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The diverging path

Posted on April 17, 2016 by

The Sunday Herald, which enjoyed a major sales boost from being the first Scottish newspaper to officially back independence but has since seen its circulation increase partly eroded, has this morning chosen to throw a stick of dynamite onto the fire.


The paper’s front page today teases a double-page spread inside with the headline “SPECIAL REPORT: HOW INDEPENDENCE SUPPORTERS SHOULD USE THEIR SECOND VOTE”. And then things get a little strange.

While the headline suggests that the paper itself has commissioned said report, the first noteworthy fact in the subsequent article is that it’s done no such thing. The story actually refers to a study paid for by Electoral Reform Scotland, of whom more in a moment. It opens with an unequivocal statement:


But readers will search the piece in vain for Prof. Curtice actually saying such thing. Indeed, it’s remarkably short on any direct quotes from him at all.

To hear straight from the horse’s mouth we have to look to a separate article, in which Curtice (talking about a scenario where the SNP sweep all but two constituencies and get almost no list seats) says something a very great deal more ambiguous:


What Curtice actually says is that some people have speculated that nationalists might be wise to use the second vote tactically. That’s an ENORMOUS distance from “Professor John Curtice says Yes voters should instead give their backing to another pro-independence party”, and we can’t imagine that Prof. Curtice will be too delighted about having those words put in his mouth.

(It’s perhaps worth observing that on the Herald’s website the main article has the title “Revealed: How Scottish independence supporters should use their votes on May 5”. But on the site’s front page the piece is advertised with the rather less committal New study claims: independence supporters should not cast second vote for SNP at Holyrood election”. Our emphasis.)

The second article also attempts to back up the assertion with this passage:


But that’s one hell of a big “if”. According to Professor Curtice’s report, on current list polling if the SNP get 100,000 votes Labour will get not 80,000 but just 41,000. (The Nats are averaging 46% on the list to Labour’s 19%, more than twice as much.) On the present polling averages Labour will get three list seats if the Nats sweep all the constituency seats, not all seven.


Both articles, interestingly, are by “Group Investigations Writer” Peter Swindon, who was formerly a Parliamentary assistant to Labour MP Anas Sarwar.


The spread in the print edition is completed by an Iain Macwhirter column entitled “The key to healthy Scottish politics: diversity not monopoly”, a title which readers might reasonably conclude was also an argument against an SNP majority, despite the fact that it admits:

“There might not have been a referendum if the d’Hondt (list system) had worked perfectly, because the SNP might not have reached the magic 65 seats. This is why supporters of the SNP insist that a second SNP vote is never wasted.

If, in 2011, all those list votes had gone to little parties, and none of them had reached the 6% threshold, then Labour might have got back in the game.”

(Macwhirter, a federalist who reluctantly backed independence as a least-worst option over the status quo, also specifically dismisses this site as an “SNP loyalist” one, which – speaking as someone who’s never been a member of the SNP, never voted for them and never told anyone else to vote for them – is a little disappointing.)

Finally, the Herald website also carries a story by Tom Gordon titled “SNP failing to make winning case for independence, warn RISE”, for any remaining readers who hadn’t yet got the message.

The paper’s coverage of Curtice’s report, then, is unarguably distorted. But what of the report itself? As noted above, it was commissioned and paid for by Electoral Reform Scotland, whose website provides bios for its three main officers:


And the first two of those are pretty interesting.

Willie Sullivan is quoted directly in the main Herald story:


So the report was produced for an organisation which openly states that it doesn’t want one party to dominate Scottish politics, from which it might reasonably be presumed that it would prefer the SNP not to have a majority.

We can also fairly surmise that Willie Sullivan himself almost certainly doesn’t want that, because until 2012 he was a Scottish Labour councillor.



Rory Scothorne, meanwhile, may be familiar to readers as one of the founders of the virulently anti-SNP website “Mair Nor A Roch Wind”.


If Scothorne didn’t exist, readers might well take him for some sort of satirist’s idea of a comedy student Marxist. This extract comes from the last article he penned for the site before joining ERS:


MNARW advocated independence as a means of destroying the SNP and bringing about a worldwide revolution of the proletariat. And if you think we’re exaggerating, here’s Scothorne again in a piece written a week before the independence referendum, outlining his goals for a Yes vote:

Independence is won, and the SNP form a minority or coalition government in 2016. They deliver on several of their “progressive” promises, but vocal criticism from a small but not insignificant left bloc, on the streets as well as in parliament, helps to foster widespread disappointment with the first years of independence. The vicissitudes of currency union demand cuts in some areas, and the left leads demands for an independent currency and opposition to cuts.

When global economic turbulence hits the Scottish economy just as it is regaining its balance, a coalition of Labour and the radical left surges into power on the back of mass protests demanding that the promise of independence be fulfilled. This coalition hands immense power to the labour movement and encourages the ongoing formation of people’s assemblies across the country, while nationalising industry and infrastructure and withdrawing from NATO.

Continuing economic instability damages the Labour-led government’s credibility, but its mass extra-parliamentary base pulls politics further leftwards, much to the horror of right-wing commentators at home and around the globe. The Scotsman churns out red-baiting editorials about “the enemy within,” while The Times scoffs about the “failure” of independence as inequality plummets, capital controls come into force and top rates of tax soar.

As continuing global turbulence thrusts the left into power across Europe and the US, Scotland’s socialists are ready and willing to join – even inspire – an international wave of strikes, nationalisations and occupations which mark a decisive step towards a profound transformation of the global system.”

 Other articles on the site were equally explicit, like this from 24 September 2014:

A Labour majority at Westminster will be the best result for Scotland because it is the only feasible way for Scottish working class interests to be reflected in a Westminster government.

Last night I attended a meeting called by Glasgow West Radical Independence to discuss where the organisation should go. Many of the speeches focussed on opposing Labour, instead of talking about renewed demands for power or policies that would bring us closer to the aspirations we had for independence.

Some are reluctant to work with trade unions and trades unionists which are affiliated to Labour, whereas they should be looking to the likes of Unite and Unison, as well as the STUC, to lead a demand for meaningful economic power. They are gleeful about the SNP’s surging membership, when they should be making plans to unseat its members in 2016.”

But even Radical Independence aren’t radical enough for MNARW:

“RIC might all too easily slot itself into the ongoing movement for independence. If it does so, then it is a useless vehicle for the left, it will burn up the fuel of support it has worked hard to win, and, in short, it should be criticized, attacked, resisted and undermined.”

So in short: two people violently opposed to an SNP majority, and indeed to the SNP in general, have commissioned a report with the aim of convincing people not to vote for the SNP, a conclusion which the Sunday Herald has – for reasons known only to itself – actively and vigorously decided to misrepresent as being the personal opinion of Professor John Curtice.

As ever, this site will not tell anyone how to vote. We’ll leave readers to arrive at their own views on ERS Scotland and the Herald’s attempts to do so.

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  1. 17 04 16 10:56

    The diverging path | speymouth

  2. 18 04 16 13:49

    Every Vote Counts | A Wilderness of Peace

203 to “The diverging path”

  1. Grouse Beater says:

    Good old British press – it always reverts to type.

    An excellent expose of the vacillating Sunday Herald, from Wings! (And there’s nothing sexual about that!)

  2. Ken500 says:

    A bunch of bampots

    The English working class vote Tory and UKIP. The Unions support £170Billion spent on Trident.

    The Unionists want to tax Scotland more to pay for Westminster policies. Trident/illegal wars, tax evasion and banking fraud. Westminster could just close Tax Havens set up by Thatcher.

  3. Sunday Herald suicide.

    How stupid of them to waste their only advantage in the rapidly diminishing market.

    On their own heads be it.

  4. Andrew Smith says:

    The enemy within, indeed!

  5. thomaspotter2014 says:

    The fear and loathing of the Establishment crew has led them to drop any pretence and are now showing their sinister side.

    The indy friendly mask isn’t so much slipping as been ripped off to reveal the depth of their poisonous reach.

    Sunday Herald was always dodgy like Dave.

    Begs the question of how long before the National is skewed.

    Times running out and all the stops are being pulled.

    They’re really bricking it.


  6. Giesabrek says:

    I am disappointed to see the Sunday Herald stoop to such low levels, and I believe the latest in a number of questionable articles.

    It seems that the unionists have infiltrated, or were already present, in their Trojan horse waiting for the moment to start denigrating and dividing the independence movement. It’s a shame for those at the newspaper who genuinely backed independence.

    I’m now just counting down the days until the National does the same because it will come. After all, every single newspaper in Scotland is owned by a unionist.

  7. mogabee says:

    Thousand thanks Stu for this. I have been on the verge of stopping my order of Sunday Herald for a few weeks now but held off due to a feeling of some loyalty to it’s editor.

    Well, I’m doing it today…

  8. True colours will always come out. Stopped buying it a while ago and it allowed me to contribute to your funding Rev. Keep up the good work so we can all share the truth.

    Thank you


  9. Bob Mack says:

    As the election looms large, then allegiances will come to the fore. I have always had doubts about the Sunday Herald and now I know why.

    I should not be surprised that they have adopted the mantle of what is lazy journalism at best, but agent provocateur at worst.

    The bottom line is that NO printed mainstream media is supportive of independence

    The best way to disrupt anything is by claiming to be a part of it whilst working to destroy it from the “inside”.

    That fits the Sunday Herald.

    Thank you again Rev. You are the only journalist I take seriously these days.

  10. John says:

    Good old Herald ,you can always depend on it to come up with something to do down the SNP . Divide and rule is the name of the game for Scotland’s MSM .

  11. Susan Macdiarmid says:

    ‘Twas ever thus in the extremities of leftness. The more they talk about ‘the people’ the more certain you can be they think they are the vessel of the big important idea and therefore above ‘the people’ Or, at least, anyone who dares to disagree. Too many big egos their own wee tiny platforms. A bit like a raft race turned into a rammy.
    Gave up on the Sinday Herald some time ago. How is their circulation now?

  12. David Mills says:

    Interesting Duncan Hothersall sighted long standing connection to this group a few months ago when I question labour calls for electoral reform post May 2015 I thought Labour had purged them selfs of the beyond Socialist type I guess the enemy of my enemy….
    Shame that the don’t appear to see the resurgence Tories as enemy.

  13. heedtracker says:

    Well well. Journalism meets propaganda.

    National’s been boosting RISE all along but it was pretty clear why. They should have at least said that this Sullivan dude’s SLabour ex councillor. Should be really interesting if this works but Ian MacWhirter really detests YES voters, as he explained a couple of weeks ago

    “Of course, for many in the SNP, social justice always came second to national “liberation” from the English yoke. For the “45” nationalists, it is about identity and ethnic mythology. But for most Scots, who have never felt oppressed by England, do not want separation and were motivated to vote for Ms Sturgeon because of her social democratic principles, this is a wake-up call.”

  14. gordoz says:

    Thought the S Herald at least was impartial … Doh!

    There goes that idea, back in the paddock with the rest of the Unionist press (they are sneaky though eh ?)

  15. davidb says:

    Phew, I’m glad I don’t need to worry about things like this. I postal voted on Thursday.

    Both votes SNP.

  16. Topher Dawson says:

    If you read the original report

    you will see that Curtice has been badly reported in the papers, nothing new there. He describes the polling situation and the AMS system.

    He shows the possible/likely results in the constituency seats if current polling is accurate. He says that Labour are fighting the Tories for the votes of No voters, since they have lost Yes voters.

    He points out that there is a dilemma for pro independence voters; whether to vote SNP twice and risk not getting any seats because of the arithmetic of the D’Hondt system thus letting in a unionist, or whether to vote for a smaller pro indy party and risk it not getting past the 6% barrier needed for even one list seat.

    Curtice presents this dilemma neutrally and does not advise pro independence voters which way to vote on the list vote, despite what the papers say.

    I’m a Green, I’ll be voting SNP in the first vote and would just say that RISE are a long way below the 6% barrier so are likely to be a wasted vote. The Greens are above the 6% so environmental voters can vote for independence without wasting their vote.

