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Another thing we don’t understand

Posted on July 27, 2013 by

Our old pal Tom Harris fits awfully comfortably into the pages of the Daily Telegraph for a Labour MP representing a poverty-blighted Glasgow seat. But there’s something a bit odd about the ugly little piece on immigration he penned for the paper this week.

immivan

See if you can spot it.

“Too often those who oppose repatriation fail to follow through the logic of their arguments; allowing every illegal immigrant to remain in the UK is, in effect, an open-door policy, the adoption of which would show utter contempt for an electorate which is, contrary to most media coverage, rather more tolerant of immigration and knowledgeable about its benefits than it’s given credit for.

But tolerance does not extend to a cross-border free-for-all, and all the parties should be honest about that. I can think of very little more damaging to community relations in this country than the development of a perception that those who played the system, who came here illegally and who remain here despite numerous court decisions that they have no right to remain, can nevertheless stay without any interference from government.

However unpalatable such a conclusion, it is one shared by most parties – certainly by those serious about inviting voters to put them into government in 2015. By launching such a cynical campaign for party political advantage, the Conservatives have made it just that little bit more difficult for a rational debate to be heard.”

Did you get it? Harris’ message is that it doesn’t matter whether you vote Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, UKIP or BNP at the next Westminster general election, because you’ll be voting for the same immigration policies.

Can anyone tell us what the “rational debate” would actually be about, then?

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    73 to “Another thing we don’t understand”

    1. HandandShrimp says:

      Farage has them running scared down in Westminster. They are all vying for a bit if that UKIP action. Trouble is that the Daily Heil types blame Labour for the wholesale legal immigration and the illegal bit is just a sideshow. If illegals are caught they are generally punted anyway, it is a bit academic. It is catching them with a massive backlog of paperwork and investigation made worse by cack handed policies from Labour and the Conservatives that is the problem and that isn’t going to change.
       
      The adverts are a joke and assumes that the illegal immigrant can even read the fecking thing.

    2. Tony Little says:

      When Harris refers to “cross-border” free-for-alls, I do wonder which particular “border” he is referring to?

    3. Vronsky says:

      You could just Fisk it, Rev – like this:

      “Too often those who oppose repatriation fail to follow through the logic of their arguments; allowing every illegal immigrant to remain in the UK”

      Straw man – few would oppose repatriation of some illegals.  A uniform policy for every illegal is fascistic – it attempts no contact with humanity and common sense. 

      “But tolerance does not extend to a cross-border free-for-all”

      Straw man.  Nobody said it should.

      “and all the parties should be honest about that”

      By ‘all the parties’ he means Tories, Labour and Lib Dems.  Honest, them?  Pigs might fly.

      “despite numerous court decisions that they have no right to remain, can nevertheless stay without any interference from government.”

      Whoops – there goes the independence of the judiciary.  Politicians should decide, not courts.

      “However unpalatable such a conclusion”

      You mean your loony conclusion that politicians (sweet people like you) should be able to overrule the law?  Do you know why that is unpalatable? Hello?

    4. Juteman says:

      There are political parties that exist to serve the people that founded those parties, and there are politicians that exist to serve the party.

    5. southernscot says:

      Its these blooming foreigners again. You know the wrong sort, the poor ones, from Afghanistan, Somalia, Iraq,Syria,libya Pakistan etc the countries the west invaded, destablised, supported corrupt regimes. Not the nice rich ones, who invest hundreds of billions in the city of London and buying up property, you know the sort, Lovely democratic places like China, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc.
      Reading the CIA  World Factbook got the UK as money laundering centre. Makes you so proud to part of the UK.

    6. Dinnatouch says:

      So an open door immigration policy would show contempt to an electorate which is tolerant about immigration and knowledgeable about its benefits? Errr… pardon?

    7. ianbrotherhood says:

      Could we get a van out there with ‘Have You Seen This Woman?’ and a six-foot portrait of Johann Lamont on the side?

    8. ianbrotherhood says:

      The ‘Johann-Van’ should also play this full-volume as it drives around the nation:
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DruxTYLRNbA

    9. Andy-B says:

      It seems to me it wasnt that long ago, Theresa May, and her border agency fellows didnt have a clue how many people were coming into the country.

    10. mealer says:

      Farmers For Yes launched today.Led by grassroots,working farmers.
      Sometimes I think we spend too much time worrying about what NO Scotland are upto,and not enough time spreading our positive message.

    11. handclapping says:

      The rational debate in terms of the piece has to be how much violence can we use on them as we eject them from our green and pleasant land.
       
