Scottish Labour’s best man
After running a minor post about poll results this morning to pass the time between Brexit fiascos, we got a bit engrossed – as we’re wont to do now and again – in some stats. Because the Labour Party in Scotland has been in a seemingly inexorable slide into irrelevance for a good few years now, and seems completely unable to find itself a supremo capable of stopping the rot.
But with our customary diligence, we’ve discovered their secret star player.
Because somewhat to our surprise, it turns out that the most successful Scottish Labour leader of the past 20 years is… Alex Rowley.
It all started when out of sheer boredom we decided to make a graph of Labour’s polling figures (we measured by the Holyrood constituency vote, because it’s the truest representation of opinion and had the most data available, but the Westminster graph was pretty much the same) over the last few leaders:
(Methodology: the highest rating in each month in which there was at least one poll.)
And we immediately noticed something striking – the biggest single increase in the Scottish Labour vote in the last half-decade came when the party didn’t have a proper official leader at all.
Rowley took over as interim caretaker for three months after the resignation of Kezia Dugdale in August 2017, and during his brief term Scottish Labour shot up from 14% to 25% – a staggering leap of 11 points that hasn’t been bettered in recorded history.
(What Scotland Thinks only lists polling back to 2007).
Which was kinda weird, because it wasn’t a great time for him.
The investigation into Rowley’s alleged actions was controversially dropped by Labour after the woman who’d made the accusations complained about the nature of the party’s disciplinary process, but he resigned from the interim leader post anyway for the last week before Richard Leonard beat Anas Sarwar to become the current leader.
Nevertheless, in polling terms he remains the branch office’s most successful occupant of the role in the entire devolution era. To fill in the blanks before 2007 we measured election results rather than polls, and came up with the following table:
1. ALEX ROWLEY (Aug-Nov 2017, interim)
Inherited rating 14%, departing rating 25% – NET GAIN 11
2. IAIN GRAY (Sep 2008-May 2011)
Inherited 26%, departing 29% – NET GAIN 3
3. JOHANN LAMONT (Dec 2011-Oct 2014)
Inherited 26%, departing 28% – NET GAIN 2
4. ANAS SARWAR (Oct-Dec 2014, interim)
Inherited 28%, departing 28% – NEUTRAL
5. IAIN GRAY (May-Aug 2015, interim)
Inherited 24%, departing 21% – NET LOSS 3
6. JIM MURPHY (Dec 2014-May 2015)
Inherited 28%, departing 24% – NET LOSS 4
7. RICHARD LEONARD (Nov 2017-present)
Inherited 25%, departing 19% – NET LOSS 6
8. WENDY ALEXANDER (Aug 2007-Jun 2008)
Inherited 32%, departing 25% – NET LOSS 7
9. JACK McCONNELL (Aug 2001-Aug 2007)
Inherited 39%, departing 32% – NET LOSS 7
10. KEZIA DUGDALE (Aug 2015-Aug 2017)
Inherited 23%, departing 14% – NET LOSS 9
The good news for Rowley, of course, is that with no finding of guilt against his name he’s now very much back in the fold and in the frame as a respectable front-bencher and shadow cabinet member:
So if Scottish Labour want to revive their fortunes when they finally give up on trying to get anyone to notice who their current leader is, they know they’ve got someone with a great track record waiting in the wings to take the wheel.
And if you think that’s a bit far-fetched, folks, look at the options.
Didn’t Rowley support indy ref?
Jeezus. Johann Lamont was a high point???
Aye – Rowley didn’t oppose a 2nd IndyRef:
link to archive.is
Perhaps that explains the big increase.
Take note SLabour.
Basically, he’s a role model, is what you’re saying?
Hmmm, there’s correlation and there’s causation. That was also the time of the “Corbyn bounce”, was it not, when people thought for a while they had a new Messiah?
We know better now.
Analyse a piece of driftwood on the ocean and it will appear to have a direction of travel at times.
Waterlogged, discarded and aimless drifting covers both Scottish Labour and the driftwood.
[…] Wings Over Scotland Scottish Labour’s best man After running a minor post about poll results this morning to pass the time between […]
Why isn’t this story reported by the Unionist Media every day for a couple of years?
It would be if Mr Rowley was a member of SNP.
On another note, how I wish I’d counted the number of times UK Okaye Adams has to jump to another caller if they dare say anything positive about SNP.
Recently one knowledgeable chap was giving Westminster Parties a qualified pasting and mentioned the McCrone report and the oil fund we should have had just like Norway’s massive fund when she interrupts to say Green Party and Environmentalists
will demand we stop using that oil so no point mentioning it?
Over to the next Unionist caller?
Pathetic! The woman has earned £Millions from very easy TV and Radio jobs and still wants to help Westminster drive more kids into poverty and increase foodbank use.
Another privately educated prima donna looking down on us.
Discussing!
Its Leonard, not Lionheart! Whatah mistakah to makeah
Please stop it. No one can stand the sight of them. Torture. 3rd rejects. Holding Scotland back. There are no words for what they have done.
Kaye daughter of Labour. Owes her privileged position to Labour patronage. The BBC Scotland The Labour Mafia. Every word they utter is a lie. Lie, after lie, after lie. Controlled by Westminster. The Westminster propaganda channel. Thank goodness for the internet.
Oh how the mighty have fallen.
No dolt to blame bar themselves.
After Dugdale, the only way was up.
Any plans for her ill gotten £ Stu?
O/T according to the guardian “The Commons has now adjourned for the rest of the day because the leak of water into the chamber.”
never let it be said we didn’t warn them!
Support EPEP!
link to eurofree3.wordpress.com
How low can they go. The £Billionaire author who supports the Labour warmongering murderes. Who killed millions throughout the world and wasted £Trns in public money. Causing millions in be in poverty abd death. They want to do it again with Brexit.
The greedy Billionaire gets expenses from the assistant. The court costs will have been more than the reclaimed expenses. There could not be anything as mean as thst. Incomprehensible like the books. Hard as nails. Heartless. Vinidictive. Typical unionist supporter. Leave children in poverty. Disgusting.
Used to be anybody wearing a red rosette was guaranteed to be in, now that same rosette does the opposite
They destroyed their own party by being found out as Tories in disguise, now they’ve been found out as having no policies at all except being drones for the Tories whose policies are all anti Scottish
Labour are dead in Scotland and there aren’t even enough members left to bury them so they keep shoveling the dirt on top of themselves
Rowley poly, holy moly.
O/T (but not entirely)
The headline in today’s National is a nifty reminder of how we got to where we are now:
Brilliant. Couldn’t have said it better.
“Interim Caretaker Scottish Labour Accounting Unit”
It sounds very grand indeed.
Westminster find new source of water at the House of Commons!
This should help England when bottled water supplies from Perrier in France, Pellegrino from Italy and Highland Spring from an Independent Scotland can no longer be shipped in.
They are working on the title Peckham Spring!
Trigger will be the MD just as soon as his advisory role to the Tory Brexieers winds up.
ben madigan says:
4 April, 2019 at 3:44 pm
O/T according to the guardian “The Commons has now adjourned for the rest of the day because the leak of water into the chamber.”
The place has always been full of drips!
Commons leak? Nah! It is just Jeremy in his office crying over spilt chances.
I reckon Alec Rowley’s relative popularity is because more people than would care to admit are fascinated with the occult and are shit at names.
Labour ditching EU Freedom of Movement …how internationalist.
Meanwhile a must read from the political editor of the Financial Times. link to archive.is
Scotland voted in 2014 to stay in the union of the UK. It is hard to imagine it would do the same in another referendum. Five years ago, unionism offered proud Scots two supplementary identities. They could be at once British and European. After Brexit it will be either/or. The 1707 union with England handed Scotland an international role as a partner in empire. Outside of the EU it will be cut off from the rest of Europe.
And no wonder Alex Bell was sacked as an SNP advisor when he claims in Press and Journal that Indy Scotland would have to join the Euro.
It’s got to be be all the ordure spouted in the HoC that has blocked the drains and overflowed surely.
O/T
….”A small group of Conservatives in the Lords are now trying to talk the bill out in order to ensure it runs out of time. They’re led by Michael Forsyth, the failure’s failure who was so overwhelmingly rejected by the electorate in 1997 when he led the Scottish Conservatives. Michael spent the EU referendum stomping about the TV debating shows demanding an exit from the EU because it’s terribly unfair it was that our laws are made by unelected place-persons that we can’t vote out of office. Michael doesn’t do irony.”….
WGD:- ‘The tyranny of the rejects.’
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
O/T
Good article from Newsnet
link to newsnet.scot
“The Commons has now adjourned for the rest of the day because the leak of water into the chamber.”
Pish, more like.
It’s a dead cat bounce on an otherwise downwards trajectory.
A dead cat bounce is a temporary recovery from a prolonged decline. Even a dead cat bounces if dropped from high enough.
Sorry for the early OT but Rev check this out you have to listen to this guff from Jeanette Findlay from fans against criminalisation who was on BBC radio Scotland earlier from about 17.36 ffs unbelievable
link to bbc.co.uk
Some light reading for Alex Rowley and all politicians.
link to idea.int
Better link here from 1.26 min in
link to bbc.co.uk
Sorting out structural misogyny is one of the tasks we need to address, if we wish to bequeath a future to our grandchildren.
Challenge the erosion of democratic and social values, and address gender inequality, racial intolerance and xenophobia through the promotion of human rights, equality and trade union rights for sustainable societies
link to ei-ie.org
Apologies for this O/T post but this is important.
I’ve been catching up on today’s several threads and came across something written by ‘Alan of Neilston’ on the thread below that entitled “.To James Kelly ..” Alan wrote:
”Hello Nana thanks for the post 4th april regarding the reduction in Cervical Cancer in Young Women. I have been noticing over the past number of years at the alarming increase in OBESITY in young women and put this down to the uptake of the HPV Vaccination programme introduced in 2008. I refer to the Paper produced in the web site http://WWW.Vaccines.Net which sites a research paper that claims “Vaccines not Diet” are Causing the increase in Obesity in young women.”…
This post received this response from ‘Petra’ on 4 April, 2019 at 5:01 pm
“@ Alan of Neilston says at 11:05 am ….Thanks for posting on here Alan. Interesting and worth following up.”
I can’t let this slip by without comment but placing it BTL on the previous thread it may get lost.
By all means follow up but can I respectfully urge anyone ‘interested’ in this doing so with rigour. There has been far too much pseudo science used to scare folk about vaccinations in the USA and UK.
There are longitudinal data sets on obesity for Scotland before and after the introduction of the HPV vaccine; there are similar longitudinal data sets for other parts of the UK and other countries that have not had this programme of vaccination. These data sets can be analysed and compared statistically – bearing in mind always that correlation, if there even is any correlation, is not necessarily causation.
And I would STRONGLY advise looking into the credentials of the author of the paper referred to by Alan of Neilston, one J. Bart Classen. I strongly recommend doing ALL of this before giving any credence whatsoever to Alan of Neilston’s (IMHO irresponsible) assertion.
Naivety at WM. They appear to believe an extension to A50 is their’s for the asking.
The EU will want a good reason to extend – some hope that it will achieve something!
Lot’s of none too subtle messages that an extension just to continue the WM bun fight won’t happen. They have a week to either pass the WA or present a credible alternative plan.
Can’t see it happening. Stock up on bog roll and tinned fruit!
I think it is Alex Rowley’s polished rhetoric and scintillating wit that makes him stand out from the many.
Stu will be goading SLab to make him leader again. Surely it’s time for vacancy?
http://fansagainstcriminalisation.com
Mike Robertson at 620. Spot on about the sectarianism supporting fan group above.
Any real football fan from any club would disassociate themselves from the nonesense trotted out by their spokesperson on the BBC link.
I meant “a” vacancy. But vacancy fits too. Vacant and vacuous, SLab leadership is a vacant lot.
Alex Rowley…need I point out to my fellow ‘Wingers’ has been found guilty of precisely nothing……….just like Alex Salmond.
The similarities probably end there but nevertheless…..they are both innocent until proven guilty.
O/T
Shame on the UK government!
Serbia advises citizens to avoid travelling to UK due to ‘major political chaos’
link to independent.co.uk
Alex Rowley is the only Labour MSP I have any respect for the rest are just a shower of shit as far as I’m concerned,
Alex always seemed to me to a decent guy deep down in spite of the company he keeps but it was very noticeable to me that exchanges between him & Nicola during FMQ’s tended to be more civil & constructive, now that could have been because he knew he didn’t have the oratory skill to cross swords with her but he seemed to be lacking the same tribal hatred of the SNP so ingrained in his fellow branch office colleagues.
The Labour Party in UK was always just an establishment construct to ensnare/delude and seduce the left and centre left of the population,
it gives people the pretence of an option from Tory/Liberal,
the UK Labour Party was founded over 100 years ago and we still have the same Eton/Oxbridge elite running the UK.
O/T
@ stewartb says at 6:32 pm … …”There has been far too much pseudo science used to scare folk about vaccinations in the USA and UK.”..
stewartb I responded to Alan of Neilston’s post (vaccines / obesity) by stating, ”Thanks for posting on here Alan. Interesting and worth following up”, which means exactly that: follow it up and check it out not just dismiss it out of hand OR believe everything that you read. I would also imagine that if this is another case of ”vaccine scaremongering” there will be numerous experts at the ready to dispute and repudiate the claims just as they did with the assertions in relation to MMR vaccines / autism.
Conversely many experts are producing scientific papers relating to vaccine induced immune overload which are well worth considering too, that the majority of vaccines given to the poor in Third World countries are laced with mercury preservative and of course there is the argument that the motive behind promoting certain medicines is more about putting profit before patient wellbeing.
link to healthimpactnews.com
On the other hand statistics show that there is 1 in 1 million deaths from the MMR vaccine (alone) versus 1 in 1000 – 2000 deaths from the actual disease. We also know that vaccines have saved millions of lives over time and eradicated certain conditions altogether.
link to cdc.gov
It’s an emotive subject and bit of a minefield overall but not one that I would imagine would influence Wingers who are well used to double and treble checking data.
link to independent.ie
Petra
I’ve put a few more similar links on the previous thread. They’re currently in moderation but they might interested you when/if they are cleared.
Medicine, Media Communication and Ethical Aspects
link to ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
“Mandela Effect” must be in action as I have never seen or heard of Alex Rowley before, nevermind being leader.
A very good point in Russell Bruce’s piece in Newsnet which is missed by a lot of our support. A damaged England is not in Scotland’s interest and it says tons about Nicola Sturgeon’s judgement that she is factoring this in despite the siren voices of some of our support who would apparently relish a disastrous “no deal” (which we may yet still have inflicted on us).
“The Scottish Government and SNP MPs cannot stand by and watch the conflagration without attempting to rescue England from itself because Scotland’s economy will be severely damaged by Brexit, whatever happens.
Scotland leaves the EU with the UK as the UK is the member state. We might not be able to save England from its delusions but try we must, because collateral damage will be inflicted on Scotland. SNP MPs have gained a lot of respect with some in other parties by their willingness to explore possible solutions. More important. the team have won admirers beyond the Commons with increased understanding and goodwill towards independence that was not the case in 2014.”
O/T:
I leave this without comment:-
link to youtube.com
Petra.
The anti-vaccine lot would have been seriously pissed off at the success story of the HPV vaccine.
That’s my reading of that post.
And why I quickly pointed out the dubious nature of the site to which it referred
By pointing people in this direction.
link to archive.is
You could not make it up, when are we free of all this madness.
I predict that it is a no deal Brexit on the 12th of April and Scotland declares to the world that the act of union is over and the treaty is null and void.
Scotland deserves better and we can be much more than England ‘s last colony.
Petra
I put those links on the wrong thread, doh, they are on the “James Kelly” post.
@ Nana says at 7:21 pm … ”Shame on the UK government! Serbia advises citizens to avoid travelling to UK due to ‘major political chaos.’’
link to independent.co.uk
Tragic isn’t it and one wonders how many people the Westminster cabal are going to put off not only working here but visiting the country. On the other hand this will probably suit the insular crazies down south. Westminster created havoc (continues to) right across Asia which impacted on Europe and then decided to pull up the wee Englander drawbridge: and contain us in Scotland too. There’s no end to the decimation and misery that despicable crowd have spawned and to my mind they won’t be happy until they’ve screwed up the entire planet.
Fleeing migrants has led to a rise in neo-Nazism across Europe with many countries erecting walls and border fences now. Thanks, in no small part, to Warmongering Westminster.
”For example, Hungary has a 110-mile long, four-metre high razor wire wall some 500 metres away from the Serbian border. It plans to do the same on its borders with Austria and Slovenia. Austria is building a border fence with Slovenia. Slovenia wants a wall on its border with Croatia. German supporters of the anti-immigrant Pegida movement have established a “human wall” on the Czech border to stop migrants from entering. Bulgaria is building a 6.5-mile wall on the Turkish border. The French are reinforcing the wall at Calais. Morocco has recently been building a five-yard high razor-wire fence around the Spanish enclaves of Melilla and Ceuta with Slovakia building new walls that segregate the Roma communities from everyone else.”
link to businessinsider.com
…………………………………
I haven’t noticed Boris on here recently but reckon he won’t mind me posting his excellent article on Alex Rowley.
..”22 May 2015 – Alex Rowley: Labour in Scotland must become the party of Home Rule or Labour will not survive.
..”We need to become the party of Scottish Home Rule and our opening salvo to Westminster and the UK Labour Party must be that the current relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK is untenable and will require radical change.”..
…”The party should exist not to oppose the SNP but to address the issues in our communities and bring about a more inclusive and prosperous country. The attack-style politics is not working. Where we can work with the SNP, such as finding a long-term solution to funding local government, then we should, and where we think their approach will be damaging, such as ending the Barnett formula, then we should make the case. Where we believe the SNP is not delivering, we must put forward our alternative, not simply attack their failure.”…
link to caltonjock.com
@ mike cassidy 8.47 p.m.
“SilverDarling says:
4 April, 2019 at 5:48 pm
@Petra 5.01 pm
That is from the website of JB Classen, a known anti-vaxxer
‘John Barthelow Classen is an American immunologist and anti-vaccinationist. He received his M.D. from the University of Maryland, Baltimore in 1988, his M.B.A. from Columbia University in 1992 and obtained his medical license in October 1997.[1][2] He is best known for publishing research concluding that vaccines, in particular, the Hib vaccine, cause insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus,[3] a hypothesis he proposed based on experiments he conducted on mice in 1996.[4] His views are disputed and considered unverified.’ From Wikipedia
He is well known in medical circles and I would urge extreme caution.”