  17. Effijy says:

    We don’t need I told you so, but!

    The core of every UK newspaper is to control the information fed to the general public, in order to keep the order where the owners other interests stable.

    Non Dom Tax Haven blessed mega rich who have our politicians in their pocket and the electorate on their knees quacking with fear.

    You buy any UK newspaper, Sky TV package, advertise on any Radio Station and you are donating to their cause.

    I have a quick look at other people’s newspapers and it actually makes me sick to read the lies and deceit that
    Joe Public seems to ingest without question or doubt.

    I have been subjected to a glimpse of today’s Sunday Redcoat Labour edition on PFI.

    Initially I was shocked that they made a link between both evils, PFI, and Labour, but they then go on to deliver statements, part-statements with figures that don’t deliver the true bottom line.

    You guessed it, It is SNP Bad as they should have stopped Jack McConnell returning Scotland’s £1.5 Billion to Westminster, which could have paid for these schools, SNP
    should have forced extra inspection on these schools even though Slab and Edinburgh Labour Council excused these basic necessities. Later inspections fell short because SNP
    checks used people who did not have X-Ray Specs?

    They then go on to skew figures that show SNP signing off
    some of these “Pay Day Loan” deals in order to reduce the
    interest that we were committed to.
    The beyond the Sunday Pail of course only show what the project would have actually cost, if alternative funding was used, and the very large sum that SNP paid to get out of it. They seem to have forgot how to show how much that early settlement of Labour’s agreement has actually saved Scotland.

    Another pop is made at SNP for the wonderful motorway projects that are already in place and are under construction. These projects apparently cost! Shock horror.

    The new M74 has certainly made my commuting so very much easier saving me time and fuel costs, and therefore I suggest do the same thing for Scotland’s commerce.

    These Rags exist only to Lie to you on behalf of the rich

    Point 2, if wee Ruth Krankie really did want to beat Labour in these elections, why does she and her party let Labour off with this National Scandal?
    IMO they recognise that Labour is now too Wee, Too Stupid, and Too Poor to do them any harm.

    Anyway,they can manipulate them at will, and their policies are all pretty much the same.

    Point 3, if Labour had just one ounce of decency among them, they would crucify Gordon Brown and McConnell for their abuse of their powers in setting up this financial crisis.
    Put your hands up and recognise the damage that your party has done, apologise, and pledge never to consider schemes like this again.

  18. One_Scot says:

    Everyone knows that the Yoons are desperate for the SNP to lose their majority in Holyrood.

    I genuinely do not believe any Independence supporters are stupid enough to waste their second SNP vote based on what Yoon trolls or the Yoon media says.

  19. Grouse Beater says:

    Forget the empty slogan: “Nationalism is a virus”.

    Repeat the slogan that helps secure self-governance:

    Both votes for the SNP.

    If you don’t do that we’re liable to get more of this:

  20. DerekM says:

    An SNP loyalist website ??

    I am deeply offended by that comment,no Iain we are not we are independence loyalists get your facts correct,just because you are still torn between your loyalty to Labour and independence does not mean the rest of us old labour are so indecisive.

    What you think all those years fighting inside red tory land to get our damn parliament back we were just going to sit back and let the tory yoon scum inside Labour run it,i dont bloody think so.

    Get off your knees man this is not the SNP that is doing this its us the people, the SNP are only the benifactors of our movement they were smart enough to understand and listen to what we want from our politicians.

    And they are also under the most scrutiny any government has ever been in this island because unlike before this time the bosses are watching and we are watching you shower of fuckwit journalists as well and we are really pissed off.

  21. heedtracker says:

    Topher Dawson says:
    17 April, 2016 at 10:05 am
    If you read the original report

    He points out that there is a dilemma for pro independence voters; whether to vote SNP twice and risk not getting any seats”

    What he’s not doing is making perfectly clear that SNP x 2 is just as much an option as any other. Its a clear deliberate attempt at NOT saying you can vote SNP x2 and that the two votes are actually for separate parties. Real cunning.

    Why are you Green by the way?

  22. TD says:

    I for one will no longer seek out the Sunday Herald. Their credentials were always suspect – sister paper of the Herald – but now I think their cover is blown. They sneakily tried to position this as an article aimed at increasing the likelihood of independence, knowing full well that its intent was to undermine the SNP and thus reduce the likelihood of independence. They have obviously learnt from big sister.

  23. SteveW says:

    This does seem strange on the face of it. Have the SH decided that they can’t keep up the Indy support pretence for much longer?
    Maybe they are hoping that the SNP don’t get a majority and so no indyref2 mandate.
    If Indy is off the table, the SH can then slope back to their old form.
    I have a funny feeling that their subscription cancellation counter might be ticking onwards and upwards today.

  24. schrodingers cat says:

    Topher Dawson

    if you believe in tactical voting and live in the south or highland region it must be snp1&2

    i live in fife&mid and have already voted snp1green2

  25. Fergus Green says:

    Is there any way Wings could have an interview with John Curtice, or even invite him to pen a guest article on this episode?

  26. Effijy says:

    My apologies for the dreadful grammar and syntax above.
    Being male, I should have know that I could not cope with
    a phone call and a post at the same time.

    Old topic, but how I’d love to see some Billboards with
    the benefits of using both votes for SNP.
    Most people I question on this think they need 1 party per vote. The media won’t be correcting them any time soon.

    I’d also love to see Billboards with details of the True relationship between Labour and PFI costs.
    We still have some many people believing UK Media’s version

  27. Alwi says:

    And here was me about to renew my online subscription too…. Idiots. is this anything to do with the change of editor recently?

  28. ailsa craig says:

    Oddly enough, switched on the radio just after 9am to hear Euan McColm review the SH with a comment about ‘bigging up PFI and trying to pin the blame on Jack McConnell’ and Gillian Someone, a lawyer, replying that ‘it was all hypocrisy as the SNP were doing exactly the same and the report was all part of the SH’s agenda…… and we all know what that is…’ [snigger]

    Subject then dropped. Move on. Herald beyond the pale, biased.

    Just as they did with the Forth Road Bridge. Not. Good old Radio Shortbread. What a bunch. It is a strange world indeed in the media.

  29. heedtracker says:

    Rory has it sorted. He’s been a “Parliamentary intern for a member of Scottish parliament” but we wont say which one as that might give the game away.


  30. galamcennalath says:

    I will be voting SNP+SNP.

    My reasoning is that polls are frequently wrong and the SNP may not take quite as many contituencies as people seem to expect. In this case it will be like 2011 and lost seats will be required. I’m opting for the safe option, I think.

    However, I do accept there is a case, in some regions, for SNP+Green. If you believe the polls, and you believe the SNP can take enough constituencies, then Greens may take seats from Unionists.

    This does all hinge on how well the SNP do on constituencies. It’s a gamble.

    One thing I am crystal clear on, SNP+Rise is a complete waste of second vote.

    So, in that respect, I see only anti SNP mischief making highlighted in the article above.

  31. schrodingers cat says:

    heedtracker says:

    Why are you Green by the way?

    maybe he is a yes supporter who prefers a green msp to a red/blue tory msp


  32. muttley79 says:

    Since Richard Walker left the Sunday Herald has gone downhill. I thought Neil Mackay was sincere so I don`t really know what has happened there. They still have Tom Gordon and his sidekick there. Iain Macwhirter did very well from the referendum in terms of flogging his books. But he a unionist at heart and has returned to the fold. The MNARW website is absolutely mental, they used to say they were communists, but they basically supported even New Labour, make of that what you will. The ginger haired guy is a complete chancer, he will probably end up a stock broker/estate agent type or something like that. Some ego there. Not to be trusted.

  33. bjsalba says:

    Gave up on the SH months ago. No reason to change.

  34. gus1940 says:

    Like others commenting above I have always had my doubts about the Sunday Herald’s committment to Independence suspecting that it would turn out to be a Trojan Horse working for our colonial masters.

    One only has to ask what the motives are behind a paper whichdoes WM’s work for them tries to reduce the SNP vote in their desperation to deny us a second SNP majority government and the chance of REF2.

    It is a classic example of that old trick Divide and Rule and little, if any, desire for a bit of variety in those sitting at Holyrood supporting Independence.

    The only sure route to an SNP majority next month is SNP2.

    Once we have our Independence I would have no objections to the rise of multiple parties and as many people believe The SNP,as a party supported by those on all sides of the political spectrum, would almost certainly split.

    While I still feel that The National is sincere in its support for Independence it does concern me that it is full of articles and letters supporting the other supposedly Indy supporting parties in particular RISE.

  35. schrodingers cat says:

    interesting, the greens will campaign for yes in indyref2

    “Citizens as legislators
    . Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence. ”

  36. HandandShrimp says:

    On the plus side the Sunday Herald’s front page is a cracker and no amount of waffle from whoever was commenting with McColm can alter that 🙂

  37. One_Scot says:

    It does seem like a new low though, to tell the public you support Independence and to then go on to tell Independence supporters not to vote for the SNP.

    The Yoons know if the SNP do not get a majority they will be a busted flush. They will do and say anything to achieve this.

    It is imperative we vote SNP x 2, or we will never hear the end of Macwhirters ‘the honeymoon is over’, and you know what, he might actually be right this time.

  38. Cath says:

    In some ways the 2016 election could be win/win for independence supporters. If the SNP do get another majority, that would obviously be best for Scotland and for the independence cause. But if they don’t – if, say, they have overwhelmingly more MSPs than any other party, but a unionist alliance of Labour-Tory-Lib Dem could outvote them, it could be interesting to see what said unionist alliance actually looks like. My guess is it wouldn’t look pretty and might wake up a few remaining no voters to reality. It was that scenario in 2007-11 which turned off enough people to give the SNP a full majority in 2011. I suspect if they lost that majority to the same Westminster coalition, a lot of people (people like McWhirter included) would realise too late just how bad that really was, and probably a lot of pro-union Labour types in particular might also realise too late just what a unionist coalition with the Tories would entail and how it would make them look.

  39. gerry parker says:

    David B at 10:04.

    I wonder if Ruthie has “sampled” them yet?

    I agree with Mc Whirter that diversity is needed, but until we have an independent country, this diversity he calls for is only another cover for divide and rule.

    Independence first, SNP x 2.

    Then diversity.

  40. The Isolator says:

    Quelle fuckin surprise.

    I really, really hate these bassas.

    SNP x 2

  41. carjamtic says:

    Oh,how they wish everything would return to the way it was before,those halcyon days,when everything was viewed/reported/unquestioned,through Yoon tinted media glasses,when people were less informed,less educated.

    As little as four decades ago,they proudly held the ‘moral high ground’,the bragging rights on all that was good,all that they had achieved.

    Thatcher,Blair,Brown,Cameron,MSM,BBC are all linked and are as one,now hated in equal measure,they have done more damage to their parties,to themselves,to Scotland,than any opposition party could ever dream of.

    Exposed as corrupted,thieves and liars,they are now bang to rights in Scotland,not to be trusted ever again,the exposures,as new stories break,continue each one more shocking than the last.

    The MSM/BBC continue their attempts to lie/spin/distort the reported stories,but thanks to WoS and others,they are now being held to account,thanks Rev.

  42. HandandShrimp says:

    What was the Times poll that McColm referred to? A subset of a UK poll? He seemed to indicate that the Tories and Labour are neck and neck.

  43. Auld Rock says:

    We don’t get to read our Sunday’s until after 3PM so I’ll reserve judgement until then. But as I got my postal vote yesterday I’ve voted SNP x 2.

  44. Lollysmum says:

    From the Rancid-Kevin McKenna-Politics is alive & well & living in Scotland. Lots of vitriol below the line by self styled experts who clearly know nothing.

  45. call me dave says:

    Well they made a right ERS of that then.

    Prof Curtis misquoted.

    Scot goes Pop article worth a read.

    SNP x 2

  46. thomaspotter2014 says:

    The billboards need to go up now saying

    VOTE SNP 1+2.