      The irrational debate which they would probably indulge in is when is a door not a door, when its a jar but how much ajar should it be?

    12. panda paws says:

      “Harris’ message is that it doesn’t matter whether you vote Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat, UKIP or BNP at the next Westminster general election, because you’ll be voting for the same immigration policies.”
      I think the word immigration might be superfluous in that sentence!
       

    13. The Man in the Jar says:

      Regarding the poster on the van. I feel like I am in the UK illegally! 🙁 Can I get out please?

    14. Tamson says:

      @Ianbrotherhood:
       
      In all seriousness, how much would that cost
      ?

    15. Juteman says:

      2015?

    16. Sneddon says:

      Maybe in regard to deporting illegal immigrants the home office may want to reconsider making UKBA staff redundant as part of the austerity cut backs- morons.   By the way the biggest group of illegal over stayers are aussies, go figure.  Harris is a mad man.

    17. lumilumi says:

      TMITJ, 😀
       
      These silly vans aren’t aimed at illegal immigrants, they’re aimed at the little Englander voters, to show them that “the government is doing something about immigration”.
       
      I mean, if you were an illegal immigrant, would you call the number and be deported at Her Majesty’s cost to somewhere where you have nothing, no prospects, no future?
       
      A week or two ago BBC online had a clip of the Met and London social workers trying to shift Romanian “gypsies” from Marble Arch (Romanian=EU=legal) and one guy said, having nothing in the UK is better than having nothing in Romania.
       
      The UK is a victim of its own past success. The Empire bites back. Hopefuls from former colonies have been coming to the UK for decades, and spread the word back home: rich, fairly fair country with opportunities.
       
      Today UK is also an attractive country to legal EU immigrants because of the global success of the English language. The Nordic countries have better welfare, maybe slightly worse weather (longer, darker winters, but Finnish summers are warmer and sunnier than English or Scottish ones!) but languages nobody has learned in school, whereas most people have learned some English, the new global language. That directs hopefuls towards the UK, the US, Canada, Australia, NZ…

    18. Krackerman says:

      Might be a different conversation after the 1st Jan 2014….

    19. James Morton says:

      take another look at the racistvan – its all in English and without any sense of Irony has the words “Go Home” in it. This isn’t aimed at illegal immigrants, this is aimed at saloon bar bigots and UKIP voters. Illegal immigration is a problem, but seriously is this the way to deal with it? Whats next? a movie called the “eternal immigrant”? The daily mail and the express to become “Der Sturmer”?

      When that unholy arse Darling waffles on about being better together I want to grab by those ridiculous eyebrows, take him to see this and ask “are you f*cking Kidding me”?

      The bullshit has to stop. In 2014 we can consign it to the dustbin of history along with the union.

    20. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Would now be too early a time to suggest that Nigel Farage will be the next occupant of Number 10 Downing Street? After all it is HIM who seems to be providing ALL the immigration policies for the LibLabCon party these days! 😆

    21. lumilumi says:

      I’ve been a “foreigner” for many years of my life, starting from childhood. That is, I’ve lived in a country other than that of my birth, first due to my dad’s job, then my own travels and jobs.
       
      I never experienced much racism or xenophobia. Only afterwards I’ve realized it was because of blonde hair, blue eyes, fluent English.
       
      It was in Australia in the early 1990s – when Australia was at its most liberal – when I first saw the ugly face of racism. My boyfriend, I, and some friends had been surfing, afterwards met some other friends of friends in the pub, and one of them went on a diatribe agaist ‘foreigners’. I pointed out that I was a foreigner, he brushed it aside, “You’re not that kind of foreigner, you look all right and you speak proper English.”
       
      Ouch.
       
      What if I’d had dark hair, dark skin, brown eyes, hadn’t spoken such fluent English?
       
      I was 26 at the time and it really made me think. Everybody’s a foreigner in every country except their own. Why are some countries more acceptable than others? I’m priviledged because I come from a rich western country, have got a university degree, had all these opportunities, travelled, etc. And I’m lucky because I’ve got blonde hair, blue eyes and speak fluent English. I’m a foreigner but “not that kind of foreigner”, the kind that disgusts “the Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells”.
       
      I love Scotland and my Scottish friends because we joke about our big bully neighbours and I think Scots have “sisu” (hard to translate, it means guts, bravery, determination, standing your ground, honesty, hard work, I love the fact that the Finnish language has one word that encapsulates it all.)

    22. theycan'tbeserious says:

      Maybe there is only one partial brain in the wasteminster government/union, and they all have to share it? Just a thought!