I posted the above in reply to Petra on the other thread. There is probably nothing that will put off young girls more than the threat that something will make them fat and I consider the original post suggesting the obesity link verging on irresponsible.
As you note the author of the papers cited has a colourful reputation. His work was discredited around 1998 and there have been at least 2 Cochrane reviews finding nothing to support his ideas.
We really don’t want to be promoting this stuff.
@ mike cassidy says at 8:47 pm …. ”Petra – The anti-vaccine lot would have been seriously pissed off at the success story of the HPV vaccine. That’s my reading of that post. And why I quickly pointed out the dubious nature of the site to which it referred
By pointing people in this direction.”
link to archive.is
Thanks for the link Mike and yes the anti-vaccine brigade must be feeling pretty miffed right now.
……………………………
@ CameronB Brodie says at 9:06 pm – ”Petra – I put those links on the wrong thread, doh, they are on the “James Kelly” post.”
Thanks Cameron. I’m racing out the door, lol. Will check them out later.
CameronB Brodie and Petra @ 8.12pm
I saw the comment on a previous thread about the HPV/obesity connection but decided to ignore it – my blood pressure
Last week there was a news item on BBC 6 o’clock news about the increase in measles cases in England, just under 1000 cases, and the decrease in the uptake of measles vaccinations – 87.5% if I remember correctly. The target is 95%.
Doctors were concerned and they felt more had to be done via social media to get the positive message for vaccinations across. Social media seems to be the preferred message platform for the anti-vaccers and it is causing really serious problems especially in the USA. Some states have had to declare states of emergency in relation to measles outbreaks.
The day after the BBC report, 26th March, ISD Scotland published the vaccination rates for a raft of childhood programmes in Scotland – see below. Across the board they were on target or better or just below. However I think NHS Scotland, like their counterparts in England, will have to keep on top of anti-vaccers and their campaign of which the comment this morning was an example.
I also did some checking on the HPV uptake and Scotland has a higher rate than in England where rates seem to vary a bit between regions.
By the way Cameron I found the link you posted on another thread to the book review about Science Communications and Ethics interesting
Here is the immunisation data for Scotland
“”Apart from rotavirus vaccine, over 95% of children had received each routine immunisation by the time they were 12 months in Scotland in 2018.
*Uptake of the complete two dose course of rotavirus vaccine by 12 months of age was 92.8% in 2018, a decrease from 93.4% in 2017.
*The national target is for 95% uptake of one dose of the MMR vaccine by five years of age; this has been met since 2009 and in 2018 the figure was 96.6%.
*MMR vaccine is first offered at 12 to 13 months of age. In Scotland uptake was 94.2% by 24 months of age with variation shown across the NHS Boards in the map.
*By 24 months of age, 94.6% of children had received the Hib/MenC booster vaccine and 94.7% had received the Pneumococcal Conjugate Vaccine (PCV) booster.
*Uptake of the MenB booster vaccine by 24 months is reported for the first time this year and was 93.7%.
*Children from the more deprived areas were less likely to take up the vaccines than children in the less deprived areas.
*Across the reporting ages of 12 months, 24 months, five years and six years, there are a total of 17 measures of vaccine uptake. There were small decreases in the uptake rates for 14 of the 17 measures in 2018, compared with the previous year. Uptake rates fell by between 0.2 and 1.1 percentage points.””
People can die from mumps, measles etc. Children have died. Gone unto a coma and died without immediate response. Many people do not realise how serious these diseases can be along with the dangerous affects. Hearing and sight. Children have died. Mumps, chickenpox etc can be dangerous for adults who have not been immuned. Pregnant women etc.
Autism is a different condition which can be easily helped with often relatively easy help put in place with awareness. Diversity awareness.
I enjoy reading CameronB Brodie. Perhaps he can post some of his famouslinks to prove the working conditions of the EU poor have been enhanced since the EEC was formed. And another link to prove the EU has no responsibility for the food banks and capitalist failure in EU countries. Another link to prove an EU ruling class does not exist and has not profitted immensely since the EEC/EU was formed.
Shingles (chickenpox) can affect older people really badly.
Ach its O/T and not Labour, but having listened to Tomkins the now, I know they are all bereft o the wee bit sense they had.
The Tories didny bring about Brexit, the people did by voting for it… In a legally conducted referendum.
Glossing over the “legalities” – the correct and proper referendum Tomkins reckons the “British” people had, which delivered a leave vote, is quite correct and proper for him to oppose and the “no deal” that goes with it; which apparently the correct and proper representatives of the electorate are seeking to bring about.
Aye, it’s all right and proper unless ye dinnae get whit ye want richt enough. He’ll be right behind Scotland then eh? Just the same as the Labour Party are richt ahint us…
Waiting on a bus fae Buchanan comin roon the tap o Renfield street tae boot us under it.
The basturts.
Ken500. 70 year olds can now get a jab to negate the effects of shingles. Not a cure but on the NHS.
Mad Unionist
You want that? Not a problem but not right now as it is not the issue.
Mad Unionist
Just so you don’t think I’m avoiding the issue, fill your boots.
Europe 2020 indicators – poverty and social exclusion
link to ec.europa.eu
Working poor in Europe
link to eurofound.europa.eu
In-Work Poverty in the EU
link to digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu
Working Poverty in the European Union and its Main Determinants: an Empirical Analysis
inzeko.ktu.lt/index.php/EE/article/viewFile/6339/4243
O/T
just saw this
If you do NOT know that Scotland’s new “The Constitution” has been sitting in Holyrood for 2 weeks, BLOCKED by just ONE unionist who refuses to permit is to be DISCUSSED, let alone PASSED, GET READING…
link to twitter.com
and these
Last week I started a petition at Westminster that the Treaty of Union was no longer fit for purpose and to dissolve the union. Today the UK government have said its not up to them its up to us and I have it in writing on headed paper.
link to twitter.com
Anyone else get an E Mail from the Westminster petitions committee like this? (Check the text in the next tweet) We rejected the petition you supported – “The Treaty of Union 1707 is no longer fit for purpose and Dissolve The Union”. 1/2
link to twitter.com
@Mad Unionist said
‘And another link to prove the EU has no responsibility for the food banks and capitalist failure in EU countries. ‘
The EU is not responsible for welfare polcies in any of the 28 independent countries who are members,and has limited influence on macro economic policy.
British food banks are entirely the work of your britnat idols.
Capella says: at 6:45 pm
“I think it is Alex Rowley’s polished rhetoric and scintillating wit that makes him stand out from the many.”
———————-
🙂 🙂 I’m still laughing at that 2 hours later…!! Very good
Nana @10.26
I guess it will be the Corpus of Law that is holding back the discussion mrs than any other bit of it, but seeing how it’s purpose is to enshrine the powers of Holyrood and protect them from the Tory power grab if T May can get her deal signed through.
Lots at stake!
@ Graf Midgehunter – second only to James Sit Down! Kelly. 🙂
@Ken 500
Autism is not easily helped
Be more careful making your medical scattergun statements, remember some of us know what we’re talking about
dakk
It’s sad that the obvious has to be pointed out. The EU has no responsibility for austerity in the UK, that is down to Westminster/Whitehall having been captured by neo-liberal ideology and practice.
link to bbvaopenmind.com
Open Policy Making in the EU
Lessons and Opportunities
link to demsoc.org
Monitoring the implementation of EU law: tools and challenges
link to europarl.europa.eu(2017)596799_EN.pdf
Interactions between Climate Policies: Examples from Europe
link to climatepolicyinfohub.eu
What a show from David Lammy! Let’s offer him Scottish citizenship.
Ok, I confess, i did this out of curiosity, more than anything, – well mibbe because of a spat between a few folk here, well it kinda got my head down a bit, together with this waiting, this interminable brexit, anyway I’m so glad i did it. It ferr cheered me right up, so it did.
And what did I do?
Have a gander at this lot, I kid you not. Wings is an absolute paragon of well-mannered and polite discourse compared to this…
link to bellacaledonia.org.uk
a quick 5 min scan read of the comments section and you’ll be cured of your depression – guaranteed!
Can we have a debate between Alec Rowley and James Kelly. The first to complete an understandable sentence to be declared the winner.
Any judge still awake also qualifies for a prize !
Dr Jim says:
4 April, 2019 at 11:10 pm
@Ken 500
Autism is not easily helped
Be more careful making your medical scattergun statements, remember some of us know what we’re talking about
Well said Dr Jim.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
4 April, 2019 at 11:21 pm
What a show from David Lammy! Let’s offer him Scottish citizenship.
Yup totally agree.
In far contrast to that other tumshie Charles posh git- wot a dobber he is!
@Frank Gillougley
Was a bit of an eye opener right enough.
CameronB Brodie. All you say in your links may be true and open to question. However the EU are not interested in the poor and simply because the poor are not an issue for the EU elites. The EU are like a shadow of the Roman Empire and will Fall.
Ffs on the brillo political program, there talking about if the UK leaves the EU and rejoins and Portaloo says we would have to join the Euro, think they would be better getting btl commentators on Wos on these programs at least we would be well informed.
Here here. As someone living with an autistic kid I can tell you it’s not ‘easy’.
Not unrewarding. But not easy.
And David Lammy is a find. Cometh the hour cometh the man.
We is the UK as were still in it sadly
Frank Gillougley
re. that bella article. I suggested a while back that the indy movement is a living and breathing “differential oppositional consciousness”, i.e. it is grass-roots, so is “organic”, multi-ideological in nature, and is directed towards a common cause. I also pointed out a while back that this is roughly what the New Right have managed with Brexit, though I probably didn’t point out that this was achieved through an “inorganic” process (dark money and weapons-grade pysops campaigning techniques).
So for all [c]onservative voting fans of “organic government”, Brexit should be as appealing as Stalinist programs. Perhaps that is why the media are selling it so hard and the MPs are endorsing constitutional change on the back of criminal activity and the amplified voice of white British nationalism? Apparently timed so as to leave Scotland with the minimum of time in which to respond to Westminster’s intended abuse of constitutional power.
“There are elements within English political movements which are far more radical and subversive than anything in Scotland.Making alliances across radical forces in common cause for the creative dismantling of the British state is now more possible, and essential, than ever before. As we saw with the use of Loyalist groups in both the independence referendum and recently in London, this is precisely what the far right and the forces of unionism do, they enlist cultural symbols and the threat of physical violence from elements they would normally deem to be beyond the pale.” – Mike Small
Mad Unionist
You live in the real world, right, so I don’t think you are a fan of the way things are. So do you think things will get better without adopting a different approach to government? Do you see that happening without a written constitution? Do you see England clamouring for progressive change? Do you see Westminster capable of codifying a written British constitution that satisfies all vested stakeholders?
Sure you’re on the right team?
Labour hold the Newport West by election in South Wales with the Tories second but UKIP beat Plaid for 3rd place
video
link to stv.tv
link to thoughtcontrolscotland.com
link to randompublicjournal.com
link to grumpyscottishman.wordpress.com
link to irishtimes.com
link to politico.eu
An excellent clip and interview by Emma Barnett of Tory Minister Robin Walker. Shows just what a sham May’s offer of talks with Co
link to twitter.com
Guardian podcast recorded on Friday just before Vote Leave dropped it’s appeal & admitted its crimes. It’s @shahmiruk’s story in his own words, a story the BBC has never let him tell. Thank you @GuardianAnushka for giving him the time & space.
No point archiving
link to theguardian.com
link to irishnews.com
link to blogs.lse.ac.uk
Germany is on to the greatest fraud in British political history, it’s all in here, Leave’s lies, illegal spending, dubious companies, Banks’ dodgy diamond mines, Farage; even a cameo by @shahmiruk
Dubious financiers
Who pulls the strings behind Brexit?
link to zdf.de
In Britain, the incredible embezzlement of public money that would have financed Al Qaida
According to a Sunday Times investigation , foreign gangs have for several years organized a huge social and tax fraud in the country, including to fund Al Qaida. Several billion pounds were diverted. And during all these years, the British tax office has refrained from informing MI5.
Use translator
link to lefigaro.fr
Petra at 805pm,
Sadly, anti vaccers are a sign of the times. The main morons behind it, make millions (yes millions) from revenue generated from their youtube channels. Just like people who make videos claiming the earth is flat (it is pretty obvious it isn’t), or the apollo missions to the moon were fake (they were very real). It is about making money. They care nothing for whether vaccines are good or not (they are), they are in it to make money. Sadly, however, stupid people believe what they say, and make them richer.
I don’t think anybody should share links to their dangerous, cynical nonsense.
First lot of links, I got duplicate comment message, third lot in moderation, fourth & fifth failed.
I’ve no idea what is going on.
link to theneweuropean.co.uk
Panama Papers investigation helps recover more than $1.1 billion around the world
link to mcclatchydc.com
link to middleeasteye.net
House ignores Trump’s veto threat, passes resolution to end support for Saudi-led war in Yemen
link to twitter.com
link to iscot.scot
link to indyscotnews.com
Donald Tusk will tell EU to back Brexit ‘flextension’ for UK
link to archive.is
Tried posting in lots of three, no joy.
Here’s a quick round up
Mark Francois is the biggest contributer to the ERG & its Deputy Chair – he paid £1000s to fund the group then put it through expenses so the taxpayer has to pick it up.
T May has bought a house in Ireland!
As it stands NO British food products or animals could be exported to the EU in the event of a No Deal Brexit, according to EU officials. It’s because the UK still hasn’t passed enough legislation for the EU to recognise it as a third country
Boris had a car crash interview with Peston, showed his complete ignorance of the EU
The partners of military personnel no longer need to be married to live in service accommodation after Highland MP Drew Hendry took up their plight with the Ministry of Defence.
Talk of a devo lock for devolved parliaments, which some say is merely a strategy to scare Brexiteers opponents into backing
her deal.
There are some links in moderation so check back later especially for the Guardian podcast discussing vote leave.
Now I’m away to have this computer checked over by an expert.
There are twice as many people on the autistic spectrum in prison as other prisoners. Despite being a much lower % of the population. People an the spectrum can be vulnerable without proper support. They can be incited into doing things by others without realising the full consequences. Manipulated. That is why the named person for vulnerable people in important. Something should be done about vulnerable people in prison. Especially those who should not be there but they should be receiving proper support. They are more vulnerable to suicide. A higher (pro rata) suicide rate. They often discuss it.
Everything that has been invented in the world is by people on the spectrum with exceptional talents. Deviant from the norm. Silicon Valley is full of people on the spectrum. Wizards with computers and programming. Highly talented at maths, science etc, Music sports, special interests talents above the norm. They can be excessive and obsessive above the norm. That is why they need guidance. To guide talents into healthy occupation not regressive. Some are vulnerable to manipulation and can be susceptible to malicious persuasion,without realising the full consequences.
Better guidance can help. Small elements can change. Better diagnoses. Putting in strategies. Cushions on chairs, a daily timetable that can be followed. Ear defenders for high pitched noise. Any different daily timetable changes discussed and explained. People in the spectrum often appreciate routine. Access to a trampoline. Excercise. computers. Warning given off putting loud noises if possible. Alarms etc. Quiet areas in public places which are less stressful.Quiet areas in schools. They like to be in a quiet enclosed space. A classroom instead of open place. Too many distractions, busy with lots going on. A tent can be used in the classroom for a quiet area.
Police should be informed of some reactions. Giving some empathy. Many people on the spectrum did not appreciate others touching them. They feel it is intrusive and can act in a negative way, unless approached properly with respect. Otherwise they can fall into a meltdown of distress. If symptoms are not recognised. They want to be in a quiet place to prevent overload. Exercise is good for everyone.
People on the spectrum are talented, lovely, loving people just like everyone else. It just takes a wee bit of consideration. They can be funny with a good sense of humour. Liking jokes. They just need a bit of extra consideration. Like many people.
@HUYFD 01:32
and low turnout, even for byelection, of 37%. How many for Euro elections? Single figures? The voters are weary of Wexit. A 12 month extension and they’ll all be sound asleep.
Anglicised Monmouthshire, not exactly PC territory.
Hannon/brexiteer was diverting and embezzling €Thousands of EU funds to right wing discussion groups and conference. Off on a jolly. He has to pay a lot back.
Farague has been embezzling €Funds for years and having to pay it back. He has illegally not put in political accounts or expenses for years. The electoral commission not fit for purpose. Tory grandees are protecting him.
Fraser Nelson’s wife is Swedish. A migrant family. Hypocrite. Lawson lives in France. A non Dom? not paying taxes? Like the rest of them.
A big shout out for Business for Scotland with loads of economic facts to dispel Unionist myths.
link to businessforscotland.com
Why does Scottish press go to Scotland In Union for quote on every Independence issue but NEVER Business for Scotland on UK or Scottish economic issues?
Here’s that ‘april fool’ story of May buying a house in Ireland.
Clever Irish to publish it on 3 April to give it more credibility!
link to archive.is
link to archive.is
Conflicting signals from Donald Tusk and Guy Verhofstadt over a longer extension to Brexit. Maybe it’s political “good cop, bad cop”, because paradoxically, I don’t sense division or weakening of the EU’s position.
I do wonder however the extent to which “bad cop” Guy Verhofstadt and his stern rhetoric against populism and the extent to which right wing ideologies are dangerous represents a far wider concern in Europe than the “good cop” persona of Donald Tusk, who talks up the prospect of longer extension with all the empathy and patience of a hostage negotiator.
“Drop the Brexit and release the Irish hostages”, he shouts down the megaphone,… but where are the Scots in this tense standoff?
My spidey senses are telling me the issue of forthcoming EU elections is a redder line than many believe. They will not open Europe up to generation of Boris Johnson / Farage type wreckers of EU ideology.
Europe is not offering the UK leniency through Donald Tusk. He is just stalling with promises that the helicopter is coming, but meanwhile Europe is screening the UK, assessing it, fishing to learn it’s intent, but the building is surrounded… just one wrong move and it’s all over. There is nowhere to run.
If we want to get out of this in one piece, hopefully be released together with the Irish, then we need to stop hiding under the counter and make it known exactly who’s side we’re on.
Maybe I watch too many US cop dramas… but it is approaching crunch time, and there isn’t a helicopter coming.
