough, they created the system, let them try and change it

  272. Arthur Thomson says:

    Just when the despicable Brits and their dishonest media were becoming all honest Stu comes up with this.

    I guarantee the Brits will go straight back to their old despicable, dishonest ways if this goes ahead. Watch and see. I’m warning you. I bet you.

  273. Col says:

    Betcha that the system will be changed before 2021. Something along the lines that if you don’t contest the constituencies you can’t contest the list. Betcha.

  274. James Kerins says:

    The SNP need to publicly back a second “list only” party such as Wings. Let the voters know that the SNPs preferred voting is SNP first vote, Wings list vote.
    Only then will the idea make sense.
    And obviously after the election there is nothing to stop wings MPs from officially switching allegiance joining the SNP.
    Think of that as a power move.

  275. SilverDarling says:

    There is a feeling of new life in the Indy movement now thanks to the Rev kicking it up the backside.

    For too long I feel we have been constrained by what we are told is the gradual sensible way to get Indy which goes against the whole premise. No one is going to give it to us – we have to take it ourselves.

    I would urge a word of caution at the suggestions of people being put forward for the WoS party – many of them are media favourites and darlings of the MSM who will run a mile at being associated with WoS and vice versa.

    They may want Indy but they are happy to appear in a sanitised happy clappy version of campaigning not the down and dirty version needed. The Rev and anyone else brave enough to stand will no doubt have a taste of what the Stu has had to endure these past few years.

    They will also need to know their stuff and with the best will in the world some are better than others at that. Good luck to anyone standing!

    My tuppence worth for names : Independence for Scotland Party (ISP) or Scottish Independence Alliance (SIA) or if there are Independents standing – Independents for Independence (II)…

  276. Capella says:

    @ Mac – it was a pun on Alister (union) Jack. He really is Union Jack. But I get your point.

  277. Dan says:

    I see there’s a bit of further difficulty with the organising of this Saturday’s Aberdeen AUOB march.
    The march organisers seems to be having to deal with a lack of consistency in requirements and obligations needing adhered to in different local authority areas.

    The most contentious recommendation is that “the organiser must ensure a Temporary Traffic Regulation Order (TTRO) and full approved Traffic Management company road closure is in place over the route of the procession, for its duration.”

    AUOB has objected to this recommendation as it has not had to carry out such a recommendation at any previous march and the cost of the order and the traffic management scheme – estimated to be £4000 – cannot be met from the group’s funds.

  278. Capella says:

    Far too early to be talking about names I know. But I can’t resist suggesting Scottish Regional Party, since it would only be contesting the Region vote.

  279. call me dave says:

    Radio 5 a wee while back interviewer British Army commander in NI for operation banner started in 1969.
    Where British troops were called in.

    Quite an interview very explicit main objective retaining the ‘Province’ within the UK.

    Stop reunification of Ireland.
    There’s was more but you get the gist!

  280. schrodingers cat says:

    James Kerins says:
    14 August, 2019 at 11:16 am
    The SNP need to publicly back a second “list only” party such as Wings. Let the voters know that the SNPs preferred voting is SNP first vote, Wings list vote.
    Only then will the idea make sense.

    No, they cant, they would fall foul of the electoral commission. the snp should and must retain a separate identity and stand.

    this wont be a problem, the unionists voters are capable of voting tactically for different unionist parties who also need to follow the same rules and conditions. we can too

  281. Al-Stuart says:

    Excellent video summarising Stuart Campbell’s Holyrood Indy-majority 2021 project…

  282. Dr Jim says:

    Our James Kelly says Stu’s plan won’t work but all the Unionist parties and the Greens are screaming their heads off with fear and hatred at the very idea of it

    So they all think it will work obviously or they wouldn’t be so screamy, and Patrick Harvie’s the screamiest so that’s got to be a good thing

    Anyway, it’s a nearly free country so anyone can stand for parliament if they want to. the Brexit party will, and they’ll get some votes too, so why shouldn’t a Wingsy party

  283. Giving Goose says:

    What is the cost in terms of £s for this?
    e.g. what is the cost of putting a candidate up for a list seat?

  284. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    James Kerins at 11.16

    Exactly,James. I make this point strongly in my letter in the National today. Conversation with the SNP on this is essential and the proposal can only work constructively if the SNP does not stand on the list.

    It is an excellent proposal with the complicated details requiring to be worked out from now – if we don’t get to independence first.

    I can see no reason why independence supporting members of the Labour Party (remember “Labour for Independence”)wouldn’t be welcome in it with SNP individual members,even Tory independence supporters and independents. That was what “YES” was in 2014.

    What does annoy me is the constant squealing against the SNP from supposed supporters. We sit at the highest ever point in our support with support for independence at its highest ever point and our opponents slipping into oblivion and someohow the SNP is not doing doing stuff right.

    Whether we like it or not the SNP is in governemt,in very dificult austerity circumstances, and has to spend much of its effort governing as well as it can. This means it has to deal with hundreds of issues daily and weekly -not just independence. It will not win independence by governing as well as is possible,it will never get credit in the media but it has to because if it governs badly it will lose independence.

    Independence is a bigger issue than the SNP. Which is why it put together(and funded) the YES campaign last time.

  285. Al-Stuart says:

    Man and boy,

    Thanks for the post where you said you weren’t being complimentary.

    I didn’t take it as a compliment.

    The list of random MSP suggestions was in the spirit of Stuart Campbell’s thread. Just a thought. Thinking out loud. Positing some ideas.

    Though your response illustrates a closed mindset that is a problem we all have to consider.

    Will imposingl our own personal preferences, ancient Scottish Clan feud style on who may or may not be “allowed” to support independence be a price worth paying for not having IndyRef2 or losing IndyRef2?

    Manandboy I simply selected some random names of YES supporters. I hope you can reflect more positively on the bigger question: is it right to risk or lose IndyRef2 because we don’t like someone.

    If that be the case, Stuart Campbell, Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon all have problems as they are genuine Marmite personalities and many voters would either go No or not vote if Independence dependeds solely upon who is, or is not within the wider Independence movement.

  286. Golfnut says:

    Apologies if someone has already posted this.
    Labour registered as a separate party, Scottish Labour Party, incorporated and registered 19th July.

    Now either they are preparing( have prepared because I think the stooshie with John McDonnell was contrived bollocks)to fight the GE on a separate manifesto, or they are preparing for the 2021 Holyrood elections.

  287. Giving Goose says:

    One of the aspects about present day politics across all parties is the “intellectual snobbery” that seems to pervade discourse and the application of politics.
    There are far too many professional careerists and politically correct, single issue, band wagon jumpers occupying parliamentary seats.

    If a Wings party was able to break the mould then that would be a positive outcome.

  288. Dan says:

    @Capella & Mac

    Re. Flags. I’ve recently noticed products in shops with both the (Shitey)Union and Saltire flags on the packaging.

    Alternative descriptors for a certain flag are: The Unequal Union Flag, and The Union Jackass Flag. Using such terms can be a conversation starter to make a point.

    I’ve still not seen an English Flag on produce yet, which I generally wouldn’t have an issue buying if the product couldn’t be sourced or produced more locally.
    Though I guess if out the EU the Protected Geographic Indicator status will go and shops could have “Cheshire cheese”, “Melton Mobray Pork pies”, and “Kendall Mint cake” which were made in the USA.
    Our southern neighbours are missing a trick as they could evolve a bit and be promoting or bragging about the good stuff they make, rather than still banging on about a certain football game in 1966…

  289. Jack Murphy says:

    Capella said at 8:12 am:
    ” Enjoy!

    An excellent article and may I say The National has added an Addendum,saying:

    ” The Paywall has been lifted from this article. You can support The National with a subscription – and you can find all the information on those by clicking here.

    The support of subscribers has already enabled us to launch a monthly supplement targeted at winning over No voters, and allowed us to hire another video journalist so we can put out more viral content in support of Yes.

    Our next milestone in our 10,000 Steps campaign, when we hit 8000 subscribers, will see us launch a Unionist fact-checking service. “

  290. Clapper57 says:

    Re Mac’s above points on the Union Jack flag.

    Imposing it’s greater presence in Scotland does NOT inspire unity or a greater sense of so called Unionism or ‘britishness’ among Scots especially when it has been so widely publicised that this is the Tory solution/plan to suppress Scottish ‘nationalism’ in what they deem as the ‘wrong kind’ of nationalism.

    The fact they they, the Tories, do not understand this is why we conclude that they really do not care if we see through their misjudged efforts to , not unite, but force their unionist presence upon us.

    The problem with the Union Jack in Scotland is that it is a false flag that is flown by those who seek to remind Scots that they are NOT actually part of a faux ‘Britain’ but very much a minor part of a WM controlled England.

    Brexit has confirmed this as a fact for those Scots who formerly believed they were ‘British’ and who saw the Union Jack as representative of this. However if anyone IS still in denial of this then they are either willfully deluding themselves or perhaps they should start being honest and admit…..they know nothing.

    To see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil in relation to the survival of the Union is an argument that was lost even before it begun….and the Union Jack is now merely a symbol of that lost argument.

  291. Al-Stuart says:


    A big thank you for that link…

    I actually buy the hard copy of the National every day out of principle, but don’t always get time to read it – so might have missed that feature.

    That quality of writing is exquisite, witty and very enjoyable. Am getting the scissors out as that is going in the grandkids’ scrapbook 🙂

  292. Capella says:

    @ Jack Murphy @ Al-Stuart – yes it fair cheers you up. Kevin McKenna tends to sit on the fence but he’s jumped down and waded right in for this turn of events. Exquisite, sharp and witty writing.

    I subscribe to The National but don’t always have time to read it (being on WoS so much). So it’s great when a good article can be circulated.

  293. Richardinho says:

    I don’t have a problem with the media dredging up whatever negative stories they can on the Rev. Stu. Unless there’s something he’s really not telling us I think any publicity is good publicity and as many people will agree with his views as not. (Thinking the transgender issue, Hillsborough etc.). What would be absolutely fatal is if the SNP are pressurised into joining all the fabricated denouncements. Sometimes I get the feeling someone should teach the words ‘f**k off’ to them. Quite surprising how versatile they can be at times!

  294. Capella says:

    Should have added – The National appears to have obtained a copy of a unionist attack ad. Surely a spoof, but if not then a disgrace:

  295. Robert Peffers says:

    @John Walsh says:14 August, 2019 at 9:58 am:

    ” … With a new The Independent Party (name) could agree a pact with the SNP and if the SNP supplied some candidates to stand for the Wings party from the SNP list candidates.”

    Sorry, John, it isn’t going to happen. First of all it would be illegal by Westminster rules for the SNP to stand candidates for another political party. It would also be against SNP rules.

    Furthermore the SNP, and SNP voters, are not going to be over keen on the idea and I’ll tell you why. It took only a few seconds from Stu’s article being printed on Wings for the Wings very own SNP BAAAAD! faction to start commenting about how they imagine the SNP are sitting on their collective arses, far too comfortable with their incomes and privileges, instead of storming out of Westminster and declaring Scotland independent or other such claptrap.

    What’s more the BAAD BAAAD, SNP were not doing anything for independence and they didn’t have a plan A never mind a plan B.

    Thing is that whatever it is the SNP/SG/FM are doing they must be doing something right for are not the opinion polls inexorably moving towards independence? Are not opinion polls showing that Scots are moving more towards remaining in Europe and out of the UK?

    How come that to be so if whatever it is the SNP are doing, or not doing, is seeing the electorate move towards independence while the Westminster Establishment is in full attack mode against both independence for Scotland, Wales and N.I. and are set upon a no deal BR UKExit?

    Say what you like but I’ve sought Scottish independence most of my life, and that’s the best part of 70 odd years, and there has never been a time in that 70 odd years when the movement towards independence has moved so fast.

    Yet, if the Wings own SNP Baad faction represent the same percentages as the rest of the Scottish electorate the SNP are going to lose seats, not win more of them. For heaven’s sake there has been long time Wings commenters who have commented that they have resigned from the SNP either claiming the SNP were not all in favour of legal self appointed gender.

    Yet the truth of that matter is, like most other subjects, the SNP has a broad spectrum of opinions but they are a very democratic party and usually the majority reach the right conclusion. To date there has been no conclusion on that particular topic and the topic has been called in for further consideration.

    What is how really democratic parties work, you get factions fighting for their faction’s interests and obviously those fighting for it are passionate about it but it takes others a longer time to even understand what all the passion is about.

    So there is often a period of time before other conclude the whole thing is not such a good idea after all and, in the case of the SNP, only national conference and the wishes of the majority in the nation’s local branches settles the natter.