    23. Yesitis says:

      OT
      More of the Tory/Labour best friends forever routine…
      https://twitter.com/ianssmart/status/361184812985368576
       
      This will become more strained next year as the blue and red Tories fight for supremacy in the 2015 UK general election. Saying that, Labour have probably lost it anyway, so they can afford to be without any redeeming qualities whatsoever in the run up to that election (particularly in Scotland).
      But then we know that already.

    24. crisicult says:

      This is a topic very much close to my heart. My other half is from a ‘poorer’ country, and one with not great political relationship with UK. In the 2 years she’s been in the country, and the slightly more than 2 years we’ve been married, we’ve seen several changes to immigration laws: introduction of 18,500 minimum earnings per year for 3 years to stay on a spouse visa (you can go and live in another country if you fail that, though it’d be interesting if that other country had the same rule – I guess you’d get stuck in an airport like in the Tom Hanks movie); increase to over a 1000 pounds for ILR visa, now 5 years to apply for citizenship, increasingly difficult to bring in laws to visit and reputedly no chance of them getting more than a 5 year visitor visa.
       
      I was having a heated discussion with someone last night about independence and using this as one example of how annoyed I get when people talk about the need for certainty to vote for independence. She wanted to know exactly what the start up costs will be on independence. I wasn’t able to give her figures so she felt that proved that people can’t possibly be expected to vote yes with such uncertainty. 
       
      I then went on to my second favourite subject after visas; employment law. 3 years ago could you have told me that by august 2013 you’d have to work 2 years before you could claim unfair dismissal, that you’d need to pay nigh on 200 pounds to bring a tribunal claim if an employer won’t pay you shortfall in wages or unpaid holiday? That an employer could buy off your right to claim unfair dismissal, and that by 2016 you might be out of Europe and potentially lose many other employment rights that those interfering bureaucrats on the continent want so force on us such as protection as fixed term workers or part-time workers?
       
       
      Please can people start getting the message that a vote for no is NOT a vote for the status quo!! I know I’m preaching to the converted here but you can sense my frustration. 
       
       

    25. cynicalHighlander says:

      I am not ordinary apparently!
       
      https://twitter.com/Stewart_Whyte/status/361180533834780672

    26. roboscot says:

      As soon as I saw that van on the TV news I thought it was aimed at voters rather than illegal immigrants. In a language not long ago that would not have been used even by the Conservatives, and now we have had a Labour PM talking of “British jobs for British workers”.

    27. AnneDon says:

      I notice there is no mention of refugees from the war-torn countries “the West” is democratising. At any given time, they seem to form the largest group of “illegal immigrants”. By definition, they come here without permission.
       
      Harris shows himself to be more contemptible every time he switches on his PC.  I’m not surprised he’s at home on the pages of The Torygraph – most Labour MPs are.

    28. Yesitis says:

      Cynical Highlander
      I am not ordinary apparently!
       
      No, I am not ordinary apparently! 🙂

    29. lumilumi says:

      The Tories are history in Scotland, anyway, the Libdems are going their way. Labour in Scotland? It’s bleeding and getting weaker by the day. The SNP reaps all the benefits. It wants independence but after becoming a mainstream party, they have to be moderate.
       
      The SNPs victories in 2007 and 2011 ought to tell something to the Westminster power elite, but they’re sticking fingers in ears and going ‘La la la, I’m not hearing you!’
       
      If “they” ever wanted to save the union, they should’ve listened to Scotland for the past twenty years or so. They didn’t, and have no clue about modern Scottish politics.
       
      The old song TWTPTS doesn’t work so the Tories employ their biddable Scottish Labourites to do their dirty work. To deliver the message of Better Together, doom and gloom.
       
      The BBC and all MSM (even the papers that are hiding their plummetting sales by becoming regional rather than national – yes, Scotsman and Herald, I’m talking about you) are anti-indy. It’s a miracle if any pro-indy stories get reported. We here at WoS and other sites know the truth but most Scots don’t.
       
      The most appalling outcome would be a thin NO vote. Confirmation that Scotland isn’t a country, just a region of Greater England, and won’t be ‘subsidised’ by the hard-done-by voters in SE England.
       
      Enjoy.

    30. Tony Little says:

      @crisiscult
       
      I was dismayed by what you posted here.  I have been married for almost ten years to a non-EU national, and although we have never decided to return to the UK it was always a possibility for us to consider.  She does work, but locally and has nothing like that kind of income,  I do earn considerably more so is the annual salary “joint” or for the spouse alone?  How discriminating is that.  We have a small child, so the UK is basically saying it would rather split up the family of a British Citizen, rather than allow his/her spouse to live together in the UK
      I will have to investigate this further.  Jeez, what a racist country it has become.  I would hope and expect that an iScotland would be both more compassionate, and more sensible. 