I was surprised and intrigued by these findings, with Stuart’s usual excellent analysis and helpful wee graph of Scottish Labour’s track record of their leaders. Alex Rowley was indeed their best man.
The timing of the allegations against him, when he was caretaker leader, is intriguing. His ex partner was quoted as saying she tried to keep it private…I wonder what went wrong there. Mr Rowley was suspended as a direct result of the publicity. Kezia Dugdale, having just resigned as leader, and competing with Jim Murphy to be the worst leader ever, was quick to condemn Alex Rowley re the allegations. As if she had/has any credibility left. She doesn’t seem to know the difference between believing and knowing. She does however seem to know the havoc such allegations can wreak.
Alex Rowley is not opposed to an Indy Ref 2 and seems to have tried to reach out to Yes voting Labour supporters and that Labour needs to stop their SNP badness and start doing grown up politics. Hence his success and popularity, in my opinion.
A wee appendix to my previous comment…
Right now Scotland is wearing an “I’m with stupid” tee shirt.
We Scots think it makes our intentions clear and all the emphasis is on the word “stupid”,… but Europe is more focussed on the word “with”, and our intentions are anything but clear.
The EU has ALL the cards, Breeks.
The cowardly, dumb fools at WM handed the last one over when they strongly and repeatedly indicated they cannot stomach a hard Brexit. Now they have strung themselves by the short and curlies. Hoisted by their own petard. Dumb fools. They are desperate to head off UKIP and Farage’s Vanity Party, and so will push for BRINO (Brexit on name only) to try and save face. Will it fool the English nationalists? Mmmmmm – good luck with that one.
Slowly slowly, catchy monkey (or fish)!
The EU is like an expert angler with a big, powerful (but stupid) Brexit fish on the line. If played carefully, there is a good chance the UK will become a vassal state. Following the rules but with no influence. The worst possible outcome for the UK. Of course, with the best of care, the big stupid fish can still by chance break loose at the last minute.
Will the Brexit fish be the one that got away? Who knows. We will see very shortly. I don’t think this particular fish really wants to break away – it doesn’t know what it wants which is the crux of the matter.
We are where we are. IMO it should either be full remain or full out – this half-way, useless attempt to save face will be a disaster.
@Luigi says: 5 April, 2019 at 9:31 am:
The EU has ALL the cards, Breeks.
” … We are where we are. IMO it should either be full remain or full out – this half-way, useless attempt to save face will be a disaster.”
There is, Luigi, absolutely no doubt that any form of the UK leaving the EU will be extremely bad for England, Wales and N.I. but will be a disaster for Scotland. No matter if there is a deal or a no deal the entire United Kingdom will be worse off and even the non-United Kingdom bits of Britain will suffer.
There is only one choice that avoids the United Kingdom being worse off and that is going by Westminster’s own figures. Thus the only way to avoid becoming worse of is to cancel leaving and remaining inside the EU but even that will now carry a penalty for the United Kingdom for how can the United Kingdom avoid a great loss of credibility from all other member states?
So there it is – there is only one choice – stay in the EU or we will suffer.
There might be a GE coming . . . So what does The National start doing . . . . A steady stream of pro Green / Environmental articles.
Scotland’s got a tiny proportion of the worlds oil reserves , but we’re the only country in the world that’s not to benefit from them.
Given that we live in the UK. we are lucky to have The National, but it could be much more usefull than an entertainment for the converted.
Keep supporting the paper.
@CBB
I hope you read Nanas post from iscot ‘re ‘framing ‘ and try and understand just how much time and effort and no doubt money the establishment has spent on convincing people that the UK does not have a written Constitution. The contrary evidence is there if you care to see, not least in parliaments constraint in making law for both RUK and Scotland. Anyway, off to the golf.
@Breeks says: 5 April, 2019 at 9:28 am:
” … Right now Scotland is wearing an “I’m with stupid” tee shirt.
We Scots think it makes our intentions clear and all the emphasis is on the word “stupid”,… but Europe is more focussed on the word “with”, and our intentions are anything but clear.”
Who are these, “our”, you speak about, Breeks?
The SNP’s intentions are very clear indeed, “Scotland will not be dragged out of the EU against the wishes of the people of Scotland”. Is several times right there recorded in the Hansard records of the events in the House of Commons. How much clearer could it be?
So I ask you again, “Who are these ‘our’ you speak about and obviously include yourself as among”?
Breaks says
Brilliant. I’d love to see a cartoon of Hamish and John Bull. Hamish of course is wearing that tee shirt.
Hope Chris Cairns agrees it’s a good one.
While I don’t have any problem with Labour politicians or their voters genuinely being persuaded into supporting Scottish independence.
I was always suspicious of Rowley’s motives when he announced that he wouldn’t stand in the way of a second indy ref.
To me it was his way of attracting yes voters to Labour and damaging the SNP and the wider yes movement.
It should also be remembered that Rowley was known here in Fife as Brown’s boy.
To extend or not to extend
Well if the Brits do secure an extension that’s long Jacob Rees Mogg and crew have already said they will do everything in their power to disrupt the EUs deliberations during that period, so bad for the EU
If it’s a short extension then no deal is right back on the table again no matter what the HOL says, and that’s bad for everybody
You can’t trust the Brits, that’s one thing every country knows so what do you do about them
On the one hand the short extension plays into the hands of the Brits because it doesn’t allow Scotland and Northern Ireland enough time to sort our divorce proceedings from them out
The long extension is a risk to the EU of disruption but the end result is a possible remain or better deal in a British change of government plus Scotland and Northern Ireland both have time for their respective referendums to leave the UK and be fully integrated within the EU leaving England with the even bigger problem of having to mollify their population into remaining within the EU because without Scotlands assets England on its own has nothing to sell and can’t afford to go it alone without co-operation with some entity or another
I reckon the Brits will favour a short extension in the hope of removing the ability of Scotland and Northern Ireland the opportunity of building their divorce cases
The can’t and won’t have another vote on the EU because they then haven’t a leg of any kind to stand on in their silly refusal of a section 30 order for Scotland, even though we don’t technically require one under the 1973 Scotland act, because the Brits are pretending that doesn’t exist
It’s a real conundrum, but there is one certainty, no matter what the Brits say or do there’ll be a lie involved
Luigi says:
5 April, 2019 at 9:31 am.
We are where we are. IMO it should either be full remain or full out – this half-way, useless attempt to save face will be a disaster.
Define disaster.
Step through the looking glass, and let’s imagine Scotland never suffered the Union of 1707 to happen, and spent the last 300 years as a vibrant, healthy independent country and economy. Even remove oil out of the equation, for all that time, Scotland has merely been a “normal”, ordinary Independent country.
But in that parallel dimension, that hypothetical Scotland was also facing its own Constitutional watershed… a “Brexit” phenomenon that wasn’t about leaving a union with Europe, but instead entering a Union with England.
No “normal” union either, but a Union which would imprison Scotland’s Sovereignty in perpetual confusion, remove Scotland’s Government to London and see it belittled and stripped of influence, see all of Scotland’s rich resources forfeited to the Parliament of another country, see Scotland denied its unilateral defence against colonial exploitation, see Scotland’s people impoverished in every facet of their lives, see Scotland’s landscape denuded of trees and indigenous wildlife and maintained as a venue for obscene bloodsport for the wealthy elite, or a toxic firing range and dumping ground for filth. See all of our people suffer the indignity of having their history and culture dismantled to be more “British”, and be subjected to orchestrated propaganda and indoctrination for every day of their lives.
Do you think that Hypothetical Scotland in that parallel reality would be holding fire, biding it’s time, just to know the small print details of that colonial imposition?
Welcome to a tweak in your perspective Scotland. Go ahead and define disaster now.
I have just read TM’s latest missive to Donald Tusk and the EU (sent and published an hour or two ago, as posted by the Guardian online).
She is requesting a further extension until June 30, and says she realises that this will require the UK to hold elections to the European parliament. She will therefore do all that is necessary for these elections to go ahead. She will nevertheless work together with Jeremy Corbyn to find a solution that can be agreed by Westminster before these European elections take place on May 23, in which case she will then cancel them.
If you wish further evidence that Teresa May is living in an absolute cloud cuckoo land of her own making – literally, ‘her own wee world’ – you need look no further. Her letter shows absolutely no understanding of why the EU made April 12 the deadline date in the first place. In her previous request she had asked for a longer extension (if I remember rightly I think it was the same June 30 that time as well), and they refused it for good reasons which she clearly has not understood.
If she had been capable of listening to what the EU was telling her then, she would have realised that granting the UK an extension until June 30 risked invalidating ALL the parliamentary elections of May 23, throughout the WHOLE of the EU. The reason being that if the UK ceased to be a member state on June 30 the EU would then have to re-allocate the UK’s quota of seats in the European parliament to other, remaining member states. This could not be done without holding new elections.
Teresa May should therefore know that there is absolutely no way the EU can possibly agree to the proposal she is putting forward in the new letter she has sent today to Donald Tusk. The EU are obliged to run elections to their parliament on May 23. There is no way they are going to put themselves into a position where the results of these elections will be nullified 5 weeks later, and they will be obliged to do the whole process all over again, just to please the UK and its crazy and destructive Brexit.
The EU are not mad. But maybe, as Margaret Becket recently suggested, Teresa May is. Becket’s suggestion that TM should see a shrink about Brexit was a much more serious suggestion than it was taken for. As Nicola Sturgeon’s comment about her meeting with her yesterday indicates, TM the PM just keeps repeating the same thing, over and over again. Her deal is the best, and that is all there is to it. Nicola said the PM wants to hear where others would be willing to compromise while giving no indication whatsoever that she herself would ever be prepared to do so.
As Nicola publicly indicated to Corbyn: Beware! Be very careful! Everybody has to compromise for TM, but TM doesn’t have to compromise for anyone – and she won’t! She just won’t! And the same brush-off treatment she gave to NS is now being given to Donald Tusk and the whole of the EU. I originally asked for an extension to June 30, and you told me April 12. So now I am telling you again: give me till June 30! I said June 30!!! Why are YOU not listening, Mr Tusk?
Just like: I said ‘My Deal’, which is the best and only deal available, or NO Deal!!! Why are YOU not listening, Ms Sturgeon?
And that’s how she treats the House of Commons – and, through her mummy boy minions like Forsooth – the House of Lords as well.
And that’s how she is treating Jeremy Corbyn as well, with interminable so-called ‘negotiations’.
Today’s letter to Tusk also shows what these waste-of-time talks are all about, for TM, as well. They are there to give an impression that something is moving when, in fact, it is not. She is pretending that these negotiations will result in something being agreed between the two main Parties that Westminster will then vote on, and approve. She is even pretending that this might happen before May 23, and she thinks that will be hunky-dory for the EU. Because – in her wee world of her own making – that will suit the EU, because it will be in time for the UK to withdraw from the EU elections (for which it will nevertheless have fired the starting-gun on or by April 12).
The trouble is that in reality – i.e. in the real world, not the mad one she inhabits inside her own wee head – that won’t suit the EU at all! It will actually destroy the whole electoral process throughout the EU, causing chaos there, like Brexit is causing chaos here.
Besides its psychiatric aspects, Brexit seems to be becoming an infectious disease and – EU beware! – Teresa May has become its biggest carrier.
The EU is bound to look after its own interests. It can’t possibly bring chaos down on its own head. There is no way it will agree to what May is asking for – in fact, it has already ruled out an extension until June 30.
So why is TM asking for it? If she took Margaret Becket’s advice, and her shrink asked her that question, we know exactly how she would answer: ‘Because THEY aren’t listening!’
And her shrink would call an ambulance, and have her sectioned.
Unless, of course, I am getting this all wrong. Perhaps she is perfectly sane. And all her posturing and delaying and going backwards and forwards and sideways, and back again and so on have always had only one objective, which she is rationally and dioggedly – and cunningly – pursuing.
Let’s imagine what she has really wanted all along is No Deal. Maybe that’s what suits Mr. May as well.
Or, at the very least, if she can’t get her deal, that’s the only other deal she actually approves. And whatever else, it guarantees her obsession with stopping the unstoppable waves of ongoing immigration into her beloved country. Not quite Boadicea, more like ‘Queen Canuta’.
And Jeremy Corbyn is just the latest useful idiot whom she has sucked into the interminable games she plays in order to get precisely what she wants.
That could be it … But if so, it only confirms more strongly than ever what Margaret Becket already suggested: she needs to see a shrink, a good one, and fast!
Meanwhile, the only thing that’s moving in the log-jammed Commons seems to be the ceiling …
The madness continues, the roof is falling in … and the unstoppable flood of immigration remains just that – unstoppable. There is nothing Mad May can do to stop it anyway, no matter what mad scheme she dreams up next for that purpose. The way she has gone about it so far, she might even have washed Westminster away, once and for all. Floating doon the Thames to oblivion …
Isn’t it funny how Jacob Rees Mogg and Farage and all that lot faught the Brexit referendum on the basis that the UK had no influence or power over the rules of the EU but now these guys are saying if we’re stuck in the EU we’ll disrupt their budgets and do all sorts of nasty things to stimey the workings of the EU
The very things they said they couldn’t do before
If you’re going to tell lies you’d think being consistent in your lies would be important
Breeks says:
5 April, 2019 at 11:07 am
Define disaster.
Erm, how about the last two years of Brexit mayhem repeated ad finitum? How about Johnson, Gove or even Rees-Mogg as PM? Do you think the Brexiteers are going to return quietly to the box after all this? Things will never be the same.
There is no way the Bresixteers will ever accept May’s terrible deal or any fudge. And the UK did vote to leave remember. Leave means leave and the English are very serious about this. For England, the question is do they believe in democracy or do they not. Scotland will be given another chance to decide one way or the other, based on the fact that Scotland did not vote for Brexit. But we will have to fight very hard for it.
Personally, I favour remain. But there is no way the MPs will be brave enough to vote for what they really want, and they don’t want hard Brexit either, sop here we are stuck in the fudge. The UK will transform from an EU member state to being a vassal state.
Its’ funny how WM still tries to maintain the illusion that they are in control, passing meaningless legislation about prohibiting a hard Brexit and seeking another short extension.
Not in their power, I’m afraid. The EU now holds all the cards. ALL THE CARDS.
Ever seen a great former power being utterly humiliated, begging a greater power for more time? It will be fascinating watching the BBC and tory press trying to dress this up. 🙂
Luigi @ 09:31,
Well, one valuable service that this ongoing farrago has done for us is to make as clear as day that any presumed EEA/EFTA compromise just doesn’t cut it with the hardline Leavers, for whom FoM is as appealing as kryptonite to Superman. And that goes for May & Corby all the way down to the knuckledraggers outside WM. For them it’s all about anti-immigration, stupid. They just won’t come out straight and say it, it’s all done by nods and winks.
You have to hand it to them over their determination, though. There’s no difficulty, real or imagined, that deters them from pursuing their chosen goal. We here in Scotland are in a considerably superior position in multifarious ways, yet we spend far too much of our time hand-wringing about whether it could possibly work out. If it wasn’t for that drag, amplified as it is by the Loyalist media, we would already be long gone.
@Ken500 08:30
Check out these links.
link to madinamerica.com
link to madinamerica.com
link to madinamerica.com
link to madinamerica.com
Psychiatry, a great way to make a very comfortable living. You got an ‘issue’, we got a label for it.
Robert Peffers says:
5 April, 2019 at 9:52 am
So there it is – there is only one choice – stay in the EU or we will suffer.
I agree, Robert. But England does not want to stay. Bottom line. That’s democracy – the freedom to vote for something that may be bad for you. You can’t let the people vote and then say “Ah but….”. When democracy is subverted “for the good of the people”, that’s when we get into very dangerous territory.
As I said, Scotland will get another chance, but it will have to fight very hard for it.
Actually Robert there is only one choice leave the UK or we will suffer.
In the EU or not Scotland is capable of looking after ourselves,it just makes sense to be in the EU even more sense as an independent Scotland.
And you can bet that even though the EU is showing its best diplomatic face to the world behind the scenes they know full well that the UK government has been acting as a saboteur trying to pull down the EU movement from inside,money laundering,dodgy arms deals,crooked internet scam sites,tax evasion scams,backing far right groups in their countries and on and on….
Remaining in the UK even if it revokes article 50 or goes brexit will not stop the EU going after these criminals who have tried to ruin them,if they think brexit will be the end of the matter then they are totally wrong.
Scotland`s only choice is to leave the UK and i am sure our EU friends will be more than accommodating during our transition into a full independent member state,its a win win for them they get us and at the same time get to destroy their enemy financially.
Of course they are never actually going to admit that that is their goal.
Time for Scotland to pick a side.
O/T
We are frequently reminded that the Maybot supported Remain during the EU Ref Campaign.
Does anybody actually believe that she was ever a sincere supporter of Remain?
While there is no doubt that she expressed support for Remain during the campaign I would contend that said support was due to the fact that it was the general opinion that Remain would win and her voiced support was more due to her long term political ambitions.
I don’t recall her taking an active part in the campaign.
Her history of ruthless xenophobia while Home Secretary makes it difficult to believe that she was ever a supporter of The EU.
In order for a dictatorship to flourish, surrounding that dictatorship with the appearance of as much democracy as possible is highly desirable, thus creating the illusion of a peoples participation resulting in the perpetuation of that dictatorship
If you’re going to take over from an all powerful monarchy you first must create the appearance of a democracy on that principle or like the monarchy you replaced you will eventually be exposed and deposed as a dictatorship
England has done well in this endeavour for centuries but they are now exposed, we’re just waiting for the next bit now
May had hoped to get her WA through WM – but couldn’t. She doesn’t want to stay in the EU so is now going for a hard as hell, NO-DEAL Brexit. It’s all that’s left.
But she has to make it appear to Joe Public that, like a good PM, she tried everything in her power to avoid a hard Brexit. Thus all the false talks with Corbyn, EU etc.
Truth is, it’s a sham, a smokescreen to mask her true intent. As Wull points out above, she must surely know the EU would be bonkers mad-McMad of the Clan McMad to even remotely consider what she’s now asking of them.
You misread me Luigi.
The real disaster of Brexit isn’t the stay or leave outcome of Brexit, but the failure of our country to break free from its bondage and subjugation. That failure is a disaster of much greater magnitude than Brexit itself.
Weigh up all the things that an independent nation would have to forfeit in order to find itself in Scotland’s current position, and the merits or demerits of Brexit become trifling.