    So the clear conclusion has to be that nationwide the cause of independence continues to grow and that means more are coming on board than are leaving on the longboats.

    Stu’s idea is not intended to split the SNP but to strengthen it but reading, listening and viewing the MSM you wouldn’t think so.

  296. SilverDarling says:

    @ Ricardhino 12.37 pm

    I agree.

    I would be profoundly disappointed in the SNP if they join in any attacks but unfortunately within their ranks there are a few really unsavoury Youth party members and graduates who will be unable to stop themselves and who have already been vocal in their condemnation.

    An official position is entirely different however.

    I would hope they do not go negative on other Pro Indy parties. I don’t remember any overt condemnation of the Greens by the SNP in the recent elections but I may be wrong.

  297. RobertTheTruth says:

    @Robert Peffers 12.43 pm

    Mr Peffers, recently you have shown an astonishing ignorance of the voting system in Holyrood.

    You continue to show complete ignorance of the GRA issue and the the significance of the lack of consultation that has tarnished the SNP in the eyes of many women and women’s groups.

    You should stick to history but even in that your opnions are open to debate about which you become angry and defensive.

    You are SNP first, Scotland second and that is a position that is now indefensible.

  298. Confused says:

    The Kevin McKenna article is pretty good – well worth a read.

    I’ve slagged him off a bit in a the past, so fair-play to the dude.

    Some nice insults been flying around lately. It’s becoming a lost art and we should appreciate it more. We all like a good chuckle – to think – that’s a good one, must remember that.

    Kevin McK –
    “greens … are a boutique party serving as a vehicle for the prejudices of Patrick Harvie.”

    “a little-read blog” – the REV, in the article

  299. Big Jock says:

    Wow great publicity Stuart. Yoons be crazy!

    Maybe this will push the SNP into getting their collective arses off their seats!

  300. Cubby says:


    Your are the UK first full stop and that is a position that makes you a despicable Britnat.

    TheTruth that’s a joke.

  301. Derick fae Yell says:

    The Labour Party and the Co-operative Party suggested doing this very thing, with Labour standing in the constituencies and the Co-op (it’s formally a separate party) on the list.

    They don’t do it, because they would effectively be operating as a single electoral unit. My understanding is that the Electoral Commission gave the idea short shrift, correctly

    Same applies here

  302. Lenny Hartley says:

    Auld Bob as an SNP member I can assure you that I am very keen on a Wings Party sitting on the list vote. I am only a member and voter of the SNP to get Independence, So the Wings party , which remember , will only be formed if the SNP dont secure a referendum by the Elections by 2021, will probably be needed to secure an Indy majority in the next Scottish Parliament,
    if we dont have a referendum before those elections A hell of a lot of people are going to be pissed off with Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP. If in the meantime it keeps the SNP honest, then that is a good thing, they are not an anti brexit party, they are a pro Independence Party or should be.
    As an aside loved Kevin Mckenna’s article and as the National have lifted the paywall so that folk can read it without a subscription then the National also supports the Wos Party. Kevin’s analysis of the Greens match my thoughts exactly.

  303. Lenny Hartley says:

    Derrick frae yell, no it doesnt there is no link between Wos and the SNP, there is strong an electoral pact between the Co-op party and Labour, there will be none between WOS and the SNP

  304. desimond says:

    Seeing a lot of SNP folk saying “hmmm” and they seem to be fearing it would take votes away.

    Isnt the whole point the fact that SNP don’t have any regional votes as it is? SO as far as this SNP member of long standing is concerned, its a win win.

    One question I did wonder though was “Would any Wings officials actually need to take their place in Parliament?”

    Could they just do a Sinn Feinn and abstain allowing the majority of SNP constituency members to make the decisions and win each vote at Holyrood?

  305. Bill McLean says:

    Mac at 1056 – unfortunately, for family reasons, I have had to leave the Dunfermline area and move to Birmingham recently. I’m utterly astonished at the amount of “union flaggery” i’m seeing down here in all supermarkets – worst of all,oddly is Aldi! Will read “Wings” and other pro indy sites daily till I die and both my wife and I have kept our membership of the SNP as HQ members. Have many, and growing, reservations about the performance of the SNP in the independence arena but they have got us this far….. Good luck to all and missing home!

  306. desimond says:


    May I expand on your Independents for Independence (II) and suggest:

    Independents Interested In Independence

    They could be known as “The Frankies”..

    “Aye Aye Aye Aye……”

  307. manandboy says:


    In every other country, Independence is fiercely defended and protected as an absolute value and an indisputable right. But this clearly is not the case in Scotland.
    Instead, Scotland is a ‘dependent’ country, as if it had no lungs, or had no beating heart and therefore had to be permanently connected up to the British life-support machine. This has been the Big Lie from England, from the very start – without us, you won’t make it,’cos you’re too wee, too poor and far too stupid. And to this day, that lie continues to be believed my many in Scotland, and from all walks of life.

    And this is how a country becomes ‘dependent’. Through believing the lies of an overbearing, grasping neighbour. As England is to Scotland.

    There are many other lies which England has told Scotland, and which, tragically, Scotland has believed, because that is how abusive ‘partners’ seek to exercise control over their ‘other half’.

    How much longer, Scotland. How much longer?

  308. Ghillie says:

    Capella @ 12.38 pm

    It’s a shocker 🙂

    Ad for National subscription, but you knew that =)

    Good trolling by the National.

  309. desimond says:

    One aspect of this that might work out for the best is perhaps a change in school education.

    Maybe Modern Studies ( if its still a thing?) will actually teach pupils how the complicated and confusing voting systems in Scotland currently work.

    The kids then go home and discuss with parents who in turn get educated and a clearer picture is available rather than just blind party loyalty which is detrimental at present.

    So who sets the curriculum these days?

  310. Fireproofjim says:

    New Independence Party fighting list seats only is an idea which has few downsides.
    Where there are existing SNP list members the new party should not stand.
    Finally ALL list members should be limited to two terms. This would get rid of worthless seat warmers and useless nonentities who are only there because they have been long time party hacks.
    I give you Murdo Fraser, a Tory, who has never been elected by anyone but has had twenty years of payment by the taxpayer and appears to be immovable.

  311. call me dave says:

    @Bill McLean

    All the best to you and yours darn Sarf!

    Keep posting and telling us the news down there.

  312. Capella says:

    @ Ghillie – hope it reels in a few. 🙂

  313. manandboy says:

    While open to correction, it is self-evident that without the SNP, the cause of Scotland’s independence would be nowhere near where it is today. It is likewise true to say that ‘the SNP must be doing something right’. And very right at that.

    Yet there is another element in the extent of the support for Independence at the ballot box and in the numbers of party members. I refer to the virtually spontaneous ‘Independence Awakening’ of so many Scots in the period just prior to the Referendum of September 2014, an awakening which the SNP is not responsible for, and which I would suggest sustains very many Yes voters, and leads them to vote SNP not because they are SNP supporters, but because they are Independence supporters.
    Take away the SNP, and Independence supporters would still vote for Independence. This would also be the case, more or less, even if the SNP performed less well as a Scottish Government.

    Do we Scots know how to start an argument among ourselves or what?

    Those Independence supporters, merit an Independence Party separate and distinct from the Flagship SNP.

  314. Thepnr says:


    Manandboy in his post was not referring to anything you had posted. He was talking of suggested names for the Party not the candidates.

    “Some of the suggested names for the new Party are mind boggling. To be clear, that’s not a compliment.”

    If you read back a bit you’ll see why he posted what he did.

  315. Noah Fence says:

    A regular follower, but stepping in from the cold for the first time.

    The current party system is broken and corrupt. Why not create an umbrella group of Independents for Independence? An alliance with no hierarchy, no whips, and possibly a rotating leadership, working for their own region’s interests.

    As individuals they would not be bound by party lines, or subject to lobbying, with no detailed manifesto as such, simply commitment to a fair, just, open and above all, NORMAL and independent country, voting according to conscience.

    Too revolutionary? Too unicornist? Ah well, back to lurking.

  316. Golfnut says:

    So further to my last post. Scot Labour Party, registered at Companies House 8th August 2019. Registered as a limited company, not a Political Party, which kind of mirrors the Brexit Party. Leonard family look as if they might be involved. Stated as ‘ active ‘

  317. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Fireproofjim @ 13:57:

    Finally ALL list members should be limited to two terms.

    Frankly, this is merely bodging a bodge. Two-votes AMS is an utter abomination that no-one properly understands (because it’s perverse) and should be reformed or replaced. Ideally totally replaced with STV like the council elections, so all voting is the same. The Irish use that and seem to manage just fine.

  318. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Derick fae Yell @ 13:20,

    The Co-Op Party pretends a separate identity but in effect is nothing more than a Labour front. (An English equivalent of their North British branch office, you might say.) I don’t recall a single candidate at any recent UK election that stood for the Co-Op alone, they are always identified as “Labour and Co-Op”.

    Their support for mutuality also seems to have shrivelled away to nothing. IIRC El Gordo was “Labour & Co-Op” (as was eventual successor Ed Balls) and yet in office he grandly presided over the biggest cull ever of the building societies. (Likely the biggest there ever will be, since there are hardly any such mutuals left.)

    But then Co-Op, Labour, El Gordo and hypocrisy are hardly strangers from each other.

  319. Bobp says:

    Golfnut 11.57am. Re,labour registering as a separate Scottish party on the 19th july. Even if they put Scottish independence on their manifesto, I wouldn’t vote for them, I wouldn’t trust them as far as I could throw them. Maybe 10/15 yrs after independence.

  320. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “The current party system is broken and corrupt. Why not create an umbrella group of Independents for Independence? An alliance with no hierarchy, no whips, and possibly a rotating leadership, working for their own region’s interests.”

    You basically just described RISE.

  321. Bobp says:

    Golfnut, sorry never seen your 2.30pm post.

  322. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Golfnut @ 11:57,

    Interesting indeed. Maybe just trying to pre-empt someone else using the name with indy support in mind, as Sillars, Neil & Co. once did back when, alas without consequence at the time.

    Or am I just being too cynical…?

  323. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “It is said there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Mr Campbell is lying to you all.

    What is a fair election result? One where the number of seats won is broadly in proportion to the number of votes cast. The D’Hondt system actually does a decent job of this.”

    Um, it says that in the article. At no point do I claim or suggest that the current system is in any way unfair.

    “If you want to vote for alt-right dinosaurs who sneer at radical lefties, climate change, or gender rights just skip right past the Wings Party and cast your vote for the Brexit Party instead.”

    “Alt-right” LOL. But hey, good luck voting Brexit Party for Scottish independence.

  324. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “There is 1 risk though which you didn’t highlight… it’s splitting the vote on the list between greens and wings…I don’t know how we avoid that… private discussions? Harvie gets a clear run in Glasgow and greens in Edinburgh etc and Wings elsewhere? Just my thoughts”

    I’m loving the thought of Patrick Harvie doing a deal with me 😀 😀 😀

  325. CameronB Brodie says:

    Government needs to be pragmatic, if policy is to remain relevant and avoid totalitarianism. This principle of governance often undoes narrow minded, lightweight political thinkers and ideologues, such as Hotdogstand and Small. An approach to policy that is not pragmatic is bad, mk.

    The full-English Brexit appears pragmatic but lacks any ethical principle. As such, the full-English Brexit is an example of clown-shoes fascism.

    Neo-pragmatism: an ethical anticipatory system

  326. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “3. My idea: Another party is formed, “The SNP List Party”. This would have the blessing of the main SNP, but would be a separate legal entity, registered as a new party with the electoral commission. This SNP List Party would ONLY stand on the lists (and the main SNP would ONLY stand in the constituencies).Therefore the voters would actually get something closer to the desired outcome, as there would be no penalty for getting most or all of the (FPTP) constituency seats.”

    That would be illegal under electoral law.

  327. Dorothy Devine says:

    Independent Wings.

  328. Dorothy Devine says:

    or Wings Independent

  329. CameronB Brodie says:

    And sorry if I appear a bit of a broken record, but here another way of knowing the proposed changes to the GRA are intensely bad, mk.

    N.B. All action has moral implications.

    Pragmatic Neuroethics: Lived Experiences as a Source of Moral Knowledge


    In this article, we present a pragmatic approach to neuroethics, referring back to John Dewey and his articulation of the “common good” and its discovery through systematic methods. Pragmatic neuroethics bridges philosophy and social sciences and, at a very basic level, considers that ethics is not dissociable from lived experiences and everyday moral choices.