    31. The Rough Bounds says:

      I think some of you are burying your heads in the sand and pretending that what’s happening in England isn’t happening, and that it won’t/can’t happen here.
      England is in a mess as regards immigrants: illegal and legal. It’s overloaded with them. It’s having a bad effect in their medical systems and is overloading the social services and the schools with too many languages being spoken in classrooms so the teachers are being stressed out.
      There are areas in some of England’s cities that are No-Go areas for whites. In some parts you won’t hear a word of the English language and it feels as if you’ve been mysteriously transported to Saudi Arabia or Somalia.
      It’s tempting to be smug and say that Scotland isn’t like England and that we are a welcoming people.
      Will we be so welcoming to immigrants to someday find that we also have No-Go areas for whites in parts of Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen or Edinburgh?
      When we start to see road signs in Arabic being put up in Glasgow City centre as has happened in London, will we still feel so secure in our own culture?
       
      A friend of mine who teaches Gaelic at Sabhal Mor Ostaig in Skye told me that an English bloke who has lived on the island for the past twenty odd years complained to my friend that there were far too many English living on the Skye now and that it’s having a negative effect on the native culture.
      It’s not your skin colour so much that makes overkill with immigration a bad thing; it’s being overloaded with an entirely different culture that causes the problems.
       
      And England is being overloaded.

    32. Hetty says:

      Not just racist, but very much to the right of politics in general, a recipe for disaster.
      The media, ie mostly tory rags, don’t even pretend to have any empathy with the poor, the sick and disabled, so called immigrants are an easy target. This will just stir up more racial hatred against anyone not fitting into the narrow stereotype of uk-ness.

    33. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Crisiscult and @ Tony Little – Your worries are close to my heart too. I do hope that our new nation will be as compassionate and caring as befits our recognised place in the world. Like many others on this forum I have experienced first hand the mention of ‘Scotland’ or ‘Scottish’ in other parts of the world, and to put it simply ‘DOORS ARE UNLOCKED, MEALS ARE PREPARED IN HONOUR, AND ACCEPTANCE IS AUTOMATIC’
      My question is this – If this is how us Scottish folk are accepted and treated by some of the most humble people in the world then surely it is incumbent on us to return the same?
      I do believe that being Scottish is part of a larger vision that should not be shackled by visa constraints that separate families. This country of mine has a history of taking its acceptable, adaptable and enormous caring spirit throughout the world. With that comes responsibility for the consequences and I hope that once Westminster self implodes, Holyrood will fly the flag of international status throughout the world. We just have to wait a wee bit till the politicians catch up, though some are doing the job.
      Ok soapbox tonight and all comments welcomed. I am just excited about meeting a Yes campaigner today whose wife had a mini-kilt on. I should get out more eh?
       
       
       

    34. Caroline Corfield says:

      Road signs in Arabic, oh how horrid, I was in Dubai recently and all the road signs were in English and Arabic and no one seemed to find it an issue there, perhaps in Dubai they’re more secure  with who they are and the fact that ‘foreigners’ outnumber them in significant quantities. The attitudes of the English tend to create ghettos and no go areas because they don’t make integration easy. Scots demand integration of immigrants, and defend those immigrants who do so from such as the UKBA. London is a international city, a major world financial hub, it might be a tad difficult to pull that off without foreigners living there. In an integrated global economy you cannot be isolationist, that belongs with the days of Empire when you could expect British to be in charge all over the world. The reaction against immigrants and foreigners is a vestige of Empire. A canny trading nation like Scotland knows the worth of an immigrant – someone who has everything to gain from making a go of it. I couldn’t care less if i was the only white face on the street where I lived, or if I walked into a cafe and only heard other languages. This is my country and I belong here, so why should I feel intimidated because I share it with others? and btw I’ve never heard anyone complain about Jewish things like that wire which gets you round the sabbath, there’s one strung up around a bit of Gateshead, funny that. It’s ok to complain about sharia mortgages, but not Jewish wires, as far as I’m concerned both are not interfering with my freedom why should it not be allowed? If you agree to dispute resolution via any organisation it’s your decision, the actual laws of the land still apply, there cannot be sharia only law – it’s simply can’t happen no matter how much the Daily Mail wants to publish stories that it has. 