I agree with you 100%. I would end Scotland’s time in this purgatory in a heartbeat.
Brexit, and more explicitly our rejection of Brexit, provided us with a key of justified opportunity to warrant the unlocking our Constitutional liberty… and yet we show such puzzling instincts and hesitate.
Just another little piece about the wicked Daily Record.
Front page full spread – Nicola Sturgeon (with big loving heart)
Pages 4 and 5 Nicola Sturgeon (with huge support from EU nationals)
Editorial Nicola Sturgeon “it is the right message”
page 12 Nicola Sturgeon
Let me repeat our enemiess are now the Sun,the Mail and the Express (and the Scotsman,the Herald the Courier and the P&J and not the Record)
@Proud Cybernat,
The other side of that particular coin is that she knows it will cost her the Union. Many in Westminster have now acknowledged that fact including the DUP and even Reese Mogge.Perhaps she is relying on the EU saying enough is enough and as you say she can appeal to the Scots that she tried everything but it was the EU who threw us out.
This may hope to instigate animosity towards the EU ,but I doubt it here in Scotland.
It is an English drama,a bit like your pal starting a fight and expecting you to take his side because your his pal.
Won’t work.
gus1940 11.49
No idea how sincere her commitment was to remain.
But May was certainly aware of the Northern Ireland ‘problem’ during the referendum campaign.
link to archive.is
@Breeks
SNP WM leader, Ian Blackford, has said to Treez May countless times now that Scotland will not be taken out of the EU against its sovereign will. He’s not asking her – he’s telling her.
And May, I suspect, is getting the message. She knows that if UK Brexits she loses Scotland and England is royally screwed without Scotland’s bountiful resources keeping it afloat. She knows the score alright even though she’ll never admit the truth of it. That’s probably another reason why we haven’t Brexited yet and why she’s asking for extension after extension.
Scotland has her over the proverbial (oil) barrel.
Proud Cybernat Rubbish, May is now going for the softer Brexit the median British voter wants but first she needs to get the Deal through to get the transition period through. She has also said today we will contest the European elections if No Deal agreed by next Friday but Deal plus CU just votes from a Commons majority and she has said she will go with that.
Even less than half of Scots still back Remain if we get a soft Brexit with Yougov this week, indeed only London had over 50% for Remain in the EU even if the alternative was a soft Brexit
Chase yersel FUD.
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 5 April, 2019 at 11:35 am:
” … Well, one valuable service that this ongoing farrago has done for us is to make as clear as day that any presumed EEA/EFTA compromise just doesn’t cut it with the hardline Leavers, for whom FoM is as appealing as kryptonite to Superman.”
There is one wee fly in all the various ointments about the United Kingdom joining EEA/EFTA. The United Kingdom has to apply to become a member state and it isn’t up to the United Kingdom to make the decision on granting that membership.
There has been every indication that EEA/EFTA are not too enamoured even with the concept of the United Kingdom allowed anywhere near membership. It isn’t too hard to think why. The sheer size of the United Kingdom, or even the kingdom of England alone, is the obvious main reason they would not want such a large state as a member state.
It would take about three minutes for the either the United Kingdom or the Kingdom of England to start doing exactly as they have done within the European Union – act as if they are the bosses and everyone else their underlings.
EEA/EFTA has already said so and expressed their worries of such a scenario. History stands on EEA/EFTA’s side for is it not the very reason that Westminster and the English/British nationalists want to get out of the European Union? They simply find it unacceptable that they cannot always have their own way.
Who else but the USA would countenance a treaty with Westminster? It is why Scotland, Wales and Ireland all have independence movements. Who except an even bigger bully state would sign treaties with the United Kingdom?
Corbyn will be destroyed if confirmatory and remain options ref not included and and the SNP won’t fall foe that pish either.
Dave McEwan Hill says:
What happened to yesterdays paper? Hardly pro SNP.
Come the election or reverendum DRec will resort to type. Just ask Torquil or David Clegg
John Curtice on bbc2 POLITICS LIVE.
EU election –TORIES AND LABOUR VOTE will go down. UKIP, Lib Dems and Greens will increase.
SNP – You don’t expect him to mention the SNP. He refers to North of the Border – yip thats alll he said.
Remember at the beginning of 2016.
When the BBC arranged for a labour mp to resign live
Look who sent out a letter saying nothing wrong had been done.
All fair, impartial and objective, don’t you know.
And not at all biased against Jeremy Corbyn ….
It was Robbie Gibb.
May’s current Director Of Communication.
And recently revealed hard-line Brexiter.
link to archive.is
link to twitter.com
We have to keep in mind that there is a fair segment of ordinary people who have better things to do than worry overmuch over what Brexit is about, since there is nothing they can do about it anyway. They are fed up about the whole thing and just wish it would go away.
That doesn’t mean though that they are antagonistic to independence. On the contrary, they are latent supporters who don’t show in the polls, but given the evident UK mismanagement, confusion and blundering, will be open to a positive case for a definitive escape from this ongoing mess, once they are given an opportunity to actually make a decision.
We just have to have the self-confidence to trust that they will rally in sufficient numbers when the time comes to put the issue to the test. And that time will surely be soon. As PC says @ 12:21, Ian Blackford isn’t asking Maybot, he’s telling her.
May’s letter to Tusk today is utterly pointless, she knows this of course and has zero expectation of the EU agreeing a short extension until 30th June which was of course already rejected by the EU.
The real target for the letter is her domestic audience, the aim being to soften them up, both for a further delay (no doubt a long one as that will be the only extension on offer) and to telegraph her intention to take part in the EU elections.
She has painted herself into a corner with her red lines and has lost all and any authority in parliament. There is nowhere friendly to turn to and she can only try to delay the inevitable and hope that something to save her will turn up later. She remains as delusional as ever.
I think she’s also blundered by sending this letter to Tusk today before the talks with Labour are even over. Labour we know seek a general election and there have been favourable noises made about a “confirmatory referendum” on any deal agreed with the EU. A delay until only 30th June rules out either of these as an option so she has slammed the door in his face with this letter.
I believe the EU will give the UK a final final final extension of at least a year. The ERG lot and Brexiteer press and public will go mental and she will be under tremendous pressure to resign as the price of her failure.
I think then that a vote of no confidence would be the card that Corbyn plays and we could be on the way to a general election in 3 months time. This may well suit the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon IMO, with the end result of Brexit still totally unclear she should be demanding a Section 30 order for a second Independence referendum from whoever will form the new government.
She can use the campaign for a GE as a pseudo referendum and put Independence first and foremost as SNP policy.
Yougov this week had 49% of UK voters backing Brexit when you combined support for May’s current Deal, Leave but stay in SM and Customs Union and Leave with No Deal to only 37% for Remain. However only 26% of UK voters backed Leave with No Deal so the median British voter wants to Leave with a Deal
link to yougov.co.uk
English voters wish to leave. Scottish voters wish to remain.
Thepnr As that worked so well in 2017, May would of course demand the SNP got at least 51% of the Scottish vote for an indyref2 manifesto commitment at a Westminster general election to be even considered by the UK government as would most Labour MPs
Hamish 100 Only 49% of Scots back Remain in the poll with all Brexit options, over 50% of Londoners still back Remain though
The UK was in EFTA from 1960 until 1973 and Norway and Iceland said they would allow is back ultimately
Luigi
I’m not savy to all the behind-the-scenes maneuvering, but I think BINO would be a safer position for Scotland to achieve indy from than No deal. It will drive English exceptionalism insane and will still provide legal protection to the rights of those living in Scotland. We will be out but still protected. Who cares about the long=term prospects of Britain, we are heading to the creation of a new state anyway, the exceptional state of Brexitania.
‘May would of course demand’
Will she, aye.
All Brexit has meant to me is that every time there is a discussion about this mess its a bunch of English politicians and English commentators giving their views and then there is a visit to an English factory telling us how it will affect said English factory and there English workers.
The rUK doesn`t get a look in.
It is the English vote that is taking us out of Europe but as usual when it turns into something bad they hide and its Btitain`s fault.
Grrrrrrrrrrrr
If there was to be an election, the most recent poll I’m aware of from last weekend by the Mail on Sunday predicted a hung parliament in which the SNP rightly then might well be expected to play a part in who becomes the next Prime Minister.
Of course in this scenario May would have already gone and we could be looking at Gove or Johnson as leader of the Tories. Anyway there’s no election called yet and an awful lot can happen in 3 months. If Corbyn want’s to win this hypothetical election I think he needs to confirm that he would hold a 2nd EU ref no matter what deal (or no deal) could eventually be agreed with the EU.
Hopefully Scotland need not concern herself with that outcome assuming we get our own referendum first and a vote in the affirmative to once again become an Independent country.
re. Reframing # 1. It’s one of the tabs I have open and will get around to it at some point. I probably will have something to say, sorry peeps. 🙂
I have just come across a live poll in the Huffington post on the article Nigel Farage Says He’ll Stand For ‘The Brexit Party’ In European Elections.
About 170 people have voted so far, I have voted in it the SNP is sitting at three percent
Luigi says: 5 April, 2019 at 11:38 am:
” … I agree, Robert. But England does not want to stay. Bottom line. That’s democracy – the freedom to vote for something that may be bad for you.”
Thing is, Luigi, the United Kingdom cannot ever be a democracy and the clue to that is in the title, “United Kingdom”. There can be no democracy in a monarchy – no matter how they dress it up.
In this case it cannot even be applied to the United Kingdom for that little arrangement comes from English law from the English Glorious Revolution of 1688 and that is 19 years before there even was a United Kingdom. Furthermore the Treaty of Union states that both kingdom’s Rules of Law must remain independent of each other in perpetuity.
That little English Law, “Arrangement”, was that the rebel English Parliamentarians deposed their lawful monarch and invited William & Mary to be their monarchs on condition they legally delegated their sovereignty, (Divine Right of Kings0, to the Parliament of England.
However, The Kingdom of Scotland remained an independent kingdom until 1707 and the Treaty of Union. As the Jacobite uprisings show the two kingdoms were not only still independent they were at war.
So it was/is thus illegal that the concept of The Monarch of England being legally sovereign, (other than in the Kingdom of England), is illegal as is the concept that the Monarch’s sovereignty can be delegated to other than the parliament of England and, on 1 May 1707 the Parliament of the Kingdom of England was legally put into permanent recession and has never been in existence ever since.
Westminster on 1 May 1707 became the Parliament of the United Kingdom and legally it still is. There is no actual legal parliament of England but Westminster has assumed, illegally, that the Monarch of England’s sovereignty is delegated to the Parliament of the United Kingdom but Scots law has never accepted such a concept. Thus the idea that the United Kingdom Parliament has sovereignty over Scotland, the people of Scotland or even the Holyrood parliament of Scotland is illegal and there is absolutely no legislation or legal claims that it is.
Legally when the Treaty of Union is declared over by Scotland the Westminster parliament ends and there is no legally elected parliament of England – got it? no rUnited Kingdom can legally exist.
The Kingdom of England on independence day becomes legally without any legal government other than the legally Sovereign Monarch of England and a monarchy cannot be democratic.
HYUFD says:
5 April, 2019 at 12:56 pm
Thepnr As that worked so well in 2017, May would of course demand the SNP got at least 51%
In a FTTP election? How very democratic of you! Con/Lab have ruled on 40% or less for donkey’s years, so according to you most pervious governments of the UK have lacked electoral legitimacy.
The Scottish government already has a mandate from Scots, to hold indyref2. This was also supported by the Scottish Parliament. There is absolutely NO need for another (superfluous) mandate from any impending Werstminster GE.
As far as the independence question goes, the only purpose a GE could serve is as described in these two graphics quoting tories.
@Brian Doonthetoon
I agree and I am most definitely NOT talking about any further mandate. If there is an election then I see no way for the SNP to avoid it. My argument is that the SNP should put Independence first and foremost as their principle commitment in their manifesto. This is something that many have complained the SNP failed to do in 2017.
I’d definitely prefer a general election and an undefined Brexit outcome as being beast for Independence. Sure No deal might cause such Mayhem that a Yes vote would be increased. What I would not want to see is a deal that involves membership of the CU and SM supported by the SNP. Such a deal would be used against us as the argument would be that “you got what you wanted”.
I also believe that it is possible an election fought by the SNP based around Independence could win in excess of 50% of the popular vote. It would be strange not to believe that but still believe that you would get more than 50% in a 2nd Indyref.
I know some SNP voters don’t support Independence and that many supporters of other parties do and that two are not directly comparable, still it might force some Labour and SNP voters to think hard about who would get their vote in any GE.
Nicola Surgeon seeks longer extension also trolls Theresa May a bit.
The first minister pledged in January to give an update on her plans for a second independence referendum “in the coming weeks” even if the Brexit deadline was extended – but has still not done so.
Ms Sturgeon said this was because there was “still no clarity in the immediate term about which path the UK is going to take”, and added: “I had hoped that we would be at that point by now, but unfortunately I underestimated the incompetence of the UK government”.
link to archive.fo
I Thepnr.
I was actually responding to the comment at 12.56pm. I agree with you re independence in the manifesto for a GE.
Thepnr @ 1.10 pm
‘Hopefully Scotland need not concern herself with that outcome assuming we get our get own referendum first and a vote in the affirmative to become independent once again’ 🙂
Lovely and positive Thepnr =)
I do hope so too!
But whatever way this all develops, and in that – I have complete faith in whatever tact the SNP choose to take to ensure the best outcome for Scotland, I do see Scotland’s Independence is very very close now 🙂
I Thepnr = Hi Thepnr!
@DerekM says:5 April, 2019 at 11:44 am:
” … Scotland`s only choice is to leave the UK and i am sure our EU friends will be more than accommodating during our transition into a full independent member state,its a win win for them they get us and at the same time get to destroy their enemy financially.”
I’m afraid you are victim of a Westminster Establishment bit of propaganda there DerekM. Allow me to highlight just what it is.
The Westminster propaganda has long pushed the idea that there is some kind of queue of non-EU member states all in a line awaiting entry into the European Union and that an independent Scotland would have to join that queue right at the back of them all. Not to put too fine a point to it – Utter Bollox!
The reason, and the only reason, that any applicant state must wait to become an EU Member state is compliance with the EU rules and regulations. Scotland, being in the EU for as long as there has been an EU quite obviously complies with every EU condition that is required to be a member and all that is necessary for Scotland to become a member state is for the EU to say, “Hi Scotland Yer in”.
However, there is absolutely no need for even that short time to pass. The EU could say that as the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of kingdoms and the Kingdom of England voted to leave they can but as the Kingdom of Scotland voted to stay then they can and remain as the legacy member state, (with some renegotiated terms), “Welcome Home Scotland we kept the light on for you that you asked for.”
I find it funny how they don’t mention Scotland much, I don’t think it is because they think all the time we are irrelevant, I think there is more to it.
Someone tried to start a petition on the UK Governments site only tone informed it was reject. See why?
link to petition.parliament.uk
Also there is a report that Theresa May and her hubby have bought a house on the south coast of Ireland. A holiday home within the EU? Or somewhere to get away from the chaos she will leave behind. I must try to find the report of that in the Irish newspaper.
‘Underestimated the incomptetence of the UK government’
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha HA 🙂
Looks like the claim that Theresa May bought a holiday home in Ireland was a hoax. April fool joke.
James Caithness
May’s new house.
April Fool.
See my 8.47!
Treeza has bunker mentality an’ she’s no fer leavin’ her feckin’ bunker ony time soon !
James Caithness @ 2.03 pm
How dare she? How fucking dare she!!
Rowley will say whatever it takes.
Labour are all hogs at the trough.
It’s their way, always has been.
Build a comfortable life on the back of the public’s anger & desperation, with talk of a vague future settlement which is always just out of sight.
An April Fool’s joke?
On thank goodness for that. I can calm down now =)
@Brian Doonthetoon
SHAZBOT! 🙂
@Breeks says:5 April, 2019 at 12:03 pm:
” … I agree with you 100%. I would end Scotland’s time in this purgatory in a heartbeat.”
Or conversely you would rush prematurely into a trap and get your head in your hands to play with.
I really wonder at the sheer idiocy of those who presume they are better informed, more updated and better intellectually placed than the combined First Minister, her cabinet, the SG with their legal teams plus officials and the entire SNP, (as a political party). Just how presumptuous and idiotic can one person get?
Unless, of course, that one person has quite a different agenda to carry out.
Am I right in my understanding that Teresa May’s latest request to the EU for an extension till June 30th is to get an agreement on HER Withdrawal Agreement?
Presumably without much by way of give aways to Jeremy?
All of which could be trashed by the newest mad bad Brexiteer Tory PM at their own convenience.
FAO those that know a lot more about the law than me (most Wingers)
Is there a possibility that we as citizens can appeal to the European Court of Civil Rights, to ensure that our status as European Citizens is protected and maintained, since this is what we as a ‘Sovereign People’ of Scotland voted for?
Perhaps a crowd-funder for a group who represents all of us, cn take the case forward.
The outcome could be at least that us individuals in Scotland who wish to, can claim European citizenship, with the benefits of freedom of movement and being able to appeal to the European Courts for Civil cases, etc, while probably not being able to import or export goods without the same imposed tariffs ‘enjoyed’ by rUK businesses.
Is this worth exploring?
Thepnr @ 12.47 pm
Ooops you just answered my question there (wee red face) =)
I see the British Labour party in Scotland are still lying through their teeth about tuition fees.
This is from their website:
“Access to education should be based on work ethic and ability – not the ability to pay. That’s why the Last Labour-led Scottish government abolished tuition fees.”
BUT, here is what they fail to mention.
1. It was the LABOUR government in 1998 who introduced tuition fees in the first place. It was not the Tories.
2. Whilst ‘technically’ Labour in Scotland removed what were called ‘tuition fees’, they did not remove the debt burden on students, and just replaced ‘tuition fees’ with a similar paying system called the ‘graduate endowment’, which had to be paid upon graduation. It is just sophistry for Labour to make the claims they do. They know they are in effect lying to deceive current students who do not know the history of Labour and how it was LABOUR who introduced tuition fees for the first time.
3. The ONLY political party in the United kingdom to completely remove tuition fees or other tuition charges is the SNP. They abolished tuition fees and the ‘graduate endowment’ charges created by Labour.