    We reflect on the integration between empirical methods and normative questions, using as our platform recent bioethical and neuropsychological research into moral cognition, action, and experience. Finally, we present the protocol of a study concerning teenagers’ morality in everyday life, discussing our epistemological choices as an example of a pragmatic approach in empirical ethics. We hope that this article conveys that even though the scope of neuroethics is broad, it is important not to move too far from the real life encounters that give rise to moral questions in the first place.

    Keywords: neuroethics, morality, young people, pragmatism, moral behavior

  330. Mac says:

    SNP Slogan at their next conference should be ‘One of Four Nations’

  331. manandboy says:

    “That’s not what I want, it’s not what we’re aiming for but we need our European friends to compromise.”

    What PM Johnson meant to say was, ‘but we need our Northern Ireland friends in the DUP to compromise’. He went on to say that he had telephoned Arlene Foster, but that the conversation was interrupted by a voice in the background saying what sounded like ‘No Surrender’.

    I must ask Dominic Cummings what that means said the PM.

  332. Mac says:

    @Bill McLean

    Don’t stay away too long Bill.

    There will be a lot of Remainer / EU English moving upon here soon and snapping up all the great houses.

    The Scottish Government should give a property tax break for any English Residents to relocate North to stay in the EU. 🙂

  333. manandboy says:

    Mac, a bit ambiguous perhaps? Which nation are you thinking of at number four. Not NI surely, that Westminster accounting unit, made up of 6 counties of the Province of Ulster, and ‘partitioned’ or, ringfenced by Westminster in May 1921?

    A nation?

  334. Mac says:


    Poetic licence… Merely rhetoric that makes a point. 🙂

  335. Mac says:

    Manandboy @3:24

    But I do believe that Irish Unification is the ideal.

    I was talking to people at HMRC in the UK today… this guys said that he has lost half his department, as they are all gone to work on ‘No Deal’ Brexit. It’s holding up audits, tax reviews and so on.

    Additionally, I talked with Dunn and Bradstreet in Ireland. They are moving staff over from UK now, due to Brexit.

    It’s happening

  336. CameronB Brodie says:

    And a bit more on the vital role played by pragmatic ethics.

    What Is and What Should Pragmatic Ethics Be?
    Some Remarks on Recent Scholarship


    The aim of this paper is twofold. First, it offers a summary compilation of the main achievements in recent scholarship on the issue of pragmatic ethics – underlining the lack of consensus, but also showing basic agreement about the key features of the ethical philosophy of pragmatism. Second, it focus on two strands of pragmatism: the one spearheaded by Charles S. Peirce, which stresses the importance of habits, and the tendency of things (including human beings) to become habit-governed as the key to the de-velopment of ‘concrete reasonableness’, the ultimate end by which human action ought to be guided; and the one led by John Dewey, which stresses the importance of deliberative activity —a ‘dramatic rehearsal’ of the possible consequences of every course of action – and the central role of educational work in developing the ‘growth’ of human nature, in itself the highest ethical ideal – an ideal that manifests itself in the ‘reconstruction’ of a new and more democratic society.

  337. Dr Jim says:

    Scotland, the country that argues so much with itself about how the goals should be scored and who should score them, then counting up the points they need to progress to the next round that they forget they’ve actually got to win the game first

  338. Scozzie says:

    Mac @ 3.32pm
    Watching this from afar I’m quite freaked out by the sense of ‘sleepwalking’ of the general public of what’s facing them, it’s like boiling lobsters in a pot.

    Here in Oz, there’s talk of the Aus / EU trade agreement and the impact of geographical named produce – they’re all up in arms that an ETA will mean no Aussie named fetta, prosseco etc. But absolutely no MSM coverage or interest in a potential ‘unicorn’ deal with the UK. The UK is just not on the radar.

    I really hope Scotland gets it’s shit together coz we’ve got 2 choices – get off our knees and take control of our sovereingty or be fucked forever more by WM.

  339. CameronB Brodie says:

    And a bit more on concrete reasonableness in politics.

    Political parties, motivated reasoning, and
    public opinion formation

  340. chicmac says:

    Re The National’s spoof,

    It was reminiscent of The Wee Unionist Handbook spoofs of the early Naughties but when I dug one out of my archives I found I really could no longer tell the difference between what was spoof then and current reality.

  341. jfngw says:

    I see the Times has Ruth Davidson compare Boris Johnson to Prince Hal, a wayward monarch who turns out to be a wise king, from Shakespeare. Can rthe grovelling get any lower, it was not that long ago she gave the impression he was another Shakespeare character (Bottom) in operation arse.

    Prostrate yourself Dame Ruth before your wise monarch! This person has no self respect and deserves none from the voters in Scotland.

  342. Mac says:

    Jfngw @4:21

    Indeed a beautify executed ass kissing grovel using literature to woo her intended kissee.
    I am sure De Piffle will swoon with the description.

    What a silly old u-turning flip flopping old tart.

  343. Mac says:

    Stu… one of my comments is awaiting moderation? Since 3:11

    Not sure why?

  344. CameronB Brodie says:

    Here’s one that should be of interest to Scotland’s legal ‘experts’, though only if they’re not friends of (white) English/British nationalism and the New Right.


  345. CameronB Brodie says:

    And a bit more on pragmatism, that might be of interest to the less liberal among us. Such as those supporting British nationalism or the proposed changes to the GRA.

    In Defense of Outlaws: Liberalism and the Role of
    Reasonableness, Public Reason, and Tolerance in
    Multicultural Constitutionalism

  346. Liz g says:

    Mac @ 4.25
    That one about the School Title deeds is truly shocking..
    But here’s the thing…
    While I know education is separate and these are Titles to English School’s that have been disappeared by Gove!
    Doesn’t the Scottish tax payer have an interest too?
    This pooling and sharing thing has been going on for quite some time!

  347. robertknight says:

    We’d better make damned sure Indy Scotland is up and running BEFORE any likely cross-border poll leading to a United Ireland.

    Too many knuckle dragging, Union flag waving mouth breathers would look to set up in the west of Scotland in the event of Irish unification. Encouraged no doubt, understandably so, by the Irish. No Thanks!

  348. Robert Peffers says:

    @Clootie says: 13 August, 2019 at 5:30 pm:

    ” … You are quite correct that the SNP vote will go down.”

    I do not think you get what I’m saying, Clootie. No doubt the SNP LIST vote will go down and that is exactly what Stu’s idea is speculating about. His intention is that it should go down as the faithful vote for an SNP candidate as usual but instead of voting for the SNP on the list as a party the faithful should vote for the Wings party only on the list/regional vote.

    What I’m thinking is that there is more than enough evidence of voter confusion as to how the system works that these confused voters might get even more confused and the SNP candidate vote also go down.

    Not only that but before the Wings article had hardly even got published by Stu a whole stew of Wingers, within seconds even, were posting comments along the lines of, not about the new party assisting the independence cause but saying it was a great idea to gee up the far too complacent SNP because … … yada! Yada! Yada! too comfortable, complacent, not doing anything and so on.

    The idea is to win list seats for the SNP – not to gee up the SNP. Support for indy is going up – reading some wingers you would be excused for thinking it was going down.

  349. manandboy says:


    Brexit has created an underground chamber filling up with economic and social magma, and as all you volcanologists will know, it is then only a question of time and pressure before the whole thing erupts.

    “As a British citizen who has lived in Germany and Austria for the past 20-odd years and visits the UK to visit family at least twice a year, I really notice the change in atmosphere every time I visit. It is so sad.”

    “Brexit has swiped away so much in its demand for total attention. Like a hysterical child screaming to be noticed . A whole raft of problems are being created by the negligence of so many social matters as the government and the people obsess over a foolish decision.”

    It has long since been said that Independence will come to Scotland partly because of events elsewhere.

    In the meantime, do not imagine for one moment, that the Tory Government has any real idea of what the future holds, nor does it have any real control over it.

    The rumbling has already begun deep down below the surface. It won’t be long before the first eruption, then more, and then the lava will pour out. But while Scotland need only wait for these events to unfold, it should prepare so as to be in a state of readiness for the inevitable consequences.

    Ps. The Titanic was proclaimed ‘unsinkable’. Brexit is far bigger than any mere iceberg.

  350. Robert Peffers says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland says: 13 August, 2019 at 5:57 pm:

    ” … It seems that you still don’t understand how the AMS system operates, RP. As Stu shows, the SNP actually did reasonably well in the list vote, but it was all for nought,”

    Aye! Because that is exactly what it was designed to do but even that was a triumph for the unionists because neither they or the indy supporters had figured in the sheer confusion of the electorate. A confusion that has not gone away.

  351. Famous15 says:

    I want the referendum to end theUnion to take place before any list party is necessary.

  352. manandboy says:

    Robert Knight says:
    “Too many knuckle dragging, Union flag waving mouth breathers would look to set up in the west of Scotland in the event of Irish unification”

    The ‘Orange County’ is waiting for such an influx and the rapid expansion of the existing Loyalist population. A whole new can of worms. Hmmm. Better make that a fifty gallon drum of worms.

  353. Dr Jim says:

    Sky news once again promoting England to the status of United Kingdom as they report on England’s power outages

    Why doesn’t England want to call their own country by its name, are they ashamed, I don’t think so, is it a mistake, I don’t think so, is it an instruction from above, I think so

  354. CameronB Brodie says:

    And a bit more on “concrete reasonableness” in politics.

    Pragmatism and Objectivity: Essays Sparked by the Work of Nicholas Rescher

    In this collection of 14 essays many aspects of classical and contemporary pragmatism are examined with reference, at least in most cases, to the work of Nicholas Rescher. Usually, those who are interested in pragmatism from an historical point of view tend to forget that, from the beginning, a substantial polarity is present in this tradition of thought. It is a dichotomy between what Rescher calls “pragmatism of the left”, i.e. a flexible type of pragmatism which endorses a greatly enhanced cognitive relativism, and a “pragmatism of the right”, a different position that sees the pragmatist stance as a source of cognitive security. Both positions are eager to assure pluralism in the cognitive enterprise and in the concrete conduct of human affairs, but the meaning they attribute to the term “pluralism” is not the same….

  355. Dorothy Devine says:

    191 Crow Road – the Ironing Company ,Taking out the creases and wrinkles??

    I will check tomorrow to see if it is still operational as the Ironing Company

  356. CameronB Brodie says:

    Back to the lunacy of the proposed changes to the GRA.

    Women, Culture, and Development: A Study of Human Capabilities
    Pragmatism and Moral Objectivity

  357. Robert Peffers says:

    @Capella says: 13 August, 2019 at 6:02 pm:

    ” … It is quite possible that a mass migration of the women’s vote from the SNP to the Wings Party will happen if the SNP do not change course.”

    In case you had not noticed the SNP has already started to change course and have called a halt to consider the matter further. I’ve been around the UK political scene long enough to have seen all this sort of thing happen within all the political parties but of them all the SNP have always been less prone to it than the rest.

    This is because the SNP really are democratic in the way they work yet still get caught up in the madness. The madness is mainly due to the lobbying system where sometimes small but valuable groups had far more influence than their numbers should justify. Mainly this is due to the proverbial, “Dark Money”. Think how long the tobacco lobby got away with literally killing people in their greed for more and more profits, think of the asbestos lobby that were killing workers all over the UK.

    There were/are many more such groups and the current Brexiteers are among them. The current trade unions with now wealthy union leaders and workers conditions becoming less by the day. The SNP are less vulnerable to such groups than most because SNP rules state that the only way for SNP policy to change is by delegates of the branches at national conference. Now this cannot always stop bad ideas getting through the system but it certainly goes a long way in the right direction but here is a thought.

    In the first place note that the SG has already stopped this self declared gender madness in its track at least temporarily. These things happen because the parliamentary parties are embroiled in so many issues and this allows small by noisy groups to make a big fuss but the SNP usually can side-track them by simply referring matters to national conference.

    I’ve posted the obvious cure for the problem here on Wings and it is simple. All females who object to self declared gender need do is turn up at SNP branch meetings and move motions against the idea. I doubt that matters have changed over much since I was able to actively attend branch meetings for there was always a need to get more delegates to attend National conference but even if there has been changes female objections being raised as motions at branch level will kill most things stone dead.

    This democracy within the parties is one of the major factors that have almost killed off the Labour party and which has allowed the Brexiteers to take over the Tory party.

    When parties stop being democratic within the party then the loony fringe takes over. Women will not make self declared gender issues go away by carping on blogs and such like but they can do so by getting to branch meetings and using their votes and their rights to make proposals at branches.