    35. ianbrotherhood says:

      @The Rough Bounds-
       
      ‘I think some of you are burying your heads in the sand and pretending that what’s happening in England isn’t happening, and that it won’t/can’t happen here.’
       
      If ‘it’ happens here, we’ll deal with it, same as we’ll deal with everything else that comes with being a responsible, mature, decent, progressive and independent nation.
       
      Don’t you believe we can and should do that? Or do you believe Westminster is better placed to address our probs?
       
      I’m not angling for a scrap here – your point is a fair and oft-raised one.
       
      Bottom-line is this – no-one’s pretending independence will be a cake-walk, but we’ll be faced with the same problems troubling every other First-World nation whether or not we break free of London. 
       
      No single problem justifies maintaining the status quo so long as the status quo is the major problem.

    36. Marcia says:

      Sunday Herald front page:
      http://twitpic.com/d51cmz

    37. scottish_skier says:

      Around 20% of the population of Scotland is not ‘Scottish’ (in primary national identity). That’s a fairly high ‘immigrant’ population and on a par with the rUK and other European countries, if not higher.
      I’ve never understood this to be a problem.

    38. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Rough Bounds – It’s tempting to be smug and say that Scotland isn’t like England and that we are a welcoming people.
      I wish I had read your post before I took the time to post mine. Are you suggesting that Skye has become an English ghetto? I think not.
      However I would like to point out that the influx of East Europeans to the North East over several years was nothing to do with immigration but to do with menial but better paid work than in their own countries. Now that those countries have caught up economically many of these economic workers are going back of their own accord.
      The teachers in Peterhead have learned to cope with Latvian, Polish, & Lithuanian students and the Aberdeen Universities churn out highly qualified non EU students. Are you suggesting that Scotland will become a haven for illegal immigrants on a mass scale?
      I can recall a time when the media was full of how English incomers was the end of the world and it took all the efforts of the Police to quell the natives. Sort of ironic isnt it that your friend is so absorbed into the Skye community that home is where the heart is.
      I hope you agree with me and previous posters that it would be good if the SG post independence looks very carefully at immigration. I am not an expert but I wonder how our Scandinavian neighbours deal with it.
       

    39. CameronB says:

      IMO, the Establishment use race, religion and class, as their standby tools of division. As Caroline said, it is a legacy of the good old days, when the sun never set on the empire. There is a whole industry built around this process of division, commonly referred to as the Houses of Parliament and the MSM.
       
      If Scotland really aims to be a modern, socially democratic, humane society, then we are going to have to carry out a root and branch reform of our public institutions. Hopefully this can be driven by a principled and ambitious constitution.
       
       

    40. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ Caroline – A canny trading nation like Scotland knows the worth of an immigrant – someone who has everything to gain from making a go of it.
      Well said

    41. BuckieBraes says:

      @ianbrotherhood:
      If ‘it’ happens here, we’ll deal with it, same as we’ll deal with everything else that comes with being a responsible, mature, decent, progressive and independent nation.
        
      ‘An independent Scotland will deal with it.’
       
      I can think of a lot worse as a slogan.
       
       
       

    42. Geoff Huijer says:

      I worked around Birmingham and often drank in the Lozells Inn in Lozells ( a supposed no go area for whites especially after dark) on a Friday or Saturday night. I always wore my kilt and although Jamaicans and West Indians ‘had’ the front bar and Asians in the back I was accepted and welcomed by both. They saw me being Scottish as more of a foreigner down there than them (e.g they had newspapers for their community but there rarely Scottish papers to be found). They always made sure I was seen getting into a taxi ok though!
      Living in Walsall I took a mate to see Scotland v Holland at Euro ’96 – and although John would’ve supported England at tiddly-winks he was amazed at the friendliness of both the Scots and Dutch. When back in Walsall late at night an Asian taxi driver saw my kilt and stopped (in Caldmore, a bit of a ‘dodgy’ area) and warned I wasn’t safe walking those streets. I told him I lived there and toddled off home.
      Immigrants I always found nice. The only problems I ever had were from English people but there are good and bad everywhere.
      If any immigrants moved into the other 5 flats in my block here I would welcome them as the neighbours they would become. I certainly wouldn’t move out. Ghettos are created when sections move out because they don’t like ‘them’.
       