Is it any wonder Labour are doing so badly in Scotland. They just cannot seem to be able to stop lying. It’s just lie after lie, after lie. It is almost like they themselves, cannot believe the bad policies they introduced when last they were in power
Right now Kezia is on twitter denying she told voters to vote Tory in areas where Labour could not win at the last general election. Yet actual videos, and direct reports of her saying so, all still exist.
I honestly wish the Labour party would just stop lying. It is just so daft, and very, very damaging overall.
Thepnr at 156pm,
That quote from the First Minister you posted;
Ms Sturgeon said this was because there was “still no clarity in the immediate term about which path the UK is going to take”, and added: “I had hoped that we would be at that point by now, but unfortunately I underestimated the incompetence of the UK government”
That is hilarious. Political line of the year. ‘I underestimated the incompetence of the UK government’
Marvellous.
DUP unhappy at May requesting further extension. Who’d a thunk it!
link to twitter.com
Those talking of a general election ‘mandate’, I agree with Thepnr above. It is nonsense however, to talk of needing 51% of the vote, since general elections are determined on number of seats, not on percentages.
You cannot say on the one hand that an executive government is determined by number of seats, but then also say ‘oh, but’ for independence we’d have to count it differently’.
General election – number of seats
referendum – percentage.
Anyway, as I said, I agree with Thepnr. Indy should be on a manifesto (and it is what failed them in 2017), but they do not need a new ‘mandate’ to hold a referendum.
What a complete and utter shambles. Another day another total and utter chaos.Folk are so suck abd tired of this Westminster unionists appalling mess. Most of them should be in jail. They evenpuuled out that dinosaur Beckett. That monstrosity. They are just trying to make people sick. Sick at the sight of them.
Just a thought the ERG is part of the conservatives a party with in a party. Would it be possible for Scot greens to become members of SNP and stand and what would that do for numbers both at Hollyrood and westminster
Just vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one other person to vote as well. It is won. Demographs are changing. The rest just squander £Bilions of Scottish revenues and finances down the Westminster corrupt drain. Keep it secret under the Official Secrets Act. Iraq War, Dunblane, Lockerbie kept secret for 100 years. Lies, deception and corruption.
Ken we will never change greens mind but working together we can achieve Indy after that each party for itself
@Robert J. Sutherland says: 5 April, 2019 at 12:43 pm:
” … As PC says @ 12:21, Ian Blackford isn’t asking Maybot, he’s telling her.”
Right, Robert, but in spite of what some on Wings would have you believe, I’m not a blind, deaf and dumb follower of SNP Party policy. What I am is a person that thinks things through and assesses what are often not said outright but are diplomatically suggested.
Which brings us to the point you make that Ian Blackford, “Is telling her”, and i had, some time ago, already given that some thought.
Now just why would Ian be telling her unless he knew something we do not? To me the first point must be hat it is the People of Scotland who are sovereign and unless there was a known, and reliable, majority of the people for independence to count upon it would be foolish for Ian to do so and Ian does not give the impression of being foolhardy. So what could Ian know that i don’t?
The answer was that there really was no way anyone could claim a reliable majority that would claim their sovereign right so it must be something else but what? The only thing I could think of was that it wasn’t a reliance upon a known majority and there is only one other thing I could think of. It would have to be a cast iron legal claim that Westminster doesn’t stand a chance of beating and the only thing I can think of is the very same case I’ve been claiming on Wings for years.
There is some evidence towards that case already and never forget there is a Queen’s Council sitting in the Commons alongside Ian.
So there it is, it is only my speculation but I believe that when the time comes there will be a legal case made for Scotland’s right to assert her people’s legal sovereignty and claim that Westminster has not recognised it since even 1707 and a simple legal declaration that the United Kingdom is hereby disunited with immediate effect.
that bounces the ball right into the middle of the Westminster court and leaves the onus upon then to prove the claim is illegal – if they cannot do so the game is over Kingdom of Scotland 1 – 0 Kingdom of England and no added on time or extra time. EU referees decision is final.
Patrick Roden says:
5 April, 2019 at 2:38 pm
FAO those that know a lot more about the law than me (most Wingers)
Is there a possibility that we as citizens can appeal to the European Court of Civil Rights, to ensure that our status as European Citizens is protected and maintained, since this is what we as a ‘Sovereign People’ of Scotland voted for?
Perhaps a crowd-funder for a group who represents all of us, cn take the case forward.
The outcome could be at least that us individuals in Scotland who wish to, can claim European citizenship, with the benefits of freedom of movement and being able to appeal to the European Courts for Civil cases, etc, while probably not being able to import or export goods without the same imposed tariffs ‘enjoyed’ by rUK businesses.
Is this worth exploring?
————————
Unfortunately, I can’t see it working for several reasons:
I live in Germany and Scotland isn’t recognised as we are also members of the UK which the treaty was agreed with.
If we were able to win this, how would we differentiate between Scots and English and their satellites? We would need a passport or special pass which the UK and the EU wouldn’t recognise, unless we actually gained our independence.
The EU might sympathise with Scotland, but until we annul the treaty of union, they do not recognise us politically, only the UK.
I know this because I have been looking at what I have to do to stay in Germany after a hard brexit and Scotland doesn’t get a mention. All agreements or non agreements are between the EU and the UK as an exiting member state.
Labour not only introduced fees. Blair. Labour/unionists in Scotland means tested loans on household income. 21K to 42K. So students with straight A could not afford to go to university. Students of households of average earnings could not get a full loan £3,000.a year to go to university. No matter how hard they worked. The SNP sorted out, increased loans and award grants to those of household income under £21,000.
Families still have to help the student youngsters out but at least those with ability can now go to uni. Students are often the poorest in income but for a limited period. Not absolute poverty. Relative poverty. Their lifelong income is more advanced. Elderly women are the poorest in society. They live longer. Many did not receive pension rights because they worked P/T
There are also College places and good apprenticeship. Additional needs support. Often better than school at College and universities. Life long learning so people can aquire skills and reach their full potential. Open university courses. HNC/HND. Trades people can establish a comfortable living with vocational skills. In demand.
Scotland has one of the best education systems in the world which could be even better by not wasting public monies on illegal wars, financial fraud and tax evasion. The Westminster lying hypocrites cesspit. Now crumbling to bits. Leaking £Billions.
Further to my last, these decisions are political and not legal as far as the Ministers in the German Bundestag are concerned. I was told that by the Einbürgerungsbehörde last wednesday, when I looked at applying for duel nationality as a way of staying in Germany.
The only way WM can avoid the coming constitutional legal battle in the ICJ or UN is to:
a) Cancel Brexit thus not illegally removing the sovereign people of Scotland from the EU (which amounts to subjugation).
b) Find a way to get the SNP to support some form of Brexit then they can argue that “The sovereign people of Scotland got what its elected representatives voted for” thus no subjugation occurred.
SNP need to be very wary on how they tread here but I think they see the long game very well here. We have WM over a barrel and they just no longer no what to do but have yet another extension. They’re utterly terrified of where this constitutional bourach is all heading. The last thing they want is for Scotland’s legal sovereignty to be tested in an international court of justice. Because Scotland will win any such legal contest hands down.
* know * what to do…
I think some folk might be misunderstanding my position re. the UK’s constitution. I am no way a fan of it but I also have a far deeper understanding of constitutional structures than some folk appear to give me credit for, as it is considered a CORE issue, in the trade. Time for some Philosophy of Law and stuff, before I get around to reading “Reframing #1”?
link to oxfordscholarship.com
The Organic Law
link to lawliberty.org
Constitutional Law, Administrative Law, and Human Rights: A Critical Introduction (7th edn)
link to oxfordlawtrove.com
Parliamentary Sovereignty
Contemporary Debates
link to cambridge.org
@Hamish100 says:5 April, 2019 at 12:55 pm:
” … English voters wish to leave. Scottish voters wish to remain.”
Yes Hamish100 and the bit, ‘They do not want you to know’, that, believe it or not the United Kingdom is, would you believe, a United Kingdom with just two, equally sovereign, kingdom partners and the Kingdom of England voted to leave while the Kingdom of Scotland voted to remain and I think the European union, being a democracy, will do the democratic thing and tell the Kingdom of England they can leave if they pay their dues and tell the Kingdom of Scotland they can remain as the legacy member state and remind us they left a light on to show us the way home.
People in Scotland appealed to the ECHR as EU citizens and the UN that is why Scotland got (limited) Devolution after voting for it 20 years sooner. Thatcher denied it. Blair/Westminster had to conform or the UK would have got throw out of the EU and UN. It was recognised that Scotland has less democracy and rights than the Eastern European countries achieving self determination and self government.
Blair set up the Holyrood Parliament with as little powers and rights to sabotage Independence and self governance. So Westminster could keep control of Scotland’s finances, resources and assets. Subordinated to London S/E where the revenues ended up. A 2nd class satellite to Westminster London S/E economy.
Scotland was depopulated. It is only since Devolution 2000 that Scotland’s population has ever increased since 1707. The Scottish population in 1707 was 1/4 of the rest if the UK. 25%. Now it is 1/12. 2/3 less than it should be by comparison. (15Million). In 1707 the rest of the UK pop was 4Million. Scotland was 1Million. The Jacobite Uprising, the Clearances. The mass migration as a result of Westminster policies. Higher unemployment constantly. The illegal and secret taking of Scottish monies and resources. The Oil revenues etc. Scottish industry devastated by Thatcher. The major thing that made improvements was EU membership. It costs nothing and brings benefits.
Westminster centralist policies have devastated the Scottish economy. Until 2007 when the SNP came to power. Scotland still does not reach it’s full potential because of Westminster chronic, chaotic interference. Brexit. The Oil and Gas sector, fishing industry and farming all mismanaged by Westminster imbeciles.
People in Scotland have appealed before to the ECHR as EU citizens and to the UN as international world citizens. The Scottish Gov just needs to appeal to the Courts for a S30 to hold another IndyRef but can’t at present because of the chaos which needs sorted. They can appeal at any time. They did before. There is a precedent.
“but it was a UK-Wide vote” the Brexiteers yell.
Yeah, and your point is?
It was a vote held in Scotland among Scots – SOVEREIGN Scots. We sovereign Scots voted to Remain while England voted to Leave.
We are sovereign and our Sovereignty is sacrosanct and cannot be trumped by anything on Earth, not even a 10:1 majority in England. To force Scotland out of the EU against the sovereign will of its people would be subjugation and Ian Blackford is just waiting for the moment that occurs (which I doubt ever will). For IF Brexit ever came to pass and WM did pull Scotland out against our sovereign will, it is ICJ / UN here we come and WM would get a solid boot in the haw-maws, told it acted illegally and that Scotland should return to the EU.
We went into an international Treaty with England to bring about the UK. We DID NOT, never will and, indeed, cannot, give up our sovereignty. WM deluded itself for 312 years because all Scotland ever sent down there were BritNat compliant MPs. WM is now aking up to the constitutional reality of what the UK Treaty of Union actually is. And it’s terrified that Scotland too has woken up to it and that we see now the POWER we actually have to effect our own wishes.
That’s the long and short of it.
The Greens will muck up Indy. Just as they muck up everything else. They waste more finances than anyone. With their half baked schemes and opposition to good worthwhile projects. Renege on green policies. Forth Road Crossing and AWPR etc.
re. “reframing #1”. This is another CORE issue, so I hope folk can make time for a bit of Cognitive and Linguistic science and stuff?
link to sciencedirect.com
George Lakoff: In Politics, Progressives Need to Frame Their Values
link to georgelakoff.com
Framing-effects approach: A theoretical and methodological critique
link to core.ac.uk
How innovation leads to transformitive change
Towards a theory of transformative social innovation
link to transitsocialinnovation.eu
There really is a constitutional time bomb ticking under this Brexit result.
Parliament devolved their Sovereignty to the English people to vote for Brexit,but could not devolve to us in Scotland something we already had. We are sovereign.
This is what is at the crux of the matter. We cannot claim to be sovereign if we are trumped by the sovereign will of another partner in the UK. It means their sovereignty is deemed greater than ours.
This has to be presented and tested in court at some point surely?
Oil and water don’t mix.
The whole of Scotland was against the 1707 terms of Union. Reneged upon before the ink was dried. Of terms of equality or fairness. The Terms were never honoured. People in Scotland were taxed more to pay for England’s war with France. Resulting in poverty abd hardship. Cruelty imposed on the people. Scotland subjugated and oppressed. Same as Ireland. Nothing changes. Still at it. Scotland over taxed. It’s revenues taken for illegal wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. Westminster unionists still at it to this day but Scotland (Ireland, Wales EU) fighting back against the Westminster reprobates.
Edward 1. Hammer of the Scots. Taxes imposed to pay for England’s illegal wars with France. Causing hardship and poverty in Scotland. Edward 1 & 2 were fought off.
Treaty of Union. Terms reneged upon. Scotland over taxed to pay for England’s illegal wars in France. Causing hardship,and poverty in Scotland. Gun powder, weapons invented and used.
Scotland still over-taxed. It’s revenues and resources illegally taken to pay for Westminster’s illegal,wars, tax evasion and financial fraud. £Billions. Causing starvation and poverty in Scotland and the world.
Vote SNP/SNP. Vote for Independence. Get one person to vote as well. It is won.
The EU costs Scotland nothing and brings benefits. Westminster takes £Billions from Scotland and wastes it. HS2, Hinkley Point, Trident a total waste of money while people are being sanctioned and starved. Scotland has to pay for it. Make the world a better place. Break Westminster unionist power. To cause murder, poverty, abuse and distress in the world. Lying sychophant psychopaths.
@Thepnr says:5 April, 2019 at 1:48 pm@
” … My argument is that the SNP should put Independence first and foremost as their principle commitment in their manifesto.”
Why would they need to? The raison dêtre of the SNP is to gain Scottish Independence. They do not send MEPs to Europe to assist in running Europe but to assist in gaining Scotland’s independence. They are not the Scottish Government with the main aim of running Scotland. They are not standing candidates in council elections just to run local councils. Everything they do is with the aim of gaining support from voters towards Scottish independence.
That is not to say they do not do the best job they can – just that the main aim is gaining Scottish independence. The first thing, of course, is to do their jobs well for if they do not the electorate will not vote for them.
The SNP has a main mission and that is Scottish Independence and thus the party covers a wide swath of the political spectrum and although it does their main mission is what holds the party together so well.
So that being said, and ignoring the Westminster propaganda, any vote for the SNP at any level is without doubt a vote for Scottish independence. Why then is it not well understood that the first thing an SNP vote does is strengthen the case for Scottish independence.
Not so long ago it was taken as read that a vote for Labour was a vote for the furtherance of the working classes. A vote for the Conservatives was a vote against the working classes and for business in general but big business in particular.
Why then is it not taken as read that a vote for the SNP is a vote for independence? Yet I sometimes read the opinion that upon gaining independence the SNP will disband.
There is no need for stating in their manifesto that they stand for independence as it is, without doubt, their raison dêtre. That being said it is beyond doubt that they will, from time to time, need a specific mandate from the sovereign people for a specific, and usually constitutional, matter.
Time for a bit more Constitutional law and stuff?
link to transitsocialinnovation.eu
ORGANIC SOCIETY
Forms of Government
link to traditioninaction.org
The British Constitution: Continuity and Change
link to bloomsburyprofessional.com
The New British Constitution
link to bloomsburyprofessional.com
Robert Peffers Utter rubbish. For starters the Kingdoms of England and Scotland were united in 1603 in the form for James VIth of Scotland and 1st of England a full century before the Union of England and Scotland in 1707. Second of course Westminster was already the Parliament of England and Wales in 1707 and had had Welsh MPs since the 16th century, the Act of Union simply dissolved the existing English Parliament (also containing Welsh MPs) and Scottish Parliaments into the United Kingdom Parliament. Ireland then joined the Union in 1800 and when the Irish Free State was created in 1922 and Irish MPs left the Commons it simply reverted to being the Parliament of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as it would revert to being the Parliament of England and Wales if Scotland ever left the Union (with NI added if it was still in the UK)
Ken 500 The UN would not interfere, indeed when Spanish Civil Guards were sent to Catalonia by the Spanish Government to prevent an independence referendum taking place and arrest Catalan nationalist leaders all the UN Secretary General said was both sides should seek a solution through political and legal channels. The UK as a permanent member of the UN Security Council, unlike Spain, can also veto any substantive resolution put forward by the Council
HYUFD says:
First time I’ve bothered to answer you. It will be the last.
You truly are one numpty HYUFD.
Don’t waste your time answering as I will scroll past your handle.
Fuddy @5.18pm
Actually hilarious stuff there…!!!
Do you actually believe that steaming pile of hysterically inaccurate tosh ?
Like, seriously ?
ProudCybernat@4.11pm
Well said.
The “uk wide vote” brigade are not the smartest cookies in the jar.
……..
My response to one previously:
Ahh…the old “respect the result” argument…
So, all leavers are now demanding Scotland MUST REMAIN in the EU, since that is what the legally Sovereign Scots People expressed as their Sovereign Will ?
Anyone about to say “uk wide vote” can please explain what they think SOVEREIGN POWER/WILL means before saying it and looking rather stupid.
Hint: You cannot have a “uk wide vote” AND a Treaty of Union, they are legally incompatible.
If you do not have a Treaty, then there is no longer a United Kingdom, as the Treaty of Union birthed the Uk on May 1st 1707.
If you claim a “uk wide vote” then you are illegally subjugating the Will of the legally Sovereign Scots People, which breaches the express terms of Article 19 of the Treaty of Union and contravenes the Declaration of Arbroath (Scottish Claim of Right) which is protected in perpetuity (forever) by the Treaty of Union itself.
So, respect the 62% REMAIN vote, and we all look forward to ALL leave voters backing democracy be respected for Scotland and Sovereign Scots.
Note how i never mentioned N.Ireland voted Remain ?
Well, thats because they are not a Sovereign People, unlike us Scots, so they are not afforded the same legal protections by the Treaty of Union.
In fact, when the Treaty was signed, Ireland (1536) and Wales (1284) were PART OF the Kingdom of England and NOT signatories to the Treaty of Union, which only has TWO signatures.
The Kingdom of Scotland.
The (3 country) Kingdom of England.
Knowing your constitutional History helps you understand what is true and what is dribbling pish.
Everyone thinks WM is a Sovereign Parliament, for example.
It is absolutely NOT.
It actually WAS sovereign, between 1688 and 1707, after the ‘Glorious Revolution’ when Catholic King James was denied the throne in favour of a protestant (William of Orange and wife Mary) and the price of becoming monarch, was that sovereignty was handed to the English Parliament.