  358. Effijy says:

    That is funny Labour looking to take that small office on Crow Rd
    Glasgow. Are they going out on their own away from their London Masters?

    They are indeed fortunate that the sign above the shop says
    Make Up Artists!

    Never a more description sign hangs over any other shop.

  359. Bobp says:

    Robert knight 5.01pm you got that right in one.

  360. CameronB Brodie says:

    This is hard work when folk think my actions are driven by ego. Though I certainly don’t know it all, I’ve a training in how to combat illiberal political organisation, such as the British state. Fortunately, this insight is also ideally suited to combating woke totalitarianism.

    Objective Truth in Bernstein’s ‘Pragmatic Turn’

  361. Robert Peffers says:

    @Fergus Green says: 13 August, 2019 at 7:22 pm

    ” …. The BritNat parties will continue to fight dirty and do everything they can to reverse the democratic Yes vote. They might even roll out Gordo with a fresh vow.

    They are much more likely to roll out the tanks and the tear gas.

  362. Clapper57 says:

    I’m thinking of producing a Brexit board game…(not really but play along he he he).

    A bit like monopoly but obvs without the money…cause the winning of the game is not one in which you actually get richer.

    Will still have a throwing of the dice …game of chance.

    The tokens you use to play could be represented by countries or those well kent players in Brexit ?

    Not established the rules yet…probably make it up as I go along…..eventually ….but will set a time limit to achieve…unless I run out of time then I will extend it.

    This is harder than I thought..thought it would be easy…no one has done this before…so guess that gives me licence to do what I want….cause after all it’s MY Brexit game…my rules…once I set the rules others will have to follow them….though I could be persuaded to create other versions where rules can change dependent on Brexit itself…art imitating life and all that.

    So how to brand…well obvs BRITISH cause that is what it represents..though do not want to offend nations within UKOK that voted remain…so could produce different ones for each nation….hmm but costs…nah…non negotiable got to be British Brexit board game …after all this is a business and won’t have the time or money to waste to worry about offending those with different opinions ….Jeeso…why did I even think I could do this…what possessed me to think this would work…so…forget that game…but I wonder …..could I produce a board game based on Connect four but called The Awesome Foursome….wait that could offend etc etc….me bad…again.

  363. geeo says:

    No UK-US trade deal if Brexit risks peace in NI

    Oops, who knew !!

    Looks like the old Irish American lobby does not quite agree with Trump on such matters, Mr “day one” trade deal spewbagger.

  364. Thanks for the explanation and the vision Stuart. I read the article and many of the comments. I think it is a fascinating idea and your argument is winning me round. I still have some concerns, but life is never without risk. It will be interesting to see if the Electoral Commission have any issues with it and how exactly the Unionist parties respond. I think one of my biggest worries would be a potential negative impact on what this site does so brilliantly (e.g. your rebuttal work). More strength to your elbow etc…

  365. manandboy says:
    Tiny Kashmir vs the mighty India. Muslim vs Hindu.

    Part of the legacy of the British Empire, with the fingerprints of the English Ruling Class all over it.

  366. SilverDarling says:

    @Robert Peffers 5.57 pm

    I have never heard such patronizing guff.

    It assumes ‘women who object’ are a homogenous group and are members of the SNP or would even want to be. There are a significant number of women who currently vote for and support the SNP who are increasingly angry at how the SNP are handling this matter.

    The point is the SNP promised to extend the consultation but yet again appear to have only extended their chats in the direction of the groups who are sympathetic to their reforms.

    The Women’s groups who have led the objection are still being excluded and rebuffed by Nicola Sturgeon and Shirley Anne Somerville as shown in these threads.

    You are completely out of your depth on this and until you are better informed it would be wise to not embarrass yourself further. This will not be sorted by telling us we should all just listen to you and join the SNP as you think the SNP are great.

  367. Hamish100 says:

    So for the regional vote
    The Unionists ( they decide not to stand as separate entities)
    Not WOS for Independence
    The profanity party
    Socialists for Independence
    Vegans for Independence
    Jim Sillars for something

    Decisions, decisions!

  368. Mac says:

    Robert Peffers @12 43

    The polls are moving mostly due to the threat of Brexit.

  369. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert Peffers
    I agree with SilverDarling, you appear out of your depth on this one. You also appear to place party loyalty before legal reason and objective truth. This is the sort of attitude that is enabling ideological idealism to destroy the SNP from within.

  370. David says:

    He is not going to do this its only about the website .
    And the kick back is not coming from anyone except the SNP Greens

  371. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Robert Peffers @ 17:15,

    My view also, RP. And needs to be changed ASAP.

    (I’m not sure though if the new powers include the ability to change the voting system. It may still be a reserved matter. Maybe someone can enlighten us further.)

  372. ahundredthidiot says:

    Just in case you are sitting on the fence on this one – let’s reminder ourselves that we have a 100% failure rate when it comes to securing Scotlands Independence.

    No more. Next time we win. And if we get to ’21 elections without a Win, this will need to happen, so, we prepare now. Belts and Braces.

  373. Capella says:

    @ Chicmac 4.10 – that is a brilliant summary of unionists DOs and DONTs – should be circulated far and wide. Like Heydrich’s advice it seems to be a handbook for colonialists everywhere:

  374. Abulhaq says:

    @Manandboy 6:37
    A Hindu Raj on the rampage, neither of the states in the sub continent has kicked the nasty raj habits, and the continued dominance of the English language, a colonial voice, among the so called élite has created a wider socio-cultural gap between the masses and political class than even under the British.
    Kashmir was before Islam Hindu and Buddhist. The Hindu nationalists argue it should ultimately return to Hinduism which they claim as a justification for Indian hegemony.
    There was tension between Muslims and Hindus before the British but they emphasized the differences under their rule in a fashion quite unlike that of the more inculturated and syncretic Mughal dynasties.
    It is no fun being a Muslim, statistically one of the poorest communities, in Modi’s contemporary India.
    Whether Syriac Christian, Uyghur, Tibetan, Rohingya or Kashmiri times are not good for stateless peoples.
    Scotland although not in the same ‘boat’ really needs to get a move on.

  375. Cubby says:

    Silver Darling@6.41pm

    Another hypocrite. For clarity I mean you Silver Darling. You criticise others for personal attacks but are happy to do so yourself. But no doubt your personal attacks in your mind are ok because, well, you think they are ok.

    I am not a member of the SNP and not once have I read R. Peffers asking or telling anyone to join the SNP as you say. Also for the sake of clarity this is a personal attack so please feel free to overreact.

  376. Lenny Hartley says:

    Republicofscotland 1534 revlabour office at Crow Road, just noting that according to Wikipedia Leonards missus is called Karen and the person registering the companies is called Coleen. Wonder if its sister or unconnected.

  377. Ghillie says:

    Robert Peffers @ 5.57 pm

    Robert, thank you.

    A calm and reasonable response explaining yet again why the SNP work so well for us all.

    As for Stuart Campbell’s ideas just now, I am keeping an open mind and will reserve judgment for now.

    In the face of a new wave of trolling, as is to be expected every time the polls see Scottish Independence gaining more and more ground, I am so very grateful to all who are working so hard for Scotland’s Independence 🙂

  378. CameronB Brodie says:

    I hope Scotland is waking up to the fact that religious sectarianism is the tool of choice for the colonialist, who are determined to suppress local democracy and political opposition to imperial rule.

  379. Thepnr says:

    @Lenny Hartley

    Colleen is 74 years old and has had a few directorships, a couple with the same person, check his companies out all small businesses.

    In my view nothing at all to do with Labour in Scotland.

  380. CameronB Brodie says:

    Come on now. The SNP may be working for us but they are also working against us. There definately appears to be a commitment within the SNP hierarchy, to force through the proposed changes to the GRA. These changes are not compatible with liberal constitutionalism, subsequently, these proposed changes are also incompatible with the drive towards Scotland’s self-determination.

    It’s the likes of Hunter and Black that are doing a fine job in destroying the party from within.

  381. Liz g says:

    Robert Peffers @ 5.57
    The women members – have – turned up in their droves to the meetings Robert and they have made their voices heard.
    They’ve written,e-mailed and formed group’s to get behind Joan and Joanna.
    That’s exactly the point I’m making…
    They did so in enough numbers to make the SNP back off the Gender thing.
    So yes so far so good…
    The SNP vote will likely hold…. But the Women I speak of are angry and feel the SNP,and ALL of Holyrood tried to reduce their rights on the down low,and the Greens are still keen to do so..
    What won’t hold in 2021 is the Greens vote.

    We also know that the SNP 1&2 vote at the last election didn’t produce enough to survive the division of the system and only the Green vote held the pro Indy majority.
    None of these Women want the Greens to hold the balance of power in Holyrood again.

    Therefore it seems to me… The best solution to all of this is a pro independence party to emerge to stand on the List!
    One that the Women I speak of could trust and it has to be said, which won’t wave through the dismantling of their hard won rights.
    A Wings Party credentials on this issue alone is beyond dispute.
    And this potential Wings party is also making it clear that is no threat to the SNP
    Absolutely no one in their right mind thinks that the SNP are not the party to vote for to get Independence.
    It’s Independence that’s holding them to the SNP, that and the fact that the British Unionist Party’s were just as keen for the GRA and they wouldn’t believe a U turn or an astro turf party over it.

    I can’t see anything wrong with a belt and braces approach and right here right now the Greens have blown it and I’m not all that sure that SNP 1&2 is realistic now..
    While this might seem like a one issue “issue” it’s half the population and certainly enough SNP members ( Indy supporters by default) objecting to spook the leaders to back off..
    That’s a lot of votes Robert and it’s pretty fair to say that included in those objections was the members only real power which is to say “do this and I won’t vote for you”!

    As I’ve said before and tried to on Bella Caledonia… When the facts change ye change yer mind!!!

  382. ahundredthidiot says:


    I always imagine a wee gallus paratrooper in the middle of the word ‘separately’……..that way I spell it right.

    Likewise with another word, (I imagine hearing it with a Weegie accent) ‘death in the telly’ – definitely.

    I’ll get ma coat…..

  383. Bill McLean says:

    call med dave at 2.10 – thanks for your comment. Feel a bit out of it so far but will adjust – have moved 32 times in my life this is just the latest adventure but for sure it will be the last. My heart and thoughts will always be with Scotland and it’s people. Good luck to all!

  384. Ghillie says:

    Cameron B @ 8.15 pm

    Yes, scary times.

    But I do expect sense to prevail.

    There are strong and well reasoned voices to counter those I don’t agree with.

    There has to be a safe way through this and I think it will be found. I agree with Robert Peffers on this.

    But well done for keeping up the pressure and all the very useful info you are finding =)

  385. Capella says:

    @ Robert Peffers – you are quite right, SNP policy is supposed to be made via resolutions from branches voted on at Conference. However, on this issue (and maybe others for all I know) this admirably democratic system was bypassed. As a member, I have a problem with ideological lobby groups shaping policy without the knowledge of the members. This is called “policy capture” and it is a serious problem.

    As for who is bankrolling this ideology – see article “Who Are the Rich White Men Institutionalising Transgender Ideology”

    I agree with Silver Darling on this one.

  386. Bill McLean says:

    Mac AT 3.23 – thanks to you too. Brummy wife and I will be up for the Independence celebration but don’t think we’ll ever be back permanently as both in our 70s. Good luck and thanks again!

  387. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr 8.09 nothing to do with Labour in Scotland

    Is calling two businesses “Labour in Scotland” not a bit of a giveaway?

  388. CameronB Brodie says:

    Thank, I can do with all the help I can get with spelling, though it might be a bit late in the game for me to improve my writing skills. The Rev. gave me tips on better proof-reading, but changing habits is never easy. Hence pragmatic ethics. 😉

  389. Ken500 says:

    A rep of a political Party can’t tell voters to vote for another Party. It is against electoral rules. Rep are not supposed to support another Party for obvious reasons. Why are they in one Party endorsing another. People have been expelled for that. Ie Alastair Campbell.

    Campaign to change the electoral system. Holyrood has the powers. Get an outright SNP majority.

  390. ahundredthidiot says:

    Instead of women having to turn up at SNP branch meetings to state their piece to change the direction of travel of SNP policy and risk being labelled ‘any sort of phobic’, maybe the Party should develop a more 21st century model of capturing said info.

    Simply survey monkey all SNP members – it’s not bloody rocket science. Then all the nutjob groups become the tiny fringe nutters they are (self ID, transgender, etc)

  391. CameronB Brodie says:

    Yes, hopefully common sense will prevail, though I don’t like leaving the future of Scotland’s democracy up to chance.