    Sorry Schrodingers Cat, too much confusion to be deviating for Green or Rise-able.

    They’re showing now that Independence is not a priority so hell mend them.

    No more Mr. Nice Guy and they can GTF.

  47. Doug Daniel says:
    Highlands and Islands

    John Finnie
    Isla O’Reilly
    Fabio Villani
    Ariane Burgess
    Stephen Sankey
    Anne Thomas
    Donnie Macleod
    Michelle Rhodius
    Topher Dawson

  48. Capella says:

    James Kelly, Scotland’s best psephologist, is on the case.

    WoS provides a superb analysis as usual. It’s a pity Macwhirter is so compromised as he would otherwise be quite a good writer. Sad.
    The battle lines are certainly forming.

  49. Ronnie Boyd says:

    Sad to read this, yet another BritNat media attack on the SNP and the dream of an independent Scotland.

    Amazing though that the Sunday Herald thinks it can get away with such disgracefully deceitful journalism without this site or one of the other excellent pro-independence sites tearing it apart.

    Perhaps though they know that there are folk who will read such a piece and think, ‘My goodness, I better not give the SNP my second vote! Thank goodness the Herald alerted me to this! That was a close shave! Mildred, wait til you hear this…’

    Excellent piece of analysis from Campbell. As an aside, I find Campbell quite painful at times (his obsession with RFC, etc) but if I was rich I’d donate all the money he needed to get the content of this site broadcast to the people of Scotland. Pity he doesn’t have a genuinely wealthy backer.

  50. winifred mccartney says:

    I hope Prof Curtise is as mad as I am – I’m raging and just bought LAST SUNDAY HERALD EVER.

  51. caledonia says:

    Thinking of stopping the Herald now as it seems to have an agenda this last few weeks.

    On a side note i hear a lot of people here saying they are voting out to stick one on Cameron

    Also cant verify this but someone i know said they were told at the door by a Labour canvaser that if they want to vote out they have to vote labour and not the snp
    Seems like they are trying to mix brexit and the scottish elections together

  52. Marcia says:

    Naughty Sunday Herald.

    Latest poll figures;


    SNP 47 (-1)
    CON 19 (+2)
    LAB 18 (-1)
    GREENS 8 (+3)
    LIB DEMS 4 (-3)


    SNP 51 (+1)
    LAB 19 (-2);
    CON 18 (+1)
    LIB DEMS 5 (-1)

  53. Ken500 says:

    @ Doug Daniel 10.47 am


  54. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “We don’t get to read our Sunday’s until after 3PM so I’ll reserve judgement until then. But as I got my postal vote yesterday I’ve voted SNP x 2.

    Auld Rock”

    That’s all very well, but if you keep signing your posts I’m going to vote HIT YOU WITH A HAMMER X 2.

    Seriously, from now on people get one warning then they’re going on pre-moderation. WE CAN SEE YOUR BLOODY NAME AT THE LEFT-HAND SIDE OF YOUR POST. WE DON’T NEED IT AT THE BOTTOM AS WELL.

  55. heedtracker says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    17 April, 2016 at 10:32 am
    heedtracker says:

    Why are you Green by the way?

    maybe he is a yes supporter who prefers a green msp to a red/blue tory msp


    I don’t know yet!

    I’m also looking at my postal vote. Green’s are tories though, nice ones. Like what LibDems are, except they are ofcourse hard core grand olde tories:D

    I voted LidDem in West Aberdeen once or twice, Nicol Steven, before voting for Dame Anne Begg’s wonder years, just the once, illegal wars on people in hot places that could never strike back could they Slab, you deranged maniacs… anyhoo W. Aberdeen was tory so LibDem seemed like a vote for at least some progressive liberal changee stuff.

    Complete and utter toryboy bullshit ofcourse.

    LibDem’s turned into what? coalition UKOK toryboy henchmen, the historic disgrace that was. Then their next historic disgrace that is Carmicheal, and ofcourse Nicol Steven turned out to be a ferocious NO Lord Nicol Steven, Baron Stephen, or just one more tory bullshitter.

    wiki says

    “On 2 February 2011, he was created a life peer as Baron Stephen, of Lower Deeside in the City of Aberdeen,[14] and was introduced in the House of Lords on 7 February 2011,[15] where he sits on the Liberal Democrat benches. He said he will use his new position to help reform the House of Lords.”

    Help reform the Lords, by feeding at the trough, monstering actual reform, like voting YES, how frightfully tory of him.

    LibDem and Green, twa cheeks of the same UKOK tory airse.

  56. Lenny Hartley says:

    down at Scarborough for the bike racing. Had my customary 30 min argument with tory landlord about Scotland being too wee/poor but not stupid to be independent. Aint spoken with anybody yet thats for remain in the eu. Plenty wanting to leave so they can stop Johnny Foreigner in and make Britain great again.

    Glad i can’t get a Sunday Herald, recently i have been buying out of habit , hardly reading it, so will be saving £1.70 a week now….

  57. bobajock says:

    Odd, the Sunday Herald nailed the cost of Labours PFI, but diluted it somewhat with this.

    SNPx2 is my only hope of ever getting independence, thereafter things will change and without unionist idiots, we can choose a better path while in full control.

  58. pussy nancy says:

    SNP x 2 was asked for at Conference was it not? They wouldn’t ask for something which could potentially harm their majority.

    We should hold our nerve and vote SNP x 2. Sod the Media.

  59. heedtracker says:

    CON 19 (+2)
    LAB 18 (-1)

    Holy shit. Prof Poultice waffling at ligger Neil BBC style just there, explaining why YES votes will vote SNP but Prof skips over blue tory taking second place from red tory.

    Funny that.

  60. HS is now a football comic. A Ranjurs and Cellick mag.
    I stopped taking the HS after 50 years. It is crap journalism, endov.
    MacWhirter has reverted to type.
    SNP x2.
    Why the feck would I vote for any of the others, if I do not endorse their policies?
    Independence first, then diversity, Mr Mac Whirter.

    I cannot see the Herald surviving.
    The National is going the same way. Common Weal, Rise, the workers owning the means of production, and all that 20th Century Champagne Communism.
    SNP x 2.
    EU Remain.

  61. Nation Libre says:

    I think a few people on this site including myself were openly sceptical about the National and SH and expected much of what we’re seeing now. I think the National always goes very softly on stories it should be hammering. What was the Nessie front page all about when the PFI story should have been front page for days

    The SH has been pretty much punting anybody but SNP for the second vote for months and we all know where that might lead

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, same company, same manipulation. I’ll give my money and support to genuine independence seeking media, not ones that are under Unionist control

  62. David Mogg says:

    Below is a quote from Willie Sullivan.

    “when some politicians are holding down what are effectively full-time jobs in between representing their constituents, scrutinising legislation and keeping the government in check, something has to give. And that, it seems, is the voters”.

    It is of interest to note that when he was a Labour Councillor he effectively moved to London leaving the work of representing his constituents to his ward colleagues but still picked up £16,000 salary.

  63. boris says:

    There are 3 campaigns being fought.

    1. The SNP are fighting a political campaign against the Unionist parties.

    2. RISE is fighting a cultural campaign against the SNP.

    3. The Greens are fighting against all parties promoting their ideals of a green society.

    4. The Tory and Labour Unionist parties are fighting for their existence

  64. Marie Clark says:

    Like others I gave the Sunday Herald the benefit of the doubt. When Richard Walker left, I thought I’d wait and see what kind of job Neil McKay made, as he is actually a good investigative journalist. Alas no, I gave it up weeks ago, and I can’t say I regret it one bit. Their sales must be going down the stank now, but, hey ho, they never seems to learn do they.

    The gloves are most definitely off now. It’s all out now to try and stop the SNP getting a majority. The sad part is, it’ll only get worse in the run up to the election. My goodness, it disnae half get wearing.

    Roll on the 6th of May and maybe I’ll still have some hair left and no pulled it a’ oot afore it.

  65. Angry Weegie says:

    schrodingers cat says “interesting, the greens will campaign for yes in indyref2”

    But the quote actually says that they will only campaign for independence in a referendum brought about by an approved means, which seems to provide them with the get-out clause they need to make sure they only support a referendum which provides them with political advantage.

  66. Alan McHarg says:

    Stopped buying the Sunday Herald ages ago and the National about six months ago because of this very reason, articles being pro labour (quoting without critical analysis)and overly critical of Scottish government.

    Regards to prof John Curtice (a union man), any independence supporter taking his advice would have to have a long look at themselves. And ERSS seem to be putting unionist party before independence, the usual mantra “would rather a tory lead Westminster government than the SNP” determining our fate.

    So after careful consideration of the arguments presented by the Sunday Herald, I think it’s SNP 1&2 (EU in)…

  67. schrodingers cat says:


    I don’t know yet!

    well, while you were brown nosing Nicol “fit a fine loon” Stephens and Ann “what is TTIP” Begg, it was me who was delivering the snp leaflets thro’ your door. so dinna try tae teach yer grunnie how tae suck eggs


  68. Bill Scott says:

    Could Wings check whether the author of the Sunday herald article is the same Peter Swindon who used to be an assistant to Anas Sarwar?

  69. Orri says:,_2011

    Going from the results the only place that would could even claim the SNP came close to breaking our AMS was in Lothian. By breaking I

  70. schrodingers cat says:

    finds it bizarre of the uk being lectured by obama about leaving the eu


  71. Lollysmum says:

    Angry Weegie at 11.21

    That’s exactly what I took from that statement on Greens campaigning for indyref2. Get out clause writ large.

  72. Schiehallion! Schiehallion! says:

    They’re channelling the Ghost of Labour, after Hamlet 1:v: ‘List, list, o list!’

  73. Col says:

    Sunday herald showing their true colours? Never shall I buy it again. Same for the national. Is it really too much to ask for just to have some agenda free balanced reporting. Do we even live in a democracy? I’m not so sure.

  74. The Rough Bounds. says:

    Hech! This is all fairly dismal. Is there any chance that we could see something uplifting please?

  75. Andrew Rosie says:

    To be fair to The National and the Sunday Herald they, unlike the BBC and unionist press, have nailed Labour over their Edinburgh schools PFI scandal.

    For example, Sunday Times’ Gillian Bowditch is repeating Tory’s nonsensical claims that its all the SNP’s fault for not having X Ray eyes..

  76. R-type Grunt says:

    That cardigan?

  77. Clootie says:

    I can see the puppets but who is the puppet master.

    This stinks of Whitehall manipulation. It’s the same old, same old tactic of weakening the Independence movement by misleading the public through willing stooges.

    The best vehicle for Independence is the SNP which is a very broad church of political views. The choice of narrower party politics is a topic for the period POST Independence.

    SNP X 2

  78. heedtracker says:

    well, while you were brown nosing Nicol “fit a fine loon” Stephens and Ann “what is TTIP” Begg, it was me who was delivering the snp leaflets thro’ your door. so dinna try tae teach yer grunnie how tae suck eggs

    It’s what I do:D

  79. Dcanmore says:

    There are lots of games being played out by commentators of Scottish politics that are hired to write about it.

    First of all it was never a secret that Ian McWhirter is a UK federalist first and an indy supporter someway second. However, it was quite obvious he detests the SNP but Ian was clever to curry favour with independence supporters, long enough to get as many books out within the timeframe of before, during and after the referendum. He has enjoyed bouyant sales, television appearances, public speaking and continues to write freelance in newspapers on the back of the independence movement.

    David Torrance (laughably of course) is supposed to be a moderate commentator, so he gets his television and newspaper gigs to beat the SNP routinely while writing his books about leading SNP members. David is a Tory but you’ll never get him to admit that, like McWhirter he needs an all-round audience for his book sales but politically he’ll be quite happy for the SNP to disappear tomorrow.

    Jim Sillars has had a personal beef with the SNP (namely Alex Salmond) going back decades, unfortunately he is only hired give the SNP a poke in the eye, it seems that’s all he’s there to do now.