    43. crisicult says:

      @tony little
      I just did a search for the official information, which seems to be here
      http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/visas-immigration/partners-families/citizens-settled/spouse-cp/can-you-apply/financial/
       
      I found out about this when was giving some advice in CAB to a couple, the husband was Scottish and an artist, the wife was American. Due to the unpredictability of his income from his art, he had a part-time job doing I can’t remember what, but he was earning a lot less than 18,600 and didn’t have big savings. I haven’t checked all the details on UKBA site just now but as I recall, the non-British spouse’s income didn’t count, though joint savings could count. I remember thinking, as we uncovered all this info, that I was lucky to get in with my wife when we did. It also links to the point made by Rough Bounds – yet another UK policy, whether it works or not, that is designed for a specific area of England where most of the UK voters live. I wouldn’t want to get involved in a debate about whether Scottish people are any more anti immigrant than any other group of people in this world because it’s not really the point. The point is exactly the one I’ve made – that this policy has no justification in Scotland.

    44. CameronB says:

      @ Archie [not Erchie]
      Hope you saw my enthusiasm fizzle out the other day? I would still be happy to meet up on the day of the march though, with yourself and anyone else who cares to. We could gently spread Yes good vibrations, which would be in stark contrast to the backdrop of the SDL. I hope there will be a good turn out for me, or us. 🙂
       

    45. Linda's back says:

      Check out the Lockerbie and Labour Gadaffii arms deal on Sunday Telegraph story tomorrow

    46. molly says:

      Do you mean Rough Bounds in places like Perth, Stirling or Glasgow, (Australia, Australia, Nova Scotia ?
      Until recently I sponsored a child abroad , a small amount of money was sent every month and in that tiny way ,he was able to attend school, learn a trade , eventually help his Family. Now the charity , based in the UK have decided the money is to be shared amongst other projects. This is a problem for me because like a number of immigrants to the UK, while Britains priorities have changed, like my child , the immigrants who came here, settled here ,had Families here ,their priorities have not .
      This unfortunately  appears to be how GB plc  appears to work. You get people on board then halfway through you change the rules(endowment policies, banking, pensions,immigration policies) ,take your pick, and while people are blaming ‘immigrants legal or otherwise ‘they are not asking the difficult questions.
      The NHS in England is not in the state its in because of immigrants, its because its blighted by PFI and too many vested interests and one day when all that is left is the name -NHS , the electorate in England will have to acknowledge, they voted for that -not illegal immigrants . 
      To see something as demeaning as that van , really brings home what kind of country we live in. Try and survive and we’ll target you, bring a country to its financial knees and we’ll not only promote you, we’ll put you on TV and laud you.

    47. Krackerman says:

      The Tories love mass immigration – more competition for jobs = lower/supressed pay and workers rights. This also gives the right wing some handy leverage in the old divide and conquer of the working poor.
      Win/Win all round for the capitalists…
       
       

    48. Tony Little says:

      @crisicult
       
      Cheers mate, I’ll check it out

    49. southernscot says:

      Nice post Caroline, the only thing I could add is that millions of Scots have emigrated to the four corners of the globe over the last few hundred years and been welcomed the world over. Its nice to reciprocate.

    50. Doug Daniel says:

      You never hear Daily Mail types moaning about French, German, Italian or Dutch immigrants, do you? Of course, they’re Good Immigrants, people who’ve come here from rich countries, so they must be middle class folk. They might even read the Daily Mail themselves! Not like those Bad Immigrants from what the UK considers to be poor countries, who must only be here to get free healthcare and don’t even have the courtesy to speak in the Queen’s English at all times.
       
      No, we’ll have Good Immigrants only in the UK. After all, that’s the only type of immigrants we sent out to the former colonies, to show the locals how to do things properly and extract their wealth to take back home. And how do these former colonies repay us? They send immigrants over here, impose their culture on us and send their money back home. It’s just not fair!

    51. Atypical_Scot says:

      British culture is not shared, it is imposed. I am British by imposition. We all are. Slowly but surely I am understanding the concept of ‘cringe’ (thanks Juteman). The lines between taste and programming are quite indistinct until one is questioned – and one is receptive to reconciliation to that which seems foreign. 
      Until very recently, my concept of Scotland and he/she/it’s/our independence was confined to political control for the obvious reason that Westminster is shite. Only with  a better understanding of how to be inclusive of what I used to ignorantly define as ‘cringeworthy’ have I began to open my eyes to the bigger picture.
      I have spent half of my life, (touch wood) believing that Britain has highjacked the notion that being Scottish is not as important as the tone of Scottish politics, which, in a multicultural sense, it is isn’t. But, as has been pointed out to me on this site, it is the essence of being Scottish that envelopes Scottish politics, rather than vice-versa. 
      I hope that makes sense, I know it does to me, I actually feel a part of something special. Which doesn’t happen to me very often. Get in.