    Pragmatism: Objectivity Despite Fact/Value Entanglement


    Can the pragmatic science-policy model cluster that emphasises democratic public participation and deliberation ensure reliable, politically legitimate and useful scientific assessments, despite the implied ethical and social value judgements?

    Section 6.1 will analyse the weaknesses of some variations of the pragmatic model cluster, including substantial open questions with regard to scientific objectivity. In order to philosophically substantiate the possibility of objective knowledge despite the value judgements involved, Sect. 6.2 will introduce pragmatist philosophy in the tradition of John Dewey and Hilary Putnam as a fundamental, convincing philosophy of science, epistemology and meta-ethics.

    Pragmatism combines anti-scepticism with fallibilism and fact/value entanglement. Some implications of this philosophy are discussed in Sect. 6.3, before Sect. 6.4 develops a refined variation of the pragmatic science-policy model based on this Deweyan-Putnamian pragmatism.

    In a highly interdisciplinary manner, and jointly with stakeholders and the public, this refined pragmatic model suggests (i) careful exploration of alternative problem framings and (ii) critical reflection on different policy ends and means in light of the practical implications of the means (while making disputed ethical assumptions transparent).

    This may require a substantial revision of initial policy goals if the best available means have severe side effects. The four general norms for scientific expertise in policy (Sect 2.1.3) may be realisable when employing this refined pragmatic model.

    Practical Implication Climate Policy Policy Option Public Participation

  392. CameronB Brodie says:

    Please educate yourselves.

    Pragmatism and Evidence-Based Medicine: A Role for “Objectivity” and “Reality” in Our Vocabulary

  393. Capella says:

    @ Liz g – well said – we shouldn’t be in this situation.
    The report in Edinburgh University Press by researchers Kath Murray and Lucy Hunter Blackburn is worth reading in full.


  394. Thepnr says:


    The two companies are actually called:

    LABOUR PARTY SCOTLAND LTD Appointed 8th Aug 2019

    SCOTS LABOUR PARTY LTD Appointed 18th July 2019

    Both companies are registered at 191 Crow Road, Broomhill, Glasgow/

    Previous directorships of Colleen Leonard include:

    THEJAGGY THISTLE LIMITED Appointed 31st Aug 2012

    A further director of SCOTS LABOUR PARTY LTD is George Martin who gives his correspondence address as International House, 38 Thistle Street, Edinburgh.

    He has a further two directorships listed/

    OUTDOOR SCOTLAND LIMITED which has the same 191 Crow Road address and STIRLINGSHIRE CARAVANS LIMITED.

    OUTDOOR SCOTLAND LIMITED also had a director called Eric Martin, he has since resigned.

    Eric Martin was also a director of THEJAGGY THISTLE LIMITED together with Colleen Leonard.

    It doesn’t look to me like the actions of the Labour Party in Scotland, but hey who knows and I may get a surprise.

  395. Capella says:

    @ Thepnr – maybe they’re employment agencies for people who work on building sites 🙂

  396. CameronB Brodie says:

    This should set you on a righteous path on this core issue.

    N.B. Men and women have different sex-based epistemology, so they have different needs and different claims to human rights from men. Trans-women are men who have undergone radical and invasive medication in order to change their outward appearance to that of women. Trans-women are not women, they are trans-women.

    A pragmatist approach to the problem of knowledge in health psychology


    The multiplicity of forms of health-related knowledge, including biomedical knowledge, lay knowledge, and critical constructionist knowledge, raises challenges for health researchers. On one hand, there is a demand for a pluralist acceptance of the variety of health-related knowledge. On the other, the need to improve health calls for action, and thus for choices between opposing forms of knowledge.

    The present article proposes a pragmatist approach to this epistemological problem. According to pragmatism, knowledge is a tool for action and as such it should be evaluated according to whether it serves the desired interests. We identify implications for research methodology and the choice of research goals.

    pragmatism; epistemology; medical knowledge; lay knowledge; methodology

  397. Dan says:

    Jeezo, the mind wanders during a 6 hour Windows upgrade…

    Hypothesis – The SNP’s flirtation with gender / Self ID policy is merely a cunning ruse by the high heid yins to beat the D’Hondt system…
    Basically a calculated plan has been enacted that entails temporarily embracing the entryism of wokeists pushing their emotive and divisive agenda.
    This in turn will duly piss off a section of the SNP’s core support, and thus reduce their ultimate vote share in 2021 from 2016 levels (which resulted in minority government), in an effort to hit the sweet spot and replicate the 2011 election result (majority government).

    Supporting evidence for the above theory in the following tweet from 2016 that I noticed had recently been retweeted in response to the suggestion of a possible new Pro-Indy Regional List Party.
    Clearly the “Both Votes SNP” directive didn’t work in 2016, but lessons have been learned.

    NB: This post may or may not be parody, and seemingly with scientific reality no longer valid, how would anyone know anyway.

  398. cynicalHighlander says:

    Wings Independence National Grafters for Scotland!

  399. manandboy says:

    Reading the comments BTL of this article, really is an education, principally because so many contributors have personal experience of living in other European countries, and are able to compare life in England with life in continental Europe. The picture is clear. England is, on so many levels, of much lower quality of life compared to our friends across the English Channel.

    Here in Scotland we only have one measure of how we are. England tells us, and we believe our Imperial Masters, as we have been conditioned to do.

  400. CameronB Brodie says:

    As I said, the proposed changes to the GRA are incompatible with liberal constitutionalism. This is largely because self-ID of sex is incompatible with medical science. Subsequently, the SNP really need to get their woke-wing sorted, or they risk undermining the indy movement and the potential for Scotland to gain self-determination.

    ‘Pragmatic complexity’ a new foundation for moving beyond ‘evidence-based policy making’?


    Despite a plethora of academic criticism for the past few decades, the realm of policy still remains dominated by the rational, positivist and quantitative approaches of New Public Management (NPM), ‘evidence-based’ approaches (EBPM) and target/accountancy oriented ‘scientific’ management.

    These approaches tend to have a top-down, centralising and hierarchical tendency in relation to policy actors and stakeholders and often imply a much greater degree of certainty and knowledge than is realistic within most policy situations. This dominance (despite its weaknesses) rests on its ‘scientific’ foundation, perceived utility and lack of an acceptable and practical alternative framework.

    Two notable attempts to develop an alternative to this dominant framework, however, have come from the older tradition of American pragmatism and the newer approach of complexity. We propose to bring them together to provide a positive alternative to these modernist ideas, one that conditions but does not reject the value of scientific rationality….

  401. call me dave says:

    Jings! A 6.5hrs upgrade to windows.

    I got off lightly then

    2.5hrs last week and another 1.5hrs on Monday.

    I also started to mind wander and talked to that irritating wee rotating circle of dots about this idea of Stu’s.

    The dots said…YES 🙂

  402. twathater says:

    @ Liz G 8.19pm Ah’m getting sick o this Liz once again I’m agreeing with you , the hierarchy HAVE to ditch this proposal till after indy2 , even the current proposal to have a further consultation shortly is causing uproar on t’internet by women’s groups claiming to be excluded . Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory , the SNP have to realise that pissing off 50% of their electorate won’t go down well
    I am an elderly male whose wife ,daughter and many female friends and relatives are totally opposed to this forced onslaught on their sex and are genuinely concerned at the impact this unneeded diversionary legislation will have on indy , moreover they are worried what will come next

    My wife watched Nicola on loose women yesterday where she was espousing her support for women’s issues but she also felt she was being hypocritical in attempting to force this issue through despite the opposition of many women’s organisations and giving more credibility to biased vociferous fringe organisations

    This has MAJOR implications for womanhood , science and personal beliefs , no one should be able to fabricate sex

  403. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    RE: mentions of “Jaggy Thistle”, in connection with Colleen Leonard.

    Did a wee Google search – loads of Jaggy Thistles these days. However, the original that I recall was a comedy news blog, around 15-20 years ago.

    Here’s mention of it:-

    I had written a wee story for it, which can be found at the Internet Archive.

  404. ben madigan says:

    What are these upgrades for? The PC doesn’t work quicker, pics are no better in definition, graphs still take time to appear . . .

  405. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    Just had this flagged up on my Facebook news feed:-

    As soon as I reached “Though it lost the referendum, the governing Scottish Nationalist party had reason to be hopeful that next time”, I realised that the writer was writing from a position of ignorance.

    This was compounded by the offering,
    “the Scottish Conservatives under the moderate and charismatic leadership of Ruth Davidson”.

    This has been written by someone who gets their info from the UK MSM, instead of doing their own research. That impression is reinforced by this heap of $h¡†:-

    “Under the terms set out in the Scotland Act, the law governing devolution, Holyrood would need permission from Westminster before such a vote could be held. So Sturgeon’s battle plan from here on out is to stir up as much anti-English — and specifically anti-Tory — sentiment as possible.”

    PERMISSION? Anti-English? Yi bliddy think so? This is p¡$$- poor ‘journalism’ and I haven’t even finished reading it yet!

    Actually, at that point, I gave up…

  406. Brian Doonthetoon says:

    AH! Reached the end, where I found,

    “Madeleine Kearns is a William F. Buckley Fellow in Political Journalism at the National Review Institute. She is from Glasgow, Scotland, and is a trained singer.”

    A trained singer. Type no more…

  407. S.Perspective says:

    Ok. We get it. But what makes you so sure that Wings would do better than RISE?
    Meanwhile, the Greens are more mainstream than you think. Why not persuade the SNP to not contest the regional vote? Most Indy voters would vote Green, which would bring about the intended result without any new party. Job done.

  408. Liz g says:

    Twathater 9.51
    Don’t Ye just relish the day when we do disagree… It will be a doozay… LOL 🙂

    But Thank you, you pointed out the very thing I forgot…
    For every woman who is up in arms about this.
    There’s a husband, a son,a father,a brother ect they are influencing…
    And let me tell ya Twathater the minute they found out this issue was being pushed into the Schools and included our kid’s… Some, not all, but some, were sayin “this transcends even independence” these are independence campaigners by the way. ..women who “used ” to say with fondness “wee Mahiri Black” till that video clip… Not any more they don’t…

    Others to be fair took the obvious line that there’s little we could do about it with Westminster and our views were more likely to be worth something at Holyrood…
    And Robert Peffers is right, in that, it was the SNP Women who gave the politicians a wake up call!
    That the system has worked so far is why I say the SNP vote will hold.. But I would caution they are playing with fire here…..
    Get the GRA reserved to Westminster and pushed through and we’d have Indy by the following Friday… 🙂

  409. Capella says:

    @ S Perespective – perhaps you missed the comments above – the Greens are even more demented on the gender Self ID issue than the SNP. No way will I vote Green. Having idiots such as these hold the balance of power in Holyrood is a nightmare.

  410. CameronB Brodie says:

    In a time when experts are disparaged by regressive populists of the New Right (see Gove and BoJo), here’s one for Scots to consider in relation to the Scottish themed media. Woke-nats should also take head.

    Our Republic and its press will rise or fall together,” Pulitzer wrote. “An able, disinterested, public-spirited press, with trained intelligence to know the right and courage to do it, can preserve that public virtue without which popular government is a sham and a mockery. A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself. The power to mould the future of the Republic will be in the hands of the journalists of future generations. – Joseph Pulitzer

  411. manandboy says:

    I often fall into the trap of assuming that the messages of whichever politician I’m reading or listening to, are actually addressed to me.
    But that is simply not the case, nor is it the case for the majority. So it is useful to be reminded of how politics is practiced in the rUK in this statement attributed to George W Bush: ‘You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on’.

    ‘Boris’ Johnson’s statements of fantasy, duplicity and tomfoolery, could not possibly be believed by the learned and the clever. No, but they will be believed without question by the simple minded, the trusting vulnerable, the innately naive, and those inclined to gullibility, and any other member of the brainwashed electorate.
    Others will accept what Mr Johnson says but without believing a word he says. These are the other members of the privileged classes, to which Johnson belongs. Its all part of a carefully rigged game, which has been meticulously dressed in the garments of Democracy. But, of course, it is no such thing, as any member of Royalty, the Aristocracy, or the House of Lords might tell you after a few glasses of brandy.

    This is how politics works.

  412. CameronB Brodie says:

    Woke totalitarianism is incompatible with liberal democracy and sustainable public policy. That’s more than sad, as ecological concern in government is essential for a sustainable future. Scotland needs a new Green party, IMHO. One that has not abandoned ethical reason and women.