Which it duly was, for 19 years, and the Treaty of Union 1707, when the Sovereign ENGLISH parliament was put into permanent RECESS and the new United Kingdom Parliament was born.
The new uk parliament sat in the same building (WM) as the old, now defunct English parliament, but this small detail allowed the biggest political lie in history, to take root.
And 312 years later, people still, wrongly, believe WM is Sovereign.
It is not, never has been, apart from that 19 years between 1688 and 1707 when it was the ENGLISH parliament NOT the Uk parliament.
That is not my opinion, btw, that is Historical and Constitutional reality.
Easily checked.
………
Please note, any errors are my bad and happy for them to be pointed out and corrected. (RP …?)
Given the “organic” nature of English/Britain’s legal history and philosophy, I give myself more chance of passing myself of as Mariah Carey, than Scot’s do of being able to access their inalienable “Right to Development”, under any ‘New British Constitution’, written or otherwise. We are blighted with natural wealth, see. Bugger.
JUSTICE ANNUAL LECTURE 2001 : ‘THE EVOLVING CONSTITUTION’
link to justice.org.uk
Robert Louis 3.12 pm
Was it not Labour’s imposition of a percentage (40% of electorate) that caused the failure of the 1979 referendum in Scotland?
@HYUFD
The Scottish Parliament was never dissolved, If you are going to call out people for pish then it’s best not to reply with pish.
In 1707 the Scots Parliament was prorogued (suspended), and not abolished. It was certainly never ‘dissolved’.
The so-called ‘union of the crowns’ in 1603, was merely one person inheriting TWO different crowns from TWO separate kingdoms. Much as James 6th wanted to unite both, it proved impossible.
Tom Busza
Yes. It was. It was a disgrace, and had that not happened, Scotland would have had its own parliament way back in 1979. A lot of Scots to this day do not know Scotland actually voted in favour of devolution and a Scots parliament in 1979. It was LABOUR who blocked it.
Labour have done nothing, absolutely nothing for Scotland. As soon as they are elected into government in Westminster, they forget Scotland even exists.
CameronB Brodie links 5:09 pm
Please don’t take this the wrong way,
but if you post links to BritNat propaganda published by bloomsbury and written by
_Vernon Bogdanor_ of all people, then people here are going to start wondering just what it is you are trying to achieve?
For those who have not spent years being enraged by Bogdanors
self serving right wing exceptionalist Anglo Brit / Henry Jackson Society style of neocon Bilge
Save your blood pressure and just scroll on Buy.
link to en.wikipedia.org
I should have added to my comment above, that James VI, was no friend of Scotland. As soon as he inherited the English crown, he b*ggered off to London, never to return.
For London’s gold and all that..
@HYUFD 5:18pm
The ‘union’ of 1603 was a monarchic personal union not a political one. Scotland remained a sovereign state and actually went to war with England during the period of that personal union. Typically, you as an Englishman see the ascent of a Scottish king to the English throne somewhat differently, it could be interpreted that Scotland absorbed England.
As far as I know the English parliament never dissolved, Scots delegates simply took their places in it, similarly the Irish. Their is nothing Scottish, Welsh or Irish about the Westminster parliament, it is culturally and legally thoroughly English.
As to the UN and Catalan independence, the UN is a useless, toothless, incompetent outfit so reallly no surprise.
aLurker
The first job in dealing with a social problem is defining it accurately. That is the world we live in chum, wise up or for ever remain a possession of Westminster.
Bob Mack , Westminster did not devolve their sovereignty to the people of England for the EU referendum, the referendum was advisory. all UK referendums are advisory, cant be having the plebs being sovereign you know, as per normal the soveignty of the Scots is ignored or swept under the carpet.
Cameron
Ha! that is funny.
Bogdanor is the perfect archetype for Anglo British exceptionalism.
He is a political climber who masquerades as an impartial acedemic whilst carefully shaping a narrative to suit his agenda.
If people want an education in how to misrepresent History, start with him.
I had formed the impression that you were perspecatious enough to
perceive this for yourself.
I am beginning to think that I have profoundly misjudged you.
Have a nice day.
In case folk didn’t get the significance of me being a bit of a post-colonialist, I could never support British imperialism. Please don’t mistake guidance for endorsement.
Jeffrey Goldsworthy: Parliamentary Sovereignty’s Premature Obituary
link to ukconstitutionallaw.org
If Betty is alive and well when Scotland becomes independent that would be a similar situation to King James 6th and 1st in 1603.
Except she would have to be called Queen of Scots Elizabeth 1st.
At least until Scotland decided a position re: Monarchy or not!
🙂 Just catching up been away but it’s much the same here.
@CBB.
I suppose I should really just restrict my response to ‘ I rest my case ‘. None of the docs you posted mentions or acknowledges even the existence of the Treaty of Union. It’s exclusion frames all dialogue within English legal dominance regarding Parliamentary sovereignty( framing )
Which is really the point I was making.
@Robert Peffers 3:30
I too have been watching Ian Blackford ‘s speeches in Westminster develop over the past few weeks. Initially he received a lot of dissenting voices and taunting from the Tories but it has become less fervent in recent days and Theresa May has less to say in response.
He repeatedly emphasised to the House that Scotland voted to remain.
Then it became: ‘The people of Scotland will NOT be dragged out of the EU against their wishes.
Now I notice at the end of this speech that it is ‘The People of Scotland are Sovereign. Not this House!’ (thought that might please you :-))
link to youtube.com
Aaaaarrgh!
I just watched the Gordon Ross podcast:-
link to youtube.com
Sorry to say Gordon has got it wrong again. Maybe someone would care to tell him.
He almost got the first bit right but he has got the Scottish Act of confused with the Treaty of Union. He is not alone in that error. So I’ll try again to explain the situation.
The two, equally sovereign kingdoms agreed the Treaty of Union. Then each went home to their respective parliaments and had their respective parliament agree to the terms of The Treaty of Union and they did so with their own parliament’s Act of Union.
That is the Treaty is the agreement between the two Kingdoms and the two individual Acts of Union are those of the Parliaments that passed the ACTS
After which the Parliament of England passed a motion that put itself into Permanent Recession. Thus the English Act of Union belongs to a parliament that ended itself.
The Scottish Parliament passed the Scottish Act of Union and then only prorogued itself i.e. temporarily put itself into recess but then that parliament was reconvened by Winnie Ewing when opening the first sitting of The Holyrood Parliament. Now that means the Scottish Act of Union is still an act of a convened Parliament but that is not important for the Act is the old Scots parliament agreeing to the Treaty of Union.
So, with the proviso that Gordon means The Treaty of Union what he says is just what I’ve been telling anyone that would listen for nearly 70 years now. The Scottish Parliament and the legally sovereign people of Scotland have the legal right to end the Treaty of Union.
However, in England the Queen is legally Sovereign and the latest information that Gordon is talking about seems to indicate that Westminster cannot end the Treaty. Now I have, more or less, said that too as I keep pointing out that Westminster is the Parliament of the United Kingdom and not that of England, (as it has always acted as), and thus legally must speak for both kingdoms, and that there has been no parliament of England since 1 May 1707.
Anyhow, the request for the Westminster Parliament to run a petition to allow Scotland to end the TREATY of Union mat have just exposed what I have been claiming for 70 years to be correct.
Gordon’s other mistake is he fell for the Theresa buying a house in the Republic April Fool joke.
I’m trying to broaden folk’s understanding of the UK constitution and Scotland’s legal vulnerability to executive excess in Westminster. A parliament we have no voice in and, subsequently, receive no recognition or justice from.
Power and Principle in Constitutional Law
link to bjutijdschriften.nl
The Sovereignty of Parliament: History and Philosophy
link to oxfordscholarship.com
Parliamentary Sovereignty in the UK Constitution Process, Politics and Democracy
link to bloomsburyprofessional.com
The afterlife of Parliamentary sovereignty
link to academic.oup.com
I see some debate on the Union of the Crowns of 1603.
As I understand it, and I am sure Mr Peffers will have chapter and verse on this, had Jamie the Saxth been “King of Scotland”, with the then common divine right of Kings, when he inherited the English crown, England would have been absorbed into Scotland.
But, because he was “King of Scots”, and thus did not have the divine right of Kings to rule, since sovereignty in Scotland rests with the people – he had to high-tail it to London take-up the English crown.
Now, suppose he could have linked both kingdoms with Edinburgh as the capital, what followed might have been a lot different, and a lot more fun for us to consider.
Please folk, engage the grey matter.
I wrote to Vernon Bogdanor (very politely) some time ago about his language when referring to Scotland and its representatives
He did not reply and he still refers to Scotland in the same derogatory manner
@call me dave says: 5 April, 2019 at 6:05 pm:
” … If Betty is alive and well when Scotland becomes independent that would be a similar situation to King James 6th and 1st in 1603.”
Now I’m ready to be called wrong on this but apparently, (and as usual it might only apply under English law), the Queen/King themselves may choose what they are to be called but it would not surprise me if this is English propaganda – again.
@Robert Peffers
“Why would they need to? The raison dêtre of the SNP is to gain Scottish Independence.”
Regarding putting Independence first and foremost as the SNP’s principle commitment in their manifesto. Some would and have argued that not doing so in the 2017 general election cost them many MP’s. Personally I’m not convinced by that argument but nevertheless would do so this time.
The point is surely obvious and it is that is there is to be another election in the coming months it surely must be all about Independence and not about Brexit. The SNP at this next election should be shouting their raison dêtre from the rooftops because obviously there are those who still now fail to appreciate that.
@Robert Peffers
I said it with tongue in cheek. 🙂
But I knew the ‘hot chilli’ Peffers would be along, with others, to pop a certain unionist balloon from darn Sarf. 🙂
I’m off to watch the Scots wummin playing Chile on the streaming Alba channel.
1-0 🙂
The EU and UN did intervene. It was recognised Scotland has less democracy than the emerging Eastern European states to self determination and self governance. That is why Blair had to set up a Scottish Assembly/Parly (with as limited powers as possible. Warmongering imbecile) because Westminster unionists were not upholding the basic democratic aims partaining to Scotland. Appalling lies and disgusting cheating. Lie after lie after lie, Kept secret under the Official Secrets Act. Cowardly actions.
Westminster would have been chucked out of the EU/UN. The basic principles being erroded. They are going that way again. They will get chucked out of the EU and the UN very shortly. That is the poisoned chalice they are carrying. Now desperately trying to avoid it.
Scotland will go it’s own way. It has already. The only time the Scottish economy has improved is with Devolution and SNP governance since 1707. The Scottish population increased and more prosperity within the EU. If it was not for Westminster colossal interference. The Scottish economy would be even better. The Oil & Gas sector, farming, fishing etc managed better. More revenues raised. Like Norway.
@Robert Louis says: 5 April, 2019 at 5:45 pm:
” … As soon as he inherited the English crown, he b*ggered off to London, never to return.
For London’s gold and all that.”
Rubbish! James had a far better and legitimate reason for his actions and a wee bit of careful though would have shown it to you.
James was not sovereign in Scotland but was in the Kingdom of England. Furthermore, because he was not sovereign in Scots law he could not follow the protocol that was generally followed throughout Christendom – except in Scotland.
Under Divine Right of Kings if an existing monarch inherited, married into or defeated another kingdom in war the protocol was that monarch just added his newly won kingdom to his existing kingdom. James, not being sovereign in Scotland could not tag the Kingdom of England onto the Kingdom of Scotland.
So not being sovereign in Scotland but being sovereign in England he moved his court to England. It made no difference financially because he was still the Monarch of England whether he moved or not. He then spent the rest of his reign trying, and failing, to form a United Kingdom.
Honest, I really do hate the Romans, already. 😉
Cognitive Imperialism
link to researchgate.net
Decision-Making: A Cognitive Science Perspective
link to oxfordhandbooks.com
The End of Economists’ Imperialism
link to hbr.org
Economics imperialism under the impact of psychology: The case of behavioral development economics
link to epublications.marquette.edu
To be fair, HYFUD and his totally incorrect mutterings are always good for a laugh.
fuddily
How come there was still 2 parliaments? FUD don’t reply.
The UK can veto any help to Catalonia. About right. UK Westminster imbeciles trying to trash the the (UK) EU/world economy. That will not help Catalonia,. The UK, the EU or the world economy. It will not even help the unionist imbeciles in Westminster. They will take the fall out and it will not be pretty. The Tories/Labour/LibDems destroying their own Parties. Independence fo Scotland will be won. The SNP standing up for Scotland.
The Westminster unionist imbeciles are a world laughing stock. An absolute disgrace. The way they are carrying on is criminal. A bunch of complete and utter idiots. Ignorant and arrogant as they come. A bunch of complete lunatics. Everyone. Not an intellect between them.
Ha Ha Ha noo the Welsh ur feeling the Englishness nationalism .
Countess of Chester hospital are refusing Welsh patents other than Emergency/Maternity ah wee tip to our friends in Wales take your EC 11 cards & let them refuse you treatment , they can argue the toss with the ECJ .
OT but kind of links with my previous posts and the questions being raised re. the Prime-minister’s mental competence. 🙂
Robert Peffers says:
5 April, 2019 at 2:19 pm
Or conversely you would rush prematurely into a trap and get your head in your hands to play with…
What are you saying there Robert, that we are in agreement at what should done, but in disagreement about when to do it? That would seems a fair enough point where we might agree to differ.
But unfortunately you don’t get the point.
We’ve been told since way back before 2014 that a Constitutional route to Independence was stillborn because it would provoke a Unionist backlash, riots in the streets, the Ulsterisation of Scotland, and maybe even civil war. Pessimistic, but there is a degree of credibility in the fears, and there is certainly a Unionist agenda all too ready to play on those fears.
Now it seems in 2019, both yourself and Nicola are happy to keep Scotland’s Sovereignty peripheral to the debate, and downplay the imperative of Independence while you quietly set aside a sovereign Constitutional mandate and pursue unconstitutional Soft Brexit Option which has neither a mandate nor a majority.
Maybe you would like to forward your opinion on what you think the reaction of the Unionist community will be when they go to bed as UK citizens and SURPRISE! wake up Scottish with no more Union to sing about. You think that’s going to turn out well??? Phone Kaye on GMS and that’ll be that?
For my part, Yes, absolutely. I would have pursued an altogether different strategy. I would have spelled out a much more “hardline” Constitutional position from the outset, the unalterable position the law dictates, and instead of wandering through the wilderness these past 3 years having surrendered all initiative to Theresa May, both the EU and Westminster would have been obliged to treat a Scottish Constitutional Backstop with an equally delicate touch as they have handled the Irish Backstop.
They could NOT have excluded Scotland from Brexit negotiations, and all parties from the office of First Minister to the fattest retard in the flute band would have had three years to get their head around the Constitutional ramifications of Scotland’s people being uniquely sovereign in the UK, and the true Red White and Blue Union they believe in, is actually a study in sleazy Constitutional deception, and an unlawful usurpation of Scottish Sovereignty. Stick that in your flute and smoke it.
Had the people of Scotland for these past three years been patiently, and thoroughly briefed on the fullest ramifications of Constitutional Sovereignty, it is inconceivable that Scotland would have been obliged to put up with the wall to wall indoctrination and propaganda of the BBC, and we might instead have developed a whole new Scottish news and public affairs media to redress the prevailing imbalance of our so called news media. Instead we have Gordon Ross and his Indy car carrying the flag for us. Absolutely no slight intended against Gordon, he’s terrific, but where the fk are OUR TV stations and journos eh?
Ultimately, when the Brexit arguments had run their course, with every argument thoroughly exhausted, if Brexit, and Scotland’s Constitutional route to escaping Brexit, had been central to the whole Brexit debate, every man, woman and child in this country, in England, and all over Europe would have understood the inevitable and unavoidable conclusion that Constitutional law was going to deliver. Scotland would be an Independent Nation inside the European family of Nations, and there wouldn’t be soul left believing they had legitimate or lawful cause to dispute the conclusion.
That’s where I’m coming from Robert Peffers. I frankly couldn’t care less about your beloved SNP. Their agenda and strategy has been a bewildering enigma to me, and frankly, I think it’s been an enigma to a great many Yessers and also a great many of themselves. I’d prefer the sure footed and deliberate march to independence, not this flighty and indecisive ”making it up on the hoof”.
This democracy and fistful of mandates is a chaotic merry-go-round where nobody knows what to do with the mandates and majorities the people give them. 53 out of 56 wasn’t enough. What are you showing me another GE ballot for? 62% voted Remain. What are you showing me another Referendum for?? We had an IndyRef in 2014 where voting No was just as Sovereign, and just a pointless as voting Yes. What point did it serve, and what argument did it actually resolve? Round and round it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.
Do I know better than they? WTF??? Who cares? What does that matter? The only objective is getting Scotland out of this accursed Union and set free to soar and thrive as it will, and as is its right. I don’t give a flying fk who’s signature is on the bottom of the deed, and who gets all the Brownie points. It won’t be me. I’ll crawl back into the woodwork and you’ll never hear from me again.. Just stop fk’n about with these interminable, democratic dead end parlour games and pull the fkn lever marked “Sovereignty”.
The biggest threat to our Sovereignty is NOT an ephemeral mandate in a superfluous referendum (with or without a Section 30 bollocks Agreement). The biggest harm and injury we can suffer upon ourselves is making our wonderful and legitimate Constitutional Sovereignty appear as if it’s merely a trick of desperate last resort, and a TKO victory delivered by a jammy Stewards Enquiry… but I fear in genuine earnest, that’s the very destination you’re bringing us towards. When all else has failed, we’ll wheel out Sovereignty.
Now do you see?
I fear the people of England who believed they were voting for a Brexit nirvana returning what they thought or hoped their country to be what was promised them have made the most dreadful mistake of allowing the extreme right wing zealots of that country to overwhelm it past the point of no return
The Tommy Robinsons the Farages the Johnsons the Moggs and the vile internet brigade have stolen England from the English and the English media who don’t care about anything except promoting trouble for ratings and newspaper sales have compounded the problem
While I do feel a certain amount of pity for the Welsh because they have no choices in these matters, Northern Ireland and Scotland will inevitably take action to shed this febrile and dangerous out of control country of England
The UKIP and Tory parties are on the verge of being thrown out of the EU parliament for their language, and formal complaints have now been issued to the president for decisions
Videos of their behaviour are on Utube or Alyn Smith’s newsletters (links provided) and if you do look these up view the public comments from England below on what they feel should be done to the EU and Scotland, and when you do if you weren’t a Independence supporter before you will be when you’ve finished viewing and reading
Knowing what the Brits want is a classic mug’s game, knowing what they don’t want an enigma.