    52. Arbroath 1320 says:

      Sorry for going O/T here Stu but thought folks might be interested in this little ditty about a certain Mr Blair and his entourage. It would appear that Mr Blair and his cohorts are NOT as squeaky clean as they would want us to think they are when it comes to the TRUTH about the release of Abdul Bassett al Megrasghi and the linking of it, or not, to Libyan oil!
       
      http://forums.govteen.com/countdown-forum/370615-lockerbie-bomber-release-linked-arms-deal-according-secret-letter.html

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10206659/Lockerbie-bomber-release-linked-to-arms-deal-according-to-secret-letter.html

    53. Peter says:

       We knew about blair/brown and their dirty little deals back in 2007. Kirsty wark got quite upset about the matter with the First Minister as I recall.
         And still unionist ("Quizmaster" - Ed)s and cringers attack the Scottish Government for obeying the law. 
          Yes up to 37% in the latest poll in the Times.   And the quizzles insist that support is dropping in every attack they make. Hideous people they are.

    54. ianbrotherhood says:

      @Arbroath 1320-
       
      Cheers, for good stuff.
       
      Are we to assume that Blair/Straw et al are contriving to blame Alex Salmond?
       
       

    55. Doug Daniel says:

      SNP are on 48% in that PanelBase poll, with Labour on 30%, Tories 13% and Lib Dems 4%. That means the SNP are polling higher than all three unionist parties COMBINED. That’s quite incredible after 6 years in government. 

    56. Tom says:

      And bit by bit England slides towards Fascism.

      I sincerely hope Scotland votes to reject going with them in 2014.

    57. Marker Post says:

      @Ian Brotherhood
      @Tamson
      “In all seriousness, how much would that cost?”
       
      Not much at all… see Johann on a Van
       
       

    58. Roll_On_2014 says:

      Another good article in the Sunday Observer by Kevin McKenna.

      Can Labour ever regain its credibility

      The headline picture even shows ‘Wonder Woman’.

    59. Braco says:

      Anyone who I meet and is a worthy friend to me, gets officially inaugurated into Clan Braco, usually willingly, but always in open eyed amazement!  It’s never expected by them and always more appreciated than I can ever really understand.
       
      I want Scotland to be the same and grow with those that love our philosophy of a civic Scotland, whether they live here or not. If they come, we give them the tools needed to succeed (if any) and Scotland succeeds!
       
      We are an empty nation, very few grouse get an HND and if they do, rarely make it past the shooting season! I was forced to fly, but I will be back. Why not my fellow Clansmen/Clanswomen, should they want to join me?
       
      Oh and Rough Bounds, road signs is it?  FFS really?
       
      I have a brother who had the audacity to marry an African. An African………. can you imagine?! I mean think of the road signs!

    60. Marker Post says:

      Glad this is getting some publicity – Holyrood under pressure to scrap Barnett formula.
       
      Vote no, get less.
       
       

    61. john king says:

      Ian Brotherhood says
      “The ‘Johann-Van’ should also play this full-volume as it drives around the nation:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DruxTYLRNbA

      wouldnt this be better?
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVYxKRXDT2I

    62. scottish_skier says:

      Does anyone have the N figures for the Times panelbase poll?

    63. Archie [not Erchie] says:

      @ CameronB 11:33pm – Fizzle out? Never crossed my mind, I am still smiling at MajorB’s inferred offer of grapes and juice while we are being treated in ERI A&E. Will post on here when, and if, BT really do send out freebies. Or mabye they have already sussed me out.
       

    64. Krackerman says:

      I’m confused – are those who claim they see no problem with mass immigration aware of this official report?
      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10158678/Immigrants-create-overcrowding-and-fuel-tensions-report-finds.html
      “The researchers surveyed 80 local authorities and service providers on a variety of issues such as health, housing and social cohesion. Their responses were assessed by a panel of 12 experts.
       
      They found that asylum seekers were likely to put the greatest strain on the health system.
       
      Researchers found they are more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety and mental illness, while immigrants in general were more likely to suffer from tuberculosis, HIV and and Hepatitis B.
       
      “This suggests the treatment costs for certain conditions and diseases may be disproportionately attributable to immigrants,” the report says.
       
      Migrants also have more children than people in Britain, creating “additional demands for midwifery, maternity and health visiting services”.
       
      Their poor levels of English meant that GP appointments took “appreciably longer”, leading to longer waiting times for other patients and increasing costs.
       