  413. cynicalHighlander says:


    GRA alienates women 50% of the population I wouldn’t vote green if my life depended on it

  414. Liz g says:

    I should just say in addition…
    None not ONE of the Women I am speaking of wants Trans People hurt,or invisible.
    They also think that the Trans community is being played and played big time and they don’t like that either… They really don’t..
    As I’ve said in the past there are very few women who haven’t come across a Trans Woman usually in a toilet somewhere..
    We understand why they are there and as far as I can tell most of us shrug and move on… and those Trans Woman are never a threat or a problem.
    They are not the issue..
    It’s a shitty hand life has delt them and a hard road they’re walking.
    I’ve never met anyone yet who wants to add to that burden.
    Most Women can be and are reasonable,they should try to make a better case than my way or the hi-way…
    Leave the fanatics with an agenda and speak to Women,we might not be quite ready after this but we’d get there …

  415. Dan says:

    @call me dave & ben madigan

    I just checked and it looks like the “upgrade” to my machine used the best part of 4GB.
    A more IT savvy friend than I mentioned there was some kind of bug in security that needed sorted, but having read what the big companies such as FB, MS and others have been up to with their snooping and listening programs would you really trust anything they say…

  416. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Patrick Harvie
    Fill your boots you misogynistic bawbag. Remember, “sex” is not the same as “gender”, and it is not medically possible to change sex. That is why the legislation refers to “gender” recognition and not “sex” recognition.

    Gender, equity and human rights
    Gender, equity and human rights in the Sustainable Development Goals

  417. Liz g says:

    Capella @ 8.59
    Thanks for that link..
    I have got as far as the Prison stuff and I have to stop or I’ll not sleep the night 🙂
    I will read on though , I haven’t seen this before and it’s good stuff..

  418. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Patrick Harvie
    A bit more to help in you political re-edumication, an insight in to why your position on the GRA is incompatible with a sustainable approach to living. Or do you believe that sexuality trumps biology in legal reason and policy formation?

    Proposed Goals and Targets
    Goal 4: Achieve Gender Equality, Social Inclusion, and Human Rights for All

  419. Patrick Roden says:

    @Lenny Hartley:

    just noting that according to Wikipedia Leonards missus is called Karen and the person registering the companies is called Coleen. Wonder if its sister or unconnected.

    Coleen was born in 1945 and seems to have the habit of starting up companies, becoming a director, then immediately resigning!

    Is she related to Richard Leonard?

    Needs some explaining by Labour.

  420. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    CameronB Brodie @ 22:42:

    Woke totalitarianism

    Covered it in such a beautifully succinct and memorable phrase. I doff my (metaphotical) cap to you, Cam.

    (See what you can do when you try! =grin=)

  421. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Patrick Harvie
    You’re a misogynist and a charlatan. Your party appears to value ideological idealism over ethical reason. That’s why the Greens will never get my vote.


  422. CameronB Brodie says:

    Robert J. Sutherland
    I do try to do my best and I am trying, or so I’ve been told. 😉

    I’m not anti-trans, I just believe in the value of rational jurisprudence, social equity and human rights.

    Women’s sex-based rights are human rights which will be undermined by the proposed changes to the GRA.

    Transgender Rights as Human Rights


    Arguments to support transgender rights often rely on “born that way” arguments, which assert that gender identity is innate, immutable, and unassociated with choice. These arguments are vulnerable to attack on several grounds, including on the basis of emerging scientific data. Stronger support for transgender rights arises from human rights arguments.

    Transgender Rights as Human Rights

    We argue, in contrast, that transgender rights stem from human rights, i.e., those fundamental rights belonging to every person. Persons with either cisgender (in which assigned and experienced gender are the same) or transgender identities deserve to live and flourish in their communities – with freedom to learn, work, love, and play – and build lives connected with others at home, in the work place, and in public settings without fear for their safety and survival.

    These deeply personal decisions are and should be the prerogative of the individual and deserve the law’s protection. The United States protects religious freedom in the First Amendment, and religion is quintessentially a choice. We owe the same respect to all members of our communities. We don’t yet know if gender identity emerges from genes, hormones, environmental factors or, most likely, an intricate combination of all these factors and more. It is unlikely that people with a transgender identity simply choose their gender identity, any more than cisgender people do.

    However, it is crucial that associated choices about the expression of gender – affecting vital aspects of identity in school, the workplace, and the community – are supported by our laws and policies. Supporters of transgender rights should avoid arguments that are logically flawed and that fail to acknowledge current scientific evidence about gender identity. Our best arguments must rely on the concept of inalienable human rights, including the rights to live safely, freely, and without fear of discrimination.

  423. Thepnr says:

    @Patrick Roden

    Do you think Labour also have some explaining to do over these companies that share the same directors as 74 year old Ms Leonard?




    A Limited company can be started by anybody for next to nothing, I could start one this week such as the Wings Independence Party Ltd for less than £50.

    Setting up a new ltd company is very easy but a long way away from actually registering a new political party with the Electoral Commission that can stand candidates for election.

    Chasing rainbows is usually a waste of time and energy, so why bother demanding an explanation from Labour when it’s far more likely that it has nothing to do with them and they’ll just laugh.

  424. Stoker says:

    “manandboy” wrote:

    “In every other country, Independence is fiercely defended and protected as an absolute value and an indisputable right. But this clearly is not the case in Scotland.”

    No it certainly isn’t because Scotland’s full of folk like you who constantly help promote our No1 hurdle to independence, the crap spouting BUM. People like you who blame their wives for not being able to ditch the tv licence.

    Saying all the right things on a comment post is one thing but commitment is an entirely different kettle of fish. Until quite a number of folk in Scotland, and that includes you, stop living in LaLaLand and get with the programme we’ll get nowhere.

    This was one of the best threads i’ve seen on Wings for quite some time with lots of great posts & an eager willingness from a lot of folk to discuss a serious matter for the pro-Yes movement. But then you turned up as usual with your OT crap.

    How many monikers is that you’ve got on the go now? How many have you lost on here? I make it 2 on the go & at least 1 lost on here.

    Practically living on ‘The Guardian’ and constantly promoting it is never going to bring us independence so think about that the next time you want to compare Scotland to other countries. We’re cursed with people like you.

    Other countries don’t promote their No1 enemies propaganda platforms and then make all sorts of pathetically leaky excuses for doing so. Other countries don’t help their No1 enemy to crap all over them. But you & many others do & you go on about Scotland not being independent. Hypocrisy doesn’t even begin to cut it.

    Well done to just about everyone who posted comments on this great thread prior to “manandboy” turning up. Thanks Stuart for another great article. Should help a lot more folk understand how that voting system works. Wish WOS was more like this btl more often. First thread i’ve read as far down for a very very long time. Thank you everyone!

    PS, “manandboy” (and any other who thinks the same) i’ve said it before & i’ll say it again. Your counterproductive actions do *not* harm me so if you think you’re getting at me you’re a bigger loser than i already had you for. Your actions help to damage Scotland each & every time you or anyone else promotes a direct link to a BUM rag.

    You are far more interested in trying to attract more people into your sad wee “liberal” playground than anything else. What sort of sad individual wastes their energies arguing/”debating” issues with English based folk pretending to live in Scotland? Or even worse, wasting time “debating” with some twat who’s never been near Scotland in their lifetime.

    The Dead Tree Scrolls’ comment sections are a thing of the past as more & more large news sources ditch them and turn their focus to social media as that’s where the debates are now seen to be. It’s a different way of reeling in the clickbait clowns.

  425. CameronB Brodie says:

    P.S. The full-English Brexit is discrimination on stilts, and completely incompatible with the inalienable human rights of Scots to live safely, freely, and without fear of discrimination.

  426. Dr Jim says:

    I have an SNP member aquaintance who lectures at University I won’t say which one and until I explained what *WOKE* was he’d never heard of it, I asked him what he’d heard about the Gender argument, nothing, was his reply

    The internet is a big place but to many the uses people put it to are not always the same
    A big argument on Twitter quite often never sees the light of day in the offline world unless the telly and newspapers make it so, and at the moment they aren’t

    Like WOS is read by many but digested by fewer and most not at all

    Many voters keep well away from online politics now because of the poisoned atmosphere and inability to discern the truth, even my own children and granddchildren have stopped using it and stick to the social use

    Moderate voters don’t tend to care as much as they did say five years ago about what goes on or what the arguments are on the internet, the MSM have done a reasonable job of rubbishing its credibility, newspapers, although they’re garbage still have more power

  427. Clapper57 says:

    @ manandboy @ 10.35

    Yes but also remember Dominic C the ‘great’ strategist will have drummed into Bojo to play to his Farage…like Trump.

    You are 100% correct his message is not meant to be addressed to all voters…but simply to those who are already converted and confirmed beLEAVERS…keep the momentum going ….Against Brexit? you are called a ("Tractor" - Ed) – Non beLEAVER you are a Remoaner – etc etc…to win they need to ‘other’ people thus sustain the division while still ensuring that THEIR message gets out to those who are already on board. ….

    What we see happening now is a continuation of the original Leave EU campaign…promises that will be easy to break …slogans that will resonate with their target audience….but more importantly they are setting it ALL up to have a patsy take the blame when it fails….collaboration with the EU says Boris..will we see a UK version of the McCarthy trials post Brexit…nothing would surprise me.

    Probably the oldest trick in the political book of tricks but also proving to be a winning formula to keep the ‘following’ onside.

    Warning to all tweeters…last week yon new Brexit party MEP elected in Scotland was tweeting some fairly contentious sheeite and baiting/trolling people who support Independence and/or SNP. He was using the exact same formula…not really engaging with those he was responding to on twitter who opposed him just spouting more contentious anti Indy and anti SNP propaganda ….

    BUT…always ensuring he was getting out the message to his base…thus sustaining his base who he knows respond to this kind of negative trolling of Indy peeps and the SNP. If he was treated as the troll that he most definitely is and ignored… it would seriously damage his opportunity to engage with his followers… not engage…let him piss in the wind with the morons who vote for him.

    Also on Brexit the players hiding in the background have both much to gain and much to lose with Brexit , so Boris knows that his role is to keep the people who have already been convinced on Brexit to start to also beLEAVE the kind of Brexit Boris has been told to promote. Where once it was leaving with a deal…the greedy people behind the scenes who orchestrated this now realise that financially , there could be much more financial gains with a NO Deal Brexit….for THEM…though this was probably the plan all along…hence David Davis and subsequent Brexit ministers always failing but eventually coming up with a deal they knew would be unacceptable…Theresa May just wanted it all over and to remain PM.

    Pity Boris has put the millions of people who voted remain on the back burner…I predict that IMHO history will not be kind to him but you reap what you sow…and too much manure when you sow the seeds of division must eventually start to stink and he will end up as one of the main ones who will smell like sheeite..the scent is already becoming obvious..Lol

    Scotland is now sick of the stench and instead of constantly having to hold our noses we would prefer to permanently remove the stench that is currently generating from WM and move away from the putrid smell that they seem to thrive on…better for Scotland to wake up and smell the roses and not the sheeite that helped them grow …Lol

  428. Marga says:

    In Europe, the Green-European Free Alliance Group (Alyn Smith is First Vice President) is one of the few voices speaking up for Catalan MEPs barred from taking office by Spain on idealogical grounds. Refugees, “disappeared” MEPs, Europe isn’t what it was. Good line in corporativism re. badly behaving states.

    Realise that the Scottish Greens may not be the same material as their EP cousins, but eternally grateful for their solidarity and would be sorry to see them lose seats in Scotland for electoral strategy reasons. Which Stuart has explained and justified, I have to say.

  429. Dr Jim says:

    Today has been the highest recorded Trolling day of the FM
    Sure and certain indication of the fear striking at the hearts of the Yoon

    They know they’re dunfor!

  430. Cactus says:

    Indy’s comin’

  431. Clapper57 says:

    @ Dr Jim @ 11.58pm

    Spot on Dr Jim….when you are seen as insignificant you are ignored..when you are seen as a threat…..well…….they resort to trolling you….even when we leave they will still be at it…Nicola must be saying…infamy infamy..they’ve all got it in for me….

  432. Liz g says:

    Aye Cactus but the immediate question is…
    Are you going???….. Aberdeen that is?

  433. CameronB Brodie says:

    OT re. Dugdale. For someone with a background in social policy, it is disheartening to see her suggest that BLiS__d should be “strong in the support of the Union”. This is clear evidence that she is a British nationalist and points to her intellectual limitations.