    Mike Small has, through Bella Caledonia, been attacking popular individual independence supporters for their lack of citicism of the SNP. This is astonishing considering a sizable amount of his readership (and donators) will be SNP supporters. Mike belongs to the Radical Left and lends much of his support to RISE. If Mike believes RISE is better suited to gain independence for Scotland than the SNP then he’s going to lose a lot of support he has enjoyed from SNP voters.

    RISE, born from the Radical Independence Campaign has done something that can only be described as daft. That is actually come out in existance from something that was infinitely better than themselves. RIC was terrific during the Indy Ref. They galvanised working class support for independence particularly in post-industrial parts of Scotland and no doubt helped Glasgow become a YES city. The RIC could continue in raising support for independence through debate and meaningful engagement but now it can’t because it has given birth to their own political party. RISE maybe shouty have a couple of decent candidates but it doesn’t have the resources to get more than 1% of the vote. Any future RIC conference will sadly just be a tub-thumping RISE meeting and will spend much of the time griping at the SNP.

    The only real route to independence is through the SNP, Scotland has another pro-independence party with the Greens and they are gaining some momentum. However, I despair at those who call themselves independence supporters who believe that beating the SNP is somehow helping the cause. What they are doing is showing how they would operate in an independent Scotland before we have actually gained it.

    It seems to me that egos and the drive for publicity and the contempt for the popularity of the SNP has taken over the essence of why the independence movement is there in the first place. Sure the SNP are not perfect, there are contentious issues with some policies and so on, but if the goal in the short-term is independence then why do the work of our enemies for them?

    At the beginning of the year I cancelled my Herald subsciption. Recently I thought about re-subscribing for the sake of The Sunday Herald and The National. Now, I don’t give a shit, the money given to the Herald also pays for daily anti-SNP pro-unionst garbage and in my mind The Sunday Herald and The National aren’t a worthy counter balance.

    If anyone wants to further the cause of independence to make it a reality, then it’s two votes SNP, it’s the only way.

  80. Training Day says:

    This was entirely predictable.

    A paper which employs Tom Gordon and Paul Hutcheon will never support independence.

    Independence supporters on here who have backed the SH – whose sincerity about the cause I don’t doubt for a second – really need to give this rag a miss.

  81. Legerwood says:

    While the article highlighted here can rightly be criticised I think the Sunday Herald today, particularly in its front page, does deserve some credit for setting out the PFI and Labour connection quite clearly if a little belatedly. There is also a double page spread on the PFI debacle and clearly linkink it to Labour.

    While it mentions the NPD model used by the SNP the figures it quotes in relation to the NPD projects when compared to the figures for PFI projects does show that the NPD is a better deal albeit on a smaller sample.

    There is also a double paged article written by Ms Sturgeon.

    Overall a fairly balanced selection of stories. Is that not what you want?

  82. Sinky says:

    Rev’s twitter feed reveals that the author of the Sunday Herald “exclusive” story is one Peter Swindon former parliamentary assistant to Anas Sarwar who is standing on the Regional List for Labour. No conflict of interest then?

  83. John Gibson says:

    Yep the Herald has been showing its true colours for some time now and I no longer buy it
    It will sink like a stone soon and it will be well deserved
    What a bunch of fools they must be that run that paper

  84. Rev. Stuart Campbell says:

    “Could Wings check whether the author of the Sunday herald article is the same Peter Swindon who used to be an assistant to Anas Sarwar?”

    I did and it is. Will edit in. Thanks for the tip-off 🙂

  85. Joemcg says:

    Don’t let them in by the backdoor. If you desire independence SNPX2. The only option.

  86. CameronB Brodie says:

    A common problem experienced when demolishing large, established edifices, is that surrounding neighbourhoods can often be over-run by the vermin that once nested under said structure.

    Remember kids. Never leave a British Marxist Trot unattended, as they tend to grow into British Nationalists Socialists. Not very pleasant, though you can avoid this condition by lowering ones intake of 19th century ideology.

  87. Topher Dawson says:

    Doug Daniel, yes I’m a Green, I did say that. 9th on the list for 7 seats is hardly worth bragging about!

    heedtracker I’m a Green because the climate has not stopped melting down while we Scots sort out our future. I understand why SNP members will vote SNPx2, it’s perfectly reasonable.

    But another valid path for those who want independence and are open to post independence politics, is SNP+Green. Let’s work together as if we are living in the early days of a better nation.

  88. Almannysbunnet says:

    Is anybody really surprised at the Sunday Herald? Their ever diminishing readership is just diverse enough that this crap may catch out a few. It will be much tougher to pull that stunt with the National. I suspect it is almost entirely bought by indepedence supporters who read it with critical eye looking out for any sign of UKOK trojan horse journalism.
    The SNP are advising “both votes SNP.” The Herald is encouraging “independence supporters” to split the vote. I know who I trust.
    Already 4 postal votes SNP from this house. Envelope sealed but will hold off posting to give Ruthie as little chance as possible to steam open the envelope and have a wee keek!

  89. G H Graham says:

    Firstly, this is yet one more example of a superb demolition of the pathetic British print media’s barely disguised unionist argument.

    Secondly, McWhirter is too long contaminated with Herald paychecks to be of any value to anyone anymore, except his far right wing chums sitting at the sub eds desk.

    He previously claimed Wings is only popular because of its narrow, pro independence agenda & couldn’t possibly appeal to a wider audience. But he either fails to recognise or deliberately chooses to dismiss, the brutal appeal of a writer who, akin to a character in slasher movie, butchers his way through pro BritNat media bullshit with a pimped out chainsaw, whistling Dixie.

    I’ll take a moment to indulge in McWhirter’s sad irony here as he himself pontificates from The Herald’s self rightious, neocon lecturn to an audience that is shrinking faster than a discarded condom in the afternoon heat of Las Vegas.

    Lastly, it’s always fascinating to watch a never ending socialist queue, longer than one looking for fresh Russian bread, nevertheless delighted to collude with the neocon den of sleaze, corruption & self serving elites in Westminster.

    Thanks for this expose Stu. I can now add these two previously unknown names, Sullivan & Scuthorne to my personal roll call of champagne socialists; Brown, Darling, McDougall, Blair, Kinnock, Milliband, McConnell, Alexander, etc.

  90. Jack Murphy says:

    davidb said 10:04 am:-
    “Phew, I’m glad I don’t need to worry about things like this. I postal voted on Thursday…..”

    That reminds me,has Tory Ruth Davidson been on the Telly yet telling us the Postal Votes results? 🙁

  91. Bill McLean says:

    Herald no more! Since the death of Iain Bell and the departure of Richard Walker it has gone down hill!
    Iain McWhirter is so confusing and contradictory. I’ll be watching the National carefully!
    SNP x 2.

  92. Papadox says:

    Slab Libdems and tollies are under the same London establishment management and control. The MSM/EBC are the mouthpiece of the same management. There are a lot of Westminster double agents in the game masquerading as journalists who get their direction and info from the head office. Secret intelligence services.
    The main object of the establishment is to PREVENT the SNP from getting a majority in Holyrood and thereby prevent the threat of a second indyref and slow the independence train till they can figure out how to eliminate it.

    My wife and I just returned our ballot papers SNP X 4. SNP X 4. Scotland.

  93. Sarah says:

    Doug Daniel @ 10.47
    Topher worked like a Trojan for Yes in 2014 and was an excellent advocate – cool, calm and collected [unlike some in my family!]. Ullapool polling district came out as 59% Yes because we were broadly based across parties. I’m not going to risk anything and will be voting SNPx2 but I respect Topher’s view.

  94. Socrates MacSporran says:

    From my personal experience of Richard Walker, I never had any doubts as to his belief in and commitment to Independence. I do not know his successor, so cannot verify whether or not, he is similarly committed to Independence.

    However, from a corporate standpoint, the Sunday Herald, like its sister papers, the Evening Times, the Herald and the National, is owned by an American media conglomerate. Like every other such entity, they rely heavily on advertising, the bulk of which comes from outwith Scotland.

    Therefore, rightly or wrongly, there will be a belief in the areas above the editorial floor, where the real decisions are taken, that they have to not upset the folks whose cash and support keeps them going.

    The papers dare not upset their advertisers too much – look what happened when Graham Spiers upset one major advertiser who was also a Rangers director – so the papers cannot, at the moment, be seen to be too pro-independence.

    In some ways, it is cowardly, but, from a commerical viewpoint, understandable.

    Winning Independence was never going to be easy, the forces of neo-liberal commerce and the status quo will continue to put every obstacle they can come up with in the way of Independence. The trick for us in the Independence movement is to find a way to beat their dirty tricks campaign.

    That will not be at all easy.

  95. One_Scot says:

    So the Sunday Heralds headiline,

    ‘New study claims Independence supporters should not cast second vote for SNP at Holyrood election.

    is effectively really,

    Labour claims Independence supporters should not cast second vote for SNP at Holyrood election.

    Jeez, ‘Scottish Labour’ what are they like. Have they really reached the point where they have nothing to offer but deception and lies in order to maintain their existence on the Gravy Train.

  96. tartanarse says:

    A timely reminder that there is NO Scottish media except NO Scottish media.

    That includes the National. Taking folk for mugs.

  97. Dan Huil says:

    Sunday Herald no more. Proof once again that the MSM is fundilimundily an integral part on the britnat establishment.
    To hell with the lot of them.

    SNP x 2.

  98. Macart says:

    Maybe just me, but I believe you vote for who you feel will form competent government, administration, legislation and action for the issues you feel need addressed. You vote for who you believe will deliver on most of their pledges and policies and for those you feel most capable of doing same.

    Right now anyone running government in Scotland must be prepared and able to work under the constraints of devolution whilst tirelessly pushing to improve upon that situation. They must have the policies, the vision and the machinery in place to deal with and scrutinise harmful legislation passed on from Westminster’s central government and that particular government’s legislation WILL be harmful. Constitutionally that party must also be WILLING and able to act upon popular mandate as and when necesary.

    This is about voting for stable, reliable government at a time of economic, political and constitutional flux in a parliament with limited responsibilities and powers to affect lasting meaningful change.

    I think its a given that NONE of the establishment parties are willing to act on a popular mandate for constitutional change. Some (Labour) have even gone so far as to say so. Some (Conservatives) don’t believe that there is any circumstance which they would feel warrants constitutional change in order to protect the best interests of the population. Some (Libdems) have no problem at all in enabling the other two to crap all over the democratic process and the rights of the population.

    At this point in time I’ll be voting for a safe pair of hands with a track record in delivery across the widest spectrum of society. The mark of good government is that it acts in the best interests of and on the behalf of all of the population within their care. They wouldn’t be a government worth voting for if they didn’t.

    Independence is radical enough for me right now. When I see a parliament fully empowered and able to cater for all the voices in our society I’ll be having a really close look at all of those new voices policies. Right now we have one real source and one only for what ails us, a political and parliamentary union which is a whole skipload of bother all on its own.

    We really, really, really don’t need to add useless, needless and harmful self division against the forces that hoose on the Thames can bring to the field.

    As for the press? They won’t be forming a government, so why listen to what they have to say? Look at the paperwork coming through your door. Listen to what the doorsteppers have to say and look at where we were twenty years ago, to where we are today. LOOK at the legislation passed by one parliament and the work the other has to do to offset the effects of that legislation. If you want more of the same, you now know how to go get it by this point.

    Use your eyes, your ears, your reason and then use your vote.

  99. Almannysbunnet says:

    @ Macart

    Excellent, never heard it more beautifully put!

  100. Dorothy Devine says:

    I have just seen the trail for BBBC Scotland’s coverage of the election and my thought was as each face popped up ,
    ” what an untrustworthy crew”.

    It featured Sally , Gary , Glenn, Brian and Jackie.

  101. Stoker says:

    tartanarse wrote:
    “A timely reminder that there is NO Scottish media except NO Scottish media.That includes the National. Taking folk for mugs.”

    Ain’t that the truth! The BUM Bunions are masters of division!