The first king of Iraq, Faisal never penetrated the veil of inscrutability. What he did learn was that ‘they’ wanted to keep him a powerless puppet and would socially divide and sub-divide the country to do it.
The Brits did not even know why they were in ex Ottoman Iraq but they believed that sometime in the future it would be ‘handy’. There was ‘some oil’ and it kept Johnny Foreigner from getting his grubby hands on it.
@ronnie anderson
Pooling and sharing, the broad shoulders of the UK.
Ooops.
Considering how close the border is, and how many from Wales actually work in Chester and contribute to its economy, an absolutely disgusting move.
It also means neighbours in the “suburbs” of Chester will have different hospitals to go to.
“Knowing what the Brits want is a classic mug’s game”
Says the man who thinks the Israeli Defense Force is ethically acceptable in its’ practice.
Abulhaq
How do you propose solving a problem if you do not understand its’ nature?. Btw, the Brits always knew what they were doing in Iraq, sure you’re not a trained dissembler? Mind now, I know a bit about post-colonial theory and stuff.
Alyn Smith MEP:- ”If anybody is in any doubt about false flag trolls and bots operating in Scottish twitter… I would invite a brief glance at my timeline. We’re in danger of being played folks, remember @scotorbot is there to help spot nonsense.”
link to twitter.com
………………………………………
”Good piece from ?@JenniferMerode? on my call for sanction of UKIP’s inappropriate language. They’ve abused the Parliament too long and we need to learn the lessons of brexit. Enough.”
link to twitter.com
……………………..
link to alynsmith.eu
Robert Peffers says:
5 April, 2019 at 6:18 pm
@call me dave says: 5 April, 2019 at 6:05 pm:
” … If Betty is alive and well when Scotland becomes independent that would be a similar situation to King James 6th and 1st in 1603.”
Now I’m ready to be called wrong on this but apparently, (and as usual it might only apply under English law), the Queen/King themselves may choose what they are to be called but it would not surprise me if this is English propaganda – again.””
…….
No it is not English propaganda it is fact. The monarch chooses the regnal number they wish to use.
This was the judgement handed down in the Court of Session in 1953 in the case of McCormick vs Lord Advocate.
Lord Cooper was one of the appeal judges.
Surprised you did not know that but I guess even Homer nods
Joanna Cherry:-
”Another excellent piece of writing from ?@joycemcm? on #Brexit & #indyref2 link to scotsman.com …”
link to twitter.com
@Legerwood
Mmm, in that case I guess the next monarch will be King Charles LXIX.
Geeo @5.32pm
You nailed it 100% with that post.
You should post it on every thread until we leave the EU. I am not convinced by those who argue the UK will not leave the EU. It will happen – they are just dragging it out.
A person would be on a hiding to nothing trying to engage or educate most of you lot on anything to do with Constitutional Law in the present day.You are stuck in 1707 and think nothing has happened since then.
What a Gammon fest BTL tonight, I wonder who can shout Scotland is sovereign the loudest? Is that grunting and chest thumping from Auld Bob, Cubby and geeo?
Hi cassandra.
And what is YOUR up-to-date input into this constitutional debate?
Here’s a good one, all the gammons that wanted blue passports and the words European Union removed from them could have had that all along.
It never was a requirement to make them burgandy and stick “Citizen of the Europeon Union” on them. Hahaha the gammons are quickly running out of reasons to gripe.
“There will be no difference for British citizens whether they are using a passport that includes the words ‘European Union’ or a passport that does not include the words ‘European Union’. Both designs will be equally valid for travel.”
link to archive.fo
Come on then Cassandra,we’re always up for a bit of education.
We all know things have moved on,things get written down and things become convention… Such is the nature of Constitutional Law.
But mind…. we also all know nothing,nada,not a word of that 1706/7 Treaty has changed.
So please,don’t give up before you’ve even started,the floors all yours!
yesindyref2 says:
5 April, 2019 at 7:39 pm
@Legerwood
Mmm, in that case I guess the next monarch will be King Charles LXIX.””
….
Not sure how you reached that figure unless of course you are questioning the veracity of the content of my post. Are you?
My personal opinion is that Charles will take George as his regnal name which would make VII his regnal number.
One reason for not taking Charles as his regnal name is of course the argument that would ensue as to whether he was Charles III or IV – Bonnie Prince Charlie muddies those waters and they wont want to open that can of worms.
yesindyref2 says:
Nah, toilet humour never did much for me 🙂
OK, time for some more Legal Philosophy and Constitutional Law?
link to lawteacher.net
Power and Principle in Constitutional Law
link to bjutijdschriften.nl
Natural Law: The Ultimate Source of Constitutional Law
link to nccs.net
Natural Law and Human Rights in English Law:
From Bracton to Blackstone
chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2480&context=journal_articles;Natural
@Legerwood
It’s a joke, LXIX is 69 …
@cassandra
Tell us what you think is going to happen, nobody will believe you anyway.
Methinks, perchance, cassandra has been banished to WOS btl by Billy Goat Gruff, as some sort of penance.
@Legerwood says: 5 April, 2019 at 7:27 pm:
” … No it is not English propaganda it is fact. The monarch chooses the regnal number they wish to use.
This was the judgement handed down in the Court of Session in 1953 in the case of McCormick vs Lord Advocate.”
Ah! I think you may have misunderstood my final remark, Legerwood.
I knew the Court of Session case of 1953 but that was not what I was on about. Did the judgement follow Scots law or did it follow English law? Thing was they were ruling over a United Kingdom Monarch and thus that could be English or Scottish law that had the Monarchy have their own choice of designation.
The circumstances at that time were that hot-heads were blowing up Scottish Pillar-boxes in protest at the choice of ERII when there had never been a Scottish ERI. It has never been clear to me it the royal right to choose was a right under Scottish or English law.
As the Monarchs of Scots have a somewhat less claim to sovereignty but are basically employees of the sovereign people this claimed right to choose their own designation has always seemed to me to rather be at odds with their, shall we say, employment conditions.
It wasn’t clear at the time and is no more clear today. Mind you we didn’t have an internet to Google for the explanation in those days and I had a very busy life at that time.
Yesindyref2 @ 8.46
That’s not true..
I’m perfectly willing to believe Cassandra,if it’s the truth.
@Liz g
Ha! You broke the curse! You redeeemed cassandra 🙂
Now I can believe her too if she tells the truth.
Now, what did she say earlier. Oh, nothing.
Jings! Maybe it was John McTernan ‘Nostradamus’
Aye I cant believe it!
Remember the other one: Rita Webb and Francis Alick Howard
—————————————————————-
Cassandra : Pompeii’s citizens will befall the fate of the sinful men of Gomorrah!
Lurcio : Will they, indeed?
Cassandra : And Sodom
Lurcio : Ooh, I agree, the lot of them!
———————————————————–
A bit of fun is good in the face of Brexit. 🙂
I remember Cassandra in the Paper in the 50’s – 60’s when I was
young. Had a column to himself.
OT
Driving into Inverness on A9 from Black Isle south of the Bridge I spotted the Butcher’s Apron flying from a pole above the barracks. It’s always there. Thankfully mostly obscured by trees but it looked like a bigger flag than previous.
Maybe my imagination. Or not…
I suspect it also has a lot to do with the SNP campaigning FOR Scotland’s continued subjugation at Westminster, instead of independence.
(England’s) People’s Vote being the most recent example.
Because, let’s be honest, if the SNP take independence out of the equation, there is not that much difference between Labour and SNP Holyrood policies.
Take heart, not long now till we are free.
England faces the prospect of civil war, the torys are split and labour the other cheek of the same arse are fighting like rats in a sack.
Freedom awaits!
Methinks, perchance, Colin Alexander has been banished to WOS btl by Billy Goat Gruff, as some sort of penance.
Here’s a wee mini conundrum…
If your monarch isn’t sovereign, then what actual status is his kingdom anyway?
A kingdom is a territory ruled by a king, but in Scotland, the land where everybody is sovereign, what territory does the King rule beyond the bit his feet are currently stood upon? – And even that is only temporary until he moves to another bit, and only ever by consent of the people.
Wouldn’t that make the United Kingdom consist of all the land and chattels of England, but only the 2sq ft of Scotland Her Maj walks upon if and when she happens to be in Scotland?
Here’s an article on the prevalence of bots in social media. Humans are apparently bad at telling the difference between a human and a bot, so sophisticated have they become.
Link originally from the Alyn Smith tweet on identifying bot tweets, provided by Petra 7.22pm
link to theguardian.com
Breeks @ 9.37
The theory is, that we invest our Sovereignty in the Monarch and charge her/him to guard it.
That’s why he/she signs our laws and represents us in a official capacity.
We reserve the right to change the Monarch for another,that need not be of her/his lineage, if they fail to protect and defend our Sovereignty.
Sorry – archive version:
link to archive.fo
Robert Peffers @ 9.09 pm
You can read this extract of the judgement of the Court of Session in the McCormick vs Lord Advocate. I do not think it was solely a matter of Scots Law or English law in this matter as you will see when you read this extract
link to en.m.wikisource.org
yesindyref2 says:
5 April, 2019 at 8:40 pm
@Legerwood
It’s a joke, LXIX is 69 …””
…………
Don’t get it.
@cassandra says: 5 April, 2019 at 7:56 pm:
” … A person would be on a hiding to nothing trying to engage or educate most of you lot on anything to do with Constitutional Law in the present day.”
I won’t even bother answering that except to say whatever you attempt to say next will most certainly be utter mince,
re. the British constitution. How’s about a bit more Legal Philosophy to highlight just how far off the beaten track the New Right has managed to drag English/British politics.
Scotish culture must not be allowed to perish at the whim of Oxbridge social Darwinists. Where are Scotland’s legally trained minds (apart from SNP HQ)?
link to socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk
Robert Peffers
You really are a bit of a fanny.
Cassandra@7.56pm
Now who else liked to call independence supporters gammons. Oh that’s right it was Essexexile. Are you essexexile?
Or just another ignorant Britnat.
Cubby
We have our own sub-species of tartan-gammon on our side.
Tomorrow’s Herald determined to undermine Nicola Sturgeon’s positive message to EU nationals
@Legerwood says: 5 April, 2019 at 10:06 pm:
” … I do not think it was solely a matter of Scots Law or English law in this matter as you will see when you read this extract.”
Well before I even read it let me point out that is exactly the point I am making. It simply isn’t clear what rule of law is behind the decision being handed down from the bench in the early 1950s.
Secondly it has never bothered me one way or the other. The reason being that back then no one was going to shake the beliefs held by most of the population of the United Kingdom.
For it was still then a very much United Kingdom. Just a handful of years after WWII. We seekers after independence were at best treated as the lunatic fringe and at worst the enemies of the United Kingdom State.
The SNP leadership were being followed around by the security services. Here are a few facts:-
1941 (3 May) – Police raid the homes of Roland E. Muirhead at Lochwinnoch; Arthur Donaldson at Lugton, Ayrshire (who was held without charge for six weeks); Prof. Douglas Young and Bruce Watson in Aberdeen; and Muriel Gibson in Glasgow. They were suspected of “subversive activities” because of their alleged links to the pacifist Scottish Neutrality League.
Good Grief Willie McRae wasn’t killed until 1985 and Willie was being shadowed by MI5.
What the monarch chose to designate herself was the least of our worries. The numpties blowing up pillar boxes were only holding back the SNP’s journey to being a legitimate political party.
Yet here we are today as the Scottish Government but it was a long hard road. Yet the fact remains that the United Kingdom is a bipartite union of two kingdoms and it was constituted by the Treaty of Union and that Treaty must still be a live treaty or there could not be a United Kingdom and there is the solution that has been there since 1707.
A Youtube site with snappy little videos on aspects of BREXIT – mainly.
TLDR
link to youtube.com
Alex Rowley shouting “Look everybody I can count to two.”
That alone makes him to advanced for Slab.
OK, back to basics. Britain is a union managed as a unitary state. As one, so to speak (see Brexit). The English Law is the Moral Law that underpins the British constitution. English Law is immutable to the effects of international Treaties, unless ratified by Parliament.
Parliament has never ratified the Treaty of Union as the foundational document of the Yoonyawn. Instead, Magna Carta was adopted as the foundation of British constitutional and human rights law, as it was already to-hand and recognised as a body of English moral law. Unfortunately, the Prime-minister doesn’t appear to know who Magna Carta was, clearly evidence that British human rights protection is not universal.
That is easily solved through rational-self determination and independent, democrat moral sovereignty for Scotland.
When Eliza keels over soon. The right Charlie and the greedy sychophants will probably finish off the ‘monarchy’. Never has there been such a bunch of leeching sychophants. Psycho bastards. Greeting and wailing about their mother. ‘The killer Wales’. According to Di used and abused by them. Joining in in illegal wars killing off other people’s mothers to protect their tax evaded wealth, A bunch of right wing Tories.
The right Charlie gets £20Million a year (plus the rest). Pays 10% tax. £2Million. Then tax evaders the rest. Along with the rest of the bunch. Accommodated all over Windsor Park and elsewhere. How many rooms do they need. Along with the pampered corgis. They get better food than some of the citizens. Sanctioned and starving. Multimillionaires troughing of taxpayers money. Lecturing everyone else to save the planet while they are the biggest troughers in the world destroying it.
They are supposed to be impartial heads of State. Keep their mouths shut and mind their own business. Instead of sticking their nose into Gov business. Going on about mental health. They and the rest of the Tories are causing, Abusing their position. Dresses and coats £5,000 at a time. Instead of paying taxes.
Lady Di tipping through the minefields. Then associating with the biggest arms dealer in the world. Al-Fayed. Two halfpennies short of a shilling. The lot of them. They caused the 1WW and have never apologised. They had to apologise for what they did to Ireland. The illegal Partition. The illegal Balfour Agreement. Lord Balfour and Lord Rothschild. Millions have died because of it.
The Poll tax implemented by unelected Rothschild and Thatcher. Scotland’s economy devastated. Blair’s illegal wars. He should have been put in jail. Charlie dancing with the Saudis. The British Arms company/dealer illegal Saudi bribes. Sanctioned illegally by the UK Gov since the 1960’s. Harold Wilson. If they paid their taxes there would be less need for charity.
Norway sovereign fund is investing $14Billion in Renewables. Even the Saudis have sold off the last of their Oil holdings and are investing in renewables etc. While the ignorant, Westminster incompetents are spending and wasting £Billions on Hinkley Point, HS2 and Trident. There are already enough wasting, rotten, contaminated hulks lying at Rosyth.
@Cubby 10.36 pm
Oh dear Cubby or are you geeo? You are really indistinguishable. Why do you think anyone critical of you is a britnat? Do you really think you do the Independence movement any favours with your arrogant, ignorant cheerleading of the repetitive posts on here?
It is the same stuff day in day out no matter what the article is above the line. The same people vying to get one over on each other and score petty points.
Always the same paranoid last line, the idea that someone who is critical is a britnat. Why do need to know who I am, are you going to come to my door, out me to my employer? Are you threatening to Doxx me?
Get over yourself. Someone on the internet said something you don’t like. Grow up.
Isaac Asimov: “I, Robot” (2004)
Arthur C. Clarke: “Shut up, Hal” (2001)
Futuristic.
Moral Law is another CORE subject.
moral law
link to dictionary.cambridge.org
Pains me to point this out, but many WOS regulars appear to have gone silent.
Is it just fatigue?
Or could it be construed as an unofficial ‘strike’ due to the political doldrums we find ourselves in?
It’s great that so many can still find something to say about this, that and whatever else, but so long as this ‘B’-related shite continues? we are not going to get – and should not, therefore, expect – any indication of when indyref2 is likely to happen.
That’s understood, aye, but it’s not pleasant to feel marooned -being castigated for expressing as much just makes the predicament a lot worse.
I’m only speaking for meself, but there will surely be other supporters of this place who don’t appreciate being slapped over the wrist and sent to Dunce’s Corner whenever they express frustration.
So, here’s yer Friday night quiz. Who said this, when, and why?
‘The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.’
😉
Honest.
International & Comparative Law Quarterly
link to cambridge.org
CameronB Brodie says:
5 April, 2019 at 10:16 pm
Robert Peffers “You really are a bit of a fanny”
Cameron Brodie- with your endlessly irrelevant and jejune scholastic references, it’s fairly obvious who the fanny is- and it’s not Robert Peffers.
Magna Carta has no place in Scots Law.
that was W. B.Yeats, Ian Brotherhood.
I’ve never quite made up my mind what he meant, considering the events that happened.
Maybe he was galled the people took over, rather than an elite aristocracy, such as he belonged to.
Ireland had James Connolly, a Scottish-born Socialist of Irish background, to thank for that! For giving a voice to the ordinary working people.
To come back to today, I do wonder how Scotland is going to move to achieve her Independence
Go away Brodie you shameless, spamming prick.
Scotland as an autonomous nation will look forward to a sustainable future as an equal partner within a bigger structure that actively and financially supports its ‘vast potential in the green economy’ and socio-economic progress.
‘Support SMEs to exploit the economic potential of new markets and to compete globally (internationalisation) as a route to growth; facilitating job opportunities, particularly in ‘Smart Specialisation’ sectors – such as offshore wind, wave and tidal energy or marine bio-sciences, the food and drink industry etc benefitting regions all across the country.
Increase investment in low-carbon technology and development to exploit Scotland’s vast potential in the green economy’
link to ec.europa.eu
‘The Funds make up one-third of the entire EU budget and are a significant commitment to helping all of Europe develop as a single market, as a trading community and as a social bloc. Scotland has been allocated up to €944m through the European Structural and Investment Funds programmes for the period 2014-2020, to deliver the EU2020 strategy of Smart, Sustainable and Inclusive Growth’
link to gov.scot
Packhorse Pete
Not you as well? Have you studied British Constitutional Law and International Law? Do you support the rude dismissal of Other’s opinion? Sure your in the right movement?
Reluctant Nationalist
I clock where you’re coming from long ago, don’t you worry.
@CBB
We all did.
Cassandra you sure take the same approach as Essexexile.
Aggressive and offensive posts.
Gary 45% at 11.19.