    She obviously is not a Scottish patriot and appears to be in denial of the inalienable human rights of Scots. Her loyalty is to herself and the Crown in Westminster, along with the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty. And this numpty has just landed a fat salary to promote political engagement in Scotland. The yoon world-view is irrational and reactionary, of course.

    N.B. Human reason is grounded in self-preservation.

    Peoples’ right to self-determination and self-governance over natural resources: Possible and desirable?

    The article combines Elinor Ostrom’s design principles for common-pool resources and human rights provisions, including subsequent clarifications and jurisprudence. It analyses whether stronger local self-governance, embedded in the natural resource dimension of peoples’ rights to self-determination is a recommendable approach. Two changes in understanding are noted. First, the universal approval of indigenous peoples’ right to self-determination as specified in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. Second, the wide endorsement of the specific principle of free and prior informed consent (FPIC). As the exercise of peoples’ rights to self-determination is done on a collective level, it is important to have awareness of whether particularly affected and marginalized households and individuals are included or not included in the decision-making process. The article then reviews a range of new instruments adopted by the OECD and the UN for improved human rights awareness and compliance in the context of economic investments. The article finds that these instruments are still underutilized. Finally, the article identifies the role of human rights in bilateral investment treaties (BITs). It finds that there are less jurisdictional restrictions – as many treaties have a wide understanding of applicable law – than cognitive restrictions – as human rights competence is rarely sought when establishing tribunals mandated to solve investments disputes.

    bilateral investment treaties, free, prior and informed consent, International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, UN Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights


    When in 1968 Garrett Hardin published his famous article ‘Tragedy of the Commons’ (Hardin 1968), this led to a disregard of collective rights and collective management in economic thinking and property governance for many decades. Actually, what Hardin described in his article was not a commons, rather he described an open access or free-for-all regime (Weston & Bollier 2013: 147). A commons depends on boundaries, rules and a defined community of persons managing the commons. It was through the efforts of the late Ellinor Ostrom that deeper understandings of the many property management systems between individual property and state property were recognized in wider policy circles. In 2009 she received the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.

    The two main human rights covenants, the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR; 167 state parties) and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (ICESCR; 160 state parties), adopted in 1966, recognized collective rights, including rights over natural resources. Both entered into force ten years later. They share a common article on the right to self-determination: Article 1. In a so-called general comment upon Article 1, the United Nations Human Rights Committee, monitoring the implementation of the ICCPR, said: “Its realization is an essential condition for the effective guarantee and observance of individual human rights and for the promotion and strengthening of those rights.” (UN Human Rights Committee 1984: para. 1) The UN Human Rights Committee has stressed that this right cannot be invoked by individuals….

  434. Cactus says:

    Hey Liz, ah wont be in Aberdeen

    We’ll be in the Glasgow studio

    We’re livestreaming

    Will gie ye a shout

  435. Liz g says:

    Hey Cactus
    Mind that ye do xx

  436. SilverDarling says:

    @Dr Jim 11.40 pm

    More patronizing guff. So you have an SNP friend who lectures and is unaware. Well isn’t that amazing?

    I lecture at a University, have family, friends and acquaintances who lecture at universities all over the world. So what? What is your point? That you live in a tiny world where if if it hasn’t reached you and your circle it isn’t important?

    I know women who are afraid to speak out because they will lose their job because of the GRA debate, who cannot teach the truth of their subject without fear of offending the woke brigade, who have to dumb down their arguments because idiot politicians are afraid they will lose votes.

    And then there are the real world physical consequences which if you don’t know by now you aren’t worth bothering with.

    The absolute arrogance of men like you.

    All you have shown is that stupid unaware people like your friend haven’t realised yet how horrendous this whole situation is. Your friend seems as uninformed as the rest of the SNP as to what is happening out there and how angry many women are with them.

    Maybe when the WoS party gives them a kicking at the next election they’ll realise they should have been listening a bit harder.

  437. Breeks says:


    I would hunt down the fker responsible for this and put his leg in a trap until he starved in septic agony and his kids went without food.

    Scotland made an international embarrassment again because of some depraved murderous sicko torturing a fabulous national icon.

    If he’d murdered a child, we’d get whoever did this. These inhuman crimes against our spectacular wildlife are not one off isolated incidents. There is a prevailing attitude that some rural tossers in the countryside can do whatever they like with impunity, and why wouldn’t they when the bestial barbarity is just clearing the pitch for more bestial barbarity passed off as “country sport”.

    It’s well past the time when we as a nation put a permanent end to this obscenity and brought back gruesome medieval punishments for sicko vermin who would do this to any wild animal. If it happens on your land, you’re guilty and your land and estate is on draconian lockdown and is forfeit to the Nation if the real culprit isn’t exposed.

  438. Cactus says:

    Will do Liz

    Any musical requests that ah can put on for ye?

    Aberdeen – March for Independence ’19


  439. Cactus says:

    Hey Rev

    What’s the big idea?

    Aye LOVE it

  440. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Marga @ 23:58,

    Politics is a tough old business, and getting independence even more so, so it’s easy to see the Greens getting caught in the wringer over it. Patrick Harvie is rather inclined to a bit of posturing, which is to some extent understandable because he has to show people that his little outfit is still hangin’ in there. (Even if some of their efforts have seemed to us as somewhat counter-productive; OBFA and splitting the vote against Ruthie in Edinburgh, for example.) So you can easily understand why they in particular would welcome Stu’s proposal with little cheer.

    But they’re in there for the long run and I don’t think they need worry. I’m sure they will prosper in the post-indy climate.

    (Unlike some real losers, if they don’t wise up soon.)

  441. Cactus says:

    Just invented a new word…



  442. Liz g says:

    Silver Darling @ 12.35
    I think you may have misunderstood Silver Darling …
    Dr Jim is no a bigot of any description..
    We ( Dr Jim an I ) have disagreed many times …
    But I’ve never found the Gentleman to be anything other than willing to debate….
    To debate is everything… don’t ye agree??? ??

  443. CameronB Brodie says:

    @Kezia Dugdale
    Some essential knowledge for your new position as a think-tanker charged with fostering political engagement in Scotland, some global political ethics. Fill your boots, (full text).

    Freedom beyond the threshold: self-determination, sovereignty, and global justice

    In current debates about global justice, statist and nationalist theories appeal to the right to self-determination in argument against egalitarianism beyond borders, and in general as a reason for caution about substantive international duties of justice, lest the exercise of self-determination would be too tightly constrained. Has self-determination – an important heritage of decolonization – no longer a role to play in the argument against international inequality and disempowerment?

    In this article, I examine a dominant interpretation of self-determination in the global justice debate, as defended prominently by John Rawls and David Miller and find it wanting. Specifically, two challenges are raised: at the conceptual level this interpretation leaves unclarified the distinction and relationship between sovereignty and self-determination; at the normative level, this interpretation adopts a sufficiency view of international distributive justice that neglects that problem of relative extents and measures of self-determination, beyond the threshold.

    While the article’s argument is mainly of a critical scope, it is suggested that a more robust theoretical account is required of the content of the right of self-determination, and in particular of the freedoms that the right confers to the right-holders in the socioeconomic domains and their extents.

    sovereignty, self-determination, global justice, John Rawls, David Miller, international investment law

  444. Lukas Scholts says:

    Breeks, you seem as sickened by this stuff as I am. Packham is fronting some sort of initiative against grouse shooting and we must do what we can to support him and stop this.

  445. Cubby says:

    Silver Darling@12.35am

    Another hypocritical post Silver Darling. This time you have added a good smattering of your own arrogance as well. Dishing out the personal abuse today in large helpings.

    The point of the new Wings party is not supposed to be to give the SNP a good kicking as you say but to give the Britnats a good kicking. So do you want the SNP to be given a kicking or are you just as stupid as you accuse others of being and don’t understand the “big idea”. So in summary are you stupid or a Britnat supporter. Or both.

    Just to clarify for you this is a personal attack.

  446. Cactus says:

    A fine welcome to all of the new Wingers…

    Pull yerself up a seat

    Up tae like?

  447. Cubby says:

    BBC Newsnight giving no deal Brexit, Andrew Bridgen, and the Tories in general an absolute roasting.

    Meanwhile Corbyn wants all opposition parties to support him becoming a short term leader to stop Brexit, carry out a GE and have a EU ref. Biggest problem he will have is getting his own MPs to support him.

  448. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Cubby @ 01:56,

    Corbyn has never wanted to stop Brexit. If he has rarely been clear about anything much, he has been clear on that, in deed as well as in word. He continues to resist others in his party wanting to move solidly over to Remain, even though it’s costing them votes.

    Just like BoJo he claims he can leave with a better deal.

    Unlike BoJo, the sap may really believe it.

  449. twathater says:

    Silver darling again I concur with LizG’s response I don’t think Dr Jim was rubbishing or ignoring the GRA argument but was merely pointing out that the issue is unfortunately not being reported widely by the MSM so therefore it is not given the prominence or importance it deserves

    But as has been commented on widely in previous postings on this very site if the SNP had not listened and paused the legislation , then we all know the MSM and brit nat parties would have used this legislation to inflame and demonise the SNP female support , just another day at the coal face for the usurpers

  450. Thor says:

    The logic is spot on, but there is already another pro Indy group to vote for- the greens. They’re the reason pro Indy currently have a majority. I’d say a big reason most SNP voters didn’t vote for them was lack of knowledge about the system, something wings has the power and influence to change.

    Wings is v popular with Indy fans obviously, so why not not just endorse the greens and get them more seats, rather than create a new party that splits the regional vote further and threatens the greens, who have done a lot of good in parliament??

  451. twathater says:

    Re the registering of a Scottish labour party , TBH it would not surprise me in the slightest if Richard Leotard was not involved , we all know the desperation liebour wasters have to protect their place at the trough , with the ashcroft poll showing support for indy rising and now Stu proposing a indy regional challenging party they must be bricking themselves at losing their entitled ( in their mind )cushy number , oh tae go back to the days when liebour didnae count the votes they weighed them , ha ha karma

  452. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    twathater @ 02:24,

    I’m still wondering if it’s a pre-emptive strike, if not specifically intended to thwart any possible development, at least to cash-in on a company sale to a putative breakaway from NorthBritLab? Or even to anticipate a change in situation for the party post-indy?

  453. twathater says:

    @ RJS 2.34am agree

  454. John McLeod says:

    It may be a good idea to set up a parallel indepndence party to gain more list seats. But I don’t think its a good idea for Stuart Campbell to lead it. The two recent interviews with him – on the AS show and in the Times – seemed to me to miss the point. These interviewers showed very little interest in the day to day work that Stuart does as a one-person (more or less) rebuttal unit against unionist (and some SNP) nonsense. This is immensely technically skilled work. At the present time, no-one else gets close to his level of rigour in this kind of activity. For a start, he must have an awesomely comprehensive archive of information, video clips, newspaper articles, etc. More than that, he has the political udnerstanding and imagination, and communication skills, to get his ideas across with maximum impact. It would be an enormous loss to the independence movement if this was to be diluted through spending time and energy on setting up a party. In fact, it would be better if the movement could raise funds to pay for people to become apprentices to Stuart, so they could learn how to do what he is able to do, and either expand Wings or set up supplementary sites.

  455. Ken500 says:

    Campaign to change the voting system. The unionists illegally changed it without a mandate. First preference votes go in the bin to let third rare losers in. It is a disgrace. A lot of Mavericks will not help. In fact could hinder the administration. It could become a shambles. Look at Brexit. To stand up to the unionists it has to be a well organised non diversify. The Greens are bad enough. Trying to hold Scotland back.

    Get an SNP majority and change the voting system. One person one vote. Holyrood has the powers. It does not take into account changes in the result of an increase in SNP/Independence support. An electoral Party has to have a manifesto for government. It takes major funding and campaigning. A newly formed Party has non of that and could be a diversion. Campaigning to change the voting system could be much easier. No one understands it. Evans illegally brought it in with no mandate. The council system as well. Anti democratic. The electorate do not even understand it.

  456. Giving Goose says:

    What needs to happen is a mass walk/tresspass/ramble onto grouse moor estates that kill raptors etc.
    Disrupt their economic activity and business model until they start behaving and obeying the law.

  457. Tatu3 says:

    Lukas Scholts – thanks for the link to the petition. I’ve signed. 37,533 votes, still a long way to go. Get signing everybody. Killing for “sport” should never be allowed.