  102. schrodingers cat says:

    the greens PREFERED means of consulting the opinion of the people is by referendum

    but the greens wont be those who will decided which methodology is used. it is the snp who will decide and no method of accertaining the views of the people will be out lined in our manifesto

    rise and solidarity want indyref2 in the the next term regardless. a bit reckless since commiting to indyref2 would leave them no choice but to hold one regardless of the support for yes. but since it isnt rise or solidarity who will be in power to decide this issue, they can say whatever they want.

    the EU result is a sign post, a gateway for what happens going forward. commiting to indyref2 carries as many risks as not commiting to indyref2, which is why the snp manifesto wont do either, it will put the onus on us, the people to push for indyref2. if enough people want indyref2 nicola reserves the right to hold indyref2. but the snp manifesto wont outline the mechanism by which we do this either

    just for your info, there are 2 routes to gain a democratic mandate to do anything, a referendum or an election

    the 2015 ge did not give the snp a democratic mandate to hold indyref2, see tommy shepard 7:20s

    this 2016 he will also not give the snp a democratic mandate to hold indyref2, but the snp manifesto will not rule holding indyref2

    the mandate for indyref2 will come from us via
    1. a referendum(green preference)
    2. an election (2017 council elections, snp preference)
    3. before the snp propose either of the above methods of creating a mandate to hold indyref2, the polls will need to show a sizable increase in support for indy, an eu leave result or continued tory rule may do this, but for the moment i would look at wings last poll concerning support for indy.

    clarification of whether the greens would consider an election result a democratic mandate might be useful,(topher ?) i cant see why not, but it is clear all smaller indy parties will support a yes

    this is why i support the greens/rise or solidarity replacing unionists msps in this election

  103. Dr Jim says:

    Bernard Ponsonby put it to Chairman Harvie that in the event of a 60% tax rate and a hike across the rest of the bands would create capital flight

    Chairman Harvie’s considered economic political opinion was

    “I don’t believe it”

    Known as the Victor Meldrew political strategy there

    Bernard Ponsonby put it to Chairman Harvie that “You just can’t tell private companies what they will or won’t do”

    The considered reply came back “We’ll have powers to make them”

    I’ve heard these type of arguments and replies before but not by anyone who ever called themselves Green

    On Independence The Wee Chairman has another idea, we’ll have a vote to have a vote and then we’ll see where we are if it’s winnable or not, we might set the threshold at 1000.000 or mibbees A Million, we’ll just wait for the wee chairman to decide eh

    Folk who start sentences with phrases like “People have to understand”… well no they don’t, and the Chairman uses that one a lot

    If or when the Greens ever become a political party I’m happy to listen but while they’re using Liberal Democrat tactics to get elected in order to beat the Liberal Democrats NO!!

    BTW I’m not Anti Green or even Anti Labour or Tory or anybody, I’m Anti abuse of power and lying, we’ve had that thanks and that’s what happens to politicians who allow it to go to their heads

    SNPx2 to be sure

  104. Albamac says:

    Is anyone surprised by this? I never bought into the idea that the Sunday Herald was launched for our benefit, so I didn’t buy it.

    Another unionist scam designed to encourage us to pay for their failures. Do not resuscitate!

  105. Orri says:,_2011

    Going from the results the only place that would could even claim the SNP came close to breaking our AMS was in Lothian. By breaking I mean the results were different from those that an allocation using the D’Hond Method wihout a pre seeding of constituency seats would have achieved. That was a special case though and the loser was the Lib Dems so fuck them.

    More of a concern is the tie to someone in the ERS of an article advocating abuse of the current system. Obviously that might be explained as simply demonstrating the flaws. If that’s so the perhaps we’ll have an explanation of a better alternative.

    Let’s add to that the political capital to be made if it can be claimed that the only reason for a pro Indy majority is down to cheating

    Feeding that latest forecast into this estimator gives a guess at Green or SNP list seats in every region. Sometimes both and sometimes more. That’s not to say that it’s accurate but it does give you a potential outcome. The basic point is that RISE have no chance. The Greens might. An obvious caveat is that there might have been a history of attempts at tactical voting in the previous results the prediction is based on.

    More important is that, as has been said before, there’s a chance of an attempt at tactical voting resulting in a seat being lost rather gained or simply transfered. Looking at the number of parties on the regional ballots with any chance of a seat there’s going to be around 3 other parties who might get one of your party’s seats in any attempt at voting tactically. The odds are certainly against it working.

    Obviously the problem is that there may be an influx of pro Indy support who will never vote SNP. They might be tempted with a RISE vote. They would be far better advised to vote Green regionally and abstain on the constituency. Also if you voted Green regardless of your first preference last time and they almost got a seat then you face the hard choice of how to place your vote this time.

    Luckily I don’t have to choose. I support the SNP and will vote SNP x 2. My support for the party might be considered tactical as I consider them to have the best chance at delivering another referendum and at delivering a good socially responsible government. My vote isn’t tactical though. If I supported the Greens I’d vote Green and possibly SNP unless the constituency candidate was a complete bellend. In either case I’d have as much chance as furthering the cause of independence as I would voting tactically.

  106. Ruby says:

    Legerwood says:
    17 April, 2016 at 11:46 am

    While the article highlighted here can rightly be criticised I think the Sunday Herald today, particularly in its front page, does deserve some credit for setting out the PFI and Labour connection quite clearly if a little belatedly. There is also a double page spread on the PFI debacle and clearly linkink it to Labour.

    Ruby replies

    Any mention in the Herald articles or comments about the £1.5b returned by Lab/Lib Dems to Westminster?

    If not would you be able to post a comment?
    Muchas gracias! 😛

  107. Marie Clark says:

    Macart @ 12.05. I’m right with you 100%.Well said sir.

  108. The Sunday Herald and the National both have slipped since they employed the Unionist editors from the Unionist Herald Both have been pushing for a second anti SNP vote and for the insignificant Rise, which is merely a front for the squabbling SSP and an anti Tommy Sheridan Party. What else are they noted for?

  109. schrodingers cat says:

    Topher Dawson
    your concern for the environment is admirable, but as i pointed out to the green list candidate for fife and mid region, who during a hustings said ” tory policies from WM have devastated the blurgeoning renewables industry in Scotland”
    how can we create a greener scotland from holyrood if it is constantly undermined WM?
    she had no answer…
    but for your benefit, independence is the only means by which we can address environmental issues in scotland. indeed, independence is the underlying solution to pretty much most issues in scotland.

    the fact that you are a green list msp candidate publicly declaring that you will be voting
    is unusual to say the least but it does show you believe in tactical voting
    a word of warning though topher. the Highlands and the south regions are the 2 regions where the snp will pick up list msps. and they may need them to form a majority government. voting green2 in the highlands may let in more unionists list msps who will block indyref2, no indy, without which, green initiatives will continued to be undermined in scotland.
    myself on the otherhand, as a long time snp member, living in fife&mid, will vote(have already voted by post)
    this is in an effort to get rid of wullie rennie who has already said he will vote no again in indyref2 even if the eu result is leave

  110. schrodingers cat says:

    Donald Anderson
    the crossword is ok,
    wgd is excellent
    moodie cartoons are better than the sunday post oor wullie

  111. Ghillie says:

    Sunday Herald showing it’s true colours.

    Alot of us have been uneasy for a while and now it’s crystal clear what they are up to.

    Thanks Rev.

  112. kendomacaroonbar says:

    How about supporting a truly independent grass roots media?


    iScot is reprinting the Wee Black Book in their May issue with kind permission of Wings over Scotland.

    Give these guys a try out – Scotland needs a new media – we’ve been banging on about it for the past few years, and the only way of achieving it is to actually do something about it.

    Please be the force for change. Thank you.

  113. yesindyref2 says:

    Thanks Rev for the article. I post on the Sunday Herald and Herald, but while I might push to the limit at times, I don’t really want a contradictory posting to be legitimately deleted under the rules, so I’m a little restrained.

    The Sunday Herald has a very clear agenda to split the Independence vote. It has before pushed Green and to some extent RISE, while happily having some anti-SNP articles, but this Sunday it’s really gone way over the top, while having the headline about PFI which makes it look as though finally it’s going to cover the Labour PFI scandal, to attract pro-SNP and pro-Indy supporters to buy the paper and not so subtly indoctrinate them against voting SNP on the List vote.

    But it’s not really about the PFI scandal, it skips over the figures, while in one of the 2 articles on PFI it mentions the SNP NPD and gives figures, while NOT pointing out that the NPD ratio of repayment to value is about 3, while the Labour / LibDem was is about 5.

    I think the Sunday Herald is remerging with the Herald, but before it does is trying to damage the SNP in the Holyrood Elections 2016, the Scottish Government generally, Indy Ref 2 and hence Independence, before it does.

  114. Macbeda says:

    Macart at 12:05

    What he said.

  115. seanair says:

    Have been swithering for a month or so about giving the SH the heave, with its Hutcheon and Gordon etc. and the absence of Ian Bell. Decided this week not to buy it, so I’m really pleased that I’ve helped to reduce it’s circulation along with what appears to be many others. £1.70 saved!
    Don’t think the National is in the the same boat but if it changes, leading up to 5th May, I will do the same.
    O/T, but I get worried about the false statements being made about voting twice for SNP being illegal. Should SNP do something to challenge this? One minute of Nicola in a PPB would do it.

  116. cirsium says:

    bravo Macart (12.05)

  117. CameronB Brodie says:

    That cardigan?

    Probably thinks he’s a hipster. (snigger)

  118. Artyhetty says:

    Makes you wonder what their game is, oh yeh, selling papers and keeping the shareholders happy.

    I have noticed the National going in a similar direction very recently. The Nessie front page was irrelevant and ridiculous, like a comic and when I had time to read, the contents were equally embarassing.
    The National give lots of space now to liebour, and Rise etc, when it comes to their artickes on the SNP it is mostly very negative.

    It is becoming bland with lareg sections critising the SNP government, quite injustifiably in actual fact, while it could be going for the throats of the unionist parties with their slash and burn policies.

    The wagons are circling, May election is crucial. I won’t be going out of my way to buy it now.


    Anyone else get the leaflet, ‘vote for Women’s Equality Party’ for 2016? A london based mouthpiece. There is no mention of a candidate, no facebook page they claim to have for Lothian, just one for Glasgow which mirrors the one in London regrads content.

    I contacted them re this, but the Glasgow fb says they are dreadful at responding. I clicked, ‘join this group’ for Lothian, expecting to be asked for email address etc. I now seem to have been joined automatically, and expect I am the only member in the Lothians!

  119. heedtracker says:

    NeilMackay ?@NeilMackay 39m39 minutes ago
    Reporter: Hello, someone said something you might not like but it’s my job to tell you

    Twitter: ??

    My short play: Shoot the Messenger

    Why is it ok for National to print stuff but not ok to criticise them?

    NeilMackay ?@NeilMackay 35m35 minutes ago
    And there came a time of great darkness upon the world when the people could not differentiate between news and opinion, and Jesus did weep

    Jesus probably doesn’t care that much about the complete and utter farce that is yew kay hackdom.

  120. schrodingers cat says:

    heedtracker says:

    It’s what I do:D

    you’re a political ol’ hector

  121. maxxmacc says:

    At risk of repeating myself, the end is nigh for newspapers which charge. The independence movement needs to think out of the box to get the message out.

    Follow the Metro’s lead. Make a free, pro-Scottish newspaper to be delivered to Metro outlets (buses, trains) on a Ssaturday so people can read it all weekend.

    Advertising pays the bills. It’s the only way forward.

  122. Macart says:


    Speaking with the works hat on.

    Contributions are excellent and the print quality, layouts and finish of the product are superb. Well worth the subscription.

  123. Calum McKay says:

    Aesops fables, the fox does a favour for the scorpion by carrying it over the river on its back.

    Before they set off the fox says to the scorpion, promise you won’t sting me whilst we are crossing the river.

    The scorpion promises.

    Halfway across the river the scorpion stings the fox, the fox says to the scorpion why did you do that, we will both drown and you broke your promise.

    The scorpion replies, it’s in my nature!