Your comment about Alec Rowley counting to two is rather let down by your incorrect use of to when it should have been too.
As they say it takes two to tango !
@ Ian Brotherhood – we’re in the doldrums, drumming our fingers impatiently. Nothing has changed!
Another extension? The Tory Party implodes? The Westminster roof caves in?
Nicola says she underestimated the incompetence of the Westminster government. Didn’t everybody?
Something has to happen soon. If they go for a year long extension then I expect an Indyref to happen in June.
Ken500 No nation can be expelled from the UN as it is supposed to represent all nations on earth, what an absurd point, indeed no nation has ever been expelled from the UN in its history. That is even more so as the UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
As for the monarchy once our great Queen passes away the monarchy’s future will remain secure helped by the popularity of William and Kate and Harry and Meghan, indeed not only do 68% of British voters as a whole think the monarchy a good thing but that rises to 61% of 18 to 24 year olds.
link to yougov.co.uk
As for renewables, no mention from you of the likes of Thanet offshore wind farm or Gunfleet Sands offshore wind farm at Clacton on Sea I see, or the Wave Hub in Cornwall and Kielder Water hydroelectric plant in Northumberland, or the use of solar panels to power the housing development in Hackbridge in London or the geothermal power plant at United Downs industrial estate near Redruth or the Southampton District Heating Scheme
Hi fud
You are talking rubbish again.
“Can a Member State be expelled from the United Nations?
Article 6 of the Charter reads as follows:
“A Member of the United Nations which has persistently violated the Principles contained in the present Charter may be expelled from the Organization by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.”
This has never happened.
Article 5 provides for the suspension of a Member State:
“A Member of the United Nations against which preventive or enforcement action has been taken by the Security Council may be suspended from the exercise of the rights and privileges of membership by the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council. The exercise of these rights and privileges may be restored by the Security Council.””
A political generation in Westminster is a week and if that’s not enough we’ll keep voting for the same thing over and over again even when we’re told it’s against our own rules, we will keep doing it until we win
In Scotland it’s never ever again for as long as any of you shall live and if you mention it one more time we’ll threaten you with something
68% ‘rises’ to 61%?
HYUFD
Learn to argue better, you’re attempting to subvert moral reason, which is a task way above your pay-grade, Toryboy.
Argument
link to youtube.com
Get out of here Brodie, mate. You dialed it up to 100 so no one can escape your copy-and-paste segathon, and now you’ve spunked your load so much nobody short of a saint won’t think you’re a twat. You’re shite mate.
“aLurker 12:42am
He doesn’t know anything he just believes he has the divine right of Tories to speak and be obeyed
Oh and of course the right to invite himself to places he’s not wanted and spout it to what he believes are lesser mortals than himself, his imperial duty to educate us
Reluctant Nationalist
You really aren’t a fan of law and science, are you? Still want us to believe you have a PhD in Psychology?
aLurker As I said the UN has never expelled any member state and as the UK is a permanent member of the UN Security Council with a veto power it would obviously veto any recommendation of its expulsion or suspension by the Security Council anyway
Oh dear, Cassandra, another empty vessel on WoS.
A previous poster, sadly banned now, used to claim I am Cubby, Cubby is me, as well as a few other posters.
At least i keep good company in my own head huh ? (har de har ha).
Were you not just about to explain to us mere mortals, YOUR version of Constitutional reality and detail precisely when, using what changes in Constitutional legislation, that happened ?
Of will, as seems more likely, you go straight to personal abuse, reporting of said abuse, and off to the hammers room for you ?
You can then trot off with the rest of your split personality dilemna .
geeo
Hopefully you trust me by know. Time for some Ethics and a bit of Evolutionary science and stuff?
Ethics of Persuasion
link to lumen.instructure.com
Perspective on Ethics in Pesuasion
link to pdfs.semanticscholar.org
Persuasion Ethics
Two Traditions as Bases of Persuasion Ethics
link to department.monm.edu
What Is Ethical Persuasion?
link to youtube.com
Ian Brotherhood @ 23:55,
It may possibly have something to do with the current level of dross of various kinds btl, plus aspersions far too readily cast by relative arrivistes even at regulars. Personally, I find I’m doing a great deal of scrolling-past these days.
But there have been a few voices elsewhere that have also fallen silent. Maybe during this Brexit “phoney war”, people are taking the opportunity to get on with lives that heretofore have been kept on hold for too long, but will return reinvigorated when the blue paper for indy is (finally!) lit.
Meanwhile, I have new computers – Linux, another kind of liberation! – to get fully configured and stuff completely transferred onto so I’m off again now… =grin=
@ Ian Brotherhood says at 11: 55pm … “Pains me to point this out, but many WOS regulars seem to have gone silent.”
Ian I must say that I REALLY miss many of the “regulars” who seem to have just p*ssed right off. Stu, or whoever, says that 300,000 people visit this site and yet around 30 people post on here on a daily basis. Forget about the “silent regulars” just ask yourself why any of the 300,000 minus 30 odd Independence supporters (with some who are just charlatans anyway) dont want to venture on here. It’s not too difficult to work that one out between one thing, person, and another. Maybe Stu should think of carrying out a polling exercise to that effect? Enlighten us all.
Time for yer kipp monsiour Brody. You are making spelling mistakes.
@
CameronB Brodie
Honestly cameron, do you honestly think anybody reads your shite?
Mr peffers gives us history,you give us shite upon shite ,and yet you call him a fanny,
cognitive relevance and all that jazz MR.
As a lurker I try to read some of your posts but honestly I have to by pass , you think you are educating the masses but you are really pumping yer own ass , give it up please , the minute someone disagrees you hit them with some text and then call them a fanny??
Mr Peffers in my book has educated more wingers than your gobbledegook.
me @ 01:37,
What I wrote certainly doesn’t apply to WGD, who just seems to go from strength to strength. I salute his indefatigability – and I mean that in the nicest possible way.
He has a cute joke in his latest:
The ingress was rain-related, I think, but one mustn’t spoil a good jibe. And the building certainly represents in tangible form the current degraded state of its politics.
link to weegingerdug.wordpress.com
(Oh, and if we don’t get out in good time, we’ll end up subsidising the billions that will no doubt eventually be spent restoring that decrepit wreck. Reason enough on its own to come home, I would say.)
@
Robert J. Sutherland
Or is it a case of pulling the plug ??
Lets waste another day?
The mind boggles eh?
Perfidious Albion I believe.!
Big Phil
“shite upon shite”
Take your head out your arse.
Big Phil
Or to put more diplomatically, what is shite about law and science that is relevant to Scotland’s sovereignty?
If folk want to turn the blt comments on this site into a misogynistic tartan-gammon circle-jerk, they are not doing the site owner justice so don’t expect me to cooperate. I’m a critical thinker not a right-thinker.
@Big Phil
Some of us do read some of CBB’s “shite upon shite”, or at least the abstract, I’m not the only Winger to have posted saying that.
An important article by Wings own Dave McEwan Hill in The National:
link to thenational.scot
When auld Eliza keels over and they all start fight over the tiaras. The twisted low lives. While people are dying on the streets. The lying hypocrites Killing and starving people to protect their stolen £Billions and have the nerve to accuse others of destroying the world. They are Party to the kill of mothers for pitie’s sake. To try and protect the evil dynasty. Now led by an actress. Poetically. Like rats in a sack. Mental health. They should know inbred low lives They killed and starved half the world. The dynasty of colour. That will put the cat among the pigeon of privilege. The lying snob slobs will waken up in horror. At the down grade. Sinking privilege. The Brexit ship has sailed. Right onto the rocks. Stuck. What a muck up.
All in it together. The stinking thieving Tories destroying the world. Some imbeciles never change. The Tory halfwits have been criticising the EU for years. The only way the UK economy changed after the devastation of Thatcher destroying the world was EU membership. It was EU membership that provided jobs and cooperation, human rights and good social Laws. The Westminster imbeciles now seeking to destroy. To destroy the world economy once again. Most of them should be in jail. Along with May and the rest of them. Sanctimonious liars. Lie, after lie after lie. The halfwits that get taken in by them. The emperor has no clothes. Walks like a penguin. Pings Waffles like a duck. What an absolute embarrassment. Thick as muck.
Bowing, scrapping and dribbling like a fool. While the water floods in. There could be no better metaphor. Off you go.
Weatherspoons going down the swanney. That’s their Brexit for them. It couldn’t happen to worse folk. Stick it up your jacksey. The walls come tumbling down. Green in trouble trying to rob the pension fund again while molesting folk. What a joke. ‘Sir’ stirrer.
In the current climate it seen a fair enough question…
But it is a rhetorical one.
Cameron B Brodie & Robert Peffers
Are you two Menstrual or something ? ….
Not a good look Gents,please agree to disagree and move on.
Lizg at 0732am,
Have to agree. Must be something in the water. I used to think CBB was quirky, for people into that kind of thing, but, ‘mostly harmless’.
@Liz g says: 6 April, 2019 at 7:23 am:
” … Cameron B Brodie & Robert Peffers
Are you two Menstrual or something ? ….
Not a good look Gents,please agree to disagree and move on.”
Nemo me impune lacessit.
Liz, you got carried away by these trans interventions on the Rev’s twitter??
While I’m no adverse are a bit o meddling myself
(Some say I’m really good at it But I couldn’t possibly comment 🙂 )
We’re all on the same side here …. Aye…
Anyhoo it’s early too early to be “finding any Nemo’s” at this time o the morning,so you kid’s need to behave!!!
Dorothy Devine @ 8.00
Aye Dorothy,but don’t be telling him 🙂
Benhope@12.20am
Sorry Ben – confused !
To – from one to two.
Too – as well as.
So counting from one to two is grammatically correct.
Pogo is better than a tango too !!!
Robert Louis @ 7.38
Cameron is actually a very nice guy and contributing what he can to the site in his own way…. As is Robert..
It’s bizarre that they’ve clashed like this!!
Which makes me think definitely Menstrual 🙂
@CameronB Brodie says: 6 April, 2019 at 12:11 am
” … Not you as well? Have you studied British Constitutional Law and International Law? Do you support the rude dismissal of Other’s opinion? Sure your in the right movement?”
As mentioned before, there is no such thing as British Constitutional Law. Except perhaps in a generic way. Britain is not a political state and thus British Law is a term that can only correctly refer to the grouping of the individual constitutional laws of the several individual political states of Britain.
Furthermore by referring to British /constitutional Law but actually mean English Constitutional law or, even worse, give the impression that the United Kingdom has other than two distinct and protected forever by the treaty of Union you do Westminster’s propaganda for them.
There simple is no unified British Rule of law – constitutional or otherwise. However, carry on and your only success will be to destroy any credibility you may once have had.
@ CBB.
Cameron, I’m sorry to see that you seem to have gone completely over the top regarding the Constitution and Parliamentary Sovereignty.
My point, and I make this for the last time, is that everything that is written and discussed in the papers you have posted is seen from an English perspective, the usual England is the UK perspective. It is a deliberate ‘ framing ‘ of opinion. Scotland’s legal position has been totally side lined and misrepresented.
The Treaty of Union is the founding document of the UK, you would think that would be a cause for celebration, most states do, look at at America, not here though, why?
The people of this Island have absolutely no idea of the significance of the Treaty and the repercussions which will ensue once that treaty is dissolved.
Rob Peffers, has distilled down to basics, almost elementary, a beginner’s guide if you like, as to how the UK was created, Scotland’s position in the UK, the People of Scotland’s sovereignty and Westminster and the Crowns position within the UK. There is no ambiguity, misrepresentation or lies, just basic information which is easily understood and digested. That is the kind of information the people of Scotland need.
@Golfnut “My point, and I make this for the last time, is that everything that is written and discussed in the papers you have posted is seen from an English perspective, the usual England is the UK perspective. It is a deliberate ‘ framing ‘ of opinion. Scotland’s legal position has been totally side lined and misrepresented.”
Yes, which seems to be the same point as CBB is making …
… the clue is in such as “English/British politics” and “The English Law is the Moral Law that underpins the British constitution.”
Don’t you – and others – get it?
Basically RP does it his way, CBB does it his way.
IT’S THE SAME FUCKING THING!
And by the way, James VI and I was what you’d call these days of corporate “mergers” a reverse takeover. Like RBS taking over NatWest but really becoming NatWest, like BOS and Halifax merging but really becoming Halifax (though BOS tries its best).
Reverse takeover becase the reality of that is, that England was abosrbed into Scotland, near 100 years before the Treaty of Union.
Basically speaking, we own England 🙂
God help us all.
Robert Peffers says:
5 April, 2019 at 10:51 pm
@Legerwood says: 5 April, 2019 at 10:06 pm:
” … I do not think it was solely a matter of Scots Law or English law in this matter as you will see when you read this extract.”
Well before I even read it let me point out that is exactly the point I am making. It simply isn’t clear what rule of law is behind the decision being handed down from the bench in the early 1950s.””
……….
Well if you had read the extract you would have got the answer to your question, a question which you raised in the first place but you now claim is of no importance.
The law in this particular case was administrative law.
And, if I remember correctly , at least one of the protagonists in the case was a prominent Nationalist, Ian Hamilton.
Could a solution or compromise to this continuing dispute be that the posters in question submit an article to the Rev?
Any resulting threads could be contained therein, freeing up the Rev’s articles to be discussed properly.
Has everyone gone mad? The Treaty of Union is not the British constitution, no matter how many times Robert insists it is. It is the document that created the union, but it is not the British constitution. Does anyone read any of the material I post?
Look, English Law is the Moral Law. The Prime-minister has chosen to ignore the Moral Law. Brexit turns Britain in to a totalitarian state.
@CBB
I feel your pain but having dipped my toe once or twice into that cesspool I’m reluctant to go back!
SilverDarling 😉
Sad to come on here and see long time wingers falling out.
I know we are all feeling the strain waiting for ‘something’ to happen, resorting to insults and name calling is very off putting and will not bring new people here.
Just a few links today as I’m not feeling too good.
link to gov.scot
Mhairi Black: Labour is wrong on freedom of movement – it’s great for us
link to archive.fo
link to theorkneynews.scot
“Because we’re no afraid – Ever. The love we’ve got, it’s real, it’s fire. It’s permanent sunshine.”
Watch #AmBuidheannDubh. #Scotlands grassroots are the verdant, fearless, independent blades of change, that’s why the union’s feart.
link to twitter.com
link to independent.ie
Week in Review: Theresa May’s only consistency is failure
link to archive.fo
Barnier to visit Dublin for Brexit talks on Monday
link to rte.ie
Yesterday on #PoliticsLive I made the point that @scotgov were the first to offer a compromise in 2016 that Scotland would be able to stay part of the single market and have free movement around the EU, which was ignored.
link to twitter.com
What a WOW moment this was! @nlcpeople @Nlspb2 schools pipe band have just brought Grand Central Station in New York to a standstill with a brilliant impromptu performance
link to twitter.com
Nana
Noted, I’ll try to be less direct. 😉
Okey-doke, let me explain this startling idea. Act of Union with England, similar to the Treaty of Ubion starts:
“That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England shall …”
but since James VI took over the English crown as James 1 there is a problem with this – whatever the unionist history would like to convince you of, there weren’t separate kingdoms of Scotland and England, there was only one. And that was the Kingdom of Scotland, enlarged to take in England. But as many other high-faluting rich dudes of the time did, he preferred the smoke of London to the pure air of Scotland. Silly boy.
So how can you have a Union of Kingdoms, when there IS only one? So the Treaty of Union and Acts of Union were duds, and England is still part of Scotland. All we have to do, is let it go. Sacking Theresa May and the Conservatives as a gesture of good will on our way out. We’ll need more deodarant to get rid of their stench.
Anyways, here’s an interesting bit of stuff I found for some light reading:
link to media.scotslanguage.com
Nana @ 11:46,
Special thanks for the link to that video of the pipe band in Grand Central Station. What a brilliant venue, and the glorious sound of the pipes in that great space. As always, brings delicious shivers all up my back.
Just a wee foretaste of what it’s going to feel like on the day we finally stand up for ourselves again…
Yesindyref@6.17am
We used the gourock-dunoon ferry last friday en route to Islay ferry at Kennacraig.
Wasnt planned route, we ‘forgot’ to remove ferries from quickest sat nav route to kennacraig and ended up with a choice, jump on the 20 minute ferry to dunoon (more like an open barge than traditional idea idea of a ferry) then back on the long and winding road, saving 50 minutes, or back trackong the non ferry route we should have originally followed.
Drove up, paid, rolled on/rolled off 20 mins later.
We made the Islay ferry by 1 minute to spare, due to heavy traffic on road to kennacraig.
That wee much maligned ferry route, saved our weekend.
Thanks for the links Nana and sorry to hear that you’re not feeling too good. Hope you get well soon X
This link fairly cheered me up. Brilliant.
”What a WOW moment this was! @nlcpeople @Nlspb2 schools pipe band have just brought Grand Central Station in New York to a standstill with a brilliant impromptu performance.”
link to twitter.com
…………………………………………
@ yesindyref2 says at 6:17 am …. ”An important article by Wings own Dave McEwan Hill in The National:
link to thenational.scot
Excellent article from Dave McEwan-Hill and interesting to see who actually sits on the Board of Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd (CMAL) that ”owns the ferries, ports, harbours and infrastructure necessary for vital ferry services serving Scotland.”
link to cmassets.co.uk
Nana. sorry to hear that you’re not feeling too well, hope you feel better soon.
I’m not posting much myself just now. I’ve got a bad case of brexititis and it’s wearing me down. Also the old arthritis is playing up, makes it harder to type.
Shairlae shum mishtake – Alex Rowley (left), boattum phoatae.
@geeo
It;s a great ferry service, I use it 3 or 4 times a year. But the Dunoon to Gourock one is a passenger only one, two silly wee boats more suited to leisure sailing on Loch Lomond and even then would be port bound at times!
@Petra “and interesting to see who actually sits on the Board of Caledonian Maritime Assets Ltd (CMAL)”
I don’t actually recognise the names basically, so couldn’t comment!
geeo at 2.04
That was not the ferry we were talking about. That is the Western Ferries service to Hunters Quay. We were talking about the Dunoon to Gourock and the railway connection ferry
Hi Dave McEwan Hill mentions:
“That is the Western Ferries service to Hunters Quay.”
“Hunters Quay” was the name of a rather “playing everywhere” Dundee band in the 70s/80s.
I Wonder why they chose that name?