      Local authorities raised concerns that in some areas demand for primary school places “outstripped supply” because of the number of immigrants, while social services experienced “higher interpretation costs”.
       
      The researchers also warned that the rise in the number of immigrants was leading to more people living in overcrowded, poor quality accommodation, described as “beds in sheds”.
      Some local authorities said that destitute migrants and asylum seekers were “disproportionately involved in crimes like shoplifting and disorderly behaviour”.
       
      Asylum seekers, refugees and low-skilled migrant workers were also found to cause tensions in communities because of anti-social behaviour.
       
      It found that low-skilled migrants had taken to drinking in the street because it was the “cultural norm” in their home country.
       
       

    65. Joybell says:

      @ Krackerman
      Did anyone actually say they saw no problem with “mass immigration”.  I must have missed that on this thread.
      I would like the Government in Scotland to be able to decide what suits us .  NOT what suits Telegraph readers. 
       
       
       
       
       
       

    66. scottish_skier says:

      I’m confused
      Between the issues of immigration and integration maybe? Immigrants to England are not allowed to be ‘English’ (contrasting Scotland and Wales where they are encouraged to and adopt Scottish/Welsh identities).
      http://ethnos.co.uk/what_is_britishness_CRE.pdf
      I’d venture to suggest that’s a large part of the problem and why segregation (i.e. ‘ghetto’ areas dominated by specific immigrant groups as common to many areas of England) develops; segregation commonly leading to tension between immigrants and the existing population. Gives rise to perceptions that groups are a burden as they are seen not as part of the community, but ‘outsiders’ which fuels ‘living off the system’ and all that shite. That and exclusion of these groups (e.g. when it comes to work etc) means they end up in poorer areas, hence more crime etc…
       

    67. The Rough Bounds says:

      @southernscot.
      Scots welcomed the world over? Really? We weren’t that welcome in Tasmania when the Scottish highlanders who had emigrated there hunted the Tasmanian Aborigines like wild dogs and almost totally wiped them out.
       
      They weren’t so chuffed to see us in Norway in 1612 when we were passing through their country on our way to fight as mercenaries for the Swedes against the Norwegians. It was called the Battle of Kringen…and we got gubbed.
      @caroline.
      When you are the ”only white face on the street” (your words, not mine) and you ”walked into a cafe”….(presumably not a youth hostel or University cafe)…”and only heard other languages”, then it will no longer be ‘your‘ country; it will be everyone else’s except yours.
      As for road signs in Arabic that several of you find so attractive, do you feel the same way about road signs in Gaelic? Possibly you would prefer Arabic? Or Urdu? Or Chinese, Romanian, Polish? Maybe any language at all as long as it isn’t Gaelic or Scots?
       
      @Archie. You never read my post thoroughly. My friend isn’t the English incomer (though I do have an English friend who has settled in Skye-she is learning Gaelic; are you?) it’s the one that teaches Gaelic.

    68. Krackerman says:

      Joybell – I suggest you read some of the posts on this thread then or just search the thread for “I’ve never understood this to be a problem.”

    69. Sneddon says:

      Roughbounds  I read your post and for the life of me I swear it’s the same nonsense I hear from the EDL and others. You might as well as written ‘I’m not racist but..’  A load of alarmist rubbish bordering on racism.  I’ve seen street signs in england in hebrew but so what.  No go areas get a life FFS.

    70. Patrick Roden says:

      @The rough Bounds.
       
      I lived in the West Midlands for 14 years so know all about the problems that can be caused by ‘out of control’, or ‘mass immigration’ as you call it.
      The facts are, that this didn’t just happen.
      the labour Party actively sought people from overseas to come to the UK with promises of riches, because the Labour party were pursuing a political strategy (leaked documents from within Labour)
       
      So, as long as a future independent Scottish Government put effective and sensible policies in place that welcomes people with skills to our country and does not dump them into voting ghetto’s, Like the Labour party did, then we will be fine. 

    71. Patrick Roden says:

      oh and they weren’t so chuffed to see us in 1612!? 🙁
       
      Are you a Rangers fan?

    72. ianbrotherhood says:

      @John King-
       
      re:
       
      ‘Have You Seen Her?’
       
      Nice one mister, just saw it there. Class act.

    73. john king says:

      ian brotherhood says
      ‘Have You Seen Her?’
       Nice one mister, just saw it there. Class act.”
      I truly would pay to see that 🙂
      hence my previous post about ongoing direct debits set up for an ongoing fund to support maybe even just a fiver a month, it would give instant access to funds for unexpected (opportunities) shall we say 🙂



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