    The moral being we know what the unionist press is and why we should never thrust it, so………………………DON’T TRUST IT!

  124. yesindyref2 says:

    @schrodingers cat
    The Scottish Green Pary manifesto has already been published online, and what it has to say about the Referendum can be see in it:

  125. James Barr Gardner says:


    Why ?

    Betrayals/Lies/Smears by all other Parties I can never forgive or forget. It’s in their nature to be greedy self serving liars, criminals, tax evasion, theft, fraud, elitism in it’s worst possible form, they will never change.

    Do not forget the press and TV companies in this collusion of greed, crime, phone-hacking, cover ups and lies.

    Worse still Scottish placemen north and south of the border with their betrayal of the People of Scotland, grinning smug back stabbers bought with Westminster blood money.

    Scotland and the People of Scotland First.
    Fairness throughout the Population of Scotland.
    A real future for the future of young Scots.
    A healthier Nation.

    Vote to get Independent Scotland and free from Tory hands covered in the blood of innocents.

  126. schrodingers cat says:

    i know dads, thats where it says

    In a second referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.

    seems fairly unoquivocal

  127. heedtracker says:

    yesindyref2 says:
    17 April, 2016 at 1:25 pm
    @schrodingers cat
    The Scottish Green Pary manifesto has already been published online, and what it has to say about the Referendum can be see in it:

    Awe. Its a lovely manifesto, really lovely. Nothing to frighten the horses at all. Its just like LidDem Baron Stephen of Aberdeen, who’s now working really hard to reform the Lords, from the inside, £300 a day for life, anti SNP unelected soap box at the BBC when required and for life.

    Vote Green, we’re nice.

  128. CameronB Brodie says:

    Topher Dawson
    I would have thought the only way to stop the climate from warming, is to prevent the solar system from doing it’s “cosmic time cycle” thing.

    Anyhoo, I favour plurality. I’m also aware that timing is a critical component of success. Now is not the time to be seeking SNP votes, IMHO. The SNP are the most likely vehicle to deliver independence, in fact, the only one. No point in jumping off the bandwagon now, when we’ve still got a way to go.

    A Green agenda for Scotland, will only be possible under independence, IMHO.

    SNP x 2 (the First Minister thinks this will assist the drive to Scotland’s self-determination)

  129. mike cassidy says:

    SNP 1 + 2

    Anything else is just playing with yourself.

  130. Artyhetty says:

    Doh! Excuse the typos in my last comment, will do better next time.

  131. yesindyref2 says:

    Cat – I don’t doubt the Greens will support a YES vote in Indy Ref 2. There may be a few who aren’t up for Indy, but then there’s a few from the SNP who don’t have that as a priority. But it clearly says in the Green’s manifesto:

    “Citizens as legislators.
    Citizens should be able to play a direct role in the legislative process: on presenting a petition signed by an appropriate number of voters, citizens should be able to trigger a vote on important issues of devolved responsibility. As we proposed on the one year anniversary of the Independence Referendum, this is the Scottish Greens’ preferred way of deciding to hold a second referendum on Independence. If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage. In such a referendum the Scottish Greens will campaign for independence.”

    “If a new referendum is to happen, it should come about by the will of the people, and not be driven by calculations of party political advantage.

    That can be interpreted as saying the Greens will support the million signature petition, but not the SNP if they call for Indy Ref 2.

    To get Independence, first we need Indy Ref 2 – at the right time.

  132. Hamish100 says:

    I stopped buying the Herald daily around when Gardham joined up. Kept with the Sunday Herald along with my morning rolls. I may be considering sticking with the rolls.

    As for Curtice he is a yooniists wet dream. They need a poll , he provides it. Sets up the questions and provides the answers they want.

    Yes SNP 1 & 2

  133. Breeks says:

    Had a chuckle at MacWhirter’s headline. “The key to healthy Scottish politics; diversity not monopoly.

    I thought, “Great. Another foot soldier alerting people to the problem of the biased media”.

    But hey, anybody can make a mistake.

  134. Traingular Ears says:

    Bad news for yoons…

    I will be voting in ALL papers of ALL elections for the SNP until the material change of Scotland once again being a normal independent country like every other.

  135. NeoconNat says:

    So, basically Labour are supporting RISE and using those fools to try and divide the SNP vote. The media as usual are doing their bit. Anyone surprised? No.

    As I said elsewhere, the left are being used as a fifth column in Scotland and within the SNP. That’s the historical tradition of the left in Scotland. Actually they play that deceptive part everywhere. Recent elections in Greece are worth looking at in that regard.

    The sensible centre is where the SNP should stay and I have confidence in the SNP and the Scottish electorate in that respect. The voting system we have will deliver, of that I’m sure.

    SNP x 2 is more obviously the answer now than it ever was.

    Interesting conversation about Scotland with James Rubin (ex US Sec of State) and Andrew Neil on BBC earlier. Hopefully someone will post a link.

  136. call me dave says:

    Ruthie waffles without a blush, finding it difficult to answer questions:

    Sturgeon fishing with a green lure, good strategy:

  137. Ruby says:

    How many people here use ‘Press Display’ to read newspapers?

  138. Triangular Ears says:

    Grrr, misspelt my own name!

  139. schrodingers cat says:

    CameronB Brodie says:
    Topher Dawson
    I favour plurality. I’m also aware that timing is a critical component of success. Now is not the time to be seeking SNP votes,

    um, topher is a green candidate (you heard it correctly) who is advocating um

    snp in the constituency
    green in the list

    is he seeking snp votes or is he advocating green supporters to vote snp?

  140. schrodingers cat says:

    To get Independence, first we need Indy Ref 2 – at the right time.


    To get Independence, first we need a mandate from the people then we can hold Indy Ref 2 – at the right time.

    this election wont give nicola a mandate for indyref2 anymore than the 2015 ge did.

    turning the 2017 council election into a “referendum giving mandate” election will do this

    a democratic process the greens cant and wont dismiss

  141. NeoconNat says:

    Schrodinger, I’m sure respect levels between us are low on both sides and frankly I usually ignore your posts, but in this recent comment from you it looks like you are advocating SNP 1 and Green 2.

    I’m not saying you are advocating that, but that’s how it looks.

  142. Capella says:

    @ Ruby
    I find Press Display a bit clunky. It seems to involve an awful lot of scrolling to gt to the front pages.
    I use Kiosko. I only look at the front pages anyway to see what the headlines are.

  143. SNP first…SNP second…it is quite simple.
    Many thanks Rev for your excellent article.

  144. CameronB Brodie says:

    schrodingers cat
    Yes, it was a badly constructed post. I was addressing Topher Dawson but speaking to the readers. Probably did neither. 🙁 😉

  145. ScottishPsyche says:

    Recently I’ve got the impression Neil Mackay was more interested in promoting his books than anything else. I felt Richard Walker hard far more credibility.

    There will have undoubtedly have been pressure on Mackay not back to the SNP which he seems more than happy to go along with. He seems desperate to find reasons to give Slab a life line just like McKenna and McWhirter.

    The amount of support Rise has had from the Herald group is astonishing considering no one beyond the angry student politics bubble has even heard of them.

    It is very disappointing. I would have had more respect for him had he just come out and said it was his editorial view that smaller parties should have a presence rather than distort a report.

  146. Ruby says:

    Iain McWhirter seem to want to emphasise that Alex Salmond supported a minority government:

    He stated in around the 2nd paragraph of his article:

    Many Scots may be tempted to split their ticket, whether they support independence or not, because they believe the Holyrood system works better with minority governments. Even Alex Salmond seemed to believe that in the past

    Much further down incase you missed the bit in the 2nd paragraph he states:

    ‘Alex Salmond made a virtue out of minority government, and claimed that that it was “a new politics of co-operation and consensus” that was in keeping with the true spirit of Scottish democracy.’

    At the end he writes:

    The SNP dominates Scottish politics right now quite fairly because the other parties have lost their way. Scotland is not thus a one-party state, as some Westminster commentators have suggested, but an intensely competitive multi-party system in which one party has become unusually popular.

    I suspect that, in this election, many SNP voters will split their ticket, not because of the numbers game or d’Hondt, but because of a very Scottish concern that Nicola Sturgeon doesn’t get too big for her boots.’

    Alex Salmond may have believed that minority government was best as did the Scottish electorate but since the opposition don’t know the meaning of consesus and co-operatition I think everyone has changed their mind.

    McWhirter also writes

    ‘Curtice will no doubt be accused by more militant nationalists of aiding and abetting the Unionist parties’

    which I think is totally out of order.

    The bit about SNP voters splitting their vote because they don’t want Nicola to get too big for her boots is laughable!

  147. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Artyhetty @13:06 said:

    I have noticed the National going in a similar direction very recently. … [They] give lots of space now to liebour, and Rise etc…

    It is becoming bland with large sections critising the SNP government … while it could be going for the throats of the unionist parties with their slash and burn policies.

    Yes, I have had a similar impression since Richard Walker left, a growing feeling that its small staff are far-left inclined, not least in the letters section, where some very frequent correspondents (no, not this forum’s very own DMH!) seem to me to be bandwagon followers, latching on to independence but actually far more interested in pursuing their own obscure agendas.

    Obviously there are various forces at play trying to promote RISE, especially in Glasgow, and not all are necessarily well-meaning.

    Which is a pity. I’m personally all for diversity, since in the longer term it won’t do the SNP any good if there’s an absence of critical friends in Parliament, but not at any price.

    No problemo if you’re a party diehard (SNP or otherwise) of course, but for the rest of us getting this list vote right is a bit of a toughie…

  148. Ruby says:

    Capella says:
    17 April, 2016 at 2:21 pm

    @ Ruby
    I find Press Display a bit clunky. It seems to involve an awful lot of scrolling to gt to the front pages.
    I use Kiosko. I only look at the front pages anyway to see what the headlines are.

    Ruby replies

    How does that work? If I click on any of the front pages I am just taken to the website of that newspaper.

    The Press Reader I use which I have to log into using my Library membership number gives a list of thumbnails down the right hand side and when I click on them I get a digital copy of the newspaper which is what I imagine you get if you subscribe to that newspaper. It’s a digital copy of the hard copy.

    Does anyone use the Press Reader where you have to sign in with your Library membership number?

  149. sandycraig says:

    macart 12.05

    Absolutely agree 100%.
    That’s me finished with the SH as well.

    Will just have to buy a couple of comics when I’m down for the rolls now.

  150. heedtracker says:

    Recently I’ve got the impression Neil Mackay was more interested in promoting his books than anything else.

    I think they just have to keep paying mortgages etc.

    Poor old Macwhirter picked the wrong side and he’s clearly been frozen out by Slabour NO freaks in Pacific Quay.

    He has a big ego, so it must hurt a lot when he sits and watches hard coon tory yoons like this one.

    Toryboy kevrage farts out the occasional vote NO or else terrorising yoonster blog that no one actually reads, except enraged BBC liggers and hacks like the Record. Then he’s on telly far more than the genius that is Macwhirter. One flogs dodgy pet supplies, t’other’s an acclaimed author, for gawds sake. Poor Macwhirter.

  151. Ruby says:

    Has there been any further news about WFI?

    I would love to know who it was running to the police & The Herald.

  152. Dave McEwan Hill says:

    It has been obvious for some time that the Sunday Herald has been supportive of RISE. Polling at less than 1% with no elected members anywhere ever it has been accorded the same status as the mainline parties in the last few issues. We all knew that Tom Goedon and Paul Hatchetman were unlikely to support SNP and it is significant that the coverage of the PFI debacle is by Judith Duffy. Sadly it is still the best of our Sundays but Neil McKay is probably making it non viable economically.
    When half the population supports independence and the SNP has about four times the membership of all the other parties put together it takes a certain type of economic genius to decide to ignore that and still expect to sell newspapers.

  153. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Oh, and I should add, it’s funny how all these media voices seem to be seeking to take votes exclusively from the SNP for the sake of “plurality”. It would be a darn sight more convincing, and better serve us all, if they were instead encouraging RISE and the Greens to be taking votes from that zombie party, Labour!