  458. Breeks says:

    Giving Goose says:
    15 August, 2019 at 7:29 am
    What needs to happen is a mass walk/tresspass/ramble onto grouse moor estates that kill raptors etc.
    Disrupt their economic activity and business model until they start behaving and obeying the law…

    No, I like the notion of Scottish Wildlife Protection Officers putting an Estate into lockdown; no fishing, no hunting, no shooting, and no state subsidy, while there’s a painstaking forensic fingertip search for more traps and evidence of illegal activity, and an equally forensic audit of Estate accounts by humourless professional accountants obsessed with minute details – all of which would be made public, every dirty little secret exposed. Failure to comply, or any non-cooperation or disclosure and the estate is by default, forfeit to the Nation for rewilding and restoration of indigenous flora and fauna.

    It’s not just c*!%ts with a shotgun and a pole trap who can be utterly merciless.

  459. katherine hamilton says:

    Morning Breeks,
    I think you may have proposed the new party’s first policy, post Indy and 2021 election! I’m in.

  460. Ken500 says:

    Animals eat animals. Cows are shot and killed. Pigs and chickens meet the same fate. The hypocrisy going around is unbelievable. Everyone is going veggie/vegan. The only ones with any kudos are veggies and electric car users. Everything is changing.

    There are advantages to climate change. Less fuel and energy being used. New trade routes. The changes with renewables being used. The computer model does not take into the equation. Less children being born in industrialised countries. The population will peak and fall once more countries have better healthcare systems. The population is falling in European countries.

  461. Marie Clark says:

    Breeks@ 8.04am, By jings Breeks, that’s a bit severe isn’t it.

    I’m in, something like that is needed to make the beggars comply.
    Well said.

  462. Cactus says:

    77 days to go till no-deal Br UKexit

  463. Capella says:

    @ katherine hamilton – I second that! Protecting Scotland’s wildlife would be a massive vote winner. At the moment, the Scottish Government is waiting, and waiting, and waiting for the Werrity Report to be published. It should have been out months ago but for some reason keeps being delayed. Now it is scheduled to come out in September. Then there will be the long slow process of deciding what to do about it.

    Meanwhile more raptors and other wildlife are killed, often in gruesome ways.

    See the Raptor Persecution website for details.

  464. Ken500 says:

    Illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. Killing and maiming millions worldwide. The worse migration crisis in Europe since 11WW. The Brexit catastrophe ruining the world economy. A GE coming soon which the Tories will lose. SNP/Independence support increasing.

    The trans confusion. It affects a minimal of people. The Scottish Gov was being the Laws into line with international agreements. The totally unnecessary mass hysteria. There have been mixed changing rooms for years. No problems. It helps women and their friends and families access the facilities. Millions of people have been using them for years. No problems. The outrage of people who do not use them on behalf of others who do not use them is staggering.

    It is the mingers who do not use the showers before they swim. It means more chlorine/chemicals in the water. Harmful. The Scottish Gov should make it Law everyone has to shower before getting in the water. Like the Continentals.

  465. sassenach says:

    So Corbyn is now saying that the UK should not refuse a Scottish Indy ref (but he doesn’t support Indy!!!).
    The plates seem to be shifting, not long now.

  466. katherine hamilton says:

    Morning Ken 500
    I’m a raging carnivor, friend This is not about veggie or vegan. We don’t deliberately target our mountain fauna, raptors, hares and so on to eat a burger.
    The shooting is called a sport by it’s supporters and adherents.Ergo it’s for fun.

    It’s not poachers taking one for the pot.

  467. galamcennalath says:

    Media obsessively focusing on small groups of ‘rebel’ Tories. This time it’s those who are trying thwart ‘no deal’.

    Very odd, why aren’t they instead focusing on the majority of backbench Tories who seem quite willing to have their constituents driven over the cliff edge with mad Boris high on an ego trip at the wheel? ‘No deal’ would be a catastrophic event for the vast majority of ordinary folks. Yet the media plays along as if it’s all just political manoeuvring and somehow not relevant to real lives.

    English history will not look back kindly.

    Scottish history will look back and see it all as madness, yes, however it leads to our national deliverance!

  468. Is Ken correct on who to blame the world wide climate catastrophe,

    `It is the mingers who do not use the showers before they swim.`

    someone should tell Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg,could save her a 2 week boat trip to save the planet.

  469. Capella says:

    Ken 500 you are completely mistaken about the “trans confusion” only affecting a minority. It affects all women and girls i.e. 52% of the VOTING public.

    I have never come across a mixed changing room in my life – and I worked for years in facilities with swimming pools and games halls. There was always a strict regime of sex separation in showers, changing rooms and toilets. Had a man ever appeared in the women’s changing rooms I would have been called upon to evict him.

    I don’t know where you have been getting the impression that mixed facilities are common place. I have traveled abroad on many occasions and have never come across mixed changing rooms and toilets in any country I have been in: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, France, Germany, Italy, Egypt, Greece, Hungary and Spain.
    Admittedly, I have never been to the USA.

  470. stu mac says:

    Jim Cuthbert tells the SNP they don’t understand the new tax powers trap:

    I had to read carefully to get the gist of it but I think I got it and it is worrying – another reason to get out of the union.

  471. Capella says:

    Forgot about Belgium, Luxembourg and Switzerland. But no – no mixed changing rooms and toilets there either.

  472. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Mars Bar floating in the pool. Mass hysteria. Worse than a shark.

  473. Capella says:

    I think I can safely add all Moslem countries to the sex separation in toilets and changing rooms regime.

    In some poorer regions such as rural India, women are campaigning to have proper toilet facilities because of the danger of being r***d if they “go into the forest”, especially at night, because of the lack of modern sanitation in homes.

    Sex based human rights are there to protect women from the obvious dangers that only women face. It’s not bigotry, prudery, Jeremy Huntness (copyright Mhairi Black) or right wing religious nuttery to point out the facts based on science and statistics.

  474. Ghillie says:

    John McLeod @ 6.36 am

    Now THAT is a good idea 🙂

    Wings apprenticeships for Forensic Journalism 🙂

    Go have a look folks.

    Rev Stu – you too =)

  475. Heart of Galloway says:

    Not long now until the inmates return to the Westminster madhoose for the final (?) Brexit showdown.

    I see Labour’s Rebecca Long Bailey refused to rule out Jersey Corbyn NOT leading an interim government should a VONC topple BoJo’ and his hirelings.

    It follows Corbyn’s plea to other opposition parties to help bring down Johnson and put in place a short-term Labour-led administration. Another extension of A50 would be sought from the EU pending a GE in which Labour policy would be to offer a second EU vote with remain on the ballot paper.

    I do not believe any of this will happen except rhe GE bit – which Johnson will trigger before Oct 31 with the aim of wiping out Farage’s mob and winning an overall majority to rubber stamp his crash out Brexit.

    Where does Scotland stand in all this? Well, then ScotGov must get its Referendum Bill through parliament and made law asap. It cannot afford to be gazumped by Westminster subterfuge as they were over the Continuity Bill.

    Doing this is of critical importance – because I would put absolutely nothing past Johnson’s odious crew and Lackey Jack in Scotland in deciding tactics designed to suffocate Scottish independence before it is even born.


  476. Eric Sinclair says:

    Instead of all this maths and arithmetic, why not just prepare an understandable, coherent case for independence. That would be the honest way to proceed.

  477. Old Pete says:

    Joe Swansong taking total nonsense on the TV just now.
    We need a general election asp with the SNP standing on declaring Independence for Scotland if they win a majority of Scottish MP’s.
    This is an opportunity for the SNP, they need to act and take it.

  478. Mac says:

    Stu … Can you tell me what I need to change in my post? @3:11pm yesterday.

    It’s still in moderation

  479. Mac says:

    Is it the links or the length??

  480. Old Pete says:

    Joe Swansong talking total rubbish,

  481. Ken500 says:

    There have been mixed changing rooms in facilities for years. It helps women their families and friends to access the facilities. Women use them every day. Millions of them. The British outrage to the human body. The outrage of people who do not use the facilities on behalf of others who do not use them. If they did use them they would see there are absolutely no problems. It is just unbelievable. Just old fashioned.

    Women are safer in open facilities. There are cameras on entrances and on the pool. Staff all over the place with open access. Women are more likely to be attacked in non staffed separate facilities.

  482. Ken500 says:

    There are mixed changing room all over the place. Mainly in more recent facilities. Hotels and health clubs often have separate men and women’s and a mixed family changing facilities. Some people should get out more.

  483. Capella says:

    @ Mac – contact Stu via the CONTACT tab at the top of the page. You may have used a “banned” word which blocks the post. I used gr*pevine recently which contains a banned word so it never appeared. Sometimes I go back and correct the banned word and repost. But if time has lapsed there isn’t a lot of point.

    You could repost on this thread if you can spot the offending word. Or remove the http:// before any youtube address.

  484. Clootie says:

    @Ken 500

    Ken where are all these mixed changing rooms that millions have been using?.
    Can you provide some examples as I am struggling to think of an example. I have seen one location with totally enclosed individual booths with an attendant on duty in the central area.

    Men have been sharing facilities for years and do not often appreciate female concerns.

    As with the quiz show “name them!”
    Remember your statement “millions have been using them for years”

  485. Ken500 says:

    There are mixed changing rooms. Open facilities. In the Aberdeen Beach Leisure. The Village Leisure facilities. The Village Hotel facilities. All the modern facilities. With separate cubicles. Some people should get out more. Even the old Beach Baths had open changing facilities. Cubicles around the pool. Mixed changing facilities.

  486. Reluctant Nationalist says:

    Oh god the SNP really have given you the big wink to go all the way with this tranny thing haven’t they. Lol, whatever it takes.

  487. Capella says:

    @ Ken500 the data says otherwise. Women are more at risk of attack in mixed sex facilities.

    The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

    Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

    What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.
    Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

  488. greygull says:


    I think what Ken500 means is the types of changing rooms where there are separate cubicles and maybe an open shower area. That’s what we have in our local swimming pool. There are also a couple of cubicles that are slightly larger to deal with families or folks in wheelchairs. Nobody is meant to strip off in public. Showers are taken with your swimsuit on.

  489. Ghillie says:

    Grouse shooting = shooting fish in a barrel.

    If one is a devotee of blood sports (oh yuk spit an infinite times over!) then how can this be a sport?

    I want to see an immediate, or sooner, ban on grouse shooting (actually, ALL blood sports) in Scotland for many many reasons.

    Presumably those moors will turn to another function such as being allowed to reforest by fencing out the sheep and deer. Jobs do not need to be lost.

    I appreciate there are skilled ghillies (nothing to do with my given name!) who will still be needed for knowing the lie of the land, tracking and aiding, and indeed killing, injured beasts and supporting the hunting of a singular animal for the pot. (If you are going to eat meat then get out there and see and feel what it is really like to end a life)

    Dreadful crimes ARE, I believe, being committed by personnel from the grouse shooting estates. The police know it but have difficulty proving it.

    Maybe the way forward is to hit them in the pocketbook as the Americans say. Tax the sport heavily and discourage, actually illegalise, the burning of heather to prepare the site for the grouse. So many reasons for that! (Having been caught with some other motorists on a stretch of road in Sutherland while a muirburn was going out of control, I do appreciate how flaming fucking stupidly dangerous this practice is!)

    Yes, I am 100% behind Mr Packham (and other dedicated folk) and his campaign.

    Ken500, there are so many many horrible atrocities currently happening that must be stopped. Working on any of them is a start. You have so much passion and care so much. Thank you =)

    Yes, so many policies to throw at our new Indy Parliament! They will truly earn every penny (many do already) when Scotland is Independent!

    We have sooo much work to do!! 🙂

    Realised that I skip past the GAINING Indy thing most days because I so believe in it, and now mostly go straight to all the brilliant things we, here in Scotland, are going to do 🙂

  490. Ken500 says:

    How many assaults take place in mixed changing room. Numbers. There are more assault % elsewhere. People are more likely to be hurt in accidents in toilets. Accidentally hurt. 10,000.

    Can’t even find any figures for assaults in mixed changing rooms. 134 reports? Is that nationwide. Out of 62Million people?

    How many reports have there been of assaults in mixed changing room in facilities in Aberdeen. Never heard of any.

  491. Hackalumpoff says:

    See Nana’s updated links here:

  492. Lenny Hartley says:

    Ken500 you dont get it do you. The Msm have been very quiet on the SNP infighting over the gender recognition issue, why do you think that is? Prepare for a shitstorm at a time of their choosing with lurid headlines stating that the SNP are allowing Paedophiles and Perverte into Woman only safe areas , toilets etc. How many Woman will vote for the SNP then? If you have learned anything from Wos its that its the Headlines Stupid.

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