  154. CameronB Brodie says:

    Iain McWhirte was happy to tell Scotland recently, that Alex Salmond’s reticence against supporting NATO’s bombing of Kosova, gave aid and support to those committing ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing that did not begin until after NATO’s bombing campaign had ended.

    The man is either a cretin or a sneaky Yoon propagandist. Or perhaps both.

    P.S. Mr. McWhirter made this statement in the context of an article critical of the SNP for not supporting the bombing of Syria.

    @ Iain McWhirte
    You have entered dangerous territory, IMHO.

  155. Big Jock says:

    Is Mcwhirter the biggest chancer in Scottish politics. Probably. He trusts the UK with federalism. Despite the evidence all being to the contrary. Relying on London to help Scotland and cede power is childishly naive.

  156. Ruby says:

    sandycraig says:
    17 April, 2016 at 2:56 pm

    macart 12.05

    Absolutely agree 100%.
    That’s me finished with the SH as well.

    Will just have to buy a couple of comics when I’m down for the rolls now.

    Ruby replies

    I think it’s important to know what is been written in The Herald etc.

    Why not read these papers free of charge & spend your money on some ‘Velvet-Love Your Bum Toilet Paper’ with your £1.70

    Oh hang on there could be some confusion about the meaning of BUM perhaps I should use the term bottom/botty.

    I don’t think we love our BUM here in Scotland. 🙄

    Do you live in Edinburgh? Don’t answer if you think that is too personal a question!

  157. Ruby says:

    If there were reply boxes on this website I would have posted ‘Very Good Point’

    in the reply box below Robert J. Sutherland post.

    I WANT reply boxes! ‘Tantrum smiley’

    Anyone know how to do a tantrum/stamping feet smiley?

  158. Onwards says:

    It’s disappointed to see Curtice’s measured views misrepresented.
    On the other hand there is a good anti-Labour cover, and a Sturgeon interview.

    I’m going to give the Sunday Herald the benefit of the doubt in the meantime. I hope they have a clarification next week. At the end of the day, its still better to have one independence supporting newspaper than none at all.

    I think most people are smart enough to decide for themselves if they want to take a risk on the regional vote, without a paper telling them what to do.

    In a couple of regions, IF and only if the SNP lead remains strong in the polls, then voting Green could see an extra pro-indy member elected.
    But it is still a big risk to take.

    RISE/Solidarity looks like a wasted vote, as going by the polls they are nowhere near the 6% needed, and they will end up splitting the same few percent amongst themselves.

    Personally, I’ll be voting SNP+SNP because we have proof that it worked last time, and why gamble on a winning formula ??
    And I would prefer an SNP government anyway, rather than see them held back in a coalition.

    Anyone doubting the 2 pro-indy newspapers, I would suggest that instead of boycotting them completely, to only buy them whenever they have a good hard hitting cover page that advances the cause of independence, or attacks the unionist parties.

  159. heedtracker says:

    Is Mcwhirter the biggest chancer in Scottish politics.

    Politics is all about either change or blocking change. England doesnt want to lose control of Scotland and it makes sense that the English dominated media a fighting so hard to stop this from changing.

    One of the reasons I was tweaking my honourable friend schrodingers cat’s tale up there is because Green’s are not much different from the SNP and that’s why they are a problem, if you don’t want to see a coalition Holyrood May 6, that will mean the end of Scottish independence, or at least slow it down to crawl.

    If the Greens want to win, they have to be radical. In Germany, Greens there succeeded in getting nuclear kicked out of Germany. Its an extraordinary achievement in a federal country. Green’s here say they want that too but they clearly cant get enough votes.

    Who can though? Never forget, the yew kay has decided that Scotland is its private and giant nuke waste dump, not just in Argyll and more importantly a safe distance from major English population centres.

  160. Legerwood says:

    Ruby @ 12.37 pm

    I noticed on the last thread that you had mentioned the Sunday Herald article and asked if the £1.5 billion had been mentioned so, being a dutiful wee soul, I had a look. No mention of it so posted a comment about it.

  161. sandycraig says:

    ruby 3.12
    Sorry ruby I don’t get your point. Been getting the SH for a while now and like some others on here, find that some of their articles are not what I wish to read.

    They are becoming like the bbc. Get a report of an article or some story, and when it’s broadcast they alter the wording which changes the story completely. I get enough bias from the Courier(local paper), where you have to read between the lines to get the true story

    “Edinburgh” lovely place but I’m a Fifer and happy to be so.

  162. Saor Alba says:

    Two votes must NOT be wasted.
    Constituency vote SNP.
    List vote SNP.

  163. Ruby says:

    Legerwood says:
    17 April, 2016 at 3:40 pm

    Ruby @ 12.37 pm

    I noticed on the last thread that you had mentioned the Sunday Herald article and asked if the £1.5 billion had been mentioned so, being a dutiful wee soul, I had a look. No mention of it so posted a comment about it.

    Ruby replies

    Well done! You are a good wee soul! ‘star smiley’

    Re McWhirter he’s joined the ‘Black Magic Circle’
    The Magic Cirlce where they practice ‘The Black Art of Media Manipulation’ 😈

  164. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    Well spoken, Onwards, you make a lot of sense.

    Please, everyone, keep in mind that there are still many people on a journey, so shouting at them for being “devo-maxers” or “federalists” is exactly the wrong thing to do. These are the very people who must be won over, and can be won over if treated with respect. The accumulated facts will surely speak sufficiently loudly for themselves.

  165. Ruby says:

    sandycraig says:
    17 April, 2016 at 3:51 pm

    ruby 3.12
    Sorry ruby I don’t get your point.

    Ruby replies

    Don’t worry you are not alone!

    What I was leading up to was telling you ways of reading ‘The Herald’ & ‘The Courier’ free of charge but I have no idea how you do that in Fife!

  166. gus1940 says:

    Solidarity do not (unless I am mistaken) CURRENTLY have any representation in either Local Governmnt or at Holyrood and no representative of RISE has EVER been elected to any public office.

    I was surprised to see that both of these parties were given the privilege of Party oBroadcasts.

    What do other WOSers think of that given that attempts were made to exclude the Greens who have elected representatives at Local, Holyrood and WM from the TV debates?

    Surely it can’t be a sign of our colonial masters’ desperation to apply Divide and Rule in an attempt to stop the election of a second SNP majority government and so reduce the possibility of REF2 taking place.

    Of course all this takes us back to the age old question ‘If Scotland is such a basket case why are they so desperate to hang on to us?’.

    That’s yet another Sunday Politics Scotland gone and still no sign of an interview or debate involving Kez, Baillie, Jumping Flash Jack or any other labour politicians re their Edinburgh Schools PFI Scandal.

    I can’t help but remember the plethora of attacking interviews/debates involving SNP politicians when the FRB had to be closed for repairs.

  167. Free Scotland says:

    Willie Sullivan’s clamour for “lots of different voices” to be heard in the Scottish political scene seems to be making some kind of virtue out of the mere existence of those voices, regardless of how much crap they spout.

    For me, the intellectual deficit is to be found among people like Coburn, Rennie, Davidson, Dugdale and their pals, so there will be a very straightforward SNP x 2 from me on polling day.

    The thought of not having to listen to meaningless interviews revolving round (and round and round and round) the likes of Jackie Baillie fills me with oodles of motivation.

  168. carjamtic says:

    Deliberately avoided football today and the inevitable ‘bloodbath’ that follows a Glasgow Derby,heard it,seen it,not got the T-Shirt.

    Not surprised that actual politicians,have revealed themselves today as supporters of football,normally it’s all stuffed shirts,until a couple of drams are had in ‘private’.

    This is what it is all about,tweets,one way or another and either way it’ s SNP bad,Yoon good.

    This is what we are up against,bringing politics into football,only cheapens politics/society,I remained convinced that the younger the voter,the more savvy the voter,they will not become influenced by such sideshows and vote for who they want to,based on the actual facts.

    These kinds of people are yesterday’ s (wo)men.

  169. gus1940 says:

    Can anybody remember any occasion in any election when a party which has never had any candidate elected to office and hardly registers in any Opinion Poll has been given the opportunity to have a Party Political Broadcast?

  170. Darby O'Gill says:

    I must be getting a different version of the Sunday Herald. Mine had a two-page unedited spread by Nicola Sturgeon and articles taking the mickey out of David Cockburn and Ruth Davidson. The front page and follow-up article was an all-out attack on Labour – McConnell and Brown specifically – over PFI. I couldn’t find any serious criticism of the SNP. I enjoyed it.

  171. yesindyref2 says:

    @Robert J. Sutherland
    Quite right, we can’t shout at devo-maxers for being devo-maxers, but in the case of McWhirter we can shout at him for joining in the Sunday Herald spin of Curtice’s Electoral Reform “THE 2016 SCOTTISH ELECTION BRIEFING” report:

    Curtice set up a scenario, not a good one in my opinion, and his conclusions were based on that, not generally.

  172. Followed the link to “The Report” but found no PDF file as indicated. How can I read exactly what it says?

  173. yesindyref2 says:

    @Ruby, @Legerwood
    I’d go easy with the £1.5 billion “handed back to the Treasury” thing. The reason Unionists won’t challenge it is that to do so, they’d have to admit the SNP got it back in 2007 onwards.

    I checked this out in 2012, and what happened was that the underspends had accumulated and were held by the Treasury, but the Scottish Government were able to draw down on them. This changed in around 2007, and the SNP fought to get that underspend of £1.5 billion back for Scotland but, and here’s the thing, there’s no reason to presume a Lab / LibDem coalition in 2007 wouldn’t have done the same thing. In fact the SNP made a great point during that election of “McConnell’s warchest”, implying he kept it to bribe the Scottish electorate with big spending plans to get back in power.

    “Financial Position
    The consolidated accounts’ final outturn for the 2007/08 financial year was £27,893 million, against a net resource budget of £28,168 million, representing an underspend of £275 million (just under 1% of the Scottish Government’s overall budget). This compares to a final outturn for 2006/07 of £25,664 million and an underspend of £256 million. All Portfolios remained within their Budget Act limit.

    Since devolution, the Scottish Government’s unspent balances held by HM Treasury had gradually accumulated until they reached £1.5 billion at 31 March 2007. The Scottish Government reached an agreement during 2007/08 where it can draw down these balances over the period to 31 March 2011. The agreement means that, in normal circumstances, the Scottish Government will not be able to access any underspends incurred during this period until the next spending review period.”

    I also found previously a reconciliation, which showed the figures over the years from I think 1999 to around 2010 or 2011, and that’s what happened. The SNP drew down on it over 3 or 4 years, so that £1.5 billion wasn’t lost to Scotland, nor was it handed back to the Treasury. They changed the rules retrospectively, and my guess, and it’s a sheer unsupported guess, is that that could have been successfullt challenged in court, as I daresay the SNP Scottish Government would have pointed out

  174. Valerie says:

    I’ve calmed down enough to post.

    Rev – thank you for an excellent piece which lays bare the shite and hypocrisy of these people.

    @The Sunday Herald – you can fck off now. No more money from me.

  175. yesindyref2 says:

    My posting on the consolidated fund might have made more sense if I’d included this quote from audit scotland “including the limits authorised by the Budget (Scotland) Act 2007. “

    I believe this is when the mechanism changed – as in limits. Basically the Treasury was worried that it could face a sudden demand for £1.5 billion, and rising every year.

  176. Peter Clive says:

    This is all entirely predictable and not really a cause for concern …

  177. yesindyref2 says:

    First sign for me was the Hope Over Fear apaprently childish huff from the Sunday Herald when the spread from the Daily Record was actually much better, and all the SH did was greet that its photographers were kept off a small stage by Sheridan’s minders: “Why the pro-independence Sunday Herald was turned away from the pro-independence Hope Over Fear rally”.

    Cobblers. There were photographers from other media all over the place, even lying on the ground to get their shots, next to me having a sit-down at the back. It’s a public square.

    The SH totally ignored people like me who went to give support to YES, and a good few other SNP people who went as well.

    That was the writing on the wall for me.

  178. Clydebuilt says:

    Re the Sunday Herald….. Editor Neil MacKay has stated he is against Scotland becoming independent
    Tom Girdon and Paul Hutcheon are both Pro Labour. As for MacWhirter every election time he is at best not helpful to the SNP, when it’s some distanced to an election he’s reasonably well balanced.

    When the previous Editor Andrew Walker left it was only a matter of time till the paper turned. For last few weeks there hasn’t been a pro SNP article but plenty talking up other parties.
    Similar thing is happening to the National.

    Would love to know, what persuaded the previous Editir to leave both papers, so suddenly.

  179. Brotyboy says:

    You never see that Rory Scothorne and Tom McFly in the same room, do you?

  180. Legerwood says:


    I knew that the SNP got the £1.5 billion back but that was not really relevant in the context of the comment re PFI.

    For example, in some years Labour could have paid cash for the ERI from their underspend AND still have money left. Instead they used PFI and ERI has to Labour under an annual bill of £50 million. How many nurses does that equate to? I am sure Ms Baillie could tell us. So PFI affected people more directly than just lumbering them with debt and their children and grandchildren.

    The total sum could have been used for some of the projects and significantly reduce the exposure to PFI debt.

    Of course Labour don’t want it mentioned for that reason and because the SNP got it back.

  181. Rock says:

    As I have posted many times, The Sunday Herald and The National don’t support independence.

    They are milking gullible independence supporters.

  182. schrodingers cat says:

    heedtracker says:

    One of the reasons I was tweaking my honourable friend schrodingers cat’s tale up there…..

    i enjoy a a good tweaking up there meus amicus….

    In Germany, Greens there succeeded in getting nuclear kicked out of Germany.

    it was alex salmond who block new nuke power stations by refusing planning permission, a power that the HOL is trying to remove.

    it just makes my point to the other indy parties that politics is no longer on the agenda, it is a pointless differentiation to make.

    the SH dont realise that politics is now on hold either. in normal situations, it is right and fitting for all parties to criticise the government in holyrood. but we are not in a normal situation, we are still in referendum campaigning mode and all criticism of the snp is seen as an attack on the indy movement.

    we didnt all come together during the indy ref to hold hands and sing kumbaya, we came together to win independence and that is still the goal.

    it is close now. ill be glad when the politics of this election is over, then the fun will start again. in 2 months we could find ourselve back in a full blown indyref2 campaign. all of us

    except neotroll of course
    did i forget to say …etc

  183. McDuff says:

    I`ll say it again DON`T buy the Herald or National as they do NOT I repeat NOT and never have supported independence.

  184. Molly says:


    Screeds has been written about ‘ both votes SNP ‘ and other pro Indy parties ( a bit democratic that ) but since you brought up the football …

    We all want Independence on this site and we all want a ‘ better ‘ Scotland but if one thing is abundantly clear – no one political party can ‘ give us ‘ a ‘ better independent country’ .

    We need to do that for ourselves.

    Today , Sky and The BBC had an opportunity to say , right very few players have played before in this fixture, circumstances have changed and it’s time to do things differently .

    We’ve had years of groups, reports , clubs and the Police trying to sort out the ‘ issues ‘ surrounding this fixture.

    Did they – of course not , they’d rather make their money on promoting that ‘ special atmosphere’ and winding up both sides.

    Don’t know about anyone else but our media are appalling ( not just at the political stuff) but actually thinking about what’s best for the game but then hey they don’t have to do they ?

    It’s about time pressure was brought on our broadcasters to up ‘ their game ‘ so to speak .

    Scotland is so much more than who governs us, it’s about what we as a society think is acceptable and three football fans getting paid to sit in a studio exalting the glory days adds nothing , weve heard it all before but

    I wonder if we had three victims of domestic abuse sitting in the studio, reflecting on their ‘ memories ‘ as the game was played in the background be quite as appealing . It would certainly be more enlightening.

    Treated like the Hunger games indeed

  185. Robert Louis says:

    During the referendum, the Sunday Herald benefited massively by taking a pro indy stance. Indy supporters took time to persuade, but gradually they put their faith in the Sunday Herald, as a lone voice amongst all the other rabid anti SNP, Anti Scotland, pro Britannia media Scotland is cursed with.

    Now, it seems the Sunday Herald will find, that such support and purchasing power does NOT like being betrayed. I have watched, as gradually, drip, drip, drip the articles in the SH, have shifted, until we have the utter anti SNP tripe we see today. What is depressing however, is that the article is SO ill-founded, and twisted. I honestly did believe that the SH was kind of the last bastion of decent journalism in Scotland. Now, I’m not so sure.

    Let’s be clear about the forthcoming election, some of the SNP constituency seats have small SNP majorities. Their is NO guarantee whatsoever that the SNP will win all constituencies, and anybody saying so, is either a fool or a liar.

    If you want ANY chance of a referendum you need to ensure the SNP have a majority, because Labour the Libdems and Tories have all made it clear they will block one.

    I am genuinely disappointed in the SH. This nonsense about second vote not SNP is the most insidious, divisive trick by unionists and their stooges, in order to split the pro indy vote. It will achieve nothing but that, and come the morning of 6th May, there may be some who have fallen for it, who will wake to find the SNP do NOT have a majority and so their can be no second referndum, and they will find their vote for ‘solidarity’ or ‘rise’ will have been wasted.

    It really is not not complex to grasp, if you want a second referendum you need to vote SNP twice. Anything else is a gamble, with appalling odds.

    For the record, once we have independence, I will likely vote for a more left wing party than the current SNP, but my priority is independence right now, and the ONLY party who can deliver it is the SNP. Not solidarity, not rise.

    It really is that freaking simple.

  186. Robert Louis says:

    Molly at 827pm,

    Excellent comment. Agree with every word.

  187. yesindyref2 says:

    Sorry, I was “talking” at cross-purposes.

    @Robert Louis
    All is explained once I read from Rev’s twitter that Peter Swindon, the writer of the distorted lying piece of crap, was on the campaign team for Ken MacIntosh Labour MSP.

    I never knew that, I feel so – dirty.

    Clean-up on aisle 5 – Sunday Heralds full of excrement.

  188. Skooshcase says:

    So, the Sunday Herald just put itself on an even faster track to its-soon-to-come extinction-event.

    They took us for mugs for long enough, with their pretendy, ‘We’re Scottish independence supporters, so we are!’ pish. When the cards are down, they have shown us their true unionist hand.


    Cheerio tae fuck. And GIRFUYz!

  189. Fred says:

    @ Robert Louis, top of the class!

    If anybody gets money for jam it’s Mc Whirter. Ian Bell, now there was a journalist!

  190. Iain More says:

    That is another nail in the coffin of the Sunday Herald. I stopped buying it ages ago. I could see the sleekit drift it was taking whilst purporting to be Pro Indy. I guess I didn’t expect any better when you have Tom Gordon and Hutcheon churning out crap.

  191. Robert J. Sutherland says:

    I have never been impressed with Paul Hutcheon when he has appeared on Scotland 2015/6, he always seems so limp and downbeat. (Which is not saying much, I suppose, since so many of the other “guests” on that prog also seem lacklustre.)

    But things seemed to start going wrong with the Sunday Herald and in its own way the National after Richard Walker’s abrupt departure. Socrates MacSporran @ 11:59 has already reminded us of that very unpleasant incident with Graham Spiers at the Herald. Maybe MacWhirter is also being leant on. Besides the personal allegiances of its staff, I’m beginning to wonder if pressure is being applied to the Herald Group as a whole from Unionist quarters, and is far more insidious and widespread than we realise.

    Or am I just being paranoid…?

  192. Ruby says:

    My problem with newspapers is not whether they support independence or not my problem is that they lie & they attempt to manipulate the public with their lies & distortions.

  193. Big Jock says:

    Don’t know if this sums up the average Rangers fan.

    Out for a run and happened upon four bams with Rangers tops on. They were drinking Buckie and staring at me. On my left one bam got in his car and pulled into me as I ran. Scraped my hand off his mirror as I jumped out of his way. No apology just fecking braindead morons.

  194. Returnofthemac says:

    After buying the Sunday Herald since it was first published I decided that last week was the last time I would buy it. Just another MSM rag. Saved myself £1.60 a week x 52 = £83.20 to Wings fighting fund.

  195. Al-Stuart says:

    I am fuming at ‘journalist’ Peter Swindon and the Sunday Herald.

    Any reporter worth their salt would know what forensic detail the Wings Over Scotland has on this.

    For Mr Swindon and the Sunday Herald to either be negligently lazy, or a Unionist stooge in mis-reporting this SNPx2 Vote issue is inexcusable.

    So until the Sunday Herald sort out there reversion to Unionist lying tactics, I’m with Returnofthemax above. Quote: After buying the Sunday Herald since it was first published I decided that last week was the last time I would buy it. Just another MSM rag. Saved myself £1.60 a week x 52 = £83.20 to Wings fighting fund.

    Anyone from the Sunday Herald care to respond to this point on this thread?

  196. Ghillie says:

    Ruby @11.25 Spot on!

  197. Fred says:

    It is a while since you bought it, it’s £1.70. 🙂

  198. heedtracker says:

    schrodingers cat says:
    17 April, 2016 at 7:55 pm
    heedtracker says:

    One of the reasons I was tweaking my honourable friend schrodingers cat’s tale up there…..

    i enjoy a a good tweaking up there meus amicus….

    But do you agree that the Green manifesto is not much different from the SNP’s? Which brings it back again to nice tory voters.

    Scottish Greens have made some very expensive decisions that are not actually Green, like blocking Andy Murray’s tennis centre or blocking Aberdeen’s 40 year wait for a bypass, opening up the whole of the north east of Scotland, a region who’s roads would make your average English driver burst out laughing.

    Vote Green, we’re nice, we say no to everything that might involve a JCB. That included blocking Trump.

    We either have no economic investment in areas like Aberdeen and the north east that clearly been purposely neglected by super heated London economic investment or stagger on as usual, with nice Greens saying NO to everything and anything that means change. Although, this from rancid the Graun CiF yesterday? explains a bit why Green are different.

    Yoon culture is really going after that SNP X2 like the UKOK bundles of delight they are

    Muscleguy SporadicWit 22h ago

    Ssshhh! The Greens may not be mentioned Mr Wit. Now we’ll have legions of SNP acolytes descending on you squawking about ‘gaming the system’ (meaning voting for another Yes party) and ‘SNP X2’ in defiance of electoral calculus.

    I shall most likely vote Green on the List, just as I’ve done the last few parliaments. A vote, not a ‘game’. A considered vote. We might just usher in multiparty Yes politics despite the SNP.

    But let’s not complicate matters for the poor Metropolitans, such complexities are too much for the likes of Mr White and they conflict with his hagiography of Tank Girl.

  199. Returnofthemac says:

    Apologies Fred for getting the price wrong. Hey! even more for Wings. I must have got mixed up with my 4 crispy rolls.

  200. Fred says:

    @ returnofthemac, ye’ve got me thinking, should I kick it into touch? the mag’s crap & McWhirter’s a lightweight! I just like a Sunday paper, but! That price will get you 6 croissants in Lidl. 🙂

  201. Returnofthemac says:

    Fred. I would kick it into touch. Since the sad death of Ian Bell and Richard Walker retiring, and as most Wingers are saying there has been a drift to mainstream I would go for the 6 croissants.
    Agreed, McWhirter blows with the wind.

  202. Robert Graham says:

    O/T Warning . I believe there is a Strike in progress south of the border well f/k me have I missed something ? . There seems to be some kind of News blackout , nothing to do with Torries eh ? They wouldn’t manipulate the Media would they ? . The Tory wet dream would be if some poor soul died and they could jump on the Doctors with the cry oh it’s their fault they are murderers killers uncaring b/rds , Cameron’s bunch of criminals wouldn’t do that would they ? .

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